Self Editor

Forum: hoop
Page 7994
Subject: Ref & rfs' 20 team Yahoo League discussion

Posted by: rockafellerskank - Sustainer [337443111] Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 12:15

To those of you who have received invitations via e-mail or AIM from me or Ref, here is the discussion thread for our upcoming league.....

First thing you should do is reply to the e-mail and express your interest as a "yes" or a "no"

There may be more than 20 responses from owners that want in [I invited much more thn 20]. If so, Ref and I will determine the participants based on your reputation as a Gurupie, previous finishes, Guru Patron status, and our gerneral personal opinion.

I hope to have all participants signed in and rules finalized by 10/18/02, so speak up if you want your $0.02 heard!

A few points:

1) Everything in league settings is still negotiable.
2) The difference in this league and others is the depth (20 teams). As you make comments, please keep in mind how your proposal(s) might affect a league like this. [IE starting 3 Centers would be an unrealistic request!]
3) The league settings below are just off the cuff. Specifically the topics that I would like input on are:

H2H VS rotisserie scoring?
daily moves or weekly moves?
voluntary prize pool paid to winners?
waiver time frame?
trade deadline date?
scoring categories.. too many?
draft date? time?
Roster size and positions?

League Settings
League ID#: 1213
Password: *********
Season: Full Season
Draft Type: Live
Draft Time: Saturday, October 26 at 1:40 pm MDT
Draft Status: predraft
Maximum Number of Teams: 20
Maximum Players on a Team: 12
Maximum Moves: No maximum
Maximum Trades: No maximum
Scoring Type: Head-to-Head League
Waiver Time: 1 days
Last Trade Date: Thursday, February 20
Trade Reject Time: 2 days
Roster Changes: Weekly on Monday
Starting Positions: G, G, F, F, C, Util, Util, IL
Statistical Categories: Field Goals Made
Field Goal Percentage
Free Throws Made
Free Throw Percentage
3-point Shots Made
Points Scored
Offensive Rebounds
Total Rebounds
Assists
Steals
Blocked Shots
Turnovers

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 12:30

I am not sure if I received an invite, since it would have been at my home e-mail address, and I'm not there. Regardless my 2 cents (lol):

H2H VS rotisserie scoring? Rotisserie. Long season where I like the cumulative point system (a la my preference in baseball). H2H is perfect for football, IMHO.

daily moves or weekly moves? daily moves, no limit, which fits the rotisserie scoring better, IMHO.
voluntary prize pool paid to winners? Doesn't matter, as I don't play for the green anyway.
waiver time frame? 1 day, which amounts to close to 2 days anyway, but not close to 3 days like a 2 day period does.
trade deadline date? March 6. Trading is fun, trading is fun, trading is fun. Adds 2 weeks to the default deadline, and gives players a better chance to analyze which trends need to be reversed. The 2/21 date is premature, IMHO.
scoring categories.. too many? I prefer the default categories MINUS turnovers. Not a big fan of the negative one. Though Shaq's free throw percentage can be a negative. (lol)
draft date? time? Anytime after 9:30pm eastern, any week night, preferably Monday through Thursday.
Roster size and positions? Default are fine with me, especially if a 20 team league. Adding to the roster size would only further dilute available talent. If people want to add, maximum I'd hope for is adding 1 bench spot.

PS: RFS is my Hero!

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 13:12

Mike D, you are on the e-mail list.

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 13:22

My general thoughts

I prefer roto--football is the only league I've ever played H2H

Stats, the only reason I like TOs is because those mainly come from people that handle the ball a lot and do well in other categories--kind of a dampening effect on that player. I've NEVER played with Off. Rbs. Do we need them? I can live with any of the stats, but I've always had Pts rather than FGM and FTM. I love FG& FT missed though I've never played with that stat either.

I like late trade deadlines. I've found that some people lose interest after the trade deadline.

RFS and I have been talking about this ever since we got our 24 team football league up and that has been a blast. It is filled with parity and you use players that you would have never thought about using because of the depth of the league. It has some strategy that I've never had to use before--esp. with those dreaded bye weeks and in hoops the scheduling should do the same.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 13:42

Ref, thanks for the heads up! Regarding the stats, I said "default minus turnovers." I guess I should list what is left:

Field Goal Percentage
Free Throw Percentage
3-point Shots Made
Points Scored
Total Rebounds
Assists
Steals
Blocked Shots

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 14:05

One last point, I hope to have at least 50% Guru Patrons to conform to the requirements for a Guru Prize

blue hen, almighty
ID: 473133021
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 17:41

Wholeheartedly agree with Mike D's categories - default minus turnovers. I have serious issues with anything short of that. Pretend I posted a long message, but I won't because I assume you agree.

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 18:06

My team is always bad in turnovers anyhow, so if that is a sticking point, I'm certainly happy to oblige the league. RFS and I are not married to anything thus far. That's why we posted here for discussion.

RFS sent out the e-mails and he told me a few minutes ago, that within a couple hours of the e-mails we had 12 people that replied with a yes. That's encouraging.

As far as prize money goes--it's whatever the league wants. In our 24 team football league, the prize participation was optional and 22 of the 24 participated. I also made it that any of the 8 that made it to the playoffs would at least get their money back. In other words, we cut down the pools so more people could win. Also they only put in $15. I'm surprised RFS is still around since he's the one holding the money ;) Also, RFS will send out a trophy/plaque to the winner.

IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 19:44

if someone gives up i would be honored to be part of it......my e-mail is linked.

YOUNGBUCK
ID: 38941920
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 20:52

can I join please. selamk206@yahoo.com

ahsbball05
ID: 5010122114
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 21:59

I would also like to join! Please email me at armstrongrocks@juno.com ALSO I have AIM and my screename is AHSbball05

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 23:05

Wow! I have 16 "yes" responses to the e-mails I sent out. It reads like a who's who list of long time Gurupies! If you received an invitation and are on the fence about joining ..... better decide soon!

We'll be discussing and finishing the rules/parameters here and then I'll e-mail everyone the league password at the same time.

I want everyone to see the finished product before getting on the site. Such things as draft date and rules might cause some to change their mind.

Keep giving your input.......

CanEHdian Pride
Donor
ID: 48936413
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 23:42

Can't get onto my email service but I'm good to go.

beebop
ID: 3392222
Wed, Oct 09, 2002, 23:55

I like the stat categories. Different to alot of other leagues. Im easily pleased with the categories, its all good.

skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 40625911
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 00:02

My input: I usually play H2H in Football only, but I would be open to H2H with weekly roster moves. Since Smallworld/TSN Hoops generally requires daily checking in, it would be nice to not have to check in for a week. Since I assume most will go the Roto route, that's fine as well. The most common Roto league format I've played is the 8 category positive stats: FG%, FT%, 3PM, TReb, AST, STL, BLK, PTS. I don't like the turnover category, but maybe splitting the Reb category into Offesive and total rebounds would be interesting. Could we add a category for most imaginary charges drawn? I would definitely pick Divac up if we do!!

Positional requirements I like to have a standard starting five PG, SG, SF, PF, C with combo slots like G, F and a Util. That would give 8 starting slots and then have 1 or 2 IL spots and a bench of 4-5 players. With a 20 team league though, I imagine we would need to limit things more so the default probably would work fine. I figure only about 250 players in the NBA play 12 minutes or more a game and I would hate to have to watch to see if some scrub played the last two minutes of the game just to get a few measly points.

I prefer to have a later trade deadline maybe up until a month before the season ends. I would definitely not be able to do a live draft on Sat 10/26 as I'll be out of town without any connections. Fri 10/25 would work okay and I would prefer a late draft such as 9PM PT.

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 01:00

I replied yes to you.

What I would like to see is roto. 8 categories (FG%, FT%, 3PM, TReb, AST, STL, BLK, PTS). Maybe consider splitting rebs into offensive and total. No on turnovers. Weekly roster changes beginning Mondays. 7 starters per week. With 20 teams, there just won't be enough depth to play 8 guys.

