Forum: foot
Page 3871
Subject: Raiders Management Are Idiots

  Posted by: MadDOG - [2783045] Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 14:35
A fifth and a sixth round pick for Marques Anderson the Packers backup safety?

You got to be kidding me? Trust me I follow the Packers and the guy sucks. He's bad in coverage and makes alot of mistakes.

Who the hell trades to fairly high draft picks for a backup safety who was in danger of getting cut last week? What a steal of a trade for the Packers.

Here's what Football Forecaster says about Anderson.


GOING INTO CAMP: Anderson will battle free agent Mark Roman for the starting job at free safety.
ASSETS: Solid all-around athlete Pursues plays sideline-to-sideline. Is very strong for his size. Makes good decisions in zone coverage.
FLAWS: Doesn't change directions well and has trouble in man-to-man coverage. Lacks exceptional ball skills. A lights-out hitter who misses his mark and leaves his feet. Makes bad decisions and gets over-aggressive at times.
CAREER POTENTIAL: Stopgap starter.
 
1MadDOG
      ID: 2783045
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 14:42 		Oakland still has 2 sixth round picks from previous deals but it is still alot to give up for Anderson.
 
2dgrooves
      ID: 513181020
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:11 		Im almost certain that there are only 7 rounds in the NFL draft, so how do picks in the 5th and 6th rounds qualify as "fairly high draft picks"?
 
3TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:11 		One man's trash is another man's treasure.

From the SFGate:

The day after losing a safety, the Raiders added one, though they say the two are not necessarily cause and effect.

Marques Anderson, a third-year safety out of UCLA, was acquired in a trade from the Packers on Friday afternoon for fifth- and six-round draft choices in 2005. Anderson, who started 18 games in two seasons at Green Bay, joins a team that finds itself at least temporarily minus its starting strong safety. Derrick Gibson dislocated his right shoulder in Thursday night's victory over the Rams.

Coach Norv Turner said in a conference call Friday that Gibson's condition was still being evaluated. However, barring a miraculous recovery, he is out of the Sept. 12 regular-season opener at Pittsburgh, and Anderson is certainly coming in at an opportune time. Still, Turner said he might have become a Raider anyway.

"He's a guy we've kind of had in our sights for really a week to 10 days, '' Turner said. "And Mr. Davis sent me over a tape last week to look at.''

When Al Davis sends a tape, coaches watch it.

"He's a good tackler, a physical guy and he can help us,'' Turner said of Anderson. "Obviously the timing of it with Derrick, it's something we needed. But it's something we had an interest in all along.''

Anderson, who lost out to free agent Mark Roman for a starting job as the Packers' strong safety during training camp, told the Associated Press he expected to start right away in Oakland. However, he had best talk to Turner before he gets too excited about that.

"If I can pick up the system quick enough, they want to see if I can start in Pittsburgh,'' AP quoted Anderson.

Turner put the kibosh on that.

"I think that would be very difficult,'' he said. "If there were a role he could play, where he could come in on short-yardage or goal-line package, or in our eight-man front, something like that. But it would be hard for him to come in and play in a major role.''

Ike Charlton, the free agent acquisition who has been working at cornerback and safety during the offseason and training camp, was the first replacement for Gibson on Thursday night. But as he did immediately after the game, Turner stopped short of saying Charlton would take over.

"There are a number of things we are looking at,'' Turner said. "Those safeties are interchangeable. We have played a variety of guys at safety.''

Included among the possibilities is rookie Stuart Schweigert, the third- round draft choice out of Purdue.

"He's made progress in each of the games and he's made progress in training camp,'' Turner said. "He had an impact physically on this game (Thursday) with his run support and his tackling. He's one of the guys we'll talk about in that spot.''

As for Gibson, Turner said the Raiders should know more within the next three days.

"The doctors are going to look at it again. He is going to get some more tests,'' Turner said. "It sounds to me ... that at some point will need surgery. It's a matter of do they do it now or wait and see where he is and see if there is something they can do to get him back sooner.''

Turner said he was told surgery would keep Gibson out eight weeks.

"It's disappointing because of the way Derrick was playing and the way he was working, but it is something that if you look around the league teams have had,'' Turner said. "We've got to overcome it. We are capable of overcoming it. We have guys who can go in there and play.''

Briefly: Turner said linebackers Napoleon Harris and DeLawrence Grant, who both underwent arthroscopic knee surgery last month, are progressing faster than expected and might be able to play in the opener. "They are closer than we imagined a week ago,'' Turner said. ... The Raiders must cut their roster to 53 players by Sunday.
 
4TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:17 		Just to add on to what dgrooves said, this is from the Oakland Tribune:

EXTRA POINTS: Anderson is in the third year of a three-year contract that pays him $380,000 this season. The Raiders were able to use the fifth- and sixth-round picks in the 2005 draft secure in the knowledge that they already had two additional sixth-round picks through previous deals. ... CB James Bethea of Cal was waived to make room for Anderson. ... Turner would not commit to a starting offensive line to face Pittsburgh, noting that his top eight linemen -- starters Barry Sims, Frank Middleton, Adam Treu, Ron Stone and Langston Walker, plus reserves Brad Badger, Robert Gallery and Jake Grove, are all capable of starting. ... Turner left open the possibility that the club would keep all four tight ends -- Doug Jolley, Roland Williams, Teyo Johnson and rookie Courtney Anderson.
 
5MadDOG
      ID: 2783045
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:19 		DGrooves, you don't want me to pull out a list of NFL pro bowlers who were drafted in the 5th and 6th round do you?

