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| Posted by: Perm Dude
- Dude [30792616] Thu, Nov 20, 2003, 20:46
Yahoo article
This piece is about the British citizens being held in Guantanamo Bay with other "enemies" in the War on Terror. But what struck me is this line:
A federal judge has ruled that the foreign detainees are not entitled to appeal in U.S. courts against their detention in Guantanamo because the base is not U.S. territory.
Sounds like Bush might be setting up a nice little kangaroo court down there... |
| | | 1 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 391032019 Thu, Nov 20, 2003, 21:51
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Which, incidently is pure bullsh*t. All permanent military bases and warships are, by international law, soverign territories of the country which owns them.
Or are we now willing to cede Gitmo to Fidel because it's "not our territory"?
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| | | 2 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, Dec 06, 2005, 14:42
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I am sure there is more info in some other thread, but can't find it at the moment:
One Man's Satire Is Another's Open-Ended Detainment Without Charges
We're a bit late on this item because, frankly, the implications are terrifying. Afghani brothers Badr Zaman Badr and Abdurrahim Muslim Dost were released at the end of October from three years' detention in Guantanamo. The activity that drew the attention of military interrogators was a satirical piece that Dost wrote in reply to Bill Clinton's 1998 $5 million bounty for the capture of Osama bin Laden in the wake of the US embassy bombing in Tanzania and Kenya. Dost counterproposal: Offer up 5 million Afghanis--valued at roughly $113--in return for the capture of Bill Clinton, described in Dost's piece as "clean-shaven, having light-colored eyes and he had been seen involved in a scandal with Monica Lewinsky." The brothers saw a long march of interrogators, several flown down from Washington, over their three year ordeal, and they proved a tough crowd indeed: "Again and again, they were asking questions about this article," Dost told Newsday reporter James Rupert. "We had to explain this was a satire. It was really pathetic."
Pentagon spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico--who on the basis of his name alone appears to be a satirical charcter himself--insists the brothers' detention "was directly related to their combat activities [or support] as determined by an appropriate Department of Defense official." Even though the brothers were dubbed "enemy combatants" they are still anything but averse to US-style democracy: Americans "have freedom to criticize their government, and this is very good," Badr told Rupert. "We know that America's laws say that a person is innocent until proven guilty" except of course that "for us it was the opposite."
You know, maybe the DoD really does understand satire, after all
Wonkette
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| | | 3 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Tue, Dec 06, 2005, 16:22
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This is the sort of thing that is rapidly turning America into a pariah among civilized nations.
Don
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| | | 4 | sarge33rd
ID: 148422311 Tue, Dec 06, 2005, 16:40
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this is the result of our last 2 Presidential election cycles. Nothing more, nothing less.
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| | | 5 | biliruben
ID: 531202411 Sun, Feb 12, 2006, 12:08
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Torturing the innocent.
A high percentage, perhaps the majority, of the 500-odd men now held at Guantanamo were not captured on any battlefield, let alone on "the battlefield in Afghanistan" (as Bush asserted) while "trying to kill American forces" (as McClellan claimed).
Fewer than 20 percent of the Guantanamo detainees, the best available evidence suggests, have ever been Qaeda members.
Many scores, and perhaps hundreds, of the detainees were not even Taliban foot soldiers, let alone Qaeda terrorists. They were innocent, wrongly seized noncombatants with no intention of joining the Qaeda campaign to murder Americans.
The majority were not captured by U.S. forces but rather handed over by reward-seeking Pakistanis and Afghan warlords and by villagers of highly doubtful reliability.
These locals had strong incentives to tar as terrorists any and all Arabs they could get their hands on as the Arabs fled war-torn Afghanistan in late 2001 and 2002 -- including noncombatant teachers and humanitarian workers. And the Bush administration has apparently made very little effort to corroborate the plausible claims of innocence detailed by many of the men who were handed over.
(These are people, let us note, who have been held for more than four years now in conditions so horrible that scores of them are trying to starve themselves to death, and are being prevented from doing so by force-feeding.)