As for the draft, I'm available Saturday thru Wednesday at 6:15 PM Pacific time. All day Thursday or Friday.

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 39143521
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 01:19

I guess, I should let everyone (other than commish) know I'm in the league.

I would prefer roto scoring rather than H2H.

Best Draft Times
Friday (late)
Saturday (late night) some afternoons
Sunday (all day)
Monday - Friday evening are not good

I'll be back this weekend, with my input on roster size & scoring categories, no time right now.

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 16:03

Is this going to be a keeper league?

Ref
ID: 28045169
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 16:32

bmd, yes, that's what we are proposing at this point.

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 16:37

That's what I figured, didn't see any mention of it so thought I would ask. I already gave a "yes" so I guess I need to start doing some research.

Kings Fan
ID: 57956310
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 17:26

Anyone have any suggestions for getting around the firewall issue for those of us at work? I'd like to participate in draft during the day, but I've also got firewall issues. Are there any "general" settings that can be made to bypass the firewalls?

Ref
ID: 28045169
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 17:41

With so many people, picking a time that works for everyone will be impossible, therefore, we have to go what works best for the majority and everyone else rank their players! Actually, you should rank your players anyhow.

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 18:20

Ahh, a keeper league. Even that much better!

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 20:00

Kings Fan, not unless you can manipulate the firewall, which you probably can't do.

Ref
ID: 121135289
Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 20:49

We now have over 20 people that have responded as "YES". If ther are any others that want to be considered, please do so immediately. Also, if any players are having second thoughts--email those thoughts to RFS.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 09:38

Keep the suggesstions coming.

I plan to have final rules done by 10/14/02 now.
Paswords will go out on 10/15/02 from the list of all "yes" responses.

There are over 20 responses so far from the original invitation list, Ref and I are going to have to say "no" to a few people. Sorry in advance, everyone we invited is a great owner, but the resonse is much greater than we had thought.

rfs ®

Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 11:13

RFS types about as well as I do--but you get the context. We want to make sure that everyone responds before we are forced to pick 20 and two people still haven't responded. Unfortunately, we are going to have to assume a "no" from them if we don't hear back shortly. Please keep the suggestions coming as we will try to hash the rules out over the weekend. If there are issues we may send e-mails or posts out to get a league vote. No matter what we will post the rules and allow feedback and discussion before they become final.

The Bandwagon
ID: 139211118
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 18:47

Hi guys! I've played in this type of league for a few years now, and no disrespect to TSN, but H2H by far blows away roto style scoring. I am a commish for a hoops full keeper league with my friends, and let me tell you, if you love competiton, and strategy, a H2H keeper league is the way to go.

With a 20 team H2H league, you will have the excitement of challenging for one of the 8 or 10 playoffs spots. Just imagine if you're the #9 or #10 seed with 2 weeks to go, and you have 3 teams within 4 games of you. The rush, the thrill battling it out and trying to hang on to a playoff spot! Absolutely nothing like it in fantasy sports!

In my experience, I would definately vote for a full keeper league. With 20 teams, 12 players per team, you'd definately have a player or 2 you'd drop to draft 1 0r 2 of the next seasons rookies. Plus in a full keeper league, It would add to the strategy of a manager. Does he want to win now with Stockton,Malone, and pay for it 2-3 years down the road, or does he build for the future with Ricky Davis/Kirlinko, and suffer now with hope for the future?

I would definately vote for daily roster changes vs Weekly. To me, weekly brings luck into the picture (Injuries)! 90% of the time, you start your best players for the week, leaving your other drafted players on the pine making no impact for your team! To me, this makes the later part of the draft almost useless.

With daily changes, you are forced to play every player you drafted, usually resulting in the best team wins.

I love the catagories you listed:

Field Goals Made
Field Goal Percentage
Free Throws Made
Free Throw Percentage
3-point Shots Made
Points Scored
Offensive Rebounds
Total Rebounds
Assists
Steals
Blocked Shots
Turnovers

In my experience, the more, the better!

I would also vote for starting a PG, SG, SF, PF, C and 1 utility. Doing it this way changes your draft strategy, plus it makes the versatile players more valuable.

The Bandwagon
ID: 139211118
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 20:27

After thinking on this over dinner, the original setup of G,G,F,F,C, 1 Utility would be better than what I mentioned above. This setup would allow you to be more versatile in the draft. My way would've made you draft 2 of each postion.

Ref
ID: 121135289
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 20:34

bw, rfs and myself spent a lot of time talking this over this afternoon and bw made some excellent points. Again, the only thing we're married to is the 20 team makeup. RFS and I want this league to be unique, yet fun and challenging. I'd rather finish middle of the pack in a league like this then dominate an otherwise weak league. So if enough people want to do the league a certain way we will certainly give them strong consideration.

Ref
ID: 121135289
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 20:47

Some of the points from bw for instance in our chat...In H2H, 8 teams make the playoffs, 9-16 play in a NIT type tourney. 1-8 seed could win the title, whoevers team is peaking wins, just like the real thing...in roto, you have 1 winner, and he could pull away by mid season, the rest of the season would be BORING for the rest of the managers...

RFS is leaning toward weekly changes, BW wants daily changes. I've never done H2H hoops before so I'm kinda on the fence though weekly and daily both have their merits.

rockfish
ID: 531038288
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 21:08

can you guys take this to the standings forum. not sure but other games are so for this sort of meandering thread. :/

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 21:10

They certainly do all have their merits.

Might want to just declare what the league will be, since that in and of itself will possibly weed people out. For example, some people may be much more into the rotisserie/daily, or the rotisserie/weekly, or a H2H version. That in and of itself may be the determining factor for who plays.

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 21:37

I'd be hip for H2H instead of roto. My vote is still for weekly changes.

I also agree with Bw in #28. G,G,F,F,C ... instead of PG,SG,SF,PF,C.

Question on the keeper aspect ...
-When next season comes around, how many players are we able to keep? Is there any sort of time maximum (3 years)?

IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 21:50

did you consider me in?
i didn't receive any e-mail and i was the first to ask to join if someone would have declined.....
so? in or out?

Ref
ID: 121135289
Fri, Oct 11, 2002, 22:09

Lazio, even though there are still over 20 people that say they want in, more than one have backed out today alone. Once we post the rules (hopefully as early as tomorrow), others may decline to play as well. But as of now, we unfortunately do not have a spot for you. We will form a waiting list if the league in fact stays full.

skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 34916121
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 01:58

I would like to add a couple more comments. BTW, I agree with most of what Bandwagon has to say about the league setup, except I do feel that weekly roster moves would add a bit more strategy than daily. Some weeks you will have to make tough decisions.

For example: You know that one of your players is banged up and may miss a game or two (Why did you draft D. Coleman anyway you wonder), but you have to decide whether you think your bench player will outscore your starter in the extra games. Also, you will need to analyze your opponent to see what his strengths and weaknesses are before making those decisions. If your opponent has an advantage in blocks, why not concede one category and stack your team with guards and good all around players. Getting to make decisions late in the week when you are down by a few points in some categories is almost cheating, is it not? I'm joking, but I really like the idea of weekly moves better.

If we do a H2H, then I would like to change my stat preferences listed above. I would eliminate the percentage categories and use the culmulative ones including splitting the rebound category. I would probably still omit turnovers as some of the best players commit turnovers, especially ballhandlers. A team could not start anyone and still win that category for the week. It probably would not happen, but if a team ended up in second by a single game, and the first place team employed that strategy the last week, it might not go over well. It would certainly be a bold move, but if you know one game would guarantee your team first place, would you pass it up?

One more comment on positions. I thought about it and think that keeping the five traditional starting spots with two Util positions makes for a good balance. Many players will be eligible at two positions, and these players will become more valuable. Having two G positions and two F positions takes away some of the strategy. It would change the way most managers conduct their draft. Just my .02.

The Bandwagon
ID: 139211118
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 11:04

It looks like alot of you guys like the weekly changes, but with 20 team and 12 players per team, half of your drafted players will hardly ever be used!

