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| Posted by: Species
- Leader [07724916] Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 11:53
Topic for the day - merits of limit hold em vs no-limit hold 'em.
They each most certainly involve different skillsets. No limit is obviously the Taj Mahal, the ultimate poker player's game. You have to have brass cajones, skill, luck, and perhaps most importantly the ability to read the players.
Positives: The psychology aspect triples, the bluff is fun, the money can be spectacular if you make your hand and trap someone else.
Negatives: YOU can get trapped and lose your ass.
Limit poker is more of a grind. Bluffing is very difficult as it can be relatively cheap (depending upon the limit of course) for someone to call down to the river and try to catch the miracle card.
Positives: Perhaps the better game for beginners due to lower monetary risk. Conversely, if you are a more seasoned player, you have the capability of taking advantage of beginners.
Negatives: Little bluffing, lower stakes create less of a feeling of "action". Bad beats - lower stakes can allow chasers to call to the river in the hopes of catching their card.
At least at THIS point in time I have found MY particular poker game. When I first started online, after putzing around the play money tables I started with NL Sit-N-Go tourneys. The thought was to get my feet wet with a known monetary risk, with the possibility of a decent reward if you won. I'm embarrassed to admit that I blew through $130.00 in the couple of months I played them.
So recently I put my "last" $70.00 in, thinking if I bust out I'm through with online poker as I tend to do better in live games. I lost my first tourney, but won some back a 2-table $15 tourney which lifted my spirits SOME. Then I said "Fxck it" to myself and threw $35 into the ring in a 6-player tourney. I won that one to bring me within $30.00 of total break even.
At that point I decided to try the game I've been playing live - $3/6 limit hold 'em. Each session I will buy in for $100, just like I do live. Well, long story short I have run that $170.00 I had up to $770 over the weekend. Perhaps it's just a long rush, and of course I'm not proclaiming myself as the next Stu Unger, but at this point in my poker life I'm very comfortable here and will continue to play and learn - and hopefully make a nice profit while I'm at it.
So.......your thoughts on no limit vs. limit, please. |
| | | 1 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 12:43
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Hey 85th year, I don't want to clog this thread with me and you B!tching at eachother, let bygons be bygons, If you are going to criticize my play, offer me some tips... thanks
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| | | 2 | On_the_85th_year
ID: 457421411
Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 12:57
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http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/?PHPSESSID=7bd1b77b49ebacae666c54e845f41d48#
This is a great tool to reinforce some bad beats you may have incurred and/or inflicted. Also, I try and read the monthly articles, some wonderful tips. Check out the TV section, showing when all the tournies are telvised.
MattG, it's over.
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| | | 3 | wiggs
ID: 2739159
Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 13:34
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Chicago, I just sent you an email.
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| | | 4 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 13:46
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wiggs...got it. I will reply this evening.
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| | | 5 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 16:45
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Limit vs No Limit. I now play 100% NL. When I started out I played a little of each but have always won more consistently at NL. I think it is important to find YOUR game and learn to beat that game consistently and then experiment with other limits/games.
To me Limit is a game of edges and always knowing proper pot odds. When I play limit it feels like a grind...not much creativity (especially low $ limit where everyone chases). In the past few months I have been considering playing some $10-$20 limit games, a player I play NL with has had some good success in those games. I think the higher limit games would more fit my style.
Things I prefer about NL vs Limit: When I have a made hand vs a drawing hand I can bet them off their draw or at least make it so expensive that they will lose a lot of money in the long run if they do call big bets. Probably my most profitable play in NL is making the chasers pay to see cards...people will make huge calls on flush draws. Yes...sometimes they do catch their flush/straight draws and it hurts when they do but in the long run I make a lot on people missing their draws.
The main thing with NL is it is easier to exploit poor players and force them to play poor...you can take more of their money at any one time.
Trapping loose aggressive players. In Limit you might get a check raise or two but in NL people often will bluff away their entire stack. Can be very profitable for someone who has the patience to wait for the right cards and then let the loose player bet into you and lose all of their money.
NL is better for the tight player. Probably the opposite view as what many people think. The beauty of NL is I can sit at .50-1.00 blind game with $100...basically costs me $1.50 to see 10 deals as long as you play tight and do not throw your money after a lot of chasing hands you really only need to win one or two big hands a night to make a lot of money. Can easily get involved in a couple $150+ hands in a night...when you win one that pays for a lot of blinds. In Limit the blinds generally cost more relative to the pot sizes so you need to win more hands to be profitable.
Bluffing...NL bluffs can be easier to pull off as people cannot just check-call to the river like they can in Limit since you can make huge bets. Then again bluffing is a lot more dangerous game in NL...really have to know when to let go.
The negative with NL is that you can obviously lose all of the money in front of you in one hand and there are times when you will be forced into decisions of calling/betting your entire stack. You must be good at these decisions as this where you make your money. All good no limit players will lose these all-in situations sometimes just have to win a lot more than you lose.
Good NL players must be able to shake off bad beats and shake off huge losses. Baseball reference...I compare a NL poker player to a Closer in baseball. Have to deal with the pressure and be able to forget the last hand. Another reason NL can be very profitable, I often see people take one bad beat and their entire game changes and they just start pissing away their money.
Patience is the key to NL ring games. Sometimes I will play for hours without getting any cards to really play for big $...it is very frustrating and it can make you play worse cards just to try and catch something (which can take you down a path of losing more money)...but if you are patient eventually you will get a big hand and all of a sudden you are profitable again. Other times (like last night for me) you get on a run of great cards and you are scooping pot after pot then you come out a big winner. When I am not getting any cards playing NL sometimes I will only lose a little or actually be up a few bucks just from bluffs or little pots...if you can make money or just lose a little when not getting cards you will make a lot of money in the long run. Basically if on your bad days you break even you are in great shape.
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| | | 6 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 19:00
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Going back to Norman on Friday for either a $3-$6 limit game or a $2-$10 spread limit game! UGHHH.. Oh well. Would love advice on Limit Hold 'Em since I don't play as often.
THK
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| | | 7 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 01:37
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I too started out with NL Hold'em, but have slowly been drifting to limit Omaha. (occasionally the H/L variant as well) Probably the easiest game I've found to play. I'm a rather tight player, and in Omaha the ability to sit back and wait for the top hand is very easy. The same is true of NL Omaha, except that it often costs more to see the flop or the turn. In a 1$/2$ limit game, assuming no raises its possible to see 8 out of the 9 cards you get for only 2$, or the same amount that it would cost to see just the river. One raise only makes it 150% of the river card. And if there are multiple raisers and you have nothing but non-nut draws, its easy to fold.
The reason I probably prefer limit games is exactly what TRS said: You must be good at these decisions (all-ins) as this where you make your money. I'm not too sure of myself in those situations. I'm a stat head and know the pot odds very well, but get pushed around alot in NL games. Getting better at that means more experience, and I do still play some NL Hold'em. (Its still one of my favorite games.) But the ease and simplicity of limit games makes it a favorite of mine for now.
The other thing is that alot of Omaha players are converted Hold'em dudes, and don't really understand how important it is to be holding the nut hand. Hearing a player complain about his queen high flush losing out to the Ace generally warrants a "sucker" tag in my notes... ;)
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| | | 8 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 01:54
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The other thing I forgot to mention is that NL is much, much better for ring games, whereas in tournies I much prefer limits. Tournaments are all about surviving longer then the guys next to you, and being a tight player and knowing when to fold (before the 2nd limit kicks in on the river!) generally means that I survive a long time. I'm still not too great at final tables, but I make alot of them.
In NL Hold'em tournies, its all too often that I'll be all-in with a 75% chance at winning, only to be busted out with a bad beat. In a ring game its no sweat, just add some more money and keep playing your game. It more then evens out in the long run for the smart players. In a tournament though, you're left to stew over the injustice of it all. ;) Which makes me hesitant to go to showdowns at all, even when I know I have to be the favorite.
----------------------------------------------
Which brings me to a rather interesting dilemma. Despite BEING a stat-head, I've never even taken one stats class. So perhaps someone with a stats degree could clarify something for me.
If a guy goes all-in 5 times with an 80% chance of winning each time, is he statistically expected to lose 1 of those times? On the surface it seems to make sense (1 in 5 chance of losing each time...) but I know their are compounding formulas used to calculate things like that. Besides, it just doesn't seem fair. ;)
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| | | 9 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 04:19
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Wow! Decided to play a NL Hold'em tourney for fun. Didn't think I'd get a hand right away that would prove my point so well, but here it is:
I'm two hours into a tourney with about 2/3rds of the field gone, I'm playing well and I get dealt K/6 of hearts. Guy below me has pocket tens (one heart, one diamond), but we all just limp into the flop. (3 other callers.) Flop comes K/J/J, two diamonds. Guy to my right opens with a 300$ bet. Maybe it was the beer, maybe it was the fact that the guy below me had gone all-in on every good hand he'd owned... but I felt he didn't have his jack. So I pushed him all in. The others all fold, he takes a while before calling. Now, you can argue that my bet was silly, (and when I sober up a bit I might agree) but its not the point at the moment. On_the_85th_year's link in post 2 shows me being an 84.6% favorite. Naturally he gets runner-runner diamonds and takes me out with a ridiculous flush.
Nope, we're not done. ;) That takes away about 2/3rds of my stack. Four hands later, sitting with a K/10 of spades, everyone folds to Mr. Lucky and me sitting in the blinds. He calls, and I decide to push what I have left in. Partly because I wanted some of my money back from this punk, but also because he wouldn't of called me in the BB unless he really didn't have much. I don't think he had folded a hand all night.
He calls right away (?) with his monster hand 8/9 of spades. Yes, thats a 65% favored to me. Yes, we all know by now that he caught a pair and pushed me out. Even gave me a 'learn to play poker!' taunt on my way out.
Now obviously, those are two tough beats. At a ring table, you'd probably take a 5 min break and get back to it. In this tourny though, I basically pissed away two hours with nothing to show for it, despite playing solid poker. Which has just re-inforced my decision to stay away from NL tournys.
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| | | 10 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 09:42
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R9...that is just the nature of tournaments...a lot of losing and then hopefully a big win rarely.
To win a multitable tournament you almost must get lucky. You do not necessarily have to win hands when you are behind but you have to get lucky that when you are a favorite and have your hands hold up without some "Mr. Lucky" catching his miracle outs. Tournaments can certainly be frustrating.
Comments on your play: The first hand where you lost a majority of your money...generally I would say it is not wise to push all-in on that board with your hand but...you had a good read and most importantly you were correct that you were way ahead in the hand. Nothing you can do when the turn/river comes miracle - miracle.
Here is where I have some criticism. You must let that hand go (forget about it). Seems like you tilted. You still had 1/3 your chips left, a successful tournament player now goes to work on rebuilding his stack. K-10 is not really a hand you want to go to war with preflop unless you are very shortstacked and will be blinded out of the game in the next time or two around the table. Against a player I judge as weak and I think I can outplay I really do not want to get in coin flip situations before the flop unless I have pocket AA/KK/QQ. I would rather wait until after a flop that makes a hand for me when I can be assurred I am even a bigger favorite.
In NL one of the most important skills is to be able to shake off those tough beats.