And the bottom line:
Bush has also pledged that the Guantanamo detainees are treated "humanely." At the same time, he has stressed, "I know for certain ... that these are bad people" -- all of them, he has implied.
If the president believes either of these assertions, he is a fool. If he does not, choose your own word for him.
The idea that, as a matter of organizational reality, torture could be restricted to a narrow class of "ticking bomb" cases never really passed the straight-face test. Torture is a power that no human being, or institution composed of human beings, can be trusted to possess.
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| | | 6 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Sun, Feb 12, 2006, 13:01
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And the Bush administration has apparently made very little effort to corroborate the plausible claims of innocence detailed by many of the men who were handed over.
This sentence could easily be rewriteen to read;
And the Bush administration has apparently made very little effort to comply with either International Law, or their own US Constitution.
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| | | 7 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Sun, Feb 12, 2006, 13:11
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Nice find, bili.
Any chance you can work up a quick DPS post on this?
:)
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| | | 9 | revvingparson
ID: 4751597 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 17:43
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Before people get too too excited by the decision it is worth reading Robert's opinion
Also there may be some unintended consequences
Possible ramifications: 1. More "battlefield executions" a bullet in the head saves a whole lot of time in court
2. From the second article What does this mean? Well, it means that detainees at Guantanamo could be transferred out of the reach of the new habeas process if the governments of Afghanistan, Iraq or other allies (some of whom have been known to swiftly behead such people upon their transfer) request that we do so. In other words, if the new procedures prove onerous in practice or run the risk of revealing classified information to our enemies, the unintended consequence of the decision to strike down procedures enacted by the U.S. Congress may be instead to substitute procedures provided by the Afghan or Iraqi governments. (Can you say, "rendition," boys and girls? I knew you could!) Even five Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court cannot repeal the law of unintended consequences.
3. Rather than telling Congress to address the issue or setting up guidelines for the lower courts to follow, the majority in this decision have set up the potential for undue delay while various courts and judges make decisions which will then be appealed back to the Supremes (read Robert's opinion)which spells even more delay in the justice system. From Robert's opinion It is also fruitless. How the detainees’ claims will be decided now that the DTA is gone is anybody’s guess. But the habeas process the Court mandates will most likely end up looking a lot like the DTA system it replaces, as the district court judges shaping it will have to reconcile review of the prisoners’ detention with the undoubted need to protect the American people from the terrorist threat—precisely the challenge Congress undertook in drafting the DTA. All that today’s opinion has done is shift responsibility for those sensitive foreign policy and national security decisions from the elected branches to the Federal Judiciary.
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| | | 10 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 18:37
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revvingparson: I completely agree. All this is going to do is increase the amount of secret prisons in other countries and could quite actually lead to even worse treatment of the detainees. Those who wanted this decision today should have been careful what they wished for.
This is also going to make achievements in the War On Terror harder to advertise. If we capture Zawahiri and want info out of him, why send him to Gitmo now? Then it's not like we can advertise that we got him and he's getting his toe nails yanked out in some Egyptian dungeon.
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| | | 11 | biliruben
ID: 52561217 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 18:42
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Y'all are talking like it's not, you know, up to us, the citizens of this great country, whether we torture people.
Vote the evil fuknuts out who thought this kinda abomination of what our country stands for was a swell idea.
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| | | 12 | walk
ID: 4952035 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 20:27
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Right on, bili! Box, I would say, at best, only until Bush's term runs out. Then when President Obama is sworn in, this stuff will start to stop. I think even McCain is not for torture and suspension of habeus corpus, but am not sure about the latter.
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| | | 13 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 20:36
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Box, I would say, at best, only until Bush's term runs out. Then when President Obama is sworn in, this stuff will start to stop. I think even McCain is not for torture and suspension of habeus corpus, but am not sure about the latter.
