| Posted by: Skidawg
- [321092023] Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 12:25
The Diane Sawyer of the President included his statement. The transcript can be found here:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/US/bush_sawyer_excerpts_2_031216.html
"DIANE SAWYER: But let me try to ask ? this could be a long question. ... ... When you take a look back, Vice President Cheney said there is no doubt, Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, not programs, not intent. There is no doubt he has weapons of mass destruction. Secretary Powell said 100 to 500 tons of chemical weapons and now the inspectors say that there's no evidence of these weapons existing right now. The yellow cake in Niger, in Niger. George Tenet has said that shouldn't have been in your speech. Secretary Powell talked about mobile labs. Again, the intelligence ? the inspectors have said they can't confirm this, they can't corroborate.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Yet.
DIANE SAWYER: ? an active ?
PRESIDENT BUSH: Yet.
DIANE SAWYER: Is it yet?
PRESIDENT BUSH: But what David Kay did discover was they had a weapons program, and had that, that ? let me finish for a second. Now it's more extensive than, than missiles. Had that knowledge been examined by the United Nations or had David Kay's report been placed in front of the United Nations, he, he, Saddam Hussein, would have been in material breach of 1441, which meant it was a causis belli. And look, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a dangerous person, and there's no doubt we had a body of evidence proving that, and there is no doubt that the president must act, after 9/11, to make America a more secure country.
DIANE SAWYER: Again, I'm just trying to ask, these are supporters, people who believed in the war who have asked the question.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, you can keep asking the question and my answer's gonna be the same. Saddam was a danger and the world is better off cause we got rid of him.
DIANE SAWYER: But stated as a hard fact, that there were weapons of mass destruction as opposed to the possibility that he could move to acquire those weapons still ?
PRESIDENT BUSH: So what's the difference? "
So a U.S. President directly lied to the American public? I've never heard of such a thing..:)
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| 1 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 13:20
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typical Bush arrogance...
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| 2 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 3611591712 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 14:25
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Why should W give a f*ck? He got his war, got rid of Saddam, and barely took a hit in the polls even as it became (becomes) clearer and clearer that the administration deliberately misled both the public and Congress with regards to the WMD.
The fact is we'll never know the real reason(s) we invaded Iraq. The humanitarian line is a total crock, as there are at least a dozen other countries around the globe (but mostly in Africa, an entire continent we regularly ignore) that have despotic leaders who slaughter their people wholesale. And keep in mind many of the atrocity numbers were actually bloated due to our turning a blind eye after encouraging the Kurds and other minorities to rise up after the first Gulf "war". The WMD excuse is equally as flimsy, given the fact that North Korea was, and remains a much more realistic WMD threat to the US and our interests around the globe. But tangling with Pyongyang means getting messy with China and most of SE Asia - a politically untenable position.
So yeah, it's completely understandable how King George can afford to go on TV and be a smarmy, smug frat boy who has gotten things his way for his whole life - who's going to shut him up? We do, after all, live in an atmosphere where the ends is the most important component of the moral compass, and instant gratification is king.
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| 3 | Motley Crue Donor
ID: 610391711 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 14:34
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Hey, no fair! I'm a smarmy, smug frat boy! I wanna be on TV!
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| 4 | j o s h
ID: 4811101710 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 14:36
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yankeeh8tr- I think you left out he got the guy that attempted to assasinate his dad, and as importantly, may have cost him a second term as president.
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| 5 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 141046261 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 14:37
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Bush I lost the election because he raised taxes when he said he wouldn't. I don't know of anyone who didn't vote for him because he didn't take out Saddam at the time.
pd
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| 6 | yankeeh8tr Donor
ID: 3611591712 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 15:27
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Yes, yes, yes, Saddam tried to kill Poppy - and came how close exactly? Oh yeah - not close at all. Or maybe only as close as we came to assassinating Saddam during the start of the "war".
And PD is right - George the first lost his re-election bid on taxes and the economy, not Saddam.
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| 7 | j o s h
ID: 4811101710 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 15:29
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I remember at the time there was the perception that George 1 could have gone farther and taken out Suddam. Yeah, I know it was the economy.
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| 8 | katietx
ID: 109311616 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 23:43
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I'm wondering when we will be finished beating the dead horse.
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| 9 | sarge33rd
ID: 2411361315 Wed, Dec 17, 2003, 23:47
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Geo I certainly could NOT have gone further back in 1991. Take it from one who wore the uniform at the time. The coalition which had been assembled, was a tenuous and fragile affair. So much so, that even when Saddam began raining SCUD's down upon Isreal, we had to beg Isreal not to to respond, as it would have torn the coalition asunder. Instead, we stationed multiple Pattriot Batteries around Isreal, to provide a pretty fair measure of air defense.
This same coalition, had Geo I tried to go further, would have turned around and engaged our own troops. Consider the city cop who shows up at a domestic dispute. He steps in to break it up, next thing he knows...BOTh of the folks have turned on him and now he is under attack. Same thing would have happened there, had Geo I tried to run counter to the then world mandate (and UN mandate for that matter) by continuing into Baghdad.
Militarily, would it have been sound to keep going? Of course. Much as Geo Patton wanted to keep going and engage the Soviets at the end of WWII. It would NOT have been feasible however.
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| 10 | j o s h
ID: 4811101710 Thu, Dec 18, 2003, 02:24
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#4 and as importantly, may have cost him a second term as president I know better. That should read more like, there were utterances here and there through the 90's that we should have marched to Baghdad and finished off Suddam in the gulf war.
sarge #9 The coalition which had been assembled, was a tenuous and fragile affair. Ageed 100%. It wasn't at all feasible.
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| 13 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 15:00
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Getting back to the original quote that spawned this thread ... Andrew Sullivan, who's pretty unabashed about supporting Bush and the war, comments:
When challenged on the important question of whether stockpiles of Saddam's WMDs have been found in contrast to mere infrastructure, plans, and scientists, the president told Diane Sawyer, "What's the difference?" The glibness of that response still rankles. There was no difference to the president as long as the politics worked out okay, and, in general, he made the right decision. But someone who cannot anguish over his own mistakes may be doomed to repeat them. Integrity means the ability to question yourself. It does not mean the peremptory dismissal of all criticism. (This post, and the next post down the page, came out of consideration of Paul O'Neill's recent charges. Some good introspection, I think.)
But about that quote again ... considering the parsing that Dean and Clark statements are currently getting, it is amazing to me that our liberal media isn't hammering on "what's the difference."
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| 14 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 15:09
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That's because of their strong conservative bias, Mr. P. One simply can't expect the same level of criticism against Bush as one can expect against Clark, Dean, Gore, or the Clintons--they don't have it in them.
pd
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| 15 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 15:41
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Ok, what's the difference? We have not found them. Don't tell me you guys all think we should put Saddam back in power so he could try to obtain weapons because we have not found them.
JKP - how come you are not disecting the contect of 'the phrase'.
So, what's the difference? Whether he actually had them [we still don't know - GWB "YET", "YET"].
Or he was still trying to get them to wage war on the US anyway he could [Saddam's own words - another thread].
When someone [Diane Sawyer] tries to beat a dead horse, looks like you can stop them with, 'What's the difference?'. Love it. Why, stopped her dead horse line of questions and pi$$es of the left.
Smart answer 'politically', no.
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| 16 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 15:45
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The difference is between going in there for the reason stated or no. Stating (essentially) there was no difference is saying "Who cares--we got what we want." And when you say that, one has to question what, exactly, do "we" want.
pd
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| 17 | Seattle Zen Donor
ID: 55343019 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 15:46
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What is the point of reading post 15, or any recent post by Steve lately? Since it has been years since he has contributed anything to these boards worth reading, all I can advise is:
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.
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| 18 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 15:47
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Or, "What's the difference" whether he actually had them or was trying to get them. Saddam said he had them and he was 4,000 days past due on 1992 UN RES to disarm and ignored 16 more UN resolutions and "if left alone would become an imminent" threat if UN ever lifted sanctions like France was pushing for.
Yawn - guess press read this one for what it means.
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| 19 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 15:56
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Lots of countries are trying to get them. Should we invade now? The difference is the point of imminent threat, IMO.
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| 20 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 16:00
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What's the difference? As far as real justification for the war is concerned, none. But this dead horse that just doesn't seem to want to stay dead will continue to feed heartily off the exagerations that Bush and his administration happily led the nation to believe regarding the threat that any Iraqi WMDs actually posed. The fact that we were never able to find them looks to be about as close to karmic justice as this agnostic can acknowledge.
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| 21 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 16:05
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PD - come on. The reason stated is in the Congressional Joint resolution and the UN resolutions is much more than WMD. WMD was 'the' legal selling point in the UN. Why were we at the UN? To appease those on left who think US reports directly to UN. The only thing the left and media can obsess over now is 'not finding WMD' yet and ignore the rest of the resolution.
Second - Most of the people in this country are smart enough to see big picture that they would answer Diane Sawyer's questions with either "so what" or "what's the difference" too.
The House Joint Resolution Authorizing Use of Force Against Iraq for those who contintue to rewite history - We only went to war because of WMD.
“Iraq agreed among other things ....... to end its support for international terrorism”;
“Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population [those 300,000 in graves] thereby threatening international peace and security in the region”
“Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations [Hammas], including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens”;
“Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations”; [that’s what Congress passed, why do you object to the tie to 9/11, possibility of passing weapons to terrorists – just glad you or Howard Dean were not in charge after 9/11]
“……. that Iraq’s repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and ‘constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region,’ and that Congress, ‘supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688”; [US Resolution says his repression was a reason to go – so why do you say we switched reasons when it was ALWAYS there - ? hear only what you want to hear]
“Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime”;
=======
Get's funny after a while. Dem's need a sense of humor and to come up with something new. The majority [60+% approval] of americans are smart enough to SEE the BIG picture about Iraq. Press will only go out a limb so far to help you guys. You guys need A PLAN to do something that sounds positive without the negative spin all the time. After a while it is just ignored for what it is. You guys have cried wolf to many times. You need something new.
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| 22 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 16:15
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Ok, what's the difference? We have not found them. Don't tell me you guys all think we should put Saddam back in power so he could try to obtain weapons because we have not found them.
hmmm....i imagine Japan never attacking Pearl Harbor, and the U.S. never entering World War II. Germany rules Europe, and the German economy thrives. Someone asks Hitler if he has proof that the Jews caused the economic downturn in the first place.
Hitler says "what's the difference, the economy is better now..."
and Steve - it's only been a few months since that statement by Bush. How long did Republicans bash Clinton about a semen-stained dress and beat that dead horse? i mean, come on, it's just a dress steve. did it have anything to do with anything? What's the difference?
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| 23 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 16:19
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Ha. Steve, you give the UN resolutions as the reason, then disparage that as a real reason (Ask yourself if we would have gone into Iraq if the UN had said "no." If so, then it's not a reason). You also cite the Congressional Resolution as well, which was based, to no small degree, on the publicity coming out of the White House about WMD. It's a chicken and egg when you cite that.
Did the White House go to Congress to "appease the Left" as well?
This all goes to the heart of the argument: The Bush Administration went to Iraq for reasons it largely invented based upon incomplete or missing information that it filled with its own bias.
So long as this Administration continues to hold onto the wrong reasons for going into Iraq, it's going to look foolish as those reasons are exposed for being, at best, incomplete.
And despite your insistence that it's only the "Left" concerned with this, a great many people, of both parties, feel that the Administration needs to be held to their own standards in order to be able to be given credit for what has come about as a result of us following them.
pd
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| 24 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 17:40
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PD's last graf is exactly why I posted Andrew Sullivan's thoughts.
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| 25 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 17:43
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It appears these days that everyone that does not agree with Steve is easily written off as a pinko, commie wacko. It must be such a simple world view. Scary and sad, but simple.
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| 26 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 17:47
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Thank you SZ #17. A compliment coming from you.
tree #22 - should have quit at Pearl Harbor. But no, I had to see where your were going. Wow. WTF? How did the semen stained dress get into this? Bush was not bashed because there was nothing to bash. Press will only help you to a point. The difference. You were talking about republicans bashing Clinton. Let the dems bash Bush [they are - go to moveon.org - oh you do]. And their main sponsor, George Soros was on CNN yesterday. Another show today bashing Bush all he wanted. I even watched the commercial on FOX. I love laughing at democrats. It was funny. Says more than I could say about them. So, what's your problem?
PD #23 - My argument makes as much sense as the left's spin about not finding WMD's. Can't find them, that means they never existed. That means [to the left] Clinton, Blair and Bush were making up ALL the intel for 12 years. The fact is we went in for many reasons. The WMD, intel from previous administrations, inspectors and other governments. If the WMD's are not there, intel failed for years under two administrations. Surprising. No and Yes. And it could have all been avoided if Saddam complied with resolutions.
The UN resolutions had many reasons. I disparaged US going back to UN for no reason for a resolution we never got and did not need [to help Tony Blair if I recall correctly]. Facts were in all the previous UN resolutions and Congressional Joint Resolution.
PD #23 The Bush Administration went to Iraq for reasons it largely invented based upon incomplete or missing information that it filled with its own bias. Nice theory. No facts. Ignoring 12 years of history. Ignoring Clinton administration. Whose chicken and egg?
Pi$$ed - blame Saddam. If I saw some of the same anger coming out of the democrats about Saddam's actions for the last 12 years as I see the anger towards the Bush administration, it would be worth having a discussion on facts. But no. If all the facts do not matter to the left, why should I be concerned with the only facts that the left cares about. Just f%^&'ing amazing.
Like Bush said, "what's the difference" when discussing this with people who ignore the facts and the big picture.
======= Let's look at some of the other facts that some on the left like to ignore.
Clinton believes Iraq had weapons of mass destruction: Portugal PM, 09 JAN 2004, I know he committed perjury, so you may not believe him, but FWIW.
Former US president Bill Clinton said in October during a visit to Portugal that he was convinced Iraq had weapons of mass destruction up until the fall of Saddam Hussein.
"When Clinton was here recently he told me he was absolutely convinced, given his years in the White House and the access to privileged information which he had, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction until the end of the Saddam regime.
========== Gephardt may be part of the DLC [rep wing of dem party], so this may be more republican spin. :):) Gephardt interview, 03NOV03.
Rep. Richard A Gephardt : I supported the resolution because I gained information from the CIA and other former Clinton security officials that Iraq either had weapons or components of weapons of mass destruction. I have been severely critical of President Bush's inability or unwillingness to get more international UN help in Iraq. Getting that help is the only way we can succeed.
Or this Gephard, Face the Nation
Rep. Richard Gephardt: "I don't. I asked very direct questions of the top people in the C.I.A., and people who had served in the Clinton administration. They said they believed that Saddam Hussein either had weapons or had the components of weapons or ability to quickly make weapons of mass destruction. What we're worried about is an A bomb in a Ryder truck in New York and Washington and St. Louis. It cannot happen. We have to prevent it from happening. And it was on that basis that I voted to do this."
No doubt the anti-war Bush Left will now accuse Gephardt of "lying" for "suggesting" that we face an "imminent" threat of a nuclear terrorist attack. No, he didn't actually say that, but that's what he's implying, right? Right?*
*I goes without saying, of course, that they will never forgive him for having the gall to suggest that the war in Iraq has anything whatsoever to do with the War on Terror. ===============
Some more left Bush lied
========== Or Colin Powell's speech to UN
I asked for this session today for two purposes. First, to support the core assessments made by Dr. Blix and Dr. ElBaradei. As Dr. Blix reported to this Council on January 27, "Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it." . . .
My colleagues, Operative Paragraph 4 of UN Resolution 1441, which we lingered over so long last fall, clearly states that false statements and omissions in the declaration and a failure by Iraq at any time to comply with and cooperate fully in the implementation of this resolution shall constitute -- the facts speak for themselves -- shall constitute a further material breach of its obligation.
We wrote it this way to give Iraq an early test, to give Iraq an early test. Would they give an honest declaration and would they, early on, indicate a willingness to cooperate with the inspectors? It was designed to be an early test. They failed that test.
By this standard, the standard of this Operative Paragraph, I believe that Iraq is now in further material breach of its obligations. I believe this conclusion is irrefutable and undeniable.
Iraq has now placed itself in danger of the serious consequences called for in UN Resolution 1441.
