Self Editor

Forum: hoop
Page 9391
Subject: End game

Posted by: Guru - [330592710] Sat, Apr 05, 2003, 11:12

So, rfs, did I make the moves you expected today?

You surprised me by picking up Garnett. I thought he would be my differentiator. Would you have taken him if Iverson hadn't been a concern?

Dave R
Leader
ID: 59191318
Sat, Apr 05, 2003, 13:18

Should be an interesting finish to the season. Both with 2 trades left. Meanwhile I went tradelss on all teams as I try to get in the top ten, time to roll the dice I think..
Kind of sad to me that hoops is ending soon.
Good luck to all in the hunt.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sat, Apr 05, 2003, 13:29

Guru,

I debated last week between KG/Ricky Davis & AI/Ricky Davis. Obviously, I choose the AI/RD version.... So, the AI potential DNP forced me to go to KG, otherwise I would not have gotten him (as you sumised) and that WAS the player that I wrote about being afraid of. C'est la vie... wish I'd gone with my initial instinct.

I figured you would add Marion + KG, but I thought you would move Gasol/TD like everyone else to get them. Webber took a lot of sales today. His play has stank lately, but considering no one plays on Monday, Webber plays 2 in 3. maybe he will wake up and be my difference maker?

I wasn't sure if you'd make the Kidd (2) > Steph(4) move or not. I think you took a risk there.

Well off ot the sartibles to put a Billups back up plan in place. I'm bleeding!

BOL, rfs

Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Apr 05, 2003, 13:55

I decided to move from Webber instead of Duncan because Webber has been disappointing for awhile, and had to be sold soon anyway. Duncan can be held to the end. (I'm taking the Spurs at their word that TD's ankle sprain is not a problem.) And the way things have gone lately, 1 Duncan game is almost as good as 2 Webber games.

Marbury is a concern, especially given his last 2 games and his comments about it. But he's had 3 days to rest, and Phoenix is scrapping for that last playoff spot. They need him to play and to play well. No guts, no glory - but I have a few backup plans in mind for that slot if he doesn't cut it.

Having Davis and Peterson on your roster has given you some valuable flexibility. I couldn't figure out an efficient way to maneuver across positions.

The more I look ahead, the more it looks like a dead heat going into the last 2 days. The difference may be figuring out which studs will carry their weight those final days, and which will mail it in. I'm not at all convinced that my $value advantage is going to be worth much (if anything) down the stretch.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sat, Apr 05, 2003, 18:09

Marbury = 25.5 / Ricky Davis = TBD.

Kelvin
ID: 17243813
Sat, Apr 05, 2003, 20:49

tmac didnt start 2day vs mavs.. har har...

Dave R
Leader
ID: 12441623
Sat, Apr 05, 2003, 21:33

Davis around 26 midway though the 4th

Guru
ID: 330592710
Sun, Apr 06, 2003, 20:50

Wow! Plans are certainly going out the window.

Carter & Wallace are both on just about all of the top teams. I have 2 trades, ukula has 4, and the others in the top 6 have either 1 or 0.

It may turn into a war of attrition.

SillySpheres at Work
ID: 582492810
Sun, Apr 06, 2003, 21:06

Guru:

Don't forget about Billups, Iverson, and DC. All these injuries coupled with poor schedules for Kobe, Webber, Shaq, and Malone this coming week will really tax managers and reward those with lots of extra trades.

GolfFreak
Donor
ID: 5139513
Sun, Apr 06, 2003, 21:29

could someone please help.

i dont understand the playoffs postions

what teams will play hard to the end? (to move up)
and which teams will start to rest ther studs some?

will TD play till the end? or sit out some games?
kobe?
thanks

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sun, Apr 06, 2003, 21:30

I don't suppose a Shaq/Marbury fist fight is a possibility tonight, huh? *just kididng, sort of*

AI, Billups, Vince, Ben. POOF!

Blooki
ID: 22382918
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 04:35

GolfFreak, we can't say yet. No team has locked their position in the playoff race yet. It's usually during the last one or two games of the year in which their seed would not be changed by whether or not they win their remaining games. It's kind of hard to explain, but if you take a close look at the standings during the last 3 days of the season, you should be able to figure it out. :) If not, just hang around these boards during those days and you'll get some tips.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 11:30

After Guru's big night and the Ben/Vince injury combo, I'm pretty sure I'm [practically] eliminated. Incredibly, I believe this week is the first time all year that I have had 0 trades at any point during the season. Had to choose who to move and who to keep between Vince/Ben.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 11:48

rfs - I think if I stay solely focused on you, I can make it very difficult for you to win. But I still need to watch out for ukula, who is ranked #3 and has 4 trades in reserve (although he also has both Carter and Wallace). If I get too focused on playing a prevent defense against you, I may provide him with an opportunity to slip by.

I really thought you would wait until tomorrow to make your next move. I realize that this would subject you to additional $loss, but waiting would have given you the benefit of an extra day of info, and perhaps a chance to orchestrate greater differentiation vs. my team. When you went from Ben to Dirk, I simply matched that move, as it was clearly the way to go, assuming that Ben will miss at least some time. But I think I'll hold Carter for another day, not necessarily because I expect there is much chance he'll play, but because it gives me some more time to think about the matchup possibilities vs. you and vs. ukula. I don't think today's dollar hit will matter. And so far, ukula hasn't done anything today either.

At this point, I think the other contenders are going to be very hard pressed to catch up, so it looks to me like a 3-way race at most.

J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 11:51

dont forget, there are no games today. And we get trades tomorrow, so you're only really missing 1 game if you're out of trades. There's still hope! Hope its a good finish between you two!