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| | | 11 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 10:03
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Odd night last night for me...first hand of the night I get dealt KK...I raise to $5 preflop...loose player I have played with a lot in the past reraises to $15. I know he could have anything from suited connectors on up and I know he will likely call any bet I make. I push all-in for $100. He calls with his AA and I am down $100 before my seat is even warm. I shake it off...I would make the same play against that player every time...I am up a lot more than I am down against him. Reload $100.
20 minutes or so later I have made about $40 back and get dealt A-10 in the small blind...limp in. Flop A-10-7...check...someone bets $5...everyone folds to me...I raise $10...he reraises to $15...I call. Turn 4...I bet $5...another reraise...I decide to push him all-in for another $40...he calls. River 4...he turns over K-4...for miracle miracle trip 4s. I can't believe that hand. The table is stunned with a lot of WTF comments. Takes me a few deep breaths before I recover.
I then got on a huge rush of good hands and get into a very aggressive mode. Back in the positive even after losing another $100 hand when my AA are cracked by set pocket 10s. Only play 2 hours (4 tables) and got involved in probably 8 all-in situations winning 5. Call it quits when things slow down...take a breath...add things up and I am up a decent amount. Just a strange night, while I am an aggressive player and do not mind getting involved in huge hands generally I do not get that many chances in 10 hours of play let alone 2 hours.
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| | | 12 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 10:09
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What would you do?
Hand from last night...I have JJ dealer position. Pot gets raised to $6 preflop...3 callers $20 in the pot. Flop comes all unders 8-5-2 rainbow. First player($50) bets $10...second player($180) raises to $20. What should I($170) do now?
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| | | 13 | On_the_85th_year
ID: 59615611
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 11:05
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Re: 12. It's extremely hard to answer, "what would you do" questions, per my earlier post there are infinity variables. And unless I'm sitting right there every hand, studying players & their tendencies then it's hard to tell you.
But the obvious answer would be to call or re-raise. This appears to be a limit game? How come you did not re-raise pre-flop. As you know JJ is the hardest hand to play in hold em. You have to eliminate weak aces with re-raises. Hope for a flop like this, and then pray no one made 2 pr or trips. The fact that it was raised pre-flops should eliminate 2 pr. but trips are a possibility. So I would probably re-raise in hopes of eliminating the initial raise and at the same time take the temperature of the re-raiser?
I'm guessing you took a bad beat here, if that's the case then evaluate your pre-flop thinking and next time try and eliminate players before the flopper.
Keep talking, what happened next?
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| | | 14 | On_the_85th_year
ID: 59615611
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 11:10
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RE: 9. My general rule of thumb. DO NOT over committ yourself in a tournament, unless you have the nuts, or a tremendous read, don't risk your entire tournament as you did above.
Chicago made some great points.
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| | | 15 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 12:32
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Wrote down some hands that I played last night...
10 Buy-in 18 player tourney... I'm at the final table 6 players left. I'm about average stack...
I'm delt 10 J off suit in Late position. Blinds are 100-200. Guy next to big blind is short stacked, raises to 400(he's been playing tight all night), Folds to me I call Small and big blind both fold. 2 Players...
Flop comes out JJA he checks... What should I have done?
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| | | 16 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 12:42
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85th...this was on a .50-1.00 NL table max $100 buyin. It was raised $6 from an early position player to me which is a large raise at these limits (6xBB) so I just called. Generally I like to play JJ for a set or an under flop.
You would think the all under flop was an ideal flop for JJ but with the decent size bet and then a reraise from someone who had me covered...my decision was FOLD...I had only committed $6 at that point and while I loved the under flop, with the bet and then a raise I did not feel very solid with my JJ. If it was only one player betting at me I would have reraised.
Of course the turn brought a J...which would have made me golden and would have scored me a big pot. The winner of the hand was the small stack and initial bettor who had pocket 10s. The player who raised after the flop had two overs. After the turn they both only bet small down to the river.
If I reraise after the flop I might take the pot down right there...once that 3rd Jack hits I would have raised whatever they bet and tried to get in a little bidding war.
Weak play?
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| | | 17 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 12:53
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Matt G...if I have the player covered, pushing him all-in and losing does not cripple my stack...I go all-in. Sounds like you had position so what kind of bet did he make at you after the flop? In tournament play and even in ring games when I make a monster flop generally I don't screw around with small stacks...I just push in and if they follow they follow. I do not like giving small stacks cheap cards.
I have to think after the flop you are probably good...likely against an AK or AQ.
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| | | 18 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 13:03
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After the flop he checked, me read on him was that he had AK, AQ or something like that...
When it came to me I knew I was pushing all in I just didn't want him to know I had the J... I stalled then I asked how much he had, like 1/5th of my stack and then I pushed all in... He sure enough had A 10 Next two cards were blanks and I took down a decent hand... So I was in 5th, 2 players from the money and I was about 3rd in money. #1 was way up and #2 was just above me...
I'm dealt KJ Suited in the hole, blinds still 100-200 and I'm big blind. folds around to small blind, he says, "what the hell?" and calls the big blind... he is #2 in chips. I call just to see the flop as this guy has played well all night and I think he is trying to make me feel confident.
Flop comes out K84 He bets $300 not even stalling. What do I do?
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| | | 19 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 13:26
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#18 Flop comes out K84 He bets $300 not even stalling. What do I do?
I do one of two moves...I quickly smooth call to see what he wants to do after the turn or I reraise 600 to see where he stands right now. If I do the smooth call play I likely raise after the turn...kind of a common play for big made hands. I want to represent a little bigger hand than I have as I hate playing with top pair crap kicker.
I would not call any all-in play at me...the quick small bet after the flop and the preflop "what the hell" really smell of a trap. Also the fact that you have a similar size stack to his and he still wants to play at you leads me to believe he has something worth playing.
I think there is a fair chance your Ks are good and you do not want to give them up unless he makes a strong play back at you.
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| | | 20 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 13:46
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(The tourney is NL and we each started with $3000 in chips, by now I have around $9000 and chip leader is up around $15000
Here is what I did, I reraised to $500, I had a good read on him and I was thinking, he's got something paired in the hole.... He called the extra $200 after waiting a minute or two.
Next card is a 10. I now have 2 pair, he checks... I bet $600... He calls right away...
Last card comes out it's another 8... He bets $400... I'm playing him now for having a K8 Suited or something, which is why he said what the hell, or did he do that to trap me with a painted pair?
what do i do?
I'm holding K10 suited
Board is K 8 4 10 8 Rainbow
I'm reading him as having either QQ,AA, or something like K8... He's playing this well, I've seen him play K8 Q9 etc, I've also seen him play low pairs... 44 55 etc
I'm in for $1300 already... this pot will put me over $10000 and well into second place... if I win.
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| | | 21 | On_the_85th_year
ID: 59615611
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 13:47
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#16, wow, so you had em? There is no way I fold there, not a chance. But I like the fact you are willing to fold, getting back to the point of not over committing.
I think my suggested re-raise would have done the trick, if he calls, guarantees he checks the turn. Then with your trips I would have checked the turn and set up his bet on the river. Which you would have then pounded him !! Cool hand though.
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| | | 22 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 14:33
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"Last card comes out it's another 8... He bets $400... I'm playing him now for having a K8 Suited or something, which is why he said what the hell, or did he do that to trap me with a painted pair?
what do i do?"
Personally I check and am either beat or pick up what is in the pot. That board is too dangerous to make a big bet into. You could value bet ~1000 and hope to get a call but I think there is a 50/50 chance he comes over the top and forces you to fold. I check and happily pick up the pot if I am in the lead and if he has me beat his slow play did not work.
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| | | 23 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 14:42
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85th...the main problem with that hand is facing a $10 bet and then a raise to $20 before it comes to my turn to bet. I could reraise to $30 but then if I am beat I give both players the opportunity to reraise back at me. I did not want to commit all of my money in that situation against two aggressive bets. I hated facing multiple players in that situation...I figured one of them for QQ/KK/AA or even a set. If the initial player makes the $10 bet and the other player folds or calls I likely raise.
I really do not regret folding that hand in that situation. There are better places to double up and win a big pot and only $6 on that hand is acceptable to me.
Now if I knew my set jack was coming on the turn it would have been a different story. ;-)
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| | | 24 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 14:49
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Well I can't check, he bet $400.. So my choices are call, raise, fold.
Like you said I'm already in for $1300, I'll still be #3 at the table if I lose this hand, but I won't be in command as I am right now. I decided not to raise and I'm already in for $1300 so I don't want to throw it away... The "what the hell?" was the clincher, I'm thinking he's got a nice set of paint and realized he had nothing but whats on the board plus that...
I called his $400 And flipped, sure enough he has QQ in the hole, so I take down another nice pot and Move into 2nd place at the table.
With a decent size stack in front of me, I sat back and waiting for Pocket As or Ks before I played again... I saw the flop 3 times, twice when I was big blind and once when I was small blind I have pockets 8s and wanted to try to make a set, but got pushed out when someone made an all in bet... I'll have to post the rest of the big hands later...
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| | | 25 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 14:55
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Here is a hand from a night or two ago I do regret. I played it very poorly.
.50-1.00 $100 max buy-in...I have ~$150.
Early position dealt AA. I bet $5 preflop...middle player raises $10...another caller...I reraise to $15 (stupid! I should have just pushed in at this point...I think I would have gotten a call.)...both players call. Flop comes Q-8-4...flush draw...I bet $25...middle player comes over the top with a $75 raise. I fold...everyone folds. I pretty much folded out of disgust for my preflop play...no idea what he had but i had him pegged as a pretty solid player. Could have been on a flush draw - could have set Qs - could have AQ flush draw - could have just been a bluff. I basically put myself in a poor position that allowed me to be outplayed. Probably a 60-40 chance I was still good after the flop...maybe should have just committed but felt beat so I folded.
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| | | 26 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 15:24
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Still continuing from last night, as I was folding hand after hand 2 other guys were eliminated and I was not in the money... I was Guarunteed $20 for third and I was sitting #2 in money right , not too far behind #1 but #3 was right on my ass as he put 2 guys out on consecutive all in calls... nice plays... This is one where I just get beat.
I'm dealt KK as the Dealer blinds are now $200-$400... I double the big blind and I get 1 caller by #3...
Flop comes out AK7 rainbow. He bets $500, pretty modest bet, just over the blinds, I've made my set but the ace worries me. But I don't have him pinned for pocket rockets, so I make the call...
Next Card is an 8 he checks, I'm think he was waiting on something, maybe he has AX and wanted to play being as there are only 3 of us... I put in a big bet of $3000...(Made a bad read here I think I should of put him all in, as it would of scared him away, I think $3000 was just enough for him to call. ) He does call...
Final card is an A...
AK78A on the board, I'm holding a KK so I have the full boat, I'm about ready to call anything...
He pushes all in.... I call (This will leave me with $2500)
Flips over A7 suited.
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| | | 27 | On_the_85th_year
ID: 59615611
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 16:05
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"I sat back and waiting for Pocket As or Ks before I played again” Sheeshh, you could be waiting a long time.