Iraq was required by the U.N. resolutions in force to prove its innocence, something that it did not do. This, in my opinion, is irrelevant. The UN is a body of no moral or -- really -- legal standing in such matters. But if you're going to play that game, then it's important to recognize that the question isn't whether we find WMD. It was whether Saddam produced adequate evidence that they were destroyed. As Steyn notes:
The moment [Blair] prevailed upon Bush to go the extra mile with the UN, it was inevitable that there would be a fair amount of what I believe the British call "total bollocks". That is, by definition, the official language of multilateralism, and one reason why I have little time for it. For 18 months, my position on Iraq was consistent: I was in favour of whacking Saddam because the price of leaving him non-whacked was too high for America's broader interests. But once you get into auditioning justifications in front of a panel comprising France, China and Guinea, you're in for quite a tap dance. In the end, Britain officially went to war on a technicality, and given that that technicality - Saddam's technical non-compliance with Resolution 1441 - still holds, the WMD song and dance is irrelevant, both de facto and de jure. And as politics, two months after victory, it's pathetically immature.
============
DIANE SAWYER: But stated as a hard fact, that there were weapons of mass destruction as opposed to the possibility that he could move to acquire those weapons still ?
PRESIDENT BUSH: So what's the difference? "
And the point is? What's the difference?.
=========== And in a few days, some lefty will again post "So a U.S. President directly lied to the American public? I've never heard of such a thing..:)" Me neither, at least not since Clinton. :):)
And I will respond, "another nut from the left posting more lies".
============ NOTE: Still getting e-mails from the Dean camp thanking me for my support. Guess that's how the Dean campaign keeps the number of 'internet supporters' they put out high. Count those that send an e-mail NOT SUPPORTING Dean. I guess my e-mail was so nice they thought I might actually be a supporter. I have to admit, they are organized, I'm getting more e-mails from Dean than I do from the RNC and Bush campaign and I'm giving them a percent of my tax cut after the dems gave me the idea when they were complaining about it.
Subject: The Underdogs Date: 1/13/2004 2:34:40 AM Central Standard Time From: info@deanforamerica.com Reply To: To: SteveH@_________
Dear Steven,
[form letter]
You gotta believe.
Joe Trippi campaign manager Dean for America
P.S. Please forward this email to your friends, and ask them to join you in writing letters.
P.P.S. Help support the thousands of Americans who have traveled to Iowa this week to get out the vote for Dean:
========= Subject: Welcome Date: 1/13/2004 1:27:01 AM Central Standard Time From: info@deanforamerica.com Reply To: To: SteveH@______
Dear Steven,
Welcome to the Dean campaign.
As a Dean supporter, you'll receive information from your state about local opportunities to get involved, as well as messages from the national campaign headquarters in Burlington, VT.
Thank you for taking part in the political process. You have joined over half a million Americans in taking this first step. We welcome you to the campaign.
Best, Kelly Nuxoll and Mathew Gross Dean for America Webteam
==== Enough fun. Back to Dean for America or moveon dot org. They are really angry. More fun.
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| 27 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 17:58
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Steve, the blinders you use over your eyes are also, apparently, cutting off the flow of oxygen to your brain.
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| 28 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 18:09
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bili - not everyone. Just the pinko, commie wacko's that call the President a liar. :):) Sorry, I look at ALL the facts. You ignore the ones you don't like. At worst, I look at the facts with the same bias as the "pinko, commie wacko's" do. Was INTEL wrong, starting to look like it. Does it needs investigated? It is. Does intel need corrected after what had been done to it in recent years? Being done. Did Bush lie. F^&*k NO. Sorry, I think it's funny. You guys will recover in time though, so don't worry, try and be happy every once in a while. It's saddening seeing so many unhappy democrats.
This says it all.
Best of the Web
"There's much more in Mr. Suskind's book," Krugman raves. "All of it will dismay those who still want to believe that our leaders are wise and good." But the Associated Press notes that O'Neill doesn't share Krugman's enthusiasm:
Asked if he plans to vote for Bush in November's presidential election, O'Neill said he "probably" would. "I don't see anyone who is better prepared or more capable," he told NBC.
This underscores why the Democrats are in such deep trouble. So effectively have they convinced themselves of an absurdly overwrought case against President Bush that they've forgotten you can't beat an incumbent without a plausible challenger--and thus they seem likely to end up with Howard Dean, or maybe Wesley Clark. But we'd better stop there; we don't want to ruin the story by telling you how it ends.
==== >>> Come on. Forget where the dems are today and try and get it together. We need a viable two party system. Really.
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| 29 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 18:23
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Now you are starting to get insulting. A democrat?!? ME? I think you are confusing me with someone who thinks the system ain't broke. ;)
I am not sure what "facts" you think I am ignoring.
That Hillary is more hawkish than Dick Cheney pretty much says it all about our appetite for empire. It's just a matter of what excuses work at this instant in time.
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| 30 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 18:49
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Steve, The Left (of which I'm not a part, but I'll stand in for them here) have not said the WMD never existed (you're The Source--maybe you can find an outpouring of Leftist stating that WMD never existed). The Left (and Middle, and some on the Right) is pointing out that the stated reasons for the war in Iraq are not panning out. Not at all. Of 400 vials of chemical weapons, we haven't found one.
Now, it might seem like nitpicking to point that out despite the benefits of having conquered Iraq, but it doesn't make the argument any less valid given the cost we've been asked to pay. If not, we require more substance to the promises from car salesman than we do of our President.
Is this a lie? I don't know--it certainly approaches a lie. But even if it doesn't, the Administration deserves to be called upon to answer why it's reasons for the war have so thoroughly been absent now that they have the ability to back up their claims. I completely grant that we were using the best available intelligence at the time, but now that our intelligence includes actually being inside Iraq, what's the reason now?
pd
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| 31 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118 Tue, Jan 13, 2004, 18:49
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Did Bush lie. F^&*k NO. Sorry, I think it's funny.
Oh good. More from the land where 'immediate' means 'potential' and clear and present means 'possibly one day' and 'they are a threat' means 'they could become a threat' and where clear definitive statements made in the present tense are to be understood in the future tense.
Not hard to see what I think is funny, Steve.
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| 32 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Thu, Jan 15, 2004, 07:33
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Speaking on behalf of the right [which I am not a part of] in defense of the President [who I do strongly support] against accusations from the 'Dean'ocrat wing of the democratic party [which you, PD are not a part of]. And it appears to have spread to the 'Clark'ocrat wing of the democrat party:
#30 - I do not deny we have not found them. I do deny that was only reason we went in. We went in because Saddam refused to prove he did not have them and President Bush said we were not going to wait until Saddam became an imminent threat after 9/11. The world was going to force Saddam to finally abide by all the UN resolutions or there would be CONSEQUENCES [as approved by UN 1441 and approved by H.J. Res 114]. Both of which also talked about his Human Rights Violations.
But even in #30, you stated again like IT WAS THE ONLY REASON [PD QUOTE: the stated reasons for the war in Iraq are not panning out]. NO: one of the major reasons stated of all that I keep posting but some seem to ignore has not panned out yet.
I fail to see what you [in defense of the left] are claiming other than we [the world] need to investigate the Iraqi intel used over the last 10 years [two US administrations].
Is it a lie? NO WAY. Unless there was a BIG conspiracy that included Clinton, Gephardt, Blair, UN, etc. Was info on WMD wrong for the last 10-12 years. Sure looking like it might have been, as I said in #26. Not even sure you can say 'intel' was wrong. Intel is never RIGHT or WRONG. Did it come to wrong conclusions in the last two administrations? Again, sure looking like it might have been.
Was INTEL wrong and a lie over the holidays? Nothing happened. Must have been a lie if we use some on the left's rationale [or to say Is this a lie? I don't know--it certainly approaches a lie.
The left continues to ignore who is responsible. Saddam for not complying. Like I said, if the left would at least show some anger towards Saddam [not like Dean's, it's good he's gone], they might be taken serious, but to listen to those running for President [and the left supporters], you'd think Saddam was the good guy and Bush and Blair were the bad guys. The left has blinded themselves to the big picture by zeroing in on one item. [yes a VERY big item - and you agree that as late as OCT 2003 Clinton was still saying he was convinced Saddam had WMD until he fell - Gephardt was convinced by former Clinton officials before he voted]. It's fine to question the intel, but to zero in and accuse the president of lying just to go to war for the fun of it will not fly with the majority of voting America [IMHO].
So, "what's the difference". Or better yet, 'what's the BIG DEAL with Bush administration doing what it did based on years of intel that is still supported by senior democrats from previous administration [the intel - no telling where they stand on actually enforcing UN RES te way some waffle] other than it's a republican' administration?
MY QUOTE in #26: If the WMD's are not there, intel failed for years under two administrations. Surprising. No and Yes. And it could have all been avoided if Saddam complied with resolutions. OK.
And I'm sure Congress will ensure there is an investigation to look at the intel over the last two administrations. And they should. We need to know what Clinton was bombing in Iraq in 1998 just as much as we need to know what intel Bush was using.
Maybe the whole world was wrong [and UN for voting 15-0 on UN RES 1441]. Or maybe, just maybe, SADDAM is responsible. We ignore who was the cause [for 12 years].
You can argue it all you want and get some people to listen or agree, but if this is what the dems think they are going to run on, mistake IMHO. Do not like polls, but in this case, dems would be smart to take a look. As much as they keep screaming, support for Iraq still goes up. Why? Majority of Americans must see the big picture. In the big picture of war on terror, removing Saddam was a good thing, even if he misled the world into believing he still had WMD [and I think he probably still did, we just may not find them for years if ever].
===========
Why is Dean dropping in the polls? Voters finally starting to listen to what he's been saying. Left wing media trying to 'save' democrat party from him? Or is it just a 'blip'? I hope the voters on the left are waking up. Now if they start listening to what Clark has been saying ........... maybe he will drop too. Or when media is done with Dean, they will start on Clark's conspiracy theories. That would leave Kerry or Edwards or Gephardt. Could live with that even though there is just something about Kerry. ??
========= Is the media going after Dean? Lot of speculation in this story IMHO. This is a hack job [but Dean refused to discuss it with ABC for six week, so they just reported speculation they had available - and comments from the wife]
ABC NEWS. Dean's Trooper: What Did He Know About Abuse Allegations; When Did He Know It? - what a headline!!!!!!!!!!
DRUDGE REPORT: Dean's campaign managers threatened to kick ABC-TV off the Dean Campaign plane if ABCNEWS ran the affidavit story on tonight's WORLD NEWS, insiders tell DRUDGE... Dean Manager Joe Trippi said: "Im gonna come after you."
Is Clark next?
As I flip channels, is it just me or does John Kerry seem to be the inside the belt-way media choice?
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| 33 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 14826271 Thu, Jan 15, 2004, 07:58
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That may be the worst story I've ever seen. ABC should be ashamed.
I guess Bush can now say something like:
"The most interesting theory I've heard, not that I necessarily believe it, mind you, is that not did Gov. Dean know his favorite trooper was a wife-beating pig, but, he also joined in the beating and kept video-tapes of them at home for private amusement. If only Gov. Dean would be more forthcoming with ABC news, we could find out the truth."
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| 34 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Thu, Jan 15, 2004, 08:09
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Might have something there MBJ.
Another theory:
And where is Howard Dean's wife? :):) [kidding]
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| 35 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Thu, Jan 15, 2004, 09:24
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Good post, steve (#32). I haven't much to add, except that it's really a matter of emphasis. For Americans, Bush emphasized the WMD as the primary reason (with a secondary reason being al-Qaeda). The fact that Saddam was in violation of UN agreements was old news--Americans weren't going to support an Iraqi war for that (indeed, whenever Clinton attacked Saddam he was severely criticized for trying to take political heat off himself).
As for the ABC story, MBJ nails it. What a dreadful story.
pd
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| 36 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Thu, Jan 15, 2004, 09:59
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PD - I want to be perfectly clear. I want our inteligence done right. Done better. Our survival could depend on it. But you would have to show me some pretty concrete PROOF before I believe GWB lied to go to war for no good reason. If intel was 'spiced', it had been for a while and probably not intentionally.
I've read theories that analysts may have built on each preceding analysts analysis if Iraqi intel and with no 'proof' to dispute it and with Saddam's actions, you continue down the same road. Saddam did nothing to make you think your analysis may be going in the wrong direction. And with almost no on the ground intel [using bad guys, etc], you work with what you have. Like Sludge's 'random walk' in Global Warming Thread. Our brains are wired to look for patterns. This is a very important survival tool, but it can also get us in trouble. Quite often, we see patterns where none really exist. - you might be able to say the same thing about looking at intelligence. You don't know what you don't know, but we did know how Saddam was acting. Like he still had WMD. After 9/11, safe but sorry, but I'd rather have good intel. I don't fault Clinton or Bush if intel was analyzed wrong, but if it was we do need to know why.
======
ON DEAN and WHAT DID HE KNOW.
From Andrew Sullivan:
SLIMING DEAN: What a vile little smear story from ABC News. I knew this campaign was getting tough, but this kind of irrelevant piece of guilt by association is truly beneath contempt.
From Mickey Kaus [kausfiles]
Take that bus and shove it! I can't quite believe ABC ran with that Dean "affidavit" story (as Drudge tactfully calls it). There's no evidence presented that Dean knew of the actions of the former employee involved, certainly not before he filed his affidavit. Nor is it even really clear exactly what those actions were. Read it yourself. ABC (Mark Halperin, you too) should be ashamed. The network doesn't just report the story--it hypes the story (in the attempt to make it a story). If I were Dean campaign manager Joe Trippi, I'd have tried to kick ABC off the plane too. ... Hypocrisy Watch: And if Democrats had tried this sort of last-minute smear on, say Arnold Schwarzenegger, you can bet Republicans like Lucianne Goldberg would have immediately denounced it. Yet when the late hit is on Howard Dean, Lucianne Goldberg ... well, actually her site immediately denounced it. ("ABC falls for ... lame hit job.")
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| 37 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 14826271 Thu, Jan 15, 2004, 21:04
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This is weird.
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands — A recycling company found uranium oxide -- a radioactive material also known as yellowcake (search) -- in a shipment of scrap steel it believes originally came from Iraq (search), the company said Thursday
[snip]Nuclear experts say that although not highly radioactive, uranium oxide can be processed into enriched uranium (search) usable in a nuclear weapon -- but highly advanced technology is needed.
[snip]Environment ministry spokesman Wim van der Weegen said scrap metal companies in the Rotterdam port, which is Europe's largest, report around 200 findings of radioactive material per year, often from old hospital equipment or normal industrial uses.
But the finding of an estimated two pounds of uranium oxide is odd, Van der Weegen said.
Experts said that around 2 pounds of yellowcake, the amount found, would not be useful for either a bomb or fuel.
Dr. Alan Ketering, a researcher at the nuclear research plant at the University of Missouri-Columbia, said yellowcake contains less than 1 percent of U-235 used in nuclear weapons. He said it would need to be refined many times with sophisticated technology before it was dangerous -- and the amount found in Rotterdam would not be nearly enough.
"Anybody can dig it up and purify it to make the yellow stuff," he said. "It's the separation of U-235 that people are concerned about."
However, he said there was no obvious non-nuclear industrial use for yellowcake and it would be strange to find it in random scrap metal
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| 38 | Jazz Dreamers
ID: 33020151 Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 01:33
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One of the things I was worried about before the war was that if Iraq had WMDs, how could we stop them from ending up on the black market? There was a period of anarchy during and after the war (as with any war; we in the U.S. take for granted how easy our transition of power is, which is probably the single-most important aspect of our republican government). Anyhoo, with massive unemployment due to the fact that Iraq had developed little economic infrastructure during Saddam's reign and the general chaos that war entails, isn't it plausible that if there were Iraqi scientists who had information about WMD or access to actual WMD stockpiles, that some of them might be tempted to take them into their private possession and make them available on the black market?
This is all hypothetical, and I'm really not sure how plausible such a scenario might be. But I'm kinda surprised to have heard nobody else I've come across ever mention this possibility.
Consideration of such a scenario would entail a few things: (1) If Iraq was developing WMD but did not yet have stockpiles, it might have been crucial to make a pre-emptive attack so that Saddam could be removed before stockpiles could be made available on the black market. (2) If the U.S. knew very little about where Iraqi WMD and WMD programs were located, it might have been crucial to allow the inspectors more time to search in Iraq, as this would have given the U.S. more of an opportunity to confirm/refute the intelligence they had and presumably Saddam's WMD program could not progress very well while inspectors were there. (3) If this scenario is a real possibility, it might be crucial to begin an early examination into the correlation of our intelligence about Iraq before and after the war, as knowing the status of Iraq's WMD program before we invaded would be crucial to knowing if Iraqi WMD are still circulating somewhere in the world.