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 12:05

I know. I thought about it. Some frustration set in this morning. Besides, I figured you would see that Ben->Dirk was my obvious move whether I did it today or tomorrow and I can still keep you guessing about the Vince-> ? move as you will make yours tomorrow and I will make (most likely) a different one the day after for whatever differentiation I can muster. If I had waited until tomorrow to make the Ben-> Dirk move, I assume you would have copied it at that time too unless I was willing to play chicken with the TSN server. I'm pretty sure your Vince move is one of 2 players anyway. I'm not going to take too much of a risk if I can't win as 2nd place money is better than 3rd place money ;)

rfs

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 12:07

... and just something to think about. Because of my roster flexibility, I can go Vince -> G,F or C. Psyched out yet? LOL.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 12:50

rfs - I would have picked up Dirk today regardless of your activity. It was too obvious.

Assuming that I took Dirk before you made a move, I thought you might have opted for a different tack. You could have picked up a cheaper center - like Ratliff, perhaps - which would have allowed you to get a stud for Carter on Wednesday, like Kidd or McGrady. If nothing else, it would probably have insured you greater differentiation for the final week. In a vacuum, a combo of Ratliff/Kidd or Ratliff/McGrady would most likely be inferior to Dirk/mid-priced-whoever. But we are no longer in a vacuum, and your best chance to win is probably to get as much differentiation as you can stomach.

So, I was actually pleased to see you take Dirk. That keeps things in better control.

And I don't think I care who you take for Carter. Although I might change my plans in the next 24 hours, I think my Carter move is already set. I just want to think a little more about what risks are present with ukula's team, and whether I should be positioning my moves in anticipation of - or in response to - his activity.

I don't know what your motivations are regarding 2nd place vs. 3rd place. It was possible that you would consider a maverick approach to try to get to the top, even if that risked a decline to 3rd place. If you are trying to protect no worse than 2nd, then your tactics might be more conservative.

I was thinking that you might be kicking yourself for dealing Iverson. But had you kept Iverson and saved a trade, you would have missed Garnett's two monsters. So that might not have benefitted you either.

At least, with Carter down, Mo Pete may deliver better results this week. He's not someone that is on my short list! Sounds like he becomes your not-so-secret weapon.

C.C. SOLDIERS
ID: 311292118
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 12:54

Even though I have held off the guy second in my division, I'm afaid that his scrubs will get more playing time while my studs rest for the playoffs!!! Thats my only concern right now. I'm thinking of picking up a couple of mid-level players this week.

Jazz Dreamers
Sustainer
ID: 47143610
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 17:14

Just wanted to say this is a great thread, and I appreciate Guru and rfs giving us some insight into their strategies during this homestretch. Congrats to both of you on great seasons!

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 17:22

At this stage of the season, it becomes a real chess game. The difference between this and chess, though, is that in this game, any piece can explode at any moment!

Jazz Dreamers
Sustainer
ID: 47143610
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 17:28

And, as evidenced by your trading of Chris Webber, you can sacrifice a King in this game for better material. :)

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 22:28

Motivations: 2nd place is $500, 3rd place is $200. I summized my chances of overtaking Guru after the Ben/Vince injuries at about 10%. I'd need Guru to move Vince -> Nash (leaving RD alone) and Webber to put up 3 60's in a row to balance Duncan and Mo Peete to put up 45 per game until the end. I don't regret the AI->KG move, but I do regret not going with my original KG plan. That would have saved me 1 trade and kept me in the running (50/05).

Ukula will be formidable with those extra trades. Much could hinge on picking the proper player(s) on 4/16. To some extent, my last gasp relies on Guru focusing on ukula and getting lucky to see them BOTH make bad moves--- quite unlikely.

I wasn't willing to risk a shot at #1 at the expense of dropping to #3, so I'll probably chose to play conservatively and hope for an explosion from Guru/Ukula.

rfs

blackjackis21
Sustainer
ID: 1510172822
Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 23:34

I truly envy you guys at the top down the strech here (and I know Dave R would agree) not for any monetary reasons, but just the sheer fun. Looks like there's a decent chance things are going to come down to that last night, when almost anything can happen. I remember last year like it was yesterday (cue dreamy music and wavy screen...) it was Finley for Dave R. with I think about an 11 pt. lead, against Ricky Davis for me. Cleveland's game was pretty much over before Dallas' game started. Davis played 28 minutes and had 19.5 points. I figured that wouldn't be enough, but it was actually fairly close. Finley sat most, if not all, of the second half, ending with 16 pts. in 22 minutes, giving Dave R the 8 or so point victory.

Ah the glory days :)

Good luck to all and enjoy.

PS: I did have to actually look at the sartibles for the stats I gave - I'm not quite THAT big of a loser...

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 19:39

Ukula going "different" with MJ/Brand as his replacements for Vince/Ben.

SmackDown
Donor
ID: 41127418
Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 23:40

I think it will be the Mo Peterson, Boozer type of picks that will ultimately decide the winner.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 09:19

Tough night for ukula, who gets only 32 from Shaq and Stoudemire combined.

D. Dawkins is closing strong, and has the highest franchise value. He's now moved up to 4th.

RFS and I essentially had a push last night.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 11:53

Interesting pickup, rfs. I had figured you would take Jordan, as that would differentiate from me, but protect against ukula and a few other contenders.

I'm not making any moves for Wednesday, as you probably surmised.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 12:00

Guru, I entered that move (which I knew you weren't interested in) at 11:40 to try to through you off a bit because I wasn't sure you were going to move Kobe or not. I did at 11:52, but didn't want to reveal it in case you were 50/50 on moving Kobe. I was hoping you'd thnk I was done and reveal any moves you might make! I hope the 50 point RJ apepars instead of the 20 point RJ the rest of the way.

I didn't move to Jordan because I believe WAS will shut him down when (if) they are eliminated from the playoffs.

Not happy with the push last night considereing marbury had a bad night. Needless to say I'm going to die with Webber less than studly games, butg he is a risk I must continue to take.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 12:05

I had already decided to keep Kobe for the Sacramento game, regardless of your decision. I'd rather let you move first, and then decide if/how to react later.

