Self Editor

Forum: gent
Page 111
Subject: Poker Part III

Posted by: ChicagoTRS - [421042110] Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 15:51

New thread....discuss poker strategy, bad beats, big wins, big losses, etc...

Go...

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 15:55

Back up to the top...

Played a tournament for the first time in months...550 entrants managed to wade my way down to 14th place. Got lucky once with about 50 players left...got unlucky when I got knocked out...AK vs A9...of course two 9s on the flop.

I really should play tournaments more often...just hate committing that much time.

swami
ID: 75542011
Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 20:00

When and where is the rotoguru.com tourney? I just started playing poker (largely because of the TV and these threads) and am hooked on PokerStars. I'd love to see us pull something together.

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 20:10

Does FullTilt give out referral bonuses? I am going to sign up for an account.

THK
ID: 510431422
Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 21:43

I love PokerStars and think a majority of the Gurupies play on there from just talking with a few of them...

Would love to get a $10 private tournament or something (more if enough people are interested).

THK

Micheal
ID: 1010242320
Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 22:04

I'd be in...

wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 23:59

I play at bodog. It is a decent site and the easiet to get your money into. Atleast compared to the other sites I have seen.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Thu, Dec 01, 2005, 20:31

i thought once a week was enough, but I guess not.

I was dealt AA. Raise $5 (5x the big blind). One caller. Flop is A55. Yes, flopped a full boat. I raise 3x the pot (like 30ish). Same guy calls. Turn is 4. I'm all in for $70 more. He calls. He turns over 44. Anybody care to guess what the river is? Yes, a 4. :)

All done with that site. Taking some time off and then I'll try to find a new place to get runner'd.

culdeus
ID: 321042023
Thu, Dec 01, 2005, 21:48

10+1 SNGs are my atm machines.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 21431823
Thu, Dec 01, 2005, 22:10

You can't quit a site every time you get miracle miracled...it happens...

It happens in real poker...it happens in online poker...sometimes you lose when you are 95%+ favorite...you are not a 100% favorite.

I do know it sucks when it happens...I have had it happen enough to know...you play enough hands either online or in real life you will see crazy beats. If you are a good player you will be on the losing end of them more often since you get your money in when you are a favorite and get out of the way when not. Watch the WSOP final 20 this year and you will see some sick crazy beats...that is poker. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 21431823
Thu, Dec 01, 2005, 22:34

btw...why the heck are you betting 3x the pot after flopping a fullboat??? Generally you want to get action when you flop a monster and betting that high is going to get anyone with half a brain out of the hand. The only person who should call that type raise is someone holding 55 or A5 or you might get a 5-X to call (even that would be a loose call facing that kind of overbet).

In the end you got your moron caller but even online I do not think you will get someone to call very often with that garbage. There are times to protect your hand and there are times to let people get cards and hope they improve so you can bet big. In this case you should have made a standard or smaller bet at the pot and when he hit his boat on the turn...all of the money would have likey went in the pot as you guys would have got in a raising war.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 21431823
Thu, Dec 01, 2005, 22:55

With that overbet most times you are going to win ~$5 with your monster hand...hardly getting any value. You are going to get a hand that good maybe once every 500 hands....really need to try and win some money with it. You simply can't play that scared.

I guess if you know the guy is a total moron...but even then most times loose crazy players will do your betting for you when you have a big hand. Even the worst will get out of the way when you significantly overbet the pot.

Again I only advocate that type play when you have a hand that is relatively invulnerable...if you have something to protect and you think someone is on a draw then by all means bet whatever you see fit to make it a poor play to call.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 00:03

oh i know TRS. I was just on tilt from the previous hand and just fired away. It was dumb but I admit I was steaming. Not that it would have mattered, I would have lost the same money even if I waited.

Slowhand
SuperDude
ID: 056744223
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 10:31

I play regularly at PokerStars,mostly tournaments.It would be great to have a rotoguru tourney (perhaps a regular one once a month?).I can be available most evevnings and week ends with a bit of notice.
I don't know the process to set one up but I would be willing to offer a 25$ donation to RotoGuru in the winner's name.Let's do it.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 13:34

Depending on how hard it is to fund and account, I might make an exception to my "no-internet poker" rule, if we could dig up 8-10 folks.

I will not provide any sort of bank account info to fund this stuff, however. Does paypal work? CC?

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 13:39

Keep it cheap (<= $5), and I'm in for pokerstars. Did I mention I just like to dabble? Besides, the money isn't what I'd play for against Gurupies. It's all about the brag. Could be play money and I'd play exactly the same way. But a bit of cash would sweeten it, certainly.

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 13:43

bili -

Credit card on Poker Stars is fine. I the minimum deposit if you're using a CC is $50.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 13:47

Thanks, Sludge. Good to know...

I think. :)

Da Bomb
ID: 43359416
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 13:53

Would also be interested.

Frick@Work
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 14:05

I'd be interested also. I haven't played much lately, but right after I posted about Fulltilt I got an e-mail from PartyPoker with $15. I played last night and managed to triple up playing high-lo Omaha

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 14:42

Oh, I should mention that if I do this, I fully expect stupid plays that get rewarded to be subject to universal verbal scorn from the rest of the Gurupies at the table. In good nature, of course. What better way is there to learn than to be subjected to humiliation? Works for fraternaties and sororities, doesn't it?

Nothing I hate worse than to see someone with a dominant hand in a tourney get their money in against a hand that shouldn't have even limped in, then have that hand busted, then have another moron at the table say "nh".

THK
ID: 34112112
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 14:50

Going to Indy again tonight to play some 1-2 NL and supposedly the tables will be cash rich. Some guys told me by the end of the night tons of people have ~$600+ (not what I'll have) and there will be a lot of money to be made...

FRICK! Come on man...you know you are up for some 1-2 NL.

Frick@Work
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 15:04

Sorry, office Christmas party tonight. Can you send me either the address or the website you found the game at. I will have to try and meet you there sometime though.

THK
ID: 34112112
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 16:56

www.homepokergames.com is a great site to find any home games anyone may be looking for...

This game is at 3936 Pendleton Way. If you are interested in coming to the game sometime I will give you my number and can tell you exactly how to get there, because once you get on Pendleton it can get a little confusing to find the actual place.

THK

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 17:00

Wow sounds a little shady. Does Teddy KGB own the joint?

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 17:17

Wow. Lot's home games in the Seattle area. I have a semi-regular home game, but my buds are tepid on hold 'em. A few are starting to warm to it, but I'm getting a bit antsy for a higher skill level game.

Probably wouldn't crash one of those games without an invite/friend, however.

ny studs
ID: 54112917
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 17:31

Greg Raymer. . Day Job?

THK
ID: 34112112
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 18:44

bmd-
It is shady in the fact it has 10 tables in a strip mall location basically. The guys are all just like guys you would see in a normal casino though... Just guys looking to play cards. They have a large membership, good bad beat jackpot, solid tournaments each night, and a pretty solid setup. I took a friend the first time I went to check it out and I am comfortable enough....

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 19:02

THK, I know exactly where it is at, I didn't know it was back there. There is a Menards just down the street that I go to occasionally.

I'll repeat what I said in the e-mail, becare if you leave there after dark.

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 20:50

Hey guys, I'm heading out to Vegas in Febuary. I'll be staying at the Luxor hotel, anyone ever been there? Is their poker room any good (I'll have a relatively small bankroll) or should I head elsewhere?

THK
ID: 34112112
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 21:50

Well FRICK, don't ever go there now... We went and the short story is the place was busted. I will tell the full story later.

swami
ID: 46851118
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 21:55

Sounds like we have some interest, and PokerStars should be the place. Anyone know how to setup a private tourney? $5 buy in sounds right. Maybe on a weekend evening?

rockafellerskank
ID: 180352016
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 22:04

R9 : I've stayed at Luxor at least a dozen times. It's fine for accomodations. Poker room is tiny. maybe 6 tables and only 3-6 and/or 408 games. Not much action.

However, mandalay Bay is next door with a tram to take you there and they have a great poker room. High class. You can get anything from 3-6 to big statkes. I prefer to play 1-2/NL w/ $200.00 buy ins. Play smart and you can win a lot ina night. They key is to know when to "walk" with your cash and not leave $600 on the table "at risk" in a NL game as they will always be someone witha big enough stack to take you out.

Beyond that, belagio has a great room down the strp about 1 mile similiar to quality of MB, prolly better and you'll get to see a few pros on the w/e. Bu favrorite place is Bally's. Low key, about 10 tables but good solid play at 1-2/Nl games as well as good 3-5/$500/Nl game 1x per night.

Feel free to e-mail me if you want. I've played at least a dozen casinos in vegas.

As far as a Gurupie tourney, I'd love to play a $5.00 buy in. Pker Stars, Poker Party or Full Tilt all work fine for me.

swami
ID: 46851118
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 22:19

I sent an e-mail to support to find out how to setup a private tourney. I'll post the details when I receive them.

wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Fri, Dec 02, 2005, 22:26

if you can get money on poker stars through your credit card I will play as well.

THK
ID: 34112112
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 00:06

wiggs-
It depends on your bank/CC company I think...some don't allowing e-gaming.

RebelFan
Sustainer
ID: 014833716
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 00:13

Of all the times I have played in vegas, and since I was a student there it has been a few times, my favorite casino to play has always been the monte carlo. They have games ranging from 2-4 up to the no limit games, and they have a number of high hand jackpots instead of bad beat jackpots. A few friends have told me the Aladin has a nice room, MGM's is a little too close to everything else, was really loud the last time I was there. Good luck with where ever you play

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 06:53

$5 sounds good to me. I agree that the money is secondary to the bragging rights.

Would you consider this a bad beat or just bad luck.

Was playing Hi/Lo Omaha yesterday and was dealt AsQsKh10h. The flop comes up and I have top 2 pair with both straight and flush draws. There were 5-6 players in the hand and I bet most people called. Next cards gives me the straight (Ace high), I bet again most people fold and a couple of callers. Last card comes up and I bet get raised and call. I lost to a Royal Flush. Now I should have given a thought to a flush, but I was positive that we were going to split the pot, there was no low hand.

Flying Polack
ID: 25633176
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 09:10

R9 -

I've been to Vegas three times, I stayed at Luxor once. I wouldn't stay there again. I like the casino, but it takes forever to get around the place. They only have "Inclinators" at the corner's of the pyramid. It would seriously take us 15 minutes just to get to our room from the casino floor.

I have also stayed at Tropicana (same side of the strip as Luxor) and Treasure Island. I liked both of those places better and I would highly recommend Treasure Island. It's right in the middle of the strip so you have easy access to everything.

This past year we did travel down to Luxor to play in their afternoon hold 'em tournament. It had ~80 players and the buy-in was $30, with the option to add on for like $5. It was a quick tournament and a good experience for me since it was the first time I'd played in a casino.

Their room isn't that nice, but I did enjoy the experience. Treasure Island doesn't have a poker room, but you have very easy access to the Mirage's.

swami
ID: 46851118
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 10:12

PokerStars is out. Here's the response I got:

Hello Jared,

Yes we do. Thank you for your interest in offering private tournaments
on
PokerStars.

At this time, the ability to create private tournaments on PokerStars
is being offered as a premium feature only to those players who have
earned more than 2,000 FPP over the lifetime of their account.

You've earned 14 FPP so far (including those you've already spent).
We'd be happy to extend to you this privilege once you've earned the
full 2,000 points.

We hope to hear from you in the near future with a few more FPP
earned. Good luck in our games, and thank you very much for playing
here on PokerStars.

Regards,
Douglas
PokerStars Support Team

Any other spots we can try?

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 11:15

Would you consider this a bad beat or just bad luck.

