|
| Posted by: GoatLocker
- Leader [060151121] Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 00:32
Breaking news on ESPN.
Talk about a swerve.
Lee is on his way back to Philly.
Talk about a scary rotation. |
| | | 1 | C1-NRB
ID: 401412422
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 00:35
|
At least it's not the Yankees. Or any other AL team, for that matter.
|
|
| | | 2 | Great One
ID: 53105119
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 00:38
|
Awesome.
|
|
| | | 3 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 00:42
|
Oh happy day! Thank you Phillies and your blessed myopia!
|
|
| | | 4 | Khahan
ID: 13126822
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 00:53
|
Holy crap. Thats about all I can say is holy crap.
Halladay
Lee
Oswalt
Hamels
Whocares
|
|
| | | 5 | judy
Leader
ID: 7771722
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 00:53
|
WOW! SWEET! COOL! HOORAY! AWESOME!
I'll bet Werth is a bit regretful but he clearly chose money over winning...methinks he will struggle as the"franchise" player surrounded by -- um -- let's see Zimmerman -- um -- ???
If we can solidify the corner OF, we should be in great shape!
|
|
| | | 6 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 01:35
|
Halladay
Lee
Oswalt
Hamels
Wow, just wow.
MITH, can't see much for you to be happy about. Lee is just the latest free agent to take less money than the Yankees were offering.
I guess he wanted a shortstop with a glove behind him... oh, and another shot at the World Series.
|
|
| | | 7 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 02:56
|
the latest free agent to take less money
The latest? By my count it's Maddux in 1992 and now Lee 18 years later. I'd say that overall history favors NY by just about any measure you can think of.
Zennie may share the Philly myopia but I'm sure he'll figure it out by 2014 or so when the all-star pitchers Lee most frequently draws comparisons with are Barry Zito and Mike Hampton.
And lets be honest for just a moment here Zen, it's not like you would be praising the Yankees if they were Lee's choice. You are the FOX News Channel of Yankee observers.
...and if I were you, I'd be saving up my disingenuous scorn for when Felix is King of the Bronx. A development that wouldn't surprise me in the least if it happened this offseason...
|
|
| | | 8 | R9
ID: 2854239
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 03:02
|
As a Lee owner I'm happy he's staying in the NL, and out of both the Yankees and Rangers home parks. This is much better for Lee fantasy-wise, even if Philly's park is hitter-friendly too.
As far as Lee being similar to Zito and Hampton... I don't know what to say. ;) Both of those guys started with decent careers and nosedived. Lee is one of those late-blooming, control specialist lefties. Five years really is the perfect contract.
And wow, what a rotation.
|
|
| | | 9 | Bond, James Bond
Leader
ID: 04352469
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 08:03
|
Umm.....being a Braves fan, all I've got to say is @%*$%#@&*(&^#!^*_(*&%#%@@&*&%@!%*(()&%*(( !
|
|
| | | 10 | Frick
ID: 5310541617
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 08:33
|
Re: 9
To be fair, that was the same response for most of the 90s and early 2000s from every other NL team.
|
|
| | | 11 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 09:54
|
Who has the better rotation: the Phillies or the combined rotation of the rest of the NL?
|
|
| | | 12 | Species
ID: 011251414
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 15:25
|
R9: that won't drive up his price in G20....knock it off.
PS - what do you want for him? ;)
|
|
| | | 13 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 16:31
|
Wonder how much the Yankees fans dissing Lee's wife played into it, in the end?
Also, the Yankees treatment of players like Jeter this offseason reveals a bit of a "We're the Yankees. Take the frickin' offer" negotiating style that might have overlooked the fact that, for many, the baseball world does not revolve around them.
|
|
| | | 14 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 16:39
|
"We're the Yankees. Take the frickin' offer" negotiating style
Our resident Gretchen Carlson to compliment Seattle Zen's Glenn Beck.
|
|
| | | 15 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 16:44
|
FTR I do think the incident with the Yankee fans might likely have had something to do with it (and if so, that those jerks have done a great service to the franchise). But the irony is that if there is one place where the fans are tougher on their own than in NYC, that place is Philadelphia. I can't help but wonder what she's going to think of the Philly fans if I'm right and Cliff becomes the 20 something million dollar per year albatross that I think he will.
|
|
| | | 16 | R9
ID: 2854239
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 17:10
|
Been seeing alot of Yankees fans backtracking today. All of a sudden Lee isn't worth the $, when just yesterday a ton of fans were stoked that he was 50/50 to head there.
Now for the few who stated that opinion in the past, ok. Its just really funny to see it coming from Yankees fans who just hours before thought he was their missing piece in the rotation.
#12: Hah! Um... When I have room for more prospects, we can talk. :)
|
|
| | | 17 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 17:46
|
I'm in complete agreement with the notion that the Yankees offer of 6 years for $138 or 7 years for $148 million were way too much for a 32 year old pitcher. Lee does not strike me as the type of guy who will be worth $20 million at age 38 or 39. The Yankees will be struggling under the weight of ARod's and Jeter's bloated contracts in the Teen years of this decade, they probably avoided a third "albatross".
But there is nothing Glen Beck about laughing at a franchise that makes an offer that is $30 to $40 million dollars HIGHER than the one he signs. He sure would have made the yankees look good in 2011.
As for making Felix the King of the Bronx, unless they gave up Robinson Cano and Jesus Montero, there is no way the M's send him out East this year. I think you would be the only person in the world not surprised to see a wealthy franchise trade away the reigning Cy Young award winning arm still under an inexpensive 4 year contract.
|
|
| | | 18 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 18:00
|
Haven't really ssen any of that backtracking. All the Yankee fans I've heard from who disagreed with me (most of the ones I know) are pretty bummed.