The Raiders paid a high price for a guy who couldn't beat out Antwan Edwards last year or Mark Roman this year. Neither of which are world beaters at safety themselves.
 
6MadDOG
      ID: 2783045
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:20 		BTW, DGrooves. You want to talk about Darren Woodson or Ricky Williams again?


LOL.
 
7TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:27 		There are Pro-Bowlers who were walk-ons or drafted in the 12th round back when the draft was longer too. I am guessing that at least 4 of the Raider draft picks don't make the roster this year. Personally, I don't like Gibson and would like to see the Raiders shed his salary and give Schweigert the job. Anderson has a cheap contract and if they say he is a good tackler, I am all for adding him. Our biggest problem has been making tackles in the secondary.
 
8dgrooves
      ID: 513181020
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:28 		First of all, I never said a single thing about what types of players are available in the 5th and 6th rounds. I simply showed that there's no reason to consider them "high" picks if they're very close to the end of the draft.

Secondly, you were and still are wrong about Woodson. When TarHeelKid and I posted [43 days ago], we had the correct information. Your claim that he might be done for the season was never correct.

Finally, I will stand by my comment that you claiming no one will want Williams if he were to return is foolish.






LOL.
 
9MadDOG
      ID: 2783045
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:29 		Here's a few late round draft picks.


10. Gary Anderson

After being taken in the seventh round of the 1982 draft with the 171st selection, this kicker went on to do great things. He retired in 2003 as the league's leading scorer with 2,226 points and topped the all-time field goal-list with 521 converted kicks in 650 tries (80.2 percent).

9. Dante Hall

This lightning-fast kick-return specialist was selected with the 153rd pick of the 2000 draft. With four kickoff/punt returns for touchdowns in 2003, he stands out as one of the game's brightest young stars.

8. Zach Thomas

He is the anchor of the Miami Dolphins' defensive core but it comes as a shock to many that this all-star linebacker was taken in the fifth round with the 154th overall pick in 1996.

7. Joe Horn

In 1996, a young wide receiver from Itawamba Junior College was selected with the 135th pick overall. Hundreds of cell phone bills later, this standout receiver for the New Orleans Saints has proven that greatness can be found even in round five.

6. Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila

In the fifth round of the 2000 draft, a young defensive end was taken from San Diego State University. In only three years in the NFL, KGB has turned himself into a quarterback's worst nightmare and one of the Packer's all-star ends.

5. Marc Bulger

He started as a young gun at Central Catholic High School in Pittsburgh, moved his way to West Virginia University and is now the starting quarterback for the St. Louis Rams. That's not too shabby for a man taken in the sixth round with the 168th pick.

4. Stephen Davis

In the fourth round of the 1996 draft, a young Auburn running back was taken with the 102nd pick overall. Seven years later, Stephen Davis led the Carolina Panthers to their first Super Bowl appearance and a Pro-Bowl appearance for himself.

3. Ahman Green

A perennial all-star, Ahman Green was a little-known running back from Nebraska when he was selected with the 76th pick overall in 1998. Since then, he's been nothing short of amazing for the Green Bay Packers, helping them balance a prolific offensive machine.

2. Terrell Davis

Running behind John Elway and the Denver Broncos, Davis led his team to consecutive Super Bowls in 1998 and 1999. However, it was a far cry from 1995 when Davis was taken in the sixth round with the 196th overall pick.

1. Tom Brady

By now the entire country knows his story, but it is always worth repeating. Brady was taken in the sixth round with the 199th overall selection in 2000 and went on to lead his team to two Super Bowls in three years and earn a Super Bowl MVP. His performance makes him one of the greatest late-round selections of all time.
 
10dgrooves
      ID: 513181020
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:32 		Congratulations on completly missing the point of my post.
 
11MadDOG
      ID: 2783045
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:34 		DGrooves, do you understand what the word "might" means? Since when does "6-8 weeks from July 24th" and "a few early games" mean that he goes on the PUP list and will miss the first 5 games minimum.


18 MadDOG
ID: 12658246
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 08:09 Well Dallas has a new running back but now they need to find a new Safety since Darren Woodson ruptured a disk in his back and might be out for the season.



19 dgrooves
ID: 513181020
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 09:08 Not sure where you're getting your info, but its actually part of the season. SportsCenter this morning said 6 - 8 weeks, meaning he may miss a few early games, but not the entire season. Other articles Ive read confirm this.



20 TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Sat, Jul 24, 2004, 13:44 Yea, I have heard he will miss Week 1 and MAYBE Week 2...

Hopefully they will move Roy over and let him dominate in my dynasty league IDPs! ;-) Although as a Cowboy fan I hate to see this.

THK
 
12MadDOG
      ID: 2783045
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:36 		DGrooves, your only point is that you are wrong most of the time.

I don't listen to a word you say.
 
13dgrooves
      ID: 513181020
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:38 		You cant be serious. 43 days ago, TarHeelKid and I posted the correct information. Of course things can change in the time between then and now.

Your claim that he might be done for the season was incorrect then, and is still incorrect now.
 
14dgrooves
      ID: 513181020
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:39 		No one listens to a word you say.

Im done with this moronic conversation.
 
15MadDOG
      ID: 2783045
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:41 		Look up the word "might" in the dictionary.

He's already missing 5/16ths of the season for sure. The cowboys are gonna need somebody else to play safety for those 5 games aren't they genius?

 
16TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 15:51 		At least quote your source, Misjap.

