Forum: pol
Page 187
Subject: Is There Really Liberal Media Bias?


  Posted by: Baldwin - [25440222] Thu, Dec 07, 20:21

Really think there isn't a liberal bias in the media?

how come, when the Florida Legislature has 58 Democrats among its 160 members, it's always referred to as ``Republican-dominated,'' which it is, but the Florida Supreme Court, which includes zero Republicans, is never called ``Democrat-dominated''?

How come when the Republican Legislature says it will follow the Constitution as written it's a ``partisan political ploy,'' but when the Florida Supreme Court turns the law upside down to give Al Gore an extra 12 days to steal the election, it's an impartial judiciary just doing its job?

How come it's not ``hate speech'' when Bill Maher says on national TV Thursday night that as the country watched the Ryder van with the Palm Beach ballots moving up the Florida turnpike, ``For a few brief moments, America held the hope that O.J. Simpson had murdered Katherine Harris''?

And how come it isn't ``mean-spirited'' when Craig Kilborn freeze-frames a picture of George W. Bush with a caption that says ``Snipers Wanted''?

Probably for the same reason that it was permissible during impeachment for reputed actor Alec Baldwin to mention it might be a good idea to stone Rep. Henry Hyde and his family to death.

If you're a Beautiful Person from Hollywood and you suggest lynching Republicans, that's fair comment under the First Amendment. If you're a Republican and you live within 300 miles of a lynching, you may as well have personally knotted the rope.

 
1Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Thu, Dec 07, 20:23
More...

How come George Bush has an MBA from Harvard Biz and he's a moron and Al Gore ``dropped out'' of Vanderbilt Law School and he's a genius?

How come no one on TV can mention Katherine Harris without remarking on the fact that she worked in the Bush campaign, but outside a handful of newspapers, no one ever points out that Florida attorney general Bob Butterworth was chairman of Al Gore's campaign in the Sunshine State?

How come so few media outlets picked up the Miami Herald story that hundreds, probably thousands, of ex-cons illegally cast ballots in Florida?

How come, after the Republicans lost their bid to convict Bill Clinton of high crimes and misdemeanors in the Senate, the left wing Ivy League chattering skulls said as one that it was time for America to ``move on.''

But now, even after Al Gore has lost recount after recount, you could forfeit your invitation to Renaissance Weekend by suggesting that it's now time for America to ``move on.'' How come, on election night, Al Gore ``won'' states but they always ``fell'' to George Bush?

How come all the Gore [kissups] in the press keep referring to the Seminole County case as involving ``ballot tampering,'' when actually it's applications for ballots? And why do you have to go to Florida newspapers to find out that the judge hearing the case had her campaign do exactly the same thing when she was running?
 
2Madman
      ID: 610552719
      Thu, Dec 07, 20:34
Got a source for the allegation that the judge hearing the case had her campaign do exactly the same thing? (I assume you're talking Nikki Clark)

BTW, I've waffled between saying they have a liberal bias and that they aren't too bright and that they have a self-interest in prolonging controversy.

Maybe it's all three.
 
3Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Thu, Dec 07, 21:26
I posted the source I quoted. You'll see the link in the header post. I have found no other mention of this however in web searches. I'll keep trying.
 
4hoops boy
      ID: 51440922
      Thu, Dec 07, 22:34
It's funny, I was just thinking about this today. The funny part is that dems come on here and they give pretty good reasons as to why they think it is a conservative media. The thing that got me thinking of this was an intro on cnn today said something like "45 days and still no president-elect..." and I was thinking, what the heck are you talking about, W is the president-elect, there just happens to be a contest going. Perhaps he wont end up as president, but he is president elect. Report the friggin correct news would you?
 
5Madman
      ID: 610552719
      Thu, Dec 07, 23:16
Baldwin -- yeah, I checked that link out, but I want to get the full scoop on that story before I use it as fact. It would be a cool story if correct.

hoops boy -- That's kind of funny. I am quite sure it is not a conservative media (outside of the WSJ and National Review and places like that).
 
6steve houpt
      ID: 59695
      Fri, Dec 08, 00:30
Madman - I think when you research you will find it was the female Judge that originally had the case in Seminole County before it was moved to Leon County, not Nikki Clark.

I read that earlier. Not sure if I can find a link now.
 
7nerveclinic
      ID: 441058281
      Sat, Dec 09, 00:46
Baldwin

Almost everytime I have heard the Florida Supreme court discussed by the liberal media it has been refered to as democrats. I have virtually never heard them mentioned without someone pointing out that they were all appointed by democrats so I don't really know what your talking about in your opening paragraph.

The media is liberal and the media is conservative.

Politicians are liberal and politicians are conservatives.

Celebraties are conservative and celebraties are liberal.

It is the game they play with us.

They pit us against each other. Like we do on these posts. We think there are real differences, we believe there are sides to take.

It's all part of the game. Divide and seperate.
The Roman circus. Keep us fighting, keep us busy. Make us believe they really are on oppisite sides...when the truth is..it is all theatre to keep us occupided and entertained...while their boys (Republocrats) stay in power.

The contested election is just window dressing, in the end their boy will be in power, because they are both THEIR BOYS.
 
8Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Sat, Dec 09, 02:04
The media is liberal and the media is conservative Nerve

The mainstream media is scewed far to the left. I am confident we can easily demonstrate that in this thread.

I notice you only chose to deal with one of my examples. How come?

Of course even the mainstream media has been forced to explain the Dem background of SCOFLAw justices. They would be pretty exposed if they didn't provide some explaination for SCOFLAw to be the only courts ruling in Gore's favor.

They pit us against each other. Like we do on these posts. We think there are real differences, we believe there are sides to take. N

Yes and no. There are real differences. Favoring small gov vs large centralized government. Favoring less tax and spend or more.

Yes the power elites cover a multitude of sins behind the cover of partisan crossfire. Prominently we noticed this when Chinagate was covered up because China had been buying influence with BOTH parties. When both Clinton and Bush can be tied to government drug involvement both sides manage to bury it. When the S&L's are being scammed by powerful insiders from both sides, noone really get punished but the taxpayers who bail the S&L system out.

When it comes to fully exposing major wrongdoing 90% of highlevel coverups succeed. Never trust a blue ribbon committee.

Nevertheless in every day reporting the mainstream media has a liberal bias that will constantly act as a rachet favoring Democrat special interests.
 
9beastiemiked
      ID: 145191710
      Sat, Dec 09, 02:53
I'm sure there are Celebrities that are conservative and liberal, but do we EVER here of the conservative ones??? It's so fickin ridiculous on Late Shows how many people go on there and mention that Bush is dumb or mention they voted for Al Gore.

In the past 2 months or so I only saw ONE Bush supporter on any of the Late Shows(Ben Stein on Craig Kilborn). He was on Craig about a week or so before the election and he never told anyone to vote for Bush. He just explained the reason why he liked him, you guys are gonna love his reason, these aren't exact quotes but it went something like

"I like Bush because he is laid back, if he were to lose the election he wouldn't cry about it, he would humbly take defeat. On the other hand Gore would probably cry about it for 4 years"

 
10spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 08:14
THE ILLIBERAL MEDIA

Edward S. Herman

Claims of a pervasive "liberal" or "left" media bias are heard repeatedly in the allegedly liberal/left media, but counterclaims of exceptional "illiberal" or "conservative" bias and power in the media are exceedingly rare. This is hardly a reflection of reality: there is a huge right-wing Christian radio and TV system; the right-wing Rupert Murdoch owns a TV network, movie studio, 132 newspapers, book publishers (including HarperCollins), and 25 magazines, among other holdings; Rush Limbaugh admirer John Malone's Tele-Communications Inc. is the largest cable system in the United States (14 million subscribers) and has interests in 91 U.S. cable content services; the editorial page of the largest circulation national newspaper, the Wall Street Journal, is aggressively reactionary; the talk show world on radio and TV is dominated by the likes of Robert Novak (CrossFire), the McLaughlin Group, and Rush Limbaugh and Limbaugh clones; and even PBS is saturated with right-wing regulars (Buckley, Brown, McLaughlin, Wattenberg).



The Pitiful Giant Syndrome

Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) recently listed 52 national media figures of the right, from Roger Ailes to Walter Williams, most of whom have proclaimed the media's liberal bias while occupying positions of access and power vastly more extensive than liberals could ever hope to attain. And leftists are an extinct species in the mainstream media; the firing of Jim Hightower by ABC, immediately following the Disney acquisition, was like the passing of the last carrier pigeon, or dodo bird. This doesn't prevent the pundits, and even the media moguls, from making bitter complaints about the power of the "left." Rupert Murdoch and John Malone vowed a year ago that they were jointly planning a news channel in order to combat the "left bias" of the media. The right-wing Canadian mogul Conrad Black, who owns more than half the daily newspapers in Canada and over a hundred in this country (including the Chicago Sun Times) is also constantly whining about the liberal-left bias of the press.

The reason we only hear plaints of a "liberal" media is that the right-wing is so well entrenched and aggressive that its members can pretend that their own potent selves don't exist when they speak of media bias. Just as power allowed the right-wing and a complicit "liberal media" to label university dissidents a PC threat, while ignoring the massive right-wing attempt to impose its own political agenda on the university, so in the case of the media, views disapproved by the powerful are "liberal" or "left"--the views of the numerous right-wing moguls and pundits are implicitly unbiased or merely countering those of the omnipresent, subversive, but elusive "liberals." We can call this the "pitiful giant syndrome," harking back to Nixon era claims that the poor USA was a pitiful giant being pushed around by Third World upstarts. The pitiful moguls are of course in the supremely privileged position of being able to create their own right-wing news and commentary operations and exclude those that don't meet their political standards. Murdoch personally funded the new conservative magazine The Weekly Standard, and he has placed Roger Ailes in charge of his new cable news services--Ailes is the Republican specialist in media dirty tactics (famous for his role in the Willie Horton ploy in 1988), who came to the Murdoch news operation after a stint as Rush Limbaugh's producer. Malone recently created his own new talk-commentary program, "Damn Right!," hosted by David Asman, the Wall Street Journal editorial page's noted apologist for state terrorism in Central America, along with another "citizen education" show, "The Race for the Presidency," under partisan Republican management. He has also welcomed to TCI cable Pat Robertson's Family Channel and the new, exclusively right-wing, Empowerment Channel. At the same time, Malone succeeded in killing The 90s Channel, that rare (and now approaching the extinct) entity called a "liberal" channel, by raising its entry rates to his cable system to prohibitive levels. The pitiful giant was exercising raw economic power in pursuit of his political agenda, but the liberal media didn't notice or complain. (And the Clinton FCC, while sanctioning one giant monopoly power enhancing merger after another, refused to intervene.)



Flabby Centrists versus Aggressive Right

In the real world, the resurgent power of corporate and financial interests, an increasingly concentrated media ever more closely integrated with advertisers (now spending on the media over $75 billion a year), the proliferation of corporate-funded thinktanks and the corporate "leasing the ivory tower," has shifted political power and media opinion sharply to the right. At this point, "left" in the media is conservative, centrist, and in a defensive mode, accepting without question the premises of corporate capitalism and the imperial state, but weakly supporting the preservation of an eroding welfare state. The strong liberalism of L. T. Hobhouse (Liberalism), Louis Brandeis (The Curse of Bigness), and John Dewey (Reconstruction in Philosophy), with its powerful strain of equalitarianism and opposition to concentrated economic power, is still deeply rooted in the public, but is hard to find in mainstream politics or the media. The centrist-conservative media "left" is epitomized by David Broder, although Mark Shields, Roger Rosenblatt, or Jack Germond would do just as well. In the late 1980s, when a Central America activist asked the editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer to identify his left columnist who offset Charles Krauthammer and George Will, the editor answered: David Broder. But Broder's views are pure establishment; he evades tough issues, joins almost every establishment crusade (NAFTA, Persian Gulf war, Soviet Threat and military buildup, welfare and entitlements out of control), and devotes maximum attention to election horse-racing. He also never fights for principles against strong establishment opposition-- thus, while disliking Reagan's Central America wars, he simply abandoned the subject, giving the floor to Will, Krauthammer, and the administration. So Broder never bothers anybody important, adapts beautifully to class and imperial warfare, and is the ideal liberal for an era of counterrevolution. (For a fuller treatment, see my chapter on Broder in Triumph of the Market).

Meanwhile, the right-wing opposition to Broder and company--Will, Krauthammer, Robert Bartley, Fred Barnes, Mona Charren, the Kristols, John Leo, and dozens more--are not conservatives, they are reactionary servants of the corporate community, which has been on the offensive for over 20 years, striving to remove all obstacles to its growth and profitability. These obstacles include the welfare state, regulation of corporate practices, and an organized labor movement. Removing these, and returning us to nineteenth century socio-economic conditions, is not a "conservative" project, it is reactionary. So is the support of the "strong state" in the Pinochet-Reagan-Thatcher modes, featuring ruthless law and order regimes, imperial aggressiveness, and military-industrial and prison-industrial complexes riding high.



Right-wing Echo Chamber

With flabby centrists like Broder as the left, and even these in small numbers, the large array of aggressive right-wing pundits and editors like Robert Bartley (Wall Street Journal) can engineer agendas. In order to fix agendas themes must be repeated, with passion, to make them seem really important. The right wingers are sufficiently numerous to be able to constitute an "echo chamber," in which the charges are repeated, each small elaboration used to keep the subject on the agenda, and the agenda pushed relentlessly. They are able to elevate sleazy trash with a suitable message (Gary Aldrich's Unlimited Access) into national prominence and turn the relatively trivial "filegate" into the equivalent of Watergate (Jeff Cohen, "'Filegate Equals Watergate': The Conservative Echo Chamber Circulates a Myth," EXTRA!, Oct. 1996). They can even make a genuine contribution to war hysteria and the militarization of foreign policy, as in the Persian Gulf crisis of 1990-1991 (see Eric Alterman's Sound and Fury).

The spineless political and media liberals not only don't set agendas, they often get on the right-wing bandwagons themselves. They quickly swallowed the line of a Sandinista threat, and in the phony MIG crisis of 1984 competed with one another in urging an aggressive U.S. response. Liberal congressman Lee Hamilton was notorious for caving in during the Iran-contra investigation, in the interest of a "national unity" that the right-wing regularly ignores in attacking their enemies. And David Broder followed Hamilton and his fellow Democrats in failing to press the attack on North, Reagan and Bush despite their carrying out covert terrorist operations in violation of law and constitutional principles. Clinton refused to pursue the Bush administration's involvement in the Banco Lavoro case and indirect funding of Saddam Hussein, and the media liberals followed in his wake. The 1995 testimony by former Reagan official Howard Teicher that the Reagan administration had "authorized, approved and assisted" delivery of cluster bombs to Iraq, among other massive arms support, was of no interest to the liberal media.

The right-wing media maintained a ferocious attack on Special Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh, whose work was vastly more relevant to substantive issues than Kenneth Starr's inquiries into Whitewater. The liberal media, which failed to defend Walsh and give his investigation major attention, have allowed the conservative echo chamber to elevate and honor Starr and the Whitewater investigation (see Robert Parry's Fooling America, and his ongoing reports in his newsletter The Consortium). Iraqgate is "ancient history" for the media; the more aged Whitewater for some reason retains currency.

While the right-wing echo chamber has been important in pushing numerous nasty policy trends, it should be recognized that this echo chamber is underwritten by big money and would not work without "liberal media" cooperation. The McLaughlin Group is funded by General Electric, many of the other right wingers are or have been supported at corporate funded thinktanks, and a majority of them are carried as columnists by the liberal media. The liberal media have also regularly joined in right-wing propaganda campaigns- -Newsweek and the New York Times were major participants in the PC propaganda wave; they all gave prominence to The Bell Curve, and supported the Reaganite arms race and wars of the 1980s; and they are virtually all now in the Concord Coalition camp elevating the threat of entitlement costs into a crisis and setting the stage for the further erosion of the welfare state.



Proving Liberal Domination

Just as money and power allow the dominant illiberals to call the media liberal and left, so money and power allow them to study and "prove" media bias. S. Robert Lichter, Linda Lichter, and Stanley Rothman have been the most prominent rightists who have engaged in this "scientific" effort. The Lichters organized their Center for Media and Public Affairs in 1985, with accolades from Reagan and Pat Buchanan; Rothman has an Olin chair at Smith College. In a 1981 article on "Media and Business Elites" (Public Opinion), Robert Lichter and Rothman (LR) tried to prove the liberal bias of the media by showing that the "media elite" votes Democratic and has opinions more liberal than that of mainstream America.

The LR study violated every scientific standard you could name. They claimed to be studying a "media elite," but actually sampled media personnel who had anything to do with media "content," so most of them may be ordinary reporters (they failed to disclose the composition of their sample). LR compared their "media elite" with a sample of middle and upper levels of corporate management, not with comparable professionals like teachers, let alone non- professional "middle Americans." Their questions were ambiguous and loaded (for a good analysis, see Herbert Gans, "Are U.S. Journalists Dangerously Liberal?," Columbia Journalism Review, Nov.-Dec. 1985), making one wonder why anyone would participate in this survey. And in fact, Ben Bradlee, the top editor of the Washington Post--one of the papers allegedly sampled by LR--claimed that he couldn't locate a single employee who had participated in the LR survey.

One key technique of right-wing proofs of liberal bias is to focus on social issues, as the affluent and urban media journalists and editors do tend to be more liberal than blue collar workers on issues like abortion-choice, gay rights, and the handling of drug problems, as are urban professionals across the board. On the other hand, on matters like government regulation, distrust of big business, income distribution, and jobs policies, "middle America" is to the left of the business and media elite. Rightwingers like LR handle this by bypassing the problematic areas and focusing on social issues, where they can score points.

Right-wing proofs of a liberal media also focus on voting patterns. The 1981 LR piece featured the pro-Democrat voting records of the media elite in the four elections between 1964 and 1976. In April 1996 a similar finding was published by the Roper Center and Gannett Freedom Forum; 89% of a sample of 139 Washington journalists allegedly voted for Clinton in 1992. The inference quickly drawn from this, as from the LR study, was that the media has a liberal bias. But the true media elite is the owners, who have legal control of the media companies, can hire, promote and fire their employees, and can shape policy a la Malone and Murdoch. LR and their allies never poll owners.

There are other questions to be asked in regard to these conservative polls. Why don't they compare the media elite's views on NAFTA with the views of middle America? How can we explain the mainstream media's failure to focus on the declining economic position and insecurity of middle Americans as an election issue? How can we explain the fact that a majority of newspapers came out editorially for Bob Dole with the "liberals" controlling the media? How can we explain the steady attacks on Clinton's character and focus on Whitewater, and more cursory treatment of Iran-contra and the Banco Lavoro case, in terms of a pro-Democrat bias? In what sense is Clinton a "liberal" anyway?

These and other questions can be answered by media analyses that focus on the control, funding, structure, and performance of the media, rather than reporter opinions and voting patterns. For example, the "propaganda model," which Noam Chomsky and I spelled out in Manufacturing Consent, describes the working of the mainstream media in terms of underlying structural factors and "filters" that define the parameters within which media underlings work. These constraints and filters include ownership and the financial pressures for bottom line performance; the need to adapt to the interests of advertisers, who pay the media bills; sourcing processes which cause journalists to depend heavily on government and business newsmakers; the threat of flak, which keeps the journalists under pressure and in line; and anticommunist and market-supportive premises that journalists internalize. The right-wing pundits and their echo chamber fit into this model quite nicely, which is why General Electric and the advertising community give them generous support.

It should be noted that FAIR, in its bimonthly publication EXTRA!, has provided numerous studies with compelling evidence of conservative domination of talk shows and public broadcasting. With the exception of their study of the huge bias in the selection of guests on Nightline, their efforts have been given much less attention in the mainstream media than right-wing "proofs" of liberal media bias as pronounced by Lichter and Rothman and the recent Roper--Gannett study. This is a reflection of genuine media bias, with the right-wing network always able to push congenial findings into the echo chamber, giving themselves and their principals a boost. But this publicity and neglect of the superior FAIR offerings are living proof that the claim of "liberal bias" is a lie and that the reality is one of illiberal domination.

 
11spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 08:26
THE DEMOCRACY ILLUSION:

Andrew Marr Of 'The Independent' Interviews Noam Chomsky





Most of us believe we live in a basically free society. This is true to such an extent that the preceding sentence will strike many people as simply bizarre: what possible motive could anyone have for stating such a thing? We might also like to mention that it is quite nice to breathe air! Everyone agrees it is nice to breathe air but this is hardly a promising topic for discussion. The evidence for our freedom is there for all to see: there are no thought police, we are not dragged from our beds in the middle of the night. The vast array of newspapers and periodicals available to us are proof that we have access to a wide spectrum of ideas. And from amongst this vast array, we can find barely one word to suggest that we are not basically free - agreement seems unanimous: the idea that we might not be free is a nonissue. Indeed, as we all know, our 'free press' is all about the defense, not the attainment, of freedom - a vigil maintained by those notoriously dogged news-hounds sniffing out all facts, all instances of deception and sleaze. If anything, the press "watchdog" sometimes (Vietnam, Watergate, the Gulf War) seems to go too far, threatening to throw an anarchistic spanner in the works of Liberty.



Advertising supremo Maurice Saatchi summed up what many people take for granted when he wrote recently that we live in a "democracy of information... now nothing is hidden. Now we know everything." Reassuringly Saatchi asserted that we are free even to know "the precise ingredients of a packet of cornflakes.11

Professor Noam Chomsky of MIT says that though this seems for all the world like rational common sense, it is actually an illusion that dissolves to nothing under close scrutiny. We are free, but only to know certain facts, only to think certain ideas - power ensures that costly facts and costly ideas are removed to the margins of social discourse and beyond.

Nobody, least of all Chomsky, expects anyone to take this simply on trust - we need to examine the arguments, weigh the evidence. This is not as straight-forward as it might seem: Chomsky's assertion that costly facts and ideas are ignored by the mainstream has, itself, been ignored by the mainstream such that most of us are unaware of it. Two reasons spring to mind: either Chomsky is talking nonsense, or he is correct.

Actually, Chomsky is not totally ignored, he makes it onto mainstream television a couple of times a decade. On the rare occasions when an appearance is granted, we are able to make a judgment between Chomsky as purveyor of absurdities and Chomsky as victim of his own theory of thought control. Such an opportunity came our way recently when Chomsky was interviewed by Andrew Marr of The independent. This encounter was particularly significant as Chomsky was here facing a mainstream journalist convinced that we have a more or less free press. Chomsky was very much preaching to the unconverted and so we had a chance to see how his radical critique held up against what to most people is simple common sense.



Where Egos Dare! The Somnambulist

The arena was BBC2's 'The Big Ideal, on February 14, 1996 at 11:15, one of a series of thirty-minute interviews. It had all the makings of a classic brawl: Chomsky, the grizzled street-fighting linguist, who learned his trade in and around New York' s anarchist book stores and newsstands. Marr - The Independent's much-vaunted "Columnist of the year" and chief political correspondent - every inch 'the kid', right down to his baby-face complexion and unruly carrot top. The fight was generally clean, Chomsky leading with hard facts and countering with bitter irony, "If you believed something different you wouldn't be sitting where you are", and willing to rough it up in the clinches: "If you're interested in facts I'll tell you what they are and I'll even give you sources... Sorry ... Sorry ... May I continue? ... 11 etc.

Marr's preparation for the contest appears to have been relaxed to the point of somnolent. Here, after all, was a respected journalist squaring up to Chomsky, a notoriously tenacious intellectual opponent (one prominent British intellectual warned a colleague against getting into a dispute with Chomsky, describing him as "a terrible and relentless opponent". A New York Times Book Reviewer wrote that "Reading Chomsky.... one repeatedly has the impression of attending to one of the more powerful thinkers who ever lived"). What was amazing, then, was the fact that, while knowing enough about Chomsky's arguments to debate them, Marr did not know enough to be aware of Chomsky's countless refutations of exactly the objections he planned to raise. Either Marr had not read Chomsky's political works, or he had read them half-asleep, and, as one reviewer wrote "Not to have read [Chomskyl ... is to court genuine ignorance" - publicly so on TV.

The interview centered around Edward Herman and Chomsky's propaganda model of media control. The introduction was indicative of much that was to come. An ominous clip of Big Brother from a film of Orwell's 1984 set the ball rolling. "The idea that Orwell's warning" about thought control and propaganda "is still relevant may seem bizarre," Marr's voice-over intoned, thus immediately revealing his flawed understanding. Moments later Marr asked his audience to consider whether it were possible that the media is "designed to limit how you imagine the world?" Chomsky's whole point - as is well-known to all who have troubled to read his books - is that thought control in democratic societies does not happen through totalitarian, Big Brother-style mechanisms but is the result of a filtering process empowered by economic and political power operating in a free market system - there is no design, no conspiracy. Through a complex and subtle process, certain ideas, certain ways of looking at the world, are promoted and come to f ind their way into our heads. This is a sort of negative thought control - we are controlled as much by what is not there, as by what is. It is not that we are prevented from choosing business-unfriendly facts and ideas, we just never encounter them and so assume they do not exist. Children are not forced to choose from a wide range of careers within the one corporate system, they are not deliberately brainwashed into believing that this is freedom. They are convinced that they are making a free choice because society functions in such a way that they are unaware of alternatives. Moreover they are unaware that they are unaware, so that the options confronting them seem to be "just how life is". As Chomsky has pointed out many times, this is way beyond Orwell who wrote about crude, Soviet-style propaganda and whose understanding of the possibilities of non-conspiratorial, democratic thought control was limited in the extreme.

Continuing his introduction, Marr proceeded to cite the Indonesian genocide in East Timor as an example of Chomsky's propaganda system in action, claiming that Timor was ignored "because we were selling arms to the aggressors." Unfortunately for Marr, this interpretation is itself a prime example of the propaganda system in action. In reality, Chomsky (and others like Herman, Pilger, Curtis, Zinn) argues that the slaughter in Timor has gone unreported for two decades for far more deep-seated reasons. Firstly, Indonesian dictator Suharto is a Western client originally installed by the United States, which supplied arms, intelligence and other assistance during the Indonesian massacre of some 600,000 "communists" under Suharto beginning in 1965. In return, Suharto has consistently maintained a "good investment climate" for foreign companies operating in Indonesia, meaning: low-wage labor, forcible suppression of unions, extra-judicial killings, torture, death squads, minimal environmental protection and the general militaristic control of the economy to suit the elite at home and abroad. East Timor had gained independence from Portugal in 1975 and was looking to re-main independent. This, however, Chomsky argues, was not then, and is not now, permitted in the post-war world. To seek to remove Third World resources out from under Western control was to be immediately branded part of the communist menace - the standard cover for an attack designed to reassert Western control and to prevent any "demonstration effect" of successful nationalist development on other Third World victims of Western 'development'.

There were other reasons: Indonesia was a major Western ally that it was deemed important to 'keep sweet' following the partial failure of the war in Vietnam (an attempt at independent nationalist development which, while not completely destroyed, was sufficiently wrecked to suppress the threat of any demonstration effect). other motivations include vast reserves of oil and gas in the Timor Gap (Timorese wealth which is currently being divided up between Indonesia and Australia) and, yes, the United States made a tidy profit from supplying 90% of the arms used for the "annihilation of a simple mountain people" in East Timor.The silence over the genocide in Timor was not just about pressure from the arms lobby (a rather absurd conspiracy theory). It was part of a much deeper silence surrounding the Western program to install and support Third World dictators to guarantee cheap access to local resources and so maintain the flow of profits from South to North. Democracy is not an option for the Third World (it is not that they have a love of Hitlerian tyrants decked out in Western-style uniforms), if by democracy we mean local control of resources for the benefit of the majority of local people. Journalists who try to elucidate the controlling Western role in this "political economy of brutality", or who even attempt to draw attention to specific cases involving Western clients (Indonesia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Israel, Nicaragua, etc.) can forget a career in the mainstream.

This framework of understanding - exactly contradicting the usual media line of the West as benevolent supporter of global democracy, peace and human rights - is not discussible, not even thinkable, in the mainstream: hence Marr's necessary, albeit unconscious, misrepresentation of the facts.



Cat Among The Clichés

Marr began his discussion with Chomsky by suggesting that we live in "an age of relative media diversity, in the age of the Internet". Relative to what? one might ask. In 'Manufacturing Consent (The Political Economy of the Mass Media)' - the book in which Herman and Chomsky first present the propaganda model Herman and Chomsky point out that there was once far greater diversity in the media than is currently the case. A prime example is that which arose out of the vibrant working class culture of the thirties and forties and allowed genuine representation of working class interests. In fact there has been a dramatic narrowing of control by corporate interests over recent years. At time of writing around twenty-three corporations own and control 50% of the US media business (newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, book publishers). As for UK media diversity, historian Mark Curtis reports that, "the basic facts about the motivations and effects of British and Western foreign policy cannot be expressed in mainstream media and academic circles". Globally, John Pilger reports that 90 percent of the world's agency news is controlled by four Western news agencies.

The move away from genuine media diversity (as opposed to differences in name and appearance) is partly the result of changes in technology which make the launching of, say, a newspaper ever more expensive and thus increasingly the preserve of the wealthy. It is also the result of an increase in dependence on advertising such that business-friendly media generate more advertising revenue, are able to invest more in a glossier product, promotions, lower copy price, etc., so tilting media evolution towards unnatural selection favoring corporate interests. As Chomsky pointed out in the interview, the Daily Herald, a socialist newspaper, failed in Britain despite having twice the readership of The Times, the Financial Times and The Guardian put together. The problem was that, despite having 8.1 percent of national daily circulation, the Herald had only 3.5 percent of net advertising revenue. The Herald, for obvious reasons, was not sufficiently business-friendly and so was pushed out of the market by media that were.



But take the Vietnam war, Marr continued - here was a case of huge opposition to the war which was fully visible in the press. What would we have heard without a propaganda system? Pretty much what we heard about the Soviet assault on Afghanistan, Chomsky replied: namely, that the United States was not defending but attacking Vietnam in support of a corrupt and murderous South Vietnamese client dictatorship by use of massive bombing of civilians and outright invasion. "What I don't get," Marr continued, is that all of this "suggests - I'm a journalist people like me, are self-censoring".

Chomsky argued that this is not so: journalists are a product of a state- and corporate-run filter system operative throughout politics, culture and education. Children are trained to defer to experts, to repeat what they are told by learned authorities, and to suppress their own doubts and independent conclusions. As children and adults rise up the educational and career ladder they are selected for obedience and subservience (such as the willingness, for example, to put aside reservations and do as they are told for the sake of career advancement). Winners are intelligent and free-thinking, but only within certain parameters. These parameters will generally not be recognized by those who 'succeed' but will seem to be "all there is"; a conclusion bolstered by the perennial human tendency to believe what it is convenient to believe. As Chomsky has said elsewhere:

"In order to progress you have to say certain things; what the copy editor wants, what the top editor is giving back to you. You can try saying it and not believing it, but that's not going to work, people just aren't that dishonest, you can't live with that, it's a very rare person who can do that. So you start saying it and pretty soon you're believing it because you're saying it, and pretty soon you're inside the system. Furthermore, there are plenty of rewards if you stay inside. For people who play the game by the rules in a rich society like this, there are ample rewards. You're well off, you're privileged, you're rich, you have prestige, you have a share of power if you want."

At this point the interview became almost psychotherapeutic, with Marr being confronted with his own conformity, his own passage through the filter system to "columnist of the year", where one of his jobs is to take seriously, and to persuade us to take seriously, the idea that the choice between Tories and 'New' Labor makes for a meaningful democracy. Marr's job is to present the parliamentary storms within the propaganda tea cup as world-shaking. The reality, as John Dewey said, is that "so long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business, the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance".

What we call politics is really a shadow play conducted by corporate power. Parliament is the buffer between the popular desire for democracy and the reality of corporate rule. People, after all, are unlikely to resist that rule so long as politicians (and journalists) succeed in persuading us that it is not there; that in fact it is we who are in control. The mass media plays a crucial role in supporting the democracy illusion by pretending that the arguments presented to us - together with the parties we are allowed to choose from - constitute a free and fair spectrum of choices, which are our choices, and not what is left after state and corporate power have filtered out choices that threaten to interfere. One of the choices deemed unfit for public consumption is the idea that the mass media is a propaganda system.

But, Marr beseeched, there are "a lot of disputatious, stroppy, difficult people in journalism, and I have to say I think I know some of them." Chomsky replied that he also knows some of "the better" journalists and they know it's all a sham and play the system "like a violin", looking for occasional windows of opportunity to get things through. Chomsky accepted that Marr was sincere in his beliefs but then "If you believed something different you wouldn't be sitting where you're sitting."



"Politics Funnier Than Words Can Express ..."

Marr referred Chomsky to the Gulf War, pointing out that he was "very, very well aware of the anti-gulf war dissidents - the 'no blood for oil' campaign." "That's not the dissident position", Chomsky interrupted. "No blood for oil, isn't the dissidents... !I Marr replied incredulously. As with East Timor, Marr had again unwittingly demonstrated how the propaganda system operates: here, by presenting a false version of the actual dissident view which is ignored, goes unreported and is thus unknown.

Chomsky pointed out that the real dissident argument was that a peaceful, negotiated settlement to the Gulf crisis was possible even from August 1991 and increasingly so as allied forces threatened to wreck havoc on Iraq. It is not simply that sanctions might eventually have worked, they might already have done their job. The real problem was that, far from seeking a peaceful resolution, the Bush administration was fearful that Iraq might pull out before an attack could be launched. Thus all peace initiatives were powerfully suppressed and simply did not appear in the mainstream US media - this was true even for high-ranking US officials like Richard Helm who tried to get media coverage. The US State Department, itself, Chomsky argued, considered the problem negotiable but the press would not cover it.

Former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark has gone so far as to suggest that the US was actively seeking confrontation, and had lured Iraq to invade Kuwait by encouraging the latter to overproduce oil. This caused oil prices to fall, so seriously damaging the Iraqi economy seeking to recover from the eight-year long war with Iran - much to Saddam's ire. Simultaneously, the US assured Saddam that it had "no position on Arab-Arab conflicts." Clark suggests that, as an independent nationalist obstacle to Western control of oil, Iraq was targeted for destruction. Hence the insistence of "no negotiations" - itself a breech of the United Nations Charter. Clark argues that:

"It was not Iraq but powerful forces in the United States that wanted a new war in the Middle East: the Pentagon, to maintain its tremendous budget; the military-industrial complex, with its dependence on Middle East arms sales and domestic military contracts; the oil companies, which wanted more control over the price of crude oil and greater profits; and the Bush ad-ministration, which saw in the Soviet Union's disintegration its chance to establish a permanent military presence in the Middle east, securing the region and achieving vast geopolitical power into the next century through control of its oil resources."

Having invaded Kuwait, Clark argues that Iraq was not at all intent on staying. He quotes a democratic staff member for intelligence oversight:

"The Iraqis apparently believed that having invaded Kuwait, they would get everyone's attention, negotiate improvements to their economic situation, and pull out... [A] diplomatic solution satisfactory to the interests of the United States may well have been possible since the earliest days of the invasion."

This is a sample of the real dissident position; not the "No blood for oil" argument. The media did inform us that many people objected to killing for oil but it never got near the idea that the war might have been part of a plan to devastate an obstacle to Western profits, or that peaceful withdrawal was a genuine possibility, and a genuine fear of our leaders.

Marr chose not to respond and moved on to Watergate, assumed to be the classic example of how the free press can humble the powers that be. After all, Marr said, "This brought down a president." Chomsky, however, argued that Watergate is a perfect example of just how servile the press is to power. Watergate was, he has said elsewhere, "small potatoes" compared to what the state secret police - the FBI - had long been doing to socialist, black and women's movements under the COINTELPRO program. "Sorry, you'll have to explain that," Marr chipped in. Exactly! Chomsky replied, he had to explain the meaning of COINTELPRO, whereas Marr assuredly knew all about Watergate - point made.

What Marr did not know about was a vast campaign of political subversion that went all the way from bugging, theft and sabotage, to political assassination organized by the FBI under four administrations. By comparison, the Republican Watergate shenanigans were a trivial sideshow. The reason the latter became headline news was, as Chomsky explained, that one half of US political power started to mess with the other half, and that is not allowed - hence the fall of Nixon and widespread press coverage.

Watergate showed, not that the US has a free press, but that powerful interests in the US are capable of defending themselves against attack. By contrast, when minority movements without power are attacked there is no way through the propaganda system and the f acts go unreported. Thus, once again in a way completely contrary to the common understanding, Chomsky argued that:

"There couldn't be a more dramatic example of the subordination of educated opinion to power here in England as well as in the United States."

"It still seems to me," Marr proposed gamely, that "on a range of issues there is serious dissent," Gingrich, for example, has been "savagely lampooned". Again, Marr managed to miss the point. It is fine to lampoon Gingrich, just as it is fine to lampoon Major and Blair. The point is that this type of dissent is restricted within parameters so narrow that all serious dissent is excluded and so real power is unthreatened. Henry Adams explained how it works in a letter to a friend:

"We are here plunged in politics funnier than words can express. Very great issues are involved... But the amusing thing is that no one talks about real interests. By common consent they agree to let these alone. We are afraid to discuss them. Instead of this the press is engaged in a most amusing dispute whether Mr. Cleveland had an illegitimate child and did or did not live with more than one mistress.,

As discussed, it is the job of politicians to act as a buffer between populace and power, to distract us from real issues, f rom real obstacles to democracy. If necessary, a politician like Nixon can be sacrificed and the myth promulgated that the one 'bad apple' has been purged from an essentially good 'barrel'. Politicians are representatives, not of the people to be sure, but of corporations. They are functionaries who have to abide by the basic rules or are out.

But what about NAFTA? Marr countered, "We were well aware of the [counter-] arguments" presented by unions, environmentalists and so on. "That's flatly false," Chomsky responded. The two bickered for a few moments: "We were", "You weren't", "We were". Chomsky pointed out that the crucial dissident responses, the widespread and profound objections to NAFTA, were suppressed and replaced by "Mexico bashing" and the concern about losing jobs. The real issues: that the treaty was organized and signed in secret in a way that largely circumvented democratic procedures - whereby unions were supposed to be allowed to comment on the treaty, and so on - were ignored. Instead, a barrage of media publicity railed against union strong-arm tactics in pressuring politicians, while the massive pressure applied by corporate lobbyists went unnoticed. The corporate solidarity in favor of NAFTA was such that genuine discussion of the issues was nowhere to be found in the mainstream. But what about "sleaze?" Marr asked. Apparently many of the politicians he is acquainted with are "deeply irritated" indeed "furious" about media intrusions into their private lives, and we hear no end of tales about sexual misdemeanors and corruption. Sure, Chomsky said, but that's of marginal importance. Corporate power is in favor of "law and order" (on its terms) and is certainly opposed to corruption, which acts as a drain on profits and interferes with the control of society. In India fully one-third of the economy is "black", a fact that is not at all popular with transnationals. Also, as Henry Adams indicated, sex scandals, corruption and sleaze all serve the important function of keeping us stupid by diverting us from what really matters. While we are focusing on royal love lives, or what politicians like to wear in bed, we are assuredly not focusing on the real, systemic issues which should be central to everyone concerned with democracy: such as the fact that, quite regardless of the personalities and behavior of individual politicians, modern democracies are hopelessly compromised by the immense influence of large corporations, which have the power to manipulate governments and economies simply by threat of capital flight and other measures.

In the age of GATT, IMF, the World Bank, and the global economy more generally, any government seeking to seriously interfere with corporate profits would very quickly find its economy pulled out from under its feet. Indicatively, the IMF recently agreed to lend up to $13 billion dollars to Yeltsin's regime, paid in installments, which may be canceled if the Russian government fails to deliver on agreed economic targets. The message for voters in the forthcoming presidential election is clear: do as we want, or the money dries up - as would surely be the case were the Communists to return to power and attempt to serve national rather than international interests. This is economic blackmail on a grand-scale, though the implications for democracy in Russia (and our respect for it) are not discussed in the mainstream here. 'New' labor can be seen as a response to the same basic pressure. As in Russia, a genuinely socialist government in Britain would have no chance of survival against corporate (including corporate media) pressure and so our real choice is limited to the left and right wing of the one Business Party. This is democracy - corporate-style.

By way of a strangely inappropriate concluding question - one which supports Chom8ky's contention that "within the mainstream it is barely even possible to hear the arguments" - Marr asked Chomsky: "What would a press be like, do you think, without a propaganda model [sic)? What would we be reading in the papers that we don't read now?" Chomsky reminded Marr that he had just given dozens of examples - examples, moreover, that had been chosen by Marr. Chomsky could have chosen different ones which might have made his task easier.

Finally, how much hope is there in the Internet? As Chomsky suggested, the struggle taking place for the independence of the Internet is nothing new. First of all it is essentially an elite operation (most of the people in the world have no access to a phone let alone a computer). More importantly, a similar battle already took place in the 1920s over radio which, initially, was viewed as a public resource. There were no limits on the number of stations, no reason why the airwaves should belong to anyone in particular. Nevertheless radio fell under corporate control and, today, with the exception of a few marginal voices, there is little dissent.



"Deceived Deceivers"

Barring a toothy grin from Marr and a wry smile from Chomsky, the interview was over. It was a rare and illuminating event. Chomsky was interviewed by Peter Jay on TV in the 170s, and by Bill Moyers in the 180s, but never have we seen Chomsky discuss the propaganda model in such detail with a mainstream journalist. The public response to these appearances is interesting. The Moyers interview generated 1,000 letters from readers (more than the program had received for almost any other interview). When Chomsky appeared on TV Ontario in 1985, the phone-in number registered 31,321 calls - a station record. John Pilger - who regularly applies the propaganda model in his reporting - reports that when his Timor documentary "Death of a Nation" was shown on Channel Four, British Telecom registered 4,000 calls a minute to the number displayed at the end of the program. The public enthusiasm for this type of analysis is clear; the enthusiasm of the corporate media less so.

With Marr's 'The Big Ideal we had a chance to see the ideas that have been dismissed by the mainstream as "the most absolute rubbish" (Tom Wolfe), as "that stuff to me looks like it's from Neptune" (Jeff Greenfield), pitted against one of the media’s finest. The result was fascinating. We saw that journalists like Marr are intelligent, lucid and rational, but only within parameters that preclude a deeper understanding of what is really happening in the world. We saw how the illusion of media diversity is maintained by presenting superficial and trivialized versions of the true dissident position. Above all, perhaps, we saw how journalists are intellectual herd animals who instinctively seek safety among the tried but rarely tested clichés of the mainstream: Watergate proves we have an antiestablishment free press, media-coverage virtually ended the Vietnam war, and so on. Normally this tactic succeeds in eliciting eager nods of agreement, or a humble shrug of 'I suppose you're right'. When confronted by a Chomsky, however, the facade of great expertise and intellectuality that is the stock-in-trade of the journalist, and which is normally so intimidating to the average viewer/reader, is quickly demolished. Interestingly, the reaction of the viewer to the spectacle of this intellectual debagging is not surprise but relief: 'I was right all along, and I thought it was just me!'

To listen to, and take seriously, mainstream journalists like Marr - who is undoubtedly an honest and sincere individual - is to be stifled and bemused by a necessarily superficial, misleading and confusing version of reality that cannot make sense because it cannot address the real issues. Marr is not a liar and he is not a crude propagandist, he is the unwitting result of a system that selects for the ability to talk intelligently and convincingly about anything and everything, so long as it is not genuinely costly to power. The crucial factor is that individuals be able to do this sincerely, and with the firm conviction that they are telling the uncompromised, freely-expressed truth. This, in the end, is the real genius of the modern system of thought control: it is very subtle, invisible and its greatest victims are often not the deceived but the deceivers themselves.

 
12Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Sat, Dec 09, 10:09
Let me take a guess. You've never read anybodies link and you don't trust anyone else will read yours so your just going to keep on cut'n'pastin' 'War and Peace'.
 
13Sludge
      ID: 20421222
      Sat, Dec 09, 10:11
Holy moly!
 
14hoops boy
      ID: 51440922
      Sat, Dec 09, 10:14
well, some lengthy reads there spach, let me address each one seperatly. It seems to me that the differences in liberal vs. conservative media is that mainstream media (CNN,NBC,ABC,CBS,NYT?) tends to lean towards liberal views, and I base this on the above examples given before your posts. While there is a large amount of conservative media, imo, anytime it is mentioned it is *generally* debunked as being conservative media. Yes, AM radio is filled with conservative talk show hosts, but how many of those hosts are considered legit journalists by a majority of americans? Rush certainly is not, nor am I saying he should be, but then why should we take other reporters more seriously when they misrepresent facts that skew things towards democratic leanings? This is where I think the notion of liberal media really is played out, we all understand where 700 club and pat robertson are comeing from, and most do not consider them as "legitimate" journalists, so when you look at the remaining group, you see a liberal bias. I do think this is somewhat subjective though, as I stated above, I have often seen information posted by liberal suporters that was pretty good evidence of a conservative slant by media on a lot of issues, but as individuals watch a story unfold, they are more likely to pick out things they are skeptical of (that go against thier views) becuase if they are not skeptical of i9t, the assume that the "truth" is being reported.

One other thing, if find the following a very intresting example to be giveing in favor of conservative controlled media: "And leftists are an extinct species in the mainstream media; the firing of Jim Hightower by ABC, immediately following the Disney acquisition, was like the passing of the last carrier pigeon...".

While this would imply that Disny has pushed a conservative viewpoint upon abc, this seems hard to believe given disneys incredibly liberal stance on spousal benifits for gay partners, as well as the hiring of Dennis Millar over Rush Limbaugh for MNF. (hey, this actually ties into sports :) It was widely reported that ABC was concerned that Rush would be too conservative, and present his conservative views, to be a sportscaster on MNF. Conversly in hireing Miller, they picked someone who is highly liberal in his personal views and who is actually more likely to be able to influence people with those views becuase he does not have a stigma of sorts place upon him like Rush does. This seems like hardly the move someone would make if they were trying to assert conservative viewpoints.
 
15Sludge
      ID: 20421222
      Sat, Dec 09, 10:17
Including names, id #'s, and dates, Word 2000 counts 9,220 words on this thread. 7,732 of which are from spach's two posts. Talk about shouting over your opponents.
 
16hoops boy
      ID: 51440922
      Sat, Dec 09, 10:25
The problem I have with Chommskys theory is that is is a circular arguement. You wont hear X in mainstream media becuase it is filtered, and if you were to hear X in the mainstream, it wouldnt really be X becuase it couldnt have gotten into mainstream media if it were really X.

IMO, the internet could be used as a vehicle for this type of information, so I am curious as to why it is not. There are little/no barriors to entry, and no concern for censorship, which seems to leave a question of validity as the main reason this doesnt reach a wider audience. This is not anything new, check out alt.conspirecy.helicopeters.black and its ilk, these people continually thrust the notion that there are a lot of things going on that we do not know about, and that those in control dont want us to know about, but for some reason they seem to lack the needed proof to get thier ideas mainstream.

As an aside, I do tend to agree with Naders view of the "two candidates of the corporate party" mantra, and I do agree that a lot of issues were completly overlooked by the campaigning of this elections, and it is not coincidence that many of these issues help coperate america if they are ignored. Of course, if we follow chomskies mantra, then the issues Nader raises will be moot (if not moot already) becuase they only way he can raise any concerns is if "corporate america" approves of his anti-corporate messages, therby negateing them as real concerns.
 
17spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 12:08
Sludge: I wasn't shouting. You use CAPS for shouting. I just found two good articles.
 
18spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 12:16
hoops(#14): I'm not going to argue whether mainstream media is socially liberal. It probably is. But it is not economically liberal. There has been no coverage of issues like living wages, the declining living standard, society costs of massive capital blown on corporate acquisitions, etc. Corporate media lets America have a debate on social issues only. Somehow, we generally believe that because we are debating half the pie, we're having a full debate.
 
19spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 12:26
hoops (#16): Chomsky's theory works. One piece of evidence it works is because the only time "anti-corporate" coverage happens is when it is being portrayed as a strange fringe message. You said yourself that the anti-corporate issues were completely overlooked in this campaign, and the messenger, the Green Party, has been utterly annihilated by the charge the Greens cost Gore the election. The mainstream media didn't even notice the Greens until they could blame them for something.
 
20Madman
      ID: 610552719
      Sat, Dec 09, 12:45
In the FSC opinion, they specifically said they did not know whether PBC awarded 215 or 176 votes to Gore. Yet, CNN blindly accepted the 215 vote figure, and had to retract today.
 
21spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 12:55
My roommate had NPR on and they used the phrase "as many as 215."
 
22nerveclinic
      ID: 441058281
      Sat, Dec 09, 13:15
Baldwin

I only commented on your first paragraph because it contained false statements that I was able to refute. I have heard over and over the supreme court of Florida were all appointed by democrats and you said it is never mentioned. That's why I was commenting.

I don't disagree with the premise that the media is liberal, but it is also very conservative. Some of the biggest talk radio hosts in the country are conservatives (Limbo and Dr Laura.)
Lots of talking heads on the sunday shows are conservative (Can't name them because I get so board everytinme I watch I turn it off.) Fox television is loaded with conservatives.

Both sides are represented for the reasons I listed above. It is absurd to say it is just liberal. (And what you really mean is pro democrat not liberal, most liberals I know didn't vote for Gore and they don't feel their views are represented at all on the news i.e. WTO issues)


As far as your other points I don't disagree about Baldwin he is a jerk and a puppy dog for the demos so why would I argue the point?

The sniper comment I know nothing about but anyone who refers to assasinating someone is making a hateful statement so I won't argue that.

I was just correcting an absurdly false statement about the florida supreme court.

Is that cool? 8]


 
23hoops boy
      ID: 51440922
      Sat, Dec 09, 13:20
spach-> your wrong about no coverage of issues like the declining living standard, just a couple weeks ago I watched a special showing how many people in food lines have cable tv... oh, you mean from a socially liberal standpoint :-)

Thats probably how it really ends up, the media personal are socially liberal, and therefore support democrats either subliminaly or overtly. While thier "media bosses" push an economicly conservative message, what most pubs see is democrat supporting "journalist" biasing news against them, and media people like rush are written off as journalists becuase they present a socially conservative viewpoint.
 
24hoops boy
      ID: 51440922
      Sat, Dec 09, 13:28
spach (#19), of course his theory works, thats the beauty of circular arguements!
follow:
a: the bible is the word of god.
b: how do you know it really is the word of god?
a: becuase it says so in the bible.
b: but how do you know the bible is correct?
a: becuase the bible is the word of god.
repeat ad nasuem...
 
25Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Sat, Dec 09, 13:36
Nerveclinic

I have the patent and copyright for that emoticon. My people will be in touch with your people. 8]
 
26spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 14:03
This responds to the "circular thinking" charge made about Chomsky's Manufacture of Consent theory about the media.

What Makes Mainstream Media Mainstream

From a talk at Z Media Institute June 1997

By Noam Chomsky



Part of the reason why I write about the media is because I am interested in the whole intellectual culture, and the part of it that is easiest to study is the media. It comes out every day. You can do a systematic investigation. You can compare yesterday’s version to today’s version. There is a lot of evidence about what’s played up and what isn’t and the way things are structured.

My impression is the media aren’t very different from scholarship or from, say, journals of intellectual opinion—there are some extra constraints—but it’s not radically different. They interact, which is why people go up and back quite easily among them.

You look at the media, or at any institution you want to understand. You ask questions about its internal institutional structure. You want to know something about their setting in the broader society. How do they relate to other systems of power and authority? If you’re lucky, there is an internal record from leading people in the information system which tells you what they are up to (it is sort of a doctrinal system). That doesn’t mean the public relations handouts but what they say to each other about what they are up to. There is quite a lot of interesting documentation.

Those are three major sources of information about the nature of the media. You want to study them the way, say, a scientist would study some complex molecule or something. You take a look at the structure and then make some hypothesis based on the structure as to what the media product is likely to look like. Then you investigate the media product and see how well it conforms to the hypotheses. Virtually all work in media analysis is this last part—trying to study carefully just what the media product is and whether it conforms to obvious assumptions about the nature and structure of the media.

Well, what do you find? First of all, you find that there are different media which do different things, like the entertainment/Hollywood, soap operas, and so on, or even most of the newspapers in the country (the overwhelming majority of them). They are directing the mass audience.

There is another sector of the media, the elite media, sometimes called the agenda-setting media because they are the ones with the big resources, they set the framework in which everyone else operates. The New York Times and CBS, that kind of thing. Their audience is mostly privileged people. The people who read the New York Times—people who are wealthy or part of what is sometimes called the political class—they are actually involved in the political system in an ongoing fashion. They are basically managers of one sort or another. They can be political managers, business managers (like corporate executives or that sort of thing), doctoral managers (like university professors), or other journalists who are involved in organizing the way people think and look at things.

The elite media set a framework within which others operate. If you are watching the Associated Press, who grind out a constant flow of news, in the mid-afternoon it breaks and there is something that comes along every day that says "Notice to Editors: Tomorrow’s New York Times is going to have the following stories on the front page." The point of that is, if you’re an editor of a newspaper in Dayton, Ohio and you don’t have the resources to figure out what the news is, or you don’t want to think about it anyway, this tells you what the news is. These are the stories for the quarter page that you are going to devote to something other than local affairs or diverting your audience. These are the stories that you put there because that’s what the New York Times tells us is what you’re supposed to care about tomorrow. If you are an editor in Dayton, Ohio, you would sort of have to do that, because you don’t have much else in the way of resources. If you get off line, if you’re producing stories that the big press doesn’t like, you’ll hear about it pretty soon. In fact, what just happened at San Jose Mercury News is a dramatic example of this. So there are a lot of ways in which power plays can drive you right back into line if you move out. If you try to break the mold, you’re not going to last long. That framework works pretty well, and it is understandable that it is just a reflection of obvious power structures.

The real mass media are basically trying to divert people. Let them do something else, but don’t bother us (us being the people who run the show). Let them get interested in professional sports, for example. Let everybody be crazed about professional sports or sex scandals or the personalities and their problems or something like that. Anything, as long as it isn’t serious. Of course, the serious stuff is for the big guys. "We" take care of that.

What are the elite media, the agenda-setting ones? The New York Times and CBS, for example. Well, first of all, they are major, very profitable, corporations. Furthermore, most of them are either linked to, or outright owned by, much bigger corporations, like General Electric, Westinghouse, and so on. They are way up at the top of the power structure of the private economy which is a very tyrannical structure. Corporations are basically tyrannies, hierarchic, controled from above. If you don’t like what they are doing you get out. The major media are just part of that system.

What about their institutional setting? Well, that’s more or less the same. What they interact with and relate to is other major power centers—the government, other corporations, or the universities. Because the media are a doctrinal system they interact closely with the universities. Say you are a reporter writing a story on Southeast Asia or Africa, or something like that. You’re supposed to go over to the big university and find an expert who will tell you what to write, or else go to one of the foundations, like Brookings Institute or American Enterprise Institute and they will give you the words to say. These outside institutions are very similar to the media.

The universities, for example, are not independent institutions. There may be independent people scattered around in them but that is true of the media as well. And it’s generally true of corporations. It’s true of Fascist states, for that matter. But the institution itself is parasitic. It’s dependent on outside sources of support and those sources of support, such as private wealth, big corporations with grants, and the government (which is so closely interlinked with corporate power you can barely distinguish them), they are essentially what the universities are in the middle of. People within them, who don’t adjust to that structure, who don’t accept it and internalize it (you can’t really work with it unless you internalize it, and believe it); people who don’t do that are likely to be weeded out along the way, starting from kindergarten, all the way up. There are all sorts of filtering devices to get rid of people who are a pain in the neck and think independently. Those of you who have been through college know that the educational system is very highly geared to rewarding conformity and obedience; if you don’t do that, you are a troublemaker. So, it is kind of a filtering device which ends up with people who really honestly (they aren’t lying) internalize the framework of belief and attitudes of the surrounding power system in the society. The elite institutions like, say, Harvard and Princeton and the small upscale colleges, for example, are very much geared to socialization. If you go through a place like Harvard, most of what goes on there is teaching manners; how to behave like a member of the upper classes, how to think the right thoughts, and so on.

If you’ve read George Orwell’s Animal Farm which he wrote in the mid-1940s, it was a satire on the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state. It was a big hit. Everybody loved it. Turns out he wrote an introduction to Animal Farm which was suppressed. It only appeared 30 years later. Someone had found it in his papers. The introduction to Animal Farm was about "Literary Censorship in England" and what it says is that obviously this book is ridiculing the Soviet Union and its totalitarian structure. But he said England is not all that different. We don’t have the KGB on our neck, but the end result comes out pretty much the same. People who have independent ideas or who think the wrong kind of thoughts are cut out.

He talks a little, only two sentences, about the institutional structure. He asks, why does this happen? Well, one, because the press is owned by wealthy people who only want certain things to reach the public. The other thing he says is that when you go through the elite education system, when you go through the proper schools in Oxford, you learn that there are certain things it’s not proper to say and there are certain thoughts that are not proper to have. That is the socialization role of elite institutions and if you don’t adapt to that, you’re usually out. Those two sentences more or less tell the story.

When you critique the media and you say, look, here is what Anthony Lewis or somebody else is writing, they get very angry. They say, quite correctly, "nobody ever tells me what to write. I write anything I like. All this business about pressures and constraints is nonsense because I’m never under any pressure." Which is completely true, but the point is that they wouldn’t be there unless they had already demonstrated that nobody has to tell them what to write because they are going say the right thing. If they had started off at the Metro desk, or something, and had pursued the wrong kind of stories, they never would have made it to the positions where they can now say anything they like. The same is mostly true of university faculty in the more ideological disciplines. They have been through the socialization system.

Okay, you look at the structure of that whole system. What do you expect the news to be like? Well, it’s pretty obvious. Take the New York Times. It’s a corporation and sells a product. The product is audiences. They don’t make money when you buy the newspaper. They are happy to put it on the worldwide web for free. They actually lose money when you buy the newspaper. But the audience is the product. The product is privileged people, just like the people who are writing the newspapers, you know, top-level decision-making people in society. You have to sell a product to a market, and the market is, of course, advertisers (that is, other businesses). Whether it is television or newspapers, or whatever, they are selling audiences. Corporations sell audiences to other corporations. In the case of the elite media, it’s big businesses.

Well, what do you expect to happen? What would you predict about the nature of the media product, given that set of circumstances? What would be the null hypothesis, the kind of conjecture that you’d make assuming nothing further. The obvious assumption is that the product of the media, what appears, what doesn’t appear, the way it is slanted, will reflect the interest of the buyers and sellers, the institutions, and the power systems that are around them. If that wouldn’t happen, it would be kind of a miracle.

Okay, then comes the hard work. You ask, does it work the way you predict? Well, you can judge for yourselves. There’s lots of material on this obvious hypothesis, which has been subjected to the hardest tests anybody can think of, and still stands up remarkably well. You virtually never find anything in the social sciences that so strongly supports any conclusion, which is not a big surprise, because it would be miraculous if it didn’t hold up given the way the forces are operating.

The next thing you discover is that this whole topic is completely taboo. If you go to the Kennedy School of Government or Stanford, or somewhere, and you study journalism and communications or academic political science, and so on, these questions are not likely to appear. That is, the hypothesis that anyone would come across without even knowing anything that is not allowed to be expressed, and the evidence bearing on it cannot be discussed. Well, you predict that too. If you look at the institutional structure, you would say, yeah, sure, that’s got to happen because why should these guys want to be exposed? Why should they allow critical analysis of what they are up to take place? The answer is, there is no reason why they should allow that and, in fact, they don’t. Again, it is not purposeful censorship. It is just that you don’t make it to those positions. That includes the left (what is called the left), as well as the right. Unless you have been adequately socialized and trained so that there are some thoughts you just don’t have, because if you did have them, you wouldn’t be there. So you have a second order of prediction which is that the first order of prediction is not allowed into the discussion.

The last thing to look at is the doctrinal framework in which this proceeds. Do people at high levels in the information system, including the media and advertising and academic political science and so on, do these people have a picture of what ought to happen when they are writing for each other (not when they are making graduation speeches)? When you make a commencement speech, it is pretty words and stuff. But when they are writing for one another, what do people say about it?

There are basically three currents to look at. One is the public relations industry, you know, the main business propaganda industry. So what are the leaders of the PR industry saying? Second place to look is at what are called public intellectuals, big thinkers, people who write the "op eds" and that sort of thing. What do they say? The people who write impressive books about the nature of democracy and that sort of business. The third thing you look at is the academic stream, particularly that part of political science which is concerned with communications and information and that stuff which has been a branch of political science for the last 70 or 80 years.

So, look at those three things and see what they say, and look at the leading figures who have written about this. They all say (I’m partly quoting), the general population is "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders." We have to keep them out of the public arena because they are too stupid and if they get involved they will just make trouble. Their job is to be "spectators," not "participants."

They are allowed to vote every once in a while, pick out one of us smart guys. But then they are supposed to go home and do something else like watch football or whatever it may be. But the "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders" have to be observers not participants. The participants are what are called the "responsible men" and, of course, the writer is always one of them. You never ask the question, why am I a "responsible man" and somebody else is in jail? The answer is pretty obvious. It’s because you are obedient and subordinate to power and that other person may be independent, and so on. But you don’t ask, of course. So there are the smart guys who are supposed to run the show and the rest of them are supposed to be out, and we should not succumb to (I’m quoting from an academic article) "democratic dogmatisms about men being the best judges of their own interest." They are not. They are terrible judges of their own interests so we have do it for them for their own benefit.

Actually, it is very similar to Leninism. We do things for you and we are doing it in the interest of everyone, and so on. I suspect that’s part of the reason why it’s been so easy historically for people to shift up and back from being, sort of enthusiastic Stalinists to being big supporters of U.S. power. People switch very quickly from one position to the other, and my suspicion is that it’s because basically it is the same position. You’re not making much of a switch. You’re just making a different estimate of where power lies. One point you think it’s here, another point you think it’s there. You take the same position.

@PAR SUB = How did all this evolve? It has an interesting history. A lot of it comes out of the first World War, which is a big turning point. It changed the position of the United States in the world considerably. In the 18th century the U.S. was already the richest place in the world. The quality of life, health, and longevity was not achieved by the upper classes in Britain until the early 20th century, let alone anybody else in the world. The U.S. was extraordinarily wealthy, with huge advantages, and, by the end of the 19th century, it had by far the biggest economy in the world. But it was not a big player on the world scene. U.S. power extended to the Caribbean Islands, parts of the Pacific, but not much farther.

During the first World War, the relations changed. And they changed more dramatically during the second World War. After the second World War the U.S. more or less took over the world. But after first World War there was already a change and the U.S. shifted from being a debtor to a creditor nation. It wasn’t huge, like Britain, but it became a substantial actor in the world for the first time. That was one change, but there were other changes.

The first World War was the first time there was highly organized state propaganda. The British had a Ministry of Information, and they really needed it because they had to get the U.S. into the war or else they were in bad trouble. The Ministry of Information was mainly geared to sending propaganda, including huge fabrications about "Hun" atrocities, and so on. They were targeting American intellectuals on the reasonable assumption that these are the people who are most gullible and most likely to believe propaganda. They are also the ones that disseminate it through their own system. So it was mostly geared to American intellectuals and it worked very well. The British Ministry of Information documents (a lot have been released) show their goal was, as they put it, to control the thought of the entire world, a minor goal, but mainly the U.S. They didn’t care much what people thought in India. This Ministry of Information was extremely successful in deluding hot shot American intellectuals into accepting British propaganda fabrications. They were very proud of that. Properly so, it saved their lives. They would have lost the first World War otherwise.

In the U.S., there was a counterpart. Woodrow Wilson was elected in 1916 on an anti-war platform. The U.S. was a very pacifist country. It has always been. People don’t want to go fight foreign wars. The country was very much opposed to the first World War and Wilson was, in fact, elected on an anti-war position. "Peace without victory" was the slogan. But he was intending to go to war. So the question was, how do you get the pacifist population to become raving anti-German lunatics so they want to go kill all the Germans? That requires propaganda. So they set up the first and really only major state propaganda agency in U.S. history. The Committee on Public Information it was called (nice Orwellian title), called also the Creel Commission. The guy who ran it was named Creel. The task of this commission was to propagandize the population into a jingoist hysteria. It worked incredibly well. Within a few months there was a raving war hysteria and the U.S. was able to go to war.

A lot of people were impressed by these achievements. One person impressed, and this had some implications for the future, was Hitler. If you read Mein Kampf, he concludes, with some justification, that Germany lost the first World War because it lost the propaganda battle. They could not begin to compete with British and American propaganda which absolutely overwhelmed them. He pledges that next time around they’ll have their own propaganda system, which they did during the second World War. More important for us, the American business community was also very impressed with the propaganda effort. They had a problem at that time. The country was becoming formally more democratic. A lot more people were able to vote and that sort of thing. The country was becoming wealthier and more people could participate and a lot of new immigrants were coming in, and so on.

So what do you do? It’s going to be harder to run things as a private club. Therefore, obviously, you have to control what people think. There had been public relation specialists but there was never a public relations industry. There was a guy hired to make Rockefeller’s image look prettier and that sort of thing. But this huge public relations industry, which is a U.S. invention and a monstrous industry, came out of the first World War. The leading figures were people in the Creel Commission. In fact, the main one, Edward Bernays, comes right out of the Creel Commission. He has a book that came out right afterwards called Propaganda. The term "propaganda," incidentally, did not have negative connotations in those days. It was during the second World War that the term became taboo because it was connected with Germany, and all those bad things. But in this period, the term propaganda just meant information or something like that. So he wrote a book called Propaganda around 1925, and it starts off by saying he is applying the lessons of the first World War. The propaganda system of the first World War and this commission that he was part of showed, he says, it is possible to "regiment the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments their bodies." These new techniques of regimentation of minds, he said, had to be used by the intelligent minorities in order to make sure that the slobs stay on the right course. We can do it now because we have these new techniques.

This is the main manual of the public relations industry. Bernays is kind of the guru. He was an authentic Roosevelt/Kennedy liberal. He also engineered the public relations effort behind the U.S.-backed coup which overthrew the democratic government of Guatemala.

His major coup, the one that really propelled him into fame in the late 1920s, was getting women to smoke. Women didn’t smoke in those days and he ran huge campaigns for Chesterfield. You know all the techniques—models and movie stars with cigarettes coming out of their mouths and that kind of thing. He got enormous praise for that. So he became a leading figure of the industry, and his book was the real manual.



Another member of the Creel Commission was Walter Lippmann, the most respected figure in American journalism for about half a century (I mean serious American journalism, serious think pieces). He also wrote what are called progressive essays on democracy, regarded as progressive back in the 1920s. He was, again, applying the lessons of the work on propaganda very explicitly. He says there is a new art in democracy called manufacture of consent. That is his phrase. Edward Herman and I borrowed it for our book, but it comes from Lippmann. So, he says, there is this new art in the method of democracy, "manufacture of consent." By manufacturing consent, you can overcome the fact that formally a lot of people have the right to vote. We can make it irrelevant because we can manufacture consent and make sure that their choices and attitudes will be structured in such a way that they will always do what we tell them, even if they have a formal way to participate. So we’ll have a real democracy. It will work properly. That’s applying the lessons of the propaganda agency.

Academic social science and political science comes out of the same thing. The founder of what’s called communications and academic political science is Harold Glasswell. His main achievement was a book, a study of propaganda. He says, very frankly, the things I was quoting before—those things about not succumbing to democratic dogmatism, that comes from academic political science (Lasswell and others). Again, drawing the lessons from the war time experience, political parties drew the same lessons, especially the conservative party in England. Their early documents, just being released, show they also recognized the achievements of the British Ministry of Information. They recognized that the country was getting more democratized and it wouldn’t be a private men’s club. So the conclusion was, as they put it, politics has to become political warfare, applying the mechanisms of propaganda that worked so brilliantly during the first World War towards controlling people’s thoughts.

That’s the doctrinal side and it coincides with the institutional structure. It strengthens the predictions about the way the thing should work. And the predictions are well confirmed. But these conclusions, also, are not allowed to be discussed. This is all now part of mainstream literature but it is only for people on the inside. When you go to college, you don’t read the classics about how to control peoples minds.

Just like you don’t read what James Madison said during the constitutional convention about how the main goal of the new system has to be "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority," and has to be designed so that it achieves that end. This is the founding of the constitutional system, so nobody studies it. You can’t even find it in the academic scholarship unless you really look hard.

That is roughly the picture, as I see it, of the way the system is institutionally, the doctrines that lie behind it, the way it comes out. There is another part directed to the "ignorant meddlesome" outsiders. That is mainly using diversion of one kind or another. From that, I think, you can predict what you would expect to find.
 
27Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Sat, Dec 09, 14:11
Spach were I the moderator I would be asking you to go back and post those posts as links. That is just plain spamming.
 
28Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Sat, Dec 09, 14:17
I guess we've really hit a nerve tho. Some people will do anything to save the 'mainstream media' from the de-legitimization they have so richly earned.
 
29spachalagu
      ID: 51912417
      Sat, Dec 09, 15:31
Baldwin: It looks like you are attempting to de-legitimize the arguments I have posted against the liberal media myth with the argument that the counter-argument is too long. Let me call attention to something you did earlier in this thread, Baldwin...

"I notice you only chose to deal with one of my examples. How come?"

So, I guess I should as you the same thing, Baldwin. You're choosing not to deal with my examples. How come?

 
30nerveclinic
      ID: 441058281
      Sat, Dec 09, 16:09
Spach

While I am a huge Chomsky fan, and I highly recommend to anyone interested in this thread/topic the video "Manufacturing Consent" by Chomsky, I have no idea what your post said because I am not going to take half my saturday reading that long a post.

Couldn't you give us the Readers Digest condensed version? Or post a link to the article?

Got to agree with Baldwin it becomes spam at some point.
 
31nerveclinic
      ID: 441058281
      Sat, Dec 09, 16:12
Baldwin-
Sorry about the emotion hijack 8[
I couldn't resist.
 
32hoops boy
      ID: 51440922
      Sat, Dec 09, 18:08
I meant to address this as well (seeing as how I am one of the primary debaters on this) however it seems I have been "filibustered" by your response spach. Unfortunatly I too am too lazy or unconcerned to read through your entire book just to see if it address the issue I have raised, so if you want to discuss it further, Im fraid youll have to condense it enough to entice me to read the whole thing. Or, to put it in a more chomsky light, if you want to prove to me i am wrong, you have to reword yur arguement so I will be willing to read it. (see how this works? you refute my assumptions, however I force you to chase endlessly a specific ideal on how my assumptions must be refuted. as long as I dont accpet the form in which you have refuted me, you cant win, and if you give up that is declared a victory for me as well. and this isnt even true circular argumentation!)
 
33Baldwin
      ID: 25440222
      Sun, Dec 10, 04:31
You're choosing not to deal with my examples. How come? - Spamalotto

You're on the phone and every time you try and get a word in edgewise the blowhard on the other end goes off on another five minute rant.

This is no longer a discussion Mr. Spamalotto. You have effectively disrupted this thread to the point where a discussion is no longer possible. The wheel on my mouse will wear out before I can navigate between your spam.
 
34biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 14:46
http://slate.msn.com/id/2126899/&#turnkey

Sure to make Baldwin's day. Funny stuff on "Times Select."

 
35leggestand
      Leader
      ID: 451036518
      Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 17:11
Making news

Not sure if this belongs here, or if anyone will even talk about it, but while I was researching for my fantasy nascar team (it's really more fun than you think!) I stumbled upon the above article. I don't know what to think about it, though. It does seem NBC was trying to lead into peoples preconcieved notions about Nascar fans to "make" a story, but is it really isn't that different than many of their "sting" operations about mechanics, customer service reps, etc? I don't know, interesting at least.
 
36Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 17:20
Michelle Malkin is a real newsmaker herself. A real piece of work.

The piece, however, isn't about whether NASCAR fans are bigots, but how ordinary Americans would react to Middle-Eastern looking men in ordinary circumstances. Just like the previous "sting" wasn't about whether football fans were bigots.

NASCAR tries to bill itself as representing a cross-section of America. They should be pleased to have this kind of thing happen, and even more pleased that its fans didn't react badly.
 
37leggestand
      Leader
      ID: 451036518
      Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 17:47
The piece, however, isn't about whether NASCAR fans are bigots, but how ordinary Americans would react to Middle-Eastern looking men in ordinary circumstances.

Possibly, but will it make the news if no racist/bigoted point of views are present? If not, then the piece isn't whether or not NASCAR fans are bigots, but only that NASCAR fans are bigots.
 
38Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 00:45
Well, sure, but it's like any fishing expedition in that way. It's not news if nothing happens.
 
39Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 18:48
More proof positive there is a liberal media monopoly:

In the recent immigration bill Democrats were the ones who pushed for and voted for making illegals felons. Why? Because they then intended to paint Republicans as heartless for applying the law they tried to pass. Republicans had absolutely no interest in turning them into felons.