I would consider it neither. Any time there's three suited cards on the board or the board has paired, a straight is usually junk. Especially with 5-6 players in the hand. Especially in H/L. What was the pre-flop action? What were the limits? It wouldn't take a very big pre-flop raise to get me to lay down that hand in H/L, but I'd certainly attempt to limp with it.

tommyd
ID: 46928248
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 11:21

I have over 2000 FPP's as I'm sure other's here do as well. I would be interested in playing we just have to set up a time.

Tom

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 12:49

Thanks for the responses. I was re-reading the old poker threads and caught TRS's mention of AllVegasPoker. They recommend the MGM room as the best in town. Anyone ever play there? Its really close to where I'm staying at the Luxor (that's already set, thanks for the recommendations though FP) and has the limits I'd want. (1-2 NL and 2-4 limit)

THK
ID: 34112112
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 14:21

Yea, I am sure many of us have earned over 2,000 FPPs in their lifetimes. It shouldn't be a problem to set up a private tournament.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 21431823
Sat, Dec 03, 2005, 14:28

I have played in the old MGM Room...I though it was decent back then...I have heard good things about the new room. I do not think you will have a problem finding a decent poker room...I have played in the Luxor too and I thought it was alright...nothing special but worked for me.

swami
ID: 46851118
Sun, Dec 04, 2005, 17:57

Here's where not to play:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/03/casino.shooting.ap/index.html

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Sun, Dec 04, 2005, 18:01

Here's where not to play online:

Wizard of Odds blacklist.

The whole site is good, though not too much for hold 'em.

THK
ID: 34112112
Sun, Dec 04, 2005, 18:37

Who plays on Full-Tilt? I may make a change if it is decent enough with the incentives they can give.

rockafellerskank
ID: 180352016
Sun, Dec 04, 2005, 21:40

THK-- Send me your e-mail addy if you want areferal to Tilt. 100% sign up bonus and great site.

beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Sun, Dec 04, 2005, 21:59

Full tilt offers decent rakeback so I would probably sign up through a trusted affliate.

wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Sun, Dec 04, 2005, 22:15

I just opened a Pokerstarts account, havent deposited any money yet though. Is there a deposit bonus on pokerstars?

Is Full tilt a better site? if so, maybe I will go there instead.

rockafellerskank
ID: 180352016
Sun, Dec 04, 2005, 22:17

wiggs, I think so (I have one on Poker Stars too). If you want to join, let me know and I'll split the referal bonus with you (THK too)

tommyd
ID: 46928248
Mon, Dec 05, 2005, 07:56

Pokerstars has a deposit bonus about once a month at specific times. Have not played at Full Tilt but I know their bonus clears slow at low limit nl/pl. If anyone wants any help building a bankroll let me know.

wiggs
ID: 6114458
Mon, Dec 05, 2005, 09:44

I could always use help with my bankroll. I had a rough weekend.

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Mon, Dec 05, 2005, 11:54

R9 - I just realized I never wrote up a recap of my Vegas trip. That website is gold, especially if you want tournaments.

MGM has pros and cons. I played there after I was done with all my tourneys during the day and stayed until the monorail closes at like 2:00am.

Pros: Great video screens show where you are on the waiting list and to watch sports. Sweet tables - nice felt, nice chairs, nice leather rail. Hopping dance club (Studio 54 if I'm not mistaken) and bar right next to the poker area.

Cons: Poker room is NOT quiet. Lots of people mulling past going to the bar or club. The tables have this nice marble section against the rail, which makes it a little awkward stacking your chips. You can hear the music in the bar. Poker room is a long walk it seems from anywhere in the casino.

It just depends upon what you want. Being a red-blooded male it was cool to see the hot chicks mulling around the bar and going to the club - gave me something to do when not in a hand. When certain songs hit the bar, the scantily clad waitresses - and what they were clad in was black leather......wow - would literally dance on the bar and tables. It was a GOOD little free show. Let me tell you - the chicks in that bar were stunning, and judging by my detailed review I believe they are required to wear a black thong to go with the black leather halter top and mini-skirt.

I'd saying playing tournaments at Binion's was the highlight of my poker trip. The ambiance was 2nd to none, and being able to look at the Wall of Fame was way cool.

wiggs
ID: 11103749
Mon, Dec 05, 2005, 12:54

I just signed up at full tilt.

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Mon, Dec 05, 2005, 14:35

Let me add #11 to my list.

11) When someone goes over the top of a short stack's all-in, it's because they have a good hand and are trying to isolate them head's up. It's generally not a good idea to commit half your stack with J8 offsuit.

Grrr....

KevinL
ID: 38161710
Mon, Dec 05, 2005, 16:53

Guys, here is one way to do a private tournament:

holdempoker.com and pokerroom.com offer free private tables, just have everybody buy in with the same amount. It does not raise the blinds or anything like a real tournament would.

These 2 sites actually use the same server, so if one of your friends can't find the table at pokerroom.com, they can log in to holdempoker.com and they will usually see the table there.

Some friends from another sports website have tournaments like this at least once / week, and they use Paypal to distribute the winnings (usually $60/40/10 for a 10-person tournament).

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Tue, Dec 06, 2005, 21:52

PokerStars Game #3262046636: Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/12/06 - 21:46:58 (ET)
Table 'Summa' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: FreeSpirit48 ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Brahmabulldg ($9 in chips)
Seat 3: Patos ($5.05 in chips)
Seat 4: adfrick99 ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 5: dontusethis ($22.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Kkanyon ($15.10 in chips)
Seat 7: pr555 ($4.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Waffles2003 ($13.95 in chips)
Kkanyon: posts small blind $0.10
pr555: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adfrick99 [Kc 5d 3h 5c]
Waffles2003: folds
FreeSpirit48: folds
Brahmabulldg: folds
Patos: calls $0.25
adfrick99: calls $0.25
dontusethis: folds
Kkanyon: calls $0.15
pr555: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qc Jd 5h]
Kkanyon: checks
pr555: checks
DudleyDoBad joins the table at seat #9
Patos: checks
adfrick99: bets $0.75
Kkanyon: calls $0.75
pr555: folds
Patos: folds
*** TURN *** [Qc Jd 5h] [Jh]
Kkanyon: checks
adfrick99: bets $2.25
Kkanyon: calls $2.25
*** RIVER *** [Qc Jd 5h Jh] [Jc]
Kkanyon: checks
adfrick99: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Kkanyon: shows [6c Js Ks Td] (HI: four of a kind, Jacks)
adfrick99: mucks hand
Kkanyon collected $6.70 from pot
No low hand qualified

beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 00:30

Frick, that's a great example of why that hand shouldn't be played. There are only a few playable Omaha hi/lo hands that don't contain an ace.

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 10:00

Yeah, I wouldn't even limp with that. Even if it was double-suited. The nice thing is that it was pot-limit, and he didn't bet it on the river. Count your blessings.

Frick@Work
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 10:44

I don't mind limping in with that hand, if I don't hit the flop I fold. It was a very marginal hand and I hadn't played a hand in awhile. The table was really loose, it wasn't uncommon to see 5-7 players see the flop.

If I see someone bet hard when a pair is on the board, my first thought is full house. I don't think I make the call from his position. Oh well.

I don't understand why he didn't bet it at the river and the 3rd jack on the board was why I didn't bet on the river.

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 10:53

He may have been trying to check-raise you on the river.

I don't know danky about Omaha, but with hold 'em, the pre-flop bet is only a small part of why you don't play marginal hands. The more expensive part is the increased chance of playing second-best hands when you DO hit the flop.

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 11:18

There is a huge margin for the taking at online low limit Omaha H/L tables. You just better have the intestinal fortitude for it. People will limp with *anything*. They *seriously* overrate their hands. They will *chase* a low head's up for any amount of money. They will bet their low like there's no tomorrow, which usually only serves to feed the rake. Not only will they bet their low, they'll be holding something like As2hKcQd with 678 on the board, and they'll bet it like there's no tomorrow. I would say that they're forgetting about rake, the possibility of having their A or 2 counterfeited, and the distinct possibility of getting quartered, but quite frankly I don't think they even consider any of these things.

On the other hand, these very things are what makes it so infuriating to play. Raises mean even less to Omaha H/L idiots than they do to Hold 'em idiots. So you will make people pay for their draws, and they'll hit their draws.

Frick@Work
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 11:44

I don't disagree with you Sludge on people feeding the rake, if I am heads up in H/L I'm willing to check and split the pot.

But that is a trade off you make when you have the best high hand and you have 3 or 4 people in the pot. I will agree that people chase way to many hands in Omaha, and I have to include myself in that.

I play .05/.10 or .10/.25 games a little different than playing in a tournament where it makes sense to only play premium hands.

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 12:02

Tournament Omaha and ring Omaha are completely different monsters, I believe. It is impossible to knock someone out with only a low, and there is no rake.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 13:34

Hey Sludge. I'm almost finished working through the relevant (to my poker options) Sklanskys for limit and his general theory. I just started his tourney book, but was considering Brunson's Supersystem.

Some questions, assuming your mentioning it meant you read it (and you recommend it?):

Is that a broad poker book (beyond it's girth), or just Tourney?

If I bother, do I need to buy just SuperSystem II only, both it and SuperSystem or just the first one?

Any other recs?

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 13:52

I haven't actually read many poker books, but yes, I have read Super System. It is actually geared more towards non-tourney games. I've read the hold 'em section a couple of times (probably need to read it again), and mostly skimmed over the other sections. Many consider the hold 'em section, however, to be the bible. I would say it's definitely worth the $20.

As to Super System II, I believe it covers different games, no? Some of the reviews on Amazon aren't quite flattering. In particular, I believe a couple of people have said that the hold 'em section is virtually identical to the original. So I haven't bothered to buy it.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 2700514
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 14:13

The NL holdem section of Supersystem I & II are nearly identical.

I thought Supersystem II was a good read...really has some theories you will not pick up in other holdem books...Brunson (NL section) definitely has a gambling style and it is difficult to employ for most. I do not think it is a very good NL section for an amatuer player.

I thought the limit holdem section of SS II is outstanding...written by Jennifer Harmon...the problem with it is it only begins to cover limit holdem and literally could be hundreds of pages longer but I do think it is one of the better sections of the book.

I am not a limit holdem player so hard for me to recommend a limit book if you have already read Sklanskys offerrings.

The biggest buzz around recent books are Harringtons two offerings which most seem to agree are the best books for NL holdem tournament play.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 14:26

Sounds like I would be fine with just SS II then. At this point, all I play is low-limit and a few (though I may start playing more) small NL tourneys.

If/until I build a signficant bankroll, I will concentrate on playing these the best I can. There are a dozen casinos within 10 minutes of me, and this is pretty much all they offer. An 8-16 table if I'm feeling particularly squirrally, but I don't feel like I'm a good enough player yet to mess with those limits very often. As you would expect, the quality of player improves signficantly away from the 3-6 and 4-8.

There are NL games around, but they are either home games or a half hour drive to the reservations.

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 14:29

Brunson (NL section) definitely has a gambling style and it is difficult to employ for most. I do not think it is a very good NL section for an amatuer player.

You got that right. Takes iron clad cajones.

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 14:36

Species, thanks for the report. MGM sounds right up my alley; The noise wont bother me, the atmosphere is half the reason to go, and stacking chips isn't an issue for me since I expect I'll lose 'em all anyway. ;) The poker room also happens to be right near the walkway from the hotel next to mine, so looks easy to get to.

Frick, I agree with bmd and Sludge that your hand should NOT have been played. Baby pairs in Omaha can be death. Nothing worse then hitting a set of 5's on a board of QJ5 imho. Someone else with a set of Q's or J's are entirely possible, as is the board hitting a Q or J (which it did) and giving someone else a better full house. (QJ or J5 in this case, plus another chance on the river to fill up, in this case a K, 10, 6 or remaining J for your opponent. He actually had alot of outs.) A baby pair can never give you the nuts unless you hit 4 of a kind, which is why I give them very little value. The only time I play baby pairs is when the other two cards complement them. Like A244 is fine, if I hit a set of 4's and two low cards on the flop I have high and low possibilities. But the set of 4's is pretty marginal at best.

wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 17:48

I enjoyed reading Mike Caro's book of tells.

