Self Editor

Forum: hock
Page 4877
Subject: ATTN TSN: Do you have a problem?

Posted by: Wian - Sustainer [4210183022] Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 07:08

I unusually, manually checked a divisional leader's team this morning and seem to have found a discrepancy with his scoring for 12/04. A quick addition of the two players that scored points for this day equals 80, not 115. On further investigation of his weekly stats breakdown for 12/04 we can see that for some reason he's scoring points for Brendan Morrison who is not on his frozen roster.

This may be an aspect of the game that I don't fully understand. If anyone has an explanation for me, I'd be grateful if you could bring me up to speed.

Dr. Doom
ID: 16142182
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 07:12

The problem on the frozen roster is that you are actually looking at his current roster. This seems to stem from the changes that TSN put in yesterday.

Wian
Sustainer
ID: 4210183022
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 07:26

Thanks Dr. Doom for the likely source of the problem. Are you aware of any other times that this type of problem has occured when they've performed maintenance or upgraded?

Dr. Doom
ID: 16142182
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 07:41

Not recently.

This is not due to the maintenance that was done this morning, rather a request to show some new (sort of) information on the frozen roster pages. It was put in yesterday afternoon sometime. The request originated on the TSN message board and it seems the problem might already exist in the basic game.

Wian
Sustainer
ID: 4210183022
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 08:11

Thanks again Dr. Doom for the clarification, although I'm still in the dark somewhat. If what you're suggesting is true and if this is an ongoing problem, then anyone sampling rosters could have insider information on the price movers for the day. I can't see this being tolerable from anyone's standpoint.

In any event, I'm running a sample of frozen rosters to see if there's any information to be gained.

Richard
ID: 5410352713
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 08:48

Wian - I hate to burst your bubble but folks have been sampling current rosters for years and doing precisely what you are suggesting, and, I must say, predicting price movers with uncanny accuracy.

Richard

ukula
Donor
ID: 56115510
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 11:50

It's one thing to sample frozen rosters but sampling current rosters in just unfair. Richard - since you seem to post your predictions of price movers from time to time I would assume you have access to current rosters. And it also looks like you are using this info to your own advantage as I see your team in the ESDNHL division has an RV of 61+ while most others have an RV between 55-58. This is cheating plain and simple. Eric and Bernie need to close this "window" in order to protect the integrity of the game.

Wian
Sustainer
ID: 4210183022
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 12:01

Some possible gainers.

Thornton, Joe
Bure, Pavel
Boyle, Dan
Poti, Tom
Boguniecki, Eric
Brathwaite, Fred
Berard, Bryan
St. Louis, Martin
Hossa, Marian
Stillman, Cory

and losers

Tarnstrom, Dick
Turco, Marty
Weekes, Kevin
Sakic, Joe
Hejduk, Milan
Morrison, Brendan
Sanderson, Geoff
Morozov, Aleksey
Modano, Mike
Lemieux, Mario

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 12:20

If the information is available, do you blame the people who use the information or the people who are providing the information? Personally, I blame the person providing the information (that would be TSN in this case).

The Dienasty
ID: 557221718
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 12:24

This problem better get fixed soon.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 12:35

Back off Richard. He SHARES his infomration over the years with the boards, and then, it's up to each and every one of us to decide whether we want to use it. Richard's type analysis may not be your cup of tea, you may prefer a more points-oriented strategy, but that does not preclude folks from doing what he does.

Personally, if the cards are dealt in a certain way, I think it's incumbent on each us to either play the game as it currently stands, or choose another game.

Regarding the apparent "change in rules" one might infer from TSN's changing of roster viewability, I think changes like this should not be made mid-stream, and my gut tells me Erik or Bernie will be chiming in shortly to explain further.

- walk

Richard
Leader
ID: 7934413
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 12:42

The gainers and losers are easily determined by paying attention to schedule anomolies, injury updates, on ice performance and yesterdays price movers.

I didn't need roster sampling to tell me to drop Turco (had to hold until today due to poor trade management) and to drop Sakic today. I would have prefered to drop these guys a few days ago but my few remaining trades went to selling Tarnstrom and Weekes when they got injured. Others weren't so lucky and had to wait until today to sell Tarnstrom and Weekes.

It's pretty easy to make money if you pay attention to schedule, injuries and hot performances.

What I really need is the wonderful crystal ball that Dan (WWR of 25) and others are using to find the great point performances. Anyone got such a crystal ball I can borrow?

Richard

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 12:47

Not me, Richard! Hey, you are doing well, this being your 2nd year of hockey. In 4th place in "the elite" Eat, Sleep, Drink NHL league is now small achievement. And you know that building a sound franchise value will afford you some more studs faster than most others.

I got a "Dan" type playe in one of my autodivisions, too. Mofo picks up Pavel Bure just before he had 2 goal game and then, of course, the 4-point hattie game. Unreal! He has been doing that crap all year long.

Hat's off to managers like Dan and Hatrick Hagglers, whoever you are.

- walk

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 14:31

Hey, I got Bure's 6-point-in-2-games too on my day-late team. =)

Rogue Nine
ID: 25114950
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 15:30

It seems that I am able to do what Dan and walk's competitor do for short periods of time, whereas they do it all season long. I did the same thing in baseball... would go on a tear, be #1 over the last 5 days amongst all gurupies for a few days (sometimes a week) and then fade into anonimity for a while, posting pathetic totals and losing money. Would probably be amusing, if it was happening to SOMEONE ELSE! :) (I went from 12th in the ESDNHL division to 5th, only to fall back to 10th... Will undoubtedly climb back up soon, only to fall back down again later... lol)

I tip my hat off to Dan, and to Smallwhirled, who has almost caught me in points (has already passed me in money) after starting a week late.

Richard: Out of curiosity, are you using an Excel spreadsheet to sample current rosters? I'm not going to be a freeboater and ask for your program/sheet, but I wouldn't mind programming my own, and was wondering if Excel is the way to go.

ukula
Donor
ID: 401114512
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 16:14

Am I the only one who thinks that when a few owners have access to current rosters it ruins the integrity of the game? These owners can easily accumulate RV easier than the rest of us.

Rogue Nine
ID: 25114950
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 16:31

Nothing stopping you from doing the same thing, so no, I don't feel that it ruins the integrity of the game.

If Richard was using some backdoor TSN code to gain access, and thus was the only one with access to it, then yes, I'd call that cheating. As it is, he's just making use of the same thing that any other competitor can use.

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 17:24

ukula, realistically, you can pretty much predict the next day's Price Movers by looking at today's list. Swap in/out a couple of guys who gain/lose $20k, add in any injured players/replacements, and sprinkle in a bad schedule or 2 and it's pretty much the same list every day. Anyone who has played the game in the past knows this. Does this mean that experience ruins the integrity of the game?

I would put money on Richard being able to predict the Price Movers on any given day without using roster sampling. Why? Because he knows how to think like the lemmings. He knows how to forget the reasons why HE would drop/add a player and instead follow the reasons why the masses would drop/add a player. Most people get caught up in thinking that their reasons are the same reasons that everyone uses and they're not. This is why a lot of people get surprised by the Price Movers.

