Forum: base
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Subject: 2010 Yankees Off Season Thread

  Posted by: Seattle Zen - Leader [055343019] Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 11:36
But for the 8th inning of game one, this thread would have been timely last night. Instead, it's T-minus 7-8 hours until we can talk about their desire to sign Carl Crawford.
 
1Da Bomb
      ID: 508161517
      Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 15:24 		Cliff Lee should be the top target.

Not surprising this thread is started by a Twins fan...
 
2Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 15:28 		Little early to start this thread.

And Cliff Lee will be handed a blank check at midnight on the day FA starts. And they'll be a boat and a plane in his name waiting outside. Maybe even a Brinks truck full of cash sitting outside as well.
 
3Great One
      ID: 2751238
      Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 15:46 		Yeah, I hope it doesn't jinx anything (says Red Sox fan GO). I didn't want to post til I saw the Ginger Ale being sprayed everywhere in the Texas clubhouse.
 
4Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 03:40 		and he's still going to come back to Texas. a Franchise on the rise, not one on the decline.
 
5Da Bomb
      ID: 508161517
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 12:25 		Right, because going from winning the world series one year to losing in the ALCS the next definitely defines a decline.
 
6Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 12:37 		Heh. I think they are getting old, however. Will Mo even be around next year? He's 40 and a FA next season.

They've got Cano and Phil Hughes. Everyone else of any skill will be 30+ next year.
 
7Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 13:51 		Yankees are a year to year team, sign the highest contracts and hope for team chemistry. Didn't work this year. Losing Matsui and Daman was huge. How many times did they get clutch hits last year? This year, they couldn't. The team seemed to have no character.
 
8Da Bomb
      ID: 508161517
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 14:07 		Do you actually think the lack of presence of Damon and Matsui was the difference between winning the world series and not? Damon had a terrible year, it turned out to be a very good decision to not resign him as Gardner played very well throughout the year. And apparently this team had no character, but if they had won 6 more games they would have? You guys are almost expecting more out of them than Steinbrenner did.
 
9Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 14:10 		Right, because going from winning the world series one year to losing in the ALCS the next definitely defines a decline.

Rivera, Jeter, Pettite, and Girardi all have expiring contracts.

they have THIRTEEN guys on their roster older than 30 - eight of those are 33 are older.

they were utterly destroyed by Texas. out-hit by over 100 points. out-scored 38 runs to 19. and the yankee pitching? oy. that 65 million dollar rotation - more than the entire Ranger payroll - stank up the joint...
 
10Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 14:29 		It wasn't just that they lost the series--they also won 8 fewer games this year, which gave them a tougher draw in the playoffs.

Yeah, they can re-tool, as always, and become like the New York Mercenaries of old. But that's the only way they will compete next year.
 
11Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 14:47 		How many times did I hear how they weren't producing with 2 outs? They didn't seem to replace the clutch hits that those two had last year in the WS run. That is what I mean by no character, no one really seemed scary other than Cano on the team. A-Rod regressed to what he really is, a tin man also. Throw money at all the free agents, but how many times has that bite them in the butt?
 
12Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 14:49 		Tougher draw? Minnesota, swept in three. And the Rangers had their number all year, that is why they didn't win more games. They are who we thought they were.
 
13Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 21:52 		There are two types of sports fans. Those who can celebrate a victory with a shred of grace and those who revel in running down the other team after they've been beaten.

THIRTEEN guys on their roster older than 30 - eight of those are 33 are older

30 is a silly measure (all caps, really?). Maybe somewhat reasonable prior to free agency, but between the Yankees' assets and improved player longevity in the modern era, I fail to see the point in citing players in the middle-prime of their careers to argue a team is in it's decline.

Anyway, players 30 or older on the 1996 Yankees included 4 starting pitchers and 9 hitters with over 200ab - 13 total. Does anyone think the 1996 Yeankees were a team "on the decline"?

The 2010 team had 3 starting pitchers, the closer and 5 hitters with 200 ab or more - 9 total - who were 30 or older. Of them, 7 are 33 or older.

They've got Cano and Phil Hughes. Everyone else of any skill will be 30+ next year.

I don't understand this fascination with 30. And I really don't think you believe the ages of Sabathia, Teixeira and Granderson are suddenly problematic. And while you might disagree, I tend to think it reasonable to add Bret Gardner and Joba Chamberlain to the list of players under 30 "of any skill".

Of the 5 aging core players (Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada and ARod) the only one who might be approaching liability status due to his age is Jorge Posada. Fortunately, farm product Francisco Cervelli has proven himself a fine defensive catcher and looks like an adequate bottom of the order hitter (.274 career avg in 423ab with no power). He should help ease the transition from Posada to Jesus Montero (#19 on mlb.com's top 50 prospect list from January, projected thumper and and probably getting a shot this spring). And if his surly pride doesn't get in the way, Posada might have a couple of years as a pretty decent primary DH in him.
 
14Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 23:19 		those who revel in running down the other team...

Yes, saying that the Yankees are getting old is "reveling in knocking them down."

Not.

There are two kinds of sports fans: Those who overstate criticism against their team by non-fans of that team. And those who can't do so because they are dead. So I'll give you a pass for your over-reacting to calling the Yankees old (even though, frankly, they are).
 
15Da Bomb
      ID: 508161517
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 00:50 		That link means almost nothing PD. Phillies have the oldest team while many thought they were favorites at the beginning of the playoffs. Giants are number 4 too.
 
16Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 01:07 		It means they are old, DB. They would probably be the oldest team if Jamie Moyer wasn't still with the Phils.

 
17Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 10:13 		At best, it is intelectually lazy to cite age as evidence of a team being in decline after a two year period in which they replaced Bobby Abreau, Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon and Jose Molina with CC Sabathia, Curtis Granderson, Nick Swisher, Phil Hughes, Mark Teixeira and Francisco Cervelli. Especially when most of the aging players who return are still able to perform at a high level.

And for the record, Moyer isn't included on the Phillies 40 man roster in that link. He's on the 60 day dl and the oldest player is listed as 38.
 
18Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 10:55 		Regarding the notion that they must retool ("mercenary style") to remain compeitive (since that's probably the closest we'll get to an objective segue into looking at their offseason possibilities)...

It'll be interesting to see if they keep Swisher. He's put up fine numbers, has endeared himself to the clubhouse and fans and seems to love playing here. But his defense is pretty mediocre, his contract is up and the Yankees have seemed interested in free agent OFs Carl Crawford and Jayson Werth. Otherwise the lineup seems pretty set, the big question being whether Jesus Montero can win a roster spot in the spring.

If they don't sign Lee, I'm not sure there is another SP out there that really interests them. But there are some issues with the rotation. Pettitte might retire, which would likely force their hand. Burnett needs a straight jacket, but I think they saw enough from him in 2009 to secure his 3rd year. Vazquez surely won't return but I think Ivan Nova will be given every opportunity to win the 5th starter job if Pettitte or Lee is in pinstripes next year.

I think they'd love to bring Kerry Wood back, but I imagine he'll want to find a job as a closer someplace. Maybe a setup role on a legit contender will satisfy him. If not, I don't know whether that is a role they'd try to fill internally. Joba did turn it around this year, though I've personally had enough of him and wouldn't mind seeing him traded.

