Forum: pol
Page 1590
Subject: Hugo Chavez: Fidel Castro for the next century


  Posted by: Myboyjack - Dude [14826271] Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 15:29

Venezuelans March to Protest Recall Vote

Blowing whistles and chanting, tens of thousands of Venezuelans marched through Caracas on Saturday to protest the rejection of a petition aimed at recalling President Hugo Chavez. ....
"We're prepared to take to the streets a thousand times until we're allowed the recall referendum," said opposition leader Henry Ramos Allup. "Nobody is going to rob us of our right to oust Hugo Chavez peacefully."


Opposition leaders have appealed to the Organization of American States and the U.S.-based Carter Center for support, saying the stability of the world's fifth-biggest oil exporter is at stake[good luck getting the Carter Center to take a left-wing wannabe dictator on head-on]
Chavez also denied National Guard troops committed abuses while trying to control rioting last week. He said his opponents, who burned tires, blocked roads and hurled gasoline bombs at soldiers, instigated the violence.


He accused the United States of spreading lies about his government and urged foreign governments to condemn U.S. intrusion in Venezuelan affairs.


Hopefully, with no Cold War limitations, we can handle this better than we did Cuba.




 
1Baldwin
      ID: 560191911
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 15:50
I've posted a great deal on this situation. The best site IMO for ongoing information has been this site tho there are many.

This guy is so anti-American that his former [bodyguard?] who defected described the great lengths he went to to forge links to Al Qaeda and the Mugabe's and other America haters. There are lots to be found by the websurfer of great significance in this story.

Since we get a quarter of our oil from this country it's the kind of situation that you would expect to get active attention.

Since America alegedly has a Monroe Doctrine this is the sort of situation that you would expect would get active attention.
 
2Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 16:25
While agreeing that Chavez is turning Venezuela into a chaotic mess, I fail to see, at this point, what the Monroe Doctrine has to do with it.

The Monroe Doctrine concerns non-Western Hemisphere governments colonizing and setting up shop in North and South America, and the Carribean. Communication with enemies of the US is hardly a breach of the Monroe doctrine. The CIA is active in getting Chavez out, because of Venezuela's strategic position as an oil supplier to the US. I think you have the Bush doctrine confused with the Monroe doctrine.
 
3Baldwin
      ID: 2211132920
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 16:57
PV

Sue me if I conflate the Monroe Doctrine with keeping communism, a political flavor foreign to this hemispere, from spreading throughout as is it's stated goal. If you want to claim Chavez isn't communist and doesn't want to spread his revolution across the hemisphere I believe you will have your work cut out for you.
 
4Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 17:00
Even if he is Communist the Monroe Doctrine, while anti-Communist in nature, was developed to keep Communism from coming to this hemisphere, not to deal with Communists already here.
 
5Baldwin
      ID: 2211132920
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 17:29
Sometimes if it isn't out too far you can still get the toothpaste back in the tube.
 
6Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 17:41
This interview with Chavez may give a broader interpretation to Chavez's political ideology than Baldwin's broad-stroke, "He's a communist wanting to spread his revolution across the hemisphere" take.

Chavez was popularly elected
48% of the seats in the National Assembly belong to opposition parties
There is freedom of the press
His property program gives state land and makes it privately owned - a common communist concept

Of course it's hard to take on the powerful and wealthy oil barons, and Chavez being the hothead that he is has not made his task of wealth re-distribution easy or necessarily successful. The problems of Venezuela are Venezuelan. Chavez is a Mother Teresa compared to Peru's Fujimori, but then Peru doesn't have oil, and Fujimori never stated an admiration of Castro, which I'm sure is Baldwin's(and the CIA's) main gripe.
 
7bibA
      ID: 361472522
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 21:44
Dang, learn something new every day. Dumb me.....I didn't even know that Communism was such a threat back in 1823 when President James Monroe expounded the Monroe Doctrine's principals in a message to congress. Here I always thought he was merely letting European powers know that the U.S. would no longer allow said Europeans to make further colonial inroads into the western hemisphere.

So glad to get the straight scoop!
 
8bibA
      ID: 361472522
      Sat, Mar 06, 2004, 21:54
I have a question for those on the right who in one breath claim to want to spread democracy throughout the world, and then claim that such as Chavez should be "dealt with" by the CIA.

Is your definition of democracy "vote for anyone you desire, so long as it meets with our approval"?

Reminds me of the famous quote from Henry Ford, when he began producing his cars on the assembly line. "You can have any color of car you want, so long as it's black".
 
9Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 14826271
      Sun, Mar 07, 2004, 01:02
I Love Strawman. He rules. Good one biba.
 
10Baldwin
      ID: 2211132920
      Sun, Mar 07, 2004, 02:49
biba

1) Why would the Monroe Doctrine be limited to those governments existant at the time it was written?

2) I believe people in favor of democracy everywhere are people who hate dictatorship and tyranny. I think they would hate the kind of anti-democratic denial of the people's right to recall Chavez going on right now in whichever hemisphere it occured. If the Venezuelans are not allowed this right a lot of people would not look at that government as having legitimacy. These are actually Chavez' own rules that he is breaking when the outcome doesn't favor him.
 
11nerveclinic
      ID: 38145910
      Sun, Mar 07, 2004, 05:07
BAldwin 10... I believe people in favor of democracy everywhere are people who hate dictatorship and tyranny

Ah but the USA has gone out of it's way to continuely install and support dictators...why even Saddam Hussien we helped install...and we all know this to be factual.

Examples? General Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez El salvador, General Francisco Franco, Noriega, Marcos, Pinochet, Somoza

There are many more I am not versed enough to discuss,a simple search on the web will enlighten...
so of what do you speak?
 
12Baldwin
      ID: 2211132920
      Sun, Mar 07, 2004, 06:38
I really am sure you could explain why the USA does that Nerve. No sarcasm intended.

My explanation is that Satan runs this entire system [which is on it's last legs], not just the tyranical ones.

Your explanation I expect would be that there are evil people behind the scene pulling the strings.

Both are correct.
 
13Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sun, Mar 07, 2004, 09:56
Chavez's recall opponents should have the opportunity to validate the 3 million signatures they claim to have garnered. While it appears that his recall commission invalidated 1.2 million signatures in a blatant attempt to squelch the movement, it hardly puts Chavez in the category of a Castro or any other dictator who denies basic civil rights and freedoms to its citizens and to the press.
Having the US and the CIA as an adversary is daunting for any leader, and Chavez may be rightfully paranoid given the current administration's propensity to see oil-producing nations as little more than sattelite states which either abide by our rules, or face extreme intervention in their domestic affairs.

The US has an opportunity to use diplomacy to help diffuse the Venezuelan situation. That can't be done by declaring partisan support for either side. Our distaste for Chavez's socialist policies should not be translated into a subversive campaign for regime change to better serve our economic position.
 
14Tree
      ID: 5251612
      Sun, Mar 07, 2004, 13:56
Venezuelans march to protest denial of recall effort

everytime i see a story like this, it makes me wonder why we Americans didn't take to the street in great numbers when we had a recount vote stopped by a biased Supreme Court.

If what happened here had happened in a Latin American country, Bush might not be our President now.
 
15Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Sun, Mar 07, 2004, 19:49
Bush was adamant in his "War on Terrorism" that he would go after terrorists and the countries that harbor them.
Evidently he didn't include himself in the mix. link
 
16Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 10:16
The title of this thread is really propoganda in its slimiest form. The final sentence:

Hopefully, with no Cold War limitations, we can handle this better that we did Cuba.

"we can handle"?

Exactly what does MBJ mean by that? What right(other than a misguided sense of global superiority) does the US have taking sides in the internal affairs of Venezuela? Exactly what diplomatic action has Bush taken to diffuse the situation? Answer: None. Instead, he has suppoted making the situation more volatile, then wonders why Chavez uses anti-American rhetoric.
This article gives some insight into the referral process that is ongoing, as it pertains to the Venezuelan constitution. Again, this is a situation that needs to be resolved by Venezuelans, with the help of neutral observers.
Branding Chavez as Castro, working behind the scenes to encourage armed opposition, and sheltering Venezualan criminals in the US is not help, and is not neutral.
 
17Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 10:32
slimy.


"we can handle"?

Exactly what does MBJ mean by that?


Why of course I mean myself and the army of jack-booted thugs that work for me, PV. WE plan on marching straight to Venezuela and wrecking havoc there.

If you think fourty years of isolating the a communist dictator in Cuba has worked out well; then I guess you would be antagonistic to handling things better than that in Venezuela.
 
18Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 10:44
What does a communist dictator in Cuba have to do with a popularly elected president in Venezuela? Why do you continually try to bond the two, when it is two completely different scenarios?
 