Why not study the table, smell out weakness and steal some blinds here and there. In your position that is quite easy to do. Sitting around and waiting is not my style, I'm more of a keep the pressure on style which is like Schilling when he says "I never waste a pitch” A lot guys get up 0-2 and waste a pitch, not Schill, not me at the table, keep the pressure on and the momentum rolling. fwiw ymmv
Disclaimer -- not saying I'm like the schilling of poker, hardly.
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| | | 28 | On_the_85th_year
ID: 59615611
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 16:10
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re: 26 If you come over the top of him after the flop a GOOD PLAYER folds A7. But from the sounds of it he calls anything. That's too bad, you had a monster, though I would have never just called the flop, this was your demise. Free cards KILL.
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| | | 29 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 16:18
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I think you were pretty much screwed with that hand once it was flopped. The mistake is not raising more preflop...at least go 3-4x the BB. Even then he may call with the A7suited.
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| | | 30 | MattG
ID: 307592621
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 21:36
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yeah that was my demise, I should of done more than double up, but with the odds I had with KK in the hole I wanted to keep him there... him catching the A on the river was luck, I tried to force him out with the 3000 bet, but it didnt work... too little too late...
Anyhow, I did make a recovery... I played it tough cause I was short stacked, I played J10 suited, 99 and QJ suited... I only have like 8000 in chips on these other 2 guys are about double my stack.
On the J10 I was in big blind, the little blind called so I re-raised to $1500 (blinds are now $250/500) I get him to call... FLop is J98 he checks I put in another $2000 he calls... Turn is J I push all in, he folds...
One the 9h9s I am dealer, I bet $2000 and get the chip leader to call. flop is 6s 10h 9s.. the 10 worries me, but when he checks I decide to push all in... This is about $10,000 only a third of his stack he calls, with A 10 spades, the next two are both blanks and I take down a decent pot...
On the Qj suited, I am small blind, I double the big blind and he calls, dealer folds.. flop gives me QJx I push in $5000 and he folds...
the rest of the hands(like 20 or so) are us stealing the blinds... The chip leader is knocking away at the 3rd place guy now, im not getting anything to play and I try to steal the blinds a few times and get called only to fold on the flop.
Finally he takes out the #3 guy and Im in 2nd, way down though. 2 hands later I'm dealt AK unsuited in early position. I'm the big bling, I through in $4000... as i figure it is early and Im figuring ill get too play a few more hands, blinds are now 500-1000 and he has called me on the big... after I raise, he calls... Flop is AQ7 Rainbow... He bets $5000 Im figuring, hmm wants to bluff or has an A... I raise to $7500 he calls, I hit my K on the turn, he checks, I push all in.. he calls, flips over QQ... river was a blank...
I played that hand badly, actually he out played me... He knew he had my beat with the set, I should of atleast doubled his bet instead of just 7500... but I finished 2nd and pockected another $50... I have much to learn, but If i keep getting lucky....
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| | | 31 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 23:22
|
RE: 2-
I like that thing! I can always calculate the numbers of outs I have remaining however I can't do the division in my head, lol.
THK
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| | | 32 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Tue, Aug 31, 2004, 23:53
|
I was just watching WSOP. Did you see that dude Kumar at the main table sitting next to Ferguson? From Los Gatos, CA -- I played against him in my 1st tournament in San Jose. Coooooool. I'm going down there again this month - might run into him.
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| | | 33 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 00:32
|
That's cool, how did you two do in the tourney?
THK
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| | | 34 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 09:24
|
That Kumar dude was on a WPT event too. Pretty sure it was the one at Foxwoods in season 2. I thought it was hilarious when Matusow thought his call was so unbelievable yet he was still a underdog.
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| | | 35 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 13:13
|
That was my first one where I finished 24th out of 74 (if memory serves). To be perfectly frank, Kumar was nice to me at my first table when I didn't know betting etiquette and wasn't pushing all of my money over the line in one motion. I honestly can't remember if I outlasted him in that tourney or not....
Could I have played this hand any differently? I'm Sirius68.
Table 'Irus' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: 10 S N E 1 ($48 in chips)
Seat 2: mateo$55 ($43 in chips)
Seat 3: plumber123 ($453 in chips)
Seat 4: Harves ($38 in chips)
Seat 5: hobbes34 ($16 in chips)
Seat 6: Sirius68 ($81 in chips)
Seat 8: headhunter ($120 in chips)
Seat 9: blueshark11 ($64 in chips)
Seat 10: allout22 ($118 in chips)
hobbes34: posts small blind $1
Sirius68: posts big blind $3
bryanfoxx: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sirius68 [Qd Jc]
headhunter: calls $3
blueshark11: folds
allout22: calls $3
10 S N E 1: folds
mateo$55: folds
plumber123: folds
Harves: folds
hobbes34: calls $2
Sirius68: checks
3 callers plus me the big blind come into the flop....
*** FLOP *** [7h 5c Qh]
hobbes34: checks
Sirius68: bets $3
headhunter: calls $3
allout22: folds
hobbes34: folds
Betting my top pair.
*** TURN *** [7h 5c Qh] [Qs]
Sirius68: bets $6
headhunter: raises $6 to $12
Sirius68: raises $6 to $18
headhunter: raises $6 to $24
Betting is capped
Sirius68: calls $6
Trip Queens now with jack kicker. When he reraised I worried about AQ or KQ.......not what was to come.
*** RIVER *** [7h 5c Qh Qs] [Ac]
Sirius68: checks
headhunter: bets $6
Sirius68: calls $6
*** SHOW DOWN ***
headhunter: shows [Ah Ad] (a full house, Aces full of Queens)
Sirius68: shows [Qd Jc] (three of a kind, Queens)
headhunter collected $75 from pot
What's even WORSE about this is the jackass didn't raise his Pocket Rockets until the TURN, when there were 2 Q's on the board. What did he think I was betting with after the flop?
What's even WORSE than that........the other ace was in play in another hand and the ace he caught was the only out in the deck :(
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| | | 36 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 13:29
|
nothing you could do about that...he played the aces about as poorly as you could possibly play aces and then got lucky.
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| | | 37 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 15:54
|
If you're playing a poker game and you look around the table and can't tell who the sucker is, it's you.
—Paul Newman
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| | | 38 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 16:24
|
"If you are a guy, you know you play too much poker if your wet dreams involve "nuts" instead of breasts."
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| | | 39 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Wed, Sep 01, 2004, 16:25
|
"How long does it take to learn poker, Dad?" "All your life, son."
David Spanier, "Total Poker" (1977)
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| | | 40 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Thu, Sep 02, 2004, 12:32
|
Ugly night last night...cashed out the night before and the "cashout curse" was in effect.
Twice last night I flopped high end fullhouses...once with QQ in my hand and a Q88 flop and then again with JJ and a J44 flop...both times to lose to flopped 4 of a kind. Could not believe it...I do not think that has ever happenned to me and then to have it happen twice in an hour. No need to say I lost my entire stack on both of those.
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| | | 41 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Thu, Sep 02, 2004, 14:24
|
tough break chicago, id hate to have that happen
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| | | 42 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 00:17
|
Gee........is this what happens when you consistently make good decisions?
During current Hold'em session you were dealt 137 hands and saw flop:
- 17 out 25 times while in big blind (68%)
- 11 out 25 times while in small blind (44%)
- 30 out 87 times in other positions (34%)
- a total of 58 out of 137 (42%)
Pots won at showdown - 16 of 21 (76%)
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| | | 43 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 09:51
|
Species...good job. The tables you are playing at must be very loose. 42% seems like a very high number of hands to see the flop unless you are at a shorthanded table or you just had a great run of cards, which is entirely possible in only 137 hands. Or actually looks like you probably fold a lot of hands after the flop. Typically over an extended period I only see ~24% of the flops but any one session I can easily be over 40%.
Anyway you are making great decisions if you are winning 76% of the time when you get to showdown. Typically my showdown percentage is ~60% but that includes all hands...with all-in big pots my percentage probably jumps in that 75% range.
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| | | 44 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 10:03
|
One of my favorite poker quotes from probably the best no-limit tournament player to ever play the game:
"See, in my world – the world of high-stakes gin and poker – we play for cold, hard cash. It’s all business, pure and simple. Anyone who thinks cardplaying is a ‘game’ – I’ll show you a loser. Money…M-O-N-E-Y. That’s how you measure success. One dollar at a time. One chip at a time. That’s how you keep score."
-Stuey Unger
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| | | 45 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 11:46
|
Juts thought I'd give an update...
I got an invite to a private poker tourney next Thursday, $10 buy-in NL 20 player tourney top 3 in the money... don't think I'm going to make it however...concert tickets and the female half won't let me skip out... BAH!
Got another call for a tourney on Saturday September 25th. It's $75 with $5 going to the house, NL I imagine, dunno what the blinds will start at or the amount of chips I'll get... This one should be interesting, the guy who called me to invite me I've beaten in head to head a bunch of times, I'm hoping to place in that one as $75 is a little steep for me not to walk away with something.
Good luck to all, its time for me to play some practice hands, yes im at work ;-)
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| | | 46 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 11:54
|
TRS - yes it was a run of great cards -- and also note that many hands I won didn't even make it to the showdown.....this was in fact a 6-handed table so perhaps that explains the percentages as well.
Later that night after having to take a break from the table the run of cards ended and I pi$$ed away $80 of the $200 I'd won :( I should know better than to leave a table on a run!
Do any of you hear find that to be true as well? If you're on a run of good cards - and I'm not talking a temporary rush, but a 1+ hour run of hitting lots of hands - that if you are forced to take a break from the table that when you return the mojo is totally gone?
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| | | 47 | Promize
ID: 19742168
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 14:41
|
It amazes me how many so-called "experts" there are on these websites.. It is almost sickening to have to play on this site at times... I, atleast, have never encountered all this crap talk at live tables at the casino's. I swear every little a$$ becomes a bigger a$$ when they can hid behind a computer.
The funniest thing is, they are usually the guys who have the smallest stack at the table, but the biggest mouth like they are some sort of pro... About to delete my accounts so I don't have to put up with these jerks all the time...
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| | | 48 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 15:06
|
Boy do I hear you on THAT, Promize. Some jerk gets a lucky river on a draw they NEVER should have been on in the first place.......then they yak it up and laugh at YOU when HE is the jackass. VERY frustrating and like you I feel like reaching through the monitor.
BUT, those a-holes are easy money when their luck runs out, so in the long run you can have the last laugh.....but I agree that is extremely frustrating.
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| | | 49 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 15:06
|
Promize...some of my favorite quotes for people who like to criticize others play:
"Isn't it funny how the loser of the hand always wants to teach the winner how to play?"
"Where can I buy your book"
"How many books on poker have you written"
"No free lessons"
My all-time favorite when someone is berating a terrible player:
"Please don't tap on the aquarium..."
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| | | 50 | Promize
ID: 19742168
Fri, Sep 03, 2004, 15:54
|
LOL
I always say,
"Go watch Bravo and ESPN some more, so you can become an even better pro that you are."
"You are definitely the next Moneymaker, keep up that great play of yours."
Anyways, I probably have seen maybe 1 of these type of jerks at the live tables... But I encounter them every single day at Partypoker.
