Self Editor

Forum: base
Page 20385
Subject: Gurupie 20 - 2017 Preseason Discussion

Posted by: Species - Dude [07724916] Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 13:08

Okay G20ers -- we have had a lot of action and a lot of discussion recently. I am starting a new Preseason thread and over the next couple of days I will look to summarize some of the open discussions on rule changes (demerits, S+H, Prospect Rules, etc) so we can refocus our thoughts.

First order of business: Please confirm your intention to return to G20 Baseball!

Per GO's request, posting the rules so it is at the top of the thread:

Constitution
Prospects - 300AB 110_IP/40_GP to remain a prospect.

(Draft Rounds 1-3, '04; 4-5, '05; 6-8, '06; 9-11, '07; 12-14, '08; 15-17, '09; 18-20, '10; 21-23, '11; 24-26, '12; 27-29 '13; 30-32 '14; 33-35 '15; 36-38 '16)
MGR: #, Name,Pos,Team,(# Call-ups)
Bean: Kenta Maeda, SP, LAD; 34.09 Nick Gordon, SS, MIN; 35.02 Raul Mondesi, SS, KC; 36.03 Byung-Ho Park, 1b, MIN (1)
bmd: 34.03 Matt Olson, 1b, OAK; 36.06 Andrew Benintendi, OF, BOS; 36.12 Ryan McMahon, 3b, COL; 37.07 Tyler Stephenson, C, CIN
Blue Hen: Rafael Devers, 3b, BOS; 36.16 Jose DeLeon, SP, LAD; 37.05 Bobby Bradley, 1b, CLE
Darkside: 37.11 Ozhaino Albies, SS, Atl; 38.04
Meatwads: 36.11 Franklin Barreto, SS, OAK; 37.09 Lucius Fox, SS, SFG;
Great One: 28.07 David Dahl, OF, COL; 33.01 Yoan Moncada, 2b, BOS;
Guru: 25.03 Albert Almora,OF,CHC; 37.13 Brett Phillips, OF, Mil
Jaydog: 31.08 Austin Meadows, OF, PIT; 33.19 Dilson Herrera, 2b, NYM; 36.02 Dansby Swanson, SS, ATL
Judy: 33.13 Robert Stephenson, SP, CIN (1); 37.03 Roman Quinn, OF, PHI
mjd: 24.04 Mark Appel, SP, PHI; 30.17 Lucas Gioloto, P, WAS; 36.08 Jorge Mateo, SS, NYY; 36.15 Brady Aiken, SP, CLE
Nerfherders: 30.07 Clint Frazier, OF, NYY; 36.05 Anderson Espinoza, SP SD; 37.02 Cody Bellinger, 1b, LAD
Peter N: 33.03 Hunter Harvey, SP, BAL
Tree: 32.05 Julio Urias, P, LAD; 33.05 Aaron Judge, OF, NYY 36.04 AJ Reed, 1b, HOU; 36.19 Gleyber Torres, SS, NYY; 37.15 Carson Fulmer, SP, CHW
Fosten: 36.09 Bradley Zimmer, OF, CLE; 36.07 Jose Berrios, SP, MIN; 38.01 Francis Martes, SP, HOU
Slizz:
Species: 36.10 Nick Williams, OF, PHI; 38.02 Eddy Julio Martinez, OF CHC
Khahan: 35.03 Josh Bell, OF, PIT (1); 36.18 Alex Bregman, SS, HOU (1); 37.14 Dominic Smith 1st NYM; 34.01 Greg Bird, 1b, NYY; 36.20 Sean Newcomb, SP, ATL;
Tosh: 37.12 Anthony Alford, OF, TOR
wg: 32.03 JP Crawford, SS, PHI; 36.01 Brendan Rodgers, SS, COL; 36.17 Victor Robles, OF, WAS;
youngroman: 36.13 Shohei Otani, SP, Hokkaido; 37.10 Cody Reed, SP, CIN; 38.03 Aaron Altherr, OF, PHI

The following managers have had their 2017 Prospect Draft selections altered via trade:
3-16-16 mjd receives slizz' last round prospect pick (Bumgarner / Giolito)
3-20-16 bmd receives Pete's 2nd (2016 pick swap)
3-22-16 Meatwads receives Khahan's 1st (Dozier)
5-15-16 mjd receives Tosh's 1st (Tanaka)
1-14-17 Meatwads receives Fosten's 1st and 2nd (Darvish, etc)

These managers have had their 2017 Supplemental Draft selections altered via trade:
3-19-16 bmd receives Pete's 1st and 2nd (Beltre + 2016 2nd) for his last 2 picks
3-20-16 bmd receives blue hen's 7th for his 9th (2016 pick swap)
5-06-16 bmd receives WG's 3rd for his 12th (Carter)
5-06-16 Meatwads receives Species' 8th for his 14th (Lowrie)
6-02-16 Meatwads receives WG's 5th for his 13th (Crush / Carrasco etc)
6-06-16 bmd receives WG's 6th for his 11th (Calhoun)
6-09-16 slizz receives WG's 2nd for his 3rd (Nunez / Castillo)
6-09-16 Khahan receives Species' 6th for his 10th (Cervelli)
6-12-16 Tree receives WG's 7th for his 9th (Marte/Andrus)
6-22-16 blue hen receives WG's 6th for his 14th (Gray / Estevez)
7-23-16 Jaydog receives Species' 7th for his 12th (Ortiz)
8-01-16 darkside receives Slizz' 4th for his 9th (Pujols)
8-11-16 Pete receives Slizz' 7th for his 12th (Smyly)
8-13-16 WG receives Judy's 8th for his 9th (Sanchez / Markakis)
11-19-16 Great One receives Khahan's 5th for his 12th (Kershaw)
12-4-16 Species receives mjd's 1st, 2nd and 3rd for his 10th, 11th and 12th (Sanchez)
1-14-17 Fosten receives Meatwads' 2nd (Darvish, P-picks)
1-14-17 Guru receives Fosten's 3rd (Berrios)

These managers have had their 2018 Supplemental Draft selections altered via trade:
3-19-16 Great One receives WG's 5th for his 9th (Grichuk / P-Pick)
3-20-16 bmd receives WG's 1st and 4th for his last 2 (Blackmon)
3-23-16 mjd receives WG's 7th for his 10th (Plouffe)
3-23-16 mjd receives Species' 6th for his 9th ('16 pick swap)
6-08-16 Great One receives Species' 5th for his 10th (R. Davis)
6-11-16 bmd receives PeteN's 6th for his 12th (Cingrani)
6-15-16 mjd receives WG's 6th for his 14th (Kang, Pearce)
7-20-16 Tree receives WG's 8th (Jones/Wainwright)

The following managers have had their 2018 Prospect Draft selections altered via trade:
3-20-16 bmd receives WG's 2nd (Blackmon)
5-15-16 mjd receives Tosh's 1st (Tanaka)
1-14-17 Meatwads receives Fosten's 1st (Darvish, etc)

Previous Champions
2003 (tie) Ref and StL Cards
2004 Ref
2005 Ref
2006 Beastiemiked
2007 Twarpy
2008 Ref
2009 Peter N
2010 Species
2011 (tie) Species and blue hen
2012 Toral
2013 Wazaaap Guy
2014 blue hen
2015 blue hen
2016 Species

Commissioner:
"Species" gmrobinson1@yahoo.com - "Tosh" lodnar@gmail.com - "Guru" (Treasurer) davehall@rotoguru2.com

Positions
C - 1 1B - 1 2B - 1 3B - 1 SS - 1 OF - 3 DH - 1 P - 6
Active - 15; Bench - 8; Total - 23; Must have active players on roster at each position

Returning Managers
As commissioners, we reserve the right NOT to extend an invitation to (or remove) any manager for any reason. Primary reason for being excluded would be abusive behavior, purposeful rules violations (ie colluding on a trade), inactivity (ie leaving injured/OUT players in as starters or not actively trying to improve your team), not participating in league business or repeated delays/unresponsive, or failure to pay your share of league fees. If an owner is removed or NOT invited back, a new owner will be recruited to take over the vacated team in its exact state. All monies will be forfeited.

Trade Policy
If there are 7 votes against the trade it will be sent to the commishs to be vetoed. There will be a min. of one full day to vote before the trade will be approved if the max objections are not reached. Everyone will be emailed by ESPN automatically as soon as the trade is accepted so they may review it. Make sure your email notifications are set up! Please check the site daily.

Trades involving draft picks/prospects will be listed in the trade and can also be posted on our leagues bulletin board and/or our thread at rotoguru.com. Note that off-season and pre-season (before draft is complete) trades will still be approved by the commishs.

Trades for draft picks - be they Supplemental or Prospect picks - may only be consummated within two drafts from the date of the trade. Example: in March 2015 before the Supplemental Draft, one can only trade either 2015 or 2016 picks. In June 2015, one could trade either 2016 or 2017 picks, etc.

Trade deadline - the trade deadline is the last day in August available in the ESPN website.

Minimums for GP and IP:

A team must accumulate a minimum of 1375 GP by hitters over the course of a season. For each 15 games of shortfall, a team is assigned one demerit. Demerits will be integer values only. Thus, a team with 1-15 games of shortfall will receive one demerit, 16-30 will receive 2 demerits, etc.

A team must accumulate a minimum of 1200 IP over the course of a season. For every shortfall of 15 IP, a team is assigned one demerit. Demerits will be integer values only. Thus, a team with 1-15 IP of shortfall will receive one demerit, 16-30 will receive 2 demerits, etc.

GP and IP demerits will be combined for each team.

If a team finishes “in the money” for prize pool purposes (ranked 1-6), then demerits will be ignored.

For lottery teams, the following penalties will be applied to every pick in the next year’s supplement draft:

If a team accumulates more than 10 demerits, then it will be removed from the lottery and assigned the 14th pick in all rounds (i.e., behind all lottery teams, but ahead of any prize pool teams.)

For teams with less than 10 demerits, that team is pushed forward one place in the supplemental draft rankings for each demerit. For example, if a team finishes in last place (20th) and has 5 demerits, then that team will be treated in the draft rankings as though it finished in 15th place (and the teams actually finishing in places 16-20 will each move down one place.)

If more than one lottery team has a demerit, then the lottery rankings will be successively applied starting with the worst finisher and then moving up to the next worst finisher, etc.

Keepers
There will be 9 players available to be kept heading into the season. You will have a deadline to post your keepers. You may change your keepers up until the deadline.

Players drafted in the Rule 4 draft the previous June are not eligible to be kept as keepers. This rule applies even if that player has played in the major leagues. All Rule 4 draftees must go through at least one Prospect Draft prior to being eligible as keepers.

2016 Prize Pool
There are 19 of 20 people in the prize pool @ $15 each. That means there is $285 to distribute. Teams are required to always be in it or out of it once they committed to it in 2005. These will be the payouts: 1st $110; 2nd 65; 3rd 45; 4th 30; 5th 20; 6th 15. If a non-participant places 1st-6th, his money will be reallocated so there is always a 100% payout. 1st-5th place will be moved up a spot in the prize money and the 6th place $15 will go to the treasury to help defray dues costs to all. Dues are used to pay for the league champion trophy and draft.

Supplemental and Prospect Draft Lotteries:
The lotteries for both the Supplemental and Prospect Drafts will be conducted within 30 days of the end of the previous season.

Timing of the Keeper Deadline, Prospect Draft and Supplemental Draft
Each March, as proposed by a Commissioner, the league hold the following events, in this order:

1) Keeper Deadline: all teams must designate their keepers. They may designate up to 9.
NOTE: At this time, once the Keeper Deadline has passed, managers may also call up prospects to their active roster. In this scenario, those prospects are separate from their 9 keepers.
ADDITIONALLY: Once the keeper deadline has passed, managers may exceed 9 or more players by trade.
2) Prospect Keeper Deadline: Managers designate their Prospect Keepers. They may designate up to 3.
3) Prospect draft picks are assigned and the Prospect Draft is commenced per our rules below.
4) The Supplemental Draft is completed.

Supplemental Draft, FA Pickups and Waivers
The Draft will be held prior to every season after Keepers are announced. A "NBA style" lottery will determine the top three selections. The lottery for the following season will be completed within 30 days of the end of regular season. Picks 4 - 20 and all picks in subsequent rounds will be in inverse order of previous years finish and will not snake.

Players must be available in the ESPN player pool to be drafted or added during the season via FA or WW. No amateur player may be drafted or picked up via FA or WW if the player in question still has amateur status or is a prospect. Also, if a player is drafted in the June MLB draft, while he may be freely picked up and used on a roster, please note that per our keeper rules they may not be kept the following season. All Rule 4 draftees must go through one Prospect Draft before they become keeper eligible.

There is a 3 hour per draft pick time limit and a cumulative time limit of 12 hours. (Subject to change). You may not exceed 23 players. You may not drop a player (or add a non-drafted player if you are short) until waivers have been turned on. You may trade for extra picks and you may trade your excess picks as long as it is done before the preceeding pick has been made. If you make a duplicate pick, the draft will continue and you may correct that pick at any time. Once you have been skipped, you will continue to be skipped until you are caught up. If a clock runs out, the next person on the clock will be charged for any time before his pick. If you are skipped due to a pick or c clock, you may still post your selection at any time.

Waivers will begin the season in the same order as the supplemental draft. Lottery picks and traded draft picks will not be considered when determining the waiver order.

Prospect Rules
Prospect Draft: The Prospect Draft will be held during the preseason after keepers are finalized (but before the Supplemental Draft). Drafts will be in inverse order of the final standings of the previous year and will not snake. A "NBA style" lottery will determine the top three selections. The lottery for the following season will be completed within 30 days of the end of regular season. Picks 4 - 20 and all picks in subsequent rounds will be in inverse order and will not snake. Players will be selected on our thread at rotoguru.com if possible. If that site is down, our draft will continue on the bulletin board of our page if we have knowledge of all picks selected previously. Ties will be broken by a dice roll. There will be up to 3 rounds.

A draft-eligible prospect is defined as a hitter that has less than 150 Major League at bats or a pitcher with less than both 55 Major League innings pitched and 20 Major League games pitched. Further, to be eligible, the player must be a professional baseball player, defined as one of the following:

- Under contract with a MLB team's system. This does not require them to have been assigned to a minor league team at the time of the draft.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Japan's Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB) league.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Korea's Korean Baseball Organization (KBO) league.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Cuba's top professional league, the Serie Nacional.

Amateur players in High School, College or otherwise subject to the Rule 4 draft are not eligible.

There will be a 3 hour per pick clock and a 4 hour cumulative clock to draft. If you are skipped, you may make your selection at any time. Time will not accrue from midnight to 8 am ET, though anyone may select during that time if their pick is up. Once the draft concludes, the only way to add a prospect is via trade or future drafts. After the draft, you may bring this player on your active roster at any time (as long as hes in the ESPN database) by dropping a player.

Managers may call-up and then send down their prospect up to two times without losing their rights as a prospect as long as that player has not hit the maximum ABs/IP/GP threshold. Once a commish allows the call-up, he will add the number of times that player has been called-up next to his name in the Prospect List below. At the end of the season, all prospects on the roster will be considered optioned so they won't have to be counted as a keeper so long as they have not hit their threshold. Before a commish will option or send-down a prospect, he will look at the stats for that player including games played that day if the lineup freeze has passed. If a prospect is renounced or hits his threshold while on your roster (called up), his name will be removed from your prospect list.

All prospects are listed above. It is each managers responsibility to alert a commish when your prospect is entered into the ESPN database so an email alert can be attached.

Before the season at the keeper deadline all hitters must have less than 300 ABs and pitchers less than 110 IP or 40 GP or they must be moved to your active roster or released. Managers must monitor their own prospects. If they are later to have found to be over the max. at that deadline, the player will be immediately removed as a prospect and put on waivers.

At the prospect draft keeper deadline, all managers must have no more than 3 keepers on their prospect list. They may keep all three or none as long as none have been traded, (see below) but they will only get as many draft picks as it takes to max their prospects at three, barring a trade.

Prospect draft picks are assigned after your prospect keepers are announced. So if you have 3 prospect keepers, you dont have a prospect draft pick to trade. You may trade a pick at any time, but if you have traded a prospect draft pick, you may only declare two keepers. If youve traded two picks, you can only keep one and if youve traded all three, you may keep none. Once prospects have been declared and draft picks assigned, a manager may again exceed three prospects via trade.

Alphabetical list of Prospects:

Brady Aiken
Ozhaino Albies
Anthony Alford
Albert Almora
Aaron Altherr
Tim Anderson
Mark Appel
Franklin Barreto
Josh Bell
Cody Bellinger
Andrew Benintendi
Jose Berrios
Greg Bird
Bobby Bradley
Alex Bregman
Dylan Bundy
JP Crawford
David Dahl
Jose DeLeon
Rafael Devers
Anderson Espinoza
Lucius Fox
Clint Frazier
Carson Fulmer
Lucas Giolito
Nick Gordon
Hunter Harvey
Aaron Judge
Max Kepler
Kenta Maeda
Francis Martes
Eddy Julio Martinez
Jorge Mateo
Ryan McMahon
Austin Meadows
Yoan Moncada
Raul Mondesi
Sean Newcomb
Matt Olson
Shohei Otani
Byung-Ho Park
Brett Phillips
Roman Quinn
AJ Reed
Cody Reed
Victor Robles
Brendan Rogers
Dominic Smith
Tyler Stephenson
Robert Stephenson
Gleyber Torres
Trea Turner
Julio Urias
Nick Williams
Bradley Zimmer

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 13:12

Meatwads
ID: 142562814
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:05 548 -

Just for my own sanity, I want to clarify something. You mentioned my prospect situation, specifically Lucius Fox. Since he went on to post a paltry .582 OPS in Low-A ball last season, odds are not good I will be keeping him. If I were to release him, that would also open up my 2nd round p-pick. So I will be entering this p-draft with three 1sts and two 2nds, as well as Barretto.
--------------------------

Meatwads -- yes, your understanding is 100% correct.

FYI - I have asked Guru to post updated draft grids, inclusive of all of the recent / offseason trades. I trust he will do that sometime this week.

Khahan
ID: 370521713
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 14:52

I'm coming back.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 14:57

In.

slizz
ID: 3556212
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 14:59

slizz
ID: 3556212
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 15:02

...repost from 2016 thread (that has the font edits)

Now that football season is all but over (well...lets be serious, it was over for Bears fans after week 5) its time to focus on baseball! Like everyone in this league, I'm sure you're as excited as I am!

Off-season Trade Snippets

Man...I can't remember an offseason (during football season) where as many big deals have happened:

-Madbum for Buxton and Ray: Was a massive risk on my part. Credit to Nerf for pulling the trigger because as much as I love Buxton, the OB% could be a bit of a concern. I really really need Buxton to be close to September Buxton all season!

I think he is just scratching the surface of his talents...so hopefully he rewards me!

-GO's megadeal with Khahan for for Kershaw: GO is now a top 5 contender....Khahan has a surplus of young talent on the rise.

-MJD shipping the early part of his draft to Species for Aaron Sanchez: Species can now defend his title by capturing some saves early in the draft by building depth! MJD now has two frontline starters he can potentially count on from 2017-on to go with his solid core he's building.

-Fosten, Meatwads, and Guru megadeal: What a deal...its tough to evaluate it until Meatwads drafts, but all teams involved are happy.

SLIZZ OFFSEASON TRADE COMMERCIAL

Not that it should come as any surprise, but here are my likely keeps:

1B - Eric Hosmer
3B - Nolan Arenado
SS - Carlos Correa
OF - Gregory Polanco
OF - Byron Buxton
UT - Anthony Rendon
SP - Stephen Strasburg
RP - Wade Davis

1 more - probably a SP

As I've stated at season's end...I have a surplus of keepable players to sell. The leftovers are so good that I'm quite confident I could field a fringe top-10 team with them! ;)

That said, I have two (2) big names that can be had and I don't anticipate both being on my opening day roster. I'm not just dangling them out there to see what I can get:

STEPHEN STRASBURG, SP, WSH

I don't need to hype him up, we all know what he can do. Ideally, I would love to consolidate Strasburg and Rendon into something bigger.

ANTHONY RENDON, 3B, WSH

No, I do not hate the Nationals. Rendon just entered his prime years (26 years old) towards the end of last season. If Rendon still had 2B eligibility, he would be a keeper for me and off the table. He doesn't...he's at the hot corner where I happen to have the best hitting 3B in all of baseball, Nolan Arenado. Rendon is a top 45 Dynasty Keeper luxury (to me) who offers you a 20/20 infield bat with solid OB%. As of now, he's my 9th keeper, but I do not want to use that keeper spot on Utility.

That said, I am looking for a top prospect in exchange for Rendon on his own.

THE REST:

HITTERS:
Albert Pujols, 1B, LAA: The machine can still knock em in. While he isn't what he was in STL, he is good for 30 HR and 100+ RBI's. Would be looking to recoup what I paid for 1/3rd of a seasons' rental in a 4th round pick

Hernan Perez, 3B/OF, MIL: I honestly picked him up to stream and he never made it back to the WW. with 2B/3B/OF eiligiblity, he was highly effective for me all year as a swiss army knife who gave me Starling Marte-like production:

Hernan Perez / Starling Marte

Looking for mid-rd pick.

Yulieski Gurriel, 3B, HOU: I forgot I had this guy. Seriously!

What is known about Yulieski Gurriel is he hit .335 in his 15 seasons in the Cuban league with 250 home runs and 1,018 RBI. Last year, Gurriel had 15 home runs in 174 at bats with an average of .500 (not a typo). He bats right-handed and the dimensions at Minute Maid Park seem to play to his strengths. Of course, numbers in Cuba are to be taken with a grain of salt as the parks are smaller and it is not known the level of competition he has faced.

Also, trying to predict how a player will transition to the majors along with the culture of being a major league player is hard to do. Gurriel is 32 years old, or at least this is what is being reported, so there should not be the fear of facing the top level of competition as he has played in the World Baseball Classic and in the Olympics.

Gurriel had a higher average than Yoenis Cespedes (.319) with his slugging percentage only five points below the All-Star Mets outfielder. But his numbers are below Jose Abreu. Gurriel is ahead of Yasmany Tomas...

Surprise me!

Domingo Santana, OF, MIL: Santana has the physical profile to become a Fantasy difference maker. 25 HR power and double-digit steals in the top half of a lineup have plenty of value. Towards the end of the season, he was getting on base at a clip of .345% in 246 AB. At only age 24, he makes for a fine keeper with tons of upside. Kind of like Carlos Gonzalez years ago...Looking for draft pick compensation.

Jacoby Ellsbury, OF, NYY: Mid-late round pick. For someone looking for a 9th keeper cheap, he is your guy.

PITCHERS:

Sean Manaea, SP, OAK: Leaning towards keeping. Former #1 overall Rule 4 draft prospect until he got hip surgery. Pitches in Oakland, 8k/9, awesome ERA and WHIP, and I only expect him to improve. Of course, I'm open to packaging him for an upgrade where possible.

Robbie Ray, SP, AZ: I traded MadBum to squat on his rights for an offseason...but the more I read the more I like. Juiciest K/9 ratio in baseball after the late Jose Fernandez. If he can eliminate his hard hit % (worst in baseball), his #'s across the board should rise.

Drew Smyly, SP, SEA: We all know Smyly has the potential of a frontline starter. That said, Smyly has yet to put it together, consistently, over the course of a season...you'll get one starter where he's Scherzer-esque followed by an egg. I think with another year of seasoning and now moving from the scary AL East to the rather pedestrian AL West, (& playing 1/2 his games in pitcher-friendly Safeco) he makes for a solid 8-9th keep with upside.

CLOSERS:

Wade Davis, RP, CHC: Likely keeping. Most consistent RP and second best in the biz behind Britton.

Seung-hwan "The final Boss" Oh, RP, STL: Competing for my last keeper spot. Would like to make the decision easier. As a probable 1st round s-draft pick, am looking to trade for a 2 round discount (rd 3).

Tony Watson, RP, PIT: Pirates closer. Good ratios, 35-40 saves.

Mauricio Cabrera, RP, ATL: The next Chapman? 103mph fastball and delivers the goods.

Carter Capps, RP, SD: A personal favorite of mine...health issues? yes. His 2015 ratios are the best of any closer / RP...even dwarfs Betances.

PROSPECTS ON MY ROSTER:

Rowdy Tellez, 1B, TOR: The premier power hitting 1B in the minor leagues. With Encarnacion departing and only Smoak in his way, now is the chance to get your hands on the games next great slugger. Had a .900 OPS in 2016.

Alex Verdugo, UT, LAD: Got him as a pure upside play, much like Species got Lewis Brinson the season before. As per Keith Law one year ago: Only Corey Seager has a higher ceiling among Dodgers position-player prospects than Verdugo, who has special ability at the plate and when he's throwing, although ultimately he's going to end up in right field. At the plate, Verdugo has great bat speed and the ability to make quick adjustments, reacting well even when seeing an off-speed pitch in a fastball count. He started slow in Great Lakes, but those adjustments kicked in around the Midwest League All-Star break, after which he hit .349/.372/.460 with only 16 Ks in 200 plate appearances. He was then promoted to Rancho Cucamonga and raked.

He looks like a 20-homer, high-batting-average hitter who can play plus defense in a corner with a 70 arm and add a little value on the bases.

I'm hoping he rises to the Top 10 (much like Bogaerts leap from the 80's to #1 overall) when Law releases his top prospects in the coming weeks.

Willy Adames, SS, TB: With the WW picked dry, I am going with pure upside.

Like I said earlier, my team is loaded with talent that can help those in need of filling out their keepers. Please email me if interested!!!

jayrsherby@gmail.com

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 16:02

Prospect draft grid (from Species)

	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3
1	Judy	mjd	mjd
2	mjd	bmd	bmd
3	bmd	Nerfherders	Nerfherders
4	Nerfherders	Judy	Judy
5	darkside	darkside	darkside
6	GreatOne	GreatOne	GreatOne
7	Meatwads	Khahan	Khahan
8	Tree	Tree	Tree
9	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads
10	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog
11	Bean	Bean	Bean
12	Pete N.	bmd	Pete N.
13	Meatwads	Meatwads	Fosten
14	mjd	Tosh	Tosh
15	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman
16	WG	WG	WG
17	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen
18	Guru	Guru	Guru
19	slizz	slizz	mjd
20	Species	Species	Species

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 16:05

Supplemental draft grid (from Species)

	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Round 5	Round 6	Round 7
1	Judy	Species	Species	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd
2	Great One	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd
3	bmd	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders
4	Species	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy
5	Nerfherders	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside
6	darkside	Fosten	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads
7	Meatwads	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree
8	Tree	Great One	Great One	Great One	Great One	Great One	Great One
9	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean
10	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog
11	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan	Great One	Khahan	Khahan
12	bmd	bmd	Pete N.	Pete N.	Pete N.	Pete N.	Pete N.
13	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh
14	Fosten	Fosten	Guru	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten
15	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman
16	WG	slizz	bmd	WG	Meatwads	bmd	Tree
17	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	bmd
18	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru
19	slizz	slizz	WG	darkside	slizz	slizz	Pete N.
20	Species	Species	Species	Species	Species	Khahan	Jaydog

	Round 8	Round 9	Round 10	Round 11	Round 12	Round 13	Round 14
1	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd
2	bmd	blue hen	bmd	WG	WG	Pete N.	Pete N.
3	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders
4	WG	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy
5	darkside	slizz	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside
6	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	WG	Species
7	WG	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree
8	Great One	Great One	Great One	Great One	Khahan	Great One	Great One
9	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean
10	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog	Jaydog	Species	Jaydog	Jaydog
11	Khahan	Khahan	Species	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan
12	Pete N.	Pete N.	Pete N.	Pete N.	slizz	Pete N.	Pete N.
13	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh
14	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten
15	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman
16	WG	Judy	WG	WG	WG	WG	WG
17	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen
18	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru
19	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz
20	Meatwads	Species	mjd	mjd	mjd	Species	Species

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 16:13

Thanks Guru!

We seem to have a conflict with a pick being traded twice:

6-06-16 bmd receives WG's 6th for his 11th (Calhoun)
6-22-16 blue hen receives WG's 6th for his 14th (Gray / Estevez)

He has the opportunity to correct these by acquiring a replacement 6th.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 16:39

Also found a 2017 2nd round prospect pick that I missed that went from WG to GO. I have updated it in the Constitution and my draft grid. Will post updated grid at a later time.

