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| Posted by: Razor
- [581046117] Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 00:33
link
Apparently, he's using the "but I didn't know what it was" argument. Hmmm...the guy supposedly is control of everything around him, takes immaculate care of his body, but doesn't know what he's putting into it on a regular basis? Meanwhile, he's getting much bigger and stronger, his bat speed has increased drastically and his numbers are out of this world and he still doesn't question what Anderson is giving him? That is a total fabrication. |
| | | 1 | TB
Leader
ID: 031811922
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 00:53
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Did they take the page down?
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| | | 2 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:03
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It looks that way. I read it before they did though. It basically indicated that Bonds' testimony was that he took 'the clear' and 'the cream' without knowing what it was. Even if that's true (which I have a hard time believing, but fine) it proves Bonds' records are trash. Its been proven that the 'clear' and 'cream' are steroids that Giambi and Sheffield took. So Bonds was on steroids, even if it was unwittingly. Really unsurprising given how he looked.
The ridiculously huge pile of circumstancial evidence against Bonds is starting (albeit slowly) to be turned into facts as the testimony given is leaked to the public. By this time next year, as Bonds is chasing down Aaron, I'm sure the debates are going to turn ugly. Imagine what it's going to be like once the trial finally starts!
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| | | 3 | Razor
ID: 581046117
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:03
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Apparently. The can't stop me now, though In the span of a day, this has turned into the worst sports scandal in history. To the chagrin of many, lunatics like myself have been accusing Bonds for over three years now. Even after all the stuff has come out over the past year regarding BALCO, nothing hit the mainstream like the Giambi story. And now this. I think Bud will end up having to do something. Too many people are going to be ticked off after this.
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| | | 4 | Razor
ID: 581046117
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:06
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If Bonds had any class, he'd retire right now and leave Babe and Aaron's records intact. If Bud had any spine, he'd cook up a rule to ban these turkeys, get their records stricken from the books or so something. Too bad Bonds is to class as Bud is to spine. Neither has any.
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| | | 5 | Rendle
Donor
ID: 014815714
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:14
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Any guesses to who else is on steroids? Sosa, Mcguire, Sheffield, Brady Anderson, Luis Gonzalez, maybe Jim Thome and Albert Belle are some guys that I wouldn't be surprised if it was confirmed that they were taking steroids.
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| | | 6 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:14
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Victor Conte comes clean to ESPN The Magazine, and ABC's 20/20.
Only a passing reference to Bonds and baseball, but provides a pretty interesting insight into the underground performance drug world. According to Conte, the USADA cleared Tim Montgomery for the Olympics despite him being loaded full of BALCO products. Given that baseball's testing is supposedly a complete joke compared to Olympic standards, and that Conte now contends that a new product called "The Clear III" is making the rounds in sports, what chance is there of actually catching any of these clows? What a mess...
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| | | 7 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:14
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Its on ESPN right now, and has been since the start of the 1am SC.
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| | | 8 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:15
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Thome's always been big. I don't think he's on it. Brady Anderson is interesting--one huge year, but nothing before or since.
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| | | 9 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:15
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err, clowns... ;)
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| | | 10 | Razor
ID: 581046117
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:31
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Thome's a good suspect, I think.
He wasn't always so big. Back in the early 90's, that's exactly what sluggers used to look like. He reminds me a lot of Giambi, actually.
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| | | 11 | Rendle
Donor
ID: 014815714
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 01:39
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Yeah, of all the guys I listed I think Thome is the least likely. I've watched him every year he's been in Cleveland and thete was definitely a noticable difference. The card is a good example. I agree that Bonds should leave baseball now and not continue to pursue the home run records which would be a travesty.
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| | | 12 | Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 02:02
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Another day, another Barry Bonds hater diatribe from Razor. SNORE! Yeah, the White Sox throwing the World Series isn't half the scandal of this doozie, Razor.
Can anyone provide a link to a double blind study proving that "the clear" or "the cream" are harmful? A Lyle Alzado antecode won't due.
I wonder what hats Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi will wear when they get ... sworn in as the Governors of California and Minnesota?
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| | | 13 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 02:37
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Thome is, what, 19 in that photo? Like many men, he was still growing.
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| | | 14 | Twarpy
Leader
ID: 386242821
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 02:40
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Wow ESPN the last webpage to have nothing up on Bonds, bluehen must be working tonite.