Here is where I copy and paste from
 
17KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 16:48 		MadDOG, your logic just doesn't make sense. You're proposing that since there have been good players drafted late that late-round draft picks are valuable. That's absurd! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again. You found 10 good players who were drafted late. That's less than half a percent of the players drafted in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds (the ones you pulled players from) since 1982. Even if you found 100 good players drafted in the 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th rounds since 1982, that would still be less than 4% of the players drafted in those rounds.

The late rounds of the draft are always for taking a risk on a guy who showed some potential or trying to find a warm body who might, emphasize MIGHT, fill a hole. OAK essentially did that with this trade, so what's the difference?

 
18sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 16:49 		just to toss out a curveball, how many 1st round picks were out of the league after 2 yrs? (I have no idea, but I'd wager its more than people care to think about.)

Where in the draft a player goes, really only impacts one thing...(OK, 2 these days) size of contract and length of holdout.
 
19KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 16:52 		how many 1st round picks were out of the league after 2 yrs? (I have no idea, but I'd wager its more than people care to think about.)

I'd further wager that it's fewer than the number of picks from the 5th round or higher who were out of the league after 2 years.

It's not JUST about contract and holdout. A lot of times, it really is about talent.

 
20kev
      ID: 3155515
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 17:51 		Why would anyone worry about trading draft picks to the Green Bay Packers? Did you look at the Packers draft this year? They traded up in the third round, AND TOOK A KICKER!

To fill a gap needed, giving up 2 junk picks to a team not in your conference that doesn't have a good track record of draft picks, seems fine to me.

I can name you a bunch of players that have been cut before, or lost out in battles, and went on to star- should I name them too? How bout Kurt Warner and Rich Gannon to start.
 
21rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 18:05 		Jeff Lewis was 4th round pick, I believe! :)
 
22sarge33rd
      ID: 50740207
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 18:45 		KKB, that 1st rd draft picks are generally more talented than 5th rd picks is not in question. Thats a given. Being however a first rd pick, certainly does not provide any assurances of success within the NFL. Nor does being an undrafted walk-on, preclude success in the NFL.
 
23KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 18:48 		sarge, no doubt. Though I guess an extension of the contract would be how much of a chance the player gets with the team. In other words, if a team has just signed a guy to a multi-million dollar contract, he's going to get more chances at success than a late round guy who is signed for the league minimum. Maybe not rightfully so, but he will.
 
24MadDOG
      ID: 55836417
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 18:48 		Kev (Bear Fan), it's interesting that you say that 5th and 6th round picks are junk.

Did you know that 2 of the Bears top 3 receivers came out of the 5th round last year?

Bobby Wade #139 and Justin Gage #143 were both 5th round picks.

Joe Odom and Brock Forsey came out of the 6th round.

You Bear fans just don't know to never mess with a Packer fan. LOL.


Anybody who thinks 5th and 6th round picks are garbage picks, doesn't know football. End of discussion.
 
25MadDOG
      ID: 55836417
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 18:53 		How many starters and top backups can you find on this list of last years 5th and 6th round?

Diehl is now a starter on the Giants O-Line. Bollinger was backing up Pennington until the Jets signed Quincy Carter. James Lee is a top backup tackle with the Packers this year. Koppen is the starting center for the Patriots.

I don't have the time to go on.



Round 5
Sel# Team Player Pos. School
136 Cincinnati Khalid Abdullah OLB Mars Hill
137 Detroit Terrence Holt FS North Carolina State
138 Indianapolis Robert Mathis DE Alabama A&M
139 Chicago Bobby Wade WR Arizona
140 N.Y. Jets Derek Pagel FS Iowa
141 Arizona Kenny King DE Alabama
142 Cleveland Ryan Pontbriand C Rice
143 Chicago Justin Gage WR Missouri
144 Detroit James Davis MLB West Virginia
145 Carolina Kindal Moorehead DT Alabama
146 Baltimore Aubrayo Franklin NT Tennessee
147 Green Bay James Lee DT Oregon State
148 St. Louis Dan Curley TE Eastern Washington
149 San Diego Mike Scifres K Western Illinois
150 N.Y. Jets Matt Walters DE Miami
151 Buffalo Ben Sobieski G Iowa
152 Cleveland Michael Lehan CB Minnesota
153 Kansas City Jordan Black G Notre Dame
154 Tennessee Donnie Nickey FS Ohio State
155 New Orleans Melvin Williams DE Kansas State
156 Miami Donald Lee TE Mississippi State
157 Denver Ben Claxton C Mississippi
158 Denver Adrian Madise WR Texas Christian
159 Atlanta Jon Olinger WR Cincinnati
160 N.Y. Giants David Diehl G Illinois
161 San Francisco Aaron Walker TE Florida
162 Indianapolis Keyon Whiteside OLB Tennessee
163 Pittsburgh Brian St. Pierre QB Boston College
164 New England Dan Koppen C Boston College
165 Seattle Chris Davis FB Syracuse
166 Green Bay Hunter Hillenmeyer MLB Vanderbilt
167 Oakland Doug Gabriel WR Central Florida
168 Tampa Bay Sean Mahan G Notre Dame
169 Miami J.R. Tolver WR San Diego State
170 St. Louis Shane Walton FS Notre Dame
171 Chicago Tron LaFavor DT Florida
172 St. Louis Kevin Garrett CB Southern Methodist
173 Baltimore Tony Pashos T Illinois