Back when I was sampling in Baseball, I could tell you who was moving what direction on any given day before I did any sampling. Sure there was the occassional anomoly, but they were few and far between. Think like a lemming and you'll know too.

Wian
Sustainer
ID: 4210183022
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 17:38

Rogue Nine, you're not being consistant with your approach to this issue. On the TSN message boards you're asking them to "please fix this loophole", yet here you're claiming that it doesn't ruin the integrity of the game. Where is it that you stand anyway?

Personally, I'm not impressed with the new system even though I'm well positioned to take full advantage of it. It's a moral issue whereby my gut's saying not to peek into the price movers, however, my brain is seeing dollar signs and lots of them.

My suggestion is to roll back this upgrade and revert back to the twenty four hour frozen roster method... it seems to be the only fair solution.

Bernie H.
ID: 01017112
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 17:47

The state of the frozen roster page as it stood today was not intentional. It was an error we plan to fix very shortly.

Aside from that, there is no way to view other teams' current rosters. At least not that we know of. If anyone can point me to a case where current-roster sampling was done, that would help us track down the loophole.

Thanks,
Bernie, TSN

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 18:37

I knew it! Thanks Bernie for clarifying the situation. Smallworld did away with viewing current rosters eons ago (as if, "eons", but you get my point), and I did not think for a minute this was intentional. Good call, "ref."

Regarding ukula, yeah maybe you are the only one who thinks this ruins the integrity of the game. If everyone has the same access, how can anything ruin the integrity of the game. What you choose to do in a given game, any game, versus someone else, within the published rules, is part of the game.

Now, given that TSN says they will correct this unintentional problem, if someone figures out a way to sample CURRENT rosters to gain an advantage, when it is clear that folks are not supposed to view current rosters, now that would (in part) ruin the integrity of the game.

Keep stable, bro.

;-)

- walk

Rogue Nine
ID: 25114950
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 20:46

Wian, my stance is pretty simple: The team pages should show the frozen roster, since that is the way the game was supposed to be set up. (Bernie says they'll fix it, so I'm happy.) My stance is also that Richard isn't cheating. He's using a hole in the game that is there for everyone to use if they are able. In that sense, its just not cheating.

The main difference between the two is that Richard just gets a basic idea of what the price movers will look like, whereas my division competitors where able to see who I, and I alone got before the freeze. Knowing that Poti will rise about 50-100K is very different than knowing who your division leader just picked up.

Bottom line: I have no problem with Richard using his current methods for price tracking (which he shares with us from time-to-time) but I do have a problem with my division rivals seeing who I picked up.

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 21:30

Rogue - I disagree totally. When your divisional competition has access to your team they have an advantage on you, but actually you have the same advantage on them. When Richard peers into the current rosters he has an advantage on ALL the people playing this game. I can't believe you would think that this is not cheating. That's like saying that a computer hacker that has access to your bank account isn't a criminal afterall everybody could do it if they just knew how.

I also find it interesting that two of Richard's defenders are Rogue Nine and walk, who also happen to have two of the highest RV's in the Eat, Sleep, Drink NHL division. My feeling is that all of you have access to current rosters through this "hole" in the game.

Richard has basically admitted that he and others have been sampling current rosters "for years" (Post #5). Richard has also posted pretty detailed information on specific price moves prior to roster freezes in other threads on other days.

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 21:42

walk says - "Personally, if the cards are dealt in a certain way, I think it's incumbent on each us to either play the game as it currently stands, or choose another game."

Apparently Richard's cards are dealt face down and everyone else's cards are dealt face up. At the beginning of November Richard bragged that one of his teams was over 57 million. Many teams still haven't reached that level one month later.

My feeling is that a few select Gurupies have access to current rosters and that is a big part of their success.

Richard claims - "The gainers and losers are easily determined by paying attention to schedule anomolies, injury updates, on ice performance and yesterdays price movers." Yeah, Ok Richard, don't patronize me, I've built up a 58+ RV w/o cheating and with limited hockey knowledge.

Anyone who still believes that these guys are playing by the rules also believe that the crash at Roswell was a weather balloon, Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, we actually landed on the moon, and Britney Spears is a virgin.

This is BS.

Rogue Nine
ID: 41117520
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 21:44

Well thank you for the compliment on my RV (despite the thrashing it took the last few days) but no, I haven't had access to current rosters. (In fact, in post 14 you can see that I'm asking Richard how he's doing it.)

I've earned my money by mainly employing the tactics that KKB stated in post 17. I have a spreadsheet with the entire NHL schedule, and thus can see the holes in team's schedules very easily. (I can also see when they have a great upcoming schedule.) KKB's site has tools that you can use for this.

Now on to Richard's supposed 'cheating'. I have my spreadsheet, and about 2-3% of the TSN game (maybe less) have access to KKB's Kafenatid and all its tools. Are we cheating? The rest of the league doesn't have access to his site (mostly because they don't know about it) but it IS there for everyone to use. So are NHL schedules on any of a dozen major sites. So are we cheating by using this data?

Richard is most likely using a spreadsheet to scan teams, and give him a list of all the players on them. This isn't hacking, or stealing, its simply using data that is there. Robbing from someone's bank account is an acknoledged crime in our society; scanning current rosters is not. (Neither is it stated in TSN's rules that you can't do this either.) So I ask, how is he cheating? Does he have an advantage over the rest of the field that doesn't have access to his data? Yes. But then so do the users of Kafenatid. Why is one cheating and the other not?

Simply put, we're in a competetive game, and we're going to use the tools available to us. Unless its stated in the rules that it isn't allowed, it isn't cheating.

Rogue Nine
ID: 41117520
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 21:51

Post 23 was mine, equal to 25 except for a pretty big typo that changed the entire meaning of my last sentence. I had to fix it. Just in case some were wondering.

Ukula, I still don't understand what your upset about. Nobody is stopping you, or any other player, from creating a spreadsheet to do exactly what Richard has done. Neither is anyone stopping you from using Kafenatid, or from using any other tools that you create to help you win. (I'm currently working on a 'goalie schedule', which will give me the GAA, SAV %, W/L ratio and other stats of the goalies going in each game vs the team their playing.) Nobody else will have access to this tool, unless I post it daily in the forums here. Again, not cheating... just a tool I created to give myself an advantage.

walk
Leader
ID: 410551120
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 22:05

Ditto rogue nine on ukula. You are either a very bad attorney or merely way out of line. Two minutes in the penalty box for you.

I do not sample rosters personally, but use my noggin'. This means checking out the price movers daily, reading threads, and looking at the schedules. Not only that, you make false accusations that are truly inappropriate:

where has Richard said that he samples current rosters? And for that matter, me and nine?

Your circumstantial evidence and false accusations are actually disrespectful. Why do you presume the worst? Why cast aspersions? Maybe there are other motivations here... A feeling that you should be doing better on your roster value, and since you are not, you blame others that they must be cheating? Is it not possible that these others are doing better at making money merely because, uh-er, they are better at it?

I have been playing smallworld hockey for 4 or 5 years now; I have a good feel for the game. My apologies if that makes you feel I have the skills, inclination, and values that lead me to cheat.

a) I don't have very strong excel skills/knowledge;
b) I don't have the time nor the inclination to sample rosters;
c) I don't have the values that would lead me to sample current rosters to get a competitive edge.

