Forum: pol
Page 1991
Subject: SCOTUS Nominees 2005-2008


  Posted by: Toral - [22731114] Tue, Sep 28, 2004, 15:24

Thread for media speculation on likely SCOTUS nominees in the next 4 years like this short article in Newsweek and discussion.
 
1Motley Crue
ID: 181650
Tue, Sep 28, 2004, 19:31
I heard if 2/3 of the people in California dislike her, Sandra Day O'Connor can be replaced by Arnold Schwarzenegger in a recall vote this October.
 
2Toral
ID: 22731114
Thu, Dec 30, 2004, 22:32
James Taranto thinks that the Dems may not go all out to defeat a (presumptively) anti-Roe SCOTUS nominee.

Possible sequence emerging:

1) A conservative replaced Rehnquist.

2) Gonzales, who seems unlikely to vote to overturn Roe, takes the next seat, without hard-core Dem opposition,

3) Death struggle occurs if a conservative is appointed to replace someone from the left bloc on the third nomination. Dems hope this doesn't happen till after mid-terms in 2006, when they hope to make gains.

Toral
 
3nerveclinic
ID: 34757310
Sun, Jan 02, 2005, 02:12
Dems hope this doesn't happen till after mid-terms in 2006, when they hope to make gains.

I would think they would dream of it happening before 2006 because it would assure a landslide victory for them.
 
4Toral
ID: 53422511
Mon, May 30, 2005, 06:40
The contestants:
-- Some possible Supreme Court nominees if Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist steps down:

_James Harvie Wilkinson III, appointed to the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Va., by President Reagan in 1984. He has built a solidly conservative record.


_Larry Thompson, deputy attorney general and the Bush administration's highest-ranking black law-enforcement official until he quit in 2003. He is general counsel at PepsiCo.

_John Roberts, a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia since 2003 and former Rehnquist clerk.

_Michael McConnell, a judge on the Denver-based 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. A respected conservative legal scholar, he enjoys bipartisan support in the academic community.

_J. Michael Luttig, a Texas native who worked in the Justice Department during the first Bush administration. He was named to the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in 1991.

_Samuel Alito Jr., a judge on the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia. He is nicknamed "Scalito" because he has views like Scalia.

_Edith Jones, a judge on the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans and former general counsel for the Texas Republican Party.

_Emilio Miller Garza, a judge on the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. President Bush's father considered the Hispanic judge a Supreme Court prospect.

_Theodore B. Olson, Bush's solicitor general until last summer. He represented Bush in the 2000 Bush v. Gore case at the Supreme Court.

Toral


 
5Toral
ID: 53422511
Mon, May 30, 2005, 06:45
Betcom.com's line:
Next Justice Appointed to US Supreme Court

114 Alex Kozinski +1500
115 Jon Kyl +1200
112 Orrin G. Hatch +1200
113 Frank Easterbrook +1000
110 Larry Thompson +900
103 Miguel Estrada +900
106 Edith Jones +750
108 Theodore B. Olson +600
104 Emilio Miller Garza +600
102 Janice Rogers Brown +600
109 John Roberts +350
101 Samuel A. Alito Jr. +100
111 James Harvie Wilkinson III -280
107 J. Michael Luttig -350
105 Alberto R. Gonzales

 
6myboyjack
ID: 234581910
Thu, Jun 02, 2005, 12:28
Posner?

That would be an interesting notion - selecting a SCOTUS nominee based on the fact that he he is smart, knowledgable and honest. Sounds fishy.

However, looks there are plenty of good nominees:

Judge Hatchett overuled by Judge Joe Brown
 
7Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Jun 02, 2005, 12:42
Interesting you bring Posner up. I was wondering if someone ever would (here or anywhere).

Posner may be the smartest judge in America, and the best qualified. Undoubtedly the greatest legal writer of the 20th century, and amazingly prolific. But I don't think he will be nominated or could be confirmed (against a filibuster) -- because he has no natural political constituency.

He is generally thought of as "conservative" -- but he is of the view that the law should stay out of consensual matters entirely (he wrote a book on the whole subject of sex and the law) and he wrote a decision striking down the partial-birth abortion law.

So social liberals should like him, then? No because feminists hate him. He has written numerous articles carefully dissecting "feminist legal scholarship" and saying that it is utter garbage.

And he rips apart liberal legal scholarship at every turn.

He's a wealth-maximizer in economics, rather than a libertarian, so the hard-line libertarians have no particular love for him.

I suppose his natural constituency is "big business", but contrary to what leftists believe. big business has almost no interest in judicial nominations. And it never fights; it sits on its ass.

I believe social conservatives would support him if nominated even though he would not vote to overturn Roe, because they just want good honest judges. But they would not fight for him; and I believe the Dems would filibuster him even though he is a reliable pro-Roe vote.

Toral

 
8myboyjack
ID: 234581910
Thu, Jun 02, 2005, 12:47
Posner would be a really bizarre person to filibuster. Trying to paint him as an "extremist"? - It would be amusing watching some of the usual suspects trying to grill him on the law in committee though.

Feminists and minority groups wouldn't appreciate his views on Title VII either.
 
9Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Jun 02, 2005, 12:51
Posner has written enough that the liberal special-interest groups could paint him as an "extremist" by cherry-picking from his writings.

And really these groups are skilful at painting anyone they don't like as an extremist. If necessary, they just lie a lot.

Toral
 
10Perm Dude
ID: 5437312
Thu, Jun 02, 2005, 12:54
Sounds like Republican staffers during the Clinton Administrations.
 
11Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Jun 02, 2005, 13:01
Posner would be a brilliant and fascinating choice for a "balance of the Court" appointment if the President has the opportunity to nominate replacements to 2 centre/left bloc judges.

For Rehnquist (who will retire this month): McConnell or Wilkinson

For the next opening, whenever:
a Hispanic, Garza or Gonzales

And then , if there is another opening, with the balance of the Court at issue, Richard Posner.

It would be the most fascinating nomination battle ever, without doubt. Selecting a SCOTUS nominee based on the fact that he he is smart, knowledgable and honest. It sure would confuse the special-interst groups on all sides.

Toral
 
12Toral
ID: 53422511
Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 14:43
Here's the best guy. And he could even be the guy. He's starting to get some pub.

Liberal academics will be divided about his nomination, which possibly could make the difference in a filibuster attempt.

Toral
 
13Toral
ID: 53422511
Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 14:53
Re the discussion on Posner -- just noticed he has his own blog.

The top post today reminds me of another reason Posner won't be nominated -- he's over 65, and no POTUS want to waste an appointment on a short-term justice.

Toral
 
14Madman
ID: 114321413
Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 17:18
SCOTUS Nomination Blog
 
15Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Mon, Jun 06, 2005, 19:43
Re post 12 - McConnell

Interesting. Vehemently hates Roe v. Wade, libertarian regarding religious issues, choose to move to Utah, is against the flag burning amendment - so he's hit and miss.

I like the point in the article wondering if GW would like him, he has an academic air and reads for hours on end.
 
16Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Tue, Jun 07, 2005, 08:52
In the blog that Madman links I believe that there a reason that these two judges Alito and Luttig are mentioned first: Young early 50's and very conservative. In that they will most likely be replacing Rhenquist, they are the most likely choices at this time.

McConnell would probably make a good 3rd selection if there is one in the next three years.

 
17Toral
ID: 53422511
Fri, Jun 24, 2005, 17:48
This week's developments:

1. The Washington Post published a story last week-end widely taken to imply that Alberto Gonzales was President's Bush's leading choice to fill the vacancy caused if Chief Justice Rehnquist resigned. That seemed off to many conservatives --why waste the person who is regarded as the most easily confirmable of the possible choices, to replace Rehnquist, the easiest confirmation battle?

2. Then, Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol published this speculative but highly plausible suggestion:
Warning: THIS IS SPECULATION. Obviously, I think it's somewhat well-informed speculation, or else I wouldn't be writing this. But it is speculation.

(1) There will be a Supreme Court resignation within the next week. But it will be Justice O'Connor, not Chief Justice Rehnquist. There are several tea-leaf-like suggestions that O'Connor may be stepping down, including the fact that she has apparently arranged to spend much more time in Arizona beginning this fall. There are also recent intimations that Chief Justice Rehnquist may not resign. This would be consistent with Justice O'Connor having confided her plan to step down to the chief a while ago. Rehnquist probably believes that it wouldn't be good for the Court to have two resignations at once, so he would presumably stay on for as long as his health permits, and/or until after Justice O'Connor's replacement is confirmed.

(2) President Bush will appoint Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to replace O'Connor. Bush certainly wants to put Gonzales on the Supreme Court. Presidents usually find a way to do what they want to do.

And his aides will have an argument to make to conservatives (like me) who would be unhappy with a Gonzales pick: Bush would not, after all, be replacing a conservative stalwart like Rehnquist with Gonzales. Gonzales would be taking O'Connor's seat, and Gonzales is likely to be as conservative as, or even more conservative than, O'Connor. Indeed, Karl Rove will continue, Gonzales is as conservative a nominee to replace O'Connor as one could find who could overcome

a threatened Democratic filibuster. Bush aides will also assure us privately that when Rehnquist does step down, Bush will nominate a strong conservative as his replacement. They might not tell us that nominee would be as an associate justice, for Bush would plan to then promote Gonzales to chief justice--thus creating a "Gonzales Court," a truly distinctive Bush legacy.

A Gonzales nomination would, in my view, virtually forfeit any chance in the near term for a fundamental reversal in the downward drift of American constitutional jurisprudence. But I now think it is more likely than not to happen.
This would make sense: suddenly the battle over the 1st appointment of a pro-Roe judge comes now, making Gonzales a very plausible candidate.
Since the story there has been further evidence: Justice O'Connor hasn't hired a new clerk for the fall term.

(3) There is a good review of all the candidates on the SCOTUS shortlist by Emily Bazelon and David Newman at Slate

---------------------------------------

Term ends Monday, I believe. Any resignations likely to be announced then.