I personally believe that is pretty unlikely that there are WMD sitting in the basement of some abandoned building or in an unused hole like the one Saddam was found in. I think that if Iraq possessed WMD, that somebody probably knows where they are and probably has some plans to use them to their own benefit (plans which may or may not have already been implemented). It is a sobering thought that we invaded Iraq and toppled the regime decisively, but we may not be able to account for Iraqi WMD much better than before the war. I think it is sobering, because it makes me question how, and indeed whether, the "war on terror" can be won on our terms. Hmm...this reminds me of a topic that I wanted to start a thread on. :)
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| 39 | yankeeh8tr
ID: 220171421 Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 08:48
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Weird? Yes, mbj; but until I see something more than a Faux News report that r-e-a-c-h-e-s for a link ("it [the recycling company] believes [the steel] originally came from Iraq" - and where else did this shipment stop?) about an amount of yellowcake that is "not...useful for either a bomb or fuel...", I'll hold off on the smoking gun party I have planned.
Meanwhile, Jazz Dreamers broaches a very likely, important and here-to-fore unaddressed nuclear issue in his new thread. I know that they're our new buddies in the WoT and all, but don't the Pakistanis deserve a lot more of the searchlights glare? An Islamic society, bordering a nation that was/is a hotbed of terrorist camps (and likely, even if unwittingly, hosting a few), ruled by a military junta; a bad neighbor to the worlds other most succesful democracy (that we convieniently ignored when we needed access to Afghanistan - oops, sorry India!) and perhaps most importantly, who we supplied with the Cold War money, engineering, materials and know how to get a jump start on their very own nuclear arsenal - sounds like a country ripe for some "Bush Doctrine-ing".
BTW, thanks for the quality new thread, jazz - I look forward to the opinions posted there.
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| 40 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 09:53
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But I'm kinda surprised to have heard nobody else I've come across ever mention this possibility.
I believe that MITH and PD have both broached this possibility on this board and I have been very critical of the militaries efforts (or lack thereof) to secure known uranium storage sites in the days immediately following the fall of Baghdad. The media focused on the now-debunked "we occupied the Oil Ministries" building, rather than the rather more important and obvious fact that we weren't even occupying and securing other known objectives. The bottom line is that the collapse of Saddam was faster than virtually anyone predicted and it was probably hard to plan for, as a result. But nonetheless mistakes were made -- potentially serious mistakes that few outsiders are talking about.
Overall, however, I have become less concerned about the status of current WMD's as I have learned and read more about the scientific apparatus in pre-war Iraq. I am leaning more toward the view that if they had any WMD, they were old, poorly stored, and of marginal effective value, at best. The ineptness of Saddam's government seems like something we can bank on, in addition to the likelihood of straight-out deceit (scientists lying to him, military officers making false reports, etc.).
Of course, this doesn't help accountability one whit, but it does make me sleep better.
Lastly, the argument has always been about chemical and biological weapons -- the ones Clinton claims he left in Iraq at the end of his term. I'm not too scared of those, regardless. The most important point was pre-emption of any nuclear buildup.
And there, again, I think it is safe to say that they were much farther away than I had feared. I had feared a 1991 sort of scenario where our intelligence had mistakenly assumed that there was no nuclear threat, when they were potentially months away. Given the uncertainty of our intelligence and their previous biases and the known desire of Saddam to possess nukes, prudence dictated intervention. Of course, this time, our intelligence biases went the other way, it appears.
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| 41 | biliruben
ID: 5061711 Sat, Jan 24, 2004, 08:42
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Brad DeLong shows concern for our VP's mental health.
Is he off in a private little world all his own, surrounded by aides who don't dare tell him that he believes things that are not true? Is he mentally unbalanced? Or is he too old for the job?
The fact that he is saying things like this at this stage--where all they do is erode everyone's confidence in his judgment--is very worrisome.
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| 42 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Sat, Jan 24, 2004, 11:52
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The LA Times, Wash Post and Brad Delong all ignore the large picture in their coverage. It's like the mental patient worring about the doctor's mental health. :):). I'm worried about the left's mental health.
It all appears to be in the eye of the beholder.
Wash Post debates Dick Cheney [Delong uses LA Times article which is very similar to Wash Post article]
...... Milbank and Pincus's article is not a report on Cheney's observations; it is rather an attempt to refute them. Their method is to alternate between paragraphs that quote Cheney, and paragraphs that rebut his statements.
...... if the Post wants to argue on its opinion page that everything found in Iraq so far is "primitive," that is its prerogative. But to assert, as a matter of fact, that David Kay has made any such "finding" is ridiculous.
Milbank and Pincus are unable, of course, to challenge the specific points made by Cheney. So they omit Cheney's specifics, and then resort to deception:
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| 44 | Akbar Kufr
ID: 34521 Sat, Jan 24, 2004, 13:50
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Bush is a liar, Sharon's puppet, and that is all that needs to be said.
Allahu Akbar!
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| 45 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 14826271 Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 11:56
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OK, Zen, so you're putting stock into what David Kay says? In that same report he states that Iraq sent materials to Syria shortly before the war. Hmmmm...
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| 46 | Stuck in the Sixties
ID: 240262420 Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 19:21
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What's the consensus on O'Neill's statement that the very first Cabinet meeting discussed taking out Saddam?
Maybe it boils down to whether or not you believe the man. But his reputation is solid and I can see no reason for him to lie. So .... if Bush, Cheney and the guys were planning on the war well before 9/11, I wonder how an enabling resolution would have read?
Just food for thought
Don
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| 47 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 19:32
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In retrospect, the great thing about David Kay is that both hawks and doves have been able to quote him to make their points.
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| 48 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 14826271 Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 19:33
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he's sort of like Jesus and Thomas Jefferson that way
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| 49 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 19:40
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LOL. What an endorsement to have on your website, the inside of a book jacket, or wherever: "Sort of like Jesus."
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| 50 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 19:54
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What's the consensus on O'Neill's statement that the very first Cabinet meeting discussed taking out Saddam?
Maybe it boils down to whether or not you believe the man. But his reputation is solid and I can see no reason for him to lie.
Here's what this trustworthy person said after the media accounts about his book:
"People are trying to make a case that I said the president was planning war in Iraq early in the administration," O'Neill said.
"Actually, there was a continuation of work that had been going on in the Clinton administration with the notion that there needed to be regime change in Iraq." A change of behaviour or regime change was the U.S. policy even under Slippery Bill, so it is said. Discussion of contingency plans and ultimate options is different than a secret plan for war.
Toral
link
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| 51 | bibA Donor
ID: 261028117 Sun, Jan 25, 2004, 20:25
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I would like to think there is a difference between contingency planning or desire for regime change, and the outright invasion of a country.
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| 52 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 12:13
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biba 51 -- Indeed there is. That's why the administration's policy changed with respect to Iraq post 9/11. For the umpteenth billion time, for many Americans, 9/11 changed the "tolerable risk" equation. No longer could we sit by and let violent anti-American sentiment fester, and regardless of whether or not you believe the war was justified, I think it is clear that Saddam had a violent anti-American perspective.
As many of us worked through the logical implications of the Bush Doctrine, the risks of inaction in Iraq were seen to be too great. We might make a bigger mess, but we might make things better, too. But above all else, we could not stand by and continue to do nothing.
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| 53 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 13:12
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For the umpteenth billion time, for many Americans, 9/11 changed the "tolerable risk" equation. No longer could we sit by and let violent anti-American sentiment fester, and regardless of whether or not you believe the war was justified, I think it is clear that Saddam had a violent anti-American perspective.
i don't see us doing much in Saudi Arabia...among other places...sure is a lot of anti-american hatred there as well...
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| 55 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 13:55
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i don't see us doing much in Saudi Arabia
I, for one, have been ecstatic at the changes in our relationship with the Saudi's post-war. First, we ended our occupation -- the occupation that was required to contain Saddam and also fueled Al Qeada hatred. Secondly, we convinced them to start changing their funding issues for schools and so forth. All in all, as a result, we have gained flexibility and credibility while simultaneously improving our short and long-term security goals.
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| 56 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 14:02
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Madman 55 I've recently been called a neocon for saying as much, but I agree.
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| 57 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 15:11
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#52 "We could not stand by and continue to do nothing."
First of all, to insinuate that nothing was being done is completely false. UN weapons inspectors were in Iraq for the 1st time in years. Maybe you meant to say that we couldn't stand by and have the weapons inspectors do their jobs, because it would have revealed what we now know(at least according to David Kay)to be true - that Iraq did not have WMD, and was not a direct threat to the US. If by nothing you agree with Bush that the UN is "irrelevant", since it was the major topic on the table for months before the invasion, then maybe I don't understand your definition of the word.
If by nothing you think attempting to portray Chalabi as a persecuted Iraqi patriot ready to return to the motherland to lead the Iraqis(kind of like Khomeini in Iran after the Shah), then you, much like the administration, don't understand the passion of the Shia majority that now refuses to blindly accept the Bush Doctrine for governing the country.
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| 58 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 15:14
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Pancho
Tell me, do you think that President Bush at any point believed that there were no WMDs in Iraq?
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| 59 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 15:18
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Trying to crawl inside dubya's head is not for the agrophobic.
What he believes/d has little to nothing to do with US policy. At least I hope not.
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| 61 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 15:42
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#58 I don't think it mattered to Bush. This statement, prior to the war, spells it out very succinctly what the motivations for war were.
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| 62 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 15:47
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LOL. That's hilarious. (Talking about the link in #61, of course.) Thanx PV.
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| 63 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 15:48
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That's great JKP.
"Yeah, but Jesus could just point to you with one hand and cause you to choke and then hit you with his laser sword," Bush told Rumsfeld.
"I believe you're thinking of someone else," Cheney said.
"Well, even if you did kill Jesus, he'd just come back to life again and seek vengeance, like that time when he and his girlfriend were killed."
"Now I believe you're talking about the Brandon Lee film The Crow," Cheney stated.
"Sorry; I get always get my deities confused," Bush said. "What film was Jesus in?"
"Moron," Condi sighed. "Anyway, Jesus has got me helping sick children," she complained, "I hate sick people and I hate children and the two combined is just too much for me to stand!"
"And his eternal light cuts through the darkness that is the source of my unholy power," Rove stated, standing back in the shadows.
"Rover, you said the same think about that halogen lamp I bought," Bush answered, "but I can't just give Jesus away as a house warming gift."
"I like Jesus," Scott said, "I was feeling bad, but then he said I'm a unique person of great worth and that God loves me and looks out for me."
"And now he's lying to Scott," Cheney exclaimed, "That's too much; you need to fire Jesus."
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| 64 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 15:59
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First of all, to insinuate that nothing was being done is completely false. UN weapons inspectors were in Iraq for the 1st time in years.
What is the baseline for comparison? We have a few choices.
1) Continued Bush 2001 Iraq policy.
2) Bush's 2002 Military build-up and hot rhetoric, but no invasion.
3) Invasion.
4) Some combo of build-up and build-down.
Option (1) was, I believe, fairly characterized as "nothing", and it was that policy that I was criticizing. (note: this was also the policy of Bush I and Clinton I).
Option (2) is what you are choosing as a baseline, and since this discussion was with respect to pre and post 9/11 attitudes toward Iraq, I see little concrete evidence to suggest that option (2) was feasible.
It is important to note that more than $30 billion of the war's costs were hinged solely around this buildup, and a good fraction of the ongoing costs we are experiencing now would have to have been incurred to maintain it.
Further, I have seen persuasive reports that it was simply not feasible to maintain a large troop force buildup on Kuwait's borders indefinitely. Therefore, the buildup would have had to end at some point or another -- either ending with retraction or war.
If the ending was war, such an option would clearly have been more costly (aside from the curious and questionable deployment of the 4th Mechanized Infantry, which is still one of the biggest comic mistakes of the war, IMO). I presume, therefore, that in your mind's eye, we could have spent $30-$50 billion on a buildup, seen convincing evidence of Iraq's compliance, and then removed our forces.
The most reasonable position right now regarding Iraq's WMD is that he didn't have them, but he desperately wanted them. In this scenario, therefore, the US and UN withdraws, and a dangerous Saddam Hussein is given the greenlight to rebuild and given the monetary resources to do it (by reduced or eliminated sanctions).
Even the risk of such an outcome is not acceptable, post 9/11, and, I think, it is much worse than the "nothing" strategy of continued pre-9/11 Iraq relations.
Option (3) is what we did, and you disagree.
Option (4) is foolish and, IMO, the only option left if you do option (2) and also do not give him a greenlight to rebuild his WMD and economy. ----- MITH -- ;) Well, if that's what a neo-con is, then count me in, too.
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| 65 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 17:08
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#62..Sure, it's hilarious to you because you're in Canada, where the military is making the world safe for clubbing baby seals.
#64..It seems you're changing the rules. Options 1 and 2 relate to 2001 and 2002, at which time(except at the very end of 2002) there were no weapons inspectors in Iraq. Things had changed, and even though it didn't fit into an invasion schedule, Saddam was weakened by having all eyes of the world fixed on his regime. He wasn't able to fly under the international radar like he was in the '90s when the West was concentrating its aggression in the Balkans. 9/11 brought the terrorist-sponsoring states of the mid-East back into the forefront as rogue nations. Iraq was in our cross-hairs barely after the Afghani invasion, as you admit with your option 2-Military build-up and hot rhetoric, but no invasion(yet). Your suggestion that we base our invasion of Iraq on economic considerations(other than oil) is a new one. Since we've spent this money on the buildup, it's not gonna cost much more for an actual invasion, so let's just do it. We've spent how many years and how much money poised on the border of North and South Korea? It's like you're admitting the war wasn't really over WMD at all, but then most of us know that, just funny to finally see it in print, convoluted as it is.
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| 66 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 17:45
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It seems you're changing the rules. Options 1 and 2 relate to 2001 and 2002, at which time(except at the very end of 2002) there were no weapons inspectors in Iraq.
Can we agree that our credible military buildup was virtually the sole reason for renewed weapons inspections?
If that is the case, then you are left in a position where you want the US military to be held hostage whenever Saddam wants to play games with us.
We only spend (directly) $3b on our troops in SK, barely more than the $2b we spent containing Saddam. North Korea faces no direct threat from these forces, which aren't enough to launch a pre-emptive offensive strike, and therefore wouldn't be nearly enough to encourage Saddam to act. Our strategy in SK is basically to put enough Americans on the front line so that if NK wants to invade SK, they can roll right in, but the slaughter of 30,000 American soldier sacrificial lambs will piss the US so much that NK knows that they would thereafter be annihilated. And you want to do something like that in Iraq? ? ? ? Talk about a wonderful solution.
Not to mention the incredibly damaging long-term political footprint we'd leave in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. In point of fact, the tiny no-fly zone footprint was already big enough to act as a focal point for Al Qaeda hatred, and your "solution" is to do more of that? Seriously?
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| 67 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 17:52
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i do believe that history will prove the United States were an aggressor in a war that should not have taken place.
15 years earlier, perhaps, when Saddam committed genocide with the Kurds, but the recent abuses of his own people, no matter how awful, were not sufficient for us to go in guns a-blazing.
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| 68 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 14826271 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 18:01
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15 years earlier, perhaps, when Saddam committed genocide with the Kurds, but the recent abuses of his own people, no matter how awful, were not sufficient for us to go in guns a-blazing
I think that's an interesting point of discussion. The case in Iraq, of course, was that a combination of factors led to War. But, I wonder, if there is a point that the Left and Right would agree that a War is justified for purely humanitarian reasons. Was Clinton's interevntion in the Balkans or in Haiti justified? (Seems like the Left, largely, thought so, and Conservatives did not)
I don't think Iraq was a "humanitarian" War, at least not solely; but I do believe that the humanitarian good done there has already and will exponenitally continue to outweigh the pracital humanitarian effects of our various '90s interventions. (And I think we did a lot of good in the Balkans - I just think that the UN has mucked most of it up)
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| 69 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 18:17
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I think there is certainly a different standard for an intervention in an on-going conflict than there is for initiation of hostilities.
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| 70 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 14826271 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 18:22
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politically, sure there is. But, from a humanitarian perspective, I'm not sure that a victim of either Milosevic or Saddam's ethnic cleansing, for example, would really think that the "ongoing conflict" distinction was vitally important to the help they received from intervention.
