Forum: base
Page 19993
Subject: McGwire Comes "Clean"

  Posted by: KrazyKoalaBears - [721308] Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 15:41
McGwire Admits Steroid Use

Mark McGwire finally came clean Monday, admitting he used steroids when he broke baseball's home run record in 1998.

McGwire said in a statement sent to The Associated Press on Monday that he used steroids on and off for nearly a decade.

"I wish I had never touched steroids," McGwire said in a statement. "It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era."

McGwire also used human growth hormone, a person close to McGwire said, speaking on condition of anonymity because McGwire didn't include that detail in his statement.

McGwire's decision to admit using steroids was prompted by his decision to become hitting coach of the St. Louis Cardinals, his final big league team. Tony La Russa, McGwire's manager in Oakland and St. Louis, has been among McGwire's biggest supporters and thinks returning to the field can restore the former slugger's reputation.

"I never knew when, but I always knew this day would come," McGwire said. "It's time for me to talk about the past and to confirm what people have suspected."
 
1KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 721308
      Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 15:44 		One of the questions I would have is should this affect his eligibility to be a hitting coach for an MLB team?

Admittedly, McGwire took steroids when there was no MLB policy, so it wasn't strictly against the rules to do so, but this certainly raises questions about his involvement with current hitters.
 
2JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 15:55 		He needed to come clean now to avoid being a distraction during spring training and the season. Now this can play out and when the season rolls around he can concentrate on trying to do his job back in baseball as a hitting coach.

I know it was the steroid era and he was not alone but I think that this revelation must be taken into consideration with HOF voters and I certainly would not fault them for holding this against him. If I was a voter, I'd have to think hard about it now and would probably lean against. That said, I still would warmly welcome him back into baseball.

I also think however, his records should stand (asterisk free), as should the records of Bond's, Clemens' and anyone else's record among steroid users. Whether there is a physical asterisk or not, any time someone comes up close to those marks and they are discussed, someone will always mention the steroid disclaimer anyway.

I do not think baseball should take any further action against McGwire, same as it did for ARod, Poppy, and other active players who admitted to various degrees of use.
 
3ChicagoTRS
      ID: 550421116
      Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 17:42 		I think this increases McGwires hall of fame changes...would not be surprised to see his percentage go up next season. Most voters were holding the steroids against him already. Now that he has come out and admitted some may be willing to forgive.

Everyone was using during that era...it was a problem in baseball from the commissioner down...not that Selig was using(lol) but everyone knew the players were using. A player being honest and admitting use makes me think a lot more positively of the player.
 
4Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 22:01 		Not everyone was using that era - that is completely unsubstantiated.

Also, why should McGwire's status for the Hall change? Here's a guy who just admitted that he used and needed steroids to overcome injuries and become the player that he was in the last 6-7 years of his career. The guy hit 200 homers in 3 years in the years after he admitted to juicing, by far the most prolific home run tear of all-time. Where would he have been without the juice? Either out of baseball or hitting 20 homers a year.
 
5Donny
      ID: 71136229
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 01:07 		If McGwire can get in the Hall, certainly it's time for Pete Rose as well.
 
6Slizz
      ID: 341022514
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:09 		considering that the bulk of his HOF resume was enhanced by Steroids I would never vote for him.

McGwire Stats

While I commend him for finally coming clean, he has no place in the HOF as the bulk of his resume deemed HOF worthy (94-00) was when he was juicing.

Should he get in, that would set horrible precedent for the Hall. I hope they uphold their high standards.

 
7Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:24 		Should he get in, that would set horrible precedent for the Hall.

what horrible precedent? allowing guys in the Hall who didn't violate any rules of baseball?

for better or for worse, the Steroid Era is a part of baseball history. it happened, and we can't change it.

by all likelihood, a majority of players were on Steroids. It wasn't against the rules at the time, and quite frankly, helped save baseball. It made it exciting to watch at a time when baseball was really losing ground to other professional sports.

i although thing the steroid issue is considerably less scandalous than other issues in other sports, such as the damage that ignored concussions and head injuries (not to mention the simple wear and tear of playing every sunday) does to NFL players.