I had the same concern about Jordan, although he's been playing well enough to keep the Wizards in the thick of it. At this point, it seemed like a reasonable gambit.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 12:20

I also had that concern about Pierce. He's been so banged up this year, that once Boston has clinched - which could be tonight - he'd be likely to rest more than usual.

smallwhirled
Donor
ID: 17152614
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:28

Wow!

DDawkins took a bank of trades in February and turned it into a serious run. Watch out with that RV. Heck, he's got a better RV than me now.

Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:36

Looking at the rosters from a SS that J is making and it appears to me that if TD does subpar or gets hurt or shutdown or whatever for even one day, that could be the break rfs needs. But with 2 more trades from Guru, he can easily go in and out of a stud to get an extra 50 or so.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:36

High RV will probably be less of an advantage down the stretch as it was for the past month.

Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:42

Agree with Guru. I'm not in the mix but I have 8 mil of unusued cash myself.

Btw, J just posted that SS in the standings--check it out--it rocks.

culdeus
Donor
ID: 4171112
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:43

You guys have serious balls waiting until 10 min to go when you are at the top of the rankings.

smallwhirled
Donor
ID: 17152614
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:46

Agree as well.

Farn
Donor
ID: 7822711
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:50

might be interesting to squeeze ukula in there as well.

Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:55

If he gets into the top 5 again, I'm sure J will add him.

J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:55

tell him to get his slacker team into the top 5 ;)

I should have this automated enough to repost daily for each day's top 5.

ukula
Donor
ID: 38354911
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 13:56

Yeah, Where's the respect? :)

ukula

ukula
Donor
ID: 38354911
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 14:07

I'm beginning to think that the lack of respect stems from my lack of RV. In fact, I have to go down to #27 in the top 100 to find a team with a lower RV. My wife keeps telling me that size doesn't matter. What gives?

ukula

D.Dawkins
ID: 552572320
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 14:41

J- I appreciate all the work you do. You alone make this game so much more enjoyable.

Roster value means very little right now and will become even more so each night. I'm just hoping teams will keep playing their studs until the very last night of games.

It's really just a two team race right now with Guru having the advantage over rfs. I was in a battle like this two years ago with deepsnapper and it went down to the last night. I envy you guys. It's so much fun to battle someone night in and night out with so much at stake.

Actually, ukula has an outside shot with the extra trades. ukula- you need to pray that either Dirk, Allen, or Marion goes down with an injury.

smallwhirled- I've had my eye on your roster value for quite a while...another battle that will go to the end :)

Good luck.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 19:54

Thanks for the SS J, looks (almost) perfect. ;)

SmackDown
Donor
ID: 41127418
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 01:55

I have a question which I know someone in here will have an answer......Which NY player is worth me selling Stojakovic into?

SweetGP20
ID: 212461420
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 02:35

#45

Patrick Ewing

SillySpheres
ID: 58512252
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 09:07

re #45: Larry Johnson

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 10:24

I just assimilated each of the top 6 teams forward through next Tuesday, and #2-#6 look to be about 50 points apart heading into that final day. In doing this, I built in assumptions about likely moves, generally assuming that the bought players would produce 50 TSNP/G. I know that is an aggressive assumption, but even if I use a lower average like 35 TSNP/G, the jumble remains.

Obviously, even with the current degree of roster overlap, there is more than a 50 TSNP margin of uncertainty, which means that I cannot reasonably predict which team(s) I need to be most concerned about.

My primary opposing player risks are vs. TMac, Kidd, Webber, Pierce, Iverson, and Shaq. Shaq will probably get sold tomorrow from those teams that have him. Barring an unforseen turn of events, I'll be dumping Kobe tomorrow as well. For Saturday, Webber will need to be dropped.

On my team, my primary risk is Marbury, who appears on only one of the other contending rosters.

With the exception of Coach K, who is already tradeless, every other contender has either Webber or Shaq, so I'd imagine that every team will make at least one trade in the next 2 days. Perhaps by Sunday morning, the situation will clarify.

Fortunately, I seem to have enough cushion to stay above the fray for the next few days. Barring injuries, I should be able to preserve at least as many trades as anyone else. That could be a tremendous advantage.

I actually think my situation is somewhat easier to manage right now than any of the other contenders (other than Coach K, who can only sit and watch until the final day). The battle for 2nd-6th looks extremely tight, and the desire to appropriately position those rosters vs. so many other teams is very problematic.

Ukula's team is the most difficult to assess, because he still has 4 trades. With 5 slots already different than my roster, there is significant risk vs. his team.

Boston clinched its playoff berth last night, and Washington is on life support. I've avoided both Jordan and Pierce due to concerns about the possibility of reduced playing time. Boston could still advance to the #5 seed or drop to the #7 slot, but they cannot secure home court advantage, so their need for Pierce over the next few games is unclear, and it seems plausible that he could be rested at least slightly more than usual. But there are a lot of players who could suffer that fate, and only time will tell.

ukula
Donor
ID: 7323106
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 10:57

Good analysis Guru. It should be a good battle right to the end. The last day will be especially interesting as everyone gets 4 new trades to use on that final day. My opinion differs on Pierce and Jordan however. I can't see Jordan ending his career sitting on the bench. I could easily see him going out in a blaze of glory launching 25-30 shots per game. I could be wrong. Most teams have already clinched or have been eliminated so to say Pierce will get less playing time than someone else is tough. Now is not the time for me to be cautious with my team - I intend to go down swinging with everything I have. In my opinion I have nothing to lose, I shouldn't even be here to tell you the truth. I've never finished higher than 10,000 WWR in hoops, had a below average RV among contenders for most of the season, missed out on the Kobe explosion at the beginning of the year, and really didn't even follow the NBA that closely until this year. I don't even know why I'm here at the end. I pretty much signed up for a hoops team just to keep busy and my goal was the top 100. I've been in numerous other contests that have come down to the wire on the last day of the season for quite a bit more cash (some winners, some losers) so I'm battle-tested and don't feel any pressure in these last few days. I'm the cinderella story in this group so I'm going aggressive. No PAIN, No GAIN.

ukula

Donkey Hunter
Sustainer
ID: 55220159
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 11:20

ukula sounds like a real life manager but he need a few more cliches

Everyone has been counting us out all season and we're just here to prove them wrong.

