Forum: base
Page 19188
Subject: CLEMENS back to the YANKS

  Posted by: JEsse - Donor [591162423] Sun, May 06, 2007, 15:10
just announced it at the stadium!
 
1darkside
      ID: 181035120
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 15:22 		Species just called me from the Stadium to say the same thing.

It's nice to be a Yankees fan.
 
2darkside
      ID: 181035120
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 15:26 		ESPN story
 
3Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 15:46 		Righteous. My favorite player of all time comes to my favorite team. Oh yeah.
 
4Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 16:30 		Wow never saw that coming *Snoreeees*
 
5blue hen
      ID: 472431014
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 16:48 		Was pretty exciting. I was with Species at the stadium. They pretty much interrupted Take Me Out To The Ballgame for it.
 
6Razor
      ID: 5455410
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 17:24 		So Clemens will be the 4th highest paid player in the game, despite only playing for four months. The players he trails? Derek Jeter, Jason Giambi and Alex Rodriguez.
 
7Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 17:26 		Good to the Yanks catching a break. With their budget it's really hard fielding a winner.....
 
8Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 17:38 		I wonder if he will be as dominant as people expect. Last year, he pitched in a very weak division, now he is coming to the AL East. He is 45. I didn't see him pitch last year, or follow him, so I am not an expert on him. Just wonder if I am the only one that doesn't expect him to be the Yank's savior?
 
9KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 354152921
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 18:21 		Electroman, one of the big things I heard about Clemens is that he realized as he got older that he doesn't have to show every pitch to every hitter during every at bat. Hitters would see one set of pitches their first AB, then a completely different set the next AB. From what I heard, it was really throwing off hitters and was mostly responsible for his even lower ERA and WHIP in recent years.
 
10JEsse
      Donor
      ID: 591162423
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 18:49 		I know it seems odd- but the yanks MAY be getting their money's worth-

This is why-

Philip Hughes and the other young pitchers- but Hughes in particular (did you see the uncanny similiarity in their deliveries?) will benefit from Roger's presence. I expect that any young pitcher (and organization) would like one of the best pitchers of all time to be a mentor to young talent. The stabilization of the rotation as well as the game approach that Clemens will help these young kids with is invaluable and perhaps is actually worth this ridiculous amount of money.

I know i was looking forward to being paid over a million a week to play some ball, but that dream had a bad ending.. haa

 
11The Left Wings
      ID: 471040263
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 19:26 		Now the question is: Is it worth it to lose a roster spot on a roto team for Clemens the next few weeks by picking him up now? Someone of the qualities of Greg Maddux, AJ Burnett, Andy Pettitte, Jason Schmidt, and Javier Vazquez?
 
12blue hen
      ID: 472431014
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 19:32 		I say yes to all of those guys except Schmidt. I guess that means that Roger will outperform the others, even with the handicap. But it's close on most of those counts.
 
13Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 19:43 		Is it worth it to lose a roster spot on a roto team for Clemens the next few weeks by picking him up now? Someone of the qualities of Greg Maddux, AJ Burnett, Andy Pettitte, Jason Schmidt, and Javier Vazquez?

The Rocket is going to open up a Kan of whoop ass, so yes, by all means put the man on your team.

I've got Yankee tickets for when they come into town and play the White Sox in May and June. Hopefully he pitches in those series.
 
14Skidazl
      ID: 189142212
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 23:22 		God I hope he pulls a Kevin Brown...
 
15ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Sun, May 06, 2007, 23:58 		The.

 
16The Left Wings
      ID: 471040263
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 00:39 		Well, they can put Andy Pettitte to middle relief now...
 
17blue hen
      ID: 472431014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 00:50 		1. Randy Johnson had a pretty good year last year. I don't think he's the reason the Yankees "failed" last year. If they even failed at all. They did make the playoffs. And Randy was't great in his only ALDS start, but they did lose two other games.

2. Did Clemens pull a groin last year at 44? What is the basis for this argument?

3. I am assuming by "Jack" you mean a World Series Championship. Because they sure have won a lot of other things - six AL East titles, two pennants, and a boatload of ballgames. Let's name some teams that have won more games than the Yankees since 2001...

4. Actually, if Clemens joins the rotation, doesn't that push someone to the bullpen? And won't Clemens be handing the ball of to that guy instead of Colter Bean?

5. If Clemens can give the Yankees 5-6 good innings every time out, he will help. Period. It's much better than having someone who won't give you 5-6 good innings every time out.
 
18Razor
      ID: 5455410
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 01:08 		Randy Johnson had a pretty good year last year? Looks crappy to me.

Winning 1 game in the playoffs is a failure for the Yankees. That's success for a lot of teams, but the Yankees aren't spending $100 mil more than 28 other teams just to win 1 playoff game.
 
19Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 05:20 		Randy Johnson 2006 - 205 inning, 172 K's, 5.00 ERA, 1.239 WHIP

Roger Clemens 2003 - 211 innings, 190 K's, 3.91 ERA, 1.214 WHIP
Roger Clemens 2002 - 180 innings, 192 K's, 4.35 ERA, 1.306 ERA

I can't wait 'til the Yanks fans figure out his pitching in the AL East instead of the NL Central. That'll add 100+ points to his ERA.

For rotisserie purposes I would trade him today, unless there is something in his contract about only pitching in interleague games and against the Royals, Rays and Orioles! His value won't get any higher than right before his first start.
 
20ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 06:42 		The.

 
21Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 07:39 		My feelings are mixed. Never been a huge Clemens fan. And I was really hoping at season's start that there wouldn't be any glaring need for major rotation help.

But the rash of injuries, Igawa's failure to pitch well enough to hold down the 4th starter's job, Torre's mishandling of the pen and the terrible April that resulted from it all leaves the team in need of a boost, both in talent and morale.
 
22Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 07:47 		One thing that makes it easier for me to swallow is Ukula's faux optimism. You'll remember that Uke was the one who argued after he Soriano trade that Alex Rodriguez would amount to no better than Richie Sexson with the Yankees.

Its always east to smell desperation from BoSox fans.
 
23darkside
      ID: 181035120
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 08:21 		Wait. What fans want less than a world series title? "Boy oh boy, I sure do hope my team comes in second this year". Doesn't quite sound right.

I do get a kick out of the hatred people have for the Yankees.

It's also nice that fans of other big spenders casually ignore that they blow most of their competition away when it comes to salary, but since it's still dwarfed by the Yankees it doesn't count. Good stuff.
 
24walk
      ID: 259313119
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 09:32 		As a yankee fan, I am:

- Pleased with this signing.

- The pitching staff is shallow, with only Pettitte, Moose and Wang as reliable starters. They need another strong pitcher, whoever it was/is.

- Igawa is not good; Hughes is hurt; the rest are going to be inconsistent. They need a strong 4th.

- Clemens may not pitch more than 6 innings a game, but that is better than 3 innings from whatever Matt DeSalvo type guy they have.

- Hughes will learn from Clemens and Pettitte; good role models.

As a yankee fan, I just want to have a good team and make the playoffs...anything less then a championship is just propaganda by players to get movitated, owners to show bluster, and ukula to avoid realizing the redsox are essentially the same type of team.

- walk
 
25KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 09:52 		"It's also nice that fans of other big spenders casually ignore that they blow most of their competition away when it comes to salary, but since it's still dwarfed by the Yankees it doesn't count."

Even as a non-Yankees fan, I couldn't agree more.

2007 Salaries for AL East
1. NYY, $189.6M
2. BOS, $143.0M
3. BAL, $93.6M
4. TOR, $81.9M
5. TAM, $24.1M

2007 Salaries for Top 5 AL
1. NYY, $189.6M
2. BOS, $143.0M
3. LAA, $109.2M
4. CWS, $108.7M
5. SEA, $106.5M

2007 Salaries for Top 5 MLB
1. NYY, $189.6M
2. BOS, $143.0M
3. NYM, $115.2M
4. LAA, $109.2M
5. CWS, $108.7M

Again, as a non-Yankees fan, I don't see how BOS fans have much of an argument. In reality, their only argument is, "we don't spend as much as NYY," but that's about it and every other team in MLB can make the exact same claim, so who cares? Being #2 in salary by any comparison certainly doesn't show Boston's thrifty side.

I'd also be interested to know what other AL teams, even outside of the big spenders, have made the playoffs the last 12 years running. BOS's only made it 6 of those years. SEA's made it 4 times. LAA have only made it in 3 of those years. White Sox made it twice.

For all the "jack" that the Yankees have done with their money, they certainly seem to do more than other teams.

BOS fans get a bit too caught up in their 2004 championship, IMHO. What have they done since? Well, the got swept by the White Sox in 2005 and didn't make the playoffs in 2006. Since winning their 3 World Series' in a row (2001-2006), the Yankees have a 21-24 record in the playoffs. That may be a losing record, but it's also 45 games in the playoffs. How far back do you need to include to find 45 games in the playoffs for the Red Sox? 1995.

Don't get me wrong. I'm an A's fan. As an A's fan, I want to see the Yankees lose. But, I'm also a realist. I recognize that the Yankees are going to be THE team to beat in the playoffs or on the way to the playoffs the FAR majority of the time. Spouting off about how much the Yankees don't matter or don't accomplish, to me, just shows exactly how much they DO matter and how much they DO accomplish. After all, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays weren't mentioned, were they? Neither were the big-spending (relative to competitiveness) Seattle Mariners.

By making the Yankees out to be nothing, you're actually making them out to be quite a big something.
 
26ukula
      ID: 524979
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 10:09 		The.
 
27JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 10:15 		Also a Yankee fan and I too am pleased with the signing. The rotation has been a disapointment because of the injuries and struggles. They've used 6 rookie pitchers this season as starters (Igawa, Wright, Karstens, Rasner, Hughes, De Salvo) and other than Wang, the other starters are well in their 40's. The bullpen is way overworked. Can Clemens be a cure all? Who knows. But if he can give the Yankees 20 starts with an ERA in the low 4s, and average better than 6 innings per start, it is a step in the right direction and a huge step up from Igawa or Pavano. It is good that the Yankees have the means to make a move like this when a week ago after the second Red Sox series ended, there was alot of panic.

There will be two more Red Sox series coming up that Clemens will not be ready for, that will likely tell more about where the Yankees stand and be a good indicator of the job they will have ahead of them from June on to try to make the postseason. Torre's vote of confidence from Steinbrenner may not have survived with a bad result from those two upcoming Red Sox series without Rocket in the wings.

I have also heard alot about how Halliday and Oswalt credit Clemens with being a good mentor when he was a teammate of theirs early in their career, and if Rocket can do the same with Hughes, Rasner, Karstens, Ohlendorf, and Wright, he will be well worth the investment.
 
28Bandos
      Sustainer
      ID: 279492419
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 10:32 		Re: 23+25

I have yet to see a BOS fan make any kind of comment about money, salaries, economic disparity, and etc. on THIS thread. Razor has, but he is a LAD fan, no? And 28 teams have a legit beef against the Yankees AND now against the Red Sox, who have decided that there is enough revenue to ignore the luxury tax. So I guess I don't understand the comment "fans of other big spenders". There is ONE really really big spender, ONE really big spender, and then the rest, with a few at the bottom (like KKB's A's). As of 2007, BOS fans have no economic argument to make - the system is working for them(us) now because of extremely competent ownership that is milking a vastly smaller market than NY, CHI, LA, PHI, for tons of cash.

BTW: I still think baseball economics suck for most fans, eventhough it works in MY (ie BOS) favor right now.
 
29darkside
      ID: 181035120
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 10:54 		I never said Boston, but they were in mind.

Honestly, I'd say the fans of any team that spends more than 100 million should just keep quiet about the Yankees. But that's my opinion and I'm not that one that looks kinda foolish when saying it, so they can feel free to keep chattering away.

The average 2007 team salary is $82 million. Removing the highest and lowest (NYY and TAM) drops that to $80 million. So, I guess if I made a 'no smack talk' rule it'd be for the fans of teams well above the average...lets say 90 million. That includes:
New York Yankees $189,639,045
Boston Red Sox $143,026,214
New York Mets $115,231,663
Los Angeles Angels $109,251,333
Chicago White Sox $108,671,833
Los Angeles Dodgers $108,454,524
Seattle Mariners $106,460,833
Chicago Cubs $99,670,332
Detroit Tigers $95,180,369
Baltimore Orioles $93,554,808
St. Louis Cardinals $90,286,823
San Francisco Giants $90,219,056

And the Phillies just miss at 89 million.

For reference, the bottom 5:
Arizona Diamondbacks $52,067,546
Pittsburgh Pirates $38,537,833
Washington Nationals $37,347,500
Florida Marlins $30,507,000
Tampa Bay Devil Rays $24,123,500

When you've got a team competing with a payroll of 24 million, saying the Yankees and the Sox are the only 'bad' guys and team X isn't because they're only spending 3 or 4 times as much (instead of 6 or 7) is kinda silly IMO.
 
30Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:17 		Your cutoff of 90 million - is less than HALF of the Yankee payroll. Combine a couple of those 90 million dollar teams and lets see if they make the playoffs every year. They damn sure better.
 
31JEsse
      Donor
      ID: 591162423
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:19 		The system as it is - pays the OWNERS (the excess tax) and they can choose to reinvest it in the team or POCKET it. This is my understanding, i was listening to some lawyer friends discuss this the other day and was shocked. So- the yanks may pay each team a few million- well - that money isn't necessarily helping to make the system more equitable- just the owners richer. Anyone who has links to the actual agreement- i'd love to see. i think it's hypocritical for small market, salaried clubs to keep rosters trim and then pocket rather than reinvest salary cap $.
 
32Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:19 		yeah Phillies fans... you can't say the Yankees payroll is ridiculous because their payroll is a mere $100,000,000 more than yours.

Typical Yankee fan.
 
33darkside
      ID: 181035120
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:22 		And more than 3 times as much as TAM.

I don't think the system is fair (and honestly don't like it), all I'm saying is that while the Yankees are the most egregious 'gamers' of it, there are plenty of other teams that are throwing cash at players.

How about historically? Most of the Yankees championships came before 1980...was there this type of disparity back in the day? I'm honestly just curious.
 
34darkside
      ID: 181035120
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:24 		Abreu says hi. Thanks for giving him to us.
 
35Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:28 		#33: The business side of the game was much different back then--there really is no fair comparison. Player salaries went up as a result of free agency--this was never a concern for much of the Yankees championships.

I'll only say this: Previous championships were won because of farm teams and trades, but the Yankees the last decade of so have built their team around free agent acquisition. They are playing the business side of the game as well as anyone out there, and it shows in the quality of the teams.
 
36Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:43 		Its actually always been about the money with the Yankees.

From 1919 to 1922, the Yankees acquired pitchers Waite Hoyt, Carl Mays and Herb Pennock, catcher Wally Schang, shortstop Everett Scott and third baseman Joe Dugan, all from the Red Sox, for cash. However, pitcher-turned-outfielder Babe Ruth was the most talented of them all.

During the ownership of Arnold Johnson, the Kansas City Athletics traded many young players to the Yankees for cash and aging veterans (much the same way the Red Sox had done under Frazee). When he'd bought the then Philadelphia Athletics from Connie Mack in 1954, he was already the owner of Yankee Stadium, but the American League owners forced him to sell the Stadium as a condition for the purchase. He was also a longtime business associate of then-Yankees co-owners Del Webb and Dan Topping.

Many fans, and even other teams, frequently accused the A's of being operated as a farm team for the Yankees. However, in December 1960, Chicago insurance executive Charles O. Finley purchased the A's from the estate of Johnson, who had died that March. Once he did so, he immediately terminated the team's "special relationship" with the Yankees, cutting off their easy supply of promising players. This development may have marked the beginning of the end for this Yankee dynasty.

But the Johnson/Webb/Topping relationship significantly improved the Yankees' future prospects. In December 1959, a young outfielder named Roger Maris was acquired through one such trade, and he would go on to do great things in New York. In 1960, Maris led the league in slugging percentage, RBIs, and extra base hits. He finished second in home runs (one behind Mantle), and total bases, and he won a Gold Glove and American League MVP award. All of this, however, was a prelude to the year that would follow.

After the 1974 season, Steinbrenner made a move that started the modern era of free agency, signing star pitcher James Augustus "Catfish" Hunter away from Oakland. Midway through the 1975 season, Steinbrenner made another move, hiring former second basemen Billy Martin as manager. With Martin at the helm, the Yankees reached the 1976 World Series, but were swept by the Cincinnati Reds, the famed Big Red Machine.

Steinbrenner continued his buying of high-priced free agents,when he signed star Oakland outfielder Reggie Jackson for a then record $600,000 away from his new home with the Baltimore Orioles.

The Sox fed the Yankees players at the onset of the dynasty in the 20's.
The A's were essentially a farm system for them before Finley took over, which was partly responsible for the 50's and early 60's success.
And Steinbrenner was the first to really go nuts signing free agents (via the dispersal draft at the time) in the 70's.

 
37Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 12:16 		Bandos #28
the system is working for them(us) now because of extremely competent ownership that is milking a vastly smaller market than NY, CHI, LA, PHI, for tons of cash.

Market by rank followed by Number of households reached according to the Parrot's US TV Station Directory 1st quarter 2007 edition:
#1 New York City 7,366,950
#2 Los Angeles 5,611,110
#3 Chicago 3,455,020
#4 Philadelphia 2,941,000
#5 SF/Oakland/San Jose (not incl. Sacramento) 2,383,570
#6 Dallas/Ft Worth 2,378,660
#7 Boston/Manchester 2,372,030
#8 Washington DC 2,272,120
#9 Atlanta 2,205,51
#10 Houston 1,982,120

Divide the dual team markets in half and add in the peripheral markets that include the fan bases and the Red Sox are probably 3rd in share of households reached after the Yankee and Mets.
 
38Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 12:24 		I don't think that's entirely a fair glipse, MITH (though it isn't a bad try. Really). The Red Sox are a New England team, regardless of whether TV signals cover the whole area. And with cable, the internet, and pay-per opportunities, teams are no longer limited to local TV/radio coverage.

[And I doubt the NY area is split equally between Yankees and Mets. :)]
 
39Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 12:46 		I'm not comparing the Yankees to the Red Sox, but responding to the comparison Bandos made between the Red Sox market and other large markets. TV is a very important part of overall revenue teams bring in.

And I do believe the Red Sox also have one of the larger out-of-market fan bases in baseball (outside of New England and Upstate NY in their case). Perhaps 4th after the Yankees, Dodgers and Cubs?
 
40Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 12:48 		Maybe--though those four seem to be very "old school" non-local, if that makes any sense.

The Braves, through TBS, certainly cultivated a lot of new fans through the new medium of cable TV.
 
41blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 12:49 		Holy crap - I just read that passage last night. It's from a book called Winners by Dayn Perry (with a picture of Jeter on the cover). I am reading that book right now, and I just read that part last night.

Webb and Topping were evil. What they did is much worse than what any owner is doing today, including Carl Pohlad. Brian Cashman, for one, is not evil. He's just playing the game with what he has.

It's been touched on here already. The owners are getting richer. The Twins are a profitable franchise because they spend so little on payroll. Can you imagine if the Twins added two 15 million a year players right now? How about Vlad Guerrero (14.5) and Miguel Tejada (13.8)? Wouldn't they be a better team? Other players in that range include Bobby Abreu, Lance Berkman, Jim Thome, Carlos Delgado, Andruw Jones, Carlos Beltran, Pat Burrell, Derrek Lee, and David Ortiz. Couldn't the Twins benefit from one of these guys.

The reason it hasn't happened is not because "they can't afford it" but rather "they want to pocket the money".
 
42Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:00 		True PD I forgot the Braves.
 
43JMan
      ID: 5324618
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:08 		I am pretty new to this board, just happend to stumble upon it . . . based on the above, it sounds like many of you are personal friends (go to games together; telephone calls). That is pretty cool . . . never thought that would be the case.
 
44Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:09 		#41: The Twins have a low payroll because they have young guys (who happen to be producing). The Indians of 1996 had a low payroll too, but had to shed guys left and right as their contracts came up. Manny, Thome, Belle, etc all went.

I look at that 1996 team and am just amazed at the quality young players they had. Giles, Kent, Vizquel, Lofton, etc. The next year they added Sexson, Justice, Grissom, and Casey.
 
45Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:17 		I wouldn't say Red Sox is all of New England fans, I'd be willing to bet at least half the folks in Conn are Yankee fans as they are NYC commuters. (i.e. your very own Carl Pavano from Southington, Connecticutt, a Yankee fan all his life).

And how come Boston gets Manchester added in and NYC is only NYC? Because there are only 500,000 people in Boston. If we are doing that, lets add in the suburbs to NYC... NJ? That alone is worth 8 million. What about LI, NY state, and Conn?

 
46Boxman
      ID: 251142612
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:18 		For everyone hating the Yankees about their payroll, get a grip. If your team had the resources they'd be doing the same thing and you'd be loving it. Some of you guys remind me a lot of the people on Survivor who loose the numbers game and complain about their tribe being systematically voted off. Hypocrits.

1. Clemens has performed rather well for a pitcher above 40.

2. C'mon Clemens is 45. He'll pull a groin in mid-July.

That's not even worth dignifying.

3. The Yankees haven't won Jack since the 20th century.

Are you sure? Nothing since 1999? Huh. Well if you say so.

4. Clemens talks about about how great it'll be to hand the ball off to the greatest reliever in the league, Mariano Rivera (8.38 ERA). Roger, last year you averaged less than 6 innings per start, you'll be handing the ball off to Colter Bean and Brian Bruney.

Now you're just hating the Yankees. Make a point already. Every athlete talks up their team.

5. The last thing the Yankees need right now is another 5-6 inning pitcher.

Yeah, especially one with almost 350 wins and over 4600 strikeouts and a career 3.10 ERA.
 
47blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:19 		You guys are just like MLB owners. Fudging numbers to make people think what you want them to think.
 
48Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:29 		I hate to point this out, but he was right, they have not won since 2000 which was still the 20th century. You don't start couting at 0.
 
49Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:35 		I wouldn't say Red Sox is all of New England fans

Last December I was villified in this forum for arguing that the Red Sox Nation doesn't stretch all the way up to Northern Maine. You guys want it both ways.

I agree. I'd split CT. But the rest of New England is all Sox. Providence, Bangor and Portland markets.

And I'm not fudging numbers.

I include Manchester with with Boston because that's the TV market. The network affiliates in Boston serve Manchester. There is no Manchester media market. I think there is a local broadcast station there or two, but the major network affils are all based in Boston.

The NYC market (not that it matters because I'm not comparing NY to Boston) does include the suburbs - and beyond. There are not 7.36 million households in NYC. That number includes all of Long Island, the northern half of NJ, and at least 7 counties north of the Bronx, stretching halfway to Albany.
 
50Boxman
      ID: 251142612
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:35 		2001: Won the pennant.

2002: Division champs with the best record in the AL.

2003: Won the pennant. Best record in the league.

2004: Knocked out of the playoffs via the choke job. Still made the playoffs.

2005: Won the division.

2006: Won the division for the ninth time in a row.

I think "Jack" can be found somewhere in there.
 
51Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:38 		As bh pointed out already, I guess going to the division series in 2006, 2005, 2004, and 2002, and winning the American League title in 2003 and 2001 is "Jack," then, eh uke? In fact, they've gone to the division series and/or gone to the World Series every season this century.

I don't know what your favorite team is but if your team did half the Yankees have accomplished since 2001 you'd be creaming your jeans.
 
52Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:39 		This is not a discussion about the Braves.
 
53Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:42 		Actually, it seems that since the Yankees have been spending a lot of money on FA, they haven't done too well. The teams that won the four, the core was mostly homegrown talent(Jeter, Williams, Pettite, Posada, Rivera) Yeah, they brought in Clemens and a few other guys, but they filled a role. Now the people they bring in are to make up the core(Giambi, Mussina, Brown, A-Rod, Sheff, Vasquez, Weaver, Damon, Pavano, Wright, Abreu, Johnson), and it has not worked, as far as winning a World Series goes. I really don't like the Yanks, so go on, spend money on guys that want just that, money. The guys that want to win like the Tino Martinez, Scott Brocius etc. aren't good enough for them anymore.
 
54Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:42 		I gotta figure out how there are only 7 million households with 15-20 million people! lol... do all the people in the Boston/Manchester market live alone or something?
 
55ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:45 		The.

 
56Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:47 		I don't understand post 54.
 
57ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:51 		The.

 
58Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:54 		While my feelings arestill overall mixed on the signing, I must admit that with each Ukula post I like it more.
 
59Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:57 		Heh heh. Yeah--the Yankees only won division titles and get lots of exposure, cash, and marketing. It is pretty sad that some Yankee haters have gotten to the point of being happy that the Yankees don't win the World Series every year.

I, for one, am only happy when the Yankees don't make the playoffs, and watch other teams play in October. But little minds have little dreams, I suppose.
 
60ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 13:59 		The.
 
61ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:05 		The.
 
62Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:08 		I'm curious how many fans of the #2 payroll Red Sox are content with falling short of a championship.
 
63ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:11 		The.

 
64Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:17 		With any due respect, Uke, I seem to recall that most BoSox fans in this forum largely tend to disagree with your baseball assessments. There are Red Sox fans and there are Yankee haters. You are clearly the latter before the former. In my opinion, much of the Red Sox nation seemed to get over their extreme rabid ferocious hate when they got the monkey off their back in '04.

You have a pretty good team up there in Boston. One of the best in baseball to date this year. Why is it you post so much more about the Yankees than you the team you are supposedly a fan of?

Some fan.
 
65Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:21 		When he smashes up his car, everyone gets a little satisfaction.

But your satisfaction comes when it gets dirty after a long drive.
 
66ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:37 		The.

 
67Bandos
      Sustainer
      ID: 279492419
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:43 		The market issue was just tackled at BP by Nate Silver. He found some interesting things, especially about the split markets.

New York Yankees
Attendance Sphere: 17.9M (304, 1st)
TV Sphere: 21.9M (247, 1st)
MSA: 18.8M (327, 1st)
Mike Jones: 16.6M (262, T-1st)
States Won (TV): New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Puerto Rico

The Yankees are baseball�s one and only hegemon, and they can steal fans away from other East Coast cities that are just an Acela ride away from New York. Giving them a bonus credit for 10 percent of Puerto Rico�s viewing audience is piling on, but the model thinks that their superior influence rating allows them to outshine the Marlins on the island. That might not be unrealistic, given Puerto Rico�s connections with New York City.

The Yankees have some slight geographic advantages in addition to their higher influence rating, as they�re a slightly shorter commute from both Westchester County and Northern New Jersey, enough to make up for any advantages the Mets might have on Long Island.

Boston Red Sox
Attendance Sphere: 6.8M (116, 8th)
TV Sphere: 10.1M (114, 9th)
MSA: 4.5M (78, 15th)
Mike Jones: 9.8 (155, 4th)
States Won (TV): Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, Vermont

They�re a regional team, to be sure, but once you move beyond Boston, there aren�t all that many people in New England--about 4.3 million combined in New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, and Vermont (Connecticut is more populous, but shared with the New York clubs). The model assumes that the Red Sox don�t deserve any credit for Montreal, which is nominally closer to Boston but spiritually closer to Toronto."

FYI: He puts LA, CHI, PHI all ahead of BOS (Both teams in LA and CHI) and the Mets, too! (Can't forget about them)

 
68Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:47 		I guess I should be thankful that I didnt grow up in the baseball equivolent of a Palestinian refugee camp. Good luck with you jihad.
 
69ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 14:56 		The.
 
70Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:03 		Yes, it is all a conspiracy, uke. The Masons are behind it. Or George W. Bush (former baseball team owner...hmmmm).
 
71ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:14 		The.
 
72KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:22 		Every team is different, do you think the Royals or Devil Rays would be content with a division title? Absolutely!!

The Yankees and their fans are the ones that set the goal of a WS championship every year, not me. When they don't reach their goal they are saddened.

As an A's fan, I'm saddened when they don't win the World Series. I'm saddened when they don't win the ALCS. I'm saddened when they don't win the ALWC. I'm saddened when they don't make the playoffs. I'm pretty much saddened any time they fail to produce in the post-season. And I'm certainly not content with a division title, even though I know how much of a crap shoot the playoffs are.

Maybe it's just BoSox fans, through decades of disappointment, that aren't saddened when their team loses in the post-season.
 
73dpr
      ID: 1733917
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:30 		Disappointed with the season or the last series?

Are you a GSW fan too? If so would you be disappointed with their season if they lose the series to the Jazz?
 
74Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:31 		uke, you are talking to a guy who was Air Force ROTC for awhile. Nice try, though. What, exactly, have you done to protect freedom?

After awhile, don't all your fumbling, piss poor attempts at arguments even strike you as fumbling and piss poor?

pd
 
75blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:31 		I wouldn't say Red Sox is all of New England fans, I'd be willing to bet at least half the folks in Conn are Yankee fans as they are NYC commuters. (i.e. your very own Carl Pavano from Southington, Connecticutt, a Yankee fan all his life).

Re #45: People from Southington, Connecticut are NOT New York commuters.
 
76Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:39 		Interesting study, Bandos. I see the Mike Jones study has The Red Sox with the 4th largest market, closer to where I wound up. I wonder what his methods were.
 
77Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:44 		Hen, I guess you are saying my cousins aren't people then. Yes, it takes a couple hours.
 
78ukula
      ID: 5445712
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 15:52 		The.
 
79KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:03 		dpr, I'm not a GSW fan, so I can't say. But, while I can appreciate a good season by the A's, I would still be disappointed by a loss in the post-season. I don't know that I'd be disappointed in the WHOLE season, but I'd wager that most Yankees fans aren't disappointed in EVERYTHING that's happened since their last WS win. I think that's just other team's fans being a bit dramatic.
 
80Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:04 		I've had Clemens stashed on my RIBC roster. I was hoping he would be an Astro. I'll probably trade him now. My guess is he will get more run support..i.e. more wins. He was over the hill 5 years ago, so I'm not sure when he will taper off.

When you spend twice as much as other teams, anything short of a World Series victory is a failure IMO. What would be interesting is a profit/loss statement for these high-paying teams. My guess is they lose money every year.
 
81Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:11 		As privately held companies, they don't release p/l statements. But my guess is that they are doing quite well for themselves, mostly through merchandizing and other non-ticket revenue streams.

I did see a few web sites which took some pretty good stabs at profit statements. I'll dig around.
 
82Razor
      ID: 2107611
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:13 		I don't see a whole lot of Yankee fans backing you up, KKB. It's been a while in baseball for me, but there other sports where I view a non-championship season as a disappointment when I know my team is a heavy contender.
 
83darkside
      ID: 181035120
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:21 		It blows my mind that KKB may need backed up. Maybe it's a culture of 'do your best, the results don't matter as long as you try' that we trick everyone into believing, but one thing should matter to teams and fans...a championship.

The whole point of the regular season, and when I say whole, I mean whole, is to get to the playoffs where the whole point is to win the world series.

This isn't rocket science. The teams play to win the world series. End of story.

Any other supposed reasoning is nothing more than a way to help you cope with losing.

This is not to say there isn't value to other achievements, but to try to say that the world series isn't what's important is ignoring, well, the point of the game. At least that's what I think.
 
84Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:22 		from a year ago...

ESPN.com news services

The New York Yankees lost between $50 million and $85 million for the 2005 season, the New York Daily News reported Sunday.

Despite drawing more than four million fans, a payroll of $200 million plus an additional $110 million in revenue sharing and luxury taxes has left the Yankees in the red, according to the paper.

"Yes, even George has his limits," one source told the Daily News.

The paper also reports that the Yankees might have to open up their checkbooks even further if a consultant hired by MLB decides the team undervalued their television rights.

The Yankees currently charge the YES Network about $60 million a year to broadcast games, but if it's found to be undervalued, the Yankees will have to make up the difference by putting more money into the revenue-sharing fund, the paper reported.

"They're going to owe us money," one MLB source predicted to the paper.

The final numbers won't be crunched for a few months, but it's believed the final number will be roughly $80 million when all is tallied. According to Forbes magazine, the Yankees lost $37.1 million in 2004.

 
85blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:26 		I have been disappointed in the Phillies pretty much every year of my life. Granted, they've only made the playoffs once since I was six. But I won't say that they haven't won jack... they've won a lot of ballgames...
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:46 		I'm not exactly sure what the question is. The statement that every season in which they don't win the WS is a failure? I can agree with that.

But it's not all or nothing, either. I'm a fan. I enjoy the season, its ups and downs, etc. The idea that they "haven't accomplished jack" or whatever narrow minded thing he said is an exageration of that. Winning the division for any team is an accomplishment, as is any playoff series.

Every Yankee fan is proud of the list in post 50. It's not enough for us, and it's not hard to admit that doesn't mean as much as it would to a Royals or Pirates fan but the record of success this decade is nothing to sneeze at either. There are enough other teams that spend boatloads of money year after year on their rosters with nothing close to the Yankees' success in that period of time.

There's an awful lot of chance that goes into a baseball season. Because it is such a long haul, big money can go a long way toward reducing that factor. But that factor is exponentially magnified when it comes down to having to win a few short series in a row. We've been shown in the big money era that money cannot be nearly as effective come playoff time.

Its often said that the difference between the actual talent of an all star and a mediocre player is quite marginal. Over the course of a season and a career the differences become apparent. Inside a few weeks, anything can happen. In the past 7 days, Esteban German, Trot Nixon and Craig Monroe have far outperformed Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Cabrera and Travis Hafner at the plate.

This happens every year in the playoffs. There is no known way successfully to build a WS Champion. The best clutch players who put their heart and soul into every moment on the field go cold at the wrong time. Most realistic fans understand this. Its not an excuse, just a fact.

The Yankees use their money to give themselves a great chance to get to the playoffs every year. But money isn't nearly the same kind of advantage once you get there.
 
88Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 16:49 		The New York Yankees lost between $50 million and $85 million for the 2005 season.

Thanks for the info Great One.

How can that be successful? They probably lost more money that any other team in the league. And with no World Series title, a neutral observer would have to call that season a disaster. Oakland failed to win the World Series in 2005. They also did not go $50 million in the hole attempting to do so.
 
89blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 17:16 		But meanwhile, the YES Network and Steiner collectibles are utterly successful. And the Yankee Stadium corporation collects rent with reckless abandon.

Doctoring.

The.

Numbers.
 
90Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 17:46 		It's hard to get a real number from these teams, because if they show any profits, the union is going to demand more stuff. And players are going to demand more money if their team appears to be real profitable. I remember the last union negotiations where almost every team was claiming they lost money. Probably some creative accounting go on there. Also, I don't think any team has ever been sold for a loss. (Less than the owner paid for it) That may be another sport though. Thus, even if they have annual losses; they may make out when/if they sell the team. I'm sure George could sell the team now for far more than he paid. Eating $50 million a year would be tough though.
 
91Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 18:09 		$28M
 
92Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 18:29 		This happens every year in the playoffs. There is no known way successfully to build a WS Champion. The best clutch players who put their heart and soul into every moment on the field go cold at the wrong time. Most realistic fans understand this. Its not an excuse, just a fact.

And it's pretty much regardless of sport that has a legitimate playoff system. The one year George Mason went deep into the tourney I don't think anyone would say they were the 4th best team in the country. They just got hot at the right time. Is Golden State really that much better than Dallas this year? I don't think so. That's sports.
 
93beebop
      ID: 313282615
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 18:56 		Cant remember the exact record, but since Nellie went to GSW, havent they owned Dallas in the head 2 head record?
 
94Bandos
      Sustainer
      ID: 279492419
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 18:59 		I would have to disagree Box. Baseball is much more a crapshoot than the others.

Football, almost always the better team wins.
Basketball, the best team invariable wins a best of 7 with few exceptions. Dallas was exposed and Dirk disappeared- - it is the exception that proves the rule.
Hockey is more of a crapshoot than the others if a goalie goes sick.
Anything that is one and done doesnt count.

Some examples: The Cardinals werent the best last year, but they just pitched lights out at the right time. Same with the Chisox, though an argument can be made that that was a deep team with a great pen, maybe the best. Sox/Yanks pretty evenly matched as the two best teams in 2003/2004 but Yanks lose to Marlins, also to D-Backs who were schil/Unit and thats it. There are so many examples in baseball - Dodgers beating the A's in 88? Reds beating the A's in 90? Royals? on and on and on. Bonds Pittsburgh teams not making the series? All the wild card teams winning the series.

I agree with Beane here. You can predict 162, not a best of seven.
 
95Khahan
      ID: 50324299
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 22:38 		As a Red Sox fan I just wanted to say that the views and opinions expressed on this board by Ukula are only his view and opinion and not representative of the members of Red Sox Nation individually or as a whole.

 
96ukula
      ID: 1942716
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 08:54 		The.
 
97Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 09:27 		Rivera did not pitch in a save situation last night. Another tough loss, though.
 
98blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 12:43 		In college basketball, the best team almost never wins the national championship. Usually, the 4th or 5th best team (or worse) wins, and we hear nary a peep.
 
99KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 13:51 		RE: 98, because the big schools are paying their players more than the little schools. Duh!

Oh, wait... ;)
 
100Khahan
      ID: 50324299
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 17:01 		Ukula, I'm by no means part of that '5%' you claim exists. I do not cheer for the Yankees. I do not think its 'politically correct' to cheer for the Yankees.

I'm just a realist. Baseball as a whole has allowed the existing salary structure to rocket out of control. I don't blame Big Stein for utilizing all the resources he has to help his team. I'm by no means saying its healthy or that it doesn't need corrected or that he should do it. But he's allowed to and he does.

I think baseball needs some major overhauls (which is an entirely different thread) but that has nothing to do with being a Red Sox fan. I will root for the Red Sox until the day I die. Just because I don't have the need to feel or express an unhealthy level of negative feelings doesn't mean I like the Yankees. Frankly, I think its a loud minority which you fall into that loathes the Yankees to the point of being unhealthy and unrealistic. The rest of us understand the history of the game, the teams, the players and don't like the Yankees.
 
101Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 18:15
 
102Perm Dude
      ID: 454521020
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 23:06 		ROFL! Love that one.

 
103ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 23:38 		The.
 
104Perm Dude
      ID: 454521020
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 23:50 		Define "true dynasty."
 
105Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 00:56 		Its funny when blind hate precludes reason.

"True dynasty" apparently means one that didn't occur in NY. Since the Yanks had 2 of them since the Big Red Machine.

I'd suggest to Ukula to that keep it up because as the Yankees appear to be righting their ship, it might not be long before the Red Sox are looking over their shoulder, and that it'll be nice to see him eat his words when that time comes.

But we know from years of experience here that Uke cares far less about the fate of the Red Sox than he does that of the Yankees. By his own account earlier in this thread, he's perfectly happy with a losing season and 4th place finish in Boston - as long as the Yanks finish 5th. We can all rest assured that if and when the Yanks do complete a turnaround, Uke will be nowhere to be found. Even if 2007 is the best and most exciting edition of the Yankees/Sox rivalry to date, if the Yanks happen to just barely nudge them out in the end, Uke will have absolutely nothing to talk about and will not be found near here.

As far as the Sox go, I truly think this may be the greatest team since baseball's last true dynasty, the Cincinnati Reds of the mid 70s.

Well finally Ukula has posted a single sentence in a baseball discussion anywhere in this forum that isn't about the Yankees. I suspected that all the attention and time he's spent on the 3 Yankees losses so far this month, he probably hadn't noticed that the Red Sox share the best record in baseball with Milwaukee. So maybe he does have a secondary interest to following the Yankees after all.



Anyway

Another great pitching performance by the Yankee staff. Maybe they should just have Roger work his way back into shape while pitching at the Major League Level...


This is odd timing, Sox strong play aside (kudos - to actual Red Sox fans). Including today, the Yankee starters' ERA since Sunday (the day this thread was started) is 2.25.

The team ERA in that time is 4.20, thanks to today's blowout and especially Vizcaino and Henn, both now mop up pitchers relegated to the back of the pen, at least until they get themselves straightened out.

After their horrible April, the Yankees are 7-3 in May including today, outscoring opponents 61-43 with 5 quality starts and an overall May ERA of 4.30.


...it can't get any worse

I have to assume you're hoping it does. In a month Clemens will be here and The Yankees will have Hughes, Rasner and DeSalvo to choose from as their 5th starter. If it's Hughes, the other two will both be available to fill any holes in the pen, if necessary. At the very worst, they have 3 healthy reliaible starters with some intriguing young callups until Hughes and Clemens are here, in 3 and maybe 4 weeks, respectively. To date they've far outrscored every other team in baseball, even after their horrible April.

If I were a Red Sox fan hoping for the Yanks' season to continue to melt down, I wouldn't be all that happy that the best chance of that seems to hang on Rivera not coming around. But then Uke has no reason to be concerned with such matters, does he?

If I were a non-Yankee fan reading this thread, I'd be just thrilled at the fact that Ukula simply cannot help but prompt homer Yankee fans like Mattinglyinthehall to go on in long posts about the effing Yankees.
 
106blue hen
      ID: 472431014
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 01:18 		MITH, please stop belittling my cousin, Sean Henn.
 
107ukula
      ID: 32421119
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 10:37 		The.
 
108ukula
      ID: 32421119
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 10:42 		By the way, to all who claim to know how Sox fans or Yankee fans really think, we live 2 hours from Boston and 2 hours from NY, we're right on the front lines of this rivalry, we're not sitting pretty in Boston or living in the filth of the Bronx where the smell of hot dogs and urine means "Play Ball!". 50% of the people here are for the Sox and the other 50% are for the Yanks - it get's pretty heated.
 
109Perm Dude
      ID: 28410118
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 11:12 		So you have no definition of "true dynasty" then? You can only make pathetic attempts at belittling the Yankees (who went to the World Series 5 out of 6 years, winning 4 of them, including 4 in a row).

The Reds (two world series in a row) were very good, indeed. But to call that a "true dynasty" is somewhat laughable.

 
110ukula
      ID: 32421119
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 11:31 		pd - the Yankee dynasty you're referring to was totally debunked in a previous thread.

 
111Perm Dude
      ID: 28410118
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 11:49 		Wow, you are an idiot.
 
112Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 11:50 		Such anger...

Oh I'm not angry. Believe me, I like it when you post, Uke. I suspect Yankee fans are probably the only ones who feel that way here.

Can't take anything away from the Red Machine. Comparing them to the Yankees of the late 90s (or the early 90s Blue Jays or the late 80s Athletics) might be a stretch, given the different eras. The Yankees of the late 70s did play in the same era and were not nearly as dominant.

Re you question about HOFers on recent dynasties, I'll assume a dynasty requires consecutive championships. Questionable, but 'questionable' is better than par for you so we'll go with that.

The Big Red Machine had a total of 3 I think. Morgan, Perez and Bench. Add in Pete Rose, whom I feel should be there and was unquestionably a good enough player to be there.

The late 70s Yanks had only Reggie Jackson and Catfish Hunter.

The late 80s A's had Dennis Eckersley and Rickey Henderson. Perhaps McGwire will find his way in, one day.

The early 90s Jays had Dave Winfield in 1992. They also had Roberto Alomar, who will be in. That might be it. I don't think Jimmy Key deserves consideration, tho I haven't taken a very close look.

Late 90s Yankees HOFers are mostly speculation. They had Rivera, who will get in. Clemens was there for 2 Championships, 3 Pennants. Boggs for 1 Championship, Tim Raines was there for 2. Cone played on all 4 championship teams and might have a case, not sure. If Pettitte has some good years of baseball left in him, he might have a better argument than Cone, tough to say. Jeter looks like he'll be Hall worthy when all is said and done. Posada is still going strong so if he has a couple more good seasons in him, he might have a case, too.

Regarding your original point that the '07 Sox might be Baseball's best team since the BRM, come back when the '07 Sox win 116 regular season games like the Mariners did in 2001 or 114 regular season + 11 postseason games like the 1998 World Series Chmaps did. The deservedly vaunted Reds, the team you regard as the standard, won 108 in the 1975 regular season.

I'll also note that of course that in 5 total starts against the Yankees so far this year, Dice-K, Beckett and Schilling have a 6.33 ERA and not a single quality start.

A smarter man (or a smarter adolescent) might not talk so tough just yet. But as we know, there's no accounting for logic when it comes to jihad.

And I'm curious, where and exactly how was the late 90s Yankees' 'dynasty' "debunked"? This ought to be good.
 
113ukula
      ID: 32421119
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:04 		pd - That's the best you can come up with?

MITH - You can make statistics say whatever you want.

I remember that thread getting quite heated, but in the end all parties agreed that the Yankees of the late 90s were not a dynasty.

 
114blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:06 		MITH, there's more to it than that...

The late 80's A's had much more than just Henderson and Eckersley...

Jose Canseco, the 1988 AL MVP.
Willie McGee, the 1985 NL MVP and 1990 batting champ.
Dave Stewart, 4 consecutive 20 win seasons.
Bob Welch, 1990 AL Cy Young winner.
Walt Weiss, 1988 NL Rookie of the Year
Terry Steinbach, multi-time All Star and All Star MVP.
Mike Moore, 3rd in AL Cy Young voting in 1989.
Carney Lansford, 1981 AL batting champ and runner-up in 1989.
Dave Henderson, 13th in MVP voting in 1988.
Tony Phillips, 7 times among top 5 in walks.
Willie Randolph, 6 time All-Star.
Don Baylor, former MVP.
Dave Parker, former MVP and batting champ.
Billy Beane, the greatest GM of all time.
Mark McGwire, who was a Hall of Fame lock when he retired.
 
115ukula
      ID: 284111111
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:17 		Billy Beane was NOT the GM back then (LOL). No wonder ESPN is going down the tubes.

You forgot Mikey Spankbush, widely regarded as one of the greatest batboys of alltime.

Also, Pops Wagner - he led the A.L. beer vendors in sales in both June of 1988 and May of 1989.
 
116Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:19 		Hen I totally agree. Obviously I could have listed extensive accolades for each "dynasty".

Ukula's standard was HOFers, so thats what I went with.
 
117Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:23 		Jihad Uke: MITH - You can make statistics say whatever you want.

Well, actually, no, I cant. For example I cannot make statistics say that the cream of the Red Sox Rotation has fared well against the Yankee hitters. You brought them up, not me.
 
118Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:26 		Anyone know about this thread in which all parties agreed in the end that the late 90's Yankees don't qualify as a dynasty?
 
119ukula
      ID: 284111111
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:27 		MITH - You're right. I can't make statistics say anything I want. For instance, take the AL East standings - no matter how I slice it the Yankees are still 7 games back. Also, no matter how many times I go over the data, I see that the Sox took 5 of 6 from the Yankees so far this year. So, in that that regard you are correct.
 
120ukula
      ID: 284111111
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:30 		Hey, I just realized I moved up to # 2 in the TSN Ultimate Baseball Hall of Champions. Where's Blue Hen?
 
121Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:30 		There you go, Uke. I suggest you cling to that as long as you can. Because most everything else you've said here has the rest of us laughing at you.
 
122ukula
      ID: 284111111
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:34 		You're the only one laughing - pd and bh ran away and hid when I exposed them as frauds.
 
123Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 12:34 		LOL!
 
124Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 13:56 		[115] Genius...Billy Beane was on the 1989 A's. Blue Hen didn't say he was the GM.
 
125ukula
      ID: 284111111
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 14:11 		Re: 124

See 115
 
126ukula
      ID: 284111111
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 14:13 		Re: 124

You just totally dissed Mikey Spankbush
 
127blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 14:25 		Do people think it would improve this thread if we just deleted everything he said?
 
128Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 14:53 		I don't usually rate threads, but I'm rating this one a 5.
 
129Mark L
      ID: 25155512
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 15:03 		112 MITH - Paul Molitor HOF for the 93-95 Jays. Sal Bando didn't want to pay that much for a DH.
 
130Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 15:09 		Ah. Good catch.
 
131ukula
      ID: 294451114
      Fri, May 11, 2007, 15:54 		Re 127:

No, I don't think deleting MITH's posts would do any good. That's censorship anyway and that's not what this country is all about. Well, at least that's not what this country used to be about before the whole tapping of phone lines, torturing, and false-flag terror from the current administration. But anyway, I'm getting off-topic - before you know it I'll be rambling on about mustard gas on turkey farms.

bh - No, don't delete MITH's posts - let the man speak!
 
132ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Sun, May 13, 2007, 23:02 		The team with the best record in baseball is now 8 games ahead of the team with the highest payroll.

Wahooooo!!!!

6 runs in the ninth! I haven't seen a 9th inning comeback like that since the last time Mariano Rivera faced the Sox. LOL
 
133Khahan
      ID: 50324299
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 06:23 		Its great to see Boston as the best through the first month and a half. It'll be even better to see them as the best through the whole season.

And Ukula..if you truly are a Red Sox fan, stop measuring their success against the Yankees!!!!!!!!
You sound more like a closet Yankees fan because you won't shut up about them.
 
134Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 09:28 		I'm curious where the "greatest offense ever" has been lately for the Yankees... I thought they were gonna score 1000 runs this year said all the "experts". I guess the vaunted Seattle pitching staff was too overpowering.

And everyone said the Red Sox offense would be below average and the pitching would carry them. Well they have a higher AVG than the Yanks, higher OBP, more HR's, more doubles, more triples, more steals, greater SLG.

And I don't want to hear about Fenway helping either, cause since they remodeled, HR's are WAY down there. In 2006, the only park with less HR's hit in it was in San Fran. In the bottom half again this year even with the "back-to-back-to-back-to-back" boosting the number.

Are Yankee fans starting to get a feel for Abreu and just how overrated he is? And when Cano isn't hitting for AVG, he is useless with no power and he can't steal a base.
 
135Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 10:49 		6 weeks into the season, the Yankees still haven't put it all together. The starting pitching is rounding into form (tho won't be whole for another 2-3 weeks or so and Clemens and Hughes will each need time to stretch out and find a groove after that.

The hitting has been solid overall, but very quiet of late. Giambi is playing with bone spurs in his heel that are hampering his swing, Damon continues to have cramping in his calf. They'll come around. It's awfully early to count them out. I don't think it likely that Bobby Abreu and Robinson Cano will hit under .240, Damon under .260 or Giambi under 25 HR this year.

The scouting on Cano says he should develop more power (he's only 25) but I'd hardly say he's devoid of power. SLG last year was .525, 3rd best among MLB 2Bmen and 1st in the AL. 15 HR (last year's total) from a 2B is nothing to sneeze at and his 41 doubles were 2nd amont MLB 2Bmen. After 2 years of strong offensive numbers and still shy of his 25th birthday, I don't think it very likely that the scant production we're seeing now is the expected norm.

I never really understood why people call Abreu overrated. He's an OBP stud. He's completely out of whack right now but I can't imagine you think that what we see from him currently is what we should expect all the time. Last season he came to NY and put up a .420 OBP. Anything he does after that is gravy.

All that said, they are leading MLB in RBI and total runs scored (on pace for 900) 3rd in OBP and 4th in BA.

Perhaps the Yanks will never manage to get their hitting and pitching going as they should at the same time for extended periods this season, making it a cakewalk for the Sox into the playoffs. I still don't think it very likely.

And I don't want to hear about Fenway helping either, cause since they remodeled, HR's are WAY down there.

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Just like the Yankees and every other team in baseball, the Red Sox try to stock their team with players that can exploit the dimensions of their home park. Of course Fenway Park "helps" the Sox. Every GM tries to build his team with players that will be "helped" by their home park.

And FWIW, to my knowledge the Fenway outfield dimensions have not been changed in recent years - if ever. They have added seating along the sidelines that, if anything, takes away foul territory, which would be a boost for hitters there.
 
136Perm Dude
      ID: 57426149
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 10:52 		Many Yankees are underperforming right now, Cano and Bobby among them.
 
137Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 10:58 		They and Damon. Giambi's heel is killing him right now and I suspect he'll soon be shut down for a little while. Melky Cabrera hitting under .220 has also hurt, tho I think his productive 2006 may have morly likely been a fluke than the norm for him.
 
138Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 11:26 		I was at the Stadium for the Clemens announcement. While I don't think I felt quite as excited as Susan Waldman (sp?), it certainly was an exciting moment to experience live.

Now is a good time to kick the Yankees while they are down. You might as well get your shots in now while you can. I just wonder if the antagonist will show up when the tables are turned?!?
 
139barilko6
      ID: 52261810
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 11:36 		They are saying Clemen's first start is scheduled to be June 2 against...Boston! At Fenway!
 
140Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 11:45 		Yeah thats the schedule, depending on how his training develops. Tough first assignment, but there's no point in babying him.
 
141Perm Dude
      ID: 57426149
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 11:51 		Well, there are two schedules. He'll make a high-A start on Friday, then a AA start next week. If he makes a stop in Scranton then the Boston game looks to be his first start for the Yankees. If there are no problems with the first two starts he'll jump right into the rotation for the Toronto series.
 
142ukula
      ID: 17436147
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 12:37 		Re 135: Mith - Please hit the dimmer switch on that "bright side".

I'm tired of hearing about that 45 year-old savior. If he doesn't start pitching soon the Yankees will be 12 back by June 1st. The guy is old and his steroid abuse is starting to catch up with him, just like it is with Giambi.

Face it, the Yankees always pay guys the big contracts after they put up big career numbers and before their bodies break down. Mussina, Johnson, Clemens, Damon, Giambi, Pettitte, etc...

I know, maybe the Yankees can wheel Yogi Berra out onto the field for some type of ceremony with Don Larsen and a couple of other old-timers and try to get some of that Yankee "mystique" back.

Why do I get the feeling that we'll be hearing that Clemens story from Species for months on end.

Yankee fans can take comfort in the fact that they won't lose today.

Hey, I have a great idea - gather all the Yankee greats from the past in Steinbrenner's box and have Bob Sheppard read their cholesterol levels to the crowd as only Bob Sheppard can do. Suzyn Waldman will go crazy - maybe we can get Species some tickets to the game.
 
143ukula
      ID: 17436147
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 12:41 		Another great idea for Yankee stadium - Let's get an old scratchy 45 of Kate Smith singing "God Bless America" and play it during the 7th inning stretch!

Oh wait, - they're already doing that? Oh, never mind.

 
144Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:03 		MITH - since they added another a few new buildings around the stadium, did some renovations inside (specifically the former .406 Club) and another tier of seats up near the Budweiser sign in right a couple years back, it seems the HR's have dropped greatly. Apparently there was a little jetstream out that way and now HR's are falling short.

I guess the flipside is that it helps the pitchers.
Boston Globe article
Whats funny about the article is that it was during the construction and was just making a predicition of what could happen - and then all of last season and this year so far, HR's have fallen off dramatically.
 
145Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:09 		Further supporting that, the one guy this would seem to impact most would be the big lefty...

Ortiz - 2007
3 HRs at home
6 HRs on the road

Ortiz - 2006
22 HRs at home
32 HRs on the road
 
146Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:13 		In my vague recollection Fenway has never been an especially homer-friendly park.....but has always been condusive to scoring runs. GO - are there any stats about a decline in runs scored?
 
147Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:27 		Certainly a lot of extra base hits supports that. That wall hurts sometimes too, I don't know how many times guys hit them off the top of the wall and only get a single.

Park factor is a pretty good tool... finished 13th last year in the park factor runs per game ranking. (Cincy #1, San Diego last). As well as in 2005 which is when all this building started. The previous 2 years with similar lineups 2003 they were #3 and 2004 they were #6.

And the HR's were always around 1.02 (thats per game I assume) and have steadily declined the last 4 years to .727 last year and and .789 this year so far.
 
148Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:36 		ukula - thanks for the ticket offer! So generous. You are a fan's fan.

And man.....being at that Clemens game was GREAT! You should have been there!
 
149Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:44 		I hadn't seen that. Interesting. Based on the article, the buildings went up prior to the 2006 season.

Sox HRs in the past 4 years: home/road/% at home:
2006: 83/109/43%
2005: 92/107/46%
2003: 111/127/47%
2002: 77/100/44%

You're right in that they were down last year. But 43% vs 45.0% over the previous 3 years is hardly a dramatic change.

The 2007 numbers favor your argument much better than 2006: 14hr in 16 road games vs 25hr in 20 road games.

But obviously the first 36 games is a small and uneven sample size.
 
150Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 14:01 		Just realized I skipped 2004:

2006: 83/109/43%
2005: 92/107/46%
2004: 111/111/50%
2003: 111/127/47%
2002: 77/100/44%

So the total from '02-'05 is 46.7% at home. A little more significant. Maybe there is something to it. It'll take more time to get a definitive answer.
 
151Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 09:10 		Farnsworth thinks Clemens shouldn't leave team.

"As far as a teammate and a player, I think everybody should be here whether they're pitching or not," he said. "You don't see guys who are hurt not sit on the bench. They're always there."

 
152Perm Dude
      ID: 2447187
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 09:12 		I think Farnsworth is right--certainly Clemens coming in to pitch, then leaving the team, deprives the team of his clubhouse leadership and ability to mentor younger players.
 
153Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 09:23 		Agreed. The speculation thus far is that he'll likely not abuse the privelege and will travel with them for the most part but I have my reservations.
 
154ukula
ID: 454491514
Fri, May 18, 2007, 09:24 		The
 
154ukula
      ID: 17456187
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 12:29 		9 1/2 GB
 
155Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 13:52 		Now in USA Today: Giambi Says Steroids Didn't Help Him Hit Homers

"That stuff didn't help me hit home runs. I don't care what people say, nothing is going to give you that gift of hitting a baseball." -- Jason Giambi on May 16, 2007

Then on ESPN Page 2: Giambi Wanted Strength of 100 Men

"Jason, which superpower would you want most: the strength of 100 men, the ability to fly, turn invisible or shoot fire out your rear end?
Giambi: I think I can already do the last one. Probably the strength of 100 men.

You're about the first one to say that. Almost everyone else picks invisible.
Giambi: No, strength is more practical. It would be such an advantage in this game." -- Jason Giambi in the summer of 2001
 
156Perm Dude
      ID: 2447187
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 13:56 		When I read Giambi's quote yesterday, I wondered "why, exactly, did you take it, then?" Maybe he just wanted a reduced sex drive.
 
157Razor
      ID: 2107611
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 14:06 		Giambi, like all baseball players, are ego maniacs. They all want to believe that they have some specialized skill (which they do) that cannot ba aided or taught or improved upon by simply sticking a needle in their arm (which it can).

Giambi is about the last person in the game who should be calling anyone out. He should just shut up and enjoy the MVP he stole and the gigantic contract he cheated his way into.
 
158Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 14:13 		Yeah, and as I was reminded... the 2 HR's he hit in Game 7 of the ALCS that led to Aaron Boone getting the opportunity. Never should have happened. He admitted 2 months later in front of a grand jury that he was using needles and syringes earlier that season with the Yankees.

One of the funniest quotes of this article was that he said he enjoys chatting it up with Brady Anderson! of all people.
ESPN Page 2 full article
How did those conversations go?! "Hey Brady, you just hit 50 HR's out of nowhere. How'd you do it?"
 
159Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 16:29 		Its funny, its a bold show of character to stand up and apologize and to openly say that he was wrong for doing it. And I think its also bold (and right) to say that the whole league should have done as much a long time ago.

But then he ruins it with the stuff at the end of the article.
 
160Razor
      ID: 2107611
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 16:42 		I guess compared to finger wagging and vehement denials of steroid abuse, it's a bold show of character. Compared to anything else, it's the pathetic admission of cheater. This guy has the audacity to complain about rumors that swirl around him and getting tested a lot? What a joke. Lest we forget, Giambi was never punished by MLB.
 
161Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 17:18 		This guy has the audacity to complain about rumors that swirl around him and getting tested a lot? What a joke.

Razor I think when your mind is made up about someone you're going to invent a reason to attack anything they say. Is there more to the interview than what is in USA Today? Here's what the the article says:

"Unfortunately, (the rumors) are going to be a part of it. But that's OK. I'm probably tested more than anybody else. I'm not hiding anything," said Giambi, hitting .273 with five homers this season.

According to USA Today he also said that he's thankful that MLB revised the testing program. That doesnn't sound like someone who is bitter over being tested.

The way I read it, it sounds like he is bragging about the fact that he is tested as much as he is because is shows he's clean, regardless of the rumors. Maybe you think calling his situation (the rumors) "unfortunate" is complaining, but it just looks like a simple acknowledgement of his situation to me.

In the linked article, in which he supports Bonds, he says, about his apology: "I did what I had to do," Giambi says, "but it's like it wasn't enough. There were some articles that were personally attacking me. It was like, 'Am I that bad of a guy?' I always had time for the media and respected the media, but it was so hard to go through. I just kept telling myself that you can't take it personally.

"In hindsight, it helped me. I was wrong for doing that stuff. I know that. But (apologizing) is the best thing that happened. I got it out of the way so that people stopped asking me about it.

Get on him for cheating, for a contract he doesn't deserve, for denying that his and Bonds' numbers are inflated because they used. I'm with you.

But Regarding that other stuff, he's a guy who admits what he did, admits it was wrong, acknowledges that the situation he found himself in has been very tough but was of his own doing, that dealing with it head on was the right thing to do and that he is better off for doing so.
 
162¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 48421820
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 21:36 		To commemorate Roger's minor league performance, the NYY just posted their 22nd loss of the 2007 MLB season.

10 GB. Don't stop until you fall 22 behind the Sox ... no, make that 22 behind the Devil Rays.

Do it for The Rocket.

 
163ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Fri, May 18, 2007, 21:57 		The.
 
164Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Sat, May 19, 2007, 20:02 		11 games now, 11.5 if the rookie Hansack can find a way to keep up with Smoltz (not likely).

Cano and Damon were both looking great today. 3 errors and a big K in the 9th... Damon helps Wright get his second HR by letting it pop out of his glove over the wall. His arm is AWFUL. It was bad in his prime, but it worse than even Bernie's arm at the end there.

Speaking of that, Damon looks like a broken down shell of his former self. The Yanks are gonna get maybe 2 good years out of this contract and be on the hook for the $ after that.

Meanwhile Crisp is hitting nearly .300 the last month, stolen 9 bases and scored 22 runs. He's also playing tremendous defense making diving catches all over the place. He's really turned it on since the first 2 weeks of the year.

All the critics gave management a hard time on not going nuts to keep Damon, but I can personally say that I rather have Crisp right now rather than Damon. He's only 27, heading into his peak years and really seems to be coming on. He also is only a fraction of the cost of Damon.
 
165Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Sat, May 19, 2007, 20:07 		Come to think of it, those last month stats directly correlate to the triple off Rivera on that Friday night game. It seems like that game gave Crisp a major confidence boost. Along with the whole team I guess.
 
166Khahan
      ID: 50324299
      Sun, May 20, 2007, 10:06 		Great One, 164: I was glad to see Damon go. If he would have been looking for a reasonable contract, keep him. But his demand of 7 years (I think he ended with 5?) was ridiculous. I just kept praying that Theo wouldn't sign him to anything longer than 2 years, figuring he'd be broken down by then.

Looks like Theo didn't need me to tell him that to figure it out for himself.
 
167Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, May 20, 2007, 11:00 		Commissioner's office investigating Giambi's admission to USA Today - Yankees allegedly looking into voiding is contract.
Jason Giambi's admission to USA Today that he once used steroids could lead to the Yankees taking another shot at voiding his contract.

According to baseball sources familiar with the situation who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter, the Yankees will revisit the possibility of terminating Giambi's deal if it is determined that he used illegal drugs after they signed him to a seven-year, $120 million contract in 2001.

The commissioner's office is investigating Giambi's comments to the newspaper and will summon him to a meeting to discuss them. What he says in that meeting - or doesn't say - may go a long way toward determining how the Yankees proceed.

Giambi was quoted in USA Today on Friday as saying that he "was wrong for doing that stuff," in reference to having used steroids, and said that "what we should have done a long time ago was stand up - players, owners, everybody - and said: 'We made a mistake.' We should have apologized back then and made sure we had a rule in place and gone forward. ... Steroids and all of that was a part of history. But it was a topic that everybody wanted to avoid. Nobody wanted to talk about it."

Giambi declined to talk further about his comments as the Mets played the Yankees in the Subway Series this weekend but commissioner Bud Selig and the Yankees are most certainly interested in hearing what Giambi has to say, if anything. He may decline to talk at all on the advice of counsel.

If the Yankees do proceed, it will be the second time they have considered such a move. The club looked into ending its relationship with the player in late 2004 after the San Francisco Chronicle reported that it had viewed transcripts in which Giambi told the grand jury investigating the BALCO steroid scandal in December 2003 that he had used steroids and human growth hormone before signing with the Yankees and while playing for them in 2002 and 2003.

Had the Yankees tried to void his deal then, they would have faced considerable legal hurdles from the Players Association, as they would now. According to sources familiar with his contract, the deal contains language saying it can be voided if he uses illegal substances while with the club. But to win that battle, the Yankees would have to get past provisions in the collective bargaining agreement that the Players Association maintains supersedes those in a player's contract.

 
168blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 21, 2007, 14:51 		I'll trade you Jason Giambi and Alex Rodriguez for Ryan Howard and Wes Helms.
 
169JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 11:52 		Angels interested in Giambi
 
170blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 12:48 		I heard the A's were too, on the radio this morning. That would be interested, since they're not selling jeans.
 
171Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 12:11 		Giambi makes a fool of me for ever endorsing a word he says.
Jason Giambi failed a Major League Baseball-administered amphetamines test within the last year, which has subjected him to additional drug testing, sources told the Daily News. Giambi tacitly admitted last week that he has used steroids, but he failed to mention that he has been caught using other drugs.

Because Major League Baseball's amphetamines policy keeps a first positive test secret, however, it is unlikely Giambi will be asked about it when he meets with representatives from commissioner Bud Selig's office, possibly as soon as tomorrow on the Yankees' day off.

Giambi declined comment before last night's loss to the Red Sox, saying, "I can't really talk about anything."

Giambi's agent, Arn Tellem, said in an e-mail: "For the record, I'm not commenting."


 
172Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 10:39 		13.5!
 
173ukula
      ID: 124132913
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 14:17 		The.
 
174Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 14:20 		Can someone elaborate on what 13.5 means.
 
175ukula
      ID: 124132913
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 14:23 		The.
 
176Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 14:35 		Yeah, as my buddy (a White Sox fan) said, "I didn't hear you complaining about those atrocious calls against Youkilis when he was up with the bases loaded against Wang last week." He doesn't get those 2 calls and thats a very different game (partly cause Youk - with 45 hits the last 30 days - may have done something and partly because Ortiz/Manny are licking their chops on deck with runners all over the place...).

I was waiting for Torre to use Mike Holmgreen's "I knew we had tough opponent, but I didn't know we had to play against the referees as well!" speech.
 
177Perm Dude
      ID: 1240299
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 14:36 		The highest paid team in baseball is 13 1/2 games behind the second highest paid team in baseball.
 
178Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 14:41 		With the addition of Clemens, is this not the largest payroll in the history of baseball? Wow.
 
179ukula
      ID: 124132913
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 14:45 		The.
 
180Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 16:51 		The Yankees general manager must be, arguably, the worst in baseball. Spending the most money and being so far behind in the standings.
 
181rockafellerskank
      ID: 450122417
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 17:03 		What is "The." ?
 
182Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 17:15 		I could be wrong but I think anytime you see "The." you can assume it was a personally shot at someone and was edited by a moderator.
 
183ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 22:49 		Farn - you're incorrect. Someone just doesn't like my opinions and instead of having a healthy dialogue, they prefer to censor my posts. I don't make it a habit of personally attacking anyone, but I receive a ton of personal attacks -and those people are not censored - not much I can do about that.

The more they change my posts to "The." the more I want to post - funny how that works.

 
184Mötley Crüe
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 22:53 		The.
 
185ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 22:55 		MC - Where have you been, you don't return my calls!
 
186ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 23:02 		I think I'm going to start my own blog on TSN so everyone who has enjoyed my posts in the past can enjoy them again without the threat of censorship.
 
187Perm Dude
      ID: 1240299
      Tue, May 29, 2007, 23:15 		Are they censored posts, uke? Typically, the posts which are censorship-worthy would simply be deleted, not edited.
 
188¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 264112921
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 00:16 		What's the Over/Under on 22 games behind by the All-Star Break?


 
189ukula
      ID: 16432307
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 08:47 		Over 22 -150
Under 22 +130

Wave that flag LeMoose!!

Look at the bright side Yankee fans - the Devil Rays also lost so you're still in a tie for 4th - LOL!!!

How bad are the Yankees? Kansas City is only 13.5 back and Washington is only 13.0 back!!

Red Sox are on a pace for 114 wins - looks like they could challenge the record there.
 
190JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 10:07 		22 GB. NEVER!

As a Yankee fan, I now appreciate more just how good the Yankees were these last 12 seasons. It shows it is quite an accomplishment to make the post season each year they do it.

But I am not giving up yet. I'll hang my hopes on a comeback, similar to 1978 when the Yankees were 14 games back on July 17 (scroll to bottom of linked page).
 
191Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 10:11 		How much worse can it get? Today's NY Post (front and back cover no less) reports that Alex Rodriguez has been seen cavorting at a restaurant and then a strip club in Toronto with a woman who is not his wife. The pair were then seen entering the elevator together at his hotel.

Just what the team and that head-case needs right now. Gotta love that NYC media.

They're sure cursed this year. Between the crazy rash of injuries, slumps, listless play, bad calls and back page headlines, its just been relentless. Oh well. We're certainly due.

Of course it's not unprecedented for a team to turn it around and charge back from this point (or even from worse) and they are a forimdable collection of talent even if they don't look or play anything like it. But so far every time they've taken a step in the right direction you turn around and its two more steps back again.
 
192¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 404492916
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 12:02 		JeffG: "... As a Yankee fan, I now appreciate more just how good the Yankees were these last 12 seasons."

It's time to change the post-game music at The Toilet. Out with Frank Sinatra and Liza Minelli, in with Barbra Streisand:

Mem'ries,
Light the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories
Of the way we were
Scattered pictures,
Of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another
For the way we were
Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or has time re-written every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me, would we? Could we?
Mem'ries, may be beautiful and yet
What's too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget
So it's the laughter
We will remember
Whenever we remember...
The way we were...
The way we were...

 
193Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 12:19 		The Toilet

Thats not nice, Mam'zelle LeMoose.

 
194JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 12:35 		For all the bad raps the stereo-typical Yankee fan has been labeled with all these years by Red Sox and Mets fans, it is nice to see how hypocritical it all is now that there is a new front runner.
 
195Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 13:09 		Well, BoSox fans, anyway. Not sure that I've seen any or much piling on from Mets fans. But JeffG is right in that its pretty rare for NYY fans in this forum to rub anyone's face in it when their team is reeling.

Its also curious how Uke and LeMoose have nothing at all to say unless they can plant a flag in a rival when they're down. Maybe I was the only one to notice they were no where to be found last week, for example.
 
196Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 14:22 		Well I think you'll see it more from the Sox fans, cause they are the ones that are actually up 14.5 - so its partly the Yankees being bad, and partly the hot start of the Sox.

I see it Mets part of it everyday, we have a few Yankee fans here and the Mets guys come by and give them grief all the same. They just walk by laughing at them...
 
197Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 14:38 		I was really just referring to this forum. Baseball fans, like people in general, can be jerks. Take a look at the team forums in Yahoo sprots, for example. Normally I think there's a much better decorum here.
 
198Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 14:59 		I think it shows just how myopic the Red Sox fans are in that the continually refer to how far up they are against the Yankees.

They are up 11.5 in the standings.
 
199Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 15:03 		Yeah, but the Orioles aren't going to be there in a month - so gaining games on them doesn't really matter. The Yankees will working on getting this down to single digits by the ASB, so every game they can pile on now, will certainly help to fight off that law of averages.

And if its a matter of who you are competing with in the standings - then the Yankees are actually only 8.5 out, right? Of the Wild Card?
 
200Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 15:58 		Even though I am happy that the Yankees are losing, I wish that they would at least give Rivera some save opps. Could really help my fantasy team.
 
201Mötley Crüe
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 18:18 		Yeah, but the Orioles aren't going to be there in a month

Ooooh, low blow.

If we could play Tampa and Kansas City 40 times each, we'd win the Wild Card. Punk.
 
202Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 18:39 		Here's an interesting stat:

Four teams in mlb history have built a 10.5 game lead through the first 45 games. The first two were in the deadball era, 1902 and 1912. The last two teams were the '77 Dodgers and the '01 Mariners. Both teams were beaten in the postseason by the Yankees.

You know its bad when you have to look to convoluted odd facts like that for encouragement.
 
203Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 18:50 		Yeah, but the Orioles aren't going to be there in a month

I missed this. My response: Why not? Who would overtake them? If Clemens returns and pitches like last year, the Yankees will be in every game he pitches but lost most of them. That's not going to get them up the standings.
 
204Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 18:59 		the Yankees will be in every game he pitches but lost most of them.

I'm certainly not hanging the season on Clemens but its odd you seem to think they won't hit all year.

I do fully expect the Yanks to eventually rebound this year. The questions are to what extent and whether it will happen soon enough.
 
205Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 20:47 		Overall it isn't a matter of hitting. Overall the problem is pitching, which Clemens won't solve on his own.
 
206Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 22:57 		So you're saying its the bulpen that will lose Clemens' starts, even if he keeps them in every game he starts. They've definitely been inconsistant. I do believe its at least as much a product of Torre's mismanagement as anything else. If the rotation and offense round into form the pen will more easily fit into his mold of how he thinks they should work.

I'm finally latching on to the idea that its time for Torre to go. I've long felt that the talent level more than made up for his game management deficiencies. But with all the issues they've dealt with this year, I don't believe thats any longer the case.
 
207Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 23:38 		Well, I agree on the bullpen handling, but it certainly is a lot easier to handle a bullpen when you've got good setup men.

And part of the Yankees troubles with pitching stem from having to use guys who should be in the pen as fourth and fifth starters. It is hard to groom good pitching when you are always putting out emergencies.
 
208JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 01:02 		Just another day on the roller coaster that is the Yankee 2007 continuing saga that started with the Stray Rod headlines this morning and ended with A-Rod in the middle of another controversy. 5/30 game recap

Apparently Arod yelled something rounding the bases between during a ninth inning two out pop up that distracted third baseman Howie Clark enough to pull away when he was parked under the pop up and let it drop. The inning was extended and after a few more hits the Yankees scored 3 more than they would have had the ball been caught.

"I just said, 'Hah!' That's it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't." "I don't know what my intention was, I didn't say, 'I got it' or anything like that." - A-Rod

"I heard a 'Mine' call and so I let it go. It wasn't Johnny Mac. What do you do? It makes you mad." - Clark

"I wasn't sure that was allowed. If it is, maybe we'll keep on doing it." - Johnny Damon

"That's not Yankee pride right there. That's not the way they play. I thought it was bush league." - Jays manager John Gibbons

"I don't know what to feel for it. It's not like he said, 'I got it'." - Joe Torre
 
209Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 09:39 		I wouldn't call it a controversy. A bit bush, though.
 
210barilko6
      ID: 14424237
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 11:39 		The Yankee dressing room is filled with some good Professional Ball Playing guys, something like this wouldn't sit well in that room I bet. Even Damon and Torre didn't really support him publicly.

The Toronto media is trying to point out that what A-Rod did was actually against the rules, as the MLB rulebook states that no player should is allowed to confuse a fielder who is making a play. That is a hilarious rule.

This is A-Rod's second time, as he was involved in another baserunning bushleage play about 3 years ago against the Red Sox in the playoffs.
 
211barilko6
      ID: 14424237
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 11:41 		Man...disregard all my spelling and grammar mistakes in that post.
 
212RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 11:46 		I think he was saying "heeeeey batter batter swwwwwwwing batter". Or was it "we want a pitcher not a belly itcher"?
 
213barilko6
      ID: 14424237
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 11:47 		Watching the reply, he definitely yelled out "Mine".

Its Clark's fault. I mean its very bush league of A-Rod to do that, but I can't say it should be against the rules.

No wonder A-Rod is one of the most hated guys in baseball.
 
214Perm Dude
      ID: 334273110
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 12:08 		I would think that yelling "mine!" would be considered "hindering the fielder" and therefore an out for the runner, but only if the umpire heard him.
 
215Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 12:11 		Thats why you gotta whisper it! :)

Don't forget his good hard slide - but then subsequent pop up and throw an elbow into Pedroia's groin 2 weeks ago. This guy is ridiculous.
 
216Perm Dude
      ID: 334273110
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 12:29 		Yeah, it came from his move to New York. You should see him order in a deli.
 
217Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 13:21 		There was also the slap of the 1st baseman's mitt in the 2004 playoffs against Boston.

Not to say that it isn't bush, but players do get away with trying to distract the fielder all the time. Any time a catcher chases a pop foul to the opposing dugout, especially when the 3bman playing in goes after the same ball, the whole dugout is usually yelling I got it.
 
218JEsse
      Donor
      ID: 591162423
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:04 		the slide into pedroia was definitely appropriate and any decent runner should have done the same to break up a double play.

That's the extent of my defense of arod

calling out mine is bush, and if that's what the yanks need to make the playoffs (which we wont, it seems) then i don't want to continue to be a yankee fan. MITH- i hate to say it- it feels like blasphemy but i am agreeing-

torre needs to go.

ugg
 
219Perm Dude
      ID: 334273110
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:13 		I don't think anyone is begrudging ARod the slide. It was the popup-elbow-into-groin that was inappropriate.
 
220Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:19 		my words exactly... Don't forget his good hard slide - but then subsequent pop up and throw an elbow into Pedroia's groin 2 weeks ago.
 
221Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:20 		and I think ARod has lost the benefit of the doubt that it was "an accident" with all this other baserunning ridiculousness.
 
222Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:25 		Anyone that doesn't see him pop up and throw that elbow has blinders on... MLB Video of ARod Slide
 
223Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:48 		I don't think the check into Pedroia is on the same level. He actually went into his hip but more importantly those plays happen a lot more often. Its still cheap and doesn't make it right I know but a runner calling for a ball in the infield is different. Mike Francesa, who is totally unforgiving of last night's play, points out today that Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, and Don Baylor and others would check guys into the outfield regularly.

All that said, re last night's play, if its anyone but ARod on any team but the Yankees, there is likely no lengthy discussion like we're seeing. Two weeks ago at Shea with Jeter on 1st Posada lined out to Jose Reyes at SS. Reyes pretended to drop the ball but the ump caught him and called the play dead. Reyes laughed it off and nothing came of it.

Not sure where that fits in compared to other cheap plays discussed but I'm certain if ARod or Jeter pulled that we'd be discussing it here along with the rest of the country. It was barely noted in the paper (if it was mentioned at all) and don't know if it made ESPN.
 
224Perm Dude
      ID: 334273110
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 15:16 		Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, and Don Baylor...

Absolutely. Which is why they changed the rules to make it more clear you can't do that. Comparing the two isn't anything close to a fair comparison.

Reyes' play isn't the same as ARod's, though it is closer.
 
225JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 15:23 		I'm not a big supporter of A-Rod's "HAH" las night, but someone brought up this point....

Every player who calls A-Rod's move bush league, should think twice the next time they trap a ball and waive the glove around to the umpire as if it was a clean catch.
 
226Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 15:35 		they changed the rules

I wasn't aware of that. When was the rule change? What is the rule?
 
227JEsse
      Donor
      ID: 591162423
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 15:35 		i still think the elbow is a tactic to change the throwing angle of the fielder not to pummell his groin. i am not blind, but i think that is the intention and we can disagree.
 
228Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 15:40 		Don't understand how trapping a ball parallels this scenario. Most of the time an OF traps a ball they legitimately think they caught it.
They aren't doing something to try and inhibit the other team from completing a play. They are trying to convince the umpires (and themselves) that they caught it.

If A-Rod were taking his clothes off and dancing and screaming his head off to distract... that would be a parallel.

And yes... his name should be Lightning-Rod.
 
229¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 264112921
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 15:43 		This one's for all you lip readers out there ... the video's available on MLB.com or as a YouTube clip:



... "I was under the fly ball and I thought I was called off," said the 33-year-old Clark. "It wasn't Johnny Mac. I let it drop. I was under it and I heard a 'Mine' call, so I let it go.

"This is my 16th season, granted most of them are in the Minor Leagues, but that's never happened once. It happened tonight."

The typically softspoken McDonald barked at Rodriguez, who stood on third base and could be seen occasionally smirking as Gibbons came on to the field to discuss the play with the umpires. After the game, McDonald declined to go into specifics about what took place as Rodriguez ran between he and Clark.

"That's not really something I want to comment on," McDonald said. "I think it'd probably be better to look at the video to see, because I'm not exactly sure. You guys can draw the conclusion just from seeing the replay."

Television replays, which featured slow-motion close-ups of Rodriguez's face, clearly showed him shouting something out as he ran directly behind Clark. It appeared as though he yelled, "Mine," which is what Clark indicated he heard. Rodriguez had a different version of the story altogether.

"I was actually almost past third base [when I yelled]. I was surprised the ball dropped," Rodriguez said. "In a situation like that -- that play happens to me three or four times a week, except it's not at third base -- [it's] over by the dugout, foul territory. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't."


 
230JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 16:01 		From the video, I think he said "MINE" or "MAH", or made some sound that had the MMM sound in the front.

With the trap scenario, there are many times that the player knows he did not make a clean catch, but still tries to sell it to the ump.

The point about the parallel to the events of last night is that tecnhically faking a catch is akin to blatantly cheating that everyone accepts is part of the game. (Just like over reacting to contact in hoops or soccer to try to draw a foul call). I do not like what A-Rod did, and sincerely believe that most players would never consider such a move, but it is less like cheating than any faking move.

Should be interesting to see how the "friendly" fans in Boston will be all over ARod this weekend.
 
231¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 264112921
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 16:19 		Red Sox fans will be more interested in being all over Wang, Mussina, Pettitte and the corpse of the NYY bullpen this weekend. But you can probably expect a few chants of "Jocelyn" (allegedly, the name of Rodriguez's traveling companion) when #13 comes to the plate.
 
232Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 18:58 		My interpretation of the rules is that A-Rod should have been called out.

Rule 2
INTERFERENCE
(a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

Rule 7.08
7.08
Any runner is out when -
[...]
(b) He intentionally interferes with a thrown ball; or hinders a fielder attempting to make a play on a batted ball;
Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.


It's clear from the definition that confusing the fielder is illegal and offensive interference. As long as it's not enforced (like foreign substances on uniforms for pitchers) - a runner would be dumb not to take advantage of it when it could so clearly help his team.
 
233Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 11:05 		Teixeira's unhappy in Texas.

Yankees just put Giambi on the DL.

Wide speculation is that The rangers are looking to trade him for pitchikng.

Not including Hughes, the Yankees have an awful lot of young pitchers with talent throughout the system.

The Yankees really need a righty bat.

While most of Teixeira's home runs come when he hits lefty, his BA, OBP and SLG are much higher from the right side.

Teixeira would replace /Phelps at 1b and allow Damon to DH, at least until he gets healthy.
 
234ukula
      ID: 49513113
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:45 		I love how Yankee fans automatically assume that they deserve to get any player out there on the market and that teams will be tripping over themselves to trade with the Yankees. Whenever they have an injury or a guy just underperforms, Yankee fans go window shopping - "Let's see, Giambi's out, I'll take Teixeira, Fielder, or Pujols". Take a seat guys - you're WAAAAAAY behind and won't even make the playoffs this year. SSSSSSSeeeeeeeeeeeYaaaaaa!!!
 
235Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 17:15 		I love how Yankee fans automatically assume that they deserve to get any player out there on the market and that teams will be tripping over themselves to trade with the Yankees.

What Yankee fan made that assumption? I hope you aren't referring to me.
 
236Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 09:51 		Good win last night, ugly as it was. But if these two wins are going to be anything to build on they have to take this series.

I'd love to know what was in Proctor's head Everyone had to know that Wakefield was wild as hell and didn't likely hit anyone on purpose. The call from Posada wasn't up and in.

That said, I do think getting a little anger up could be very good for the team. I certainly don't want to see unwarranted purpose pitches but maybe Torre arguing calls and getting thrown out and the benches and bulpens clearing might bring out some of the fight they've been lacking.

You know there's a incident waiting to happen next time they play Toronto.
 
237¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 955626
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 17:34 		Clemens to Miss Series Against Chicago

BOSTON, June 2 — A season rife with injuries took another discouraging turn for the Yankees on Saturday. Roger Clemens, who was expected to start on Monday in Chicago, will miss at least the series against the White Sox.

... Clemens, who turns 45 in August, has made three minor league starts for the Yankees’ affiliates without any reported physical setbacks. But the groin, which troubled him off and on in his first five years with the Yankees, acted up during his last start, on Monday for Class AAA Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.
 
238Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 19:20 		Nasty collision between Lowell and Mientkiewicz, add another injury to the list. Most likly a concussion.
 
239Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 19:34 		#237: Dammit. I'm going to that game too.
 
240ukula
      ID: 309521021
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 23:01 		In Post 45 I was quoted as saying:

"2. C'mon Clemens is 45. He'll pull a groin in mid-July."

Boxman said "That's not even worth dignifying."

Case Closed.
 
241Khahan
      ID: 33459235
      Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 16:06 		Ukula...its not mid-July. ;)
 
242Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 10:58 		Fingers are crossed for Clemens. Damon working out at 1b looks ridiculous. But I guess it makes sense with out until possibly August. While Phelps has hit adequately (including .300 in 20 ab vs righties) they are definitely in the market for offensive help and if the Yankees are more easily able to land an OF than a 1b, that versatility will be a big plus. Also, while I wouldn't call him a liability, Phelps' glove is not strong. I tend to think Damon wouldn't likely be a downgrade. We'll see.

Last night was a very, very big win. They came back from a tough loss, pitched well in relief in a close game, came back from a deficit in the 8th inning, and scored off two of the best (if not the two best) relief pitchers in the league to tie and win and take the series in Fenway.

Hopefully they use the momentum to take advantage of the reeling Whitesox and overpower Pittsburgh before two tough series next week against the surging DBacks and very good Mets.
 
243Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 17:00 		This is hilarious!

In Post 45 I was quoted as saying:

"2. C'mon Clemens is 45. He'll pull a groin in mid-July."

Boxman said "That's not even worth dignifying."

Case Closed.
 
244Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 19:06 		Re: 232

7.08 doesn't apply here but Rule 2 is interesting. I think you can make a great case for that. Runner's interference would have been hilarious. Much like him swatting the ball out of the fielder's hands in the playoffs a few years back.
 
245Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 07:21 		Well, its a start.

Despite the implosion from rookie Matt DeSalvo Monday night they took 3 of 4 from Chicago and their hapless bulpen. I guess there won't be any doubt as to who loses his rotation spot to Clemens.

Thanks to the A's who, meanwhile, went 3-1 against visiting Boston, allowing the Yanks to pick up 2 games this week. It is encouraging to see the BoSox armor get dinked up a bit but that team can't be counted on to continue losing games.

If we are witnessing the beginning of a turnaround the Yanks need to pounce on the Pirates this weekend . The key pitching matchup is tonight, with both aces starting. Unfortunately I'll miss all three games thanks to a long weekend in Delaware.

Next week the opponents get tougher and winning both series against the DBacks and Mets will be a tall order, even if they are very hot.
 
246Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 10:24 		I thought Yankee fans were above being focused on the Red Sox and whats going on with them all the time? (as Sox fans are often accused of).

Then why is every Yankee fan I know all hooting and hollering about Shannon Stewart and Curt not getting the no-hitter? Like it was the highlight of their freaking day - not taking the series from the White Sox.
 
247Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 10:28 		I thought Yankee fans were above being focused on the Red Sox and whats going on with them all the time?

I don't know why you'd think that.
 
248Perm Dude
      ID: 2654987
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 10:32 		Yankees fans are focused on whoever is in first place, if not themselves.

If Baltimore was in first, you really wouldn't hear much about Boston from Yankees fans, IMO.

 
249Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 10:36 		Thats my point... most Yankee fans say they don't care whats going on in Boston. But I think its far from the truth and was illustrated yesterday.

I show up at my softball game with 3 Yankee fans warming up and they are all "Shannon Stewart! ah haha..."

So your saying its because they are in first and not because its Boston? My buddy Matt is an O's fan... so when he shows up at a game after Bedard (hypothetically) misses out on a no-hitter - they are gonna do the same thing?
 
250Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:00 		Great One I have no idea why you are coming to this forum to ask about the behavior of your Yankee fan friends. Why sould I (or Perm Dude - an Indians fan) speak for them? Would you have me ask Ukula to explain to me your opinions regarding the fan rivalry?

I really fail to see the hypocrisy you're straining to point out here. If you insist on an answer, my best guess is that many Yankees fans are sick of being piled on at every turn by Red Sox fans and are eager to jump on the first opportunity to give some of it back. But I don't know your softball mates, so who knows? Maybe they're bad Yankee fans. Or jerks. Or maybe you just react poorly to friendly ribbing.

I should probably just defer to my post 197.
 
251Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:14 		Well that was just an example of that group... Yankee fans also called in one after another to Mike & The MadDog going "man I love Shannon Stewart!"
 
252Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:25 		Like I said above, baseball fans, like people in general, can be jerks. And to date we've taken an awful lot from Sox fans this year.

As a comparison, how much did you hear from Yankee fans last season after the BoSox collapse?

That said, the vitriol from the two sides is not even. You will not hear NY Rangers fans at the Garden chant 'Boston Sucks' during a random January game against Tampa Bay, for example.
 
253Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:27 		I certainly know that Red Sox are your traditional "Sox fan and whoever's playing the Yankees" variety, and that they rub it in (when they get the rare chance lol...).

But basically, any Yankee fan I've known.. friends, co-workers, callers on radio shows, announcers etc seem to have this elitist attitude that says "we are the Yankees and we don't even bother paying attention to whats going on in Boston" and they are always saying "why are you so worried about whats going on in NY? worry about your own team/problems". I remember Kaye once discussing the rivalry a few years ago... and was like "is the hammer and a nail really even a rivalry?"

It's like when Ukula was asked if he enjoyed a Red Sox win or a Yankee loss more. Now for me, they are about even (I enjoy the win more, but am disappointed if it doesn't coincide with a Yankee defeat). A Yankee fan would never admit a similar point of view, but I think a little bit of that leaked out yesterday... its in there. They just won't admit it. Thats all I'm saying.
 
254Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:31 		I see where you are coming from on that, Boston lives and dies with the Sox (and is fixated on the Yankees) and its certainly a year round thing even at a completely different type of event... I'd bet during intermission of a Boston Pops show a Yankees Suck chant has happened more than once lol... though I did hear a Boston sucks chant at the Ring of Honor show in NYC in December. That was funny.
 
255Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:34 		And I still hear the talk about "The Boston Massacre" 5 game sweep... that was brutal the week after in particular.
 
256Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:37 		Thankfully though, every year... during every playoff series... of every sport... with a 3-0 lead... there is one graphic that comes up during Game 4. And it will always make me smile. Long after that 5 game sweep in a season where neither team was even in the World Series will be forgotten.
 
257Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:52 		Yeah you guys will have that one forever. It hurts but its not like there isn't the better part of a century's worth of breaks in our favor to counter with.
 
258JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 11:54 		[256] I know, and it still hurts when I hear it.

As I said in this thread a couple of days after the 2004 LCS ended, and it still rings true...

It is bad enough for the rest of our lives any time a team ever gets up 3-0 in any sport in a best of 7 format, we will have to deal with the announcer, media, whatever saying "..not since the 2004 New York Yankees has a team blown (blah blah blah)..."

Re Shillings no-no attempt and the post game comments being referenced, I do not agree that most real Yankee fans are fixated on the Red Sox like it is the other way around. Certainly as the team sitting in first place, we are hoping they lose games, while our team works it's way back to .500. It was a 1-0 game and the only reason I was rooting against the no hitter was because I was hoping the Sox lose. Other Yankee fans maybe just harbor a dislike for Shilling because of 2004 (and 2001).

I do not really buy into the types of fans that are happy more with one team's failures than their own teams successes.
 
259¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 53528515
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 13:32 		From Tyler Kepner's NY Times blog:

Until Boston’s Curt Schilling lost a no-hitter Thursday with two outs in the ninth inning at Oakland, the Yankees’ Mike Mussina had the dubious distinction of being the last pitcher to come so close to a no-hitter without getting it. The Yankees watched the end of Schilling’s game in the clubhouse Thursday afternoon. When Shannon Stewart broke up the no-hitter, the room erupted in cheers, players bursting from their seats and shouting.


38–21
 
260Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 13:55 		LOL

Mam'zelle LeMoose apparently thinks the Yankee players shouldn't get excited at the prospect of gaining another game on the division leader when the winning run came to the plate in the bottom of the 9th inning.

The opportunity to continue to gain ground remains as the Red Sox start a 3 game set tonight in Arizona against the DBacks, who have won their last 4 series and are 11-2 through those games. And of course should the Sox take the series in AZ, hopefully doing so will cool the DBacks off a bit as they then head into Bronx on Tuesday.
 
261Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 14:04 		I guess the NY writer didn't think so either. Because nowhere in that article does it say - "and the Yanks jumped for joy that the Sox might lose this game"... the whole article is about no-hitters... or non?-no-hitters for that matter.
 
262Perm Dude
      ID: 2654987
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 14:17 		So they are baseball fans, too.

If I didn't like a pitcher, you'd bet I'd be cheering if he lost a no hitter in the ninth.
 
263Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 14:17 		?

So you think the Yankees players were watching that game hoping specifically to see Schilling's no hit bid ended and that gaining another game in the standings must have only been an afterthought?

Surrre. Who cares about the division standings! Schilling just lost the no-no!

People will believe whatever supports their agenda.
 
264Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 14:26 		There's certainly no love lost for in the Yankee clubhouse for Curt Schilling. And I don't doubt for a moment there was satisfaction for some or most in seeing the no-no ended so close to the end. But if Boston was up 12-0 with 2 out in the bottom of the 9th, those guys (however many of them were there) wouldn't have even stuck around to watch the no-hit bid.
 
265Razor
      ID: 5952069
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 15:04 		You often excuse people of anti-Yankee bias, but I see more pro-Yankee bias here from you then anti-Yankee bias from everyone else. Of course the Yankees were celebrating Schilling losing the no-hit bid, and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with them being in first place. Do you think they'd have jumped for joy if a Red Sox reliever gave up a hit in a 5-4 game in the 9th?
 
266Perm Dude
      ID: 2654987
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 15:09 		I think the fact that ukula is an anti-Yankee pretty much dooms that argument however, Razor.

Besides which: Are you saying that wanting Schilling (or the Red Sox) to lose is pro-Yankee bias? Or that rooting for Schilling to get the no-hitter is an anti-Yankee bias? I say it has nothing to do with the other.
 
267Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 15:19 		You often excuse people of anti-Yankee bias, but I see more pro-Yankee bias here from you then anti-Yankee bias from everyone else.

? Please. Pro Yankee bias is to be expected from a Yankee fan.


Do you think they'd have jumped for joy if a Red Sox reliever gave up a hit in a 5-4 game in the 9th?

I don't know. I certainly don't dismiss the idea out of hand. Obviously working a no no makes it more exciting. But I really don't understand this bias charge. Is it that you think I'm making excuses for Yankee players cheering aginst the Schilling and the Red Sox? Is that something they are not supposed to do?
 
268Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 16:32 		I have more or less conceded the AL East to Boston. Even if I didn't, to me the thing that the Yankees have to do first and foremost is get their own house in order before worrying about the Red Sox, Tigers, or anyone else. If they start playing better baseball, the rest will shake itself out. If not, make your golf plans.
 
269Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 16:58 		But if Boston was up 12-0 with 2 out in the bottom of the 9th, those guys (however many of them were there) wouldn't have even stuck around to watch the no-hit bid.

So they can wait a minute or two and find out if this guy gets a no-hitter or not.....and they are just going to leave. What is there....a couple no-hitters per year. Even less that one has a chance to see on live TV, and these guys are just going to leave. I doubt anybody would agree with statement.
 
270Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 911552612
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 18:02 		Building 7 I don't think they would have even hung around for the last few innings.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Regardless my whole point is that I fail to see why its at all significant in any way that they cheered when Stewart got his hit.
 
271¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 05281018
      Mon, Jun 11, 2007, 08:01 		Streaks aside, records since May 18 (using ukula's second post 154 as a reference point):

BOS ... 12-10
NYY ... 12-10

That's 22 games off the schedule and ... how much ground made up in the AL East?


40–22
 
272Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 09:32 		Of course a team's progress in working itself out of a rut is measured from its low point - not an arbitrary Ukula post at Rotoguru. To suggest that as of Monday the Yankees' outlook was no better than their low point (or no better than 5/18, for that matter) is obvious denial.


But I'll humor Mam'zelle LeMoose - since May 18th:
BOS...13-11
NYY...14-9

1.5 games made up by the Yankees in that time.

And I'll note the progress made in a much shorter period of time, using the aplicable point of reference - May 29 - the Yankees' low point of of the season in record 21-29, winning % .420 and games back 14.5. Coincidentially, that date was also the Red Sox high point at 36-15 and .706 winning %:

BOS... 5-8
NYY...11-2

# of games made up as those 13 games came off the schedule: 6.

On the night of May 29th, Mam'zelle asked about the odds on 22 games back by the ASB. This is not a prediction by any means, but I'd bet that right now, the odds on the Yanks in 1st place by the ASB are better.

Not that I'm claiming victory or anything, there's still 3/5 of the mountain left to climb and I doubt most of it will come as easy as the last couple of weeks have been.