I read 2 hellmuth books, I liked bad beats and lucky draws. I forget what the other book was called, but it was more about the basics.

Right now I am reading TJ Cloutier's book and that is pretty good reading.

KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 030815418
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 19:09

I've read Small Stakes Hold Em from Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth about 10 times. I'm a tight-aggressive beast, but it takes a lot of patience. Most players can't stand sitting out so many hands when everyone around them is seeing 50% of the flops.

I also have read the other good Low Limit Hold Em book that is usually recommended, although I can't remember the author's name right now (Jones maybe?). It's an easier read than SSHE, but not as good.

I also have Harrington's book (part 1). It's pretty good but I have never read any other no limit tourney books so I can't say whether it is better or worse than the other offerings.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 19:26

Yeah - I've read Miller's book twice now, and plan to read it a third time now that I've gained more experience and try follow it a little more closely - mainly force myself to more religiously calculate pot and implied odds and make sure I'm aware to the chip how much is in the pot.

This is one draw-back of not playing online. It would be bad form to check reference materials when I forget something playing flesh and blood humans!

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 20:19

Also a student of SSHE from Miller, Sklansky et al.

What amazes me at my local 4-8 games is how often people raise after they flop a 4-flush.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 258551523
Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 20:56

The other holdem books I have heard many reference is "Winning Low-Limit Hold'em" by Lee Jones and "Hold Em Poker" by Gary Carson.

When it comes to NL Hold'em (probably any poker for that matter) I do not think there is any better guide than table experience. Only book I read initially was Sklansky "The Theory of Poker"...after playing awhile I read a couple other books but really I credit most learning and improvement just from sitting and playing a lot of hours.

Also is good if you have another player you can bounce ideas off of...one thing I hate about playing online is I play against some of the same excellent players all of the time but never get a chance to actually talk to these people. Would enjoy sitting down and taling about the game with these people but just does not happen.

Chuck
ID: 3110521223
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 02:17

I'm starting to get real comfortable on the $5/$10 limit tables.

I have found that stuffing the pot at all costs with premium hands is paying off well. It seems that most of the time, I can be up $30 after about 1 round at a full table. The 6-handed tables are a bit harder as people play a lot looser there than at the 10-handed. The best part of playing limit is that it is so obvious when you are beat. Accept for chasing the occasional great draw (open-ended straight flush), It's easy to get out of most losing hands by the turn bet.

In case I missed it, is there a Gurupie tourney that is going to happen? I have over 4000 FPPs in my account, if that was a requirement to play (sorry if I missed this-- was just skimming the thread).

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 09:21

What amazes me at my local 4-8 games is how often people raise after they flop a 4-flush.

Heads up this is an incorrect play but in certain situations raising is a better EV play then just calling.

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 12:20

A 4-flush board on the flop has a 35% chance of completing by the river, so unless your raise on the flop is putting in more then 35% of the pot (which would mean a very small pre-flop pot, a rarity in a 2/4$ limit casino game) the raise is justified. Just calling and letting others raise isn't the right play either. If the pot is big, you want to be capping it. On top of the flush draw, if you have AQs on a 269 board with two of your suits, you can occasionally win just by spiking a Q or A too. And on the rare occasion (mostly online) you can win the pot uncontested with your high agressiveness. Other people might be on a draw (78os?) or have top pair, and chicken out thinking you have a set or something when they don't improve.

Raising on the flop with a strong flush draw and overcards is more often then not the right EV play.

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 12:24

Raising on the flop with a strong flush draw and overcards is more often then not the right EV play.

Oh I agree. If it's the nut flush and especially a second overcard too it makes sense - but some of these idiots flip over J 10 or something with no pair on the flop. So not only could they be drawing dead but are unlikely to get lucky and win with a pair.

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 12:35

That brings up an interesting topic of live 'tells'. In the low limit games I play (4-8 typically) I rarely bother trying to ascertain physical tells (i.e. hand to mouth, a player's posture) but concentrate on betting patterns. I have successfully called bets with 2nd pair and taken my share of pots over people who missed their draw and kept firing hoping to buy the pot. Verbal inflections help in that regard too - like there's one guy I know often sounds really strong verbally on a raise when he doesn't necessarily have squat.

I suppose betting pattern analysis is all you have in online games, so I would imagine you onliners have quite a bit more experience at recognizing it......or, are you playing too many tables to recognize it fast enough?

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 14:25

Do run into a fair amount of liers? There are some guys that look you in the eyes while you are contemplating a bet or a call, and they say "I've got 3 Queens", and they are telling the straight truth, and offended if you bet. Other guys, if they say they have something, you know for a fact that that is certainly not what they have.

Last night I had to cool this one big, drunk islander sitting next to me down (and buy him another drink, and get the heck out of there) after I jovially called his bullshit last night. I was play AJ, lots of loose hands and raising preflop, caught a KJx on the flop, and he bets and starts hollering "jackpot hand! bring a jack baby!" and things like that. Everybody folds to me, and I call, because I am pretty confident he doesn't have two jacks and is likely on a draw. Nothing on the turn, but another jack comes on the river. Now I know he doesn't have 2 jacks.

The whole table starts congratulating him and such, because it was $1000 bucks if he really had it, but I say "Awe come on," and bet the river. He was on an open-ender Q10, and he was pretty embarrassed, which is scarey thing for a big drunken guy to be. Grabbed my winnings and high-tailed it to a safer casino.

Rascals is a great place to make some easy money. The question sometimes is whether you will live to spend it.

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 14:46

I've run into a few guys online who will do that. (Say they have a strong hand and be holding just that.) I suspect they do it to try and gain credibility later, when they can steal a pot by saying 'Quads, nice!' and get people who believe him to fold. Other then that, there's not really that much use for it imho, as online its impossible to tell if he's lying or not. I just play the hand as I normally would, ignoring his talk.

In person of course its probably a whole different beast, but I have ZERO real-life experience. The way they say it, their posture, other tells, etc. would probably help you determine if he's lying or not. The actual act of saying it doesn't say much imho.

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 14:53

#81 Species: Online betting patters are huge tells. Guys who switch from betting quickly to betting slowly are obvious targets. In theory they could be doing it on purpose to trick their opponents (like I do ;) but the majority probably don't even realize they do it. When they hit a hand they raise quickly, and when they're trying to buy a pot they think about it alot more. That's obviously two big generalizations and certainly not written in stone, but helpful in the right situation, especially on low-limit tables.

Its amazing how many times I see a possible flush land on the river, the guy who quickly called all the way down (on a draw) come out with a big, fast raise, and some sucker take forever to decide to call... to have his set/two pair be beat by the flush. Against more experienced opponents this could've meant anything, but against obvious and unimaginative rookies you have to fold that hand...

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 15:10

I suppose you can use revealing your hand (both honestly and not) successfully, if you do it well. In low-limit, however, it plays much less of a role than many players seem to realize. Rascals (which I only play at very occasionally) it's all about bravado and bluster. Way too much ego and testosterone and feminine wiles as well. The players there think it is a huge part of the game, which makes it a really fun and very profitable to play there. I don't mind having to buy a round of drinks to get out of there with my skin and a few hundred bucks.

I could see where this peripheral stuff would be a lot more useful in a higher stakes or NL game, but I am not going to buy someone's bull in a large pot when all I need risk is a $3 or $6 dollar bet to find out for sure.

In the casinos I play more often, where the level of play is higher, there are occasionally liars, but they usually lie with their cards and not their mouths. When they do just outright lie, they are ostrocized a bit, and people really get on them.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 15:20

I can't fathom how these online winners do well in things like the WSOP. I assume live tells are a much bigger part of NL high-stakes tourneys, and for someone to have little or no experience with them going up against a 30 year live pro, it would be a huge disadvantage, wouldn't it?

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 16:16

Yes, but look at Dannenman this year.

All things being equal (i.e. - every player getting roughly the same number of good cards), and of course that is a stretch, I would always put my money on a seasoned tourney guy than a less experienced live player. People get lucky and have runs, but I would imagine the instincts of a pro would win out in the long run.

Re: Live games/telling your hand
If I am friendly with a particular player in a live game - i.e. they didn't check-raise when they hit their hand, or they just called my bet on the river knowing they had me beat - I will on occasion tell them what I have so they don't waste their chips. "I hit my flush" or the like. I would never do it to bullshit someone else at the table - as you said the entire table would get on them.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 2700514
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 16:38

I think tells are a little overrated especially when playing against experienced opponents...a lot of times experienced players will throw out false physical tells for you to read and make the wrong decision. Sometimes it is better to not even know what the tells are so you do not read too much into them.

In the end I think betting aggressively, getting lucky enough to get in the right situations (having a first place hand vs a big 2nd place hand), and winning the coin flip hands are more important in big NL tournaments especially for the amatuer player to succeed. That is why you see some total amatuers get to the end in some of these big tourmaments...in NL if you get lucky a few times or get the right cards at the right time it can propel you through a tournament.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 17:10

"In the end I think betting aggressively, getting lucky enough to get in the right situations (having a first place hand vs a big 2nd place hand), and winning the coin flip hands are more important in big NL tournaments especially for the amatuer player to succeed. That is why you see some total amatuers get to the end in some of these big tourmaments...in NL if you get lucky a few times or get the right cards at the right time it can propel you through a tournament."

Now I do not think that is a recipe for consistent success in these tournies but when 75% of the field is amatuers it is bound that a few are going to have all of the luck go their way and make it very far. The truly great players like Ivey or Brunson for example consistently go far because they are constantly putting pressure and collecting enough chips that they can often withstand some bad luck...the typical tight play premium hand only amatuer sometimes only needs to get unlucky once and they are gone from the tournament...the key to consistent tournament success is being in the top 10% of the chip leaders and being able to withstand a couple bad luck plays or bad plays.

It seems the true pros fall in mainly two catagories...I would say most of the successful pros are ultra-aggressive: Ivey, Brunson, Negraneau, Mortonson, Jett, Chan, Ungar, etc...but there are a few that play very tight aggressive with success: Hellmuth, Harman, Lederer, Ferguson, etc...it seems a lot of their success comes from having the ability to minimize losses in tough situations, being extremely mathamatical, and being able to lay down big hands that are beat..

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 19:22

So why do you think ultra-aggressive works, when it appears to not maximize expectation?

Do you have to develop some sort of cult of personality and have people fear you for it to work? Does it only work in situations where you can take people all-in?

KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 030815418
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 21:11

Its amazing how many times I see a possible flush land on the river, the guy who quickly called all the way down (on a draw) come out with a big, fast raise, and some sucker take forever to decide to call... to have his set/two pair be beat by the flush. Against more experienced opponents this could've meant anything, but against obvious and unimaginative rookies you have to fold that hand...

If it's a fairly big pot, folding your hand in that spot is a mistake. Usually the guy will have the flush, but many times he's raising because he hit 2 pair on the river, or worse. If there are 10 bets in the pot, you have to call if you think there's at least a 10% chance that your hand is still good.

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 22:05

Definitely. Folding a solid hand on the river in a big pot is a huge no-no in limit. My comment was reffering to NL, where the big bet on the river is pot size or bigger.

KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 030815418
Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 22:39

My bad, I was thinking limit.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 21431823
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 02:22

Most of the ultra aggressive pros do not play like maniacs...they are still playing mostly solid starting hands...or playing hands cheap that have a chance to make a big hand. Especially early in tournaments...on TV you only see shorthanded final tables where they look overly aggressive but that is more the nature of playing shorthanded and TV editing in only the most interesting hands.