You've got guys in their 40s who are using walkers, who are showing signs of brain damage, and so on. maybe we should go back and re-visit tackling in football? that's a helluva lot more dangerous than steroids imho.
 
8Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:41 		In the case of Barry Bonds, theres a strong argument that he was on the cusp of qualifying for the HOF before he supposedly started juicing. You might make a similar argument with Alex Rodriguez; that he's still among the game's top players when clean. Maybe Roger Clemens fits that category, too.

But I can't help but wonder what Dave Kingman's career stats might have looked like if he took steroids on and off for a decade through the heart of his career. Might look a lot like Mark McGwire's, huh? Are you so sure that Big Mac would have been any more than a modern Dave Kingman if he'd stayed clean?
 
9Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 09:11 		As was pointed out elsewhere: McGwire claims he juiced because of the steroids era. But McGwire was the steroids era.
 
10Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 09:29 		But I can't help but wonder what Dave Kingman's career stats might have looked like if he took steroids on and off for a decade through the heart of his career.

that's probably a poor example. I'm not sure if 'roids help with hand-eye coordination, and Kingman's OBP was atrocious. he had one full season where is OBP was *above* .330. It wasn't until McGwire's final season that he had an OBP below .330.
 
11Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 09:47 		Good point, tree. McGwire was always a great hitter, but when he became home run focused his game really changed. That last season of his seemed to typify it for me. 29 dingers in 97 games, but a .118 BA, 56 BB with 118 Ks.

I know his back was hurting, but at the end he was just trying to hit every ball out.
 
12Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 09:53 		not that's it's good excuse, but i can see how he would use steroids for their "healing" properties, as opposed to their "enhancement" properties.

the difference, i suppose, is that the enhancement was a by-product as opposed to a purpose, but the results are the same, and to those who think he was wrong, the reasons why matter little.
 
13Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 09:53 		I'll admit that I've only heard soundbites of his speech, but it rings hollow to me. It sounds like a guy who's ego wants to get into the HoF and this is a step needed to do that.

If he was serious about regretting what he did, how about donating a serious percentage of his career earnings to a steroid-prevention charity. He would have made a fraction of the money that he did, if he hadn't used in my opinion.

Until then, he didn't have a problem with the means justifying the ends, until he didn't get the ending he wanted.
 
14Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 10:06 		McGwire and other juicers love to make the argument that steroids did not help them hit a baseball or become the great players they were. I would not argue that steroids improve hand-to-eye coordination, but there is no question that improves bat speed. An improvement in bat speed has enormous effects, allowing the ball to be hit harder (more base hits) and farther (more power). Further, with faster bat speed, hitters have can wait on pitches longer and will have an improved ability to recognize both pitch type and location. A guy who is suddenly less vulnerable to having a fastball blown by him will be able to sit on breaking balls and feast on those left in the zone. If you want a perfect example of this, look no further than Barry Bonds. For his entire non-juiced career, he was vulnerable to lefties, especially those who could jam him high and tight. Randy Johnson completely and totally owned him for the first 10 years of his career. Once Bonds started juicing, he very nearly could not be beaten by a fastball anywhere in the zone and showed no discernible vulnerabilities to any type of pitch or pitcher. The impact of steroids should not and cannot be understated.

I would also add that even before steroid punishment began, steroid usage in the Majors was measured at under 10%. Whether or not you want to dispute the efficacy of these tests is another matter, but there is no substantial evidence that steroid usage was anywhere near a majority, as been has passed off as fact in this thread on more than one occasion.
 
15Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 10:24 		So Mark McGwire admitted to doing what we already know he was doing (and not 'know he's doing it the way we know Bonds was doing it). We've known McGwire has been doing roids since Andro was found in his locker.

I said the andro thing was not a big deal then and its not a big deal now.

But McGwire only admitted to 'using steroids.' So what? Has he admitted to using illegal steroids? Has he admitted to using HGH or a substance while it was banned?

Until he does, this is completely a non-story.

"Mr. McGwire, do you know or have you ever known if the sky is blue?"

"I'm not here to talk about the sky color."


5 years later, "you know what..the sky is blue."

