Forum: base
Page 19408
Subject: Yankee 2008 Offseason Thread


  Posted by: Great One - Sustainer [053272014] Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 09:04

Always enjoy starting this thread...

Is it the end for Torre?
Is it the end for A-Rod?
 
1Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 09:06
They were saying this morning that Torre wanted to start Mussina and the word came "from above" that the organization wanted Wang out there.
WOW. What must he have been thinking walking to the mound to yank Wang after 1 inning?!

The one play for me last night was Jeter hitting into that double play in the 7th (I think?) inning. I was shocked by that. I thought for sure they'd at least chip another run off the lead there. And then he pops up to lead off the 9th. And yet it'll still be all about A-Rod for the public.

And for all you defenders of A-Rod... last night was his first post-season RBI since 2004.
 
2JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 09:27
Open items for 2008 off the top of my head.

- Who manages NYY in 2008. Is Torre, who earned $7M in 2007, in the running? Who from the coaching staff (Guidry, Mattingly, Bowa, Pena, Kerrigan, Long) stays or goes?

- Mariano is a free agent. Will they offer him multiple years?

- A-Rod's 'opt out' or 'extension'? Must declare 10 days after end of WS. If not, who plays 3rd. Where does A-Rod go, does he go back to SS?

- Posada is a free agent, otherwise who is catcher?

- Giambi, age 37, set to earn $21M next season. Keep him or trade him and pay most of his salary.

- Mussina, age 39, set to earn $11M next season.

- Pettitte, age 35, has player option.

- Is Joba going to be the closer heir-apparent, or be a starter, and if so where on opening day? New York, or Scranton Wilkes-Barre?

- Are Hughes and Kennedy ready for full time rotation slots.

- Can they still keep both Damon and Matsui if Melky is the everyday CF and those guys are now sharing LF and possibly DH?

- Who are the set up guys going to be?

- First base. Phillips, Phelps, , or other?

- If a few key free agents do not re-sign, can the Yankees 'all star at every position' approach handle Betemit or Molina being their opening day starter.
 
3Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 09:31
Pudge Rodriguez will be available, if I were a betting man, I'd say he'll be playing in NYC one way or the other.
 
4Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 09:44
I've already heard Steinbrenner wants LaRussa and Duncan.
 
5Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 09:52
Tigers have a $13 million option on Pudge. I expect they'll exercise it.
 
6Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 10:29
I had read this a week ago which is why I thought so, but things change everyday so who knows... It appears that the Tigers are prepared to decline their $13 million 2008 option on Rodriguez's contract making him a free agent, MLive.com reports. Rodriguez is still a solid catcher but his offense has been in decline over the past couple of seasons. According to the article, the Tigers don't believe Rodriguez is worth $13 million a season at this point in his career.

And part II of that is Loduca not returning to NYM. So you know Minaya wants Pudge or Posada.
 
7Perm Dude
      ID: 2693498
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 10:34
I think the Yanks will shed Giambi and Mussina (and will not pursue Clemens), to try to get Pettite, ARod & Posada. There's no way you don't try to get these guya.
 
8Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 10:36
I agree Perm Dude although I'm not sure they will find a taker for Giambi unless they really swallow a ton of that contract.

And I'd say Mattingly is the favorite to coach that team. I'd hire Girardi but doing that would be tough to keep Mattingly's feelings in check. Would be a little bit of a slap in the face.
 
9Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 11:15
Hopefully they'll pay Posada.

I hope Rivera returns. He might not be an elite closer anymore but he's still much more solid than most.

I suspect the cost of retaining both goes up if Torre is cut loose.

I like LaRussa over Mattingly, tho that would mean Duncan supplanting Gator. It's been great watching my childhood heroes suited up in the dugout but you can't expect a manager to not bring in his own people. I suppose George might insist that Mattingly stay on the bench.

If When ARod opts out, let him go.

I believe Giambi can still be a valuable platoon/bench contributer. If they're going to have to shell out most of that money to be rid of him, might as well keep him around for one more year, unless they manage to pull a valuable 3b from another club in the deal (yeah right). His apparent willingness to accept a lesser role makes it easier to keep both Damon and Matsui.

Similarly, they won't get any value for Moose and will have to pay him anyway, so might as well bring him back for his last season.

Joba will be tested as a starter definitely if Rivera returns and probably if he doesn't, though I could see him being handed the closer job if they find themselves desperate like Boston did this year. I'd prefer to see him become a successful starter than a successful closer.

The last two rotation spots after Wang, Pettitte and Hughes will chosen from Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mussina. Igawa is looking like a bust but he should get another chance at a role on the staff in the spring. San Diego did have some interest in him at the trade deadline so perhaps there will be a market for him. I could see him having some success in the NL.

Either or Phillips won't be back. Personally I like Phillips. Homegrown, like his bat more and really not too far from , defensively.

If enough key free agents don't re-sign I'd be just fine with no major free agent signings this year, even if it means skipping the playoffs. Give the experience to the young players, see what else the farm system can yield and retool for 2009, free of Giambi's and Mussina's contracts.
 
10Rendle
      ID: 457402414
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 15:35
From Rotoworld:

1. Rivera wants to test free agency.

2. Steinbrenner's son says nothing has been decided yet as far as Torre's job goes.

3. Pudge's option was picked up by Detroit. (I don't know how they can justify giving him $13M. I know there was no one behind him but that is ugly.)
 
11Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 18:14
I really respect post 9, MITH. It was an honest assessment of the Yanks and their future. It also shows that Yankee fans will not abandon ship if the Boss chooses to retool one season in hopes of building for the future. Does Steinbrener have it in him to undergo a rebuilding program? I don't know.

When ARod opts out, let him go.

This is what I will never understand. I think a majority of baseball writers today would agree with this statement, "If ARod avoids injury and plays through 2015, he will likely be considered the greatest player ever."

Let that sink in. He has a great chance at 800 homers, 4000 hits and 2500+ rbis. Better than Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe D, Mickey Mantle. And the fans don't care if he leaves. Isn't the Yankee franchise the place where the greats gravitate towards? Didn't the Yankees take a great pitcher from the Red Sox and turn him into a superstar right fielder who earned more money than the President, and deserved it?

Without ARod, the Yankees don't win the wildcard, simply no way. He carried that team early in the year when they were awful, without his April monster numbers, the depths the Yanks would have sunk to are unfathomable. Yet he gets no love from the Faithful.

That makes me very happy, personally, because I really like ARod and his game and hate the fact that he is a Yankee. It makes me very happy to think that he may leave and I really think the reason he would leave is because the fans don't appreciate his efforts. He can sign with at least eight teams that have a better shot of winning the World Series next year and all of those teams have fans who would LOVE to have him.

And I don't want to hear about "The Pressure" of playing in New York. ARod had a MONSTER year, easily the Most Valuable Player, and New York vilifies him because he has a poor couple of games this week. Yankee fans aren't "demanding", they are neurotic, spiteful, petty, vindictive, and many of them don't know the game (present company excluded, I'm talking about a culture that is expressed through the press).

ARod leaving New York will be the beginning of the end, and I hope it is a long end, looking a lot like the Oakland Raiders of late under the Just Win, Baby Al Davis-in-Depends regime.

Of course, I don't think he will leave, I just hope he does. I would leave. But in the end, I think he will sign a ridiculously huge extension and spend the next seven or eight years in New York. I don't see another team ponying up nine digits except maybe the Dodgers, but he wants to win, so they are out. I think he will sign with Florida to finish his career at home years from now.
 
12Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 18:17
And by the way, this was the THIRTEENTH straight year with at least one post season win, just adding to the record!
 
13Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 19:30
Without a free agent list in front of me here's what I think.

Torre needs to go, and I think Cashman needs to go although I could be swayed on Cashman. If A-Rod opts out, keep him. Keep Posada.

I would explore trading Matsui for a reliever.

I think Rivera should be allowed to finish his career as a Yankee if that's what he wants.

Clemens needs to retire. If the Yanks have 20 million to pay him, they have 20 million to shore up the pen.
 
14Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 19:32
I would also prefer Mattingly over LaRussa. Give Donnie Baseball his shot. He's used to the NY environment and The Boss. We may catch lightning in a bottle like the ChiSox and Marlins did under Guillen and Girardi respectively.
 
15Perm Dude
      ID: 45959914
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 19:53
If the Yanks don't re-sign Torre, then Posada, Pettite & Rivera might all walk.
 
16Tree
      ID: 51940917
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 20:13
Without ARod, the Yankees don't win the wildcard, simply no way. He carried that team early in the year when they were awful, without his April monster numbers, the depths the Yanks would have sunk to are unfathomable. Yet he gets no love from the Faithful.

you're giving too much credit to the rest of the team. without A-Rod, the Yankees don't even finish in the top 3 in the East.

how on earth failures can be blamed on a guy who hit 54 homers, knocked in 156 runs, scored 143 runs, stole 24 bases, *and* hit .314, is beyond me.

as a team, they were ranked fairly high in most of those categories. without him, they drop from 1st to 5th in runs, 4th to 23rd in HRs, 1st to 10th in ribbies, and 7th to 14th in SBs. and, almost certainly, they'd plunge from first to several spots below on average.

i realize that *someone* would pick up some of the offensive slack, but the reality is that A-Rod was a huge part of what made that team go.

you can talk about how he's not a clutch player, but his numbers speak otherwise. dude hit .318 with RISP and two outs, and he hit .500 with the bases loaded. additionally, with a man on third and 2 outs, he hit .452.

the yankees are a mediocre team without him, we're talking the 1989 yankees at best. it would be one of the biggest boners in baseball history if the yankees, given the opportunity to bring A-Rod back, don't.

i'm sure we could find a spot for him across town.
 
17Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 21:04
i'm sure we could find a spot for him across town.

Interesting. If Kaz Matsui could bump Jose Reyes from SS, one would think Arod could too...

New York vilifies him because he has a poor couple of games this week.

I haven't read or heard anything that put any blame whatsoever on Arod for his performance in the playoffs this year. He didn't have a great series that many expected and/or hoped for, but he didn't have an awful one like the last couple years either.

It's my feeling that if/when Arod opts out and the Yanks were to decide to not bring him back, it would not be because of his lack of "heart" or "clutchness", but because of money. Now that may seem laughable to some to think that the Yanks would not sign a player due to money, but they have actually cut payroll 3 years in a row and right now Texas is paying a decent chunk of Arod's salary and if he is to opt out, that would cost the Yanks a ton of money to sign him to a new contract. However, Arod is a special player and an MVP candidate every year and it would be a mistake for the Yankees to not do everything in their power to bring him back.
 
18Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 09:48
SZ
This is what I will never understand

For me, it has nothing to do with the playoff record. I'm tired of all the wasted money being thrown around and long for just one year when the Yankees are not the top spending franchise in the league. I also loathe Scott Boras. On the more petty side, I'd love for the haters who continually trash ARod to show what hypocrites they are when they rejoice the moment their team spends that money on him. Don't get me wrong, my first preference is that he chooses to not opt out but I don't believe his sense of loyalty and whatever else might tempt him to stay trumps his greed. Especially not with Boras in his ear.


Without ARod, the Yankees don't win the wildcard, simply no way.

This is probably true. But its also true of enough other players - Wang, Pettitte, Chamberlain and possibly others.


New York vilifies him because he has a poor couple of games this week

I'm with Da Bomb on that. As much as I don't like this generation of bandwagon Yankee fans, I really haven't seen much of what you're talking about. Most of the comments I've seen were the opposite - that you cannot single out ARod for this season's ouster.


Tree
without A-Rod, the Yankees don't even finish in the top 3 in the East

This is definitely not true. Very many of the RBI and other opportunities ARod took away from the hitters after him in the lineup would be made up. Abreu, Posada and Matsui combined for 294 RBI this year. That number would have been much higher without ARod hitting cleanup. They still would have contended and made it interesting. They got themselves back into the race when their pitching turned around.


the yankees are a mediocre team without him, we're talking the 1989 yankees at best.

LOL! The second-worst Yankee team in the past 95 years! Tree names himself hypocrite-hater #1a. Tree, you were the one who back in 2004 said that trading ARod for Soriano only makes the Yankees marginally better. Now the Yankees will make one of the biggest "boners" in history if they don't pay him even more money? One season changed all that?

You also said at the time that the deal disgusts you for making the rich richer. Are the Mets not also a rich team who will be made richer with the signing of ARod? With the recent high-priced additions of Martinez, Beltran, Delgado, Glavine and Wagner, are the Mets really all that different from what the yankees were, following the 2003 season? (well, except for their 6th pennant in 8 years, of course)


i'm sure we could find a spot for him across town.

Well at least then you'd finally be able to truthfully say you have the best SS in NYC. Good luck.
 
19Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 10:07
I think it was David Wright who said he would move... perhaps to 1B or to the OF. Those are a couple trouble positions for the Mets anyway, so that would in a way be like getting A-Rod to fix on of those holes by moving a great athlete like Wright into one of those spots.

I'm not sure A-Rod could handle SS anymore, he's gotten way to big in my opinion.
 
20Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 11:06
I've thought the same actually (despite my cheap shot at Reyes). He doesn't look nearly as spry as the ARod of old.
 
21Rendle
      ID: 457402414
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 11:09
From Peter Gammons:

They are the Yankees, so two hours after their season turned to winter, there was a cellphone conversation about what could be packaged with Chien-Ming Wang to get Johan Santana, not Carlos Silva or any of the other mongrel free agents. They inquired about Santana, because they are the Yankees.
 
22Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 11:37
LOL! The second-worst Yankee team in the past 95 years! Tree names himself hypocrite-hater #1a.

sorry. i think A-Rod was that important to this team. you mention Posada, Matsui, and Abreau picking up the slack.

certainly not in clutch hitting situations. as i mentioned earlier, A-Rod his .318 with RSIP and two outs. Posada hit .224 in the same situation, Abreu .212, and Matsui .210.

granted, Posada and Abreu clobbered the ball with the bases loaded, but they just couldn't knock 'em in like A-Rod could when there were two outs.

Tree, you were the one who back in 2004 said that trading ARod for Soriano only makes the Yankees marginally better. Now the Yankees will make one of the biggest "boners" in history if they don't pay him even more money? One season changed all that?

2004 to 2007 is one season? how's that work? no question, A-Rod is a much better player than Soriano, and if i questioned that 3 years ago, i certainly don't question that now.

You also said at the time that the deal disgusts you for making the rich richer. Are the Mets not also a rich team who will be made richer with the signing of ARod? With the recent high-priced additions of Martinez, Beltran, Delgado, Glavine and Wagner, are the Mets really all that different from what the yankees were, following the 2003 season? (well, except for their 6th pennant in 8 years, of course)

was my "i'm sure we could find a spot for him across town" completely missed as the humourous statement that it was?

of course i'd love A-Rod playing in Queens. i just don't expect it.

even so, comparing the payroll of the mets to that of the yankees is ridiculous. the Yankee payroll in 2007 was more than 195 million dollars. The Mets? just under 118 million. (according to one source i saw. another had it at 190 vs. 115, and i'm sure there are other disparities)..

The Yankee payroll is so significantly more, that comparing them is laughable.
 
23Perm Dude
      ID: 9938108
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 11:44
I agree with Tree about ARod. While some of the slack might have gotten picked up, certainly not all of it. And playing around MVP-quality players like ARod lifts the games of players around them. There is certainly no doubt in my mind that the Yankees don't get to the playoffs without their MVP. (And is there any other wildcard team out there that someone can say, with a straight face, that they would still have made it if they didn't have the league MVP?)
 
24Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 12:25
I agree with Tree about ARod.

Really? That the Yankees go from a .580 winning percentage to .460?

In the month of May, when Arod hit .235, Abreu .208, Cano .260, Melky .254 and the patchwork rotation required starts from Kei Igawa Darrell Rasner, Matt DeSalvo and Tyler Clippard, they were 13-15, slightly better than .460.