So, I think an apology is in order, or I am going to have to send Sandy McCarthy over to your place and knock some sense into you. We are cordial board and usually have nice things to say to each other before we make any assumptions or inappropriate accusations.

To sum, what is BS is your attitude. Check it. Ask questions before your draw conclusions and put your skate in your mouth. My reputation on these boards and in this game is well-known. I have met many gurupies including Guru. Richard has been around these parts for years, too. We always play in the spirit of the game. If you asked some polite questions, maybe you get the straight answers you are seeking. This will be my last post about this to try and set you straight until you also try and take the high road.

Please be courteous to your fellow line-mates. We are much more similar than you think!

:-)
walk

Richard
ID: 5410352713
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 22:17

Rogue Nine - I've been using Excel for a few years to keep track (sample) rosters in various TSN/SW games. It started maybe three or four years ago - times flies and I don't really remember exactly what year it was - during a baseball season. I shared my techniques freely teaching a few oldtimers on this board how to use Excel to automate the processing of gathering roster information. I started with Excel 97 and have progressed to using Excel 2000.

I do not know how to access any page on the TSN website that you or any others could not open in an Internet browser. I just use to Excel to automate the browsing of the pages that TSN makes available for public viewing. I can't open any page that you couldn't or any pages that ukula couldn't.

The simple approach I use is to have Excel open a webpage. You can go to a blank page in an Excel spreadsheet and use a web query to open any web page that you know the URL to. Use the Data-Get External Data-New Web Query and type in a URL. You can even open up www.cnn.com and the Excel web query command will bring back the page and scatter text in various cells on the spreadsheet page. Hopefully this will help get you started.

Walk - remember the old days when we had voyages of discovery about what the SW game with it's trade-based pricing model was all about. I kind of miss the old days when I didn't know near as much about how trades and the "lemming mentality" affected the price movement. It's been quite awhile since I been surprized by a price movement. Unfortunately I still get caught using too many trades and sometimes have to hold a Turco thru a few days of losses. This past week I knew Tarnstrom and Turco were both going to lose money but Tarnstrom had the biggest potential for huge losses so I spent my last trade getting out of him and kept Turco. I knew that his injury would force managers, like me, to spend their last trade and those, like me, with only one trade to spend could rationalize holding Turco thru a scheduling lull but we couldn't/wouldn't hold a injured player.

Richard

walk
Leader
ID: 410551120
Thu, Dec 05, 2002, 22:23

Yeah, Richard. I do remember. Nowadays is does seem more predictable ... yet you as you have discovered, with every new learned skill, comes the downside -- there are too few trades to accommodate our hunger to maximize/optimize our teams. I would bet you got caught short last week because somewhere earlier you used a trade to maximize some money gains or avoid some money losses. Ultimately, it's difficult to turn down the obvious move -- and injuries sometimes come in three's.

Good to have you in here, as always.

- walk

deepsnapper
Sustainer
ID: 5210561414
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 08:46

ukula - 1 word: apologize

walk - I'm imagining a picture of you with your head in a programming guide writing an Excel2000 spreadsheet. Then realizing you'd probably need V.2010 to finish it. (;-Þ)

Richard - I've got several copies of those SW baseball Excel97 spreadsheets stored around here on an email BU. I'd try and change one, screw it up, so then Paul would change it, then email it to me again.

I sure miss philliephan

Hard to believe it's only been 2 years.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 09:09

deepsnapper! Yeah, that's about right! (and I actually pretty good here where I work compared to most, but compared to the wiz-kids on these boards like KKB and Richard, I'm a mere "typist").

Yeah, Paul was a great soothing and informative and funny presence here. His self lives on ways, I hope.

;-)
walk

ukula
Donor
ID: 14114467
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 09:40

Apologize for what? For disagreeing with the Good Ol' Boy Gurupie Network? It won't happen. Walk should apologize to me for threatening physical violence (post# 27).

"where has Richard said that he samples current rosters?" - walk

In post #5 Richard states that people have been sampling current rosters for years. In post #14 Rogue Nine asks Richard what he uses to sample current rosters. Richard has been posting his predictions of daily price movers for some time now - based on some sort of sampling prior to the roster freeze. Richard has never denied being able to sample current rosters. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, its a Duck!!!

You guys are Hypocrites!! In post #21 Rogue Nine expresses outrage that his divisional opponent may be able to see his current roster yet doesn't mind that Richard can see everyone's current rosters. What about Richard's divisional opponents? Is it fair for them?

Using the tools on Kafenatid, Rotoguru, or any other "tool" you use to gain an advantage on your opponent is one thing (by the way Rogue Nine, knock yourself out on your little Goalie schedule), but having access to roster information that you shouldn't be able to have (see Bernie's post #19) is wrong and not in the spirit of the game. Sure it's TSN's fault for making this information available, but you should alert TSN about the loophole, not take advantage of it. Did you take change out of your mother's purse when she left it on the counter? Afterall, it was her fault for leaving it on the counter! Did you copy off the smart kid next to you in class? Afterall, it was his fault for not covering up his paper! Apparently many of you have kids - what is this teaching your kids? Would you have a problem if your kid happened to find a file on the computer at school with all of the exam answers on it? A long as he got an 'A' who cares, right?

I can't believe the Good Old Gurupie Network has taken advantage of this situation for years. Let's all play on an even playing field and see who wins, or is winning that important to you? Wian seems like the only sensible one on this thread.

walk - I'm impressed that you met the Guru. I just hope that wasn't the highlight of your life. You also seem very sensitive to criticism - I think they have medication for that, you know, to control any deep-rooted issues you may have. Try to relax.

ukula

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 09:50

Ok, ukula:

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 09:52

And that was when I set the rotoguru boards as my default webpage on my browsers. I remember being confused about what happened to Philliephan because I was new here.

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 327481911
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 10:05

ukula, you seem to be missing a very important part in all of this. There is a VERY distinct difference in the advantage gained by sampling live rosters and being able to see your division opponents live rosters.

For anyone who has played the game for even one season, sampling live rosters isn't going to tell you much. You seem to think it does, but the people who know how to do it (myself included) keep insisting that it shows you nothing other than what could already be expected.

When I did the Pitcher movement posts in baseball, I was also using a spreadsheet to track live rosters because I, like you, thought it would give me an advantage to make some money. However, about a month into sampling live rosters, I stopped doing it because it was a big waste of time for me. Day in and day out, the results were exactly what I was expecting. I was spending over an hour to run a spreadsheet for it to just spit out player movement that I had already predicted based on the things Richard and I have posted previously in this thread. I could also just use the Sortables and sort by TNSP over the last 7 days and the top 5 guys were almost assured to be on the Price Gainers list. No big surprises there either.

The main issue with the problem TSN experienced with this thread is actually more related to points. If you can actually see the live rosters of the other people in your division, then you know what moves they are making. Come the end of the season, you can match their moves if you have the division lead and make it so they can't catch up. This, in my opinion, is detrimental to the spirit of the game and is why I never did that. To me, and I think most people on this board would agree, that takes all the fun out of the game. You end up playing a defensive game, rather than the game that you want to play. In the fairness of competition, this is why I think TSN had a problem with this information being readily available.

