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Forum: base
Page 19822
Subject: Hey Dave! They're talking about you....

Posted by: Donavan - [422523014] Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 22:32

Look at this thread:

Discussion of Rotoguru

Comments?

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 12:03

Much ado about nothing.

I've been doing this for 11 years now - all with TSN's consent. Encouragement, even. In fact, when they went to the new format this season, they asked if I needed any assistance to continue to access data for the sortables and the Assimilator. As it turned out, I was able to figure it all out (with some assistance from other Gurupies) without any direct help from TSN - but the fact that they asked me certainly shows that they are aware of and supportive of my efforts.

I'm not pulling any data from TSN that's not already publicly available from the TSN site. I am calculating some data that isn't published or available - particularly data that is related to eligible games. I develop and maintain that specific data myself.

The whole concept is neither new, nor unique, nor unfair. I know of sites that allow you to import league data from a Yahoo league and then crunch some analysis. Same concept.

I know that some users at the TSN forum have animosity towards RotoGuru, or at least towards acknowledged Gurupies. So be it. It's their issue, not mine.

blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 12:26

I haven't been to the TSN boards in a while, but man does their layout stink.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 14:36

Really I don't have any animosity towards this site. I just don't like the idea of competitive in balance. I had said a few years earlier that if TSN posted a link to here no problems. But if the only way to find this is a link in the forum to me that excluded the people who either don't read the forum or read it and the link was already gone from the front page.

I like it here. Really I do. Honest.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 12353217
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 16:06

"Yes if Dave was getting the data for his own personal use no problem. If he was getting it to share with a select group a huge problem. And the select group becomes people who visit rotoguru.com . Not everyone knows of it. That makes you and I part of the select group."

Wow! I feel special now. Here I thought anybody could access this site with just a simple Google search and a couple of clicks. I had no idea I had some special portal that allowed me access and blocked others.

Thanks Dave!!!

All sarcasm aside, just because a group of people doesn't know about a web site doesn't mean the web site is for a "select group." It just means it's not as popular as the site it's being compared to. For instance:

SportingNews.com > RotoGuru.com > Kafenatid.net

You've confused exclusion with popularity. Using your confused logic, somehow my site is even more exclusive than Dave's. (Sorry, Dave.)

blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 16:19

Actually, our esteemed Gurupie brethren J is not able to access rotoguru.com from work. So he is not part of the exclusive group. Sucker!

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 16:22

No I didn't confuse anything. If you were just beginning to play at TSN would you know that the data you were looking for was located at some other site. Whether it was here or at bad poets?

ChicagoTRS
ID: 3218189
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 16:31

OH...actually that is exactly how I found this site initially...was a newbie to playing Small World (now TSN)...googling for info led me to here...and here I am nearly 10 years later...

there is no doubt people who access this site have an advantage...but all of the data on this site is accessible from TSN just much better organized and most of the work is already done for you...it is no different that many other things in fantasy sports...there is basically an entire industry around providing fantasy players with draft cheat sheets, sorted data, etc...

Mith
Dude
ID: 01629107
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 16:39

a newbie to playing Small World (now TSN)...googling for info led me to here...and here I am nearly 10 years later...

Same story.

J
Leader
ID: 049346417
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 16:49

Actually, our esteemed Gurupie brethren J is not able to access rotoguru.com from work. So he is not part of the exclusive group. Sucker!

Nah, I've always been able to access rotoguru from work. kafenatid.net however is blocked!

weykool
ID: 2842717
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 16:56

Actually, our esteemed Gurupie brethren J is not able to access rotoguru.com from work. So he is not part of the exclusive group. Sucker!

Rotoguru.com is blocked at my work as well.
However......the Rotoguru forums are not....go figure.

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 12353217
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 17:14

No I didn't confuse anything. If you were just beginning to play at TSN would you know that the data you were looking for was located at some other site. Whether it was here or at bad poets?

In 1998, when I was first started playing Smallworld, long before TSN or the TSN forums existed, I found RotoGuru through an internet search. I'm sure the far majority of people here found RotoGuru the same way.

But even if I didn't know of RotoGuru, I could just crunch the numbers myself, since all the data is publicly accessible.

Khahan
ID: 391582715
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 17:30

Well, I found rotoguru because Mike D introduced smallworld and rotoguru to my brother who introduced it to me. So I guess since I was 'brought on board' by a gurupie I am proof positivie of Old Hippie's theory that this is an exclusive group with exclusive access. Too bad I don't play TSN anymore.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 17:41

I found Rotoguru through a Echelon Sports (later Swirve) LINK to Rotoguru on their website. Wow, looking at my Hall of Fame entries is blows my mind that I came across the site in 1998 before winning the 2nd ever Market Madness game in 1999. Wow.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 17:47

Then I must be extremely stupid. Because it never dawned to me that to find ownership numbers from TSN I would need to go to another site.

I also found it through Yahoo ( I think) but I wasn't searching for TSN data but was looking for ways to get better at fantasy sports. All you people who found it through a search engine what were you searching for? TSN ownership numbers? Or maybe a place that could project what players could score during a certain time period using the TSN scoring system.

While you were quoting why not the part about the "contribution" to this site to see ownership numbers for basketball. That kind of puts it into the exclusive bunch doesn't it? You don't contribute you don't get the numbers. You "contribute" you get to see them.

Also in that thread I expressly stated that I held no animosity towards here. I stated that I enjoy it here because of the diverse opinions. I stated that I come here at least once a day.

Fine you can crunch the numbers and write the programs. Not everyone can. Or maybe everyone here can.

What I have always contended is that TSN knowingly was giving the numbers to be used here there should be a notice where everyone can see it.

I used to like the kaftnid also. Even spent time going through some stories one day. I always thought that it was a pretty nice site. But lately it just hasn't seemed worth it to go there. Fact when I first started playing baseball I would check my players there for points before I went to work. Fact I knew about that place before this one.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 17:59

Okay now on a lighter note I remember reading somewhere on here that you should try and lock up a position at certain levels of FV. I think the first was 55 million but I can't remember the order that was mention.

weykool
ID: 2842717
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 18:25

Hippie:

I think you need to get a couple of facts straight.
TSN has never supplied any numbers to this site.
People on this site have written the scrips/programs to extract and organize the numbers that are available from the TSN site.
All of the information that is exctracted by the owner of this site is readily available to anyone free of charge.
The ownership numbers that were only visible to Gurupie members was a decision that was made by a contributing member.
At the time anyone who knew how to write a script could have dont the same exact work and crunched the numbers and provided the information to their fellow managers if they so chose to do so.
That member's name is RSF....who btw also maintains the TSN scoring site free of charge in spite of the fact that he is not even playing the game currently.

