Forum: pol
Page 1620
Subject: Marijuana in the news


  Posted by: Seattle Zen - [17231110] Fri, Mar 19, 2004, 19:19



Madman, are you behind this?

Advocates for using marijuana as a doctor-prescribed pain reliever finally got the legal OK on Friday to begin collecting signatures to put an initiated act on the Nov. 2 election ballot.

After more than four months of rejecting the proposed act over ambiguous language, Attorney General Mike Beebe agreed to the latest wording of the popular name of "The Arkansas Medical Marijuana Act" and its ballot title.

With the approval of the wording, Campbell's group now has a relatively short time to gather signatures needed to place the proposed act on the ballot. The alliance must turn in at least 64,456 signatures of registered Arkansas voters on its petition to the secretary of state by July 2.


Piece of cake. We had to gather 17,200 signatures from voters in just one city.

Seattle Zen
"Imagine the outcry if IRS staff traveled the country arguing against tax cuts at the state level! Drug laws, like virtually all criminal laws, are wholly the province of states. Neither Congress nor any administration had the authority to create and fund a federal drug-war cheerleading agency." - Ron Paul (R)Texas
 
1Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Fri, Mar 19, 2004, 19:25
Well, I'd imagine the city of Seattle would be easier to get signatures on a MJ initiative. Arkansas as a state is only about 5 times the population of Seattle, and the largest ten cities combined in Arkansas have populations of only a bit more than just Seattle alone.

So the state of Arkansas needs to have signatures average, across the state, a little less than than what Seattle did in the city. Not easy at all. Not impossible, but a tough road.

pd
 
2katietx
      ID: 37002410
      Sat, Mar 20, 2004, 10:21
a tough road.

A very true state if you've ever traveled through Arkansas. "-)
 
3katietx
      ID: 37002410
      Sat, Mar 20, 2004, 10:21
Ooops - meant to say "statement" - too early.
 
4Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Sat, Mar 20, 2004, 10:37
Marijuana in the news:

Bad witch Belinda Stronach opposes marijuana decriminalization.
I oppose the decriminalization of marijuana. This is a question of public safety and public health."
--Launch speech, Jan. 20, 2004

"Launch speech" means she made a point of saying this in her speech announcing that she would be a candidate.

Yet she favours gay marriage. Go figure.

Toral
 
5Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Sat, Mar 20, 2004, 12:11
Just saw this ... unfortunately, the website of the group behind the petition drive appears to be down. I'll try again later.

I would think that getting 65K signatures could be quite difficult down here. But it will be interesting to follow. I'll update when I know more.
 
6Sludge
      Leader
      ID: 25919714
      Sat, Mar 20, 2004, 14:15
I would think that getting 65K signatures could be quite difficult down here.

*knock* *knock* *knock*
(Whispered) "Quick Jim, put that out. Open a window." (Loudly) "Just a minute!"

(Door opens, and a shirtless and barefoot guy wearing blue jeans peers outside) "Hello?"

"Hi sir, we're collecting signatures for..."

"I don't want any!"

"But, sir, perhaps you don't understand. We're trying to collect 65,000 signatures so that we can get The Arkansas Medical Marijuana Act on the ballot."

"Perhaps you don't understand mister. I ain't signin' your damn paper so that my name can be plastered all over God's creation as some kind of dope head. Now get the Hell outta here before ah sick mah dawg on you."

(Volunteer backs away to leave.)

"Light 'er back up, Jim."

I've known more than a few...
 
7Seattle Zen
      ID: 17231110
      Sat, Mar 20, 2004, 15:07
LMAO.

Change is slow.
 
8CJ@Work
      ID: 35104577
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 10:02
I can only say this. If we legalize Mar then why in the hell do I have to be told it is the law weither I wear my seat belt or not. Children I understand, but this law that I have to wear my seatbelt is a crock of horse......! Then why isn't riding a motercycle outlawed. Damn politicians gouging our pocketbooks. And I am not denying the fact seatbelts can save lives. So can side airbags! So can Roll cages.

So if they can legalize a known drug that impairs ones thinking then damn it I want that money I spent on my 2 seatbelt tickets refunded ASAP!
 
9Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 10:06
You mean that alcohol is now legal to drink??

Oh, wait, you're talking about a different drug.
 
10Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 10:44
come on CJ - when you've already got drugs like alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine, all of which have an impact on how our brains and bodies work, what rational is there to keep Mary Jane illegal?
 
11CJ@Work
      ID: 35104577
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 10:59
Tree,
C'mon you even made the case......Why ad another!
 
12Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 11:12
Im still trying to figeure out the seatbelt/marijuana connection.
 
13CJ@Work
      ID: 35104577
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 11:15
Okay let me explain then..........THey are sayign go ahead and make Marij legal, but we have a law that says you have to wear a seatbelt because it is for your own protection.

 
14Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 11:18
OK, I still don't get it. I personally question whether motorists should be forced to wear seatbelts, but there is no questioning that seatbelts save a good or even great number of lives every year. What does criminalized marijuana have to do with safety or protection?
 
15Seattle Zen
      ID: 17231110
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 11:58
CJ@Work

Haven't you been layed off yet? ;)
 
16Sludge
      ID: 26250109
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 12:04
If we legalize Mar then why in the hell do I have to be told it is the law weither I wear my seat belt or not.

Because a human body flying out of the windshield during a high-speed auto crash becomes a deadly projectile. So it's not just for your protection, it's for the protection of the others that you slammed into at 80 MPH.
 
17biliruben
      ID: 5061711
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 12:14
I am personally a bit skeptical of the projectile finding. Have you read the study, Sludge? I haven't had a chance, but I can think of a host of difficult to measure confounders related to both seatbelt use and accident severity that could explain that 20% increased risk.
 
18Sludge
      ID: 26250109
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 12:29
Confounders, conschmounders. Who needs to worry about measuring those?
 
19Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 14:16
If seatbelts are required to prevent projectiles, why isn't there a law requiring all large objects to be belted inside a car? I can carry a set of javelins in the car without them being belted down (short ones that will fit, say, in my hatchback). Try to tell me that I'm more of a projectile than a javelin.
 
20Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 14:23
Madman
A 165 lb man probably has a better chance at making it through the windshield and maintaning some deadly force as a projectile than some number of javelins, but I think I agree with your greater point.
 
21Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 30792616
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 14:23
With that pointy head of yours, Brainiac, you probably are.

;)
 
22Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 16:57
Ok, brainiacs, OK. I am a weapon, and I admit it. Road warriors better watch out, I might launch myself at you at any moment.

Regardless, I think the projectile argument is, at best, one of those post-hoc rationalizations. We have a law on the books, let's try to figure out a way to justify it. Somehow, that's especially appropriate given the thread's original topic.
 
23Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 17:46
We have a law on the books, let's try to figure out a way to justify it.

Seatbelt laws need some special justification? I don't think so. I thot Sludge was just pointing out to the libertines -- my word, not his -- who consider only their own personal well-being that their conduct endangered others as well.

Toral
 
24Sludge
      ID: 26250109
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 18:04
Actually, I was just making it up; being facetious. I didn't think that there was a snowball's chance in Hell that someone would take it seriously. (Yes, that is a mild reference to the "Greatest American Hero" thread.)

Believe it or not, I'm flying through air,
I never thought I could feel so free.
Flying away on a wing and a prayer.
Who could it be?
Believe it or not it's just me (flying through the window of my SUV).
 
25Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 18:08
sludge -- well, it didn't take much for me to fall for it. Seemed to make as much or more sense than any other argument I've heard for seatbelt laws.

GAH ... now there was a great show. A guy wearing a red pair stockings with flying abilities and with a perm hairdo. Classic 1980s. Now THAT was a dangerous human projectile.
 
26biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 18:14
I wouldn't have given it too much thought except that a study came a month or 3 ago stating that those in the car with an unbelted person had a 20% greater chance of dying than if their wasn't an unbelted person. Nothing to do with flying through windshields, however.

Also, I loved the GMH. If you didn't, you are a pinko, commie bastard who hates freedom and wants the terrorists to win. So there.
 
27Sludge
      ID: 26250109
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 18:16
GMH? "Greatest 'Merican Hero"?
 
28Sludge
      ID: 26250109
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 18:17
Did that study take into account the lack of independence between the passengers in the car?
 
29biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 18:22
Oops. GAH! I think I was confusing him with my second favorite show "Greatest Middle-Eastern Hero." ;)

I have no idea what the study took into account (like I said, I didn't read the paper), but the haters of freedom (to fly through the windshield) everywhere have taken up the ball and run with it. It is a sad retort to those (like myself) who don't put much wieght in the "You can't kill/critical injury yourself - my insurance premiums will go up!" argument.

 
30biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Mon, Mar 22, 2004, 18:41
Sorry - I couldn't find the study. Usually the articles that make headlines are grabbed from JAMA or NEJM. I'm not sure why pubmed search isn't finding it.

I did, however, find a nice study stating the "fatalism" was associated with a decreased seatbelt use in South Africa, and another study in Abu Dhabi where my GMH (or perhaps a recent seatbelt law, though I doubt it) has saved many crash survivors from "moderate to fatal injuries." You'd think they could differentiate between moderate and fatal.
 
31KnicksFan
      ID: 49142719
      Tue, Mar 23, 2004, 16:27
Uh oh, this looks like it could be made into one of those "Harmless?" anti-pot ads:

Jose Emilio Suarez, a Spaniard accused of providing explosives for the attacks, was charged with 190 counts of murder, 1,430 counts of attempted murder, robbery and collaborating or belonging to a terrorist organization. ABC said he was paid $8,600 and a quantity of hashish for providing 242 pounds of dynamite and detonators.



Scene: Suarez is talking to an Al-Qaeda operative in Madrid.

Suarez: No way hombre. I'm not gonna give you explosives. I don't care how much money you have.

Al Qaeda: Very well, infidel. I will find someone else to carry out the work of Allah. Before I go, do you know of a place where I can smoke this hashish?

Suarez: Whoa, hashish? Why didn't you say so?! So about those explosives....

End scene.
 
32Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Sun, Mar 28, 2004, 13:18
Calif. Home Power Bill Prompts Pot Probe
 
33CJ@Work
      ID: 35104577
      Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 11:36
15 Seattle Zen
2-3 more weeks. And My last week I am going to vacation in Texas.
24 Sludge
Oh that was great!


C'mon guys I was using the law already there about Seatbelts to make a point that allowing drugs to be legal would contradict the reason we made the seatbelt law. Safety! Great then don't allow other things in our society to increase the risk of an accident. Allowing joints to be legal woudl increase accidents. If you have a law to wear seatbelts that is great, but the real cure is reducing the number of accidents!
 
34Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 11:40
CJ

I'll take a que from Baldwin here and quote the Princess Bride

You truly have a dizzing intellect.
 
35Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 12:46
Allowing joints to be legal woudl increase accidents.

presumeably, DUI is still DUI, whether it be alcohol or pot, so your argument holds no water in that regards. no one's saying we should legalize Driving Under the Influence...
 
36Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 12:49
...and so you clearly cannot choose the wine in front of you!
 
37biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 15:44
Lopping off our arms and gauging out all our eyes would decrease car accidents too...
 
38Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 15:50
Lopping off our arms and gauging out all our eyes would decrease car accidents too...

raises hand, Arnold Dingfelder Horshack style...oh oh oh oh!! i know!! banning cars outright would decrease car accidents!!!! if cars are outlawed, only outlaws will have cars!!! let's ban them!!
 
39Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Tue, Mar 30, 2004, 20:27
Tri-state area gurupies need to see this: The Marijuana-Logues

Saw these guys in Seattle and died. They are really funny, I promise this isn't some two-bit Cheech & Chong ripoff, these guys are great.

The Arkansas Alliance website regarding the MMJ initiative that started this thread.

What would Arkansas' medical marijuana initiative do?

Allow terminally and seriously ill patients who find relief from marijuana to use it with their doctors' approval.

Protect these seriously ill patients from arrest and prosecution for the simple act of taking their medicine.

Permit qualifying patients or their caregivers to cultivate their own marijuana for their medical use, with limits on the amount they could possess.

Create registry identification cards, so that law enforcement officials could easily tell who was a registered patient, and establish penalties for false statements and fraudulent ID cards.

Allow patients and their caregivers who are arrested to discuss their medical use in court.

Keep commonsense restrictions on the medical use of marijuana, including prohibitions on public use of marijuana and driving under the influence of marijuana.
 
40Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Fri, May 07, 2004, 16:51
Lies and the lazy reporters who repeat them.

We've had this issue arise in many other threads: Newspapers who reprint press released, donor-driven research "results" as news.

"Abuse and dependence rise as pot becomes more potent," (oh, really?)

None of these stories chose to mention a salient fact: The "potent pot" hypothesis is pure speculation. As Mitch Earleywine, University of Southern California associate professor of psychology and author of "Understanding Marijuana" ( Oxford University Press, 2002 ) notes, there is no scientific evidence that marijuana that is more potent leads to greater levels of dependence. Indeed the JAMA article makes no claim that any such evidence exists.

What is striking about all of these stories is their similarity to the National Institute on Drug Abuse's press release. None of these esteemed newspapers or wire services chose to quote even a single expert or advocate skeptical of the government line. None of them seems to have considered the possibility that our government might spin the data in order to match its Drug War policies.
 
41Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Jun 11, 2004, 09:14
Police to let England fans smoke dope
 
42walk
      Leader
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Jun 11, 2004, 10:29
Wow, I gotta move to Portugal. What freedom.

I loved the way this thread segue'd to the safety belt topic based on a very bizarre analogy between legalizing pot and having laws requiring safety belt usage.

I do both, but not while I'm driving (aaaah, but those were the daze....)

..."my friend, I thought they'd never end
but then I got old
and now have too many head rushes."

Post #31, knicksfan. LOL. Awesome baby!

I know there is one, but am not learned enough to articulate it properly, a connection between the anti-legislated of pot and the cigarette lobby, right? Decriminalized weed could/would potentially cut into the tobacco growers reveneues, no?

I remember my trip to Amsterdam back in 1987 fondly. With a great Euro city back drop, buying and using this herb in a cafe and feeling free to enjoy. Pot menus! With amazing chocolate (space bon-bons) and cakes (space cakes) laced with pot. It was a head's dream.

Next up: this marijuanalogues gig. I saw a preview on TV one night, and realize that this is not to be missed. I promise I'll wear my seatbelt in the taxi ride downtown (alright, I take the subway, but I do wear my seatbelt in the cabs all the time).

- walk
 
43Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Fri, Jun 11, 2004, 12:48
I strongly urge everyone to see the Marijuanalogues. It will slay you.
 
44Tortfeasor
      Sustainer
      ID: 37948287
      Fri, Jun 11, 2004, 16:09
Walk 42-

I have heard the argument about the banning of marijuana being linked to the cigarette lobby, and while I think in fact the cigarette lobby probably is against the legalization of marijuana, I'm not sure that I buy the argument that there's actually any logical connection between the two.

The two drugs (thc and nicotine) have an entirely different effect. Pot is generally used for the "high," and while I think you could argue that cigarettes are also, everyone who's used pot knows it's not the same high. Way stronger, obviously, with pot. You can't smoke pot, and for example, go back inside to work like you can with a cigarette. (Well I guess you could, if your job is surfing the internet, listening to music, watching television, and eating.)

My guess would be that more opposition to the legalization of marijuana would be from the pharmaceutical lobby. JMHO. The "relaxation drugs" are their realm, and my guess is pot would likely take a good little slice of their business.

This may have been discussed elsewhere on this forum previously, I haven't searched, so I apologize if I'm bringing up old debates.
 
45biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Fri, Jun 11, 2004, 16:22
We've got a find a way to lend our support to the "Cheeto's Lobby". With a bit of "grass" roots (e'hem) support, big Pharma wouldn't stand a chance!
 
46Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Fri, Jun 11, 2004, 20:20
You can't smoke pot, and for example, go back inside to work like you can with a cigarette. (Well I guess you could, if your job is surfing the internet, listening to music, watching television, and eating.)

Speak for yourself, Tortfeasor :)

What, then, is so great about cigarettes? Hmm, let's see, you don't get high, you get seriously addicted, it ruins your health, lung capacity, red blood cell count... yeah, they are harmless. Seriously, what the hell inspires ANYONE to light up tobacco?

Don't apologize about asking questions about marijuana in this forum, we rarely talk about it and we appreciate the pleasant change of topic :)
 
47Seattle Zen
      ID: 53252259
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 21:17
Disappointing, but hopefully not fatal, news regarding the initial post in this thread:

MPP pulls funding for the Arkansas Medical Marijuana initiative.

The national organization supporting the Arkansas Alliance for Medical Marijuana announced last week that it's pulling out of the state effort, citing the slim chances that a proposed initiative would qualify for the ballot.

But state supporters, dismayed by a costly campaign that may have produced fewer petition signatures than needed, announced Monday they'll pick up where the national campaign left off.

"We can't stop now. This is farther than we've ever been before," said Denele Campbell of West Fork, treasurer for the alliance.

The alliance turned in about 67,000 signatures on July 2 to get the proposed law on the Nov. 2 ballot. With at least 64,456 signatures of registered voters needed to qualify, national organizers said it seemed unlikely that enough valid signatures would be identified in the batch already submitted.

So Campbell said the alliance will use the time remaining -- at least a month -- to try to come up with 20,000 or 30,000 more signatures to replace any that may be deemed invalid. She said she remains convinced that, if given the chance, voters would approve the initiative that would legalize marijuana use for people with "debilitating medical conditions."

Sounds like there may have been some signature gathering shananigans - some unanswered questions as to what happened to the $180,000.
 
48Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, Jul 19, 2004, 12:25
Thank God there were't mandatory minimums in 1984

I hate (and I don't use that word very much) judges who think it's their job to make law; but, within their discretion, enacting justice, is a judges's chief duty. Lucky for this guy, this judge had that discretion. Mandatory minmum sentences are evil.

Rene Alzugaray-Cira, 62, who had been held in Miami's Federal Detention Center since he turned himself in last month, could have been sentenced to 10 years.

"Go home to your daughter and your little grandbabies and live out the rest of your life," Senior U.S. District Judge James Lawrence King said Thursday in sentencing Alzugaray to time served.

Alzugaray was arrested in 1984 after he was found on a boat loaded with marijuana. He pleaded guilty -- though in court this week he said he was never a smuggler -- but skipped his sentencing.[snip]

For two decades, Alzugaray built lobster traps and picked vegetables in Florida. But in the past year, he reunited with his adult daughter, who urged him to turn himself in to ease his troubled conscience.

The prosecution and defense had recommended Alzugaray receive a two-year sentence. But King warmed to Alzugaray's case when assistant public defender Stewart Abrams said his client "came to the courthouse door and said, 'I did something wrong. I want to make amends."'

Because the federal court system had no sentencing guidelines when Alzugaray pleaded guilty, King had leeway to determine the sentence.



 
49Tree
      ID: 76471215
      Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 17:58
Scientists Say Marijuana Research Blocked

WASHINGTON - The government is violating federal law by obstructing medical marijuana research, scientists contend in lawsuits seeking faster action on applications to grow the drug.
 
50Seattle Zen
      ID: 5881169
      Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 01:15
Unfortunately, the Arkansas initiative mentioned in the first post failed to get on the ballot.

Much, MUCH better news: It is no longer illegal to possess up to four ounces of marijuana in Alaska!

In 1990, voters passed an initiative on a 55 to 44 percent tally making it illegal to possess any amount of marijuana, but last year the appeals court not only ruled voters didn't have the authority to change the state constitution, but defined 4 ounces or less of marijuana as permissible for personal use at home.

Alaska is in the 9th Circuit, which recently made a ruling on a Commerce Clause case regarding medical marijuana in California. The Ninth declared that if the marijuana is not traded across state lines, the Federal Government cannot prohibit care providers from growing and dispensing an herb that California has declared legal for medical patients.

Alaska's Supreme Court has ruled that adults have the right to possess up to four ounces of pot. Therefore, not even the Feds can arrest you for pot in Alaska unless you are smuggling it in or out of Alaska. Sweet!
 
51Myboyjack
      ID: 06141920
      Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 08:48
So is Alaska going to become the next big Spring Break destination of choice?
 
52Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 09:03
I'm booking my reservations now...
 
53biliruben
      ID: 406171015
      Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 10:46
I believe the Feds are appealing the ninth curcuit's decision to the US supreme court this next session.
 
54Seattle Zen
      ID: 5881169
      Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 11:04
Yes they are and it should be the most eagerly anticipated cases in a while. Let's see if Scalia and crew have the balls to overthrow the Controlled Substances Act.
 
55Myboyjack
      ID: 1474368
      Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 12:54
That's going to be pretty interesting. They've been hedging around at scaling back the overly expansive prevalent view of the Commerce Clause for some time now. Here's their big chance to hav some liberals on their side when they do it.

'Course those same liberals may regret going along with a less expansive Commerce Clause interprtation when the next challnge to a federal civil rights or environmental regulation come along.
 
56Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Sep 27, 2004, 21:29


Vote Yes on 2!

Alaskans are not satisfied that their Supreme Court has made it legal for adults to possess marijuana in their homes, they want to be able to buy it at stores like alcohol. And the way they plan on doing it is by using classic Drug War scare-tatic ads!

More teenagers smoke marijuana than cigarettes!

The people at Regulate Marijuana in Alaska are running a very tight, professional campaign.

Marijuana Legalization Group Tries a New Strategy; Pro-pot side offers 'professional' ads, well-chosen speakers.

The statewide campaign, which includes television and radio spots and a push to get supporters registered to vote by the Oct. 3 deadline, has some opponents worried.

"The legalizers have done a good job this time," said former U.S. Attorney Wev Shea, who backed a 1990 initiative to criminalize pot in Alaska and was also a key spokesman against legalization in 2000. "Have you seen the commercials? ... They're really professional."

There does not appear to be any organized opposition to Ballot Measure 2, another worry for initiative foes.


This initiative is being very closely watched throughout the marijuana activist community. If successful, look for something similar along the West Coast. Very exciting!
 
57Baldwin
      ID: 168272710
      Mon, Sep 27, 2004, 21:41
Exciting? I can't even muster a golf-clap for this. Go grab a bag of cookies and watch a sunset drug-free for once.
 
58Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Sep 27, 2004, 21:48
Bag of cookies? That's unhealthy, Baldy, what do you take me for? I hiked Granite Mountain yesterday, 3800 feet of elevation gain in four miles, herb and drug free. Go rearrange some deck chairs yourself ;)
 
59Baldwin
      ID: 168272710
      Mon, Sep 27, 2004, 21:56
So who needs MJ?
 
60yankeeh8tr
      ID: 49923113
      Sat, Oct 02, 2004, 16:12
Researchers at Stanford University have found that a type of brain cells called LTS cells can make cannabinoids. report
 
61Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Oct 04, 2004, 00:30

If the voters plant it, will it grow?

Tim Burgess, U.S. Attorney for Alaska, won't say what he'd do if Proposition 2 becomes law, but said he does have the power to put his foot down. Burgess, Renkes and John Novak, state chief assistant District Attorney, go to great pains to say the government isn't in the business of busting people for simple possession. The government is going after dealers, they say.

But numbers from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports belie those statements. From 1998 to 2002, there were 5,695 marijuana arrests in Alaska. Of those arrests, only 599 were for selling and growing pot. In other words, about 90 percent of the arrests were for possession only.


This is a great read.
 
62nerveclinic
      ID: 88592016
      Mon, Oct 04, 2004, 19:18
Mayor Daley of Chicago just made a statement during a discussion with a reporter that we should simply write tickets for minor possesion and not require a court appearence.

He said it's wasting too much valuable police time to prosecute these cases and sit in court when the judges were just giving small fines and community service.
 
63Myboyjack
      ID: 06141920
      Mon, Oct 04, 2004, 19:28
I was killing time today, talking to some police officers. They were describing how rarely they cite people they find in possession of MJ; basically if the person is honest and not an a$$ they just make them throw out the weed and go on with their day, because it's not worth anyone's time to make a MJ arrest or file a complaint. We got to talking and they were all very much of the opinion that their jobs would be easier if MJ was legal and alchohol was prohibited. True dat.

I'm getting ready to start my 11th year and I still have put no one in jail for possession of MJ. It's my own private rebellion against a seriously screwed up and hypocritical prohibition.
 
64Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Oct 04, 2004, 21:07
Double true dat, MBJ!
 