Weren't the Dems worried the media would point this out? Weren't they worried they would pay a price for trying to make illegals felons? Weren't they worried how that would make them appear to the hundreds of thousands of angry illegals protesting lately?

Of course not. They could count on their media monopoly to ignore the story.

Now we'll see if the blogosphere can rescue the story from the spike.
 
40Tree
      ID: 41344718
      Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 20:51
well, we can go with the randomness of Baldwin's posts about some fantasy world of liberal media bias, or we can watch this clip of Chris Matthews practically felating Tom DeLay while the camera was rolling prior to his interview with the criminal the other day, and see proof positive of conservative media bias...


i particularly like the part where DeLay says "Nothing worse than a woman know-it-all"
 
41Tree
      ID: 233572617
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 20:04
oh yea, Fox newsguy Tony Snow is the new White House Press Secretary...
 
42Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 20:18
This is a guy I tapped as a serious up and comer in a previous thread. I predict he will be the most spectacular turn-the-tables-on-the-press WH press secretary ever.
 
43Tree
      ID: 233572617
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 21:33
in other words, as brilliant a liar and as big a scumbag as the president he represents.
 
44Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 22:04
You are content free as always, Tree.
 
45sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 23:43
While I'm far from naive enough to have seriously hoped otherwise, are you unable even to admit Boldy, that FOX is at least as biased toward your "grand ole party , as you scream about MSM being biased against them? So does it come as any surprise, that anyone on the left or even from the middle, sees this as just so much more pandering by shrubbery and co???? (ie change for change sake vs change for accomplishing REAL change?)
 
46Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 23:46
Yeah, right. A media guy is going to jump in and start bashing the press as the new White House Press Secretary.

Better clean off that screen.

 
47Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 00:17
He has a very very likable demeanor, far more winning than Helen Thomas. He knows when they are abusing their privilege. He can convey that well deserved disapproval as someone with a great deal of credibility in their own profession. When some reporter gets up there and makes a speech instead of asking a question he is going to handle it like no one has ever handled it before.

That said he is a conservative and Bush is a neo-con and Snow well knows it so it may be an interesting game that can be played there. So far Snow's answer to that game is to say, 'You should see what i said about the other guy'. Trust me Snow is an extraordinary individual even when measured against his predecessors.
 
48Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 00:39
Measured against Scott and Ari? That's no real progress.

He's never shown that he's anything but the Administration's lapdog. And now he can cash a paycheck from them openly.
 
49Boxman
      ID: 30323264
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 06:20
There are really only two sources liberals will accept as gospel; France and the New York Times. Since Chirac isn't taking my calls because the next bout of civil unrest is just right around the corner, I went with the NYT.


Bush Hires a Loyal Critic as Spokesman

"But he is also something Mr. Bush has never had: a free-wheeling outsider in a very public position, and one with a history of sharing critical opinions of the president."

""You're not coming in here to drink the Kool-Aid; you're coming here to serve the president," Mr. Snow said. "At this particular juncture, I think what you want is as much honest counsel as you can get."

Kenneth M. Duberstein, who served as chief of staff in the Reagan White House, said he believed that Mr. Snow would keep an outsider perspective that the president could use these days.

"He may bring a new sense of how things stand on the ground outside the grounds at the White House," Mr. Duberstein said, "And that's an important addition.""
 
50Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4923198
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 06:51
Baldwin
When some reporter gets up there and makes a speech instead of asking a question he is going to handle it like no one has ever handled it before.

Perhaps initially. He knows the game and may be someone who can call them on it when they do get preachy. Perhaps even counter their attacks through his knowledge of how they operate. It's because they'll have to respect him as an insider who has shown himself unafraid to criticize the administration despite the pro-administration slant of his former employer.

But any effective respect that the WH press corps has for him goes out the window the moment they can legitimately call out their former colleague for selling out to the administration. Honestly, how long will that take?

In my opionion, PD and B are selling Ari Fleischer short. Ari was an incredibly effective press secretary. In the year or so following 9/11 he might have been the most watched PS in history. The White House Press Corps was never so effectively held at bay in my short politically-cognizant life as they were during the runup to the Iraq war - a time when we desperately needed them to stay on the attack.

I don't believe having a "likable demeanor" is nearly as important an asset as some might think. McClellan has a very likeable demeanor, too. What that job (and the ability to effective perform its duties) comes down to is the ability to lie. And really, it wasn't hard to make McClellan squirm. Ari was a rock. A slithery, shifty, ice-cold rock.

Snow might be all of the nice things that Baldwin said about him. But until he shows us that he can time and again look at his former collegues square in the face and explain away in stoic confidence something that everyone in the room knows he would have rightfully criticized in his former capacity, the jury will remain out on his effectiveness.

Boxman
There are really only two sources liberals will accept as gospel... went with the NYT.

Please explain post 49. Are you saying that since the NYT printed some complimentary quotes about him, liberals will be compelled to like him?
 
51Boxman
      ID: 30323264
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 08:05
It should subside Perm Dude's inquiry about him being "the Administration's lapdog".

"But any effective respect that the WH press corps has for him goes out the window the moment they can legitimately call out their former colleague for selling out to the administration."

So now there are parallels between the White House press corps and rappers from the hood.
 
52Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 08:27
I have no doubt that Snow is looking to get his cred by slamming the "liberals" among the press corps. Same way FOX does it.

Press secretaries aren't know for public separation with the Administration. Indeed, they are the public face of Administration policy. Snow has simply decided that, publicly, he will no longer disagree with the Adminsitration on anything anymore.

Ari Fleischer was an ass who wouldn't have lasted except that 9/11 caused people to naturally get behind the President. He didn't so much put the press corps in line as much as he benefited from the fact that the press, like all Americans, were supportive of the President at that time. Even so, he was a smug bastard who continued to put down the press at his own press conferences as though to try to score political points with the public (later, this misuse of the public trust would evade much of the Administration's actions).
 
53Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 09:02
Boxman
It should subside Perm Dude's inquiry about him being "the Administration's lapdog".

I'm not sure that I know where PD is coming from with that statement (I certainly haven't paid any extra attention to Snow over the years) but he was talking about his history. Your first quote (from the Times writer) responds to that and surmises what I've read over the past two days.

The other quotes deal with how he will approach the job going foward (in the future). And despite Duberstein's nicities (and the personal assurance from Snow, himself) "Administration Lapdog" might as well be the Press Secretary's official title - under any modern President of any political party - its just the nature of the job.

So now there are parallels between the White House press corps and rappers from the hood.

Uh, no.

...................

Perm Dude
I definitely see Fleischer in a different light. I don't think my personal opinion of him is any more favorable than yours (well I probably think he's more cunning than you're willing to give him credit for) but I saw his shiftiness and defiance toward the press as attributes in his role as spin-meister.

Of course it was during his tenure that we had the Jeff Gannon fiasco, which really hurt his credibility, not easy to do to someone so deceptive as a WH Press Sec must be - especially one as shady as Ari.
 
54Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 09:07
Let's establish one important point. Tony Snow has never been a colleague of the WH press corps or any reporting agency.

He is a commentator, an opinionist, not a reporter.

Imagine Republican's reaction if Clinton would have hired Molly Ivins or Maureen Dowd in that position.
 
55Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 09:23
Are you sure about that PD? I certainly haven't paid any more than cursory attention to him but I thought he was a DC correspondant.
 
56Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 09:35
I meant to ask, "Are you sure about that PV?"
 
57Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:02
He's an anchorman of the leading cable national news outlet.
 
58Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:05
Imagine Republican's reaction - PV

Dems have had various versions of Stephenopolous bouncing between the WH staff and MSM for 50 years. Turnabout is fair play. What's good for the goose. Enjoy.
 
59Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:08
Tony Snow has never been a colleague of the WH press corps - PV

And WH reporters can only aspire to the heights Snow has reached in his career.
 
60Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:09
So then Rather would have been qualified? Jennings?

Your ability to do a 180 on the media (among other issues) depending on the party that you plug into the particulars is astounding. It's almost as if you have no political principles at all, except to slam the perceived (and self-defined) "liberals."

I truly doubt you would be able to determine if a particular political act was "good" or "bad" without knowing the party affiliation of the people involved.

No doubt your response will involve some justification based upon something "liberals" did which was the same or worse, as if you should model your behavior based on a group you profess to hate. So let's at least save some Guru bandwidth and wait to respond until you come up with something new.
 
61Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:16
So then Rather would have been qualified? Jennings? - PD

Qualified? Qualified for a Dem WH, yes.
 
62Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:16
He's an anchorman

Choke, chortle and blow milk and cereal out my nose.

The Tony Snow Show
 
63Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:24
And WH reporters can only aspire to the heights Snow has reached in his career.

While it is certainly true that the anchor desk is the pinnicle position for TV news talent, the truth is that field reporters and correspondants are almost always much harder working and far more knowledgable of the stories they cover than anchors. TV anchorpeople (both local and national) are more often glorified and overpaid game show hosts, 90% of whom quickly become complacent, depending more often on their "connection to the audiance" than the hard work they ususlly have to put in for years to achieve the desk job.

I don't know anything about Snow's career. He may have been or still be a terrific news reporter. But understand that posts 57 and 59 do not speak to his value as a journalist, much less in his new position.
 
64Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:30
It's almost as if you have no political principles at all

It's all just a hegelian trap as Anthony Sutton pointed out. The left-right dialectic and false dichotomy is something I truly don't support or run my life or my perspective by.

I just wish they just would quit insulting my intelligence and play on a level playing field at least. The marketplace of ideas is a lot broader than the two corrupt illegitimate parties swapping seats of power. In fact from God's POV they are both preposterous interlopers muttering foolish and empty things and waiting to be swept away by God's Kingdom.

Small wonder you can't pigeonhole me in some worldly category.
 
65Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:34
Post 61: Qualified? Qualified for a Dem WH, yes

Post 64: I just wish they just would quit insulting my intelligence and play on a level playing field at least. The marketplace of ideas is a lot broader than the two corrupt illegitimate parties swapping seats of power.

--------------

Small wonder you can't pigeonhole me in some worldly category.

Yeah small wonder.
 
66Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:34
Run from it all you want. You've clearly ready to slam "liberals" and give a free pass to conservatives and have been for years.

When you stop doing that, then we'll think you are serious about not wanting to be pigeonholed.

Being Godly, in your posts, sounds awfully similar to being a Republican hack.
 
67Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:40
the truth is that field reporters and correspondants are almost always much harder working and far more knowledgable of the stories they cover than anchors. - MITH

But holding your own as a nationally syndicated talkshow host requires you really are fluent and can think on your feet and have a wide-ranging grasp of things that far excedes the skills of a mere teleprompter reader. Don't forget he's both Fox's Sunday news anchor and a talk show host on radio. I am not sure national anchors are ever considered empty shirts and expensive hairdos however. It's quite a ladder they climb to get there with a lot of serious people in the race.
 
68Boxman
      ID: 2630259
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:54
With the ripping Snow is getting I'm surprised the liberals haven't stopped to worry about his feeeeeelings? How does all the snide remarks in this thread make him feeeeeeeel?

Tony Snow was an anchor and a frequent guest commentator on various shows on FOX. He was also a speechwriter in a previous administration. What further qualifications do you ask for?

Perhaps, in the wake of Sandra Day O'Connor, the liberals are seeking Bush to nominate anyone for any position to even out the "loss".

This is just for jealousy and frustration from the media towards the Bush administration. Cheney skirted the press corps during the hunting accident and they've been in a froth. As if W was going to appoint David Gregory as Press Secretary.
 
69Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:58
But holding your own as a nationally syndicated talkshow host requires you really are fluent and can think on your feet and have a wide-ranging grasp of things that far excedes the skills of a mere teleprompter reader.

I can't quite agree. The host controls the topics and the producers choose and sometimes even prompt the guests. Call-ins are almost always screened before they are taken live. As with a TV anchor job, it really depends on the particulars of how the show is produced. You know that the single greatest factor determining whether the desk talent keeps his/her job is ratings. If the ratings are there, prestige will come, regardless of the actual level of journalistic value.

But like I said I really don't know anything about Snow so don't take this as any kind of indictment.

I am not sure national anchors are ever considered empty shirts and expensive hairdos however.

You're telling me that description doesn't fit your opinion of Jennings and Brokaw?
 
70Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 10:59
Liberals know that anchors and talk show hosts on FOX have no feelings to get worried about.

You're on a sinking ship, Boxman. The days of some kind of political payoff by hiding information from the press and making speeches full of disinformation directly to the people are over.

The best you can hope is that when Democrats take over that they have more self-control toward the other party than Republicans did when they took over.
 
71Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 11:02
BTW , post 44. That's 1.
 
72Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 11:04
I could care less who Bush has as his press secretary.
Let's just drop the facade that Snow is an news anchor, a position that used to imply a modicum of objectivity.(please don't bring up Rather, as his on-air delivery never reached the level of blatant partisanship.)

Tony Snow is a conservative commentator and has been for years. I agree that he is fully qualified for the position, especially in this administration where candor and openess are arrogantly seen as impediments rather than the duty of government.
 
73Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 11:25
Boxman
This is just for jealousy and frustration from the media towards the Bush administration.

Huh? Where is the media ripping Snow?

Cheney skirted the press corps during the hunting accident and they've been in a froth.

On the contrary, I'm quite sure that the liberal media was quite thankful of Cheney's avoidance of that issue.
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 11:47
I am not sure national anchors are ever considered empty shirts and expensive hairdos however. - B

You're telling me that description doesn't fit your opinion of Jennings and Brokaw?
MITH

A good question which obviously I anticipated. I think they are either wrong, or deliberately evil. I don't think they are unintelligent. Certainly unwise.
 
75Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Mon, May 01, 2006, 09:22
You have to wonder who approved Steven Colbert to speak(perform) at the White House Correspondents' Association dinner.

Didn't they know his ultra-conservative persona is satire?
 
76Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, May 01, 2006, 09:24
I think so. They also had a Bush lookalike, who would follow a Bush sentence or two with a quip of what Bush was "really thinking."

The dinner is always pretty funny stuff.
 
77biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, May 02, 2006, 10:18
Man. Colbert had me rolling! Tight and pulling no punches.

So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't.

Fantastic.

Greating Scalia was sweet as well.

And...

To actually sit here, at the same table with my hero, George W. Bush, to be this close to the man. I feel like I'm dreaming. Somebody pinch me. You know what? I'm a pretty sound sleeper -- that may not be enough. Somebody shoot me in the face. Is he really not here tonight? Dammit. The one guy who could have helped.

Ouch.

I believe the government that governs best is the government that governs least. And by these standards, we have set up a fabulous government in Iraq.
---

Sir, pay no attention to the people who say the glass is half empty, because 32% means it's 2/3 empty. There's still some liquid in that glass is my point, but I wouldn't drink it. The last third is usually backwash.


Yikes!

Admittedly I haven't watched this before, but does that president usually get slammed that hard?
 
78biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, May 02, 2006, 10:20
He saves a bit for the "liberal" media as well:

But the rest of you, what are you thinking, reporting on NSA wiretapping or secret prisons in eastern Europe? Those things are secret for a very important reason: they're super-depressing. And if that's your goal, well, misery accomplished. Over the last five years you people were so good -- over tax cuts, WMD intelligence, the effect of global warming. We Americans didn't want to know, and you had the courtesy not to try to find out. Those were good times, as far as we knew.

But, listen, let's review the rules. Here's how it works: the president makes decisions. He's the decider. The press secretary announces those decisions, and you people of the press type those decisions down. Make, announce, type. Just put 'em through a spell check and go home. Get to know your family again. Make love to your wife. Write that novel you got kicking around in your head. You know, the one about the intrepid Washington reporter with the courage to stand up to the administration. You know - fiction!
 
79Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 12:59
Link to dinner video

Colbert comes on a little over an hour into it.
 
80biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 13:04
The crowd looked nervous and uncomfortable. Squirming smiles.

The only one who was rolling around belly-laughing like I was was Scalia. My estimatation of him, at least as a human, get's knocked up a notch.
 
81biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 13:08
Direct link to just the Colbert bit.

Full Transcript
 
82Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 13:20
Obviously I disagree with much of Colbert's perspectives, but he is amazingly funny.

Reading that transcript, I can hardly wait to go home to watch it on video. Of course, if people aren't familiar with his mannerisms, I can see how the transcript by itself wouldn't read terribly funny.

I wonder what he's going to do if the Republicans lose power. Yet another reason for PD and BR and others to pull the handle for the Elephant. ;)
 
83Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 13:23
I wonder what he's going to do if the Republicans lose power. Yet another reason for PD and BR and others to pull the handle for the Elephant. ;)

i don't know. i mean, the hypocritical drug addict and the extremely unfunny and pretty stupid blonde have done alright ever since Bush was selected...
 
84Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 13:25
With respect to Tony Snow, he's qualified, and he does have a brain. I tend to agree with B 47.

Not sure what the furor is all about.
 
85Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 13:28
tree 83 -- to clarify, I'm not questioning what someone like John Stewart is going to do. I'm questioning what Colbert is going to do. He satirizes by *being* the ultraconservative hick. If ultraconservative hicks disappear from direct limelight, he's going to have to broaden his persona.

I think he's skilled enough to pull it off -- see some of his swings at the media just in this last clip -- but he'll have to change a bit. I guess he also has the O'Reilly Factor angle.
 
86Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, May 04, 2006, 13:49
Re: Colbert's address at the White House Correspondents Dinner.
Colbert's 15 minutes at that podium were among the most uncomfortable moments ever gathered under the banner of comedy
SUNDAY, APRIL 30 Every generation has its eternal texts. Jesus Christ's sermon on the mount. President Lincoln's second inaugural address. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream..." Fiona Apple's "fuĉk all you fuĉkers" acceptance speech at the 1997 MTV Video Music Awards. To this hallowed company we today add the address given at last night's White House Correspondents Dinner by peerless professional smart-ass/television performance artist Stephen Colbert. Invited to address a room full of the nation's most powerful people, Colbert seized his once-in-a-lifetime opportunity with relentless brilliance and brilliant relentlessness. Reading the transcript, Last Days was repeatedly moved to tears (the laughing kind). Subsequently watching the video, we were shocked at how not funny it was in real time. Standing before his largely silent, deer-in-the-headlights audience, Colbert was required to drive on by force of will, and it's not surprising that the few right-wing publications that deigned to mention the address dubbed it a flop—Colbert's 15 minutes at that podium were among the most uncomfortable moments ever gathered under the banner of comedy, and Colbert's fearless address is something a whole bunch of Americans will never forget. As for the mainstream media's insistence on acting like Colbert's address never happened: Shame on you. For those who want to relive the magic, see www.thankyoustephencolbert.org. (Watch the video for itchy kicks, but keep the transcript for posterity, as those are 2,000 of the most brilliantly hilarious words ever put in a row.)

www.thankyoustephencolbert.org
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 12:56
Rovian math
Jake Tapper - ABC News

I'm not denying that the media as a whole could stand to consider conservative arguments more (just as it could probably cover minorities more)…

But certain things are just facts. When I went to Ohio a week ago to talk to voters there the Republicans we spoke to were dispirited, and many were considering voting for the Democrats. That was borne out yesterday, but at the time I was hammered for liberal bias.

Or you can look at Karl Rove's pre-election spat with National Public Radio's Robert Siegel.

SIEGEL: We're in the home stretch, though, and many would consider you on the optimistic end of realism about -
ROVE: Not that you would be exhibiting a bias ...
SIEGEL: I'm looking at all the same polls that you're looking at every day.
ROVE: No, you're not. No, you're not.
SIEGEL: No, I'm not.
ROVE: No, you're not. You're not. I'm looking at 68 polls a week. You may be looking at four or five public polls a week that talk about attitudes nationally but that do not impact the outcome of -
SIEGEL: I'm looking at main races between - certainly Senate races.
ROVE: Well, like the poll today showing that Corker's ahead in Tennessee, or the poll showing that Allen is pulling away in the Virginia Senate race.
SIEGEL: Leading Webb in Virginia, yeah.
Mr. ROVE: Exactly.
SIEGEL: But you've seen the DeWine race and the Santorum race - I don't want to have you call races.
ROVE: Yeah, I'm looking at all these, Robert, and adding them up, and I add up to a Republican Senate and Republican House. You may end up with a different math, but you're entitled to your math, I'm entitled to THE math.
SIEGEL: Well, I don't know if we're entitled to our different math, but you're certainly -
ROVE: I said THE math. I said you're entitled to yours.
Uh-huh.
What, pray tell, is "THE math"?
Or George Stephanopoulos's assertion after the Foley scandal that Speaker Dennis Hastert would not be leading Republicans after this election -- this just in, Hastert has told fellow GOP lawmakers he will not run for minority leader when Democrats take control of the House.
There are legitimate conservative arguments to make about the media. But not every time someone reports something that doesn't bode well for Republicans is it bias. Sometimes it's called: reality.
 
88Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 12:58
Oops. I meant to post this in the "Liberal Media Bias" thread. Oh well. Its out there now.
 
89Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 17:15
Rove failed THE math. He was looking at 68 polls a day, I guess he wasn't reading them, however.

What else is he looking at and not reading? Reports out of Iraq, perhaps. Reports regarding the chances of John Bolton being confirmed?

There was a portion of that Rove-Siegel interview that didn't make the air:

SIEGEL: So you are going to race Astafa Powell in the 100 meters later this year.
ROVE: That's the first thing you've gotten correct today.
SIEGEL: Most people don't think you have much of a chance.
ROVE: Has anyone, including your mother, failed to point out what an a$$hole you are? You pathetic liberals can't see what is so apparently obvious to every patriotic, god-fearing American, I've got the wheels to blow that pot-smoking Rastafarian off the track. I've trained so much harder than that Jah-worshipping heathen whom only America hating liberals could love. And you wonder why most of Americans want to revoke your broadcasting licenses.
 
90Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 19:38
I've never felt better about the Dems chances in 2008 than now.

Rove: "The Republican philosophy is alive and well and likely to re-emerge in the majority in 2008."

Ha HA!
 
91Wilmer McLean
      ID: 21453121
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 03:56
Who is Charles Rust-Tierney?

CBS, NBC, CNN and the NY Times did not report this at all. Tonight I searched the name in quotes in all the above sites: No results.

Not one article at all among them! Not one mention! These are large news organizations. Why wouldn't they have at least two or three paragraphs?

ABC did: Former ACLU Chapter President Arrested for Child Pornography

I also found this link on the Fox site:

Covering the News the Left Wing Way

Tuesday, February 27, 2007

On Friday, we reported that 51-year-old Charles Rust-Tierney, an attorney and former head of the ACLU in Virginia, was arrested and charged in federal court with possessing child pornography. Agents found videos in his home of little girls being violently raped by adults.

We said we'd report back to you today on which news organizations covered the story and which did not. The two biggest left-wing outfits in the country — The New York Times and NBC News —ignored the story entirely. CBS News, CNN, and most of the big city liberal newspapers also failed to cover the Rust-Tierney arrest. ABCnews.com and the Associated Press did cover. And because it happened in their backyard, The Washington Post ran a brief story in its second section, essentially burying the entire thing.

Now the failure of most media outlets to cover this colossal embarrassment to the ACLU contrasts vividly with the coverage of preacher Ted Haggard, which embarrassed conservative Christians. You remember when Haggard was accused of immortality by a male prostitute, the story was all over the place.

"Talking Points" is not surprised that NBC News and The New York Times, who's motto is "all the news that's fit to print" ignored the child porn bust. These news agencies are no longer objective. They exist to push secular progressive agendas and disparage traditional points of view. We proved that over and over again.


You may not like the above messenger (Bill O'Reilly), but it is very curious why CBS, NBC, CNN and the NY Times don't have an article on their sites.
 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 10:35
Does the Washington Post not count?

ABC News and the Post are hardly right wing--what you demonstrate is not widespread silence but the fact that the media is not always a monolith.
 
93Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 11:39
The Rupert Murdoch/Newscorp O&O NY Post didn't cover it either.

Look up the last time the leader of a state NRA chapter got in some trouble and see how broad the coverege was.
 
94Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 12:16
News that an ACLU member has child porn is not surprising. This is the same group who defended NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association).

This is Liberal justice, there is no crime hidious enough to stir the Liberals. In fact Liberals have no sense of justice, they have bastardized the words Civil Rights.

When the Left posted links about how lifelong attorneys were disgruntled with the Bush administration in the Gonzales thread, I discovered many were Civil Rights lawyers. Grats George, for getting those pariahs out of government.
 
95Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 12:22
Yea--God forbid we'd want people charged with ensuring equal access to the law in government service.

This administration, Jag, believes "civil rights" to involve filing bogus claims of voter fraud, timed to inflict political damage. This is the kind of justice you better pray that Democrats don't emulate.
 
96katietx
      ID: 11430613
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 12:23
Jag..I know quite a few liberals (my son being one) and I can tell you that they would slice this guy into 147 little pieces given the chance.

Broad-brush painting in this case is not only stupid, its quite wrong.
 
97Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 12:25
I guess you missed all the Bush appointed US Attorneys, Republican members of Congress, right wing pundits and millions of Republican voters who felt that way.

A conservative who today defends the Bush administration is akin to defending the guy who mugged his parents.

Jag models his caracature of the ACLU after himself.
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 12:26
Absolutely.

I think it is more relevant that this guy was a Little League coach for many years than an ACLU lawyer.

But, of course, the Right doesn't care about that--everything is about politics to them, and "scoring" points against their perceived enemies consumes a lot of their time.
 
99sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 13:26
The ACLU did not defend NAMBLA. They defended the American Constitution. Apparently, some on the right only think that the Bill of Rights should apply to those who would endorse their own narrowly held views.
 
100Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 14:02
ACLU Press release on NAMBLA. Probably worth a look, Jag.

FYI, ACLU hires Bob Barr
 
101Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 14:24
The ACLU did not defend NAMBLA. They defended the American Constitution. Apparently, some on the right only think that the Bill of Rights should apply to those who would endorse their own narrowly held views.

You can find a loophole in almost any law case. The ACLU goes after high profile cases, with no consideration of guilt or damage they do to America. They are ego driven and are despictable as the pedophiles they defend, maybe worse.

I think it is more relevant that this guy was a Little League coach for many years than an ACLU lawyer.

But, of course, the Right doesn't care about that--everything is about politics to them, and "scoring" points against their perceived enemies consumes a lot of their time.


The Right would want this pervert removed immediately, but the Left's ACLU would be the first to protect him. This is the ACLU you Liberals vehemently defend.

"Everything is about politics to them" that is biggest load of poop I have ever heard. The Democrats are the ones exploiting the war and the Katrina diaster for their own benefit.


Jag..I know quite a few liberals (my son being one) and I can tell you that they would slice this guy into 147 little pieces given the chance.

Broad-brush painting in this case is not only stupid, its quite wrong.


I am not saying all Liberals support these clowns in the ACLU, but they help elect officals they do back these low-lifes.

As far as your son goes, I know I have used this Winston Churchill quote many times, but to paraphrase again "Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and
any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
 
102katietx
      ID: 11430613
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 14:29
I will not waste time commenting, Jag. I have better things to do.
 
103Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 14:59
How about this:

It wasn't Churchill.
 
104Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 15:06
I am familiar with that PD. It is believed Churchill used something similiar in less public speeches and conversations. I love the quote regadless of the original citer.
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 15:18
The Democrats are the ones exploiting the war

ROFL! Bush and Cheney and Rove haven't exploited the war? Think hard about this before answering.

...and the Katrina diaster for their own benefit.

How, exactly? Be specific. Keep in mind exactly what "exploit" means and keep it in the context of what the federal government did and didn't do. Try to avoid the term "heck of a job!"
 
106katietx
      ID: 11430613
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 15:26
Hmm, how about this quote?:

"I refuse to have a battle of the wits with someone who is totally unarmed."
 
107Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 16:31
I have said this before, if Jeb Bush had been Governor of La. and New Orleans had even a semi-competent mayor, there would be no talk about FEMA. It is not the Federal Government resposiblity to know the logistics for every city in America. State and Local officals are responsible for first reponse. Should the White House make the evacuation route for Kansas during a tornado or for California's earthquakes. Brown took it on the chin because of unwarranted attacks by the Liberals, either unaware how diaster first response works or ones, like Pelosi, just trying to gain political points on other people's misery. Pelosi is a disgrace.
 
108Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 17:11
If Jeb Bush had been President, none of the FEMA problems would have occured, We got the wrong Bush.

FEMA is responsible for federal disaster management. To blame their problems (and they had a ton of them) on some mythic belief that FEMA shouldn't have been there in the first place is amazingly inept arguing.

I thought Republicans were all about personal responsibility. I guess that went out the window along with smaller government, strong individual rights, et al.

The Federal governement (including the Army Corps of Engineers, and FEMA) made huge mistakes. Don't try to pawn them off on someone else.

And yes, FEMA is responsible for coordinating disaster preparation. They are supposed to be the experts, most notably because disasters cut across state and local lines.
 
109Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 17:59
We have diasters here in Florida every year and they are handled with the upmost efficiency, the Federal Government would only be a burden here, as far as first responce, because we know the logistics. This is the way all local diasters were handled, until 2 completely incompetent Democrats (Governor and Mayor) screwed up one of the largest National diasters ever and liberals, in their glee to take advantage of a tragedy, now want to change the rules midstream and blame Bush. I worked for FEMA and I know what their role is and it should not be change to first response duties, because the idiots in La and New Orleans decided to elect even bigger idiots as Governor and Mayor.

It seems Liberals are buying into their own propaganda.
 
110sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 18:09
JAG = Brown?

One must admit, that would explain a lot.
 
111Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 18:54
Heh. Maybe.

I see no mention of what FEMA did wrong--only a poorly-phrased screed on the fact that they were called into it in the first place. It would be helpful if you understood the timeline. Take a look before you post on it next.
 
112Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 19:16
FEMA can't have a diaster plan for every city in America, that is ludicrous. It is about LOGISTICS. What is the best evacuation route, what areas are set up for evacuation, transportation for those that don't have the means, hospital and nursing home proceedures, etc...every state and city has these plans, well most do, I guess some Liberal officals are too busy biatching about Republicans or are too clueless on how to run a government. New Orleans is a microcosm of what America would be like if Liberals ran things, lawless, drug infested and a morally corrupt, inept, dysfunctional government.
 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 37421129
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 21:11
FEMA can't have a diaster plan for every city in America

If you can find where I said this I'll give you fifty bucks.

You keep blaming FEMA's mistakes on "Liberals." What a loser.
 
114Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 21:40
FEMA is responsible for federal disaster management. To blame their problems (and they had a ton of them) on some mythic belief that FEMA shouldn't have been there in the first place is amazingly inept arguing.

The Governor of La. pulled rank on everyone and refused help from Florida, blocked the Red Cross and bungled the use of the National Guard. Every move she made was wrong, yet because she is a Democrat, she completely got a free pass from the media, politicians and Liberals on this forum. The Republicans should of been screaming how incompetemt the Democrats were, but they worked at the tasks at hand and showed much more class. The Democrats, mainly Pelosi, played partisan politics during the entire diaster without any useful contribution.
 
115sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 22:22
...without any useful contribution.

Are you referring to the majority of your posts, or your debating technique or your overall position on most any topic? Sorry, but I cant really tell.
 
116Perm Dude
      ID: 41429138
      Sun, May 13, 2007, 09:35
but they worked at the tasks at hand...

ROFL! I've given you plenty of opportunities to tell us, exactly, what those tasks were but every time you decide to blame Democrats instead.

The pattern should be clear: In the wake of a terrible job and asked what they did correctly, the Republicans blame Democrats each time, completely, for the problems to which they contributed.

Gotta hand it to you, Jag: You have the pathology of this Administration down cold.
 
117Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:17
I always like to flip things around to get a fresh perspective.

Now imagine that instead of an environmentalist' SOWL lawsuit preventing the Army Corp of Engineers from building storm surge protection for Lake Ponchatrain, imagine Haliburton had sued to prevent interference with one of their projects and ask yourself what the media would have thot about that surge protection being missing. Would they have ignored the story in that case?
 
118Perm Dude
      ID: 57426149
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 13:43
We don't know. The truth is, this current media has been sometimes good and sometimes awful.
 
119Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 16:18
Complete mystery how the media would have responded?

That's hysterical. 8]

I wonder if Sarge would have noticed or remembered? It's a mystery. Unknowable.
 
120Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 16:18
That must be a known unknown then.
 
121Perm Dude
      ID: 57426149
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 16:25
The list of worthy stories the media ignores is a long one. I have no idea if your speculative idea of Halliburton suing the government would have gotten play or not.
 
122Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 17:30
Does Baldwin really think Mainstream Media has kept close tabs on Haliburton?

Summary of Government Investigations into Haliburton:
Nigeria bribery probe: The U.S. Department of Justice is conducting a criminal investigation into an alleged $180 million bribe paid by Halliburton and three other companies to the government of Nigeria. The alleged bribe was paid in exchange for awarding a contract to the companies to build a $4 billion natural gas plant in Nigeria's southern delta region. The bribes were paid during the time when Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission opened its own formal investigation on June 11, 2004. Click here for a chronology of events in the bribery case.


Nigeria bribery probe: The French government is conducting an investigation of the same Nigeria bribery allegations as the U.S. Justice Department. France is also investigating a former Halliburton executive for his role in the scheme. Investigators said $5 million of the bribes intended for Nigeria was deposited into the Swiss bank account of former KBR chairman, Jack Stanley, who retired from the company on December 31, 2003.


The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating a second bribery case involving Nigeria. Halliburton admitted that its employees paid a $2.4 million bribe to a government official of Nigeria for the purpose of receiving favorable tax treatment.


The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is investigating allegations that the Army Corp of Engineers illegally favored Halliburton for contracts by excluding competitors from bidding on war-related work. In particular, the FBI is investigating the Army's $7 billion firefighting contract for Iraqi oil wells, which was awarded to Halliburton without competition in March of 2003. An Army whistleblower told the FBI that the line between government officials and Halliburton had become so blurred that a perception of conflict of interest existed. The conduct appears to have violated specific regulations and calls into question the independence of the contracting process.


The Pentagon admitted that a $7 billion no-bid contract to extinguish oil fires in Iraq was awarded to Halliburton after a "political appointee" from the Bush administration recommended the company for the job. Government policy forbids politicians or their appointees from taking a role in awarding contracts to private corporations. But Vice President Cheney ignored this basic principle when his political appointees were directly involved in awarding a $7 billion contract to Halliburton to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure.


The U.S. Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) is investigating the legality of Halliburton's business dealings in Iran, an enemy of the United States. Halliburton sells goods and services to Iranian companies through its Cayman Islands subsidiary. The sales appear to have violated the U.S. trade embargo against trading with Iran. The OFAC referred the case to the Department of Justice, which is conducting a criminal investigation.


The Criminal Division of the U.S. Department of Justice issued a subpoena to a former employee of Halliburton's KBR unit to determine whether the company criminally overcharged for gasoline imported into Iraq. KBR, along with its Kuwaiti subcontractor Altanmia Commercial Marketing Co., allegedly overcharged the government by $61 million, but Democrats in Congress say the overcharges were closer to $167 million. KBR charged the government $2.64 per gallon of gasoline while competitors were importing gasoline for less than half that price.


Four former employees of Halliburton filed a class action lawsuit against their former employer, alleging the company engaged in "systemic" accounting fraud from 1998 to 2001. The former employees say Halliburton overbilled for services, overstated the amounts it was owed by customers and understated amounts it owed to vendors. A former employee in the accounting department said supervisors had told her to do "whatever it took" to make profit statements appear more profitable than was actually the case.


The U.S. Department of Defense is investigating Halliburton's billing system, which it calls "inadequate." Pentagon accountants said they are uncertain as to why Halliburton's KBR unit billed the government for $1.8 billion in work that was apparently never undertaken or completed. The $1.8 billion represents 43 percent of Halliburton's expenditures in the Middle East.


Congressional auditors issued a report that criticized Halliburton for a variety of abuses associated with its troop support and military logistics (LOGCAP) contract. It also criticized the Pentagon for “a pattern of contractor management problems,” including ineffective planning, a poor materials requisition system and inadequate supervision of subcontractors.


The Pentagon's Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA) completed a comprehensive review of Halliburton's system for billing the government for meals served to the troops in the Middle East. The DCAA said Halliburton billed the government for 36 percent more meals than was actually served to the troops while an internal KBR report said it had overcharged by 19 percent. In May 2004, the DCAA recommended that the Pentagon refuse to pay Halliburton for the overcharges.


An investigation by the inspector general of the now-disbanded U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) found that Halliburton lost $18.6 million worth of government property in Iraq because of mismanagement. About a third of the government items under Halliburton management in Iraq, including trucks, computers and office furniture have disappeared.


The U.S. Justice Department is investigating Halliburton for possible over billing on government services work done in the Balkans from 1996 through 2000. The charges stem from a General Accounting Office report that found in 1997 that Halliburton billed the Army for questionable expenses for work in the Balkans, including charges of $85.98 per sheet of plywood that cost $14.06. A follow-up report by the GAO in 2000 found inflated costs, including charges for cleaning some offices up to four times a day.


The Army awarded Halliburton a no-bid contract in March 2003 despite a secret Pentagon report which found the company had "significant deficiencies" that could lead to defrauding the government. The Pentagon's report was given to Hearst News Service under the Freedom of Information Act over Halliburton's objections.


The Department of Defense repeatedly warned Halliburton's subsidiary, KBR, that its food and the kitchens where it is prepared are "dirty," NBC News reported. A Pentagon report found that KBR's promises to clean up its food and kitchens "have not been followed through."


The Kuwaiti government has delayed completion of a report on its investigation of the $61 million gasoline overcharge by KBR and its subcontractor, Altanmia. The U.S. embassy in Kuwait publicly stated it will not cooperate with the Kuwaiti government's investigation. Kuwait said its investigation is delayed because the U.S. Army refuses to testify.


The inspector general for the U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) found that the United States failed to adequately control over $9 billion in international aid, including Halliburton's hotel costs in Kuwait. Halliburton charged the government $2.85 million for hotel costs, even though cheaper housing arrangements were available. For example, one CPA official lived at the Kuwaiti Hilton for almost $700 a night. The inspector general also criticized Halliburton for charging $191,000 a year for laundry services.


The auditing arm of Congress issued a report confirming that the Pentagon had violated procurement law by issuing a "task order" to Halliburton to develop plans for extinguishing oil well fires in Iraq. The report, issued by the General Accounting Office (GAO), said the task order violated the law because it was issued under Halliburton's LOGCAP contract, which is not authorized to handle oil fires. LOGCAP is a logistics contract that requires Halliburton to feed the troops, deliver supplies in a war zone and construct military buildings. But there is no authority under LOGCAP to deal with oil well fires. The GAO said Bush administration officials “overstepped the latitude provided by competition laws” when they misused the LOGCAP contract to assign the planning job to Halliburton.


Halliburton settled an investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) which accused the firm of providing "materially misleading" information to investors during the period when Vice President Dick Cheney was the chief executive officer. The SEC said it settled the case after Halliburton agreed to pay a $7.5 million fine and to stop "committing or causing future securities law violations."


The International Advisory and Monitoring Board (IAMB), a watchdog established by the United Nations, is investigating the management of Iraqi finances by the now-disbanded U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA). The IAMB complained that the CPA refuses to release documents on contracts awarded to private firms, including Halliburton. The Bush administration refused numerous IAMB requests for U.S. government reports about the payment of approximately $1.5 billion in Iraqi funds to Halliburton, which is the single largest private recipient of Iraqi oil proceeds.
Ever seen the list of rogue states that Haliburton? If you depend on MSM for info on them, certainly not.
 
123Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 17:32
Poor, poor Haliburton! When will the zeitgeist ever just leave them be?
 
124Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 17:55
MITH

You have to be even clearer than that to de-mystify this for PD.

Tell us plain, would the MSM have ignored the lawsuit that ensured N.O. remain defenseless to category 5 hurricanes if it was from a conservative source and not a liberal source?
 
125Perm Dude
      ID: 57426149
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 18:28
I didn't say I was mystified. I just said we cannot know (and neither can you) given the media's uneven treatment of news.

And your attempt to make this all environmentalists' fault is laughable.
 
126Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 19:01
would the MSM have ignored the lawsuit that ensured N.O. remain defenseless to category 5 hurricanes if it was from a conservative source and not a liberal source?

Given the terribly incomplete mainstream coverege (from both right and left) of Haliburton's long history of dubious activity in post Saddam Iraq and active partnership with rogue states that sponsor terror, including Iran, Lybia and pre 2003 Iraq, no, I cannot say with any certainty that mainstream media - left or right - would have covered a decades old lawsuit filed by Haliburton to prevent measures that might or might not have prevented the Katrina flood. At least not to any greater extent than your SOWL story was covered.
 
127Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 19:32
They stopped the only solution that was rated to protect against the storm surge of a cat 5 hurricane. If that doesn't make them responsible I can't imagine why.

The levees were only rated to protect against a category 3 hurricane. SOWL's lawsuit prevented the only project on the boards that was rated against a category 5. Katrina was a category 4.

Why aren't I perfectly well within my rights to blame SOWL?
 
128Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 20:08
For one reason, because "category 5" doesn't mean the same thing today that it did in the 1970.

For another, The Army Corps of Engineers, themselves, don't know whether the "barrier plan" that was halted by SOWL would have prevented the flood.

As is too often the case you are indifferent to facts (or any lack of reliable ones to cite) once you have picked out a liberal culprit to blame.
 
129Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 20:20
Really?

"'If we had built the barriers, New Orleans would not be flooded,' said Joseph Towers, the retired chief counsel for the Army Corps of Engineers New Orleans district.
___________

J. Bennett Johnston, the retired Democrat who was in the Senate at the time, has no doubts the project would have prevented the flooding caused by Katrina and wants to revive it as part of the current reconstruction now. "It ought to be part of the deal. It would have prevented the huge storm tide that came into Lake Pontchartrain," Johnston told the Times.

You keep researching and grasping at straws. Environmentalists want flooding, file suits to lower levees and halt flood control up and down the Mississippi, and think minnow mating in Lake Panchartrain is more important than saving 31 hundred lives and the city of New Orleans.
 
130Boxman
      ID: 112262717
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 20:52
Environmentalists want flooding, file suits to lower levees and halt flood control up and down the Mississippi, and think minnow mating in Lake Panchartrain is more important than saving 31 hundred lives and the city of New Orleans.

Case in point is post 176 here.
 
131Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 21:20
Yes, Baldwin, really. I've done the research. I suspect more than you.

There are high level Corps Engineers who openly question that assessment.
 
132Perm Dude
      ID: 57426149
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 21:31
So now Baldwin is taking a lawyer's word for it? That's a first...
 
133Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 21:39
That lawyer is doubless the one who argued the Army Corp of Engineers' case for surge protection that was thwarted and would then know more about the merits than just about anyone else.
 
134Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 21:41
MITH

I am sure you won't then hold back from us the specific fruits of your abundant research.
 
135Perm Dude
      ID: 57426149
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 21:54
#133: That's like saying that Alan Dershowitz knows about the merits of OJ's case.
 
136Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 22:16
Boxman, if you think in that statemnt that PV dismisses the death resulting from Katrina or similar catastrophe as acceptable collateral for nature preservation you're even dumber than most of us thinks.

What do you think Baldwin, is that what PV meant?


Regarding the 1960s barrier plan, looking the stuff up was easy, since I'd recently gone through it.From a post Katrina GAO Study:
What GAO Found:

Congress first authorized the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity,
Louisiana Hurricane Protection Project in the Flood Control Act of
1965. The project was to construct a series of control structures,
concrete floodwalls, and levees to provide hurricane protection to
areas around Lake Pontchartrain. The project, when designed, was
expected to take about 13 years to complete and cost about $85 million.
Although federally authorized, it was a joint federal, state, and local
effort.

The original project designs were developed based on the equivalent of
what is now called a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane
that might strike
the coastal Louisiana region once in 200-300 years. As GAO reported in
1976 and 1982, since the beginning of the project, the Corps has
encountered project delays and cost increases due to design changes
caused by technical issues, environmental concerns, legal challenges,
and local opposition to portions of the project. As a result, in 1982,
project costs had grown to $757 million and the expected completion
date had slipped to 2008. None of the changes made to the project,
however, are believed to have had any role in the levee breaches
recently experienced as the alternative design selected was expected to
provide the same level of protection. In fact, Corps officials believe
that flooding would have been worse if the original proposed design had
been built.
When Hurricane Katrina struck, the project, including about
125 miles of levees, was estimated to be from 60-90 percent complete in
different areas with an estimated completion date for the whole project
of 2015. The floodwalls along the drainage canals that were breached
were complete when the hurricane hit.
CRE Report - Levees: Who's in charge?
During Katrina, there were several breaches along levees and fl oodwalls constructed as part of the High-Level Plan. In
the aft ermath of Katrina, there has been debate as to whether the Barrier Plan would have been more eff ective in fending
off the storm surge. Th e position of the Corps of Engineers is that plans would have provided the same level of protection
because they both would have been designed to the same standard – the Standard Project Hurricane – and would
not have materially altered the outcome. As explained in recent Senate testimony by Daniel Hitchings, an offi cial with
the Mississippi Valley Division of the Corps:
I would also like to correct one statement that was made earlier, I believe was related to the previously proposed Barrier Plan, in that it would not have made any difference. That statement I believe is accurate,
but it is accurate not because it was an inadequate plan, and not because the storms would have
gone up the MRGO [Mississippi River – Gulf Outlet – a shipping channel that connects to the Gulf of
Mexico] anyway. It would not have made a diff erence because its authorized level was still the standard
project hurricane.
Source: Testimony of Daniel Hitchings, Director, Task Force HOPE, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, before the U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works, hearing to “Evaluate the Degree to Which the Preliminary Findings
on the Failure of the Levees are Being Incorporated Into the Restoration of Hurricane Protection,” Nov. 17, 2005.
 
137Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 22:24
Civil Engineering Magazine 06/2003
In the Flood Control Act of 1965, passed shortly after Hurricane Betsy pummeled New Orleans, Congress appropriated funds to increase the height of the levees around the northern side of the city, where Lake Pontchartrain ominously abuts what used to be swampland but today is suburbia. With help from a meteorologist from the National Weather Service, Corps engineers determined a wind speed and pressure that they felt closely characterized Hurricane Betsy. The work was done before the development of the Saffir-Simpson scale, which today is used to categorize hurricanes. At the time Corps engineers called their approximation a standard project hurricane (SPH), equivalent to what today would be called a fast-moving category 3 storm.

 
138Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 23:10
Lousiana State University Study
Question 1. Was the GNO HPS properly conceived to accomplish the 1965
Congressional mandate to protect against the “most severe combination of
meteorological conditions reasonably expected?”
Answer 1. No. The initial meteorological and oceanographic analysis based on
the 1959 U.S. Weather Bureau 1-in-100 year Standard Project Hurricane (SPH)
was known to be obsolete by 1972, just as initial construction of parts of the
GNO HPS was getting underway. The primary deficiency of the 1959 SPH was
in the specification of maximum sustained wind speed, which the NWS had
increased in 1972 by 20 percent, from 107 to 129 mph. The steady-state
analytical approach used by the USACE to develop surge estimates was as
sensitive to the effect of wind velocity as later numerical modeling approaches
(i.e. SLOSH or ADCIRC), and should have alerted the USACE to the danger of
underestimating wind speed. This analysis provided a design basis for setting
the minimum heights above mean sea level for levee and floodwall crowns to
resist overtopping by combined SPH waves and surge. We showed that a 20
percent underestimate of maximum winds could lead to a 40 percent
underestimate of the predicted surge elevation using the standard wind tide
equation in use at the time the surge levels were set.
 
139Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 14, 2007, 23:49
A lot to read, but my first take skimming thru this is that little or none of the material you provided deal with the Netherlands style floodgates that I am talking about but rather with levee improvements.
 
140Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 07:42
Now who's grasping at straws? The 1965 "barrier plan" was in the final stages of construction before the SOWL suit in 1977.
Cornell Law School Legal Studies Research Paper Series - Did NEPA Drown New Orleans? The Levees, The Blame Game, and the Hazards of Hindsight
A. Levee Planning and Construction History
The system just described grew out of a reevaluation of the protections that had
failed when Hurricane Betsy struck New Orleans in September 1965. Reacting to the
devastating flooding which resulted from that storm, Congress authorized a massive
hurricane protection improvement effort called the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity
Hurricane Protection Project (LPVHPP) to provide hurricane protection to all of the
Greater New Orleans metropolitan area.16 To implement this statute, the Corps of
Engineers carefully studied two major options—the “high level” option and the “barrier”
option.
1. The “High Level” and “Barrier” Options.
The “high level” option consisted simply of raising all of the existing levees and,
where necessary, constructing new levees to a height that would prevent flooding that
could result from the standard project hurricane (SPH), a hypothetical hurricane that was
used to guide Corps levee design and that loosely represented the most extreme hurricane
that would be expected to hit New Orleans every 200 to 300 years.17 Although experts
later determined that the model hurricane could not possibly occur in the real world,18 it
was roughly equivalent to a fast-moving Category Three storm on the Saffir-Simpson
hurricane scale.19 In practice, the high level plan for protection against the SPH would
have resulted in raising the levees from between 9.3 and 13.5 feet above sea level to
between 16 and 18.5 feet above sea level.20 The assumption was, of course, that the
levees would be properly designed and constructed to withstand all storm surges that did
not exceed those levels.
Under the “barrier” option, the Corps would have constructed levees along the far
eastern edge of Lake Pontchartrain where it flows into Lake Borgne and ultimately the
Gulf of Mexico through two relatively narrow channels at the Rigolets pass and Chef
Menteur pass (see figure 2). The Corps would also have constructed structures at the two
passes containing massive gates that would have allowed water to flow back and forth
between the lakes but that would have been closed when hurricanes approached.21
Finally, the Corps would have built a navigation lock, rock dike, and gated flood control
structure at the point at which the Industrial Canal enters Lake Pontchartrain. The gates
would have been closed during hurricanes to prevent water from entering the Industrial
Canal from Lake Pontchartrain.22 The Corps believed that the levees and the barrier
structure would prevent storm surge preceding hurricanes from crossing from Lake
Bourne into Lake Pontchartrain.23 Consequently, the levees bordering the city along
Lake Pontchartrain would be fortified, but not significantly raised as under the alternative
plan. Still, like the high level option, the barrier option was designed to protect against
the SPH.
24
2. First Choice: The Barrier Option
The high level option had several drawbacks from the perspective of Corps
officials, including the need to obtain rights of way for additional land near the levees to
allow them to be widened and raised. In addition, the high level plan would not have
prevented the flooding of some industrial areas and potentially developable wetlands
located outside the existing downtown polder between the levees and the lake to the
northeast of the city.25 The Corps therefore decided to implement the barrier option.26
To speed the project along, the Orleans Levee Board financed and constructed portions of
the Industrial Canal floodwalls, and this relatively inexpensive aspect of the project was
virtually completed by 1973.27 Work on the barrier structures and levees running from
New Orleans to the those structures, however, was greatly delayed because landowners
opposed to the project demanded high prices for parcels of property that the Corps
needed in order to construct the levees, forcing the Corps to exercise its power of eminent
domain.28
In 1976, a coalition of local fishermen and an environmental group called Save
Our Wetlands sued the Corps of Engineers alleging that the final environmental impact
statement (FEIS) prepared for the project was inadequate.29 On December 30, 1977, a
federal district court agreed, issuing an injunction that prevented the Corps from
conducting any further work on the barrier project until it had prepared an adequate FEIS.
So SOWL apparently wasn't the only roadblock to the plan, either.

I've also come across various accounts that there was strong local opposition to the cost in local taxes of the barrier plan.

It looks like there might have been a lot more politics involved than a simple case of some environmentalists winning a law suit.
 
141sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 09:27
In 1976, a coalition of local fishermen and an environmental group called Save
Our Wetlands sued the Corps of Engineers alleging that the final environmental impact
statement (FEIS) prepared for the project was inadequate.29 On December 30, 1977, a
federal district court agreed, issuing an injunction that prevented the Corps from
conducting any further work on the barrier project until it had prepared an adequate FEIS.


According to the way thats worded, SOWL didnt prevent the corps from moving forward. It simply required the Corps to comply with Fed law and standards, in issuing a proper FEIS. Issue a proper statement in the first place, and the project would have proceeded. Cant blame SOWL for wanting existing law enforced.
 
142Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 09:32
For the record, the issue - and the reason I bothered posting all this stuff in this thread - is the relevence of Baldwin's SOWL angle and whether that 3 decasdes-old issue shoud have been prominantly reported after the Katrina disaster.
 
143Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 10:23
a simple case of some environmentalists winning a law suit

According to MITH's info in #140, SOWL didn't win a lawsuit. The court issued an injunction that prevented the Corps from
conducting any further work on the barrier project until it had prepared an adequate FEIS.


As well, SOWL was joined in the lawsuit by a coalition of local fishermen. The liberal media missed a great headline:
Local Fishermen to Blame for New Orleans Disaster

or;

Inadequate Army Corps of Engineers FEIS Dooms New Orleans
 
144sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 10:30
I rather like your second potential headline...assigns blame to a govt agency. Something I think most Americans could get behind, even though its not entirely accurate. Makes for a nice easy soundbite, and thats what seems to sell on the evening news.
 
145Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 11:26
Thanks to Baldwin's pressing of the issue, we now move from the question of whether the liberal media was complaisant in scantly reporting the SOWL angle to the question of to what extent the right wing outlets disingenuously propagandized the issue, reporting only those factors which allowed them to demonize environmentalism while leaving key details out, subjecting their hapless readers like poor Baldwin to their subjective disinformation campaigns.
 
146Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 17:36
1) Where in all that is there any reason to believe the 'high option' and the seagate would not have save New Orleans?

I stand by the position that those who thwarted that program are responsible for the destruction of New Orleans.

2)SOWL led the opposition and thus the biggest share of the blame.

3)The Netherlands had their priorities better in order than the USA when it came to building seagates that could withstand anything.

Thus the Netherlands has 200% more country above water and we are down one major city.

We also have happy ecoweenies who spent decades rigging the system so every development could be thwarted.
 
147Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 18:03
1) S.P.H.

2) The blame for preventing a program that modern technology had proven insufficient years before the suit was ever brought. These straws are getting awfully thin.

3) Apparently the Netherlands has a better method of researching and funding their large engineering undertakings. Somehow, you find a reason to blame liberalism for this.
 
148Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 19:07
It works in the North Sea and it would have worked in New Orleans.

What is wrong with you?
 
149Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 19:17
re: pt3

It would seem if nearly your whole country is at risk of being drowned it's easier to ignore radicals hiding under the cloak if environmentalism from roadblocking the project you need to protect you.
 
150Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 19:33
S.P.H.

If the European models work its because they were designed to protect against the conditions that test it.

Katrina was notably stronger than S.P.H. Standard Project Hurricane is the equivolent of a category 3 storm, which is all the 1965 plans were designed protect New Orleans from. USACOE engineers testified before Congress that the 1965 plans weren't dependable because Katrina was stronger than SPH when it hit ground and have also said that new studies of the earth beneath the structures was less stanble than assumed in 1965 Further, the barriers were completed before the SOWL suit and despite the fact that the USACE shifted from the SPH standard years before the suit, they stuck with designs that only protected against SPH.

Show a modicrum of effort and read through what I've presented, will you? I have to repeat myself often enough when dealing with Jag. You don't have the excuse of being dumb as a post.


I don't know why I bother. Any answer that doesn't end with environmentalist culpability, no matter how thoroughly supported and compared your own claims, simply won't be acceptable.
 
151Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 20:49
You want to play 'dueling crayons'? I'll humor you just this once...

From your PDF link...
those levees were designed to be of sufficient height to resist overtopping from the SPH, and Katrina apparently did not generate a storm surge exceeding that height.
Happy?

No?

Ok, I'll make you happy.

It looks, at this point in my reading, that altho the original Army Corps plan would have saved NO from Katrina strength storm surge from Lake Ponchartrain, there were other routes for storm surge to take that would not have been stopped by that one project.

They couldn't even get that one passed so I don't know what chance N.O. has of ever getting Netherlands style protection.

BTW by the time Katrina reached landfall it actually was a cat 3.
 
152Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 20:58
Also this from your link...
More to the point, it is certainly possible that the storm surge in Lake Pontchartrain would have been much less powerful had barrier gates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes [the key elements I am talking about - B] been in place and closed before Katrina hit, such that the resulting storm surge would have lacked sufficient force to breach the outfall canal levees even at their weakest points. Viewed somewhat differently, the barrier project may have provided a critical margin of safety for the overall system that would have prevented the flooding of the downtown polder, allowing for the possibility that the outfall canals would have been negligently constructed or maintained.
 
153Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 21:09
As objective as this study appears to be on the surface, the writer actually has the cheek to suggest that the seagate project might have been a wasted effort because they might neglect to close the gate in advance of Katrina making landfall.
A proper hindsight analysis...might also examine
the scenario in which the seagates were not properly closed in anticipation of the
hurricane: Given the numerous instances of official breakdown that occurred as Katrina
and its aftermath actually unfolded, such a possibility is not at all farfetched.
Tell it to the Netherlands. Let's not build protection because we might forget to use it.

What whimsy we can hide behind inaccessable but precise laguage.
 
154Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 21:11
How do I take the rest of this analysis seriously after that choice suggestion?

But I soldier on...
 
155Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 22:24
I provided two studies, an assessment from a Congressional hearing and an account from a civil engineering trade magazine. You found one of 4 sources questionable.

Further, I have never definitely claimed at any point that the barrier plan structures would have failed to prevent the Katrina disaster. My claim, from post 128, was that The Army Corps of Engineers don't know whether the "barrier plan" would have prevented the flood.

In post 129, you disagreed, quoting Demcratic Senator J. Bennett Johnston. As far as your argument was concerned, it is a slam dunk that the barrier plan would have saved New Orleans.

I then pointed out in post 131 that there are high level USACE engineers who question Johnson's assessment. I then provided the GAO findings from a Senate investigation in which USACE engineers testified that they don't know how effective the barrier plan would have been.

You have not countered the bulk of the evidence I have presented.
 
156Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 22:53
I am studying the one that looks most persuasive.

There is no question whatsoever that a Netherlands style system would have saved N.O.

The best arguments from your links that might be made to support your position, I have posted.

I am disturbed that even the best of your links makes the unsupported assertion that the ACoE plan was somehow inferior to the protection the Netherlands enjoys. This is such a remarkable claim that it is puzzling and suspicious that they would not elaborate.
 
157Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 22:55
those levees were designed to be of sufficient height to resist overtopping from the SPH, and Katrina apparently did not generate a storm surge exceeding that height.

Right - the 17th Street and London Avenue levees that were in place. Which were breached, not overtopped. But you're whining about the Lake Ponchatrain barriers. Not the levees. Here's the complete portion of the section you pulled that misrepresented sentence from:
This conclusion, however, does not necessarily lead directly to the ultimate conclusion that the failure to construct the barrier project was not a but-for cause of the flooding of the downtown polder. Even if it is true that a cause of the failure of the outfall canal levees was improper design or improper construction, it is equally [*pg 206] clear that neither of those factors caused the levees to fail in the absence of the storm surge from Lake Pontchartrain. More to the point, it is certainly possible that the storm surge in Lake Pontchartrain would have been much less powerful had barrier gates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes been in place and closed before Katrina hit. The resulting storm surge may then have lacked sufficient force to breach the outfall canal levees even at their weakest points. Viewed somewhat differently, the barrier project may have provided a critical margin of safety for the overall system that would have prevented the flooding of the downtown polder, allowing for the possibility that the outfall canals would have been negligently constructed or maintained.

A proper hindsight analysis to test this hypothesis would have to estimate the force of the storm surge in Lake Pontchartrain under the assumption that the seagates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes had been properly designed and constructed and had been properly closed prior to the time that the surge from Hurricane Katrina moved from the Gulf of Mexico and Lake Borgne into Lake Pontchartrain. The outcome of this analysis is by no means certain. For example, a spokesperson for the New Orleans division of the Corps acknowledged after Hurricane Katrina that he was not sure "how much [the barrier project] would have prevented anything."106 Other reports suggest that

Corps staff believe that flooding would have been worse if the original proposed design had been built because the storm surge would likely have gone over the top of the barrier and floodgates, flooded Lake Pontchartrain, and gone over the original lower levees planned for the lakefront area as part of the barrier plan.107

It is necessary to go beyond these statements, however, given that Army Corps representatives have obvious reasons for discounting the likelihood that the barrier plan would have performed better than the high level plan. A proper analysis of how the barrier plan would have fared during Katrina would require a complex modeling exercise that would in turn require the analyst to [*pg 207] determine the height of the storm surge at the passes and compare it to the design height of the levees and seagates. As noted previously, the project was designed to withstand the SPH, which in New Orleans was roughly equivalent to a fast-moving Category Three Hurricane.108 Although the media initially reported expert conclusions that Katrina was a Category Four Hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson scale when the eye passed to the east of New Orleans,109 subsequent analyses of the water levels along the levees have suggested that the storm may have weakened to Category Three status by the time the storm surge from Lake Pontchartrain hit the city.110 The Saffir-Simpson scale, in any event, is based on wind speed and not predicted storm surge levels, and in some circumstances it may be possible for a Category Two storm to produce a storm surge that exceeds that of a Category Three storm.111 Hence, even estimating the height of the storm surge at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes is fraught with uncertainty.

If the storm surge would have exceeded the height of the levees and seagates between Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne, then the surge would have entered the lake at an attenuated level and probably at a lower velocity. This alone, however, would not have prevented a surge in Lake Pontchartrain because the strong northeasterly winds produced by the hurricane still would have caused water that was already in the lake to surge against the levees protecting New Orleans. Some of that water would have surged up the ungated outfall canals and that surge would have tested the levees. Whether the seagates would have reduced the surge from Lake Pontchartrain sufficiently to prevent the breach of poorly designed or constructed levees is therefore an exceedingly complex question, the answer to which would require expertise in meteorology, hydrology, engineering, mathematical modeling, and probably other disciplines. Certainly one cannot conclude without a great deal of additional analysis that the barrier project as conceived in the early 1970s -- even if perfectly implemented and executed -- [*pg 208] would have prevented the downtown polder from flooding during Hurricane Katrina.
 
159Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 23:07
And one factor that portion of the Cornell study does not include in its analysis (which I've come across several times - not sure if I provided) is that the soil footing under the levees was was found to be suspect. While the levees may have been designed to resist the surge from a cat 3, we don't even know for sure that they would have resisted even much weaker factors in 2005.

Your argument, as it was initially presented in absolute and definitive terms, is crumbled. You simply cannot know. I will grant you that the barrier plan might have provided a better chance of success, but USACE engineers even dispute that.

I suspect that any plan engineered soley with the technology and research employed in 1965 would likely have eventually failed. If not in 2005, then possibly in the next great storm or perhaps the one after that. If the earth in which the structures were founded was not stable, they were getting weaker each time they were stressed and eventually going to give.
 
160Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 23:16
It's all too complicated, it's a mystery, they prolly would have forgotten to use the seagates even if they had had them...

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

If I am in N.O. I want those seagates and I want them yesterday.
 
161Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 23:21
If I am in N.O. I'm moving before the next hurricane season. Whatever the hell they build.
 
162Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 23:24
Well SOWL has you programmed, don't they?

"A little sabotage and they'll all move away and give us back our wetlands".
 
163Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 23:29
Sure B. I'm just fine with how my arguments hold up against yours. I'm sure you'll have Jag in your corner here and I imagine that's plenty enough to satisfy you.
 
164Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 00:03
My satisfaction comes from having logic satisfied. Interesting that you seem to think something else should count.
 
165sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 08:04
Logic B? Logic shows your entire argument as having been met head on, disassembled and piece-by-piece defeated.

Stubborn, bullheaded, pride driven, refusal to see truth, is the only foundation upon which you currently stand.
 
166Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 15:00
I would have to respect your ability to use logic before I cared about your assessment, Sarge.
 
167Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 15:05
Here's logic for you: following all of this, the refusal to acknowledge any uncertainty regarding whether the barrier plan would have prevented the Katrina disaster.

 
168Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 16:18
That's a really low bar you set yourself, MITH. There are precious few predictions about the future that have no uncertainty whatsoever.

I agree with the lawyer for the ACoE and you can just pretend that any uncertainty whatsoever invalidated the value of plan the ACoE proposed.

Unfortunately real lives depend on such foolishness as exhibited by those who nix these ideas over valuing animal life and bogs over human life, tight-fistedness or perfectionist dithering.
 
170Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 16:48
just pretend that any uncertainty whatsoever

Right, becuase there are really so few accounts to support that uncertainty. You stick with your lawyer. After all, he might not have a bone to pick after failing to successfully fight off SOWL's suit (there's an uncertainty for you). I'll stick with the engineers who feel otherwise and studies based on their testimony and other research into the matter.

You think your standard is higher than mine. So be it.
 
171Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 21:09
Yeah, what does the Army Corps of Engineers know anyway?
 
172Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 21:15
My answer depends on whether you're asking about their engineers or their lawyers.
 
173Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 21:39
You think the lawyer drew his case out of thin air?
 
174Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 22:38
When it comes to an issue regarding whether a major civil engineering project would have withstood the stress of Hurricane Katrina, I'll believe engineers who say they can't know for sure over a lawyer with an axe to grind who says he does every time. The latter's job is to research problems and design solutions. The former's is to win legal debates.

Incidentially, USACE engineers do again advocate a barrier plan, but one much stronger than the 1965 design. Yesterday or the day before you questioned the notion that the Netherlands can build a better barrier than the US. I do think this is likely, since the flood protection is a much greater priority for them than it is for us (60 percent of their country is below sea level, compared to just the city of New Orleans and some land hundreds of miles inland in the desert southwest here). They have hundreds of years of experience in dealing with the issue and a political that both has been dedicated to that priority far longer than New Orleans has been developed and exerts much greater control over its country's economy that ours does. But I don't think you asked the right question. What seems ubundantly clear after all of this is that the 1965 plans - both of them - and every plan that they evolved into, were simply not ambitious enough.
 
175Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 23:08
Testimony of Jan R. Hoogland, Director, Rijkswaterstaat (the dutch equivolent of the USACE) before the House Subcommittee on Water Resources and Environment - 10.20.2005:
First of all, I need to point out that all the water situation in the Netherlands is quite different from that in the United States. Almost 60 percent of our country is threatened by water, either by storm surges and/or by floods due to high discharges of rivers. Cities, such as Rotterdam, our main harbor and the world’s second largest port, and Amsterdam, our capital, and our largest international airport are below sea level. We earn 70 percent of our gross national product and attract huge amounts of foreign investment in these flood-prone areas.
On top of that, millions of people live below sea level. Yet they feel safe and secure.
Hundreds of years ago, we established dedicated organizations whose sole purpose was to defend the country against flooding, from sea and rivers. On a local or county level, these are called water boards. And on a national level or federal level, it is my organization, Rijkswaterstaat.
My main message to your Committee, Mr. Chairman, is that we have learned and continue to learn from history, especially the history of flood disasters. Each flood disaster in the Netherlands, from the 13th century onward, has brought us new lessons to be learned for keeping our country habitable, liveable and attractive to citizens and business.
After the floods of 1953, in which nearly 2,000 people died, we designed our Deltaplan, primarily meant for the coastal areas. In this Deltaplan, we developed for the first time a comprehensive system of standards for designing dikes and barriers for the whole country. These government-endorsed standards assure the quality of our water defense system.


Now, if you were to ask me, what are the most important elements of our protection policy, I would say the following: know-how and organizational structure; standards and legislation; priorities and budget; and prevention and zoning. As to know-how, it clearly
include technology, morphological and ecological knowledge, statistics and predictions. New developments, such as sea level risk and climate change, are important components.
To ensure that the development of this knowledge stays on the highest level, we have a department such as mine working at the national level as a respected partner in the international exchange
of knowledge. My department, Rijkswaterstaat, by the way, has been around since 1798. Since yesterday, I found out that your Army Corps is just three years older.
[Laughter.]
Mr. HOOGLAND. On a local level, we have for 800 years one issue organizations called water boards. Their only task is water management, which includes flood protection. Water boards are public entities with their own election and tax system. Now I come to standards and legislation. Our standards are accepted risk levels related to the design criteria of our dikes. Those standards are laid down in the flood defense act. For the economically most important and densely populated part of the country, we design our dikes and dunes to be sturdy enough to withstand a storm situation with a probability of 1 to 10,000 a year. That means that a Dutchman, if he should live 100 years, has a chance of 1 percent to witness such an event. For our parliament, these odds became the acceptable standards. For the less important coastal areas, we calculate the probability of 1 to 4,000, and along the main rivers, 1 to 1,250.
Very essential is that every five years, the entire water defense system is assessed for compliance by local water boards. A summary of these assessments is submitted to the national parliament. In order to be able to make these assessments, it is essential to know what the hydraulic specifications belonging to the politically accepted standards are. In my department, Rijkswaterstaat publishes each five years, to these hydraulic specifications, in which we implement the latest knowledge of statistics, failure mechanisms of dikes, sea level rise and climate change.
A few words about priorities and budget. Since 1953, financing of renovating the dikes has been a national priority. All funds for rebuilding are allocated by the central government. Maintenance, financially and operationally, is totally controlled by the water boards, who in turn, tax the local population. Since the water boards have no other responsibility than water, other priorities never go to the detriment of the water defense system.
Finally, I get to the matter of prevention and zoning. The notion of zoning is fairly new in our approach. We need to answer questions such as whether we reserve space for urban development or whether we dedicate space exclusively for water. It is a tough issue, but an issue we cannot ignore.
Last but not least, it is important to realize that total safety does not exist, and therefore, it is essential to be prepared, for instance, by having evacuation plans. After all, members of the Committee, disasters do happen.
 
176Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 21:20
A MSM blindspot that could IMO lead to or prevent world war depending on how it is addressed.
 
177Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 22:39
#176
Interesting link, but I'm at a loss as to why it's in the liberal bias thread. If anything, it supports that the MSM really has no general liberal bias.
The author speaks of the blogosphere, but anyone who has ever visited conservative blogs like FreeRepublic or Townhall knows that mentioning that "moderate" Muslims even exist will garner t Islamophobic comments and desires to turn Mecca and Tehran into parking lots. The prevailing thought on conservative web sites is that Muslims are terrorists and they all want to kill us.
Perhaps a review of what was said about Keith Ellison wanting to take his congressional oath on the Koran by Dennis Prager, among others, would be a good lesson not on MSM silence, but on MSM ignorance.

Of course, Albanian Sunnis aren't the only Muslims who embrace America. Iraqi Kurds, mostly Sunni, have been America supporters for decades.

 
178Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 22:43
I am against any obstacle to clear vision.
 
179Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 00:39
In the FOX News thread, Baldwin writes the following:

BTW you need to actually read your own links. Just the fact that you can find SOWL's rebuttal on their site doesn't mean squat. Just having presented a rebuttal doesn't mean squat. You still have to consider the source and consider the actual strength of the argument.

Forget for a moment the odds that a university is going to objectively report that environmentalists and the legal structure they put in place doomed N.O...


Why would you feign any shame at this point?

National Affairs and Legislation Committee Sept 2005:
The senior project manager for the Corps, Al Naomi, now says, “ The levees and control structures in the post- 1965 plan were not big enough to control a surge and protect the city. But the corps is preparing to resurrect the project with bigger levees and a more environmentally friendly control structure. We can design a barrier to both protect human life and protect the environment.

I think this is a good time to review:

On your side we have the account of a bitter trial lawyer with a bone to pick and exactly one member of Congress.

On my side we have:
1. The Government Accountability Office found that that none of the changes made to the USACE initial 1965 plan led to the disaster. They note that at least some Corps officials believe that the flooding may have actually been worse if the original barrier plan had been in place.

2. The Center for Regulatory Effectiveness found stated that "the position of the Corps of Engineers is that plans would have provided the same level of protection because they both would have been designed to the same standard – the Standard Project Hurricane – and would not have materially altered the outcome." They cited testimony from Daniel Hitchings, Regional Business Director for the Mississippi Valley Division, U. S. Army Corps of Engineers and Director of Task Force Hope.

3. A university study that found that, "Certainly one cannot conclude without a great deal of additional analysis that the barrier project as conceived in the early 1970s -- even if perfectly implemented and executed -- [*pg 208] would have prevented the downtown polder from flooding during Hurricane Katrina".

4. The contention of The Corps senior project manager that, "The levees and control structures in the post- 1965 plan were not big enough to control a surge and protect the city."

5. Numerous confirmations from multiple sources that the SPH that the barrier was designed to protect New Orleans from was actually only the equivolent of a category 3 storm.
And since I know that you will respond to #5 with a claim that Katrina was only a cat 3, I'll note here that I've read repeated accounts that Katrina was actually much more than a category 3 storm. While wind speeds may have only reached that level, various other factors were much more severe than a standard category 3. I read one meteorologist say that Katrina was actually more like 3 category 3 storms. If you insist on seeiong that evidence and I feel like further emasculating you, perhpas I'll get around to looking that up. Now I'm going to bed.
 
180Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 06:12
5. Numerous confirmations from multiple sources that the SPH that the barrier was designed to protect New Orleans from was actually only the equivolent of a category 3 storm.


1) Katrina was a cat 3 when it made landfall. Unless you can produce evidence that it's storm surge was greater than that of a cat 3 you have no case on that point. Your own link says otherwise.

2) No matter what category it was, your own university study says...
those levees were designed to be of sufficient height to resist overtopping from the SPH, and Katrina apparently did not generate a storm surge exceeding that height.
So the judgement of the study you are leaning on is that the design of the defenses that were actually in place should have been sufficient for what they faced in Katrina...[as far as I can tell the design was fine, but in some places the pilings for the levees were driven into soil of very unfortunate characteristics]

Further your own study says...
it is certainly possible that the storm surge in Lake Pontchartrain would have been much less powerful had barrier gates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes been in place and closed before Katrina hit. The resulting storm surge may then have lacked sufficient force to breach the outfall canal levees even at their weakest points. Viewed somewhat differently, the barrier project may have provided a critical margin of safety for the overall system that would have prevented the flooding of the downtown polder, allowing for the possibility that the outfall canals would have been negligently constructed or maintained.
And you think this backs your argument?

This is actually very similar to the case of the college professor Madman once asked us to interpret. The prof said in impenetrable prose that he was wrong but that since you couldn't understand what he had said he was going to continue to hold that wrong position.

The report you linked to, here essentially concedes my point, which it then drowns out with page after page of innaccessable accademic speak that no lurker here was likely to have waded thru.

A concession which you conveniently avoid or are trying to claim can be ignored.

If the seagates would have been in place then the defenses which by their own admission were adequate designs for Katrina's surge would have had even more margin for safety.

They don't want to conclude with that but that is the point they made.

 
182Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 09:09
Katrina was a cat 3 when it made landfall. Unless you can produce evidence that it's storm surge was greater than that of a cat 3 you have no case on that point. Your own link says otherwise.

When Katrina made landfall she was a slow moving storm at the high end of the cat 3 scale. That is much more dangerous than a typical cat 3, especially a fast moving one.

Nola.com
"They really need to re-analyze how to rehabilitate the levees using a current risk-based analysis. That can be easily done, that's what needs to be done. They really have to take all the calculations and weave that into a new design," said Lee Butler, an engineering consultant and former corps computer analyst who found possible deficiencies in the corps' levee designs in a study he did for The Times-Picayune.

For that to happen, though, Congress would have to get involved. Corps project manager Al Naomi said that the current congressional mandate doesn't allow for such variations.

The corps based its levee design on a fictional, meteorologically inaccurate "standard project hurricane" devised in the 1960s, based on characteristics of past storms that had flooded the city. In the 1990s it used computer models to analyze the system. They showed that the levees could protect the city against a fast-moving Category 3 or weaker storm, but could fail if struck by a slow-moving Category 3 storm or something stronger.

But that is a crude way to look at the problem, experts say. The strength categories of the Saffir-Simpson scale used by meteorologists are based on wind speed – not the storm surge flooding that poses the most serious threat to the New Orleans region. Hurricanes come in all sizes and move at different speeds. Some Category 1 or 2 storms can cause more severe flooding than Category 3 storms, for example.
As I've said, I've read expert accounts that (because of it's immense size and slow movement, iirc) Katrina was more like 2 or 3 category 3 hurricanes. If you insist that I dig this up I'll try to find it. Shouldn't be too hard.

No matter what category it was, your own university study says...
those levees were designed to be of sufficient height to resist overtopping from the SPH, and Katrina apparently did not generate a storm surge exceeding that height.


As I showed in post 157, the levees were built to that height after the barrier plan was scrapped. Had the barrier plan been in place the levees wouldn't have been built as high as they were. One of the reasons USACE believes a barrier plan has a better chance to work today is that the levees we have in place are much higher than what the 1965 barrier plan called for.

Further your own study says...
it is certainly possible that the storm surge in Lake Pontchartrain would have been much less powerful had barrier gates at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes been in place and closed before Katrina hit....

And you think this backs your argument?


It doesn't contradict anything I've said all along. And it certainly doesn't support yours. Remember, you're the fundamentalist on this issue, not me. My claim is that we don't know whether the barrier would have prevented the disaster. An excerpt from a study that acknowledges the possibility that the barrier might have worked doesn't challenge my contention of uncertainty. If anything, it challenges your contention, which is that the barrier would have worked.

They don't want to conclude with that but that is the point they made.

As I've said previously, I'm just fine with how everything I've presented stands up to your arguments. Research and expert assessments against a couple of laymen and your own misunderstanding of what you've read and the bizarre claim that words like "possibly" and "might have" describe conclusiveness and support your opinion of absolute certainty over mine claims of uncertainty.
 
183Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 22:41
No liberal agenda here of course.

 
184Perm Dude
      ID: 114162713
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 23:01
I would think you'd at least pause to wonder about stories that start out, essentially, with the speculative "if the races were reversed the media would be all over this!!!"

Particularly one which uses the Duke "rape" case as some sort of counter-example.

So, no. No proof of anything, except another example of your using speculation which dovetails with your biases as "proof."
 
185Tree
      ID: 41449287
      Mon, May 28, 2007, 09:20
from Baldwin's link...

If five whites carjacked a black couple, tortured them for hours, then dumped the bodies, the national news media would descend upon the benighted city in which the dastardly crime occurred and, having reported the unspeakable deeds, subject the rest of us to rants on racism and harangues on hate.

maybe now, finally, 50 years later, that'll happen.

but ask people like Emmett Till, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner what happens when a group of whites descend upon you and commit "unspeakable deeds".

Whites have committed "unreported" crimes on blacks for generations - and in many cases, justice wasn't served until the whites were VERY old men - if at all.

black on white hate crime is a basically new phenomonen, and according to this article, make up just 20 percent of all hate crimes. while that's a large - and growing number - it pales in comparison to hate crimes committed by whites.

the same article also notes that while the national media was lax in reporting the Long Beach halloween maze attacks, it also mentions that NPR - probably near the top of your "liberal media" hit list - was the first major national news outlet to mention the story. hmm, where was Fox News?? are they suddenly liberal?

oh - and i'd wager that single most reported legal-related news story of ALL TIME featured a black man accused of murdered two white people, so i'm not sure your "proof" of liberal media bias has any merit whatsoever. i'm sure you remember OJ Simpson?
 
186Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 28, 2007, 10:40
Its definitely true black-on-white violent crime, while far more frequent, receives far less national media coverege than white-on-black.

I'm curious about exactly what Baldwin thinks the agenda is.
 
187Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 15:34
More typical liberal bias in the MSM...

Zero chance this gets the permanent derision the MSM reserved for Dan Quayle.
 
188sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 15:46
you mean like the permanent derision you display for all things not Republican?
 
189Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:00
black on white hate crime is a basically new phenomonen, and according to this article, make up just 20 percent of all hate crimes. while that's a large - and growing number - it pales in comparison to hate crimes committed by whites. - Tree

1) The kind of people who believe 'a hate crime' is actually something that can be known and quantified...

[I contend liberals aren't mindreaders]...

...also believe in their heart of hearts that Blacks aren't even capable of racism so I am not going to be trusting their attempts at mindreading criminals for intent.

2) But if I was going to take that figure Tree gave as anything approaching accurate...I would point him to the the math and ask him how he was so sure 13% percent of the population committing 20% of a certain crime paled in comparison to any other group.
 
190Perm Dude
      ID: 2054118
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:01
It isn't clear why this image should be derided. Care to clarify for the rest of us who don't automatically throw up the devil sign with every image of Sen Clinton?
 
191Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:08
Same circumstances...both senators were relying on the spelling of people around them, both ended up in an embarrassing situation, but only one is slandered for the rest of their life by the MSM over it.
 
192sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:11
rest of their lives?????? Just a slight exaggeration....no?
 
193Perm Dude
      ID: 2054118
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:15
Ah, I see. Was looking at the sign in front of the podium.

Your characterization, however, is a bit off. First: Quayle was the Vice President, not a Senator at the time. But more important is that Quayle wasn't "relying on tbe spelling of people around" him. He actually "corrected" the spelling himself.
 
194Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:17
The kind of people who believe 'a hate crime' is actually something that can be known and quantified... also believe in their heart of hearts that Blacks aren't even capable of racism so I am not going to be trusting their attempts at mindreading criminals for intent.

Easily the stupidest thing I've read today.

Same circumstances...both senators were relying on the spelling of people around them

Who did Quayle rely on? The misspelling came from his own mouth!

I sure wish you'd answer my question in post 187.
 
195biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:37
The cue card he was holding had it spelled wrong. But come on. Potatoe?
 
196Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 16:50
Well I agree that arguing blacks can't be racist is blithering idiocy and yet it is a frequently defended position by liberals.

Quayle was just trusting the flash cards provided by his aide. Just like Hillary isn't going to challenge the people who made that sign and who presumably had a lot better opportunity to make sure they were correct than she could on the fly.
What are we supposed to do?’’ I asked Keith Nahigian, the advance man who had prepared this little photo op,’’ Quayle wrote.

"Just sit there and read these words off some flash cards, and the kids will go up and spell them at the blackboard,’’ the handler told the VP.

"Has anyone checked the card?’’ another aide asked.

"Oh, yeah,’’ responded Nahigian. "We looked at them and they’re just very simple words. No big deal.’’

Enter William Figueroa, 12, a sixth-grader from the Mott School in the South Ward who had been bused to Munoz Rivera to take part in the vice presidential event.

Figueroa knew how to spell potato, and he wrote it in a legible script on the blackboard when Quayle announced his word for the spelling bee.

Quayle looked at the blackboard, then at his contest card, and gently and quietly told the boy, "You’re close, but you left a little something off. The e on the end.

"So William, against his better judgment and trying to be polite, added an e’’ and won applause for it from those assembled in the classroom, including Mayor Doug Palmer, Quayle wrote.

The misspelling wasn’t mentioned until the end of the press conference afterward, when one reporter asked Quayle, "How do you spell potato?’’

"I gave him a puzzled look, and then the press started laughing. It wasn’t until that moment that I realized anything was wrong,’’ Quayle wrote.

"None of the staff people had told me. Caught off guard, I just rattled on a little to fill the air — something about how I wasn’t going to get into spelling matters — but I knew something was really amiss.’’

Indeed. At about the time of the gaffe, in fact, The Trentonian’s night reporter was arriving at the office and hearing the editor’s plea for a story suitable for page 1.

"What are you talking about? You’ve got the vice president in town today,’’ the reporter said.

"You know Quayle’s not going to say anything newsworthy,’’ the editor responded.

"I’m not talking about his political message. I’m saying watch for Quayle to foul up something,’’ the reporter said.

Soon after, the reporter who had covered Quayle’s Trenton tour showed up in the newsroom and was ask how the event had gone.

He said Quayle delivered the usual political pap, prompting the night reporter to holler out, "Yeah, but what did he foul up?"

"Well,’’ the reporter responded, "Quayle can’t spell potato.’’

The editor had his front-page story, complete with the only media interview with Figueroa, who said the experience made him believe all the talk about the vice president being "an idiot.’’

Soon after the paper hit the streets, the scene in the Trenton classroom was playing on national television, just as Quayle had warned his wife it would be when he got home from Trenton the night before.

Comics loved it, and a staffer from the David Letterman Show called The Trentonian the morning after seeking help locating Figueroa so he could be invited on the show.

The next day, after his father sent him for a haircut and warned him to speak a bit more diplomatically about the vice president of the United State, Figueroa made his national television debut.

The Trenton kid wowed the Letterman audience. He told of the spelling bee, saying, "I knew he was wrong, but since he’s the vice president I went back to the blackboard and put an e on the end and went back to my seat.

"Afterward, I went to the dictionary, and there was potato like I spelled it.’’ Figueroa wouldn’t call Quayle an "idiot’’ again, in deference to his father, William Collazo, and Palmer, who had called the boy’s mother and warned that funds for Weed and Seed could be cut off if the VP got mad enough.

"I know he’s not an idiot,’’ he told the goading Letterman, "but he needs to study more. Do you have to go to college to be vice president?’’

From then on, the potato incident would become a campaign weapon for the Democrats backing Clinton and Gore. Figueroa was flown in to deliver the pledge of allegiance at the Democratic National Convention that summer.

Image-conscious Quayle laughed it off on the outside. But as his book indicates, he was fuming mad about the gaffe and blamed his aides for letting it happen and the press for exploiting it.

He referred to Gore saying in a speech that a leopard had changed it "stripes,’’ and said if he had said that, "there would have been a week of Quayle jokes on the late-night shows and three dozen editorial cartoons set inside zoos.’’

The media’s "obsession with my small verbal blunders went beyond the bounds of fairness,’’ Quayle wrote in his book.
 
197Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 17:10
Well I agree that arguing blacks can't be racist is blithering idiocy and yet it is a frequently defended position by liberals.

As usual, you're applying an extremist (and really, rare) perspective to a majority of a very large group of people.

But whats really absurd (and comical) is that in the same sentence in which you contend that liberals cannot read minds, you want us to believe that YOU can - quick to tell us "liberals" what we truly believe in our hearts.

Just like Hillary isn't going to challenge the people who made that sign and who presumably had a lot better opportunity to make sure they were correct than she could on the fly.

Please. Aside from the fact that the sign was behind Hillary and she was never put in a position to cpublicly confirm the spelling of that word, you (or I, anyway) might miss "tommorrow", especially at a glance. In fact I bet a search of this forum would turn up that misspelling numerous times here. "Potatoe" on the other hand, I certainly wouldn't miss. In fact I bet every hit in a search for potatoe in this forum would be a Quayle reference.

But more importantly it was at a school where Quayle was acting as guest-host to a children's classroom spelling bee. So he set himself up for the joke that he was not as smart as a 6th grader. Further, the incident comicly captured him in a way that the public very much already perceived him.

The Hillary incident is hardly similar at all.

Baldwin you are probably the worst person in this forum to trust on what is even or fair media treatment. I have no problem agreeing with you that MSM tends to favor left more than it favors right but its as if you actually try to self-victimize the scales back in your favor all by yourself. Take a step back and a deep breath.
 
198Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 17:28
Well I agree that arguing blacks can't be racist is blithering idiocy and yet it is a frequently defended position by liberals.

Baldwin - what "liberals" here would defend that position? while it's a very small sample size, i'd bet the large portion of "liberals" who post here would not defend it.

count me as one who would not defend that position - anyone can be racist, regardless of skin color or what have you.

as for the Clinton-Quayle thing: it is laughable to even remotely compare those things.

between these latest two "issues", you are getting more and more desperate in your attempts to "prove" a liberal media bias, that it is getting beyond pathetic.

and yes, this is the part where you retort with some sort of insult about me being dimwitted or whatever.

 
199Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 05:29
but its as if you actually try to self-victimize the scales back in your favor all by yourself. - MITH

I have no idea what that phrase means.

 
200Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 06:25
The Hillary incident is hardly similar at all.

Well not in that 1)The media wasn't out to catch her up and 2)She wasn't asked to challenge the misspelling in print. Other than that the situation is the same. Those around them have had ample time to get the spelling correct, the misspellings are there for all the world to see making them look foolish or surounded by fools, and both have the opportunity to point out the misspelling.
 
201Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 06:35
what "liberals" here would defend that position? while it's a very small sample size, i'd bet the large portion of "liberals" who post here would not defend it.

I'm willing to bet that the average liberal posting here would be inclined to represent calls for strict enforcement of our borders as racist but never hold Mexico to the same standard when enforcing their own as they do.
 
202Perm Dude
      ID: 2854727
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 08:48
Mexico, of course, has a corrupt government. Seems a waste of breath to me, particularly since they are in fact a different country.
 
203Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 09:42
The media wasn't out to catch her up

The right side of the MSM is happy to throw darts at her.

Other than that the situation is the same.

I've already listed the reasons for why they are different. You can meet my points head on or not. Arguing with you has become very boring.


I'm willing to bet that the average liberal posting here would be inclined to represent calls for strict enforcement of our borders as racist

I don't believe that's as a typical sentiment at all - and the topic has been discusssed at considerable length off and on for years here. Perhaps it depends on what you mean by "strict".

Anyway, I fail to see how this argurmnt, even if true to any extent, supports your position that typical "liberals" (or everyone who supports any form of hate crime legislation, anyway) believe in their hearts that black people aren't capable of racism. The notion is absurd.
 
204Tree
      ID: 4055827
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 09:54
I'm willing to bet that the average liberal posting here would be inclined to represent calls for strict enforcement of our borders as racist but never hold Mexico to the same standard when enforcing their own as they do.

different topic, different thread.

meet the challenge head on Baldwin, and poll the "liberals" here about the issue you initially presented, instead of doing your normal end around play...

as far as border issues go, and this is for another thread, it is astonishly inconsistent. you can start with the wet foot/dry foot policy for Cubans only (Haitians, Africans, Mexicans, anyone else be damned), and continue on with border agents letting potentially dangerous white people through the border because they didn't look "sick"...
 
205Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 20:42
The right side of the MSM is happy to throw darts at her.

That's rich. You are back to calling FOX MSM?

If they were then candidates wouldn't dare boycott any debate with them included.

The only reason I brought up the 'blacks can't be racists' issue is because you couldn't accept a statistic like what percent of 'hate crimes are white on black' if there is a tendency to dismiss black on white crimes as possible 'hate crimes'. I didn't bring up that statistic I was answering it.

 
206Perm Dude
      ID: 2854727
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 21:40
He's laughing now, but wait until he catches up with Baldwin....

 
207Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 23:03
That's rich. You are back to calling FOX MSM?


For years I've consistantly and accurately pointed out to you that FOX News Channel is not only mainstream neas media, but is in fact the most mainstream of all the cable TV news outlets. Your abuse of that term notwithstanding.

you couldn't accept a statistic like what percent of 'hate crimes are white on black' a tendency to dismiss black on white crimes as possible 'hate crimes'.

Who can't accept it? Who dismisses them as hate crimes? I suspect this is yet another case where you have sloppily allowed your limited exposure to a handful of anecdotal examples drive your opinion of a much greater topic. Show me I'm wrong.
 
208Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 00:26
Not only does the zeitgeist not reflect what you are saying, but on nearly any forum a majority of posters will not even be willing to admit that Fox News is even real News.

When the zeitgeist finally catches up to reality I'll be less excersized by this subject.
______

you couldn't accept

Who can't accept it?

...a generic person...me just as an example

Who dismisses them as hate crimes?

Huh? How could you dismiss something as a hate crime? I am dismissing the concept of hate crimes as a legitimate term first, and the idea that anyone is out there accurately keeping track of such an intangible as a followup.

The liberal media is obviously, self-evidently using any example of WoB 'hate crimes' to serve their own liberal purposes.

It isn't quite so useful to them to point out BoW 'hate crimes', especially when they have spent decades driving blacks over the brink of rage and madness as they thrash this subject for all it is worth to them. That might make them responsible for 'hate crimes' after all.
 
209Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 11:29
When the zeitgeist finally catches up to reality I'll be less excersized by this subject.

The right wing thinktank propaganda network notwithstanding, I'm sure. (nothing to see there)

I asked the question as you intended the phrase. Who dismisses BoW crimes as possible hate crimes?

they have spent decades driving blacks over the brink of rage and madness

Ah! finally an answer to my question posed 22 posts back and 7 days ago. And just as demented as I assumed it would be.
 
210Doug
      ID: 441251914
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 14:22
I'm pretty sure the guy in charge of graphics at Hilary's event was Tom Morrow.

Shameless attempt at self-promotion. Shameless.
 
211Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 16:18
Nice one! 8]
 
212Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 20:23
Not that this is particularly surprising

MSNBC.com identified 144 journalists who made political contributions from 2004 through the start of the 2008 campaign, according to the public records of the Federal Election Commission. Most of the newsroom checkbooks leaned to the left: 125 journalists gave to Democrats and liberal causes. Only 17 gave to Republicans. Two gave to both parties.


The most interesting thing about this article to me is that the fact that 9 of 10 journalists that donate, donated to Dems is buried in the article. Whatever.

 
213Tree
      ID: 515482121
      Thu, Jun 21, 2007, 22:50
whoop de do. a good journalist can do their job, without showing their political bias.

kinda like a good prosecutor...
 
214Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 00:57
Wasn't quite sure where this WaPO editorial belonged, but it is a indictment of the Democratic Congress(and Al Gore) for their recent statements and actions concerning Columbia's President Uribe, and it is spot on.

In a region where populist demagogues are on the offensive, Mr. Uribe stands out as a defender of liberal democracy, not to mention a staunch ally of the United States. So it was remarkable to see the treatment that the Colombian president received in Washington. After a meeting with the Democratic congressional leadership, Mr. Uribe was publicly scolded by House Majority leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), whose statement made no mention of the "friendship" she recently offered Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. Human Rights Watch, which has joined the Democratic campaign against Mr. Uribe, claimed that "today Colombia presents the worst human rights and humanitarian crisis in the Western hemisphere" -- never mind Venezuela or Cuba or Haiti. Former vice president Al Gore, who has advocated direct U.S. negotiations with the regimes of Kim Jong Il and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, recently canceled a meeting with Mr. Uribe because, Mr. Gore said, he found the Colombian's record "deeply troubling."

Obviously, the situation in Columbia has been chaotic for decades, but it behooves our Congressional leaders to acknowledge and promote progress, and Uribe has many more positives than negatives in the face of numerous hostile factions, including his own party.

Regardless, it's refreshing to see what is fashionably called the MSM call Democrats on the carpet when they deserve it, bearing in mind this is a WaPo editorial, not a columnist.

 
215Perm Dude
      ID: 15610715
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 01:09
Well, that's the difference right there, PV. The Editorial Page of the Washington Post has steered hard right for some time. I'm not saying that the facts don't warrant the very kind of editorial you seem to be applauding, but it isn't any surprise to me that the WaPo Editorial Page is slamming Al Gore or any other Democrat.
 
216Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 01:25
PD,
Not being a frequent reader, I'll have to take your claim that The Editorial Page of the Washington Post has steered hard right for some time(hard right?) as an honest interpretation.

Which begs the question,

How liberal is the so-called liberal media, when the other paper in the nation's capital, the Washington Times, is unabashedly right wing?
 
217Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 04:04
If the WaPo editorial page brings up a significant percentage of the scandals Hillary has been involved in during this campaign and takes them seriously I'll reconsider this but not until.

Some of their columnists couldn't speak any more adoringly of her if they were lovers.

It was the gleeful aproach of Ben Bradley during Watergate that tipped me off that the media wasn't objective and started me on my vendetta against the liberal media in the first place. If they have changed any since then it has escaped my notice.
 
218Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 05:07
The more I thot about this exchange between PV and PD the funnier it got.

[almost as funny as PD's contention that liberals are the fiscal conservatives]

Are we really to believe that WaPo has had a conservative turn-around and are now run by the children of the Reagan Revolution?

It is to die laughing.

A more likely interpretation of the editoral in question is that while Pelosi and Algore are as wild-eyed as they can hope for in this country..

[and let's ask for a broader sampling of all the negative ink Algore and Pelosi have gotten from that quarter before buying that pig]

...in South America they can actually hold out for, nay pave the way for an actual Hugo Chavez communist takeover.

I however breathlessly await PD's book revealing the Reaganista's takeover of the Washington Post just the same. Sounds very entertaining.
 
219sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 11:15
If the WaPo editorial page brings up a significant percentage of the scandals Hillary has been involved in during this campaign...

For example?
 
220Perm Dude
      ID: 13652810
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:05
Baldwin, I don't know if you are deliberately misreading my posts (probably--your bias prevents a honest reading) or just continue to make the same mistake.

Let's go with baby steps here, OK:

-There is a difference between a newspapers columnists and the editorial page. Sometimes editorial columns can appear on the editorial page, but the Washington Post editorial column is written by the Editorial Board of the WaPo.

-the columnists and news might (or might not be) biased. That wasn't my point. My point was only that the staff-written Washington Post editorial columns are far to the right of the rest of the paper.

You might not believe me. But until you understand the point I was making you aren't in a position to yet rebut it.

Also, I never said that "liberals are the fiscal conservatives." This is an example of your bias coming into play. I stated that the Clinton Administration, with Al Gore leading the way, shrunk the size of government to the lowest levels in decades (in terms of employees, programs, and money), and the federal budget was balanced. Your mistake is that you cannot, ever, think of Democrats as not being "liberal." In your mind they are the same thing. But they are not.

Back here on earth there exist these creatures called "moderate Democrats" which are not liberals. In fact, if you have any clue about what is going on in the Democratic Party right now, you will see that there is a big backlash against moderate Dems by the "progressives" (the liberals). But you either don't want to see it, or can't. Until you sort that out it might be best for you to just hold off posting on the topic.

Meanwhile, we all await your demonstration that the GOP are the fiscal conservatives. In your reply, try to work in the fact that last year Republican-led Congress couldn't even be bothered to complete 9 of 11 spending bills. Way to step up to the plate, GOP!
 
221Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 16:44
1) The Wall Street Journal is an example of a left wing paper and a conservative editorial page. The Washington Post is not.

2) The DLC may be slightly...and I mean slighty less spend-happy than Nancy Pelosi but I notice who the Dems made leader of the house with the purse-strings.

3) The only reason Clinton could control spending was by cutting the military during Reagan's peace dividend and having the Republican congress tell him no more spending for 6 of his 8 years.

4) Meanwhile, we all await your demonstration that the GOP are the fiscal conservatives

I wouldn't dream of trying until the conservatives take back their party from the neo-con stranglehold. I actually saw Bill Kristol defend big government during the height of the Reagan presidency. Unfortunately Reagan and his revolution are gone but Bill Kristol and the neo-cons aren't.
 
222Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 16:47
And you think I should be disturbed that a spending bill or 9 go down in flames?

Nice obliviousness there you old fiscal conservative, you!
 
223Perm Dude
      ID: 13652810
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 17:46
And you think I should be disturbed that a spending bill or 9 go down in flames

I didn't say that. I said that Republicans (being fiscal conservatives, it seems, as well as the ones who "get serious" about spending in Washington), wouldn't be bothered to send 9 of 11 spending bills to Bush for his signature.

You can try to excuse away the fact that the budget was balanced during the Clinton Administration. The fact is, it was balanced. And that old canard about the "peace dividend" doesn't pass even a cursory look (not the least reason is that President Bush I also had the "peace dividend" but neglected to use it, apparently). The balanced budget occurred because of discretionary non-military spending being eliminated from the budget.
 
224Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 19:13
1) I'd give Clinton/Gore a point if they had put into place a reduction in force thru hiring freeze but instead they handed the lion's share of the 'savings' back to the employees in the form of large bonuses for quiting early instead as a payoff to the Dem union bosses.

2) that old canard about the "peace dividend" doesn't pass even a cursory look (not the least reason is that President Bush I also had the "peace dividend" but neglected to use it, apparently)

You only get the peace dividend once. If you get to cut the military in 2/3 because communism has fallen, that third is not still there for the next president to slash.

3) Madman to PD in 2004...
And, you also seem to forget that Clinton balanced the budget by accident. Clinton's first budget were projecting budget deficits for 2001-2003 that were very, very similar to Bush's actual. It was only in his 1997 budget did he finally see that balancing the budget was a possibility, and there is no coincidence that this happened after the Republicans took over the Congress and the 1995/6 budget impass effectively froze domestic spending for a year.

It's odd ... you, as a Democrat are now trying to take credit for shutting down the government back then. I could have sworn back then that Democrats were blaming Republicans for it. So, which is it? Did Clinton balance the budget? Or did the Republican Congress? You can't have it both ways.
 
225Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Mon, Jul 09, 2007, 18:00
The Editorial Page of the Washington Post has steered hard right for some time. -#215 PD

Any success shopping that book idea around all your publishing friends? Since taking your idea to print was my idea how about we split anything that it outgrosses 'All The President's Men' by?

*daydream*

'The Day Conservatives Took Over the Washington Post Editorial Page' or 'Richard Nixon Exacts His Unholy Revenge' - by PermDude

cha-ching

*/daydream*
 
226Wilmer McLean
      ID: 51124242
      Sun, Feb 24, 2008, 03:46


-------------------------------------------------

 
227Tree
      ID: 46137249
      Sun, Feb 24, 2008, 10:44
i see the bias there...

why does a man get a "motorcade", but a woman gets an "escort"?
 
228Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 12:53


Sounds like Sam Zell is just another crazy liberal hippie newspaper man.
 
230bibA
      Leader
      ID: 261028117
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 13:28
Headlines from todays Los Angeles Times: "McCain has edge over Democrats. He is rated higher for experience, fighting terrorism and Iraq. The GOP candidate is rated 'strongest leader.'

I would challenge those on the right who believe in the "mainstream liberal bias" to explain how this is "liberal bias", and would also ask him that if the parties and candidates were opposite, if he would then use these statements by the Times as examples backing up his claim of a mainstream liberal bias.

So often when a media outlet such as the Times says something positive about Republicans, those on the right say that they are just reporting facts, but when the reverse is reported, it is just another example of the bias.
 
231Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:15
A. The L.A. Times will endorse a Democrat in the general election.

B. The L.A. Times wants the Republican candidate to lose.

C. The L.A. Times will promote the Republican candidate with the least chance of winning the general election.
 
232sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:20
If "C" were true, they'd be running stories on Ron Paul.
 
233Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:21
If "C" were true, they'd be running stories on Ron Paul.

More likely Alan Keyes.
 
234Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:21
The LA Times months ago reported that every chinese minimum wage dishwasher in the country had donated the max allowed to the Clinton campaign. And then the libs there refused to ever breath a word of it again.

If that sort of story got the continuing coverage and had the impact it deserved, only then would the LA Times rise above snakes' belly on the respectable objectivity meter.

BTW old soldiers don't die, they just smell that way.

 
235Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:28
Zell this morning on Squawk Box blames the Dem Presidential candidates for the country's economic woes (or at least for the perception that the economy is in bad shape):
"Obviously what we have going on is an attempt to create a self-fulfilling prophecy," said Zell, chairman of Equity Investments Group and owner of the Chicago Cubs, Chicago Tribune, Los Angeles Times and other companies. "We have two Democratic candidates who are vying with each other to describe the economic situation worse.
 
236biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:30
That story, if your synopsis is accurate, can't possibly be true, so the impact it deserved is nil.

Why repeat nonsense even once, much less over and over?
 
237Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:38
Hyperbole aside, of course there is one they missed, the story of the Chinese purchase of the Clintons is well established.
 
238Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 14:41
Here's the story B refers to.
 
239Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:00
I am surprized Zell isn't instead getting more play here for his willingness to rename Wriggley Field. It's the story here in Chicago today.
 
240Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:15
Nobody chooses to argue A....The L.A. Times will endorse a Democrat for President in the general election.


 
241Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:39
B7
I don't think anyone cares to venture a guess on a currently unknowable position. That refers to both A and B.

I will take issue with C, however. The LA Times has endorsed John McCain. At no point during the 2008 campaign (and certainly not in February) has John McCain been the republican candidate who is least likely to win the general election in November.
 
242Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:48
A. The L.A. Times will endorse a Democrat in the general election.

As well they should. Only a few dunderheads, troglodytes, and the National Review will endorse McCain. Sens. Obama and Clinton are FAR better choices to lead this country, no bias needed to come to that obvious conclusion.
 
243Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:58
I just noticed the L.A. Times has a new owner. I will still wager $11 to guru that they endorse a Democrat in the November election. Nobody will take the other side because they know that this will happen just like it does in every presidential election. There is your liberal media bias.
 
244sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 16:06
and I'll wager FOXNews endorses McCain. There's your conservative media bias.

Whats your point?
 
245Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 16:15
I just noticed the L.A. Times has a new owner.

Welcome to the discussion.
 
246Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 16:20
I'm still waiting on your wager from
this thread.

My point is that there really is liberal media bias. Foxnews has become like CNN. They used to be OK. I agree Fox news has a conservative bias. There are about 10 liberal outlets for every one foxnews, though.
 
247Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 16:26
I will still wager $11 to guru that they endorse a Democrat in the November election. Nobody will take the other side because they know that this will happen just like it does in every presidential election. There is your liberal media bias.

Actually, Building 7, this is the first time the LA Times has endorsed a presidential candidate for a party nomination or a general elevction since they endorsed Republican Richard Nixon in 1972. Any more words of wisdom for the forum?
 
248Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 16:34
Seattle Zen 242

Only a few dunderheads, troglodytes, and the National Review will endorse McCain.

If the unlikely should happen and HRC winds up with the Dem nomination (and no attractive 3rd party candidate emerges) I will indeed be one of those dunderheaded troglodytes.
 
249Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 16:59
I will indeed be one of those dunderheaded troglodytes.

Well, don't trim your beard and you'll look the part, too ;)
 
250Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 17:13
Congratulations Mr. Mattinglyinthehall. After years of me posting, and hours of your fact-checking, you finally found something. I figured they were like the N.Y. Times and didn't bother to look it up. Good catch. Not only did they not endorse Dems, the last person they endorsed was Nixon. I see why they stopped. If you want, you can never believe a word I post on here again. I don't think you ever have anyways.

 
251Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 23:02
Don't slit yer throat, B7. They don't have to officially endorse to clearly take sides and there have been few more reliable bastions of dinosaur politics than the LA TIMES. Dunno what the new ownership portends.
 
252Wilmer McLean
      ID: 3032330
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 02:48
In this AP article Chelsea Clinton Criticizes Bush in N.C. check out this paragraph:

"I think the world will breathe a sigh of relief when this president is gone," Clinton said, criticizing Bush for pulling out of various accordings, including the Kyoto Protocol on global warming.

What a biased inference by Erin Gartner of the AP.



According to the Senate roll call vote on s.res.98 the result was 95-0!

Now that's reaching across the aisle and gaining consensus!
 
253bibA
      ID: 432103113
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 13:22
I don't understand your objection Wilmer. It appears that the writer of the piece was quoting someone whom she was writing about. If one of George Bush' daughters had stated in 1999 that "the world will breathe a sigh of relief when President Clinton is gone", and if the quote was reported by the AP, would you feel the author was expressing a biased inference?
 
254biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 13:24
I think you missed Wilmer's point. He was disputing the interpretation after the quote.
 
255Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 13:31
What a biased inference by Erin Gartner of the AP.

I don't see how the inference is biased, unless you know exactly what Clinton said and that it was something different from what was reported.

You could reasonably fault the AP for reporting Clinton's claim without correcting it but that's hardly the same level of infraction that you assert.
 
256Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 14:04
I mentioned this last week, but what of the media bias that comes daily from Iraq? It seems to me it's not liberal, as most conservatives claim, but a somewhat distorted picture of reality.

I mentioned that every single AP story from Iraq describes Moqtada Al-Sadr as either radical, anti-American or both. While it's true that Al-Sadr is anti-American military occupation of Iraq, does that make him anti-American? The implication is that his movement is really no different than Al Qaeda, with goals of terrorist acts aimed at the US and its citizens. Of course the differences are night and day.

Three AP reports from Iraq today back me up.

Here

Al-Maliki did not mention by name the Mahdi Army militia, which is led by radical Shiite leader Muqtada al-Sadr.

Here

The office of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr called Thursday for a "million-strong" turnout for an anti-American demonstration next week to mark the fifth anniversary of the capture of Baghdad by invading U.S. troops

and
Here.

A U.S. fighter jet destroyed a house in the Shiite southern city of Basra, killing two militants after American and Iraqi ground forces came under fire, the military said Thursday. Iraqi witnesses and officials said at least three civilians were among the dead.

The American military said separately that it was looking into reports that civilians were killed in a second airstrike in Basra but it could provide no further details.

The strikes in Basra underscored the high tensions as the Iraqi government continues a crackdown against Shiite militias four days after radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr ordered his Mahdi Army fighters to stand down.


Some might argue that using jets to bomb a house to kill two militants while also killing at least three civilians is radical.
 
257Wilmer McLean
      ID: 49452296
      Sat, May 31, 2008, 03:55


-------------------------------------------------

In a story aired May 27 and May 28, CNN removed a gaffe from Barack Obama's Memorial Day salute to fallen heroes. The missing text: "and I see many of them in, in the audience here today".


 
258Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, May 31, 2008, 06:08
I wonder if Mith will start a thread about CNN now. Excellent find.
 
260Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 31, 2008, 07:10
Why is this an example of bias?

Even if it was an example of bias, why should this prompt me to start a thread about CNN?
 
261Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, May 31, 2008, 08:38
LMAO.
 
262Tree
      ID: 13432317
      Sat, May 31, 2008, 08:41
more importantly than the fact that this is REALLY grasping when it comes to bias, is the fact that it makes the right appear to be much more concerned about flag pins (still) and speaking gaffes.

is this truly how frightened many conservatives are? the biggest attacks on Obama come on non-issues.
 
263Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 31, 2008, 08:54
It's not easy to maintain a civil tone when simple and hionest questions are met with mocking laughter.
 
264Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 06:13
Just count how many times The Great Leader's name in invoked compared to McCain's in this coverage of the electoral map.

CNN used to stand for the Clinton News Network. I think we'll need a new acronym.

CNN
 
265Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 06:14
I am now awaiting the attack dog response from Mith, the denials from PD & Tree, a fight challenge from Sarge, and a drug related cartoon from Seattle Zen......
 
266Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 06:56
I don't think many who watch that clip will feel it's an example of bias. Maybe if it was a scrpted event and you could detect a certain emphasis on Obama's name vs when he said McCain but neither is teh case here. I counted 12 mentions of Obama vs 7 of McCain but the coverage itself - you know, what they are actually saying about the candidates - did't seem biased at all. It was a straightfoward report about the electoral situation. You're really grasping.

But by all means keep trying, it really shouldn't be hard for you to find at least occassional liberal bias at CNN. You just haven't figured out to look for yet. This isn't it.
 
267Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 13:16
Here's another example of bias. Click on the link NOW, meaning TODAY because it might change given that it's the main page of a Chicago paper.

Obama

There is a section off to the right just for Barack Obama, then a Politics section separate from that.

So basically the major groupings at the Chicago Sun Times are: Barack Obama, Politics, Nation, and World.

Now please tell me that's not bias in coverage.
 
268biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 13:19
In case you aren't aware of it, Box, je's a senator from the south side of Chicago who the democratic nominee for the President of the United States. Just a heads-up.
 
269Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 13:48
Someone care to explain why CNN will alter video footage to put Obama in a positive light as mentioned in #257, but will make a McCain flub literally headline news on their website?

If you go to CNN.com right now you'll see the link right on the main page.

McCain - Beer
 
270Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 14:00
keep rolling it in flour Boxman. lol. this is REALLY funny to watch these desperate stabs at the wet spot.
 
271Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 14:10
267 - I agree, Boxman, that Chicago, IL newspaper does appear to offer greater coverage of the Presidential candidate who is also a local senator there. At least that appears to be the case today.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily pro-liberal bias or necessarily inappropriate, either, but obviously, it seems biased in amount of coverage of the apparent major party nominees.

269 - That's not an example bias. The video of Obama linked in 257 is a package. There's no such thing as an unedited news package. The video you linked in post 269 is just a raw video clip (or a SOT, technically).
 
272Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 14:36
I hit Post Now too fast - meant to add that the McCain 'beer' clip might be a fair indicator of bias if you can demonstrably show that they don't or wouldn't treat an Obama flub the same way.

Typically news outlets make sport of poking fun at presidential candidates so I think it's likely that you'll see more of that sort of thing from both camps. For example this article appeared on page 8 in today's NY Daily News - Barack Obama gets poor fashion marks after weekend bike ride:
Barack Obama ditched the campaign trail for the bike trail last weekend, offering onlookers a rare peek into the Democratic nominee's casual-wear closet.

It wasn't a pretty picture: ill-fitting jeans, a tucked-in golf shirt, black-and-white socks and a helmet that could make Michael Dukakis blush.

"Please tell me he isn't wearing dark socks," commented one of many Internet fashionistas who weighed in on Obama's recent ride along Lake Michigan with his wife, Michelle, and their two daughters, Sasha, 7, and Malia, 9.

"Barry is politically correct, wearing a nice helmet," noted another, tongue firmly in cheek.
Here's accompanying photo:


 
273Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 20:22
Not in Dukakis territory. In fact I hear one media expert saying the #1 reason Obama won the nomination is that he just looks better than Hillary.
 
274Razor
      ID: 4532926
      Wed, Jun 11, 2008, 09:09
That theory might hold just an ounce of water if John Kerry didn't win the last Democratic nomination over John Edwards, among others, and John McCain didn't just beat out Mitt Romney, among others.
 
275Boldwin
      ID: 43561110
      Wed, Jun 11, 2008, 11:33
First I think the cases you bring up can be explained more by which freemason lodge they sprang from than anything else but that's just my hunch.

I don't think you can ever afford to ignore that angle. Especially since Hillary is unappealing on so many levels. Granted her team didn't seem to understand the Dem's primary setup and there was some arrogance there screwing up the strat. Pretty mindboggling for all their reputation. They were supposed to be the prepared ones. Then there is the fact that Obama had the internet thing down better. But I still think we are underestimating the shallowness of the electorate when it comes to appearance, especially a woman's appearance.
 
276biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 08:54
A disgusting attack on Michelle Obama, and The New York Times bafflingly still bending over backwards to be objective about it:

Consider this headline and subhead from the New York Times website:

Fox Forced to Address Michelle Obama Headline

In referring to the candidate's wife, the network used a slang term that many found offensive.
The Fox "headline" involved (actually a chyron: text that appears on a TV screen) was:

Outraged Liberals: Stop picking on Obama’s baby mama

The Times news story itself (far better written than the headline) explains the meaning of "baby mama.":

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the term as one “chiefly in African-American usage” that refers to, “The mother of a man’s child, who is not his wife nor (in most cases) his current or exclusive partner.”

"A term that many found offensive"? Who, pray, didn't find it offensive to classify a wife as equivalent to a casual girlfriend who got pregnant, and to do so using a black slang term when the couple involved happens to be black?

But the subhead suggests, to anyone who doesn't click through to the story, that Fox was simply another victim of the politically correct language police: the sort of people who find, or purport to find, the word "niggardly" offensive either because they don't know what it means or because they like to stir up trouble and force other people to apologize. This is the result of the subhead-writer's reluctance to characterize this especially nasty bit of Fox filth as "offensive;" instead, the offense must be projected onto an unnamed "many."

This avoids the headline-writer's seeming to take sides. But it does so at the expense of clarity. The expression was offensive, and was intended offensively. Why not say so?
 
277Razor
      ID: 17521223
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 12:28
I still think we are underestimating the shallowness of the electorate when it comes to appearance, especially a woman's appearance.

You're projecting.
 
278Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 17:34
Tell me truly. Do you really believe I would have warmed up to Hillary if she had only been better looking? Do ya? The face of evil is by no means always ugly.
 
279holt
      ID: 341542412
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 20:47
It wasn't a Fox News decision to use the term baby mama. It was the act of a single (stupid) producer. Kinda like, CBS Sports never said blacks were superior athletes due to slave breeding. It was Jimmy the Greek who said it. I don't remember anyone holding CBS directly responsible.

It would be wise for Fox News to take appropriate action toward the producer. Demotion, firing, whatever. If they don't, then the network itself has to accept full blame for the incident.
 
280Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 21:34
I have a black friend with a white wife (Enough bragging about my multiculturism, just trying to outline the story here.) that refers to her as his "Baby's Mama". Now this guy loves his wife and kid. He just calls her that when he's out with the guys. He doesn't mean anything negative about it. It's a term. For me, this is a non starter, a yawn moment.
 
281Tree
      ID: 55151418
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 22:49
TOTALLY different situation Boxman, and you know it.

if i'm with my buddyies at the gym, and one of us calls the other a bitch, it's in good fun. but if someone we don't know says something like that to one of us, it's much less fun.

i have friends i joke with about baby mama's and such, but again, it's between friends.

it was, without question, a negative comment from Fox, and damned close to be racist.
 
282Razor
      ID: 17521223
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 23:24
Re: 278 - You would never warm up to Hillary Clinton, which is kind of the point. You think she is extremely unattractive because you hate her. And you are projecting your hate on to the rest of the American populace. Some share your hate, most don't. If they did, she would not have come even reasonably close to the Democratic nomination. I think it should be obvious even to you that there exists a serious bias problem when someone who abhors Hillary Clinton tries to talk about why she lost. I mean, how could you just pick one reason?

Regardless, your post 273 was meant as a shot at both Obama and Hillary. Unfortunately, I don't think you're able to support it.

Re: 280 - Wow, I am kind of amazed that you think that anecdote is remotely analogous. Terrible.
 
283Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 00:33
No, I clearly am not projecting my fear and loathing of that mosterous criminal onto the rest of america. I have no earthly idea why anyone has a positive impression of her. Projection suggests I would be 'seeing' their feelings and actions thru my [subjective] prism.

I don't think 1 in 10 americans can list the 20-30 scandals she was involved in or that they even registered with them.

My feelings towards her have nothing whatsoever to do with her looks so how could I impute that onto others by extention/projection. How could the hypothesis I linked to be my projection?

I know you understand projection but you just threw that out without thinking it thru.
 
284Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 01:46
Boxman 280

Ask the mother of your black friend what she thinks of a national television news show referring to Michelle Obama as "Obama's baby-mama".


Holt 279

For prepared segments, chyrons are produced beforehand and seen by numerous people at the network. If you don't hold media outlets responsible for the actions of it's employees then you're giving them a free pass to do whatever thety want and chalk it up to incompetance that doesn't reflect the network's standards.

What that producer did is no different than E.D. Hill saying 'terrorist-fist-jab'. The reporter and the producer are representatives of the network. The network put them there and the network is responsible for what they present to the public.

By your logic, there's no reason to question the blatent discrepency Time magazine shows in it's two headlines seen in post 226. After all, it wasn't Time Magazine that chose to headline those very similar stories so differently, it was just one or two employees who made one or two stupid or maybe just inconsistant decisions.

And that logic clearly precludes anyone from accusing NBC of (rather stupidly) presenting false images to play up a the impact of global warming when a news package about ice melting in the arctic happened to include video with a penguin in it (there are no penguins in the arctic).

Of course the key is finding a pattern of behavior. I agree the above items might seem enough like isloated incidents if there is no trend in such occasions.

And the same is true of the baby-mama chyron.

However:

FOX has reported as fact the false claim that Barack Obama attended a Madrassa.

We've seen FOX claim the words of Rev Wright are Obama's personal opinion.

We've seen them ridiculously accuse his campaign of using code words for old in their statements about McCain.

We've seen them ask the viewers for their opinion of whether he referred to McCain's age after presenting the story from a biased point of view.

We've seen them subtitle that poll (who subtitles a viewer poll?) "Barack Barb".

We've seen them refer to an innocuous, genuine and simultaneously hip and tasteful personal gesture between Obama and his wife as a "terrorist-fist-bump".



You telling me there's no pattern there?
 
285Boxman
      ID: 211139621
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 09:30
Your life experience and typical liberal outrage may incline you to think that "Baby Mama" is a racist term. I don't see that. My life experience, which is valid given that's how culures are defined so anecdoctal evidence is valid here, is such that "Baby Mama" is no big deal. I've known this couple since before their child was born and was in graduate school with both of them.

Baby Mama, from my life experience, is totally innocent and a cultural term of some sort. I've even called my wife "My Baby's Mama" before. I refuse to join the cacophony of outraged liberals in their attempt to project and implement NewSpeak on everyone.

What disappoints me about FOX is that I was surprised they didn't use a more professional way of referring to probably the next First Lady of the United States.

I reiterate that this term means nothing to me. I've seen it used and used it myself enough times appropriately and I've seen the FOX clip and I don't think they ought to be condemned for it other than the reason I stated above.

As far as what my friend's wife would think, they've endured enough racism from a-holes (especially when they visit family in Texas) as the result of being an interracial couple so I think they have bigger fish to fry in their lives.
 
286Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 10:49
Baby Mama, like redneck or the n-word or faggot or 'ho' is a term that can be used in a derogatory manner, despite the fact that (like all those others) it can be used by the groups they disparage in a non-offensive or sometimes even in an endearing way. If you're feigning a belief that since your black friend refers to his own wife this way, it cannot be applied in a racist manner, this is the epitome of disingenuousness. But I suspect, given other misconceptions you have expressed here regarding racism and race relations (such as the notion that President Clinton specifically slighted African Americans in failing to act in Rwanda and that it bothers you that you cannot openly address your black friends with the n-word) that this is just further evidence of your abject ignorance on the topic of what some American cultures find disprespectful.
 
287Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 10:54
I doubt there is anyone else here who is ignorant enoug to believe that a major news network referring to a potential future first lady as baby-mama is not in any way disrespectful.
 
288Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 12:00
MITH

Is there any way you could stop speaking for other people, conservatives in particular, on your way to using the fallacious bandwagon argument?
 
289Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 12:27
My apologies if you insist you belong among the ignorant.
 
290Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:00
Were you attempting to demonstrate non sequitor or an undemonstrated claim of superiority, or an appeal for pity...have we hurt your feelings by not sharing your feelings? Hoping powerful emotive language will substitute for substance?

You really google your heart out but then you debate lazy.
 
291Perm Dude
      ID: 245411418
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:05
Just because Boxman has an anectdote about a couple who don't mind using the term doesn't mean it shouldn't be used by FOX News. Their continued efforts to paint Obama as "other" is a disservice to the public airwaves they take up.
 
292biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:12
I have an anecdote about a friend who uses the term about his baby's mama all the time. It generally goes something like "My baby's mama if f...in' around again, that C.nt."

She's white and he's half Chinese.

My point? No point, other than anecdotes are worth jack-shite.
 
293Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:14
Sure, there's not substance to the first sentence of 286. I'm certain you'd be just fine with church groups and whoever else addressing your daughters-in-law as your sons' baby-mamas, Baldwin. In fact I suggest you so address them in front of every one at the next family gathering.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:28
MITH

Just because my crowd doesn't use the term and that I am barely familiar with it does not mean that I should let you get away with lazy ad hominems and half the rest of the false argument toolkit thrown in for good measure.
 
295Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:37
My apologies if you insist you belong among the ignorant.

Only in your permanently enclosed verbally limited world of NewSpeak where in ten years we'll be limited to 8 words and everything will be doubleplus good (at least to you).

Baby Mama, like redneck or the n-word or faggot or 'ho' is a term that can be used in a derogatory manner

A LOT of words can. This is further credence to your liberal desire to turn the English language into true NewSpeak. Will you be spending your Sunday afternoon conjuring up all the words in the dictionary, and then some, that fit this profile so they can be placed into the incinerator?

If words that have two or more meanings give you cognitive dissonance, I highly suggest revisiting your nearest public (re-)education school.
 
296Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:44
I guess we need to add the term 'Imussing' and 'Imus' to the vocabulary alongside 'Bork' and 'Borking'.

'No you may not use the vernacular, violator of the speech code may be rendered employed and unemployable'.
 
297tastethewaste
      ID: 911431318
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:51
I dont contribute to this political board and I dont have much to add here but has the wife of a presidential candidate in the history of the US ever been referred to as said candidate's baby mama? And if not, then the next logical question would be why is Fox referring to her in this way.

At worst its racism. At best it is totally disrespectful.

Why do you think...Boxman...Boldwin?
 
298Jag
      ID: 28457122
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 13:55
I am a Fox fan and the 'baby's momma' comment was wrong, funny as hell, but wrong.
 
299Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 14:24
While I admit I am not an expert on the term I would bet that whoever wrote that thot they were being 'up to speed' with the current vernacular just as Imus thot he was doing. If I understand it correctly they weren't actually using the term accurately so it was an epic failure in that sense.

It was prolly intended as a left handed compliment on the order of 'isn't she unusually young and kool for a potential first lady with her knuckle bump...trending towards Jackie K...[tho we won't be quite that clear and effusive about it...we'll leave that for the MSM to do].
 
300Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 14:45
This is further credence to your liberal desire to turn the English language into true NewSpeak

LOL! Any understanding of 'baby-mama' as disparaging is a distortion of the King's English!
 
301Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 14:46
*slipping into Razor/MITH mode*

...But that interpretation never occurred to you because you were too busy hating...

...But that interpretation never occurred to you because you were too ignorant...

*/mode*

Oh I'm sorry, where are my manners? I slipped into the pattern set by the 'less divissive' 'new politics' 'we really wish the debate didn't go in that direction' crowd.
 
302tastethewaste
      ID: 911431318
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 14:54
so baldwin, re 299. Would you be willing to give that same benefit of the doubt to MSNBC if they ran a graphic Angry Conservatives: Stop picking on Old Granny McCain!

Just curious?
 
303Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 15:18
But that interpretation never occurred to you because

As if ther really are multiple ways to interpret the chyron. You really think that socially conservative blacks like Colon Powell, Condi Rice, Bill Cosby and Stanley Crouch don't see any disrespect from FOX in using that term?
 
304Razor
      ID: 17521223
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 15:43
Re: 283 - Looks are subjective. You constantly mock Hillary Clinton's looks, but I think the majority of Americans who do not hate her as you do see a woman who looks about average for a 60 year old woman. You find Hillary very unattractive because you hate her.

Re: 287 - It is clearly disrespectful and blatantly inappropriate. It has racial undertones because the term would likely not have been used about McCain's wife, Edwards' wife or any white candidate.
 
305Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 15:43
Boldwin #299: Agreed. Too bad liberals are so preoccupied with their victimization complex.
 
306Razor
      ID: 17521223
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 15:46
Post 305 is the definition of irony, considering where it was posted.
 
307Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 16:01
LOL
 
308Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 16:10
Razor

  • Lincoln said that “Every person is responsible for his own looks after 40.” . Hopefully I haven't stumbled on a spurious quote.

    Be that as it may or not be, it is largely true as the character eventually starts showing.

  • A random look at how the phrase is actually being used by actual people in the real world. People they clearly love, notice.
 
309Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 16:36
Boxman

Note...
  1. Victims must be on the 'PC approved list. They aren't actually victims if they do not appear there.

  2. No objective weighing of the victimization is allowed.

  3. No expression of outrage that does not violate rule #1 is unmerited.

  4. If the victim has actually been abused and he is not on the PC approved victim list refer to rule #1.

  5. Liberals are allowed days of rage...nay lifetimes of rage and these are to be accorded all dignity...whereas in cases of those not on the PC approved victims list, see rule #1 and accuse even the slightest hint of objection as whining and hypocracy.

  6. The double standard must be maintained immaculately.
 
310Tree
      ID: 52541517
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 18:32
i didn't notice this mentioned about...

but does anyone in their right mind think that any news network - especially Fox - would refer to Cindy McCain as McCain's Baby Momma?
 
311Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Wed, Jul 02, 2008, 16:22
Recovering in his home in France, naturally.

Why risk lives even recovering this guy next time?
 
312Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jul 02, 2008, 16:38
good to know you're advocating the possible murder of an American Citizen.

Daniel Pearl's death was probably acceptable to you as well, since, ya know, his wife and child are French.
 
313DWetzel at work
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jul 02, 2008, 16:46
To quote from the link posted in 311:

(sarcasm) "Absolutely. American troops are renowned for torturing network reporters. You read about that all the time. Poor bastards are dropping like flies at the hands of our soldiers. It's a real scandal."

Nope, that never happens. At least not to our reporters.

Haditha Reporter Was Jailed By US - Two Times
 
314Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Jul 02, 2008, 16:52
Why risk lives even recovering this guy next time?

You wonder why a good guy should be saved from death from the bad guys? Aren't you supposed to be the resident religious guy here? If you want to preach about how lack of religion is dooming our country and the world, you'd do well to set a good example.
 
315Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Wed, Jul 02, 2008, 17:27
He's on their side.
 
316Tree
      ID: 261031
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 02:13
He's on their side.

you're advocating the possible murder of an American citizen.

to me, that puts YOU on "their" side.
 
317Perm Dude
      ID: 1463718
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 02:35
There has to be a side, Baldwin? And depending upon the "side" one is on, this determines what rights, if any, one enjoys?

And you are against abortions by Democrats for what reason, exactly?
 
318Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 04:02
Well actually a 'news reporter' with as poisonous an idea of USA troops as he has is actually more deadly than the enemy. Cronkite being the original type.

I didn't advocate murdering him. I advocating not rescuing someone who would rather slap you in the face than be rescued.
 
319bibA
      ID: 245423018
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 12:11
Under the Baldwin ruled benevolent government, someone would have to be in charge of making these decisions regarding just who is politically correct enough to be rescued. I bet you would just go ahead and take on that responsibility yourself, unless someone as fair and open minded as you were willing to take on this assignment. Maybe Ann Coulter would fit that bill, unless she were too busy as the Secretary of State.
 
320Perm Dude
      ID: 296439
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 12:16
There is little better example of the greatness of America that we not only extend rights to, but even rescue those who would "slap us in the face."

Once again Baldwin would take us down the path of diminution.

We don't even need to debate the truth of whether this reporter, as one example of a range of reporters who are virtually our sole bastion against government control of information, is or intends to be "slapping us in the face." It is enough to know that Baldwin would withhold help from those he considers not to be pro-American enough.
 
321Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 12:23
Unless we have a scenario where Iraqi troops are occupying the United States and examples of how Americans treat reporters from Al Jaazera, it's all kind of moot.

I dare say the Al Jaazera reporter might not fare any better than Butler.
 
323Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 13:37
A reporter is more deadly than murderers? Boy, this just keeps getting better and better.

Boldwin, when you advocate the possible death of an innocent man, perhaps it is time to break from liberal-hating for a while.
 
324Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 22:03
1. Cronkite was worth more than the entire NV army to the enemy.

2. Not rescuing is not the same as killing. For all you know he was ready to go native. Sure sounds like it to me and I wouldn't even give him the benefit of the 'Stockholm Syndrome' excuse.
 
325Tree
      ID: 261031
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 01:38
Not rescuing is not the same as killing.

but the risk of killing is greater if he isn't rescued, so, you're advocating that his death is acceptable.

For all you know he was ready to go native.

and, for all you know, he wasn't, and another US Citizen is murdered because Baldwin doesn't believe he's worth being rescued.

you may be the least christian-acting christian i've ever encountered, for all your personal policies of intolerance and blatant disregard for life.
 
326Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 17:42
The difference, Tree is that liberals want to rescue every murderer and rapist on death row and I want to rescue innocent human life.

If the man has more sympathy for his captors than his 'rescuers' leave him be where he is happiest.

Realistically you couldn't have been aware he was that anti-american probably, not knowing this man's body of work and there is always a possibilty there could be stockholm syndrome at play so I am only speaking in principle, hypothetically and in hindsight. I am not suggesting we assume every American journalist is that anti-american so as to be not worth risking other American's lives on the rescue mission. I wouldn't mind if they did the math on the next case tho.

Strange Tree never considers the risk to the lives of the rescuers when he weighs the situation.
 
327Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 17:53
Also strange is those rare instances when liberals are actually in favor of sending in the marines.

When the american leader of CAIR gets kidnapped should we send in the marines?

If the Italian reporter who slammed America upon their release gets kidnapped again?

Tree's never in favor of sending in the marines for people actually deserving our sympathy.

Kinda remenicent of Elian Gonzales. The only deportation liberals were ever in favor of.
 
328Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 17:54
Since that reporter lives in France, you would think the French would try and rescue him too. Oh wait, that involves French military. They probably pre-surrendered to Islamofascism a long time ago.
 
329Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 17:56
Kinda remenicent of Elian Gonzales. The only deportation liberals were ever in favor of.

You mean this? At gunpoint nonetheless...

 
330Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 18:00
That would be the only cop they love.
 
331Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 18:12
Obamas running mate? He would appear tough on defense to the wine and cheese liberal crowd. ;)
 
332Tree
      ID: 261031
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 18:15
The difference, Tree is that liberals want to rescue every murderer and rapist on death row and I want to rescue innocent human life.

i won't speak for others on the left, despite the fact that fools believe one liberal = all liberals, but i don't want to rescue anyone who committed murder or rape. but i do believe that the execution of one innocent person is enough to put the whole thing on hold until we can figure a better way.

i definitely like the way you and boxman continually take a discussion about one topic, then twist it an apply it to another. it's only a matter of time before this involves abortion, welfare, the war in iraq, gas prices, and terri schiavo.

If the man has more sympathy for his captors than his 'rescuers' leave him be where he is happiest.

i'm not overly fond of how this nation handled Iraq. i suppose i should be deported?

the fact remains that you are advocating the possible murder of an american citizen, no matter how you spin it. i'm sure your god loves that.

Realistically you couldn't have been aware he was that anti-american probably...

his political beliefs don't mean a damned thing to me in this case. he's an american citizen, and should be rescued. i don't care for your politics, but i wouldn't want you to be held captive by people who might kill you.

i guess that's the difference between you and i.

Strange Tree never considers the risk to the lives of the rescuers when he weighs the situation.

of course i do. but they're being paid to do a job, if that job involves rescuing an american (with no death to innocents), then so be it.

Also strange is those rare instances when liberals are actually in favor of sending in the marines.

military is already there, no?

If the Italian reporter who slammed America upon their release gets kidnapped again?

is Italy still our ally in this bogus war?

Kinda remenicent of Elian Gonzales. The only deportation liberals were ever in favor of.

that line right there shows how full fo $hit you tend to be, and how inconsistent you are.

this child was returned to his father. yet, because the father is a communist, you have no problem with him being denied his rights to raise that child he fathered.

really makes you look foolish in regards to all your parental rights discussions in the FLDS threads.

 
333Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 20:09
Obviously the mother loved Elian more than you or his father.
 
334Boldwin
      ID: 3363215
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 20:21
Well that's not fair to his father. No telling what he would have done had he been standing in Miami.
 
335Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 21:36
With Reno 911 as the AG he probably would have had a submachine gun pointed in his face too.
 
336Tree
      ID: 261031
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 22:14
Obviously the mother loved Elian more than you or his father.

i am sure, without question, that Elian's mother loved him more that i ever did. if she didn't, i'd think something wrong of her.

the fact of that matter is that you are a hypocrite, because for all your advocacy against "state sponsored kidnapping", all you are doing here is 100 percent advocating the state take a child away from his parent.
 
337bibA
      ID: 245423018
      Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 23:13
Isn't the difference here that the state wasn't going to put the child into a Child Protective Services program, but had an option to leave him with his mother had they not removed him from relatives and returned him to his father?
 
338Tree
      ID: 261031
      Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 01:25
the mother died trying to leave cuba, so he was in this country staying with relatives.

baldwin would have preferred this child not be raised by his father, who committed no crimes and did nothing other than love his son.
 
339Razor
      ID: 41616415
      Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 02:23
If the man has more sympathy for his captors than his 'rescuers'

I would love to see evidence of this somewhere.
 
340sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 09:25
from 326: Strange Tree never considers the risk to the lives of the rescuers when he weighs the situation.

Thats OK, because American soldiers working to rescue Americans, are pretty much accepting of the inherent risks attending the mission they undertake.
For most, the ideal of "no man left behind", is genuine, sincere and worth the risk.
 
341Boldwin
      ID: 386359
      Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 10:15
Esprit de Corp involves the assumption you are on the same team.
 
342Tree
      ID: 261031
      Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 10:54
i'll say it again, and more and more, some of the more sinister aspects of Baldwin's belief system are becoming apparent.

1. it's not ok for the government to "kidnap" children from their parents. well, unless, of course, that parent doesn't follow Baldwin's core belief system, and is, for example, a communist and not an American citizen.

then it's ok for the U.S. government to take the child from his birth parent.

2. it's perfectly acceptable for the US government to allow kidnapped Americans to remain hostages with with "enemy combatants", and perhaps allow them to die, if those Americans don't follow Baldwin's core belief system.

you're a very scary man Baldwin, because it is more than obvious that you have little issue denying basic human rights (such as raising one's own child) if the don't believe as you do, and you have little issue possibly having an American citizen murdered if they don't believe as you do, and salute God and Country.
 
343Boldwin
      ID: 386359
      Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 23:49
What's scary is having the country's mindset shaped by people who hate this country. Like that reporter.
 
344Tree
      ID: 261031
      Sun, Jul 06, 2008, 01:00
What's scary is having the country's mindset shaped by people who hate this country. Like that reporter.

well, that's only if people don't want to think for themselves.

i realize people of your ilk eat whatever is fed to them by the Coulters, Hannitys, and Limbaughs of the world, and don't like to think for themselves.
 
345sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Jul 06, 2008, 01:37
"You're either with us, or against us." ...a line most recently touted by those American loving politicos responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 US soldiers...in the name of higher ROI for Haliburton stockholders.

Are THOSE the Americans you love Boldy??? Because THOSE, are the Americans I detest.
 
346Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Sun, Jul 06, 2008, 08:14
people who hate this country. Like that reporter.

What proof do you have of that? Sounds like he disagrees with a controversial policy of waterboarding and denial of due process for an Al Jazeera reporter.

So, in the world of the right wing ideologue, disagreement with a government policy equates to hate of country(even though Butler is British).

In that vein, we can conclude that Baldwin also hates this country, since there are a litany of government policies he despises, from DFS to the EPA.

We can also conclude that those who opposed Hitler's aggression hated Germany, those who opposed Pinochet's policies of torture and murder hated Chile and those who disagreed with Caesar's policies in Egypt hated Rome.

Further review from the link within Baldwin's link reveals that Butler wasn't rescued by Americans or even British, he was rescued by Iraqis, and not by design.

Butler, a British journalist kidnapped with his interpreter on Feb. 10, was rescued by Iraqi troops on April 14 when he was found with a sack over his head in a house in Basra.....

On the day he was found, he heard voices outside where he was staying that escalated into a gunfight. The door to his room was kicked in. A soldier aimed a gun at his head, but when the Iraqi army realized Butler was a Westerner he was taken away to a superior officer.

The Iraqi army wasn't out specifically looking for him, Butler said. They were looking for an arms cachet.


Anyone who's followed events should have known immediately that it wasn't American ground forces doing any rescuing in Basra in April, since the only American presence was in the form of air support, dropping bombs and firing missles into a dense urban area.

So, unless ther's some quote I missed, like Butler saying, "I hate America," the depiction of him as an America-hater can be chalked up to distortion and dishonesty. And that's what's scary.



 
347Tree
      ID: 261031
      Sun, Jul 06, 2008, 10:17
What's scary is having the country's mindset shaped by people who hate this country. Like that reporter.

the other reality of this post is that you are trying to slyly avoid my larger point made in 342.

i'll take your lack of denial of my points that they're all true?

let's face it - you are 100 percent in favor of "state-sponsored kidnapping" if the parent of the kidnapped child has a different core belief system than you do, and are 100 percent in favor of leaving hostages to possibly die if they do not believe the U.S. is a perfect place.

 
348Boldwin
      ID: 386359
      Sun, Jul 06, 2008, 22:49
That post was so bizzare it didn't deserve a reply. How could you possibly interpret anything I have ever posted as a threat to put your children somewhere they would be 'better off'?
 
349Tree
      ID: 261031
      Sun, Jul 06, 2008, 23:50
Baldwin - you made it pretty clear you would have no problem with the US Government preventing a communist father from raising his own child.

you've also made it clear you have no problem not attempting to rescue american citizens from their kidnappers, if those americans don't believe as you think they should.

those are points you made abundantley clear.

are you backing off those opinions now?
 
350Boldwin
      ID: 386359
      Mon, Jul 07, 2008, 18:28
Tree, do you even know anything about the Elian Gonzalez case?

Did you know he was only the illegitimate son of his father?

Did you know that the Florida Supreme Court [which you libs loved during Gores attempt to steal an election] has ruled that the father of illegitimate children don't even have the right to demand visitation?

Yes Tree, I also think that if the Californian kid turned Taliban, for example, was being 'held by the Taliban'...

A) I would question whether the whole thing wasn't just a publicity stunt...

B) If I was told that 'rescuing him' would very likely cost a casualty among the 'rescuers' I would lose no sleep leavin that one 'behind'.

Go away kid, yah bore me.
 
351sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Jul 07, 2008, 18:44
re B) above....frankly Boldwin. knowing full well that you would never participate in such a rescue effort, I personally could care less how much sleep YOU would lose over it. Nor do any of those who do perform those missions, give a what how much sleep you'd lose. They do it, because they believe it would be done for them, were they ones being held. They do it, because its their jobs. They do it, out of national pride. They DONT do it, so you can sleep better.
 
352Tree
      ID: 2860718
      Mon, Jul 07, 2008, 19:18
Tree, do you even know anything about the Elian Gonzalez case?

yea, obviously i do.

i also know that despite your best efforts to twist it, you're twisting in the wind with the reality that YOU FULLY SUPPORT REMOVING A CHILD FROM HIS BIRTH FATHER FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THE FATHER'S POLITICAL BELIEFS, despite the fact you attempt to preach otherwise.

Did you know he was only the illegitimate son of his father?

oh noooo...his parents weren't married!!!??!!?!?!?! holy crap, the world should stop spinning now.

more importantly, what are you trying to say? that YOU FULLY SUPPORT REMOVING A CHILD FROM HIS FATHER'S CUSTODY BECAUSE THE FATHER AND MOTHER WEREN'T MARRIED?

Did you know that the Florida Supreme Court has ruled that the father of illegitimate children don't even have the right to demand visitation?

i wasn't aware. if true, it's a $hitty law that should be struck down.

so, let me get this straight. you fully support removing a child from his father's custody, because:
a. of the father's religious beliefs
or
b. the father and mother weren't married.

you also fully support allowing American hostages to possibly die in the custody of their captors, again, because of political differences.

you're quite possibly the most anti-American person i've ever met. it's impressive how little regard you have for basic rights, and for the lives of your fellow americans.

not to mention how insulting you are to our military.





 
353Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 12:57
Commentary: Coverage of Obama trip almost embarrassing

When CNN says it, you know it's got to be bad.
 
354biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 13:22
Well, in contrast to flag-pins, at least health has some, small relevance to fitness for the executive office, so to speak. Particularly when his rival, when seen without makeup, looks like death warmed-over.

But I agree I would prefer coverage of his stances on the important issues, and reported on in-depth.
 
355Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 17:08
Tree

It's not like they were 'almost married'. They had been married, he left and they both moved on. The child was the result of a 'one last fling' well after the seperation.

I am for honoring the wishes of the mother who raised him and gave her life to give Elian freedom from life under Castro. Not those of the sperm donor who had nothing to do with his life. There is no reason to believe he would have become involved at all if not for Castro insisting on it for political purposes.

 
356Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 18:57
What I'm not for is going in with assault rifles, taking him from his loved ones and deporting him to a country he doesn't like.







Speaking both for Elian and the reporter.

 
357Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 20:05
A bombshell from Investor's Business Daily.
 
358Perm Dude
      ID: 266542419
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 20:54
Looks more like an example of "I don't quite have enough to prove my point, so I'll just stretch it, using outrage from my own extra biases to cover."

The editorial (not a news story, or a bombshell) takes the information from freelancers, not from the newsrooms. And why is that? According to the piece itself: That's because most major news organization have policies that forbid newsroom employees from making political donations.

Exactly. Which is why one can't draw the conclusion the editorialist is with the information at hand. We have to believe that a non-random sample of the donation patterns of some freelancers (including an up-front mention of Al Jazeera--nice), is an indication that the newsroom personnel (which are not-sampled) have a news bias.

How far away are we to get from the point before this all falls apart? Never, if you listen to some people. Any connection, however tenous, feeds into this thought process.

I bet if you sample truck drivers for the New York Times who live in Staten Island, you'd find an overwhelming percentage that vote Republican. Does this prove anything? Of course not. Even knowing that these people deliver the "news" to hundreds of thousands of people a day.
 
359Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 05:25
So what's your theory, PD? The poor liberal reporter is driven to freelancing because the mean ole conservatives in the press room won't let them into the club?

I hope you never stop defending your ridiculous position in this thread, PD. The glow from it's ass-backwardness illuminates everything else you post so nicely.
 
360Perm Dude
      ID: 266542419
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 09:37
What, exactly, is my "position" that you believe that you need to be against. My #358 offered no theory, Baldwin. Just pointing out that the writer of that editorial can't prove what he thinks he is proving with the data he presents.

Now, you might think that insisting upon some kind of standards of logic and proof is ass-backwards. Given your own bias in this thread that is no surprise. But offering up the conclusion first, then shoring it up with crappy and mismatched facts just isn't going to do it for me. Obviously it works for you, and such thinking got you the current Administration.
 
361boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 09:54
Actually PD you did offer a theory. Your theory states that the data does not use a true sample of the "media" but instead only represents the response of "freelance" journalists. The article should read that freelance journalist donate more to the democratic party than to the republican party. the question is can you make assumption that freelance journalists are representative of all journalists and even you can not it does show that sub population of journalist favor democrats.
 
362Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 10:21
The article's headline indicates a donation bias of 100-1, but you have to get all the way through the article to realize that to arrive at the 100-1 figure, instead of the more accurate 14-1 number, the author subtracts out two Republicans. LOL. Terrible.
 
363Perm Dude
      ID: 266542419
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 10:29
Well, I suppose that's true, although I pointed out that the freelancer sample doesn't appear to be representative.

