Self Editor

Forum: base
Page 20578
Subject: Dirty Dozen 2021

Posted by: Bean - [304422310] Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:37

THE DIRTY DOZEN LEAGUE CONSTITUTION

MONEY
Entry Fee = $30 (Due by Opening Day) Fee paid to Great One, I believe he prefers paypal.

Payouts = $360
1st Place $245
2nd Place $ 75
3rd Place $ 30
Draftime $ 10*

* - draftime is typically paid by the last place team and not part of the prize pot.

KEEPERS & SCHEDULE
Each team will name 7 keepers. To be eligible, the player must appear on your roster on the last day of the prior season. The 2021 season starts on April 1. Keepers will be due by March 15 at 11:59pm PST. The draft will begin March 16.
SETTINGS
Categories & Positions
Roster Positions: C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF, OF, OF, Util, Util (new)
SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, P, P, P, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, DL, DL, DL
Batters Stat Categories: Runs (R), Home Runs (HR), Runs Batted In (RBI), Stolen Bases (SB), Batting Average (AVG)
Pitchers Stat Categories: Wins (W), Saves (SV), Strikeouts (K), Earned Run Average (ERA), (Walks + Hits)/ Innings Pitched (WHIP)

Next Day Transactions - Daily/Tomorrow
Waivers - Continual Rolling List

Trade Deadline
Last available date offered by Yahoo (usually about a month before season ends)

Trade Review
Commish review, will push through in about 24 hours unless anyone raises any questions/concerns. Generally the next morning unless a trade was accepted the evening before.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:38

2020 Standings:

01 Barrymore Flyfishers
02 Da Bomb Squad
03 HOLT
04 Astade
05 GO SecondCity Saints
06 Perm Dudes
07 homerunners123
08 Super twins plus 1
09 Khahan's Killers
10 Bean's Browns
11 Hoboken Zephyrs
12 GoatLocker's Beasts

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:43

Bean's Keepers:

J.T. Realmuto Phi - C
Luke Voit NYY - 1B
Giancarlo Stanton NYY - OF
Austin Meadows TB - OF
Tommy Pham SD - OF
Sonny Gray Cin - SP
Hyun Jin Ryu Tor - SP

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:45

From 2020 thread <339>:

***Trade announcement***
Khahan trades Trea Turner to HomeRunners

Home Runners trades Pete Alonso and Blake Snell to Khahan

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:54

The only unambiguous keeper list I found in the 2020 thread <343> was for Astade:

Astade's Keepers:

Juan Soto
Manny Machado
Xander Bogaerts
Corey Seager
Randy Arozarena
Gerrit Cole
Max Fried

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 12:33

I haven't found record of any 2021 or beyond pick trades. Let me know if I missed something.

Astade
ID: 2820112
Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 13:00

Thanks Bean!

GO
ID: 517342812
Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 14:13

I put our IP limit back to 1250... was it 1300? I don't even know honestly. RIBC using 1250 so figured that was solid.

No max games on hitters is how we've had that set up since our inception.

Khahan
ID: 550201221
Tue, Mar 02, 2021, 14:32

Not sure on my last keeper slot. Torn between Strasburg and Gurriels Jr. Willing to package them in a 2:1 though.

loki
ID: 191562614
Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 11:44

Keepers (for now):
R. Acuna, OF
V. Guerrero, Jr., 3B
Y. Alvarez, OF
P. Goldschmidt, 1B
A. Rizzo, Util
M. Conforto, OF
W. Beulhler, SP

Astade
ID: 2820112
Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 12:23

Buehler? Buehler? Buehler?

loki
ID: 191562614
Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 13:06

I meant Koufax.

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 19:35

Any chance we could get our trade processed? Makes marking keepers and figuring out roster needs much easier.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 20:02

Khahan,

Frankly I was not familiar with the mechanics of doing trades before keepers are declared. I never bother in other leagues I commish. Coupling my ignorance with not wanting to overstep my authority, I simply didn't process your e-mail request. Deferring to GO.

To me, it's just a nicety for the guys who are involved in the trade. It does nothing to help me prep the draft.

That said, I took a look, and saw that ADD/DROPS were available now. You should be able to see your post trade roster now.

No guarantee I will do the same for others who have trades pre-draft. I am running four drafts this season while preparing for draft for six teams. I likely wont have the time.

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sat, Mar 06, 2021, 22:59

Thanks Bean.

GO
ID: 517342812
Sun, Mar 07, 2021, 14:40

Yeah, I haven't felt the need to do the trades on Yahoo previously, I just assign them when locking in the keepers. I can rearrange at that point easily.

holt
ID: 19254821
Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 22:54

7 keepers is always freakin painful. is there no support for expanding that number?

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 08, 2021, 23:23

I prefer 6

dpr
ID: 355242518
Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 08:36

While a higher number would support my team most years I would worry this league is already too stuck in top tier/bottom tier and that would only further the impact.

wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 09:26

I would prefer less keepers as well.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 10:58

The 2021 season starts on April 1. Keepers will be due by March 15 at 11:59pm PST. The draft will begin March 16.
Less than a week from the deadline, and we only have three keeper declarations. I recommend you post something soon, even if you are in trade negotiations. You can always update before the deadline.

If you don't post by the deadline you get zero keepers. I don't want to hear excuses. You've been warned.

wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 11:53

Lots of keepers posted in the other thread.

Tatis
Devers
Springer
Judge
Biggio
Giolito
Scherzer

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 15:17

Read what I very clearly said in <4> above. When you post your keepers, i will not try to interpret ANY caveats. Lets not pretend anything here. I am not a fortune teller, i cannot read your mind.

Post 7 players as your keepers with no ifs ands or buts coupled with them. Make it so clear that these are your official keepers that NOBODY can misinterpret them. Otherwise you haven't submitted ANY keepers yet.

AM I CLEAR?

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Tue, Mar 09, 2021, 22:51

Khahan's Keepers

Trevor Story
Ozzie Albies
Pete Alonzo
Yoan Moncada
Lourdes Gurriel Jr
Jack Flaherty
Blake Snell

Tree
ID: 161118314
Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 18:21

as a reminder - i am looking to deal!

my entire roster is a roster of keepers.

Mike Troutfishing in America
Jose Can You See My Haircut Ramirez
Mr. Met Francisco Lindor
Kyle "60-60" Tucker
Brandon "Get" Lowe
Matt Olsen Twins
Big Sal E Perez
Joey, Ernest, and Julio Gallo
Ramon y queso Laureano
What's our vector Victor Robles
Nick Solak: The Night Stalker
Leody deodi deadi Tavares
David Fletcher in the Rye
Brian Not Ryan or Ian Anderson
Shane Justin Beieber
Corbin Burnes-en
The Zach Plesac Attack
Raisel Julio and Enrique Iglesias
Ryan Elvis Pressly
Taylor Swift Kenny Rogers
Pablo Honey Lopez
Mike Ace Soroka
Justin Time Verlander
Anthony 5 Pound Bass
Tanner Boyle Houck
Spencer Turnbull at Four
Dylan Cease and Desist

seriously, i feel like i have close to 20 keepers there, so please feel free to email me if there's someone you like....

upgrades, picks, upgrades AND picks, the Barrymore Flyfisher Bodega is open for business.

holt
ID: 491153264
Thu, Mar 11, 2021, 19:00

If anyone is interested in moving a draft pick for JD Martinez, Teoscar Hernandez, or Gavin Lux, I'm listening.

holt
ID: 491153264
Thu, Mar 11, 2021, 19:01

betts
mondesi
marte
jd martinez
kershaw
l.castillo
woodruff

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Mar 11, 2021, 23:44

Four days until deadline and only these six have submitted keepers:
<2> Bean
<4> Astade
<9> Loki
<21> Wiggs
<23> Khahan
<26> Holt

I still need keepers from:
Barrymore Flyfishers
Da Bomb Squad
GO SecondCity Saints
Perm Dudes
homerunners123
GoatLocker's Beasts

Tree
ID: 161118314
Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 10:57

Mike Trout
Jose Ramirez
Shane Bieber
Francisco Lindor
Kyle Tucker
Brandon Lowe
Corbin Burnes

dpr
ID: 355242518
Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 14:00

Keepers:
Yelich
Bellinger
Turner
Bregman
Rendon
Darvish
Franco

Willing to move Lynn or Hendricks for picks or in combination with an above player.

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 08:10

Can we 'start' the draft in draftime so its open and we can set queues? Tomorrow is a clinical day for me meaning I'm up at 5:30a and on the hospital floor until 3:30p. I will NOT be around to make any picks and if we can't access it until tomorrow I will NOT have a queue set to make picks for me.

GO
ID: 531581023
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 08:30

Keepers
Freeman
Arenado
Harper
Luis Robert
Bichette
Nola
Gallen

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 09:45

<30> I can't start the draft until I load the keepers. I can't load the keepers until everyone posts them. I will be in bed when the deadline comes. So, unless you have some trick to share, I can't help you by starting the draft early.

I plan to start the draft with no clock for at least 24 hours. I expect to start the four hour clock during the nightly pause Wednesday night/Thursday morning.

You draft right after me, if you want to e-mail me a four man queue, I can make your first pick for you. There is very little chance that your queue for 1.04 could influence my decision at 1.03. Later rounds, maybe. Hell, for that matter, it won't influence anyone in the first three picks. Just post it here, hehe.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 10:01

The 2021 season starts on April 1. Keepers will be due by March 15 at 11:59pm PST. The draft will begin March 16.
Though, I am sure none of you will wait until the last second to post your keepers, take note that the time above is not Daylight Savings Time.

The following have posted keepers:
<2> Bean
<4> Astade
<9> Loki
<21> Wiggs
<23> Khahan
<26> Holt
<28> Tree
<29> dpr
<31> GO

I still need keepers from:
Da Bomb Squad
Perm Dudes
GoatLocker's Beasts

Beware the Ides of March

GO
ID: 517342812
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 10:32

To confirm -- Da Bomb, Goat and PD have also not selected keepers on Yahoo (many other didn't either). I will shoot out an email to them to post here ASAP.

Perm Dude
ID: 3310302519
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 11:07

Keepers:

José Abreu CWS - 1B
Tim Anderson CWS - SS
Nelson Cruz Min - Util
Trevor Bauer LAD - SP
Zack Greinke Hou - SP
Chris Paddack SD - SP
Sandy Alcantara Mia - SP

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 18:52

Marcell Ozuna
DJ LeMahieu
Eugenio Suarez
Gleyber Torres
Jacob deGrom
Kenta Maeda
Carlos Carrasco

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 20:57

Since keepers are due and the draft starts first thing tomorrow morning I did what I could to scrape together a round 1 and 2 queue and emailed it to Great One to make those picks.

Because draftime isn't open I can't go in and set queues, see keepers etc. I can't even set a designated picker!

Is there any chance we could push the start of the draft back until Wednesday March 17 - just 1 day?

Honestly since keepers aren't even submitted I cannot do a complete round 1 queue. I'll be in bed and asleep before the deadline and if there are any changes or last minute submitals it could affect who is or isn't available which could affect my queue.

This unavoidable. I wake up at 5:30am tomorrow and I wont be back home until after 4. I'll be working on the psych ward so I cannot have any personal belongings like a phone with me. And since draftime is not available to do anything in, I cannot utilize any of the resources to help me out.