I wouldn't be sad to see Girardi go. He was supported by a fine coaching staff and served well as manager of a team in transition, especially with regard to applying discipline in areas where Torre wouldn't or couldn't. But he went a bit overboard managing the last three weeks of the season in preparation for the playoffs (which is the real reason they won so many fewer games this year). This clearly backfired on them in October. The playoffs are about momentum more than anything else, and they had none going into the postseason. A first round sweep of a team they've been dominating fo years didn't generate nearly enough to match the hunger in the TX clubhouse.

Further, I'm not so sure Girardi is loved in the clubhouse (Posada clearly can't stand him) and I'll also have a hard time forgiving him for bringing in David Robertson Friday instead of Joba or Wood.

No idea who I'd like to see him replaced with, though I have a long list of people I specifically don't want managing the Yankees in 2011, starting with Bobby Valentine.
 
19filthy
      ID: 568191312
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 10:57 		The average doesn't even account for Jamie Moyer. If he was healthy, Moyer would bring the average up by nearly a whole year, unless he replaced Contreras..

On the other hand, all it takes is a few youngsters to drop the average age significantly. A lot of the bottom teams from the link above haven't had to stay with a 25-man playoff roster, so they have a bunch of prospects bringing the average down. The Twins average age has gone down nearly a run with their post-knockout roster moves.

The Yankees can shed half a year off their average for next season by going with Montero as a catcher and having Posada replace Thames. They'll still be among, or leading, the top 5 by the start of next season, but it's not like the Yankees are falling apart before our eyes.

Also, some of the lowest aged teams have consistently proven that they will only spend on arbritration, or on free agents on the rarest of occasions. If these teams (Pirates, Indians, Marlins mostly) would let some talent stick around once in awhile, the Yankees wouldn't get to drive up their average age with their willingness to pay veterans to get them to the playoffs. Can't really blame them.

Can't really pity them either. Especially when a (finally) smart spending team that has rebuilt brilliantly were the ones to knock them out again.
 
20filthy
      ID: 568191312
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 11:05 		I actually don't like to include the Indians with the Marlins and Pirates as the cheap teams. They seem to get bit when they spend, and bit harder when they let guys leave. The other two seem to slowly be catching on that it is worth it to spend, but have a lot of catching on left to do.
 
21Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 13:41 		A first round sweep of a team they've been dominating fo[r] years

I've wondered about this for the last six or seven years and finally got an answer for this strange set of affairs. It seems that Ron Gardenhire was Maj. Gen. Howe, in a prior life, British commander of troops who captured New York City during the Revolutionary War then watched it burn, and karma is a bitch! Until the Twins replace Gardy, I feel we will all suffer for his past actions. For if the Twins had taken care of business, they certainly handled the Rangers a lot better than the Yankees in 2010. Damn you, Howe!

On behalf of baseball fans everywhere outside of the Bronx, please, please keep Jorge Posada around as a DH!
 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 13:51 		I think Posada is gone. His contract is up and he'll latch onto another club somewhere as a backup catcher and switch-hitting pinch hitter.

The problem with the Yankees is clearly pitching. Their hitting is at or near the top of the league (despite Jeter's off year), but their pitching (even their SP) is so-so. Mo's importance cannot be overstated, I think in the end, and they should go after Mo for another year with as much enthusiasm as Cliff Lee, IMO.
 
23Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 17:15 		There are two types of sports fans. Those who can celebrate a victory with a shred of grace and those who revel in running down the other team after they've been beaten.


whatever. i could easily point to your comments in the Texas Rangers thread where you said Had both teams played to their potential, I don't think the series would have ended the same way as you being a sore loser, but you were just offering an opinion, and not running a team down - much the same i was.

but, your reaction isn't unexpected. a large part of why many people don't like the Yankees or Yankee fans is because often they are poor winners, and even worse losers.
 
24Da Bomb
      ID: 508161517
      Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 19:02 		a large part of why many people don't like the Yankees or Yankee fans is because often they are poor winners, and even worse losers.

Can't say I have heard the before. I just thought it had to do with spending money. Yankee fans also have a unique situation in that they are the most hated team in baseball. I watched game 6 at a bar in Maryland and everyone was heavily cheering against the Yankees. Plus it is best not to generalize entire fans of a team, as there are all different kinds for every one.
 
25R9
      ID: 2854239
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 02:38 		I had a long email discussion with a Yankee fan about why they lost, so I cherry-picked our emails and came up with this post.

-------------------------------------------------

Definitely going to be an interesting off-season. Its a transition year simply because alot of their higher-priced contracts are up, a few of their high-priced pieces are a waste of space right now, and a youngin' or two could be starting next year.

#1) Derek Jeter: His defensive range has gone to the chutzpuh and he hit like a mediocre, backup MI. A .710 OPS for a starting SS is pretty awful when your defense is actually a (minor) liability. Well, at least its not acceptable for a high-paid starter. There are other SS who can hit .270/.340/.380, run decent, and probably play better D.
Of course, he's captain Yankee, a consumate professional and the SS market is always thin, so I suppose re-signing makes some sense. One would hope they don't pay him more then 6-7 mil per year though. And I'd lol if its for more then 3 years. There are other directions they could go if the $/years demanded get excessive.


2) Nick Swisher: Not sure why they'd let him go. The Yankees biggest unsolvable problems with FA's is never knowing who can and can't handle the NY spotlight. Its their one downside to their huge market advantage. Werth and Crawford are probably upgrades, but will require a serious multi-year offer. Swisher is barely a downgrade on Werth, and you know he can handle playing in NY. I'd stick with what is working here.

3) Rivera: Hard to imagine him wanting to pitch for anyone else, and the Yankees need him badly obviously, so seems like a sure bet to re-sign. Whatever price he wants will be worth it. Hoffman's decline obviously shows how fast the seemingly ageless can errode, but every guy is different and none of the signs are there yet for Mo. A rare case of a multi-year deal to a 40+ guy being worth it. Two years would be fine, three if neccessary.

4) Posada, Wood, Vazquez, Thames, Berkman, Kearns: Bye. Would be nice to keep Wood, but someone will likely make him a closer.

5) Montero: Should be ready. Will have his growing pains, not sure if NY will let him work them out in the spotlight, but hopefully they let him grow. Also not sure if he's a good enough C to stick there, but worth a try. Would make an awesome DH if he's not. So signing a backup C who can play a decent workload seems smart. Not like there will be many (any?) great FA C's anyway, so this approach seems obvious.

6) Lee, Crawford (and FA in general): I'm not a NYY fan so this is probably going to sound like Yankee-hating, but thats only partially true. My Yankee friend came to this general consensus as well. Would love to hear other NY fans thoughts.

I hope they sign neither. Partly because I think Lee back to Texas is just awesome, but mostly because this team needs to stop fixing flaws with 6 and 8 and 935631 year contracts. That just leads to more flaws in the longterm. (Looking at you AJ Burnett, and similar problems throughout the years.) There will be alot of more servicable, complimentary types on the FA market, that can be had on 2 or 3 year deals, that just make more sense to me.

The main reason alot of people think the Yankees have problems is that its hard to identify what kind of team this is. The Giants are clearly a pitching-and-defense focused team. Other teams focus on run-and-gun offense. What kind of team is NY?