So what?
 
16Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 10:42 		Re: 15

I hate that argument. What steroids are legal in the US with out a doctor's prescription? And aren't the moral prescriptions for people with genetic growth defects, not athletes who want to perform better?
 
17Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 11:07 		The Andro thing was likely a cover. Get "caught" using a (then) legal steroid, then swear it off and look like the good guy. Throw the media off the scent.
 
18Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 11:08 		Tree 10:
Kingman's OBP was atrocious

That's one of the arguments commonly used against Jim Rice for the HOF. Rice and Kingman played in a different era, when walks and OBP were not so highly regarded as they've been since the 90s.

I'm not sure if 'roids help with hand-eye coordination

Steroids help make you stronger. That helps you with bat control. Further, the more dangerous a hitter you are, the further pitchers will trend from the strike zone. Are you ready to claim that Bonds' OBP and walk rate were not impacted after he started juicing?

p.s. Take another look at Mac's career stats, particularly the sudden jump in his OBP totals in the early 90s. Through 1991 his ba/obp averages were .245 and .353. The rest of his career were .277 and .424.

If you insist on an example other than Kingman, use Dale Murphy or Frank Howard. The greater point is that you can't make the same strong argument that Mac is a HOFer without juice that you can with Bonds.
 
19Great One
      ID: 46051211
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 12:05 		Bonds was a HOFer before the roids, McGwire can't make that same case.
 
20Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 12:07 		#16: Frick...andro was a banned substance at the time McGwire was using it. When it happened, it was in his locker and a reported spotted it during a post game interview. Thats all there is to it that we know.

So what did McGwire tell us new?
 
21Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 12:20 		andro was a banned substance at the time McGwire was using it.

That's not true. Andro was an OTC drug and was not banned by MLB at the time, and wasn't even classified as a steroid until 2004.
 
22clv
      Sustainer
      ID: 5911351713
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 13:01 		So what did McGwire tell us new?


He actually did admit to Costas last night that he had used HGH. Said he "tried" it once or twice.
 
23Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 13:04 		So even though he admitted to steroids, he added caveats. This just adds to my doubt about the reasons why he finally admitted.
 
24Great One
      ID: 46051211
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 13:11 		Yeah wasn't he even doing commercials for Andro and wearing their hats and stuff? like the Broncos for EAS? maybe it was just creatine.
 
25Great One
      ID: 46051211
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 13:11 		funny article from back then SI article on Big Mac from 1998
 
26Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 14:55 		21, PD, that was a typo on my part. Meant to say that andro was not banned. Obviously my statement in 20, the way its written, contradicts the whole point I'm trying to make.

As for the HGH revelation, ok. He's come out with new info. He has not admitted to illegal steroids before. Bit of a bigger deal with that revelation.
 
27Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 15:42 		Just now on CNN they interviewd a sports sociologist named Dr. Harry Edwards who suggested that a result of the steroid era will be that records such as Bonds' and McGwire's HR records will be seperated from our standards for excellence. Broken records and statistical thresholds might no longer be the same type of qualifiers for HOF candidacy, and that a productive career free of PED scandal might be a new prominant standard.
 
28ChicagoTRS
      ID: 550421116
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 17:19 		imo no chance for HOF for McGwire. Steroids certainly aided his career significantly. I think there is a very good chance McGwire was on some form of steroids from his rookie year on...Oakland was definitely on the forefront of steroid use in MLB. He will gain some votes from people willing to forgive and lose some votes from those feeling betrayed. Others will cross him off the list now that he has admitted. I hate the "I used them to recover from injury" excuse...very false to me. Just come out and tell the truth...you used them to hit the ball farther and aid workouts.

The big tests for the hall will be Clemens and Bonds. Both first ballot hall of famers probably before they even started down the steroid path. I think the steroids will probably keep them out.
 
29ChicagoTRS
      ID: 550421116
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 17:45 		I am not sure why people think steroids were not banned in baseball before 2002?

The 1991 Fay Vincent memo specifically banned steroids.
"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids."
Bud Selig sent the same memo in 1997.

There was no documented punishment or random testing but steroids have been banned from baseball since 1991.