Every week you will start your best 7 players almost 100% of the time. For example, if you have 4 forwards on your roster, lets say you have Glen Robinson, and Antwain Jaminson for 3 games and Rick Fox, and Jerome Williams who has 5 games that week, thats a no brainer, I take GRob's, and Jaminsons 3 games every week over 5 Rick Fox, and Jerome Williams games. Trust me, this will be the case. With 20 teams, 12 players each, it will almost be impossible to have 4 players at the same postion with around the same amount of impact.

With the daily changes, you have to use all of your drafted players, not just half. Some nights your weakest players will have a game when your better players do not. Daily changes force you to use your whole team, resulting in the best drafted team usually wins.

So to some this all up, if we go with weekly changes, half our players will see no action in your lineup unless a injury happens, or if they have 5 games in a week, and your better player at the postion has 1 or 2.

The Bandwagon
ID: 139211118
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 11:20

One other thing, the daily roster change should induce more activity from the managers. Most managers would check in daily, change there roster, and accept or decline there trade offers.

With a weekly, the manager could put in his line-up for the week and forget about it until next week, thus ignoring there trade offers for a week, and frustrating other active managers.

Some of you may want a league that doesn't require much activity on your part, but anyone that runs and wants a successful league will need activity from the managers to keep the league interesting.

CanEHdian Pride
Donor
ID: 48936413
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 13:26

I would really be disappointed if we had weekly changes. If we are to act as general managers of our team it is ridiculous to take control out of our hands for a span of a week. If a player gets injured they should be able to be replaced the next night. If I pick a player up off waivers I should be able to insert him into my lineup when I see fit. I think weekly lineups would reduce my interest in the league and increase the probablity that my team will go stale.

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 13:40

I'd love to get on the waiting list, if possible.

Thanks,

pd

Ref
ID: 121135289
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 14:20

PD, did you not get an e-mail from us?

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 15:06

To All:

I just got to my PC after a 24 hour absence. It's great to see all the responses and interaction. One of the first things I stated was that I was not married to any partucular category for format for this league, but I, like all of you have preferences too. I'll be finalizing the league settings today. Part wll be based on what I think is best for the league and part will be based on the arguments that each of you has chipped in.

Of the 35 or so names I invited, 25 people have asked to be in (including PD who musta hit delete" on his e-mail!) + 3-4 or 4 names fro above that posted in thethread. Deciding which 20 to send paswords to is going to be tough. I expected about 15 yes respnses that that would have to recruit 5 more owners. I'll appologize in advance to anyone I have decline entry to. rankly,with the case we have, I should probably step aside!

Once final league settings are set, I'll send passwords out. If anyone who gets a passoword wants out due to unfavorable league settings, they can tell me and the next person on the waiting list will step in.

Ref
ID: 121135289
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:10

Here are the tentative settings. We will welcome debate and reasons if something should be changed. There has to be widespread support and RFS and I must agree in order for them to be changed. We went back and forth on stat categories, so if anything were to change--those would be the most likely. We didnt' address draft times either so if there is a better time that the majority can attend with us we can discuss that too.

League Settings
League ID#: 1213
Password:
Season: Full Season
Draft Type: Live
Draft Time: Saturday, October 26 at 12:40 pm PDT
Draft Status: predraft
Maximum Number of Teams: 20
Maximum Players on a Team: 12
Maximum Moves: No maximum
Maximum Trades: No maximum
Scoring Type: Head-to-Head League
Waiver Time: 1 days
Last Trade Date: Thursday, February 27
Trade Reject Time: 1 days
Roster Changes: Daily
Starting Positions: G, G, F, F, C, Util, Util, IL
Statistical Categories:
Field Goal Percentage
Free Throw Percentage
3-point Shots Made
3-point Percentage
Points Scored
Total Rebounds
Assists
Steals
Blocked Shots
Turnovers

Ref
ID: 121135289
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:21

Here are the 20 players that should have received e-mails from rfs. Yahoo apparently won't let us both have commish rights like CBS does so he sent out emails to these people. They are not in order of preference but order of people that got back to us that weren't removed.
We want to thank the 5 managers who removed themselves from the league rather than have someone that couldn't be in. Still we had to make cuts. We were pleasantly surprised there were so many managers that wanted in. There are bound to be a manager or two that can't play for whatever reason and if that happens the waiting list will kick in.
1 rfs
2 ref
3 bmd
4 CCRider
5 Twarpy
6 Mike D
7 coldwater coyotes
8 RSF
9 skinneej
10 CP
11 Peter N
12 ksoze
13 Pistol Pete
14 Tosh
15 Taxman
16 Bandwagon
17 Dave R
18 louky
19 Perm Dude
20 AP10

If for any reason anyone of you can't be involved please let us know. If you don't like the rules--let's discuss them. If you don't like final rules and wish to be removed please let us know as soon as you come to that decision. Thanks to everyone. It's gonna be a blast!

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:21

To those that are getting passwords, your e-mail will come from Yahoo! Fantasy Sports with the subject line "Fantasy Basketball"

They should be in your inbox... "right about now, funk soul brother, check it out now"

Ref
ID: 121135289
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:22

One other thing. This is a Keeper League. At this point we are keeping 9 players. All other players will go into next year's draft with the incoming rookies.

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:25

Got it, thanks. I'm in.

I didn't get Mike D's invite, either. You didn't happen to use the words "Viagra," "mortgage," or "sexy young coeds" in the invite, did you?

:)

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:25

I'm pretty jazzed about this league. Many hours of e-mails and AIMs and discussions went into it. Hope you all enjoy!

PS: Mike D: You can't make trades yet!

Ref
ID: 121135289
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 16:40

I haven't spent any time figureing out what to do with the actual draft as rfs and I have been consumed on how to make this the best for such a widerange of players. Mike D, your draft is too soon in your league!!! ;) This should at least get us started here!

One more thing, Yahoo is limited on what you can do--unlike CBS where we can manipulate everything. However, Yahoo site has been much better than the CBS site and the Yahoo site costs us $140 less ;) That being said...

There will be 6 playoff teams vying for the championship and 6 teams playing in the consolation pool. 8 teams will go home :(

We also have not really discussed an optional prize pool. Thoughts?

Ref
ID: 121135289
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 17:08

Getting a few people that have not gotten their emails. If you are on the above list and did not get an email let us know. It may have been filtered out of your inbox. worse comes to worse I can give you the league id and password.

skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 34916121
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 17:45

Thanks for the invite RFS and Ref. The e-mail went to my work address which I will not get until Monday, so if you could e-mail me the password at my home address that I linked to this post, I can go ahead and get my team in.

I would like to request a draft time change as any onther day would work for me besides 10/26. I had to leave early in the CBS Football draft and ended up with a subpar draft which has hurt me. With such a deep player pool it is difficult to pre-rank beyond 150-175 players. I would like to be able to make those late round decisions which tend to be more specific to each team's needs. I understand that it may not be feasible to set a time everyone can make, so if not I'll have to live with it or drop out. Thanks.

Ref
ID: 121135289
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 18:00

skineej, email was sent.

please don't simply mention something you do not like, but nominate a "better" choice and why.

We will try and accomodate as many people as possible but we realize it's likely impossible to please everyone. Perhaps if anyone has a problem drafting we can get another gurupie to sit in for them or another solution.

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 298152019
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 18:08

Personally the draft time is fine with me. I think anytime in the afternoon on the weekend will be the best time for everyone.

skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 34916121
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 18:19

Ok, I was able to make a change in travel arrangements so I will be available to draft on Sat. 10/26. It's my anniversary weekend, but I was able to convince the boss to wait until Sunday to leave. I'll have to go all out on her gift now!! ;)

Peter N.
Donor
ID: 4592181
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 19:26

I'm in as FM Jaguars

Thanks to rfs and Ref for including me in the list of 20 to join the league. The 24-team Football League in CBS has been a blast. This sounds like it will be just as fun!