Round 6
Sel# Team Player Pos. School
174 Cincinnati Langston Moore DT South Carolina
175 Detroit David Kircus WR Grand Valley State
176 Jacksonville Brandon Green DE Rice
177 Arizona Reggie Wells T Clarion, Pa.
178 Dallas B.J. Tucker DB Wisconsin
179 Jacksonville David Young SS Georgia Southern
180 Minnesota Eddie Johnson P Idaho State
181 Miami Corey Jenkins OLB South Carolina
182 Baltimore Gerome Sapp SS Notre Dame
183 Seattle Rashad Moore DT Tennessee
184 St. Louis Scott Tercero G California
185 Philadelphia Jeremy Bridges T Southern Mississippi
186 Dallas Zuriel Smith WR Hampton
187 Buffalo Lauvale Sape DT Utah
188 San Diego Hanik Milligan DB Houston
189 Kansas City Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
190 Minnesota Mike Nattiel OLB Florida
191 Chicago Joe Odom OLB Purdue
192 Houston Drew Henson QB Michigan
193 Jacksonville Marques Ogden T Howard
194 Denver Aaron Hunt DE Texas Tech
195 Cleveland Antonio Garay DT Boston College
196 Atlanta LaTarence Dunbar WR Texas Christian
197 San Francisco Arnaz Battle WR Notre Dame
198 Indianapolis Cato June OLB Michigan
199 N.Y. Giants Willie Ponder WR S.E. Missouri
200 N.Y. Jets Brooks Bollinger QB Wisconsin
201 New England Kliff Kingsbury QB Texas Tech
202 Atlanta Waine Bacon DB Alabama
203 New Orleans Kareem Kelly WR Southern California
204 Oakland Dustin Rykert T Brigham Young
205 Tampa Bay Torrie Cox DB Pittsburgh
206 Chicago Brock Forsey RB Boise State
208 Indianapolis Makoa Freitas G Arizona
209 Miami Tim Provost T San Jose State
210 Arizona Tony Gilbert LB Georgia
211 N.Y. Giants David Tyree WR Syracuse
212 Green Bay Brennan Curtin T Notre Dame
213 Miami Yeremiah Bell DB Eastern Kentucky
214 Houston Keith Wright DT Missouri
 
26MadDOG
      ID: 55836417
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 18:54 		Arnaz Battle is the #3 or #4 reciever for the 49ers.
 
27KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 19:08 		Arnaz Battle is the #3 or #4 reciever for the 49ers.

Wow! Now THERE's something to be proud of. You're the #3 or #4 receiver on a team that has, well, no receivers. And FWIW, RotoWire lists him as the #5 receiver on the San Francisco No-Handers.

The point isn't that 5th round and 6th round picks are junk, just that they're not exactly "fairly high draft picks", like you're trying to make them sound like. "Fairly high draft picks" to me (and most other people familiar with the NFL draft) is a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Not a pick that I can get Brian St. Pierre or some of the other non-starters, non-backups on the list of names you posted. Sure there are SOME, but again, you're talking the minority of the picks, not to mention a lot of these guys are getting time right now because they were just picked. Teams are seeing if they're worth the league minimum or worth shipping off to NFL Europe. See how many of them are around in 2+ years. I'm willing to bet it will be a smaller minority than those guys picked with true "fairly high draft picks" in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

 
28MadDOG
      ID: 55836417
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 19:17 		KKB, Ron Wolf, one of the greatest GM's in the history of the NFL, held on to late round picks like they were gold.

It's safe to say he knows 10 times as much about football as you do. He knew he could find gems in the late rounds and he did.

You mentioned Arnaz Battle. How about the 7 or 8 other guys I mentioned. Wade, Gage, Diehl, Odom, Forsey, Bollinger, Koppen, Lee.

And I was just quick scanning the list. I know I could find more guys who are gonna play important roles this year.
 
29MadDOG
      ID: 55836417
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 19:18 		Drew Henson was #192 last year. He'll be starting next year.
 
30MadDOG
      ID: 55836417
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 19:20 		Mike Nattiel is the top backup linebacker for the Vikings. He actually was going to be the starter early this year but the rookie Dontarrius Thomas beat him out.
 
32KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 20:26 		MadDOG, you can scan the list all you like. The fact is that OAK did get a starter for the picks they gave up. Period. You're talking about a small percentage of the picks who are starters. I'm saying there was no guessing game with the route OAK went with. They got a starter for their picks. Not every team can say that out of their 5th/6th round picks, so they're ahead of the game and not idiots. It's just as safe to say that OAK's front office knows ten times as much about football as you do as well.
 
33TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 20:33 		KKB, if #17 and #27 didn't bring him any light, nothing else you say is going to.

Drew Henson....lol. Whatever.
 
34Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 041831612
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 23:33 		MadDOG, just answer one question:

In your initial post, did you or did you not know that the draft is 7 rounds??

I can't imagine you did, and thus the "two fairly high draft picks" comment. It would have made more sense to say "oops, I didn't realize that," versus going on a research-of-late-draft-picks crusade.

My 2 cents.
 
35kev
      ID: 3155515
      Sat, Sep 04, 2004, 23:59 		That's where Maddog won't give. Saying they are high draft picks, then finding the few diamonds, or should I say, well, gems in the rough doesn't make up for saying a 5th or 6th rounder is a high draft pick. To get a starter out of a 5th or 6th rounder, is good. Mostly when you have extra picks.

Here is what you want to look at- since 2000, the Raiders have had 10 picks in round 5 or 6. Only 2 of them have had any sort of impact- Lechler and Doug Gabriel, who hasn't had an impact, but looks like he could this year.