19bibA
      ID: 361472522
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 11:50
One has to wonder about a scenario. Let's say we had invaded Cuba in a similar manner as we have Iraq, back in 1960. Assuming that we were victorious, a new leader would have been installed (Batista?)

I would submit that even if we would have disuaded Russia from becoming involved, the loss of life would have been very great. Since 1960, what would the net differences in lives lost or saved have been?

Has Castro really slaughtered so many of his own people as to have justified an invasion and war? Not to mention the precedent it would have set.

Kennedy promised the world that the U.S. would never attack another country unless in self defense, and I am proud that we managed to live up to that promise for a long time.
 
20Tortfeasor
      Sustainer
      ID: 37948287
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 11:59
Tree: "everytime i see a story like this, it makes me wonder why we Americans didn't take to the street in great numbers when we had a recount vote stopped by a biased Supreme Court."

So the court is biased when the result is something you don't agree with, like the Bush v. Gore decision, and it's perfectly logical and unbiased when it decides Lawrence, with which you agree. Correct?

Quit your complaining. The Supreme Court is basically a crapshoot anyway as to how it will come out. While I don't agree with CJ on his constant criticism of you, I do find your persistent conduct of making every effort to relate any topic to Bush and his perceived inadequacies to be very tiring.

The political process is what it is. In this country, you go to a court to get your justice. There's no credible allegation here, as there is in Venezuela, that the result in the Supreme Court was rigged by a doctator.
 
21Tortfeasor
      Sustainer
      ID: 37948287
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 12:00
Should have said, "The judicial process is what it is."
 
22Tortfeasor
      Sustainer
      ID: 37948287
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 13:55
And "doctator" should obviously be, well, dictator.

Although it makes me chuckle somewhat to think of what the job description of a doctator might be...
 
23Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 14:28
from #20..There's no credible allegation here, as there is in Venezuela, that the result in the Supreme Court was rigged by a dictator.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother providing links.
Chavez is not a dictator. There is an allegation involving the recall election in Venezuela. Whether or not it is credible remains to be seen. Both sides are claiming inconsistencies. There is evidence the opposition is involved in fraud, and that their signatures be validated. This would be the same if this election were in the US.
The opposition wants to skirt the process, and attempt to remove Chavez by means of full-scaled rebellion. It is no secret that the US wants Chavez out, and to think that the CIA is involved in inciting, encouraging and supporting the opposition is not a stretch.

MBJ has had plenty of opportunity to provide information that backs his claim that Venezuela, under Chavez, is days away from becoming Cuba under Castro. He has failed to do so, yet in #17 continues to promote this unsubstantiated claim. Playing on anti-Castro emotions will not solve the current Venezuelan situation. Having the CIA undermine the fragile democracy that exists in Venezuela is not the answer.
Why couldn't the president forgo a fund raiser or two to meet with Chavez, and address the issues? At the very least, the Secretary of State. Is diplomacy so foreign a concept with this administration that it would encourage the type of innuendo displayed by this thread title as opposed to finding meaninful, long-lasting relationships with our fellow nations?
 
24Tortfeasor
      Sustainer
      ID: 37948287
      Mon, Mar 08, 2004, 14:56
Sorry for the mistake, sometimes I don't have the time to read EVERY link...

Nonetheless, change "dictator" to "president" and my point still stands. And that point really had nothing to do with the substance of your argument, only with Tree.
 
25Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Tue, Mar 09, 2004, 10:55
You know - Hitler was democratically elected. It's what he does afterwards that made him a dictator. Things like this:

After two judges freed several protesters arrested last week during street demonstrations against Chávez, the judges lost their jobs.

When a Venezuelan court ruled last year that Cuban doctors helping the poor here lacked the required accreditations, Chávez disbanded the court and kept the Cubans.

And when the pro-Chávez majority in the legislature wanted to ram through a controversial bill changing the debating rules in Congress, the National Assembly convened in a park in an unfriendly pro-Chávez neighborhood -- where the opposition dared not go.

So when the National Elections Council last week cited a technicality to set aside more than one million signatures on petitions seeking to recall Chávez, critics said it was just the latest of a long string of actions that illustrate the real problem with the president -- he cheats. [snip]

''We are dealing with an illegitimate government,'' said Miguel Díaz, an analyst with the Center for Strategic International Studies. ``Can you imagine if U.S. Democrats met in southeast Washington to keep white Republicans from voting? Those are the street-gutter politics this government has been playing.''

The challenge now, Díaz said, is for the international community, particularly Washington, to figure out how to handle democratically elected leaders who become undemocratic.
Chávez's legal shortcuts were no secret to Venezuelan voters. He led a failed military coup in 1992 and after his first election in 1998 called for a constitutional convention that his supporters dominated and produced a document almost tailor-made to his leftist populist ideology.

The new Constitution also allowed the president and his allies to put their backers in charge of independent powers like the Supreme Court and the prosecutor's office. After the 2002 coup attempt, he also dismissed dozens of senior officers and replaced them with loyalists.


And regarding civil rights I remember certain dicators taking this tack .
More than 350 protesters remain in police custody, opposition leaders said. Venezuela's Caracas Stock Exchange called on police to respect the civil rights of its vice president, who is among them.

The Caracas Stock Exchange said in a statement that Vice President Santiago Monteverde was arrested Sunday during protests, and hasn't been released. The exchange said it ``deplores'' the treatment of Monteverde who heads La Primera stock brokerage.
[ snip]
Venezuela suspended the right of the country's 24 million people to carry firearms in a bid to damp violence that has claimed the lives of at least 10 protesters in the last week, Defense Minister General Jorge Garcia said

The government's action came as opponents of Chavez sought international support to pressure the country's electoral council to hold a recall referendum on Chavez. Venezuela's Ambassador to the UN Milos Alcalay resigned yesterday, saying Chavez is failing to respect the country's laws and constitution.

``We want to guarantee the safety of all people,'' Garcia said in a televised news conference.


Classic. Shoot and jail protestors and then take away their right to protect themselves -for their own good, of course.

Reagrding the "slimy" Castro comparison. Let's see:

Lefty military leader - check
Atempts military coup - check (My wife was there for that one, BTW)
Anti-American rheotoric - check
Anti-capitalist - check
Uses power to take private propoerty - check
Attempt to Use power to silence opposition - check
Conspires with and supports every enemy of US - check.

Besides that, maybe it's not such a good comparison.



 
26nerveclinic
      ID: 40151616
      Tue, Mar 09, 2004, 12:54
Baldwin Post 12... Your explanation I expect would be that there are evil people behind the scene pulling the strings.

My explanation for most of the examples above are economic. These good soldiers provided American Corporations with slave labor. They kept their populace in line, with a work force making almost nothing, providing fruit and clothing companies etc. with extremely cheap labor and products.

They litterally killed workers who tried to start labor unions...and we aren't talking American Unions, we are talking unions that wanted more then .25 centas an hour for their workers.

The dicatators, all American allies, and in some cases American installed, and propped up with our military, used death squads, torture and ruthless dictatorial rule to keep the cheap labor pleniful under the guise of stopping the spread of socialism.

Usually at the root of all evil there are economic answers.

Your explanation is Satan, mine is simple greed.
 
27Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 14826271
      Sun, Apr 18, 2004, 10:54
Were the consequences not so serious, the history of elections in Chavez's Venezuela would be the perfect comic parody of the totalitarian dream: you can hold as many elections as you want, whenever you want, so long as you are not allowed to vote against the incumbent.
 
28Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, May 31, 2004, 10:42
Chavez ready to face recall vote

Chavez, who has often predicted the recall drive would fail, urged both sides to accept the outcome.

``Let´s hope we all accept the results,´´ Chavez said after meeting with Carter. ``I would gladly face a referendum ... If they defeat me, I´ll leave.´´

Kudos to the much maligned Jimmy Carter for being involved in this most serious and delicate situation. While it remains to be seen whether Chavez is sincere in his latest proclomation to abide by the results of the recall, it would be the height of cynicism to believe that diplomatic efforts to diffuse the tense situation should not be exhausted before other remedies are suggested. The CIA needs to stand down and let the democratic process have an opportunity in Venezuela.
 
29Baldwin
      ID: 5544766
      Mon, May 31, 2004, 13:05
How much voter intimidation before the 'election' isn't legitimate? If you ask me it's already over the edge.
 
30Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 09:41
The Recall Vote

Venezuelan leftist President Hugo Chavez on Monday declared victory in a referendum on his rule but the opposition called the results "a gigantic fraud."


There is nothing in the story to indicate a gigantic fraud, and it would seem to be way too early in the process to make that claim. If Chavez is retained, I would expect President Bush to congratulate him and make a statement hopeful of improved relations between the governments. I won't hold my breath.
 
31Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Mon, Aug 16, 2004, 10:21
WooHoo! Way to go Hugo!
 
32Myboyjack
      ID: 06141920
      Thu, Aug 19, 2004, 09:01
Evidence of an electoral fraud is growing


CARACAS The perception that a massive electronic fraud led to President Hugo Chávez's mandate not being cut short in the recall referendum on Sunday is rapidly gaining ground in Venezuela. All exit polls carried out on the day had given the opposition an advantage of between 12 percent and 19 percent. But preliminary results announced by the government-controlled National Electoral Council at 3:30 a.m. gave Chávez 58.2 percent of the vote, against 41.7 percent for the opposition.
.
At first people scratched their heads in disbelief, including many Chávez supporters, but accepted these figures after César Gaviria, secretary general of the Organization of American States, and former President Jimmy Carter said their own quick counts coincided with the electoral council's figures. Two days after the referendum, however, evidence is growing that the software of the touch-screen voting machines had been tampered with.


Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that Jimmy Carter is about to be made the stooge of yet another Lefty autocrat?

If this was, say, Florida, and every exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush by 10 points, and then the Jeb Bush controlled electronic ballots showed Bush winning by 17 points - would you guys on the Chavez bandwagon just shrug and go on about your business if Howard Baker said he thought it was a good count? Just checking.

If the Venezualens want a Lefty Socialist government - that's what they should get; my wife worked several years there and the disparity between the poor and the rich is appalling in a country that has such resources. It's the Saudi Arabia of our hemishpere in that respect. But tp think that a wannabe dictator like Chavez is the answer just because he spouts Marxist phrases and gives out free bread and games around election time - yo guys are seriously deluded.
 
33Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 12:08
Chavez meddling, socialist radicals and narcotraffic/terrorists topple the Bolivian government.
 
34Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 09:29
Chavez offers heating oil to American poor
Aug. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered heating oil to poor communities in the U.S. to bypass the middlemen he claims inflate prices.

Chavez, 51, made the offer during his weekly television broadcast, ``Alo Presidente.'' Chavez said 140 communities or groups have requested energy aid from the South American country since Chavez said earlier this week that Venezuela could help poor families in the U.S.

``We want to help the poorest communities in the U.S.,'' Chavez said. ``There are people who die from the cold in winter in the U.S.''

Citgo Petroleum Corp., the U.S. unit of Petroleos de Venezuela SA, may coordinate distribution, Energy and Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez said. Citgo has eight refineries in the U.S., as well as 14,000 affiliated gasoline stations.

Chavez and Ramirez didn't say how much heating oil might be offered.

``There is poverty in the U.S.,'' Chavez said. ``People freeze to death, people starve to death.''

Chavez, who became president in 1999 after winning the presidency in a landslide, has repeatedly attacked multinational oil companies as one of the causes of rising energy prices. Venezuela, the world's fifth-largest oil exporter, sends more than 60 percent of its 2 million barrels a day of oil exports to the U.S.

Chavez also said 150,000 Americans will be offered medical care to correct vision problems.
 
35Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 09:30
Chicago Tribune says the amount will be 66,000 barrels per day.
 
36Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 10:46
Chavez meddling

How can you possibly mention Chavez and meddling in the same sentence without mentioning US involvement in failed 2002 coup?

The April 11, 2002 military coup in Venezuela was supported by the United States government. As early as last June, American military attaches had been in touch with members of the Venezuelan military to examine the possibility of a coup. During the coup, U.S military were stationed at the Colombia-Venezuela border to provide support, and to evacuate U.S. citizens if there were problems. According to intelligence analyst, Wayne Madsen, the CIA actively organized the coup. "The CIA provided Special Operations Group personnel, headed by a lieutenant colonel on loan from the U.S. Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, to help organize the coup against Chavez,” he said.

I think we can all agree that Chavez is not the guy we'd like to have running Venezuela. His brash , uncompromising style and anti-American positions do not lend themselves to stability in the hemisphere.
However, in order to understand some semblance of balance, the Bush administration has done nothing but raise the level of hostility from the day he and the neocons took office.
The 70% approval rating Chavez enjoys from the citizens of Venezuela is probably more a result of his "macho cowboy stand up against the bully United States" image than any national policies he's implemented. Unfortunately, Robertson's comments and Jackson's grandstanding will only help solidify that image.
 
37biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 11:08
I don't know whether Chavez is good for his people (they apparently think so, which should be all that matters), but the U.S. has a pretty standard formula for leaders of smaller countries that we have some interest in:

1) Try to bribe them. If that doesn't work,
2) Try to depose them. If that doesn't work,
3) Try to assassinate them.

Our government is working the advertising side of things, right now, (and chavez may be helping their cause), so that when chavez does end up dead, few of our citizenry will care that much.
 
38Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 17:49
I think we can all agree that Chavez is not the guy we'd like to have running Venezuela.

Wrong. I like Hugo. In fact, I'd take Hugo over George W. Bush in a heartbeat!

The 70% approval rating Chavez enjoys from the citizens of Venezuela is probably more a result of his "macho cowboy stand up against the bully United States" image than any national policies he's implemented.

Again wrong. Hugo is a populist and the vast majority of Venezuelans are poor. Viva Hugo.
 
39biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 17:53
He's playing up the class-warfare thing with a vengeance! Offering the poor in the U.S. cheap heating oil, by bypassing the big oil companies! Nice.
 
40Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:08
While the vast majority are poor, Chavez had to resort to massive vote fraud and intimidation to win, assuming he did get a majority of the vote. Not a given. Chavez is no man of the people. He is nothing more than another Latin American dictator who chose option C as his vehicle to power.
 
41biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:13
On Aug. 27, Venezuelan electoral authorities confirmed President Hugo Chavez's victory in the referendum. Though there were accusations of fraud by the opposition, the final official results totaled 59.25 percent for Chavez, 40.74 percent against. The Carter Center participated in an audit of the votes (see final report above) and concluded the results were accurate.


Carter Center

Good enough for me, though probably not for the good freaks at World Net Daily or the capitalist scum supported by our CIA.
 
42Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:21
Yeah well that 10% margin is easier to come by when you are willing and able to fire and starve the people who vote against you.
 
43biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:27
That's a 20% margin. I think I would have heard about a few million people starving in Venezuela.
 
44bibA
      ID: 437352810
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:27
Boldwin, if what you say were true and he was able to perpetrate a massive fraud and manipulate the vote, why would he also need to resort to intimidation?

Or maybe you are just covering all the bases? If one weren't such a sceptic, he might think that you would accuse Chavez of being a cruel dictator who was only out to screw the people solely because he was a socialist.
 
45Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:28
ah leave 'em alone. Now that Arafat is gone and Castro's getting senile the Lefties need someone new to make a fool of themselves in support of.

Carter, fresh off his blessing of North Korean food distibution and tour of Cuba.....
 
46biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:33
There's a big difference between supporting him and thinking it may not be swell U.S. policy to assassinate him.
 
47Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:33
the Lefties need someone new to make a fool of themselves in support of.

Well there's certainly no room for us in the RObertson camp.
 
48Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:35
There's a big difference between supporting him and thinking it may not be swell U.S. policy to assassinate him.

Who wants to assasinate him? Even the doofus, RObertson has backed off that.
 
49Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:37
I think I would have heard about a few million people starving in Venezuela.

You don't have to starve everyone to intimidate them - right? Read any of the links in this thread.
 
50Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:39
As for the election - read post 32 in this thread - from last year.
 
51Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:54
Now that Arafat is gone and Castro's getting senile the Lefties need someone new to make a fool of themselves in support of.

Or the right needs someone new to villify. Too bad they didn't pick Robert Mugabe, who is creating a crisis in Zimbabwe far worse than Chavez. But then, not much oil in Zimbabwe.
 
52biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:55
If you think there was fraud in the election (and I have no idea. I haven't seen the exit polls and I don't know anything about the credibility of IHT other than a quick editorial insisting Katrina was a direct result of global warming - mixed cred. at best) you should address that. You shouldn't try to topple him with a coup.

I don't know how many provisos I have to write to not get labeled a Chavez supporter, but I'll double it next time.
 
53Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:57
try again - if I'm "the Right" then I've been long on record regarding Mugabe - and I agree he's far worse than Chavez. He's not in our hemispehere though.
 
54Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 18:58
You shouldn't try to topple him with a coup

Who are you talkig to?
 
55biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 19:00
The US government.
 
56Uncle Sam
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 19:03
WE READ EVRYTHING YOU WRITE.
 
57biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 19:05
The article is gone, but aren't elections handled by secret ballot?