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| | | 15 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 144192417
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 06:39
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Rendle: It would not shock me at all if Sosa was on the juice. I don't think he is anymore given the heat on the issue last season and his shrinking numbers.
I'm an avid Cubs fan and I've also been listening to reports on The Score Sportsradio 670AM in Chicago about how Sosa's hat size has increased by two full sizes and how he's gained 40 some odd pounds since entering the league with Texas.
I would be surprised if Thome were on something and disappointed as he's one of my favorite players to watch. I don't have any evidence to back it up just a gut feeling.
Any of them that get caught using the juice should receive the Pete Rose Treatment and receive a lifetime ban and become ineligible for the HOF.
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| | | 16 | Tree
ID: 510231619
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 06:47
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from Razor, in the first post - Apparently, he's using the "but I didn't know what it was" argument. Hmmm...the guy supposedly is control of everything around him, takes immaculate care of his body, but doesn't know what he's putting into it on a regular basis?
sorry, but you're wrong. in the article that does work (not yours, since the link is dead as quick as you posted it), Bonds very clearly states he thought he knew what he was using.
let me quote from the linked article that does work:
Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle.
it's not so much that he didn't know what they were, he was told what they were.
if his personal trainer lied to him, then that's not Bonds fault.
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| | | 17 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4494554
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 06:57
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And since Bonds said it, it must be true!!
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| | | 18 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 1584348
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:02
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The one argument I have to counter Bond's claim that he did not know that what he was taking was a banned substance and non-steroid, not to mention possibly harmful and illegal...
- How did he receive these products. Yes, they came from a 'labaratory', but were they in normal packaging with company names and labels, or in unmarked plastic bags. Did the label have the FDA required information regarding similar ointments and cremes. Even if a private lab is producing this product, if they are selling it to clients, you would think they still have to follow those guidelines.
- How much money was he paying for these products? How were these payments made (cash, no invoice etc could be red flags).
- Why did the people providing him with these products require secrecy?
- Regarding drugs he was taking like Clomid (Female fertility drug). Did he have a perscription?
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| | | 20 | Khahan
ID: 2884979
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:19
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Chill out some. I noticed nobody is calling for Giambi to be banned from baseball in the Giambi thread. Its nice an convenient to mention here, in passing, that oh yeah, all steroid users should be banned.
Face it. Many of you simply hate Bonds. That's fine. But hold him to the same standards as everybody else. Personally, I think teams should be able to void contracts of anybody who is found to be using illegal steroids. This is in all guaranteed contracts:
# The player must agree to keep himself in first-class physical condition and adhere to all training rules set by the club.
# The use or misuse of illegal or prescription drugs can be interpreted to mean the player is not keeping himself in first-class physical condition.
Secondly, I know of no rule that states a lifetime ban should be implemented for steroid use. Whatever the rules state, is what should be done. I agree, this looks bad and will leave a stain for a lot of people. Bud needs to immediate and decisive action. But he cannot take any more action than the current rules let him. Nobody has been crying for a ban on Sheffield or Giambi. You're only crying foul at Bonds, which is pretty pathetic. You take his act and vent all your hatred through it cause its him, but let the guys you like slide.
Ok, stepping off my soapbox now. Sorry, but it just gets extremely tiresome reading the same, "Burn the witch!" posts again and again. Especially when their only fuel is a personal dislike.
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| | | 21 | smallwhirled
ID: 471111216
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:21
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Nice little Bonds slideshow/gallery can be found here .
Look at September of 1999, then April of 2000
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| | | 22 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:23
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Thats a nice post and all, Khahan, but who is calling for Bonds to be banned from MLB?
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| | | 23 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:30
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Ah, it wouldn't be a steroid thread if Seattle Zen didn't chime in and represent the extreme minority of baseball fans who don't care what lengths they go to gain an advantage. Even after a confession by Bonds, he's still in denial. At least he's consistent.
Anyway, I find Bonds' alibi ludicrous. Did he not notice when his hat size grew two sizes? When he put on 25 pounds of muscle? When his numbers jumped into the stratosphere? When whatever side effects come with taken a cocktail of performance enhancing drugs messed with his body (testicular shrinkage, acne, mood swings, etc)? Bonds and Sheffield needed a fall guy. Does anyone really, truly believe that Bonds, a man who has a personal chef to do his cooking and a swarm of trainers and nutrionists around, didn't know that he was taking steroids? Bonds controlled everything around him. I'm having a hard time finding a motive for Greg Anderson to trick his boss into taking steroids. I'm having even a harder time believing that Giambi knew what Bonds was taking but Bonds himself did not.