From my POV, they're a bunch of prima-donnas who all do their own thing. That stems from the fact that there are so many superstars, it is difficult to know where everyone fits in. On every other contending team, you know who your 2 or 3 star hitters are, and who your big arms are. That helps players fit into roles. Players who know their roles help cement a team identity. And we've just seen how strong a team with a clear identify can be. (The article on Yahoo about how key Molina has been to both WS teams' clubhouses was a good read. Can't imagine he'd have filled that role on NY very well.) Texas and SF seemed to collectively Want It More (WIM, newest stat coming to sports discussions near you) even if in each player's heart from the 4 teams that isn't neccessarily true.

If the Yankees splurge again on hitting, who will be their big, go-to bat? Would it be Arod, Texeira, Crawford, Werth, etc... Who's the rock in that group, and who's the glue? Swisher knows he's glue. Would Crawford? Jeter, at his age and production, should be part of the glue. But will he act that way? Will others treat him that way? Will anyone tell him? How awkward is it being around glue who think and act like rocks?

To me, signing Crawford and Werth and Lee and god knows who else would make this team much better on paper. I just don't think it would help their chemistry issues, which are very difficult to fix once broken. And to me it seems broken.
This is an excellent opportunity to try a different approach. Keep your core of rocks, and fill it in with appropriate glue, not more hard-to-fit rocks.

--------------------------------------------

And yes, I know the Yankees won the last WS. And had the 3rd best record in baseball. And scored the most runs. And such.

That really isn't an arguement against what I'm saying though. Perhaps a team with more chemistry would've won the WS in even more convincing fashion last year, would've had the best record this year, would've scored more runs then any team in MLB history, etc.

Since their resources are unparalled it is difficult to find an appropriate benchmark to evaluate their performance, so I'm not going to try. I'm just going to argue that they have worse chemistry then the two teams going to the WS, and that it'd be worth it to fix that rather then maintain the status quo. They are always in an envious position budget-wise. That doesn't mean they shouldn't focus on chemitry and team identity. They can both spend big AND build a cohesive group. What a behemoth that would be.
 
26jseth333
      Dude
      ID: 24100310
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 07:04 		Posada has one more year on his contact - 4 years signed in 2007 - so while they may push him to DH more if Montero looks like he is really ready to catch doubt he is going anywhere...
 
27Great One
      ID: 27956257
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 08:56 		Please let whats left of Posada be the everyday DH. Please.
 
28Da Bomb
      ID: 508161517
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:58 		I think chemistry is extremely overrated in baseball. Everyone is saying this team had no chemistry, which was a main factor of why they ONLY made it to the ALCS. Is this team that much different than last year's championship team? Then I guess a team can win with a supposed lack of chemistry.

As for signing FAs, some guys are simply worth the money as they are difference makers, especially in a playoff series. Right now, Cliff Lee is that type of player and the series could have gone a lot differently had Lee been on the Yanks (which he nearly was at the deadline). Lee will probably get an astronomical contract wherever he goes and he may not be worth the money near the end if it, but he can certainly make any playoff caliber team into a serious world serious contender by himself right now.
 
29Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 14:10 		Can't say I have heard the before.

here are some examples of why people hate the Yankees.

Yankees have recipe for Texas toast; Think big, bad Cliff Lee is gonna keep the Bombers from the World Series? Think again.

things like:
Talk yourself into believing the Texas Rangers are a big, bad threat or that Cliff Lee will ruin October for New York Yankees fans.

It's not going to happen.

In fact, don't blink. This American League Championship Series might be over before you know it.

and

Don't believe the hype on the Rangers. It was a nice season, but it will all be over quickly now that the Yankees have entered the building.

at least he was right about being over quickly.

or this:

Yankees' storied postseason success matters in a series against the historically futile Rangers

The Yanks should win this series just by throwing their pinstriped uniforms onto the field and reading from a few pages of The Baseball Encyclopedia.

If only Bud Selig would agree to waive a few silly postseason rules, the Bombers might send their Scranton/Wilkes-Barre roster to Arlington for the first couple of games, make this a fair fight.

the irony of that last statement turned out to be true. it might have been a fair fight if the Yankees sent their minor league club.

this why people don't like the Yankees. the attitude of not only "we deserve to win" but "we are so vastly superior to you that we will win", is the problem.
 
30Great One
      ID: 27956257
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 14:26 		Or folks like my cousin who wished cancer upon Beckett cause he hit Jeter in a game earlier this year. Really? Really.
 
31Great One
      ID: 27956257
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 14:42 		but of course there are some of those in every fanbase... just throwing out a personal example.
 
32Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 18:58 		The unfortunate side effects of all the media outlets we have now lets douche bags have podiums. It is rare that we find people who will go against the grain, and give honest analisys instead of going with flow, and just using cliches and the big names.
 
33Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 12:59 		People hate the Yankees because of bad sports writers? Do they hate every other dominant-looking team in every sport for the same reason?
 
34Great One
      ID: 27956257
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 13:41 		Those bad sportswriters are just a sample of the same kind of crap I heard from Joe Yankeefan 10 days ago.

On WFAN last week they were all planning out the World Series dates... Game 4 falls on Halloween, right Mike? what time is the game? cause I am gonna move my kids trick or treating time since we'll have a home game that day. Really?

Of course these are probably the same guys who in April were debating if this was the greatest pitching staff in the history of the Yankees. They got a little ahead of themselves I suppose.
 
35Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 13:43 		Exactly. Sportwriters not only are fans, but pride themselves on reflecting the attitude of their teams fans in their writing.

The worst part of the Red Sox winning the World Series is that they started acting exactly like Yankees fans.
 
36Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 17:21 		The Onion: A-Rod Finally Leads Rangers to World Series
 
37Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 19:00 		Cliff Lee's wife harrased by Yankee Fans.
 
38Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 19:17 		It's the price paid by every fan of any team which achieves dynasty status. Tree's stones are thrown from inside a glass house, unless he became a Cowboys fan after the glory years of the 90s. Let's not pretend this is a phenomenon exclusive to the Yankees and single brief period in Boston.

Frankly, the notion that similar news stories and radio chatter don't occur before or during most playoffs in every sport in which one team is a heavy favorite is ridiculous.
 
39Frick
      ID: 42825248
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 19:40 		Were Yankee fans that obnoxious to anyone besides Red Sox fans? I can't say I remember growing up an area surrounded by NL teams. For the most part the AL didn't exist except for the World Series. Since Boston has had a great run in the MLB, NFL and NBA it seems all of their fans are obnoxious.
 
40Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 20:45 		The thought that the Yankees were "heavy favorites" in this year's playoffs is the most preposterous thing said in this thread.

I lived in Baltimore for the '92-'95 seasons, a time when the Yankees hadn't won anything in a decade and both the O's and Yanks were very good, competitive teams. Man, the locals hated the Yankees and their fans, they couldn't print enough Orange and Black Yankees Suck T-shirts.

But it wasn't just Yankees fans that Marylanders despised, it was New Yorkers in general. Now, I didn't have a dog in this fight or that much exposure to New Yorkers as a Left Coaster, but the passion the locals had towards hating people from the Big Apple was real, and from what I could tell, people from Philly felt the same way. "They're obnoxious" was all I heard. So it isn't too hard to imagine these people finding Yankees fans the same.
 
41Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 20:55 		the most preposterous thing said in this thread.