OHHH and they are always playing 1/2 or 2/4 tables.. So you ask them, if they such pros why are you playing the noob tables? Their comments is always, "well I usually play the high stakes tables, but I am taking a break" ROFLOL Good grief, yah ok
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| | | 51 | Promize
ID: 19742168
Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 14:22
|
Haven't had a good hand in awhile, but thought I would post this one..
--------------------------------
***** Hand History for Game 912886823 *****
Table Table 14432 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Zambeani ( $183.4 )
Seat 3: ludden69 ( $392.85 )
Seat 5: daisy_girl81 ( $243.5 )
Seat 6: junior100 ( $100.45 )
Seat 10: gobie100 ( $183.71 )
Seat 8: promize ( $120.15 )
gobie100 posts small blind [$1].
Zambeani posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to promize [ 4d 4h ]
ludden69 calls [$2].
daisy_girl81 folds.
junior100 calls [$2].
promize calls [$2].
gobie100 calls [$1].
Zambeani checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 3h, 7c ]
gobie100 checks.
Zambeani bets [$2].
ludden69 folds.
junior100 folds.
promize calls [$2].
gobie100 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
Zambeani bets [$4].
promize raises [$8].
Zambeani raises [$8].
promize raises [$8].
Zambeani is all-In.
promize is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
promize shows [ 4d, 4h ] three of a kind, fours.
Zambeani shows [ 7s, Ac ] two pairs, aces and sevens.
Zambeani wins $63.25 from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and sevens.
promize wins $244.30 from the main pot with three of a kind, fours.
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| | | 52 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 22:39
|
The slowplay costs him big. I imagine you don't call if he plops down a decent sized bet?
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| | | 53 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 12:17
|
This guy must've pooped his pants with the straight flush hit......this is the first straight flush I've encounted either online or real play:
*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #668108613: Hold'em Limit ($3/$6) - 2004/09/05 -
03:23:36 (ET)
Table 'Henrietta' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: bbguy15 ($302.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Freelance88 ($81 in chips)
Seat 3: hardy7 ($52 in chips)
Seat 4: lvfxdwg ($236 in chips)
Seat 5: drew412 ($38 in chips)
Seat 6: goldollar ($51 in chips)
Seat 7: Sirius68 ($352.50 in chips)
Seat 8: SeaBassEX ($158 in chips)
Seat 9: LoveSet ($63 in chips)
Seat 10: RollinAces18 ($57 in chips)
RollinAces18: posts small blind $1
bbguy15: posts big blind $3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sirius68 [Kc Kd]
Freelance88: folds
hardy7: calls $3
lvfxdwg: folds
drew412: calls $3
goldollar: folds
Sirius68: raises $3 to $6
SeaBassEX: folds
LoveSet: folds
RollinAces18: calls $5
bbguy15: folds
hardy7: calls $3
drew412: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [3h 3c 5c]
RollinAces18: checks
hardy7: checks
drew412: checks
Sirius68: bets $3
RollinAces18: calls $3
hardy7: calls $3
drew412: folds
*** TURN *** [3h 3c 5c] [2c]
RollinAces18: checks
hardy7: bets $6
Sirius68: calls $6
RollinAces18: raises $6 to $12
hardy7: calls $6
Sirius68: calls $6
*** RIVER *** [3h 3c 5c 2c] [5h]
RollinAces18: bets $6
hardy7: folds
Sirius68: calls $6
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RollinAces18: shows [4c Ac] (a straight flush, Ace to Five)
Sirius68: shows [Kc Kd] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
RollinAces18 collected $81 from pot
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| | | 54 | Promize
ID: 19742168
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:40
|
Any of you guys use this program?
Thinking about getting it, might try it out atleast... 1000 free hands ... not sure about $55.00 full version, unless it is really good.
Poker Tracker
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| | | 55 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:29
|
I had to opt out of the $75 tourney on Sept 25th I'm pissed about that... But I got invited to a $25 impromtu tourney this past saturday in which I won.
$25 buy-in for $1,000 in chips $10 to prize pool $10 goes to fundraising and $5 for food booze...
I won $150 which wasn't bad. No real memorable hands I just kept winning the little ones and stealing the blinds. I played tight, whenever I had QQ KK or AA in the whole (A total of 5 times on the night) I put in over half my stack, I was never under $1000... I only got a caller once and he was all in... I had KK and caught another on the flop. He had 10 J suited clubs... He hit one club on the flop and another on the river, I got lucky there...he ended up with 2 pair...
I was never chip leader until late, when I got the #3 guy to fold... I was delt A10 off suit in early position and put in 4 times the blinds, blinds were 500 - 1000 then. didnt think he was going to call me as this would of left him with $100. On the flop I hit a pair of 10s with nothing else on the board checked to him he checked on the turn a K hit, I put him all in and he folded... I expected him to call all in. Never saw what he had.
I beat the other guy by stealing the blinds over and over again. He was so afraid to call me when I raised. Finally I limped in on K J suited and hit 2 over pairs on the flop(with a 6). I checked he checked(holding q9) turn was a 2 and river was a 8. I pushed all in on the turn and he called.. I guess hoping for a 10... seemed silly to call that for the win on a draw... anyhow I was happy...
my last 3 tourneys Ive finished 1st 2 times and second once... I'm getting VERY LUCKY.
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| | | 56 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:37
|
Folding with $100 left when there is $4500 in the pot has to be one of the dumbest plays I've ever heard of. Congrats on winning, too bad it was a charity fundraiser or else you would've won $300+.
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| | | 57 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 17:19
|
RE: 54-
If I played online every night I think that Poker Tracker would be a great assest to determine how you are playing. I have been playing a lot of live rings as oppossed to online and football takes up a lot of time so it wouldn't be too useful for me right now or I would try it out.
TRS-
Could save you a lot of time! ;-)
THK
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| | | 58 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 12732311
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 00:44
|
PoerTracker is a good program...it is pretty much the standard poker history program online players use...I think you can track opposing players also...figure out tendencies.
I have it on my list of things to do...to try it out, see if adds any value.
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| | | 59 | Eat Acid
ID: 281889
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 10:24
|
16--Unless I had a read that the first or second player completly and totally had me beat, I call the 20 and simply hope that the second player is looking for a free card. If player A goes over the top all in though, you simply can't call that much loot, even with 26 in.
I hate limit holdem. I play NL to blow off steam, its fun. I never play more than a 10$ tourney.
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| | | 60 | Promize
ID: 19742168
Fri, Sep 10, 2004, 18:48
|
Talk about panic, imagine how I felt when that last spade came out. The right ace would of killed me...
***** Hand History for Game 933958683 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Friday, September 10, 18:39:36 EDT 2004
Table Table 14457 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: FTPickle ( $166.3 )
Seat 3: promize ( $305.95 )
Seat 6: parisesq ( $21.4 )
Seat 8: tosuch ( $41.9 )
Seat 5: bdizzle44 ( $164.75 )
Seat 10: x666x ( $178.9 )
x666x posts small blind [$1].
FTPickle posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to promize [ Ks Kh ]
promize raises [$10].
bdizzle44 calls [$10].
parisesq folds.
tosuch folds.
x666x folds.
FTPickle folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 2s, Kc ]
promize is all-In.
bdizzle44 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7s ]
promize shows [ Ks, Kh ] a flush, king high.
bdizzle44 doesn't show [ Ad, Kd ] a pair of kings.
promize wins $141.20 from side pot #1 with a flush, king high.
promize wins $330.50 from the main pot with a flush, king high.
holy XXXX
weeee
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| | | 61 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Sat, Sep 11, 2004, 02:29
|
nice hand...nice stack for a $100 NL table...
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| | | 62 | Promize
ID: 19742168
Sat, Sep 11, 2004, 09:43
|
What the hell was this chick thinking call me ???
J9 suited and all in!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?
***** Hand History for Game 936228071 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Saturday, September 11, 09:37:39 EDT 2004
Table Table 14155 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Windshaker ( $100 )
Seat 3: Natrold ( $114.6 )
Seat 6: akatanga ( $104 )
Seat 10: ScanX ( $179.4 )
Seat 8: promize ( $111.75 )
Seat 5: darcygm ( $132.4 )
ScanX posts small blind [$1].
Windshaker posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to promize [ As Ac ]
Natrold folds.
darcygm calls [$2].
akatanga raises [$4].
promize is all-In.
ScanX folds.
Windshaker folds.
darcygm calls [$109.75].
akatanga folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, Qc, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
darcygm shows [ 9s, Js ] a pair of jacks.
promize shows [ As, Ac ] a pair of aces.
promize wins $230.50 from the main pot with a pair
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| | | 63 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Sat, Sep 11, 2004, 11:36
|
Went to another game in norman that I found on home poker pages and won $100 + the High Hand Jackpot. HHJ was only $40 but I knocked off the quad 10s with a 7 high straight flush with only an hour left! ;-)
THK
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| | | 64 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Sat, Sep 11, 2004, 11:57
|
#62 that is exactly why online poker is so profitable...terrible players. Don't even need to disguise you pocket rockets and still get a dumbass caller with J9. Funny thing is middle suited connectors have the best chance vs AA...still big dogs but have the best odds.
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| | | 65 | beastiemiked
ID: 438181111
Sat, Sep 11, 2004, 12:21
|
Yep, 56 suited has the best odds vs AA.
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| | | 66 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Sat, Sep 11, 2004, 16:19
|
56s was the hand I made the straight flush with! ;-) Although, I was in the BB and there was no pre flop raising.
THK
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| | | 67 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Sun, Sep 12, 2004, 15:26
|
Nice hand from last night…admittedly got a little lucky on the turn but was a nice action flop for everyone.
$1-$2 NL Max $200 Buy-in
I am dealt As Jh in early position.
Before flop I raise $6.
3 callers…$27 in the pot.
Flop: Ah Qh Js
Flopped 2 pair…
I check.
Player B bets $26
Player C calls
Player D folds
I call $26 (have a feeling I could be behind but make the call anyway…consider raising to see where I stand but figure I will make a decision after the turn and see how the betting goes)
Turn: Ah Qh Js Jc
I check.
Player B checks.
Player C bets $116
I raise all-in $166
Player B folds.
Player C calls.
River:Ah Qh Js Jc 5h
I scoop the $430 pot with the jacks and aces boat.
Player C had JQ for the jacks and queens boat.
Player B had AQ.
We all flopped 2 pair. Player B cried for about a half hour how lucky we were. I don’t think anyone played the hand that poorly just action cards with everyone making hands.
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| | | 68 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Sun, Sep 12, 2004, 15:57
|
Had a GREAT learning experience last night in a 33-player tournament - just buddies and acquaintances - friends of friends of friends type of thing.
NL hold 'em. $100 in chips. $40.00 buy in, only top 4 are paid. 4 tables. Got the blind structures and whatnot off of a "how to" website. Pretty decent organization for just guys putting it together in their office.
Cutting to the chase, we're down to 15 guys and consolidate down to 2 tables. Me and the guy next to me probably only have $150 or so in chips left and the blinds are up to $20-40. We lament our upcoming slow death. Slowly but surely, however, we build a bit more of a stack and continue to survive and make it to the final table.
