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| Posted by: Baldwin
- [6920139] Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 07:39
What do you get when...
1) Polls show she could walk off with 43% of the vote in a Democratic primary.
2) The Democratic field is unusually weak.
3) Her moneyman already owns second place stalkinghorse he can pull out of race.
4) Filing dealines loom for early primaries.
5) World's second biggest liar denies she is running while also stepping up vitrioloic anti-Bush rhetoric.
6) Accuses Bush of the very sorts of conduct she and her husband engaged in to hide the true path to the source of the stench.
7) She schedules speeches at sites of important primaries.
8) The movie "The Hunger" based on her true life insatiable pursuit of power over the dead bodies of others.
That's right villagers, it's time once again to sharpen the stakes, prepare the torches and gather with pitchforks.
Farah - editor of WND |
| | | 1 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 08:19
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One more irresistable temptation for the Queen of the Damned...ONE year before the next presidential election in the United States, voters are evenly divided between the president, George Bush, and a Democratic challenger, a new poll showed yesterday.
Support for Mr Bush has fallen to the point where 48 per cent of those surveyed said they would vote for him if the election were held today, while 47 per cent said they would vote for the Democratic Party’s nominee. Five per cent did not know who they would vote for.
The findings, which appeared in yesterday’s Washington Post, demonstrate that three years after one of the closest and most bitterly contested elections in US history, in which Mr Bush narrowly defeated the former vice-president, Al Gore, the nation is again polarised.
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| | | 2 | sarge33rd
ID: 31820217 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 08:22
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ahhhhhhhhhh the 'conservative christian right'. When its a strong Dem female, she's a bi-tch'. But let someone speak against former First Lady Nancy....and they'll defend her unto death.
Just what Baldwin exactly, is your 'fear' of Hillary? Is it because she's intelligent?, well spoken?, strong willed?, ambitious? Tell me, which of those traits do you NOT want to see in a national leader?
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| | | 3 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 08:54
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The smug liar who destroys her enemies [travel office-gate,etc,etc,etc], the socialist, the woman who wants a village [read federal government] to raise our kids, the criminal businesswoman [cattle-gate/S&L raider/land scam artist/fraudulent lawyer], she of enemy lists on a scale Nixon never dreamed of, sex crime enabler, Yankee fan, supporter of criminals and terrorists, obstructor of justice, vampire.
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| | | 4 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 09:05
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I'm sure you're recruiting many to your cause, Baldwin.
Sarge, let them rage--the truth is I'd rather they spent their energies on false goals. It simply shows them for the empty gongs they are.
Also, when the Right starts complaining about how personal the attacks on Bush has become, you can send them to the WND to demonstrate how much they still have to go.
pd
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| | | 5 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 09:06
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Oh, one more thing: With this thread, Baldwin, your "Liberals invent the news, not report it" card has been revoked.
pd
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| | | 6 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 1629107 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 09:08
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Now now, PD. You know that if Baldy adhered to the standards he demands from liberals he'd never have anything to say.
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| | | 7 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 09:10
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Alright I'll admit, Hillary and I made up that one about the Yankee fan. 8]
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| | | 8 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 09:14
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| | | 9 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 09:19
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| | | 10 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 17101338 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 09:44
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The following is offered as a response to (and in the spirit of Baldwins post 3. That means it will be over the top, unprovable and partisan sillyness...The smug liar Who condemns corporations like Enron that did the same things that his company Harken Energy did with his approval. Who reneged on a campaign pledge to oppose federal funding for stem cell research. Who reversed a position he took during the presidential campaign on implementation of an international treaty to curb greenhousegases. Who backed off a campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide emissions from power plants, after furious lobbying from the coal industry. Who criticised John McCain for using a consultant who wrote for and helped edit "Southern Partisan", calling the the magazine "offensive" and "out of line," then appointed John Ashcroft, who wrote for "Southern Partisan", AG. Who served on the Board of Directors of the Carlyle Group, owned by Osama Bin Laden's family. who destroys her (his) enemies a list of the Bushes "Fosters"... the socialist, the woman who wants a village [read federal government] to raise our kids, you got me there, Baldy - W isn't a woman and supports deep cuts in child care and education funding the criminal businesswoman as opposed to the honest, open corprate responsibility we've seen from W in and out of office. Harken? Enron? Family ties to the S&L scandal that saddled the US taxpayer with 1/4 of the national debt load. The line of questionable, illegal, and unethical businesses practices goes back at least to Prescott Bush - c'mon my conspiracy buff - surely you're not going to now refute that Prescott profited almost directly from places like Auschwitz. she of enemy lists on a scale Nixon never dreamed of, sex crime enabler, Yankee fan, supporter of criminals and terrorists,Bush-9/11 scandal for dummies obstructor of justice, vampire.
I will say this though - neither Baldwin or I will vote for her - goddamn Yankee fan...*laughing*
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| | | 11 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 1629107 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 10:41
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Yh8er, OT question,
Are you now a resident of USVI? If so, you are no longer able to vote in national elections?
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| | | 12 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 11:07
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then appointed John Ashcroft, who wrote for "Southern Partisan"
Ashcroft was interviewed by Southern Partisan; he did not write for it. The 1998 issue in which it appeared also contained, quoting the editor: "The cover story is about Hank Williams. I don't think it concentrates on the fact that he's a white man," Sullivan says. "A review of the Dinesh D'Souza book about the rise of Ronald Reagan, a column about fishing, one about auto racing, a review of the movie, 'The Apostle' ..." link
Bush spokesperson Ari Fleischer called the writings of Richard Quinn, the consultant in question, offensive and out of line. Quinn had edited the magazine during an earlier peiord, when it was harder edged.
Toral
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| | | 13 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 17101338 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 11:54
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I'm still a legal resident of New York, MITH - my gig in USVI is only 28 months and I enjoy paying ridiculiously high NY taxes waaay too much to renounce my citizenship in the Empire state.
So yeah, I can still vote.
And thank you for the correction toral - I was under the impression Ashcroft had been a contributor. Silly watered down internet sites...my bad for not looking deeper.
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| | | 14 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 12:46
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Well, you had me until post 7, Baldwin. :)
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| | | 15 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 14:34
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WND is way off base here. Hillary's time is 2008.
My only curiosity is whether she is Machiaveliian enough to hope in her heart that the Dems lose in 2004 to set her up; and further, whether she is Machiavellian enuf to sabotage the Dems in 2004 if she could (my guess is not; but she is a very ambitious person and I'm not prepared to rule it out 100%)
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| | | 16 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 14:44
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Hillary... Machiavellian enough! In years to come that term may be passe and replaced by Clintonian.
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| | | 17 | Baldwin
ID: 391047115 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 14:45
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A) I always expected it would be 2008 but her actions say otherwise and Bush is surprisingly weak if the latest poll can be believed. Don't underestimate her desperate hunger.
B) She and her husband have done nothing but undercut the Dem candidates to date.
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| | | 18 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 14:55
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I don't have a cite, Baldwin, but a recent poll I saw showing Bush ahead of a generic Democrat by only 3 points showed Hillary in person 13 points behind him. (Bush all led all actual people by more than 3).
Course maybe the wording of the question, asking people to choose between President Bush and "that Hillary witch" had something to do with it ;)
Toral
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| | | 19 | katietx
ID: 109311616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 15:19
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Having been told (on these boards-more than once) that I'm a "yes woman" for sarge....maybe this will put to rest the fact that we always see eye to eye
...ahhhhhhhhhh the 'conservative christian right'. When its a strong Dem female, she's a bi-tch'. But let someone speak against former First Lady Nancy....and they'll defend her unto death.
Just what Baldwin exactly, is your 'fear' of Hillary? Is it because she's intelligent?, well spoken?, strong willed?, ambitious? Tell me, which of those traits do you NOT want to see in a national leader?
I would not in a million years vote for Hillary if she was running for dog catcher. But then, she already caught her dog, didn't she?
Yes, I'm a conservative, so I don't like her politics. Aside from that...the woman has stayed with a deceitful, philandering pig of a man to further her own objectives. Would she have risen to the spot she currently holds without riding his coattails? I think not.
Intelligent...perhaps...but for me (and many of my friends) her intelligence doesn't extend to her sense of right and wrong.
Yes, yes...go ahead and blather about what a great president Clinton was. The fact that he felt perfectly right in cheating on his wife many times, and the fact that she knew long before the Monica incident, tells me exactly what kind of people these two are. Morals? None.
Oh, and as for Nancy Regan, I really don't have any feelings one way or the other. Can't remember anytime that I've defended her.
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| | | 20 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 15:31
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You go girl! Katie is off the hizzle fa shizzle dizzle.
'Praticing my eubonics'
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| | | 21 | sarge33rd
ID: 44958917 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 15:40
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gddmn it GW, do NOT encourage her! Hell man, I have to go home after work tonight. Last thing I want, is to listen to her bad mouth the Clintons with a gusto that I doubt even Baldwin could muster.
*dialing Holiday Inn to ensure they have a spare room in case I need a warm place to crash and burn tonight* lol
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| | | 22 | katietx
ID: 109311616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 15:42
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remember your friend "bambi?"
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| | | 23 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 15:43
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Sarge, Don't be hatin'.
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| | | 24 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 1629107 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 15:45
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'Praticing my eubonics'
Uh... why?
I'll never understand why conservatives place more emphasis on the morality of infidelity than morality issues that are actually associated with the office an official might hold. Now before Blowhard and Houpt and others jump on me with your list of favorite Clinton atrocities, I know you guys have all kinds of issues with his policies and actions in office. But the fact is, a few regulars here excluded, 95% of the gripes I hear about the Clintons are about marital infidelity. I'll take a cheating husband or a wife that sticks with him over special interest panderer who awards obscene no-bid contracts to corporations with undenyable and still current ties to the administration in shameless acts of conflicts of interest any day. But that's just me.
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| | | 25 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 1629107 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 15:51
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And by the way, when has any regular at this forum ever accused Katie of being Sarge's "yes woman"?
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| | | 26 | Baldwin
ID: 391047115 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 16:01
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MITH
Only 5% of my gripes with either Clinton involve their sexual morality. Everthing does boil down to character however.
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| | | 27 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 16:05
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I'll never understand why conservatives place more emphasis on the morality of infidelity than morality issues that are actually associated with the office an official might hold.
I don't myself. But I do place a great emphasis on the morality of perjury by elected officials, especially the President. Particularly unnecessary perjury.
(When I say unnecessary perjury, I am agreeing with Alan Dershowitz. As soon as Clinton found out he was going to be deposed about Monica Lewinsky and his numerous other close friends, he should simply have declared that despite SCOTUS' ruling that he could deal with the Paula Jones case without unnecessary harm to his ability to be President, he should have declared that while he respected SCOTUS, it was his own decision how much an individual legal case would obstruct his ability to be President. If necessaryu, he should have walked out of the deposition when the 1st question not relating to Paula Jones was asked. He should have said that his political adversaries were planning to call into question the personal lives of many women he had known, which would besmirch them unfairly. He should have said that while he was not admitting any allegations, he was instructng his lawyers not to defend the Jones lawsuit, and only to argue the issue of damages, which would not take any of his time. He would have avoided having to perjure himself (or come as close as he did), saved himself a great deal of money (since he ended up paying Jones more than he otherwise would have had to), and spared the country a great agony.)
Dead issue then, papers probably not reporting the Monica Lewinsky allegations, no Starr report, no impeachment.
He probably got bad advice from his lawyer, Bob Bennett. Because he lied to his lawyer too. The man is just a born liar.
Toral
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| | | 28 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 16:07
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I am not knowledableable on what company would of been best to quickly and effiently start the reconstruction of the electrical plants and oil fields of Iraq, I assume it was Halliburton, but expediency was and should have been the chief concern. Unless there was a company better suited for the beginning stages of reconstruction directly after the war, the Bush administration made the right move. However, I do not agree with any further no bid contracts.
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| | | 29 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 1629107 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 16:10
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If you guys would read thru my post, I'm noty calling you to task for the gripe I bring up in post 24. My issue is with the bizarre moral priorities conservatives in general display with their rants about Bill and Hill's marital infidelity as their primary reasons for disliking him. I am well aware that the arguments of Toral, Blowhard, Houpt and others are broader and also much better honed.
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| | | 31 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 16:48
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MITH, I believe most men understand Clinton's primordial need to spread his seed to different females. It is geneticly present in all males. Although most of us handle it better.
Many of Clintons indiscretions, while readily perceived, lack the definiteness of DNA evidence, therefore, in most debates his infidelity and perjury are called to the forefront, as they can not be denied.
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| | | 32 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 17:17
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I do think marital infidelity is relevant; I just wouldn't put it at the top of the list, or very high. I think it is especially relevant when it indicates how a man responds to being placed to a position of power, and how he uses that power.
