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Forum: base
Page 19427
Subject: Mitchell Report

Posted by: ChicagoTRS - [4110481415] Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 10:24

Released today at 2pm ET...

Rumor is the Rocket will be one of the prominent names. What does this do to his legacy?

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 10:48

"A source close to a former Yankees strength trainer tells ESPN The Magazine's Shawn Assael that the trainer told Mitchell investigators he supplied Roger Clemens with steroids; information supplied by this trainer is in the Mitchell report. According to one industry official who spoke to [the] Bergen Record, 'several' prominent Yankees will be named in the Mitchell report."-- 12.13.07 9:57 a.m., ESPN News scroll

barilko6
ID: 491137128
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 10:53

Which names will hurt baseball the most if they appear on the report?

I say:

Jeter
A-Rod
Prince
Pujols

And, I know its never going to happen, but:

Frank Thomas and Curt Schilling

Just because of how outspoken they were about the whole steroids issue.

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 11:42

The List being passed around contiued....

Kyle
Donor
ID: 052753312
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 11:48

GO your link is wrong :)

Frank better not appear on this Report. As a longtime Sox fan, Frank has been one of my favorite players. That would crush me personally.

Oh and Bernie Williams. Anyone thinking he could be one of the 'several prominent' Yankees? I think Rocket, Giambi, and maybe a couple retired mid 90's Yankees will be on the list.

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 12:15

Clemens and Pettitte have been talked about on ESPN all morning.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 12:19

Paul O'Neill?
Jorge Posada?
John Wetteland?
Chili Davis?

Perm Dude
ID: 37117129
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 12:27

Joe Torre?

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 12:30

Would be interesting to see he reaction if someone like Jeter was on the list.

Kyle
Donor
ID: 052753312
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 12:38

Maybe Steinbrenner is on 'roids! :)

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:03

re:7 I hope so... certainly don't want to see The Captain Varitek on it.

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:06

A previous report by WNBC naming many prominent MLB players, including Albert Pujols and Roger Clemens, has been disputed by an MLB official who has seen the Mitchell Report.

Rumors have been flying all morning about the potential names that will be released, though nothing has been verified. While WNBC's reported list seems plausible, it is likely we won't know the true identities until the report is officially released at 2:00 p.m. EST. Dec. 13 - 12:02 pm et

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:08

I expected to see Gagne on it, but Twarpy said he couldn't be listed because he is Candian. *Boggle*

Toral
ID: 575542418
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:11

Bret Boone! Who would ever have guessed? (And yes I am still bitter that I traded for him the year he supposedly went off the juice)

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:11

Btw, there will be a LOT of people who are not on this list who used steroids.

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:26

I only care about the names on the Mitchell report for sheer curiosity. Outside of that, I believe the report is worthless and is as much of a debacle as Seligs handling of roids or of the tied All-star game the other year.

One really big problem I have with the report is that Mitchell himself admits that the degree of use cannot be pinned down. Many will say,"A user is a user. Once, twice or every day, it doesnt matter."

However that still doesn't tell the whole story. McGwires name is on the report. We know for a fact that he used the performance enhancing drug Andro. But it was neither criminally illegal nor banned by baseball when we know he used it. Is that taken into account? Nope. Mitchell simply is listing 'users' with no way to account for extent. Sorry, but BigMac, in my eyes has yet to be proven a cheater. How many others will be in the same predicament?

Next, what about a guy who got talked into, had a few moments of weakness and used for a few months then woke up and of his own accord decided to get off the juice? Should he be put in the same light as a guy who juiced and juiced and never looked back? Again, not in my eyes. And will the report make that distinction? Again, per Mitchell, it won't.

Finally, what will the report do to stop the use of roids in the big leagues? Nothing I can see. Baseball really, REALLY needs to move forward. I'm not saying known and proven users of the past should get off scott-free. Once proven they should be punished accordingly. But all this report does is keep the focus on what happened years ago. It keeps the sportswriters and public from moving forward. By moving forward I mean focusing on cleaning up the game, keeping the game clean, restoring the games meaning in American culture and makig the game once again enjoyable because of its love of numbers.

Those things should be Selig's priority and the priority of anybody who makes 1 red cent off of baseball.

biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:26

Tejada.

Mariano Rivera.

Luis Gonzalez 7 years ago. He probably quit in time not to get nabbed.

barilko6
ID: 491137128
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:38

SI.com has confirmed that Miguel Tejada, Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte are named in the Mitchell Report.

SI.com also says Brian Roberts is there, as are former Yankees Mike Stanton, Jason Grimsley and Chuck Knoblauch. Apparently, steroids don't help you throw to first base. Dec. 13 - 1:15 pm et

walk
ID: 7952415
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:56

LOL regarding Knoblauchhead. He was too buffed to throw well, I guess. Interesting. I have a curiosity about the names, but also a BFD about it all, too. I think it was/is very rampant, and all a big wash for me.

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:57

LoDuca, Vina, Segui, Rondell White, Neagle...

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 13:58

Tejada

Razor
ID: 281191313
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:09

Lo Duca! Wow. That one really surprises me. He seemed like one of the good guys.

Guru
ID: 341161313
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:11

yea this is absolutely ridiculous some of the names on this report. Im so hungry now and want spaghetti. Ortiz and Manny are on the predominant measures of the report WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW

GuruUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
ID: 341161313
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:12

the kevin mitchel report from the twins movie hahaahaaahahahaha

GuruUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
ID: 341161313
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:13

the kevin mitchel report from the twins movie hahaahaaahahahaha

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:36

Some other names...Grimsley, Hairston, Herges, Glenallen Hill, Bigbie, Piatt, Mo Vaughn,Zaun, Kevin Brown, Eric Gagne

Many other names. Some are not as prominant...Still going through them...

I knew Eric Gagne was on Roids. No other way to explain his emergence from scrub to stud adn gaining all that muscle over one winter.

barilko6
ID: 491137128
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:39

wow...I am reading the report now, and it would make an excellent book. So far my favorite quote is the Dodgers scouting staff referring to Bobby Estalella as a poster boy for the chemicals while going through a physical.

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:41

I skimmed through through the names in the report and, besides those already mentioned, they include: Greg Zaun, Glenallen Hill, Mo Vaughn, Todd Hundley, Todd Pratt, Ron Villone, Jerry Hairston, Kevin Young, Kevin Brown, Matt Herges, Matt Franco, Rondell White, Nook Logan, John Rocker, Scott Schoeneweis, Matt Williams and Lenny Dykstra. Alot of less prominent players are named too.

There's reports of players such as Varitek, Pujols, and Kerry Wood (to name a few) being mentioned, but their names are not in the actual report.

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:44

The Andy Pettitte case doesn't document chronic use, just "two to four" injections of HGH over a ten day span while he was rehabbing an injury in the first half of 2002. Still very disappointing.

I don't see Varitek or Damon in the report.

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:53

More names...

Riggs, ankiel, david bell, paul byrd, canseco, gibbons, glaus, j guillen, hairston, holmes, matthews, jr., john rocker, schoenweis, valdez, matt williams, woodard, villone, donnels, manzanillo, hundley, laker, jack cust, brian roberts, knoblauch, clemens, pettitte, david justice, fp santangelo, ryan franklin, todd williams, phil hiatt, todd pratt, kevin young, mike lansing, mckay, kent mercker, jason christiansen, mike stanton, stephen randolph, miadich, gary bennett, jr., parque, brendan donnelly, chad allen, jeff williams, howie clark, nook logan...

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:57

There are more, but it's a long report.

You can read it yourself here.

Also stated that many players who had tested positive in the past were tipped off before their next "random" test was coming up and when.

walk
ID: 7952415
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 14:58

Celerino Sanchez, Billy Crystal, Harry Carey, Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis, Sarah Connor/John Connor, Donald Rumsfeld, Hillary Clinton, every ballboy and batboy over the last 20 years, the NYY groundscrew that has to dance the "YMCA" in the fifth inning of every home game, Derek Jeter's parents, MITH, and Phil Rizutto (nooooo!).

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 15:01

I just knew that me and Scooter should never have trusted that guy...

Rendle
Donor
ID: 014815714
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 15:01

John Connor had to be after T2. Maybe it has something to do with the show.

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 15:02

No wonder Nook Logan was hitting all those HR's!

walk
ID: 7952415
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 15:08

I know, who the fcuk is Nook Logan?! Sounds like one of the characters in the Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles Wii game I am playing. Too much! Nook baby, the jig's up! You're outted. Join MITH in the gallows. It's a cold, damp and dark place.

I wonder how much time ESPN News is going to devote to this. Speaking of which, I am really getting tired of ESPN and their now talk-TV/radio programming. Just like the way back MTV stopped doing music videos, I'm at the gym, EARLY (like 5:30am when I got on a workday; just a couple times a week, but that's the time that works for me...), anyway, I listen to my hard rock and watch ESPN Sportcenter while on the cardio bike looking for highlights to pass the pedaling time. There's like NO highlights anymore...just rambling. I guess there are more highlights on ESPN News, but still, when sportcenter is on while I'm at the gym, I expect freakin highlights. I can imagine like 293845 hours of point-counterpoint about whether these guys' records should be asterisked, expunged, etc.

Tree
ID: 3533298
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 15:45

Rumor is the Rocket will be one of the prominent names. What does this do to his legacy?

based on what you said in the Bonds thread (quoted below), Clemens' accomplishments are a lie and he is tarnished forever.

I care about him breaking the record...I hate the fact that he is breaking the record for no other reason than it is a false record because he did it with chemical enhancements. IMO his record will always be tainted and not a true record. He would have never broke this record without the use of steroids.

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:08

On all of the ESPN outlets combined walk? I'll take the over.

I wonder if Brady Anderson will make the list. He seems like one of the original poster boys, out of know where and hit 40+ HR and then disappears off the map. Nothing fishy there.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:13

Tree...yes that is pretty accurate of my feelings regarding Rocket.

I would guess Clemens became a prominent user about the time he joined Toronto in 1997...162 wins and 4 Cy Youngs later...I discount everything that happened after 1997...I kind of even question whether he is hall of fame worthy. If he is like a typical pitcher and fades out

Khahan...you are still not sure McGwire used PEDs (not andro)?...evidence against Mac: canseco, congress performance, his body then and now, mitchell report, etc...etc... I would happily give 50 to 1 odds that he used steroids and I would not even worry about the bet. My bet is he never makes the hall.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:17

Here are the initially leaked names from WNBC...they say these were the names that were included in the first draft report of the list. WNBC say they have two solid scources and are sticking by their story. Supposedly some names were removed because they did not have solid enough of evidence and were removed but none of these names surprise me...
Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Aaron Boone
Rafael Bettancourt
Bret Boone
Milton Bradley
David Bell
Dante Bichette
Albert Belle
Paul Byrd
Wil Cordero
Ken Caminiti
Mike Cameron
Ramon Castro
Jose Canseco
Ozzie Canseco
Roger Clemens
Paxton Crawford
Wilson Delgado
Lenny Dykstra
Johnny Damon
Carl Everett
Kyle Farnsworth
Ryan Franklin
Eric Gagne
Rich Garces
Nomar Garciaparra
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Troy Glaus
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jay Gibbons
Juan Gonzalez
Clay Hensley
Jerry Hairston
Felix Heredia, Jr.
Darren Holmes
Wally Joyner
Darryl Kile
Matt Lawton
Raul Mondesi
Mark McGwire
Guillermo Mota
Robert Machado
Damian Moss
Abraham Nunez
Trot Nixon
Jose Offerman
Andy Pettitte
Mark Prior
Neifi Perez
Rafael Palmiero
Albert Pujols
Brian Roberts
Juan Rincon
John Rocker
Pudge Rodriguez
Sammy Sosa
Scott Schoenweiis
David Segui
Alex Sanchez
Gary Sheffield
Miguel Tejada
Julian Tavarez
Fernando Tatis
Maurice Vaughn
Jason Varitek
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Kerry Wood

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:18

I could see that -- Boston let him go to Toronto, everything Sox management saw in him said he was done. Washed up.
Then all of a sudden he's amazing again.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:23

Only players that they had cancelled checks or credit card statements were included in the official list...other players were removed as "smoke present" but no fire.