GO
ID: 531581023
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 21:28

Lets just push it a day, timeline is still fine. Open it up and give everyone tomorrow to look things over.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 22:04

From <32> above:

I plan to start the draft with no clock for at least 24 hours. I expect to start the four hour clock during the nightly pause Wednesday night/Thursday morning.

I don't see anything that tells me that this is not still a good plan.

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 22:25

is there a chance to open the draft up now so we could more easily review everything? way easier to see it in that format than a scatter shot of postings -

no clock, but no reason to not open the draft now?

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 23:02

Let's quit trying to reinvent the wheel guys, there is a reason for this calendar, I posted it on 26 FEB, why are we trying to change it now?

Goatlocker has not yet posted his keepers. Until he does, I cannot post them to Draft Time. Until that is done, I cannot open the draft.

I HAVE loaded everyone's keepers to Yahoo. You can see them at Draft Results. The player's tab shows only players who are not designated keepers. If you take a guess at what Goatlocker might keep, you can determine who might be available for the first round of the draft. You can do that right now, at your leisure. You can create a queue and just posted to the draft tomorrow morning.

I really don't know how to make this any easier for you guys. Someone else can do this next year.

GoatLocker
Dude
ID: 060151121
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 01:36

So sorry guys.
Been looking at Baseball League forum for all my other teams.

Keepers are:
Whit Merrifield 2B KC
Kris Bryant 3B CHC
Javier Baez SS CHC
Eloy Jimenez OF White Sox
Tyler Glasnow SP TB
Patrick Corbin SP Washington
DinelsonLamet SP SD

Khahan
ID: 22258164
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 05:58

Post 39 - that makes sense/works. Somehow I missed the “no clock” part. If it gets to me I’d prefer to make my pick on my own, so please disregard the emailed queue.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 06:43

Couldn't sleep. Loaded Goatlocker's keepers into draft time and yahoo. Then I started the draft.

Unfortunately I had forgotten to load Da Bomb's keepers in Draft Time. I removed DaBomb's seven keepers from the list of available players in Draft Time. DaBomb's keepers wont be in his team list, but also cannot be drafted by someone else. I hope you can handle that DaBomb.

So, the draft is underway. I will load your draft picks to Yahoo at least once a day before I go to bed. Periodically check "Draft Results" to make sure I haven't made a mistake with your team. As I load them, they will be removed from the "Available Players" in the players tab at Yahoo. This should make that a useful tool when making your picks.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 07:17

I sent an e-mail to Fred, sysadmin for Draft Time. Asking him if he can do anything to help with DaBomb's keepers. He will likely offer to reset the draft.

Meanwhile, check your keepers and the draft order to ensure I didn't enter those wrong. Load a queue and proceed as normal for your first round, but keep a record of both the queue and any picks you end up making.

This will be resolved before we start a clock.

Tree
ID: 161118314
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 08:36

Meanwhile, check your keepers and the draft order to ensure I didn't enter those wrong. Load a queue and proceed as normal for your first round, but keep a record of both the queue and any picks you end up making.

with the draft stopped, we can't do this.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 09:15

Was working with Fred to restart the draft. DaBomb should see his keepers now. Appears the reset left my queues in place, as well as all of the keepers I already input. Mind racing about the potential there.

Anyway, we should be all set now. Let me know if you see anything amiss ASAP.

As an aside, not sure if you all know it or not, but, in Draft Time, you can change the position assigned to a player by clicking on your name to get a list of all of your players. Next you click on the player's name in that list to change his position. Might help if you use the grid function to see what you need.

astade
ID: 50263122
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 10:05

Thanks Bean!

GoatLocker
Dude
ID: 060151121
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 11:38

Sorry again for the delay all.
I did make my first pick on draftline.

Best of luck all.

GL

GO
ID: 517342812
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 14:42

Khahan will be available in 1-2 hours so lets just let him make his own pick. If he doesn't show I have a queue for him this evening.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 15:01

The first round is always slow to get rolling. If we make it to the end of Round 1 by tomorrow night, we are on schedule.

One has to assume that 24 hours is long enough for anyone to post a one round queue to Draft Time. For that reason, I have confidence we will get the first round done by tomorrow night when I begin a four hour clock.

By the time we get to the fourth round or so, I just watch the projected finish in Draft time to trigger a clock reduction. Normally the four hour clock will get you through the entire draft. Being skipped is pretty good motivation to stay on top of things.

holt
ID: 491153264
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 17:33

my draft software is a little screwy. so GL has Lamet and not F Reyes? yahoo isn't showing me Lamet in the keeper list.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 17:54

Hope you muddled through the confusion OK, Holt.

I have corrected the Reyes/Lamet snafu.

I've also loaded players through pick 1.10 into Yahoo.

holt
ID: 491153264
Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 18:18

Thanks Bean!

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 10:11

Tomorrow is another 'no access' day for me from 5:30a to 4:30p. I've set wiggs as a designated picker. Thanks for the help. I'm going to try to set 2 rounds worth of queues for him to pick by. He picks right after me so that should help speed things along going back to back.

astade
ID: 50263122
Wed, Mar 17, 2021, 18:39

always fun waiting for the guy ahead of you to pick.... and then he takes the only person in your queue. thanks go ;)

Wiggs
ID: 4510112611
Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 08:09

So Khanan left a queue and made me the designated picker but when I go there it says unavailable. I have messaged fred to see if there is anything he can do. Waiting to hear back. If not we are frozen until he gets back

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:34

Drinking my first cup of coffee now (Mountain Time).

Pretty sure I can make it for him, Wiggs. Sent you an e-mail concerning it. Will make the pick based on your response.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:57

OK, took his top guy, Victor Robles. We're moving again.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 10:59

If you all hadn't noticed, we have a four hour clock now.

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Mar 18, 2021, 21:06

Appreciate your efforts Bean! And anyone else doing behind the scenes work.

Pardon the wait in submitting my keepers. I was awaiting news on Carrasco’s elbow soreness which appears to be behind him 🙄

Tree
ID: 161118314
Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 10:38

never mind my personal hatred of weekend clocks, maybe we oughta slow our roll to give PD a chance to pick - one of the main reasons i hate weekend clocks is the friday night/saturday morning time out that can happen to folks, which is what looks like happened here.

if it gets to me and he hasn't picked yet, i will be using up as much time as possible to allow him the opportunity.

Perm Dude
ID: 452112010
Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:11

Thanks, tree--picked. Didn't realize the clock was still running and was leisurely this morning.

Khahan
ID: 22258164
Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 12:36

We’re making really good time on the draft. One reason I always love this league. Everybody is in it

Perm Dude
ID: 452112010
Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 16:59

What's the rule in the Dirty Dozen for Shohei Ohtani?

He's drafted already as a hitter but not as a pitcher. Are we splitting the guy, in this league? Or it he one player?

Dpr
ID: 28292016
Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 17:09

He is two distinct players

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 13:29

Draft is over and I have loaded all of your players to Yahoo. Undrafted players are on waivers until 26 MAR, and I have adjusted waiver priority to Reverse of Draft Order.

If you find a mistake, let me know ASAP. These corrections will end my terms of service.

Good Luck this season.

loki
ID: 122431714
Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 15:44

Thank you for your time and effort.
Good luck this season!!

holt
ID: 491153264
Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 16:15

Thanks Bean.

Khahan
ID: 551581418
Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 16:44

My team looks good. Thanks Bean.

GO
ID: 517342812
Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 09:30

Thanks Bean, looking good.

Looking to move Arenado for a comparably ranked pitcher, Gallen's injury hurting me as I was already thin on pitching.

dpr
ID: 355242518
Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:40

My team looks good. Thanks for getting everything organized and updated.

I made the same complete last year but it appears that once again all the best 2b-eligible players are held by a few top managers (11 of top 12 held by 3 managers...) leaving a few of us with some larger gaps. I have two risky option, with playing time concerns, but if those dont play out I may be looking to trade for an upgrade.

astade
ID: 93141721
Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 22:14

Is there any interest in having our league move from batting average to on-base percentage in future seasons?

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 22:46

I'm not against it, but I'd suggest we do that for 2023 if we decide to go that way. Give people time to adjust keepers.

The idea has come up before.

astade
ID: 93141721
Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 22:57

Thanks Greg. Good suggestion for pushing out implementation a few years so it doesn't affect keepers.

I don't remember this idea coming to a vote in previous seasons. If it did, can you point me to the discussion or vote? I'd be curious to learn why it didn't pass.

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 10:30

Its been quite a few years, maybe 8 since we last discussed it? Maybe more?

holt
ID: 491153264
Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 14:19

Seems like to me if you move to OBP then you should move to SLG as well. I'm ok either way, but I agree that a change like that should move out two years.

GO
ID: 517342812
Mon, Apr 19, 2021, 07:07

I've always like OBP, but don't like SLG in RIBC... I have always just preferred seeing that my guy got a HR. And I never know if he did or not in RIBC and I hate that.

Khahan
ID: 551581418
Mon, Apr 19, 2021, 09:02

agree GO. I'm fairly neutral on BA vs obp, but really really dont like slg.

holt
ID: 491153264
Mon, Apr 19, 2021, 17:16

I think sticking with batting average makes sense if you stick with HR. why give credit for a walk if you aren't going to give credit for a triple, you know?

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Mon, Apr 19, 2021, 18:19

I prefer to keep as is. And I think any potential major change in scoring should be further than a couple years out given that we can carry keepers longer. A lot of us play in the RIBC leagues and I like that there are different categories where players hold different values in each, not necessarily with one being better than the other. For AVG vs OBP, there is still merit to AVG with a walk not being quite equal to a hit, with a hit increasing your performance in other categories for HR, RBI, runs. And if your player walks, it’s not for naught as it can lead to runs and it’s better than getting out. Similar thought can be applied to our HR instead of SLG, with extra base hits still holding value as they increase the chances for runs and RBI. (And a side note that one lame thing about OBP is sac flies bring it down).

holt
ID: 491153264
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 04:44

This is the only league I am in that uses AVE and HR so I don't really feel compelled to change it up either. I also don't mind obp/slg. would prob vote against obp/hr.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 09:21

I am open to use whatever hitter stats people would like, but I prefer not to change things just to change.

Pitching stats are a different thing though. We changed W to QS in the Poliboard League a couple years ago. Big mistake in hindsight, so few pitchers lasting long enough to get the QS now. The trend to fewer innings was beginning just as we approved the change.

I prefer S+H over saves because I do not enjoy chasing closers. Inevitably the same guys in every league get all of the newly anointed closers. They don't even bother to draft them.

Unlike most of the perennial winners, I do not wait for the next update that tells me "so and so" got a save, and make a pick up when the news breaks. I wake up, get a cup of coffee, pick up new players and set my lineups. I look at the results daily in the evening, often before the West Coast is done playing.
My daily rhythm does not promote a strong relief corps in this competition, so I have to pay too much for saves during the draft.

For this and many other reasons, I would prefer that the rule change we look at as a priority is that nobody is a free agent, every player must be acquired through the waiver process. Is it just me, or do you guys actually enjoy declaring the winner by lowest stop watch reading on running to the PC/smart phone? I haven't found a single league here at Rotoguru that uses "all players to waivers" setting, yet it is the default on Yahoo public leagues.