At the final table, he and I are probably 7th and 8th out of 9 in terms of stack. We each survive an all in or 2 as the blinds go up to $50-100. I've now got the 5th/6th stack out of 8 and hoping to outlast a few for 4th and get my money back. Get dealt QQ and go all in. Guy calls with AK suited and I gulp. Board are all blanks and my queens stand. Probably 5 hands later I am in the small blind and get pocket cowboys. Guy to my right, who at one point probably was the chip leader by a margin of FOUR to 1, raises to twice the big blind. I raise to 4 times the big blind. Guy to my left, the big blind, calls! Then back to the guy to my right, he re-raises and I raise him all-in. Guy to my left folds, but what's sweet of course is his $400, a VERY significant stack of chips at this point, is already in the pot. I show my cowboys and the guy sinks in his chair turning over pocket jacks. No help to either on the board and I was in the drivers seat.
I used my stack aggressively from there, taking a lot of blinds and just bluffing guys out. Got burned once but not enough to cripple me. In the end it was me and the other short stack from the previous table heads up, with me a 3-to-1 chip lead. I nearly knocked him out but he got me on the turn and that left us nearly dead even in chips........then the fateful hand
I got K 10 and I'm the small blind. I raise to 4 times the big blind and he calls. Board is 8 7 2. I put another 400 in (realize we each have like 1600 total) and he calls. Turn is 8 - pair of 8's on the board and I put another 400 in, leaving me with like 200 left. He calls. River is a 4 and I go all in. He calls my bet and is left with 2 chips left in his stack. The crowd, which stood at 20 or so still, rose to their feet to see the big showdown. I throw my K 10 over for the pair of 8's on the board with a King. He turns over J 6 for jack high!?!? It was hilarious as everyone kind of expected someone to have trips or SOMETHING.......one guy says. "KING HIGH is going to take it? That's ALL?" and me and the guy kinda shrug our shoulders and laugh.
Now I suppose I played that poorly, but once in I was committed and wanted to play it strong like I had it from the beginning. No one ever saw my cards on a bluff/bully move, so nobody could TRULY say that I was ALWAYS bluffing/bullying with the big stack, hence I played it strong and stuck with it to the end. I suppose I deserved to lose that, but then again so did he.
Lessons I learned, all of which had been preached in books I've read/browsed in regards to tournament poker:
Protect your last chips to your last breath - both me and the 2nd place guy were very short stacked going down to 2 tables. You just never know what kind of run of cards you can get - don't give up and all-in with BS if you can help it, you just NEVER know.
When you have the hand, MAKE THEM PAY - before my solid run at the final table, the hands I did have the nuts/the lead I successfully squeezed enough chips out of the other player when I had the chance.
When you have the big stack, play it aggressive - the guy who once had a 4-to-1 chip lead over the field bemoaned his passive play with the big stack. He saw my aggressive play with the big stack and told me after the tourney that he blew it halfway through the tournament when he had such a huge lead that he could've done serious damage but resigned himself to playing tight.
Don't drink.......not even a drop- This tournament was held in Berkeley, CA. Well known as the home of Cal, as well as still to this day being a very hippie/liberal crowd - and that description matched a lot of my opponents last night. The herb was flowing as was the alchohol, and I am 100% convinced that I outlasted some of these guys because they got lit up on either (or both) and pi$$ed away their stacks.
I took home $535 for my $40 investment and naturally had a great time doing it. Everyone was gracious and congratulated me on very strong final table play. It was cool, I learned a lot and can't wait to go again.
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| | | 69 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Mon, Sep 13, 2004, 16:03
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Congrats Species. I wish I could find a tourney like that around here.
TRS, check you email.
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| | | 70 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Mon, Sep 13, 2004, 16:16
|
Congrats Species...
Some comments: Sounds like a reasonably successful first tournament (as far as running the tournament). Some suggestions...with such a low starting bankroll ($100) unless you are starting with like $1-$2 blinds it is going to turn into a crap shoot awfully quick as the blinds increase. You might think about turning the $100 into $1000 chips for everyone (can probably do it with the same chips...just assign different values)...and then start at $10-$20 blinds and then just double the blinds every X number of minutes. I hate tournaments where after a few times through the blinds you are already very low on chips even in the early rounds. You really do not want the blinds to force people into pots very early in a tournament...then it just gets down to a game of luck of who catches the cards when the blinds get huge...you want to be able to display some skill rather than just getting lucky (not saying you did...just something that a lot of first time tournaments siffer from).
BMD...will check my email this evening.
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| | | 71 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 01:15
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TRS - it was indeed $1-$2 blinds to start. I cut to the chase and skipped a lot of the early play in my review. It was like $1-2 for 30 mins, $2-4 for 30 mins, break, $4-8 for 45, $8-16, 10-20, 25-50 and 50-100 until the end.
Yes you are right, for a first tourney these guys had it pretty well together....they had gone to a 'how to' website and got the structure of the tourney. They did well, had all the rules written on a white board when people showed up and there were no disputes that weren't resolved fairly.
They spoke of doing another one in a month or two.
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| | | 72 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 23:28
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I like David Williams but MAN did he play that last hand all wrong or what?! What did he think Raymer had? Probably 2 overs I am guessing but couldn't he figure it out? 3.25 or whatever for him is damn solid though.
THK
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| | | 73 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 23:57
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Seemed like he was content with 2nd place (3.5 million)...just inexperience showing...you get deep in a hand and it is hard to escape especially when you make a big hand yourself. The board was ugly and the one thing that would have him beat was a pocket pair.
How about that POS Josh Ariah...what a class act...not.
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| | | 74 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Wed, Sep 15, 2004, 00:13
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Out of the 55,000+ players on Party Poker tonight, guess who sat down at my $25 buy in NL table. None other than rockafellaskank. When I left the table we had both doubled our initial buy ins without ever getting into a major confrontation with each other. From what I could tell I'm glad we never had to go deep into a pot togther.
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| | | 75 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Wed, Sep 15, 2004, 16:34
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Nice run down Species, congrats on taking home the cash.
I'm playing in a 10 player $10 buy-in tomorrow night... lots of inexperience there, especially when I'm the most experienced playing and I don't even consider myself a novice. I know the rules, but am still figuring out strategy.
I plan to play pretty tight, as it should be a loose table, I hope to finish in the money again, but with the guys I'm playing with I have to hit the cards... skill can only take me so far against them.
I don't plan on drinking much if at all, last time I played with these guys I didn't drink and it kept me keen on what was happening.
One thing I have to work on is when I get short stacked or if I take a big loss, I panic and get to emotional and start not reading right or playing tight... I get put on tilt pretty easily. Hopefully tomorrow I'm able to avoid this. Last time I played at this kind of tourney, I waited until the cards came my way until I played and it worked out well...
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| | | 76 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Sep 15, 2004, 16:36
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TRS-
Add Arieh to the list of new poker players I hate. Not sure if he comes in just about or just below Fischman.
THK
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| | | 77 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Wed, Sep 15, 2004, 22:51
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RE: 74
Yeah, bmd and I ended up 2 seats apart. Never went H2H, but I know we both managed to double up or a little better...
I double up by hitting 4J's on the turn VS 3Ks (pocket Ks) on the flop. Nice +$25. (I hate J's)
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| | | 78 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 00:49
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I was telling rfs last nite how much I hate the large multi tournies on Party. Well tonight I needed to blow off some steam so entered Party's 30+3 multi at 10 ET with 1600 other players. After a few lucky breaks and a few great calls(there are way too many fish bluffing all in after the flop with A high) I ended up with the chip lead with about 500 players left. After that I didn't end up getting too many hands and with about 280 players left I had about the same amount of chips I had with 500 players left. After the 2nd break Party stays true to form and cancels the tourney and for a little over 2 hours of work I get a cool $298.
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| | | 79 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 16:53
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bmd-
Why did they cancel the tourney?
THK
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| | | 80 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 17:32
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I have no clue why they cancelled it. After the 2nd break a message comes up saying the tourney is paused and after 15 minutes it ends up being cancelled. I was actually glad they cancelled it because 15 minutes before the break I was moved to table #7 with 4 players directly to my left with stacks around the size of mine, which was twice the tourney average at the time. So I would've been stuck at this table until there was only 70 players remaining trying to steal blinds off big stacks.
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| | | 81 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 22:30
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So how were payouts worked? I am confused why this is "true form" from PartyPoker.
THK
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| | | 82 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 23:19
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I should've clarified, Party staying true to form means that they aren't the most reliable in running tournies. I've been a part of a few that are cancelled midway through. 50% of the prize pool is divided between all the players left and the other 50% is divided by chip count. SO a big stack will recieve a much better portion of the prize money than a short stack.
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| | | 83 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 23:46
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wiggs and myself just got in a single table tournament together...i was first out he was second...lol
I got my pocket 66 cracked by pocket 22 and he got pocket QQ cracked by a lower pair...it was aturbo tournament...blinds increase every three hands...so had to play it aggressive.
back to the ring games for me...
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| | | 84 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 01:36
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This is why I get frustrated playing "tight":
PokerStars Game #697762608: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2004/09/17 -
01:21:20 (ET)
Table 'Cheruskia' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: zeebu ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 3: CoolGuy351 ($9.60 in chips)
Seat 4: word34 ($3 in chips)
Seat 5: SlickDickey ($2.35 in chips)
Seat 6: UBC-kid ($6.45 in chips)
Seat 7: Chuck42181 ($18.30 in chips)
Seat 8: holdem09 ($0.40 in chips)
Seat 9: PHellmuthIII ($2.70 in chips)
UBC-kid: posts small blind $0.05
Chuck42181: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chuck42181 [Qs Qd]
holdem09: folds
PHellmuthIII: raises $0.10 to $0.20
zeebu: raises $0.50 to $0.70
CoolGuy351: calls $0.70
word34: folds
SlickDickey: folds
UBC-kid: calls $0.65
Chuck42181: raises $4.30 to $5
PHellmuthIII: folds
zeebu: calls $3.20 and is all-in
CoolGuy351: calls $4.30
UBC-kid: calls $4.30
*** FLOP *** [7d 3c Tc]
UBC-kid: bets $1.45 and is all-in
Chuck42181: raises $11.85 to $13.30 and is all-in
CoolGuy351: folds
*** TURN *** [7d 3c Tc] [7h]
*** RIVER *** [7d 3c Tc 7h] [6d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
UBC-kid: shows [8c 9c] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Chuck42181: mucks hand
UBC-kid collected $5.90 from side pot
zeebu: mucks hand
UBC-kid collected $15.05 from main pot
word34 said, "nh"
zeebu said, "i have a high pocket pair"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $22 Main pot $15.05. Side pot $5.90. | Rake $1.05
Board [7d 3c Tc 7h 6d]
Seat 2: zeebu mucked [Js Jh] - two pair, Jacks and Sevens
Seat 3: CoolGuy351 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: word34 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: SlickDickey (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: UBC-kid (small blind) showed [8c 9c] and won ($20.95) with a straight,
Six to Ten
Seat 7: Chuck42181 (big blind) mucked [Qs Qd] - two pair, Queens and Sevens
Seat 8: holdem09 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: PHellmuthIII folded before Flop
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| | | 85 | Chuck
Sustainer
ID: 169212110
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 01:39
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BTW, I did hit 4-of-a-kind Aces today. It was in a sit-and-go, but still pretty sweet.