Personally I believe during the height of the steroid era 97-01 a good amount of the league was on steroids. Just because it tested at ~10% in 2002 in a test that players were forewarned about and steroid use was already starting to hit the spotlight, many players were already probably off. I think it is naive to think that a good part of the league was not on steroids...

If you listen to stories from the few players who have talked they have admitted as much. MLB doctors were advising players on what to take and not to take and how to take them safely. Look up Dr Millman and Dr Solomon...MLB doctors who were advising players how to best take steroids. Info on this was also in the Mitchell report.

1998 Winter Meetings

MLB Doctors

 
30Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 17:58 		What bothered me most about McGwire's admission was that he took a great deal of energy in trying to defend that he didn't need steroids to hit home runs. That he felt so compelled to TRY to protect his legacy as a ballplayer (steroids don't help hand-eye coordination, I didn't take steroids for strength purposes, etc) really took away from (at least from my perspective) what was an attempt at a contrite apology. Instead, he sounds self-serving and really hollow.

With this BS, you just stick to the basics:

- Say that you did it
- Say why, if you feel compelled to
- Say when you did it
- Admit you were wrong to do it
- Apologize sincerely

.....anything after that is subject to the old saying (paraphrasing - I'm sure the old addage is something different):

"Best to leave your mouth shut and be thought a fool......than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

Baseball, the media and the fans will judge you no matter how much you try to defend your actions. People have long forgotten about Giambi and Pettitte (to name two) because they stuck to the basics (even less so in Giambi's case) and didn't try to defend it. The rest of the cheaters need to take a freakin' clue!
 
31Slizz
      ID: 341022514
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 18:28 		Tree - there is something called integrity, and McGwire doesn't have it. He cheated his peers and the game itself, which is much bigger than the records he set while he played.

what horrible precedent? allowing guys in the Hall who didn't violate any rules of baseball?

Cheating on your significant other isn't illegal either, but its still wrong. Just like what McGwire did to the game.

If were going to play the "it wasn't against the rules" type scenarios, I could go all day with examples...lol.

However, I do agree with your contention that: for better or for worse, the Steroid Era is a part of baseball history. it happened, and we can't change it.

While we might not be able to change it, I can only hope that the HOF voters who protect what is right about the game (i.e. The Cal Ripkens, Tony Gwynns, Hank Aarons, Greg Maddux', etc. Guys who did it right) see it that way as well.

 
32Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:42 		I feel comfortable asserting that there is more than one player currently in the HOF who took steroids, they simply avoided any suspicion.
 
33Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:42 		I'm going to bring up guys like Ty Cobb, Fergie Jenkins, and Gaylord Perry anytime someone wants to talk about Hall of Famers and "integrity".

Cobb beat up women. He beat up handicapped men. He physically assaulted fans. He choked out an umpire. He slapped a black elevator operator, called him "uppity", and then stabbed a black security guard who tried to intervene.

Jenkins was busted with coke, hash, and weed, while an active player. That didn't prevent him from getting into the HOF.

Perry doctored the ball with all manner of foreign substances on his way to the Hall of Fame.

The Hall of Fame isn't about integrity. And if it becomes that, you can start by throwing guys lie Cobb, Jenkins, and Perry out.

The Hall of Fame is about supremacy on the baseball field, and as long as players were playing within the rules - no matter how unethical their tactics were - those supreme players should be elected into the Hall of Fame.

 
34Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:56 		I think this shows how great a pitcher Greg Maddux was. To consistently pitch as well as he did during "steroid age", speeks volumns for him. (Plus the umpires giving him 3 inches off the plate-lol).
 
35Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:57 		33-I totally agree. Good post.
 
36Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 20:14 		The HoF is certainly about integrity. Baseball integrity.

Gambling on baseball and steroids are qualitatively different than pretty much everything else you can name: They bring into question the level playing field, upon which talent is suppose to reign supreme. If a fan can't know whether a guy is tossing a game because of his betting, or took banned drugs to gain an unnatural physical advantage, then the game integrity is called into question.

Please note that I say nothing about player integrity. So please don't respond by answering the wrong question.