Anyway, the 6th year vests, according to Jon Heyman, if Lee notches 200 IP in '15 or 400 IP combined in '14 and '15.
So it's $120m over 5 years plus either a $12m buyout or $27.5m if the 6th year kicks in. So in reality the deal will be is $132m over 5 years or $147.5m over 6, or either $26.4m or $24.583 per year, respectively. The Phillies offer was actually the highest on a per year basis, as the Yanks reportedly offfered 6/$138m with vesting making it 7/$154, or either $23m or $22m per year, respectively.
He did turn down the offer with the most guaranteed money, though he'd only have to clear $6.5m for 1 year after the expiration of his Phillies contract to top the total Yankee offer.
|
|
| | | 19 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 18:14
|
The Glenn Beck part comes with the demonstrably false insinuation that there is some notable history or pattern of free agents taking less money to not play for the Yankees, the feigned bewilderment at a Yankee fan's relief that another likely albatross contract will not be added to the 2014/2015 payroll, and now backtracking to aknowledge that very point in your next post, as if you weren't mocking it less than a day before.
|
|
| | | 20 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 18:43
|
And I agree Felix is a stretch with 4 years out. If the youth movement takes another dump in 2011 (not even 1 young player with a .300 OBP or .700 OPS in 2010!) next offseason might be more likely, since he loses trade value every year.
I think the most likely Plan C option for Cashman currently looks like Garza, if the Rays are willing to deal him within the division. Carlos Zambrano might also be a possibility.
|
|
| | | 21 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 19:42
|
#14: Perhaps you skipped over the stories about the Jeter negotiations? One need not try to paint me as a FOX commentator to have understood what Jeter was saying himself.
...and if so, that those jerks have done a great service to the franchise
Ha! Now comes the "we didn't want him anyway!" posts...
I get it--you think he is getting overpaid. But if he would have led the Yankees back into the WS for just a couple of those years, he would have been well worth it no matter how you measure it.
|
|
| | | 22 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 20:28
|
the stories about the Jeter negotiations?
I'm sure I watched more closely than you did. And I'm unaware of any Take the friggin offer negotiating style with regard to Jeter or Lee. Perhaps you think it was out of line for the Yankees to balk at Jeter's negotiating starting point of requesting a raise at this stage of his career, when the Yankees' starting point would already have kept him as the highest paid SS in MLB?
Or maybe you think they were out of line to point out that their offer would not be matched by any other franchise in response to Jeter's agent ran to Mike Lupica to air out his laundry.
Or maybe you're just a loyal wife standing in support of your husband...
Ha! Now comes the "we didn't want him anyway!" posts...
Please don't disingenuously accuse me of changing my tune, Gretchen. This is low, even for the standards you set on your show on FOX. I've quite vocally expressed my preference that Lee sign elsewhere, including in discussions in this forum in which you were invbolved.
you think he is getting overpaid. But if he would have led the Yankees back into the WS for just a couple of those years, he would have been well worth it no matter how you measure it
Funny, but that sounds precisely like the new-age championship-buying Yankee and Yankee-fan logic that the rest of the baseball world is supposed to hate the Yankees and their fans for. But today the Yankees are losers for having their ridiculously overgenerous offer fall short on a player who in all liklihood would have become a far-more-expnsive Mike Mussina at best and a slightly-more-expensive Jason Giambi at worst - at around the same time that Jeter, ARod and Sabathia will all likely be turning into pumpkins, themselves?
|
|
| | | 23 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 21:58
|
Funny, but that sounds precisely like the...
Context free respond, much? Seriously--you have this arrogant sensitivity about the Yankees that has come to be the defining characteristic of Yankees fans to the rest of the baseball world. You turn into Baldwin when you disagree with the way certain arguments are being made about your Yankees.
Did I call the Yankees "losers" or are you lumping other arguments made by other people into my authorship? Lazy, defensive responses aren't helpful to any discussion, and you are quick to take others to task for such approaches elsewhere. Keep up your usual standards, and raise your discourse level here, MITH.
|
|
| | | 24 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 22:02
|
and now backtracking to aknowledge that very point in your next post, as if you weren't mocking it less than a day before.
Backtracking requires tracks, O'Reilly. I made no tracks before this signing, no "mocking", no nothing. You seem to enjoy making up facts and then "lampooning" people about these "facts", Bill. It's not very effective.
|
|
| | | 25 | astade
ID: 78462922
Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 22:43
|
As a life-time Yankees fan, I'll echo MITH's comments. I am far more relieved that Lee didn't sign for >6 years with NY. I am very impressed with his last 3 years as a pitcher and it would have been nice in the short run, but understanding his age and the fact that it would tie them up financially for a while (20+ mil/yr) it didn't seem prudent.
The pendulum swings both ways...if we signed him, we would have high-fived each other for a quick- WS win (hopefully) or if he imploded (not the first time) then we would have been at the tail end of many rebukes.
Looking forward, I'd like to see the yankees step away from the contracts they agreed to w/ Arod, CC, Teix. They need to recognize that as a premier marketplace with a history of investing in players that they can sign players to decent contracts. They have the ability to diminish the notion that it's a player's market....if they got more savvy.
|
|
| | | 26 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 08:50
|
Astade
Teix looks like a reasonable deal to me. A power hitting 1B staying effective through 37 seems like a much safer bet than a starting pitcher through the same age, or a morbidly obese one through a year or two younger than that. 5 years for pitchers should be the limit, except in cases of an exceptional track record. Lee's track record isn't exceptional.