Does anyone know why PokerStars does not turn up the hands once all players are all-in on the cash tables? It's really annoying to not be able to see them at that point.
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| | | 86 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 10:09
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The site I play does not show all-ins either on the cash tables. One thing you might try is retrieving the hand history...where I play you can see mucked cards through the history. I don't use it often but sometimes it is nice to see what a person who loses is capable of calling with.
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| | | 87 | Promize
ID: 28839168
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 22:49
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I had a pretty successful tourney play day on Partypoker...
2 - 1st place finishes (1 being a 3 table tourney)
2 - 2nd place finishes
2 - 3rd place finishes
Never missed the money at all today..
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| | | 88 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Sat, Sep 18, 2004, 12:20
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Here's one of the downsides of playing at a loose table.
#Game No : 960988704
***** Hand History for Game 960988704 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Saturday, September 18, 12:09:19 EDT 2004
Table Table 11332 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: schmittyman1 ( $16.9 )
Seat 3: RTucker2004 ( $23 )
Seat 4: beastiemiked ( $23.5 )
Seat 5: bgriff70 ( $27.3 )
Seat 6: Flattyler83 ( $7.4 )
Seat 7: smokethis ( $16.4 )
Seat 8: jasson123 ( $21.85 )
Seat 9: Cavalon ( $46.83 )
Seat 10: TeresaTejas ( $28.5 )
Seat 1: dungaaa ( $25 )
Flattyler83 posts small blind [$0.25].
smokethis posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to beastiemiked [ Ad As ]
jasson123 raises [$1].
Cavalon folds.
TeresaTejas folds.
schmittyman1: interesting logic
schmittyman1 calls [$1].
RTucker2004 calls [$1].
beastiemiked raises [$4].
bgriff70 folds.
Flattyler83 folds.
smokethis folds.
jasson123 calls [$3].
schmittyman1 folds.
RTucker2004 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, Jh, 6h ]
jasson123 checks.
smokethis: griff whats wrong ? your gay lover leave you again?
RTucker2004 bets [$5].
beastiemiked is all-In.
jasson123 is all-In.
RTucker2004 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ]
schmittyman1: that last comment i dont really approve of...
RTucker2004 shows [ Ks, Ac ] a pair of kings.
beastiemiked shows [ Ad, As ] a pair of aces.
jasson123 shows [ Jd, Kd ] two pairs, kings and jacks.
beastiemiked wins $0.50 from side pot #2 with a pair of aces.
beastiemiked wins $2.30 from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
jasson123 wins $64.30 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and jacks.
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| | | 89 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Sat, Sep 18, 2004, 12:53
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TRS, I made my first deposit into Gaming club, screenname: beastiemiked, so be on the look out for the referral.
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| | | 90 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Sat, Sep 18, 2004, 16:33
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... and here is the upside of playing at a loose table. ;)
***** Hand History for Game 961695495 *****
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (NL) - Sat Sep 18 16:25:15 EDT 2004
Table Peach Blossom (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: BradNole83 ( $24.55)
Seat 2: joshinu ( $11.30)
Seat 3: abm2399 ( $64.35)
Seat 4: KSgee ( $4.75)
Seat 5: rkrchk ( $6.09)
Seat 6: skankboy ( $41.45)
Seat 7: cptmorgan009 ( $4.50)
Seat 8: royalnick ( $11)
Seat 9: RidgeMan ( $34.65)
Seat 10: Stogies ( $23.23)
Stogies posts small blind (0.25)
BradNole83 posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to skankboy [ Kh, Ah ]
joshinu calls (0.50)
abm2399 calls (0.50)
KSgee calls (0.50)
rkrchk could not respond in time.(disconnected)
rkrchk folds.
skankboy raises (1) to 1
cptmorgan009 raises (4.50) to 4.50
cptmorgan009 is all-In.
royalnick folds.
RidgeMan folds.
Stogies calls (4.25)
BradNole83 folds.
joshinu calls (4)
abm2399 folds.
KSgee calls (4)
skankboy raises (40.45) to 41.45
skankboy is all-In.
Stogies calls (18.73)
Stogies is all-In.
joshinu calls (6.80)
joshinu is all-In.
KSgee calls (0.25)
KSgee is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5s, Ad, 2h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 6d ]
Creating Main Pot with $23.50 with cptmorgan009
Creating Side Pot 1 with $1 with KSgee
Creating Side Pot 2 with $19.65 with joshinu
Creating Side Pot 3 with $23.86 with Stogies
Creating Side Pot 4 with $18.22 with skankboy
** Summary **
Main Pot: $23.50 | Side Pot 1: $1 | Side Pot 2: $19.65 | Side Pot 3: $23.86 | Side Pot 4: $18.22 | Rake: $0
Board: [ 5s Ad 2h 8h 6d ]
BradNole83 balance $24.05, lost $0.50 (folded)
joshinu balance $0, lost $11.30 [ Td Kd ] [ high card ace -- Ad,Kd,Td,8h,6d ]
abm2399 balance $63.85, lost $0.50 (folded)
KSgee balance $0, lost $4.75 [ 3c 3d ] [ a pair of threes -- Ad,8h,6d,3c,3d ]
rkrchk balance $6.09, didn't bet (folded)
skankboy balance $86.23, bet $41.45, collected $86.23, net +$44.78 [ Kh Ah ] [ a pair of aces with king kicker -- Ah,Ad,Kh,8h,6dKh(kicker card) ]
cptmorgan009 balance $0, lost $4.50 [ Tc As ] [ a pair of aces -- As,Ad,Tc,8h,6d ]
royalnick balance $11, didn't bet (folded)
RidgeMan balance $34.65, didn't bet (folded)
Stogies balance $0, lost $23.23 [ Qs Qc ] [ a pair of queens -- Ad,Qs,Qc,8h,6d ]
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| | | 91 | Promize
ID: 28839168
Sat, Sep 18, 2004, 23:10
|
You know, for the last week other then tourneys... I've been playing the lower limit tables for No Limit and 1/2 Texas Hold'em.. And other then missing the big all in pots, I seem to be making more cash at this lower end then I did the higher end.
Players seem to be more reckless and willing to chase the river with any possible trash known to man. If your patient and just wait for your good cards, just seems so easy to take money. Maybe I am just getting lucky, but have made about $300.00 this week on these tables.
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| | | 92 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Sun, Sep 19, 2004, 23:43
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promize when you say "lower limit tables for No Limit" what limits do you mean?
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| | | 93 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 19:23
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I think he means .5/1 and 1/2 from how I read it????
THK
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| | | 94 | Promize
ID: 28839168
Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 20:52
|
$25.00 to start the table...
1/2 bets
It is just amazing the stupidity of players you find on these tables. Again today, I have earned another 100.00. I am averaging about 100.00 every two days for the last two weeks, just being patient and playing good cards.
Calling on an all-in for $10.00 is much easier then calling someones bluff on a 152.00 all-in. If that makes since. You also minimize losses in my opinion.
Losing 10.00 compared to 150.00 cause joe bob caught some stupid card on the river... is much better!
Here is an example of a big pot today I got.
***** Hand History for Game 969467277 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Monday, September 20, 20:09:33 EDT 2004
Table Table 14088 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: akronzip ( $38.3 )
Seat 6: SUPPO1 ( $35.72 )
Seat 8: Doc__Holiday ( $23.5 )
Seat 10: promize ( $25.65 )
Seat 5: geeb00bs ( $26.75 )
Seat 3: joshdude11 ( $10 )
akronzip posts small blind [$0.25].
joshdude11 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to promize [ Jh Ac ]
geeb00bs calls [$0.5].
SUPPO1 raises [$1].
Doc__Holiday raises [$4].
promize calls [$4].
akronzip folds.
joshdude11 calls [$3.5].
geeb00bs calls [$3.5].
SUPPO1 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 5c, Jc ]
joshdude11 checks.
geeb00bs checks.
SUPPO1 bets [$6].
Doc__Holiday is all-In.
promize is all-In.
joshdude11 folds.
geeb00bs folds.
SUPPO1 calls [$15.65].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
SUPPO1 shows [ As, Qc ] a flush, king high.
Doc__Holiday doesn't show [ Ah, Js ] a flush, king high.
promize shows [ Jh, Ac ] a flush, ace high.
promize wins $4.30 from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high with ace kicker.
promize wins $76.75 from the main pot with a flush, ace high with ace kicker.
Saturday I got real lucky, some drunk lady got into a game... And I swear, went all-in every hand. Especially if she had an Ace of anything.. A2 A6 whatever.. So I just waited and waited till I had the big pocket cards. And bam bam, took all her money. She had about 100.00 when I sat down.
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| | | 95 | Promize
ID: 28839168
Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 21:06
|
And yet another example that JUST happen.
***** Hand History for Game 969672220 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Monday, September 20, 21:02:27 EDT 2004
Table Table 14088 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 10: promize ( $82.04 )
Seat 8: steveowensjr ( $62 )
Seat 5: Hollister37 ( $3.65 )
Seat 1: Sasquache ( $12 )
Seat 3: Myxa311 ( $25 )
Hollister37 posts small blind [$0.25].
steveowensjr posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to promize [ Ad 7c ]
promize calls [$0.5].
Sasquache folds.
Hollister37 folds.
steveowensjr checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, Ah, 7d ]
steveowensjr checks.
promize bets [$11].
steveowensjr calls [$11].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
steveowensjr checks.
promize is all-In.
steveowensjr: hummm
steveowensjr is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
promize: at this point, you have lost
steveowensjr shows [ Th, 7h ] two pairs, aces and sevens.
promize shows [ Ad, 7c ] a full house, Aces full of sevens.
promize wins $20.04 from side pot #1 with a full house, Aces full of sevens.
promize wins $122.25 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of sevens.
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| | | 96 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 21:09
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I guess it's better that you get it, promise, than the casinos, but this hold 'em craze is worse the lotto for taxing stupid people.
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| | | 97 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 22:44
|
I practically make a living at those exact tables. I typically play the $100 and $50 buyin tables. But honestly I have found terrible players at every level of play...maybe a higher percentage at the lower limits. It is not hard to win...as you say just wait for good hands and then bet them hard.
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| | |
| | | 99 | MadDOG
ID: 398182119
Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 23:00
|
Annie Duke wins $2,000,000 in the WSOP tournament of champions. Beats Phil Helmuth to win it.
2 million frickin dollars for this girl. Helmuth gets nothing. It was winner take all. Unbelievable.
Anybody watch it on ESPN?
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| | | 100 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 23:15
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Yea. Helmuth went crazy, LOL. Duke was in his head BIG TIME.
THK
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| | | 101 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 23:21
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she had great cards...I am sure old phil will feel he played great after he sees she was basically always in the lead against him and he made some great lay downs.
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| | | 102 | GoatLocker
ID: 128491910
Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 23:26
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She sure had the cards and played them great to get under Phil's skin.
It love to be around when he sees it.