With all due respect, SZ you predicted the Yankees would fail to make the playoffs in almost every one of the past 10 years. And Im pretty sure you skipped 2008.

They were heavy favorites. This was reflected in every media prediction I saw and also the betting lines. Did the Dallas papers even predict a Rangers victory?
 
42Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Tue, Oct 26, 2010, 21:02 		The same media says that the Cowboys were favorites to make the super bowl.
 
43Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 01:31 		It's the price paid by every fan of any team which achieves dynasty status. Tree's stones are thrown from inside a glass house, unless he became a Cowboys fan after the glory years of the 90s. Let's not pretend this is a phenomenon exclusive to the Yankees and single brief period in Boston.


it's not exclusive to the Yankees, but they've cornered the market on it.

when i was at game one of the ALCS, my buddy left to get us some beer. a guy swooped into his seat and said "Josh?"

i realized it was a guy i used to work with in the music biz in NYC, a guy i hadn't seen in nearly three years.

"Gene, what are you doing here?"

"how could i miss this?"

"i didn't know you were a Yankee fan."

"i'm not. Mets. And anyone playing the Yankees!"

and that's pretty much what i hear anywhere i travel. people hate the yankees. passionately. because often, their fans are arrogant, and not just expectations of a championship, but more a "HEY! this is ours. you can't have it. we are OWED this. we OWN this" sort of attitude.

i've been a cowboy fan since 1978. and i've heard some incredible bile. but it doesn't even touch the bile for the Yankees.
 
44Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 06:27 		What can I say? Wear and defend your hate with pride, pal.
 
45Great One
      ID: 27956257
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 08:46 		I think the worst fan in all of sports is the Yankee + Cowboy fan combo who likes both. I can get a Yankee/NYG fan. Cause you know how they came to like them. And I can get a guy from Texas like Tree liking those teams.

But when you meet a Yanks fan, and then find out after he's also a Cowboy fan. Then you look at that guy a bit differently. I am gonna guess that even fellow Yanks fans feel that way about him. Like he's not a real Yanks fan. A guy I used to work with who was a Yankee/Cowboy/Lakers/UNC fan. Did he just sit down one day and say - what are the best teams in each sport? Like Bryce Harper frontrunner....

I'm not saying you can't like teams in other cities... hell I am a RedSox/Jets/Nets/Devils fan.
(Teams that play in Jersey that we'd drive to growing up + family all originally from New England). But I am also picked some more or less non-winning franchises to get behind.
 
46Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 09:12 		Bandwagoners bug me in any sport. I especially have trouble with bandwagon Yankee fans and would go a step further and admit that fans in their mid-20s and younger (new-age Yankee fans) who didn't experience the lean years older fans endured tend to not appresiate what we have now. They find stories of the revolving door of mediocre shortstops and consistantly inept rotations irrelevant and insufferable.

That's not to say they don't appreciate the legacy, there's no shortage of old time Yankee legends names on the backs of young fans at the stadium, just that you can't fully appreciate success if you've never known real failure.

But all this talk about hate really bugs me. I've frequently posted over the years here that I find Boston fans insufferable but in a decade of posting through 2004 and 2007, I've never opined about harboring or definding any hate.

Further, my opinion of the tendencies of Boston fans has nothing to do with what I think of the team. In fact I couldn't have more respect for Epstein and Francona and a lot of the Sox players, even if I get extra excited when the Yanks beat them and extra down when the Yanks lose to them.
 
47blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 09:46 		Somehow, I've managed to be both a Red Sox and Yankee fan (at least in the AL). I appreciate what both have done over the last few years and enjoy watching all the good players on both teams. But yes, I find fans of both to be insufferable (and also come across the occasional insufferable Phillies fan as well).

I remember those lean Yankee years. My father is a die-hard Yankee fan and listens to 150 games a year on WCBS from over a hundred miles away (with static). He still talks about Alvaro Espinosa and Pat Kelly and Randy Velarde and Wade Taylor and Andy Hawkins and Scott Kamieniecki. And Hensley Meulens and Kevin Maas. Lean years.

By the way, New York is the greatest city in the world. I've lived a few other places and I am convinced of that.
 
48Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Wed, Oct 27, 2010, 10:11 		And Hensley Meulens and Kevin Maas.

piles and piles of Topps "Future Stars" cards are crying somewhere.

By the way, New York is the greatest city in the world.

with this, i won't disagree. but also, one of the hardest cities in the world in which to actually reside.
 
49Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 19:12 		Onion article a little late, but has a hilarious quote that I thought fit this thread.

"I don't want to watch a World Series between two teams that are so good—no, great—that they beat the New York Yankees and Philadelphia Phillies," Richmond, VA resident Tom Hallorin, 36, told reporters, echoing millions of his fellow citizens. "I want to relish a losing performance from a team that I absolutely hate or, failing that, endure a championship win from a team that I hate in order to justify being even angrier at their organization, their players, and their fans."

 
50Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 21:29 		Too much of a hassle to link with my phone but NY Daily News reports today that the Yankees are not interested in Carl Crawford or Jason Werth. The do need another starting pitcher. Any ideas about a backup plan if the fail to sign Lee?

Also, former Yankee scout, GM, manager, pitching coach and Tampa-based Steinbrenner confidant Clyde King passed away this week. Tough year for the old guard of the Steinbrenner era.
 
51Great One
      ID: 20955287
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 10:46 		Do you think they don't want Werth or Crawford cause they need to put Jeter in the OF in another year or so?

Is Jeter gonna get what he's asking for?
 
52Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:21 		Yankees are not interested in Carl Crawford or Jason Werth.

I don't buy it for 1 second. They supposedly weren't 'that interested' in Mark Teixeira but swooped in at the 11th hour to sign him.

If NYY are interested in a player, the price tag immediately climbs. Especially if that player is a Boras client (as I believe Werth is). The Yankees will be there with bids in.

 
53Great One
      ID: 20955287
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:26 		Francesa said that despite the fans love of Nick Swisher, that his sources indicate management isn't in love with him. They feel he struggles against top quality pitching. And if that is the case that is an issue come playoff time obviously.
 
54Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:51 		#52: I completely agree. These are all negotiating stances right now.
 
55R9
      ID: 2854239
      Sat, Nov 06, 2010, 14:15 		53, thats a difficult statement to quantify statistically, but if you go to Yahoo and do a Batter vs. Pitcher search for his career, and scan down the teams for top pitchers you'll see he does pretty good.

Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia, Felix Hernandez, etc. he's all done well career-wise. There are a few he's pretty mediocre against, but I'm sure thats true for a whole bunch of hitters. Actually, considering most of those guys have OPP AVG stats far below the league average, Swisher actually looks like he does GOOD vs. top pitching.
 
56Electroman
      ID: 10833614
      Sat, Nov 06, 2010, 17:37 		Swisher sometimes reminds me of Pete Incaviglia in the field, he makes the plays despite himself.
 
57Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 17:12 		Disagree on Werth and Crawford. I don't think they're interested and I think the possibility of moving Jeter to the OF is a part of it. In the Teixeria case I could be wrong but I don't recall any denial of interest. They simply never commented about Teixeria until they signed him.

