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| Posted by: Tastethewaste
- [418201314] Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 12:26
They want to come home |
| | | 1 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 20641144
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 12:31
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Wow, such disrespect to their superiors is a surprise. I can understand the disappointment of being told you'd be out of there, but this is the first open complaints I've heard.
pd
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| | | 2 | Tree, also @ work
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 13:26
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all i can say is that it's about damned time these poor folks started speaking their minds instead of regurgitating the rhetoric of this country's "leadership."
peace,
Tree
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| | | 3 | John Budge
Donor
ID: 51042247
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 13:33
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Asked by a reporter what his message would be for Rumsfeld, another said: "I would ask him why we are still here. I don't have any clue as to why we are still in Iraq."
I don't think Rumsy has a clue either.
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| | | 4 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 20641144
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 13:35
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It's their job to stay quiet if their personal feelings are at odds with their mission or their superiors. Troops who openly challenge their orders are a bad, not a good, sign.
pd
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| | | 6 | skinneej
Sustainer
ID: 40625911
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 14:03
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Don't be too quick to think that a couple stories like this are felt by the majority of the troops. Sure, there are some that are upset and rightfully so. If you're told your coming home, and then that keeps changing you'd be upset as well. However, most troops understand that is what happens when you are involved in something as unpredictable as war. They keep on doing their job even though they gripe and complain at times (just like I do when my boss goes back on something that he said).
I listened to a wounded marine this morning on a local radio program describe what he saw happening in Iraq and it changed my perspective. I too felt that things were getting past where we as a country wanted them to be, and that the troops probably were feeling some bitterness. He said that is completely not the case with the great majority of the troops. When asked if morale was low, he said something to the effect of, not for mission purposes, but that it was tough going months without being able to get mail or call home. He says that doesn't mean that they believe that the mission is a faliure by any means, but that this is what is necessary to root out the remaining elements of terror. Over there, he said they hear very little of what is going on in the political circles and really don't care. He said he was pretty pissed off after returning to the states at some of the stories he hears and news reports that he believes are for pure political gain (possibly like the one above).
I caught a MTV special before we went into Afghanistan and they had singled out a handful of army troops that were heading over in a few days that said they didn't want to go and didn't think they should have to go. Some said they only joined the army to get the GI bill. While that may be the case with some, it was obvious that the program was slanted to be anti-military and anti-govt (Ok, it was MTV so what do you expect).
This marine got his elbow blown off by a sniper and had his best friend he met in boot camp take a bullet to the forehead not more than two feet away from him. He said it was tough to leave his division and he was ready to go back when he was cleared (after just having his 12th surgery to rebuild the bone and muscle in his elbow) He's told he'll have about 60-70% full use when he heals and he has every intention of going back to help complete the mission. No matter what you feel toward the military, the current administration, or our other leaders you have to be proud of guys like this and know that most of us don't have a tenth of that nads that these guys do.
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| | | 7 | Tastethewaste
ID: 418201314
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 14:09
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Well feelings of resentment like this "You call Donald Rumsfeld and tell him our sorry asses are ready to go home. Tell him to come spend a night in our building." will build when one lives in a 2 tier system that resembles fascism. The poor/soldiers want some empathy and Rumsfeld doesnt communicate well to the people doing his biddings. Lack of communication can turn into resentment really fast. Let's just hope Rumsfeld doesnt let his ego get in the way and he lets this slide, because although this soldier is breaking rules he hardly deserves to be court marshalled for this IMO. We need to support the troops and not lie to them. They feel stranded and disconnected out there i would imagine.
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| | | 8 | Pancho Villa
Donor
ID: 533817
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 15:14
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Although it might be a little different with an all volunteer military than the previously conscripted one, I would imagine not having access to chicks and booze would be a huge morale issue. Baghdad isn't exactly Saigon, Munich, Seoul, London, Tokyo or Honolulu. If you don't think 19 and 20 year old soldiers wish to partake in said activities, you probably haven't thought about it much.
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| | | 9 | Tree, also @ work
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 17:13
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madman - Unlike Tree, I cannot support willful violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It was wrong when the troops rebelled under Clinton, it's wrong now.
i cannot claim to know the Uniform Code of Military Justice. i do think it's a shame that soldiers, apparently, have to give up their basic constitutional rights to protect this country.
it's ironic. they can fight for the Constitution, but don't get the rights afforded by it.
peace,
Tree
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| | | 10 | UGABravesDawg
ID: 266191611
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 17:44
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Tree, it is a volunteer service. They enter knowing they cannot speak against the military.
but don't get the rights afforded by it. - when out of uniform, they can say whatever they want. It is when they are in uniform that they cannot speak against their commanding officers or their duties. It would undermine the entire military to allow people to speak against it while in uniform.
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| | | 11 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 20641144
Wed, Jul 16, 2003, 17:49
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The most important part of the military is maintaining the chain of command. A soldier who speaks against his superior officer upsets that. It's actually pretty basic stuff: Go into the military, and you lose the ability to openly criticize your superiors.
I don't think it's altogether unusual. I don't know of any companies where you can publicly disparage your bosses without repercussion.
pd
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| | | 12 | Madman
Donor
ID: 398591212
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 10:14
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Actually, most soldiers do keep their free speech rights ... officers are the only ones bound by article 88. I suppose it is ironic that the defense of liberty can best be accomplished by an organization that does not practice it.