You think the additions of Chamberlain and Clemens, the return of Hughes and improved play from Mussina, Abreu, Melky and Cano didn't have any impact on the team's ability to win games?
 
25Perm Dude
      ID: 9938108
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 12:31
Don't twist my words around in your grief, MITH. ARod was worth 6+ wins to the Yankees this year. Without him, they don't make the wildcard.
 
27Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 12:37
ARod was worth 6+ wins to the Yankees this year.

That's easy to agree with. I already said they don't likely make the playoffs without ARod. Tree's contribution to the discussion was that they are a .460 team without Arod, claiming he was worth an unbelievable 20 wins this year. I'm not twisting anything, perhaps you should watch more closely what you're quick to agree with.
 
28Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 12:38
The second-worst Yankee team in the past 95 years!

btw, for history's sake, there actually have been 10 Yankee teams with worse winning percentages since 1903.

Really? That the Yankees go from a .580 winning percentage to .460?

why is that hard to believe? it's 20 games. that's not a lot when you've got your top guys hitting below the Mendoza line with RISP.

it's not as if the team had pitching to fall back on, because when it comes down to it, the yankees were just not that good on the mound.

8th out of 14 teams in AL in ERA. 13th in CG and Shutouts. 12th in saves. 12th in strike outs. 9th in WHIP. 10th in OBA.

you take your top hitter - a guy who came through in the clutch repeatedly and had ONE OF THE GREATEST SEASONS OF ANY PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL - and replace him with a bunch of guys who just couldn't hit their way of a paper bag when they needed to, combine it with a poor pitching team, and you've got a recipe for disaster.
 
29Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 12:48
Still agree with Tree, PD?

your top guys hitting below the Mendoza line with RISP.

Please. The Mendoza line is .180.

RISP:
Posada: .291
Abreu: .286
Matsui: .247
Cano: .290

The RISP with 2 outs figure was bad for the top three but but check out all their other clutch stats. You're really reaching.
 
30Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 12:52
ONE OF THE GREATEST SEASONS OF ANY PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL

This is an interesting statement (not being critical). I hadn't really considered the significance of ARod's 2007 as a single season. Offhand I'd say that there's probably no way it cracks the top ten hitter seasons but maybe top 20 is a possibility.
 
31wiggs
      ID: 6825712
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 12:58
8th out of 14 teams in AL in ERA. 13th in CG and Shutouts. 12th in saves. 12th in strike outs. 9th in WHIP. 10th in OBA.

these stats dont mean alot when you are 1st in runs.

You can give up alot of runs if you score alot.

Complete games and shutouts are minor stats. What difference does it make if you pitch a complete game or your bullpen finishes the game?

12 in Saves-- saves is a useless category in my opinion. If you are winning by more then 3 runs saves dont come into play. I think he only blew like 3 or 4 saves. I think 4 but 1 might have turned into a win.
 
32Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 13:15
Exactly. He's reaching. He cites RISP with 2 outs as if it tells a whole story but ignores all of the other clutch stats, most of which were pretty good and then exagerates his generalization by claiming they hit below the Mendoza line with RISP. Ukula-esque.

What site does he think he's posting on?

FTR, I'd actually put the value of ARod's contribution to the Yankees at more like 10 wins. It might have been 20 if he put up those numbers playing for the Pirates.
 
33wiggs
      ID: 6825712
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 13:16
I dont understand the deal if he opts out. This is from yahoo..



Rodriguez is guaranteed $24 million annually by New York in each of the next three seasons. But part of that would be offset by $21,304,500 the Rangers still owe New York as part of the trade. In addition, Rodriguez is due $3 million each year by the Rangers, money that is deferred a 2 percent annual interest rate and scheduled to be paid from 2016-25.

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said that if Rodriguez opts out -- and the Yankees lose that $21 million subsidy -- the team would cut off negotiations.


So the yanks will still owe him, even if he isnt on the team? or am I missing something?
 
34Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 13:18
If Arod opts out of the contract then the Yanks loose the money that Texas is paying them as part of the trade. So they wouldn't go into talk to sign him because they would be paying him everything.
 
35Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 13:18
No. The "$21 million subsidy" is the money they'll receive from the Rangers if ARod doesn't opt out. The article is just saying that if ARod leaves, his current contract is over and the Rangers don't have to send checks to the Yankees anymore.
 
36wiggs
      ID: 6825712
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 13:20
gotcha. thanks guys
 
37Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 13:56
your top guys hitting below the Mendoza line with RISP.

Please. The Mendoza line is .180.


very clearly, i was talking RISP with two outs, since that was the stat i used earlier. i also haven't strayed from my clutch hitting argument, which goes with the two outs.

just because YOU'RE changing my theory, doesn't mean i changed my theory.

also, the Mendoza line is .215. i don't know where you got .180 from, but Mario Mendoza's career average was .215.

additionally, in most cases it's a relative term - a dude hitting .224 isn't helping your team out anymore than a dude hitting .215.

argue the semantics if you want, but those are straws you're grasping at.

12 in Saves-- saves is a useless category in my opinion. If you are winning by more then 3 runs saves dont come into play. I think he only blew like 3 or 4 saves. I think 4 but 1 might have turned into a win.

who he? the Yankees saved 34 in 55 opportunities. only Tampa, Baltimore, and Oakland had worst percentages in the AL.

You can give up alot of runs if you score alot.

so are you saying that if the Yankees scored less runs, they would have pitched better, and basically didn't pitch as well because they didn't have to????

the yankees had crappy pitching because they had crappy pitching. the stats don't lie. you can say "well, they don't matter," but they sure as $hit matter if A-Rod ain't in your lineup.

He cites RISP with 2 outs as if it tells a whole story

you're the one claiming that Posada, Matsui, and Abreu would have made up for A-Rod. and i'm giving you reasons as to why they wouldn't.

granted, you may not think it's a big deal to knock in runs with two outs, but i think it's crucial, and it defines clutch, and Posada, Matsui, and Abreu can't even carry A-Rod's jock in that department.

oh, and even knocking off 10 wins sends the Yankees packing before the post season. but i'll stand by my asceration he was worth 20.



 
38Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 14:47
you're the one claiming that Posada, Matsui, and Abreu would have made up for A-Rod

To be clear I said they'd make up a lot of those runs. And I should have added Cano.


i'm giving you reasons as to why they wouldn't.

Well, no. You're offering 1 "reason" (citing maybe 240 at-bats out of the 5700 at bats the team had, no less) and ignoring the bulk of the information at hand.

The Yankees overall lineup was terrific this season, 5 players with 90+ rbi, 7 players with 90+ runs, 4 players hit over .300, 7 players with an OPS over .440, 4 players with 15+ steals and no regular players with a batting average under .270.


oh, and even knocking off 10 wins sends the Yankees packing before the post season

...? This is not a point of contention.
 
39blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 15:01
We just had a discussion at work about Giambi. Surely he's not worth 20 million, but what is he worth? Boy can still hit, although his OBP was down to .353 this year, even in limited playing time.
 
40wiggs
      ID: 2542623
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 16:02

so are you saying that if the Yankees scored less runs, they would have pitched better, and basically didn't pitch as well because they didn't have to????

no, you were talking wins and losses. It doesnt matter if you win 9-8 or 2-1. I can think of atleast 2 cases where Roy Halladay lost like a 2-1 game where he pitched a complete game. I was just saying wins and losses dont necessarily correlate with ERA.

who he? the Yankees saved 34 in 55 opportunities. only Tampa, Baltimore, and Oakland had worst percentages in the AL.

Rivera i am talking about.
 
41blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 16:06
Well wait. "Knocking off 10 wins"? Who replaces ARod in pinstripes? This is the Yankees, remember. Aramis Ramirez? Scott Rolen? Adrian Beltre? BJ Upton? You know they'll have someone, so how many runs will be made up?
 
42Uptown Bombers
      Donor
      ID: 035616416
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 16:47
I didn't understand the contract issue either.

So all this time, the Rangers have been paying $21 mil a year to the Yanks? What is the advantage in that for the Rangers? If they are going to pay that much, might as well keep him.
 
43Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:05
BH
Who replaces ARod in pinstripes?

This is a good point. 10 wins assuming the replacement is Betemit. If you replace him with another highly productive 3b, obviously that number goes down.

One thing Tree seems to refuse to acknowledge is that the Yankees as a whole got an awful lot better after May. As points out, the Yankees converted only 62% of save ops during the season but a month by month check shows how the pen improved over the course of the year:

Yankees SV% - save ops - MLB rank, by month:
Apr: 13% - 8 - 30th
May: 50% - 6 - 27th
Jun: 78% - 9 - 7th
Jul: 63% - 8 - 20th
Aug: 78% - 9 - 7th
Sep: 73% - 15 - 8th

They were a terrible bullpen in April and May and not a bad one at all after that.


Uptown Bombers

the Rangers have been paying $21 mil a year to the Yanks?

No, they owe the Yankees $21m over the next 3 years. They've been paying about 1/3 of his salary since trading him to the Yankees.
 
44DWetzel from work
      ID: 3316412
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:05
Not $21M per year. The $21M total would be for the remaining (three?) years of his contract, or about $7M (?) per year.
 
45Uptown Bombers
      Donor
      ID: 035616416
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:12
Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying. I knew I was missing something.
 
46Perm Dude
      ID: 69301013
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:24
Well, the Rangers also got Soriano on the cheap (and the PTBNL was Arias, as I recall).

They traded Soriano for Wilkerson, Sledge a minor leaguer (Armando Galarraga), and a ham sandwich. Sledge (with Adrian Gonzalez!) was moved to SD with Chris Young for Adam Eaton, Akinori Otsuka, and Billy Killian.

That all said, the numbers and names don't really look that good for the Rangers, until you throw in one more name: Now playing SS for the Rangers is a little overproducer by the name of Michael Young.
 
47Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:28
What does Michael Young have to do with that string? The Blue Jays traded him to the Rangers for Loaiza in 2000.
 
48Perm Dude
      ID: 69301013
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:33
It means that the Rangers have a very good shortstop now, who is making a very small amount of money compared to ARod.

If the Rangers were making due with a scrub at the position, the trade would look much worse.
 
49C1-NRB
      ID: 5932328
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:44
Young moved from 2B to SS because Soriano refused to play anywhere but 2B. Upon moving Soriano the Rangers were able to plug in Ian Kinsler (who would've otherwise been waiting behind Young or traded.)
 
50Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:44
The liklihood of Torre being fired this year raises memories of a side of Steinbrenner we haven't seen in a long time. On October 20th 1990, Steinbrenner hosted SNL following a baseball season in which Steinbrenner fired Bucky Dent as Yankee manager after 67 games. At that point, the Yankees had seen 6 different managers in their last 4 season and 12 different managers in the last 10 (that's only counting Billy Martin and Lou Pinella once each, as they had each served twice in that decade).

Anyway, a transcript from a famous skit in that show:
Carl's Quick Stop

Pete the Head Supervisor.....Phil Hartman
Carl the Manager.....George Steinbrenner
Steve.....Kevin Nealon
Hungover Employee.....Chris Farley

Pete the Head Supervisor at Carl's Quick-Stop is disgusted by the increasing number of employees who aren't performing their jobs, so he decided to address the issue with Carl the manager.


Pete: It's about Steve. He's not working out.

Carl: Well, what should we do? Do you think I should talk to him again?

Pete: No, Carl.. I think it's time you let him go.

Carl: You mean, fire him?

Pete: I don't think you have a choice. He's not doing his job, he doesn't show up half the time, and when he does he's rude to the customers.

Carl: Geez, it just seems firing so extreme. How about if we just give him a warning? A warning can be very effective, you know?

Pete: Carl, this can't continue! You've got twenty people on the payroll, and only five real jobs. Three employees are out there operating a cash register. You've got to start somewhere! I'll go get him. [ exits office ]

Carl: [ alone, worried ] How? How do you fire a man? How do you look in his eye and tell him he's no longer needed? Who am I to judge another man?

[ Pete returns to the office with Steve, who's dressed sloppily, eating potato chips and listening to a Walkman ]

Steve: You wanted to see me, Sir?

Carl: Yeah. Yeah, I guess I did. [ Pete asks Steve to take his headphones off, as Carl struggles for the right thing to say ] Steve, I think it's just.. that your performance has been.. Pete said that, uh.. well.. well, uh.. how do you think you're doing here?

Steve: Hmm.. I don't know. I kinda like it.

Carl: Well, that's good! That's good! That's important.

Steve: Well, is there anything else?

Carl: No.. That's it, I.. I.. you know, I just wanted to say Hi.

Steve: Oh. Okay. Alright.

Carl: You take care. Goodbye. [ Steve exits ]

Pete: [ upset ] Carl!

Carl: It's just I can't.. I can't fire people, it's not in my nature.

Pete: You can't keep saying that. If an employee isn't delivering what you expect of them, you have to fire them!

Carl: Why? Where is it written if you don't get results right away, you fire people? What kind of asinine policy is that?

Pete: Carl! It's just good business!

Carl: That's where you're wrong! It's not good business! You can't have people worried all the time that they'll be fired if they make one mistake. That's lunacy! Only a jackass would run his business that way!

Pete: Carl, this is the way it works: an unsatisfied owner fires people!

Carl: A stupid owner! A stupid, arrogant, shortsighted owner. The kind of guy who blames everybody but himself! How would you like it everytime something went wrong, I just blamed you, the supervisor, huh? Let's just fire the supervisor! Then I'll hire some other guy, and something would go wrong and I'd fire him, and I'd probably rehire you! Then fire you again, bring in someone else, then fire him and rehire you again! Then fire and hire, back and forth until the whole thing's just a big joke! Is that the kind of owner you want? Some yammering nincompoop in a fancy suit? No way you take that road, 'cause before you know it, you'll probably be banned from running the entire company.

Pete: You know what? You're right. Thank God the kind of boss you described only exists in our worst nightmares! Because if he did exist, I'd be so sick, I don't think I could stand the sight of him.

[ a hungover employee enters the office staggering ]

Hungover Employee: Hey, Boss. I wasa at a party last night.. I got pretty drunk, and I was wondering if I could knock off early?

Carl: Take the rest of the day off. And if you're still hung over tomorrow, just come back next week - we'll be here for you.

Hungover Employee: Thanks, Boss.

Carl: Okay. I'll walk you to your car.

[ Carl exits with the hungover employee, leaving Pete alone in the office ]

Pete: [ to himself ] There goes the opposite of a horrible man.

[ fade ]
 
51blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:44
Actually, Michael Young is pretty overrated. Whereas ARod might actually be underrated.
 
52Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:46
 
53tastethewaste
      ID: 43921822
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:50
Isnt the Mendoza line understood as below .200?
 
54Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 17:57
Wikipedia
The Mendoza Line is an informal term used in baseball for when a position player's batting average falls below .200 (some say .215).
 
55Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 00:05
According to Hardball Times, using Bill James' method for win shares, Arod was worth 39 win shares (13 wins) this season, not counted against a replacement player.

Win Shares
It considers statistics for players, in the context of their team, and assigns a single number to each player for his contributions for the year. All pitching, hitting and defensive contributions by the player are taken into account. Statistics are adjusted for park, league and era.

Win shares for other 3B with 500+ab:

Dave Wright: 34
Miguel Cabrera 30
Chipper Jones 26
Mike Lowell 24
Aramis Ramirez 23
Chone Figgins 22
Ryan Braun 22
Ryan Zimmerman 21
Garret Atkins 20
Adrian Beltre 18
Edwin Encarnacion 17

According to Bill James' formula, if the you replace ARod's 2007 with Ryan Zimmerman's (9th in WS among the 12 qualified MLB 3B) the difference in total wins is 6.
 
56blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 10:47
For what it's worth, Win Shares counts two things more than most other copycats: defense and team performance. The Nats were dreadful, but not as bad as we thought they'd be, and Zimmerman is the standard of defense at third base.
 
57Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 11:23
That WS analysis fits well with James' oft-expressed opinion that even the greatest players make a difference of only 5-6 games.
 
58Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 14:11
 
59Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 16:17
Just reported on Buffalo WGR 550: Joe Torre received an offer to continue as manager and turned it down.

Isn't that the best way to end it? Torre is class, and Steinbrenner et al are pure crap.

Torre now goes into the HOF, without doubt. Just as a catcher, he wouldn't have been a bad choice.

Toral

 
60Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 16:33
I'm hearing that the offer was 1 yr, $5M

That's the way to go. With $5 mil on the table, just to make it clear that it's not about money.

Toral
 
61Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 16:34
$5m with bonuses of $1m for winning each round of the playoffs, for a maximum possible $8m.
 
62Perm Dude
      ID: 295187
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 16:38
With that kind of money, Torre can stop working on the side as ARod's cabana boy.
 
63Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 18:03
So, does this mean the end of Rivera, Posada, and maybe A-Rod?

They must have known that he was going to refuse. Now they can say that they didn't fire him, he left if next season they have a bad year and people start crying out for Torre.
 
64tastethewaste
      ID: 69271121
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 18:13
Correct me if im wrong but isnt that a pay cut for torre? If anything I think this shows this was about the money. It seems to me Torre is saying how dare you cut my salary when Ive gotten to the playoffs 12 straight years. They offer him the same salary or a pay raise (how do you give a coach incentives?) he wouldve stayed.
 
65Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 18:28
electroman
the end of Rivera, Posada, and maybe A-Rod?

I think ARod is most likely gone and that there's a good chance Rivera could be gone. I think Posada is the least likely to depart, but still a distinct possibility. Pettitte can opt out if he wants, too, which I think becomes a strong possibility of Rivera and Posada leave.


ttw

You have to wait until Torre speaks to know what his reasons are. You might be right. Or it could be more about being left to twist for 10 days. Or it could be that he's just sick of dealing with the Yankees' high command. Maybe he ultimately decided that this was simply the right time for him to leave the Yankees.
 
66tastethewaste
      ID: 69271121
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 18:48
hmm, For some reason I cant see Torre telling the press, "5 mill a year??, im insulted, for 7 or 8 it wouldve been a done deal!
 
67Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 19:25
Bye bye Torre. He had a great run but Yankee expectations are much higher than what the team has delivered in recent years. I'm pulling for the Donnie Baseball era to begin and hopefully Girardi as a bench coach of some sort.
 
68Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 00:17
My first choice is Tony Pena. Haven't heard his name thrown around much.


I don't like Mattingly's inexperience. I have no idea how well he deals with heavy egos and I know he still doesn't look comfortable in front of the press. Dealing with the media and maintaining clubhouse harmony are every bit as important as competantly running the game and managing the roster. Both can come with experience.

I think it's a terrific they chose him to be groomed for the job. I'd like to see him given the best possible chance for success and tossing him in before he's ready is contrary to that.


The Bobby Valentine rumors are funny. He really doesn;t fit into the Yankee mold.
 
69Perm Dude
      ID: 295187
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 00:32
How about Posada as C/Mgr? This'll keep him on the Yankees, and will likely lure back Rivera.
 
70Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 00:35
ttw
I cant see Torre telling the press...

If it was specifically the offer I think he'd say so. More respectfully, of course, but he's a straight shooter. All he has to say is that they weren't on the same table.


Even though I said earlier this season that it's probably time for him to go, I'll sure miss him.

Bill James will never come up with a formula to accurately guage 'win shares' for a manager. While Torre's stubborn bulpen and lineup management may have contributed to the early season woes, I don't believe at all that another manager would have led them out of it. Add Torre to ARod, Wang, Chamberlain and anyone else who was essential to the team's turnaround this year.
 
71Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 01:01
PD
I don't like Posada's temper.
 
72Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 06:19
Mith: I don't like Mattingly's inexperience. I have no idea how well he deals with heavy egos and I know he still doesn't look comfortable in front of the press. Dealing with the media and maintaining clubhouse harmony are every bit as important as competantly running the game and managing the roster. Both can come with experience.

You gotta get your experience somewhere. Yes I'm sure Mattingly would get better beginner's experience in Kansas City or some other baseball backwater. I think Mattingly is used to the NY environment and has had years of experience as a player in that city. A solid former player bench coach like Girardi would help out in that situation as well.

For me it comes down to this; do the Yanks need a Bobby Knight-esque screamer like I perceive LaRussa to me (He's always b!tching about something.) or do they need someone who really knows the game and puts the chess pieces in the right spots?

Mattingly is someone that I think the players would be more prone to rally around than someone like LaRussa. He's a Yankee who went thru the bad times and I think he'd use this chance to its fullest.
 
73Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 08:12
No. I think he should continue get his experience as the bench coach, not in Kansas City. Have you seen him do a post game interview? The Yankees is not a place where managers come and successfully learn on the job.
 
74Perm Dude
      ID: 18948196
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 08:48
The Yankees is not a place where managers come and successfully learn on the job.

I don't know if that is true or not, but the Yankees, right now, probably need someone with some experience to weather the coming storms on the field.
 
75Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 09:06
The Yankees have hired three rookie managers in the past 25 years: Stump Merrill, Bucky Dent and Buck Showalter. They were hired in succession and all were brought in as upstart managers. Merrill and Dent were both nice guys who were eaten alive by the press. Merrill failed to garner respect from players. Showalter's hard-nosed approach helped him deal with the media but made him an enemy of the front office, even with Steinbrenner absent.
 
76JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 09:29
Like Mattinglyinthehall, I too think Pena would make a good candidate and hopefully like to see him get consideration. (although it is wierd to see the sentence begin I don't like Mattingly's ... in a MITH post).

I too am not sold on Mattingly being manager, only due to his zero track record. Past history in NY shows that it did not work well with Dent or Piniella when they had the job with little experience, two guys that perhaps would do well in the same position now. Mattingly would work perhaps if they can get him a solid bench coach and solid person to handle the pitchers until I am ready for him to go without the training wheels.

Bowa is a smart guy, but he seemed to wear out his welcome in Phila and was a little to firey. Players do supposedly respect him.

I like Girardi, but wonder how he'll fit in with the micromanagers in Yankee ownership. We kind of learned from Buck Showalter that that is not an easy relationship for a person in a similar mold, not to mention Girardi's Marlin experience. He or Pena however would be my first preference at this early stage.

Bobby V? Please. He is a great baseball guy, but I do not want to deal with his smug demeanor.

LaRussa? His rap is he cannot deal well with media criticism, but probably would be a solid choice (bonus if he brings his pitching coach along).

Others in the Yankee family who may apply? Mazilli? Randolph? Boggs?

Under MLB's policy of interviewing minority candidates there will be others in the process, so perhaps someone comes through that opportunity who can make an impression to management and ownership.

There may even be guys out there who throw their hat in the ring who we have not thought of yet.

I heard Guidry may be out as pitching coach. Will the Yankees promote Dave Eiland or perhaps bring back the PC they had under Buck, Nardi Contreras. Both Nardi and Eiland have been working with the Yankee pitching prospects that have worked their way up the system. Or, are they looking there for someone like Mazzone who is on the market, or will they let their new manager have say into the matter.

I'm sorry to see Torre go, the way it happened may not have been the cleanest. Could we see him in LA, StL, or Queens? I doubt we'll see him get $5M per anywhere else.
 
77Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 09:45
Eiland has at least some major supporters among the brass. I bet he's the new pitching coach. That's fine, but a rookie pitching coach would be another reason I wouldn't want to see Mattingly handed the reigns yet.
 
79JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 11:42
"I think the most important thing is whoever we hire, give 'em a chance because he's not getting the '96 Yankees. He's getting an even younger team or for the most part a team in transition. Give him a little while, we want to win the World Series every year. We're not stupid enough to think we can do it. Of course, we'd love to win the World Series next year." -- Hank Steinbrenner

This is the same guy who had one of the terms of Joe Torre's contract offer be that the contract's 2nd year only kick in if he made the World Series.

BTW, I think the Yankees lineup that the new manager will inherit (unless they lose ARod, Mo and Posada) is better than the 1996 Yankees was when Torre was hired. In 96 on opening day they had a rookie SS (Jeter), and were replacing Mattingly with Tino at 1B, and yes were quite a veteran team that had O'Neill, Bernie and Boggs, but included Mariano Duncan, Ruben Sierra, and Gerald Williams in their starting lineup. I think the rotation of Cone, Pettitte, Key, Gooden, and Rogers was slightly better in terms of expectations than next years rotation will be. The real difference 96 to 08 is Wettland, Rivera, and Nelson probably is the only part of the 96 Yankees that is standout better than the 08 team.
 
80Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 11:56
So they fire Torre for not winning the World Series and now they are all "we need to be patient" ?
 
81Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 12:02
They didn't fire Torre.
 
82Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 12:03
So they lowball, insult, drive out Torre for not winning the World Series and now they are all "we need to be patient" ?
 
83Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 12:20
I don't believe it was specifically over the Yankees' recent inability to win the World Series. I mean, sure, if they'd won a few of them in the last 6 years he'd likely still be with the team but I've never heard that specifically sited and I think the issues were much more specific than that.
 
84Razor
      ID: 136523110
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 12:23
George Bush didn't fire Mike Brown either.
 
85Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 12:33
The exits of Michael Brown and Joe Torre are not analgous in any significant way.
 
86Razor
      ID: 136523110
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 16:18
Sure they are. What was publicly announced and what actually transpired are different things. Both were sent "piss off" messages, in one way or another. I doubt you could find one manager who accepted a 20% pay cut.
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 17:26
I really don't know what you're talking about, Razor.

Post 84 suggests that in your opinion Torre was "effectively" fired, even if he wasn't techincally fired.

Whatever you're implying, what actually 'transpired' in Torre's case was the completion of his contract with the Yankees. they didn't have to offer him anything. He was offered a new (albeit lowball) contract which he chose not to accept. And the Yankee brass was entirely honest with the public regarding the details in their offer for Torre.

Re Brown, he was removed from his responsibility of managing the hurricane relief effort by Bush and sent back to DC. He later resigned as head of FEMA in national disgrace. As with Torre's case, I don't believe this is in any significant way different from (as you say) "what was announced".

Great One's point is that the Yankees' front office was unfair with Torre, which I believe is true to an extent, tho his description of the circumstances isn't quite accurate. Torre was not fired or driven out.

President Bush was not in any way unfair with Michael Brown. In fact exactly the opposite is true, he praised Brown's bumbling of the disaster response while people were dying and then delayed removing him from directing the response until after his incompetance had become apparent to the world.

If you're talking about their being face-saving aspects with the two exits, I fail to see any relevent analagy there, either. If you mean to imply that Brownie was allowed to resign to avoid the disgrace of an imminent dismissal, Torre's exit isn't at all. He obviously was not presented with a lowball offer as an opportunity to walk away with his dignity in tact.
 
88Perm Dude
      ID: 40946256
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 17:31
The offer to Torre was an offer intended to be rejected. There's really no other way to look at it. There's no practical difference between offering a contract you know will be rejected (i.e., negotiating in bad faith) and firing him.
 
89Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 17:41
Well there is a huge practical difference: Torre did not have a job with the Yankees to get fired from.

Also, I believe that saying the offer was intended to be rejected is an oversimplification and I don't agree at all that there is no other way to look at it. It seems very clear that the front office was very much split on the issue of whether Torre should be brought back. I have to imagine the element(s) who didn't want him (the media names Levine) would have preferred that he was not offered a contract for 2009 at all. I believe Cashman fought to get Joe back and that the lowball offer was the result of that negotiation.
 
90Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 17:58
The offer to Torre was an offer intended to be rejected. There's really no other way to look at it. There's no practical difference between offering a contract you know will be rejected (i.e., negotiating in bad faith) and firing him.

It was - lets offer him this, there is no way he'll take it, so it'll make us look like "well, we tried!" to the public.
They should have just not offered him a contract and told him his services were no longer required. Its disrespectful to throw that out there just to make themselves look a little better in the public eye.
 
91Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 18:32
It was - lets offer him this, there is no way he'll take it, so it'll make us look like "well, we tried!"

I'm quite sure that isn't the way it went down at all.There is no reason at all to believe that The Yankees wouldn't have simply not offered Torre a new contract if the consensus was to bring in someone else. In any case it would be awfully stupid for them to sit around for 3 days in Florida beforehand.

And the offer was definitely not a face-saving measure for the Yankee brass. I suspect that Cashman created what little leverege he could in trying to get Torre back, possibly attempting to push Levine (or whoever was on the anti-Torre side) into a corner by forcing him to agree to some kind of offer for Joe. Cash had to know that the press would have a field day if they lowballed him. The media was already complaining about letting Torre dangle before the meetings had even started.
 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 40946256
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 18:54
But they did lowball him. And the offer did allow them to save face. At least, with fans such as yourself.
 
93Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 19:09
And the offer did allow them to save face.

How in the world could you think that? I don't know of anyone who doesn't think the front office's handling of the thing was anything less than disgraceful. Do you? The local and national sports media has crucified them. Where could you possibly get this idea?


At least, with fans such as yourself.

Don't confuse my rejection of your, Razor's and Great One's interpretation(s) of events with approval for how Torre was treated.
 
94Great One
      ID: 201155199
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 19:18
I think they tried to save face... but unfortunately it backfired on them.

Also, great comment by the George's son about how he felt that the purpose of the incentive based contract was to better motivate Torre. I'm sure Joe really deserved that one. You are right, disgraceful how it was handled since the day Steinbrenner made the "win or Torre won't return" proclamation.
 
95Perm Dude
      ID: 40946256
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 19:34
I don't know of anyone who doesn't think the front office's handling of the thing was anything less than disgraceful

Besides you? You've spent a bunch of time here talking about how this wasn't a rejection of Torre, or how this wasn't an offer to be rejected by him.
 
96Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 20:00
GO
it backfired on them

Think about it, GO. We can be pretty sure that there was no consensus on bringing back Torre for '08. Torre had supporters and detractors among the front office. Consider: if everyone in the room agreed from the start that Torre would not be brought back it seems awfully strange that it would take 3 days for them to come up with a zany plan to lowball him and hope he didn't take it. The Yankees front office does have an awful lot of lowlights in its history but George Costanza was only an employee in fiction.

The most reasonable explanation IMO is that the anti-Torre member(s) wanted him gone (and wanted no contract offered - which is what companies always do when they don't want an employee back) and the pro-Torre member(s) wanted to make Joe an offer that they hoped he would accept. The pro-Torre elements were probably outnumbered or at least in positions of lesser power (Cashman is a pretty safe guess). I suspect Cash probably insisted that a contract of some kind be offered, creating the only leverege he could aside from his own resignation, hoping that the other side would realize that a lowball offer would leave them all with egg on their face. The other side decided they'd rather deal with the bad press than another multiyear committment to Joe Torre at $7m+ that isn't contingent on a 2008 Pennant.

The Yankees front office isn't a collection of backwoods yahoos. They run a billion dollar corporation. Much more than a shred of media savvy exists there. They absolutely knew that a lowball offer rejected by the media-darling Joe Torre would result in their being ripped apart in the papers, and on TV and the web.


disgraceful how it was handled since the day Steinbrenner made the "win or Torre won't return" proclamation

Agreed, GO. Although I do wonder about how much George's mental faculty is in tact and what his state of mind was at the time he made that statement. I do know that upon saying that to the media he was whisked away.



PD
You've spent a bunch of time here talking about how this wasn't a rejection of Torre

No. I've spent time talking about how Torre's exit from the Yankees wasn't analagous to Michael Brown's exit from FEMA, how there wasn't a consensus among Yankee front office to let Torre go and the offer wasn't an attempt by the brass to save face. I do so love being told what I think. Someone's got to make up for Baldwin's absence, I suppose.
 