Since 2000, the Packers have only had one player out of 7 taken in the 5th or 6th round make an impact- Gbaja-Biamila.

To trade 2 draft picks, in which both teams have had less than stellar results in, for a safety that is going to start for you, seems like a pretty nice move for both teams- the Packers get 2 draft picks that they can waste on more kickers like this year, and the Raiders get a starting safety to fill a gap where an injury had left them depleted....how is this robbery?

Oh, and thanks for pointing out that the Bears are more succesful in the draft than the Packers....how is this proving your point? How many teams in the league would Gage and Wade be starting on? 4?
 
36kev
      ID: 3155515
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 00:01 		Maddog- also tell me on your list- how many of those players are no longer in the NFL? I bet you they outnumber the players making an impact.
 
37MadDOG
      ID: 25847423
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 01:09 		I was able to scan last year's 5th and 6th round a little more and found this.



Reggie Wells #177 is starting at guard on Arizona's offensive line this year.

James Davis #144 is starting at outside linebacker for Detroit this year.

Doug Gabriel is Oakland's #3 receiver and has been in the headlines all preseason.

Makoa Freitas started 6 games "last year" for Indianapolis and is now a top backup on their offensive line.

Rashard Moore is starting at right defensive tackle on Seattles Defensive line this year.


Do I need to go on. There is alot of guys on those lists above that are playing major major roles in the NFL.
 
38rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 01:17 		I'm just an observer in this thread, and i wonder in PGunn reads any of the responses?

Dude, they all know that there are going to be some 4,5,6th round pick do well and some FA do well... some may even be HOF'ers [so stop making lsists!]. They want to know if you realize/know that 5th and 6th round pick ARE NOT HIGH DRAFT CHOICES NO MATTER WHO IN HECK HAS MADE THE TEAM from various other drafts
 
39MadDOG
      ID: 25847423
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 01:23 		Some?

I must have pointed out 20 guys who are either starting or are top backups. That is just in last years draft. What about all the 5th and 6th rounds for the last 5 years?


That's my last post in this thread until next year when I found out who the Packers got in the draft for that piece of garbage safety named Marques Anderson. If he's starting for Oakland, than Oakland has a major problem.
 
40rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 01:59 		Dude....again.... R-E-A-D this.

Some is not the question at hand. High draft choice is the question at hand. Do a search of this thread.... YOU are the one that classified what OAK gave up as "fairly high draft picks [PLEASE REFER TO YOUR ORIGINAL POST] Unless you define for me how (mathermatically) the pickS that come at the END of the draft are fairly high , please give up.

As far as listing players who have collected various NFL paychecks that were LOW draft picks.. you win.. you win... you are right.. you win.. you are right!!!

maybe it's too cold in MIL to read? Or maybe you are just to grumpy, PGUNN about who started the Action Thread! You know what I mean.
 
41Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 041831612
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 08:07 		MadDOG, just answer one question:

In your initial post, did you or did you not know that the draft is 7 rounds??

I can't imagine you did, and thus the "two fairly high draft picks" comment. It would have made more sense to say "oops, I didn't realize that," versus going on a research-of-late-draft-picks crusade.

My 2 cents. Posted again since it was ignored.
 
42TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 13:12 		I almost posted the exact same thing earlier, Mike D. I was thinking about this thread and wondered why the topic moved off in this direction. I mean, for everyone who has been a football fan prior to the draft being dropped down to 7 rounds, every draft pick these days seem like "high" picks. Yeah, it's silly that Maddog is the only guy reading this thread and not getting everyone else's point, but what if Green Bay cut Anderson today and the Raiders could have got him for nothing? I see both sides to this discussion. The Raiders got a possible starter for a 5th and 6th (low picks in today's draft) and Green Bay got two picks for a player they might have cut. I got a chuckle the other day when the Raiders got a draft pick by sending Hambrick and a toss-in to Arizona. Both were going to be cut and the Raiders got a draft pick. Both trades were win-win for each team. The Raiders and Cards got players they wanted without having to gamble they would clear waivers and the Packers and Raiders got draft picks for players they no longer needed.
 
43MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:40 		Guess I don't have to wait until next year.

The Packers have already traded the two draft picks they got from Oakland for defensive end R-Kal Truluck for Kansas City.

Here's a little story about R-Kal Truluck.

What the hell kind of name is R-Kal?
 
44TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:46 		Does this make Green Bay management idiots too?
 
45TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:48 		Couch Released

Maybe not. ;)
 
46MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:51 		Look man, Marques Anderson sucks. You'll be finding that out shortly. Two draft picks for Marques Anderson is a steal.

I don't know much about this R-Kal guy but read that article. The guy looks like a decent player.
 
47MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:52 		Yea, releasing Couch was the right move. He was horrible this preseason.

And they kept Craig Nall who still might turn out to be a decent quarterback. He's got a really strong arm.
 
48Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 041831612
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:52 		MadDOG, just answer one question:

In your initial post, did you or did you not know that the draft is 7 rounds??

I can't imagine you did, and thus the "two fairly high draft picks" comment. It would have made more sense to say "oops, I didn't realize that," versus going on a research-of-late-draft-picks crusade.

My 2 cents. Posted for the 3rd time since it was ignored.
 
49MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:55 		What's your problem man?
 
50MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 18:57 		I have a feeling that Al Davis probably saw Marques Anderson play at UCLA and might have liked him coming out that year.

Too bad he chose to forget about the 2 years he played with Green Bay.
 
51TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:04 		He didn't do a bad job with Green Bay. I would say his resume is a little better than Kal El, father of Superman, right now.
 
52TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:07 		I mean, think about it. The Chiefs trade away a defense player? It's not like they are overloaded with defensive talent. Green Bay traded their back-up safety for the Arena league indoor Rookie of the Year from 2001...lol
 
53TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:12 		Add to that he is 30 years old, with 3 years pro experience and a whole 20 tackles. Green Bay made out like bandits. =)
 
54MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:15 		Looks like he had 6 sacks in 15 games last year if you include the playoff game (if that bio below is correct). Sounds good to me. The Packers need a pass rusher. And that article above says he put on some weight this offseason.

K-Kal Truluck's bio
 
55TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:17 		Did you know that Anderson was fifth on the Packers for total tackles last year with 74? He also tied for the team lead with 2 fumble recoveries.
 
56TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:18 		Kal Truluck had 5 sacks last year and a half-sack the year before.
 
57KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:20 		Wow, a sack against BUF (weak! 1st in sacks allowed), CLE (weak! 13th in sacks allowed), OAK (weak! 9th in sacks allowed), and 2, count 'em, against CHI (weak! 7th in sacks allowed). The only worthy sack he had last year was against IND in the playoffs. The funny thing is that he only had 11 tackles and all but one (IND) were against weak teams (BUF, CLE, CIN, OAK, SDG, DET, and CHI). Yeah, GNB made out like bandits on that deal.
 
58MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:21 		Guess we will just have to wait and see who helps their team more. If Marques Anderson helps the Raiders I will take back the statements I made in this thread.
 
59MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:26 		KKB, if you do some more research I will guarantee you you find alot of big name defensive linemen who didn't have six sacks last year.

Also, aren't good pass rushers supposed to get sacks against weak teams.? Look up Michael Stahan or Jason Taylor and I guarantee you they got alot of sacks against weak teams.

I'm not even saying this guy is good or bad but some of his stats from last year are decent.

I can't believe I have never heard of him. Guess I'm not following Kansas City enough.
 
60TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:27 		So seriously, did you or did you not know that the draft is 7 rounds?

I think you did and just meant that Anderson is not worth trading any picks for. Heck, they might even be conditional picks. I hope the Raiders put Gibson on the IR so they don't have to hold a roster slot for him. Even better would be to have an injury settlement and let him go his own way. Schweigert is the future and maybe he and Anderson pair up next year to form a solid combo.
 
61MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:29 		Marcellus Wiley only had 3 sacks last year and Dallas is pinning their hopes on him.
 
62MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:31 		They aren't conditional picks.
 
63MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:33 		Of course I knew it was 7 rounds. Why are you guys so stuck on the words "fairly high"?

The whole point of this thread is that 5th and 6th round draft picks are valuable and Marques Anderson IMHO is not worth it.

I know you can get decent players in the 5th and 6th rounds that's why I said "fairly high".
 
64TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:34 		Wiley had had two bad years in a row and played for the Chargers. He should be better with a stronger supporting cast, but then again, nobody is arguing what his worth is.

In essence, the Packers traded Anderson for Kal Truluck. Is that a good trade?
 
65MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:34 		If this R-Kal Truluck turns out to be a bust this year, I will say Green Bay management are idiots.
 
66KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:53 		LOL! (seriously, I'm laughing out loud over here). MadDOG, you should try out for Last Comic Standing because a lot of what you're saying is just hilarious.

I can't believe I have never heard of him. Guess I'm not following Kansas City enough.

Or, it could be that a guy who had 6 sacks and 11 tackles against some of the weakest offensive lines in the NFL isn't really worth hearing about.

Marcellus Wiley only had 3 sacks last year and Dallas is pinning their hopes on him.

Well, gee, it could be because of those 51 tackles he had. He only had 3 sacks last year because SDG sucked all the way around. Personally, I'll take a guy who can give me 51 tackles and 3 sacks over a guy who'll give me 11 tackles and 6 sacks any day. Oh, and 2 of those 3 sacks came against CAR (8th fewest sacks allowed) and NOR (17th fewest sacks allowed). Not exactly chopped liver.

Why are you guys so stuck on the words "fairly high"?

Because it's the basis of your argument. Your argument was, "Who the hell trades to fairly high draft picks for a backup safety who was in danger of getting cut last week? What a steal of a trade for the Packers." So if the basis of your argument is flawed, then the argument is flawed. THAT's why everyone's stuck on it. A 5th and 6th round pick is NEVER, repeat NEVER, going to be considered "fairly high" in a 7-round draft. "Farily high" in a 7-round draft is a 2nd/3rd rounder. That's just common sense/logic.

 
67TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:54 		Looks like it was a smart move for them. They were overloaded at safety with Sharper, Roman, Bhawoh Jue, Fuller, and Curry. They aren't so strong at DE. Gbaja-Biamilla is solid at one side but who starts on the other? Holmes? Kampman?
 
68KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:57 		If this R-Kal Truluck turns out to be a bust this year, I will say Green Bay management are idiots.

Why wait until after the year is over? You didn't give OAK management that luxury. Why not look at the fact that Truluck couldn't even find a consistent playing time, or a start, as a DE on the 3rd worst rushing defense in the league and say that GNB management are already idiots? It's the logic you used for OAK.

 
69MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 19:58 		KKB, R-Kal Truluck was a part time player for Kansas City. Probably in passing situations.

I think Marcellus Wiley was a full time player. That's why his tackles are higher.