I think the big difference I see is the ability to exploit small edges...putting people on specific hands acurately...minimizing losses in tough situations...dominating the table and causing others to not want to get involved in hands with them...knowing how to play a big stack...ability to change gears and mix up their play...not falling into traps...they definitely do not get married to vulnerable hands like top pair.

Personally I think ultra-aggressive in tournaments can work to a point...some of my best tournament finishes have been when I am playing like an absolute maniac early(freerolls...very cheap buyins)...sometimes when playing like that you get lucky once or twice or start catching good cards and all of a sudden you are leading the tourney by a big margin. Then you can change gears...slow down and tighten up. I think overall it is a losing strategy to play only top ten type hands in tournaments.

Seems when I play tight all the way through a tourney...I almost always get short stacked at about the 10 percent mark...I can normally make the money but then start getting in coin flip situations to survive...if I play aggressive early I get eliminated more often early but the times I survive I have a much better chance to contend for the final table and a chance at first place. Getting to the final table and in the top few is where you really make your money.

ChicagoTRS
ID: 21431823
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 02:40

Read the NL Holdem section in Super System II for a good explanation of the aggressive style many pros employ.

Micheal
ID: 1010242320
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 03:42

I need to vent...Pokerstars is bullsh.t.

Tournament and it's head up...I'm setting this guy up, folding all middle pair, low pair to any bet after flop just waiting for the moment to catch him and take it all. So after 25 minutes of folding to him and setting him up I FINALLY have him set up. He bets half his stack and I go all in. He calls. I flop 2 pair K9 to his J6. Flop is KJ9. So what is the turn and river, J6. Game over.

Very next tournament 3 players left and I finally get a hand to go all in with since im short stack by a grand. All in with pocket 10's. Caller has pocket 9's. He's dominated and I'm all giddy thinking I'm gonna win this thing. Nope, it's Pokerstars, where champions are born. So what is the community? 876 flop, K turn and 5 river for a straight. Fking BS. I have been screwed so hard today and I'm really frustrated.

I'm not the best player by far and am just learning the game but this is bulls..t.

Like I said just venting...off to another tournament to get fu.ked by PS.

Micheal
ID: 1010242320
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 03:56

Well, my tournament is over. I'm REALLY on tilt right now and the first hand I'm out. On the button and everyone limps in and I have pocket 9's. F.ck it, all in. Everyone folds except one. AKo. Flop, AA6. Turn=K. WTF is going on??? I swear if there was ANYONE affiliated with PS in front of me right now I would cave their face in.

smiles
ID: 561048313
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 04:27

your at a coin flip situation... terrible play...
a raise of 5x the bb would suffice... if alot of overcards come on the flop aka Ace's... u can still fold..

it's early in the tourney, don't settle for coin flips..

Micheal
ID: 1010242320
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 05:08

I couldn't fold, I was all in pre flop. I know it's a coin flip, I'm just pissed because that's the way the whole day has gone and I'm down. I know you can't always win but today was just brutal. Yesterday was the same but I managed to come back.

In one tournament one guy went all in with CRAP (8-3o, 5-2o) every hand and was called 5 times in a row. Won 4 of them. Unbelievable. I'm just frustrated today.

100

Micheal
ID: 1010242320
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 05:39

Next tournament...

Seat 1: hyper_dermic (1310 in chips)
Seat 2: mikeysmvp (1220 in chips)
Seat 4: DonH86 (2170 in chips)
Seat 5: trex3351 (1831 in chips)
Seat 7: Nick86 (2500 in chips)
Seat 8: RazorTeez (2585 in chips)
Seat 9: Genise412 (1884 in chips)
mikeysmvp: posts small blind 15
DonH86: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mikeysmvp [Kh Jh]
trex3351: calls 30
Nick86: folds
RazorTeez: folds
Genise412: calls 30
hyper_dermic: folds
mikeysmvp: raises 90 to 120
DonH86: folds
trex3351: folds
Genise412: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [Jc 5h 6s]
mikeysmvp: bets 300
Genise412: calls 300
*** TURN *** [Jc 5h 6s] [9s]
mikeysmvp: bets 800 and is all-in
Genise412: calls 800
*** RIVER *** [Jc 5h 6s 9s] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mikeysmvp: shows [Kh Jh] (three of a kind, Jacks)
Genise412: shows [4s 5s] (a flush, Jack high)
Genise412 collected 2500 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2500 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 5h 6s 9s Js]
Seat 1: hyper_dermic (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: mikeysmvp (small blind) showed [Kh Jh] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 4: DonH86 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: trex3351 folded before Flop
Seat 7: Nick86 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: RazorTeez folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Genise412 showed [4s 5s] and won (2500) with a flush, Jack high

Runner runner spade to win...He called 4x BB with a 4-5s and gets runner runner. Unbelievable!!! Somebody please tell me if I was wrong or how I can play different to win. WTF.

101

tommyd
ID: 46928248
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 08:33

It's called riverstars for a reason, you have to go all in as a big underdog to win. Trust me you're not the only one who sees these kind of beats.I think they have the %'s reversed so if your a 4-1 dog you are really a 4-1 favorite. It's not rigged but it feels like it sometimes just keep getting your money in while your ahead.

102

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 11:48

You can't go on tilt like that. Yes, you got some terrible beats, but they happen. A 90% favorite still loses 10% of the time. Accepting that is a big part of becoming a better player. Because wasting a buyin by going all-in with 99 on the first hand of a tourney, because your on tilt from another game, is just silly. Its not so much that you need to immediately calm down (although its nice if you can learn to do that) but you need to step away from the game for a couple hours or so. Why join a game when you are at your worst?

As far as mr. 45s, calling 90 chips with a stack of over 1800 is nothing, considering there is already 270 in the pot. Seeing flops with suited connectors early in a tourney is a good way to catch some cards and get a nice stack.

After that he gets really stupid, calling 300 chips with nothing but a pair and two backdoor draws is silly. Calling an all-in with nothing but a baby flush draw is even more stupid. Sounds like he was on tilt from another tourney. ;) Other then a bigger pre-flop raise, there's not much you could do here to avoid this idiot.

Now, 4-5x the BB is a fine raise at a ring game or the middle/later stages of a tourney. But early on when the blinds are small, don't think in terms of BB size, think in terms of 'why am I raising?' Is 90 chips more really going to get that guy to fold? Because people in micro-tournies don't respect raises in relation to the BB, they only see it in relation to their stack size. If you want to get heads up with a solid hand with someone, raise it to 250 or 300. (Not that I think KJs is worthy of that. I probably would've just limped with that.) People with 4-5s wont be eager to dump 1/5th of their stack on a weak starting hand, and you'll only get called by other decent hands.

103

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 11:55

"The Bad Beat that wasn't =("

Well last night I am playing the Bad Beat tables on Prima...the jackpot is currently sitting at ~30K to the loser of the bad beat...15K to the winner...15K for the rest of the table.

.50-1 NL full table...I get Pockets Aces in the dealer position...raise preflop to 5 get check raised to 10 and still get two callers...flop 7-K-A...bingo bango bongo...one player bets 20...I just call...Turn is a K...give me Aces full of Ks...this time the player checks and I bet 20...he calls quickly...River is the case Ace giving me four aces...the nuts.

Remaining player checks...we both have around 60 left...I make a small bet of 25...~110 in the pot already and I want a call if he has a lone K. Well low and behold no hesitation he is all-in...I am thinking hell yeah...what could he have to check raise me before the flop and then reraise all-in on a KKAA board when I have all of the Aces covered...he has to have KK and I am going to win 15K!!! Call and the idiot has K-10...flippin moron got my hopes up.

15K would have been a nice christmas present...

104

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 12:04

Would ace full vs 4 kings have won the bad beat jackpot? Or is the minimum like 4 8's and you must play both your hole cards?

105

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 12:07

The minimum is quad 8s or better + both hole cards.

106

Micheal
ID: 1010242320
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 12:28

I know everyone has experienced these kinds of days. Yesterday was the first day that I wasn't able to come back. It just seemed like PS wouldn't let me. Thanks for the advice...like I said, I'm still learning and have a long way to go.

107

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 12:59

A topic of the day I'd like to throw out.....since I mostly play limit, keep that as the context.

Playing non-premium hands

We all do it. Whether you have a favorite crap hand, whether you play a hunch, whether it's a suited connector hand (and in limit not as valuable), or you're limping in with position, etc. - sometimes you just want to play.

My success rate has gone up after becoming much more disciplined, centered mainly in resisting the temptation to play A-x off (I'll still see a flop for a minimum bet with any suited ace) and realizing pot odds and EV when deciding to make calls or fold on drawing hands. Also reading other players and folding early before getting drawn in has saved quite a few chips recently.

While my 7 hours at the poker table never seems to drag on (I'm constantly amazed at how fast that time can pass), it also gets boring to fold 75-odd percent of the time (I guess I ought to keep track one night, just for kicks - there's one advantage of playing online).

What are some of your favorite non-premium hands to play and why? When do you play them - just when you're up and can "afford" to see a cheap flop with less than a good hand? Just in late position? Against a loose table or tight table? Etc.

108

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 13:04

#104: In the 2 casinos I play in, they have a second, smaller jackpot (around $3k in one, $6k in the other) that only requires either Aces full of Jacks or Aces full of 10's beat. The big jackpot (can get as high as $100k in one, only $10k in the other) requires quad 8's beat. In all cases both players' hole cards must play.

109

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 13:06

This is for NL for me, so not quite the same context as you, but I like playing small unsuited connectors occasionally from late position. (78os, 67os, etc.) Sometimes I'll even come in for a raise if I feel the table is playing predictable. Usually just to mix things up, and change my table image from a 'tightwad' to an 'idiot'. ;)

In NL though it just takes one big hand to make all those limps/small raises worth it. In limit, I usually play by the book. That of course is with the caveat that I don't play limit exclusively. In fact, I usually play it to get a break from a heavy action NL game. Limit can be relaxing, and rarely exciting imho. Thats online though, in person there's obviously more to keep your attention.

110

Frick@Work
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 13:12

Species [107] Would you consider K9 suited to be a non-premium hand.

As for folding 75% of the time, it is one of the things that helps you win money, but occasionally it can be useful to play a non-premium hand just to keep people honest on your betting habits.

I play with some college friends occasionally and we play tournament style with 5-20 buy ins. I had a night where I got to play 3 hands in 1.5 hours. I was getting crap cards and ended up going all in with AA. I was called by a previous better, I think he bet 4-5x BB prior to my all-in and a guy to my left. 4-5x guy I guessed right as he had KK, the other caller had 22. Flop game up 724. Nothing on the turn and the river so 22 cracks both KK and AA. Go figure.

111

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 13:24

Frick - yeah, I'd consider K9s non-premium (but sure I'd probably play it with position most of the time). The reason I don't like it is, even if you hit your straight (or flush for that matter) it can never be the nuts. You flop QJ10 and obviously anyone who had AK would have held them and have broadway. I don't like those straight draws where someone could have two 'overs' and beat you. 10-6, you flop 789 and lose to J10, etc. Of course, it's still strong if you hit either hand, so you can still win most pots when you hit, but can take a bit chunk out of your a$$ if someone has the nuts.

Reminds me of a sweet hand I won last week. Limped in with late position w/J9, flop comes 10 8 7. Turn is a 6, so on the river a guy with a 9 raises my initial bet. It's always fun to know that at worst you're chopping the pot.....but of course I raised and took more of his chips.

R9 brings up a good point - tricking your opponents. It definitely helps to once in a while win with a non-premium hand to show the table you're not ultra-tight. Or, as he said, gives others the opinion you are an idiot and they'll call you down for hours before figuring it out :)

112

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 13:31

Middle straights are better the farther down you go imho. Meaning, K9 on a QJ10 board is iffy, because AK gets played alot. But 37 on a 456 board isn't as worrysome, because 78 isn't as likely a hand. Still, it can cost you a ton if you do get caught with the lower straight, and in NL thats a big no-no. Which is why I like playing connected offsuits, but never suited non-connectors (Barring an A-x suited of course.)