There were other people who extracted the same numbers and posted them on either Bad Poets site or the TSN site itself.
For the last couple of seasons TSN has limited the number of views to 50 but has been providing the numbers at the site.

RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 18:35

I always knew making the hoops ownership a contribution based thing would cause some controversy. I did it because bandwidth costs money. Didn't cost me anything (outside time to code the mining of pages available to everyone else), but it did cost Dave. I did it without consulting Dave.

You know, if I could figure out how to make the Hoops Enhanced Boxscores a contribution based item, I might just do that (although I think KKBs Firefox addon is a better tool). Heck, this one actually DOES cost ME money.

I understand what An Old Hippie is trying to get at. Not everyone knows about RotoGuru. It is potentially an advantage. To know the tool, to know how to maximize them best, thats when you get the advantage. Is it Daves fault that TSN is too lazy to develop these tools, or form an official co-op with him? The official Rotoguru tools are open to everyone. No one can argue against that point.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 19:08

I never have argued that it wasn't free here. I re read the part about contributions and can see how it might sound that I implied that the site was behind it. I knew that it was just a groupie doing it and I should have stated it that way.

The comment about TSN supplying the numbers is wrong. It should have been stated that TSN knowingly was letting their data get mined by an outside source.

And really if the site is free and only a few (taken in the context of number of managers) know about it does that make it right? Most people I know couldn't have written a script to do that. I think when I was most of your ages computers were still a dream of the future. At least having one at home.

You are wrong. Coming here and being a part of this community is a huge advantage. I was really sorry when the majority quit baseball over the day late penalty. I figured that was the time I could really learn the game.

Sorry to you all about this. I enjoy coming here and just browsing the forum. Though I think in the future browsing and not typing is better for me.

RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 19:27

Funny thing on the script writing...know where the spreadsheet that the people on the TSN forums ran to create the ownership numbers originated from? One guess...

"Though I think in the future browsing and not typing is better for me.", now that I would find sad. More/different opinions is a good thing.

BTW, I haven't read anything on the TSN boards, only what was posted here.

Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 19:46

I send my dad my projections for TSN points for football every week, based on past performance, past opponents, this week's opponent, and the TSN scoring system. They're usually wrong but I guess we're cheating because TSN doesn't link to my Excel folder. I should have sent out a press release to be fair to all. I feel so dirty...

Khahan
ID: 486552412
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 20:27

Honestly Old Hippie, I look at this from a completely different perspective and I did when I played TSN/Smallworld:

This is a resource. I am going to use it. It is available to anybody who plays TSN. There are no restrictions. There is no true exclusivity. Nobody has been told they cannot use this site. It is open to everybody. Just because somebody doesn't know about it that means nobody should use it?

Sorry, but should we not use cars to get around because a tribe in the amazon river who has had no contact with the outside world does not know they exist?

In chess, should I not use the 3 move opening kill because some players who have only done the game casually do not know about it? Should I not use the knight block of that win because some people haven't read it in a strategy book?

In baseball, should Mariano Rivera not use his cutter because there are pitchers that never learned how to throw it?

If I can figure out how to throw a pitch that will do a loop around the bat so it cannot be hit, should I not throw it because hitters have never seen it before?

I can go on and on with the silly and realistic. Its competition. You use the resources you know about to win. If you want to keep your mouth shut about those resources and hide them from everybody, that is fine. If you want to tell everybody about them, that is fine.

Rotoguru does neither. It puts itself out on the web. People who take the time to look can use it.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 20:40

Weycool maybe you should get some facts straight also.

First if TSN knew about the mining they were directly giving their product away. That just makes TSN guilty of running a fantasy site where all people don't get the same information.

Here try this one. You go play at a poker site and you lose and lose to a few people. But you can't figure out why just some people beat you. What you don't know is that they have an added advantage. Someone is getting the value of your cards and telling a couple of your opponent. Fair or not?

The line "the owner of this site" must be wrong as we all have agreed that Dave wasn't doing it.

Second the numbers should not have been made available and given out to those who "contributed". That is actually selling the numbers. If other sites are doing it does that make it right?

Before TSN closed down this practice(outside mining) there was no information about ownership numbers at TSN.

# 20 Balrog have you ever heard the expression comparing apples to oranges? If you haven't and someone tells you about it someday think about your example and then try to fit it the rest of the thread.

barilko6
ID: 23217297
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 20:53

Yeah, this argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Don't we all have our favorite fantasy sites where we glean information?

Doesn't Rotoworld, ESPN, CHONE, PECOTA, etc, etc, etc, all provide us with various forms of FREE information and projections that we can use for our pools and leagues? Just because I have found some and others haven't, how can that be an unfair advantage? All of these are out there for the finding.

If we aren't going to be comparing apples to oranges, then I think your poker analogy wouldn't work either. All of the information provided here is readily available for those that want to work on their own to get it. Some do that. Others read reports (including from this site)from those that have already done the work for them.

With your argument Hippie, I think we would have to eliminate any prospectus magazines, and pre-season projections materials, and fantasy websites, any fearless forecasters....and do the menial task of coming up with our own projections, predictions, and forecasts. I mean someone may have purchased Bill James handbook this year, but because I didn't, that would make it an unfair advantage.

Great One
ID: 4425722
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 21:29

It was probably Blue Hen!

Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 21:37

RE: 22

Apples/oranges. Just trying to get you to clarify your point. Are you saying no-one should have to pay for analyses of TSN strategy? Are you saying all TSN strategy analyses should be distributed to all TSN players? Are you saying using any strategy not posted clearly on the TSN site is cheating?

TB
ID: 2121280
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 21:53

Flashbacks to Smallworld and Echelon. I miss the old days.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 22:21

No I am saying you giving information to your father no matter how bad it is isn't the same as what we were discussing.

Next the one about projections, fantasy mags, and the like are not using direct TSN ownership numbers to make them are they?

Maybe the poker analogy wasn't the same but it involved someone having an unfair advantage over you.

Back when I went through this same crap about ownership numbers and how they should be available at TSN instead of an outside site people couldn't accept the fact that it helped them but was an unfair advantage to those who didn't have access to them.

We are talking ownership numbers here. We weren't talking about how you got here. Though no one from that part seemed to want to admit that they didn't plug TSN ownership numbers in a search engine to find rotoguru.com . We weren't talking about fantasy projections, prospectus, or magazines. We were plain and simple talking ownership numbers and how the group that has them that group has an advantage over the group that didn't.