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| | | 24 | Toral
ID: 22731114
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:31
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- How much money was he paying for these products? How were these payments made (cash, no invoice etc could be red flags).
Just speculating on how this might have worked, trying what people doing this might do for self-protection.
Remember, the drugs came with a "personal trainer", guy even accompanied to Japan. So, set it up so that Bonds is invoiced for "services of a personal trainer" {which would include the nutritional supplements, etc., provided). No mention of details as to the nature of the supplements provided.
That's the way I would do it, were I a scam artist ;)
Toral
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| | | 25 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:37
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I'm having a hard time finding a motive for Greg Anderson to trick his boss into taking steroids.
Well thats silly. Of course there is a motive for a businessman to illegally enhance the effectiveness of his goods or services without telling his clients. That's not to say that I think Bonds or Sheffield didn't know what they were taking (especially Bonds), just that you undermine your own arguments when you allow your bias to infiltrate your thinking. I agree that Bonds almost definitely knew what he was taking and that Sheff probably did too, but that doesn't issue us a license to drop all objectivity when considering the details of the issue.
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| | | 26 | beastiemiked
ID: 4310501610
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 09:54
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Worst case scenario for any of these admitted steroid users is being sent to treatment. Any fine or suspension will not hold up to the established steroid policy in place. The problem with steroids is baseball is not the players that take them but rather the policy that regulates steroid use.
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| | | 27 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 10:00
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MITH, the motive seems out of whack. Is it possible that Anderson sneaked illegal steroids into Bonds' regimen without his knowledge in order to increase his size and performance so obviously that others would approach him and ask him to get the same results for them? Is it reasonable to believe that the changes in Bonds' body and performance were obvious to others but not obvious to Bonds himself? And you also have to ignore the fact that Bonds was known as control freak when it comes to the people who surrounded him. It's almost unthinkable that everyone, his trainer, fellow players, BALCO emplyoees, knew Bonds was taking steroids but he didn't know himself.
But really, intent to cheat is beside the point. He did use performance-enhancing drugs, and his numbers were reflective of that. No really getting around that, unless you want to deny that steroids help athletes.
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| | | 28 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 10:02
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And since Bonds said it, it must be true!!
Bond isn't the only one to say it. Other athletes caught up in the BALCO scandal are saying similiar things. there may be some creedence they were at least somewhat duped...
from Kelli White...
In late 2000, White was 23, just out of the University of Tennessee, determined to become a professional sprinter and reunited with Remi Korchemny, her coach since she was 12, back in her hometown of Union City, Calif. Korchemny introduced her to a San Francisco Bay Area colleague, Victor Conte, who provided her with several supplements and vitamins, including what he called flaxseed oil.
Two weeks later, she said, Conte confided the flaxseed oil was a designer steroid. Instantly White stopped taking it, though she continued to use other Conte products. "I wasn't under the belief at the time that (a drug) was really necessary to be able to run," she said of steroids. "So I didn't even go there."
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| | | 29 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 10:18
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Funny I have Razor responing to one of my posts with the contention that Bonds almost definitely knew, and Tree responding to another of my posts with the contention that Bonds could be a victim of unscrupulous practices on the part of his trainer.
I tend to think that Bonds almost definitely knew he was taking illegal substances into his body. As Razor points out, he's been described as a control freak by too many people for me to accept that he would take any products without knowing exactly what was in them. That leaves open the remote possibility that Anderson lied to Bonds, but I can't put much credibility into that since Anderson was apparently forthcoming with Giambi.
Razor, as far as the issue of whether Anderson had a motive to trick his clients, I didn't say that I think he likely lied to them, only that it is silly to say that no such motive could exist.
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| | | 30 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 11:03
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"Man how am I able to hit these homers so much, and why are my muscles getting so big? Thankyou Flaxseed oil."
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| | | 31 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 11:40
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Mike Lupica today You know what Bonds said under oath? He said that he really didn't know what he was taking, that he just trusted his trainer. Now that his testimony has been leaked - the prosecutors out there seem to have their own timetable when it comes to getting their story out to the San Francisco Chronicle - he will expect us to believe that the greatest team athlete we have right now would take any cream or pill Greg Anderson handed him without asking what it was.