Kyle
Donor
ID: 052753312
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:29

Re 2: barilko,
Now that Pujols is on the list do you think that baseball is hurt more then it would have been if he hadn't been on the list? I suspected something of Pujols, but I had no evidence of anything since he seemed to come out of nowhere. But that's what gave me the suspicion of some PED use.

walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:30

Kyle Farnsworth. Man, I hate that underachieving wild pitcher. A good argument for how enhanced strength and stamina does not necessarily mean skill. However, in general, the stuff likely enhances performance and injury recovery, I won't argue with that. I would expect that more used than did not use though...so this naming thing is just ludicrous. It's based on a just a few informants, too...can you imagine if they got to more dealers?

Perm Dude
ID: 4411431312
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 16:42

It all depends upon the drugs being used. There are, of course, lots and lots of drugs listed as PEDs which are of legitimate medical use, and there is no indication on the report as to duration, use, etc. In fact, the report is just about completely lacking anything from the players side.

In my opinion, even the title is suspect. There is no proof that each and every steroid use, for example, was "illegal" and the way the title is phrased makes it sound like "illegal" can apply to the PEDs as well--a ludicrous and baseless assertion for some of these.

Mitchell is very careful to cite his sources in the report, and some of the evidence looks pretty damning. But the lack of player responses in the report and our inability to weigh the truthfulness of the various interviewees makes it likely this report is the first and not the last word for many of these players.

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:01

I thought that I heard that the majority of players, the exception being Giambi, refused to talk to Mitchell.

Perm Dude
ID: 4411431312
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:24

That might very well be true.

Toral
ID: 575542418
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:28

Thoughts:

1. The winner today is -- Barry Bonds. The pressure is off him, basically for good. he will make the HoF based on pre-steroid performance.

2. Clemens' fate will be interesting. WGR Buffalo radio jocks saying that they would now not vote for him to HOF. Not sure how widespread that sentiment is.

3. Secondary winner today -- Greg Maddux. At one time he was sonsidered about even with Clemens for pitcher of his generation. Then he fell well behind Clemens. And now? Tertiary winner -- Frank Thomas,, who might go down in history as the real star of his generation who faded in comparison to others only because he refused to drug up.

4. Big shock to/loss for MLB is naming of Pujols. There have been so many stories about how inspiring it was that a guy like Pujols could become a great hitter, without the use of pharmaceutical helps, etc.

5. I will be interested in what people more savvy than myself now estimate as the percentage of players who have been using. Remember, this was a report based on a *very* limited number of sources, and naming only those who could be demonstrably linked. If there were a clubhouse source in every team, who knows how long the list would be?

Toral

StLCards
Dude
ID: 31010716
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:39

Pujols is not named in the report.

Toral
ID: 575542418
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:41

Whoops! Sorry. I was going by the rumour lists.

Then one good thing for MLB is that Pujols was not named.

He was only in the rumours....So the questions go on.

Toral

Razor
ID: 281191313
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:42

Paxton Crawford! No!

Of the list, there are a few Dodgers that I can comment on. I am very surprised Lo Duca was there. Not sure if he was juicing when he was in LA or not, but he always struck me as a guy who respected the game enough not to cheat. I guess not. It was pretty obvious that Brown was juicing at some point in 2003 after he got hurt when he came back looking like Hulk Hogan. I am not sure if he was cheating earlier in his career when he was much svelter. Gagne should be no surprise to anyone.

I count 6 former MVP's and Cy Young winners. That doesn't count Sosa and Caminiti.

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:49

From the report:

According to the notes of an internal discussion among Los Angeles Dodgers
officials in October 2003 that were referred to above, it was reportedly said of Lo Duca during
the meetings:
Steroids aren’t being used anymore on him. Big part of this.
Might have some value to trade . . . Florida might have interest.
. . . Got off the steroids . . . Took away a lot of hard line drives.
. . . Can get comparable value back would consider trading. . . . If
you do trade him, will get back on the stuff and try to show you he
can have a good year. That’s his makeup. Comes to play. Last
year of contract, playing for 05.419
On June 26, 2004, Lo Duca wrote a check to Radomski for $3,200. On July 30,
2004, the Dodgers traded Lo Duca, Guillermo Mota, and Juan Encarnacion to the Marlins.420 On
August 7, 2004, Lo Duca issued another check to Radomski for $3,200. In January 2005,
Lo Duca signed a three-year contract with the Marlins.

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:52

This whole thing is utterly preposterous. We still do not have anything other than a list of names. We know the use was widespread. But what were the affects overall? How many careers were ended prematurely because of ligament/tendon damage?

Would Bagwell still be playing if it HADN'T been for steroids? Maybe he would not have had the shoulder problems if his tendons were stretched to the point of tearing from being so much weaker than bulked up muscles. Or maybe they had nothing to do with his injuries at all. Or maybe he was legitimately on a legal form of steroids as part of his rehab from shoulder injuries. or maybe aliens kidnapped him when he was a minor leaguer and replaced him with a super-enhanced martian or maybe his strength gave him extra bat speed and he occassionally had a bit of extra speed in his swing and ended up swining too early and striking out when he would have gotten a hit on a normal swing or maybe some of his pop outs had a little extra pop to them and turned into home runs.

We still don't know. Or maybe for every pitcher he faced that he had a 'competitive edge' over due to steroids he faced 2 pitchers who had better roids and a better program than him and he was over matched by them. We still don't know and we never will. This whole report is a joke, though I applaud his attempts to offer ways to move forward.

This whole mind set of 'tarnished this' and 'fallen hero' that is just as preposterous. Again, we still don't know what affect steroids had on the players statistically. And lets face it, when we are talking about great players we are talking about statistics.

If you want to convince me that any of Clemens or Bonds accomplishments are tarnished then do the following:

1. Get his career stats
2. Determine, scientifically, that steroids had a meaningful and positive affect on those stats
3. Show me by using a legitimate scientific method what their stats would have been if NOBODY had used steroids.
4. Show me how that player then measures up to the rest of his era if NOBODY had used steroids.

If you do this and final results shows a career that is anything less than stellar, then they are fallen heroes.

Do this and if you show me that Bonds would have ended his career with less than 756 HR then the title and achievement is tarnished.

Until then, all of this is surmising and opinion because we just don't know. And you are welcome to your opinion. It may even turn out to be true eventually, but not today.

I'm already sick of the 'holier than thou' contingent talking down players who have brought all of us so much enjoyment and so many moments and memories that we have all (including the holier than thou's) benefited from.

*down off soapbox* :)

And Chicago, yes, I believe in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. All McGwire is 'guilty' of, so far as we know, is using Andro before it was banned by baseball. And I can say that knowing I'm not a huge Big Mac fan. In fact, I argued on these boards 2-3 years ago that he was a 1-dimensional player who was completely awesome at hitting home runs but does not belong in the HoF.

By the way, he retired due to knee problems. Is it possible that his knee problems were the result of his use of PEDs? Without, perhaps he'd have played another few years and, in the end, had comprable career stats.

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 18:22

Toral
Big shock to/loss for MLB is naming of Pujols.

Where do you see Pujols' name in the report? I don't.

Khahan
And Chicago, yes, I believe in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

In this country, Khahan, innocent until proven guilty only works in a court of law. If you live by such a personal credo than that is your choice but the court of public opinion and the standards of the commissioner's office will be less discerning than that if they choose.

All McGwire is 'guilty' of, so far as we know...

It really depends on your standard for guilt, doesn't it? You can choose to believe Canseco or not but as far as I'm concerned he is a highly likely candidate.

tastethewaste
ID: 911431318
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 19:56

Mitchell said that HGH use is widespread and players from all 30 teams have used HGH. So where are all these names?

Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 20:00

What kind of moron purchases illegal drugs with a CHECK? simply unbelievable.

I may be the only fan of steroids here. I don't think it was cheating until they changed the rules. As a fan, I want players to who choose to do so to take steroids responsibly. I am not in the slightest bit surprised to hear of the numbers of players suspected. As someone else mentioned, if there were club house rats in each MLB city, the list would be around 400 players.

Did anyone find the list of reasons why steroids should be illegal? How about the list of health complications linked to this steroid usage? Didn't think so.

Perm Dude
ID: 4411431312
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 20:08

You forgot "without a prescription" Zen.

Tree
ID: 3311221317
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 20:10

I may be the only fan of steroids here. I don't think it was cheating until they changed the rules. As a fan, I want players to who choose to do so to take steroids responsibly.

while not a fan, i'm just not convinced that responsible adults shouldn't have the option.

sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 20:21

re 58:

Ever heard of Lyle Alzado?

barilko6
ID: 4711271319
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 20:27

Kyle, re:45 Pujols isn't on the list.

I agree, its so hard to establish who else SHOULD be on this list. I am willing to say that they only caught a small percentage of users.

I was surprised to see how big Larry Bigbie's role in this was.

Toral
ID: 575542418
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 20:32

I was surprised to see how big Larry Bigbie's role in this was.

I was in a couple fantasy leagues one year when Bigbie was passed from team to team all year, being picked up by one team and held for a few days, then released, then picked up by another team, etc.

Now we know why :)

Toral

Great One
ID: 201155199
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 20:32

I've read several places and heard on the radio that the list from earlier was leaked from the investigation team - but is referred to as the "Smoke List"... (where there is smoke, there is...).

Those were people they had leads or information on - but not concrete enough evidence (i.e personal checks, credit cards, phone records, emails) that they could formally be included in the official report.

tastethewaste
ID: 911431318
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 21:06

What kind of moron purchases illegal drugs with a CHECK?

Let me just write in memo section what this is for so I dont forget...illegal steroids/HGH... There that should make it official. Gee, I hope this doesnt come back to bite me in the butt

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 21:19

While there are plenty of very smart MLB players, there are also plenty of MLB that I would not call smart.

Was Andro available OTC when McGuire was found with it?

Doesn't major league baseball have a clause that tells the players not to do anything illegal? Last time I checked getting steroids for the purpose of gaining muscle mass was illegal in most places.

rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 21:22

Was Andro available OTC when McGuire was found with it?

Yes.

Kyle
Donor
ID: 052753312
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 21:28

barilko Re:62 Sorry I was going off ChicagoTRS's list and misread his opening line.

Seattle Zen Re: 58 You are forgetting that all of these drugs are illegal unless given a prescription. I am wondering about the doctors who MAY have given these players the prescription. I think they should be behind bars, but that's a different topic altogether.
And the health risks are very apparent.

Toral
ID: 575542418
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 21:31

ChicagoTRS
ID: 344311322
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 22:25

This is a good article on the state of the steroids investigations...most of the names from the Mitchell report came from two ongoing investigations...Balco and Albany DA's prosecution of a wide-ranging Internet pharmacy pipeline. There are a few other investigations ongoing that Mitchell had no access too.

More names will surface in wake of Mitchell Report

So while baseball would like this to be over I think more and more names will come out in further investigations.

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 22:58

A friend mentioned the proportional disparity of Latin American players named in the report. Presumably many of them probably get their stuff from foreign contacts which are likely much harder to track down.

Most of the accounts in the report came from only a handful of sources.

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 23:20

The accusations/insinuations against McGwire have nothing to do with his open use of Andro (which he acknowledged -- the issue started after a reporter saw it in his open locker) but with his subsequent refusal to answer the question whether he used (other) steroids.

Toral

Actually, they have everything to do with his use of Andro. The finger-pointing and accusations of cheating started the day the andro was seen, long before his testimony. The testimony just solidified, in some people's mind, his guilt.

In this country, Khahan, innocent until proven guilty only works in a court of law. If you live by such a personal credo than that is your choice but the court of public opinion and the standards of the commissioner's office will be less discerning than that if they choose.