PeteN.
ID: 8550318
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 21:34

GO
ID: 388562222
Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 21:45

I have confirmed with my scouting dept that we're both back. That is unless there is a league opening... then he hopes to be a candidate for that and ditch me and I'll make poor use of my extra prospect picks.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 09:47

I'll happily undo the trade above. WG can have Sonny Gray back, and I'll take back Jose Berrios (who has been traded twice since).

Bean
ID: 27592412
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 11:36

Bean
ID: 27592412
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 11:40

<6 & 7>Why would our draft position be different between the prospect and supplemental draft (eg. I am 9th in the supplemental and 11th in the prospect draft)?

Meatwads
ID: 142562814
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 12:02

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 16:30

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT

Meatwads trades
Justin Verlander
Pick 1.07 in 2017 s-draft

Blue Hen trades
Joey Gallo
Pick 14.17 in 2017 s-draft

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 16:33

14: Demerits -- they apply to supplemental draft only. You benefited from Fosten and another dropping down.....

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 16:42

In.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 16:54

16 - Dayum!! Ballsy trade!

If Gallo is Adam Dunn.......big win for Meatwads.

If Gallo is Chris Carter or worse.......there is more fleece in this deal for blue hen than $5 pajamas!! ;)

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 17:04

Excuse me, did Chris Carter lead his league in homers twice? And does he have a great walk rate (which counts in G20) to offset his strikeouts (which don't count in G20)?

Joey Gallo will have more future value in G20 than Justin Verlander, by a lot. I'm just hoping all of Verlander's value will come in the next few years and at great expense for many hitters.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 17:15

Oh, and confirmed. Still have a long list of players to trade:
- Zach Britton
- Cody Allen
- Jake Odorizzi
- Evan Gattis
- Troy Tulowizki
- Adam Duvall
- Sonny Gray
- Joe Musgrove
- Mallex Smith
- Jarrod Dyson

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 17:18

Excuse me, did Chris Carter lead his league in homers twice? And does he have a great walk rate (which counts in G20) to offset his strikeouts (which don't count in G20)?

Once, according to Baseball Reference. Last year, in fact. But he is considered so valuable that the Milwaukee Brewers DFA'd him for no return, and no MLB team has signed him to date.

Yeah, at a .320 obp those HR play in G20. His .308 obps? A little rougher to assimilate.

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 17:23

19 - I know I'm likely to get murdered in 2017 on this deal, especially since Verlander was a legitimate ace last year. I see this as a continuation of the last deal I made. Just trying to build up some serious young talent and hope I end up with a couple game changers in a couple years.

I think the Adam Dunn and Chris Carter comparisons as a ceiling and floor for Gallo are extremely accurate. I would say somewhere in between there is Chris Davis, and maybe the most likely outcome. Still, I know first hand how difficult it is to get power hitters with good OBP's in this league via trade, so the upside is massive if it clicks.

Overall, I felt giving up my 1st s-pick was a bit much, but I need to be bold to ever win this league. Especially with how strong some of the teams and managers are. I don't know if it will work, but I know it won't work waiting around.

From BH's perspective, I think it's a no-brainer. He was not going to be able to acquire a SP coming off a better season than Verlander. Getting a piece like that, for essentially someone he really shouldn't be keeping, considering how strong his keepers are, is great work. Getting the 7th pick in the s-draft is quite valuable for someone going for the championship too.

Tree
ID: 77532019
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 17:59

i'm in.

and always looking to make deals.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 18:15

In:
Species
Khahan
blue hen
slizz
Great One
Guru
Pete
Bean
Meatwads
Nerfherders
Tree
WG (by text evidence)

Waiting on (although based upon the offseason discussion activity on many of these, it is just a matter of them noticing):
youngroman
Tosh
Jaydog
darkside
Judy
bmd
mjd

Tosh
ID: 538582122
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 18:17

I'm in

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 20:45

Just some random notes as I try to get my mind around my team and minors.

Probable keepers:
1. villar 2nd/ss
2. mccutchen of
3. mazara of
4. dozier 2nd
5. conforto of
6. Nola P
7. walker P
8/9. Any 2 of Roark, Estrada Moustakas - need to see a bit of ST before settling down on which.

I'll be 10th keepering Greg Bird 1st, Josh Bell 1st, and Alex Bregman ss/rd

Only have 2 prospect picks and almost definitely keeping hold of Newcombe and dominic smith so unless I trade for some picks I'm probably out of this years prospect draft.

I have 3 pretty good up and coming options at 1st base if anybody is looking down the line.
Josh Bell is the #1 rated 1st base prospect and the #20 overall prospect in all of baseball. He's ML ready and should start at 1st out of the gate in 2017.

Dominic Smith is the #4 ranked 1st base prospect. He may not be ready for the big show until 2018. But with the Met's he just an injury away from playing time in 2017.

Then there is Greg Bird. He's big league ready and would have a year under his belt if not for the injury. He's most definitely the Yanks starting 1st base this year as Tyler Austin has been rather unimpressive so far. Bird has to the favorite in a rising yankees lineup.

If you dont like your 1st baseman or think your guy is getting old and needs replaced, send over an offer. I'm in rebuild mode so I'll value picks.

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 20:46

I also wouldn't mind hearing more input on the saves vs s+h debate.

Bean
ID: 27592412
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 00:42

<17> thanks didnt realize (prolly just forgot) that they didnt apply to prospects.

mjd
ID: 509211014
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 01:44

In and looking for another youngster or 2 to keep.

Not that anyone wants him, but JayHay is available.

youngroman
ID: 57047243
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 04:06

I' in.

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 13:54

I'm curious how the league typically handles off season trades on ESPN? Does the commish go through and manually do the trades right before the season starts, or should I be sending the offers through ESPN?

It would visually help to see my own roster updated, as well as making it easier to see exactly who everyone else has. I plan on being as active as possible until keepers are due, so it might become difficult if I have 5, 6, 7 incorrect players on my roster, while trying to negotiate trades.

I understand if it's too much work to keep the rosters updated every time there is a trade. I would just like to know if it's an option, and what to expect if not.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 14:20

32: Typically we would process all of those trades once ESPN releases the current-season version of the Fantasy Baseball site to make it official.

I actually wanted to manually push these through after some other early trades.....but that would have forced some managers to make cut decisions in October / November, and that's not consistent with what we have required in the past so it made sense not to push that forward.

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 16:11

I'm in.

Jackie Bradley Jr and Stephen Piscotty on the block. Looking to trade one. Both are 26 years old.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 16:53

I've run into the same problem as Meatwads, but understand the inherent difficulty. Would love to see a solution.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Jan 19, 2017, 17:14

35: if the owners that need to make cuts would agree to do so, then yes I am OK with manually putting them through.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 12:10

Right, not interested in cutting anyone in the offseason. That's why it's complicated.

Tree
ID: 77532019
Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 12:21

among guys on my trading block:

Edwin Encarnacion - 1b
Ryon Healy - 3b
Elvis Andrus - SS
Adam Jones - OF
Kendrys Morales - DH
Starlin Castron - IF
Jesse Winker - OF
Marcus Stroman - SP

Meatwads
ID: 142562814
Sat, Jan 21, 2017, 11:08

A couple managers have asked my who my keepers are projected to be, so here's what I'm thinking, if I have to decide right now. Obviously subject to change.

INSIDE LOOKING OUT...
Buster Posey, C
Chris Davis, 1B
Amed Rosario, SS
Christian Yelich, OF
Joey Gallo, OF
Vince Velasquez, SP
Kenley Jansen, RP
Craig Kimbrel, RP
Edwin Diaz, RP

I'm most interested piling up high upside guys between 20-25 years old. So players like Posey, Crush, Jansen and Kimbrel are almost certainly not going to be on my team, this time next year. Yelich and Gallo are the least likely to be moved. Rosario, Velasquez and Diaz all fit the age requirement, but aren't untouchable.

OUTSIDE LOOKING IN...
Dan Vogelbach, 1B
Kolten Wong, 2B
Brad Miller, SS
Jose Reyes, SS
Danny Valencia, 3B
Matt Chapman, 3B
Carlos Gomez, OF
Tyler O'neill, OF
Dallas Keuchel, SP
Adam Wainwright, SP
Matt Moore, SP
Michael Pineda, SP
Brent Honeywell, SP
Sergio Romo, RP

There's a few noteworthy players among this group. Miller's coming off a 30 homer season at SS and is in his prime. Gomez showed flashes of his former glory days down the stretch in Texas. The most notable may be Keuchel, who claims he was pitching injured last year. I expect a big bounce back.

So obviously the team is in transition. If anyone is interested in anything I'm throwing out there, send me an email at michaelpatrickrichards@gmail.com

Jaydog
ID: 106132311
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 10:05

Hey all,

I'm going to bow out of this league. I had a good time in it, but it's very clear that I cannot participate as actively as many in the league feel is necessary.

I appreciate all of the banter, negotiating, and competitiveness that this league has brought over the years, and wish all of you luck moving forward.

Jason

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 13:10

Thank you Jaydog for your years of participation in the G20 baseball league. We all understand how personal and professional responsibilities are of much higher priority than a fantasy baseball league.

The stakes have only gotten higher - so for some OGs and longtime members, the ever-increasing standards of minimum activity / commitment (let alone the commitment necessary to win) are not necessarily for everyone.

That puts us here at the moment:

In:
Species
Khahan
blue hen
slizz
Great One
Guru
Pete
Bean
Meatwads
Nerfherders
Tree
WG (by text evidence)
youngroman
Tosh
bmd
mjd
Fosten

Waiting on:
darkside
Judy

Out:
Jaydog

Please nominate possible replacement managers.

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 13:11

In. Excited to have already gotten some trades done this offseason. Couldn't be happier to be associated with a better group of 9 keepers. However, I am still open to additional trade ideas. CarGo and Upton are very much available. Also looking to move Robertson, Iglesias, Renfroe, Kang, Shelby, Skaggs, ArchieB. Feel free to hit me up anytime. Love talkin' me some baseball. Peace.

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 13:12

Right now my keepers are looking like:

Wil Myers 1B
Todd Frazier 3B
Orlando Arcia SS
Khris Davis OF
Lewis Brinson OF
Max Scherzer SP
Madison Bumgarner SP
Lance McCullers SP
Blake Snell SP

Interesting trade guys:
Dexter Fowler OF
Marcell Ozuna OF
David Peralta OF
Austin Hedges C

Greg Holland RP
Zack Wheeler SP
Jeremy Hellickson SP
Mike Foltynewicz SP

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 13:14

Jaydog's team:

Stephen Vogt, Oak C, 1B, DH
Justin Bour, Mia 1B
Josh Harrison, Pit 3B, 2B, OF
David Freese, Pit 3B, 1B
Marcus Semien, Oak SS
Matt Kemp, Atl OF
Ian Desmond, Col SS, OF
Leonys Martin, Sea OF
Adam Eaton, Wsh OF
Shin-Soo Choo, Tex OF
Travis d'Arnaud, NYM C
Yangervis Solarte, SD 3B, 1B, 2B

Chris Archer, TB SP
Johnny Cueto, SF SP
Rick Porcello, Bos SP
Ervin Santana, Min SP
Kevin Quackenbush, SD RP
Tyler Chatwood, Col SP
Kyle Zimmer, KC RP
Jeff Samardzija, SF SP
Darren O'Day, Bal RP
Matt Harvey, NYM SP
Zack Godley, Ari SP, RP

Prospects:
Austin Meadows, OF, PIT
Dilson Herrera, 2b, NYM
Dansby Swanson, SS, ATL

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 15:24

In terms of previous managers who have expressed interest in joining, we have 2 from last year and another that piped in earlier in the offseason:

Thumqer (GO's 'scouting department')
VampireWeekend (aka jseth)
taxman

Interest in our league / having a stash of interested players is a good thing. Please feel free to reach out to strong players in other leagues to see if they are interested and have them post here with their email addresses.

VampireWeekend
ID: 538552113
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 16:23

I remain interested in joining. Would appreciate the opportunity.

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 16:25

Species, thanks for including me as a potential candidate.

I've had a great time being co-manager for GO's team and can see this league is special. It took a little while to understand how deep this league goes, however once I got involved with his team I was able to learn and appreciate the complexity. I am excited to have a chance at taking on a team and putting my own stamp on the team and league. I'd like to think I've helped GO improve his team having been involved in all key decisions and determining league trade market values. If chosen to take on a team, I'd be sure to be active and diligent on emails and board postings, especially as I'd look to make this team my own product. Thanks again for considering me, I hope to be a bigger part of the league in 2017!

Thumqer

darkside
ID: 2822316
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 16:43

Sorry for being late to the game. Life has been challenging lately. I'm in.

Judy
ID: 35493114
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 16:57

I am IN! My babies are maturing -- take a look see:

C. Sanchez
1B. Santana
2B. Peraza
3B. Franco
SS. Russell
OF. Herrera

SP. Salazar
SP. Stephenson (10 keeper)
RP. Giles
RP. Neris

Also pick #1 in both supplemental and prospect. Yes. I am IN!

Judy
ID: 35493114
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 17:03

Do we have any dates yet? I am in and out of town for the next six weeks so would like to put at least tentative dates on my calendar now so I remember...

Thanks.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Jan 23, 2017, 20:17

Judy - the start of this year's season is a day earlier than last year. As such, the VERY EARLY, not set in stone schedule may be something like:

- Keepers due March 13th, Noon
- Prospect Keepers due March 14th, Noon
- Prospect Draft March 15th, Noon
- Supplemental Draft opens March 18th, Noon
- Supplemental Draft clock starts March 20th, 9am

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 11:55

After some consideration, including a sampling of some existing managers, I have decided to award the Jaydog franchise to Thumqer. His co-managing since the 2015 offseason (for which he receives credit from GO for assembling a stable of tradeable assets), including discussions and negotiations on players and trades along with a history of playing in keeper leagues and a comfort in working with prospects granted him a bit of a head start on the others who have also thrown their hat in the ring. Having a GO recommendation (slizz was his last recommendation - which turned out decent) was also a plus. After hearing his evaluation of the roster and what his general plans would be to make it his own, I was satisfied that he would make an excellent addition to our league.

I will be holding him to the pledge he made in post 47 about league activity - both in managing/improving his team and being involved in league discussions and business.

Welcome Nick / Thumqer to G20. You are authorized to make trades and manage your team effective immediately. To grant you access, I have sent you an invite to own Jaydog's team on the ESPN 2016 Fantasy Baseball site. Once you accept, I can delete Jaydog from it and all league emails from the ESPN site will be directed solely to you. Go ahead and update your team name and related league page info.

While you are not a stranger to the league, please go ahead and introduce yourself a little more formally, and let the rest of the league know about your background in fantasy baseball, as well as what you would like to do, trade/roster-wise, with your team. Please include your preferred direct email - it is a pain in the arse to communicate solely via ESPN's email feature.....

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 14:15

I agree with everything in the above post, except Slizz being a good recommendation. Welcome Thumqer! How do you pronounce that?

Also, want to properly say goodbye to Jaydog. Thanks for being part of this league. Obviously, it's a large commitment that none of us can keep up forever, but you had some good years in there. The Votto negotiations were fun and well-done; best of luck wherever the road takes you.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 14:17

PS, Thumqer, can you tell the group what your state bird is?

Khahan
ID: 16012515
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 16:01

Welcome (the rest of the way) to the league Thumqer. Guess I should stop including you in emails to GO about trade discussions.

PeteN.
ID: 8550318
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 16:27

Welcome Thumqer! Best of luck with everything in the future, Jaydog.

Bmd
ID: 825715
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 19:53

Welcome. Hope Thumqer didn't divulge all his hidden sleepers to GO and vice versa. The divorce could get ugly.

GO
ID: 17312218
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 20:02

We were discussing today. Thankfully most rankings are not out yet so discussion has been limited to broad generalization and how sneaky good Matt Kemp was last year. BUT I do do know what sites he likes and which stats he uses when comparing guys. He does metrics for a living so you can guess what type of data he prefers

Thumqer
ID: 440422520
Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 21:44

Thanks for the warm welcomes!

Before I introduce myself, I want to thank you all for having me on board. I am also thankful to Jaydog for his putting together promising pieces on the team. I'll do my best to turn it into a feared roster in time.

Blue Hen, I'm proud to say my state bird is the Blue Hen, which means there is an oddly high proportion of people with a connection to Delaware here. I am UDel grad and was a swimmer there while wishing the whole time I'd played baseball instead. As with many people who go to school there, I was strangely allured into staying in the state instead of moving home to PA, and I continue to live in Delaware today. I'm a Phillies fan and I understand I am one of a few of those in this league! That might mean we are dedicated baseball fans or it might mean we are desperate to watch a 'winning' team - even if it's just our fantasy team.

I have a long history doing fantasy leagues for baseball and football. Typically, you can see me looking for trades quite frequently so if that's your style, I'm your guy. I like keeper leagues as you really get to build an identity for your team while also keeping an eye on sustained success. On these forums, I've been involved with RIBC AA, the 8 Men Out keeper league, and GO's scouting department. I work with GO in real life and we can be seen talking about BABIP's on on the job quite frequently. The transition from his scouting dept to my own team should go fairly smooth as long as he gives me all the players I talked up to him. Did I mention Matt Kemp had a sneaky good second half last year?

Speaking of Matt Kemp (35 HR's last year!), I'll be making some moves to put my own spin on the squad. In general, I'd like to shift the strength of the team from pitcher heavy to a better balance of hitters and pitchers. I'd like to get younger where possible as well. I like the prospects on the team, but will trade them for equal young talent. Basically, all players can be had at the right price! I've got a couple nibbles of interest from some of you already, so hurry in if there's someone in particular you would be interested in. :) I can be reached at nawoomer at the mail from google. You may also see a note from me in the near future on your very own players too.

Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to kicking off my G20 career!.

Posted below is my squad for your convenience (as shown in post 44).

Stephen Vogt, Oak C, 1B, DH
Justin Bour, Mia 1B
Josh Harrison, Pit 3B, 2B, OF
David Freese, Pit 3B, 1B
Marcus Semien, Oak SS
Matt Kemp, Atl OF
Ian Desmond, Col SS, OF
Leonys Martin, Sea OF
Adam Eaton, Wsh OF
Shin-Soo Choo, Tex OF
Travis d'Arnaud, NYM C
Yangervis Solarte, SD 3B, 1B, 2B

Chris Archer, TB SP
Johnny Cueto, SF SP
Rick Porcello, Bos SP
Ervin Santana, Min SP
Kevin Quackenbush, SD RP
Tyler Chatwood, Col SP
Kyle Zimmer, KC RP
Jeff Samardzija, SF SP
Darren O'Day, Bal RP
Matt Harvey, NYM SP
Zack Godley, Ari SP, RP

Prospects:
Austin Meadows, OF, PIT
Dilson Herrera, 2b, NYM
Dansby Swanson, SS, ATL

Slizz
ID: 110271112
Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 12:59

Welcome aboard...I think acting as GO's assistant GM and having a general understanding of the prospect rules will make for a smooth transition.

Thank you to Jaydog for the competition over the years.

Three things:

-blue hen is right :(
-what is meaning behind the "q" Thumqer?
-what is your email?

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 14:11

It is always fun to look back at my team and see its evolution. For newer managers with a big hill to climb, perhaps this will give you hope that, in a relatively short period of time, you too can book your team for a Top-5 finish and league title contention. To wit......

In looking at the top finishing teams in 2016, going into the 2015 season (prospects listed are those from the end of the 2014 season) you may be surprised as to how few holdovers there are between their 2015 keepers and their (projected) 2017 keepers:

Species
Jose Abreu
Jacob DeGrom
Prospects Miguel Sano and Corey Seager

slizz
Eric Hosmer
Nolan Arenado
(possibly kept in 2017) Anthony Rendon
Prospect: Carlos Correa

blue hen
Miguel Cabrera
Joey Votto
Jose Altuve
Zach Britton
Gerrit Cole

Guru
Anthony Rizzo
Ben Zobrist
Kyle Seager
George Springer
Corey Kluber
Francisco Rodriguez
Prospect Francisco Lindor
He still owns Brandon Moss and Garrett Richards from 2015, although I would have to assume neither will be kept in 2017

-----------------------

OK sure, these teams also had more bullets to trade with - using me as an example, I traded Xander Bogaerts for Mookie Betts - but I think the lesson is valid either way. Do not despair! Make a plan and execute it!

Good luck to you all in your discussions as we lead up to Spring Training.

Thumqer
ID: 440422520
Thu, Jan 26, 2017, 21:47

@61: It's really Thumper, I just got used to most sites having that name taken so I've flipped the p around into a q. You all can call me either. email is nawoomer at g mail.

@62: I'm hoping for a quick rebuild for sure

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Fri, Jan 27, 2017, 16:34

Sometime this weekend I will have some time to craft a recap of some of the unfinished rule discussions from the season and offseason.....with the intent of finishing those discussions and, where appropriate, calling for votes.

Until then, I have something that I want opinion on as it pertains to making trades effective after deadlines.

An example is my Mark Melancon trade last year. After both of the keeper deadlines had passed, I traded a 2nd round prospect pick in exchange for Melancon. Meatwads and I negotiated that trade in advance, but waited until the deadline to post it and have it be official. It would have been nice to announce that trade in advance. Meatwads, obviously, had to keep Melancon to make it official, and I had to have my Seager and Sano 10th keeper callups done to comply with my side of the trade.

We could have completed that trade on like March 1st last year, and it would have read like this: "On March 16th, after both keepers and prospect keepers are announced, Meatwads trades Mark Melancon to Species in exchange for his 2nd round prospect pick."

Outside of the semantics of recording it, and a little extra effort for managers keeping track of what they have and don't have:

1) Do any managers see any risks, unintentional loopholes, manipulations, etc with allowing a trade to be consummated that does not take effect until after a deadline has passed?

2) If asked for a vote, what are your initial thoughts?

---------------------------

The main 'risk' I see is that an owner who has made a trade that will be effective post-keepers "forgets" or doesn't accurately account for the number of keepers (or prospect keepers) and then negotiates a subsequent trade with another owner that they cannot comply with based upon a trade that will be consummated after a deadline.

The other 'risk' is no different than what we do already. Offseason trades are official when announced, and if one of the traded players gets hurt or otherwise has their value lowered (i.e. a trade out of Colorado, losing their closer job, etc), that is the risk you take in finalizing a deal early.

I don't think allowing trades to be done in this way gives any team any unfair advantage. It does allow for the peace of mind of finalizing a trade, allowing those managers assurance that they each are getting the assets they want.....which provides clarity for subsequent moves.

Thoughts / discussion please.

Please NOTE: I have a selfish reason for throwing this on the table, as I have a few seeds planted for trades like this that - under our current rules - would not be truly consummated until keeper deadlines passes. Take that for what you will.

Slizz
ID: 110271112
Fri, Jan 27, 2017, 16:51

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT

Slizz trades:
Kelvin Herrera, RP, KC
S-Draft 6.19*

WG trades:
S-Draft 3.19 (acquired from Slizz in the Nunez Deal)

*now becomes BH's pick by way of the Gray / Estevez deal (Post #8)

Khahan
ID: 220342714
Fri, Jan 27, 2017, 16:58

1) Do any managers see any risks, unintentional loopholes, manipulations, etc with allowing a trade to be consummated that does not take effect until after a deadline has passed?

See a risk? Yes, I think this kind of trade makes it easier to hide collusive efforts. But with that said, knowing who the managers in this league are, I don't think collusion is a real concern.

Honestly I don't see how a rule will affect anything. If we put a rule in place to say, "trades are effective the moment they are announced," nothing will stop managers from simply waiting to announce them. Any rule against this would be unenforceable and there would be no gain I see in putting one into place.

How do you put a rule in place to stop, "Hey, make sure you have Melancon as a keeper. I'll make sure I have Bo Didley named as a keeper and after the deadline we swap."

Deadline comes, keepers declared and, "Trade announcement - Melancon traded for Didley."

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Jan 27, 2017, 21:51

If Melancon had gotten hurt, would this still have gone through? If he'd forgotten to keep him, tough noogies. The current system generally allows for this, and I'm fine with that.

I'd be open to clarifying part of it to ensure that the post-keeper trade is still balanced. With a previous version of this, and Matt Harvey as the player, there were basically two unbalanced trades that evened out, on opposite sides of the deadline. I'd be open to outlawing that. You can make two trades, but they have to stand alone.

I don't have a strong opinion on any of this.

Bean
ID: 27592412
Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 10:25

The rule to allow or outlaw this behavior would be a convoluted rule to compensate for inadequacies created by the already convoluted 10th keeper rule. More bandaids, dont you love it?

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 10:49

Never seen it in any fantasy league. There are just too many gray areas that can come up. I'd be against it.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 11:23

On a completely unrelated note, I am looking to trade one of my 3 prospects (De Leon, Devers, Bradley) for help right after keepers. Get you email in now, before this thread disallows it.

Judy
ID: 35493114
Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 21:16

Thumqer

Another Phillies fan here...
And Eagles, and Villanova basketball...
sometime flyers..not often sixers...

Welcome!

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 13:24

Yeah, 64 was a bad idea. Consider it tabled. Trying to have my cake and eat it too......

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 14:23

Spring training is just over two weeks away! It is time to get our loose ends tied off, update / correct some rules and discuss possible rule changes. We had a variety of discussions since the end of the season that we need to push forward:

1) Demerit system adjustment
We actually had a straw poll, and the league voted in favor of retaining the overall GP/IP minimum system. There was, however, a decent swell of sentiment for GP/IP adjustments. I had proposed lowering them, but Guru's 2 demerit forgiveness suggestion seemed like a good compromise.

We are likely to put this to a vote.....but before doing so, any new thoughts are appreciated.

You can look at last year's thread, starting at post 400 for some discussion.

2) Do we want to allow the use of other teams' prospect picks (when acquired via trade) to allow teams to either: 1) Keep more than 3 prospects; or 2) Use that traded-for pick as a "slot" to hold a prospect or replace a traded prospect pick.

This takes our somewhat convoluted prospect rules and throws even more options (along with chances for confusion) into the mix. I am all open to options, but we have a difficult enough time having managers understand the rules as they already are......

Depending upon the above, we need to refresh prospect pick rules to clarify our existing rules at a minimum.

3) A proposal to alter the saves category to saves plus holds was put on the table and we were asked for more discussion. Please refer to post 515 in our 2016 thread for more information.

I may be missing some. Any other hot issues out there that we need to resolve?

Thank you all for your passion for the league and participation in these discussions.

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 14:44

1) Completely neutral. Dont really have a strong opinion on either option.

2) Yes. I think this would get rid of some of the more confusing and non-intuitive rules and make it easier.

3) Yes.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 15:25

Obviously dependent upon whether we institute a change to how the league treats the accounting for what happens when you own someone else's prospect pick, I wanted to put forth some DRAFT language on how to better clarify our existing rules as how they have been treated / administered since my introduction to the league in 2005. Some are cut-and-paste jobs from our existing rules, some I have re-worded based upon how the rules have been administered.

Hopefully by clarifying that each of the underlined dates / procedures is done in order will help make things easier to understand.

--------------------------------------

Prospect Rules:
The underlined key deadlines and procedures are completed in a linear fashion, one after the other.

Keeper Deadline:
At a time announced by the Commissioner, all managers must have no more than 3 keepers on their prospect list. This is the only point in time where teams must have 3 or fewer prospects.

Managers will announce what prospects they intend to keep on the prospect list, which prospects they are releasing, and (if applicable) which prospects they are calling up and releasing (see below).

All hitters must have less than 300 ABs and pitchers less than 110 IP or 40 GP to remain a prospect. Otherwise, they must be moved to your active roster or released. Managers must monitor their own prospects. If they are later to have found to be over the max. at that deadline, the player will be immediately removed as a prospect and put on waivers.

Owning another team's prospect pick has no bearing on the above.

Assignment of Prospect Picks:
After declaration of kept, released or called up prospects, Managers are assigned new prospect picks dependent upon how many prospects they kept - with the total sum of kept prospects and new picks limited to a total of 3. Specifically:

- If you keep 3 prospects, you receive no new picks
- If you keep 2 prospects, you receive your 1st round prospect pick
- If you keep 1 prospect, you receive your 1st and 2nd round prospect picks
- If you keep no prospects, you receive your 1st, 2nd and 3rd round prospect picks

If an owner has traded away one of their prospect picks, they must reduce their kept prospects below three in order to comply with the terms of their trade. See "if you have traded away a pick", below.

Owning another team's prospect pick has no bearing on the above.

End of Keeper Deadline Activity:
Upon the completion of the keeper deadline and the assignment of picks, managers may then exceed three prospects by trade.