That's always a good one. Maybe even break out a tape measurer and show your team that the height of the basket or the width of your monitor is the same as its been all season.

DR Stars
ID: 0839516
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 11:27

Great Hoosiers reference... LOL

ukula
Donor
ID: 7323106
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 11:39

How about these:

In the next seven days I have to raise my game to a new level.

I have to Step it Up!

Our backs are against the wall.

Focus and Finish.

Eye of the Tiger.

We have to want it more.

We just need a few lucky bounces.

This what you've worked all offseason for, this is why you lifted all those weights.....

Get the GLEAM boys.....get the GLEAM

Time to put on the foil.

Time to give 110%.

smallwhirled
Donor
ID: 17152614
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 11:42

With all the uncertainty, might as well flip a coin. Best out of three for sure though. :)

That's what I always do.

smallwhirled

clach
ID: 4112529
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 12:04

well great run and compliments to top managers, but undoubtely the new wave, in hoops and fantasy hoops, come from Europe.

In real basket, Yugoslavian duo, after going so close last year, beat Us team in worldchampionship, will take this year a revenge against LA and win NBA title.! ;)

Eurogurupies will battle until last day for the division title, and they have a large role in Puget sound division too.

Jcs will finish in top 10.
I had a very bad second part of the season (probably I didn't believe enough in final victory and relaxed too much), but I'm the mid season champion and will finish in top 25, as likely Swish City, Edgar and H20pg.

Next year will be ready for individual title too :)

ukula
Donor
ID: 7323106
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 12:26

I'm banking on a very angry Shaq to put up 60+ against the Sacramento Vandals tonight. It might happen as long as he doesn't get ejected in the 1st quarter for taking a swing at Mike Bibby.

Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 21:15

Glad none of you have Coleman. Can you believe he's hurt again and won't return. I mean I just can't believe DC is actually hurt. The ironman actually got hurt. OK enough of the sarcasm. His absence is giving even more mins to Kenny Thomas. He started out slow with 1 pt at the half, but has 19 TSNs now and doing well. Pierce and AI also had nice first halves.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 12:00

ukula - I really thought you would hold Shaq. I was all set to congratulate you on that decision, as you could have used all of your trades to pick up games elsewhere. Shaq was also a differentiation pick vs. everyone at the top (although some may pick him up after 2 days.)

Of course, if Jermaine puts up 75 TSNP again, then it's a brilliant move!

From my vantage point, I'm happy you made the move. Takes out more of the guesswork, and leaves me with a trade advantage over everyone else.

JCS
ID: 57081516
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 12:24

Everlong, if you read this knock 3 times and tell me how you're gonna use your last trade :-)

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 12:37

Everlong's pickup today of Gasol suggests that he is trying to differentiate.

He's got Webber to move, and can fill it with any position. An interesting (differentiation) pick might be Shaq - which he could even defer for a day, if he wants to keep others guessing.

Of course, Shaq looks like a differentiation pick from today's vantage point, but that's not necessarily how he'll look on Sunday.

ukula
Donor
ID: 57318116
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 12:51

Guru - Couldn't sit through Shaq's 2-day hole with only 6 days left. Not worth it in my opinion. If I kept him, I'd lose a game or two to Jermaine/Dirk and would probably gain only a game with someone else on the backside, so bye-bye Shaq.

Great One
Donor
ID: 41136511
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 13:32

sillyspheres holding DC and 0 trades in our auto-division war seperated by 50 points... also with Pierce - personally, I think he should rest up for the playoffs :)

I have shaq and kobe on that team - but shaq has two games left this week -assuming 50 per - which will be a huge advantage in the slot he has DC in.
I also am holding Kenny Thomas while he doesn't which is important.
Ricky Davis vs. Boozer
Chauncey (his best diff) vs. Jalen
and he also wins Marion vs. Malone
this is gonna be close..
Moving C Webb tonight with my last trade..
I can get anyone in the entire game - price or position is irrelevant.
so starting tomorrow, who do you guys see
from
CWebb> options include...
Duncan
Tmac
Marbury
Marion
Dirk
anyone I am missing? note - he holds Duncan.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 13:41

ukula - It's water under the bridge now, and I'm not trying to pick on you, but I think your rationale is flawed.

Picking up Jermaine from Shaq gains you one game. And unless you expect better than average performance from Jermaine ( or worse than average from Shaq),it's quite possible that 4 Jermaine games isn't really a "full game" better than 3 Shaq games. The fact that Shaq has 2 off days in a row is irrelevant. (Suppose he played on Sat-Mon-Wed instead of Sun-Tue-Wed? Would you have reacted differently?) All that matters is you point total at the end of the season. There are no awards for staying closer during the next 2 days.

Given that this trade only gains you one game, there are plenty of places that you could gain a game with a trade, most likeley next Tuesday. And since you seem to be trying to differentiate, holding Shaq would have been consistent with that philosophy.

If you had said that you expected Jermaine to finish stronger than Shaq, then the move made sense. Maybe that is your view, but that isn't what you said.

As I said, I'm glad you made the move. But had I been in your seat, I'm pretty sure I'd have held.

(BTW, I still think your team is my primary competition...which is why I've spent so much time analyzing your possibilities.)