If Bonds believes that we actually will believe that, then he's the biggest dope of all
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| | | 32 | blue hen
ID: 372102211
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 11:48
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Re Post 30 - you are gravely underestimating the male ego.
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| | | 33 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 12:14
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If Bonds believes that we actually will believe that, then he's the biggest dope of all
i disagree. i think people of a certain stature surround themselves with trusted advisors. and if one of those advisors lies to you, the checks and balances are not in place.
he may have been duped, but that doesn't make him a dope.
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| | | 34 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 12:20
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Tree perhaps you have missed the numerous contentions from various sources regarding what an absolute control freak Bonds is, especially regarding issues related to his trainer?
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| | | 35 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 14:01
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Weather he was duped by his trainer or not, nobody is contending that he WAS on steroids. His records need asteriks next to them, as do anyone else caught taking.
Tree, on Keli White:
Also on "20/20," Kelli White, the track and field star who tested positive for steroids, talks for the first time about what happened after she approached Conte. "He made me believe that if I followed a certain protocol of supplements and different drugs that I could become number one in the world," she tells "20/20."
She says she saw a difference within a week or two of beginning the Conte-prescribed regimen. "I saw myself on TV and I was kind of unhappy about that. I was huge, very big, very muscular — none of my clothes fit. And so it was, it was difficult. I knew that looking that way would get a lot of whispers," she said. But White says she didn't feel she was doing anything unethical when she began taking the drugs. "I felt that there [were] so many people doing it that I would just be like one of the others." Eventually, White says, she began to have some concerns about taking the drugs. "The acne thing was bad. The shoulders, the face, my voice changed … I had a period every other week … It got to be so easy that I was actually disappointed. And it — the guilt — was too much then."
Conte says the regimen he and his partners created for White was extraordinarily effective. "I do believe that the program that we developed [for White] was the most sophisticated in the history of the planet Earth."
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Hardly someone who was duped! She went along with it, even if she had some reservations, and from her own comments one can assume that Conte and the gang were forthcoming about what she was taking.
Source: 20/20 article.
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| | | 36 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 14:54
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Why is everyone pro-asterisk? Ben Johnson's record got taken off of the books, so should Bonds' if indeed it is proven that he took them in 2001, which seems all but a formality. Like Caminiti, I suspect he started taking them in 1999 to overcome the injury. He really put on a lot of weight in 1999. It looked like he had gotten fat. It wasn't til a little later that he started looking like a chiseled specimen.
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| | | 37 | Motley Crue
Leader
ID: 439372011
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:01
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I don't have an opinion on the asterisk or punishments or any of that yet, simply because I am unaware if MLB has any rules banning steroids. If it does, then we can talk penalties. But if not, I don't see how you can reasonably penalize these guys. You can't ban them for cheating if you never laid out the specific rules to begin with.
Believe me, Razor. I hate what Bonds has done, and I am really sick of him lying about his steroid use for the last 3 years. But if you don't tell participants what the ground rules are, or if youleave things out of them, then it's not right to punish players when they do something wrong that isn't a specific rules violation.
The first step, and I'm talking this month, is for Bud and the gang to unilaterally impose a penalty for steroid use. If the players union wants to go on strike because they don't agree with that, then let them look like jackasses. Quit mollycoddling this subject and just grow some balls. I know, it won't happen. Bud's a wet blanket and he would never do something so bold. But these players need to be reigned in, and the sooner the better.
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| | | 38 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:01
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Its more complicated than that, Razor. There was no rule in MLB specifically banning steriods until the 2003 season.
What are you proposing, that all of Bonds' official stats be removed from the records?
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| | | 39 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:33
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Fine. Then take all of Bonds' records set after the steroid ban was put in place out of the books. It's not as though steroids were encouraged in baseball. It's just the MLBPA was strong enough to keep it out of the rule book. Everyone knew it was cheating even if it wasn't cheating officially. Bud needs to do something harsh, swift and severe. The rule book doesn't allow him to do ANYTHING, as far as I know. Would retroactive punishment by out of line with regards to the rules? Yes. Would retroactive punishment be unjust disregarding the fact that it wasn't in the rule book at the time? Personally, I don't think so, but I realize it's a terribly slippery slope.