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| 71 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 19:00
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Sadly, there are simply too many humanitarian catasrophies in the world for even the US to "attack" them all. We can be a leader, but as far as the nearly unilateral conquering of Iraq, this was just not the best bang for our humanitarian buck. We could have saved hundreds if not thousands from atrocities, famines, wars, epidemics with more immediate and obvious need in the developing world for every 1 poor victim of Saddam we saved in Iraq, based on dollars and soldiers and diplomatic bucks spent.
If you see the immediate and on-going extremination of an entire people, then you should be more justified in stepping in. Saddam was just another dictator using a heavy hand to keep his population in check. A dime a dozen.
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| 72 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 21:01
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#66 Yes, we can agree that our credible military buildup was virtually the sole reasons for renewed weapons inspections. That doesn't however leave us hostage to Saddam and whatever games he wanted to play. A couple of aircraft carriers in the gulf, capable of flattening wherever we wanted in Baghdad(which we did) would have shown Saddam that we weren't in the mood for game playing. The question is, were we really concerned with finding and eradicating Iraq's weapons programs, or was the main objective regime change? The facts support the latter theory. The next question would be, were our motives driven by security and humanitarian issues, or were they economic? Again, the facts support the latter. From my link in #61:
US oil multinationals have been banned from Iraqi oilfields for over a decade. While French, Russian and Chinese companies are lined up to profitably tap into Iraq's reserves, Bush administration officials incredulously claim that Iraq officials installed by the US will independently choose who produces the oil after the war.
Ralph Nader hit the nail on the head, but then he is not beholden to any corporate entities for campaign funds, so he can be brutally honest. Bush, the failed oil executive; Cheney, the former CEO of Halliburton(no comment on the 6 mil in kickbacks from Steve H, unabashed supporter of Halliburton yet); Condi Rice; former director of Chevron added to the neo-con leftovers who made such a mess of the area during the Reagan years: Rumsfeld, Perleman, Wolfowitz, might as well throw GBI in there as well, and what do you get?
Too early to tell, check back in 6 months.
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| 73 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 21:12
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Another thing. The US(like most military powers) is not above fabricating things as an excuse for a war. Vietnam's Gulf of Tonkin and Spanish-American War's "Remember the Maine" are generally agreed by historians as minor(or fabricated) incidents that led us to war. WMD may yet fall into that category. Still, if the primary reason for invading Iraq is economic(oil), it's a hell of a lot better reason than any we can say for Vietnam.
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| 74 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 23:12
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Watching SZ keep trying to come up with something against this administration is more fun than watching a democrat debate or a Howard Dean scream. But I am glad you are disgusted when your overwhelming evidence turns out to be more of the same old same old nothing against 'YOUR' president. I'd be digusted if I was roped in as often as you are too. And everyday SZ thinks I'm disgusting is a great day.
But thanks for the link SZ showing that Clinton and Bush both had the same faulty intel on Iraq. Don't you just hate it when they give you just enough to let you go out on a limb and say, we got him this time and then hear the buzz of the saw. You think they'd learn. If Bush was like the left, he'd have faked some WMD stock piles in Iraq by now. But no, he let's the truth come out. How disgusting. :):)
From Kay's NPR Interview
"I actually think the intelligence community owes the President [an explanation], rather than the President owing the American people. We have to remember that this view of Iraq was held during the Clinton administration and didn't change in the Bush administration. It is not a political "got you" issue; it is a serious issue of how you could come to a conclusion that is not matched by the future. It's not unusual — I remind you — as you well know, at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the intelligence estimate was that there were no nuclear weapons in Cuba. We learned only afterwards, and as former Secretary of Defense McNamara said in the recent movie, The Fog of War, two societies came within seconds of destroying each other based on a misperception of what reality was. Often estimates are different than reality. The important thing is when they differ to understand why. This is not a political issue. It's a fundamental issue of national security.
And at (11:50 of audio) "I must say, I actually think what we learned during the inspections made Iraq a more dangerous place potentially than in fact we thought it was even before the war."
And then there is tree saying in post #209 to defend Dean, "while i can't speak for the Iraqis, i can tell you that without a shadow of a doubt that the United States was better off with Saddam, regardless of what an evil man he was."
And I'm disgusting?
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| 75 | Tree
ID: 420362619 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 06:50
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Watching SZ keep trying to come up with something against this administration is more fun than watching a democrat debate or a Howard Dean scream.
Steve, it's no where near as entertaining as watching your defense of the administration. i mean really, there are plenty of Bush supporters who have seen troubling things from this administration, but well, i suppose unlike you, they don't wear earplugs and blindfolds.
it's amazing to me - MoronoCons like you point to stained dresses and screaming candidates as if they're comparable to needlessly dead soldiers and civilians
And then there is tree saying in post #209 to defend Dean, "while i can't speak for the Iraqis, i can tell you that without a shadow of a doubt that the United States was better off with Saddam, regardless of what an evil man he was."
And I'm disgusting?
i dunno. ask the families of the over 500 dead American soldiers if they were better off with Saddam in power.
Saddam's overthrow by our government has not changed one iota in a positive way Iraq's threat toward us. Saddam was not a danger to us, although this actuality falls under the "what's the difference?" rhetoric now being used by the administration.
in fact, the instability currently in iraq may actually make Iraq MORE dangerous to us then it was when Saddam was in power.
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| 76 | katietx
ID: 37002410 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 08:20
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i dunno. ask the families of the over 500 dead American soldiers if they were better off with Saddam in power.
Not to diminish in any way the death of American soldiers in this war, but conversly - why don't you ask the thousands and thousands of Iraqis whose loved ones were tortured and killed by Saddam if they were better off when he was in power.
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| 77 | sarge33rd
ID: 54072622 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 08:29
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ref Tree post 75:
The comparative Tree is moot. 500 dead US soldiers, while not insignificant by any means, is most certainly NOT a large casualty count for any sort of armed combat.
Did the administratuion use misleading (perhaps even blatantly false) statements to sway the Amwerican public? Absolutely. Does that fact change the fact that there NEEDED to be a removal of Saddam from power? Absolutely not. Was any other nation going to undertake the needed steps/action? No. Should we have independent investigations to determine how deliberate the misrepresentation was to the American peoples? Yes. Will we ever have that? No.
To continue to debate this, is truly absurd. Nothing will change. The events which have occured, cannot be undone. (Nor in the grand scheme of things should they be undone.) Every uniform wearing person serving, knows that death is an imminent possibility. It is an accepted condition of life. The WORST thing that service members endure, is the utterly confounding and generally ill informed arguing of the general public as it pertains to the use of that military.
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| 78 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 09:27
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As far as the security of the US specificly regarding Iraqi WMD is concerned, I believe we may actually be worse off. Even ardent Bush supporters here at Rotoguru concede that the WMDs were never a likely threat to the US at home (that's why they insist that immediate and imminant mean starkly different things). The contingincies resulting from tracing such attacks back to Saddam would have meant way too much lose for him, especially given that terrorists he may or may not have associated with seemed to be doing just fine without his WMDs. But now, much or all of that stuff is unaccounted for, potentailly in the hands of people who have far less concern for any discretion.
I'm not sure what, if anything could have been done to prevent this situation, except for just leaving Iraq alone to continue to support the fosterers of hate in the region, and for us to continue to do the same by keeping active military bases in Saudi Arabia which were necessary for as long as the Baaths remained in power in Iraq. So I still believe far more good than harm was done in the Iraq war, and that more good continues to be done (and likely some harm to go along with it, I'll concede). But I believe the real fruits of this endeavor will not be seen for years, and might never be seen if the American relationships with Iraq and other Middle Eastern nations aren't carefully nurtured in the interim.
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| 79 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 09:40
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br 71 - but as far as the nearly unilateral conquering of Iraq, this was just not the best bang for our humanitarian buck
I think it depends on your perspective. I buy into the neocon notion that the Islamic portions of the Middle East need revolution. If it turns out that Iraq helped cause a turn-around in the entire Islamic world, then I think this argument would turn out to be false. Granted, this is based upon hope and a belief system (all people want to be free and have rights) that are both questionable. But the argument is nonetheless possible.
Pv 72 -- The Russians and Chinese and French had access to Saddam's oilfields because they were buying him off, pacifying his regime, and giving him hope that he could continue to be a brutal and dangerous dictator without serious repercussions from the West. I suppose that you think Nader's point shows the moral vapidness of the United States and the superiority of the French, Russians and Chinese who opposed the war. I think that fact shows the reverse.
PV 73 -- my argument about economics wasn't about oil. Perhaps yours is. My argument about oil is that we spent tens of billions of dollars in the military buildup alone. We spent tens of billions of dollars in GWI. We spent billions of dollars in 1996. There's a pattern here ... 1990/1 Saddam threatens, we buildup. 1991-2, Saddam refuses to comply with our notions of the peace treaty, we spend billions on air and land bases in the middle east, billions on yearly air operations to help contain him. 1996 Saddam builds up along the Kuwaiti border, we spend billions deploying troops to counter his imminent threat. 2002 we demand to be let back into Iraq, he refuses, we spend tens of billions in a military buildup and finally get inspections to work.
You wish to continue that cycle. I don't. It's worth it to spend tens of billions on the military now to keep from having to do that sort of game playing into the future. Throw in 50 more billion in foreign aid to Iraq to help the people of that country, and you have at least spent a lot of money for a better world. You are proposing to spend a lot of money (albeit less) for the exact same world -- the same world that created 9/11.
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| 80 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 13:12
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I buy into the neocon notion that the Islamic portions of the Middle East need revolution. -Madman
I could buy into this as well, but the neocon absurdity that conquest spurs revolution is foolish nonsense, and I think any of the smart neocons know this. I think the neocons currently running the international show want stability, something they can control, not revolution and escalation of uncertainty.
Conquest from without breads contempt and hatred, not imitation of the conquerers. Revolution happens from within.
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| 81 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 13:18
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Revolution happens from within. ... and are made easier with foreign intervention weakening or defeating current dictators (as in our Revolution, for example).
Regardless, two of the greatest success stories of the 20th century were old-time conqueror stories ... Japan and Germany. All in all, attempting to generalize rules from the extremely tiny amount of data from history is rather silly and is an exercise that should be left to academics.
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| 82 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 13:33
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I wasn't looking at historical examples (though I find yours to be not remotely applicable), I was simply going by what little I know of human nature. Look within yourself and comtemplate your reaction when your country is conquered. If I were the in minority of those who drive revolutions, generally young, brash, fearless men, the only revolution I would ponder would be against the conquerers. To consider that this would be a good time to rise up against my currently deposed oppressor is absurd. And to think of all the nations of islam to be a monolith is foolish and dangerous.
All in all a pretty crazy plan, if Islamic revolution with the intent to insititute democracy is your goal.
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| 83 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 13:39
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br -- we are on totally different pages. There is no real point to revolting against the US as conquerors, since we won't be there for long. What we are doing in Iraq is wiping the playing field as clean as we can get it, and then letting those revolutionaries take over. Hopefully they won't lead to civil war, but some manner of revolution WILL occur.
As to the remainder of the Middle East, Bush isn't going to go in with guns blazing barring something extreme provoking us, so the relevance of your definition of conqueror becomes even more tenuous. I know many Democrats who have believed that we are going to invade a number of countries in succession, but that speaks more to their ignorance regarding the conservative perspective rather than any particular wisdom.
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| 84 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 13:49
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bili 80 I could buy into this as well, but the neocon absurdity that conquest spurs revolution is foolish nonsense, and I think any of the smart neocons know this. I think the neocons currently running the international show want stability, something they can control, not revolution and escalation of uncertainty.
I have to disagree with this, although I am not a proponent of the neocon agenda. The neocons are passionate democrats who believe that the Middle East must be pushed along the road to liberal democracy both for its own good and for the West's safety. They are not realists in the Kissinger mode who value stability above all. Richard Perle for example has been harassing foreign policy realists for decades, since he was principal aide to Sen. Scoop Jackson of the great state of Washington; then he was denonouncing detent and demanding that better relations with the Soviets be subordinated to specific human rights issues, in particular the freedom of Russian Jews to leave the Soviet Union. ("What's all this fuss about Russian jewelry?" asked Roseanne Rosannadanna on SNL.) (Kissinger thought that better relations were more important and claims that more Soviet Jews were got out through quiet diplomacy, whereas public demands against the Soviets caused them to harden their position.)
Toral
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| 85 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 13:50
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We are stretched so thin now that further conquest is, for the moment, out of the question, regardless of original intent.
The hope that we won't be there for long, I find questionable and frankly foolhearty and would undermine our goal greater democratization. If we walk out of Iraq in the near-term , the void will be filled with the those with the most fiery rhetoric. That will lead to more fundementalism, not a move towards more democratic ideals. We need to be there for the long haul to make sure the rebuilding process is complete and a true democratic process is in place and stable, regardless of political expediency. This occupation would have been much easier and less bloody if our pre-war diplomatic overtures handn't been so arrogant and off-putting.
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| 86 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 13:57
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I'll have to defer to Toral on issues of neocon philosophy, as I have read next to nothing on the subject. If it is revolution they truly want, however, either they are working with a different definition of revolution than I am aware of, or they need consult some socialogists.
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| 87 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 16:46
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Bush defends Iraq war in face of WMD findings
i like the part where he says, about Saddam, "We know he was a dangerous man in a dangerous part of the world," Bush said. "We know that he defied the United Nations year after year after year. And given the offense of September 11, we know we could not trust the good intentions of Saddam Hussein because he didn't have any."
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| 88 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 19:44
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From link in 84:
Taheri: I don't know. But I can tell you that President Jacques Chirac seems determined to make life as hard as he can for you. He cannot accept that the U.S. should have the power to go around changing regimes it does not like…
Perle: I don't agree with your analysis. Just before the war starts France will jump on our side. It has happened all the time, most recently in Afghanistan. The French behaved in exactly the same way last time when Saddam had invaded Kuwait. Let me tell you something more important: The French attitude makes war more likely. It gives Saddam false hope that things can be dragged on and on until the next American presidential election. Thus Saddam sees no reason why he should really show his weapons to the inspectors. That gives us the clear reason we need for attacking him. Thus, Chirac's policy will, in the final analysis, lead to Saddam's destruction.
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Taheri: Do you plan to impose a military occupation of Iraq?
Perle: No. Our first task is to topple the dictatorship and destroy its weapons. We shall then have the task of ensuring security and law and order for a brief period during which the new Iraqi government establishes itself and rebuilds its police and armed forces. The Iraqis will have the opportunity to have a new constitution, hold elections and produce a government of their own choosing. Once that government asks us to leave, we shall leave.
Taheri: So, all this talk about an American ruler for Iraq is out of placed? I have heard many names including Colin Powell and even former Senator George Mitchell...
Perle: Mitchell? You must be kidding. No, Iraq does not need an American ruler. We had to assume direct rule in Germany and Japan after the Second World War because there were no alternative forces in those countries at the time. The majority of the Germans had supported Hitler and the majority of the Japanese had endorsed the policies of their military rulers. In Iraq, however, the majority is against Saddam Hussein. There are Iraqis from all shades of opinion to come together and create a pluralist system. You can have two-dozen political parties covering the whole spectrum in Iraq. There are also many competent, experienced, well-educated and dedicated Iraqis to assume control of their country and rebuild it. They won't need an American ruler. Iraq is to be a model of democracy, not a model of American military rule.
Good interview, and I appreciate his candor, but things certainly aren't going quite how he invisioned. When doers start doin' theory usually goes out the window.
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| 89 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 20:04
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Like I said, Perle is blunt, tough, and candid. He guessed wrong about France -- so much the worse for France, IMO.
He is blunt about what he wants for Iraq, and that is not to be part of an American Empire. The neocons want to stay only along enough to restore order, set the stage for an independent and democratic society, and then get out.
Perhaps their view is too idealistic...but as for the evil imperialism in it...I don't see it.
Toral
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| 90 | j o s h
ID: 260222717 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 02:52
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Tree-87 And given the offense of September 11, we know we could not trust the good intentions of Saddam Hussein because he didn't have any." I almost fell out of my chair when I heard him say that. Well not really, but everyone in the room just looked at each other with their jaws sort of dropped.
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| 91 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 03:34
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Well not really, but everyone in the room just looked at each other with their jaws sort of dropped.