.

GO
ID: 33342229
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:42

I did a waivers every day league and hated it. I couldn't set my team for the next day with any sense of certainty because I was never sure which waiver claims I would win if I had 4 different claims in.

And I'd spend all this extra time organizing different scenarios like first 4 claims are this SP and dropping a particular guy, and in case that one wins... I need to line up a catcher using these different alternative players. But If I happen to lose this position guy, now I need to be sure to pick up X or I've left myself with no SS...

I'm not against Saves and Holds as Saves have become sort of ridiculous. But I also don't feel anyone is winning this league by running to the wire. There were decent closers all through the draft -- your Melancon pick and my Kennedy proved that. Just draft a few and you'll finish middle of the pack at least in Saves.

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:37

I think I would be OK with all players on waivers if it’s what the majority of the league wants, but I agree with GO that it would require more work setting waivers with conditional claims and then checking back in after waivers run to re-set lineups. I also don’t see daily waivers solving the issue described because if news breaks that night, is one still setting waivers that same night before they run 3AM EDT? The change would then probably need to be weekly or twice weekly waivers.

I think our league and roster sizes are too small for saves+holds. I would really put off drafting relievers if we had S+H as it would be too easy to find guys who accumulate these stats. I have a quick trigger when it comes to making closer pickups, but a lot of the time they are speculative adds before any official announcement based on tendencies.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 13:22

<84> Your argument seems to be, but I stream pitchers and catchers, you gonna take that away from me?

For the greater good of parity, YES. I don't think streaming was what was envisioned for this game back when all transactions cost you $ in just about every fantasy sports league I played in. Somehow as soon as there was no longer a cost for streaming, everyone started believing that the game is supposed to be about that. That doesn't mirror baseball management in any way. But hey, what do I know.

GO
ID: 517342812
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 13:44

I don't need to be streaming to want to pick up an SP and catcher the next day, maybe someone got hurt... and have to think of the contingencies of if my SP claim happens to be successful, then I need to line up someone else for the other pickup cause I don't to inadvertently drop both of my guys with SS eligibility or whatever the situation.

We all do this Tuesdays during NFL season, waiver claim roulette... and that takes enough time. I can't imaging doing it on a daily basis.

I need a catcher tomorrow. Let me just add a catcher and set my lineup.

We can't really stream catchers for example here without "Same Day" transactions like other leagues such as G20 now has. Because half the time the guy isn't even in the starting lineup.

dpr
ID: 355242518
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 15:58

In terms of category changes I would be indifferent on changing to OBP but would be against SLG and S+H for some of the reasons stated. Id add that the more you deviate from standard categories the more you require custom rating systems and ADP sources which could indicate skill to manage, but also just translates to $.

I would be against the permanent waivers as setting claims would prove to be frustrating and limit ability pick up players. If we want to prevent streaming hitters, we can simply have a GP cap which is fairly unique to be lacking in this league. I also am not sure it was realized but we lowered the innings cap which will reduce the benefit of streaming and accumulating innings in a league where the average manager came in over 100 innings under in prior seasons. Neither of those address the closer issue or being the first to jump on the news but do limit benefits of streaming without impacting ability to manage.

I am not sure how much we want to penalize people for being active but this league clearly has a large divide.

Now what do I have to do to get a few more IL spots. I have 6 currently and had to drop 2 despite having another just return and a separate start skipped.

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 16:33

I'd be in favor of S+H. We had a close vote a few years ago in this league, but it failed then. That same year in 8 Men Out we switched to S+H. It did exactly what I envisioned - opened up more players and took the emphasis off that category - to me it made S feel just as important as every other category instead of unbalanced in importance.

As for pitchers and streaming - if the problem is streaming do we need to look at lowering the IP cap again, maybe? We just did 2? years ago to 1250.
I have 5 SP and enough relievers to have every RP and P slot filled every single day and right now I'm running a few IP short. That's after streaming a few spots starts.

I feel like with the way baseball has changed its approach to SP, fantasy leagues are still uncertain about things like IP caps. Maybe 1250 is right where we need to be, maybe not. Is it worth lowering it again?

For the 'all players on waivers' debate, I understand where Bean is coming from. Yes, it can be problematic when fastest on the draw to respond to news gets the newly annointed reliever or positional player or call up. But I think every player on waivers every day will have its own batch of problems and personally I'd rather have the system we have now. I think having every single move have to go through waivers, wait to see if it works, being screwed if it doesn't, not being to able to fix rosters when that happens, needing to check back in before game time to set line ups that could have been set the day before - I'd much prefer to lose out on a player (but still have a chance) than deal with all that. Both systems have their flaws.

Bean
ID: 304422310
Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 00:10

<90> How bout, rather than decreasing IP, we increase roster spots to account for the way pitching is done now in MLB. 162 games X 9 innings is 1458 IP.....you are aware of this right? You can quibble about visiting teams only pitching 8, rain shortened games, and extra innings, but 1450 is a good number.

As to IL, do the majors have a limit to how many guys can be on IL?

GO
ID: 517342812
Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 12:56

I mean, Astade you had 2nd most moves last year and 2nd most this year so far... 4th most the year before, but yes Da Bomb has generally has more than double the next spot, agreed.

Seems like the easy fix is just cap moves at like 100 for the year (or a 162?)...

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 13:29

Not more than double than holt! I didn’t know after 18 years we had those thinking the league was a joke. One could say another issue are those who make single digit moves (which I have no problem, let people manage how they want), but if most want to make the league more relaxed that is fine by me. I am in a league with twice weekly waivers with a FAAB and it works well. A FAAB has an inherent max moves if a minimum bid is $1, and waivers running 2 or 3 times a week would remove daily streaming.

GO
ID: 517342812
Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 13:58

Better active than inactive for sure.

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 17:32

The problem isn't too many moves or too few moves. Its a rather large disparity in the amount of moves.
We had this issue in G20 a few years ago. I'll make the same suggestion here as I made there:
Set the moves cap (if we have one) to deter the most egregious behavior but not to limit everybody else. (in that case we had one person with over 600 moves, 30-4 with 150-200 and a range of people with something like 40 to 150)
While it can easily be argued that Holt and Da Bomb make an inordinate amount of moves, its only problematic because the rest of the league doesn't.
Is making 275 and 213 moves in a season a bad thing? (btw, I'm looking at 2019 for these numbers, the last full season we had). Only in comparison to a league where the next closest number of moves was 88.

To be honest, I'd argue that the rest of us (myself included) should step it up a little bit before I'd argue that Holt and Da Bomb are doing anything wrong or that needs changed.

Wiggs
ID: 4510112611
Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 17:39

I personally do not like to make a ton of moves. I like to pick a team amd give it a chance. To each their own in my opinion

Tree
ID: 161118314
Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 20:32

I haven't found a single league here at Rotoguru that uses "all players to waivers" setting,

because it's an awful idea. that's why no one uses it.

100

holt
ID: 491153264
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 08:18

I don't think we have a "rushing to pick up a free agent" problem. We only have 2 RP slots and 3 P slots. How many closers can one person horde? I've passed on closers that were just sitting there in the FA pool. I just cut a closer because of roster issues I'm having. Want a closer? I'll trade you one if you will part with a player of equal value.

Personally, other than to double check my lineup before games, I just check in around 1am each night to see if I want to make a move before the 2am cutoff for the next day. I don't get push notifications for baseball news. I prefer not to make any moves, but, we have a tight roster size and today's baseball players are made of glass. If I cut a player, 95% of the time it's a player I don't want to cut.

Looking at transaction counts so far this season, I see several teams with only 3 or 4 moves, which blows my mind. I have 21 moves. Why? Teoscar Hernandez, covid since week 1, Mondesi, IL, Marte, IL, Hayes, IL, Pearson, IL, Santander, IL, Betts missed full week to injury, Taylor DtD ongoing. I've cut a small number of players due to terrible performance or their role with the team not panning out. Only once have I been in a position to pick up a player for a one-day fill in (Duvall a couple days ago, 0 for 3). I wish I had zero transactions. If I had only 3 transactions I would be buried deeply in last place. I wouldn't enjoy being in a baseball league where I had to just take my injury lumps like in fantasy football. Maintaining my team daily has always been my approach to fantasy baseball and it's something that I enjoy doing. When I see that someone has made like 25 transactions in a whole season, I wonder how much enjoyment they get from fantasy baseball, if they care about the league, and if it bothers them if their team isn't competitive. If someone wins a league like DD or RIBC with only 25 transactions, that's the jackpot. Enjoy it because it likely won't happen again. If you don't like spending time to research player performance and the needs of your team throughout the season, then there are leagues out there that encourage that approach. Leagues that emphasize the draft and minimal in-season management, where if everything doesn't come together just right then you accept your fate and check out til next season.

The idea of parity is confusing to me. What does it mean? I don't know. I mean we already let the last place guy draft first every round. We limit keepers to 7. Are we talking about having the goal to make it so that no one is allowed to devote more time to the league than the league average or something like that? (If so, I think it would be awesome to have a league that had some kind of chess timer. You get 20 minutes a week on the league site and no outside research of the player pool allowed. Probably impossible to enforce and that's a shame because that would actually be a fun challenge.) But I don't see how doing something like, say, "you each get 35 moves this year" is intrinsically superior than what we do. It's just a different set of rules with it's own pitfalls. It doesn't mean that suddenly the guy with the most skill will now finally be determined. Skill at what? What skill are we trying to prove?

Something I've noticed with this league. There are always good players available at every position. At the same time, there are always many players on current rosters who really have no business being there.

At this point I don't even know why I've spent all this time rambling here. Kind of like the RIBC, this league and its rules have been here going on two decades now. I've always had fun with it and never had any thought that a rule change was necessary (other than something piddly like say limiting position slots to 162 GP). None of us are forced to be here. There are all kinds of leagues with very different rules out there. points leagues, weekly leagues, daily leagues, twice weekly waiver leagues, on and on. Just different rule sets. some favor good luck, some are more beneficial to people with more restrictive life schedules, some mimic the MLB/minor league system, etc. Not sure why we are talking about changing this league to be more like one of those when those leagues are already out there.

Final thought, not intending to provoke anyone or come off like an ass, but let's say that hypothetically I don't like that DaBomb beats my ass every year, my own reactions to that would be either A: his assessment of the rule set and the strategy he implements are an exhibition of game skill but I'm going to beat him at his own game and do it better; or B: I'll take the challenge and find a different approach that works for me within the rule set and see if I can come out on top (say like collecting picks and superior keepers through trades or maybe something like punting a category).

101

Bean
ID: 304422310
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 09:22

<100> I just check in around 1am each night to see if I want to make a move before the 2am cutoff for the next day.

This, just this. To be competitive, you have to do this. Is my perspective skewed?

102

Tree
ID: 161118314
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 10:00

This, just this. To be competitive, you have to do this. Is my perspective skewed?

yes. your perspective is skewed.

I'm in second place. I've made 3 moves.

Last year, I won the league. I made 17 moves.

Third place the year before, 25 moves.

4th place prior to that, 34 moves.