After thinking about it, I don't know that the writer is actually trying to prove anything, however. I think they are just trying to demonstrate the effect of a bias already assumed. Kind of like "look what happens when you have media bias" rather than "this is more proof that bias exists." This argument might even fly, I think, if he was upfront about it.

I dunno. Part of the problem here is that the supposition is just so ethereal, and those who lay the claim aren't being all that clear. How would bias manifest itself? In what areas? Among editorial pages of major newspapers only? In TV minutes devoted to certain stories? How about when reporters are reporting about the players in a story rather than the actual story? I get the feeling that many who claim bias have already decided what they want to "prove" and will cherry-pick the "proof" from among a number of ill-defined areas to do so.

But soft facts make for soft proof. If any.
 
364biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 10:38
I don't think it's all remarkable that those more knowledgeable and inquisitive Americans who choose the profession of journalism might come to favor the party which, on balance, has America's better interests at heart.
 
365boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 11:28
which party has America's better interests at heart. Is an unprovable statement.
 
366Perm Dude
      ID: 266542419
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 11:32
As is the claim of bias, and its corollary, that this, if true, is a bad thing.
 
367boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 12:34
the fact that a bias exists or doesn't exists does not have corollary of it is a bad thing. i would say the more appropriate statement would be if bias exists the corollary would be how do you adjust for it. For example you know fox news leans to right so you can adjust for that fact. while if you watch other media outlets you do not know if the biased or not and there for can not adjust for this fact.
 
368Perm Dude
      ID: 266542419
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 12:56
The implication that there is both a liberal media bias and that this bias is a bad thing runs a strong course through conservatives in this country.
 
369Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 13:40
The implication that there is both a liberal media bias and that this bias is a bad thing runs a strong course through conservatives in this country...

...to the point where many choose to ignore it competely or accept lesser sources and are all the more ignorant for it.

Look at Boldwin. Smart guy that almost never cites a legitimate source.
 
370Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 14:03
Look at liberals. If they disagree with a source it becomes illegitimate. Which narrows down what I can cite quite a bit.
 
371sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 15:45
AC and WND are not deemed "illegit" strictly by liberals. They ARE illegit in point of fact.
 
372Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 19:00
BS Sarge. Only one half of the spectrum feels that way.

And anyone on the left with the intelligence to understand that just because WND links to a newspaper, doesn't make WND the source of the newspaper article, well they are intelligent enuff to credit the story as well and not automatically discount it.

The way some liberals think about WND, I could use the same logic to discredit anything google links to because they are a bunch of liberals. How stupid Sarge's logic...pathetic.
 
373sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 19:25
BS Boldy. I cant even name 30 people who take what AC has to say...seriously. MOST, view her for what she is...a shrew who makes her living by making gross distortions for the comedic pleasure of her audience. What YOU dont understand, is that she is supposed to be taken seriously.

WND...has been demonstrated and proven repeatedly, to have originated stories which were utter BS. That fact, costs them any claim to legitamacy.
 
374sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 19:26
..she is NOT supposed to be taken seriously...

damn failure to proof read,...again
 
375Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 19:30
It's 95% links to newspapers you moron. That's what their page one and page two are.
 
376Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 19:35
How do you disprove a clipping service. *roll* So stupid.
 
377Texas Flood
      ID: 39642419
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 20:12
Should we take Keith Olberman seriously Sarge? Talk about you're
run of the mill ass clowns!
 
378sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 20:39
good gawd Boldy..we all know what WND is.

Olberman is questionable TF. I happen to like him, but he's really an editorializer more than a journalist. He speaks his opinion and as such, its editorial content more than reporting.
 
379Perm Dude
      ID: 266542419
      Fri, Jul 25, 2008, 21:33
I think it is clear what the problem is: The confusion, intentional or not, by calling partisan blowhards as being part of the "media." Seriously--why would anyone with half a brain, on any part of the "spectrum," us arguments about Coulter, Olberman, or anyone who clearly aren't journalists as an example of journalistic bias?

"I'll see your ass-clown with two of my own, dammit! That'll balance things out!"

 
380Razor
      ID: 3602518
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 01:13
Boldwin, this argument is absurd. It doesn't take more than 3 seconds on WND to see that at least half of their links are to their own content. Give it a rest already. WND sucks.
 
381Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 02:43
While some people are more rigorous than others, Razor didn't exactly pass the 'bare minimum' test on that point.

Discounting advertisements, polls, one item detailing the death in the family of someone conservatives care about, and one item crowing about a news scoop WND had made a year ago, here is the actual tally of sources on the first two pages, the real heart of WND that people go there daily for.

I was a little surprised how much of their own content they push to the head of the line which may account for Razor's mistaken impression...

Page one:

In house reports: 15 --- newspaper clippings: 17

Page two:

In house reports: 0 --- newspaper clippings: 21

To claim WND is just conservative editorial and in house reporting is quite inaccurate. That would be like throwing out the NYT as a newspaper because they have an editorial page. I will of course continue to discout the NYT because their regular reporting is more biased than WND's editorial section and forums are.

To claim as I do that WND is first and foremost a newspaper clipping service for those who don't want to miss the news that manages to escape the liberal MSM bias is the accurate truth.
 
382Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 02:47
And for anyone with an open mind you know who delivers the most devastating body punches to the liberal mindset by who they disparage the most.

Clearly the winners are WND, Ann Coulter and Free Republic...their call, not mine.
 
383sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 08:25
lol And just what exactly would you know about an "open mind"?
 
384Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 12:09
I can actually read a NYT piece and ferret out the useful info from the dreck. The libs around here read AC or WND and their brains freeze solid.
 
385Perm Dude
      ID: 266542419
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 12:36
I will of course continue to discout the NYT because their regular reporting is more biased than WND's editorial section and forums are.

So the NYT reporting on, say, gas prices, and so on are more biased that WMD editorials (i.e., things that are designed to be biased)?
 
386sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 14:26
Dont think thats entirely accurate Boldwin. Not too many of us 'read' either AC or WND. Nothing there TO read for the most part. "Onion" is as accurate, and FAR more entertaining.
 
387Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 17:02
Not too many of us 'read' either AC or WND

How can you? Your brain freezes.
 
388Perm Dude
      ID: 126252614
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 17:37
I think it is because it isn't necessary for us to read them. Really--why should we? According to you, Ann Coulter writes satire. WND is factually questionable (surely you recall their column which took a story from The Onion as fact?).

It isn't a matter of "brain freeze" so much as quality. Neither Ann Coulter (who writes intentionally over-the-top opinion columns), nor WND (who make no claim to deliver unbiased information, whether as a "news" item or outright editorial) delivery quality information.

 
389sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 18:23
Using the periods after their sentences though, does make for entertaining "connect the dots" excercises by my grandkids.
 
390Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 20:08
And yet still the paper that invented factoids and introduced us to Jason Blair remains the 'gold standard' eh? It is to laff. I'll take WND any day and twice on Sunday.
 
391Perm Dude
      ID: 126252614
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 20:16
Of course you will. You live on the hate. Just stop expecting us to have the same tolerance for crap that you do.
 
392Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 21:54
What do you call Jason Blair's reports?
 
393Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 21:54
Bet you had no problems with Dan Rather either...stop me, this is too easy.
 
394sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 22:37
2 reporters out of ??????? I dunno, how many tens of thousands across the country?
 
395Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 05:47
The NYT had a culture that produced Blair and factoids.

CBS had a culture that moved a Dan Rather to the top.
 
396Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 07:42
It's laughable that the article from IBD gets dismissed given the dramatic reported disparities of political contribution. It really shows a total lack of objectivity. This thread has example after example but is dismissed by trolls like Sarge and once decent posters descended into trolldom like PD.
 
397sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 11:18
an unscientific sampling of a minority portion of the possible population, and you cant understand why it is given the weight of condemnation? Are jag and box, really the same person?
 
398Perm Dude
      ID: 206482711
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 12:48
#396: Maybe you didn't see my rebuttal, in #358?
 
399Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 12:50
I thought Boldwin adequately addressed it. I will reiterate a point from the article, Let me repeat: $315,533 to Democrats, $3,150 to Republicans — a ratio of 100-to-1. No bias there..
 
400Perm Dude
      ID: 206482711
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 12:56
*throws his hands up*

Well, there you go. If "lalalalala" is all we'll hear from you on this point, then we're done. Congratulations: You're "proven" bias among a non-representative sample of some freelancer writers. I guess you'll take what you can, at this point.
 
401sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 15:36
bias, or proof that those with logical mental faculties, favor Dems over Reps 100:1. So there.
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 20:37
So you are saying you accept that study as proof. Tell it to PD.
 
403sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 22:12
not at all. I'm saying either conclusion is false. The study (if it can even be called that) is irrelevant in that it is flawed.
 
404sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 23:04
Let me cite another flawed survey as to why I say that Boldwin:

In post 219 of the this thread:

thread

PD provides 3 links. The 3rd, to Allahpundit . Below that article, are reader comments. This one:



I like the ad…..and I also wonder why he didn’t let that General behind also. He hasn’t given a good explanation for that at all.

I saw a Fox poll that 63% feel his trip didn’t help him at all. Plus, many, many people feel he is too arrogant and they are turned off by it. That may well be his undoing.

becki51758 on July 26, 2008 at 6:16 PM


purports to cite a FOX poll claiming 63% of the repsondents dont think Obama's trip was at all beneficial to his campaign.

Who did FOX poll? Their viewers/readers? That would mean, that 63% of Republicans dont think the trip helped Obama. So what? They werent going to vote Obama anyway, so honestly, what possible difference does it make? More telling, is that 1 in 3 DID believe it helpful.

So cite your flawed *cough* evidence, maintain your head-in-the-sand endorsement of a tired and failing approach, and then lament much as I did when Bush was re-elected, when Obama is elected.
 
405boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 09:23
Sarge are declaring the FOX poll as flawed. if CNN had release the same poll would you except it as fact? Or are you assuming its flawed because a) fox is biased and no poll from them means anything. Or, b) that you disagree with the poll there for it must be wrong. much like Bush stole the '00 election because to you it was impossible for you except the fact that he won. And what does your post even have to do with Boldwins study?
 
406Perm Dude
      ID: 53657288
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 10:01
That's a bit speculative, boikin.

Meanwhile, network TV news has been harder on Obama than McCain since the general election started.
 
407sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 11:29
re 405...he didnt win. It was gifted to him
 
408boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 13:56
re 406, that seems pretty accurate. the only thing i did not see in the report, was are the candidates getting equal coverage in time? From personal experience it seems like Obama gets more and stories related to him usually go before McCain, but is this reality. If true this is just as much a bias as positive and negative.
 
409CanadianHack
      ID: 21937272
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 02:23
CBS shows a right wing bias.
 
410Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 06:28
The awakening would have happened during an Obama cut-n-run? Does anyone have a start date for the surge and a start date for the awakening? I wasn't even aware such could be established.
 
411CanadianHack
      ID: 31645103
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 06:51
Awakening movements have been active in Iraq since 2005. The "surge" began in early 2007.
 
412boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 09:19
I am not sure where that wiki site got its facts from if you actually read the article it sites for the 2005 date, you will see first off they were written in 2007 and one does not mention anything before summer of 2007. the second article does say that talks between the government and Iraqi's did begin in 2005 but they really had not structure till at least mid to late 2006. still before the surge but not nearly huge mistake the article in 409 would make it out to be and secondly based on the second article it says that towns were safe for American soldiers to walk down, which if i remember correctly is what McCain got called out on before. McCain makes allot of mistakes but getting called on out on something that you can not even find clear facts of with the help of the Internet, that he is answering off the top of head, is pretty weak.
 
413CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 10:10
The question is not did McCain make a mistake. The question is did CBS show their right wing bias by covering it up.
 
414boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 10:39
i think it shows incompetency on there part. they should not reedit interviews in that fashion. though i do not think that this shows biasness, i think CBS would love to show that mccain made a mistake, but in reality i am sure the editors had no idea of what he was saying was true or false and probably did not care.
 
415Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 14:05
It shows more than incompetency for them to take part of an answer from an another question and splice it with part of an answer from the appropriate question to piece together an answer that portrays McCain in positive light.
 
416sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 14:09
It would show 'deliberate deception', would it not?
 
417Perm Dude
      ID: 12614299
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 14:44
That's only when the bias seems to help the Democrats, sarge. Otherwise, it is a "pervasive innocent mistake."
 
418boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 14:51
if you actually read the transcript all they did was cut part of his answer. what the website calls Q3 is actually Mccains answer to Q1 and what they call the answer to Q3 is the rest of his answer to Q1. This is a total sham. maybe the crooksandliars.com might want to proof read their stories as well. I do not know if CBS intent was a 'deliberate deception' but the source would appear that it was attempting a 'deliberate deception'.
 
419boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 11:18
At this point, denying that the press has a liberal tilt, particularly on social issues, is like denying that the universities have one. Surveys of reporters show that they have more liberal views than the public; surveys of the public show that readers and viewers pick up on it.



Time commentary on media bias

 
420CanadianHack
      ID: 21937272
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 13:56
Wow Boikin!

You found a right wing member of the media who claims there is a left wing bias. Does that prove anything?

Here is the wikipedia page on Ramesh Ponnoru, your right wing media member whining about left wing bias.

The fact he exists and gets published in a maganzine as mainstream as Time Magazine sure argues against that thesis.
 
421boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 14:11
I knew i did not like it when TIME changed over there editorial staff, oh well. I figured as much but i found the article interesting, i probably should have posted this quote instead.

Obama is on more magazine covers in part, they note, because those issues sell better than McCain covers.

Do you disagree with this statement? Do you disagree because he is not on more covers than McCain or because they Don't sell better. Because if you agree that he is on more covers for what ever the reason, by definition is a bias.
 
422Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 17:44
Because if you agree that he is on more covers for what ever the reason, by definition is a bias.

Ah, no. If Sen. Obama covers sell more copies, that's an economic decision, not a bias.
 
423sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 17:51
Bias toward increased profitability, ROI and higher yields for the investors/shareholders and the like. Isn't that the basic ideal of "free enterprise"?
 
424boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 16:56
Ah, no. If Sen. Obama covers sell more copies, that's an economic decision, not a bias.

Bias toward increased profitability, ROI and higher yields for the investors/shareholders and the like. Isn't that the basic ideal of "free enterprise"?


I completely agree with you both they are making an economic decision, which is what i was trying to point out. The problem is that the reporting of the news is suppose to be unbiased and balanced then making decisions based on economics goes completely against this idea. You have introduced a bias into your news reporting by reporting what will sell more copies.
 
425Tree
      ID: 38720720
      Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 21:25
what is on the cover is not necessarily related to what is in the reporting. obama on more covers does not equal biased reporting, at all.

there is a VERY keen difference.
 
426boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 08:46
Acctually it does, from your logic if the story is on the front page of paper it is the same as being on the second page of paper, which we all know is not true. Its the same reason the commercials in the first half of the Superbowl cost more than commercials in the second half of the Superbowl. The reporting maybe unbiased but if no one sees it doesn't matter you have biased yourself through access.
 
427sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 08:59
untrue...if the consumer chooses to bias themselves, that is not the reporters fault, it is not the editors fault and it is not the publishers fault. It is the consumer, practicing their right of selective choices(s). (ala Boldy and WND, AC, FOX, etc etc)
 
428Perm Dude
      ID: 397487
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 09:07
Cover choices are based upon marketing decisions, not editorial ones. Let's not mix up the different types of bias.
 
429boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 09:32
Cover choices are based upon marketing decisions, not editorial ones. Let's not mix up the different types of bias. the problem is that they are interconnected. Fox news made a marketing decision to be conservatively biased. If marketing makes decision is to always put McCain stories on the front page it can claim that its coverage is unbiased.
 
430Perm Dude
      ID: 397487
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 09:40
But there is no evidence that is the case. You're arguing backwards, that the organization is biased and so the cover decision reflects their bias, but there is no evidence that this is actually happening.

All we can say for sure is that cover decisions tend to be marketing (i.e., sales) driven. If you have some evidence that a cover is being used despite likely poorer sales as a result, then you've got some evidence. Otherwise you are claiming sales decisions as evidence of editorial bias.
 
431boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 10:03
By that argument PD Fox news is not biased because they choose to show news that has increased there market share of viewers. If I further continued your arguement that poorer sales would be evidence of bias then CNN, MSNBC,... and such must be biased because they have not made the same market decisions as fox and lost market share. But that is not my point, my point is that even if you are fare a balanced in reporting the stories, the way in which the stories are presented, order, covers, printing,... can still make the media bias.
 
432Perm Dude
      ID: 397487
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 10:11
I never said they were biased in that way, boikin. FOX is biased because of the spin they put on their stories.

When I spoke about the different types of bias, I should have been more clear: Marketing is a kind of bias, but it isn't even in the same realm as editorial bias. Marketing bias involves the presentation of things in order to stir commerce. It isn't the same (and is disconnected) from the kind of bias that conservatives harp on about (which is about argument persuasiveness).
 
433boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 10:46
Marketing bias involves the presentation of things in order to stir commerce. It isn't the same (and is disconnected) from the kind of bias that conservatives harp on about (which is about argument persuasiveness). so your arguement is that because a bias is not content driven but marketing driven, it does not matter? that is not arguement,I think the title of the thread is Is There Really Liberal Media Bias? not is there and an argument persuasiveness journalistic reporting bias.
 
434Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 11:02
boikin -

i worked in the newspaper business. in my current job, i am responsible for publishing a monthly sales catalog.

in both cases, what was on the "top of the fold" (in the case of the newspaper), or what is on the front cover (in the case of the magazine), is much more marketing related than editorial, particularly in the case of the magazine.

writing for small town weekly newspapers, SURE you wanted to have something newsworthy leading the way. but the fact of the matter is that you want a story that's going to sell more newspapers, and a feature story on a local guy who is helping wheel-chair bound kids learn how to sail is going to sell more copies of a local paper than some accident on Route 6 that killed an out of town salesman.

for the catalog i publish, we want a title on our cover that is going to encourage people to open the book up and look at more titles. it's that simple.

your arguments are so off-base, and honestly come across as simplistic and ill-informed. as PD pointed out, there is a striking difference between marketingbias, and editorial bias.

the whole point of marketing *IS* to be biased. it is to persuade people to pick up your product. And if more people are going to pick up your product because Barack Obama is on the cover of the magazine, then you are going to put him on the cover.

and, as Sarge pointed out, you are also confusing the bias of the CONSUMER with the bias of the PUBLISHER.

it is the consumer's bias that is causing Obama to be on more covers, not the publisher's bias that is caushing them to PUT Obama on the cover.
 
435boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 12:10
in both cases, what was on the "top of the fold" (in the case of the newspaper), or what is on the front cover (in the case of the magazine), is much more marketing related than editorial, particularly in the case of the magazine.

not relevant see other posts as to why they are both part of media.

the whole point of marketing *IS* to be biased. it is to persuade people to pick up your product. And if more people are going to pick up your product because Barack Obama is on the cover of the magazine, then you are going to put him on the cover.

and, as Sarge pointed out, you are also confusing the bias of the CONSUMER with the bias of the PUBLISHER.

it is the consumer's bias that is causing Obama to be on more covers, not the publisher's bias that is caushing them to PUT Obama on the cover.


wrong, just as i pointed out before that is like saying fox news is not biased because the customer wants there style of journalism, so if you give them want you want you are unbiased.

your arguments are so off-base, and honestly come across as simplistic and ill-informed. as PD pointed out, there is a striking difference between marketingbias, and editorial bias.

so what you are saying is that there is not psychological response to seeing how magazine is marketing, that it does not not bias the public if more covers have Obama on them? an article with the pictures with of dead babies around it will elicit the same psychological response to that article as if had pictures of flowers around it? I am not saying that there necessarily an intentional bias, but the fact is that marketing layout can be biased. I think you are the one's who are being simplistic because you think that somehow they are independent. I do not know how many countless times it has been stated this storied got buried as being and example of bias but now all of sudden oh location, marketing of story does not bias it? I guess from now on when someone complains that some story is not being reported on as an example of media bias i can just respond well i guess marketing did not think the customers wanted to read it so its marketing's fault for giving the customers what they wanted.
 
436Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 13:11
wrong, just as i pointed out before that is like saying fox news is not biased because the customer wants there style of journalism, so if you give them want you want you are unbiased.

just because you pointed out does not make it right. you are completely wrong, and you have it backwards. you are comparing a style and SLANT of news reporting, against what is on a magazine cover.

you might as well be saying "i prefer to eat shrimp covered in lots of butter, however Twas brillig, and the slithy toves, Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe," because that is honestly about as much sense as you, or your argument here, is making.

so what you are saying is that there is not psychological response to seeing how magazine is marketing, that it does not not bias the public if more covers have Obama on them?

of course there is, but you're arguing against your own point. this, again, is bias BY the public, not bias TO the public.

if the magazines were CONSPIRING WITH EACH OTHER to put out more covers with Obama, then you might have an argument.

but, the magazines are, generally speaking, individually putting Obama on the cover, and the only bias there is to the almighty dollar.
 
437boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 14:40
I think you are missing my point, if media outlets are in fact unbiased then you can not be choosing covers based on sales.

I guess from now on when someone complains that some story is not being reported on as an example of media bias i can just respond well i guess marketing did not think the customers wanted to read it so its marketing's fault for giving the customers what they wanted.

you still have not responded to this question.

just because you pointed out does not make it right. you are completely wrong, and you have it backwards. you are comparing a style and SLANT of news reporting, against what is on a magazine cover.

i never said i was right i just did not want to type it out again and yes i am comparing the two because they are both forms of bias.

To clear things up if i understand you correctly, Fox is biased because they report stories in away that favors conservatives (style and slant). And magazines put Obama on covers of magazines because it will sell more issues and this is not a form media bias because this is what the public wants (bias by the public)? Assuming i interpreted you correctly. I now content that there is no difference between the two using your logic on bias by the public. FOX reports its stories in way that will generate more viewers (fact they are the # cable news channel), therefore by your logic they are not biased because the public is choosing to want to have there news presented in that way. they are merely bias to the almighty dollar and not biased to the public

Just to clarify something this is not what i am arguing i am just using your argument to show you where you are wrong

I have just a few simple question for you then. Am I being bias if I only publish good news stories in the paper because they sell better? Does my resulting publication influence peoples view of the world. if other papers pick up on this and starting doing the same, no CONSPIRING WITH EACH OTHER just based on economics, are they now effecting a larger audience? now if i understand you correctly these are fair and unbiased news sources, yes? And even if this is actually a case of bias BY the public would these papers not be biased TO the public by not reporting news that is negative in nature?

 
438sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 14:49
your premise boikin, is wrong and thus your extension of logic is wrong.

SOMETHING has to be on the cover. WHAT or WHO, is a merketing decision, not an editorial decision. Specific content, is an editorial decision.

The argument the Right puts forward, is that the CONTENT of MSM is biased. Fox, likes to use younger female commentators in semi-revelaing attire. So too does Playboy and Penthouse on their covers. To use your logic that the covers dictate the content bias, you would have to conclude that FOX = Playboy = Penthouse in their content. Is that what you are trying to say? That Fox = softcore porn for the right? :)
 
439boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 15:04
sarge read post 433. I am not making the that arguement and could care less, i am pointing out that you can be biased regardless of content. Also editorial boards do influence what goes on the cover of a magazine, at least with TIME they do and they often talk about choosing which story to put on the cover and what picture to use.
 
440sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 15:44
based on projected sales, not to put forth an agenda. Since the motivation isnt there to present a biased report, your argument is moot.

My contention in 438 is obviously absurdly flawed. No more so however, than yours throughout this mini-debate.
 
441Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 15:58
you still have not responded to this question.

i'm failing to see any question you're referring to.

To clear things up if i understand you correctly, Fox is biased because they report stories in away that favors conservatives (style and slant). And magazines put Obama on covers of magazines because it will sell more issues and this is not a form media bias because this is what the public wants (bias by the public)? Assuming i interpreted you correctly. I now content that there is no difference between the two using your logic on bias by the public. FOX reports its stories in way that will generate more viewers (fact they are the # cable news channel), therefore by your logic they are not biased because the public is choosing to want to have there news presented in that way. they are merely bias to the almighty dollar and not biased to the public.

you have interpreted the premise correctly, but not the ideas behind it. honestly - and i'm not trying to be a jerk here - it appears as if the depth might be too much for you.

it reminds me of the logic of my girlfriend's 6-year-old.

"but mommy, you can't be divorced, because divorced people can't have children."

"well, your daddy and i are divorced, but we had you before we were divorced."

"but you can't have me, because you're divorced."

"we already had you. it was before the divorced."

"but now you're divorced, so you can't have me. what if i disappear one day because of that?"

in his 6 year old mind, it makes sense.

and that's what this conversation feels like. you are repeating exactly what is being said, as if you understand it, and then all of a sudden, you veer off the road and take on a completely unrelated argument, as if proof of the opposing point is actually proof of your point, when it is the exact contrary to your point.
 
442Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 16:25
boikin - would you argue that accurate reporting, which increases readership, is a form of bias? You seem to be linking the effects but ignoring that the causes are different.
 
443boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 16:32
this is the question:

Is not reporting a story because you do not think anyone will read it media bias? and if it is not then complaining that it did not get more attention as display of media bias is unfounded.

Tree would please explain the ideas behind it. Because honestly you remind me of my friends who try and argue evolution with me till i tell them that i have actually read the Origin of Species. You have failed to make a valid arguement you just say oh i am wrong, oh i am not not smart enough to understand. I do not mind being wrong if you show me were i am wrong but just telling me i am wrong does nothing. how can learn anything how could counter that?

and while your at it answer these questions:

I have just a few simple question for you then. Am I being bias if I only publish good news stories in the paper because they sell better? Does my resulting publication influence peoples view of the world. if other papers pick up on this and starting doing the same, no CONSPIRING WITH EACH OTHER just based on economics, are they now effecting a larger audience? now if i understand you correctly these are fair and unbiased news sources, yes? And even if this is actually a case of bias BY the public would these papers not be biased TO the public by not reporting news that is negative in nature?
 
444boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 16:39
Razor, i am not saying the causes are necessarily the same and if you read earlier, i even state that effects can happen unintentionally.

would you argue that accurate reporting, which increases readership, is a form of bias? no
 
445Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 17:12
Is not reporting a story because you do not think anyone will read it media bias?

frack. nice double negative action going on there. in fact, i'm not even sure what you're asking, but i'll try to answer.

you cannot report every single story out there. daily newspapers would be phone book thick, at a minimum. you have to make some editorial decisions in mind, which include everything from dropping a story to editing out parapgraphs.

if you're going to drop a story, the most unbiased thing to do is to drop the one you think is the least newsworthy.

and boikin - just because you've read a book doesn't really make you smart. i'm not saying you're not smart. i mean, i've read books by Umberto Eco and finished them feeling like my brain had just been pulverized by an atom smasher.

reading is good. but it doesn't mean you're smart.
 
446boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 17:31
Actually i do not believe that it was a double negative since they are in reference to different subjects, but anyways. i agree with if you're going to drop a story, the most unbiased thing to do is to drop the one you think is the least newsworthy., the problem is that is probably not what happens, if this were true you would not see paris hilton making headlines. But going back to my point if you are making decisions on which articles to publish/air and you are basing these decisions on what you think the audience wants, then you are a biased source.

now do you have any in site on the last questions i posted earlier.

As for the reading of books comment it was not to show that i was smart, it was to show that if I am going to debate something it is usually something i spent some time learning about.
 
447Tree
      ID: 3977819
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 20:23
the problem is that is probably not what happens, if this were true you would not see paris hilton making headlines.

1. so you're basing your argument now what is a guess?

2. Paris Hilton *IS* news. The Republican Candidate for President used her in a MAJOR attack ad against his rival.

But going back to my point if you are making decisions on which articles to publish/air and you are basing these decisions on what you think the audience wants, then you are a biased source.

exactly. Editorially. but marketing - which is the cover of a magazine - is an entirely different animal, and you're either unwilling, or unable, to grasp that concept.

now do you have any in site on the last questions i posted earlier.

which questions are these?
 
448azdbacker
      ID: 14713820
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 02:12
Tree -

You've worked in news. I have also. Can you say with a straight face that most of the newsroom is not left-leaning? Can you honestly say that that doesn't ever show up in their decision making? Have you seen the polls on how the media vote in presidential elections vs the public? How they would have elected Dukakis in a landslide?

If you went to J-School, were not at least 80% of your classmates dyed-in-the-wool liberals? Was it not the same with your professors? Did they not impress upon their students that it was their job to report problems with government in a way that would cause people to want increased government intervention?

I did both and I'm sure you know my answers to all of those questions.

On the other hand, I also found that nearly everyone I've worked with tried to be fair-minded. They just don't often think to ask the questions that frame the story that someone from the other side would ask because they aren't ideologically programmed to think that way.

I won Arizona's Press Club Scholarship for top student journalist in 2005 (while on a community college paper), for what I thought was some very average work (given my ability). I just asked questions that none of my colleagues would ever have thought to ask. And they thought I was groundbreaking. And then they booed me when the MC referred to me as the next Sean Hannity/Rush Limbaugh. (Please, God, if only you could make that come true.)
 
449azdbacker
      ID: 14713820
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 02:19
One other point. Tree is correct that most decision above-the-fold (but not all) are based on what they expect will be important to their readers.

What he doesn't point out, is that what is known to be effective on readers is the common thing you see in your local papers everyday: What's the problem, how does it affect you, how can government fix it.

The point is that by this model everything is focused on a greater role of government in your lives.

Problem: Home foreclosures high. Why do I care: You might lose your home. Solution: Government bailout of homeowners.

Problem: High gas prices. Why do I care: I'm losing money to inflation. Solution: (Since government can't drill for oil) price caps, "windfall profit" tax, etc.

Problem: Illegal immigrants keep killing people in Phoenix. Why do I care: You don't, you've been shot already. Solution: Legalize them.
 
450Tree
      ID: 87998
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 09:23
You've worked in news. I have also. Can you say with a straight face that most of the newsroom is not left-leaning? Can you honestly say that that doesn't ever show up in their decision making? Have you seen the polls on how the media vote in presidential elections vs the public? How they would have elected Dukakis in a landslide?

what's your point? being that most of the media centers in this country are big cities, and most big cities tend to have higher educated, more left-leaning folks, it shouldn't come as any surprise that the news media is, individually, left leaning.

If you went to J-School, were not at least 80% of your classmates dyed-in-the-wool liberals?

J-School is for people who don't know how to write. being someone who actually can write, i stayed as far away as i could from J-School.

no offense intended, of course. :o)

Was it not the same with your professors?

again, it has to do with demographics. universities, in general, lean left.

On the other hand, I also found that nearly everyone I've worked with tried to be fair-minded. They just don't often think to ask the questions that frame the story that someone from the other side would ask because they aren't ideologically programmed to think that way.

and that is the larger point. most people on the right point to background as belief that the MSM is liberal in their reporting. you just refusted that. there is not an intentional bias.

as for your post 449, a lot of it is nonsense, and it shows YOUR anti-government and right-leaning biases. the fact of the matter is that our government is weaved into the fiber of our lives, for better or for worse.
 
451azdbacker
      ID: 14713820
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:32
there is not an intentional bias.

I agree, that was my point.

But there still is a bias.
 
452Tree
      ID: 58737912
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:43
you can find bias in nearly anything if you look hard enough.

there's nothing wrong with bias. between this thread, and the Coulter thread, i think you stand to make a lot of money in the world conservative writing/radio/etc, because you have the system down pat.

change your argument. twist words. be mean, insulting, and offensive. but ultimately, not say a heckuva lot worth much of anything, except for the dollars it brings in.

you've honed your craft well, and you could make some money doing it.

PT Barnum *nailed* your audience.
 
453azdbacker
      ID: 14713820
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:27
While I disagree with the tenor of your last message, Tree, I do hope you are correct with the outcome.

And I never said bias was bad. That's for supporters of the Fairness Doctrine to do. It can, and should, be recognized.
 
454Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 16:01
azdbacker

Someone who spends as much time as you in the Conservatiev Blogosphere, I'm sure the MSM looks "liberal". It certainly is to the left of your territory.

Spend sometime in the beautiful liberal country such as Seattle and you'll find just as many people adamantly arguing that Corporate Media is far too conservative. From their vantage point, MSM is off somewhere way to the right.

I reluctantly watch ABC/CBS/NBC national newscasts as well as eagerly watch The News Hour with Jim Lahr and I will never agree with the notion that the networks have a liberal bias. Particularly ABC, which cannot get enough God, Guns, and Small Town America stories. Compare the way ABC covers anything that happens in the world to BBC news and I'm afraid to say that not only will ABC news be severe conservative apologists, they will often miss the point if it happens outside of the US borders.

I really prefer the depth and tone of coverage The News Hour utilizes. Is there a conservative equivalent? Why not? Why does conservative media have to be so confrontational? So Mclaughlin Group? Are conservatives incapable of producing news without biting opinion woven into every thread?
 
455azdbacker
      ID: 14713820
      Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 16:40
News Hour is definitely solid. I think Shep Smith and Brit Hume do a pretty decent job on the right for mostly-straight news coverage. And the Beltway Boys very civilly discuss the issues as well.

But much of your last paragraph is admittedly true. I personally like shows that have an opinion, as long as they are straight-up about it.
 
456Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 03:52
AZD

Somewhere here I rated AC among the top two or three conservative pundits along with Mark Stein and Victor Davis Hanson. Since you rated the blogs I'd be curious to see how you rate the pundits.
 
457azdbacker
      ID: 14713820
      Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 04:03
Steyn rules. I'm not very familiar with VDH. Krauthammer (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) is high atop my list. As are Coulter, Thomas Sowell and Hugh Hewitt.

Perhaps that will be my next project. I'd have to do a ton of research to come close to covering it well though, and it wouldn't add much to my traffic because none of them link to people who talk about them. Thanks for the idea, though - I'm sure I will get around to it some day.
 
458Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, Aug 11, 2008, 06:03
Edwards affair: Was media part of a 'conspiracy of silence'?

"I was taught when I was a young reporter that it's news when we say it is. I think that's still true -- it's news when 'we' say it is. It's just who 'we' is has changed," Carr said.

"Members of the public, people with modems, people with cell phones are now producers, editors. They can push and push and push on a story until it ends up being acknowledged by everyone."


Conspiratorial Thought Of The Day: If the Edwards story broke when it should have broke, IIRC, it was right around Obama's trip to Europe. It would have erased most or at least a good deal of the coverage surrounding his trip. Now it's running during a portion of the season where no one is really paying attention especially because of the Olympics and the conflict in Georgia.
 
459Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 07:44
Obama Stories Should Come With Hip Boots
By L. BRENT BOZELL | Posted Monday, August 25, 2008


When Sen. John Kerry arrived in Boston for the last Democratic convention, the TV news stars thought they'd died and gone to political heaven.

Dan Rather said Kerry's speech drove the crowd in Boston into "a 3,000-gallon attack about every three minutes," and Newsweek's Jon Meacham was comparing Kerry to Abraham Lincoln on MSNBC.

If media liberals can get that excited over Kerry, viewers may have to worry about the anchors lapsing into diabetic comas over Barack Obama's ascension convention in Denver.

It's easy to forget just how "tick tight," as Rather once put it, the primary race was between Obama and Hillary Clinton. It ended up with a vote gap of just one-tenth of a percentage point. The real difference maker in the 2008 race was the Obama favoritism of the national media, led by the television networks. It was his margin of victory.

Rich Noyes of the Media Research Center spent weeks crunching numbers from an exhaustive study of ABC, CBS and NBC coverage of Barack Obama, from his first network sound bite in 2000 through the end of the primaries, a study of more than 1,300 stories. "Coverage" is too bland a word. "Anointing" might be more appropriate.

Obama received his best press when it mattered the most. How could someone with his utter lack of national expertise and name identification seem to become an overnight heavyweight?

The networks showered praise on Obama for his convention keynote speech in 2004. Out of 81 total stories about Obama from 2004 up until his official kickoff in 2007, not one was a negative report, critical of him. Not one.

Overall, the three broadcast networks gave Obama nearly seven times more good press than bad press. There have been 462 positive stories (34% of the total) compared with just 70 stories (or 5%) that were negative. The rest were classified as neutral.

"NBC Nightly News" was the most aggressive, with 179 Obama-boosting stories, compared with just 17 negative ones, a 10-to-1 margin. "CBS Evening News" was almost as bad, with a 156-to-21 gap between positive stories and negative ones.

When network reporters went looking for voters to interview, there was no effort exerted to achieve balance. Of 147 average citizens who expressed an on-camera opinion about Obama, 114 (78%) were pro-Obama, compared with just 28 (19%) that were negative, with the remaining five offering a mixed opinion.

Obama wasn't winning primary elections over Mrs. Clinton by a 78%-to-19% smackdown, but he clearly won the Average Joe sound bite primary.

Network reporters not only accentuated the positive, they tried to eliminate the negative. Look at labels.

The networks minimized Obama's liberal ideology, only referring to him as a "liberal" 14 times in four years (many of those came in 2004). In contrast, reporters found twice as many occasions (29) to refer to Obama as a star during the same period, whether he was a "rock star," "rising star" or "superstar."

The networks also downplayed or ignored what could have been major Obama gaffes and scandals. Obama's relationship with convicted influence peddler Tony Rezko was the subject of only two full reports (one each on ABC and NBC) and mentioned in just 15 other reports. CBS played it down in just part of a story, with reporter Dean Reynolds insisting "no one has charged Obama with wrongdoing, something he has been quick to point out." No one cared very much that a political fixer headed to prison had helped Barack Obama buy his pricey house in Chicago.

CBS and NBC also initially downplayed controversial statements from Obama's longtime pastor Jeremiah Wright, but excessively praised Obama's March 18 speech on race relations, his response to the Wright furor. The networks ran minute-long sound bites complete with family pictures. Liberal and conservative pundits alike came on TV and honored the Obama address as a historic moment.

What of Wright's more outrageous claims, such as the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the U.S. government invented the AIDS virus as part of a plan to eliminate the black race? Rev. Wright appeared on Fox's "Hannity & Colmes" on March 1, 2007, but it took the networks an entire year to even mention his name. By the time ABC ran its first vicious Wright sound bite, 42 states and D.C. had already voted.

With the convention starting in Denver, viewers might want to step into their rubber hip boots and wade through all the sugary goo. The nominee will be compared with Moses, George Washington, Frederick Douglass and Tiger Woods before it's all through. We can only imagine how monstrously upset they'll be that the Republicans dare to assemble and oppose their beatific vision.
 
460Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 08:44
is Reverend Wright still even an issue?

Bozell's entire career has been to work and get conservative politicians elected, and to eliminate a perceived liberal bias in the media, so it's not shocking in the least bit he feels the way he does about Obama, a powerful orator who actually has bite with his bark.

never mind the fact he actually spent time and money to organize a BOYCOTT OF PROFESSIONALY WRESTLING because he claimed it caused the deaths of young children.

well, several lies and false statements later, Bozell found himself sued over the matter, and eventually ended up paying the WWE 3.5 million dollars.

it's not the only time he's used misleading and false information to get some sort of point across, so anything he says has to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
461Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 11:14
Wow. They have two conservatives on the ABC roundtable on Sunday morning. George Will and Newt Gingrich. They're still outnumbered 3 to 2, but it is an improvement of 3 or 4 liberals vs. George Will as they usually have every week.
 
462Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 13:46
I'm not even sure conservatives are quick to claim Will. It beats Paul Begala or Podesta I guess.
 
463Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 10:40
Obama, Cuoma and Durbin all bending over backwards to keep conservative talk radio down until they can kill it with the misnomered 'Fairness Doctrine next session of congress.
For over a year, so-called civil rights leaders have been battling the implementation of a new, more precise radio ratings service developed by Arbitron. Aiding their fringe cause has been New York State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, Senator Dick Durban (D-IL) and other Democrats.

Using electronic monitoring devices known as portable people meters (PPM), the company has attempted to put an end to the wildly inaccurate, diary-based method in use for decades.

Because the new system doesn't allow cheating, meaning over-reporting listening to one's favorite programming, some specialty formats such as "Urban" and others will see substantial ratings declines under PPM

While hip-hop outlets take a hit, conservative news-talk is experiencing an enormous surge. In fact, newly- released PPM data issued in defiance of a lawsuit threat by Cuomo revealed huge gains by talkers across the country.

That included a massive 3.6 (spring 2008 under the old system) to 4.8 jump for New York City's conservative WABC in the overall 12 and older demographic. In Los Angeles, KFI moved from a 4.0 to 4.2, while Chicago's WLS surged from 3.0 to 4.5 and Philly's WPHT rocketed from 3.8 to 5.0. And in San Francisco, KGO moved from 5.2 to 6.5.

At WABC, Rush Limbaugh (now ranked fourth among all stations, including music, with a huge 5.3 share), Sean Hannity (third with a 4.8) and Mark Levin (first with a 6.5) have all turned in stellar numbers under PPM

With the exception of KGO, all of these stations carry Limbaugh and most run Hannity. That gives Obama more than enough reasons to fight the PPM's introduction, which he has done with a poorly- researched letter to Arbitron's CEO, demanding the system be scrapped, at least until the Justice Brothers have had sufficient time to manipulate it to their liking

By artificially boosting hip-hop while undermining conservative talk radio, Obama could kill two birds with one stone.

In a major blunder, Obama apparently confused Arbitron's Media Rating Council (MRC), which provides independent accrediation for their service, with the Media Research Center, resulting in an erroneous "Media Research Council" reference contained in the letter.

Reaction from key industry observers has been harsh: one called the effort to defeat PPM "moronic and selfish", while another, an Obama supporter, had this to say:
The story took a weirder turn when Barack Obama joined Dick Durbin in protesting PPM for the Chicago rollout. Full disclosure: I have contributed to the Obama campaign, and I have one of his signs on my lawn. But in the midst of the worst financial meltdown this side of Herbert Hoover, who's advising him about even commenting on radio ratings at this point in his campaign?
For its part, Arbitron has indicated that it will fight back in court against Cuomo's suit, but Obama's entrance into the debate may increase the pressure to cave into these fringe special interest groups.

Though Cuomo's action has received some mainstream press attention, Obama's role has generally been left out of their coverage. Is this because they know he's done something profoundly stupid and are covering for him as a result?
 
464Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 10:55
So, how does objecting to the new ratings technology equal "keeping conservative talk radio down" and how does that then lead to getting rid of it altogether?
 
465Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 11:44
it has to do with Obama being black, and because he's black, he wants to help hip-hop take over the world, and well, we've seen how Baldwin feels about people of darker complexions than his own.
 
466Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 13:15
If you can hold down their ratings you make them less profitable. Their profitability and the lack of profitability of their alternatives will be points in the upcoming 'Fairness Doctrine' debates.
 
467Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 14:22
I can see some drawbacks to PPM, but I seriously doubt it has much to do with talk radio.

The biggest drawback would be someone who drives 10 minutes to the market listening to their favorite station, spends 20 minutes shopping listening(not choosing) to whatever station is playing at the market, then driving home for 10 minutes again listening to their favorite station.
Traditional users of the diary would write down 20 minutes listening to their favorite station. With a PPM, the station playing in the market would get just as much credit, even if the person didn't know what station was playing.

Talk radio generally depends more on TSL(time spent listening) than Cume(overall listenership) or AQH(average quarer hour listenership). That's because talk radio listeners are more likely to stay with a station during a break than music listeners.

The biggest protests so far(more than hip hop) have been from Spanish language stations. I'd agree with the sentiment that those listeners would likely only document their listenership to Spanish radio, which is probably an honest evaluation. Let's say that person goes to Jiffy Lube and sits in the lobby for a half hour lisening to KBOR, soft hits from the 70s, 80s, 90s and Today!
With the PPM, KBOR is going to get a 30 minute credit from a person who might not even be able to understand the commercials when they do play.

I think there's some validity to the diary and people fudging for their favorite stations, as opposed to giving credit to stations listened to beyond the control, desires or wishes of the listener.
 
468Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 14:36
From people in the business, I have also heard that spanish language stations are taking the biggest hits. Those listeners tend to be hyper-loyal, more so than casual listeners who tend to flip around.

Boldwin, your argument is terribly flawed. There are lots of stations who are going to be affected one way or the other. I have no doubt talk radio is one of them. You have a lot of work to do to draw a clear line between Obama's apparent opposition to PPM and him wanting to get rid of conservative talk radio.
 
469Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 14:48
Another thin to consider is that it is currently an election year and daily news surrounding the stock market performance.

Political talk radio and news outlets traditionally perform at much higher levels at these times.

Savvy buyers of radio rarely buy based on the ratings of one book. Much more common is a 4 book average, which takes into consideration weighted ratings periods where politics dominates much of the airwaves, or a music station is temporarily giving away $1,000 an hour or some similar high profile promotion.
 
470Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 17:24
You have a lot of work to do - Razor

Nonsense. I have only to wait for the next session of congress when Pelosi procedes to do that very thing. Not without a huge fight of course. Conservatives will consider that a life-or-death issue for the country.

 
471Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 15:54
Pro-life advertiser dollars not welcome at ABC.
 
472CJ
      Leader
      ID: 499271021
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 03:32
WOW.....470 post on something that is not even a debate anymore. We now have networks using themselves to promote one candidate over the other. So YES to answer the question.
Take Joe the Plumber.........MSNBC is parked in outside his house wanting to dig and ONLY report things about Joe that make him look like a undeserved citizen for asking a really simple question. Then again I do not remember seeing MSNBC parked in front of Ayers, Rez buddy, or Pastor friend's house. Nope non of that needs looking into not to mention Acorn! Nope not a concern about that, but Joe ya that is right NOT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT Joe the plumber.
Good Grief!
By the way Fox News already reported that Joe was already voting for McCain before he asked Osama his question. So in the meantime MSNBC reports Joe is a fraud because of that....Like no Republican can ask Osama about some specifics on his Tax plan. You would think the dems had a Great opportunity to use this to their advantage and instead attack Joe.
Yep this is an easy call......will hurt Osama's chances.
 
473Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 07:39
Biden guarantees major crisis if Obama is elected.
JOE BIDEN: The whole world is waiting, folks. The whole world is waiting. I know almost every one of those major leaders by their first name, not because I'm important, because they were young parliamentarians when I was coming up and we've been hanging around a long time. I'll tell you what, mark my words, within the next, first six months of this administration if we win, you're gonna face a major international challenge, because they are going to want to test him just like they did young John Kennedy. They're going to want to test him, and they are going to find out this guy has got steel in his spine.
Not only was it not above the fold in the New York Times, it was on Page A18 in paragraph eleven of a story headlined "Obama Briefly Leaving Trail to See Ill Grandmother."

Even Dan Rather get's how outrageous this media treatment is...

 
474Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 08:43
*yawn*
 
475Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 09:13
and earlier this summer, McCain said that Obama's plans in the mideast would result in "catastrophe"...was that liberal bias too?

why don't you ignorant fools pull your head out of the same, and look at those really to blame - people like yourselves, who refused to compromise, and attempted a radical right wing coup of this nation, using the shock of 9/11 as cover.

it took this nation half-a-decade to emerge from that slumber and shock, but now that it has, it's seeing the folly of the Bush charade, and what it has absolutely plunged this country into...

but, by all means, if you want to keep being ignorant, blame the freakin' media...
 
476Perm Dude
      ID: 5293228
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 09:28
This is a story? A commonsense comment by Biden? I suppose, on the Right, an exhibition of commonsense would be above the fold worthy.
 
477Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 09:52
Well let's just be more explicit.

Kiss goodbye Taiwan, 10 former soviet satellites, nuke-free Iran, nuke-free N. Korea, Darfur, Christians in Nigeria, Isreal, etc...
 
478Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 10:51
#477

Listing a bunch of nations is hardly being explicit.

And explicitly what do you mean by Kiss Goodbye?
 
479Perm Dude
      ID: 5293228
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 11:14
I'm sure what he's saying is that, if Obama is elected, China will finish overrunning the ROC, Russia will re-constitute the USSR, both Iran and North Korea will get nuclear arms, Nigerian Christians will be wiped out, and so on. And we can lay all that at the feet of a President Obama.

At least, Baldwin appears to be hoping for all this to happen so that he can lay some political blame.
 
480Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 11:38


Faux News, indeed.
 
481CJ
      Leader
      ID: 499271021
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 12:22
LOL I am A republican but I think Sean is not exactly fair and balanced. You have to criticize your own party when they screw up as well.
 
482Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 15:24
PV

Countries that used to be counting on the implicit guarantee that the USA might just flex a muscle if outrageous provocative actions were to be taken...

...will very possibly act the way the CIA briefers who gave the candidates a confidential headsup on what to expect if they were to win...

...of course in plagerizin Joe Biden's head that means, 'I'll just take credit for superfine statesman's instincts' and predict what the handlers just suggested'. 'You know I actually know those guys, grew up with them'. 'No false modesty for me'.
 
483sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 15:32
and of ouocrse you know this, because what? You were present during these briefings? Or are you now claiming to excercise deductive reasoning/logic, when same has been absent form too many of your arguments of late? Or more likely, is this just another blind attack on your part against another Democrat?
 
484Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 17:18
Superfine instincts.
 
485Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 18:37
I just googled "CIA Briefing Biden" And immediately up pops this

*bow*
 
486Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 19:13
baldwin crediting his own instincts? lol....in fact, bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaaahahahahaahaahahahaahah
ahahabwahahhhahahaha
 
487Perm Dude
      ID: 5293228
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 19:23
That's all the Right has left: Sputtering dire predictions of disasters.
 
488Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 19:35
Just how left has PD gone? Biden is now right.
 
489Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 19:40
FYI in the Obamanation petty tyranical 'community' boards [think packed with Acorn] will be running things like a scene out of Dr. Zhivago.

For example radio channels will have to appear in front of these boards every two years to prove they've been politically correct enuff.

 
490Razor
      ID: 11992219
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 20:09
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
 
491Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Wed, Oct 22, 2008, 23:49
lol. baldwin - youve now totally lost it. wow. you are beyond insane at this point.

i actually feel sorry for you. its quite sad.
 
492Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 03:45
Razor

It will happen as sure as the sun rises in the morning. One year a board predominantly made up of the radical activist unemployed will be counting the number of times Limbaugh mentions some pet liberal project negatively and looking for an equal number of positive mentions from someone else. The station will be forced to lawyer up, hire liberal talk show hosts and lose revenue half the station's air time, but there may come a breaking point when Rush's incredible drawing power doesn't outweigh the hassles or the risk to the all important liscence and then you may see some bland happy talkers incipidly discussing recipes and movie reviews in two more years.

AM will become a desert of sermons and the mundane.

Next step, censoring the internet. Not sure if that comes after or before global government.
 
493Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 03:48
And they will extend that model of citizen community review boards into every area of life that they can get away with.
 
494Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 03:56
The seditious role of the community organiser was developed by an extreme left intellectual called Saul Alinsky. He was a radical Chicago activist who, by the time he died in 1972, had had a profound influence on the highest levels of the Democratic party. Alinsky was a ‘transformational Marxist’ in the mould of Antonio Gramsci, who promoted the strategy of a ‘long march through the institutions’ by capturing the culture and turning it inside out as the most effective means of overturning western society. In similar vein, Alinsky condemned the New Left for alienating the general public by its demonstrations and outlandish appearance. The revolution had to be carried out through stealth and deception. Its proponents had to cultivate an image of centrism and pragmatism. A master of infiltration, Alinsky wooed Chicago mobsters and Wall Street financiers alike. And successive Democratic politicians fell under his spell.

His creed was set out in his book ‘Rules for Radicals’ – a book he dedicated to Lucifer, whom he called the ‘first radical’. It was Alinsky for whom ‘change’ was his mantra. And by ‘change’, he meant a Marxist revolution achieved by slow, incremental, Machiavellian means which turned society inside out. This had to be done through systematic deception, winning the trust of the naively idealistic [*insert PD's photo here*] middle class by using the language of morality to conceal an agenda designed to destroy it. And the way to do this, he said, was through ‘people’s organisations’.
 
495Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 03:59
"Barack Obama's training in Chicago by the great community organizers is showing its effectiveness. It is an amazingly powerful format, and the method of my late father always works to get the message out and get the supporters on board. When executed meticulously and thoughtfully, it is a powerful strategy for initiating change and making it really happen. Obama learned his lesson well."

"I am proud to see that my father's model for organizing is being applied successfully beyond local community organizing to affect the Democratic campaign in 2008. It is a fine tribute to Saul Alinsky as we approach his 100th birthday."


L. DAVID ALINSKY
 
496Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 10:29
Countries that used to be counting on the implicit guarantee that the USA might just flex a muscle if outrageous provocative actions were to be taken...

Again, explicitly what countries? And you would never ever admit that the US involves itself in
outrageous provocative actions which help to proliferate conflict.

When you say kiss goodbye 10 former Soviet satellites, you display a complete lack of understanding that the Baltic states, the Ukraine, the Southern Caucasus states and the Central Asian states can't be lumped together as one entity(10 former Soviet satellites). You can't even lump together the three Southern Cuacasus nations(Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan), as each of them has a separate and unique relationship with Russia as well as the US. And none of them have an implicit guarantee from the US for anything that I'm aware of.

The European former Soviet states(Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine)have virtually nothing in common with the Central Asian former satellites(Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan) in their relationships with Russia or the US.

So I have no idea what you're talking about when you say(explicitly) kiss goodbye 10 former Soviet satellites(without naming them), then by way of explanation Countries that used to be counting on the implicit guarantee that the USA might just flex a muscle if outrageous provocative actions were to be taken...

Maybe by former Soviet satellites, you mean the Eastern European countries we used to refer to as behind the Iron Curtain. If that's the case, was Hungary counting on the implicit guarantee that the USA might just flex a muscle if outrageous provocative actions were to be taken in 1956? Czechoslovakia in 1968? And if you consider Yugoslavia a former Soviet satellite, remind me what nation bombed it for 3 months in 1999, which may be considered an outrageous, provocative action.
 
497Perm Dude
      ID: 29152221
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 10:43
Baldwin seemingly can't point to a particular problem with Alinsky, other than alluding that the guy is a communist or terrorist or something.
 
498Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 10:46
Obviously kissing off the unfortunate never causes a liberal to lose any sleep.
 
499Perm Dude
      ID: 29152221
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 10:51
Another missed chance for Baldwin. He's got nothin'
 
500sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 13:25
Obviously kissing off the unfortunate...

Isnt that the very element which comprises the Rep party platform?
 
501Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 15:21
wow. Baldwin is truly bringing the crazy.
 
502Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 15:48
Unbelievable. Now I am allegedly 'alluding' that Saul 'Rhe Red' Alinski was a 'communist' or something.

Yeah he was a proud and up front about it communist, unlike the last three of his supporters to post here.
 
503Perm Dude
      ID: 29152221
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 15:55
So now Tree, myself, and sarge are communists? Is this because we believe in setting tax rates to those agreed upon by the GOP just 8 years ago? Or our refusal to let Bill Ayers speak for Obama? Or making the mistake of letting Obama speak for Obama?

You've moved far past the edge, Baldwin. Used to be you were funny crazy. Now you're just crazy. Comes from listening to your leaders, I suspect.
 
504Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 15:58
Simon links to a piece at Armed and Dangerous about ideological warfare and the Gramscian damage to America. He lists the most important Stalinist propaganda memes:

•There is no truth, only competing agendas.
•All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.
•There are no objective standards by which we may judge one culture to be better than another. Anyone who claims that there are such standards is an evil oppressor.
•The prosperity of the West is built on ruthless exploitation of the Third World; therefore Westerners actually deserve to be impoverished and miserable.
•Crime is the fault of society, not the individual criminal. Poor criminals are entitled to what they take. Submitting to criminal predation is more virtuous than resisting it.
•The poor are victims. Criminals are victims. And only victims are virtuous. Therefore only the poor and criminals are virtuous. (Rich people can borrow some virtue by identifying with poor people and criminals.)
•For a virtuous person, violence and war are never justified. It is always better to be a victim than to fight, or even to defend oneself. But ‘oppressed’ people are allowed to use violence anyway; they are merely reflecting the evil of their oppressors.
•When confronted with terror, the only moral course for a Westerner is to apologize for past sins, understand the terrorist’s point of view, and make concessions.

He observes that these notions would have been considered insane just a generation ago, and comments:

The first step to recovery is understanding the problem. Knowing that suicidalist memes were launched at us as war weapons by the espionage apparatus of the most evil despotism in human history is in itself liberating. Liberating, too, it is to realize that the Noam Chomskys and Michael Moores and Robert Fisks of the world (and their thousands of lesser imitators in faculty lounges everywhere) are not brave transgressive forward-thinkers but pathetic memebots running the program of a dead tyrant.
 
505Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 16:19
Musical interlude after death by sledgehammer.
 
506Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 11:28
Meanwhile, I watched with disbelief as the nation’s leading newspapers, many of whom I’d written for in the past, slowly let opinion pieces creep into the news section, and from there onto the front page. Personal opinions and comments that, had they appeared in my stories in 1979, would have gotten my butt kicked by the nearest copy editor, were now standard operating procedure at the New York Times, the Washington Post, and soon after in almost every small town paper in the U.S.

...

But nothing, nothing I’ve seen has matched the media bias on display in the current Presidential campaign. Republicans are justifiably foaming at the mouth over the sheer one-sidedness of the press coverage of the two candidates and their running mates. But in the last few days, even Democrats, who have been gloating over the pass - no, make that shameless support - they’ve gotten from the press, are starting to get uncomfortable as they realize that no one wins in the long run when we don’t have a free and fair press. I was one of the first people in the traditional media to call for the firing of Dan Rather - not because of his phony story, but because he refused to admit his mistake - but, bless him, even Gunga Dan thinks the media is one-sided in this election.

...

No, what I object to (and I think most other Americans do as well) is the lack of equivalent hardball coverage of the other side - or worse, actively serving as attack dogs for Senators Obama and Biden. If the current polls are correct, we are about to elect as President of the United States a man who is essentially a cipher, who has left almost no paper trail, seems to have few friends (that at least will talk) and has entire years missing out of his biography. That isn’t Sen. Obama’s fault: his job is to put his best face forward. No, it is the traditional media’s fault, for it alone (unlike the alternative media) has had the resources to cover this story properly, and has systematically refused to do so.

Why, for example to quote McCain’s lawyer, haven’t we seen an interview with Sen. Obama’s grad school drug dealer - when we know all about Mrs. McCain’s addiction? Are Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko that hard to interview? All those phony voter registrations that hard to scrutinize? And why are Senator Biden’s endless gaffes almost always covered up, or rationalized, by the traditional media?

The absolute nadir (though I hate to commit to that, as we still have two weeks before the election) came with Joe the Plumber. Middle America, even when they didn’t agree with Joe, looked on in horror as the press took apart the private life of an average person who had the temerity to ask a tough question of a Presidential candidate. So much for the Standing Up for the Little Man, so much for Speaking Truth to Power, so much for Comforting the Afflicted and Afflicting the Comfortable, and all of those other catchphrases we journalists used to believe we lived by.

...

Who are the real villains in this story of mainstream media betrayal?

The editors. The men and women you don’t see; the people who not only decide what goes in the paper, but what doesn’t; the managers who give the reporters their assignments and lay-out the editorial pages. They are the real culprits. - Editing their way to oblivion

 
507Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 11:35
i dated a girl and i watched as she sadly went into this PTSD spiral from her time in Iraq...it was strange, and unsettling.

it's nearly as unsettling and strange watching someone unravel online.
 
508Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 11:45
Maybe you drove the both of us crazy.
 
509Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 12:02
typical of you to mock a woman with some pretty serious mental health issues.
 
510Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 12:06
This from a guy who has spent a month publicly calling me crazy.
 
511Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 12:17
So which is it? Ok to be flippant about that or not?
 
512Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 13:27
 
513Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 13:29
I'm not the only one Baldwin. it's something several people here have noticed.

you've always been a mean-spirited, pompous ass. you can just add "legit crazy" to your calling card now...
 
514Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 08:51
Open letter to America's Newspapers written by Orson Scott Card [of 'Ender's Game' fame]
Would the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights?

An open letter to the local daily paper — almost every local daily paper in America:

I remember reading All the President’s Men and thinking: That’s journalism. You do what it takes to get the truth and you lay it before the public, because the public has a right to know.

This housing crisis didn’t come out of nowhere. It was not a vague emanation of the evil Bush administration.

It was a direct result of the political decision, back in the late 1990s, to loosen the rules of lending so that home loans would be more accessible to poor people. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were authorized to approve risky loans.

What is a risky loan? It’s a loan that the recipient is likely not to be able to repay.

The goal of this rule change was to help the poor — which especially would help members of minority groups. But how does it help these people to give them a loan that they can’t repay? They get into a house, yes, but when they can’t make the payments, they lose the house — along with their credit rating.

They end up worse off than before.

This was completely foreseeable and in fact many people did foresee it. One political party, in Congress and in the executive branch, tried repeatedly to tighten up the rules. The other party blocked every such attempt and tried to loosen them.

Furthermore, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were making political contributions to the very members of Congress who were allowing them to make irresponsible loans. (Though why quasi-federal agencies were allowed to do so baffles me. It’s as if the Pentagon were allowed to contribute to the political campaigns of Congressmen who support increasing their budget.)

Isn’t there a story here? Doesn’t journalism require that you who produce our daily paper tell the truth about who brought us to a position where the only way to keep confidence in our economy was a $700 billion bailout? Aren’t you supposed to follow the money and see which politicians were benefitting personally from the deregulation of mortgage lending?

I have no doubt that if these facts had pointed to the Republican Party or to John McCain as the guilty parties, you would be treating it as a vast scandal. “Housing-gate,” no doubt. Or “Fannie-gate.”

Instead, it was Senator Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, both Democrats, who denied that there were any problems, who refused Bush administration requests to set up a regulatory agency to watch over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and who were still pushing for these agencies to go even further in promoting subprime mortgage loans almost up to the minute they failed.

As Thomas Sowell points out in a TownHall.com essay entitled Do Facts Matter? “Alan Greenspan warned them four years ago. So did the Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to the President. So did Bush’s Secretary of the Treasury.”

These are facts. This financial crisis was completely preventable. The party that blocked any attempt to prevent it was … the Democratic Party. The party that tried to prevent it was … the Republican Party.

Yet when Nancy Pelosi accused the Bush administration and Republican deregulation of causing the crisis, you in the press did not hold her to account for her lie. Instead, you criticized Republicans who took offense at this lie and refused to vote for the bailout!

What? It’s not the liar, but the victims of the lie who are to blame?

Now let’s follow the money … right to the presidential candidate who is the number-two recipient of campaign contributions from Fannie Mae.

And after Freddie Raines, the CEO of Fannie Mae who made $90 million while running it into the ground, was fired for his incompetence, one presidential candidate’s campaign actually consulted him for advice on housing.

If that presidential candidate had been John McCain, you would have called it a major scandal and we would be getting stories in your paper every day about how incompetent and corrupt he was.

But instead, that candidate was Barack Obama, and so you have buried this story, and when the McCain campaign dared to call Raines an “adviser” to the Obama campaign — because that campaign had sought his advice — you actually let Obama’s people get away with accusing McCain of lying, merely because Raines wasn’t listed as an official adviser to the Obama campaign.

You would never tolerate such weasely nit-picking from a Republican.

If you who produce our local daily paper actually had any principles, you would be pounding this story, because the prosperity of all Americans was put at risk by the foolish, short-sighted, politically selfish, and possibly corrupt actions of leading Democrats, including Obama.

If you who produce our local daily paper had any personal honor, you would find it unbearable to let the American people believe that somehow Republicans were to blame for this crisis.

There are precedents. Even though President Bush and his administration never said that Iraq sponsored or was linked to 9/11, you could not stand the fact that Americans had that misapprehension — so you pounded us with the fact that there was no such link. (Along the way, you created the false impression that Bush had lied to them and said that there was a connection.)

If you had any principles, then surely right now, when the American people are set to blame President Bush and John McCain for a crisis they tried to prevent, and are actually shifting to approve of Barack Obama because of a crisis he helped cause, you would be laboring at least as hard to correct that false impression.

Your job, as journalists, is to tell the truth. That’s what you claim you do, when you accept people’s money to buy or subscribe to your paper.

But right now, you are consenting to or actively promoting a big fat lie — that the housing crisis should somehow be blamed on Bush, McCain, and the Republicans. You have trained the American people to blame everything bad — even bad weather — on Bush, and they are responding as you have taught them to.

If you had any personal honor, each reporter and editor would be insisting on telling the truth — even if it hurts the election chances of your favorite candidate.

Because that’s what honorable people do. Honest people tell the truth even when they don’t like the probable consequences. That’s what honesty means. That’s how trust is earned.

Barack Obama is just another politician, and not a very wise one. He has revealed his ignorance and naivete time after time — and you have swept it under the rug, treated it as nothing.

Meanwhile, you have participated in the borking of Sarah Palin, reporting savage attacks on her for the pregnancy of her unmarried daughter — while you ignored the story of John Edwards’s own adultery for many months.

So I ask you now: Do you have any standards at all? Do you even know what honesty means?

Is getting people to vote for Barack Obama so important that you will throw away everything that journalism is supposed to stand for?

You might want to remember the way the National Organization of Women threw away their integrity by supporting Bill Clinton despite his well-known pattern of sexual exploitation of powerless women. Who listens to NOW anymore? We know they stand for nothing; they have no principles.

That’s where you are right now.

It’s not too late. You know that if the situation were reversed, and the truth would damage McCain and help Obama, you would be moving heaven and earth to get the true story out there.

If you want to redeem your honor, you will swallow hard and make a list of all the stories you would print if it were McCain who had been getting money from Fannie Mae, McCain whose campaign had consulted with its discredited former CEO, McCain who had voted against tightening its lending practices.

Then you will print them, even though every one of those true stories will point the finger of blame at the reckless Democratic Party, which put our nation’s prosperity at risk so they could feel good about helping the poor, and lay a fair share of the blame at Obama’s door.

You will also tell the truth about John McCain: that he tried, as a Senator, to do what it took to prevent this crisis. You will tell the truth about President Bush: that his administration tried more than once to get Congress to regulate lending in a responsible way.

This was a Congress-caused crisis, beginning during the Clinton administration, with Democrats leading the way into the crisis and blocking every effort to get out of it in a timely fashion.

If you at our local daily newspaper continue to let Americans believe –and vote as if — President Bush and the Republicans caused the crisis, then you are joining in that lie.

If you do not tell the truth about the Democrats — including Barack Obama — and do so with the same energy you would use if the miscreants were Republicans — then you are not journalists by any standard.

You’re just the public relations machine of the Democratic Party, and it’s time you were all fired and real journalists brought in, so that we can actually have a daily newspaper in our city.
 
515biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:08
Well at least Card hasn't strayed from his expertise - fantasy.
 
516Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:10
 
517Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:25
 
518Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:26
These are facts. This financial crisis was completely preventable. The party that blocked any attempt to prevent it was … the Democratic Party. The party that tried to prevent it was … the Republican Party.

Here's a real fact from a post I just made in the Obama thread.

Well, probably the single barrier to first-time homeownership is high down payments. People take a look at the down payment, they say that's too high, I'm not buying. They may have the desire to buy, but they don't have the wherewithal to handle the down payment. We can deal with that. And so I've asked Congress to fully fund an American Dream down payment fund which will help a low-income family to qualify to buy, to buy. (Applause.)

We believe when this fund is fully funded and properly administered, which it will be under the Bush administration, that over 40,000 families a year -- 40,000 families a year -- will be able to realize the dream we want them to be able to realize, and that's owning their own home. (Applause.)
George W Bush - June 18, 2002

Republican president with Republican majority in Congress. Now tell me with a straight face that

The party that tried to prevent it was … the Republican Party.

Partisan BS from a partisan hack.
 
519Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:33
Bili, I'm really disappointed in you. I'm really starting to wonder if there are any honest serious people on the left anymore. It's like the left has just discovered the 'incredible lightness of being', become completely unhinged from reality and just floated off the ground.
 
520Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:36
PV

Where is the unresponsibility in that idea? That says nothing about their ability to repay the loan. That does not create liar loans. That does not insert bad loans into the system. What is yer freakin problem with that idea?
 
521Baldwin
      ID: 201045320
      Wed, Nov 05, 2008, 20:38
Well of course he did.
 
522Baldwin
      ID: 201045320
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 06:48
And if this were McCain and Michelle?
 
523DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 11:57
You mean McCain and Biden? Pretty sure that Michelle wasn't running for VP--though you did try to run against her, of course.

I don't think Biden would look good in that outfit at all.
 
524Baldwin
      ID: 201045320
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 12:08
Try and be a little flexible in your thinking. 8]
 
525Tree
      ID: 121035316
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 12:15
Try and be a little flexible in your thinking. 8]

if that was not meant with tongue firmly planted in cheek, that is quite possibly the biggest "pot calling the kettle black" statement of all time.
 
526DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 12:43
I stand corrected
 
527boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 13:20
Did anyone notice that the arms are way to long in the picture? It makes it appear that one else is holding palin.
 
528boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 17:04
where is boldwin i figured this would be right up his way.
 
529Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 16:27
For anyone doubting about a liberal media bias look at the Chicago Sun Times website.

Sun Times

There is an entire row, just below the section choices (home, metro, news, etc) with everything about Obama.

There is a picture of Obama and MLK Jr. with "Buy historic prints, cartoons and videos".

Next to that is "Get the Nov 5 cover on your phone".

Next to that is "How Princeton Shaped Michelle Obama"

Next to that is "How to Celebrate Christmas Obama Style"

I mean give me a break.
 
530Razor
      ID: 181051618
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 16:31
Fascinating that a Chicago newspaper would have several stories about a President from Chicago.
 
531Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 16:52
When the Giants won the Super Bowl all the NY papers (not just one of the second-fiddle rags) had similar features online listing Giants stories just under their main headings. They were up for weeks.

For anyone "doubting about" a NY Giants media bias, you should have seen all the NY papers back in February.
 
532Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 16:56
I swear whenever a conservative or anti-Obama post hits these boards, the Batphone rings in about a dozen homes.
 
533Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 16:59
I'd think knowing that would prompt you to make better arguments.
 
534Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 17:06
Your ignorance and bias is not a reflection on my arguments.
 
535Razor
      ID: 181051618
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 17:15
Ignorance! Bias! See, I can throw around words too.
 
536Tree
      ID: 531126312
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 17:32
personally, i'm disgusted with the Sun Times coverage of Jennifer Hudson...

oh. never mind. she's from chicago too.

so instead, i'm disgusted that the band Fall Out Boy has top billing in the photo gallery sidebar...

oh. they're from Chicago too? never mind.

Boxman, keep trying though. Much like Baldwin's attempts, yours too will eventually allow for the Infinite Monkey Theorem to kick in, and we'll rejoice for you.
 
537Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 17:38
LOL.

A case of ignorance might be displayed by citing a single anecdotal example from a secondary outlet as proof of a broad media bias.

A case of bias might be displayed by eagerly attatching one's integrity to so illogical an excuse to criticize the opposition.
 
538Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 18:01
I swear whenever a conservative or anti-Obama post hits these boards, the Batphone rings in about a dozen homes

Let me refer you to the last few posts in the President Obama thread, where Baldwin posts a conservative or anti-Obama accusation concerning the 'civilian national security force.'

Here's the problem. These conservative or anti-Obama posts have no basis in reality. The technique appears to be:

"I know what Obama said, but here's what he really meant."

or

" I didn't bother to read what Obama said, so I'll just make something up."

How else to explain the claim that Obama was promoting "brownshirt tactics" when speaking of his desire to grow the Peace Corps, Americorps and Foreign Service?

I mean give me a break.

Funny how you're concerned with such earth-shattering items like "How to Celebrate Christmas Obama Style", but oblivious to the completely dishonest portrayals of Obama in the conservative media.
It used to be that conservatives would react to the Obama 'civilian national security force' with logic, such as:

Is it realistic to double the size of the Peace Corps? Is it financially feasible? Will it actually serve to improve the security of the nation? What's the incentive for Americans to volunteer for what in some cases could be a dangerous assignment other than Obama wants us to?

I think you'll find that when conservative or anti-Obama posts don't degenerate into cries of Brownshirts! or Marxists! the level of discourse will rise accordingly.



 
539boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 10:16
I swear whenever a conservative or anti-Obama post hits these boards, the Batphone rings in about a dozen homes.

this is kind of funny.
 
540Boldwin
      ID: 1810312617
      Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 12:12
I think you'll find that when conservative or anti-Obama posts don't degenerate into cries of Brownshirts! or Marxists! the level of discourse will rise accordingly. - PV

I threw the gauntlet down and asked people over and over to justify the need for a civilian government 'security force' with the same size and funding as the military.

Handing a career Acorn rabble-rouser a government funded 'rabble' the size of the USA military doesn't make me feel any more secure, I can guarantee you.

Feel free to start the justifying as soon and as highminded as you possibly can.
 
541Boldwin
      ID: 1810312617
      Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 12:26
Especially impressive considering the phones ringing are mostly under bridges and the troll spotlight is hard to make out from that vantage point.
 
542Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Mon, Jan 05, 2009, 15:43
Hollywood Conservatives Coming Out Of The Closet

"Our goal," says Breitbart, who lives in Los Angeles, "is to create an atmosphere of tolerance — something that does not exist in this town."

Breitbart has invited a number of conservative politicians, commentators and journalists to write regularly about the cult of celebrity, liberalism in popular culture, and politics. Among the names who will be contributing, he says, are Rep. Eric Cantor (R-Va), political commentator Tucker Carlson, and former Tennessee Senator and Republican presidential contender Fred Thompson.

The site will also feature the punditry of some well-known Hollywood actors, directors, producers, and writers, Breitbart says.

As celebrities like Jon Voight, Gary Sinise, Charlton Heston, Patricia Heaton, Stephen Baldwin and Kelsey Grammer came out publicly with their political ideas over the past few years, the news that there were, in fact, conservatives in Hollywood, had many wondering who would be next.

Recently, there have been rumors that Robert Downey Jr. is a closet Republican, though his publicist will neither confirm nor deny it, saying only, "We unfortunately have no comment, as RDJ does not comment on political matters."

But Breitbart says the goal of Big Hollywood is not to "out" conservative celebrities, and he will not pressure celebrities like Downey to jump into the fray. He says conservative celebs who aren't comfortable with full transparency will be allowed to write under an alias.

"I want them to come on their own volition," he says. "'Big Hollywood is going to have to be a compelling daily read that speaks to Hollywood conservatives' unique burden before some will stick their necks out and choose to speak up for what they believe."

Sticking their necks out has not always been good for business. Mark Vafiades, president of the Hollywood Congress of Republicans, says, "I'm hoping that one day politics won't make a difference in Hollywood. But because there is still subtle intolerance here, conservatives remain somewhat shy.

"If you come to an audition wearing a Bush or McCain button, the casting director will most likely pick another actor. Just being on a set you hear people bashing Bush and the right, because they assume everyone agrees."
 
543Perm Dude
      ID: 10558
      Mon, Jan 05, 2009, 16:24
Heh. Is it some other country that makes "24"? Of anything by Bruce Willis?

What kind of idiot would go on a job interview wearing a political button? Thin-skinned Hollywood conservatives want the right to wear political buttons on their auditions? Really?
 
544DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Jan 05, 2009, 17:11
Proof that Hollywood is monolithically liberal: a list of successful conservative actors and actresses.

Only in America!

 
545Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Mon, Jan 05, 2009, 18:05
Oh c'mon. [insert pejorative because I KNOW you two understand this]

Liberals go on and on about McCarthyism but you never heard about the concept if it favors liberalism.
 
546Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Jan 07, 2009, 06:08
Drudge

NBC's TODAY show abruptly cut Ann Coulter from its planned Tuesday broadcast, claiming the schedule was overbooked.

Executives at NBC TODAY replaced Coulter with showbiz reporter Perez Hilton, who recently offered $1,000 to anyone who would throw a pie at Ann Coulter. Hilton is also launching a new book this week, RED CARPET SUICIDE.

Coulter was set to unveil her new book, GUILTY.

One network insider claims it was the book's theme -- a brutal examination of liberal bias in the new era -- that got executives to dis-invite the controversialist.

"We are just not interested in anyone so highly critical of President-elect Obama, right now," a TODAY insider reveals. "It's such a downer. It's just not the time, and it's not what our audience wants, either."
 
547Mith
      ID: 148402816
      Wed, Jan 07, 2009, 06:14
The real question is why they booked that harpy in the first place.
 
548Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Wed, Jan 07, 2009, 08:10
Because you wouldn't want the best selling political author of the decade in on the discussion.

And your excuse for freezing out her large audience from the national discussion is what exactly? That your world view can't withstand the competition? They might break Obama's magic spell?
 
549Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Wed, Jan 07, 2009, 08:13
Perez Hilton is much more entertaining. he's funnier, he's gayer, and he's a big backer of new musicians, including a good friend of mine.

he also is a much more attractive woman than Ann Coulter.
 
550Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Jan 07, 2009, 09:48
#546

The Drudge report story on Ann Coulter's TODAY show appearance/ cancellation reads more like a national Enquirer story masked as journalism.

insiders tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

a top network source explains

said the news executive, who asked not to be named

One network insider claims

a TODAY insider reveals.

Others inside the peacock network

insiders explain

tips a source.


That said, my personal thought is that NBC booked her, and they have an obligation to honor that booking, lacking a logical premise that doesn't appear to exist.

Given the parade of anonymous sources in the Drudge Report story, it's impossible to discern at what level this decision was made and at what point in time.


Turns out it's rather a moot point, as Coulter appeared this morning on the Today show.

Coulter appeared in the 7 AM hour of "Today" Wednesday morning, and Matt Lauer opened the interview by acknowledging "this little controversy."

When Lauer asked whether Coulter was behind the report that she was banned for life from the "Today" show, she responded, "I didn't say that. That was from a reliable news report that, by the way, has never had to retract a report on exploding GM trucks...like NBC."

Coulter then told Lauer, "It apparently took the 'Today' show eight hours to remember that there was a Wednesday show that I could be invited back to."

"We traded you out for Tony Blair yesterday," Lauer said, accusing Coulter of drumming up controversy to sell books. "And I think that's a pretty good switch."
 
551Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Jan 07, 2009, 10:11
As a prologue to the Coulter/NBC flap, I'm reminded of Coulter's comments Monday night on Hannity/Colmes:

Coulter was reportedly offered a spot on Wednesday's show but she shrugged off the offer: "I think I'll accept and then cancel at the last minute."

Quotation marks used properly. Drudge Report fans take note.

 
552Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Wed, Jan 07, 2009, 17:00
How much jerking around is she supposed to accept gracefully?

If NBC has any hope of attracting the other half of the viewing public back into their biased bosom, they are the ones who need Coulter, not the other way around.
 
553Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Thu, Jan 08, 2009, 11:59
How much jerking around is she supposed to accept gracefully?

That would indicate you think at some point in this controversy she has actually been graceful. The reality is that Coulter has used this incident to perpetrate the dishonesty and distortion which has made her famous, and to keep top of mind awareness that she has a new book, which she'll need to promote beyond those who worship at the altar of Ann Coulter if she has aspirations to have better sales than her last effort, whose sales can be described as disappointing.
We're not talking politics here, we're talking marketing, and Coulter needs to define herself as a martyr in order to get the necessary publicity to sell a bad book, which she and her handlers likely don't feel can be successful on its merits alone.

I support this claim by linking to the opening of today's
Coulter column.

After NBC canceled me "for life" on Monday -- until seven or eight hours later when the ban was splashed across the top of The Drudge Report, forcing a red-faced NBC to withdraw the ban -- an NBC insider told The Drudge Report: "We are just not interested in anyone so highly critical of President-elect Obama, right now," explaining that "it's such a downer. It's just not the time, and it's not what our audience wants, either."

Coulter would have likely preferred to claim the media had banned her for life, but since she was featured on Fox's Hannity and Colmes Monday night and the CBS morning show Tuesday, that lie would be too blatant. It would rank up there with Baldwin's claim that the media wants Israel and the USA isolated and hated. So she claims NBC banned her for life based on this from the Drudge Report:

The nation's top selling conservative author has been banned from appearing on NBC, insiders tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

"We are just not going to have her on any more, it's over," a top network source explains.

But a second top suit strongly denies there is any "Coulter ban".

"Look for a re-invite, as soon as Wednesday," said the news executive, who asked not to be named.


So we have two conflicting reports, both from anonymous sources. There's no way of knowing what level of executive decision making constitutes a claim from a top network source. A top network source, not a top network executive. The second claim, that Coulter would be re-scheduled for Wednesday, was attributed to a news executive, again anonymously, which indicates a decision maker more than top source.

So when Ann claims that After NBC canceled me "for life" on Monday -- until seven or eight hours later when the ban was splashed across the top of The Drudge Report, forcing a red-faced NBC to withdraw the ban

she advances a complete absence of journalistic integrity. Of course, journalistic integrity is not her goal, and neither is honesty.

Other than an anonymous claim from an unknowable level NBC executive, no evidence is available that NBC canceled me "for life".

Guests on shows are routinely bumped or rescheduled. NBC might have thought it a bad idea to have her on the show the same day she was going to be on CBS. NBC might have actually wanted to ban Coulter for life, and put her on Wednesday's show because NBC needs her more than she needs them. Drudge may have made the whole thing up or considers the comments of a second tier producer as official policy of NBC.

But Coulter needs to cultivate her martyr image, and is more than willing to be dishonest to attain it. As long as it helps sell some books.
 
554Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Thu, Jan 08, 2009, 15:40
Because it's just too much to believe 'Today' or NBC execs loathe her.
 
555Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Thu, Jan 08, 2009, 17:26
Because it's just too much to believe 'Today' or NBC execs loathe her.

It's too much to believe that a self-identified conservative would completely abandon(again) the idea of individualism. In your world, all 'Today' and NBC execs think with one mind, feel with one emotion, and act in concert with demonizing the right as their only goal.

Now, if you have some evidence that any executive at NBC issued a memo banning Ann Coulter for life, please provide their name and position within the corporation.

Otherwise, I'll chalk #554 as support for the distortion and dishonesty Coulter displays so vividly in her column.
 
556Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Thu, Jan 08, 2009, 22:28
I'll Take Matt Drudge's word over that of NBC's entire news staff.
 
557Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 00:13
I'll Take Matt Drudge's word over that of NBC's entire news staff.

Is that a response or just an admission of obsessive hatred of a mainstream media outlet?

As for you blind faith in the accuracy of Matt Drudge:

Conservative heavyweight Matt Drudge has all but retracted a story about Democratic National Committee chairman Howard Dean after receiving a letter from the DNC's lawyers, RAW STORY can report.

DNC communications director Karen Finney said the move came only after the Committee's lawyer had penned a note to Drudge asking him to take the story down.

"Because of the seriousness of the inaccuracy and the reckless disregard of the facts I did ask our lawyer to send a note to Drudge asking him to take the story down," Finney told RAW STORY.

“I’m disappointed that Drudge would run such a grossly inaccurate story particularly when it comes to protecting the people’s right to vote,” she added.

The Democratic National Committee consulted its attorneys Monday after a story claimed that Dean had intervened in New Orleans' recent mayoral race.

On Sunday evening, The Drudge Report claimed that Dean threw his support behind mayoral candidate and sitting Lieutenant Governor Mitch Landrieu (D-LA) over sitting mayor Ray Nagin. Finney said the report was "absolutely false."

Finney was amused to find her quote -- given only to RAW STORY -- in Drudge's story. She said she had not spoken to Drudge.

link

Beyond that,

In 1997, the Drudge Report reported that incoming White House assistant Sidney Blumenthal beat his wife and was covering it up. Drudge retracted the story the next day and apologized, saying he was given bad information

During the 2004 Presidential campaign, Drudge ran a questionable story quoting General Wesley Clark, where Clark claimed that the John Kerry campaign would implode over an intern affair

In 1999, the Drudge Report announced that it had viewed a videotape which was the basis of a Star Magazine and Hard Copy story. Under the headline, "Woman Names Bill Clinton Father Of Son In Shocking Video Confession", Drudge reported a videotaped "confession" by a former prostitute who claimed that her son was fathered by Bill Clinton. The Report stated, "To accuse the most powerful man in the world of being the father of her son is either the hoax of a lifetime, or a personal turmoil that needs resolution. Only two people may know that answer tonight." The claim turned out to be a hoax.

In late August 2008, the Drudge Report reported that Barack Obama had possibly selected Evan Bayh as his running mate. The report was based on claims that workers at a bumper sticker factory had seen a "Obama-Bayh '08" bumper sticker. The report was incorrect.

On September 5, 2008 the Drudge Report reported that Oprah staffers were "sharply divided on the merits of booking Sarah Palin." He said that he obtained the information from an anonymous source. Winfrey responded in a written statement to news outlets that: "The item in today’s Drudge Report is categorically untrue. There has been absolutely no discussion about having Sarah Palin on my show

On October 23, 2008, Drudge picked up an unconfirmed exclusive story regarding Ashley Todd, the 20-year old employee[62] of the College Republican National Committee (CRNC) and John McCain volunteer who had allegedly been attacked by a black male for having a McCain sticker on her car. Drudge reported the story without a link but as 'developing', titling the headline "SHOCK: McCAIN VOLUNTEER ATTACKED AND MUTILATED IN PITTSBURGH - "B" carved into 20 yr old Woman's Face"
Drudge printed a retraction of the story the next day, including links to the news stories detailing that the attack had been a hoax and that Ashley Todd had performed a similar 'attack' on herself while working for the Ron Paul campaign

The Drudge Report linked to a Washington Examiner article under the headline, "Obama Inaugural Could Bankrupt DC," but in the article, the Examiner did not report that the inauguration "could bankrupt" the city

After Drudge posted his "Obama Inaugural Could Bankrupt DC" headline, other websites similarly cited the Examiner headline to assert that the inauguration would "bankrupt" the city.


A litany of lies, hoaxes, false accusations, anonymous sources and unverified gossip - other than the conservative bent, what would lead you to believe in Matt Drudge's integrity in this instance?
 
558Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 04:29
You think watching a lone individual back down under the threat of ruinous litigation even if he wins is going to impress me? NBC used to be my news station back before I realized what liars the MSM were.
 
559Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 08:16
heh. so when Drudge changes course, it's because he's getting sued???

i imagine of Rather or really, anyone from the MSM changed course, or any liberal or dem for that matter, you wouldn't believe the new direction for one minute.

funny how you constantly rail against the MSM, when your flaxen haired goddess Coulter is as MSM as it gets...

 
560Perm Dude
      ID: 21020822
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 09:23
So Drudge, who retracted the story about Coulter being "banned for life" because she wasn't, in fact, banned for life is actually right in this case? And NBC, who never said she was banned (outside of a single retracted story), and who actually had Coulter on the show despite the supposed "ban" is actually wrong in this case?

And your proof is that the "MSM" are "liars?" Remember, we're talking about Ann Coulter here. You maintain that it is the "MSM" who are lying in this case?

Was Coulter, in fact, "banned for life?" The fact that she actually appeared on NBC after this supposed "ban" weighs against believing this to be true.

Of course, Baldwin and other conservatives are not using evidence in the same way. When conservatives can become martyrs then we need to remember that evidence to the contrary needs to be suppressed when possible, ignored when it appears to be small, or sneered at when brought up in a way in which it can't be ignored.
 
561Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 09:50
NBC backed down when the story went viral. That is what happened. Behold the power of Matt Drudge.
 
562Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 10:00
And you have GOT to be kidding me if you think I am impressed by Sid 'Vicious' Blumenthal' suing Drudge for several hundred million dollars. The Clintons had an operation of intimidating the media into spiking negative stories and 99 out of a 100 times they backed down the big three from publishing. The first question in the hiring interview for Clinton staffer was whether they felt comfortable lieing to the FBI. I am not joking about that. You think Drudge would believe he could count on them not lieing on the stand in a >hundred million dollar lawsuit aginst their mortal enemy? Yeah, I'd seriously consider backing down if I were Drudge.
 
563Perm Dude
      ID: 21020822
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 10:25
When you have the truth on your side, someone suing you won't matter. You don't think Drudge has every conservative lawyer itching to take on the "MSM?"

He backed down because, like in the past, he was wrong and knew he'd get busted. Drudge's problem is that he is both editor and writer. When he is wrong it gets into litigation area because he has no check on himself.

What a joke it all is. It contains all the buzzwords of the modern conservative movement: Martyred columnist unable to get her words on a MSM outlet, who is using the power of an out-of-control lawsuit society to keep down a lone voice of truth in the media.

And, like the modern conservative movement, the whole thing is hollow at its heart. And Coulter is left bleating about a "banning" on the very show she is supposed to be banned from.
 
564Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 10:44
First off, the MSM can't lie, just as the government can't lie, Wall Street can't lie, banks can't lie and nations can't lie. Only people within those organizations can lie, and the MSM is the most non-descript of all those examples.
Next, impressing you is not my objective. You can ignore the many examples I listed as Drudge's consistently irresponsible form of tabloid journalism by focusing on one example with lame excuses, but it doesn't change the record.


Finally, Drudge never even makes the claim that Coulter was banned for life by NBC. This probably the 3rd time I've had to post this, but maybe it'll sink in eventually by osmosis since simple comprehension doesn't seem to be working.

Drudge's report:

The nation's top selling conservative author has been banned from appearing on NBC, insiders tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

"We are just not going to have her on any more, it's over," a top network source explains.

A top network source can be anybody, and to use this anonymous quote as proof that NBC banned Coulter "for life"(the quotation marks were included in Coulter's column, even though the words 'for life' never appear in the Drudge blog)is simply Coulter being dishonest.

You behold the power of Matt Drudge, then claim he has to back down in the face of a lawsuit for making false claims. I'm not kidding you, but you appear to be kidding yourself.


 
565Boldwin
      ID: 5704850
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 18:10
Finally, Drudge never even makes the claim that Coulter was banned for life by NBC. This probably the 3rd time I've had to post this, but maybe it'll sink in eventually by osmosis since simple comprehension doesn't seem to be working.

A top network source can be anybody, and to use this anonymous quote as proof that NBC banned Coulter "for life"(the quotation marks were included in Coulter's column, even though the words 'for life' never appear in the Drudge blog)is simply Coulter being dishonest.
- PV

Here is the actual first 3 lines of the Drudge segment...
The nation's top selling conservative author has been banned from appearing on NBC, insiders tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

Banned for life!

"We are just not going to have her on any more, it's over," a top network source explains.
In fact your inflamatory and defamatory accusations of my and Coulter's dishonesty were actually examples of your lack of rigorously researching before besmirching.
 
566Boldwin
      ID: 34044918
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 19:45
MSM owned lock, stock and barrel.
 
567Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 20:33
The words "for life" in quotation marks don't appear in the Drudge blog.

That's because nobody said it.
 
568Boldwin
      ID: 34044918
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 21:07
I cut-and-pasted the blockquote in #565 where Drudge quoted Banned for life! directly from Drudge's site.

The link I provided proves it, you can see it for yourself right now, but perhaps you don't believe your own lieing eyes.
 
569Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 22:28
I cut-and-pasted the blockquote in #565 where Drudge quoted Banned for life! directly from Drudge's site.

Try Boxman's link in #546, the one I've been using as a template, and copy and pasted initially.

There is no second line

Banned For Life

Interestingly, #585, though time stamped the same as #546, is actually from the archive, leading one to suspect the BANNED FOR LIFE was added later. Apology accepted.

But even if there were, it changes nothing, unless Ann Coulter needs a medial grammar lesson, highly doubtful for a top selling author.

She begins her column in question:

After NBC canceled me "for life" on Monday

The prepositional phrase, in quotes, is result of the verb, cancelled, initiated by the noun, NBC.

Claiming that the prepositional phrase, in quotes, can be attributed to Matt Drudge, who hasn't even been introduced in the sentence, is an association that no third grade English student with a rudimentary skill in diagraming a sentence would attempt to employ.

Coulter's intent was clear.




 
570Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 22:34
The Drudge Report prior to Banned For Life
 
571Boldwin
      ID: 34044918
      Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 13:39
Coulter had clearly been informed that an NBC exec had stated that she wasn't coming back.

How you can call her a liar for passing that along is an example of liberal think that will continue to elude me, I guess.
 
572DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 18:16
Well, if she's a credible journalist, she'd get a second source, no? Or at least attempt to not rely on second-hand information but get it from the actual source?

Of course, if she's just a self-aggrandizing publicity hound and entertainer, it doesn't really matter who said what.

You can't have it both ways.
 
573Perm Dude
      ID: 59022923
      Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 19:26
Clearly? In what way is this clear? Seriously--how is it clear? Because she said it? Has she said who told her?
 
574Boldwin
      ID: 34044918
      Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 20:27
Really, I've shown you a you tube of the MSM discussing how the media are 'all working for Obama now' and you think it suspicious that two of my favorite people get wind of NBC execs feeling that putting Coulter on their network isn't helpful to Obama so they aren't going to do it anymore.

That sounds so unlikely to you that you ask me to be 'led to believe' in your 'magic loogie' theory that Drudge's archives have been likely edited after the fact and therefore Ann could not have known about the Drudge piece and is lying about it.

Puhleeze.

I find Drudge more convincing than that load you are trying to sell.
 
575Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 22:06
you ask me to be 'led to believe' in your 'magic loogie' theory that Drudge's archives have been likely edited after the fact

I'm not asking you to believe anything. Boxman was the one who originally posted the Drudge blog sans the Banned for life! not me, although you managed to berate me with examples of your lack of rigorously researching before besmirching.

Turns out my research was correct and yours was an example of a lack of rigorously researching before besmirching.

Your you tube of the MSM discussing how the media are 'all working for Obama now' is a joke. and proves nothing. It's one guy I've never heard of on the Joe Scarborough Show, a conservative MSNBC s program, hardly an MSM discussion.

You refused to discuss this subject in a mature manner. You make stuff up as you go along.

Coulter had clearly been informed that an NBC exec had stated that she wasn't coming back.

Where do you get that? Drudge claims,

"We are just not going to have her on any more, it's over," a top network source explains.

A top network source, not an NBC exec. A top network source could be the person who gets donuts and coffee. It could be a disgruntled conservative feeding Drudge bad information.

So when Coulter begins her column with,

After NBC canceled me "for life" on Monday, as if she's relating a fact, she's lying.

To compound this dishonesty, when Lauer asked her if she was, indeed, the one behind the "banned for life" claims, she didn't answer, but said,

"the Drudge Report has never had to retract a report" - another lie.

I find Drudge more convincing

Of course you do. He's got a giant sized ad for her book on the same page as the report. She pays him for that, you know, unless it's a trade favors arrangement.





 
576Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 22:32
OT - PV, you're needed in the Poli baseball thread...

and Baldwin, since your email seems to change all the time, please let us know in that thread whether you received the email about nominations.

thanks...
 
577Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 10:53
In the interest of putting this entire Coulter banning into perspective, several things should be noted.

Even though Coulter and Drudge are both Guilty of journalistic indiscretions, it doesn't rise to the level of

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

and other such fabrications made by elected public officials.

Neither Coulter, nor Drudge, are really journalists, and are not held to the same standard as actual news outlets.

I don't blame Ann Coulter for taking the Tuesday cancellation and blowing it up into accusations of a lifetime ban, though unsubstantiated. It works perfectly for her premise that the liberal MSM is out to silence the voices of conservatives. It works perfectly to paint herself as a victim, which is the basic theme of her new book. It works perfectly in her marketing scheme to keep her name in front of the public during the week her new book is released.

It's hard to blame Coulter for fudging the truth, or even if she worked in concert with Drudge to create a controversy. You almost have to applaud her cleverness for taking advantage of a questionable cancellation/re-scheduling by NBC.

It's a victory for Coulter over NBC, even if it is a shallow one. Coulter fans will nod that the liberal MSM hates conservatives, loves and works for Obama and that NBC needs Coulter more than she needs them.

Coulter critics will dismiss her as a radical partisan willing to abandon traditional ethics in the interest of self-promotion.

There's some truth to both sides of the Coulter coin. But the vast majority of Americans will ignore the whole flap, more concerned with the next season of American Idol than whether Ann Coulter or NBC or both are dishonest.

That said, and since I obviously fall into the Coulter critic category, I want to point out something from Coulter's new book(which I admittedly haven't read) that supports my claim that she willfully abandons traditional ethics for the sake of obsessive partisanship.

From the book commenting on Michelle Obama

Her obvious imitation of Jackie O's style - the flipped-under hair, the sleeveless A-line dresses, the short strands of fake pearls - would have been laughable if done by anyone other than a media-designated saint.

From her book commenting on Cindy McCain

dressed well without freakishly imitating famous First Ladies in history.

From her book commenting on single mothers

Single motherhood is like a farm team for future criminals...

We have a term for youngsters involved in children of divorces, or as I call them, future strippers.


From her appearance Monday night on Hannity and Colmes

Coulter: This was not an accident that the illegitimacy rate has gone up 300 percent since 1970. This was a plan by liberals.

COLMES: Wait, wait. Liberals want the rates to go up?

COULTER: They hate marriage, yes.


Getting beyond the incredibly trite fashion comments on Mrs. Obama and Mrs. McCain:

Hensley met John McCain in April 1979 at a military reception in Hawaii.[23] He was the U.S. Navy liaison officer to the United States Senate, almost eighteen years her senior.[24] McCain and Hensley quickly began a relationship,[24] traveling between Arizona and Washington to see each other.[15] John McCain then pushed to end his marriage of fourteen years;[23] Carol McCain and John McCain stopped cohabiting in January 1980,[25] and Carol accepted a divorce in February 1980,[23] effective in April 1980. John and Cindy were married on May 17, 1980 at the Arizona Biltmore Hotel in Phoenix.
link

Barack Obama and Michelle Robinson married in 1992, the first and only marriage for each.

So , liberals hate marriage, but it was Cindy McCain who openly began an affair with a married man leading to divorce. McCain's first wife, Carol, was a divorcee and mother of two from her first marriage, also had a daughter while married to McCain.
Ronald Reagan was also married twice and the two children he sired by his second wife are both ardent liberals.

COLMES: Oh, their kids are strippers. OK.

COULTER: Yes, and they will be, and that is a fact. You liberals pretend you care about facts.


As do you, Ann, as do you.



 
578Boldwin
      ID: 34044918
      Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 11:52
You really are unread if don't believe that the animating liberal philosophy of the last 5 decades holds that marriage is an outdated patriarchal institution inimical to women's happiness, described as virtual slavery and rape frequently. They hate families because they are the most effective way to pass on successful traditions [that highbrows consider bourgeois]. They portray all male family heads as bungling idiots. Single moms are liberated inspiring heroes. Professors equate passing on the family religious tradition to mental child abuse. That any successful families survive in this liberal milieu is an amazing miracle. That you can feign ignorance of the predominant archetype portrayed in virtually every family sitcom you've ever seen, stretches credulity.
 
579Boldwin
      ID: 34044918
      Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 11:55
And the idea that Coulter is somehow hypocritical for supporting McCain, you can't possibly have forgotten just how tepid and left-handed that support was, even to the point of being willing to support Hillary over him.
 
580DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 13:48
Way to (yet again) gloss over a well-articulated post detailing why you're an idiot with some hand-waving and a couple of sentences of conservative talking points.
 
581Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 10:34
#578

I may be unread as to wild characterizations of all liberals hating families, marriage and religious tradition, but I do have 57 years of real life experience on which to draw.

My liberal brother and sister-in-law have been married 37 years, raised two sons, and when the oldest was murdered, the service was held at their local Lutheran Church, the traditional denomination of my sister-in-law's family, which my brother adopted decades ago.

My liberal cousin is a graduate of ultra-liberal Cal-Berkeley, who married a Presbyterian seminary student. He left the seminary to become a nurse. They sold their house and moved onto a boat in Alameda Harbor so they could afford to send their daughter to the Christian College ( Westmont) she attends in Santa Barbara.

My liberal best friend from high school is a lawyer specializing in Spanish speaking clientele(he moved to the US from Argentina when he was 7), has been married 30 years, and has raised 4 kids of his own plus a nephew whose family was dysfunctional. His oldest son attends Regis College, A Jesuit school in Denver.

Isolated circumstances, or real life examples of liberal families and friends committed to marriage, families and traditional religion? I'd wager most every poster on this board could point to similar examples.

That you can feign ignorance of the predominant archetype portrayed in virtually every family sitcom you've ever seen, stretches credulity.

How can I feign ignorance on a subject that hasn't even been introduced? I will point out that the Cosby Show, one of the most successful sitcoms of all times, refutes your archtype.

As for daughters growing up to be strippers, Ronald Reagan's daughter Patti posed nude for the July 1992 Playboy.



 
582Perm Dude
      ID: 53038128
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 10:59
But don't you realize, PV, that liberals want no marriage at all, government-paid abortions for their lesbian daughters, and wicca to be officially recognized as the religion of the United States?

It's like Barack "Daddy of my babies" Obama really is a recreational coke user who heads off to darkest Kenya at times, doing sicko things involving rubber, bathhouses, and croissants (they're French, you know).

You know, those liberals aren't really human. But they sure are delicious!
 
583Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 11:32
post 578 is laughable as best, and PV pretty much shot it to pieces so much like the fish in the barrel it was, but i'll respond to a few parts as well.

...the animating liberal philosophy of the last 5 decades holds that marriage is an outdated patriarchal institution inimical to women's happiness, described as virtual slavery and rape frequently.

i've never heard my mother, nor my step-mother discuss marriage in any such terms. nor either of my grandmothers. and we're talking about a family of liberals who have voted democrat since my grandparents first were able to vote.

my maternal grandmother was married for decades, before her husband died unexpectedly in the early 1960s. my paternal grandparents were married nearly 70 years, until my grandfather passed away about 18 months ago.

my dad and my step-mom have been married 28 years, and my step-mom is a dyed-in-the-wool, card-carrying NOW member.

and i think if i were to repeat to ANY of the matriarchs in my family what you said liberals think about marriage and women, they'd think i hung out with some damned crazy people.

Single moms are liberated inspiring heroes.

my mom quit working, and quit pursuing her Master's Degree, to raise me and my brother while my dad worked.

then my folks split, and suddenly, in the middle of texas where women sure as heck were second class citizens, my mom could barely get a job as a secretary. we were on food stamps for awhile, part of the free lunch program, and all that.

and my single mom worked her ass off to make sure my brother and i always had a roof over our heads, always had food on the table, and always had new clothes for every school year - even if it meant that for our birthday our present was a new shirt and a new pair of jeans.

so yea, some single moms are super heroes, because they have to take the hand they're dealt, and find a way to win when the deck is stacked against them.

you talk a lot about things you don't know, and have not personally experienced. thusly, you rely on andecdotes, lies, and mistruths as your source, and it makes you come out looking silly.

 
584boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 11:38
I will point out that the Cosby Show, one of the most successful sitcoms of all times, refutes your archtype. I think cosby show does fit this discription: They portray all male family heads as bungling idiots.
 
585DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 11:52
Yeah, pesky idiot doctors. Can't trust 'em.

(Waits for Boldwin's retort that that show doesn't count because it never would have been portrayed that way if they were white. He won't say it in those words, but that's what he'll mean.)
 
586Razor
      ID: 181051618
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 12:04
Bumbling male characters on sitcoms = liberals hate families

Boy, Baldwin has no use for logic any more.

Wouldn't it be easier for all those family-hating liberal sitcom writers to convey their message of family-hating in a more direct way? You know, constant divorces, extra-marital affairs, gay couples and so on. Nay, they decided to strike where it obviously would have the most impact - idiotic male family heads.
 
587Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 12:29
Here's my biggest problem with the Coulter/Baldwin philosophy that they refuse to acknowledge.

There are times when I actually agree with Coulter, but it's hard to wade through the hubris and generic accusations in order to get to the meat of a subject that she might actually have an intelligent thought about.

Take single mothers, or, more broadly, single parenthood, an issue that I am very familiar with since I am one.
Baldwin, using Coulter's dumbing down technique, claims,

Single moms are liberated inspiring heroes

Single moms and dads come in all sizes and shapes, with diversified conditions and circumstances. Some single moms are liberated inspiring heroes. Some are an irresponsible weight on society that use their single motherhood as victim status to take advantage of every social program and some single moms are outright frauds as they hook up with someone making lots of money, but decline marriage so as to perpetrate a fraud on the state.

It's a complicated world. You can't capsulize single moms into insulting characterizations like it's "a recipe to create criminals, strippers, rapists, murderers."

I doubt that I'm alone in disregarding most anything else she has to say when I read moronic generalizations like that. And those who find statements like that offensive and sophomoric are not restricted to liberals.





 
588DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 12:41
Amen... of course, if you haven't noticed, their "debating" strategy worked pretty well in the early 2000s through about 2005 or so: appeal to people's worst fears, demonize those who disagree with you as unpatriotic, family-hating, socialists, and welfare-stealing crack hos. Meanwhile, ignore any logical fallacy in the arguments of those that agree with you, no matter how glaring it may be.

Are there (a few) examples of those bad types of people in the world? Sure there are. Are they all like that? Of course not. Are a majority, or even a significant minority, like that? Of course not. And more importantly, do the people who value the systems which those people abuse generally think that abuse is a good thing? Of course not.

But it's much easier to argue against demons than to argue against reality. If you don't think that welfare is a worthy program, it's much easier to say it stinks because there are people all over driving up in Hummers and using food stamps than it is to argue against the 40 year old woman who lost her secretarial job because their owner closed up shop and hadn't been able to find one that would support her and her child. Rather than simply say "yup, those Hummer drivers are criminals, lock them up", they blame that entire system.

Granted, it's a style which is not exclusive to only one side--it's an easy trap to fall into, especially when it works so well for so many years.

Hmm. This may be in fact worthy of its own thread. Or not.
 
589Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 12:43
They portray all male family heads as bungling idiots

You think Bill Cosby was portrayed as a bungling idiot in that show?

We must have very different opinions of what constitutes a bumbling idiot.

I would portray Cosby's character in that show as a devoted husband and father, measured in his discipline techniques and constantly available to his wife and children for emotional and social support.

 
590Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 12:55
heck, even a character like Homer Simpson - a bumbling idiot if there ever was one - is a loving family man. over the years, there have been many, many episodes of the Simpsons where no matter what went wrong, the show ended with a "but man, as long as we got family, we're good" theme...
 
591Baldwin
      ID: 410521218
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 20:01
PV

That would be the perfect exception that proves the rule. Bill Cosby deliberately set out to invent a show to counter what was out there as a rule.

But keep looking for examples of sympatheticly portrayed wise male family heads of healthy families in hollywood fare. Surely there a few more. Even with conservative black patriarchs. I bet hollywood loves to encourage that image.
 
592Razor
      ID: 181051618
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 21:01
Explain how this alleged depiction equates to liberals, all of them, hating families.
 
593Baldwin
      ID: 410521218
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 21:14
Sheep tend to listen to their shepherd.

That's an interesting approach tho, 'I challenge you to overgeneralize'.

Following which, what? You were going to notice that I had overgeneralized?
 
594Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 21:20
But keep looking for examples of sympatheticly portrayed wise male family heads of healthy families in hollywood fare.

Growing Pains, Family Ties, MASH(after they switched out to Col Potter and BJ Honeycutt), Good Times(for the black example), Andy Griffith Show, Happy Days, Hannah Montana(for all those single dads) off the top of my head.
 
595Perm Dude
      ID: 60141214
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 21:38
I'm surprised Baldwin would fall into the same hole Dan Quayle fell into, confusing entertainment with real life.

Wait a minute. No I'm not.
 
596Razor
      ID: 181051618
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 21:47
I did not challenge you to overgeneralize. I asked you to explain your overgeneralization. I don't think that's too much to ask.
 
597Baldwin
      ID: 410521218
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 21:49
I'll have to google some of them up as I'm not much into TV. Even you would have to agree that liberalism has taken great pains to mock the 50's 'Father Knows Best' era and image also portrayed in Andy Griffith, tho he wasn't married, And Aunt Bee wasn't married...

and Pa Cartwright wasn't married...hmmm...I wonder how many of those warm fuzzy oldtime shows weren't intact nuclear families after all?

So, I'm curious, PV, you don't think the moral of 'Pleasantville' wasn't a perfectly typical for Hollywood, 'If only these traditional values would just die screaming and then the world would blossom, birds would sing and mankind would learn how to dye fabrics?'
 
598Baldwin
      ID: 410521218
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 21:55
PD

Actually I didn't confuse entertainment with real life. I was talking Hollywood. Razor brought up real life.

This is crazy tho. People here are really going to pretend Hollywood isn't liberal, Hollywood doesn't mock conservative values, the media isn't influential and tied into real life attitudes...

And I'm crazy for perceiving it that way. Oh, and the left isn't dishonest.
 
599Perm Dude
      ID: 60141214
      Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 22:04
Actually, you we're talking about Hollywood at all. Boikin brought up Hollywood and, like everyone else, you took the bait.

You had a better argument before.

But you are right: Shows like 24 which glorify torture and show it working each and every time do, indeed, mock conservative values.
 
600Baldwin
      ID: 410521218
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 03:38
Dunno, is that what they teach at your church?
 
601Perm Dude
      ID: 60141214
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 09:26
They teach that we are responsible for our own behavior. That we need to stop blaming others (such as "Hollywood" or the "MSM") for our own individual failings, as too often blaming takes the form of excuse making.

We're not so concerned with "Hollywood" boogeymen. There are enough real ones out there.

 
602Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 10:20
So, I'm curious, PV, you don't think the moral of 'Pleasantville' wasn't a perfectly typical for Hollywood, 'If only these traditional values would just die screaming and then the world would blossom, birds would sing and mankind would learn how to dye fabrics?'

The moral of 'Pleasantville' is that the world isn't black and white and values don't exist in a vacuum.

The irony of the movie is that the brother, infatuated with the Pleasantville model, becomes disillusioned with the reality of this perfect world, while the sister, the antithesis of the Pleasantville model, becomes more accepting of the conservative values and routine of Pleasantville. In the end, each is enhanced by their Pleasantville experience with a better understanding of their sibling.

Their Pleasantville mother and father find that even though the world around them is changing, and as much as the father resists any change, the bond of their marriage and the love that is the pillar of their relationship(traditional values) is strong enough to overcome these changes.

In the end, we find that the black and white "Father Knows Best" world is a myth that is unsustainable in the nuclear age. When you say 'traditional values,' you really mean 'reactionary values' as characterized by the town's mayor.
In the end the brother retains the positive 'traditional values' from the Pleasantville model even as he comes to appreciate the color that has made Pleasantville a real place in a real world, as opposed to the perfect place where no one ever misses a basket, and, like 'Father Knows Best' and 'Leave It To Beaver', there are no blacks, no Hispanics, no Jews, no Muslims and no Asians.
 
603boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 10:50
Seriously, is that a thematic critique of pleasentville? HAHAHA, I am sorry that just makes me laugh. Here is the way i see it and remember i pretty much agree that the news media and hollywood have a leftward bias, but Hollywood makes movies to make money and if you think that main stream movies are two far left than clearly you have moved to far right to see what people want. Yes Hollywood will make the occasional leftest movie like "lions for Lambs" and guess what it did terrible at the box office. They will also make tons of smaller movies with "leftest" plots but these movies are not marketed to the Boldwins of the world, there are either marketed at their peers in Hollywood to try and get Oscar recognition or to the art house crowd.

Look at some of the top grossing movies this year like "four Christmases" and "marley and me" these do not seem like leftest movies at all and the highest grossing movie of the year, "the dark knight" I would argue is full of rightest plot lines.
 
604Perm Dude
      ID: 60141214
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 11:28
Jesus, what a silly intellectual trap. Why are those on the Right obsessed with "proving" bias in real life by looking at movie reviews? Given the wide breadth of entertainment these days, anyone can spend time in their own perceived bias bubble with never a care for the "other" side.

What a lot of whiners.

The truth is that Hollywood, like any other business, exists to make money. Sometimes that means "conservative" product, sometimes "liberal." But it is always entertainment.

This all reminds me of some hardcore Catholics I know who won't let their kids watch Disney movies because of their Satanic influence.
 
605Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 11:30
People here are really going to pretend Hollywood isn't liberal

Again, I can only go by personal experience, and I grew up with lots of Hollywood exposure.

My Dad's best friend for over 40 years, stuntman and actor Loren Janes is someone I've known since I was a kid.

Loren has always been a staunch conservative. Throughout his long and illustrious Hollywood career, he has worked with just about every top producer and director, from Cecil B DeMille to Stanley Kramer to Mel Brooks to Sylvester Stallone to Martin Scorsese.

Loren and I have both mellowed over the years from the days when we would have heated "discussions" over Vietnam in the late 60s.

Last year when he was here skiing(his son is a ski instructor at Deer Valley Resort in Park City) Loren and I had a long discussion about the state of Hollywood and politics.

Maybe because he's made a good living for 50 years in the movie and TV industry he's more measured than many conservatives in their criticism of Hollywood, but here are a few bullet points from that conversation.

> He's never felt that he was denied a job because he's an avowed conservative

> There are many more conservatives in the industry, from top to bottom than people are led to believe

> Politics isn't discussed much when working on a film or a TV series. Mostly people are too busy working or preparing to work

> Some of his favorite people in the industry are liberals, even if they have polar opposite political ideologies

> Ronald Reagan was a much better politician than actor

 
606Baldwin
      ID: 410521218
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 11:59
> He's never felt that he was denied a job because he's an avowed conservative.

I am pleased to hear it, but then again a stuntman isn't in any position to influence the public's politics and I think Hollywood would treat the next Charleton Heston [as well as the original] considerably differently.

There are many more conservatives in the industry, from top to bottom than people are led to believe

There could hardly be less. Tho I've heard too many who obviously wish it were 'less than zero'.

Politics isn't discussed much when working on a film or a TV series. Mostly people are too busy working or preparing to work

Well what they do on the set is one thing...judging from the results I am still quite sure that Tom Cruise isn't the only one in Hollywood recruiting.

Some of his favorite people in the industry are liberals, even if they have polar opposite political ideologies.

Biliruben is welcome at my table at any point during the coming depression.

Ronald Reagan was a much better politician than actor

Well of course those actors whose only acting skill is portraying their own charismatic character acting naturally, tend to be over-rated as actors.
 
607Baldwin
      ID: 410521218
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 12:04
The truth is that Hollywood, like any other business, exists to make money. Sometimes that means "conservative" product, sometimes "liberal." But it is always entertainment. - PD

Read Micheal Medved. Hollywood is missing out on zillions of potential profits due to the fact that they have as much success connecting with middle america as democrats have convincing anyone they have fellow feeling with the religious.
 
608weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 12:15
PV you are equating an obscure stuntman to actors that have their name at the top of the billing.
If you are a conservative actor you better have already made a name for yourself or you need to be silent if you want to find work.
If you are liberal you can spout off all you want and in most cases you will see an increase in work.
Seriously I wonder how many people could name more than 5 conservative actors.
I doubt most of us here would have any trouble naming 25+ actors with a liberal bent.
 
609boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 12:49
If you are a conservative actor you better have already made a name for yourself or you need to be silent if you want to find work.

Isn't Coldwater Coyotes in the Industry? I sure he would know if that is an accurate statement or not.
 
610Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 13:03
PV you are equating an obscure stuntman to actors that have their name at the top of the billing

No I'm not. I'm just relating the thoughts of someone I've known personally for over 40 years years and has worked in the industry since the mid 50s.

BTW, Loren is not an obscure stuntman, even though he's been mostly retired for 15 years. From his bio:

One of the key figures in the development of modern cinematic stunt design, improved safety procedures and co-founder of the Stuntmen's Association of Motion Pictures & Televsion, Loren Janes ranks alongside Dar Robinson, Hal Needham and Yakima Canutt for his contributions to movie stunt work.

James has lent his athletic skills to many amazing stunt sequences in over 130 feature films, and has doubled for some of Hollywood's biggest stars including Paul Newman, Steve McQueen, Jack Nicholson and even Debbie Reynolds in a career spanning nearly half a century. He has contributed his talents to such spectacular films as The Ten Commandments (1956), Spartacus (1960), The Magnificent Seven (1960), Planet of the Apes (1968), The Towering Inferno (1974) and Beverly Hills Cop (1984)

In August 2001, Janes received the Golden Boot Award, for his Lifetime Achievement in film & TV Westerns, one of the few stuntmen to be so honored.

Served in the U.S. Marines.

Twice qualified for the U.S. Olympic trials Pentathlon.


The point is that there are many people who make up what constitutes Hollywood that you never hear of and aren't famous, and many of these people hold diverse political viewpoints.

If you are a conservative actor you better have already made a name for yourself or you need to be silent if you want to find work.
If you are liberal you can spout off all you want and in most cases you will see an increase in work.


I don't know if those statements can be completely qualified, though there may be some truth. But consider:

But among Republicans, at least, McCain and Giuliani were nearly tied in campaign contributions from entertainment business leaders, according to the latest campaign finance reports.

As of late October, the senator from Arizona had received $390,925 from PACs and individuals in the television, movie and music industries, compared with Giuliani's $379,126, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

On Jan. 31, immediately following the GOP debate at the Ronald Reagan library, McCain will headline a fundraiser at the home of MGM Chairman and CEO Harry Sloan.

A favorite of veteran entertainment and media moguls, McCain has received donations from Jerry Bruckheimer, Barry Diller, Kirk Kerkorian, Richard Parsons, Lorne Michaels and Brad Grey, and from a handful of character actors including Rip Torn and Dick Van Patten.

"McCain's support in Hollywood goes back to the 2000 election, when he had so much backing from independents, and then in 2004, due to his friendship with John Kerry," said Sloan.

Actors Adam Sandler, Kelsey Grammer and Robert Duvall have all weighed in for the former New York mayor, along with Brad Grey and 24 producer Joel Surnow. (Duvall held a fundraiser for Giuliani at his Virginia horse country home.)

Others on Giuliani's list: actors Jon Voight (who is stumping in Florida with Giuliani), Ron Silver and Melissa Gilbert, comedian Dennis Miller, publicist Michael Levine and many so-called "below-the-line" workers who toil in less glamorous parts of the trade.

Longtime Hollywood GOP standard-bearer Lionel Chetwynd is also a Giuliani supporter, as is Steven Spielberg's attorney Bruce Ramer, former studio heads Frank Price and Frank Mancuso, and the droning comedy actor/ex-quiz show host/financial pundit Ben Stein. (Guiliani won a whopping $750 of Stein's money.)

Naked Gun director David Zucker donated $2,100 to Giuliani's campaign — $200 short of the maximum allowed — and has met the candidate twice.


link
 
611Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 13:29
those are some mighty big names.

while i was at my previous job (SHILL: i was laid off 8 weeks ago, so if anyone has any connections, help! lol), among our top selling DVDs were the Left Behind series, and any of the films related to them.

they are, what we referred to, as "end-time thrillers", but to those in the know, these films, starring everyone from kirk cameron to lou gossett jr to howie mandel and a slew of pretty well known names, were, Christian films. perhaps they were out of the hollywood mainstream, but they made TONS of money.
 
612Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 13:29
If you are a conservative actor you better have already made a name for yourself or you need to be silent if you want to find work.

Who are all these liberal actors who's politics became known before they were well established? Do you believe aspiring actors seeking their first big break walk into an audition or a reading for a part spouting off Mao quotes?


This is just the most ridiculous thing. Does it really not occur to you that acting simply draws liberal types?

How many serious drama/theatre students from your high school are likely conservatives today?

Are conservative or liberal parents more likely to be supportive of their sons taking an active role in theatre?

For 99.99% of aspiring actors, attempting a career in acting means accepting a lifestyle of financial uncertainty that most people with strong conservaite worldviews would seek to avoid.

Careers in the logging pharmaceutical industries, for example, are more conducive to a rightist worldview. Given the success of Medved's BS, it's too bad those industries aren't more glamorous. I bet could do pretty well trashing Pfizer for shutting liberals out of their executive paygrade.
 
613boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 15:20
Does it really not occur to you that acting simply draws liberal types?

good point, I am not sure if that addresses the issue of whether or not producers, directors, and writers also come from liberal back grounds.
 
614Boldwin
      ID: 52044193
      Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 15:21
Most outrageous 'news item' of 2008.
'Media Bias Largely Unseen in Presidential Race' - Reuters
 
615DWetzel on BB
      ID: 559392915
      Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 16:33
If Brent Baker had any journalistic credentials, he'd respond to the assertion (corroborated by.a McCain campaign guy, mind you) that favorable coverage followed favorable poll results with either specific examples where this was not true, or would present data showing this was not the case.

Instead, he doesn't bother except with a "wink wink, nudge nudge, we can just ignore facts because we know I am right" pile of junk which is almost cute in its naïve arrogance.

In other news, boldwin's nom de plume is at last revealed.
 
616Jag
      ID: 59012245
      Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 06:13
Even the Seagulls were in Awe

Are we going to hear this crap for 4 years?

Offering the most hyperbolic take of the night on the crowds who attended President Obama's inauguration, on World News ABC's Bill Weir delighted in wondering “can national pride make a freezing day feel warmer?” He decided it can indeed since “never have so many people shivered so long with such joy” while “from above, even the seagulls must have been awed by the blanket of humanity.” Weir was certainly awed.

I am pretty sure American Idol got better ratings.

I believe during Bush inauguration, they just made comments about how expensive it was and Americans were tired of it.
 
617Baldwin
      ID: 140312221
      Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 07:50
And they were surprised anyone showed up for Nixon's funeral, let alone massive tearful crowds. Was I ever enjoying shadenfreud over their flumoxed 'awe' that day.
 
618Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 12:52
Jag and Baldwin - make as many sarcastic, snide, and stupid remarks as you'd like. it only furthers to cast you into the cold and look like fools who would hold up progress.

the fact of the matter, is that it was a momentous day, and for the majority of this country, it was a day of celebration, of joyous tears, of progress being made, and, most importantly, the fact that America can, and does act accordingly when the chips are down.

Jay - I am pretty sure American Idol got better ratings.

which goes to show you just how out of touch you are, as it simply wasn't even close.

American Idol had a rating of about 16.0, with about 30 million people watching.

meanwhile, 37.8 million people watched the Obama inauguration, with ratings hovering around 29.

additionally, there were about 1.3 million people watching it live on cnn.com (a record for the largest watched live event on the internet), and that number doesn't even count the people who watched it live on OTHER internet sites.

so, you were saying, Jag?
 
619Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 21:29
When Bush took office his excersize regimen garnered press attention...
The president was described by his doctors in his annual physical as being in "superior" condition for a man his age.

He takes pride in his six-day-a-week workout regimen...

Bush says exercise helps sharpen his thinking.

But some of his critics view his exercise obsession as an indulgence that takes time away from other priorities.

Among them is Cindy Sheehan...

Sheehan, who left her vigil on Thursday to tend to her sick mother, has said she believes Bush should take fewer bike rides to have more time to focus on the "the nation's work."

__________________


LA Times columnist Jonathan Chait was at his Bush-deranged worst in July of that same year:
..... Bush has an obsession with exercise that borders on the creepy.

An opinion piece for the Los Angeles Times headlined, The (over)exercise of power. Recounting how President Bush ran 3 1/2 miles a day and preached more cross-training to a federal judge, Chait fumed: Am I the only person who finds this disturbing?What I mean is the fact that Bush has an obsession with exercise that borders on the creepy.

Given the importance of his job, it is astonishing how much time Bush has to exercise.

There’s no denying that the results are impressive. Bush can bench press 185 pounds five times, and, before a recent knee injury, he ran three miles at a 6-minute, 45-second pace. That’s better than I could manage when I played two sports in high school. And I wasn’t holding the most powerful office on Earth. Which is sort of my point: Does the leader of the free world need to attain that level of physical achievement?

______________________
______________________

When Obama took office, Obama's excersize regimine garnered media attention...
The 1,233-word ode to Os physical fitness read more like a Harlequin romance novel than an A-1 news article.
Sighed smitten reporter Eli Zaslow: The sun glinted off chiseled pectorals sculpted during four weightlifting sessions each week, and a body toned by regular treadmill runs and basketball games. Drool cup to the newsroom, stat.
Zaslow imparted us with vital information about buff Bams regimen: Obama has gone to the gym for about 90 minutes a day, for at least 48 days in a row. The Washington Post enlightened us with more gushing commentary from Obama friends and associates who explain how, as the subtitle of Zaslows opus put it, Gym Workouts Help Obama Carry the Weight of His Position.
For adoring journalists, you see, Obamas workout fanaticism demonstrates his discipline and balance in his life. Apparently, whats good for Obamas glistening pecs is good for the country. Zaslow quoted Obama Chicago crony Marty Nesbitt, who offered this diagnosis: He doesnt think of it as something he has to do — its his time for himself, a chance for him to reflect. Its his break. He feels better and more revved up after he gets in his workout.
And when Obama feels better, the skies will part, the sun will shine (in moderate, environmentally-correct, non-global warming-inducing amounts, of course) and peace will reign worldwide!

Too bad the doughy, McDonalds-chomping, coffee-guzzling members of the White House press corps couldnt see the merits of White House exercise over the past eight years. After giggling about his out-of-shape colleagues in the media, Zaslow mentioned in passing that President George W. Bush shares Obamas commitment to health. What he failed to acknowledge is that the same reporters who so greatly admire Obamas lithe figure derided Bush for his training schedule.







 
620Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Wed, Jan 28, 2009, 22:11
so, two reporters writing about different things is an example of media bias?

infinite monkeys. keep trying.
 
621boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 10:04
so, two reporters writing about different things is an example of media bias? they seem to me to all be writing about the workout habits of the two presidents.
 
622Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 10:32
right. one discussed the work out habits of Bush. the other, the work out habits of Obama. it was not one writer comparing and contrasting the two, showing an obvious bias toward one.
 
623Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 10:50
My recollection of the coverage of Bush's regular exercise is that it was all positive. The first excerpt provided by Baldwin is not an exception. Here's the article in it's entirety:
Bush tests his mettle in bike ride with Armstrong
Posted on: Saturday, 20 August 2005, 15:27 CDT

By Caren Bohan

CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - President George W. Bush, an avid mountain biker, got a chance to test his mettle against cycling superstar Lance Armstrong on Saturday.

The seven-time Tour de France champion joined the president for a two-hour, 17-mile trek through the canyons and river-crossings of Bush's 1,600-acre Texas ranch.

Armstrong, a fellow Texan and Bush friend who nonetheless disagrees with the president on the Iraq war, called it a "dream scenario" to cycle with the president.

While many Americans wonder what attracts Bush to the Prairie Chapel ranch, where is he spending the month of August, Armstrong said he thought the biking opportunities were a big draw.

"He rides his mountain bike fanatically," Armstrong said in a recent interview with ABC's This Week. "It might be the mountain bike trails he has there."

Armstrong, 33, called Bush "one competitive dude," but said in the ABC interview he had no doubt he could outpace Bush, even though trails can be challenging for road cyclists unaccustomed to rough, rocky terrain.

"He's a good rider," Bush was said to have remarked about Armstrong after the ride, which featured only one 10-minute break to admire a waterfall on the property.

White House spokesman Trent Duffy said Armstrong was careful to respect "the first rule of biking," a hint that he did not overtake the president.

Duffy said he did not know whether Bush discussed politics with Armstrong, who has spoken out against the war in Iraq. Armstrong has said he believes the money could be better spent on other things, such as fighting cancer.

Armstrong, a cancer survivor who at one time was given a less than 50-50 chance of beating the disease, sits on the president's panel on cancer research and heads a nonprofit cancer foundation.

Armstrong and the Secret Service agents and staff members who rode with Bush were presented T-shirts that said "Tour de Crawford" and "Peloton One" -- a reference to the French word for group -- as well as a pair of riding socks with the presidential seal.

Bush, 59, took up mountain biking after a knee injury forced him to give up jogging a couple of years ago. But he has taken a few well-publicized spills, including one in Scotland last month when he collided with a police officer.

The president was described by his doctors in his annual physical as being in "superior" condition for a man his age.

He takes pride in his six-day-a-week workout regimen and last week he showcased the statistics on his heart rate monitor for a group of reporters who rode with him. The monitor showed he burned 1,493 calories in a two-hour ride, also 17 miles.

Bush says exercise helps sharpen his thinking.

But some of his critics view his exercise obsession as an indulgence that takes time away from other priorities.

Among them is Cindy Sheehan, the Vacaville, California, mother of a soldier killed in Iraq, who until late last week was camped out down the road from Bush's ranch seeking a meeting with him to discuss her opposition to the war.

Sheehan, who left her vigil on Thursday to tend to her sick mother, has said she believes Bush should take fewer bike rides to have more time to focus on the "the nation's work."
Does anyone wonder why Baldwin didn't bother to provide a link to that one? Perhaps because it is 90% fluff piece featuring Bush trading compliments with Lance Armstrong (at the height of Armstrong's popularity, no less) with exactly two sentence (the last two sentences) devoted to a ridiculous opposition opinion?

And of course the second excerpt is not a news article but an opinion piece by a columnist with a known anti-Bush bent.

BFD.
 
624boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 10:51
it was not one writer comparing and contrasting the two, showing an obvious bias toward one. no but there is negative implications in the ones about bush's exercise program while there are positive implications around the Obama one and if you can not see that then you will never see any bias. With that said i am sure Baldwin had to look pretty far to find the negative bush stories because if i remember correctly it seemed like Bush's exercise program was seen in the same positive light as the Obama one.
 
625Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 10:55
Show me a MSM piece accusing Obama of neglecting his handling of 'the Great Depression II' by over-exercizing, as the numerous examples I provided do Bush. At the time of course Bush had nowhere near the crisis Obama has on his hands.
 
626Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 11:05
Show me a handling of 'the Great Depression II' by over-exercizing, as the numerous examples I provided do Bush.

If a fluff piece that ends with a ridiculous opposition quote from Cindy Sheehan counts as an "MSM piece accusing Obama of neglecting" his responsibilities, then all I have to do is recall the media coverage of John McCain's false claims that Obama "made time to go to the gym, but canceled a visit with wounded troops" while in Germany last year.
 
627Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 11:06
It's also rather amusiong tha the pathetic sources you've cited in post 619 count as numerous examples.
 
628Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 11:15
ABC News - July 17th 2008
ABC News' Sunlen Miller Reports: While Obama spent 91 minutes at a campaign event yesterday, the Illinois Senator spent a total of 188 minutes in the gym yesterday – making three separate stops to Chicago gyms over the course of one day.


Senator Obama has been known for his strict work out regimen – rarely missing a day in the gym even with a busy campaign schedule. But for reporters following Senator Obama as he strolled in and out of gyms six times over the course of one day - his multiple visits raised a few eyebrows – with even a campaign aide cracking a smile as the third gym stop of the day was announced.

Obama left the East Bank Club at 9 pm last night. A mere 11 hours later he was back in the gym again on Thursday morning.

The campaign later explained the multiple gym visits and said that during his first morning workout the Senator received a phone call interrupting his workout, which prompted his second complete workout.
 
629Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 11:25
Wall Street Journal 8.1.08 - Too Fit to Be President?
But in a nation in which 66% of the voting-age population is overweight and 32% is obese, could Sen. Obama's skinniness be a liability? Despite his visits to waffle houses, ice-cream parlors and greasy-spoon diners around the country, his slim physique just might have some Americans wondering whether he is truly like them.


"He's too new ... and he needs to put some meat on his bones," says Diana Koenig, 42, a housewife in Corpus Christi, Texas, who says she voted for Sen. Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary.

"I won't vote for any beanpole guy," another Clinton supporter wrote last week on a Yahoo politics message board.

The last overweight president to be elected was 335-pound William Howard Taft in 1908. As for tall and lanky presidents, "you might have to go back to Abraham Lincoln" in 1860, says presidential historian Stephen Hess. "Most presidents were sort of in the middle."


But too much time in the gym can cause problems, as Sen. Obama learned last month after he made three stops to local Chicago gyms in one day, for a total of 188 minutes. The marathon workout session sparked a widely circulated Associated Press article titled "Obama Becomes a Gym Rat." In it, the reporter wrote, "Sometimes it's hard to tell if Barack Obama is running for president of the United States or Mr. Universe."

Republicans have recently picked up on the senator's fitness regimen. On Wednesday, the McCain campaign launched a new ad titled "Celeb" that compares Sen. Obama to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears. In a memo to reporters explaining the ad, McCain campaign manager Rick Davis wrote, "Only celebrities like Barack Obama go to the gym three times a day."

 
630Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 11:56
Baldwin? Where'd Baldwin go?
 
631Tree
      ID: 33042911
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 12:13
Baldwin? Where'd Baldwin go?

he went out for a jog. if you look out your window, you might even catch a glimpse as the sun glints off his chiseled pectorals.
 
632DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 12:45
I was going to guess surfing World Net Daily to see if he can dig anything up on the Clintons.
 
633boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 13:57
Obama has gone to the gym for about 90 minutes a day, for at least 48 days in a row.

for that much working out he does not seem in that good of shape.
 
634Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 14:20
for that much working out he does not seem in that good of shape.

the dude is pushing 50, and has a four-pack on his abs. he's in excellent shape.

prior to hurting my shoulder, i was doing 60 minutes a day in the gym 5 days a week, and i still had a small gut.

90 minutes is nothing. guys who have to stay in shape for a living (pro wrestlers, for example), will spend hours and hours in the gym every day.
 
635boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 15:20
the dude is pushing 50, and has a four-pack on his abs. he's in excellent shape. the only reason i made that comment is i have know people in there 60's that are competitive triathletes and runners train less 10.5 hours a week and have played basketball with guys in there late 40's that would run circles around high school players. i just figured he would look even more "athletic" than he does, i never thought he was out of shape.
 
636Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 15:41
Is that the editorial side of the WSJ? If so that doesn't count as the MSM. They are at war with the rest of their own liberal paper in the culture war.

Good God. Next you will be telling me 'Investor's Business Daily', Fox News, Rush, Ann Coulter and talk radio are MSM so the MSM is balanced.

"Where is Baldwin?"

Still semi-retired from the poliboard so don't act like I wear your ball and chain and see the batman beacon go off whenever you post.

If either, you guys would stop being so over-the-top insufferably crazy or some conservatives would show up and fight you on this crap, I'd be a fully retired poster by now.
 
637Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 15:42
Tree

...and stop fantasizing about my pecs. 8]
 
638Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 16:12
Baldwin is the black knight in denial.

I could write a post explaining that, despite Baldwin's twisted perspective, mainstream simply means prevelant and that the most simple and accurate way to determine whether a particular media outlet or personality qualifies as mainstream media is to consider the number of people he/she/it reaches by looking at relative circulation, TV ratings, website hits/pageviews and book sales.

But I've written that post probably a dozen times here in the past decade and Old Baldy still has yet to form an effective response and still pretends to have never considered these points before, so I might as well just allow his delusion to continue and let the lurkers decide for themselves whether the opinion page at the Wall Street Journal is really less mainstream than that of the LA Times or whether MSNBC is really any more mainstream than FOX News Channel, which for years has been boasting something like double MSNBC's ratings, or whether "MSM" is, as Old Baldy believes, a synonym of "liberal".

So instead I'll simply point out that Old Baldy is still proven DEAD-ASS WRONG in his pathetic contention that Obama has avoided any mainstream criticism (even by both his own narrow and dubious standards of both 'mainstream' and 'criticism') in posts 626 and 628.
 
639Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 16:22
Fine MITH, just for you we can agree to always include a disclaimer admitting that there is a miniscule .0001% conservative beachhead in the MSM in the WSJ op ed page. Additionally one, count 'em, one media mogal realized that one half the public wasn't being served at all and created Fox News to service those who couldn'
t stand news with liberal spin 100% of the time.

As soon as liberals treat Fox News as legitimate news I'll even admit they are MSM. Can I use them as a link source without PD throwing a cow or someone calling them Faux News? When the day comes that they are treated like mainstream media I will call them mainstream media.
 
641Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 16:34
As soon as liberals treat Fox News as legitimate news I'll even admit they are MSM.

HA! Liberals dictate YOUR definition of what is mainstream now!

When the day comes that they are treated like mainstream media I will call them mainstream media.

YOU ARE ON A ROLL! What's the standard for being "treated like mainstream media"? I guess I'll research how you "treat" the New York Times for my answer!
 
642Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 16:36
Let's also say, when the zeitgeist calls them mainstream. The zeitgeist is by definition mainstream, no?
 
643Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 16:41
The zeitgeist is by definition mainstream, no?

While I can't be exactly sure of what you precisely mean by that term, I can say with relative confidence that I don't likely acknowledge your zeitgeist.
 
644Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 16:47
We don't each get our own zeitgeist. Lol!
 
645Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 16:58
Right, but what's the modern spirit of the time? That which leads to Obama being the most popular president since Reagan? Or that which leads to the GOP being the dominant political party of the past half-century?

Does the zeitgeist watch cable news? If CNN counts as MSM then by your definition they do - and the zeitgeist has chosen FNC over CNN and MSNBC.

Does the zeitgeist read political books? Who is the top political author today?

Which talk radio personalities have the zeitgeist chosen?


Really, can there even be a political zeitgeist in such a politically polarized society?
 
646Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 17:33
Whichever dominates this particular moment.

Does the zeitgeist watch cable news? If CNN counts as MSM then by your definition they do - and the zeitgeist has chosen FNC over CNN and MSNBC.

Liberal spinners managed to bannish balanced or conservative news channels to cable and still hold a monopoly on network news. When the network anchors lose their cachet, their perceived gravitas and the average viewer considers Fox News as the gold standard or a co-holder of the gold standard, then I will agree with you.

Does the zeitgeist read political books? Who is the top political author today?

If you believe Ann Coulter dominates the intellectual fashion of the moment...

She may have truth and logic on her side, but she'll rule the zeitgeist when she can get enuff traction to move the age.

Which talk radio personalities have the zeitgeist chosen?

Which begs the real issue, conservatives have been relegated off network TV, into the radio ghetto, soon to be swept even farther off the radar into satelite radio.

Sweeping like-minded people into a ghetto and out of easy viewing does not make them the dominant force in society. If their ideas can dominate for a time even with this handicap, that is a miracle. If they could force their way into preeminance on the big three TV networks, then you could start talking about them controlling the spirit of the age.

If they controlled the universities you could say they had the zeitgeist by the tail.

If they controlled all three branches of government you could say they were the zeitgeist.
 
647Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 19:47
i know mith has said it a million times, and i know he even repeated it a few minutes ago, but i am always baffled by the absurdity of Baldwin's claims.

fact of the matter is that Fox News, Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, and all those mucky mucks are as main stream as it gets.

THEY are the main stream media.

they are more main stream than, say, Air American, if that thing is even still on the air.

They are more mainstream - simply by the fact they have a wider audience - than most left wing pundits.

you can keep having your pity party Baldwin, but the simple fact of the matter is that the people you support the most are the true main stream. period.
 
648Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 22:52
So why does the supposed 'mainstream' have to put up NBC, CBS and ABC news insulting them and their values and spinning the news away from their POV?
 
649Razor
      ID: 56038210
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 22:54
Because Fox News isn't news. It's an editorial with actual news occasionally sprinkled in.
 
650Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Thu, Jan 29, 2009, 23:45
So why does the supposed 'mainstream' have to put up NBC, CBS and ABC news insulting them and their values and spinning the news away from their POV?

THEY DON'T. it's called changing the channel.

that's why they watch and listen to the trash that is Fox, Coulter, and Limbaugh, before eventually realizing they are complete distortions of the truth, before turning back to the network news of their parents and grandparents.
 
651Baldwin
      ID: 180202819
      Fri, Jan 30, 2009, 05:17
Conservatives actually did control the zeitgeist for a decade and a weak argument could be made that they continue to do so until 'liberal' isn't a word liberals have to run away from to get elected.

Nevertheless there is something fundamentally wrong with the fact that even at their peak, they still had to turn to channel 99 to get news that wasn't being spun by guys rotating between stints in the Dem party apparatus and back to the MSM.

Where is the conservative show between channels 2-11? You would think at least one would sneak in by accident if they were mainstream.
 
652Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Fri, Jan 30, 2009, 06:39
it's not 1950 anymore Baldwin. Channels 2-11 are no longer the exclusive domain of the mainstream.

also, there's this thing called the internet.
 
653Baldwin
      ID: 2003312
      Sat, Jan 31, 2009, 04:39
When ABC, NBC and CBS shrug their shoulders, closes the doors on their news operations and admits no one believes what they say anymore, maybe then I'll agree with you, but I don't think we are there yet.
 
654Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Sat, Jan 31, 2009, 06:55
Where is the conservative show between channels 2-11

Judge Judy seems conservative.
 
655Seattle Zen
      ID: 321261311
      Fri, Feb 13, 2009, 18:09


Yes, newspapers need to do something to stay afloat. I, for one, won't shed a tear when the 10 pound Sunday editions go the way of the horse buggy, such a waste of trees. But I think we can all agree that we need professional news reporters, for there can be no blogs without newspaper stories to link.
 
656rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 21:43
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-napolitano14-2009feb14,0,7925305.story

I have no idea whether the media is biased, but i read an article about Grace Napolitano in the La Times. She's a Democrat. i find it curious that I couldn't find the article in the NYT. When i Google it, i find it at many other sources.

(alleged) bias aside, we are living in a screwed up country.
 
657 name
      ID: 1211215
      Mon, Mar 02, 2009, 16:11
BP3Bhe
 
658Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 09:24
Leftist Ex-CNN Reporter Wins El Salvador Presidency
 
659Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 10:01
What does that story have to do with bias in mainstream media? Do we have to once again change the meaning of that term again to now include CNN En Espanol?
 
660Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 10:31
 
661Pancho Villa
      ID: 12291420
      Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 10:35
#660 is a response to #659?

Why not just post a picture of a white flag?
 
662Perm Dude
      ID: 29211415
      Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 10:45
Kind of ironic that in this thread about "liberal media bias" that Boxman links to an AP story on FOX in which they deliberately changed the title from the original Associated Press title to a more confrontational tone.
 
663Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 10:58
Interesting the length he had to go to in order to trump the mental imagery he provided the last time he responded to one of my posts.

Has tree ever posted an image more repulsive and juvenile than that?

I wonder what treasure Boxman has saved for next time.
 
664Tree
      ID: 61411921
      Mon, Mar 16, 2009, 12:01
wow. i fold. no more images from me. i can't top that.

anyway, the best part about Boxman's link is that he offers no insight nor thought into it, and most likely, didn't even read the article, which, among other things, states that Funes is:

a moderate plucked from outside the ranks of the rebel-group-turned-political-party Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front
who
promised Monday to unite the country after a bitter presidential campaign
and said
"This is not the time for revenge. This is time for political understanding," he told a rally of roaring supporters early Monday. "The time has come for the excluded, the opportunity has arrived for genuine democrats, for men and women who believe in social justice and solidarity."

seems to me that whatever kind of conservative Boxman is, he sure seems to be against people who want to heal divides and bring nations together.
 
665Baldwin
      ID: 10258919
      Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 08:00
C'mon guys, lets all at least drink half a cup. - Tree at Jonestown
 
666Tree
      ID: 61411921
      Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 10:52
Baldwin -

feel free to comment on the issue.

but if you're such a f*cking idiot at this point that all you can do is be critical of me, then do us all a favor and shut up.

i've noticed that since Boxman's link with no comment, and follow up picture posting, neither him nor you - flagbearers of the retard-con movement on this board, have had nothing of use to say.

typical. cut and run.
 
667Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 11:19
Figures Tree would get post number 666.
 
668Tree
      ID: 61411921
      Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 13:28
Figures Boxman would again post something irrelevant.

and as the song says, "the sinners are much more fun..."
 
669boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 09:54
I have been reading a lot recently about the death of news papers. I was wonder what people think of their demise and potential consequences. In general i believe this to be determent to society as a whole. Looking at the links posted in the forum I see that most people here are comfortable getting there news from the Internet, I also see that people comfortable getting there news from clearly left and right biased news outlets. But this does not worry me as much as the question of who is going to cover local events and will I just end up having less news more focused on single topics. I believe this will become more and more common as internet media outlets begin to target there stories to biggest audience by just looking at hit counters for each story. While newspaper and even TV to some degree does not have this advantage and is forced to cover more stories because they can not accurately tell who is reading what.

I know there is a lot of comment about MSM here but what about the future of it as revenue streams decrease and change. Will the future of news be more or less biased?
 
670Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 10:20
I have been reading a lot recently about the death of news papers. I was wonder what people think of their demise and potential consequences.

I think it's great. Physical print newspaper uses a lot of resources to make that aren't technologically relevant anymore. If you buy a newspaper its almost like you're subsidizing the horse and buggy industry to stave off the automobile.

I also see that people comfortable getting there news from clearly left and right biased news outlets.

Yeah that's a huge problem because all it'll do is polarize the country even more. Then again, its not like you can say the NYT is down the middle.

But this does not worry me as much as the question of who is going to cover local events

No I think that can get solved. The smaller papers can have their own website and send the reporters out.

Will the future of news be more or less biased?

Its bad now and it'll only get worse. More biased, much more so.
 
671boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 10:35
No I think that can get solved. The smaller papers can have their own website and send the reporters out.

But who is going to pay for this, Online versions of newspapers do not have nearly the revenue streams that their printed versions do.
 
672Perm Dude
      ID: 193231017
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 10:46
I completely agree, boikin. And while the demise of newspapers has been not-so-quietly cheered on by bloggers, wide and pervasive newspaper coverage is necessary in a democratic society.

I get a little angry at newspaper reporter's hubris (just like I do at some self-important bloggers, who remind me of rich kids throwing a tantrum sometimes). But public information and civic involvement are often directly related to newspaper use.
 
673Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 12:23
I think clearly the medium of newspaper is dead. Why wait for something to be delivered to your door when you can get it on your computer or iPhone or television or radio?