Why? Were you in a room full of simians? What's wrong with the President's statement? If he had all day to expand it, he could have said, " And given the offense of September 11, we knew we had to look more closely at what was happening in that part of the world, and the intentions of the various nations and groups, and the clearest finding was that we know we could not trust the good intentions of Saddam Hussein because he didn't have any. (italicized words added)
I don't think any ordinary patriotic American without a bone to pick against Bush would find anything bad in his statement. He speaks in ordinary language, first; and second, on TV, he may have left some logical steps out, because he has thought about it a lot, and the progression is clear in his mind, and he assumes that the citizenry has thot about the issue as much as he has. In the case of Liberals, that may have been a false assumption. The connect-the-dots exercise in logic that the Prez supposedly posed should not be beyond the capacity of the self-proclaimedly super-intelligent liberal elite, or The L*b*r*l media.
Toral
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| 92 | Tree
ID: 270262719 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 07:12
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Toral - now you're putting words into Bush's mouth, not taking them as said. i can do the same...i'll take everything he said and you said, and add to it as well...
If he had all day to expand it, he could have said, "And given the offense of September 11, we knew we had to look more closely at what was happening in that part of the world, and the intentions of the various nations and groups, and the clearest finding was that we know we could not trust the good intentions of Saddam Hussein because he didn't have any. We also have to do our damnedest to try subtlely mention that Saddam and Sept. 11 were linked, because it's our saving grace...
Toral - it was another attempt by this adminstration to link Saddam to 9/11 without coming out and actually saying it. most people are not going to try and draw any extra statement out of what was said. they're going to look at what was said, and run to their neighbor saying "Bush said Saddam was part of 9/11! good thing we caught him!!"
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| 93 | yankeeh8tr
ID: 510432716 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 07:48
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Toral how is it you completely ignore the fact that W and Co. had the toppling of Saddam as a priority from day one of his administration? The guy who promised to be a "uniter" and to keep the US out of "nation building" planned on finding an excuse for removing Saddam as soon as he could (or rather his handlers and left overs from Daddys White House) despite all his campaign rhetoric. I don't think any ordinary patriotic (and more importantly conscionable) American can't find anything wrong with the obious blame shifting and constant barrage of Saddam/September 11 linking.
It doesn't exist. Just like the WMD's.
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| 94 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 08:51
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from #91 I don't think any ordinary patriotic American...
It's obvious that your definition of ordinary patriotic American is absurd, given your recent obsession with the L*b*r*l media, which seems to make its way into every one of your recent posts. Ordinary patriotic Americans aren't radically agressive nationalists.
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| 95 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 09:43
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yankeeh8tr how is it you completely ignore the fact that W and Co. had the toppling of Saddam as a priority from day one of his administration?
Depends on your definition of "toppling", h8tr. Doing something about Saddam was on the agenda even during the Clinton administration; Bush put it near the top -- not with the pre 9/11 intention of invading Iraq, but with the definite intention of pressing Saddam to change his behaviour or face consequences. Madman said it better than I could -- after 9/11 the assessment of risk changed. Maybe I'm misrepresenting Madman, but he put it very nicely, better than I could. In my cruder take I would say that after 9/11 the whole Middle East went to the top of the agenda, and Bush decided to give it attention and push.
PV Ordinary patriotic Americans aren't radically agressive nationalists.
That's not the experience of Canadians who have worked/lived in the U.S. You ask any Canadian who has done so -- they will say that no matter how left wing the American is, if you criticize the country, if you criticize the system, if you say something that makes the U.S. sound worse than specific other countries (e.g., France), even the most left-wing American will suddenly start rhetorically flying the red-white-and-blue and start declaiming about how the United States is the greatest country in the whole wide world without exception.
Toral
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| 96 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 09:57
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Not sure I see what the flap is over what he said;
And given the offense of September 11, we know we could not trust the good intentions of Saddam Hussein because he didn't have any."
What are you guys saying this shows? The administration has already (rightfully) been raked over the coals for any statements that assume any Iraqi involvement in 9/11. After months of investing who knows how many man-hours and whatever other resources in their desperate search for proof of such involvement with almost nothing to show for it, they know that such accusations won't fly and therefore have left that connection out the Admnistration's doctrine. Today, the war is over and a majority of Americans supported the endeavor. Bush knows that he can only hurt himself and his own political standing by making untrue statements that he knows the media will not accept and that his political opponents will exploit.
The only thing that this does expose is Bush's poor communication skill. Toral has said in the past that he believes The President to be a fine orator, a position I never understood from someone like him.
Toral He speaks in ordinary language, first; and second, on TV, he may have left some logical steps out, because he has thought about it a lot, and the progression is clear in his mind, and he assumes that the citizenry has thot about the issue as much as he has.
While I don't side with those who claim that that Bush sentence is any evidence of ulterior motives or secret agendas to trick the public, I have to say that I find this statement of yours every bit as unlikely. Surely, President Bush is aware that a very large portion of Ameicans do believe that Iraq was involved in 9/11. If he does assume wht you say about the citizenry, then he is dead wrong. I personally would not expect such a misjudgement from a President in an election year. I don't believe for a moment that he simply and consciously felt that he could leave such significant parts out of a statement about such a hot issue because he assumes that the citizenry has thot about the issue as much as he has.
Plain and simple, he's not a very good speaker. He's vastly improved in the last 4 years (I wouldn't call him a crappy speaker anymore). Still, when he reads his speaches, he stumbles over his words and still hasn't figured out how to not make it obvious that he is reading cue cards. He clearly works much too hard to look comfortable. When he speaks unscripted, he often stutters mildly as he finds himself at a loss for words and then settles for less accurate or less aplicable terms that cloud or simplify what he is trying to say. I didn't watch this particular event so I'm not sure why he said what he said, but I doubt he put it that way (as opposed to your italicized version of what he likely meant) because he was being deliberately curt.
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| 97 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 10:29
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Bush's speaking: Toral has said in the past that he believes The President to be a fine orator, a position I never understood from someone like him.
George Bush has had four important speeches to make in his life: his acceptance speech, his first SOY, his speech after 9/11, and his SOY after 9/11. IMO, he hit four homeruns. Some commentators (conservative, as well as liberal) would say that some of those speeches were only doubles, not homeruns; but I never heard one commentator anywhere say that those speeches, in either content or delivery, were bad.
I don't watch that many regular Bush speeches, but I have to say that I don't find the ones I do watch as bad as Bush's critics, and I don't mean only liberals, but normal people, do. I don't take issue of any of your (MITH's) specific comments about his ordinary speeches, but...FDR, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, etc., stumbled over words, stuttered or paused or halted, etc., too.
I would like to ask the people who dump on Bush's speaking what they thought of President Clinton's speaking. This is not an attempt to drag Clinton into the discussion for partisan purposes....Do you remember Clinton as a good speaker?
Clinton a) his first national performance was as the keynote speaker at the Democratic National Convention, a speech that was so long and unfocused that the hall emptied and he got mock cheers when he said "In Conclusion..." so that he first came to national attention as a subject of Letterman jokes b) his SOYs were, in the opinion of even liberal commentators, hideously overlong, indifferently delivered, and boring; c) screwed up the most important speech of his life, his speech after testifying before the Starr Independent Counsel, an occassion where he should have said, "Well, it's over. I apologize, and let's get on with running the country" but he instead delivered a red-faced rant against his real and imaginary enemies, a speech that his supporters James Carville and Paul Begala specifically criticize in their recent book, and a speech that Hillary Clinton directly advised him not to give, with rumour having an angry Hillary saying to Bill, "Well, it's your own G-D----d speech, you got yourself into it, you get yourself further into it if you want to."
Yet I imagine that some people remember Clinton as a better speaker than Bush. Go figure.
But I have digressed.
President Bush is not a smooth or glib natural speaker, but he has proven himself a very fine orator, by performance.
As a conservative, I am happy to see Bush treated as a retard by liberals, because it makes it likely that in the presidential debates he will be considred an underdog, notwithstanding having given an unbroken series of superb important addresses as President. Sometimes The Liberal Media's bias has good results, through Providence.
Toral
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| 98 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 10:53
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Toral I should admit that I've really only become cognizant of politics recently enough to not be able to make much of a judgement of Clinton as a speaker. Through most of his Presidency, I was a cursory observer of politics at best. So, while my initial reaction is to say that Clinton was most certainly superior to President Bush in that regard, I admit that have little to base that on other than what is commonly expressed in the media.
I did read The Presidential Difference by Fred Greenstein a few years back and I'm pretty sure that he counted Clinton's public speaking skills as among his greatest assets in what was otherwise a fairly scathing review of his presidency. I'll check it tonight for some details on that topic.
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| 99 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 11:05
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Toral, I agree with your comments in #92. Ordinary patriotic Americans will defend their country to the teeth, be they left, right or center. In the aftermath of 9/11, when we knew who the perpetrators were, and where they were training, thus our action in Afghanistan could logically be termed defensive, since it was in response to an attack on our soil.
Those conditions did not apply concerning our offensive actions in Iraq. Consequently, the term ordinary patriotic American is hopelessly splintered, as left, right and center views differ accordingly.
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| 100 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 11:12
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Mith Prof. Greenstein is a real veteran observer. I would very much like to hear what he has to say.
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| 101 | Baldwin
ID: 560191911 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 11:57
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The key people completely overlook is that whatever Bush's natural gifts are at public speaking, he takes his speeches very very seriously indeed. Something his father did not do. His father just went thru the motions. This Bush really really cares and believes they are important.
Another point is that it is entirely possible to make your point without speaking perfect english. Witness the Mayor of Chicago.
Bush makes good points and means what he says. If he is lying...if he doesn't believe in what he is saying, he sure acts as if he does. If you are a leader of a country and Bush says in a speech, that he is coming for you, you had better start digging a hole.
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| 102 | j o s h
ID: 260222717 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 12:32
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91-I feel like such monkey for allowing my jaw to drop at Bush's (what I thought to be) gross understatement. I suppose it probably would behoove him to remember there's alot of dummies out there that don't/can't fill in the blanks. The liberal press didn't expand anything or take away from what he said. Not on teevee that i saw.
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| 103 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 12:35
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The liberal press didn't expand anything or take away from what he said. Not on teevee that i saw.
Excellent point, Josh. That's something that also occurred to me and that I forgot to note.
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| 104 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 12:42
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Did anyone suggest they did? I referred to you and your jaw-dropping fellow listeners in #90.
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| 105 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 12:46
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Well, you wrote; The connect-the-dots exercise in logic that the Prez supposedly posed should not be beyond the capacity of the self-proclaimedly super-intelligent liberal elite, or The L*b*r*l media.
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| 106 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 12:52
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Well, I should address j o s h to clear this up. I asked j o s h "What's wrong with the President's statement?"
j o s h Why did your jaw drop? What did you find jaw-dropping about the statement?
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| 107 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 13:05
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Not to be cross-examinatory, I'm guessing it's because you thot Bush was implying that Saddam was directly responsible for 9/11. I don't read it that way, as I tried to explain. And I can see why hearers might be puzzled, might have to think about the connection, but looking at the statement,
"We know he was a dangerous man in a dangerous part of the world," Bush said. "We know that he defied the United Nations year after year after year. And given the offense of September 11, we know we could not trust the good intentions of Saddam Hussein because he didn't have any." I just personally can't see why a whole roomful of people could drop their jaws at this, unless they were humongously predisposed against the President to begin with.
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| 109 | j o s h
ID: 260222717 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 13:29
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Bush was implying that Saddam was directly responsible for 9/11. NO! Although (now that you bring it up)i suppose that could be a debatable point. as i said in 102 "gross understatement". in our humble opinions.
ethnic cleanser invader evil dictator wannabe assasinator of U.S. president and the list goes on...
maybe i overstated the jaw dropping incident! maybe we just looked at one another and stopped chewing on the banana's for just one second and sort of agreed..........well yeah!
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| 110 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 14:26
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The reason people's jaws might have dropped was that those statements were given in response to this question: "Do you still expect to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?"
The Daily Show actually did a fine job of pointing this out last night. They played the clip, and after the question is asked, the president is visibly searching for a way to answer without having to answer. He hems and haws a little bit, stops to congratulate David Kay on the fine work he's done, hems and haws a bit more, and then says (paraphrase) "Look, Saddam was really bad."
You're right in that there's nothing bad at all about the straight text of that quote. And granted, that's pretty much all you get from reading that CNN story. But when you saw the words in the context of the interview, the president's avoidance was, well, jaw-dropping.
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| 111 | Toral Sustainer
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 14:36
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Ah, that's it. Evasion. Thanx, Mr Prez. I didn't know that from Tree's original link, and j o s h didn't make it clear to me. From the CNN story, I'm sitting around wondering, why would a roomful of people be listening to the President's Remarks After Meeting The President Of Mexico anyway.
As an answer to that question, I can definitely see it as surprise-causing.
Toral
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| 112 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 14:46
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Not so shocking spin from the Times:
But in public on Tuesday, Mr. Bush, while careful in his claims, made it clear that he had no regrets.
"There is just no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein was a grave and gathering threat to America and the world," Mr. Bush told reporters as he met with the Polish president, Aleksander Kwasniewski. "There is just no doubt in my mind. And I say that based upon intelligence that I saw prior to the decision to go into Iraq, and I say that based upon what I know today."
Yet Mr. Bush's own words on the subject have been a moving target. In the State of the Union address a week ago, he referred to "weapons of mass destruction-related program activities" that inspectors had found, drawing the wording from Dr. Kay's interim report last fall. He did not mention Dr. Kay's other conclusions: that those activities were largely in research and development, that most made little progress, and that they were intended to deceive Mr. Hussein into thinking that he was spending money fruitfully.
The statement in bold was not, to my knowledge, part of Dr. Kay's "other" conclusions. Slate It is significant that Kay wrote nothing about the Iraqi scientists' deception campaign—and issued no such call for radical reform of the U.S. intelligence community—in his report last October. The omissions are the ultimate indicators that the report's main goal was to please and protect his employer.
Of course, even Slate's spin is highly questionable, IMO. I think an alternative explanation is that Kay's first report reflects Kay's own bias that Iraq really *was* hiding things. Then, between reports, we discovered documents that indicated mass deception and Kay's perspective changed.
But the bottom line here is that either Fred Kaplan at Slate is a liar or the New York Times is a liar. Or one or the other is confused. My recollection from reading the first Kay report is that the Times is just plain wrong.
And these are people reading reports in English, freely available. I'm just glad that the American press isn't doing the WMD search.
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| 113 | j o s h
ID: 260222717 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 14:48
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Toral- in my original post 90. I did say "heard", not read....
sorry about the misunderstanding.
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| 114 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 14:49
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What is shocking about evasion? I guess I still don't get it. It's called politics ... softball politics as that. Instead of attacking Kay, he praised him, silently condoning Kay's judgment for what it is -- Kay's best guess.
Given the increasingly plausible story that we came to erroneous conclusions about Iraq's WMD in the mid 1990s, it is sad and odd for people to be expressing shock that the President is avoiding making conclusions here. It's called learning lessons, and it is generally considered a good thing.
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| 116 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 15:41
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No, I suppose there shouldn't be anything particularly *shocking* about a politician evading a question. It is always interesting to see it so transparently, though.
Bush could have dealt with the question without attacking Kay -- in fact I'm not sure why he would have ever considered attacking him anyway. But he could have addressed the issue of intelligence failure, said here's what we need to do to work on this problem, and then moved on with the (accurate) talking point that we are better off without Saddam. He could have at least taken a swipe in the general direction of the question; a bit of candor would have been nice to see. Instead he did a "Hey, look over there!"
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| 117 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 16:04
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in fact I'm not sure why he would have ever considered attacking him anyway No reason a President would ever attack an independent investigator to score political points that I can think of. It's certainly never happened in our lifetime.
He could have at least taken a swipe in the general direction of the question;
Well, I think he did. By praising Kay, he was implicitly endorsing Kay's point of view.
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| 118 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 16:06
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You guys give Bush's communication skills way too much beneift of the doubt.
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| 119 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 16:18
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Hahahaha. Possibly.
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| 120 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 17:01
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:)
The reason I question whether Bush would start attacking Kay now is that the administration has already gone on record as praising his work. Or maybe I'm misrememberifying that.
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| 121 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 17:14
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I don't recall whether or not they have praised Kay in the past. Probably, I think he deserved it ... but that didn't stop Clinton v. Starr or Clinton v. Fisk, etc.
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| 122 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 18:22
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Toral 100 Greenstein's take isn't exactly as I remembered it.Public Communication At his best, Clinton is an outstanding communicator. He is at the top of his form when he is on the defensive and in contexts that evoke his Southern Baptist heritage, such as his 1995 address in Oklahoma City. At worst, he is long-winded, unfocused, and "off message," which is to say that his rhetoric mirrored the rest of his leadership.