The number of moves a team makes is irrelevant to success. HOW, and WHEN, you make those moves, depending on your team needs, is significantly more relative to success.

I dont race to the waiver wire at 1 am. I dont have time for that. I pick up players when i need them. If the guy i want is gone, i grab the next best player, or i don't make a move at all.

I enjoy the freedom of grabbing a player when i need one, not the frustration of having to wait - to me, that would suck the life out of the game and end the creativity of building a roster that you believe is best for your team.

i pointed out to a friend the other day that i'm in four leagues that are distinctly different, and that why i enjoy them. If every league is a mirror of the other, why play in more than one?

the number one reason to not have a full-time waiver wire has already been mentioned -it bears repeating, and it trumps any reason TO create a waiver wire:

I think having every single move have to go through waivers, wait to see if it works, being screwed if it doesn't, not being to able to fix rosters when that happens, needing to check back in before game time to set line ups that could have been set the day before - I'd much prefer to lose out on a player (but still have a chance) than deal with all that.

fantasy baseball is a distraction. You can build your roster, set your line up, and let it fly. AND WIN DOING SO. it's something to do for fun, and if it becomes frustrating as Khahan mentioned above, what the fvck is the point of playing?

103

Bean
ID: 304422310
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 10:09

fantasy baseball is a distraction. You can build your roster, set your line up, and let it fly....what the fvck is the point of playing?

Concur

104

Bean
ID: 304422310
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 10:31

<92> You suggested putting a limit on transactions, to remove the "race to the internet effect" that this, and nearly every Rotoguru, league suffers from. Unless that limit is something less than, say 20, it wont be effective. A number greater than 20 wont change the behavior appreciably.

Just throwing things against the wall now, how bout the number of transactions you are allowed to make is proportional to your finish in the previous year. Lets see how that affects behaviors. That's Parity like.

105

holt
ID: 491153264
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 13:50

I check in at 1am just because that is the time that is most convenient for me. our rosters lock for the day at 2am cst so there's no incentive for me to check in in the morning rather than evening.

106

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 15:20

Bottom line is there needs to be a higher opportunity cost for making roster moves.

Why?

The opportunity cost is the player you are dropping breaking out of his slump. The opportunity cost is the player you are picking up getting injured or starting a slump.
You drop a player, you pick up a player. That is lateral with potential for upside. If there is additional cost that means making a move has an inherent downside, then why would anybody make a roster move?

I honestly do not understand the perspective that there has to be some cost associated with managing your team.

109

Bean
ID: 304422310
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 16:13

<105> ESPN and Yahoo chose the middle of the night for the "day change" cause it makes sense to do so. That some are willing to go to extremes to game the game mechanics in order to get an edge is just human nature I guess.

There are people who stay up until the "day change" time, specifically to grab the streaming SP for the day, ahead of the competition. If this wasn't a competitive advantage, they wouldn't do it, so let's not pretend that it isn't a competitive advantage, OK? If you haven't seen it, you aren't looking.

Likewise, being first to react to callups, closer changes, and injuries is also a competitive advantage. You aren't going to convince anyone that it isn't, so don't even try. Unfortunately, I cannot convince anyone who is benefitting from this advantage to give it up either.

So, I call out these two specific behaviors that have nothing to do with anyone's analytical ability. They simply have something to do with people's daily routine, and how much they are willing to sacrifice that routine to be competitive in a "game" that Tree eloquently pointed out is supposed to be a fun distraction [not a lifestyle].

Parity and a level playing field is all I am talking about. If I thought the effect was small, I would not even bring it up. I've said my peace, even if it has fallen on deaf ears.

Good luck this year guys, guess I will just continue to spot you all every year. Seems you are afraid to give up that spot....chickens.

110

Dpr
ID: 73192415
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 16:19

So what do people propose as solutions as I do not see perpetual waivers gaining favor?

This league clearly has a divide in manager activity which correlates with results and can be seen by averaging games played in results. Let’s make this discussion specifically about dabomb who most clearly leverages this strategy to success and see how he achieves it. One advantage is that he is often online right when the calendar changes and gets his first pick if players for the next day. This is especially true late in the season when active managers were streaming daily to hit innings max (and I was often second to him at 6am or looking an extra day ahead). I think this has largely been mitigated by this seasons reduced innings cap no longer requiring streaming. In terms of hitters he plays matchups and also streams for off days. Matchups is a skill and an effort to be rewarded but the games played can be mitigated my instituting caps. That said even still the issue here is that most managers don’t manage actively enough that hit a 162 game limit so still creates a divide (but I would be in favor or this to add more to balance). In terms of jumping on news, there is an obvious correlation to closer points but what is that per year 5 points max? I don’t think that is the margin of differential we are talking about here. Prospects? True perhaps but never really been his game and also I would argue should already be rostered by rebuilding teams so who is to blame for leaving on wire? What an I missing?

Also say we do impose a move limit of 100 per season. Is that going to cap the jumping on news or the playing of matchups and hot hands (skill and not without risk)? If we want to cap games played or innings we can do that explicitly.

111

Bean
ID: 304422310
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 16:33

Oh yeah, I now return you to your exciting discussion about stat categories.

112

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 18:02

There is a difference between a race to pick up a closer and making all other types of adds. The race aspect is a small percentage of the moves I make, and often the relievers stink and end up hurting ERA and WHIP, and saves are just 1 category. Most of the moves are about matchups, or filling in off days, or streaming SP during the season which is not about a race and I make many of these moves during the evening. The reduced innings cap will indeed mitigate to eliminate the late season SP streaming when the daily calendar turns.

Effort contributing to success can be applied anywhere and fantasy baseball is no different, whether it be pre-season prep or in-season management. I put in the effort because I enjoy doing so. I completely understand though that not everyone feels the same way. I want everyone in the league to be happy which is why I am open or changes. I will adapt to whatever is decided. I have played in a weekly league and had success because I put in the effort to research 2 start SPs and hitter matchups. Finding competitive advantages under any format is an interesting part of the game for me.

115

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 22:30

As I mentioned before, as a league, we should be more open to league changes that improve game play

Right here is the heart of the problem. Many of us simply don't see the way things are as game play that needs modified. Maybe putting a games played cap.
But when you get down to it, the current set up is what quite a few of us like.

Also say we do impose a move limit of 100 per season.
I'd rather see a games played cap for positional players before a moves cap. And if we do a moves cap, I'd still rather it be a bit higher than 100. We shouldn't be completing neutering a valid strategy. I can see taking steps to make sure its not taken to an extreme, though.

116

Tree
ID: 571142323
Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 10:09

I will say this again. The belief that number of moves = success is a misconception.

I'm in second place. I've made 3 moves.

Last year, I won the league. I made 17 moves.

Third place the year before, 25 moves.

4th place prior to that, 34 moves.

The number of moves a team makes is irrelevant to success. HOW, and WHEN, you make those moves, depending on your team needs, is significantly more relative to success.

117

GO
ID: 531581023
Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 13:15

Especially when adding a catcher who goes 0/4 hurts your AVG... and FA level SP gets blown up and scrambles up your ERA and WHIP.

120

GO
ID: 517342812
Sun, Apr 25, 2021, 16:47

Its sort of insane to me, that we have people that post on a website dedicated to fantasy sports nuts, with some of the most elite and creative managers to play against.. who want to be in a LESS active league with managers who I guess aren't working hard and grinding to win and exploring all the angles of roster construction and strategy.

Yahoo now has Best Ball leagues for that. Its all about the draft and not the daily grind of the season.

Has anyone other than me actually done a daily waiver baseball league?

122

GO
ID: 531581023
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 00:11

As someone who did one of these everyone on waivers every night for baseball I am offering my experience that is absolutely sucked. Nobody suggesting it seems to have ever actually done it which is why i asked.

Fastest to the FA pool will get you at best 5 extra points in this league. Maybe 20 extra saves by getting a few of the hot closer pickups. Half of them fail anyway.

Who has been a run the wire pickup other than that? All the prospects are already owned because of our deep bench. It's not like football and there is some guaranteed handcuff RB or backup QB waiting out there who is gonna win you the league.

Who is the hot pickup that someone got because of some breaking news that wasn't just closer related.

123

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 00:24

GO,

It is insane to me that anyone would destroy their circadian rhythm, and risk their mental and physical health to gain a competitive edge for a low stakes game. It is equally insane to me to expect people to be glued to the "wire" to get the latest breaking news just to act before everyone else for a low stakes game.

If this is your collective definition of proper level of competitiveness for a low stakes game, then I guess I am the one who is insane.

I will be to the point, if something isn't done about this in this league, and I don't expect it to happen, I wont be back next year. I am certain you will find a sane person to replace me. I'd tell you its been fun, but it really hasn't.

Now, where did I put that straight jacket key?

124

GO
ID: 517342812
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 10:25

I've won this league 4 times. I'm not glued to the wire. I never make the most moves. So please explain by what miracle I've been able to pull that off? Or Tree all the same...

As I stated, the hot closer will only get you a handful of extra points. Thats not making or breaking your win. If you kept getting second and losing by 5 points, then you'd have a case.

The run to the wire isn't costing you wins, you aren't winning because the core of your team doesn't have a top 50 or young keeper to build around. None of my core keepers were hot off the wire pickups, and to a fault I always draft or stash the young guy.... hell I have had Bryce his entire career since he was a teenager... but I typically have either veterans from the first few rounds on young keepers with huge upside.

The Torkelson stash is a good one, but you need some more like him.

125

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 11:02

GO,

When I joined, the team I inherited sucked. There wasn't a top 50 guy on the roster. I think that's a pretty good sized "give" for being the new guy, unfamiliar with the ruleset.

Though I believe you have severely underestimated it's effect, you have stated that being first to the waiver wire is worth five points which you also expect me to "give".

Finally, the chump change entry fee is not optional, but you expect me to "give" you that as well.

It's simple, I am done giving. You can let this lie (which I would prefer), or you can come after me again. But I am done, unless you all do something about what I am talking about. If you don't want to, fine, I get it. But I wont be back next year. Can I be any clearer?

126

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 11:23

Astade - With a FA waiver wire you still have the freedom to grab players from the FA pool but they would be processed overnight and if your claim is successful you could play them tomorrow as well. I don't see how that stifles creativity or sucks the life out of the game.

Because i should be able to grab a player when i want, and set my lineup, and not have to worry about some arbitrary time that i am required to do it.

let me manage my team.

Tree, just because you keep reciting stats for one manager over the last four years doesn't mean it's relevant to the discussion and the points being raised.

of course it's relevant. some folks are arguing that making 80 zillion moves is required to be competitive.

it's not.

What I don't like is the league ultimately coming down to a race for Free Agents.

that's an absolutely untrue statement.

8 times in the 17 year history of this league has the final result come down to less than 5 points between the first and second place team - and only ONE time in the last 6 seasons.

Exactly TWO owners have won this league while also making the most moves. In most cases, it wasn't even close. We've even had owners win this league with making transactions in single digits.

GO - Has anyone other than me actually done a daily waiver baseball league?

not me, because it sounds stupid.

127

dpr
ID: 355242518
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 11:23

So this then boils down to if we don't do perpetual waivers you will leave the league as I haven't seen alternative solutions provided? How many leagues follow such a method to slander this entire league for taking advantage and being rigged?