Toral
 
18Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 09:12
One more reason why this matters...
To put the Supreme Court's recent ban on the Ten Commandments display in perspective, here is a small sampling of other speech that has been funded in whole or in part by taxpayers:



Graphic videos demonstrating how to put a condom on and pep talks by "Planned Parenthood educators." – sex education classes at public schools across the nation

Qurans distributed to aspiring terrorists at Guantanamo. – U.S. military

"If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers (than the attack of 9-11), I'd really be interested in hearing about it." – Ward Churchill, professor, University of Colorado

We need "a million more Mogadishus" (referring to the slaughter of 18 American soldiers during a peacekeeping mission in Somalia in 1993). – Nicholas De Genova, assistant professor, Columbia University

"The entire federal government – the Congress, the executive, the courts – is united behind a right-wing agenda for which George W. Bush believes he now has a mandate. That agenda includes the power of the state to force pregnant women to surrender control over their own lives ... If you like the Supreme Court that put George W. Bush in the White House, you will swoon over what's coming. And if you like God in government, get ready for the Rapture ..." – Bill Moyers' commentary on PBS' "Now"

"Kiss it." – governor of Arkansas to state employee

"For most Americans ... (war with Japan) was a war of vengeance. For most Japanese, it was a war to defend their unique culture against Western imperialism ... Some have argued that the United States would never have dropped the bomb on the Germans, because Americans were more reluctant to bomb 'white people' than Asians." – Smithsonian exhibit to commemorate the 50th anniversary of VJ Day, later modified due to protests

"Anglos consolidated their control of New Mexico, acquiring huge holdings from the original owners through fraud and manipulation." – Smithsonian exhibit

"Ignored were the less honorable aspects of California history – the profiteering, revolts against Mexican authority and Indian massacres." – Smithsonian exhibit, comment on the painting "The Promised Land – The Grayson Family"

"This predominance of negative and violent views was a manifestation of Indian hating, a largely manufactured, calculated reversal of the basic facts of white encroachment and deceit." – Smithsonian exhibit

"In the Americas, sugar meant slavery." – Smithsonian exhibit

Close-up photos of women's v*ginas plastered all over a portrait of the Virgin Mary (which the New York Times will still not mention when it describes the "art"). – Brooklyn Museum of Art

A photo of a woman breastfeeding an infant, titled "Jesus Sucks." – NEA-funded performance

A photo of a newborn infant with its mouth open titled to suggest the infant was available for oral sex. – NEA-funded performance

"F--- a Fetus" poster showing an unborn baby with the caption: "For all you folks who consider a fetus more valuable than a woman, have a fetus cook for you, have a fetus affair, go to a fetus' house to ease your sexual frustration." – NEA-funded performance

Performance of giant bloody tampons, satanic bunnies, three-foot feces and vibrators. – NEA-funded performance

A novel depicting the sexual molestation of a group of 10 children in a pedophile's garage, including acts of bestiality, with the children commenting on how much they enjoyed the pedophilia. – NEA-funded publisher

Christ submerged in a jar of urine. – NEA-funded exhibit

A female performer inserting a speculum into her v*gina and inviting audience members on stage to view her cervix with a flashlight. – NEA-funded performance

A performance of large, sexually explicit props covered with Bibles performing a wide variety of sex acts and concluding with a mass Bible-burning. – NEA-funded performance (canceled by the venue in response to citizen protests)

A show titled "DEGENERATE WITH A CAPITAL D" featuring a display of the remains of the artist's own aborted baby. – NEA-funded exhibit

A play titled "Sincerity Forever," depicting Christ using obscenities and endorsing any and all types of sexual activities as consistent with biblical teaching. – NEA-funded exhibit

Essay describing then-New York Cardinal John O'Connor as a "fat cannibal from that house of walking swastikas up on Fifth Avenue." Also photographs of men performing oral sex, anal sex, oral-anal sex and masturbation. – NEA-funded exhibit

That's the America you live in! A country founded on a compact with God, forged from the idea that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights is now a country where taxpayers can be forced to subsidize "artistic" exhibits of aborted fetuses. But don't start thinking about putting up a Ten Commandments display. That's offensive!



I don't want to hear any jabberwocky from the Court TV amateurs about "the establishment of religion." (1) A Ten Commandments monument does not establish a religion. (2) The First Amendment prohibits Congress from making any law "respecting" an establishment of religion – meaning Congress cannot make a law establishing a religion, nor can it make a law prohibiting the states from establishing a religion. We've been through this a million times.

Now the Supreme Court is itching to ban the Pledge of Allegiance because of its offensive reference to one nation "under God." (Perhaps that "God" stuff could be replaced with a vulgar sexual reference.) But with the court looking like a geriatric ward these days, they don't want to alarm Americans right before a battle over the next Supreme Court nominee. Be alarmed. This is what it's about. - She who rules all she surveys

 
19Tree
ID: 9362211
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 10:03
Graphic videos demonstrating how to put a condom on and pep talks by "Planned Parenthood educators." – sex education classes at public schools across the nation

Qurans distributed to aspiring terrorists at Guantanamo. – U.S. military


i stopped your list after these two. it's hard to take something seriously when you throw in phrases like "graphic", "pep talks" and "aspiring" that are clearly editorial comments, and not factual.

i am curious about these things though, Baldwin, so i'll ask.

1. we know you think the world will stay virgins until marriage if we don't say S-E-X, but it's just not realistic. i would rather our children learn how to prevent pregnancy and STDs then get pregnant at the age of 13, or get a life-long illness as a teenager.

2. as you've already stated, you're pretty much cool denying civil rights to those who aren't straight, white, christians. so to give a muslim prisoner his God would be wrong in your eyes.

should we deny christian prisoners the rights to a priest, bible, or similar?
 
20Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 10:23
should we deny christian prisoners the rights to a priest, bible, or similar?

If you actually caught them red-handed killing people based on their beliefs?

Irrelevent to Coulter's point. The government is far more friendly to any other belief system than christianity.
 
21Tree
ID: 9362211
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 12:12
The government is far more friendly to any other belief system than christianity.

this is one of those jaw-dropping statements, that is just beyond absurd.

then again, if you truly believe this, blame the Christians, as they hold most of the positions of powers in this country.
 
22Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 12:21
Tell it to the NEA. You see them in some danger of forcing you to be a christian, do you?
 
23Tree
ID: 9362211
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 12:27
the NEA? National Endowment for the Arts? National Education Association?

even so, you blame an entire government, then single out one tiny little part of it as your proof???
 
24Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 13:15
C'mon Tree, if the government which had been cruelly forcing you to look at the ten commandments in a last few remaining redoubts, had been genuinely interested in forcing you to be a christian would they really allow for a National Endowment for the Arts and what they've been about?
 
25Tree
ID: 9362211
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 13:21
the ten commandments

the 10 commandments predate Christianity. sure, Christianity has co-opted them, but this ruling was not against christianity.

nonetheless, a wonderful attempt, again, at an end around. so i'll repeat.

even so, you blame an entire government, then single out one tiny little part of it as your proof???
 
26Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 13:40
Yes Tree, I think the NEA provides a perfect microcosm to illustrate that the government really has unconstitutionally established a national religion and that religion is amoral secular humanism, something that Dewey was doing in our school system a century ago and the National Endowment for the Arts has been in perfect accord with for many decades.
 
27Tree
ID: 9362211
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 14:07
speaking as a non-Christian, i can tell you this is a Christian nation. even when i was very young, i had to fight against this, as i had teachers purposely schedule tests on Jewish high holidays, then insist on giving me a more difficult test because i intentionally missed a school day in which i knew there was a test.

don't paint yourself an even larger fool - this is, indeed, a christian nation.

how many non-christians have been President? how many have served in congress? as governors?

and what's the population that identifies itself as christian?

survey says..........
 
28Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 15:40
Tree, the answer to your question can be found link
 
29Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 15:43
That didn't work too well, but just check out the solomanproject.org for a complete listing of all Jewish poloticians.
 
30Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 15:49
Oddly enuff grade school used to be the one place where they really did force feed you christian holiday festivities. I'll give you that. But no genuine christianity, that is for sure. As you may know I don't believe any of those holidays are christian and didn't enjoy them anymore than you did. They are going easier on them now days. I always wondered if that was just because it was the easiest and most fun thing the teachers could come up with. Or a chick thang. I have an ex-sister-in-law whose whole life revolved around decorating for the next holiday.
 
31Tree
ID: 9362211
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 15:50
TF - can't get either of those to work.

the point being, the majority - the VAST majority of politicians in this country - identify as Christians.
 
32Texas Flood
ID: 145442719
Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 16:48
Tree sorry, it's thesolomonproject.org. I spelled it soloman, duh!
 
33Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 02:15
Tree

I've had a few beers and I just want to point something out to you that is obvious to the rest of us, but you haven't caught on. Baldwin does not mesh well with your average American Christian. He is a Jehovah's Witness. They do not celebrate Christmas, it is a pagan holiday in their minds. You name a denomination of Christianity and he will give you a ten thousand word essay about how they are wrong.

You point out that there is near unaminity in Congress in accepting Christ as their savior as proof that this country is run by Christians. Baldwin scoffs, Christians are not of this world, no Christian would even VOTE much less run for office.

The rest of Christianity thinks of Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult, a bunch of crazies, much like the Mormons in PV's neck of the woods. Baldy knows that and thrives on it. Don't make the mistake of equating his outlandishness with anything a mainstream Christian group would suggest.

From my perspective, the JW's are far more interesting and alive than a stultifying, dead tradition like the Anglicans. They are all a bit daft, but at least the JW's have spunk.
 
34Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 02:27
If that was in anyway meant as a defense, thanks I guess. 8]

Tree should stop pointing out people who claim to be christian and worry only about people who both claim to be christian and who are against keeping the country pluralistic. Not that there are enuff around to be worried about. How many of those can you find in congress? I can't think of any unless there are closet dominionists I am not aware of in there.

Then you can explain to me what the Clintons are doing hanging out with the dominionists I do know about? Just sheep dipping Hillary for her presidential run thinking it will fool enuff on the right? Nah, they've been hanging with those people forever and they aren't well known. A real brain teaser that one.
 
35Tree
ID: 215341418
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 06:59
SZ - i'm fully aware that Baldwin is a JW, and i'm fully aware of their standing in the christian community.

i realize that JW's have their own skewed perspective, and as odd as it may be, as long as it doesn't involve a lot of the "traditional" things cults are often accussed of, i've got no problem with them, other than the problem i have with most of organized religion - that being the preaching and the "we're right and you're wrong so join us or we'll kill you" ethos.

we should agree to disagree, but instead, we use religion as a weapon. it doesn't matter to me if it's Bush, Frist, Santorum, Bin Laden, Kahane, or Baldwin - they all use religion as a weapon of hatred and segregation.
 
36Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 09:13
I can't think of anyone in America with that ethos.
 
37Tree
ID: 9362211
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 10:33
O'Connor to Retire From Supreme Court

here we go...
 
38Razor
ID: 36241218
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 11:08
Scheiίe.
 
39Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 20:17
So that the O'Conner thread can be about her, I doubt Gonzales is the choice because the left hates him and the right dislikes his soft stance on Roe.

That being said, the left and Roe proponents will claim Roe is in danger, hog wash. Right now it's 6-3, replacing O'Conner with a judge who disagrees with Roe will not endanger Roe. In fact since it's very likely Rhenquist retires as well, the Roe proponents would still have a 5-4 advantage.

Personally I would like to see Bush nominate as O'Conner's replacement:
1. Janice Rodgers Brown
2. Edith Brown Clements
3. Emilio Garza

All would be safe conservative, and appear to be solid legal minds, and no older than mid-50's.

The first two would put the Dem's in box if they chose to filabuster.

Then save Michael Luttig for Rhenquist when he retires.
 
40biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 20:24
What box? Do dems have some sort of obligation to support all women no matter how poor a judge?

I've heard speculation they'll save Gonzalez to replace Rhenquist and get their war on for Sandy's replacement.
 
41Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 20:31
I've heard speculation they'll save Gonzalez to replace Rhenquist and get their war on for Sandy's replacement.

Really? I've heard just the opposite: That Gonzalez will replace O'Connor because he maintains the current balance of the Court on Roe, and that Bush's favorite conservative would replace Rhenquist.
 
42Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 22:41
I just don't think Gonzalez will be nominated for several reason: 1) Conservatives don't like him due to his stand on abortion, 2) His handling of government dealings with the WOT and having to recuse himself from all cases involving them and other issues that he has been involved with as AG and White House Counsel.

I've heard that Bush really wants him, but have read late this afternoon that there is word that Gonzalez realizes it's not very likely.

The "box" is if Brown is the nominee-she was just confirmed and to obstruct her now would make the dems look like obstructionist, and possibly upset two segments of their base-women and African Americans.

As far as "holding balance" conservatives reelected Bush to get as many conservative judges on the court as possible.
 
43Perm Dude
ID: 165591315
Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 22:47
Your last point hits it on the head: Many voted for Bush so he can pack SCOTUS with conservatives, and they didn't feel Kerry would appoint anyone with which they could agree.

Like it or not, Bush's voter mandate is to pick a conservative judge to continue the work toward overturning Roe v Wade. A clear and unwavering pro-life stance is necessary for the Bush SCOTUS appointee.
 
44Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 07:00
No, no, you guys are missing the obvious two nominees.
Bush should nominate Ann Coulter. She is constitutional scholar with a J.D. from a respectable law school. That's more than most of our Justices have had, historically.

I'm serious.

'Bout time the Supremes had a babe in their lineup...

But, seriously. AC is, like the Farm Boy, not to be taken lightly. She has the courage of her convictions. More important, though, she has convictions in the first place.

Only her regular listeners know, but Laura Ingraham HAS served two, count 'em, two Supreme Court justices AT the court.
She may be a more logical choice than AC.
I must admit that both are bomb throwers but LI, through en loco experience, is the more qualified.

 
45Toral
ID: 53422511
Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 08:38
Bush has said from Day One that there will be no litmus test (i.e. Roe) for his SCOTUS nominees and I believe he's telling the truth.

Anyone who can predict Gonzales' eventual vote on Roe has much better tea leaves than mine. (Roe still has 5 vites even if Gonzales were to vote against.)

The only relatively safe speculation at this point is that Gonzales is the easiest confirmation and the only one who won't set off WW III in the Senate.

Toral

 
46Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 08:49
How many more Republican election celebrations do we have to see before nominee critics can no longer declare a possible Roe v Wade no-vote as 'out of the mainstream' and keep a straight face?
 
47Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 11:20
Bili, also the box would be more specifically for the 7 Dems who are part of the gang of 14. If Bush nominated Brown or for that matter Owen, both were confirmed and would by appearance seem to be above the threshold of "extraordianry".

By the way I don't believe Bush needs to nominate a woman to take O'Conners spot.

This came from the blog "Southern Appeal"...

Possible Gonzales Nomination: Have conservatives Been Duped Yet Again??

Time after time conservatives are told that we must vote Republican because of judges. We must overlook the growth of government spending and government intervention in our lives. If we don't vote for the likes of Dubya, then the Living Constitution crowd will delete liberties found in the Constitution and create new "rights" for various special interests. Fearing this, we go to the polls and vote GOP. Never mind, that we know that abominations like Kelo were made possible by a justices selected by Ford (Stevens), Reagan (Kennedy), and Bush (Souter).

Most of you know that I did not vote for Dubya last time around. I cast my ballot for a third party candidate. If the President appoints Gonzales, I hope more of you will do the same.

Gonzales is a great choice for Justice if you are left of center, but is a conservative's nightmare.

1. He has served on the National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic organization that supports such items as the "DREAM Act," which would mandate states to offer in-state tuition rates to illegal aliens--thus providing them with benefits not available to U.S. citizens from other states.

2. He is no friend of the Second Amendment--during his confirmation hearings he told the U.S. Senate he supports extending the expired federal assault weapons ban.

3. And pro-lifers have serious concerns about his nomination.

4. Let's not forget Alberto's role in the Grutter decision on affirmative action. Ted Olson's original drafts of briefs in Grutter argued against any consideration of race in the composition of student bodies in state schools. Enter Gonzales and his edits praising diversity and arguing it could be a compelling state interest.

5. His torture memos were also an insult and incongruent with a civilized society.

How sad is it that after all the work conservatives have done to defeat Kerry, they are faced with a possible Gonzales nomination. That is a crime.


Perhaps it's number 5 that would discount Gonzales more than anything, for through out his hearing there would be the constant drumbeat of the war in Iraq .

I've been reading that perhaps Sen Cornyn may be a wild card (53, former TX State SCJ, and a Rep Governor would pick his successor).

Here is a link from June 5th on 5 possible nominees http://confirmthem.com/?p=674

It's also being reported that Frist has talked with Reid in the last couple of weeks and showed him a list 3 with Garza at the top, and all 3 were "unacceaptable". (redstate.org)
 
48sarge33rd
ID: 344362512
Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 12:15
post 17 hit right on the money so far.
 
49Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 12:32
Ahhh, he's just a stalking horse. It's AC all the way baby! 8]
 
50Toral
ID: 53422511
Sun, Jul 03, 2005, 17:54
Words from Judge Bork. As one reads his interviews, it's easy to see why his smearing was the one precipitating incident that could cause conservatives to raise up and defend themselves on judicial nominations:
KAGAN: I would like to ask you a personal question, Justice Bork. As what you went through back in 1987, what kind of advice would you give to whomever is nominated as it goes forward?

BORK: I don't think I can give any very good advice. After all, as I once put it, it's like asking Custer how to deal with the Indians.

Toral
 
51Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 13:08
Ah, yes, the Senate's finest moment, saving us from the catastrophe a Bork appointment would have precipitated. Advise and consent indeed!
 
52Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 14:12
Instead we now have eminent domain to replace your lakeside view with a megaplex. Something Bork would have surely never gone along with. Thanx SZ. What is the plural of liberal dufus?
 
53Sludge
ID: 14411118
Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 14:37
To follow up from a previous post of mine somewhere, "dufi" is the answer, of course.
 
54Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 14:38
dufae, i think
 
55Perm Dude
ID: 165591315
Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 14:53
Because it's feminine?
 
56Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 10:22
TradeSports contracts on the SCOTUS possibles.

Gonzales futures exploded yesterday, it has been reported. The "other Hispanic", Emilio Garza, is the 2nd most preferred candidate.

Edith Brown Clement and Edith Jones look like reasonable propositions at the price.

Toral
 
57Perm Dude
ID: 165591315
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 11:41
Decent Byron York piece on Ginsberg's nomination.

How Cuomo got as far as he did without the ability to make a decision is beyond me.
 
58Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 12:58
I know little to nothing about the SCOTUS process and I'm hoping you guys can answer some basic (for you at least) questions about the process.

1) If the Chief Justice retires, would Bush appoint a nominee as Chief Justice or would somebody get a promotion and Bush would then nominate a Judge?

2) How many votes does it take to confirm a nominee? Does this only occur in the Senate?

3) Can the court operate and decide on matters if it is not fully staffed because of a vacancy?

Despite my neophyteness on the topic, I would like to see a nominee that is a strict constitutionalist and will not invent laws as we go. I would not want someone whose agenda is to overturn Roe vs. Wade, but at the same time I want a conservative that will be permissive when it comes to the War On Terror and Homeland Security related issues.

Based on my limited research, I'm thinking my guy is Luttig. Anyone else that fits that bill.
 
59Perm Dude
ID: 165591315
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 13:38
1. Bush gets a choice on the matter, but it would subject to ratification;

2. 2/3 approval by the Senate is required (67 Senators).

3. Court can certainly operate--indeed, when Rehquist was out recently they still heard cases and will decide them without his vote.
 
60Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 13:56
1) Bush can choose to nominate either a sitting justice for Chief(requires senate confirmation) and new justice(requires senate confirmation), or his new nominee could be nominated for the chief justice slot(requires senate conformation.)

Chances are that Bush chooses the latter to keep it down to 1 confirmation battle.

2) Majority of senators-Thomas was confirmed with 52 votes. If there is a filibuster then you would need 60 to break the filibuster and then a simple majority to confirm.

3)Yes
 
61Perm Dude
ID: 165591315
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 14:03
Rev is right--I skipped a step. Almost always the minority party threatens some kind of filibuster. Having 67 overcomes all objections.
 
62FRICK@Work
ID: 220211
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 14:41
I'd root for Frank Easterbrook, if only because his brother is the Tuedsay Morning Quarterback at NFL.com.

If you have never read his column, it is an interesting mixture of football and randomness.