Clinton's rhetorical shortcomings were most evident early in his presidency, when he sometimes stepped on his own lines by making multiple statements in the same news cycle. He also was capable of discarding a prepared textr and ad libbing his way into political trouble. For example, in his September 1993 endorsement of New York's first African American mayor, David Dinkins, for reelection, Clinton offhandedly remarked that New Yorkers who voted against Dinkins might well be guilty of unconscious racism. The assertion was harmful to Dinkins, drawing fire even from some of his supporters.
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| 123 | steve houpt
ID: 32428300 Wed, Jan 28, 2004, 18:33
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Madman 108 - excellent find. Missed that. Only problem is it makes sense. It uses logical thought. Looks at the whole picture. But it does not blame Bush. I don't get it. :)
tree 75 - Read my post #32. I respond with facts and logical thought. Not like you. I only blindly defend Bush for entertainment purposes when the disgusting pinko, commie wackos [#25] on the left blinded by rage attack with half the facts for strictly political gain and with no regard for the well being of the American public.
How's Howard doing? Looks like the fringe of the party is moving back up. Finished second, way ahead of third place Clark/Edwards. A big victory I guess. I might have to sign back up for the Dean campaign because it looks like Clark campaign won't need my support much longer.
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| 124 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Thu, Jan 29, 2004, 07:18
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it appears that Hitler's Germany will be GW's next target...
Hitler's Chemical Weapons a Seeping Menace
When Bush discovers that Hitler was defeated nearly 60 years ago, he'll proclaim "Hitler's dead? What's the difference?"
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| 125 | j o s h
ID: 260222717 Thu, Jan 29, 2004, 08:39
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jowl drooping stuff ;-)
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| 127 | sarge33rd
ID: 220582912 Tue, Feb 03, 2004, 19:00
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Tree, since you've not donned the uniform (forgive me if I am incorrect there), you don't know the role. Service members accet that their career carries with it certain unalterable risks. They still chose to do the job. They know what lies ahead, and they accept it. You speak from the safety of home. Streets patrolled by uniformed law enforcement officials. An environment where you know and are known by...your neighbors. it simply is not the same environ our service personnel live and work in on a daily basis. Trust me, 528 dead, in a hostile environ over this time frame, is not an absurdly high casualty count. In fact, it is incredibly low. Your indignation only goes to show, just how unrealistic Americans have become, when it pertains to use of the military.
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| 128 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 14826271 Tue, Feb 03, 2004, 19:16
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Trust me, 528 dead, in a hostile environ over this time frame, is not an absurdly high casualty count.
Well, that's not the combat casualty count anyway. Combat casualties are un the mid-300s. We took a country and removed a tyrant and lost within 100 of the death count of a "satan stoning" at the Hadj.
How many murders were there in NYC last year? I bet fewer than our combat losses in the entire War.
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| 129 | Tree
ID: 5117220 Tue, Feb 03, 2004, 20:01
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it's 528 more dead than needed to be, and that's my point. a misguided president put their lives on the line.
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| 130 | bibA Donor
ID: 261028117 Tue, Feb 03, 2004, 22:53
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And what about the thousands of Iraqis who have also died? Oh yeah, they don't count.....just Arabs.....payback.....Saddam would have probably killed more.....collatoral damage.....sorry.....
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| 131 | Tree
ID: 5117220 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 06:47
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bibA - Iraq is not our country. we have no land claims anywhere near it. what about the millions in ethiopia and cambodia and everywhere else that innocent people died that the U.S. did not invade? you're a fool if you think this war was about dead Iraqis....
and i find it rather disgusting you think that Arabs don't count, because they do, as we're all on this planet earth together.
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| 132 | yankeeh8tr
ID: 2120317 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 08:20
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tree, I think bibA was trying to be sarcastic, and I have to back sarge on his post. While I agree with your assessment that the war could have (and should have IMO) easily been avoided, the casuality numbers are low. I know this is cold comfort to folks who have lost a loved one, and I am definitely not trying to excuse for Bush and Co., but I get a little tired of hearing complaints from reservists and Guardsmen (and/or their families) who b!tch about having to go on active duty; these folks have drawn pay and benefits for volunteering to serve - action in uniform is part of the job hazard. What did these folks think they were signing on for? The Salvation Army?
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| 133 | sarge33rd
ID: 220582912 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 08:26
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dont get me wrong Tree, 1 dead service member is 1 more than I care to see suffer that fate. However, being realistic, once you do the uniform and swear out the oath, such fate is definitively within the cards for you. If/when it happens, I empathize with the family, but it is the price freedom, world power and service in uniform carries. Some live, some dont. Just as some cops live, and some dont, some firefighters live and some dont. You can pretty much substitute virtually any occupational title you might choose. None are inherently risk free. Some however by their very nature, are of a higher degree of risk. Military service, could hardly be argued as low in risk.
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| 134 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 11:35
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tree, I think bibA was trying to be sarcastic...
i sorta presumed. but i wonder what biba was getting at with his dig...
Sarge/Yank - i think we're debating different points. i have no problem with the fact that once you put on a uniform, that's your job.
I have one brother who is a veteran of the Israeli army, and i love him to death, but his military service really screwed him up.
My younger brother is currently serving in Gaza, and i worry about him often, but it's something he's chosen to do, and i think this is something he's been training for most of his life - from the moment he could sit up in a chair on his own, he's been on a computer playing military strategy games, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him become an officer, and if he stays with it a long time, a high-ranking one. if it's what he wants to do, more power to him...
my point was more of the issue that when Bush says casual things like "What's the difference?" and "Bring it on," he should be called on such awful things by those who have to mourn our war dead.
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| 135 | bibA Donor
ID: 261028117 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 12:03
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The point I was hoping to make was that so many Americans seem to look at the situation as if it were solely an American situation. That the only important casualty figures are those suffered by U.S. troops. There is very little put out re: casualty rates suffered by Iraqis, either related to military actions, or by civilians (collatoral damage).
Of course, one cannot say how many Iraqis would have died if we had not invaded. However, deaths and horrible injuries suffered by probably thousands ARE as a result of our involvement. The adninistration seems to be trying very hard to avoid releasing any figures relating to Iraqi casualties.
Tree- I hope this clears up my previous post that you were not able to understand. My apologies for beating around the bush.
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| 136 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 13:22
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The point I was hoping to make was that so many Americans seem to look at the situation as if it were solely an American situation.
well, we're on the same page. i'd imagine the number of dead Iraqis in the nearly 12 months we've been in Iraq is easily 10 times the number of dead coalition soldiers. probably a lot more - i would imagine it could be counted in the 10s of thousands...
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| 137 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 13:43
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This is not collateral damage. The only thing I heard from the war supporters was that they were upset we didn't get Saddam and his sons, another case of faulty intelligence. Purposely bombing non-military residential areas should be cause for disgust for both supporters and opponents of the war.
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| 138 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 13:54
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SOP. When it comes to conquest, blowing up kiddies is expected and sometimes even necessary. Our president and our congress knew, or should have known, would happen when you give the green light to the Pentagon.
If you supported the war and yet didn't expect to be directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians, you are either naive or delusional.
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| 139 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 14:09
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bili, I don't think that incident is SOP, at least as far as Iraq goes. We've done a commendable job in pinpointing our targets and keeping the collateral damage to a relative minimum. The incident I link to though, was a purposeful bombing of a residential area, based on faulty intelligence and an obsessive desire to kill Saddam. There is a big difference, and that should be unacceptable.
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| 140 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 14:10
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If you supported the war and yet didn't expect to be directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians, you are either naive or delusional.
ok bili, that cinches it. if i can actually stomach any more liquor after a weekend in Vegas, i'll buy you a beer..or cider...or whatever...when i'm in seattle later this month...even if you're still wrong on the israel/palestinian issue.. ;o)
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| 141 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 14:21
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PV - If I'm fighting a war and want to win, I'm going to go after the leadership, innocents be damned. If you blow up Saddam, resistence will likely decrease, and this might save lives in the long-run. Faulty intelligence can be blamed after the fact, but it wouldn't change my decision to blow up the neighborhood at the time.
Tree, when are you hitting town?
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| 142 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 14:31
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This pattern of faulty intelligence is disturbing.
50 strikes on top Iraqi leaders failed to kill any of the intended targets, but instead killed dozens of civilians.
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| 143 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 14:38
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Tree, when are you hitting town?
it's called email. read it. i sent it. LOL..
limited time only. i'm landing at SeaTac around 2 p.m. on sunday, february 29...then catching the train eaaaaaaaaaarly the next morning to Vancouver, BC....
i'm back for an even more limited time the night of friday, March 5. the train gets in around 9:55 p.m., and i've got a 1 a.m. flight back to nyc that morning/night...
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| 144 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 14:48
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Nice! Taking the train.
My spam filter must be working overtime, or you put something like "Hi!" or "How are you!" in the header, and I deleted it as a matter of course.
I'll be happy to grab a beer with you down near the train station Friday night. Cross-country drunken' red-eyes are lots of fun, provided you stay hydrated. Crawling out of JFK all hung-over as the sun is rising is not a feeling I enjoy. Not that it has stopped me from experiencing it more than once. ;)
Sunday's not so good.
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| 145 | Myboyjack
ID: 108231015 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 14:52
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Get 'em some of that Salmon beer or whatever it was, bili. Good shi'te. ;)
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| 146 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 15:17
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Nice! Taking the train.
yea, the price was right, and it should be a beautiful ride...
I'll be happy to grab a beer with you down near the train station Friday night. Cross-country drunken' red-eyes are lots of fun, provided you stay hydrated. Crawling out of JFK all hung-over as the sun is rising is not a feeling I enjoy. Not that it has stopped me from experiencing it more than once. ;)
currently, i think the plan is for SZ to pick me up at the train station, and maybe we'll find a pub or something closer to the airport? definitely come on down! but as long as i catch my flight, i don't care where we drink. :o)
yea, i'll probably pass out well on the flight home - they've got this new thing called the AirTrain our here - i haven't ridden it yet, but it claims to get you from Jamaica Station (LIRR) to JFK in 8 to 15 minutes, depending on your terminal...and i live right near the Woodside LIRR stop, so it's the LIRR to Jamaica, then bang, AirTrain to JFK, and vice-versa...
not a beer drinker though - haven't been since high school - i really don't like the taste of it, and at some point decided that was reason enough to not drink it. however, i'm a big fan of cider, if they've got that out there....lol...
Sunday's not so good.
tis a shame - SZ and i will tie one on without you..
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| 147 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 15:22
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I'm defending the 3rd, and Sunday I don't think I will be that pleasant to spend time with. It's also leap day. You can only have your " I visited Seattle" anniversary every 4 years. ;)
If you haven't drank beer since highschool, you probably have never really drank beer. You at least have to try a taste of fresh, tasty, hoppy beer instead of the stale stuff made from rice that they call beer.
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| 148 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 15:29
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lol. no, i've tried beer since then. for whatever reason, it just doesn't sit well with my tastebuds...
and i have no clue what you mean by "defending" or how that relates to you being unpleasant. i'm not tracking well. it's like 95 degrees in my office..
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| 149 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 15:47
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Sorry. Defending my dissertation. That weekend, I will be preparing for the onslought as I try to finally slay this vicious beast.
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| 150 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Wed, Feb 04, 2004, 15:53
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ah yea. i've heard rumours that such a thing was nasty. it's not likely something i will ever know. i was a mediocre student, mostly because my teachers were idiots and really weren't very good at teaching. made me dislike education. did my four (ok, five) years, and as the song says, "Got my paper and now i'm free..."
although culinary school does have an appeal...
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| 151 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Tue, Mar 30, 2004, 17:38
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U.S. Weapons Hunt Shifts Focus to 'Intent' in Iraq
so we've gone from insisting they were there to cracking jokes about them not being there to seeing if there was an intent to make them...how excellent!
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| 153 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Sat, Apr 03, 2004, 10:57
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Damn, Tree, I was just about to post that. Baldwin, care to comment?
[It's not an attempt to bait you. I'm genuinely interested in your reaction to this concession by Powell]
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| 154 | Baldwin
ID: 2211132920 Sat, Apr 03, 2004, 11:06
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My impression has been that they've lost some confidence in the informant who revealed the existance of these mobile weapon labs. Never-the-less the labs were there. They represent a capacity if not a program. I don't think anyone has ever claimed to have recovered evidence they were ever used for a WMD production run but I think it is equally true no one can say they aren't perfectly suited for that purpose.
If Powell wants to deny 'metephysical certitude' that they were acquired for that purpose fine. If he is saying we no longer believe they were aquired for that purpose he certainly doesn't speak for me.
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| 155 | Tree
ID: 30357517 Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 17:56
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Coalition battling al-Sadr supporters in Najaf
fighting in seven cities. "About a dozen" u.s. soldiers killed in a large scale attack today. didn't bush declare the end to major combat last may?
i'm so glad he can joke about the false pretenses in which he led us into war as more and more young americans get killed on a daily basis.
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| 156 | Baldwin
ID: 20337320 Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 19:19
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You are still fighting the last war Tree.
This is Iran's attempt to install a government in Iraq. That's my take anyway.
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| 157 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Sat, Apr 17, 2004, 21:56
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Before you go betting your house that Saddam didn't just ship his WMD to the other Baathist state, Syria, at the start of the war look at this news...According to United Press International, the al Qaeda car was intercepted just 75 miles from the Syrian border and "carried explosives, a chemical bomb and poisonous gas."
The discovery of the al Qaeda WMD plot is sure to renew speculation that some of Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction were hidden in Syria before the U.S. attacked in March 2003, and have now found their way into al Qaeda's hands.
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| 158 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Sat, Apr 17, 2004, 23:05
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#157 - if this had happened in the US
License, registration and proof of insurance, please.
Here's my license and registration. I have insurance, but my card is lost. It's Mutual of Mecca.
I see. Is this your current address, 15 Camel Dung Way, Kandahar, Afghanistan?
It's really just a mailing address, we spend a lot of time in the mountains.
I know there's lots of al Qeada there, you guys al Qeada?
Well, not full time. The Americans come to town, then no, they leave then yes.
Fine. You guys carrying any weapons of mass destruction today?
No, officer.
Then you won't mind me havin a look, here. What's this! Some explosives, a chemical bomb and some poisonous gas. You boys are in big trouble, I'm afraid.
I didn't know that stuff was there. My Uncle Akbar must have put it there when he borrowed the car last night.
I'm gonna have to ask you boys to step outta the car, sit over there for a minute.
(Back in his car on the radio)
Thelma, I gotta couple them Al Qeada boys with some weapons of mass destruction about mile marker 12. Run this plate, will ya, NEW 911.
That plate is a FBI register, they say to let em go. Gotta domestic call out at the Johnson farm for ya.
10/4, be there in 10 minutes.
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| 160 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Wed, Apr 21, 2004, 13:21
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Re #157: The car, of course, was found in Jordan, not Iraq. By my estimate, about a third of Jordan is "within 75 miles of Syria." Maariv doesn't even mention any Syria connection (perhaps because one doesn't exist).
Using speculation about this Jordan foiled attack to confirm the rumor of smuggled weapons won't work. Perhaps Saddam did, indeed, smuggle weapons, but you won't prove it by pointing to WMD found elsewhere and state that they could have come from Saddam.
pd
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| 161 | biliruben
ID: 5061711 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 10:43
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| 162 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 14:04
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Nasty liberal cheerleader...
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| 163 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 14:07
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Don't you get it Baldwin? Michael Moore is a satirist. Geez, you of all people should have picked up on that.
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| 164 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 14:10
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I would very much like to know how can you defend the use of the term "insurgent", Baldwin.
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| 165 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 14:18
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I didn't use the term 'insurgent'. I would call Islamofascists as big a threat to the average Iraqi as they are to us, which is to say a large threat. In fact they've declared war on us when you obviously weren't looking.
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| 166 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 15:45
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JKP -- Here's the full context of Michael Moore's quote.
I'm too dense, I suppose, to grasp the subtle satire in the particular letter. Maybe Moore wants to hide his criticisms behind the label "satire". Somehow, I rather think he means it, however.
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| 167 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 15:49
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BTW, just to remind everyone, satire is generally some sort of caricature and/or an ironic illustration.
I do suppose there is one way to read that quote as ironic ... he could be mocking the Iraqi insurgents. Given his left-ward leanings, however, I find this highly unlikely. He generally reserves his mockery for the right, from what I can see.