It was all that freaking simple. If you didn't feel it offered the slightest advantage in winning you wouldn't be using them. And my contention that if they offer you some help then they should be made available to all. If this site or any other site has them it should be posted where any manager at TSN would know about them.

I had never said that I had any anomosity towards this site or RFK.I like this one. I really do. Honestly.

And yup I am not very smart. I can't type and my spelling and grammer suck. I'll admit to that so it doesn't become someones point later on.

I also believe that in a contest everything should be as fair as possible. And for that I am really stupid.

Tree
ID: 41371322
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 22:21

im totally confused by the argument. i mean, this info is available to anyone. so, why is there some disadvantage. it's just one of many tools available on the 'net...

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 22:24

To funny though. For the fun of it I typed TSN ownership numbers into google. We(this thread) is the 2nd listing

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 22:29

How does that happen? And on the next page is the link for the TSN forum. How did it get there?

Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:12

If money's the issue, you're really off-base here. I'm pretty sure that RSF and Rotoguru aren't raking in big bucks off of TSN. In fact, it's probably the other way around.

You'd be more on track if you complained that TSN makes a fantasy game, then wants to charge you an extra $5/month for their Fantasy Source product. One must assume that if anybody has inside info into the hidden workings of the game, it would be the makers of the game itself, not somebody who simply uses the data that every other player has access to.

Donavan
ID: 422523014
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:14

Hippie....you have made valid opinions on many a subject here (and your writing is fine by the way) but exactly what is your argument of essense and what do you hope to accomplish?

Is it simply that TSN has NOT nor WILL NOT advertise rotoguru.com on its website? If so, I think you'd have to bring it up with the PTB'S over there cuz I sure don't think Guru's going to be buying an ad there anytime soon. ;) Yes, there may be an advantage from using Guru's toys, but is it our fault? Or Dave's fault? Or even TSN's fault? It is what it is.

People have been talking about this site since the times of smallworld and I'm guessing there have been numerous posts written this year on the TSN message boards that have pointed the uneducated this way. But, if they don't want to check out the info...

Now, however, if your argument relates to amount of fantasy baseball assistance that is freely available here, well then, that's a horse of a different color isn't it?

FWIW, from what I can gather, Mr. Hall's contributions in anything fantasy-wise have been underappreciated by many at TSN but I suspect he sleeps well at night nevertheless. He is doing what could be done by anybody else (provided they had his brains, his stamina, his checkbook, his tools, his freedom of life style, and of course, his ravishing good looks.) Ok, maybe not so much the latter. LOL (Sorry Dave!) Those that have made major contributions in the past (RSF, Bad Poet,etc.) are to be commended as well.

What is known is that there used to be a small army of fantasy fanatics that visited this site and posted regularly, especially during the Smallworld days, but due to the mismanagement of many at TSN and other underlying factors, this game has changed---and not for the better.

What does this mean for the future? Hard to say. I'm just very grateful that I have found this site and I will continue to let people know about it.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 591302518
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:19

OH #22...your poker reference is good but a bit wrong...rotoguru does not show you the cards it just organizes the publicly available data and allows you to make better decisions. The exact same thing is available for online poker. 3rd party pay poker sites mine data and collect info for all online players...plug in a players screen name and look up detailed stats about a players play. Others have heads-up displays that automatically display info on every player at the table. Many individual players use pokertracker to mine all of their own and opponents to build up their own DB on players. None of this is free...and none of it is advertised on the sites...but it is a huge advantage to those who know where to get the data and know how to use it.

http://www.pokerlistings.com/
http://www.pokertracker.com/

The thing about rotoguru is it is all publicly available info on TSN...this site is basically just a collection of smart people who analyze the data and share the results. There is nothing magic or insidious about it. If an individual or individuals were motivated enough they could duplicate everything that is done here on their own. So I do not think it is an unfair advantage or cheating. Plus the fact this place is free and anyone can come here and get the same data.

I found this site initially by googling something like "TSN strategy forum"...I did not need to search for ownership numbers or anything like that...I was just looking for smart people that would give me an advantage or at least take some of the work out of it and maybe I also could contribute. Especially in the Small World days this site was more active with strategy talk and game theory.

Personally I think this is probably the best forum I have ever been involved with as far as there is never any drama here. Never really a need for much moderation. I think the average age of the people posting is a bit older than a typical forum. There are many very bright people associated with this board and the knowledge available definitely does not stop at just fantasy games.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:42

#31

Where in my last post did money ever come up? I just can't see the word money in any part of it.
Honest I really don't see it. Quote me on it here please. From that post.

Money came up earlier with the contribution that rfs to see the ownership numbers back in 2006.
That was the only time money was almost mentioned.

All I am saying is that if you use a sites data (which this one does) it should be advertised on the TSN site. Where all managers have an equal chance of seeing it. If they then don't use it so it goes. That's it. Plain and simple. If they don't use it that becomes their problem. If they don't know it exists then it is a resource that TSN indirectly is supplying by letting someone mine their data. And that doesn't keep the field of play level.

Why is this so hard to understand? I am in favor of sharing all and any information about resources that TSN has. When you use TSN data you become a resource. And sure this is rotoguru.com is free but if you don't know it exists what difference does that make?

And I did do the search on TSN ownership data to see if rotoguru.com came up on google. It didn't at least not for ownership numbers...maybe something else but not that.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:51

Donovon there has been a lot of posting on the boards and I have done some of it also. But then according to most there only a small segment reads the boards. So going by that contention only a small segment gets to know about here. And the year before TSN started to limit data to 50 teams I did a check to see the last time it had been mentioned. I went back through 2o pages of posts and never found it.

Maybe the Smallworld days were better. I didn't play there then. The first time was in 2003. Played Basic Baseball. I was totally lost. Even then I was a tradeaholic. All I can compare is the time I have been there

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:56

Oh and when I say advertised I don't mean that Dave and anyone else should be buying space. Just a notice somewhere prominent that people would see. Sorry about the confusion with that.

blue hen
ID: 8115717
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 00:05

Welcome back, Ira. It's good to see you posting again. It's 85 million, by the way.

This is a pretty ridiculous discussion. In case you're wondering, I built tools for probables and schedules that several gurupies use. They are freely available, if you can find them.

dpr
ID: 552411820
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 03:17

Old Hippie: Give us the solution you would like to see.

I bet it isnt feasible or could be even further taken advantage of.

J
Leader
ID: 049346417
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 09:38

LOL BH!!!!!

KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 721308
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 10:06

Just a notice somewhere prominent that people would see. Sorry about the confusion with that.