113

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 13:59

I'd be more afraid of the 2nd board. If someone has AK they'll probably let you know preflop.

114

KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 030815418
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 18:30

I agree with bmd about AK.

Anyway, my favorite non-premium hand to play is 9-10 suited. It's one of the weaker hands I'll raise with in late position, and if I'm feeling extra saucy, early or middle position.

115

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Dec 09, 2005, 18:50

Some woman at the table once tried to convince me that Q7 has been shown to be the most profitable junk hand to play. She failed.

116

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 10:52

Q8, I might take a flier on, similar to K9 in that you have straight possabilities.

117

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 11:53

Anybody ever play at any of these online casinos?

Casino Australia
Casino Crystal
Casino Internationale Curacao
Casino Regal
Casino Tokyo
Cyberspades
EuroVegas Casino
Good Luck Club
InterCasino
Omni Casino
Kenny Rogers Casino
Safari Casino
Sands of the Caribbean
Stadium
VIP Casino
William Hill Casino

I am pondering a Cryptologic investment, but have heard mixed reviews of their poker software.

Not a lot of options for online gambling investment (most are privately held), but if their software is poor, I'll just skip it all together.

118

tommyd
ID: 46928248
Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 15:02

i've played at Will Hill monthly bonus 25pound match with 25 play through. Inter has a monthly 90 $ match bonus with 25 X play through as well.

119

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 15:13

Tommyd - What do you think of the functionality of their hold 'em software? Is it friendly? How does it compare to others?

120

tommyd
ID: 46928248
Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 15:30

The poker clients- you can multitable as many as you want, games are pretty slow. There are about 10 different crypto sites. Inter and Caribbean Sands, Pokerplex and Littlewoods all have 25 pound or 50$ monthly bonus that is no deposit and require 250 raked hands of a $1 or above under a 1$ you get 1/4 point. UKbetting. Totalbet and WillHill 5 pounds per table hour. There's always a few nl and limit ring games going. Play is usually pretty tight. Not sure about other games. Not many sit-n-go's and a few MTT's.You can now view mucked hands and it is pokertracker compatible. Not sites I play a lot on besides clearign the monthlies but they are alright. You also have to wait a couple of weeks for a pin number before you withdraw, which usually takes about 24 hours once you have the pin.

Overall 3 out of 5

121

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 15:44

Thanks, man.

122

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 13:49

How would you have played this:

4 table tourney, $35 buy-in. Decent players.

We are about to combine to the final table. I'm big stack by a whisker over the guy to my right (with around 11K), a thoughtful player (I know because he thinks out loud) who's been playing a lot of hands. blinds are 400-800 and soon to go up.

I'm dealt pocket 10s one off the button. One caller, one raiser to 1600, the guy to me right raises to 2400. For better or worse, I call. Blinds fold, first caller folds. 3 players. 9200 in the pot.

Flop comes 79J rainbow. First guy checks. Guy to my right bets 2000.

What do you do?

123

rockafellerskank
ID: 180352016
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 13:55

Fold. You're hand is no where near being made -- way too many hands you could be beaten by. And, if you call, the next card may well cost your dearly (X,000 chips) in the next bet with no guarantee of being in the same decision making spot (no improvement). I think the downside is you go to final table as a criple. I'd be OK, letting guy to right take the chip lead as you are still playing behind him. And, don't discount that the first guy who checks doesn't come over top of both of you with the check-raise (all-in?) if you call because you've made the pot so atractive. Now you have to beat 2 hands.

I just don't see the reward vs. the risk.

124

rockafellerskank
ID: 180352016
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:00

I'm curious about the following scenatio. I play a lot of Sit-n-go's so I'm faced with this from time to time -- or a similair situation.

First hand. You get a QQ or KK and are near last to act. 1500 chips to begin with blinds of 15-30. 2 callers and both blinds behind you. I usually raise enough to isolate and play head to head or at worst against 2. I raise to 150. Here is my problem. I get a re-raise along the way to 300 or 400 chips.

Now, my inclination is to call, but it's obvious that thsi is going to be a 1000+ or all-in hand off the gate. Any thought about living to fight another day as opposed to risking beith the first one out.

I do always make the same play here (call him down unless an obviosu hand appears), but curious how otehr play the "instant all-in" on the first hand of a tourney. Part of my woudl rather fold because I think I can out play the field as opposed to win a race on hand 1?

125

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:16

Well, I wasn't going to call. I was either going to fold or semi-bluff all-in. I was confident he didn't hit his set of jacks or would have either checked or just taken the pot all-in. AA-QQ and I'm dead, but big slick, AQs or a middle pair, I could see him trying to steal the pot, though it was dubious whether he would have raised with middle pair, though it wasn't beyond the realm of possibility.

As it was (partly because my dog awaited me and I didn't want to play another hour or two as an underdog), I went all in. Hoping to call his bluff or maybe even get him to fold with an overpair.

This was just torture for the guy. He starts ranting "I'd have to be a superstar! I'd have to be a pro to fold this! A superstar!" And on and on for over a minute, basically letting me know he has a AA to see my reaction. I've been playing very tight, conservative poker until that point, so he is nearly convinced I hit my set of jacks and says as much. I just stare straight ahead at my chips trying not to even blink.

Finally, I can't take it anymore and glance up, and he calls. Damn.

126

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:21

rfs...I got pockets Qs or Ks in your situation I am going all-in if I am reraised preflop...I would guess a vast majority of the time you are ahead...yes you are risking your tournament life but I think the risk is worth the reward of doubling early...I think doubling on the first hand of a sitngo has to really increase your chances of making the final three. Especially the fact that it is the first hand of the tourney...I have seen too many donkeys reraise me with garbage to be too concerned about aces in that spot. If they have aces oh well...I would have likely lost most if not everything later in the hand if I just call vs aces...I would rather get it all-in preflop. To mix it up sometimes if I know the other player will bet on the flop I might just call preflop and then reraise all-in after the flop if no ace (overcard) hits the board.

Only way I fold or backoff is if I know the player very well and know they would only make that play with aces.

As for outplaying...I am not sure you will get in many better situations. I would say the most likely holding of the other player is a smaller pocket pair which you have dominated or a hand like AK where you are still a favorite with QQ and a big favorite with KK.

There is always another sit-n-go starting in a few minutes...I think you are way ahead more often than not that you need to get your money in there and take your chances.

127

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:23

124 - I would call, but that's mainly because I'm not sure I can outplay the field, and doubling up on hand 1 is enough of advantage that it might even the playing field for me. ;)

128

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:31

#122 biliruben...I fold my 10s there...I consider folding them preflop. You are the chip leader...I do not think you want to get involved in the hand facing two raises with one of the players having a similar stack. I could see calling and looking at the flop...but if it misses and there is betting I am getting out of the way and preserving my place in the tournament.

Now if it was one raiser with a smaller stack that does not cripple me if I lose I probably put the player all-in preflop and take my chances.

With middle pairs you have to be very careful when facing a big raise preflop...+75% of the time the board is going to contain an overcard which puts you in a bad position for postflop play.

129

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:33

Re: 122 - fold, although a little more info on your fellow big stack would help the decision. You said he plays a lot of hands....does he raise a lot of hands? Then of course there is the initial raiser, who could be playing possum. If you put someone on AK or AQ you're ahead, but the possibility of an AJ or pocket paint makes you dead to a 10 or 8. Like rfs said, avoid being a final table cripple and make your headway on the final table.

rfs 124: Had an interesting conversation to this effect at the local casino last week. A guy is waiting for the NL table but is slumming it at 4-8 until his seat is there. This guy is boasting about his tourney play, saying he won $xxxx in some 70+player tourney. He said he recently folded AA in the 1st few minutes of a tourney as 2 players went all-in ahead of him. His rationale was that it would take 150,000 chips to win the whole thing, why risk your tournament life just to win 4,000 chips (you got 2,000 for example in this tourney)? He would rather take his chances over the long haul. Oh, and supposedly he said he would've lost because someone hit 2 pair....of course he could have been full of it, because unless that 2 pair was AK or AQ (which of course he would've hit his set), why in the hell was someone all-in?

Anyway, an interesting argument and, right or wrong, an example of the different mindset in tourney play.

130

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:41

Well, you guys would have done better in this tourney than me, because none of my 6 outs came, and I was out of there 2 hands into the final table.

My dog sure appreciated my bravado, however. ;)

131

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:46

129 - he was raising a lot of hands, and pressed his advantage every opportunity. I wasn't too worried about the guy under the gun. Too unimaginative to check raise. He was certainly a guy to throw 2000 in a 9200 pot with nothing, though the pre-flop reraise should have given me pause, and for that reason only, I should have folded.

I was carefully honing my conservative persona for a big bluff however, and I had to use it!

132

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:49

bili, that's a tough spot. How many spots get paid and how is it distributed? I would've taken a different line preflop, either fold or push(probably fold since there are 3 left to act including the initial raiser). 10's don't look too good against a raise and a reraise, however, since this tourney appears to have a fast structure I might be willing to gamble that the 10's are the best hand.

rfs, Kings I'm pushing. Queens I call if it's to 300 but probably fold if it gets raised to 400.

133

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 14:56

Top 5 get paid. Something like 50-20-15-10-5.

I think you are right. The proper move was to fold pre-flop, given my situation.

I'm not sure I would have pushed against a short-stack, as they would oddly enough be more likely to call my semi-bluff, as they have less to lose and much more to gain.

134

ChicagoTRS
ID: 2700514
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 16:03

With 10-10 if a small stack raises preflop(example I have 10K...small stack has 2K)...I am putting the small stack all-in preflop. What you gain is eliminating a player...I would guess about 70% of the time you are in good or great shape vs overcards, a smaller pair, or Ax. Probably 15% of the time you are up against a bigger pocket pair. 15% of the time the small stack is going to fold because he was stealing or just extremely tight.

Even if you lose the hand it does not effect your stack much...

If I am looking at a spot where 85% of the time I am in good to great shape and the 15% of time I am in bad shape and even if I lose it does not hurt much I will take those chances.

Just my style to play very loose in tournaments with a big stack when I am holding premium cards vs small stacks. I do not like getting too cute with small stack opponents.

135

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 16:12

Hmmm... Yeah, that seems like good strategy pre-flop, I agree, CTRS.

136

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 00:14

I know it's not as impressive as a larger buy-in tourney, but after getting beat down like a pimp at a streetwalker's empowerment seminar all day in races or hands I was better than 3:2 in (I'll spare you the details... you all know 'em well already), I finally had it all fall together in a 5 table $1.20 tourney on PokerStars. I really think I'm more in my element in a short handed game. Anyway, I digress. Turning point head's up: Me 22k, him 44k. I have KsJd in the BB and I raise 3x BB (blinds are 600/1.2k) after he tries to limp. He calls. Flop comes 3hTc3c. He checks, and I bet 7200 into the 9600 pot. He says, "i have a feeling you missed that flop". But respects my bet and folds. I think he actually noticed that I never showed down a hand that wasn't solid. Not once did I get caught bluffing. But... PHEW! A good feeling to actually succeed at an attempt to cash in on your table image.