Of course, this is having the unintended (well, sometimes) consequence of killing professional journalism, which I think is a huge problem. The Right has spent the last couple of decades attacking the news media, and I think people are more accepting of the death of this than they should be. Truthful, unbiased, professional journalism is a foundation of any free, enlightened society. If we try to replace newspapers with the blogosphere, we are going to be suffering the consequences for a long time as standards of objectivity and truth will fall by the wayside. For that reason, I think we have a vested interest in subsidizing professional journalism in some form if it cannot survive on its own.
 
674Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 14:34
I don't want to subsidize it. How about you subsidize it and leave me alone.
 
675Perm Dude
      ID: 193231017
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 14:53
How are you subsidizing newspapers?
 
676boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 15:02
I think razor is saying we are going to need to subsidize journalism. I have read about the idea that newspaper to survive will end up being ran as non-profits, like NPR or PBS.
 
677Seattle Zen
      ID: 443561314
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 15:57
Blogs have certainly not brought about the impending or actual downfall of newspapers, it is and will be the loss of classified ad revenue since the introduction of Craigslist and Monster.com and it's contemporaries.

I don't foresee very many small markets attracting hard working, talented businessmen and writers to produce newspapers without any profit motive.

Everyone here reads stories written by journalists who can only be journalists because their employers make money. Except for Building Seven who reads crazy ass paranoid ramblings about fictitious conspiracies written by middle aged men living in their parents' basement. We'll leave you alone, B7 ;)
 
678Building 7
      ID: 1043249
      Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 23:13
That's not true.......some of them have their own apartment.
 
679Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 01:51
SZ

The irony being that Pajamas Media actually turns a profit.
 
680Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 01:52
And cares about the truth, unlike the legacy media.
 
681Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 06:26
Boldwin: Wait until the gov't nationalizes the newspapers, it won't matter if they turn a profit or breakeven, just like any other governmental division.
 
682Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 07:57
It won't even matter if they print it as no one with a brain believes it anyway.
 
683Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 08:46
Seeing as how PBS and NPR produce some of the best news coverage, the argument that the government would fail in its efforts to support newspapers seems weak.
 
684Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 09:35
The best in depth biased reporting my stolen tax dollars can buy.
 
685baldwin
      ID: 55220277
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 09:53
baldwin - you don't have to pay taxes.

you're choosing to do so.
 
686Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 10:36
NPR and PBS are not appreciably biased. And certainly someone whose most credible source is worldnetdaily is in no place to judge.
 
687Perm Dude
      ID: 18351159
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 10:52
NPR has a bit of bias. PBS, not so at all.

This argument happens all the time in the UK, BTW, where the BBC is paid for by the government.
 
688Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 11:11
baldwin - you don't have to pay taxes.

you're choosing to do so.


that was me who posted that. apparently, my treo, much like Baldwin sometimes, is just a machine.

anyway, Baldwin, you are choosing to pay taxes. you don't have to pay them.
 
689Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 11:55
You description of a mugging sounds a lot like PD's.
 
690Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:31
again, you are making a choice to pay taxes. it's your decision.
 
691Perm Dude
      ID: 18351159
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:33
I have no idea of where baldwin believes paying taxes is a real "choice."

This is like "choosing" to not to hit someone with a bat: Sure, you have the option I suppose. But you then have to face the consequences of your action.

 
692Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:10
America, love it or leave it, right? isn't that what we learned over the last 8 years.

this country, in part, came to be, because of taxation without representation.

we vote for our leaders. we pay taxes to support infrastructure so we have roads which helps bring food to our tables and deliver material to put roofs over our heads.

you dont want to pay taxes, no one is forcing you to stay here.
 
693Perm Dude
      ID: 18351159
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:11
Rights cost money.
 
694Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 17:47
we pay taxes to support infrastructure so we have roads which helps bring food to our tables and deliver material to put roofs over our heads.

Oh if that were the only thing we paid taxes for...
 
695Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:02
So the poor don't have rights? Is that what you are saying, PD?
 
696Perm Dude
      ID: 533361517
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:37
Nope. Try again.
 
697Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 19:34
Rights are inalienable and the free possession of all mankind?
 
698boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 11:41
Rights are inalienable and the free possession of all mankind?

but the protection of said rights is not.
 
699Perm Dude
      ID: 12325168
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 11:49
Baldwin: I mean Rights cost money.

A simple concept, but one that the "liberterian" often misses.
 
700Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 10:08
Media Having Trouble Finding Right Angle On Obama's Double-Homicide

WASHINGTON—More than a week after President Barack Obama's cold-blooded killing of a local couple, members of the American news media admitted Tuesday that they were still trying to find the best angle for covering the gruesome crime.

"I know there's a story in there somewhere," said Newsweek editor Jon Meacham, referring to Obama's home invasion and execution-style slaying of Jeff and Sue Finowicz on Apr. 8. "Right now though, it's probably best to just sit back and wait for more information to come in. After all, the only thing we know for sure is that our president senselessly murdered two unsuspecting Americans without emotion or hesitation."

Added Meacham, "It's not so cut and dried."

Associated Press reporters investigate any possible gym training regimens the president might have used to get into peak physical condition for the murders.

Since the killings took place, reporters across the country have struggled to come up with an appropriate take on the ruthless crime, with some wondering whether it warrants front-page coverage, and others questioning its relevance in a fast-changing media landscape.

"What exactly is the news hook here?" asked Rick Kaplan, executive producer of the CBS Evening News. "Is this an upbeat human-interest story about a 'day in the life' of a bloodthirsty president who likes to kill people? Or is it more of an examination of how Obama's unusual upbringing in Hawaii helped to shape the way he would one day viciously butcher two helpless citizens in their own home?"

"Or maybe the story is just that murder is cool now," Kaplan continued. "I don't know. There are a million different angles on this one."

So far, the president's double-homicide has not been covered by any major news outlets. The only two mentions of the heinous tragedy have been a 100-word blurb on the Associated Press wire and an obituary on page E7 of this week's edition of the Lake County Examiner.

While Obama has expressed no remorse for the grisly murders—point-blank shootings with an unregistered .38-caliber revolver—many journalists said it would be irresponsible for the press to sensationalize the story.

"There's been some debate around the office about whether we should report on this at all," Washington Post senior reporter Bill Tracy said while on assignment at a local dog show. "It's enough of a tragedy without the press jumping in and pointing fingers or, worse, exploiting the violence. Plus, we need to be sensitive to the victims' families at this time. Their loved ones were brutally, brutally murdered, after all."

Nevertheless, a small contingent of independent journalists has begun to express its disapproval and growing shock over the president's actions.
"I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but we are in the midst of an economic crisis here," political pundit Marcus Reid said. "Why was our president ritualistically dismembering the corpses of his prey when he should have been working on a new tax proposal for small businesses? I, for one, am outraged."

The New York Times newsroom is reportedly still undecided on whether or not to print a recent letter received from Obama, in which the president threatens to kill another helpless citizen every Tuesday and "fill [his] heavenly palace with slaves for the afterlife" unless the police "stop the darkness from screaming."

"President Obama's letter presents us with a classic journalistic quandary," executive editor Bill Keller said. "If we print it, then we're giving him control over the kinds of stories we choose to run. It would be an acknowledgment that we somehow give the nation's commander in chief special treatment."

Added Keller, "And that's just not how the press in this country works

- The Onion
 
701Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 10:25
well, at least there is a tiny shred of a sense of humour in your body, Baldwin.

funny stuff..

err, wait. you probably think that's a serious article. (i bet this is the part where you call me a dim wit or a nit wit or something similar. i await your use of a thesaurus...
 
702Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 12:33
Greenwald notes that the mainstream media has not picked up the anti-torture flag
Karl Rove on torture prosecutions:
It is now clear that the Obama White House didn't think before it tried to appease the hard left of the Democratic Party.
Gloria Borger on Karl Rove:
When Rove speaks, the political class pays attention -- usually with good reason.
Chuck Todd on Obama's concession that the DOJ decides whether to prosecute:
There does seem to be a little bit of a reaction to how this was received on the left. . . frankly this feels like a political food fight now. . .. The hard left, the hard right, fighting over this in the blogosphere.
Chris Matthews on the same topic:
This whole torture debate is likely to tell us a lot about the kind of president Barack Obama intends to be. Will he buckle to the left, the netroots, and pursue an investigation into torture having said he didn't want to? Or will he go post-partisan and leave the past to the historians?
David Gregory on what he calls (with scare quotes) the "politics of the 'torture' debate":
What [Obama officials] got on their hands is a highly politicized and very partisan issue about the treatment of 9/11 prisoners. . . . At a time when the administration and the President will already be under scrutiny for being tough enough, is this a fight they really want to have? I would also point you to, if you haven't see this already, the Wall St. Journal Editorial Page today, which I think raises some really tough points about not only what signal you're sending to the rest of the world, but also to potential Terrorists out there, about just what it is that U.S. interrogators would do and not do, but also the point that's raised there is: did the Bush administration go out of its way to make sure they were adhering to the law and not crossing over that bridge when it came to getting into torture?
(By the way: can someone tell me what a "9/11 prisoner" is?; and is there anything less surprising than the fact that Gregory looks to The Wall St. Journal Editorial Page for guidance on such questions?)

 
703Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 16:53
Washington Monthly
What I find amusing to think about is Howard Dean's tenure in early 2005, shortly after he took over as DNC chairman. He had a tendency to make some provocative comments -- including telling a California audience that Republicans are "a pretty monolithic party. They all behave the same. They all look the same. It's pretty much a white Christian party."

If you go back and look at that period, however, two things jump out. One, major news outlets not only pounced on Dean, but quickly pressed Democratic leaders whether they agreed with the DNC chairman's remarks.

And two, leading Democrats -- most notably John Edwards, Joe Biden, and Bill Richardson -- all publicly distanced themselves from Dean.

Dean's "controversial" comments were practically meaningless compared to Steele's near-constant habit of saying dumb things. How about political reporters on the Hill press GOP leaders for their daily reactions to Steele's odd musings?
 
704Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 17:11
One un-noted tidbit is that Obama stated somewhere, his 100 day honeymoon news conference I believe, that Britain has had such a good policy against torture. [unlike the USA which is always inferior to the rest of the world don't you know?]

When in fact it is not true and his grandfather was tortured by the British in Kenya!

So the question is, you know Obama was at least aware that his grandfather was tortured by the British, so why did Obama say what he said?

Any speculation?
 
706Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 19:09
Let us first get our quote right, shall we?
"When London was being bombed to smithereens, (the British) had 200 or so detainees and Churchill said, 'we don't torture'," Mr Obama told a press conference to mark 100 days since he became US president.

"The reason was that Churchill understood, you start taking shortcuts and, over time, that corrodes what's best in people. It corrodes the best of the country."
Some people speculate that he relied on the sourced information at this Andrew Sullivan post.

Whatever his reason was for making that claim, reading the actual quote (rather than trusting your inaccurate paraphrase) raises an obvious response to your question - show me that Churchill ever ordered anyone tortured (Kenyans or anyone else) or that such was permitted by British policy.

For the record, Chris Hitchens notes that did in fact have a pretty good policy against torture, despite what might have happened to Obama's grandfather in Kenya.
 
707Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 22:01
You are actually going to pretend that the Obama family is happy with Britain's torture record?

Why do I hang around here?

 
708DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 22:31
We wonder the same thing.
 
709Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 02:30
What would you liberals do without me?

Ask each other what enchanted you about Obama's first one hundred days?

Go ahead.

Wallow in emotionalism?

Challenge each other to see who can do the most Acorn 'community service'?

Count off as you go forth each day to spread the democrat talking points of the day?

 
710Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 04:55
Well, without you, we certainly wouldn't see as many cliches or generalizations about an opposing political party.
 
711Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 05:49
There's Treetard again spreading the word.

 
712Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 07:36
You are actually going to pretend that the Obama family is happy with Britain's torture record?

No. But apparently you're actually going to pretend that Obama said he was happy with britans torture record, and then demand I defend that historical revision.

You're not fooling anyone.
 
713Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 13:41
I read the transcript. He held Churchill up as the model to follow. How I am promoting revisionism is beyond me. Here is the period Obama's grandfather must have been tortured.
From October 1952 to December 1959, Kenya was under a state of emergency arising from the Mau Mau rebellion against British rule. The governor requested and obtained British and African troops, including the King's African Rifles. In January 1953, Major General Hinde was appointed as director of counter-insurgency operations. The situation did not improve for lack of intelligence, so General Sir George Erskine was appointed commander-in-chief of the colony's armed forces in May 1953, with the personal backing of Winston Churchill.The capture of Warũhiũ Itote (aka General China) on 15 January 1954, and the subsequent interrogation led to a better understanding of the Mau Mau command structure.
So why is Obama so happy with Churchill era torture policy? And how can you in good conscience accuse me of revisionism in this matter?
 
714Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 14:16
This is a joke.

If you think you've shown that Churchill had Kenyans tortured with that nonsense, I've got dozens of arguments for you to revisit.

Imagine your reaction to an argument showing some tacit or explicit support of General Karpinski from GWB, with the claim that it confirms not only that that W ordered Abu Ghraib prisoners tortured but that all of the abuse which took place there fell within the bounds of US torture policy.

That's effectively the same argument you've made in post 713.

And your detatchment from reality-based reasoning doesn't end there, of course. Because, in order to make Obama a liar out of this nonsense, even if you could show that Churchill personally ordered the torture of Obama's grandfather, you'd still have to show that Obama knew it.

Barack Obama barely knows his Kenyan family. You're so sure he knows all about General Sir George Erskine and his relationship with Winston Churchill?

Why do you hang around here?
 
715Perm Dude
      ID: 21425914
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 15:25
Rather than take a stand on Bush's torture policies (well, Cheney's really), Baldwin does a classic Baldwinism: Try to make this about whether Obama agrees with Churchill's policy.

Luckily the American people saw through those kinds of transparent moves some time ago.
 
716Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 09, 2009, 15:28
Rather than take a stand on Bush's torture policies...

or the pass given to the pathetic Michael Steele by the liberal media.
 
717Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sun, May 10, 2009, 21:04
Barack Obama barely knows his Kenyan family

Well he wrote an entire book about the dreams of his father, but hadn't heard a peep about his grandfather and Kenya during WWII.

He campaigns for his family in elections. He meddles in that country's politics for his family.

Barack, don't be such a stranger.

 
718Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, May 10, 2009, 21:50
Yes. He barely knows his Kenyan family.

You never read Dreams of My Father, excerpt for teh out-of-context excerpts that circulate on rabid right-wing hate outlets and racist websites.

Re: Odinga, we can revist yet another argument you lost to me if you insist. I'll just point any curious lurkers to to a thorough enough debunking of that particular example of 2008 election right-wing hate propaganda. If you have a few minutes, be sure to check the link to the Cold Fury discussion at the bottom of the page for some insigh into the pathetic determination to demonize the President from the supposed patriotic side of the aisle.

B can post whatever sorry-ass Obama-Odinga connection propaganda he cares to. It's all covered there. Just as it was when I brought all those points to teh forum last year.

There's no reasoning with the derranged. You guys are like crackheads.
 
719Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, May 10, 2009, 22:02
For a sense of the presence of that determination here at Rotogurum you can check the The Real Obama Part 2 thread fo rthe discussion of this topic which took place here.

Start off at post 425, which does not disappoint.
 
720Perm Dude
      ID: 26439108
      Sun, May 10, 2009, 22:34
You'd think a self-avowed "Christian" would be more adverse to lying, eh MITH?

I guess we can assume that, or that he is still chirping out the soundbites while "sorting through all this" (post 470 of that thread)
 
721Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 02:58
There's no reasoning with the derranged. You guys are like crackheads.

You can't even see the deterioration. If you can't see it in yourself can you not see PD's slide into emotionalism and his withdrawal from critical thinking?

This is your head on Obama.

 
722Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 03:16
MITH

Here are the clues in your own conduct.

Look how often you rely on baseless accusations of hatred and lies.

Even Tree thinks he is winning the debate so that isn't new for you. But you never used to just presume the only way the other guy could hold his opinions was because of hatred and racism. That is just pathetic and weak minded.

 
723Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 03:20
And take a dispassionate look at your insistance Obama doesn't know his family.

All you have is the will to believe your position. The other viewpoint has an entire book's worth of evidence that Obama isn't in the dark on that subject and that he was motivated to be well acquainted with that subject.

 
724Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 06:30
But you never used to just presume the only way the other guy could hold his opinions was because of hatred and racism.

Oh just put up or shut up.

Who's throwing around baseless accusations? I've never called you a racist. I said you rely on propaganda found at hate outlets and racist sites and I'll stand by that.

What I have relied on in that discussion is nothing short of a mountain of evidence uncovered after far, far more research than you have done on the topic. To dismiss all my work as "baseless accusations" is even more pathetic than what you accuse me of.

You found a single photo and a few links at a handful of hate-sites (To counter the accusation regarding what B says I "rely" on, I urge any curious readers to check the link in post 719 and determine for yourself if his sources qualify as "hate sites", no need to take my word for it).

I responded with links to various news organizations' (American, European and African) coverage of Obama's 2006 trip to Kenya in which Baldwin and the rest of the rabid right would have you believe Obama campaigned for Raila Odinga, whom they also claim is Obama's first cousin, showing that not a single media outlet reported any suppport from Obama for Odinga.

I pointed out the many media reports on that event I did come across, all noting that it was an event held after Barack and Michelle Obama publicly took AIDs tests and that Obama's speech was entirely about AIDS awareness.

I posted photos from Getty Images (which can be retrieved again) displaying more of the stage than the better known photo of Obama standing behind the seated Odinga on a stage (which you claim is undoubtedly a political rally based on nothing more than the image of the two men in the photo) and the emblem of the health organization which sponsored the event.

I linked to the State Department website in questioning B's claims about Odinga leading a "new front on the world-wide campaign of global jihad" and spreading Islamism and Sharia Law in Kenya. One would think the GWB State Department would be up on such a thing.

In my blog, linked in #718, I added to my research numerous personal accounts of what took place at that event that day, including a now retired Air Force Major General who accompanied Obama on the trip, stating, in response to this fabricated controversy:
Mr. Obama did not “campaign” on behalf of Raila Odinga, has never endorsed him, and was not “nearly inseparable” from Mr. Odinga during his time in Kenya. Mr. Obama met with a wide range of Kenyan and American officials, including a Nobel Prize winner, human-rights defenders, and President Mwai Kibaki. He did not have a single scheduled meeting with Mr. Odinga.

Mr. Obama was accompanied throughout his trip by myself and two other active-duty U.S. military officers; and the U.S. ambassador attended meetings and events throughout the trip.
I included a video made by a member of the Kenyan press explaining how Odinga cozied up to Obama, providing fodder for the rabid right to focus their hate on:
. For Odinga, Obama’s visit was a political gift. For the entire trip, Odinga endeavored to gain as much publicity for himself as he could by cozying up to [this] beloved figure from the United States who happened to have a Luo heritage. Odinga even had T-shirts printed up with the image of him and Obam and the humble declaration AFRICA’S GREATEST SONS.

In an effort to remain above Kenyan tribal politics, Obama’s staff had been coy about revealing the senator’s schedule to Odinga. Still, the time of his vist to the family compound was widely known to locals. Kisumu, in fact had been in carnival atmosphere for several days, with nightclubs celebrating Obama’s trip in raucus fashion. So there was no way to get around the orchestrated political assembly, which had all the trappings of the same kind of event in the United States.
I pointed out that through the mountain of press coverage that Obama's vistit to Kenya received, I could not find even a single media report anyplace which described that or any other event as a campaign rally or anything remotely like that.

I linked news articles with transcript excerpts from that very speech Obama gave with Odinga on the stage (I couldn't find a full transcript). None mentioned Odinga's campaign.

I noted that this must have been the worst campaign rally in the history of human civilization, since hundreds of media outlets from 3 continents reported on the event and

not

a

single

one

of

them

reported so much as a hint of an endorsement of Odinga from Barack Obama.

So he's an idea, Baldwin, - thicken up your skin, accept your hate and respond to the evidence. Something you never did back in June when I presented all of this and something you still have faild to do.

That's how politics debate works right? One side shows some data and makes an assessment and any parties who disagree present their evidence and counter-assessment. Your response to my counter-assessment is that I haven't supplied sufficient evidence to make a case and am relying solely on baseless claims of hate and racism.

As usual I'm happy to let any interested lurkers decide for themselves whether it is you or I who has made a stronger case.
 
725Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 14:36
His very presense as a Luo on stage with his cousin, and his prominence in the world is an unmistakable boost. It is a profound election changing factor.

So you are telling me a candidate in Kenya, who can effectively point to the leader of the [as of today] free world, and most powerful [as of today] and generous nation on earth being in his back pocket...isn't a huge decisive election factor?

I don't care if those media outlets spelled it out for you or not. It is elementary.

 
726Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 15:04
So you are telling me a candidate in Kenya, who can effectively point to the leader of the [as of today] free world, and most powerful [as of today] and generous nation on earth being in his back pocket...isn't a huge decisive election factor?

WTF does "as of today mean"? Obama was the junior senator from Illinois when he went to Kenya in 2006. He hadn't even published Audacity of Hope yet. The Kenyan presidential election took place in December of 2007.

Just what was Obama supposed to do? Snub his ancestral village and the public AIDS tests he and his wife planned to take there in a scheduled speaking engagement before the community -- because the local member of parliament who was running for president in the next election (more than 18 months away) had designs on making Obama into a campaign prop?

And don't think you're fooling anyone as you cling to whatever remnants of your propaganda you think might still stick as you back off from your more pointed previous accusations. You weren't coyly suggesting that appearing with Odinga amounted to tacit support when you were writing such gems as "OMG!OMG!OMG!!!" and captioning your stupid photo "thats a political rally, bro". Again, I invite all lurkers who haven't already done so to check the link in #719, starting with post 425.

And it's as if I couldn't find dozens of photos of past politicians speaking while standing next to all manner of highly unlikely people.

What utter, utter nonsense.
 
727Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 16:23
this really is starting to look like a squash match...and no, i don't mean the one with racquets

 
728Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 17:03
I will admit that his reliance on filmstrip-deep hate propaganda and his biased emotions in lieu of actual research or common sense makes it pretty easy.
 
729Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 22:38
Odinga would be only a defeated historical footnote in Kenya's past if not for Obama's help.

Odinga lost the presidential election, only to be forced back into the mix by a deal he cut with muslims, and Obama's rising political fortunes lifting Odinga's boat.

 
730Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 23:01
As usual, your delusions of debate victory rely completely on your ability to simply ignore any source that disagrees with you. Obama's meddling in support of Odinga was and is undeniable by anyone willing to see the obvious.
 
731Pancho Villa
      ID: 24271117
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 23:44
undeniable by anyone willing to see the obvious.

He says. linking to a publication that exclaims in front page headline:

SHOCKING NEWS: Barack Obama will resign as US President on 15th of June

April 1, 2009
This was not expected to happen so soon, but now it is real. Obama sources confirm that the president will resign on the 15th of June and no reason has been given to the abrubt end of his presidency.

Many world leaders got a rude shock a few minutes ago when they got a “Top Secret” mail informing them on the intended resignation.

Obama will attend G20 summit in the UK soon and while there, he is expected to inform world leaders about the decision to resign.

Insiders contacted by API say Obama will resign because his push of things in Washington is not moving fast as he wanted because Washingtonians are not used to Obama’s way of handling things “quick-mannerly”.

Observers however have a different opinion. They think Obama’s resignation is due to the fact that many are calling for his impeachment because of the way he is handling issues in the White House.

The Democrats are reported to be in shock and although it is expected that the Vice president is to take over, there will be a battle before such a thing happens. Many Democrats would like to by-pass the constitution and elect Mrs Hillary Clinton to take over instead of Vice President Biden. They argue that Clinton got many votes and should lead the country now that Obama has decided to resign.

Chief Editor Korir


Much of the rest is anti-Obama propaganda as well, leading one to believe an April Fool's joke it's not.
The only thing obvious and undeniable is that API is a site with zero credibility.
 
732Perm Dude
      ID: 26439108
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:02
Love the "Recent posts" on the left bar:

"Condom accident exposes son’s promiscuity – The housemaid wanted a sex goose"

"Suspicious teacher goes bananas over barmaid – Burning her house, he thought, was the best solution"

"Obama magic winning the Arab world – Is he using his smile, a tricky move, to woe the Muslims?"

"Israel limits Christians as Pope visits – Is the Pope ready to apologise to the jews on what his country Germany did to them?"
 
733Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:23
That was an April Fool's joke. Get over it.
 
734Pancho Villa
      ID: 24271117
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:26
That was an April Fool's joke.

I assume you mean your link in #730, but you're a month and a half late.
 
736Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:37
Kenya gets it. Obama loving forces there have no trouble seeing that he was a part of Odinga's campaign.
Curiously, it has been the Kenyan press (almost alone) who have realized the potential implications: “… this is what may be the most memorable effect of the ODM’s [Odinga’s party] post-election campaign for State House. The longer their protests last, and the less disciplined they are – or the more atrocities like Eldoret [church massacre] are conducted in the party’s name- the more likely Kenya is to be stuck on the front pages of the world’s media and the more embarrassment it will bring to the Senator.” (“The Kiss of Death, How Kenya Could Spoil It For Obama” KenyaImagine 1/13/2008)
So what's your problem?
 
737biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:50
You forgot the link, Baldy.

MUST SEE VIDEO OF OBAMA IN KENYA CAMPAIGNING FOR MARXIST ODINGA!!!
 
738Perm Dude
      ID: 26439108
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:59
Heh. In a thread in which Baldwin asserts that the US news industry is in the tank for Democrats, he wants us to believe that the Kenyan news media has it exactly right, while everyone else (literally) has it exactly wrong.

Your filters are showing...
 
739Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 06:14
No, PD, not the Kenyan media -- a (likely American) blogger, reporting on African issues. For the record, throu my research on this issue, I have cited and provided multiple sources from the Kenyan media.

Anyway, Baldwin's blogger is debunked before the completion of her first paragraph.

First, her primary source for the claim that Obama helped finance Odinga's campaign IS FREAKING EMAIL SPAM!:
The mainstream media has justified ignoring this story based on a “conspiracy theory” chain email (politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/465) making the rounds from some African missionaries. Politifact.com examined the email—which claims Obama gave $1MM to Odinga’s campaign—and declared it “a pants on fire”.
From there it gets no better.
However, the underlying (more important issues) are verifiably true. In August and September 2006, Senator Barack Obama traveled to South Africa, Chad, Djibouti, Ethiopia, Chad and Kenya as a congressional delegation of one (Codel Obama) (“Codel Obama” The Hill 9/7/2006) While in Kenya, Obama consistently appeared at the side of fellow Luo Raila Odinga (“your agent for change’), who was running for President. (“Senator Rebukes Kenya’s Corruption” Chicago Sun Times 8/29/2006)
One would assume, from that reading, that the claim that "Obama consistently appeared at the side of fellow Luo Raila Odinga", would be supportd by one of those two links. However, the The Hill article does not mention Odinga's name. The Sun Times piece says only this: "Obama appeared with opposition leader Raila Odinga -- a Luo running for president -- at stops on Saturday in his father's native district.".

Why do the totally unsubstantiated claims of an anonymous blogger trump the mountain of evidence I have provided?

Perhaps it is the undisputable nature of email spam that has Old Baldy so convinced?

Why is that blogger any more believable than this blogger who actually claims to be Kenyan?
Unbeknownst to Obama’s trip planners or staff, presidential candidate Raila Odinga had assembled thousands of Luo for a political festival in Obama’s honor. For Odinga, Obama’s visit was a political gift. For the entire trip, Odinga endeavored to gain as much publicity for himself as he could by cozying up to [this] beloved figure from the United States who happened to have a Luo heritage. Odinga even had T-shirts printed up with the image of him and Obam and the humble declaration AFRICA’S GREATEST SONS.

In an effort to remain above Kenyan tribal politics, Obama’s staff had been coy about revealing the senator’s schedule to Odinga. Still, the time of his vist to the family compound was widely known to locals. Kisumu, in fact had been in carnival atmosphere for several days, with nightclubs celebrating Obama’s trip in raucus fashion. So there was no way to get around the orchestrated political assembly, which had all the trappings of the same kind of event in the United States.
Why is she any more believable than retired Maj Air Force General J Scott?
• Mr. Obama's 2006 trip to Kenya was authorized by the Republican chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who congratulated Mr. Obama on a successful trip when he returned.

• Mr. Obama did not “campaign” on behalf of Raila Odinga, has never endorsed him, and was not “nearly inseparable” from Mr. Odinga during his time in Kenya. Mr. Obama met with a wide range of Kenyan and American officials, including a Nobel Prize winner, human-rights defenders, and President Mwai Kibaki. He did not have a single scheduled meeting with Mr. Odinga.

• Mr. Obama was accompanied throughout his trip by myself and two other active-duty U.S. military officers; and the U.S. ambassador attended meetings and events throughout the trip. The Obama staffer - Mark Lippert - that Mr. Hynes names is a naval reservist and Iraq War veteran whose deployment began several months before the Kenyan elections and continued well past it.
Why is it that anonymous bloggers and chain email spam are "the obvious" and therefore more reliable sources than first-hand accounts of American Air Force Generals?
 
740Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 10:26
An even more 'coy' way of avoiding involvement in Kenyan politics is not showing up at presidential campaign rallies for Odinga and not calling Odinga's opposition corrupt while failing to mention Odinga corruption.
 
741Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 11:23
I see. So your answer to the question I posed in 726 is that you do think Obama should have snubbed his ancestral village and blown off the public AIDS tests he and his wife planned to take there in a scheduled AIDS awareness speaking engagement before the community -- because the local member of parliament who was running for president in the next election (more than 18 months away) had designs on making Obama into an unwilling campaign prop?

If it's your opinion that the presence of shady local politicians should be allowed to undermine Obama's effort to bring AIDS awareness to the part of the world most severely decimated by the disease in the place where then-Senator Obama had more influence than anyplace outside of the US, that's your right. I happen to think you're an ass who is desperately and nakedly clinging to the few tattered remnants of your biased hate propaganda that you hope haven't already been thoroughly shredded by me. Hey, I'm entitled to my opinion, too, right?

And for the record, though no complete online transcript of Obama's speech that day exists that know of, there are several news reports I've come across in my research which contain excerpts from his speech. None include a single critical word of "Odinga's opposition".

Now, in an entirely seperate speech that Obama gave before the University of Nairobe, he did include some criticism of the Kenyan government. Excerpts from that speech are frequently cited by the derranged right as a campaign speech in support of Raila Odinga. I have no idea whether Odinga was present at that event, but a read of the full transcript will confirm that he did not single out "Odinga's opposition" as corrupt. His criticisms were highly generalized (and obviously deliberately so), pointed at no particular politician, office or branch, just "government", and entity which (as should be obvious enough to anyone not entirely deluded by their blind hate) included Raila Odinga.
 
742bibA
      ID: 104311115
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 12:40
Are you not aware that Soros had bought and rigged Kenya long before the votes were cast?
 
743Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 13:17
well, his great great great grandmother on his father's side was 1/16th Kenyan. i read it on a blog once.
 
744Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 13:23
Soros had bought and rigged Kenya long before the votes were cast

I don't doubt B could make precisely that case with no sacrifice to his standards, whatsoever.
 
745DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 13:30
Standards!

I nearly shot Diet Coke out my nose when I saw that.
 
746Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 19:53
That's rich. Obama was including Odinga when he called Kenya government corrupt. Now that was creative. You've added craft to your toolbox. Now add common sense.

If you really believe Odinga was just some remora using Obama against Obama's will, some remora who just happened to be his cousin tho that was a random fact unrelated to the odds that Obama supported him, then there is no crafty act by Obama you wouldn't accept as innocent.

The guy could murder your loved ones before your eyes and you'd be making up excuses for your lying eyes.

 
747Perm Dude
      ID: 354361211
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 20:07
some remora who just happened to be his cousin

He's Obama's cousin like we are brothers. Only metaphorically.

Typically, when people who utilize critical thinking skills find a fact they were using in an argument is wrong, they stop using it. What's your excuse?
 
748Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 23:10
Obama is still fighting for 'The Dreams of My Father', a fellow Kenyan marxist like Odinga.

Obama's father was expelled from the Kenyan administration back in his day for being too hardcore communist.

Odinga is East German educated and with a firstborn named Fidel.

Why can't you see the obvious?

 
749Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, May 13, 2009, 00:49
the obvious is that you seem to be clinging to completely unrelated issues in some weird attempt to prove a relation between Odinga and Obama, despite the fact family members have said there is no relation.

it's been made clear they are not blood relatives, and perhaps you've actually decided to stop fighting that point, and instead go with "obama's father is a communist. Odinga named his first born after a communist. Can't you see that they are practically blood brothers???"

by the same relation, i suppose Obama also ended Apartheid, since Odinga's youngest child is named Winnie Mandela.

why can't YOU see the obvious?
 
750Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 13, 2009, 06:53
Unless he comes up with some actual research to show me -- which does not mean checking the archives at the hate blogs and simply pasting their unsubstantiated chain-email-supported claims into this thread -- I'm finished dealing with Boldwin on the issue.


However, if there are readers who aren't thoroughly convinced that the Obama-Odinga connection and the absurd associated claims are a crock, I urge you to speak up, raise your issue and I'll be happy to respectfully respond.
 
751Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, May 13, 2009, 12:00
This is elementary.

All it takes is for anyone with common sense to look at who Obama is, how he feels about the issues of his father's life, who Odinga is and where he comes from ideologically.

I guess Obama's own words in Dreams of My Father and the biographical details we know about his father, don't count for research.

But anyone with basic common sense can see the obvious.

But you mean it is far fetched that the MSM which is beyond in the tank for him might downplay his obvious campaigning for a communist and someone who betrays his county to islamists in secret deals? No, they'd be all over that story...not. In fact they'd be all over his cover story and rush to accept his plausible deniability.

Anyone who believes his visit was about aids and not about keeping alive the causes of his father is a love-drunk fool for Obama.

 
752Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, May 13, 2009, 12:10
Anyone else think it's elementary?


Anyone?
 
753Perm Dude
      ID: 354361211
      Wed, May 13, 2009, 12:18
Let's see if I can figure this out:

-Obama wrote a book about his father, and coming to grips with not having him around. He feels a kinship for Kenya as a result.

-Also, the "MSM" is in the tank for Obama. So anything they say is the opposite of the truth.

-Odinga is the only "communist" in history to never lie, particularly when doing so will help him politically. [This last one is the key. Unless we believe Odinga over what literally everyone else is saying, including Obama's uncle, this all falls apart].


Put is all together...damn!
 
755Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Thu, May 14, 2009, 18:57
The book is called 'Dreams of My Father', not 'Dang I Miss My Father'.

And the dreams of his father who was a Harvard educated hardcore communist was to make a newly emancipated Kenya over from colony into a communist state.

And his father was kicked out of the government and promised he'd be so poor he wouldn't own shoes, by the president who decided hardcore communism was over the top and father Obama was too big for his britches. Harvard education or not.

So now his father who is dead gets to live vicariously thru his son, as he gives the 'Dreams of My Father' a second try.

And if that doesn't explain to you what Obama was doing in Kenya, it is because you are either simple or deliberately blind.
 
756tree, on the treo
      ID: 55220277
      Thu, May 14, 2009, 19:08
someone here didn't read the book....

otherwise, he might know the context of the title, as in "dreaming of my father", not " dreams my father had"...

then again, this is hardly the first time baldwin has spoken about something he didn't know anything about.

unless, baldwin, you did read the book...if so I apologize, but from here, it looks like you didn't get past the front cover.
 
757Perm Dude
      ID: 484431415
      Thu, May 14, 2009, 19:48
Wouldn't be the first time he was presented with first person evidence but missed the context because of he already knew the truth.

It's the reason Cheney tortured, ironically enough. Tried to invent his own reality on the screams of captured men.

Not that Baldwin is torturing anything but the truth here.
 
758bibA
      ID: 104311115
      Thu, May 14, 2009, 23:35
It matters naught what Obama has written or said, when we are lucky enough to have someone on these boards who ACTUALLY KNOWS what Obama is thinking. Not to mention knowing who is possessed by satan.
 
759Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 15, 2009, 14:43
It matters naught what Obama has written or said - bibA

A) I'm the only one here who knows what he wrote.

B) I'm the only one here who cares to add up what Obama has done in his life.

C) You guys who only have hope to misguide you, and Obama's fence-sitting electioneering and cotton-candy, pie-in-the-sky promises to lead you around by the nose, really need someone to add up all the evidence for you.

D) While we are at it, you need someone with a memory to remind you of the deathcamps around the world, still active or not, attesting to just how much marxism loves people. But you wanna give it one more try.

Idiots.

 
760Perm Dude
      ID: 444471510
      Fri, May 15, 2009, 16:23
Go away, Baldwin. Seriously. Go.
 
761tree, on the treo
      ID: 55220277
      Fri, May 15, 2009, 17:37
I'm the only one here who knows what he wrote

did you read either of his two books?

that's a yes or no question, which I know are challenging for you, but try.
 
762Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 05:19
Just the choice parts.

No need to ask Tree.
 
763Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 05:29
Go away, Baldwin. Seriously. Go.

It was easy to consider dissent a virtue for forty years when a politician couldn't even admit to being a liberal and get elected.

But get liberals in power, like it's been in universities, and suddenly free speech is criminal.

 
764tree, on the treo
      ID: 55220277
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 11:08
in other words, no.

you didn't read the books. you're commenting on them like you know what you're talking about, when in reality, just like many other aspects of your life - such as how you present yourself in regards to religion - you are a fraud and a charlatan.

it would be someone saying "baldwin is a man who hates the pedophile next door and loves his own children very much" but deciding just to read "choice parts" and getting from that "baldwin is a pedophile and loves children..."

something we know not to be true, but if you're only reading what you want , i.e. "choice parts", then why not invent the truth?

you didn't read the books. you are in no position to comment on them as to how they truly represent obama's thought and hopes and dreams, so unless you are ok with being a fool, it might be wise for you to stop, or at least have the balls and brains to pick them up and read them on your own, instead of being spoon fed "choice parts" like someone who can't do it for themselves.
 
765Perm Dude
      ID: 174121611
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 12:12
Leave it to a so-called conservative to decide that I'm infringing upon his right to free speech. The only constitutional rights "conservatives" recognize these days are the ones they pretend are theirs and are being violated.

Go away, Baldwin. Surely there is an on-like echo chamber for you, a conclave of like-minded idiots like yourself to bounce the same things back and forth and back and forth?

Yeah, tree. Baldwin didn't read the books. He doesn't need to--he already knows what they say.
 
766Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 19:12
The desire for a dissent-free echo chamber is your own.

Yes context is important. Read enuff excerpts and you eventually get the tone however. Additional context cannot undo the picture of Obama Sr that I have explained. Additional context cannot diminish the fact that Obama wrote about and put the idealized imagined values of his absentee communist hero father above that of the people who actually raised him.
 
767tree, on the treo
      ID: 55220277
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 20:55
no baldwin, reading the excerpts providing by your nutcase sources doesn't give you the tone...

read the book or shut up. I mean, I've never read much of anything written by the jehovah's witnesses myself, but I've read enough to determine they're a cult of brainwashed fools.

not exactly fair of me, I know, but hey, I'm too lazy to listen to them...id rather read what others choose to print from them...
 
768Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 21:36
If you know anything about JW's you know they are all about Jehovah's Kingdom.

If the idea of God coming to rescue mankind doesn't appeal to you, that is how you have separated yourself into the goat category.
 
769tree, on the treo
      ID: 74201622
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 23:24
I've read enough excerpts that tell me they're a cult.

you probably know better than those excerpts, but, if the source isn't good enough for you, I don't guess it is for me....
 
770Perm Dude
      ID: 174121611
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 23:35
Baldwin, your refusal to read the original material tells us enough about where you are coming from.
 
771Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, May 18, 2009, 02:51
I haven't refused to read it. I have refused to give him a nickle.
 
772Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, May 18, 2009, 08:19
I haven't refused to read it. I have refused to give him a nickle.

no public libraries in your state?
 
773Perm Dude
      ID: 174121611
      Mon, May 18, 2009, 08:50
Yeah--why does Baldwin think this those two things are mutually exclusive?

Or maybe a book swapping club, like paperbackswap.com or bookmooch.com?
 
774Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 18, 2009, 09:35
I fail to see why you even bother trying to get him to read the thing. What do you tihnk will happen? He'll go through it and post every last quote in which the context can be twisted to support his fantasies.

We're talking about the guy who pasted excerpts (but no link of course) to this article in post 619 above as an example of how the media was overly critical of GWB's athelticism.
 
775boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, May 18, 2009, 09:40
Has anyone read the book?
 
776Perm Dude
      ID: 174121611
      Mon, May 18, 2009, 09:50
Yes.
 
777Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Aug 25, 2009, 13:36
Followup to the vile story referred to in the link in post 181 and linked again here.

Without going into too much detail, in January 2007 in Knoxville, Christopher Newsome and his girlfriend Channon Christian were out on a date when they were carjacked by 5 people who kidnapped the couple and raped and tortured them with such unimaginable brutality that after 11 years working with a TV news operation that focuses almost solely on crime, I don't think I've ever come across a more shocking case.

Today, Letalvis Cobbins was found guilty in 33 of the 38 counts against him. Sentencing is tomorrow.

The other 4 defendants are still awaiting trial. Next up is Lemaricus Davidson, for who jury selection starts next week.

Eric Boyd, another co-defendent who was not charged with murder, was convicted in federal court in April 2008 as an accessory and sentenced to 18 years.
 
778Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 00:09
For decades the MSM treated every gathering of 12 liberals with signs as a real expression of popular opinion.

Cameramen from the MSM stood on their heads to film the 'crowd' from the best angle to appear substantial.

If the following crowds had been liberals how would the MSM have covered them?







The MSM would have spent the prior weeks running puff pieces describing the lengths people were going to to be there in a not so subtle attempt to encourage people to show up.

They would have described the event as one of the most important moments in the progress of the human race.

They would have helpfully overestimated the size of the crowd.

But since these were conservatives, the MSM largely ignored them and Obama felt safe claiming he hadn't even heard of the protests...because the MSM had played it that way.

Is there liberal bias in the MSM? The case is so proven an honest person cannot even begin to deny it.
 
779Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 07:54
the NY Times, CNN, Fox News, and every member of the MSM covered the event.

meanwhile, as has already been pointed out, there have been lots of lies from the Right about the event, from dramatically inflated attendance numbers to BOGUS PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WERE ACTUALLY FROM A DIFFERENT EVENT.

the fact of the matter is that this was a relatively small event.

70,000 people wouldn't even fill a large college football stadium.

7 times that number attended pro-immigration rallies in LA alone in 2006. A million more attended nationwide.

9 times that number attended anti-Iraq War rallies in NYC alone in 2003. Another 10 million more attended worldwide.

25 times that number of people attended Obama's inauguration.

yes, it's newsworthy these 70,000 people are unhappy.

it's even more newsworthy that their supporters are willing to lie and dramatically inflate numbers and supply fake photos.

but the fact remains that 70,000 simply isn't that many people on a relative scale.

and that is why any media with a lick of sense would not have described the event as one of the most important moments in the progress of the human race.


 
780Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 08:34
All the photos I posted were from the event, and the other photos in that source were labeled as to event and were there for the very useful purpose of showing that the event was comparable to the 'million man march.

So while media estimates vary widely, [as your ridiculous low ball shows how far some are willing to underestimate]...while a British paper with less liberal irons in the fire presumably, estimating it as approaching 2 million, besides the numerous other events staged around the country simultaneously.

No matter whose estimate you go by, [and I certainly didn't buy the media's count of the 'million man march] just use your eyes. It was comparable to the million man march and the media coverage was distinctly not comparable.

They filled at least as much space as the million man march but were largely ignored.

Tree can use the source Farouk El-Baz however, a Boston University research professor and expert on crowd estimation, whose 'casual research from press coverage' indicated 75,000 as the maximum number of attendees.

Because casually reviewing the MSM coverage was such a scientific basis for this 'expert'.
 
781Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 08:52
They were largely ignored because they are large idiots.

How many people do you think were there, Boldwin?
 
782Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 08:52
All the photos I posted were from the event, and the other photos in that source were labeled as to event and were there for the very useful purpose of showing that the event was comparable to the 'million man march.

yes, all the photos you posted were from the event. kudos to you for being honest for once. but there were plenty of people like you who were considerably less honest.

including the organizers of the event, who originally circulated a photo from a 1997 Promise Keepers rally as proof of the attendance for this teabagger rally.

and no, the attendance was nowhere near the Million March.

let's just compare the low ball vs. high (?) ball numbers.

Million Man March low estimate was 400,000. High was 2 million.

National United TeabaggerS march low estimate was 70,000. High "estimate" is 2 million, but REALLY, that's stretching it, since pretty much anyone who quoted that figure has now said it was way, way, way off base.

heck, even one of the organizers of the event, claiming to quote ABC, said 1.5 million were there. When it was shown that ABC said no such thing, he retracted that information, and dramatically lowered his estimate.

Even event organizers can't even come close to agreeing on the attendance numbers.

 
783Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 09:40
As posted in the GOP thread, the teabaggers are just making up the numbers out of thin air, then quoting themselves, then blaming the media for it all.

Typical.

When those that hail the lack of education as "authentic" sound continuously stupid on a factual level I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.
 
784boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 10:26
There are formula's for this you know. They can actually do pretty good estimates.

Oh when did this happen?
 
785Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 10:40
Actually, there are no official estimates that I'm aware of, though I've seen some numbers which estimate the crowd at 100,000-200,000. That actually isn't a bad crowd at all, which is why it is such a joke that the baggers insist on it being so much bigger. Crowd envy, I guess.

The point of my particular link is that the teabaggers just made up some numbers, passed them around amongst themselves (quoting only themselves), then blamed the "media" for it all.
 
786boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 10:43
I think the national park service does estimates, they have to for crowd control and stuff like that. Just looking at boldwins pictures 200k seems like reasonable upper limit. In general the crowd sizes are all ways over estimated especially by the people there.
 
787Pancho Villa
      ID: 54846169
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 10:48
Had I been GM of an electronic media outlet, I would have ordered a complete blackout of the 9/12 marches and demonstrations prior to the event.

These gatherings were basically promotions by Fox and Clear Channel, two of the largest mainstream media conglomerates in this country. While it is a testament to the number of active followers who responded to this promotion, they're basically live remotes featuring Fox and Clear Channel personalities, not really any different than the the local radio morning show doing a live feed from the local Ford dealership.

From a business standpoint, it doesn't make any sense to promote your competitions' event.

From a news prospective, reporting on the significance after the fact, which every news outlet did, destroys the claim that Is there liberal bias in the MSM? The case is so proven an honest person cannot even begin to deny it.

And, of course, MSM continues to be a meaningless term created by the right to further their claims of victim status. It's an emotional crutch that they claim is reserved for liberals, but the case for rampant emotionalism from conservatives is so proven an honest person cannot even begin to deny it.
 
788boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 10:55
MSM continues to be a meaningless term created by the right to further their claims of victim status.

I think MSM lost most of its meaning some time in the last century. I have not idea really what that means anymore.


These gatherings were basically promotions by Fox and Clear Channel, two of the largest mainstream media conglomerates in this country. While it is a testament to the number of active followers who responded to this promotion, they're basically live remotes featuring Fox and Clear Channel personalities, not really any different than the the local radio morning show doing a live feed from the local Ford dealership.


interesting, i guess this all happened 9/12?
 
789Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 11:06
No it didn't all happen on 9/12. Beck and other FOX talking heads had been promoting the event on the air for weeks. Beck also anchored FNC for several hours on Saturday afternoon. They dropped all pretense of objective reporting while their correspondant literally whooped it up with the teabaggers diring his live reports.

Presumably, such MSM-sponsorship makes it what has been referred to as an "astroturf" event.
 
790Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 11:19
A mockery of their own network slogans:



By the way, if at the end of the event, Fox News Channel is limiting the tally of protestors at "tens of thousands" then it's a pretty safe bet that anyone claiming anything more than a couple of hundred-thousand is shamelessly full of it.
 
791Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 11:25
By the way, just so everyone is clear, Griff Jenkins is not "on the bus" as he follows the "Tea Party Express" around the country. He is simply reporting on this phenomenon as it happens. He is not part of it. Just there to document and to [snicker] challenge it.


 
792Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 11:26
Just filing objective - challenging - reports:

 
793Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 11:34
I repeat - Griff Jenkins is *NOT* a teabagger:

 
794Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 11:46
Video of Griff Jenkins **NOT** on the official Tea Party Express Bus:

 
795Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 11:50
Err... Uh...

 
796Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 15:30
Back on topic:

 
797biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 15:48
Who is Ed Schultz?

I guess that might have been the point. He wanted people to know. If I were him, I would have decided to make a splash in a more coherent fashion.

Fire his ass. I don't think he will be missed.
 
798Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 16:04
He's had the 6pm slot on MSNBC since April. According to Politico he isn't usually so over the top so your guess is as likely as any. Or maybe MSNBC is looking for the just the right pitch to hit on a leftist version of the most recent successful model at FOX News Channel.
 
799Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 16:25
I hope not. That's a crappy model to emulate.
 
800Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 16:37
Depends on whether you measure crappiness inversely against ratings.
 
801Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 16:41
I measure it by the ratio of signal to noise. I wasn't able to
pick up any signal; at least not in that clip.
 
802Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 13:57
Connor Friedersdorf:
ACORN is just the latest example of how conservative media love to blast The New York Times for its shortcomings. So why can’t they live up to the Gray Lady’s standards?
 
803Boldwin
      ID: 4947297
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 10:37
By: Byron York Washington Examiner Chief Political Correspondent

09/04/09 11:30 AM EDT From a Nexis search a few moments ago: Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the New York Times: 0. Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the Washington Post: 0. Total words about the Van Jones controversy on NBC Nightly News: 0. Total words about the Van Jones controversy on ABC World News: 0. Total words about the Van Jones controversy on CBS Evening News: 0.

If you were to receive all your news from any one of these outlets, or even all of them together, and you heard about some sort of controversy involving President Obama's Special Adviser for Green Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, your response would be, "Huh?" If you heard that that adviser, Van Jones, had apologized for a number of remarks and positions in the recent past, your response would be, "What?" And if you were in the Obama White House monitoring the Jones situation, you would be hoping that the news organizations listed above continue to hold the line -- otherwise, Jones, who is quite well thought of in Obama circles, would be history.
The real reason Obama had to go on the offensive against FOX...his media lapdogs needed cover for the glaring ommission in their recent coverage.
 
804DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 13:58
No, the real reason they went after Fox is that Fox repeatedly misrepresents material facts about him, his policies, etcetera, in the guise of "news".
 
805biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 15:27
Van Jones in NYT.

Van Jones in NYT.

Van Jones in NYT.

Van Jones in NYT.

And dozens more articles in their Caucus and other blogs.
 
806biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 15:28
The NYTimes is actually the only place I read it.

I don't recall seeing anything in the Wall Street Journal, which I subscribe to daily.

Liberal rag.
 
807Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 15:58
#805 -

Baldwin's going to come back at you, because the date the article he quoted was written was on Sept. 4 - all of the articles you cited came much later.

it should be noted that the article was also written the day before Van Jones resigned.

quite frankly, i don't even think the run up to Jones' resignation deserved a lot of print, other than the fact it was obvious a character assassination attempt by supporters of Glenn Beck. So, to anyone other than Fox, there was nothing there - and much like showing the drunken idiot streaker at a ball game on national TV, giving play to those who set their sites on Jones would give them ammunition to continue that disgusting course of action.

i don't care that he called Congressional Republicans "a$$holes". Heck, Joe Wilson proved that some of them, as least, are "a$$holes".

i don't care that he was a socialist, and i think he's right to support Mumia Abu-Jamal. i don't even care he signed the 9-1-1 truth petition, and while i disagree with him, i'm pretty sure that opinion might be something Baldwin shares with Jones.

 
808Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 22:06
You guys can't have it both ways.

You can't laugh at me when I claim Obama is a communist, who will appoint communists as if that were an impossibility or an exageration...

...and then tell me there is no story there when he appoints one fullblown, self-admitted, proud-as-punch hardline communist after another to run the country without benefit of congressional review.

 
809Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 22:10
And neither can the NYT tell the country they are reporting every significant story.

Since when does an official with unchecked power resign over a scandal and that scandal isn't part of 'All the news that's fit to print'?

 
810Pancho Villa
      ID: 489263021
      Fri, Oct 30, 2009, 23:26
an official with unchecked power

Van Jones had unchecked power? Perhaps you can list a few of the things he accomplished with this unchecked power.
 
811Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 00:08
You can't laugh at me when I claim Obama is a communist, who will appoint communists as if that were an impossibility or an exageration...

you've claimed Obama is a communist, marxist, socialist, fascist, terrorist-sympathizer, muslim, african, non-citizen, nazi, "death panel" advocate, thug organizer (of several decades, nonetheless, despite being 48 years old), and probably a dozen other things.

it is easy to laugh at you, and hard to take you seriously, with all these absurd allegations you toss out casually.
 
812Boldwin
      ID: 27943011
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 02:56
PV

He was neither vetted by congress, nor were his actions run by congress before being implimented.

Thus congressmen who were not as enamored of Karl Marx as Van Jones could not emeliorate his marxist activity in a timely and effective way.

Multiply that problem by around twenty other marxists Czars doing an end-run around democracy.
 
813biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 06:01
Kleiman comments on Czars.

4. But Somin’s claim that assigning White House staffers such cross-cutting authority risks giving inappropriate people great power by “circumventing the normal appointment and confirmation process” doesn’t really pass the giggle test. The White House Chief of Staff isn’t a Senate-confirmed position, and wields far more power than any nominal “czar.” Van Jones’s “czardom” consisted of a brief from the President to cajole other executive branch officials about “green jobs.” Hardly a threat to the Constitutional order. (Karl R0ve’s practice of planting political commisars reporting to the White House – under the title “special assistant” – on the staffs of subcabinet officials was far more dangerous.)

5. The comments to Somin’s post reflect the danger that sane people run when they think that they can safely fellow- travel with insane people. The objectively insane belief that Barack Obama is a Marxist is offered in (apparently) perfect seriousness. Jones’s (former) self-identification as a “communist” made him too hot to handle politically. But Glenn Beck’s next target is Cass Sunstein, with his views on animal rights and the Second Amendment as the pretext. Having tasted blood, the wolfpack is coming back for more. Sunstein, as a commenter points out, has been a guest poster on the Volokh Conspiracy. But that won’t protect him from the full Jones/Sotomayor treatment, though his white skin might. From a libertarian perspective, Sunstein is a far more attractive choice for OIRA than anyone likely to replace him. But will the Volokh Conspirators rise to defend their former colleague when their current allies turn on him?

That famous poem by Pastor Niemoller on the risk of not speaking out starts “First they came for the Communists.” Any serious libertarian or conservative who tries to use the Beck/O’Reilly/Limbaugh/Palin faction rather than denouncing it is playing with fire. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.
 
814biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 06:07
and more...

More to the point of this thread:
The gullibility of the national political press corps has seldom been on more hideous display. Glenn Beck and his tame dogs in Congress have managed to make “czars” an issue without anyone’s ever bothering to define the term “czar.”
---

The issue is supposed to be about un-confirmed White House staff wielding extraordinary power, but one of the targets has been “regulatory czar” Cass Sunstein, whose job at OIRA is (1) created by statute;(2) Senate confirmed; and (3) designed to rein in regulatory excess.

Yes, there are a variety of White House staffers who have been designated as having the lead role in various policy areas. But what makes some of them ”inappropriate”? Who is supposed to make the list of “czars”? And what would the President have to do to “un-czar” someone?

Here’s my challenge to Red Blogistan: Pick a single official you’re calling a “czar.” Specify what grant of power to that person is “inappropriate.” Then let’s talk.

Again, the astounding thing isn’t that Republicans are pulling this stupid pet trick, but that reporters are covering it rather than asking basic questions about it.

Footnote And of course under the theory of the “unitary executive” so beloved of the GOP when the Beloved Leader was in power, Congress can’t even ask these people questions, let alone regulate the President’s management of his own staff.


There's your chance, Baldy. Mark is now accepting comments.
 
815biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 06:08
Greg Craig calls bullshit.
 
816biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 06:20
I assume you know that Van Jones originally got into trouble because he subscribed to similar conspiracy theories that you, Nerve and B7 subscribe to - Truthers, I think they are referred to.
 
817Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 09:18
I assume you know that Van Jones originally got into trouble because he subscribed to similar conspiracy theories that you, Nerve and B7 subscribe to - Truthers, I think they are referred to.

as pointed out by yours truly in post 807, and as usual, a point ignored by Baldwin because it must chap his hide to have something such as that pointed out by someone whom he treats with such contempt.
 
818Pancho Villa
      ID: 489263021
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 10:27
he subscribed to similar conspiracy theories that you, Nerve and B7 subscribe to - Truthers, I think they are referred to.

You can add me to that list as well, but let's clarify what constitutes subscribing to conspiracy theories.

The nation was presented with a government endorsed conspiracy theory that has been widely accepted despite mountains of inconsistencies, and in some cases, near impossibilities.
The petition signed by Jones does not advance a particular theory(although it does hint of collusion). Rather, it asks for an independent and transparent investigation of the 9/11 attacks, something which the 9/11 commission utterly failed to do, or even attempted to do.

I find the flap over Jones' signature on the petition to be the height of hypocrisy for someone like Glenn Beck, who positions himself as some kind of paragon for truth and the American way. Similarly, Baldwin's characterization of Jones as a fullblown, self-admitted, proud-as-punch hardline communist , based on statements and associations almost two decades old when Jones was in his early 20s, are hysterical exaggerations which purposely ignores the reality of the man's career.

My opposition to Jones in the advisory capacity he held centers on his almost total concentration on urban issues at the expense of suburban and rural concerns, and whether his representation was centered on black Americans or all Americans.

 
819Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 11:20
My opposition to Jones in the advisory capacity he held centers on his almost total concentration on urban issues at the expense of suburban and rural concerns, and whether his representation was centered on black Americans or all Americans.

This is probably the only legitimate beef against Van Jones you'll likely see on these boards. Well put, PV.

All other complaints against him are simply overblown straw grasping--attempts to use him in some way as a swipe against Obama rather than any real opposition for stand-alone reasons.
 
820Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 14:41
Not even if Rush Limbaugh appointed him.
 
821DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 16:28
Rush Limbaugh might very well appoint him...

(checks Van Jones' wiki picture)

Never mind.
 
822Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 18:36
NY Post run by a sexist ass who runs the paper to "destroy Barack Obama."

Jeez, you can't make this stuff up. The Right should hang its head in shame if only it had any.
 
823DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 20:50
Notwithstanding the merits of the complaint...

I looked at the cartoon before reading the article, and I confess that the merest hint of racism didn't occur to me. I assumed it was a play on the "thousand monkeys typing the works of Shakespeare" joke.

After reading the article, I looked at it again. I'm pretty sure I'm still right.
 
825holt
      ID: 308491916
      Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 01:40
PD - so if a person claims something in a law-suit, then it must be true? And if a person is guilty of sexual harassment, then everyone who shares beliefs with that person should hang their head in shame? Or are you saying that it is shameful that a newspaper could possibly have a pro-right agenda? Your post makes less sense than the chimp cartoon.

About that cartoon, it came out after the incident where a chimp mauled a woman and then was shot by police. Obama never wrote any stimulus bill, so why assume the monkey is Obama? It's more likely that the chimp represented Congress in some way. Bush has been portrayed as a monkey countless times. Obviously (I thought) "monkeys" are symbols of stupidity when they are used to represent people. People who assume that the chimp must be Obama may have some issues of their own that need attention.

I like how people can hold this belief that their political party is basically the closest thing to Heaven on Earth while the opposing party must be something akin to the Third Reich, even though in effect Republicans and Democrats are more alike than they are different. Two sides of the same dirty coin.
 
826Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 02:53
There are lawsuits, and then there are lawsuits. Don't try to wave your hand in the hopes that clear corroborative allegations of harassment are the same as some kind of nuisance suit. This isn't a "he said, she said." This is a "he said and a lot of people heard him. Then he did it again. And again."

Or are you saying that it is shameful that a newspaper could possibly have a pro-right agenda?

I'm saying that a newspaper with a clear bias against Obama should have the balls to call it like it is--a politically biased source. In this case, run by a sexist ass.

No surprise that this same kind of bullying judgement shows in the editorial cartoons it runs, including the chimp cartoon. At best, the cartoon was incredibly tone deaf not to have realized the Obama comparisons would be natural (calling a dead chimp the architect of the stimulus package while simultaneously blasting Obama over "his stimulus package").

I said nothing about political parties in my post. In the future you might want to proofread your pre-written posts to make sure they match the attack on a perceived rightwing target you decided to respond to that day.
 
827DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 10:05
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/two_party_system.png

Timing is everything.
 
828DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 11:37
(But you're still being hyper-sensitive about that cartoon.)
 
829holt
      ID: 308491916
      Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 16:06
Oh sorry PD, I guess there are a lot of Democrats on the right then? And you're not speaking as a self-righteous Democrat? My bad.

Btw, any dumb monkey could post a link referring to a ridiculous act committed by someone on the left and then say something inane like "The Left should hang its head in shame if only it had any". I'd be equally unimpressed.
 
830Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 10:49
You can bet the farm those whacky coincidence theorists will be all over this one today.
The system is projected to pay out more in benefits this year than it receives in taxes, a tipping point toward insolvency that was not expected before 2016.

Comments are no longer being accepted. - NYT Friday 26, 2010
Oh, the editor didn't happen to let this story slide till after the Next BFD Entitlement Program got passed? Oh Nooooooooooo...total coincidence.

Call you're doctor and see if he works for IOU's.
 
831Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 11:06
[The Social Security system, that is]
 
832Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 21:00
Why else would Fox news trounce so completely? Liberals are baffled.
Or maybe this really is, at heart, a conservative nation. - Ya'think? Newsflash goes off at the LA Times [Too...late]
 
833Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 21:09
Probably worth noting that the ratings for all those cable news shows are minuscule. They talk about huge percentages, but we aren't talking about a lot of people. Bill O'Reilly, with the largest audience of all, is about 3.5 million viewers. He would have to triple his audience to make it into the top 20.

Maybe this isn't really a cable news watching nation.
 
834Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 05:50
Cable News hour by hour. Bad news for Chris Matthews and Kieth Olberman. Good news for conservatives.
 
835Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 05:55
Meanwhile at broadcast news runs from 8.3 million NBC to 5.6 million CBS. So what does that say for Fox being able to balance the liberal bias of broadcast news?
 
836Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 10:02
 
837Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:58
what does that say for Fox being able to balance the liberal bias of broadcast news?

That they are the epitome of mainstream media.
 
838Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 14:38
ABC, NBC and CBS news hits 10 times as many households so I think PD had a point.
 
839sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 14:40
10 times as many? Wonderful. That will go a long ways apparently, to increasing our national literacy rates.
 
840Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 14:45
Astroturf signs don't have as many mispellings. I guess they have spellcheck in the SEIU office.
 
841CanadianHack
      ID: 19856214
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:01
Astroturf signs don't have as many mispellings. I guess they have spellcheck in the SEIU office.

Following this logic (if it was logic) a little bit, Baldwin's lack of misspellings implies he is "Astroturf". No real person could believe the kinds of things he does.

Or else that isn't very good logic and the spelling shows that hose making Tea Party type signs are often not literate.
 
842Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:15
and the spelling shows that hose - Hack

Spelling nazi relying too heavily on the spell-checker.
 
843Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:24
He's Canadian. He was simply calling then hosers.
 
844sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:27
them even lol (I am the LAST person with any right to talk about typos sheeeeesh)
 
845Canadian Hack
      ID: 4213318
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:28
We see that I am real and Baldwin is astroturf. Interesting
 
846boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 13:56
Interesting story/poll and this seemed to be the best place to put it:

Republicans like watching sports
 
847Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 14:05
That's pretty interesting.

There is clear confounding by age and geographic region,
however. I'd like to see the results after adjusting for those
things.
 
848boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 14:13
totally agree with that statement but there are some interesting things still in there. Maybe Tree would like to shed some light on why pro-wrestling is so left leaning.
 
849Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 15:49
So is TV dumbing people down or do dumb people watch TV?
 
850Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 15:50
And what did you expect from the people who don't even want people to keep score?
 
851C1-NRB
      ID: 2911103011
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 17:39
I was dropping a friend off at the mechanic earlier and the waiting room TV had FoxNews on.

The caption under the female reporter-on-the-scene read, "AWAITING THE ARRIVAL OF OBAMA IN ME"

Someone probably got a screenshot of it.
 
852Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 23:01
We're all screwed.
 
853astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 23:46
RE 846:

Interesting poll, thanks for sharing.
Haha, the poor WBNA can't win at anything!

 
854Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 23:55
Maybe Tree would like to shed some light on why pro-wrestling is so left leaning.

a lot of younger wrestling fans - those 45 and under - tend to be intelligent, open-minded, and rational people. i think that's why wrestling fans in general tend to skew left.
 
855astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 23:57
I thought most wrestling fans were fun-loving people that enjoyed watching violence. How do you get 'intelligent' and 'rational'? projecting a bit, Tree?
 
856Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 00:22
enjoyed watching violence

i probably haven't thought of wrestling as violent in close to 15 to 20 years.

for me, it's good vs. evil in an eternal struggle to see who wins. it's Greek tragedy, Shakespearian drama, and comic book heroes vs. villians all wrapped up in spandex and electric tape.
 
857Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 05:31
The funny thing is that liberals don't really believe in evil anymore. "Who are we to judge another person's/culture's value system"? It would be cultural imperialism to do so, western hubris....

So maybe it's just liberal nostalgia for a time when morality made sense to them and you could tell the bad guys from the good guys without a program.
 
858sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 07:59
Oh trust me Boldy. We know full well, who the 'bad guys' are.
 
859Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 08:16
The funny thing is that liberals don't really believe in evil anymore. "Who are we to judge another person's/culture's value system"?

here's an idea. leave. seriously. go. away.

while i admit to looking forward daily to see what nonsense comes out of your mouth, it's getting more and more annoying to see that nonsense come out in an attack while we're having an light-hearted sidebar conversation.

you are a miserable, annoying troll in the worst possible way. you don't seek to engage other - the primary function of a message board. Rather, you seek to disengage. you are a detriment to this board, and faux messiah complex (you know, the whole "i'm ignoring tenets of my religion to try and save you crazy liberals from socialism, marxism, communism, and leprechaunism") is older than the hills.

we're having a tongue-in-cheek conversation about pro wrestling and sports. is your life so sad, lonely, and pathetic that you can't even allow people to enjoy that without injecting your own special version of fatalistic misery into it?

if the world truly is as bad as you proclaim it to be, if the world truly is ending as you hope it to be, aren't there better things to be doing with your life than trying to "educate" a half-dozen lost souls that are doomed to hell on some political message board.

please, for the sake of us here, save yourself first!



 
860Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 11:29
Sarge

Yes the glaring dishonesty comes into view when you suddenly decide it's time to judge someone else's value system after all. Always a Reagan conservative around at those times.
 
861DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 12:05
"The funny thing is that liberals don't really believe in evil anymore."

Hilarious. I try to disbelieve in you, but it doesn't seem to work, so therefore your statement is patently false.
 
862Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 13:28
That is the upside down Satanic state of affairs in the spirit of the air, the spirit of the age.

The promotion of goodness is the new evil.

Anything goes is the new religion.
 
864Canadian Hack
      ID: 4213318
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 13:44
Baldwin

You must find it fun freaking yourself out about imaginary problems given how often you do it.

Are you schizophrenic? That is a serious question. It would explain a lot.
 
865DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 13:49
"The promotion of goodness is the new evil. "

When you start doing that instead of spewing hate speech and ignorance, I'll let you know. Until then, you have demonstrated which side of good and evil you're on, and it's not the side that you claim it is.
 
866Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 14:06
Another "black is white!" promotion, it seems.
 
867bibA
      ID: 21333213
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 14:33
When you start doing that instead of spewing hate speech and ignorance....

er, perhaps you weren't aware that the promotion of evil is the new goodness!
 
868DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 14:39
"When you start doing that instead of spewing hate speech and ignorance....

er, perhaps you weren't aware that the promotion of evil is the new goodness!"

Clearly, I cannot choose the wine in front of you.
 
869Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 17:59
I'm pretty sure implying that someone is "evil" violates the Civility policy.
 
870Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:20
Another "black is white!" promotion, it seems.

there's not a band called "Good is the New Evil", there needs to be.

in the meantime, we can get this Young Adult Classic: "Cheerleaders: The New Evil" -



 
871Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:36
I am trying to figure out if I am gently used, repurposed or
newly refreshed evil.

I am pretty sure the pope is old evil.

Sure, I laugh now, but I won't be laughing when Satan is
dining on my kidneys.
 
872Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:45
The time is coming when vampires and 'The Crow' are the new leading man heroes of culture and intact happy families will make people cringe and call in social services to take the kids away from the danger of a moral upbringing.

That time is now.
 
873Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:51
Oh give me a break. I know mockery isn't particularly helpful
to discourse, but you drop that load, it makes resisting
mockery really really hard.
 
874Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:52
The time is coming when vampires and 'The Crow'

Bram Stoker called. He wants 1897 back. James O'Barr called, and he wants 1989 back.

at least with the latter, you're barely more than 20 years too late.

the fictional world you choose to live in is much more frightening than either of those two classics.
 
875Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:01
I'd like to see a movie with Tree trapped as a houseguest of Ozzie and Harriet for life.
 
876Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:10
at this point, i have little doubt my family life is considerably more stable than yours. for starters, we don't have a raving loon for a patriarch...well, not until he's had a few scotches in him at least.
 
877Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:53
Wow. When you have to resort to using pop culture references from the 80's to back up political policy changes, you might as well pack it in.

 
878Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:57
Boldwin's pseudonym is Dale A. Robbins, perhaps?

The late 80s were such a perfect time--we all wore clothes that were highly flammable. Ronnie was the Once and Future King. And New Age was the battleground of Satan's choice.
 
879Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 20:06
The vampire is the new 'good guy' leading man, or hadn't you heard of the Twilight phenomenon?

A sequel to 'The Crow' will be released in 2011 so it is also very much a living franchise.
 
880Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 20:22
Yawn. Remember how Hollywood's brief fascination with Satanism in the 1970s would give rise to the end of our culture as we know it?

No issues with such wholesome heroes as depicted by Charles Bronson and Clint Eastwood from that time of course.
 
881sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 20:54
Yes the glaring dishonesty comes into view when you suddenly decide it's time to judge someone else's value system after all. Always a Reagan conservative around at those times.

ummm Boldwin? The political right in this country, has for the past 20 years been passing judgement on other peoples value systems. It's been the very bread-n0butter of their entire political movement. Few if any on this forum for ex, are anywhere NEAR as judgemental as you.
 
882Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 20:56
It really isn't debatable.

The Trees of the world are livid when anyone encourages morality and insist that the world approve of every vice that the whole of civilization considered wrong the whole of history up to now. They are upside down.
 
883Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 21:00
Few if any on this forum for ex, are anywhere NEAR as judgemental as you.

You insist on it. You would bully anyone who made a 'value judgement', unless that judgement was against traditional morality.
 
884tree on the treo
      ID: 287212811
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 21:26
The vampire is the new 'good guy' leading man, or hadn't you heard of the Twilight phenomenon?

its only the new leading man if you're obsessed with teenagers and pre-teens. I know of very few adult women, and no adult men, who gave two craps about Twilight...never mind that it's fiction!!!

and I have zero problem with morality. I do have a problem with hypocrite preaching it, especially when the immorality is just a figment of the hypocrite's fear-mongering imagination.
 
885Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 21:32
This is utter nonsense. Lon Cheney was one of the most famous movie actors through the middle of the 20th century. He and others were portraying supernatural antiheroes decades before The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet and The Andy Griffith Show were on television.
 
886sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 21:57
against traditional morality? lmao You ARE indeed insane. No contact, none at all, with reality. You are Boldy, delusional.
 
888astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 02:13
RE: 856

Tree, back on topic... I'm glad you recognized the levity of my statement. I can't disagree with your notion that 'professional wrestling' can be a compelling story, but can you take back your statement in 854? intelligent, open-minded, and rational people seems to be a bit of stretch when correlating fans of wrestling with that demographic.

FYI, I stand by my statement that they are fun-loving and enjoy violence. The fact that it hasn't entered your conscience recently speaks volumes about how people are de-sensitized to repeated violence, imo.

 
889Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 05:40
The promotion of antiheroes is another interesting tactic when inverting the public sense of morality as hollywood has.
 
890Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 09:14
intelligent, open-minded, and rational people seems to be a bit of stretch when correlating fans of wrestling with that demographic

it was more of a reference to wrestling fans leaning left, as opposed to wrestling fans leaning left. :oD

FYI, I stand by my statement that they are fun-loving and enjoy violence. The fact that it hasn't entered your conscience recently speaks volumes about how people are de-sensitized to repeated violence, imo.

wrestling is less violent than your real life, or even whatever movie is the hit of the week.

sure, there are some matches which are "ultra-violent" (usage of light tubes, thumb tacks, etc etc), but the vast majority of guys doing that stuff are barely wrestlers, and i'm sure no fan of that product.
 
891Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 22:22
Tree - I don't think your definition of "violent" is very accurate. Boxing is violent, wrestling is violent - men punching each other, trying to submit/pin them by brute force. It's consensual violence, but it certainly is violent.

wrestling is less violent than your real life

Really? What in the world do you think astade does? Army Ranger in Afghanistan? FARC guerrilla? I don't know anyone else whose life is more violent than the violence at a WWE event, playacting aside.

The most important thing that we learn from the chart in post 846 is that Wrestling fans are far and away the least likely to vote. Tree and MITH are exceptions.
 
892Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 12:14
Journalism and politics attracts the deranged:

Journo-politico Violence: Deadly Threat or Menacing Trend?
Dear Mr. Burge:

I have read with increasing alarm new reports of violence erupting around our country. For example, the recent rampaging campus murderer in Huntsville, Alabama; the Austin, Texas man who flew his plane into an office building; and the unhinged shooter at the Pentagon. Do you suspect these people may have been journalists? Also, what can I do to prevent my family from falling victim to these violent journalists?
But let's get to the crux of your questions: yes, in the cases you cited there is some circumstantial evidence that the alleged perpetrators harbored pre-journalistic tendencies (for instance, violent hatred of George Bush and capitalism, and messianic obsession with President Obama), but it doesn't appear they were actual professional members of the news media. For one thing, unlike the vast majority of journalists, all of the suspects involved in these crimes reportedly had actual marketable skills -- biochemistry, computer programming, growing weed, and so on. Until further evidence of journalism emerges, I believe we can attribute these incidents to a handful of those rare random psychopaths who do not possess press credentials.

Unfortunately, it now appears that these are the exceptions that prove the rule. In the two years since the MVP issued our first report, another tidal wave of media-related bizarre or violent crimes has come to light, each more shocking than the last.

------------

"Americans are accustomed to viewing their political representatives in an idealized light," explains Divad Egrub. "We assume them to be clean, friendly, hard working, nonviolent criminals, peacefully thieving away at the public trough and diligently extorting bribes from special interest groups. The politician takes advantage of this gullible trust to draw an unsuspecting constituent within striking distance. Before you know it, the constituent is dealing with an erupting volcano of psychosexual rage."
 
893DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 13:16
I'm speechless. I don't know where to begin.
 
894Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 13:27
Next up: Electricians: Secretly wiring your home so Big Brother can listen in.
 
895boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 13:31
April Fools
 
896Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 15:00
"Journalism school leaves these people ill-prepared for life in conventional society," explains Egrub. "They see typical American people expressing normal opinions, and it causes confusion. In time, they become boiling cauldrons of paranoia and rage. This triggers a 'fight or flight' reaction, and sometimes they simply lash out."

i got a good laugh out of the above line, but i'm gonna put money on the fact it really is an April Fool's joke, consider the author (David Burge) and various members of the group (dedicated staffers like Divad Egrub, Dr. Ivadd Ugber, Vadid Grube, and new intern Ddavi Grbeu)

then again, if it's not an April Fool's joke, it's even more funny. and, the fact that anyone who subscribes to that might actually believes it, makes them a fool every day of the year, not just once.

idiots will believe anything.
 
897DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 15:50
Oh, thank goodness. I missed the level if it was intentional, I'm not ashamed to admit.
 
898sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 18:58
re 892;

Journalism and politics attracts the deranged:

whether April Fools or not, there is one commonality amongst much of the recent "violent behaviors". The perps, are ultra-rightwing conservatives. WATCH OUT FOR AC!! (and B too)
 
899Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 21:26
You really haven't been paying attention, Sarge. Look at the links in there.

The point of that piece was that while left-wing politicians and journalists are latching onto a few anecdotes to support their fantasy that violence is right-wing...the details in the specific incidents they report don't even support their contention and amusingly looking in the same way at the preponderance of evidence involving politicians and journalists would be much more damning.
 
900sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Mon, Apr 05, 2010, 21:50
lmao B. You honest;y *DO* ignore facts when they very inconveniently go against your predetermined decisions.

Judge Boldwin....give them a fair trial and THEN hang them.
 
901Boldwin
      ID: 535651
      Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 07:27
Keep rereading that piece and looking up the links until the light goes on. I'm not betting your light bulb isn't broken, but you could try.
 
902astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Wed, Apr 07, 2010, 00:09
RE: 890

I don't understand your view on wrestling, but I also realize that I should probably start a thread in the wrestling forum if I want to learn more (maybe some day).

I think Seattle Zen did a good job capturing my sentiments in post 891. Btw, being a FARC guerrilla was a great example ... I only moonlight on the weekends ;)

 
904Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sun, May 09, 2010, 05:56
If ever there was proof the MSM was biased, the lifestory/career of Richard N. Kaplan proves the point.

So you know where he was to insert bias:
  • producer for Walter Cronkite
  • President of CNN-US
  • Executive Producer of ABC’s “Nightline,”
  • Executive Producer of ABC’s “Prime Time Live.”
  • Senior Vice President of ABC News
  • President of MSNBC
  • Executive Producer of The CBS Evening News with Katie Couric


    • advance man 1968 presidential campaign of Senator Eugene McCarthy
    • producer for Walter Cronkite in 1977 when Susan Thomases introduced him to the obscure Attorney General of Arkansas named Bill Clinton.
    • hired Hillary Clinton to work on coverage of the 1980 Democratic convention
    • During the 1980s Kaplan helped talk Bill Clinton out of giving up politics to take a million-dollar job on Wall Street.
    • After Clinton’s much-ridiculed speech at the 1988 Democratic convention in Atlanta, writes Margolick, “it was Kaplan’s shoulder Clinton cried on, over Chinese takeout…” and Kaplan who persuaded Clinton that his political career was not over.
    • influenced ABC News to delay reporting for three crucial days its discovery of the 1969 Clinton letter to Col. Eugene Holmes. This is the notorious letter, as described by Accuracy in Media, in which “Clinton confessed to having tricked Col. Holmes, getting him to violate federal law to get him ROTC deferment” and in which Clinton “said he loathed the military.” The delay gave Clinton time to prepare damage control to blunt the letter’s impact.
    • Kaplan in 1992 advised candidate Bill Clinton how to deal with the Gennifer Flowers affair issue, recommended that the Clintons appear on rival CBS’s program “60 Minutes,” and advised the Clintons on how to handle that interview.
    • In his 1994 book Strange Bedfellows, a study of press coverage of the 1992 campaign, Los Angeles Times reporter Tom Rosentiel described, in Margolick’s words, “a frantic evening when Clinton called Kaplan repeatedly, baring his soul and seeking strategic advice.”
    • “when Clinton’s campaign struggled in the New York primary, Kaplan rode to the rescue again, getting Clinton booked on the Don Imus radio show. Kaplan not only arranged the interview, he prepared him for it – and ABC cameras taped both ends of the conversation and aired it on ‘Nightline.’ Later, Kaplan did not deny a Spy Magazine report that he boasted of attending Clinton campaign staff meetings and helped set up the campaign’s press office.”
    • “Kaplan killed [ABC reporter] Jim Wooten’s exclusive interview with an Arkansas state trooper who claimed a Clinton aide had tried to muzzle him,” reported Margolick. “After that, Wooten refused to do any more pieces on Whitewater.” Another ABC news producer told Margolick that “the bar kept getting higher” for such investigations into Clinton dealings with Whitewater.
    • with evidence of campaign fundraising improprieties threatening to submerge Bill Clinton, CNN unleashed a Kaplan-produced special. U.S. News & World Report found that Kaplan had ordered CNN reporters to “limit the use of the word ‘scandal’ in reporting on Clinton’s campaign fundraising.” The message to CNN reporters was clear: go easy on the boss’s friends in the White House.
    • As the Lewinsky scandal broke in 1998, wrote Graham, “Kaplan leapt into action at CNN with two-hour specials attacking any and all Clinton critics. The programs included ‘Media Madness,’ which asked ‘what the hell are you people doing’ probing Bill Clinton’s sex life?; and ‘Investigating the Investigator,’ which described Ken Starr as ‘suspect’ over his ‘religious and Republican roots.’
 
905Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, May 09, 2010, 10:10
the lifestory/career of Richard N. Kaplan proves the point.

one person's career proves a point?!!?

in that case, the MSM is clearly biased toward the Right - one need look no further than the multiple Republicans and Conservatives who served in office who are part of the most watched News in the country, Fox.
 
906DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, May 09, 2010, 12:09
Oh, but Tree, they're all like that, except for the zillion examples from the other side. But those people aren't actually part of the media you see, they're just part of the angelic counter-revolution.

Except when they're to be used as a trusted source, of course, then they're as mainstream as it gets and not part of some angelic counter-revolution.

So, you see, it depends on what you're trying to argue as to whether Fox News is part of the mainstream media or not. The only mainstream media to be trusted is what Boldwin already believes; anyone else who disagrees with them is to be double-plus-untrusted.

Have you learned NOTHING?
 
907Boldwin
      ID: 199353118
      Sun, Oct 31, 2010, 19:38
CBS affiiatte, Anchorage Alaska tech glitch reveals them plotting to sabotage Joe Miller. Dig up a child molester at his rally, hope someone punches him and how they could capitalize on it.
In the first portion of the discussion, the CBS reporters are heard plotting to get a list of Miller campaign supporters in order to "find" a "child molester."

"You have to find that one person," says the male reporter, seemingly McDermott, to laughter in the news room.

The KTVA reporters then discuss creating a "Rand Paul" incident at a Miller rally, which was actually held this past Thursday, hoping for violence so that they can "send out a tweet" and "Facebook" that "Miller got punched" at the rally.
 
908Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Oct 31, 2010, 20:43
I heard it was just a snippet, without context, and that Palin refuses to release the whole audio which might provide context. The reporters could very well have been joking around.

Of course, the Wacky Right doesn't need context--it needs a liberal media.

Later Palin went on FOX News, saying that CBS stands for "Corrupt Bastards Club." Which seems to show that her Spelling Aide was given the weekend off.
 
909Boldwin
      ID: 489323122
      Sun, Oct 31, 2010, 23:32
Yeah, if Fox was on tape hunting for a perv in Obama's rally to tar him with and hoping he was punched in the face you'd be yawning and you'd let me sweep it under the rug with a spelling error.

But then it's been a long long time since you could be a fair judge.
 
910Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 00:47
You don't have enough to judge. Hasn't stopped you in this case, however. You just run with whatever might be helpful in slamming your fellow citizens.

You willingness to co-mingle your religious inflexibility with shallow news-cycle oriented far Right politics has endangered both for you. Tell me: How would Jesus partisan slam?
 
911Boldwin
      ID: 49104717
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 08:47
From a white horse, with long sword, had you ever read Revelations.
 
912Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:11
Uh, right.


Media Matters makes a few interesting observations, including that FOX News Channel will not verify Palin's claim that the employees heard on the tape were inventing aany news event (not that that should stop them from playing it over and over, usually with no authenticity disclaimer for viewers who might confuse FNC programming with factual news coverage).

Maybe it is what Palin saysit is. But it can't pass the smell test if they refuse to release the whole tape.
 
913Boldwin
      ID: 49104717
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:19
Riiight, gleeflly conspiring to make partisan smears is all about context. A context we all understand. l-i-b-e-r-a-l-m-e-d-i-a-b-i-a-s
 
914Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:25
l-i-b-e-r-a-l-m-e-d-i-a-b-i-a-s

So we're clear, you're making this accusation of FOX news.
 
915Boldwin
      ID: 49104717
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:29
The day you come up with a smoking gun as serious as this CBS conversation.
 
916Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:38
the CBS reporters are heard plotting

They are not CBS reporters. They are KTVA reporters. KTVA is owned by Affiliated Media. They are a CBS affiliate, which means they carry CBS programming, but their news department is local and completely independent of CBS.

Sarah Palin knows this, so her characterization on FOX News, saying that CBS stands for "Corrupt Bastards Club" as it relates to this non-story, is based on a lie.



 
917Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:45
smoking gun

An example of a smoking gun was Little Greeen Football's takedown of Dan Rather's career in 2004. This is an audio clip that might or might not be what the party refusing to release the whole tape claims. Another example is an email sent by James O'Keefe to his partner about his plan to "seduce, videotape and embarrass" a CNN reporter trying to interview him.

And of course it's about context! When did full understanding of expression become the enemy of the American political right?

The station says the clip is from a part of a production meeting discussing potentialities during the event. You think a local news production meeting would never discuss something like how to react to a fight breaking out before coverage at a political rally?

What we hear in that clip doesnt make either account any more likely than the other.

I'll reserve judgement while I wonder why the party holding the complete audio doesn't release it if their accusation is honest. You on the other hand will fill in the gaps with your abject wingnut distrust of non-rightwing media and your disturbing wingnut martyr fetish.
 
918Boldwin
      ID: 49104717
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:46
Look at yourself. That is the debased state of discourse here where such an insignificant finepoint constitutes lying and vindication.
 
919Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 09:58
this CBS conversation.

Look at yourself. You're repeating a lie, then have the audacity to talk about the debased state of discourse here?

 
920Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:04
Déjà vu:
10 Boldwin
ID: 376192015
Mon, Aug 10, 2009, 14:41 What is confusing you, Mith is that Gladney is wearing a light blue shirt and he is on the ground from the very first frame of that video. You are mistaking his light blue shirt in poor lighting conditions with hulking thugs standing over him, for a dark blue SEIU shirt.

11 Boldwin
ID: 376192015
Mon, Aug 10, 2009, 14:43 And the SEIU attacker and faker comes out holding his shoulder, like the true dishonest abuser of the system that he is.

12 Mith
ID: 2894309
Mon, Aug 10, 2009, 14:47 You're saying that seeing Gadney, clad in light blue, on the ground, is ample evidence that he was assaulted?


13 Boldwin
ID: 376192015
Mon, Aug 10, 2009, 14:51 There are multiple angles showing the guy on top stomping on Gladney. Absolutely I am saying it's indesputable.
 
921DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:05
Hey, if this is the best he's got (and it is), let him rant. I need another reminder of the evil to be fought in the world.
 
922Boldwin
      ID: 49104717
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:10
That is a distinction no one makes in common parlance and a straw so flimsy only people in such desperate political straights, caught in bed with your media whore-for-a-mistress, would grasp at.
 
923Tree, not at home
      ID: 18342816
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:16
Another example is an email sent by James O'Keefe to his partner about his plan to "seduce, videotape and embarrass" a CNN reporter trying to interview him.

and let's not forget, this is one of Baldwin's heroes. someone he praises and lauds, even while the man is committing felonies.

*that* is a context that is important.
 
924Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:16
The dishonesty in calling these KTVA reporters CBS reporters and a CBS conversation is so blatant that it insults the intelligene.

KTVA is a tiny operation with a tiny audience. By putting CBS in the equation, it's made to look like a huge national conspiracy by the liberal media. Who do you think you're kidding?
 
925Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:18
The distinction of not being a CBS owned and operated affiliate means that it's editorial content likely receives vert little influence from it's mainstream national network affiliation.
 
926Boldwin
      ID: 49104717
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:29
It will be interesting how the msm handles this story.
 
927Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:32
Look at how proud she is of herself there. She can barely contain her glee. Her OMGOMGOMG moment.

Martyr fetish.
 
928Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:38
it's editorial content likely receives vert little influence from it's mainstream national network affiliation

More like none. The NBC affiliate here in Salt Lake is owned by Bonneville Communications, which is owned by the LDS Church. NBC has no say in the local editorial or news gathering operation. For 20 years, KSL has refused to air NBC's "Saturday Night Live" because of its raunchy content.

Anchorage is the 150th media market in the country. All CBS cares about this station is whether "Criminal Minds" has better ratings than "Law and Order:SVU."
 
929Boldwin
      ID: 49104717
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:49
The bottomline is that this is the msm caught red-handed conspiring to sabotage the conservative candidate. You know darn well how personally invested they are in swaying the outcome leftward.
 
930Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:55
The bottomline is Sarah Palin is lying on Fox News about CBS reporters so obsessed folks like yourself can claim an MSM conspiracy.
 
931Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 10:56
Mainstream does not mean non-rightwing. It means large, pervasive and influential because it is generally accepted as the standard by a very large number of people. The best cable tv example of mainstream media is FNC. By far.

A small affil which is not a network O&O in the #150 rank media market is not a mainstream outlet.
 
932Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 11:38
MM
While Palin insists the story "proves" the journalists involved are "corrupt bastards," Politico's Ben Smith notes that the "transcript does not, in fact, make it terribly clear what they're talking about."

But it's not just the "lamestream media" that haven't signed on to Palin's allegations. Fox News' Brit Hume said tonight that while the tape "doesn't sound very good," it is "not utterly conclusive."

And Fox News correspondent Dan Springer reported today, "We actually had some of our staffers look at some of the more recent articles and stories that KTVA has done to see if there was any obvious bias or hit pieces again Joe Miller, and we couldn't find that. We could not see any obvious signs of bias or hit pieces done by KTVA against Joe Miller."
 
933Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 23:18
I'll look forward to Brit Hume's hit piece on Obama's sex offenders then. Aparently he reserves the right to use the tactic and libs are now on the record saying it's no big deal. I suggest he starts with the office of the 'safe school' czar.
 
934Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 23:46
Is that what you are reduced to? Calling Obama out for hiring "sex offenders?"

Hard to believe, that you've actually lowered the floor in political discourse.
 
935Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 23:55
You guys say it's ok when the target is Joe Miller. Look in the mirror when asking how we got here.
 
936Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Nov 01, 2010, 23:57
Uh, no we didn't. And no one has demonstrated that anyone actually did.
 
949Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 12:24
"Corrupt bastards. CBS/media plot against Joe Miller before our Anchorage rally Thurs Kinda'what I've put up w for 2 yrs http://bit.ly/cmbzMr," she[Sarah Palin] exclaimed on Twitter

CBS/media plot against Joe Miller

Let's talk slander. How is it possible for someone to complain about being slandered when they support such obvious slander on a national level? Palin is leveling serious accusations without one shred of evidence that CBS is in any way involved in any media plot. It's an intentional fabrication aimed at one of this country's major corporations by someone who claims to represent America's values. To paraphrase, I'm going to direct you to the gleeful politician/media personality planning such a smear and point out someone here thot it wasn't a big deal. Worse really, compounding the fabrication by identfying the alleged culprits as CBS reporters.

Blindly accepting this slanderous charge against CBS appears to be no big deal, because CBS is on the liberal media bias hit list, therefore they are immune to any type of fair and balanced evaluation. Is this representative of America's values in the eyes of conservatives? Has conservatism been so bastardized by the likes of Sarah Palin that it is unrecognizable by the spirit of Reagan, Buckley and Goldwater?
 
951DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 12:44

Re: PV's point -- no, I don't think it's representative of America's views in the eyes of conservatives. I think it's representative of America's views in the eyes of a very vocal crazy minority which happens to have some very loud and very visible mouthpieces, a surprisingly large quantity of people in political power who are either crazy themselves or believe that pandering to that crazy minority is the way to win an election, and a fairly gullible audience of a large percentage of the population who don't bother to think critically about anything and believe whatever they are told.

That this very vocal crazy minority of people has publicly stated that they really don't care about the truth but only care about smearing liberals or getting them voted out of office no matter what the cost to truth, integrity, or the country they purport to love and defend but really are trying to pervert to their own ends, is a sad and pathetic indictment of them, but not of us. But those people really aren't conservatives anyway, so it's probably as unfair to smear conservatives with their intellectual feces as it is to smear all the Muslims with the feces of terrorism.
 
952DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 13:06
And I'll add (and this equally for myself as well as for any rational poster here) that it's really, really important to try to distinguish the truly crazy people, the people who are agreeing with the truly crazy people just because they haven't thought about it enough, and the people who merely disagree with you about most things.

And in my opinion it's vitally important as part of that discussion to shine the light on those truly crazy people, so that we don't let their numbers grow, because those crazy people prey on the weak-minded and the apathetic, and so the rest of us can try to have reasonable discussions.

It's also vitally important to identify the people in that second group, the ones that just haven't bothered to think about things, who might be persuaded to think about things a little more clearly and to moderate their views. That's where we reduce the ranks of the crazy population and can start discussing things rationally. And this is why I tend to try to react pretty strongly to the crazy talk -- it's important to find out which column someone's in. I guess it's probably a lost cause on this board.
 
953Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 14:18
PV

Have you actually watched Palin's interview? She was repeatedly very very precise about calling them affiliates.

Now they are CBS' face in Alaska and common parlance would virtually never ever make that minute distinction but Palin was careful to, so you should really get that foaming at the mouth tic you've developed under control on this issue.
 
954Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 18:03
I quoted exactly from her twitter. There's no misunderstanding.

so you should really get that foaming at the mouth tic you've developed under control on this issue.

I should do whatever I please. Quit trying to destroy my freedoms.
 
955Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 18:26
Tell me truly. Before you invented this issue had you ever actually uttered out loud the phrase 'affiliate reporter'?
 
956Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 18:50
She was repeatedly very very precise about calling them affiliates.


@roughly :24 into the video-

Sarah Palin -"CBS reporters, the affiliate in Alaska"

then at about the :50 mark:

Fox host -"You're saying that local reporters conspired...."

Sarah Palin - " I am saying, and we have it on tape, that the CBS reporters in the affiliate up there in Alaska....."

She was very very precise in identifying them as CBS reporters...twice. Affiliates was an afterthought.

Even after the host asked if local reporters conspired, she was very precise in identifying them as CBS reporters.

She very clearly and specifically indicts CBS, even though she knows better than anyone that those are local flunkies in the 150th media market that no one outside of the 49th state gives a rat's ass about. But insert CBS as the villian in the scenario, which she explicitly did twice during the Fox interview, and it's a national outrage.

Your feeble defense of the indefensible, compounded by a lame attempt to insult me, only shows the depths of denial in play here as well as a complete refusal to intelligently approach Palin's slanderous intentions.

 
957Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 18:59
Tell me truly. Before you invented this issue had you ever actually uttered out loud the phrase 'affiliate reporter'?

I worked in the media. I've worked as a reporter. I worked for Major Networks in Chicago as an affiliate rep for over 100 radio stations.
I forgot more than you know about affiliates and their reporters.
 
958biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 19:30
Ouch.

A little makeup will cover the bruises, baldy old boy.
 
959Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 19:54
Soooo, I guess that would be "yes" then.
 
960Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 20:05
It should also be noted that Palin was employed by The local media (including KTVA, according to Wikipedia) as on-air talent. Do you think she thought she was employed by CBS the whole time she was there?
 
961Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 20:07
Well, what's her resume say?
 
962Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 20:11
I'm betting Oxford University.
 
963Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 20:13
No one besides a media insider has ever thot to utter that two word phrase. They will say 'Carol Marin of CBS, or Carol Marin of channel five but never 'affiliate reporter', never.

This is as bogus an issue as anyone has ever thrown a fit over on this board.
 
964Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 20:14
Agreed. Tell Palin to knock it off.
 
965Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 20:18
No one besides a media insider has ever thot to utter that two word phrase.

considering you probably don't watch TV news, you've probably missed the numerous times a national anchor has said something akin to "and now, from our affiliate reporter at KDIP in Illinois" or even a local newscast has thrown a story to an affiliate reporter in another city covering a story they want to report on.
 
966Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 20:21
Well you're right that a reporter signoff never includes the word "affiliate" but I'm at a loss for the relevence of that factoid. And as my previous post points out, you don't come across much more of an insider than someone who actually worked for that station.
 
967Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 21:14
This is as bogus an issue as anyone has ever thrown a fit over on this board.

That's because you're trying to change the subject to "affiliate reporter" a term that's meaningless and that you introduced as a strawman.

This is really simple.

If you're a local reporter at a CBS affiliate, independently owned and operated, then that's what you are.

CBS reporters at an Alaskan affiliate is what you aren't.

It's not a bogus issue because you say so. You seem to be saying that Palin is so dense that she can't help herself by blurting CBS!CBS!, apparently still smarting because Katie Couric asked her some basic questions she couldn't handle.

I made my case.















 
968Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 21:26
My issue with you is that you smeared good people as dishonest because the phrase 'affiliate reporter' doesn't leap to mind.
 
969Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 21:31
Let me quote from Palin's twitter once again:

CBS/media plot against Joe Miller

I suppose affiliate reporter doesn't leap to mind because it's never mentioned nor implied. Now, what comes to mind when someone says CBS/Media plot?

 
970Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 21:35
Because we all speak with exquisite carefuly premeditated precision when our thumbs are flying over the Backberry.
 
971Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 21:37
They're tweets, not the Gettysberg address.
 
972Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 21:52
That tweet came from Newsmax, which bills itself as the #1 conservative website in the world.

Meanwhile, a 7 minute segment on Fox with Joe Miller, contains not one reference to CBS by either Miller or the Fox host.
 
973Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 21:59
Fancy nickle-plated tweet police badge is in the mail. Probably.
 
974Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 22:01
Because we all speak with exquisite carefuly premeditated precision when our thumbs are flying over the Backberry.

so now you're saying we shouldn't be responsible for our own words!?!?!?

that's your answer?
 
975Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 22:02
Because we all speak with exquisite carefuly premeditated precision when our thumbs are flying over the Backberry.

Well, I appreciate the humour, but if she does run for Prez, that would be a great ad for her opponent(Hillary?).

Is this the woman you want with her thumb on the launch button, the one who mistakes CBS for KTVA on her Blackberry?
 
976Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 22:04
Oops, nickel-plated...phew, almost had to order him a spelling badge too.
 
977Boldwin
      ID: 481011122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2010, 22:07
Is this the woman you want with her thumb on the launch button, the one who mistakes CBS for KTVA on her Blackberry?

Hey, she knows exactly where Russia is.
 
978Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 19:54
I'd still like to know if B thinks Palin walked around calling herself a CBS sportscaster while she was employed with KTVA. I also can't help but wonder how many people at KTVA who supported her political career were compleely blindsided by her attack on them, after (according to FOX) not running a single unfairly disparraging story on Miller throughout hs campaign. Swallow your friends whole if you think making them your enemy works to your advantage, huh?

What a cheap scumbag she is.
 
979Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 20:19
They were planning one.
 
980Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 20:24
Says the guy who dismisses the very notions of context and honesty when there are "consevative" martyrs to anoint. There was only one unfairly disparraging story in this case and it was told by Joe Miller and Sarah Palin.

You know this, Christian.
 
981Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 20:36
Pretending what those reporters were doing was no big deal is the dishonest travesty [and professional courtesy apparently].
 
982DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 20:52
Things I would take ahead of your and Sarah Palin's obviously unbiased and agenda-free word as to what actually happened:

1. The full videotape
2. Paul the Octopus's determination (I don't care if he's dead)
3. A Ouija board
4. A random cow defecating on a Ouija board

Things you would refuse take as evidence in place of Sarah Palin's word:

1. A thousand videotapes
2. Fifty eyewitnesses
3. A direct message from God himself telling Sarah to back off.
 
983Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 21:12
Pretending that what you heard on that excerpted tape is conclusive of what you claim is false witness. And for the record I've offered no denial. As usual I am the agnostic and you are the fundamentalst.
 
984Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 06:59
For our safety's sake I hope that when the NSA listen's to terrorists discussing how they will blow up a particular building, and go into detail about successful tactics, that they say, 'hey, these are terrorists'.
 
985Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 07:14
It was conclusive enuff for that CBS affiliate to fire those two producers.
 
986Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 08:25
you didn't even read your own link, did you?
 
987Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 08:48
Putting aside the charges of PC politics the rest of us would doubtlessly be subject to if Joe Miller were instead a Dem candidate, the KTVA producers were specifically not fired because the tape released by the Miller campaign was conclusive.
 
988Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 09:08
WND confirms its irrelevance as a news organization in the link in #985. It initially refers to CBS employees, then CBS reporters, before correcting themselves with KTVA employeers[misspelled, nice editing].

It then provides the originaL lie from Sarah Palin,

"I am saying that we have on tape the CBS reporters in the affiliate up there in Alaska saying,

It's been established under no uncertain terms that no CBS employee and no CBS reporter is connected to this incident. WND is more than happy to repeat this lie, and Baldwin continues to ignore its signifigance.

From another thread earlier today:

We are well into the age when Orwell foresaw words losing meaning. You can find a liberal site the rationalizes, minimizes and calls the moon the sun over every scandal and issue your side is vulnerable on.

Baldwin and his WND masters fit this analysis perfectly.

 
989Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 09:47
It was conclusive enuff.
 
990Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 09:52
of what?
 
991Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 09:55
#985
 
992DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 10:01
Re: 988 -- *shrug* Liars are gonna lie, but pointing it out, THAT'S the real problem around here.
 
993Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 10:12
It's amusing watching Baldwin engage in the Orwellian word games he constantly warns about.

I've decided to e-mail WND to see if they'll print a correction to their ficticious claims.
 
994Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 10:19
Libs' favorite Soros funded media commentary explaining America rejected the GOP Tues.



Yeah that's reality based. If there's any nugget of truth there it's that the GOP was punnished for any deviation from core GOP principles. The opposite of MM's contention.

Libs always working to make Orwell seem prescient.
 
995Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 10:33
We are going to agree to disagree about your contentious distinction without a difference, PV. I honestly believe it is no big whoop.
 
996DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 10:47
"If there's any nugget of truth there it's that the GOP was punnished for any deviation from core GOP principles"

Which is why people are running to WRITE IN someone that was voted out of office by the "core Republican principles" in Alaska.
 
997Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 10:49
The GOP was punished by voting in Democrats in those races? Really?
 
998Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 10:53
your contentious distinction

There's no contentious distinction.

WND identified the KTVA employees as CBS employees and CBS reporters. That's false.
What's to contend, except your Orwellian attempts to spin an obvious falsehood into an acceptable presentation? Dishonesty = Honesty.

How much more Orwellian can you get?
 
999Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 11:02
Common Parlance, PV.

You are trying to hang your opponent for a distinction that just does not show up in common parlance.

 
1000Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 11:11
You're defense is laughable. Dishonesty = common parlance.

For the last time, CBS is in no way involved, yet Palin and WND insert CBS at every turn in an obvious attempt to indict CBS as a co-conspirator.

CBS/media plot. In common parlance, how do you deduce that CBS is in no way involved in this incident?
 
1001Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 11:16
You are asking the public and public players to speak in 'media insider speak'.

Homey don't play dat.
 
1002Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 11:18
So even though the error has been pointed out to you, you still insist on lying?

Nice.
 
1003Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 11:31
I'll give you an analogue in the world of science.

You will see pictures and icons of atoms with they're little electron planets orbiting in prominent science journals and government agencies and general media alike.

In reality the electron location exist in quantum indeterminate probability clouds that bare no resemblance to planetary orbits.

An article going into greater detail might eventually explain that, if it's a science magazine, but honest people who know better don't feel constrained to get red in the face spitting out 'liar' everytime the see the old familiar iconic image used in common parlance.
 
1004Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 11:40
You're engaging in an untruth told specifically to smear CBS. This isn't hard.

You dancing around the issue doesn't change it. [Neither does your religion, apparently. Intent is suppose to mean something in Christianity, but you've seemingly convinced yourself that your smearing behavior is somehow OK].

You're a big boy--you can use the right words despite the right words not hurting your perceived political enemies enough for your tastes.
 
1005DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 11:41
Let me correct your analogy:

Instead of atoms and electrons, you're showing a picture of a piece of candy with a rich nougaty center and a chocolate shell and trying to explain that because they're both roughly elliptical in shape you should just understand that this is close enough and that you can ignore the fact that it looks like some idiot has actually sucked what you're sure was peanut butter out of the nougaty center and just fill in the blanks yourself because there's supposed to be something there even though in reality there isn't anything there at all. When shown a picture of a Resse's Peanut Butter Cup, you insist that it's really got a nougaty center and anyone who expects to be shown actual peanut butter filling in a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup is a marxist moron.

(Perhaps we had too much leftover Halloween candy.)
 
1006Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 12:16
You are asking the public and public players to speak in 'media insider speak'.

Palin held the position of KTVA on-air talent. You don't get any more "insider" than that. She knows exactly what she's saying and at this point, so do you.
 
1007DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 12:33
Palin held the position of KTVA on-air talent. You don't get any more "insider" than that. She knows exactly what she's saying and at this point, so do you.

This is the most relevant part. I'm actually OK with making the slip once. Twice, even (well, I would be if I didn't know beyond any doubt that it wasn't a slip at all.) Heck, we all use sloppy language from time to time. But when you get corrected about it roughly a dozen times and THEN PERSIST IN CONTINUING, you're no longer "failing to invoke common parlance", you're deliberately a lying sack of garbage.

It's kind of like saying "I don't like Muslims because they blow up our buildings" might accidentally not be bigoted once, but after being asked "oh, so you hate the 0.0001% that are actually responsible for blowing stuff up, and also the 0.01% that actually might want to actively blow up stuff, you don't really mean you hate all the Muslims" and then you say "yes I do... but how dare you call me bigoted"... yeah, sorry. You keep defiantly saying stupid stuff after being corrected, you're a bigoted lying sack of garbage. Hypothetically, of course, and not addressing any specific person on this forum, heaven forfend, because that would be wrong.
 
1008Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 12:39
Clearly Palin is trying to get back at her former employer, CBS.
 
1009Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 17:18
You're engaging in an untruth told specifically to smear CBS. This isn't hard.

This is just a sneaky way to change the subject when you libs are once again caught red-handed. We already saw how low a CBS reporter and producer will go because we saw it amply with Dan Rather and now we see the MSM is biased left corrupt up and down and thru and thru. I know it and you know it and you can wave yer arms any other direction you want but it won't get you off the hook.
 
1010Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 18:10
As already established, KTVA is not mainsteam media by any definition except the false one you insist on using.
 
1011DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 18:13
But but --- one of them (allegedly, even though I refuse to provide all the evidence because I know it'll disprove my lies said something, therefore all of the mainstream media are bad!!!!

Just like one of them brown desert peoples blew stuff up so all of them are bad!

Just like all them poor peoples trying to steal mah health care, cuz there's only so much to go 'round, so all them poor peoples are bad!

--Sarah Palin and Boldwin
XOXOXOXOX
 
1012Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 18:37
#1009: Caught red handed at what? You can't say because you have no context for the quotes. And (worse) you don't want context because this might make your argument moot or misplaced.

You are so worried about being right about this that you can't stop to see if your entire argument is built on anything solid. (Hint: You don't know what it is built on).

I genuinely don't know if they were caught or not, because we (you or I) don't have enough to make that decision.
 
1013Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 18:42
How lame can you be, MITH?

In Alaska it is the MSM. Where else did you think mattered? Did I imply they were the mainstream Milwalkee media?
 
1014Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 18:46
If that convo doesn't violate your ethical standards, MITH, you don't belong anywhere near the media.
 
1015Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 18:57
1. You always speak of MSM as if it's a singular entity.
2. If there is a media-fed zeitgeist in Alaska, it isn't leftist.
3. Palin is on record telling ODonnell and other tea party candidates to avoid MSM and only talk to local media.

You long ago surrendered your right to have your Orwell references taken seriously. You are a hypocrite and the rotoguru king of newspeak.
 
1016Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 19:04
I could not possibly be less interested in where you think I belong. I have no idea whether that convo violates my ethical standards because I only heard a brief and intermittant portion of it. And you are the last person I would trust to fill inthe blanks, given your track record of what you find "indisputable."
 
1017Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 21:00
We already saw how low a CBS reporter and producer will go because we saw it amply with Dan Rather and now we see the MSM is biased left corrupt up and down and thru and thru. I know it and you know it and you can wave yer arms any other direction you want but it won't get you off the hook.

Finally, some honesty. It's OK to lie about CBS because we know how low they'll go. We know the MSM is biased left, and it's OK to lie in order to counter their dastardly attacks on conservatives. It's not only OK, it's admirable.

Thanks for finally setting the record straight.
 
1018Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 22:29
We've now seen them do the same thing nationally and locally and we've seen everyone in the newsroom think it's a hilarious great idea.
 
1019Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 23:29
why is anyone shocked at Baldwin's stance on this?

he has repeatedly praised liars and frauds, and no matter their dishonesty, as long as they are on his side of the aisle, they are his heroes.

he has never denied this. he has said they are doing a right and just thing by "exposing" liberals and the MSM, and if they have to lie and deceive to do that, he is a-ok with this.

 
1020Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 23:53
It's OK to lie about CBS because we know how low they'll go. We know the MSM is biased left, and it's OK to lie in order to counter their dastardly attacks on conservatives. It's not only OK, it's admirable.

It's the FOX News Mission Statement! We're proudly biased to counter theirs.
 
1021Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 00:19
I await a tape of Brit Hume and producer plotting dirty tricks. Until then...
 
1022Boldwin
      ID: 0102036
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 00:24
I assume no matter how egregious, you'll all be scratching your heads trying to figure out the big deal. Meanwhile PV continues to fulminate over the most picayune distinctions of insider-speak.
 
1023Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 00:45
I await a tape of Brit Hume and producer plotting dirty tricks. Until then...

maybe you actually DO get it. Brit Hume is a SENIOR political analyst for FOX NEWS. The Network.

not an affiliate station, but the NETWORK.

you see the difference?
 
1024Boldwin
      ID: 25103557
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 08:41
I fully get that the entire media is corrupted with the exception of a handful of radio talkers and half a TV network and Obama is working on shutting off that lifeline as well.
 
1025Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 09:12
FTR (again) it was Hume who pointed out that there was nothing conclusive in the tape released by the Miller campaign.

Also, I should know better than to ask but I'm very curious to hear which half of Fox News is not corrupt. The side that often fails to live up to it's journalistic standards (Special Report, Fox News Sunday) the side that believes it is not in any way bound by anything resembling journalistic integrity (Hannity, Beck, O'Riley) or the side that shamelessly claims to offer balanced reporting but is actually just another opinion show hosted by a bubblehead (Megyn Kelly).
 
1026DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 09:54
I just want to know which half of BBC he's calling corrupt, to start with.
 
1027Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 09:58
The second B.
 
1028Boldwin
      ID: 25103557
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 10:05
I'll just point out that there are just too many scientologists in high places to trust them in crunch-time especially visa-vis euthanasia and CAIR can get a story quashed from time to time. If other news networks can run with Olberman, Maddow and Schultz, don't expect me to apologize for Beck and O'Reilly.
 
1029DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 10:24
If other networks can run with Hannity, Beck and O'Reilly, don't expect anyone else to apologize for Olbermann and Maddow. (The word "news" intentionally omitted.)

And, in neither case, is it appropriate to anoint one the One True Source for Information and the other as a bunch of scheming scumbags, as you constantly do. (I'll give you a hint, though, this is about half right, so I'll give you credit for being 50% more right than usual.)
 
1030The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:00
the side that shamelessly claims to offer balanced reporting but is actually just another opinion show hosted by a bubblehead (Megyn Kelly).

One thing I'll say about this is at least the rest of the media does not even bother with the statement "balanced". Who would believe it?
 
1031DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:04
You might be surprised at the relatively low percentage if it were tried -- which is why those of us who feel that it's equally inappropriate in the case of Fox News, who DOES actually purport to be so, are so stunned at THEIR staunch defenders. Does that make sense?
 
1032walk
      ID: 348442710
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:09
I make it clear where I stand, so that bias is clear, but regardless, while MSNBC is as biased as Fox News in terms of their political bent, is there really consensus that the arguments made by each of those two networks are equally substantive? I don't think they are. I think Fox News goes further into the mud and bizarroland.
 
1033Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:19
at least the rest of the media does not even bother with the statement "balanced". Who would believe it?

You miss the point. 'Fair and balanced', an obvious lie t begin with, comes in lieu of any pretense of objectivity. They have no regard for it.
 
1034The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:25
So what Mith? As if the liberal networks and newspapers have any regard for objectivity at all or at least should state their slant.
 
1035Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:26
Walk

I don't watch a lot of MSNBC but what I've seen of Shultz leaves me with the impression he is no better than Beck and of Olberrman is that he's no better than O'Riley. I do find Maddow a cut above that group (including Hannity) and of course MSNBC has ther mrning show hosted by a former House rep who is a Republican. I cant speak on MSNBC's actual news coverage, but Id be surprised to fin an anchor in the bsiness as openly and shamelessly biased as Greg Jarrett.
 
1036Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:29
1034

Some are worse than others. As I said in the previous post I can't offer a comparison of news coverage on FNC with MSNBC. There's no question news coverage on CNN is far more objectively presented, however.
 
1037Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:50
Putting out biased news (really, opinion) in reaction to perceived biased news by others doesn't make one fair or balanced.

FOX News is like state-owned media in a third world country. It's too bad the people who listen to it aren't aware of other viewpoints out there, and are subjected to being used politically because other, unrelated media might be "biased."
 
1038The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:50
Are there any websites or media outlets that gossip about members of the media in the same way the media gossips about celebrities or public figures?
 
1039Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:52
Yes: FOX. And CNN, to a large degree.
 
1040Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:54
I don't understand the relevence of 1038.
 
1041Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 13:57
Fox News is news for people who want their news with a slant. Some of their coverage is negligibly biased, but other, significant parts of their programming are designed to speak to a right-wing audience. CNN, CBS, et al do not come anywhere close to the level of bias or lack of journalistic integrity at times that Fox News does as a practice. MSNBC is very biased, but rarely resorts to building stories out of nothing as Fox does routinely.
 
1042Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 14:12
Olbermann suspended for Dem contributions from cnn.com
 
1043Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 14:26
Good for CNN.
 
1044DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 14:40
Those supporting Fox News' right to compensate for the apparent biases of others by biasing things in the opposite direction, while simultaneously opposing affirmative action programs, have some 'splaining to do.
 
1045bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 14:45
And good for MSNBC.
 
1046Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 16:07
It's important to remember to distinguish between news and opinion programming. FOX rushes to point out this distinction whenever the fairness and balance of their programming s called into question. But it's anything but cut and dry because Fox built itself on blurring that distinction, with it's competietors following suit on what they saw as a successful model. For example, Megyn Kelly regularly repeats the dual fox mantra of "fair and balanced" and "we report you decide" but has anyone who has watched that show really going to claim it's something other than an opinion program?

Also, I have to admit being pleasantly surprised by both the standards MSNBC displays with regard to campaign contributions and their willingness to uphold them. Maybe I'm wrong to put them in the same camp as FNC. Does anyone think Sean Hanninty and Glenn Beck arent allowed to contribute to political campaigns?
 
1047DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 16:11
Nittery alery (but it matters): he wasn't suspended for making the contributions, he was suspended for not clearing them with MSNBC first.
 
1048Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 16:19
Fair enough. In the aricle CNN claims to have a similar standard. Anyone know if FNC does with regard to their producers or on air talent?
 
1049Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 16:32
That seems incredibly unlikely considering that half of their on-air talent are former GOP politicians and/or current Tea Party fundraisers/architects.
 
1050WiddleAvi
      ID: 32559
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 16:33
From this link

Fox News as a company, as an employer, gave $1 million to the Republican Governors Association,
 
1051Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 16:36
If he'd gone to management for approval, they are likely to have said "no."
 
1052DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Nov 05, 2010, 17:06
Meh, maybe (somewhere between maybe and probably is about right).

It's more likely that they would have taken care to not have Keith commenting on those races which he made contributions to, or told him "you can make those but if you do you can't be on the election night coverage" or something like that.
 
1053The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 12:56
I don't understand the relevence of 1038.

If that is the criteria around here then you had better get rid of half the posts.
 
1054The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 13:24
Olbermann returns tomorrow. This was nothing more than a disgusting ratings ploy most likely.
 
1055Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 13:27
I doubt it. I think that, for the media (left or right, it doesn't matter) the talking heads are the tails that wag the dogs.

This was about control, and (as usual) the celebrity won.
 
1056The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 13:48
It would be interesting to compare MSNBC's reaction had Olbermann given money to Palin instead.
 
1057Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 14:59
I was surprised to learn that MSNBC considers Olberman a newscaster. His show seems like commentary to me.
 
1058Frick
      ID: 21016718
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 15:21
If FOX was fair and balanced they (and other networks) should come clean and disclose is any of their anchors or hosts donates to either party.
 
1060Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 17:28
TLB 1053

If that is the criteria around here...

Huh? I was just trying to ask what the point of that post was.

a disgusting ratings ploy most likely

You never know, but I don't think that sounds very likely. I think David Carr more likely put his finger on it today...
Then again, the man who suspended him, Phil Griffin, president of MSNBC News, threw down a gauntlet before the election in an interview with The New York Times: “Show me an example of us fund-raising.” Conservative bloggers happily obliged and came up with numerous examples, including Representative Alan Grayson, Democrat of Florida, pitching for dollars on MSNBC.
...and that MSNBC brass is compensating for that public embarrasment of having their denial of any Democratic Party conflicts of interest so easily stomped.

It would be interesting to compare MSNBC's reaction had Olbermann given money to Palin instead.

I don't believe it's necessary to muse. Republican morning show host, former Rep. Joe Scarborough and Republican contributer, Pat Buchannon have both contributed to GOP campaigns and have never been suspended. I have no idea whether their contributions violated the policy that Olbermann got caught up in but I'd venture to guess that Griffin has no reason to be worried that anyone will accuse him of conservative bias and so doesn't really care what Republican campaigns their on-air talent might contribute to.

Also, given new info that has come out since, I'll retract my praise of MSNBC's handling of the matter in #1046.
 
1061Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 00:19


Oberman out at MSNBC
Ratings for Mr. Olbermann’s show grew, though he never approached Mr. O’Reilly’s level of popularity. But he helped expand the MSNBC brand by his frequent invitations to Rachel Maddow, who was eventually offered her own show on MSNBC.

Ms. Maddow became the 9 p.m. host following Mr. Olbermann and has built such a successful show that some NBC executives felt less concerned about losing Mr. Olbermann as the signature star of the network.

Wow, that was surprising. I can imagine what the conversation at the merger talks were like:

MSNBC: Hey, I know he is our top asset, but we all can't stand Keith. Would you be cool if we fired him?

Comcast: Sure, we have plenty of money, we never really liked him, either, so anti-rich guy... Just wait until after the merger is announced but before we take over, that way our stockholders won't wonder why we are paying top dollar for MSNBC, which sort of looks like the Cleveland Cavaliers now.
 
1062Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 10:12
Maddow is so much better than Oberman, who appealed to the "we're gonna stick it to them like they stuck it to us" progressive crowd.
 
1063bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 10:21
I believe Oberman to be gifted in his own way. He could be hilarious and passionate, but unfortunately he was never subtle.

Possibly he felt that what he was doing was no worse than O'reilly and Hannity. I would agree. But as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

Maybe he had delusions of grandeur, hoping that he would be perceived as a later day Edward R. Murrow.

One wonders what next. Maybe Fox will hire him to be a balancing act commentator. Just kidding.
 
1064Boldwin
      ID: 45032111
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 11:58
He is much closer to Ann Coulter's schtick. And she gets a real tickle from his show. It's how you guys really feel since you went partisan deranged in the last 5 years so I don 't see why any apologies are needed. Maybe he was getting in the way of the current censorship push. In which case he'll be back as soon as the 'Fairness Doctrine' passes.
 
1065Razor
      ID: 160302211
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 12:30
I can't wait until the government is able to fire Hannity and replace him with Olbermann.
 
1066Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 12:33
I don't know if you could get any more wrong, Baldwin. I read each of your sentences in post 1064 and none of them are remotely tethered to reality.
 
1067bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 14:03
Gotta chuckle at 1064. WHO is partisan deranged?
Who is even offering apologies?

Censorship push? Lemme get this straight. There is a censorship push under the current administration, so the guy who loses his job is the liberal Oberman. oo KAY
 
1068Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 14:31
Ed Schultz was moved into a PM slot in the shakeup. This has nothing to do with any civility push.
 
1069Boldwin
      ID: 17043236
      Sun, Jan 23, 2011, 07:43
A man's gotta eat. Nothing wrong with honest labor.

 
1070Tree
      ID: 24115767
      Sun, Jan 23, 2011, 11:20
i'm not sure if Fox News wants their janitor to be the smartest and most informed person on the payroll.
 
1071sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Jan 23, 2011, 13:31
prolly already is Tree.
 
1072Boldwin
      ID: 47542289
      Tue, Jun 28, 2011, 20:04
Just as the Lame-Stream-Media screwed up challenging Palin on Paul Revere, now George Stephanopoulos screws up on his history in an attempted Bachman gotcha.
"For example earlier this year you said that the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence worked tirelessly to end slavery. Now with respect Congresswoman, that's just not true."
Poor George, liberals shouldn't lean on their faulty memes while gloating from their presumptive superiority:
James Madison...spoke…favoring a bill Jefferson had proposed for the gradual abolition of slavery (it was rejected), and helped defeat a bill designed to outlaw the manumission of individual slaves. Of this effort a French observer wrote that Madison, "a young man (who)….astonishes…by his eloquence, his wisdom, and his genius, has had the humanity and courage (for such a proposition requires no small share of courage) to propose a general emancipation of the slaves."
---
Alexander Hamilton….never forgetting the slave markets of his St. Croix childhood, Hamilton became a prime mover in the early abolitionist group. He pressured the (New York) state legislature and helped to raise money to buy and free slaves. The society's founders…elected Hamilton chairman to draw up recommendations for "a line of conduct" for any "members who still possessed slaves." He also established a registry for manumitted slaves, listing their names and ages, "to detect attempts to deprive such manumitted persons of their liberty."

There's more with Hamilton, who also demanded (writing and signing a 1786 petition on the subject) the legislature ban the importation of slaves, calling slavery " a commerce so repugnant to humanity."

There is a difference between opposing something and being unable to change the practice in the day -- and doing nothing. But it is just flatly false to say, as Stephanopoulos says, that the Founding Fathers did not work to end slavery. The historical record, if one looks, is crystal clear. Madison did. Hamilton did. Jefferson did. They did not succeed, they were personally flawed, some owning slaves themselves. (Wasn't it George who wrote a book on a flawed president he knew called All Too Human?) But these Founding Fathers started the United States of America down the right historical path, personally "working" to end slavery.

There was a reason for the Three-Fifths Compromise in the Constitution. That reason: there were delegates to the Constitutional Convention (and they would be called Founding Fathers ) who supported abolition -- as well as those who opposed it. Hence -- the compromise. Which was not about declaring a black man three-fifths of a person as, for example, Al Gore and many liberals erroneously say. (Where was George then?) It was about reducing the power of slavery as an institution in the new United States Congress. If, as slave owners insisted, slaves were property -- then the obvious: they should not be counted as whole persons, which would increase the proportional power of the slave states in the House of Representatives, where representation was based on population size. The slave owners wanted it both ways -- to treat slaves as property but count them as persons, effectively increasing the slave owning power in Congress. The abolitionist delegates said no -- hence the compromise.
Of course George won't get the Dan Quayle treatment because the media is liberal.
 
1073sarge33rd
      ID: 55282819
      Tue, Jun 28, 2011, 20:28
No, he wont get the Quayle treatment, because he was correct. The FF did NOT work "tirelessly" to end slavery. A few opposed slavery, true. But by and large, there was no "tireless" effort to abolish it.
 
1074Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Jun 28, 2011, 21:00
We've got "Baldwin's Irrefutable Links" as a thread. Why not start "Boldwin's Revisionist History" too?
 
1075Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jun 29, 2011, 10:17
#1072: First of all, it should be noted that the question was raised based upon Bachmann's insistence that John Quincy Adams was a Founding Father (he was not) and using his story as the reason for her comment.

And in that interview Bachmann continues to insist that JQA was kinda, sorta, a Founding Father. Here's the relevant portion of the interview:

Stephanopoulos: You have been making a lot of progress, also getting a lot of scrutiny. I am not going to get too deep into the "flake" flap from Sunday. But as you make progress in this campaign everything you say is going to get more scrutiny. And the Pulitzer Prize winning website, Politifact, has found that you have the worst record of making false statements of any of the leading contenders. And I wondered if you wanted to take a chance to clear up some of your past statements. For example earlier this year you said that the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence worked tirelessly to end slavery. Now with respect Congresswoman, that’s just not true. Many of them including Jefferson and Washington were actually slave holders and slavery didn’t end until the Civil War.

Bachmann: Well you know what’s marvelous is that in this country and under our constitution, we have the ability when we recognize that something is wrong to change it. And that’s what we did in our country. We changed it. We no longer have slavery. That’s a good thing. And what our Constitution has done for our nation is to give us the basis of freedom unparalleled in the rest of the world.

Stephanopoulos: I agree with that…

Bachmann: That’s what people want...they realize our government is taking away our freedom.

Stephanopoulos: But that’s not what you said. You said that the Founding Fathers worked tirelessly to end slavery.

Bachmann: Well if you look at one of our Founding Fathers, John Quincy Adams, that’s absolutely true. He was a very young boy when he was with his father serving essentially as his father’s secretary. He tirelessly worked throughout his life to make sure that we did in fact one day eradicate slavery….

Stephanopoulos: He wasn’t one of the Founding Fathers – he was a president, he was a Secretary of State, he was a member of Congress, you’re right he did work to end slavery decades later. But so you are standing by this comment that the Founding Fathers worked tirelessly to end slavery?

Bachmann: Well, John Quincy Adams most certainly was a part of the Revolutionary War era. He was a young boy but he was actively involved.



To get the GOP nomination she doesn't have to be right--she just has to be forcefully wrong. She's the flavor of the week for a tea party desperate to continue their brand of Being a Dick Party.
 
1078Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 00:18
NYT finally admits that their policy is 'ends justifies the means'. They admit 24 years after the fact that they made up the charge that Robert Bork was extreme.
There was tremendous fear that if Bork were confirmed, he would swing the court to the conservatives and important liberal victories would be overturned — starting with Roe v. Wade.

But liberals couldn’t just come out and say that. “If this were carried out as an internal Senate debate,” Ann Lewis, the Democratic activist, would later acknowledge, “we would have deep and thoughtful discussions about the Constitution, and then we would lose.” So, instead, the Democrats sought to portray Bork as “a right-wing loony,”
Well that's convenient. We can expect them to unfairly use the word extreme to portray Obama's future opponent every third word, [in fact order another barrel of ink] but at least we can look forward to a grudging apology 24 years later.
 
1079sarge33rd
      ID: 359122312
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 00:20
gee, and you are now going to parse the use of terms, when you have for years been making up your own definitions for common terms/phrases?
 
1080bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 10:00
1078-

Doesn't the NYT article just report on the slanted liberal approach to Bork's nomination?

Is that truly evidence of a "liberal media bias", or is it fair reporting, pointing out a biased approach by liberal politicians that may have been unfair?

To me, this shows balance on the part of the Times.
 
1081Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 12:03
Yeah, the NYT will be as balanced as the reporter who asked Bachmann if she was a crackpot in an interview to see if he could crack her poise.
 
1082sarge33rd
      ID: 309182411
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 12:18
but Bachmann *IS* a crackpot. Therefore, asking her that, is no different from asking Romney about his Mormonism, since he *IS* Mormon.
 
1083bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 13:02
So let me get this straight. If Hannity had reported exactly the same on the liberal approach to Bork's nomination, it would have been an example of a balanced approach to exposing evil doings. But when the Times does it, it is an example of a bias on their part.
 
1084Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 15:27
biba, do you really believe that if we go back and comb thru the NYT during the original Borking, we wouldn't find the NYT Borking as hard as everyone else on the liberal plantation?
 
1085Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 15:32
That's kinda up to you, I think.
 
1086Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 16:08
What the NYT was printing during the Borking is kinda up to me?

We really do have incompatible definitions of reality.
 
1087Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 16:17
No, seeking out liberal media bias is up to you.

In the meantime, bib's comment carries the day. The NYT reporting on liberal tactics against Bork is hardly an indication of liberal bias on their part. If anything, it is the opposite.

One would never get the "fair and balanced" media to report critically on their side of an issue.
 
1088Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 16:56
Oh c'mon. If I had a nickel for everytime the NYT called anyone to the right of the Rockafeller family extreme I'd be rich as a Rockafeller.

This is not a case of an honest and balanced media source reporting on some activity that they weren't doing themselves.
 
1089Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 17:06
Believe it or not, proof can't only exist in your head.
 
1090Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 17:08
I really wish I could find the proof on Baldwin's blog ...
 
1091Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 17:10
Well something has to be up there or we'd hear the rocks bouncing around.....

Boldwin, you claim that if we dig through the NYT...blah blah blah.... Well you go dig through the NYT. You can't make claims and then not back them up. That's what we have Fox News for.
 
1092Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 18:21
I think that what is incompatible in todays exchange is the apparent base misconception or dishonest assertion that an op-Ed column represents the editorial standpoint of a news organization.

Pushing that meme to the extent of applying it as a given upon which further commentary is based is either rather surprising ignorance from the source or less surprising but deliberate dishonest troll behavior intended to either start an argument or dupe others into believing such a falsehood.
 
1093Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 21:28
Explain the science of knowing when an editorial is an editorial.
 
1094sarge33rd
      ID: 309182411
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 22:08
well, one could apply critical thinking skills, but that requires intellectual honesty.
 
1095Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 22:50
I think the publication in question applies the traditional standard.
 
1096Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Mon, Oct 24, 2011, 23:03
Or you could actually engage in the marketplace of ideas without looking for an excuse to close your mind.

It's not enuff that you limit me to quoting my most hated media enemy and you won't engage with anything else hardly...now I gotta quote from only the right parts of the NYT.

How weak are you?
 
1097sarge33rd
      ID: 309182411
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 00:29
Or you could actually engage in the marketplace of ideas without looking for an excuse to close your mind.

Seriously B, you should try that sometime.
 
1098Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 01:24
1096 is a troll post. Argumentative, hyper-defensive, dishonest, aggressively critical, completely useless.
 
1099sarge33rd
      ID: 309182411
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 01:33
and FTR, I did not mean my 1097 facetiously. I sincerely mean that B should try at least once, taking his own advice there.
 
1100Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 05:04
Sarge, you've never met anyone in your life less afraid to engage with the marketplace of ideas than I am.

I wish I had enuff respect left for this 'marketplace' to suspect you guys were making a sly comment about the NYT editorial admitting to borking, by borking me. But you're just not that self-aware are you.
 
1101Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 12:01
you've never met anyone in your life less afraid to engage with the marketplace of ideas than I am.

omg. it's posts like this that make me think Baldwin is just a "character" invented by SZ or James K Polk or someone in a Stephen Colbert kind of way. it's just too over the top to be serious...

But you're just not that self-aware are you.

...especially when a self-described "Christian" continues to insult and demean and belittle.

it's got to be one, big, long-running joke/work.

 
1102Mith
      ID: 46121210
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 12:52
a sly comment about the NYT editorial admitting to borking

It's not an editorial so there is no sly comment to be made about it. Though I could think of a few to make about the non-self-aware troll who repeatedly demands that it is an editorial.

Whether it was rather surprising ignorance initially or not, we've now stomped into option B, regardless.
 
1103sarge33rd
      ID: 299342518
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 19:38
after reading 1100, I will respond, just as soon as I pick my jaw up off the floor and put my eyes back inside my skull.

I think it would be am easier line to buy, if Fox said Palin came out and endorsed Obama for the Presidency, than to accept B's statement as factually accurate.
 
1105Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Dec 25, 2011, 22:45


I know this is old news now but I didn't see it until today.

I'd have put it in the Real Herman Cain thread but since he's out of the race I think the much bigger story than the most recent absurd thing Herman Cain said is Walters' reaction.

I've never seen one of her 10 Most Interesting People of the year specials and I guess the subjective nature of such a show makes it a kind of opinion event from the onset. But a seasoned journalist and interviewer like her knows better and is well-prepared to keep an even temperment. Terribly unprofessional.
 
1106Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Dec 26, 2011, 01:29
knows better

Knows better than what? To show an honest reaction to an obviously vainglorious answer?
 
1107Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Dec 26, 2011, 11:29
Thats correct.

Maybe I'm wrong about Walters and through her career she's been more of an Oprah Winfrey type celebrity interviewer than a disciplined journalist.

But if not, a good journalist doesn't react that way, even if it was honest. And I dont doubt it was, I reacted exactly the same as she did when I was told of the exchange.

In my opinion, anything more than a raised eyebrow and brief pause is pretty unprofessional. The right way to do it is to cooly ask the obvious follow-ups in a hard interview or just move on if it's a fluff thing. A disciplined journalist might have paused with a smile and evenly and respectful as possible suggested that many on both sides of the aisle might be taken aback by that answer.
 
1108Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Dec 26, 2011, 11:43
Well, I think you are right about Walters.

I don't believe that journalists need divorce themselves from emotion in order to be "professional."
 
1109Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Dec 26, 2011, 12:52
In my opinion, when an interviewer betrays her opinion about the subject she's no longer engaged in objective journalism.

And like I said, a show based on the interviewer's opinion of who qualifies as the 10 most interesting people of the year already breaks that barrier from the onset.

But it's still wrong to so openly insult your guest as to gasp in shock at him. I have no doubt that someone with Walters' experience fully possesses the discipline to check her emotions in that exchange and be ready with a smart and respectful response, even to such an absurd answer to her question.

Also i have no reason to believe she would have reacted any different if it were Anthony Weiner boasting devotion to his wife in answering a different question so maybe a thread about liberal bias wasn't the best place to bring this up.
 
1110Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Dec 26, 2011, 23:47
John Stewart weighs in on this about 2 minutes in:

 
1111Boldwin
      ID: 321121173
      Tue, Dec 27, 2011, 03:22
Just return the drone and we can put this embarrassing incident behind us!

Look at all I've done for the califate. Why not show some appreciation?
 
1112Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 27, 2011, 10:26
If true, he wouldn't have been spying in the first place.
 
1113Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Dec 27, 2011, 10:29
The Israelis, on the other hand, continue to have those balls on the Jonathan Pollard issue.
 
1114Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 18:08
Another reason the “nobodies” have flourished, even in the face of the Establishment’s total opposition, is that the “somebodies” have lost the trust of the vast majority of the huge American middle class. The somebodies, the mainstream media, long ago stopped being mere gatherers and reporters of events. First they became analysts and opinion-givers, showing the poor benighted stupid Americans how to think. Finally by 2007 the mainstream media just stopped pretending and became part of the Obama Campaign. And now the media has finally joined the Obama Administration as the Ministry of Propaganda. It’s a wonder the very rocks don’t cry out at the sheer hypocrisy and cynicism of the media.

American citizens are tired of the lies of the Somebodies. We don’t mind a point of view, but we insist you admit you have one, instead of keeping up the pretense of objectivity. And don’t think we won’t catch a lie or a half-truth. We have gone over to the “nobodies” in such droves because we can trust them to cover stories the MSM won’t; to make clear what perspective they have; and to not mislead us.

What the Somebodies won’t or can’t realize is that the nobodies now have much more power, and a larger audience among actual voters than the media. - Just a nobody
And another reason you know one of the regular attempts and trial balloons designed to censor the internet will be successful one of these days.
 
1115sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 20:18
"...the huge American middle class..."

What planet has thius author been viositing over the past 10 years? The middle class, is all but depopulated, as the wealth has been redistributed via free market capitalism run amuck, into the hands of those who already had much. It is the ranks of the poor, which has swollen with bodies.
 
1116Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 06:30
"Media Matters are not liberals. They are Stalinist thugs for the most part and Obama needs to disavow them. I will not vote for anyone associated with them" - Alan Dershowitz
 
1117Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 21:51
WTF?



CNN Sunday Morning leads into a report about Sarah Palin at Chick Fil A with the song, "Stupid Girls" by Pink.

"The music selection was a poor choice and was not intended to be linked to any news story," a CNN spokesperson told The Hollywood Reporter. "We regret any perception that they were planned together."
Right, and Dane Cook was sorry and didn't mean to offend anyone when he said that anyone would want to kill themselves 25 min into the Batman movie anyway.
 
1118Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 04:34
You really have to ask yourself, who at Chick-Fil-A decided to sign up with the Muppets? Perhaps hiring a crew who spends all day with someone's hand up their butt, was a bit too inclusive.

Chick-Fil-A really needs to be more discriminating in their bric-a-brack selections.
 
1119Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 04:49
They needed to make the replacements toy squirtguns. Woulda made the muppeteers stroke out.
 
1120Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 05:13
A Colorado man told Newsmax that when wildfires forced him and his neighbors to leave their homes, Chick-fil-A fed the evacuees that night, adding “please let people know what kind of company Chick-fil-A is.”
 
1121Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 09:10
You really have to ask yourself, who at Chick-Fil-A decided to sign up with the Muppets? Perhaps hiring a crew who spends all day with someone's hand up their butt, was a bit too inclusive.

because, of course, no one who spends time preparing chickens for food has their hands up the chicken's butt.

good lord.
 
1122sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 12:22
most ridiculous statement ever made on TV

“In 1968, France was a dangerous place to be for a 21-year-old American,” Borger says, “but Mitt Romney was right in the middle of it.”

Are they SERIOUS??????? OK, thats the end of any claims of liberal CNN hand-holding Dems while bashing Republicans. Thats the softest, softball EVER in the history of "journalism".
 
1123Boldwin
      ID: 2985279
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 12:29
Yeah, 1968 France loved them some USA.
 
1125biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 12:37
Yeah, being a draft dodger is some daaaangerous business.

Knocking on doors and being told " Nique ta mere!" is pretty close to being shot in the spine by the Vietcong.

The confusion about which "mere" they are referring to among some Mormon proselytizers must have caused deadly head-scratching.
 
1126sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 12:42
good gawd B..just a LITTLE honesty form you? Once?

1968...Saigon was a dangerous lace for a 21 yr old American to be. And Mitt Romney was nowhere in sight.

1968 Viet Nam was a dangerous place for a 21 yr old American to be. And Mitt Romney was on vacation in France.

Give me a break B.
 
1127Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 13:20
Romney was in France from 1966 through the end of 1968, and the last half year the entire country was rocked by wildcat strikes and protests against the US. I'm not aware of any specific difficulties Romney had being there, but facing hostile people on a mission is exactly what he went there to do.

It certainly wasn't any more dangerous than Vietnam. But it wasn't a country picnic either.
 
1128sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 13:50
It certainly wasn't any more dangerous than Vietnam.

Seriously PD? It was nowhere CLOSE, not in the same ballpark, as the danger in Vet Nam in 1968. That year, was the year of the most US casualties throughout the entire "conflict". To even hint the levels of danger were approximate, is to insult every combat veteran who has ever been, or will be.
 
1129Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 13:56
True, sarge, but Mitt Romney was hardly on vacation in France. To imply such is to insult every missionary who ever has, or ever will be sent on the rather thankless task of converting the masses to Mormonism.
 
1130sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:00
Missionary work in France, or Germany, or Italy; I would compare to missionary work in the US. A comparative walk in the park.

Now, missionary work in South America, Central America, Africa, India, SE Asia,...different story.
 
1131Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:03
sarge: It is probably important to note that the original piece wasn't making that comparison. It is undoubtedly true that being an American in France in 1968 had an element of danger, particularly when doing conversion work.

The comparison you seem intent on making is also true but wasn't a part of the piece--you seem very focused on taking them to task for a comparison they didn't make.
 
1132sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:06
No PD..I am bent on taking you to task, for a comparison you did make, when you said:

It certainly wasn't any more dangerous than Vietnam.

The two degrees of danger, are not in any way comparable. The statement made by CNN;

“In 1968, France was a dangerous place to be for a 21-year-old American,” Borger says, “but Mitt Romney was right in the middle of it.”

is an absurdity.
 
1133Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:23
Well, I think you might be overlooking the nature of the May 1968 countrywide strike. But there you go.
 
1134sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:26
No, I am putting it all in context. Romney protested in favor of Vietnam, the sought 4 student deferments. Got a missionary deferment, then his number was too high for the remaining time.

Having dodged what he protested for, then to claim that he faced any degree of mortal danger and was "in the middle of it", is patently absurd.
 
1135Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:28
Is that what was said--"mortal danger?" I think the piece was actually much milder.
 
1136Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:35
I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who are former Mormon missionaries. The most successful have been in South American countries like Brazil, Chile and Peru; Polynesian islands of Samoa and Tonga; and several dirt poor African nations.

Their success is tied to the Church's targeting poverty-stricken areas, and helping with food, clothing and shelter, which opens the door to conversion. Some of the worst conversion rates are here in the US and more affluent parts of the world like Western Europe. Because Mormon missionaries are so easy to identify, they often become targets of harrassment in areas where their door to door activities are more active, which would be areas where they are less involved with providing their converts and would-be converts basic staples.

Because of my proximity to the MTC(Missionary Training Center) in Provo, my local paper keeps my community well-informed of robberies, beatings and murders of missionaries around the globe. I have no idea if the percentage of Mormon missionaries being the subjects of crime is higher than missionaries of other faiths, and in most cases it's impossible to know if they're even the subjects of crime, since the highest number of incidents are missionaries being hit by cars while riding their bicycles.
Bottom line is that it's hardly a walk in the park being a Mormon missionary regardless of where you're assigned.
 
1137sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 14:38
Agreed PV. Which is why I said A comparative walk in the park.

Paved roads, running water, indoor plumbing, local stores and cafeterias, museums etc to visit/see, local infrastructure (police, fire, medical) all readily available.

Yeah, thats a damn tough assignment.
 
1138DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 15:24
"Is that what was said--"mortal danger?""

Col. Jessup: "Is there any other kind?"
 
1139Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Sep 07, 2012, 16:02
There's nothing wrong with the italicized sentence in 1122.

The argument seems to be that a documentary (it wasn't a news report) is not allowed to refer any situation faced by a young man not at war in 1968 as dangerous - and that if that young man is now a political candidate, that the documentary is coddling him.

No. Believe it or not the Earth did have other "dangerous" places for people to find themselves "in the middle of" in 1968 - besides Southeast Asia.
 
1140Boldwin
      ID: 25818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 19:58
Newsflash: Blank spot in paper
Less than two weeks ago, Schweitzer [the governor of Dem Montana - B] delivered the keynote address at the Ohio Democratic Party’s annual dinner.

“All over Montana, you can walk into a bar, a café or even a school or a courthouse and just listen for a while as people talk to each other,” Schweitzer explained, shortly after noting 93 percent of his state’s population is classified as Caucasian. “And you will hear somebody, before very long, say something outrageously racist about the people who’ve lived in Montana for 10,000 years.”

The governor delivered the program to sway the minds and hearts of Treasure State youngsters. “So, I decided, I can’t turn the heart of a 45-year-old redneck,” Schweitzer said.

---

In the comments: I immediately checked the Tribune for a fuller report. Not a peep in the Great Falls paper. Nothing. Its like this outrageous speech never happened. We can’t really blame the average Montanan for not knowing what an idiot the governor is. The media simply covers up for him.
You're a bunch of ignorant racist rednecks. And I'm your governor.
 
1141Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:22
Just so I'm clear, you're calling the Gannett-owned Great Falls Tribune in Montana a biased liberal media outlet?
 
1142Boldwin
      ID: 25818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:27
Either that or they are so incompetent that they don't cover their governor speaking on the national stage.
 
1143Boldwin
      ID: 25818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:32
They obviously have enuff liberals in Montana to elect a liberal governor. And I can guess where the infestation gets thickest. Try the media for starters.
 
1144sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:40
The Oho Democratic Party Annual Dinner, is a national stage?
 
1145Perm Dude
      ID: 577543120
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:41
The Ohio Dem dinner is a "national stage?"

 
1146Boldwin
      ID: 25818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:47
Ohio is like swing state ground zero. Yes, I don't doubt for a minute the paper was well aware of what he said there.
 
1147Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:54
I guess we go with whatever standard delivers the desired outcome, be it accurate information to consider or an echo of what we already think we know.

I know that I don't know a thing about the media in Montana and that there could be a hundred reasons for why a paper in what would be a bona-fide tertiary media market if it were a lot bigger might not cover a speech the governor gave 1200 miles away.

I also know that I don't know a thing about the culture in Montana but since you believe the comments section under a conservative blog about is a place that provides information reliable enough to repost under your own name, lets see what else those same folks in your echo chamber have to say, shall we?
- He hates the very people he represents. He's a traitor to his people and his nation.

- If European Americans are smart, we will keep these anti-white leftist traitors OUT of office. We need a true Conservative Third Party as many of the Republican representation are only interested in pandering to blacks and hispanics, and ignoring their true voting base. There is a new political party I recently found out about called American Third Position, and they seem promising enough. They may be something to look into as a possible alternative to the Liberal Republicans and the Far-Left Democrats... Link to American 3rd Party website (yes, it's exactly what you think it is).

- This country was created by Whites for Whites. The Founding Fathers were "racists" - just like the Founders of any Nation. Do you stuggle and risk you life for other peoples or for your own? Only stupid dumbed down Whites think being a racist is bad or uniquely White.

- And. the "native" Indians have Asian blood, so they must of displaced someone too. I bet this A-hole governor supports Israel, and wouldn't say jack shit about their polices.

- Long ago I lived in MT, now across its border. Its sad you've got this govnr. Flat-out remove him! Same with Kenya-born Obama in the ex-White House.

- Yet, any White person who stands up for White interests is a truly dangerous white power fanatic and probably anaziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.
Every other racial group is entitled to a group defense except for White people. Not only denied a group defense but must put up with the kind of verbal and policy abuse this governor and other anti-Whites routinely subject them to.