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| 168 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 15:55
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The funniest story my guys tell me is how when they fly into Baghdad, they don't have to show a passport or go through immigration. Why not? Because they have not traveled from a foreign country -- they're coming from America TO America, a place that is ours, a new American territory called Iraq. -from Madman's link
I hope the land border crossings are better guarded.
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| 169 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:10
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although there is little down in my mind that the conservatives on this board will completely misinterpret what i am about to say, i don't see anything wrong with the remarks attributed to Moore.
What he said is not false. Although some of it is certainly speculation (...and they will win), to many of these people they feel that they are Freedom Fighters, and the fact is that their numbers are growing - as evidenced by the fact April had more casualities for U.S. soldiers than any other month in this conflict.
let's not forget, we are in someone else's country. if Iraq had attacked the United States (hey, it's possible! Ask the Bush team! they said so!), and we fought back against their occupation, would we be wrong to do so?
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| 170 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:20
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What's to misinterpret? Your hatred of Bush has led you to see the people pulling people from humvees and slitting their throats as some sort of heroes. Perhaps you think the people who blew up two busloads of schoolkids today were heroes on the order of Paul Revere as well?
Count me not surprised.
If they spread Iranian style sharia to Iraq you'd have your party supplies already purchased? Iran is paying them you know? Were the kidnappers of the American embassy in Iran heroes to you as well?
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| 171 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:21
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The flap over the quote in the cartoon is bunk. From that excerpt alone, I wouldn't assume that Moore is cheering for Islamofascists any more than I am cheering for Bush when I say that I believe he will be reelected.
However, I do find this quote to be somewhat more unsavory:I'm sorry, but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe -- just maybe -- God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end. In my opinion he's legitimizing the uprising there. From whatever information is available to us, I don't see how the people shooting at us in Iraq (it really doesn't matter what we call them) deserves such a push.
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| 172 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:25
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I wonder if he has one of those typical liberal quotes, 'I don't support the war but I do support the troops' out there?
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| 173 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:30
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Of course, that Moore quote I pasted could be seen as satire as well, since I doubt Moore really believes that some amount of American blood spilled while fighting against the uprising will be enough for 'the Iraqi people' (whoever he means by that) to forgive us. Regardless of what he means, he's proven time and again that he's an imbicile.
Also, speaking of irony...
Your hatred of Bush has led you to see the people pulling people from humvees and slitting their throats as some sort of heroes.
Baldwin's criticism of Moore is about the most ironic thing I've seen today.
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| 174 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:34
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Micheal Moore on the subject of "supporting the troops'. Of course he never actually says he'd cheer when their throat was cut.
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| 175 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:37
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MITH
Your reflexive dismissal of anything I say has left you unable to understand a simple word like satire. Get a large dictionary please and spare us your anguished ignorance.
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| 176 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:38
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PV -- you have to keep in mind that Moore is one of the world's most slippery conveyors of deceit.
Iraqi passport control in BAI does exist.
Here's at least one guy who had to show his passport ...
here's an interesting state dept. warning ... Although restrictions on the use of U.S. passports for travel to, in or through Iraq have been lifted, travel to Iraq remains very dangerous. hard to believe they wouldn't even check if you have a passport if they did have restrictions ...
This sure doesn't make it sound like they are Americans in America when they are over there.
FINALLY, the definitive statement, I believe:
State ... A person seeking entry to Iraq must appear before an authorized officer of the CPA at a port of entry, border control station, or at any place designated by the Senior Advisor of the Iraqi Ministry of Interior, in coordination with the Interim Minister of the Interior, for examination to determine whether the person may be granted entry to Iraq. Officers issue permits valid for up to 90 days, which may be renewed at CPA offices in Iraq. Permits will eventually be issued by Iraqi missions abroad.
My guess is that there were special exceptions made for his cameramen under provisions the gov't has for journalists ... or maybe he's just lying. Who knows. Regardless, the point is that they are definitely checking who's who.
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| 177 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:49
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Baldwin - Your hatred of Bush has led you to see the people pulling people from humvees and slitting their throats as some sort of heroes.
jackass - have you seen me once say that i believe they are heroes?
i very clearly said to many of these people they feel that they are Freedom Fighters.
no where did i say i felt they were freedom fighters, standing up for my beliefs.
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| 178 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 16:54
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File that under 'distinction without a difference'.
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| 179 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 17:00
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Tree -- seriously, who in the world believes that the Sadr militia or Al Quaeda are FREEDOM FIGHTERS in the sense that we, in the west, would understand that term ? ? ? ? ?
Both of those groups clearly oppose Republican forms of government, thereby easily violating one of the various pre-conditions.
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| 180 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 17:43
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Madman -- I don't really believe Moore to be a satirist, not at all. That comment was related to the Ann Coulter discussion elsewhere. And Baldwin's lack of response suggests to me the point registered.
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| 181 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 17:57
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seriously, who in the world believes that the Sadr militia or Al Quaeda are FREEDOM FIGHTERS in the sense that we, in the west, would understand that term ? ? ? ? ?
i think i expressed pretty clearly it would be unlikely that conservatives would grasp the concept - that's the whole reason we're in this mess in Iraq in the first place, in that a certain president and his cronies couldn't understand that we might be fighting a different war then we were used to fighting - ignoring the lessons of 40 years ago.
i highlighted the word "THEY" because that's who believes they're freedom fighters. THEY do. THEY THEY THEY THEY THEY THEY THEY THEY THEY!
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| 182 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 18:00
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Give it up, Tree. Anyone who makes any attempt to understand the enemy obviously hates freedom, wants the terrorists to win, and masterbates on church steeples.
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| 183 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 18:00
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Tree -- I do not believe that even Al Qaeda believes they are fighting for Democracy, even from their perspective. Everything I have read indicates that (at best) they are fighting for an Islamic dictatorship or theocracy or something of that ilk.
They are fighting to get rid of our influence, yes. But there is a big difference between fighting because of xenophobia or cultural intolerance versus fighting for FREEDOM. I think you are confusing freedom with "absence of foreign rule / influence".
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| 184 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 18:02
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jkp 180 -- ok. I'll just learn to stay out of it. That whole thing zinged by me. I still don't know what you are referring to, but that's ok.
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| 185 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 18:02
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That was more a quip and Baldwin's ever-ready liberal bashing than Madman's more forthright discussion.
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| 186 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 18:03
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Madman - To get you up to speed, Baldwin attempted to defend Ann's carelessness with the truth by labeling satire.
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| 187 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 18:08
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Freedom from oppression from a conguering nation is still freedom, Madman, whether we agree with their long-term motives or not.
I would suggest that the resistance we are encountering is from a large variety of folks with a large variety of viewpoints as to how they want Iraq to be governed. They all seem to agree that they aren't interested in the US's version of "liberation."
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| 188 | James K Polk
ID: 51010719 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 18:09
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Sorry, Madman, didn't mean to imply that you should stay out of it. Just trying to explain my post (I don't like Michael Moore much at all). But this (my post 163) is just further proof that satire doesn't work unless both writer and reader recognize it as such.
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| 189 | yankeeh8tr
ID: 3582217 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 20:13
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I would think that of all the people here, you would understand best the complaints, demonstrations, resistance and outright fighting against any US - or US style - of government in Iraq, baldwin. Your laments about the state of western (ours in particular) are well documented here. Why would a pious Muslim, whos beliefs are even more conservative and restrictive than your own, ever welcome our "help"?
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| 190 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 20:58
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Polk
Madman -- I don't really believe Moore to be a satirist, not at all. That comment was related to the Ann Coulter discussion elsewhere. And Baldwin's lack of response suggests to me the point registered. - Polk
BZZZZZT Moore is a satirist. He's a bad one. His underlieing points are untrue but his attempt is clearly satire. He thinks he is shining a light on the absurd and thereby proving his liberal points. The fact that he doesn't score any hits doesn't disqualify him as a satirist.
And I haven't had time to be fully responsive the last four days. Don't be so quick to concede points for me.
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| 191 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 21:07
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Tree
i don't see anything wrong with the remarks attributed to Moore.
They They They They, I said they.
Has it ocurred to you or Moore that They as in 'the Iraqi people' as opposed to They as in 'Islamofascists working for Iran' and 'baathists' are not the same thing?
Do you think the Kurds might see something wrong with Moore's statement? Do you think the Sunni who would be persecuted under a Shiite sharia might see something wrong with it? Do you thing secular Iraqis might have a problem with it?
I'd ask you to rethink that position if there was any hope.
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| 192 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 21:09
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Anyone who makes any attempt to understand the enemy obviously hates freedom - Bili
I've made efforts to understand the Iraqi people in general and the small percentage of Iranian inspired Islamofascists as well and I don't hate freedom.
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| 193 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 21:14
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I would think that of all the people here, you would understand best the complaints, demonstrations, resistance and outright fighting against any US
Indeed I do. Iran understands their real allies and hope for victory are the western media and western liberals and their willfully mistaking Iranian backed Shiite extremists for the voice of Iraq.
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| 194 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 21:24
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YHTR
Why would a pious Muslim, whos beliefs are even more conservative and restrictive than your own, ever welcome our "help"?
First of all Iraq is one of the most secular nations among the Islamic sphere of influence.
The Sunni should well welcome a firewall between themselves and Shiite extremists since the Sunni are considered apostates worthy of death to the most extreme Shiites.
The Kurds welcome our help, even the Muslim ones.
Are you so sure the average Shiite thinks the Komeini revolution has been a success? Consider the discontent in Iran right now.
Now the one point I will grant is that the Shiites are the majority and the 'big thinkers' who came up with this idea must be smarter than me if they know how to rush that country onto the wobbly legs of a young democracy.
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| 195 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 21:30
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#193 followup
Also Iran understands that the Iranian mullahs could not sustain their grip in the face of a successful democracy in Iraq given the tenuous grip they already have on power. Thus you can expect an all out well prepared, well financed, 'tailored for the media' effort to forestall that developement.
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| 196 | Tree
ID: 41301721 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 21:39
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Do you think the Sunni who would be persecuted under a Shiite sharia might see something wrong with it?
funny, i was going to comment earlier that it's ironic that a shared hatred of the U.S. in Iraq had brought Sunni and Shiite together against a common foe.
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| 197 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 21:47
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Yeah, every last one of them. Who sells you this? Some reporter sitting in a hotel bar in Baghdad? I am so sure the Sunni's who buried Shiites in roadbeds and beat them with baseball bats and hung them by the thousands and cut their tongues out can't wait to have the tables turned.
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| 198 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 30792616 Thu, Apr 22, 2004, 23:20
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The Kurds welcome our help, even the Muslim ones
The Kurds wanted our help before we bailed on them, letting Saddam gas many to death and bury them in unmarked graves. The Kurds don't trust us. Don't make the mistake of thinking they do.
In fact, no one there trusts us. Bush has it exactly right that we need to set up things quickly and get out of dodge. The longer we are there the worse it will be.
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| 199 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 04:20
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But of course I didn't say they trust us nor had we earned it before Bush II. The question on the floor was whether the Iraqis welcome our help and that is something that could have been said about the Kurds for just about forever.
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| 200 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 10:45
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br 187 -- Freedom from oppression from a conguering nation is still freedom, Madman, whether we agree with their long-term motives or not.
I disagree.
The word "freedom" as used in the West generally conveys a meaning of either some degree of self-determination (as in a Republican form of gov't) and/or some degree of civil / economic liberty protection.
You can be free from oppression from a conquering nation, but still not free. Further, if you are fighting so that YOU or your ideology can become the thugs in control, then the term "Freedom Fighter" is an especially bad misnomer.
It is not a matter of longer-term or shorter-term goals; in neither the short nor the long term do our enemies wish to establish anything remotely approaching freedom as we would understand it.
However, I will grant you that the understanding of "Freedom" in the post-colonization world is different. Al Qaeda DOES probably view itself as Freedom Fighters if you want to use those words in the Islamic world.
But this board is located in the Eastern US. It is predominantly American in orientation. To suggest that Al Qaeda views themselves as "Freedom Fighters" not just as the Islamic World would view themselves, but as *WE* would understand the term is grossly inaccurate. Therefore, to ACCURATELY describe their self-perceived ideology to a Westerner, you cannot use the term "Freedom Fighter".
By using the term "Freedom Fighter" in the West, and by claiming that Al Qaeda (or Sadr's militia) views themselves as "Freedom Fighters", Tree is implicitly making the claim not just that they are fighting foreign oppression, but that they are fighting for some version of popular rule (i.e., Republican or Democratic form of gov't) with, in all likelihood, some predefined limitation on governmental powers of regulation. Al Qaeda does not view itself as such.
Further, this discussion is started in reference to Moore's description of Sadr as "minutemen", which is to parallel them with our own patriots who set up our version of limited government. This further imbues Tree's comment with these otherwise self-evident properties ... properties that, to repeat, Al Qaeda and Sadr vehemently and grossly reject.
To sum up, Al Qaeda and Sadr do not view themselves as the revolutionaries who are desiring to kick out a foreign occupier so they can establish some form of Republican limited self-rule. They only meet the first condition. That's good enough for them to view themselves as "freedom fighters" in the limited Islamic sense of the word; that's not good enough for a Westerner to make the claim that they beleive themselves to be "freedom fighters" as a Westerner would understand the term.
If Tree would say, "Al Qaeda views themselves as Freedom Fighters, which means to them that they wish to establish brutal Islamic theocracies" THEN I would accept it. But he leaves on the notation of what it means to them. Instead, he simply proclaims that they view themselves as Freedom Fighters. He is discussing this concept to an American in an American-hosted forum. I can only presume that he means that there are true parallels between Al Qaeda and the Minutemen in our own revolution, or between Al Qaeda and any militant organization fighting for limited government over a "free" people. There is no evidence for such a belief on his part. Therefore, I must express my disagreement.
The key here is to truly look at the world from other people's perspectives and UNDERSTAND it and also understand how language means different things in different contexts.
(on a partisan note: This is the sort of nuance that simplistic GWBII thinking picks up on instinctively, but that intellectual thought tends to confuse.)
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| 201 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 10:45
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(btw, in my parenthetical, I should have said "so-called" intellectual thought)
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| 202 | Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 11:03
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If Tree would say, "Al Qaeda views themselves as Freedom Fighters, which means to them that they wish to establish brutal Islamic theocracies"
by saying "They believe themselves to be freedom fighters," and then attaching your qualifier to it would make me feel like i'm speaking to an idiot and would make me feel like i'm condescending to you.
"They believe themselves to be freedom fighters," is plain enough that anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can infer context.
you're smart enough to know the difference without that extra statement, and i'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't need said qualifier.
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| 203 | Seattle Zen
ID: 53252259 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 11:27
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Enter Comic book guy re post 200:
"Worst Post Ever"
Jesus, Madman, how can you expect anyone to ever read another post by you after that? What a load!
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| 204 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 13:09
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Tree 202 -- In your post 169, you said that Michael Moore, when he made the parallel between Al Qaeda (and/or Sadr) and Minutemen, was not false.
Now, you are claiming that *they* do *not* believe that they are like the Minutemen (our conception of "Freedom Fighters", as per your parallel in 169), a direct (and accurate) challenge to Moore's analogy. I believe this leaves us in agreement.
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| 205 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 13:14
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Waste of time Madman...SZ and Tree are relativists and can't even wrap their mind around the concept of these schoolbus bombers being objectively evil.
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| 207 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 13:22
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Idiot. You can't wrap your mind around anything other than the concept that any group you choose to malign thinks with only one brain and is capable of only one thought. Some of the people shooting at us are responsible for bombing a school and Baldwin comes to the objective conclusion that they are all evil.
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| 208 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 13:43
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Yes MITH, surely there must be great moral debates among Sadr's militia over the morality of burning alive kidnap victims who were only there to repair the infrastructure. No black and white there. It miiiiight be 'good' in a certain light. Relatively speaking of course.
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| 209 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 14:38
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Baldwin why is it so hard for you to understand that some of the people shooting at us are doing so simply because of their natural resistance to accepting American occupation? I know you've said that you would dutifully provide personal hygene services to people who you see as oppressors while they mocked you, but you shouldn't be so quick to label as evil others who choose instead to go with the resistance. As sadistic as that resistance might be, is it so hard to understand why many civilian Iraqis might still see them as a lesser evil than the Empirical American occupiers, given the anti-American rhetoric they were raised to believe in, and the failure of the US in the past to thwart such notions? Do you deny that the Iraqi resistance has grown since the end to major combat operations (whatever that meant)? You think the new members of the various insurgencies were all murderous thugs who simply hadn't yet found an outlet for their berserk rage?