I pretty clearly stated that its opinion and even conceded it may one day be fact. But the 'court of public opinion,' is in my eyes a joke that is driven by the few people with the power of the pen. These writers need to stop telling me that the records and players are tarnished and start admitting its their feeling, not fact. I'm sorry, but when most every article on the subject is written from the perspective of, "Im right, these guys are bums and thats a fact," its gets rather annoying. I have nothing against anybody who feels taken in or let down by what the players did. Just stop spouting gospel. Let the commissioner decide and deal with the players as he sees fit. And this rant is directed more at sports writers and columnists than anybody here.

For the record, I do think those who are caught using illegal and banned substances should be punished. Their punishments should be made legal. But fans and writers harping on this issue are not helping the sport, they are only hurting it.

Oh and finally, the players union needs to get its collective head out of its collect ass and cooperate with the commissioners office in this. Not file a grievance over every punishment dealt out, but support suspensions and fines and *gasp* even voiding of contracts. If the players union would only step up and do that, I think public opinion of where the sport is going would be strengthened beyond belief.

Toral
ID: 575542418
Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 23:54

Khahan 72 Actually, they have everything to do with his use of Andro. The finger-pointing and accusations of cheating started the day the andro was seen, long before his testimony. The testimony just solidified, in some people's mind, his guilt.

I don't understand your point. McGwire admitted his andro use, said it was legal, asked if it unhealthy why anyone didn't tell him, and was not punished by MLB. He later said he voluntarily stopped using andro, to be a better example to the young. He was completely free and clear, in the eyes of MLB and public opinion.

He had developed a reputation as a perfectly straight-up, perhaps innocent naif guy, and that incident immunized him from general suspicions of steroid use. That's why it was such a huge shock when he refused to answer questions about use of other steroids.

Toral

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 08:40

post 72: Their punishments should be made legal. Legal should be be public.

Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 10:25

Wally Joyner? Mr. BYU, good Mormon Wally World?
No alchohol or coffee, but roids?

Say it ain't so, Wally.

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 10:51

FoxSports summary on the report

Clemens & Giambi pre/post steroid stats... also - a Steroid All-Star Team! lol... a good read.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 11:07

Some info I learned today...one of the players that did talk to Mitchell...Frank Thomas...he has been an outspoken critic for many years (could just be a good front?)...if big Frank did not use roids...he got hurt as much as any player...figure he would have definitely won the MVP over Giambi in 2000 and an argument could be made for 1996 when you look at the who's who of steroid abuser that finished above him that year.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 11:17

Going forward...

The gorup I have the biggest problem with at this point is the players union. Fehr saying "respect the current collective bargaining agreement" is ridiculous. Seems like Fehr still wants the players to have their candy?

What do the players have to lose by opening themselves up to stricter testing. If I was a clean player I would welcome more testing and even blood testing. If I am clean it is in my best interest to insure the rest of the league is clean so I can compete on an even playing field. I would want the union to protect me not from drug tests but from dirty players who are out to take my job by having an unfair advantage.

I was happy to hear Selig say he wanted to adopt all of Mitchells recommendations because by saying that he was basically hanging the players union out to dry. I suspect if MLB does not continue to make drastic changes they are inviting the government to get involved even further.

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 11:27

Agree 100% Chicago. The players union has already made the worst move, PR-wise, they could make. They've announced they will file a greivance on behalf of any players disciplined.

Talk about a 1-track mind. Donald Fehr just never seems to get the bigger picture. He is only making the players union look worse and worse. He is only dragging out bad blood about this issue with the fans. And, surprisingly, like you pointed out, The Commish is looking better now than when this all started.

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 11:46

This is par for the course. The PA has thrown up roadblocks to an effective anti-PED program at every step of the way.

The Bandwagon
Sustainer
ID: 479521116
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 11:55

Why has the NBA slipped through the cracks on the steriod issue? I've always thought Ben Wallace, Derek Fisher, and even Lebron were juicing among others.

I remember seeing Lebron play in high school and he looked like a 32 year old, filled out football player playing with scrawny boys. There are freakish type players that come around from time to time, but in the steriod generation, I'd bet my savings Lebron uses.

My point is, baseball/track&field are getting slammed on the steriods issue, lets crack down on the other sports as well.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 12:20

BandW...you are correct the NBA policy seems kind of weak.
NBA Drug Policy

D. Testing of Veteran Players
Veteran players can be tested once during training camp, or, if a player reports during the season or with less than 15 days remaining in training camp, once during the first 15 days after he reports to his team. All such tests are at the discretion of the NBA and without prior notice to the player

Does not look like there is any in season random testing policy in place. I am not sure how they have escaped criticism...no doubt players are using.

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 12:27

And Merriman gets suspended and then elected to the Pro Bowl!

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 13:48

We had our company christmas lunch today and I was talking to someone who used to be a ref in the Cleveland area. He said that when LeBron was a freshman he was 6'6" and weight 175lbs, but started filling out his sophmore year. Shawn Kemp looked similar to LeBron, musculature, when he was in high school and I doubt that Shawn was using PEDs back then.

There are plenty of high schoo kids who use PEDs, but it is also a bit less shocking when a 15 to 17 year-old kid puts on muscle mass as part of his maturation, then when a mid 30's athlete suddenly does. Just my $.02.

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 15:12

Agreed Frick. Look how scrawny Shaq was at LSU.

Perm Dude
ID: 2211501412
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 15:15

Lebron is very young--he very well could be growing a bit still. He certainly was growing in his first few years in the NBA.

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 15:30

I'm not that I would ever call Shaq scrawny, it's not like he went from a Manute Bol physique to what he is today.

Electroman
ID: 73332719
Fri, Dec 14, 2007, 17:30

HOF voters don't give Clemens vote of confidence

Razor
ID: 221145821
Sat, Dec 15, 2007, 16:46

Pretty amazing how impactful steroids have been. Of the 8 players who have passed 500 HR's in the last 10 years, 4 are suspected of steroid abuse, including 3 of the 4 highest totals. Makes you want to rethink that whole notion that "600 is the new 500 HR mark." It is just as difficult for players to get to 500 homers as it has ever been...provided they are legit.

The top 6 single season HR totals are held by suspected steroid users.

The single season HR mark for a catcher was once held by a steroid user (Hundley) and likely broken by a steroid user (Javier Lopez).

The all-time saves streak is a fraud.

From 1997 to 2004, there were 32 MVP's and Cy Youngs given out. 15 of those were won by players players suspected of steroids (Bonds - 4, Clemens - 4, Gagne, Giambi, Tejada, Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Sosa and Caminiti).

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 02:34

To me, all these people who were named and are coming out and admitting their usage only gives more weight to the credibility of the people who were pointing fingers.

clv@folks'
ID: 1711132312
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 05:31

To me, all these people who were named and are coming out and admitting their usage only gives more weight to the credibility of the people who were pointing fingers.

My sentiments exactly Ref. And probably the most damning piece of evidence for Clemens comes yesterday. Maybe he should have just kept his big mouth shut and played on everybody's sympathies (from RotoWorld)...

Andy Pettitte admitted Saturday to using HGH on two occasions back in 2002.

"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days." Pettitte is admitting that former trainer Brian McNamee's statements in the Mitchell Report were accurate, even though he must know he's burying good friend Roger Clemens in the process. If McNamee was telling the truth about Pettitte's usage, then why should anyone believe he's lying about personally injecting Clemens with steroids?
Source: The Associated Press
Related: Roger Clemens

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 08:36

To me, this best wraps up the attitude people should have about steroids towards the Hall of Fame:

"Yes on Roger Clemens. God forbid we mix the guys rubbing cream on their body with the racists, wife beaters, bat-corkers, adulterers and murder suspects that currently reside in a collection of dust and baseballs that is the Baseball Hall of Fame. It's a freakin' museum, and the last 20 years is a part of that history that was allowed to happen, no matter how badly people want to deny it.''
-- Joe Cowley, Chicago Sun-Times

Perm Dude
ID: 81139157
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 09:40

Oh, I don't think I can agree with that. Players who violate rules knowing that the penalty might include HoF ineligibility shouldn't be rewarded for doing so.

Are there bad people in the Hall? Sure. But that's a red herring. The question is whether these particular set of new people deserve to be in the Hall. And that answer, if guilty of what they are accused of, is no.

If the last 20 years are represented only by those few players who didn't juice than so be it. Later generations of baseball fans will recognize it for what it is: Major League Baseball enforcing its own rules.

clv
Sustainer
ID: 5911351713
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 10:59

Are there bad people in the Hall? Sure. But that's a red herring. The question is whether these particular set of new people deserve to be in the Hall. And that answer, if guilty of what they are accused of, is no.

If the last 20 years are represented only by those few players who didn't juice than so be it. Later generations of baseball fans will recognize it for what it is: Major League Baseball enforcing its own rules.

Exactly PD. Seperating "good guy" cheaters from "bad guy" cheaters simply doesn't cut it. While I agree with the quote that Khahan posted about it being "a freakin' museum", that's the problem. IF that's all it is and you vote "good guy" cheaters like Clemens and Pettitte in because they were well-liked, you'd better be prepared to vote Shoeless Joe in since he was the "good guy" gambler. If, on the other hand, you agree with Cowley's stance about allowing them all in because they were a part of history, you'd also better be prepared to let Jackson AND Rose in, because while not only were they a big part of the history of the game as well, they also didn't use anything illegal (hide behind the fact that MLB hadn't officially banned the substances during part of the period if you like - they were still illegal in other sports and most couldn't be obtained by simply going to CVS, Eckerd's, or Wallgreen's) to enhance their performance.

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 11:10

CLV, I'm of the opinion that Rose's accomplishments belong in the HoF. It is a museum to commemorate the history of baseball.

With regards to steroids and inflated numbers, for every Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, there are 10 Marvin Benards and Todd Hundleys. Guys who's careers were flash-in-the-pan or no appreciable stardome.

Then there's the guys like Mo Vaughn and Mark McGwire, who it can be reasonable argued actually had their careers cut short by steroids and PED.

Yes, punish all these active players who used illegal performance enhancers. Make the punishments public. Let teams void contracts. Let them be suspended. Make them test once a week.

But to reject their names and stats from the hall and history of baseball is absurd. They excelled in the steroid era. That stigma will always be with them and future generations may look at their accomplishments as something less than great. But their accomplishments should be there to be seen in the context of baseball. Because they excelled in a raised, but fairly even playing field if believe the likes of Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco.

And then the future generations of fans will be able to look at Clemens' numbers and Maddux's numbers and be just that much more impressed by what Maddux has accomplished.

They'll look at Barry Bonds and see gaudy HR totals but always wonder. But you can still only measure a players relative value against his current field of competitors.

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 11:30

If they are bad guys or good guys, people can use their votes subjectively for that. However, when you're talking about PEDs, then you can't subjectively figure out their numbers. What is the magic number barrier to be included? 3000 hits? 500 HRs? 300 Wins? It really hurts other players in the past and especially in the future who have bonafide numbers.

Shoeless Joe Jackson never actually threw a game. Pete Rose supposedly didn't bet on baseball while he was playing. Their actions have no bearing on their numbers. You had players numbers hurt or longevity issues because some guys had to go off to war. You had minorities not even allowed to play the game. Now there are players whose numbers aer artificially superenhanced (or hurt for those non-PED users who had to face these PED users).

I shake my head as some of these guys scream you can't touch me because baseball hadn't banned steroids and later HGH at that point. These are (mostly) controlled drugs that weren't obtained or used legally.

Great One
ID: 201155199
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 11:49

speaking of those pointing fingers....

Jose Canseco STILL maintains A-Rod should have been on the list. He was right about everyone else in his last book, so sadly - to me - Canseco actually has some credibility. Even though he's a jackass.

Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 12:11

Anyone who thinks the HOF isn't cheapened without the all-time hits leader or the all-time home run hitter or a 6 time Cy Young award winner(spanning 3 decades) needs to explain to me why there's even a need for a HOF.

Sure, a guy like Gagne made headlines for a couple years as a monster closer, which can be discarded to the garbage annals of baseball history, but Rose, Bonds and Clemens represent a body of work that can't be denied by a moral code that barely existed before media scrutiny became as intense as it's been for the past few decades.