I wonder if I would be able to be listed, for free, since I provide TSN-related products that could, arguably, provide a benefit to those that don't know about it.

Free advertising for everybody! Woohoo!!!

rockafellerskank
ID: 2511552911
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:09

re #34 Money came up earlier with the contribution that rfs to see the ownership numbers back in 2006.
That was the only time money was almost mentioned.

I sure to get a lot of credit [free advertising] for that "thingy"

blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:17

Since people may happen upon this thread, I want to mention that Kafenatid is a really good product. If you'd like to have a slow draft, Kafenatid is about as good as it gets.

I know, I know. Free advertising for KKB. But I use his product and am quite pleased with it.

An Old Hippie
ID: 522361721
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:50

So maybe it wouldn't be feasible but just put a link under tools. Doesn't seem all that complicated to me but then I am not a programmer. Places have links that take you to other sites.

Guess I am discussing a different idea then all of you. I was looking more at increasing competition by giving everyone a chance all the data and the tools available here and at other sites. If people could use the tools available here and didn't so it goes.

Here is an apples/oranges comparison. I have always loved fishing. Have been fishing for around 50 years now and have become fairly good at it. Won a few tournaments here and there. When fishing with people I have always tried to help them find technique or tell them about a better way of presentation. Share my knowledge with them about something I love.

Now for the oranges part. I love and enjoy the TSN games. And I found this site on my own and I want to share it because it would help make people better. Blue Hen and RSF have written wonderful programs to help people compete. So why not give people the chance to use it?

A few years back I argued about the supression of ownership data unless TSN made it available for everyone. Most people disagreed. The reasons were kind of silly to me. Managers could find the information in The TSN boards. My point was first you needed to know about the boards. Then you needed to know that an outside source had the numbers. Thirdly you need the patience to find a post that even told about the site.

Then the discussion went we really don't need the numbers because as vets there is a feel to how many people owned a player. What the ownership was and who had room to grow. At the time I couldn't refute it as how do you refute a feeling. But the next year when the numbers weren't available the same managers were the ones crying that a valuable tool had been taken away from them.

All I want is to give everyone the chance to do so something better. Maybe not have 10 dead teams out of 20 by the ASB because people quit out of frustration on how badly they played. Show them there are tools to help them.

Just realized that all of you are right. The data is readily available to everyone. All people can write the code to get the data. And no one really needs help in aquiring the data or organizing it so it means something. Or having someone teach them how the game should be played. Each and everyone here wrote their own code and came with a God given ability to play.

Thanks BH and RSF I wasn't one of those people who didn't need help and you supplied what I needed. Might have been easier if it hadn't taken me a couple of years to find it and how to play the game though.

Khahan
ID: 391582715
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:20

increasing competition by giving everyone a chance all the data and the tools available here and at other sites

This I don't disagree with. I think it would be great recognition for Dave and everybody who has put in years of hard work to make this site what it is if TSN publicly acknowledged them on their game.

However, that is very different than saying that the people who use this board have an unfair advantage because of 'secret info.' As stated many times, the info here is not a secret. Its a public board that anybody can use.

yes, it would be great for tsn to link rotoguru. however it is not necessary for 'competitive fairness.'

blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:26

Oh, I help anyone who asks. Except people who complain or have handles like "Yankees Rule" or "An Old Hippie."

You know how I found out about these boards? In 1998, my first season of playing, I was so all consumed by the game, that I searched and searched for an edge, until I found one. If you're not consumed enough to find an edge, you don't deserve an edge.

Perm Dude
ID: 18351159
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:26

I don't think TSN would want to encourage direct links, since it makes their product (and accompanying tools) appear to be less "value added."

But I agree with K: This site is not secret, and it is a testament to the free hard work put in by Guru and others to make those tools available, for free, for anyone who pops in.

RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:48

An Old Hippie: "I was looking more at increasing competition by giving everyone a chance all the data and the tools available here and at other sites"

Definitely agree that they should have always provided the ownership numbers. Raw and un-TSNified.

As for the other tools...can't say I agree with that. Should they make similar ones, sure, but just because someone makes a better cart, doesn't mean TSN is obligated to hook up the horse. Fair is fair to a point...If I'm competive, I'm going to seek out the best tools.

weykool
ID: 2842717
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:31

Hippie:

Props to you for swinging into the jungle armed with only a 1" pocket knife.

Having TSN link to this site would be a bad thing.
Would you advocate that they have a link to every site that might give players additional information?
There are thousands of sites and links that they would need to post and then good luck sifting through all of the bad information to find anything useful.
The thing about RFS "charging" for ownership numbers is I dont think there is a minimum amount that needs to be donated to become a Gurupie.
Anyone who complained about this site charging for ownership numbers and is too cheap to make a donation is probably someone not worth listening to.
This is a moot point because TSN already caved to the complainers and decided to offer the numbers to everyone. (Now if we can only get them for the current baseball season)

It seems to me your argument should not be with this site for being too good but with TSN for not making the same tools available on their site.

On your poker analogy....Players that read poker books on how to play A-K are going to have decided advantage over players who dont take the time to read and get better and decide to go all in with 7-2 just because they are sooted.

Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:42

TSN has the ownership numbers for baseball on the "Finacial" view of the player lists.

barilko6
ID: 23217297
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:50

I think it all breaks down to google. If I am ever involved with something that costs money, or something in which I can win money, such as a TSN league, you can better believe I will be pounding google looking for ways to better my knowledge and chance to win.

Google is available to everyone. So is this site.

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:17

Yes Google is available to everyone. Try searching for rotoguru.com. I did. I could come up with 2 links to threads but this was one of them. So I tried different search terms. Ended up salary cap market based fantasy baseball strategy should work as that was my fourth try. Well guess what it didn't turn up rotoguru.com.

Weykool a 1 ' knife sometimes does work though. First I don't quite understand why people get the impression I am down on this site. I have never once said that I am. I am against TSN letting the numbers be used here. Which is totally different then being against here.

Explain to me what the difference is between charging someone 5 dollars or a 100 dollars for something? The only difference is 95 dollars because you are still charging.

As for the being cheap part that I can't answer. I have donated to Dave's site and with your statement I can be sure you have. But only Dave can say how many others have donated. If the others haven't donated does that make their opinions any less valid?