But it'll happen. And just a few more games made up and Uke (predictably absent lately - of course, the spineless fair-weather-antifan pig) and Mam'zelle will know it, too.
 
273Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 10:28 		i am a yankee hater, and i don't ever attempt to hide it. i spout off loudly and proudly.

that being said, the Yankees are the hottest team in baseball right now, and the Yankees are one of those teams that are extra dangerous once they start clicking on all cylinders.

and whether they catch the BoSox isn't really relevant - making the playoffs is, although they are nearly a decade removed from their peak of the late 90s, they're still a dangerous team.
 
274blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 10:36 		But alas, there are other good teams in the AL, most notably the Tigers and the Indians. The Wild Card bar might be set at 95 games, and a 92-win season from the Yankees might fall short. How unlikely did 92 wins seem on May 29?

The hottest team in baseball, by the way, is the Philadelphia Phillies.
 
275Perm Dude
      ID: 53523148
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 10:57 		Depends on what you mean by "hottest." If you are talking about wins in a row, that would be the Yankees. If you are talking about "most wins in the last ten games" that would be, well, the Yankees.

Perhaps you mean "highest average player temperature" or "best looking players?"
 
276Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 11:12 		The Yankees have also won their last 4 series, including the current one against AZ. The Phillies did just sweep the White Sox but before that lost 2 of 3 this past weekend in KC.
 
277Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 12:36 		blue hen: The hottest team in baseball, by the way, is the Philadelphia Phillies.

PD: Perhaps you mean .... "best looking players?"

Well, at the midtown bar that we watched the Phillie/Giants game, I can tell you he was especially fond of Jimmy Rollins' tight pants.
 
278JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 13:34 		The Yankees are hot, who cares if they are "the hottest" or not. They are finally 1 game over .500 (while Boston is 18 over). I do agree with on point in the blue hen post [274] and his reference to the 95 win mark. With the hole the Yankees dug through the end of May, my thinking is that from today on, the Yankees have to go 63-36 the rest of the way to get to 95. I care more about the 95 win mark and less about scoreboard watching Boston every day (although the BoSox fans can feel free to continue to remind us of their record in this thread from time to time if it makes them happy).

Another tough stretch coming up. After this afternoon's matinee with Arizona, they have 3 with the Mets and 6 interleague games on the west coast, where the Yankees traditionally have issues. The good thing is, I feel real confident that they will stay in stride the rest of the year now that they have their pitching healthy and in order.
 
279Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 15:02 		Can the "hottest" team in baseball lose a game 17-5 3 games before being called the hottest?
 
280Perm Dude
      ID: 53523148
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 15:08 		They're too sexy for this game...
 
281Razor
      ID: 5952069
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 15:23 		I wouldn't call the Mets tough by any stretch of the imagination. They are playing bad, lifeless baseball. The Dodgers were slumping, but then the Mets came to town and LA got well in a hurry.
 
282JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 15:42 		[281] Sure the Mets are in a slump right now, but anytime the Mets and Yankees meet it is a tough series. Even though it is supposed to be a regular series game, they are played under such a bigger microscope. The distactions become draining on the players, and the games are more intense. Since interleague began, whether the Mets are a sub-.500 team or the NL's best, I'd always rule it a 'tough' series.
 
283Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 09:31 		Bring on the Mets!

I really do prefer to see games against top rivals played while both teams are in a groove, playing very good baseball. But with all the catching up left to get into the playoff contention mix (and to the top of it) I welcome a Mets team in such a rut. Especially since the Mets enjoyed the advantage of playing the Yanks while they were reeling last month in Shea.

If the Yankees sweep, the Mets and Yanks will have the same record after Sunday's game. Who would have thought that likely 2 weeks ago?

That said the Mets are a much better team than they've been this month and could snap out of it at any time. Definitely not a series to take lightly.
 
284¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 155391111
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 11:52 		[272] Of course a team's progress in working itself out of a rut is measured from its low point - not an arbitrary Ukula post at Rotoguru.

Arbitrary, shmarbitrary ... I took the first mention in this thread of a "games behind" figure and applied the 22 that seems to carry so much significance for Clemens. The next 22-game measure will end just before the all star break.


41-24
 
285Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 12:13 		Well my apologies then! What could be a less arbitrary measure than the first mention in this thread of a "games behind" figure (even if the first mention was actually 7 days before that)?
 
286¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 155391111
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 15:22 		I didn't join this thread before May 18 but, sure, going back a week and counting from the games completed through May 10, with NYY at that time seven games behind the Red Sox:

BOS ... was 23-10; after the next 22 games: 37-18; current record: 41-24
NYY ... was 16-17; after the next 22 games: 24-31; current record: 33-31

I also attributed some significance to the fact that May 18 was the date of The Rocket's first minor league start of yet another "comeback."

How much ground has been made up in the AL East since May 10?
 
287Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 15:37 		LOL. By the Yankees? Far less than has been made up since, say, April 7th, 1969, the first day of games in the AL East. Why 4/7/69 is any less relevant than 5/10/07 or 5/18/07 is beyond me.

The point of measuring from a specific date to the present is to show current trends. I don't know of any current trend in the AL East relevent to this thread that began on 5/10 or 5/18. The relevant dates re: this discussion are 4/2/07 and 5/29/07
 
288¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 155391111
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 16:17 		Roger Clemens 2057
 
289Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 16:48 		OK that was kind of funny.
 
290ukula
      ID: 15511512
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 16:51 		Let's go Mets!!!

"Oh, my goodness gracious!" Waldman gushed in the middle of the seventh inning. "Of all the dramatic things, of all the dramatic things I've ever seen, Roger Clemens standing right in George Steinbrenner's box announcing he is back!"

That's what you get when you hire an old jewish woman to broadcast baseball games - what were they thinking?

 
291Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 17:30 		Red Sox "fans" like Ukula are one of the truly great things about being a Yankee fan.
 
292Perm Dude
      ID: 57533157
      Sat, Jun 16, 2007, 00:02 		Makes me want to root for the Yankees as well.

If Clemens returns and pitches like last year, the Yankees will be in every game he pitches but los(e) most of them.

So far, holding true...
 
293Khahan
      ID: 5654181
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 14:58 		Ukula is not a Red Sox fan. He is a closet Yankee fan. He is so fixated on what the Yankees are doing its ridiculous.

My only concern about the Yankees is the fact that the season is not quite half way over. We're in June when Boston normally starts to fade and NY starts to pick up. Seriously, out of the past 8-10 seasons, how many of them have seen Boston ahead of NY at the All-star break or shortly before the All-star break?

 
294RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Sat, Jun 23, 2007, 02:50 		Just saw a funny stat:

The Colorado Rockies have more wins against AL East teams (9) than the yankees do (8).
 
295Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 11:09 		Yanks lose 2/3 from the lowly Giants... the Sox knock Peavy into his shortest start of the season. Nice...

At least "Dog'd Up" at 11:35 PM on NBC was entertaining last night... Russo was in rare form sticking it to Francessa.
 
296RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 15:50 		Interesting Jeter stat:

At the time of his 33rd birthday, Pete Rose -- who would go on to be the all-time hits leader -- had 2,167 hits, with a .312 average in 1,705 games. Derek Jeter has 2,250 hits, with a .318 average in 1,751 games.
 
297Perm Dude
      ID: 41572614
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 15:54 		Still ahead for Jeter: Betting on his own team.
 
298Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 15:55 		Would be nuts to have Jeter go for the hits record and ARod the HR record on the same team at the same time, huh?
 
299Razor
      ID: 5952069
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:00 		A-Rod will not be a Yankee then almost certainly. Jeter might be, but I doubt he has another ten 200 hit seasons in him.
 
300Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:04 		Players with the most hits by age 33 (Baseball-Reference.com only lists the top ten. Don't know where to look for where Rose and Jeter rank.):

Rk Player H PA
1. Ty Cobb 2856 8776
2. Rogers Hornsby 2705 8632
3. Hank Aaron 2618 9212
4. Robin Yount 2602 9852
5. Mel Ott 2528 9747
6. Jimmie Foxx 2516 9053
7. Sam Crawford 2485 8746
8. Willie Keeler 2470 7634
9. Vada Pinson 2453 9130
10. Stan Musial 2418 8149
 
301Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:23 		I doubt he has another ten 200 hit seasons in him.

Obviously its unlikely that Jeter will reach or even approach Rose but he certainly doesn't need "another ten 200 hit seasons" to do it. Rose played to the age of 43. After the 1974 season in which he turned 33, he had 6 seasons with 175 or more hits. Of them, 4 hit the 200 mark.
 
302Perm Dude
      ID: 41572614
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 17:12 		I was living in Cincinnati when Rose got the record, and while the town was very, very happy for Rose, there was the impression that he was just sticking around for the record, and he probably wouldn't have even gotten it if he wasn't the manager too.
 
303Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jul 01, 2007, 21:40 		Sweet jeezis the Yankees suck.
 
304JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Sun, Jul 01, 2007, 22:35 		Imposter!
 
305Perm Dude
      ID: 1464918
      Sun, Jul 01, 2007, 23:24 		This is what is going to happen, so long as the Yankees continue to schedule MLB teams the entire season...
 
306JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 12:59 		This is going to be one of those soap-opera years. Bronx is Burning -Part II, I guess.

Scott Proctor is setting a bonfire of equipment in front of the dugout after Saturday's game.

The NY Post today has Mrs A-Rod as the front page Cover Story because she wore a shirt that said "F--- You" on the back to Sunday's game.
 
307Perm Dude
      ID: 2164428
      Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 13:02 		Oh, man, what a made-up story. A man left Yankee Stadium because he didn't want his son exposed to a curse word? ROFL! What was he doing there in the first place?
 
308Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 13:05 		Still only 8 wins in the AL East?! lol... Rockies still have more?
Well at least Clemens looks great. Got to pad his stats against those weak NL lineups. Now on to the AL...
 
309¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 4063187
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 08:06 		A Day in the Life of (Rehabbing) Curt Schilling:

 
310blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 09:45 		I'm quite neutral in this discussion, but I just want to point out that the Yankees are only six games out of the wild card in the loss column. Hardly dead.

I'd say it's pretty likely that both teams make the playoffs this year.
 
311Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 10:05 		Yes they definitely suck much less than at the beginning of teh month and earlier in the season. A win toniight or tomorrow will make this the 4th consecutive series they have won, 2 against playoff contenders Min and LAA.
 
312Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 10:15 		It was determined at the ASB that if they win every series from then until the end of the season (2 out of 3 in each series conservatively) and giving a split in each 4 game series that it only totaled 91 wins. Thats a pretty good measure because sure they may sweep a couple, but they'll probably lose a couple series' as well along the way so it'll even out.

Thats not gonna be enough to catch Cleveland or the Red Sox in my opinion, unless either one of them going into a serious tailspin.
 
313Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 10:31 		I don't know, GO, the Sox don't look anything like the powerhouse that they appeared (and Ukula and Mario boasted) early in the year. BoSox WP for each month:

April .667
May .714
June .481
July .500

Another interesting stat, the Yankees XW-L is actually the 4th best in MLB:

Det 55-36
Bos 56-37
S D 54-38
NYY 53-38

They are currently 8 GB in the AL East. The closest they've been since May 16th.

There's still a decent shot at the division.
 
314Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 10:40 		Yankees WP for each month:

April .391
May .464
June .577
July .714
 
315Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 10:44 		I tell ya the stretch I am worried about.. the Sox have to go back out to the west coast at the beginning of August while the Yanks are home against KC to start.

Another question, Boston already went out to play @Seattle... why are they going again?
 
316Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 11:48 		Updated July WP:
BOS: .438
NYY: .688

Updating the measure referred to in post 312:

Sox have 67 games left on the schedule. If they play those out at near their current overall WP of .589, they'll win another 39 games (39-28 = .582, 40-27 = .597) finishing at 95-67.

Yankees would have to go 47-22 (.681) to finish in a tie. They currently only have 68 games remaining on the schedule because no makeup date has yet been scheduled for rainout at home against Toronto in April. Those 68 games are broken down into 16 three game series and 5 four game series. Taking 2 in each three game series and 3 in each four game series would see them finish with a 95-66 record, presumably requiring the Toronto game to be played in order to see if the Yankees and Red Sox will need a 1 game playoff to determine the division winner.
 
317JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 13:44 		One game left not yet reflected in the standings for the Yankees is the 7/27 contuation of the 6/28 game where they Yankees lead 8-6 in the top of the 8th with two out and a runner on 2nd with the middle of their order batting.

The Tor@NYY rainout from April is scheduled for 9/24 by the way. It was an off day so they do not have to worry about a day/night DH and a game that week where they will need a 6th starter.

I look at 95 wins as the number they need to aim for to qualify for the 2007 post season (WC or div). At this point it means finishing 47-22 (.681) which is quite a mountain to climb to get to 95. Maybe Boston and Cleveland can help matters a little and play at a pace to win less than 95, but unlikely. Minnesota and Seattle will not reach 95 and Toronto and Oakland are starting to drift too much in the wrong side of .500.

Another way to look at this where it does not seem so daunting is that the Yankees are currently 6 games behind Boston in the loss column. The Yankees have Boston 6 more times on the schedule. So if they stay even or gain a few more games between now and the series with Boston, they at least have given themselves their shot at the division.
 
318Perm Dude
      ID: 54650208
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 13:55 		With 11 more games against the Tigers & Indians, plus six against the Red Sox, I'd have to say that they'd have to do much better against the tougher teams. The rest don't matter all that much.

In other words, 47-22 overall won't matter much if they split the games against the tough teams.
 
319Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 15:49 		Yeah around Aug 10th the sched gets pretty tough through the rest of the month; @ Cle, v Bal, v Det, @ LAA, @ Det, v Bos.

It does ease up a bit in Sept.

Overall though, of the 21 remaining series, only 6 are against teams with winning records.

 
320Perm Dude
      ID: 54650208
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 16:16 		I think we really just need to look at that stretch starting 8/16: 4 games @ home v Det, then out to LA, then 4 @ Det. Very difficult stretch. 11 games in 12 days against division leaders.

For the Yanks there is a lot of weaker competition before and after, but if they don't win 6 of 11 in that stretch they are about sunk.
 
321JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Jul 27, 2007, 11:10 		ARod sitting on 499 homers. BUT If he hits a HR tonight in the continuation of the suspended game from June, he actually hit HR #500 two days ago!

Alex may have already hit 500 home runs
 
322JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Wed, Aug 01, 2007, 13:54 		Arod's first home game in the attempt for #500 was last night. It is amazing how many camera flashes there were with every swing. I only had my cell phone camera last night so I do not have any "Species" quality snaps, but it is kind of a neat picture.

Warning track power this time. So close!

It is August. On to the dog days where they find themselves 7 in back of Boston for the East and within 3 of Cleveland and 1.5 of Seattle for the WC. Yanks only made a minor move at the no-waiver needed trading deadline, getting rid of the over used Proctor while they need pen help (addition by subtraction?), and stayed away from giving away too much in their opinion for the Boston-bound Gagne. I guess they think Joba Chamberlain could succeed in that spot down the stretch.

Make or break time. Cleveland and Boston are both on the schedule for August which are the bookends to 11 games with the Angels and Detroit.
 
323Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Aug 01, 2007, 14:00 		Weak! You can't even see the ball in the picture! ;-)

Cell phone cameras just suck....no two ways about it. And my digital camera is just a cheesy Kodak.....not like it's some high powered pro camera. It just helps to be close.
 
324Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Aug 01, 2007, 14:23 		This reminds me a lot of when Sosa was chasing Maris. I was at Wrigley a lot that summer and everytime he was at the plate the flashbulbs were blinding. It really adds to the atmosphere of the game. What an experience.

GO A-ROD!!
 
325Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Thu, Aug 02, 2007, 15:32 		So the Yankee fans booed Clemens off the mound today?
Oh my goodness gracious.
 
326Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 00:16 		As opposed to cheering after giving up 8 runs and 9 hits in 1+ innings? He's being paid over a million dollars per start. Those types of outings just can't happen, but if they do, expect the crowd to let Clemens know how they feel about it.
 
327JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 16:31 		The good news.... If the playoffs start right at this moment (after this afternoon's just completed win in Toronto), the Yankees are tied for the AL wild card spot. From their deep hole, they made it all the way back and are no longer on the outside looking in.

Divisionally speaking however, they are still 7 out in the loss column, they still need to go 34-17 (.667) to reach 95 wins while Boston just needs to go 27-24 (.530).

The Yankees did what they had to do in July thru this week against the sub .500 teams (KC TB CWS Tor Bal), on the weekend they will hit a point in the schedule where they play the teams (Det, Cle, Bos, LAA) also in the playoff hunt.

The hitting funk has ended, the bench (Duncan, Betamit, Molina, and Giambi or Phillips) is so much better now than it was about 6 weeks ago (Thompson, Phelps, Nieves, Cairo). The pen and rotation is basically still the same (minus Igawa, Proctor and Myers; plus Hughes, Henn and Bower and waiting for Joba). That is what will make or break this season.

A pennant chase after all. I'm giddy!
 
328Perm Dude
      ID: 137268
      Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 16:46 		If the playoffs start right at this moment (after this afternoon's just completed win in Toronto), the Yankees are tied for the AL wild card spot. From their deep hole, they made it all the way back and are no longer on the outside looking in.

Get your giddy out now. As I noted in #320 they have the make-or-break time coming up.
 
329Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 10:21 		True, PD, but Detroit's slump has changed the outlook considerably since you wrote post 320, a poor showing no longer means they are "sunk". Their cakewalk September sched means that even if they lose a couple of games in the WC race, their chances still look good.

But screw the WC! 6 games out of 1st and 2 series remain against Boston! Go Yanks!
 
330j o s h
      ID: 2172718
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 19:06 		But screw the WC! 6 games out of 1st and 2 series remain against Boston! Go Yanks!


I second that!
 
331rockafellerskank
      ID: 450122417
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 13:41 		4 games. I miss the Boston fan posters that have been absent as the lead shrinks. I was at the BAL/BOS game yesterday for the daily bullpen implosion. Gagne was a good pick up.

(disclaimer: not a NYY or BOS fan, just thought BOS fan was a bit premature)
 
332blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 13:57 		I'd still take Gagne on the Phils.

This pennant race is heating up, although most Red Sox fans I've talked to have a defeatist attitude right now. Didn't help that Millar Cowboy Upped against his old team.

The Yankees have really been playing on all cylinders and don't appear to have much weakness. But the Red Sox are still ahead and you'd have to expect Ortiz to suck less and Manny to be... Manny.
 
333Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 14:21 		Ukula and Mario are certainly M.I.A... personally I have just kind of been on cruise control the last few months (much like the real Sox) because despite this lackluster play of late, they still have the best record in baseball.

I pointed it out in post in post #315 - this was exactly the stretch I predicted it would get the closest. The Sox are finally at the end of this road trip and Yankees would be cleaning up on the bad teams all of July. Now they took care of the Indians which was impressive even without Hafner.. but I still think the Red Sox are the better team. Now they need to get home, regroup and get the ball rolling again. I firmly believe they will.
 
334Perm Dude
      ID: 337121310
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 14:32 		Yanks are 23-8 since the ASB. They are certainly hitting on all cylinders, but this season the Yanks seem wide but not deep. And while I was impressed with their wins at home against Cleveland (really, I was, especially the first two games), this is the part of the schedule where they are expected to win. Playing the White Sox, Toronto, KC, TB, Baltimore--if they don't build up against those teams they aren't going to get all that far.

pd
 
335JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 15:16 		The Yankees finished the part of thier schedule where they played predominantly non-contenders, which is what is now coming up for the Red Sox remaining schedule (except the games vs NY of course). They each have 45 games each, here is the breakdown.

Remaining opponents
NYY
Div - Bos 6, Tor 7, Bal 9, Tam 6
Contenders - Det 8, LAA 3, Sea 3
Sub .500 - KC 3

Bos
Div - NYY 6, Tor 6, Bal 7, Tam 12
Contenders - LAA 4
Sub .500 - CWS 4, Oak 2, Min 4
 
336Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 15:29 		two months ago, i said ...that being said, the Yankees are the hottest team in baseball right now, and the Yankees are one of those teams that are extra dangerous once they start clicking on all cylinders.

and whether they catch the BoSox isn't really relevant - making the playoffs is, although they are nearly a decade removed from their peak of the late 90s, they're still a dangerous team.

i still hate the yankees, but any playoff contender has to be concerned...
 
337¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 17751131
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 19:58 		Ukula and Mario are certainly M.I.A... personally I have just kind of been on cruise control the last few months (much like the real Sox) because despite this lackluster play of late, they still have the best record in baseball.

Granted, it is annoying to watch the Sox play the way the NYY did the first part of the season, but a lead is still a lead ... and The Rocket has been little more than a ridiculously overpriced version of Gil Meche.


70-47
 
338rockafellerskank
      ID: 450122417
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 09:04 		and The Rocket has been little more than a ridiculously overpriced version of Gil Meche.

I'm curious of BoSox fan's opinion of the $100M Dice-K investment to date? Just curious? He's having a "nice" year at 13-8 with a mid 3 ERA, but that's a lota moola.
 
339Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 09:17 		Dice-K
13-8
3.59 ERA
1.26 WHIP
159K's in 158 IP
BAA .240
Also has 4 L's and 2 no-decisions when he allowed
2 runs or less, so that hurts that record. That should easily be more like 15-6.

I wish he'd walk a few less people. Thats my only complaint. But also think that will come with time as he gets used the league and working with Varitek etc.

Oh yeah, and those stats would make him the ace of the Yankees staff, now wouldn't they?
 
340rockafellerskank
      ID: 450122417
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 09:24 		For $100M he should be the ace of any staff, IMO. I'm not bashing him. As a Pirates fan, I should be so lucky to have such an "ace"
 
341Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 09:32 		Thats 16 million a year... (I won't get into the whole only 6 million counts against the tax). Thats less than Pettite and Clemens and Moose make, no? And not much more than Pavano! Seems like those stats (especially for pitching at Fenway Park) was a pretty good investment to me.

Just imagine what he'd do against the NL Central. Just ask Clemens how much easier that was.
 
342Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 09:38 		Speaking of bad investments... why the heck did they acquire Matt Morris? Did SF pick some of that up?
And more importantly, are they gonna call up Steaven Pearce or what?
 
343rockafellerskank
      ID: 450122417
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 09:42 		Who was speaking of a "bad" investment? :) I didn't use the word "bad" in front of investment!

I have no idea what they acquired Matt Morris other than someone has dirty pics of someone's wife, maybe?

 
344blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 09:49 		Just want to point out that both Fenway Park and Yankee Stadium have played as severe hitters' parks in 2007. So don't give DiceK a pass there.

That said, his production's been pretty great and even for that price, it's hard to complain much.
 
345Perm Dude
      ID: 5975149
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 10:21 		It seems a little silly to try to compare Clemens ($28 million salary) with Matsuzaka ($6 million salary). I mean, really--which is the better deal?


 
346Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 10:24 		Agreed. For a big market team like Boston, Dice-K has brought a very good return on the Red Sox' investment so far. You can't expect a pitcher to do much better than that.

Also has 4 L's and 2 no-decisions when he allowed 2 runs or less, so that hurts that record. That should easily be more like 15-6.

That's a bit silly. 4 of his wins and 1 no-decision came in games which were not quality starts:
4/22 - 7ip/6er v NYY
4/27 - 6ip/4er @ NYY
5/03 - 5ip/7er @ Sea
5/25 - 5ip/5er @ TX
7/14 - 6ip/4er v Tor

For Dice-K I think his record reflects his effectiveness pretty well.
 
347Perm Dude
      ID: 5975149
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 10:31 		Yeah, he tends to get a lot of K's but when he stinks he really stinks. And I can't help but think that some of what hurts him (unfamiliarity with the players, language problems, new catchers) are temporary for him. His upside is tremendous.

On the other hand, it is a credit to the Yankees that they have succeeeded despite Clemens doing so poorly. Kind of ironic, given this thread's premise.
 
348Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 10:33 		I mean, really--which is the better deal?

The difference is not $28m - $6m, but clearly Dice-K has been the much better investment so far.

If Clemens has a strong showing in the playoffs and Dice-K does not, there'll be a solid argument to question that.
 
349Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 10:46 		I guess even if you include the posting fee lumped with the salary... and consider that Clemens is making nearly 2x as much, thats were the scrutiny of Clemens comes. No doubt about it... all that matters is a few starts in October. Just ask A-Rod.
 
350JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Aug 14, 2007, 11:01 		Phil Rizzuto passed away today :(
 
351Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Aug 23, 2007, 13:01 		Sox have averaged just 2.6 RPG in Dice-K's last 11 starts.

Thats fewer runs than Texas scored in 1 game last night.
 
352Seattle Zen
      ID: 86541617
      Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 22:05 		Hey MITH:

I couldn't find the thread where you made the argument, maybe you could give us a short synopsis of how Mike Mussina is headed to Cooperstown.

Man, last year sure looks like a fluke.
 
353Perm Dude
      ID: 19713279
      Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 22:12 		Yankees getting spanked tonight. Playing real competition makes them look a bit so-so.
 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 19713279
      Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 22:15 		BTW, how could Torre make Mussina heave 72 pitches in three innings?
 
355Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 07:46 		SZ
I couldn't find the thread where you made the argument
That's because you imagined it. The only discussion I've had this year about Mussina was here.

Boxman argumed that the Yankees must trade ARod and go after Carlos Zambrano.

His argument was that Moose had never won 20 games and that he and Pettitte are getting old. I found the notion of Mussina having never won 20 games as a reason to trade him very silly went on to list his accolades in comparison with every other notable AL East starter in his time. He compared very favorably. See post 67 there.

Of course I can't stand by everything I said in that thread (who can when referring to an April baseball discussion in late August?). For example, I also werote; "Moose had one of his best seasons last year. You don't go from that to retirement age in the span of one offseason." Moose sure is doing his best to to make that one look silly. Right now he sure looks like he should retire.

But I never made any HOF argument. Misconstruing an argument that Mussina is an adequate #3 starter for a contender (back in April) into a claim that he belongs in the Hall of Fame is typical of the very creatively assumptive criticism I often get here. Similar to (in that thread) as I made the case that the Yankee front 3 starters were the 3rd or 4th best in the AL (very quickly amended to "on paper"), PD lashed out at me for claiming the Yank's rotation was the 'best' in the AL, something I never suggested, much less said.
 
356Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 09:32 		PD
how could Torre make Mussina heave 72 pitches in three innings?

2 reasons: he wants to save his pen as much as possible for the Boston series and he was looking for any excuse to not remove Moose from the rotation.
 
357JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 11:10 		Yanks/Sox series finally here. Did not want it to be 8 out at this point as that leaves no margin for error, but hoping the Yankees can take care of business at home. Not going to be easy as both teams lined up the guns.

Pettitte/Matusaka
Clemens/Beckett
Wang/Schilling

At the very least NY needs the wins since Yankees are 3 in the loss column behind Seattle for the WC (who come in for a 3-game series in the Bronx next week) and have Detroit also on their heels.
 
358tastethewaste
      ID: 239161113
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 14:57 		Actually, I was looking for the same thread. Dont think it was this year but we were discussing people for the HOF and Mussina became the pitcher of topic. All I could find was a discussion about Pettitte making it back in 2003. Dont know where that thread went but funny me and SZ were both looking for it after last nights debacle.
 
359Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 15:07 		I don't recall ever making an argument that Moose should be in the Hall of Fame, but here is a thread from May of 2003 where Nerfherders apparently reasond that Moose was likely to make it and Razor and Seattle Zen agreed at the time that he had an outside shot.
 
360tastethewaste
      ID: 239161113
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 15:25 		Yeah, Im still looking as I dont know what couldve happened to it. I just remember saying the only way he gets in is if he got to 300 wins. When going through the threads it looks like I said the same about Pettitte, under the thread Team Analysis Florida Marlins. I definitely remember a thread about Mussina and Im glad SZ confirmed it because I thought I was losing it.
 
361tastethewaste
      ID: 239161113
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 15:26 		Of course I dont know what your stance on it was, I just remember you were in the discussion.
 
362Seattle Zen
      ID: 86541617
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 16:11 		I remember saying that MITH could easily keep his moniker, just changing it to Mussinainthehall, but I can't find the thread, either.

Yeah, I'm made some dumb statements about the HOF and future inductees in the past. Still would never vote for Craig Biggio.
 
363Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 11:48 		Mussina to be skipped in rotation - Thank GOD!

Ian Kennedy, who perhaps ironically has drawn some comparisons to Mussina (for his control-based, lack-of-radar-busting stuff), gets the call. 12-3, 1.91 ERA, 10.03 K/9, 0.96 WHIP in 146.1 IP between Hi-A Tampa, AA Trenton and AAA Scranton.
 
364Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 23:03 		Yanks take the first two. The win moves the AL East deficit back to 6 games, the the Wildcard deficit to percentage points (tied with Ms in the GB column) and also brings the season series against Boston to a tie at 7 wins apiece.

They absolutely had to take at least two games from the Red Sox to remain in contention for the division title. Finishing this series 9 or 11 games back would have pretty much been it.

Also, the Yankee dominance of the Sox' top 3 starters this year continues. Beckett, Schilling and Dice-K asport a combined 6.47 ERA with 78h in 57ip. In 9 total starts against NYY between them, only one was a quality start, pitched by Schilling on May 23rd.
 
365JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 16:20 		Nice sweep of Boston! Especially after the latest bad road trip. Three solid starting outings and good pen work from Joba, Mo and company. Still 5 GB is going to be tough to make up with games running out. Lets hope it gets to 3 with 3 in Fenway coming up in a few weeks and the Yankees have given themselves their chance. Yankees lead the season series now. If by some occurrence they finish with the same record and they also have a better record than the other wild card contenders, then the division winner is the one with the better head-to-head record. I'm still hopeful. Otherwise, Seattle is coming in next week and the Yankees can hopefully take a solid WC foothold.
 
366JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 17:26 		The road to 95 wins

Boston (80-54) needs to go 15-13 (.536)
3 vs NYY, 7 vs Bal, 6 vs Tor, 6 vs TB, 2 vs Oak, 4 vs Min.

Yankees (75-59) needs to go 20-8 (.714)
3 vs Bos, 6 vs Bal, 7 vs Tor, 6 vs TB, 3 vs KC, 3 vs Sea.
 
367Razor
      ID: 8824117
      Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 19:18 		Something tells me that no one will be racing to pay Clemens' ridiculous salary next year. Say goodbye, folks. He's retiring for good this time.
 
368Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 20:40 		Roger Clemens went for an MRI on his right elbow after giving up five runs in four innings and taking the loss to the Mariners on Monday.

According to Joe Torre, Clemens felt "grabbing" in the fourth inning. The Rocket is expected to miss at least one start, putting Mike Mussina back into the rotation.
 
369Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Sep 15, 2007, 08:27 		Another huge win last night. After a poor start by Pettitte and generally listless play from the Yankees through 7 innings, they slapped around Okajima and Papelbon for 6 runs over 1 and a third innings.

That said, this series is a bit overhyped. It really only becomes significant if one team or the other sweeps, since any other result changes the standings by only one game, not a very big impact at this point.

But this come from behind win prevents a sweep from the Sox, keeps the possibility of a Yankee sweep (and 2.5 games back by Sunday night) alive, replenishes the Yankees' momentum after Thursday's loss in Toronto and ensures (for those of us who care about such matters) that the Red Sox will not win the season series between these two teams.

Today is the marquee matchup, Wang vs Beckett.

Wang has fared a bit better aginst the Sox this year than Beckett has against the Yanks:

Wang: 3-1 3.24era 4gs 25ip 9er
Beckett: 1-1 5.49era 3gs 19.2ip 12er
 
370KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 48859158
      Sat, Sep 15, 2007, 10:05 		As a baseball fan, I'm loving this. These kinds of rivalries are what make sports great. I could care less who ends up winning the division, but seeing what the Yankees are doing certainly has made me pay attention to the AL East and watch to see what's going to happen next.

As a fan of the game, I wonder if last night's loss, particularly the way it happened, will affect the Sox in the coming days/weeks. It makes me wonder if the Yankees will get "revenge" for the 2004 playoffs. If nothing else, it'll be exciting to watch down the stretch.
 
371Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 15, 2007, 10:20 		The only way the Yankees truly even the score is if they come back from 3 down in the ALCS. If we have another Bos/NYY ALCS, I'd just as soon prefer the Yanks get no such opportunity at revenge.
 
372KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 48859158
      Sat, Sep 15, 2007, 11:29 		What it takes to even the score for a Yankee fan is likely a higher threshold than for the average baseball fan and rightfully so. While I don't think the Yankees winning the division this year would even the score, I can imagine it being quite devastating to the Sox and the team's morale.

Players will always say that it's just about making the playoffs, but when you had a lead as big as the Sox had, losing the division, or even having it come down to the last few games, would have to be a major disappointment.

Of course, there are still a lot of games to be played, but I would love for it to come down to the last few games as that would be a lot of entertainment for an A's fan who sees the AL West pretty much wrapped up... at least from the A's perspective.
 
373Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 15, 2007, 11:57 		...major disappointment

Definitely true. But not the crushing blow of being eliminated in the ALCS after a 3-0 lead.

Except perhaps for Ukula, as the 2007 season has fallen vastly short of his glorious expectations: that the '07 Sox would be the best team since the Big Red machine and contend for the wins record, that Beckett could win 30 games, that no yankee starters are good enough to crack the bottom of the Sox rotation, etc.

I do wish his posts hadn't been censored. They'd surely be doubly hilarious today.
 
374JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Sun, Sep 16, 2007, 10:42 		There is nothing, ever, that will get revenge or lessen the sting of the 2004 comeback. Not winning the division this season, or being the ones to knock Boston out in the ALCS for years to come. It happened, it will be in our consciousness forever. All that fans can do is move on.

I hate conceding the division, but with the split of the first two games, 5 back in the loss column with 14 to play is probably too much. Still, the Yankees need to win games to stay ahead of a very hot Tigers team so tonight's start by Clemens against the Red Sox is still huge.

Boston may have won the battle, but obviously October is looming and if both qualify for the post season all they won is home field in a potential ALCS.
 
375Khahan
      ID: 486552412
      Sun, Sep 16, 2007, 19:13 		I'm not so ready to claim victory on this season yet. If Boston wins tonight, its effectively over, even if not mathematically.

But if the Yankees win tonight I going to be worried. Its not that I don't have faith in Boston to score runs and win more games. Its just that the Yankees could rip off another 8 game win streak here and make it a 1 or 2 game defecit for the last week of the season. And who really knows how that will happen. I'm just going to sit back, root for Boston and enjoy their victory tonight over the Rocket. ;) Then I'll breathe a little easier.
 
376j o s h
      ID: 43821196
      Wed, Sep 19, 2007, 07:26 		2 1/2 back. dann!


:)
 
377JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Wed, Sep 19, 2007, 09:27 		A classless 'joke' IMO

Yankee's Shelley Duncan 'foul' autograph


 
378Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, Sep 19, 2007, 10:32 		Its funny if its written to some obnoxious twenty something drunk fan at the Cask and Flagon after the game... its not so funny to some little kid.
 
379filthy
      ID: 186293016
      Wed, Sep 19, 2007, 22:24 		he might be on to something though. curse of the gagne?
 
380Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 19, 2007, 23:25
1.5 games.
 
381Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 12:32 		After Friday's and yesterday's games it's not hard at all to see why the Jays swept Boston last week. They are playing really tough baseball these days.
 
382Khahan
      ID: 486552412
      Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 13:02 		After Friday's and yesterday's games it's not hard at all to see why the Jays swept Boston last week. They are playing really tough baseball these days.

That and the fact that Boston has not been playing tough baseball these days. :(
 
383¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 44811239
      Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 18:07 		Roger Clemens Officially Earns His $20 Million


92–64
 
384Tree
      ID: 548432310
      Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 19:07 		LooseMoose -

i love how you conveniently failed to notice the Yankees getting even closer.

if i were a Red Sox fan, i'd be very nervous. The Yankees are hot, and Sox are teetering on the edge of disaster.

as anyone who knows me will tell you, i hate the yankees with a passion. but, there's no denying that right now they are the team to beat.

And the Red Sox? if i'm an AL team, i want them in the first round of the playoffs.
 
385Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 21:39 		Playoffs are a totally different season. Seems last year that the Tigers "backed" into the playoffs, and they went to the WS.
 
386Khahan
      ID: 486552412
      Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 22:38 		This is seriously pissing me off. Making the playoffs as a WC team is unacceptable this year. Not winning the division would be disappointing.
 
387Perm Dude
      ID: 368192311
      Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 23:04 		The Sox's problem is that they are worried about the Yankees, tree. They need to go out there are play the games. The Yankees still need to win more games than the Red Sox.
 
388Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 08:32 		Post 384
The Red Sox are not "teetering on the edge of disaster." They've clinched a playoff berth. At worst, they're teetering on the edge of a major disappointment and embarasement.

The NL East has played out almost exactly the same as the AL East this month. Consider that both teams are 4-6 in their last 10. The only differences are that; 1. the Mets won yesterday, keeping their lead to 2.5 games and 2. the Mets haven't clinched anything yet I'd be much more concerned if I were a Mets fan than a Sox fan these days because if the Mets should fall out of 1st place, San Diego is only 2 games behind them and could potentially take the wild card. Really with the Mets current terrible excuse for a bulpen, I wouldn't mind meeting them in the 1st round, either.

Post 387
I have no idea how much time the Boston clubhouse spends worried about the Yankees. I tend to think it has more to do with Matsuzaka's dead arm, Manny and Okijima being out, Gagne breaking down the moment he arrived, Timlin failing in the setup role and the law of averages finally coming around to bite Wakefield.
 
389Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 09:00 		Post 384
The Red Sox are not "teetering on the edge of disaster." They've clinched a playoff berth. At worst, they're teetering on the edge of a major disappointment and embarasement.

i'm sorry, i disagree. the Red Sox losing first place in the division, after having spent the last 150 days there, would be a disaster, especially from a psychological stand point.

additionally, the team's pitching is struggling from a statistical standpoint, and that's a huge problem.

the Mets haven't clinched anything yet I'd be much more concerned if I were a Mets fan

no question. you won't get any argument from me. but we weren't talking about the Mets, so it wasn't relevant to the conversation.

 
390tastethewaste
      ID: 239161113
      Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 14:10 		Seriously MITH, where did the Mets come from? reading that post felt like listening to Michael Kay on the radio.
 
391Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 14:39 		re:385
Exactly - the Cards AND Tigers were disasters down the stretch and then got rolling in the playoffs. Who knows how it'll be this year.

And Tree, as far as wanting to meet Boston in the first round - not sure I'd want to meet any team throwing this years Cy Young award winner in 2 out of the 5 games. They still have the best record in baseball, right? They still clinched the first playoff berth of any team this season, right? They have been rearraninging and aligning their starters and letting players rest etc for weeks now to set everything up for the playoffs and Bucholz is heading to the setup role.
 
392Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 17:32 		390
Michael Kay on the radio
Yes yes very funny.

Re the Mets, it was a comparison. The two divisions have played out very similarly in Sept.
 
393JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 13:28 		The Yankees annual rookie hazing day takes place after the home game before the final road trip. Rookies usually dress in embarrasing outfits(insert Red Sox uniform joke here), for the bus and flight, and stay in costume thru dinner at the destination City.

This year because they had 11 rookies on the September roster, they did a whole theme instead of making two or three guys fly in drag. This year, they all dressed as characters from The Wizard of Oz.

hazing photos
 
394¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 26836256
      Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 20:26 		Clemens shut down for regular season

Balky left hamsandwich ... er, hamstring.
 
395Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 14:24 		LOL - Kennedy looks like a utility infielder compared to those big boys. Duncan makes Joba look not so big too.
 
396Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 16:41 		Even though A-Rod is not a rookie, shouldn't they have let him wear the tin man outfit.
 
397Perm Dude
      ID: 48532519
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 16:51 		ARod is having a kick-ass year. Say what you want about the Yankees, but he's looking at serious (and deserved) MVP consideration. Leading all of MLB in RBIs, HRs, runs, slugging. 3rd in total bases, 7th in OBP, 14th in SBs.

And he's played 155 games.
 
398Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 16:54 		That's right, I forgot. Keep it in the closet for another week. October is just around the corner.
 
399Perm Dude
      ID: 48532519
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 17:04 		At least he'll be in the playoffs. Mostly because of his hard in-season work.
 
400Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 18:54 		Has Arod not won an regular season MVP before and still done nothing in the playoffs? didn't he even do that as a Yankee? So yes PD, he - once again - has had a great regular season. That is a fact.
 
401Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 19:33 		After last night's games it looks like its time to concede the division title to the Sox. Congrats, Sox fans (and also Ukula), barring a collapse in the last week, your team has earned it with a fine season.

The Yanks' consolation prize (aside from playing themselves back into contention and their 14th straight postseason appearance) will hopefully be Cleveland finishing with a better record than LAA, meaning that the Yankees should avoid the Angels in the first round.

If that's how it plays out, I'll be rooting for Boston in that series.
 
402Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 19:49 		Some people make it sound like AROD is a lock to fail in the playoffs.

He has played in 4 playoff series with the Yankees. One was exceptional, one was below his career averages but still quite strong and two (the last two) were awful.

While his overall power numbers are down through those 4 series, he actually has a .275 ba in the playoffs as a Yankee.
 
403Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 20:29 		Numbers aren't the only thing in the playoffs. I hate the Yankees, and Derek Jeter. But I respect him because of the hustle he shows in the playoffs. The reason I refered to A-Rod as a tin man is that it seems to lack from him. The only thing that sticks out of a playoff series with A-Rod is him whaking a first basemans glove. Natural ability doesn't really require heart. But when you put the two together, the results are amazing.
 
404KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 228512619
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 20:51 		That's right, I forgot. Keep it in the closet for another week. October is just around the corner.

It always cracks me up how much importance people put in postseason stats. Seriously, do we think David Eckstein was anything more than a fluke with his .891 OPS in the 2006 WS? His previous WS, he had a whopping .674 OPS. How about his monster .266 OPS (that's PLUS slugging) in the 2006 NLDS?

But let's forget about last year's WS MVP, who's busy having a stellar year in 2007, and look at two notorious sluggers...

Slugger #1: 9 postseason series, .847 OPS (3-6)
Slugger #2: 9 postseason series, .888 OPS (7-2)

Slugger #1: 3 league championship series, 1.024 OPS (0-3)
Slugger #2: 3 league championship series, .647 OPS (2-1)

Slugger #1: A-Rod
Slugger #2: Mr. October, Reggie Jackson

For those of you about to scream about how Reggie Jackson appeared in more series than what I've listed, I know this. I've simply listed the first 9 and first 3 for both players for a fair comparison.

But, even with that, Reggie's 9 postseason series INCLUDE his monster performance in the 1977 WS. So, A-Rod has similar (and in the case of LCS, better) stats without a single monster series.

And if we choose to ignore the 1977 WS, Reggie Jackson sports a more A-Rod-like .471 SLG and .850 OPS.

Don't get me wrong. As an A's fan, I certainly don't root for the Yankees. But I think it's ludicrous for anybody with any supposed knowledge of baseball to knock A-Rod for what he's done in just 132 AB. Would anybody who wanted to express their extensive baseball knowledge say that A-Rod was having a pitiful season because he had a .782 OPS in 102 AB in May? Not if you didn't want to get laughed at.

A-Rod will gets knocked for "his" W-L in the postseason. How about the Yankees pitchers giving up 6 runs in Game 3 in last year's ALDS? 8 runs in Game 4? Completely A-Rod's fault, right?

Heck, A-Rod had a .894 OPS in the 2004 ALCS, but I guess Rivera not getting one last strike and the other pitchers making Game 7 pointless was A-Rod's fault.

I've knocked A-Rod plenty in the past, but to me he's just as present in the playoffs as almost any other player, including Mr. October himself through his first 9 series. Personally, I hope he has a monster playoffs and wins the WS just so people won't be able to ignore statistics and make blanket comments about him based on how his teams have done. Think: Peyton Manning.
 
405Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 20:52 		Yeah, sometimes even heart + talent isn't enough to overcome a slump. See the 1st two months of Jeter's 2004 season. If you think ARod's problem is that he plays without heart you aren't paying attention.

There's no denying that ARod has deserved your 'tin man' label in the last two offseasons. But, again, he's hardly a lock to fail in the playoffs.
 
406Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 21:04 		Post 134:
And when Cano isn't hitting for AVG, he is useless with no power

25 year-old Cano hit his 19th hr and drove in his 93rd rbi tonight. Among AL 2bmen he is in a 2nd place tie for home runs and leads in RBI. He's also in the top 3 in doubles, runs and batting average.

Useless...
 
407Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 21:27 		"But, again, he's hardly a lock to fail in the playoffs."

He seems focused this year, so I do expect him to have a good post-season. But that may have to do more with him being able to cash in on a new contract.

I find it funny the reaction I got to making a stupid joke comment. I hope some of you at least chuckled a bit.
 
408Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 21:54 		I did think it was funny. But at the same time he does have an unfair rep as a post-season failure.

Also I doubt the contract status has much to do with it. Cashman gas stated that he will not pursue ARod if he opts out. If that's true, he only need consider what other teams think of him and I can't believe that the Angels or Red Sox or Cubs (if they can afford him in the first place) will reconsider if he bombs again.

Personally, I don't even think he has decided whether he will opt out yet. If he chooses to stay, financial considerations aren't even part of the discussion.

I think it has a lot more to do with the laws of chance first, and where his head (not his wallet or his heart) is at second.
 
409Perm Dude
      ID: 48532519
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 22:35 		But that may have to do more with him being able to cash in on a new contract.

I may be wrong here, but I believe ARod is still under the 10-year contract he signed with Texas in 2000. Of he's playing for a new contract he's doing it three seasons too early...
 
410Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Sep 26, 2007, 22:50 		He can opt out after this season.
 
411Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 04:38 		Post 404: First of all, it's a little off topic in my mind to use ARod's entire career in the postseason as a point of reference. Only his Yankee postseason career should be looked at in this case. In 2004, his first year in the playoffs as a Yankee, he did well. However, in the last two years, he has been unbelievably awful. In 2005 and 2006, Arod was a combined 3-29, good for a .103 avg to go along with his 0 HR, 0 RBI and 2 runs scored. Arod has been great in the regular season, but what separates him from players like Ortiz in people's eyes is his ability to come through in the playoffs. You'd think that with the money he's making he deserves some blame after doing absolutely nothing in 2/3 of the years he's been a Yankee. I was actually worried that Arod was getting into his “playoff” form after not homering in 13 straight games recently and seeing his OPS drop 30 points. Hopefully though this year Arod can shake off his recent demons and put together a solid if not spectacular playoff display.
 
412KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 08:58 		First of all, it's a little off topic in my mind to use ARod's entire career in the postseason as a point of reference. Only his Yankee postseason career should be looked at in this case.

Why? Because it's more convenient to ignore the success he had with Seattle? There's no logical reason to ignore it. It's postseason experience, plain and simple. The postseason is about playing the best teams in the league in a short series. Why ignore Seattle where he was doing the exact same thing that he's doing in New York?

However, in the last two years, he has been unbelievably awful.

Really? Unbelievably? REALLY?

It's amazing that someone with such a clear interest in baseball can consider any batter (ANY batter) going 3-for-29 "unbelievably awful."

Ichiro Suzuki is widely considered to be one of the best hitters in MLB. You must consider this to be unbelievable since he had a stretch from Apr 28-May 7 this year when he was an unbelievable 5-for-34 (.147). And you must think it's even more unbelievable that anybody would consider him a good hitter when half those games came against the Royals and White Sox! We're not even talking playoff-caliber pitching!

You'd think that with the money he's making he deserves some blame after doing absolutely nothing in 2/3 of the years he's been a Yankee.

Interesting. I have him with an OPS of .888, 1.031, .914, and 1.058 in the 601, 605, 572, and 576 ABs he's had from 2004-2007. I wouldn't consider that "absolutely nothing." And the last time I checked, he was making that money BEFORE he got to a team that regularly makes the playoffs, meaning he's likely getting paid more for what he does in 600+ AB than what he does in the 15-30 AB he'll get in the playoffs.

I could be wrong, though, because A-Rod's done jack this year.

Hopefully though this year Arod can shake off his recent demons and put together a solid if not spectacular playoff display.

Laughable. Demons? Really? Did Reggie Jackson shake off his "demons" in the 1977 WS?

Or was it just the law of averages for a great baseball player?

Then again, I suppose we could all believe that David Eckstein is the one guy every team wants on their team for the playoffs, because he clearly shook off his "demons" last year.
 
414Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 14:52 		First of all, it's a little off topic in my mind to use ARod's entire career in the postseason as a point of reference. Only his Yankee postseason career should be looked at in this case.