Processing of Traded Prospect Picks:
After the assignment of picks, the league will officially process all traded picks:
If you have traded away a pick: As noted above, any team that has traded away a pick must comply with the terms of their trade. This means that the number of prospects you are allowed to keep is reduced by the number of prospect picks you have traded away. As with any trade, if an owner trades away a pick in a round that they do not own, the receiving party receives a pick of a higher round to satisfy their trade.
If you have traded for a pick: Acquired picks are only used as picks in the Prospect Draft. The owning of another team's pick in no way alters the number of prospect keepers you may have, nor does it effect the assignment of your own prospect picks.

Prospect Draft:
The Prospect Draft will be held during the preseason after keepers are finalized (but before the Supplemental Draft). Drafts will be in inverse order of the final standings of the previous year and will not snake. A "NBA style" lottery will determine the top three selections. The lottery for the following season will be completed within 30 days of the end of regular season. Picks 4 - 20 and all picks in subsequent rounds will be in inverse order and will not snake. Players will be selected on our thread at rotoguru.com if possible. If that site is down, our draft will continue on the bulletin board of our page if we have knowledge of all picks selected previously. Ties will be broken by a dice roll. There will be up to 3 rounds.

A draft-eligible prospect is defined as a hitter that has less than 150 Major League at bats or a pitcher with less than both 55 Major League innings pitched and 20 Major League games pitched. Further, to be eligible, the player must be a professional baseball player, defined as one of the following:

- Under contract with a MLB team's system. This does not require them to have been assigned to a minor league team at the time of the draft.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Japan's Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB) league.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Korea's Korean Baseball Organization (KBO) league.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Cuba's top professional league, the Serie Nacional.

Amateur players in High School, College or otherwise subject to the Rule 4 draft are not eligible.

There will be a 3 hour per pick clock and a 4 hour cumulative clock to draft. If you are skipped, you may make your selection at any time. Time will not accrue from midnight to 8 am ET, though anyone may select during that time if their pick is up. Once the draft concludes, the only way to add a prospect is via trade or future drafts. After the draft, you may bring this player on your active roster at any time (as long as hes in the ESPN database) by dropping a player.

Prospect callup rules: Managers may call-up and then send down their prospect up to two times without losing their rights as a prospect as long as that player has not hit the maximum ABs/IP/GP threshold. Once a commish allows the call-up, he will add the number of times that player has been called-up next to his name in the Prospect List below. At the end of the season, all prospects on the roster will be considered optioned so they won't have to be counted as a keeper so long as they have not hit their threshold. Before a commish will option or send-down a prospect, he will look at the stats for that player including games played that day if the lineup freeze has passed. If a prospect is renounced or hits his threshold while on your roster (called up), his name will be removed from your prospect list.

----------------------------------

Please review and let me know if you have suggestions to better clarify/explain our existing rules.

Judy
ID: 35493114
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 17:21

52:

Week I am on vacation!
Keepers are set for me, plus 10th.
Will "renounce" Quinn, so 3 p draft picks. Have p draft 1.01 ready as well.
Should have 1.01 supp ready once keepers in. Will give list to someone?? Back in town March 20 late EDT.

Can we open a thread for those of us who already know keepers and p-keepers? One less thing to remember to get them out of the way.., pending of course massive injury to one of them...

Judy
ID: 35493114
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 17:23

Yes to saves --> saves and holds,
Neutral on other rule changes...

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 17:38

1. Keep as as is.
2. I'm ok with either.
3. Saves ONLY. Really do not want to add Holds. Feel really strongly about this.

GO
ID: 388562222
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 21:32

1. Reduce GP/IP minimums, seemed a bit aggressive. 2. First analysis I'm against adding more options to prospects cause i barely understand it as it is. If there a way to add this option and have t somehow make things simpler, I'm all for t.
3. Against Saves+Holds

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 22:14

1. No opinion.

2. Strong yes. And someone please talk through this with GO, I'm pretty sure he'll be a yes if he thinks this through.

3. Strong no.

Slizz
ID: 110271112
Sun, Jan 29, 2017, 22:51

1) keep it as is. Limits promote competitiveness...

2) keep it as is. Changing it promotes hoarding and the gap between the haves and have nots will only widen. Currently, the rule keeps it at a level playing field. As much as I would love to trade for, and have, 5+ prospects, it forces tough decisions.

3) Against. However, I would support a motion to eliminate saves all together...if that was to happen, we would need to find another pitching category to fill a 5x5. I absolutely hated having to start Jepsen, Cingrani, Papelbum etc. so maybe I could get a Save. If we can't, keep it as is.

Bean
ID: 27592412
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 01:13

<73>

1 Only change I'd like to see is to apply the demerits to prospect picks as well. You could argue that not including prospect draft position still incentivizes ignoring your team. Maybe even more so than the MLB players.

2 Only change I'd like to see is to have one and only one deadline for keeper declaration whether its prospects or MLB players. Declare ALL of your keepers at the same time and simply close all of the loopholes and follow the KISS prinicpal. This would do away with all of this 10th keeper nonsense. The additional rules that you discuss appear to just legitimize collusion and gaming the fantasy sport abstract, vs gaming the talent of players.

3 In favor of S+H or eliminating saves category altogether. Talent pool of closers is small, and the saves category unfairly rewards the guy who is first to the waiver wire.

In summary, can we just get back to playing a game where the winner is likely the one who is the best judge of baseball talent, not the guy who is the best at gaming the ruleset or fastest to the waiver wire? The way it is now, you need to hire a lawyer and stay glued to sports news outlets 24/7.

Khahan
ID: 8016308
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 09:16

I absolutely hated having to start Jepsen, Cingrani, Papelbum

With this comment I'm surprised the vote is against expanding the pool of viable players to use in this category Slizz.

Meatwads
ID: 142562814
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 11:33

1. I felt the GP/IP limits were too high. It does encourage more activity, but it makes life harder on rebuilding teams. I don't see any valid reason why someone in 17th place needs to be streaming through bums to meet high limits. I STRONGLY agree with Bean, from post 82. These demerits need to be applied to prospect picks as well. Managers will pay attention if their future is on the line. Nobody should be worried about dropping back a few spots in the s-draft, especially when your team sucks. Now missing out on a future franchise player, that's worthy of protecting.

2. I don't think the league rosters enough prospects, or allows for rebuilding teams a legitimate opportunity to get out of the basement through the minor leagues. I would not be in favor of making any changes that doesn't address that ongoing issue. If anything the prospect situation needs to be weighted even more heavily towards the bad teams.

3. I think the saves category, as well as the wins category will be completely removed from high level fantasy leagues in the future. I certainly don't think saves plus holds is perfect, but it is a step in the right direction. If the goal of this league is to have fantasy reflect real life, giving high end relievers who don't acquire saves value, and lowering the value of closers, would do that.

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 12:41

1. Yes. The GP/IP limits are too high, so I'd be in favor of anything that lowers them. A 2 demerit forgiveness would be 15 in either category and a step in the right direction.

2. Yes? I think it's the proposal that you can trade your prospect pick if you still have 3 prospect keepers? If it's not that, then I am not sure I understand the rule change.

3. Yes. Especially in this league where there is a limited commodity of saves.

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 12:52

Let's keep in mind that the three items laid out in post 73 are discussion items -- the purpose of bringing them back to our attention is to complete our discussions. That said, a general 'vote' is also helpful, which will allow the league to push the possibility forward or kill it.

If you are leaning towards a "Yes" for #1 or #2, please include your thoughts as to 1) why and 2) what you are in favor of / how you would change it.

youngroman
ID: 57047243
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 14:07

my thoughts on the potential proposals:

1. Demerits:
should be expanded to prospect draft as well. We need at least 1 more season to see if the limits are really too high. I guess some managers realized too late that they are way behind to come close to these goals. the proposed 2 free demerits is a small goody during the transitioning period.

2. Prospects: against it.
but: with the current rules you need to find a willing manager and can still have more than 3 prospects after the prospect draft. just let him draft the prospects you want and do a trade afterwards. the only problem is that you need to be down to 3 before the next draft. this can be be bypassed by trades as well. don't know if this would be within the spirit of the league though.

what kind of prospect picks would be required to keep 6 prospects? would 3.18, 3.19 and 3.20 be enough? they might be had for a discount compared to the value you of the kept prospect.

3. Save + Hold: no preference right now.
need more time to think this through. if we extend this to SV + HD then we should also think about raising the number of active pitcher slots because relievers getting holds will be more valuable than average pitchers getting wins. and you need more relievers to hit the the same limits as you would with a low-end starter. more rostered pitchers would mean less rostered hitters, resulting in more hitters available through waivers.

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 16:22

With prospects I'd prefer that a team can't have more than 3 at any time, if 60 is the total number we are going for. That would make the prospects rules alot simpler. Honestly though, I think we could take it to 5 prospects, which would eliminate alot of the prospects-as-FA shenanigans.

My proposal is to allow a team to trade their prospect pick even if they want to keep the three prospects they already have. What they are trading is not a prospect slot, but an upgrade to the pick. For example, Instead of picking 1.17 you can trade up to pick 1.5. If you are drafting only one prospect, you're trading so you pick at 5 instead of 17. The picks don't represent a prospect, they simply represent the order in which prospects are drafted. If the trading team also needs to draft a prospect, they are simply trading the first round pick, and would pick their prospect in the second round.

It would help teams that have 3 younger prospects not ready for a callup. Right now I have Frazier, Bellinger, and Espinoza, none of whom are going to see much if any time in MLB this year. I also have a very valuable high placed pick. In order not to waste that pick I have to 10th keeper Frazier. I'd rather trade that pick and keep all three in the minors.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 16:33

Note: if we switch to S+H, I'd recommend it no earlier than the 2019 season. WG just traded for Kelvin Herrera after all.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 17:52

1) would support the forgiveness of 2 demerits using the same limits.

2) my brain cramps whenever the topic of prospect picks/rules comes up. I'm for anything that simplifies.

3) At one time, I favored S+H as an option for RIBC. The last time it was raised, though, I recall that I was persuaded against it - although I don't remember exactly why.

I would probably vote against a change, but would not react strongly against it, as long as it's deferred to at least 2018.

Tree
ID: 77532019
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 18:11

1. Reduce GP/IP minimums. they are a challenge on rebuilding teams. that being said, i think the 2 demerit forgiveness is a nice bridge until the numbers get reduced.

on that note, i am strongly opposed to punishing people twice, for both the regular draft and the prospect draft.

if i were a rebuilding team, and was penalized in the prospect draft, i'd give thought to leaving the league, and that's the last thing we want from a rebuilding team.

2. um. sure. so, like, can't we just keep 5 dudes or less, and be done with it. i mean, why make people cut prospects? is there a point to that?

3. i'll wait to see if my vote matters. i have no idea.

Bmd
ID: 825715
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 21:40

I've played in leagues with holds and it isn't fun. Rotating middle relievers sucks but that will be the way you get points in that category. It changes the whole dynamic of the league. Top 5 teams will be the top 5 in that category because the other teams just won't care and will not rotate.

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 21:59

Thanks Judy!

@73:
1) in favor of reducing the limits... they do seem just a tad high
2) if I'm understanding this right, it looks like this will help around some restrictions in place now... but might be difficult to keep straight league wife
3) I'm a fan of the saves+holds. Te me, saves are a very narrow category so the holds part adds more ways to be successful in this category without having a closer heavy lineup

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Mon, Jan 30, 2017, 22:17

Edit to my above post - might be difficult to keep straight. Minus league wife. Autocorrect?

PeteN.
ID: 8550318
Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 10:02

1) Keep as is.
2) Keep as is.
3) Against adding holds.

Tosh
Leader
ID: 057721710
Tue, Jan 31, 2017, 13:47

1. Keep limits the same. Demerit forgiveness is neutral. Demerits apply only to s-draft ... Not the prospect draft.

2. No change.

3. No change.

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 03:29

1) I'd vote to reduce GP/IP minimums significantly (way more than the 10 GP/15 IP proposed), otherwise eliminate minimums altogether. Teams should stream to help their stats, not be forced to stream just to reach some arbitrary limit. I can see Guru’s logic "I dont think its unfair to assess a cost to teams in return for their presumed benefit of keeping their longer term options available.” Yet I also see Tree's logic that the existence of minimum rule "negates the intent of the rule, to keep people from tanking, while not tanking, one is essence tanking.”

I’d assert that streaming has its own inherent cost/benefit via +counting/-rates or -counting/+rates in the standings.
--- a) If a team avoids streaming for better rate categories is the lower draft pick not already the cost? ie. another 100 k’s won’t help, yet not losing 0.25 ERA boost me in standings, and lowers my draft pick.
--- b) On the flip side, how do minimums prevent streaming razz players to purposely tank rate categories? ie. another 100 k’s won’t help, yet a loss of 0.25 ERA drops me in the standings, and increases my draft pick.

Either of these methods can be used to achieve both good or bad things. Whereas one team can +counting by streaming, another can +rate by not streaming. If I can jump the 1st place team in a rate category, or jump the 19th place team in a counting category, which strategy do I choose then? Life, itself, is all relative.

2) It seems natural to allow teams to use acquired p-picks as p-slots. Completely agree with mjd on this issue. Wish I could acquire a p-pick this off-season to cover the 2 p-slots I traded away. To prevent hoarding, simply make it so teams can only reaquire slots to get back up to 3, but still can keep no more than 3 prospects at deadline.

3) No strong opinion either way. Giving value to holds would give more pitchers value. However, increasing the middle relievers one owns, limits ability to reach the excessively high IP minimums. See #1. Meatwads makes sense, "If the goal of this league is to have fantasy reflect real life, giving high end relievers who don't acquire saves value, and lowering the value of closers, would do that." Yet, I would be interested in hearing more analysis from the teams who are against it.

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 09:47

If we want this league to reflect real life, I have some suggestions. I have a strong preference for closers - part of the fun of fantasy is speculating who might get the job, in addition to speculating on the quality of their stats.

100

Meatwads
ID: 142562814
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 10:19

This article was written on March 5, 2014 on the subject of switching from Saves to Saves plus holds. I didn't have time to read through it all, but it surely has more relevant information, in favor of switching, than I could provide off the top of my head. Hopefully it helps the discussion by making perfect sense or being easily debunked.

http://fantasyassembly.com/2014/03/05/savesholds-over-saves/

101

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 10:31

First paragraph: "Today I’d like to discuss another change that could not only improve things, but would level the playing field and add some extra value to some of those little used players that lay to waste on the waiver wire."

If this was actually true, and the key was to troll the waiver wire to win this category, then I can't imagine Judy or Bean or Darkside or any of the "get to the keyboard" opposers would actually want S+H.

But there's a bigger problem - holds are less predictable, meaning more luck is involved, and reduces the odds that the best manager actually wins. To me, that's a dealbreaker.

102

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 11:36

The saves are already based on manager discretion and luck. I view holds as another source to contribute to this category and therefore opens the pool for more options. Think of it as diversifying a portfolio- where your options for success has increased when spreading the luck accross many individuals as opposed to 30 or so select players in the league.

103

Khahan
ID: 46138110
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 11:38

If this was actually true, and the key was to troll the waiver wire to win this category, then I can't imagine Judy or Bean or Darkside or any of the "get to the keyboard" opposers would actually want S+H.

Just the opposite happens blue hen. When you have 30 players who can regularly contribute to a category and 1 gets hurt, it IS a race to the keyboard to get his replacement.

When you expand the pool to have 80+ people available to contribute to a category, as we do with every other stat you can recover from unpredictable events like freak injuries.

Rotating middle relievers sucks but that will be the way you get points in that category

This is the only argument I've seen against S+H that boils down to more than personal preference.
I've always been more in favor of rules that make the season more about how you draft and how much you know about players than about how often you can micro-manage teams. We have IP caps just avoid having stats accumulated thru daily micro-transactions. So this is something I hadn't considered. But still, since we have an IP limit I'm not sure how the need to micromanage would exist, but I'm willing to admit it could an unforeseen consequence I hadn't considered.

104

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 13:04

The numbers indicate how many pitchers reached the mark last season. Maybe it can help someone besides myself visualize what we're talking about. Maybe not...

2016 SAVES AND HOLDS

40+ Saves : 6
40+ Holds : 1

35+ Saves : 12
35+ Holds : 1

30+ Saves : 16
30+ Holds : 1

25+ Saves : 20
25+ Holds : 18

20+ Saves : 22
20+ Holds : 33

15+ Saves : 32
15+ Holds : 59

10+ Saves : 42
10+ Holds : 101

5+ Saves : 53
5+ Holds : 160

1+ Saves : 148
1+ Holds : 308

105

Bean
ID: 27592412
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 14:13

thanks Meatwads, very helpful

106

darkside
ID: 81492120
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 15:37

Always good to specifically point fingers at people, blue hen. Still a class act, I see. Funny enough, I'm for adding holds because closers are stupid and this would make them less valuable.

1. I'm fine with the limits, but would have no problem with Guru's demerits forgiveness idea.

2. Anything that simplifies the prospect rules sounds good to me. Are we sure this will do that?

3. I'm for adding holds. The save statistics is amazingly stupid. Thankfully, baseball is figuring that out as well (see: Francona, Terry).

108

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 18:35

In terms of my 'vote' or thoughts on the proposals:

1) I think the limits are fine, but I am supportive of the 2 demerit forgiveness rule as a compromise.

2) If we had more liberal prospect rules it would be to my team's benefit. If we were to allow teams to carry more than 3 prospects, or allow the use of another team's pick to replace a pick they have traded away, what I would probably advocate is requiring that a team hold another teams FIRST round pick in order to roster a 4th (or 5th, or 6th, etc) prospect.

Going to the next step, if you have traded away your 2nd round prospect pick, but still want to keep a prospect in that 'slot', I would be in favor of being able to use another team's pick from the same round to offset one of your own prospects.

I am not a fan of the idea that mjd articulates in post 88. It is the manager's responsibility to balance the highest upside, long term holds with the timing of when those prospects will be ready for MLB. Before I ever make a prospect pick, I consider that balance. If you draft a bunch of HS players or teenage international players that will take 4 years (if that!) to blossom into MLB stars, that's on you......it is not the system's fault that you maxed out your 3 slots.

3) I am neutral on S+H. If pushed, I would probably vote no but do not have a strong opinion on it as a whole.

What I would insist on as commissioner if this were to move forward to a vote would be that this rule wouldn't take effect until 2019. Teams have structured their rosters to include young closing studs and they do not deserve to have a piece of value taken away from them by rule change. Having 2 full seasons to account for this rule change seems fair.

-------------------------------

So, taking stock in where these possible rule changes stand right now:

1) Demerit system
7 managers are in favor of lowering the limits or going with the 2 demerit forgiveness option. 3 more managers do not want the limits changed but would support the 2 demerit forgiveness rule as a bit of a bridge while we figure out how this works the next year or two.

3 managers voted no.

3 managers would like to see the demerits apply equally to the prospect draft.

3 managers had no real opinion.

Commissioner's take: This has real support. It is my opinion that the 2 demerit forgiveness recommendation is a good compromise that meets in the middle. I can also add a rider to the rule change vote about having it apply equally to the Prospect Draft as well.

I will be putting this to a formal vote soon.

2) Prospect rule changes
This one is tricky because there really wasn't a specific rule change specified (mjd kind of did), so the responses were all over the board, along with a lot of no opinions / I don't know type responses.

4 managers voted yes.

5 managers voted no.....with a 6th team saying the only change they advocate is having both Keeper deadlines (9 keeps and prospect keeps) the same

6 managers had no real opinion

Commissioner's take: It does not seem like there is a sufficient enough groundswell to make some changes here in 2017. As commissioner, our prospect rules cause the most heartburn across the league. Making it more complicated would add more challenge to it.

That said, this is not my league....it is OUR league. All 20 of us. If a manager wants to take the lead in crafting a SPECIFIC proposal, with straightforward wording, they can always promote their idea for discussion. It it receives enough support I can call for a vote.

3) Saves + holds in place of saves:
7 managers are in favor

8 managers are against, including 2 in strong opposition

2 managers have no firm opinion

Commissioner's take: This is close and has sufficient support to be put to a vote.

Question for those in favor: any opposition to my suggestion that such a rule change would not take effect until 2019??

109

Bmd
ID: 825715
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 21:20

Species, can we vote on changing the game limit per position player from 170 to 162?

110

Species
ID: 46252312
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 22:29

bmd: Can you provide your rationale for offering this up as a proposal? Why is it beneficial to the league? How does it promote competition? Etc.

112

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 23:45

It gives those that have healthy teams an even bigger advantage. It's a game of musical chairs. It's basically a limit that encourages teams to rotate to "off day" players at every opportunity they can. Trying to determine who is going to start on the 4 game slate on Thursday's isn't fun to me when I have to do it every time there's a short slate of games. It weeds out anyone that wants to treat this league as a season long league rather than a daily fantasy league. Yes, that's overstating it. I just really hate the idea that I need to rotate off day position players most short game slates to win this league.

Last year, the top 7 teams by games played finished, finished 2, 3, 1, 4, 16, 6, 5.

3 MLB players played 162 games last year. 83 players played 150 or more games. With a utility slot there are plenty of extra games for teams that are deep to take advantage of the off days.

113

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Wed, Feb 01, 2017, 23:51

I'd second bmd's motion. We have a cap, presumably to stop us from gaining a competitive advantage by rotating players on a near daily basis. We then have a punitive side for not meeting that cap which we can only do by rotating players on a daily basis to some extent.

114

Bean
ID: 27592412
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 01:49

<108> Question for those in favor: any opposition to my suggestion that such a rule change would not take effect until 2019??

Sounds good to me, gives a nice transition for those who have investment in closers.

115

Bean
ID: 27592412
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 01:52

<109> I will second that

116

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 09:39

Re: 106 Darkside, none of this, as usual, is directed as you personally - just seems like that's the way you always seem to take it. Come to New York and have a beer sometime - it's on me.

Also, if the saves statistic is "amazingly stupid" then what do you consider holds to be? You want some examples of how stupid holds are?

117

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 09:43

Some thoughts regarding holds

Holds are relatively flatly distributed, meaning that it’s hard to select a reliever who will outperform the crowd. Last season, over 30 relievers recorded between 13 and 20 holds. Only 23 relievers had over 20 holds with only four reaching the 30 hold mark. Pitchers don’t often repeat near the top of the leaderboard – only Tyler Clippard and Joel Peralta have in recent years.

In a daily roto league that allows streaming, my preferred approach is to keep a spot or two open and chase matchups with fresh relievers (i.e. guys who didn’t throw the previous day). I want the reliever to matchup well with the opposing lineup, and I want his team to have a decent chance at winning. I’m not going to chase a Pirates setup man if they’re throwing Jeff Locke against Clayton Kershaw. In this type of league, it should be relatively easy to post a high holds total by simply remaining active on the wire. You don’t need to get lucky with a 40 hold guy to take the category.

And that's just in 5 minutes of googling.

118

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 09:53

Deferring a S+H rule change (if enacted) to 2019 seems longer than necessary. Why not 2018? I understand the concept, but it seems that managers should be able to adapt over the course of one full season.

119

Khahan
ID: 56118210
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 11:18

117 - From your link BH:

Allow me to start by saying that I really dislike holds as a category. Saves plus holds makes plenty of sense – you’re basically telling owners to draft the best relievers regardless of role

120

Khahan
ID: 56118210
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 11:21

Also, BH, that article seems to be targeting Holds as its own category and strategies to deal with Holds on its own.

121

Bean
ID: 27592412
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 11:31

As I suggested earlier, just get rid of saves

<82> In favor of S+H or eliminating saves category altogether.

122

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 11:40

123

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 11:56

Re: 118, someone who traded for Kelvin Herrera this week has to have been considering 2018 keepers in the deal, do you disagree? Otherwise, he would have traded for David Robertson or some older closer.

Like Seung Hwan Oh.

Not to get too much into other team's trading business, but WG and I had a discussion about which closer to go for in his trade. I said Oh due to higher current value........but he chose Herrera due to longer term closer value.

124

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 12:45

112: It gives those that have healthy teams an even bigger advantage. It's a game of musical chairs. It's basically a limit that encourages teams to rotate to "off day" players at every opportunity they can. Trying to determine who is going to start on the 4 game slate on Thursday's isn't fun to me when I have to do it every time there's a short slate of games. It weeds out anyone that wants to treat this league as a season long league rather than a daily fantasy league. Yes, that's overstating it. I just really hate the idea that I need to rotate off day position players most short game slates to win this league.

If I recall correctly, the 170 game limit has always been there, including when you won it in 2006. Was the limit too high back then?

All that has changed is the evolution of streaming in the fantasy baseball context. I never did it either, but the league evolved, got better and better managers so I had to evolve with it or not compete.

While I have never a fan of the "but this is the way we have always done it" argument - be it in business, with family or (like here) with friends - I am not sure what you are trying to argue in terms of the benefit to the league. This wasn't a rule we changed - the competitiveness of the league was increased by working withing a longstanding rule. Basically your position is that you want to lower limits because you don't like to/don't have the time to stream hitters.

I love this league because it is VERY hard to win. This league has only gotten more and more competitive, so the satisfaction of reaching that mountaintop is all the sweeter.

Ever watch "American Ninja Warrior"?? Would it be as cool if that last vertical wall was lowered 5 feet in order to make it easier for people to scale?

126

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 13:03

Writing the above argument probably makes my position against Saves + Holds all the stronger. If some teams are struggling with getting their GP up towards our limits, imagine trying to stream relief pitchers for holds.

As noted in bh's quote, the winning strategy in S+H is rotating 2 or 3 middle relief positions almost solely based upon opportunity. Did they pitch yesterday? Cross them off. I have little doubt I can stream to win that category over teams that draft the Tyler Clippards of the world. And now I don't have to take up a single keeper slot -- NOR make any desperate trades of real assets for closers.

Let's think about that. The trading of closers is a great way for non-contenders to wring some value out of the rosters of contenders. If we pass S + H, you can forget about it. Sure I will still want a Chapman/Jansen/high K closer with great ratios still........but now I have ZERO incentive to trade for a mediocre closer because I can win the category by streaming.

AND: as youngroman points out, we would probably have to add another roster position in order to accommodate a new rule of this nature.

127

Khahan
ID: 56118210
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 13:35

Species - I don't know that I'd call a manager who streams a 'better' manager. It just means he has more time on a day-to-day basis to make small changes that add up over time.

As far as winning the category by streaming - we do have an IP cap. You can only stream so much.

but now I have ZERO incentive to trade for a mediocre closer because I can win the category by streaming

I'd say you have 0 need to trade for a mediocre closer because you could trade for a good set up man instead. All the worries about streaming - in a 20 team league do we really think there will be an abundance of guys on the WW to stream with?

128

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 13:41

Last day of the season. Slizz (10th place) has Arquimedes Caminero in his lineup. Pirates up 1, 1 out in the 8th, facing Cards in a winner take all game. First batter, Yadier, pops out. Carpenter walks. Grichuk singles, Carpenter to third. Piscotty walks, Grichuk to third. Watson replaces Caminero, and strikes out Diaz. In the 9th, Cards explode for 5 runs and win the game.

Team Slizz gets a hold, moves into a tie with Species in S+H at 17.5 points. The half point breaks a tie with BH, who takes the title from Species by that same half point.

You guys really want to end a season like that?

129

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 13:42

Re: 127

in a 20 team league do we really think there will be an abundance of guys on the WW to stream with?

Yes, I do it basically every day, every year.

130

Judy
ID: 35493114
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 13:48

101
before I -- Judy -- read any further, let me be clear that I do want saves + holds to be a category.

Will rest of thread when I get home tonight... gotta go out...

131

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 13:58

127: Species - I don't know that I'd call a manager who streams a 'better' manager. It just means he has more time on a day-to-day basis to make small changes that add up over time.

Not untrue, but from another perspective any manager who uses every possible avenue allowed within the rules to gain over someone who doesn't IS in fact a better manager in my opinion.

I had to learn the hard way in 2011 when I tied with blue hen. I should have beaten him. If I would have streamed hitters and made those incremental improvements in my hitting, I would have won. blue hen outmanaged me in 2011 and posterized the whole damned league when he put up all 20s in the offensive categories. I learned.

I am not going to vote for it, but part of me hopes this passes. The teams that really think drafting and holding Joel Peralta and Tyler Clippard is going to amass more S+H than I can though a stud reliever or two and streaming would likely be in for disappointment.