128

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 11:47

DPR,

I assume this is directed at me. If you feel I have slandered the entire league, I am sorry. I suggest you read all of the statements above again carefully.

What I think I have said is I am not going to keep giving you guys my money unless a change is made. If you don't want to make a change, then I wont be back next year. This isn't an ultimatum, I am not a fan of well-meaning failures. It's a full year heads up to you all that you need to look for another manager. Accept the gift, there is nothing Trojan about it.

129

Khahan
ID: 551581418
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 15:05

I think the idea of continual waiver is a no-go in this league. But we can always put it to a vote. That doesn't mean we can't make other changes. Throughout the years multiple managers have pointed to a deep bench and a lack of games played cap potential sources of problems.

I'd propose the following for next year:

-1 bench slot
162 games played cap

One less slot to stash players over the season. 1 less slot to fenagle for rotating players. Every FA you pickup to fill an off day potentially takes a start away from your rostered player at the end of the year. Simple, to the point. Non-disruptive.

132

GO
ID: 517342812
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 16:24

I think it has to do with no other position other than closer has a dramatic value shift that comes with breaking news?

Scanning the headlines today...
Salvador Perez is injured, is there some pickup there we are all fighting over?
Byton Buxton to miss some time. Same question? Yelich's sketchy back? anyone rushing to get Jackie Bradley yet?

Its not the NFL and the RB or QB goes down and there is a clear person who is going to step in and get all those same opportunities. Salvador Perez's backup is probably just gonna go 0/4 for a week straight.

And that 5 points is being VERY generous... because of several reasons.
#1 - if Da Bomb gets all the hot closers. He's gonna score a perfect 12 points. But he can't score any more than that. So whether he finished the season with 100 saves or 150 saves it irrelevant. He still only gets 12 points and did so at the expense of clogging up roster slots on 7 closers.

So if we concede that, we're all competing for 11 points then right?

So why is this more irrelevant than ever? Because half the teams don't even adhere to the 1990's and early 2000's closer strategy
A) Have a single clear closer -- how many teams even have a clear-cut closer? 12? 15?
B) Of those... how many of them have a definitive obvious pickup that we'd be racing to get?

And then... of these 10-12 teams, how many of these closers go down early enough in the season for it to even matter. Closer down in August... I claim the kinda sorta fill in guy... what do I get from that, like 6 saves? Thats not even gonna budge me in the standings.

133

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 17:29

One less slot to stash players over the season

i really don't think our benches our deep.

With the exception of C, there's a ton of quality free agents on the wire now. I don't think a 6 player bench in a 12 team league is a lot.

That being said, while i would not vote in favor of a decreased bench, i wouldn't throw a fit and threaten to leave the league if the league voted to make this change.

Tree, I believe our current rules are that a dropped player has to be on the waiver wire for 2 days before they can be claimed. Why aren't you up in arms that you can't just grab that player and set your lineup?

because that's a standard rule accepted by most leagues for decades?

Do you have any more apples you'd like to offer up for oranges?

Salvador Perez is injured, is there some pickup there we are all fighting over?

definitely not, because i was looking for someone, since i own Perez :D

136

GO
ID: 531581023
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 18:56

I am totally not against Saves and Holds becuase saves are so dumb... but... that really is just as arbitrary, it would almost be better to toss relievers entirely. But then how do you balance 5x5.

I personally always liked the lack of GP cap. I have always liked that about this league. I enjoy not having a panic attack like i just did in G20 cause i left a guy in the lineup and hes not actually starting so I am worried he pinch hits and "wastes" a game. Or even worse. Bench a guy cause he's not starting and hits a pinch hit HR like Dahl did to me in G20 this weekend.

137

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 18:57

There you have it....now we know why Tree is so against a change in the rules and an improvement in game play. Tree likes to maintain the status quo because that's all he knows. It has nothing to do with logic or ration.

that is such a desperate stretch, it's absurd.

You specifically asked "Why aren't you up in arms that you can't just grab that player and set your lineup," and I answered that specific question.

You made the logical stretch to apply that universally. Go play that game with someone else.

It must be a challenge for you with all the advanced statistics like WAR, xFIP while you cling to W-L records. That's the funny thing about progress, some people just aren't built for it and are doomed to get left behind. Bye Tree!

it's an incredible challenge.

Especially in this league, where i've finished ahead of you 7 of the last 10 seasons. I've even won this league in two different decades.

Have you even finished in the TOP THREE IN THIS LEAGUE? EVER? I mean, this league has been around for almost 20 years, so certainly you must have lucked into a top 3 finish, right?

No? Well damn, now i'm wondering who's the one actually struggling with progress?

Son, win something. Then come and talk smack.

138

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 19:04

140

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 19:40

My performance is irrelevant though in this discussion.

says the guy who brought numerous irrelevant issues into the discussion.

You are being close-minded while we discuss the merits of a rule change for our league.

because someone thinks an idea is lame, it's being close minded?

Bro, you need to learn the definition of close minded.

daily waiver leagues aren't fun. GO pointed that out here. in other conversations, i've had other friends say the same.

You literally keep saying the same thing, pointing to irrelevant things (such as advanced stats) and somehow leaping to conclusions about one thing when you ask about another.

The adults are talking, and most of us don't want the change you do.

141

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 19:40

I would ask that we keep the sniping at each other on a personal level to a non-existent level. Its really not called for. I think we have the potential for some healthy debate here.

How about the net effect of being able to pick up the average SP based on recent games/pitching match-ups for streaming purposes?

I think this is more a result of streaming than 'first to the wire.' With that said (and established at least in my mind) our recent reduction in IP should help mitigate this effect for pitchers. Installing a GP cap would also minimize this effect for hitters. While I agree with GO that I enjoy not having a cap is nice, if it leads to behavior that seems extreme and abusive in its application, its worth looking at a tweak.
We don't even have to do the cap at 162. We could set the cap at something arbitrary like 170 or 175. Gives the ability to do some streaming and rotating which may make the difference between 1st and 2nd or 6th and 7th or in other tight races. But can't be used to an extreme that a team just uses moves to take the top spot by sheer volume.

Something like that, to me, seems like the happy medium. More active managers do get a bit of an edge in stat accumulation and that may make the difference in a tight race. But those same managers don't get offered gift points by sheer volume of making moves every day and filling their roster every day so they don't get a huge bump in the standings. Its something at least to consider. We DO have a rather large divide in moves made between the top 2 teams (at making moves and the rest of the league). I still hold to my earlier comment that from looking at the numbers, maybe the rest of us could do with a little more activity and attention. But ultimately its not a matter of "too many moves" but a matter of "too many in comparison to what the rest of the league is comfortable with." If Da Bomb and Holt and Astade finish the season with 200-225 moves and most of the rest of us were at say around 150 - then they are more active but not to such a degree that it seems like they are in a different type of league.

I still think, if any changes are to be made, it starts with a GP cap and reduction in our roster size by 1. Maybe instead of -1 bench, we do -1 util and go back like we were when we started. The second utility slot was added in, I think 2006 or 07? Or we take a bench spot off. The purpose of this, Tree, has nothing to do with quality of available FA. It has to do prospects and stashing players and availability of manager resources to rotate players and churn through as many GP as possible (which some view as being abused to the detriment of the league). Reduction in roster size can be a remedy for lack of available FA talent, but it has other uses too and in our league, I'm eyeballing those other applications.

143

GO
ID: 531581023
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 20:16

A shorter bench will lead to me making considerably more moves. For example in RIBC i dont even have all the starting pitcher slots filled half the time. Then periodically i dedicate one slot to 5 days of SP starts in a row... and then send it back over to be a bench UT guy.

In this league we have a couple more bench slots than default so I don't have to maximize every nuance of a given roster spot. I just have like 5 starters, 3 or 4 RP... 3 bench hitters and thats about it. Lineup is reasonably covered.

144

GO
ID: 531581023
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 20:22

The fact that i don't even think Givens is the replacement for Bard sort of illustrates my point. They'd likely mix and match with Almonte.

Same problem with Neris. Could be Archie sometimes... sometimes Alvarado.

145

dpr
ID: 355242518
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 21:22

I agree decreasing a roster spot would lead to more streaming to fill off days and in general increase the quality of replacement players. It may impact prospect hoarding, but that should theoretically impact the rebuilding team more.

If Daniel Bard goes down tonight it will be 2-3 hours after I am in bed. Should waivers only process the following midday for the next to give me an equal chance as well? Outside of closers there really isn't too much jumping on the news in baseball as opportunity general exists for players.

Also in terms of waivers for drops that doesnt constrain the ability to pick someone up for tomorrow as it is just 1% of players and only occurs a few times a season even if it is an extra step. It is the multiple layers of conditional waivers that would bug me, not the needing to log in the next day although i am sure there would be slip ups there as well.

146

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 21:59

I still don't see that as the fundamental problem. It's a symptom
I'm going to have to assume you are referring back to the early 100's posts where you talked about opportunity cost of making a move. Again, I think we have a fundamental disagreement on whether or not this is even an issue in this league. If that is the case, again I ask, "why should there a cost associated with making a move that is potentially greater than the move itself? Why shouldn't moves, at the onset, be lateral?"

147

holt
ID: 491153264
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 22:31

I may just be an unskilled ignorant hillbilly who doesn't understand basic English so don't take any of my words too seriously here.

I don't have a problem with any rule in our league. I wouldn't mind being able to pick up a free agent and putting them in the lineup the same day. That would be more convenient than having to do it by 2am cst the night before. Every player on waivers all the time? A few orders of magnitude more inconvenient. I prefer my fantasy sport hobby to not be a huge pain in the ass.

I don't buy into the idea that racing to add FA's is an issue at all. If there is some prospect out there that you just have to have on your team then roster them now. Otherwise, play a game of chicken like the rest of us. I don't know the %'s but it seems that more often than not when a closer goes down and I am the first to arrive to pick up his successor, that guy either doesn't get the job or does get the job and immediately melts down under pressure. If you are really desperate for saves it's not usually difficult to just trade for one. No need to set up text alerts waiting for the next oblique strain to happen.

The only suggestions that I think have any merit at all are possibly restricting games played and/or innings pitched, and I'm not even sure about that. As was pointed out, it is irritating to bench a player just because they didn't start and then watch them hit a 3 run bomb off the bench.

I know this for sure. If we implemented a rule that all players are on waivers at all times, I would never care about trying to maintain a high waiver priority. I would be 10th to 12th in waiver priority at all times and not care at all. And the manager with the precious #1 waiver priority could sit on their hands and wait week after week for Bobby Witt Jr. to get called up even though most prospects like that are already rostered.

148

holt
ID: 491153264
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 22:35

Go - I got your offer and I am considering it. It caught me off guard because usually I only receive offers that are trying to take advantage of me. Thanks.

149

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 23:53

GO,

Have you collected the money yet? Sorry, I don't recall if I paid yet. What do I owe you?

I paid the draft time fee, I assume that is deducted.

150

Tree
ID: 161118314
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 09:30

The purpose of this, Tree, has nothing to do with quality of available FA.

fair enough. while i'm still not sold on the idea of dropping a roster spot, although paired with dropping a Util spot, it does become more palatable.