I know you'll think that what I've typed is a contradiction, but it's not if you take the time to see the distinct difference in the two methods of using live roster data. One method gives a manager a distinct advantage in planning player moves, the other simply confirms the obvious (to those with any TSN experience).

Dec
ID: 29107410
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 10:08

ukula,

When Richard talk about sampling current rosters, he means sampling current roster at the time of the last Price update.

I understand you could be upset if he had access to real time roster but it's not the case.

Yesterday, there was a problem on TSN site cause we had access to the real time roster. Hope TSN has made the correction but I didn't check it.

ukula
Donor
ID: 14114467
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 10:23

KKB - Thank you for being civil about this disagreement. I don't see the difference between sampling many live rosters and sampling your divisional opponents live rosters. First of all, I'm sure that your hunches about price movements haven't been 100% correct over time. Say, for instance, that you feel Pavel Bure and Jaromir Jage are possible buys on that day due to similar schedules, performance, price, etc. You think that each has a chance to increase in price and you are torn between which one to pick up. If you ran a sampling program that tells you Bure has been picked over Jagr by a 6-1 margin, wouldn't that make your decision easier (everything else being equal)? And wouldn't that be an unfair advantage by using information that most people playing the game don't have access to and that you are NOT supposed to have access to?

The bottom line is that anyone who can sample live rosters can also sample their division opponents rosters for their own benefit, either differetiation if behind, or shadowing if ahead. You may not do this but other people that have this ability to see rosters prior to the freeze may do this. I'm sure not everyone has the morals that you have.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:02

ukula, I am usually quite calm on these boards and not defensive, but when someone throws a punch, I am going to throw one or two back. When you accuse me of cheating, I think you are the one who is out of line and should apologize.

When you then reply, "apologize for what?" you show your ignorance.

When you imply that I have no life because I mentioned that I have met other gurupies or that I need to take medication to calm down, I think you are projecting. You seem to speak quite freely about things you know little about, about people you know nothing about, and about a community that generally is courteous to one another. Everyone is welcome here, but the more you intend to flame others and go on the offensive, the more you will perceive a "good 'ol boy gurupie network." If we were a good ol boy network as you say, we would not welcome you, we would ignore you or ask you to leave. That has not happened.

What is your goal? Do you want to engage in personal attacks on others or do you want to have a constructive dialogue? You thank KKB for giving a "civil response," but you, yourself are not civil. You take my wisecracks about having Sandy McCarthy coming over and knocking some sense into you as some literal threat. You avoid taking responsibility for your own posts. Give if you want to get.

Again, you could approach this entire situation a little (A LOT) more civil yourself by asking what people do specifically, now, before you make inferences, draw conclusions and publicly bash and convict based on your rather weak attempts at collecting data.

You can either take the high road or the low road. In the other thread on Richard's predictions, you ask him a direct question about whether he can sample current rosters? It is implied that if he can, he does, and then uses this information to an unfair advantage. Why not instead do you not ask Richard if he in fact DOES sample current rosters to make trading decisions? This might help you with your case.

You can either be friendly about it, or unfriendly about it. Your glass is half empty attitude about others morals is something you should consider carefully. Each person is likely to get pretty darn defensive when someone else publicly accuses them of cheating. For that matter, maybe you cheat. Yeah, that's the ticket, "thou doth protest too much." Therefore, you are the cheater. Maybe you should take the medication to calm down. Ironically, I can professionally help you on this myself, since you are asking me to seek the very help that I provide others. I'll give it to you instead.

ukula, it's nice to be nice....try it out when you walk down this kinda road, king duck.

- walk

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 327481911
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:05

ukula, again you're missing the point. If I'm looking for money gains, then I don't "feel" anything. I start thinking like a lemming and when you think like a lemming, the choices are pretty obvious about 90% of the time. Would sampling help you that other 10% of the time? Sure. Would it help you enough to be an unfair advantage? Not likely. If nothing else, I ask everyone else in the forums for their opinion and, if the difference were 6-1 as you say, then the responses would likely show me who to buy. I don't need sampling for that. And if the difference were going to be 6-1, then something is obvious about buying one player over another. Even in all of my post-freeze sampling, I don't recall seeing anything over about a 1% difference that wasn't obvious.

The biggest difference between sampling many live rosters and sampling your division managers' rosters, especially now with the division prize, is that the "Many Live Rosters" sampling isn't going to give you much of an advantage. As I said, I know this from experience.

I'm sure you'll never agree on this because you haven't seen the data and that's fine. But you really shouldn't point an accusatory finger without knowing much about the process and its results. You assume that Richard has gotten all of his price gains simply through roster sampling, yet have no idea how many live roster samples he's done this year (just ask, I'm sure he'll tell you). I outgained many of my division foes in baseball without any live roster sampling for a very large majority of the season (again, it became pointless).

In other words, just because someone knows how to do something, it doesn't mean they're doing it or using it to their advantage in the manner that you assume. Don't be so quick to judge before you know the full story.

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 327481911
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:14

FWIW, with absolutely no roster sampling (I'm not even playing TSN Hockey), here are my predictions for price movers. We'll see how I do without any research.

Top Gainers
Thornton, Joe
Brathwaite, Fred
Hossa, Marian
Bure, Pavel
Boguniecki, Eric

Top Losers
Tarnstrom, Dick
Turco, Marty
Weekes, Kevin
Sakic, Joe
Hejduk, Milan

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:25

KKB - Ok, I'll accept what you say about not using live sampling to make roster decisions, although I still believe it can be done by people who don't have the "feel" that you are talking about. It can, however, be used by someone to shadow/differentitate their divisional opponent. Anyway you look at it it can be used to someone's advantage someway, somehow. I think you'll agree on that point. If that is the case then TSN needs to close this window to prevent this access. Either that, or allow this access to everyone.

Would you feel comfortable giving your credit card to everyone on this board if they promise not to use it? Of course not.

I feel strongly about this because someone in another league last year had access to my roster changes and almost cost me thousands of $$. Thankfully, Todd Helton ripped a double in the last game of the season and spoiled this guy's dreams of riches. Let's all play on an even playing field and see who wins. Isn't that what the spirit of competition is all about?

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:34

By the way, the guy that I was referring to in the last post was a Gurupie HOFer who shall remain nameless. Now you understand my feeling about this matter. Not everyone is moral and sportsmanlike.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:37

It sure is ukula, and I don't think anyone here feels differently than you do. I certainly take no benefit from winning with an unfair advantage. Where's the challenge in that? I feel so strongly about this, that I have taken some valuable time to chime in again and again and have taken offense at your false allegations. You suggest things that we take very seriously and feel quite similar to you about. It's really quite ironic!

The spirit of the game is also about being a little more sportsmanlike on the field (i.e. on these boards), and you can better do your part. How about taking some responsibility for some of the inappropriate accusations you make, or is that "within the spirit of YOUR (idiosyncratic) game" ...?

- walk

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 327481911
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:45

ukula, I can understand your feelings, but projecting those feelings on those people who you have no reason to believe are being unsportsmanlike or immorale is wrong, IMHO.