How can you intimidate people to vote a certain way, if that's the case?

Are you saying Jimmy Carter's a closet marxist, or a dictator-lover, and he is part of the fraud?
 
58biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 19:05
Don't eat me, Mr. Carnivore!

 
59Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 19:07
dictator-lover,

Find one he didn't.
 
60biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 19:13
I don't think he was a big fan of Somosa.
 
61Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Aug 30, 2005, 19:42
I just don't feel like having this conversation, at least not until after the drafts. Research the pressure they brought to bear on people if you think it was just ordinary. Read about just how hard Chavez fought against having elections at all and you will get some idea of how unpopular he is.
 
62katietx
      ID: 2578917
      Thu, Sep 01, 2005, 20:11
Anyone wondering where Jesse Jackson is amid the tragedy of the hurricane? He's visiting Mr. Chavez. What a guy!
 
63Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Sep 02, 2005, 10:53
Chavez offers gas, water to the US

Make your own caption here.
 
64Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Sep 02, 2005, 11:22
Listening to NPR and the normally exquisite Diane Rheem show, you would think the sole issue with Katrina was it's effect on Bush's popularity.

That is one stomach turning nauseating radio station today.
 
65Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, Aug 13, 2006, 11:41
Hey, when US companies choose to ignor the reasoned requests of US Senators to offer low-cost fuel to America's poor, fear not, Venezula will come to the rescue.
Venezuela's state-owned oil company wants to offer deep discounts on home heating oil to American Indian tribes in the Pacific Northwest, The Herald of Everett reported Saturday. Chavez said the program brings a better life to the poorest and most vulnerable people. "This program fulfills a promise I made to the people of the United States, and it is a gift warmly given to our American friends," Chavez said. Citgo officials say the program is a response to a letter that U.S. lawmakers - including Sens. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash.; Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.; John Kerry, D-Mass.; and others - sent to oil companies, seeking relief from high fuel costs for America's poor. "The only company that responded was Citgo,"

Hey, there is at least one democratically elected leader in the Western Hemisphere that does soemthing for America's poor.
 
66Matt S
      ID: 33644316
      Sun, Aug 13, 2006, 20:54
How is Fox going to write that one?

"Brutal communist dictator offers olive branch to impoverished Americans"

Raegan is rolling in his grave.
 
67Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Aug 13, 2006, 22:40
It is people like Zen and Matt, that allow dictators like Castro and wannabe dictators like Chavez take control.
 
68Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 00:41
You are right, Jag. Back in the ninties, when I was Emperor of Venezula, I was chilling with my homies passing the bong around when Hugo suggested he wanted to be "El Jeffe". He made an impassioned pitch, he obviously had been working on it for weeks.

"Yeah, Venezula is losing its appeal and the buds down here suck ass."

It was at the moment that I allowed this wannabe to take control. You obviously have been studying South American modern history, good on ya.
 
69Matt S
      ID: 45621302
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 01:06
Hey Zen, I think Jag might be on to something. You think he knows about our plan for worldwide communist/muslim/homosexual domination?

Quick! Emergency meeting at the collective marijuana plantation!

 
70Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 06:36
I can understand peon dirt farmers being lured to these mini-tyrants, but when psuedo-intellects do it under the guise of being progressive, I find it disgusting.
 
71Boxman
      ID: 34751126
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 06:48
I find it disgusting.

I find it frightening actually because the pseudo-intellects are more capable people.
 
72Matt S
      ID: 18635717
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 11:59
What's frightening is that non-intellects are currently governing.
 
73bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 12:01
The US should overthrow that tyrant, and bring democracy to the Venazuelans!
 
74Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 12:14
lol
 
75 beaufort
      ID: 187151413
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 14:17
Is there much doubt that Chavez will be running Cuba, either directly or thru Raul?
 
76Perm Dude
      ID: 15730148
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 14:24
Sure. There's also doubt that any other country's leader will do so as well.
 
77Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sat, May 19, 2007, 20:16
Chavez to shut down opposition TV

Chavez has vowed not to renew RCTV's broadcast license when it expires on May 27. It will be replaced by a state channel showing programs that promote the values of Chavez's self-styled leftist revolution. He accuses RCTV's saucy soap operas of spreading immorality.

Analysts have identified a critical media as one of the principal safeguards against the president building a Cuban-style state in the OPEC nation.....

 
78Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Sat, May 19, 2007, 21:36
Yes, Chavez is off the deep end, drunk with power and plunging Venezuela deeper and deeper into an authoritarian nightmare. I must say, MBJ, you were right on this one.
 
79Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Jul 24, 2007, 21:40
Criticise me and you're out, Chávez warns foreigners

President Hugo Chávez has announced that foreigners who visit Venezuela and criticise his government will be escorted to the airport and expelled.
In a televised address the Venezuelan leader ordered cabinet ministers to monitor statements by visitors and deport them if they "denigrated" his leadership.

"How long are we going to allow a person - from any country in the world - to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" he said. "No foreigner, whoever he may be, can come here and attack us. Whoever comes, we must remove him from the country. Here is your bag, sir, go."


LOL. That quote by Chavez may have simply demonstrate that someone has finally perfected the often misunderstood Art of the Ironic.

 
80Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Jul 25, 2007, 18:40
MBJ

You assume these guys understand the irony of which you speak but I expect they are blind to it...

Some people just don't get irony:
put away for more than 20-year sentences for the crime of giving Cubans access to books and other publications forbidden in state libraries...independent librarians were, however, at the center of a protest at an American Library Association conference in Washington in June. These protesters are themselves long-term members of the ALA and call themselves Freadomistas, in contrast with Fidelistas (Castro admirers) on the ALA's governing council. That council steadfastly refuses to demand the immediate release of Cuban freedom-to-read librarians, whom Amnesty International designates "prisoners of conscience." Indeed, the council voted down an amendment calling for their release.

Bearing such signs as "Book Burning Is NOT A solution to Cuba's Energy Problems" and "Ray Bradbury (author of "Fahrenheit 451") Says: 'Free The Jailed Librarians,' " the Freadomistas also handed out fliers that quoted the core ALA policy: "The American Library Association believes that freedom of expression is an inalienable human right... vital to the resistance of oppression... and the principles of freedom of expression should be applied by libraries and librarians throughout the world." Another ALA policy cited on the flyers "deplores the destruction of libraries, library collections and property." Yet, as I have reported previously, the ALA ignores the fact that Cuban court documents (validated by Amnesty International and the Organization of American States) reveal that the entire collections of at least six independent libraries were ordered destroyed.

Among the burned publications are
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (not surprisingly); a book on Martin Luther King Jr.; the U.S. Constitution; and a volume by Jose Marti, the father of Cuban independence, who was killed by the Spanish during that struggle to free Cuba.

Despite these facts, the delegates to the June ALA conference were told in the flyer that the American Library Association, on its Web site article "Book Burning in the 21st Century," repeatedly refuses to post the lists of books Mr. Castro burned after the Independent Libraries were started in 1998. They were started in a courageous and perilous answer to Mr. Castro's shameless lie that year at the International Book Fair in Havana: "In Cuba, there are no prohibited books, only those we do not have the money to buy."

One passerby wearing an official ALA identification tag looked at the Freadomistas signs, refused to take a flyer and snarled, "I am on the other side."
 
81Wilmer McLean
      ID: 36639260
      Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 01:59
I came across this link as tops in google for: chavez democrats.

Take it as you will.

Hugo Chavez supports Saddam Hussein and terrorism. Several congressional Democrats support Chavez. What's wrong with this picture?

by Thor Halvorssen
03/11/2003 12:00:00 AM

Late last year, 16 U.S. congressmen voiced their approval for Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez. Representatives Barney Frank, John Conyers, Chaka Fattah, Jan Schakowsky, Jose Serrano, and others complained in a letter to President Bush that the United States was not adequately protecting Chavez against a groundswell of internal opposition to his increasingly authoritarian rule--an upsurge that might lead to his ouster. Elected to power in 1998, Lt. Col. Chavez has hijacked democracy in Venezuela and is openly moving the country toward totalitarianism. Beyond Venezuela's borders, he celebrates, protects, and does business with terrorists.

A day after the September 11 terrorist attacks, President Chavez declared that "The United States brought the attacks upon itself, for their arrogant imperialist foreign policy." Chavez also described the U.S. military response to bin Laden as "terrorism," claiming that he saw no difference between the invasion of Afghanistan and the September 11 terrorist attacks.

While the United States considers Saddam Hussein a threat to world peace, Chavez has hailed Saddam as his "brother" and business "partner." In the past two years Chavez has continued to cultivate relationships with the governments listed in the State Department's roll of state sponsors of terrorism--he has been particularly vocal in his support for the Iranian regime.