PokerStars Game #3319251503: Tournament #16432357, Hold'em No Limit - Level XII
(1000/2000) - 2005/12/12 - 23:48:46 (ET)
Table '16432357 2' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 6: IamSexy (8680 in chips)
Seat 8: sludge_7001 (58820 in chips)
IamSexy: posts the ante 100
sludge_7001: posts the ante 100
sludge_7001: posts small blind 1000
IamSexy: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sludge_7001 [Ts 9h]
sludge_7001: raises 8000 to 10000
IamSexy said, "so many chips going to waste if i fold"
IamSexy: calls 6580 and is all-in
IamSexy said, "noooo"
*** FLOP *** [7d Ac Qh]
sludge_7001 said, "ouch"
IamSexy said, "high cards!"
*** TURN *** [7d Ac Qh] [9c]
IamSexy said, "gg"
*** RIVER *** [7d Ac Qh 9c] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IamSexy: shows [Th 2s] (a pair of Sevens)
sludge_7001: shows [Ts 9h] (two pair, Nines and Sevens)
sludge_7001 said, "very good game"
sludge_7001 collected 17360 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 17360 | Rake 0
Board [7d Ac Qh 9c 7c]
Seat 6: IamSexy (big blind) showed [Th 2s] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 8: sludge_7001 (button) (small blind) showed [Ts 9h] and won (17360) with
two pair, Nines and Sevens

137

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 00:52

Nice! Only 1.20 invested and you win 17 thousand. That's the kind of ROI I'm looking for.

138

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 00:53

Haha... well, those are tournament chips, bili. First place paid $14. :)

139

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 00:56

Just ribbing ya, professor.

So why was that short handed? Or are you just talking the final table?

140

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 00:58

One of the more interesting threads over on the 2+2 forums was a hypothetical situation at the WSOP final. $10,000 buy-in, over 3000 people.

First hand, you get dealt AA. You come in for a decent raise, and EVERYONE IN FRONT OF YOU goes all-in. Ten people at your table, all-in. Do you make the call or fold?

Me, I'm all-in in a heartbeat. The chance to have a 10-1 chip stack over everyone else at my new table is too much to pass up.

So, the QQ or KK scenario as the first hand at a SNG is of a similar thought to me. Having a big chipstack right from the start gives me an excellent shot at building a big enough stack to finish 1st or 2nd. Whereas if you're forced to the final table with a small stack, you need to get lucky and catch a few solid hands to finish 1st or 2nd.

Say everyone in a 27 person SNG starts with 1500 chips. Looking at it as just 3000 of the 40500 chips you need to win it all is silly. Having that 2-1 chip lead over everyone else at the table is huge. Anyone who would give up that chance (and be a big favorite to get to that position) doesn't understand the value of a big stack, and probably doesn't know how to play with one either. That guy who said he folded AA because of two raises... just silly. Sure he's still in the tourney, but he gave up his best shot at being able to dominate. And why else are you in a tourney, except to dominate?

Speaking of tournies, I got invited to a private 200$ buyin tourney here in Montreal tomorrow. (Got invited from someone I was chatting with at a macro econ exam, go figure.) I'll let you guys know how it turns out. :)

141

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 01:00

So why was that short handed?

It wasn't until final table. I was just mentioning it as an aside. Random stream of consciousness comment as I typed.

142

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 01:06

I'm clueless about online gambling. I thought maybe there were 5-table, 6-seat tourneys or something. Would that speed things up or slow things down, I wonder?

143

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 01:10

Re: short-handed tourneys. I haven't seen any on PokerStars... then again, I haven't really looked either. But they have regular 6-handed tables at every level (of hold 'em at least).

So who's got the FPP to set up this private tourney? I'd like to throw my $5 to one of you rather than to some moron who is going to come over the top of my 5x BB raise with 78s while I'm holding KK.

144

Slowhand
SuperDude
ID: 056744223
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 01:58

Okay I'm burnin...playing in a $10 re-buy tourny at Pokerstars.I'm playing well, tight aggresive and have been in the top 10-50 since the first break.On the button (blinds 800/1600)I get pocket Aces and raise 3x BB; SB folds, BB about 1/3 my stack goes all in ;I call he turns over 9/10 suited,of course he flops a flush.

It gets worse,3 hands later I'm dealt Ah Kh. A bit out of position I just call .On the flop Ac Kd Jh, I raise equal to the pot, 1 player folds and the other goes all-in and I call.He turns over 7/8 of clubs and you guessed it running clubs for another flush.

I'm now down to about 10k from @ 60k so when I get pocket Ks in the BB and only one player has called I'm all-in.He calls with an A-7 unsuited and doesn't even give me the dignity of Aces...he flops a set of sevens.
I have always tended to pooh-pooh bad beat(the fix is in/worst hand going in wins too much) stories and rants about "river"stars but it do make a man wonder.

145

Slowhand
SuperDude
ID: 056744223
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 02:06

Re:143 Pokerstars has several shorthanded tourney,but I think most are sit-n-go.

Not enough FPPs here;I've only been at Pokerstars a couple of months but I'm with Sludge; I'd a lot rather you guys get my money.Let's do it.

146

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 11:53

First hand, you get dealt AA. You come in for a decent raise, and EVERYONE IN FRONT OF YOU goes all-in. Ten people at your table, all-in. Do you make the call or fold?

Me, I'm all-in in a heartbeat. The chance to have a 10-1 chip stack over everyone else at my new table is too much to pass up.

For a seasoned pro the answer should be an easy yes. However, for an amateur that might not ever get the chance to play in the WSOP again I think the "proper" play would be to fold. I think the experience and enjoyment they would get for a couple of hours of play at the WSOP far outweighs the additional advantage they would get by 10x's 30% of the time.

147

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 12:02

I would be all in with AA. As an amateur my likely result would be to float along, my stack slowly dwindling, make a few mistakes, and get stomped by a pro a few hours into the tourney.

With that kind of edge, I might go somewhere and make it really memorable.

148

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 13:46

I'd be all-in as well. Just imagine being a part of that hand! It would go down in history. That would be more "experience and enjoyment" than they could get being, as bili puts it, "stomped by a pro a few hours into the tourney." Heh...

149

THK
ID: 34112112
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 14:56

Wouldn't AA be a statistical underdog against 8 other all-ins? You have to assume you are set on only a pair of aces. People can draw out with trips, flushes, straights, 2 pair, etc...

I would fold...and not because I would never have the chance to play in the WSOP again or anything like that, but because I believe AA won't win in that situation very often.

THK

150

Frick@Work
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:03

A friend of mine in college had a computer hold'em game that let you run simulations. You could enter your betting habits and others and have the computer play 1000s of hands. You could also enter starting hands. We once entered a simulation with AA as the starting hand, AA once a large majority of the games.

If you were going all-in vs 8 other all-ins I would take those odds. Yes any of those other 8 all-ins could hit their set, but you have the high card for 2 of the possible flushes.

I would definately be all-in in that situation.

151

weykool
ID: 4611161313
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:04

All in for me.
There is another tournament next year.
What could be more fun for an amature than 10 times more chips than half of the other competitors?

152

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:06

So you fold. Now you are heads up against someone with 90K to your 10K. How long are you likely to last?

Yes, you are an underdog to all hands combined, but you are the heavy favorite to any individual hand. If an ace does come, and the board pairs, you have the nuts, and that might be what it would take. Of course, you would also win with two pair as the best hand, if noone hits their set.

153

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:08

Wouldn't AA be a statistical underdog against 8 other all-ins?

If you mean underdog as in less than a 50% chance of winning, you'd be right. If you mean underdog as in someone having a better chance of winning than you, however, that is incorrect. You would have the best chance to win the hand, period. Pot odds ALWAYS dictate a call of ANY BET pre-flop with AA.

154

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:27

So you fold. Now you are heads up against someone with 90K to your 10K. How long are you likely to last?

The table would break. Besides the blinds are so small it really wouldn't matter.

If you mean underdog as in someone having a better chance of winning than you, however, that is incorrect. You would have the best chance to win the hand, period. Pot odds ALWAYS dictate a call of ANY BET pre-flop with AA.

I would not use ALWAYS ever in poker. Since this situation is hypothetical I could come up with a number of different scenarios where AA would be a dog to a few hands.

155

Flying Polack
Donor
ID: 378582811
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:35

I would not use ALWAYS ever in poker. Since this situation is hypothetical I could come up with a number of different scenarios where AA would be a dog to a few hands.

Pre-flop? How?

156

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:37

The one scenario that came up was someone else holding AA too (pretty likely actually if all of the board is going all-in) while everyone else has a lone PP or a nice suited connector. Thus, their PP's had 2 outers and the connectors had flush/straight draws, while you had nothing but 2 very weak 4-card flush draws and 4 card straight draws, which are seriously limited by any KK or QQ hands.

Still, I'm taking the chance. If I get moved to a table with an Ivey or Negraneau I'd much rather have 9x their chip stacks then be even. ;)

157

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:48

The table would break. Besides the blinds are so small it really wouldn't matter.

My ignorance is again demonstrated, this time for not watching TV tourneys.

What are the rules for breaking a table in these 700 table tourneys? Would you really just wait an hour or two for another table or set of tables to widdle down, or would they simply be constantly be evening out, and just insert both of you into two other 8 handed tables?

158

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 15:53

The question is supposed to get one thinking on how much they value a double or triple up in tournament play. Many pros will avoid a race early on even if they are a slight favorite because they feel they can out play most of the schmucks at their table. While other pros will argue that one needs to take advantage of every edge they can get however slight it might be.

159

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 16:00

I would not use ALWAYS ever in poker.

Re-read my wording. It may be different if everyone turned over their cards to help you in your decision making process. But that's not going to be happening.

Anyone have their hands on some poker simulation software to come up with an example where AA isn't even the favorite? I would bet that it would start with giving AX to a couple of the other players... or AA to another.

160

Sludge
ID: 581043311
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 16:06

While other pros will argue that one needs to take advantage of every edge they can get however slight it might be.

Getting all of your money in when you are 3:2 or better (or even, say, 5:4) goes a long way to maximizing your long run expected profits in a regular game. In a tournaments, however, it also goes a long way to maximizing your risk of ruin. Unfortunately, you are forced to do it. If you don't, you'll get run over, especially as a pro with all of the players that we've seen at the WSoP in the past few years who constantly make plays at the pros with their "What have I got to lose?" attitude.

161

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 16:23

Folding AA preflop...the much debated topic. Have seen this debate 100x on a newsgroup I frequent. Most have come to the conclusion that the only time you would ever fold AA is in a tournament scenario where x number of players win the same prize...example top 20 finishers win entry into a bigger tournament (satelite)...lets say you are on the bubble...21 players left...20 win the prize...you have a large enough stack to survive easily to get in the top 20...a larger stack goes all-in in front of you and you are holding AA...you fold as you have nothing to gain by picking up more chips...if it is a smaller stack you call then you call to try and eliminate the player.

AA facing 9 opponents all-in I am sure there is probably a scenario where the AA is not the favored hand preflop. Depending on the combination of other cards. But me...if I got AA I would make that call and hope I end up with 10x my chips.

162

weykool
ID: 34932210
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 22:21

You can find a hand similator at:
http://www.pokertips.org/

Ran several different simulations and couldnt make the AA the underdog.

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ah 108402 21.60 390310 77.76 3230 0.64 0.218
As Ks 42185 8.40 451963 90.04 7794 1.55 0.090
Ad Kd 42185 8.40 451963 90.04 7794 1.55 0.090
Qc Qh 89234 17.78 411652 82.01 1056 0.21 0.178
Jc Jh 77600 15.46 423286 84.33 1056 0.21 0.155
Tc Th 70660 14.08 430226 85.71 1056 0.21 0.141
5c 5h 63882 12.73 437004 87.06 1056 0.21 0.128

If tables work the same way in WSOP as online tournies, and you folded and were the next table to be moved then you would join another table (probably a different table than the chip leader)
If you were not the next table to be "broken then they would randomly move players from different tables to balance things out. I'm pretty sure the tables are prenumbered just like an online tournament and they have a way to randomly pick who moves.

