Forum: base
Page 20180
Subject: Gurupie 20 2012 Season Discussion

  Posted by: Ref - [34731299] Tue, Mar 27, 2012, 11:48
2012 Preseason Discussion

2012 Draft Grid

The season is open!
 
1Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Mar 27, 2012, 11:57 		The waiver order was fixed yesterday. Also,I think most players will be coming off waivers around 3pm ET today. So if you have a player you want, you better get on it.
 
2Toral
      ID: 010321615
      Tue, Mar 27, 2012, 12:05 		Jim Thome, available, was drafted by bmd.
 
3Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Tue, Mar 27, 2012, 12:12 		All waiver players are currently listed as Wednesday. As I recall, waivers are for a full day, and not 24 hours. If so, then players will clear waivers after midnight (PT) tonight, and not this afternoon.
 
4Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Mar 27, 2012, 20:55 		Waiver order is all screwed up again. Not sure why.

Guru, is that initially or always? I will fix wavier order...

2: I will look into it. Once waivers run, it's pretty much over.
 
5Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Mar 27, 2012, 21:06 		Thome added to bmd's team. Looks like he jsust missed him. Thanks Toral.
 
6Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 08:20 		Why are the stats doubled in the standings link?
 
7beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 09:31 		Thanks Toral.
 
8Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 20:44 		Hmm a closer for a first round pick -- NOT!
 
9Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 20:52 		Why are the points doubled in the standings page?

Standings:

1 Toral Blues 4 2 4 2 .2000 0 0 0 0.000 0.000 4 0.0 0

Toral team stats:


Rotoline
�
Place Pts R HR RBI SB OBP K W SV ERA WHIP
Team Above � � -- -- -- -- 2 .3333 2 -- 1 -- --
Toral Blues 1st 142 2 1 2 1 .2000 0 0 0 0.000 0.000
Team Below � � 131 1 0 1 0 .0000 -- -- -- -- --
 
10 Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 21:01 		Looking for a closer for 2013 draft pick...reasonable offers only please. If not now, maybe mid season wild also work!
 
11Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Apr 01, 2012, 09:55 		I've called up Strasburg and he is no longer a prospect.

I don't know why the league page is not keeping up with transactions.
 
12Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Apr 01, 2012, 19:07 		Trade Annoucement
Ref trades Hanley Ramirez, Brandon McCarthy, Anthony Rendon (prospect) and his 2013 second rounder

BH trades Jordan Walden, Coco Crisp, Arodys Vizcaino (prospect) and his 2013 14th rounder
 
13Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Sun, Apr 01, 2012, 19:27 		Wow, that seems inbalanced to me. crisp, mcarthy and the prospects are even money, but ramirez and a 2 for walden and a 14th?
 
14Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Sun, Apr 01, 2012, 21:19 		LOL........April Fools, Nerf

You've obviously never tried to negotiate with Ref!! Hahahahahaha
 
15Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 09:40 		Tried to negotiate with me?!?!?! I am the same guy who gave away PayRod. I'll make deals if it will help my team, but not going to give away Hanley or sell him low. I had several offers for him and the best offer by far was from Tosh and that wasn't enough for me. I really don't want to trade him and think he will have a HUGE bounce back year. It's funny how much more interested people are for my players this season. Maybe it means I will have a much better season if I can stay out of the way and not mess it up. Wasn't real happy with my draft though I do like a few of them.
 
16Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 10:02 		Its even harder to get Dirk from you in hoops. Seems like each league has its own Ref is married to a particular player running joke.

I'm with you though - I'm kind of married to Longoria. I'm not sure what it would take for me to trade him. I also feel like he's a "homegrown" GO player so I have more of an attachment to him.
 
17blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 10:19 		Hey, people complained when I was attached to Matt Kemp for several years. Who's complaining now?

I wanted to make the trade even more lopsided, but didn't have Ref's roster in hand.
 
18blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 10:34 		Re 11: We are looking into the transactions issue.
 
19Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 15:45 		GO 16 - funny you mention Longoria. I contemplated an AGonz for Longoria offer......but it didn't really make sense for you positionally
 
20Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 15:50 		Okay, I was punked!

I'm not married to any of my players, but none of them are really the 'marrying type'. ;)
 
21Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 16:03 		Ref 15 - well, that crack was directed at your penchant for driving a hard bargain......so it was intended as a compliment - as anyone who has negotiated with you would know that "trade" is something you would never do.
 
22Toral
      ID: 010321615
      Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 13:12 		I am picking up Brett Lawrie from the prospect list for the second time.
 
23Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 14:12 		22: Noted.

21: I think a fair trade is one that helps both teams. It often hurts both to make a good trade--particularly one with studs involved. RE: Dirk. When he was my ONLY player, I tried hard to trade him. Twice, twarpy and I agreed to a trade in a huge Tim Duncan deal but each time he backed out of the deal when I sent him the trade offer. sometimes the best deals are the ones that don't get made! I have made some pretty awesome trades and some pretty lousy trades, but my crystal ball hasn't worked well in a long time. ;)

18: looks like it is fixed now. Thanks.
 
24Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 15:39 		From 3 closers to perhaps none:

Wilson -- traded
Madson -- tommy john
Farnsworth -- sore elbow...

All this before the season begins!
 
25Slackjawed Yokel
      ID: 38502923
      Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 22:09 		I just picked up Kipnis... Meaning he's been called up twice now.
 
26allhair allstars
      Sustainer
      ID: 50902421
      Tue, Apr 03, 2012, 23:27 		I'm calling up Des Jennings for the second time...
 
27Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 00:27 		25 and 26 noted.
 
28Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 10:29 		24: that has been my story every ssn. And just lost 1 of my 2 closers to thumb surgery. Seems like injuries kill several of us each ssn. We all have injuries, just that some of our teams aren't strong enough to overcome these hits to our core players.
 
29blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 10:31 		Yeah, but at least with Bailey you could have seen it coming...
 
30Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 18:01 		re: 29 you'd think i would learn and just cut him like I did with jared weaver and all those other guys I got scared off with their constant injuries. UGH!!! All things pointed to 1005 healthy and playing with Boston would have even more opps. Oh well. Wouldn't be much fun if it was easy!
 
31allhair allstars
      Sustainer
      ID: 50902421
      Wed, Apr 04, 2012, 19:48 		In that case, it's definitely not that much fun. ;)
 
32Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Thu, Apr 05, 2012, 12:16 		calling up prospect Dee Gordon, SS, LAD to team pd/slizz.
 
33blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Apr 05, 2012, 15:59 		Halladay gives up hits to the first two batters of the game... and then goes 8 innings with no hits and no walks. I think this trade is working out well so far.

 
34Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sat, Apr 07, 2012, 11:37 		32: noted--his first callup.
 
36Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 19:50 		Nice throwing line for my team today.

0.2 IP. 67.50 ERA. 10.50 WHIP. 1 SAVE!
 
37Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 00:23 		Team Tosh 'Player of the Week'

Fernando Rodney. 3 appearances. 1.2 IP. 1 Win. 2 Saves.

I still can't find a website that lists him as 'closer' however.
 
38blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Apr 11, 2012, 09:31 		Technically, week 1 is still going.
 
40Great One
      ID: 340592712
      Wed, Apr 11, 2012, 10:10 		Hopefully my pitching finally shows up today.
 
41beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Wed, Apr 11, 2012, 22:51 		One of these days my team will hit a homerun.
 
42judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Wed, Apr 11, 2012, 23:55 		Here are the prospects in alphabetical order: COmmish can put on website.

12.07 Yonder Alonso,1B,SD(2);
22.04 Nolan Arenado,3B,COL
22.01 Trevor Bauer,P,AZ
12.18 Tim Beckham,SS,TB;
21.18 Dellin Betances,P,NYY;
23.01 Dylan Bundy,P,BAL
19.05 Lonnie Chisenhall,3B,CLE;
18.08 Michael Choice,OF,OAK*
21.05 Gerrit Cole,P,PIT
18.10 Christian Colon, SS, KC;
18.07 Zack Cox,3B,STL ;
21.17 CJ Cron,1B,LAA;
12.08 Yu Darvish,P,TEX(1);
21.19 Nick Franklin,SS,SEA;
16.03 Devaris "Dee" Gordon,SS,LAD(1);
22.09 Anthony Gose,OF,TOR;
18.11 Grant Green,SS,OAK;
18.01 Bryce Harper,OF,Was;
18.18 Aaron Hicks,OF,MIN;
21.16 Danny Hultzen,P,SEA;
21.10 Brett Jackson,OF,CHC
15.06 Desmond Jennings,OF,TB(2);
17.03 Casey Kelly,P,BOS;
21.03 Jason Kipnis,2B,CLE(2)
19.01 Brett Lawrie,2B,TOR(2);
21.20 Hak-Ju Lee,SS,TB;
22.03 Zach Lee,P,LAD
18.06 Manny Machado,SS,Bal;
21.08 Carlos Martinez,P,STL;
19.08 Shelby Miller,SP,StL;
1.14 Tom Milone,P,OAK;
15.08 Jesus Montero,C,SEA(1);
22.06 Mike Montgomery,P,KC
18.05 William Myers,C,KC;
21.12 Jake Odorizzi,P,KC
15.09 Jarrod Parker,P,OAK;
18.04 Martin Perez,P,TEX;
19.04 Drew Pomeranz,SP,COL(1);
21.07 Jurickson Profar,SS,TEX;
21.01 Anthony Rendon,3B,WAS;
21.04 Trayvon Robinson,OF,SEA
21.13 Miguel Sano,SS,MIN
21.15 Jonathan Singleton,OF,HOU
22.02 Tyler Skaggs,P,AZ
21.06 Bubba Starling,OF,KC;
21.02 Jameson Taillon,PIT,P
15.14 Michael Taylor,OF,OAK;
18.09 Julio Teheran,P,ATL;
18.02 Mike Trout,OF,LAA;
21.09 Jacob Turner,P,DET;
15.16 Josh Vitters,3B,CHC;
22.08 Arodys Vizcaino,P,ATL
22.07 Tim Wheeler,OF,COL
22.05 Alex White,P,COL
 
43judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 00:00 		I draft Ross to cover for McCann (there was not much else left at that point in the draft so why not cover the C position and grab some stats there?) but was out when McCann was rested and Ross gets 2 RBI's. Phooey.
 
44Great One
      ID: 340592712
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 09:06 		Thats it... who wants Lincecum!?!
 
45darkside
      ID: 473521218
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 20:06 		I hear ya, Great One. I really thought with Haren, J. Johnson, and J. Zimmermann as keepers that pitching was going to be my strength, but with 55 IP under my belt I have 0 wins a 6.71 ERA and 1.85 WHIP (good for 3 total points). It's early, but I don't like it!
 
46Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 22:47 		FYI

Michael choice is now in the espn database so he loses his asterisk!!
 
47mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 16:02 		Granted Brandon Belt has started out the season 1 for 11 with 5 Ks, but I just find it hard to believe that Bochy and the Giants don't have a little more patience with their top hitting prospect.

Non starter in 4 straight and counting.
 
48Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 20:36 		Remind me please -- when will galvis be eligible for 2B in espn?? He has 7 games so far...
 
49Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 20:58 		Additional positional eligibility for Batters occurs when one of the following conditions is met:

** Games played at a position during last season: 20
** Games played at a position during current season: 10 (The eligibility will take place on the 11th day, even if no game is played that day)
 
50Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 22:05 		Thanks .. Can't wait -- Alonso too...
 
51Great One
      ID: 36214199
      Sat, Apr 14, 2012, 16:50 		Last place! Wooooooooo!!!!!!! Ugh.
 
52Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 13:26 		What are the odds?

Wilson -- traded probable TJ (sorry GO)
Madson -- TJ
Farnsworth -- out, TJ?? Or just end of career?

If you need a closer, you might want to ask someone else for advice.

That being said, I am looking for one as I type this...2013 draft pick only...
 
53Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 13:47 		Oops, wrong Casilla...
 
54Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 13:49 		Species beat me to hemree..phooey -- at 12:17 am I was asleep...
 
55Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Sun, Apr 15, 2012, 23:33 		I love closers! so reliable and consistent from year to year... Unless you got lucky and had Mariano for the last 50 years or however long he pitched.

I am not sure exactly what to do. Do I trade Wilson (and Morse?) to a rebuilding team? is anyone officially working long term? I guess email me if so.
 
56Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 00:05 		54: Don't worry Judy. The entire rest of the Giants bullpen would have to blow their arms out before Bochy would put a rookie in that role.

MAYBE in a few months. Even then he would likely stick with a mediocre veteran. We'll see.
 
57Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 16:01 		Patriots Day got me again. Every F'ing year!

Lost Shields' start.
 
58Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 23:27 		Lester, Lincecum, Moore and Carpenter. Gonna be a great starting staff I said a month ago. And Brian Wilson racking up the saves. Woo!!!
 
59Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 09:17 		You can't wait on players in this league lol. ESP with guys like YR who is in Austria and has all the info while the rest of us are sleeping!!!

Anyhow, I have two hitting keepers on my bench and two pitching keepers on the DL. Combine that with some high draft picks and other keepers not doing well yet and I am shocked I am in 5th place. Truly smoke and mirrors. I have done a really nice job with my pitching though and if not for some tough breaks, I'd have a lot more wins. I have a couple hitters who are starting to come around too. Light at the end of the tunnel???
 
60Great One
      ID: 340592712
      Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 09:18 		I think my tunnel caved in.
 
61Species
      ID: 124591311
      Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 13:35 		GO has been snakebit in this league. Seriously.

Who would guess that my team would be basically last in HR and RBI? Yikes!
 
62youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 14:14 		I don't know if it is really a plus to live in Austria. most days when the games are played I am already asleep, so I don't know the latest injury info or if my players with late games are really playing or getting benched. this makes it tougher in maxing out games played.

The plus is that most days when I get online I go through the latest news to get an up-to-date injury info. at least when available. additionally i look through the available players if someone had a good game and is therefore of interest for me. But until now I did not pick up many players because I first want to see what my current team is capable of.

it is good to see my team in the upper half. if only Johan Santana and Javy Guerra would have pitched better yesterday.
 
63judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Thu, Apr 19, 2012, 07:09 		Watched the entire Phillies game.

Lee 10 IP, 102 P, 81 strikes, 21 balls!!! He had them fooled all night!

0-1 loss.

Not sure how Bastardo run was earned as Wigginton booted a sure GDP ball at third -- or at least a force out, then Panda's liner would be right at Freddy...

Phils in last place. Amaro's pitching first theory is working for the pitchers, but this club is getting old fast. There are no hitters and Thome looks lost. With no DH in the NL, he is expected to homer each time up and it is not working. I don't see anyone to pick up to improve the hitting side of this team.

It is gonna be a long season and Charlie is gonna be really frustrated by his lack of hitters...

Rumors swirl that Hamels might want a club with more run support. He certainly has been cheated out of about a dozen wins with a lack of it... They had better sign him soon before the current situation gets worse.

Freddy Galvis is doing a great job. We really do not miss the current version of Utley. We do need the Big Man back though...
 
64Great One
      ID: 340592712
      Thu, Apr 19, 2012, 09:08 		The Phils are kind of like The E-Street Band then I guess. Who I hopefully will see rocking Citizens Bank Park in September.
 
65judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Thu, Apr 19, 2012, 10:25 		somebody 'splain this to me: Why this is an earned run...

Pitcher Change: Antonio Bastardo replaces Cliff Lee, batting 9th.
1.Brandon Crawford strikes out swinging.
2.Brandon Belt singles on a ground ball to center fielder Shane Victorino.
3.Angel Pagan reaches on fielding error by third baseman Ty Wigginton. Brandon Belt to 2nd.
4.Melky Cabrera singles on a line drive to right fielder Hunter Pence. Brandon Belt scores. Angel Pagan to 2nd.
 
66judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Thu, Apr 19, 2012, 10:27 		more from the recap:

But the ball hit the heel of Wigginton's glove and bounced out.

By the time Wigginton picked up the ball, he had no play. So instead of an inning-ending double play, the Giants had runners on first and second with one out. Melky Cabrera followed with a single to right-center field to score the winning run.

???
 
67Great One
      ID: 340592712
      Thu, Apr 19, 2012, 10:54 		I think they believe Belt would have scored had the it played out routinely. You also can't assume the double play in scoring. So I think the "error" is that he didn't at least throw out Pagan at 1st. And if Pagan scored, that would have been unearned.
 
68Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Apr 19, 2012, 14:46 		But he would have at the vey least had Belt at second, almost did after the flub... So now two out, Galvis plays in normal position and melky's hit is an out...#3.
 
69judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 20:14 		Lee goes on 15 day DL with L oblique. He has no wins so far, although he has pitched very well: 18K, 1.95, 0.70...
 
70Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 21:34 		Amazing what a 15 RBI day does for you in the standings when you were dead last in the category. Thanks Teixeira!!
 
71Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 08:32 		69: Story of my season. For instance, yesterday, all 6 of my Ps went. 4 Starters. ERs were 0,0,0,2,2,5. Guess how many wins? NONE. Saves? NONE. Oh well, my pitching has been great and hitters are coming around.
 
72Great One
      ID: 340592712
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 09:54 		I'm just hoping to pull my team ERA under 5.00 today... its the little things. Hopefully today is the first step.
 
73blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 10:19 		Rebuilding teams, I'm looking to trade off Anthony Rizzo or Randall Delgado for 2013 picks. Shoot me an email if you are interested.
 
74darkside
      ID: 263142321
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:15 		Calling up Tommy Milone for the first time.
 
75Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 23:08 		It's a good thing that the phillies are in AZ or CBPark would be empty by now. Down 0-8 in the 4th with one hit.

This is gonna be a long season. Wait until they feel the pressure and expectations of the home crowd.

There is no one in the organization available to help out -- no one.
 
76Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 23:19 		74 Noted
 
77R9
      ID: 99272420
      Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 01:36 		Woo! Trout and Harper time.

I'm calling up Trout.
 
78Blue Hen
      ID: 581352419
      Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 09:44 		Anyone want Scott Downs? Pretty awesome that I was able to get him after he was announced as closer. Usually the 2nd and 3rd options for a team are already gone. But with both Strop and Downs, I got lucky this week.
 
79Peter N.
      ID: 233202820
      Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 21:20 		Downs is named closer the day after I cut him because my OF doesn't know how to stay healthy. Awesome
 
80Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Apr 28, 2012, 21:26 		And I still have NO saves!!
 
81Great One
      ID: 450312813
      Sun, Apr 29, 2012, 11:33 		Gotta love the always reliable closers.

Thought for sure I'd move out of the cellar after my first good day... but still not out of it!
 
82Toral
      ID: 010321615
      Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 16:15 		One of the many things I like about this league is that, although it is *extremely* competitive, no one has bothered to collect the prize fees yet.
 
83Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 20:23 		77: Trout has been called up for the first time.
 
84Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 22:59 		82
???$$$???
 
85Slackjawed Yokel
      ID: 38502923
      Mon, Apr 30, 2012, 23:20 		Called up harper for first time.
 
86Great One
      ID: 573552512
      Tue, May 01, 2012, 11:19 		Now Longoria down for 2 months? I give up.

Morse, Carpenter, B Wilson and Longoria down... and Lester, Moore and Lincecum with ERA avg around 5.00. This team is awesome!
 
87R9
      ID: 99272420
      Tue, May 01, 2012, 23:14 		Lol, those names made for quite the list in February...

I got your offer GO, mulling it over.
 
88Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, May 02, 2012, 21:18 		Halladay not too sharp tonight
GS for McCann, but I sat shane 1 @ R, BI, SB...
So far...
 
89Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, May 02, 2012, 21:50 		I wish we had just one tiny DL spot...just one...pretty please???
 
90Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Wed, May 02, 2012, 22:15 		We have gigantic benches in this league. DL spots are for losers.
 
91Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, May 02, 2012, 23:08 		Whoa...
 
92beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, May 03, 2012, 22:43 		Lol at Vernon Wells batting in the #2 hole. Who in their right mind would ever think that's a good place to put a guy with an OBP of less than .250 the past 2 years?
 
93R9
      ID: 99272420
      Thu, May 03, 2012, 23:47 		Its really mind boggling. With all that talent in their lineup, Wells should be a part-time player, not their full-time #2 hitter. Where do I apply to be a MLB manager?
 
94beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, May 04, 2012, 09:33 		That coupled with the Napoli debacle and I think somebody is a tad bit overrated. All these "old school" managers are terrible at game decisions. The fact that sacrifice bunting is still a big part of the game is pretty telling. It's been proven over and over again that most sacrifice bunts actually hurt teams.

 
95Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 00:34 		Can trade starting pitching for some saves.
 
96Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 03:29 		94: I don't disagree......but gotta ask....is LaRussa in that category?
 
97blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 09:57 		Who's happy with their G20 team so far?

I know I am. The hitting is about where I expected, with some (Kemp, Reddick, Altuve) better than expected and a couple (Hosmer, Bautista) a little worse. Pitching has been good, especially if Sale and Cashner actually become closers this week, as predicted. I could use a boost in that area after the Anaheim fiasco. It's good to see some new faces near the top - particularly Jaydog, who has remade his team.
 
98blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 09:59 		Also, it's kind of funnny to hear Ref asking for saves...
 
99Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 10:07 		How did I wind up with Middlebrooks? Was he not highly touted? I know he was picked in our Poli prospect draft, thought he'd be owned here.
 
100beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 13:56 		Super happy with my pitching so far. Morrow, Lynn, Samardziji, Nolasco, and Verlander. My hitting sucks as usually but I'm going to hoard a bunch of guys with the hopes some of them start producing. They should at least help with off days and my counting stats.

Hope Werth finds a good home. I couldn't justify keeping a guy that will be out 12 weeks and probably shouldn't have been kept this year.
 
101Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Tue, May 08, 2012, 19:41 		I didn't expect much from this team and they are delivering as I expected. Starting pitching is good, but relievers have layed an egg. It's going to take alot of innings to overcome what Melancon did in three outings. I'm good in HR and RBI but not so good in the other categories. I have 4 offensive players who are vastly underperforming right now and they have to get things turned around. Alvarez is turning out to be a good late-round pick.

I'm 16th right now and I think this team can get better if I can get the relievers and my infield settled in.
 
102R9
      ID: 99272420
      Wed, May 09, 2012, 00:58 		#99, I almost picked him up a couple weeks ago when Youk went down, but the reports said he probably wouldn't go on the DL and I didn't want to give up on my other young'ins. Doh. :(

My pitching has been about what I expected, although losing Pineda sucked. I got a pretty good SP arm in Beachy, two great closers and maybe a 3rd great closer by the end of the year.

Hitting has sucked, even worse then I was expecting. Goldschmidt has been dissapointing (though that wasn't entirely unexpected) and Morrison too. Utley is useless and Mauer almost as much. I'm banking alot next year on Moosetacos (nice surprise so far) Trout and Trumbo (also a nice surprise, how about playing him a bit more Mr. Scioscia?). I've had so many duds that I picked up Billy Hamilton as a maybe keeper...
 
103R9
      ID: 99272420
      Wed, May 09, 2012, 01:00 		Oh, and Dylan Bundy for President.
 
104blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, May 09, 2012, 09:57 		Two years ago it was Morrison. Last year it was Goldschmidt. This year, it's Billy Hamilton. I see a trend here.
 
105Species
      ID: 124591311
      Wed, May 09, 2012, 17:33 		NOT pleased about Billy hamilton being picked up
 
106beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, May 10, 2012, 10:31 		I don't even bother trying to look for young guys in the minors anymore. I know if any of them have any shot at being decent they're either a few years away or already on R9 or bh's roster. Sometimes they fit into both those categories :)
 
107Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, May 11, 2012, 13:40 		My starting pitching has been HUGE! Shocked about my sudden penthouse to outhouse in saves. OBP has been lower than I thought but beggers...
 
108Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, May 12, 2012, 23:28 		Wow --
Halladay and Lee have not won in their last nine starts...due to lousy Philly run support.
Wonder what Hamels is thinking...?
 
109Great One
      ID: 450312813
      Sun, May 13, 2012, 08:59 		Hamels is thinking he should go to Boston who freed up money for him by letting Papelbon walk...
 
110Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, May 14, 2012, 11:29 		Apparently not everyone is receiving email via ESPN email site.
 
111blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 14, 2012, 14:18 		The list of email addresses is available on the ESPN site, in the message forum.
 
112Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Mon, May 14, 2012, 14:27 		Max and Pace always seems out of what to me on ESPN. And I wish they were on the main page for day to day monitoring.
 
113Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Mon, May 14, 2012, 14:27 		out of whack...
 
114youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Mon, May 14, 2012, 17:16 		looks like "max & pace" counts calendar days instead of games played and with this years opening series 1 week ahead the numbers are much more off than in the past where only the All-Star-Break were off days.

to make it easier: today the season is 21.2% complete (515 of 2430 games) which is exactly my pace at innings pitched (296.2 of 1400) or 36 games at any position.
 
115blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, May 14, 2012, 17:43 		Re 114: That's a great idea and I passed it along. Unless there's some significant technical hurdle, I suspect that will get updated eventually.
 
116Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Tue, May 15, 2012, 18:24 		Derek Lowe, Cle�SP
W 5-0. 9.0 6 0 4 0 1 0 0.00 1.11

Seriously? A CG with no K 's??
 
117Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, May 15, 2012, 19:02 		From Yahoo:

"He became the first pitcher to throw a shutout without a strikeout since Scott Erickson for Baltimore against Kansas City on April 28, 2002."
 
118Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 08:35 		Who is this unlucky SP?

Answer to be revealed in the 7th inning...

37.0 IP 24 H 8 R 4 BB 34 K 0 W 0 S 1.95 ERA 0.76 WHIP
 
119Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 09:24 		10 games is pretty stiff to get eligibility...
 
120blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 09:49 		Really? I think it's pretty lenient, personally.
 
121youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 13:26 		I think 10 games is ok. also because it does not mean that the player needs to start, he simply has to appear at that position during a game.

Where I not agree is how some player positions are determined before the season. take for example Jesus Montero:
In the minor leagues he played primarily at catcher. Every site had him as a catcher. He gets called up in September plays 18 games, a few of them as a catcher, the rest at DH. He loses eligibility, despite being listed at backup catcher on the Mariners depth chart all off-season. I had to wait for about 25 days until he got eligible, but only because Olivo got injured, otherwise he might still be a DH only. I am sure that if he would not be the #1 DH on the depth chart he would have been eligible at catcher.

I don't know how other September call ups were treated, but Montero is a special case being a catcher in the AL and with a playoff team (Yankees). non-playoff teams tend to play their callups more often, in the NL there are more pinch hitting possibilities and you rarely put a young catcher out there when you are still in the playoff hunt and have a healthy #1.
 
122Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 13:28 		I agree with you YR, thats a good case for arguement.

If its only 10 "appearances" I can live with it. I think yahoo is 5 starts or 10 appearances.
 
123Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 13:34 		That's exactly right, GO. Yahoo uses 5/10. Which is probably a better way to do it.

YR's points are good ones. I would hope that ESPN would adjust beginning-of-season positional eligibility to account for depth chart positions, to allow for the same flexibility that is reflected on the real MLB teams. A player listed first or second on an official team depth chart at the beginning of the season should gain eligibility at that position automatically.
 
124blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 16:09 		So basically, you want to cheat and put a DH into your catcher slot?
 
125Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 16:11 		Nah. He wants to put a catcher into a catcher spot sooner than a slow ESPN recognizes that he is, in fact, a catcher.
 
126youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 17:34 		its hard to find a good list of September call-ups but the 4th player I looked at already falls into the category of having played less then 10 games at a position but still was eligible there at the start of this season: Conor Gillaspie / 3B. why?

more players:
John Baker / 1 game as catcher in 2011 (more games at C prior to 2011)
Taylor Green / 7 games as 2nd baseman in 2011
Martin Maldonado / 3 games as catcher in 2011
Logan Schafer / 2 games as outfielder in 2011

why were they eligible at their positions and Jesus Montero not? I have no clue other than Jesus Montero got a lot more starts and his ratio between DH and C was 14:3. and that he was the starting DH and "only" the backup catcher at the start of this season.
 