65nerveclinic
      ID: 59362
      Wed, Oct 06, 2004, 04:03
MBJ

The sad thing is, the guy who sells the pot, and I mean even if it's in large quantities, might do hard time if caught.

He is selling something we all seem to agree isn't that big a deal, but if he gets caught holding a large quantity, he might end up locked in a cage like a rapist, murderer, etc.

That's just not right.

It's time to end this injustice.
 
66Wilmer McLean
      ID: 075249
      Sat, Oct 09, 2004, 04:00
More news from a well respected former television newscaster and editor. I heard on the local radio stations about Ed Dague who was the longtime news anchor and editor of the local NBC Albany, NY television affiliate.

He retired a few years back with arthritis of the spine - ouch, ouch and ouch! He is recently admitting to smoking the wacky tabacky and having purchasing trouble because of his easy recognition.

I couldn't find a web link, sorry. But, he will be saying more in time about medical purposes and legalization.

Just a heads up in your battle. Ed Dague is a voice that will be heard in the Albany area and news circles.
 
67Tree
      ID: 76471215
      Tue, Oct 12, 2004, 14:08
Quadriplegic Serving 10-Day Sentence For First-Time Marijuana Charge Dies In DC Jail

yep, this guy was a menace II society.

as the U.S. continues to help put more and more opium into the world's drug supply chain, we allow men in wheelchairs to die in prison for a first-time possession offense.
 
68Baldwin
      ID: 389521120
      Tue, Oct 12, 2004, 14:20
Just because he's in a wheelchair doesn't mean he can't inflict his reefer madness all over society.

*/sarcasm*
 
69Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Nov 24, 2004, 21:20

As state works to put new medical marijuana law into effect, find out what's legal and what isn't


Of the Western Red states, I must say that Montana is my favorite. It passed a medical marijuana law on Nov. 2nd by a 62-38 margin, the highest ever.

Unfortunately the Alaska Measure 2 failed. Nevada is next.
 
70Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 13:56
One of the most important SCOTUS cases on a Constitutional issue (the scope of Congress' authority under the Commerce clause) and the most important case in the cause for legalization of MJ, was argued today at SCOTUS



Here's is a great layman's eye view of the legal issues in question.

Randy Barnett of the blog,
The Volokh Conspiracy is representing the Plaintiffs in the case.
 
71Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 13:59
BTW, this case and the SCOTUS decision, when it comes out, probally deserves its own thread. I'm surprised Zen hasn't started it already; but, he's most likely too busy trying to scrape together the money he owes me. ;0)
 
72biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 15:15
When's the decision going to come out?
 
73Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 15:58
Interesting non-marijuana sidelight is that conservatives have been splutering and fuming against Wichard v. Filburn {summary linked to in mbj 70) [even using wheat for home consumption purposes "affects interstate commerce" because it may affect the price of wheat nationally] for decades. Can MM advocates find a way to allow state MM laws without overruling Wichard (perhaps putting other federal uses of the CC that appeal to liberals)? Yeah, I would think.

In addition, the MM advocates' argument
the respondents show that the state law can be used to define a sub-class of activity which is outside the reach of the federal government, and therefore the state law becomes the valid one in that clearly defined sub-class.
is of the kind that Rehnquist would ordinary lap up, or maybe try to craft even if it wasn't argued. He can still participate even though not on the court, so it would be interesting to see what he has to say about it.

Toral
 
74biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 16:59
Larry Solum gives a blow by blow.
 
75biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 17:26
Having read none of the 3 major precendents, I don't feel like I have the background to guess how this decision will come out. Solum guesses 5-4, but could go either way.

I was swayed slightly by the Govt's arguement that it would be hard to distinguish between economic and non-economic activity, but admit I don't really understand the relavence to the precendents. The relalvence of the distinction between ecomomic and commercial also went largely over my head.
 
76Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 17:30
Great link, bili.

The government is basically arguing that, since you would have a hard time keeping the activity from having some market effect (direct or indirect), then the activity can be regulated via the Commerce Clause (in this case, regulated in a way to make the activity illegal). I'd have to believe that the conservatives on the Court would be a bit uncomfortable with this abdication of distinction the government is throwing out there.
 
77biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 17:36
... and what the hell is a "precendent" anyway!?! ;)

 
78Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 17:40
Those are like descendents, but going the other way...

:)
 
79Myboyjack
      ID: 06141920
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 18:32
With the scaling back of the CC that this Court has already done with the "guns around schools" case a few years ago; this might be the last, best hope for there to be any limit to what Congress can legislate. For libertarian, states righters like me, its a desperate case. If SCOTUS sides with the Feds on this one, really, we should just make state governments little subdivisions of the Federal government and screw the 10th Amendment. We've come pretty close to that as a reality anyway
 
80Myboyjack
      ID: 06141920
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 18:43
Target jumps the gun just a bit on the case before the Court.
 
81sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 19:23
from where this layman sits, for the court to rule against the CA MM allowance, would be for the court to state that Congress has authority of the interstate commerce of a commodity for which no legal market exists. If no legal market exists, what is there to regulate as commerce? Doesnt the term "commerce" by its very definition, mean that market forces are engaged?
 
82biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 19:27
The legality of the commerce is not at issue, I don't think. Simply it's existence is.
 
83Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 00:35
"regulation" doesn't mean allowance. It means control. Even to disallow.
 
84Wilmer McLean
      ID: 399273023
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 03:32
I don't know if this will add or subtract from the thread, but...

off broadway production of Marijuana-Logues now starring Chong

Yep, that Tommy Chong.

Also, I am not ashamed to say this, since Rachel Ray is originally from my area. She began her career on the local channel 6 station. WRGB - if I'm not mistaken, the longest running televesion station in the United States. Well, Rachel Ray visited Cheech on one of her shows. Cheech divulged that he and Chong will be making another movie soon.

Well, back to the regularly scheduled post.
 
85Baldwin
      ID: 301035306
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 07:46
Does anyone know a reliable national figure for the number of non-dealer MJ possession incarcerated?
 
86sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 07:53
re 83: exactly. But again, disallowing interstate commerce and disallowing intrastate personal production/use...are not the same. In the latter (ie this federal case), no commerce of any sort is being engaged. No transport of commodity, no marketing, no selling, no distribution. What commerce then, is there to regulate? If there is no commerce, then there is no authority for the federal regulation under the CC.
 
87Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 10:49
Sarge, read the link MJB posted in #80. Good stuff there on that point.
 
88sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 17:15
OK....as I understand it, the CC allows Congress some authorities IF certain actions could impact the interstate commerce (market prices for ex) of a given commodity.

Lets start there...is that understanding essentially (if over simplified), correct?

Here's a "what if";

IF SCOTUS sides with the govt in this case of MM, and says that personal use of personally produced commodity does indeed impact the national markets, then what is to keep Congress from outlawing personal gardens for ex?

My growing of tomatoes in my backyard for personal use is of little consequence if any, to the national market for tomatoes. However, if I grow them for my use, PD grows them for his, Baldwin for his, Tree for his, Madman for his, MBJ, etc etc etc....then cumulatively, we have reduced the consumption of commercially produced tomatoes. This would have the affect of reducing the market and hence the market price for that commodity and Congress should act under the CC.

If for no other reason than that, I think SCOTUS has to rule to allow for the personal production/use of MM where state laws have provided for that option.
 
89biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 18:11
The commerce clause, until relatively recently, had provided Congress with nearly unfettered constitutional regulatory power over the states because, as you suggest sarge, just about anything can be construed to affect interstate commerce.

Two recent "Federalist" decisions have attempted to set limits on Congresses power to regulate. If the court continues moving in this federalist vein, then the MM folks should win if they are consistent with the two more recent precedents, I think.

The original precedent was actually about wheat that folks were growing in their yard and making bread for their own consumption. I haven't read it so you will have to look to our army of guru-lawyers to give the details.
 
90Nerveclinic
      ID: 2710213012
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 18:48
Baldwin Does anyone know a reliable national figure for the number of non-dealer MJ possession incarcerated?

I don't have the answer to that and not to undercut your question, but to me it's irrelivent. No one should be thrown in Jail for MJ including major dealers anymore then a beer distributer should.

By the way the "liberals" and Clinton fans have their boy to thank for a lot of todays problems involving the feds going after medical MJ. Clinton administration requested a crack down on patients in states that had legalized medical MJ. So much for Clinton being some kind of a compassionate liberal. I'll never forgive the bastard for this.

To me this was one of the biggest atrocities of the Clinton Presidency.
 
91Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 18:49
If you read Willard, the Feds had a national program to limit the amount of wheat being grown nationally. Farmers had to have permits to grow wheat. Willard wanted to grow wheat without a permit for his own use. I happen to agree with the Willard ruling. If you are trying to limit the amount of wheat being grown nationally (in order to prop up prices), you let cannot allow individuals grow wheat for their own use without a permit because you would then lose control of the amount of wheat grown. There would be two types of wheat, X amount that is grown with permit and ? amount that is grown without. If every farmer grows wheat without a permit, obviously a lot of wheat is added to the supply side of our nation's market and the desired proping of prices could vanish.

There are no national programs to prop up the prices of home grown tomatoes or other garden veggies by use of permits. Therefore Congress cannot prohibit home gardens. Even if Congress did pass a "Tomato Price Support Act of 2005" with such a permitting process, individual's rights of Due Process (the right to pursue life, liberty, happiness) certainly outweights Congress' plans. In short, individuals cannot be forbidden from growning small amounts of their own food. Willard admitted he was growing for hog feed.
 
92biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 19:01
... and that, in turn, obviously screwed with the hog futures markets. Oink.

Liberty over economy, I say.
 
93Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 08:54
Willard? I think you mean Wickard. I always get that case name mixed up, as well, for some reason.

I happen to agree with the Willard ruling. If you are trying to limit the amount of wheat being grown nationally (in order to prop up prices), you let cannot allow individuals grow wheat for their own use without a permit because you would then lose control of the amount of wheat grown.

I don't know how you can reconcile THAT support for Wickard with support for the Respondent's case here. In Wickard, the government wanted to keep the commercial price high. In Raich the government wants to keep the price high. In both cases, the government is instituting a regulatory scheme to achieve that end. In both cases, someone is attempting to circumvent the federal regulatory scheme by growing the crop on their own. In Raich, Barnett argues that a second type of marijuana can be categorized -- non-economic, medically-approved, legal-in-California. You just argued that such a rationale runs counter to Wickard.

There are no national programs to prop up the prices of home grown tomatoes or other garden veggies by use of permits. Therefore Congress cannot prohibit home gardens.

This, of course, is quite silly. There are no national programs to prop up the prices of tomatoes BECAUSE Congress is not trying to prohibit home gardens. If Congress *were* trying to prohibit black-market home gardens, Congress *then would* be, defacto, establishing a national program to prop up prices (beyond the reach of all citizens, they would hope).

These things are basic to the Petitioner's argument. Barnett addresses those concerns not by your argument that to prohibit possession of a substance Congress must desire to guarantee widespread resale of the substance, but directly. Barnett simply argues that there is not a large price effect from a medical marijuana exception, therefore the federal regulatory scheme is not compromised by California's scheme. That makes a lot more sense, and has a lot better chance to persuade some judges. Of course, that argument isn't open to you, since you believe not just in Wickard, but in a wholly original rationale for it.

....


SCOTUSblog has some good analysis here.
 
94Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 09:53
I think Madman is right that Wickard has to be overuled, or at least, scled back significantly, in order for the MM patients to win here.

As for my prediction, Zen must be having a coniption because the only two for sure votes for MM here are his two bestest buddies, Rhenquist and Clarence Thomas. My guess is O'Connor would side with them as well; she usually is a dependable Federalist.

The only for sure votes against MM come from the liberal bench, Breyer and Ginsberg.

The others are questionable.
 
95biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 10:47
I read somewhere that, regardless of what Barnett and Clement say, it is not at all obvious that ceasing to prosecute MM cases would drop the price of illicit pacalolo, neglibably or otherwise. It might increase prices, as the econ 101 rules that govern legal markets are not the same as those that apply to black markets. Enforcement efforts might be able to pinpoint their resources more effectively towards true interstate commerce in herb if they ignore the homegrown, MM market.

I'm not sure I buy this argument, but the assumption of falling prices should be questioned.
 
96Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 10:51
I disagree with your analysis in 93, Madman. The Feds are not trying to make marijuana's price high by banning it. I define "regulate" as controlling, but allowing trade to happen. The trade of illegal goods is not "commerce", rather it is smuggling, piracy. The Feds have a legitmate purpose in regulating wheat production to raise prices in Wickard and I agree that they could ban crops grown to feed hogs. However, the Feds do not have the ability to ban substances under the Commerce Clause as I read it because banning does not fall under my reading of "regulate". Only the States may prohibit certain substances and their trade by passing criminal laws.

It would make sense in this scheme for the States to defer the approval and regulation of drugs to the Feds, no need to have 50 State drug administrations. However, this deference can be recalled, as California and 10 other states have done regarding the medical use of marijuana.

Barnett simply argues that there is not a large price effect from a medical marijuana exception, therefore the federal regulatory scheme is not compromised by California's scheme.

When I read this argument, I realized that the Petitioners were going to lose. "Oh, come on, it's just a little pot", doesn't work.Wickard didn't have a large effect on the price of wheat, either.
 
97biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 14:12
re: 85 - It varies significantly from state to state. Even liberal Washington requires at a minimum 1 day of jail time for possession, whereas I just happened across, ironically enough, this amicus brief for the petitioners where the AG of Alabama proudly states that 3 convictions for mere possession garners 15 years to life.
 
98biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 14:20
... and they don't mess around in 'bama either. They average around 10,000 arrests for pot every year, more than DUI or all other drugs combined.

Their prisons must be overflowing with pot smokers.
 
99biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 14:44
 
100biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 14:46
a third of million, though some of that's for dealing, which you were hoping to split out. Still looking.
 
101biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 14:55
Here is California, where at least some of the CS possession is split out.

It's not clear if all the dope is split out or whether some still remains under Controlled Substances heading.
 
102Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 15:47
I'm not sure I buy this argument, but the assumption of falling prices should be questioned.

Actually, I agree. I was going to write a detailed DPS post on this point. Stevens questioned this assumption in oral argument, and both sides seemed to try to shoot Stevens down. The executive summary of what I was going to say is that the market for marijuana is not a competitive market on either the supply side or the demand side. It is trivial to show how the assumptions underlying the competitive market models fall apart badly.

This doesn't mean, however, that I can prove which way or how far the price effect would go. But I can easily argue that there are many models of imperfect competition -- models that more closely match the illegal drug trade -- that won't have the expected price effect if you blindly follow an econ 101, competitive market model. Our economic education in this country is absolutely terrible. Or, it could be that Barnett chose this defense to avoid getting mired in alternative details. Who knows.

SZ -- However, the Feds do not have the ability to ban substances under the Commerce Clause as I read it because banning does not fall under my reading of "regulate".

This is a much more aggressive argument than the one Barnett is making, and even though I'm sympathetic to it in principle, it seems like a nightmare in practice.

For example, right now, the federal government allows regulated trade in marijuana. It simply has to be in pill form (Marinol). Does that mean that it can "ban" possession of marijuana in other forms? Or does it have to give a license to allow at least .0000000000001 ounces of marijuana to be legally sold before the government can ban the remainder? That would seem an odd requirement: the government must promote some sale to disallow others.

Or, does the government simply have to avoid the word "ban" and, instead, impose an impossibly high tax? In point of fact, as I understand the history, taxation is where all this began. Heroine trade was effectively but not literally banned because the government charged exorbitant taxes to those who wished to engage in its trade (see the Harrison Act). That extended to the first marijuana bans (the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 which required users to obtain a permit to allow them to be taxed, but circularly required them to possess marijuana before they could obtain a permit). Over time, the courts realized that they had, in effect, given the government the power to ban by giving the government unlimited powers to tax and regulate.

Further, the power to regulate is inherently the power to ban that which does not comply with the regulation. Therefore, banning is an integral and inseparable component of the power of regulation. Regulation without the power to "ban" is reduced to the realm of advice without authority to enforce that advice. The idea that the government can regulate commerce but then do nothing about "smuggling" or "piracy" seems wholly contradictory.

On a practical level, that approach ignores the great benefits we enjoy because the government has this power to ban ... it's illegal to transport live nuclear bombs across state lines, to privately own fully functional M1A1 tanks, possess child pornography, ensnare and imprison endangered species, etc.

Lastly, removing the power to ban effectively controverts Wickard. Wickard was about banning untaxed wheat production -- production that could even just AFFECT the entire market for wheat (the "tax" applied only to certain quantities produced on the farm, of course). Wickard's farm, of course, was too small to affect the market, but the entire class of his production -- for home baking and use for his livestock -- across the nation represented 30% of all wheat grown. Ergo, the court ruled that the government could ban Wickard's possession of untaxed wheat that he had grown on his own farm.

Your attempt to walk a fine-line between Wickard and this case is interesting, but I don't particularly think it is that persuasive.

(And, FWIW, the Respondents (Raich, et al) are the ones who want medical marijuana to be legal, not the Petitioner's (the governmet).)
 
103Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 15:52
Re #99:

It seems to me that many of those might be serving other sentences as well. Do you know whether these are prisoners serving only drug crimes?

A person who commits a murder, for instance, and has a bag of hash would serve time for the drugs as well, but I wouldn't call him an "adult drug offender" for purposes of your argument.

In other words, to know whether our prisons are overflowing with drug offenders (even those with small amounts) we would need to make sure our numbers included those in jail for only that crime and no other.

pd
 
104biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 16:07
PD - Well... I'm not so much forming an argument as trying to scrape together what hard data I find, partially to answer Baldwin's question, partially to get a better handle on the extent of the outrage, just out of sheer curiousity.

Personally, I find even 1 person incarcerated or simply serving an extended sentence due to possesion of any drug wrong-headed, and that is obviously the case. More in the deep south, less in the west, but some level of incarceration for possession everywhere. Given that that is my stance, I don't really need outrageous numbers to form any "argument", though apparently the numbers are pretty outrageous. Taking a gander at some of the southern states DOJ, though the don't break out pot, shows possession to be a large reason for incarceration.
 
105biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 16:11
Madman - FYI - Kleinman was the one with the criticism. I think Barnett was likely smart to stick the the "negligible effect" stance rather than try to bore the justices with an imperfect knowledge of market effects.
 
106biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 16:13
PD - As far as whether that is their sole crime, I wouldn't know. I would have to dig up the Bulletins where the original data was collected, I would guess, and I am not going to do that.
 
107Baldwin
      ID: 52116118
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 19:06
Nerve and Bili

I don't need the number, just in order to be opposed to it. I already am. Wasting the talents and productivity of hundreds of thousands of pot smokers [such as that may be] is bad enuff but draining the coffers to build ever more prisons is an effective argument against it as well. Off the top of my head we are spending $46,000 yearly to house each prisoner. You don't have to be a hedonistic, drug abusing liberal to see that something is terribly wrong with this picture.
 
108Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 19:34
You don't have to be a hedonistic, drug abusing liberal to see that something is terribly wrong with this picture.

But it helps!
 
109Tosh
      Sustainer
      ID: 057721710
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 20:55
Not to change the subject or anything ...
Cannabis boosts risk of psychosis

I don't buy it. My closest friends for the last twenty years could all be subjects in this study, and not a one of them has "psychotic symptoms such as schizophrenia, delusions or paranoia". Or perhaps the smoke is clouding my view.
 
110sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 21:16
...delusions or paranoia.

nah, not gonna go there. :)
 
111Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 21:39
paranoia

They are haunted by the belief that thousands of men in blue uniforms wish to seize them and throw them in jail.
 
112Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 08:26
br 105 -- that Kleiman post is excellent. I also like his succinct description of how price *could* increase if demand is reduced: a given quantity of enforcement dollars would be spent targetting a smaller section of the community, thereby increasing the "enforcement risk" paid for by suppliers. In other words, if you wanted to force the erroneous competitive market model, you'd choose a supply curve that slopes downward rather than the traditional upward sloping supply curve. I think there are a variety of possibilities, but that's a very good one that can be explained easily to demonstrate the old supply/demand model doesn't hold as one might blindly assume.

I'll have to read his blog more, that was a truly outstanding post on many levels.
 
113biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 09:54
Yeah, Madman, I just stumbled into him myself a few days ago. He's good. Makes me want to blog even less than I already do to increase the signal to noise ratio for those like him (and you, for that matter).
 
114Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 10:03
Damn fine blog. Wonder if he wants to be a Parrot?

:)
 
115Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 10:39
OT -- Dang. Liberals, do NOT read this post . Do NOT. Do NOT. Or, if you do, do NOT believe a word of it. Please. Or else my side will never win another election.

Fortunately, Kleiman forgot his own advice within a month, and called people like me bigots.

No blog is perfect.

Which is why you (and PD, and MBJ, et al) need to get back to it. Damn the signal to noise ratio! ;) In point of fact, I am still a dissatisfied with my blogging voice, but the only way to get better is to practice. Or come up with an alternative format. But sometimes I desperately need to have my "noise" blotted out by other people's "signals".

As for me, I promise to start posting, perhaps as early as tonight. Once you get out of the rhythm, it's hard to get back into it. I have a list of topics a mile long, but I'm not doing them, obviously. I've had a cold, the T-giving break, traveling to Florida, all the while spending tons of time in the housing market, yadda,yadda,yadda ...
 
116Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 10:53
I hear ya. I was burned out from the election, then went on vacation. Excuse time is over.
 
117Tortfeasor
      ID: 01042813
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 11:47
I have to agree with SZ's point in 96 that the smoking of marijuana is non-commercial and non-eceonomic. I am surprised that this point was not brought forth more clearly in the arguments. One of the main issues in favor of the MM users is that there is no official "market" for marijuana. Therefore, the aggregation concept of Wickard does not apply.

The only reason for the holding in Wickard was that if everyone grew wheat for their own consumption, the overall market would have been affected. But if MM users grew marijuana for their own use, nothing would be affected from an economic standpoint because there is no market for marijuana. No other growers, other than those who were growing for the illegal sale of marijuana in interstate commerce, would be affected by the MM users' growing of the marijuana.
 
118Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 12:53
have to agree with SZ's point in 96 that the smoking of marijuana is non-commercial and non-eceonomic. I am surprised that this point was not brought forth more clearly in the arguments. One of the main issues in favor of the MM users is that there is no official "market" for marijuana.

As in a lot of these questions, it often comes to how big or small the circle you draw is.

The CSA regulates the market of controlled substances. It define MJ as a controlled substance, etc........

I don't think, from a "honest theory" standpoint, that defining the "market" up ("we're regulating all controlled substances") or downsized ("the only relevant market is MJ smokers") does any good unless you're just wanting to frame your question to achieve the desired result.

My desired, more radical, approach would be to simply ask if homegrown MJ smokers have done engaged in interstate commerce themselves. If not, Congress butts out. This would, of course, invalidate half the FRC (yipeeeee!)
 
119Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 15:05
MBJ 94
The only for sure votes against MM come from the liberal bench, Breyer and Ginsberg.


What makes you say that about Ginsberg? Solum wrote that he got that sense that she was sympathetic to the respondents. In the only exchange she had with Barnett, he seemd to satisfy her querry:
Ginsburg: If we rule for you, why wouldn’t our ruling cover someone in a neighboring state who grew their own marijuana for medical use even though the state had not authorized it?

Barnett: There are two differen answers to this question. First, assuming this Court does not create an “essential to a broader regulatory scheme” exception to Lopez and Morrison, then your ruling would reach noneconomic medical use in states that have not authorized medical cannabis use. Second, if you do recognize the “essential to a broader regulatory scheme” exception, then the question is whether the lack of authorization makes a difference. California, for example, will issue ID cards that will help to isolate medical use from the interstate market.

Ginsburg: But there are no ID cards now.

Barnett: But the Court should trust the state to take those measures necessary so that the state authorization serves its intended purpose.
To me, Scalia sounded like a much tougher nut to crack in his refusal to accept the respondents' interpretation of Wickard:
Scalia: If there had been an interstate connection in Lopez, wouldn’t we come out
there other way?

Barnett: But here there is no interestate connection.

Scalia: That sounds like Wickard v. Filburn, where the family was eating the wheat they grew on their own farm.

Barnett: If the only activity relating to wheat on the Filburn farm was eating it at the family dinner table, the case would never have been brought.