There will always be a few bad apples in any bunch and I agree that it's in the best interest of TSN overall to have the "doorway" blocked, but I still don't see Roster Sampling (not Viewing) as cheating for the reasons I stated above.

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:54

KKB - You may be right about sampling as not being much of a benefit, but I wouldn't truly know because I don't have the access. Unless I can see for myself I will always have doubt, but I respect your opinion.

What is the difference between sampling and viewing? Sampling is viewing but on a larger scale. Viewing can benefit someone who wants to know what their division rival is up to. It's pretty black and white to me.

Maybe I ruffled some feathers in this thread but the truth eventually came out that some people have access to current rosters. I just don't understand why this wasn't brought to TSN's attention by someone over the past few years.

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 11:58

I think I had plenty of reason to think that walk and Rogue Nine had the access. They were very quick to defend Richard, who turned out to have the information they denied, and their RVs seemed higher than average. I won't apologize for thinking that there may be fire amidst all the smoke. Anyway, are anyone's feelings hurt so bad that they need an apology? C'mon are we a bunch of schoolgirls?

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:05

As much as I like and respect the folks on the boards, and as much as I think ukula may have been out of line, an important thing has happened in this thread in post #19.

TSN has acknowledged that they aren't aware of this loophole, feel it shouldn't exist, and have requested information so they can fix it.

This request can't ethically be ignored.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:07

"I had plenty of reason to think that walk and rogue nine had access to rosters."

Because we quickly come to the defense of a friend we are guilty. Guilty by association. We are schoolgirls. Perhaps you do not have the courage or values to admit when you are wrong, when you have done something that is inappropriate or unkind. You boast of some high ethical value system you have about cheating, and all I see is some dude who is willing to bash others outta line and then not own up to his misdeeds. Perhaps you are the true hypocrite.

As I said then, you are a bad attorney. The only guilt here is your demeanor. Good luck with your interpersonal relations in your life. I am sure your friends, family and mate will have issues.

Later for you.
- walk

smallwhirled
Donor
ID: 17152614
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:08

ukula, what are you talking about?

I think I had plenty of reason to think that walk and Rogue Nine had the access. They were very quick to defend Richard, who turned out to have the information they denied, and their RVs seemed higher than average.

Nice comment, but nope. Are you just jealous of everyone around here? You are just aimlessly accusing people around here. You might wanna get your facts straight first, buddy. We love Richard's posts around here and his thoughts about the movers.

The higher than average thing? First of all, I'd like to say that "we" are proabably better than "average".

Oh, and nice post in the strategy thread that I made, I'm happy that you're jealous.

smallwhirled

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:10

bili! Don't distract me from my rage! Ha! Yes, you bring us back to the bigger picture. Thank you. I am so disgusted right now ...

But then again, I at least got Fleury in our Yahoo! league!

cheers,
- walk

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:17

Smallwhirled - Take it easy, the post in the other thread was a joke. Ha Ha. When was humor outlawed? You did a great job in baseball and deserve to be congratulated. Now....put the knife down.

Jealous? Not quite. I'm doing as well as I expected to do. If you beat me on a level playing field I'll congratulate you.

ukula

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:20

walk - Three words: Anger Management Classes.

BTW I'm breathing down your neck in the ESDNHL division. At least we now have a mini-rivalry since Dan is running away with it. Bring it On!

smallwhirled
Donor
ID: 17152614
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:22

Ukula,

sorry, it was a crap post. I just didn't like the fact that accusations were made and all about RV and cheating. You might as well just use my team as an example instead of walk's and Rogue's because I'm over 61 and started a week late.

How is it done? The trade buffer. You never get stuck at the end of the week, and you take advantage of light trading days. Add in a few ideas from AIM, and anyone could have that type of RV. But the game is about points, and I'm not doing so well there.

I make some crap posts sometimes, sorry...

smallwhirled

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:27

smallwhirled - No problem. I make many crap posts myself as you can see. In fact, I'm full of it half the time.

AIM?

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:27

I have to point out that it's not a joke when other people don't know that you were joking. For example, you can't just go around insulting everybody and then expect to get out of it by saying "I was just joking." To an outsider like me, there does seem to be some hostility here, Ukula, no matter how you deny it. If you really don't mean it, then perhaps you should say things in a different way so that people won't continue to misunderstand your "jokes" as insults.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:29

ukula -- social skills training

Yeah, I do look forward to having a rivalry with you. It'll be fun. Both of my teams are about the same now, ranked 400 or so. Disappointing, but ahead of schedule since I usually start off poorly and come on late. Last year I finished 26th and first in the gurupie standings. Of course, I cheated my way to the top!

;-)
walk

Richard
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:30

biliruben - now you've put me on the horns of a dilemma. I would like TSN to level the playing by allowing everyone access to current live roster information but you are saying I have a moral responsibility to help them close a security loophole that allows some folks to access current live rosters.

I'm not sure I want to help TSN to deny access to information that I think everyone should have. Over the past few years TSN/SW hasn't stopped current roster sampling. I know I'm not the only one who could do it. Perhaps it is time for TSN to rethink - since they are ineffective in denying access maybe they should level the playing field by giving everyone access.

Just some random thoughts while I work thru the moral dilemma you have highlighted.

Richard

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:32

Alright - since everyone is apologizing I might as well, too. Here goes...

To anyone that I've offended in this post:

I..I...I...I'm S....S....Sorry.

walk - I hope I caught you before you returned my Christmas present.

Wow - This thread might even turn from a angry, hostile environment to a good old fashioned LoveFest! That'd be cool!

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:34

walk - Re: Post 56 - LOL Touche!

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 327481911
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:36

ukula, again, you've missed the point. The point is that large scale roster sampling only shows who the masses are adding/dropping, which is something that can easily been deduced through other methods, likely in less time than it takes to sample enough rosters to back up any self-made predictions you have.

Viewing individual rosters in your division allows you to make distinct moves that may not even be close to what the masses are doing in order to differentiate or match the players in your division in order to move up to or maintain the lead in the division.

If you can't see the difference between the two, then it's really not worth discussing any further, but there IS a distinct difference in advantage gained.

Richard
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:39

ukula - it's this type of thread that I've missed recently. When I first discovered TSN/SW sports and rotoguru.com there seemed to be more threads like this one. Where we could get passionate about strategies, ideas, causes and even morals. We could even agree to disagree. It warms my heart and livens this Friday morning to see the passion, on both sides of the issue, come out from both long term rotoguru.com folks and relatively new folks.

It reminds me of why I like this place. Thanks Guru for your message board.

Richard

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:41

KKB - I agree totally. I think we're arguing the same point. If you can sample 1000 teams then you have the ability to sample just your divisional opponents. Correct? Sampling 1000 teams may not be a benefit, but sampling your division probably will be. Either way the ability to sample current rosters is the issue.

ukula
Donor
ID: 15118610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:45

I'm going to lunch. All of this anger and bitterness has made me hungry.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:47

There we go ukula, there we go! Taken the high road! Thanks man. I KNEW you would come around. You see my anger management is already working!

We do have a regular infectious, incestuous community here where we would prefer to be ammicable than to be adversarial. Friendly competition is always invited though!