Use an asterick, a separate wing for cheaters, or some method to identify those who have violated the rules, but don't cheapen the HOF by denying 3 of baseball's greatest contributors from consideration.

Razor
ID: 221145821
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 12:13

Yes, that is troubling to me. Even though we know Canseco is really just out for himself, he was right on so many of the players before. He was mocked for including Clemens in his list and look how that turned out. The thing that makes me think A-Rod is clean is that he has been a phenom for the last 15 years even when he was playing in high school. He has never really had any unexpected jumps in production. I mean, the guy hit .358 as a skinny 20 year old. You can't rule anyone out these days, though.

What's funny about all this is that after you strip out all the steroid users, two guys that come out looking even better than before are Maddux and Griffey. As far as I am concerned, Griffey has hit more HR's legitmately than any player since Willie Mays 35 years ago and Maddux has won more games than anyone since Warren Spahn 40 years ago . And both are still going. Kudos to two of the game's all-time greats; two guys that have been overshadowed by the misdeeds of others.

100

Perm Dude
ID: 81139157
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 12:28

Do we really need another thread about Pete Rose? He continually broke a rule he knew would cause him to be kept out of the HoF. End of story.

101

Tree, in LA
ID: 2311401512
Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 12:52

Do we really need another thread about Pete Rose? He continually broke a rule he knew would cause him to be kept out of the HoF. End of story.

well, it does have a relevance to the conversation...

102

blue hen
ID: 16322314
Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 13:05

Pujols is mad, and justifiably so if you ask me. I wouldn't be terribly upset if there were repercussions here.

103

Seward Norse
ID: 297412913
Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 13:40

I did it too, but just once

Brian Roberts

104

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 15023167
Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 14:04

Vina admits it, too.

It's interesting to me how many of the players named have fessed up, while some others seem to think that the evidence just isn't there.

Personally, I thought the evidence was stronger against Clemens than against Vina, Roberts, or even Pettitte.

105

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 15:09

The problem with the "fess ups" is they are fessing up for a reason. Notice they are all only admitting to HGH and all of the time frames are before language was added to specifically prohibit HGH. They are all fessing up to doing it around an injury.

It all seems too convenient...they are trying to minimize the damage.

For example Vina only admitted to HGH around one specific injury yet in the Mitchell report he is accused of anabolic steroid use and purchase.

I do not think you will see many players taking anyone to court for defamation etc...if they do that they may need to get on the stand and make some statements under oath and I have a feeling not many of them want to do that.

106

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 15:36

Did anyone catch the interview with Vina on one of the ESPN channels this morning. I'll admit in my daze I don't know which one. He was asked repeatedly about why he didn't speak to Mitchell and he kept dodging the question. Apparently despite the huge coverage of it and the access Mitchell had, Vina never knew that Mitchell wanted to talk to him. He didn't look very smooth and it appeared, that he was being very careful with his wording.

107

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 11:21

108

RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 12:08

"how do you think Ted Williams fought all those nazis"...man, that clip is killing me.

109

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 12:28

quote from my (level-headed) Yankee fan friend... "sadly, I know a lot of guys just like that!"

110

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 12:46

That clip is hilarious. Love it.

On a more serious side, I've mentioned this in another thread here and have twice asked Rob Neyer in his live chats and have asked in a few other forums. Every time its been completely ignored. So, how come this era of steroid use is being called out for illegal drugs when, during the 70's, you couldn't throw a ball in a dugout w/out hitting somebody who was popping greenies or somethig similar to get them through the grind of the long season? How is this any different?

And when people complain about tarnished records and fake stats, again, how is it different from illegal methods used in bygone eras?

111

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 12:49

or several members of the '86 Mets doing boatloads of coke...

113

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 13:11

Why single out the Mets? Yankees, Mets, Expos, LA, Min, SF Cle, Bal, Tam, Fla, Oak Chisox, Hou and others have all had players on their rosters who are known cokeheads.

Thats why I find this whole debate about what to do with player stats and records and HoF votes a complete joke.

As far as punishment and actions against players from MLB goes, I agree with Selig's recent proposal (holy sh!t, I can't believe I just said that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that players punishments will be handled on a case by case basis and extent of disciplinary action will be based on policies in place when the drug use occurred.

114

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 13:43

Khahan 110

Regarding the record books and awards, I agree with most of your points.

But the juiced ball era stats make a very strong case that steroids and HGH do impact a player's prowess (certainly hitters' prowess, anyway) far more than any variation of speed.

115

Tree
ID: 3533298
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 13:51

Why single out the Mets? Yankees, Mets, Expos, LA, Min, SF Cle, Bal, Tam, Fla, Oak Chisox, Hou and others have all had players on their rosters who are known cokeheads.

you left out the Royals, who had four players convicted of purchasing coke, and even served jail time and suspensions.

116

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 13:52

In a weird way, now that we have prominent pitchers on this list, to me it kind of evens out the advantage.

Although it does seem that the steroids help longevity for pitchers, as opposed to dominance. Whereas it seems to be the opposite for hitters.

Two schools of thought I guess.

117

Perm Dude
ID: 341124198
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 14:35

Khahan: Greenies and other uppers keep you alert and awake for short periods of time. They don't build muscle mass. That's the difference.

118

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 14:52

PD: Greenies and uppers boost your energy and alertness, giving players an unfair advantage over the course of a 162 game season and all of them are illegal and as such, banned by baseball.

Some PED's are not banned by baseball and not illegal.

Muscle mass does not help a hitter make contact.
Muscle mass does not directly help a pitcher get from the 6th inning to the 8th inning.

So, greenies compared to LEGAL/UNBANNED PED's of today, which is worse in your eyes and why?

Compared to illegal/banned PED's of today, which is worse and why?

In my eyes they are equal. If you are not going to reject stats and accomplishments of players from the 70's for greenies, then you cannot reject stats and players of the 2000's for PEDS.

119

Perm Dude
ID: 341124198
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 15:01

Well, one can't consume uppers over the course of a season, K. It is temporary (maybe a couple of weeks--no more).

You might have a point questioning those stats by those players, but without proof this is all just conjecture. And we cannot equate the two in any case: If players were using banned substances as outlined in the Mitchell report, their guilt isn't put aside (or mitgated) because someone else, at some other time, used some other drugs which might or might not have helped that player at that time.

120

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 15:04

PD, thats why I'm specifically referring to stats and HoF. My beef with the whole report is the reaction that players numbers are somehow tarnished or inaccurate due to the benefits of illegal drugs. And my point is: this ain't the first time. You either accept all stats or reject all stats. You can't pick and choose.

A players guilt is still there and any sanctions by MLB or the government are a separate issue. One which I whole-heartedly support.

121

Perm Dude
ID: 341124198
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 15:14

Well, we can pick and choose. When a player uses what he shouldn't, and we know it, he is rejected. What we can't do is say "Those guys in the 60's were all drunks, the 70s were cokeheads..." etc and toss out stats without any proof of anything.

Provable use of banned substances at any time, IMO, is cause for rejection of stats. But absent any proof we can't say we should reject someone.

122

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 15:46

I don't disagree with you that muscle mass doesn't effect the ability to make contact.

What it does do is turn a routine pop-up into a monster shot that clears the 2nd deck.

Khahan, can you tell me which PEDs are legal today. While the substances might not be banned, they are controlled. The manner in which players was not within the guidelines doctors are supposed to follow in prescribing them.

123

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 15:53

But there is proof that players in the 70's used greenies to grind out the late season. Tons of players have admitted it. So you are saying, those players should also be thrown out?
If you say yes, then fine. You are one of the few being consistent.

Recent article about 'greenies'

Mays, Schmidt and Stargell confirm amphetamine use

Pete Rose and Tony Gwynn mention amphetamine use on their ballclubs

Yeah, there is plenty of proof that amphetamines were prevalant in baseball and have had positive effect on player's stats and careers. Does this change anybody's mind bout how to view stats of today?

Heh, it appears we could conceivably break baseball down into 2 eras: The deadball era and the drug era. :)

124

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 15:58

This should be a fairly exhaustive list of MLB's banned substance list. *note: I cannot claim w/ 100% certainty that this is 100% complete*

Drugs of abuse
Cocaine
LSD
Marijuana
Opiates (e.g., heroin, codeine, morphine)
MDMA (“Ecstasy”)
GHB
Phencyclidine (“PCP”)
Ephedra

Steroids
Androstanediol
Androstanedione
Androstenediol
Androstenedione
Bolasterone
Boldenone
Calusterone
Clostebol
Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone
Desoxy-methyltestosterone
∆1-dihydrotestosterone
4-dihydrotestosterone
Drostanolone
Ethylestrenol
Fluoxymesterone
Formebolone
Furazabol
13a-ethyl-17a-hydroxygon-4-en-3-one
4-hydroxytestosterone
4-hydroxy-19-nortestosterone
Mestanolone
Mesterolone
Methandienone
Methandriol
Methenolone
Methyltestosterone
Mibolerone
17a-methyl-∆1-dihydrotestosterone
Nandrolone
Norandrostenediol
Norandrostenedione
Norbolethone
Norclostebol
Norethandrolone
Oxandrolone
Oxymesterone
Oxymetholone
Stanozolol
Stenbolone
Testolactone
Testosterone
Tetrahydrogestrinone
Trenbolone

Any salt, ester or ether of a drug or substance listed above; and
Human Growth Hormone

Prohibited Substances may be added to the list only by the unanimous vote of HPAC, provided that the addition by the federal government of a substance to Schedule I, II, or III will automatically result in that substance being added to the list.

125

Perm Dude
ID: 341124198
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 16:09

#123: Rose is a special case, of course, so I don't think we can speak to him. If the substances in question were banned by MLB at the time, I would definately say "toss 'em out."

That's been my stance on both Rose and Bonds. If we can prove they broke the rules at the time their actions were against the rules, them no HoF.

If proof can't be tied to a specific player, then they are fine, IMO. We can't be making these sweeping "steroid era" generalizations, IMO.

126

Frick
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 16:55

How far a ball travels is a matter of physics. The speed and mass of the bat, speed of the ball, and angle of contact being the major factors. Using PEDs gives players bigger and faster muscles would allow a batter to swing the a heavier bat faster, resulting in the ball travelling a longer distance. That being said, how much further hasn't been quantified.

What advantage does a greenie provide?

Could a player get the same result from enough caffeine?

127

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 17:41

Actually PEDs can help a batter make contact if we are to believe that HGH improves eyesight. Like basically everything regarding HGH nothing is proven...but if this to believed improved eyesight would certainly help with hand eye coordination.

128

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 20:01

Hitters with stonger hands and lower arms have more control of the bat through the strike zone. If a player uses illegal PEDs to make his hands and wrists stronger, then he probably improves his ability to make contact.

How much probably depends on the hitter. It surely helps him make contact when taking a pitch the other way. Not sure about when pulling the ball, maybe for some guys.

Stronger arms should also help a hitter check his swing, which indirectly helps improves his ability to make contact.

129

Razor
ID: 281191313
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 08:44

The benefit to hitters for steroid use is obvious and has already been articulated by Frick: bat speed. Better bat speed = better hitter, all else equal. It is totally and utterly laughable that anyone would try to discount the effect of steroids. Every player in the game lifts weights to improve their strength to either improve their bat speed or their velocity. And I am supposed to sit here and listen to one of these cheaters confidently say, "Steroids don't help you hit a baseball," when we all know that there is a benefit to increased strength and steroids increase strength? It's like eating a crap sandwich every time I hear it, especially when so many fans agree with them.

130

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 09:09

Just thinking about Gary Sheffield... remember all those laser shots he would pull up the line at Yankee Stadium?!

131

Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Dec 26, 2007, 12:53

Roger Clemens' lead attorney told The New York Times that his firm is launching its own investigation into allegations the seven-time Cy Young winner used steroids and human growth hormone.

Yeah, that's sure to get to the bottom of this. How likely is Clemens' own attorney going to say, "After looking at all the evidence, yup, Roger roided up repeatedly."?