Further, at the time Teix was signed, the best 1st baseman on the roster was Nick Swisher, a mediocre defensive 1B, .244 career hitter at the time and coming off a 2008 season in which he hit .219. The OF going into 2011 is much better shored up than 1B was going into 2009.

Is Jeter gonna get what he's asking for?

I haven't heard anything about what Jeter is asking for. What have you heard?
 
58Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 17:18 		Here's the NY Daily News story I didn't link the other day.

According to a source, the Yankees aren't planning to make a hard charge for Crawford or Jayson Werth, the top two offensive free agents available this winter.

Brett Gardner's breakout year, Nick Swisher's solid season and the late-season emergence of Curtis Granderson have the Yankees convinced that paying top dollar for an outfielder isn't the most sensible way to spend their money.

"Unless they parted with one of those guys, I'm not sure where they would fit," the source said of Crawford and Werth.

A year ago, it seemed to be a foregone conclusion that the Yankees would pursue Crawford. But Gardner's emergence this season - he led the Yankees with a .389 on-base percentage, scored 97 runs and stole 47 bases hitting primarily in the eighth and ninth spots in the lineup - has made the Bombers re-think their need for Crawford.

While the 29-year-old Crawford is expected to command a six- or seven-year deal worth $15 million-$18 million per year, Gardner - who is two years younger than Crawford - will earn about $500,000 in 2011 and has three years of arbitration after that before becoming a free agent.

Werth, who hit .296 with 27 home runs, 85 RBI and an NL-leading 46 doubles, could be of interest to the Yankees if they were to deal Swisher, who is set to earn $9 million next season, a jump of $2.25 million.

Various published reports indicate that Werth - who hired Scott Boras this year - is seeking a deal in the area of Matt Holliday's seven-year, $120 million contract. Even if Werth settles for a Jason Bay-type contract in the four-year, $66 million range, it's unlikely the Yankees would commit that kind of dough to an outfielder turning 32 in May.
 
59Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 17:37 		From Friday, NYDN: Jesus Montero will get an opportunity to win the starting catcher job this spring, likely moving Posada to an everyday DH role.

I can't help but wonder whether Posada will reject this and demand a trade. I love the guy but he is one surly piece of work. And he seems to really loathe Girardi. Probably would have been a much easier transition under Torre.
 
60Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 17:44 		I was watching Loudmouths yesterday, and the scenerio they were pointing to was reluctantly using Montero as trade bait for a younger, top-tier SP. Hopefully one they can lock into a long contract.
 
61Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 18:13 		PD #60

I think that's what most people had been thinking all along through Montero's progress, especially with the emergence of Austin Romine, one step behind Montero, slated to be the starting catcher at AAA Scranton this season. But as the link in #59 notes:
Many industry experts believe that the Yankees have tried to inflate Montero's value in order to use him in a trade for a starting pitcher if they're unable to sign Lee, but as the source noted, "There really aren't any pitchers of that caliber out there to trade for."

Kansas City will likely shop Zack Greinke, but the 2009 Cy Young winner can reportedly block trades to 20 teams, with the Yankees high atop the list of teams he doesn't want to play for.

The source said the Yankees have no plans to deal Montero, making it even more important that they do what they must to sign Lee to a free-agent mega-deal.
I really hope this is the case. Cashman's commitment to promoting talent from within has definitely borne fruit in the form of Bret Gardner, Joba Chamberlain, Francisco Cervelli and Phil Hughes. Add in Robinson Cano and (if he works out) Montero, and you have what looks like a pretty nice next generation of homegrown Yankee talent.

Anyway, some in-house plan-b options if the Yankees fail to land Cliff Lee.

Andrew Brackman
Dellin Betances
Manuel Banuelos

Not mentioned in that article is Ivan Nova, who started 7 games in August and September.

There isn't a lot of free agent SP talent after Lee. I'm sure the Yankees wouldn't look at Pavano. Jake Westbrook, Brandon Webb and Erik Bedard are coming off injuries. Kuroda could be a possibility but he's up there in age and his nice-looking stats would be subject to a significant AL adjustment. With so many possibilities still in the farm system, even if Lee signs elsewhere I don't really see the point in throwing veteran money at one of those guys or someone similar (Jorge De La Rosa, Aaron Harang, etc.) unless Andy Pettitte decides to retire.
 
62Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 18:24 		There isn't a lot of free agent SP talent after Lee.

Exactly. Which is why quietly dangling Montero would open up the possible players to all tradable players.

I agree with you on the home-grown committment. Except for that one position, which is overfull. You have at least 3 promising young catchers and only one real spot for them next year (or 2012). Either Cervelli, Montero, or Romine will have to go--maybe 2 of 3.

The Yankees long experience with Posada shows that they can lock in a good young catcher, who will have that position for years. My guess is that they are hoping one of the three (probably Montero) steps into Posada's shoes and they don't have to worry about it for 5-7 years. But I think they'd be just as happy to move Montero, keep Cervelli in that slot, and make a strong push for a De La Rosa, Wainwright, or Verlander.
 
63Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 21:26 		I don't know why you're sympathetic to the point that there aren't a lot of quality free agent SP but not to the point that there aren't a lot of quality SP available to the Yankees on the trading block. They seem equally true to me.

The Yankees, whether they have inflated Montero's value or not, clearly value him very highly. Note they were willing to move him for Lee during the 2010 season - but not for Dan Haren. Who do you think they could land for Montero? I'm sure they wouldn't move him for anything less than a Cy Young contender with some decent milage still left in him, and I don't see a lot of those guys on the block with the exception of Greinke. Do you?

Further, Romine isn't ready and Posada has oficially become a liability behind the plate. If they move Montero this offseason, that would mean going with Francisco Cervelli and his career .340 SLG as the starting catcher. I think the more likely plan is to give Montero every opportuninty to succeed with Romine ready in case he doesn't work out. If he does, Romine or Cervelli becomes expendable. Romine is probably the better talent of the latter two and less likely to remain content as a potential career backup to Montero. So I suspect that if Montero pans out, Romine will likely be moved the following year or soon after.
 
64Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 21:50 		I'm not sure of your point. Offering a guy like Montero (or even Romine) as trade bait opens up a lot more possibilities for the Yankees getting a SP than not.

There are, by my count, almost 40 FA SP (about 2/3 of which have player options or aren't of high enough quality to even talk about). Taking out the 2 Yankee FA SP, the pool we're talking about it probably these 15, at best:

Jeremy Bonderman DET
David Bush MIL
Chris Capuano MIL
Kevin Correia SD
Jorge De La Rosa COL (just realized he a FA now)
Justin Duchscherer OAK
Cliff Lee TEX
Ted Lilly LAD
Carl Pavano MIN
Nate Robertson PHI
Ben Sheets OAK
Jeff Suppan STL
Hisanori Takahashi NYM
Brandon Webb ARI
Jake Westbrook STL

Some of these are intriguing, but, besides Lee, who else would you build a staff around for the next, say 2-3 years?
 
65Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Sun, Nov 07, 2010, 23:10 		Ted Lilly signed a three year contract with The Dodgers.

Assuming the Giants lock up Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum, the only young arms I really think are absolute money for the next six or seven years is Felix Hernandez, Ubaldo, and Adam Wainwright in that order. They all play for teams that I believe will open the vaults in order to keep them. So, I don't see the Yanks pulling off another CC signing for the next few years.
 
66Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 00:17 		PD 64

Right, we agree there isn't a lot of free agent SP talent.

My point is that there don't appear to be a lot of trade options that would interest the Yankees enough to move Montero, either. You disagree and say you expect the Yankees to shop Montero. I asked you if you had any deals in mind. I don't. As said, it would seem that the lack of options, their regard for Montero (Haren wasn't enough for them to dangle him) and the fact that they don't want another year of Posada as the primary backstop or to be stuck with Cervelli's 1 dimensional stick digging a hole in the bottom of the lineup all seem to indicate that moving Montero this offseason is unlikely.
 
67Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 00:49 		Maybe. But I think their SP needs are much greater than sucking it up with Cervelli behind the plate.
 
68Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 01:16 		I assume you mean this is contingent on Lee signing elsewhere. I'd say that if they fail to sign Lee and if Pettitte also retires, then that might prompt them to consider a Montero trade. Though I'd still think it highly unlikely even in that scenerio.

Also, for the record, I'm not that gung-ho about signing Lee. He looks like a very good pitcher at the peak of his career, but not necessarily a perennial CY contender, which is the kind of money he's gonna get ant the kind of results that will be expected of him. Call it a hunch, but I'm betting that if he signs a long term deal in the AL, it will end up looking more like the second half of Mike Mussina's career than an extension of Lee's last couple of seasons. Not that Moose didn't come up big in a lot of spots for a long time, but the tough veteran usually fell well short of legitimate ace status.

It's not much of a hunch, though. The majority of top dollar free agent starting pitcher contracts fall short of their billing.
 
69Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 01:20 		true dat.
 
70Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 10:03 		Bill Madden is probably getting a bit ahead of himself here, but this could be just as likely as Jeter moving to the OF after 2011:
...it's becoming increasingly clear the plan is to phase out Jorge Posada next season when his contract expires, opening up the DH slot for Alex Rodriguez, thereby allowing Jeter to move to third, making room for a more athletic shortstop, which would be the 24-year-old Venezuelan, [Eduardo] Nunez, who hit .289 with 50 RBI and 23 stolen bases in 118 games at Triple-A Scranton this season.
 
71Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 10:09 		Nunez is an exciting player (he plays right up the road from me). Not a power guy, though.

Hey MITH, if you ever want to make a day trip and catch a Scranton game lemme know.
 
72Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 10:28 		Yeah he got 50 ab with the Yankees this year. I guess the steals is why they seem to like him more than Ramiro Pena.

I might take you up on that, PD.
 
73Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Nov 09, 2010, 09:36 		Don't be so certain money will win over lee to the yankees (when there will be considerable money coming from the Rangers and Angels, too).

I cna't find the article to link it now, but yesterday I was reading one on Espn that mentioned an incident at yankee stadium involving his wife, yankees fans, spit and beer.

"Hey honey, the Yankees offered me a 5 year hundred bajillion dollar deal!"

"f--- the yankees and their fans."

"Yes, dear."
 
74C1-NRB
      ID: 2672611
      Tue, Nov 09, 2010, 13:47 		Doesn't New York have a state income tax?

Texas doesn't.

Wouldn't any team in a state with a state income tax (California being a notorious example) have to pay "that much more" if it's "all about the money?"
 
75Great One
      ID: 20955287
      Tue, Nov 09, 2010, 15:21 		USA Today Free Agent list... but the rankings are hilarious.
 
76Da Bomb
      ID: 508161517
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 13:30 		Yanks meeting with Lee today. I'd be surprised if they don't get him. Don't remember the last time the Yanks didn't sign someone they really wanted. Plus I don't think he has any strong ties to Texas since he was only there a couple months.
 
77Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 13:59 		Don't remember the last time the Yanks didn't sign someone they really wanted.

The Yankees have always been very careful in the FA market, IMO, right from the start (the first FA marketplace was 1976, when the Yankees got Reggie Jackson). They were spurned in that first season of free agency, however--they had targeted Bobby Grich for SS and when he went to the Angels they put out some rumors that they weren't sure of his ability and they couldn't sign him because of his demands (which was funny because he didn't make any--he just didn't want to play for them).

There are also a number of players who have "no Yankee" clauses in their contracts (most famously, I think, Ken Griffy Jr.).
 
78Mith
      ID: 2210551019
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 20:55 		Plenty of players have clauses where they will provide their team with some specified minimum number of teams they'd accept being traded to. And maybe I've heard some players working in the right to veto any trade. But I've never heard of any specific "no yankee" clause for Griffey or any player. Sure you didn't misread that someplace?
 
79Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 21:02 		No.

Apparently when his Dad was playing for the Yankees, Billy Martin yelled at him and he vowed never to play for them if he became a MLB player. So he had an understanding with the Mariners to not trade him to the Bronx (later, of course, he had the clout to actually put that into his contract).
 
80Mith
      ID: 2210551019
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 21:31 		I'm familiar with the Martin story, and also that his dad overall hated playing there. As I recall he wanted to DH but the Yankees had him taking cortizone shots in his knees to stay on the field. But I've never heard that Griffey or any other player worked any outright prohibition to be traded to a specific team in their contract.

I think you're mistaken about that, PD.

Here's a NYDN article from 2008 noting that Reds GM Jim Bowden wanted to trade Griffey to The Yankees in 2003 before he got hurt.
 
81C1-NRB
      ID: 401412422
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 23:18 		I heard recently that Zach Greinke has a "No Yankee" clause.

I'll investigate further...
 
82C1-NRB
      ID: 401412422
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 23:24 		That didn't take long:
Details of Zack Greinke contract

It's not just "No Yankee" per se, but is is "small market only."
I should've looked before I posted.
 
83Tree
      ID: 1410371019
      Wed, Nov 10, 2010, 23:42 		Plus I don't think he has any strong ties to Texas since he was only there a couple months.

Well, he was born and raised and still lives one state away.
 
84Great One
      ID: 451047117
      Thu, Nov 11, 2010, 08:47 		thats also cause Grienke has some type of social anxiety issue, so he probably can't handle that type of environment
 
85Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Nov 11, 2010, 09:10 		I've heard it said of plenty of players that they would not play for the Yankees, including Griffey, but never that any team's name was actually prohibitively writtten into their contract. Its also a bit difficult to believe that a player with such an amicable reputation as Griffey would include language like that, whatever his personal feelings. A rumor like that might be easier to believe if it were about someone like Curt Schilling or another surley Yankee nemesis.

I've never heard of any contract with such a clause and it just doesn't sound likely to me, much less famously so.
 
86Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Nov 11, 2010, 09:47 		NYC tabloids reported this week that Posada's wife posted on Facebook and Twitter that Jorge Posada would be the regular Yankee DH in 2011.

This came a day of two after Posada was quoted as saying that if the Yankees plan to move him to DH, he expects to be told so.

Yesterday, ESPN reported:
Yankees general manager Brian Cashman informed Posada of his intention to give top prospect Jesus Montero a shot to win the starting catching job, a baseball official with knowledge of the conversation told ESPNNewYork.com on Wednesday.
This is one seriously elaborate ruse if it's all in attempt to prop up Montero's trade value.

On Lee, the more I think about him the less I'd care to see him in NY.
 
87Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Wed, Nov 24, 2010, 10:41 		Reports are that Pettitte is looking likely to return in 2011.
 