132

Bmd
ID: 825715
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 15:06

Species, not sure what my win in 2006 has anything to do with the rule. Are you suggesting I'm trying to change the rule to benefit my own team? I don't stream because my team has been in rebuild mode. I have zero benefit to reaching 162+ games.

It was a poorly though out limit since it's inception. I've been trying to reduce it for a long time. Hoops was similar in that the game limit was ridiculous. That finally got lowered.

There should be some thought when starting a guy. Right now it's a blind, you start every possible guy you have. The only strategy is how many rotation spots you have for position players and pitchers.

133

Judy
ID: 35493114
Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 17:53

128

Listen to basketball. You win by 2 in the last second -- like Villanova the other day. Or in the 2016 finals!

Do you see replay shots of baskets made during the game? Heck no, but if they weren't made, the last basket wouldn't be worth a hill of beans.

That great play would not have made a difference if another 2 pointer had not been scored at some point during the game.
Last minute wins are built by action over the entire season/game. The game winner/loser basket is most remembered, but the whole season/game contributed to that possibility happening.

134

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 09:42

Exactly. If I'm Kentucky all year, I don't want to lose because Villanova got lucky. Perhaps less talented managers might want to push for a league like that, but I sure don't.

135

Khahan
ID: 18142310
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 11:42

Perhaps less talented managers might want to push for a league like that And some highly talented managers are pushing for a league like that, too.

Also, I think you completely missed the point of what is being stated. That 'lucky' shot at the end did not 'win' the championship. Scoring more total points over the course of the whole game did.

136

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 11:56

Heh, the "less talented" part was mostly a joke - hoping this league sees it that way, especially coming from a guy who finished 5th.

But I do think that S+H is very much related to luck - holds are so inconsistent from year to year, and aren't always good things for the actual MLB team.

137

Judy
ID: 35493114
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 12:41

Saves are related to "luck" as well -- who is lucky enough to hear of an injury, promotion, etc and get to the computer first!

Sadly, it is never me...

Ex: I had Giles and kept him as a former Phillies, hoping he would eventually get the closer role and he did, but it sure took a long time when I got essentially no saves except by accident.

138

Bean
ID: 27592412
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 12:52

<137> Easiest way to "fix" that is to have all players on waivers all of the time. However, you would not be able to stream very well in that format. Not being able to stream effectively would make the 170 GP per position a tough thing to achieve.

I would like to see this "waiver rule" invoked AND the 170 limit reduced to 162, but I dont see a groundswell of support for that in this league or anywhere in the rotoguru world.

139

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 13:02

Okay, I will be putting Saves Plus Holds and the Demerit tweak to a vote in the very near future. I think for the most part the league has had a good chance to debate its merits or lack thereof.

I would like more broad feedback on bmd's suggestion in post 109 / 112 (with some point/counterpoint in posts 124 and 132) to lower the maximum number of position player games from 170 to 162. If there is some traction, I will include that in my call for league votes.

140

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 13:12

If the GP limit is reduced from 170 to 162, then I'd want to better understand how that might impact teams' ability to reach the minimums.

Maybe it's not much impact at all. But if a team is trying to to stream extra GP to reach the minimum, reducing the limit from 170 to 162 would seem to have at least some impact. Streaming in some slots would be more limited, for sure.

141

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 13:22

Adding another counterpoint to bmd's arguments in favor of reducing the maximum GP limit from 170 to 162.

In thinking about it, I guess my position against this proposal is rooted most in what makes G20 different than many of the leagues we play in. As I outlined in Post 446 here, this league was founded to go deeper and be more challenging than your standard league. There are tons of leagues available - here at Rotoguru or on your various public fantasy platforms (Yahoo, ESPN, etc) - that cater to a more relaxed standard to achieve excellence.

The 2017 will be the 15th season of Gurupie 20 Baseball. As commissioner, for some stupid reason I take the on task of continuing the standards and traditions upon which the league was founded. If my interpretation linked above is incorrect, someone please correct me. But I firmly believe that this league was founded to hold its members to high standards. I guess that is why I get somewhat defensive when those standards are challenged by rule change suggestions designed to make this league easier, lower competition or have the league be more standardized.

Speaking of which.......I apologize bmd.....I got a little snippy in Post 124.

----------------------

On another front, please bear with me at times as a toggle between official commissioner duties and advocating my own opinions from the perspective of a team owner. My viewpoints on most items are from the perspective as a team owner.........but there are times where I must advocate a league/commissioner point of view in tandem with a team owner's argument.

This makes me feel awkward, because my vote or perspective on a rule change should have equal weight to any of the other 19 managers. But then I jump in as Commissioner to "defend the constitution" (so to speak) - and I don't ever want to appear like I am trying to overly influence the direction of a vote that way. If you think I do, please call me on it privately.

142

Khahan
ID: 18142310
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 14:19

I would be in favor of lowering the maximum games played. I wanted to join this league because it is considered the cream of the crop of the guru leagues (this from a guy who has founded and continued in multiple leagues on these boards myself).

The competition is stiff and tough and knowledgeable. So when I look at the caps we have and see the sheer number of managers who fell well short I have to take a step back and ask why. Out of the managers who got demerits for coming too far under, none of us (or almost none of us) got those demerits for lack of activity. We got it for not having enough starts from our players which is interpreted by lack of activity - but its just not a true reflection of our activity. We are being punished for making what we felt were the best choices for our team. But in making those choices we were showing we are active.

Out of the sheer number of managers who missed the caps (demerits or not), again it was not due to apathy or lack of attention to teams for the most part.

I guess before I truly say if I'm in favor of it or not I do have a question - was this season an aberration with the amount of managers missing the cap or the norm?

143

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 15:15

I can't say why the 170 GP cap was put in place because I wasn't in the league from the start. I will say that I have never seen that in any other league I've been in. To me it would be very hard to hit that cap without intense streaming of all positions. Even if you had 2 1B, for example, that started every game, it would be hard to get to 170 because they would share too many off days.

On the other hand, dropping to 162 would be restrictive to the point where you'd actually have to watch some of your positions in those last two weeks. I have run out of games without streaming with that as the limit. I'd be more in favor of an overall GP limit of 1458 (9 x 162) because some positions are almost impossible to get to 162, like catcher, while some are easy to go over. Those extra games from catcher could then be used for other positions.

144

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 15:27

Out of the managers who got demerits for coming too far under, none of us (or almost none of us) got those demerits for lack of activity.

Not entirely sure that's correct.

Not sure if Judy is an outlier, but I have almost never made a move (especially a time sensitive move) from a computer. It's almost always from my phone, using the ESPN app. And I usually get the news from alerts from two or three apps I have installed.

I've tried to be quiet on topics like this, but if you don't have the app on your phone or can't be bothered to sign up for some alerts, you probably aren't meeting the standard discussed in posts above.

145

Bmd
ID: 825715
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 16:51

As a compromise we could amend the change to drop from 170->166. That should give any team more than enough space not to fall below the limits.

146

Khahan
ID: 18142310
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 17:10

I have the app on my phone and use it. But I honestly hate it. Its too small for my liking, too clumsy to use - simply put I prefer the computer and keyboard for league activity.

But that aside, what does that have to do with anything? BH - you have this attitude that there is only one way to do things - your way. And if we aren't doing it your way, it must be wrong. But that's just so much BS. Just today for example I was having text/email conversations with 3 different managers about trading some of my 1st basemen. And at various times thru out the day those conversations got put on hold for 20-40 mins at a time. I'm an insurance agent. I sit behind a desk most of the day. And when the phone rings or a customer comes in - fantasy baseball goes on hold and my attention goes to helping my customer.

I have alerts on my phone from espn from this league, from yahoo and from mlb. Some days it dings at me non-stop. But if I'm sitting down with a client or driving to a client or prospects house it doesn't matter. I'm not in a position to pay it any mind, nor would I think to do so in those situations. And this is exactly the kind of stuff people mean when they talk about the 'race to the keyboard' for injury replacements and position battles.

147

Judy
ID: 35493114
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 19:59

144
Yes I carry the iPhone, but do I check it every ten minutes?
No. I'm retired and don't have to check in on stuff.
It is off my person (in a daypack) probably 5/6 hours a day until I get home at night. I am out on a pickleball court (playing the world's most additive and fastest growing game nation wide) or in a place where I need to pay attention and phones must be silenced, like the movies or a meeting or a group activity.

Once home, I have my iPad to do the work, but it is often too late.
I haven't turned the actual computer on since last year and I won't turn it on until it is time to do taxes.

148

Judy
ID: 35493114
Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 20:03

145 I like the compromise 166 limit.

Last year I had a decent guy -- kelly johnson -- who could fill 4 positions not including DH/UTIL and I used him like crazy -- matchups be darned. I was trying for counting stats. Still didn't reach limits.

149

Species
ID: 46252312
Sat, Feb 04, 2017, 16:15

I still have not heard a compelling argument as to how lowering the GP cap improves our league/increases competition/ etc.

I am very confused by any points being made that in any way correlates our minimim GP with the maximum cap (ie post 142). The two issues are separate. The league has already voted via straw poll to keep our minimum limits. There appears to be a majority that would be in favor of the 2 demerit compromise.

There is no rule that states you have to meet or approach the 170 gp cap. It is a cap created as a maximum.

Right now there are only 3 managers remotely supporting it. There is more time for opinions, debate and consideration, but I want to see more support before putting it to a vote.

150

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Sat, Feb 04, 2017, 18:29

For GP Limit change Bean, Khanan, Judy and myself.
Against GP Limit change - Species

Everyone else hasn't really voiced their opinion. I don't understand why it's there. There has never been a good reason for it. It gives teams that are healthy an even bigger advantage. How is that confusing? Why is it in there in the first place? I have never heard a good argument FOR it in 10+ years. It was a high limit created by Ref and rfs. Both of which are no longer in this league. Can somebody present a good case for keeping it at 170?

I've never seen a fantasy league where the position limit is over 162. It makes zero sense. Why not just add a utility slot or a 4th outfielder?

151

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Sat, Feb 04, 2017, 18:32

Also, the change is pretty straight forward. I don't think there's needs to be some huge ground swelling of support for it to be voted on. If people don't want it then they'll just vote no or will abstain.

152

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Sat, Feb 04, 2017, 20:00

I still have not heard a compelling argument as to how lowering the GP cap improves our league/increases competition/ etc.

I agree. I'm not sure what lowering the cap will accomplish. Isn't the aspect people are having problems with really the floor?

A cap of 170 allows people to stream and leaves that as a viable strategy to gain an edge but doesn't allow for a runaway solely by streaming to accumulate stats. The issues people have had are with the demerits and too many people not coming close enough.
In rethinking my post 142 after reading Species comments I realized I really have no problem with the caps as they are. So I guess the question i should ask is not about caps but this - was 2016 an aberration in the number of managers who got demerits for not having enough 'activity' or is that pretty normal?

If 2016 was an aberration then I would say leave the floors in place - dont over-react to small sample sizes of data. But if that many managers are consistently falling short, I'd agree we need a change. But I know most (if not all) of the managers who fell short were in fact active during the season.

153

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Sun, Feb 05, 2017, 11:38

Prediction, no team falls below the limit this year. It's not hard to reach if you are aware it's there from the get go. That was the issue last year since it was our first year with it.

154

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Sun, Feb 05, 2017, 12:59

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT:

Thumper trades SP Rick Porcello to Khahan for SP Taijuan Walker and prospect 1B Greg Bird.

Khahan to post to confirm.

Idea behind the trade is I take on a couple high risk/reward young guys in hopes that one becomes a stud. Cost me the certainty of solid Porcello, but am looking to get younger and possibly find a team building block.

155

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Sun, Feb 05, 2017, 13:33

Confirmed 154. I have quite a few high risk, high reward players on my team, even after this deal. This consolidates them into a more stable and reliable, solid pitcher.

156

Bean
ID: 27592412
Sun, Feb 05, 2017, 14:13

For ALL of the managers who fell short of the minimum GP it was a decision on their part. They weighed the penalty for falling short against the benefit of hanging on to guys that, for whatever reason, were not every day players. It is a "strategy" to intentionally not meet minimums.

The demerits were applied for three reasons:

1) As an encouragement to remain active
2) As disincentive to intentional tanking through stockpiling players who aren't playing every day
3) As an adjustment to your "draft position" standing to compensate for the missed games

I believe it accomplishes all of these things very well.

I would like the minimum to go even higher, especially if the max is going to remain at 170.

157

Bean
ID: 27592412
Sun, Feb 05, 2017, 14:18

Oh one more reason, that is a crucial one.

IT MAKES THE MEASURE OF INACTIVITY UNAMBIGUOUS.

158

GO
ID: 17312218
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 10:17

Re:157
IT MAKES THE MEASURE OF INACTIVITY UNAMBIGUOUS.

Devils advocate checking in...

Cool. So if I just blindly rotate my UT slot all year to meet minimums, then I’m deemed “active” by the powers that be? Mind you, I’ll be hurting my OBP cause I am starting crap hitters, blowing up my ERA/WHIP because I’m starting garbage pitchers so either I lost points there or I lose points on demerits anyway. But hey, at least this way I’ll be “active” and there is no way it can be debated otherwise. And I can point to my GP/IP #’s in case someone accuses me of not being an active league member -- whether or not I chime in the thread league discussions… or worry about the quality of my lineup (it’s all about quantity, just roll something out there each day… start him, he might pinch hit and his 0-1 will get me GP)…. or respond to trades… or offer trades… or propose improvements to better the league.

Maybe we should make GP and IP a scoring category if it’s so damn important.

159

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 12:14

I don't know about other teams, but last year was the first year I had ever reached the GP minimum as assigned. The problem with the minimum is that if you played your starters, and they played every game (within reason ~150 GP), you can't reach the minimums. I shouldn't have to do what I did last year - play BOTH Reds catchers - in order to meet the minimums. If I have a set of 9 great players I want to play them and not have to worry about some other arbitrary number. In all my years of fantasy sports Ive never had to worry about something like that and I don't think I should have to.

We've been around and around on this - a very long discussion about it last fall. I thought then and I think now Guru's idea of a 2 demerit forgiveness is a good compromise.

160

Bean
ID: 27592412
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 13:24

"no way it can be debated otherwise"

Yup

161

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 14:38

What if this is a league where we aren't just expected to start our starters? I don't think G20 was founded on a set it and forget it mindset.

What if we taunted and embarrassed owners who weren't active enough? Ok, maybe that's pushing it.

162

Khahan
ID: 34115614
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 15:17

161 - this isn't a league where we are just expected to start our starters. We all agree on that. That's why many of us are in this league.

But this issue about the minimum games played - I'm starting to feel like I'm hitting my head against the brick wall.

We have 2 sides here:
1. Do away with it - its meant to force managers to stay active but many feel its a poor/artificial measure of activity that misses the mark and have given reasons why.

2. Keep min games played as a measure of activity because its a measure of activity.

This is the conversation we've been having since late 2015. Here is what I have yet to hear from the side who wants min games played - What makes it good measure of activity? Note: Not just a measure of activity, but a good, worthwhile measure of activity.

How does the side in favor counter the point that min games played is an incomplete measure of activity with no regards for quality of activity? Especially considering the fact that the whole issue arose over quality concerns?

I've also asked this question before, point blank, and have not gotten a direct answer*:
Are there truly managers in G20 that we have concerns over and if so, why are they still in G20?

*I did get a response to the second part of that from species from a commissioner perspective and understand that. But not a single other manager who wants a minimum games played has answered that direct question.

This issue keeps coming up to the forefront because 1 side hasn't had most of its concerns answered much less even addressed. Perhaps if some of these concerns were addressed and dealt with instead of just getting, "I want it my way for no reason than I think its good" those of us against the minimum would at least understand why its in place and be able to accept it.

I have no problem with some way to measure activity. But quality and kinds of activity must be taken into account. Its grossly lazy to boil activity down to a raw 'games played' number and completely ignore every other aspect that managers do to stay active.

163

Bmd
ID: 825715
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 16:24

We've had issues in the past. Minimums aren't perfect but better than any alternative. Most alternatives are very subjective and require a lot of commissioner work. Minimums are straight forward. If a team abuses those minimums by starting bad players intentionally or some other way then actions can be taken by the commissioner.

If you want an alternative suggest one. I've suggested many in the past but none have had any traction.

On the flip side, I'd love if we made a rule that new rules will only be voted on every four years. I feel like 90% of this leagues thread is endless rule discussions.

164

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 16:59

Khahan has a good point. What the minimums are trying (and IMO failing) to expose are managers who have abandoned their teams for one reason or another. I honestly believe nobody in this league is doing that, but if we wanted to get at the root of the problem, these are things to look for:

1. General roster moves.
2. Internal roster moves, particularly on Mondays and Thursdays. If a manager isn't making roster moves on those days, he or she is probably not making them at all.
3. DL players in starting slots.
4. Worse players in starting slots than bench slots. I'm not sure how that could be policed without the game site monitoring bench performance.

One way to monitor moves is if you assigned a $ cost for every roster move, internal or external, and gave everyone some impossible to reach number, like $10,000. I'm not sure if the game site allows for that, but it's a possible solution.

Assuming a manager has a great roster, 4 relievers, and 7 starters, you'd expect him to make about 5-10 moves a week at minimum.

166

Bean
ID: 27592412
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 17:35

<162> How many times do you have to be given the reasons we are in favor of it to not realize you have been given an answer? Seriously, the penalty, if you want to call it that, is to affect one thing and one thing only. YOUR DRAFT POSITION.

Without a rule against it, you can employ a strategy of not playing all of your GPs and you will enjoy a better draft position - I know you cant dispute that, no matter how much you want to point to non counting stats to deflect the reality.

Under the old way, you avoided commish scrutiny as long as you just put all available players against all available positions. You could very easily by stockpile guys who dont play, and the end result was you got better draft position and were technically within the rule of "active". The new way allows the commish to not have to constantly scrutinize our behavior and provides him an objective tool to encourage proper play of the game.

Anyway, when you have nobody to start on many days, because you have a stockpile of non-playing guys, you very simply are NOT EVEN PLAYING THE GAME THIS YEAR. Now tell me I am wrong.

167

darkside
ID: 81492120
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 20:51

I've always felt the minimums are there to keep rebuilding teams from stockpiling dudes that don't play and keeping managers from not even trying to 'compete' in the current year. At least, that was always my gripe. I'm not worried about people abandoning their teams, but plenty of managers don't try to play for the current year in any way and, IMO, that's a problem, and one that minimums deals with. I think the demerits forgiveness approach is a great compromise.

Also, so that I'm better at meeting the high standards of the league, I have to admit that life doesn't allow me the time necessary to manage my team on my own. Given that, I've gotten permission from Species to add a co-manager to team darkside of the moon.

Joining me is a seasoned fantasy manager who has the handle russelldl. Like me, he started lurking on the boards during the Smallworld years and has played in a number of gurupie leagues, including RIFC and RIBC (I think). He joined Tosh and mjd's AL/NL leagues a few years back and is excited to be a part of G20.

He is an equal partner in the team and can negotiate trades, make roster moves, etc. If he does anything, he speaks for both of us. So, please don't hesitate to contact both of us if you have any concerns about timeliness. He'll stop by soon to say howdy.

168

Tree
ID: 77532019
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 22:30

Maybe we should make GP and IP a scoring category if it’s so damn important.

i'd like to add "trades made" and "trades proposed " as categories. clearly, these measure activity, and are critical to the survival of the league.

by the GP standards, i was an inactive manager, but everyone here knows better.

that's why i loathe them.

169

Russelldl
ID: 18292416
Mon, Feb 06, 2017, 23:35

Hi folks,
Glad to be joining Darkside this year. I recognize quite a few of you from leagues we've been in together over the years. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to a good season.

170

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:50

163: On the flip side, I'd love if we made a rule that new rules will only be voted on every four years. I feel like 90% of this leagues thread is endless rule discussions.

Fair criticism. FWIW, the reason I pointed the league in this direction was twofold:

1) Better discussion of the actual ISSUE behind a rule change. With that we as a league can hopefully work out any unintended consequences, workarounds and exploits in advance.

2) I value getting feedback and getting straw poll counts to see if something really has traction before putting to a vote. Endless votes, even on seemingly innocuous issues is a pain in the ass.

I am just waiting for ESPN to launch so I can put our demerit and S+H issues to a vote (via email reminder to the league).

------------

russelldl -- welcome to G20! Make sure you get on darkside's Draftime account so you will be able to make picks on the website. As soon as ESPN launches their 2017 baseball site, I will add you to the team and you will have access there.

Upon the launch of ESPN Baseball, all teams must then execute their offseason trades officially. This will include, for some, cuts that need to be completed. Please do so with urgency.......many teams are seeking trades, and admittedly it has been a challenge with so many offseason trades.

171

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 11:11

Sorry to pile on more trades but...

Trade announcement:
Thumper sends prospect Dansby Swanson to WG for prospect JP Crawford.

WG to confirm

Goal here for me is getting my guy at the SS position who I expect will be an OBP master.

172

WG
ID: 35338278
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 11:19

Confirmed

173

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 11:26

Eh.......screw it. I will get the notice out when ESPN launches......but let's get these rule votes done and out of the way.

Call for League Vote:

1) Demerit System - Addition of forgiveness of 2 Demerits

As a compromise to the challenges of balancing rebuilds with the league's desire to insure both proper activity and competitive balance, it is proposed to add the following bolded language to the GP / IP minimums rule to allow for the forgiveness of the first two demerits in this system:

"Minimums for GP and IP:

A team must accumulate a minimum of 1375 GP by hitters over the course of a season. For each 15 games of shortfall, a team is assigned one demerit. Demerits will be integer values only. Thus, a team with 1-15 games of shortfall will receive one demerit, 16-30 will receive 2 demerits, etc.

A team must accumulate a minimum of 1200 IP over the course of a season. For every shortfall of 15 IP, a team is assigned one demerit. Demerits will be integer values only. Thus, a team with 1-15 IP of shortfall will receive one demerit, 16-30 will receive 2 demerits, etc.

GP and IP demerits will be combined for each team. The first 2 demerits of each team will be forgiven.

If a team finishes “in the money” for prize pool purposes (ranked 1-6), then demerits will be ignored. " etc.

Please vote YES or NO

2) Demerit System - Apply also to Prospect Draft

Currently the demerit system only applies draft pick position penalties to the Supplemental Draft. This proposal would also include penalizing teams by also lowering their standing in the Prospect Draft per the following bolded language:

"For lottery teams, the following penalties will be applied to every pick in the next year’s supplemental and prospect drafts:

If a team accumulates more than 10 demerits, then it will be removed from the lottery and assigned the 14th pick in all rounds (i.e., behind all lottery teams, but ahead of any prize pool teams.)

For teams with less than 10 demerits, that team is pushed forward one place in the supplemental and prospect draft rankings for each demerit. For example, if a team finishes in last place (20th) and has 5 demerits, then that team will be treated in the draft rankings as though it finished in 15th place (and the teams actually finishing in places 16-20 will each move down one place.)

If more than one lottery team has a demerit, then the lottery rankings will be successively applied starting with the worst finisher and then moving up to the next worst finisher, etc. "

Please vote YES or NO

3) Replace the Saves category with the sum of Saves plus Holds

This is self-explanatory overall, but the following clarifications regarding the calculation of holds:

- the awarding of a "Hold" is at the discretion of official scorekeepers, in keeping with the established rules in mlb.
- We use ESPN as our league site service. The recognition of holds must be done by the statistical service used by ESPN. If there is a conflict between what is seen in mlb boxscores, mlb.com or other statistical sites and ESPN, ESPN shall take priority.
- This vote assumes that ESPN can accommodate the category of Saves plus Holds. If ESPN cannot accommodate this category and this rule passes, we will have to re-vote to decide to change websites (which has a variety of effects, not the least bit being position eligibility rules) or drop the new rule.

Please vote YES or NO

174

Khahan
ID: 53133710
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 11:33

1. yes
2. no
3. yes

176

Bean
ID: 27592412
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 12:20

<173>
1 NO
2 YES
3 YES

177

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 12:36

1. Yes
2. No
3. No

178

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 12:39

1. abstain
2. abstain
3. No

179

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 13:30

** CLARIFICATION **

Even though I commented on this during our discussions, I neglected to clarify this in my call for the vote above.

For the Saves + Holds vote, it is proposed that the implementation of this rule would not take place until the 2019 season.

That is my condition in order to give those with premium closers the ability to get 2 years of the highest value out of their holdings.

180

Bmd
ID: 825715
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 13:30

No
No
No

181

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 13:31

1) Yes
2) No
3) No

182

youngroman
ID: 57047243
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 13:47

1. yes
2. yes
3. no

183

mjd
ID: 580182616
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 13:58

No
No
No

184

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 13:59

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

185

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 15:10

1. Yes - but seems like a bandaid.
2. No
3. No

186

Tosh
Leader
ID: 057721710
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 16:20

1. No
2. No
3. No

188

PeteN.
ID: 19721320
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 16:44

1. No
2. No
3. No

189

Khahan
ID: 31146715
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 16:46

BH - a vote has been called for. Can we stop stumping for one side or the other and let the vote go? Especially since the information you are using is completely worthless because you keep bringing up leagues that work with hold not holds+saves. If holdsy mcholds gets promoted to closer in a h+s leagues, he's still good to go. If his arm falls off - its the same issue ANY pitcher can face. Or his name is Bryan Shaw and he's too mediocre - just like Huston street or any other number of actual closers who will be bumped down in value because of a number of better options that become available. Your points are completely invalid for our league. And I think its safe to say that at this point nothing I say in favor or you say against will change anybody's opinion.

190

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 16:49

Fine fine. I'll delete the post.

191

darkside
ID: 2822316
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 16:52

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

192

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 18:15

1. No
2. Yes
3. No

193

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 20:04

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

194

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 22:00

Proposal 1 currently has 8 yes votes, 6 no votes and one neutral wuss.

Proposals 2 and 3 have been voted down. Both have 10 or more no votes. A positive majority of 11 or more is required.

195

GO
ID: 388562222
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 22:22

1) Yes
2) No
3) No

196

WG
ID: 35338278
Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 23:17

1) Yes
2) No
3) No

197

Judy
ID: 35493114
Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 07:14

Yes
No
Yes

198

Slizz
ID: 110271112
Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 09:02

1) no
2) no
3) yes

199

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 12:42

The demerit forgiveness rule has passed. I will amend the verbiage of the rule as outlined in post 173.

The other two rule proposals have been voted down.

I thank you for your attention........but now I would like to direct your attention to my proposed clarification of our prospect rules. Please note that what I am putting forth is not a change of the rules - at the very least as they have been administered - but a clarification designed (hopefully) to provide better clarity.

Opinions and suggestions - in the context of clarity of our existing rules - are appreciated.
---------------------------------

Prospect Rules:
The underlined key deadlines and procedures are completed in a linear fashion, one after the other.

Keeper Deadline:
At a time announced by the Commissioner, all managers must have no more than 3 keepers on their prospect list. This is the only point in time where teams must have 3 or fewer prospects.

Managers will announce what prospects they intend to keep on the prospect list, which prospects they are releasing, and (if applicable) which prospects they are calling up and releasing (see below).

All hitters must have less than 300 ABs and pitchers less than 110 IP or 40 GP to remain a prospect. Otherwise, they must be moved to your active roster or released. Managers must monitor their own prospects. If they are later to have found to be over the max. at that deadline, the player will be immediately removed as a prospect and put on waivers.

Owning another team's prospect pick has no bearing on the above.

Assignment of Prospect Picks:
After declaration of kept, released or called up prospects, Managers are assigned new prospect picks dependent upon how many prospects they kept - with the total sum of kept prospects and new picks limited to a total of 3. Specifically:

- If you keep 3 prospects, you receive no new picks
- If you keep 2 prospects, you receive your 1st round prospect pick
- If you keep 1 prospect, you receive your 1st and 2nd round prospect picks
- If you keep no prospects, you receive your 1st, 2nd and 3rd round prospect picks

If an owner has traded away one of their prospect picks, they must reduce their kept prospects below three in order to comply with the terms of their trade. See "if you have traded away a pick", below.

Owning another team's prospect pick has no bearing on the above.

End of Keeper Deadline Activity:
Upon the completion of the keeper deadline and the assignment of picks, managers may then exceed three prospects by trade.

Processing of Traded Prospect Picks:
After the assignment of picks, the league will officially process all traded picks:
If you have traded away a pick: As noted above, any team that has traded away a pick must comply with the terms of their trade. This means that the number of prospects you are allowed to keep is reduced by the number of prospect picks you have traded away. As with any trade, if an owner trades away a pick in a round that they do not own, the receiving party receives a pick of a higher round to satisfy their trade.
If you have traded for a pick: Acquired picks are only used as picks in the Prospect Draft. The owning of another team's pick in no way alters the number of prospect keepers you may have, nor does it effect the assignment of your own prospect picks.