In Ontario, Conservative Premier Mike Harris, a small-towner through-and-through, dropped his small-town wife when he became Premier (=Governor in the U.S.) and took up with a succession of bleached blondes. His successor, Ernie Eves, also a small-town guy, also dropped his wife and took up with a rich fellow Cabinet Member (Isobel Bassett). I think it said something about them as people, and is a large part of the reason why I don't like them. Though like they say, "How you gonna keep them down on the farm once they've seen Paree'") Their behaviour was correlative to, I believe, an arrogance their government developed that led to their trouncing last month.
Newt Gingrich fails by the same standard applied. The difference is that while Harris, Eves, and Gingrich get 40 out of 100, Clinton gets negative marks, if that is possible.
I also believe Juanita Broadhurst's (unproven, but very credible to me) allegations that Clinton was not only a womanizer but a rapist. Whole different story. And I think that it's at least fairly widely accepted that Clinton, while Arkansas governor, had Arkansas state troopers act as his pimps/procurors.
It's a matter of how a person uses power over other people -- realization that appointemnt/election to a high office demands that you isolate your own human desires and lusts (normal, natural in the sense that the natural man would have them) and have enough self-control not to take advantage of the powers and privileges that you have been afforded by the people.
It may be a matter of style as well, related to the above. Ronald Reagan, by nature a casual man, never took his suit jacket off in the Oval Office, while Bill Clinton seemed ready to remove however many articles of clothing as were necessary to gratify his lusts of the moment.
Toral
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| | | 33 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 17:20
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Toral, I think the main difference for you boils down to your belief in the rape allegations. Very serious charges (I remember being shocked when they came out), but IMO they just didn't seem believable after I read as much as I could.
Take away the rape and you've got yourself a Gingrich.
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| | | 34 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 17:48
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PD, I don't think Newt ever used his governmental power to procure women. He found them (or them him) on his own.
Toral
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| | | 35 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 17:59
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PD-I don't believe you can have 2 more totally opposite men. Gingrich is a man firmly set in his convinctions, you may agree or disagree with his ideas, but it is clear where he stands. Clinton is more of a politician, whose ideology can be swayed by the current political climate. I can tell where Gingrich will come out on a position, it is always the hard line right-wing one. While Dick Morris can forecast every move the Clintons make.
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| | | 36 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 217351118 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:10
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Toral 34, I don't know much about Newt's marital affairs, but unless we're talking about prostitutes or some seriously appearance-challenged women, I'm having a hard time believing that. Guys who look like Newt and aren't Speaker of the House don't have an easy time with attracive women. Unless you can say that you know that Newt actively kept his job a secret from his mistrisses, I don't see how you can make such a claim. If you hold a high-level and visible government position it's almost impossible for that not to be a factor in your success in procuring women.
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| | | 37 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:11
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You might be right Greg--after all, Newt followed through on the old family value of a good, well-placed divorce notice, while Clinton chose the much easier public humiliation while working things through with his wife.
"We had oral sex. He prefers that modus operandi because then he can say, 'I never slept with her.'" Yeah, no difference there.
Large book deal Another amazing non-similarity.
Love this quote from the first link:
"If the country today were to move to the left, Newt would sense it before it started happening and lead the way." - Dot Crews, his campaign scheduler throughout the 1970s.
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| | | 38 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:16
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Here we go again. How typical of the Left to insert Newt Gingrich into every argument.
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| | | 39 | katietx
ID: 109311616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:24
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RE: #25 - quite a few times MITH...can't remember the exact threads, but it may have been one of the trolls.
I'll never understand why conservatives place more emphasis on the morality of infidelity than morality issues that are actually associated with the office an official might hold.
Morality and character go hand-in-hand, IMO. If your morals/character tell you its just fine and dandy to dally outside your marriage, then lie about it knowing all the time there is evidence to the contrary...what else might you lie about?
Just because I'm a conservative doesn't mean I don't hold Reps. up to the same standard. Am I upset with Bush right now...yes. But given the slate of Dems. trying to run for office, well.....
at any rate, to coin a phrase, "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior."
A woman who can turn a blind eye to the loose morals of her husband, all the while saying she isn't "some little stand by her man" type, could easily look the other way over other things she doesn't find morally reprehensible.
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| | | 40 | sarge33rd
ID: 44958917 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:31
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STLL lmao over the notion of katie being a 'yes man' to ANYONE...let alone moi.
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| | | 41 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 217351118 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:46
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MBJ How typical of the Left to insert Newt Gingrich into every argument.
How typical for conservatives to push blame unfair onto the left.
Katie Am I upset with Bush right now...yes.
A woman who... could easily look the other way over other things she doesn't find morally reprehensible.
But still, Katie, you'd endorse Bush over Hillary in spite of his moral shortcomings - not just (as you see it) in some failure to leave his cheating but politically powerful spouse, but in his responsibilities as CiC - and still cite Hillary's marital morality as you reasoning.
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| | | 42 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:46
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PD- I was talking about political convictions not moral ones. Any man can be tempted by a "willowy blonde" except for Sarge, since his woman views this forum and the Richard Simmons types, etc... but I digress.
If anyone thinks the Clinton marriage is anything more than a vehicle of political convience, they definitely have inhaled.
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| | | 43 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 18:58
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to push blame unfair ...
I'm pretty sure I can't diagram that sentence.
I's jest copyin' ya'll. You're always barkin' when someone brings up Clinton.
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| | | 44 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 217351118 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 19:02
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unfairly push blame upon
But you do miss my point. Who brought up Newt?
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| | | 45 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 19:07
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I dunno. Surely I can't be penalized for not reading this thread overly carefully?
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| | | 46 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 20:04
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If anyone thinks the Clinton marriage is anything more than a vehicle of political convience, they definitely have inhaled.
A clearer example of speculative posting would be difficult to find, even in this forum.
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| | | 47 | katietx
ID: 109311616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 20:43
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Any man can be tempted by a "willowy blonde" except for Sarge, since his woman views this forum and the Richard Simmons types, etc.
Ha! As if...its just that he knows if I found out, he could look fondly, but not participate in any further action with said willowy blonde or any other willowy anything.
But still, Katie, you'd endorse Bush over Hillary in spite of his moral shortcomings - not just (as you see it) in some failure to leave his cheating but politically powerful spouse, but in his responsibilities as CiC - and still cite Hillary's marital morality as you reasoning.
At this point, MITH, yes I would. Given that those were my two choices. I think Bush definitely overstated the reasoning behind our going to war against Iraq. However, and this is a big however for me, I also feel it was totally justified. Now, whether he was led down the primrose path by his advisors or he pulled an LBJ (we are winning the war against communism in Veet-Nam) I haven't a clue as to the truth.
Just to satisfy those who think I couldn't endorse a Democratic woman for office....as soon as another Barbara Jordan comes along, she'll get my vote hands down!
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| | | 48 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 20:47
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Loved Jordan. Awesome woman and leader.
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| | | 49 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 21:22
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"A clearer example of speculative posting would be difficult to find, even in this forum."-PD
And right next to this thread is one were Katie speculates whether we acually landed on the moon.
This goes back to Mattingly's post on why Clinton's infidelity is primary reason he is disliked. It is not the affairs that many care about, but it is the only point Democrats can't refute and if not for a stained dress, even that would be denied.
I do not have a link to the television reports where I saw how the Clinton's are rarely seen together and it is widely known by those close to the Clintons their reasons for staying married, but you would have to at least admit that there is a better chance they have a marriage of convience, than the moonshot was a hoax.
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| | | 50 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 21:31
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I was hoping this thread would morph into a discussion of J-Lo and Ben's relationship, actually. It probably has as much value as any.
As comes to Bill Clinton, however, I believe that many Republicans simply have no idea of how to handle a moderate. They have the idea in their head that a Democrat has to be a Far Left politician, and when it turns out that one follows a non-Far Left position rather than change their prejudice they decide that the Democrat must have "no political convictions." Republicans really have no idea of how to handle someone like Clinton, who is both for Affirmative Action and the death penalty, who can increase minumum wages while fighting for NAFTA. Republicans can't understand him, so they have to demonize him.
pd
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| | | 51 | katietx
ID: 109311616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 21:56
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PD, I don't demonize him any more than I would another who has no morals whatsoever, be he Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Martian, whatever.
Eisenhower was known to be quite the womanizer and had I been old enough to vote at the time, I would not have voted for him.
Character, values, morals...that's what counts for me-not party affiliation. I may be a conservative, but I'm not a registered, card-carrying, died-in-the-wool Republican.
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| | | 52 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 21:58
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katie, I never said you would--I've known you long enough on this forum (and elsewhere) to know that you'd never paint yourself into any corner. You're far too independent for that.
pd
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| | | 53 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 23:08
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MITH 36 Guys who look like Newt
What's wrong with Newt's appearance and demeanour? Even the Liberal media columnists like Maureen Dowd in the post-Contract-with-America period pronounced him "Cute".
He's better-looking and smarter than Bill Clinton.
Don't get your post at all
Toral
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| | | 54 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 23:23
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PD 50 As comes to Bill Clinton, however, I believe that many Republicans simply have no idea of how to handle a moderate.
Well, if one comes around, we'll have to decide. Bill Clinton was not a "moderate", but an extremely shrewd liberal who knew from experience just how far he could push his liberalism and still be re-elected. If he could dictat his wants, he would be a Sandanista; but, especially after his defeat in 1980, he learned/vowed never to go past what the voters would accept again.
Lieberman and Gephardt are honest, extreme liberals -- but even they aren't enough for the Democratic primary voters, who apparently won't be satisfied until we surrender to Islamic terrorists, and eliminate from all federal jobs, if not incarerate, any person who dares raise a doubt about the taking of unborn human life.
Toral
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| | | 55 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 23:28
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Ha ha. Good stuff, Toral. Another in a series: "Why Aren't More Democrats As Liberal As I Picture Them As Being? At Least Then I Could Respect Them."
Your post, of course, proves my point.
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| | | 56 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 23:47
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I understand Clinton completely. He is a charismatic con-man. Most politician are, but not to the extent of Clinton, in both charisma and phoniness. That is why he is so polarizing. While you accuse republicans of demonizing him, I see just as many Democrats trying to canonize him.
Personally, I got a kick out of his swarminess. With a conservative congress I had no fear he would get his wife's liberal agenda passed, so he wasn't threatening to me.
Yes, I said liberal agenda not moderate. You can't try to nationalize all healthcare and still be considered a moderate, even if you are for the NAFTA. Castro believes in the death penalty and very minimum wages and I would hasten to call him a moderate.
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| | | 57 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 23:55
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Actually, I have an extreme fondness for Joe Lieberman. As longtime readers of this forum will know, I am a big Robert Bork fan. Bork was defeated in 1987; Lieberman was first elected in 1988, then the AG of whatever small state he comes from; Lieberman made a point of saying that had he been in the Senate in 1987, he would have voted for Bork, because he was supremely qualified and a good man.
So even though Joe has pretty well hewed to the extreme Liberal line since then, because of pressures from within his party, I find it hard to get really mad at him. He has stood for the right thing, when it took courage to do so; and again when he criticized Clinton in the Senate (only he and the late Pat Moynihan would do so.) He hasn't always shown such candour and courage, but at least he has the capacity for it, which is more than one can say of his competitors.
Toral
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| | | 58 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Mon, Nov 03, 2003, 23:58
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I like Lieberman myself--he's always seemed to be a man of his convictions.
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| | | 59 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 00:30
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Toral, my thoughts exactly. I posted my support for Lieberman and I believe it was Mattingly that laughed. It is a shame that charisma plays such a large in elections. The poor guy has none.
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| | | 60 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 01:17
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Greg W. I agree. By qualifications, he should be the Democratic nominee. I posted this before, butr his problem is not that he is Jewish -- I think anti-Semitism is a remote factor if one at all. Joe's problem is that he is flat-out ugly. In a television age, that won't work. We are unfortunate to live in this LIBERAL television age; if the same standards were appied in the past, Abe Lincoln could never have been President. People like Tree and Seattle Zen openly espouse the view that the only point of life is to get as much sex as possible -- with its correlative that beauty is everything.
And the Ted Kennedy Democrats have aded an element of personal ugliness to politics that wasn't there before. When Abe Lincoln went to give his inaugural address, he was obviously uncomfortable about wearing his stovepipe hat during his speech -- his longtime adversary and defeated presidential candidate, the Dem senator from Illinois, Stephen Douglas, went to Lincoln and said "Sir, let me take this. I would be proud to have your hat rest in my lap."
Unfortunately, as shown by the Kennedy/Hillary judicial filibusters, the Dems have long since lost their patriotic traditions. Ann Coulter is if anything too kind to them.
Toral
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| | | 61 | Greg W
ID: 81037310 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 03:51
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Toral, It is not just visually, but audibly. He sounds like a whiney Elmer Fudd.
I don't see how the Democrats are getting by denying qualified minority judical appointees. We are not talking about a bunch of Joycelyn Elders' here, but intelligent, well spoken and knowledgeable people.