Actually the poker analogy is very good. Both you and I can go out and read books about hold em. We are on equal footing there unless one of us had bought a bad book. But if only I had a program that I had written that kept track of hands and tendencies and you didn't who would have the advantage. Also you had no idea such a thing existed. Right or wrong? Now suppose that you didn't know that it existed would you go and search for why you couldn't win? And I shared my data that I collected from this private web site with a group of people. The site was free but we just didn't spread it. Which till this year I very seldom had seen mention of rotoguru.com over at TSN. Still think the scenero doesn't fit?

Now BH I had nothing against you. In the past I enjoyed reading your posts. I said both you and RSF had written very good programs. Just scroll up if you missed it. The problem comes in the minute you don't want to help somebody. Doesn't that destroy all the arguements that the site is here to help everybody? Through tools and exchange of information.

Now for a personal opinion on why I could be down on this site. You are one opf the prime reasons that TSN games are dying. Sure they have done a lousy job there but I would bet more managers through the years have left because of people from here.

As an example I will use basketball. I checked the top 100 managers and teams a few weeks ago.
Anyone care to guess out of the top 100 teams how many different managers there were? 29

Now anyone care to guess of those 29 managers had a single team? 9

Now this part I can't prove because I can't access the data. But you all think real hard about this question. How many of those 100 teams are in a league that was picked out? That manager looked at the league before staying there to make sure that no one would be competition.

I was in a league that was advertised for first and second year players. Anyone care to guess who will win it? Blooki He didn't do anything wrong as the person who set up the league didn't know enough to password protect it. But does that make Blooki right for being in it? Not really in my opinion.

How often does that happen? How many managers quit because they can't compete?

You have your own thread here made last spring that goes into great detail about TSN problems. Some of your own fellow groupies laid partial blame on people from here.

So it goes

It has been fun and thanks for the fish

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 21:07

Okay this time I cheated and typed rotoguru into Google. If I was playing at Sporting News I still wouldn't have come here. The site is an authority on Smallworld and Lycos games. Wouldn't be all that helpful would it?

blue hen
ID: 8115717
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 23:10

I was one of those top 100 with a single team. Two years in a row, actually. And I'm the one person who stands to gain from the "TSN game falling apart." But that's not the point. This site is GOOD for TSN (and for sports) and anyone who says otherwise is... well, wrong. Your main disadvantage you have is that you are an idiot. That's not a blind attack; there is plenty of evidence right here in this thread. I suspect that's also why you are a terrible TSN player and haven't figured out how TSN's game works.

Rather than posting here, I recommend reading the TSN rules and maybe buy a rotowire subscription and try to get better.

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 23:39

Maybe a lot of my finishes are from living in a state that SN couldn't pay in. Always had quit a month before the season ended. Last fall football was a tad different I went into the hospital nov. 4th and got out Dec 14th. Try finishing well while missing 6 weeks. Miss the first 6 weeks in basketball and we will see how well you play.

Also have you run out of "facts" now that you resort to name calling?

See Weykool an 1" knife is more then enough.

dpr
ID: 552411820
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:08

Your proposed solution to your "problem" was that TSN create a link yet you are ranting to the people here not to TSN.

Your understanding of the analogies that others have brought against you is comical.

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:36

As for how good this site is for SN look at the thread titled "the future of TSN Ultimate". It is in basketball page 7 about halfway down.Just take the time to read it..pay close attention around post 50 through 65.

So tell me what have I been so stupid at. I have stated facts. I didn't resort to name calling. I didn't go wildly out on limbs of fantasy ideas.

I tried the idea of Google and that didn't point me here unless I wanted to learn how to play Smallworld. Well guess what a manager starting this year doesn't know that Smallworld and SN are the same place. So that would make it real easy to come here.

I spent time going through the threads looking for other groupies who expressed the same ideas that I expressed for basketball.

I stayed on one topic and didn't try to branch it into things that didn't pertain. Like the idea that buying a fantasy mag would help with the SN salary cap game. Their own fantasy mag doesn't even do that.

Most of you have been here a very long time. That is good as usually on the net it doesn't happen. You have developed a very strong sense of community. But you have also developed a sense of entitlement. That you deserve all the advantages when basically your best programs were written by you but need to mine data from SN. Whether SN gives it's permission or turns a blind eye. Don't for one moment think that everyone can do it. Cause they can't plain and simple.You let anyone use the data for free but finding here has become a trifle harder then 10 years ago. Going a step further I'll bet the majority of the people that wrote in this thread can't get the data on their own. Anyone want to take that bet?

So what was I so stupid about?

Donavan
ID: 422523014
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:44

You're doing fine Hippie....Don't let one wisearse ruin your night. I appreciate the banter and perhaps it will lead to something good for both sites.

dpr
ID: 552411820
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 01:06

I am not sure what your point with the google is. Is that everyone doesnt have equal access to this site? What if it was posted on yahoo sports? more people would have access but certainly not everyone goes there. So I dont get the relevance because even if it was the first search result you would still say it is unfair.

I called you out a bit on your understanding of analogies so I will go into more detail I guess. With the poker book one. You comment this is a good one. Both are tools which can help you with the game. Both are tools that everyone has a chance to use. We agree so far. Then you say that these boards are unfair and poker books arent because everyone can get them, completely missing your hypocrisy.

Also I have no idea how you can claim that fantasy magazines and the various services which are out there do not help with this game. maybe it is just because there is no way you can clamor for all there removal?

Lastly if you want no one to have an advantage, how does one win?

Khahan
ID: 391582715
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:29

Hippie,

Please do one thing for me to support your argument: Find one thread or one place where somebody on this site takes any action to specifically keep people from finding out about the site or the information here.

barilko6
ID: 41336169
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:37

Sense of entitlement? I don't see that at all. I see a public forum in which ideas are shared, ideas which are then available to ALL people. Its not like this website goes out of its way to hide its forum.

As for my analogy of using a fantasy magazine, I wasn't limiting their use to the TSN game, but to fantasy sports in general. People use a variety of vehicles to give themselves an advantage in all walks of life...whether it be fantasy sports, poker, stocks, etc. Its not insider trading if the information has been made public and is available to all those who look or ask hard enough.

Sure Dave does the work to comb through these stats, but he isn't the only one who could do that, anyone can do that. He posts it here for all to read, its not his fault that his medium isn't as loud as some of the other forums or websites out there.

This argument is making less and less sense for me the longer it gets.

Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:46

Come on guys, Hippie is obviously trolling. I present as evidence the "55 million" reference in post 15. Also there is his contention that someone who knew to type "rotoguru.com" into Google would not be able to find the site (can you say "Address Bar"?).

blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:53

Stupid things posted in this thread

No I didn't confuse anything. If you were just beginning to play at TSN would you know that the data you were looking for was located at some other site. Whether it was here or at bad poets?