Scalia: Isn’t that exactly what Wickard v. Filburn was about? I don’t think you’ve characterized that case fairly.

Barnett: The phrase “home consumed” in context meant consumed on the farm, by feeding to livestock, etc.

Breyer: But wasn’t homegrown and consumed wheat still regulated, irrespective of the particular use? The question was whether it “exerted substantial economic effect”.

Barnett: At that time, the Court was using the narrower definition of “commerce” that Justice Thomas has argued for. What we would call it today is “economic activity.” Filburn was engaged in economic action as part of a commercial farming enterprise.

Scalia: So why isn’t this economic activity?

Barnett: In Wickard v. Filburn the wheat was grown as part of a commercial enterprise and fed to livestock sold on the market.
Also, Sidney Zion got the same impression from Scalia:
Students of Scalia, the sharpest man on the court, might have thought he could separate the wheat from the weed. But the politics of drugs has a way with the finest of minds, and according to reporters covering the court, the majority is going to overturn the California law.

I asked Yale Kamisar, the legendary law professor at Michigan Law School, what he thought about this apparent reliance by the court on the ancient wheat decision.

"I look at it this way," he said. "If they're right, the Congress can ban breast-feeding because it has an economic impact on the interstate sale of milk."

 
120Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 15:37
MITH -- discerning leans from questions is a notoriously unreliable practice of SCOTUS watchers.
 
121Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 15:39
I accept that but I am still curious about why MBJ is so sure Ginsberg will go with the government.
 
122Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 16:25
My Rehnquist intuition questions whether he's a sure pro-MM vote as well. I suspect Solum (linked to my Bili above) is right on:
Justice Rehnquist is hard to call. We didn’t hear from him. One suspects he is both pro-federalism/state power and pro-federal regulation of drugs.
 
123Baldwin
      ID: 32114029
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 16:49
Don Wade from WLS radio was pointing out how striking it was that every last witness before these kinds of committees and courts who is pro-legalization has a ponytail. Not wise from a PR standpoint if you want to convince conservatives that legalization won't lead to the destruction of western civilization.

Take note SZ.
 
124biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 17:11
SZ doesn't have a ponytail. Ponytails lead to the destruction of western civilization?
 
125Baldwin
      ID: 32114029
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 17:11
Damn hippies. 8]
 
126biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 17:22
I only know two folks with a ponytail and ones a Samoan lawyer who played football on college and the other is a construction worker. Not exactly hippies.

Time to re-work your 40 year old stereotypes.
 
127sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 23:30
from 119;

"I look at it this way," he said. "If they're right, the Congress can ban breast-feeding because it has an economic impact on the interstate sale of milk."

suddenly, my 'what if' from post 88, would seem applicable. If the ruling does indeed go against MM, there would be virtually NOTHING we can do in our homes anymore. DIY projects would obviously impact negatively upon contractors business and the interstate sale/transportation of lumber. Gardening would conflict with the interstate transportation/sale of produce, a farmer/rancher couldnt even slaughter their own livestock for personal consumption as this would upset the perverbial apple cart as it pertains to beef/poultry/pork sales. No more flower beds since this would hurt FTD, etc etc etc.

Conservative?????????????????????
 
128Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 08:28
sarge33rd -- your example is essentially correct. Liberals thought they had won the right for the federal government to regulate everything under the sun. That is why they were so lividly upset when the conservatives on the court in "divisive" and basically "party-line" 5-4 decisions wrote Lopez and Morrison in recent years which begin, however so slightly, to make a claim that "no, the Interstate Commerce Clause doesn't give the federal government the right to do anything it wants".

At issue here is whether that trend will continue itself or reverse. Thomas is the only conservative who is bedrock enough in his philosophies to make me stick my neck out and predict his vote. I *think* Scalia will vote with him, but he asked some poignant questions that Barnett couldn't effectively answer, IMO. Kennedy scares me. He's the moderate selection forced down Reagan's throat by the Left because his previous nominee -- Douglas Ginsberg -- had smoked pot and the original nominee was "Bork'd". There will be considerable irony here if partisan liberals decry Kennedy's vote.

On the liberal wing, Breyer is a lock to fight this. Justice Ginsberg will be a hypocrit if she does -- or, more generously, she'll have to change her mind on a number of issues. Souter (Bush the first's disappointing selection) will likely go against it. Stephens, who knows. I have some hope he'll break, but I have no real reason for that hope.

So, yes, the conservatives are the ones who have attempted to repeal the New Deal liberalism, or at least confine it. The question now is whether or not their small majority is sufficiently close-nit as to force yet another decision limiting federal power throats of liberals. Or whether or not they could pick off or trade a few votes to get a majority coalition.

I have a bad feeling, however, that the power of the original precedents will be too great, and at least one conservative will swing to the liberals and defeat MM. There simply aren't enough justices like Clarence Thomas on the court, IMO, to keep the court rational.
 
129Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 12:24
MITH - Ginsberg's a pretty flaky justice; but I can't imagine that even she is such a huge legal hypocrit that she will find, for the first time in her life, a economic issue that the federal government can't regulate. She was with the minority on every case that restricted the power of Congress to regulate under Commerce Clause.

Stephen's is, I think the only hope on the Court of a "liberal" justice siding with the MM Respondents. Unfortunately, his vote will likely be off-set by Scalia, for whom the power of precedent and stare decisis, I'm afraid, will be too great.
 
130Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 12:36
can't imagine that even she is such a huge legal hypocrit that she will find, for the first time in her life, a economic issue that the federal government can't regulate.

But the respondent's argument is that mj is noneconomic. What am I missing?
 
131Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 12:42
MITH - She found that carrying a gun around a school was economic activity. If she finds that cultivating and distributing MJ is not an economic activity, she'll be realigning herself on a whole series of Commerce Clause cases. She can't do it using the logic she has previously employed.

I'm not clear, anyway, that even the Respondents are seriously arguing that MM is non-economic activity. I think their true argument is that it is an economic activity that does not substantially affect interstate commerce. That's a lot easier case to make, an a more honest one.
 
132Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 13:05
I know I'm out of my league arguing this with you so I appreciate your patience. Regardless of whether the respondents' argument is that growing MM is specifically non-economic or just insignificant to the economy of the mj black market, from what I've read about Lopez, the Government's argument was that public schools qualify as commerce and therefore Congress has legislative authority over them, and thus the right to ban firearms on their grounds.
 
133Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:26
from what I've read about Lopez, the Government's argument was that public schools qualify as commerce and therefore Congress has legislative authority over them

Right, OK, so here the government says that prescribing controlled substances is commerce, etc. It goes to back to how big or small you want to define the purpose of the regulation and the extent of the commerce regulated. Ginsberg can hardly consistently argue that a State run school qualifies as interstate commerce but that a State regulated medical profession does not. Can she?
 
134biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:57
Forget Medical Marijuana, go with our faith-based times and found a Church o' Ganja!

Perhaps you can apply for funding under a faith-based initiative to run a hospice in the back of the church, catering to medical marijuana patients!

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
 
135Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:27
They tried that with peyote.

Scalia shot it down.

:)

 
136Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:54
I know I'm out of my league arguing this with you so I appreciate your patience.

BTW, I really think that's a silly statement. I went to a pretty darn selective law school and I'd put plenty of the lay people who post on this board in a discussion with any of my classmates on matters of Constitutional law. One of the cool things about our Constitution is that it's a short, straight-forward document that deals in nice even broad strokes. MITH, Madman, billi, Toral, etc., need not take a step back from some law school grad who tries to "pull rank" on them on these issues.
 
137Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 19:16
I concur. Con Law can be self taught fairly easily.
 
138biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 19:31
Any idea how this ayahausca/UDV case differs from the ritual use of peyote then, MBJ? If there is a nice, neat Supreme Court precedent, wouldn't the 10th curcuit follow it and not grant the injunction?
 
139Baldwin
      ID: 91133319
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 20:33
Bili

I wasn't asking SZ to cut his ponytail. I swear I saw a picture of him playing Aussie football with a ponytail but I digress. I was pointing out that those testifying before the boards, committees and courts in favor of decriminalization don't realize that image matters and they are showing up looking like the counter-culture disasters of their opponents nightmares. I assume they don't mean to alienate the very people they are trying to win over but they are none-the-less.
 
140biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 20:41
As long as I've known SZ he's been fratboyesque, except when he had that disaster with the bleach... ;)

I don't really know what you are talking about regarding image. Barnett is about as far from a hippie as you can get (he's a libertarian who never smoked pot in his life), and the respondents just looked ill. If you are talking about some other case, perhaps you are right and they call Spacolli clones one after the other. I haven't seen it, however. Then again, I am unclear what you are referring to.
 
141Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 01:44
Anyone who thinks that a man who can make compelling testimony in front of a court or panel yet is no more than a "counter-culture disaster" simply because he sports a ponytail is an idiot.

The drug reform movement is plenty aware that image counts. Our spokespeople are choosen with that in mind. However, the counter culture refuses to bow to the prevailing paternalistic, hierarchical "Power" meme complex and refuse to silence those who ache to speak, otherwise we would be the idiocrat's henchmen. The mere fact that a man who advocates a point without the eloquence and the vocabulary of a corporate hack does not invalidate his opinion. This bias against the underclass, the non-voter, the man who is generally disinterested is pervasive. If he is wronged and wants to address his injustice, he is usually ignored because his complaints are not polished or even polite, yet his wrong is injustice all the same.

Baldwin - Take note. You were expecting me to have a ponytail. I posted a picture of me playing Footie and you posted, "Wow, I was expecting you to have a ponytail." A few years go by and you "swear" you saw me with a ponytail. Hmm, senior moment causes memory lapse - insert preconceived notion in spot where memory should be.

When I had long hair I would never dishonor it by tying it up behind me, I let my freak hair fly! (except when I played hoops).
 
142Baldwin
      ID: 49112643
      Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 04:38
I was just making a pragmatic point.

While you attempt to reassure me with 'The drug reform movement is plenty aware that image counts. Our spokespeople are choosen with that in mind' your tone in the rest of your response does the exact opposite.

I have not made the observations I mentioned. Don Wade on WLS said he was most struck seeing that at some government function, I presume it was witnesses before the SCOTUS but I wasn't sure. He wasn't trying to say anything negative about people with ponytails either. It was merely an expression of shock that your side wasn't being pragmatic.
 
143Baldwin
      ID: 49112643
      Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 04:42
And I repeat that his point wasn't 'I noticed a few damn hippies in there'. It was every last witness had a ponytail. His shock was that it was a universal trait as if the movement was blind to their own image problem among the very people they were sent to convince.

It's like a defense lawyer dressing up his client in a prison stripe suit.
 
144Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 11:49
If there is a nice, neat Supreme Court precedent, wouldn't the 10th curcuit follow it and not grant the injunction?

That was a First Amendment case - didn't raise the Commerce Clause issue.
 
145nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 19:28
I watched the post hearing press conference on C-Span.

The patients personal physician did have his hair pulled back but he was articulate and persuasive in his arguments.

The anti-MJ groups were interviewed. They appeared cold, uncaring, pinched, bureaucratic.

The woman spoke who is at issue in the case, I believe she has an inoperable brain tumor and she says the one thing that can help her get through the day is marijuana.

She did not look or talk counter culture at all. She's tried the "government" medicine, isolated THC and she said it had no effect.

The MJ is the only thing that can stop her tremors and keep her appetite. Marijuana has 300 chemicals in it and the government has no idea which ones to isolate to recreate the same therapeutic effects.

It makes me sick our government wants to make people like this suffer. These beasts that got up and spoke after her discussion with the press honestly deserve the same fate as she is experiencing because what they are doing to her is nothing short of torture.

These cases undermine the Constitution because it turns honest, suffering individuals into criminals.

It calls into question our entire system of law and it's legitimacy. It encourages people to disregard the law, just as laws against people for racial reasons did. It undermines our entire system of government.

I could care a less about all the legal discussions above. I am sick about this issue. I'm embarrassed once again to live in such a backward country where this is even an issue.

A curse on the people who would see this woman suffer because they don't want her to smoke pot. Shame on them. Let's see how they feel if it happens to a member of their family. Of course they have their heads so far up their azz they would deprive their own child the medicine to prevent their suffering...AND THAT'S A FACT.

It’s pathetic we are even having this discussion, but then look who we elected President.
 
146sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 22:11
IF indeed the MJ is the only (so far) absoute relief this woman can get, then could it not be argued that to criminalize her access to MM would constitute "cruel and unusual" punishment and therefore such criminalization would in itself, be unconstitutional w/o regard to the CC?
 
147Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 15:55
It’s pathetic we are even having this discussion, but then look who we elected President.

Yeah, I know. We elected the candidate who wants to appoint justices who gives women like Raich hope. Terrible. Clarence Thomas, stooge boy, as a judicial hero. I mean, how much worse can you get?

We definitely should have elected Kerry. A couple of additional leftist appointments who support broad federal regulatory powers and Raich would die, painfully, without having to go through a legal process that would, in that case, be pointless.

It's so terrible to elect a President who is on the side of those who give people like Raich hope. Terrible.
 
148Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 16:25
Uh, yeah. Which side is the Administration on in this fight?

You can't have it both ways: The Administration's lawyer arguing that that this woman should not be able to grow these drugs under state law, and an Administration ready to appoint judges who are against that position.
 
149nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 23:45
Madman I don't think you understand me.

I meant a country that is so backword we elect an idiot as President explains a lot about why we are even discussing this. I mean this guy is the best we can do...he can barely complete a sentence. Did you watch the debates?

Kerry's no better. Except he can complete a sentence even if it's a bunch of hot air.

I think this issue says a lot about our country. Our level of sophistication.

A woman with an inoperable brain tumor gets great relief by smoking marijuana and we are wasting our time at the highest court in the country actually trying to torture her by taking this medication away from her.

It's a backward country.

We joke that countries in the Middle East are living hundreds of years in the past. How far back are we?

It's a joke, just like the leaders we elect.
 
150sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 22:18
anyone are to tackle my question in 146?
 
151nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 01:48
146 is an interesting theory if you could prove it. I'm no lawyer though.
 
152Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 11:08
sarge your "cruel and unusual punishment" theory is really a non-sequitor". The "cruel and unusual punishment" prohibition refers to punishment for a crime - not to whether an act is criminal or not of itself.
 
153sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 22:13
sorry MBJ, this isnt a courtroom where one is limited to answering the question and only the question exactly as posed. I thought self-evident extensions of logic were permissible;

When an act is criminalized, there must be some form of punishment. Even if that punishment is no more severe than to say, "No, you cannot have/do that."

If MM is criminalized, then the patient cannot use it. To deny pain relief, as punishment for a criminal act, for one who suffers from an inoperable brain tumor, would constitute "cruel and unusual" punishment. Would it not?
 
154walk
      ID: 01118821
      Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 22:24
NY Modifies Rockefeller Laws

Somewhat good news...wish it was more, but at least not as Draconian as before.

- walk
 
155Baldwin
      ID: 17114795
      Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 07:18
Sarge

While I agree with you in principle, you do understand that your argument doesn't work as a legal argument just because you can finesse the point rhetorically?
 
156sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 07:33
why doesnt it work Baldwin?

How does any punishment which in affect denies pain relief from an inoperable condition, fail to fall under the "cruel and unusual" clause?
 
157Baldwin
      ID: 17114795
      Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 07:38
Because preventing you from some perceived threat is not, legally speaking, a punishment.

If we made bungee jumping illegal we wouldn't say 'you have been sentenced to a bungee-jump free existance' even tho you could make the point rhetorically.
 
158sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 07:55
relief from physical pain induced by an inoperable condition, can hardly be compared to a recreational activity. Apples and oranges Baldwin. They dont equate.
 
159Baldwin
      ID: 17114795
      Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 08:03
Sarge, why are you deliberately being obtuse? You were even involved with the law in some capacity, which I keep forgetting. MP? Military Prosecutor?

Do you actually think a judge ever utters the words 'I sentence you to be MJ free for x years'?

Does the legal judgement not go, 'for the MJ related crime X, I sentence you to Y'?

Being forced to go without MJ is not the sentence, it is the law for everyone in the first place.
 
160Myboyjack
      ID: 1727913
      Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 10:10
anyone are to tackle my question in 146?

sorry MBJ, this isnt a courtroom where one is limited to answering the question and only the question exactly as posed. I thought self-evident extensions of logic were permissible;

sarge - If you don't actually want to know the correct answer to your question - just say so ahead of time. Just say that you would like to restrict responses to your question or comment to others who, like you, evidently don't understand the legal issue. That way those of us limited to reality and unable to understand your "self-evident extensions of logic" (you know like SCOTUS justices and what not) won't waste your time.
 
161sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 22:21
Premise: The criminalization of MM (ie, the federal reversal of state laws allowing MM)

Premise: Any criminal act requires some form of punishment.

Premise: Any form of punishment, must pass the "cruel and unusual" clause of the constitution.

Anyone object to anything so far?

State law says that MM is OK under certain criteria.

Federal law makes no distinction between MM and recreational use.

Congress is attempting to enforce federal jurisdiction, via the CC under the guise of homegrown MM being/having an adverse impact upon the marijuana blackmarket.

How about now? Any problems yet?


What I am suggesting, I thought was fairly plain. IF the apparent intent of Congress, (which is controlled by the Republicans btw so lets drop this rhetoric about how it is the liberals trying to do this), is to criminalize MM and the act of criminalization means imposing a penalty or punishment of some sort. This would by definition, disallow the use of MM. How is it NOT "cruel and unusual" to legislate that a patient MUST suffer from the pain of an inoperable condition? (which is the net result of criminalizing MM.)
 
162nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 03:07
MBJ

It does seem like a fair point, that by punishing a cancer patient, who relies on MJ to limit her suffering, by not allowing her to use this "medication" as the "punishment" it could be deemed cruel and unusual punishment.

Maybe that's a legal stretch, but there's an argueable logic to the premise.

In any event, one could easily argue it's a form of torture.

If the 'court" takes this medicine (assuming it acually is working as a medicine for her) and by taking it away she is unable to eat, is in more pain, cannot sleep, etc., it could be argued that this is a form of torture no matter what the legal semantics.
 
163sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 22:53
re 159;

MP = Military Police. I was a criminal investigator.

Being forced to go without MJ is not the sentence, it is the law for everyone in the first place.

Not true. Under CA law (and others as well), MM is legal.

Does the legal judgement not go, 'for the MJ related crime X, I sentence you to Y'?

How about rephrasing that just a tad?

"For obeying the laws of the state in which you reside but with which Congress disagrees, I hereby sentence you to a life of pain, agony and endless misery, as we are taking away from you the one thing which allows you to sleep, eat and rest."


Of course, that isnt in the least bit "cruel" or "unusual" now is it?
 
164Baldwin
      ID: 61141111
      Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 13:13
That formulation may work on a forum, it may work before a congressional committee, it may work as a political argument, it certainly will work at one of SZ"s rallies...

...but pigs will fly across the galaxy before SCOTUS considers that a valid legal argument.

Have all the fun you want with it anywhere else.
 
165sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 21:31
and that Baldwin brings us right back to the base question in the first place, "why?".
 
166Baldwin
      ID: 3711421120
      Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 21:42
Because it obviously isn't the sentence. It's the result of obeying the law. Being in a state of compliance with the law is not legally speaking a sentence that has been handed down by a judge.

This issue is a pretty good indicator if how willing and able you are to suspend logic in pursuit of agenda.
 
167sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 22:02
but it IS in compliance with state laws, as set forth by the voters of that state.

Therein lies the rub Baldwin. It seems your Republican-Conservatives, are currently in favor of more federal government, less state authority, more federal jurisdiction and intervention and less state independence and self governing. Yet, as a conservative, because this particular intrusion by the feds fits into your version of "how the world should be", you will sit idly by, watch it, endorse it even, while someone who has done nothing at all to you, is made to suffer to the extent they cant sleep. keep food down, or live some degree of life while free of pain.

I wonder, what will your attitude be, when the feds dictate how to run YOUR business, because the way you've been doing it, has what is in their minds, "an unacceptable" impact on the national market?
 
168nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 05:01
Baldwin

What's your opinion on MJ for the extremely and honestly ill. Should their doctor be allowed to prescribe it?

Forget any laws I just would like to hear your honest opinion.
 
169Baldwin
      ID: 491136124
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 05:37
Sarge is so off base I wonder if he ever really reads me. I've been for the repeal of the MJ prohibition since day one on these boards so...

...obviously my point in this discussion has not been in furtherance of the feds' campaign.

My take is that the whole anti-drug war is just price supports for politically connected power elite who have been running drugs since the Boxer rebellion.

Don't get me wrong...I am also against MJ use, so ending the extreme persecution of drug users should not be construed as support for drug use.

Nerve

I am extremely unimpressed with the claims that only MJ itself will do, not pills containing select active ingredients. However in cases where that can be demonstrated I see no problem with MJ use in that case.
 
170Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 08:44
However in cases where that can be demonstrated I see no problem with MJ use in that case.

One of the lowlights of this Administration is its unwillingness to have scientific studies in this area to prove that point one way or the other.
 
171sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 09:06
Then why Baldwin, have you been arguing in favor of the feds position?

My entire point, is to wonder if another tactic might not serve the proponents of MM better, than to argue against the CC. I AGREE with arguing against the CC, since the apparent current interpretation, could lead to what I speculated in post 88, supported by post 119.
 
172Baldwin
      ID: 011511213
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 14:54
I have been pointing out that your one argument was not logical, Sarge. Something I am amazed every lawyer on the board hasn't been doing.

I don't fault the federal judges here. Your problem is with the federal legislature.
 
173sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 16:16
So you claim it to be illogical, to argue the logical conclusion or result, of a judicial decision? THAT position Baldwin, I find incredibly...well, ahem...illogical.
 
174sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 16:33
I don't fault the federal judges here. Your problem is with the federal legislature.

Well I for one fault the Federal Judges. SCOTUS has the ability to uphold states rights and deny the absurd claim by Congress under the CC, that home-grown MM holds an adverse impact on the national black market of marijuana.
 
175Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 16:38
That's exactly right. It's the point of the judicial branch to tell the legislature when they've gone too far.
 
176Baldwin
      ID: 131111220
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 21:01
Well I do agree that the division between states' rights and federal jurisdiction is a matter for the courts but this wouldn't be the first time the federal government execized authority over what can be and what can't be used as an approved drug. No, I think your answer is in the US Congress. You'd think there would be enuff families who have lost someone to MJ conviction but I guess you are fighting the families who have lost someone to drug addiction who are loathe to see recreational drugs get any leeway at all or families scared to death their kids will become addicted if we go soft on drugs.

BTW have you guys ever see a drug addict go down the tubes? Not pretty. Are you guys who are so pro-MJ, anti-drugs in any sense?
 
177sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:07
held and watched a buddy die from on OD while waiting for the ambulance to arrive back in '75. Yea, I've seen what "bad shiit" can/will do to a person.

I'm pretty staunchly anti-drug, with anything more potent than mj. (referring to what are currently used as recreational drugs.)

how is it that you dont find the beef to be with SCOTUS? The Congressional effort to apply the CC, is absurd at best and downright dangerous at worst. It does in point of fact, open the door for Congress to ban home-grown vegetables, home brewed beers, home produced much of anything to be honest about it. This interpretation of the CC, allows Congressional authority to override states rights, if Congress merelt thinks something might impact the national markets. No need to prove it, just alledge it and the CC would apply.
 
178Baldwin
      ID: 5411521220
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:14
Are you for abolishing the FDA and making the regulation of drugs the responsibility of each state?

If not, I put it to you that SCOTUS is not mistaken that the federal government has a role in regulating drugs and until the federal government alters it's treatment of MJ, California's opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

If you can talk your state representative into legalization why can't you talk your US representative into it?
 
179sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:17
That the Feds have a role I do not deny, I deny authority under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. Why is THAT so hard for you to understand?
 
180Baldwin
      ID: 5411521220
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:20
Is the FDA and the federal government really cut out of the loop if it doesn't pass state lines? I would doubt that. Can I start my own in-state-only thalidomide company?
 
181sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:28
IF you can home produce, for only your own consumption AND can demonstrate a medical need, while gaining a medical prescription for it....THEN you have a valid comparison. Else, your simply blowing smoke.
 
182Baldwin
      ID: 5411521220
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:30
But the Church of Thalidomide and my hippy doctor agree with me. Please overlook the smirk on my face that says I'm pulling a fast one on the federal government.
 
183sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:33
Of course Baldwin, you also need for your state legislators to vote on, pass and your Gov to sign, a bill allowing it within your state.

IOW, you're still too busy blowing smoke to be taken seriously.
 
184Baldwin
      ID: 5411521220
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:37
Stop trying to get the courts to override the will of congress and change the will of congress.
 
185sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:39
I tried, but the 'small govt' conservatives who are apparently opposed to states rights, won out.
 
186Baldwin
      ID: 5411521220
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:46
I haven't seen a states' rights conservative in favor of splintering the FDA into 50 state bodies.
 
187sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 22:58
more smoke and mirrors Baldy.

Isnt it you conservatives who are/have been laying claim to "less govt is good, more is bad'? Isnt it the conservatives who have long touted themselves as being in favor of "states rights and self-governing'? Isnt it you conservatives who are in control of the very Congress which is currently (IMHO) misusing the CC and thus abusing the constitution?

The answer in case you need abit of assistance is; yes. Just that this time, as I said earlier, the misuse fits into the framework of "we know what is best for you despite what your voters think they know" and thus you sit idly by endorsing the action. Rather than condemn it (and thus your parties ideals, an act which would call for extreme honesty and integrity I'll admit), you hide behind other smoke screens and rhetoric. Twist and turn the debate into another direction.

This entire discussion begana with MM and the move by a few states to put it to a vote. That resulteed in our Congress taking it before SCOTUS, in an effort to undermine a states rights by abusing authority granted under the CC. Rather than deal with that debate,m you throw the discussion in a different direction (FDA for ex).

Tell me Baldwin, what exactly does the FDA have to do with interstate commerce? How does the CC apply to the FDA or the FDA to the CC?

Answer; They dont. Just another play with smoke and mirrors.
 
188Baldwin
      ID: 5411521220
      Sun, Dec 12, 2004, 23:07
I don't see a problem in principle of leting the federal government oversee drugs. Conservatives are all about efficiency in government. The FDA already can't approve drugs fast enuff for my taste. I don't see how duplicating that analysis 50 times is going to be better.

If you really want to limit the federal government regulation to only interstate commerce I'd bet a lot of your favorite federal oversight programs would go down in flames. Except for my internet businesses I don't do interstate commerce. Is it ok with you if I tell OSHA to go screw itself?
 
189Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 00:43
I don't see a problem in principle of leting the federal government oversee drugs.

In general I don't think you'll get much argument on that point. Except that when it comes to MJ, you have a goverment which intentionally misclassifies MJ, and won't allow any scientific studies.

Think about it: It requires years of drug testing out the wazoo for everything. But it won't allow MJ to be used for testing.

 
190nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 01:51
Baldwin:

You're quite the apologist for torture as usual.

Are there going to be people who take advantage of the system? Sure. There's a multi million dollar right wing radio talk show host who has abused other "legal" drugs. That doesn't mean there is no value in them for a person truly sick.

Oxy cotton may be a fine drug if you're a terminally ill cancer patient in horrible pain, but there will always be the right wing talk show host who takes advantage of this "legal" drug.

So you believe there are "legal" drugs that work as well as MJ?

Funny I've never seen a "patient" on TV say, you know, MJ was really making me feel better, gave me an appetite, helped my discomfort, then I tried this Government version and it's just as good.

Surely we can find these people and put them in front of a camera?

You think only a hippy doctor can prescribe this?

I think you'll be hard pressed to find many hippy doctors, far less then red neck, knuckle dragging Ludites who would rather see people tortured then medicated if it's not a laboratory synthesized corporate medication.

If it wasn't so horribly sad it would be funny how stupid our country is.


 
191Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 08:43
Think about it: It requires years of drug testing out the wazoo for everything. But it won't allow MJ to be used for testing.

Actually, the Feds have had their own MJ (in pill form) tesing program for years. They send people a bottle of MJ pills straigh from Uncle Sam every month. It's just never gone anywhere.


 
192Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 09:34
My reading is that the pill is a very weak form of the disease, and they won't allow any other forms to be tested.

I've also read somewhere that Uncle Sam grows a smokable form, but that may have stopped. I remember reading a story online about a guy who (used to?) receive his "funny cigarettes" in a package each week.
 
193Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 09:45
Yeah, I think that's all right. Zen, probally has the whole scoop.
 
194Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 09:50
"very weak form of the disease"

Freudian slip there, eh?

Ugh.
 
195Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 10:55
There are only six people still receiving Fed. government grown marijuana from our farm in Oxford, MS. The program has been shut to new patients for some time. The cannabis they produce is schwag, I've heard, and the patients have to smoke a lot of it to get the effects. It comes to them in pre-rolled joints in these coffee tins.

Marinal, the pill form, has no support from anyone except the drug company that produces it.
 
196nerveclinic
      ID: 88592016
      Mon, Dec 13, 2004, 19:50
Marinal, the pill form, has no support from anyone except the drug company that produces it.

Now Zen, don't let the facts get in the way of a right wing zealot.
 
197Baldwin
      ID: 5611371413
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 14:37
SZ - Nerve

Marinal or other pharma-substitutes haven't produced any similar results to MJ treatment? How about backing that up with something besides anecdotal evidence and your own prejudice in favor of complete legalization.

I don't know one way or another but it is obvious you have an interest in substitutes not being a viable option.



I am curious that no one here has come out in favor of the drug war, and we have a all sides of the spectrum covered, so just who are pro-drug war legislators representing? How wide and deep is the resistance to legalization among the population.

If I were SZ I'd be organizing a 'Republicans for prohibition repeal' organization and just stay out of their way.
 
198Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 15:02
I think most people realize that the medical marijuana issue is being held hostage to an overzealous drug war. That doesn't mean that people are against the drug war in general (or even recreational mj in particular). Personally I'm against recreational mj--just look at the trouble we have with cigarettes and drinking.

But as a medical issue the federales are on the wrong side of this one, nearly every step.
 
199biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 15:15
There is a pervasive view in this country that if something is viewed as bad, the obvious solution is to pass a law against it.

My view is that in a democracy, you have to allow people the opportunity to screw themselves up, balanced with the level of harm it does to society as a whole.

The relevant questions when considering the appropriateness of marijuana prohibition in general then are:

1) How much harm does it do to a particular individual, and how would that harm impact society as a whole?

2) If you think that the answer to 1) is negative enough to legislate penalties for use, do those penalties have an overall positive impact on a) the individual b) society as a whole.

We've discussed this in so much detail in the past, that I am sure most people know my answers to these questions. I don't think marijuana causes significant harm to the vast majority of users, and I don't think impact on society as a whole is significant. I think the penalties do signficantly more harm to the individual and to society than marijuana use itself does.

Unfortunately, I don't think the majority of society ever goes farther than asking the question: "does marijuana use do any harm to the individual, and hence to a degree, society?" The answer to this question is yes, it does. They then think - prohibit it! They don't look at the other side of the coin and see the damage the prohibition causes.

People asking themselves this wrong question is starting to change, but we aren't there yet.
 
200Baldwin
      ID: 5011541413
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 15:53
I think it people are more provincial than that. They aren't concerned with society as a whole. They just don't want this stuff anywhere near their kid.
 
201biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 15:58
Perhaps you are right, Baldwin.

The other question that people should ask that I neglected to mention is:

"Does prohibition decrease use, and specifically the most damaging chronic use?" People assume that the answer to this is yes, but it is far from clear.
 
202Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 16:00
They probably also forget to ask: Will lung, mouth, and other cancers increase if this drug is more freely available? And: Will that cost me more, both in direct increases to health insurance and taxes?
 
203biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 16:11
I would guess taxes would decline, as we would be paying for fewer prisons and the overall impact on our criminal justice system would be minimized.

As far as cancer and heart disease go, I don't know. I personally think that overall use would not increase appreciably if it were legal, and might actually decline, so health affects would be mininal. Peer stygmatism often works more affectively than criminalization. Also, you smoke such a small amount compared to tobacco, though you do hold it in your lungs longer, that I don't think the health affects are important.

I also tend to be one that is unswayed by those that cite monetary impacts as a reason for limitations on rights. The equations are many and complex, and generally, if you die earlier your monetary impact on society is less.
 
204Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 16:18
There is, of course, no right to smoke MJ, to the rights argument is a (ahem) smokescreen.

But the point behind MJ accesibility is to increase it, meaning an increase in use (this is self-evident to me, but you believe MJ usage would remain the same or decline? I don't know how that would be the case.). The carcinogens in mj smoke would only serve to increase cancer rates, the cost of which is borne by the other insured as well as the states which care for the uninsured (as they do now).

If, of course, mj use drops as a result of it being more accessible then cancer rates and financial costs would not increase, plus the added bonus of (presumably) fewer people in jail. That seems to be a big leap to me.
 
205Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 16:48
PD, where do you come up with MJ use leads to cancer? I'm not playing tobacco exec here, I honestly do not believe there is any more than a negligible increase in the chance of cancer between MJ smokers and those who do not.

There have been no studies regarding vaporizing marijuna and cancer. Personally, I think when MJ becomes legal in America, about half of all use will be oral. I know of no studies regarding cancer and eating of MJ.

I've raised this point many, many times: There will likely be a short term increase in MJ use when it is legalized. I believe we can look at The Netherlands for what we can expect for marijuana usage after we have legalized and their usage is about 25% below American usage. Why do the Dutch smoke less cannabis even though any one of them could walk to a local coffeeshop and purchase some dank White Widow? There are many theories but the final analysis is unclear.
 
206Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 17:01
Assuming that the marijuana itself remains the same (that is, that the chemicals in the weed remain the same and efforts at reducing tar, cyanide, and carcinogens such as benzopyrene don't occur), I think that the rates of cancer can only increase, particularly with smoked form in which mj users inhale more deeply than cigarette smokers and hold the smoke in longer.

There are few studies in this area, for obvious reasons discussed above, but I'm simply saying that if we are totalling up potential costs we need to keep in mind the health risks as well as the health benefits.
 
207biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 17:14
Then you would also have to consider that legalization would allow those currently smoking unfiltered dope to use water filtration devices (i.e. bongs etc..) that are currently hard to come by because of the fed crackdown on makers and distributors as well as the increased risk of prosecution from keeping obvious paraphenalia lying around.
 
208Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 17:20
Absolutely. But take a guess as to the percentage of people who would use bongs to any large degree if mj was widely available. My guess is that it would be a very small amount--certainly drawfed by the many other means of taking it.

The numbers of people using bongs would go up as they are available, for the same reasons that the number of mj users increase. I don't know that an increase in bong users (who are shielded from much, but not all, of the "bad" effects of mj) would come very close to the overall increase in mj users.
 
209biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 17:57
I am not sure you are very well attuned to the dope smoking community, PD.

As far as rights. Call it what you want. Freedom to have a bong-hit, if you will, similar to the freedom for any sober, law abiding citizen over the age of 21 to go into a bar have a shot of whiskey in any county where it isn't prohibited. There are many rights that we have that aren't specifically enumerated in the constitution, but I don't feel like having a symantic war, and you know darn well my meaning. I had no reason or desire to create a "smoke"-screen.
 
210Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 18:13
I am not sure you are very well attuned to the dope smoking community

It's not so much a matter of being attuned to things right now (and I'm not going to get into a "I'm a bigger universal dope observer than you are" argument), but in saying where it's going. Increased accessability, to me, would translate into increased use.

MJ use has some cancer risk (lower with bong users, but greater with heavy users). Increased use would increase risk exposure. I know that's not a popular point among the pro-grass advocates, but it's not going to go away.

As for rights, "you know what I mean" simply doesn't fly when used to justify a mischaraterization of my point. Rights never stand on their own--they are always in balance with other rights. It's where we strike the balance that matters. I never said the financials should be used to justify "rights" being curtailed. I'm saying that rights have costs (financial costs, health and life costs, and other rights' costs) that are societally dispersed but which are real costs that need to be included in the equation.

You may have come up with a different answer based on the emphasis you place on all the elements of this difficult question, and that's fine (really). I'm just telling you where my emphasis is on it.
 
211nerveclinic
      ID: 88592016
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 20:34
PD you can make the argument that you pull in the smoke further and hold it in longer, but cigarette smokers smoke cigarette after cigarette all day long.

Two packs a day is not unusual for a cigarette addict, the equivalent of only one or two cigarettes a day is not unusual for a pot addict.

Many pot smokers only take several hits even when daily users.
 
212nerveclinic
      ID: 88592016
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 20:39
Baldwin... Marinal or other pharma-substitutes haven't produced any similar results to MJ treatment? How about backing that up with something besides anecdotal evidence and your own prejudice in favor of complete legalization.

The following is the partial text of the testimony of Lester Grinspoon, M.D., Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, before the Crime Subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee, U.S. House of Representatives, on October 1st 1997.

This is just one quick answer to your question that I found in 2 minutes...

Cannabis has several uses in the treatment of cancer. As an appetite stimulant, it can help to slow weight loss in cancer patients [2]. It may also act as a mood elevator. But the most common use is in the prevention of nausea and vomiting of cancer chemotherapy. About half of patients treated with anti-cancer drugs suffer from severe nausea and vomiting, which are not only unpleasant but a threat to the effectiveness of the therapy. Retching can cause tears of the oesophagus and rib fractures, prevent adequate nutrition, and lead to fluid loss. Some patients find the nausea so intolerable that they say they would rather die than go on. The anti-emetics most commonly used in chemotherapy are metoclopramide (Reglan), the relatively new ondansetron (Zofran) and the newer granisetron (Kytril). Unfortunately, for many cancer patients these conventional anti-emetics do not work at all or provide little relief.

Oral tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) has proved effective where the standard drugs were not [4,5].But smoking generates faster and more predictable results because it raises THC concentration in the blood more easily to the needed level. Also, it may be hard for a nauseated patient to take oral medicine. In fact, there is strong evidence that most patients suffering from nausea and vomiting prefer smoked marihuana to oral THC [6].

Oncologists may be ahead of other physicians in recognising the therapeutic potential of cannabis. In the spring of 1990, two investigations randomly selected more than 2,000 members of the American Society of Clinical Oncology (one-third of the membership) and mailed them an anonymous questionnaire to learn their views on the use of cannabis in cancer chemotherapy. Almost half the recipients responded. Although the investigators acknowledge that this group was self-selected and that there might be a response bias, their results provide a rough estimate of the views of specialists on the use of Marinal (dronabinol, oral synthetic THC) and smoked marihuana.

Only 43% said the available legal anti-emetic drugs (including Marinol) provided adequate relief to all or most of their patients, and only 46% said the side-effects of these drugs were rarely a serious problem. 44% had recommended the illegal use of marihuana to at least one patient, and half would prescribe it to some patients if it were legal. On average, they considered smoked marihuana more effective than Marinol and roughly as safe [




I don't know one way or another but it is obvious you have an interest in substitutes not being a viable option.

I don't, to me they are two completely seperate topics.
 
213Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 21:20
nerve, a fair point. I'm not really comparing cigs to mj per se--just noting that there is a macro increase in exposure to carcinogens.
 
214biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 21:34
MJ use has some cancer risk (lower with bong users, but greater with heavy users). Increased use would increase risk exposure. I know that's not a popular point among the pro-grass advocates, but it's not going to go away.

I don't know where you are reading this, but all the studies I have read have been, at least to my conservative eye, inconclusive. In fact a colleague of mine recently published a case-control study of oral cancers out the registry here and showed no increased risk among marijuana users. Please cite refuting evidence, but please make it peer reviewed and from a non-advocacy group.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is some small risk of oral and lung cancer associated with marijuana use, but the evidence doesn't exist.
 
215nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Tue, Dec 14, 2004, 22:11
PD let me also say I am on record as suspecting that there are negative medical effects from continued smoking of marijuana and it's the main reason I pretty much gave it up almost 10 years ago.

 
216Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 00:11
bili--never really looked at oral cancers. Maybe it's my bias of mj users as being smokers (and deeper smokers at that). Oral cancers, from tobacco, are more often a result of chewing, yes, and not smoking?

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest on this. And I'm not going to get baited into one which involves a level of "proof" we not only both know doesn't exist but the fact that the government prevents any real studies about mj is our solid point of agreement.

MJ has carcinogens. More people using it = more people with cancer. I'm sure it's the scientist in you which requires the Mathematica Principia level of proof to make such an observation but to me it's just common sense.
 
217biliruben
      ID: 599422311
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 01:12
Ah, yes. Common sense. Trumps science every time. One theory of carcinogenesis holds that a threshold of exposure must be reached in order for it to cause cancer. If normal use of marijuana doesn't breach that threshold, than perhaps it doesn't increase risk.

I agree that you should look at all the pros and cons when considering whether consuming a substance should be worthy of prison time. We should probably stick to the facts we know, however.
 
218Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 01:20
Ha! Well, I suppose you're right. But the lack of science doesn't trump common sense either.
 
219nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 04:13
Bili:

Honest questions because I don't know the answer, have there been no studies done yet that show negative effects of MJ on for example the lungs?

Only antidotal, but I can tell you when I was a user, years ago, I had a fairly consistent hacking cough, colds dragged on, coughed up phlegm etc. Once I quit, all those symptoms disappeared.

In fairness I was a somewhat chronic user (pardon the pun) for a number of years.

This is a separate issue from whether or not a seriously ill patient should be able to take it, or even if it should be legal, I'm just curious if you've seen any studies on the subject?

In case anyone is wondering, my conspiracy theory convictions have gotten stronger since I quit, before I thought I was just paranoid...8-}

 
220Baldwin
      ID: 3611461421
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 05:27
PD #218

ROFL classic point scored PD. This has to be one of the world's shortest books; 'A little Carcinogen Can't Hurt' by Joe Liberal

But watch out for that second hand smoke. People are dropping like flys from it.

 
221Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 09:36
MBJ 48

I hate (and I don't use that word very much) judges who think it's their job to make law; but, within their discretion, enacting justice, is a judges's chief duty. Lucky for this guy, this judge had that discretion. Mandatory minmum sentences are evil.

This judge's heart and head are in the right place, but apparently not his spine.
A judge who condemned federal sentencing laws as "unjust, cruel and irrational" said Tuesday he had little choice but to sentence a first-time drug offender to 55 years and one day in prison.

U.S. District Judge Paul Cassell gave record producer Weldon Angelo the minimum 55 years for carrying a gun and one day for dealing marijuana and money laundering.

Cassell said sentencing guidelines required Angelo to serve more time than rapists, murderers or airline hijackers.

The courtroom was packed with Angelos' family, friends and supporters for what promised to be a dramatic sentencing.

Cassell made an impassioned speech against draconian sentencing laws and appeared ready to defy them, but "he wasn't willing to step out of his role to be a lawmaker," said University of Utah criminal law professor Erik Luna.

"I'm disappointed the judge didn't go the extra step," said Angelos' attorney, Jerry Mooney.

Cassell said Angelos, 24, could have gotten as many as 78 years under sentencing guidelines, but the judge imposed the minimum. Angelos' lawyer plans to appeal; if that's unsuccessful, Angelos won't be eligible for release until he's 70, the judge said.

In his reluctant ruling, Cassell said he would call on President Bush to commute Angelos's sentence and Congress to change sentencing laws for drug offenders.

"This is the most difficult case I've decided since I took the bench 2½ years ago," Cassell said.

The marijuana sales and money laundering offenses on three separate occasions subjected Angelos to about 8 years in prison. Carrying a gun while committing the crimes piled on 55 more years.

Before trial Angelos was offered a plea bargain with a 16-year sentence, but he gambled on being found innocent. Angelos denied he was carrying a gun outside his home during three drug transactions, as a confidential informant "of some disreputable background testified," Mooney said.
 
222Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 09:58
The judge did the right thing. Congress must change that law. Actually, a case like this might be a good one to challenge the MM on the grounds of "cruel and unusual punishment", though I doubt it would be successul.
 
223Baldwin
      ID: 321110159
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 10:17
I keep telling you the drug war is just price supports for the drug profit empowered power elite. They can't get the police to enforce the MJ prohibition in most cases, they can't get judges to take it seriously so they resort to mandatory sentencing.

I ask again, does anyone here support these draconian sentences? Does anyone know anyone who does? How then does this get passed by lawmakers?

The power elite make a mockery of representative democracy.
 
224sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Wed, Dec 15, 2004, 23:09
thank our "tough on crime" (also pronounced; "short on common sense"), Conservative Republican lawmakers.

IIRC, most all of these minimum mandatory sentences, grew from disgust with judges imposing apparently light/lenient sentences too often. (wouldnt want such a thing as "judicial discretion" now would we?)
 
225Tree
      ID: 510231619
      Sat, Dec 18, 2004, 10:54
Poll: Seniors Support Medical Marijuana

 
226nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Sun, Dec 19, 2004, 00:21
Tree post 225.

Nice link.

Now if the politicians would get a clue.




 
227biliruben
      ID: 3110231016
      Wed, Dec 22, 2004, 19:37
Martha Stewart sees the light.

I beseech you all to think about these women -- to encourage the American people to ask for reforms, both in sentencing guidelines, in length of incarceration for nonviolent first-time offenders, and for those involved in drug-taking. They would be much better served in a true rehabilitation center than in prison where there is no real help, no real programs to rehabilitate, no programs to educate, no way to be prepared for life "out there" where each person will ultimately find herself, many with no skills and no preparation for living.

How can Congress ignore her!! ;)
 
228Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 16:07
Excellent website for all your Canadian marijuana news and insight.

Wow, this website gives you the whole scoop of what's going on in Canada regarding cannabis.

After sifting through 6, 343 Canadian drug policy articles for 2004, it was obvious The Trouble with Interesting Headlines., is they relate far more to selling papers than telling the truth. The repetition of some headlines, topics and other reefer madness over the years is certainly not a figment of anyone's imagination.

http://www.mapinc.org/find Title search

* Up In Smoke Found 200+
* Going to Pot Found 115
* Reefer Madness Found 200+

Just glancing at headlines and leads, it is amazing how often the words "grow-ops" are preceded by the word "dangerous". They are PLANTS, for God's sake, it's not like you might accidentially "spill" them and they catch fire or explode. Come on!

This website owes its existence to The Media Awareness Project. Richard Lake does an amazing job of scouring the world for every single word writen about the Drug War and archives them. Thank you Richard, invaluable.
 
229Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 10:23
Zen is hard at work, crafting additional legislation
 
230Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 11:21

OMG. I just injured myself laughing.
 
232C.SuperFreak
      ID: 261452514
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 13:17
Just glancing at headlines and leads, it is amazing how often the words "grow-ops" are preceded by the word "dangerous". They are PLANTS, for God's sake, it's not like you might accidentially "spill" them and they catch fire or explode. Come on!

I'm guessing you are joking with that remark. I did a quick search on grow-ops in my community. Interesting stats on the number of illegal grow-ops in residential neighbourhoods.

Grow Ops Click on the drug trafficking link.

With the beef ban in effect, what alternative do these farmers have? Let em grow let em grow let em grow.
 
233C.SuperFreak
      ID: 28153260
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 20:39
Timely indeed: 5 dead at grow-op
4 police officers and 1 suspect.
 
234Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 21:15
Maybe this will be the wake up call Canada needs to realize marijuana illegality is pure foley. This does not have to happen.
 
235Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 22:44
Or maybe this will be a wake-up call to the public and drug users alike, just what sort of people they are involved with.
 
236Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 22:53
The next time you buy drugs, just remember what great guns the dealer can purchase with all that cash and just what they may be willing to do with them, and that you will share some responsibility in what they do with them.
 
237Tree
      ID: 491362715
      Thu, Mar 03, 2005, 23:04
hi, it's Sweeping Generalization Baldwin again, at your service!
 
238Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Sun, Jul 03, 2005, 14:39
Study: Smoking Marijuana Does Not Cause Lung Cancer

Just what we had expected all along: Marijuana smoking -"even heavy longterm use"- does not cause cancer of the lung, upper airwaves, or esophagus, Donald Tashkin reported at this year's meeting of the International Cannabinoid Research Society.

 
239Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sun, Jul 03, 2005, 16:57
Agenda driven science once again, at your service. If it was tobaco they were talking about they'd be finding that being around people who are merely thinking of lighting up gives you cancer.
 
240WiddleAvi
      ID: 65101619
      Sun, Jul 03, 2005, 20:07
Agenda driven science once again, at your service. If it was tobaco they were talking about they'd be finding that being around people who are merely thinking of lighting up gives you cancer.