You are right. This is the ugliest I have every seen politics in my lifetime and I am not talking about Donna Pelosi's Doe-eyed blank stare. Here is one Democrat's thought about the direction of his party. Zell Miller
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| | | 62 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 04:21
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Greg W I think Lieberman sound like 'a whiney Elmer Fudd' becauz many years in the Democratic caucus have caused him to veil his true opinions. He has to go along with the Kennedy-Clinton left-wing senatoial caucus to filibuster qualified judicial nominees -- there is no way he would support that if he were making the decisons.
A Lieberman Presidency would serve the great Democratic Party interest in equality by helping the most marginalized, whether they are represented by big interest groups or not. That speaking direct to power would be against the interests of Big Labour, and the Kennedy Empire, and so will never hppen.
Toral
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| | | 63 | Pancho Villa Donor
ID: 533817 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 09:13
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The Kennedy Empire? That may have been true when there was a Kennedy as president, Attorney General and Mass. senator, but that was 40 years ago. If there is a family empire now, you may want to look at the current president, his father(a former president) and his brother, the governor of Florida.
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| | | 64 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 09:31
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I could have sworn that accent of Arnold's was Boston, no?
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| | | 65 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 09:40
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Ann Coulter is if anything too kind to them.
The respect I had for you, Toral, has been ripped away in one statement. Hope you were drinking again when you wrote that to have least had the satisfaction of a buzz.
pd
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| | | 66 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 09:57
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Oh PD
Read the Zell Miller quote in Greg W's link and recognize the truth already. The nine midgets aren't appealing to the sane or the center and Toral is 100% correct.
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| | | 67 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 10:02
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Toral believes Lieberman isn't leading the pack because the Democrats are shallow and won't want an ugly President.
You agree with this? A guy who is still wondering how Dems can still support a guy like Jimmy "Pretty Boy" Carter of Ted "No Liver" Kennedy?
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| | | 68 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 55343019 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 10:21
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Toral was drunk again, just look at the hour of his posts. He isn't very witty when he is plastered, but he does betray a latent longing for Joe Lieberman, a terrible, terrible politican.
I was trying to come up with a country where someone as conservative as Lieberman is considered "liberal" and the only two I could think of were Saudi Arabia and China. Afghanistan would have made the list two years ago, but ask ten women on the streets of Kandahar about Sen. Joe and they'll replay, "That conservative a$$hole?".
Your posts in this thread, Toral, show that you understand politics as well as you speak Urdu.
I've got to get back to my orgy.
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| | | 69 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 10:59
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There is just no way that Hillary will run for President in 2004. One quote (Feb. 2003):
Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations.
Bluntly, if she runs this year, she will have to explain why she lied to the American people, why she distorted CIA intelligence, and why she supported such an immoral war. Better to wait until 2008 when people have forgotten about her deceit. (talking like a Dem. primary voter).
Support for this perspective: She got a pink slip earlier this year. "We don't think it's fair to the Iraqi people that she wants us to go to war," Miss Evans said.
No candidate who has been this unfair to the Iraqi people can receive the party's noble nomination in 2004, mark my words.
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| | | 70 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 1629107 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 11:10
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Madman, with all due respect, you probably should try a little harder with your satire.
Bluntly, if she runs this year, she will have to explain why she lied to the American people, why she distorted CIA intelligence, and why she supported such an immoral war.
Given that most of the leaders among the Dem candidates supported invading Iraq under for the reasons laid out by The President (the same reasons Hillary cites in your quote), I fail to see your point.
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| | | 71 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 11:30
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MITH -- And look who are the favorite national candidates. Each of them have had trouble justifying their actions. Furthermore, Hillary (and Bill) were stronger voices regarding the credibility of our intelligence data. As a previous co-President, she should have known better. This would seem to indicate that she either was cool with the idea of Bush using the CIA for political purposes (and tried to help him), or Bush wasn't particularly deceitful. That will take some explaining in the general election. But before then, she'll have to get past the flip-flop problem that is plaguing most Dem. candidates (as you have noticed).
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| | | 72 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 11:37
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...or she had no idea that Bush et al. were short-circuiting the vetting of security information.
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| | | 73 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 531015410 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 11:40
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Hillary (and Bill) were stronger voices regarding the credibility of our intelligence data.
I don't remember either of them speaking on the credibility of our intelligence.
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| | | 74 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 531015410 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 11:43
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Not that it matters, of course. I have no idea why the validity of CIA intelligence even comes into question. Bush distorted official intelligence in his case against Iraq.
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| | | 75 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 11:48
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Oh, I see. So when Hillary who has had access to confidential CIA data and reports comes forward and says in no uncertain terms that Saddam is continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations, she was telling us the unvarnished and blatant truth regarding what our CIA was telling us.
But when Bush does the exact same thing, he's a distortion artist. I understand now. I should have seen that from the beginning.
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| | | 76 | Mattinglyinthehall Sustainer
ID: 531015410 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 11:55
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When are you saying that HRC had access to confidential CIA data? Not as NY Senator.
So when Hillary who has had access to confidential CIA data and reports comes forward and says in no uncertain terms that Saddam is continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations, she was telling us the unvarnished and blatant truth regarding what our CIA was telling us.
No. My assumption is that when Hillary tells us that Saddam is continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations, she is showing faith in our President's assessment of CURRENT data that he has access to.
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| | | 77 | Pancho Villa Donor
ID: 533817 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 12:30
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A total non-issue if it ever comes to Hillary running for prez. Dems will be more inclined to remember the good economic times( whether he was responsible or not) under Clinton as well as a foreign policy that worked with the UN and NATO to forge strong alliances that Bush has discarded as irrelevant.
As far as the moral issues, it's a wash. Rush is a dope addict, Bennett's a gambling addict, Newt's an adulterer, and Bush's cronyism equals or exceeds anything the Clintons can be accused of.
You hear lots of talk from the right about Bush haters, but it pales in comparison to the Clinton haters which even extends to his wife. Entire careers have been built on hating Clinton but do Limbaugh, Coulter and Baldwin show any gratitude at all?
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| | | 78 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 13:17
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I have a feeling many Hillary haters just hate powerful women in general. They prefer their women, if they hear from them at all, as ineffectual splutterers of conservative dogma that doesn't challenge the male ego's perception of their supremacy. Otherwise, I am truly at a loss to explain the rage and foaming at the mouth that the mere mention of Senator Clinton's name causes in some circles. Disagreeing with someone's politics is one thing, the visceral guttural hatred is quite another.
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| | | 79 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 13:19
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I also think this segment of our society will be a real road block to a woman ever becoming president, because it is not just men that feel this way, strangely enough.
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| | | 80 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 13:55
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Ann Coulter is if anything too kind to them.
The respect I had for you, Toral, has been ripped away in one statement. Hope you were drinking again when you wrote that to have least had the satisfaction of a buzz.
Well it can't have been much respect or real respect in the first place if it can be "ripped away" by my praising Annie.
If you ever redevelop respect again, just let me now and I'll say more good things about Annie. Anybody who gets liberals in that much of a tither is good in my books.
Toral
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| | | 81 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 13:59
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SZ Your posts in this thread, Toral, show that you understand politics as well as you speak Urdu.
Put your money where your mouth is, big shot, and offer me some odds on political propositions. I trust you've already got saved the money you will owe mbj on your presidential bet.
Toral
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| | | 82 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:07
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PD Toral believes Lieberman isn't leading the pack because the Democrats are shallow and won't want an ugly President.
Ah, no. Lieberman isn't leading the pack because he is the most moderate of the field and Democratic primary voters (like Republicans) want raw meat fed to them. They want someone they can cheer and scream for, someone who will offer raw hate at the other side. (The same reason why the GOP will have problems in 2008. It will be very difficult to find someone who can both energize the base and win a general election. Dubya was a rare find in that regard, and aside from Jeb, it's hard to think of a Republican who could fill that role today.)
I didn't really blame the Dem voters for 'not wanting an ugly President.' It's very hard for someone who is that untelegenic to win an election in the television age. Honest Abe would still be stuck in the backwoods of Illinois if he lived today. That's just a fact of modern life which political partisans have to accept if they want their party to win.
Toral
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| | | 83 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:09
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Any more insults to rebut? I think that takes care of it. Yesterday was a d ifficult day, as I had to submit papers to Revenue Canada who are trying to reassess my 1998 tax return. I'm hoping for a much quieter day today, but if the Left has any more insults, bring 'em on.
Toral
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| | | 84 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:10
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I have a feeling many Hillary haters just hate powerful women in general. - Bili
I might prefer Peggy Noonan to Ronald Reagan himself. You are just wallowing in delusion on that one Bili. How bout Phylis Schlafly for Pres? I like that idea better than Bush!
I'll even take Hillary's detractor Laura Ingraham in a fraction of a heartbeat over her bete noire for that role.
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| | | 85 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:12
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And in case you forgot, Ann Coulter rules all she surveys. 8]
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| | | 86 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:13
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Fear not, Toral. The sheen of studious conservatism you've worked hard to cultivate has been revealed as simple partisan sweat. Anyone who believes Coulter adds to the political discourse can be added to the same mulchpile that Sharpton & Kucinich fans are already in.
pd
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| | | 87 | Baldwin
ID: 6920139 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:15
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As long as they walk two paces behind me. [just thot I'd assist you back into your dream state Bili]
8]
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| | | 88 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:49
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Now, now PD. Even such a nice balanced person as yourself can say (and has occasionally said) rather mean things about the other side. I didn't even do that.
Ann Coulter articulates a genuine loathing of the other side which many conservatives feel and have to repress often out of kindness, fairness, fear or other factors. You might say that she appeals to the "dark side" of people; unfortunately for that view, I think she appeals to the good and honest side of conservatives. In the 70s, the American Spectator used to sell a button saying "Liberalism Kills". Ann doesn't just wear the button; she lives it. She appeals to people who can't understand a world in which Bill Clinton, whose personal character was widely known, could be elected to any office higher than Ward 3 Alderman in Little Rock. A man who still has defenders even though George Stephanopoulos, his close aide, wrote publicly in his book that after working with the man closely, he came to doubt his fitness to be President.
Studious conservatism and partisanship can go hand in hand. I have said before that these boards are/were at their best in the year of a presidential election, when elemental partisanship is at its highest.
Toral
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| | | 89 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 14:51
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I will repeat for Baldwin: "They prefer their women, if they hear from them at all, as ineffectual splutterers of conservative dogma that doesn't challenge the male ego's perception of their supremacy."
Peggy Noonan
It is important who he is. George W. Bush is an American of the big and real America. He believes in it all--in the vision of the founders, in the meaning of freedom, in the founding and enduring ideas of our country. He believes in America's historic insistence on humanity and not inhumanity in war, and he appears to have internalized the old saying that "one man with courage is a majority."
I used to wonder if George W. Bush's biography didn't suggest a kind of reverse Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln was born in low circumstances and rose with superior gifts. Mr. Bush was born in superior circumstances and rose with average gifts. And yet when you look at Mr. Bush now I think you have to admit--I think even clever people who talk loudly in restaurants have to admit--that he has shown himself not to be a man of average gifts. Backbone is not an average gift. Guts are not an average gift. The willingness to take pain and give pain to make progress in human life is not an average gift.
All in all these are amazing qualities in a political figure, and in a president. There's a headline for you: America appears to have a president worthy of its people.
Phyllis Schlafly
Ginsburg has long been on record as wanting cases to be decided on her version of what she calls "the equality principle" (rather than on the Constitution). Her "equality" notions include the right to abortion at taxpayers' expense (which the Supreme Court rejected in 1980), and a mindless gender neutrality that would include eliminating the concept of "breadwinning husband" and "dependent, homemaking wife."
The influence of Ruth Bader Ginsburg is clearly seen in another 2003 decision that shocked observers, Nevada Dept. of Human Resources v. Hibbs. The court's tirade against "stereotypes" (a word used 19 times) which supposedly "forced women to continue to assume the role of primary family caregiver" was based on feminist fantasies about a gender-neutral society, not on the U.S. Constitution.
I have never listened to Laura but her website looks like more drooling over strong republican men. Breathlessness over Arnold's hardbody, "What would Reagan do?"
All three of these women have one thing in common, they would never dream of dropping their pom-poms, getting into the game and showing they can play politics and be as powerful as a man. If they did they would instantly lose their support.
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| | | 90 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:07
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Bili repeats the tired old liberal smear that people who dislike Hillary do so because they don't like strong, powerful, assertive women. How do you then explain Margaret Thatcher, and conservatives' genuine love for her? Among English conservatives she is by far the most popular leader since...since...well, in the Party's entire history.
So then, the Left retreats to the position that conservatives only accept ineffectual splutterers of conservative dogma that doesn't challenge the male ego's perception of their supremacy. Don't think Thatcher fits in there. She singlehandedly terrorized and manhandled -- sorry, personhandled -- the entire English bureaucracy and Conservative party establishment.
Nor was Phyllis Schafly an "ineffectual splutterer". She is generally credited with defeating the Equal Rights Amendment singlehandedly.
All three of these women have one thing in common, they would never dream of dropping their pom-poms, getting into the game and showing they can play politics and be as powerful as a man. If they did they would instantly lose their support.