Honestly, I have virtually no information about any of the nominees. My thought is to wait for a nominee and then do the research to see if I can live with the appointee. I know that Roe vs. Wade is a monumental decision in American History, but should this or any other issue, be the deciding point for a canidate.

I find it unlikely that any one canidate is going to agree on all issues.
 
63Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 14:54
Re 58 #3

O'Connor made her resignation effective upon the confirmation of a replacement. Unless she changes her mind, she'll be back at the old stand in October if a replacement hasn't been confirmed.

Toral
 
64Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 15:09
Luttig is more likely as a replacement for Rehnquist.

Here's a division based on the likely degree of objection by Democrats as best as I can figure, from least to most objectionable:

Trench Warfare:

Gonzales, Clement, Wilkinson

Full-Scale Conventional Warfare:

McConnell, Roberts

Nuclear Conflaguration:

Luttig, Jones, Garza

Toral
 
65Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Wed, Jul 06, 2005, 04:51
Why does no one suggest renominating Bork? I can't think of anyone I trust more to be a strict constructionist. In this immediate post Kelo environment I think he even has a leg up in the process.
 
66Tree
ID: 215341418
Wed, Jul 06, 2005, 07:27
aside from the fact that the Bork nomination was ugly the first time, he's also 68 years old.

it was ugly then, it would be even uglier now.
 
67Perm Dude
ID: 165591315
Wed, Jul 06, 2005, 10:08
Spector would never vote to nominate Bork again. He never liked him the first time.
 
68Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Wed, Jul 06, 2005, 10:20
McConnell would be the best candidate, but he's a white, Anglo-Saxon male.
Bush will likely, for legacy sake, nominate a Hispanic, probably Garza. Democratic opposition to a Hispanic nomination will be painted as racist, blurring the actual positions and philosophies. Regardless, I hope the Democrats don't take an obstructionist stance. Elections matter, and Bush should be given a wide lane to nominate a candidate.

 
69Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Wed, Jul 06, 2005, 11:05
Bush nominates another Souter or Kennedy non-conservative and there will be serious third party talk and sitting on hands from the conservatives. You wouldn't want to be a Republican fundraiser after that.
 
70Tree
ID: 9362211
Wed, Jul 06, 2005, 16:51
and there will be serious third party talk

good. let the Republicans splinter even more.
 
71Boldwin
ID: 543312819
Sat, Jul 09, 2005, 16:34
She who rules all she surveys takes well deserved parting shots.
 
72Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 12, 2005, 15:59
FREE Scotus Futures Market

Gonzales has slumped badly on TradeSports last few days. Garza now the favourite.

Toral
 
73Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 09:21
It now appears the announcement will be sometime this week, maybe even today according to the WP.

My guess is Edith Brown Clement.

Toral
 
74Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:02
Everybody ready?

Judge Clement is something of a "stealth" candidate. Conservative blogs are getting posts -- even from fairly close court-followers -- saying "anyone know anything about her judicial philosophy"?

Toral
 
75Tree
ID: 9362211
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:08
from this article in yahoo...

Known as a conservative and a strict constructionist in legal circles, Clement has eased fears among some abortion-rights advocates. She has stated that the Supreme Court "has clearly held that the right to privacy guaranteed by the Constitution includes the right to have an abortion" and that "the law is settled in that regard."

Still, Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, said that Clement's record raises "seriously troubling" questions about her commitment to protecting personal freedom. "Unless she was able to put those concerns to rest in Senate hearings, pro-choice Americans would oppose her nomination," Keenan said.

Her statements also are causing concern in anti-abortion circles. "We are looking to see in what context Judge Clement made those statements and do they give a window into her thinking on Roe and other decisions," said Rev. Patrick Mahoney, director of the conservative Christian Defense Coalition

While they like a lot of what they see in Clement so far, "if we do not feel that Judge Clement is the kind of justice we would be comfortable with, and we meaning the pro-family, pro-life community, we would have no problem working aggressively against her confirmation," he said.


things are just gonna get ugly when the nominee finally does come in...
 
76Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:09
If Specter is happy with this pick there is nothing there for conservatives to fight for.
 
77Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:15
The last thee justices appointed have been disasters. This pick looks like a disaster. When Renquist retires, and with Bush nominating, we can say goodbye to conservative decisions for a long long time.

The ultimate slap in the face to Bush's conservative base. Calculate what that means for the next presidential election. Say hello queen of evil, Hillary.
 
78Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:16
She has stated that the Supreme Court "has clearly held that the right to privacy guaranteed by the Constitution includes the right to have an abortion" and that "the law is settled in that regard."

Pro-lifers should not be concerned about that, IMO. I believe that indicates that as an appellate judge she was going to follow SCOTUS precedent. The law is indeed settled -- until there are 5 SCOTUS judges who feel it should be reversed, at which point it will become unsettled.

Yes it will be ugly, even though Clement is in the tier of least provocative candidates (post 64). The liberal interest groups have tens of millions to spend, and the conservative defence groups have more to counter. As somebody said recently, "it's unclear whether they raise the money to fight the wars or they fight the wars to raise the money."

Toral


 
79Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:22
I think Clement would be a good pick.

Admittedly the evidence is a little thin.

Specter is a doofus, and you can't judge a pick just by whether he likes it or not.

Clement has been vouched for by Hadley Arkes. He didn't make it clear how he knew her, but that's a great endorsement.

She was put in the list of those to be considered by the conservatives at the Office of Legal Policy. That's a lot better than being recommended by John Sununu and Warren Rudman (Souter). They will have read every word she's ever written, every speech she's ever given. I'm willing to trust them.

Toral
 
80Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:30
I heard the last two Clinton appointed were put forward by Orin Hatch of all people. Obviously he isn't the conservative people think he is.

So many faux conservatives. As the saying goes, If God had wanted us to vote he'd have given us candidates.
 
81Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:42
Hatch just told Clinton that they would be confirmable.

The problem with the more conservative choice here, the other Edith, Edith Jones, is that she said, unncessarily, in an appellate court decision that she wished SCOTUS would reconsider Roe. Susan Collins (Maine) specifically objected to her pick in a recommendation to Bush. Jones loses 3 GOPers (Chafee, Collins, Snowe), plus probably Lisa Murkowski and Specter, perhaps more Republicans. That leaves it very unlikely a Dem filibuster could be broken.

Conservatives are in a mood to go to war (Jones), and maybe we should. But Clement is an acceptable alternative.

Perhaps I'm just relieved because I had this sinking feeling not too long ago that Bush was going to execute a total betrayal, Gonzales or one of a bunch of "moderate" names that were suddenly being floated.

Toral

 
82Tree
ID: 9362211
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 12:52
So many faux conservatives.

beginning with Bush? this current crop of Conservatives, from Bush to Frist to DeLay and the rest of the American Taliban, are disgraces to their own political party, and have turned their backs on the traditions of the Republicans.
 
83Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 13:30
Here we go! The leftist American Constitution Society, designed to be a left-wing equivalent of the Federalist society tosses a few salvos at Judge Clement. (BTW McFarland, mentioned there, was a pro-criminal defendants' rights decision -- maybe we can get Seattle Zen on side?)

Another leftist critique. Note that this one also reads a lot into Hadley Arkes' endorsement (one of the pro-life movement's top intellectuals) mentioned above.

Toral
 
84bibA
Sustainer
ID: 261028117
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 14:05
"a pro-criminal defendants' rights decision"?

Please, tell me it isn't so, not here in the good ol US of A. If we allow defendants rights, where will it all stop? Soon, they'll be referring to us as Socialists or Canadians or something, MY GOD!
 
85Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 14:24
I'm not sure if my irony was appreciated by bibA or not -- The SZ reference should have clinched it, I thot, but Joy Clement (she goes by "Joy")'s dissent in the case was a pro-criminal-rights opinion It would have (she lost) declined to apply a federal statute against a convenience-store robbery; she rejected the claim that the fact that the activities of convenience stores, in the aggregate, could affect interstate commerce, allowed the severer penalties of the (national) Hobbs Act to be applied against the (convicted) criminal defendant.

Toral
 
86biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 14:39
If Baldwin doesn't think Joy is conservative, I think it means Baldwin isn't.

What sort of opinions would you like to see that are more conservative than the examples in 83, Baldwin? Wingnuttery would be the the only thing that would satisfy?
 
87Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 14:54
Bait-and-switch rumours.

If it's Jones (still possible), that means that the President wants a fight.

Toral
 
88Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 14:56
BTW I hope all you bettors out there are cashing in today, having relied on post 56 (2 weeks ago, when both were at long odds.)

Toral
 
89Mark L
ID: 27653110
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 15:02
I don't know much about Clement, but the "other leftist critique" (Toral 83) of her decision in Avondale v. Davis was twaddle. Short version: the "leftist critique" blogger ripped Clement for reversing a $15,000 attorneys fee award by an administrative law judge in favor of a partially-successful workers' compensation claimant, on the grounds that Clement had held (for the court of appeals panel) that "attorneys fees could be cut as 'excessive' where court awards are low"; the blogger argued that this approach by Clement ignored the "reality" that since small recoveries under labor laws are the norm, allowing this basis for reducing fee awards would make it too hard for employees with valid claims to find lawyers, and would give employers perverse incentives to overlitigate and drive up legal costs that plaintiffs' counsel knew would - at least under the evil "Clement standard" - not be recoverable.

The problem with the blogger's analysis (and I am hesitant to take on a graduate of the mighty Yale Law School) is that it has nothing to do with the actual decision in question or with the statute that Clement was interpreting. The statute REQUIRED the ALJ to base any fee award "solely upon the difference between the amount awarded [to the employee by the ALJ in the contested proceeding] and the amount tendered or paid [by the employer in advance of the proceeding]." At least as far as I could tell from reading the appellate decision by Clement, the ALJ's written opinion in this case did not reference this statutory requirement, let alone provide a reasoned application of it to the facts in the case. Clement's opinion quite sensibly vacated an administrative appellate decision affirming the ALJ's fee award and remanded the case back down to the ALJ for further proceedings "consistent with this opinion" -- standard legalese for "this time please read the statute, apply it, and make that evident in your decision." She also noted that it might be difficult to justify a $15,000 fee award when the difference between the employer's offer and the ALJ award was less than $800 -- but if that's what the blogger was complaining about, he needs to bitch to Congress, not to Clement, because the text of the statute here isn't even remotely ambiguous.