Richard, agreed on post $61 (for the most part). ukula, check out KKB in post #60, he is very knowledgeable about the tech aspects of the game.

- walk

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 327481911
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 12:55

By the way, my Price Movers predictions show that I'm not playing the TSN game. ;)

Imfubar
ID: 599391610
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 13:18

Been lurking here for a couple of years and posting occasionally (sp). I have terrible points and RV. What I have learned from this board is that this game is like anything else in life...you get out of it what you put into it. I don't spend or put in nearly the time or energy to do well in this game and it shows. I coach hockey, football and wresting for kids and my kids and teams have performed as well as their work ethic and my limited skills as a coach have taken them. I have no problem with Richard or any one else finding out (and doing what they will with it) any and all information that they can get, shared or not. Most of us play this and all games like we do golf... you play with in the rules and compete against YOURSELF. Knowing the rules in golf can mean the differance in 2 or 3 strokes in any round. Does that mean because I know that I get a free drop and do so and some one else does not I am cheating..I don't think so. IT IS ALL PART OF THE GAME You play this game for fun and compete against yourself. OK I'm getting off my soap box.

Imfubar

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 13:26

Since I like ethical dilemmas, I'll toss in my totally unrequested opinion on this one (57). They have asked whether there is a way to view unfrozen rosters, and you, Richard, have told them that there is (I guess you should respond to Bernie's post directly). I think that ends your responsibility in this matter. I don't think you are ethically obliged to tell them what it is if you don't wish to, unless they propose to hire you as a security consultant. You are ethically obliged to use the knowledge irresponsibly, e.g. not to shadow division rivals' moves, but not to divulge exactly how you do what you do. Whether you should do so or not is also an interesting question but outside the sphere of ethics. Among the considerations -- is it likely that other people do it exactly the same way you do? Might they close the loophole you use but leave many others open?

TSN is in a bit of a jam now too, IMO, now that we're in Ultimate games and $$$ is involved -- many division races could be affected by the possibility of shadowing moves. I think they have an obligation to tell everybody in all their games that they have good reason to believe that others may view their rosters although they are not supposed to. Otherwise many 2nd-place division finishers (just to name an obvious example) may be demanding their money back come end of season. One possibility is to make all rosters viewable. Another short-term stopgap is to institute a rule against looking at others' rosters even if you find a way to do so. This stopgap would just drive the whole thing underground, but it would establish a policy in the matter.

Hmm, good mental exercise.

Toral

Richard
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 14:08

Toral - thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Your thinking is paralleling my thoughts. I'm glad we gave you a good mental exercise;-)

Richard

Richard
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 14:35

Bernie H. - re #19. Unfortunately there are still loopholes in the TSN security that allows managers to see current rosters. This ability has been around for many years and the knowledge is out there. There are ways to see current (unfrozen) rosters in all of your active Ultimate games. This past year, I could, and still can, see current active rosters in the baseball game, the golf game, the football game and the hockey game we are discussing today.

Since others, besides myself, know how to do it, I think that you should give everyone the ability to do it by showing the current roster when we look at other manager's rosters. Otherwise, we are competing on an unlevel playing field where some folks know how to do this and others don't.

Since TSN has demonstrated an inability to secure this type of information, I'm reluctant to share the specific details with you for fear of losing my ability to see current rosters while other managers retain their ability to see my current rosters.

Richard

Dec
ID: 29107410
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 14:43

Agree 100% with you Richard, you don't have to give your secret.

Let Bernie fax TSN legal dept. and he should get an answer in 2-3 months.

walk
Leader
ID: 214581016
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 14:52

This thread has now turned back to a very interesting mental/ethical/fantasy exercise. Almost a boundary spanner with the Politics forum! I'll have to email Perm Dude and let him as I am sure he would want to read what is going on here.

- walk

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 14:57

Fair enough. Fairer that Fleury theft, any rate. ;)

Bernie H.
ID: 33703110
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 17:10

The plot thickens.

It's news to me that we still have such loopholes. Long time Gurupies might recall that we closed all that we knew of a year or two ago, and I believe Richard himself acknowledged that we had thwarted his system (I could be wrong).

Obviously, we didn't get them all. I would indeed like them all closed. Richard, I would like you to reveal your secret, but I can't make you. So we'll make it a little fox hunt. We are going to do all we can to make sure current-roster sampling is impossible. In the spirit of sportsmanship, would you at least acknowledge when we have finally closed the last loophole you know of?

And psst... any other of you who know Richard's secret - I'm not above accepting help... ;)

Bernie

Teddybears
Donor
ID: 210492212
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 17:12

I'm against to giving everyone the ability to view current rosters.
The effect will be that most managers will wait until the last minute to make trades,
not to reveal their moves.
And how will the server cope with mass-trading before the deadline?
It will turn into a waiting game, the closer to the end of the season we get.
It adds a spice to the game, but I find it more frustrating than interesting.
Better to fix the loophole before it does any more harm.
If TSN just made an effort, I'm sure that they will find it.

C.SuperFreaks
ID: 549471213
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 17:57

Someone help me out here because I'm a little confused. So if I understand this correctly.

If I made a trade in the next 5 minutes the loophole allows everyone to be able to see the players that I have just purchased/traded for? (which we would all be able to see tomorrow after the freeze)

Greenbelt
ID: 31111168
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 17:57

I remember that clearly. I also remember that that was how I got into the bad habbit of waiting 'till the final bell to pull-off a trade. Some scabs in my auto division were peaking, so I engaged them into a game of "BLINK!" ( ..that skill later came in handy for sniping eBay auctions! ;-} )

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 351131521
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 18:13

I disagree with Toral. For years, Richard has done all he had to enhance his, and others, game experience, first with Smallworld, and now TSN. If asked by TSN to help close a loophole which gives an uneven playing field, I believe his public support for game enjoyment enhancement puts him in a position to reveal the information, privately, to TSN.

If he were hired by TSN in some consultation capacity his obligation would be more clear, but his lack of a formal employment arrangement with TSN does not wipe clean his obligation to reveal what he knows will make the game more enjoyable.

Put another way, to go and put in many hours of non-paid work in order to help others on this game but stop short revealing what is clearly a competitive advantage for some playing the game because of a lack of formal arrangement between him and TSN implies that such formality is necessary to reveal the details of security bugs in their software. In a paid fantasy game this only succeeds in allowing those with sufficient skill and expertise in a non-fantasy sports area to gain a significant advantage in the game.

To not reveal the information continues an already non-level playing field.

While there is some question as to whether managers should see others' non-frozen rosters, it is clear that TSN, in this game, have done what they can to have managers see only frozen rosters, and to withhold information about how some have viewed non-frozen rosters in the hopes that TSN will allow everyone to view non-frozen rosters is holding them hostage (though on a small point).

pd

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 18:17

Just think how this thread would have gone if it was placed on the basketball forum.

Shudder...