- I would say a big resounding YES that this scumbag is somewhat hostle toward the people that make his state so great in the first place. I'll give you a hint, it isn't the "diversities". People relocate to Montana to GET AWAY FROM the "diversities" and the crime and degeneracy they bring.
There were only 33 comments, and a good number of the ones I didn't post were Montanans who agreed with the governor that there is a racism problem in the state, including one who heralded him for telling an uncomfortable truth.
 
1148Perm Dude
      ID: 577543120
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 20:58
Ohio is like swing state ground zero.

So why is this July speech making its way into the conservative talking points generating machine now?
 
1149Boldwin
      ID: 25818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 21:13
It is just projection that has democrats believing everything from the other side is just talking points and astroturf.
 
1150Perm Dude
      ID: 577543120
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 21:21
So you believe that the "liberal" MT paper should be taken to task for not immediately reporting on a speech you didn't get around to noticing, and posting, until it became a conservative meme more than six weeks after the speech?

It is hard to take cynical partisan sniping as serious constructive criticism worthy of notice.
 
1151Boldwin
      ID: 25818119
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 21:24
It would be hard taking a would-be governor seriously who called his constituents ignorant racist rednecks...

...if he wasn't actually governor.
 
1152Perm Dude
      ID: 577543120
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 21:31
That is up to the citizens of Montana, surely. My point has to do with your actions: Calling the newspaper to task for not covering an explosive story you didn't notice yourself until it came up a month-and-a-half after the fact in the conservative blogosphere.
 
1153DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 21:36
Summary of this "story":

DRUDGESIREN.GIF

Racist rednecks object on blog to being called racist rednecks. Film at 11.

DRUDGESIREN.GIF
 
1154Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 21:46
Boldwin:

1. I certainly dont claim to know (as usual I don't think blog comments are a reliable measure of what people generally think) but is it possible at all that there is an anti-Native American racism problem in Montana?

2. If a Chris Christie made similar comments about the black community in PA (that there are people among them who are openly racist) would he be hard for you to take seriously? I don't care what you think liberals would say about it. I'm asking you to reconcile your thoughts here on the MT governor with what you'd say if Christie said that.
 
1155Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 21:57
NJ, whatever.
 
1156Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 22:41
MITH

Yes, in that case I would consider Christie as unfit a representative of his constituents as Obama is an unfit representative of the 'clingers'.
 
1157Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 23:50
Boldwin I don't think you've been shy about noting the presence of racists among minorities.

How is this different from bending to what you call 'the PC police'?

It sounds like you're saying politicians should pretend there is no racism and never speak of it. Or is it that they can generally acknowledge it but should never hint at where it comes from?

I'm really not sure that I understand the issue. What if Corey Booker said the same about the black community in his city?


On the issue raised about the media, I think the most likely reason the Great Falls Tribune didn't cover Schweitzer's speech in Ohio is that they are a relatively small outfit in the 3rd biggest city in the 3rd least populous state with a daily circulation under 35,000 papers that doesn't have the staff or the resources to send a reporter with the governor every time he goes out of state.

I think it's also pretty obvious (to answer PD and Sarge) that the Ohio Democratic Party's Annual Dinner and Convention is a relatively podunk affair. Consider that the most prominent out-of-state Dem who showed up (and also their keynote speaker) was Brian Schweitzer.

Trust me when I say that in broadcast news there wasn't any pursuit of it.

I have to wonder how much it was even covered in Ohio. I have no idea if there is a New York Democratic Party Convention and Dinner, I don't think I've ever heard of one. Is that something they have in Ohio but not here?

Do you guys get extensive coverage of state party convention/dinners in your local media?
 
1158Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:04
I'm really not sure that I understand the issue. - MITH

The issue is that the Montana media surely knows how their governor speaks about Montana when he is out of town and they cover for him.

The issue also is that Montana has a right to know and respond in kind.
 
1159Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:10
T
Montanans also have a right to know the right puts words in their governor's mouth.

You're a bunch of ignorant racist rednecks.

Your words, not his.

 
1160Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:28
That's a totally fair summation and you full well know it.
 
1161Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:37
Boldwin I really think you overestimate the reach and scope of the media in Great Falls and in the state of Montana.

I recall a conversation I had with someone at the assignment desk at a local network TV affiliate in Missoula a few years ago. The assignment editor and assistant news director and morning anchor were all the same person.

What kind of coverage do you think a daily circulation under 35,000 buys?
 
1162Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 01:00
It's the governor. We're not talking about dogcatcher. You really think this just comes out of the blue that he freely and publicly calls his constituents ignorant racist rednecks? Do they never interview him? Do they have close sources?

Just how Podunck is Montana anyway? And my experience living in Chicago and tiny Peru is that the smaller the community, the better stories get around.
 
1163Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 01:45
Peru is a part of and served by one of the largest primary media markets in the country, even if it is on the outskirts. You might also get served by nearby secondary market in Davenport and large tertiary markets in Peoria and Rockford, as Peru is within 100 miles of all of those cities. And even if you never see a TV station or a newspaper from any of those cities in Peru, the Chicago market is supported by them in print and on TV.

The most recent data I have available at home is from 2001 (old copy of a quarterly media guide). At the time, Great Falls was the 187th largest media market (out of 210) serving 60,720 households.

Great Falls is maybe 70 miles from Helena (rank 207th) and another 50 miles after that is Butte (190th). Billings (169th) and Missoula (170th) are each more than 250 sparsely populated miles away.

Chicago was the 3rd largest market, serving 3.25 million households, more than 50 times the size of the Great Falls media market.

That's the difference between the media coverage you get in Peru vs what you get in Great Falls.

If you're curious, Davenport, Peoria and Rockford were ranked 90th, 112th and 135th, respectively. Rockford was near tripled the size of Great Falls and Davenport is 6 times the size.
 
1164Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 02:02
Sometimes I'm kind of nerdy.
 
1165Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 02:05
Do you download Fantasy Focus?
 
1166Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 02:08
No, is it popular among the type that collects outdated media industry reference tomes?
 
1167Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 02:24
No, It's a podcast one of whose experts you kinda introduced me to in a round about way.

Funny as hell.
 
1168Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 02:25
And you clearly are not nerdy enuff.
 
1169Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 02:29
Remember that keeper league that needed a replacement manager years ago and you got me?
 
1170Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 03:04
No, I'm definitely not nerdy enough to have tried to squeeze in a fantasy baseball commitment during that trying time.

Played for the first time since then this year.
 
1171Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 03:12
And you mean Nando. I'm glad things worked out for him after Talented Mr Roto was bought. Nice guy.
 
1172Boldwin
      ID: 46859128
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 10:13
Now there is a story I'd like you to flesh out. Here or in email.
 
1173Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 14:59
There's not much to it. He and I were coworkers. He wrote for TMR on the side and had co-written a book about fantasy baseball. He joined that keeper baseball league either the same year or the year before you joined, in its last season.

FTR that was 1 of maybe 10 or 12 leagues Nando was in that year. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't one of his primary ones.

Anyway, shortly after we both left that job, TMR was bought by ESPN and they apparently decided to keep him around.
 
1174sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Sep 16, 2012, 20:14

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

If that is in fact accurate, THAT then, is the crux of the nations problems.
 
1175Boldwin
      ID: 368252710
      Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 11:25
"According to [George - B] Will, 72 percent of all GOP primary voters in that state [South Carolina - B] “get all, not most, all of their news from Fox News."

You may not think it's obvious that the MSM is hopelessly biased, but republicans are convinced.

 
1176DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 11:28
They're also convinced about a lot of other things that are demonstrably objectively wrong, too.

Also, "MSM is biased!" and "so we go look at Fox News instead" is pretty much the dictionary definition of cognitive dissonance.
 
1177Boldwin
      ID: 428282914
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 17:26
 
1178Boldwin
      ID: 38930212
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 13:30
If we had a watchdog media there would be firestorms raging non-stop.
 
1179Boldwin
      ID: 1194146
      Thu, Oct 04, 2012, 08:16
Most entertaining Chris Matthews freakout ever
 
1180Boldwin
      ID: 40937423
      Fri, Oct 05, 2012, 19:21
Penultimate lipstick on a pig

Trust me, censors, she wants this one left up there.
 
1181Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 01:50
This Sunday on "Meet the Press," Todd was all pained over *gasp* Americans' growing suspicion that a government institution would release counter-intuitive unemployment numbers beneficial to the president just 30 days out from an election.

According to the Huffington Post, at times Todd was so upset, his voice "grew shaky":
Todd interrupted. "This is really making me crazy," he said. "The Federal Reserve gets questioned now for politics these days, the Supreme Court, John Roberts. We have corroded."

Todd lowered his voice, which grew shaky. "What we're doing, we're corroding trust in our government...
Just the fact that Todd is an elite member of the very profession that should be most skeptical of governmental institutions, but instead gets "shaky" over the fact that others are skeptical of it, is highly revealing.
---
But what it all boils down to is that Todd is a Palace Guard for The State.
 
1182Biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 09:45
Who's Todd?

Brietbart will rot your brain.
 
1183Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 10:49
Here's an idea. Try to make a point about liberal media bias by posting an article from a source that is twice as biased, has a history of blatant dishonesty, and presents a virtual unknown(Chuck Todd) as an elite member of the media, confirming that the word "elite" has absolutely no real meaning in the modern blogosphere.

Examples of un-biased "journalism" from this Breitbart article:

>someone as dishonest as a Chuck Todd

>He never stops lying

>Todd is also too stupid to understand

>It's just a fact that today our corrupt media


Our corrupt media. When your starting point is that the corrupt media is a "fact," and don't include yourself, it confirms that the word "fact" no longer has real meaning.
 
1184Boldwin
      ID: 361012125
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 10:28
Oddly it turns out that across the board, liberals and conservatives alike, political junkies take in a surprisingly balanced mix of sources and are less cocooned and insulated by echo chamber effect than previously assumed.

To summarize, most individuals do not refuse to hear the other side. In fact, most people consume predominately non-partisan local TV newscasts, while tuning out news from partisan sources altogether. Of those who do turn to partisan sources, most Republicans and Democrats have virtually indistinguishable news diets. Contrary to recent claims, there is little evidence that the electorate is self-sorting into “ideologically like-minded information cocoons” at the level being described by scholars and political commentators. - The Monkey Cage [refencing work by Michael LaCour, a Ph.D. candidate in political science at UCLA]
I would quarrel in that I don't really see a news source that is flat out neutral. On the otherhand I spend a lot of time listening to the Dem enemies of mankind just to keep track of them and figure out how thay can possibly think like that, and I am pleased that I am not alone in double-dipping.

---

Also see 'trajectory' for evidence of 'permanent realignment'

 
1185biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 10:42
As to the first, talking to my sister (far, far left) yesterday sounded exactly like talking to you regarding media bias. She assumes the networks are bought and paid for by the corporate right.

As to the second, I think you are right. Extreme jerrymandering has been successful in usurping the will of the people.
 
1186Boldwin
      ID: 361012125
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 10:55
1) Corporations have a liberal bias on the whole. Big government acts as a barrier to new competition and they are filled with college indoctrinated liberals.

2) The graph is the national popular vote. It is impossible to see gerrymendering in that. It wouldn't matter how you slice it. It's the total popular vote.
 
1187DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 11:00
"1) Corporations have a liberal bias on the whole. "

 
1188Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 11:23
[1186](2) The x-axis is the national popular vote. But not the y-axis. Without gerrymandering, the 2012 data point would presumably be higher up the y-axis.

 
1189biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 11:30
Exactly.
 
1190Boldwin
      ID: 361012125
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:07
Gerrymandering swings both ways, so I really don't see how that is true. If you had state by state graphs and knew which party controlled the redrawn districts maybe.
 
1191Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 14:57
Gerrymandering swings to the party who controls the state legislatures. After the 2010 election (when the census data was to be used to redraw districts as needed), the GOP won more state legislatures than at any point since 1928.

After 2010 28 state legislatures were controlled outright by Republicans. In addition 3 other states had Democratic legislatures but GOP governors.

The GOP went to town on those lines.
 
1192sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 14:59
TP influence, peaked at the precise time, to do them the most long term good. A year later, or potentially earlier, and the count may well be very, very different.
 
1193biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 15:01
long term ill, imho.
 
1194sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 15:05
ill for the rest of us, I agree.
 
1195sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 11:57
ooops

According to This Denver TV Station, Paula Broadwell Wrote a Book Called All Up In My Snatch

Via the folks at AmericaBlog: When Denver's ABC affiliate put together a piece on the ever-devolving Petraeus affair yesterday, the station needed an image of the cover of Paula Broadwell's Petraeus bio All In to show its viewers. So it naturally went to the internet, which was a big mistake.

The reporter thought he was just grabbing an image of the cover of Broadwell's book, but he actually grabbed one that had been doctored by some hilarious internet wag to read All Up In My Snatch (lol get it?). And then he put it on TV, next to an image of Broadwell.

The station's news director told us: "Yes it happened. It was a mistake."


Here's video of the segment.
 
1196Boldwin
      ID: 291029284
      Wed, Nov 28, 2012, 08:32
Rush Limbaugh points out that CNN [Clinton News Network] has reached a twenty year low in ratings and will probably slide into the clownish role of trying to 'out-left' MSNBC.

They are courting as savior Jeff Zucker:
Zucker is also an unrepentant liberal; he’d be perhaps the least objective news overseer in the nation. He was offered a slot in the prospective Gore administration in 2000, an offer he seriously considered. He then proceeded to head up NBC’s coverage of the Gore-Bush election. Jack Welch, head of NBCUniversal’s then-parent company, GE, suggested that Zucker had turned the Today show into Pravda. As head of NBCUniversal, he mandated that almost every prime-time show include green themes. He was personally a donor to the Obama 2008 campaign. – Kathy Shaidle
---
As viewers of NBC’s Sunday Night Football witnessed in 2007, Zucker brings new meaning to the phrase “Television blackout.” If he’s hired, I wonder which CNN show will turn their lights off first in the name of Gaia? - Ed Driscoll
 
1197Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 23:31
Laura Ingraham's claim of liberal media bias backfires
 
1198sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 13:44
Intelligence Institute Study shows Fox News viewers have an IQ that is 20 points lower than the U.S. National average.

The results of a 4 year study show that Americans who obtain their news from Fox News channel have an average IQ of 80, which represents a 20 point deficit when compared to the U.S. national average of 100. IQ, or intelligence quotient, is the international standard of assessing intelligence.

Researchers at The Intelligence Institute, a conservative non-profit group, tested 5,000 people using a series of tests that measure everything from cognitive aptitude to common sense and found that people who identified themselves as Fox News viewers and 'conservative' had, on average, significantly lower intelligent quotients. Fox Viewers represented 2,650 members of the test group.


No REAL liberal bias. Just that FOX said there is, and their viewers are too stupid to know it is FOX (OK, and MSNBC), who are blatantly biased.
 
1199boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 15:07
You do realize that article is not real?
 
1200sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 15:20
you say that, based on what? The original study, said FOX viewers are the most misinformed, but was limited to respondents form NJ. The study was "updated", and done nationally. (Linked in the article and reported by Huffington)
 
1201biliruben
      ID: 41431323
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 15:38
That's a massive difference. I can't find any evidence that such a study is nonsense, but it doesn't really pass the sniff test. Seems like an April fools joke.

I was about to jokingly add "The study did not conclude if Fox News contributed to lowering IQ or if it attracts less intelligent humans.", when I found they had already put in the article.

I seriously doubt it's true. Folks with an IQ of 69 have trouble using the remote. 80 is really low.
 
1202sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 15:41
Mental Retardation (from what I found) is largely defined as an IQ of 70-75 at MOST, coupled with deficiencies in at least 2 cognitive areas. (doesnt DQ, many I know of who are in fact FOX viewers)
 
1203Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 15:48
Respondents were asked 4 of the eight following questions:
Questions: (all but the first two were open-ended)
• To the best of your knowledge, have the opposition groups protesting in Egypt been successful in removing Hosni Mubarak?
• How about the opposition groups in Syria? Have they been successful in removing Bashar al-Assad?
• Some countries in Europe are deeply in debt, and have had to be bailed out by other countries. To the best of your knowledge, which country has had to spend the most money to bail out European countries?
• There have been increasing talks about economic sanctions against Iran. What are these sanctions supposed to do?
• Which party has the most seats in the House of Representatives right now?
• In December, House Republicans agreed to a short-term extension of a payroll tax cut, but only if President Obama agreed to do what?
• It took a long time to get the final results of the Iowa caucuses for Republican candidates. In the end, who was declared the winner?
• How about the New Hampshire Primary? Which Republican won that race?
• According to official figures, about what percentage of Americans are currently unemployed?
I don't know about anyone else but I'd likely get the last two wrong. I don't remember offhand which Republicans won which primaries even though I followed the early primaries very closely.
 
1204sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 15:49
sorry...last got cut short...

From what I have experienced (granted it is anecdotal), it would be ENTIRELY plausible, to find that in fact many, many, MANY FOX adherents ARE mentally challenged. The cognitive disconnect required to buy into much of what FOX says, would almost seem to require it.(Of course, the same could possibly be said of MSNBC. I dont watch it so...I cant say.I do from time to time watch FOX, just to know what absurdities they are trying to pass off this time.)
 
1205Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 15:53
I watch FNC more than any other TV news.


I think #1204 is pretty foolish. In fact if I didn't know better...
 
1206sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 16:00
and more and more I find your own posts MITH, to be sanctimonious. So what?
 
1207Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 16:09
I think my level of sanctimony is probably cyclical.

Though I don't think it usually approaches the level of explaining how I could totally get on board with the idea that MANY FOX adherents ARE mentally challenged.
 
1208boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 16:17
I can not believe this article is being passed off as news, as its totally made up. I like it links to real story to make it seem real.
 
1209sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 16:41
many, is a fairly benign term. Much less restricted in use than things like "most of" or similar. Many, simply infers a large number, is more than some. Given that FOX is nr1 cable news nationally, I dont find it at all difficult to believe that MANY of its viewers are challenged.
 
1210sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Dec 07, 2012, 16:47
YAHOO does appear the only news source running with this......
 
1211Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Mon, Jan 14, 2013, 16:18
Piers Morgan was held up recently by this forum's least useful poster as a figure of such high stature that besting him in a debate on a particular topic is so epic an accomplishment as to single-handedly usher the final defeat of the liberal position on that issue.

I didn't see the debate and so do not know anything about the depth of the topic discussed, much less who won.

In fact, aside from occasional teases and promos I've caught while watching other shows, I've never seen Piers Morgan on TV.

So on the topic of Piers Morgan's relevance, I found this Andrew Sullivan post about his fellow Brit interesting.

The Dumb, Disgusting Desperation Of Piers Morgan
 
1212sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Mon, Jan 14, 2013, 16:39
IMHO, 2 words rather thoroughly describe Morgan....pompous ass.
 
1213Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Jan 14, 2013, 16:42
He also have a light regard for the law. His role in the phone hacking scandal is still to be determines, if I recall correctly.

Nevertheless, in an "interview" between Morgan and a gun nut desperate to prove his manhood, I'll take Morgan every time.
 
1214sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Mon, Jan 14, 2013, 16:57
Well to be fair, Morgan didnt do much nor did he HAVE to. Just let Jones ramble on and work himself into a lunatic ramble, complete with mouth foam. It was probably, Morgan's finest hour on CNN.
 
1215Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 08:44
Re: 1213

PD, are you ok? I'm not one to pick on anyone for grammar mistakes, but your first sentence in 1213 seems very odd for you.

I think the best summation of Piers Morgan was from a tweet from Jeremy Clarkson (host of the British show Top Gear) "Americans. It took us 40 years to get rid of Piers Morgan. Pleasse don't send him back."

 
1216Boldwin
      ID: 30137817
      Fri, Feb 08, 2013, 23:27
Nominee CIA director Brennan, is a practicing muslim.
The President’s strategy is absolutely clear about the threat we face. Our enemy is not “terrorism” because terrorism is but a tactic. Our enemy is not “terror” because terror is a state of mind, and as Americans we refuse to live in fear. Nor do we describe our enemy as “jihadists” or “Islamists” because jihad is a holy struggle, a legitimate tenet of Islam. - Brennan



I feel safer already.

The media can't find anything in that which is noteworthy.
 
1217Boldwin
      ID: 30137817
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 07:23
Ministry of Propaganda schools the media in how to sell Obamacare. Your tax dollars hard at work.
 
1218Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 11:47
Nominee CIA director Brennan, is a practicing muslim.

Rather than posting a 3 hour video, which no one will sit through, you could have cut to the chase and posted this 10 minute video.

Then we could have found that the claim is made by ex-FBI agent John Guandolo.

The media can't find anything in that which is noteworthy.

Actually, the media has covered Guandolo as much or more than he deserves, given his credibility.

Conservative columnist Frank Gaffney claimed in a recent op-ed that FBI agent John Guandolo lost his job because he was too fiercely opposed to radical Islamic ideology, when in fact Guandolo resigned after sleeping with the key government witness in a major congressional corruption trial.

And in an e-mail exchange with TPMmuckraker, Gaffney is standing by the column, while providing no information to back up his claim.

The Jan. 5 column, which ran in the Washington Times and elsewhere and encourages president Obama to hire Guandolo as part of a terrorism “Team B,” includes this passage (emphasis ours):

Moreover, few in the military, intelligence or law enforcement communities have missed what has happened under this administration (and, in fairness, under the previous one) to patriots like the Joint Chiefs of Staff’s erstwhile Shariah specialist, Steven Coughlin, or an FBI special agent with deep expertise in counterterrorism and jihad, John Guandolo. For courageously challenging the official orthodoxy on the ideological wellspring of the threats we face, namely Shariah, they lost their jobs.

So we asked Gaffney if there was some information we didn’t know about the resignation of Guandolo, who has since made a career as an Islamic terrorism expert. Here’s how Gaffney responded:

“John had been a thorn in the side of senior leadership at the Bureau for several years as he worked to counter the influence of Muslim Brotherhood operatives within the FBI and in the government more generally. Other factors evidently contributed to his separation from the Bureau but his views on the failure to understand and counter the Islamists assuredly made him persona non grata with a number of his superiors.”

But does Gaffney think the column, which said Guandolo lost his job because of opposing orthodoxy on terrorism, should be corrected? No, he told TPMmuckraker.


Well researched, Boldwin. It took about 10 minutes to completely destroy the claim in #1216. Unless you have some other source to support that Brennan is a practising Muslim, a claim that even Guandolo doesn't make, any reference to the Ministry of Propoganda should be directed at you in this forum.


 
1219DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 11:50
At the risk of asking a really obvious question, WHO THE HECK CARES EVEN IF HE IS A PRACTICING MUSLIM?
 
1220Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 12:09
WHO THE HECK CARES EVEN IF HE IS A PRACTICING MUSLIM?

I think Frank Gafney answers that in my #1218:

the ideological wellspring of the threats we face, namely Shariah

I find it amusing. We can't even come to a consensus that it's a good idea to have background checks for all gun purchases, because of the 2nd amendment, but we must forbid persons of a religion from participating in government despite being in clear violation of the 1st amendment. I would put the threat of this country succumbing to Sharia somewhere behind

this asteroid hitting my house.
 
1221Boldwin
      ID: 30137817
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 12:26
Jihadist attempt on Danish Editor's life...virtual European and North American blackout.
 
1222Tree
      ID: 4127911
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 12:27
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story" - words more important to Baldwin than any bible verse. Truth simply doesn't matter to this man.
 
1223bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 12:42
1221 - How do you know it was a Jihadist who attempted to kill this guy? Because he is an ardent anti-Muslim?

Maybe it was someone from a Christian sect, attempting to kill him because he is an ardent Marxist.
 
1224Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 12:49
I don't doubt that there are religious extemists out there trying to kill people. But I did LOL at the "virtual European and North American blackout" note. First place I heard of it: Huff Post (a North American virtual news source).

Truth is, though, that Lars Hedegaard is a bigot and racist. I don't think he should be shot,of course, but this isn't coming out of the blue.
 
1225Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sat, Feb 09, 2013, 13:10
So, the jihadist missed shooting him in the head from a yard away, then got his ass kicked by the 71 year old intended victim. No witnesses. But I did get an invitation to purchase Dispatch International. Hmm.
 
1226Boldwin
      ID: 541331721
      Sun, Feb 17, 2013, 22:56
 
1227Tree
      ID: 1910562515
      Sun, Feb 17, 2013, 23:39
you are probably the least classy person i have ever had the pleasure of knowing. you have no integrity and honesty is not a value to you.

you could care less about the truth. you just want to slander and libel people you disagree with.

FBI finds no evidence that Sen. Menendez patronized prostitutes
 
1228Boldwin
      ID: 54120184
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 05:21
Give a guy months and months and eventually Menendez either forks over the other $400, or her manager Mr tells her to shut up, or just maybe she get's threatened, considering her purveyor was bribing Menendez in $700,000 size packages to get a contract in the Dominican Republic, just maybe he has the wherewithall to get HER to recant. Considering the contract in question has brought him in $500 million. "Honey, I got yer $400 right here."

You could actually listen to her detailed testimony if you wanted to.

And you should ask yourself why the NYT can't even come up with a defense of him other than, 'you didn't hear it from us first'. When a corrupt hispanic Dem senator can't get the support of the NYT and they are calling him to step down from his posts in congress, you know something is rotten in Denmark.
 
1229Tree
      ID: 2510132311
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 08:41
Yes, because you know everything. Why does the NY times need to support him? They're media, not his constituents.

Could you please provide proof that YOU don't screw underage hookers. After all, an accusations is more important than what actually happened, and someone is guilty before proven innocent in your world, and well, i see no evidence you're not frequenting underage hookers.
 
1230Boldwin
      ID: 36114188
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 14:23
They're media, not his constituents

They are democrat party operatives.
 
1231DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 14:53
Not as defined by, you know, sane people.
 
1232Tree
      ID: 2510132311
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 14:57
Why do I continue to get suckered into conversations with someone who is clearly bat$hit crazy.
 
1233Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Feb 18, 2013, 15:12
You just need more distractions.
 
1234Boldwin
      ID: 291531918
      Wed, Feb 20, 2013, 01:31
"The economy is so bad, MSNBC had to lay off 300 Obama spokesmen." ~LENO
 
1235Tree
      ID: 12248513
      Tue, Mar 05, 2013, 17:17
and now we can put another of Baldwin's lies to bed.

Confession shows sex claims were 'false smears,' senator says

Sen. Robert Menendez slammed accusations that he had paid a Dominican woman for sex and expressed hope Tuesday that those behind the claims would be exposed in the wake of the woman's notarized confession that she'd never even met the New Jersey Democrat.

"I hope that you will all vigorously go after who was the source and purpose as you did go after the story at the time," he told reporters.

In a notarized statement filed in court, Nexis de los Santos Santana said she was filmed without her knowledge when she claimed that Menendez had paid her to have sex.

"I am the person in the video, that is me, and those are my words, but this statement is not true," Santana said in the statement. "I never agreed to be recorded."
 
1236Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Tue, Mar 05, 2013, 18:46
I think we still don't know enough about this to make a call.

And the greater issue was that one or more of the escorts were underage. In this back and forth today I didn't see any mention of that. This girl was 23 or 24 during the time in question.
 
1237Boldwin
      ID: 16361119
      Thu, Apr 11, 2013, 21:51
"Tina Baldwin also testified that white patients often did not have to wait in the same dirty rooms as black and Asian clients." - Gosnell mass murder trial
Crickets - MSM

Putting underpants on prisoners' heads was good for three years of media outrage tho.
 
1238Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Thu, Apr 11, 2013, 23:00
Crickets - MSM

no coverage here in USA Today...

or here in the NY Times...

and so on.
 
1239Boldwin
      ID: 15318124
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 06:40
Infant beheadings. Severed baby feet in jars. A child screaming after it was delivered alive during an abortion procedure. Haven’t heard about these sickening accusations?

It’s not your fault. Since the murder trial of Pennsylvania abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell began March 18, there has been precious little coverage of the case that should be on every news show and front page. The revolting revelations of Gosnell’s former staff, who have been testifying to what they witnessed and did during late-term abortions, should shock anyone with a heart.

...“described how he snipped the spinal cords of babies, calling it, ‘literally a beheading. It is separating the brain from the body.” One former worker, Adrienne Moton, testified that Gosnell taught her his “snipping” technique to use on infants born alive.

...testified ”It would rain fetuses. Fetuses and blood all over the place.”

This should be front page news. - Kirsten Powers’s powerful USA Today essay
Not on the front page of USA Today, of course. 'An outside writer', member of USA TODAY's Board of Contributors buried in the middle of the paper.

It is impossible to overestimate how sacred the media hold some sacred cows.

TweetFest today, Fri 12.
In addition to asking pro-lifers to send out Tweets about the trial using the hashtag #Gosnell, organizers of the event are also asking them to contact their local media outlets to ask them why they’re not covering the trial.

Despite a continuous stream of dramatic, and often gruesome testimony coming out of the Pennsylvania courtroom where Gosnell is currently facing eight charges of murder, none of the major broadcast networks have covered the trial.

“If this was puppies that Gosnell was killing the media would be all over it,”
 
1240Boldwin
      ID: 15318124
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 06:58
If Gosnell had shot seven infants with an AR-15, it would be national news: Rep. Chris Smith
 
1241Boldwin
      ID: 15318124
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 07:05
Network TV coverage of the trial? Zero on ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, NPR, and PBS. CNN’s entire coverage seems to be one sentence from Jake Tapper on March 21.

The New York Times wrote one story before the trial began on March 19 (buried on page A-17). The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and USA Today couldn’t be “national” newspapers and report this trial.

They’re not unaware of it. CBS aired one story after the initial clinic raid in 2011. NBC offered 50 words. CBS even passed along that Gosnell's clinic was described as a "house of horrors." Now it’s in court, and the networks can't find any horrors. - Brent Bozell
 
1242sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 07:28
Lets assume for a moment B, that the charges against the Dr are entirely true and valid.

He will then be convicted and sentenced, as would be right. Other than that...so what? HE, does not make abortion a matter for you, to decide on behalf of another. YOU DONT HAVE THAT RIGHT. p-e-r-i-o-d
 
1243Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 11:21
the latter half of 1239 is why, for people such as yourself, this is an example of selective outrage. Never mind how garish the term "TweetFEST" sounds when discussing something so sick and morbid, for people like you, this case is about abortion.

it's not. it's not about abortion at all.

it's about a doctor breaking the law, and, causing people to get sick, and murdering others.

it's about a state, who regulatory system, completely failed in as epic a fail as there could be.

but this isn't about abortion, despite your organized celebrations to make it so.
 
1244Boldwin
      ID: 15318124
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 12:43
It's just the story of a potential mass murderer who operated for decades as government regulators did nothing.

- The very liberal 'The Slate', David Weigel, writing a self-reflective article after prodding from the USA TODAY guest piece.

 
1245Boldwin
      ID: 15318124
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 12:48
YOU DONT HAVE THAT RIGHT. p-e-r-i-o-d - Sarge

Even if they did legalize murder in the womb, they haven't legalized it outside the womb. You don't have that right, Gosnell doesn't have that right, the teen throwing her baby in the dumpster doesn't have that right.

Period

Even if Obama fought tooth and nail as an Illinois congressman for that unspeakable 'right'.
 
1247Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 13:02
For the record, David Weigel isn't a liberal. He's a registered republican and probably closer to libertarian than anything else. He writes for Slate currently but his syndicated work has appeared in The American Conservative, Reason Magazine, The American Spectator, Washington Monthly and The Nation.

Curiously, in the piece Weigel explicitly argues that Slate is not a socially liberal outlet.

He also notes that Republicans haven't been talking about this case, either.
 
1248Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 14:25
As Weigel notes, the reason it isn't really a huge political story is because the police are doing exactly as they were supposed to: They arrested the guy, and he's having a trial.

The Far Right would have us believe that the real story here is that the "MSM" isn't talking about it. The actual story is that the butcher was caught, charged, and is now on trial.

Rather than the actual issue, the Right want to talk about what people are talking about on the issue. That meta-talk is, frankly, boring and misses the point. I guess when you've built up a conservative echo chamber, you spend a lot of time talking about talking.
 
1249Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 14:36

Even if Obama fought tooth and nail as an Illinois congressman for that unspeakable 'right'.


this, of course, is another one of your lies. it's sick, and it's disgusting.

but what else should we expect from a poster who thrives in dishonesty?

 
1250Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 14:43
In my opinion the national media did drop the ball on this story.

Opine for yourself if the reason for that is political but one reason liberals support legal abortions is to prevent butchers like Gosnell from being the standard of that industry which, like drugs and alcohol and guns, will not go away if you ban it.

 
1251Boldwin
      ID: 23531214
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 21:39
AP calling them "Fetuses delivered alive"...AKA newborn child to people not locked into abortion protecting euphemism mode.
 
1252Boldwin
      ID: 23531214
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 21:41
OMG, Salon's take on it is that 'Yeah, but Bush killed more people than Gosnell'. Unbelievable.
 
1253sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 22:45
...the teen throwing her baby in the dumpster doesn't have that right.

Period

Even if Obama fought tooth and nail as an Illinois congressman for that unspeakable 'right'.


Show me where ANY politician, has EVER supported a "teen throwing her baby in the dumpster..."

I defy you to support your ignorant allegation.
 
1254Boldwin
      ID: 23531214
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 23:06
The reserved press seating at the Gosnell trial...no joke.

 
1255sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 23:26
Te above also, represents the nr of people in the gallery, anticipating Boldwin to ever own up to any of his gross and deliberate lies.
 
1256Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 23:29
Actually the local media has covered the case pretty heavily. There has been a heavy local media presence there.

Further, as far as I know there are no cameras allowed in the Gosnell courtroom, meaning that photo was most likely taken before proceedings began or during recess.
 
1257Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Fri, Apr 12, 2013, 23:50
The photo was taken by JD Mullane, a conservative blogger with phillyburbs.com. By his own account in the accompanying story, the local NBC affiliate and the Philadelphia Inquirer were there and reporters from the AP and NYT showed up as well.

Some of you know that I know a bit about media coverage of criminal trials. The fact of the matter is that very few cases that don't have a celebrity element and don't receive national attention get the kind of daily "gavel to gavel" coverage Boldy seems to demand. The resources at the local level simply aren't there. Mullane knows this.

But whether this case warrants national attention is another story. It does, and should receive more resources than it has and I suspect after this week's hubub, it will because there is now national interest.

But among other issues, there are no video cameras allowed, and the news media, being a profit-driven business, knows the ad revenue a case like this can deliver is very limited. So don't expect daily blow by blow accounts of testimony, especially if this thing drags on for many weeks.

Boldy and the wingnuts will have you believe it's all a matter of liberal bias but the truth is that the national conservative outlets have been even more absent (at least the AP & NYT showed up at all) - because they didn't think it was a moneymaker, either.

We'll know whether and how much that has changed when we see how the coverage changes going forward.
 
1258Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 00:15
A couple of excellent pieces at Salon:

Irin Carmon
If you’ve never heard of the Gosnell story, it’s not because of a coverup by the liberal mainstream media. It’s probably because you failed to pay attention to the copious coverage among pro-choice and feminist journalists, as well as the big news organizations, when the news first broke in 2011.


How often do such places devote their energies to covering the massive health disparities and poor outcomes that are wrought by our current system? How often are the travails of the women whose vulnerabilities Gosnell exploited — the poor, immigrants and otherwise marginalized people — given wall-to-wall, trial-level coverage?
Alex Seitz-Wald
As Dave Weigel points out in his response to Carmon, one reason Gosnell didn’t get more attention was because the judge issued a gag order preventing lawyers from speaking publicly about it, but another may be that pro-life politicians never nationalized Gosnell’s crimes and made them into an issue that would attract more discussion.

A search of the Congressional Record for the 112th Congress (2011-2012) turns up zero mentions for Gosnell, while a search of the current 113th Congress finds three — all from yesterday.


What about the conservative media? A search of TVEyes finds that Fox News mentioned the case just a handful of times. Special Report With Bret Baier included brief updates on the trail in its roundup of the day’s news on several nights over the past month, while Mike Huckabee aired a taped segment followed by a panel discussion on his weekend show late last month, but it’s hardly been leading news. The “Obama phone” got far more coverage.

A search of the National Review’s website shows it’s written little on Gosnell, while the Weekly Standard has done three pieces (the magazine has run six stories on Justin Bieber). To its credit, Breitbart.com, which decried “a full-blown, coordinated blackout throughout the entire national media” has written plenty about Gosnell. But Twitchy, the Michelle Malkin-backed conservative Twitter-activism site that has been haranguing the media for not covering the case, didn’t offer its first real mention until March 19.

And I couldn’t find anything from Fox contributor Kirsten Powers on Gosnell from before this week. She kicked off this whole conversation with a USA Today Op-Ed.

Regardless of whether the Gosnell case should be getting more attention, it’s difficult to take complaints seriously from people who haven’t used their own public platforms to push a story they think others are now ignoring.
 
1259Boldwin
      ID: 23531214
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 00:16
Show me where ANY politician, has EVER supported a "teen throwing her baby in the dumpster..." - Sarge

Obama is at the head of the list of politicians who have advocated the position that some people are disposable unpersons. Newborns just don't have the qaly's yet.

Obama's 10 reasons for supporting infanticide

Obama was one of just a handful of Illinois senators to actually vote to kill the 'Born Alive' bill that would have reinforced the prohibition against killing newborns.

He was the only one who actually had the chutzpah to stand up on the floor of the Illinois senate and openly advocate for infanticide. In the above link are listed the reasons he gave for his position.

Now that he is president he has put people in key positions of power who praise forced abortions, forced sterilization in other countries and who come from the bioethics community which promotes 'fourth trimester' live totally out of the womb abortions in this country.
 
1260Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 00:18
Or you can just believe the only thing a liberal loves more than an aborted fetus is a murdered baby.


I sure know I love me some murdered babies.
 
1261Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 00:20
...as long as you don't use a legally purchased and responsibly owned firearm to kill them. That just ruins it.
 
1262Boldwin
      ID: 23531214
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 00:28
Exactly...mountain of dead babies, countless live-born newborns with scissors in their necks, no AK, no AR-15, no story.
 
1263Boldwin
      ID: 23531214
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 00:29
 
1265Boldwin
      ID: 52337136
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 08:24
Until Thursday, I wasn't aware of this story. It has generated sparse coverage in the national media, and while it's been mentioned in RSS feeds to which I subscribe, I skip past most news items. I still consume a tremendous amount of journalism. Yet had I been asked at a trivia night about the identity of Kermit Gosnell, I would've been stumped and helplessly guessed a green Muppet. Then I saw Kirsten Power's USA Todaycolumn. She makes a powerful, persuasive case that the Gosnell trial ought to be getting a lot more attention in the national press than it is getting.

The media criticism angle interests me. But I agree that the story has been undercovered, and I happen to be a working journalist, so I'll begin by telling the rest of the story for its own sake.

...journalists routinely treat accounts given by police, prosecutors and grand juries as at least plausible if not proven. Try to decide, as you hear the state's side of the case, whether you think it is credible, and if so, whether the possibility that some or all this happened demands massive journalistic scrutiny.

On February 18, 2010, the FBI raided the "Women's Medical Society," entering its offices about 8:30 p.m. Agents expected to find evidence that it was illegally selling prescription drugs. On entering, they quickly realized something else was amiss. In the grand jury report's telling, "There was blood on the floor. A stench of urine filled the air. A flea-infested cat was wandering through the facility, and there were cat feces on the stairs. Semi-conscious women scheduled for abortions were moaning in the waiting room or the recovery room, where they sat on dirty recliners covered with blood-stained blankets. All the women had been sedated by unlicensed staff." [with demerol, the same stuff that killed MJ - B] Authorities had also learned about the patient that died at the facility several months prior.

Public health officials inspected the surgery rooms. "Instruments were not sterile," the grand jury states. "Equipment was rusty and outdated. Oxygen equipment was covered with dust, and had not been inspected. The same corroded suction tubing used for abortions was the only tubing available for oral airways if assistance for breathing was needed. There was no functioning resuscitation or even monitoring equipment, except for a single blood pressure cuff." Upon further inspection, "the search team discovered fetal remains haphazardly stored throughout the clinic - in bags, milk jugs, orange juice cartons, and even in cat-food containers."

And "Gosnell admitted to Detective Wood that at least 10 to 20 percent of the fetuses were probably older than 24 weeks in gestation - even though Pennsylvania law prohibits abortions after 24 weeks. In some instances, surgical incisions had been made at the base of the fetal skulls." Gosnell's medical license was quickly suspended. 18 days later, The Department of Health filed papers to start the process of closing the clinic. The district attorney submitted the case to the grand jury on May 4, 2010. Testimony was taken from 58 witnesses. Evidence was examined.

In Pennsylvania, most doctors won't perform abortions after the 20th week, many for health reasons, others for moral reasons. Abortions after 24 weeks are illegal. Until 2009, Gosnell reportedly performed mostly first and second trimester abortions. But his clinic had come to develop a bad reputation, and could attract only women who couldn't get an abortion elsewhere, former employees have said. "Steven Massof estimated that in 40 percent of the second-trimester abortions performed by Gosnell, the fetuses were beyond 24 weeks gestational age," the grand jury states. "Latosha Lewis testified that Gosnell performed procedures over 24 weeks 'too much to count,' and ones up to 26 weeks 'very often.' ...in the last few years, she testified, Gosnell increasingly saw out-of-state referrals, which were all second-trimester, or beyond. By these estimates, Gosnell performed at least four or five illegal abortions every week."

When you perform late-term "abortions" by inducing labor, you get babies. Live, breathing, squirming babies. By 24 weeks, most babies born prematurely will survive if they receive appropriate medical care. But that was not what the Women's Medical Society was about.

Over the years, there were hundreds of "snippings." Sometimes, if Gosnell was unavailable, the "snipping" was done by one of his fake doctors, or even by one of the administrative staff.

But all the employees of the Women's Medical Society knew. Everyone there acted as if it wasn't murder at all. Most of these acts cannot be prosecuted, because Gosnell destroyed the files. Among the relatively few cases that could be specifically documented, one was Baby Boy A. His 17-year-old mother was almost 30 weeks pregnant - seven and a half months - when labor was induced. An employee estimated his birth weight as approaching six pounds. He was breathing and moving when Dr. Gosnell severed his spine and put the body in a plastic shoebox for disposal. The doctor joked that this baby was so big he could "walk me to the bus stop."

One woman "was left lying in place for hours after Gosnell tore her cervix and colon while trying, unsuccessfully, to extract the fetus," the report states. Another patient, 19, "was held for several hours after Gosnell punctured her uterus. As a result of the delay, she fell into shock from blood loss, and had to undergo a hysterectomy." A third patient "went into convulsions during an abortion, fell off the procedure table, and hit her head on the floor. Gosnell wouldn't call an ambulance, and wouldn't let the woman's companion leave the building so that he could call an ambulance."

Often times, women given drugs to induce labor delivered before the doctor even arrived at work.

Said one former employee: She was a 41-year-old, refugee who had recently come to the United States from a resettlement camp in Nepal. When she arrived at the clinic, Gosnell, as usual, was not there. Office workers had her sign various forms that she could not read, and then began doping her up. She received repeated unmonitored, unrecorded intravenous injections of Demerol, a sedative seldom used in recent years because of its dangers. Gosnell liked it because it was cheap. After several hours, Mrs. Mongar simply stopped breathing. When employees finally noticed, Gosnell was called in and briefl y attempted to give CPR. He couldn't use the defibrillator (it was broken); nor did he administer emergency medications that might have restarted her heart. After further crucial delay, paramedics finally arrived, but Mrs.Mongar was probably brain dead before they were even called. In the meantime, the clinic staff hooked up machinery and rearranged her body to make it look like they had been in the midst of a routine, safe abortion procedure.

Even then, there might have been some slim hope of reviving Mrs. Mongar. The paramedics were able to generate a weak pulse. But, because of the cluttered hallways and the padlocked emergency door, it took them over twenty minutes just to find a way to get her out of the building. Doctors at the hospital managed to keep her heart beating, but they never knew what they were trying to treat, because Gosnell and his staff lied about how much anesthesia they had given, and who had given it. By that point, there was no way to restore any neurological activity. Life support was removed the next day. Karnamaya Mongar was pronounced dead.

Another provocative detail: A former employee testified "that white patients often did not have to wait in the same dirty rooms as black and Asian clients. Instead, Gosnell would escort them up the back steps to the only clean office - Dr. O'Neill's - and he would turn on the TV for them. Mrs. Mongar, she said, would have been treated 'no different from the rest of the Africans and Asians.'"

If... a baby was about to come out, I would take the woman to the bathroom, they would sit on the toilet and basically the baby would fall out and it would be in the toilet and I would be rubbing her back and trying to calm her down for two, three, four hours until Dr. Gosnell comes.

She would not move.

Anesthesia was frequently dispensed by employees who were neither legally permitted nor trained to do it, including a 15-year-old high school student who worked at the clinic, the report states.

Most employees did as they were told, but one objected:

Marcella Stanley Choung, who told us that her "training" for anesthesia consisted of a 15-minute description by Gosnell and reading a chart he had posted in a cabinet. She was so uncomfortable medicating patients, she said, that she "didn't sleep at night." She knew that if she made even a small error, "I can kill this lady, and I'm not jail material." One night in 2002, when she found herself alone with 15 patients, she refused Gosnell's directives to medicate them. She made an excuse, went to her car, and drove away, never to return. Choung immediately filed a complaint with the Department of State, but the department never acted on it.

Pennsylvania is not a third-world country. There were several oversight agencies that stumbled upon and should have shut down Kermit Gosnell long ago. But none of them did...

The first line of defense was the Pennsylvania Department of Health. The department's job is to audit hospitals and outpatient medical facilities, like Gosnell's, to make sure that they follow the rules and provide safe care. The department had contact with the Women's Medical Society dating back to 1979, when it first issued approval to open an abortion clinic. It did not conduct another site review until 1989, ten years later. Numerous violations were already apparent, but Gosnell got a pass when he promised to fix them. Site reviews in 1992 and 1993 also noted various violations, but again failed to ensure they were corrected.

But at least the department had been doing something up to that point, however ineffectual. After 1993, even that pro form a effort came to an end. Not because of administrative ennui, although there had been plenty. Instead, the Pennsylvania Department of Health abruptly decided, for political reasons, to stop inspecting abortion clinics at all... The only exception to this live-and-let-die policy was supposed to be for complaints dumped directly on the department's doorstep. Those, at least, would be investigated. Except that there were complaints about Gosnell, repeatedly. Several different attorneys, representing women injured by Gosnell, contacted the department. A doctor from Children's Hospital of Philadelphia hand-delivered a complaint, advising the department that numerous patients he had referred for abortions came back from Gosnell with the same venereal disease. The medical examiner of Delaware County informed the department that Gosnell had performed an illegal abortion on a 14-year-old girl carrying a 30-week-old baby. And the department received official notice that a woman named Karnamaya Mongar had died at Gosnell's hands.

Yet not one of these alarm bells - not even Mrs. Mongar's death - prompted the department to look at Gosnell or the Women's Medical Society... But even this total abdication by the Department of Health might not have been fatal. Another agency with authority in the health field, the Pennsylvania Department of State, could have stopped Gosnell single-handedly.

The Department of State, through its Board of Medicine, licenses and oversees individual physicians... Almost a decade ago, a former employee of Gosnell presented the Board of Medicine with a complaint that laid out the whole scope of his operation: the unclean, unsterile conditions; the unlicensed workers; the unsupervised sedation; the underage abortion patients; even the over-prescribing of pain pills with high resale value on the street. The department assigned an investigator, whose investigation consisted primarily of an offsite interview with Gosnell. The investigator never inspected the facility, questioned other employees, or reviewed any records. Department attorneys chose to accept this incomplete investigation, and dismissed the complaint as unconfirmed.

Shortly thereafter the department received an even more disturbing report - about a woman, years before Karnamaya Mongar, who died of sepsis after Gosnell perforated her uterus. The woman was 22 years old. A civil suit against Gosnell was settled for almost a million dollars, and the insurance company forwarded the information to the department. That report should have been all the confirmation needed for the complaint from the former employee that was already in the department's possession. Instead, the department attorneys dismissed this complaint too... The same thing happened at least twice more: the department received complaints about lawsuits against Gosnell, but dismissed them as meaningless...

Philadelphia health department employees regularly visited the Women's Medical Society to retrieve blood samples for testing purposes, but never noticed, or more likely never bothered to report, that anything was amiss. Another employee inspected the clinic in response to a complaint that dead fetuses were being stored in paper bags in the employees' lunch refrigerator. The inspection confirmed numerous violations... But no follow-up was ever done... A health department representative also came to the clinic as part of a citywide vaccination program. She promptly discovered that Gosnell was scamming the program; she was the only employee, city or state, who actually tried to do something about the appalling things she saw there. By asking questions and poking around, she was able to file detailed reports identifying many of the most egregious elements of Gosnell's practice. It should have been enough to stop him. But instead her reports went into a black hole, weeks before Karnamaya Mongar walked into the Woman's Medical Society.

...And it wasn't just government agencies that did nothing. The Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania and its subsidiary, Penn Presbyterian Medical Center, are in the same neighborhood as Gosnell's office. State law requires hospitals to report complications from abortions. A decade ago, a Gosnell patient died at HUP after a botched abortion, and the hospital apparently filed the necessary report. But the victims kept coming in. At least three other Gosnell patients were brought to Penn facilities for emergency surgery; emergency room personnel said they have treated many others as well. And at least one additional woman was hospitalized there after Gosnell had begun a flagrantly illegal abortion of a 29-week-old fetus. Yet, other than the one initial report, Penn could find not a single case in which it complied with its legal duty to alert authorities to the danger. Not even when a second woman turned up virtually dead...

So too with the National Abortion Federation.

NAF is an association of abortion providers that upholds the strict est health and legal standards for its members. Gosnell, bizarrely, applied for admission shortly after Karnamaya Mongar's death. Despite his various efforts to fool her, the evaluator from NAF readily noted that records were not properly kept, that risks were not explained, that patients were not monitored, that equipment was not available, that anesthesia was misused. It was the worst abortion clinic she had ever inspected. Of course, she rejected Gosnell's application. She just never told anyone in authority about all the horrible, dangerous things she had seen.
The abortion loving MSM almost managed to wait out the clock on this news blackout. Read the whole thing. If Sandra Fluke was a scandalous War On Women hashed out here for three months, what is it that Gosnell was doing?
 
1266Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 08:28
Look at Old Boldy coming around on Connor Friedersdorf!

 
1267Boldwin
      ID: 52337136
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 08:35
What do you mean by 'coming around'?

It will be interesting to see who in the MSM attempts to CYA, and who decide to continue the 'wait-out-the-clock' strategy of media malfeasance.

I predict in a month the public still can't place Gosnell's name.
 
1268Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 09:47
So you're a long standing Freidersdorf fan now?
 
1269Boldwin
      ID: 52337136
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 11:50
I was neither a fan before, nor have I become one now that he has Covered His...by belatedly discussing the story. He's currently doing better than 99.99% of the MSM at least.
 
1270biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 12:40
Why would you think anyone needs to "CYA"?

Winger minds work in mysterious ways.
 
1271Boldwin
      ID: 93451422
      Sun, Apr 14, 2013, 23:45
Why would you think anyone needs to "CYA"? - bili
---
If you claim to be a journalist, and had plenty of time during the Gosnell trial to vilify black miracle working, common sense hero Ben Carson with your national media access...

...you need a perfunctory [after-the-fact-and-only-because-you-were-dragged-kicking-and-screamin-against-your-will'] mention of the Gosnell trial in order to maintain the pretense that you are a journalist.


 
1272Boldwin
      ID: 93451422
      Sun, Apr 14, 2013, 23:49
Video confirmation
 
1273Boldwin
      ID: 93451422
      Sun, Apr 14, 2013, 23:58
Breaking: Eric Holder’s wife co-owns abortion clinic building run by indicted abortionist Tyrone Cecile Malloy, indicted for medicare fraud. - Jill Stanek
 
1274biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 01:27
Who's Ben Carson? What does he have to do with this murder trial? What are you talking about?

 
1275Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 01:54
Carson is black. Gosnell is black.

in Baldwin's world, there are so few black people of note, they are all related somehow.
 
1276Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 01:58
post 1273 is hysterical.

so Eric Holder's wife and her sister inherited a building that housed an abortion clinic. this is important how?
 
1277Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 02:11
Because that is how smears work, tree. She co-owns the building. Holder is AG. MSM is liberal. Do we have to draw a picture for you?
 
1278Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 02:18
considering Baldwin's news "sources" pretty much are for the coloring book set, a picture might help.
 
1279Boldwin
      ID: 1836156
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 07:06
It wasn't like the media couldn't be bothered, or didn't have the space to talk about newsworthy black doctors.

They had evening news time and prominent column inches to vilify this guy.

MSNBC

CNN's Wolf Blitzer

Washington Post


CBS



But how many living kicking screaming babies does a guy have to kill to get on the national news? How many women does he have to kill with demerol? How many patients does a doctor have to infect with venereal disease before he gets a little media attention? How many health codes and workplace violations and underage amateur 'doctors' performing anesthesiology and assisting with abortions does it take for a guy to get noticed? How many regulators can get away with deliberately turning a blind eye to this stuff? How many decades can they do so?

Let's wait out the clock on Gosnell. Sit on our hands during his trial. Hope the story dies with a whimper unnoticed. We'd rather talk about that awful awful Ben Carson.
 
1280Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 08:08
But how many living kicking screaming babies does a guy have to kill to get on the national news?

I could make the applicable counter arguments to this and other disingenuous statements, exposing the ignorance/dishonesty this forum has come to expect from our resident superstar but before I go to the trouble, does anyone actually believe he has a fair point beyond the fact that the entirety of the national media - left and right alike - has failed to give the trial it's due coverage?

If not, I'd just as soon let him have at his latest windmill. Hopefully the little guy will tucker himself out, go to bed early and allow the adults to talk.
 
1281Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 12:36
The real Kermit Gosnell story? Misogyny

If there was a pro-choice left-wing cover-up, it was a pretty shoddy one. After all, feminist and pro-choice writers covered Gosnell extensively when the story first broke in 2010 and in 2011 when the Grand Jury report detailing Gosnell's alleged crimes was filed. Coverage came from Katha Pollitt in the Nation, Amanda Marcotte in Slate, Kate Harding in Salon, Margaret Hartman and Erin Gloria Ryan in Jezebel, Akiba Solomon in Colorlines, Lori Adelman in NBC's the Grio, Michelle Goldberg in the Daily Beast, and dozens of other pieces in smaller publications and on blogs, including yours truly. We all condemned him in strong terms, using phrases like "horror show", "house of horrors" and "butcher", and detailed the accusations.

The mainstream media also covered the case. CNN, Time, the New York Times, NPR, CBS, the Washington Post and dozens of other outlets all featured the charges against Gosnell in early 2011. Then in April, the court issued a gag order, barring attorneys in the case from speaking to the media - a fairly common practice, especially in high-profile criminal trials. The trial commenced a few weeks ago, and, as is standard practice, local news outlets have covered the play-by-play. Once a verdict is handed down, there is little doubt that mainstream publications will again dedicate stories and segments to the case. But until then, without access to the players in the case and having already detailed the allegations and evidence, there simply isn't much to report....

, the current media narrative that "no one covered this case" would not exist in a universe where male journalists treated women's health issues as simply health issues, and read their female colleagues' health care writing. Assuming that if you did not see it, it must not exist is not good journalism. Neither is taking at face value allegations made by sources that have proven unreliable and untrustworthy.

The lessons of Gosnell's house of horrors are clear: women in the US need access to good health care, including abortion care. Just like outlawing abortion, stigmatising it and making it unavailable for low-income and rural women does not make abortion go away; it just makes it dangerous and unregulated. The lessons from the Gosnell media criticisms are similarly obvious: Do not trust known liars with an agenda.




 
1282Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 13:06
does anyone actually believe he has a fair point beyond the fact that the entirety of the national media - left and right alike - has failed to give the trial it's due coverage?


he definitely has a fair point. not one i'd argue with, because it's a ghastly case and there has been national coverage for far lesser things.

MITH - it was interesting reading your take on it, vis a vis the lack of cameras and the fact that while it's a juicy story, the pulp isn't there.

but Baldwin's reasons for this case not being covered by the national media, are silly ones. this case wasn't covered because of anything related to one's political beliefs on abortion.
 
1283Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 13:41
I agree, Tree. I also think that, if news was strictly driven by political considerations, that the "liberal media" would be all over this, as it indicates the very kind of back alley butchering that women have been trying to overcome for some time.

And the restriction of abortion access makes butchers like this more likely.

I agree with Baldwin that this story is ripe for political exploitation. But just not the kind he hopes for.
 
1285Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 13:57
...but very much the kind he is utilizing.
 
1286Boldwin
      ID: 1836156
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 14:29
I can guess the solution the Sarge's of the world will come up with. Force doctors to do abortions or be forced out of medicine.

I got a better solution. Legalizing abortions didn't prevent back alley abortions. It industrialized them.

Legalizing abortions was a failed experiment. Dump it.
 
1287Boldwin
      ID: 1836156
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 14:35
Why he did his first murder; He was Kermitt Gosnell.

Why he did his 1000th; 'ends-justify-the-means' liberal regulators.
 
1288Boldwin
      ID: 1836156
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 15:16
Force doctors to do abortions or be forced out of medicine.

But of course they will eventually. As if forcing the Catholic Church to finance abortion and birth control was gonna be the stopping point in the conscience crushing enterprise.

Obamacare provides the how. They can specify the exact procedures doctors can and must perform.

Obamacare was already gonna force out of business a big fraction of the doctors anyway. How would you tell the ones quitting over abortion on demand, from the ones quitting over low pay and other lost freedoms?

And you can just blame the crash in the number of doctors on conservatives and institute the radical death panel triage and euthanazia you were planning on anyway.
 
1289Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 16:10
i'm pretty sure 1286 - 1288 contribute about nothing to furthering this conversation.

you have a point this should have been better covered Baldy. but your reasons are so silly, it makes it really hard to actually agree with you on the initial point, because no one wants to get lumped in with that idiocy.
 
1290Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 17:24
I also think that, if news was strictly driven by political considerations, that the "liberal media" would be all over this, as it indicates the very kind of back alley butchering that women have been trying to overcome for some time.

And the restriction of abortion access makes butchers like this more likely.


ask, and ye shall receive.

Anti-Choice Laws Responsible for Philadelphia Abortionist Dr. Kermit Gosnell
 
1291Boldwin
      ID: 423541517
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 18:55
Oh there's some liberal beauties out there. Read Marcotte.

Blaims everyone but Bush and I may have forgotten the blame Bush section.
 
1292Boldwin
      ID: 423541517
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 23:00
Anyone wanna guess whether Obama ever mentions Gosnell and suggests we do a better job protecting newborns?

They say there's a first time for everything.
 
1293Boldwin
      ID: 423541517
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 23:22
Really uncomfortable truth. It wasn't so much that he liked killing babies. It was that he was an incompetent affirmative action doctor who was kicked out of other medicine for liposuctioning people to death and moved on to a field where that was considered a positive.

Unfortunately he wasn't skilled enuff to perform abortions so instead he made the women go completely thru labor, deliver the baby themselves [often on a toilet] and murdered the babies later.

For four decades if I'm not mistaken.
 
1294sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 23:31
outlaw abortion, and his "practices", will become far more prevalent.

or we could teach and assist in providing contraception.

just sayin....
 
1295Tree
      ID: 40328723
      Mon, Apr 15, 2013, 23:40
Anyone wanna guess whether Obama ever mentions Gosnell

i don't know why he would. Gosnell has nothing to do with Obama, or politics.

 
1296Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, Apr 17, 2013, 14:53


Spot the typo!

[Hint: It is in the headline]
 
1297Boldwin
      ID: 43318184
      Thu, Apr 18, 2013, 11:08
When you are doing something of monumental import...You don't notice the cat poop...that's not even an issue.
 
1299Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 16:47
Atlantic piece on why newspapers trend liberal.
 
1300Boldwin
      ID: 233202518
      Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:50
Good piece. Speaking only for the Chicago market, Illinois is split down the middle with a bare majority Democrats. The Chicago Tribune is available by daily subscription throughout the entire northern half of the state at a minimum, and has always been accused of being more conservative than it's weaker rival, The Suntimes.

I'd imagine the exodus of Koch brothers hating Journ-O-lists will be something to behold if the sale comes off.

I'd subscribe to a newspaper for the first time since Watergate.
 
1301Boldwin
      ID: 13342611
      Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 12:35
Years and years too late, NYT finally follows Breitbart's lead to notice Pigford is almost entirely fraud and is a huge cash black hole.

That's the way they do it. Wait till it bankrupts the country and then post a me-too CYA mention of the issue years later. After trashing Breitbart who beat you to the stories years ahead of you if you even got there.
 
1307Boldwin
      ID: 364024
      Thu, May 02, 2013, 05:11
You missed it.
 
1308Boldwin
      ID: 2145104
      Fri, May 10, 2013, 07:47
For people who ostensibly hate "hegemony," the Left sure gets awfully butthurt whenever we threaten their stranglehold on media. - Will Antonin
 
1309Boldwin
      ID: 174531013
      Sat, May 11, 2013, 07:54
Top Obama official’s brother is president of CBS News, may drop reporter over Benghazi coverage.

Go ahead. Tell me how the MSM isn't so biased that's it's useless.
 
1310sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sun, May 12, 2013, 10:12
If I had an employee, constantly spending his/her working hours on a waste of time, I'd let them go too.
 
1311Boldwin
      ID: 594551321
      Tue, May 14, 2013, 16:58
 
1312Boldwin
      ID: 174421417
      Tue, May 14, 2013, 18:42
 
1313Boldwin
      ID: 174421417
      Tue, May 14, 2013, 23:12
Wonders never cease!

ABC reporter tells truth about IRS-gate.

I'm as gobsmacked as you!
 
1314Boldwin
      ID: 174421417
      Tue, May 14, 2013, 23:50
Jon Stewart Leibowitz
 
1315Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 00:21
no one here is "gobsmacked". you're the one who thinks the "msm" is biased, when, in fact, they almost over cover both sides of the story.

you've been critical of "liberals" countless times, saying we never criticize our own - you've now posted multiple examples of what you claim the left never does.
 
1317Boldwin
      ID: 424311517
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 19:53
Latest trick of MSM to ignore the stories they want to spike while retaining a shred of deniability...

Well I may not have put it on the show but I made a couple tweets so...

At least we got the important news...Angelina Joli's breasts, Prince Harry's visit.
 
1318Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Wed, May 15, 2013, 20:48
says the guy who actually did comment on Jolie's breasts.
 
1319Boldwin
      ID: 414282020
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 22:06
See no evil

MSNBC audience hits seven year low.

Fox scores second highest viewership of the year.
 
1320Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 22:13
Re: 1319

Is it possible that many liberals are in the demographic that gets most of their news from the internet?

Maybe I'm stereotyping but so much of the younger generation is computer savvy and heads to the internet to get their news. Much of the older generation may not be as savvy and heads to the TV.

Do you have data on web page hits for MSNBC vs. Fox?
 
1321Boldwin
      ID: 414282020
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 22:24
That question sounds like it might be more up MITH's alley.
 
1322Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 23:25
Do you have data on web page hits for MSNBC vs. Fox?

well, for starters, there no longer is an MSNBC.com. it's nbcnews.com.

you can get basic metrics from Alexa.com.

but whether website or news channel, the statements Baldwin made (MSNBC audience hits seven year low.

Fox scores second highest viewership of the year.
) are independent of each other, and one does not have a bearing on the other. it's not as if that indicates "well, people must be switching from MSNBC to Fox."

additionally, i'd imagine - as Farn pointed out - people get their news from multiple sources. These days, i'm more apt to follow Twitter or Facebook for breaking news as it pertains to me - cnn, fox, nbcnews, and any other news site is macro news to me.

but FB? Twitter? it's micronews, and often more relevant to my world (such as multiple friends of mine desperately looking for information about missing loved ones in Moore, OK).

anyway - on to the original topic - i'd be curious as to what Baldwin's point was - if he even has one - or if he was just repeating facts while waving pom poms and wearing a cheerleader skirt.
 
1323Mith
      ID: 29182720
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 23:40
FOX News supporters throw out all kinds of numbers with ambiguous context to make their dominance of the cable TV market seem like it means more than it does.

The bottom line is that there is no single 30 or 60 minute show on FOX News Channel that gets even half the ratings that any of the national network broadcast shows deliver.

In the article Boldwin pridefully linked in 1319, the writer attempts to dupe the reader into being impressed that FNC had averaged 1.5 million "total day viewers" last week, which they boast was their second-best week this year.

Here's one day's FNC ratings broken down by show (I picked a Thursday of last week as an example, which seemed to match up with the average figures cited for the week in B's link).

The best rated hour on FNC that day was (as always) The Factor, with 3.137m viewers.

The network's flagship news program, Special Report which airs up against the broadcast network shows, got 2.306m viewers.

Now, here's how the broadcast network evening news shows averaged the week of May 6th.

CBS: 6,412m viewers
ABC: 7,469m viewers
NBC: 8,169m viewers

For good measure we'll remember to include the 2.449m viewers that the other cable news networks get during that hour and we come to just under 9% of the traditional evening news time slot viewing public choosing FOX News Channel as the source of their information.

Further, in the key 25-54 demo (which I'll note here because Boldy's prideful link boasts FNC's performance in this area and also because it partly answer's Farn's question) FNC appears far less dominant among the cable news outlets. On Thursday they lost 3 key slots (5pm, 6pm, 7pm) in the demo to HLN.

And the worst performing network evening news broadcast in the demo (CBS) still more than triples Special Report's ratings among them.

Assuming Thursday makes for an appropriate example, FNC attracts less than 6% of news viewers in the key demo during America's favorite news watchin' time.
 
1324Boldwin
      ID: 174532022
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 23:53
I coulda sworn that was you a while ago trying to convince me Fox News was mainstream, so conservatives weren't shut out of the media after all.
 
1325Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 23:55
The point was and is that if CNN and MSNBC are mainstream, then FOX must be as well.
 
1326Boldwin
      ID: 4429213
      Tue, May 21, 2013, 04:36
Maybe someday the truth will escape into basic cable.
 
1331Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Wed, May 22, 2013, 12:06
Tree - he obviously (by the standards of deduction I have leard from well over a decade of reading Boldwin posts at Rotoguru) couldn't stand letting the bitchslap he took after #1319 stand as the final discussion in this thread.

So he changed the subject to the 14 year old Pigford scandal, which he created a thread to discuss a year and a half ago and then posted about in this thread just three weeks ago in post 1301. That was 4/26 - the same date the Breitbart piece in 1330 was published.
 
1332Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Wed, May 22, 2013, 12:30
MITH is right, there is a pigford thread that Baldwin created, no need to pollute this thread with that rehash.
 
1333Tree
      ID: 14412212
      Wed, May 22, 2013, 13:01
appreciate the clarification.
 
1337boikin
      ID: 430211013
      Thu, May 23, 2013, 14:35
Not sure if this belongs in the EU thread of hear but makes an interesting case: swedish riots not covered by swedish media.
 
1340Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 08:25
I do think that CNN and MSNBC lean left, and FoxNews leans right, but more and more I think that they lean towards incompetence.

From Twitter last night. The Verge

2 of the tweets.

120,000 people watching the livestream of #SB5 and neither @CNN, @MSNBC nor @FoxNews are covering it. Twitter > Cable News.

History is being made in #Texas, while @CNN talks about blueberry muffins. LITERALLY. @cleveil1 @ElizSimins pic.twitter.com/sau3IizgLl #sb5


I hadn't heard of Wendy Davis before, but I wish I was as proud of my representatives as I am of Wendy Davis.
 
1341Mith
      ID: 412561115
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 09:18
That's because when you watch cable news after 8pm you aren't watching news. Americans don't want live news at that time. They want drama and outrage, be it in the form of Sean Hannity, Rachel Maddow, Tony Soprano or Gordon Ramsey.
 
1342boikin
      ID: 430211013
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 10:23
I don't want to say this story was not important, because for Texas residents I am sure it is. But 120,000 people watching something on internet does not make it news. And without knowing how often people fillibuster in Texas I am not sure this even rare event.

 
1343Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 10:52
I hadn't heard of Wendy Davis before, but I wish I was as proud of my representatives as I am of Wendy Davis.

Wendy Davis is my representative, and it literally puts tears in my eyes because of how proud i am of her. a friend of mine is also her former campaign manager.

what she did last night, what Texas Democrats, AND WHAT THE PEOPLE OF TEXAS DID, was huge. despite a slew of underhanded tactics from the Republican majority (including voting after midnight and then claiming the vote happened before midnight), the people of Texas, led by Wendy, spoke up, and made themselves heard, took action, and made things happen.

I don't want to say this story was not important, because for Texas residents I am sure it is. But 120,000 people watching something on internet does not make it news. And without knowing how often people fillibuster in Texas I am not sure this even rare event.

it's not just Texas. it's for everywhere. 37 of 42 Abortion clinics would have been shuttered. all that would have remained was one each in Dallas, Austin, and San Antonio, and two in Houston.

A city like Fort Worth - the 16th largest in the nation, would have none. El Paso, the 19th largest city in the nation, would have none.

as for the filibuster - eventually struck down from the Republicans for what they claimed were rule violations - was momentous regardless of how often they happen. 13 hours standing, no leaning, no sitting, NO BATHROOM BREAKS, no pauses in conversation. YOU try that.

this was a big day in Texas, and i couldn't be more proud. ( a bit more here on what happened)
 
1344Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 11:30
10 Reasons You Should Love Wendy Davis

 
1345Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 12:26
There was a *lot* of controversy last night over whether the eventual vote was a legal one, or not. I fell asleep long before it was settled, but came across this: the pic that killed the bill.
 
1346Tree
      ID: 95342611
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 12:39
exactly.

i cannot believe the gall and the level of dishonesty the Republicans have in changing the time stamp.

i don't even know how that's illegal.
 
1347sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 13:12
Generally speaking, falsifying an official govt document, is a SERIOUS crime. Now, proving specifically WHO did it, could be a whole different issue.

Problem here, is that Perry can simply call another special session, and then it all starts again.
 
1348Tree
      ID: 95342611
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 18:06
and yet another reason to hate Rick Perry.

AUSTIN - Gov. Rick Perry today announced a Special Session of the Texas Legislature will begin at 2 p.m. Monday, July 1.
 
1349Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 19:44
"And this time we're not lettin' the People interrupt us from doin' the People's business."
 
1350Boldwin
      ID: 14672015
      Sat, Jul 20, 2013, 16:07
What if liberalism is really Just one Potemkin village after another, all the way down?
 
1351sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Sat, Jul 20, 2013, 17:03
except B, throughoout American history, you can not show one case, where conservatives have been on the right side of social history. Your entire premise, liberal = evil, is false.

The Revolutionary war itself, VERY progressive
The FF ideals, extraordinarily progressive.
The Civil War and Pres Lincoln, progressive.
Womens Suffrage, progressive.
The end of child labor, progressive.
The New Deal, progressive.
Civil Rights movement, progressive.

You lose dude. History has already passed judgement.
 
1352Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Sat, Jul 20, 2013, 18:24
Driscoll's note is important, though: The author's involvement in the deal should have been noted in the piece.

What should not have kept Driscoll's dander from getting up is the knowledge that it was an opinion piece. Not news.

Kinda intersting, someone on the Right getting angry about a piece lauding the privatizing of government services. But we'll pin a pin in that hypocrisy for now.
 
1353Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Thu, Aug 08, 2013, 11:28
15 Things Everyone Would Know if There Were a Liberal Media
 
1354Pancho Villa
      ID: 40610217
      Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 08:22
Maureen Dowd with a scathing indictment of the Clintons
 
1355Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 09:37
I dunno--Dowd seems to be taking the Clintons to task (again) because people are willing to pay them lots of money for speeches and so forth.

Was hoping for more fire rather than smoke from the title. Dowd seems almost angry to even be writing "Clinton" these days. I'm not so sure my interest in how Dowd feels about the Clintons rises to the level of actually caring.
 
1356Pancho Villa
      ID: 40610217
      Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 11:12
According to Media Matters, it's not just Dowd, but

NY Times anti-Clinton bias.
 
1357sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 16:47
AP fires reporter and editor, for false report alledging Candidate McAuliffe lied to federal investigators


The Associated Press has fired a reporter and editor in connection to a false story alleging Virginia Democratic gubernatorial candidate Terry McAuliffe lied to a postal inspector in a fraud scheme, according to The Huffington Post.


The author of the report, which was retracted soon after it was published, Bob Lewis has been fired, the news services announced Monday. Dena Potter, a news editor for the Associated Press who covered Virginia and West Virginia, has also been fired.

Earlier in October the news service reported that McAuliffe had lied to a federal official investigating a fraud scheme run by a Rhode Island estate planner. The report cited documents which referred to a person named "T.M." T.M. turned out to be somebody other than McAuliffe.


There are those who will say this proves bias. I think, it proves a desire for accuracy and honesty. I'm sure, these two will have new jobs at FOX, shortly.