If this is indicative of what this guy has, it's weak.
 
90Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 17:27
Sell Clement! on the futures market.

It's not her!

Buy Brown!

If it's Myers (Bush's Chief of Staff) he has betrayed us.

Toral
 
91Tree
ID: 9362211
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 17:37
so, why is Bush making this announcement in primetime? IIRC, these things, no matter how important, are usually done during the day.

methinks it's to get maximum news coverage, and thusly, overshadow the problems with Karl Rove.
 
92Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 17:48
Tree, you might be right. There has been a lot of buzz that the announcement should be done soon, to take heat off the Rove issue.

If that is the case, I object strongly. Well, I don't object to advancing the announcment to take the heat off the Rove issue, but I object strongly if the Rove stuff caused him to hurry his pick. Thge next SCOTUS appointment is more important than Rove. It's even more important than George W. Bush.

I also suspect the announcement is being made after the Senate closes so that Teddy Kennedy can't launch one of his patented smear jobs from the floor of the Senate. By 9 P.M., they figure Teddy will be passed out drunk (although perhaps I am not the person to say that.)

Toral
 
93Tree
ID: 406351918
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 19:59
Bush Nominates Federal Judge Roberts
 
94Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:01
He surprised me, and all conservatives I know.

He will be confirmed without filbuster, after a brutal bloody fight.

Toral

 
95Tree
ID: 406351918
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:03
it spooks me out that this entry is up within minutes of the nomination...
 
96Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:08
John Roberts is the greatest nominee in the history of the world. His virtues are those of Holmes, Cardozo, Brandeis, Frankfurter, and Bork multiplied to the 9th degree.

The Senate should hold hearings Thursday morning and confirm him Thursday afternoon.

Of course some Communists and traitors will try to obstruct this nomination, but they should be ignored.

Toral
 
97Tree
ID: 406351918
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:08
starting at the bar a bit early tonight, eh toral?
 
98Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:14
Getting ready for the brutal bloody fight, Tree. It will be no holds barred.

Toral
 
99biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:17
Despite his horrendous opinion on the rights of women to control the destiny of their own bodies, he's a Buffalonian, so he can't be all bad.

I still cheer for OJ in the old films, so I am perhaps a teensy bit biased.

Harassing Toral about his booze is like Baldwin bringing up Bill Clinton's infidelities. It gets old. Plus a few sips of rye occasionally makes Toral pretty entertaining. Of course, a few large gulps...
 
100Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:17
BTW I am no longer (as I have been) an objective commentator. This is the war (see post 64; Bush chose a mid-level-confrontation guy, but one who will have the support of every conservative) that many have been waiting for for 18 years.

God bless you and preserve you in it, tree, and may your soul be saved.

Toral
 
101Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:22
You honestly think I will like him better than Bork? I am afraid to get my hopes anywhere near that high.
 
102Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:23
Is he better than Sandra "Micromanage" O'Connor? Looks like it.

Says he'll uphold Ro v Wade precedent, and will probably have to say that again in 50 different ways. But a solid single up the middle for Bush.

Er, a solid single to Right I mean.
 
103Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:24
No one is remotely as good as Bork, or ever has been. But Judge Bork is not 68 years old, as said above, but 78 years old. We have to move on.

Toral
 
104Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:26
pd Says he'll uphold Ro v Wade precedent

You're getting ahead of me. I don't have a TV present, Did he say that today? If so, he'll have to be killed.

Toral
 
105biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:30
Tell it to Eric Rudolph; he won't be able to complete the job anymore.

Don't tell it to Boldwin. He's been kinda equivical about whether he could be wielded as "God's Hand."
 
106Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:31
Conservative blogs generally supportive. Roberts viewed as a smart guy who has a conservative judicial philosophy, but no-one's fool. Respected by at least some Democrats. Superb SCOTUS advocate. And -- looks nice. Make no mistake, that can make a difference in the hearings.

Toral
 
107biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:32
We continue to believe that Roe was wrongly decided and should be overruled. As more fully explained in our briefs, filed as amicus curiae, in Hodgson v. Minnesota, 110 S. Ct. 2926 (1990); Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, 109 S. Ct. 3040 (1989); Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 476 U.S. 747 (1986); and City of Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. 416 (1983), the Court's conclusions in Roe that there is a fundamental right to an abortion and that government has no compelling interest in protecting prenatal human life throughout pregnancy find no support in the text, structure, or history of the Constitution."
 
108Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:33
Toral, read Tree's link. Said so in his fed appeals confirmation hearing.
 
109Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:34
That was a joke, bili.

Zero tolerance for dumb liberals (or even smart radicals) in this war. ZERO tolerance -- do you hear me? ;)

You have been warned; govern yourself accordingly.

Toral
 
110Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:36
Re:#105

Only in spiritual warfare, Bili
because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. 13 On this account take up the complete suit of armor from God, that YOU may be able to resist in the wicked day
 
111Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 20:43
bili 107 quote is an argument Roberts made on behalf of the Administration. It does not necessarily reflect Roberts' personal beliefs about Roe.

I can't find anything in the link pd points me to about Roberts. But as I noted above (78) appellate judges saying they will go by Roe are just doing their duty, as inferior judges. Get to SCOTUS, they can act on their own juggments about the law.

Quick summation: Roberts almost certainly believes that Roe was farcically reasoned and wrongly decided at the time. Whether he would vote to reverse it now depends on his view of the weight of precedent (and maybe how much guts he has). No one can predict this.

Toral

 
112Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:04
bili Roberts was born in Buffalo. I didn't know that. What more do you want?
 
113Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:12
Looks like as solid a choice as one could expect from Bush. Enough independence that every decision won't automatically begin 3-0 - Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, hopefully.
 
114Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:12
Good presentation. I would have liked to see Roberts, on the way out, grab his wife Jane and kiss her like she's never been kissed before. But perhaps I'm a romantic.

Toral
 
115Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:16
Chuck Schumer is making nasty comments. No surprise. He's a really vicious nasty man.

Tortal
 
116Tree
ID: 406351918
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:17
i feel like this is a DVD with some drunken commentary from the peanut gallery. it's kinda fun - you're right bili!
 
117Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:28
Thank you Tree.

I have the pleasure of listening to that evil old bastard, Pat Leahy, on C-Span. Leahy, who won the competition on a Hill magazine for the nastiest man in the Senate, is well recommended for grilling Judge Bork on his lack of pro-bono work in 1987. Judge Bork was too polite to explain that her had only left Yale Law School to go to private practice because his first wife was dying of a particularly slow and painful cancer, and he had to go to private practice to pay her medical bills.

Anyway, it's pleasant to know, from listening to him, that Leahy is clearly senile, in the early stages of Alzheimer's. God will that no one treats Leahy like he has treated other people.

Toral

 
118Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:41
Re 111: From the link:

In his defense, Roberts told senators during his 2003 confirmation hearing that he would be guided by legal precedent. "Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land. ... There is nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent."
 
119Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:50
Right. As an appellate judge he must be guided by SCOTUS precedent. No question about that.

Toral
 
120Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 21:54
To make it clearer, before Brown, Plessy v. Ferguson was the settled law of the land.


In 1954, Plessy suddenly became no longer the settled law of the land, 9-0.

Toral
 
121Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:02
I see nothing in his statements which says he's not going to be guided by precedent, Toral. Though that's clearly your hope.
 
122Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:04
Massing of forces: Knights of Columbus endorse Roberts
(NEW HAVEN, CT.) - Supreme Knight Carl A. Anderson, head of the 1.7 million member Knights of Columbus, this evening called Judge John Roberts "a first rate choice for the United States Supreme Court." President Bush announced that he would nominate Roberts in a nationally-televised address earlier tonight.

"Judge Roberts is exactly the kind of nominee that members of both parties have described as the kind of choice the President should make," Anderson said. "He is one of the brightest legal minds in America, graduating at the top of his class at Harvard Law School, and has a well-deserved reputation for fairness, integrity and superb judicial temperament on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit."

"During his years in private practice," Anderson recalled, "he argued a case pro bono - free of charge - on behalf of some of the District's neediest welfare recipients, who were about to lose their benefits under the D.C.
Public Assistance Act. He is someone who knows and appreciates the plight of the poor, especially those who have the most difficult time getting fair and even-handed treatment in our legal system."

"Judge Roberts' experience in private practice, in the Executive Branch, and as a Judge make him exceptionally well-qualified to serve on the U.S.
Supreme Court, and we applaud President Bush for making such an excellent nomination to fill the vacancy created by Justice O'Connor's retirement,"
Anderson concluded.

The Knights of Columbus is the world's largest Catholic lay organization, with more than 1.7 million members around the world.


Toral


 
123Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:15
Anybody who thot I was buttering Roberts up in post 96 -- you ain't seen nothing yet.

Toral
 
124Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:16
I seriously doubt there's going to be the bloody war Toral predicted(hoped for?).
This might be a a pretty smooth confirmation.
The Democrats would need some decent ammo for obstruction, and I don't see it.
 
125Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:19
Anybody who thot I was buttering Roberts up in post 96 -- you ain't seen nothing yet.

Who remembered the first part after the commie/traitor closing?

 
126Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:23
You can't tell when I'm joking yet? Is that my fault?

Roberts will be confirmed, but it will be bloody. The Dem interest groups will advertise against Roberts, and urge senators to vote against Roberts, and he will be given a rough ride by the Dems.

The pro-choice groups will oppose his confirmation. You know how much money they have?

Toral



 
127Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:30
pv 124 The Democrats would need some decent ammo for obstruction, and I don't see it.

Have more faith in your party! By this weekend, your interest groups will have portrayed Roberts as a monster who wants to outlaw all abortions, force employees to work in situations where it is clear they will die, and put all blacks back into slavery.

Joke? No. It worked against Judge Bork and they will try again.

Toral
 
128Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:40
your party
your interest groups


Uh, I don't have a party or interest groups, although I do contribute to the Sierra Club, Audobon Society and SOC(save our canyons). Probably not the ones you were thinking of.
 
129Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 22:59
Schumer is way nastier than Leahy. I can't think of any competition Chuck has. He makes Toricelli look like a pussycat.
 
130Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 23:06
But you have to give Leahy credit for career nastiness. Sure, Schumer has exploded on the scene with career seasons for nastiness and viciousness -- but can he sustain it over 20 years, like Leahy has done?