Bullsh*t. Margaret Thatcher proves that. I guess bili isn't a "real man" because he hasn't dropped his Bills gear and run for elected office.
Toral
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| | | 91 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:14
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So Europe's not the puritanical, conservative hotbed of "traditional values" that values a "bread-winning husband" that the US is. This surprises you, Toral?
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| | | 92 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:15
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Is it just happenstance that we haven't seen a powerful conservative woman emerge in the United States? Just a matter of time? They are more than half the population, you know.
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| | | 93 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:18
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So what is your explanation for the hatred and vicious attacks that Senator Clinton has been subjected to, far beyond the mere political disdain shown her more liberal male counterparts?
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| | | 94 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:24
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Bili, if conservatives only like week, ineffectual women, how do you explain the career of Jeane Kirkpatrick, who left the Democratic Party because it was too soft during the Cold War? You may not remember her, but it was she who gave the keynote speech (at a time when that honour still meant something) at the GOP convention in 1980 denouncing "San Francisco Democrats" whose first principle in foreign policy was "Blame America first"? (her words, not mine).
She was a Reagan Cabinet member and U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., where she delivered hard truths in the Pat Moynihan style.
I guess you won't be satisfied until a woman President is elected. It will come wiothin our lifetimes, and she will be a Republican.
Toral
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| | | 95 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:27
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A token cabinet member 20 years ago?
I thought sure you were going to bring up Condi or Whitman.
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| | | 96 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:41
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Bili, she was no token. Her article in "National Review" distinguishing between authoritarianism and totalitariansim was essentially the basic model for Reagan foreign policy.
I could have mentioned Condi, but we (the masses) won't know how much influence she actually has/had till the history books are written. I wouldn't mention Christie (Whitman) because she had no real influence; she is a Republican because her family was; if she had come from a Democratic family, she would be a Democrat. She attained prominence because she and her family is immensely wealthy and she could bankroll her own campaigns. She is smart enuf, nice looking, credible enuf etc. but except for her wealth no different than 10K people in her state. She was smart enuf to scam her state by cutting taxes, paying for it by 'borrowing' money from state pension funds, and then getting out as Governor before the crap hit the fan.
Toral
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| | | 97 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 15:49
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But again, this is just the model that I am hypothesizing a conservative woman can be accepted as. Kirkpatrick (my dad loved her, I seem to remember) influenced Reagan, she didn't wield the power directly.
"Behind every great man..."
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| | | 98 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 16:06
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Re: Whitman. Having spent a bit of time in NJ, I'd only add that much of her power came from (1) a surprisingly strong showing when running for the Senate against Bill Bradley, a showing borne from anger over Democratic state tax hikes and (2) the thought that she was going places.
Her home base of Hunterdon County is an extremely well-off county, socially liberal with strangely few Democrats.
Good overview, Toral.
pd
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| | | 99 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 16:29
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Hillary Clinton was out jogging one morning along the parkway when she tripped, fell over the bridge railing and landed in the creek below. Before the Secret Service guys could get to her, 3 kids who were fishing pulled her out of the water. She was so grateful she offered the kids whatever they wanted.
The first kid says, "I want to go to Disneyland."
Hillary says, "No problem, I'll take you there on my special senator's airplane " The second kid says, "I want a new pair of Nike Air Jordan's." Hillary says, "I'll get them for you and even have Michael sign them!!" The third kid says, "I want a motorized wheelchair with a built in TV and stereo headset!"
Hillary is a little perplexed by this and says, "But you don't look like you're handicapped." The kid says, "I will be after my dad finds out I saved your ass from drowning."
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| | | 100 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 16:35
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So what is your explanation for the hatred and vicious attacks that Senator Clinton has been subjected to, far beyond the mere political disdain shown her more liberal male counterparts?
See what I mean? Even the owners of this fine media establishment wish her dead. ;)
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| | | 101 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 16:35
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Heh heh.
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| | | 102 | j o s h
ID: 19100411 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 16:46
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guru opened the door
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| | | 103 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:13
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A few more posts and I may, based on the evidence, be forced to expand my hypothesis to "All republicans are misogynists"!
Baldwin is the only one has made any attempt to distinguish the characteristics that he dislikes about the woman, and aside from unproved slander, "power-hungry" is the only accusation that sticks.
Continue posting supporting evidence, guys.
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| | | 104 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:15
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Hillary Clinton made a good impression when she visited Canada. She skated up the Rideau to get to Parliament Hill, which is de rigeuer in Ottawa. During the winters, Flora MacDonald, a Caninet member, used to skate up the Rideau to work, but I digress.
Hillary was accompanied in Canada by numerous U. S. Secret Service agents, who wanted the Canadian government to clear the canal of skaters before she skated on it. Hillary told them to go to Hell, and that she would skate among the people, and that her protectors better be on to lace up some skates if they wanted to keep up with her. The Secret Service had to adhere to Hillary's wishes, in the end.
She didn't disrupt traffic, showed that she could skate well, wasn't assassinated by any crazed anti-American skater agents,spoke to some people she met while skating (an unscheduled event) and made a very good impression for herself.
She is a very smart woman. Republicans would be unwise to underestimate her.
Toral
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| | | 105 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:18
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Toral brings Republicans back from the brink.
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| | | 106 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:25
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BTW, what is the difference between authoritarianism and totalitarianism?
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| | | 107 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:26
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The first is control by the writers of books. The second is control by breakfast cereal manufacturers.
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| | | 108 | biliruben Leader
ID: 49132614 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:26
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LOL!
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| | | 109 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:32
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Bili, look up Jeane Kirkpatrick's articles. She worte an artilce in National Review, which Mr Reagan devoured, as a good conservative. He said to his friends, "I want to meet this woman." He didn't mean it in a Zen-Clinton way.
The next thing you know, she was one of the most important, if not the most important, foreign policy figures under President Reagan.
Go figure. When Clinton said to his buddies, "I want to meet this woman", I think it had a whole different connotation.
Toral
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| | | 110 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 17:59
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And that must explain Janet Reno and Madeline Albright???
Scary stuff, Toral.
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| | | 111 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 18:24
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Janet Reno, as you should well know mbj, was an affirmative-action appointment. Billary (mostly Hillary) made a fetish of diversity in appointments when he was first elected, to the extent that some appointments had not been made after a year he was in ofice.
Janet Reno, IMO, is a perfect example of the benefits and costs of affirmative action. She had the intelligence, abaility, and integrity to be a good AG (as she eventually was, imo.)
But she didn't have the exeperience. And that cost the country. An AG with experience would have decided differently at Waco, and neither the cultists nor the law enforcement officers would have died. Ms. Reno defends her Waco decisions to the end, but earlier she confessed that she might have got overpowered by the strong FBI arguments. A more experiened AG wouldn't have got overpowered.
The caee for storming the building, as one FBI agent said, was "We're tired. We're tired of sitting around doing nothing." A more experienced AG would have said, "Well, be tired. Or resign, or go on disability leave."
I don't think that the weird decisions the U.S. Govt made would have been allowed if they had a strong experienced AG. In the end, I think Janet Reno was a good AG. But her affirmative-action learning curve cost many lives.
Toral
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| | | 112 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 18:34
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Well, sh1t, I thought they just caught Bill's eye, and he wanted to "meet them."
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| | | 113 | Pancho Villa Donor
ID: 533817 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 19:23
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While no fan of Reno, and her stewardship of the Waco situation, it is mere speculation that Ashcroft would have done any better. Ashcroft, given his conservative religious leanings, may have had even less patience with a man who claimed god-like status.
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| | | 114 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 19:31
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I agree, PV. It's not Reno vs. Ashcroft. It's Reno vs. the unknown person that Presdient Clinton would have appointed aside from affirmative action.
By and large, appointing less qualified people because of affirmtaiv action hurts no one. Yopu can always shunt them off into unimportant jobs -- toss them in personnel, and let then spend the whole year flying off to diversity seminars, or whatever.
In this case, howver, I believe AA costed actual human lives. Big difference.
Toral
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| | | 115 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 19:56
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And do you feel that Bush hired Powell, Condi, and Whitman because of Affirmative Action? [I don't, frankly, but I find it interesting that the unspoken point is that the Republican hires for qualifying reasons while the Democratic President hires for non-qualifying reasons].
pd
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| | | 116 | Myboyjack Leader
ID: 14826271 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 20:17
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Maybe that's becaue the one party supports AA, while the other opposes it.
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| | | 117 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 20:43
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PD, the Clinton administration openly set aa?diversity/quota requirtements in its hiring. They were very rigourous, and reportedly insisted on by Hillary. That is not a secret, but something widely reported at the time. I'm amazed you don't know this; it was widely reported at the time. Either look at old Newsweeks; or if you want be to prove it further, you will have to cross my hand with silver.
So some of the Dem appointees got there by merit; others not. That's the nasty thing about AA; you can never tell whether the appointments ae made by merit, or not. Blacks occupy an extremely low percentage of such jobs as brain surgeon or heart surgeon (and airplane pilot). I guess that is because of "our discriminatory society". I doubt that any parent here would voluntarily put his child's life in the hands of an "Affirmative Action" doctor however.
MBJ, you've been trolling. How are you? Been doin' your job, putting innocent people away for life...speak to us.
Toral
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| | | 118 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 20:47
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I'd love to find somewhere reputable in which there were "diversity/quota requirements" for the Clintons. My guess is that you'll find the former,, but not the latter. Conservatives, of course, are unable to tell the difference.
pd
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| | | 119 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 21:10
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Umm. when there are hard numbers set, there is a difference.
Do you realy want to pursue this issue, PD? The Clintons bragged about it initially and it was widely reported. You do get Time and newsweek, n'estce-pas?
You are denying (see even balanced Democrats can be partisan) somethng that was wdiely, openly reported at the time.
It's come to the state where I have to ask you to put your money where your mouth is. Let's put up, say, your one months' mortgage payment on your nice new house (any blacks in your neighbourhood, BTW? I thought not.) Actually I will not invite the bet, becase it is basically free money.
We'll have to settle on the question.,,the research shouldn't be hard. Billary was open abou it and Hewsweek and Time reported it straight up.
Toral
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| | | 120 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 55343019 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 21:22
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Bill told the country that his cabinet would "reflect America", meaning that he would have more people of color. There were no "requirements".
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| | | 121 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 21:30
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Diversity, yes. Quotas? No. And since you can't tell the difference I'm confident I would never have to pay out a thing.
"Any blacks" you say? Really. Do you have any idea of how stupid you sound? You have been listening to Ann Coulter--out goes the facts in return for a quick slap.
pd
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| | | 122 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 21:31
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Zen...tbe scrutiny tht Bill and Hillary gave to presidenal appointmets as openly stated and widely reported. I can't see how anyine could miss it unless highly zonked at the time....which is quite permissable as a response to Bill Clinton being elected President of the U.S.
I am with you, brother. Decent poeple can't believe that it actually happened, and in many cases have "represed" memories of what actually happened.
Toral
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| | | 123 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 21:41
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Toral, I like you when you're drunk. You would be one rocking dude to party with :)
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| | | 124 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Nov 04, 2003, 22:20
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Well, thanx, Mr Prez. I'm sure you have noted mo non-standard approach to the use of commas and quotation marks as wee.
Stanard rendering:
Jane was mad. "The Liberals took all my money and raped me," she said. Reporting on the story, "They are horrible beasts, animals".
I take the old, non-standard English usage, Polk. I believe in only putting within quotation marks those words that were said, and in not putting commas or periods wihin quotes when they were not intennded by the speaker.
In American usage this is just wrong, and would be corrected by any editor, however illiterate. My approach has the approval of Fowler, however; who said that the illogical approach was adoted for purely aesthethic reasons -- i.e., the printers liked it better.
There are still some big publishing houses in England that still accept the old style -- i.e. my style.
So unless and until Guru issues an authoritaive style guide, I fell comfortable using my style here.
There, Mr Prez [Ebglish usage does not put a period after abbreviations that end with the last letter of the word being shortened.}
Are you sure you want to party with me? Rather like Dietrich or whatever his name was on SNL.
Now we have discussed, let's party!
Toral
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| | | 125 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 09:56
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MITH 76 -- sorry for the late response. Reminder quotes:
When are you saying that HRC had access to confidential CIA data? Not as NY Senator. ... My assumption is that when Hillary tells us that Saddam is continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability ... she is showing faith in our President's assessment of CURRENT data that he has access to.
Washington Post, June, 2003
... [Hillary] said she confirmed Bush administration assessments with private briefings from experts from her husband's administration.
"The intelligence from Bush I to Clinton to Bush II was consistent. That intelligence … was very strong on the continuing presence of biological and chemical programs. … It was also very consistent on the continuing effort to develop nuclear capacity," she said.
And, notice that this topic coincidentally came up in an article about her 2004 presidential lack of ambition.
Then, go back to the fall of 2002:
Hillary's speech on the war
Now I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. ...
In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.
Now this much is undisputed.