This coming from the person who keeps posting any site that will agree with his opinion on Euthanasia
 
241nerveclinic
      ID: 3454230
      Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 04:37


Zen you're not suggesting that there are no negative side effects to MJ consumption are you?

I'm assuming you are just posting one particular study.

I know from my own experience that during heavy use I went through long periods with a heavy, phlegmy cough. When I caught colds they would often last for weeks when now at twice the age they last for days.

I'm not suggesting there is evidence that MJ causes cancer but to deny there are health consequences is naive at best, addiction denial at worst.

Since you've posted this positive health study, may I ask, have you experienced any negative effects of MJ?

This is being asked by someone who of course believes it should be legal and sold as readily as Vodka.

 
242Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 12:48
My post is simple, there is not correlation between marijuana usage and lung cancer.

I never would say that its usage has no health consequences. Anecdotally, I have not experienced any phlem or nasty colds, however I do not extrapolate my experiences into scientific claims.
 
243nerveclinic
      ID: 3454230
      Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 12:57
Interesting the same researcher has proven in the past that... Over the years, Tashkin's lab at UCLA has produced irrefutable evidence of the damage that marijuana smoke wreaks on bronchial tissue.

So hurrah, so far we can't prove it causes cancer, just that it causes damage to the bronchial tissue, that's great...I guess.
 
244nerveclinic
      ID: 3454230
      Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 13:04
Agenda driven science once again, at your service. If it was tobaco they were talking about they'd be finding that being around people who are merely thinking of lighting up gives you cancer.

Dude you really have egg on your face on this one. Once again you prove how reactionary you are. Did you even bother reading the article???

* The researcher at UCLA has been conucting studies on MJ for decades and has proven that it does cause health problems.

* His studies have been sited by the Drug Czar as evidence that MJ is harmful.

* He set out with a hypothosis that long term MJ use causes cancer, that's what this scientist believed going into the study.

* This was a large, detailed study and contrary to your from the hip statement that it was agenda driven, the researcher believed going in that MJ did cause cancer.

Why should anyone take your posts seriously when you make such asine comments without even bothering to read the study/article?

Do you have no concern for your credibility?

YOU are the one with an agenda, and you've never let the facts get in the way of it.

 
245nerveclinic
      ID: 3454230
      Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 13:10
By the way 244 was directed at Baldwin in response to post 239 in case that wasn't clear.
 
246Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 14:36
Burning the candle at both ends this week. There is something just so perverse with people so self-righteous they would like to rip the cigarette out of the lips of every stranger they see, then turning around and imagining a utopia where everyone was smoking MJ. Ta'dah science says that smoke is like health food.

There are some things that are just unhealthy. Chlorine in products. Carbonized smoke products. Grilling your food gives you cancer for that matter. Why would burning MJ not be carcinogenic. Don't bet your house on any study that doesn't find that link. There is good reason he expected it going in and better reason to keep looking, try a bigger sample.
 
247nerveclinic
      ID: 3454230
      Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 15:27


I will grant you Baldwin that a future study may find differently. (Perhaps by this same scientist)

Your mistake was to shoot form the hip and label this "scientific study" agenda driven.

The author has found MJ causes health problems. Did go into the study expecting to prove it causes cancer. His studies in the past have been used by the Drug Czar to prove MJ harmful.

Try not to let YOUR agenda come on here and discredit a legitamite study/scientist.

But then you never let science get in the way of your agenda...

 
248Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 21:42


Canadian police acting under orders from US officials raided the headquarters of the British Columbia Marijuana Party (BCMP) in Vancouver today (Friday, July 22)

This is horrible news. It just gnaws on Christian social conservatives that our freindly neighbor to the north allows a man like Marc Emery to pursue life, liberty and happiness in contradiction to our draconian drug laws.

The issue of selective prosecution is also raised by insiders who note that US and Canadian officials are aware of massive cross-border organized crime operations that involve guns, hard drugs, and other illegality on a scale that dwarfs Emery's marijuana seed business. And yet it's Emery, who donates all the money he earns to non-profit pro-marijuana causes, who is targeted in an unprecedented raid ordered by the US.

Disent will not be tolerated.
 
249Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 21:55
I'll have to check the true story tomorrow because Canadian police do not act under orders from U.S. officials.

I should note that the social conservative party in Canada, the Conservatives, is not against MJ decriminalization. The law on that subject, promised, what, a year-and-a-half ago? maybe more, hasn't gone through just because the Liberals are gutless. The Conservatives have squabbled only about the amount of MJ that a single person can hold.

Toral
 
250Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Sat, Jul 30, 2005, 13:54
True, I should have qualified my rant with "American Christian social conservatives".

It's true: Uncle Sam orchestrates Vancouver pot busts

The search was requested by the U.S. government through the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act, a federal law administered by the Department of Justice.

The warrant was authorized Thursday in B.C.'s Supreme Court, based on an affidavit provided by a Vancouver police officer.

U.S. authorities say the warrant was the result of an 18-month investigation of Emery's international seed-selling business.

Sullivan said Emery is facing a maximum sentence of life in prison.
 
251Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Sat, Jul 30, 2005, 19:46
Ok, so how do you further edit that to exclude me?
 
252Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Sun, Jul 31, 2005, 12:56
You are not "of this Earth", okay.
 
253Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Aug 04, 2005, 04:37
One More Red Pill

[it's the same in every country, it's the way of evil]

High Irish government officials and ex-officials and relatives of high government officials in charge of the drug trade of Ireland.

Corrupt police act as enforcers.

Reporters who expose too much end up fired and/or murdered.

The assassins are discovered but let out of custody and never see a courtroom again.

The assassins get government five star kid glove treatment in their getaway.

This particular case inspired the movie 'Veronica Guerin' staring Cate Blanchett'.

Why can't the government stop the drug trade? The government is the drug trade, or at least an evil and powerful subset of the government with the upper hand.
 
254Matt S
      ID: 466492412
      Fri, Aug 05, 2005, 12:16
This whole Emery thing has the Canadian public outraged. Not only at the US, but at the RCMP for carrying out a US warrant.

Add that to the pending sale of Terasen Gas (formerly the crown corporation BC Gas) to an Arizona company.

There's plenty of Anti-American sentiment going around.
 
255biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Aug 05, 2005, 13:25
DEA head's head up her butt

The heavy hand is nothing new. U.S. drug policy chief John Walters visited Vancouver in 2002. He warned Mayor Philip Owen that crossing the border would get tougher if the city adopted a drug policy based upon tolerance and treatment.

"It was the most unsatisfactory meeting of my life," Owen said. "The pressure was intense."

Owen was succeeded by current Vancouver Mayor Larry Campbell. A former coroner and drug squad cop, Campbell wants to legalize -- and tax -- marijuana.

"Drug czars are the most ill-informed people in government ... They are still living in an era of 'Reefer Madness,' " Campbell said in a recent interview, referring to the much-lampooned 1930s movie. He was named this week to the Canadian Senate.

Vancouver has adopted a "Four Pillars" approach to drug use: Treatment, harm reduction, prevention and enforcement.

By contrast, Karen Tandy is a Justice Department hard-liner who, in the words of Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, "doesn't seem amenable to listening."
 
256Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Fri, Aug 05, 2005, 13:40
On a lighter note, this excerpt from the obituary of barrister Paddy Pakenham
During his legal career, Pakenham became something of a legend, and, 25 years on, accounts of his exploits are still current. During his appearance before an irascible and unpopular judge in a drugs case, the evidence, a bag of cannabis, was produced. The judge, considering himself an expert on the subject, said to Pakenham, with whom he had clashed during the case: "Come on, hand the exhibit up to me quickly." Then he proceeded to open the package. Inserting the contents in his mouth, he chewed it and announced: "Yes, yes of course that is cannabis. Where was the substance found, Mr Pakenham?" The reply came swiftly, if inaccurately: "In the defendant's anus, my Lord."


More, OT, from the obit:
Pakenham's final appearance in court has been variously recorded. As defence counsel in a complicated fraud case, he was due to address the court during the afternoon session, and had partaken of a particularly well-oiled lunch.

"Members of the jury," he began, "it is my duty as defence counsel to explain the facts of this case on my client's behalf; the Judge will guide you and advise you on the correct interpretation of the law and you will then consider your verdict. Unfortunately," Pakenham went on, "for reasons which I won't go into now, my grasp of the facts is not as it might be. The judge is nearing senility; his knowledge of the law is pathetically out of date, and will be of no use in assisting you to reach a verdict. While by the look of you, the possibility of you reaching a coherent verdict can be excluded." He was led from the court.
Toral



 
257Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Aug 05, 2005, 14:11
I love that guy. 8]
 
258Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Sun, Aug 07, 2005, 12:56
 
259Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Aug 08, 2005, 01:25
Marc Emery, Marc Emery, and more Marc Emery.
 
260Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Tue, Aug 09, 2005, 10:44
FAMED for the biggest trees in the world, Sequoia National Park is now No. 1 in another flora department: marijuana growing, with more land carved up by pot growers than any other park.


The cartels dispatch their troops down isolated roads in steep terrain in February and March. Growers bushwhack a couple of miles into the woods, carrying 25-pound tanks of propane, 50-pound sacks of fertilizer, pesticides and hoes. Periodic food drops supplement poached animals. The farmers clear the understory of foliage, leaving a canopy for camouflage; they cut terraces in the slopes, run irrigation hoses from creeks and rivers for miles and carve out a sprawling camp. For every five acres of marijuana, a grower will develop 180 acres of wilderness.

This is horrific and has to stop. We've sent 60 helicopters to Colombia to kill poor peasants and yet we can't afford one to save a national park?
 
261Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Aug 17, 2005, 23:42
Marc Emery's powerful first person account of his ordeal.

It was clear the potential penalties were severe if I were to be extradited and prosecuted in the US, probably a life imprisonment. Under Drug Kingpin legislation, selling over 60,000 seeds qualifies for the death penalty in the United States. The manufacture or distribution of 60,000 kilograms of marijuana, 60,000 plants or 60,000 seeds all are included in death penalty provisions of the medieval law passed by a Newt Gingrich congress. I would be the first person under this recent law who could qualify to be executed for the activity I have clearly done with the tacit approval of everyone in Canada.
 
262Seattle Zen
      ID: 179472013
      Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 19:57
B.C.'s "Prince of Pot" fights extradition on drug charges

Unlike others accused of drug dealing, Emery has for years made no effort to hide the fact he earns his living from marijuana, making millions selling marijuana seeds and paraphernalia through his Vancouver store and the Internet. It's that marijuana-centered business that has landed Emery in hot water in the U.S., where a Seattle-based grand jury has indicted him and two of his employees on drug and money-laundering charges.

 
263Seattle Zen
      ID: 179472013
      Tue, Nov 01, 2005, 20:41
Pass the pot, Dad.

"It was a little weird, seeing my parents stoned," Tom confesses.
 
264Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Nov 02, 2005, 10:07
Denver Voters OK Marijuana Possession

the people speak!
 
265sarge33rd
      ID: 148422311
      Wed, Nov 02, 2005, 10:14
not to worry Tree. With the publication of that info, Herr Shrub will have his DEA fellas goose-stepping into town shortly.
 
266Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Wed, Nov 02, 2005, 10:35
With the publication of that info, Herr Shrub will have his DEA fellas goose-stepping into town shortly.

Wanna bet?
 
267Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 18:54
Denver marijuana bust headed to court

The Feds didn't have to come, Sarge, the locals were doing the job themselves. But for how long...?
Eric Footer, a 39-year-old real estate consultant, was pulled over by city police and cited under state law for possessing less than an ounce of cannabis. Footer allowed the cops to search his car, even though he knew he had a small amount of marijuana in his possession because he thought Denver voters had made it legal to possess a small amount. While most people would simply pay the fine, Footer contacted Safer Alternative For Enjoyable Recreation (SAFER), the organization that got the initiative on the ballot to begin with, and asked them for help in fighting the charges.

Intriguing. I'm not so sure about those defenses, but I hope they win.
 
268biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 19:07
Another possible defense could be that Denver is a home rule city and has the right to institute its own laws. However, lawmakers say laws can only be strengthened, not weakened, as they say the case is here.

Is that true just for Colorado, or all states? How do you define "strengthened"?

Seems like it is quite an ambigious and silly rule.
 
269Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 21:32
UMass professor says government mary jane is weak man, just weak.

Wants to grow it himself for research, but the Man says no. The ACLU is defending him.

Here's a decent medical marijuana site for good measure.

pd
 
270Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Thu, Dec 29, 2005, 13:46
Colorado is the hotbed of marijuana activism right now!

State initiative next step for marijuana activists.
Marijuana advocates vowed from the Capitol steps Wednesday to put a statewide measure legalizing adult pot possession on Colorado's November ballot and mobilize an army of voters to pass it.

The statewide campaign is fueled by outrage over Denver authorities' rejection of Initiative 100, said Mason Tvert, campaign director for the initiative's sponsor, Safer Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation.

The Colorado Alcohol-Marijuana Equalization Initiative is put on by SAFER, the group that passed I-100 in Denver last November without much mainstream support. I wonder what the poll numbers look like outside of Denver/Boulder. In this article, Tvert lays out his appeal to rural voters.
Now, Tvert already appears to be reaching out to Colorado's more conservative voters outside Denver by pitching the statewide measure as "a big issue of local rights and home-rule. If this initiative passes, it's not going to suddenly make marijuana completely legal for all adults in Colorado," Tvert stressed. "All home-rule cities and towns in Colorado, which is about 90 percent of the state's population, will have the ability to fine or penalize marijuana users if that's what they want to do. But in cities such as Denver, where . . . voters have chosen to allow residents to make the rational decision to use marijuana instead of alcohol, state law will no longer force police and prosecutors to punish marijuana users," he added.

Tvert acknowledged that because the initiative will only amend drug statutes, not the Colorado Constitution, state lawmakers simply could overturn its passage.

I don't know where on the spectrum the CO legislature lands. Even if the measure passes and is immediately overturned, I consider it a victory. It would be the first time a state has voted to legalize. Good luck, guys.
 
271Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Jan 03, 2006, 16:22
Rhode Island Legalizes Medical Marijuana
 
272Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Tue, Jan 03, 2006, 22:41
The House overrode a veto by Gov. Don Carcieri, 59-13

Nice.
 
273Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Sun, Jan 15, 2006, 13:44
Is the marijuana movement the second coming of the Christ spirit?

Of course. That's what Baldwin has been preaching for years!

Great story on the "Tree of Life" in the Book of Revelations. Some believe this "tree" is cannabis.

This Jesus is an ecstatic rebel sage who preached enlightenment through rituals involving sex and drugs, and who threatened the violent overthrow of the status-quo of the time.

Hmm, getting interesting.
"Sorcery is a religious system of control and exploitation which operates by restricting knowledge of and access to drugs to a ruling priesthood. This ruling class uses its secret knowledge not to protect the people and culture, as is supposed, but rather to maintain power and to exploit unwary believers. In order to maintain power they must institute certain laws, called taboos, which prevent the common people from gaining free access to certain herbs, drugs, and knowledge. In order to maintain power this ruling class must eliminate those who do not believe in their power or submit to their rules. It is this system of exploitation and control that is referred to in the Bible as sorcery. Almost no modern-day Christians are aware that the name of their faith makes reference to a psychoactive topical ointment that was rich in cannabis, or that many early Christians used a variety of other entheogens to achieve spiritual ecstasy."

When we were naked, hemp clothed us with the fibers of her stalk.

When we were hungry, hemp fed us with the protein and essential fatty acid rich oils of her seeds.

When we wanted to record our thoughts and share them with others, hemp offered us the paper to do it with.

When we wanted to explore the world, hemp offered us the sails and ropes for the ships as well as the caulking for the boats that made it possible.

When we were dying of AIDS, vomiting from chemotherapy, going blind from glaucoma, shaking from epilepsy, hemp offered us a natural medicine that eased our pain and treated our maladies.

And when we sought a means of communion, the joint was passed and the sacred circle formed.


Guess I have been holding my own communion ceremony on Sundays here at home all these years.
 
274Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 19:44
The Committee to Regulate and Control Marijuana, the group putting on the Nevada initiative, now has a blog.

Campaigning for the initiative — on the November 2006 ballot in Nevada — that would remove all penalties for marijuana use by adults aged 21 and older, as well as create a system for the legal cultivation, distribution, and sale of marijuana to adults.

Good stuff.
 
275Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 12:03
Re 267 - VICTORY

The city on Wednesday dismissed a pot possession charge against the first person arrested after Denver voters backed a measure legalizing small amounts of marijuana.

The prosecutor said the search was bad (which it was) and that is the reason he tossed the case. A victory is a victory and a huge headline as well. I hope everyone fights their marijuana charges in Denver like this, those prosecutors need to listen to the will of the people.
 
276Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 13:36
That is a nice vitory Zen. "I don't believe it had to do with problems with the search," said Mason Tvert, campaign director for Safer Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation. "We believe it had to do with the pressure put on the city by people who voted in this initiative."

Twer's right; there was no problem with that search - it was conented to. The Prosecutor chickened out. Good.

Howeever, was it necessary that the D show up for Court obviously stoned?



 
277Mark L
      ID: 41149914
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 13:40
Both of those guys are wasted. Their eyes are open a total of about one-eighth inch between the both of them.
 
278Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 13:43
They are going out for some celebratory Doritos.
 
279Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 14:26
MBJ

Things may be different in KY, they may be different in CO, but in WA, the search was bad because the Def. was "in custody" when he was ordered out of his car and patted down. In WA, if the average person felt he was not "free to go" when dealing with the police, he is then considered in custody. You must be read your Miranda warnings before you can consent to a search while "in custody". So in WA, the cannabis would be supressed.

As for what is in the client's bloodstream while he is in court, well... :)
 
280Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 14:59
Things may be different in KY, they may be different in CO, but in WA, the search was bad because the Def. was "in custody" when he was ordered out of his car and patted down.

It was an investigatory stop that turned into a "Terry" pat down (due to the suspicious activity of the driver - dropping his keys or whatever - being enough to give the officer a particular suspicion to allow for a Terry pat down); that search would have stood up in any jurisdiction - unless the Judge was high. Maybe we're both supplying different facts to fill in the blanks that such an article inevitably leaves in descibing the incident - but looks good to me. :)

MarkL wanna play Judge and render a ruling on Zen's weakazz Motion to Suppress?

But let's not detract from the main point. If the search was bad - the "victory" is greatly diminished.
 
281Mark L
      ID: 41149914
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 15:10
Unfortunately I can't beg off for the reason stated in MBJ 180, so I have to rely on a straight-up plea of ignorance. I remember Terry v. Ohio from con law but 1967 is about as recent as I get on search-and-seizure precedents.
 
282Seattle Zen
      ID: 91152620
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 15:26
I'm telling you, WA caselaw makes that search bad. It's my bread and butter, I knows my laws, homey.

And yes, it tarnishes the gleen on the victory.
 
283Mark L
      ID: 41149914
      Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 15:31
Should be 280, not 180. Maybe I am wrecked.

And although I may be unqualified to opine on federal S&S law, I would be even worse on the rules in any given state.
 
284nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Sat, Jan 21, 2006, 04:57
Zen And when we sought a means of communion, the joint was passed and the sacred circle formed.

Guess I have been holding my own communion ceremony on Sundays here at home all these years.


OK first of all you sound like a complete hippy.

Second your blowing cannabis way out of proportion, Frat boys have made the same analogy concerning beer bongs.

Third, if a casual observer didn't know better they could read the above post and think you've smoked way too much of the stuff to the point your hallucinating on a grandiose scale.


Don't you think you are "blowing" it's effects a bit out of proportion?


8-}

 
285biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Sat, Jan 21, 2006, 11:48
Beats most religions.
 
286Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 13:16
The Committee to Regulate and Control Marijuana opened its office in Las Vegas on Monday, officially kicking off its second statewide campaign to legalize possession of the weed by adults.

Vegas would become just that much more fun.
 
287Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Wed, Mar 01, 2006, 20:04
Marc Emery to be on "Sixty Minutes" this Sunday.

CBS's most awarded journalist Bob Simon investigates the story of Marc Emery, The Prince of Pot.

On Sunday, March 5th at 7.00 p.m. in all time zones across North America, CBS News flagship program 60 Minutes will air the story of Marc Emery, Canada's Prince of Pot.

The segment will examine Emery's lifelong battle against prohibition and his unique strategy to accomplish that aim – by selling marijuana seeds around the world. The episode will be seen by approximately twelve to fourteen million viewers across Canada and the United States.

Prestigious CBS journalist Bob Simon interviewed Marc Emery and others, including the Drug Enforcement Administration and Canadian police, to delve into Emery's current predicament of facing extradition to the USA for a prison term of possibly 30 years or more.
 
288Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 14:15
Marc Emery, Canadians Find the 'Prince of Pot' Harmless. The DEA Begs to Differ.
 
289Seattle Zen
      ID: 3415339
      Wed, Apr 12, 2006, 10:19


South Dakotans for Medical Marijuana

Well, you can't get an abortion in the state but hopefully you will be able to treat your glaucoma.
 
290Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 15:50
Conviction of 'ganja guru' up in smoke

A federal appeals court Wednesday overturned the conviction of "ganja guru" Ed Rosenthal and ordered a new trial, saying a juror tainted the case by seeking the advice of a lawyer before the verdict.
 
291Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 16:33
This is probably a silly question, but the article says that this was a "felony conviction" but that he was sentenced to the minimum of "one day." I thought felonies were a minimum of one year in prison?
 
292Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, May 25, 2006, 16:44
People who smoke marijuana may be at less risk of developing lung cancer than tobacco smokers, according to a new study.

There have been studies saying this for awhile now, so this is not news to me. There is something out there that is waiting to drop if only scientists were given some funding to do the study. You heard it here first, but some day you will read this headline:

Smoking marijuana helps prevent lung cancer

People who smoke cannabis and have never smoked tobacco have less incidence of lung cancer than people who have never smoked anything. This has been shown in two studies but the sample sizes were too small to make the definitive conclusion. When this is shown it will BLOW the drug war zealots' arguments out of the water. Decades of demonization of marijuana will have to end because it will be shown as good for you.

What surprises me is how little we know about lung cancer. No one knows exactly how lung cancer is caused. We know that smoking causes the risk of its formation to increase exponentially, but what in the cigarettes causes this? Perhaps if we knew we could create a tobacco cigarette that does not lead to death. It might not taste as "good" (uck!) but limiting the hundreds of thousands of tobacco related annual deaths would be great, no?
 
293Sludge
      ID: 14411118
      Thu, May 25, 2006, 18:38
This has been shown in two studies but the sample sizes were too small to make the definitive conclusion. (Emphasis added.)

Errr...

Do I really need say more?
 
294nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Sat, May 27, 2006, 01:03
ZEN People who smoke cannabis and have never smoked tobacco have less incidence of lung cancer than people who have never smoked anything.

That's absurd and I don't buy it. You don't need to go into these illogical arguments to justify legalization so why go there?

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

absurd and illogical

sorry the return key is stuck...



 
295Perm Dude
      ID: 16420277
      Sat, May 27, 2006, 12:36
That study wasn't funded by the Tobacco Institute by any chance, was it?
 
296Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sat, May 27, 2006, 14:19
Nerve, it could very well be absurd and illogical yet true.

Why would the Tabacco Institute fund a study that highlights the cancerousness of cigarettes?
 
297Perm Dude
      ID: 16420277
      Sat, May 27, 2006, 16:38
MJ has many of the same carcinogens as tobacco. Anything which shows those carcinogens as not actually causing cancer in people is good news for tobacco as well.
 
298Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Sun, May 28, 2006, 00:48
Saw an interesting show on the History Channel today. Seems that MJ was originally banned in the late 30's as part of an attempt by Southwestern states to deal with what they perceived as an immigration problem from Mexico. Immigrants smoked pot, businesses wanted Mexicans deported, therefore ban MJ. Anyway, there was a federal drug agency even then that launched a jihad, the remnants of which are responsible for the ill-considered bans in place today.

What really gets me is that there has never been any evidence that MJ is dangerous, causes users to crave more potent drugs (a key element in Justice Dept's original reasoning), or does anything other than create a mild high in most of the people who smoke it.

I'm beginning to buy into the reasoning of the 1960's, which claimed that the only reason the government wants to ban any drugs is that some of them make people feel good, and thereby might possibly encourage them to ignore the government.

Don
 
299nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Sun, May 28, 2006, 01:55
I am for the complete legalization of MJ and think it should be as easy to buy as chewing gum.