Writing in all caps and posting random YouTube videos aren't helping the debate.

you start dishing personal attacks, and then can't take them, maybe you shouldn't be throwing those attacks out in the first place while having a tantrum that you can't have your way.

grow up, and move on.

Every player on waivers all the time? A few orders of magnitude more inconvenient. I prefer my fantasy sport hobby to not be a huge pain in the ass.

this. every bit of this. let's take something enjoyable and turn it into something arduous because someone didn't get one of the 9 guys forming a committee because the top closer went down.

hell, if we want to eliminate that problem, just go to S+H instead of strictly saves, but what do I know, I apparently am too dumb to understand change.

151

GO
ID: 517342812
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:16

dpr brings up a good point because now you not only have the upfront work to make sure your claims all arranged and set up... you THEN need to then make sure you check back in the next morning to A - see who you got and B - put them into your lineup if applicable. More then once in that league I referenced, I'd win a waiver claim and I'd miss a 1 PM game and had a hole at a particular position where my new guy was intended.

So if for some reason I know I have a big meeting tomorrow (or Khahan is in school for example) -- it would hinder his move making because he knows he can't claim anyone and successfully get them in the lineup cause he won't be able to check all day. Whereas now, he can make his move for tomorrow and set things up as he wants for tomorrow.

Also good point on the timing... I agree... I'm in bed by 11 PM... some west coast closer breaks a leg at 1 AM EST.... I'm not even knowing I need to claim that guy anyway, so what did that solve?

152

GO
ID: 517342812
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 10:17

Treasury - I have not really collected, thought a few have.

Bean, yes you can do 20 instead of 30. Will post instructions on the Yahoo page with my details.

153

Perm Dude
ID: 3310302519
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:33

GO: I put a check in the mail today.

154

Tree
ID: 161118314
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 15:32

155

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 15:46

Now that the heat has settled on this a bit. Just wanted to show you guys the standard ruleset for Yahoo Baseball leagues, in case you understandably haven't been there in awhile. I am pretty sure they just started doing this, this year. I play in two public hoops basketball leagues that use continuous but not FAB. I think that is new too, i didn't play public hoops last year.

The waiver Type is about getting a $100 budget for waiver acquisitions. The waiver mode "continuous" is that all players are on waivers all the time.

Anyway, these are the Yahoo baseball public league waiver settings:

Waiver Time: 2 days
Waiver Type: FAB w/ Continual rolling list tiebreak
Waiver Mode: Continuous
Waiver Processing Days: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday
Allow injured players from waivers or free agents to be added directly to injury slot: No

This is the state of fantasy baseball nowadays by definition. Yahoo saw the issues I talked about, associated with unbridled streaming and they adapted their rules accordingly. They keep the leagues at 12 people, the batting positions to traditional real baseball spots and small benches. They use 162 GP per position and 1400 IP as hard limits. They don't toy with the ruleset out of boredom. They change rules out of recognition of issues, they are professionals who want the game to have broad appeal and do not cater to a niche audience.

I only play at ESPN when required to, so I don't know what their settings are for public leagues. I cannot find the public league settings without actually creating a team and actually drafting a team. They also offer FAB/Continuous. But I am pretty sure its not the default or the public league standard.

You may not like it, and that is your choice, but my desire to play "normal" fantasy baseball is not in any way abnormal. If I wanted to stream players, I would play a daily fantasy game and not play in a year long league. I appreciate that the majority of people at Rotoguru would like a hybrid of daily and year long, and really enjoy streaming. It is not my cup of tea, and I was "raised" to see it as gimmicky, and not in the spirit of the game. Also a self-confessed West Virginia hill-billy, Holt, "we are all a product of our raisin'".

My point is that how the game has evolved here at Rotoguru is the outlier, for me that is very frustrating. However, there aren't any "normal" leagues here at Rotoguru. I just wish I could find a spot to play "normal" fantasy baseball with good competition. The closest I have found is Nerfherder's TPKL, that limits roster moves through transaction fees, and a salary cap.

Maybe I will try to start a "new-normal" league here next year, and see if there is any interest. Given the end of RIBC, there may be room for another.

156

GO
ID: 517342812
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 16:23

I can tell you daily waivers wouldn't impact my streaming one bit. I'd probably wind up making more moves actually, cause I'd put a bunch in to make sure I actually got one successful claim on a day I know I needed a SS or a SP... only way to slow streaming is a moves cap.

Why not just put it at 162? One move "per game"...

157

astade
ID: 93141721
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 17:47

Khahan, totally agree with your post in #146. What I see as a problem, a lot of managers in our league don't. Happy to leave this discussion in the state of 'agree to disagree'. However, I don't enjoy playing with the settings we have so this will be my last year in the league.

Bean, when you write 'year long' league. Do you mean a keeper league? I would be interested in joining an FAAB so feel free to email if there is anything I can do to help.

158

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 19:19

Astade,

If you are asking whether I plan to start a re-draft (like RIBC) or a keeper league next year, the answer is I don't know.

I don't think that year long is a generally accepted terminology, it's just my way of differentiating from what are now very popular "daily fantasy gambling sites".

159

GO
ID: 531581023
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 07:57

Meanwhile... Da Bomb wins the closer that was on waivers for the last 3 days. I thought you guys said if everyone was on waivers it would give you all a fair shot?!

160

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 10:07

Historically I get nothing on waivers but the leftovers. It is so bad, I dont even try to get guys on waivers anymore, ten years of this nonsense has taught me to not waste my time or let my blood pressure rise from the frustration.

I draft my closers, like right now, I am in the lead on saves, but sooner or later something will happen to some of my guys and accumulating saves will be harder.

Nice try GO. My whines are warranted.

.

161

GO
ID: 517342812
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 12:23

Ok... So I screw up and drop a guy who now looks like a closer... who becomes the "hot" top add in baseball the last couple days... several of your scream we need waivers to have a fair shot... and he was sitting out there for THREE DAYS, not just an overnight... and nobody bothers to claim him and Da Bomb gets him anyway. Makes perfect sense.

Did you consider adding him and decided against it?

162

Astade
ID: 543282911
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 12:29

Da Bomb claimed Staumont off the waiver wire using his #2 WW priority

163

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 12:32

holt was the only other manager to put in a waiver claim.

Dolis also went through unclaimed a few days ago.

164

Bean
ID: 304422310
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 12:36

Oh, u said waivers GO, I misread and thought FA. As to whether or not I looked, I didn't, but I have four closers already. No room for another. Looks like waiver wire worked. Am I wrong?

165

holt
ID: 491153264
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 13:24

I missed out on Staumont but as a consolation prize Romano was available as a FA so I still got to add a closer today (maybe).

166

holt
ID: 491153264
Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 13:36

dang dabomb I went to add mclanahan in ribc just as a speculative move and when I submitted it he was suddenly unavailable. scooped me by a matter of seconds lol. hope he gets shelled next inning!

167

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sun, May 02, 2021, 19:23

Wow, my team sure woke up today. Let's hope they stay that way.

168

astade
ID: 93141721
Wed, May 19, 2021, 20:54

Looking to trade Ohtani (Util) and potentially an OF for a hitter with multi-position eligibility. Please email me through the league page if you're interested.

169

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Thu, May 20, 2021, 21:46

grabbed sano last night to fill injury spot simply because he had a double header today. Got a nice grandslam from him plus a Hr from Dalbec who I added a few days ago. My pick up players are doing better than most of my keepers.

170

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 13:47

Hey DPR - I did not agree to a witch's hex on blake snell as part of our trade.

171

Perm Dude
ID: 3310302519
Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 14:46

Father's Day 2021: I finally get the gift I've been looking for, and pull out of last place.

:)

172

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 22:10

holy moly. too bad this stat line is being wasted on my team. As of right now:
16R 6HR 18rbis 2SB .647 BA 22/34 for my team tonight. And thats with Trevor Story sitting tonight.

With that said, if you are looking for speed I've got Garrett Hampson and Raimel Tapia. Tapia is potential keeper material. I'm really most interested in 2022 draft picks. If you're looking for pitching, Robbie Ray is having quite the fine season here, (3.43 ERA, 1.12 whip 113K's in 86.2 IP). If my math is correct that's an 11.73K/9

Too many of my guys got off to REALLY slow starts (basically anybody on my team not named Flaherty or Castellanos). Kluber and Flaherty, my 2 best pitchers early on are both DL-bound for weeks/months to come). Blake Snell is pitching like I imagine I would if I were in the majors (which is NOT good) And while guys like Albies, Alonso, and Story are coming around, I'm just in a deep hole.
For the 2 people who have sent multiple inquiries on Flaherty -he's still off the table for now. That may change depending on how Whitlock, Framber and Kapreilian do the rest of the season. Or maybe those guys are interesting to you?

173

holt
ID: 491153264
Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 14:57

goatlocker - last league activity may 21?

also kind of curious about the rationale of Cruz for Civale. are there no picks included with that? Civale is out for who knows how long. is he a keeper or something?

174

astade
ID: 93141721
Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 00:14

RE 173

I hope Goatlocker (Cliff) is okay. I have reached out to him 3 times this season about potential trades and the only time he replied was in late May. Does anyone have a way to contact him aside from email?

175

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 01:30

I don’t think I agree that a manager be able to trade draft picks after stating he would not be returning next season (post 157), unless that has changed? I feel we would need a co/succeeding manager in place to sign-off.

176

astade
ID: 93141721
Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 02:30

Da Bomb, my previous post stands unless there are changes made to the league settings/rules.

Since changes don't seem likely, do you want to start the recruiting process now to get a new manager to sign off on the trade?

Also, I have had potential keepers like Soto, Cole and Bauer on the trading block. Am I allowed to trade them or does a new manager need to sign off on that too?

Do we have any rules in place to deal with this scenario? I don't remember when previous managers announced their departure so I am not sure if we have a precedent to follow.

177

holt
ID: 491153264
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 11:37

need some kind of explanation on this trade. I don't recall ever protesting a trade before but in this case you can definitely put me in the veto column. Bauer may never even pitch again. not even draft picks involved? I can't understand it.

178

Tree
ID: 571142323
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 12:26

Agreed.

This is one of those trades that simply can't be allowed to stand, for the integrity of the league.

#5 Ks #6 wins sp
#3 saves

For a guy that's not likely to ever play baseball again?

Certainly there's several number one picks involved in this trade?

179

Khahan
ID: 4015628
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 14:56

robbie ray isn't going to be a keeper for me. He'll a 30 year old pitcher next season and he's having his second good year since 2014, but he's a lifetime 4.11 ERA and 1.34 whip. If Bauer is back next year, he's a definite keeper. I've had Robbie Ray on the table for a month (posted about trading him back on June 30) and nobody showed any interest. If I get a #1 type ace for him next season I'll have made out big time in the trade. If not, i' m dead last in ERA/WHIP because of duds like Blake Snell that took me wayyyyy too long to cut loose and Kyle Hendricks.

Maybe if I had other offers to consider, a roll of the dice on a payoff next year wouldn't have been so appealing. But there has been completely zero other interest in him. Not a single other offer. I'm taking what I can get.