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 23:05

Feedback:

1. Don't prefer head to head for hoops, but not enough to keep me from playing.

2. Draft time is very tough for me. I'll be pre-ranked for the most part, but 240 players will be drafted. Any weeknight after 9pm eastern time suits me, FWIW. I realize this is a tough area to get consensus on. My ability to be on the computer and able to draft is slim on a weekend afternoon.

3. Regarding the categories, I feel it is pretty redundant having both 3-point Shots Made and 3-point Percentage. I prefer the former (raw # made).

4. Not big on the mighty negative (Turnovers)

5. Keeper----not my preference. Probably outvoted here.

All of these are little issues. I'd love to be at the draft though.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 23:06

Oh, and I'm eyeballing your roster right now for trading purposes, rfs.

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 23:44

Thanks. I'm in as 'Tasha Dawgs'

If the draft remains at that time, I'll have to autodraft. Any night after 9pm eastern time works for me.

Feedback...

I think that '3-point Percentage'is unnecessary, and is mostly a downer for everyone. I propose we replace 3s percentage with 'Free Throws Made'. Sure we already have FT%, but FTM is a totally different positive stat. (Think about Shaq. He may make 6-7 FTs/night, but only shoot 40%)

I would also like to see turnovers vanish. I propose we replace it with Offensive Rebounds. Essentially replacing a negative stat with a positive one.

Keepers - I think 9 keepers is too many. I think that 6 is more than enough. You can still keep that starting team, but replace the bench yearly. Sort of like real life with the rotating benches. I also think there should be a 3 year limit on holding a player(Supposing everyone plans to stick around 3+ years).

And finally a question... Is it first-come first serve on free agents? Or does the waiver order come into play somehow? I've never played yahoo before.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Sat, Oct 12, 2002, 23:54

Waiver is reverse draft order. All non-drafted players are on waivers for the league setting specified waiver time (in this case, 1 day). Then all players are free agents. During the year, ny dropped player is also on waivers for in this case 1 day.

Agree with Tosh on draft time. ;)

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 298152019
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 00:00

I'd much rather have roto as well. H2H in basketball seems like week to week will depend on how many games your players are playing. I imagine a 20 team roto league will have a lot of parity that will keep it exciting throughout the season.

I would say 6-8 keepers. Any more than that and your team will rely very heavily on your initial draft for the next couple of years.

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 00:07

Thanks for the answer Mike D. So if I decide to waive Shaq, anyone can place a claim ... and 24 hours later the best waiver slot gets him.

But if around X-Mas, when Robert Pack is signed by Minnesota and immediately made a starter ... it's first come, first serve, correct?

Dave R
Leader
ID: 12441623
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 00:30

I'll throw in my 2 cents as far as draft time, I agree with Tosh and Mike D, any night after 9pm would be better from this end.
As far as all the other discussions, this is essentially my first venture into Yahoo, so I'm open for anything. I'll yield to the more experienced voices.

Sounds like fun, good luck to all.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 07:42

Tosh, right on Shaq. Regarding Pack, it depends. If someone is not part of the league, they won't be available at all to pick up, and Yahoo has to "add them" to the game. When players are added, they are added to "waivers." This routinely happened in baseball when minor league players were called up to the bigs.

Example: Mark Prior. He went to waivers, and the highest priority that noticed he was available and put a claim in got him. Often times players just don't notice the additions of players, and the waiver period will expire, making the player a free agent.

I checked on Pack. He's not currently in the game. In your example, he would indeed be added, and would go to waivers. If anyone noticed!

Ref
ID: 539581218
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 10:34

Great feedback gentlemen...let me address so of our suggestions.

Draft time, whatever works best for the league. I think we're more flexible on that than anything. Personally, the draft is everything IMO, so we're very sensitive to the best possible times to hold it. It should be pretty quick--I'm thinking a couple hours. Our 24 team football draft took about that long IIRC.

Stats, we went back and forth on those. To give examples of the ones listed, I didn't nec. want 3% either but RFS and the couple others I was talling to on AIM at the time did. ORB, I'm the one that asked for that to be taken off. I figure that is redundant as if you win Reb, you're likely gonna win that category too. Same thing with fgm, ftm and pts--though I can see where ftm might be a little different. I don't like TOs either but believe it or not, I've talked to probably half the league on this stat and 90% want them in. I'd like to have as many stats in as possible without redundancy. And I am hoping that we have an odd number of categories to cut down on the ties. We kept going back and forth so much on the fringe stats that we finally decided simply to put them in and if the league wanted to add/delete a couple of them--we'd do that.

Keepers. This has always intended to be a Keeper League. We first thought about keeping 5, but lately more and more want to keep all the players so they could build. So we made it 9 keepers so everyone would have 3 rounds to select for next year. Term for this keeper league--hasn't been determined. Most leagues do it for 3 years, but it's really not been discussed.

As you can tell by the quality of people in this league--it's going to be a lot of fun. Mike D is correct in all of his answers, Tosh. You see, he had to learn all of the nuances so he can best figure out the system so he can better TRADE. BW said he is the master trader and doesn't think Mike D can hold a candle to him, so I expect my inbox to be filled with offers from those two ;) Dave R, this is only my 2nd yahoo league. My first was this past baseball season and I was clueless. I didn't even know you could prerank and after the autodraft *yuck* I was in last place. But after I started figuring out the system and working on FA, I was able to pull up to 3rd place after a start with only 3 or 4 decent players. And I never had so much fun! I'd rather do that then dominate an "ordinary" league!

Dave R
Leader
ID: 12441623
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 11:03

Getting back to draft time, I'm not sure how many managers are in each time zone, Sat at 6pm EST could be tough for some. Week days 6 wouldn't be so bad from my point and I realize that 9 here is 6 for those on the west coast.
I can stay up as long as it takes, within reason, I'm always around late anyways.

I think a later, weekday draft is more practical, but I'l do what ever, even if I have to let it auto draft.

Stats, whatever you feel is best, this is basically new to me, I'll figure it out. As far as the # of keepers, I would prefer a lower amount as with 20 teams this has to be a deep draft.

I'm in regardless, lets have some fun

Ref
ID: 539581218
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 11:22

I just realized when we took out oreb it took it down to 10 stat categories. I really wanted an odd number. Again, we will go with what the majority want, I'll adapt--just want to make sure that a player that wins one category doesn't get another one almost free like I feel Rebs and Orebs would do.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 11:33

Agree on rebounds. I guess I'm still back to 8, which is an even number (taking out TOs/Off Rebs/3 pt %).

Once the league is filled can always do a vote on the categories and let the chips fall. Who could argue with that? (Not me!)

BTW, Bandwagon and I already have several conditional deals in place.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 11:58

DRAFT DATE/TIME:

Guys, this might not be as flexible as I thought. On Yahoo! you have to sign up for a time. Currently the ONLY times available to switch to are:

15th, 16th, 17th between 6A-Noon PST.
22nd, 23rd, 24th same
28th 6A-9A PST

Now, none of these time look very attractive to me! In the past yahoo has openend up additional draft times as the season approaches, but of course we can't rely on this. I'll check back frequently on Yahoo! for better times.

My original thought on 10/26 was to make it as close to the season tip off as possible since we will be so deep. I figured most people would want to take advantage of the latest news. I picked Saturday because I figured most people are not at work. Regardless, we may end op just maing the best of it.

If anyone needs out in case the draft cannot be changed, please speak up now.

I strongly suggest pre-ranking your players in case you cannot make it or you have technical problems. You can do this by going to "My Team" and then "Edit Pre Rankings" and foillow the instructions.

rfs

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 12:04

As far as stat categories and keeper parameters, go ahead and keep the ideas coming. I'll post some of my thoughts later on today or Sunday night.

Ref
ID: 539581218
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 12:24

mike d, the reason I don't like 3p% is because it is also included in fg%. I don't like the categories bleeding over or win one and win another almost automatically--but I do see a smidge of difference. it would be cool if we could all get into a live chat like aim or whatever and come to a consensus.