97tastethewaste
      ID: 69271121
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 23:11
FWIW, listening to Michael Kays radio show (and who knows, he could be under orders from Yankee brass) he was saying that he was told that the offer the Yankees made had good intentions and did not expect Torre to turn it down. Sounds fishy to me since they didnt negotiate once torre said no thanks, but the offer was a valid one in the front office's mind and not some weird attempt to lowball torre to save face in the media.
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 40946256
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 23:21
MITH: You might not have noticed, but none of my posts had to do with Brown. And no, I wasn't thinking of him while I was writing, either. So it might have been that your responses to me (which also didn't mention Brown) were actually all about Brown. If so, I apologize--clearly I was assuming too little by restricting my commrnts on only what you actually posted.

Baldwin, indeed.
 
99Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Oct 25, 2007, 23:31
I only discussed Brown in posts 87 and 85. Both were addressed to Razor. If you think I'm contradicting myself then show me where.
 
100Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Oct 26, 2007, 10:24
Re posts 79 and 80 - a couple of items in today's NY Daily News on Hank Steinbrenner's comments:

Bil Madden
This is Cashman's dilemma: whoever he chooses will be directly tied to his own destiny. His three-year, $5million contract expires after next season and it was interesting to hear Hank Steinbrenner say the other day that Yankee fans and the media should have "patience" with the new manager because he isn't being handed the 1996 Yankees. Whether intentional or not, it came out sounding as if (in his mind) this current version of the Yankees, which is largely the product of Cashman, doesn't have the same potential as the team Gene Michael put together for Torre.

Maybe that wasn't what Son of Boss Hank really meant, but it also sounded like the new manager, even if he fails to attain ownership's goals, starts out with more job security than the general manager.
Bob Raissman
If Joe Torre was ultimately ousted because he could not deliver on the Yankees mantra, why, all of a sudden, they asked, should management have "patience" with Don Mattingly, Joe Girardi, Tony Peña or whoever the next Yankees manager is?

For this, some called Hank Steinbrenner a hypocrite.

Others regurgitated the Yankees roster and ripped Hank Steinbrenner for calling it a team "in transition." They said having "patience," and not expecting a trip to the World Series, from a team that could include Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada, amounted to pre-cutting the new Yankees manager major slack and not holding him to a Torre-like standard.

Never mind that in a few short sentences, Hank Steinbrenner lowered the bar, basically saying the mind-set around here has to change. And it has nothing to do with not wanting to win, or spending big money on players, or not wanting to get to the World Series.

The way baseball's postseason is constructed, the "best" team does not always win. And just because they are the Yankees, because of their mega-payroll and history of success, doesn't mean they're always going to be the best team in baseball. They certainly were not the best team all 12 seasons Torre managed them.

This did not stop the Yankees organization from pushing/selling the myth. It did not stop Mr. Torre from becoming the highest-paid manager in the game. It also did not stop the Steinbrenner family from offering him to keep him ranked No. 1, even with a pay cut. The offer did not meet Torre's standard. He turned it down.

That moment marked a change in the course of the Yankees organization. And Hank Steinbrenner's "patience" remark, when not viewed through Torre-tinted spectacles, indicates another huge change, a different approach to the Yankees' mission.

Reality may have finally set in.

 
101Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 00:40
ARod is gone!
Alex Rodriguez opted out of his $252 million, 10-year contract with the Yankees on Sunday in what appears to be the end of his tumultuous career with New York... Boras said during a telephone interview that Rodriguez made his choice because he was uncertain whether Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada and Andy Pettitte would return to the Yankees. Boras said it became clear that the others wouldn't make a decision by Rodriguez's deadline to opt out -- 10 days after the World Series.

If this ends up being true, I am fairly certain that he will be getting less money than he would have received if he had re-signed with the Yanks. There are somethings money can't buy... getting out of the Bronx, priceless!
 
102Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 01:16
The most excited about ARod opting out has to be the Rangers ownership!
 
103Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 01:48
It would be highly ironic (just to me personally) if Joe Girardi replaces Joe Torre as Yank manager.

Why? Because undoubtedly the worst prediction I have ever made in baseball was that Joe Torre would be a total bust as Yankee manager? Why? Besides Torre's lousy previous record -- the fact that he was keen on bringing Joe Girardi, who at 30 had been an unimpressive hitter in Colorado, in to be the Yanks' catcher. Torre said something about "leadership".

Which is a salutary reminder that production as measured by statistics isn't everything.

Toral
 
104Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 08:11
he will be getting less money than he would have received if he had re-signed with the Yanks

Quite possibly, but...

There are somethings money can't buy... getting out of the Bronx, priceless!

...that's crap. The guy opted out because Boras planted the idea of $30m+/yr in his head. You think he wouldn't sign with the Yankees if they were to present him with the best offer? Of course he would.

If ARod were more concerned with anything than his bottom line, he wouldn't have Scott Boras as his manager.

For probably any team other than the Yankees, it's a deal with the devil. Even for the top secondary market clubs (if NYY are the only primary market club) shelling out $30m+ to an aging ARod will cripple any roster.
 
105Razor
      ID: 136523110
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 09:28
I don't think you can pay A-Rod $30 million a year if he's not going to play SS. How is he $15 million better than, say, Chipper Jones, David Wright or Miguel Cabrera?
 
106biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 09:36
His biggest pay day would have been to resign.

My guess is he'll take less and play somewhere pleasant.
 
107Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 09:40
guess this is more appropriate in this thread...


And A-Rod? that just made it the perfect night, didn't it? Thats the only time I have ever remotely enjoyed anything Ken Rosenthal (or McCarver) had to say lol... but I still won't believe he is gone til I see him i.e. shaking someone else's hand in some other city and holding up some other jersey.
 
108JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 09:49
I'm real sorry to see A-Rod go, but am not going to jump on the NY Media's "good riddance" bandwagon. (On the day after Boston wins another WS, there are alot of angry Yankee fans roaming the streets today and alot of papers and radio stations looking to egg them on). I'm not going to speculate as to whether he just wanted out of New York, as a player of his caliber and salary is going to be under the hugest of microscopes anywhere. His agent always says this is ARod's decision but I'm sure this was the advised move by Boras, especially in terms of maximizing Rodriguez' salary, who can blame him. As far as value over other quality 3B, it seems their gameplan is to point out how much additional revenue a potential home run record chase and all the milestones along the way will relate into stadium revenue, team merchandising, and regional cable TV revenue. The other guys like Cabrera, Wright, Chipper and companay cannot bring that to the negotiating table.

Overall ARod put up great numbers in the 4 seasons he was here. I'm sure most people will focus on his lack of post season production, and I cannot argue if they do. Some are saying that half the seasons he was here, the Red Sox won World Series. I'm not sure how one caused the other, but then those critics forget there are alot of others in pinstripes who could then simarly be scapegoated who contributed alot less.

Unfortunately, it is going to be very tough to replace that kind of production in the lineup, and it will be interesting to see what options present themselves both for a replacement 3rd baseman, and a replacement cleanup hitter. Even though the Yankees are saying all the right things regarding them now not being in the running for ARod's services now, we'll see what actually happens.

If he is gone, I will be sure to stand and cheer when he makes his first appearance back in Yankee Stadium. Even if he goes to the NL, he'll likely be in the Bronx for the All-Star game.
 
109Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 10:22
Razor
I don't think you can pay A-Rod $30 million a year if he's not going to play SS.

If you'd watched him play every day the last two years I think you'd have some serious doubts about his ability to play shortstop at an average or better level. His reaction isn't anything like what you'd expect from a strong SS.

Also, the likely departure of ARod (which I believe most people saw as inevitable) somewhat validates the Hank Steinbrenner quote in post 79, especially with the returns of Rivera, Posada and Pettitte all uncertain. We may be looking at the first Yankee team in a rebuilding phase in 14 or 15 years.
 
110Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 10:35
My guess is he'll take less and play somewhere pleasant.

amen. only in a Yankee uniform can a guy be vilified for the type of seasons A-Rod has had.

additionally, the yankee fans in my office are talking about how classless it is that A-Rod makes the announcement in the middle of the Red Sox World Series clincher...

since when has anything detracting from the Red Sox been classless in the Bronx??? they LIVE for detracting from the Sox...ugh...
 
111JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 10:51
Tree: This time, it cannot be blamed on the Bronx.

Don't equate ARod's poor and tacky timing with anything coming from the Yankees. I'm glad the Yankees held off from making any managerial annoucements while the WS is going on. October baseball is still supposed to be baseball's showcase, and the focus should be about the participants.
 
112Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 10:58
since when has anything detracting from the Red Sox been classless in the Bronx??? they LIVE for detracting from the Sox...ugh...

Does anyone understand what this is supposed to mean?
 
113Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 11:05
Yankees "timely" creating of news to distract from the Red Sox (or Mets).

Not sure thye do it so much anymore, but they certainly used to (although dragging this search out has been convienient, since local papers and radio discuss Torre and the new manager and hardly any mention of the actual World Series)
 
115Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 11:12
Yankees "timely" creating of news to distract from the Red Sox

It was Alex Rodriguez and Scott Boras who created the news. So ARod and Boras sought to detract from the Sox' WS sweep because the Yankees "they LIVE for detracting from the Sox"? It's simply hilarious how some people will contort logic at any expense to their own credibility to trash the Yankees.
 
116Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 11:27
He is saying what A-Rod did here is what the Yankees are known for doing previously. So its ironic that Yankee fans are bashing him for it.

And you can't argue that George isn't obsessed with having all the headlines. He's always trying to stay on the backpage and have the Yankees be the center of attention.
 
117Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 11:45
ESPN's Buster Olney put it best:
The way this played out could not have been more apropos, because A-Rod needs to be bigger than the game; he needs to be more important than the Red Sox or the Rockies or any other team, or any other player. He is one of the greatest players in history at compiling statistics, the greatest ever at compiling wealth, and his next employer will have to buy into that. The World Series can't matter as much as A-Rod.

Wanting the headlines back? por ejemplo...

The Red Sox fired the first salvo with a successful pursuit of Arizona pitching ace Curt Schilling, acquired on 28 November.
Schilling came at a huge price, both in salary and in the form of the four players the Red Sox had to give up to get him, indicating just how far Henry is prepared to go to top the Yankees.

Still, nobody plays the "anything you can do, I can do better" game better than Steinbrenner.
And George was not about to sit around watching those punks from Boston steal his headlines.

Within a week of the Schilling deal, Steinbrenner created a major buzz with a trade for Montreal pitcher Javier Vazquez - one of the best young arms in baseball - and a reported deal with Atlanta free agent slugger Gary Sheffield.

The Sheffield signing has yet to become official but word is that Steinbrenner is personally negotiating the deal.
Apparently the situation has become too serious to leave in the hands of the little people.

Also a distinct possibility is the sight of Dodgers all-star pitcher Kevin Brown in Yankees pinstripes come spring.
 
118Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 12:02
ironic that Yankee fans are bashing him for it.

Since when have Yankee fans lockstep defended the doings of the Yankee front office? Further, George doesn't appear to be running the team anymore.


For those who haven't figured it out yet, the Yankees are entering an entirely new era, much more significant than the exit of Joe Torre indicates by itself. Steinbrenner's status is nothing more than titular now and the early comments from the new leadership structure indicate an approach similar to how the dynasty was built in the early to mid 90s, while George was suspended.
 
119JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:01
It's Gerardi
 
120Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:03
The decision likely ends Mattingly's four-season run as a member of the Yankees' coaching staff.
For me, the saddest news of the offseason.
 
121Perm Dude
      ID: 69312810
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:34
I found the ARod news interesting, mostly that the annoncers in the WS were talking about ARod's availability vis-a-vis Mike Lowell. There wasn't even a hint that the announcers had thought about ARod at shortstop--a huge upgrade over Lugo.
 
122JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:42
I like the Gerardi decision, but it's tough that the Yankees can't get the best of both and now lose Mattingly. Gerardi won the job likely because management feels right now he is someone who they are more comfortable in making the decisions, managing their pitchers, formulating a gameplan, handling the youth and veterans, and being able to represent himself and his decisions clearly under the daily scrutiny. Listening to all the candidates post interview press conferences, Girardi does sound the most "managerial". (Similar to one of Willie Randolphs biggest perceived problems when he was on the interview circuit).

The timing was bad for Mattingly, possibly in the same role under Torre a couple of more years and he'd be the prime choice. Mattingly has his number 23 on the wall for reasons more than just his great hitting numbers and stellar defense - his leadership during his playing tenure is unquestioned. I hope Donnie gets an opportunity to continue to season his bench skills, and as wierd as it will be to see him wearing a uniform other than the Yankees, I really hope he gets the chance somewhere right away as a major league coach or minor league manager.
 
123Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:44
I don't really see why the Red Sox would want A-Rod. They tried hard to get him a few years ago, didn't, and what happened? They have won 2 world series. Also, since the Yankees don't want him, there is no competition factor, with the Yankees.
 
124Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:46
I'm neutral on the Sox adding ARod. Sure I generally dislike him, but I can certainly see how it would be awesome to have him in the lineup (as a fan of any team would probably say).. but how would he effect chemistry etc? I'm not sure it would be a good thing. The money wouldn't be too much more with several big contracts coming off the books (Curt + Clement to start with).

And can he even play SS any longer? Thats been mentioned here and should be explored some more.

Personally, I'd like to see him at SS for the Cubs and his old buddy Sweet Lou. And they all get the playoff monkeys off their backs at the same time. That would be a good storyline and make for some interesting TV.

 
125Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:48
I also fear that if the Sox did get involved, that the Yanks would be forced to jump back in and it could wind up with him staying and it would backfire.

Think Bernie Williams when he was flirting with signing with Boston several years ago.
 
126Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 13:57
JeffG
I hope Donnie gets an opportunity to continue to season his bench skills

I'd bet the bench coach job is his if he wants it. The speculation is that Mattingly will walk away because he was lured away from his home in Indiana by George as the eventual successor to Torre. I suspect he'll probably just go back home to Evansville and that there's a more remote possibility that he'll follow Torre if Joe takes a job some place for 2008 (current rumors have Joe considering a position in LA -- I'd like to hear Razor's thoughts on that).
 
127Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:06
I kind of thought if Mattingly got the manage the Yanks and maybe won some titles, that could have been enough to get him in the HOF based on the overall career and MITH could then change his handle. THAT's my real disappointment with this.

Cause obviously his playing career wasn't good enough! :) I kid I kid...
 
128JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:13
I'm neutral on the Sox adding ARod. Sure I generally dislike him, but I can certainly see how it would be awesome to have him in the lineup (as a fan of any team would probably say).. but how would he effect chemistry etc?

With the eclectic assortment of players the Red Sox won with in 2004 (Pedro, Manny, the "idiots") they seem to have found a way to do it without worrying about 'chemistry'. One of the selling points of the Red Sox - If he ends up on any other team but the Yankees, Red Sox, and possibly the Mets, A-Rod will be expected to carry the team on his shoulders.

Maybe the Yankee directed "business like" approach was too corporate for ARod. Maybe being in a dugout where everyone calls it "Jeter's team" and being forced to move positions did not sit well with him and caused his relationship with Derek to go sour.

Arod should do fine in another locker room, especially if he warms up to a couple of key veterans and finds some friends in the dugout. No matter where he goes, he will put up numbers, but he'll find succeess if he relax and can be "one of the guys". Then again, maybe that is impossible with the desparity between his contract and his teammates.
 
129Perm Dude
      ID: 69312810
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:18
I've never known that ARod is some kind of corrosive clubhouse influence.

I would think that someone like Manny would be much more of a problem, and yet quality overcomes flakiness. At least, when you are winnning.