Richard
Leader
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 18:51

Darn it Perm Dude I was just getting comfortable with the position I'm taking of letting TSN know that there is at least one security hole and now you raise the bar on where I should be on this. You are right and your statements resonate with my inner voice. I'm sure I'll regret this since roster sampling is kind of fun and gives me some level of extra enjoyment when playing TSN sports. I'm going to miss having a peak at who is being bought and who is being sold, not for any competitive advantage it might bring me personally - that's not why I play the game, but because it's been fun and challenging to stretch my computer abilities and do something that not too many folks know how to do. Heck even if I told folks exactly how I do it, not many around here could do it.

With that preamble - here's the url I use to see current (non-frozen rosters):

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/hockey/fullseason/ultimate/game/buy_sell.html?user_id=3115

(just put this address in your browser replacing the 3115 with the team id # you are interested in seeing. In the spirit of I'll show you mine since you show me yours, the team id listed will let you see the current roster of one of my teams - the Foxglove Hunters)

Bernie - fix it fast and level the playing field.

Richard

Dan
Sustainer
ID: 0229323
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 18:53

Richard...ugh....it's for the best I think.

Dan
Sustainer
ID: 0229323
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 18:54

The backdoor used to be, changing "frozen_roster" to "manager_other" but they got rid of that but still left the option by changing it to "buy_sell" hopefully this does get resolved.

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 18:57

Thanks, Richard. I feel for you, giving up your baby, and some of your enjoyment, for the good of the game.

If it makes you feel better, I will always think of you as the god of repricing.

Now doesn't that feel better! ;)

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 351131521
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:00

bili, that would be God of Repricing, I believe.

Richard, I nominate you for Guru, Jr.

pd

Teddybears
Donor
ID: 210492212
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:08

How many managers knew of this?
I guess we'll never know.

walk
Leader
ID: 410551120
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:38

No, it was and is the Lord of the Repricing. I have a lot of respect for Richard and his skills, information sharing and constant source of level-headed and balanced posting over the years. Now he has taken a path that involved a degree of personal compromise, for the greater good. Good show, man! I'll be gassing up at Chevron going forward (when I rent my cars!).

- walk

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:41

[Raises his hand] I knew.

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:42

Richard I commend you for revealing your secret for the good of the game. It seems Dan knew of this as well. I wonder how many others. Ok boys, lets get back to the game and see who wins.

For the rest of you don't forget that if it wasn't for me stirring up the hornet's nest and ruffling so many feathers this never would have been brought out in the daylight. This was my goal all along - to close up this window for the good of the game.

Mission accomplished (I hope).

ukula

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:43

RE #75, the URL Richard provided in #79 lets you see anybody's current roster as of the second you view it. Any trades made, even after the freeze, would be able to be viewed through that URL, so you are seeing the same exact "live" roster that the user would see if they logged into and viewed their own team.

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:43

I knew back when I cared. I haven't managed to convince myself to pay to play, so I obviously wouldn't keep up with the back-door addys.

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:46

ukula, don't get all high and mighty. It wasn't your methods that brought about resolution. If you look back at #79, you'll see that Richard directly responds to Perm Dude. As a matter of fact, the whole "issue" was brought to light by Richard himself in post #5, not by you. All you did was debate whether it was fair or not. Don't forget that.

walk
Leader
ID: 410551120
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:47

ukula's need for recognition. Ask you shall not receive young man.

;-)
walk

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:47

Don't strain any ligaments patting yourself on the back.

Rogue Nine
ID: 44111615
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:51

Am I still under suspicion for cheating? Just curious. ;)

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:57

ukula lights the match and the cockroaches go scurrying to the shadows.

At least I had the sack to challenge the masses who were reluctant to reveal their secrets. It was ukula against the world. I SHOCKED THE WORLD.
You're all bitter. I won. My goal was achieved.

That is enough for me. No need for accolades.

ukula

Teddybears
Donor
ID: 210492212
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 19:58

Why not go all the way, and not show current roster value and trades left?
Only frozen information should be able to be viewed.

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:02

I'm suddenly reminded of something that stinkypuff posted in this thread in the Baseball Forum:

Uvula: Thing that hangs in the back of your mouth serving no apparent purpose.

Ukula: Thing that hangs around the message boards serving no apparent purpose.

Richard
Leader
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:06

Teddybears - why show anything but total points achieved by the other managers?

Richard

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:08

KKB - Funny stuff. Too bad you didn't think of it yourself.

Sure I have a purpose on these boards.....

STRIKE THE MATCH!

ukula

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 351131521
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:12

All the accolades should go to Richard. I advocated privately revealing the information, but he went and put it out here, a job above and beyond. Clapclapclap, buddy.

Sorry, U. While you had me on your side the first couple of posts, to turn combative is not the same as continuing to put forth an argument. Indeed, your posts after #15, IMO, made it less likely for this problem to be solved. You continued to get in the way of your own goal, post after post (much like a Blue Jacket defender, I might add).

pd

100

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:12

You're right, however I, unlike you, didn't claim responsibility for something I have no responsibility for. You'll see that I actually bolded the name of the originator.

"Strike the match?" With the stuff you're spouting off, I wouldn't recommend getting any matches near it.

101

Richard
Leader
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:17

You don't have a clue do you, ukula

Richard

102

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:20

I tipped off Erick and Bernie to this whole thread. The more I spouted off the more you guys tangled yourself in your own web of lies. Don't blame me. You did it to yourself. It was all part of my master plan and you all played a part much like the puppeteer controls the puppets. Thanks for your doing your part.

ukula

103

KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 266182910
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:23

Yeah, I'm sure the "ATTN TSN: Do you have a problem?" thread title, created by Wian had absolutely no part in Erik or Bernie finding this thread. It was surely all your doing, ukula. How in the world would they have ever found this thread without your tip?

You're really making quite a fool of yourself ukula.

104

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 5310281417
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:42

Ukula The Mockery (actually Ookla the Mok)

I used to love this show. Really.

105

Toral
Sustainer
ID: 2111201313
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 20:49

Richard An act of superorgation. Very commendable. I just hope you did it because it was what you thought was right and not because you were hornswoggled into it by that casuist PermDude. ;)

Toral

106

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 351131521
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 21:00

Toral just can't get his head around the idea of an "Ethical Clinton Supporter"

:)

107

Chitown
ID: 4894520
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 21:11

After reading a lot of the posts I have this to say. If the teams in the NHL know what players each have then why should'nt we.

Richard you did the right thing, was that all of them? :)

108

Richard
Leader
ID: 5410352713
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 21:14

Chitown - I bared all I know. That was the only way I'd found to see current roster info. Others smarter than I might know other ways.

Richard

109

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 21:41

You see the first part of investigative work is to elicit emotion which was achieved by yours truly. I prefer to call it "stirring up the hornet's nest". After that it was pretty simple actually. You guys spun a web that you couldn't work your way out of. In the classic Good Cop/Bad Cop I played the part of the Bad Cop. I obtained Richard's confession in a different thread and the rest of you collapsed like a house of cards. Bernie came in to pick up the pieces near the end. Your anger and resentment toward me stems from the realization that you had been conned. Your embarrassment reveals itself in anger as a sort of defense mechanism.

ukula (Roto Con Man) 1
Good Ol' Boy Gurupie Network 0

ukula

In Search of Truth and Justice

110

Twarpy
Leader
ID: 17103822
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 21:59

Ukula, congrats job well done, it seems you're more happy that you ruined a good thing in what Richard does.