I couldn't disagree more. The CIA has done questionable things regardless of who has been President. At least Gitmo gave people something to point at and yell "Bad!"; now you won't even have that. You will have an increase in secret prison activity and occurances as mentioned in post 9.
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| | | 14 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 20:49
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We must prevent detainees from challenging their improsonment in order to keep most of the torture that the the US Government performs on American soil?
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| | | 15 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 20:59
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We must prevent detainees from challenging their improsonment in order to keep most of the torture that the the US Government performs on American soil?
Do you really forsee the gov't or the CIA giving up their juicy captures as a result of this? Is it not obvious as to how this ruling will be skirted?
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| | | 16 | Perm Dude
ID: 420241913 Thu, Jun 12, 2008, 22:42
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That's a recipe for nonaction, Boxman. It's like saying we should get rid of speeding laws because some people will continue to do so even after a clampdown.
The CIA was encouraged in all this be the current Administration. We need to do the right thing, no matter if the CIA tries to run and hide.
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| | | 17 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 06:12
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We need to do the right thing, no matter if the CIA tries to run and hide.
And that's a really noble thought, but it's completely useless and ineffective.
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| | | 18 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 08:21
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Uncovering secret prisons are why we have numerous bodies with the authority to conduct extensive investigations. I'd rather keep torture illegal and see heads roll when we uncover it than the defeatist, unAmerican and unpatriotic alternative of shrugging my shoulders and pretending there's nothing anyone can do about it.
It's quite telling when one side relies on useless symbolic measures like lapel pins to vet the patriotism of presidential candidates while declaring defeat on the prevention of human right's atrocities at the hands of our government.
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| | | 19 | walk
ID: 4952035 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 08:50
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So Box are you saying that just because the CIA will continue to do torture and stuff, we should not TRY and stop torture and stuff?
What if it was pedophilia we are talking about, and you have kids...I mean that argument logically extends to all laws and moral and ethical decisions, no? What is your point? That we should just shrug our shoulders and look the other way? That's not what I want from my country or my government. I want an attempt to rectify freedoms and due process and I want this to be resolved...I think it's okay to have such hopes. I will not succumb to learned helplessness (cf. Seligman)
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| | | 21 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 13:14
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So Box are you saying that just because the CIA will continue to do torture and stuff, we should not TRY and stop torture and stuff?
Remember your Yoda. ;)
Try not, do, or do not. There is no try.
If a goal here is to stop torture and get these guys some sort of "rights", I think rewriting official CIA or gov't policy on torture and secret prisons would be much more effective and timeworthy.
You liberals like to bust the "backalley abortion" comment when people like me talk about banning abortion. Your logic is that if it's illegal, people will just go behind a dumpster and have it done illegally.
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| | | 22 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 13:40
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If a goal here is to stop torture and get these guys some sort of "rights"
The goal is to allow prisoners detained by the US government the right to ask them to justify their detention.
I think rewriting official CIA or gov't policy on torture and secret prisons would be much more effective and timeworthy.
As far as I know the official government and CIA policy on torture and secret prisons are that they are explicitly prohibited. Am I mistaken?
the "backalley abortion"
There are numerous stark differences: 1. I'm quite sure that you reject out of hand the notion that the certain rise of backalley abortions is a valid reason to keep abortions legal. Unless I'm mistaken there, this is rather blatent hypocrisy on your part, Mr. Boxman. You can't have it both ways.
2. Before you charge me with the same, note that backalley abortions are but one of numerous arguments RvW suppoters cite. You, on the other hand, have offered foreign secret torture camps as your only response to Boumedien.
3. Further, atrocities committed by our government (whether you call them inevitiblities or not) are always more detestable than those committed by citizens. I understand that this is why you oppose legal abortion, but you seem to fail to realize that you demand it both ways.
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| | | 23 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 13:48
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As far as I know the official government and CIA policy on torture and secret prisons are that they are explicitly prohibited. Am I mistaken?
So they must not exist? Do you believe this to be so?