That having been said, to suggest there are no health risks is delusional.

I know from my past, at times heavy use (15 years ago) that it effects the lungs. I would get chest colds that would last for 3-4 weeks, once I quit those symptoms stopped. I knew the length of the cold was not normal and I knew it was the MJ. Let me be clear I was a very heavy user.

I had chronic (pardon the pun) phlegmy coughing, once I quit that symptom disappeared.

To suggest that heavy use has no effect on the lungs/health at all is in my opinion absurd. How serious the health effects I have no idea.

I'm not saying it causes cancer but I know from personal experience that heavy use does effect the lungs.

Or was I just hallucinating the symptoms?



 
300Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, May 28, 2006, 16:23
Nerve

There is a difference between a decrease in fatal cancers and an increase in coughing. I was speaking of the former, not the latter. What if a doctor wanted to study the incidence of "colds" amongst smokers? The US government's policy has been downright dictatorial - it is not going to happen. If you are a right wing zealot who wants to show how harmful marijuana is, you can use some of the ditchweed swag Uncle Sam is growing in MS. Want to hurt your lungs, smoke one of those joints.

But there is a doctor in MA is is suing the Gov't for the right to grow his own for medicial research. Here's a story of Dr. Lyle Cracker and his fight with the Feds over the right to grow his own.

You need to register with the Globe to read the story, so I'll cut and paste it here.

Research on the medicinal benefits of marijuana may depend on good gardening--and some say Uncle Sam, the country's only legal grower of the cannabis plant, isn't much of a green thumb.

By Jessica Winter | May 28, 2006

LYLE CRAKER HAS a number of plants on his mind. An agronomist and professor in the Department of Plant, Soil & Insect Sciences at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, he's currently analyzing the active ingredients in black cohosh, which is used to alleviate symptoms of menopause. He is also studying goldenseal, a native American plant that shows promise as a treatment for some skin irritations, and exploring the possibility that certain Chinese medicinal plants could be cultivated in Massachusetts for research purposes.
Article Tools

There is another medicinal plant that Craker would like to grow and study, but in this instance, his prospects will be determined in a courtroom. Since 2001, Craker has been seeking a license from the Drug Enforcement Administration to establish a medical-marijuana growth facility at UMass-Amherst. It would be the second such facility in the US; at present, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, a federal agency, produces the only legal supply of cannabis in the country at the University of Mississippi.

The DEA lists cannabis as a Schedule I drug, meaning that it has a high potential for abuse and no accepted medical uses. However, marijuana is unique on the Schedule I roster-which also includes cocaine, LSD, and MDMA (Ecstasy)-as the only substance that is not available from multiple independent producers for clinical research purposes.

``There are two issues here: quality and access," says Rick Doblin, the Belmont-based founder and president of the nonprofit Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), which is sponsoring Craker's suit against the DEA. The government holds that its Mississippi operation obviates the need for a second crop. Craker and MAPS counter that NIDA cultivates a product of poor quality and does not make it readily available to qualified researchers, and point to NIDA's previous refusals to supply cannabis to two scientists with FDA-approved protocols as grounds for establishing an independent facility.

On April 20, the Food and Drug Administration released a controversial statement declaring that marijuana ``has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States." The outcome of Craker's case-especially if it reaches federal court, as is likely-could realign the terms of the national debate over medical marijuana. For now, the suit, which has the expressed support of Senators Edward Kenedy and John Kerry, as well as 38 members of the House of Representatives, is in the hands of DEA Administrative Law Judge Mary Ellen Bittner, who's expected to make her recommendation to the agency on the application sometime this summer. Final briefs were filed on May 8.

There is abundant anecdotal evidence and personal testimony to support myriad uses of cannabis to treat symptoms of cancer, AIDS, multiple sclerosis, and other ailments. As the FDA reiterated in its statement, however, scant clinical evidence exists to back these claims-or, for that matter, to contradict them. Paradoxically, the controls on official research of cannabis in America undermine both the medical-marijuana movement's efforts to prove the drug's benefits and the government's assertions of its dangers. Strangely enough, the case for pharmaceutical cannabis may, in the end, come down to good gardening-and may depend on whether the government is willing to give up its monopoly on marijuana.

. . .

Cannabis sativa was once widely recommended by American physicians as a mild sedative, much as the popular herbal treatments valerian and camomile are used today. By 1937, however, the drug had been effectively outlawed by the Marihuana Tax Act. The Federal Bureau of Narcotics had aggressively pursued this ban with Congress, and cited marijuana's perceived popularity as a smoked narcotic among Mexican farm laborers, hysterical tabloid reports on its deranging effects, and results from tests on canine subjects.

Punishments for pot-related offenses remained light into the 1980s, and President Carter favored decriminalization. It wasn't until the War on Drugs gathered momentum midway through the Reagan administration that penalties became fearsome enough to drive marijuana growers indoors-which, it turned out, was the best possible place for a cannabis plant to thrive. In ``The Botany of Desire: A Plant's Eye View of the World" (2001), author Michael Pollan has an epiphany while visiting a ``grow room" run by an acquaintance. ``[I]t dawned on me," he writes, ``that this was what the best gardeners of my generation had been doing all these years: They had been underground, perfecting cannabis."

From the standpoint of both the scientist and the connoisseur, perfect cannabis can be achieved with unseeded, genetically identical female plants. The original crop is harvested from seeds, and subsequent generations are bred from cuttings. Characterized by the ``buds" from which marijuana derives one of its many slang names, these virgin female plants carry high levels of molecules unique to the cannabis plant, called cannabinoids. The two most well-understood cannabinoids are THC and CBD, which many physicians and patients believe can alleviate nausea, stimulate appetite, ease pain and anxiety, and lessen the muscle stiffness and spasms associated with MS.

In the UK, the GW Pharmaceuticals company has a government license to grow cannabis under highly regulated conditions. At a secret location in southern England, in greenhouses that are computer-controlled for temperature, humidity, and light, the GW research team has compiled a veritable library of plant strains, with precisely determined ratios of cannabinoid content.

The upshot is Sativex, a liquid extract of equal parts THC and CBD that is sprayed under the tongue to treat neuropathic pain. Britain permits the use of Sativex in MS patients, and the drug has been approved for marketing in Canada. Cannabinoids also have a presence on the US market, in the recently approved Cesamet, a synthetic cannabinoid, and in Marinol, a THC extract in pill form that the FDA approved back in 1985. But Marinol contains no CBD, and ingested THC is metabolized differently from smoked marijuana-the palliative effects take much longer to kick in, and the psychoactive effects are far stronger.

Craker's intentions for a Massachusetts site are similar to the GW template: an indoor facility housing female clones, with strains made to order for researchers according to exact cannabinoid content. In contrast to the methods practiced by GW and by America's outlaw gardeners, however, NIDA grows the majority of its marijuana outdoors, under conditions that result in unwanted pollination and, according to some users, a harsh product. The Institute harvested its most recent marijuana crop in Mississippi in 2002, and stockpiled the supply in vaults and freezers. Cannabinoid content of NIDA pot is highly variable, and a THC potency of 6 to 8 percent is about as high as researchers can hope for. By contrast, Canada distributes medical marijuana to patients at 12.5 percent, and medical marijuana in the Netherlands ranges from 13 to 18 percent potency.

``I've spoken to patients who have used [NIDA marijuana], and they've said it's everything from worthless to other descriptions I should not use," Craker says. ``The patient has to smoke one cigarette after the other to get any effective relief from pain." Ethan Russo, a neurologist and now a senior medical adviser to GW Pharmaceuticals, conducted patient studies with NIDA marijuana and reported, ``A close inspection of the contents of NIDA-supplied cannabis cigarettes reveals them to be a crude mixture of leaf with abundant stem and seed components.. . .The resultant smoke is thick, acrid, and pervasive."

Then again, it's not in NIDA's job description-or even, perhaps, in NIDA's interests-to grow a world-class marijuana crop. The institute's director, Nora Volkow, has stressed that it's ``not NIDA's mission to study the medicinal use of marijuana or to advocate for the establishment of facilities to support this research." Since NIDA's stated mission ``is to lead the Nation in bringing the power of science to bear on drug abuse and addiction," federally supported marijuana research will logically tilt toward the potential harms, not benefits, of cannabis.

Under these circumstances, evidence in support of medical marijuana tends to materialize as a byproduct, not a primary goal, of official research. For example, Donald Tashkin of UCLA intended to demonstrate via a NIDA-supported study that marijuana smoke increases the risk of lung and upper-airways cancer. But the findings of the study, announced this past week, indicate that heavy marijuana smokers actually show lower cancer rates than tobacco smokers, indirectly supporting claims by medical-marijuana proponents for the tumor-inhibiting properties of cannabinoids.

. . .

At the moment, federal law prohibits pot cultivation even in those states (11 at last count) that have passed medical-marijuana referenda. In 1996, Californians voted in favor of the Compassionate Use Act, also known as Proposition 215, which permitted the use and cultivation of marijuana by qualified patients. According to the act, patients with a referral from a physician can obtain medical marijuana from one of some 200 dispensaries or ``buyers' clubs," which procure their high-grade stock from tucked-away farms and discreet greenhouses. Despite the ever present threat of a crackdown from the federal government, these companies are thriving-some clubs even offer their employees healthcare benefits and 401(k) plans-and have created a market for medical marijuana.

``For evidence in support of the healthy competition fostered by a marketplace economy, you need only to look at the quality of marijuana available in California," says Mark Blumenthal, who directs the nonprofit American Botanical Council of Austin, Texas. ``Pluralism and economic competition are good for the consumer. We generally don't allow and empower monopolies in our culture-it's contrary to the tenets of our economic system."

The invocation of a government monopoly on marijuana helps to explain the strange bedfellows on the pro-cannabis side of this issue. The conservative historian Richard Brookhiser and the late Reagan aide Lyn Nofziger both spoke out in favor of medical marijuana, and supporters of Craker's suit against the DEA include not only several nurses' associations and the United Methodist Church but Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform and a staunch defender of small government and an unfettered free market.

``The use of controlled substances for legitimate research purposes is well-established, and has yielded a number of miracle medicines widely available to patients and doctors," Norquist wrote in his letter of support. ``This case should be no different. It's in the public interest to end the government monopoly on marijuana legal for research."

Given Norquist's many successes on the lobbying circuit, perhaps all medical marijuana needs is a new pitch man.
 
301biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sun, May 28, 2006, 18:03
Do you know what journal, Zen? I can't find it.
 
302nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Sun, May 28, 2006, 19:18


If you are a right wing zealot who wants to show how harmful marijuana is, you can use some of the ditchweed swag Uncle Sam is growing in MS. Want to hurt your lungs, smoke one of those joints.

I assure you I smoked only the best.

 
303Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 374522815
      Sat, Jun 24, 2006, 08:39
Mich. Supreme Court rules blood test showing marijuana smoked weeks ago can be used in court.
That joint you smoked four weeks ago could come back to haunt you under a ruling by the Michigan Supreme Court.

In a 4-3 vote, the court ruled that motorists can be prosecuted for driving under the influence of drugs if they test positive for any trace of marijuana, including a metabolized remnant that experts say can stay in a person's system for weeks after the smoke.


The ruling stemmed from two cases. In the first case, a woman admitting smoking marijuana four hours before she crossed into oncoming traffic on a snowy road, striking another vehicle. That car's front-seat passenger was killed and three children were injured. In the second case, a man stopped for erratic driving admitted smoking marijuana 30 minutes before.

In both cases, blood tests found 11 carboxy-THC, a byproduct created when the human body metabolizes marijuana. The ruling turned on the court's interpretation of the law that prohibits driving under the influence of drugs.

The four justices in the majority -- Maura Corrigan, Stephen Markman, Clifford Taylor and Robert Young -- concluded that 11 carboxy-THC is a drug under the law even though experts testified that it has "no pharmacological effect on the body and its level in the blood correlates poorly, if at all, to an individual's level of THC-related impairment."

 
304Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 20:37
Marc Emery marries.
 
305C1-NRB
      ID: 5131158
      Tue, Jul 25, 2006, 11:39
Every time I see this thread subject it makes me think of the old Saturday morning current events blurb they stuck between the cartoons called "In the News."

I can hear the narrator's voice saying, "Marijuana, in the news." after some overly somber fluff piece.
 
306Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 12:12
Re: 289

South Dakota got it's MMJ measure on the ballot, but the Attorney General wrote up terribly biased language for the ballot.

A judge will hold a hearing next week on whether the wording of a South Dakota ballot measure seeking to legalize medicinal marijuana should be more neutral.
 
307walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 12:56
Hey SZ, don't miss the season premiere of "Weeds" tonight on Showtime. Excellent series, with MJ as the back-drop.

- walk
 
308Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 14:43
someone who watches that show, PLEASE record it for me. i don't have cable.

one of my best friends on the planet had one of her songs chosen to be on the show (and subsequent second volume of the soundtrack) tonight.
 
309walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 16:42
Right, but if I record it on my DVR (high def DVR!), how are you going to see it? You comin' over? Hanging with the kids and the wife? She's about as comfy as me inviting an internet colleague as we'd be inviting a fellow we met sleeping on the subway platform. I have not used a VCR in 3-4 years!

- walk
 
310Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Mon, Aug 14, 2006, 17:06
lol. stupid modern conveniences.

anyway, when a song called "F*ck was I" comes on, give it a gentle applause, at it is my friend, future superstar, Jenny Owen Youngs.

aside from the fact i want to see my friend succeed, i have a vested interest in her career as she promised me a yacht when she was rich and famous.

now, i did not ask for a Yacht, just one day she blurted that out that for all my help, she would one day buy me a yacht.

that's just the kind of girl in a catholic school girl uniform she is...
 
311walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Aug 15, 2006, 09:48
I heard that song loud & clear last night, Tree. It was early on in the episode, and of course, very funny. A dear friend of yours...how cool!

I am glad your bud got this break and attention..."Weeds" is very good, and Mary Louise Parker is a stud actor. It's only season #2, but we've not missed a show. I wish your buddy Jenny success for her, and for your boating interests!

- walk
 
312Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Aug 15, 2006, 12:25
good. glad to know it was prominently featured. i imagine she partied hard well into the night after watching the show, so i haven't heard from her yet today...

it's so nuts to see her started to have some success, because i've got all these CDs she made a few years ago, where she would just take some singles she'd recorded, some demos, and sometimes just go right into a mic, and make basically personalized "mix tapes" for all her friends.

i'll keep you posted on her, and who knows, maybe she'll be one of the rare few who not only make a living in this business we call music, but make some good money too!
 
313walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Aug 15, 2006, 14:05
Hey, it's not un-do-able to make it. She can do it.

I have a buddy from all the way back who won a grammy as one of the producers on an album of the year (i.e. no obtuse category). He picks and chooses his projects. He produced one of Mick Jagger's solo albums. I know another person who used to work in the same firm as my wife, in billing & operations, but was an actor; the job was to pay the rent. We got together a few times. She did a way off-broadway show, got a leading role on an episode of Law & Order, and then got an audition for a hollywood film and got a meaty part in the latest M. Night flick, "Lady in the Water." Was with Paul Giamatti in multiple scenes.

It happens. Hopefully, your friend Jenny gets what she wants, too -- it's a tough industry to be able be "artistically independent" and yet "make it," but you gotta believe. Usually, one break begets another and it snowballs. Fingers crossed.

- walk
 
314Tree
      ID: 30717235
      Wed, Aug 23, 2006, 06:30
speaking of 420...

this is four minutes of some pretty damned funny stuff on the Price is Right...the particular guy in question, as he does his bidding and thinks about it - particularly in his final bid - just make you giggle...
 
315Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Aug 28, 2006, 02:18
California Seeks to Clear Hemp of a Bad Name
Things could change if a measure passed by legislators in Sacramento and now on Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger’s desk becomes law. [The bill reached Mr. Schwarzenegger last week; he has 30 days to sign or veto it.] Seven states have passed bills supporting the farming of industrial hemp; their strategy has been to try to get permission from the Drug Enforcement Administration to proceed. But California is the first state that would directly challenge the federal ban, arguing that it does not need a D.E.A. permit, echoing the state’s longstanding fight with the federal authorities over its legalization of medicinal marijuana. The hemp bill would require farmers who grow it to undergo crop testing to ensure their variety of cannabis is nonhallucinogenic; its authors say it has been carefully worded to avoid conflicting with the federal Controlled Substances Act.
 
316Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Aug 28, 2006, 02:38
Re 289

South Dakota initiative makes the ballot but language is so blantantly biased that lawsuit is filed.
Advocates are now facing a legal battle with state Attorney General Larry Long and Secretary of State Chris Nelson, arguing that the ballot language describing the pot proposition is discriminatory and contains demonstrably false information seemingly crafted to thwart its passage. In addition to the basic explanatory language, Nelson's office has included three additional notes: two are clearly over the top – that the law would authorize "any" adult "or child" to use medi-pot, and that pot would still remain illegal and patients still subject to arrest by federal narcos – and the third, that physicians who write prescriptions for medi-pot patients "may be subject to losing their federal license to dispense prescription drugs," is a flat-out lie. Indeed, former U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft's attempt to punish docs for discussing pot with patients was shot down by the federal courts as a violation of free speech.

Valerie Hannah, a medi-mari patient and 10-year U.S. Army veteran who resigned her post as a medic because of poor health related to exposure to serin nerve gas while serving in Iraq, has filed suit against Long and Nelson to block the proposed language from appearing on the ballot, charging that including both blatantly false and clearly misleading information regarding a ballot proposition is a violation of state law, punishable by up to 30 days in the county pokey and/or up to a $200 fine. Nelson should have narrowed the language to explain the ballot and its effect on state law only, Hannah's attorney Ron Volesky told the Associated Press last week. The editorial asides, he said, are "beyond the scope of his authority." Meanwhile, Hannah's lawsuit has, reportedly, teed Nelson, who told the AP that it's interfering with his ability to get the ballots printed and sent out to county election officials. Yet amazingly, Nelson also publicly blames Hannah for not having filed suit sooner – the language at issue, he said, has been set for several weeks: "The timing of these lawsuits is just absolutely irresponsible," he said. Perhaps he should have thought about that before putting his ballot-writing pen to paper.

But, wait, here's the judge's ruling.. oh, what is it?... Hey, I'll sign up for an account at the Yankton Press & Dakotan just so you don't have to.

Judge bitchslapps SD Attorny General's office.
A circuit judge told South Dakota officials on Friday to make substantial changes in the language that will appear on the November ballot to explain a proposal that would legalize the use of marijuana for medical purposes.

Voters in November will decide whether to legalize marijuana for people who have certain medical conditions such as cancer, AIDS or chronic pain. The ballot explanation by Attorney General Larry Long will guide voters.

In a ruling issued Friday, Circuit Judge Max Gors of Pierre gave Long the option of either using a new explanation written by the judge or making substantial changes to the explanation Long had written.

Sponsors of the medical marijuana measure argued in an Aug. 17 hearing that Long's explanation went too far because it said even if South Dakota legalizes marijuana for medical purposes, it would still be illegal under federal law. The attorney general had said that could lead to federal prosecution for possession or use of marijuana for medical use, and doctors could be prosecuted or lose their federal licenses to dispense prescription drugs if they recommend that patients get marijuana.

Gors said the explanation should tell voters that marijuana use would be still be illegal under federal law even if the South Dakota measure passes, but the statement should be made only once. The judge said the attorney general's explanation went too far because it repeated that message several times.

Those statements and other features of Long's explanation appeared to be biased, the judge said.

"The whole impression leads one to believe that the attorney general wants voters to reject the initiative. The attorney general should confine his politicking to the stump and leave his bias out of the ballot statement that is supposed to be objective," Gors wrote.

Long said he was still studying the judge's ruling late Friday afternoon and did not know whether he would rewrite his original explanation or use the one written by the judge.

However, the attorney general said state officials will not appeal to the South Dakota Supreme Court because ballots need to be printed by Sept. 1 so soldiers and other people living overseas can return their ballots by the November election.

It's not everyday that a story from the Yankton Press needs a link so I jump on them when they arrive!
 
317Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Mon, Aug 28, 2006, 05:02
Would you be unhappy if some poor slob thinking the state law absolved him, went to federal prison for decades?

The outrage is staged. The glee isn't hidden half as well as they think. Oh look another lever to use on public opinion.
 
318biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Aug 28, 2006, 19:57
I'd never heard of Yankton until I started watching Deadwood, and they were always referring to the C**KS*KER Bureaucrats from Yankton.

Just thought I'd bore you with meaningless curses. ;)
 
319sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Aug 28, 2006, 21:44
no more meaningless (less meaningful?), than the post immediately preceeding it. (and ask katie sometime about our motorcycle trip to Yankton and the Gavins Point Dam.)
 
320katietx
      ID: 157591212
      Tue, Aug 29, 2006, 11:31
It was pure hell, and I have no desire to visit again.
 
321Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Tue, Aug 29, 2006, 14:09
Missoula, Montana Marijuana initiative qualifies for ballot
If enough voters support Initiative 2 in November's general election, the measure would lean on local law enforcement to make “citations, arrests, property seizures and prosecutions for adult marijuana offenses Missoula County's lowest law enforcement priority,” according to the proposal. “Initiative 2 will create a citizen oversight committee that would annually track and report to taxpayers how much local government time and money are being spent on adult marijuana offenses as compared to other law enforcement issues,” said Angela Goodhope, a spokeswoman for the group. Goodhope said Initiative 2 mimics a similar measure that's been successful in Seattle for three years.


 
322sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Tue, Aug 29, 2006, 14:13
Oh c'mon. The view off the dam was excellent. It was just the 45mph gusting crosswinds that made the ride so bad.
 
323Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Sep 04, 2006, 14:16
Re: 270

Amendment 44 on the statewide ballot would legalize the possession of up to one ounce of marijuana by adults over 21. It's no great shock that agents in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration oppose the Colorado initiative. But it is surprising that the DEA feels duly entitled to wade into a state political debate.
As the Camera reported last month, DEA agent Michael Moore has sent an e-mail soliciting help in finding a campaign manager to help defeat Amendment 44. Moore notes that the group has raised $10,000 to fight the initiative, and he asks those interested in helping to call him at his DEA office.

The e-mail, which was sent from a private account, lists his work phone number and government e-mail address.

Under Colorado law, state workers may not may not campaign for or against any ballot issue or candidate on the job, and they may not use public resources such as government phone lines and e-mail accounts for political advocacy.

But federal law gives greater leeway for federal employees. The Hatch Act of 1939 bars employees from campaigning in partisan politics, but allows them to campaign for or against non-partisan ballot issues. It also prohibits federal employees from using "his or her official authority or influence for the purpose of interfering with or affecting the result of an election."

A federal agent who uses the imprimatur of his office — and his government phone number and e-mail address — to solicit help in defeating a state ballot issue would be apparently violating the rule against using "official authority" to affect an election. But there are exceptions to the rule, and the DEA appears to be exploiting one.

Jeff Sweetin, the special agent in charge of the DEA's Denver office, told the Camera that voters are entitled to change drug laws. At the same time, he argued, the DEA is entitled to inform people that marijuana should remain an illegal drug.

"My mantra has been, 'If Americans use the democratic process to make change, we're in favor of that," he said. "We're in favor of the democratic process. But as a caveat, we're in favor of it working based on all the facts. ...

"The American taxpayer does have a right to have the people they've paid to become experts in this business tell them what this is going to do," he said. "They should benefit from this expertise."

That argument would be more compelling if it were more germane. No one argues that Agent Moore, Special Agent Sweetin should not express their expert opinions on Amendment 44. That is their right under federal law and the U.S. Constitution.

The question is whether it is proper for a federal worker to invoke his employer's name and use a government phone line and e-mail account to try to defeat a citizen initiative. And the answer is "no."



I met the guys of SAFER at Hempfest this year and I like their campaign. Having a bunch of meddling Feds try to generate an oppostion will only galvanize the local electorate in SAFER's favor.
 
324Boxman
      ID: 25717255
      Mon, Sep 04, 2006, 15:01
Mith, do you want to ask a moderator to fix this, or should I?
 
325Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 374522815
      Mon, Sep 04, 2006, 19:58
Post 99 and 323.

Boxman you're way too sensitive.
 
326Perm Dude
      ID: 29821128
      Tue, Sep 12, 2006, 15:00
How the war on drugs is killing US troops and making us less secure.
 
327Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 17:31
Willie Nelso cited for possession...

whew. glad we got him off the streets. man, that guy is a Menace II Society!

and in the no $hit section of the story:

The citations were issued after a commercial vehicle inspection of the country music star's tour bus, state police said in a news release.

"When the door was opened and the trooper began to speak to the driver, he smelled the strong odor of marijuana," the news release said.


it's Willie. man, you think the smell of honeysuckle rose was gonna come wafting out or something?
 
328Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 21:31
Twenty Four Ounces. Five people on the bus...

wow
 
329Tree
      ID: 568511818
      Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 21:42
i think that's why Toby Keith sings the song he does:

I always heard that his herb was top shelf
I just could not wait to find out for myself
Don't knock it til' you tried it, Well I tried it my friend
And I'll never smoke weed with Willie again

I learned a hard lesson in a small Texas town
He fired up a fat boy and passed him around
The last words that I spoke before they tucked me in
Was I'll never smoke weed with Willie again

I'll never smoke weed with Willie again
My parties all over before it begins
You can pour me some old whiskey river my friend
But I'll never smoke weed with Willie again

I hopped on his old bus, the Honey Suckle Rose
The party was Vegas it was after the show.
Alone in the front lounge with just me and him,
With one parting puff grim creeper set in.

I'll never smoke weed with Willie again
My parties all over before it begins
You can pour me some old whiskey river my friend
But I'll never smoke weed with Willie again

Now we're passing the guitar and telling good jokes
I know ones a-comin' cause I'm smelling smoke
No I do not partake, I just let it pass by
With a smile on my face and a great contact high

I'll never smoke weed with Willie again
My parties all over before it begins
You can pour me some old whiskey river my friend
But I'll never smoke weed with Willie again

In the fetal position with drool on my chin
I messed up and smoked weed with Willie again
 
330Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, Oct 01, 2006, 20:29
Adults should be allowed to choose: Amendment 44 poses a simple question: Should the adult possession of up to 1 ounce of marijuana be legal under state law? Or, as our campaign prefers to phrase the question, should adults be punished for making the rational choice to use marijuana instead of alcohol, if that is what they prefer?
On its face, there seems to be no logical reason to oppose this. What we have are two recreational substances. The difference is that alcohol is more addictive and more toxic. It is also associated with aggression and violence, which means it is far more likely to lead to the harm of someone other than the user. The marijuana debate has been framed the wrong way in the minds of Americans for too long. When asked to think about the subject, the first reaction for many is, "Why should we add another vice?"

The opponents of marijuana legalization have helped create this mindset by exaggerating and distorting the harms associated with marijuana. The list of discredited assertions about marijuana - from the "gateway" theory to a causal relationship with violence to links to lung cancer - is too long to review in this column.

Accepting marijuana for the relatively benign recreational substance it is, the appropriate question is not, "Why add a vice?" Instead, the question is, "Why prohibit a safer alternative for adults?" Our opponents have no answer to this direct question. This is because it is not possible to defend allowing adults to use alcohol but not marijuana. One would have to call for a return to alcohol prohibition to make a rational argument against our initiative.

These guys in Colorado are doing a great job, a victory in November would be a huge step forward.
 
331Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 00:13
Colorado will be voting on whether to legalize possession of marijuana this November, and the Drug Enforcement Administration is not amused.
The Drug Enforcement Administration is the last place on earth that anyone should turn to for accurate information on marijuana. The DEA and its predecessor agencies like the Bureau of Narcotics have a 70-year record of brazenly lying about marijuana. Here are a few of the lies the agency and its predecessors have told since 1937:

*Marijuana causes people generally and Blacks and Hispanics in particular to become violent. When it comes to inducing violence, alcohol is drug of choice.
*Marijuana is an addictive drug. The truth is marijuana is among the least addictive drugs known to man.
*Marijuana causes cancer. Dr. Donald Tashkin of UCLA, who has spent a lifetime trying to prove that marijuana causes cancer but who is an honest scientist, found no link between marijuana use and cancer.
*Marijuana is a “gateway drug” that leads to harder drug use. No it isn't. However - and this is important - illegal marijuana use is the principal gateway to illegal drug use. The way to close that particular gate is to make pot use lawful.
*Today's marijuana is much stronger than the marijuana of the 1960s. It isn't, but even if it was so what? If it was, all it would mean is that people would smoke less of it to get stoned.
*Legalizing marijuana would send the “wrong message” to our kids. Keeping pot illegal when it's clearly less harmful than the legal recreational drugs is the wrong message.
 
332Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, Oct 12, 2006, 21:36
THC shown to fight Alzheimer's

Here, we demonstrate that the active component of marijuana, ¢9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), competitively inhibits the enzyme
acetylcholinesterase (AChE) as well as prevents AChE-induced amyloid â-peptide (Aâ)
aggregation, the key pathological marker of Alzheimer’s disease. Computational modeling of
the THC-AChE interaction revealed that THC binds in the peripheral anionic site of AChE, the
critical region involved in amyloidgenesis. Compared to currently approved drugs prescribed
for the treatment of Alzheimer’s disease, THC is a considerably superior inhibitor of Aâ
aggregation, and this study provides a previously unrecognized molecular mechanism through
which cannabinoid molecules may directly impact the progression of this debilitating disease.


 
333Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 19:16
Marijuana sales, distribution major part of local economy. Impact in Colorado Springs could be equivalent to $80 million in retail sales, account for 1,100 jobs
If marijuana were to be legalized and regulated, what would be the economic impact of such a change?

Present channels of sales and distribution would likely disappear. Prices also would likely plummet, even if the product was, like tobacco, heavily taxed.

Thousands of individuals would lose a substantial portion of their income.

If, as Crowley’s model suggests, the marijuana trade is responsible for more than a thousand jobs in the Pikes Peak Region, the economic impact of legalization would be comparable to the closure of a manufacturing business employing a thousand people.

“We’d be out of business — just like the bookies and numbers runners went broke when Lotto came in,” said “Gary,” a former hippie and now a successful Springs businessman. “Back then, there weren’t so many gamblers, the odds were better, and it was a nice, quiet little business — so there’d be a lot more stoners, bad dope and nobody would make any money.

“But”, he added, brightening, “I guess the cops would be out of work, too.”
 
334Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, Nov 05, 2006, 12:57
Voters will decide next week whether South Dakota citizens should legally be allowed to use medical marijuana to treat symptoms caused by certain medical conditions. The controversial Initiated Measure 4 would allow people with “debilitating” medical conditions to grow, possess and use small amounts of medical marijuana. Proponents say the bill would enable those who have painful conditions to legally ease their pain. But opponents of the bill say that it is too broad and would increase the overall use of marijuana.

“I’m a decent person, and I don’t want to be a criminal because I use this to alleviate my pain,”

Artist obtains permit, grows pot for San Francisco exhibit

Dude, this exhibit works on so many levels... just like the stuff in my Altoids tin: curiously strong!
The first reaction to the thriving marijuana plant encased in Plexiglas in a San Francisco art gallery is to its pungent odor. The pot plant, accompanying photos of another plant, and buds encased in resin and mounted in petri dishes, as well as Pred's grower's permit and medical marijuana identification card, are part of the "Who's Afraid of San Francisco" exhibit, which includes installations on gay marriage, immigrants, anti-war movements and racial justice by artists from Oakland and elsewhere.
 
335Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Dec 27, 2006, 11:27


It has been 10 years since California approved Proposition 215 — the Compassionate Use Act — becoming the first state to define marijuana as a medicine. Today, about 200,000 Californians have a doctor's permission to use cannabis, which they can obtain through more than 250 dispensaries, delivery services and patient collectives — 120 of them in Los Angeles County alone. Medical marijuana, activists say, has become a $1-billion business.
San Francisco — Kevin Reed launched his medical marijuana business two years ago, armed with big dreams and an Excel spreadsheet.

Happy customers at his Green Cross cannabis club were greeted by "bud tenders" and glass jars brimming with high-quality weed at red-tag prices. They hailed the slender, gentle Southerner as a ganja good Samaritan. Though Reed set out to run it like a Walgreens, his tiny storefront shop ended up buzzing with jazzy joie de vivre. Turnover was Starbucks-style: On a good day, $30,000 in business would walk through the black, steel-gated front door.

Today, the 32-year-old cannabis capitalist is looking for a job, his business undone by its own success and unexpected opposition in one of America's most proudly tolerant places. Critics in nearby Victorian homes called Reed a neighborhood nuisance. Although four of five San Francisco voters support medical marijuana, the realities of dispensing the contentious medicine have proved far more controversial.
 
336sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Dec 27, 2006, 11:41
NIMBY?
 
337Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Jan 18, 2007, 14:03
I've avoided posting every time the DEA has raided dispensaries in California because there have been so many recently, it's quite depressing.

However, this is the first dispensary in Washington to ever get raided. The good news is the officers were not Feds.
Drug enforcement agents raided the Everett headquarters of an advocacy group for medical marijuana patients, confiscating what police documents say was more than 1,000 plants and computers that the owners say contain personal information of about 200 men and women authorized to use the drug for medicinal purposes.

Long a thorn in the side of law enforcement for his vocal, thumb-in-the-eye advocacy style, Sarich, 56, insists that the government is merely harassing patients -- himself included -- who have a legitimate right to use the drug for managing pain due to multiple sclerosis, cancer and a host of other illnesses.

He wasn't just a thorn in the side of law enforcement, the cannabis legalization community wasn't too happy with is style either. He was insulting to just about anyone who didn't agree with his reckless behavior. No one is happy that he was raided but few people will stand up for him.

Here's a great story about the effects of Proposition Y's passage in Santa Monica.

Here is the funniest story from Stanford's student newspaper about the CMD - Campus Marijuana Dealer aka The Pot Provost
That’s where the Pot Provost comes in. Let’s call him Roland, a composite of several helpful young men (and the occasional woman) I’ve had the pleasure to meet here at the Farm (only for research, officer, I swears it). If Roland were lazy, which comes with the territory, then he’d have been kicked out of several dorms for stupid mistakes (“That? That’s just a lamp.”), whipslashed from Roble to Cedro to Manzanita, perhaps even expelled for a year. If Roland were greedy, he’d have moved from semi-legal drugs to quite illegal drugs (the kind that gives you nosebleeds and supplements anorexia), smoked-snorted-ingested his own stash, become paranoid that the cops are onto him — which they are. But Roland is smart, kind, quick to grin. He only sells to his friends, and you are his friend, because to know Roland is to love him. Calling him a drug dealer seems so drab; calling him a criminal is simply bad manners. For a hyperactive, heavily-caffeinated, type-A culture like ours, Roland is Doctor Feelgood, giving you a mandatory dosage of Chill-The-Fu¢k-Out. Unlike Santa Claus (that fascist), Roland doesn’t care if you’ve been naughty or nice. Roland, like anyone with half a brain, knows that the good things in life come in shades of gray.
 
338Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Jan 22, 2007, 18:08


Details, Details, Details...

DOPE WITH A DOCTOR'S NOTE California’s pot smokers are sparking a new gold rush for the state’s potent medical marijuana.
In 1996, California passed the Compassionate Use Act (Proposition 215), granting physicians the authority to recommend weed for "any . . . illness for which marijuana would provide relief." For eight years, the typical state-sanctioned cannabis consumer, of whom there were about 30,000, was a gravely ill patient. But no longer. Thanks to recent clarifications of Prop 215 (and a U.S. district court injunction protecting pot docs), the threat of arrest has nearly vanished. Since 2004, an estimated 250,000 new "patients" have discreetly boarded the brownie bus, many of them enthusiasts who pay up to a few hundred dollars a year for doctor's notes that permit them to buy rarefied weed at a cannabis club. The doctors' "recommendations" ostensibly combat such ailments as insomnia and headaches. One pioneering pot doc wrote notes to "treat" stuttering, writer's cramp, and corns.

For pot smokers with careers to protect, the license to ward off cops (and bypass dealers) is a strong incentive to buy doctor's notes. "I'm too old to start a police record," says "Chris," a 35-year-old e-commerce senior developer. "A lot of my close friends now have the get-out-of-jail-free card."

"It used to be that physicians only wanted the wheelchair patients," says Jean Talleyrand, 39, an Ivy League–educated pot doc in the Bay Area. "But now that the movement has gained traction, the landscape is different. A surprising number of our patients are highly successful young professionals who would simply rather sidle up to a bong than a bottle."

Obviously I have no problem with healthy adults responsibly enjoying cannabis and everyone should be able to buy top shelf grade stuff at a local distributor without fear of the police, but I do take issue with what's going on in CA. When I advocate for medical marijuana laws I am honest. I believe that patients should be allowed to grow and possess this medicine. The changes in the laws I advocate limit the scope to those who are ill. For people to take advantage of the situation is to risk serious backlash. Supermajorities of people are in favor of legal medical marijuana for those who are ill. We haven't got the numbers yet regarding adult personal non-medical use. We will get there, but we're not there yet. Let's pass the medical marijuana laws, abide by them, not abuse them, and work on convincing the remaining people that even healthy people can benefit from sucking down fat bong hits of Sour Diesel.
 
339Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sat, Feb 03, 2007, 20:43
Here's a great editorial from James K. Polk's rag The Spokesman-Review

Since few of you are registered, I'll include it en toto right here:

MEDICAL MARIJUANA USERS NEED PROTECTION

Sharon Tracy "may have been exactly the kind of patient the voters of this state had in mind when they enacted the medical marijuana initiative, I-692."

So said the Washington State Supreme Court in a Nov. 22 ruling about a woman who suffers from, among other things, diabetes, heart disease, degenerating discs in her back, a hip deformity, and who has had a series of eight corrective surgeries for a ruptured colon and bowel conditions. On her doctor's recommendation, Sharon Tracy was using marijuana to treat her pain.

Nevertheless, Skamania County saw fit to arrest and prosecute her, and the Supreme Court saw fit to uphold her conviction, all because her doctor got his license in California instead of Washington. Now she is serving home detention in Stevenson, more than 25 miles from the nearest hospital, and her felony conviction means that she'll no longer be able to help out at the day care at her church.

Prosecuting Sharon Tracy and monitoring her through the department of corrections is probably not the way most taxpayers want their money spent. And, as the court pointed out, it is clearly not what Washington voters had in mind when they voted for Washington's medical marijuana initiative. Those voters recognized that protecting people like Sharon Tracy from prosecution and jail time is a matter of compassion, common sense and fiscal responsibility.

However, law enforcement and the courts have had difficulty honoring the voters' will. Time and again, the people whom the law was meant to protect find themselves in handcuffs or worse. A Centralia man, the caretaker for a muscular dystrophy patient, was arrested and prosecuted for possessing that patient's medical marijuana (which was then confiscated) - even though the law explicitly allows him to do so. A Bremerton woman who has lupus and a doctor's recommendation for medical marijuana was arrested and prosecuted for possessing a pipe with nothing but marijuana residue in it. There are stories like these all across Washington.

If we want to make sure that the law does what it was intended to do - that is, to protect patients and caregivers from unnecessary and cruel prosecution - we need to make some changes.

The law needs to be clarified so that those who follow the rules can avoid arrest, not just conviction. As it stands, the law provides only a defense at trial.

The law needs to be clarified so that qualifying patients and caregivers can create community medical gardens, providing the intangible benefits of community support and ensuring that all patients who need medical marijuana have access to it. Growing marijuana is an expensive, time-consuming endeavor - frequently too much for a sick patient too handle alone. If one of your elderly relatives learned she needed chemotherapy in a week, and her doctor recommended marijuana for the nausea, do you think she'd be able to grow what she needs in seven days? If she could join a community garden, she'd be sure to have her medicine when the treatments began.

The law needs to be clarified to protect employees who use medical marijuana. Employees who treat their pain with cannabis on a doctor's recommendation should not be treated any differently from employees who treat their pain with opiate-based drugs like codeine on their doctor's recommendation. Testing positive for following your doctor's advice shouldn't mean losing your job.

The law should be clarified so that doctors' expert opinions are given their due. Washington respects a California doctor's opinion that a patient will benefit from conventional painkillers; it should also respect that same doctor's opinion that another patient would benefit instead from medical marijuana.

It's too late for our medical marijuana law to protect Sharon Tracy, but Gov. Gregoire should issue a commutation so she can return to California to care for her very ill mother, and a pardon to rid her of the felony conviction that prevents her from working with children. Just as importantly our Legislature needs to make sure that future patients don't have to undergo her ordeal. It's a simple decision - compassion, common sense and fiscal responsibility tell us that it makes no sense to prosecute and jail sick people for pursuing doctor-recommended medication. Let's do the right thing and protect Washington's medical marijuana patients.
 
340Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Sun, Feb 04, 2007, 09:36
I have to think there's more to the story than that column explained about Sharon Tracy. Law enforcement rarely has time to be that overzealous. Regardless, in the big picture, it's really quite stupid to enact legislation and then allow law enforcement officers to find ways to circumvent it. I agree with the paper's suggestion that the Governor of Washington ought to get involved in that case immediately. Unless, you know, the lady was sharing her stash with the kids in the daycare, or something like that.
 
341Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, Feb 04, 2007, 14:41
My good friend Douglas Hiatt was one of her attorneys and I can attest that she is completely honest and forthright. She was not one of those "Yeah I'm 'ill' but not too sick to PARTY!" types.
 
342Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, Feb 04, 2007, 14:49
John Stossell, whom I generally loath, takes the "Big Government Republicans and their DEA goons" to task
U.S. drug agents launched raids on 11 medical-marijuana centers in Los Angeles County. The U.S. attorney's office says they violated the laws against cultivation and distribution of marijuana. Whatever happened to America's federal system, which recognized the states as "laboratories of democracy"? The U.S. government says its drug laws trump the states' laws, and in 2005, the Supreme Court agreed. This is not the way it was supposed to work. The constitutional plan presented in the Federalist Papers delegated only a few powers to the federal government, with the rest reserved to the states. The system was hailed for its genius. Instead of having decisions made in the center -- where errors would harm the entire country -- most policies would be determined in a decentralized environment. A mistake in California would affect only Californians. New Yorkers, Ohioans, and others could try something else. Everyone would learn and benefit from the various experiments. It made a lot of sense. It still does. Too bad the idea is being tossed on the trash heap by big-government Republicans and their DEA goons. Drug prohibition -- like alcohol prohibition -- is a silly idea, as the late free-market economist Milton Friedman often pointed out. Something doesn't go away just because the government decrees it illegal. It simply goes underground. Then a black market creates worse problems. Since sellers cannot rely on police to protect their property, they arm themselves, form gangs, charge monopoly prices, and kill their competitors. Buyers steal to pay the high prices.
 
343Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Sun, Feb 04, 2007, 14:52
An overbearing Federal government does create strange bedfellows, SZ.
 
344Perm Dude
      ID: 28139414
      Sun, Feb 04, 2007, 15:39
I think that's probably right, MBJ.

Remember: This is a guy who says global warming doesn't exist. That we should have a market for human organs. And that you should be allowed to marry your cousin (because, after all, Einstein's parents were cousins and look at him!). He's been a shill for corporate rights as the means to protecting individual liberty for a long time.
 
345Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 22:54
Colorado Springs, CO: Supporters believe marijuana's medicinal value is worth all the battles
James and Lisa Masters were preparing to take their daughters fishing on the morning of Aug. 2, 2006, when two social workers and two police officers knocked on their door.

"We were just finishing folding laundry, getting ready for the day," says James, "and we had just recently medicated."

They had picked a bad time to take their medicine. Both of the Masterses are medical marijuana patients, whose doctors recommend they get high to treat various physical and neurological illnesses.

The social workers raised allegations of child abuse and neglect toward the Masterses' daughters, ages 4 and 6. The police officers, who the Masterses were told came along in case the parents got violent — perhaps in a fit of reefer madness — smelled the weed.

Inside, the Masterses had 18 marijuana plant clones and an imminent harvest of 12 2-foot-high, bud-laden plants, which they say were for people suffering from glaucoma, cancer, HIV, multiple sclerosis and other crippling diseases.

The Masterses' home was serving as the Larimer County chapter of the Colorado Compassion Club, a statewide network whose members provide quality weed for medical marijuana patients, including themselves. Though the couple had doctors' recommendations for the medicinal crop, as allowed through a state constitutional amendment, the Larimer County Drug Task Force snagged the pot — and Child Protection Services snagged the Masterses' daughters. They were separated from their parents for nearly two months before being returned with no neglect or abuse charges.

There's a story Baldwin and I can agree on.
 
346Perm Dude
      ID: 38146128
      Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 17:44
Really?

[not a reply to the above post]
 
347Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 18:28
Re post 300 - Great news

DEA Administrative Law Judge Mary Ellen Bittner has ruled today in favor of Lyle Craker/MAPS in an 87-page decision. Docket No. 05-16 In the Matter of Lyle E. Craker, Ph.D.

Here's the gist:

"I conclude that granting Respondent's application would not be inconsistent with the Single Convention, that there would be minimal risk of diversion of marijuana resulting from Respondent's registration, that there is currently an inadequate supply of marijuana available for research purposes, that competition in the provision of marijuana for such purposes is inadequate, and that Respondent has complied with applicable laws and has never been convicted of any violation of any law pertaining to controlled substances. I therefore find that Respondent's registration to cultivate marijuana would be in the public interest."
 
348Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 20:24
Margaret Trudeau (former wife of Pierre Trudeau) says heavy use of weed contributed to her mental illness.
 
349Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Feb 26, 2007, 02:18
Ill should not have to fear a drug bust
[Sen. Jeanne Kohl-Welles', D-Seattle' Senate Bill 6032] would permit patients or caregivers to pool resources in growing marijuana ("We could have a P-patch"). She would ensure that patients who are able to produce authorizing paperwork would not be arrested. She would add conditions, including Hepatitis C, where marijuana can be prescribed.

Great article on a very beneficial Senate Bill here in WA.
 
350Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 14:00
Angel Raich is back in the headlines.

On Wednesday, the Ninth Circuit turned away another constitutional challenge to the federal ban on using cannabis for medical purposes. Its decision revealed a glaring weakness in how the Supreme Court protects liberty under the Constitution.

Since the entire article is password protected, I'll include it here.

REEFER MADNESS

On Wednesday, the Ninth Circuit turned away another constitutional challenge to the federal ban on using cannabis for medical purposes. Its decision revealed a glaring weakness in how the Supreme Court protects liberty under the Constitution.

Angel Raich is a seriously ill 41-year-old mother of two who, in 2002, sought an injunction allowing her to use cannabis to alleviate intense pain, and relief from a life-threatening, wasting syndrome. She prevailed in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. But the Supreme Court in 2005 rejected her argument that the application of the federal Controlled Substances Act (CSA) to the personal cultivation, possession and use of state-authorized cannabis for medical purposes was unconstitutional because it exceeded the power of Congress to "regulate commerce . . . among the several states." Justices O'Connor and Thomas, joined by Chief Justice Rehnquist, passionately dissented. On remand, Ms. Raich renewed her alternate theory that the CSA's complete ban on the medical use of cannabis also violated her fundamental right to preserve her life, as protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment. This week, the Ninth Circuit rejected this claim -- but held out some hope that, if criminally prosecuted, Ms. Raich qualified for the defense of "necessity."

According to this doctrine, when a person is forced to choose between her life and disobeying a criminal law, she may not be punished for preserving her life. Though not entitling Ms. Raich to an injunction against the CSA, the court strongly indicated she could assert a necessity defense to any future federal criminal prosecution. The Ninth Circuit thereby offered a potential lifeline to other criminal defendants who can prove that they, like Ms. Raich, have no other choice but to use cannabis to save their lives. Nevertheless, the rejection of Ms. Raich's constitutional claim highlights a serious problem with the Supreme Court's current approach to protecting liberty under the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Ever since the New Deal, the Court will only consider challenges to a law if the liberty being restricted is a "fundamental right." Unless the liberty is characterized by the Court as "fundamental," it will not evaluate or "scrutinize" the government's claim that its restrictions are truly necessary. With laws restricting mere "liberty interests" not deemed fundamental, the Court will blindly accept the government's claim that its restriction is "reasonable."

In short, to get into "Scrutiny Land" -- where the government is forced to justify its restrictions on liberty -- a person such as Ms. Raich must jump through the hoop of showing that the liberty she claims is fundamental. Otherwise she automatically loses.