Do you really think she would call it UNDISPUTED if her sole source was Bush? Do you really think a responsible Senator would have just skipped out on CIA intelligence briefings?
No, you give her too little credit. She, like virtually everyone else, believed the intelligence we were getting, perhaps because Saddam had weapons, perhaps because Saddam wanted us to believe he had weapons, or perhaps just because our intelligence was so crappy. But the point is that she believed the intelligence for the right reasons. But she opposed Bush's use of force on principle.
Your attempts to go back and call her a dupe for Bush are an insult to her intelligence, her experience, and her judgment.
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| | | 126 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 10:04
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Madman, I think you have that exactly right in your #125. Good post.
I think you're wrong to say that she now has to explain a flip-flop of some sort (unless, of course, you also are asking on Bush to explain how their build-up of Saddam's weapons capability has proved to be more hype than not, even if based upon the "best available data").
pd
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| | | 127 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 10:06
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Capitol Blue ... sorry to rub it in, but this question was specifically asked of her:
Clinton also distanced herself over the war in Iraq from Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass. In a floor speech this week, Kennedy accused Bush of misleading the American public in the months running up to the conflict over Saddam Hussein's involvement in developing nuclear weapons.
Clinton, who serves on the Senate Armed Services Committee and voted in favor of a resolution supporting the war, said all pre-war intelligence reports she saw indicated there was strong evidence Saddam was stockpiling chemical and biological weapons, and trying to obtain nuclear weapons.
She said former Clinton administration aides she consulted before casting her vote agreed with the Bush administration's case against Iraq.
"I did all the due diligence. They all agreed with the consensus of the intelligence," she said. She said the failure of American forces to find evidence of Saddam's nuclear or biological weapons programs prompts her to question where the CIA was getting its information.
I disagree with her ideologically. But unlike her husband (with whom I share more ideologically), I think she is a woman with some character and fundamental principles. These sorts of statements just confirm that.
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| | | 128 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 10:12
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PD 126 -- I think you're wrong to say that she now has to explain a flip-flop of some sort
Let me clarify. From my personal point of view, she's clean (even though I disagree). But the media hounds will be pegging her with it, and she'll have to face up to it. As evidence, just look at where these questions came up in two of the last three links I gave you -- they were talking about her running.
The media is doing us a terrible disservice right now with respect to its search for hypocrisy and news. It's either facilitating or exacerbating the "gotcha" politics on the Iraq intelligence issue, and it's that sort of nonsense that she'll have to face. And I don't see how she can escape unscathed. I don't know how any honest self-respecting politician can escape unscathed, unless they come from outside Washington and opposed everything, like Dean.
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| | | 129 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 10:18
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You might be right on the media, Madman (on this point), but what helps her is that the media has a short-term memory only. They are lika a bunch of guys from that movie Memento, all reporting the news.
BTW, I find all this bitching on the Right about Hilary (and them salivating over her running again--and she will run again, even if just for her own seat), to be like Boston Red Sox fans. Always talking about the Yankees and how much they hate them and how much the Yankees are killing baseball. But every time up, the Yanks wipe the floor with them.
The fact that the Clintons continue to win races despite the Right really, really, really not liking them just makes it that much more difficult. Now they hate them for winning.
pd
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| | | 130 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Nov 05, 2003, 10:25
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PD 129 -- definitely true. The Right's infatuation with the Clinton's is a problem.
As a political strategy, you want the oppositions base to be motivated by something that the average person doesn't care about. The key is to realize that the opposition's base will always be pissed about something; a good politician will try to make sure that what they are pissed off about won't cost you political points.
The Clintons were/are masters of that. They get the right so caught up in who they are as people, but most don't vote on those issues.
Similarly, I thought and think that Bush has done a masterful job at making the liberal Democrat base really upset about Bush's Texas accent. Jokes that make Bush look dumb are about as effective as jokes about Clinton's private life.
To the extent that the base can get vociferous on issues that matter more -- Iraq is a slim possibility, Social Security or the war on terror would be better -- the Democrats have a chance.
But the more its personal, the less effective the opposition.
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| | | 131 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 15:14
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re 84: I've been listening to Laura for the last couple of weeks (No, they haven't yet passed a law that she can't be broadcast in Seattle). I have no idea what you see in her. All she does is mock, sneer and screech. Not an original thought to be found from Ms. Ingraham. She decided to play Kerry clips last night and just go "blah, blah, blah, blah" over him speaking, as if that was a useful and sound retort. And then some dude comes on now and again to back her up, as if she can't maintain credibility unless a big, strong man says her point is credible (not that she makes any substantive points).
You'd vote for her for president, Baldwin?
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| | | 132 | Baldwin
ID: 560191911 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 15:49
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Over Hillary? Well as you know I don't vote but there's no contest. I'd sleep like a baby with Ingraham in there.
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| | | 133 | yankeeh8tr
ID: 23146248 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 16:01
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Are you kidding, baldwin? You don't vote?
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| | | 134 | Baldwin
ID: 560191911 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 16:03
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You heard right. Christians and God's Kingdom are no part of this world which is why his followers did not fight to prevent his death and why Jesus turned down the offer of rulership of all the kingdoms of the world.
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| | | 135 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 16:14
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That's Baldwin. Strong talk and no action. I suppose that's why he so worships Ann and Laura and why he despises Hillary.
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| | | 136 | Baldwin
ID: 560191911 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 16:25
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I don't have to fix the Titanic. God will sink it anyway.
I really should stop myself but it's hard not to discuss what you know a great deal about.
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| | | 137 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 17:33
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Conservative commentators who conflate "blah blah blah" with reasoned debate? :)
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| | | 138 | Akbar Kufr
ID: 34521 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 20:25
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Baldwin is correct! Voting is an invention of Satan and his minions. I await the day that Allah appoints a caliph to oversee this land.
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| | | 139 | Baldwin
ID: 560191911 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 20:34
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LOL!
Now don't forget all you liberals, diversity makes us strong and no culture is better than any other. Akbar's value judgements are every bit as valid as your own.
*cough*
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| | | 140 | yankeeh8tr
ID: 23146248 Tue, Feb 24, 2004, 20:44
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*yoink*
Of all the things I have heard/read here I think that post 132 takes the cake. Followed closely by 134.
(Shocked, shocked to find out there's gambling going on here...)
IMO, baldwin if you don't care enough to participate in the political process, you should probably keep your mouth closed. And what kind of "christianity" are you practicing that would preclude you from a civic duty/privilege? I'd call you out on it, but you've already proven your reluctance to share any details with us. However, I seriously doubt most biblical scholars would translate Jesus' rejection of Satans attempt to seduce him with all the kingdoms of the world as an admonition to stay away from the polls.
I've got to say I'm disappointed you don't at least make the effort - at least nerve gives us a passable reason to skip super Tuesday with his "slot A tab B" theories of the candidates.
Small wonder you deify rabble rousers like Ann and Laura who talk a lot but do little.
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| | | 141 | Baldwin
ID: 560191911 Wed, Feb 25, 2004, 01:35
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*sigh*
My own true best freng...
Listen buddy, what do we learn from the fact that Satan could offer Jesus rulership of all the kingdoms of the world? Jesus did not retort, 'they are not yours to give'' because they were. Satan is the spirit of the air of this world. Until that which is God's kingdom arrives you have that which is not God's kingdom running the show.
To vote would be to share bloodguilt with those governments which are directed by Satan.
I agree with you tho YHTR, I really shouldn't post here. My wife begs me every day not to. Again it is just hard not to talk about what you know so very much about.
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| | | 142 | Baldwin
ID: 560191911 Wed, Feb 25, 2004, 03:13
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...and they have their minds upon things on the earth. 20 As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ...Phil 3:19b, 20
Ambassadors of Christ [2 Corinthians 5:20]...do ambassadors vote? In the elections of the foreign country to which they are assigned?
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:14)
Christians are alien residents and strangers in a strange land [Heb 11:13] and as most people know aliens aren't supposed to vote. *cough*
Jas. 4:4: “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”
You have never noticed it but I have never even claimed to be a Republican for this reason tho I may unfortunately have let the impression linger. For the sake of brevity I can't explain all this in every post of course and it may sound otherwise.
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| | | 143 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 11:30
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Matt Drudge:
Baldwin and especially WND may get their wish, after all.XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX WED JUNE 30, 2004 11:18:25 ET XXXXX
VICE PRESIDENT HILLARY; SPECULATION INTENSIFIES IN WASHINGTON
Official Washington and the entire press corps will be rocked when Hillary Rodham Clinton is picked as Kerry's VP and a massive love fest will begin!
So predicts a top Washington insider, who spoke to the DRUDGE REPORT on condition he not be named.
"All the signs point in her direction," said the insider, one of the most influencial and well-placed in the nation's capital. "It is the solution to every Kerry problem."
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| | | 145 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 11:32
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More"There are three issues that this campaign will be decided on-- national security, health care, and the economy, not necessarily in that order."
"Kerry believes that no one is better on national security than he is, he served in Vietnam after all, so he has that covered and the suggestion that he needs to strengthen the ticket with someone who has national security credentials is dismissed as foolish."
The insider continues: "The Democrats feel like health care is the domestic issue. But how to make it the dominant topic of conversation-- break through war and terrorism? Hillary Clinton. She catapults it out front with her commission. She tried to provide health care before and the Republicans in congress attacked her and her husband and used a bunch of scandals dirty tricks to stop it, we know they are scandals dirty tricks because the former president book says so. So now you have the number two person on the ticket who is a 'health care expert' and what will Republicans do? Attack on health care pointing to her commission saying that it was government medicine. Her response-- it wasn't, and the Republicans are a bunch of dirty tricksters, "Liars and Crooks," as Kerry calls them, and its been too long and Democrats wont let the Republicans do it to them again. By the way, it puts prescription drugs on the back burner, the republicans health care ace. You will have a fully engaged national debate on health care from now until the election."
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| | | 146 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 11:35
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More (Why can't Drudge just post the thing all at once?)"The Democrats economic plan is to say Bush sucks, it's never enough, we must get back to the Clinton Era when 22 million jobs were created. You can't do much better at making that point then-- Kerry/Clinton 2004.
"But what about impeachment and Monica -- wont that overshadow her being picked? It' now been covered in the book. Not only that, but she is a women scorned who has dealt with what so many American women deal with and stuck it out to keep her family together. And Whitewater? It's in the book. Vince Foster? Book. Billing records, White House travel Office? Book, book. All have been covered. All Republican slime tactics.
"Why would Kerry make such a public spectacle about trying to get John Mccain, wont whoever you pick be considered a second choice. Not if it is Hillary!
"There are differences of opinion about how this election will be won but one school says its all about the base. Republicans are bumping up against the ceiling with support from their base and Democrats are sitting on the floor. This would change that.
"Official Washington and national media will fall in love with the idea immediately letting Kerry/Clinton dominate the news through July and up to the Republican convention. She will say she is doing it for the good of the country. I am convinced this is going to happen."
MORE
"But what Hillary about having to wait to run for president? If Bush wins then she is the nominee for 2008 because it will be all Kerry's fault. If she wins she is the first woman VP of the United States, which would help her become the first woman president of the U.S. It would be historic in its own right and change the nature of politics in this country, and mark her place in the history books for ever-- a different history than her husbands."
Developing...
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| | | 147 | yankeeh8tr
ID: 15512817 Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 11:57
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Well, it would keep President Kerry safe from any asassination attempts (in much the same way as Cheney has shielded W), and has the bonus perk of driving baldwin out of his gourd... ;]
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| | | 148 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 13:22
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$5 to Guru she isn't on the ticket. Any takers?
She's in town today; I'll go ask her.
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| | | 149 | Boldwin
ID: 1411237 Thu, Feb 24, 2005, 19:55
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Ok ok she actually waited to run against BushIII instead of BushII. But she's runnin' now...Hillary. Forget her prepared speeches, put aside her moderate statements on Iraq and abortion. This is how you know she's running for president in 2008. Ten days ago a reporter interviewed her in the halls of the Senate (another kind of cloister) and asked if she planned to run for president. She did not say, "I'm too busy serving the people of New York to think about the future." She did not say, "Oh, I already have a heckuva lot on my plate." She said, "I have more than I can say grace over right now."
I have more than I can say grace over right now. What a wonderfully premeditated ad lib for the Age of Red State Dominance. I suggested a few weeks ago that Mrs. Clinton was about to get very, very religious. But her words came across as pious and smarmy, like Tammy Faye with a law degree. Maybe she still thinks in stereotypes; maybe she thinks that's what little Christian ladies talk like while they stay home baking cookies. Whatever, it was almost as good as her saying, "I'm running, is this not obvious to even the slowest of you?" - Peggy Noonan
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| | | 151 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Sat, Jul 09, 2005, 03:06
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Bili said earlier that he just didn't get the degree of opposition Hillary gets. But it comes from both the far left and right and it is because the Clintons represent an unprecedented threat. They are a stop at nothing threat to open free society. Consider the following history of the internet, the Clinton underground coverage, the undermining of law enforcement. They became truly the first president literally above the law and if we aren't careful they will be the first president with an iron grasp on the internet's throat. Hillary recognized early that the Internet posed a threat to her power. Her efforts to regulate Internet speech began as early as 1994. By 1995, her operatives were engaged in an all-out war to silence Clinton critics on the Web.