127Da Bomb
      Donor
      ID: 487112814
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 20:29 		Those are all NL players.
 
128Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 22:50 		Answer to 118:
Cliff Lee...
 
129Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, May 16, 2012, 23:29 		Vote for Carlos Ruiz for the starting all star catcher.

Vote early and vote often!!

Thanks.
 
130Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, May 17, 2012, 08:45 		I'll take Yadier.
 
131blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, May 17, 2012, 09:55 		Re 125: I'd support a rule that you could only start a guy at catcher on nights he started for his team at catcher. So you'd basically get Montero for nights that he caught, but you couldn't use him for your catcher slot 140 games if he only caught 60.

Of course, that's a mess all around - technology, roster management, etc.
 
132Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, May 17, 2012, 19:01 		Carlos Ruiz, Phi�C�
37/108 19 7 24 8 0 .388

Yadier Molina, StL�C
37/123 19 4 19 9 4 .351

Really?
 
133Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 09:01 		Yadier is also a superior defensive player.

But I'd put money on Yadier finishing the season with better offensive stats. His numbers aren't propped up by a couple fluky games.
Philly fans just constantly overrate Ruiz.
There is a reason he generally goes undrafted in fantasy leagues. But cause of a good start he will likely make the all star game, so good for him.
 
134blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 10:09 		Actually, I'm a Philly fan and I'd say Ruiz is generally underrated. I have him in at least one league a year (including this year).

However, Yadier is better - better track record and better defensively. Granted, Yadier is also occasionally overrated as well.
 
135Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 10:19 		We will agree to disagree. And compare notes as the season progresses:

"Ruiz, remarkably, ranks in the National League's top 10 for batting average, on-base percentage, and slugging percentage. He's the only catcher to rank that high."
 
136Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 10:27 		Yes, he's had a great start to the season. He is sure to have a career year and surpass his 9 HR and 54 RBI career highs. I only know how low those are cause I word for word heard a Phillies fan claim their offense would be ok while they waited on Utley/Howard "cause Chooch will get his usual 15-20 HR's and 70-80 RBI's..." which made me crack up.

I also always hear how great he is in the playoffs - but he's a .250 lifetime playoff hitter.
So he had some big moments that stick in peoples minds, but he also has disappeared plenty too.
 
137Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 10:51 		Philly fans love Chooch but its a stetch to say they overrate him and its a bigger stretch to say he 'generally' goes undrafted. In RIBC he went in 4/5 drafts and there were 8 different catchers that went later than him on average. In some leagues 9-10 catchers went after him meaning he's about middle of the pack.

Is he playing well over his head? Sure is. But does he deserve serious consideration for the Allstar ballot? Sure does this year. He's putting up better offensive numbers than any other catcher in the game right now.

He's tied for 4th most runs among catchers (and 2 of the catchers ahead of him put in a lot of time at DH/1st), tied for 2nd most HR, 1st in rbi's and 1st in BA (by 30 points), 2nd in OBP and 1st in slg (by almost 100 points).

He's doing all that for a team that is middle of the pack in production.

Defensively, he has a better caught stealing % than Yadier Molina (4th overall). Yes, he's allowed 20 SB to Molina's 15 but there's also been 32 attempts on Ruiz to only 22 on Yadier. Yet he's throwing out a higher % than yadier.


 
138Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 11:15 		Well RIBC is a bit different cause its very deep, he was routinely undrafted in standard 12 team leagues.

Yahoo draft results page indicates he was picked in only 11% of standard leagues. He finished 2011 as the 17th ranked catcher overall so why would he be picked? cause he calls a good game?

As far as defense - the problem with Molina is nobody but the best base stealers even attempt to steal off him anymore. Career %'s? Molina has thrown out 43% and Ruiz has thrown out 27% of base stealers. The league avg. the last 10 years in 32%. So Ruiz has had a nice start, much like his hitting. But is historically below avg at his position.
 
139Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 11:32 		To me, the Allstar game is about the current. Currently, this year, Ruiz is the best catcher out there. He's doing better than Molina. I wouldn't have a problem with either in the Allstar game but based on how this year is going, Ruiz should get the starting nod over Molina.
 
140Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 12:02 		Thats fine, no doubt he's had the better start and I guess the ASG is about who has been good for 2-3 months ala Jair Jurrjens last year.

And he'll get voted in too cause the Phillies lead the league in attendance there is no worry for Judy to campaign like she is.
That machine got Polanco voted in last year cause of a good April when Chipper, Aramis and Headley were more deserving....
 
141blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 12:52 		Also, I'd like to put Carlos Ruiz into my shortstop slot, but ESPN won't let me...
 
142Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 14:29 		Yeah, that makes sense.
And a guy like Montero that starts like 100 games each of the last 2 seasons in the minors at Catcher... but gets called up to be a bat off the bench in Sept. should lose that eligibility. Its a very shortsighted point of view.
 
143Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 15:16 		That's one of the oddities of position eligibilty. You have to wait 10-20 days for a player to gain eligibility if he's on a new position to start the year - or worse the Montero case, but on the flip side once he gets those 10 or 20 games, he's good for that position until October of the following year, regardless if he doesn't play there at all the next season.

What I'd really wish is for game sites to allow the leagues themselves to decide what position eligibility is.
 
144Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, May 18, 2012, 15:40 		There is a player I planned on keeping this ssn, but he lost h is 1b elig and was going OF only and I couldn't hold another OF. His PT was suspect int he OF as well. His team decided to put him back at 1b and he's doing really well. Sometimes the soundest strategy fails.
 
145Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, May 19, 2012, 20:34 		New discussion...

Love what Freddy Galvis is is doing...

Sorta hope that Utley does not come back... Hard to say that but Galvis is our future...
 
146R9
      ID: 99272420
      Mon, May 21, 2012, 01:57 		Chase Utley and Joe Mauer available for a bag of hockey pucks. One bag each though please.

Oh, and how about that Mike Trout?
 
147Jaydog
      ID: 14242320
      Wed, May 23, 2012, 21:24 		Im announcing the call up of prospect Jarrod Parker. Looking forward to seeing what the kid can bring to the big club!
 
148judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Thu, May 24, 2012, 12:23 		Cliff Lee's non winning season is Killing me (in RIBC too)... When will he get his first win??? He should have at least 5 wins by now... sheesh!
 
149R9
      ID: 99272420
      Thu, May 24, 2012, 23:48 		Dempster has been even more unlucky.
 
150blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 10:10 		Anybody looking to make a deal? I'm looking to add another starting pitcher or closer. Let me know if you have something in mind.
 
151 beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 13:01 		I need a power hitter, preferably 1b, OF, or catcher. Would rather deal with a non contender than bh who will probably want Verlander :)
 
152Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 17:56 		Dempster has never been lucky -- he's a Cubbie...
 
153Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 22:51 		Once again Lee does not get a win... The guy has got to be frustrated,especially since both shane and hunter lost fly balls in the sky for a run...
 
154Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 10:03 		Sweet night last night- homers from Braun, Stanton, Reddick, and Pierzynski (plus JD Martinez on my bench) and then saves from Myers and Downs.

I wish every night could be like that...
 
155Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, May 27, 2012, 22:00 		Bh
Halladay is down...
 
156Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, May 28, 2012, 16:02 		Wigginton on on the bench with 6 RBI...
 
157darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Mon, May 28, 2012, 17:14 		Sorry about picking up Chisenhall. Didn't even think to check the prospect list.
 
158 Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, May 28, 2012, 21:21 		After a nice run, it might be time for me to blow up my team. Nearly everyone is available:

Adrian Gonzalez
Mark Teixeira
Alex Rodriguez
Curtis Granderson
Ian Desmond (maybe)
CC Sabathia
Matt Capps
Jason Hammel
Kyle Drabek

Basically anyone but Felix, Upton and probably Robertson. In return I am seeking top tier prospects, 2014 picks, prospect picks, etc.
 
159judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Tue, May 29, 2012, 17:12 		Halladay out 6 - 8 weeks, gonna hurt someone's pitching stats...
 
160blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, May 29, 2012, 17:39 		Sure will. If he wins, does that make it even more special?
 
161Species
      ID: 124591311
      Tue, May 29, 2012, 18:12 		.......or if he arrogantly refuses to address his pitching and doesn't join in the Species sell-off, how long will he regret the missed opportunity to join the back-to-back club?
 
162Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Tue, May 29, 2012, 22:40 		The back to back club is cool. But you know what's really cool? The back to back to back club. Also winning once but doing it arrogantly is pretty fun.

Yes, I'm in the market for a pitcher. Pretty much anyone but Stanton and Braun can be had, but your best bet is probably a trade for Josh Reddick.
 
163Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, May 29, 2012, 23:47
TRADE BULLETIN

Toral sends:

Jurickson Profar (prospect)
Wil Hayes (prospect)
2012 1st and 2nd round prospect draft choices
Justin Smoak
Quintin Berry
Shawn Camp

to Species for:

Adrian Gonzalez
Matt Capps
Lance Berkman

 
164Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 00:01 		Confirmed.
 
165Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 00:02 		.....although that's Wil Myers, not Hayes :)
 
166beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 01:05 		Holy crap. Jump the gun much Species?
 
167Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 09:27 		FYI - Molina now has more HR's, 2B's, RBI, Runs, Walks, SB's than Ruiz (better AVG/OBP). 1 more game played.
 
168Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 09:28 		I remember back when I traded A-Rod for DiceK and Alex Gordon and a pick (Broxton). Memories.
 
169blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 09:46 		Nice trade all around. I think Species probably got the better end (really like both Profar and Myers), but Toral definitely got what he needed and is a force to be reckoned with this season. I love that two of the actual players Toral traded are guys he picked up in the last week. Probably just to even out the numbers.
 
170Species
      ID: 124591311
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 15:02 		166: Perhaps, bmd, perhaps.....but I channeled my inner Ricky Bobby: "if you ain't first, you're last" and decided to punt......don't feel this is my year. My Yankees could get hot and move me up, but I'm just feeling that I don't have the horses this year, and that age is catching up with guys like ARod (as an obvious example).

Not that Toral was at all unaware of the rather prolific seasons being put up by Profar and Myers, but the longer the season went, if they continued their paces, I felt that a deal like this wouldn't necessarily still be there in a few weeks. These 2 were amongst my most desired prospects, and Toral was a perfect fit with his need at 1b.

Bh: I see a perfect win-win. It's not like Gonzalez is over the hill......it fit his team perfectly and I got strong future value. A good, fair trade.

Sabathia, Teixeira and Granderson can be yours next.
 
171Species
      ID: 124591311
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 17:20 		169: And your assumption about the throw-in players was accurate. I wanted Smoak (worth one last flier) but the other two were his drops.
 
172Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, May 30, 2012, 21:08 		Cliff Lee winless again, 2 R PH HR by Ruiz to tie it. Ruiz PH for Lee...
 
173Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 09:32 		I think Smoak likes sticking it to the Rangers when he goes back there. Him being traded from Texas to Seattle was another killer for my franchise. Spoiled my well laid plans.

A pain Yonder Alonso and Latos owners this offseason can relate too.
 
174blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 10:08 		Heh, Smoak's not much to complain about these days, especially today...
 
175Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 13:40 		Yeah, I should have specified that the trade was not to be effective until Smoak returns to Seattle.

It would be very entertaining for you kibitzers if Smoak were better than Gonzalez the remainder of the season.
 
176Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 13:46 		Thanks for making me look up "kibitzer" to find out if I was being insulted :0
 
177blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 13:50 		You weren't. At least not with any kind of punch. I think this epitomizes what we all think about in this league: Justin Smoak is on the way up, and Adrian Gonzalez is on the way down. Those are facts, but there are a thousand details that matter. How fast are those two things happening? How high will Smoak go? When? Health issues? Stadiums? Batting order? Surrounding lineup?

In the game of life, time always wins.
 
178Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 14:19
In the game of life, time always wins.
True. But...Flags Fly Forever.
 
179Species
      ID: 124591311
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 16:48 		Saying Smoak is on the way up is akin to saying the GDP going up .01% is the sign of a trend. Perhaps he can be a late bloomer.....but I put VERY LITTLE value on Smoak when considering the trade. Not zero, but I did want him as a live body at 1b with some possible upside.
 
180Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, May 31, 2012, 20:23 		Smoak's never hit for average, and never been a home run hitter. Might as well pick up a third-tier second baseman.

Adrian G is probably on his way down, but since he's at least three times the player Smoak is we've got a bit of time before they reach parity.
 
181Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 08:54 		I think he could hit 30 HR's if he weren't stuck in Seattle.

And is avg isn't really the whole story since we are OBP -- and his OBP is almost 100 points higher than his AVG so he does walk a good amount. If that AVG just gets respectable like .250 his OBP would carry him. In the minors he as like a .280/.400 obp guy.

I don't think he's a James Loney type no power 1B who hurts you at the position.
 
182judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 16:18 		Just did a few calculations -- what ifs as it were.

If Cliff Lee had 6 wins (not unlikely in a normal season) and I had 6 saves (also not unlikely in a normal season), I would gain 11.5 points, but would move up only two places in the standings...from 14 to 12th.

Weird...
 
183blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 16:48 		Judy, I think Tommy Hanson got the win in one of Lee's losses, so that one can't count for you.
 
184Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 23:34 		I may have to do a "Species" very soon too. I have no chance with my current lineup. I was holding out hope I could get something done to have a fighting chance of competing, but it doesn't seem to be out there.
 
185beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 22:29 		Did we ever collect fees for this year?
 
186Great One
      ID: 36214199
      Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 23:16 		Ellsbury for Lincecum with Pete. Sorry BH!

Looking to move an OF for a veteran non keeper pitcher type.
 
187Pete N.
      ID: 34539222
      Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 23:39 		Confirmed seq 186 with GO.
 
188Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 00:04 		Pete, why don't you tell everyone why you like Lince so much...
 
189Pete N.
      ID: 34539222
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 11:36 		He's short and he's white. Given that I'm a short white guy, much respect for Lince!
 
190Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 12:11 		Are you skinny too?

 
191Pete N.
      ID: 34539222
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 14:01 		Lol, not that skinny!
 
192Great One
      ID: 450312813
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 14:57 		Well I did tell Pete he could probably sell him to BH in exchange for a well paying job at ESPN, 2 goats and Matt Kemp. So that helped his value.
 
193Pete N.
      ID: 34539222
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 18:14 		Trade Alert

I send bh my 1st round pick next year + Herrera for Reddick + bh's 10th round pick next year. Bh to confirm.
 
194Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 18:36 		Confirmed. Anyone got a closer?
 
195blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 11:05 		Re: 192 Don't underestimate the value of 2 goats.
 
196Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 09:56 		ESPN doesn't have a "Roster Grid" type page like CBS did, right? Just want to make sure I am not missing it. Always found that easier to scope out some trading partners.
 
197Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 09:57 		ah... League page - Rosters looks pretty good
 
198blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 10:02 		Yeah, happy with that particular functionality.
 
199Species
      ID: 124591311
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 13:29 		184: Has that evolved from doing a "Twarpy"??? ;-)
 
200blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 17:17 		Yo slacker commishes, you gonna update the league page with my trade? Get on it!

 
201Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 21:24 		And once again, Lee will not get a win on pitch #126. Shoulda put Mayberry in LF for defense... At least I had billingsley so maybe he will get the win...

Was at the game Sunday and frankly looking at the lineup there is not one person in it that looks threatening in any way.
 
202Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 22:01 		Lee was great tonight. Good night from my hitting: a .478 average tonight!
 
203Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 23:03 		Sorry, Judy. Was rooting for a win from Lee (finally!). He was looking good enough tonight, that's for sure.
 
204mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 16:00 		Re:201

Wasn't that the day the mighty Hector Luna batted cleanup?
 
205Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 19:17 		Updated my trading block. I have lots of hitting available: Teixeira, Granderson, Quentin, ARod. Pretty much every pitcher but Felix is available as well.
 
206Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 11:05 		G20 baseball dues time again!

I totally spaced out on this. Usually, we collect this at the beginning of the season. But better late than never.

Contributions to the prize pool will again be $15 per head. All members of the league are participants in the prize pool, and are required to continue each year. Nerfherders was given a one year deferral last year, but he�ll need to decide now whether he�s in our out.

In addition to the prize pool, we collect dues each year to cover league hosting costs and a trophy. Since we are no longer paying a fee to CBS, we are assessing only $2 per head for dues this year. This pays for the draft at Draftime, and also for a trophy to be purchased at the end of the season for the winner.

So, the total amount to be paid is $17. If you are sending this via Paypal, please send it to davehall@rotoguru2.com, and designate it as a �Personal Transfer �payment owed�. This should eliminate any fees charged. In the message � simply say G20 dues.

If you are sending by check, please email me and I'll provide the mailing address.

Species, Blue Hen, Rogue 9, Darkside, Toral, and BMD have enough money on account to cover the payment, so they owe nothing.

I believe everyone else owes the full $17. If you think you have funds on account that I may have overlooked, please ask.

Please send in your dues payment as soon as possible.

 
207mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 15:10 		(206) Tried that and a fee would have been added by Paypal.

If you send it as a payment for personal services, no fee.
 
208Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 16:58 		The phillies roster is full of bench players. What on earth are we doing relying on qualls. He stinks -- over and over. Pretty soon CB Park will be empty...
 
209Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 22:19 		and I can go to a game cheap!
 
210blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 10:08 		Hey Great One, there's another baseball team on the way to Citizens Bank. You can actually see it off the highway. And it's much more affordable.
 
211Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 10:16 		Yeah, but they killed Kahunaville
 
213Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 22:26 		What a shame. Freddy Galvis is reported to have a pars fracture in his back. Google research says months in a brace to heal it. What a downer. He was doing a great job for a 22 year old thrown into the lineup... At least we know that when utley is gone, he will fill in fine...

Official word to come probably Saturday.

Feel so sorry for him. A bright light in this dismal season.
 
214Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 22:44 		The guy hitting .226 AVG (.254 OBP) was a bright light?
 
215Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 08:34 		His defense was absolutely stellar -- better than utley and he was learning to hit -- his AB had more solid contact...he wasn't supposed to be in the bigs for a few more years...for a bit he was fifth among 2B in RBI's. He is ninth now...4 behind Cano just to give you a point of reference...
 
216Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 08:36 		Also remember we are talking about the dismal Phillies. There is no one in the lineup to replace his defense at 2B until/if utley gets back...
 
217Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 09:19 		Yeah, I heard Philly sports radio callers saying that they were better off without Utley when Galvis has his hot 3 week stretch in mid May with 18 of those 24 RBI's. Which I thought was ridiculous. Cause he was about a .200 hitter the month before and since then.

He's a great defensive player but never considered a good hitter (according to Baseball America). Career minor league .246 hitter. How is he not ready for the majors though? He's been in the minors since 2006 - He's supposed to get more than 6 years to come up through the system? He's the Phillies version of Rey Ordonez. He is what he is. Good at defense and a .250 hitter if he's lucky.
 
218Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 09:32 		Prospects - Gerrit Cole and Casey Kelly could be available for a good (non-keeper caliber) starting pitcher and/or closer or upgrade a hitter.
 
219Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 16:51 		E4 on an inning ending DP ball by fontenot...1 run scores...

I tell ya, we will miss Freddy's defense. The kid is 22. I agree all field with minimal hit, but ya gotta plug holes -- literally where you can.
 
220Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 17:10 		E4 by fontenot, another run scores...jroll robbed by umpire on play at 2B. Phillies losing, all Balt. Runs unearned....
 
221Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jun 09, 2012, 21:07 		Good to see Thome cranking one.
 
222Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 15:49 		And cliff lee is not a winner again -- his fault this time though...

Although carlos was up three times with bases loaded two outs and all we got was a run on a PB...
 
223Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 18:20 		Let's stop talking about real baseball and start talking about our G20 teams! I am looking to trade a prospect pick for a 2013 draft pick- let me know if you are interested!
 
224Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 23:10 		Ok now. Why is it that baseball players do so much spitting? You don't see that in any other sport. My brother was a LL pitcher 20 years ago and after every strike he spat?? Huh?

Any thoughts? If you played, did you spit too?
 
225Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 23:10 		Make that 50 years ago for my brother...
 
226Toral
      ID: 35518118
      Mon, Jun 11, 2012, 09:18 		Baseball players used to have to spit a lot because they chewed tobacco.

Health concerns caused them to give up the chaw, but baseball is a very traditional sport and they decided to retain the spitting....
 
227Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Mon, Jun 11, 2012, 09:18 		Cause in baseball you can aren't out of breath all the time or a swallowing danger and can be chewing dip, gum or sunflower seeds.
 
228Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Mon, Jun 11, 2012, 16:36 		I need to be reminded of the prospect rules for this league. How many prospects are we allowed to have?
 
229Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Jun 11, 2012, 20:56 		At the prospect keeper deadline, no team may have more than 3 prospects.

If you have traded away any prospect picks (like I have), you must reduce your prospect keepers by the number of prospect picks you have traded.
 
230R9
      ID: 99272420
      Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 09:58 		So.... how about that Mike Trout? ;)
 
231blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 12:58 		Again, I am looking for gains this year, or immediate gains next year. I am not interested in either keeping my prospects (Dellin Betances and Arodys Vizcaino) or in prospect picks this year. If you can offer help this season (closer or SP or some position upgrade), or picks for next season, all of my prospects and prospect picks are available.
 
232Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 13:38 		I have decided that having 5 closers is enough. 2013 job security is iffy at best for all of them, so plan on them being a one-year rental.

I would seek Starting pitching, or a hitter with speed (SBs)
 
233Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 21:31 		Looks like thome was a great pick up for me!!!
 
234Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 09:18 		Cain rockets Team Hall into first...
 
235Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 10:43 		When is the prospect keeper declaring and then the actual draft?
 
236blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 11:13 		Yeah, that's been impressive for Team Hall - he's got the four-homer guy and the perfect game guy. In some spots he's been lucky (Paulino, Dempster, Cueto, Jeter) but he's got some formidable firepower elsewhere - Bruce, Votto, Yadier, Phillips. It's good to see a new face at the top.

I'm probably more scared of Toral, who now sits in 3rd place with very little production out of Upton, Lawrie, and Gallardo. When those guys heat up, look out.

And let's not forget Tosh, who has a full team of ex-BHers: Konerko, AJones, Asdrubal, DHudson, Rodney.

Should be a fun year from here on out.
 
237Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 21:01 		ANOTHER 3 run shot by Thome!!

WOW!!
 
238beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jun 14, 2012, 23:24 		Damn, Axford can't catch a break. I think bh cursed him because I said I wouldn't trade him.
 
239blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 11:37 		Likely what happened. I think you said he was untouchable. And now K-Rod has been picked up in every one of my leagues.
 
240beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Jun 16, 2012, 01:04 		Untouchable meant you weren't going to be getting him in a trade. As far as his pitching, he's been anything but untouchable this year.
 
241Great One
      ID: 450312813
      Sat, Jun 16, 2012, 12:26 		Thome is no Plouffe... what has this guy been drinking the last month? 9 HR's in June so far?
 
242Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 16, 2012, 20:08 		Axford can't catch a break?

What about Lee who continues to lose games, sometimes his fault, sometimes not.

The phillies are toast. They need to play .667 ball the rest of the way to get a wild card. I will assume that Los bravos and the stinkin' Nats will not be folding anytime soon.

I really blame utley for not working out over the winter and coming in to spring training not ready to play. He is done as well.

We are fielding a bench quality team for our starters and bull pen and it shows. I feel for Charlie and hope he does not get the blame. He has nothing to work with...Victorino has turned into mr first pitch pop up... Good bye...Dom is injured -- again...

And at this rate we will lose Hamels as well...making next year more of same...
 
243R9
      ID: 99272420
      Sat, Jun 16, 2012, 21:01 		Ugh, Beachy out of the game. There goes his elbow.

Anderson, Pineda, Beachy... I think I'm going to stop keeping SP's altogether.
 
244Toral
      ID: 35518118
      Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 01:10 		Lee looked in control and headed for a win in the 8th. Then the Phils started to throw the ball around the park.
 
245blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jun 19, 2012, 17:43 		Welp, Freddy Galvis isn't going to be any use to anyone for a while.
 
246Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Tue, Jun 19, 2012, 21:06 		My G20 team is mirroring the phillies...

Good thing Galvis is on the DL...
 
247blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 17:21 		It looks like the message thread with league email addresses got erased. Can we list that on RG somewhere and link to it from the league home?

I also can't find the league records. We should do the same.

Looking into the message board issue too.
 
248blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 18:02 		The addresses were in a thread from last year's game. You can still get there through history, but I made a post for this year and copied them over. Still don't know about league records.
 
249blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 12:59 		Smack talk?
 
250Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 23:50 		Jason Hammel (2.87 ERA, 1.16 WHIP) and, upon his return from injury Ted Lilly (3.14 ERA, 1.13 WHIP) are available for trade.
 
251Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 19:41 		The paplebon I've been seeing does not look worth $50 million and the potential and future loss of cole Hamels because we can now not afford him. What a stupid mistake to pay so much for a closer...
 
252Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 23:35 		Blows his first save as a Phillie and has a 2.28 ERA... and you want to dump him?

How about bitching at Joe Blanton for making 10.5 or Rollins for 11 at his advanced age.
 
253Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 07:58 		I miss the "old" league where we were trading willy-nilly and the smack talk was abound. It was like the real league--a top team made a trade and another top team went out and countered by making another trade. Meanwhile the bottom teams were stocking up on picks, while the top teams were mortgaging their future.

My real life is just absolutely nuts right now, but I have been able to at least check in daily.

Guru, can you send me your address please.
 
254Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 08:55 		Not a whole lot can top last years arms race, so its a lot to live up to.
 
255Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 11:20 		Yeah, last year I traded for Putz, Hudson, and Beckett and Species traded for CC, Valverde, Rajai, and Berkman. No way that happens this year. Short of dealing for a closer, my big moves are going to be getting Halladay and Kemp back.
 
256Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 11:29 		And here's some smack talk. Hey 12 teams that are still behind Species- you want to pick it up a bit? He already said he was throwing in the towel. You really want to finish behind THAT?
 
257Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 14:24 		I'll be passing Species before its all said and done. So there you go.
 
258Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 15:10 		All my last year's draft picks are currently helping other teams...

I knew it would be bad, but Lee still w/o a win certainly does not help; he tries again tonight...

I am not even sure that I have 8 keepers for 2013 on my current roster! Ugh!
 
259Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jun 24, 2012, 21:33 		And cliff lee does not win and probably loses another...

Hamels pitched brilliantly and the BP blew it, again...
 
260blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 10:08 		This year, Great One? Are you changing your five year plan into a three year plan? Or a ten year plan?
 
261Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 10:14 		Well assuming I don't have a massive sell off I'll pass him this year. I'm not sure exactly what I plan to do just yet.
 
262Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 21:41 		Trade announcement!

Tosh receives:
BH 1st round prospect pick
Coco Crisp

BH receives
Heath Bell
 
263Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 21:56 		Confirmed.
 
264mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 22:53 		Wicked goodby kiss.
 
265Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 23:09 		Yeah, I probably should have raised the price after that stinker. But Bell's good- he'll be fine.
 
266Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 23:56 		Still looking to trade some or all of my remaining prospect picks, perhaps for 2013 supplemental picks. Send offers if you have them.
 
267blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 10:14 		Team Slizz/PD, please get Frank Francisco out of your lineup.
 
268blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 17:05 		Team Slizz/PD, please get Frank Francisco out of your lineup.
 
269Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 17:51 		Done. Won't take effect until tomorrow.
 
270 beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Wed, Jun 27, 2012, 23:47 		Throwing in the towel this year. Everybody available. Got an assortment of hitter and pitchers so any contender could benefit in a trade. Looking for picks or youth.
 
271Great One
      ID: 29557289
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 10:57 		Species within 10 points... this may be sooner than initially anticipated :)

I love that all my pitchers allowed 3-4 runs and my overall ERA went down. Thats how ridiculous this start has been.
 
272Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 09:37 		Isn't this the weekend that prospects have to be renounced/called up if we are planning to open up additional prospect room on our rosters?
 
273Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 10:42 		272: It's 1 week before the All-Star game. When's the All-Star game this year?
 
274beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 11:22 		We really need to do something about the ever diluting prospect pool for the prospect draft. I'd like to see a rule that if you pick up a minor league player between the supplemental draft and the prospect draft that player is eligible to be drafted as a prospect if he has not been called up at any time during the year.

 
275mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 14:21 		I agree. Is hoarding potential prospect picks a strategy we want to be used?

It's already hard enough to rebuild.
 
276Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 15:18 		How 'bout a rule that you can have one such player, but if you have more than one the excess have to be made available for the prospect draft?

Allow one on spec, but prevent anyone from stocking his whole bench with such folk.
 
277Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 16:40 		[206] Prize pool payments not yet received from:
GoatLocker
Nerf
Pete N.
Ref
Slizz
 
278beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 17:43 		"How 'bout a rule that you can have one such player, but if you have more than one the excess have to be made available for the prospect draft?

Allow one on spec, but prevent anyone from stocking his whole bench with such folk."

That's still going to dilute the pool a bunch and it doesn't really punish someone for picking them up in June. I think if you draft them in the supplemental draft you should be able to retain rights to them since the punishment of holding them is worse.

We need to nip this thing in the butt. As of now, the only way to get a decent prospect is to pick him up when he starts AA or win the lotto and get an early prospect pick. There are obviously exceptions but there's just been way too many guys that have been picked up between the start of the year and the prospect draft that would've been no brainer prospect picks in July.
 
279Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 18:22 		Well, hold on. I don't think that's true at all about "decent prospects". A quick look at recent prospect drafts shows successful stars scattered among draft positions. And no evidence of pool dilution as far as I can see. No way an early prospect draft or pickup onto the main roster is required.

I'm not necessarily against this; I just don't see the evidence for why it is is desirable, much less necessary. I think you need to convince people.

I remember some years ago picking and thinking that all the best prospects had been taken and having to settle for a pitcher -- I hate taking pitchers. Settled for a guy named Kershaw.

I don't hold any such types myself at the moment.

As to [275] -- difficulty of rebuilding, I would argue the opposite, that it makes it easier to rebuild. Contenders find it much harder to find a space for these folk. IMO.

 
280Great One
      ID: 25421719
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 18:51 		Yeah, I always feel like all the best prospects are already on peoples prospect lists. Its only the guys that slip through the cracks and aren't hyped up that are available and get stashed on peoples rosters.
 
281mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 19:57 		We all know that picking prospects can be very iffy. None of these minor leaguers on current rosters were picked as prospects right after they were chosen in the MLB draft. They are late bloomers, benefitted by better coaching, or whatever, but most have never played an inning in the bigs, let alone approach prospect limits.

Let's face it, most of these minor leaguers will not be kept next year. It's just a way of keeping them off someone elses prospect list.

This poisons the prospect pool for everyone. I think this loophole violates the spirit of the prospect rules.

 
282Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 20:46 		Looking at the current list, a lot will be gone as they are playing in the majors and reaching limits.
 
283Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 21:00 		I was able to personally scout my prospect Danny Hultzen in his AAA home debut last night. Moments of greatness, followed by moments of looking like a first year pitcher.

It's funny tho'. I didn't buy the ticket to see Hultzen. I bought the ticket to see Jaime Moyer, who started off looking like a BP pitcher, but pulled it together and got the win.
 
284beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 22:36 		Toral, look at bh's current team. He's hoarding the prospects hoping some team out of contention will give him a closer/SP/hitter for one of his prospects. This strategy is perfectly fine within our rules but it's against the spirit of our league. The loophole of picking up prospects that more than likely would be drafted a few weeks before our prospect draft needs to be closed.

I'm not just placing the blame on bh. Of course, it is funny that he's trying to trade his prospect picks away too.
 
285beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jun 29, 2012, 22:44 		My rule proposal would be:

Any prospect eligible player that was not kept or drafted in the supplemental draft is eligible to be drafted in that year's prospect draft if he has not seen MLB action in the current year.

 
286Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 02:19 		Ironically, blue hen has been a champion for some kind of rule for a couple of seasons, although for the most part it was a "if you keep a prospect eligible player at the prospect draft, you have to keep him through (some date)".

I don't like guys that are easily *2014* guys being held at this point.....but there are guys who are Super 2 players waiting to be called up or otherwise on the cusp of callup any minute (d'Arnaud) that are perfectly legitimate holds whilest we await their callup (Rizzo another obvious example).

I am open to suggestions for the betterment of the league.
 
287Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 08:58 		Maybe you're right, bmd, and there needs to be some kind of rule. But Species' example makes the point.

Perhaps a rule requiring such a player, if not released to the prospect draft, to remain on the team's roster for the rest of the year, unless he is injured for the remainder of the year? That would eliminate the trading chip issue...and someone held for the long term would have to be a keeper at the following supplemental draft.

I'm up in the air at this point.
 
288beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 11:14 		Just to clarify, the rule would go in effect for next year. Any minor leaguer currently on someone's roster wouldn't be able to be drafted.

I think a set date on when they can be picked up and not drafted would be slightly better and easier to police. I'd be open to a date later than the supplemental draft but I think it needs to be no later than June 1st.
 
289youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 14:18 		maybe extend the ruling to:

Any prospect eligible player that was not kept or drafted in the supplemental draft is eligible to be drafted in that year's prospect draft if he has not seen MLB or AAA action in the current year.

AAA players are much more likely to get called up this season and may have already been picked up because of that. This is not expected for AA players who rarely get called up to the majors in the same year.

A prospect eligible player would then need to be at AA or lower and not on any prospect list. all other players should have been eligible in previous years where all managers had the chance to get them.
 
290mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 15:30 		I'm just spitballing ideas here...

How about something along the lines of if you pick up a minor league player after the supplimental draft who's a potential prospect pick who you speculate is going to be called up during the season, but is not, the consequences could be that you must use a keeper spot on that player the following year.

May seem like a harsh penalty, but perhaps if you drop that player prior to the prospect draft, so he can be picked up by someone in the prospect draft, you won't have to use a keeper spot on him the following year.

Or something to that effect...
 
291Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 16:45 		I like youngroman's idea of AAA, although that's still pretty limiting. I see a couple issues with mjd's idea (but you're thinking the right way)- not only is it too harsh, but it takes an entire year, by which time a team's strategy may change. Plus it's pretty complex AND would change the end of the supplemental draft as people reached for gambles.
 
292Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 18:16 		So when and where do we renounce prospects? Seems to me like this should be completed in the next day or two. Doesn't the prospect draft start a week from Monday?
 
293Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:08 		Brett Lawrie, on my main roster, is removed from my prospect list.
 
294Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:20 		Geez toral, that was a fast pick up -- of thome. Twice!

I love the guy -- class act, true baseball player, but the phillies just have no place for him. He has to be in the AL.. Dam I wish the NL had the DH. I hate the rule but Howard could be eased back much more easily...
 
295Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:21 		Yonder Alonso is off my prospect list.
 
296Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:29 		Thome is a great pickup for the interleague games. Otherwise, not so much.
 
297Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 19:57 		Thome is an oriole as of today!! He'll be the DH...
 
298darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 22:13 		I'll go ahead and renounce the rights to both of my prospects, Tom Milone (on my roster) and Alex White.
 
299beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Jun 30, 2012, 23:17 		I have no problems with somebody stockpiling prospects after the AS break. The issue is the players that are being picked up between the supplemental draft and the prospect draft. It drains the prospect pool and it makes the prospect draft not nearly as deep or important.

I guess my other suggestion would be to move the prospect draft to right after we declare keepers for the year and before the supplemental draft. This would give people free reign to pick up any prospect they wanted. Plus, it gives teams that actually finish at the bottom(not just the bottom at the AS break) better picks.

The only issue with that is guys that were drafted in the mlb draft and make an appearance in the majors before we get a chance to do the prospect draft. Obviously, we could just make all those guys off limits regardless of whether they are called up or not until we hold our prospect draft. There's other possible solutions to that problem as well.

I'm pretty indifferent on whether it should stay at the AS break or move. However, if it stays something needs to be done.


 
300Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 08:35 		I have been moving the last week and this is the first time I have been able to check the site. I am still very unorganized and to make matters worse will be moving again in about 4-5 months.

--Guru, I still need you to send me your address
--bmd, the prospect issue has always been there. I talked about this for several years then gave up when only a handful seemed to agree. I like it in midseason but there are issues. Most are planning to keep them anyhow so that probably won't help.
--Prospect Draft-I think we have to renounce by tomorrow but I can't find the rules. BH, can you pull up the rules that were on the league msg boards? Looks like they got nuked on change of ssns. Might have old rules on the league web site.
--Doesn't appear that some trades have gotten posted in league rules.
 
301Pete N.
      ID: 4462218
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 09:22 		Guru, payment sent.

I'm keeping my prospects.
 
302Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 09:34 		Ref, can you find specific trades that aren't posted?

Also, you can go to this "History" option on the league page to see last year.

Also, I am officially renouncing both Betances and Vizcaino as prospects.
 
303Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 11:46 		Before the season at the keeper deadline and then again at the prospect keeper draft deadline, 7 days before the draft (8 days before the ASG), all hitters must have less than 300 ABs and pitchers less than 110 IP or 40 GP or they must be moved to your active roster or released. Managers must monitor their own prospects. If they are later to have found to be over the max. at that deadline, the player will be immediately removed as a prospect and put on waivers.

At the prospect draft keeper deadline, all managers must have no more than 3 keepers on their prospect list. They may keep all three or none as long as none have been traded, (see below) but they will only get as many draft picks as it takes to max their prospects at three, barring a trade.

Prospect draft picks are assigned after your prospect keepers are announced. So if you have 3 prospect keepers, you don't have a prospect draft pick to trade. You may trade a pick at any time, but if you have traded a prospect draft pick, you may only declare two keepers. If you've traded two picks, you can only keep one and if you've traded all three, you may keep none. Once prospects have been declared and draft picks assigned, a manager may again exceed three prospects via trade.
 
304Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 11:53 		I sent out a league email. I am swamped irl. I'll do what I can to try and get the rules and prospects caught up. We should be able to start working on P-draft grid as early as Tuesday.
 
305youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 12:15 		I renounce prospect Jesus Montero.

My remaining prospects are Julio Teheran and Brett Jackson.
 
306Great One
      ID: 36214199
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 12:28 		I plan to keep my three prospects unless somebody wants to trade for one. Inquire within.
 
307GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 12:32 		Yu Darvish is being renounced as a prospect.
He's staying on the team where he will be.

 
308Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 13:03 		Renouncing rights to Mesoraco and Colon.

Retaining Chisenhall as a prospect (with a broken arm and only 284 AB)
 
309Jaydog
      ID: 597111721
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 13:21 		Renouncing rights to Jarrod Parker (keeping on team), and Aaron Hicks. Retaining Sano.
 
310beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 14:32 		I'm going to be gone from 7/8-7/12 with very limited Internet access if any. I'll obviously leave a queue. If my queue is empty and the draft is completed without me, do I lose my rights to draft a prospect or can I draft one 1-2 days after the draft has concluded?
 
311Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 16:43 		If draft is concluded, you will not be able to draft later.
 
312Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 19:13 		I renounce the rights to Mike Montgomery (SP, KC)

I retain 2 players, and have two round one picks (mine & BlueHen). I am out of town camping during the draft. I will send a queue to Species and Ref. (unless someone else can be my proxy).
 
313Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 19:48 		I am keeping my prospects.

I will have one pick, which is owned by R9.

I own Toral's 1st and 2nd round picks.
 
314Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 22:08 		I can be a queue proxy- no first rounder and likely the second-to-last pick in the 2nd.
 
315mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 15:01 		I renounce the rights to Tim "Stoner" Beckham, busted yet again after one free pass and Trayvon Robinson.

Keeping Zack Cox leaving me 2 prospect picks.
 
316R9
      ID: 280231323
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 16:07 		Renouncing:
- Mike Trout
- Ryan Franklin
- Hak-Ju Lee

Keeping:
- Dylan Bundy
- Anthony Gose
- Carlos Martinez
 
317Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 16:13 		RE #299

In my 10-team keeper we do the prospect drafting in the supplemental draft. You simply declare you are drafting that player as a prospect.

That league, however, is a much different setup than this one. For one thing, it has contracts, so nobody is going to stockpile minor leaguers when you have to fit under a salary cap.
 
318R9
      ID: 280231323
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 16:29 		Having the prospect draft at the ASB will always create room for loopholes to exist. I personally like the mid-season draft, but moving it to the offseason would solve a lot of problems.

Have the draft after keepers are announced but before the supplemental draft. That way any prospects that are on active rosters during the season will either be kept, or be tossed back into the prospect pool.

I.E. Billy Hamilton is on my roster, and may be a keeper for me. If he makes it to AA this summer and shines for two months, he could be a game changer in SB's by June 2013. If not, I don't keep him this year.
Under the current system, he'll have circumnavigated the p-draft. Under my proposal above, he'd be either kept by me in my 9 or tossed back for the p-draft.

I haven't really thought through the downsides of this yet, but it would certainly return some integrity to the p-draft. As it stands now though, a rebuilding team like mine just can't leave a top 5 prospect on the wire... so of course he's going to be picked up. Much like Matt Moore last year.
 
319blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 16:59 		I like that, but we might have to start the draft a little earlier.
 
320blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 17:03 		Oh and trade announcement:

BH gets:
R9's 2013 4th rounder

R9 gets
BH's 2013 11th rounder
BH's 2012 second round prospect pick
BH's 2012 third round prospect pick
 
321blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 17:39 		I miss my prospect picks already.
 
322R9
      ID: 280231323
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 18:23 		Confirmed.
 
323mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 21:58 		[318] Good points.

I also like the prospect draft during the ASB, but I agree that doing both drafts at the same time solves that issue.

It may change thoughts about keeping certain prospects. Had idiot Tim Beckham not toked up again after getting a mulligan, I might have kept him. Plus we give up half a season to evaluate our current prospects, but I think closing the loophole is more important.

On the positive side, we'll get more time to evaluate the new class of MLB draftees. If any of those guys get fast tracked to the show, anyone can pick them up if they want to.
 
324beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 23:01 		Yeah, the more I think about it the more I like it right before the Supplemental draft. If we do that, I think the MLB draftees should be free game for that year but they CANNOT be kept.
 
325Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 23:07 		But I don't think this stops people from bluehenning- trading all their prospect picks and spending last round picks on prospects, only to drop them immediately after the p-draft.
 
326beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 23:08 		bh, have fun holding those prospects. Don't think anyone is going to trade for guys that aren't even projected to play until 2014 and aren't sure things.

Jaydog, please make a trade so bh stops these stupid games of picking up guys that shouldn't be on anyone's roster right now.
 
327beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Mon, Jul 02, 2012, 23:09 		I dare you to try bluehenning when the prospect draft is BEFORE the supplemental draft.
 
328beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 00:13 		I'll also go on record saying if you drop those guys a week after the draft then you are breaking unwritten fantasy rules. That would be hindering other teams ability to compete while not improving your team.

I could go to the wire and pick up then drop every starting pitcher tomorrow to put them on waivers so nobody can pick them up for a spot start. I could also intentionally but subtly tank my team, start some pitchers when they'll most likely bomb, forget to set my lineup when I have Verlander starting once or twice, etc. There are other examples but you get the point.
 
329blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 11:57 		beastiemiked makes some good points and he's got a lot of respect from me, so I wanted to address the issue at hand.

A league like G20 is all about value. We make trades in attempt to increase our team's value. More importantly, value is not the same to everybody. A couple weeks ago, Tosh needed speed and I needed saves, so the Crisp/Bell trade helped both of us. Species and Toral made a similar trade: Species put value on the future, and Toral on the present, and a Jurickson/Capps trade was born.

Once I made the Heath Bell trade, I was facing the idea of a prospect draft with the 40th pick. At that point, I figured it would be better to expend my energy increasing the value of my assets (supplemental picks and rostered players) relative to the early prospect picks I didn't have. Which is what I did.

It didn't come without risk. I am in a dogfight at the top of the standings. But similar to how I traded Paul Konerko and kept Eric Hosmer, who is not as good, I was trying to compete while also thinking of the future. I envisioned a future with fewer good prospects on other teams too. If I had done this last year with Profar, Toral wouldn't have been able to trade for a closer this year, helping my team.

Given the bounds of the rules, I felt this was the best move for my team. I don't think there's an unwritten rule against this, and it's certainly a celebrated tradition in this league (see Morrison, Logan). I do agree that it's not in the best interests of the league and I would support a rule stopping this exact move - such as the proposal in 318. I've probably been the most outspoken opponent of this tactic in the league's history, and I am glad that change is coming.

For this season, I would like to maintain my integrity and sense of honor. Can you guys please let me know what the honorable move is here? If it's dropping some or all of these prospects, and that what you think is honorable (even though it's scary to do that without a prospect pick), then I'll consider it.

Thanks for being part of this discussion.
 
330beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 13:41 		If you really plan on flipping them or keeping them(lol) then it's fine. I just think you are going to end up dropping at least 2 of them a week or two after the P draft. These guys aren't even upper echelon guys so it's not like all the teams that are in desperate need of prospects are going to give you much for a guy that isn't going to produce until at least 2014.
 
331mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 14:15 		But 4 minor league players that could be drafted in the prospect draft are on BH's roster.

None are likely to be called up anytime soon, won't be keepers and therefore thin the pool of draft eligible prospects.
 
332blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 14:23 		MJD- right, that was the plan. Thin the pool of a draft I'm not in. Sneaky and underhanded, but within the rules.

Do you think it's breaking an unwritten rule? Or is it like stealing a sign?
 
333slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 14:45 		We discussed this last season re blue hen.

My point was making those prospects mandatory keepers towards their 9 next season should you pick them up before the draft and that notion got shot down...so sneaky as it may be we agreed to keep it that way.
 
334slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 14:46 		Btw is it too late to announce / renounce keepers??
 
335Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 14:52 		It is undermining the draft. I don't care whatever you guys want to change.

I am still swamped irl. Don't use me as someone to help you with your queue as I will need someone to take mine as well. I just don't have the time. Sorry!

Standings for P-draft
1 Blue Hen
2 Team Hall
3 Toral Blues
4 youngroman's Luschen
4 Team Tosh
6 Ref Guru
7 Endangered Species
8 darkside of the moon
8 beastiemike d
10 Team GoatLocker
11 Team Nash
12 GO's Gaslight Anthem
13 Roto Guru
14 Slackjawed Yokels
15 Niner's Niners
16 Sam n Max G
17 allhair allstars
18 Team Nerfherders
19 Team mjd
20 Team Sherby
 
336beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 15:45 		bh, why piss off the entire league for some marginal benefit to your team? Just doesn't make any sense.
 
337Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:05 		1. Personally I believe that bh's move is not only legal but...umm...not dishonourable. I think it's a waste of 4 roster spots for the dubious advantage of keeping prospects away from other managers in a 20-team league, but so be it.

It's not against any rules written, or unwritten, to dilute the prospect draft.

BTW I picked up Hosmer shortly before the prospect draft before bh, not with the slightest idea of keeping him out of it, but because I thot he might be a supplementary draft keeper on what was then a very weak team. bh asked then if there wasn't a rule against this.I had to drop him later because of roster/injury considerations.

2. Could this all be a bh ploy to force us to adopt a rule, which he wanted to do in the first place?
 
338Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:10 		Are we going to do anything?

I would suggest that the commishes pick one or more of the proposals suggested to vote on.

I myself would take youngroman's from 289;
Any prospect eligible player that was not kept or drafted in the supplemental draft is eligible to be drafted in that year's prospect draft if he has not seen MLB or AAA action in the current year.
Not perfect, no doubt, but a good start. Not to come into effect until next year of course.

Commishes may also want us to vote on moving the prospect draft to the beginning of the season. I am violently against this. I already have enuf drafts going on at this time; a prospect draft in mid-summer is a pleasant diversion.

Also a mid-season draft requires managers to rely less on a superfluity of canned prospect lists and actually evaluate mid-season performances and their relevance.
 
339blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:22 		Toral, you're back into your position as my favorite Gurupie. It was a little touch and go there for a while, but you're back.

Today is especially painful. Giancarlo Stanton isn't playing, and I don't have room for a spot starter. If I lose this league by 1 RBI (don't laugh - just look at last year), that's probably why. It's a gamble I'm willing to take, for reasons stated above.

Toral is right- we have two proposals (and one non-proposal), and I think we should vote on them, perhaps next week when there's no baseball. Maybe by a poll on the league page?
 
340Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:23 		I would vote for the prospect draft to be before the free agent draft.

The prospect rules as they stand are, at best, overly complicated. Some teams have 2 prospects, while others have 5. Two years in and I still don't fully understand it, and I run a dynasty league with 10-man prospect lists and contracts.

To me things would be much easier if there was a 3-round prospect draft, and if you had zero prospects going into the draft, you'd get to draft 3, and if you had 3 prospects, you'd get to draft none. And you cant have more than 3 prospects at any one time.

I also wouldnt mind a change to draft/keep limits for pitchers to 50/100 IP only. The games limit seems overly restrictive towards those prospects that may start out in the bullpen.
 
341mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:27 		I like 289 for a start.
 
342beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:44 		I think 1st vote should be to move the draft before supplemental draft. If that gets turned down then we can tweak our current system so people like bh don't f up the prospect pool.
 
343Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:47 		I would suggest voting on both the same time.

The proposals are competitive in the sense that we only need (at most) one of them. If BOTH pass then only the one with more votes should be implemented.
 
344Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 16:49 		And for those who really want a change -- voting on both at the same time is more likely to get it.

Because someone who is against both proposals, but one only mildly and the other violently, might well vote "Yes" to the lesser evil in a simultaneous vote, and "NO" to both in separate votes.
 
345Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 20:25 		I will try to get something official up later....or tomorrow.
 
346slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Tue, Jul 03, 2012, 20:45 		I'm renouncing my rights to Gordon.

Keeping Skaggs and starling.

If its not too late ;)
 
347Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 12:04 		Unless a league member mounts a significant objection, I am cool with that slizz.
 
348Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 22:35 		Darn it. Lee notches his first win on my bench. I have very slow access and so set my SP based upon espn Sunday schedule data. The phillies must have moved up his start? I had him set for Thursday.
Bummer, but good for him (and the phillies) that he finally got a win.
 
349Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 09:25 		We need to run a lottery for this draft order, don't we?
 
350Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 10:12 		346 and 347 He is no longer prospect eligible anyhow so there is no issue. I am going to try and get some of these prospects removed from league page. Still need to do lottery and then figure out how many draft picks.
 
351blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 10:28 		Don't forget to add the trade in 320 and the renouncement in 302, as long as you're on the league page.
 
352Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 10:54 		Could someone confirm that there are no remaining prospects that have been renounced or who have went over the threshold? Looks like there are 39 left as of now. That would mean 21 picks to make.

The P-Draft was initially made to fill a lull in the middle of the season when no other games were being played and theoretically a perfect time to draft. Also, it was about the time of the futures game and right after the amateur draft.

However, several have messed with the integrity of this draft by picking up prospect eligible players before the draft. If the top players are able to be picked up, it really takes the strategy out of things. For instance, I may just keep my current prospect instead of throwing him back and hoping to get a better player. In the past some have suggested that those players should have to be kept on the roster for the remainder of the ssn and other have went a step farther saying they should have to be kept for next ssn. Others have suggested banning the ability of picking up prospect-eligible players all ssn until after the p-draft. Those players aren't avilable leading up to the p-draft and some have wanted that timeline lengthened. We did add the ban on recent drafted players even if they were added to the db before the p-draft. But only one player was ever added early from that.

At this point, I am open to anything. I am having trouble making the time to do anything more than simply set my roster each day (sometimes only by phone). Handling the prospects can be a real time-suck for the commishs. Some of these rules--while making it better--might require even more oversight. If moving it to beg. of ssn makes it better--then whatever works. Ideally, I'd like it where it is--but without the headaches and loss of integrity which is occurring presently IMM. I see some good points to all of the ideas posted. Whatever change is decided, let's just be sure to give it some teeth.

One thing on one of the ideas though--it's really hard to figure out if a player has been up to AAA or AA and some even jump from AA to MLB. It's a lot easier to figure out if a player has been called up. This may go too far and I'm just spitballing--but what if no FA pickups of a player who hasn't been called up to majors before P-draft? You can draft them and pick them up after P-draft but not before. If you pick them up before they have played a game you need to cite where they have been OFFICIALLY called up. If you pick them up before they were official it will be reversed. This could create some nice strategies for the S-Draft as well as P-Draft. To prevent someone drafting them in S draft just to keep them from being had until P-draft you could make it that that person has to keep them on their roster all ssn. Perhaps too extreme--just a thought.

Most current rules in sports are where they are based on plays that have happened that needed a rule governing that. This is no different.

Trades: I have no idea how far we are behind. Need to make sure that is right before we assign draft picks for the P-draft.
 
353Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 11:07 		I found three more prospects that needed to be removed.
 
354Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 11:22 		I just ran a virtual coin flip to break the tie between darkside and bmd for purposes of seeding the lottery. Darkside won the toss, so he get one extra chance at being selected for a top three pick.

Ref - would you like me to go ahead and run the lottery now?
 
355blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 11:28 		These managers have had their 2012 Prospect Draft selections altered via trade:
7-2-12 R9 receives Bluehen's 2nd and 3rd round prospect picks (2013 picks)

These managers have had their 2013 Supplemental Draft selections altered via trade:
7-2-12 blue hen receives R9's 4th rounder for his 11th (prospect picks)
 
356Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:05 		1. Regarding ref's point about some proposed rules making more oversight, the commishes don't have to be responsible for policing everything. If an ineligible player is picked up under a 289- like rule, someone in the league is going to notice and point it out. It can be provided that the commishes are not under a responsibility to check the bona fides of every callup.

2.If you have Rotowire you can find out quickly whether a player has been in AAA this year. baseball-reference.com is a free source. I'm ssure there are others.

 
357Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:31 		Tracking the status of a number of minor leaguers to see if they got bumped to AAA so I can add them doesn't seem worth the effort. Seems like more of a hassle to individual managers as well as commishes.
And not everyone even goes to AAA, what if they skip it altogether? or go up and back down? or are in AA, go up to the majors for a spot start and go back down?

Ref's proposal seems a little simpler. You can draft anyone during the regular draft... and unless you are called up in the first half you have to wait til the prospect draft. And then after the prospect draft people can add whoever they want. We could even do speculative adds still... if you think a guy is getting called up, then go ahead and add him, if he doesn't get called up in say 7 days, then you have to release him. We'll notice that guy on your bench the same way we have noticed BH's minor league guys etc.
 
358Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:43 		If a player skips AAA all together, then he must be going direct to MLB, making him immediately eligible to be called up -- just as if he were called up to AAA. If they go up and down, they can be picked up as FAs -- if they're in AAA at all in the current season, they're eligible. Ditto with the guy called up from AA for a spot start.

ref's idea is actually the original proposal -- bmd's proposal from 285. It was objected to because, in the words of Species, "but there are guys who are Super 2 players waiting to be called up or otherwise on the cusp of callup any minute (dArnaud) that are perfectly legitimate holds whilest we await their callup (Rizzo another obvious example)." That is, there are AAA players managers might want to pick up, not to keep them out of the prospect pool, but to help their team this year.

It is true that there are AA players in that position as well -- but no rule can cover every situation perfectly.

I don't have a strong preference as between 285 and 289. Perhaps both should be voted on, with the one that gets most votes (if both pass), being enacted.
 
359Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:51 		Make that "ref's idea is actually similar to the original proposa[ --ref's would bar the pickups outright.