Glenn
no "mocking", no nothing
LOL Look we've met and I think you're a fine fellow but this YDS you suffer from has really got a hold of your perspective.
This is simply not genteel: "MITH, can't see much for you to be happy about. Lee is just the latest free agent to take less money than the Yankees were offering."
And yes, this is backtracking (or at least blatant contradicting, if you prefer) from the first half of that statement: "I'm in complete agreement with the notion that the Yankees offer of 6 years for $138 or 7 years for $148 million were way too much for a 32 year old pitcher. Lee does not strike me as the type of guy who will be worth $20 million at age 38 or 39."
I was expecting an image of a chalkboard in your response, complete with a flowchart diagram complete with photos of all the free agents who chose to sign with teams offering them less money than the Yankees. Maybe you're saving it for tomorrow's show?
Gretchen
Context free respond, much?
I've met you too and find you just as amicable. But please provide the context I'm missing.
In a more general response to your statement, Jason Giambi led the Yankees to a World Series in 2003. I don't know many people who feel that deal was "worth it", or that it would have been had the team won another ALCS during his tenure.
And for the record I didn't mean you called them losers in a derogatory sense, but in the sense that you actually meant, that they are worse-off for having not pulled it off; the losers in this deal.
Anyway it seems unlikely to me that you would be supportive of that deal as sound management had they pulled it off. Maybe I've got you wrong, but I'm under the impression that you are typically among the chorus of critics and whiners almost every time the Yankees sign a player to a long term contract. Were you not critical of the recent ARod, Sabathia and Burnett deals?
And for the life of me, how anyone could could fault the Yankees and not Derek Jeter over their contract negotiations is beyond me. They've done players wrong in the past; I was furious over how they pushed Bernie Williams aside. But the notion that the Yankees weren't negotiating in good faith after they opened up with an offer that pays him literally 25% - 50% higher than his current market value through his 39th birthday is ridiculous. And after signing him to a deal for some 25% more guaranteed money than that, through his 40th birthday, I hardly see anything resembling what anyone might call a "take the friggin money" negotiating style. Sure the Yankees allowed themselves to get into a little mud with Close (though much of the controversy was typically way overblown by the media) but Jeter came away far more tanished than the Yankees in this process. And I thought Close came off like an ameteur. Airing it out with Lupica was a shocking mistake and is ultimately what turned the city on his client through the process.
At least you didn't stick with your insinuation that I shifted to "we didn't want him anyway!" after the fact. No idea where you got that from or why you would post that.
|
|
| | | 27 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 11:16
|
Sorry, MITH, but if you are not concerned that the top free agent arm decided to sign a shorter contract for less money with the team down the road, you are foolish. If you can't imagine that this act will not cause the Yankees to make even more outrageous contract offers in order to convince players to play for them in the future, well, I guess I won't be able to convince you that there really is not a "War on Christmas", either. Because if there is something we all can agree upon, it's that the Yankees are not going to suddenly become a team that builds its roster from it farm system.
Yankees need starting pitching: Top starting free agent is offered a bazillion dollars to pitch of for the Yankees: He signs for less money with the Phillies: Yankee fan rejoices: Falafel!
|
|
| | | 28 | R9
ID: 2854239
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 12:05
|
I guess I'm in the minority on this one, but I do believe Lee will age alot better then other pitchers who have been given similar deals. He's not a power pitcher or someone who relies on one big out pitch. His control is impecible.
Similar pitchers have retired late in their 30's or early 40's, and imho alot of them leave the game because they feel they are ready to move on, not so much because nobody would sign them. I think Jamie Moyer alot more then I think Mike Hampton when I evaluate a guy like Lee.
|
|
| | | 29 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 13:17
|
If you can't imagine that this act will not cause the Yankees to make even more outrageous contract offers
The restraint vs impulse spending struggle within the Yankee front office does continue but it is severely diminished since George handed control of the team to his sons. If the GM's office was still a puppet of the old free-spending guard, you'd have a point. But #1, the Yankees do at least work within the constrains of a soft budget, and one that seems to have a decreasing advantage over other teams. #2 Cashman, who clearly operates with an eye on future budgets, has established for himself the position within the front office to shoot down freewheeling proposals and rely on the farm system or less than top money transactions to fill roster holes, and he has shown willing to do so. #3 It's really silly to believe that losing out to a slightly lesser offer (one for more money per year, no less) for the first time in almost 20 years will freak the Yankees out. Easily more players in the same time have turned down bigger offers elsewhere to stay with the Yankees, and I know at least one player, Carlos Beltran, specifically offered his services to the Yankees for less than the Mets had offered him.
I think you're allowing wishful thinking to cloud what should be apparent about the way Cashman has changed the way the Yankees do business.
...the Yankees are not going to suddenly become a team that builds its roster from it farm system.
Glenn, Glenn, last year's team featured a starting C, starting 2B, starting SS, starting LF, two starting pitchers, a closer, backup catcher (who caught most of the games) 2 backup infielders and the majority of it's bulpen - all developed from within the farm system, not to mention plenty of other bit players and several promising young position players and pitchers. Do most other big market teams boast much more than that? Recall that Cashman refused to ravage the farm system for Johna Santana in the 07 - 08 offseason and again for Cliff Lee this past trade deadline. That he hasn't rushed out to hand over the whole farm for Mark Buehrle or someone else should be a further indicator that they are not in the panic you insist.