Yes, if you put effort into it. If you didn't put effort in, you don't deserve anything. Life isn't a free ride.

Then I must be extremely stupid. Because it never dawned to me that to find ownership numbers from TSN I would need to go to another site.

No argument here.

While you were quoting why not the part about the "contribution" to this site to see ownership numbers for basketball. That kind of puts it into the exclusive bunch doesn't it? You don't contribute you don't get the numbers. You "contribute" you get to see them.

Actually, you contribute so the person who is providing them can afford to host them. Life isn't a free ride.

Fine you can crunch the numbers and write the programs. Not everyone can. Or maybe everyone here can.

Most people here cannot write code. But they do know how to read. Are you blaming the people who write the code or who use the code? I agree; the game is much more fun when you randomly choose players rather than trying to make an informed decision.

First if TSN knew about the mining they were directly giving their product away. That just makes TSN guilty of running a fantasy site where all people don't get the same information.

Correct. I don't see even a little bit of a problem with that.

Here try this one. You go play at a poker site and you lose and lose to a few people. But you can't figure out why just some people beat you. What you don't know is that they have an added advantage. Someone is getting the value of your cards and telling a couple of your opponent. Fair or not?

If you are playing a game and people are cheating, and you continue to play, you deserve to lose.

Before TSN closed down this practice(outside mining) there was no information about ownership numbers at TSN.

That's incorrect.

Balrog have you ever heard the expression comparing apples to oranges? If you haven't and someone tells you about it someday think about your example and then try to fit it the rest of the thread.

Do you really think anyone reading this thread hasn't heard that expression? If so, that's a stupid assumption.

So maybe it wouldn't be feasible but just put a link under tools. Doesn't seem all that complicated to me but then I am not a programmer. Places have links that take you to other sites.

I agree. TSN should have more links to RotoGuru.

Here is an apples/oranges comparison. I have always loved fishing. Have been fishing for around 50 years now and have become fairly good at it.

There are a lot of things wrong with this. However, I will focus on the fact that this is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Okay now on a lighter note I remember reading somewhere on here that you should try and lock up a position at certain levels of FV. I think the first was 55 million but I can't remember the order that was mention.

It was stupid the first time. And the tenth.

Blue Hen and RSF have written wonderful programs to help people compete. So why not give people the chance to use it?

Good idea. Isn't that what we've done? Oh, and that's like saying Albert Pujols and Endy Chavez are both good baseball players.

Heh, I'm bored now. I'll stop feeding the troll.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:45

Figure I might as well weigh in here, as there are some additional points that could be made - and some historical perspective.

Back when I started playing the Smallworld games, the data presentation at the SW site was [bill_walton]horr-rr-rr-i-ble[/bill_walton]. I don't recall what they did have, but I decided that if I was going to complete, I needed data organized much better that it was otherwise available. So I imported data from multiple sources, including price data from SW and stats data from somewhere else (I believe at the time, I used Yahoo for the latter.) I blended the info together into a spreadsheet, calculated a few ratios, and sifted and sorted to meet my needs. As I began to develop RotoGuru, I extracted and published a variety of sorted data from that spreadsheet. I also created the pages of daily player details. Not elegant, but a start. Smallworld was certainly aware of my exploits - once RotoGuru was started, I even trekked down to NYC to meet with some of the people there. This led to a close working relationship, and I wrote a number of strategy articles in the early years that were published on the SW site - with links to my site as my only compensation.

Over time, a lot of information (and collection methods thereof) was refined, and the presentation formats were improved, resulting in the "sortable stats" reports that continue to exist today. I've continue to tweak those, adding new information in various sports (such as eligible game info and opposing pitcher data for baseball). I also provided a centralized set of links to other sites (RotoWire, RotoWorld, etc.), just to facilitate the ability to research players.

The Assimilator was another early invention designed to help organize and plan roster management.

Over the years, SW and TSN gradually upgraded their reporting capabilities, first with sortable stats reports that replicated much of what I already had done. They also adopted a schedule format that used the same color coding scheme (for hoops). They did so with my permission, and also provided an attributive link to RotoGuru.

I'm quite sure that many of the features at the TSN site were prompted by work I did here. Even their message board was started after I had developed a successful one here. And the current framework at their baseball site adopts some "assimilator-like" capabilities. So while it may look like I have copied a lot of the material from their site, the reverse is probably more accurate historically.

In fact, I suspect that it was the development of the Ownership data here that ultimately led TSN to decide to publish that information there. Without the efforts of Gurupies like Richard (who oldtimers will recall) and RSF (and subsequently others at the TSN forum), I doubt if TSN would be presenting that information today. So I'm also pretty sure that the development of data at RotoGuru has helped TSN improve the format of data that they currently produce.

Would I benefit from more overt links from the TSN site? It would probably increase the quantity of traffic, but not necessarily the quality. There have been a number of instances over the years when RotoGuru was highlighted at the TSN site, and some of the increased traffic that resulted was not always beneficial to the quality of the forum discussion. Consequently, I have not been avidly pushing them to provide more links. To an extent, I consider the ability of people to find me as a sort of screening process. If you are clever enough and motivated enough to find the site, welcome. But I'm more concerned about the quality of the dialogue that takes place here than I am about the quantity of posters.

TSN management continues to respect the RotoGuru site and community. They know that many (maybe most) of their hard-core customers are active users of this site, and that if they chose to throttle my site's ability to continue to provide data in RotoGuru-friendly ways, they would drive away some of their own customer base. So they have continued to be outwardly supportive of what I do.

I continue to believe that RotoGuru provides a valuable benefit to TSN, and vice versa. I know that when I post anything at the TSN forum, it attracts some resentful and belligerent responses, so I generally avoid posting over there. For that matter, I don't spend much time there at all, as the general tenor of most of the conversations isn't productive for my needs. I know that some of the resentment centered on the availability of ownership data for GuruPatrons-only at one time. TSN was aware of it, and although they asked me about it, they never asked me to stop it - even though I told them that I would honor their request if asked. So it's not as though I was doing something behind their backs.

Over the years, I've culled together data from a variety of games - some now defunct - and integrated that data into a common framework that simplified management of various salary cap games on a somewhat consistent basis. I've always done so with the explicit awareness of the target sites, and they have always been supportive of my exploits - some with direct public links to my site (e.g., Swirve and PSC), and some without. But I'm not accessing data that isn't otherwise publicly available - even though I am sometimes presenting that data in a way that isn't available at the host site - with discussion that may be qualitatively different than what's available on the host forums. To me, that's where the RotoGuru value-added comes from.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:01

BTW, I'm not done with this discussion... I just ran out of gas, and have to leave soon to run some errands. But I will follow up later with some perspective on the RotoGuru value proposition, and the financial considerations in managing a site like this. Stay tuned...