Dave R
Leader
ID: 12441623
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 12:27

If thats the case, then leave as is, IMO, if I need to auto draft so be it. 9 to 12 EST doesnt work for me during the week.

Some of us do need to work. I find it hard to believe that Yahoo cant just sched whenever, but so be it.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 12:53

I won't pull out because of the draft time. It would just be a bummer as I'd possibly have to rely on the autodraft. Not the end of the world (as we know it?). But not optimal or close to it.

Ref, we're saying the same thing. rfs, agree on the late date for the reasons you noted.

ksoze
Sustainer
ID: 50643419
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 12:53

The other draft times won't work for me either, I say leave it as is also.

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 21:57

Another thought on keepers. No matter what time we choose for a draft, there will be some of us that auto-draft. For that reason, I still think 5-6 max keepers is appropriate. If we were all able to draft live, we can make conscious decisions about the future and maybe take a flier on that rookie. With the auto-draft, those decisions are moot, and you just have to hope for the best.

Those people that can draft live now not only have a huge advantage this year, they have just as big an advantage until the end of time.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 12:27

from the list in #44, we have 16 owners signed up on the site so far. Twarpy, CP, louky & Pistol Pete are still not in. If you run into any of these guys, let them know to check their e-mail for an invite!

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 12:57

updates:

Yahoo! has not opened up any new draft times as of today. I'll keep checking, but it looks as if we are going to have to work with this date/time. If anyone needs instructions on how to pre-rank their players for draft, please contact me. I'll be happy to walk you through it. I strongly suggest pre-ranking! With 20 teams of experienced owners, you are going to get crushed if you let Yahoo! auto pick for you.

Keepers: I've gotten feedback and opinions from people on the number of keepers from 5 to 12! Here is where my thoughts are. I doubt that there is anyone of 20 teams that will truely want to keep all their players as next year's rookie crop will certainly have some gems in it. I also think it's best to force some hands to make decisions about who to keep as opposed to keeping everyone. I want owners to be able to keep their core players and even their role players (rookies) that might grow up into future stars. This rewards good drafting and smart trading. So, I think 5-6 is too low and 12 is too high. I'm going to go with 9 players (75% of your team). This allows for your whole starting team + 2 bench players. Keepers will be for 1 year rewable periods. So, if you draft Kobe, you can keep renewing him for as long as we play (3,5,7,100 years). Keepers will be declared at a date TBD - approximately 7 days before next years draft [or earlier if you wish to declare]. Next years rookie and free agent draft will be a "slow draft" here on the rotoguru boards. It will begin about 30 days before the NBA season. The order of future drafts will be worst regular season record to first and WILL NOT snake.

categories: Some have asked about why 3pointers & 3-point %. Here's my rationale. If you don't include both, the object will be to draft players that chuck'em from the cheap seats. So, a guy like Ray Allen who has a good 3pt% is the same as a guy like Ant. Walker that guns 'em regardless oif the percentage. They make about the same, but Ray is a better shooter and should be at a premium. In otherwords, there should be a reward for the owner willing to spend a premium draft pick on the higher percetage shooters. Some have asked about removing turnovers. I think 1 negative stat is OK. High turnover guys should present some risk to your team as it does for real NBA teams. Now, since this is H2H, I'd like an odd nmber of categories to help cut down on the number of ties in a given week [IE ending 5-5]. I think the best representaive category of a material help is ORB. This is in part by process of elimination of the other possible categories and partly because it will create an emphasis on a few select guys that excel in this category. I'm going to add it to the league settings for now, unless I hear strong disagreements.

Everything above is still a "work in progress" but I am trying to take some steps in the final formation of the league and rules, so speak up or forever hold you peace!

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 13:02

RE: #76. I see CP just signed in.

louky
Sustainer
ID: 527283021
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 15:44

I'm in RFS, Do we have a confirmed draft date and time yet, sorta skimmed the thread, but can't really tell what you guys came up with.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 18:57

Draft Order:

Yahoo! randomizes the draft order, but I don't think it does that until just before the draft [or maybe when our 20th owner joins?]. I have the ability to manually set the draft up. Since we are so deep, I thought for planning purposes, owners might want to know where they are going to draft ahead of time. It makes a big difference in a snake draft if you are #2 or #19!

If we want to determine order right away, we can use a random number generating site like this dice rolling site to determine draft order. Everyone gets a copy of the e-mail of the "roll" so it's verifiable.

Feedback?

rfs ®

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 20:13

You can "randomize" the draft order as often as you like in Yahoo. Once you tell Yahoo that your league is set to draft, you can use the Commissioner Tools to randomize the order.

I'd say there's no need to roll a die and send out the results. Just hit "randomize" two or three times and that will mix it up enough for me.

pd

Peter N.
Donor
ID: 18961418
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 20:14

Using the dice rolling site to determine the draft order is fine by me. I definitely want to know my position in the draft before draft day.

Pistol Pete
ID: 406471514
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 20:41

I'm in as "Blurred Crusaders"- as usual. Sorry I haven't been part of all the discussion yet. I'm trying to wrap up my busy season. Things should ease up for me work-wise in the next week or two.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 13823206
Mon, Oct 14, 2002, 20:59

PD-----that function isn't there anymore. You either have to manually set it, or let Yahoo randomly do it "around 30 minutes prior to draft time."

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 4921123
Tue, Oct 15, 2002, 03:09

Maybe this has been discussed, I'm not 100% up to date on my reading...

Is there a reason why 3PM is a statistical category along with 3P% while only FG% & FT% are categories while FGM & FTM are not? That doesnt seem to coincide..

I would suggest eliminating 3PM. I feel 4 scoring categories are enough, and buckets made seems to emphasize similar areas as % & total pts.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Tue, Oct 15, 2002, 12:06

AP10 (#85)- see post# 77 for my commentary of 3pts and 3pt%. I'm not saying these are final, but I'm not finding many arguments to the contrary.

Keep in mind, someone has to make a final decision, so as I have said many times, feel free to make an argument for/against specifics. Simply stating an opinion without reasoning probably won't sway me.

PD (#81) Mike D is correct. There is no way to randomize from commissioners tools. Our choices are to 1) wait until about 30 mins before draft time or 2) Use a random number generating site (or other method).

To All: It seems that the stat categories most up for discussion are TO's, 3pt%, and ORBs. I could always set up a simple poll. Vote Y or N on each category. Poll will close on a certain date [10/17/02?]. Majority rules? I'll send all 20 owners an e-mail so they are aware of the poll. Fail to vote, too bad. Thoughts?

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Oct 15, 2002, 12:09

I am strongly against taking 3M away. 3s are very important for the usability of many 2 guards. With a leauge this ddep, we need as many scoring threats as possible. Also 3M don't overlap. As I've stated before, 3% I could do without, but I will adapt to whatever we finalize--which btw needs to be quickly. So speak up now or forever hold your peace.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 4372378
Tue, Oct 15, 2002, 12:25

I think that's the best idea rfs. And yes, those appear to the categories mentioned most. Agree with Ref that 3PM is good. My preference has been removing TO, ORB, and 3P%. That leaves an even number though which is not wise.

You made good arguments for all of these, BTW. (you cagey veteran)

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Oct 15, 2002, 12:52

The following is part of an e-mail I sent RFS trying to play Devil's Advocate on the three categories in question.

The 3% doesn't make as much sense because 2 guards generally have bad fg% and the 3% will lower the fg% even more--making centers and PF more at a premium because of their higher fg%. Remember this isn't just against other 3 pt shooters but everyone--esp. with two util spots. Orb, same thing--makes 4s and 5s more of an impact--but it does change a lot of things. For instance, Ben Wallace will be at more of a premium as he rebounds well offensively and blocks shots. Maybe get a couple steals--but he has no Offense--so this will help the big men that have limited offensive skills like him and Mutombo, etc. TOs help neutralize the PGs and their assists. Also helps neutralize the players that have the ball a lot like the 2s and 3s. My teams are usually last in TOs. In kind of penalizes the better teams and the scrubs that don't play as much have fewer TOs.