It seems to escape everyone that if Pettitte comes back, the Yankees will have essentially the same rotation that won the World Series two years ago, when their rotation was regarded as their biggest strength. If he doesn't, there are definitely pitchers of that quality currently available for trade this offseason.
|
|
| | | 30 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 13:23
|
I forgot to add, if the Yankees were clearly so desperate to sign Lee at any cost that failure to sign him will surely prompt them to go out and blast the market away with their next offer to a big FA pitcher, why didn't they try to blast the market away with their offer to Lee? He wasn't even offered as much total money as Sabathia got. They let it hang for days, despite no movement from Lee.
This is all very amusing, but quite distinct from reality. Just like your hit TV show.
|
|
| | | 31 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 14:18
|
R9
We'll see, but Lee did go 6-8, 3.98 in the ssecond half last year and then go on to mess the bed in the World Series (albeit after a terrific showing in 3 earlier-round playoff starts).
Imagine if Cashman had handed over the farm for Lee in July, only to see him bolt after half a season.
|
|
| | | 32 | wiggs
ID: 356532011
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 14:57
|
25- Astade I agree with you about Lee- but if I remember right 2 years ago he was like 14-13 or something like that and 4 years ago he was sent back to the minors. He is definitely not the model of consistency.
|
|
| | | 33 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:27
|
Despite his losses (often because he was on so-so teams), he's got amazing control. He doesn't give up many home runs, and a very good WHIP.
The question is whether, at age 31, he should be locked into a long term contract. IMO a team has to make the effort to land a guy like Lee--you just can't bet against him.
|
|
| | | 34 | Great One
ID: 01122913
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:28
|
Cano, Hughes... Gardner I guess is pretty good but not a star.. Joba sucks... Austin Jackson helped land Granderson so he did his job.
How many other impact players have they actually generated the last 5-8 years? are you seriously still counting Jeter/Posada/Rivera when illustrating the exploits of the recent homegrown talent?
|
|
| | | 35 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:38
|
GO, not being one to normally extol the virtues of the Yankees, I think its a valid point for MITH to bring them up in this debate. The current roster of the Yankees includes jeter, posada and Rivera and they are homegrown talent. Maybe they kept them via over agressive spending in FA. But the point still stands.
The idea that the Yankees just buy FA without developing talent of their own is flawed. They spend big during the FA period on talent they developed. But they still have shown a capacity to develop big league talent. Then spend insanely to keep that talent.
|
|
| | | 36 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:40
|
Jeter signed two monster extensions with the Yankees. They bought his talent. Hell, they wouldn't have even had him in the first place if they hadn't outspent everyone else in the draft.
|
|
| | | 37 | Great One
ID: 01122913
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:54
|
Ok. What all star caliber players have they developed in the last 12-15 years? Cano, Hughes. I'm not giving you Joba, he was a flash in the pan. Gardner looks like a legit major leaguer but not an all star. Thats not especially impressive.
|
|
| | | 38 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 16:45
|
Soriano? Wang? Matsui? If you're listing Hughes, those three have to count.
|
|
| | | 39 | wiggs
ID: 2679223
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 17:52
|
The same can be said about Boston-
They have an old Varitek
Pedroia
Ellsbury
Youkalis
Lester
Papelbon
Buchholz
Am I missing anyone?
|
|
| | | 40 | R9
ID: 2854239
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 17:57
|
#32, Lee is clearly not the same pitcher who got demoted 4 years ago. I'd even go so far as to say he's been one of the 5 most reliable SP's in baseball since the start of 2008.
Win-Loss record really means very little as well, in terms of consistency.
#31, His overall playoff stats were quite impressive. Only 2 BB, 47 K's in 35 IP, 2.75 ERA. In fact, his career playoff numbers over 10 starts: 7-2, 2.13 ERA, 8 BB, 80 K's in 76 IP with 3 CG.
So yes, I guess we'll have to wait and see... but I'll go on record as saying I expect him to be a better value then alot of big-contract SP's, including guys like Sabathia.
|
|
| | | 41 | Electroman
Donor
ID: 010833614
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 18:33
|
RE 38-Matsui was brought over from Japan, not groomed by the Yankees. And Wang and Soriano have not faired so well lately.
|
|
| | | 42 | Mith
ID: 28646259
Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 23:14
|
Alfonso Soriano hit 300 hr and stole 380 bases over the last 10 years and is a 7 time all star. If that fails the stated standard of an all-star caliber player you're out of your mind. Wang, while never an all star, was a two time 19 game winner (both seasons well under 4 era) and the Yankees ace for those 2 seasons; 07 and 08. Before getting hurt in June of 09, he was 8 - 2, 4.07 in 15 starts with a k rate continuing it's upward trend for a 3rd straight year. Gardner's best years should probably still be ahead of him and if that means he improves just a little on his 2010 numbers of .383 OBP, 97 R and 47 steals and keeps it up for a few years, I have to believe he'll find his way into an ASG or two. Hughes is all ready an all star. Joba might be busted but probably not. I haven't liked him much in a couple of years now. Still has terrific stuff, the menal makeup is a mess IMO. I suspect that if he can stay healthy he'll have a rebirth as a dominant closer somewhere down the road. Maybe you meant a higher standard than all-star caliber? Since all of those players seem to fit a term that I take to mean that a player looks like he's got a pretty decent chance to be an all star.
|
|
| | | 43 | Mith
ID: 441141523
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 00:04
|
Sorry, Soriano stole 260 bases in that time, not 380. I was looking at his BB total.
|
|
| | | 44 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 01:04
|
Matsui was brought over from Japan
And so was Soriano. Why is anyone calling him a Yankee prospect, he was bought from the Carp?
|
|
| | | 45 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 01:32
|
I have no idea what Soriano did in Japan but he played two full years in the Yankees minor league system before graduating to the majors.
|
|
| | | 46 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 01:42
|
Baseball Digest Oct 2002 Following almost two seasons in Japan's minors, he made his Japanese major league debut with the Hiroshima Tokyo Carp for whom he played nine games in 1997.