Prospect Draft:
The Prospect Draft will be held during the preseason after keepers are finalized (but before the Supplemental Draft). Drafts will be in inverse order of the final standings of the previous year and will not snake. A "NBA style" lottery will determine the top three selections. The lottery for the following season will be completed within 30 days of the end of regular season. Picks 4 - 20 and all picks in subsequent rounds will be in inverse order and will not snake. Players will be selected on our thread at rotoguru.com if possible. If that site is down, our draft will continue on the bulletin board of our page if we have knowledge of all picks selected previously. Ties will be broken by a dice roll. There will be up to 3 rounds.

A draft-eligible prospect is defined as a hitter that has less than 150 Major League at bats or a pitcher with less than both 55 Major League innings pitched and 20 Major League games pitched. Further, to be eligible, the player must be a professional baseball player, defined as one of the following:

- Under contract with a MLB teams system. This does not require them to have been assigned to a minor league team at the time of the draft.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Japans Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB) league.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Koreas Korean Baseball Organization (KBO) league.
- A professional player playing in/having played in Cuba's top professional league, the Serie Nacional.

Amateur players in High School, College or otherwise subject to the Rule 4 draft are not eligible.

There will be a 3 hour per pick clock and a 4 hour cumulative clock to draft. If you are skipped, you may make your selection at any time. Time will not accrue from midnight to 8 am ET, though anyone may select during that time if their pick is up. Once the draft concludes, the only way to add a prospect is via trade or future drafts. After the draft, you may bring this player on your active roster at any time (as long as hes in the ESPN database) by dropping a player.

Prospect callup rules: Managers may call-up and then send down their prospect up to two times without losing their rights as a prospect as long as that player has not hit the maximum ABs/IP/GP threshold. Once a commish allows the call-up, he will add the number of times that player has been called-up next to his name in the Prospect List below. At the end of the season, all prospects on the roster will be considered optioned so they wont have to be counted as a keeper so long as they have not hit their threshold. Before a commish will option or send-down a prospect, he will look at the stats for that player including games played that day if the lineup freeze has passed. If a prospect is renounced or hits his threshold while on your roster (called up), his name will be removed from your prospect list.

200

Bmd
ID: 825715
Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 21:01

Looks good.

201

mjd
ID: 580182616
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 15:37

I appreciate the clarity on the prospect rules. I never had a problem with the rules, just the ambiguity.

Much clearer now, thanks.

202

Bean
ID: 27592412
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 16:12

If I understand this correctly, if you trade for a prospect pick, it would be a waste of one of your original picks. So, you might as well give your third pick to your trade partner.

Is there any scenario where this isnt true?

203

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 16:39

202: Incorrect, but I see where that could be a viewpoint. The rule states:

Managers are assigned new prospect picks dependent upon how many prospects they kept - with the total sum of kept prospects and new picks limited to a total of 3

I could see how it could be interpreted in the way you mention. But later in that section of the rule I clarify that Owning another team's prospect pick has no bearing on the above.

That said, I could add something in the original quoted line to the effect of:

"Managers are assigned new prospect picks dependent upon how many prospects they kept - with the total sum of kept prospects and new picks (of their own) limited to a total of 3."

Would that add clarity?

204

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 16:51

202: And in the "Processing of Traded Prospect Picks" section, I have this language that I think further clarifies:

If you have traded for a pick: Acquired picks are only used as picks in the Prospect Draft. The owning of another team's pick in no way alters the number of prospect keepers you may have, nor does it effect the assignment of your own prospect picks.

206

Bean
ID: 27592412
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 17:28

Tell me if i have this right:

Player A trades his 1st prospect pick to Player B
Player B does not give Player A his 3rd Prospect pick in exchange

If the nothing changes before the deadline then:
Player A can only keep two prospect picks/prospects
Player B can only keep three prospect picks/prospects

If I have this right, why would Player A not ask for Player B's 3rd prospect pick? Its just going to waste.

207

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 18:23

Bean, there's another part to that.

Player A can only keep two prospects and/or make two picks
Player B can only keep three prospects, but can make up to four picks.

208

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 18:23

Big thanks to Species for taking time to clarify this. And also thanks to Bean and others for helping work through stuff.

209

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 18:52

206: Player A trades his 1st prospect pick to Player B
Player B does not give Player A his 3rd Prospect pick in exchange

If the nothing changes before the deadline then:
Player A can only keep two prospect picks/prospects
Player B can only keep three prospect picks/prospects

The Player A scenario is correct. By trading away a prospect pick, Player A may only keep as many as 2 prospects.

The Player B scenario is incorrect. Remember, the process for the keeper deadline, assignment of picks and the processing of traded picks is done in a linear fashion:

Keeper Deadline: Player B can keep as many as 3 prospects. His ownership of Player A's 1st round pick has no bearing on this process.

Assignment of Picks: Depending upon how many prospects Player B kept, he will be awarded his own new prospect picks so that the sum of his kept prospects plus his own new prospect picks equals 3. His ownership of Player A's 1st round pick has no bearing on this process.

Processing of Traded Picks: After the assignment of new prospect picks, then the league processes the traded picks. In your example, Player B ends up with:

1) Either a prospect or his 3rd rounder
2) Either a prospect or his 2nd rounder
3) Either a prospect or his 1st rounder
4) Player A's 1st rounder

Let's use Meatwads as an example. He currently owns Barreto and Fox. For the sake of discussion, at the keeper deadline if he does nothing and keeps those two, he ends up with:

1) Barreto
2) Fox
3) His own first round pick

THEN all of his trades come into play. He owns two picks from Fosten and one from Khahan, and will end up with:

1) Barreto
2) Fox
3) His own first round pick
4) Khahan's first round pick
5) Fosten's first round pick
6) Fosten's second round pick

......and have SIX prospects when the prospect draft is done. This is perfectly legal. He has until the March 2018 deadline to get to 3 prospects or less.

210

Judy
ID: 35493114
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 18:57

Much cleaner and clearer!

Thank you!!

211

Bmd
ID: 825715
Thu, Feb 09, 2017, 19:41

Species is The Boss! Thanks!

212

Bean
ID: 27592412
Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 00:52

OK i think i get it now. Not sure I would know how to make that clear in the Constitution without examples.

213

PeteN.
ID: 8550318
Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 08:17

Looks great Species. Thanks!

214

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 12:06

Species, thanks for the amended language. Now, has any consideration been given to changing the rule?

Wish I could acquire a p-pick this off-season to cover the 2 p-slots I traded away. To prevent hoarding, simply make it so teams can only reacquire slots to get back up to 3, but still can keep no more than 3 prospects at deadline.

This proposal would allow teams with less than 3 p-slots to build back up to 3 p-slots via trade. Any thoughts on whether this would lead to unintended consequences?

215

Nerfherders
ID: 2211442615
Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 13:25

Another way of wording it:

At the start of the prospect draft, a team may only have as many combination of prospects and his own prospect picks as totals to 3. However, a team may trade for more prospect picks from other teams at the detriment of those other teams' totals, so that the total number of prospects never goes above 60. So that:

A team may trade all three of it's prospect picks and have 0 prospects.

A team may trade for three prospect picks and have as many as 6 prospects after the draft, and keep them until the next prospect keeper deadline, where he must be again at a total of 3.

216

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 13:59

First off, thanks for the feedback on the re-wording of our Prospect Rules as they stand now. Once ESPN gets off their asses (how does a multi-billion conglomerate need a week to launch a game?) and gets the site back up, I will implement this re-wording (and the 2 demerit forgiveness) into our Constitution. This will give us a new base from which to consider any future Prospect Rule changes.....

----------------------------------

214/215: While we wrapped up most of the loose ends in terms of rules discussions, it is still okay to bring up other rule changes. I tried to steer the discussion on the Prospect Rule changes, but there wasn't a clear singular proposal.

If I am understanding you correctly, what you are asking for is the ability to substitute your own prospect "slots" - which I am defining as slots able to hold your own keepers for the keeper deadline - with picks from other teams instead. Is that accurate?

Fosten is obviously a good example. He currently has:

Zimmer
Berrios
Martes

......but has traded away his 1st and 2nd round picks. As the rules stand now, he will only be able to keep 1 prospect in order to fulfill his trade with Meatwads.

So, the thought is: if Fosten traded for another team's pick, could that be used in place of your traded pick so you could keep more than one prospect? Is that what you are getting at?

217

Tree
ID: 77532019
Fri, Feb 10, 2017, 14:24

yeesh...i don't check in for a few days and miss a ton, including a vote. ack. FWIW, the way it went is the way i would have voted..sorry for being AWOL.

218

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Sun, Feb 12, 2017, 10:58

@216: I personally would like to be able to keep a prospect in a traded pick. The appeal in trading for a prospect now, pre-deadline, is less due to having to also trade away the opportunity cost of that pick. Therefore, t would have to be an agreement for once the deadline passes... I suppose the same applies to MLB keepers as well in terms of trading a player and keeper slot pre deadline

219

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Sun, Feb 12, 2017, 13:21

I feel it simply makes sense that we be able to use picks we traded for to keep prospects with 1 caveat - prospects always go in our own slots first.

This does one major thing - Keeps the value of trading for high picks (I dont want to trade for another teams first round pick only to lose it to having a prospect slotted in there).

It also serves as a guide for how prospects are slotted into picks so we dont get shenanigans with assigning keepers to give us jumped up pick orders.

One question this raises - does allowing us to use other teams picks for prospects allow us to keep more than 3?

220

darkside
ID: 81492120
Sun, Feb 12, 2017, 21:01

Thanks for the continued leadership and effort, Species!

221

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 09:52

This does one major thing - Keeps the value of trading for high picks (I dont want to trade for another teams first round pick only to lose it to having a prospect slotted in there).

So, you want the receiver of a 2nd round pick to have the worse option (has to use the 1st on keeper)? Doesn't feel right to me. Am I missing something?

222

Khahan
ID: 26115139
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 10:16

221 - I went back and forth on this and just got confused thinking about it abstractly. So I'm going to put some examples out there:

I have all my picks and 3 keepers and I acquire a second round pick. We'd slot the keepers into round 3, round 2, and round 2. I traded for a second round pick but actually got round 1 value from it. Under my proposal, we'd slot them into round 3, my round 2, my round 1. I traded for a second round pick and got a second round pick.

I have all 3 keepers and trade for a first round pick that is lower than mine (I have pick 1.5 and I trade for pick 1.10). We slot them into round 3, round 3 and 1.10. I essentially traded up 5 slots. If we slot them into my own picks we slot them into round 3, round 2 and 1.5. I traded for pick 1.10 and got pick 1.10.

I have 3 keepers, all 3 picks and trade for a round 1 pick higher than mine. Either way they get slotted into my own round 3, 2 and 1 and the pick value I traded for the is the same.

It gets a little trickier when I've traded away picks and acquired picks. I think at that point we are just slotting them into the latest picks for any overflow.

I don't see forcing them into our own slots as a 'worse' choice. I see it as preserving value and avoiding unwarranted upgrades in value. By putting the keepers in our own slots first, you are neither losing nor creating value from where you started.

223

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 11:07

It is definitely a worse choice - I'd rather have a 1st rounder than a 2nd, personally. If you disagree, let's talk trade.

I do see your point about the pick not actually having the value it was traded for but 1. it means different owners will value the picks in different ways, encouraging trading and 2. worrying about slots just adds to prospect complexity, and I think every G20 owner can agree that prospects being less complex is a good thing.

224

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 11:21

(first line of previous post is all in jest - I appreciate having this conversation)

225

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 12:56

I don't really understand what you are trying to do Khahan. Are you trading your 1.5 for a 1.10? If you have 3 keepers you can't use either.

226

Khahan
ID: 26115139
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 13:44

Nerf - BH and I were discussing various scenarios that could play out if we allow traded for picks to be used to name keepers. But I was suggesting that we have to use our own picks up first before we can use traded for picks (see post 219).

BH raised a good point about the value of traded picks being affected by my proposal. I was just showing, from my perspective, how I felt they would be unchanged.

227

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 14:30

Nerf's example is also relevant here. If I have a 3rd prospect but pick 3.01, I should definitely try to trade for 3.20 and something else.

Also relevant in the S draft. (COMMERCIAL FORTHCOMING). I don't have a 13th or 14th, and need to use my 12th for De Leon. So I'll upgrade your 14th to a 12th if you upgrade my 9th to an 8th, or something like that.

228

Khahan
ID: 26115139
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 15:36

I think I see what Nerf is asking. In my one example I'm stating I have pick 1.5 but trade for 1.10. I'm just showing that I have the regular round 1 pick and I trade for an additional round 1 pick to illustrate how forcing us to use our original keeper slots first under the proposed rule change prevents us from gaining an unintended edge in deals. That particular example shows how I break even in value for the pick I traded for.

229

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 15:42

re: 214. Consider this unfavorable scenario: 1st and 2nd round p-picks get swapped in a trade. Seemingly, under the current rules, both team would lose a p-slot.

230

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 16:28

231

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 16:52

Right, but if you had a p-keeper, going from 3.12 to 3.05 nets you literally nothing.

232

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 18:23

Perhaps there is a nuance to the prospect rules I am still not grasping. If you trade for an extra 1st round pick, you get to make that pick at the expense of the other team's keepers. So in an extreme example if I had three keepers at 1.12, 2.12, 3.12 and traded for all of another team's prospect picks, at, say, the 5th slot, my picks are canceled out by my keepers, but then I got to use all three at the 5th slot. That's not really gaming the system. I'd presumably be paying more for that higher pick.

All of this is accurate.

If the discussion is going to continue on the possibility of using another team's prospect pick to protect your own, I would like us to build from the base of the existing rules and augment from there. Specifically:

1) I think all teams must still use THEIR OWN picks first and foremost to protect their own keepers. No picking-and-choosing what pick protects what keeper.

2) When you are short of your own picks to protect your keepers, if we are going to allow this, I want to understand what the cost of using a replacement pick is -- is it a 1st only??

3) Are you allowed to keep more than 3 prospects? If so, is the cost of doing THAT any different than substituting your pick for someone else's?

4) IMO we need to keep "the rule of 60" -- as has been said, for any team that gets the benefit of an extra pick, another team has given up the right to one of their prospects so that the maximum that can ever be held is 60 prospects.

Khahan / Nerf / whomever -- I am happy to guide you, but it is up to you to champion perspective verbiage and get to the nitty gritty of what you would like the league to consider.

233

Bmd
ID: 825715
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 21:29

Just sounds extra complicated. I know once it's understood it's easy but with 20 owners I feel like not 3 months goes by and someone is misinterpreting our current rules. Add another layer and I think the added fun factor isn't worth the headaches involved with confusion of the rules and reexplaining.

234

Judy
ID: 35493114
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 22:10

I am going on vacation this week, will only be able to check in at night MDT.

I know my keepers and my #1 prospect pick already.

Where do we post that stuff so I don't get left behind. Shoot an email if I seem to forget, please.

235

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Mon, Feb 13, 2017, 23:13

Judy, unless you plan on going on vacation for a month, you should be fine. Enjoy!

236

Bmd
ID: 825715
Tue, Feb 14, 2017, 19:54

Looking to trade 10.02 and my 2018 11th round pick for your 2018 8th round pick and your last pick in 2017.

237

Bmd
ID: 825715
Wed, Feb 15, 2017, 10:28

Above proposal is flexible. Basically looking to trade for a late pick this year.

238

VampireWeekend
ID: 538552113
Wed, Feb 15, 2017, 15:51

Missed out on an opening this year...if anyone is looking for a co-manager, would appreciate an opportunity to join forces.

239

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Feb 15, 2017, 17:21

Finally..........ESPN launched their 2017 game and the league is renewed and open for business for 2017. There is now some business to attend to:

1) I have refreshed the constitution, instituting the two demerit forgiveness rule as approved by league vote.

2) I have refreshed the rules regarding our prospects / keepers / prospect picks / etc. As discussed above, it is a re-write of our existing practices that hopefully are more clear and easy to follow.

3) I updated a couple of prospects that have changed hands.

4) I think all of the trades are in there now. Please double-check.

5) VERY IMPORTANT: Please process all of your offseason trades immediately through ESPN!

This is critical, as continued trade talks really require that we all can see what all managers have on their rosters after this awesome, active offseason.

Thanks.

240

Bean
ID: 27592412
Wed, Feb 15, 2017, 18:40

Per your e-mail, I have dropped Brad Peacock, and look forward to having Maeda added to my active roster.

241

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Wed, Feb 15, 2017, 19:47

I have the trade offer out to GO. Once that is processed I can take the next step for the trades with Thumper.

Also as part of my trade with GO I had to drop 2 players. i dropped Bregman and Bell off my roster since they are protected minor league assets and they'll just be 10th keepered later this spring.

242

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Feb 15, 2017, 20:02

Per our rules:

At the end of the season, all prospects on the roster will be considered optioned so they wont have to be counted as a keeper so long as they have not hit their threshold.

To that end, the following players have been removed from their respective team's active rosters and "sent down" to their prospect lists:

Josh Bell and Alex Bregman (Khahan)
Roman Quinn (shows as SS - wth?) and Robert Stephenson (Judy)

Both teams retain their rights as prospects.

243

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Feb 16, 2017, 09:38

I'm pretty sure Quinn will be updated (OF only) as the season approaches. They did it with Gallo last year.

244

Judy
ID: 35493114
Sat, Feb 18, 2017, 15:18

Quinn to stay prospect
Stephenson to be 10th Keeper

245

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 09:33

Today's trade with Slizz:

Guru gets Oh plus 2017 supplemental pick 14.19 from slizz
Slizz gets Blanton plus 2017 supplemental pick 4.18 from Guru

247

slizz
ID: 30137218
Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 09:38

Confirmed!

248

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Feb 22, 2017, 11:02

Time to get our deadlines in order.

We have the general gist of our timeline pretty well set......and there has never been much of a call to alter it. And by that I mean the pauses between deadlines have historically been enough for teams to get their draft boards arranged, etc.

To that end, I submit the following as our proposed deadlines for this year:

- Keepers due March 13th, Noon
- Prospect Keepers due March 14th, Noon
- Prospect Draft March 15th, Noon
- Supplemental Draft opens March 18th
- Supplemental Draft clock starts March 20th, 9am

Please advise if you have any concerns with this timeline. Thanks.

PS: Post 245 -- noted

249

Judy
ID: 35493114
Wed, Feb 22, 2017, 17:07

Timelines look good. Is it all done on this thread? Or do we use draftime for the supp draft?

I am ready to declare keepers and prospects and to make my first prospect pick whenever the links open up!

251

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Feb 22, 2017, 17:51

249: A good reminder for our new Manager:

- Keepers are posted in a separate thread on this forum. Just seems early to do so now :)

- Prospect keepers are posted in a separate thread on this forum.

- Prospect draft is completed via slow draft on a separate thread in this forum.

- Supplemental Draft will be completed on Draftime. Thumper is already signed up, I have entered the base draft order and have all of the traded picks up-to-date.

I will probably get those keeper threads up a week or so into March.

252

Judy
ID: 35493114
Thu, Feb 23, 2017, 22:29

Did you send out a draftime password to enter the draft. I signed in to draftime, but need to sign into our draft...

I am out of the loop except for nights march 2-5, 7 and 10-12...just trying to get stuff set up.

253

Species
ID: 46252312
Fri, Feb 24, 2017, 01:32

252: The draft has been renewed. I have input the keeper order as well as all of the trades to date.

But until the keeper deadline I cannot enter keepers, so I cannot open the draft. Queues would be near useless since keepers are not final.

So, there is nothing that you need to do at this point. As a renewed draft, all of the existing managers (save for Thumper in place of Jaydog, which has been completed) are already in place. Once I open the draft it will show available on Draftime for you.

254

darkside
ID: 81492120
Fri, Feb 24, 2017, 23:16

Thanks for keeping things rolling, Species!

255

GO
ID: 388562222
Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 00:03

I'd also like to welcome Judy!

256

Judy
ID: 35493114
Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 18:16

GO. Huh? Been here a while...

257

GO
ID: 388562222
Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 20:40

A joke relating to the way Species responded to 249. You asked a bunch of questions and then Species laid things out for the new manager. Depending on how you read it....

258

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 21:50

Trade announcement!

Thumper sends 4th round 2017 supplemental draft pick to darkside for Max Kepler.

One of the darkside managers to post to confirm.

259

darkside
ID: 2822316
Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 23:38

Confirmed. Thanks for the trade!

260

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 10:41

Okay, you will all notice that I have put the keeper threads up a little early. That said, we are only 2 weeks away from our deadlines, so it is definitely time to get those last minute trade discussions going!!

Best of luck.

261

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 11:39

Looking to upgrade Zach Britton as a keeper, or keep someone worse and get pick value.

Also looking to deal Rafael Devers, Bobby Bradley, and prospect / supp picks for value, preferably post-keepers.

262

slizz
ID: 30137218
Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 13:21

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT

Slizz trades 2017 s-draft 3.19

Nerfherders trades the rights to Anderson Espinoza, SP, SD.

As a result of the trade, Nerfherders now has pick 1.04 in the 2017 prospect draft and can retain both Bellinger and Frazier.

263

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Tue, Feb 28, 2017, 13:28

Confirmed

264

Khahan
ID: 125116
Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 17:05

*****TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT*****

Khahan sends his round 3 pick (Pick 3.11) to Meatwads
Meantwads send Dallas Keuchel and his round 12 pick (pick 12.6) to Khahan.

I'd had a few managers making me offers for a last keeper slot. Many of them were good offers and reasonable. But I don't think any of them really gave me enough value over my last weak keeper to justify moving a pick. When managers started posting their keepers here I saw some names I liked and looked them up. Here is Keuchel's projected stat line (composite from multiple projection sites):
14W 182K (212 IP) 3.52 era 1.19 whip.

Doubt I'll find those stats in round 3 of a draft this deep and I really doubt he'd fall to pick 11. He's head and shoulders above the 3 guys I was considering for my last keeper slot. While he and Porcello may be no clayton Kershaw I think I've improved the lower end of my keeper list to something resembling worthwhile keepers.

265

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 17:14

Nice trade! Seems a worthy gambit for a pitcher of his skill level......not an outrageous price but an okay return to Meatwads as well.

266

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 17:32

@264 - Confirmed.

I've had a couple inquiries on Keuchel this offseason and was holding out hope for a late prospect pick. As we got closer to the keeper deadline, I realized an s-pick upgrade was the market for him. I think it's a nice pickup by Khahan, and I could see a strong bounce back from Keuchel.

I traded my 1st and 2nd s-picks already, so it doesn't hurt to get a little more ammo. Anyone who's looking to make trades during the drafts, come see me. All of my s-picks will be on the block during the draft. I might even have a prospect pick available.

267

slizz
ID: 22234211
Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 12:34

An addendum to my Espinoza deal:

I will receive Nerf's 2017 s-draft 14.3

268

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 13:58

Razzball just put out their Top 100 Keepers

67. David Price
68. Todd Frazier
69. Adam Eaton
70. Adam Duvall
71. Jackie Bradley Jr.
72. Joc Pederson
73. Javier Baez
74. Byron Buxton

#70 is available for an s-pick upgrade.

269

bmd
ID: 481162721
Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 00:02

Looking to trade 10.02 and my 2018 11th round pick for your 2018 9th round pick and your last pick in 2017.

Also open to other supplemental swaps(trading away a 2017 pick for a 2018 pick).

270

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 11:44

* Trade Announcement *

bmd receives:

2017 14.20
2018 9th

Species receives

2017 10.02
2018 11th

271

Bmd
ID: 825715
Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 13:19

Confirm.

272

Bean
ID: 27592412
Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 13:35

Trade Block

Matt Holiday
Curtis Granderson
Lucas Duda
Andrelton Simmons

Perhaps you can use these, available for mid to late round pick upgrades

273

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 06, 2017, 12:31

One week to go!!!

Keeper threads are up!

PLEASE MARK YOUR KEEPERS ON ESPN!

- Keepers due March 13th, Noon
- Prospect Keepers due March 14th, Noon
- Prospect Draft March 15th, Noon
- Supplemental Draft opens March 18th
- Supplemental Draft clock starts March 20th, 9am

274

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Mar 06, 2017, 13:35

Who wants Cam Bedrosian?

From ESPN:

With Huston Street (arm) being shut down for 3-4 weeks, Bedrosian (groin) becomes the frontrunner for the Opening Day closing job.

Spin: Bedrosian was considered the biggest threat to Street's closer role heading into camp, so he immediately becomes the favorite now that the latter has been shut down for the majority of spring training. He will still have to earn the role this spring, as Andrew Bailey is also gunning for the position and has experience closing games in the past. Bedrosian has been dealing with a minor groin injury, but he should be making his Cactus League debut in the coming days. The hard-throwing righty has tremendous upside as a closer after bursting onto the scene with a 1.12 ERA and 11.4 K/9 in 40.1 innings last season.

275

slizz
ID: 22234211
Mon, Mar 06, 2017, 15:00

Trade announcement:

GO trades pick 2017 s-draft pick 4.08 to Team Slizz in exchange for Domingo Santana, OF, MIL and 2017 s-draft 14.03

276

GO
ID: 17312218
Mon, Mar 06, 2017, 19:22

Confirmed.

Looking to buy 1-2 keeper leftovers so feel free to email me keeper caliber leftovers along with their round price tag.

277

PeteN.
ID: 19721320
Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 02:19

Hey all. Going forward, my rotoguru handle will be ttucowboy.

278

Tree
ID: 77532019
Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 11:09

exploring options with moving Tim Anderson or Elvis Andrus.

email me if interested.

279

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 17:10

Can people who are looking for leftover keeps please post here? Hard to figure out who's addin' and who's subtractin'

280

mjd
ID: 580182616
Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 17:47

Adding

281

Khahan
ID: 51116166
Tue, Mar 07, 2017, 18:16

Wouldn't mind adding 1 keeper. At a reasonable price.

282

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 11:32

I have some mildly intriguing leftovers that could be had pretty cheaply.

Austin Hedges - C
David Peralta - OF
Dexter Fowler - OF
Jeremy Hellickson - SP
Greg Holland - RP

283

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 13:26

I'm involved in some serious talks to trade Chris Davis, post keepers. If anyone is interested in his services, now is the time to send me an email or text.

As for the general value, I'm asking for an elite prospect and a second piece, ideally a future prospect pick. I'd also be open to a young player instead of the pick, as long as I view him as a viable keeper going forward.

I'm also open to similar offers for Buster Posey, though I am more flexible with him.

284

Tree
ID: 77532019
Wed, Mar 08, 2017, 18:23

meatwads - shoot me an email?

285

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 16:46

She can kill with a smile, she can wound with her eyes
She can ruin your faith with her casual lies
And she only reveals what she wants you to see
She hides like a child but he's always Peter to me

She can lead you to love, she can take you or leave you
She can ask for the truth but she'll never believe you
And she'll take what you give her as long as it's free
Yeah she steals like a thief but he's always Peter to me

286

slizz
ID: 22234211
Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 19:00

ttucowboy*

287

slizz
ID: 22234211
Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 20:20

ttucowboy*

288

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 10:33

Trade Announcement

Great One receives:
- Jake Odorizzi
- Cam Bedrosian
- 2017 14.17

BH receives
- 2017 3.08

289

GO
ID: 17312218
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 11:10

Confirmed

As if now I am keeping Paxton or Brantley as a last keeper. Anyone with interest in them cheap let me know. Or if you have a leftover who is a significant upgrade over either....

290

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 13:31

In addition to looking to trade Sonny Gray, Duvall, Gattis, Tulowitzki, and Cody Allen, I'm looking to make some post-keeper trades. Basically, you keep the guy, and then I give you some stuff to get him from you.

I'd love to get keeper-level SP, OF, SS, and closer. Can offer any of my S picks, some P picks, or prospects - De Leon, Devers, and Bradley. Email me if you have any ideas.

291

WG
ID: 35338278
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 14:20

Looking to trade Dansby Swanson, SS, Atl for some post keeper help myself. Primarily looking for an older piece or two that can help now. Can move Swanson pre keep also but he's a 10th keeper so would move for less post keep. Let me know, thanks.

293

Tree
ID: 77532019
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 15:14

Gotten a few offers on Anderson and Andrus, but still fielding them.

let me know...

294

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 15:23

Thanks Khahan, I think it's worth making sure this is clarified for the entire league and that people are aware of it and accepting of it.