I do agree with this: and as long as players were playing within the rules - no matter how unethical their tactics were - those supreme players should be elected into the Hall of Fame.

Which is why Rose, McGwire, Canseco, etc should never be elected to the Hall.
 
37Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 20:23 		Ty Cobb beat up umpires. Gaylord Perry doctored the baseball.

Neither of those facts can be questioned, and both bring into question their baseball integrity.
 
38Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 20:59 		So if the Hall has made some mistakes in the past, it's okay to make some more? Is that your argument?

Steroids were against the rules. They were cheating. They do dramatically affect the performance of players, so much so that they can take a guy who was on the brink of retirement and allow him to shatter a record that stood for 40 years.
 
39Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 21:13 		So if the Hall has made some mistakes in the past, it's okay to make some more? Is that your argument?

nope, that's not my argument at all. I don't feel that any of those other players being elected were mistakes.

Steroids were against the rules.

Until 2005, players weren't even named, nor suspended. Perhaps against the rules, but if there isn't a serious punishment, what's the point.

prior to 2005, it wasn't even a slap on the wrist, and players who used before then, shouldn't be punished in regards to the HOF.

 
40Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 21:25 		Saying that McGwire took steroids his whole career or that Bonds and Clemens were HoFs before they started juicing is as much speculation as anything else. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to cross off any names as people who definitely did not use steroids. I think it's safe to assume that several players never got caught using steroids and will go on to have HoF careers. Is it fair that these players will be elected (or have already been elected) for the reason that they were just never caught?
 
41Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 22:52 		Tree-What about spitting on an umpire. alomar. When the players went on strike in 81, I think, when they came back to play, each team played 2 practice games. The pirates played the indians in a home and home series. I umpired 2nd base in the Pittsburgh game. The Indians had a player named Joe Charbeneau(spelling). Around the fifth inning he was at bat and he was called out on strikes, he turned to go back to the dugout and the umpire turned to the other direction, all of a sudden Charbeneau turned took a step towards the umpire and spit on him. Then turned back to the dugout. It was easy for me to see because from where I was the glare of the lights illuminated the spit. I started laughing to my self. The home plate umpire never knew it umtil I told him after the game. I know Alomar and Hirshbeck have become good freinds and Alomar has helped Hirshbeck on a charity for Hirshbecks son, who is mentally disabled.
 
42Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 22:57 		Spitting on an ump. certainly offensive, but preventing a guy from making the HoF? nah.

as for Joe Charboneau, of course i remember him. AL ROY, 1980, had a song written about him (Go, Joe, Charboneau), and was out of the Majors within 2 years.
 
43Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 23:07 		What about spitting on an umpire. alomar

I think the fact that Alomar and the ump became good friends completely wipes out the spitting incident.

Charboneau was a folk hero in Cleveland. He played a short time, but I bet he never has to pay for a meal in Cleveland the rest of his life.
 
44Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 23:22 		Pretty sure Perry would have still been a pretty dominant pitcher even if he never doctored a ball. Might have gooten out of a few fewer jams, but essentially the same pitcher. I have no doubt that Ty Cobb would have been just as dominant if he never beat up any women. Take away Mac's steroids, and I'm not so sure at all that what's left is a HOFer.

This is a new opinion of mine, but for now I think that's my standard. If I were a voting member of BBWA, I could vote for Bonds, ARod and Clemens, knowing what we do. Not McGwire.
 
45ChicagoTRS
      ID: 1550160
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 23:28 		Very likely there are already players in the hall who used steroids. In fact one of the players listed in this thread as doing it right had some pretty suspect years late in his career and was the lead player on a team full of players identified as steroid users.

Just because some players got away with cheating does not mean the known cheaters should be absolved. Guess that is the chance they took when they cheated. Will be interesting to see what will happen if a player already in the hall gets identified as a user.

I still mostly blame baseball and the players union...everyone was in on the crime committed against the game. No one did anything to stop it...they just lined their pockets and closed their eyes. I really despise the unwillingness for people to come clean on the subject.
 
46Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 00:03 		The standard that we should just shrug our shoulders 5 years after a known PED user retires and vote for his induction based on the same standards as everyone else sends the worst possible message to the next generation of athletes wrestling with that choice for themselves; that if illegal PEDs make enough of a difference in your performance, not only might it be totally worth it, in the long run it doesn't even matter if you get caught once or twice. Stigma is a terrific incentive to stay clean.
 
47Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:10 		I still mostly blame baseball and the players union...everyone was in on the crime committed against the game. No one did anything to stop it...they just lined their pockets and closed their eyes.

This. and add in the owners, trainers, managers, and quite probably a good deal of the people involved with professional baseball at many levels.

Bumping an umpire got a harsher punishment than steroids. Kicking dirt over home plate to "show up" the umpire got a harsher punishment.

i am not willing to throw players like McGwire under the bus when they were doing the same thing many others were, that most folks inside of baseball were aware of, and that everyone turned a blind eye toward.

They're all guilty of the same thing, and unless you're gonna punish the whole lot of them, I don't see how you can hang a few out to dry.

Take away Mac's steroids, and I'm not so sure at all that what's left is a HOFer.

before his 29th birthday, before two-injury plagued seasons, McGwire had 220 home runs in 6 full seasons.

In fact one of the players listed in this thread as doing it right had some pretty suspect years late in his career and was the lead player on a team full of players identified as steroid users.

i wonder if the baseball world will implode and cease to be if it ever comes out that "beloved" players like Cal Ripken or Nolan Ryan used 'roids. Considering when they played, and what they accomplished, i'm surprised there is not more suspicion on them. Then again, considering how MLB treated steroids for more than a decade, I would imagine it's easier to sacrifice guys lie McGwire, Sosa, and Canseco than it is near-gods like Ripken and Ryan.



 
48Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:33 		Ya, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Manny, Pettite and Bonds never had revered status. MLB only sacrifices those that are expendable. Clearly.

Your argument now seems to be since testing was not in place and is not perfect, we shouldn't punish anyone, even those who were caught/admitted to it. What other crimes should we extend this to?

MITH's last post was the most salient point in this thread. McGwire got zero punishment while playing for breaking the rules. And if he's let in the Hall, he'll have gotten zero punishment after admitting to cheating, to prolonging his career superficially, and to enhancing his numbers to the point of being mentioned with guys like Frank Robinson and Willie Mays.
 
49Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:49 		But this was the culture of baseball. David Wells speculated that up to 40% of players were on steroids. Canseco estimated at 85%.

And if you are going to leave out McGwire, then it would be totally contradictory to let in Bonds, Clemens, or Arod.

 
50Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:52 		I think those numbers are pretty high--at least, they don't match the actual testing percentages. I suspect that Wells & Canseco are going by clubhouse rumors.

I would think, however, that the power hitter juice percentage is probably much higher than the rest of MLB. They should save some time and just test the #4 hitters.
 
51Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 11:08 		McGwire got zero punishment while playing for breaking the rules.

he's got plenty of punishment. a tarnished reputation.

if you want to start punishing people retroactively, then stop being selective. Expunge the stats of Clemens, Sosa, and other retired players. Suspend A-Rod and other active players for life.

it's the unevenness that bothers me.
 
52Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 11:26 		None of Clemens, Sosa, A-Rod, etc are eligible for the Hall. We're talking about Hall of Fame entry here. They'll get theirs when the time comes, presumably, especially those who, like McGwire, who enhanced to get to a Hall of Fame level.
 
53Mith
      ID: 159201318
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 12:35 		before his 29th birthday, before two-injury plagued seasons, McGwire had 220 home runs in 6 full seasons.

Yeah, with a batting average under .250. That's what a guy on his way to the HOF looks like? Were you talking about Cecil Fielder's future induction after his first 6 full seasons, in which he hit 219 HR with a .259 ba? Roger Maris had 200 with a .264 average in his first 6 full seasons. Not a Hall of Famer. You're reaching, Tree.
 
54Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 12:58 		Razor McGwire got zero punishment while playing for breaking the rules.

Stepping back in time before the admittance, before the grand jury and before his retirement, all the way back to his playing days, what rule did he break that he should be punished for?