Toral
 
131Stuck in the 60s
Dude
ID: 274132811
Tue, Jul 19, 2005, 23:10
Not sure when it happened, but somewhere along the line, the Senate confused "advise and consent" with "approve of."

I can't stand Bush. He is offensive to most things I believe in. But as President he ought to be able to put up his nominee. If that person has a clean criminal record, he / she ought to be confirmed. Since there's no requirement that the nominee even be a lawyer (much less a judge), this process should not take a long period of time.

When the Dems control Congress, they can do the same thing. Besides, judges like Souter and even O'Connor turned out to be the last thing their patrons ever expected. So let's get on with it.

Don
 
132Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 00:19
The left fires:
he "has a record of hostility to the rights of minorities and women. He has also taken controversial positions in favor of weakening the separation of church and state and limiting the permissible role of the federal courts in protecting the environment.,.. This is a real in-your-face selection by the president, and the Dems' response remains to be seen. Stalwart senators like Edward Kennedy, Chuck Schumer and Dick Durbin can be expected to respond in kind...


Fire away! Conservatives have raised over $200 million for this fight. We expect every single lie to be answered.

Every lying TV ad should be met by 3 ads.

Toral
 
133Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 00:46
..of even more lies.
 
134Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 00:49
No. There will be nothing but truth in those ads.

You watch and see.

Toral
 
135Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 00:51
Nothing but truth? And when there isn't, what will you pay me?
 
136biliruben
ID: 531202411
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:01
Yeah. Mentioned the Buffalo connection while defending your wee fondness for drink (which I am almost required to share, as a Buffalonian).

It's going to be hard to attack a native son... but perhaps I can work myself up. ;)
 
137Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:03
Actually, bili, you memory is bad.

I'm from Fort Erie.

Toral
 
138Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:07
If I had American citizenship, I probably would have absconded from this Canuckistan years ago. Well, no. It's only in the last few years that I gave up on this country. But my family and friends are here...

Toral
 
139Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:13
John Roberts learned from his upbringing hard-working Buffalo values. Respect for the law, care for the community, and a real appreciatioin of people, as they are.

Now some folks don't think that's good enuf. They don't think that a Buffalo upbringing is good enuf for a justice in Warshington.

Write your senators today! Tell them there's nothing to be ashamed of in Buffalo!

Toral
 
140Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:26
Except for the Bills.
 
141Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:42
Filibuster the no good motherfu&ker. Counter that with 300 ads if you want.

No way.
 
142Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:45
Why, SZ?

Toral
 
143Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:49
Linda Greenhouse has a basically pro-Roberts article in the NYT.

That's good for Roberts...but should conservatives be pleased?

Toral
 
144Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 01:57
Roberts should win confirmation without too much trouble, which will just anger hardcore conservatives angry that Bush "missed a chance" to nominate someone like themselves. Not realizing, of course, that Bush either could not or would not nominate a Bork-like judge.

Bush is more conservative than his dad by a bunch, but a guy who appoints Powell and Whitman to be in his first cabinet is more moderate than most Republicans would admit.

Besides which, Bush's numbers are going down, he's tied up in a real problem with Leak-gate dragging out longer than anticipated, and the last few issues he's floated (Social Security, etc) haven't taken off. Some have sunk. And the Senate, embarrased over the Veterans Administration huge deficit (anticipated by members of their own party who were removed from their positions for saying so at the time) aren't exactly riding high.

All that said, Roberts is more of a moderate to moderate-conservative in the O'Connor pre-SCOTUS days. Democratic politicians will realize this soon even if leftist organizations do their usual spasms of indignation to any Bush appointee.
 
145Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 02:09
I believe all mainstream conservatives will be 100% behind Judge Roberts.
Not realizing, of course, that Bush either could not or would not nominate a Bork-like judge
There are no Bork-like judges to nominate. I know you hate him, pd, but he was one of a kind. Many current judges/thinkers admire him, but I don't think any would claim to be his equal. He has inspired the conservative legal movement. Just read the stories of conservative lawyers, and you will see, over and over again, "I saw what happened to Judge Bork. I vowed that insofar as it was in my power, it would never happen again."

How many people are icons, 18 years after they have been defeated? It's possible, maybe likely, that Judge Bork's defeat, and the way it happened, did more for sensible jurisprudence than his confirmation would have. I think Divine Providence was at work here.

Toral
 
146Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 02:15
Well, that's all fine and good, but if there are no more truly conservative judges around what are you getting all worked up about?

Or, is your point that there are no more Nixon-apologists around behind which "true" conservatives can rally?

Or that what happened with Bork is more important because it happened to a conservative judge, and the subsequent conservative slamming of Clinton appointees is just fine because "never again" meant "never against a conservative judge again?"

I know you probably give silent kissy noises every time you see Bork's name (even if you don't realize it) but certainly my point in 144, that Bush would never nominate a truly through-and-through conservative judge is not even a possibility is true?

Or are you already consoling yourself with having to settle?

Hmmmm. WWBD? (What Would Bork Do?)
 
147Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 02:26
I'm not sure what you're getting at, pd, Bork wasn't a "Nixon apologist".

As for conservative slamming of Clinton appointtees, Ginsburg and Breyer were confirmed overwhelmingly.

I don't give silent kissy noises every time I see Bork's name. I give loud cheers.

Roberts is in the middle range of conservative options. It is, from the constitutionalist view, a good choice. Easier to sell to conservatives because the links convinced us that Bush was going to make a "diversity" choice. A very solid pick.

Toral


 
148nerveclinic
ID: 3454230
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 02:42

Toral: Superb SCOTUS advocate. And -- looks nice.

Toral I had no idea you were the kind of guy who sized other men up.

Is that only when you're drinking?

 
149Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 02:57
It's a practical matter when dealing with confirmation, nerve. Judge Bork suffered because he was overweight and had a funny beard. Ideally these things shouldn't matter (IMO), but you're dealing with an insubstantial liberal media and a culture that likes to look at nice bodies, male or female.

Earlier in the day, when Joy Clement was being pimped as the nominee, everyone on conservative blogs noted that she looked extremely attractive in her picture.

This is a No-Tolerance zone now. The problem with confirming a nominee is that all the ad money goes to convince the marginal electorate -- i.e., fools. People like you, or even stranger, if any such exist. It's hard to know what persuades them. Basically, you're looking at sub-rational motivations. Hard to judge. Have to rely on the ad people.
----------------------------

As for guessing men's attractiveness -- I'm not good at it. Prob because I don't care. Women I know get googleyed over somebody and I just don't see it.

Toral
 
150nerveclinic
ID: 3454230
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 03:22


Women I know get googleyed over somebody and I just don't see it.

I guess you only get googly eyed over men who might overturn Roe V Wade... 8-)

 
151Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 03:51
Well, I'll take that as a joke and that's fine. You have hit on a point. Roberts is a bit much of a pretty-boy for me. I suspect he's a guy who life has just gone a bit too easy for. And perhaps Bush bonded with him because he also is a guy who has just found life a bit too easy. As for looks, I think Michael McConnell, who would be the best choice, suffers because he looks a bit strange and sometimes doesn't cut his hair, looks like a 1961 Beatle-follower. That might have hurt him with Bush.

However, we all play the cards we're dealt...If the fact that John Roberts is handsome (as far as I can tell) helps his support with women, especially single women...so be it. We've been screwed at SCOTUS so long -- we'll take any advantage. We'll need all of them to beat the liberal machine.

Toral
 
152Tree
ID: 406351918
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 07:48
beards and bellies are so much sexier than some skinny pretty boy. but hey, apparently conservatives aren't that interested in substance anyway, but whether their candidate is comfy with denying equality, civil rights, and personal freedoms.
 
153biliruben
ID: 531202411
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 09:36
Re 137: My memory is bad, but I did remember you weren't a citizen. I was referring to The Dred Pirate as a native son. Fort Erie is close enough to share Buffalo's propensity for spirits and suicidally tasty grub.

All Buffalonians are sexy - through beer goggles.
 
154Tree
ID: 9362211
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 10:40
All Buffalonians are sexy - through beer goggles.

indeed.

 
155Myboyjack
ID: 27651610
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 10:47
I think that would be a good opening line for Roberts at the confirmation hearing, bili:

I am the Dwed Piwate Woberts! I have come for your souls - then light his holocaust cloak on fire and growl. He'd be a shoe in.


Pretty shrewd political move by Bush. Nominate an well respected SCOTUS litgator that is acknowledged by both sides to be very well qualified and won't have any problem being consented to by the Senate , but still has enough conservative bona fides to keep the Right fighting for him, as his first nominee. Let the hate groups like PFTAW and NARAL spend their cash reserves making themselves look extremist, then go for broke with the next nominee.
 
156Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:04
Only three senators voted against Roberts the last time he came up for a vote [in committee I take it], Kennedy, Schummer and Durbin if I remember what I heard on the radio.

Then the vote of the full body was unanimous. So now we are going to hear from the media that Kennedy, Schummer and Durbin speak for the mainstream. It would be funny if the media didn't give that ludicrous idea so much respect.
 
157Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:11
I heard Schummer say either the next justice will be making law, or he said it is the job of the next justice to make law.

He can't be so stupid as to actually think the legitimate constitutionally stipulated job of the court is legislative, so that makes him a devious liar in my book.
 
158biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:12
He he. Yeah, that would be sweet. We need more comedy (of the obvious, not sad, sort) in congress.

Enough about Harvard this and harvard that. The most important thing is where did he go to high school? If it's Williamsville, I may have to start sending checks to NARAL.
 
159biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:19
Ughhh. Private boarding school. Pampered twit.
 
160biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:25
Roberts encountered other things at Harvard for the first time, he has said, including students who made fun of the fact that he hailed from Indiana.

Poor baby.

Alright. that's it. He doesn't even consider himself a Buffalonian. Probably a sorry Colts fan or some pansy-ass Notre Dame lover. The bloom is officially off the rose.
 
161biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:33
Several years ago, for instance, Luttig and Roberts went public with a humorous letter exchange. On his formal stationery, Luttig, as a joke, applied for a first-year associate's job at Roberts' law firm, because the pay was higher than that of a federal judge. Roberts, who then was still an appellate lawyer, turned Luttig down, writing that first-year associates do not get to wear black robes, have three law clerks or get life tenure.