There is one way to dispel the rumors, though it is far more likely to prove Mitchell was right: a lie-detector test. They are used in conjunction with blood and urine samples before natural bodybuilding competitions and if used properly, are more likely to catch cheaters than the samples. Roger can lie to the public, but he is human and the lie detector will expose him.

132

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Wed, Dec 26, 2007, 16:35

I think this is a bad tactic for Clemens...the complete denial route. It seems pretty likely he used...the Mitchell report has more evidence against him than any other player...witnesses...paper trails...his pitching buddy Pettitte admitting use.

If Clemens truly did not use he should sue for slander...problem is then he would likely be required to take the stand under oath...I doubt he really wants that. I think that is how we know someone is truly innocent when they pass a lie detector and are willing to go to court and say some things under oath...I think players will be less likely to do that when they see what happens to Bonds (likely jail time).

133

Perm Dude
ID: 5803649
Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 11:00

Clemens cops to lidocaine, B-12 only

134

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 11:09

I tend to believe Clemens in this. When he answers, he answers directly. He does not hide or dodge or try to wordsmith.

On the other side, you have McNamees legal team giving answers like this when asked if he injected Lidocaine or B-12:
"Emery wouldn't say whether McNamee did inject Clemens with lidocaine and B-12.

"That's much too specific. That evidence has yet to be developed," he said. "There is a ton of evidence that the Mitchell report failed to explore that will corroborate Brian, and so it would be foolhardy for Clemens or Hardin to allow Clemens to trash Brian."

Sorry it comes across as a yes or no question to me. Did you or did you not. The answer is either "I did" or "I did not."

135

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 11:27

Sorry. I don't believe Clemens whatsoever. Him and his "TEAM" have been working on what to say and how to say it. I'd imagine they got to see the questions before the 60 MINS taping as well as I read they are very good friends. This is an attempt to save his legacy and HOF votes. Marion Jones swore and promised too and that meant nothing. Bonds, Palmeiro...I just don't believe it and am frankly tired of hearing people deny it or saying it was HGH only and "one time" before HGH was banned.

136

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 11:50

Yeah I lean more toward the liklihood that he is just a very good liar. I do admit that he sounds very convincing but that's not enough.

137

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 16:31

"Wallace asked Clemens if McNamee ever injected him with drugs, to which Clemens replied, "Lidocaine and B-12. It's for my joints, and B-12, I still take today."

Clemens said the charges were "ridiculous" and insisted he never used banned substances. After he made those statements, Wallace, who is a longtime friend, said, "Swear?" Clemens responded, "I swear." -- 1.4.08, Boston Globe

I cracked up when Mike & the MadDog were making fun of the "do you Swear?" part of it
Chris Russo - "whats next?... a double dog dare? pinkie-swear? cross your heart and hope to die?

138

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 19:45

This could get interesting in front of the congressional committee.

From SI

Lawyer: Clemens got testosterone
Posted: Friday January 04, 2008 05:56AM ET

Brian McNamee's lawyer, Earl Ward, told the Daily News last night that his client never injected Roger Clemens with the vitamin B-12 or lidocaine, but that he did shoot him up with testosterone. "Brian has a master's degree in sports medicine," Ward said. "He knows the difference between testosterone and B-12 and lidocaine. What he injected into Roger Clemens was not lidocaine or B-12. It was testosterone." Lidocaine is a local anesthetic commonly used by dentists and in minor surgery.

139

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 22:32

Well Clemens has been called to testify in front of Congress. He better be careful now as purjury to Congress is major jail time if proven. At the time with Palmeiro they couldn't get enough evidence in time apparently.

140

Tim G
ID: 4473481
Sat, Jan 05, 2008, 03:27

Maybe he needed that lidocaine injection to numb his behind to
ease the pain of the b-12 injection, seems reasonable to me. He
should try novacaine injections all around his mouth so he couldn't
talk.

141

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Sat, Jan 05, 2008, 11:24

After all this and the 60 Minutes segment, this weekend, I expect Congress to have Clemens under a microscope.

142

holt
ID: 401157300
Sat, Jan 05, 2008, 19:48

so Clemens used roids. I could throw him on the pile of fallen heroes along with all the others. But all these denials and the team of lawyers... argh. That calls for me to throw him on a different, stinkier pile.

Hey, maybe he can get some tips from O.J. on how to uncover the truth while playing golf.

143

Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 10:58

I believe Clemens filed suit for two reasons. One: "under the advice of my attorneys I have chosen to not testify in front of Congress so as to not jeopardize the pending suit." Two: "under the advice of my attorneys I have chosen to not to submit to a lie detector test so as to not jeopardize the pending suit."

How very convenient.

144

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 11:05

ESPN's TJ Quinn said that Clemens will likely agree to testify to Congress to avoid a subpoena but said that the only reason he filed the lawsuit was so he wouldn't have to talk about anything related to steroids, etc. because of the pending suit.

145

rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 11:07

Zen, I assume in a civil trial there is no jeopardy of criminal sanctions for perjury, correct?

146

Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 11:17

Zen, I assume in a civil trial there is no jeopardy of criminal sanctions for perjury, correct?

That's not my understanding. You take an oath when you submit to depositions or take the stand. Lying under oath is perjury. Can't say that it happens often, it's not my area.

147

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 17:22

I have to admit, after seeing the 60 mins segment last night, I believe Clemens even less. Wallace didn't exactly give him the softballs in which I was expecting, but he didn't necessarily drill him on certain points either. I read that Wallace and Clemens are long time friends.

148

Perm Dude
ID: 1803267
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 17:26

I don't know that Clemens can sue anyone for defamation in response to someone giving information to law enforcement.

149

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 17:31

Well you can sue anyone for anything as long as you pay the filing fee. Doesn't mean it won't get tossed...which it will.

150

Perm Dude
ID: 1803267
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 17:34

Obviously I meant "successfully" ref!

151

rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 17:35

Since when is George Mitchell law enforcement? i missed the day he was sworn in.

152

Perm Dude
ID: 1803267
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 17:48

McNamee originally testified about this in the BALCO case. His later comments were made to federal authorities.

Clemens suit (pdf)

153

rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 18:03

I thought Clemens answered nothing straight.

"If I have these needles and these steroids and all these drugs, where did I get 'em?" he said. "Where is the person out there (who) gave 'em to me? Please, please come forward."

What point does that make? if I accuse Roger of shooting someone, can his defense be "show me where i bought the bullets"? I don't see how that statement clears him.

"If I would've known what this man, what Brian McNamee (had) said in this report, I would have been down there in a heartbeat to take care of it,"

Too bad. You followed your lawyer's advise. Common sense tells one that if George calls, it isn't good news. Why do you think you were called... to ask for your choc chip cookie recipe?

"If he's doing that to me, I should have a third ear coming out of my forehead. I should be pulling tractors with my teeth,"

No Roger. He said 16-21 times. not enough to grow ears or pull tractors. He didn't accuse you of juicing thousands of times. Again, his comment is dramtic but does nothing to refute the accusation.

When asked why Macnamee would lie (what incentive) when Andy Petite confirmed the story. Clemens (paraphrasing) said 'those are different cases, totally separate' Yes, roger they are. So what..... please give the interviewer an answer to the question rather than state an already known, irrelevant fact. I wish Wallace would have restated that question. Macnamee has no reason to pick a fight with Clemens as if he is lieing he could go to jail. if he tells the truth, he stays a free man. Gee.... who has more to gain/lose in the lie/truth war?

On a side note, do they still make you place your hand on a Bible when you testify? If so, what would happen if a Muslim, Atheist, or those of another faith refused to acknowledge the Bible?

154

Perm Dude
ID: 1803267
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 18:04

They can either swear in their own book of sacred writing, or somply swear to the truth.

155

Toral
ID: 575542418
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 18:16

1. One would note that Clemens is not suing any media outlets. They would have access to attorneys who could depose him at length.

2. Read the pleading that Clemens filed and pd linked to. It is not a pleading filed by a serious law firm on behalf of a plaintiff who worries that he is in a hard case. It looks to me like a pleading filed by someone who feels that he has the outcome of a case fixed.

3. It would not surprise me if, after McNamee is finally sentenced for all his activities, maybe even a few years later, he recants all his accusations. Clemens is retiring and can no longer be examined by Selig.

4. It's only Canadian TV, but Paul Godfrey, who is one of the savviest guys around, who brought the Blue Jays to Toronto and convinced Premier Bill Davis to build Skydome with public money, identifies Clemens' statements as clever spin.

Clemens gets away with long-term PED use and no-one can touch him.

My guess is that he won't get away with it; reporters will get him like Bonds. But I guess he didn't want to fold his hand. So he deided to call, and make like he's ready to go all-in.

Toral

156

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 19:04

I still think Clemens is lying but I don't see any strong points toward that in post 153. Clemens' problem, in the event that he is actually clean, is that there's nothing he can say or do to prove his innocence. I agree some of his comments are poor arguments (particulary the 'third ear', 'pull tractors' portion) but they don't in any way indict him.

I didn't see the interview so I don't know exactly what Clemens said on the matter, but I certainly can't say definitively that McNamee had no motivation to lie, either. We don't know how much pressure was put on him by Mitchel. We don't know that he wasn't coerced enough to come up with a big name that he was brough to the point of inventing a story.

157

Toral
ID: 575542418
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 19:23

MITH 156 Clemens' problem, in the event that he is actually clean, is that there's nothing he can say or do to prove his innocence.

True. But taking a lie detector test administered by an independent examiner would be a strong start.

I certainly can't say definitively that McNamee had no motivation to lie, either. We don't know how much pressure was put on him by Mitchel. We don't know that he wasn't coerced enough to come up with a big name that he was brough to the point of inventing a story.

Well we know that Sen. Mitchell had no power to put pressure on him. McNamee is not and has never been a player, umpire, coach, or manager in professional baseball so he has little to fear from any sanctions whatsoever from MLB (which commissioned Sen. Mitchell's investigations).

I have read that Mitchell did receive co-operation from the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. Do you believe that McNamee was coerced to squeal to avoid a larger sentence for himself, and made up the story about injecting Clemens? I would concede that is possible...but a little more substance to the idea would be helpful.

Toral

158

Razor
ID: 53032614
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 20:05

It is also, however, very possible that McNamee lying about something he told Mitchell in the investigation could result in a longer sentence. They told him as much before he started talking. McNamee had much more to lose by lying than by telling the truth.

159

filthy
ID: 186293016
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 21:20

canseco's next book will clear up everything;)

160

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 23:32

RFS, post 153.
Fine, I accuse you of doing crack and heroine and selling it to kids.

There. According to what most people posting in this thread state, you are now guilty because you have been accused.

Oh wait, I'm a drug pusher myself being interviewed by the government who is asking me to give up names of well known posters on rotoguru.com.

Oh, and while we're at it, please, DO defend yourself against the accusation. Just humor me and play along. See how well you can do defending yourself against allegations like that.

Yeah, now we know you are guilty because you are accused of something by somebody with credibility!

You can rationalize the above all you want. But its what Clemens is up against. Its exactly what everybody named in the Mitchell report is up against. And to me, its complete and total bullshit that these players are being treated this by based on that level of evidence.

Are people named in the Mitchell report guilty? Yes, I'm sure many of them are. Could there be a handful of players who are not? Why not? Why couldn't Radomski and McNamee be that big of a rat? They supplied illegal drugs, is lying out of the question? Or are they above that in your eyes?

Yes, I agree this tidal wave of, "I only did it once to help my team," is most likely a bunch of BS. That is almost as bad as the rest of this whole process has been.

161

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 23:35

Sorry, I just want to reiterate one point from above. I was just reading something on ESPN and really thought about:

The players and their reputations are being butchered by a man is an admitted drug pusher.

And people belive the drug pusher.

Amazing.

162

Perm Dude
ID: 1803267
Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 23:53

Mitchell seems to have. People put a lot of stock in George Mitchell.

Besides, where else will athletes get their illegal drugs but from a drug pusher?

163

ChicagoTRS
ID: 344311322
Tue, Jan 08, 2008, 00:18

The phone call seems staged...seems obvious both had lawyers present during the call. Neither said anything.