SillySpheres at Work
ID: 132243114
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 15:11

re 62:

Its a 150 point lead...If it was only a 50, I probably wouldnt have used my last trade today. I also had an advantage earlier in the week b/c you had to move both Carter and Ben, while I only had Ben.

I moved Shaq to Kidd today to take away the your advantage with Kidd. If I were in your spot, I would not move Webber to Marion. If you do that, then you just move closer to my team and lose a chance for differentiation. You wont catch me by making your team more like mine.

Dont forget that I also have Jordan to your Kobe and Rose to your Laetnner.

I think the key will come down to 1) does DC play and 2) does Pierce play. Of course, that is barring any freak injuries.

Great One
Donor
ID: 41136511
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 15:16

i was psyched about Kidd too... think he is gonna get rolling heading into the playoffs...

ukula
Donor
ID: 24331113
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 15:42

Guru - I respectfully disagree. I think we have different philosophies that have led us to the same place. Taking a look at Shaq's last 10 games versus Jermaine's last 10 games gives us the following:

Shaq total points - 481
Jermaine total points - 487

Games 40 points or less:

Shaq - 4
Jermaine - 4

Games 60 or more:

Shaq - 1
Jermaine - 2

Pretty even I think you'd agree.

Jermaine has the potential to bang out 60+ points on any given night. I'd rather have four lottery tickets than three at this point in the season. How many guys available on Tuesday have that potential? I might add that I was kind of surprised that you didn't trade in Kobe for two Pierce games or Marion for two Iverson games. In my opinion you were too tentative. You had the trades why not try to go for the jugular? No offense taken, I just think I'm more of a risk-taker than you. We'll see what happens, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but if it doesn't I won't beat myself up for not being aggressive.

D.Dawkins
ID: 552572320
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 16:03

I also picked up Baby O from Shaq. I looked at it as three Baby O games vs two Shaq games because on Tuesday we get four more trades. I liked the fact that Baby O goes against Olando and Milwaukee where as Shaq is on the road against Portland and home against Denver. Portland plays good D and Denver could be a blow out.

I think you can justify it either way.

ukula
Donor
ID: 24331113
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 16:06

D. Dawkins - By the way, get off my *ss! :)

KnicksFan
Donor
ID: 3974252
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 16:13

With an 80 point lead in my division, I had 4 choices of how to use my last 2 trades (the second trade is back to the original player after 2 games):

1)Kobe->TMac (Seemed like the move to make, but I read something about resting him down the stretch)
2)Kobe->Kidd (Kidd underperforms whenever I have him, but being tied for the number 1 seed, at least I know he'll play)
3)Shaq->Dirk (My original plan...but I decided I'd rather have Shaq and one of those guards than Dirk and Kobe)
4)Shaq->Jermo (I never really considered this move)

So it came down to TMac or Kidd, and I took Kidd. My competitor went Kobe->TMac, so I'm hoping that the differentiation works in my favor.

My Team:
Kidd, Jason
Allen, Ray
Davis, Ricky
Jackson, Stephen
Duncan, Tim
Garnett, Kevin
Marion, Shawn
Boozer, Carlos
O'Neal, Shaquille
Ratliff, Theo

His Team:
McGrady, Tracy
Marbury, Stephon
Davis, Ricky
Billups, Chauncey
Duncan, Tim
Thomas, Kenny
Webber, Chris
Marion, Shawn
Laettner, Christian
Nowitzki, Dirk

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 16:30

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that going from Shaq ro Jermaine was a bad decision. It could very easily turn out to be the best one. However, your stated rationale about Shaq having back-to-back off days doesn't really matter, IMHO.

I'll admit I am playing less aggressively this week, and would have made some different moves had I been in chase mode rather than my actual situation. I'm playing it this way for several reasons:

1. By converving trades, I have greater capacity to react to late injuries or potential DNP situations.

2. By allowing others to move first, I have the ability to wait to see who the closest competitor will be before making my final moves.

3. There are plenty of opportunities this week - all the way until Tuesday - to pick up an extra quality game for each trade. By taking Pierce early, I would not have gotten an extra game vs. waiting; I simply would have gotten the extra game sooner. I was even more tempted to swap Marbury into Iverson yesterday. My heart said to do it. My head stopped me. If there is a late non-move that I live to regret, that might be the one.

If there were only one team in the hunt, it would be simpler to fashion a final strategy toward the finish. But with so many teams in contention, I want to allow the situation to shake out a bit before making any final commitments.

That said, this approach might primarily serve to keep others within striking distance, rather than going for the jugular. We've all seen a prevent defense blow up, or a basketball team start to run out the clock permaturely. There have been moments when I feel like that's my biggest risk.

But I think at this stage, the situation does dictate the optimal strategy, and thus far, I'm not uncomfortable with my approach.

It's been a hoot, reardless of the outcome.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 16:35

The last thing I have to say about basketball this year is "Webber is a sissy" Frustrating 2 weeks, part my fault, part circumstances.

BOL to all... on to salvage my baseball teams...

rfs

Dave R
Leader
ID: 12441623
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 17:02

Soundest stragegy IMO is to react rather than anticipate when you have the lead. Sensible approach is to pair up your competitors players by matching, again if you have the lead.
If you're trailing the agenda is different, you have to find a way to make up ground, in some ways that could be suicide.

The goal is #1, as I see it 2nd or 10th is no differenet. As my HS basketball used to say, " There's 2 places in life, 1st and all the rest"

DR Stars
ID: 0839516
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 17:41

According to Dave R, that means I'm tied for 2nd, woohoo!!!

624
ID: 8272617
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 17:56

Blooki, if you happen to read this, congrats on a good season. Forgetting to go Duncan -> Marion skimped me on 100+ TSNP which would look good right now since my lead is down to 10. Nice job cutting it down. You'll probably take it sooner or later.