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| | | 40 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:41
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Then take all of Bonds' records set after the steroid ban was put in place out of the books. It's not as though steroids were encouraged in baseball.
What do you mean by his "records"? In 2004 Bonds broke his own single season record for walks with 232. Are you saying that his name and that stat should no longer appear at the top of the single season walks list? If so, what about when we turn to his stats page for the 2004 season? Should there be a blank space where his walks total would normally be?
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| | | 41 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:53
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As ridiculous as it sounds, in my ideal world, a blank space would appear where his 2004 statline is. Same for Caminiti, Canseco, Giambi, etc.
Check out the 1980 national runner-up in the NCAA Tourney
It's not the same, but it's not totally different either.
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| | | 42 | WiddleAvi
ID: 39401623
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:59
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If you are putting asterisks next to Bonds numbers then there should be an asterisk next to every teams W-L record for the last 10 years. I believe more along the line of 50% of players are taking steroids. Every stat for the last x number of years should have an asterisk next to it.
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| | | 43 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:02
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Razor you are then calling for massive discrepencies through the baseball stats records. As much as baseball purists detest steroid-enhanced stats, I'm sure few would accept that.
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| | | 44 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:21
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i think we should also PAD the stats of great players who ruined their careers by drinking or taking other, illicit drugs.
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| | | 45 | Micheal
ID: 25381417
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:25
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If steroids wasn't banned until 2003, then how was Bonds cheating prior to '03? He used a substance that made him stronger than those who didn't use it, but so what, it wasn't specically banned.
About him lying, get real! Does anyone really expect him or any player to tell the truth until they absolutely have to? If you are doing something you're not supposed to be doing, would you admit it just because someone asked if you were doing it?
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| | | 46 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:30
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Well now, if it was alright because it wasn't banned, why would he want to hide it? Mcgwire didn't hide his Andro...
Removing records from the record book is never going to happen, weather its a good idea or not. Simply putting an asterik next to any punk who gets caught lets anyone looking at the record know he was roided, and thus able to perform better then others. If that happens to be 50% of MLB players of the last decade, then so be it. Everyone is already looking back on the 90's 'power hitter era' with alot of skepticm anyway, it would be nice for the record books to do the same.
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| | | 47 | tastethewaste
ID: 56848121
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:29
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Do we even know if Bonds used steroids in 04?
Does it bother anyone that Giambi and Bonds testimony was leaked to the press. Im not a lawyer but isnt that illegal?
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| | | 48 | Ender
Donor
ID: 013443221
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:38
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Yes, it is illegal.
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| | | 49 | tastethewaste
ID: 56848121
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:42
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and does that bother you?
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| | | 50 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:57
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From the article in post 3:
"Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said Friday that the leak of grand jury testimony was an attempt to smear his client. Grand jury transcripts are sealed and the Chronicle did not say who showed them the documents."
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| | | 51 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:59
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Eventually some of this may have become discoverable, or eventually the case itself may be pushed forward, in which case further testimony by Bonds and others would then become discoverable. The key here is the info was leaked prematurely, which isn't right. That being said, the info is certainly newsworthy and controversial.
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| | | 52 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 144192417
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:02
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Khahan: "I noticed nobody is calling for Giambi to be banned from baseball in the Giambi thread. Its nice an convenient to mention here, in passing, that oh yeah, all steroid users should be banned.
Face it. Many of you simply hate Bonds."
The reason why I'm so outraged is because I LIKE Bonds. One of the reasons why I purchase the MLB Season Pass is to watch him play. I stay up until 12CST just to watch one man play baseball because I believe he's the greatest of all time and there'll probably not be another talent like his for at least a generation.
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| | | 53 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:05
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Here is a different case where the Judge recently ruled that grand jury transcripts could be released. This is the Spector case (rock music producer Phil Spector), and the Judge pointed out that in his opinion "Spector's lawyers had failed to show that release of the documents would create a reasonable likelihood that a fair jury could not be found for his trial."
I could eventually see the argument being made in the BALCO case. We just haven't gotten there yet.
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| | | 55 | Khahan
ID: 2884979
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:22
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He used a substance that made him stronger than those who didn't use it...
This statement isn't completely accurate. He used a substance that helped make him stronger from his workouts faster than people who did not use it along with their work outs.