Cliff
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| | | 103 | MadDOG
ID: 398182119
Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 23:44
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Chicago TRS, yea you're right Helmuth made some incredible laydowns toward the end under some serious pressure.
The guy is a helluva poker player.
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| | | 104 | APerfect10
ID: 476262718
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 00:23
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Just hit a huge pot myself ...
Texas Hold'em $25-$50 NL (real money), hand #342,530,473
Table Den Haag, 22 Sep 2004 12:18 AM
View hand for this table
Seat 1: tbob69 ($2,779 in chips)
Seat 3: bigtrain25 ($2,047 in chips)
Seat 4: Jason29a ($697 in chips)
Seat 5: texas tooter ($5,961 in chips)
Seat 6: TheMojo2004 [ 5C,9C ] ($2,425 in chips)
Seat 8: nicmoniker ($6,134 in chips)
Seat 9: book_cover ($1,013 in chips)
Seat 10: smutch ($4,269 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Jason29a posts blind ($12), texas tooter posts blind ($25).
PRE-FLOP
TheMojo2004 calls $25, nicmoniker bets $50, book_cover calls $50, smutch calls $50, tbob69 calls $50, bigtrain25 calls $50, Jason29a calls $38, texas tooter calls $25, TheMojo2004 calls $25.
FLOP [board cards JC,9H,KC ]
Jason29a checks, texas tooter checks, TheMojo2004 bets $250, nicmoniker calls $250, book_cover calls $250, smutch folds, tbob69 folds, bigtrain25 calls $250, Jason29a bets $647 and is all-in, texas tooter folds, TheMojo2004 calls $397, nicmoniker calls $397, book_cover calls $397, bigtrain25 calls $397.
TURN [board cards JC,9H,KC,5D ]
TheMojo2004 bets $500, nicmoniker calls $500, book_cover calls $316 and is all-in, bigtrain25 calls $500.
RIVER [board cards JC,9H,KC,5D,7C ]
TheMojo2004 checks, nicmoniker checks, bigtrain25 bets $850 and is all-in, TheMojo2004 calls $850, nicmoniker calls $850.
SHOWDOWN
bigtrain25 shows [ 10S,8D ]
Jason29a shows [ 10D,6C ]
TheMojo2004 shows [ 5C,9C ]
nicmoniker mucks cards [ 3H,JD ]
book_cover mucks cards [ 9D,9S ]
TheMojo2004 wins $3,102, TheMojo2004 wins $1,264, TheMojo2004 wins $3,632.
SUMMARY
Dealer: bigtrain25
Pot: $8,001 | Rake: $3
tbob69 loses $50
bigtrain25 loses $2,047
Jason29a loses $697
texas tooter loses $50
TheMojo2004 bets $2,047, collects $7,998, net $5,951
nicmoniker loses $2,047
book_cover loses $1,013
smutch loses $50
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| | | 105 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 00:45
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AP10...damn you are playing with the BIG boys...25-50 NL I don't have the guts to even think about playing at those limits.
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| | | 106 | culdeus
ID: 3847227
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 08:59
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Mind you I've never played a real poker hand in my life, but even not factoring in all the money I can't see how I'd stay in that pot even with two clubs? Isn't the logic there that some of the other guys calling had to have a couple of high cards thinking they'd make a straight? And even if you were going for the flush a 9 isn't that high a hole card?
I guess the guys with the 10 were praying for a Queen?
But nevertheless, wow! Congrats.
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| | | 107 | MadDOG
ID: 38817228
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 09:20
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AP10 won $5,591 on one hand of poker?
Damn, I gotta start learning how to play poker!!!
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| | | 108 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 10:03
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I dont understand how you call 50 dollars with a 5 and a 9 with everyone else in the hand. What ridiculous luck.
And i cant believe everyone called preflop to begin with, besides the 9s no one had a very good hand. Ive only played for fake money and thats how they play for fake money, is this really how they play for real money...big stakes nonetheless? If so where do i sign up.
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| | | 109 | APerfect10
ID: 476262718
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 12:35
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I'll call suited connectors for just the big blinid everytime. If someone raises I'll just fold, unless they are J-10 or above. The times you hit the straight or flush make up all teh times you end up folding. Just make sure you don't waste too much cash cashing cards after the flop. If you flop the flush-draw, odds are 50% you hit the flush, so that's pretty good.
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| | | 110 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 12:49
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i dont understand. Is that real money youre playing with, when you bet 500 dollars that was really 500 dollars? I mean i guess its all relative, but how can anyone bet 500 dollars with a flush draw. Then you get the flush, the card youve been waiting for and you only Check...call? If you were that unsure that someone else had a higher flush why are you betting a total of about 2000 REAL? dollars on a flush that you obviously dont think might win.
And theres no way its 50% youre gonna hit the flush. Its about 33% and you bet 850 after the turn when your chances are at best 25% if no one else at the table has a club. Then you get the flush and you check and then just call?
I cant believe that was for real money unless you are super rich or have a bad gambling problem.
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| | | 111 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 12:59
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The more i look at it the more it doesnt make sense. Nicmoniker lost over 2000 dollars with a pair of jacks with a flush draw an over card and straight draws left and right on board with 4 other people in the hand??
That really cant be real.
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| | | 112 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 13:14
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AP10 has demonstrated in the past he bets high stakes. Whether it's a problem or not, I can't judge. If he has the cash and plays smart, I don't see it as a problem.
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| | | 113 | wiggs
ID: 08572211
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 13:26
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i wish i had ap10's problems :)
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| | | 114 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 13:49
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Im saying he didnt play it smart, in fact i dont think any of them played it smart.
AP10 should not have been in the hand with 5 9 suited and a raise and 6 people calling in front of him. That is not smart playing. That he hit his flush is plain lucky. Suited cards make their flush before flop about 12% of time. When youre up against 6 other people who are all still in, there is no way you can stay in. That being said, fine he wanted to see a flop for 50 bucks more, when youre playing those stakes maybe its not that big of a deal to basically burn 50 dollars, but then he gets the draw with bottom pair and he says on this message board wrongly that he has a 50% chance to hit his flush. That everyone else is still in is baffling. AP10 thinks a pair of 9s and and flush draw is best even with an all in and everyone else still calling? i say thats awful playing. But then magically he hits the flush but he checks...i mean this is why youre still in the hand against all these people. You hit your card, so why just check and then when you have the chance to check raise you dont you just call. That makes absolutely no sense. He is basically saying that even after waging 2000 dollars and hitting his card he still thinks he might be beat! If you think you might be beat in that situation then why risk 2000 dollars. To me this indicates AP10 must lose tons of hands on draws and just happened to get lucky this time. Thats not smart playing, thats luck.
Saying all that congrats, i just cant believe thats for real money. Even if he likes to play for 2000 dollars on a draw, can you possibly assume all of these people are risking 2000 dollars on one hand, and some had nothing. Nicmoniker especially, thats embarrassing and he needs help. Think about it, he just lost 2000 dollars on one hand when he was so obviously beaten by 2 players who were in plus 2 more that were all in? and 1 of those all ins was a 6 10 hoping for an inside straight draw?? Whats that one thinking?
I dont see how people can possibly just piss away that much money. And AP10 comes out smelling like a rose but he just as easily couldve been nicmoniker, he just happened to get lucky.
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| | | 115 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 14:11
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I see terrible plays like that all of the time on lower limit tables...I don't have the bankroll to play at 25-50NL tables but I have played at 5-10NL tables and see terrible plays there too. I do not doubt the authenticity of this hand...this is exactly why online poker is so profitable for a good player.
Personally there is no way I play anyones hand in that above scenario except the set 9s...and he screwed up on the flop by not going all-in after he got raised.
Personally no way I chase a baby flush draw...when the flop hit 2 clubs AP10 had a 2 to 1 shot of getting his flush (50%) so with so many fish in the pot he had his pot odds if he thought his flush would be good. My problem would be with so many people calling I would be afraid I was drawing dead to a bigger flush. I have won a lot of big hands by people betting into me with baby flushes to my nut flush. I do not have a problem with the check on the river or even just the call as he only had a few more hundred to bet so a raise would have probably been a good move but would have only been worth a little more money but still money left on the table...and with the pot odds and making his hand he basically had to call anything on the river.
With the "fish schooling" effect of this hand...all the mediocre draws putting money in it gave people pot odds to make calls. The results certainly are great but if you get involved in hands like that very often I think in the long run it will cost you a lot of money...but then again everyones style is different and if you are playing at these limits you either have money to burn or are a successful player.
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| | | 116 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 14:34
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TRS, where are you getting your numbers? A flush draw has a 35% chance of hitting.
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| | | 117 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 14:40
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I don't see how that would be, unless you are taking into account spent cards and assuming less than a 25% chance of either of the next 2 cards to be of the same suit.
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| | | 118 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 15:18
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Never mind. I guess that's exactly what you are doing. Calculate based on what you see, and all you see is 4 suited and a non-suit. 9/47 for prob of first draw and 1-(38 choose 2)/47 choose 2) for a suit in either draw. I was thinking too simplistically. They aren't additive.
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| | | 119 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 15:26
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Exactly. It is about 2 to 1 to hit the flush so I'm guessing TRS just got mixed and typed in the wrong percentage.
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| | | 120 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 15:40
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You are correct...
A four-flush has 9 outs. It is 19% to make with one card to come and 35% to make with two cards to come. It is because of the spent cards.
I have always heard 2:1 4:1 but that does not take into account the spent cards.
Pot odds calculator
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| | | 121 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 15:47
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But AP10 also said his odds were at 50%. Bili said AP10 plays big stakes all the time and if he plays smart he doesnt have a problem. But he played this one awful and he doesnt even know the odds of hitting his hand will be.
I also think its awful to just call on the river. He had 400 more dollars, if he can call 100 with nothing but a 5 9, he can call with bottom pair and a draw with 6 people in, and he can make that same call on the turn for 500 dollars, certainly hes invested so much in the pot that he has to go all in when he hits his card. No?
If he has doubt his flush is good then why even stay in pre flop with a 9 high? Id understand if it was play money or 2-4. But like i said i guess its all relative, i just cant imagine playing at that stakes and being an awful player. Makes no sense.
If this is the norm for internet play, i really might consider playing. Why do you think the play is so bad? Why would someone blow 2K on a pair of jacks? Thats really scary IMO.
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| | | 122 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 16:17
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I haven't played hold 'em for money (other than for small change with friends a handful of times), and I don't know all the legitimate strategies that can be employed, but I would think they would be close to infinite. It may be that AP10 has been playing with these clowns for a while, and know they don't fold, even with crap.
You are right, TTW, that it appears to be bad poker, even to a novice such as myself, but it could be that the circumstances warranted the risk.
If you are truly worried about AP10, and want to start an intervention, feel free. It doesn't seem like that is what you are driving at, however.
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| | | 123 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 16:45
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Funny Bili,
I never said he should get help, just that he is either too rich to care about blowing 2000 dollars on one hand of poker or has a problem.
I would think that he needs to be careful though, but what can i do?
Youre right i dont know all the variables, but he still lucked out, and like i said congrats to him, thats a nice pot to win. I just cant believe the play and i even question its legitimacy because i cant believe all those guys would be so reckless with that much money.