So what, you ask, makes some liberties fundamental and others not? According to the Supreme Court, either the right must be "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty" or it must be "deeply rooted in the Nation's history and traditions." Under either formulation, however, how a right or liberty is defined makes all the difference. Because the very same act may be accurately defined either narrowly or broadly, a court's choice of definition will dictate the outcome of the case.

Here's how. Angel Raich contended that using the CSA against her infringed her right to preserve her life. If any right is fundamental, this one is: the right to "life" is specifically mentioned in the Due Process Clause itself, and even the federal Partial Birth Abortion Act, like the abortion law struck down in Roe v. Wade, includes an exception to its ban when the procedure is necessary to protect "the life of a mother." So if the right at issue in Ms. Raich's case is the right to preserve her life, she has jumped through the fundamental rights hoop and entered Scrutiny Land.

How does the government respond to this? By claiming that the liberty in question is the right to use cannabis for medical purposes, which it denies is either "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty" or "deeply rooted in the nation's history or traditions." Setting aside the embarrassing historical facts that marijuana was completely unregulated in the United States until the mid-20th century, and was widely used as a medication for most of our history, it is still obviously much harder to claim that a right to use cannabis for medical purposes meets either of these tests, at least as compared with a right to preserve one's life.

Given that everything turns on the description of the right, which one is correct? The dirty little secret of constitutional law is that they are both right. Ms. Raich is preserving her life and she is using cannabis for medical purposes. Because whether a liberty gets protected under the Due Process Clause depends on which accurate description a court chooses to accept, a court may rule however it wishes simply by choosing how to describe the right.

When the Ninth Circuit accepted the government's description of the right in question, the outcome followed like night follows day -- because a "right to use cannabis for medical purposes" is not deeply rooted, etc., it was not fundamental. Because it was not fundamental, Ms. Raich could not enter Scrutiny Land, and her challenge failed.

Had the court chosen her description of the right in question, Ms. Raich would still need to show at trial that she must use cannabis to survive. Since the court accepted the government's description, she won't get that chance. Case closed.

Why accept the government's description rather than Ms. Raich's? The Ninth Circuit relied on the 1997 right-to-die case of Washington v. Glucksburg, which, according to the Ninth Circuit, "instructs courts to adopt a narrow definition of the interest at stake" (emphasis added). Not so. Actually, Glucksburg requires a "careful description of the asserted fundamental liberty interest" (emphasis added). And in the 2003 case of Lawrence v. Texas the Supreme Court defined the liberty unconstitutionally infringed by anti-sodomy laws quite broadly, as "a personal relationship that, whether or not entitled to formal recognition in the law, is within the liberty of persons to choose without being punished as criminals." The Ninth Circuit is not alone, however, in ignoring Lawrence when interpreting Glucksburg and equating "careful" with "narrow." But see how this loads the dice? Because a "narrow" right is unlikely to be found to be deeply rooted in history or tradition, the Supreme Court has cleverly devised a way to avoid scrutinizing the reasonableness of most restrictions on liberty. And so Angel Raich lost her claim.

The Ninth Circuit did suggest that, because it would be supported by what Lawrence called an "emerging consensus," even a narrowly defined right to use medical cannabis might one day be found to be fundamental if more states allow medical cannabis: "For now, federal law is blind to the wisdom of a future day when the right to use medical marijuana to alleviate excruciating pain may be deemed fundamental. Although that day has not yet dawned, considering that during the last 10 years 11 states have legalized the use of medical marijuana, that day may be upon us sooner than expected. Until that day arrives, federal law does not recognize a fundamental right to use medical marijuana prescribed by a licensed physician to alleviate excruciating pain and human suffering." The last sentence is the court's, not mine.

Mr. Barnett is a professor at Georgetown University Law Center and the author of "Restoring the Lost Constitution: The Presumption of Liberty" (Princeton, 2004). He represents Angel Raich.
 
351Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 14:29
come on - you're two days late on this SZ. i had this in the other thread on Wednesday... ;o)
 
352Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 14:39
Yeah, you had a boring Yahoo article, this is an excellent piece written by her attorney.
 
353Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 16:05
Ever run across someone who was fundamentally opposed to MJ use but who discovered for their own medical condition it was the only thing that worked and that MJ pills didn't? I just don't know that I trust these cases not to be potheads in the first place before the condition arose.
 
354Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 16:15
Re 51-52, Yahoo articles also disappear after a few weeks.
 
355Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 16:24
True story: I know a guy who contracted some bizarre virus infection of his sinusses that got so bad it was causing nerve problems and nearly made him go blind. Claims it's some Gulf war thing. His vision actually started to roll like a TV out of sync once. Didn't even know that was possible.

Anyway he claims that this condition gets worse if he doesn't smoke. Goes on about what he calls 'blood slivers' whatever the heck that would be.

Think the anti-smoking zealots would give this guy a pass?
 
356Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 16:59
Re: 353

Absolutely. Many, many people who get seriously ill are quite old, as you might imagine. People over 65 have the lowest rate of "have you ever used marijuana" in America since marijuana usage was very rare when they were young. These people usually are very reluctant to try marijuana medicinally because they have very negative connotations with the herb. Some family member ends up cajoling the seriously ill person to try and once they have relieved the painful symptoms, they eagerly ask for more. These people often are too embarrassed to speak publicly about their new found help as they still believe in the negative stereotypes. Others are so amazed by the transformative healing power that they lobby Congress and statehouses to change the laws. I know numerous people who had never smoked marijuana before coming ill, who were actually very much against marijuana, who became marijuana advocates.

I doubt that this changes your mind, Baldy, as you have made this claim before. You suffer from a government orchestrated disinformation campaign which you conveniently agree with as it allows you to dismiss a class of people whom you loath, liberal "hippies". There are tons of stories about straight and narrow folks who have had family members benefit from medicinal marijuana and you don't want to hear about it.
 
357Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 18:35
and you don't want to hear about it

Are you hearing impaired? Blind? Did I not just ask for examples?

And these people, who you know personally, tried the pills and they didn't work? Don't guess here, you know for a fact they tried and were disappointed?
 
358Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 18:47
I know many people who tried the pills and not one of them liked them at all. Each one of them complained that the pills made them way too stoned. Because the pills take a long time to work after ingestion, you have to keep a heavy dose going in order to avoid the symptoms coming back. I'm not guessing, I've been told personally.

Not everyone who is a medical marijuana patient has tried the pills, they do not have to. First, many people who are going through chemo cannot keep pills down. Cannabis smoke is a great antienemic - it keeps you from vomiting. Second, cannabis smoke/vapor is very fast acting and the effects are easily regulated by the user. If you are feeling an increase in symptoms, you can immediate relieve yourself with a hit. Third, you can grow cannabis very cheaply, Marinol is not cheap.
 
359Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 18:50
you have to keep a heavy dose going in order to avoid the symptoms coming back

Thank you for verifying that the pills emeliorate the symptoms. I didn't ask if they 'liked' them.
 
360Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 18:55
Not everyone said their symptoms were ameliorated. Furthermore, I've spoken to less than a dozen people who have tried Marinol and you don't have to be Biliruben to know that is hardly enough of a sample size to draw any conclusions. But jump right ahead.
 
361Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 19:09
I'm just trying to get a handle on a slippery issue from sources with massive agendas and reasons to spin the story.
 
362walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 18:48
Bong Hits for Jesus

March 18, 2007
Free-Speech Case Divides Bush and Religious Right
By LINDA GREENHOUSE


WASHINGTON, March 17 — A Supreme Court case about the free-speech rights of high school students, to be argued on Monday, has opened an unexpected fissure between the Bush administration and its usual allies on the religious right.

As a result, an appeal that asks the justices to decide whether school officials can squelch or punish student advocacy of illegal drugs has taken on an added dimension as a window on an active front in the culture wars, one that has escaped the notice of most people outside the fray. And as the stakes have grown higher, a case that once looked like an easy victory for the government side may prove to be a much closer call.

On the surface, Joseph Frederick’s dispute with his principal, Deborah Morse, at the Juneau-Douglas High School in Alaska five years ago appeared to have little if anything to do with religion — or perhaps with much of anything beyond a bored senior’s attitude and a harried administrator’s impatience.

As the Olympic torch was carried through the streets of Juneau on its way to the 2002 winter games in Salt Lake City, students were allowed to leave the school grounds to watch. The school band and cheerleaders performed. With television cameras focused on the scene, Mr. Frederick and some friends unfurled a 14-foot-long banner with the inscription: “Bong Hits 4 Jesus.”

Mr. Frederick later testified that he designed the banner, using a slogan he had seen on a snowboard, “to be meaningless and funny, in order to get on television.” Ms. Morse found no humor but plenty of meaning in the sign, recognizing “bong hits” as a slang reference to using marijuana. She demanded that he take the banner down. When he refused, she tore it down, ordered him to her office, and gave him a 10-day suspension.

Mr. Fredericks’s ensuing lawsuit and the free-speech court battle that resulted, in which he has prevailed so far, is one that, classically, pits official authority against student dissent. It is the first Supreme Court case to do so directly since the court upheld the right of students to wear black arm bands to school to protest the war in Vietnam, declaring in Tinker v. Des Moines School District that “it can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.”

The court followed that 1969 decision with two others during the 1980s that upheld the authority of school officials to ban vulgar or offensive student speech and to control the content of school newspapers. Clearly there is some tension in the court’s student-speech doctrine; what message to extract from the trio of decisions is the basic analytical question in the new case, Morse v. Frederick, No. 06-278. What is most striking is how the two sides line up.

The Bush administration entered the case on the side of the principal and the Juneau School Board, which are both represented by Kenneth W. Starr, the former solicitor general and independent counsel. His law firm, Kirkland & Ellis, is handling the appeal without a fee. Mr. Starr and Edwin S. Kneedler, a deputy solicitor general who will present the government’s view, will share argument time on Monday. The National School Board Association, two school principals’ groups, and several antidrug organizations also filed briefs on the school board’s side.

While it is hardly surprising to find the American Civil Liberties Union and the National Coalition Against Censorship on Mr. Frederick’s side, it is the array of briefs from organizations that litigate and speak on behalf of the religious right that has lifted Morse v. Frederick out of the realm of the ordinary.

The groups include the American Center for Law and Justice, founded by the Rev. Pat Robertson; the Christian Legal Society; the Alliance Defense Fund, an organization based in Arizona that describes its mission as “defending the right to hear and speak the Truth”; the Rutherford Institute, which has participated in many religion cases before the court; and Liberty Legal Institute, a nonprofit law firm “dedicated to the preservation of First Amendment rights and religious freedom.”

The institute, based in Plano, Tex., told the justices in its brief that it was “gravely concerned that the religious freedom of students in public schools will be damaged” if the court rules for the school board.

Lawyers on Mr. Frederick’s side offer a straightforward explanation for the strange-bedfellows aspect of the case. “The status of being a dissident unites dissidents on either side,” said Prof. Douglas Laycock of the University of Michigan Law School, an authority on constitutional issues involving religion who worked on Liberty Legal Institute’s brief.

In an interview, Professor Laycock said that religiously observant students often find the atmosphere in public school to be unwelcoming and “feel themselves a dissident and excluded minority.” As the Jehovah’s Witnesses did in the last century, these students are turning to the courts.

The briefs from the conservative religious organizations depict the school environment as an ideological battleground. The Christian Legal Society asserts that its law school chapters “have endured a relentless assault by law schools intolerant of their unpopular perspective on the morality of homosexual conduct or the relevance of religious belief.”

The American Center for Law and Justice brief, filed by its chief counsel, Jay Alan Sekulow, warns that public schools “face a constant temptation to impose a suffocating blanket of political correctness upon the educational atmosphere.”

What galvanized most of the groups on Mr. Frederick’s side was the breadth of the arguments made on the other side. The solicitor general’s brief asserts that under the Supreme Court’s precedents, student speech “may be banned if it is inconsistent with a school’s basic educational mission.”

The Juneau School Board’s mission includes opposing illegal drug use, the administration’s brief continues, citing as evidence a 1994 federal law, the Safe and Drug-Free Schools and Communities Act, which requires that schools, as a condition of receiving federal money, must “convey a clear and consistent message” that using illegal drugs is “wrong and harmful.”

Mr. Starr’s main brief asserts that the court’s trilogy of cases “stands for the proposition that students have limited free speech rights balanced against the school district’s right to carry out its educational mission and to maintain discipline.” The brief argues that even if Ms. Morse applied that precept incorrectly to the facts of this case, she is entitled to immunity from suit because she could have reasonably believed that the law was on her side.

The religious groups were particularly alarmed by what they saw as the implication that school boards could define their “educational mission” as they wished and could suppress countervailing speech accordingly.

“Holy moly, look at this! To get drugs we can eliminate free speech in schools?” is how Robert A. Destro, a law professor at Catholic University, described his reaction to the briefs for the school board when the Liberty Legal Institute asked him to consider participating on the Mr. Frederick’s behalf. He quickly signed on.

Having worked closely with Republican administrations for years, Mr. Destro said he was hard pressed to understand the administration’s position. “My guess is they just hadn’t thought it through,” he said in an interview. “To the people who put them in office, they are making an incoherent statement.”

The solicitor general’s office does not comment publicly on its cases. But Mr. Starr, by contrast, was happy to talk about the case and the alignment against him of many of his old allies. “It’s reassuring to have lots of friends of liberty running around,” he said in a cheerful tone, adding: “I welcome this outpouring because it will help the court see that it shouldn’t go too far either way.”

 
363biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Sun, Apr 08, 2007, 13:58
This actually isn't Marijuana in the news.

When is the existence of a grow light probable cause for a warrant?

Eight officers with guns drawn surprised three roommates in the apartment last weekend and discovered they were growing tomatoes.

What the F is wrong with this country. Even if it WERE marijuana they were growing. 8 cops with guns drawn for a few college students with a tomato plant? Priorities, people.
 
364Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 10:33
Horrible news: The Feds have come to Washington.

Here is an e-mail I've received from the owner and lead doctor of the largest medical marijuana operation in Washington and Oregon.
On Tuesday, April 10, 2007, THCF Medical Clinics and I, Paul Stanford, received a federal grand jury subpoena from the Drug Enforcement Administration and Assistant US Attorney James P. Hagarty. A federal grand jury is or will be empaneled for an investigation directed by Assistant US Attorney Hagarty. The subpoena says that the grand jury will meet at the United State Courthouse, William O. Douglas Building in Yakima, WA at 9:00 am on May 15, 2007. I am "COMMANDED" to appear and "COMMANDED to bring with you the following document(s) or object(s): * ..."

This subpoena says, "Provide the below described documentation pertaining to the following named parties: ," This subpoena then names 17 people from Oregon and Washington state, along with each person's date of birth. After the list of names, the subpoena continues: "Any and all documents including, but not limited to : * Documentation of Medical Authorization to Possess Marijuana for Medical Purposes in the State of Washington; * Medical Statements and or Reports; * Correspondence; * Reports of any violation and or termination of the Authorization; * Written Applications."

The subpoena says, "You are required not to disclose the existence of this request. Any such disclosure could impede the investigation being conducted and thereby interfere with the enforcement of the law."

I believe this requirement violates my right to free speech and is contrary to my life's work and The Hemp & Cannabis Foundation's goals to end adult marijuana prohibition, restore industrial hemp and help medical marijuana patients.

We can not disclose any patient's identity. Our obligation to protect our patients' privacy is a sacred duty.

We shall fight against this subpoena and for patients using medical marijuana until we prevail. THCF's attorney, Ann Witte of Portland, is preparing a motion to quash (or dismiss) this subpoena. Due to our duty to maintain patient privacy and conflicting federal laws protecting medical patients' privacy and empowering grand juries, our lawyer believes this issue will ultimately be decided by the US Supreme Court. When we file the motion to quash this subpoena, we will hold a press conference in Yakima announcing our opposition to the federal government's continued war on sick and dying patients who benefit from medical marijuana.

THCF has now helped over 18,000 patients in five states obtain a medical marijuana permit under their state's medical marijuana law. This is the first time we have ever received a federal subpoena. THCF Medical Clinics currently sees patients in Portland, Bend and Medford, OR, Seattle and Spokane, WA, Honolulu and Hilo, HI and Denver, CO. We will open medical offices this year in San Francisco and Los Angeles, CA and Las Vegas and Reno, NV.

The Hemp & Cannabis Foundation is a 501C3 nonprofit organization with several projects. In addition to THCF Medical Clinics, THCF has produced 400 episodes of our live weekly TV show, Cannabis Common Sense, and prints a newspaper called Hemp News. Cannabis Common Sense is on cable TV in Portland and Salem, OR, in Seattle and Spokane, WA, in Denver, CO, and is also available on the Internet on YouTube. THCF maintains medical gardens that give free medicine to indigent patients. THCF produces cannabis-related events and sponsors other hempfests. THCF contributes to other organizations' efforts to help patients who benefit from medical marijuana, contributes to other groups working to end adult marijuana prohibition and contributes $500 each month to UNICEF for AIDS orphans in Africa.

THCF has an affiliated 501C4 political committee, Campaign for the Restoration & Regulation of Hemp, or CRRH. CRRH's goal is also to end adult marijuana prohibition, restore industrial hemp and help medical marijuana patients.

We shall overcome!

Please support our efforts. Thank you.

Yours truly,
D. Paul Stanford
www.hemp.org
1-800-723-0188

It has begun.
 
365biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 10:42
Didn't we already lose? How is this different from Raich(sp?)?
 
366Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 10:49
This is akin to Ed Rosenthal, not Raich, because Stanford is a provider, not a patient himself. On the Federal level, there is no medical marijuana defense. It looks bad.
 
367Perm Dude
      ID: 35342167
      Mon, Apr 16, 2007, 11:54
Speaking of Ed Rosenthal, look what the new AGs are up to...
 
368Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, Apr 19, 2007, 02:35
absurd and illogical

Marijuana Compound May Fight Lung Cancer

In cells and in mice, THC shrank tumors, scientists say.
While smoking marijuana is never good for the lungs, the active ingredient in pot may help fight lung cancer, new research shows.

Harvard University researchers have found that, in both laboratory and mouse studies, delta-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) cuts tumor growth in half in common lung cancer while impeding the cancer's ability to spread.

The compound "seems to have a suppressive effect on certain lines of cancer cells," explained Dr. Len Horovitz, a pulmonary specialist at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City.
 
369Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 19:33
Re: Post 362

Supreme Court hands down pathetic 5-4 ruling.

School principals may punish students for holding up signs that favor the use of illegal drugs (even if you do it on your own property on your own time), the Supreme Court said today in narrow decision limiting the free-speech rights of students.

Simply pathetic. The Conservative Cabal has overreached again, saying schools can do all sorts of stupid things in the name of keeping students' statements "on message".
Thomas said he would have gone further in the other direction and said high school students did not have free-speech rights. In 1969, amid the Vietnam War, the high court sided with students who had worn black armbands as a protest. The court said then that students "do not shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." That ruling came in Tinker vs. Des Moines Independent School District. Chief Justice Roberts cited that phrase with approval today, but Thomas, speaking only for himself, said he would overrule the Tinker decision.

Ah, Clarence, still as unqualified as ever.
 
370Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 20:43
(even if you do it on your own property on your own time)


What a strange editorial comment by you. Did you read the facts? This was during a school function on the side walk in front of the school; he was told to put the sign down, wouldn't, and got suspended.

BTW, the Plaintiff states that he was not making any statement about drug use; that he just wanted to provoke the principal that he had it out for.

The fact that this was during a school function ans seemed to advocate illegal activity that was contrary to a reasonable educational objective makes this a hard case even for me.
 
371Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 20:51
I meant to add, your link is a to a pathetic article. Thomas didn't say that high school students didn't have free speech rights; he said they didn't have the right to free speech at school.
 
372Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 22:11
This was during a school function on the side walk in front of the school; he was told to put the sign down, wouldn't, and got suspended.

This was not during a school function and it was not on school grounds. I have been following this case for years and I was under the notion that he unfurled his banner on his own property along the parade route. I am going through old stories and I can't find where I came up with that notion, so I retract the "own property" portion, but this ruling would not be any different if it were his property. He was off school grounds, school was let out to allow students to watch, but they were not required to be there, it was not a field trip. The court really stretched, in my mind, when it held that he was "at school" because he was at a "school approved social event where the student conduct rules applied". That's crap.
 
373Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 22:39
The decision

It begins......

At a school-sanctioned and school-supervised event, petitioner Morse, the high school principal, saw students unfurl a banner stating
“BONG HiTS 4 JESUS,” which she regarded as promoting illegal drug use. Consistent with established school policy prohibiting such
messages at school events, Morse directed the students to take down the banner. When one of the students who had brought the banner to
the event—...


As I understand it, the school allowed students to walk out of class to the front of the school to watch the Olympic Torch carrier pass by. Seems like a pretty fair characterization of the facts by Roberts; this was school sanctioned and supervised and during school hours.

I don't know where you're getting that this limited decision would not be different if it were on the PLaintiff's property. Are you invisioning a field trip to his mom's house during school hours and under the supervision of school personnel.

The school supervision and sanctioning were critical elements in even Thomas' concurrence.
 
374Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 01:14
Letting students leave the campus to watch a parade may be school sanctioned, but to say that the students remained under school supervision is a real stretch. The Cabal wanted to write some precedent, facts be damned.
 
375Perm Dude
      ID: 125122512
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 02:42
Frederick stood among other students across the street from the school and directed his banner toward the school, making it plainly visible to most students. Under these circumstances, Frederick cannot claim he was not at school.

Let's see--he wasn't on school property, but directed the message toward the school itself. It appears that this made him "at school" according to the majority. Maybe he was as a result of physically moving from the school property to just outside the property under the guise of a school-sanctioned off-campus event, but the wording seems unusually broad in the majority opinion. And the beginning of the opinion (which MBJ quotes) seems more directed at where the petitioner was when he saw the speech in question rather than Frederick.

Maybe that was the larger point being made: That is doesn't matter where the speech originates, but whether it is received by school kids under the school's protection.
 
376Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 10:02
Doesn't the Supreme Court accept only one out of one hundred cases or so? And they waste their valuable time on this nonsense. The sign does not even make sense. Also, he could have been referring to tobacco bong hits, which are not drug related. From Wikipedia:

A bong, also commonly known as a water pipe, is a smoking device, generally used to smoke marijuana and tobacco, but also other substances.

I haven't read the case, but I would have tried that line of defense.
 
377Perm Dude
      ID: 41572614
      Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 23:47
That would have been a line of reasoning used very early on. MBJ & Seattle Zen can probably clarify, but my understanding is that the trial court determines facts, and above that the courts determine the law.

pd
 
378Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 04:22
butt
 
379Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 06:31
butt

The issue of pot legalization gets too much attention in this forum already. I've done some perusing through older threads and it looks like Baldwin got taken to task for his obsession with the Schiavo case. Where is the similar outcry for Zen? Then again, the liberals do run this place.

I personally don't give a damn what the people in Washington state do. Let states rights win the day and have at it, but I don't want to hear it from the big government liberals that my state can't do x or y.
 
380Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 11:57
"Bong Hits 4 Jesus" suit settled for $45,000.

The district will pay Frederick $45,000. In exchange Frederick will drop remaining claims not heard by the U.S. Supreme Court. The settlement also calls for the district to spend as much as $5,000 to hire a neutral constitutional law expert to chair a forum on student speech at JDHS. This is to be done before this school year ends next spring.

Congratulations to the young man and his insistent fight for his right to speech. Seven years is a long time to stick to your guns. I love the forum on student speech idea.
 
381DWetzel at work
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 12:34
"I've done some perusing through older threads and it looks like Baldwin got taken to task for his obsession with the Schiavo case. Where is the similar outcry for Zen?"

I think the difference is that it's mostly confined to one thread, rather than spewed in twenty different places.

If SZ started a new thread every two days (or four in ten minutes) about this while calling opponents of drug legalization tyrannical Hitler-esque thugs who eat babies and drink their blood, trust me, I'll be similarly annoyed about that aspect of it.
 
382DWetzel at work
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 12:36
(And I'd add that you will basically NEVER see the level of disgust at what Boldwin excretes onto this board about it, because it's about the issue, not about dehumanizing and demonizing a specific person or group of people.)
 
385chode
      ID: 3610616
      Thu, Jun 28, 2012, 10:19
No bath salts, just pot.
 
386Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sat, Jan 03, 2015, 16:59
Not sure how I missed this: NYC shifts policy on small marijuana possession.

Of course, the police union are being dicks about the thing (whining about the mayor “surrender and change the policies of the NYPD"), but there you go.