88Species
      ID: 3610232412
      Wed, Nov 24, 2010, 13:23 		Jesus Montero's value is due to the Yankees overhyping him? REALLY? That's rich. Have you guys really examined the numbers this guy has put up, particularly for his age?

As a YOUNG 19 year old in 2009 (meaning, he'd only turned 19 the previous November), Montero DESTROYED the Florida State League, which is high-A ball to the tune of .356/.406/.583 with 8 HR in 48 games. As if that wasn't impressive enough, he was promoted to the very tough Eastern League (AA), where most top prospects distinguish themselves. Montero was facing top competition, all of whom were 2-3 years older than him. All he did was hit .317/.370/.539 with 9 HR in 44 games.

In 2010 he played all year at AAA Scranton as a 20-year old. Sure his .289/.353/.517 line with 21 HR looks pedestrian compared to 2009....but that is REALLY nitpicking for someone that young.

Review every respected, unbiased prospect site (BA, BP) or prospect hound (Keith Law, Sickels, numerous others) and all praise Montero's bat as a premium, middle-of-the-order bat. Most doubt his ability to catch, but the bat will carry him
 
89blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Nov 24, 2010, 15:09 		Montero looks to be pretty great, but there is certainly at least SOME history of Yankee prospects not working out.
 
90R9
      ID: 2854239
      Wed, Nov 24, 2010, 15:27 		The difference between real-life baseball and fantasy are huge when it comes to Montero.

Fantasy owners have the perfect prospect. His bat is going to be great (or at least has a great chance of it being great) and nobody cares if his D is bad. But, if his D is so bad that they make him a DH instead, losing that C eligibility would be awful.

For the Yankees, C or DH doesn't matter much, as long as his bat is there. Either his defense is good enough/improves enough, or it doesn't and they just go get a defensive C. No biggie.
 
91Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Nov 24, 2010, 21:44 		Montero looks to be pretty great, but there is certainly at least SOME history of Yankee prospects not working out.

Certainly.......but this prevailing thought that Yankee prospects have forever been overhyped in order to inflate trade value is a bit of hyperbole. Name the last Yankee prospect(s) "overhyped" and then used in a trade

Austin Jackson to the Tigers for Granderson? Nope. Jackson has probably exceeded his hype for Detroit last year.

I'm trying to think of the last trade that didn't "work out". A-Rod for Soriano? Soriano was already an established player, and that was a salary dump anyway. Someone help me out here.

Best one I could come up with in my memory: LHP Sterling Hitchcock and 3b Russ Davis to Seattle for Tino Martinez and Jeff Nelson. Obviously a Yankee landslide.

 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Nov 24, 2010, 22:30 		Most of their hot prospects they keep. Jeter. Posada, Pettit. etc.
 
93Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Nov 24, 2010, 22:48 		Brandon Claussen was the last overhyped player, I believe. Netted Aaron Boone iirc. Before that might have been Dionar Navarro, who I think went to AZ in the Randy Johnson trade.
 
94Great One
      ID: 53105119
      Thu, Nov 25, 2010, 09:11 		I prefer when they just buy a player from another team and don't even give up a decent prospect at all like Abreu. Much better business.
 
95Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Nov 25, 2010, 09:39 		That was a salary dump. And Abreu was making right about what he would have commanded on the open market.
 
96Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Nov 25, 2010, 11:49 		I prefer when they just buy a player from another team and don't even give up a decent prospect at all like Abreu. Much better business.

That's like killing the messenger.

Yes, it is to the Yankees' strategic advantage at times to make these trades......but where is the blame and ridicule for the team that actually signed the player to the lame contract to begin with?
 
97Great One
      ID: 53105119
      Thu, Nov 25, 2010, 12:13 		But if they bought him on the open market, wouldn't that team get high compensatory picks?
 
98R9
      ID: 2854239
      Thu, Nov 25, 2010, 15:29 		There was that kid who went to Cincy, who also played football. Don't remember his name, but he didn't pan out either. (Wasn't Claussen.)
 
99Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Nov 25, 2010, 16:13 		Great One
Only if the previous team offered him arbitration and the player declined. Usually when a team is eager to dump a player's salary in his walk year they don't offer arbitration out of fear that the player will accept. For example the Yankees didn't offer arbitration to Kerry Wood or Lance Berkman this year. The Yankees also notably declined to offer Abreu arbitration when he left NY, presumably a message to not let the door hit him on the way out, since the liklihood he would accept seemed pretty minimal at the time.
 
100Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Nov 25, 2010, 16:24 		R9

Drew Hanson was the prize in th Denny Neagle tade in 2000.
 
101JeffG
      Dude
      ID: 01584348
      Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 12:40 		Yankees sign Russell Martin to catch. Posada as discussed already in this thread will probably be primarily a DH and they'll probably still carry a backup C on the 25-man roster.

Now to float Montero or Romine for that needed plan-B addition to the rotation now that Lee is a Phillie.
 
102Great One
      ID: 01122913
      Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 12:49 		How about Carl Pavano? he won 17 games last year I think.
 
103RecycledSpinalFluid
      ID: 2511311412
      Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 13:34 		Didn't realize Martin was only 27 (28 in Feb). If he can revert his 2 year slide, thats a nice pick. Guess it also depends on the money involved (well, outside the Axis of Evil teams it would. Sorry, small-market fan in me couldn't resist one barb.)

Do you see Posada spot catching to lighten the catching duties for Martin, or is he headed to the glue factory as a DH?
 
104Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 14:46 		I bet Girardi gives Posada 5 - 10 starts at C in effort to keep him happy and that he probably winds up back there in another 15 games due to pinch hitting and other substitutions.
 
105Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Dec 18, 2010, 14:21 		Yankees add career-Met, Pedro Feliciano. for $8m over 2 years.
 
106Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jan 09, 2011, 09:53 		NYDN
"We never got off the dime, but strong impressions were that it would be something that would cost us more because we are in the division, kind of like Roy Halladay," Cashman said Saturday. "We like Matt Garza and I had a conversation early in the winter and it was clear that what it would take would be more significant than I wanted to do.

as first reported by The Journal News Saturday, Cashman insists the Yankees are keeping their first-round draft pick (31st overall), which they would have to give up if they signed a Type-A free agent such as Soriano.

"I would've given up the draft pick for Cliff Lee," Cashman said. "But I'm going to retain our No. 1 pick for ourselves. Once Cliff Lee came off the board, I called Damon (Oppenheimer, the Yanks' vice president for amateur scouting) and said, 'You're going to have your No. 1 pick, you're in the hunt for a first-round pick.'

"It's a strong draft and I'm going to leave that pick to Damon and his staff for another good pick. That pick is going to be a Yankee player."
 
107Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Jan 14, 2011, 23:29 		That was a quick reversal. Cash handed over the Yankees 1st round pick and a respetable sum for a closer over 3 years to Raphael Soriano to be the Yankees 8th inning man. While Cashman claims that the Yankees understanding of Pettitte's positiion has not changed since they spoke early in the offseason, this deal coming just a day or two after Pettitte confirmed he would not be with the Yankees this spring should call that claim into question.

Personally I don't like the idea of handing over the #31 pick in what is supposed to be a rich draft. It's been noted that the Yankees have been burned with high-profile setup men in the past, most notably Kyle Farnsworth, LaTroy Hawkins and Steve Karsay. The exception to that rule was Tom Gordon who, like Soriano, was a well-regarded closer before coming to NY.