To be clear, I am talking about fair, balanced trades. You could trade for Mike Trout now, but then you'd have to use one of your 9 keeper slots on him. Or, you could trade him after the keeper deadline for much more, and still get to keep 9 other players.

This is certainly within the rules (since there's no moratorium on trading at any point, except trade deadline to end of season), and not even immoral, since the trade needs to be fair and balanced.

I could see more objection if there were two trades involved here, but I'd say that if each trade stood alone fairly, that would be acceptable too.

295

Khahan
ID: 462391013
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 15:55

I could see more objection if there were two trades involved here

Ahh, see that is how I was interpreting the original message - that there would be a trade now to move a player now before keepers. Another manager keeps him, then you trade back and that manager gets picks or another player to compensate for using his keeper slot.

Thank you for the clarification on that one BH. I take it now from the quoted part above you do not intend to do this. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the clarification.

296

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 15:58

Ok great. Again, thanks for bringing it up. I have a couple bites on this, so if anyone else is looking for clarification, now's the time to talk.

297

Khahan
ID: 462391013
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 16:19

In fact since you clarified and I don't actually have any objections I'm just removing post 292 to avoid confusion.

298

Species
ID: 46252312
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 19:44

Awwwwww man! Bring back Khahan's rant. Missed it.

299

Khahan
ID: 51116166
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 21:18

Hah. Wasn't much of a rant. But I kind of cast BH in a negative light he didn't deserve.

300

mjd
Dude
ID: 501381415
Sat, Mar 11, 2017, 22:53

Trade Announcement

mjd gets Robby Ray, P, AZ
slizz 2018 S-14th rd

slizz gets mjd 2018 S-3rd Rd

301

GO
ID: 388562222
Sat, Mar 11, 2017, 23:30

Does it annoy anyone else on the ESPN app that when you filter -- and select 7 days or Research or whatever that it doesn't automatically just pick it up, but rather you then have to also hit the back button to apply it.

302

Blue hen
ID: 410452818
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 10:18

Last minute: Troy Tulowitzki, Cody Allen, or Adam Duvall for your 8th rounder. Email me.

303

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:00

288 blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Mar 10, 2017, 10:33 Trade Announcement

Great One receives:
- Jake Odorizzi
- Cam Bedrosian
- 2017 14.17

BH receives
- 2017 3.08
-------------------------

bh traded his 14th three times. WG, Meatwads and GO.

- WG trade was first (6/22/16) so he gets the 14th
- Meatwads next (1/28/17) so he gets bh's 13th
- GO above so he gets bh's 12th

304

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:07

Pretty sure my intent was last rounder, and I'm fine with those moves.

305

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 12:51

The keeper deadline has passed. The following numbnuts all neglected to enter their keepers on ESPN:

slizz
Bean
WG
Tree
Nerfherders

Per our rules, I am allowed to invalidate one keeper per team. Say adios to Carlos Correa, Aroldis Chapman, Bryce Harper, Edwin Encarnacion and Max Scherzer. Sure am glad I got the 4th overall pick!

306

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 12:56

......I really wish I could do 305.

Maybe for future penalties the offenders have to do all of the draft input for us.

Geez guys......come on.......it is a simple thing. You should be ashamed of yourselves!

* Trade Announcement *

Species gets Craig Kimbrel
Meatwads gets Species' 2018 1st round Prospect Pick

307

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 13:20

Species shames us and announces a post-keeper trade in the same message! Lol

Double shame confirmed.

308

Khahan
ID: 512201311
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 13:45

Shame.

Shame.

Shame.

Shame.

Shame.

Shame.

309

Blue hen
ID: 410452818
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 14:05

Trade Announcements

#1

Thumqer receives:
Jose De Leon (prospect)
2017 1.17p
2018 BH 1st prospect

BH receives
Chris Archer
Matt Kemp
Marcus Semien

#2

Tosh receives:
Rafael Devers (prospect)
1.07 (from Meatwads), 1.17, 2.17, 3.17

BH receives:
Jose Bautista
Jesus Colome
Tosh's 2nd round 2017 prospect
13.15 and 14.15 (I think those are his last two picks)

310

Blue hen
ID: 410452818
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 14:08

Err, Alex

311

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 15:15

Confirmed. In a coinciding move I'm adding Jose de Leon as a 10th keeper and will post it on the prospect board

312

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 15:33

311: Looks good Thumpqer. All of your assumptions about your picks are accurate.

313

Tree
ID: 77532019
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 17:32

the following numbnuts all neglected to enter their keepers on ESPN:

nope. i totally did. if it didn't take on ESPN, blame those guys.

314

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 17:34

Trade Announcement

Revised deal between BH and Tosh, replacing the one above:

Tosh receives:
1.07, 1.17, 2.17, 3.17 & 6.17

BH receives:
Bautista, Colome, 8.13, 13.13 and 14.13

315

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 17:41

Explanation: during discussions, it was unclear who would need to use a p keeper on Devers, which came to light after I posted. The revised deal is a compromise, leaving out prospects and prospect picks, hopefully leaving things simpler and everyone happier.

I now have zero prospect picks (after keeping Devers and Bradley), but am interested in acquiring one in the top 6, either with my remaining S picks, one of my newly acquired players, or with Devers or Bradley. Email me.

Also, big thanks to Tosh for methodically working through this (twice!).

316

Tosh
Leader
ID: 057721710
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 17:46

Agreed on the revision.

I still have my round 2 prospect pick for 2017. Round 1 goes to mjd.

317

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 18:30

* Trade Announcement *

Tree receives:

1.20
3.20
9.20
2017 1st and 2nd round prospect picks

Species receives:

Edwin Encarnacion
8.07
10.07
14.07

318

Tree
ID: 48192723
Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 19:25

Confirmed.

319

Bmd
ID: 825715
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 09:35

If anybody is interested in Matt Olson as a 10th keeper(I'm assuming this is possible) or as a prospect keeper. Email me asap with a trade proposal.

320

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 11:33

Some updates:

1) I put the prospect draft thread up an hour early. I have meetings most of the rest of the day. There is still 30 minutes to go so it is perfectly fine to change your mind / make a move.

I have Judy's 1.01 (it will SHOCK YOU!) but will wait for Guru to post the draft grid first.

2) I have added all 10th keepers to teams' rosters.

3) I have updated the Prospect List in the Constitution.

I MAKE MISTAKES! Please review your prospects on ESPN, the taken prospects in the Prospect Draft thread, and most importantly your prospect picks.

321

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 11:41

Supplemental Draft Grid (P-draft grid is in the Prospect Draft thread)

	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Round 5	Round 6	Round 7
1	Judy	Species	Species	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd
2	Great One	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd
3	bmd	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders
4	Species	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy
5	Nerfherders	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside
6	darkside	Fosten	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads
7	Tosh	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree
8	Tree	Great One	blue hen	slizz	Great One	Great One	Great One
9	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean
10	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer	darkside	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer
11	Khahan	Khahan	Meatwads	Khahan	Great One	Khahan	Khahan
12	bmd	bmd	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy
13	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh
14	Fosten	Fosten	Guru	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten
15	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman
16	WG	slizz	bmd	WG	Meatwads	bmd	Tree
17	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	blue hen	blue hen	Tosh	bmd
18	Guru	Guru	Guru	slizz	Guru	Guru	Guru
19	slizz	slizz	Nerfherders	darkside	slizz	blue hen	ttucowboy
20	Tree	Species	Tree	Species	Species	Khahan	Thumqer

	Round 8	Round 9	Round 10	Round 11	Round 12	Round 13	Round 14
1	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd
2	bmd	blue hen	Species	WG	WG	ttucowboy	ttucowboy
3	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Great One
4	WG	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy
5	darkside	slizz	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside
6	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Khahan	WG	Species
7	Species	WG	Species	Tree	Tree	Tree	Species
8	Great One	Great One	Great One	Great One	Khahan	Great One	Great One
9	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean
10	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer	Species	Thumqer	Thumqer
11	Khahan	Khahan	Species	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan
12	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	slizz	ttucowboy	ttucowboy
13	blue hen	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	blue hen	blue hen
14	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten
15	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman
16	WG	Judy	WG	WG	WG	WG	WG
17	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	Great One	Meatwads	WG
18	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru
19	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	Guru
20	Meatwads	Tree	mjd	mjd	mjd	Species	bmd

322

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 12:26

* Trade Announcement *

Thumper receives:

Jose Quintana
Nick Williams (Prospect)

Species receives:

Johnny Cueto

323

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 12:49

Confirmed!

324

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 15:32

Trade Announcement

Great One receives:
- Rafael Devers
- 8.17

BH receives:
- 1.06p
- 1.16p
- James Paxton

325

GO
ID: 17312218
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 16:21

Confirmed

326

Tree
ID: 48192723
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 17:13

Thumqer - shoot me an email?

327

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 17:23

Trade Announcement

Nerfherders receives:

Prospect pick 1.07
Supp. pick 3.06

Meatwads receives:

Prospect pick 1.04
Supp. pick 5.03

328

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 17:33

327 - Confirmed

329

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 17:46

327 approved. Will post in Prospect Draft thread.

330

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 18:20

324: I am calling for some feedback on this trade before I consider approving it.

As has been our custom, offseason trades are governed by Commissioner review. ESPN's site does not allow for the 24 hour veto period so we have no other choice.

This is a pretty big trade with a high amount of value --- and I will completely admit that I am negatively biased . I don't know if other teams have the same reaction to this trade or not.......but before just rubber stamping it through, I wanted to know.

I need as many teams' feedback before the evening is out, please.

331

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 18:38

Additional comment to 330:

Nobody will believe there is any collusion involved in the trade in post 324. The point of bringing it up for feedback prior to approval is on the basis of the trade possibly being unbalanced and affecting the competitiveness of the league.

Admittedly, as I stated, I am biased as this trade materially strengthens a contender. I could be way off base here. It was pointed out to me that one might have looked at the Buxton/Ray for Bumgarner trade as unbalanced as well. Except, in that case, a contender could have been seen as becoming weaker, so I (for one) wasn't as concerned. That was a very fair point.

332

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 19:00

324,330 - it does seem very unbalanced. I'm having trouble understanding why GO would have given up two 1st round supplemental picks plus a serviceable SP in return for a prospect.

Even if you eliminate one of the 1st round picks, it still seems unbalanced to me.

333

Tree
ID: 48192723
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 19:07

WG and I were discussing this deal.

My jaw hit the floor. To me, that's an insane amount to pay for a guy who is, himself, a prospect.

334

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 19:19

332: Clarification. The picks are both 1st round prospect picks. Not supplemental.

I would argue prospect picks are more valuable -- but that value is in the eye of the beholder. Kind of like redheads with blue eyes drive me CRAZZZZZZZZZY

335

darkside
ID: 81492120
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 19:21

I wouldn't have made that deal, but I've got no problem with letting it go through.

336

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 19:37

ah, prospect picks. I missed that.

I'd value 1.06 and 1.16 prospect picks lower than 1.06 and 1.16 supplemental, so this makes it less unbalanced to me. I just think they're more speculative. Still seems somewhat lopsided, though. Lopsided enough to veto? Tough call.

337

mjd
Dude
ID: 501381415
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 20:02

Hairy eyeball, at least.

338

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 20:15

It would be helpful to hear input from the teams involved. Is 24 hours the rule in g20? I believe ESPN league settings offer 48 hour and 72 hour options.

339

ttucowboy
ID: 8550318
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 20:24

It's a steep price to pay, but I'm a big fan of Devers. The kid is going to beast it when he gets to the majors. I see no problem with the trade. GO knows what he's doing.

340

slizz
ID: 22234211
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 20:30

In all my years as a member of G20, I have yet to criticize a trade. Almost always, I have come to the defense of those on the other end of getting criticized as I've been through the scrutiny with some "tough" deals (ex - the Matt Holliday trade). Most often, the owners are going for the long play, as I was. That ends today.

I REALLY want to reserve judgment until the draft plays out...but I can't fathom how the Tosh / BH deal is even remotely acceptable...he got no future prospects and gave up 2 keepers...only having to replace them with guys who were deemed as leftovers in exchange for a top 25, on base league, overall player in Bautista & Colome.

Tosh now has to replace the two vacated spots from them as he only has 7 players...so don't give me the "oh he has 2 first rounders too!" Do those two first rounders even come remotely close to Bautista?

No way! They're players we all, collectively, deemed as not worthy of being kept. So now that he finally gets back to 9 players (picks 1.07 and 1.17) with everyone's leftovers he only has a 2 3 and 6 to show for it. For a top 25 overall player? And Colome?

Bautista contact, power #'s and hard hit % were at or near career highs. Was more unlucky than anything. Dive into the advanced metrics if you don't believe me.

If it was pre-keep, I would say ok and get on board with it. Same if he got a prospect that one can build with...But that trade is bad no matter how you cut it.

Re - Devers trade: I will come to GO's defense here. He paid what I like to call the "blue hen tax" with Paxton. I talk to Dave on a regular basis and I'm not exactly going out on a limb in saying that he drives a hard bargain (I am not a madbum guy and, as a result, he continually proposed Duvall for Madbum straight up last year...lol). Those who have read moneyball knows he likes to extract max value, just like Billy Beane did when he dealt with Omar Minaya.

As a result of this trade, GO now has his infield accounted for:

1B - Freeman
2B - Baez
3B - Devers
SS - Bogaerts

Plus
OF - Dahl
SP - Kershaw
SP - Price (if his elbow heals right)

Paxton isn't exactly a foundational player and was streamed by me 2x...in September! Furthermore, he has never amassed 150 IP in a season. Foundational player pre 2017? I think not. It stings but it's not as bad as Tosh's deal.

I'm sure GO saw it the same way and it got him Devers...a top prospect and BoSox player (his favorite team).

Had Devers been available to draft he would, arguably, be the top player available. In the NFL that would've got 2 p picks as well. He (GO) just paid the blue hen tax of Paxton.

Re - Buxton. I have an acquaintance I knock ideas off at Rotoworld. Those who know me know I wanted Robles with my first pick in the 2016 p-draft. My guy at rotoworld basically said that Robles ceiling is 80% of an average buxton if he ever figures it out. And I love Robles! I think that this is the last time that any of us would be able to get him at a discount. Hopefully I am right!

341

slizz
ID: 22234211
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 20:31

Forgive the grammar. Typed it all on my phone...

342

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 20:46

I dont see the problem with the trade in 324. Its not one I would have made myself. But its not so unbalanced that it needs discussion. GO is giving up 2 speculative picks for 1 speculative player. A player that is a bigtime prospect on his favorite team.

343

GO
ID: 17312218
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 21:28

Can't believe it is even a debate to be honest.

Is it Paxton career high 6 wins last year that give him that major value all of a sudden? lol... I can easily replace him with the 8th rounder I got back. I got Pomeranz, Conley and Roark after that round last year who all outperformed him. I got Paxton for FREE agent last September. Did he eat some magic beans in the off-season or something? He's barely above a replacement level SP. Just eating some decent innings for BH to sweeten it.

Devers would have been the #1 ranked player in this prospect draft if eligible. To get 1.01 value I essentially "traded up" with 1.06 + 1.16. Which for me was a no brainer as there are no other prospects I am dying to draft right now. Condense those deeper speculative guys.

Devers - he'll be universally top ten ranked this time next year. He's already 8th overall in one major rank with guys like Dansby and Benintendi coming off the list ahead. He is an elite bat. In addition to high rank his value multiplied when you consider #1 He plays my biggest position of need - 3B. #2 helps my biggest deficiency - HR power.

I didn't go after him previously cause didn't want too many Red Sox. Moncada switching Sox alleviated that concern.

So if trading a couple deeper speculative prospects up into one considerably higher ranked elite prospect... sweetened with a slightly above replacement caliber throw in SP is too much then I guess I way overpaid. But I can't wait to watch Devers mash in a year or two.

344

Bmd
ID: 825715
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 21:43

Willing to trade 1.12 supp pick for a 1st round prospect pick. Would do it for any of the next 5 picks but possibly a later 1st p pick depending on who has been taken.

345

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 22:00

Based on GO's analysis, I'd let the trade go through.

346

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 22:20

Where do we send payment and how much is it?

347

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 22:30

THANK YOU to everyone who chimed in. I also got a few emails/texts so there was a good cross-reference of opinions on the matter.

Based upon the various feedback --- from jaw-dropping to just eyebrow-raising to (paraphrasing) 'it looks fine to me' --- I am satisfied that this trade is fine to put through. I will go approve it right now.

I also feel that the strength of the reactions justifies my feelings of uneasiness regarding just approving it willy-nilly.

I hope GO and bh are not offended by my action on this trade. Nothing personal.

I will note the traded prospect picks in the prospect draft thread. Please be cognizant of these trades when emailing the next three teams.

348

GO
ID: 388562222
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 00:21

Taking offers on 1.02 supplemental, either for a 1st+ next year, player, package etc.

349

Tosh
Leader
ID: 057721710
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 00:42

Feedback to slizz [340] --

I understand that you think I got hosed in the trade. I will briefly provide my thinking behind it.

In Bautista, I have a 36 year-old that could rebound to what he did a couple of seasons ago, or he could continue a downward trend. He's also has a history of missing games with injury. So this year is really a crapshoot about what he'll provide. His 2017 value shows wide variance across the internet, as further proof of the crapshoot status.

Then I took a look at keeper-league rankings ...
ESPN - #144
Dynasty Guru - #137
Fantasy Assembly - #150
MLB Reports - #136
Razzball - Not in the top-100
CBS - Not in the top-100

This is going to be my best chance to get any return on Bautista. He won't be ranked any higher next year.

Re: Colome ... a stronger team would have not kept him. In fact, I see 4 non-keeper closers that I rank higher than Colome. He is a replaceable commodity for me. I drafted him last year with pick 7.16. There is value to be found in odd places with a little luck.

When I ran the projected standings after the keeper deadline, I saw myself in 5th place. After removing Bautista and Colome from my roster, I see myself in 10th place ... with just 7 players.

So which option leaves me stronger for this (and next) year?
-- Bautista, Colome, 7 picks in the first 133
-- 7 of the first 57 picks, and 12 of the first 133

I am feeling pretty confident that option #2 will leave a stronger, more balanced and deeper roster, and maybe I can even get lucky and draft a couple of 2018 keepers.

Does Blue Hen have a formidable looking team right now? YES. But most of his picks are late in the draft now ... so if he suffers a few injuries ... his backups won't provide any firepower. He'll be wishing that he had been able to draft a stronger bench.

350

Bmd
ID: 825715
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 09:22

I think the Tosh/bh trade is fine. I know how hard it is to sell a 36 year old slugger. Not fun as your market is like 2-3 managers at most and those managers have to have that need as well. Perhaps Tosh sold low on Bautista but I think he got fair market value for a 36 year old that had 22 homeruns and a .366 obp last year

GO/bh deal. Wow. GO got robbed imo. Devers is a fine prospect but not a can't miss top ten guy yet. Even top 10 can't miss guys miss(of course that also shows those prospects picks aren't nearly as valuable as people think they are). That said, GO likes him and has proven to be a good manager. We've all eaten crow on trades that we thought were lopsided that turned out to be not so lopsided. I'm just kicking myself for not entertaining the idea of trading Benintendi.

351

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 09:31

I was just checking to see who had funds available to offset dues this year, and discovered that I never distributed the prize pool for last year's season. I was traveling for the first half of October, and must have forgotten when I returned. (Of course, none of you who were due money reminded me, either!)

So, I need to figure that out first. Stay tuned.

353

GO
ID: 330592710
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 11:16

I have no clue what ranks you guys are looking at. Did you not want to pay for the updated 2017 subscriptions or something?! :)

Let me give you a summary.

And remember you can remove Benintendi, Dansby, Glasgow, Reyes and possibly Moncada + Giolito from all of these rankings as they’ll be off the list soon.

They are the core of repeated guys currently ahead of him in all ranks.

He will likely be a contender for the #1 overall prospect in some of these same ranks this time next year. At worst he’s universally a top 10.

Also note he’s typically the highest ranked 3B (possibly over to 1B long term) power bat on all these lists already.

Baseball America – #18 overall.
3rd ranked player with 2018 ETA behind Torres, Robles

Baseball Prospectus Dynasty Prospect Rank –
#8! overall, ahead of the likes of GIolito, JP, Eloy, Gleyber

Prospect361 -- #8 – “Impact bat and soon”
Rotoworld - #11 (also suggesting a Sept. cup of coffee this year in his age 21 season).
Sporting News - #10
Fanrag #15
Prospects1500 - #13
MLB - #17
Fantasyassembly - #5! With only Brendan Rodgers sticking on the list
Fangraphs - #19
Minorleagueball - #9 (behind SIX guys coming off the list)
CBS - #22

Guys taken at the top of our prospect draft so far like Vlad and Maitian are so young they are showing ETAs of around 2020. Now THAT is a long term projection leap.

BH just took Zach Colllins with my 1.06 pick. Solid pick. Nice young bat.
MLB at #81

Rotoworld has him at #68.
BP at #39

If you can’t see how the Collins level of player + a player he’s getting 10 picks from now Is a simple trade up --- from 2 really speculative outside of the Top 50 type prospect into 1 elite, then I don’t know what you are looking at.

This is prospect picks 1.06 + 1.16 (outside the top 50 on average) for a guy who is an ELITE top 10 prospect and essentially the 1.01 pick of this current prospect draft if he were an option.

AND he’s not 3 years away.

Paxton is an replacement level throw in as established above he wasn’t even on a G20 roster in Sept. Career high 6 wins, 120 IP and I got a pick back to replace him

354

darkside
ID: 81492120
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 12:06

Love it, GO. I think that answers the question of why very nicely.

Also, just because Species noted it specifically a couple of times, I'll mention that I don't expect to email the next three people in the prospect draft. In fact, ever since we've left CBS (which had a page with manager emails), I have no idea where to look for the emails of people in the league. Some I've got just from having been in the league and talking trades, but many I don't. Is there a place where everyone's emails are listed?

Either way, me trying to find Meatwads' email just isn't worth my time. Sorry if that's not cool, but I take solace in knowing that I didn't get an email before my pick. Maybe we should just stop asking that of managers?

355

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 12:25

re 354: darkside, I agree, it would be helpful to have a shared contact info sheet that all can update. Even more important for first-year managers to get started. I have a list of everyone's email addresses, drop me a line, and I'll pass on what I have.

356

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 12:27

I agree with the Senator from the Darkside.

357

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 12:55

Sorry about the delay in the prospect draft. I had no idea it had started early.

358

Khahan
ID: 82171512
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 13:17

Just dropping my email here to make sure everybody has it updated. I will, upon request, send my cell phone for text-based discussion as well.

I can also be reached via facebook which a number of you are already on my list.

I'm pretty sure I have almost everybody in G20 in my email already from the past 18 or so years of being at these boards.

359

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 13:49

I don't think I've ever emailed the next 3 people. Actually I might've back in early 2000's but not since then. With smart phones and text message it's not as necessary as it used to be.

360

Species
ID: 46252312
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 14:38

Well.....we are officially on the clock now. I guess if everyone is on top of it, then roll with it.

361

slizz
ID: 22234211
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 21:19

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT

Slizz trades the rights to Anderson Espinoza, SP, SD to Meatwads for p-pick 1.13.

362

Meatwads
ID: 45114139
Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 21:19

361 - Confirmed.

363

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 11:00

Looking to luck into one more prospect pick. Email me if you have one and are interested.

364

GO
ID: 388562222
Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 23:28

re 350 - BMD - Benintendi I don't really think will be all that great. A better all around real life player than fantasy producer. Hopefully I'm wrong and he's better than that.

I did offer Dahl for him straight up this offseason. Felt that was pretty fair for everyone involved. Both even were 10th wild card keepers too I believe.

365

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 12:32

I currently have at least three people bidding on the final prospect pick. If you are interested, make your best offer (presumably a supplemental pick or pick upgrade) now.

I may use the pick myself, but figured I'll see what the market will fetch.

366

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 13:03

Trade:

blue hen gets my 3.02 prospect pick (2017), plus my 14.18 supplemental (2017 - which neither he nor I will need, in all likelihood)

I get blue hen's 3.08 supplemental pick (2017).

367

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 13:04

Confirmed.

368

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 16:05

Outstanding work by everyone on the prospect draft! Thank you for your attention.

I have entered in all of the prospects and updated the alphabetical list. Please double-check yours for accuracy.

Next step is for me to get Draftime ready. The draft order and all trades are up-to-date. It is now time for me to enter keepers. I won't be doing that for a day or two. My hope is to have the draft open for business on Sunday at some point. Clock starts Monday at Noon ET.

369

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 00:46

The Gurupie 20 2017 Supplemental Draft has been opened in Draftime.

This is a time to take stock in your keepers and picks and also to see that trades have been accounted for properly! I try hard to be accurate, but when you stare at the Draftime trade and keeper screens for a couple of hours entering every keeper and trade, my computer screen starts to look like "The Matrix" so there is a decent chance I have made an error.

There is no requirement to make any picks. The clock will start Monday with our usual 3 hours per pick clock.

Some reminders / rules about our Supplemental Draft:

1) Draftime is a tool to accommodate our draft process due to its strong in-draft tools (queues, emails, etc). But it is not designed to handle your post-keeper trades.

Point being - dont think of Draftime as the tool to manage your roster. I cannot account for post-keeper trades into draftime (from the perspective of seeing them on your Draft Grid, for example). ESPN is a better way to check your roster for completeness as we navigate the draft.

I have added people's 10th keepers both to their rosters on ESPN and to their listed "Keepers" in draftime.

2) Draftime is accurate right now in terms of "removing" from the draft pool all of the prospects on our prospect list as well as the 10th keepers. Please note: without notice, Draftime will add new names to the pool. So, just because Victor Robles isn't in there now, he could be added between now and before our draft is completed and I might miss it.

So, in terms of prospects, our prospect list and 10th keeper declarations take precedence over a name being shown available in Draftime that shouldn't be there. It is every managers responsibility to check those lists if there is any doubt about a players availability. If you make an incorrect pick, the draft moves on and you can correct it at any time.

3) All players are now free agents in ESPN. So, when you draft a player, it is your responsibility to pick up that player in ESPN! Some day I am going to develop my own Kangaroo Court penalty system and count how many managers don't pick up their players. Be a team player! You have a phone!! Don't be a lazy ass!!! I am going to name names, dammit.

Using the ESPN list as a way to gauge what players are available is an invaluable tool for our draft. Sure we all have a variety of lists we refer to, but having ESPN right there is important.

Unfortunately, while I have placed all of the 10th keepers on their respective teams, there is no easy way to filter our prospect list out of the ESPN available free agents. I know this is a source of consternation, but we work with what we have.

Please note: to be eligible to be drafted in our Supplemental Draft, our rules dictate that the player must be in the ESPN list of Free Agent players. So, there could be a name that shows available in Draftime that is NOT in the ESPN FA list. I'm not sure that has ever happened, but I assume it is possible.

4) Please be aware that managers will forget to pick up players and they will show available in ESPN.........but when you go to Draftime they show unavailable. Nothing we can do about that.

5) Please post any in-draft pick trades ASAP. We have 4 managers with Admin privileges in Draftime to accommodate this exact need. I am in meetings or traveling often so I cannot be the sole person to administer this.

Please post here or contact me privately with any questions. Good luck to you all, and happy drafting!!

370

Guru
ID: 330592710
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 07:32

Updated grid:

	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Round 5	Round 6	Round 7
1	Judy	Species	Species	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd
2	Great One	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd	bmd
3	bmd	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Meatwads	Nerfherders	Nerfherders
4	Species	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy
5	Nerfherders	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside
6	darkside	Fosten	Nerfherders	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads
7	Tosh	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree	Tree
8	Tree	Great One	Guru	slizz	Great One	Great One	Great One
9	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean
10	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer	darkside	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer
11	Khahan	Khahan	Meatwads	Khahan	Great One	Khahan	Khahan
12	bmd	bmd	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy
13	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh
14	Fosten	Fosten	Guru	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten
15	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman
16	WG	slizz	bmd	WG	Meatwads	bmd	Tree
17	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	blue hen	blue hen	Tosh	bmd
18	Guru	Guru	Guru	slizz	Guru	Guru	Guru
19	slizz	slizz	Nerfherders	darkside	slizz	blue hen	ttucowboy
20	Tree	Species	Tree	Species	Species	Khahan	Thumqer

	Round 8	Round 9	Round 10	Round 11	Round 12	Round 13	Round 14
1	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd	mjd
2	bmd	blue hen	Species	WG	WG	ttucowboy	ttucowboy
3	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Nerfherders	Great One
4	WG	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy	Judy
5	darkside	slizz	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside	darkside
6	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Meatwads	Khahan	WG	Species
7	Species	WG	Species	Tree	Tree	Tree	Species
8	Great One	Great One	Great One	Great One	Khahan	Great One	Great One
9	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean	Bean
10	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer	Thumqer	Species	Thumqer	Thumqer
11	Khahan	Khahan	Species	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan	Khahan
12	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	ttucowboy	slizz	ttucowboy	ttucowboy
13	blue hen	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	Tosh	blue hen	blue hen
14	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten	Fosten
15	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman	youngroman
16	WG	Judy	WG	WG	WG	WG	WG
17	Great One	blue hen	blue hen	blue hen	Great One	Meatwads	WG
18	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	Guru	blue hen
19	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	slizz	Guru
20	Meatwads	Tree	mjd	mjd	mjd	Species	bmd

371

Bmd
ID: 825715
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 08:36

If interested in 1.03, the next pick, please email me. I'm going to field offers on it. Interested in 2018 or beyond supplemental or prospect picks. Would be open to players under 25 as well.