Yes, he used an illegal substance. Whether baseball banned it or not, he opted to use a substance that has been deemed illegal by the US government. Law abiding players do not have this as an option to enhance their performance. So, Yes, Bonds did gain an unfair advantage. But the fact is, he still has to work his ass off to keep himself in shape. He still has to work to stay strong and gain strength. He still has to work to maintain bat speed. He still has to work to maintain his eye-hand coordiation.
People are making it sound like Bonds rubbed this 'linseed' on himself and muscles magically grew.
And MITH, post 22. Here is a quote from higher up the page:
Any of them that get caught using the juice should receive the Pete Rose Treatment and receive a lifetime ban and become ineligible for the HOF.
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| | | 56 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 19:15
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The fact that the Grand Jury data was leaked could end up with the whole mess being thrown out of court and everybody walking.
Hmmmmm, wonder why it was leaked.
Cliff
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| | | 57 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4494554
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 20:14
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Ah, my bad. I failed to catch the sage ramblings of CCP.
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| | | 58 | Razor
ID: 581046117
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 20:38
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Khahan, you're mistaken if you don't think EVERY ballplayer works hard. Some harder than others, but I have no doubt that there are tons of guys out there that bust their asses in the winter to try and get better. The fact that Bonds was one of those guys doesn't change the fact that he cheated. He may not have cheated according to the rules (well, actually he did post 2003), but he cheated everyone of those guys who didn't use steroids. The most depressing thing is thinking about all the clean guys in the league who have to sit back and watch these cheaters beat them in games, beat them for awards, beat them for jobs, beat them for contracts, and still keep their mouths shut about it since that's the code. I was always surprised that some hot head pitcher didn't just bean Bonds everytime, or that someone didn't stay on his ass in the media about juicing. Everyone knew.
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| | | 59 | Khahan
ID: 2884979
Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 21:11
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Razor,
I never said every ball player works hard. But Bonds does. I also never said he didn't cheat. He did. He also broke the law. His act was criminal. Though his deal (as well as the deals of others) will keep him from being prosecuted.
As for the rest of your post about it being depressing that the clean players keep losing out...I couldn't agree with you more.
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| | | 60 | TB
Leader
ID: 031811922
Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 02:41
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I thought I saw on ESPN where 80% of people polled thought he used steroids before all this came out and are pretty indifferent about it. Razor, I think you are fooling yourself if you don't believe that almost every, if not every, single athlete uses something. How in the heck did athletes get so big in the last 30 years?
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| | | 61 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 12:42
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You have to work hard for the steroids to do anything for you. You think you can just take them and sit around and your body gets ripped? Steroids not only increase mass, but also decrease the amount of rest you have to give them before they are fully recovered.
Point is, maybe I'm naive too, but I firmly believe there are a large number of athletes that are clean. I also don't believe Bonds when he says that he didn't know. Funny how Giambi admitted everything and he's given his stuff from the same guy that Bonds is. Funny how an athlete would inject himself and rub stuff on him and have absolutely no idea what is was or what it did.
Bonds must lie to stay out of trouble, but if he's caught lying to the grand jury, he will get jail time I'd expect. Just ask Martha Stewart. It's not the crime, it's the cover-up!
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| | | 62 | Tree
ID: 510231619
Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 13:19
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Funny how an athlete would inject himself and rub stuff on him and have absolutely no idea what is was or what it did.
did Bonds inject himself with anything?
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| | | 63 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 23:38
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"According to a transcript of Bonds' Dec. 4, 2003, testimony reviewed by the Chronicle, prosecutors confronted the slugger with documents allegedly detailing the steroids he used -- "the cream," "the clear," human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, insulin and a drug for female infertility that can be used to mask steroid use. Source
Except for the first two ointments, you inject those other drugs. Since there was no testing before the past two years, you wouldn't even need to mask it. These are the same drugs that were supposedly found in Giambi, but these tests were supposedly anonymous the first year. Giambi admitted to putting everything in him that was supposedly found in him.
All I know is what I've been reading, but for those that don't believe that he could have possibly knowingly taken steroids before this cream which was put in flaxseed oil containters, click on human growth on espn.com and see where he's come from, then go and read what some of the experts say about putting on that much lean muscle mass as you get older and determine for yourselves. I am not an expert, but I've formed an opinion based on what I'm seeing and hearing.