180

astade
ID: 93141721
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 17:23

re 177

Here is a little background, which I hope helps-

I traded for Bauer and B. Hand for Trevor Rogers and Ohtani (Hitter) back in June. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out well for me with Bauer struggling after the new 'grip inspections' and most recently his administrative leave. I'm sitting on a Keeper SP that is an N/A. In the meantime my pitching stats are declining while I try to compete for a top finish.

I put Bauer on the Yahoo trading block in early July. I received no offers.
I reached out to Bean in late July on a Bauer trade and he declined. I then reached out to Greg (Khahan) with the offer of Bauer for Reyes/Ray. My thought process was that Bauer may or may not come back and pitch this year. I wanted to trade him for pitching that would help sure up my counting stats like W, SV and K's for this season.

I can assure you that there was no collusion with Greg nor was this an attempt to dump a player or hurt the league. I made what ultimately looks like a bad trade for Bauer earlier this year and I've traded him to remain competitive for the remainder of the season.

181

Khahan
ID: 41747117
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 18:47

I”ll also add I’m going into the trade eyes wide open about Bauer’s situation. I look at it this way - if it backfires, my 2022 keepers are completely unaffected. For any standings in 2021, I can stream the K’s I lose from Ray. Era/whip will be unaffected as I’ve noted. If it works, I go into 2022 with Flaherty/Bauer and maybe Valdez or kaprelian.
With that said, this trade was sent over to me and I took it. If the league really feels it’s lopsided (as last to first often can be) and it’s over turned, no skin off my back.

182

Tree
ID: 571142323
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 19:08

So, the rationale here was "we both wanted to make a trade, and came to this" and "I might have a great keeper in Trevor Bauer"?

By reports, Bauer isn't going to pitch for a long time, if ever again.

That's the problem here. And why this deal looks so lopsided.

Giving up two aces who are dominating right now for a former ace who may never pitch again defies logic.

183

astade
ID: 93141721
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 19:43

That's the problem here. And why this deal looks so lopsided.

There is no problem. Bauer and Ray have been on the trading block for a month. Both managers involved in the trade have explained their rationale and how they could benefit from the trade.

There is uncertainty surrounding Bauer's situation but both Greg and I were aware of that going into the trade. If people want to take an extreme position and suggest that Bauer will never pitch again, they are doing so while the outcome is still pending. We see trades go through with prospects and injured players in this league. They also have a wide range of outcomes. In those cases, they are also predicated on speculation and managers planning rosters with different time horizons.

This trade involves managers that have been involved in the league since its inception who have zero record of collusion or making unfair trades so comparing this to a public league is bogus. Our explanations for why we are making the trade should be enough. Even if you personally feel differently about the players involved, the trade should be allowed.

184

Dpr
ID: 2975119
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 20:05

Personally when I saw the trade my thoughts were in line with 179. This is a classic keeper trade of players with value this year (but not this year) for value next year. I am not the most in tune with the Bauer situation but I think we all know his potential.

If anything my concerns are in line with 175 where this is more trading the future for the now.

185

Wiggs
ID: 079119
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 20:09

As a player in this league who is middle of the pack and not involved in this trade I feel like it is lopsided but I also know I have been in multiple leagues with both managers in the trade and would never accuse either of collusion. My vote is to allow the trade.

186

holt
ID: 491153264
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 21:22

I never thought it was collusion, just lopsided. I wouldn't pick up Bauer as a free agent at this point, but I guess it could turn out that the accusations against him aren't true. I'm having a hard time imagining Bauer in a major league uniform next season, or any season for that matter. It's not collusion though so nothing I can do about it. There's also no way I can make a trade to boost my team in an equal way without sending off my top draft picks for next season, which I'm not gonna do. Still, if anyone out of contention has an offer that will help my team somehow, send it my way, please.

187

Tree
ID: 571142323
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 22:39

It's not collusion, it's just the sort of extremely unbalanced trade that affects the integrity of the league.

Bauer isn't ranked as high as Ray for this season, or even in most dynasty / keeper rankings, much less tossing Reyes into the deal as well.

That's what makes this deal so unbalanced, and a league killer.

188

astade
ID: 93141721
Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 23:10

Using objective measures, here are the Yahoo rankings based on 2021 performance:
Bauer - 34
Ray - 42
Reyes - 70

At this point, any discussion about 2022 keeper rankings is highly speculative. We don't know if Bauer is innocent or guilty nor do we know if the administrative leave will be extended.

189

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 11:23

Using objective measures, here are the Yahoo rankings based on 2021 performance:
Bauer - 34
Ray - 42
Reyes - 70

exactly. There is literally ONE SP ranked between Bauer and Ray. And Ray is younger than Bauer by a year.

Then you add in the guy who is third in the league in saves (and third in ERA of the 25 guys with more than 10 saves), and it already becomes lopsided.

At this point, any discussion about 2022 keeper rankings is highly speculative. We don't know if Bauer is innocent or guilty nor do we know if the administrative leave will be extended.

The leave has already been extended THREE times. So there's solid evidence that will continue to happen.

Calling what may happen with Bauer " highly speculative" is to ignore other evidence we already have - Of the six previous in-season suspensions under the joint domestic violence, sexual assault, and child abuse policy, five were extended and those six players were suspended for an average of 64 games, with lengths ranging from 20 games (Julio Urías in 2019) to 85 games (Odubel Herrera in 2019).

Herrera wasn't even convicted, and still missed more than half a season. What Bauer is accused of his significantly worse, and him missing all of 2021 and 2022 isn't a far stretch, and the reality that he may never throw another MLB pitch is very real - his Dodger teammates have already stated on record they don't want him back, and it's unlikely any team is going to want that albatross around its neck.

that's what makes this deal a league killer - a stud starter and a stud closer traded for a guy who won't likely pitch this season or next, if he even ever pitches again.

190

astade
ID: 93141721
Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 11:38

Holt/Wiggs,

Nice trade for both of your teams. Hopefully Mondesi comes back strong and proves his manager wrong. Otherwise you may have folks calling this trade a 'league killer'.

https://www.royalsreview.com/2021/8/2/22605812/dayton-moore-on-adalberto-mondesi-we-cant-count-on-him-as-an-everyday-player

191

Khahan
ID: 41747117
Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 13:00

The commish or co-commish can still call for a vote on the Ray/Bauer trade. If it’s overturned I expect some big time offers in Ray.

192

Tree
ID: 161118314
Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 15:20

The commish or co-commish can still call for a vote on the Ray/Bauer trade.

it shouldn't even come to that.

Ray and Bauer are so close at this point, that is it really worth screwing over the rest of the league to make this deal happen?

Nice trade for both of your teams. Hopefully Mondesi comes back strong and proves his manager wrong. Otherwise you may have folks calling this trade a 'league killer'.

dramatic difference in that Mondesi is injured and will be back - he may or may not be a full time player as they manage his injury history, but he will be back.

Bauer returning to baseball is a giant question mark, and your denial/ignorance of this speaks to how unfair you know this deal is.

193

GO
ID: 531581023
Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 16:04

I can't email for a vote cause i am on vacation. But if someone can email the league to email me any no votes by midnight that would be helpful.

**URGENT**Please email votes on Bauer, Ray, Reyes deal to GO by midnight. 6 no votes out of 10 requires to overturn the trade.

194

astade
ID: 93141721
Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 16:18

Mondesi for Peralta looks like a great buy low, sell high deal for the managers involved. Mondesi had a couple of monster seasons but the latest news is concerning. He's still young so I hope he can come back stronger and prove his manager/doubters wrong. Peralta is having a fantastic 2021 and the 12th ranked player per Yahoo! It's his first season over 100 innings so hopefully he can replicate this success in future years. Would I make the same trade? Probably not. Do I see it benefiting Holt in 2021 and making the race tighter? Yes, I think his pitching stats will improve and he won't be impacted on the hitting side because his lineup is contributing across the board and Mondesi wouldn't add much incrementally. However I have no reason to question Holt or Wiggs knowing they are both competitors and are doing what's best for their teams. Neither of them has a crystal ball to know how Mondesi will rebound from his injury and they both have access to the latest information on the players involved in the trade.

Bauer for Ray/Reyes has some parallels. Bauer had a few great season including the 2020 CY Young. Ray has only had 1 strong season (2017 as Greg alluded to before) and this is Reyes's first season with more than 1 save. There's a lot of uncertainty around Bauer but Ray and Reyes are hardly proven commodities. This trade could have many different outcomes.

Hopefully discerning managers in our league see that trades involving injured players, prospects and players accused of crimes can all have uncertainty surrounding their return and subsequent performance. Judging the outcome of such a trade can be especially challenging in a keeper league. That's why we've never had a trade veto in this league before nor should we now.

195

Tree
ID: 571142323
Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 17:32

Once again, that you can't see the difference between a player with an injury history and a guy accused of something so heinous his own teammates don't want him back despite his talent speaks volumes for your lack of interest in what's best for this league.

It's disappointing to see this happen. Trevor Bauer will likely never play again, and yet here he is, being moved as if he's an Ace who pitched lights out last night

I've spoken to several people outside of this league, and they're equally baffled by the trade. One even commented he wouldn't pick up Bauer on the waiver wire right now, as he likely won't pitch before 2023 at best.

Shameful trade.

196

GO
ID: 531581023
Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 08:12

More votes to allow trade through than not so case closed.

197

wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 08:41

https://www.royalsreview.com/2021/8/2/22605812/dayton-moore-on-adalberto-mondesi-we-cant-count-on-him-as-an-everyday-player

Awesome- this article came out literally hours after the trade. Thats about how my season has gone. My thoughts were with Tatis hurt, and not knowing if he will be back this season my chances of making much of a move are done. I will not keep peralta next season and if mondesi comes back healthy next season i will keep him. He is a high SB guy and can change a category. Would i have made the trade if i saw this information, probably not, do i think it should be vetoed at this point, definitely not.

198

Tree
ID: 161118314
Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 11:58

More votes to allow trade through than not so case closed.

doesn't make it any less of a disgusting trade.

it's the kind of trade that happens in a public league, and should never happen in a league like this.

to a person, everyone from outside of this league that i've asked was baffled it was allowed to go through.

199

holt
ID: 16481819
Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 15:40

I saw that mondesi article yesterday like a couple hrs after I accepted wiggs' offer. I'm not buying what that GM is saying. It looks like a roundabout way of motivating Mondesi and sending him a message before they begin contract negotiations. Honestly mondesi was my favorite keeper and his injuries this year have been such a let down. When he is on the field there's not a more entertaining player in the league just to see what he does night to night. I don't think it's a stretch to think that he could be a #1 overall fantasy player in the future if he could just stay of the IL. My first inclination was to veto the trade, especially considering that he is on the cusp of returning to action, but the deal really made sense for my team and the realization of that finally cracked through my thick skull. Hopefully both peralta and mondesi are good contributors in the future. If peralta keeps pitching like this he'll be a keeper for me, maybe replacing my kershaw keeper slot.

200

dpr
ID: 3171768
Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 09:17

Willing to move Rendon for pieces that would help me this year if there is a rebuilding team similarly interested. He has struggled with injuries this year and results have lagged as a result but offers top tier talent when healthy

201

Bean
ID: 304422310
Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 11:45

So, I have a dynamite bullpen as most of you know. You also know I am leaving the league after this season. Seems my hopes of getting in the money this year are dwindling, so its time to look toward next year, albeit for someone else.