Why? There's no logical reason to ignore it.

Because Yankee fans could not care less how he did in the playoffs with Seattle or any other team. Why would we? Should I say “OK, I’ll give Arod a break for doing jack the last two years in the playoffs because he did pretty well with the Mariners. I sure don’t see it that way.

It's amazing that someone with such a clear interest in baseball can consider any batter (ANY batter) going 3-for-29 "unbelievably awful." Ichiro Suzuki is widely considered to be one of the best hitters in MLB. You must consider this to be unbelievable since he had a stretch from Apr 28-May 7 this year when he was an unbelievable 5-for-34 (.147).

Maybe you don’t, but I think Arod’s stretch in the playoffs should hold a little more weight than Ichiro’s in the regular season. Everyone slumps, but if you go on 2 week slump during the regular season, you have the rest to make it up. If you go on a slump during the playoffs, that’s it.

You'd think that with the money he's making he deserves some blame after doing absolutely nothing in 2/3 of the years he's been a Yankee.

Interesting. I have him with an OPS of .888, 1.031, .914, and 1.058 in the 601, 605, 572, and 576 ABs he's had from 2004-2007.

You misunderstood me. I was referring to doing nothing in 2/3 of the years in the playoffs.

I’m sorry, but when you’re the highest paid player in baseball you have to perform in the playoffs. The point though is that Arod wasn’t just average the last couple of years, he was awful and I stand by that. I don’t know how one can say otherwise after looking at his stats the last couple postseasons.

Then again, I suppose we could all believe that David Eckstein is the one guy every team wants on their team for the playoffs .

Eckstein and Arod are apples and oranges. Eckstein’s job is not to hit HR and knock in runs for his team. Eckstein’s performance last year was like icing on the cake. If Arod doesn’t hit in the time that counts the most, he’s simply not doing what he’s paid to do.
 
415KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 16:15 		Should I say "OK, I'll give Arod a break for doing jack the last two years in the playoffs because he did pretty well with the Mariners.

Logic would say, "Yes." It would show you that he's VERY likely due to be Regular Season A-Rod anytime now in the postseason. You can choose to ignore it for the sake of your argument, but it weakens your argument, IMHO, to simply write off what he did as a Mariner.

That'd be like saying, "Look, A-Rod, we're not going to pay you based on your career or even based on the last couple of seasons. We're just going to pay you based on what you've done in the last month or so. How's that sound? Maybe based on what you've done in the last week?"

I think we all know the answer.

Everyone slumps, but if you go on 2 week slump during the regular season, you have the rest to make it up. If you go on a slump during the playoffs, that's it.

And that would be precisely my point. You act as if players can simply turn on/off a slump; like they can force themselves to not slump. Don't you think if that were the case that a.) there'd be a lot fewer slumps in the regular season and b.) there'd be a HECK of a lot better performances all the way around in the playoffs?

Just because A-Rod makes a lot of money and is a great baseball player doesn't mean he's God (or any other figure you may think could turn on/off a slump).

And if the great players CAN do this, then why couldn't Ichiro will himself to avoid a slump like the one I pointed out? Would he rather not have a higher AVG? Would he prefer a couple of 0-fers instead of getting hits?

You misunderstood me. I was referring to doing nothing in 2/3 of the years in the playoffs.

Nope, I understood you perfectly. That's why I added, "And the last time I checked, he was making that money BEFORE he got to a team that regularly makes the playoffs, meaning he's likely getting paid more for what he does in 600+ AB than what he does in the 15-30 AB he'll get in the playoffs."

You may choose to focus on 15-30 AB, but the fact remains that A-Rod is A-Rod because of what he does over 600+ AB per season, including the playoffs. Just average his playoff performances into the regular season and let me know if he's still great or not.

I'm sorry, but when you're the highest paid player in baseball you have to perform in the playoffs.

And he will, given enough chances. Again, I don't hear anybody complaining about Reggie Jackson in the playoffs, despite having similar numbers to this point in his postseason career. I think that anybody who complained about Reggie's lack of postseason prowess before the 1977 WS will either a) completely deny it or b) completely deny it.

Eckstein and Arod are apples and oranges. Eckstein's job is not to hit HR and knock in runs for his team. Eckstein's performance last year was like icing on the cake.

Again, you've missed the point. The point is that if David Eckstein can bring his bat for a single series, doesn't it show that a) any batter can show up for a single series and b) any batter can NOT show up for a single series and c) both can happen for a few series' in a row?

If Arod doesn't hit in the time that counts the most, he's simply not doing what he's paid to do.

LOL! No, seriously, LOL! Here we go again with "clutch" performances and all that other crap that sportscasters love to talk about as if it is measurable or even accurate. It's not enough for a guy to have a career .966 OPS. Nope, he has to hit when he's told to. Just like every other player can, right?

If Reggie Jackson was paid to hit "in the time that counts the most" and he had a career .846 OPS and he produced a .678 OPS in 11 Championship Series', including a .286 OPS in 1973, a .347 OPS in 1977, a .200 OPS in 1981, and a .478 OPS in 1982, then why is he called Mr. October?

Oh yeah, because of a single series: 1977 WS.

One series made a legend and you're griping about what a 31-year-old, with many postseasons likely ahead of him, has done in just a handful, despite his postseason career almost matching that of the legend to this point?

Honestly, that's funny stuff.

I seriously can't wait for A-Rod to go off in the playoffs sometime in the future so that all his detractors will have nothing to complain about. You certainly don't hear "Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy can't win when it counts" anymore, do you? How about Barry Bonds? Can he perform in the playoffs? Did his 2002 postseason change things?

The list goes on and on and on and on for players who have been said to not be able to perform in the "clutch" or the playoffs. And, given enough chances, most of them prove everyone wrong by simply waiting for the law of averages to take affect.
 
416Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 16:28 		Being a part of the playoffs in Seattle and the pressure and scrutiny of the playoffs when you hit cleanup for the The New York Freaking Yankees, "the most renown sports franchise in the history of...." or whatever Micheal Kay blabbers on about to the YES network viewers --- two completely different things.

In Seattle they were just happy to be there. In NY its get it done or else the weight of the whole city will swallow you up. And since that dreaded Game 4 of the ALCS in 2004 - when the pressure was finally cranked up a notch - A-Rod has come up woefully short... time after time... can he quiet some of that this year? absolutely. But 3 straight years ended on a sour note with him being prominently involved. Thats why Yankee fans are still a bit cautious.

 
417Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 17:20 		That's correct GO, and that's a lot of what I'm trying to say and what you're missing KKB. Say what you will about Eckstein and Reggie Jackson and Ichiro and whoever else, it doesn't matter in this case. All I am trying to say is that Arod has been a major disappointment the last couple of years in the playoffs and the spot light will be on him this year to see if he can come through. I'm obviously not rooting against him. I am not saying he is a bad player or anything, so you need not tell me his career stats, because I know what they are, but it has nothing to do with my point.

I and other Yankee fans do not rationalize Arod's postseason performance the last couple years by saying "it's ok, he still has had a great career", or "so what???, slumps happen!" I am also not saying that he will fail again this year, but just that he has the previous couple years. There is no denying that fact and that was my main point.
 
418Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 17:32 		His overall playoff stats in 2004 were solid too (he along with all the Yankees beat up on the injured Schilling and all padded their stats in that 19-8 game) - but you can't just lump everything together - as I pointed out, once the Red Sox started "The Comeback" he disappeared in those final 4 games, punctuated by slapping Bronson Arroyo's glove in that infamous play. That seemed to carry over into the following two playoff campaigns where he has been M.I.A.

Unfortunately, I expect this to average out this playoff season, not good news for Yankee haters. And frankly a good playoff will probably lead to him re-signing which is the last thing I'd want to see. C'mon ARod... Chicago is lovely! :)
 
419Khahan
      ID: 486552412
      Fri, Sep 28, 2007, 23:20 		I can finally breathe easy. GO BOSTON!!!!
 
420JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Sep 28, 2007, 23:21 		The Red Sox are now officially the AL East champions. Considering how far back the Yankees were and the fact they also qualified for the post season, I did not expect it to be as much of a shot to the gut as it was. Enjoy it Red Sox fans! We'll be hopefully seeing another NYY/Bos ALCS in about 10 days.

Would not be surprised to see the Red Sox still focused more on NYY then their own LDS matchup and award the extra day off to Cleveland ;)
 
421Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Sat, Sep 29, 2007, 14:23 		Looks like they shut down Bucholz, probably for the best, don't want to turn him into a Prior/Wood scenario. But man... he would have been useful! Don't really have a counter for Joba right now.
 
422Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Sat, Sep 29, 2007, 14:25 		And one thing Francesa pointed out I thought was interesting... of the last 10 losses for the Yanks in the playoffs - not one of them was because of the bullpen (unless it was Rivera, but he's not the question mark in the bullpen) but I'm talking about the supposedly weak middle relief that Joba etc is supposed to solve.

I think what that says is that it still comes down to starting pitching.
 
423Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 29, 2007, 14:53 		Actually in the 2004 ALCS Paul Quantril lost game 4 and Esteban Loaiza lost game 5. And in the 2005 ALDS Aaron Small lost game 3. But its still a fair point. That said, of the six Yanks' starters who lost those other seven games, four are no longer on the team: Jon Lieber, Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright and Randy Johnson. The other three games were lost by Mussina (2) and Wang.

I think it safe to assume that with the additions of Pettitte and Clemens and the availability of Hughes in long relief, they have improved in this regard as well.
 
424Perm Dude
      ID: 4846306
      Sun, Sep 30, 2007, 12:00 		GO's point might have been slightly larger than that. A RP can lose the game for a team but still not take the loss. And, a weak BP will cause a manager to hold onto starters longer than he would otherwise.

That all said, I think the Yanks are pleased to be playing the Indians, even with the Indians' better bullpen.
 
425Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Sun, Sep 30, 2007, 21:26 		Don't think any of those were in the last 10 losses either that I was talking about but of course thats was an arbitrary sample anyhow.

I think the point was that every Yankee fan I know has been on this tangent of "this year will be different cause now we have middle relief" and Francesa (and I) were pointing out the last 10 losses suffered weren't the result of the middle relief blowing it. It was the starting pitchig getting blown up (and 1 Rivera blown save I think).

No doubt having Randy and Wright gone is addition by subtraction but I still don't trust Moose or even Clemens for that matter. And Wang is such the "Ace" that they are scared to pitch him on the road. They need to quit babying him and let him sink or swim in a Game 1 and Game 5 where an ace should be.
 
426Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Sun, Sep 30, 2007, 21:48 		of the last 10 losses for the Yanks in the playoffs - not one of them was because of the bullpen

Was looking at previous season's postseason box scores because that would be a pretty interesting stat if true, but I saw that Aaron Small took the loss in 2005's ALDS vs. the Angels in relief of RJ.
 
427Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 11:08 		Don't think any of those were in the last 10 losses either that I was talking about

Francona was referring to their last 10 playoff losses, right? Their last 10 playoff losses were 3 in the '06 ALDS, 3 in the '05 ALDS and 4 in the '04 ALCS. Of those 10 losses, 7 were attributed to starting pitchers. So unless I misunderstand him or you, he is mistaken.

But like I said, his point is still a fair one. The Yanks' greater problem in the last 3 playoff series (during which the last 10 playoff losses occurred) hasn't been the bullpen nearly as much as its been the rotation.

And the point PD (round-aboutly) makes is also a fair one. When you have a deeper pen (as the Yanks do compared with the last three series), you're able to go to your relievers earlier and are less reliant on your starters to eat up innings. Hughes' availablity in long relief could be key.


Wang is such the "Ace" that they are scared to pitch him on the road... let him sink or swim in a Game 1 and Game 5 where an ace should be.

Not sure where that comes from. Wang is starting game 1 in Cleveland. Being a groundball pitcher, Wang is naturally much less effective on turf but Jacobs Field is natural grass. In 10 road starts this year on grass, he's 7-1 with a 4.16 ERA. In his 4 starts on turf, he's 2-2 with a 7.29.
 
428Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 11:17 		Well until now, everything I had heard the last month had him going in Game 3 cause they don't want to pitch him on the road. Perhaps they are going to finally give him a shot, but I believe the made the same decision the previous two years, rearranging things (from the mouth of Torre) to get him the home starts and avoid pitching him on the road in a big spot.

I am glad they are finally giving him an opportunity to prove he's an ace instead of coddling him.
 
429Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 11:20 		And yeah, I don't really know about the losses, I assume the WFAN staff got it wrong then. Thats just what Russo and Francesa were discussing. I didn't really care enough to verify.

On a WFAN related side-note - anyone else hear Boomer and Craig Carton holding open pitching tryouts near Shea Stadium on Friday morning? that was hilarious...
 
430Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 11:38 		I believe the made the same decision the previous two years, rearranging things (from the mouth of Torre) to get him the home starts and avoid pitching him on the road in a big spot.

I don't recall that but I suppose it could be true. Last year Wang, as the ace of the staff, started game 1 of the ALDS at home against the Tigers. Game 2 (which Mussina started and lost) was also at home two days later so it doesn't appear there was any monkeying with the rotation there.

Looking at Wang's 2006 game log, he pitched every 5th or 6th game from early July on so it doesn't appear his rotation schedule was altered to avoid any games in the regular season, either.

I don't know of anyone who would call Wang the ace of the '05 staff (he was 8-5 and a rookie) so I didn't bother to check that season.
 
431Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 11:42 		Sorry, meant to write that wang pitched every 5th or 6th day in 2006.
 
432Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 12:44 		Should be interesting to see if Sabathia can buck his NYY trend of a 7.13 ERA lifetime.....but interestingly he hasn't faced them since 2004! I guess that lifetime ERA has a little less significance!

Regarding Wang, the fact of the matter is that he is an ace at home but horrible on the road. The home/road splits are terrible, despite him going 9-3 on the road. His ERA is over 2.00 higher, his BAA is .65 higher and WHIP is 0.37 higher. The Yanks will have to win a 5-4 game at best if they hope to take game 1.
 
433Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 12:55 		Sabathia being a LHP certainly helps too. But if this thing winds up in the hands of Borowski and the Cleveland bullpen thats trouble (and we know the Yankee lineup will be taking pitches like crazy to get CC out of the game).
 
434Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 12:58 		he is an ace at home but horrible on the road.

I don't quite agree, Species. He's been horrible on artificial turf. But take out his 4 road starts on turf this year and his numbers aren't bad at all. Still not as good as at home (where he has been exceptional) but certainly not a liability, either.
 
435Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 13:01 		I could see the turf being a problem for a ground ball pitcher. Thats interesting.
 
436JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 11:58 		Yankees ALDS 25 man roster:

Pitchers (11)
Roger Clemens, Joba Chamberlain, Kyle Farnsworth, Phil Hughes, Mike Mussina, Ross Ohlendorf, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Jose Veras, Luis Vizcaino, Chien-Ming Wang

Batters (14)
OF - Bobby Abreu, Melky Cabrera, Johnny Damon, Shelley Duncan, Hideki Matsui, Bronson Sardinha.
IF - Wilson Betemit, Robinson Cano, Jason Giambi, Derek Jeter, Doug , Alex Rodriguez.
C - Jorge Posada, Jose Molina.

Interesting choices with 3 September callups on the post season roster - Sardinha, Ohlendorf, and Veras.

No LHP in the pen. Notables from pen left off: Ron Villone, Edwar Ramirez, Brian Bruney.

Moose has not been named G4 starter yet, other option is Hughes, but based on Clemens status, both could get starts.
 
437Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 12:05 		Speaking of post-season rosters, I'm trying to figure out why the heck Francona carried 3 catchers?! And you could even make a cash to leave out Mirabelli since Wakefield isn't 100% yet and was left off of this round at least.
 
438¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 59954314
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 13:38 		GO, it's an organizational decision, not Francona's call alone. The Sox chose to carry 10 pitchers for the ALDS (one of the advantages of opting for the extended series in the first round, i.e., day off between games one and two). Ellsbury and Lester became "injury replacements" for Donnelly and Clement, who were on the active 25-man roster but DL'ed as of August 31. Of the remaining players on the active 25-man roster, Cash was the only non-pitcher eligible for the playoffs.
 
439Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 15:56 		Red Sox Division Clinching fiesta...
 
440Perm Dude
      ID: 529947
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:36 		Interesting about the Yankees carrying no LHP in the pen. Maybe because only two of the Indians hitting starters are lefties?
 
441Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 23:07 		I saw Grady Sizemore, Hafner and Victor hitting lefty tonight.. I assume there is a switch hitter mixed in there, but not having a LHP with Hafner there doesn't seem like good strategy.

Are they not bringing a lefty to get out Ortiz if they play the BoSox?
 
442Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 23:09 		Wang really stepped up tonight and showed he was the Ace that all the Yankee fans claim him to be.
 
443Perm Dude
      ID: 46942420
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 23:23 		VMart & Cabrera are switchhitters. I guess the Yanks didn't think it worth the effort, since those two can just switch around.

That said, Sizemore hit righties 12 points better in 2007. Hafner actually hit righties 3 points less.
 
444Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 00:06 		Nice to see GO keeping up with Red Sox fan tradition of worrying as much or more about the Yankees as he does his own team! Dude give it a rest!

YOU are the only person in this thread to talk about Wang being our ace....don't throw everyone on this board in with WFAN callers.
 
445¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 50926414
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 00:49 		Quite a few writers/news sources -- not simply WFAN callers -- share the opinion that Wang is the NYYs' "ace." Just a sampling:

latimes.com: On Thursday, they started their ace, 19-game winner Chien-Ming Wang. He started 30 games in the regular season, giving up more than one home run once. Yet he gave up a home run to Cabrera in the second inning and to Martinez in the fifth, and in all the Indians ripped him for eight runs and nine hits in 4 2/3 innings.

boston.com: Chien-Ming wang has had a terrible outing here tonight. Wang, the ace of the Yankee staff, who has won 19 games each of the last two seasons, had trouble keeping the ball down, especially here in the fifth and has allowed three runs after the Yankees had pulled to within one run in the top of the fifth.

newsday.com: Yankees ace Chien-Ming Wang turned in one of the worst starts of his career at the worst possible time. With the Yankees facing possible Cy Young Award winner C.C. Sabathia in Game 1 of the American League Division Series, Wang was awful. He allowed eight runs in 4 2/3 innings Thursday night as the Yankees were shelled by the Indians, 12-3.

nydailynews.com: So the Indians can beat the Yankees after all. After getting kicked around in all six regular-season meetings with the Bombers, the Tribe pounded Chien-Ming Wang and belted the bullpen, handing the Yankees an embarrassing 12-3 beating on Thursday night at Jacobs Field. Kenny Lofton, the former disgruntled Yankee, led the way for the Tribe with four RBI. ... Wang got a double play ball after hitting Grady Sizemore to lead off the game, but the Indians kept coming at the Yankees' ace, using a Hafner walk and singles by Martinez and Ryan Garko to tie the game at 1.
 
446blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 01:04 		Yeah, Yankee fans do claim him to be their ace. I work with quite a few of that kind.

Simply put, I think the Indians have better pitching than the Yankees. Starters, relievers, they're better at every phase. Well, except closer, but if they use Borowski with big leads and save the Rafaels for important situations... The Yankees are certainly better than they have been at times this season, but the Indians have better pitching.
 
447KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 08:43 		Wang really stepped up tonight and showed he was the Ace that all the Yankee fans claim him to be.

So, who is San Diego's ace? Clearly, it's not Peavy.

I love how people with such an in-depth knowledge of baseball give so much credit to just a single game.

Personally, I'll take a back-to-back 19-game winner on my team any day of the week... even with a mediocre ERA and WHIP.
 
448Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 09:14 		Yeah, I may be the only one in this thread, but as Mario and Mr. Hen pointed out... the vast majority of the Yankee fans and the media hype Wang as a #1 ace type pitcher.

And its not a single game for me - its the fact that he can't pitch on the road, has medicore stats and can't strike anyone out. Yet because he plays on the right team he racks up the wins. This one game was just a microcosm of that belief.

KKB - the point is that the 19 wins are the only good thing. We could put, I don't know... Ted Lilly on the Yankees and he'd win 19 games as well. He's not an ace though.

And its not so much that I care about them... its the Yankee fans that come by my desk everyday (and family, friends etc) the last two months hyping how unbeatable they are and how they have all their ace's lined up etc and those people have been nowhere to be found the last 2 days. But I'm sure they will show up on Monday when these series (likely) get evened out. Thats just a sample of "Joe Public" Yankee fan.
 
449JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 09:26 		It is only game-1. There is alot of baseball left to play. Pettitte takes care of business tonight, evens the series at one, and everyone can calm down.

(I believe since 1995 for all best-of-5 post season series the Yankees have been involed in, most of the time the game 1 winner lost the series, I can think of 5 Yankees LDS off the top of my head 1995 2001 2005 2006 and one vs Texas not sure which year. A couple of these the series winner lost games one and two, but lets not go there)

I am among those Yankee fans that really appreciates what Wang brings to the team and am among those who do consider Wang their ace. Mainly because out of the entire staff, he is capable of going deep into games, for the most part keeps the game close even with a non-ace like ERA or WHIP, and can erase baserunners with a ground ball.

He is not someone who dominates a game but he gets wins.

Last night he gave up too many fly balls which is the unhappy indicator that he did not have his best stuff. I'll have plenty of confidence in him if he pitches G4 on short rest (with Pettitte available for full rest if it goes to a G5).

BYW - CC had a pretty interesting night. 6 walks but he was blowing alot of strikes past people. The Tribe pen looks pretty formidable too. This has the makings of being a very tense series.

Also (I hate to admit this), I found myself in the unusual position of rooting for Boston the other night. I really want to see another NYY/Bos ALCS, and not because the Angels have their number.
 
450biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 09:34 		Did you somehow miss Pettitte's last outing, JeffG?

I'd be extremely worried.
 
451Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 09:40 		Jeff - you bring up an interesting point. Do you think Wang having a few extra days rest HURT him since he's a sinkerball pitcher?
I remember when the Sox had Lowe, he always pitched better when his arm was tired and the pitches just stayed lower and seemed heavier.

And I completely agree that both these series are far from over, nobody is getting swept here on either side.
 
452KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 10:08 		KKB - the point is that the 19 wins are the only good thing. We could put, I don't know... Ted Lilly on the Yankees and he'd win 19 games as well. He's not an ace though.

The 19 wins may be the only good thing, but that's a pretty good thing, don't you think?

As for putting Ted Lilly on the Yankees and him winning 19 games, is that anything like putting this former true ace on the Yankees? He never won 19 while with New York, despite striking out a lot of batters and, in 2005, posting a good ERA/WHIP.

It's easy to SAY any pitcher can win 19 for the Yankees. It's another thing to DO it.

I'm not saying I'd want to have Wang on my fantasy team or that he's the ace of aces, but us fantasy baseball managers just like to apply the term "ace" to guys with Pedro Martinez stats circa 1999. Anything less than that is "just" a pitcher.

In real life, if you're a back-to-back 19-game winner for ANY team, you're very likely going to be their staff ace. Also, Wang has the lowest ERA/WHIP of any regular starter for the Yankees.
 
453Perm Dude
      ID: 5593356
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 10:21 		Ace or not, Wang got the call in game 1 and didn't come through. Regular season and playoffs are two different things. Obviously Torre was hoping Wang would be a playoff ace, but that didn't happen.

As for game 2, the Tribe sports almost all righties & switchhitters (except for Hafner & Lofton). It'll be interesting if Pettite can get the Yankees back on track, but it won't be easy, particularly with Carmona on the mound.

Looking over Carmona's stats, there are some interesting things that jump out:

-he was 8-4 both at home and the road this year

-home ERA was a full run higher than his road ERA (3.73 vs 2.73) but he held opponents to a 10 point BA difference at home (.249 @ home vs .259 road).

-the Yankees have hit him well in the two games (.292) and he's 0-1 against them this year.

-watch for his 1-0 counts. Opponents are hitting .392 against him at 1-0.
 
454KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 10:40 		Oh, don't get me wrong. Wang was bad yesterday. REAL bad. I'm just saying that the stats show he's the Yankees' staff ace right now. With one game, everything on the line, and all pitchers available, I see them turning to Wang.

It certainly doesn't mean that someone else can't step up and be the ace of the playoffs. We've all seen it happen many times through the year. And, realistically, the Yankees will need someone else to step up if they're going to make it through the first round.
 
455Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 10:41 		re:452 (wow, 452 posts?! lol...)
Of course that ace was 100 years old when he arrived, no? Would he not have won that many in his prime?
 
456Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 11:42 		I don't understand post 445. Why would anyone not consider him the team ace? Aside from aside from leading the rotation in wins, he, as KKB points out, led the team with solid ERA and WHIP stats, stayed away from big innings by allowing the fewest HR/start and he's been the most consistant starter (except when on artificial turf - which they don't have in Cleveland). This was his 3rd postseason game and the first for him that was not a quality start.

He's obviously not the archetypical ace - most teams don't have that, but he is the ace of the staff and for better or for worse, that's who you go with on game 1.
 
457KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 11:59 		Of course that ace was 100 years old when he arrived, no? Would he not have won that many in his prime?

We can speculate all we want. The fact is that he didn't and Wang did.

And many would argue that Randy Johnson, according to his stats, hit his prime in his late 30s anyhow.
 
458Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 12:12 		In my opinion those numbers were aided by facing NL lineups - just like Clemens.
 
459Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 12:28 		In my opinion those numbers were aided by facing NL lineups - just like Clemens.

You mean like how Lilly's numbers are currently elevated?

Plenty of mediocre to good pitchers, Jimmy Key, Mussina, Jeff Weaver, Javy Vazquez, Jon Leiber, Randy Johnson, Jaret Wright and plenty others have never managed to win 19 games with the Yankees in recent years. Dave Cone, Dave Wells and Roger Clemens each pitched four full seasons for the Yanks and each only managed it once. Pettitte did it three times in ten seasons. Wang has done it twice in two.
 
460Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 12:57 		re: Lilly - yes exactly.

But its also different now then the Cone/Key years when you have the current offensive powerhouse of an All-Star at every position (or the ridiculousness of Giambi and Matsui off the freaking bench).

Randy Johnson showed you can win 17 games with an ERA north of 5.00! So I'm pretty sure a solid pitcher like a Lilly could have 17-19 even with his ERA over 4.00 in the AL East.
 
461Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 13:14 		Randy Johnson showed you can win 17 games with an ERA north of 5.00!

Even on the Yankees, that's the exception and not the rule. If all it took was a 5.00 era, they's have 4 or 5 17-19 game winners every year.
 
462KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 15:20 		Randy Johnson showed you can win 17 games with an ERA north of 5.00! So I'm pretty sure a solid pitcher like a Lilly could have 17-19 even with his ERA over 4.00 in the AL East.

Again, speculation. Wang did it. There are PLENTY of examples of other good/great pitchers who haven't won 19 games in back-to-back seasons, like Wang has done, who probably "should have."

By the way, did you know that Wang has very similar stats to Roy Halladay this season?
 
463Perm Dude
      ID: 5593356
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 15:33 		Shows that pitching for a team with some offense will inflate some stats.
 
464Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 16:15 		Yes because heaven forbid that any non-Yankee fan (well besides KKB) could ever concede that Wang really is an effective and consistant enough pitcher to occasionally have a season comparable with Roy Halladay.

Just imagine how great Halladay's ERA, WHIP and quality start ratio would be if he were in the Bronx!
 
465Perm Dude
      ID: 5593356
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 16:38 		He was in the Bronx twice this year--no decision both times.

:)

Of course, the pilfering of quality pitchers from second-tier teams have helped the Yankees stay afloat for decades.
 
466Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 16:51 		Quality talent in general - not just pitching.

But if you take any issue with that at all then you must also acknowledge and credit the organization with stepping away from that formula and developing minor league talent. Cano, Wang, Cabrera, Hughes, Chamberlain and possibly several others will form a nice home-grown core for the next generation of Yankees.
 
467Perm Dude
      ID: 5593356
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 17:03 		Oh, I have no problem with that, MITH. I've said before that it is no coincidence that their great success in 1996-2000 was a direct result of Jeter, Williams, Pettite, etc that were all from the Yankees system (and a direct rebuttal that the Yankees merely "buy" their championships) And farm systems tend to by cyclical--the Yankees seem to be turning it around after not having a very strong farm system for a few years.

But the usual knock on the Yankees (which I believe has a lot of merit) is that during their "down" farm years they keep afloat through the purchase of top-level players from second and third-tier teams. Of course this often means that the Yankees merely win the division each year instead of the league and world series.
 
468Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 18:54 		Also no coincidence that Steinbrenner wasn't involved when Jeter, Bernie, Rivera etc were coming up through the ranks.

And it was a year or two ago that he conceded that they needed to try and go with Cashman's plan of good players like Cano, Wang etc. They are MUCH better now because of it then they were in say 2002-2005 when they were trying to win with all those over the hill free agents.
 
469Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 19:38 		The version I've repeatedly read is that Steibrenner always preferred to keep the focus on trading for and signing established talent, arguing that the amateur talent is just too unpredictable an investment. So it goes, relatively little attention was paid to developing young talent and the system was very dry until George's suspension.

This account makes sense whenn considering that between the callups of Mattingly in '82 and Jeter in '95, the only notable players developed in Yankee farm system were Jose Rijo, Doug Drabek, Bob Tewksbury, Jay Buhner, Bernie Williams, Al Leiter and JT Snow. Throw in Roberto kelly and Sterling Hitchcock if you insist. Not a bad group of players, but its not nearly enough over 13 years. Only Kelly and Bernie enjoyed their heyday as Yankees. And of course the list of touted rookies that never panned out is much longer.

The thing I don't understand is that even in the 1980s, the cost of developing amateur talent must have been far less than signing established free agents. Certainly by the late 80s, right? So why wouldn't any club do it's best to maintain a strong farm system even if it spends gobs of cash obtaining established players?
 
470Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 20:32 		Add Hal Morris to that list. Doubt I missed many (if any) more.
 
471tastethewaste
      ID: 33929420
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 22:24 		I dont know if youre counting after Mattingly but throw in a couple of Irish kin, Willie McGee, drafted in 1977(traded for the great Bob Sykes) and Fred McGriff, drafted in 1981 (traded for Dale Murray and Tom Dodd)
 
472Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 22:37 		Brien Taylor?!

That all reminds me of the great Mets trio of pitchers Izzy, Pulsipher and??? Funny how it never seems to go according to plan.
 
473Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 23:12 		The ??? is Paul Wilson.
 
474Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Oct 06, 2007, 00:13 		Wasn't aware the Yanks drafted Mcgriff. Though he was really a product of the Blue Jays farm system. He was traded by the Yanks in 1982 and wasn't promoted until 1986.

Didn't know about McGee either but he came up before Mattingly. He played all of 1982 and mattingly was a Sept callup that year.

Taylor was not a notable player in the sense that I meant.
 
475Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Sat, Oct 06, 2007, 16:36 		I know, I know... its such a small sample for A-Rod.

"Yankees 3B Alex Rodriguez went 0-for-4 and struck out three times Friday as the Yankees lost to Cleveland 2-1 in 11 innings, leaving them in an 0-2 deficit in the ALDS. A-Rod has now gone 0-for-6 in this playoff series, making him an inexplicable 4-for-47 (.085) with no RBI in his last 14 postseason games. "I'm pressing, but I've got to swing at strikes," Rodriguez said. He had a chance to end the streak and drive in the go-ahead run with two outs in the ninth, but struck out against Fausto Carmona. "Me personally, I helped him out a few times," Rodriguez said. "I've got to stop swinging at bad pitches."
 
476Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Sat, Oct 06, 2007, 16:41 		On a side note, a couple of awesome threads I noticed on another board I've seen...

1 - We Don't Want Him Back (Arod)
2 - Fire Charlie Manual

Hilarious that a week ago it was - Arod's far and away the best player and unanimous MVP and Charlie Manual should be Coach of the Year for pulling that team together etc.

Lose a couple games and the whole world turns against you!
 
477tastethewaste
      ID: 33929420
      Sat, Oct 06, 2007, 17:04 		well arod is 2nd on the team in OBP.
 
478Perm Dude
      ID: 47913713
      Sun, Oct 07, 2007, 15:18 		George: Torre's job is on the line tonight

I would hate to see Torre go, but, on the other hand, a chance to chase Clemens into retirement with a big win at Yankee stadium is far too tasty to not cheer for. And a nice ending to this thread.
 
479Razor
      ID: 2097711
      Sun, Oct 07, 2007, 16:59 		Charlie Manuel is a terrible manager. He is the most incompetent manager in the game. As far as "pulling a team together," I watched a press conference of his towards the end of the season and he was speaking like an ol' veteran that seemingly had no idea what was going on. Paraphrasing: "I've been around this game a long time, and sometimes when you keep plugging along, good things will happen."

As for A-Rod, I hope he tanks tonight, gets run out of town and signs an under-market value deal in LA just to get out of the East Coast spotlight.
 
480JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 08:57 		Could this have been Clemens last appearance? I cannot imagine him un-retiring in 2008 because the $$$ will not be there. Even if the Yankees were to move on, if his hammy is still bothering him, he may not be put on the next round's roster. But they have to get there first, can't look past another do-or-die game in G4.

Looks like Torre only has confidence in about 5 pitchers (3 starters and 2 relievers) right now. They'll need a solid inning out of Farnsworth one of these games, and Moose may yet have to work in a big start.

ARod getting 2 hits (one an IF single) hopefully will quiet everyone for a few games so he can just be left to play.

Damon when healthy is a solid contributer. Cano and Hughes came up big last night. Hughes came up real huge.
 
481KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 10:32 		Even if the Yankees were to move on, if his hammy is still bothering him, he may not be put on the next round's roster.

On the XM radio broadcast (not sure which team's broadcast, though it sounded like the Yankees), someone mentioned that the original injury had kept him out for a month, so if this is an aggravation/continuation of that, it's not likely he'll be a factor in the playoffs with that kind of timetable.
 
482walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 11:38 		Yeah JeffG, we won thanks to basically four players: Hughes, Cano, Melky and Damon. IF hitters 2-6 can finally hit like they usually do (Jeter, Abreu, A-Rod, Matsui and Jorge), they should win, and win tonight easily. Byrd is a hitters' pitcher, and he usually does not do well against the better teams. The yankees are 4-1 against him career-wise, with a 4.5 ERA. I don't expect Wang to throw a gem, but I do expect my team to score many runs. We need to sorta maul them like they did to us in game 1 so we can rest Hughes, Moose, etc. for game 5 back-up to Pettitte. Cleveland will have both CC and Fausto for game 5, if it goes that far. We have the pitcher on the mound we want against us tonight; we have to take advantage. If we don't clobber Byrd, we don't deserve to advance.

Clemens, IMO, is done. We don't have the pitching to truly be the best team out there, but you never know. I am comfy if they advance for Moose to take Clemens' spot, Hughes to be the fourth pitcher and some make-shift gobblydeegook bullpen combo to get us through the 5-7 innings in the event of a high-scoring game in the early innings. It's not perfect, but it's manageable. Fir thing's first is tonight. They really have to come out hitting against Byrd. We have some momentum, the pitching advantage and the home field advantage. Gotta win this winnable game.
 
483Rendle
      ID: 457402414
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 11:50 		Tonight will be a good one. Byrd allows runs but is usually pretty good at managing the game and not letting things get out of hand. He's had very good run support this year which has contributed to his high number of wins. Byrd only needs to go 5 solid innings to get to Lewis/Perez/Betancourt and getting the game out of JoBo range would definitely be a good thing.

Has Wang pitched on 3 days rest at all this year? I expect the Indians to hit him hard tonight so the scores could get up there.

Clemens leaving early with only giving up 3 runs was the best thing that could happen for the Yanks yesterday. Hughes was huge.
 
484Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 11:53 		A little watercooler talk... couple of Yankee fans discussing who they plan to pitch in Game 1 against Boston on Friday.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!! lol...
 
485JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 11:58 		I agree that tonight is a very winnable game and looking at Paul Byrd's 2007 game log aside from a couple of 4-hit shutouts, is a very hittable pitcher, and if the players afformentioned by walk in [482] can get jump started, it could help greatly if they can get to a Wednesday game five. The Yankees must score in bunches early. If the veteran Byrd can keep it close before handing it over to the Tribe's pen, then they are the ones with the rested and trusted arms tonight.

I know tonight is not a do-or-die game for Cleveland but until I really looked, I was initially surprised that Sabathia on short rest is not even a consideration. But then I guess CC threw too many pitches in G1 on Thursday and Wedge understood what Piniella did not about getting through the game at hand and not looking ahead later in the series.
 
486JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 12:09 		A little watercooler talk... couple of Yankee fans discussing who they plan to pitch in Game 1 against Boston on Friday.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!! lol...

Great One - We already were looking past Boston. We were discussing WORLD SERIES game 1. ;)
 
487Perm Dude
      ID: 47913713
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 12:15 		2008.
 
488KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 13:10 		Byrd will be the key, in my opinion, and it'll be interesting to see what happens. He's only pitched four games against playoff contenders this year.

First Two Games (@LAA 05/09, @BOS 05/30)
1-0, 13.0 IP, 2.08 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, 0 BB, 4 K

Last Two Games (NYY 08/11, @LAA 09/06)
0-2, 6.2 IP, 16.19 ERA, 2.55 WHIP, 2 BB, 6 K

In both groups, he was clearly hittable. Those last two games would be of concern to me if I were an Indians fan.

In fact, this would be of concern to me as well:

Byrd (September)
2-3, 38.0 IP, 5.21 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, 7 BB, 14 K

Wang on three days rest may help counteract this though. At a glance, I couldn't even find an instance of him going on 4 days rest this year. And it's not like his 4.2 IP mean he's fresh. Those 4.2 IP cost 94 pitches.

Home Run Derby, anybody?
 
489Perm Dude
      ID: 47913713
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 13:14 		Byrd's always been hittable. The question is whether he'll be scorable.
 
490tastethewaste
      ID: 239161113
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 15:28 		If youre hittable, then youre scorable.
 
491KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 15023167
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 15:49 		If youre hittable, then youre scorable.

I think most women would disagree with that assessment. ;)

Then again, so would most men after an unsuccessful night out.
 
492Perm Dude
      ID: 47913713
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 16:05 		Let's not confuse scorable with winable...
 
493biliruben
      ID: 17502215
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 16:13 		Or missable with kissable.
 
494walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 16:44 		Well, to me, Byrd is the type of pitcher the NYY usually do well against. However, they can lose this game 8-6 or win this game 13-3. They have not demonstrated that they can hit as a team in this series, and Wang has never pitched on 3 days rest, let alone the fact that the Tribe buried him on his normal rest. I can only hope that Wang pitches to form at home, where he usually excels, and the yankee hitters hit like they usually hit. If they don't win this game, I have a fan's attitude that they suck.
 
495KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 3498611
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 19:27 		Kruk, on SportsCenter, seemed to like Wang's chances tonight. He pointed out that Wang is a sinkerballer and that the 7 days rest before Game 1 left him too strong such that his sinkerball wasn't sinking. He said 3 days rest is much more appropriate for a sinkerballer, where power is a bad thing, as compared to power pitchers like Sabathia.

If this is the case, then starting Wang tonight would seem like a very good idea.
 
496Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 19:30 		Win or lose, I think its important tonight that Cleveland is in the game and makes Rivera and Joba work so they aren't 100% rested for Wednesday.

A blowout loss would be bad news for the Tribe.
 
497Rendle
      ID: 23756422
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 19:35 		Are the Joba rules in effect tonight? I thought he wouldn't pitch and if Wang couldn't get the ball to Rivera, Mussina would probably be the 2nd pitcher to come in.
 
498Perm Dude
      ID: 36957814
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 19:45 		Sizemore with a nice start.
 
499Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 20:02 		nobody comments on Clemens being removed from the postseason roster with his first chance to return being the World Series?

I figured for sure I could count on some bashing when I got home to this thread.
 
500Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 20:07 		500 posts!

re:Clemens
We've come a long way since "oh my goodness gracious!!!!"

Haven't we?
 
501walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Oct 08, 2007, 20:55 		Eeeesh, what bad karma. Wang awful; NYY clutch hitting, awful. Tribe clutch hitting, superb.
 
502JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 01:15 		I always feel so burnt out when the season finally ends. It ended too soon again. Props to the Indians, I thought they would be very beatable. I'll avoid getting into the knee-jerk nit-picking. Hot stove will start soon enough.

In retrospect, 2007 was a very exciting Yankee season and even when they got off to a bad start, most fans did not lower their expectations. Losing in the LDS is just a major disappointment.

Whatever they do in the very busy off season, I'm sure I'll have the wide-eyed expectations when opening day 2008 rolls around. For now, short term I'll just turn away from talk radio and news columnist commentaries.

Yikes, I really have to deal with another potential Red Sox World Championship. Could they run the table this post season? If your team is still in the running, enjoy the run, just please spare me.
 
503walk
      ID: 2530286
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 06:03 		Well, the indians sure played better. Really clutch hitting. NYY starting pitching, except for Pettitte, was bad. Cleveland's bullpen is full of better-than-Jobas, pitchers with ERA's under or around 2. They are very balanced. Wang was a very big reason for the 4-game series loss. A-Rod 0-5 with 4 Ks with runners on base; Jeter and Posada hitting under .200. Not sure if this is Torre's fault, but the big core of this team did not hit or pitch well, at all. They were very inferior. Cleveland was very good. Embarrassed at the inability of our bats to not have scored many runs early on against Byrd. As someone said above, hits does not equal runs.
 
505¤ Mario LeMoose ¤
      ID: 389261012
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:42
 
506Tree
      ID: 459161119
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 21:30 		i hate the Yankees because i find their fans so freakin' annoying.

but Red Sox fans? they make Yankee fans look like the well-behaved.

a team wins one World Series in the history of creation, and suddenly, they act like kings of the world.

honestly, with Red Sox fans really riding the dickhead train hard, it's only a matter of time where people hate the Red Sox like they do the Yankees.

i know i do.
 
507Khahan
      ID: 486552412
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 08:19 		a team wins one World Series in the history of creation

Actually it was their 6th world series win, not counting 1904 when the Pirates refused to play them. But yes, it was a rather long time between win #5 and win #6.
 
508Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:25 		a team wins one World Series in the history of creation, and suddenly, they act like kings of the world.

Yeah... thats a common misconception - usually by Yankee fans. The reality is that only 3 teams have more World Series victorires than the Red Sox 6 titles. The Yankees, Cardinals and Oakland A's.

Intersting little bit of triva there, no?

And its not the Boston fans that jumped over Waldman - 7 AM the next morning, the most important NYC station - WFAN's Craig Carton was making fun of her and playing the clip over and over.
 
509Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:33 		And its not the Boston fans that jumped over Waldman

I imagine you mean to say that its not just the Boston fans...
 
510Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:40 		Yeah, obviously since he got that graphic from BostonDirtDogs.com
 
511Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:43 		Mam'zelle LeMoose is a she.
 
512blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:55 		Tree 506

I'd probably put Mets fans ahead of either of those teams' fans, yourself excluded. Talk about winning one world championship and basing a lifetime on it. Alright, it's actually two. But amidst the talk of 1969 and 1986, Met fans seemingly fail to remember choke jobs of 1973, 1988, 1999, 2000, and 2006.
 
513Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 10:07 		I have no ill will towards the Mets, but this one is too easy... :)

The American Medical Association has issued an advisory.
The Universal choking sign has been revised in recent weeks.
The new one is shown below.

OLD SIGN





NEW SIGN

 
514Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 10:13 		no question, the Mets have the greatest regular season collapse in MLB history, at least IMHO.

but the greatest post-season collapse belongs to those guys from Da Bronx.

Yeah... thats a common misconception - usually by Yankee fans. The reality is that only 3 teams have more World Series victorires than the Red Sox 6 titles. The Yankees, Cardinals and Oakland A's.

well, that's all well and good. but let's begin with 1919, and then see how many teams have won more World Series than the Red Sox in the last 87 or so years...

i mean, in the lifetime of most fans, the Red Sox have ONE World Series title...

 
516Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 10:33 		Well the only Mets fan in my family is my cousin and he was born in 1989. So to him its Red Sox 1, Mets 0.

The point its, you can pick any arbitrary dates you want, the reality is in the record book, thats how many they have. The Yankees won a chunk of those 26 titles almost 100 years ago, so you never hear them complain about counting back that far (except when they omit the Red Sox champtionships as I illustrated before ala 2005 at Yankee Stadium where there were moronic 26-1 signs in the NY crowd).

Now if your argument was that the Mets have only been around 40 years, that would have made more sense.
 
517blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 10:50 		I think KTxGod was born in 2001. So he's only allowed to cheer for the DBacks, Angels, Marlins, Red Sox, White Sox, or Cardinals.

Besides, the true measure of fans isn't how much you've won; it's how you treat your team. As noted, Arizona is terrible. The Marlins too, and they've won twice.

How about Cubs fans, selling out even when their team sucks? Or the Giants? Or the Indians fans when they stunk?
 
518Khahan
      ID: 486552412
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 11:08 		well, that's all well and good. but let's begin with 1919, and then see how many teams have won more World Series than the Red Sox in the last 87 or so years...

Thats an awfully convenient place to start. I'd call it random, but its obviously not. If you want to talk WS wins then you go back to the beginning.

No offense Tree, but why not go back to 2000 and count from there. Surely the past 7 years are much more relevant to current gameplay than the past 86 years. Or why not go back to whatever year the last expansion clubs were added (what was that, like 1994?).

Those are much less random than just saying, "Lets use 1919 so that we can conveniently ignore 5 WS wins to help prove my point."

Doesn't work that way. You brought up the number of world series wins. It was only after it was pointed out that Boston has a better track record over the course of MLB history that you suddenly wanted to add qualifying statements.
 
519Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 11:47 		No offense Tree, but why not go back to 2000 and count from there. Surely the past 7 years are much more relevant to current gameplay than the past 86 years. Or why not go back to whatever year the last expansion clubs were added (what was that, like 1994?).

going back to 85 years isn't exactly new. part of what made the Red Sox win a couple years back so important, so hysterical, and such a great story was the simple fact that they HADN'T won in so long.

it was a great story that they finally won. but that story doesn't exist if you don't go back and look at their history of failure in modern times.
 
520Razor
      ID: 136523110
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 12:07
How about Cubs fans, selling out even when their team sucks? Or the Giants? Or the Indians fans when they stunk?

The Cubs sell out because people like drinking during the day, not because the Cubs fans are great fans. The Giants sellout because people in SF are brainless and don't mind rooting for or defending a cheater. The Indians don't sellout any more.
 
521Khahan
      ID: 486552412
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 12:24 		I understand that, Tree, and agree that the 86 year wait between wins was a major factor in how the 2004 WS win was perceived. But thats irrelevant. Your point quoted above was that Boston had 1 WS win, period. End of story. No qualifactions about a specific time frame. Just 1 win in their history. Their history goes back to and includes 1903-1918.

And its simply not true that they had just 1 WS win in their history.
 
522Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 12:35 		i was kind of thinking that by using the phrase "in the history of creation", people would know that my comment was obviously a bit of exaggeration.

still, the reality is, 6 wins or not, most people remember one World Series win for the Red Sox. Six is not a number that sticks in most people's heads, like, for example, 26 for the Yankees, or '69 and '86 for the Mets.
 
523Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 12:42 		26 only sticks in the head for the Yankees because we've heard that horrible Micheal Kaye voiceover for 7 long years now, that most Yankee fans can recite in their sleep.

And then on days like Tuesday after they've been eliminated (or in November of 2004)... all I hear is the following sentence - "I guess we can't win them all.. blah blah, 26 blah blah. 26 blah blah.... blah blah blah" Its like they've been brainwashed.
 
524Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 12:43 		Exagerations never go over well (much less successfully emphasize a point) when discussing baseball stats.
 
525JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 16:00 		A recent Village Voice article listed some of the Yankees hotel aliases.

Derek Jeter - Johnny Drama Chase
Mike Mussina - Simon Phoenix
Don Mattingly - Bruce Almighty
Ruben Sierra - Austin Powers
Bernie Williams - Richard Long
Jaret Wright - Turd Ferguson
Jore Posada - Ricky Ricardo
Hideki Matsui - Joe Saturday
Luis Sojo - Harry Pelotas
Randy Johnson - Sam Adams
Reggie Jackson - Reggie Jackson
 
526Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 19, 2010, 19:55 		Time to bring back this old timey thread, just in time for a Twitter reaction to the indictment of Roger Clemens for lying to Congress.
 
527Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Aug 19, 2010, 20:10 		Darren Rovell had my favorite tweet on the matter. lol

OldHossRadbourn was a close second.
 
528Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 21:10 		Roger Clemens' wife seemingly throws herself under the bus in his new trial.

I guess the idea is to create some reasonable doubt. But it just makes them look like the HGH Couple.