When the Clintons took office in 1993, Big Media still monopolized the news. Its editors and news directors largely determined what Americans knew about the events of the day. By the time the Clintons left office in 2001, Big Media had lost its hold on the American mind. New Media such as talk radio, cable news and the Internet fanned the flames of a growing dissident movement – disgusted with Washington corruption and charged with a militant spirit.
Through a curious stroke of fate, the technology which made the Web Underground possible emerged in the same year that William Jefferson Clinton took office as president of the United States.
Clinton was inaugurated in January 1993. The following month, the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign released the Mosaic browser. Later renamed the Netscape browser, this was the first genuinely user-friendly browser to reach the mass market, enabling ordinary people to navigate the World Wide Web using easy point-and-click technology.
Before 1993, only computer nerds knew the word "Internet." After 1993, cyberspace was open to the masses.
The earliest online dissidents posted their messages on what is now a fairly obscure corner of the Internet – the so-called Usenet, or Unix User Network – through newsgroups such as the venerable alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater. Other online subversives set up message boards on subscription-only commercial services such as Prodigy – a closed online community much like AOL.
In the early '90s, Prodigy's Whitewater News bulletin board became a hot spot of dissident activity. Like Alice's looking-glass, it offered a portal into another world. The complacent America conjured up each evening on our TV screens by Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather and Peter Jennings gave way on the Prodigy board to a harsher, more daunting terrain, where Americans faced hard choices, as momentous, in their way, as the choices our forefathers confronted in 1776.
Banana Republic, USA
The Whitewater News board covered a range of Clinton scandals far beyond the crooked Ozarks real estate deal from which it took its name. The board exposed the deep-rooted network of corruption in Arkansas which had given rise to the Clintons.
A poor, sparsely-populated state, Clinton's Arkansas had evolved into a kind of Third-World country within the United States. Local government – including police – were notoriously cozy with the "Dixie Mafia" kingpins who ran Arkansas' criminal rackets.
The Clintons blended comfortably with Arkansas' traditional backwoods corruption. But they also helped raise that corruption to new levels. During Bill Clinton's tenure as attorney general and then governor of Arkansas, the state became a veritable Dixie Casablanca, a hotbed of global intrigue, in which shady operators ranging from Columbian drug lords and BCCI money launderers to Chinese intelligence agents took part.
Arkansas had become a kind of banana republic, not unlike Noriega's Panama, in which the local dictator, Bill Clinton, and his circle of friends lived above the law and gained access to rivers of dirty money, in exchange for little more than keeping their mouths shut and staying out of the way.
Under Gov. Clinton, the state of Arkansas had been turned into a massive base for CIA black operations supporting the Contra rebels in Nicaragua. From roughly 1982 to 1986, transport planes flew weapons from the Intermountain Regional Airport in Mena, Ark., down to the Contras in Central America – allegedly often returning with cocaine shipments supplied by Columbia's Medellin drug cartel.
Mainstream Republicans have proved just as reluctant as mainstream Democrats to look deeply into the secrets of Mena airport. However, the Prodigy message board proved a ready conduit for press reports on Mena. Some of the earliest reports posted at Prodigy were drawn from leftwing journals; others had appeared in local newspapers such as the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Many appeared in response to the 1994 book "Compromised," by ex-CIA pilot Terry Reed, who offered a unique, insider's account of the Mena operation.
Regardless of ideology, every writer who took on this explosive topic found an open-minded audience in the Web Underground.
In later years, Clinton defenders would blame a "vast rightwing conspiracy" for concocting the Mena story. White House spokesman Mark Fabiani, a member of Hillary's Shadow Team, told the Washington Post in 1996, "Mena is the darkest backwater of the rightwing conspiracy industry. The allegations are as bizarre as they are false."
But they were not false. And it was the hard Left that broke this story, not the hard Right. The radical Covert Action Information Bulletin brought it to light in the summer of 1987, in a special edition on "The CIA and Drugs." In 1989, activist Mark Swaney led a group of leftwing University of Arkansas students, called the Arkansas Committee, to investigate the Mena affair. Subsequent reports appeared in the early '90s in leftist journals such as the Nation, the Village Voice, In These Times and on the Pacifica Radio Network.
Leftwing writers such as Alexander Cockburn, Roger Morris and Sally Denton had their own reasons for pursuing the Mena story. To them, Mena exposed Bill and Hillary as hypocrites, capitalist sell-outs masquerading as "progressives." Whatever the investigators' motives, however, the facts were available for anyone with an interest. To this day, few have taken the trouble to look at them squarely.
The Clinton coup
On Oct. 18, 1994, a ripple of excitement stirred the Web Underground when the Wall Street Journal published a story titled, "The Mena Cover-up," by Micah Morrison. Incredibly, Morrison recounted the whole sordid tale of the Mena arms-for-drugs operation, for the first time in a major national newspaper.
"My Lord, so the end is really at hand," one poster exclaimed on the Prodigy message board.
The end was not at hand, however. None of the intrepid citizen journalists at Prodigy suspected in 1994 how bulletproof the Clintons had become to any and all allegations of criminal activity raised against them.
One of the first projects the Clintons undertook in the White House was to bring federal law enforcement under their personal control. They accomplished this through a massive purge, in three phases. By the time the Mena story broke in the Wall Street Journal, there was no one left with any genuine power to investigate or prosecute Clinton wrongdoing.
The first phase of the Clinton coup came on March 23, 1993. Only 11 days after becoming attorney general, Janet Reno called her first press conference to announce that she was firing all 93 U.S. attorneys and replacing them with Clinton loyalists. This was an unprecedented act. Phase 2 was equally unprecedented. Bill Clinton sacked FBI director William S. Sessions on July 19, 1993, on the pretext of various petty ethics charges.
"I love the FBI, and I hated to be the first president ever to have to fire a director," Clinton remarked at a press conference.
Sessions later claimed that the real reason for his dismissal was that he fought White House efforts to use the FBI for political purposes. And indeed, the Clintons – especially Hillary Clinton – had begun abusing the powers of the FBI almost since the day they took office.
Hillary's 1993 purge of the White House Travel Office provides a case in point. Her goal was to free up jobs for political cronies. Instead of dismissing the old employees quietly, Hillary orchestrated a massive smear campaign against them. The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and Justice Department were assigned to dig up dirt on Travel Office director Billy Dale and his team. Dale was prosecuted for embezzlement, his taxes audited, his FBI background file turned over to dirty-tricks specialists in the White House. Only after two and a half years of harassment was this innocent man finally cleared of criminal charges.
The paper trail leaves little doubt that Hillary was calling the shots in Travelgate. For instance, the notes of White House administrative director David Watkins show that, five days before the firings, Hillary said, "We need those people out – we need our people in. We need the slots." A Watkins memo further states that White House staffers knew "there would be hell to pay if ... we failed to take swift and decisive action with the first lady's wishes" regarding the Travel Office.
Hillary also appears to have masterminded the Filegate caper, in which the White House illegally commandeered from the FBI over a thousand secret background files on potential enemies. Several witnesses have stated that Craig Livingstone, the White House operative who obtained the files, was Hillary's agent, reporting directly to her.
FBI Director William Sessions reportedly protested these sorts of abuses. If true, it would appear that his integrity cost him his job. With Sessions out of the way, the FBI lost whatever trace remained of its fabled independence. The Bureau devolved into something resembling a personal secret police force for Bill and Hillary Clinton.
The Big Fix
Phase 3 of the Clinton coup finished the job. The Clintons proceeded to defang the federal judiciary. Between 1994 and 1998, they appointed seven new judges to the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. – all Clinton cronies. The new appointees nicknamed themselves the "Magnificent Seven" – a name that stuck until the Clintons appointed an eighth member to the team in 1998.
The Magnificent Seven scandalized their colleagues by holding closed meetings every month, from which other federal judges were excluded. "I cannot imagine any legitimate reason for them to meet together once a month, even socially," one courthouse official told the Washington Times. Another court official charged that the meetings "reek with impropriety."
Indeed they did. Throughout the Clinton years, these hand-picked judges issued ruling after ruling shielding the Clintons and their alleged accomplices from federal prosecutors.
It later came to light that the obstructive activities of the Magnificent Seven had been carefully coordinated. The Associated Press reported on July 31, 1999, that Carter-appointed judge Norma Holloway Johnson – chief U.S. district judge for Washington, D.C. – had flouted standard procedure by personally and secretly assigning Clinton-related cases to Clinton-appointed judges. Federal cases are ordinarily assigned at random, by a computer. But the Clinton judges followed their own rules. Whatever crimes the Clintons or their operatives may have committed, they now had little to fear from the law.
The congressional investigation of Travelgate set the tone for the Clintons' remaining years in office. The White House stonewalled five federal probes into this scandal, withholding key documents and witnesses. In the end, investigators simply gave up. "Never has a president and his staff done so much to cover up improper actions and hinder the public's right to learn the truth," noted William F. Clinger's House Government Reform and Oversight Committee in its Travelgate report.
Perhaps sensing the mood of the times, Prodigy – which was jointly owned by Sears and IBM – began censoring anti-Clinton discussions more aggressively. More and more frequently, articles critical of Bill and Hillary Clinton were pulled by Prodigy moderators.
One Prodigy poster – a programmer and software entrepreneur named Jim Robinson – later wrote, "I became frustrated with ... Prodigy's frequent threats to censor users of the Whitewater bulletin-board. In addition, I was also beginning to realize that the Internet was a much larger audience than Prodigy, which was a 'subscription' service which was accessed directly by modem, rather than being accessed by the Internet." Robinson launched his own website – FreeRepublic.com – in 1996.
In effect, Robinson chose to "light out for the territories" – the wide-open spaces of the unregulated Internet – rather than submit to corporate censorship. Millions would do likewise in the years ahead.
But those wide-open spaces were not as free as they seemed. By 1996, Hillary's plan to suppress dissident speech on the Net was already in motion.
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| | | 152 | sarge33rd
ID: 45522117 Sat, Jul 09, 2005, 09:11
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*YAWN* yet another tale of "the sky is falling" being resonated by our resident oft persecutd rightwing conspiracy theorist source.
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| | | 153 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Sat, Jul 09, 2005, 10:48
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That is a history lesson. And Hill has been quite explicit about wanting to censor the internet.
I will however point out that such comments are not limited to powerful Democrats.
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| | | 154 | sarge33rd
ID: 45522117 Sat, Jul 09, 2005, 22:27
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how would one censor the internet?
Define "the internet". Where is its "source"? You cannot censor this thing we call "the net'. Cant be done. Someone, somewhere, will find a way of posting whatever they desire, and no government can change that. That government can make it illegal to post it, they can make it illegal to access it, but the poster will simply route it through another land, and post from those domain servers. Viola, cant get themn for posting in violation of your laws. Its posted in a nation that allows it. Trying to censor the internet, is a little like trying to keep the insides of a sub dry, by closing the screendoor hatch.
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| | | 155 | Texas Flood
ID: 145442719 Sat, Jul 09, 2005, 22:31
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Al Gore is the source of the internet;).
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| | | 156 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Sat, Jul 09, 2005, 22:54
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It's really amazing how liberals can manage to be wrong so consistantly. China already has a fully censored internet and Microsoft helped them do it. Exactly how much freedom is any ISP going to give you if they are realistically threatened with lawsuits for letting you speak your mind? In addition the UN will find a way to tax the internet and then penalize speech they don't like. Mark my words. The freedom you now enjoy is a once time golden age of information that you may never see again.
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| | | 157 | Boldwin
ID: 426171711 Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 12:20
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*edit* Make that last line read once in a lifetime.
Funny WND poll results:
How would you best characterize Hillary Clinton?
52.75 Cunning and devious, the most dangerous woman in America
35.91% Evil incarnate, do the names Jezebel or Satan ring a bell? [my choice]
3.89% next largest response
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| | | 158 | Boldwin
ID: 426171711 Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 12:49
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On this day when Eric Rudolph is to be sentenced let us go back and remember the left's Steven Kangas , sort of a combination of Gannon/Guckert and Rudolph actually.on the Web, he had achieved something akin to celebrity. An entity calling itself the Robert F. Kennedy Democrats honored Kangas' "Liberalism Resurgent" page with its 1997 "Excelsior Award" for websites that "communicate the highest progressive ideals."
On his website, Kangas warned leftwing activists that their efforts would be wasted, "if they are not directed at the heart of the problem. It is absolutely critical to identify what the true core problem is, because all other problems in society stem from it." Evidently, Kangas had decided that Scaife was the "core problem." But why Scaife?
he set out to prove that Hillary was right, that there was indeed a vast and sinister conspiracy bent on toppling the Clintons. Like Hillary, Kangas painted the various Clinton scandals as frame-ups, funded by shadowy, rightwing moneymen. In his view – as in the view of many mainstream media commentators – the most prominent of the anti-Clinton moneymen was Richard Mellon Scaife. "Scaife is undoubtedly the most important figure behind the Clinton scandals," he writes. Nearly 60 percent of Kangas' 2,059-word text focuses on Scaife.