Dave R
Leader
ID: 12441623
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 17:59

DR Stars, aren't we all

SmackDown
Donor
ID: 41127418
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 21:20

624
I though the same...like why didn't you take Marion? Hec you had a super lead. What happened and I was surprised you traded away Ostertag? He was doing great for you. I can not seem to catch maxweil for the love of it. He has Crawford and Boozer who have been tearing it up for him whiel I went with Parker over the past week and a half. What a mistake!

624
ID: 8272617
Fri, Apr 11, 2003, 22:26

Overslept...that is why I usually trade the people the night before, not during the AM.

Laettner is doing much better than Ostertag. I became sick of his 9 TSNP games.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 08:54

My worst team ended up with the top result in TSN last night. 459 TSNP. And it didn't even have Garnett (and his 71 TSNP).

First time this year that I've had a team ranked #1 for the day.

SillySpheres at Work
ID: 582492810
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 15:06

hrm, Coach K and Big Game have exactly the same roster.

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 15:16

Looks like the slime-ball dookie is playing for 3rd.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 15:18

Actually, BigZ was the one who made the move to match Coach K today. No other top 5's made a a move.

SillySpheres at Work
ID: 582492810
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 15:28

Great One:

What happened with Webber today? Your frozen roster still shows he is on your team.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sun, Apr 13, 2003, 12:03

No matter how I project it, I think I'll have to outguess Guru by about 125 TSPNs on the last day -- unlikely. Went PP/Webber to Kobe/Shaq today.

Guru can follow these moves in any number of ways on for Tuesday's games if he choses as he now has a 3-0 trade lead. With PP questionable (ankle) and Webber having to go, I had to make my moves today. All I can hope for is Kobe/Shaq to go off VS POR. The game really means something this year. I also considered AI/JO combo which would have left me much more cash to work with on Wednesday, but being a Laker fan, this gives me more enjoyment. Too bad no Knicks merit pick up (IMO).

rfs

Great One
Donor
ID: 41136511
Sun, Apr 13, 2003, 13:50

I overslept and wound up keeping Webber - I would have moved to TMac or Dirk - both of which would have been awesome - but I just went with CWebb>Shaq, so as long as he is solid the next couple, it should be ok. The money loss was irrelevant.
I am banking on Kobe/Shaq to go off in an effort to get homecourt. (note-this is coming from a Kings fan)

Great One
Donor
ID: 41136511
Sun, Apr 13, 2003, 20:25

actually, I went to Duncan on that team and Shaq on the other, but my roster wound up the same.
Shaq did just fine today.

ukula
Donor
ID: 9345146
Mon, Apr 14, 2003, 08:54

looks like I fell back to the dreaded 6th spot. My differentiation picks have done wonders for my opponents. Thanks Elton. All I know is there is going to be major dogfight for spots 3 through 6 on the last day. Congrats to the Guru and rfs - it looks like they have the top two spots sewed up. Where is Jimmy Chitwood when I need him?

ukula

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Apr 14, 2003, 09:14

ukula - you were the roster I was most concerned with early in the week. You had the biggest relative upside, but you're right - your differentiation picks did not step up to the challenge. It looks like you'll need a big Wednesday to pull up to 2nd or 3rd.

If my projections work out, there will be about 70 TSNP separating 2nd through 6th. RFS appears to have the leg up on 2nd place, but the field should close the gap on him over the next 2 days (unless Mo Pete and Jefferson go wild tomorrow).

I still have no idea who to pick up or drop on Wednesday. I'll probably try to avoid high-priced guys with meaningless games, but it's still unclear which teams will have nothing to play for.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Apr 14, 2003, 11:24

Dawkins picked up Kidd today. Ukula picked up Kurt Thomas. Ukula has one trade left, and no one else has any - until Weednesday.

I was thinking of taking McGrady today, but decided not to. With Doc Rivers stating that he'll reduce TMac's minutes in the last 2 games, I decided to go a different route. I did consider Kurt Thomas, but he just doesn't fit my "defensive" needs as well.

So I'll simply use my 3 trades tomorrow. My obvious options are to pick 3 of the following 4: Iverson, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq. I have a plan, but I may change my mind tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'll just sit on Garnett, as he looks like a good keeper for Wednesday.

J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Mon, Apr 14, 2003, 14:23

	•Guru (I)•		•Rockafellerskank•		Coach K.		•Big Game Hunter•		•D. Dawkins•
G	Davis, Ricky	38.2	Peterson, Morris	0.0	Kidd, Jason	48.3	McGrady, Tracy	49.8	Allen, Ray	37.6
G	Marbury, Stephon	0.0	Davis, Ricky	38.2	McGrady, Tracy	49.8	Iverson, Allen	0.0	Marbury, Stephon	0.0
G	Kidd, Jason	48.3	Bryant, Kobe	0.0	Allen, Ray	37.6	Kidd, Jason	48.3	Davis, Ricky	38.2
G	Allen, Ray	37.6	Allen, Ray	37.6	Iverson, Allen	0.0	Allen, Ray	37.6	Kidd, Jason	48.3
F	Duncan, Tim	49.0	Nowitzki, Dirk	46.6	Duncan, Tim	49.0	Jordan, Michael	37.4	Thomas, Kenny	0.0
F	Marion, Shawn	0.0	Jefferson, Richard	32.0	Jordan, Michael	37.4	Marion, Shawn	0.0	Duncan, Tim	49.0
F	Thomas, Kenny	0.0	Garnett, Kevin	0.0	Marion, Shawn	0.0	Thomas, Kenny	0.0	Marion, Shawn	0.0
F	Garnett, Kevin	0.0	Marion, Shawn	0.0	Thomas, Kenny	0.0	Duncan, Tim	49.0	Jordan, Michael	37.4
C	Laettner, Christian	32.7	Laettner, Christian	32.7	Nowitzki, Dirk	46.6	Laettner, Christian	32.7	O'Neal, Jermaine	0.0
C	Nowitzki, Dirk	46.6	O'Neal, Shaquille	0.0	Laettner, Christian	32.7	Nowitzki, Dirk	46.6	Nowitzki, Dirk	46.6
	Proj Tonight	252		187		301		301		257
	SWP	33442.5	33397.5		33276.0		33271.5		33240.5
	Behind Leader	---	-45.0		-166.5		-171.0		-202.0
	FV	$75.09	$70.62		$73.57		$75.67		$76.36
	Trades	3	0		0		0		0
	WWR	1	2		3		4		5

Guru
ID: 330592710
Mon, Apr 14, 2003, 18:13

Upon further review, picking Jordan tomorrow would be pretty stupid (since he plays tonight).