Last December a high-level Venezuelan military defector gave sworn testimony that terrorist links exist between al Qaeda and the Chavez government. The defector, President Chavez's personal pilot, alleges that one operation involved the transfer of close to $1 million in cash to Osama bin Laden.

In January, Judicial Watch, a public-interest legal organization based in Washington, filed a $100 million suit against Hugo Chavez on behalf of a victim and survivor of the September 11th terrorist attacks. The lawsuit alleges that Chavez provided material, financial, and other support and assistance to the al Qaeda terror network.

In February, a Venezuelan Muslim, Hasil Mohammed Rahaham-Alan, was detained in London's Gatwick airport for stashing a grenade in his luggage. He was apprehended after disembarking from a British Airways flight that originated in Caracas. The British Mail reported that al Qaeda operates a training camp on the Venezuelan island of Margarita. The Venezuelan ambassador in London has obtained a "legal stop" preventing the newspaper from commenting on the article.

...
 
82Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Sep 18, 2007, 22:01
Chavez set to take over any private schools that aren't up to brainwashing kids


meanwhile...

one college-level syllabus obtained by The Associated Press shows some premedical students already have a recommended reading list including Karl Marx's ``Das Kapital'' and Fidel Castro's speeches, alongside traditional subjects like biology and chemistry.

of course if this story is any indication of the work of MDs more versed in "Das Kapital" than Gray's, then it won't take long for Chavez' supporters to all be dead:

CARACAS (Reuters) - A Venezuelan man who had been declared dead woke up in the morgue in excruciating pain after medical examiners began their autopsy.

Carlos Camejo, 33, was declared dead after a highway accident and taken to the morgue, where examiners began an autopsy only to realize something was amiss when he started bleeding. They quickly sought to stitch up the incision on his face.



"Something's amiss" Doya think there, Dr Quinn?

 
83Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Sep 28, 2007, 21:19


Don't let The Man get you down, bro.
 
84Perm Dude
      ID: 31102109
      Sun, Nov 11, 2007, 00:23
King of Spain tells Chavez to "shut up" (text & video in Spanish)

Story in English
 
85Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 18:35
Hugo Chavez:“This is not a dictatorship but something more complex: the tyranny of popularity.”

Despite MBJ's protests to the contrary, Hugo Chavez is not a dictator, he is the rightfully elected president of Venezuela. He is hugely popular with the poor, as his 6 hour work days and state pensions for street vendors and maid programs have uplifted millions. The wealthy and foreign investors hate the man, but they can't out vote him. If you support democracy, you have to support Chavez, until he is voted out.
 
86Perm Dude
      ID: 251071711
      Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 19:06
If you support democracy, you have to support Chavez, until he is voted out.

Uh, no you don't. I thought that kind of Republican tactic went out with the last election, SZ.
 
87Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 19:24
If you support democracy, you have to support Chavez, until he is voted out.

Please.

Hitler was democratically elected.....
 
88bibA
      ID: 1510351315
      Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 19:58
Hitler was a mass murderer who attacked other countries. Are you desirous that the US go to war with Venezuela? Is their leader really comparable to Hitler?
 
89Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 20:00
Discrimination based on sexual orientation would also be prohibited. Many of the items are vaguely worded, however, like one giving the president the power to create “communal cities.”

Since MBJ brought up Hitler, Zen, can you ask your buddy Chavez if the term "communal cities" is 21st Century speak for "ghetto"?
 
90Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 20:37
biba - Yeah - because I used the example of Hitler to show that not everyone who once upon a time won a popular election is a standard bearer for democracy- that means I'm desirous that the US go to war with Venezuela. Exactly. You got me pegged 100%. Bravo. Congrats on being the Evel Knievel of logical long jumpers. Hopefully, we'll start bombing soon.

Also, Hitler had a funny mustache and since Chavez doesn't that means he must not be a dictator. Right?
 
91Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 22:39
Since MBJ brought up Hitler, Zen, can you ask your buddy Chavez if the term "communal cities" is 21st Century speak for "ghetto"?

What could Venezualan communal cities (whatever Chavez intends by that) have to do with Nazi ghettos? Who would Chavez seek to segregate and isolate into Nazi style ghettos?
 
92Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Mon, Nov 19, 2007, 01:05
Yeah, I don't think Hugo has any designs on Columbia, Brazil or anyone else. Nor does he want to exterminate Jews or anyone else.

Personally, I despise the fact that he has restricted the press, amongst other things. Otherwise, I like the direction he is taking Venezuela. Freedom advocates in the US want to allow the fifty states to become fifty "laboratories of freedom", to figure out there own way of getting things done. Shouldn't we let the people of Venezuela take their own chances at success or failure? It disgusts me that my government had a hand in trying to overthrown this man.

Boxman, the answer is "no", not even close.
 
93Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Nov 19, 2007, 06:57
Look Zen, Mushsharaff's hand picked Court says he's democratically elected too - just like Chavez' hand=picked cronies upeld his last election scam
 
94Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Nov 19, 2007, 11:49
MBJ - Are you really trying to claim that Hugo was not elected by the popular vote, that the courts pulled a Florida 2000 and handed him the election? Really? I have never heard anyone claim that he did not garner the most votes.
 
95Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Mon, Nov 19, 2007, 13:11
From the WSJ Online...

Academics' Study
Backs Fraud Claim
In Chavez Election
By DAVID LUHNOW in Mexico City and JOSE DE CORDOBA in Miami
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 7, 2004

Two Venezuelan academics claim to have found statistical evidence of fraud in last month's referendum on President Hugo Chavez, fueling the opposition's claims of a rigged vote and raising the possibility that despite Mr. Chavez's victory, the country's tense standoff will continue.

The claims were made Sunday by Ricardo Hausmann, a professor at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government and former chief economist at the Inter-American Development Bank, and Roberto Rigobon, a professor of applied economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management.

The pair issued a report that tried to measure the possibility that the vote was clean using two separate analyses of the official results. In both cases, they said, the chances of a clean vote were less than one in 100.

Members of a civic group called Sumate that organized the referendum, which Mr. Chavez won by a 59% to 41% margin, seized on the study to suggest Mr. Chavez had won by tampering with the electronic-voting machines used in the contest. "We don't think the truth about the referendum has been revealed yet," Alejandro Plaz, a spokesman for Sumate, told reporters in presenting Mr. Hausmann's study Sunday. Sumate requested help from the academics in analyzing the referendum data but didn't pay for the study.

Mr. Chavez's government reacted with disbelief to the claims, saying the opposition's previous claims of fraud had so far proved incorrect. Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said members of the Atlanta-based Carter Center and the Organization of American States had already validated the result. "No one believes in their theories anymore because three weeks have gone by and they haven't been able to prove anything," Mr. Rangel said.

Members of the Carter Center and the OAS were unreachable for comment yesterday. But both organizations have consistently stood by their findings in the past weeks and watched as other theories of fraud fell short under scrutiny.

The results of the study, however, prompted some independent experts on computer voting to call on the Venezuelan government to open up all aspects of the election -- including electronic codes from voting machines -- to public scrutiny.

"The Hausmann/Rigobon study is more credible than many of the other allegations being thrown around," said Aviel Rubin, a computer-science professor at Johns Hopkins University who has warned about security flaws with electronic voting. Mr. Rubin recently conducted a study of opposition claims that machines were rigged to limit the number of votes against Mr. Chavez and concluded the claims were highly unlikely.

"I would encourage the Venezuelan government to open up all aspects of the election to public inspection, not just to selected observers. That includes all of the paper ballots, the source code in the voting machines, the random generators ... that were used to pick the sites to audit," he said in an e-mail interview.

The study by Messrs. Hausmann and Rigobon suggested the government may have tampered with only some of the machines, leaving others clean for observers to audit. They said the sample used for the audit, which was carried out days after the election, wasn't randomly chosen and limited to the "clean" machines.

The study says the computer that determined which ballot boxes were to be subjected to a recount belonged to Venezuelan election officials. However, the Carter Center's Jennifer McCoy has said the group tested and verified the computer program used to select the sample.

The study compared the votes obtained by the opposition during the recall vote with the signatures gathered in November 2003 requesting the referendum. For the recounted votes, the correlation between the number of "yes" votes matched the 2003 petition numbers at a rate that was 10% higher than in the ballot boxes that weren't recounted. They calculate the probability of this taking place by chance at less than 1%.

The government's sample recount "was not a random sample, and I can say that with 99% confidence," Mr. Hausmann said in a telephone interview.

The academics used another technique to look for suspicious patterns in the results, using the 2003 petition and an exit poll on the day of the vote as a vague measure of a voter's intention. Because both measures are imperfect for different reasons, the academics argued, the measures should make different mistakes in predicting the final result.