If this rule is enacted we will need very specific rules about what information allows a player to be picked up. If Rotoworld reports that a reporter has twittered that Joe Prospect has been called up by the Hopelesses, is that enuf? What if he is wrong? Where do you find out when a player has been officially called up? Team announcement? In that case we can have fun spending days checking every national and city source for hoursforfirst official news of the official callup of someone who everyone knows is about to be called up.

A very nice advantage for people who check the baseball news regularly all day.
 
361Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 12:57 		I think maybe if we did the rule with no minor league players added between start of season and the ASB then you could just send anyone who is called up to waivers and that would be fair.

I would think most guys on the verge of callup i.e Bryce, Trout, Rizzo, Bauer would have already been selected in a previous prospect drafts OR in the regular draft at the start of the season in anticipation of the first half callup.

I can't imagine a guy going from unknown, undrafted in previous p-draft, undrafted in the regular draft... and then being a highly coveted player on the verge of a callup in the span of 3 months prior to the ASB (post regular draft(.

And if he does - then its going to make those prospect picks worth a whole lot more cause they get first crack at him.
 
362Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 13:35 		If you want to go this route, it's very simple - no free agent can be picked up or drafted in the s-draft unless they have at least 1 game played in MLB.

So the guy could be promoted, but until he plays in that game he can't be acquired. For top prospects it shouldn't take too long.

This is also very easy to track.
 
363Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 13:43 		I would have no problems with sending prospect-eligible callups to waivers -- but that would have to be manual, wouldn't it? Now there you have a huge commish burden.
 
364Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 13:46 		Nerf 362-- so he's eligible as soon as he's accumulated an official game appearance, right during the game itself? It'll be good to have Extra innings or MLBTV....
 
365Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 14:01 		No wait -- the game could be rained out. We'd have to wait u4 1/2 or 5 innings till it was an official game.
 
366Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 14:02 		I don't know how CBS works, but in Yahoo when a guy makes his big league debut you have the option to send him through waivers or just make him an immediate free agent.

But they also wait to put him into the system in the first place.
 
367Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 14:03 		Guru go for it.

bmd's proposal is interesting s you could draft right off someone else's team. Many of these ideas would also make it tough to tank. Species rebuilding his team when he was still in the money is odd. Others did that last year who were even in better shape. The reason I said as soon as the callup is official was because that would be the way to police it over soon as the guy threw his first pitch or made his first AB. Not everyone can be sitting at the computer waiting for the first pitch to be thrown, etc. This game should be more about strategy with drafting/trading/FA acquisitions and tough drops than who has more access to the site--though that also plays into it obviously. bmd's idea might be the best as far as oversight as well as you can have anyone you want if they are prospect eligible and have not seen action that year. This takes away the September call-ups which is perfect. I might take it a step farther and say regardless if he was kept or drafted because the ones who tend to draft those players will load up on them if they have no chance that ssn anyhow.
 
368Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 14:05 		What other trades need to be put down in the rules?
 
369Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 15:07 		Lottery results:

Pick #1: Nerfherders
Pick #2: Judy
Pick #3: Slizz
 
370Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 15:21 		369: confirmed

If the prospects are correct we can get a draft grid up. As of now it looks like there will be 24 picks.

If we can pick out the top ideas, we can get a vote if there are to be any p-rules changes. These rules would go into effect as soon as this draft is over. I don't even see the rule about the eligibility of Japanese and Cuban players or inability to pick up anyone from current MLB draft until after p-draft. May have lost some rules in the transition from CBS. Half our rules are for prospects it seems.
 
371 Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 16:09 		I am so confused about all those eligibility stuff you are discussing. I am planning to pick 2 guys not on MLB rosters and not on anyone's prospect list who meets the AB (300>) and IP (100>) criteria. I hope I have the alligator mouths pointing in the right direction. Just back from vacation to 100 degrees. Phew!

That simplifies it for me! It better be accurate!

Now I need to get cracking on finding a list of prospects...

Anyone want to send me a website to check out?
 
372blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 17:06 		www.doyourownresearch.com

And it's not 300/110, it's 150/55.

"A draft-eligible prospect is defined as a hitter that has less than 150 AB or a pitcher with less than 55 IP or 20 GP and has not been on your active roster within one week prior to the draft. They do not need to be in the ESPN player database, but can not be still in high school/college, etc. They need to either be on a pro team, drafted by a team, or a current free agent/professional Japanese or Cuban player."
 
373Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 20:43 		Whatever...I got someone to give me the limits without having to look up! Ha!
 
374Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 22:48 		Like I said before, I am not impressed with papelbon...not an All star in my book.
 
375beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 23:27 		Can anyone take a prospect draft queue? Preferably somebody that won't go and pick up the guys on my list before the draft starts:)
 
376R9
      ID: 280231323
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 01:29 		I'd pick them up if I had room bmd... ;)

I think that the easiest way to maintain integrity in the prospect draft and to keep commish and league maintenance at a minimum is to move the draft to before the supp draft in the offseason, but after keepers are declared. That lets us speculate all we want on young'ins, and if they're not kept in our 9 keepers they go right back to the p-draft. We can then skip all this talk of limiting pickups to criteria X. No matter what criteria we choose, someone has to monitor that crap. And that's no fun.

We're also talking about a draft that averages 25-30 picks each year. We'll finish it in a day. We'll just start our spring stuff on March 8th instead of March 10th.

Sure it's adding something to do when baseball is on hiatus for the ASBreak, but so is moving it to the offseason, when there is nothing happening...

Anyway, just my two cents.
 
377Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 07:58 		OK, it looks like for the most part it is a vote to change the p-draft to preseason or limit prospects from being picked up. Sure we have to play with the language, but that's the gist. Need to get a vote out today. Also need to get the draft order set up. No one chimed in about anything being wrong so am going to have to get the draft set-up based on what I have.
 
378Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 08:44 		Do you do it before or after the supplemental draft? I would think before would be better... or people might select guys in the regular one and we have the same problem.
 
379beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 09:37 		Yeah, definitely before.
 
380blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 09:56 		I vote yes on the Spring p-draft, and I like that timing - after keepers and before the supp.

BMD, I can take your queue, by email or text.
 
381 beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 10:10 		bh, post your email our shoot me one.
 
382Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 10:10 		Yes, if we changed it to preseason it would be right after Keeper deadline. P-Draft would go then S-Draft. Base draft order would be same for both. Not sure we'd have many to draft next season. Also, you'd have to get down to 3 prospects or less before the draft.

If we left it where it is, we'd have to finalize the language, but it would be either any prospect eligible player who hadn't played in the majors that season (and not a current prospect obviously) would be eligible to be drafted--whether on a team or not or we simply bar the pickup. I think it would be easier if we just use bmd's idea but give it some teeth to say--hey you can put a youngster on your team, but if he isn't called up by the p-draft, he is fair game. This would help the hoarding and the tanking and give more integrity to the prospect draft.

Both ideas are interesting.
 
383Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 10:51 		Right after keepers is great cause then it would force the owner to make a decision on the guy and decide if he's really a keeper or not. It would make stashing him pointless if you don't really want to commit a keeper spot.

I think its also better to have the same draft order for both. It always seemed kind of arbitrary to use the mid season standings and not a true indicator of the best and worst teams.
 
384Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 11:27 		Works for the Political Forum League.
 
385Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 11:35 		Yeah, except there they do it AFTER the regular draft. That should really be switched if doing this strategy.
 
386Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 11:36 		Well personally, I agree with those of you who are tired of the prospect hoarding. I am not sure which is best. I like the minimal oversight of both. I like how the preseason one would get it out of the way, but I also like the draft at the ASB and how it could penalize hoarding. I keep going back and forth.
 
387Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 11:37 		#385: I agree. It won't solve the hoarding problem unless done before the regular draft.
 
388Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 13:11 		I think if it were to be preseason, we'd have to announce keepers, then call up/renounce any prospects. Then hold the p-draft. Remember if a player was already over the threshold they'd have to include them with their keepers as they would no longer be prospect eligible.
 
389beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 14:16 		I'm going to be gone for the next week. I'd vote for preseason. Definitely want a change so I'd take ASB with restrictions over no change but would prefer it to be preseason.
 
390Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 14:36 		I am running out of time...again. I am going to get this out for a vote via email. I don't care if the responses come in this thread or email.

Question:
1. Do you support changing the prospect draft from its current form?
2. In case the change passes, do you support:
A: Draft occurs as it always has except ANY prospect-eligible player who has NOT played in the current season (and not a current prospect) is eligible to be drafted. (This includes being on someone else's team).
B: We hold the P-Draft in the preseason right after Keepers are declared and before the regular Supplemental Draft.

Please get your vote in by today if at all possible. Any changes would go into effect immediately following next Monday's P-draft.

 
391Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 14:40 		1. Do you support changing the prospect draft from its current form? YES
2. In case the change passes, do you support:
B: We hold the P-Draft in the preseason right after Keepers are declared and before the regular Supplemental Draft.
 
392beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 14:52 		Yes, B
 
393blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 15:10 		1. Do you support changing the prospect draft from its current form? YES
2. In case the change passes, do you support:
B: We hold the P-Draft in the preseason right after Keepers are declared and before the regular Supplemental Draft.
 
394blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 15:11 		... although I'll miss the ASB stuff - we should have All-Star pickem, with the prize being a higher spot in the lottery.
 
395Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 15:20 		bmd, I have you with 3 prospects already and no trades to pick up anymore. Did I miss a cut?
 
396Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 15:23 		The worst teams all get a guy in the home run derby to pin their hopes on! :)
 
397Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 15:35 		Here is what I have come up with as a Draft Order:


Round 24
1 Team Nerfherders
2 Sam n Max G
3 Team Sherby
4 Team mjd
5 allhair allstars
6 Slackjawed Yokels
7 Roto Guru
8 Team GoatLocker
9 darkside of the moon
10 R9 (via species)
11 Ref Guru
12 youngromans Luschen
13 Team Tosh
14 Species (via Toral)
15 Team Hall
16 Tosh (via BH)

Round 25
1 Team mjd
2 Sam n Max G
3 Roto Guru
4 Team GoatLocker
5 Species (via Toral)
6 Team Hall
7 R9 (via bh)

Round 26
1 R9 (via bh)

 
398mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 16:00 		OK, given these changes, is there any point in time that you can have more than 3 prospects on your prospect list? (Say via trade.)
 
399Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 16:01 		My votes:
#1: yes
#2: A (how can we select a prospect based on the prior year? We need current year data! Holding it preseason we might as well do it in October!?)

(am I missing something here?)
 
400Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 16:06 		In theory you could have more than 3 prospects for 364 days out of the year, no? Just need to get down to 3 or less at the same time you declare your keepers. Then the picks are established and you are all set for another year. Add 30 prospects if you want... just need to get back down for the following years draft.
 
401youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 16:39 		Yes, B
 
402mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 16:46 		[400] Just making sure. Right now there are 2 times that our prospect list must be down to 3. The beginning of the season and just prior to the current mid season P-draft.
 
403Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 16:49 		400: Correct. It's the same as always but at a different point in time--Preseason vs. Midseason.
 
404Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 21:51 		Yes.

B.

Thanks Ref.
 
405Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 22:12 		I have sent my draft queue list to Species and BlueHen.

#1 - No
#2 - B
 
406GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 22:16 		Yes -- 2B
 
407Slackjawed Yokel
      ID: 38502923
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 23:24 		I've been consumed with moving over the past couple of weeks, so checking in fairly late.

Vote:
Yes, A.

If it's not too late, I would also like to remove bryce harper as a prospect and make him a fully fledged member of my squad. This is only if it's not too late to secure another prospect pick...
 
408Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 23:40 		I may not have much access until Sunday night. Here is the vote through 391-407 (Toral voted via email No, A)

1. Yes 8 No 2
2. A 3 B 7
 
409Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 13:54 		Vote:

Yes
B
 
410Pete N.
      ID: 51612715
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 16:13 		Yes, B
 
411R9
      ID: 14634711
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 18:06 		Yes, B
 
412mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 20:20 		Yes, A
 
413Ref
      ID: 13211515
      Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 21:48 		Yes, A
 
414Ref
      ID: 13211515
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 00:17 		402: No, it's only at midseason but we have two checks to make prospects be called up or dropped. I suppose we could maintain the asg check even if the pdraft gets moved but you would only need to get down to 3 for the pdraft as always.
 
415Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 11:54 		Yes, A
 
416Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 18:29 		So when does the draft start and what are the parameters for the timing of each choice? Are we doing it here?
 
417Ref
      ID: 3063818
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 19:03 		Current Vote

1. Yes 14 No 2
2. A. 6 B. 10

Barring anyone changing their vote before it is finalized, Yes has won and B needs one more vote to win. A is gaining momentum but will it be too little too late?

Draft officially starts Monday at Noon with the clock. My day is going to be packed. I haven't even done any research for my lone pick. I may try and get it started tonight without a clock. Once clock starts it is 3 hrs per pick with a cumulative clock of 4 hours. Regular draft rules apply. Hope to have future prospect rules in place before this draft begins.
 
418Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 20:37 		Do we pick here?
 
419allhair allstars
      ID: 4611820
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 21:11 		Yes, A.
 
420slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 21:20 		Yes, A.
 
421Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 21:20 		Current Vote

1. Yes 16 No 2
2. A. 8 B. 10

2 more to vote.
 
422Jaydog
      ID: 597111721
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 21:29 		Yes, A
 
423Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 21:44 		P-draft thread is up link

Vote is A 9 B 10. I am going to try and figure out who hasn't voted yet.
 
424Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 21:49 		I sent darkside an email as I think it is him. barring any changes, he can tie it or end it. If it is tied we will have to have another vote I think and hope someone changes their mind. It is not a vote to change that would fail as that is the vote in #1 which has passed by a landslide.
 
425Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 21:59 		Pick made.

Buxton is a bit too young for my taste but after looking at the established pros, figured he was the best talent available.
 
426Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 22:08 		Main reason I decided to vote for A was that if we do B, we basically won't even have a draft next season at all as we have the draft this week. Also, people will be able to pick up any newly drafted players who make the ESPN database at will w/o prospect protection. Now that may not be many at all, but certainly the top players like the Strasburg and Harper types. In the end, I will happily do it whichever the league wants it done. Majority rules.
 
427Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 22:17 		Ref, the draft will come after keepers. If I don't keep Jedda Gyorko, you'll be able to take him in the prospect draft.
 
428Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 22:28 		Talking about the MLB draft in June. Anyone added to the 40 man rosters will be added to ESPN database.
 
429Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Sun, Jul 08, 2012, 22:46 		Just started doing some research and there are some players who I don't even think are on the 40 man roster who are in espn db. Hmmmmmm...not sure anymore when players get added.
 
430Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 08:28 		Darkside has voted for Yes, B so we are set.

Yes 18 No 2
A 9 B 11

I'll try to get the rules updated. We can still use the ASG as a check if a player has hit the threshold and not yet called up--though that rarely happens.

I envision Keepers being due quite a bit earlier now as it takes some time to get the prospects renounced/called-up and draft ready. Heck, we give ourselves a week now--but that will have to be condensed. It won't be too bad next spring as there shouldn't be many needing picks.
 
431Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 08:56 		That was pretty easy rules fix and they are posted in our bulletin board. So our preseason schedule will go something like this now:

Draft order for both drafts and lottery done
Keepers due
Keepers all posted
Prospect Keepers (renouncing/call-ups) due
Prospects posted
P-Draft order/picks/rounds established
P-Draft
P-Draft rules edited with new prospects added
S-Draft
Waivers turned on
 
432GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 08:59 		Anybody available to take a short queue from me for the P-Draft?

TIA
 
433Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:00 		P-Draft

Remember, if someone mis-picks, the draft continues and he will re-pick. We don't stop the draft. Just inform him so he can make another selection asap.
 
434Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:09 		I was just going over our rules and we have specifically never allowed anyone to drop a player within a week of the season before the p-draft and then draft that player in the p-draft. That means that any manager wanting to draft a player on his team in the p-draft would need to drop him before the last 7 days of the regular season or he wouldn't be eligible to draft him in the p-draft. This rule could actually help us with a "crafty" manager who wanted to hoard players just so he might be able to draft one of them the following preseason.
 
435Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:11 		GL: I will probably be around until a little after Noon ET then I won't have much time the rest of the week.If your pick comes up this morning I can make it.
 
436Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:14 		Sorry, GL check that. I forgot I have to get a ton of stuff done before then. I better figure out a Q real quick myself!
 
437GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:16 		Thanks ref, understand.
OK, guess I will pick when I get home if nobody can take the queue.

Thanks all.
 
438 Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:20 		GL - I am mostly home today for a Q.
 
439GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:33 		Thanks Judy,
Just sent a 3 player Queue.
Will be late getting home due to a doctor's appointment.
If it gets back to me in Round 2, will pick as soon as I get in.
 
440blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 09:35 		Ref, I think we can strike the 7 day rule. That appears to have been a feeble attempt to prevent bluehenning. You should be able to draft any prospect-eligible player who was not kept or a prospect, no matter what roster they were ever on.

Re 429: This is quite simple. In the preseason, we add every player you might possibly want to add, provided they are currently in the majors, minors, or a major league free agent (no Japan unless they've posted and signed, no college, etc). Then that list doesn't change for the duration of the season, with one exception - if a player from the draft (or not in the DB for another reason) makes his MLB debut, he is put on waivers the following day.

Strasburg was handled incorrectly, and it hasn't happened since.
 
441Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 10:04 		440: It's the same principle but it could actually come into play now. Especially this season when there shouldn't be too many picks. Let's use your team as an example, bh. You have three picks as of now. There may be only a handful of total picks form this season. What if you have a few prospects on your team. Odds are that you would be able to drop them and pick at least one of them back. A team at the bottom could all but guarantee he gets at least one of them back (lottery comes into play). By keeping this rule, we prevent anyone from trying to skirt the prospects by hoarding players--the reason we changed the rules to begin with.
 
442Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 11:01 		Judy, Q sent.
 
443judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 11:02 		GL and Ref

Got 'em!
 
444blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 11:30 		I don't get it. You can't pick up players after the season ends. If you have a prospect on your roster, either you keep him or he's available in the prospect draft. No loopholes.

I do see one (minor) issue. The 2013 prospect draft won't include 2013 draftees, so it might be a thinner pool than usual. But I don't think that matters since we'll have drafted 8 months prior, and more players are likely to keep the prospects they have now.
 
445Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 11:46 		Right. Everything's copacetic so long as keepers are declared before the prospect draft. Otherwise at the end of the season you could bluehen by releasing everyone who definitely isn't going to be a keeper and filling the roster with the best prospects available.
 
446blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 13:46 		Judy, please keep all draft discussion in this thread (or we can open up a discussion thread) and not in the draft thread. Thanks.
 
447Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 14:36 		Yokel times out in 25 minutes.
 
448Judy
      ID: 28523116
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 14:56 		It was not a discussion. It was an announcement.
 
449darkside
      ID: 15654914
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 15:59 		Sorry I've been mia for a while. Anyway, important follow up re: the prospect draft....I should have 3 picks. I renounced my remaining two prospects in post 298 above. It would be ideal if the draft order on the draft page could be updated to reflect that but if not I'll pay close attention. Thanks!
 
450Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 15:59 		I emailed darkside about Cox.

PS - we suck! 2 out of 8 picks are already on the prospect list!!! LOL
 
451darkside
      ID: 15654914
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 16:09 		Sorry about picking up cox. Definitely hard to do this from work when both espn and rotoguru are blocked. Luckily a colleague has an iPad! Thanks for your patience.
 
452Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 17:34 		I've emailed Slack about Miller. :(

The draft continues....he can make up his pick at any time.

Darkside....will have to check on your request later.....did your releases make it in time?
 
453Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 18:34 		R9's clock started at 4:06pm ET. He has roughly 30 minutes to go.

Ref would then be next - judy has his queue
Youngroman would be after him.....we are approaching the time where he would go to sleep in Europe....anyone have a queue?
 
454Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 19:09 		R9 has timed out.

Ref is up
Youngroman is next
Then Tosh
 
455R9
      ID: 53631918
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 19:39 		Sorry for the delay guys, work is ridiculous today. Surprised to see Walker still around. He is available, right?
 
456Species
      ID: 124591311
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 20:02 		He sure is......strangely so!

I am shocked by Ref's pick......doesn't seem like someone he would pick. Well done.
 
457Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 20:26 		Jaydog has to repick. D'arnaud is on species roster.

Travis d'Arnaud, Tor C  DTD SPEC

 
458darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 21:12 		Species re: 452 - post 298 is timestamped June 30, and I'm well before a number of others, so I assume it was just an oversight.

Thanks, commishes!
 
459Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 22:34 		darkside, I didn't see 298, You will have 3 picks. Let me see where you will pick.
 
460Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 22:38 		Draft Order:

Round 24
1 Team Nerfherders
2 Sam n Max G
3 Team Sherby
4 Team mjd
5 allhair allstars
6 Slackjawed Yokels
7 Roto Guru
8 Team GoatLocker
9 darkside of the moon
10 R9 (via species)
11 Ref Guru
12 youngromans Luschen
13 Team Tosh
14 Species (via Toral)
15 Team Hall
16 Tosh (via BH)

Round 25
1 Team mjd
2 Sam n Max G
3 Roto Guru
4 Team GoatLocker
5 Darkside
6 Species (via Toral)
7 Team Hall
8 R9 (via bh)

Round 26
1 Darkside
2 R9 (via bh)
 
461darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 22:42 		Thanks very much!
 
462blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 12:15 		... and that's a wrap. Great job guys.
 
463Species
      ID: 124591311
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 12:18 		Weird draft! Some guys picked that weren't on my radar (which can say as much about ME as it could anyone else!)....some guys slipped I thought would not slip (I should have tried to trade up for Walker)......and some top 15 pitchers that didn't get drafted!

Btw....regarding our new rules, I think there is a detail to be worked out. Consdering that many teams (myself included, R9 as well) traded for extra picks well before the new rules.......I propose that an exception to the "you must have no more than 3 prospects at the Prosect Keeper deadline" rule be allowed. It would be unfair for said teams not to get at least 1 full year of time to cut down to 3.

Thoughts on that?
 
464blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 12:39 		I'm not sure on that. I see where you're coming from, but... considering that there won't be a new draft between now and then, I think it's reasonable to make this draft as deep as possible, forcing teams down to three prospects.

Again, I'm not leaning that way based on specific logic, more on general league fairness.
 
465Species
      ID: 124591311
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 13:14 		Ohhhhhh....did we decide that there would NOT be a draft this upcoming March, 2013? If so, then the point is moot, as my scenario doesn't play out.
 
466Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 13:24 		Too late for an exception IMO. This was one of the obvious downsides to changing the draft date and it should be assumed that people considered that when they voted. Especially since both affected players mentioned actually voted for the change. Hoist on their own petard, and all that.
 
467blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 14:59 		I meant an MLB Draft. There won't be new recently drafted players in our March 2013 prospect draft.
 
468Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 17:30 		466: Toral is right on the money with this. I mentioned that there wouldn't be many players to be drafted and you'd have to be down to 3 pre-draft.

bh, All I'm saying is that a team could pick up a bunch of prospects. Could get the #1 pick in p-draft and effectively renounce a player on his team and then draft him right back for the prospect draft if it weren't for this rule that is on our team. When we started with the prospect draft, that is one thing that people wanted to avoid but it never became an issue. Now they would not be allowed to be on your team within the last week of the season in order to draft your former player in the p-draft.
 
469Tosh on phone
      ID: 596501017
      Tue, Jul 10, 2012, 18:51 		I think it only fair that managers are allowed to have more than three prospects at the draft next year. Since all this discussion and voting did not occur until after I had already traded for an extra draft pick ... Knowing I had until next July to have to cut down to three.

And since it is already on the record, I voted 'no' on the date change.
 
470R9
      ID: 14634711
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 01:25 		I didnt even consider that my extra prospect picks are basically wasted now. Been so busy with work that it did not occur to me... I'll accept whatever the league decides, but losing them kinda sucks.

While on this subject, is there a reason why we limit prospects to 3 per team? A simple rule requiring you to own one prospect pick for each prospect you own would cap all prospects at 60 every year and still allow rebuilding teams to have more then 3 prospects. Each additional prospect past the original 3 becomes more expensive, as you have to trade for both the 4th prospect as well as an extra pick... Just wondering what the logic was behind the 3 limit in the first place.
 
471Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 08:47 		I think due to the unique situation it would reasonable to waive the 3 player limit for next years draft... if you want a draft pick in it, you need to get down to less than 3 - but I think if you have 3 or more it would fair to just let them pass on any picks but keep their extras.

Then in spring of 2014 - 1.5 years from now we can get back to the 3 limit if we choose to do so.
 
472blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 09:58 		Re: 468. That's physically impossible, Ref. Since the p-draft would be after keepers, you'd either have to keep the player or let him go in the p-draft. Sure, if you have the #1 pick you can pick up whoever you want, but someone who is trying to hoard prospects will either have to make them a keeper or throw them back.
 
473blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 09:59 		As for the other discussion, I'm fine either way. R9 brings up some good points - if you have the appropriate number of prospect picks, you should be able to keep as many prospects as you like.
 
474Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 10:35 		Ref 468

Particularly as a Commissioner I understand that our discussion threads act as an official record. So, if you made a point before or during the voting process that a vote for option B meant that you had to get down to 3 prospects by March 2013 (although it wasn't written out precisely like that, then that should have been taken into account in our voting.

That said, I doubt I was the only one who might have missed that small detail in the midst of the 70-odd posts from July 5th through July 8th as all of this discussion was going on.

Bluntly this rule change is NOT in my best interests at all. I chose to vote this in for the best interests of our league in the hopes of hopefully creating an easier-to-understand set of rules that gives all teams the best chance to succeed.

I am asking Toral and Ref to reconsider their positions -- and I offer a compromise as well:

As a part of this rule change, a one-time exception to the 3-prospect rule will be given to those who had already accumulated prospect picks sufficient to give them more than 3 prospects at the completion of the draft. This exception extends the 3-prospect rule out to the All-Star Break of 2013.

So, not only would those teams not get screwed out of losing time to hold and evaluate their prospects, but it also would not gain those teams any further time than they would have had if we hadn't voted in a rule change literally while arranging our Prospect Draft.

 
475Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 10:37 		Separate from 474 -- I also love R9's suggestion that you may keep more than 3 prospects if you accumulate sufficient prospect picks to do so. I believe the whole point of trimming down to 3 was intended to simply limit the number of prospects to a total of 60 anyway, right?
 
476Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 10:41 		My wording was a little poor in 474. What I think I mean is:

The exception would extend the due date to cut down to 3 prospects to the All-Star Break of 2013.

This would be a one-time exception that is self correcting by our 2014 Prospect Draft.
 
477Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 10:44 		I wouldn't really care if one team had all 60 prospects. It would increase prospects trading and value cause we wouldn't have to punt them and could build up your "minor league system" while rebuilding. But I would still leave it at having less than 3 in order to make a pick.
 
478Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 11:41 		1. I was going to say that if there is an extension/exception, it should only be till the next All-Star Break, not to the Spring 2014 which would give people the benefit of holding prospects for a year-and-a-half!

In response to 474, I do not object to this change. It would be nice if things like this were brought up before they were voted on.

2. Unlimited accumulation of prospects would be a radical change to the game. it would greatly simplify rebuilding: trade all your talent for prospects and prospect picks, remember to set your lineup of pathetic scrubs each day so the commissioners don't get on you, and wait. It would certainly have made my rebuilding easier (and I never would have traded Profar and Myers).

As it is you can accumulate multiple prospects for a while, but you have the challenge of getting value for them before their expiry date, as Species did so successfully a few years ago. Just as you can put together a very talented team but must find a way to obtain value of everything beyond your 9 best players, before the keeper deadline.

We have limits on the number of prospects you can hold for the same reasons we have a limit on the number of keepers one can hold: equality and fairness.
 
479blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 12:48 		Good debate. I'd like to bring two items to the table. I'd vote yes for both of these, but I'll let Species or Ref bring them to an actual vote.