If it was a private call it would have sounded very differently.

I think Roger should stay away from the microphone. His act reminds me a lot of Marion Jones denials.

His denials seem sort of laughable to me...I hope he ends up facing the same fate as Bonds...up on perjury charges. Be a man admit it...

164

Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Tue, Jan 08, 2008, 00:50

Toral
Do you believe that McNamee was coerced to squeal to avoid a larger sentence for himself, and made up the story about injecting Clemens?

Not at all and I'm not arguing that this happened. Just that it's possible.

165

holt
ID: 401157300
Tue, Jan 08, 2008, 19:42

What in the world was up with that phone call? In no way, shape, or form did it make Clemens sound innocent to me.

"If I would've known what this man, what Brian McNamee"

What does that remind you of?

166

Myboyjack
ID: 56039812
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 10:36

Can someone tell me what proof there is regarding Clemens beyond this admitted liar and felon Brian McNamee?

Surely, there must be something else?

167

Karrosinthehall
ID: 281191313
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 10:41

There is no evidence, just years of whispers and a highly unusual career that corroborates McNamee's story.

Let's not forget than McNamee was proven right about Pettitte by Pettitte's own admission. And that McNamee was Clemens' personal trainer.

168

Perm Dude
ID: 39014118
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 10:50

Don't you have to sometimes use liars and felons to get at the truth in the course of your job, MBJ? I'm not saying you have to like it, but in trying to clarify possible bad acts it seems a little ingenuous to look at only those with clean hands. Isn't the nature of this crime, like many others, that everyone's hands are a little dirty?

169

Myboyjack
ID: 56039812
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 11:06

PD - I would never find probable cause to believe anything had happened based solely on what a desperate liar like Brian McNamee had to say. I ceetainly wouldn't slander someone else without anything tanglible to support his story.

The guys own law enforcement handlers are now admitting that he lied to them about another case.

170

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 12:09

To be honest, none of us truly know--just like Bonds--but there seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence. That is enough to convict in some cases. But here we also have at least one eye witness and I have to believe there are more--just finding them.

McNamee had absolutely nothing to gain by naming Clemens. He has everything to lose if he names him and lies. The Feds were in the room. As long as he doesn't lie, he is cooperating. Others McNamee named came out admitting at least some of his accusations to be true. Pettitte never came out and said Clemens never did it. Clemens taped his conversation trying to say McNamee never did it. Even there Clemens wasn't getting mad and calling him a liar. He was saying something not right because I didn't do all you said I did. McNamee said, "what do you want me to do?" Not very convincing. And even then Clemens only played 17 mins excerpt of the call. McNamee's lawyer said, play the whole thing AND play the tape of Clemens lawyers and investigators recorded interview before the Mitchell investigation was released--you know that one in which Clemens said never took place on 60 Mins? I swear I never knew anything about it until it came out? Well that's a lie.

I simply don't believe him. I would feel much better if he came out and admitted some mistakes than what he's doing. Surely they can't get him for federal steroid using/traffiking or whatever it's called at this point in time.

To compound that, Congress is NOT offering him immunity for his testimony. So he could plead the 5th because of self-incrimination. That would be better than lying and going to jail, a la McGwire, but would still be all but admitting his guilt. Palmeiro didn't go to jail though so who knows? Pettitte is worried enough to retain Sosa's lawyer.

There sure is a lot of smoke. But what it comes down to is our personal opinions based on what we've seen and heard.

171

Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 13:36

There sure is a lot of smoke

There is a proven liar's story + what, exactly?

People who believe that McNamee "has nothing to gain" by purporting to spill the beans on Clemens are extremely naive about how these high profile government witchhunts operate.

172

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 14:01

Thank you MBJ. I don't feel so alone anymore.
Listen, I'm by no means saying Clemens IS innocent. However, all we have a word vs word situation.
On one hand, we have a person who has shown hard work and dedicated himself to his craft for 20+ years and is fighting to save his reputation.

On the other hand we have an admitted drug pusher and liar who was being pressured by the government to give up names.

173

holt
ID: 360131020
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 20:41

did you listen to that phone call? the transcript is available on-line. I know he hasn't been tried by a jury of peers, but I can't think of any reason why I should feel in my own mind that he is innocent of using steroids. I mean if you had to lay $10k bucks on it, which side would you put your money on?

I'd feel a lot better about guys like Bonds and Clemens if they had just owned up to what they did, apologized, and tried to make amends. Instead, all we get is more public battles in which they try to save their reputations. Sorry, but if you're gonna cheat to get those records, then you're gonna have to deal with the legacy of being a cheating record-holder. The jig is up.

174

ChicagoTRS
ID: 344311322
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 22:55

I will gladly put 10K on Clemens being a cheater...

175

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jan 12, 2008, 10:07

Kent says he advocates blood tests for players

176

Khahan
ID: 561119313
Sat, Jan 12, 2008, 11:24

Holt: I'd feel a lot better about guys like Bonds and Clemens if they had just owned up to what they did, apologized, and tried to make amends. Instead, all we get is more public battles in which they try to save their reputations. Sorry, but if you're gonna cheat to get those records, then you're gonna have to deal with the legacy of being a cheating record-holder.

When this is all over and done with, if its proven that Clemens cheated I will agree with this sentiment 100%. But to me, nothing is proven yet. Right now, we have a guy who is proclaiming his innocence trying to save his rep. There is just not enough evidence out there to make me believe he IS a cheater. So (going on the assumption that he is not) why should he act like he cheated and admit it?

Its just too big of an 'if' right now in my mind.

177

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Jan 13, 2008, 00:51

Clemens' lawyer hedging Congress' deposition request
By T.J. Quinn
ESPN.com

After saying repeatedly that Roger Clemens will answer any questions Congress wants to ask him, a source familiar with the inquiry said Saturday night that attorney Rusty Hardin is hedging over the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee's request to depose Clemens under oath next week because it might interfere with his defamation lawsuit against personal trainer Brian McNamee.

The source said Hardin is also making "noises" about not turning over a taped conversation between McNamee and two investigators for Hardin's office recorded Dec. 12, the day before the Mitchell report was released...

178

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Jan 13, 2008, 12:02

McNamee's attorney say ex-trainer wants to testify before Congress
ESPN.com news services

Brian McNamee's attorney, Earl Ward, defended his client asking for immunity to testify before Congress and suggested that if Roger Clemens were to contradict McNamee's testimony, he would likely be indicted for lying under oath.

"If [Clemens' attorney Rusty Hardin] allows his client to go before Congress and testify under oath, I don't think we'll be talking about Roger Clemens being inducted [into the Hall of Fame], I think we'll be talking about Roger Clemens being indicted," Ward told ESPN's Bob Ley on "Outside The Lines" on Sunday morning.

Ward, who has drawn criticism from Hardin for asking for immunity, sounded as if he expected Congress to give McNamee immunity to testify at the Feb. 13 hearing.

"I'd be very surprised if he doesn't get immunity," Ward said. "It makes no sense whatsoever. Congress wants to hear from this man."...

179

Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 15:52

The names of R&B music star Mary J. Blige, along with rap artists 50 Cent, Timbaland and Wyclef Jean, and award-winning author and producer Tyler Perry, have emerged in an Albany-based investigation of steroids trafficking that has already rocked the professional sports world, according to confidential sources.

Information has surfaced recently showing those stars are among tens of thousands of people who may have used or received prescribed shipments of steroids and injectable human growth hormone in recent years. Law enforcement officials have said they have no evidence in their sprawling multistate probe that customers, including Blige or other entertainers, violated any laws. Instead, they are targeting anti-aging clinics, doctors and pharmacists who prescribed the drugs.

180

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 16:19

Report: Mitchell tried to contact Clemens twice before report
ESPN.com news services

Former U.S. Sen. George Mitchell twice tried to talk to Roger Clemens about his alleged steroid use included in his report before its release, USA Today reported Monday.

Mitchell twice sent letters to the Major League Baseball Players' Association requesting to speak to players who would be mentioned in his report into illegal use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs in Major League Baseball. The letters included the dates of their alleged steroid use and the teams they played for when they allegedly used performance enhancers.

In an e-mail sent to USA Today, Mitchell said he sent letters to the players' union in the summer and in October, requesting to talk to players named in the report.

In the October letter, Mitchell wrote: "During the course of any such interview, I will inform the player of the evidence of their use, including permitting him to examine and answer questions about copies of relevant checks, mailing receipts, or other documents, and give him an opportunity to respond."

In the first letter sent to the union, Mitchell told the newspaper that he provided detailed information regarding players who would be named in the report.

"We identified the year(s) during which the alleged use had occurred and the club(s) with which the players were then affiliated," Mitchell wrote to USA Today. "Roger Clemens was one of the players listed in those letters."

Last Monday, Clemens claimed he did not know that he was going to be named in the Mitchell report and that Mitchell wouldn't disclose the nature of the allegations to his agents...

181

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Tue, Jan 15, 2008, 11:48

Clemens takes an early hit.

182

ChicagoTRS
ID: 30471016
Tue, Jan 15, 2008, 15:17

anyone watch the congrssional hearings today? I only caught a few minutes...did not learn much...it basically seemed like the committee just putting more pressure on selig and especially Fehr... Fehr just comes off slimey...very much the lawyer.

183

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Tue, Jan 15, 2008, 16:30

I thought it was a total waste of time. The Congressional committee members spent too much time congratulating Selig and Fehr for their efforts since they last met in 2005 and Selig and Fehr just said "We'll give that serious consideration next time we meet" to just about everything.

All in all, they got off very easy, IMO. I was very disappointed.

Jayson Stark ran a blog during the hearings.

184

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Tue, Jan 15, 2008, 16:34

Though I wouldn't want to be Miguel Tejada or Roger Clemens.

185

Perm Dude
ID: 2609178
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 09:42

World Anti-Doping agency slams Selig & Fehr

186

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 15:59

Freezing of blood samples for future testing would certainly be a deterrent to the temptation to use currently undetectable synthetic substances.

With all the millions of dollars in athletic salaries to be made, it's a proven fact that the cheaters are always one step ahead of the testers.

And it would certainly prevent a repeat of what's happened already where no one can prove beyond a reasonable doubt who has used and who has not.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

187

Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 16:17

Uh oh, sounds like McNamee kept his own "blue dress" in order to "Lewinski" Clemens.

McNamee gave vials with traces of steroids and human growth hormone, as well as blood-stained syringes and gauze pads that might contain Clemens' DNA, to the Justice Department's BALCO investigators. McNamee kept the vials, gauze pads and syringes from the 2000 and 2001 seasons because he feared Clemens would deny using performance-enhancing drugs, the source told the Daily News.

188

ChicagoTRS
ID: 344311322
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 17:22

Funny they waited for Roger to testify under oath before releasing this bit of info...maybe he and Bonds can share a cell.

189

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 17:26

Clemens probably thought there was no one that could prove he cheated. Ooops!

190

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 15:13

Penn professors' findings contradict Clemens' analysis of career stats

191

Taxman
SuperDude
ID: 029463114
Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 12:49

Seems that government disregards 4th amendment for other than terrorist actions. Judge in Bonds case skeptical of Novitzky..lead Balco Investigator

Novitsky has seriously pissed off the Federal District Judge assigned the Bonds perjury trial. Always a bad plan to piss off a Federal Judge.

192

Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 11:53

My guess is that Clemens doesn't show tomorrow. You can go to jail for perjury before a congressional committee.

193

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 11:59

He's already been deposed under oath and has/would have a subpoena for tomorrow. His strategy seems to be that you can't PROVE I'm lying.

194

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 12:00

ESPN News is saying (via Congressman Tom Davis)that Pettitte's deposition backed McNamee's claims.

195

Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 12:21

That's why he can't show (Pettitte deposition).

196

Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 12:24

He should learn from the Bill Clinton example: if you have an opportunity to avoid committing perjury, TAKE IT.

197

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 13:40

Pettitte reportedly asked off the hearings tomorrow "to avoid testifying directly against his good friend, Roger Clemens."