But the academics found that each method had similar margins of error when compared with the official results, something that would happen only one in 100 times without fraud, they argued.
 
96Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Nov 19, 2007, 14:01
The merits of that study is an argument I am not interested in making. That study was of the "referendum" vote. I am speaking of the popular vote for President, two different elections. I was asking MBJ if he believed Hugo was placed into the presidency like GW in 2000, as post 93 implied.

There were stronger "statistical anomalies" in the Ohio 2004 Presidential election than those described in your post, Boxman.
 
97Perm Dude
      ID: 331041209
      Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 19:08
The wealthy and foreign investors hate the man...
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 3210222722
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 23:46
The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez, today threatened to strip the country's industrialists of their assets if they continued to oppose his indefinite presidency.

Chávez faces a vote at the weekend on his proposals to change 69 articles of the constitution, including scrapping the limit on the number of terms a president can serve.
 
99Baldwin
      ID: 4610171922
      Thu, Nov 29, 2007, 17:07
SZ

I used to link you to a blog following events in that country and they were very specific in the ways in which the election was being rigged and voters were being intimidated. I guess you just didn't want to read anything negative about Hugo so you avoided reading it.
 
100Myboyjack
      ID: 41111838
      Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 09:21
Chavez loses bid to be Dictator for life

And the big news is that, for now, he's accepting the results. I'll believe when 2012 rolls around and he steps down gracefully. Amazing considering he had already declared himself the winner yesterday afternoon.
 
101Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Wed, Dec 12, 2007, 19:03
Joe Kennedey, moronic enabler, speads Chavez' propoganda

But Kennedy's been in the charity oil business for years, and he knows that Chavista crude isn't the only solution for high oil prices hitting the poor. Oil can be bought, and he could get the cash just as easily for his program by hitting up some foundation to buy the oil.

What this is really about is advancing Chavez's U.S. agenda, a big part of which is to blame U.S. oil companies for high oil prices.

High oil prices do squeeze the poor. But oil companies do not control them. Dictators such as Chavez do. Eighty percent of the world's oil is held by inefficient state oil companies. Venezuela is one of the worst, producing its oil with scab labor since a 2003 strike, and it has also confiscated at least $1 billion in U.S. oil assets since then. Some industry analysts estimate that Chavez adds as much as a third of the cost to world oil prices. No wonder he wants someone else, like Big Oil, blamed.

Now he's got a willing dupe. Besides browbeating oil companies, Kennedy also brought in politicians shilling for Chavez as well.

Massachusetts Rep. Bill Delahunt denounced Big Oil's "record profits" and condemned the companies for not participating in Kennedy's politically loaded program. This comes on the heels of his refusal to vote in Congress for more domestic oil or natural gas production, which could bring down energy costs for all.

Oil companies, in fact, give far more to charity than Kennedy's $25 million program. In 2006, Chevron gave $90.8 million. British Petroleum gave $106.7 million. Exxon Mobil gave $138.6 million.

 
102Perm Dude
      ID: 37117129
      Wed, Dec 12, 2007, 19:34
Eighty percent of the world's oil is held by inefficient state oil companies.

Hmmm. Sounds more like an unthought-through rant against states running non-governmental companies than anything else. And the charity comparison is just bad: Comparing a single donation of charitable oil against other company's total donations for the year (some of which aren't altogether charitable) isn't a valid one.

I'm with you, MBJ, on Hugo Chavez. But that article doesn't advance the real point very much. It is a screed against Chavez' ability to get people to listen to him (i.e., a complaint againt Chavez' public relations job, rather than a complaint against Chavez' poor policies and politics).
 
103Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jan 21, 2008, 17:24
Hugo pulling a new page from the dictator handbook: Harrass Jews


 
104Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, Jan 21, 2008, 18:20
Personally, I despise the fact that he has restricted the press, amongst other things. Otherwise, I like the direction he is taking Venezuela.

--Seattle Zen
 
105Wilmer McLean
      ID: 441094
      Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 05:15
In Venezuela, Faith in Chávez Starts to Wane

NY Times
February 9, 2008


Venezuelans waited to buy subsidized food last month in San Antonio de Tachira. The nation is facing food shortages.


These should be the best of times for Venezuela, blessed with the largest conventional oil reserves outside the Middle East and oil prices near record highs. But this country’s economic and social problems have become so acute lately that President Hugo Chávez is facing an unusual onslaught of criticism, even from his own supporters, about his management of the country.

In a rare turnabout, it is Mr. Chávez’s opponents who appear to have the political winds at their backs as they reverse policies of abstention and prepare dozens of candidates for pivotal regional elections. Mr. Chávez, for perhaps the first time since a recall vote in 2004, is increasingly on the defensive as his efforts to advance Venezuela toward socialism are seen as failing to address a growing list of worries like violent crime and shortages of basic foods.

...

In fact, some economists see a slow-burning economic unraveling playing out in a country flush with oil revenues. But as Mr. Chávez embarks on his 10th year in power, it is becoming harder for him to blame previous governments for the malaise.

...
 
106Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 22:06
Chavez doing just a bang up job bringing prosperity to the masses with his oil riches

If officials discover that companies sit on goods for months to later sell them at inflated prices, they "should be seized and taken under government control," Mr. Chavez said.

He called Polar a "clear example" of a business that could be taken over.

The Venezuelan leader's threats came as the country struggles with sporadic shortages of some basic foods, including sugar, cooking oil, milk, black beans, eggs and chicken.


 
107Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Mar 03, 2008, 20:15
Colombia: Evidence suggests Chavez gave FARC $300M


No wonder Chavez is so eager to go to the mattresses for FARC; he's evidently been funding these terrorists for some time. Big surprise.
 
108Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, Mar 03, 2008, 20:38
Personally, I despise the fact that he has restricted the press, amongst other things. Otherwise, I like the direction he is taking Venezuela.

--Seattle Zen
 
109Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Mar 04, 2008, 13:03
Venezuela is in far better shape right now than if you and your no government, "free market" craziness was in charge, Boxman.

You understand that the positions you argue are far more radical than those of Hugo, right?
 
110Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Mar 04, 2008, 13:08
I said "no government"?

Toke another look at that one again Zen.
 
111Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Tue, Mar 04, 2008, 17:31
"No wonder Chavez is so eager to go to the mattresses for FARC; he's evidently been funding these terrorists for some time. Big surprise."

Wow, funding a group of South-American guerillas, now that's a novel concept if I've ever heard of one... I wonder why the US hasn't come up with such an idea.

...

No, wait a minute. They have, haven't they?
 
112Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 05:37
So you like communist guerillas, communist dictators and heck, gulag death camps worked so great in asia that we should import them to the Americas.

Any other sharing and caring for us 'Truth'?
 
113Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 15:02
"Asia" belongs to the current discussion because _______. Please fill in the gap. Slightly beyond the point here, aren't we? To help us get back on the track, Let me re-quote #107 and then add some further commentary:

No wonder Chavez is so eager to go to the mattresses for FARC; he's evidently been funding these terrorists for some time. Big surprise.

That makes it sound as if funding FARC was somehow a huge crime. What's your take on funding terrorists such as the Contras, then? Apples and apples and all that.

Btw, all the communist entities the US ever (openly) fought against in Asia are still up 'n runnin'. "Mission accomplished."
 
114Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:04
Btw, all the communist entities the US ever (openly) fought against in Asia are still up 'n runnin'. "Mission accomplished."

Tell that to the South Koreans who don't have to live in the hellhole to the North.

That makes it sound as if funding FARC was somehow a huge crime.

It is a huge crime. Even Chavez knows that which is why you see him clawing for a modicum of plausible deniabilty. Is there a crime that FARC has not committed? Murder. Kidnapping. Child rape. Blah, blah blah.....

But let's see: the US funded some anti-Commie fighters is the 80's so no one can complain about Chavez financing some murdering, raping thugs whose only mission is the overrthrow of a democratically elected government in Columbia. I get it.
 
115Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:20
So supporting murdering, kidnapping, child-raping thugs might or might not be ok, depending on their perceived political stance (as in, left or right)? I get it.
 
116Perm Dude
      ID: 3925889
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:27
Is that what South Korea was about? How about Vietnam? They turned out OK.
 
117Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:29
You don't have to dig very deep to find reports of similar Contra human rights atrocities committed against innocents.
 
118Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:39
#116 In what way did Vietnam "turn out ok", considering a.), how many people got killed/maimed/you name it (this category includes the Agent Orange -victims in the following generation etc.) and b.), how they went on to stay communist (i.e. the polar opposite of turning out ok according to many)?
 