Wooohooo! I need to wipe away the tears from laughing so hard. That's a knee-slapper, I tell you. He's a real card.
 
162biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:51
Raggedy Ann doesn't like him, so perhaps he's not all bad.
 
163biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 11:59
Though she doesn't like him for similar reasons to the issues I have with him. Character. Anyone who hides his Buffalo heritage has something smarmy about him. She claims he has never made a contraversial statement in his life. I dunno, but with his upbringing I wouldn't be surprised.
 
164Razor
ID: 36241218
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:03
I heard Schummer say either the next justice will be making law, or he said it is the job of the next justice to make law.

He didn't say that at all. He said that while circuit court judges are bound to the Supreme Court's precedents, the Supreme Court has the power to set precedent when interpreting the law and thus, appointees to each court should be held to different standards. He said he hoped that Roberts would leave the actual lawmaking up to the legislators.
 
165biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:07
Apparently Sandra Day things the pick is "Fabulous" in an interview with Pres. Polk's paper, though I can't connect.
 
166biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:10
Though she does wish he didn't have testicles. She may in a sense have her wish.
 
167biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:11
Finally got in.
 
168Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:14
I could have sworn I read in the USA Today this morning that he was teaching in England. If he was teaching law in England presumably he was teaching international law. This would explain how so many people I strongly disagree with think he is wonderful. It would explain why a bonesman would select him.
 
169biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:18
Here we go. Dred Pirate Roberts. Skull and Bones. You see?!?! You see!!!

I haven't read anything about England in the two bios I read.
 
170Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:26
This little nugget is buried just as deep as they could find a way to do it.
Bush took a list of 11 prospects to Europe this month and interviewed five finalists on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Bush and Roberts met for an hour on Friday after Roberts returned from London, where he was teaching - Appears below the fold, front page next to last column, lead story.
So again I raise the issue, what was he teaching and why was he teaching it in London?
 
171Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:32
Nice catch, Baldwin. I read that last night, but it didn't make an impression. What was he teaching in London?
 
172Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:33
I remind you that leaning on damn international law instead of the constitution is the direct reason we now have the execrable Kelo decision.
 
173biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:34
Perhaps, just perhaps... law?
 
174Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 12:35
That butter knife come in handy often, Bili? 8]
 
175biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 13:50
20K/year for high school. That's more than I paid for 4 years a college. How can a Bethlehem Steel manager afford that?

Maybe your conspiracy theories are correct!
 
176biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 13:57
He and his wife, Jane Sullivan Roberts, have two adopted children, Jack and Josie (the latter is a year older than the former). Jane used to be a vice-president of Feminists for Life, a feminist anti-abortion group.
 
177The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 14:41
I saw him and his wife and kids on TV. They look like extremists.
 
178Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 17:33
Conservative sighs of relief.
Rejoice and have faith.

Toral
 
179Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Jul 20, 2005, 17:38
The moderate Democratic view

Harry Reid's release

Judicious and non-reflexive.
 
180Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 226231714
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 06:27
Once again, from "She Who Rules All She Surveys", sums up my opinion of Roberts...

SOUTER IN ROBERTS' CLOTHING

"After pretending to consider various women and minorities for the Supreme Court these past few weeks, President Bush decided to disappoint all the groups he had just ginned up and nominate a white male.

So all we know about him for sure is that he can't dance and he probably doesn't know who Jay-Z is. Other than that, he is a blank slate. Tabula rasa. Big zippo. Nada. Oh, yeah ... We also know he's argued cases before the Supreme Court. Big deal; so has Larry Flynt's attorney.

But unfortunately, other than that that, we don't know much about John Roberts. Stealth nominees have never turned out to be a pleasant surprise for conservatives. Never. Not ever.

Since the announcement, court-watchers have been like the old Kremlinologists from Soviet days looking for clues as to what kind of justice Roberts will be.

Will he let us vote?

Does he live in a small, rough-hewn cabin in the woods of New Hampshire and avoid "womenfolk"?

Does he trust democracy? Or will he make all the important decisions for us and call them "constitutional rights"?

It means absolutely nothing that NARAL and Planned Parenthood attack him: They also attacked Sandra Day O'Connor, Anthony Kennedy and David Hackett Souter.

The only way a Supreme Court nominee could win the approval of NARAL and Planned Parenthood would be to actually perform an abortion during his confirmation hearing, live, on camera, and preferably a partial-birth one.

It means nothing that Roberts wrote briefs arguing for the repeal of Roe v. Wade when he worked for Republican administrations. He was arguing on behalf of his client, the United States of America. Roberts has specifically disassociated himself from those cases, dropping a footnote to a 1994 law review article that said:

"In the interest of full disclosure, the author would like to point out that as Deputy Solicitor General for a portion of the 1992-'93 term, he was involved in many of the cases discussed below. In the interest of even fuller disclosure, he would also like to point out that his views as a commentator on those cases do not necessarily reflect his views as an advocate for his former client, the United States."

This would have been the legal equivalent, after O.J.'s acquittal, of Johnnie Cochran saying: "Hey, I never said the guy was innocent. I was just doing my job."

And it makes no difference that conservatives in the White House are assuring us Roberts can be trusted. We got the exact same assurances from officials working for the last president Bush about David Hackett Souter.

I believe their exact words were, "Read our lips; Souter's a reliable conservative."

From the theater of the absurd category, the Republican National Committee's "talking points" on Roberts provide this little tidbit:

"In the 1995 case of Barry v. Little, Judge Roberts argued — free of charge — before the D.C. Court of Appeals on behalf of a class of the neediest welfare recipients, challenging a termination of benefits under the District's Public Assistance Act of 1982."

I'm glad to hear the man has a steady work record, but how did this make it to the top of his resume?

Bill Clinton goes around bragging that he passed welfare reform, which was, admittedly, the one public policy success of his entire administration (passed by the Republican Congress). But now apparently Republicans want to pretend we're the party of welfare queens! Soon the RNC will be boasting that Republicans want to raise your taxes and surrender in the war on terrorism, too.

Finally, let's ponder the fact that Roberts has gone through 50 years on this planet without ever saying anything controversial. That's just unnatural.

By contrast, I held out for three months, tops, before dropping my first rhetorical bombshell, which I think was about Goldwater.

It's especially unnatural for someone who is smart, and there's no question but that Roberts is smart.

If a smart and accomplished person goes this long without expressing an opinion, he'd better be pursuing the Miss America title.

Apparently, Roberts decided early on that he wanted to be on the Supreme Court and that the way to do that was not to express a personal opinion on anything to anybody ever. It's as if he is from some space alien sleeper cell. Maybe the space aliens are trying to help us, but I wish we knew that.

If the Senate were in Democrat hands, Roberts would be perfect. But why on earth would Bush waste a nomination on a person who is a complete blank slate when we have a majority in the Senate!

We also have a majority in the House, state legislatures, state governorships, and have won five of the last seven presidential elections — seven of the last 10!

We're the Harlem Globetrotters now — why do we have to play the Washington Generals every week?

Conservatism is sweeping the nation, we have a fully functioning alternative media, we're ticked off and ready to avenge Robert Bork ... and Bush nominates a Rorschach blot.

Even as they are losing voters, Democrats don't hesitate to nominate reliable left-wing lunatics like Ruth Bader Ginsburg to lifetime tenure on the high court. And the vast majority of Americans loathe her views.

As I've said before, if a majority of Americans agreed with liberals on abortion, gay marriage, pornography, criminals' rights and property rights — liberals wouldn't need the Supreme Court to give them everything they want through invented "constitutional" rights invisible to everyone but People for the American Way. It's always good to remind voters that Democrats are the party of abortion, sodomy and atheism, and nothing presents an opportunity to do so like a Supreme Court nomination.

The Democrats' own polls showed voters are no longer fooled by claims that the Democrats are trying to block "judges who would roll back civil rights." Borking is over.

And Bush responds by nominating a candidate who will allow Democrats to avoid fighting on their weakest ground — substance. He has given us a Supreme Court nomination that will placate no liberals and should please no conservatives.

Maybe Roberts will contravene the sordid history of "stealth nominees" and be the Scalia or Thomas that Bush promised us when he was asking for our votes. Or maybe he won't. The Supreme Court shouldn't be a game of Russian roulette."
 
181Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 09:53
Coulter doesn't like him? I like him better already. And that is no satire.
 
182Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 10:18
 
183Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 18:08
Supossedly TV ads are up on both sides? Youse see any ads?

The key states ad-wise should be places like Arkansas, Louisiana, Colorado, Florida, maybe West Virginia -- states whose Dems' senators' decisions whether to filibuster are not are important.

Toral
 
184Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 226231714
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 18:45
Here's where I'm critical of Bush so some of you may want to copy and paste for entertainment reasons.

I didn't have time to comment on this because I was leaving for work.

I can't believe he took the cowards way out. I was really hoping for a Luttig-type judge. Ideally, I would've liked someone who has a PROVEN history of conservative strict constitutionalist enforcement of the law. I do not want to be "O'Connered" again so I would've preferred a staunchly proven nominee.

A three year(?) tenured federal judge just doesn't cut it for me.

I want someone who will be right-wing on illegal immigration and terrorism. Mr. Roberts just hasn't been in office long enough to prove to me that he won't do an about-face on certain topics ten years from now when he is only 60 and will still have probably 25+ years left on the bench factoring in an increase in human lifespan.

I do like his stance on Roe. He appears to be morally against it, but he will not overturn it. That is what I was looking for on that issue.

We hold a majority in every governmental office I can think of and Bush takes the safe route? I just don't understand it. If we ever had a chance to dig in our heels and fight for a nominee of our choosing, now is the time. With Rehnquists(cs) impending exit, I just don't have confidence in Bush that he will nominate a Chief Justice that will maintain a long term and secure conservative edge over the court.

I would not be surprised if the Rove rhetoric dies down because Bush selected someone that won't get the left's panties in a bunch and that was part of some closed doors deal.
 
185Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 18:59
CCP:

1) I don't believe Bush took the coward's way out. Gonzales would have been the coward's wany out. Or Joy Clement.

2) It's not clear that Luttig is more conservative than Roberts. 6 of one, half dozen or the other.