163

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 23:29


Holdem Hi: 201376 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win      lose  %lose       tie   %tie        EV
As Ah    9473   4.70    191700  95.20       203   0.10     0.047
Ac Kd     332   0.16    198919  98.78      2125   1.06     0.007
Ad Kc    1802   0.89    197449  98.05      2125   1.06     0.014
9s 8s   34190  16.98    167183  83.02         3   0.00     0.170
7d 6d   36132  17.94    165241  82.06         3   0.00     0.179
Qc Qh   35567  17.66    165806  82.34         3   0.00     0.177
Jc Jh   28976  14.39    172397  85.61         3   0.00     0.144
Tc Th   23662  11.75    177711  88.25         3   0.00     0.118
2c 2h   12621   6.27    188752  93.73         3   0.00     0.063
3c 3h   16496   8.19    184877  91.81         3   0.00     0.082

164

Chuck
ID: 3110521223
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 23:48

Leading a tournament in chips. When these hands come up back to back. I can see how maybe I should have gotten away from hand #1, but see no way I could avoid hand #2. Anyone want to chime in? I was playing tight, though the tables had just merged (short-handed $12 buy-in). Would you have busted out in 2 hands here as well?

PokerStars Game #3328217262: Tournament #16482548, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/12/13 - 23:37:45 (ET)
Table '16482548 2' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Metrofan_CP (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: vladsbad (2505 in chips)
Seat 3: heavydbaby (2525 in chips)
Seat 4: Chuck42181 (5775 in chips)
Seat 6: nicequicker (5695 in chips)
Metrofan_CP: posts small blind 25
vladsbad: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chuck42181 [Qc Qh]
heavydbaby: raises 50 to 100
Chuck42181: raises 200 to 300
nicequicker: folds
Metrofan_CP: folds
vladsbad: folds
heavydbaby: raises 800 to 1100
Chuck42181: raises 4675 to 5775 and is all-in
heavydbaby: calls 1425 and is all-in
Chuck42181 said, "nh"
*** FLOP *** [Td Kc 8d]
*** TURN *** [Td Kc 8d] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [Td Kc 8d 4h] [9d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
heavydbaby: shows [As Ah] (a pair of Aces)
Chuck42181: shows [Qc Qh] (a pair of Queens)
heavydbaby collected 5125 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5125 | Rake 0
Board [Td Kc 8d 4h 9d]
Seat 1: Metrofan_CP (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: vladsbad (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: heavydbaby showed [As Ah] and won (5125) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: Chuck42181 showed [Qc Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 6: nicequicker (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #3328223926: Tournament #16482548, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/12/13 - 23:38:24 (ET)
Table '16482548 2' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Metrofan_CP (1475 in chips)
Seat 2: vladsbad (2455 in chips)
Seat 3: heavydbaby (5125 in chips)
Seat 4: Chuck42181 (3250 in chips)
Seat 6: nicequicker (5695 in chips)
vladsbad: posts small blind 25
heavydbaby: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chuck42181 [Kd Ks]
Chuck42181: raises 200 to 250
nicequicker: raises 200 to 450
Metrofan_CP: folds
vladsbad: folds
heavydbaby: folds
Chuck42181: raises 2800 to 3250 and is all-in
nicequicker: calls 2800
*** FLOP *** [5c Qc 7s]
Chuck42181 said, "unbelievable"
*** TURN *** [5c Qc 7s] [5s]
Chuck42181 said, "gg"
*** RIVER *** [5c Qc 7s 5s] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Chuck42181: shows [Kd Ks] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
nicequicker: shows [Ac Ah] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
vladsbad said, "wow, unreal"
nicequicker collected 6575 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6575 | Rake 0
Board [5c Qc 7s 5s 8h]
Seat 1: Metrofan_CP (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: vladsbad (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: heavydbaby (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Chuck42181 showed [Kd Ks] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 6: nicequicker showed [Ac Ah] and won (6575) with two pair, Aces and Fives

165

Chuck
ID: 3110521223
Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 23:51

It should be noted that hand #2 was the key hand anyway. Even if had laid down the Queens the hand prior, if I end up all in w/ the Kings, I would have been toast, tangling with the chip leader.

In the first hand, I think I should have called the re-re-raise. With a King on the flop, I would have had more reason to fold the Queens.

I still can't see a way to get out of the Kings, especially since a large bet would look like I was tilting, and might get a weaker call than normal from the chip leader. I had not played w/ the chip leader in this tourney, and did not know his playing style.

166

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 08:59

You might be able to get away from the queens on the first hand...after a rereraise I might just call and there is a chance to get away from the hand when the K flops.

The second hand you are stuck...especially after just getting beat by AA and the rest of the table thinking you may be tilting...got to get your money in with KK in that spot.

167

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 09:26

Chuck, first hand is a tough one. Unless heavy was being extremely tight I'd probably end up doing the same thing. However, it should be noted that a min raise or limp UTG is sometimes a sign of strength and the reraise after that should really be setting alarms off. Still, it would take a decent read on my opponent to make the laydown. After his reraise I think it's fold or push time since if you call it'll only be 1400 chips to win 3600 assuming he pushes on the flop.

2nd hand is go broke everytime. There are only a few spots you should fold KK preflop live and even less occassions online.

168

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 12:02

Tough break, Chuck. Nothing you could do.

169

Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 12:35

Agree acrossed the board Chuck. Maybe call the re-raise with Queens and bail out after the flop.....but the KK right after was a great opportunity to get a sucker call. I doubt any of us wouldn't have had all of our chips in with KK right after losing to AA the previous hand.

Ouch.

170

wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 16:04

Any fulltilt players out there, I am wondering how they release the bonus? I have been playing pretty steady on .5/1.00 tables for over a week and I have only recieved 1 15 dollar bonus. Any help would be appriciated.

171

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 16:31

wiggs...I have heard many complain about the fulltilt bonus being difficult to clear but have no experience myself.

172

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 16:52

FTP

The way it works is that you receive $.06 of your bonus for every dollar that is raked from the pot. Thus, people who play in higher stakes games (such as $5-$10 no-limit) end up working off the bonus very quickly, but people who play lower stakes (where the rake is generally not even a dollar) work it off VERY slowly. Most sites award you around $.10 per raked hand, so this deal is not so good for lower stakes players but it is great for higher stakes players.

173

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Thu, Dec 15, 2005, 20:30

PokerStars Game #3343969978: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/12/15 - 20:22:38 (ET)
Table 'Gehrels' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: C.B.M ($7.25 in chips)
Seat 3: dersson ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 4: tabreez ($25 in chips)
Seat 5: dadkessler1 ($18.10 in chips)
Seat 6: Mkobutu ($26.15 in chips)
Seat 7: adfrick99 ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 8: UncleSteve's ($8.40 in chips)
Seat 9: No3Rls ($8.25 in chips)
Mkobutu: posts small blind $0.10
adfrick99: posts big blind $0.25
tabreez: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adfrick99 [2s Qs]
J-Rock-PSK joins the table at seat #2
UncleSteve's: calls $0.25
No3Rls: folds
C.B.M: folds
dersson: folds
tabreez: checks
dadkessler1: calls $0.25
Mkobutu: folds
adfrick99: checks
*** FLOP *** [3s Qh Qc]
adfrick99: checks
UncleSteve's: bets $0.50
tabreez: calls $0.50
dadkessler1: folds
adfrick99: raises $1.50 to $2
UncleSteve's: calls $1.50
tabreez: folds
*** TURN *** [3s Qh Qc] [4s]
adfrick99: bets $1
UncleSteve's: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [3s Qh Qc 4s] [As]
adfrick99: bets $2.50
UncleSteve's: raises $2.50 to $5
adfrick99: calls $0.40 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
UncleSteve's: shows [Ac Ah] (a full house, Aces full of Queens)
adfrick99: mucks hand
UncleSteve's collected $12.75 from pot

I guess I should have bet harder on the Turn, but would you have made UncleSteve's call. I never put him on a high pocket pair after limping in and never making a bet.

174

kev
Donor
ID: 043111845
Thu, Dec 15, 2005, 20:49

UTG before the flop, I could see at a low limit table not raising with the Aces. Myself, and I'm not as good as some on here, but I would also just call with that, and hope to get more callers.

But, after the QQ comes out on the flop, and I get check raised, I would have a pretty good feel I was beat by the trips. He obviously did, and is loose, or didn't think you had it.

175

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Fri, Dec 16, 2005, 17:18

He plays his aces terribly, and is behind on the flop because he didn't get your Q2 gone pre-flop. No matter what the stakes, with AA you want to get heads up with one opponent, which is why you raise.

I definitely think you have to raise the flop here to see where you're at, as your kicker stinks. His call (especially if it was a quick call) would've caught my attention, but adding the flush draw on the turn to your trips probably would've had me betting bigger on the turn then you did. Betting 1$ into a 5.25$ pot isn't going to scare anyone. I'm betting at least 3$ there, maybe even the pot. That, or I'm checking and slowing down entirely. The river card was a disaster for you, making your flush. No way you get away from that, and that just sucks.

Given how your opponent played the hand, its dubious to think that a larger turn bet would've had him folding. He obviously liked his aces on the flop, and the turn card wasn't scary and wouldn't change much. That's looking at the hand with hindsight though; I still think the right play there is to raise by at least 1/2 the pot.

176

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 16, 2005, 21:20

I completely agree that the raise at the turn should have been much larger.

There were several instances at this table of people getting dealt AA and never doing anything other than checking or calling.

If I get get dealt AA or KK I am making a 2-5x BB bet before the flop. I would rather just take the blinds than limp in and give people cheap draws.

It is frustrating enough to lose with AA heads up.

177

FRICK
Donor
ID: 3410101718
Fri, Dec 16, 2005, 22:35

I'm sorry that I keep posting these, but I just wanted to get some opinions on how others would have played this hand. I especially liked the "sorry" after he won.

PokerStars Game #3353585349: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/12/16 - 22:31:49 (ET)
Table 'Tabit IV' Seat #2 is the button
Playboy9: posts small blind $0.10
poolboy3821: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adfrick99 [Ks As]
KiNgPiMp33: folds
roachpole: calls $0.25
Nelz3: folds
Mister206: folds
amirof: folds
adfrick99: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Playboy9: folds
poolboy3821: folds
roachpole: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [4d Tc Kh]
roachpole: checks
adfrick99: bets $1
roachpole: calls $1
*** TURN *** [4d Tc Kh] [7s]
roachpole: checks
adfrick99: bets $2.50
roachpole: raises $2.50 to $5
adfrick99: calls $1.45 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [4d Tc Kh 7s] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
roachpole: shows [Qs Ac] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
adfrick99: mucks hand
roachpole collected $10.70 from pot
roachpole said, "sorry"

178

Chuck
ID: 3110521223
Fri, Dec 16, 2005, 23:16

Pre-flop: Raise 3-4 times the BB. I would raise to $1 or $1.50 there. The power of AK is pre-flop. You need to bet it hard. In reality, I DO NOT want callers when I have AK. If everyone folds pre-flop, I am quite happy. I don't mind a call, but I would prefer to take the pot down before the flop w/ AK

On the flop, hitting a King: Raise at least half the pot. (If you had a caller pre-flop, it would be at least a $1 raise).

On the turn, if you put him on a drawing hand, go all in.

In poker, you are going to get outdrawn. The point is to make people pay for drawing on you as much as possible. You will lose some big pots, but if you are getting your money in with the best hand, it will pay off most of the time.

179

ChicagoTRS
ID: 51828221
Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 01:13

#173...you had such a small stack and with those cards I don't think it mattered much how you played it...all the money was going in. Generally when I have a small stack or vs a small stack I am just going to push in on the flop or turn if I think my hand is probably good or good enough that I know I am not folding. No reason to get very creative. The AA did deserve to lose the hand letting everyone in cheap.

180

ChicagoTRS
ID: 51828221
Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 01:33

#177 Another spot where you are basically stuck...he got lucky. You both had good cards and again your stack was so small that you could not protect your hand. AK should have raised more preflop.

In NL you are going to lose big hands sometimes...goal is just to win them more often. A key to being a consistent winner is to play/bet aggressive enough, make people pay for the opportunity to get lucky. Sometimes they will get lucky but as long as you make them pay for more than the odds dictate you will win those battles in the longrun.