But, we probably need to keep at least one of these if not all 3.

louky
Sustainer
ID: 527283021
Tue, Oct 15, 2002, 13:07

My .02, I like ORB and To's, not a big fan of 3 pt%.

I haven't been around much and haven't followed the discussion in this thread, but in H to H last year, I seem to remember all catagories counteed for the week, so an even number wouldn't have to be ruled out.

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 89321319
Tue, Oct 15, 2002, 13:12

Thanks Mike D. That tool is still available for the hockey commissioners--wonder why they eliminated it for hoops?

As for the statistical categories, I don't feel altogether strongly on any of them, except that I'm not a big fan of 3pt%. Many treys are thrown up at the end of a half or a game and rarely play a significant role outside of a standard missed shot.

pd

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 4921123
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 01:05

Like rfs stated and is listed under draft results...

Order of selection will be randomly determined approximately 30 minutes before the start of the draft.

I think the draft order should be determined ASAP, for draft planning purposes. I'm a little skeptical of the dice site however. How would this be done? Any layman knows basic probability, that the middle numbers of multiple dice have a greater chance of being rolled first.

ie) 2 dice
P(2) = 1/36, P(3)= 1/18 P(4) = 1/12 P(5)=1/9 P(6)=5/36 P(7)=1/6 then back down again.

I trust you enough to throw 20 names into a hat, and draw them. Or maybe get a group of people together, have one/few people with a group of names coinciding with a number. Have another person, unknowing of the number/name matchup randomly picking numbers out of a hat to determine draft order. There are a multitude of possible ways to get a fair/random draft, but throwing dice isnt one of them.

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 04:07

Since there are at least a few of us that have never played Yahoo before, here are a couple things I noticed from the rules that us newbies need to know trying to keep up with the vets.

-- You have 90 seconds to make your pick at the draft. If everyone was able to attend, and use the full 90 seconds per pick ... the draft would take 6 hours!

-- "If you use AOL as your ISP or access the web from behind a firewall (ask your system administrator), you may be unable to participate in a live draft." Just a heads up for you AOL types.

-- "The default deadline to make all transactions (trades, waiver claims, and free agent pick-ups) for the following day is 11:59 pm PT each night. All transactions will then be reflected in your lineup for the following day"

-- "All intra-roster moves (switching players between active and bench spots) can be made until five (5) minutes before the start of each player's game. None of the players involved in a move can have played or be within five minutes of their game's start time. So, for example, all players who play at 4:30 pm PT can be moved until 4:25 pm PT on game day."

-- "At no time will any manager be allowed to have more then five pending trades per league."

-- All managers can set rosters for dates in the future by going to the proper day on their team page and making the needed changes." [Good. I CAN have a few computer-free days without losing ground. If only I could do that with TSN.]

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 09:42

AP10: Dice rollng is a bit of a mis-nomer in this case, it's more of a random number gernerator. I have used this in many leagues and it is fair.

First I assign each gurupie a number [or rolling position] from 1-20 (probably alphabetical). I post the positioning here before the roll.

Second, I program the site to roll twenty (20) 100-sided die for each Gurupie. So, a number from 20 to 2000 will be gernerated and assigned to player #1... #20. The wide margin cuts down on the chances of a tie (IE 2 gurupies roll a 390!)

Sort the numbers from lowest to highest. Lowest drafts #1 ... highest drafts #20.

So, there are 2 variables at random. #1, your position (1-20) and #2 your assigned number (generated by site).

I appreciate the fact that you trust me to pull names from a hat, but I'd feel better if everyone got an e-mail with results that I can't tamper with.

Tosh:: Thans for the summary. Good points, all.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 09:51

Sorting alphabetically, here would be "rolling positions" So, AP10 would get the first dice roll no matter what the number, bmd would get second... and so on....

1 APerfect10
2 beastiemiked
3 CanadienPride
4 CCRider
5 coldwater coyotes
6 Dave R
7 ksoze
8 louky
9 Mike D
10 Perm Dude
11 Peter N
12 Pistol Pete
13 RecycledSpinalFluid
14 Ref
15 rockafellerskank
16 skineej
17 Taxman
18 The Bandwagon
19 Tosh
20 Twarpy

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 11:30

Tosh, Re: 5 trade offers at one time max--mike d and bw, you're gonna have to tone it down a bit ;)

I trust rfs and the fact that email goes out with results straight from that site means that rfs can't do anything with them even if he wanted. we've also used that for gmd. it's fair.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 11:33

rfs can't do anything with them even if he wanted

Believe me, he wants too ! ;) :)

rfs

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 4921123
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 11:55

rfs, gotcha. Sounds good.

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 12:09

re tosh 93, I forgot to mention, I use AOL at home but use an IE browser and it worked just fine last night with the live yahoo draft. The only hiccup was my own when my turn timed out as I hit draft--whoops.

100

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 14:08

Let's just keep that order. I see no reason to use the dice generatore ;-)

101

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 14:15

I'm thinking about changing my name to AAA.

102

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 15:10

Unless I hear compelling reason(s) why I shouldn't, I'm going to set the draft order as stated above at 6P PST 10/17/02. Look for an e-mail shortly after that time. I'll post results here too, fo course.

rfs ®

103

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 16, 2002, 18:05

An e-mail went out to the entire league to give an up or down vote on the 3 stats in question. NOTE: I used the e-mail listed in the owners e-mail list on the site. Please check that asap.

104

Ref
ID: 28045169
Thu, Oct 17, 2002, 11:50

Over half the league has responded to the e-mail thus far. Thanks!

105

Ref
ID: 28045169
Thu, Oct 17, 2002, 12:25

League Update:
We have had to go to our waiting list as Canehdian Pride had to backout because of his incresed courseload in school. While we hate to lost him, our waiting list is very impressive. The top people on our waiting list are those that voluntarily removed themselves to make sure we wouldn't have to cut anyone. With that said, Smawllwhirled will be replacing CP. We've also gotten a note today from another player that may have to drop out as well. We will announce his replacement if and when he's sure he needs to drop out.

106

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 298152019
Thu, Oct 17, 2002, 23:13

I guess rfs isn't getting the results he wants with the dice ;-)

107

Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 11:10

Speaking of results, the league vote is held up by the two people that are coming into the league. Mike D had to pull out of the league as well. We will announce his replacement as soon as we have confirmation.

So far we have 14 of the 18 votes casted. I have sent SW the vote as well. I am a little surprised on the results so far, but don't want to reveal them just yet. I have not gone back and figured out who has not voted, but one category is so close that I'll wait until this afternoon to close it out and announce our decision. I have also had a couple people ask that FTM be considered. If I'd have known that I'd have put it on the vote too--but it might be too late now. We know we can't please everyone--but we are trying so hard to make this be unique and a good time. At this point I don't even care, I will adapt to whatever we decide.

If you haven't voted please do so immediately. Once SW and the newcomer has a chance to vote, it's over.

108

Dave R
Leader
ID: 12441623
Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 11:36

Ref I didn't respond cause Yahoo is new to me. Whatever it is, it is.

I hope to be around for the draft, if not I'll auto draft. I hoping my wife will go visit he mother :). If not I'll have a problem

109

Ref
ID: 539581218
Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 19:39

16 teams participated in the league vote.

By a vote of 12 to 4, 3P% have been removed from the league stat categories.

By that same vote 12-4, the league has voted to KEEP ORB in the game.

By a slim 9-7 margin, TOs have been voted out of the league.

Therefore we will have 9 stat categories. The Basic 8 plus ORB.

The person next on our waiting list has yet to put his team in the league so we have also e-mailed the team that is after him on the list. First one in the league gets to play. We will continue to go down the list if we have to. We want people who can quickly respond to trade offers. So first in wins.

110

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 09:48

Stat categories have been changed.

beebop is owner #20 and is in. I'll be setting draft order today (by noon). You will all get an e-mail and I will post it here as well.