The next year he signed with the Yankees, and in 1999, made it all the way to New York after starting the season playing Rookie League ball in Tampa. Anyone who remembers his Yankee days surely recalls how utterly raw a talent he was, even for a rookie. I'd say the Yankees deserve more than half-credit for developing Soriano into a major-leaguer. Matsui of course came to the US very much an MLB-ready player.
|
|
| | | 47 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 12353217
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 07:13
|
Matsui was brought over from Japan
And so was Soriano. Why is anyone calling him a Yankee prospect, he was bought from the Carp?
Because 390 AB at the age of 20/21 isn't even a full season of development and that's all he had in two years in Japan.
If, based on that, you're not going to call Soriano a Yankee prospect, then no player who has played in college should be labeled a MLB team's prospect because they'll have had more AB at a similar age than Soriano.
Soriano's 926 AB in MLB's minor leagues show exactly how much his 390 AB in Japan were worth.
|
|
| | | 48 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 07:45
|
Not sure where you got the 390ab number but I assume all or most of those are minor league at bats in Japan. As far as I can tell, based on the link above and his Wiki page, he played in all of 9 games at the major league level in Japan.
|
|
| | | 49 | Great One
ID: 01122913
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 09:18
|
Yes I agree on Soriano, he should count. No way Hideki Matsui should. Would we count Dice-K and Okajima then? doesn't make sense to this discussion of players developed in the minor league system.
Not to many teams have been this successful the last few years Wiggs... Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, Buchholz is pretty impressive. Thats 6 high level core players developed. If we are going back to add Jeter/Mo/Posada to their "recent development" then yes you forgot that Nomar guy, Trot Nixon, Mo Vaughn as they came from same era. Varitek is kind of a grey area cause he was originally a Mariner.
|
|
| | | 50 | wiggs
ID: 356532011
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 09:30
|
I was talking current Red Sox- Thats why I didnt include guys like Vaughn, Nixon or nomar.
I didnt realize Varitek was a Mariner.
|
|
| | | 51 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 09:55
|
Great One
You're the only one talking about "recent development"
In post 27, Glenn Beck offered the nonsensical statement, "Because if there is something we all can agree upon, it's that the Yankees are not going to suddenly become a team that builds its roster from it farm system."
I responded by listing the players on last year's roster who were in fact home grown. For some unknown reason, you then offered in post 34 that only players developed in the last 5 - 8 years are valid and inexplicably asked, "are you seriously still counting Jeter/Posada/Rivera when illustrating the exploits of the recent homegrown talent?"
I didn't bother to answer but since you insist... no, no one has said that. Who are you talking to?
Let's please not abruptly change the subject and then pretend that it's what we were talking about all along, ok?
|
|
| | | 52 | Great One
ID: 01122913
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:01
|
Those players came through the system during a different era. I am saying they haven't recently produced very many good to great players outside of Cano/Hughes.
|
|
| | | 53 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:28
|
Wow, am I really agreeing with MITH and supporting the Yankees?
Back to the original comment that spawned this whole discussion - Because if there is something we all can agree upon, it's that the Yankees are not going to suddenly become a team that builds its roster from it farm system."
I don't believe that. I think the Yankees are a team that over the past decade (or slightly longer) have developed some major league talent and field a team that uses its own developed major league talent. Sorry guys but denying that is simply turning a blind eye to the truth.
|
|
| | | 54 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:42
|
Khahan
You're just siding with facts. Rather simple and obvious ones, really. YDS really does distort perspective. You must have been vaccinated.
Great One
In his first full season, Gardner finished in the top 5 in steals, triples and several defensive categories, and in the top 10 in Defensive WAR, OBP, R and BB. Now, I don't know what your standard is for "good to great" (yesterday it was "all star caliber") but for a top of the order hitter, that Gardner sure looks like he's somewhere between good and great to me. Wang was also someplace between good and great before he got hurt. So I'd say that makes 4, with the jury still out on Joba.
Now, if you're going to again change your parameters to disqualify players who were good to great but are no longer so due to injury so that we disqualify Wang, then I would suggest that we don't quite know how well Pedroia and Ellsbury will bounce back from their injuries. Ellsbury certainly wasn't "good to great" (whatever that means) in 2010.
But since we're taking such liberties with discussion topics, lets move foward to the horizon (and I'll even provide the benefit of acknowledging the change, rather than use it to discredit your previous posts). The Yankees have 4 legitimate to high level pitching prospects, two high level catching prospects and 1 high level shortstop prospect, all projected to be in the majors by 2012 and sooner. Who do the Sox have coming down the pike besides Lars Anderson, who was a disapointment in AAA last year? He was the #4 prospect in the system before they traded their #1 and #3 for Gonzo. So there should be 1 player who is more highly regarded than Anderson, who's that?
It seems likely that if a good opportunity presents itself (or if you believe Glenn, any chance to ravage the farm for a warm body - the more futile, the more likely) some of those Yankee prospects will be departing. But (going back to the original and some subsequent topics) it seems clear enough that there has been a steady stream of good talent coming out of the Yankee farm system for the past decade, most of which they have held on to so far.
|
|
| | | 55 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:58
|
But (going back to the original and some subsequent topics) it seems clear enough that there has been a steady stream of good talent coming out of the Yankee farm system for the past decade, most of which they have held on to so far.