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| | | 64 | biliruben
ID: 3110231016
Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 21:00
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A good point:
f baseball players have been illegally using anabolic steroids. And, in the course of the investigation, Federal law enforcement officials illegally disclosed secret grand jury transcripts to a reporter.
Of the two crimes, it seems to me that the wrong one is getting all the attention.
The grand-jury leak is much more serious intrinsically, and much better worth the attention of the press because those officials work for you and me. Yet the grand jury leak is no so well accepted a prosecution tactic that no one, as far as I know, has even bothered to criticize this one, let alone demand the full-court-press investigation every such case ought to get.
A witness before a grand jury is not allowed to have an attorney present. And there's no judge to step in to stop out-of-bounds lines of questioning. Unlike a criminal defendant, a grand jury witness has no right to be told what the case is about, or what sort of information he provides could be used to make a case against him. All of that is tolerable only under the rule that says matters before the grand jury are secret.
---
It ought to be automatic, in such cases, to get the prosecutor in front of (another) grand jury, get him on oath about whether he gave the material to the press or knows who did, and get from him a list of all the authorized disclosures he made. The proseuctor, plus his list of authorized disclosures, are the complete set of suspects. If none of them had shown the transcripts to someone outside that circle, they never could have gotten to the press. So get all of the authorized disclosees on oath the same way.
And then call the reporter in and ask who gave him the stuff. If he refuses, he goes to jail under the civil cotempt power, for eighteen months or until he opens up, whichever comes first. Will that have a chilling effect on reporters? Damned straight it will, and a good thing, too. This isn't like the national security situation, where classification is mostly a tool to cover up malfeasance and incompetence. (DoD just kept MIT from investigating whether Lincoln Labs faked some missle-defense components tests by classifying all of the information.) This stuff is secret for good reason, and in most cases the only official malfeasance involved is that of the leaker. Mark Kleiman
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| | | 65 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 21:02
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Leaks work in the Press' best interest. No one in the Press is going to seriously demand investigations into the source of their stories, sadly.
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| | | 66 | biliruben
ID: 3110231016
Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 21:04
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Plus, prosecutors don't often have a lot of motivation to prosecute other prosecutors.
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| | | 68 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 09:25
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I can't tell you how pleased I am to finally be able to say that I am no longer in an extreme minority of people who view Bonds' "accomplishments" with such rabid contempt. Looking at these pictures, it's hard to believe that some folks actually believed he was clean.
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| | | 69 | Myboyjack
ID: 1727913
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 12:42
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Razor nothing about those pictures makes believe one way or another that Bonds' took streoids.
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| | | 70 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 13:34
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wow. he's buff. but i dont see any needle holes.
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| | | 71 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:08
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Ya, ya, ya. We've been down this road before. Maybe he didn't look and act like a duck to you, but he sure did to me.
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| | | 72 | biliruben
ID: 3110231016
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:16
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I'm as much as a Dodger fan as you, Razor (though perhaps not as much of an SF hater), and kudos for guessing right, but geez! You win. Get over it.
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| | | 73 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:25
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Sure, but look at him just six years ago:
Quack Quack, I say!
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| | | 74 | biliruben
ID: 3110231016
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:29
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LOL, PD. Bonds was born a poor, hyper-growth, dryer obsessed white child.
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| | | 75 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:55
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Literally LOL bili! Reminds me of the movie The Jerk!
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| | | 76 | Razor
ID: 581046117
Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 19:32
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I'm as much as a Dodger fan as you, Razor (though perhaps not as much of an SF hater), and kudos for guessing right, but geez! You win. Get over it.
As much flak as I've taken here for my harping on Bonds, I'm going to take my week to gloat.
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| | | 77 | Tree
ID: 510231619
Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 20:20
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in all seriousness, i don't get the big deal about those pictures. what are you saying with them?
he looks buff? lots of people look like that...
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| | | 78 | Razor
ID: 581046117
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 00:11
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Sure Tree, lots of guys do look like that. Of course, how many of them are 40, looked MUCH smaller just 5 years earlier, and aren't on steroids? I bet if you rounded up all the guys around the league that look like Bonds, you'd find a lot of steroids abusers among the bunch. Looking at the 2003 NL MVP vote is a disgrace. You have to go to 7th place to find a guy that doesn't have a better than 50/50 chance of being clean.
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| | | 79 | Trip
Sustainer
ID: 13961611
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 00:34
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Razor,
You go girl!