372

ttucowboy
ID: 8550318
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 15:16

Trade Announcement

ttucowboy trades:
2018 1st round prospect pick

bmd trades:
2017 1st round supplemental pick (1.03)

bmd to confirm

373

beastiemiked
ID: 481162721
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 15:17

Confirmed.

374

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 15:59

Processed. Fire away Pete.

375

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 16:01

Putting our completed prospect draft trades here for posterity (before I delete them) in case there's an issue.

The following managers have had their 2017 Prospect Draft selections altered via trade:
3-16-16 mjd receives slizz' last round prospect pick (Bumgarner / Giolito)
3-19-16 Great One receives WG's 2nd (Grichuk)
3-20-16 bmd receives Pete's 2nd (2016 pick swap)
3-22-16 Meatwads receives Khahan's 1st (Dozier)
5-15-16 mjd receives Tosh's 1st (Tanaka)
1-14-17 Meatwads receives Fosten's 1st and 2nd (Darvish, etc)
3-13-17 Thumper receives blue hen's 1st (Archer/Kemp/Semien)
3-13-17 Tree receives Species' 1st and 2nd (Encarnacion)
3-14-17 Meatwads receives Nerfherders' 1.04 for his 1.07 (Supp Pick swap)
3-14-17 blue hen receives Great One's 1.06 and 1.16 (Devers)
3-15-17 slizz receives Meatwads' 1.13 (A. Espinoza)
3-17-17 blue hen receives Guru's 3.02 ('17 supp pick)

376

Bmd
ID: 825715
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 17:07

1.12 is also available. Looking for a future supp 1st rounder and something extra.

377

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 17:27

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT

Thumper sends Ian Desmond and Matt Harvey to WG for prospect Brendan Rodgers and WG's 1st round pick in 2019's supplemental draft.

WG to confirm.

378

ttucowboy
ID: 8550318
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 19:53

Trade Announcement

ttucowboy trades:
2018 1st round supplemental pick
2018 3rd round prospect pick

bmd trades:
2017 1st round pick (1.12)

bmd to confirm

379

Bmd
ID: 825715
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 20:29

Confirm

380

Judy
ID: 35493114
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 23:44

Left 14 man Q for 17 picks head of me. Out most of Monday...

381

WG
ID: 53213822
Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 23:50

Confirm

382

GO
ID: 17312218
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 11:34

2.08 for sale for 1st supp or prospect pick next year.

383

slizz
ID: 3556212
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 11:52

Tosh - I should've bit my tongue in post 340 until after you picked. Please accept my apology.

The trade basically becomes:

Pujols / Watson / 2 / 3 / 6

for

Bautista / Colome

When one looks at it like that, it is more balanced. That said, I still prefer the Bautista / Colome side, but that's part of what makes fantasy baseball fun. Good luck!

384

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 13:12

We are off and running! The 3 hour clock has now been activated (a little late).

The trade in Post 377 is noteworthy. Our rules restrict the trading of draft picks - both Prospect and Supplemental - as follows:

Trades for draft picks - be they Supplemental or Prospect picks - may only be consummated within two drafts from the date of the trade.

Since we are now in the midst of the 2017 supplemental draft, I deem 2019 supplemental draft picks to be open for business. Obviously the 2017 prospect draft has been completed, so 2019 Prospect Picks are now available to be traded as well.

Please let me know if you have any concerns with this interpretation.

Happy drafting.

385

Bmd
ID: 825715
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 15:30

2.02 available for a 1st rounder next year.

3.02 available for a 2nd rounder next year.

4.02 available for a 3rd rounder next year.

If you don't have those picks still available I'm open to other deals that are similar.

386

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 15:53

FROM THE TREASURER:

Time to collect dues for the prize pool for 2017-18

For those in the pool, the annual charge is $15. The pool is distributed to the top 6 in the standings. Typically, the winner gets around $100, and 6th place gets $15, with the scale grading in between. Final determination of amounts depend on the number participating in the pool each year.

New teams in the league may wait one year before deciding to be in the pool. Of course, if you defer in your first year, you are ineligible for a prize in your first year. Starting in year #2, you must decide whether to be in or out. If you are in, you must remain in the pool each year going forward. If you ever decide to opt out in the future, you may no longer re-enter the pool.

Thumqer has the option this year to join or to defer his option.
Meatwads deferred last year, so this year he must decide whether he’s in or out.
Blue Hen is out of the pool.
I believe everyone else is in.

Some people have funds on account (from previous winnings) to cover their $15 dues for this year.
Some people still owe for G20 Hoops (since I forgot to collect at the begging of the NBA season).

The following managers have enough funds on account to cover dues: Slizz, Species, youngroman, Guru
The following managers will most likely win enough from the current G20 Hoops season to cover their dues (so don't bother paying anything now): Pete N, WG
Four managers owe for both baseball and Hoops - $30 total: Bean, BMD, Tosh, Meatwads
Thumqer owes $15 if he decides to opt in this year.
Everyone else owes $15: Darkside, GO, mjd, Nerf, Fosten, Khahan, Tree, Tosh, Judy

If you think I have missed funds on account for you, please let me know, Otherwise, you may pay in one of these two ways:

PAYPAL: send to davehall@rotoguru2.com. (Recipient will probably appear as Uncommon Cents LLC.) Designate this as “send money to friends and family”, and mark the payment only as G20 baseball

CHECK via SNAIL MAIL: check can be sent to the address listed at the bottom of this page:
http://rotoguru2.com/gurupatron-info.html

Payments are due NOW. Please pay promptly so I don't have to keep pestering you.

388

Judy
ID: 35493114
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 16:52

Left 14 man Q for 17 picks head of me. Out most of Monday...

389

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 17:36

* Trade Announcement *

Species receives:
1.20
2018 6th

Tree receives:
4.20
2018 1st

390

Tree
ID: 77532019
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 17:37

confirmed.

391

WG
ID: 35338278
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 23:32

TRADE

Tree gets Dansby Swanson and 4.16
WG gets Hanley Ramirez and 2.07

In case the trade couldn't be processed before the Draftime clock expired, I wanted to state my intention to draft Kendrys Morales with this 2.07 pick.

392

Tree
ID: 48192723
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 23:33

Confirmed

393

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 23:37

I just noticed that the overnight draft pause was not set - so I set it. That should avoid an overnight mess!

394

Species
ID: 46252312
Mon, Mar 20, 2017, 23:59

Thanks Guru! Sigh. I missed it.

Speaking of Admin powers, Guru, Tosh and blue hen are also Admins of Draftime. If I am unavailable (as I was for a while tonight), please feel free to push these through.

395

slizz
ID: 22234211
Wed, Mar 22, 2017, 14:23

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT

MJD trades:
Jason Heyward, OF, CHC

Slizz trades:
2017 s-draft 14.3
2018 4th round pick if Heyward fails to have 20 combined hr/sb
2018 3rd round pick if Heyward has 21-34 combined hr/sb
2018 2nd round pick if Heyward has 35+ combined hr/sb

MJD to confirm...

396

mjd
ID: 12201912
Wed, Mar 22, 2017, 14:55

confirmed.

397

Tosh
Dude
ID: 057721710
Wed, Mar 22, 2017, 15:15

[395] - What am I missing?? The above grid [370] shows 14.3 belonging to Great One.

398

Tree
ID: 77532019
Wed, Mar 22, 2017, 17:15

Andrew Toles, being just one letter from Tokes, seemed like a good pick for 4.20.

the other candidate, likely won't even get drafted in this league. which says something.

399

Tosh
Dude
ID: 057721710
Wed, Mar 22, 2017, 20:51

For pick 4.20, you could have gotten away with any 'hitter', and made it work.

400

slizz
ID: 22234211
Wed, Mar 22, 2017, 21:44

Good catch, Tosh.

Please amend it to pick 13.19.

401

Tree
ID: 77532019
Wed, Mar 22, 2017, 22:00

re 399 true that!

402

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 12:49

Still awaiting $15 dues from Tree and Nerf.

Meatwads, you have to decide if you are in the baseball pool or not. You also owe $15 for G20 hoops, regardless. $30 if in for both sports.

Thumqer - you can wait a year to join the pool if you wish. Regardless, please let me know of your intent: joining now, or deferring.

Thanks to everyone else for your prompt payments.

403

ttucowboy
ID: 8550318
Thu, Mar 23, 2017, 16:55

Calling up Mitch Haniger and forfeiting pick 14.12. Also with my acquisition of picks 1.03 and 1.12, forfeiting picks 13.12 and 14.02.

404

Fosten
ID: 71512716
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 15:48

Trade Announcement
Fosten receives
7.17
2018 10th round supplemental pick

bmd receives
11.14
2018 6th round supplemental pick

405

Bmd
ID: 825715
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 15:59

Confirm

406

Tosh
Dude
ID: 057721710
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 16:44

Trade processed in Draftime. Fosten is on the clock.

407

Species
ID: 46252312
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 17:25

Trade announcement:

Bmd receives:
Species 2017 10.11
2019 7th

Species receives:
Bmd 8.02
2019 11th

408

Bmd
ID: 825715
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 17:35

Confirm.

409

Tosh
Dude
ID: 057721710
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 17:45

Trade processed in Draftime. Species is in the hole.

410

darkside
ID: 81492120
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 21:45

Thumqer and I forgot to specify him getting my last round pick for the Kepler trade. He should have my 14.05 as I'll be done after my 13.05 pick.

411

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 22:03

Trade Announcement
Fosten receives
8.06
2018 11th round supplemental pick

Meatwads receives
12.14
2018 7th round supplemental pick

412

Meatwads
ID: 401452213
Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 22:04

Confirmed.

413

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 01:05

@410 thanks for mentioning that darkside!

414

Meatwads
ID: 28231618
Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 13:20

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT

WG receives :
Pick 8.20
Pick 9.06
2018 14th round pick
2019 14th round pick

Meatwads receives :
Pick 14.16
Pick 14.17
2018 7th round pick
2019 8th round pick

415

WG
ID: 35338278
Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 13:23

Confirm

416

GO
ID: 17312218
Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 10:33

If Species times out he should be subject to severe sanctions!

417

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 12:15

416: I know! I'm such a tyrant.

Close but no cigar.

------------------------

The draft continues and we are on track for Thursday finish (in the middle of the night). Let's shoot to bang this sucker out by Wednesday and give us some time to re-load all of the rosters and get guys on waivers.

Reminder: until rosters are re-entered and players are placed on waivers, there are NO pick ups besides our draft. That will have us pushing Opening Day, but we should be good.

PS - great pre-season!! Probably the most hectic, trade-filled pre-season ever. Or at least in my memory. Tons of post-keeper blockbusters and big number of in-draft trades. Good time for pick sellers!

418

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 14:46

* LEAGUE ANNOUNCEMENT *

Per my email, we are getting to the point where lost of teams are going to be forfeiting picks.......and we need to have our 4 admins aware of what picks are being forfeited so we can process the end of our draft smoothly.

Here is the list I have. This is based upon a quick look of existing rosters and remaining picks. This assumes everyone has picked up their players:

Species: 14.06 and 14.07
mjd: 13.19 and 14.01
Bean 14.09
WG 12.16, 13.06 and 13.16
Khahan 13.11 and 14.11
ttucowboy (already posted): 13.12, 14.02 and 14.12
Fosten 13.14 and 14.14
blue hen: 13.13, 14.13 and 14.18
Guru: 13.18 and 14.19
Tree: 13.07

Some teams will end up short of the 23 man roster at the end of the draft. In some cases, there were trades that happened where Player A got a pick but Player B did not. If you don't designate it, I do NOT assume that Player B gets the last pick from Player A.

Please certify your own teams' forfeited picks. Thanks.

419

Bean
ID: 27592412
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 14:51

Confirmed, I forfeit 14.09

420

darkside
ID: 81492120
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 15:00

Thumqer gets my 14.05. Sorry we didn't specify that!

421

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 15:02

List is correct. My final pick will be 12.18, forfeiting the final 2

422

darkside
ID: 81492120
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 15:11

I see someone had already taken care of my 14.05. Thanks to all the admins for keeping the draft going!

423

Judy
ID: 35493114
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 15:25

I am forfeiting 14.04 I used 10th on Stephenson.

424

Bmd
ID: 825715
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 15:48

Trade in post 378 should've included the following to square up:

Bmd receives 2017 13.12
Ttucowboys receives bmd's 2018 11th round supp pick.

Ttu to confirm.

425

ttucowboy
ID: 8550318
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 16:17

Confirmed

426

Fosten
ID: 4097314
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 16:29

Confirmed, I forfeit 13.14 and 14.14. Thanks.

427

Khahan
ID: 532492715
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 16:49

Confirmed, 13.11 and 14.11 are taken up by Bregman and Bell.

428

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 17:58

424: Corrected both on ESPN trade list and in Draftime.

423: Judy is correct. She missed picking up S. Pearce so I was off in my count.

Thanks to those that have confirmed so far.

429

mjd
ID: 242182610
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 19:33

Confirmed, I forfeit 13.19 and 14.01

430

blue hen
ID: 5254718
Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 23:02

I'm done, 13.13, 14.13, and 14.18 aren't needed - Archer, Bautista, and Paxton in those spots. I've drafted 8, plus 9 keepers, plus 6 via trade. So I'm all done!

431

Species
ID: 46252312
Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 00:13

Great.

Draftime Admins -- please use post 418 to skip picks as they come up.

432

Species
ID: 46252312
Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 14:10

In order, we are skipping the following:

Round 13: 11 13 14 16 18 19

Round 14: 1 2 4 6 7 11 12 13 14 18 19

433

Bean
ID: 27592412
Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 14:35

You missed my 14.09 to be skipped as well

434

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 12:02

What a bright idea. Get your a$$ organized and bang out the last 2 rounds in a day by properly skipping forfeited picks. Great concept.

Great job everyone (except WG for easily the worst abuse of the clock)! Thank you for your diligence and attention to the draft.

NEXT STEP: Tosh will jump in at some point and "re-enter" our draft. In order to get all of the undrafted players onto the Waiver Wire, we must erase all of our existing work and start anew.

Accordingly, NO FREE AGENT PICKUPS CAN OCCUR until the draft is re-entered. You should get a notification from ESPN when this occurs. If you block those emails, then the other clue will be that all of the free agents are on waivers. We will reset the waiver order in inverse order of 2016's finish. Once all players are on waivers, it is a free for all and open season on waiver and FA pickups.

We should have all of this done in time for Opening Day on Sunday.

-----------------

Separately, I have to say this has been the craziest, most active offseason and preseason in my memory of G20. It has been awesome to see 5 or 6 teams going balls-out on trades -- be it post-keeper trades and definitely in-draft trades. Great time to be a seller of picks!

It was a pain in my a$$ to administer so I am REALLY glad it is over.......but I cannot complain too much because this is the type of action, activity and attention to the league that I have been steering the league towards. I hope everyone else is enjoying it too.

435

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 12:12

Saving for posterity before deleting:

These managers have had their 2017 Supplemental Draft selections altered via trade:
3-19-16 bmd receives Pete's 1st and 2nd (Beltre + 2016 2nd) for his last 2 picks
3-20-16 bmd receives blue hen's 7th for his 9th (2016 pick swap)
5-06-16 bmd receives WG's 3rd for his 12th (Carter)
5-06-16 Meatwads receives Species' 8th for his 14th (Lowrie)
6-02-16 Meatwads receives WG's 5th for his 13th (Crush / Carrasco etc)
6-06-16 bmd receives WG's 6th for his 11th (Calhoun)
6-09-16 slizz receives WG's 2nd for his 3rd (Nunez / Castillo)
6-09-16 Khahan receives Species' 6th for his 10th (Cervelli)
6-12-16 Tree receives WG's 7th for his 9th (Marte/Andrus)
6-22-16 blue hen receives WG's 6th for his 14th (Gray / Estevez)
7-23-16 Jaydog receives Species' 7th for his 12th (Ortiz)
8-01-16 darkside receives Slizz' 4th for his 9th (Pujols)
8-11-16 Pete receives Slizz' 7th for his 12th (Smyly)
8-13-16 WG receives Judy's 8th for his 9th (Sanchez / Markakis)
11-19-16 Great One receives Khahan's 5th for his 12th (Kershaw)
12-4-16 Species receives mjd's 1st, 2nd and 3rd for his 10th, 11th and 12th (Sanchez)
1-14-17 Fosten receives Meatwads' 2nd (Darvish, P-picks)
1-14-17 Guru receives Fosten's 3rd (Berrios)
1-18-17 blue hen receives Meatwads' 1.07 for his 13.17 (Verlander/Gallo)
1-27-17 WG receives WG's 3.19 for his 6.19* (Herrera)
*this pick completes the trade dated 6-22-16 with blue hen
2-21-17 slizz receives Guru's 4.18 for his 14.19 (Oh)
2-26-17 darkside receives Thumper's 4th (Kepler)
2-28-17 Nerfherders receives slizz' 3.19 for his 14.03 (A. Espinoza)
3-01-17 Meatwads receives Khahan's 3.11 for his 12.06 (Keuchel)
3-03-17 Species receives bmd's 10.02 for his 14.20 ('18 pick swap)
3-06-17 slizz receives Great One's 4.08 for his 14.03 (D. Santana)
3-10-17 blue hen receives Great One's 3.08 for his 12.17 (Bedrosian/Odorizzi)
3-13-17 Tosh receives blue hen's 1.07 (via Meatwads), 1.17, 2.17, 3.17 and 6.17 for his 8.15, 13.15 and 14.15 (Bautista / Colome)
3-13-17 Tree receives Species' 1.20, 3.20 and 9.20 for his 8.07, 10.07 and 14.07 (Encarnacion / P-Picks)
3-14-17 Nerfherders receives Meatwads' 3.06 for his 5.03 (P-pick swap)
3-14-17 Great One receives blue hen's 8.17 (Devers / p-picks)
3-17-17 Guru receives blue hen's 3.08 for his 14.18 (Prospect Pick)
3-19-17 ttucowboy receives bmd's 1.03 (2018 Prospect Pick)
3-19-17 ttucowboy receives bmd's 1.12 for his 13.12 (2018 supp and prospect picks)
3-20-17 Species receives Tree's 1.20 for his 4.20 (2018 supp pick)
3-23-17 mjd receives slizz' 13.19 (Heyward, 2018 pick)
3-24-17 Fosten receives bmd's 7.17 for his 11.14 (2018 pick swap)
3-24-17 Species recieves bmd's 8.02 for his 10.11 (2018 pick swap)
3-24-17 Fosten receives Meatwads' 8.06 for his 12.14 (2018 pick swap)
3-25-17 WG receives Meatwads' 8.20 and 9.06 for his 14.16 and 14.17 (2018 pick swap)

436

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 15:26

I'm not sure what happened but my team reverted to it's pre-draft roster, and is now locked.

437

Khahan
ID: 367431722
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 15:51

436 - nerf: you sure you didn't open up a link to last years league? I had to change my bookmark and reload the app on my phone to get rid of it.

438

Nerfherders
ID: 33543714
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 16:48

I think the rosters were just temporary and everything was reset to enter it as draft results. I just got an email with draft results.

439

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 17:21

It looks like Tosh is entering all of the post-keeper trades. With all of the activity and guys flying back and forth between teams, it is a big time job to put it all together accurately.

I see my post-keeper guys on there now. Give it a little time. Tosh will likely post his recap once he is finished.

440

Tosh
Dude
ID: 057721710
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 18:08

As Species said above ... this was the most active draft we've ever had. Unfortunately, ESPN does not offer the easiest way of entering such a complex series of transactions. I'm now at 4 hours on this project!!

THINGS OF NOTE -- I cannot find any trades that resolve these issues.
1. Meatwads have only 21 players
2. Thumpers have only 21 players
3. GO drafted Ryan Howard at 14.08, but has 23 players already
4. Tree drafted Jefry Marte at 12.07, but has 23 players already

The draft has now been re-set, and re-entered. Unfortunately, ESPN did not allow to make roster changes to the keepers while entering draft results, so it made the process a little trickier.

So I had to -
- Re-set the draft
- Enter the 10th/11th keepers
- Enter the draft results - ESPN did not allow going over 23 players.
- Close the draft
- Process all the in-draft trades.
- Go back and add additional draftees, so that everyone has 23 players.
- Set the Waiver order

I think I did it correctly. But it is possible that I missed a trade.

PLEASE CHECK YOUR ROSTER FOR ACCURACY!!

441

Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 19:16

THANK YOU TOSH! I appreciate the assist greatly.

Everyone please check your rosters and advise of any discrepancies. If so, post them here.

Otherwise, business is open as usual. All players are now on waivers and we can all now make waiver claims and free agent moves (as well as trades!).

442

Thumqer
ID: 39230821
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 19:58

Thanks guys!

I'm glad you mentioned trades because Adam Eaton is available! Anyone interested please reach out.

443

darkside
ID: 81492120
Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 23:00

My roster looks good. Thanks Species, Tosh, and everyone else who worked to get the draft done and the season started. Good luck to all!

444

Blue hen
ID: 410452818
Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 12:06

Trade Announcement

WG receives:
Adrian Morejon (p)
Travis D'Arnaud
Raimel Tapia
BH 2018 7th

BH receives:
Bryce Harper
WG 2018 14th

445

slizz
ID: 22234211
Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 17:20

TRADE ANNOUNCEMENT (not an April fools either)

BMD trades:
Blake Treinen, RP, WSH
2018 8th rd s-draft

Slizz trades:
Alan Hanson, 2B, PIT
2018 3rd rd s-draft (MJD's - post 300 in preseason thread)

446

Bmd
ID: 825715
Sat, Apr 01, 2017, 17:57

Confirm

447

slizz
ID: 3556212
Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 00:27

Ahh yes...spring is in the air, which means its G20 Time! This is one league I can always get excited about. Extremely talented, engaged owners who know their stuff. As I put the painful finish to 2016 behind me, it taught me many lessons. This diary is getting harder to write given my time constraints with chasing after two little girls...nevertheless, enjoy!

OFFSEASON DEALING

I found myself needing to shed my excess fat before keepers were declared, and was able to find landing spots for 4 of my keeper-quality leftovers:

-Kelvin Herrera, RP, KC for a 2nd and 6th rd pick swap: WG gets a tier 2 closer, with tier 1 upside, I get a 2nd rd pick. What is funny about this is that WG basically traded his 2nd round pick in exchange for the rights to Nunez, Herrera, and a 6th round pick if you look at it from a net standpoint.'

-Seung-hwan "The final Boss" Oh, RP, STL to Guru for 4.18: I admit, I definitely sold Oh at an extreme discount. Oh is an elite closer...good for Guru. The market for closers is generally a 3, but I didn't want to overplay my hand either. Sure, I could've potentially extracted more for him, but I had other deals to make and I didn't want to drag it out to the deadline. Early bird gets the worm.

-Domingo Santana, OF, MIL to GO for 4.08: I don't get why the market all of the sudden got hot for Domingo after I traded him. Good for GO. He should be kept with an on base % north of .340 and the power upside he possesses. In Milwaukee. Should make for a great fantasy starter. Really happy for GO that he made this move.

-Robbie Ray to MJD for his 2018 S-Draft 3rd: MJD gets a high upside keeper who strikes out a ton of hitters. I get a 3rd round pick in my pocket that I could use if I find myself a buyer.

-Anderson Espinoza from Nerfherders for pick 3.19.

KEEPERS

1B - Eric Hosmer, KC
3B - Nolan Arenado, COL
SS - Carlos Correa, HOU
OF - Gregory Polanco, PIT
OF - Byron Buxton, MIN
UT - Anthony Rendon, 3B, WSH
SP - Stephen Strasburg, WSH
SP - Sean Manaea, OAK
RP - Wade Davis, CHC

The last keeper spot came down to two players:

Sean Manaea and Robbie Ray. I spent a great deal researching the two and came to the conclusion that both are pretty awesome.

-Sean Manaea: Had the biggest 1H-2H GB% jump in the MLB. Pair it with more swinging K's and fewer balls. Post ASB ERA 2.67 over 77 IP with an elite level K/9.

-Robbie Ray: One of the best K/9 ratios in baseball (12 K/9) Ratio backed by a 13% SwK% and Ground Ball % jumped by 10% during the last month.

The x-factor to me was o.co coliseum or whatever its called these days. I figure he will have a better chance of keeping his ratios low whereas Ray might strike a ton of batters out, but still pitches in Arizona and has a career WHIP north of 1.3.

POST-KEEPER THOUGHT

Seeing how the Tosh / BH trade fell through, I agree with an assertion Bean made last season:

Just make the deadlines at the same time.

I get the intention to the 24 hour delay: It allows competing teams to trade one of their prospects in exchange for an extra keeper, while also getting their prospect pick back from the player that departs in the upcoming draft. My question is as follows: How does this help the league?

The rebuilding teams lose a keeper, and lose a pick in the upcoming p-draft to make room for the prospect they acquire. To me, it only helps those competing...which isn't good for the entire league.

I would even move towards a proposal to make it effective 2018 to close this loophole.

PROSPECT DRAFT

As the draft deadline was nearing and I began to input players into the database, I realized Nerfherders had a top 4 pick and 3 top prospects (Bellinger #6 - Law and Frazier #27 - Law and Anderson Espinoza). Honestly? It's something I should've realized when trading Madison Bumgarner for Buxton / Ray last year.

That said, it was pretty clear that Bellinger and Frazier (two top 20 prospects) are going to be kept and, if he wanted Pick #4, Nerf needed to 10th keep one of those 3. I shot Nerf an email and he was open to it. At the time, I really didn't know much about Espinoza other than that he has a high 90's fastball, is 19, and has Pedro Martinez like upside. Furthermore, I get a universal top 40 prospect who would go in the 1st round had he been available. Nerf picks up some extra s-draft capital and retains that #4 pick in a deep draft. Win / win all-around.

The prospect draft is what I enjoy the most about G20. Everybody is just about on equal playing field attempting to unearth the next superstar keeper. I changed my strategy up by splitting my pitching and hitting prospects rather than lump them together like last year. I figured I was going to take a positional player given that I had Espinoza in fold.

Positional
Ronald Acuna (1.13 - Me)
Kevin Maitan (1.02 - MJD) - The ultimate package to dream on. Could be the next Miguel Cabrera.
Nick Senzel (1.04 - Meatwads) - The consensus #1 prospect available.
Vlad Guerrero, Jr. (1.03 - bmd) - Another bat to dream on. 17 and already showing potential to be the next star MLB bat
Kyle Tucker (1.10 - Thumqer) - Next Hunter Pence?
Lazaro "Lazarito" Armenteros (Not Drafted) - Thought long and hard about him...but ultimately went Ray.
Corey Ray (1.19 - Me)
Mickey Moniak (1.01 - Judy) - Think Christian Yelich, but with more power.
Zach Collins (1.06 - BH) - I called this one from the beginning. Power Bat? Check. Gets on base? Check. Sign BH up.
Willy Adames (1.09 - Meatwads) - Just an all around good player. Centerpiece from the David Price trade
Ian Happ (1.14 - MJD) - Was my "fallback" pick at 19.
Isan Diaz (2.05 - Tree) - Good upside play. Gets on base and has 20+ HR power.
Chance Sisco (2.13 - Tree) - Wasn't on my radar until I read John Sickel's review of him calling him an "on base machine".
Alex Verdugo (2.02 - Judy) - Fine player. Thought he could ascend more amongst the rankings than he actually did and was hoping to trade like Species did with Brinson.
Yusniel Diaz (Undrafted) - 8 figure bonus given by the Dodgers back in 2015. Thought he could be a good upside play.