Jesus H. Christ, O'Reilly, this is just preposterous. Cano, Hughes, Gardner, and maybe Wang is simply not a "stream", certainly is the very opposite of "steady". Four guys, four. I don't care how much you scream "the sky is red", no matter how many examples you use "proving" this preposterous notion, you are simply showing that it is you, Bill, who suffers from Yankee Derangement Syndrome.
Three, four years ago it was Melky Cabrerra, now it's Brett Gardner, the latest of a "steady stream". Are you trying to make us spit coffee on our monitors?
|
|
| | | 56 | judy
Leader
ID: 7771722
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 11:17
|
You guys are funny with your debate!
As a Phillie Phan, I am thrilled for Lee coming back. I do, however, feel sorry for Werth who took Boras advice and all that money to play for a loser. Here is one statement from Werth's press conference introduction on Weds (same day as Lee's in Philly): "I've been to the postseason a lot the past few years, and that's what it's all about."
Well, son, if "that's what it's all about", then you made a big time blunder signing with the Nats for what will probably be 7 very long years....
|
|
| | | 57 | Great One
ID: 1711331610
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 11:46
|
I don't know, Ellsbury was drafted in the second round of fantasy drafts last year, seems like he is thought of slightly higher than Melky and Gardner... is Gardner even a full time player? and believe me, I know full well who solid a player Gardner is, I went to college with the guy.
And we are seriously debating if Pedroia is for real? Does he need to win multiple MVPs?! This was his first injury since his debut.
How about we defer to the experts. Where has Baseball America ranked these two farm systems the last 10 years?
|
|
| | | 58 | dpr
ID: 1990714
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 12:58
|
I thought common opinion with regard to the Yankees was that there success in the 90s was due the great crop of home grown players that they brought up, a few of whom are still around. But then there "struggles" in the past decade were due to a lack of result in this direction since then. Given that a comment on the yankees farm system would be about the last 15 years.
In that period they have Cano who is a major difference maker (and soriano who was traded away) and then Hughes and Gardner who are coming off real good years but likely need more data to see the quality of player they end up as (gardner is limited by his lack of pop and Hughes end of season stats weren't that impressive). Wang as far as i could tell was the same as Dice-K? Also should be noted other prior to last year this list from late 90s to 2009 was just cano. So maybe they are improving, and MITH claims an impressive list of minor leaguers (although outside of the catchers I don't know much about them).
|
|
| | | 59 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:12
|
Glenn
simply not a "stream"
OK, this is true. See even Glenn Beck finds a nut once in a while. There was actually a severe dearth of Yankee farm products from about 2001, when Nick Johnson and Soriano arrived, until 2005, when Melky, Cano and Wang came up, and then another for a couple of years after that. Those players were promoted in 2005 out of necessity that year and provided Cashman with a case that the farm system can be used as a source of talent, rather than just tradeable commodities. And it would be another few years before Hughes and Joba would come up. But considering that the seeding really only began in 2006, the yield since them has been pretty good. One problem the Yankees do have is that always being in win-now mode and playing in the AL East means that they cannot afford their raw talent much of a fair chance to develop at the major league level. They brought up a lot of pitching in the past few years and by necessity have had to let go or move guys who would get more of a chance to fail on other teams. Take a look at what Tyler Clippard did in 18 starts for Washington last year. Ian Kennedy was the defacto ace of the last-place DBacks in 2010. Russ Ohlendorf and Jeff Karstens didn't make the most of their opportunites to start but are with teams that could give them another crack at it. Keep an eye on Mark Melancon, now in Houston. There is another wave of 4 more good-looking starting pitching prospects ready or almost ready now. Eduardo Nunez turned a lot of heads at AAA and in the majors last year at SS. The two catching prospects are well documented (actually I think there is a 3rd).
Aside from my 'stream' comment, everything I've written about Yankee talent development is true. They have in fact shown themselves a team that builds a significant portion of it's roster from within the organization. This is more true than it would be if the core four had less longevity, but they've all proven pretty durable and the yankees have shown a determination to hold on to those players so it is what it is, contrary to Glenn's demands otherwise. And the renewed player development effort has clearly yielded early fruit in pretty short order and appears to remain well-stocked. How many of these new players come up and stay with the team for any period of time depends on what trade opportunities present themselves. It would be worth it to hand over a king's ransom in prospects for Felix Hernandez or some other young and exceptionally high value talent became available. And in that case, I'd gladly live with a gap in the current flow of new talent. More likely some will be parted with for the best deal that presents itself in the next two months. But I also think that if Pettitte comes back, Cashman is willing to go into the season without acquiring another SP, giving the young talent a chance with an eye on how the market develops.
Great One
seems like [[Ellsbury] is thought of slightly higher than Melky and Gardner
Who is comparing Melky Cabrera to Ellsbury? Who are you talking to? And who cares who got drafted higher before Gardner had ever played a full season? Who do you think gets drafted higher in 2011?
And we are seriously debating if Pedroia is for real?