Khahan
ID: 391582715
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:06

there you have it Old Hippie, from the man himself. He figured out a way to interpret the info on the smallworld/tsn game to a distinct advantage. Rather than keeping this new data review to himself....he shared it publicly. Isn't that exactly what you are complaining should have happened?

Dave could have easily kept his secrets to himself and dominated year and year out. Instead he decided to share and make the game as whole a much more competitive one.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 15:38

Actually, contrary to Khahan’s supportive but misguided rejoinder in post 66, my decision to “give away” my data organization and strategy ideas wasn’t entirely altruistic.

First of all, when I started the site, I didn’t even realize that SW paid prizes for the game! So, if I thought I could dominate the game and collect the top prizes for myself, that wasn’t even an alternative in my decision set at the time.

Secondly, even if I was aware of the prize potential, I was hoping to develop RotoGuru into a business, and I believed that the best way to promote that business was to give away my advice and data-organization in order to attract the widest possible audience. If the advice was sound and the data worthwhile, maybe there would be an opportunity to charge for it in the future. But at the time, almost all sites were free, paid for by advertising – at rates that were unsupportable (as it turned out). So at the time, even after I learned of the prize potential, I thought that giving the site away would be financially more lucrative that trying to charge for anything.

Meanwhile, I did end up winning SW Hoops that first season, and that didn’t hurt my credibility.

The site grew from there, expanding to support for several other games as well. But it didn’t take many years before the advertising bubble burst, and not only was the prospect of meaningful advertising revenue out the window, but much of the revenues that had already been accrued turned out to be uncollectable. So at that point, I had to decide if and how to continue to financially support the site. At the time, annual operating costs were in the $6,000-7,000 range (assuming that I was willing to “work” for free), and while some sites were beginning to move to a paid subscription basis, I wasn’t convinced that the approach was optimal for RotoGuru. Instead, I decided to implement the voluntary “GuruPatron” donation program. Imagine my surprise when in that very first year of the program, voluntary donations totaled almost $10,000!

Even at that level, it represented a decrease from what I thought the site had been generating from advertising – and so I had to decide whether this could actually turn into a business, or would remain a “full time pastime”. I decided to stay the course and see what developed.

Over the ensuing years, costs generally declined, but so did revenues. Fortunately, they stayed in relative proportion, so I was always able to marginally cover costs, earning a net “profit” that equated to about 50 cents an hour for my time. So be it. I enjoyed it, and this gig offered the ancillary benefits of camaraderie and the ability to develop and maintain fantasy support tools that I would have wanted to use anyway. From time to time I tinkered with ideas to charge for certain services, or to restrict certain features to GuruPatrons only, but I seldom pursued those for anything meaningful. I thought that the RotoGuru community was generally better served by being as open as possible. And I still do.

But make no mistake – this enterprise has a cost. And although the financial cost is now less than half of its original burden, the real cost is the time I spend working on the site. For more than 11 years, I’ve spent several hours almost every single morning collecting, assembling, and producing stats for public consumption. During the rest of the day, it’s hard to know what time is spent on site duties, and what is spent on personal team management – there’s a lot of overlap – but suffice it to say that few of you would – or even could – devote the requisite hours to this, both the number of hours and the daily regularity of it. (Think of the old “Time to make the doughnuts…” commercial. That’s me, only “time to process the stats….”)

I’ve long since come to grips with the notion that RotoGuru is not a viable commercial enterprise – at least, not at the level of effort that I’m willing to expend. But I’m blessed to be financially capable of spending most of my time on something that essentially breaks even. Would I continue to do this if donations failed to cover marginal costs? I don’t know. I haven’t had to make that call yet. But if that happened because revenues were drying up, and revenues were drying up because there just weren’t that many people who found value in the site anymore, then maybe I would. In any event, I don’t think that’s an imminent decision to be made – although donations so far this year are only barely covering costs once again.

All along, I have tried to manage the site to provide something of value added. I know that much of the data and information is available elsewhere. But if I can assemble and present it in a helpful way, that’s value. If I can integrate some additional information, and perhaps some ways of interpreting data, that’s value. If I can provide a forum where people feel like they belong to a something unique and useful, that’s value. If I can introduce people to other games, and other ways of playing games, that’s value. If I can organize games and leagues that offer a more thoughtful way of participating in fantasy sports, that’s value. Not everyone will find everything to be of value. Some people (probably many) will find nothing of value. But somehow, enough people have found enough value here to voluntarily provide enough support to keep it available for themselves as well as for those who decide not to support it financially.

That said, would it be wrong or unfair if I decided to restrict some information, or some strategies, or some programming, solely to those users who would pay for it? I don’t think so. Plenty of sites take publicly available data and publish it in ways that adds value – and if there is enough value added, people are willing to pay for that presentation. There’s nothing inherently wrong or unfair with that. I pay subscriptions to other sites for information that is helpful to me in managing my various teams. Most of that information is publicly available for free, but not organized or collectable in an efficient manner. So I’m will to pay for those services. And if I produce some information that might be helpful - or provide a competitive advantage – to people who play games at other sites, then why shouldn’t it be “for sale”.

Maybe the underlying ownership data was available at the TSN site for anyone who wanted to slug through the collection process. But to do that required time, knowledge, and resources. If I – or anyone – decided to devote the necessary skills to collecting that data and presenting it in a useful way, why shouldn’t that be compensable? Sure, TSN could have provided it in a similar fashion for no extra cost, and if they had, then there would have been no reason for anyone to pay for it elsewhere. But they didn’t (until recently). And assembling and presenting that data in a useful format added value. So I don’t apologize at all for RSF’s well-intentioned initiative to produce the information and provide it only to those who were willing to ante up a modest donation. And I know that some did donate to the site just for that purpose – some for as little as $1. It wasn’t a significant revenue inducement, but it did help to highlight the concept that a lot of time, effort, and know-how is needed to produce something like that, and if no one else is producing it for free, then maybe it is worth something after all.

RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 19:50

I sure am glad to know that one of the primary beefs is a result of something I did. :)

Trying to think of what "value adds" I've done here...man its been a long trip.