Here is the roll order:

1 APerfect10
2 beastiemiked
3 beebop
4 CCRider
5 coldwater coyotes
6 Dave R
7 ksoze
8 louky
9 Perm Dude
10 Peter N
11 Pistol Pete
12 RecycledSpinalFluid
13 Ref
14 rockafellerskank
15 skineej
16 smallwhirled
17 Taxman
18 The Bandwagon
19 Tosh
20 Twarpy

Remember, the above names are in alphabetical order. It just means that AP10 gets the results of the first roll..... Twarpy the results of the last roll.

BOL!

rfs

111

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 10:35

Here are the dice totals from first roll to last):

769
838
890
869
945
1047
1150
826
855
1118
833
989
802
1376
851
1182
1196
957
738
831

112

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 10:37

When I match them up to the alphabetical pick order andsort them from lowest to highest, here is your 2002-2003 Gurupie20 Draft Order:

1 Tosh 738
2 APerfect10 769
3 Ref 802
4 louky 826
5 Twarpy 831
6 Pistol Pete 833
7 beastiemiked 838
8 skineej 851
9 Perm Dude 855
10 CCRider 869
11 beebop 890
12 coldwater coyotes 945
13 The Bandwagon 957
14 RecycledSpinalFluid 989
15 Dave R 1047
16 Peter N 1118
17 ksoze 1150
18 smallwhirled 1182
19 Taxman 1196
20 rockafellerskank 1376

113

Ender
ID: 13443221
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 10:38

Yikes! How many dice were you using?!?!? ;)

114

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 10:40

20 100-sided die (cuts down on ties) ;)

115

beebop
ID: 09361717
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 10:52

Oooof, right in the middle. This is going to be interesting, ive never taken part in a draft with more than 12 ppl in it before.... Good luck to everyone.

116

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 11:38

#9--didn't move!

As long as I don't get stuck with "Breakfast Buffet" Kemp (aka "Rainfood") I'll be OK.

pd

117

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 11:46

Needless to say, landing @ #20, I didn't cheat! LOL

118

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 87192619
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 11:49

Same thing happened in my Yahoo hockey draft. First to sign up, then the "randomizer" put me last.

A fantasy sports widow must be running the randomizer...

119

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 12:55

I thought it was highest to lowest to see who goes first? :-)

120

ksoze
Sustainer
ID: 50643419
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 16:52

RFS... quick, go edit the thread so that it says that...

121

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 22:00

Hmmm. I'll like having either Duncan or Garnett on my team (have I already shown my hand too early?), but I don't look forward to having to wait until #40! I wonder who will be left?

122

KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 439341814
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 22:10

I think Dion Glover should fall that far.

123

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 22:20

Cool. I heard "The Glove" is a pretty good guard! ;-)

I just went to the site and re-sorted my pre-sort. I now have Shaq at #40, Kidd at #41, Webber at #80, and McGrady at #81. My team will be so dominent!!!

124

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 22:29

In all seriousness ... here is one strategy I am considering for the draft.

Since I do have to auto-draft, I am considering already bagging this year and begin planning for the next. I may just move a whole bunch of rookies and sophomores up on my sort, and either (a) I begin trading them away this year for a more established player, or (b) hope I actually get lucky and a few of the draftees work out.

I'm not sold on this strategy (I call it my Clipper plan) however. Any thoughts on the viability of this plan?

125

Ref
ID: 539581218
Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 23:28

I'm at pick number 3, I may consider movind down a little if someone wants to trade.

126

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 211013916
Sun, Oct 20, 2002, 00:27

Haha Tosh, I was tempted to do the same as I was almost going to autodraft. Got "permission" from my wife this afternoon to chunk out that time frame next weekend (may still need to autodraft the first pick [UGH!] as I think one of the little Fluid kids is at a soccer game from 12:00 to 1:00). Its good to have a significant other who understands sports (she is a HS volleyball coach), although she doesn't get the fantasy sports thing.

127

Ref
ID: 539581218
Sun, Oct 20, 2002, 00:58

Now that we have our order, it'd be better if we didn't mention potential draftees names. I know that during the draft, you may not discuss undrafted players. If you're picking 14th and a guy has slipped and his name is mentioned before 13th slot goes and 13th takes him when 14th was waiting for him--that could change everything. The draft will be really fun, but it is super deep. All those that are in our 24 team football league can attest to that. It will be a lot of joking around and cutting up for the first several rounds then it will slow way down as you search for someone that can help you. It will be fun. I won't pre-rank. But I'll have a general idea of what I want to accomplish. I hope everyone enjoys the draft as much as I do.

128

ksoze
Sustainer
ID: 50643419
Sun, Oct 20, 2002, 16:28

RFS/Ref, was there any interest in a voluntary prize pool for the league? I'd be willing to contribute $10-$20 towards it...

129

Ref
ID: 539581218
Sun, Oct 20, 2002, 23:40

ksoze -- we asked the league about that early and there wasn't much discussion on it so we weren't sure if there was interest in it or not. I know it was very popular in football. If there is enough interest--perhaps we can reconsider--not sure about timing now though.

130

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 4921123
Mon, Oct 21, 2002, 04:04

I'm willing to throw in a couple bucks for a prize pool.

The #2 Overall pick is on the trading block. Contact me with offers.

131

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Mon, Oct 21, 2002, 14:35

ksoze:

I'm going to send out an e-mail today asking who would be interested in a small optional prize pool.

Keep in mind, our league will qualify for a Guru Patron Prize and I will buy some type of small placque or trophy for the winner too.

Here are the parameters I'll suggest:

1) Entry is strictly voluntary
2) Entry Cost $15.00
3) MUST reply that you want "in" via post or e-mail by 10/26/02.
4) MUST make payment to me via Pay Pal or US Mail by 11/1/02.
5) Minimum 10 entries or we'll call off the prize pool.
6) Payout TBD, but will try to do something like this:

*Make playoffs top 6 and get $15.00 back.
*Remainder of pool money to go to 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd depending on number of entries.
*Obviously, final payouts will fluctuate based on how many owners participate (IE 10, 12, 13, or 20?)
* Any owner that doesn't make the response deadline (10/26/02) or payment deadline (11/1/02) will be refused entry into the prize pool and money will not be accepted.

132

Ref
ID: 539581218
Mon, Oct 21, 2002, 15:13

Thought about a prize for the consolation tourney too (7th place). Also a prize for Reg. season best record (before tourney starts).

133

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 89321319
Mon, Oct 21, 2002, 15:17

I don't know that I'll be able to kick in for prize money, so I might be out-of-line to suggest this. However, that's never stopped me before: I suggest that if a team which did not kick in prize money finishes "in the money" that their share go to the Guru.

That way you can set the prize amounts without having to re-shuffle later.

pd

134

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 4921123
Mon, Oct 21, 2002, 15:47

I disagree with PD's suggestion. No time to defend myself, but...

135

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 10:30

So far 7 of 20 want to participate in an optional prize pool. Others?

PD, while I appreciate the suggestion, because this is optional, I think we'll keep the payouts limited to those that participate. All money in will be paid out @ 100% to the participants.

rfs

136

smoke
ID: 16937228
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 10:38

rfs, I think it is hilarious that you formed such an elite league, and still involved twarpy. He is the biggest waste of a manager i have ever seen. Have you kept up with the chatroom tools draft? he didnt pick in like 4 days. good luck with him.

137

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 11:40

smoke, who are you?

have you ever considered that he forgot about your ultra-important league? Twarpy might not hang with you, but I know I talk to him often and he is on our A-list. I think it's pretty low for you to intrude into a thread where you don't belong to libel a person that most if not all feel very highly toward him.

Even if he wasn't the best fantasy player ever--which is not what I'm saying at all--he's still the Woodward and Bernstein of the boards. You know he single-handedly brought down Small World when he caught Moderator Mike cheating?!?! Perhaps you're too young for that ;) Now run along and go play. We promise we won't go inturrupting your recess.