The idea makes enough sense, compensate for what looks like a mediocre rotation with an exceptional setup-closer combination, moving last year's setup RPs to the 6th inning and earlier. It also has the combining effect of making Joba expendable and also moving him further from high pressure situations, hopefully giving him a better chance to regain some of his dominance and increase his trade value.
 
108Great One
      ID: 56051423
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 00:06 		Does this make Joba a starter again? and was a roundabout way of getting another starter?
 
109Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 00:33 		I hope not and doubt it. Joba's shoulder is still considered fragile and he'd have to be eased back into the role again. I doubt anyone wants to go through that again.

There's so much pitching talent that is close to MLB ready that I think the hope is that they can patch it together with offense and a good bulpen until either one of the prospects steps up or a trade for a good SP presents itself. If they get close to midseason and nothing is working and the rotation is in shambles you might then see them decide to stretch out Joba. Hopefully it would have to come to that type of situation with all better options exhausted before they'd consider it.
 
110Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 10:11 		NYDN claims to have the DL on the discrepency
Less than a week earlier, GM Brian Cashman had said he wouldn't give up the first-round draft pick required to ink Soriano. But Hal and Hank Steinbrenner didn't agree with his game plan - according to a source familiar with the Yankees' thinking - and overruled him, giving the righthander a deal that could ultimately go to three years and pay him $35 million.

According to the source, the Steinbrenners were bothered by Cashman's blueprint. One of the big issues was that Joba Chamberlain, a prized prospect yet to reach an expected high ceiling, was going to be Rivera's primary set-up man.

 
111Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 11:09 		I think Joba can be a very good, even great, setup man. His problems, IMO, stem from the Yankees insisting that he be a great SP.
 
112R9
      ID: 2854239
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 14:06 		Having a deep pen is definitely worth spending the $ on imo. A team like NYY, who can spend a bit more per arm in the pen should be doing this every year. Being able to trot out Soriano-Rivera in the 8th/9th (or even 7th/8th/9th) in a 1 or 2 run ballgame all year is probably more valuable then having a better #5 SP.

I can understand wanting to keep the pick, but Soriano is a top relief arm. His career #'s are outstanding. The only hiccups in his career were injuries early on, and somehow being traded for Horacio Ramirez.
 
113R9
      ID: 2854239
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 14:09 		Looking for Ramirez's first name in google, I came across this gem. So much fail in one small article.
 
114Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 16:26 		His problems, IMO, stem from the Yankees insisting that he be a great SP.

I'd argue they more likely stem from his fragile ego. He was a starter in the minors. He only became a RP when the Yankees had a desperate need to fill and there was supposedly a pretty good internal debate about whether to move him back to being a starter. At the time I felt it made sense since a good-to-great SP is easily more valuable than a good-to-great RP and everything Joba had ever said on the topic was that he wants to start in the majors and the team needed to find out if his potential stretched into the rotation.

In my opinion they got their answer, and I would agree, possibly to the detriment of his abilities as a relief pitcher. But if all it took for that to happen was 222 IP over 2 years in the role he's been training for his whole adult life and probably longer, there's clearly a greater issue than a decision to transition a talented young starting pitcher back into the rotation.
 
115Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 16:43 		Perhaps. I just don't think, at this level, Chamberlain is a high-level starting pitcher (that could be ego driven, I dunno. Certainly the expectations from the front office to Yankees fans etc put certain pressures on a player as well.)

The Yankees have some really good keys in their bullpen (Boone/Chamberlain/Robertson are all very good young arms). Maybe they need to re-work Joba's contract to get him bonus money for holds.

:)
 
116Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 23:41 		I don't think it was the overall stats as a starter that were the problem. He just never showed anything like the confidence and aggressiveness he had when he came up as a RP. The edge was completely gone. He got spooked every time he gave up a big hit and could never recompose himself (like AJ Burnett in 2010). He didn't attack the zone and just never seemed to be able to get big outs in tough spots. Even the body language was totally different.

I believe he could still regain his form out of the bulpen for the Yankees, in fact he may already have, as he looked like his old dominant self in September after a pretty good August. And I even think he could still be a very good SP down the road if he can stay healthy, but probably not in the Bronx.
 
117Great One
      ID: 2902189
      Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 16:22 		Yanks are the frontrunners to land Andruw Jones?
 
118Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:12 		With Pettitte's retirement, Yanks are kicking around lefty ideas.

 
119Skidazl
      ID: 3253219
      Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 14:29 		As an Angels fan, please take Kazmir. We'll throw in Wood for nothing.. LOL
 
120Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 14:48 		So much for being a team on the decline

And for:
THIRTEEN guys on their roster older than 30 - eight of those are 33 are older.

And also for:
Yeah, they can re-tool, as always, and become like the New York Mercenaries of old. But thats the only way they will compete next year.

Unless Martin, Colon and Garcia, for a total expenditure probably well under $10m counts as a mercenary-style retooling. They did shell out for Soriano, but he was a total non-factor. They'd have been better off keeping their 1st round draft pick. Another victory for Cashman over the judgement of his bosses.
 
121Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 14:55 		As always, they have a solid core. But let's face it--they rolled the dice on Garcia & Colon this year and rolled 7's on both.

I watched Girardi's postgame conference yesterday and he was expressing a bit of dismay over how the guys have lost a bit of gas here at the end, and with Hughes hurt they really need those guys to step up.

Sabathia has been rock solid. Burnett (who they should jettison as soon as they can when the season is over) is flaky and the rest of that pitching staff have been saved by a pretty darn good relief corps.

Martin has been a great, great defensive pickup for them. Hope they keep him to help Montero out.
 
122Great One
      ID: 574139
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 15:21 		Well CC is certainly running out of gas, they better leave him shut down til Game 1. He's allowed 10 hits like 6 times the last two months.
 
123Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 16:58 		PD

Sabathia started having trouble the minute they went to a 6 man rotation. Hopefully that works itself out.

But I don't know what you mean when you call him rock solid and say Cash rolled 7s on Garcia and Colon (not to mention omit ROY candidate Ivan Nova) and then say the pitching staff was saved by the bulpen. No time to look it up but I have to imagine the Yankees rotation stats rank fairly high in the AL.
 
124Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 17:20 		I'm talking specifically about Burnett & Hughes, MITH. Colon & Garcia were, essentially, waiver wire pickups who won games no one expected them to at the back of the rotation--two guys turning back the clock. And they were helped by the pen as well--Girardi couldn't (and usually didn't) count on them going deep into games.

All teams bring in pitchers like that into Spring Training--just to see what is in the tank. The Yanks plugged two into their rotation and both performed better than expected. A good thing, too. I don't recall them having many other SP prospects--Colon, in fact, got into the rotation because Hughes was ineffective very early.
 
125Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 18:53 		Agreed, the Yankees were lucky with Colon and Garcia. Hughes seems very fragile. Between his mysterious "dead arm" lasting into July and his herniated disk suddenly flaring up again, I'm beginning to wonder how many healthy and productive seasons he has in him. Burnett is a headcase and a bust. At this point the best we can hope for is that he'll have enough periods where he holds it together over the next two years to at least partially offset the inevitable meltdowns.