I'm quite sure that you reject out of hand the notion that the certain rise of backalley abortions is a valid reason to keep abortions legal. Unless I'm mistaken there, this is rather blatent hypocrisy on your part, Mr. Boxman. You can't have it both ways.
Just throwing liberal "logic" back at you. Enjoy.
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| | | 24 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 13:53
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So they must not exist? Do you believe this to be so?
Huh? You said the most effective way to stop these secret prisons it to rewrite policy. As far as I know the written policy is as it should be. What change are you going to make to the policy? What is the policy?
Just throwing liberal "logic" back at you.
You do seem to promote a lot of arguments around here that you tell us out of the other side of your mouth that you do not support.
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| | | 25 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 14:00
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What change are you going to make to the policy?
Enforce it--with teeth.
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| | | 26 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 14:07
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Enforce it
Agreed, fully.
That said, you're now talking about doing something other than rewriting the policy. This circular argument becomes yet another case in point for the last sentence of post 24.
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| | | 27 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 14:30
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That said, you're now talking about doing something other than rewriting the policy.
Not true.
Obviously if the policy is not working it needs to be rewritten, no?
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| | | 28 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 14:40
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This discussion has devolved. Find and link the policy you're talking about and tell me what is supposed to change.
How this line of "reasoning" is supposed preclude allowing detainees the right to ask the US Government to justify their detention is beyond me.
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| | | 29 | Perm Dude
ID: 54531139 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 14:41
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Well now, there's a can of worms! "Working" to do what? The Administration felt that the "no torture" policy didn't protect people who wanted to, in fact, torture. And so they re-wrote it to protect their own asses.
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| | | 30 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Fri, Jun 13, 2008, 15:09
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McCain on BoumedienThe United States Supreme Court yesterday rendered a decision which I think is one of the worst decisions in the history of this country. Sen. Graham and Sen. Lieberman and I had worked very hard to make sure that we didn't torture any prisoners, that we didn't mistreat them, that we abided by the Geneva Conventions, which applies to all prisoners. But we also made it perfectly clear, and I won't go through all the legislation we passed, and the prohibition against torture, but we made it very clear that these are enemy combatants, these are people who are not citizens, they do not and never have been given the rights that citizens of this country have. And my friends there are some bad people down there. There are some bad people. So now what are we going to do. We are now going to have the courts flooded with so-called, quote, Habeas Corpus suits against the government, whether it be about the diet, whether it be about the reading material. And we are going to be bollixed up in a way that is terribly unfortunate, because we need to go ahead and adjudicate these cases. By the way, 30 of the people who have already been released from Guantanamo Bay have already tried to attack America again, one of them just a couple weeks ago, a suicide bomber in Iraq. Our first obligation is the safety and security of this nation, and the men and women who defend it. This decision will harm our ability to do that.
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| | | 31 | Jag
ID: 28457122 Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 00:03
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Great job Liberals, leave it to you guys to either get American soldiers killed or have these detainess torture in ways a hell of a lot worse than the couple of minutes of waterboarding 2 or 3 received here. You have absolutely no concern about the deaths their release could cause for our soldiers or the unspeakable treatment the detainees will face in a 3rd world prison. It is all about your damn left-wing agenda and to hell with the consequences. And you guys call George Bush dangerous, of all the moronic and semi-literate statements he has made, nothing compares to insanity of some of the posts here.
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| | | 32 | Perm Dude
ID: 420241913 Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 00:43
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What a loser. You can't even see that torture means bad intelligence being used by our soldiers. What does bad intelligence get you? Killed.
Idiot.
Obviously you have no first or even second-hand knowledge of what soldiers want or need. So SFTU about what you think is in the best interest of our soldiers.
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| | | 33 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 09:18
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George Will: Contempt Of Courts - McCain's Posturing On Guantanamo The day after the Supreme Court ruled that detainees imprisoned at Guantanamo are entitled to seek habeas corpus hearings, John McCain called it "one of the worst decisions in the history of this country." Well.