I would also think about playing a limit where you feel comfortable playing with the max buy-in. It is a disadvantage playing a small stack if you want to try to play more creative poker. With a small stack it is relatively simple, you basically choose two cards, try to isolate an opponent, and then get all your money in no matter what flops.

181

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 19:50

Anyone ever played at Pacific Poker before? Unreal how LOOSE these tables are. Maybe I'm just too used to Pokerstars and Partypoker (which I thought was loose) but the players at this site are AWFUL. Its the pokerroom for an online casino, so maybe these guys are just used to gambling, but flop percentages as high as 70% on the 200$ buyin tables. Wow.

I bought in for 50$ after I saw a review somewhere, and in two nights I'm up to 250$ from just a few hours of 25$ and 50$ tables. Last three times I had KK or AA I had at least person going all-in preflop ahead of me!

182

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 19:52

at least "1" person...

183

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 10:57

I'm down for a tourney on stars. I don't have any cash over there but if someone would transfer me cash there I'd do the same for them on Party.

I've switched back over to SNG's on Party. The cash games there are lucrative but I can't seem to justify playing in them unless I'm getting rakeback(I'll be moving some cash over to Full Tilt for that). Also, it's much easier to 4-5 table SNG's than cash games as most of the action in the early levels of them are robotic.

184

wiggs
ID: 271125209
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 12:44

BMD, what do you mean rakeback? I am playing on FTP right now and am curious as to what that means?

BTW, after 2 weeks of playing about 2 hours a night at .5/1.00 ring games I have recieved my 2nd 15 dollar bonus.

185

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 13:29

Just a quick update on my Pacific Poker experience, I'm up to 500$ since signing up. If you're a tight/agressive player you'd love this place. Both NL and Fixed are cakewalks. Fixed tables as high as 2/4$ are regularly at 50-70% view flop, and the 100$ NL buyin can easily reach 60%. I've also already earned my 30$ bonus (for a 50$ deposit).

186

ChicagoTRS
ID: 421042110
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 15:00

wiggs...rakeback is basically you will receive a percentage of your personal rake back.

Example: you are at a 10 person table and the casino rakes $1 from the pot...you are personally responsible for .10 of that rake (whether you are in the hand or not as long as you take the deal)...well if you have a rakeback deal you would receive typically 30-40% of that money back...so for that one hand you would recieve 3-4 cents back. Some pay weekly, some pay monthly...you would be surprised how quickly that penny or two from each pot add up. If you play enough hands it could be a few hundred $ a month...it is not enough money to make a losing player a winner but every little bit helps.

The negatives with rakeback deal is generally you cannot already have an account on that site. Only is offerred for new accounts. Some of the rakeback affiliates are a little shady and some don't pay.

Personally I do not have a rakeback because I do not want to switch sites...I probably should because I play enough to probably earn a hundred or two dollars a month.

187

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 15:07

Rakeback is a program that poker sites give a percentage of a players rake back to the website they signed up through. In turn, those websites give a part of that back to you. The key is finding a trusted affliate to sign up through in order to get a cut of your rake. 2+2 has a whole forum dedicated to the topic and it's fairly easy to find an affliate for FTP there. The major sites, Stars, UB, and Party(they have one but it's extremely hush hush) do not offer this but some of the up and coming sites do.

You'll typically see rakeback anywhere from 20-30%(27% is the highest I've seen for Full tilt).

The formula for this is: (rake taken from pot)/(# of players playing at table) X (rakeback %)

So if you are playing at a full ring game that has a dollar raked from the pot. You'll receive $1.00/10 players X .27 = 2.7 cents. Not much for one hand but if you play a lot this can really add up.

Only problem is once you have a real money account at a website it's nearly impossible to start receiving rakeback if you do not have it already.

188

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 15:24

This is analogous to the Monte Carlo or Jackpot boards in bricks and mortar casinos. It's essentially a rakeback that they gamble for you. The more you play, the more likely it is you hit 4K and win $100 bucks (like I did last week) or more exciting, $9500 for a Royal on Friday night (sadly, not me).

One 3/6 4-table poker room I frequent gives back nearly a million dollars a year from their rake. That's on top of all comps and daily prizes.

That gives me some indication of how lucrative this gig is!

189

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 15:42

Well there you go.

Goldies banked almost 2 million net last year. They must take their Monte Carlo giveback out prior to calculating gross reciepts.

I wonder what the story is for the dealers. They probably make close to $30-50/hour just in tips, while actively dealing. I wonder if they make any base salary at all?

131 Card rooms in Washington, excluding the Indian reservations which are the big ones. I had no idea.

190

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 15:51

Yikes. That's just for that quarter. ~ 8 Mill annually. That seemed a bit too generous to be giving back a third. I tenth of the gross seems about right.

191

wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 16:16

BMD, So are you saying I should have looked into this before I signed up?

192

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 17:31

Yes, see post 49. However, I'm pretty sure rakeback for Full tilt counts against your bonus so it really doesn't matter until all of your bonus money is cleared.

193

wiggs
Donor
ID: 04991311
Wed, Dec 21, 2005, 20:37

just recieved my 3rd bonus payout from FTP.

I have been having pretty good luck with playing there. While they do not offer a referral bonus they do offer a rakeback from referred players. If anyone wants to sign up they give 100 percent bonus on your deposit and i would be willing to split any rakebacks. Email me if you are interested,

194

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 00:19

An update for the private tourney.

Hello Richard,

We are pleased to extend you the ability to post your own
regular "private tournaments" to the PokerStars lobby. Your account
has been updated so that you may now do so.

Tournaments you deploy will have a "standard structure", 1500 starting
chips and 15 minute rounds, with the same structure as a sit and go
event of the same type.

To post a new tournament, log into the PokerStars software and locate
the menu for "Private Tournaments" at the bottom of the "Requests"
menu.

A few points about the creation of events:

1) A password is required, and must be 6 characters or more. The
password is case sensitive. The password must not be used in the
message or tourney name fields, as it cannot be displayed in the
tournament lobby.

2) Stud games may not be Pot Limit or No Limit.

3) We recommend tournaments be deployed several days prior to their
start times for best turnout, though we can run events on as
little as 60 minutes notice.

4) We advise including the buy-in amount in the name of the event,
for clarity. Otherwise, players will have to visit the
tournament lobby to locate the buy-in amount.

5) The "Message" field is optional, and what you place here will be
displayed in the tourney lobby in the upper right panel.

6) An event can be canceled from the software only if there are no
players signed up. Once players have signed up, the event can be
cancelled only by a system administrator at PokerStars.

Please keep the all fields free of profanity or inappropriate
references. PokerStars reserves the right to remove any event
deployed with inappropriate references. Abuse of the feature
by deploying inappropriate material may result in the loss of this
privilege.

PokerStars provides the ability to create private events as a courtesy
for our frequent players. These events are not intended to be "open"
events, nor to drive traffic from PokerStars to an outside web site.
As such, a tournament title or tournament "lobby message" cannot
contain a URL or an Email address (such as a location where the
password can openly be found).

Good luck running your private games! We thank you and your group
for choosing PokerStars as the home of your private events.

Regards,

Erick
PokerStars Support Team

-----------------------------------------------

So we're good to go as soon as we decide on:

1) Entrance fee.
2) The day.
3) The password.

195

beastiemiked
ID: 481116721
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 00:33

1. It doesn't matter to me. I'll vote for $15 as I think that won't put a dent into anyone's roll and the winner will at least get something more than bragging rights.

2. I'd say a weeknight(Mon-Thurs) would probably be the best.

196

beastiemiked
ID: 481116721
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 00:34

Also, does anyone have an account at Stars and Party that would be willing to transfer me some money? I would return them the favor on Party.

197

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 00:36

$15 and I'm out. $5 or nothing for me.

198

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 00:37

And a weeknight is best for me as well.

199

Micheal
ID: 1010242320
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 03:21

bmd

Do you have a full tilt account? I could transfer you on PS, but I don't have a PP account.

200

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 03:43

I have accounts both PS and PP, but cashed out entirely at party and only have about 50$ at pokerstars. If the tourney is only 5$ I don't have a problem there, although what I'll do with 5$ at partypoker is beyond me. ;)

201

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 09:42

Turn it into riches beyond your wildest dreams, I'm sure.

I'm in for $5 if I can figure out how to get $5 in there. What are the options?

202

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 10:06

I saw this hand over on 2+2 and thought it was a good discussion hand. $55 SNG, top 3 pay 50/30/20.

Blinds 100/200
UTG (t3465)
Button (t2210)
SB (t2215)
Hero (t2110)

Button pushes all in, SB calls, you wake up with QQ. What do you do?

203

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 10:11

Fold, unless your main goal is to win 1st.

204

swami
ID: 75542011
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 10:31

I'm in for $5

205

ChicagoTRS
ID: 51828221
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 11:45

#202 Well folding pretty much guarantees you at least 3rd place...unless they split the pot. You still have a good enough stack that you can realistically compete against the remaining two. If you call and win you have just made minimally 2nd...with a good shot at first with a 2 to 1 chip lead.

Your best scenario if you do call is one player has a lower pair and the other has something like AK...you would be looking at a coin flip and getting 2 to 1 on your money. There is a chance both have underpairs and then you would be a big favorite. The hands you fear are AA or KK where you are in big trouble. A missing piece of information is what kind of read you have on the two opponents...are they pushing in often? is this the first time they have went all-in? Have you seen either play a big pair by pushing in? Is the 50 SNG a big gamble for you where you would be happy with 2nd or 3rd or does the hero play them regularly? The player you really must be concerned with is the SB...he has you covered and generally you must be stronger to call a big raise than to make the raise.

Result...I call the all-in. Why? I figure the SB for the hand with more potential to have me beat...If the SB does win the hand...UTG & Hero split the 3rd place money ~50 ea...so I figure a fair chance I am minimally getting my buy-in back. If I win the hand I am in solid position to win the tournament and take 250.

There is always another sit n go...If it was UTG that had me covered and SB & hero had the same stack I would likely fold. It is a pretty good question and if someone decided to fold there I could not make a strong argument that it is the wrong play.

206

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 12:29

TRS, if SB wins you are out 4th and receive $0.

SB's calling range has to be small probably no worse than 88+ AJ+. Even if I consider the SB a maniac I'm folding into the money. KK I fold as well. If I have more chips than the button it makes the decision a little tougher. I'm still leaning towards folding in this scenario unless I suspect SB's calling range is wide.

207

ChicagoTRS
ID: 51828221
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 17:18

Unless I am missing something...If the SB wins you and UTG are both out of the tournament and you would split the 3rd place money....oops just relooked at the amounts...I read it 2210 vs 2215 vs 2210 instead of the hero having 2110. Still at least where I play SNGs if the hero and UTG both go out on the same hand they would split the 3rd place $ no matter what the starting stacks. If the place is determined by stack size entering the hand then I could agree with folding.

The button making that play could be a wide range of hands trying to steal the blinds but I would have to at least put him on a decent hand for him to go all-in...probably the minimum hand is Ax. The SB has to be that much better...if you are right and the hands you put him on are "no worse than 88+ AJ+" I think you have to call as you have a majority of those hands absolutely dominated. You are behind vs AA and KK ...you are better than even money vs AK...you have AQ, AJ, JJ, 1010, 99, 88 dominated. The fact that you are getting 2-1 on your call I think makes it correct. If the SB is a maniac then I do not even think twice about calling because I feel there is a far better chance I have the best hand. I do not think I would ever fold KK preflop in a SNG unless someone showed me AA.

I do not play a ton of SNGs but when I play I am playing for first place...I am not satisfied with limping into 3rd place money.

208

ChicagoTRS
ID: 51828221
Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 18:21

New poker thread started....

Forum: gentPage 111Subject: Poker Part III

Forum: gent
Page 111
Subject: Poker Part III