Significantly, Kangas charges that "Scaife is obsessed with proving that Vince Foster's suicide was actually a murder. He goes so far as to call his death 'the Rosetta Stone of the Clinton administration.'" Kangas also notes that Scaife had assigned a full-time reporter named Christopher Ruddy to investigate Foster's death.
We may never know for sure why Kangas took a gun to Scaife's office, nor why he decided, at the last minute, to shoot himself instead. We do know one thing, however. In the tortured recesses of Kangas' mind, the figure of Hillary loomed large. Kangas studied Hillary's words with care. He believed her story. He felt her pain. Kangas made Hillary's enemies his. In the final analysis, he may have died for her – shedding his blood to guard the secret of the Rosetta Stone. As long as we are going to be hanging albatrosses...and I am sure the MSM will provide this valuable comparison/perspective but just in case...
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| | | 159 | Tree
ID: 17639186 Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 14:35
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out of curiousity Baldwin, does your reference to Rudolph indicate you are burying him, or praising him?
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| | | 160 | Boldwin
ID: 426171711 Mon, Jul 18, 2005, 17:35
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I come not to praise Ceasar.
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| | | 161 | Boldwin
ID: 426171711 Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 04:14
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Hillary's war against the media: Nixon X 100.Richard Nixon fell from power largely due to his role in covering up the burglary of Democratic headquarters at the Watergate Hotel. But when burglars invaded the offices of Joseph Farah's Western Journalism Center in 1994, no national scandal ensued.
In order to raise funds for Ruddy's investigation, Farah had taken out full-page advertisements, first in the Washington Times, then subsequently in the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times. Farah's ads laid out the evidence of a cover-up and appealed for donations to keep the probe going.
Burglars entered Farah's office in Fair Oaks, Calif., soon after. Farah says:
"Nothing was stolen. They broke in through the roof of the building, entered into an adjacent office, turned the place upside down, stole nothing from any of the offices, and then exited through the locked front door by smashing the glass and going out. We had just gone very high-profile by taking out a full-page ad in the New York Times just the week before … so it was extremely coincidental."
Two years later, after Farah moved to new offices, burglars entered again. "Out of probably 20 offices in this larger complex, only our office was broken into, and again nothing was stolen," Farah recalls. In addition, he says, "Our mailbox in the post office was broken into. … I thought that was very suspicious. All in the same time period. … It just seemed like a lot of amazing coincidences."
The Troopergate burglaries
Farah was not the only Clinton critic to experience burglaries. R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr.'s American Spectator magazine also suffered break-ins during its reporting of the so-called "Troopergate" scandal. According to London Sunday Telegraph correspondent Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, the American Spectator "suffered these mysterious burglaries of its offices just at the time the [Troopergate] article was nearing completion." On the second such mission, Brown saw what was in the duffel bags. They were filled with one-kilo bricks of cocaine, in what he called "waxene-wrapped" packages. Frightened and angry, Brown went to Gov. Clinton and asked him point-blank if the CIA was running cocaine from Central America. "Oh no," Clinton reportedly said. "That's Lasater's deal." Several authors have explored the guns-for-drugs operation that allegedly ran out of Mena airport during Clinton's governorship. One such author – Pulitzer-prize-winning reporter Gary Webb, formerly of the San Jose Mercury News – was found dead in his home on Dec. 10, 2004, with a bullet wound in the head. His death was ruled a suicide.
The late Mr. Webb wrote of the Mena operation from a leftwing perspective. Others, such as American Spectator editor R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr., have written about Mena from a conservative perspective. Richard Mellon Scaife was not far off the mark when he called the Foster case "the Rosetta Stone to the Clinton administration." Foster's ghost seems to haunt virtually every Clinton cover-up of any significance. The Troopergate burglaries are no exception.
On Feb. 19, 2001 – shortly after the Clintons left office – Lord William Rees-Mogg wrote a scathing commentary about the Mena scandal in the Times of London, in which he plainly implied that Foster's death was connected to the drug-smuggling operations at Mena.
Rees-Mogg is a prominent and respected journalist, having served as editor of the Times for 14 years and subsequently as vice chairman of the BBC. Today he is chairman of NewsMax Media Inc. – the parent company which owns Christopher Ruddy's NewsMax.com.
In his February 2001 article, Rees-Mogg called the Mena airport affair "the biggest scandal of modern American history." He noted that "there were several suspicious deaths" connected to Mena, notably those of former Clinton security chief Jerry Parks and Vincent Foster, and that money from Mena "can be traced through Parks as far as Vince Foster. …" Rees-Mogg cited evidence that the late Foster was involved in the drug-smuggling business that revolved around Mena.
"In 1993, Parks was murdered by two unknown gunmen," noted Rees-Mogg. "He lived in a dangerous world, as, indeed, did Vince Foster, who was found dead in Fort Marcy Park, Virginia."
The world of Jerry Parks and Vincent Foster was indeed a dangerous place. Christopher Ruddy had entered that same "dangerous world" when he undertook the Foster investigation. Now, by daring to extend a helping hand to Ruddy, Joseph Farah had entered that world, too. That story proved to be Weiss's ticket to the in crowd. He later wrote in the New York Observer of Nov. 22, 1999:
I became a White House friend. I didn't realize it fully until later, but I was in. One Clinton friend called me to ask if he could put my Foster article on a pro-Clinton website. I was flattered, and naïve. I didn't understand that the war had already begun, and that on the Web the Clintonites were losing. Weiss had a friend in the White House named Chris Lehane, a lawyer who worked for Mark Fabiani. Readers will recall Fabiani from Part I of this series as the Clinton spinmeister
Weiss visited Lehane several times at the White House. On one of these visits, Weiss recalls that Lehane "proudly showed me a report he'd written. It was a thick blue looseleaf binder of news clippings interspersed with some analysis he'd written. It was titled, bizarrely, 'The Communication Stream of Conspiracy Commerce.'"
Weiss did not know it, but Lehane had just shown him one of the deepest secrets of Hillary's Shadow Team – a secret that Weiss was destined to betray. In the fall of 1996, the New York Times Magazine asked Philip Weiss to write a story on "Clinton haters," eventually published on Feb. 23, 1997. Weiss' assignment was to interview Clinton conspiracy theorists and portray them as nutcases. Weiss called up his friend Chris Lehane at the White House and requested another copy of The Communication Stream of Conspiracy Commerce, which arrived "bigger than ever," updated with plenty of fresh news clips. Before departing for Arkansas, Weiss met with Mark Fabiani at the White House.
The first call Weiss made when he arrived in Arkansas was to Linda Ives. Weiss knew from the conspiracy report that Mrs. Ives was a central figure in the so-called "boys on the tracks" case, also known as the "Train Deaths" case. Arkansas State Medical Examiner Fahmy Malak ruled the deaths "accidental," saying that the boys had passed out on the tracks after smoking too much marijuana. Malak, however, was notoriously corrupt and incompetent, and a local grand jury refused to close the case. The bodies were exhumed and outside pathologists brought in. The new medical team concluded that the boys had been murdered. Someone had beaten Kevin Ives with a rifle butt and stabbed Don Henry in the back. Most likely, they were already dead when their killers laid them on the tracks. The grand jury ruled that the boys' deaths were homicides.
Bit by bit, the real story began to leak out. The place where the boys died was known to local law enforcement as a drop zone for drug smugglers. Low-flying airplanes regularly dumped their contraband there for pickup. The boys had likely shown up at the wrong place at the wrong time. They had seen too much. Arkansas State Trooper L.D. Brown was ordered off the case in 1988. "I was told it had something to do with Mena and I was to get off it," Brown later explained.
Bill Clinton played a suspicious role in the cover-up. As governor, Clinton shielded his medical examiner, Fahmy Malak, who remained in office until 1992. As president, Clinton hamstrung the Train Deaths investigation for good.
As recounted earlier in this series, Clinton ordered the resignation of all 93 U.S. attorneys and replaced them with Clinton loyalists – something no other U.S. president had ever done. He then fired FBI director William Sessions on July 19, 1993, an act equally unprecedented in U.S. history. Finally, Clinton appointed former campaign worker and long-time crony Paula Casey as U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Arkansas. He pulled the FBI off the Train Deaths case and turned it over to Casey. The probe fizzled out. Kevin's mother, Linda Ives, has been seeking justice ever since.
Of his meeting with Mrs. Ives, Weiss later admitted that the three or four hours he spent with her changed his life. He writes:
The boys' murders had been blatantly covered up as an accident by Gov. Clinton's medical examiner, and when at last the state was forced to rule them homicides, they had never truly been investigated. The drug dealers were obviously politically connected. The story was nauseating and left me troubled about the White House counsel's office. Here was a woman as wronged as an Argentinian mother, still seeking justice, and the White House had lumped her in with the lunatic fringe. When I left Linda's house, late at night … I promised her I wouldn't sell her out. … I didn't realize it yet, but I was already becoming a Clinton-hater.
There was something else Weiss did not yet realize. In the three or four hours he had spent with Linda Ives, he had done something much more significant than simply begin to hate Clinton. He had jammed his foot in his mouth right up to the knee bone. Weiss had unwittingly blown the story of Hillary's secret war wide open.
Traitor to the cause
"Linda had been through hell, and she was a lot tougher than I was, and not nearly so naïve," Weiss recalls. "She'd asked me that night how I learned about her case and I'd glibly told her about the White House documents." Team had sent to ambush Linda Ives. A producer from "60 Minutes" had been there first. Former prosecutor Jean Duffey headed a drug task force in the Seventh Judicial District where the boys on the tracks were killed. Duffey's career in law enforcement came to an abrupt end when her Train Deaths probe began implicating public officials. She tells this story:
The summer before the White House sicced Weiss on Linda, Evalyn Lee, a "60 Minutes" producer, was sent on a similar mission. Again, after spending two days with Linda and me, Lee confessed that she was supposed to "befriend and interview" us and to "fold our interviews into a story about Clinton-bashers." According to Lee, the story was to air that fall before the '96 election and was supposed to boost support for Clinton. Lee said she had changed her mind about using us and planned to ask her superior to run a legitimate story about the Train Deaths. Of course, that never happened. One could argue that Hillary's secret war on "Clinton haters" made the White House, at the very least, an accomplice to murder after the fact. Vincent Foster may or may not have met foul play, but there is no question about the boys on the tracks. They were murdered. The Shadow Team's efforts to discredit Linda Ives plainly helped the boys' killers evade justice by discouraging further investigation. No matter. The scandal faded within days. Most Americans never heard about The Communication Stream of Conspiracy Commerce, and most have never heard about the Train Deaths.
Chris Lehane went on to become Al Gore's spokesman and later an adviser to presidential hopefuls Gen. Wesley Clark and John Kerry. He and Weiss no longer speak. In April 1996, Field Agent Cederquist submitted to Farah's Center an IRS "Information Document Request" which demanded, among other things, "Copies of all documents relating to the selection of Christopher Ruddy as an investigative reporter and how the topic was selected. Who was on the review committee?"
Accountant John Roux was shocked. What business did the IRS have questioning Farah's decision to fund Christopher Ruddy – or any other investigative reporter? In a face-to-face meeting, Roux confronted Cederquist over the strangely political flavor of his audit. It was then that Cederquist made his now-infamous declaration, "Look, this is a political case and the decision is going to be made at the national level."
For months, the Center devoted most of its manpower to dealing with the audit. It had to gather thousands of documents demanded by the IRS and pay a small fortune in accountants' and lawyers' fees. Worst of all, the nine-month audit cast a shadow over Farah's reputation. Contributors backed off for fear that the Center was about to lose its nonprofit status and that their donations would no longer be tax-exempt.
Other contributors, sensing the political nature of the audit, cut their ties with Farah for fear that they might be audited next. Those fears turned out to be well-founded. When Farah retained civil liberties lawyer Larry Klayman to sue the IRS in 1998, Klayman's Judicial Watch organization was immediately audited.
Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary even took it upon herself to contact one of Farah's major corporate donors and threaten to pull the donor's government contracts if he gave one more penny to the Western Journalism Center. "The warning was effective," Farah wrote later. "He has not donated any money since."
In the end, the Clinton administration's economic warfare succeeded in forcing Farah to cut staff and stop funding investigative reporters, including Ruddy. The long ordeal had crippled his operation. Joseph Farah broke the story of the IRS scandal nationally in an Oct. 22, 1996 op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal. In it, Farah traced his IRS troubles to a secret White House plan, concocted one month after Republicans swept Congress in 1994, to harass and neutralize Clinton critics.
Associate White House Counsel Jane Sherburne had drawn up a memo "naming names, outlining strategy and assigning staff to handle specific targets," wrote Farah. When congressional investigators obtained a copy of Sherburne's memo in September 1996, Farah discovered that he and his Western Journalism Center were targets. "When my article hit, it was like a bombshell," recalls Farah.