At the time, andro was the only ped we knew he was on. And andro was not illegal under any state or federal drug laws and it was not on the banned substance list by baseball.

So what rule did he break? I'm not even sure why people are harping on what did not happen during his playing career based on what we knew at the time. There was nothing to do.


IMHO, people need to move past the whole steroid era at this point. Better testing is in place, stricter testing is in place, harsher punishments are in place. Its time to move on. Players in the 90's gamed the system because the risk was well worth the reward. That has changed. And it should keep changing and evolving. To me, the penalties still aren't strict enough.

We should learn from the mistakes of the 90's and move on. Not keep harping on people and get stuck in baseball purgatory.

I agree with the first 4 paragraphs from tree in post 47, 100%. Not gonna throw anybody under the bus. Punish them according to how the rules were back then, if they can still be applied. If not, call it a statute of limitations and move on.


If you want to withold a HoF vote, that is a personal choice for each voter to do.

But people really need to remember that this is now 2010. In 1 month the 2010 baseball season will begin. Not the 2001 baseball season.
 
55Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 13:22 		pretty much how i feel on the topic...

One has to assume that Canseco -- if indeed he is telling the truth -- is referring to a former teammate. Otherwise how would he know for sure? For the record, Canseco played with seven players who went on to be inducted to the Hall of Fame: Nolan Ryan, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Reggie Jackson, Don Sutton, Dennis Eckersley and, um, Goose Gossage.

Question: if it is one day determined that one of those gentlemen -- or any other Hall of Famer -- did steroids like Canseco says, what then?

 
56Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 13:36 		So what rule did he break?

Ha. The one where steroids were illegal, both in US law and in MLB.
 
57Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 13:50 		Razor, MLB maintained 2 drug policies at the time McGwire was playing:

1) Fay Vincents mandate as posted above about illegal drugs including illegal steroids.

2) A specific banned substance list.

Andro was not an illegal substance until 2004. It was able to be purchased over the counter until that time. It was not considered a controlled substance until 2005.

So, what law or rule did McGwire break in the late 1990's by using andro that he should be punished for?
 
58Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 14:00 		#57, I should also add that Andro was not on baseball's banned substance list at that time. I'm not sure of the exact date it wsa added, but it was not on when McGwire was found with it.
 
59barilko6
      ID: 100321314
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 15:32 		Khahan...If steroids are illegal by US law, does it need to be explicitly stated within that they are illegal within the MLB rules as well?

I am pretty sure baseball doesn't have a rule against someone killing another player on the field, yet for some reason I am assuming it would be frowned upon by the front office.
 
60Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 15:35 		barilko, the FDA declared andro to be a steroid only in 2004. Previous to that it was an OTC (over-the-counter) drug.

 
61barilko6
      ID: 100321314
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 15:40 		Ah ok that would make more sense then. Has McGwire ever admitted to or been proven to use anything besides Andro then?
 
62ChicagoTRS
      ID: 550421116
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 17:28 		uhhh...McGwire just admitted to using steroids in 89 and then started again in 93 and continued throughout the remainder of his career.

McGwire did not specifically state which steroids he used except he did try HGH...I think we can assume he used illegal steroids or there is no reason to come out with this admission of use.

Andro is a non-issue...non-story...at the time it was legal otc and not banned. No issues with him using andro then...since then it has been made illegal. Since he first started using in steroids in 89 we can safely assume it was not andro as andro was not a product yet. Seems obvious from his admission that he used illegal steroids during his career...I am sure the regulars deca durabolin...testosterone...he was injecting...
 
63barilko6
      ID: 100321314
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 18:10 		Well that is what I was trying to get at in post 59, but after Perm Dude's post, I thought maybe I was mistaken with the way I read/heard his confession.

 
65ChicagoTRS
      ID: 1550160
      Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 17:41 		Jack Clark's take on Mark McGwire

 
66ChicagoTRS
      ID: 1550160
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:17 		Carlton Fisk's takes on steroids...
 
67ChicagoTRS
      ID: 1550160
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:25 		Goose Gossage's take on steroids...
 
68Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 21:59 		Fisk said what we were all thinking and what all clean players should be saying. The lack of criticism from fellow players is a mystery to me. If I were a clean player, I'd be furious that some cheater like Bonds was juiced so much that I couldn't pitch to him at all.
 
69Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 22:38 		Fisk said what we were all thinking and what all clean players should be saying.

Speak for yourself, Razor. Not everyone agrees with you.
 
70ChicagoTRS
      ID: 550421116
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:00 		I think this Fisk quote sums it up pretty nicely:

"You don't blame people for not ratting them out; you blame the people who abused the pharmaceutical world," Fisk said. "It's not like you are taking a couple of aspirin and you don't know what's going on. (Non-prescription steroid use has been) a federal offense for a long time, regardless of whether baseball was recognizing it and putting rules into place. The people who did it … they were breaking the law to start with. It doesn't have to be a baseball law. They knew what they were doing and the reason they were doing it. Now they are sorry because they are getting called out."
 
71DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:24 		A nice rebuttal to Fisk
 
72ChicagoTRS
      ID: 550421116
      Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:28 		ok rebuttal...yes there are a lot of reasons there are increased HRs...but still seems PEDs were the main contributing factor.

and...we do not know how prevalent PED use still is in MLB...players are not being tested for HGH and that seems to be a possible contributing factor in players not deteriorating as they age...maintaining strength/health.
 
73Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 13:23 		As if McGwire's contention that he only took steroids to stay healthy wasn't ludicrous enough on its face, we now have his dealer calling McGwire a liar. Sorry Mac, you did the crime, now enjoy the time. The Hall won't miss you.
 
74Tree, on lunch
      ID: 140472012
      Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 13:39 		wow. So lying about it makes it an even worse offense?

the HoF is full of miscreants, scumbags, and liars.

Heck, even Fergie Jenkins - you know, the guy busted with coke and is in the HoF, came down hard against McGwire the other day, saying it cost pitchers their careers because of what he did.

maybe we oughta go ahead and dump any records set prior to Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier, and dump all those guys from the HoF too. after all, they had an unfair advantage by not playing against the best players.
 
75Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 17:42 		I still want to know when people will quit harping on this and start moving on. Or is this just a Dec/Jan thing when there isn't any other baseball news?

Seriously, its not that we condone it. But baseball really needs to move forward. 2010 is around the corner. We are weeks away from 'pitchers and catchers report.'

Lets focus on what counts here. Make sure the 2010 season is cleaner (from a PED perspective since that is what is relevant to this thread) than 2009. They tried to make sure that 2009 was cleaner than 2008 was cleaner than 2007 etc.

When we find an cheater now, punish him accordingly - harshly and quickly.

But until we are going treat the amphetamines, coke users, ball scuffers etc the same as we are treating the ped users I say let it go. Move on.
 
76Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 19:08 		You are saying "move on" like steroid abusers aren't currently eligible for Hall of Fame voting. The lion's share of the cheating may have occurred in the distant past, but the repercussions are still being hashed out.

Also, if you can point out one ball scuffer or sign stealer whose numbers were as affected as known steroid users' numbers were, I'd like to see it. Anecdotal evidence would be fine. You won't find any, so let's not try and pretend they are the same degree of cheating. Steroids involve more deceit and had a far greater impact on the game.
 
77Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 22:35 		so let's not try and pretend they are the same degree of cheating. Steroids involve more deceit and had a far greater impact on the game.

1. cheating is cheating.

2. you're wrong on Steroids involving more deceit. for much of time time, steriod usage resulted in even less of a punishment than scuffing the ball. there was little in the rules banning it, unlike scuffing the balls.

no one wanted to get caught scuffing the ball, because you got suspended. if you got caught using steroids, you got...um...a pat on the back from your manager?
 
78Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 11:06 		Razor, imho, its more fair to say that steroids involved more deceit to the fans and had a greater impact on the fans.

Fans are betrayed. Fans are hurt. Fans are unhappy.

Personally, I'm tired of being hurt, betrayed and unhappy. I want Selig & Co to make sure this doesn't happen again. But I also want to stop being betrayed and hurt by people that were idols of my youth. I want to move on and find new idols.