138

ksoze
Sustainer
ID: 50643419
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 12:25

Twarpy has an excellent reputation, has been posting to these boards for years and, if I recall correctly, stuck around for our entire 24 team football draft a month or two ago.

smoke is either a non-posting lurker (and not involved in either this or the chatroom tools draft) or a regular who, under a different ID to keep his anonymity, changed his name. Either way this childish flame of Twarpy holds no weight.

Feel free to grow a backbone, smoke.

139

Twarpy
Leader
ID: 408391814
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 13:37

Smoke do you ever think that maybe complications outside of my life might have played a role in my drafting in the Chatroom Tools draft?

First of all every single person in that draft knows me for at least 2+ years, and every single person was simply joking with me cause we've done about 20+ drafts with that same group and Im usually the one yelling that they aren't picking fast enough. So I guess I got whats coming to me in this draft.

I'd apologize if you were actually in that draft but you're not, so as an outsider looking into our draft please get the facts straight before posting something like this.

Thanks Ref and Keezer for backing me up.

140

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 15:12

There is no need to explain yourself Twarpy. You are in the league to provide comic relief! ;)

rfs ®

141

Twarpy
Leader
ID: 408391814
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 15:39

The truth comes out, now rfs why don't you act like youre a commish and process a trade in the football league;)

142

What about Bob-smoke
ID: 33958918
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 17:18

Ok I confess it was just me trying to cause trouble again:-( Just me being my dumbass self. Surprised none of you caught it;-)

143

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 337443111
Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 17:23

Twarpy, you dumbass....

....Cause the standings are all jacked up and I'm hoping that tonight's stats run clears things up. I'll approve the trade after that. i just don't want to do any more transactions until CBS fixes the existing problem (although I think I know what it is).

144

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Wed, Oct 23, 2002, 14:51

rfs, I decided to pay if we have enough. Bringing the total to at least 8.

145

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 23, 2002, 15:10

There are 9 now. Not doing it unless there is at least half the league involved. So I guess that means if we get one more, I'll start working on payouts.

146

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 23, 2002, 15:14

Actually, bmd, you make 10.

147

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Wed, Oct 23, 2002, 15:25

We have 10 YES responses: rfs, RSF, Ref, Twarpy, coldwater, ksoze, AP10, Peter N, Tosh, & bmd.

Ref: Can you start working out payout scenarios? 10? 12?

I'll send out a payment instruction e-mail which will include my mailing address (not gonna post it here) and Pay Pal instructions (will post it here). Send $15.00 via pay pal to rockafellerskank007@yahoo.com

To all: Remember, you must give a "YES" prior to draft day if you want in. It's not fair to let someone decide after they have seen their players. Of course, all the "YES" responses must pay by 11/1/02 or will be excluded too.

148

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Oct 23, 2002, 15:35

I will work out a scenario.

To those people not involved with football, here is what I try to do. First, it's not about the money--so I strive for no big payouts. I try to get the most people involved as possible. My philosophy is that if I can win back my investment--then it's a success, so anyone who makes the playoffs will at least get their investment back ($15). I also want to give the winner of the consolation tourney something too but can't commit yet with just 10 people in so far.

Also, the regular season best record should get something. I feel for the guy that has dominated all year then an injury or two knocks him out in the first round.

The most money will go to the champion then 2nd place then at least something for the consolation game (3rd place). I doubt that I have enough for 4-6th and 7th place would get less than $15--$10 at most.

149

Tosh
Donor
ID: 23650284
Wed, Oct 23, 2002, 22:44

LOL. Back in post 62 I asked, "But if around X-Mas, when Robert Pack is signed by Minnesota and immediately made a starter ... it's first come, first serve, correct?

From today's Pioneer Press ...
"McHale said he continues talk to the agent for Rod Strickland, who is available. But from there, the free-agent talent pool tails off to names like Doug Overton, Vonteego Cummings, and Robert Pack."

He's Back!

150

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 298152019
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 00:25

If we have a prize pool I think everyone that decides to participate should have to participate every year until the league is over. Also, those that do not participate can't participate in following years. This will keep a team that isn't paying this year from stocking up on young talent and waiting for the right time to pay for the prize pool.

I just thought I'd throw that out so we can lay down the rules about the prize pool for the years to come. Personally I wish everyone would participate but I guess that isn't feasible.

151

beebop
ID: 09361717
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 00:52

Im thinking of joining the prize pool. Ive just got to see if i can get $30 together and send it over.

152

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 38832322
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 01:10

Great beebop! Just be sure to ship the first $15 to rockafellerskank and the extra $15 to me, OK. :-)

153

beebop
ID: 09361717
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 01:11

Im in Australia, so with the exchange rate, its about $30.

154

RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 38832322
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 01:14

Ah...the yolks on me then.

155

Ref
ID: 28045169
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 17:14

I've got the breakdown for 10 person league assuming all of them make the playoffs or win money. I'm hoping for at least 12 as I don't like the current numbers much. Also, have to refigure for the people who will win that aren't in the prizes.

156

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 21:38

beebop makes #11.
CCRider makes #12.

157

skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 40625911
Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 22:38

OK, I had my arm twisted, I'm in. Actually I figure looking at the managers that I'm a shoo in to win my money back!! ;)

BTW I like bmd's idea that to be included in the money pool for the 3 years, you have to put money up each year.

158

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 298152019
Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 00:31

Rfs or Ref, did you guys read my post? I was just wondering what the rules regarding the prize pool were.

159

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 01:02

bmd,

Sorry for no reply ....

While I'd like owners to committ to participate for 2,3,4+ tears at a minimum, the reality of getting it done isn't very good. I don't think I can require it.

Since many owners said "yes" already, it's not fair to tell them that they just signed up for 3 years. What if an owner drops out after year 1, does the buyer of his team have to pay? Or is he prevented from paying? Such logistic problems to manage.

Also, with 20 teams, I think it's going to be about impossible for anyone to hoard young talent regardless of their motives. Even if someone tried, I think it would be a bit unrealistic to think they could do this for 1,2,3 three years to win $50.00 +/- in the 2005-2006 season! These 20 owners are too good for that.

Frankly, getting this entire thing together was not just a snap. Ref and I undertook an even bigger league in football. This one was approached to some exent with a "keep it simple" approach because of the amount of work and tracking and recruiting and rules setting, and money collecting and trophy buying and money paying and then I gotta draft my team!

While I woud lie to say your idea can be implemented, it's more work than I am willing to undertake. Also, my goa was quality owners as opposed to money. That's why we made it optional to begin with. I'd rather play with these 20 guys for bragging rights than play with 20 boneheads for money.

Ref: "Hey, rfs, stop rambling, man!"
rfs: "D'Oh!"

rfs ®

160

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 01:05

.. and skinneej makes #13!

161

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 30831210
Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 01:11

Oh, but I appreaciate the input, bmd. I really do! I'd much rather be open to suggestions early in the process than closed minded later on.

To add on to my explanation, what would I do if an owner refused to pay in year 2? Kick them out? I don't want to have to "enforce" a rule like that!

Besides, After I win this year, I want you to have a chance to save your $15 next year! ;) Just like WPFB baseball, right? NOT!!!!

Did someone jsut kick off the trash talking?

162

Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 11:02

We're not doing this to try to win a ton of money. This is strictly voluntary--a side venture to make this game more interesting for some. If it was part of the mandatory rules then it would have been in the rules before we asked people whether they wanted to play or not. I, too, appreciate the input, but it's voluntary.

163

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 298152019
Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 13:07

I agree with what you guys are saying about the money. The only thing I was worried about was somebody drafting a team with all young players and not paying this year but deciding to pay in the future. The more I think about it though, anybody playing is not playing for the money but for the competition. I know the main reason I'm paying is so I can make myself stay interested and competitive.

164

Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 13:19

bmd, exactly. People with a little money involved tend to stay interested and competitive and don't "chuck" their team if they start off bad.

Forum: hoopPage 7994Subject: Ref & rfs' 20 team Yahoo League discussion

Forum: hoop
Page 7994
Subject: Ref & rfs' 20 team Yahoo League discussion