No. No one has made that case, either. I referred to Ellsbury and Pedroia in response to your omission of Wang, a two-time 19 game winner in his first two full seasons, as a "good to great" player.
|
|
| | | 60 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:16
|
dpr
MITH claims an impressive list of minor leaguers
See post 61 in the Yankees offseason thread.
|
|
| | | 61 | dpr
ID: 1990714
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:35
|
MITH,
You pretty much doubted the validity of Ellsbury and Pedroia as valid points for the Red Sox were this about them, but then mention Ian Kennedy and Tyler Clippard? What contending team would want those guys in there rotation? I do realize they you discredit the Red Sox as a a response to Wang. The difference is Wang had two good years (and if you look past wins, which I assume we know isn't the best measure of a pitchers ability, then he was merely average) and nothing else. Pedroia and ellsbury have had as many good years (or better) and likely have more in front of them, although ellsbury does seem to be a bit of injury risk.
|
|
| | | 62 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:51
|
You pretty much doubted the validity of Ellsbury and Pedroia as valid points for the Red Sox were this about them
You're mitaken on this too. I was applying the logic used to omit Wang to Pedroia and Ellsbury - to show that the logic is flawed. Jacoby has about the same amount of time on an MLB roster as Wang, and a comparable amout of service (for a SP/position player comparison). Both have two full seasons under their belts. Wang was certainly more than a high win total pitcher. His ERAs in those two years were very good and he was the Cy Young runner up in 2006.
But it doesn't matter. Of course Pedroia and Ellsbury count as good-to-great players developed by the Sox. The point is that so does Wang (for the Yankees) even if he happens to be busted now, just as Pedroia and Ellsbury would still count if they were done in by their injuries. A freak player injury that shortens a career doesn't erase the fact that a very good major-leaguer was developed before it happened.
|
|
| | | 63 | dpr
ID: 1990714
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 14:26
|
I stated that ellsbury and and pedroia were a response to Wang. I am not sure what you meant by "too" also.
I did mince two arguments.The first being mentioning players like kennedy and clippard is silly. Of course they developed some players who are little more than below average Major leaguers and not a player of the quality who could help the yankees(I recognize this fact makes it harder for the yankees to have homegrown players. It is much easier to develop a player who could play for the pirates).
The second was on Wang. I just dont think he was all that good. I don't really care about wins when evaluating a pitchers skill so that takes away his best stat. His ERA in the high 3s was good but not much more than a solid 2 or 3. A player who definitely helps your team but not a huge difference maker. His K-rate was terrible although he did have a great ability to keep the ball in the park (lead the league). Actually I just looked up his ERA rank for those years. So without deleting what I had written he was better than I realized for those years 8th and 14 (a low end 1 but for the yankees a 2). I still wouldnt put him on the level of pedroia but maybe he could be comparable to ellsbury where I was previously thinking Nick Johnson.
|
|
| | | 64 | Mith
ID: 28646259
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 19:16
|
You're mincing two seperate points I made with some comparison you insist on that I didn't make and slopping it all together in some big nasty slurrey that doesn't resemble anything I intended.
|
|
| | | 65 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 19:18
|
Serve it with a big side helping of bighead fries and he'll be a Yankees fan too, then.
:)
|
|
| | | 66 | Great One
ID: 53105119
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 20:24
|
"Cliff Lee took less money to sign with the Phillies. That left the Yankees no choice.... but to buy the Phillies!" - Conan
|
|
| | | 67 | slizz
ID: 1710161519
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 22:55
|
judy...stop hatin' on Werth. He signs in Philly. you don't get Lee. Besides, if I am Werth...I take the $$$ too. Plus DC is an awesome place to live in. Outside of Rittenhouse Square, what does Philly offer that can really compete with DC?
|
|
| | | 68 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 23:23
|
FTR, I really think Wang hadn't reached his peak at all. A few years back, much was beng made of the idea that k-rate trends might be the best indicator of the direction a pitcher is headed. I don't know if that idea has held up but for whatever it's worth, for Wang that number trended from 3.1 in 2006 to 4.7 to 5.1 in 2008. Because he was such an effective groundball pitcher (he didn't give up many xbh of any kind, putting up SLG allowed of .320 and .324 those two years, compared with league averages of .437 and .423, respectively) most people have no idea that his fastball averaged 94 mph.
Whether the k-rate trend thing is any kind of accurate indicator or not, he was clearly beginning to learn how to use his velocity to induce strikeouts and was developing a very impressive repertoire for himself.
We can't know that he would ever become a year-in year-out protypical ace but he sure seemed destined to advance beyond the solid #2 pitcher status he had well-established for himself by age 27. It's a real shame he got hurt. I really liked rooting for the guy. He seems to have fallen into that cycle where injuries lead to screwed-up mechanics which may have led to other injuries. Hopefully he gets a good shot at a comeback someplace. I sure would love to see him get a minor league deal with the Yankees if he's healthy.
|
|
| | | 69 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 00:35
|
Just saw that Wang has signed a 1-year deal with the Nats.
|
|
| | | 70 | Great One
ID: 1711331610
Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 09:08
|
I loved how every year I would say Wang wasn't an ace and couldn't get it done in the playoffs... and then would get lit up come October! That was my favorite part of Wang.
Hopefully he can resurrect his career though, he seems like a nice enough kid. Lets see how many games he wins he can get on a bad team.
|
|
| | | 71 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:03
|
every year I would say Wang wasn't an ace and couldn't get it done in the playoffs... and then would get lit up come October!
He's pitched in all of 3 playoff series. 1 start in the 2005 ALDS. 6 hits, no walks and 1 ER over 6.2 innings in a loss. 1 start in the 2006 ALDS. Not as impressive as his 05 game but a quality start and a win. In 2007 he got lit up in 2 starts.
The FOX News Channel definition of "every year": one out of three years. Welcome to the discussion, Sean Hannity.
|
|
| | | 72 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:16
|
That was my favorite part of Wang.
Trying so hard to bite back politically incorrect statement about this, GO.
|
|
| | | 73 | Great One
ID: 1711331610
Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:50
|
Ok, so he was okay in 2 starts, and horrible in 2 starts. If we are counting 3 runs in 6 IP and a W as an great pitching performance cause thats what he did in the first 2 "okay" games. You conveniently put 1 EARNED run in there for his first one... do you remember the other runs allowed? They were of an throwing error on WANG who came up small once again.