Does it rank with Dred Scott v. Sanford (1857), which concocted a constitutional right, unmentioned in the document, to own slaves and held that black people have no rights that white people are bound to respect? With Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which affirmed the constitutionality of legally enforced racial segregation? With Korematsu v. United States (1944), which affirmed the wartime right to sweep American citizens of Japanese ancestry into concentration camps?
Did McCain's extravagant condemnation of the court's habeas ruling result from his reading the 126 pages of opinions and dissents? More likely, some clever ignoramus convinced him that this decision could make the Supreme Court -- meaning, which candidate would select the best judicial nominees -- a campaign issue.
The decision, however, was 5 to 4. The nine justices are of varying quality, but there are not five fools or knaves. The question of the detainees' -- and the government's -- rights is a matter about which intelligent people of good will can differ.
The purpose of a writ of habeas corpus is to cause a government to release a prisoner or show through due process why the prisoner should be held. Of Guantanamo's approximately 270 detainees, many certainly are dangerous "enemy combatants." Some probably are not. None will be released by the court's decision, which does not even guarantee a right to a hearing. Rather, it guarantees only a right to request a hearing. Courts retain considerable discretion regarding such requests.
As such, the Supreme Court's ruling only begins marking a boundary against government's otherwise boundless power to detain people indefinitely, treating Guantanamo as (in Barack Obama's characterization) "a legal black hole." And public habeas hearings might benefit the Bush administration by reminding Americans how bad its worst enemies are.
McCain, co-author of the McCain-Feingold law that abridges the right of free political speech, has referred disparagingly to, as he puts it, "quote 'First Amendment rights.' " Now he dismissively speaks of "so-called, quote 'habeas corpus suits.' " He who wants to reassure constitutionalist conservatives that he understands the importance of limited government should be reminded why the habeas right has long been known as "the great writ of liberty."
No state power is more fearsome than the power to imprison. Hence the habeas right has been at the heart of the centuries-long struggle to constrain governments, a struggle in which the greatest event was the writing of America's Constitution, which limits Congress's power to revoke habeas corpus to periods of rebellion or invasion. Is it, as McCain suggests, indefensible to conclude that Congress exceeded its authority when, with the Military Commissions Act (2006), it withdrew any federal court jurisdiction over the detainees' habeas claims?
As the conservative and libertarian Cato Institute argued in its amicus brief in support of the petitioning detainees, habeas, in the context of U.S. constitutional law, "is a separation of powers principle" involving the judicial and executive branches. The latter cannot be the only judge of its own judgment.
In Marbury v. Madison (1803), which launched and validated judicial supervision of America's democratic government, Chief Justice John Marshall asked: "To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing, if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?" Those are pertinent questions for McCain, who aspires to take the presidential oath to defend the Constitution.
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| | | 34 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 11:32
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Look, I don't want folks "re-attacking" us either, Jag, but we don't know that these detainees are guilty, and they don't even know what they have been charged with. It is not our god-like right to cast out a net and capture these folks, torture them, detain them indefinitely, and then just ass-u-me that all or most of them are guilty. That is not American or civilized. We need to figure out a way to capture them, interrogate them without torture, and give them Geneva-convention level due process, and then try them and convict them, hopefully, if they are guilty.
McCain's ass-upmption is that everyone we capture is guilty.
Others who favor the torture ass-u-me that the information yielded is accurate, but also don't care that we torture. Torture is not American nor civilized.
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| | | 35 | Jag
ID: 28457122 Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:53
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Walk, I agree it is not a black and white issue, but the giddiness from the Liberals on the court decision was revolting. There is a very good chance if some get released they could kill our soldiers and that is nothing to cheer about, I don't care how much you hate Bush.
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| | | 36 | DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415 Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 17:28
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So, figure out which ones are the bad guys, and let the other ones go. Doesn't seem to be THAT difficult a decision, does it?
And yes, we may get it wrong. Happens all the time. Doesn't make it a valid excuse to lock them all up and throw away the keys.
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