Like I said before, I don't know whether this guy is good or bad. But, 6 sacks in 15 games for a part time pass rusher is pretty good. You gotta think he might be able to duplicate that at least this year and I think he's gonna get more playing time with Green Bay than he got with Kansas City.
 
70MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:03 		Julius Peppers of the Panthers only had 7 sacks last year and he's considered one of the best defensive linemen in the league.

Jevon Kearse only had 9.5 sacks and the Eagles just gave him 40 or 50 million bucks.
 
71kev
      ID: 3155515
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:05 		Maybe he is a part time player because he isn't that good in any situation that doesn't involve "3rd and long". Just maybe....
 
72MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:06 		TB, Kenny Holmes got cut today. Aaron Kampman is the starter. He's pretty good against the run so maybe Truluck will come in on passing downs.

Sounds like a plan.
 
73KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:16 		MadDOG, since when is sacks the only determination of a good lineman? Jevon Kearse also had 42 tackles, 1 INT, 4 forced fumbles, 1 pass defended, and was a starter. Peppers had 46 tackles, 3 forced fumbles, 3 passes defended, and was a starter.

And why did Kearse get paid? Maybe because he had sacks against TAM (5th fewest sacks allowed), NWE (14th fewest sacks allowed), NYJ (13th fewest sacks allowed), and GNB (2!, 2nd fewest sacks allowed). See, he's getting his against weak teams AND tough teams. THAT's why he's getting paid.

MadDOG, you're really starting to come across as not knowing much about football (either that, or a blind homer). I'm certainly no expert on football (I'm more a baseball and hockey guy), but to try to compare Truluck, who could barely play on one of the weakest defenses in the NFL, to Kearse and Peppers is pretty bad, IMHO.

 
74KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:17 		For informational purposes, Truluck has 0 INT, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 passes defended... in his career.
 
75MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:20 		KKB, Truluck is a situational pass rusher. How many times do I have to tell you that? And 6 sacks in 15 games is pretty good for a defensive end.

I'm throwing out Peppers and Kearse sack totals to prove that point to you.

BTW, you think the Eagles signed Kearse because he's good against the run? He better get some serious sack totals with the Eagles or the Philly press is going to be all over him.
 
76Athletics Guy
      ID: 18830317
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:22 		Let's not forget that Peppers and Kearse also get double-teamed a lot, something that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.
 
77MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:25 		Also, I bet you most of those forced fumbles you are talking about with Peppers and Kearse probably came from the quarterback that they were sacking.
 
78MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:26 		Good point Athletics guy.
 
79KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:28 		Actually, I'm sure Truluck gets triple teamed since he's such an awesome situational pass rusher.

;)

 
80MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:30 		I have already said that I will call Green Bay management idiots if this guy doesn't help the team.

And I will do it for the same reason I called Oakland management idiots.

Because 5th and 6th round draft picks are valuable.
 
81MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:31 		Maybe Kansas City has the smartest management? :)
 
82MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:32 		Getting Priest Holmes from Baltimore was a pretty good move.


LOL.
 
83rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:34 		...Then every draft pick is valuable and every time any management trades one for a player that doesn't work out they are idiots... by apllication of your logic, every management team in the hisory of football is idiots. ;)
 
84MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:39 		They didn't trade one pick. They traded two picks.

And they traded them for a guy that was about to get cut or barely survive the cuts.
 
85TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:49 		I was just looking at the cuts Green Bay made. They waived Curtis Fuller and Julius Curry at safety. With Chris Johnson on the PUP list, that leaves only Sharper, Roman, and Jue. At DE, they not only cut Holmes, but Nwokorie and Rogers as well. That leaves them with Corey Williams, Jadae McGuire, Seante Williams, and Supermans Dad as back-ups.
 
86MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:50 		Hey Truluck had 3 QB pressures and 14 assists on tackles too last year I just found out from the Kansas City website.

Things are looking better and better. I'm sure you are all overjoyed with this news. :)
 
87MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:55 		McQuire and Seante Williams got cut.

They are high on Corey Williams a 3rd round pick this year I think.

I was surprised the cut Tyrone Rogers. He played well in the preseason.

The kept a guy named Cullen Jenkins who is the older brother of Carolina defensive linemen Kris Jenkins who is an all pro I think. Jenkins also played well in the preseason.
 
88KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:57 		GNB must have been looking at the KAN web site because Yahoo, NFL.com, and CBS Sportsline all have him with just 2 assisted tackles. KAN seems to have him down for an extra solo tackle as well. Nothing like padding the stats before a trade, eh?
 
89MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 20:59 		Man, the Chiefs put Mike Maslowski on Injured Reserve meaning he's out for the season.

Their whole defense fell apart last year when he got hurt.
 
90MadDOG
      ID: 50836517
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 21:03 		Yea, who knows if he really had 14 assists on tackles.
 
91KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 22:25 		Who knows? Yeah, you've got a severe case of homerism.

Seems everybody, except the Chiefs web site, thinks Truluck got 2 assists last year. But, who knows, right?

Geez, you can't even admit when you found false data in the face of multiple sources, including NFL.com, refuting the data.

 
92TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Sep 05, 2004, 23:49 		Check this out:
At punter, the Packers are expected to begin the season with two punters, keeping both third-round draft choice B.J. Sander and 15th-year veteran Bryan Barker, signed Aug. 23.
WTF? Who needs two punters?
 
93Motley Crue
      ID: 181650
      Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 10:46 		I cannot believe this much time has been spent discussing Marques Anderson and R-Kal Truluk (Mientkixppgq!).