Playoff career stats even without even counting those 2 runs that should be his?
He averaged less than 5 IP per start, 1-3 W-L, 7.58 ERA
His regular season road ERA during his 3 best years?
a simply dominating 4.62 across 237 IP.
15 starts in big games vs. BOS those 3 years?
equally studly 6-6, 86 IP and 4.98 ERA.
He was an okay regular season pitcher, who pitched well at home and racked up wins because he played on the machine that is the Yankees.
And he never came up big in a big spot.
|
|
| | | 74 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:57
|
Wang was an ace by default. Seriously--why would we even be talking about Wang in a thread about Cliff Lee? If Yankees fans want to take some comfort in the fact that they didn't get Lee but that's OK because they have Wang, I'm happy for their delusion.
|
|
| | | 75 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 20:37
|
Hannity: every year [Wang] would get lit up come October!
Mith: Actually one year gave up 1 ER in his only start, the next year he notched a quality start and a win with 3ER in 6 ip.
Hannity: If we are counting 3 runs in 6 IP and a W as an great pitching performance...
? Is English not your first language? When I say quality start, I mean quality start. Do you know what a quality start is? Do you at least know that a quality start is something that is distinct from getting "lit up"?
You said he got shelled every year. He didn't. You were wrong. Get over it. I don't know why you take a tangent about Chien-Ming Wang so personally that you have to dishonestly put words in my mouth to make your point, but you've done it a couple of times now. I don't appreciate it and it does nothing to advance the discussion. Please stop that. OK?
You conveniently put 1 EARNED run in there for his first one... do you remember the other runs allowed?
When you say conveniently, that suggests that I deliberately selected a stat to dishonestly portray the event differently from what actually happened. I provided result, IP and ERA because that's the line that I glanced at, what everyone always glances at when they make a quick check to see how a pitcher performed in a game. Fair point that the other runs were unearned ones charged to him, though only one of them was a result of his throwing error. ARod and Cano each also made errors that led to the Angles manufacturing runs. Still, 1 ER and 3 unearned runs in 6.2 innings isn't quite getting "lit up".
His regular season road ERA during his 3 best years? A simply dominating 4.62 across 237 IP.
Again, no one used anything like the word dominating in reference to Wang. If you can't resist sarcasm can't you at least get a little creative with it? Repeatedly exaggerating my points is juvenile and annoying.
Anyway, I do recall that he was a much better pitcher in Yankee Stadium. I'd imagine 4.62 is likely a touch lower than the road ERA for the AL over those years. No idea where to find H/A league splits, but the total league ERAs for those years was between 4.31 and 4.50. Plenty of pitchers more highly regarded than Wang were also average or worse on the road. The main reason for this I believe was that a ground ball pitcher just isn't nearly as effective on artificial turf, especially with an up the middle defense that included a SS of decreasing range, a weak 2B in Cano at the time and one of the worst CF in the league in Johnny Damon. His Era on turf is 5.60.
15 starts in big games vs. BOS those 3 years?
equally studly 6-6, 86 IP and 4.98 ERA.
Again, you make it seem like I said the guy was Greg Maddux. That's just not necessary. Familiarity works in the offense's favor. It's a product of the unbalanced schedule and part of the reason offensive numbers are up from previous eras. For example Clay Buchholz' ERA against the Yankees is 5.79. Josh Beckett's is 6.26.
Sean, I will say that you've made a compelling case to reject the notion that Chien-Ming Wang is a dominant type of #1 MLB starter. Why you felt this was necessary is beyond me, since no one has made this case.
Gretchen
The discussion shifted to Wang when his name was brought up (by someone other than me, for the record) after Glenn Beck offered a rather blatant untruth to support his fantasy that the failure to sign Lee can only result in the demise of the franchise.
And I agree, he was the defacto ace of the Yankees.
|
|
| | | 76 | Great One
ID: 1711331610
Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 09:03
|
But in post 71 you said his 2005 start was "impressive".... so you give anyone reading it the impression he went 6 strong innings with one run - but in reality there were other "unearned" runs there which a direct result of his own throwing error and is why he lost the game. They were his fault. There is nothing "impressive" about 3 runs in 6 IP. While it is technically a quality start it is also a 4.50 ERA and there is nothing impressive about that.
|
|
| | | 77 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 11:57
|
Actually only 1 of the unearned runs was the result of his throwing error. But regardless, you're really parsing. If you insist on nitpicking, I said the 06 start was "less impressive" than the 05 start. Whatever. I'm not interested in a subjective debate on which adjectives apply, as if a measure of the guy's career hangs on that single start.
The topic came up because you said he got lit up every year in the playoffs. I maintain that he didn't and as far as I'm conceerned the record shows that quite plainly. The greater point was that he was a good to very good player who was still improving and was developed by the Yankee farm system. If you still disagree so be it.
|
|
| | | 78 | Great One
ID: 1711331610
Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 13:14
|
Wang's throwing error would allow Jeff DaVanon and Steve Finley to score on Cabrera's single, giving the Angels a 4–2 lead.
|
|
| | | 79 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Tue, Dec 21, 2010, 14:27
|
Cliff Lee and Jason Werth
A quick meeting between Lee & Werth after their signings. At first I was thinking was kind of lame. But after about 35 seconds or so.
Visually its ok to watch at work, but keep the volume down (and keep out of the ears of children). I have to imagine this would be pretty close to reality.
|
|
|
|