Yes, there are most certainly are great moral debates among everyday regular Iraqis and within the hearts and minds of many individuals themselves over who to side with. Obviously, many make the wrong choice. Many have chosen to side with us, I'm not about to label all of them as inherently good because I think they chose the right side to fight on.
I take exception to your post 205 for essentially the same reason that I patently disagree with the Moore quote in the cartoon in post 162. As the insurgencies have grown, their members have come more and more from different walks of life.
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| 210 | walk Leader
ID: 32928238 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 15:56
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Sorry for the rare post, I am not as well-read and linked as the rest of you, but enjoy reading and am inclined to chime in here. I hope it's okay.
My guess MITH (OT: it is nice nowadays to see donnie in uniform by the way) is that the evil references are to the suicide type bombers and insurgents who are taking civilian lives, be it Iraqi or otherwise, in brutal fashion. However, I agree (for what it's worth), that the other insurgents, the one's fighting for what they feel is their freedom from opression (e.g. U.S.) is not so evil. As you say, we are (the) evil (imperialists) to them. I'll buy that. However-however, I'm also inclined to believe that the current rebels represent a number of different motivations and types, all of whom are aligned in having a common foe, U.S. I wish I had a better read on the proportion of insurgents who are mercenaries, baathists, terrorists, etc. I'm not sure they are freedom fighters to the extent that Michael Moore says (I actually like Moore a lot, because of his "satire" and willingness to point out a lot of wrongs in the world, even if he is sometimes extreme), but I also don't feel we should be there. Mr. two-sided face man here...
Either way, I surely wished we had not gone in, cannot figure out how we are going to get out (June 30 seems like a tough goal), and wonder what'll it'll cost us in total, two-five years down the line (in terms of lives, int'l relations, and $). I also wonder what Iraq will look like 2-5 years down the line, and will our "efforts" have been exposed as totally a waste. I feel they are/were a waste to begin with, but I don't think most of America feels that way...
- walk
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| 211 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 1629107 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 16:02
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Walk, I'm not quite as high on Donnie's new job as you might think, but I agree that it is just great to see him in the stripes again.
Anyhow, I simply take exception to the insurgency (the people shooting at us) being painted in one broad stroke, whether Michael Moore does it or Baldwin.
Also, the goal (as I understood it) was never to get out by June 30, just to hand over power by then. Exactly how much power and who the recipiant will be remains to be seen, of course.
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| 212 | walk Leader
ID: 32928238 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 16:10
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Gotcha on both counts, MITH (the donnie thing and the exception to the insurgency thing), I agree. Regarding the June 30th thing, it just feels arbitrary, and ultimately, either a mere ceremony with no change, or some premature change. I'm not sure if I'm conveying my thoughts well here. It seems like June 30 will be moot, and in the grander scheme, we are stuck in Iraq for a long time, or we leave it mess, a different mess than the more orderly and brutal dictatorship it was before we went there...but that's not why we went in there anyway.
- walk
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| 213 | Madman Donor
ID: 398591212 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 16:50
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walk -- good to see you still around.
I haven't piped up much on the June 30 thing ... I agree that it is arbitrary, but it is also important because (a) it has come to symbolize whether or not we can keep our word to let Iraqi's take over and (b) having a deadline like that forces the parties to come to the table. I think everyone has known for a long time that this negotiation over the structure of a new gov't was going to be incredibly difficult. Without a hard-and-fast arbitrary deadline, they would never agree. I would anticipate that people will start caving in on negotiations during June, especially the end of it. Or, maybe not. But confusion and bickering until then only confirms to me that some deadline was required. We won't know until after June 30 if it was too early or not.
Regarding my point (a), symbolism, we need to give Iraqi's who are on our side "talking points" (for lack of a better term). Having an Iraqi spokesperson for an Iraqi Governing Counsel that has at least SOME additional authority would do that. I am speculating that this is also why the primary spokespeople for the CPA right now are NOT Iraqi ... it will help to accentuate the change-over when it occurs.
Again, until after June 30, I am not optimistic that militia's like Sadr's will stop fighting us and work for a united Iraq. However, I am hopeful that at least some will start doing that after June 30, even if it is arbitrary and mostly just symbolic. It's what the administration has been gambling on for quite some time now, at the least.
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| 214 | walk Leader
ID: 32928238 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 17:00
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I'll buy that logic, madman, and hope it results in said benefits. I tellya, being president, why? The pressure, pressure, pressure! I guess the ego, ego, ego to be in charge. I sweat what food I'm going to serve my kids if the wife is not around for dinner.
;-) walk
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| 215 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 17:48
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Interesting.
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| 216 | Baldwin
ID: 463571714 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 17:51
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Also interesting...Moqtada al-Sadr represents a formidable problem for the military in Iraq, the U.S. intelligence community has acknowledged, according to Geostrategy-Direct, the global intelligence news service.
Al-Sadr might be the bane among Shiite clerics. But over the last year he has managed to completely intimidate even the most prominent of clerics, such as Ayatollah Ali Sistani.
Al-Sadr has also managed to win supporters and cooperation within the Sunni community. His poster has been pasted in mosques even in hardcore Fallujah.
U.S. intelligence analysts said al-Sadr has managed to inspire just about everybody who opposes the U.S. in Iraq.
More importantly, al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army have exploited a new class of disenfranchised Shiites who are unemployed and have nothing to lose. He has won thousands of Shiites – and in some cases Sunnis – with tens of millions of dollars of Iranian money.
The intelligence analysts say the U.S. military underestimated several factors:
1. The extent to which Saddam Hussein kept Iraq together by pure intimidation. 2. The absence of a community infrastructure in Iraq.
3. The vulnerability of a socially- and politically-decimated Iraq to neighboring Iran.
Al-Sadr brings the United States to a crossroad. Over the next few weeks, the U.S. will either push hard or bring Sunni and Shiite insurgents to the wall and reign by fear until an authoritarian Iraq can rule itself.
Or, the Iraqi Governing Council and the security forces will disintegrate, with soldiers and police doing little more than showing up to work and collecting salaries – but failing to impose order.
The analysts warn that the United States cannot rely on either the Sunni or Shiite clergy. Indeed, they have never been in a position of influence on a national level.
In many towns and cities, Shiite clerics took over municipal services but were quickly confronted by rivals who stressed their opposition to the United States.
Their analysts' assessment: a Shiite insurgency could go nationwide over the next few months.
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| 217 | biliruben
ID: 441182916 Fri, Apr 23, 2004, 18:14
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"They brought our bags in and I made a hanky disappear. The guard was initially unimpressed so I showed him the secret of the trick in the hope he would let me off," she said yesterday.
Anything to survive, I suppose, but I consider giving away magic tricks high-treason.
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| 218 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 08:23
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The case for the WMD's having been exported becomes stronger as details leak out.
Way too good to just cut-n-paste portions, just jam packed with blockbuster info. Read it all.
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| 219 | Tree
ID: 412835 Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 09:34
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let me get this straight.
a 19-year-old kid makes the aforelinked claims (among his other claims are links between Saddam and 9/11 - he also considers WND a viable source), in a story written by another guy who's credits include being the editor of such clasics as "Left Illusions" and "The Hate America Left" (which, btw, is described as a book that will expose the seditious connections and unseemly goals of the new generation of anti-Americans, and the author of the sarcastic "15 Tips to Be a Good Leftist", and you consider this to be a strong argument?
The foolish are easily fooled...
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| 220 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 10:05
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I haven't really found Ryan Mauro to be all that credible--he gets gigs based on his age and the fact that he spouts the latest conservative theory (mobile labs! the nukes are there, we just have to look harder! He must have moved them, then! Of course they had nukes--Saddam didn't shoot the scientists!).
To cut short a potential objection about him: I don't believe that the fact that he's often reprinted in WND is necessarily a mark against him. I think he's quoted for the reasons above--he is consistently backed the Administrative position.
I think we have to ask ourselves, however: What if he's right? If so, why hasn't Syria (or the other recipient countries) used any of the precursor chemicals or weapons (Mauro is remarkably inconsisntent in how the stuff is described).
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| 221 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 10:14
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from the link in #218..
Glazov: So if all this evidence is credible, why wouldn't the Bush Administration take advantage of this information?
Mauro: There are multiple ideas out there. I tend to believe that the foreign policy implications of these revelations explain the Administration’s silence. The politicians don’t want to feel obliged to take strong action against Syria
If this is true, then the entire premise of a War on Terror is a fraud. One of the justifications for the Iraq invasion was that Saddam would either use WMD himself, or allow them to fall into the hands of terrorists. If they were transported to Syria, that scenario would a reality.
If the Bush administration ignores this reality while claiming to be serious about a War on Terror, then what is the real agenda? If the weapons were suspected to have been shipped to Iran, would there not be even more sabre-rattling for military action against Tehran?
But then, Iran is rich in natural energy resources and Syria is not. So the reality is that there really is no War on Terror, but a War for Securing Future Energy Sources, at least if we can believe the 19 year-old wunderkind.
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| 222 | GolfFreak
ID: 14140284 Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 10:39
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Pancho Villa I think your up in L13
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| 223 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 11:55
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You don't think it is possible Bush just realistically can only fit so much onto his plate in 8 years?
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| 224 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 13:52
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and amongst those things is NOT the War on Terra which has driven this administrations rehetoric over the past 4 1/2 years?????????? (Or was that not sufficient room for that, while busying oneself with trampling the 4th ammendment?)
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| 225 | Perm Dude
ID: 19751117 Tue, Aug 12, 2008, 21:27
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Ron Suskind interview on Jon Stewart
We have a freaking circus running the country right now. Years from now, historians will wonder at the incredible incompetence of it all.
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| 226 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 05:47
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If only LBJ had been conducting these two wars.
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| 227 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 06:41
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If only LBJ had been conducting these two wars.
I think you're on to something. Maybe the Democrabs have "war envy". FDR interned Japanese-Americans, Truman dropped the bomb--twice on Japan and precided over the Korean War, and JFK and LBJ fanned the flames in Vietnam.
Oh well, but "Bush lied, they died" is such a catchy tune.
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| 228 | Tree
ID: 22713146 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 07:15
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never mind the fact that you guys are apparently living 40 years ago in the past.
no question vietnam was wrong - but now you're somehow comparing our entry in WW II - you know, after we were ATTACKED - with our war in Iraq, where we've been the aggressor in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands?
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| 229 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 08:49
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with our war in Iraq, where we've been the aggressor in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? i think you are mixing up your wars. i assume by hundreds of thousands you mean WW2. And when was the last time the US the aggressor in the Iraq? Say Iraq was wrong, but don't exaggerate and make Iraq sound like WW2.
Hypothetical question if the US government had know that pearl harbor was going to happen and the let it happen in order to draw us in to WW2, how would we view that act in retrospect?
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| 230 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 10:09
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Hypotyhetical response to a hypothetical question...with utter disdain and disgust.
As for when we were the aggressor in Iraq...are you kidding? We INITIATED the war in Iraq. WE crossed into teir borders, with Army, Air Force and Marines; supported by the Navy.
And it is quite safe to say, that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died, since we invaded their nation.
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| 231 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 10:18
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I was not denying we were the aggressor i was just asking how long has it been sense we would be classified as aggressors and not peace keepers.
i would like to see any evidence of this: where we've been the aggressor in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? and sarge you opinion is not a bases for fact.
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| 232 | Tree
ID: 67581211 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 10:18
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i assume by hundreds of thousands you mean WW2.
no, i mean Iraq. the *documented* death toll is probably around 90,000...
And when was the last time the US the aggressor in the Iraq? Say Iraq was wrong, but don't exaggerate and make Iraq sound like WW2.
seriously?
the US attacked Iraq. the US is the aggressor. that is the plain and simple truth.
Iraq is nothing like WW2. in WW2, we were defending ourselves after an attack on a US Military base. in Iraq, we went into that country, and attacked someone who, at worst, was peeing on us from half-way across the globe.
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| 233 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 10:37
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no, i mean Iraq. the *documented* death toll is probably around 90,000...
a) that is not hundred of thousands as claimed earlier. b) those deaths did not all result at the hands of of the US as you imply in post #225.
i assume by hundreds of thousands you mean WW2. yes i assumed you meant WW2 because we did lead to direct deaths of hundreds of thousands.
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| 234 | Tree
ID: 67581211 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 12:37
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no, i mean Iraq. the *documented* death toll is probably around 90,000...
a) that is not hundred of thousands as claimed earlier.
if the *documented* is 90,000, i think it's perfectly fair to put those numbers significantly higher.
b) those deaths did not all result at the hands of of the US as you imply in post #225.
yea, they did. the US doesn't Iraq, those deaths don't happen.
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| 235 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 13:38
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yea, they did. the US doesn't Iraq, those deaths don't happen.
I should not even bother disagreeing with you, clearly you do not use rules of logic to form your answers. you just stated that if A happens at time 1 and if B happens at time 3 then A caused B which is clearly not true. this is an example of correlation not causation. what your post should have read was:
with a war in Iraq, there have been tens of thousands of deaths?
in stead you up the deaths by a magnitude and you imply that the deaths happened at hands of Americans. which I am sure is what you intended.
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| 236 | Tree
ID: 67581211 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 13:43
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I should not even bother disagreeing with you, clearly you do not use rules of logic to form your answers. you just stated that if A happens at time 1 and if B happens at time 3 then A caused B which is clearly not true. this is an example of correlation not causation. what your post should have read was
so, are you disagreeing with me that those deaths will happen anyway if the US doesn't attack Iraq?
let's just give you the number. let's give you that 90K. are you telling me those 90K die anyway, regardless of whether the US attacks Iraq or not.
the US caused those deaths in Iraq. period. whether directly or indirectly, they were caused by the US incursion into Iraq.
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| 237 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:24
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let's just give you the number. let's give you that 90K. are you telling me those 90K die anyway, regardless of whether the US attacks Iraq or not. maybe, maybe not how can i say what would or would not have happened. i mean Saddam could have started a war with Iran again, ethnically cleansed some kurds. Or there could have been coup who knows how many would have died if that occurred. it hard to make a judgment in place where death was all ready common. I must have missed the part where the US introduced sectarian hate in Iraq, because they all loved each other before the US came.
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| 238 | Tree
ID: 67581211 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:55
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maybe, maybe not how can i say what would or would not have happened. i mean Saddam could have started a war with Iran again, ethnically cleansed some kurds. Or there could have been coup who knows how many would have died if that occurred. it hard to make a judgment in place where death was all ready common. I must have missed the part where the US introduced sectarian hate in Iraq, because they all loved each other before the US came.
what do those have to do with anything. i can say beyond certainty that the 90k who died, would not have died if the US had not gone in.
would some of them have died in some other way? quite likely. but that's completely irrelevant..
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| 239 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 16:05
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can say beyond certainty that the 90k who died, would not have died if the US had not gone in.
would some of them have died in some other way? quite likely. so you know for sure they would have not died, but they probably some of them would have died? please make up your mind?
irrelevent...your own words:
yea, they did. the US doesn't Iraq, those deaths don't happen.
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| 240 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 16:33
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I must have missed the part where the US introduced sectarian hate in Iraq, because they all loved each other before the US came.
You must have missed the part where removing Saddam created a power vacuum, since the Bush administration's plan was to replace Saddam with Ahmed Chalabi, who had no influence with any of Iraq's sects.
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| 242 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:51
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The Right wing meme of the day!
This is like removing unexploded ordnance from a field and saying that the field owner had a stockpile of hundreds of 50 mil guns.
We always knew of the deteriorating and unusable stockpiles, which the (Godless) UN had recorded through their inspections. They weren't useful as weapons anymore and Iraq lacked the will, or need, to move them.
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| 243 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 18:57
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roflmfao B.....talk about trying to pass off a sows ear as a pearl. Good gawd man.
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| 244 | Boldwin
ID: 23111863 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 04:18
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U.S. Prepares for Syria Intervention over Chemical Weapons, not even bothering to bring the Colin Powell Dog and Pony Show before the UN first.
Don't even expect a subdued hypocritical murmur from the Cindy Sheehans and the Bush lied, people died, crowd.
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| 245 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 06:15
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Hahaha
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| 246 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 12:13
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Heh. The logic on that one is so convoluted I'm not even going to try. Let's just tag it "I hate America" and move on.
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| 247 | Boldwin
ID: 23111863 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 12:24
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The libs are so deep in cognitive dissonance on this one they can't even feel the irony tidal waves.
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| 248 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 12:36
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Don't do it, boys. Not worth it.
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