Now that the Red Sox see the benefits of buying their championships off the shelf, I don't think there will be any problem figuring out if they will toss their hat into the ARod ring.
 
130Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:20
Where ARod winds up really is an interesting question. If he hated playing in NY (which seems to be the case) Boston would likely be more of the same. Probably worse if his postseason trend continues.

The Cubs have a snag in that they are trying to sell the team, which will be much more difficult if they are saddled with $300m owed to ARod over 10 years.

Anaheim looks like a good fit as they've long sought another big bat in the middle of the lineup. Figgins can move to SS or 2b and maybe Orlando Cabrera can be traded, if someone will cover the $10m he is owed in 2008. Garrett Anderson is owed $12m in 2008, the final year of his contract.

SF can probably afford to pay ARod whatever he wants but ARod has said that he wants to play for a winner so I'd imagine that precludes the Giants from consideration. Of course he also said numrous times this year that he wants to retire a Yankee so it might be folly to take anything he says very seriously.

Mike and the Mad Dog are suggesting Los Angeles. No idea what their budget looks like. I'm curious about whether Arizona might have room in the budget for him.
 
131Perm Dude
      ID: 69312810
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:23
Cleveland has a lot of cash to throw around, but I don't think they'll get into a bidding war, as much as ARod's agent wants to get one going.
 
132Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:46
With the eclectic assortment of players the Red Sox won with in 2004 (Pedro, Manny, the "idiots") they seem to have found a way to do it without worrying about 'chemistry'.

Thats just it - that IS chemistry (the "idiots" et al)... look at last night, remember the shot of Papi putting the gum on Dice-K's head and then they did that hilarious hand shake? And of course all of the dancing they do and the bullpen drum corps... Its that kind of comraderie that is hard to potentially disrupt. I just can't see ARod out there doing the Riverdance routine with Papelbon lol..

Certainly I think some of the chemistry talk is overblown cause it obviously comes with winning, but there is still something to it.
 
133Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:51
Looks like its
NO
NO
Yes
for the questions in post #58
 
134Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:56
post 58?
 
135Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 15:28
Mattingly won't stay
Ray Schulte, Mattingly's representative, e-mailed a statement this afternoon on Mattingly's behalf:

"Don was extremely disappointed to learn today that he wasn't the organization's choice to fill the managerial vacancy. Instead, he was informed the organization offered the position to Joe Giradi.

"Don feels both Joe and Tony Pena represent true professionalism both on and off the field and he was honored to be among them as candidates for the managerial position. Don extends congratulations to Joe and wishes him and the organization good luck next year!

"Today is a very difficult day because managing the Yankees was Don's aspiration and goal since becoming the hitting coach four years ago. Even though this opportunity has passed him by he wants to thank Mr. Steinbrenner for his initial faith, inspiration and support throughout his playing and coaching career.

"Don will use this time to reflect on this experience while considering future family and career options. In the meantime, he did inform the Yankees that given the circumstances he won't accept a coaching position within the organization during 2008."

 
136Perm Dude
      ID: 69312810
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 15:55
Key word there is "initial." Nice hidden bitchslap by DM.
 
137Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 15:57
I don't follow, PD. How is tat a slap?
 
138Perm Dude
      ID: 69312810
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 16:01
The word "initial" implies that Mr. Big no longer has "faith, inspiration and support: for DM.
 
139Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 16:05
The word initial does change that whole sentence, doesn't it... well done Don! lol..
 
140Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 16:10
I don't think Mattingly meant that at all. Aside from the fact that such a comment is completely outside of his chaacter, DM surely knows that "Mr. Big" no longer possesses the mental faculties to run the team.
 
141walk
      ID: 7952415
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 17:20
I am glad they chose Girardi (sorry, MITH). He is the right manager for the younger pitchers and the NY media. Mattingly would have been eaten up alive with his laid-back attitude and lack of media experience. As long as the new Steinbrenners let Joe G. do it his way (with Cashman), this is the right move.

I am not bummed about A-Rod leaving as they have won series without someone of his caliber before, but I am concerned about what they will have to give up further to replace him. It could be a trade that looks like A-Rod + young talent for fill in the blank 3B on some other team (e.g. Miguel Cabrera, Chone Figgins). They'd save a ton of $, but I don't care about the money...I care about the loss of talent. We'll see what they do to fill the void.
 
142Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 17:26
Hey don't apologize to me, I was pulling for Pena. :)

It'll be interesting to see if they make a play for Cabrera, with Girardi having managed him in 2006. Cabrera has a reputation for being selfish and lazy and Girardi for being an authoritarian. If there's much truth to both, I can't imagine Girardi will want him.

Really I think I'd be fine with Betemit as long as his defense is solid.
 
143Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 20:59
MLB COO Slaps Boras for announcement timing - Boras apologizes
"We were very disappointed that Scott Boras would try to upstage our premier baseball event of the season with his announcement," Bob DuPuy, baseball's chief operating officer, said Monday in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

"There was no reason to make an announcement last night other than to try to put his selfish interests and that of one individual player above the overall good of the game," DuPuy said. "Last night and today belong to the Boston Red Sox, who should be celebrated for their achievement, and to the Colorado Rockies, who made such an unbelievable run to the World Series."

Boras said causing a distraction was an unintended consequence.

"I apologize to the Boston Red Sox and Colorado Rockies and their players, Major League Baseball and its players, and baseball fans everywhere for that interference," he said in a statement. "The teams and players involved deserved to be the focus of the evening and honored with the utmost respect. The unfortunate result was not my intent, but is solely my fault. I could have handled this situation better, and for that I am truly sorry."
Despite the apparent feelings of some that Yankee fans have no right to side with MLB on this ("ugh" as one Gurupie commented on the very notion) kudos to Dupuy for getting Boras to eat some crow.
 
144Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 01:14
Torre was on Letterman tonight and he said that the reason he turned down the contract was due to it being only guaranteed for one year and had nothing to do with money (whether that's the truth or not is another issue). There has been speculation though over the future of his job every year for a few years running so he must have just gotten tired of having to deal with that.
 
145Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 08:47
It could be a trade that looks like A-Rod + young talent for fill in the blank 3B on some other team (e.g. Miguel Cabrera, Chone Figgins).

If Cabrera is fill in the blank talent I feel bad for any other third baseman in the league not named ARod. Assuming people still think Lowell is not in his prime even after a great season, Cabrera is probably the best offensive weapon in the league at that position and arguably one of the best in the game from any position. So he's more than fill in the blank. He's a flat out offensive stud. Defense...well... But offense he's a stud.
 
146Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 10:09
Well the word is FL wants to trade Cabrera for prospects. He's eligible for arbitration this year and The Miami Herald expects him to be bumped to around $11m from his $7.4m salary in '07.
 
147walk
      ID: 2530286
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 12:44
Right on Miguel Cabrera...the NY Times has speculated about this trade for a few weeks now given that A-Rod's status was up in the air. I did not know about his alleged lazy work ethic, and clearly Girardi would have a view...If Joe G says it's bull or he can be coached, then I'd agree he's a stud at 3B. However, I hate the math in talent that we'd be trading A-Rod and young talent for Miguel Cabrera (and lotsa cash saved). Not a good result for us non-NYY pl;ayer check writers.
 
148Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 12:45
They call Cabrera the Pillsbury Doughboy down there.. needless to say he's been packin' on the pounds the last couple years.
 
149Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 12:56
If Girardi is as stern as some say then he'll get Cabrera to drop the weight. I would make a deal for Cabrera and not look back. It's about time the Yankees don't sign or trade for an over the hill 30-something that's past his prime. Cabrera could be a fixture for years.

Now if the Red Sox get ARod, we could have problems.
 
150Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 13:00
Then why didn't he get him to keep the weight down when he coached him in 2006?
 
151Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 13:22
Agreed, GO. I'm not interested in trading away any of the team's young pitcher's or pitching prospects for a discipline problem.

In fact, if they're going to trade any of those pitching prospects at all, I'd prefer to see them moved for position prospects.

Based on his career nuumbers, Betemit projects to a .260 hitter with moderate power (maybe 20-26 hr) and he's only 26. In a strong lineup and with regular playing time he should improve on that. If his defense is solid, that type of offensive production should be just fine.
 
152Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 13:35
In 2006 Cabrera posted a career high batting average (.339), slugging % (.568), and on base % (.430). So if we're going to fault Girardi for the weight problem (Cabrera has also grown 2 inches from 6'2" to 6'4" although I am not denying the obvious.) let's give him credit for getting the best out of a player.
 
153Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 14:24
if we're going to fault Girardi for the weight problem

Huh?

I don't want him and hope they stay away. the George Stenbrenner era is over. Please let it die. Didn't you learn anything in the last 6 years?

The yearly ritual of going after the biggest name out there was a lot more expensive and embarrassing and didn't prove any more effective than the process of inner development bolstered by modest aquisitions employed in Steinbrenner's absence.

And Cabrera is a defensive joke. Poor infield defense loses games and turns your pitching to crap.
 
154Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 14:57
Weight issues
Lately some are questioning Cabrera's weight due to the errors that Cabrera has committed at third base. Most had noticed his weight gain in the 2006 Spring Training. Teams and members of the media have cited Cabrera's weight as a reason why he might not have the endurance to sign a long-term contract in the 2009 offseason, when he is currently scheduled to become a free agent.[9]

When Cabrera joined the Marlins in 2003, he was listed at 185 pounds. He weighed 260 pounds for most of the 2006 season, although the Marlins continued to list him at 6'2" and 210; they now list him at 6'4" and 240. Entering the 2007 season, he weighed around 255 pounds to 260 pounds, causing some to question if he should move to first base for defensive purposes. Midway through the 2007 season, Cabrera weighed about 250 pounds, with a goal to attain his ideal weight of 222.[9]

When the Marlins went to Chicago to face the White Sox, Cabrera and countryman Ozzie Guillen had dinner; and Guillen questioned Cabrera's weight, saying:

"I'm a little upset with him," said Guillen, the former Marlins third-base coach now in his fourth season managing the White Sox. "I said, 'You're still young. You're going to keep getting bigger.' He knows he's got a problem. We talked about it." ...

"When you're young and you're good, you can get away with a lot of stuff," Guillen said. "When you're getting older and you go down, they say you're fat. Right now it's, 'Oh, he's a little chubby. He likes to eat.' When you're not hitting .340 with 40 home runs, they're going to call you a fat boy from Venezuela. You'd better lose some weight."

In response, Cabrera said, "If he says I have to lose weight, then maybe I do." [9]

Cabrera's numbers at the plate do not show a weight problem. But his defense has declined since his rookie season when he played at third for only 34 games with a .986 fielding percentage. He didn't play a single game at third in 2004 but played again in 2005 where he had a .971 fielding percentage. His numbers kept declining in 2006. In his first full season at the hot corner, he had 17 errors and .957 fielding percentage. So far in the 2007 season, he has a .937 fielding percentage and has matched his career high 17 errors in less games played.
 
155walk
      ID: 2530286
      Wed, Oct 31, 2007, 07:55
Well, if he's a fat, slow mo-fo who cannot field, then I don't want him either. I'd rather have a Lowell or another Mientkiewicz type player. I guess we have enough real hitters (Cano, Abreu, Jeter, Matsui, Posada). Gotta sign Jorge though.
 
156Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, Oct 31, 2007, 09:10
You can point to the fact that his stats are still good, but to me thats irrelevant.

The weight says more about two things to me - 1. a lack of discipline and 2. the more weight you pile on, the more susceptible to injury you are. Your knees and back just can't take it that long. He may be fine now, but I certainly would be leery of signing him to a long term deal.
 
157Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 19:14
Pulling from the other thread.........

13 barilko6
Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 15:08

I am guessing that the Yankees will throw the farm at the Marlins for Cabrera, as a way to spit in ARod's face.

14 Mattinglyinthehall
Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 15:13

I have guarded hope that the new regime has learned from its predecessor's mistakes.

15 barilko6
Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 15:26

They have been doing well in recent years with that, but I think now they might be thinking they need to save face for Torre and ARod both leaving. As much as the fans may have hated ARod, he still represents huge numbers at 3rd base. And nobody has ever left the Yankees because of a lack of money, have they? lol

I just think that there will be a frantic push to replace those numbers as soon as possible.
--------------------------------

Why?

We are building a rotation that could be 60% made up of kids under 23 years old in Hughes/Chamberlain/Kennedy or others. You have a bullpen in need of some new arms and those on the farm, even if you rush them up, aren't ready to contend for a World Series title, especially if Rivera goes. Even if you had A-Rod, this team is not ready to seriously contend due to a lack of experienced pitching.

They need to get younger in the field. They need a young catcher (psssst -- Cash, go get Jeff Clement) and new cornermen. Pissing away the farm to get Cabrera (as great a hitter as he is) will NOT be enough to push this team over the top in 2008 - so why blow those resources?

I am perfectly willing to go into 2009 allowing the team to grow into itself in 2008. Then break the bank on Santana and maybe a young hitter as you move into your spanking new ballpark. Don't rush it.....do it right instead.
 
158barilko6
      ID: 281018117
      Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 19:18
Don't get me wrong, I never said I agreed with it, I am just saying I wouldn't be surprised at all if it happens.
 
159Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 19:32
Well the signs so far (promising not to bid on ARod as a free agent and going with Girardi over Mattingly) are that the front office is moving from the Boss' best quick fix at any cost impulses. I think most of us can be sure that George would push hard for Cabrera. Time will tell if the new guard changes the approach.
 
160Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Fri, Nov 02, 2007, 13:41
Sources told ESPN's Buster Olney that before Alex Rodriguez opted out of his contract with the Yankees earlier this week, the team was told that it would not be able to meet with the third baseman unless it presented an offer of at least $350 million.

The Yankees pretty apparently leaked news to Jon Heyman to make themselves look better after the Joe Torre affair. They could be doing the same thing here. Then again, the idea of a $350 million proposal for a meeting is so ridiculous that it just might be true. Olney also says within the article that sources have told him it is highly unlikely that the Dodgers will seriously entertain the possibility of signing A-Rod. Nov. 2 - 1:34 pm et
 
161JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Fri, Nov 02, 2007, 15:19
Not too much of a surprise. The Yankees picked up Abreu's $16M option for 2008.
 
162Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Nov 02, 2007, 19:19
The Yankees pretty apparently leaked news to Jon Heyman to make themselves look better after the Joe Torre affair.

What makes you say this? Heyman wrote in the article, "The Yankees said Sunday night they hadn't yet heard from Boras or Rodriguez and were unaware of Rodriguez's decision. "We'll have to see the letter,'' Yankees president Randy Levine said late Sunday night.".
 
163sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 14:49
A-Rod wanted $30,000,000/month!!!!

Is the boy utterly insane?
 
164Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 15:00
I think you misread that, Sarge.
 
165sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 15:02
Nope...350 million is 10 mill shy of 30 mill/month. I didnt misread it MITH.

NEW YORK (AP) - The Yankees were told by agent Scott Boras that they could not meet with Alex Rodriguez unless they presented an extension offer that guaranteed the star $350 million "as a floor."
 
166Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 15:03
They aren't talking about a 1 year deal.
 
167sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 15:06
Prolly not, but when I see a $$ figure with the term "floor", my mind figures thats a 1st yr guarantee being sought. In any event, A-Rod is nuts if he thinks he is worth anything close to those numbers.
 
168Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Mon, Nov 05, 2007, 21:26
Pettitte declines option
 
169walk
      ID: 7952415
      Tue, Nov 06, 2007, 14:32
Pettitte just needs more time, and the NYY said they would give him all the time he wants. He is basically deciding whether to stay or retire. He says he owes a lot to the NYY who paid him huge $ last year and for that, he won't sign elsewhere (at least that's what I read he said). They need his experience and his arm. He can also help mentor some of the younger arms on the staff next year.
 
170JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Nov 06, 2007, 15:30
I agree with Walk about Andy. He'll work out on his own, sign with the Yankees about half way through spring training and be ready a week into the season when they first need 5 starters.

Or, it is possible that Pettitte handles it similar to his buddy Clemens and makes a surprise appearance in the press box during the 7th inning stretch of a mid-May game, and annouces to the team he'll be back in June. "Oh my goodness gracious!"
 
171Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 11:28
Yanks offer ARod arbitration
Cashman intends to offer A-Rod arbitration on the premise that he will almost certainly reject it. The Yankees have motives for doing so. If they offer him arbitration and he declines, they would be able to secure two Draft picks from whichever team ultimately signs him.

"Believe me, I'm going for the Draft picks," Cashman said. "So there's no doubt I'm offering him arbitration."

Because of A-Rod's high contract demands -- he reportedly sought at least $300 million -- there's little chance he would accept the offer. In the arbitration process, both the team and player submit salary requests to a league arbiter and are then bound by the ensuing decision.

Often, teams don't offer arbitration to star free agents -- and in doing so forfeit the Draft picks entitled to them -- out of fear that the player might accept. The team would then be forced to pay a salary it didn't expect for the upcoming season.

The Yankees have no such fear with A-Rod, due to his high demands. Any arbitration decision would result in a one-year deal with a no-trade clause, which doesn't come close to the type of contract A-Rod is seeking.

"Essentially, he'd be coming back in a non-guaranteed situation on a one-year deal," Cashman said. "I don't think they're accepting it."

A-Rod has until Dec. 7 to accept an arbitration offer. Should he reject, that would likely close any remaining window that he would return to the Bronx. The Yankees have said on numerous occasions that if A-Rod opts out of the remainder of his contract with the Yankees -- which he did during Game 4 of the World Series -- they won't pursue him as a free agent.

The Mets, Angels, Giants and Dodgers are all thought to be chasing A-Rod on the market.

Should one of those teams sign him, the Yankees would receive both a first-round pick and a sandwich-round pick in the 2008 First-Year Player Draft. That's no small consolation. In 2005, the Yankees landed Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy with those two picks, and a year earlier, their top choice was C.J. Henry, the main chip traded to Philadelphia for Bobby Abreu. In 2004, they took Phil Hughes in the first round.

Other notes in the same article:
In business: The Yankees are preparing contract offers to both Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera, in hopes of re-signing their two biggest free agents before they can talk to other clubs.

According to The New York Times, the offers will exceed the three years and approximately $40 million already proposed to both players.

"The offers are going to be very generous offers," senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner told the Times. "It comes down to what they're really looking to do at this point."

Under free-agent rules, neither Rivera nor Posada can sign with other teams before Tuesday.

While Posada's agents have met with Cashman during the General Managers Meetings in Orlando, Fla., Rivera's agent has not. Fern Cuza said his client was not likely to sign with the Yankees before talking to other clubs.

"I think we're probably going to just go on the market and see what's out there," Cuza told the Times. "We're not too far off from that period."

Trade bait: Contrary to recent reports, Steinbrenner said on Wednesday that he would not consider trading one of his big three prospects -- Chamberlain, Hughes or Kennedy -- for a third baseman. The Yankees have been linked in recent days to Marlins slugger Miguel Cabrera.

"As far as trading one of them -- and, of course, it would require someone else as well -- for a position player, I have doubts about that," Steinbrenner told the Times. "My choice at this point would be that those three, right now, are pretty much off limits. But that doesn't mean we can't work something else out."

Steinbrenner would not comment to the Times on whether he would trade one of those prospects for an elite starting pitcher.

Few top-flight starters are set to hit the free-agent market this winter, but a handful -- including Johan Santana and Dan Haren -- could be available through trade.
 
172JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 08:42
Hip Hip Jorge

Posada agrees to 4 year $52.4M
 
173Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 18:08
That's a lot of money for a cather in the final years of his career. Are the Yankees trying to build a new winner, or trying to hold on to past glory?
 
174Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 18:37
Personally, I take far less issue with overspending on aging tenured Yankees than overspending on anging players from outside the franchise. For example Giambi's current salary would be a lot easier for me to swallow if he'd played with the Yankees though most his peak.

They did the same thing with Bernie Williams and will overspend on Mariano Rivera, as well.
 
175Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 19:26
It's not really the money that I have an issue with, even though I wrote that in my post. It is the length. Catcher is the most physically demanding position, and players can look old really fast. He could be the 2009 Yankees ace personal catcher, going twice a week. He would be worth, IMO, 2 years with a club option on a third. But, it is the Yankees, they can get away with bad contracts.
 
176Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 20:06
I think the deal looks a lot better knowing that Giambi is off the books after 2008 and Damon and Matsui are off after 2009. This leaves options for drawing out Posada's production value at 1b and DH if he can't catch effectively any more (provided the Yankees don't go out and sign more aging position players to long term deals in the interim).

Also notable is that Posada was drafted as an infielder and converted to catcher in single A. So he supposedly doesn't have the mileage on his legs typical of guys who caught since high school or before, possibly meaning that he could have better longevity behind the plate than most catchers.
 
177Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 22:00
MITH

Your optimism is refreshing, but I'm afraid not contagious. I think resigning Posada and Mariano for the amounts reported is backward thinking. Will NY fans come out to see a struggling team in 2011, one that hasn't made it to the playoffs in a few seasons, in order to cheer for Jorge at DH? Will Yankee Stadium play "Enter Sandman" in the sixth inning?
 
178Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 22:47
Ha!

Well your projection for multiple non-playoff yankee seasons in the nect four years is noted. Extra boldness points for predicting their biggest draws in 2011 will be 39 and 41 year olds, Posada and Rivera.

Perhaps you are right and the current and coming farm products - along with the buying power from shedding Clemens', ARod's, Pavano's Giambi's, Pettitte's, Farnsworth's, Abreau's, Damon's and Matsui's contracts will more often than not fail to get the Yankees to the post season in the next four years.

By the way, what's your record for your annual spring prediction on whether the Yankees will make the postseason?
 
179Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 01:14
I never look back, unless I'm right :) That said, let me be the first to predict that the Yankees will miss the post season in 2008!

You heard it here first.
 
180Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 01:27
You heard it here first.

For the record, see post 9. Though that's not a prediction, just a thought entertained.
 
181Khahan
      ID: 221026129
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:31
Even as a Red Sox fan, I gotta cheer this move by the Yankees. Not so much for possibly talking to A-Rod, but for saying "NO" to Boras.

Good job. Let's hope more teams follow suit.
 
182Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:36
"We will not negotiate with Scott Boras," the source told the Daily News. "He cannot be in the room."

Nice!
 
183Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:37
Look who's crawling back already
Despite all of the back-and-forth posturing between the Yankees and A-Rod's camp, the Daily News learned today that the two sides have been discussing a deal for the past few days to keep the two-time MVP in pinstripes, according to a source with knowledge of the situation.

The biggest catch? The Yankees don't want agent Scott Boras involved in the negotiations.

A high-ranking Yankees source told the Daily News that the team is willing to bring Rodriguez back on a below-market contract, one that would make up for the $21 million subsidy from the Rangers that the Yanks lost when A-Rod opted out of the final three years of his contract.

In addition, the Yankees don't want to deal with Boras, who has been Rodriguez's agent since the slugger was 16 years old.

"We will not negotiate with Scott Boras," a Yankees source said. "He cannot be in the room."

The Yankees are also aware that Boras could convince Rodriguez to stop the talks. "We realize it could be a trap to get us back in the negotiations," said one Yankee official. "But we don't think that's the case."

Rodriguez apparently approached the Yankees through a third-party intermediary. "He went to them," said the source.
My reaction is mixed. I know its petty but it feels really good to see ARod and Boras make such asses of themselves after the way they left. That said, I'm all set for the post-ARod era and would really prefer to not root for him for the next 10 years.
 
184Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:47
Wonder who, exactly, is "crawling?"
 
185walk
      ID: 7952415
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:52
I do love that line: "he cannot be in the room." Given the dearth of 3Bs available, and the fact that "it's only $," I hope they do figure out a way to bring back A-Rod. Fcuk it. Give him $948570934578 trillion and just SAY it was a pay cut. Whatever. I really just don't want to have to TRADE anyone else to get an inferior 3B. That just seems like a double-negative. Might as well resign this guy, if we can. However, if Boras has been his agent since A-Rod was a teenager, I don't see how A-Rod is going to have this meeting sans Boras who is probably very well intertwined with A-Rod's bodily functions.
 
186Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:53
Yeah, I'd have to say the Yankees going back on their word would be the ones crawling.

Think about who needs who here...
A-Rod suitors? Mets, Angels, Giants, Dodgers etc Plenty of options.

Yankees replacement 3B? umm... Joe Crede?
 
187walk
      ID: 7952415
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:57
NY Times Reports A-Rod Wants to Talk w/NYY w/o Boras

Well, look at that? A-Rod potentially allegedly has expressed interest in discussions sans Boras. Ha!

I don't care who crawls to whom. It's ego and dicks that ruin the world (Iraq, Iran, USA)...let someone with a strong ego (i.e. okay with their penis size) say: "We need a 3B, he's available, and pretty good, we have $, we make the playoffs every year with him, the alternatives are awful, let's figure it out."
 
188walk
      ID: 7952415
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 13:22
Lupica's View
 
189Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 13:23
Yankees replacement 3B? umm... Joe Crede?

Wonder who, exactly, is "crawling?"

Well I guess its a matter of perception but the report is that ARod is the one who has initiated the talks.

I guess the Yankees and NYC weren't so bad after all. LOL

Think about who needs who here...

A-Rod suitors? Mets, Angels, Giants, Dodgers etc Plenty of options.


Um... If that were the case why did he contact the Yankees?

Yankees replacement 3B? umm... Joe Crede?

I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, GO, but there is at least one other very good option out there:
The Yankees contacted Mike Lowell's representatives Tuesday, opening conversations about the Red Sox's free-agent third baseman and World Series MVP.

Tuesday was the first day that teams could discuss dollar figures with free agents, and while the Yankees are not believed to have made an offer, a source with knowledge of the situation said that the Bombers made their interest in the 33-year-old Lowell clear.

Lowell is looking for a four-year contract, but the Red Sox are holding firm to a three-year offer. Lowell rejected Boston's last proposal on Monday, placing him on the open market.


It is unclear whether the Red Sox would be willing to give Lowell the fourth year, bringing the deal to the $52 million-$56 million range. Boston GM Theo Epstein has not shied away from letting popular players such as Pedro Martinez, Johnny Damon and Kevin Millar go in recent years.

Should Lowell leave Boston, the Red Sox will surely look into the possibility of signing Alex Rodriguez. The Red Sox are also said to be enamored with Florida's Cabrera, and Epstein certainly has the parts to trade to the Marlins for the young slugger.
I'd be just fine with trading 3rd baseman with y'all.
 
190walk
      ID: 7952415
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 14:01
Not me. Lowell to me, would now start the Damon like downside of his career. He's 33 and good, but not great...I'd see him hitting .260, 22 HRs and 80 RBI for the NYY next year. These are good numbers, better than Brosius, to help a team with good chemistry get into the post-season, but I feel with the young pitching, waste of a 1B (I'd want Mientkiewicz, but they are not going to resign him; I don't trust Giambi, and neither Duncan nor Phillips are everyday 1B's), still suspect bullpen and new manager, I'd rather have the power right-handed hitting A-Rod. Not even close, MITH. We need some stability and a solid core at the plate. Lowell would be a good cog on a different NYY team, IMO.

Posada (aging), Jeter (aging), Abreu (aging), Matsui (aging), Damon (aging), Cano, Melkly (good, good), 1B (ugh), and A-Rod. I feel like we need the rather age-LESS A-Rod, who never gets hurt, hits for power, walks a lot, steals bases and fields well. Some of those aging hitters are either going to get hurt or just have lame years next year. We just need him.
 
191Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 14:20
Theo seems to know when to get out with the Damon, Pedro, Millar types.
They all had 1 good to great year after leaving, and then started to break down for the remainder of their contracts.

So I tend to agree with Walk it wouldn't be a wise move.

Cabrera replacing Lowell (again?) in Boston would be interesting, and you certainly like the younger guy. But just like he in NYY, the city will crush him if the horrible defense, laziness and weight issues persist.
 
192Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 14:25
Walk

With Lowell hypothetically replacing ARod, The Yankees have an outstanding lineup. Easily top 5 in the AL, possibly in MLB:

Damon
Jeter
Abreau
Cano
Posada
Lowell
Matsui
Giambi/Phillips
Cabrera

Lowell brings a defensive upgrade, too. Something that far too many Yankee fans seem to greatly undervalue. Every team in the history of baseball that has won the World Series managed to figure out a way to do it without Alex Rodriguez on their team.

The Yankees did it in 1999 and 2000 with Scot Brosius hitting .247 and .230 respectively at third base and not a single player hitting over 30 HR in either of those two seasons!
 
193walk
      ID: 7952415
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 14:42
I hearya, MITH, but we disagree on the potential of that line-up next year. And, we also have a suspect pitching staff and bullpen. Our team could be .500 next year or worse, if our pitchers pitch the way young pitchers in their first full seasons often do. I am not optimistic until I see results. Hughes, Joba and Kennedy have proven little over the course of a 162 game schedule.

Hitting-wise, I like Cano and Jeter to continue to hit .300. Cano will be the best hitter in the line-up if there is no A-Rod. I expect Posada to fall off, but as long as he hits .250 wtih 20 HRs and still walks a ton, that's fine.

Matsui, Jeter, Abreu, Damon: One will miss 50+ games and another 40+ games due to injury. I feel the third will have declined production. They all have a tremendous # of innings and plate appearances behind them, with a lot of miles on their legs. Giambi will miss half the year or more with some bizarre condition or indictment. Shelley Duncan won't even last half a year on the team, and hopefully Andy Phillips hits .230 (fielding is key, and he's good at that).

I feel like we have an old hitting team...Lowell would be just like the rest. I like his D, 20 HR capability, and he is fine at .260/.270 for me, but I feel like we need a slugger in that line-up, and a guy who can play 160 games.

I guess I am just not optimistic given the age of our hitters and the age of our pitchers. It could be very good, or pretty mediocre.
 
194walk
      ID: 7952415
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 14:44
Oh, and I all I mentioned about the bullpen was "suspect." It's pretty bad. Somewhat very bad. A good bullpen matters more now than ever. I need to see at least two acquisitions in addition to resigning Mariano and Vizcaino (who is just so-so) before I change my assessment.
 
195Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 14:53
I agree with you walk. A lot of downside in that lineup--except for Cano & Phillips, all those guys are over 30, and next year they'll be in their mid-30s).

I like Lowell as well, but it seems a bit much to expect him to duplicate a career year.

And the bullpen? Feh!
 
196JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 16:38
WFAN is now reporting that ARod will likely re-sign with the Yankees. Yankee broadcaster John Sterling said on the air that his sources says it is a done deal.

11/14 statement from Alex Rodriguez

After spending time with Cynthia and my family over these last few weeks, it became clear to me that I needed to make an attempt to engage the Yankees regarding my future with the organization.

Prior to entering into serious negotiations with other clubs, I wanted the opportunity to share my thoughts directly with Yankees' ownership. We know there are other opportunities for us, but Cynthia and I have a foundation with the club that has brought us comfort, stability and happiness.

As a result, I reached out to the Yankees through mutual friends and conveyed that message. I also understand that I had to respond to certain Yankees concerns, and I was receptive and understanding of that situation.

Cynthia and I have since spoken directly with the Steinbrenner family. During these healthy discussions, both sides were able to share honest feelings and hopes with one another, and we expect to continue this dialogue with the Yankees over the next few days.
 
197Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 16:42
Oh well.
 
199Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 07:26
Lots of stuff in the Daily News today:
On ESPN's "First Take" Boras blames Rivera for Yankees' and ARod's 2004 postseason failure
The question posed to Boras was why Rodriguez's regular-season numbers haven't translated to postseason success.

"That's a characterization that, when you look at the data, is frankly inaccurate," Boras said. "If you look at Alex's first season in New York, I believe he was 7-for-16 with two home runs and five RBIs going into Game 4 in Boston.

"The brilliant Mariano Rivera, probably the only flaw he's made in a historic career over the postseason, if he got those three outs (in the ninth inning of Game 4), Alex would have been in the World Series and he would have been held to have a great postseason.


Yes, it's Alex who is crawling here
As it turns out, the one development that Alex Rodriguez didn't see coming, the one that caused him to finally stand up to Scott Boras and go looking to make things right with the Yankees, was the emergence of Hank Steinbrenner as the new Boss.

Oh, there were other contributing factors over the last couple of weeks that drove Rodriguez to this point, according to two people who talked with him during that time: the nationwide criticism he received for the timing of his opt-out; the absence of offers Boras had promised would be pouring in and, finally, the Yankees' pursuit of Mike Lowell.

All of it apparently made A-Rod feel as if the walls were closing in on him.

"He read all the criticism online from home," one person who spoke to Rodriguez said. "And when he was out of the country, he was calling people every day to find out what was being said about him. I think it got to the point where he truly was in a state of depression."

More than anything, it apparently was the very public and seemingly ironclad dismissal by Hank Steinbrenner after the opt-out that made A-Rod begin to re-think his willingness to let Boras once again dictate the direction his career would take.

"That's why he called me, to ask if Hank was serious about closing the door on him," a second person said yesterday. "From what I gathered, Boras had been telling him not to worry about what Brian Cashman was saying about the opt-out, partly because they knew they had George on their side.

"But then Alex saw the shift in power, with the Steinbrenner sons taking over, and here was Hank saying 'Goodbye, we don't want you if you don't want to be a Yankee.' Those words really messed with his mind because he really did want to be a Yankee."
(Same article) Alex is pissed at his agent:
According to people who have observed the relationship over the years, Rodriguez has always been grateful for the role Boras played in his life, from setting him up with personal trainers and mental coaches to making him wealthy beyond his dreams with that famous $252million contract. However, they say it evolved into something of a love-hate relationship, with A-Rod growing to resent Boras' control at times, quarreling with him on certain matters but always giving in to him.

That began to change, however, with the opt-out announcement during Game4 of the World Series that seemed to infuriate every fan, media voice and baseball executive in the free world. A-Rod had taken his share of criticism before, but nothing like this.

People who should know say that while Rodriguez had given Boras the go-ahead to opt out, he had no idea the agent would leak the news in a way that would upstage the World Series.

"He was blind-sided by the timing," was the way one person put it. "He was (ticked) and he got more (ticked) as time went on and he saw the hit his reputation was taking. The demand for his (merchandising products) dried up almost immediately.

"He was so angry at Boras that at one point he told friends he was thinking of suing him. Then there was a series of steps that led him to take control of the situation. The Lowell talks (with the Yankees) pushed him over the edge. He didn't want any part of going to Boston. So he made his move without Boras.

"I think their relationship will survive - there's too much history there. But I don't think it will ever be the same."

For once, then, it seems Boras pays for being a bully. Apparently he didn't count on Hank Steinbrenner showing up out of nowhere as a tough guy who couldn't be bluffed in the manner of his old man.
 
200JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 08:59
If they do re-sign A-Rod, you have to credit the Yankees strategy of not leaving an offer 'on the table' that other teams would know they'd have to beat. You could say that may have been their best strategy in keeping A-Rod in pinstripes.

By taking themselves out of the market, and letting the other teams dictate the market price in a situation where the Yankees were not involved, I think any offers or preliminary discussions were for alot less years and dollars.

As far as public relations hits, A-Rod's probably couldn't get much lower anyway. Boras will recover fine, still get's his cut of the A-Rod contract, and just move on to the next deal.
 
201Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 09:16
Does Boras still get a cut?
 
202JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 09:29
Yup - 6%
 
203Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 09:47
Unless ARod fires him, which would seem quite warranted. He refused to negotiate an extension with the Yankees on the promise of a huge payday (or as many people believed, to escape the Bronx) and now it looks like he will accept less money than he would have gotten with the extension to stay in pinstripes anyway.

While we can't know for sure, it's looking an awfull lot less like he loathed playing for the Yankees as much as SZ and Razor and others have happily contended over the past month. It's happening way too soon for it to be only about the disappointing market for him so maybe he really does want to stay after all.

My guess is that this guy has no idea what he wants. As Lupica suggested in yesterday's paper, he never been his own man. Boras has probably made just about every important career decision for him since he was 16 and I think ARod's blatant lack of character supports that.
 
204blue hen
      ID: 16322314
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 10:09
I don't think you can fire your agent mid-negotiation. Boras will get a cut of this contract. If ARod wants to hurt Boras, he'll go to arbitration. Otherwise, he'll just fire Boras after giving his cut.

I've mentioned it before, but Jerry Crasnick's License to Deal is definitely worth a read if you're interested in the world of agents.
 
205Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 10:15
I'm sure ARod is having his lawyers go over his contracts with Boras with a fine-toothed comb. And I'm sure there are more than one in-effect.

But ARod has done something very important--he's punctured the myth of Scott Boras by holding a small, internal revolution of his own. Good for him. Bullying, overweening, and power hungry agents are as bad as bullying, overweening, and power hungry owners.

pd
 
206Khahan
      ID: 221026129
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 10:26
Dont forget Andruw Jones did the same thing the other year with the Braves. He is a Boras client and ended up negotiating his last contract by himself.

 
207Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 10:36
I think 205 is right on. In yesterday's colun (linked in post 188) Lupica quoted 'a baseball executive not in the A-Rod sweepstakes' who said, "There are a lot of people in this sport who think Scott has a client control problem."
 
208walk
      ID: 7952415
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 11:03
Good one, PD #205. This is quite a story. I am not pleased with A-Rod's post-season play of late, but we need a guy like him, relative to the 3Bs available, to increase the odds of just making it to the post-season. I'd like him back on the NYY. It looks possible, and it's the right move for the NYY, and probably for A-Rod, too.
 
209walk
      ID: 7952415
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 14:10
Rivera Wants a 4th Year Guaranteed

Hummm, I don't want to lose Mo, cos our bullpen already sucks, but what he wants is unrealistic. He got a 3 year guaranteed contract offer at $15M per, more than any other closer by far, and he wants a 4th year guaranteed. I dunno if he's mad like this report says, but I hope this gets sorted. We need a reliable closer, and one that throws strikes. I want Joba to be a starter.
 
210Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 14:33
it's looking an awfull lot less like he loathed playing for the Yankees as much as SZ and Razor and others have happily contended over the past month.

When you opt out of a contract with a team that says, "if you opt out, we won't talk with you again," and that team was very likely the team that was going to offer you the most money, I think the only conclusion warranted is - he didn't want to play for the Yanks. There is one scenario I did not contemplate - ARod was railroaded into opting out by his agent, later regrets the move, and comes back with hat in hand. without said agent. Life is strange sometimes.
 
211Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 14:39
I don't know if it was this thread... but I said somewhere that I wouldn't believe he was really leaving until I saw him wearing another teams hat, shaking hands and holding up a jersey.

Unfortunately, I guess I was right.

Thoughts on this scenario?
What if A-Rod came crawling back and took this offer as soon as possible, because... he knows his name is on the steroid list.
Canseco already mentioned him in his current book, and unfortunately he turned out to be right more often than not.
 
212Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 14:40
Side note - "The List" should be out within the next couple weeks.
 
213Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 14:54
I think the only conclusion warranted is - he didn't want to play for the Yanks.

Not after they way he rushed back so quickly. And NYDN's John Harper printed claims to the contrary as well:
More than anything, it apparently was the very public and seemingly ironclad dismissal by Hank Steinbrenner after the opt-out that made A-Rod begin to re-think his willingness to let Boras once again dictate the direction his career would take.

"That's why he called me, to ask if Hank was serious about closing the door on him," a second person said yesterday. "From what I gathered, Boras had been telling him not to worry about what Brian Cashman was saying about the opt-out, partly because they knew they had George on their side.

"But then Alex saw the shift in power, with the Steinbrenner sons taking over, and here was Hank saying 'Goodbye, we don't want you if you don't want to be a Yankee.' Those words really messed with his mind because he really did want to be a Yankee."

Yes, there are indications that Boras had convinced Rodriguez that all of the talk about an opt-out ultimatum from Cashman was merely negotiating rhetoric, regularly reminding him George Steinbrenner was on his side.

After all, hadn't George taken Rodriguez's side on the infamous "Ha" play on that pop-up in Toronto, rebuking Joe Torre for saying A-Rod had been in the wrong?

And hadn't George, in that interview he gave to The Record during the division series, said he had every intention of making sure Rodriguez remained a Yankee?

"I don't think there's any doubt that Boras used George's fondness for Alex as a way of convincing him there was no danger in opting out," one person said. "They both had to know George was slipping, but maybe Boras was able to convince Alex that as long as he was alive, George would have the final say."
 
214Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 14:57
Harper's source agrees he was railroaded -- into the belief that returing to the Yankees would remain an option all along.
 
215walk
      ID: 7952415
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 16:14
NYY may Pay A-Rod to Break HR Record
 
216Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 16:56
Alex Rodriguez told the Steinbrenners he wanted to stay a Yankee and would sacrifice to do so.

What in heck is he sacrificing? I guess that it is hard to get by on 27 million a year after making 25 for the past 7.
 
217Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:03
He'd probably get more than that elsewhere, both in terms of a base salary and performance bonuses.

What is a little ironic to me is that the Yankees were getting ARod on the cheap all this time, what with the Rangers continuing to pay about $7 mill/year on ARod's old contract. So they were unwilling to pay market rate on him.
 
218Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:11
What are you saying is the market rate?
 
219Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:13
The sacrifice is that he is taking less money than he'd probably have gotten for not opting out. The implication is that the Yankees will pay him what they were willing to pay minus $20m.
 
220Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:17
His current contract is the market rate floor, certainly, plus the incentives that he'd get in another team's contract (above & beyond what he would get as a Yankee).
 
221Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:18
BTW, while I really like how this went down with Boras, I can't help but think that the MLBPA will get involved at some point. They certainly don't want it hanging out there, unchallenged, that a team can get a player back, cheaper, simply by telling the player that their agent "can't be in the room."
 
222Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:49
I hate when terms like sacrifice get thrown around with multi-millionares. A sacrifice is when a mother stops working, and the family lives on the fathers income so the mother can spend more time with the children. Yeah he will take less money, but it won't hurt him.


 
223Electroman
      ID: 73332719
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:49
The he in my last post is reffering to A-Rod.
 
224Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 17:58
Yanks reportedly talking with Lowell about playing first base!

I'm beginning to think my hope for a more conservative approach to the free agent market is folly. Yeah yeah I know.

Perhaps there might be some logical forward thinking. Andy Phillips is not an every day player at 1B, I don't believe the farm has anything on the way there and next year's free agent class doesn't look very strong, either. So maybe it makes sense to shore it up now.

Of course it leaves fewer opportunities to get value out of aging Matsui and Damon in the next two years.

I do like the idea of possibly forcing Boston's hand to give up prospects and budget space for a sign-and-trade with the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera, whom I think has a high probability of quickly becomming more trouble than his offensive production is worth.
 
225walk
      ID: 2530286
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 06:29
Jeter and Back Taxes
 
226Perm Dude
      ID: 171052169
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 11:12
A state government source said to establish residency tax officials could check Jeter's utility bills, where he has a driver's license and his employment records, including the Yankees game schedule.

This seems to me to be one of those things that should have already been checked and become known. So it says to me that his license is probably a Florida one, and the "source" has no information at all on this particular case.

That said, maintaining community ties and an apartment close to work doesn't make Jeter a New York resident on its own, IMO. He can't be expected to commute from Florida.
 
227Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 12:12
What is the debate on, whether they can tax his endorsement money?

I thought each player had to file prorated returns in each state he plays in, so Jeter would need to pay (1/81) of his salary to NY/NYC.
 
228Gman15
      ID: 521081511
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:52
You mean 1/2 (81/162)
 
229Perm Dude
      ID: 171052169
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:55
No, it would be the days he lives in New York for the whole year, not just the season.
 
230Gman15
      ID: 521081511
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:03
Good point PD - just a lot more than 1/81.
 
231Perm Dude
      ID: 171052169
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:15
Some states don't have that agreement with professional players (and some, like Ohio, will take a player whenever they come into town to play a professional game!). The problem seems to be that Jeter didn't pay state taxes at all.
 
232Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:24
I am not exactly sure how the law works, but from what I understand, if you work in different states some states make you pay taxes in that state for any day you work in that state. Also, I believe you have to pay taxes as well to the state where your company is headquartered. Then you also have to pay taxes to your home state and locality--if different--on your income taxes. Then if your home state has an agreement with the states where you were taxed, you have to file returns in those states as well. It's pretty messed up as it's you don't get all the money back like you should and you're in a sense getting taxed multiple times. Many athletes have their permanent addresses in a state with no state income taxes (like Florida) to save them a bundle of money.

It's pretty complicated, but I'm sure Jeter has an accountant that handles (or should have handled) all of that.
 
233Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:26
Oops, I meant 81/162. I don't see how Jeter could get out of paying at least half his baseball income to NY/NYC. Whether Florida is his official residence or not.


 
234Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:30
I always assumed they lived in Florida to avoid state taxes on endorsements and investments, etc...

 
235Gman15
      ID: 521081511
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:33
For NY personal income tax purposes, it looks like an athlete can use games played in NY to total games played (including exihibition games). As Razor said, I'm sure Jeter has an accountant that will figure out the best possible allocation for him.
 
236Gman15
      ID: 521081511
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:37
I mean Ref, not Razor. Sorry Ref.
 
237Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 17:17
It is my understanding that athletes only get paid their salary during the season. Preseason and exhibiiton games are apparenlty on a per diem basis and I think everyone gets the same amount during that time.
 
238Perm Dude
      ID: 3110341616
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 17:34
I was under the impression that they get paid all year long--it is certainly better tax-wise to do it over the whole year.

I just sent a note to the MLBPA with that question--will post if they respond.
 
239BigBobE
      ID: 2894997
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 20:18
RE : 237, 238

I was a bank account rep for pro sports teams a few years back. They were paid on the 15th and the 30th, all year...
 
240Perm Dude
      ID: 3110341616
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 20:22
Thanks, Bob!
 
241Perm Dude
      ID: 3110341616
      Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 20:48
Admin judge order
 
242Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Nov 17, 2007, 12:38
Some hope restored:

NYDN source: The Yankees are not engaged in talks to bring Mike Lowell to New York to play first base
There have been several recent reports that the Yanks, who had contacted Lowell about third base when they believed they had a vacancy there, were pursuing Lowell with the caveat that he move across the diamond. One Boston TV station reported the Yankees had made a four-year offer worth $50 million-$55 million to the 33-year-old. That report, according to a source, was "pure fantasy." The Yankees already have Andy Phillips, Shelley Duncan and Jason Giambi to use at first base and, according to a source, don't want to make a major investment in another player at first, especially if that player would have to switch positions to play there.
 
243walk
      ID: 4711118
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 09:13
NY Daily News is reporting that the NYY have offered Phil Hughes (and Melky and another non Job, Kennedy minor league pitcher) to the Twins for Johan. I am ambivalent. Santana is tops, but I'd rather keep the young talent and build with it. Hughes might not ever pan out, that can happen with any player. Santana's arm might fall off (same with Hughes). Still, I think it's now going to happen. Please discuss.

Yanks Offer Hughes
 
244Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 11:03
ambivalent.