- Remove the 3-prospect limit entirely, effective immediately. If you have more than 3 picks at the prospect draft, you can have that many prospects.

- Increase the number of prospect picks per team per season from 3 to 4, effective with the 2014 prospect draft.

Have at it.
 
480R9
      ID: 53631918
      Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 21:00 		#478, Toral makes some good points. I was able to rebuild within the context of a 3-prospect cap, so I don't see a real issue with it. And being able to accumulate 10+ prospects could be rather extreme. Not sure which way I'd lean here, and my question (why do we even have a cap of 3) was answered pretty well, so...

GO's suggestion, that you have to have less then 3 to draft any new prospects, would seem to be a pretty good break on the 'lets stockpile 10 prospects' idea. I stockpiled 7 last draft, and I can tell you that one year later I wouldn't have wanted to keep those 7 at the expense of choosing someone new. (Wth happened to Hak-Ju Lee anyway? And Ryan Franklin?)

But I don't think anything here really needs to be tinkered, especially after some changes already. I'm fine with the 3-prospect cap.

I would also agree with #474, extending the non-cap until next ASB.
 
481Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 11:27 		A bonus of moving the prospect draft will be a clearer picture of which players from the MLB Draft actually signed contracts and didn't opt out and return to school like Appel might do.
 
482Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 19:24 		Here's another idea:

You trade keeper slots for prospect draft picks up to 2 per year. I could say I'm only keeping these 7 players, and making two extra prospect picks. I still only get to draft the same number of players in the regular draft, so the last two slots I will have to fill after the supp draft with free agents. This would really help rebuilding teams who dont have alot of keeper quality players anyways, but wont break the system.
 
483Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 22:09 		I am not a fan of that one. Encourages teams to throw in the towel and go young. We have enough giver uppers as is.
 
484Species
      ID: 286131221
      Thu, Jul 12, 2012, 22:13 		I will wait for some of the rest of the discussion to finish up before I put anything to a vote. 474 will end up going in for a vote.
 
485mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 12:11 		I don't yet know how I'll vote on the 474 proposal, but at the time of this year's p-daft 474 was not even considered or debated and for all intents and purposes is an unintended consequence of any p-draft rule changes.

So during this year's p-draft, knowing full well that Appel might chose to go back to school instead of signing, I chose him anyway, figuring if he didn't sign, I'd be able to replace him in March, next year.
 
486darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 22:55 		I'm in favor of making an exception as Species described in 474.
 
487GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 11:21 		Agree with 474
Think this is more a case of trying to get things changed prior to the draft and not necessarily catching all of the potential impacts of those changes.
 
488Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 14:43 		Here is something I do not think was mentioned. It is a wild thought so don't scream at me for it being stupid -- although it just might be...
As it is set now, eventually the goal is to have 9 keepers and 3 prospects on our rosters before the main draft.

What if there was a magic number of 12? That is the total number of keepers and prospects you can have. If you declare just 8 keepers you get to draft 4 prospects, 7/5 etc. if you hold only 8 keepers you miss out on one draft slot (7 keepers, two slots, etc.) your last pick(s) and you will need to fill your roster out via the WW/FA route.

It sounds crazy, but would it not give folks with lousy lineups a chance to rebuild sooner rather than later? Or not?

Just tossing this out -- I am sure certain people will shred the whole idea, but whatever...
 
489Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 14:45 		Oops correction:

If you declare just 8 keepers you get to keep or draft 4 prospects, 7/5 etc
 
490Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jul 14, 2012, 20:55 		Another correction. The max # of keepers would remain at 9.
 
491mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Sun, Jul 15, 2012, 14:18 		Lot to digest recently, so after re-reading everything, I think I have a clearer picture.

We already voted to change the prospect draft to March, so there's no reason not to have one in March, 2013. May not be too many picks, but you never know.

And the 474 exemption certainly seems fair, so I'm for it.
 
492Great One
      ID: 36214199
      Sun, Jul 15, 2012, 16:26 		Thats a pretty good idea and worth exploring Judy.
 
493Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Jul 15, 2012, 22:08 		Bh

Please explain to me how to use the loophole which enabled you to do the following on July 14/15 without waivers:

Jul 15 8:58 AM
LIPM added Shelley Duncan, Cle from FA to BE
LIPM dropped Chris Tillman, Bal to FA

Jul 14 2:40 PM
LIPM added Chris Tillman, Bal from FA to BE
LIPM dropped Shelley Duncan, Cle to FA

Jul 14 12:41 PM
LIPM added Shelley Duncan, Cle from FA to BE
LIPM dropped A.J. Griffin, Oak to W

Why did he not get sent to waivers when you dropped him? I don't get it.
 
494beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sun, Jul 15, 2012, 22:15 		Wow, guess I didn't drop Taylor and Wheeler before the draft. Was 99% sure I did but it probably got lost when I was bitching about bh picking up all the prospects.
 
495Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Sun, Jul 15, 2012, 22:55 		At a quick glance those roster moves might simply be adding/dropping a player on the same day doesn't send him to waivers.
 
496Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jul 15, 2012, 23:35 		I'm not sure. I wasn't really paying attention- just picked up the guy I wanted.
 
497Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 10:27 		495: Yes, that is correct. That is a loophole. You are able to use him for a game and drop him and pick up same player.
 
498Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 10:44 		I have been gone since I posted several days ago but it seems to me that in this 11-9 vote, some of the 11 didn't think through some of the possible consequences.

The problem with keeping more than 3 is that we would go over the 60 prospects. Those who traded all of their prospect picks get a new 3 prospects in March and those who trade for them have to renounce or add to keepers or get no new draft picks. The only way to effectively allow anyone to keep more than 3 is to not allow those who have less than 3 RIGHT NOW to draft in March's P-draft. We agreed from the get-go that we would never have more than 60 prospects. In such a deep league, those prospects have an impact on the league as it is. I am but one vote, but I will never vote to allow prospects to ever exceed 60.
 
499blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 11:52 		Can we get the recently-drafted prospects added to the league page?
 
500 Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 12:12 		Its been a trying season for team slizz...I am looking to trade off some of my keeper quality players (i.e. Matt Holliday) to a contender for prospects/players.

Email me or shoot an offer on over.
 
501mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 15:14 		498-that doesn't really seem fair to not allow those with less than 3 prospects right now to participate in the March 2013 p-draft. I drafted this year, keeping in mind the vote we just passed which was to change the p-draft to March. Picking Appel was a risk I was willing to take since if he did not sign, I'd be able to replace him in March 2013 under the new rules we just voted on.

At least one manager with more than 3 prospects already admitted to not realizing the ramifications of that vote, so we came up with 474 to give THEM the exception. Now your telling me that I have to wait until March 2014 to get my normal number of 3?

That just seems wrong. I was drafting with the new rules in mind and get penalized, while they get rewarded with an exemption for not realizing the unintended consequences of their vote.

And why is 60 prospects such an important number? My queue for this p-draft still had 5 names on it and there are certainly plenty more. Granting those with more than 3 prospects an exemption will put us over 60. As far as I know, I'm the only one with less than 3 prospects, and I only need 1 to get to my normal limit of three, so even if I'm excluded from the March 2013 p-draft, that still won't get us down to 60.
 
502mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 15:21 		Granting the exception of a league limit of 60 prospects until the 2013 ASB or whatever date would be more fair.
 
503Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 22:24 		497

That's a crappy loophole. Who has time to monitor all that? Is it an ESPN flaw?
 
504Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Mon, Jul 16, 2012, 22:34 		Judy - we did this whole discussion last year starting at post 961
 
505Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 08:28 		And that wasn't even this league. Why post it here?
 
506Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 09:36 		Prospects
(Draft Rounds 1-3, '04; 4-5, '05; 6-8, '06; 9-11, '07; 12-14, '08; 15-17, '09; 18-20, '10; 21-23, '11; 24-26, '12)
MGR: #, Name,Pos,Team,(# Call-ups)
Allhair: 18.11 Grant Green,SS,OAK; 21.02 Jameson Taillon,PIT,P; 24.05 Zach Wheeler,P,NYM
bmd: 15.14 Michael Taylor,OF,OAK; 21.17 CJ Cron,1B,LAA; 22.07 Tim Wheeler,OF,COL
Blue Hen:
Darkside: 24.09 Ryan Wheeler,1B,ARI; 25.05 Ryan Lavarnway,C,BOS; 26.01 Adam Eaton,OF,ARI
GoatLocker: 22.03 Zach Lee,P,LAD; 24.08. Christian Yelich,1B,MIA; 25.04 Kevin Gausman,P,BAL
Great One: 17.03 Casey Kelly,P,BOS; 19.08 Shelby Miller,SP,STL; 21.05 Gerrit Cole,P,PIT
Guru: 19.05 Lonnie Chisenhall,3B,CLE; 24.07 George Springer,OF,HOU; 25.03 Albert Almora,OF,CHC
Jaydog: 21.13 Miguel Sano,SS,MIN; 24.15 Matt Harvey,P,NYM; 25.07 Gary Brown,OF,SF
Judy: 18.08 Michael Choice,OF,OAK; 24.02 Archie Bradley,P,AZ; 25.02 Matt Sczcur,OF,CHC
mjd: 18.07 Zack Cox,3B,STL; 24.04 Mark Appel,P,PIT; 25.01 Tyler Austin,OF,NYY
Nerfherders: 21.09 Jacob Turner,P,DET; 22.04 Nolan Arenado,3B,COL; 24.01 Byron Buxton, MIN, OF
Peter N: 15.16 Josh Vitters,3B,CHC; 18.04 Martin Perez,P,TEX; 21.15 Jonathan Singleton,OF,HOU
Ref: 21.01 Anthony Rendon,3B,WAS; 22.01 Trevor Bauer,P,AZ; 24.11 Xander Bogaerts,SS,BOS
R9: 21.08 Carlos Martinez,P,STL; 22.09 Anthony Gose,OF,TOR; 23.01 Dylan Bundy,P,BAL; 24.10 Taijuan Walker,SP,SEA; 25.09 Kolten Wong,2B,STL; 26.02 Tyler Thornburg,SP,MIL
SlackYokel: 18.01 Bryce Harper,OF,Was(1); 19.04 Drew Pomeranz,SP,COL(1);24.06 Addison Brown,SS,OAK
Slizz: 21.06 Bubba Starling,OF,KC; 22.02 Tyler Skaggs,P,AZ; 24.03 Carlos Correa,HOU,SS
Species: 18.05 Wil Myers,OF,KC; 21.07 Jurickson Profar,SS,TEX; 24.14 Mason Williams,OF,NYY; 25.06 Francisco Lindor,SS,CLE
Toral: 21.12 Jake Odorizzi,P,KC
Tosh: 18.06 Manny Machado,SS,Bal; 21.16 Danny Hultzen,P,SEA; 24.13 Mike Zunino C,SEA; 24.16 Nick Castellanos,3B,DET
youngroman: 18.09 Julio Teheran,P,ATL; 21.10 Brett Jackson,OF,CHC;24.12 Jean Segura,2B,LAA
 
507blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 09:55 		Thanks Ref, and I see the League Note is updated too. Much obliged.
 
508Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 10:48 		Btw, for the P-draft, those prospects cutting down to 3 (or less) would NOT need to be kept as part of your 9 if they were not over the innings limit. After keepers are declared and before the P-draft declaration deadline, you could call-up prospects to add to your keepers. Obviously, you would lose draft picks at the end of your Supplemental draft (as always).
 
509Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 12:55 		I still have not received the $17 dues payment from either Slizz or Nerf. They are now way overdue.
 
510Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Tue, Jul 17, 2012, 13:10 		That was fast. Everyone has now paid!
 
511R9
      ID: 99272420
      Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 01:28 		Calling up Gose for the first time.

I love how Mike Trout and Craig Kimbrel have somehow propelled me to 10th place. I love me some prospects, but even I wasnt expecting so much, so soon...
 
512Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 15:39 		505 because the other league does not check the thread as often...and both are espn.
 
513blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 18:07 		Oh I see. I thought you were just trying to turn my G20 leaguemates against me. As if they needed a reason.

That thread is really rolling now - you should check it out.
 
514Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 18:44 		When I need answers I seek the wisdom of the g20 team managers...
 
515Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 22:23 		I would like to call a vote on the adjustment to the new Prospect Draft rules as outlined in Post 474....which basically says:

As a part of this rule change, a one-time exception to the 3-prospect rule will be given to those who had already accumulated prospect picks sufficient to give them more than 3 prospects at the completion of the 2012 Prospect Draft. The exception would extend the due date to cut down to 3 prospects to the All-Star Break of 2013.
 
517mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 23:48 		Any potential unintended cionsequences of this exemption? IE. Will those with more than 3 prospects be eligible to participate in the March 2013 p-draft?

Doesn't seem right that if you already have more than three prospects that you could renounce one or more and draft a replacement and still be over the limit of 3.
 
518mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 00:26 		Oliver Perez sighting tonight. First since 2010.
 
519Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 10:35 		515: The only managers who have more than 3 prospects right now are R9, Species and Tosh. Before the vote, I laid out how it would work and R9 and Species still voted to do it preseason. The vote ended 11-9. With this setup, prospects can be called up AFTER the 9 keepers. No one will be lost and they don't have to be among your 9 keeps, so it's like being able to draft a top prospect at the end of your draft. That's a pretty good deal. Now you want to get a free roster spot for 4 months and go over the 60 prospects during that time? I think this is another way to hoard prospects (even for four months) and 9 people already voted against that protection.We will always have a threshold check at end of season and ASG as we have always had.
 
520mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 12:54 		Just to be clear-it sounds like those currently with more than 3 prospects would have better off if they had voted A, but didn't fully think it through before 2 of the 3 voted B.

Now they realized the downside of voting B and want the league to vote for an exemption to allow them to circumvent the consequence of voting B, thus allowing them an extra 4 months to hold on to their additional prospects.

To me, granting this exception is just as bad, or maybe even worse than managers picking up prospects on their rosters to prevent them from being drafted in the p-draft which is what we were trying to prevent by voting for a change in the p-rules.

Essentially, we intended to close one loophole and now Species is trying to get us to vote for an exemption to open another that would only benefit 3 of the 20 league members.

I cannot and will not support that exemption.
 
521Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 13:27 		I can certainly understand the point of view in 520. But I acquired the extra draft pick well before any of these changes were discussed. We have always allowed a year before major changes like this place, because it could impact a team's strategy.

It does not seem right that my long-term strategy is penalized because some other managers grew weary of blue hen hoarding prospects.
 
522Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 13:28 		Guys, there's being a hardass about rules and there's using common sense in the spirit of the league. Some points:

1 - The 3 affected managers had made trades BEFORE this rule change.

2 - The exemption only gives us the same amount of time to have to cut down to 3 prospects as we would have had without a rule change.

3 - I voted for these rules against my own best interests because it was better for the league as a whole.

I freely admit I missed that detail. If that is just "tough $hit" on me.....fine. I am not trying to circumvent rules or gain an unfair advantage. I'm simply trying to retain the rights I had to have 4 prospects until the 2013 All Star Break when I made the trades.

There were managers that were late in declaring their prospect keepers. I could have said "tough $hit" about that. I didn't, because I used my judgment to decide that the manager was just effing BUSY (like I was around the 4th of July - and there were 50 effing posts around that time) and that they were neither trying to gain an unfair advantage nor take advantage of the rules.

The defense rests....I will live with the vote, whatever it turns out to be.
 
523Great One
      ID: 13046197
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 13:30 		I agree with all of Tosh/Species points.
 
524Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 20:12 		I'm fine with the exemption, but let's make it clear that any kind of prospect or prospect pick trade nullifies it- must be the same N keepers you have now.
 
525Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 19, 2012, 23:35 		Species, the only one who was allowed to declare late was Slizz and that was only because that player had already hit the threshold and wasn't a legal prospect anyhow.

I am all about working with people, but it is not like there is that tough of a penalty as you don't have to declare that player as one of your 9 keepers to keep him. You can add him to your team in place of the last draft pick of the last round. I am not trying to be a hardass at all.

I'm simply trying to retain the rights I had to have 4 prospects until the 2013 All Star Break when I made the trades. I voted to allow you to do that as did 8 others. My point was since by rule we can't exceed 60 prospects and now we are going to go up to 65 if we vote to allow your exception. I just disagree. Maybe you can convince 10 others to vote your way. I am just one vote. I don't think you are being put at a big disadvantage by having to put one player on your team for four months. R9 may have a tougher issue but he also has some studs he may be able to use right away.
 
526R9
      ID: 14634711
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 09:15 		I think both POV's have been laid out pretty well. Are we ready to vote?
 
527Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 10:07 		526: I was hoping more would weigh in...but can if you want.

I did a quick look at the 3 managers in question. It appears to me that Species will have Wil Myers ready for opening day. Tosh should have Hultzen and R9 has Gose already and will have Bundy this season. That leaves him with one player he'd have to call up who may not be ready as Martinez is just in AA right now.

Also, since managers with 3 or more prospects can't draft a player, nothing prevents them from adding via trade additional prospects. What if I traded my 3 prospects to say to someone to give me more players/draft picks just so I can have 3 more picks? I mean we'd be at 65 prospects now but we could go much muh higher under this "exemption."
 
528R9
      ID: 14634711
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 10:15 		The irony in that statement is that is exactly what Hen did in trading his picks to me; he gets 3 new ones in March now.

Also not sure why you think Bundy will be up permanently starting 2013, but that is just a baseball discussion (which we all love). My expectation is more like late 2013 or 2014.
 
529Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 10:40 		528: Absolutely agree with the bh statement. That's what I was getting at several posts earlier when I mentioned if the guys who went over get an exemption it should be at the expense of the managers who traded their picks only to get new ones in March. Basically all these rules we considered and ultimately decided on were to close loop holes that circumnavigate the spirit of our rules. To pick up players simply to thin the P-draft is a Bush move IMM and I think option A would have prevented that along with the hoarding. It still would have allowed us to draft at ASB and wouldn't have made us push up keepers by a week in preseason. But majority rules and we will make the best of it.

I read that Bundy will be called up this season when his team is eliminated.
 
530mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 13:14 		I don't see anything in the league constitution capping the number of prospects to 60 specifically. Just that each team must be down to 3 prospects by certain dates which would equal 60. (The exemption we're now debating.)

But there is this rule If you've traded two picks, you can only keep one and if you've traded all three, you may keep none.
 
531beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 13:25 		Just let them keep them until next ASB, doesn't seem like much of an advantage and it's not like they willingly gamed the system.
 
532blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 14:27 		Agree with 531. While I'd love to find a way to screw R9 and Species (who are in very good shape for 2014), it's just not that big a deal.
 
534mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 16:13 		I could see granting the exemption with a few conditions attached. I just don't want anyone to try to do anything to use, abuse, or otherwise circumvent the spirit or intent of this temporary exemption. No more unintended consequences or loopholes.

Plus any team exceeding 3 prospects cannot participate in the March 2013 p-draft.

Also, are we going to allow any additional teams to exceed the limit during this exemption period?



 
535Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 22:21 		534: That's just it. Floodgates opened. Not fair to not allow others to be in the same situation, yet I can already think of so many ways to game the system.
 
536darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 15:04 		I see both sides of it. I think Species and Tosh have a legit argument...especially the 'we usually wait a year before implement rule changes' bit. I also agree that it's not really a big deal. That said, I see what ref is saying as well.

If it came down to it, I'd probably vote in favor of the exemption so long as blue hen's 524 is part of it. I could see also see saying that only teams over the limit right now are eligible for it so as to address ref's concern in 535. I also just assume, as mentioned by mjd in 534, that these teams won't participate in the March 2013 prospect draft.
 
537Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 09:04 		WooHoo!!! Dodgers get Hanley! Now if Dempster gets his wish and goes to LA...

At least I finally have a good Dodgers player on my team. Hoping he goes to SS at least for the rest of the year so he is SS eligible next ssn.
 
538blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 09:44 		Hey guys, let's stop talking about stupid stuff like rules and procedure and get to some smack talk! I finally get to first place, and you guys just stop talking. Lousy.

Hey Slackjawed Yokel - you gonna make a move this season? 7 moves? Really? Jaydog proves that you can win with just a few moves, but you have to, you know, actually win.

Hey Nerf - Kevin Millwood? I know the Mariners were desperate, but I guess that makes you the M's of G20. You going to pick up Greg Maddux while you're at it?

And all you teams 11 and below - you're STILL below Species and BMD? Sad. And that's a statement about Species and BMD - they appear to be bad at tanking, too.

That's right, until you guys start playing better and catch up to me, you're going to have to put up with this smack talk. Deal with it.



 
539Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 12:28 		A little experiment with Miguel Gonzalez today and Luis Mendoza tomorrow.
Lets see if two guys I can't pick out of a lineup improve my season long 4.50 ERA produced by Lester, Lincecum and Moore.
 
540Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:47 		Well that went well. Nobody needs a hitter for a solid SP?
 
541Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 22:15 		I have sent prospects Rendon and Bogaerts to Slizz as well.
 
542Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 22:27 		Confirmed.
 
543Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 22:45 		Wow, Slizz and PD got absolutely hosed.
 
544beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 22:45 		Trade rationale please.
 
545R9
      ID: 99272420
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 00:56 		I like prospects more then anybody, but two prime hitters for two non-top 10 prospects (who are both likely 2014+ arrivals) isnt ever a good deal...
 
546Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 08:22 		I share the general impression of the merits of the trade that has beex expressed, but perhaps its defence needs only to be that the trader announced his desire back at post 100 to trade Holliday and others for prospects/players and that he took the berst offer he got. When you've desided to part with a 32-tear-old player there's no point in holding onto him for another year in the hope that a better offer will be forthcoming.
 
547Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 08:43 		I think Rendon is pretty valuable whatever he may be ranked right now.
 
548blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:00 		I don't think I would have traded Freese all by himself for the pile of garbage returned, let alone with Holliday and the others.

Bernadina was added July 23.
Morales was added June 19.
McGehee was added June 15.
Maybin has been a massive disappointment.

None of the above has done anything since being added to Ref's roster, and ownership numbers bear that out.

Slizz or PD, please post a logical rationale for this trade, or we can live with the assumption that you are either:
- Trying to help Ref win
- A terrible manager
 
549Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:15 		WOW!!! All I can say is that if you don't like the deal, veto it. I'm having buyer's remorse anyhow. I finally have great prospects and I deal them. I have had so many offers for my guys--SOOOOOOOOOOO many--some from the posters about how bad this trade is--and suddenly they aren't worth much. This deal is basically Holliday and Freese for Maybin and the two prospects. If Holliday hit HRs like he used to...well not even going there. Problem with my team is that I need Hanley to be SS eligible as I have a logjam at 3b. Is this deal going to help me win this season? No way. If Rendon doesn't mess his ankle up he is up next ssn probably. He was the #1 prospect for the Nats and one of the top prospects overall before the injury and now he's back. Bogaerts was like #18 overall when I drafted him this month. Bauer skipped through the minors and I have had a ton of inquiries about him as well.

Slizz told me he is setting up his long range team and does not have Holliday in those plans. I like Holliday because he is steady and gets the OBP I can't seem to find. I know he's older and won't ever get me those homers but I essentially lost out on any chance to be a contender because I can't get my OBP to do anything and my closers got hurt.

Side note, Holliday, Freese and Boesch were all on my team before. I traded Holliday at the keeper deadline for a 2nd rounder the year he went nuts and I cut the other two. Patience is not a virtue of mine.
 
550Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:56 		I'm in the same place as Toral in 546, with some extra flavor.....which is basically:

If you think that trade was poor.....then why the eff didn't YOU come in and make an offer?

I can count on ONE HAND how many times a manager has approached ME with a trade thought/proposal/offer/discussion in the last 2-3 years. When I announce (on multiple occasions) that I have stars like CC Sabathia, Curtis Granderson and Mark Teixeira on the block and get exactly 2 inquiries (one from blue hen which hardly counts, as it is (unfortunately) a cold day in hell before we consummate a trade together), then something is wrong. Maybe I am perceived as someone tough to trade with....or maybe those guys are too "over the hill", but geez.

We have a variety of managers who are rebuilding or stuck in neutral.....how many forward-thinking trades have been made? Not many. At least slizz is out there looking for the best deal he could get for an aging (but still very effective) All-Star.
 
551Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 11:08 		BTW, my "If you think that trade was poor.....then why the eff didn't YOU come in and make an offer? line was more a statement towards the general lack of trading in the league as a whole and not an indictment of any single manager (or of the managers who expressed a dissenting opinion of the trade. It was more my chance to rant about the lack of trading :)
 
552Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 11:18 		I also always feel like I am chasing trades... my trade with Pete earlier this year was the first time I can remember that someone reached out to me to work on something that wasn't initiated by me. And we all know I'm willing to pay! :)

I have written multiple times above and also used the ESPN trading block to simply move a hitter for a pitcher. I can't imagine one person in this league doesn't have a decent pitcher to move for the guys I put on there - Morse, Santana, Weeks, Rollins, Rios.
 
553Ref
      ID: 13211515
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 12:17 		I should have said inquiries not offers. And any time I make an inquiry the respondent always comes back with strasburg, rendon, Bauer or Hanley. BH, enough with calling people terrible managers. Every deal where you perceive someone got the better end and you are not involved and they are unfit to manage.
 
554Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 13:48 		Ref and I had been going back in forth for the past few days about this trade and he wanted to compete for money this year. Ref stated he was willing to be aggressive in the acquisition of Holliday. Ref needed OB% and Saves.

BH - I didn't return your email as you basically said you'd give me J.D. Martinez (HOU) and your 2013 8th rd pick in exchange for Holliday, Frank Francisco and my 2013 9th rd pick. In fairness, you did not need another outfielder given your depth so that was likely a throwaway offer. That was "garbage" in comparison with what I got from Ref. If that offer was any indication of what I was going to get from the rest of the league, Ref brought the best game in town. Combine that with the fact I wanted to get a deal done before our prospect rules changed.

What led me to this point? My team had a string of bad luck to start the year:

-Soria needs Tommy John days after making keeper declarations.
-Luebke needs Tommy John after his 2nd or 3rd start
-Brett Gardner
-Early Rd picks didn't pan out (Buchholz over Sale, Duda instead of Trumbo due to 1B eligibility and guaranteed AB's, etc.)

Its a shame as I was atop the standings for the first 3 weeks of the season before my guys started to fade...a nosedive then occurred leading me to where we were today...needing to look to the future. PD and I discussed shopping Holliday a couple months back if our fortunes did not change while he still is a premium commodity. Ref was aggressive and came with the best offer.

I wanted to get Maybin as part of the deal as he wasn't helping Ref too much in the categories Ref needed. Maybin gives me a guy who is a 8th-9th keeper with upside that I wanted in return for a guy like Matt Holliday. He's still young and has the tools to be a fantasy stud, or at least replace the production Brett Gardner brought to my lineup. I learned a lesson by giving up too soon on prospects like that and cut them only to see them breakout the following year: Adam Jones and Austin Jackson. Maybin has that type of potential and my hope is that they could eventually figure it out, like Adam Jones and Austin Jackson. Ref was OK with parting with Maybin as well b/c he needed the OB% Holliday would give in return.

I hear alot of fuss about Holliday's age. He will be 32 next year and has consistent returns making planning for draft day easy. You can expect a near .400/25/100/100/5 each year from the guy and with hitters producing into their mid 30's...Ref will likely get that production for the next 3-4 years. Look at the guys like Konerko, Beltran, Berkman, etc.

So the structure for the trade was set in place:

-Maybin for Holliday/Francisco (Mets are paying him closer money and he gives owners cheap saves as hes a non-keeper).

Now we just needed to get to compensation and I made it clear I wanted one of his prospects / picks. Ref than asked about the availability of Freese before we got to pick / prospect compensation and I said lets do it.

Why did I get rid of Freese for so little?

Todd Frazier. To quote Bleacher Report:

A lot has been made of Bryce Harper's rookie campaign, and rightfully so. Harper's impressed players, managers and fans with his hustle and on-field attitude and he's played impressively considering he's just 19 years old.