Im also really wondering why people would play such high stakes if they arent good at poker. TRS said he sees that kind of play all the time. Thats just scary. Its gotta be psychology of just being on the computer playing with money off your credit card, it must feel so much less authentic than real cards that you dont care as much about losing the money.
I dont know though, but its definitely strange.
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| | | 124 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 16:55
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I can't really comment on AP10 specifically, but I did see a report a while back which interviewed a series of problem online gamblers, and that indeed was the case. It didn't seem real to them after a while, like they were playing with monopoly money, and they were in so deep already that stopping at that point would mean they were down 10s of thousands of dollars with no way to repay it. If you keep playing you at least have the illusion that it's only a temporary bad streak and you will be even again eventually. Bad news is things generally get worse. If you are down 30 grand, it's likely that you are a bad gambler and you will continue to lose.
I think with the increase in online gambling and cheap credit we are going to see spike in gambling-related bankruptcies down the road.
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| | | 125 | TaRhEElKiD @ work
ID: 398311716
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 17:04
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Wow, not much more I can say. Can't believe the hand was called preflop (even in blinds) and played that way after the flop as well. Congrats AP10 on a nice pot though.
THK
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| | | 126 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 17:28
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tastethewaste...online play is simply poor. If you are a decent player who can properly limit your hand selection I can almost guarantee you will make decent money on the NL tables. There are certainly good players but there are also a lot of truly awful players. You really do not even have to be very creative...just play tight, wait for good cards and then be very aggressive. Also must have enough self control (ability to forget about the hand and not tilt) for the hands where people make terrible calls and get their miracle cards and beat you.
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| | | 127 | culdeus
Leader
ID: 43105818
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 17:41
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FWIW I printed out the log and handed it to my boss, a live game regular around town and he agreed that the 9s underplayed the pre-flop and at worst he should have chased everyone off on the flop and been happy about it.
I know plenty o' people who used to gamble ten dimes every week on NCAA and NFL games but had no money to speak of otherwise, but they wouldn't step foot in an online casino. Now those guys are hammering these poker sites.
If I could afford playing 2k a hand I'd just fly to Vegas each weekend, sheesh they'll put you up for that sort of action.
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| | | 128 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 18:53
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what's "on the button"?
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| | | 129 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 19:20
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dealer button
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| | | 130 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 19:21
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I.e you are just to the right of the blinds?
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| | | 131 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 19:22
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correct
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| | | 132 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 19:23
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Thanks.
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| | | 133 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 19:24
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button is...last to act...dealer...best position in hold'em...you act right before the blinds preflop...last to act after the flop...
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| | | 134 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 23:01
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here is another example of just pathetically bad play:
$2-$4NL max $400 buyin
I am in the small blind and get dealt QQ...early position player raises $24 preflop...everyone folds to me...I reraise to $44...he calls.
FLOP: Q92 rainbow think about betting but perfect place for a slow play...check. He bets $40...smooth call.
TURN: 9 check...he bets $80...I raise him all-in for $88 more. calls.
RIVER: 9 I show the full house queens and nines. He shows A-10 for nothing.
I scoop $510...
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| | | 135 | APerfect10
ID: 476262718
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 01:33
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Feel free to rip this playing a part too :
No-limit Texas Hold'em $500+$50 (real money), hand #344,599,994
Clovis Single Table Tournament, 23 Sep 2004 01:27 AM
View hand for this table
Seat 2: ooahduece ($2,090 in chips)
Seat 6: Maxbaby ($5,185 in chips)
Seat 7: Kevroy ($4,170 in chips)
Seat 9: camps28 ($2,490 in chips)
Seat 10: TheMojo2004 [ QC,QH ] ($1,065 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
camps28 posts blind ($25), TheMojo2004 posts blind ($50).
PRE-FLOP
ooahduece folds, Maxbaby calls $50, Kevroy calls $50, camps28 folds, TheMojo2004 bets $50, Maxbaby calls $50, Kevroy calls $50.
FLOP [board cards KH,2H,3S ]
TheMojo2004 checks, Maxbaby checks, Kevroy checks.
TURN [board cards KH,2H,3S,QS ]
TheMojo2004 bets $250, Maxbaby calls $250, Kevroy folds.
RIVER [board cards KH,2H,3S,QS,9D ]
TheMojo2004 bets $715 and is all-in, Maxbaby calls $715.
SHOWDOWN
TheMojo2004 shows [ QC,QH ]
Maxbaby shows [ 2C,5C ]
TheMojo2004 wins $2,255.
SUMMARY
Dealer: Kevroy
Pot: $2,255 | Rake: $0
ooahduece loses $0
Maxbaby loses $1,065
Kevroy loses $100
camps28 loses $25
TheMojo2004 bets $1,065, collects $2,255, net $1,190
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| | | 136 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 09:24
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Well like i asked before is that real money? This looks like a tournament to me. The guy who lost had the chip lead and maybe was feeling lucky, but if thats actual dollars then that is scary. Its scary anyway to see people betting like that, he had no straight draw or flush draw, he really only had a pair of 2s and of course there are 4 over cards on board, all you have to do is have one of those and hes toast. How he called that is beyond me. He shouldve taken that money and given it to charity if he was just gonna piss it away.
AP10, youve posted these 2 hands that youve won a lot of money...do you also lose a ton of money at these tables. I imagine you do seeing that you played that 5 9 for so much money, but i would think like TRS said, if you just play tight and wait for your pocket queens you can really win a lot of money, no? Why take the chance on a draw if you can sucker them when you know youve got the best hand?
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| | | 137 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 09:37
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This looks lie a $500 buy in "sit and go" or multi-table tournament.
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| | | 138 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 10:21
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That is a fine tournament play in my opinion. Especially when you are the short stack and are really looking to double up with that hand or bust. If I thought I would definitely get a caller I would probably go all-in preflop in that situation.
On a cash table I would raise a little more preflop (3-4x big blind) and would make a play at the pot after the flop.
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| | | 139 | Tastethewaste
ID: 22841815
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 10:29
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i thought AP 10s play was fine, couldve went bigger pre flop with Queens, but im just shocked the guy kept calling with nothing. Even if hes the big stack and wants to see if he can get trips there is no excuse for him calling 715 dollars with a pair of 2s with the board thats out there.
I have no problem with AP10s play on this, i cant believe the other guys play.
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| | | 140 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 14:20
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Well y'all got me curious, so I popped in to a local smoke-filled sty called Goldie's, where I have played a bit of blackjack in the past. They replaced their pool tables with 4 hold 'em tables (3 3-6 and 1 4-8 for the "big boys") about a year ago, and they have become fairly popular. I had to wait 10 minutes or so before they could seat me, and this was closing in on midnight on a Wednesday.
Anyway, I was a novice, and it showed. Struggled to keep my cards on the table yet not show my neighbor, had to be reminded of the blinds, and at what point the bet went from $3 to $6. Ironically, I think my obvious ignorance helped me. I played a little, read a little more, and understand the rules, odds basic strategy. I wasn't making stupid mistakes. A loudmouth drinking hennessey who kept claiming he played hold 'em professionally starting berating me for not knowing what I was doing, which was true, etiquette-wise with chips and cards and such. I just smiled and didn't respond. Of course, when I drew into a few good hands, they all thought I was either bluffing or didn't know what I was doing raising and re-raising. I drew a straight, trip aces and a full house, winning decent pots right off the bat, because the loudmouth and his friends refused to fold to the novice. After those hands, I established myself a bit, and was able to semi-bluff a couple of smaller hands, and get out of there 90 bucks richer in 45 minutes of play. Most of these guys and been there hours and hours, and I could tell they were pissed.
I was so overwhelmed by just trying to get the etiquette right, that I had a hard time properly considering odds, and certainly couldn't adequately study the other players except the loudmouth, who was extremely easy to read. It appeared there were a few decent players at the table, but overall I don't think the quality of play was extraordinary. Maybe the better players play on the 4-8 table, but I feel like with a bit of experience to where I am comfortable and the basics are instinctual, I could perhaps hold my own and win consistently there. This first time though, it was definitely harder to juggle all the tasks and stay focused than I thought it would be, and I think I got a bit lucky.
I suppose online it would be a bit easier to stay cool, but that just doesn't seem like very much fun to me. In person was exhilirating if a bit nerve-wracking, and that's probably the only way I am going to play.
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| | | 141 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 19:58
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Ran into a poker book in a used bookstore this afternoon written in 1978, that had a chapter in it entitled "Game of the Future" or something like that.
You guessed it - hold 'em.
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| | | 142 | ukula
ID: 148272412
Fri, Sep 24, 2004, 16:57
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These poker threads are interesting in that the game is profitable with a certain skill level unlike typical casino games where the odds are always stacked against you. I have to admit that I know virtually nothing about poker except the extreme basics and what I see on TV. I do, however, have the ability to analyze probabilities well and remain calm under pressure. Given my current personal situation I can see possibly playing online for an hour or so a few times a week late at night(once I reach my desired skill level). Two friends of mine play poker every Sunday with retired dentists/doctors (in their 80's and 90's) who are just glad to be out/alive. I've been told these guys won't fold on anything and my friends make about $200-300 every Sunday just being very patient and only playing the good hands. So is that the way to make consistent money online, waiting for the good hands and then play aggressively? How much do you make per hour?
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| | | 143 | ukula
ID: 148272412
Fri, Sep 24, 2004, 17:01
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Also, is there a software program that would estimate your probability of winning the hand based solely on your hole cards, any cards shown on table (flop, turn, river) and number of players remaining in the hand? It seems to me that this type of program would allow you to grind out a consistant profit much like a bookie.
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| | | 144 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 566152116
Fri, Sep 24, 2004, 17:39
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ukula...I think you are right on when you talk about low limit online poker....anything under 3-6 Limit and 1-2 NL. The games are not hard to beat consistently if you just simply wait for good cards/flops and then play aggressively. There are a lot of very poor players. It is very true that good poker players can consistently win...many people make a living playing poker. Then again for every consistent winner there are probably two consistent losers.
Personally I think the easy money is in the NL games as you can exploit the poor players easier. In limit it is just too easy for people to chase and catch cards...I like no limit because if someone is going to chase on me I am going to make them pay.
There is certainly a learning curve. You must be able to read the board quickly and understand what all is possible and what someone may be chasing when they call your big bets. You really need to understand poker theory...I would recommend the book "The Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky. The book is not going to tell you what cards to play but will help build the fundamental knowledge of what you should be thinking about when betting and playing poker.
I basically started playing seriously in January...my first month I made $12 per hour playing. I wasn't totally clueless going in as I had played in a few home games and even in Vegas but I was not a good player until I started reading and understanding the game at a different level. My father is also an excellent player so maybe I have a little of it born in me. This month I am making $60 per hour when I play...I think this month is a little bit of an exception as I have been really getting great cards for a few weeks now and basically winning almost every big all-in situation. I have been on an incredible run and have already doubled my best month. At this point I feel quite comfortable that I can average $30 an hour without much trouble.
I have actually staked two friends and taught them to play from basically scratch and both are now winning players. To me there is no secret to winning except playing a tight aggressive game at first. As you get experience you can try more advanced plays and make your own style.
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