119Perm Dude
      ID: 3925889
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:43
A bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think?

"Look at how many people were killed when we went in there and killed them all!"

Vietnam turned out fine, in the end, despite our own involvement. I realize that "communism" = "not OK" to you but, given the choice between thousands dying in a war to stop communinsm and actual communism in Vietnam, I think the Vietnamese are far better off under the current government.

After all, it was this "not OK" government that went in and stopped the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia while we were content to just sit by and set them sow the killing fields with literally millions of people.

 
120Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 16:53
The point I was coming to was correctly understood by #117, Vietnam has nawt to do with the topic at hand (supporting South-/Central-American guerillas, that is).
 
121Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 17:04
And by the way, I don't know how you figure "communism = not ok" for me, I'm all for nations' right to choose their own path with no pre-set rules or models of "best practice" that are highly contextual at best and can not be imported from outside anyway. I think I don't need to name any names, suffice it so say there are many who still believe there was lot to be accomplished in Vietnam and that going in was the correct decision.
 
122Perm Dude
      ID: 3925889
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 17:07
b.), how they went on to stay communist (i.e. the polar opposite of turning out ok according to many)

So you are putting up talking points with which you disagree?

I think I don't need to name any names,

Suffice to say to you don't actually need to do anything if you are going to put forth some mystical "some people say" arguments.
 
123Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 17:14
So according to you, pretty much everyone agree that going to Vietnam was a failure? Interesting viewpoint, that.

So you are putting up talking points with which you disagree?

Yes. Can I? I got confused with this: "Is that what South Korea was about? How about Vietnam? They turned out OK." How does any of this have anything to do with anything, in the context of the topic at hand? You wrote this seemingly as a reply to

So supporting murdering, kidnapping, child-raping thugs might or might not be ok, depending on their perceived political stance (as in, left or right)? I get it.

I fail to see the relevance here, considering the actual talking-point.
 
124Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 22:16
Vietnam turned out fine, in the end, despite our own involvement. I realize that "communism" = "not OK" to you but, given the choice between thousands dying in a war to stop communinsm and actual communism in Vietnam, I think the Vietnamese are far better off under the current government.

After all, it was this "not OK" government that went in and stopped the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia while we were content to just sit by and set them sow the killing fields with literally millions of people.
- PD

"Vietnam turned out fine, in the end" - PD ...

Unless you had to suffer the world's lowest standard of living IF you were fortunate enuff to avoid being put in the death camps [which had the same motto Hitler's death camps had over the front gate].

BTW the only way out of the death camps was by picking some other poor innocent victim of communism, calling him out and accusing him of being an enemy of the people, and then at the cost of someone else's life you might buy your way out.

Just hunky dory, PD. Peaches and cream. Why can't everyone have such a happy ending? Every liberal at least.

"while we were content to just sit by and set them sow the killing fields with literally millions of people" - PD

"We" weren't content. It is the 'peace' crowd who are content with every communist killing field and gulag and death camp. Don't you dare lay that at the feet of the people who fought communism. After people like you disarmed our allies in S.V.N. [took the bullets right out of their guns] there wasn't much point in asking you to go along with saving the Cambodians.

 
125Perm Dude
      ID: 3925889
      Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 23:40
What nonsense. You wrap yourself around every revisionist history which makes the Right feel good, Baldwin, all the while decrying revisionism as a tool of the left.

The Khmer Rouge came to power after illegal bombing of their country for years by the US, and were removed by Vietnamese troops in 1979.

Of course, you want it both ways: The "peace" crowd is both pro-Vietnam and pro-killing fields. You can't even remain internally consistent.

What a wacko you've turned into. Your hatred of the "left" has warped you into a bitter old man, muttering about what might have been if only people had listened to you.
 
126Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Sun, Mar 09, 2008, 12:10
Funny how 'incursions' into Cambodia were cause for hysteria from the left when Nixon did it but great when communists did it. Go to the memorial to the millions killed and sneer at the domino theory just for old time's sake.

Darkly hilarious that you think the bombing of communists in Cambodia was the problem and not communists in Cambodia being the problem.
 
127Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, May 19, 2008, 21:52
Despite being rebuffed by the voters of Venezuale who rejected a referendum to give the president sweeping constitutional power over the economy and public institutions ,Chavez seizes more power anyway.

His plan to starve Venzeuala and make it a haven for investment for human rights abusers, China, Iran and Cuba seems to be working magnificently. First he had to run out the Swiss, French and American companies to make way for his Who's Who of tyranical regimes. Well done, Hugo and his apologists.

One significant measure is foreign investment, which has hit record levels in several other Latin American countries but has fallen in Venezuela.

As foreign interests reacted to Mr. Chávez’s socialist-inspired changes, including nationalizations last year of major electricity, telephone and oil companies, outside investment dropped to just $500 million in 2007. In contrast, Peru, with a population comparable to Venezuela’s 27 million, received $5.4 billion in foreign investment last year.

Still, Mr. Chávez is pressing ahead with the takeovers of companies big and small. These include Sidor, a large, Argentine-controlled steel maker; cement companies owned by Mexican, Swiss and French investors; more than 30 sugar plantations; a large dairy products company; and a sprawling cattle estate on the southern plains.



But Mr. Chávez is wagering that he can fill the gap, particularly in foreign investment, through new ventures with allies like Cuba and Iran.

For instance, after a three-day visit here last month by a high-level Iranian delegation, Venezuela and Iran agreed to build a manufacturing plant for tractor parts and a cement factory. Similarly, Venezuela announced the creation this month of two companies with Cuban partners in the fishing and pork industries.

Potentially of greater impact, China and Venezuela inaugurated the headquarters here of a $6 billion fund this month to carry out infrastructure projects. Beijing is putting $4 billion into the fund, part of an effort by Mr. Chávez to export more oil to China in exchange for more Chinese investment in Venezuela.


Kick out all the companies from democratic countries and bring in the totalitarian regimes. He has never been about democracy.

 
128Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, May 19, 2008, 21:57
Personally, I despise the fact that he has restricted the press, amongst other things. Otherwise, I like the direction he is taking Venezuela.

--Seattle Zen
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Mon, May 19, 2008, 22:00
Can Suddan and N Korea be far behind?
 
130Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:33
Maxine Waters: Hugo Chavez with a smaller vocabulary. Hilarious video.
 
131biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:36
Took you long enough! ;)

Read her quote last night, and was sure I'd see it here this morning.

 
132Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:39
Been busy.
 
133Perm Dude
      ID: 3345239
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 13:41
... by a mainstream American politician...

In no way is she mainstream!
 
134Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 19:35
The look on the other's faces over her inability to come up with the word 'nationalize' was priceless.
 
135Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 19:37
Then again it is a comfort the concept was that foreign to her I guess. Wouldn't want that on the tip of congressional tongues.
 
136Perm Dude
      ID: 20746619
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 20:51
Has Venezuela had enough of Chavez' power grabs?
 
137Perm Dude
      ID: 111571622
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 12:56
Hugo Chevez: Dictator for life.
 
138Seattle Zen
      ID: 151371711
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:01
It's rather ridiculous to claim that someone who has to run for reelection is a "dictator for life", PD.

Is that what you call Mayor Bloomburg?
 
139Perm Dude
      ID: 111571622
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:10
You're right--anyone who bullies his political opponents, harrasses the media when he doesn't get favorable coverage (including his first attempts to get rid of term limits), spends hours of state television time every week giving speeches on himself, and clearly conflates his own political fortunes with his country is hardly dictorial.

My bad.
 
140Seattle Zen
      ID: 151371711
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 16:20
So, you were talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
 
141Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 13:55
Gingrich: handshake will become 'propaganda'

Meredith Vieira: What do you take away from the president's visit to Latin America? What do you think his goals were and in your estimation, was it a successful trip?

Newt Gingrich: Well I think first of all the importance of the Chavez smile and handshake is illustrated by your report just now on the jump in the book sales from number 54,000 to number 2. Everywhere in Latin America, enemies of America are going to use the picture of Chavez smiling and being with the president as proof that Chavez is now legitimate, that he's acceptable. He is a dictatorial figure. He is an anti-American figure.

But what I find distressing is that this administration is opposed to looking for oil off shore, but the president bows to the Saudi King. The president is friends with the Venezuela, whose biggest impact on us is that they sell us a lot of oil.

And I just think there's a shallowness about how they analyze this. It does matter to the world if the United States tolerates a vicious anti-American propaganda campaign and then smiles and greets the person who's systematically been anti-American for his entire career.

MV: But Newt you heard what the president said, that he does not believe that the man's hand will endanger the strategic interests of the United States. So you disagree with that.