This is the kind of thread I'd expect to see in May, not 4 days before the first real game. I vote we let this dog die. I'm sure we'll be able to find it after the season when we can come back and review how these 2 stellar players performed.
 
94RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 14:04 		Bills management are idiots, as they "released two draft choices from the 2003 class: guard Ben Sobieski, a fifth-round pick, and defensive tackle Lauvale Sape, a sixth-rounder."
 
95RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 14:09 		From same link:

The Raven's are kinda idiots, as the "Ravens...cut eight players, including 2004 draft picks Tony Pashos and Brian Rimpf...Pashos, a tackle, was the Ravens' fifth-round choice. Rimpf, a guard, was chosen in the seventh round."

Atleast it was a low 7th round pick, not a high 6th rounder.
 
96rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 14:11 		So, how stupid is GB management? The cur a former #1 choice in Tim Couch!
 
97TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 14:46 		Sorry MC, I am with RSF, RFS, and KKB in that this thread was pretty fun. =)
 
98Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 041831612
      Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 14:52 		"Atleast it was a low 7th round pick, not a high 6th rounder."

LMAO!
 
99MadDOG
      ID: 7839617
      Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 18:58 		I almost made a post about Nick Rogers being released by the Vikings last night.

And now he's a Packer. Might be a decent pickup.
 
100kev
      ID: 3155515
      Mon, Sep 13, 2004, 20:35 		Just to give the guy his due, I just read this in ESPN insider...

"Sources close to the Packers say HC Mike Sherman should be both thrilled and surprised to score 5th and 6th round picks for SS Marques Anderson, who was dealt to Oakland before the final roster cuts. Anderson was a sloppy tackler who missed a lot of assignments last year"

MadDog, I give you your due.
 
101TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Mon, Sep 13, 2004, 20:46 		Why did you have Maddogs Due? How much Due could a Bears fan give out if a Bears fan could do Due.

Anderson has 3 tackles and 4 assists Sunday, btw.
 
102Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 041831612
      Mon, Sep 13, 2004, 21:13 		WTF does that post say TB? LMAO!
 
103MadDOG
      ID: 378121320
      Mon, Sep 13, 2004, 21:14 		Don't forget to look for R-Kal Truluck sacking Jake Delhomme tonight fellas.

R-Kal is a pass rushing god. :)
 
104 Jack
      ID: 983148
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 09:26 		Weird...Just an unbiased view from the sideline:



Maddog starts the thread by stating that 5th and 6th round picks were fairly high, and then later mentions that Packers GM Ron Wolf held on to late round picks like they were gold.


So are these picks fairly high, or late rounders? Hmm..or by going with this thought, maybe only the 7th round picks are late rounders.


How can you slot 5th and 6th round picks as fairly high, and then state that they are late rounders?
 
105Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 41831612
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 09:43 		Poetic license, I'm afraid.
 
106MadDOG
      ID: 50822147
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 10:11 		I have never seen so many guys miss the whole point of a thread because they are stuck on two words, "fairly high".


Ridiculous.
 
107Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 41831612
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 10:16 		What was the point Dog? Was it that Raiders Management Are Idiots?

 
108 Jack
      ID: 983148
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 10:41 		I thought the point you were trying to make was that the Raiders paid an insane price for this player. I think most of the following points were that a 5th and 6th round pick are not a high price, and therefore do not qualify the management of the Raiders to be deemed as Idiots.

Now if you want to look at their decisions in other areas, ie Warren Sapp, Kerry Collins as a highly paid back-up, etc, I would support your idiot claim,
 
109 Jack
      ID: 983148
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 10:43 		And if you think we are stuck on those 2 words, "Fairly High", then finally just admit you made a mistake already, and classify them as 2 lower round picks.

 
110KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 10:45 		MadDOG, you do realize that those 2 words are the crux of your argument, don't you?
 
111MadDOG
      ID: 50822147
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 11:29 		My argument is that a 5th and 6th round pick were too much for Marques Anderson. A first grader could tell that.

It's been turned into a thread about what the words "fairly high" mean.

BTW, Mike Sherman, Packer coach, made a statement that he was pleased with the pressure and pass rush that R-Kal was generating. I watched the whole game and didn't see him once. I don't even know what his number is or which side he is lining up on. But Sherman said he played well.
 
112KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 13:33 		MadDOG, it's probably because "fairly high" is the basis for you saying a 5th and 6th rounder are too much to pay. You see, you can't have one without the other, thus "fairly high" is the crux of your argument.
 
113BayAreaBlueJays
      ID: 57823142
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 14:43 		The guy who finished 8th in the 100m final in Athens did great...he finished fairly high,even though he was last.
 
114Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 41831612
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 14:55 		Can't argue with that. It's all perspective.
 
115Jack
      ID: 983148
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 16:48 		Hello all,


This is MadDOG. (ok, ok, it really isn't) I would like to end this message thread once and for all by finally admitting I used the wrong choice of words when I referred to a 5th and 6th round picks as fairly high picks. Sorry I was so stubborn, and instead of admitting I used the wrong words, I admit I just copied and pasted someone else's work on late round picks panning out.

I still agree he is not worth a bucket of footballs, but I finally will admit in writing that 5th and 6th round picks should never be referred to as being "fairly high".


Sorry for the confusion all.


Peace to you this Football Season.

Amen.


Brother.
 
117Micheal
      ID: 25381417
      Tue, Sep 14, 2004, 21:16 		I graduated fairly high in my class. 106th out of 112.