Harper may seem to be a slam dunk for the 2012 National League Rookie of the Year Award; however, the Cincinnati Reds have their own young player who's beginning to make waves in the majors.

Todd Frazier is outperforming the vast majority of NL rookies in 2012.

In 70 games played, Frazier is slashing .285/.347/.542 with 10 HR, 33 RBI, 27 runs and 15 doubles.

Harper, in 75 games, is slashing .272/.343/.449 with nine HR, 29 RBI, 50 runs 15 doubles and 13 steals.

Among NL rookies, Frazier is first in SLG (.542), OPS (.890) and triples (five), second in RBI (33) and HR (10), third in AVG (.285) and OBP (.347), fifth in doubles (15) and sixth in walks (20) and runs (27).

Todd Frazier is the 3B of the future in Cincinnati (we all know that park is notorious for returning favorable fantasy stats). Todd Frazier is 2 years younger than Freese and already has a better OPS. He will be starting full time next season and I expect him to make strides to produce better #'s than Freese long term.

So it than became:

-Maybin/pick(s)/prospect(s) for Freese/Holliday/Francisco.

I didn't care about the rest of the guys Ref gave me in return as I do not have any plans in keeping those guys. Ref asked if I could help him out by giving him some additional hitting in Boesch for the stretch run and since we have built up goodwill in previous deals, I had no problems helping him out there. I wasn't keeping Boesch, neither is he and right now he is hitting hot...so I was helping out a friend with the inclusion of him. *NOTE* That's one lesson I learned in my business dealings (real life) that you should always leave something on the table. You rip off someone or really take them to the cleaners, they won't want to do business with you again. Same applies here. You burn someone in a trade, your reputation is hurt for future deals. Boesch was just that...something on the table for Ref.

1B - Morneau?? (can he recapture his old magic? i'm willing to wait)
2B - Uggla
3B - Frazier
SS - Gordon
OF - Maybin
UT - Duda?? (warrants discussion if he retains 1B eligibility)
SP - Niese
SP - Buchholz??
SP - Burnett?? (Contract year...AJ is always $$$ in a contract year)
SP - Liriano?? (Say he goes to a pitchers park...those K/9 and his production since being recalled warrant keeping)
RP - Cook
RP - Soria

So I saw Freese as expendable...risky proposition because I dk what the future holds for Morneau or Duda...but at the same time I think odds favor something panning out with those two.

So now that you read this long winded rationale, I'll get to the selling point:

-This is the only time we can keep more than 3 prospects as my squad will be grandfathered into the new rule.
-Depending on what sites you use to rank prospects, I will have nearly 25% of the top 25 prospects in the game on my team. (Skaggs, Correa, Starling) all top 20 and now Rendon (top 10) and Boagerts (fringe top 30).

Ref loses those spots but will get to replenish his system in next years prospect draft.

Ref was apprehensive about giving up two prospects and initially only wanted to give up an early draft pick and Boagerts. I was insistent on both Boagerts and Rendon plus the draft pick. I eventually dropped my demand of a draft pick if that would get the deal done and Ref felt that was fair. Done deal.
 
555Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 14:07 		Uhh...no prospect keeper rule change has been approved yet, and the exception as proposed by Species specifically applies only to people with more than 3 prospects before the timing of the prospect draft was changed. So you'll be keeping only 3 prospects.
 
556slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 14:44 		We were under the impression I would be able to retain their rights. I don't see why I wouldn't.

 
557Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 15:00 		That's odd. Ref by his previous comments would be the last person to support such a rule. i wonder why he changed his mind, if he did.
 
558beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 15:04 		I don't think so and wouldn't agree to a rule change that allows anyone else to acquire prospects above the amount that were on that persons roster before we enacted the initial prospect change. If that's the case, I might as well just trade Michael Taylor and Tim Wheeler to anybody that already has 3 prospects since there's a 100% chance I'm not keeping them as prospects.

If you acquired those prospects under the premise that you could keep them then the trade should be voided.
 
559Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 15:18 		I don't know when the negotiations were initiated, but it seems to me that concluded negotiations which began before a rule change might have a valid claim to being allowed.
 
560Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 15:50 		Not sure what you are talking about there PD. The rule change happened long ago, well before these negotiations were initiated/completed.

The proposed exception was for the three managers that were impacted by trades prior to the new rule.
 
561Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 15:51 		Slizz actually added Francisco to the deal. I had to look him up as he's on the DL still. I had absolutely no intention of sending two prospects to Slizz. May regret it.

Prospects: Species has asked to vote on an exception to the new rule. Problem is that it needs to come up with the right wording so everyone is on the same page. I am not calling a quick vote until all the details are finalized. As I stated before, it is absolutely not fair to let those three managers have an exception and not let anyone else over three to also have that exception. R9 could end up have a dozen prospects if we allowed that to happen. If we are going to allow some kind of an exception, everyone should be able to have that opportunity if desired.
 
562beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 16:19 		As of now I'm vetoing the trade. Slizz obviously thought he could keep 5 prospects and that's just not the case.

I think the best solution, and a solution we've discussed a little in the past, is to allow managers the ability to retain rights of other players prospect slots. For example, Ref trades Rendon and Bogaerts and 2 keeper prospect slots. This would allow managers to go above the 3 prospect keeper rule but at the same time keeping the number of prospects at 60 at any given time.

There does to need to be an exception for those that had already been over the allotment BEFORE we finalized the rules. It's should be pretty straight forward(for example, R9 is allowed to keep 6 prospects until AS break 2013 when he must be down to 3)
 
563Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 16:23 		Good ideas BMD. Those 2 prospects could also be considered future considerations.
So leave them in Ref's slots but asterisk them... and Slizz can call them up when ready. Same end result.
 
564Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 16:42 		562: Then veto it.

The rules WERE finalized before the Prospect Draft. Now the prospect draft is done, there is a call for an exception. If you want to add a prospect slot hold for the future, then you have to go back and do it for the ones who already traded to allow r9, tosh and Species to go over 3 as well. I have said that all along. I have no ill-will toward what anyone else has been able to do. All I am saying is that is that it is unfair to allow 3 managers to get something that the other 17 are unable to get.
 
565Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 16:47 		To my understanding the prospect exemption rule was never finalized. I don't understand why this has to be difficult. Both sides are happy. There is no collusion.

Bmd - Its a good idea but Ref shouldn't be penalized because he gave up good prospects who developed while in his system.

I'm sacrificing now to put my team in a position to hopefully succeed later. Thats the beauty of this league...that flexibility.
 
566beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 16:52 		Ref, nobody else seemed to have a problem with carving an exception out for them except you. These guys made the right decision for the league and we shouldn't penalize them for it. Obviously, we'd make it so they can't keep acquiring prospects. If they happen to acquire more before we vote to enact(which I don't think any of them are even remotely actively trying to do) then we can just tell them they have to drop x amount before the draft.
 
567beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 16:54 		Slizz, are you happy with dropping 2 prospects next spring? That's what you are going to have to do as of now.
 
568Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:05 		566: you mean no one else has been vocal about it in this thread. If you are going to "carve an exception" for these three managers and 5 prospects, then you need to prevent those five picks to be made from the players who traded them. They weren't looking to get more prospect draft picks, right? Slizz said he had two prospects he would be calling up if need be. I still submit that since all it costs is your last draft picks to call someone up that it's only a roster spot until July anyhow--and some of those guys would have been called up before then. The only one I think would suffer is R9 for one guy.

You say that these managers sacrificed to do what is best for the league when the vote was 11-9. Just one manager votes the other way and the change doesn't happen. I feel like my thoughts are the fairest for the league, but maybe I have lost perspective and don't comprehend what that is anymore and should step aside. I don't have the time needed anyhow.
 
569Species
      ID: 124591311
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:11 		Thank you slizz for your post. One might debate Holliday and Freese's relative value, but obviously slizz gave it sufficient thought and actually has a game plan for his team.

I never thought I'd say this (/sarcasm), but I am 100% with toral on posts 555 and 557 and am particularly befuddled as to how slizz would come to the conclusion that the proposed exception would apply to his trade.....and if Ref helped convince him of that, then that gives me the heebie jeebies.

I obviously don't agree with Ref's continued vehement objections to the exception. The 3 teams already legitimately owned over 3 prospect slots when we made a rule change....the exception isn't to grant them rights that others don't have - the exception is intended to protect rights those teams already owned to hold on to those prospect until the 2013 All-Star break.
 
570beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:22 		Ref, I think if people really had a problem with the carve exception they would speak up. Maybe I'm wrong because our thread is dominated by a few managers and all of them were fine with the carve out exception except you.
 
571Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 17:23 		569: It amazes me when people assume that people I trade with have no idea what they are doing and I convince them of crap.

Just VETO the deal. I am done with this. I am not going to commish a league that I have to have my integrity questioned. BMD has already said what is going to happen, so I will give him commish powers. I am fine with people having a differing opinion than me, but Heaven forbid I give anyone else the heebie jeebies. You all act like just because those vocal thinks it's a good idea that everyone agrees with you, but I'm here to tell you that it's not the case.
 
572Species
      ID: 124591311
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 18:01 		Slizz : While we can debate the value involved, nobody is threatening to veto the trade over collusion or it being too imbalanced. The only veto consideration here is vetoing it if you thought you could keep all 5 prospects past our next Prospect Draft in March 2013. Obviously this is being done with an eye towards protecting you.

I have basically the same question as bmd in #567, slizz......did you, or did you not realize when you made this trade that you would have to cut back to 3 prospect come March 2013?

Ref - I based my comments in #569 based upon slizz' post #556 - which says "We were under the impression I would be able to retain their rights". Did slizz misspeak in that post??
 
573beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 18:21 		Ref, not trying to put you on the defense. I'd prefer not to commish this league because I know how much goes into it and our current commishes have done a great job.

I was pretty outspoken against bh when he was bending/stretching some of our rules. I'm trying to make this league even more awesome. I know this year has been a headache so far for the commishes and I apologize for that. I definitely don't hold any sway over votes(if that's what you are implying in 571) as the only person I talk to on a regular basis outside of this thread and the occasional email is bh.

I wish more people would speak up if they disagree with stuff. Participation, winning, and trash talking is what makes fantasy leagues fun. We've had this league for ~10 years and we've had our ups and downs but overall it's been a pretty kick ass league.

 
574Peter N.
      ID: 386142619
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 20:15 		I don't question ref's integrity. I've played in leagues with ref for over a decade(football, basketball, baseball). He's an excellent trade negotiator and very persuading. That doesn't make him a bad person. I do get frustrated on how he pulls these trades off, but that by no means I question his integrity.

I also have respect for Slizz who I've played in several leagues with. I do think he's getting the short end of the stick on this one, but seq# 554 is a very detailed breakdown of how the trade went down. There's no doubt in my mind Slizz / PD made this trade for what they thought was in the best interest of their team.

One portion of seq# 554 that is causing me some pause is that Slizz was under the impression this trade would be grandfathered in and he'd be allowed to keep all of the prospects. That seems like the major piece of the deal for Slizz(getting those extra prospects and having the flexibility). At this point, I'm inclined to veto it because it was under false assumptions.
 
575Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 21:18 		Here is what frustrates me about the "proposed" prospect cap:

It mitigates trading in this league. In the MLB when teams are fading or out of it, they trade their stars for future stars to teams in contention. That gives the teams involved both a short term (Ref) and long term benefit (my squad).

Most of all, there is no saying any of those prospects will even amount to anything (see Alex Gordon)...but at least I get the hope they will become franchise cornerstones. More players you have, the better odds that one will develop.

By limiting it to 3 prospects for all its keeping the league status quo. It makes the squads that are mediocre toil in mediocrity while the contenders stay in contention. It restricts movements in trades and forces a team to pick from the scraps nobody else wanted to keep.

Hypothetical Example: Hey how about a 17th (8th rd) round pick and JD Martinez for Holliday? I can't trade you prospects because you have three already but this is the best I can do!!!! I can't give you any good players because I am in contention already. That's the caliber of offers you can expect to see from here on out due to the restriction placed on prospects.

Believe me, I want to give Holliday to Ref so I can help the future prospects of my squad. I'm not one who likes to throw away contributors so I can hoarde prospects either. I want to compete but I just don't see any other way.

For every Mark Trumbo in the draft, there are a bunch of Brent Morels, Lucas Dudas, Tyler Greenes, etc. Its not like G24 where you keep 9 and have no farm system and the rest are thrown into a draftable pool. You end up with a pool of prospects who aren't even owned in 12 team leagues!!!!
 
576Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 21:22 		As far as my prospects go...only two have a chance of getting to the show next year: Skaggs and Rendon (pending development). Skaggs is the #3 guy on ESPN's board so it wouldn't surprise me to see him on an opening day roster...I wouldn't expect to see Correa, Starling, or Boagerts until 2014 at the earliest...so no way I would keep them on a spring 2013 roster.
 
577beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 21:54 		slizz, we are working on changing the system. My proposed rule from an earlier post:

"I think the best solution, and a solution we've discussed a little in the past, is to allow managers the ability to retain rights of other players prospect slots. For example, Ref trades Rendon and Bogaerts and 2 keeper prospect slots. This would allow managers to go above the 3 prospect keeper rule but at the same time keeping the number of prospects at 60 at any given time."
 
578Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 22:17 		We need to get the status of the trade settled soon, before Holliday, Freese et. al. start accumulating stats for Ref.

I suppose the first question is to Slizz: if you can only keep 3 prospects before the 2013 PD, do you want the trade to go through anyway? If the answer is yes, then there is no hurry in holding a vote on the Prospect Draft transitional rules.

If the answer is No, then the trade should be reversed, to be put through again if a rule is passed allowing Slizz to keep 5 prospects before the 2013 PD. In thia case, it would be wise to hold a vote on the Transitional Rules quickly so that Ref can get the benefit of Holliday et al. I would guess there would be two Transitional Rules to be voted on, the one allowing only teams with more than 3 prospects after this year's PD to keep their prospects in surplus of 3, and whatever rule someone wished to propose that would allow Slizz (and everybody, I assume) to keep more than 3 prospects at the 2013 PD. I will offer a wording for the first alternative tomorrow if no one else does.

After this immediate matter is settled it would be possible to consider any of the more substantial changes to prospect keeping that are being discussed above.
 
579Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 06:50 		Here is a proposed rule enacting the "Species Compromise":

Transitional Rule: At the 2013 prospect draft keeper deadline, managers who had more than 3 prospects at the end of the 2012 prospect draft (“exception teams”) may keep up to as many prospects as they had then (i.e., 4 or 5). If these managers keep more than 3 prospects, every such keeper must be a player who they owned at the end of the 2012 prospect draft. Other teams that acquire a prospect from the exception teams cannot keep more than 3 prospects. All exception teams must reduce their keepers to no more than 3 before the first day of MLB baseball games after the 2013 All-Star Break. (This rule may be deleted from these rules after this first day of games and as soon as exception teams’ keeper lists have been reduced to 3, either by their own action or by the commissioners if an exception team fails to reduce its keepers.)

If you can draft it better, have at it.

I'm not sure what exactly what alternate rule will be proposed, but it might say something like
Transitional Rule: At the 2013 prospect draft keqper deadline all managers may keep up to 5 prospects.
If that's what the idea is.
 
580Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 10:50 		That wording seems reasonable to me. It certainly was never my intention to grandfather in any additional "powers" than that.
 
581Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 12:05 		So why am I so outspoken against what some might say is an innocuous exception?

Well it goes like this...the rules were forced to be changed because of the "tactics" that undermined our system by a small minority of managers. I thought bmd crafted a nice proposal that would have essentially eliminated these tactics without changing out system at all. The other proposal was to change everything and add another draft pre-season and move up all of our timelines and re-tool our prospects. Of course the commish was left to figure out how everything would work. Once that was figured out--everything was laid out into proposals. Almost half the league wanted it left the way it was with bmd's tweak. A tweak bmd didn't even vote for.

So the preseason vote won out 11-9. Majority rules. I am fine with that. But then when Species realizes he is going to have to call up someone to his team AFTER keepers are due, he wants an exception to PROTECT him. He said he didn't read or understand the proposal and may have voted the other way had he understood that. R9 may have done the same. If that had happened, the entire vote would have went the other way. But now, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Best for the league? I disagree. Species and R0 are two of the best managers in this league and they know prospects. No way do they want their prospects they hoard plucked form their team. It gives me the heebie jeebies to say Species voted to what was best for the league instead of his team. :) I'll submit that if the vote was 18-2 or Species and R9 had voted the other way, it would be a little different in my mind.

Prospect max: When we added prospects originally (on a 11-9 vote), we said that no matter what, we'd never go above 60 total prospects. I understand that things happen and I am very open to change. But what doesn't make sense is that if they get to keep those extra five, what bout those managers who just traded their picks and get to make picks again in the Spring? They voted knowing they'd get those five picks. Is it fair to them to take away those picks by having placeholders? Probably not.

Slizz: The current rule is that you have to get down to three after keepers are declared. Slizz knows this is the rule as does everyone else contemplating trades. That was the rule that was voted on and won out 11-9. There was no exception for those three managers in that proposal. Now you are trying to craft the "Species Exception" (not compromise) but only include the three at the ASB. I think if you are going to grandfather managers, you need to include everyone who is over 3 before the new rule has been made. I still submit that several managers take flyers on prospects in the draft and to lose your last pick to call up a player is very cheap--esp when 4 of the 5 will likely be called up anyhow.

578: What are you talking about. I told you to veto it if you didn't like it and you didn't.

574: Pete, you know I love you bro, but beating that drum that I pull off these lopsided trades all the time is really old and unfair. How many times have I been on the wrong end of lopsided trades. Remember how many times you apologized to me a couple years ago when you screwed me over not once, but twice in this league? It happens. I am a risk taker. I gamble. I lose more than I win. Remember several years ago when people quit over a trade I made and then 3 or 4 weeks later everyone apologized to me after my end of the deal was much much worse?

Give managers some credit. Just because they are betting on futures rather than current stats doesn't nec. mean they are terrible managers. When I developed these leagues it was for maximum flexibility. They were designed so even the managers who were out of it that season, still had maximum flexibility to improve their team in the future. I loved playing in leagues with Mike D et al where everyone was open to trading and changing their team. I abhor draft and play leagues where trading is stagnant. The only thing you can do is keep hoping that you can find someone on the FA wire who pans out big. I tried to make it so our deep leagues would be fresh. keeping everyone interested all the time. Problem is that this league has become stagnant lately. Many will not trade unless it involves your top player(s). Many won't take the time.When I find the perfect trade partner who has too much of what you need and vice versa--they are not interested in trading. So fine, you want one of my big time players or prospects, then I am going to need your sin return. Most say no way they are untouchable. I realize you have to give to get. But when there is a blockbuster deal--all hell breaks loose unless it is perceived to be a perfectly even trade of current year stats. No wonder no one wants to subject themselves to that.

bh: lolu!! I have even gotten an email of a screenshot you posted to your facebook page talking about how bad this trade is, when you offered what you offered to Slizz. Really? But he is a terrible manager. Spare me. In 3 or 4 years when Holliday is done and these two prospects may be thriving, you will be saying how short-sighted I was. But that's the beauty of this league. I know my Arod deal blew up in my face. Really got hosed on that one. But just like GO, I am not afraid to go for it. We both end up on the wrong side of deals at times, but you don't remember those.

Finally, I think this whole discussion and process has been disrespectful to Slizz and myself. Please give the managers who did the work and research and created activity in this league the benefit of the doubt. Research the prospects and players involved if need be. Maybe you wouldn't have done this trade and that's fine. Maybe you still think one side got over on the other. That is fine too. Discuss it if you want. State your opinions as to why--that is all good. But please stop short of calling our managers terrible or talking about vetoing to "protect" them even after Slizz writes a book on why he made this deal. Maybe you think I am not being genuine, but I am still having Buyer's Remorse but I have also been following these prospects for awhile too. So have those of you who have inquired about them or required them in any deal you'd make with me. As far as Slizz opinion that he should be grandfathered simply is a statement that he agrees with my opinion on the whole prospect rule and any future proposal or exception. In HIS negotiations to me was the fact that he kept saying, 'c'mon ref, you know that you are going to be able to draft two new guys come this Spring.' To imply that I did something underhanded that would bring rise to "heebie jeebies" blows my mind.
 
582beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 14:11 		How many vetoes were there and how many people voted?
 
583Species
      ID: 124591311
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:07 		Ref:

1) was the point ever confirmed by slizz as to whether he made this trade believing he could keep all 5 prospects?????

2) what precisely is your interpretation of slizz' post #556? If you both had an understanding, what was YOUR side of that understanding.

Directing my focus back to the "Species Compromise"....

I disagree with your very dismissive solution.....which is basically (if I am interpreting that correctly) "Just call one up". (or 2 in R9's case). Wouldn't that involve having to RENOUNCE them as prospects? If so, we lose a LOT more than "a roster spot until July". What if one of those prospects blows out his arm during that time? We are then poop-screwed and have lost prospect rights to them.

Strasburg is a perfect example. He blew out his elbow and needed Tommy John......within merely a dozen or so innings under our limit. But our callup/send down system worked as intended, and you got the beneft of stashing Strasburg on the prospect list another year. I don't want to lose my right to do so on my extra prospect when I had already "paid" for those rights thru ASB 2013..

We have all stated our cases. I have already called for a vote. When I get home tonight I will email the league and ask for the vote as outlined in Toral's post #579 and the league can decide.
 
584Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 22:12 		As per my email, I am putting the following to a vote. Arguments for and against are within this thread.

Transitional Rule: At the 2013 prospect draft keeper deadline, managers who had more than 3 prospects at the end of the 2012 prospect draft (“exception teams”) may keep up to as many prospects as they had then (i.e., 4 or 5). If these managers keep more than 3 prospects, every such keeper must be a player who they owned at the end of the 2012 prospect draft. Other teams that acquire a prospect from the exception teams cannot keep more than 3 prospects. All exception teams must reduce their keepers to no more than 3 before the first day of MLB baseball games after the 2013 All-Star Break. (This rule may be deleted from these rules after this first day of games and as soon as exception teams’ keeper lists have been reduced to 3, either by their own action or by the commissioners if an exception team fails to reduce its keepers.)
-------------------------------------

Please vote "Yes" or "No".

Thanks.
 
585Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 22:17 		I vote yes.
 
586Great One
      ID: 126212721
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 22:21 		Yes.
 
587Beastiemiked
      ID: 253102623
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 23:50 		Yes
 
588youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 03:23 		yes
 
589Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 07:02 		apologies for not being as responsive as I was the past few days. I have been working nights so sleep is a premium to me.

nevertheless, the deal was made with the mindset that I would be able to keep those 5 prospects. Simple as that. I know it was up for discussion and no concrete rules were made. Depending on what side of the fence you fall on, the deal benefits both teams and I hope can serve as a blueprint for future trade activity.

I might not be the best "Rotisserie" manager but I thoroughly enjoy this league and competing with you all.

As to the proposal - Yes
 
590Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 07:31 		Yes
 
591Slackjawed Yokel
      ID: 38502923
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 09:05 		Yes
 
592GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 10:29 		Yes
 
593mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 13:15 		I abstain.

I think that moving the p-draft from the ASB was a move that eventually will be deemed a mistake.
 
594darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 13:51 		Yes
 
595Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 14:01 		After getting some sleep I had a chance to re-read what I voted on. The "Exception Teams" part I thought WOULD apply to me. If it doesn't apply to me, I change my vote to NO.
 
596Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 14:03 		Yes
 
597Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 15:02 		Yes
 
598R9
      ID: 40623279
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 15:03 		Yes.

Some thoughts:
I have zero problem with the trade at all. I made one (probably pretty snide ;) ) comment about it, which was basically my opinion on the trade after looking it over for about 30 seconds. Presumably both managers thought about it a bit longer then that, and thus are probably more knowledgable about its effects on their teams. As usual for me, with no accusations of collusion I support the trade 100%. Two managers came up with something they both wanted to do: End of story (IMO).

I don't think Slizz got great value from Holliday, but I'm also someone who got nothing for Utley and Abreu during their age 32-33 seasons, so the market just really isnt there for aging guys. And it's not a lack of G20 trading activity; there just aren't a lot of contenders who would want to part with prospects AND have to keep one less of their strong core guys. (They are contending after all). Holliday is a keeper for anyone, but a lot of contenders would be dumping a pretty good 9th guy off their keeper list in a trade too... Given all that, Slizz did just fine.

As far as this rule change. Bottom line is, we usually only implement rule changes a year later so that nobody gets caught the way Species, Tosh and I did. In the end I'll live with whatever is decided, but I'm not looking for special status here; I view it as: "Let's change it this year and cover for the 3 people who would get screwed by it, instead of waiting 12 months for something we want now."

I think we can all stop with the integrity questioning silliness. We could also stand to have a tougher skin. I know it's baseball (where guys go on the DL with hangnails) but its still a sport!! Toughen up kids! ;)
 
599mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 16:02 		584-where's the provision not allowing those with more than 3 prospects to participte in the March, 2013 p-draft?

 
600beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 16:19 		Were there any picks in the Dempster for Clippard and Rodney trade?
 
601Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 18:50 		Yes.

Again, it doesn't apply to Slizz since he acquired the extra prospects after the p-draft.

I just want to take a second to echo the sentiment- I love playing in this league.

Ben Sheets is available for your best closer.
 
602Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 06:23 		That's terrible.

We made a mountain out of preventing me from keeping two extra prospects and to protect those other three managers.

::eyeroll::
 
603beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 14:24 		Slizz, the trade could've easily been vetoed if you just spoke up and said you thought you'd be able to keep all the prospects.
 
604Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 15:12 		Slizz, three managers made trades with no knowledge that the value received would change. Your trade was made after the details had been worked out. No reason for you to get the same exception.
 
605Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 18:37 		bmd [600] - No picks. Just the players.

Vote - Yes.
 
606Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 18:43 		So shouldn't that trade (Slizz/Ref) be vetoed automatically by the commish, and the stats reversed? I don't understand why it went through when it seems to be the consensus that doing so will put Slizz' team over the allowable limits.
 
607beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 21:33 		PD, I vetoed it and I know others were considering it. I guess it didn't reach the required 7 votes. Slizz should've came out and said, if I can't keep them please veto the trade. I'm still not sure why he didn't.
 
608Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 21:42 		Slizz isn't over the allowable limits for prospects -- at the moment.

The presumption is that a manager knows what he is doing. I said above that the question is whether Slizz would want the trade to go through even if the 3-prospect rule is not changed. I haven't seen him answer this.

If Slizz feels he made the trade under a misunderstanding he should ask Ref if he will reverse it -- trade everybody back where they started. If Ref is not agreeable to this and Slizz feels that he was induced to trade by a misrepresentation --speaking hypothetically, I'm just trying to look at all the possibilities -- I am not sure what the exact procedure would be.
 
609Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 06:55 		BH - 2 of those 3 managers voted to change the rule to this and now they want protection from the rule they voted for. If they had not voted this way, the entire rule would not have changed at all, just tweaked.

Instead, we have a major rules change when 9 managers voted against it. They had every opportunity to have them protected by rule had they not voted to change it. Now, a rule is made after the fact to protect those squads only, cut me out of the process when it should be as simple as just making it as of 2013 ASB. How convenient...

As far as the trade, I think my line has been drawn in the sand.
 
610Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 09:27 		We worked through the rule change quickly. The extra prospects were an unintended consequence, and it really wasn't fair to those managers, so we worked to amend the rule.

You can't then try to take advantage of the amendment in a new way; it didn't affect you previously.

That said, this is just four months we're debating here. I don't think it should matter much to managers affected in either direction.
 
611beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 12:53 		slizz, there was a vote being discussed right before your trade went down. It was pretty evident that people only wanted to grant exemptions to those 3 teams. Even mjd who was slightly against it at first kinda came around to it as long as no other teams were granted the exemption.