Seriously, I remember waking my girlfriend (now wife) up to see Bonds hit his 500th. I told her that this was something that she would want to remember. Thank goodness that wasn't my kid.
I can't believe the lack of attention this is getiing from the media. It's a (SF) giant yawn. IMM, this is 100x worse than Pete Rose and the salary escalation put together.
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| | | 80 | Filthy Rich
ID: 35119816
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 04:41
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Another 40ish player that was scrawnier when younger is Clemens. I'm not trying to imply anything here cause I think Clemens is just a big ole Texan, but honestly everyone's gotta be suspected these days. Just wondering what would be some thoughts if it turned out that a fair amount of pitchers were steroid users. Would that be a 2 wrongs making a right situation, where the hitters and pitchers were both in the wrong so in a sense still having an equal playing field? or is that just ridiculous to even suggest?
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| | | 81 | Tree
ID: 510231619
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 07:20
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athletes in all sports have gotten bigger throughout history. it's the evolution of weight training, of proper dieting, etc etc.
i'm not saying the juice isn't out there, but posting photos of buff athletes and using that as proof that guys are sticking needles in their asses is just plain silly.
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| | | 82 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 09:27
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Bonds looked like this in his early 30's, and he looked like he does above in his late 30's. Bear in mind Bonds was already in terrific shape.
Whatever. I just think it looks like someone stuck a needle in him and just blew him up. There are a lot of big, ripped athletes these days, but for most of their careers, Bonds, Sosa and the Giambis of the world weren't among them.
There are definitely pitchers juicing. If there is one pitcher I know was juicing for at least a year, it was Kevin Brown back in 2002. I couldn't believe how big he was when I saw him in person. He probably started using for the same reason a lot of players do: to recover from injury and extend his career. Brown looked tiny this year compared to those days. He may have been juicing for a long time and just started using more when he was seriously injured. I don't know. What I do know is that it is very unlikely that a pitcher at that stage of his career could come back looking that humoungous.
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| | | 85 | Razor
ID: 221033012
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 11:39
| I always hated Bonds, but I respected him until 2001. My being a Dodger fan is only relevant insofar as I have had the opportunity to see him more than most fans, and thus, are more cognizant of the change and are more concerned by the effects on the game. I bet if Manny Ramirez started hitting 70 homers and the Sox started having sustained success because of it, we'd see a lot of AL East and Yankee fans jumping all over him. Kind of a joke that I can't mention Bonds without being called a Dodger fan. I hate steroids more than I hate the Giants because I love baseball more than I love the Dodgers.
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| | | 86 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 12:22
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Razor - what about Mark McGwire? what's your thoughts on him? or Gaylord Perry?
they used banned substances.
seriously, you have a hard-on for your hatred of barry bonds...who, btw, looks fabulously hunky in that top photo. what a chest on that man!
pitcher George Frazier: I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A.
Gabe Paul, Cleveland Indians president, defending his pitcher Gaylord Perry against accusations that he threw a spitter: Gaylord is a very honorable man. He only throws the spitter when he needs it.
Perry, when shortstop Todd Cruz fielded a routine grounder, then threw it 30 rows into the stands-an error that cost Perry a 1-0 game, instead of blaming Cruz, said: Too much stuff on the ball.
Allison Perry, 5-year old daughter of pitcher Perry, when asked by a reporter if her daddy threw a grease ball: It's a hard slider.
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| | | 87 | Sludge
ID: 54692111
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 12:49
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To be precise, Tree, McGwire did not use a banned (at the time) substance.
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| | | 88 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 251011111
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 12:57
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"To be precise, Tree, McGwire did not use a banned (at the time) substance."
So he claims...pretty good chance he was using more than just Andro...
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| | | 89 | Ender
Donor
ID: 013443221
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 16:45
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And the shame is even if he was, it still wasn't banned.
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| | | 90 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 12:00
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McGwire was loved, but so was Sammy. Both used steroids IMM. Look at their before and afters too. Also notice that Canseco and McGwire started to blow up at the same time and they were best of friends on the same team. Coincidence? You decide.
There have been rumors about Gagne. Don't know that it is true either, but he sure was amazing after only one winter of lifting. Can't say that he really blew up as he was always kind of big but appears to have channeled that fat into some muscle. He may be legit, but with all those other guys that are cheating, who knows. And this coming from a die-hard Dodgers fan.
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