Same here. The biggest reason for the Yankees to covet him is the logic that he should theoretically make them tougher to beat in a playoff series. His playoff record in 5 career starts is pretty good, especially considering that 4 of those starts came against the Yankees in 2003 and 2004: 27.2ip, 28h, 9er, 8bb, 26k.

His smallish frame for a pitcher worries me a little, as strikeout pitchers who aren't big hosses tend to be more likely to develop arm trouble. At 29, he might be just entering the danger zone.

But the real issue for me is sacrificing the pride associated with boasting a roster loaded with homegrown talent and Melky Cabrera is a part of that, too. This move would also require the Yankees to find someone to play CF and it doesn't look like the farm system has any strong candidates. Tabata isn't close to ready and Justin Christian might be worth a look but chances are they'd have to go out and get someone. If this deal happens, say hello to Andruw Jones. Although coming off a poor season, Jones might only be looking for a 1 year deal, anyway. Still, this isn't quite the way I hoped the winter would go.

But again... with Pettitte looking more likely to retire... damn ambivalence!
 
245Razor
      ID: 301151110
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 11:51
Santana is the best pitcher in baseball. This is not some #1 starter. This is THE #1 starter. It's like getting Maddux, Johnson or Clemens in their primes.
 
246Perm Dude
      ID: 2710413011
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 15:00
I agree. And I don't think there is a reticence about giving up homegrown talent on the part of the Yankees. They are just lowballing the Twins.
 
247Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 15:13
How is this lowballing?
 
248clv
      Sustainer
      ID: 5911351713
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 15:50
THIS certainly isn't lowballing...WOW!!!

You've Got To Be Kidding Me!!!
 
249Perm Dude
      ID: 2710413011
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 16:06
How is this lowballing?

Prospects for the #1 pitcher in all of baseball is lowballing, IMO, particularly since the Twins already made moves for three very good young players.

Without a plug & play pitcher the Twins lose, IMO. Hughes is, at best, a #4 pitcher right now, and has yet to prove himself at the ML level. Santana is 28 years old, and entering his prime, believe it or not. Baring injury, Santana is likely to be a top MLB pitcher for the next 4-5 seasons.

I'm not discounting the prospects, but Santana has proven his mettle to be the top guy in all of baseball. The rest have the tools to do the job and that's all.
 
250Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 16:10
I'm under the impression that prospects are exactly what the Twins are asking for. The Twins don't expect to be offered Josh Beckett or Albert Pujols for Johan Santana.
 
251Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 16:24
re post 249

Whether the Mets would offer Reyes for Santana has been a major topic of local discussion since the beginning of the playoffs. Earlier this year (and also in the past week, I believe) The Mets said that he and Wright are untouchable.

I think I'd like to see Santana go to the Mets. Gets the Red Sox out of the running and its a place where a pitcher can really thrive. Well, Shea is a place where pitchers thrive. I guess Citi Field remains to be seen.
 
252Perm Dude
      ID: 2710413011
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 16:26
I don't know that we know what they asked for, "exactly." My understanding is that earlier rumors included Cano, for example, so obviously the offer we're now seeing is a compromise offer, not one that is what the Twins asked for originally.
 
253Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 20:42
Well i guess everyone is gonna lowball them. They know they'll lose this awesome commodity in a year and have made it clear that they might sacrifice the chance of putting it all together in 2008 to trade it in for the best inexpensive long term package possible.

So whatever they get, they won't be able to plug and play talent value equal to Santana.

The NYDN said this week that the Twins are not interested in Chien Ming Wang as any part of the package. I know a lot of people are down on Wang but since he arrived he's kept his ERA and WHIP respectable in the American League and he doesn't give up extra base hits - in his career he's kept opposing hitters to a .371 SLG. His .368 SLG allowed was 7th best among AL starters. Wang is two years younger than Santana and will make just over $500k this year and should remain relatively inexpensive for another 2-3 years. He'll never likely be an ace, but he's a young and established #2 quality starter with his prime years in front of him.

I don't think the Twins are necessarily demanding talent with a great chance for high-level play in 2008. I think their interests are more long-term.
 
254Perm Dude
      ID: 2710413011
      Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 22:15
So whatever they get, they won't be able to plug and play talent value equal to Santana

Oh, I'm not denying that. But an established front-of-the-order pitcher would seem to be in order, IMO.

I like Wang--the last couple of seasons he stepped into the breach, as it were, and kept the Yankees in games that other starters were wilting in. And doing it in New York City really means something, IMO.
 
255walk
      ID: 4711118
      Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 15:21
I expect this trade to be made imminently, either with the sox or the yanks. NY Times today says the Twins want Hughes, Melky AND Kennedy cos they don't think Melky is anything significant. NYY will not give them two of their top pitching prospects they say. If the twins don't flex on this, they will move on to Haren.

Twins Looking to Up Ante for Santana
 
256Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 00:07
As a Twins fan, here are the deals I would like to see, in order:

1. Mets give us Jose Reyes and ...a ham sandwich.
2. Red Sox give us Jacoby Ellsbury and Clay Bucholtz. Look, this is Johan Santana. No one is going to beat the four-headed hydra that is John, Beckett, Dice-K, and Schilling. You will own the AL East for the next four years, period. Jacoby and Clay are hardly a high price to pay to become a dynasty, they are unknowns.
3. Yankees give us Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and Ian Kennedy. Hey, Melky is an average outfielder and will never be anything more. Hughes as great potential, but has but a sliver of a chance of being as good as Johan. Johan's next four years will very likely better than anything Hughes ever produces. The yanks need to make this deal to keep Johan out of Boston because their goose will be cooked if he ends up there.
4. Yankees give us Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and a ham sandwich, but one from Carnegie Deli. Of the prospects offered, I value Hughes more than Bucholtz or Ellesby or Lester.
5. Sox give us Ellesby & Lester and some throw in. Again, miss out on this opportunity now & you'll end up looking like the Colts looking at the Patriots with Randy Moss shredding the league apart. Keep the Yankees down for good, please!
 
257walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 06:05
SZ, I must say, the rationale for what you want as Twins fan does not seemingly come from value but from the other teams' outcomes (e.g. bosox be dominant for four years; NYY keeping Johan out of boston). On the one hand, market forces dictate price, so I get that element of the economics, but on the other hand, value is absolute. If you want to extend your logic, I think both AL East teams can offer less cos we are then saving the Twins major Johan $ for 2008 and taking on major costs ourselves...you'd have to factor that in and lower the value of the guys the Twins are getting if you consider all of the eco factors.
 
258walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 06:06
ESPN: Sources say Sox Offer Elsbury

...but they would not give Elsbury AND Lester together.
 
259Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 10:27
Yanks are out of the Santana bidding if teh Twins don't accept their offer by tonight.
"I'm not going to be played against the Red Sox. That's not something I'll do. That's not something the Yankees should ever do, and that's I think what they're trying to do now," Steinbrenner told the Associated Press Sunday. "So if they want the best offer that has been offered to them, then they need to make up their minds."

Late last week, the Yankees reached the decision internally to supplement their pitch for Santana with right-hander Phil Hughes, the club's first round draft selection in 2004 and widely considered one of baseball's top pitching prospects.

New York's latest -- and, with Steinbrenner's statement, apparently final -- offer for Santana is believed to consist of Hughes, outfielder Melky Cabrera and a mid-level Minor League prospect that Minnesota would select from a group.

Time could be of the essence to Minnesota, especially with new developments arising daily. FOXSports.com reported Sunday that Santana has informed the Twins he would not consider waiving his no-trade clause during the season, creating more of a sense of urgency.

More: Pettitte is back for 2008!


 
260walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 13:27
Good new about Pettitte. He's clutch, and would be a good mentor to whatever young arms are left after any trading (joke intended). I read in the NY Times today that the As are indicating that they would want both Hughes and Kennedy for Haren, and the NYY are already saying they would not do that.
 
261Perm Dude
      ID: 51111428
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 13:31
I'm not going to be played against the Red Sox...

We're the Yankees, dammit! We get the first pick!
 
262Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 13:41
Such a biased interpretation, PD! I felt drawing a line in the sand was a completely appropriate stance given the situation.
 
263Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 14:28
If anyone needed another assurance that this is no longer the George Steinbrenner yankees, there it is.

here's some more from the same article:
We'll see how it goes, but this is not an act. It's not a bluff. It's just reality," Steinbrenner said. "Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear -- for his sake, to know that I do want him -- but the fact is that I'm not going to play the game.

"We've made them the best offer. And at this point, it's not going to get any better. So they can decide. At this point, it's up to them. I don't think they want to lose us in this thing, obviously. Nobody wants to lose the Yankees in a negotiation."
 
264Perm Dude
      ID: 51111428
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 14:40
LOL, Species! Yeah, getting miffed about being in a bidding war is appropriate. You do what is best for your team, and if you have to get into an open bidding war with another team (as, say, every onther MLB team has to do) you suck it up and do what is best for your team.

I agree with you MITH--this is not George Steinbrenner's team. But the end makes my point: "Nobody wants to lose the Yankees in a negotiation." LOL! Except anyone who gets a better offer elsewhere, I suppose.
 
265Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 14:52
I don't disagree with you PD but such an ultimatum is not an unreasonable position to take. And I like the tough guy posture, even if the quote is a little silly.
 
266Perm Dude
      ID: 51111428
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 14:54
Sure, but doing so publicly adds the arrogant dimension to it. You can be tough in negotiations, but doing so in public while saying the things they are saying...the Yankees are turning into Red Sox fans!
 
267Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 15:16
I take no issue with that type of arrogance from the front office. Bullish is just fine when you're dealing from a position of such strength as the Yankees currently are. I'd bet Hank wouldn't have offered Hughes this weekend of he knew Pettitte was returning. He won't pull it back now but with the priority of landing another starter covered, he can demand a yes or no answer now and walk away happy with either result.
 
268Perm Dude
      ID: 51111428
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 15:31
I'm not so sure that the Yankees are dealing with a position of strength (that is, they can do without Santana). If so, they wouldn't get all pissy about the Sox being in it and try to take their ball and go home.

I think you might be right about Hughes, but that would just make an alternative offer even less enticing to the Twins. And if the offer isn't one the Yankees want they can simply, and privately, withdraw the offer. They didn't have to draw a bright and public line.

In other words, the arrogance isn't in the offer. It is in how they choose to negotiate, and what words they are making public.

All just my opinion, of course. The Yankees have some excellent young pitchers (Wang/Hughes/Chamberlain should be very interesting to watch). But they are acting as though they already have three Santanas in their rotation, when they might be Scott Sanderson, Hideki Irabu, and/or Roger Clemens (year 2001). We just don't know!
 
269Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 16:38
PD said: But the end makes my point: "Nobody wants to lose the Yankees in a negotiation." LOL! Except anyone who gets a better offer elsewhere, I suppose.

I'm curious as to what you find so funny about this quote - I'd imagine I mistook your meaning. Do you think what he said isn't true? Wasn't the A-Rod situation a perfect example of the need for the market to have the Yankees bidding? With no NYY in the A-Rod market, Boras got caught with his pants down overestimating the REST of the market. In this situation, Minnesota is quite expertly trying to play off of two of the biggest rivals in the game to their own benefit. But if the Yankees are all of a sudden NOT in the bidding, their leverage against Boston (and others) is severely lowered.

While true there is a degree of truth to that statement being arrogant, it's also a true statement, as indicated by the A-Rod episode.
 
270Perm Dude
      ID: 51111428
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 16:42
I'm not sure what you mean. There have been several ARod situations, the latest one being ARod, who wanted to stay in NY, slapping his agent around a bit. There was no market involved.

This isn't really analogous to an open bidding in which the Yankees decide they want to publicly pull out because they haven't gotten what they want right away.
 
271Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 17:07
I am focusing on the A-Rod opting out, becoming a free agent, then going back to the Yankees "episode".

No market involved? The man was officially a free agent. I think you are underestimating what happened. From my view Boras overplayed his hand completely. When he had A-Rod opt out he began sniffing around for what other teams would offer. After a period of time, when it became very clear that nobody else was going to come close to the Yankees' initial extension offer, and he communicated that to A-Rod, they came back to the Yankees because they would be the only team to approach the initial extension offer.

I used that to illustrate my thought that what Hank side, while certainly slightly arrogant, was also very true. Every agent would likely want the Yankees involved in a free agent negotiation, as it might make that other team bite the bullet on a bigger offer. Every GM would probably like to have the Yankees involved in trade negotiations, as they can play the Yankees off of the other teams from which they are trying to extract the best package. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
272Perm Dude
      ID: 51111428
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 17:18
I say there was no market involved, because while ARod was technically a free agent, he wasn't interested in playing for anyone else. In fact, the hubbub was all caused by Boras trying to make it a market issue. We didn't receive any indication from ARod himself that he wasn't happy to be in NY--all the crap was coming from Boras, who seemed to be saying so to get a bidding war started.

At the time I applauded the move by the Yankees, since Boras needs to get knocked down a few pegs, IMO.
 
273Seward Norse
      ID: 297412913
      Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 11:18
How do the Yankees expect to compete with Boston's staff(including Johan)? Seems like the deadline was a very poor decision...
 
274walk
      ID: 2530286
      Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 12:00
Well, by logic, how can anyone compete with Boston's staff? As long as there is a wild card, there's room for two teams. If there was no wildcard, we'd have to get Santana, no question cos Boston's staff would then be too tough for us to get into the playoffs. Otherwise, the issue becomes a larger one for any team in the playoffs...how to beat a staff of Santana, Beckett, Schilling and DiceK in the playoffs.
 
275Great One
      Sustainer
      ID: 053272014
      Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 13:51
Interesting note - Ellsbury fired his agent and hired Boras...
 
276Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 01:49
Yanks sign LaTroy Hawkins for 1 year at $3.75m.
He is expected to fill the role of right-hander Luis Vizcaino, who declined the Yankees' offer of salary arbitration last week. Vizcaino, who is seeking a multiyear contract, is expected to sign elsewhere.
 
277Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 12:13
I have a fond place in my heart for LaTroy. As a Twins fan, I remember him as our top prospect many years ago. I remember his debut up in The Show... it wasn't pretty. He was seriously overthrowing, really wild. He was eventually put in the pen because he was absolutely awful as a starter. With hopes of being a closer someday, he looked decent in 2000, but when elevated to closer in 2001, he was awful. It seems that he doesn't handle pressure well.

Well, he's older now, but Yankee fans are proud of the fact that playing in the Bronx hyper intense. I hope LaTroy doesn't fold, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.
 
278clv@folks'
      ID: 1711132312
      Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 22:27
Better step it up now Boss Jr. With Haren off the market, there's no longer a fall-back plan...bet Bedard's a Dodger before Monday.
 
279rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sat, Mar 15, 2008, 20:12
"I don't want these teams in general to forget who subsidizes a lot of them, and it's the Yankees, the Red Sox, Dodgers, Mets," he said to The New York Post. "I would prefer if teams want to target the Yankees that they at least start giving some of that revenue sharing and luxury tax money back. From an owner's point of view, that's my point."



link

Sure hank. Maybe the 4 of you could go take your ball and go home. I'm sure yhou'd be better off by yourselves than with the TBs. Pitts, FLA's, MInn's, SEA's, etc... of the world. For God's sake, who is gonna pay to watch LA V. NY beat up on each other for the next 20 years?

As a PIT fan, I laugh each year at the NY and LaD offseason thread where you debate how many 10's of millions you sould pay Jorge or Roger or Pedro or how much is Johan worth. Do you realize, Pitt needs $500m contract offer to get Johan to retunr a phone call?

So, full of yourselves, Hanks of the world. good luck when the league shrinks to 6 teams.
 
280Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Mar 16, 2008, 09:02
LOL! As long as there's someone to reign in free spending impulses he seems to have inherited from his father, I think I'm going to like the Hank Steinbrenner era.
 
281Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 13:12
How the Arod deal went down.