I'm still baffled how Ref made this trade and wasn't at least slightly concerned with you being able to keep all 5 prospects. On 7/20 he says

"534: Thats just it. Floodgates opened. Not fair to not allow others to be in the same situation, yet I can already think of so many ways to game the system."

Then the trade gets approved on 7/25. Obviously we had not voted on an exemption just yet so there's no reason to believe it was 100% going to be granted AND it would allow other teams that didn't acquire the picks/prospect before the initial rule to be included.

I still think the trade should be vetoed since it was approved through a misunderstanding of the rules. You thought you would be grandfathered in for whatever reason but that was clearly never seriously being discussed. You shouldn't get mad at Species, R9, or Tosh. The league approved the rule so get mad at everyone that voted yes.


 
613mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:33 		Yes, I did come around a bit, given a couple of provisions. And even though I knew this last vote would easily pass, I abstained because I think that moving the p-draft to March was a huge mistake. I fail to see how it benefits the league and basically nullifies an entire major strategy.

Before this rule change ANYONE could use their last draft pick to call up one of their prospects and only go with less than the max prospects for only a few months until that season's ASB. Almost like having an extra keeper if one of your prospects made the MLB team. It's been done by several managers including myself with Jason Heyward 2 years ago.

Having the p-draft at the ASB was convenient, as it was scheduled shortly after the rule 4 MLB draft, and at an otherwise slow time of the season which helped keep managers more engaged.

Now with the change, the only ones who can use that tactic and not wait a full year to max out their prospects are the few getting the exemption to keep more than 3 prospects until the 2013 ASB. Anyone with just 3 prospects who calls up one of them in liew of a last round pick must wait one full year to replace him unless you trade for a replacement in the interim.

The MAIN reason for the change was to close a loophole of managers hoarding prospects for the sole purpose of keeping desired prospects out of the p-draft. Option A would have accomplished this seamlessly.

Instead, option B was voted in, which opened a whole new can of worms, unintended consequences, and exceptions to the rule-temporary or not. Those with the exception are the only ones benefitting here and I knew others would see that and could hope to get in on that advantage by trading for more prospects to get grandathered into this advantage because as Ref says how can you grant an exception for just 3 out of 20.

Option B removed the strategy of drafting a prospect and hoping that he panned out so you could eventually use him as a last round pick in the s-draft. But now only those with the exemtion get the advantage of the old rule, essentially jump starting the process of rebuilding their teams, giving them an unfair advantage.

While I'm not accusing anyone of purposely doing this, it does give them an unfair advantage, IMO.

In addition, I requested that those over the prospect limit be excluded from the March, 2013 p-draft, but that apparently was overlooked or ignored. So only they get to exclusively use a strategy that was once open to all teams. PLUS, they get the option to swap out the ones they won't be using before the deadline.

That's a huge cake to get and also eat.
 
614beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:56 		MJD, I always thought that if you were lucky enough to have a guy that barely came under the prospect limits that it was a huge advantage. There was a ton of luck involved in that depending on when he was called up. The new time slot for our draft will still give teams a "10th keeper" but it will cost them 1 prospect slot. If I look at my 3rd ranked prospect throughout the years, I don't think I've had one develop into a fantasy player.

 
615Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 16:46 		For the record, these exception team's will only be allowed to participate in the March 2013 p-draft if the get down to two or fewer prospect in advance of the keeper deadline. If they do that, the exception is null and void anyway.
 
616Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 01:34 		Darn you autocorrect. An apostrophe is only plural for an acronym.
 
617Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 22:21 		trade stands. I don't want it vetoed. Call me a "terrible manager" but whats done is done. I feel I should have that exemption. The league feels only three should get that exemption.

If I declare 2 of them as part of my 9 keepers and they don't get called up, I get screwed as they'll be poached off my roster. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm confident Skaggs will be up in 2013 but the rest??? I dk.
 
618Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 17:24 		Slizz, there is apparently another rule you have misinterpreted. We never passed anything that allowed for roster poaching if a player isn't called up.
 
619blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 09:22 		Seriously, MJD? 4:30 AM? I can hardly believe that after all that, Mike Olt is making his MLB debut and he's not on my team.
 
620Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 13:33 		bh - i appreciate the sarcasm and concern! we hadn't passed a rule saying players wouldn't be grandfathered until I made a trade...so I'm just waiting for the other shoe to fall where that type of action WOULD be allowed.

--

who needs Olt when you can waste a top claim spot on Dustin Ackley!?!?!

I was hoping he'd fall to me at the last claim spot. ESPNDallas had something about him getting called up the day you dropped him.
 
621Slizz
      ID: 49611114
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 13:35 		...speaking of crappy 2nd basemen, Dan Uggla is available for draft compensation.

I haven't set the price yet as the only redeemable qualities he seems to have are:

-His OB%
-Plays 2B
-Past Performance
 
622beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 15:14 		Lol, I was wondering why bh dropped him. I forgot to put a claim in but it wouldn't have mattered anyway.
 
623blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 15:23 		In my defense, I was in Europe last week and heard about Broxton getting traded. I took a stab at a closer replacement, although we all knew it was going to be Holland.

Didn't see anything about Olt. Only that he didn't go to Philly or Florida, where we was more likely to play.
 
624Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 15:23 		I've gotten quite a few inquiries about closer availability. So far, I've resisted.

However, I'll now consider offers for Betancourt vs. a pick upgrade. I expect I'll get multiple offers, so the best offer will probably get him.

Having said that, if the offer is too lean, I am not opposed to holding him.
 
625mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 16:29 		It's all about timing.

Nothing to lose but a #2 waver priority. Olt is a potential keeper on my young rebuilding team.

Another piece to my JHey, Madbum, Brett Anderson led team of the future.
 
626Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 21:07 		Darn you mjd -- I missed that Olt was available -- figured bh would do his normal stash on his bench and try to dangle him in 2013... Good pick up.
 
627mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 22:28 		I got him with a #2 waver priority. Only one other team could have gottten him, if that makes you feel any better, Judy.
 
628Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 03:08 		I have OF or 1B available for the stretch drive for a keeper quality SP or draft pick considerations.
 
629GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 11:55 		Trade between ref and I is

Buehrle
Amarista
2013 4th round draft pick

for

Valverde
Putz
2013 5th round draft pick
 
630Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 13:10 		Wow, I need to have Ref start doing my salary negotiations.
 
631 Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 13:37 		MJD - If I was in your shoes I'd hold on to him as a keeper as I agree with your rationale. Low risk move for a long term gain.

Here are the players I'm leaning towards keeping:

2B - Ackley
3B - Frazier
SS - Gordon
OF - Maybin
SP - Niese
SP - Skaggs*
RP - Cook

*will likely renounce rights and keep him as part of my nine barring any rulings.

Rest are available for trade.

Willing to move AJ Burnett and/or Liriano for another pitcher who is less proven but offers upside...a Matt Moore-type player.

Josh Rutledge - will he continue his recent tear??? Or is this a Chris Shelton type run??? You decide.

Uggla - See post #621

Morneau - leaning towards keeping. He was awesome in July, has pedigree, and per twinsbaseball.com his swing is finally coming back to the pre injury days.

Jimenez - name your price.
 
632Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 14:20 		Was that shot at Ref's trade necessary bh?
 
633GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 14:30 		Thanks bh, just won $50 on the bet that you would be the first comment.
 
634Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 14:52 		Slizz, yes it was. I challenge anyone to come up with a rationale for this trade that comes out in Cliff's favor, or even close to it. I may be alienating myself in this league (as if that didn't already happen several years ago), but I'm sick of these trades that don't even come close to pulling perennial cellar dwellers out of the basement. At least Cliff got 50 bucks out of it- maybe that's a moral victory for him.

Of course, it's made a little sweeter by winning the league, so I'll just keep trying my best to do that.
 
635Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 17:14 		Ref can sell snow to Eskimoes, and pulls off these amazing heists with all kinds and manners of people. It's inexplicable, but awesome in its own way. Just be glad he isn't a RL salesman coming to your house and trying to peddle something to you. He ought to keep copies of the negotiations that lead to these trades and display them sometime in a Fantasy Museum.
 
636R9
      ID: 40623279
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 17:33 		No way around it, that's just a bad deal for GL IMO.
But as with before, two managers thought it would help their team so I'm fine with it.

That said, there's probably a reason Ref and I rarely get anywhere in trade talks... ;)
 
637beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 21:57 		Valverde was drafted 1.01 and pretty well delivered what was expected from him. Putz was kept and is pretty well delivering as expected.

Buehrle was drafted in the 6th round and is pretty well delivering as expected. Amarista was the Angels #19th prospect last year so unless something drastic happens, he's never going to amount to anything.

The pick swap will be roughly an 11 pick upgrade probably less since Ref is likely to move up and GL down.

Maybe I'm missing something. Gotta be missing something.

 
638Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 00:55 		I doubt Ref is looking for long term ramifications with his end of the trade.

GL traded two closers for a potential keeper pitcher and a guy who could be useful due to his position eligibility: Alexi Amarista

At the end of the day he took what he could get. Case closed.
 
639Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 01:46 		I bet you GL's 50 bucks that Buehrle isn't kept this year. In fact, it's quite likely that BOTH Valverde and Putz get kept and neither Amarista or Buehrle do. I also suspect that if Buehrle or Amarista were dropped, no one would use a waiver claim to pick them up.
 
640R9
      ID: 40623279
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 11:39 		When's the trade deadline? RL has been real busy so I'm kinda out of the loop right now...
 
641Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 23:05 		Trade:
Team Hall gets Rafael Betancourt and my 9th round pick in 2013

Roto Guru gets Mike Adams and his 4th round pick in 2013
 
642Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 23:40 		Can't argue much with that one- pretty close to Betancourt's actually value, assuming he holds on.

I'm still looking to add a closer, and can offer picks or players.
 
643Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 10:07 		I'm thinking Amarista gets kept. The deal would make no sense if he doesn't. My thought is that he's trying.to secure a young middle infield talent with the hopes that he could be a 15/15 type guy.

Given the list of potential keepers on his squad, Buerhle could be kept as well. It would be his 9th guy as his standard deviation projection is certainly lower than other guys on his squad.

Putz definitely gets dropped.

Valverde has an outside chance of getting kept depending on.how many starters Ref keeps.

Now, the deal will end up working heavily in Refs favor if he is able to flip his surplus of closers into picks during the offseason. My guess is that someone will trade him a 4th or 5th rounder for one of his closers.
 
644Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 16:15 		643:
Like maybe me who has a grand total of zero saves!!! Had wilson (traded), madson (tommy john), Farnsworth (useless)...

 
645Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 11:04 		First time all year I've had to make batting lineup decisions... it was much simpler when everyone was hurt. Good problem I suppose.
 
646blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 15:52 		Still looking to add a closer or two. Let's talk.
 
647beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 20:05 		If I have a prospect eligible player that is on my roster at the end of the season that isn't on my prospect list and I decide not to keep him, will I be able to draft him in the prospect draft?

 
648Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 01:04 		Yes
 
649Great One
      ID: 450312813
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 10:24 		Thats what is so great about the new rule. Either you need to put your money where your mouth is and waste a keeper spot on a young player you have rostered... OR you have to kick him back to the pool and everyone gets a crack at him in the subsequent prospect draft. If nobody wants him as a prospect? then feel free to draft him back.
 
650Great One
      ID: 450312813
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 10:25 		I make a joke about having roster decisions with Longoria finally returning... so of course Middlebrooks goes down to give that right back. Awesome.
 
651beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 11:10 		Ok, thanks! Wanted to double check. I think it was touched on briefly in July and I wasn't sure if we ever figured out if the rules clarified it properly.
 
652Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 21:58 		Geez bh, just when do you get all the breaking news on player changes? I read it on the web, go to get a guy only to find out that you picked the guy up! If there is a breaking news email alert you are getting, I'd love to be privy to it...I cannot monitor all the baseball news 24/7.

Latest is Thayer and Gregerson for Street.
 
653Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 22:00 		Lee loses again, gives up 3R HR...
 
654Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 22:04 		646 guess you don't need those closers now...
 
655Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 22:53 		Yes I still need closers.

I use ESPN Alerts, but I had picked up Thayer the day before since there was no good streaming option.

Toral is the best at getting guys first. Tosh too.
 
656judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Sun, Aug 12, 2012, 12:48 		and where does one sign up for these alerts?
 
657Great One
      ID: 450312813
      Sun, Aug 12, 2012, 13:17 		Judy - BH probably reads the alerts that come across his work ESPN newsfeed - picks up the guy and then sends out the alert to the public so we'll never beat him! :) Unless he hires us. Hmm...
 
658blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 09:55 		Yes, ESPN is hiring. Please go to ESPNCareers.com to see available job postings. Great One, let me know if you find something you like.

Judy, you can sign up for ESPN Alerts at espn.com/alerts. This is a free service, either through text messaging or push notifications.
 
659blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 09:56 		And I'm still looking for some closers.
 
660blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 13:28 		I was curious about waiver claims, so I did a query. Looks like we've had seven claims in 2012, three of them in the past month. They're also spread out between 6 different managers, with Nerf being the only repeater.

Straily NINE 8/4
Olt MJD 8/2
Ackley SHER 7/27
DMurphy NERF 7/3
Werth NERF 5/10
Mujica NASH 5/6
BRoberts SPEC 4/29
 
661judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 13:37 		yeah but how many people put in claims and did not win??
 
662Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 14:25 		Those aren't where alerts help, cause if they are going through a claim most of us are putting one in when there is 24 hours to wait.

Its scooping up the new closer when one goes down or when there is an injury and a new guy already in the system has value.
 
663blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 15:13 		Yeah. Check out the URL I sent above. If you either get text messages or have an iPhone or Android phone, it should be very helpful.

Waiver claims is a separate discussion. I imagine a lot of people were in on all 7 claims (you can look that up too) but I was more interested in the fact that only 7 players were added to rosters by waivers.

Here's 2011:
9/22 Saunders MJD
9/18 Venters LIPM
9/8 Miley REF
8/6 Duda GO
7/31 Carrasco GURU
7/22 Altuve NINE
7/1 Lilly SPEC
6/30 Rolen NERF
6/9 Miranda BMD
4/21 Kuo DARK
4/5 Vargas SPEC

Looks fairly similar to this year, but a little older. Not sure which of those were kept - if I were guessing, I'd say Duda, Lilly, and Saunders are the best bets.

 
664Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 15:37 		I got a feeling people try and save that waiver priority... but I always felt there weren't a ton of opportunities in this league cause most of the hot prospects are accounted for. But I guess there were a couple solid ones this year.
 
665Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 19:46 		GO is right. People try and save hoping they could strike gold...but those prospects are far and few as evidenced by the research bh has done. Best claim in the past two seasons is likely going to be Mike Olt.

Unfortunately, I drafted Duda...

Bh - I'm curious...what is the delay (if you are allowed to disclose) when people at the worldwide leader hear about the news and when it actually becomes public?

 
666judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Mon, Aug 13, 2012, 23:56 		ESPN alerts not helpful if you do not text and I do not...
 
667beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 02:01 		Only way to get true up to date information is with the ESPN phone...
 
668Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 08:47 		I remember I used to get current XFL updates on my ESPN phone.
 
669blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 09:40 		Slizz - the only real delay is trying to confirm information. As with all large news outlets, they try to avoid putting out unconfirmed rumors as news.

Judy - you should text. For a variety of reasons, and fantasy baseball is just a small one.
 
670Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 12:18 		I had to jump on Werth because he's at least keeper-quality. Murphy I might have been able to wait on but I desperately needed an adequate 2B. They both might end up being keepers. Especially if I go with my plan of keeping just one pitcher.
 
671blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 12:58 		I sent a bunch of trade offers out in the last couple days. Terms are negotiable; in most cases I wanted to just get the ball rolling. Almost all of them involved closers and some combination of picks, Chris Sale, Jose Bautista, and Ben Sheets. If you were on that list and have more to say, let's talk. If not, but feel like you might have something to say, let's talk. If you're chasing me in the standings right now, you should stand pat and not make any moves.
 
672judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 13:29 		bh - email is better for me than texting. don't assume.
 
673Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 13:29 		Nerf - any interest in Uggla???

Bh - that's what I figured...it also helps to follow the right people on twitter and check at the right times.

On second look, the claims this year turned out to be pretty good.

Werth - definite keeper...historically great ob%, 5 tool player in a great lineup when 2013 rolls around.

Ackley - All 2015 Team

Second base: Dustin Ackley (27). I've said in many spaces on our pages this season that I'm not an Ackley fan, but to be clear about the context, I'm referring only to the immediate future (which is where we direct the vast majority of our fantasy advice). Long term, Ackley has All-Star potential, though at the same time such a statement shouldn't confused with "All-Star potential at first base," which is a vastly different thing. An All-Star at second base might mean a .300 batting average, 15 home runs and 20 stolen bases, but that's still an extremely valuable asset for a player only 23 years old today. I might not even buy in fully in 2012; but come 2013, perhaps we can talk about the Ackley breakthrough.

Olt - reasons discussed in prior posts.

Straily - Minor league leader in strikeouts and pitches in Oakland...nuff said.

So to find 4/7 as guaranteed keepers is pretty good use of the the waiver system.
 
674blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 15:00 		Judy, do you have a smartphone? Is that why email is better? If you do, you can get alerts on that platform as well.
 
675beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 16:34 		Werth is werthless. He was my last keeper this year(would've traded him for the smallest of upgrades but received zero offers) and he's done nothing this year to show me he's a keeper. His stats are inflated from his Philly years since he played on the best offense in the league and he was in his prime.
 
676Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 16:53 		bmd bringing that heat!!! I think Werth is better than what he showed last season and will benefit from some protection in that lineup:

-Harper will only get better
-Zimmerman is an allstar
-Anthony Rendon is one of the best bats in the minors and could make that roster.
-The owner has the deepest pockets in the MLB, so free agency is always a factor as players will actually want to play there with the talent they have.

Guys who play everyday and get on base at a near .400 clip are a luxury in this league. Plus, he has 20 hr power.
 
677blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 17:02 		It's spelled "worthless" you guys.
 
679Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 17:12 		Bh - as a devout phillies fan and knowledgable fantasy baseball aficionado...what are your thoughts on Werth?
 
680blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 17:33 		G20 is deep, and he's certainly going to help teams. And OBP is important in this league. Problem is, Werth isn't REALLY an OBP guy; he's over .400 now, but the last four years haven't been there. He's useful at 36 homers, but I can't see him ever reaching that again.

He's two years older than Jose Bautista. Personally, I'm glad the Phils didn't sign him to a long-term deal.
 
681Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 18:57 		Thank you. Some takeaway points:

-is bautista really younger? He is Dominican afterall...muahaha
-at this point in his career, he gives whoever has him a solid fallback keeper option. While he might not hit 30 hr, he is still good at getting on base and has 20 hr power.

I agree it was wise for the Phillies brass not to pay him...
 
682Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 19:43 		I think Werthless is exactly what BMD meant.
 
683beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Aug 14, 2012, 22:32 		Well have to agree to disagree on Werth(less).
 
684blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 12:49 		Great One, you officially have the fastest gun in the west...
 
685Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 12:56 		Thats what the wife tells me!
 
686Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 12:59 		Here's something that had a zero percent chance of being said at the start of this season ...

"I call up Manny Machado for the first time"
 
687Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 14:37 		Bh I have the iPhone...and iPad which I use at home...
 
688Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 14:40 		Werthless is the correct spelling...
 
689Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 14:41 		^^^

Like.
 
690blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 14:45 		Judy, you can get ESPN Alerts through your ScoreCenter on your iphone.
 
691Species
      ID: 124591311
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 18:07 		I knew it was a matter of time before Felix threw a no-hitter.......but wow a perfect game? Amazing. 12 k's too.
 
692Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 18:15 		Yesterday, I really felt that I should take a sick-day at work, and attend the matinee Felix game today.

Now I know why ...
 
693blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 18:17 		Congrats Tosh! That's awesome.
 
694Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 18:21 		Best sick day ever!

I had tickets to Philip Humber's perfect game vs. the Ms in April, but gave them away that morning.
 
695Species
      ID: 124591311
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 18:45 		Wow Tosh!!! Seeing history like that in person.....priceless! Nice!

Closest I came was seeing David Cone throw 6 no-hit innings in his first outing back in 1996 after his aneurysm. Even the A's fans appreciated the meaning of what they saw.
 
696Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Wed, Aug 15, 2012, 19:22 		One man's trash is another man's treasure. You have to understand that my best player going into this season was Andre Ethier. Talk about a guy doing nothing to make him a keeper. Willingham is certainly my best player right now but it's probably his career year. If I keep Willingham, Hart, Revere (for steals), and Werth I'm getting a pretty good mix of power, speed, and OBP. He'll also score runs hitting at the top of the order, which is something I've sorely lacked this year. All my hitters seem to be 5-hole guys.
 
697blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Aug 16, 2012, 09:58 		I've probably told this story a lot, but I was at Cone's perfect game AND at Eric Bruntlett's unassisted triple play. Also Jeter's 3000th hit, but that's not as significant, if you ask me. Right place, right time.

Nerf brings up an interesting point - the way we value these players is what makes fantasy interesting. I spent a lot of time in the Spring avoiding Willingham, but I would have been better off (for 2012, at least) with him than Hosmer. Same with Ryan Vogelsong and Trevor Cahill - I was sure I had the right guy. Just last week, I had a discussion with someone in this league, and we found that we valued one player in particular at pretty much polar opposites.
 
698Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Thu, Aug 16, 2012, 11:20 		I didn't realize how dominant Felix was the last 4 innings until I watched the replay on TV. He struck out 8 of the last 12 batters. Nothing close to being hit hard. The fastball got faster.

** Felix threw 16 curveballs that the Rays swung at, they missed on 10.
**Felix threw 15 change ups that the Rays swung at, they missed on 9.
**Felix threw 6 sliders that the Rays swung at, they missed on 5.

Previous to this, the likely most famous moment I had attended was Rafael Palmeiro's 500th Home Run.
 
699Nerfherders
      ID: 71146612
      Thu, Aug 16, 2012, 18:12 		I saw Tulo's unassisted triple play in 2007. Funny thing about those plays, is they are completely unremarkable plays as they happen. Catch, tag, throw on a ball right at 'em. It's not til theyre walking off the field that realize what had happened.
 
700blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Aug 17, 2012, 10:59 		We're really getting down to crunch time here, and it looks like Toral is making his annual charge. And Jaydog's trades appear to be paying off.

Quick survey: Given your current standing, what would you be happy with this season? What's the range of standings spots you are expecting to finish at this season?
 
701Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Fri, Aug 17, 2012, 11:54 		I'd be satisfied with 6th and happy with 3rd. We're a rebuilding team and not ready to contend yet. I expect to finish somewhere between 2nd and 5th.
 
702Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Fri, Aug 17, 2012, 18:52 		I expected to finish somewhere in the middle given my keepers...let's just say that didn't happen. Losing keepers Soria, Luebke, and Gardner without getting anything out of them pretty much sunk my ship. While I was hot the first month, my team went into a season long funk and never recovered. So this season was a disappointment.
 
703Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Fri, Aug 17, 2012, 20:21 		For me, I'd like to get 15th but okay where I am at. It is a marginal improvement from last season. I have zero pitching, but my offense is promising.
 
704beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Aug 18, 2012, 01:11 		Toral, your team isn't rebuilding. It's loaded and I'd do everything I could to compete this year.

I'm going to keep putting my best lineup out there but I hope my team finishes dead last. I don't think I've ever had a top 10 pick in baseball so it would be nice to run good and win the lottery this year.
 
705R9
      ID: 40623279
      Sat, Aug 18, 2012, 15:59 		Trade:

I send Addison Reed and my 2014 10th round pick to Hen for some bum on his bench and his 2014 3rd round pick.

 
706R9
      ID: 40623279
      Sat, Aug 18, 2012, 16:01 		I definitely could've made a run this year if I had some draft picks, but I really couldn't have known how good Trout and Trumbo would be. I'd be happy to stay in the top 10, and am really looking forward to next year. I've got a ton of picks and a lot of promising youth. The rebuild is almost done!
 
707Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Aug 18, 2012, 16:38 		Trade confirmed.

Honestly, R9's team is one I fear, with both his keeper talent and his picks. Outside of the next 42 days, he wins this trade.
 
708Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sat, Aug 18, 2012, 19:52 		Also, happy to have added Reed. Jaydog is only 2.5 behind right now- need all the points I can get.
 
709R9
      ID: 40623279
      Sun, Aug 19, 2012, 21:31 		Hen was pretty persistent to get this deal done, so hats off to him for that.

If either Kimbrel or Jansen goes under the knife next year (and my luck says they probably will!) I'll regret not taking the bigger deal hen gave me, but for now I think I made the right move...

Best of luck to everyone at the top down the stretch.
 
710Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 23:26 		Is anyone else disappointed in the level of chatter in this league this year?
 
711beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Aug 21, 2012, 00:19 		bh, so how exactly did you get Braun off the hook for his 50 game suspension?
 
712blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Aug 21, 2012, 09:43 		I told him about last year's finish in G20, and he said: "Man, we can't let that happen again. Let me see what I can do."
 
713Species
      ID: 124591311
      Tue, Aug 21, 2012, 19:18 		Hen really lucked out on the Braun situation as well as Bautista sneaking in 3b eligibility this year. Things would have been sooooo different if one or both of those situations were different.

On league chatter......bluntly (speaking strictly as a player, NOT as a Commissioner) I'm disappointed with the lack of participation by more than a few teams. Perhaps those teams are feverishly working behind the scenes.....if so, they never came to me.....but there are more than a couple of teams whose activity could be counted on one or two hands.

So glad I didn't further mortgage the future to try to contend. Simply too many injuries to key guys for me to have competed for the title. I like my trade of AGonz....and am happy to see him tearing it up here in the 2nd half to restore some of his luster.
 
714beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Aug 21, 2012, 22:01 		Was really surprised to see Strop laying around out there. Not only could he help teams fighting at the top but he's got the potential to be closing next spring.

Dexter Fowler finally proving he's going to be a stud for years to come. Of course, there's a certain manager that thinks he's not a keeper.
 
715Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Tue, Aug 21, 2012, 23:05 		700 posts seems active to me! lol... although i do feel I have been unable to get trades done this year for whatever reason. Nobody even sending an offer for any of the productive hitters like Morse and Rios I had on the block was baffling... and I wasn't even looking for keeper pitching... just some innings eaters.
 
716blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Aug 22, 2012, 09:57 		Strop's been on my team for most of the year. I dropped him because I have several others just like him (Benoit, Gregerson, Myers, Pestano), who are clear cut #2's. I felt Jim Johnson was more stable that Chris Perez, Valverde, Thayer, or Reed, plus Strop didn't have great strikeout numbers, so he was the choice to go. I agree, he's a good get for you.

Saves have been so frustrating this year - last year I kept no closers, had three closers in May who lost the job in July, and STILL set the league record for saves. This year, nothing seems to work out - keeping Walden, who was terrible. Picking up Downs and holding Walden, only to see Frieri get all the saves. Trading for Heath Bell, who lost his job AND struggled in the other categories. Drafting Cashner, who was beaten out by a guy I never heard of. Picking up Francisco Cordero, who might be the worst of all. Even Brett Myers, who was fantastic until he got traded.

Meanwhile, teams are floating by with Fernando Rodney, Alfredo Aceves, Tom Wilhelmsen, and Casey Janssen. They say never to pay for saves, but you've got to pick the right guys. Kudos to Jaydog for making trades to net the three hottest closers right now.
 
717blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Aug 22, 2012, 10:07 		As for 700 posts, let's look closer. Jaydog, who has probably the most exciting story to tell right now, has three posts in the thread: promoting Parker, renouncing Parker, and voting on one of the referendums.

Allhair has three posts as well - two in April (one dealing with a prospect), plus one referendum vote.

Pete does have 8 posts, but it's been very quiet recently (other than one comment about a trade).

Even Slizz, who has quite a few posts, only has a couple that talk about his team's performance. Most of them are defending his trade or debating the prospect rules.