The Wall Street Journal mounted a crusade, publishing story after story on the IRS abuses. It soon became clear that few Clinton critics of any significance had been missed. Hillary's auditors hit dissident journalists particularly hard. Bill O'Reilly of Fox News was audited three years in a row, beginning the first year he launched "The O'Reilly Factor." Also hit was David Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture, which published the magazine Heterodoxy and the popular website FrontPageMagazine.com. Hillary's IRS targeted the National Review, the Heritage Foundation and R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr's American Spectator magazine.
As the IRS spun out of control, even left-of-center journalists began to worry. "The talk shows got on the political audits and even the liberals on those shows were saying, 'This is beyond the pale,'" says Farah. However, as with all Clinton scandals, the indignation proved ephemeral. IRS Commissioner Margaret Milner Richardson – a friend of Hillary who had worked on the Clinton campaign – quietly resigned in February 1997. And that was it. The political audits continued under her successor. And Bill Clinton's articles of impeachment, unlike Nixon's, contained no mention of IRS abuses. Our offices were broken into twice, our New York apartment once," Tyrrell recalls. "Thieves stole the manuscript to [Tyrell's book] 'Boy Clinton' while it was being sent across town to Bob Novak for a blurb. … [N]umerous instances of intimidation [were] attempted against Spectator staffers by Arkansas thugs."
Most damaging to the Spectator – and to press freedom generally – was an effort by the Clinton Justice Department to press criminal charges against Tyrrell and his associates for what turned out to be trumped up allegations of witness tampering. For 14 months, Scaife and various associates of the Spectator were hauled before investigators to testify. In the end, no charges were pressed. Scaife and the Spectator were exonerated. But the 14-month investigation nearly bankrupted Tyrrell's magazine. More importantly, it set a dangerous precedent in American politics.
"[T]he precedent had been set to harass writers and publications that print unfavorable news about government. … [T]he practice of criminally investigating opposition journalists has now been established. …" Tyrrell later wrote. Joseph Farah likes to joke that Hillary Clinton gave him the idea of publishing WorldNetDaily.com. And in a way she did. Inasmuch as Hillary appears to have masterminded The Communication Stream of Conspiracy Commerce, Hillary grasped the power of the Internet years before most of today's leading Web journalists.
It would seem that, as early as 1995, the first lady had already identified the Web as a threat to Big Media's information monopoly – and therefore to the Clintons' power. A dark prophetess of doom, Hillary decried the Internet's subversive potential at a time when dissident scribblers such as Farah were still trying to get their message out through printed newsletters and op-ed pieces in the Wall Street Journal. In 1999, after the Drudge Report had fulfilled Hillary's direst warnings, Farah called The Communication Stream of Conspiracy Commerce a "premonition" and a "prophetic nightmare." He wrote:
[R]emember that the White House was having this bad dream back in 1994-1995. This was long before anyone had ever heard of Matt Drudge. It was long before WorldNetDaily.com … was even on the drawing board. … Was it a premonition? Indeed, this was an administration doomed to scandal exposed by the Internet – the one form of mass communication its partisans in the old, establishment press couldn't seem to control. And, already, by early 1995, the White House could see the handwriting on the wall. … It doesn't take a Ph.D. in computer science to recognize that the Clintons and their political allies are scared of the Internet. They are clearly dying to get their hands on it – not for their own creative use, mind you, but for the purposes of control, for stifling free expression by others. When Farah first saw the report, he read through it in amazement, paying special attention to Section IX, which dealt with "The Internet Influence." Farah says:
The ironic part is that we were not utilizing the Internet very well back then. We did have a website called etruth.com, and it did get a high level of traffic. I was always surprised that there were more people reading our stuff on the Internet than were reading our newsletter. But it still never occurred to me that it had all that much potential until the Clintons connected the dots for me. When I saw that report, I became convinced that the Internet was the vehicle for keeping government under control, because if these guys were so scared of it, I felt we could do much more as journalists to utilize it. That report really was the genesis for WorldNetDaily.com.
More than any other factor, Hillary's fear of cyber-journalism alerted Farah to the power of the Net. Ultimately, it led him to focus his efforts on Web publishing. Many other dissident journalists made the same decision around the same time.
The Web Underground made a quantum leap from the newsgroups and message boards of the early '90s, when the Web had served mainly as a giant bulletin board to publicize articles from newspapers and magazines. Now it began generating its own reportage, much of it high-caliber investigative work, assigned and edited by news professionals such as Ruddy and Farah.
The Web Underground completed its metamorphosis just in time. It would play a decisive role in stopping the Democrats from stealing the 2000 election. Postscript: I spent a lot of time exposing the Clintons on the liberals favorite forum, Salon TableTalk during the time period desribed here. It is the only time I have ever been audited by the IRS.
There was no reason I would have been red flagged and I had overpaid.
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| | | 163 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:09
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Actually, WorldNetDaily has the money exchange:In the Monday interview, Deutsch asked Coulter: "If you had your way ... and your dreams, which are genuine, came true ... what would this country look like?"
"It would look like New York City during the [2004] Republican National Convention.," Coulter said. "In fact, that's what I think heaven is going to look like."
In her recollection of the convention, she said: "People were happy. They're Christian. They're tolerant. They defend America."
"It would be better if we were all Christian?" Deutsch asked.
"Yes," she said.
Later, Deutsch returned to the subject, saying: "[Y]ou said we should throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians."
"Yes," she replied again.
When pressed by Deutsch regarding whether she wanted to be like "the head of Iran" and "wipe Israel off the Earth," Coulter stated: "No, we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say. ... That's what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express. You have to obey laws."
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| | | 164 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:10
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AC needs to be muzzled.
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| | | 165 | biliruben
ID: 17502215 Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:14
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Hopefully that's her Jimmy the Greek moment, and she will now be marginalized and we never have to see or hear Her Nastiness again.
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| | | 166 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:04
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Doubt it. I don’t think the mainstream liberal media will have any impact. In fact, I think the right’s disdain for the liberal media might even result in a pro-Coulter backlash effect if the major network and print outlets run with this story.
And the right’s larger national outlets (FOX, WSJ editorial page, The National Review) tend to shy far away ripping their own.
Here's John Podhoretz' reaction at the corner: There's a lot of buzz about how Ann Coulter said on TV that Christians want Jews to be "perfected," presumably through conversion. Speaking for all Jews, I would be delighted to be perfected, and I'm intrigued by the suggestion that it might be possible. Of course, it all depends on what your definition of being perfected might be. If I could be assured that conversion to Christianity would instantly cause me to lose 80 lbs., give me infinite patience when my daughters wake me up at 5 in the morning, allow me to read 100 pages an hour with total recall, feel complete indifference when some @$%&^ cuts me off in traffic, grow my hair back on the top of my head and make it disappear from my ears, and keep me from checking my Amazon ranking when I have a book out, I would seriously consider it. Also, if a real African potentate's widow actually did want to deposit tens of millions of dollars in my bank account and give me a parking fee of 6 percent for my trouble, you know what, that would be good too. Yeah, way to let her have it, John.
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| | | 167 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:12
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Wonder what his comments would be, had it been a Jewish speaker suggesting that all Christians should be "perfected" and accept the Jewish faith as the one true faith thereby "fast tracking" their ascension as members of the "chosen". Would he go so easily on that hypothetical commentary?
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| | | 168 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:16
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I haven't read much Podhoretz. My bias tempts me to believe it depends mostly on the political affiliation of the speaker.
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| | | 169 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 04:24
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She's a conservative and he's a leading light, early neocon who led the revolution for decades which would go on to usurp the Reagan Revolution.
Not sure even she get's that.
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| | | 170 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:13
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I'm much more interested in your reaction to Coulter's recent statement than I am Podhoretz', B.
While I imagine you don't necesarily disagree with her I do have trouble believing you could make the same statements to the face of an interviewer who is a practicing Jew.
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| | | 171 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 09:16
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Also - I realize I put this in the wrong thread. Sorry about that. Maybe any further posts on this topic should go in the Ann Coulter thread.
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| | | 172 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Sun, Oct 14, 2007, 17:26
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I read many year's worth of Commentary after Watergate. That is basically the highbrow neocon flagship magazine and a Podhoretz family business. Sort of a neocon National Review.
Then again Bill Buckley somehow got moved out and the neocons moved in over there too. You can call it a retirement but I have my doubts.
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| | | 173 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Sun, Oct 14, 2007, 17:28
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I'm much more interested in your reaction to Coulter's recent statement than I am Podhoretz', B.
While I imagine you don't necesarily disagree with her I do have trouble believing you could make the same statements to the face of an interviewer who is a practicing Jew. - MITH
You take me for a word mincer?
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| | | 174 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Sun, Oct 14, 2007, 17:30
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Granted I wouldn't be in my poliboard persona when that subject came up.
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| | | 175 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Sun, Oct 14, 2007, 17:49
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Why a serious Poliboard poster should know something about the Podhoretz family project as much as the Bush family project.
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| | | 176 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 09:30
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You take me for a word mincer?...
Granted I wouldn't be in my poliboard persona when that subject came up.
Over the years you've written about the topic frequently enough and even in your "poliboard persona" you've never onnce described yourself as a 'perfected' anything. To see you defend that word choice is very strange.
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| | | 177 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 23:54
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Would she actually write that she or anyone was perfect if she were writing a book? 'Close enuff for government work' as they say, she was speaking off the cuff. Improved...perfected...
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| | | 178 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 00:00
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If you really wanted to get talmudical about it...8]...
Let's really split hairs. PD does some editing. He is in the proccess of perfecting the work. The work can be described as having been perfected, no matter whether PD actually succeeded.
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| | | 179 | Tree
ID: 219471516 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 00:04
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He is in the proccess of perfecting the work. The work can be described as having been perfected, no matter whether PD actually succeeded.
context is everything. and you couldn't have picked two different contexts if you tried.
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| | | 180 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 00:34
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It helps if you actually know all the possible meanings of a word.
Oh, and Tree, you'd make a great deconstructionist if you had any grey matter above the amygdala.
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| | | 181 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 00:48
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she was speaking off the cuff.
She speaks well on her feet. I can't think of anyone I've ever seen react better to having a pie thrown at her. Would you say that difficult questions frequently rattle her to a loss for words in TV interviews?
She used the word four times in a reletively short interview. At one point, they came back from commercial break and Deutsch stated that Ann wanted a fair chance to explain herself. Thats when she explained that Christians are "perfected Jews" - right after having the break to consider her words and without being interrupted.
Isn't it possible that shes just a theological simpleton who's usually ugly agressiveness, even toned down as much as she seems to be able, exposes her misconceptions?
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| | | 182 | Baldwin
ID: 125312919 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 00:58
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I think you are entirely missing her point.
To tell someone they were on the right track until they missed the cloverleaf is not somehow calling them out for special criticism.
Yes they need to get back on the right track. It's not ugly. If you get lost I hope someone would actually have the good will to point you in the right direction, not pat you on the back and tell you to just keep going the same way you were going.
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| | | 183 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 07:32
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I think you're missing my point. I'm not accusing her of calling "them out for special criticism."
I'm accusing her of failing to understand a basic principle of her own faith. You're making excuses for her, forgiving words she repeatedly used, insisting the benefit of doubt that she must know better. I'm taking her at face value.
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| | | 185 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 08:55
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re: post 184
it was only a matter of time before Yehuda Levin chimed in. that's the same Yehuda Levin who had tried to get a Gay Pride parade banned in Jerusalem, and worked on the political campaign of Pat Buchanan, no stranger to anti-Semitic comments himself.
in regard to the parade, Levin said "I promise there's going to be bloodshed - not just on that day, but for months afterward.
oh yea, and it oughta be mentioned that not only has Levin claimed that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment against sinful Americans, but - wait for it, and you probably know where this is going based on the Katrina comment and his homophobia - Yehuda Levin has worked hand in hand with the ever-bubbly Reverend Fred Phelps.
Yehuda Levin is a piece of $hit, and his words hold no water for this Jew.
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| | | 186 | J-Bar
ID: 14461512 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 10:58
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and what he means to a non-practicing Jew is important
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| | | 187 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 12:35
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and what he means to a non-practicing Jew is important
care to elaborate? i don't know what you're getting at.
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| | | 188 | J-Bar
ID: 569331511 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 12:58
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your opinion of Levin, not relevant but it is your opinion anti gay, anti abortion = piece of $hit
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| | | 189 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 13:55
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your opinion of Levin, not relevant but it is your opinion anti gay, anti abortion = piece of $hit
well, it's a bit more than that. the Katrina bit, hanging out Fred Phelps, and him advocating violence against homosexuals make not just a piece of crap, but also bat$hit crazy, and not exactly someone who's opinion or stance i would hang my hat on.
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| | | 190 | J-Bar
ID: 569331511 Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 19:02
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he is still a leader in the Jewish community that should be able to speak to "anti-semitic" statements but whatever.
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