198

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 13:50

Pettite already testified behind closed doors and supposedly a lot of what he had to say was damning against Clemens and backed up McNamee. He asked out of the public testimony because he did not want to say the same things in public.

I think Clemens strategy is going to result in him going to jail.

199

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 01:24

Pettitte: Clemens talked about using HGH.

200

Texas Flood
ID: 37082014
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 11:14

I'm watching this Capitol Hill testimony and its obvious that
Clemens in lying. I almost feel bad for him. What a terrible way to
end such a great career. Reminds me of Pete Rose in some
strange sort of way.

201

Perm Dude
ID: 25139138
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 12:59

Clemens having a tough go of it, that's for sure.

202

Razor
ID: 420241513
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 13:02

How much of Clemens' career was great? According to these reports, he's been cheating for nearly half of his career.

203

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 13:22

Seems like a couple congressman are trying to win points by calling out McNamee and lauding Clemens. They just needto look at the ESPN polling map. I mean in ND, 93% think Clemens is lying. The "best" % for Clemens is Texas where 75% think he's lying. Most states are 83%-87% in agreement that Clemens is lying.

It's funny, how Clemens licks his lips so much. Is it a tell or is he just nervous? I've seen many talks by Clemens but had never seen him do that before until the 60 mins. interview.

204

Building 7
ID: 471052128
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 14:28

Thanks for the updates. So Congress is lecturing/questioning these baseball guys about honesty? This is the profession (politician) that ranks just below used car salesman in terms of honesty. These are the ones with the 11% approval rating. This ought to be good.

205

Perm Dude
ID: 25139138
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 14:30

Congress has a low rating because they don't have the balls to confront Bush (with an even lower rating). They don't have a low rating because people think they are lying about their use of HGH.

206

Great One
ID: 27154129
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:10

WFAN just pointed this out, but they were right... it was ridiculous how the Republicans were trying to tear down McNamee and sounded like they were Rogers hired defense attorneys. Roger must have some serious Republican connections (we know he is tight with the Bush family).

To the point where the lead apologized to McNamee at the end for the attacks by these individuals on him.

207

Great One
ID: 27154129
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:16

I guess we aren't the only ones... just came across a thread that was "Is Roger Clemens the Republican nominee for President?!"

208

Philsphan
Donor
ID: 301442416
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:27

Did McNamee lie like Burton accused him of? Seems McNamee agreed with every accusation made against him. Why would he lie before, but now this testimony is valid? Did he provide an answer?

Why don't we ask why Waxman and the rest of the democrats are ignoring McNamee's previous perjury?

I agree with Building 7.

209

Great One
ID: 27154129
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:29

The examples of McNamee's previous lies are not perjury because they were just in interviews with reporters etc - not in court or in front of Congress.

210

Perm Dude
ID: 25139138
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:36

They do, however, have some relevance.

It really is too bad that this has turned into a political problem. It is clear that Republicans are attacking his accusers while letting Clemens slide.

The next step might be asking Pettite back to testify openly.

211

Great One
ID: 27154129
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:40

Certainly it shows he has a track record of lying. But that is not a criminal offense. That is not perjury.

212

Philsphan
Donor
ID: 301442416
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:46

Perjury certainly wasn't the word to use; I should have said "previous lie".

But isn't that beside the point whether he was under oath or not? His motives should be in question regardless of whether it's perjury or not. The fact is that he said one thing earlier, says something else now, only one congressman is legitimately asking about the contradiction and all of the sudden we line up in our red and blue boxes.

This has turned political, and any congressional hearing anymore is now about taking the opposite position of the other party member on the committee. The truth was long ago left by the wayside. And it's a shame.

213

Great One
ID: 27154129
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:50

Chris Russo on WFAN "I am a registered Republican and I am completely embarrassed by their actions today"

214

Perm Dude
ID: 25139138
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 15:51

Well, it is more than a "he said/he said" kind of thing. For one thing, Pettite said Clemens talked about taking HGH. And the trainer kept blood and syringe samples.

215

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:03

Philsphan
His motives should be in question regardless of whether it's perjury or not.

That's exactly why MacNamee's testimony is relevent, despite his history of dishonesty. It's not hard to guess at his motives in any lie he's been previously caught in or owned up to. He's a drug dealer and a criminal, he's lied to law enforcement and MLB officials and employers and surely many others in order to further and cover up his illegal activities.

But now with everything out on the table, all of those reasons for him to lie have been taken away. And indeed, we know that he wasn't lying about Andy Pettitte and we know that he wasn't lying about Chuck Knoblauch, as both of those players have corroborated his accounts. Why, at this point in time, would he tell the truth about Pettitte and Knoblauch and toss in a lie about Clemens?

216

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:07

Even though the "evidence" with Clemens DNA on it hasn't legally been hrough the proper chain of custody, if there are traces of Winstrol or HGH on them and NOT B12 or Lidicaine (sp?) then that should tell you right there that Clemens is lying as McNamee said he never injected Clemens with those substances and Clemens said that's the only things he injected him with and agreed that McNamee has his DNA.

217

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 15023167
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:25

And indeed, we know that he wasn't lying about Andy Pettitte and we know that he wasn't lying about Chuck Knoblauch, as both of those players have corroborated his accounts. Why, at this point in time, would he tell the truth about Pettitte and Knoblauch and toss in a lie about Clemens?

This is pretty much the idea I keep coming back to in my own mind.

Many players named have already confessed, apologized, and otherwise accepted what McNamee has stated. The more players that accept it, the more Clemens looks like the odd man out and the more his story loses credibility.

218

barilko6
ID: 01141313
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:27

Did anyone from the panel ask Clemens, while under oath, if he would be willing to take a DNA test?

That would have been worthy of a Prime time TV slot.

219

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:30

Clemens admitted that McNamee had his DNA on those needles/gause pads, etc.

220

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:33

An independant doctor that Congress obtained said that the absesses that Clemens had were likley from Winstrol and HGH and that a B12 shot is inconsistent with causing that. However, Clemens' attorneys found another doctor saying that it doesn't mean it was steroids or HGH apparently. But Clemens said those were from a B12 shots or a torn muscle though a MRI shows no tearing at all and all the other doctors said it had to have come from previous injections.

221

Philsphan
Donor
ID: 301442416
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:54

213-215

I agree that McNamee's testimony is very relevant. And I keep coming back to Pettitte and Knoblauch too as the ties that may ultimately bind everything. But what caught me first was the perception that the republicans were out of line and embarassing. Well, maybe they were, but they at least brought up this fact about McNamee's earlier contradictions, and that was what I was referring to originally.

Clemens may well be guilty. The fact that he has copped to the syringes and gauze pads and needles being in McNamee's posession, plus the Pettitte factor is not good.

But is Roger Clemens stupid enough to put himself out there as the Second Coming of Rafael Palmeiro?

222

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:01

is Roger Clemens stupid enough to put himself out there as the Second Coming of Rafael Palmeiro?

From my perspective he's wagering the risk of a federal perjury charge against the threat to his reputation. If he invokes 5th through this process he comes out stinking like a juiced rat, anyway.

223

Perm Dude
ID: 25139138
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:05

Pride, particularly among athletes, is a very powerful thing. Yes, I think Clemens might very well deny the use of HGH through a perjury charge.

224

Philsphan
Donor
ID: 301442416
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:12

And that's kind of my point. I think he's risking even more than that.

So he doesn't invoke the 5th, and takes the diametrically opposed stance of his accuser. He is risking a lot more than the HOF here imo.

225

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:13

I agree with MITH on this. He's gambling that even if he's caught lying that Justice can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Also feels that his fame will help him as obvious by his campaigning to primarily Republican Congressmen.

I am shocked by what some of these Republican's said and did to McNamee, but like Waxler said, some of it was brought on himself. As bad as Burton was, he did bring up good points in that McNamee had lied before the Mitchell investigation began. But I think that goes to show you that he was a reluctant witness to bad-mouth Clemens until faced with the ultimate penalties if he told a lie.

I also agree with Souder, like Burton, a congressman from Indiana. I didn't catch his party, but he said after the hearings that the legal process often uses drug-dealers or other bad guys to get to the truth of a situation and that he beleives McNamee. I didn't catch one Congressman who didn't believe Pettitte and Pettitte was very specific in saying that Clemens discussed using these drugs with him.

226

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:35

He is risking a lot more than the HOF here imo.

Agreed, the risk is high (a perjury conviction) but I'm not sure how likely it is. I think there was a very strong case that Raphael Palmeiro had perjured himself but the committee didn't refer the case to the DOJ and the DOJ didn't act on their own to take it up.

So there's the question of whether he'd be charged at all and then of course a prosecutor has to actually win the case. Whatever Clemens thinks the chances are, apparently to him the odds are worth it.

It's the HOF, it's his reputation and as PD points out, it's a whole lotta stupid pride.

And on the topic of stupidity, was anyone else really surprised at how poorly spoken Clemens is? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some career jock isn't very articulate, but for whatever reason I was taken aback. I guess it's a lot easier to not sound like a dumbass in a 90 second postgame interview than it is before a Congressional hearing.

Or is 'misremember' official Texas vernacular?

227

Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:47

Did anybody else crack up when that one Congresswoman started her spiel by saying how they had more important things to do like cutting government waste, then she pulls out a giant poster with pictures of Clemens through the ages that supposedly exonerate him. I bet she did that on her own time with her own money.

228

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:51

Steroids by themselves do not create size. I think a lot of people think if you take thos substances your muscles will just grow.

229

chode
ID: 293141514
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:53

Misremember is a word.

You might look up haughtiness too before trying the "Texas vernacular" card again.

230

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:55

She presented the poster with a long intro about his training regimine so I think the idea is that a workout nut would surely develop notable muscle mass with HGH use.

But of course as a pitcher, Clemens doesn't likely spend his time in the gym powerlifting.

231

Perm Dude
ID: 25139138
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:58

That's funny, Balrog. I doubt she even realized the irony!

I ran across this blog entry earlier today as well.

232

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:01

Well I stand corrected! Perhaps I once knew it was a word and just misremembered it.

233

Great One
ID: 19057139
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:12

I looked up misremembered myself... I was unaware it was a real word lol.

234

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:32

For the record, my 'Texas vernacular card' was not played against the State of Texas. It was a reference to President Bush, whom I believe I've frequently heard use the word.

235

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 19:18

What a sad state of affairs. I'd like to believe Clemens, and an innocent man would do pretty much all that Clemens is doing - denying, fighting to save his name, etc. But I just don't believe him. McNamee might be a slimeball, a "drug dealer", a liar, etc but there's just no reason for him to correctly implicate Pettitte and Knoblauch but fabricate a case against Clemens.

The point of an elite athlete's pride standing in the way of reasonable judgment is something becoming crystal clear here. First with Bonds, and now with Clemens (and going back to Pete Rose), even in the face of horribly damning evidence, they will fight to the death to try to keep their pride. One article compared these guys' continued denials to Pete Rose, who (it seemed) with every denial only convinced himself even more that his denials were factual when in fact they weren't.

Under the assumption Clemens is lying, and assuming he told his lawyers this (and that's not exactly a wise assumption), he sure is getting crappy advise. Under my assumptions, you have to figure those lawyers helped convince Clemens to fight based upon their confidence in being able to discredit McNamee and that a denial without more credible physical evidence could stick. I guess Roger forgot to tell him about that convo with Andy.

236

Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 19:26

Also in the crappy advise category: claiming that he couldn't have been at Canseco's house over a three day period and presenting as proof a receipt from the golf course next to Canseco's house. How could he have possibly driven next door in less than three days?

237

Building 7
ID: 48033121
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 20:42

$50 trillion in debt, immigration problems, a war in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan, Social Security funding problems, Medicare funding problems, a war on terror, infrastructure problems,dollar going down the toilet, sub-prime mess, and today in Congress:

Davis: "Mr. Clemens, do you recall bleeding through your pants in 2001?"

Clemens: "I do not."

238

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:03

Marion Jones did the same thing. I've NEVER taken steroids. I swear! Only to later admit it.