I have received several offers for my closers, but think it does the league the most service to put them on the trading block and let you all bid for them.

I think Kimbrel is keeper worthy, debatable whether it makes sense to keep more than one closer.

The offered players: McGee, Melancon and Hader.

To be clear, I am only going to consider pick offers, so you needn't offer any players other than throw aways. With your offer, tell me which of the closers you want, and what pick you would give for that player. Multiple offers is kosher. You wont get a second chance, so come with your best offers.

I am going out of town tomorrow, and will be back Wednesday evening. I'll accept the trades on Thursday and likely the process will be completed by Saturday.

I cant imagine anyone would object to any of this normal activity in any keeper league. You wont be able to complain that I am favoring any manger over another. However, if you think this isn't what a departing manager should be doing, I can suggest a good psychiatrist to help you deal with your issues. ;)

Good luck this year guys.

202

Bean
ID: 304422310
Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 11:47

Oh yeah, the blue link for your convenience.

203

GO
ID: 531581023
Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 08:07

I think trading your closers would be fine and would help your replacement a bunch with a few extra mid round picks.

204

astade
ID: 93141721
Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 16:54

Gerrit Cole is still on the trading block.

Looking for an SP with low ratios on a winning team and a hitter with multi-position eligibility.

205

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Tue, Aug 24, 2021, 17:32

Willing to trade most of my roster minus my upper tier keepers for draft picks. Closers, SPs, hitters! Aug 26 trade deadline.

206

astade
ID: 93141721
Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 21:24

Has anyone been in touch with Cliff this summer? Just looking for confirmation that he is okay.

207

GO
ID: 531581023
Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 21:48

He mentioned he is leaving all football leagues to keep up with some health stuff so he has been in touch.

208

Astade
ID: 39732821
Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 22:03

GO, thank you.

209

Khahan
ID: 54833180
Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 20:41

So I'm going to hunt down Trevor Story and see how much he'll pay me never to have him on one of my fantasy teams again. Not counting the shortened 2020 season I started 2021 with him here and 2017 with him in an ribc league. His 2 worst seasons and its not even close.

210

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 13:55

Huge bummer to see a manager who knows he is not returning to a keeper league drop the 11th ranked SP (and 4th by avg stats min 5 games started) presumably because his next start was questionable over the last week of the season.

211

Tree
ID: 161118314
Sat, Sep 25, 2021, 13:52

between moves like that, and the still disgusting Bauer trade, i'm seriously weighing whether or not i'm going to return to this league after this season.

that Bauer trade was so wrong and should absolutely not have been allowed, it makes me question what sort of trades it would take in this league to get one overturned.

212

GO
ID: 33543812
Fri, Oct 01, 2021, 09:36

There were only a couple votes against Bauer for Ray, correct.
And even today, I'd personally rather have Bauer as a keeper option over Ray who literally just went undrafted earlier this year in most leagues and had a 6+ ERA last year.

I probably don't keep either, but if this goes away for Bauer he's got the Cy Young upside. And he did just win the first court battle when they denied a restraining order, and texts revealed she asked for the BDSM stuff. So now its a grey area of where the line is drawn. Certainly not an open/shut thing. and that is why whoever did pick him up made a good move... he's a lottery ticket.

213

Tree
ID: 161118314
Fri, Oct 01, 2021, 12:27

the only people i know who thought that trade was anything but gross are in this league.

Bauer will be lucky to pitch again in the Majors. At best, it's VERY unlikely he pitches in the bigs in 2022.

texts revealed she asked for the BDSM stuff.

indeed. but that doesn't me she asked to be anally raped while passed out. in her own words "I did not consent to bruises all over my body that sent me to the hospital and having that done to me while I was unconscious."

MLB's policy on sexual abuse, etc, is very specific here:

Sexual assault refers to a range of behaviors, including a completed nonconsensual sex act, an attempted nonconsensual sex act, and/or nonconsensual sexual contact. Lack of consent is inferred when a person uses force, harassment, threat of force, threat of adverse personnel or disciplinary action, or other coercion, or when the victim is asleep, incapacitated, unconscious or legally incapable of consent.

re the restraining order, he didn't win anything. in fact, it's probably worse for him, because part of the judge's ruling basically said that any woman who sleeps with Bauer should expect injuries to occur during the act, so give then the situation, a restraining order doesn't fit the bill.

that's not good for Bauer's MLB future.

Attorney Sheryl Ring (who deals with sports related stuff said "And that’s why this case isn’t the ringing victory Bauer’s legal team would have you believe. First, a court basically just ruled that Trevor Bauer is so dangerous that any woman who sleeps with him can reasonably be expected to get physically injured. Moreover, from the evidence adduced at trial in Bauer’s own words and from the mouth of Bauer’s lawyer, Bauer punched an unconscious woman and choked a woman until she was unconscious, because she didn’t say no. Coming on the heels of the Washington Post report that Bauer threatened to kill a woman in Ohio, this is damning - not exculpatory - evidence for a violent proclivity towards women. That Bauer’s attorney attempted to say that he was only violent during sex is not a defense."

214

GO
ID: 33543812
Fri, Oct 01, 2021, 14:39

Actually two G20 people I asked valued Bauer higher.

215

holt
ID: 43956121
Fri, Oct 01, 2021, 23:12

Re 210, agree 100%. Complete lack of regard for the future manager of that squad. Rodon is ranked higher than any pitcher that I have on my team. Even if the future owner of that team didn't want to keep him he would at least have trade value. Not impressed.

216

GO
ID: 33543812
Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 09:27

Congrats to Astade on the 2021 win. Easily my worst season, but a lot of young guys to pick from for next year and try and fix this thing.

217

Bean
ID: 304422310
Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 11:12

Grats Astade

218

astade
ID: 93141721
Mon, Oct 04, 2021, 20:03

Thank you!

219

dpr
ID: 479221814
Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 15:22

So what's the future of this league? Do we need to replace 3 managers now?

220

loki
ID: 139401921
Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 22:40

I'd like to poll the league so if necessary we can find replacement managers sooner than later.

221

holt
ID: 40943015
Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 16:05

I'll be back.

222

Perm Dude
ID: 3310302519
Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 14:17

I'll be returning, too.

223

GO
ID: 33543812
Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 16:18

Returning
GO
PermDude
dpr
Loki
Holt

Out
Astade
Tree
Goat

Pending confrimation
Bean
DaBomb
Khahan
Wiggs

224

Wiggs
ID: 231012121
Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 22:12

Back

225

Bean
ID: 304422310
Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 12:05

Out

226

Tree
ID: 161118314
Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 16:05

While I never officially said I wasn't returning in a public forum, this isn't a league I can, in good faith, return to.

I was here 16 seasons. I won two championships, and was in the top 4 six times beyond that. I've enjoyed my time here prior to this season, but I'm not so sure the league would veto a Pete Rose for Ronald Acuna trade at this point, on the basis that since he has a heartbeat, Rose could possibly make a come back.

227

Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 10:16

In, but needing at least 4 new managers is tricky.

228

holt
ID: 40943015
Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 01:09

Did anyone ever hear anything from goatlocker?

229

GO
ID: 511027128
Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 09:27

He's leaving all leagues and is counted in the group leaving.

230

taxman
ID: 111211923
Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 00:30

If you have an opening, I'm interested.

231

GO
ID: 19101309
Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 09:26

Of. course Mr. Tax. We've got a few so will have a lottery of some sort though need to determine if that is just picking which franchise they want... or perhaps we throw all players from the open teams into a pot and you guys do a dispersal draft. You'd still get a franchise and all traded picks associated. Perhaps we make that a "pick" or one of the rounds of the draft as well. Whoever gets first pick of the player picks, gets last choice of the franchise pick. Seems fair.

232

GO
ID: 19101309
Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 15:28

I'll be in Disney till Feb 21st but will take a roll call for now... then we can see how many openings need to be filled.

Tax being one new addition.

233

GO
ID: 34025146
Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 21:28

Dodgers pitcher Trevor Bauer will not be criminally charged by Los Angeles prosecutors, the L.A. County District Attorney's Office said Tuesday. The ruling concludes a five-month review of the case, which stems from sexual assault allegations made against Bauer by a San Diego woman who sought a restraining order against him in June.

234

DPR
ID: 91461021
Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 10:02

I am still in if we are doing this and would miss the league but can tell interest is waning. Should we try to save the league and run as fewer teams or something?

235

GO
ID: 35231211
Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 16:12

Returning
GO
PermDude
dpr
Loki
Holt
wiggs
DaBomb
TAXMAN-NEW

Out
Astade
Tree
Goat
Bean

Pending confirmation
Khahan -- where you at? you're always first to check in...

Anyone lurking... we've got a few teams available.

Since the new owners would be acquiring players as well as traded picks, I think the way I want to do it is a lottery with the 4 new managers. Let them pick which franchise they want (players, picks, drat slot... the whole package).

236

holt
ID: 40943015
Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 12:03

Guys, the first game of the season is like 2.5 weeks away if I'm not mistaken and we're still a few managers short. I'm just going to bow out at this point. Think I'm going to reduce my fantasy baseball activity to just one league this year. My dad passed away last August and opening day doesn't feel exciting to me, for whatever reason. Probably will just play RIBC so I don't totally lose touch with the game.

237

GO
ID: 35231211
Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 09:34

Thanks Holt. Sorry to hear about your father.

If we do get some people to step up and have a timeline I'll check back in with you one last time.

As we are a keeper league and half the draft is already "done", I think this year's unique circumstances would be fine to do a live online Yahoo draft so we could wait till the last minute with as much information as possible about players. If we don't have a batch of new managers step up, then its a moot point. Will open a thread and see what happens.

238

GO
ID: 35231211
Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:48

Looks like we didn't get enough turnout so we'll call it a day. I'll be checking if anyone had any rollover balances to distribute and dish those out accordingly.

We almost hit the 20 year mark - impressive! I see myself, Khahan, Holt, Da Bomb, astade and wiggs from that original lineup. Crazy.

239

wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 10:56

sad to see this happening- this was a fun league

240

loki
ID: 57252918
Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 19:06

I joined the Dirty Dozen a number of years after its inception and have enjoyed playing with all of you. I do not think I ever made the podium, never won a prize, but that did not diminish the fun I had in the league.
I'd like to see minibios of our members. Any others interested?
Good luck to everyone!!

241

GO
ID: 34025146
Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 16:15

I tell ya, if we could still get 10 I'd be down for doing a live draft to keep this thing afloat. Could always expand back to 12 at a later date.

Could do a live draft Wednesday night.

242

taxman
ID: 262341418
Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 18:48

I'm still interested

243

taxman
ID: 262341418
Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 18:48

I'm still interested

244

loki
ID: 57252918
Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 20:53

Love to play.

245

Perm Dude
ID: 71111821
Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 20:56

I'm down.

246

GO
ID: 35231211
Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 09:09

I emailed Khahan cause he's been missing from this discussion. I think we'd need him at a minimum to even get to 10. Hope he's ok.

Forum: basePage 20578Subject: Dirty Dozen 2021

Forum: base
Page 20578
Subject: Dirty Dozen 2021