Him and other gurupies for year have always been the first to answer when anyone asks approximately how owned is a player. At the beginning of the year they share all their info on who is most heavily drafted before the start of the year.

I know a lot of gurupies knew about it, but the only way I can see it being used to a huge advantage is if and when you're in first place and you're just copying the other teams, which to my knowledge has never been done before.

I find it ironic that Richard actually was sharing this information with everyone and you feel that you've won a huge battle for yourself and many other people who didn't know.

FWIW I haven't even used it once since knowing about (3 years) if you actually wanted to see who a person has on their team before the freeze all you have to do is look at their Roster Value before and after, and see oh they used one trade and see what adds up.

Thanks Richard for all you've done.

111

Puckprophet @shop1
ID: 91114621
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 22:24

this is all getting stupid, people...

112

Bernie H.
ID: 33703110
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 23:20

Thanks, Richard. For what it's worth, we found it ourselves pretty quickly after we started looking. I can't believe we let that one go for so long.

113

dollarbill
ID: 151150621
Fri, Dec 06, 2002, 23:29

You know, I got so burned out on playing any fantasy sports last season that I have just taken the last few months off and have played very little of the TSN sports. I do know, however, that in the past, I have used the wisdom gained from many of the posts that Richard and many of the rest of you have made to make me a better fantasy player. Thank you all very much.

One other thing I learned a long time ago, sometimes it's better to keep your thoughts to yourself lest everyone really find out how dumb you are.

Ukula, grow up!!!

114

Taxman
Leader
ID: 271025153
Sat, Dec 07, 2002, 14:19

Ukula could be substituted for Ira in the trade proferred to the bball boards by our resident Penguin person. At least Ukula would understand why he is being traded.

Walk, I am disappointed to find out you are not cheating, I was so hoping that you were just not smarter than the rest of us.

Attaboy Richard...thanx for your many gifts/insights etc over the years

Thread of the season award

115

walk
Leader
ID: 410551120
Sat, Dec 07, 2002, 20:22

flattery will get you everywhere, taxman!

- walk

116

Die_Habs
ID: 351059221
Sun, Dec 08, 2002, 02:34

Ukoula writes "You see the first part of investigative work is to elicit emotion which was achieved by yours truly. I prefer to call it "stirring up the hornet's nest". After that it was pretty simple actually. You guys spun a web that you couldn't work your way out of. In the classic Good Cop/Bad Cop I played the part of the Bad Cop. I obtained Richard's confession in a different thread and the rest of you collapsed like a house of cards. Bernie came in to pick up the pieces near the end. Your anger and resentment toward me stems from the realization that you had been conned. Your embarrassment reveals itself in anger as a sort of defense mechanism.

ukula (Roto Con Man) 1
Good Ol' Boy Gurupie Network 0

ukula

In Search of Truth and Justice"

----> Didn't he write somewhere about someone with A LOT of times on their hands. I would go back and quote it like justice boy but I am to lazy :)

117

Taxman
Leader
ID: 271025153
Sun, Dec 08, 2002, 09:36

Walk, a mere token of what I think about Dan, the man with the see thru balls(are they crystal):>)

118

Canadian Striker
ID: 431110814
Sun, Dec 08, 2002, 15:20

This is why I stopped playing TSNFH. Too many people taking advantage of loopholes, and don't even try to tell me that knowing who other people have on their rosters isn't an advantage. I probably won't check this board for another week or so anyway, so if you do reply I probably won't see it. Keeping up with trades and that is just way to time consuming for me to continue doing anyway. Now I just watch games, and cheer for the teams I actually want to win. No more of this ohh I want Vancouver to win but I have Roy on my fantasy team, so lets go Avs... lol.
Peace out, hope everyone has a good holiday break.

119

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Sun, Dec 08, 2002, 22:56

It must be getting late. I thought I just read a post where someone actually agreed with me. I must be seeing things - it just can't be. I need some sleep.

ukula

in the absence of light, there is darkness.

120

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 01:09

This reminds me that Al Gore invented the internet. You all know that, don't you.

121

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 06:23

A man comes home late from work reeking of perfume. His wife asks him if he is having an affair. "Of course not!" said the man. "I was just over my 28 year old secretary's apartment watching TV". "You're having an affair?" asks the wife. "No, we just watch TV, we've been doing this for three years!".

Upset, the wife calls one of the husbands friends. "Can you believe this?" asks the wife. "Don't give him such a hard time, you don't realize how good he treats that girl. So he spends time with her, that doesn't mean he doesn't love you. In fact, he says that time with her doesn't fulfill him like time spent with you. I can't believe you're giving him such a hard time" says the husband's friend.

122

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 06:25

"You ruthless b*tch! You ought to be ashamed of yourself for even questioning him!" add the friend.

123

Rogue Nine
ID: 44111615
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 06:30

Booooooooooooooooooooo. How lame.

Rogue

in the absence of intelligence, there is stupidity.

124

ukula
Donor
ID: 383222
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 06:43

The husband's friend continues - "He is such a wonderful guy. He buys her presents and even gives her kids money for school. Thanks for ruining a good thing......B*TCH!"

In the absence of current roster sampling there is decreased Roster Value.

125

The Left Wings
ID: 1668298
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 06:51

Man... You guys... I don't know what else to say, other than I couldn't care less what others have on their rosters, as long as I know the general trend, which is not hard to figure out using your own experience.

In the absence of good posts, there are bad posts.

126

Taxman
Leader
ID: 271025153
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 08:30

Let me see if I can get all this squeeling square. Uvuala, in ESDNHL Div., today, Walk in 9th has $59,200 and you in 10th have $58,810 and I am 11th with $56,140. So who among us is a cheat, and why does it make a a difference again.

Absence of respect for fellow man is lonlyliness. A tough pill to choke on during the hollidays.

127

ukula
Donor
ID: 15112796
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 08:46

Taxman - I wasn't accusing anyone of cheating in my lost posts. I was just sharing a 'feel-good' Holiday story with the boys on the rotoguru.com message board. For the sake of everyone on these boards please try to control your anger/bitterness/resentment during the holiday season. Happy Holidays!

ukula

The courage to stand alone.

128

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 10:20

For some strange reason, I am compelled to post this:

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."

Dan Quayle

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is." (Sorry, thats another Quayle quote.)

129

Rogue Nine
ID: 44111615
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 11:40

"Anyone who still believes that these guys are playing by the rules also believe that the crash at Roswell was a weather balloon, Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, we actually landed on the moon, and Britney Spears is a virgin.

This is BS."

Right, no accusations of cheating. You just accused us of not playing by the rules. Which is a completely different thing. Right? Wrong? (The answer is WRONG, nitwit.)

Stinkypuff said it best:
Uvula: Thing that hangs in the back of your mouth serving no apparent purpose.
Ukula: Thing that hangs around the message boards serving no apparent purpose.

Now go away.

130

B-TRAIN
ID: 111112213
Mon, Dec 09, 2002, 15:24

Word!

Forum: hockPage 4877Subject: ATTN TSN: Do you have a problem?

Forum: hock
Page 4877
Subject: ATTN TSN: Do you have a problem?