I wouldn't call that active under any definition.
 
718blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Aug 23, 2012, 17:17 		R9, please take Bartolo Colon out of your lineup.
 
719blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Aug 23, 2012, 17:17 		Also Species with Marquis.
 
720Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 00:39 		The Aceves deal includes my 6th and Tosh's 13th. Hopefully his run quota was met tonight.
 
721Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 01:04 		confirmed.

I've traded 4 closers now. I'm not trading the last guy I have ... gotta' have a Mariner on my team.
 
722Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Aug 26, 2012, 10:58 		Folks, at this point, I am definitely looking to trade Jose Bautista for something that will help me win now. Get those offers coming.
 
723Pete N.
      ID: 567212119
      Sun, Aug 26, 2012, 20:35 		Trade with bh includes his 7th round pick for my 13th round. BH to confirm.
 
724Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Aug 26, 2012, 20:54 		Confirmed. Looking to deal Bautista for a closer and a keeper third baseman. Or I'll just keep him.
 
725blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 11:13 		Commishes, feel free to copy/paste:

These managers have had their 2013 Supplemental Draft selections altered via trade:
3-17-12 R9 receives Species' 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders for his 12th, 13th and 14th (2012 picks, prospect pick)
3-18-12 R9 receives Great One's 1st and 4th rounders for his 10th and 11th.
6-03-12 blue hen receives Pete's 1st rounder for his 10th (Reddick)
7-2-12 blue hen receives R9's 4th rounder for his 11th (prospect picks)
8-4-12 Goatlocker receives Ref's 4th rounder for his 5th (Valverde/Putz)
8-5-12 Guru receives Jaydog's 4th rounder for his 9th (Betancourt)
8-24-12 Tosh receives blue hen's 6th rounder for his 13th (Aceves)
8-26-12 Pete receives blue hen's 7th rounder for his 13th (Balfour)


These managers have had their 2014 Supplemental Draft selections altered via trade:
8-18-12 R9 receives blue hen's 3rd rounder for his 10th (Reed)
 
726Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Mon, Aug 27, 2012, 18:36 		Thanks Chris Carpenter for giving away my 1st and 4th next year.
 
727R9
      ID: 40623279
      Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 22:04 		Yeah, thanks Chris Carpenter. ;)
 
728blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Aug 29, 2012, 10:10 		You've definitely gotten more out of him than I've gotten out of Aceves.
 
729beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Wed, Aug 29, 2012, 20:47 		Ahh, now I see why Species bailed on this year. Had no picks to trade :)
 
730Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Aug 30, 2012, 11:29 		:)
 
731blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Aug 30, 2012, 11:35 		Makes me smile as well. Flags fly forever.
 
732beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 21:26 		Hmm, a lot of prospects aren't listed in ESPN's database. There are a few guys I might take a flier on but can't pick them up since they aren't listed. Am I just SOL? What about if one of the guys are called up(probably unlikely but you never know)?
 
733Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 00:03 		You rang, bh???

What can I say about my team other than the old Bill Parcells adage: you are what your record shows you are...

You're also forgetting about my posts on trading Uggla!!!! To echo GO...no bites either!!!!

And while were on the prospect rules, hook a brother up!!! Thats all im asking for....

That said, I had things going on outside of this league. Now that I'm adjusted to my new career, I should be active going forward minus fantasy football draft time.
 
734mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 15:44 		I've had several trade offers not only seeking my core guys, but Chris Medlen as a "throw in". Been a big fan of this guy, and now that he's finally in the Brave's rotation, he's been lights out. Just gave up his first run in over 34 innings-unearned at that. On his way to 6-0 since getting back into the rotation. Only walked 5 since then.

Coming off TJ surgery, the Braves were able to manage his IP by keeping in the pen most of the year.

For the first time since I started my rebuild I'm happy with my potential keepers.
 
735Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 20:15 		He was lights out today. I had him going in one league and was excited until I checked and I've got a bye this week in that league (first week of the playoffs!). Hopefully he keeps it up.
 
736Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 21:41 		If you ever get a chance to go to a baseball game with Species, do it. Today was awesome, even at the Daniel Cabrera of stadiums. We never came to terms on a Profar for Bautista deal, but we sure had fun talking about it.

Who's next? Anyone want to see a ballgame?
 
737blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Sep 04, 2012, 17:09 		Slizz, you really jinxed Uggla with that post...
 
738Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 08:06 		;)
 
739Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 22:53 		Man, it's no fun kicking the snot out of Jaydog and the rest of you if no one posts here. At least a couple of you have actually passed Species.
 
740Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:37 		"Man, it's no fun kicking the snot out of Jaydog and the rest of you if no one posts here."

I think people have figured that out -- which is why no one posts here.
 
741Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 18:56 		Bh and Toral - I think 700 plus posts is good...but i expect a decline in board activity now that we will have everything done before the season starts.

At least during supplemental draft time it served as a reason to check the board...

Once football season starts, I lose interest in baseball. I'll check my lineups in the am and if espn mobile doesnt have the person starting he stays on my bench.

(btw you need to get on whoever does the updates for starting pitchers as I've missed multiple starts bc their name doesn't have "pp" next to it. Granted I am setting it at 330/4am before I head to work or 630/7am when I get home, but still...)
 
742Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Sun, Sep 09, 2012, 02:25 		Slizz, I can't recall a single time where I had the problem you're referring to, ever. Even today, it listed Archer as early as 8 AM ET.

Just saying that it makes the league a little boring when nobody posts. Isn't that why we're in this league instead of one with autonomous drones?

RIBC does a great thing with draft rationales. I think I'd even be ok with a league that requires regular commentary. Obviously not this one, but you get the point.
 
743Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Sun, Sep 09, 2012, 18:54 		I can't say much for my roto leagues this year, but my 30 team points league is doing really well. I made the ALCS this week after squeaking into the playoffs with an 11-9 record.

In this league it's a close race for the 17th spot. I keep flipping between 17-19 by losing/gaining mere points. I hop to finish better than my 19th last year just to prove that I am at least slightly more competitive than my predecessor. Even if I finish 19th again, this team is far and away better than last year's. I actually have decisions on keepers this offseason, especially at OF. The pitching stinks and it's what did me in this year. I basically just tried to go with volume and get wins and K's with a generous IP limit.
 
744beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 22:45 		I'm guessing we are past the trade deadline? There's no date on the ESPN page and can't find it discussed anywhere.
 
745Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 15:44 		According the League/Settings there is no trade deadline... which is awesome! but I assume is just an oversight. It's usually Sept. 1st.
 
746allhair allstars
      ID: 548481319
      Thu, Sep 13, 2012, 20:49 		Nerf,

My team doing its best to give you your wish. Another lost season despite, like yours, an improved team. Hey... competition to stay out of 19th (or 17th or wherever the bouncing ball puts me today) is still competition, right? ;)
 
747Jaydog
      ID: 45633109
      Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 12:20 		Wow... lots of chatter that I've been missing out on all year! Here's to a fun last few weeks!

Might want to hold off on that "snot kicking" untill we see how the chips fall :)

 
748mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Fri, Sep 14, 2012, 21:59 		Kris Medlin twirled another gem tonight. 13K's, 8 looking. Most by any P this year.

Looks like he's forcing himself into keeper consideration.

 
749Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 21:13 		Crud -- thought I had my SP lined up, but lee is on the bench with 10 K's so far...
 
750Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Mon, Sep 17, 2012, 23:47 		I had assumed that was on purpose...
 
751Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 00:00 		Nice comment bh, polite as usual...

I do have a life outside of fantasy...I was away this weekend...
 
752blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 09:47 		I wasn't implying that you didn't have time for fantasy. I was implying that it seemed like you benched him because you don't think he's that good.
 
753Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 10:53 		Cmon blue hen...everyone knows Lee doesn't stink.

My mom, who barely follows sports, knows of Cliff Lee.
 
754Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 10:59 		BH was being sarcastic cause of this RIBC league (last 40 posts) where Judy moved Lee cause she thought he was done as a top pitcher.

That said, I'm thinking Judy is glad she jinxed Lee into remembering how to pitch cause it got her Phillies back into wild card contention.
 
755Slizz
      ID: 396121611
      Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 11:17 		Haha...I stand corrected.

I was doing add drops on the droid and meant to drop hammel instead of blanton...any way we can reverse that?

I know you are all salivating at the chance to get Blanton...lol
 
756judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 17:33 		I have a gazillion IP left, so I am starting any and everyone!!!

Like 5 on Saturday!!
 
757Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 11:13 		Wow, I've held my ground point-wise and everyone I was fighting with for the 15-19 spots have gained like 10 points in the past 10 days. Eh?
 
758Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 09:52 		Bluehen: Tyler Thornburg is R9's prospect.

Ref; Jacob Turner is Nerfherder's prospect.
 
759Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:11 		Still two ineligible players in lineups, although Jacob Turner is now on Jaydog's team after being dropped by Ref. If these 2 pitchers start, it'll be a mess to sort out the standings.
 
760blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:34 		Thanks Toral - I dropped Thornburg.
 
761blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 14:35 		Also, kudos to Jaydog on making a move. If he drops Turner, does that count as a negative move (bringing him down to 7), or is it two total moves (bringing him to 9)?
 
762beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 22:09 		Doesn't look like he got dropped. In other news, we need to drop our IP limit.
 
763Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 22:19 		So we had a team start a prospect that wasn't theirs? Thats awesome.

IP #? I feel like I've been trying to start and stream pitchers since the ASB and I came nowhere near the limit.
 
764Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 22:45 		Actually I'd been thinking of a drop to 1350 too. Some years ago I think we thot we'd drop it a notch then, and do it again another year if it seemed wise.
 
765Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 22:48 		Hoping against hope for 14th place...
 
766Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 23:30 		I have been unable to find a way to retroactively remove Turner from Jaydog's roster. It appears he's stuck with the stats.
 
767blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 10:29 		Looking closer, I don't think Jaydog's blunder affects the standings in any way, or even his innings cap total. Given that, I'm inclined to just let it slide, other than reserving the right to make fun of him.
 
768Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 11:25 		Without those 4 strikeouts wouldn't he be behind Nerfherder in strikeouts leaving you and he tied?
 
769blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 11:40 		Oh, I missed that - I had been looking at ERA and WHIP.
 
770blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 11:41 		REMINDER: According to our rules and traditions, the roster you have at 2:20 PM today (last freeze of the season) is the roster eligible for keeper purposes. Make those last moves wisely...
 
771blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 11:44 		Idiot again. Looks like 12:35, not 2:20.
 
772darkside
      ID: 44429820
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 11:50 		I haven't been collecting any pitching stats for several days now, so it's not out of the question that 1400 is a reasonable limit. I see no reason to increase it, but wouldn't necessarily be opposed either.

Good work getting to the top, Toral. Good luck to all three of you tonight (except blue hen, no one who makes 270+ moves should win...you're like the Yankees of fantasy sports)
 
773Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 11:52 		He had to rotate 200 pitchers just to get close to our IP limit!
 
774Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 16:59 		That's not a cool move.

1. Because Jacob Turner is my prospect.

2. Because I'm fighting like hell to not be in 19th place and I need every point I can muster.
 
775Bh
      ID: 426111516
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 21:10 		Looks like this one is winding down. Congrats Toral!
 
776mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 23:28 		Well done, Toral.
 
777Nerfherders
      ID: 310111515
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 23:52 		Woohoo! Broke through on the last day and moved up 3 spots. A small victory is still a victory.
 
778Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 00:44 		Congratulations, Toral! What a second half run!

Not bad for a team that was rebuilding.
 
779Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 08:16 		'Grats Toral -- a new king of the hill!!

 
780Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 09:42 		Congrats to Toral!

Glad I gave up all those picks next year to finish 9th this year. A great success! ugh.
 
781Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 13:06 		Thanx.

Just a few weeks ago i was coasting along blithely in third, not expecting anything much to happen for the rest of the year. Suddenly the leaders started to come back to me. This was an excruciating few weeks. I made a coupla dumb mistakes in the last ten days or so -- like not having Harrell starting on Monday -- that would have haunted me forever if I'd lost by a point on Ks or something. I almost let Bluehen sneak past me on Ks. For much of the year I was leading on Ks and it wasn't worth streaming lousy starters and risking my position in ERA and WHIP. but then my ERA lead got so big I realized I could afford to, and the WHIP position over Jaydog opened up a bit too.

Guess I can't use the "This is a rebuilding team" excuse any more. I'll need a new one.

Thanx to Jaydog and Bluehen for all the competition I could handle, and to the whole league for a good year.

It was Twarpy who shamed me onto this rebuilding road -- a long time ago now -- by telling me, accurately, that my team, a few years after it had been in contention, was lousy, directionless and going nowhere. So I'll thank him with something he much hated, a Stengel/Berra quote (Berra in this case): I'd like to thank everybody here for making this day necessary.
 
782youngroman
      ID: 56523304
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 13:26 		Congratulations Toral!

8th is not bad when you start the season without a closer and a projected shortage in stolen bases.

if Tulo, Melky and Feliz would have played for a full season I may have ended up in 4th. I don't think that much more would have been possible.

at least Billy Butler achieved to be eligible at 1B on the last day of the season. that gives me some more flexibility for next season. I have some tough decisions ahead because it seems that I have too many keeper worthy players right now.
 
783Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:10 		Congrats to Toral!

Interesting season for me, as I evolved the team from a pitching-heavy lineup, to a hitter-heavy lineup. I moved from 8th in 2011, to 6th place in 2012, with an overall increase of nine points.

Unfortunately, the ERA and WHIP tailed off as I got deeper into the season, and my ace (Weaver) didn't do enough to maintain my numbers.

I was almost able to move up a tier in SBs. It was a long haul to get from 18th to 11th in that category. Another couple days and I would have been able to finish in 5th place overall.

Who do I talk to at ESPN to make sure that Manny Machado has SS eligibility in 2013? I don't need another 3B.

Thanks to everyone, and see y'all in 2013.

 
784blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:25 		Third Place Moral Victory Speech

Well, I did finish ahead of Ref, so that's one thing to be happy about. After this performance, I guess I have to be up there with the 2007 Mets and 2011 Red Sox as teams who just couldn't finish it out. At blame's forefront are some terrible decisions streaming pitchers, including a 5.82 ERA in September and 6.92 in 80 terrible innings to end the month. I had only a two-point deficit at about 3 PM on the final day, so I am happy to have hung on until the end.

I am happy for Toral. Honestly, he manages a lot like me: we have attachments to our own players and loathe to trade them away, and we aren't afraid to make moves, at any time of day or night and up until the last moments of the season. For Toral, "his guys" paid off in the form of big seasons for Andrew McCutcheon and Clayton Kershaw. Many of his other stalwarts were great, and quick hands on waivers (Perkins, Garret Jones) also worked well. Of course, that's what happens when you win. Toral finished with 127 transactions on the season, 50 more than anyone not named Blue Hen.

Maybe it's in poor form, but I'm glad Jaydog didn't win. He made fewer moves than anyone else in the league, including teams that were out of it in late April. He had the perfect confluence of keepers, career years, and two fortuitous trades that netted 47 saves for minimal investment. With even a small amount of moves this year, he would have crushed Toral. Maybe it's just me, but it didn't seem like Jaydog cared about being in this league. And that's a shame - not just for him, but for the league.

Congrats are also in order for darkside, Ref, and Tosh, three of the finer managers in this league; good to see you guys finish well. Also congrats to Pete; I have your first pick so I was hoping you'd fall further, but you didn't. Also, good work by Species getting all the way down to tied for 16th after throwing in the towel. You'll be back soon, I'm sure.

From the league perspective, I am glad we are dealing with some of our recent problems. I am extremely excited for the next prospect draft, and I would support an innings cap down to 1200. Great job by the "powers that be" for getting consensus and making real changes to the league we love.

For the future, I am definitely looking forward to dethroning Toral. My core is still young and awesome, and I've got Halladay, Rizzo, and Altuve fighting for my last keeper spot. I am also very happy that I managed to push for this year (trading for Bell, Aceves, Reed, and Balfour, ugh) without sacrificing TOO much of the future. With acknowledgements to Great One and R9, I am installing myself as the prohibitive favorite in 2013, gunning for my 4th straight Top 3 finish.

On a more serious note, I want to say that I love being in G20. This league consumes my life more than any other, and has brought me much joy (and occasional consternation). I want to thank each of you for making this league what it is, and I look forward to beating you again and again for years to come. Good luck to all in the offseason and next year, and Matt Kemp is officially on the block!

 
785Jaydog
      ID: 45633109
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 16:49 		Blue Hen -

I respect your opinion, but feel the need to defend myself. The amount of moves that a team makes is in no way representative of someones passion about the league. After the midway point of the year, I was 100+ IP over pace, and needed to back off my starts. I rotated pitchers in and out based on matchup, and with Cueto and Cain leading the charge I had no need to make any upgrades on my pitching staff. Even Volquez, as my worst starter, was fairly consistent throughout the year. No one on the waiver wire would have ever provided any upgrade to my staff, and never had the need to pick up any scrubs to fill out IP's.

I was also very fortunate the health of my lineup. Votto and Bonifacio were my only players significantly affected by injury. I'd challenge anyone to find anyone on the waiver wire that would have provided any upgrade over any of my players.

While not making many moves, I was very committed to the league, checking in every day, making two moves that almost put me over the top, and was a bad start here or there away from winning the whole thing.

I love this league, and will continue to be an active participant, even if I don't make 4-5 moves per day.
 
786blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 17:28 		Thanks Jaydog. I am glad you responded, and congrats on the high finish. This is telling:

Stats for players with 10 or fewer games played in an active roster slot:
Runs: Jaydog 1, Blue Hen 42
RBIs: Jaydog 0, Blue Hen 31

That gives you 8 more points in RBIs, and 4 more points in runs. 12 more points means you win G20 by 7 points, all because you picked up an extra player once in a while. You had the 16th most offensive games played, right between Allhair (18th overall) and Species (16th).


 
787Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 17:45 		To make your point, BH, you need to compare this with the players they would have been supplanting.

Oh, dear, what a rivalry! I'll just have to sit back and watch next year. After all, I'm really just a rebuilding team.

BTW, BH: your bosses's approach to notifying players that games played on the day after the regular season (to break a divisional winner tie) is crap. I scoured the ESPN rules; they do not specify. As far as one can infer from them, the season is over after 162 games. A notice was put up very late on the day before; that notice ought to go up at least 5 games before (pitching rotations).

I suppose it's easy for people there to find out. What a shame that there is no way for us to let people there know of this.
 
788blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 17:49 		I hear you, Toral. Historically, tiebreakers have always worked this way:
- Roto leagues, all tiebreaker stats count
- H2H leagues, no tiebreaker stats count

You can bank on that every year, but I agree; they should post it sooner.
 
789Jaydog
      ID: 4293421
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 22:03 		Also, 20-30 games of waiver wire offense surely would have hit my league leading OBP.
 
790allhair allstars
      ID: 4611820
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 23:22 		Congrats to Toral... well deserved.

Sucks to have dropped 5 points and three places in the standings on the last day, but I should have remembered how volatile this league can be on the last day. Should never have been in that position in the first place.
 
791judy
      Dude
      ID: 7771722
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 13:55 		Ah, blue hen

Alas you did not defend... I am glad jaydog responded to your criticism of his low number of moves. Managers employ various strategies for success and if their lineups are healthy, there will be fewer moves.

I, on the other hand, would like to see the total number of movies limited. For a manager to be able to make 288 moves, more than double the next closest team (161) and all but 4 times as much as the next guy is INSANE! bh made 30% of all moves.

The winner Toral had 127 and #2 Jaydog had but 8. From place 4 to 20, the average number of moves was 32.

I cannot believe you seriously wrote this: This league consumes my life more than any other, and has brought me much joy (and occasional consternation).

You have a huge advantage over the rest of us being able to hear news sooner than we do. I would read news on the web and go to see if I could take advantage of it, but no, beaten to the punch.

This league does not "consume my life". I usually check in at least once and often several times a day. I do NOT like the same day drop/add loophole -- yes I consider it a loophole. I do not have the time to check the stats and predictions of every player (mostly pitchers) who are scheduled for each and every day to see what the match ups are. I am often not home during game starts for last minute changes.

I do have a life outside of fantasy baseball. I do my best given that I am NOT glued to a computer with alerts and other information that I might use if I knew about it. I do the best I can with my men and if I get lucky enough (2011) I can do well.

I would like to propose a limit to the number of moves a team can make over the course of a season. While 162, the number of games/team, might be too low, how about whatever the number of days it is that the season lasts from first game to last (I think it was 190 for 2012)?

I think this would level the playing field among all the managers.
 
792Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 14:08 		I think pulling down the IP limit would help do. I bet the majority of BH's moves were rotating in pitchers to try and get to the limit. I felt like I was rotating pitchers nonstop after the ASB and still came up 150 IP short.
 
793Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 14:16 		As long as people are thinking along these lines, i have a radical idea that would nullify the advantages of more-time-per-day-at-the-computer and early-information completely. Please note that I am not recommending it, just wondering if other people would consider it fairer:

-- eliminate immediate free-agent pickups completely; replace them with waiver requests to be in effect for the next day, under a rolling waiver priority.

E.g.; Joe Blow is suddenly anointed closer. No one owns him. He cannot be picked up by anyone immediately. Anyone who wants may make a waiver claim for him, and the highest priority will get him, added to the roster tomorrow. The person winning the player goes to the bottom of the list.

I'm fine with the current system; just curious to see if other people would prefer this.
 
794blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 14:41 		Judy, I disagree on your points, and also on the spirit of your comments. I have very little interest in leveling the playing field. I joined G20 because it was a deep, serious league with serious players. That has definitely changed in the last few years, and if it changes more... well, I don't really want to finish that sentence.
 
795Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 20:35 		First thing first. Congratulations to Toral on the big win. I know I break your Canadian stones in g24 but I won't doubt you here...lol.

BH - tough loss but your squad is poised to be a contender next year and beyond.

Toral - you're on to something...but it should only go to waivers after the person has played a game...I don't think that should have any impact because of vultures like myself. I try and get those setup guys or potential closers before they're installed as the closer because its cheaper than trading and they don't hurt your bottom line.

My season was a bust. Losing 1/3rd of my keepers was too much to overcome...but with a young nucleus and good farm system I should be able to contend in two seasons...maybe next year with a stellar draft.
 
796R9
      ID: 99272420
      Mon, Oct 08, 2012, 19:34 		Congrats Toral! Definitely nice to see a 2nd half surge winner. The last few years has seen the obvious contender win (nothing wrong with that either) and its nice to see something different.

I kinda like Toral's proposal. Id be against a moves cap; Jaydog's team didnt need alot of moves, Hen's did. Why are we handicapping one and not the other? Hen's team was hurt more then helped with all his streaming down the stretch. Its not like he proved his strategy was a sure-fire winner. ;) For the second year in a row, he probably cost himself the title with overmanagement. :p

Im really looking forward to 2013. A few of my youngin's struggled really badly down the stretch, giving me some things to think about keeper-wise. Might look into parlaying some of my large amount of picks into some keeper upgrades.
 
797blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 16:46 		Since someone BUTTed it, here's a list of players taken in the 2010 prospect draft prior to Hosmer, in order:

Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, Ben Revere, Martin Perez, Wil Myers, Manny Machado, Zack Cox, Michael Choice, Julio Teheran, Christian Colon, Grant Green, Austin Wilson, Simon Castro, Jerry Sands, Scott Sizemore, Tanner Scheppers, Mike Minor, Aaron Hicks.
 
798Slizz
      ID: 151136106
      Fri, Oct 26, 2012, 11:53 		I think I was a little early on Austin Wilson...haha
 
799Nerfherders
      ID: 161121811
      Mon, Oct 29, 2012, 13:48 		I can't take credit for drafting him, but Revere could arguably be the most valuable player on that list after the first two picks, including Hosmer. He steals bases, and that is a pretty valuable commodity in a 20-teamer.

That being said, there's a few guys that haven't had their chance yet and will most likely be better than Revere, since he is kind of a one-trick pony.
 
800Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Oct 29, 2012, 23:25 		I drafted Hicks.

I remember Hosmer having a really awful year and having his prospect status dimmed. Considering his 2012 season, perhaps that was for the best.
 
801Great One
      ID: 512531316
      Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 09:55 		Wonder why I didn't have a pick.
 
802Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Oct 30, 2012, 12:17 		Thanks, Nerf. I remember drafting him exactly because he was fast and seemed to have some pop in the bat. You can't teach speed!
 
803Species
      ID: 91141520
      Sat, Dec 15, 2012, 21:04 		Interesting offseason to date.....first Wil Myers gets traded to TB (I'm mixed on the impact plus or minus for him) and now d'Arnaud possibly to the Mets in a Dickey deal.

I'm leaning neutral move for Myers and negative long term for d'Arnaud.....d'Arnaud gets more immediate playing time but goes from a plus HR park to a big negative :(

I'm wondering if Profar staying in Texas....but as a 2b.....is a plus or minus. Probably minus....but there's just as much dearth at 2b than SS....and I have Desmond and Lindor too. Hmmmm.
 
804GO
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Dec 20, 2012, 14:57 		I'm looking to trade for a 2B or SS.
 
805blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 12:27 		Wanted to open discussion: I propose changing the innings limit to 1200 for 2013. This goes against our standard of waiting a year for rule changes, but I think it is warranted.

Would like a quick straw poll for the following:
A. Change to 1200 for 2013
B. Change to 1200 for 2014
C. No change
 
806GO
      ID: 811442813
      Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 13:19 		It definitely needs to go lower, I think most will agree.. is it 1400 now? I would think 1200 would be too drastic right away. Why is the 1200 the target? Is that fairly standard for other leagues? I think we have extra pitching spots so it might need to be a bit higher than default.
 
807mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 14:16 		Why not drop it to 1300 this year and reevaluate for 2014.
 
808GO
      ID: 811442813
      Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 14:33 		I think we could definitely go to 1300 immediately and I can't imagine we'd encounter much resistance.
 
809Toral
      ID: 424462011
      Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 14:37 		I stick with my approach since we started dropping the limit of reducing it (if we reduce it) by 50 a year until there's a feeling we've had enuf.

If you look at the discussion somewhere above there are some people happy with the limit as is.
 
810Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 19:32 		Why does it need to go lower?

Weighing the benefits of streaming starters for W and K at the risk of ERA and WHIP is a key element of management in the league.

Nine teams exceeded 1300 IP last year. Three teams basically hit 1400 IP.

Being a smartass just for the sport of it (and to give him a little of his own medicine), the author of this informal poll is plotting in his own self-interests because he lost the 2012 title out of his steadfast stubbornness - despite my excessive recommendations - to leverage his considerable assets for desperately needed in-season starter help. Instead, he preferred to stream mediocre starters.

Not wanting to divert from his preferred strategy, he's looking to lower the innings limit in order to tilt the playing field in his direction.

My informal vote is C.
 
811BH
      ID: 1207919
      Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 20:07 		Absolutely correct. That's why we're voting. I will do my best to win with any set of rules.
 
812R9
      ID: 99272420
      Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 00:40 		I vote C. :)
 
813GO
      ID: 210411222
      Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 23:41 		If we are gonna have way too many IP maybe we should comprably have more GP for the hitters.
 
814beastiemiked
      ID: 38255111
      Mon, Jan 14, 2013, 15:54 		Drop to 1300.
 
815mjd
      ID: 29021169
      Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 15:29 		Change my vote to C.
 
816GoatLocker
      Leader
      ID: 060151121
      Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 22:14 		C
 
817Judy
      ID: 54203110
      Sun, Feb 03, 2013, 10:00 		C
 
818Slizz
      ID: 36111511
      Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 12:15 		I know its not among A B C...but drop to 1300 this season & re-evaluate next offseason
 
819Great One
      ID: 120252515
      Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 12:23 		If we are gonna leave it at 1400 we may as well not have any limit. And that's fine. But I think we should likewise remove limits for hitters. Same risks there with OBP.
 
820Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 15:22 		C