NG: First of all I think stopping us from [inaudible] oil is dangerous to our strategic interest. But I think we've had weakness in the last two weeks with North Korea, we have weakness with Iran, we have bowing to the Saudi King, we have weakness with Hamas, we have weakness with Cuba - and Cuba has not released a single political prisoner. And I think we have to recognize that if the administration wants to look at facts, that the record is even worse than the smiles and the handshakes.

MV: But do you think he should not be trying to mend relationships with other world leaders?

NG: How do you mend relationships with somebody who hates your country, who actively calls for the destruction of your country and who wants to undermine you?

MV: We certainly have mended relationships with countries that have hated us in the past. Russia comes to mind, China comes to mind.

NG: But we didn't rush over, smile and greet Russian dictators. We understood who they were. Yeah, you could talk, I'm not against him talking to Chavez, but you have to talk to Chavez in a cold and distant way because Chavez openly, constantly attacks the United States. Just as the Iranians are building a nuclear weapon every day. And smiling at them doesn't slow them down a bit.

MV: You have called the Obama Administration, "the most radical left-wing administration in American history with a fantasy foreign policy that has no connection to reality." Do you believe we are headed straight for a major foreign policy crisis?

NG: I think inevitably, sooner or later, we're going to have a big problem. And what I said is based on what I just said to you. The North Koreans fire a missile: nothing happens. The Iranians announce their 7300th centrifuge to build nuclear weapons: nothing happens. Hamas fires another missile at Israel: nothing happens. Cuba releases zero prisoners: we make nice to Cuba.

There's no sign that Chavez has become any less anti-American. And I think we have to be honest about the dangers in the world. I am for doing methodically and calmly as Ronald Reagan did, the things that will work. But I'm not for deluding myself about whether or not words and smiles are a substitute for real strategies.
History: Gingrich is an ass.






 
143Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 13:55








 
144Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:06
For the record I stole the idea for those posts from this Daily Kos video. I could have just posted the video but it was fairly lazily produced and I felt a transcript and some bold font would better make the point.
 
145Perm Dude
      ID: 4032209
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:07
Josh Marshall with a good post on this point.

The whole idea seems so deeply silly to me that it's hard to know how exactly to even comment on it. But I'm struck once again by the sort of psychologically arrested mentality and extreme emotional insecurity that seems at work in the minds of many foreign policy conservatives -- or more specifically, so as not to paint with too broad a brush, those of the neo-conish flavor.
 
146Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:37
there's definitely an isolationist sort of mentality going on. instead of try to communicate with our "enemies" and perhaps bring them into a fold - or at least an understanding - the preference is to keep them as far away as possible, then bomb them when the mood strikes.

btw, it's clear those Reagan photos are doctored. :o)
 
147Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:50
I don't think they are necessarily advocating isolationism. They are just pissed off that Obama is being, gasp, civil. Conservatives are just angry, unfocused people these days. Instead of seeing how Obama's strategy will play out. Cuba will be a good example since we've tried doing it the other way with absolutely not positive results. Instead, they'd prefer we just continue the George W. Bush strategy of discrediting nations from afar (e.g. "Axis of Evil") and using military force as we please. Where has that gotten us? It wasn't Obama's strategy that have gotten Iranian, Venezuelan, Cuban, and Korean relations where they are today, but Gingrich seems content to blame him for it. Gingrich perhaps thinks that Cuba will eventually relent and release prisoners? That we find some more troops and invade Iran or Korea? Who knows...
 
148boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 14:51
I want that fur coat...
 
149Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 15:11
that fur coat...

Sure looks like a real hoot they must have been having, huh?

Errr I mean... look at how cold and distant Ford's behavior toward Brezhnev was...
 
150Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 15:52
wanna bet ZERO shots of top-shelf vodka were shared... ;o)
 
151Seattle Zen
      ID: 133132011
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 16:03
Brezhnev was a MF'ing PIMP!
 
152Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 16:04
There's a caption contest to be had here.
 
153Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 17:05
Seattle Zen - It was Ford's coat, which he gave to Brezhnev at the end of their summit after spying Brezhnev admiring it.

Seriously. Imagine the reaction if Obama had literally GIVEN THE COAT OFF HIS BACK to Chavez.

Newt might have avoided making such asinine comments on live national TV thanks to the stroke he'd have had over the weekend.
 
154Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 13:58
I will be amazed if the Hugo Chavez lovers around here are willing to embrace these tactics.

And if they are we're in even worse shape even earlier than I expected.
 
155Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 10:06

M-I-C-K-E-Y

Venezuela Crumbling.
Venezuela's economy is in trouble despite the country's huge oil reserves. Blackouts plague major cities. Its inflation rate is among the world's highest. Private enterprise has been so hammered, the World Bank says, that Venezuela is forced to import almost everything it needs.

Critics say a lack of investment, coupled with government ineptitude, left Venezuela without the electrical generation capacity it needs. The government blames a brutal drought.

Whatever the reason, cities such as San Cristobal go dark every day — sometimes for four hours or more, as the government uses rolling blackouts to save energy.

This is not the way it was supposed to be. Venezuela is one of the world's great energy powers. Its oil reserves are among the world's largest and its hydroelectric plants are among the most potent.

But these days, Venezuela is being left behind: The rest of Latin America is expected to grow at a healthy rate this year, according to the World Bank.

Guerra, the former Central Bank economist, says the government must reconsider its policies — and drop the statist socialist model that Chavez adopted.

"The government has to consider that the socialist point of view is not so good for the economy," Guerra says. "Chavez believes in the old-fashioned socialism. This kind of socialism is dead, definitely dead, it doesn't apply to any country in the world."
 
156Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 14, 2010, 19:14
He may believe in "old fashioned socialism," but he's an old-fashioned autocrat.
 
158Perm Dude
      ID: 56832185
      Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 14:33
Is the cult over?
 
159Tree
      ID: 12248513
      Tue, Mar 05, 2013, 17:08
Chavez reportedly has died.
 
160Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 13:20
I watched both NBC and CBS's national newscasts last night and the level of exactness between the reports of Chavez's death was striking. Both pieces came on ten minutes into the show, both pieces used two or more of the exact same pieces of video footage, both used the clip of Hugo calling GW "a donkey". Both of them showed shots of him with: Ahmadinejad, Assad, Saddam and, of course, Castro. If you were new to the US, you would have thought that both of these pieces were created by the same person or group of people. So predictable.
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 26256718
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 19:57
Hugo Chavez once said “being rich is bad, it’s inhuman.” He also claimed “capitalism leads us straight to hell.”

He leaves his family an estate estimated at two billion dollars. His fellow top nomenclatura helped themselves to the rest of an estimated 100 billion skimmed of the top of the Venezuela oil industry.
We believe that organized bolivarian criminal groups within the Chávez administration have subtracted around $100 billion out of the nearly $1 trillion in oil income made by PDVSA since 1999.” - According to Jerry Brewer, president of Criminal Justice International Associates (CJIA)
Liberals who are among the world's leading hypocrisy detectors were effusive in their praise of Chavez in death.
 
164Tree
      ID: 4822717
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 21:06
Hugo Chavez once said “being rich is bad, it’s inhuman.” He also claimed “capitalism leads us straight to hell.”

wow. way to plagiarize, word-for-word, Malkin.

 
165Boldwin
      ID: 26256718
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 21:53
That Malkin can really turn a phrase.
 
166sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 22:59
Liberals who are among the world's leading hypocrisy detectors were effusive in their praise of Chavez in death.

Isnt that odd? Looking through here, I see not one piece of praise, let alone "effusive in praise", for the late Chavez. How did Ronald Reagan put it? Oh yes...

"there you go again..."
 
167Boldwin
      ID: 382586
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 07:29
If only you guys were the only libs in the world.
 
168sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 08:19
You didnt qualify your earlier statement B. You made the blanket allegation, that Libs have been effusive in their praise since his death. I merely pointed out, that on this forum which is largely populated BY Libs, no such praise has been made, at all...none. Illustrating the clear falseness of your contention.
 
169Boldwin
      ID: 2924816
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 20:14
"There is a limit beyond which material goods don’t make us happier."

Somewhere north of two billion apparently.
 
170sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 20:41
then, you are in favor of taxing at 100%, any income by one whose wealth approached that level?
 
171Boldwin
      ID: 2924816
      Fri, Mar 08, 2013, 22:24
Yes, I am in favor of taxing marxists 100% of their income over that which they consider too much.
 
172Boldwin
      ID: 31251917
      Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 20:43
He's at 6% nationally. How high does he rank here? About 50%?
 
173Boldwin
      ID: 31251917
      Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 21:38
When you spend $950,000 on golf weekend with Tiger Woods you may not deserve cred for feelin' the poor.