Hoops ownership
Revamped/rebuilt/reconstructed the ownership spreadsheet and added additional "post" makers.
Hockey ownership - despite never playing it.
In baseball, that "how'd your team do" silly phrase creator ('My team scored 140 SWPs from 8 players') back when SWPs weren't shown until late in night. This was a fun one. Also think I did this for hoops too.
The Probable Pitchers thing. Enjoyed this one too. Should revamp it. Not sure it'd be worth doing.
Hip Check (aka RSF's Gurupatron Player Info)
Enhanced Yahoo Boxscores for Hoops

I think theres some other things, but since I don't really play the TSN stuff anymore, I'm forgetting them. Also amazed at how little "new" stuff I've work on or thought to work up. Slowly weaning from this addiction.

Seattle Zen
ID: 113541617
Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 22:43

The Probable Pitchers thing. Enjoyed this one too. Should revamp it. Not sure it'd be worth doing.

Definitely worth doing, it is a cool tool.

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 03:27

Yes can say address bar and even use it. All the posts up above were stating that the way to rotoguru.com was to google it. It didn't work with a variety of phrases I used. On a couple I got to a forum thread but it wouldn't have gotten me here to read it. Then I had tried rotoguru.com just for the fun of it. I probably still wouldn't come here as it pertained to small world and lycos games. Some maybe when you all came here long Smallworld would be enough for you. Unfortunently someone just starting wouldn't know that Smallworld = SN.

Sorry if you all think I was complaining. I wasn't ever mad of what you had compared to SN. I was mad about the unfair advantage it gave people from here. So all I wanted a couple of years ago for SN to publish it. Thought that was fair. Everyone would have the chance to use it. I didn't care if RSF set up that "contribution" as a way to help Dave out. But then paying is paying and free is free.

And honestly your tools have gone down hill a little. Slowly but surely SN will develop better and better tools. I think if he sticks around blanca will do some great things.

About the magazines I have yet to find when that pertained to how to play SN salary cap games. One year I even broke down and bought theirs. What a waste of both time and money.

Sharing the data openly is good. But not being able to find here is bad.

Dave how many new people come here each month? I see you have web bugs on some pages so that might give an idea. The web bugs are from Google Adsense and Doubleclick.

And thanks Dave for taking the time to write about this. Made for very interesting reading.

And I am very sorry to be thought of as a troll. I have always enjoyed my time here.

thanks for the fish again

Thanks Dave for the help on the computer. Windows still saying it can't update right after it has.

But I still can't get any value to work with the phrase vssadmin resize /for=c: /on=C: size=300

The string is porobably wrong this what Iremeber off the top of my head. You also need to run it at a admin prompt
That last seems to a default value and I can't get it to change to any other vaule smaller and my machine was set at 138 mb

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 03:35

Balrog there was paper printed some here about SN and what you should be doing at certain stages of FV. And 55 million was first and I think yoou went with a corner infielder, then 60 an outfielder.

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 03:42

Found it. it is under baseball then click advances
The article is entitled optimal smallword lines. I missed they start at 57 million. For as old as the article is it does make a little sense.

If this works here

http://rotoguru2.com/base/ba99-05.html

youngroman
Donor
ID: 02934823
Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 05:44

the best way to find rotoguru.com was always to look at the standings at Smallworld/TSN. that is how I found it 10 years ago.

by that time I had already started to pull the data myself. I only had no idea yet how to use that data to my advantage. I stopped this whole thinking process when I discovered RotoGuru.

I am always wondering how Dave finds the time to update this every morning. if it would be me running such a site I would try to have most of the processing on autopilot. this way I would have more time to spend on analyzing the data, than providing them.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 10:56

[70] And honestly your tools have gone down hill a little

Ummm, I do take exception to that statement. What tools have gone downhill - honestly?

I don't think any of my tools offer any less information than they ever did. In fact, they offer more.

However, I will admit that the gap between what's available here and what's available at the TSN site is narrower. So the relative advantage is less. But, as I said earlier, some of that was probably driven by TSN adopting elements from here that seemed useful.

TSN didn't always provide 7, 15, and 30 day stats. After I provided them for awhile, they eventually adopted the same splits.

TSN didn't always provide daily player histories for prices or points. I think they once provided only 10 days of history, if that. I always provide the whole season - and prior season as well.

TSN doesn't provide averages based on eligible games. Only games played.

TSN doesn't provide ratios of points to prices (I don't think).

TSN doesn't provide data on opposing starters at the team level.

TSN doesn't provide the capability to list more than 50 players at a time. I do. That may not seem like a big deal, but if you want to copy and paste the data from my report into a spreadsheet, you can get complete data quickly.

And, of course, TSN doesn't have the Assimilator.

And, especially for this season, my tools run faster and more reliably. At least, so far. (knock on wood...)

By the way, for Hoops, the relative advantage of the RotoGuru tools over TSN's is even greater. But some of the extra Hoops functionality doesn't make sense for baseball.

So please, give me an example of some tool that has honestly gone downhill?

An Old Hippie
Sustainer
ID: 02106243
Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 15:07

when I was trying the one that imports teams there were a few players missing from the data base. One was Phillies opening day starter. And I wish I would have taken that as an omen and put him missing on my line up.

Maybe it isn't the tools that went. The advice columns are really old. You can still learn from them but some of it seems dated. It is like I said when searching on Google for here. Smallworld and Lycos games were part of what of what rotoguru.com was. Seems wrong somehow.

You run a good place and a great community of people who visit here. And it is nice that through the years people have generally stayed.
Dave honestly i have never been mad at this site. I enjoy reading the forums. I do come here way more then I should. I need a better hobby.

I get a kick out of the fantasy sport wrestling. I have no idea who the wrestlers are but scoring a show and all of it is great.

And I really meant that part about helping me with my computer. It may not have fixed it completely but it helped.

But best of luck with any and all your fantasy teams. IF we ever get in a division together don't kick my butt to bad.

It was informative and thanks for the fish

Aaron
ID: 18337101
Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 16:45

Guru,

I lurk around here and post very infrequently, but I just wanted to say that I greatly appreciated the amount of time you put into this site. The data helps a lot when managing my TSN teams. Thanks for what you do!

Aaron

Go Easy
ID: 146502811
Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 18:11

Dave, I looked for a thread I started 4 years ago (you may remember) when I came back from Iraq and can't find it. I was hoping to quote it so that some people can see the real value of this site, at least to some. Have been off the boards (mostly a lurker) for awhile but am glad to be slowly getting back. I greatly appreciate this site and oh by the way.... it works rather quickly. Thanks for all the work,

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 20:57

Here it is...

Forum: basePage 19822Subject: Hey Dave! They're talking about you....

Forum: base
Page 19822
Subject: Hey Dave! They're talking about you....