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Mon, Apr 14, 2003, 19:02

I wasn't about to point that out! ;)

Not that it matters.... You could pick up Ewing, Drexler & Hakeem and still keep a lead!

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 10:00

Using 30-day averages, I should have about a 200 TSNP lead over rfs after tonight's games. He will have about a 100 TSNP lead over teams 3-6. Those teams (Coach K, BigGameHunterZ, Dawkins, and ukula) will be separated by less than 10 TSNP.

Impact players for tonight:
Mo Pete (rfs only)
Kurt Thomas (ukula only)
Marbury (Guru & Dawkins)
Jermaine (Dawkins & ukula)
Kobe (Guru, rfs, & maybe ukula)
Shaq (Guru, rfs, & maybe ukula)

Iverson is on 4 of the 6 teams (missing from rfs & Dawkins)
Marion is missing only from ukula.

I'm assuming that ukula will pick up either Kobe or Shaq with his last trade. Either would be a differentiating pick vs. everyone but me and rfs.

In my matchup vs. rfs, I have Iverson, Kenny Thomas, & Marbury as unique players, while rfs has only Mo Pete.

Rfs still has a great deal of differentiation vs. the 3-6 teams. In addition to Mo Pete, he has Kobe and Shaq, which none of the other teams have (although ukula will probably get one of them). So the gap between rfs and 3-6 is still very much open to variation.

ukula
Donor
ID: 732159
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 11:04

Kurt Thomas and 'impact player' should NEVER be used in the same sentence.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 11:14

Well, he is having an impact...

ukula
Donor
ID: 732159
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 11:20

Yeah, a negative impact on my chances to move up in the standings.

Gman15
Leader
ID: 1531677
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 14:16

Why did you pick him?

100

ukula
Donor
ID: 563181512
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 14:21

He played two games and I figured even if he averaged 25 points/game I'd have 50 points without much risk versus picking someone else and possibly getting a 35. Oh well, you never know maybe he'll put up a 60 tonight. LOL.

101

Gman15
Leader
ID: 1531677
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 16:21

I went through that same thought process but settled on Allan Houston instead. As a Pacer fan, it was difficult to pick Knick players. I'm rooting for an Indiana victory and a high scoring game where Houston scores about 40 points (and KT grabs 20 rebounds for you). Good luck.

102

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Apr 15, 2003, 16:37

Kurt Thomas was a reasonable gambit. Over the past month, his worst back-to-back games produced 40 TSNP, while the best combo was 76, and the average was 50. Those sound comparable to Garnett-type numbers for a single game.

103

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 12:10

Final moves:
Marbury=>Wally
Considered Bonzi Wells, but I had a hunch that RFS picked up Wally as well.

R.Davis=>Brand
I figured I'd give Brand one final chance to torch my year. Actually, I also had a hunch that RFS would get Brand, since it potentially differentiated vs me, but matched vs. ukula. The Clips face Portland, so they are somewhat obliged to give it their best shot. And Brand's 78 TSNP outburst on Monday was hard to ignore.

Davis was a tough call, since I think he will probably play tonight, and always has a chance for a monster game. But the chance that he would sit out, or play less than full time, led me to sell.

Marion=>Dirk
I do think Dallas still has a big incentive to win tonight, since it would secure home court in a possible second round matchup vs Sacramento. Of course, they may very well lose to the Lakers in round 1, but that isn't tonight's issue. Marion was obviously not going to play a full game tonight.

Shaq=>Jermaine
Without a chance at the #4 seed, the almost think the Lakers would rather finish #6 and face Dallas. In any event, they could easily blow out Golden State, and rest Shaq again. Jermaine (and Indiana) still have a bigger incentive to win.

So, we wait and see.

104

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 12:26

My net matchup vs rfs tonight:
Me: Jermaine, Kenny Thomas, Brand, Dirk
RFS: McGrady, MO Pete, Jordan, Shaq

His foursome needs to top my foursome by 177.5 TSNP. I feel pretty secure, as long as my four guys show up tonight.

My net matchup vs ukula:
Me: Wally, Kenny Thomas, Dirk
ukula: Jordan, Antawn Jamison, KMart

No worries there, with a 239 TSNP lead.

RFS vs. ukula:
RFS: TMac, Mo Pete, Wally, Shaq
ukula: Brand, Jamison, KMart, Jermaine

RFS has a current lead of 61.5 TSNP. This will be a nail biter, I'm sure!

I haven't yet looked at the next several teams, but the battle for 2-6th still looks like a barnburner.

105

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 12:48

Thanks for doing all the work on comparisons Guru. Congratualtions on a well played last month. I agree that if unless your team (4 guys) get caught in traffic jams, you win. I've learned a lot in the past 30 days, but I guess that's why you're the Guru and I'm the skank!

I picked up Ricky Davis (injury)->MJ because he is amazing and has a flair for doing remarkable things in memorable momements. I don't think 50 real points is out of the question tonight.