239

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:29

I just recently finished reading "Game of Shadows"

After reading that I don't believe anyone.

240

clv
Sustainer
ID: 5911351713
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 13:26

"$50 trillion in debt, immigration problems, a war in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan, Social Security funding problems, Medicare funding problems, a war on terror, infrastructure problems,dollar going down the toilet, sub-prime mess, and today in Congress:

Davis: 'Mr. Clemens, do you recall bleeding through your pants in 2001?'

Clemens: 'I do not.'"

The beauty of today is the most important testimony can now be heard...

Davis: "Mr. clv, considering yesterday's testimony, mudslinging, and hullaballoo, what do you make of all this?"

clv: "Mr. Congressman, I absolutely couldn't give a !@#$...PITCHERS AND CATCHERS HAVE REPORTED!!!"

;-D

241

JeffG
Leader
ID: 01584348
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 23:02

Interesting comment by SI's Jon Heyman on WFAN's Mike and the Mad Dog which I am watching the replay now on YES. The fact that all the GOP congressman were in Clemens' corner, and the fact that Clemens even mentioned the encouragement he received from former President Bush, he is saying that it would not surprise anyone if that is a sign that the current President Bush will pardon Clemens from any perjury charges if any arise.

242

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:00

Looks like Congress has proof of at least one lie by Clemens already. Clemens has stated under oath that he didn't know that he would be in the Mitchell Report until it came out. Congress can show that he knew about it beforehand.

Story.

243

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:09

ESPN2 is reporting that Clemens' attorney thinks that his client will get a Presedential Pardon. Interesting. Are you now admitting that Clemens is lying? I mean, why else would he need a pardon?

244

Flying Polack
Sustainer
ID: 378582811
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:38

Ref: Wasn't it McNamee's attorney that mentioned the Presidential Pardon?

I don't really see how they could be confident of a pardon, do they really think the legal process will play out before January 2009?

245

Perm Dude
ID: 10136157
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:54

There doesn't have to be any play out to get a pardon.

246

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:56

FP, that would make more sense. Was working when I heard it so maybe I misheard it. Thought they said Clemens though.

247

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:08

ESPN2 now has a crawl where hardin (Clemens' attorney) is going after Rep. Waxman saying he created this circus.

I read a good article on ESPN yesterday talking about how everyone else in this mess had taken responsiblity of their own actions except Clemens. He always had an excuse and someone else to blame. The attorneys are the same way. Hardin has been trying to strike first in every issue--taking the offensive. Why?!?! IMM it's because he's trying to take the attention away from the guilt and smoking gun. It's like an illusionist. Watch this hand, while I do something else with my other hand.

248

Perm Dude
ID: 10136157
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:23

Yeah, I think you're right, Ref.

249

Toral
ID: 575542418
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:23

The issue of Clemens' HOF chances now gets kind of anything. I think the odds are that Clemens is never charged with perjury, and gets no MLB discipline. However, 90% of fans regard him as a cheater, serial liar and persecutor.

So...what happens on HoF ballot day? Does he still get in first ballot, do the voters slap his hand by making him wait a year or two before he gets in, or is he SOL forever? It only takes 26% of voters to say "No way, Roger" for him to be out for life. However a lot of voters will take the positions "No absolute proof", "Everybody did it" and "Still would have made it without the illegal stuff".

I think there's a good chance that Clemens' vote totals hang within the 40%-60% area for decades.

Toral

250

Perm Dude
ID: 10136157
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:29

BTW, I think part of Clemens' problem in the hearing is that he had no idea that what he said would be attacked the way he was. Partly because he is a pitcher who is used to being the attacker, but also the whole political process thrives on such public bloodletting. He was constantly saying things like "helping you guys out" and "came here to clear the air" but he didn't realize that those words mean nothing to the committee (and certainly didn't have the impact Clemens thought it would). For them he was there because he was compelled to be there--nothing more and nothing less.

They treated Clemens as a hostile witness, and neither he, nor his lawyers, ever saw it coming.

251

Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:46

My boss thinks that any HOF worthy candidates that are shown to have used steroids - Bonds and Clemens, so far, will not be elected by the writers, but some day will be voted in by the Veterans' Committee because some day that committee will be comprised mainly with players from this so-called "Steroid Era".

Sounds plausible.

252

Great One
ID: 27154129
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:19

Gregg Zaun denied buying steroids from Kirk Radomski in 2001, saying that his $500 check that landed in Radomski's hands went through Jason Grimsley.

Zaun said he owed his then Royals teammate Grimsley $500 and wrote him a check without filling in the name of the recipient. Grimsley then made the check payable to Radomski and used it to purchase steroids for himself, Zaun says. Backing Zaun up is that the handwriting on the check appears to match Grimsley's from the multiple checks signed by Grimsley included in the Mitchell Report. Zaun wasn't sure why he owed Grimsley money, but a source told the National Post it was from losses on a basketball bet and Zaun didn't deny that possibility. Feb. 15 - 12:10 pm et

253

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:25

I relate Clemens hall of fame chances to McGwire...Mac never really admitted guilt...he was made the fool in front of Congress...if anything there is more hard proof that Clemens was a steroid user. I expect Clemens hall of fame vote will likely be in the same 25% range as McGwire.

254

Flying Polack
Sustainer
ID: 378582811
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:09

It sure will be interesting if Bonds and Clemens are both on the 2013 ballot together for the first time.

I imagine another 5 years will give us a whole different level of perspective on the era. I expect they'll both end up in the HOF.

255

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:37

I agree with one of Toral's scenarios after Clemens is caught or beleived to have used steroids. I think inevitably Clemens will say even if you think I did it, the whole era is filled with many guys who did it. If you're going to elect anyone from that era, than I should be included.

Albeit, Clemens dug himself a big hole when he said in his press conference (paraphrasing), to hell with the HOF, it's not about that, don't vote for me. I don't care. I think this crusade is MAINLY about that. He wants in and he wants to be considered one of the greatest pitchers of all-time.

It really is a pride thing. It is so hard to swallow our pride at times, but many people learn to do it as they get older. But some people are so used to getting their way they think they can always get out of whatever predicament they are in and still not have to admit responsibility.

As a fellow human and sinner, I think it would be easier if he admitted responsibility--like Pettitte and seemingly everyone else in the Mitchell Report--instead of continuing this charade (assuming he is in fact lying). I could probably be swayed at some point to allow him in down the line or with the veterans committee, etc. It's hard to un-ring the bell a la Rose, Jones, etc. McGwire also lied for awhile saying he only ever used Andro, but he wasn't stupid enough to do it under oath and risk his freedom. Now he's backed himself into a corner. Clemens is literally going all-in on a bluff and I've got a strong feeling that Justice is going to call that bluff.

256

Building 7
ID: 471052128
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:04

They told Rose all he had to do was tell the truth and say he's sorry and he would get in the HOF. So he did that, and it didn't happen. Perhaps Clemens is aware of that. Also, the McGwire HOF vote is informative. Had Clemens not testified before the Congressional Blubberers, he would have received a Mcgwire-like 25% HOF vote. He probably thought it would be worth it to testify since he had nothing to lose HOF-wise.

257

Perm Dude
ID: 10136157
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:07

Rose never told the truth--he merely continued to leach it out as time has gone on. He continued to lie about what he did at the time, and he was penalized accordingly. And he was never promised a place on the HOF ballot. That was always Rose's hope, but is was never promised to him.

258

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:14

[256] Agree 100%.

259

ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:34

With Clemens I believe he is a desperate man and he has enough ego to think that he can explain this all away. Once he took the route of complete denial...lies beget lies. Personally I think he would have been far better off choosing the Pettitte route and coming clean immediately. I think the problem Clemens has is he was probably a heavy user...it was not just to recover from an injury or just a small experiment. He was likely a regular user for nearly ten years.

260

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:40

This story just keeps getting better...

Reps Waxman (D) and Davis (R) made a combined statement that they agreed to call off Wednesday's hearings as they felt they had enough with the depositions but Clemens' attorneys demanded the hearings to go on as scheduled.

Clemens' attorneys deny that is the case and said Waxman started this circus several weeks ago and Clemens' attorneys wanted it called off.

So now the Congressman are lying? This Mike and Mike "Just Shut Up" award will be a tough one between Clemens and his attorneys (esp. Hardin).

261

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 421148121
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:52

[256] There's a bit more to Rose's story than that because Rose only made his admission in a biographical book, meaning he was directly profiting from his "I'm sorry." Not exactly humble or just telling the simple truth, is it?

Further, I recall part of the supposed agreement for reinstatement was that Rose had to admit he bet on Cincinnati Reds games. He has never admitted to that, despite overwhelming evidence in the Dowd Report (page 196+).

My point is that these kinds of players/people like to pick and choose what to admit to and/or what rules to follow and then say, "See, I did everything they asked for and they're still persecuting me." And, to the general public, their case is solid. But, the fact remains that they're still just doing what benefits them the most.

-----

As for Clemens, yet another Mitchell Report player seems to indicate he's guilty of what's contained in the report. Though never fully admitting to what was reported, this is certainly a Giambi-like apology.

Anybody keeping a count of how many players are left before Clemens is the Last Player Standing?

262

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 23:57

LoDuca admitted it. I am not sure who is left. The only ones to be named from Balco or Mitchell Report to deny it to my knowledge are Bonds and Clemens.

263

clv
Sustainer
ID: 5911351713
Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 12:40

Really like Heyman's take on SI.com today...

"The Wronged Man"

264

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 14:34

If anyone had these two guys pegged, believe it or not, it was McNamee. Pettitte's deposition revealed that McNamee advised Pettitte against taking HGH because he wasn't sure Pettitte could live with himself if he did. And he does appear to be paying now.

As for Clemens, McNamee kept those used and bloody syringes and gauze pads. Because he just knew that push comes to shove, Clemens would try to shove anyone in his way.

265

Frick
ID: 23117516
Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 14:40

I admire Pettite for admitting that he was sorry for taking HGH. But while all of the players that are sorry for taking HGH, I haven't seen any of them taking any real action. Why not donate part of that $15M annual salary that was drastically increased by your PED's to a charity that will try and keep kids from PEDs.

The current lesson that will be learned is that PEDs help you make a bunch of money and then you say you are sorry. For a potential $20M payday I wish I could do that.

266

Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 14:48

Frick:

I admire Pettite for admitting that he was sorry for taking HGH.

Do you believe that he is genuinely sorry for taking HGH in the sense that, placed back in the same position, he wouldn't have done so?

Toral

267

mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 15:36

Pettite seemed contrite, but I think some of these guys are only sorry that they got caught.

There's way too much money involved for players to stop doing this stuff.

What's $20K to pay your personal chemist to create an undetectable designer steroid when there's millions of dollars in contracts at stake?

268

clv
Sustainer
ID: 5911351713
Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 15:40

"Do you believe that he is genuinely sorry for taking HGH in the sense that, placed back in the same position, he wouldn't have done so?"

It's going to be the same old song from everyone who admits to having done them...

"I only tried them a couple times. I was injured and the team needed me, so I did not only what I had to, but the same thing everyone else was doing to get back out there and help my team win. I didn't do it for me, I did it for my teammates and the fans."

Same useless drivel Clemens has been spouting while DENYING his use. No one's going to give the money back. Difference is, Pettitte is the ONLY one I've heard open his mouth that I think is truly sorry. You don't expect anyone to be the one to start it, but if the fans put enough pressure on management and the Players' Association to get it started, I'd be willing to bet that Pettitte turns into one of the biggest contributors.

269

RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 17:36

Difficult to call this hard-evidence, but if you are going to lie, be sure there are no shots of you in your Bruno Maglis.

270

Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 11:06

Re post 226 and the liklihood that the committe will refer a possible case or perjury to the DOJ:

The House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on Wednesday asked the Department of Justice to investigate whether Clemens lied under oath to Congress in its probe into the use of performance-enhancing substances in baseball.

Forum: basePage 19427Subject: Mitchell Report

Forum: base
Page 19427
Subject: Mitchell Report