**Blake Rutherford (1.16 - BH) - No revisionist history here. I flat out slept on him and didn't re-read Keith Law who has him #22. BP had him below where I even looked, so I moved along...I was so obsessed with getting Acuna that I honestly ignored him.

Pitching
Jason Groome (1.17 - Thumqer) - Will write more below
Yadier Alvarez (1.12 - Pete N.) - Was surprised how far he fell...one day he might be taken before Kershaw in redrafts.
Cal Quantrill (Undrafted) - my boy.
Sandy Alcantara (Undrafted) - 100mph fastball. More of a project, but if he can harness it...there is upside of a SP1. Floor is that of a 2015/16 Archie Bradley though (aka trash).
Brent Honeywell (2.07 - Bean) - BP top 25 prospect. Excellent Command. Boring, but will be a solid pro.
Michael Kopech (1.08 - Tree) - As a Sox fan, I want to see him succeed. I question his secondary offerings and see him more as an elite closer (I know I'm in the minority).
AJ Puk (2.12 - MJD) - Was in contention for the top pick in the rule 4 draft. Pitches in Oakland.
Adrian Morejon (Mr. Irrelevant Prospect Pick 3.02 - BH) - Big bonus out of Cuba. Pitches in San Diego. Lots to dream on.

The Prospect Draft
You did not read incorrectly. Acuna was the #1 rated player on my board. Only a handful of prospects (already owned) I would select over him...the trade to get Acuna is what I'll elaborate on.

Once Blue Hen acquired pick 1.16 (Devers Trade), I got nervous that he might be in the market for Acuna as well. The last thing I wanted was to see his monthly updates about Acuna's progress in the minors (like Devers) and I did nothing to get the guy I coveted so highly.

I sent messages to MJD, Pete (ttucowboy), and lastly, Meatwads, looking to move up in the draft. Pete was ecstatic that Yadier Alvarez was potentially, and unexpectedly, available so told me that he wasn't trading the pick should Alvarez fall. MJD was open to it, but wanted to see who would be available when he was on the clock before considering it. I then sent Meatwads a message seeing what he thought about trading his pick. Meatwads was very excited that Yadier Alvarez could, also, be available to him.

When Pete selected Alvarez, Meatwads was sent back to the drawing board. It dawned on me that I had Espinoza and figured it was worth a shot to offer Espinoza for the selection outright. He thought about it for fifteen minutes and said yes. It wasn't my intention to trade Espinoza, but if it got me Acuna, I could live with the net loss of player I would take at 19 (targeting Groome or Quantrill).

Turns out, all that panic was for naught. Blue Hen was going Rutherford all the way. Good chance Acuna would've fallen to me anyhow...good for Meatwads as well securing a fangraphs favorite. Hopefully I don't end up with an egg on my face

39.13 - Ronald Acuna, OF, ATL
As Thumqer said to me after I drafted him "Acuna Matata!" The best way to describe him is Victor Robles...but with about 10-15 more HR / year. My type of prospect.

As Baseball Prospectus said "Acuna is a full season being all over the prospect map, and it would've happened in 2016 if not for a torn thumb ligament that required surgery...he shows that should serve him well in the future...He doesn't look the part of a prodigious home-run hitter, but there's plus power in the profile due to an explosive swing. He has an advanced approach at the play with good tracking and pitch recognition skills, and he's a plus runner with a decent chance to stick in center. He's still a long way away from the majors...but if the whole package comes together, there's all-star potential there. You might just have to wait until the 2020's to see him in the Midsummer classic."

From Keith Law: He does have the ceiling of an elite player -- a .300/.375 AVG/OB% guy with 15-plus homers and plus-plus defense in center, which could make him a top 10 or 15 player in the league..."

Maybe I'm reading too much into it...but the more I read on him, the more excited that I am to have him on my squad.

***UPDATE*** The other day he hit three (3) "no doubt" Homeruns in consecutive at bats!!!

39.19 - Corey Ray, OF, MIL
I really wanted Ian Happ at this pick due to my gap at 2B. Happ is a higher floor prospect than a high ceiling. Happ is a pretty safe bet to be a 10th keeper in 2018 as well...

My fallback for Ian Happ was Jason Groome...when Thumqer went with Groome at 17, I was disappointed...especially after BH was going with Rutherford all along. I gave up Espinoza for Acuna (who I am smitten with), but now am left with another OF rather than a SP.

I know Quantrill was listed high up there...but what scares me is the Stanford factor. Appel was a consensus top pick, went to Stanford instead of the MLB, and Stanford screwed him up...just like they did with another top prospect and former slizz farmhand, Austin Wilson. I am hesitant to invest in Quantrill this year until I see how he develops and un-f's whatever the Stanford coaches put into his head.

I went back to the board at Baseball Prospectus and Dynasty Guru and took the highest rated player left...Corey Ray (#187 in DG Top 500 and #2 BP Fantasy Player from the 2016 Rule 4 draft):

Don’t let a disappointing pro debut stand in the way of nabbing Ray with a high pick; he still possesses some of the best athleticism available and it has the potential to show up with 15-20 home run power and enough speed to steal 30-plus bags. If that sounds like a potentially exciting fantasy player, it’s because it is.

Hopefully he takes off in the rankings...I'm not married to him, so if you are interested let me know!

***UPDATE*** As I am typing my diary of Robert Gsellman, that should've been my pick. It would've allowed me to get Eduardo Rodriguez while simultaneously calling up Gsellman. I just didn't have him listed in my pitching prospects much like I didn't have Rutherford for whatever reason. Oh well.

Supplemental Draft

G20 has a 1400 inning limit...or as I like to call the draft, "the road to 1400". I knew I needed to hit pitching early and often as I no longer have Jose Fernandez anchoring down my staff. My goal is usually 1250 projected IP as I figure to stream or pickup a starter along the way. At the beginning of the draft, I don't even have 400 innings:

-Stephen Strasburg, 150 IP
-Sean Manaea, 170 IP
-Wade Davis, 50 IP

I knew I needed to go SP with the first pick. I had a pre-draft deal ironed out with WG to trade from 1.19 to 1.16 should Rich Hill been available for selection. I had a feeling Guru might be eyeing him up, so this was a way to secure his rights. Texas Pete played some hold-em and made a deal nobody expected...so much for that. My focus then turned to one other name: John Lackey.

1.19 - John Lackey, SP, CHC
Old Slizz would've taken Dylan Bundy with this selection. I learned my lesson in 2016 the hard way -- I ultimately gave up a championship with aggressive selections rather than conservative selections (Patrick Corbin and Jimmy Nelson)...I wanted to do the same thing here by going with two "breakout" candidates like Bundy an Daniel Norris to start this draft.

In 2016, I already had the "big 3" of MadBum, JoFer, and Stras...there was no need to be aggressive when I should've turned my focus to inning eaters like Lackey while allowing my big dogs to eat. Despite the constant 5 ER stink-bombs from Corbin and Nelson, I was still dominating SP early on. That good fortune did not last all season, and in August-September, I had an implosion like no other where my aces collectively took a dump. There was no consistency to fall back on. Had I made high floor, conservative, selections...there is a good chance I would have been picking 1.20 versus 1.19.

Lackey has been Mr. Consistency since coming back from Tommy John. His fastball is consistently 93-95 and plays on the best regular season team in baseball. His ratios were fine last year, but was a tad unlucky with respect to the W column (Only 11). I'm hoping that rebounds and he can give me 180+, low risk, IP with the same line (more wins, of course :P) as 2016:

3.35 ERA / 1.06 WHIP / 180k / 15+ W?

If Lackey does that, I will have approximately 550 IP logged. I figured I would get one of Bundy or Norris with my next selection to compliment Lackey's 180 IP.

2.16 - Matt Moore, SP, SF
I thought there was a good chance that Dylan Bundy would be selected by the time I picked...so I "moved on" with my expectation of getting Bundy and turned my focus on getting Norris.

Set a 3-man queue of:

Dylan Bundy
Daniel Norris
Eduardo Rodriguez

Like I stated above, I fully expected Bundy to get selected...Great One up at 2.08: Norris, Daniel P DET. Everyone knows that feeling of disappointment when they see a player they wanted, and expected, to get selected just before you had a shot. That was me when I saw Norris get taken by GO. I get this is a keeper league, so young arms are at a premium...Bravo, GO. Congratulations and enjoy Norris.

I worked nightshift the entire draft, so when I got home around 7AM, Jim Johnson was the last selection at 2.09. I thought for a second prior to going to bed...wow, I might actually get Dylan Bundy. Since I didn't turn my phone on silent, I began to get texts that I am on the clock around noon...I pick up my phone, immediately go to draftime and see that Fosten has broken my heart, taking Bundy at 14...two selections before me! I should've expected it as it seemed too good to be true...so I sent Fosten a message and moved on.

Now, I was left wondering if I should choose E-Rod here. I selected E-Rod from the drop down menu, but couldn't bring myself to hit "make draft selection" just yet. I tell Species my pick is likely E-Rod, but to give me some time to make sure he has spot in the rotation.

I came across an article which painted the picture in a favorable light for E-Rod:

The David Price injury may buy Pomeranz some time at the beginning of the year, but with Chris Sale in the mix, somebody will have to go, and provided Steven Wright is healthy, it’ll come down to Pomeranz and Eduardo Rodriguez, an up-and-coming 23-year-old who ended last year with a 3.30 ERA, 1.05 WHIP and 9.6 strikeouts per nine innings in 11 starts while Pomeranz was stinking up the joint.

Nice! Right above that was a link to "Breakouts 2.0".

Breakouts 2.0 welcomes Jose Peraza from sleepers list, brings Dylan Bundy, Joc Pederson into fold

I still had cold feet with respect to Eduardo Rodriguez, so figured I might as well take a look since I pick at 2.19 as well. First name up there is Matt Moore. I always liked Matt Moore when he was in Tampa, but his loss of velocity was the big reason why he struggled when he came back from Tommy John. With the best catcher in the game, Buster Posey, calling the shots, the world saw what he is capable of doing when he shut down the Cubs in the NLDS. Combined with the fact that he is a "breakout candidate", I figured I might as well roll the dice here.

I'm confident that Moore will give me 180+ IP, elite ratios due to the SF bump and Posey.

A couple days later, the following article came out, which affirmed my selection:

Giant Expectations

Furthermore, his velocity is up from 92.3 MPH (last spring) to 94.6 MPH (this spring).

2.19 - Robert Gsellman, SP, NYM

I couldn't believe that I was passing on Eduardo Rodriguez with this pick. While I waited an hour to select, I did my normal readings and brought up the Dynasty Guru 500:

203 - Gsellman
290 - E-Rod

I then went to Razzball:

70 - Gsellman
92 - E-Rod

Then, I came across this blurb on ESPN:

The Mets got more phone calls from GMs asking about the availability of Gsellman than about any other player this offseason, but they correctly and quietly rejected all of the inquiries. Gsellman has had a strong spring to back up his strong finish with the Mets last September.

Gsellman’s four-pitch mix is strong, and his competitiveness and strike-throwing ability make him a strong bet to be the real thing. The Mets’ rotation is deep and strong, and he has had a lot of competition with pitchers such as Seth Lugo and Zack Wheeler, but there is no doubt in my mind that somehow he ends up with 30 starts and an ERA in the 3.00s if he stays healthy. I’m a believer.

3 picks in, the road to 1400 is as follows:

-Stephen Strasburg, 150 IP
-Sean Manaea, 170 IP
-John Lackey, 180 IP
-Matt Moore, 180 IP
-Robert Gsellman, 170 IP
-Wade Davis, 50 IP

900 IP...2/3rds of the way done!

With a rotation spot not guaranteed in Boston, this felt like the safer selection. GO - could you please give us your insight on E-Rod??

If I could get a mulligan, I would've prospected Gsellman at 1.19, taken E-Rod here, and got Solarte at my next pick.

4.08 - Yangervis Solarte, 2B/3B, SD
Eduardo Rodriguez was still there. I was going to go E-Rod with this selection and look to take one of Drury or Solarte at 18...go figure, Tree HAD to take Brandon Drury right before me. I desperately needed a 2B who was going to start all season. Solarte does not have 2B eligibility yet, but it appears that Bud Black is going to let 3rd base come down to Schimpf vs Sapenberg and start Solarte at the keystone.

As per Draftime, Drury has an ADP of 205 while Solarte has an ADP of 208. As much as I wanted to get E-Rod on my team, the more pressing need was to secure my starting 2B for the season. Solarte was the last of my "targets":

-Travis (own in RIBC)
-Drury (3B/OF, will be 2B/3B/OF after 10 games) - that multi-position eligibility plus upside makes for an intriguing play.
-Solarte (3B, will be 2B after 10 games)

If I did not get Solarte, I would be left going with a patchwork 2B (Joe Panik) for the entire year. Filling 2B was a bigger priority than another 150 IP. Solarte is slated to bat in the 3 or 4 hole for San Diego...therefore he should get some nice RBI opportunities while possibly scoring some runs. Using 2016's stats projected over 600 AB, his line would look as follows:

.340 OB% / 81 R / 22 HR / 105 RBI

He does that, we're talking keeper at 2B.

4.18 - Addison Reed, RP, NYM
Honestly? This is the only pick I really dislike. I went with Reed for the guaranteed saves while Familia is out for what I thought would be one month (just found out today - 15 games). Reed's ratios have been great, but I definitely whiffed here in terms of extracting max value.

I really wanted Matt Bush and somehow managed to get 0 shares of him anywhere. He is the best closer in Texas and like Fosten mentioned in his RIBC analysis, I fully expect Dyson (#1 pitch to contact closer in MLB) to lose his job by June to Bush.

5.19 - Kyle Barraclough, RP, MIA
when compiling my list of RP targets, I identified 3 priorty arms:

1) Barraclough
2) Hand
3) Bush

Barraclough is one of eight relievers with 100+ strikeouts in 2016. He just turned 26 and is now entering his prime. With Capps gone, he is only blocked by Ramos...Should Ramos falter, it would be a huge coup for my squad.

Using 2016 as a benchmark, Barraclough is roughly 40 strikeouts more than actual innings pitched. Using the formula of 40 strikeouts times 9 innings, I have now created a surplus of 360 innings (i.e. 2 starters). In other words, it would take 360 innings of starting pitching (i.e. Lackey & Moore) and add 1.0 to their K/9.

8.19 - Brad Hand, RP, SD
Some of you are probably like - Brad Hand?!?! WTF?

He was un-drafted in a ton of leagues, but I didn't want to risk it here. In the 2nd half of 2016, it "clicked" for Brad Hand. The K/9 rose to 11.5 accompanied by an ERA of 2.70 and a 0.93 WHIP. Why? He began to throw his slider for more consistency:

The Closest Thing to Andrew Miller's Slider

He was even better in Sept/Oct (albeit small sample size of 18 IP, the K/9 rose to 13). So far, his spring velocity is up 1.0mph versus 2016's...I can only hope that his spin rate is accompanied by it. If so, I will have possibly secured Andrew Miller Lite in the 8th round.

On the road to 1400, I am now up to 1090 IP (50 Reed, 70 Barraclough, 70 Hand)

9.05 - Charlie Morton, SP, HOU
Morton wasn't even on my radar coming into the draft. Articles were coming in a couple days before I picked, but I didn't want to tip my hand in RIBC. Seemingly out of nowhere, Morton's velocity has increased by 5mph. More velocity = good for fantasy:

Morton's fastball topped out at 97 mph during Saturday's game against the Nationals, Philip Fishman of the Houston Chronicle reports. The right-hander got up to 63 pitches (42 strikes) in his fourth spring start, allowing two unearned runs on three hits and one walk while striking out seven over four innings.
Morton is unfazed by the velocity increase of his fastball, which in previous years sat in the 92 mph range. "It's nice to throw hard, but at the end of the day, it's all about getting outs," he said. And getting outs is what's he's been doing this spring. He's allowed seven hits and four walks over 13 innings and sports a 1.38 ERA with 13 strikeouts. Morton has solidified his hold on the No. 4 spot in the rotation. And if he continues to maintain increased velocity with movement, we could see an uptick in whiffs for a pitcher who's averaged 6.3 K/9 for his career.

Conservatively, I will give him the Rich Hill treatment and 130 IP...leaving me with 1220 IP on the road to 1400.

9.19 - Tyler Saladino, 2B/SS, CHW
Heh, this pick got actually got me a couple compliments. There is no strategy behind Saladino other than he has a guaranteed job with Brett Lawrie gone. Until Solarte gains 2B eligibility, I needed someone to keep the seat warm. Poor Saladino, keeping the seat warm for me as well as the Sox (Moncada). Just hoping he has a hot start and doesn't hurt me too much!

10.19 - Josh Reddick, OF, HOU
Using my RIBC analysis for the pick: My lineup is officially complete. Reddick rounds out my offense as my 4th outfielder...If he can stay healthy, I am looking at a 20 HR bat who gets on base at a clip of .350-360ish...and will be hitting in Houston versus cavernous Oakland. His SLG% is pretty consistent at .450% (in Oakland) and if he can hit those two #'s, he will help my cause in OB% while not hurting it in SLG%. For my last hitter, that is about all I can ask for.

11.19 - Tyler Flowers, C, ATL
Had to choose a catcher at some point, eh? Flowers isn't that great, but I needed a catcher who won't murder my on base. I flirted with playing "stream a catcher" and just punting the position in the draft...but I needed to establish some type of floor. I'm sure he won't be on my team when the season ends.

12.11 - Alen Hanson, 2B, PIT
Kang can't enter the US. Hasnon is out of options. The one time G20 prospect and two time top 100 prospect was more of a throwaway pick than anything else. The hope is that he starts at 2nd and they move Harrison back to 3rd since Freese stinks. This spring, he's shown improved plate discipline (4K in 40 AB) and, should he have a job, is a safe bet for 30+ SB. If not...first cut!

12.19 - Derek Law, RP, SF
I'm going to ignore the ERA / WHIP in Spring Training. Heard somewhere he was a sleeper, so with Carl Edwards, Jr. gone, figured why not?

POST DRAFT THOUGHTS / SELF-ASSESSMENT

Man...I'm really mad at myself for taking Addison Reed in the 4th. The 15 game suspension to Familia is worth what? 5 saves?

Pretty expensive pick considering I could've had E-Rod or Matt Bush (one of my priority targets). If I am to compete with the two juggernauts, BH & Species, I really need my hitting to take off:

-Hosmer needs to get on base like he did in the 1st half. If he didn't hit so many ground balls, he would rival Manny Machado in hitting as his hard contact % is among the best, if not the best in the MLB.
-Solarte needs to do what was posted above.
-Arenado needs to be himself.
-Rendon, I anticipate, will be a top 25 hitter this season hitting in the 5-hole in a loaded Nationals lineup.
-Correa needs to continue on his superstar trajectory
-Polanco needs to be 2016 1st half Polanco (.372 on base)...but all season. He already hurt his shoulder. Womp womp.
-Buxton needs to be not terrible in the OB% department. I'm a little worried that he might flirt with .300 instead of the .330 range. I still think he is going to be great, I just hope it starts as early as 2017.
-One of Heyward or Reddick need to step up as my 3rd OF.

As for pitching:

I have accumulated approximately 950+ IP out of this base:

Strasburg
Manaea
Lackey
Moore
Gsellman
Morton

Based on what I'm reading...it is 17+ points across the board for the starter categories. My RP has always been a strength with respect to the ratios, so if my quintuplet of Davis / Barraclough / Hand / Treinen deliver as expected, that 17 base could go even higher. Crossing my fingers that I can stay in striking distance of the high teens in saves.

It is against my style to trade future assets early in the season for a closer. I don't see it as a worthwhile investment, especially since it is a fluid position league-wide. I like the fact that he throws gas (98+) and has been improving since 2015. That said, the Nats pen has been a mess and, with the emergence of Koda Glover, Treinen could be on a short leash, If he stinks, I will have pissed away a 3rd rounder and, possibly, my shot at a championship.

DRAFT NOTES

Here is the list I keep in my phone, accompanied by small notes on players of interest:

HITTING TARGETS

UT
-Yangervis Solarte
-Tommy Joseph
-Pedro Alvarez
-Kennys Vargas

2B
-Joe Panik: Increased BB/K by more than 0.30 after the All-Star Break. Two have sneaky breakout potential: Joe Panik, Tommy Joseph.
***Had Solarte not been named the starter, I would've taken Panik much much earlier
-Kolten Wong

SS
-Ketel Marte

PITCHING TARGETS

STARTERS
John Lackey - 180 IP - Solid Ratios
Dylan Bundy - Throwing the cutter again. Was great until fatigue caught up to him.
Robbie Ray - Elite 12.0 K/9 backed by 13% SwK%. GB% jumped by 10%
Daniel Norris - sneaky good September supported by a 3.04 2nd half ERA and nearly a strikeout / inning
Eduardo Rodriguez - excellent 2nd half...much like Norris.
Drew Smyly - on 6 days or more rest, elite.
Robert Gsellman
Pom Pom
Matt Andriese
Francisco Liriano
Folty
Matt Boyd
Patrick Corbin
Andrew Triggs
Chad Bettis
Kyle Gibson

RELIEVERS
Kyle Barraclough
Brad Hand
Matt Bush - Stuff backed by skills, attacks the strike zone, handcuffs both lefties and righties. Thriving in high-leverage setup role with TEX: 18/3 K/BB in 17 IP. Three strikeout pitches, including 96-mph FB with movement.
Raisel Iglesias - was a priorty RIBC SP target in 2016. Think move to pen allows him to become the next elite RP.
Sean Doolittle - Increased K/9. Fastball appears back
Joe Kelly - 100mph fastball. Was elite for BOS in the pen
Derek Law
Mychal Givens - sick ratios. don't count on saves
Brad Brach - see above
Arodys Vizcaino
Bruce Rondon
Michael Feliz
Carl Edwards Jr - MLB's highest spin rate on fastballs in '16.
Chris Devenski - Filthy in '16 2H (59/6 K/BB in 53 IP) as multi-inning RP
**TJ** Rubby De La Rosa - ARI bullpen a mess, great raw stuff with GB tilt, 8.0 K/BB vs. RH.
**TJ** Trevor May - MIN pen is also a mess. Hidden by his ugly ERA is a good baseline of K/BB and solid GB%

FINAL THOUGHTS

It is going to be a season-long fight for 1st place. Taking down the obvious favorites in BH and Species fixes to be a very tall order. I recognize that the odds of them winning is very high, but they both can be beat:

Species
-No flaws with his hitting. Just have to hope he falters enough with his pitching. You could point to Sano as his weak link (a good problem to have)...but that's about it.
-His pitching is great. deGrom's fastball is back...hitting 98mph, Cueto will be awesome in SF, and Tanaka projects to be just as good as last year.
-Roark 2016 xFIP could point to regression this season (opportunity for the rest of us)
-Shoemaker was awesome last year, throwing like a top 20 SP before he got hit in the head. If he stays on course, that makes 4 awesome SP and 800 IP for him.
-Zimmerman is the wildcard...if he rebounds to 2015 levels, Species will have created roughly 1200IP plus his closers.
-Could lose points with Dyson and Robertson getting supplanted / traded...I anticipate he will act swiftly and make a trade to rectify that.

In short, Species will be on autopilot most of the season. The floor is so high that I'm left nit-picking with my potential criticism.

BH
-Votto / Altuve / Miggy / Donaldson - BEASTS.
-No speed. Unless Schwarber gets C eligibility, he will be stuck having to play the WW for it...or play matchups with Schwarber / Kemp / Joey Bats and insert a speedster in place every game.
-His OB% is going to be 20...and second won't be close. He can afford to take risks on low OB% speedsters (I.E. Hernan Perez's of the world).
-BH is a little vulnerable in ERA / WHIP. I think Lester, while he will still be awesome, will see some regression with the loss of David Ross (ERA above 3.00).
-Archer and Verlander are going to strike out potentially 500 combined...just have to hope they have a couple brain fart games to hurt the ERA some.
-Paxton is the top breakout pick by just about every publication. With the amount of offseason ink he's got, you'd think he'd be confused with Clayton Kershaw. That said, what if he doesn't break out as everyone anticipates and is the season-long streamer like he was in 2016?
-What if 2016 Gerrit Cole is the norm?
-His bullpen is great...and nobody gets to the WW like BH does...a big reason I traded for Treinen. Not to mention he has his former prospect and elite RP in Nate Jones.

BH will need to create alpha with speed via the WW or a major trade. Again, like with Species, i'm nit-picking as the margin for the rest of us is razor-thin. We can only hope their pitching hits a roadbump...if it does, they will be vulnerable for takeover.

That will allow teams like Tosh, Guru, WG, Fosten, and/or myself to capitalize on it.

On another note, I am happy to see what Thumqer has done with Jaydog's old squad. He has positioned himself nicely for the future with a ton of ultra high upside picks while obtaining a boatload of prospect depth:

2018 Outlook:
C - Zunino (sure he's been hot in the spring...but if he can carry that momentum in the regular season...how is he not a keeper?)
1B - Bird (The chic pick for breakout 1B)
2B - Mondesi (Ton of speed and plays on a team that likes to run).
*Not criticizing you Bean, but could you shed some light to why you didn't 10th keep him?
3B - Castellanos (Perfect fit in the draft)
SS - Crawford (potential 10th Keep)
OF - Kepler (I'm a fan...think he will be a keep for a long time in G20...also has Naquin or Kiermaier...or Eaton again if he doesn't trade)
SP - Quintana (The most consistent SP in the game)
SP - Richards (Perfect landing spot...he's gonna have some rough games, as most pitchers coming back from TJ do...but in 2018...Richards could be a Top 25 arm)
SP - Walker (See my RIBC AAA writeup...another chic breakout pick like Bird)
SP - Wheeler (Boatload of Talent....can he capitalize on it and gain some command?)
SP - De Leon (not a fan of him as a G20 keeper, but he is another nice chip for a rebuilding squad)

At least 11-12 potential keepers...safe bet he finds 9 from that group or via trade. He might even have a seat at the big boys table in 2018!!!

Prospects:
OF Williams (10th Keep)
OF - Meadows (10th Keep)
OF - Tucker
2B / SS - Rodgers
SP - Groome (most upside SP in the minors)

He might have to 10th keep someone who won't be up (Rodgers / Tucker) if he wants a selection in the upcoming draft (like Nerf)...but it's a good problem to have.

This is, by far, my favorite league to participate in due to the level of competition and commitment from all owners. I thoroughly enjoy the non-stop banter that continues long into the off-season. With teams like Great One (especially with Moncada and Devers on the horizon), Khahan, Tree, etc., ready to compete as soon as 2018, I know my window will be open for a short while...so I gotta take my shot!

Come 2019, teams like Meatwads, MJD, Thumqer, bmd, Nerf, Khahan, etc. (ok i'm just throwing props to the rest of the league) will all be built and ready to go... ;)

This league is a marathon, not a sprint...and it will be a dogfight until the end. Best of luck to all!

448

Bean
ID: 27592412
Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 01:09

<447>2B - Mondesi (Ton of speed and plays on a team that likes to run).
*Not criticizing you Bean, but could you shed some light to why you didn't 10th keep him?

I generally give prospects a short leash. Mondesi's performance in 2016 in MLB, in a word, "Sucked". Honestly, I was surprised when KC announced he would be their starting 2B. Given that he went undrafted, it means that 20/20 managers felt he didnt deserve a spot on their rosters. So there you have it.

Bottom line, "you cant steal first".

449

Bean
ID: 27592412
Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 01:22

As an aside, I could have left Mondesi on my Prospect Roster as well, but I thought another dice roll might give me better. Basically it was my 2nd prospect pick that I lost rights to Mondesi for. You mentioned my 2nd pick in your analysis:

Brent Honeywell (2.07 - Bean) - BP top 25 prospect. Excellent Command. Boring, but will be a solid pro.

Hope you're right.

Just wanted to say, I enjoyed your analysis, was a good read. I dont think I have the stamina to put that kind of analysis together myself. Thanks

450

Bean
ID: 27592412
Sun, Apr 02, 2017, 01:34

<448> I guess i am mistaken Thumper apparently wanted Mondesi enought to take him in the 7th round. Hell I would have given him for less than that (obviously).

Was mistakenly looking at my Yahoo leagues where he went undrafted in all 6.

Forum: basePage 20385Subject: Gurupie 20 - 2017 Preseason Discussion

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Page 20385
Subject: Gurupie 20 - 2017 Preseason Discussion