But, this is par for the course and one of the great struggles of the law in our nation's history. In other ways, this same dilemma is reflected in our war on terror.
Seriously, that first link of mine from findlaw does a great job of explaining the situation, the history, and why it is the way it is.
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| | | 13 | yankeeh8tr
Donor
ID: 54643178
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 10:35
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Wha? I'm on the same side of the issue as Mad? Oh happy day!
I have to say that if any of these punks were in any unit I served in I would have been happy to help serve up a little frontier justice on their non-hacking @sses. From day one at Parris Island you're told that you've enlisted to defend democracy - not practice it.
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| | | 14 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 10:39
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You can always find disgruntled soldiers, sailors and airmen. I find it upsetting that ABC would air video of what some soldiers were saying. I have no problem with ABC saying we found 'soldiers that are upset, hate Bush, hate Rumsfeld'. But to knowingly put the soldiers on air when you have them blowing off steam in a hostile place for news that could get the soldiers in a little hot water is in poor taste IMHO. And if they didn't know, they should not be covering the military. But I guess just saying there are soldiers upset would not have been as good for ratings. Not as shocking. Watching the news has become as usefull as reading the 'National Enquire'.
Listening to new CENTCOM yesterday {Gen Abazaid ?) who left for Iraq today, I believe there was some miscommunication [helped by media] about when 3rd ID is coming home.
Just ask someone what they ae feeling when standing watch or have duty on Christmas Day. Ask them what they feel when you keep them on detachment just an extra two weeks even in peace time. Military members are always disgruntled. Luckily most of the time you don't have the media shoving a mike and a camera in your face letting you hang yourself on national TV. I know there are many times I'm glad no one had the camera running on some things I said about my superiors.
If journalists held themselves to half the standard they expect when reporting news rather than trying to make it, most would have to resign.
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I heard Tim Russert this morning say he has heard that there have even been a few suicides in Iraq. Sounds shocking.
Did you know that 1,513 active duty military committed suicide while Clinton was in office. And you had 423 die from homicides. Another 3,955 died in accidents [on and off duty] and 238 from hostile fire and terrorism [did you see every one of those as 'breaking news']. Average FTS end strength was 1.63 million per year.
But if I just stated that, I would also be distorting the facts.
You had 2,027 commit suicide while Reagan was in office. You had 860 die in homicides, 10,651 die in accidents [on and off duty] and 515 from hostile fire and terrorism. Average FTS end strength was 2.30 million per year.
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But I'm glad the democrats and news media are suddenly so concerned about the the well being of the military. But for some silly reason I think they have an agenda. And in the long run I hope the public can see through it.
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| | | 15 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 20641144
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 11:06
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Good post, Steve. I was going to email you for a comment on this thread in case you didn't get to it.
I don't see this as a Democratic thing, however. There's no evidence that the Dems were the ones looking for disgruntled troops--seems to me that an unthinking, scoop-seeking ABC News team was behind it.
pd
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| | | 16 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 11:33
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PD - ABC feature is not a dem thing, but if you catch C-Span, or what little news I watch lately, dem's 'concern' for troops [watch Ted Kennedy yesterday in a screaming match with Ted Stevens about some ammendment he wanted added to Defense Spending Bill] in a shooting gallery [Robert Byrd].
NOTE: figures I used are from DOD link that I do not currently have at the tip of my keyboard but that I probably can find. Just copied into a spread sheet for my own personal info from some site I was at [think it was best of web one day at OPINION JOURNAL - but a few weeks ago]. Has data from 1980 - 2002. I was comparing yearly numbers for active full time equivalent adjusted to 250,000 [strength in Iraqi theater at one point] level per year to compare what happens 'normally' to 250,000 troops per year.
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| | | 17 | Baldwin
ID: 111112015
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 13:48
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Let's look at Saddam's assets:
- Virtually unlimited billions, he can payoff the world's terrorist producers for their propaganda support and steady stream of volunteers.
- Enuff Iraqi Fedayeen and foreign al-qeada types to do at least one suicide mission per day causing one USA casualty per day.
- A populace scared to death there is even a remote chance of an American premature pullout and a return to Saddam's rule.
- Western media willing to turn every single casualty into sopa opera drama giving Saddam full effect for every operation of his.
- Anti-American westerners galore eager to do everything in their power to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
- The Viet Nam paradigm.
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| | | 19 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 20641144
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 14:48
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Baldwin, I think Saddam would find it difficult to cash a check these days.
pd
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| | | 20 | Baldwin
ID: 111112015
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 14:53
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I think Saddam has stashes of billions all over Iraq like the ones troops have already found. You are slipping lately PD.
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| | | 21 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 20641144
Thu, Jul 17, 2003, 14:56
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Ha. Well, to be honest, it's difficult to hit such a speculative target as yours.
pd
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| | | 22 | Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 17:37
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ColdFury I hope the picture will go through for you of this Army soldier in Iraq with his tiny ‘plot’ of grass in front of his tent. It’s heartwarming! Here is a soldier stationed in Iraq , stationed in a big sand box. He asked his wife to send him dirt ( U.S. soil), fertilizer, and some grass seed so that he can have the sweet aroma, and feel the grass grow beneath his feet. When the men of the squadron have a mission that they are going on, they take turns walking through the grass and the American soil — to bring them good luck. 
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