I moved Dirk-> T-Mac because I belive he has plenty to play for. I agree that DAL has some incentive left, but T-Mac costs alot of $$ so buying him meant a big sell. Also, plays some D vs #3-6.

I moved Marion -> Wally because I believe Marion will not play significant mintes and Wally has alot to play for. I did want Bonzi, but I ran out of G spost and needed a F. I figured #3-6 would all buy himany way.. more D

I moved R Jefferson-> AI to play some D against owners 3-6. Also, RJ sux! Moving to him instead of K-mart at the time I did was a 67 point swing. At the time RJ had averaged 38.7 over his past 7 games with a 69.5 high. K-mart had just come back after 3 DNPs. Who knew?

106

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 22171417
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 12:50

Also, perhaps I am wrong, but if Minn & POR lose and LaL wins, LaL can get #4 via tie breakers...

... or do I have that incorrect. If I'm wrong, I goofed as that was my whole reason for moving Dirk-T-mac instead of Shaqw->T-Mac!

107

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 13:02

rfs - Bonzi is a GF. Not sure if that would have changed your moves.

More matchups -

RFS (+77) vs Coach K:
RFS: Mo Pete, Wally, Shaq
Coach K: Brand, Thomas, JermO

Hope I got all of this correct.

ukula (+15.5) vs Coach K:
ukula: Jamison, KMart
Coach K: Kenny Thomas, TMac

RFS (+81.5) vs BigGameH:
RFS: Wally, Mo Pete, Shaq
BigGameH: Bonzi, JermO, Dirk

ukula (+20) vs BigGameH:
ukula: Brand, Jamison, KMart
BGH: TMac, Dirk, Bonzi

RFS (+117.5) vs Dawkins:
RFS: Iverson, TMac, Kobe, Mo Pete, Wally, Shaq, Laettner
Dawkins: Alston, Davis, Boozer, Brand, Kenny Thomas, JermO, Dirk

ukula (+56) vs Dawkins:
ukula: Kobe, Iverson, Jamison, KMart, Laettner
Dawkins: Alston, Ricky Davis, Boozer, Kenny Thomas, Dirk

I won't bother with any more matchups. Suffice it to say that Dawkins has the most unique roster, with 7 differences vs. RFS and 5 vs. ukula.

Players on only one roster, teams 2-6:
RFS: Wally, MoPete, Shaq
ukula: Jamison, KMart
BigGame: Bonzi
Dawkins: Rafer Alston, Ricky Davis, Boozer

108

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 13:07

According to this morning's LA Times, the Lakers cannot get the #4 seed.

That's essentially why I sold Shaq.

109

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 13:12

Minnesota wins a 3-way tiebreaker, based on HTH records.

Minnesota is 5-3 (2-2 vs LA, 3-1 vs Portland)
Lakers are 4-4 (2-2 vs. each)
Blazers are 3-5 (1-3 vs. Minn, 2-2 vs. LA)

The Lakers were done in by their head-to-head loss in Portland last weekend.

111

ukula
Donor
ID: 223341611
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 14:07

Guru - Thanks for the matchups and congratulations in advance.

Let's see, I went Kenny Thomas > KMart because Thomas' production has dropped recently and I think KMart has more potential to bang out 50+. KMart (and the rest of the Nets) may try to right the ship before heading into the playoffs.

My next move was dropping Kurt Thomas and picking up Garnett. No analysis needed.

My third move was originally Ricky Davis > Wally and since I was relatively happy with the rest of my team I was going to bank the trade for the offseason. After nosing around a bit, I decided to go Wally > Jamison with the last trade because Jamison has been doing ok and it might be an incentive to have a nice game versus the defending champs going into the offseason.

I didn't make any moves in anticipation of others because I have one team in front of me and three nipping at my heels behind me. Any thoughts about what others would do was fruitless in my opinion. I just picked the best players I could and I'll hope for the best.

This was a good battle to the end and whatever happens tonight is out of my hands. The worst I can do is 6th which was beyond my wildest expectations at the beginning of the season. Now maybe I can concentrate on baseball.

Congratulations for a fine season to Guru, rfs, Coach K, Big Game Hunter, and Chocolate Thunder.

112

Tortfeasor
Donor
ID: 55912113
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 14:24

Guru-

Sometimes, if I make a bad move or I am out of trades, I blame the luck factor. But you seem to be in the hunt every basketball season. I don't think that's just luck. Congratulations Guru. It's amazing that I can be in the top 100 and still be so far behind you.

113

D.Dawkins
ID: 552572320
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 15:11

Nice job with all the match ups Guru. I didn't put too much thought into my trades and it cost me. I made them right when I got up and didn't get the information on Ricky Davis until after I made my trades. Oh well.

I'm just happy the season has come to an end. I made a strong run to the top, but my team ran out of gas and limped to the finish. I'd consider my season a sucess with a 6th place finish.

Congrats to you Guru for taking the top prize. You did an excellent job managing your team the last few weeks. Once you past rfs, you never looked back.

114

It's me, Jessica
ID: 46371615
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 17:10

Guru- just curious as to how you found out that info on Ricky Davis' injury. Both Cleveland newspaper links from Rotoworld mention nothing about it at all.

115

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 18:06

RotoWire had a note about Ricky's ankle.

They referenced an item from the Willoughby News-Herald

116

biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 20:04

Rotowire. Worth every penny (or 100,000 of them)!

Congrats Guru. You the..um..Guru!

117

Ender
ID: 45114615
Thu, Apr 17, 2003, 09:26

It's a done deal. Congrats, Guru!

118

jumpball
Sustainer
ID: 33050298
Thu, Apr 17, 2003, 09:57

Congratulations Guru!!

119

DR Stars
ID: 0839516
Thu, Apr 17, 2003, 10:26

Congrats Guru!!!

Forum: hoopPage 9391Subject: End game

Forum: hoop
Page 9391
Subject: End game