3) I personally would like to see "right-wing" results on illegal immigration and terrorism -- but it is a mistake to look for a judge who will guarantee certain results -- on anything. That's playing on the liberals' field, and if conservatives play there, we will lose every time. What we need is people who will respect
the Constitution and the laws, as opposed to enacting their values with a flimsy gown of wording over them.

4) What happens when Rehnquist leaves is another issue. But as I have noted, Bush has never betrayed conservatives before. Despite many doubts, including mine, he didn't this time (see my links above). He has shown himself deserving of conservative trust.

Toral



 
186Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 19:12
Bush has never betrayed conservatives before. - Toral

Wow, let that soak in. CAFTA, government spending explosion, supporting liberal RINO's over genuine conservatives in primary fights...oh that was rich, that was just off the top of my head. Wait wait, I'm just gettin started.
 
187Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 19:16
It's a perfect set-up! Annie and Boldy and folks pretend to be against Roberts to assuage leftists!

Well done, guyz ;)

Toral
 
188Boldwin
ID: 47611911
Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 19:39
What are his positions re international vs constitutional law?
 
189Tree
ID: 36102422
Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 07:06
White House Won't Show All Roberts Papers

Deja vu all over again...
 
190hoops boy
ID: 226162110
Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 10:49
Toral 187: Thats exactly what I was thinking. The best way to counter the left saying that he is too conservative is to get the extreme right to complain he is too liberal. It wouldn't surprise me if the right figured this out, it's just a question of if there really is a vast right wing conspiracy that could pull something like that off.
 
191Tree
ID: 9362211
Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 11:21
Roberts Declines to Explain Group Listing

while i don't see this sort of stuff being a "deal-breaker", it's a little disconcerting, and a lot too common, that this administration continues to be less than forthcoming, open, and honest.
 
192Myboyjack
ID: 27651610
Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 12:17
Aside from very bored reporters - who cares if John Roberts was or was not a member of the local chapter of the The Federalist Society in 1997?

The only "papers" that the White House is declining to release are those to which attorney/client privilege would attach - in 1982-1986. That's always been the case. What's the issue - except for those attempting to score trivial scandal points.
 
193Toral
ID: 53422511
Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 12:53
The steering committee Roberts was on didn't do much steering or anything else:
Roberts is one of 19 steering committee members listed in the directory, which was provided to The Post by Alfred F. Ross, president of the Institute for Democracy Studies in New York, a liberal group that has published reports critical of the society....
Federalist Society Executive Vice President Leonard A. Leo said that either he or another official of the organization recruited Roberts for the committee. Roberts's task was to serve "as a point of contact within the firm to let people know what is going on" with the organization. "It doesn't meet, it doesn't do a whole lot. The only thing we expect of them is to make sure people in the firm know about us," Leo said.

Membership in the sense of paying dues was not required as a condition of inclusion in a listing of the society's leadership, Leo said. He declined to say whether Roberts had ever paid dues, citing a policy of keeping membership information confidential.

Whelan, who has been a member of the Federalist Society but said he had no recollection of his own membership on the steering committee, said the society is tolerant of those who come to its meetings or serve on committees without paying dues.

"John Roberts probably realized pretty quickly he could take part in activities he wanted to" without being current on his dues, Whelan said.
Toral


 
194Myboyjack
ID: 27651610
Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 13:01
"John Roberts probably realized pretty quickly he could take part in activities he wanted to" without being current on his dues, Whelan said.

Ahh..now I see the point of this inquiry. He's a mooch.
 
195Mark L
ID: 4672111
Mon, Jul 25, 2005, 14:47
I bet he won't chip in for Krispy Kremes in the Supreme Court lunchroom.
 
197Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 06:35
Roberts was in London teaching international trade laws. It appears he is an expert in how America was made to shoehorn into GATT and then it's expanded WTO.

I am not sure how to interpret this as at his level he would need to be such an expert. It remains to be seen what his personal opinion is of whether the USA should be constrained to conform to international law and how broadly and enthusiastically he embraces the notion.

I don't find this development encouraging however.
 
198Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 11:14
WTO was along long before GATT. And there have been some trade developments which have benefited the US, despite the gloom-and-doom crowd.

In a vacuum of just this point, I'd much rather have a Roberts (who knows about international law and their place in the scheme of things) than a Ginsberg (who seems to believe that international law holds sway when deciding domestic cases).
 
199Mark L
ID: 306512515
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 11:18
I would personally use this rule of thumb regarding the role of international law in Supreme Court decisions: if you find yourself in a situation where you are required to consult international law because there is no constitutional text, or even Supreme Court precedent, on point, then you have encountered an issue that does not present a genuine constitutional question.
 
200Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 17:18
History lesson for PD:
The WTO's predecessor, the GATT, was established on... link
Of course he could have saved himself the shame and embarrassment by learning from the other history lesson where Baldwin is always proved right.
 
201Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 18:08
Baldwin, the last rounds of GATT (which we signed onto, which forms the basis for your problems with it) were started with the Uraguary round. (I haven't looked this up--I don't need to). They started talking about this in the late 70s and the actual talks began in the early 80s.

I don't think you have any objections to what GATT did before the last round or two. Maybe you do and simply haven't verbalized it (which would be the first time, IMO). It's only the last round or two which has dovetailed into your world government paranoia.

That hasn't stopped you from benefitting from the success of the earlier rounds, however. Despite your own protectionist tendencies you (and the rest of this country) have benefited from lowered tarrifs, high trade volume, and wider consumer choices.
 
202Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 18:13
Pfft...much more dignified to just graciously admit you were wrong.
 
203Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 18:21
I don't think you have any objections to what GATT did... - PD

All such international limitations and cedings of sovereignty are but threads meant to tie Gulliver down. In this case nation states in general.

BTW it does the USA no good being a hyperpower if they are also so idiotic as to volunteer to be tied down on the beach powerless.
 
204Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Jul 28, 2005, 22:31
It also does the USA no good being a hyperpower by holding down other countries and by throwing being hyper protectionist.

It's not a sign of ceded sovereignty to agreed to international trade accords. It's a sign that trade needs to flow across national barriers with as few unnatural barriers as possible in order for nations to benefit.

pd

PS: As for being "wrong" I honestly admit that I don't think you have any problems with the early years of the GATT accords, but only the last round (or so), in which you joined your anarchist and far-left brethren.
 
205Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 04:38
Weak, really weak, your statement, 'WTO was along long before GATT' was just factually wrong and trying to paper it over with 'yeah but the WTO came along long before GATT became disagreeable' is just silly backfilling.

GATT and WTO were all of a piece and they were always carrot and hidden stick. The free trade was always just the frosting to sell becoming afixed to the spider web to the public.
 
206Madman
ID: 43410119
Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 08:51
BTW it does the USA no good being a hyperpower if they are also so idiotic as to volunteer to be tied down on the beach powerless.

The Congress surely has the authority to ratify treaties, and treaties by definition cede authority. We can also exit from such accords; therefore, there has been no loss of sovereignty from WTO or GATT. It is the *exercising* of our sovereignty that allows us to sign the WTO and GATT.

I think what you are objecting to is that you do not like the pre-commitment that signing such a treaty affords. I tend to agree with you on issues such as the ICC, etc. But the WTO and GATT have been a tremendous boon to our country and the world, and, I would argue, are entities that allow everyone to enrich themselves. The only thing better than being a hyperpower in a world of liliputians would be to be an even stronger hyperpower in a world interlinked by wealth-inducing trade so that other nations get wealthy along with us rather than attempt to get wealthy by attacking us (or our strategic interests around the world).
 
207Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 18:00
If only it were as simple as free trade. Wait till you see how the EU uses it to demand how we make all our products. Wait till the powerful drug companies get those bodies to outlaw alternative and un-patentable treatments.

You would be right about the provision about being able to back out if it existed in practice as well as in theory. In truth that spider web hardened to steel almost the second it was extruded. You cannot possible believe the USA could survive a threatened WTO boycott of our trade and you cannot deny that they have the legal authority to issue any trade restriction they feel like issuing. Try backing out when faced with that threat.

The power elite who fashioned that weapon knew exactly what they were doing and it was a death blow to national sovereignties. Everyone who created that thing committed an act of treason against their respective governments.
 
208Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 18:14
A WTO boycott of our trade will kill the economies of many countries. Free trade works because countries benefit from it. Bad trade practices are factually-challenged, short-term "fixes" to problems and barriers to long-term economic security of the countries involved.

To say nothing that free trade strengthens relations between countries in general, making it more difficult for polititians to cause countries to turn away from each other.

Look at the countries with the smallest amount of free trade, and you're looking at the same countries who are the least friendly to the US. Those of us who work toward free trade don't believe this is a coincidence.
 
209Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 18:32
Working toward free trade and retaining national sovereignty were not mutually exlusive goals.
 
210Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Jul 29, 2005, 20:48
Absolutely.

But when you are throwing around the terms you are about free trade, there's no question that international agreements of any sort are to be avoided in your view if they cause the US to actually have to do something it otherwise wouldn't.
 
211Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Thu, Aug 04, 2005, 06:53
Ann has been doing her homework comparing Souter's paper trail at nomination to Robert's paper trail.
In retrospect, I deeply apologize for all the nasty things I've said about the people responsible for putting David Souter on the Supreme Court. Compared to what we know about John Roberts, Souter was a dream nominee.

As New Hampshire attorney general in 1977, Souter opposed the repeal of an 1848 state law that made abortion a crime even though Roe v. Wade had made it irrelevant, predicting that if the law were repealed, New Hampshire "would become the abortion mill of the United States."

At this point the only people more opposed to abortion than Souter were still in vitro.

He filed a brief arguing that the state should not have to pay for poor women to have abortions – or, as the brief called it, "the killing of unborn children" and the "destruction of fetuses."


Also as state attorney general, Souter defended the governor's practice of lowering the flag to half-staff on Good Friday, arguing that "lowering of the flag to commemorate the death of Christ no more establishes a religious position on the part of the state or promotes a religion than the lowering of the flag for the death of Hubert Humphrey promotes the cause of the Democratic Party in New Hampshire."

Wait, seriously – who is that guy on the Supreme Court and what has he done with the real David Souter?

Souter vowed in a newspaper interview to "do everything we can to uphold the law" allowing public school children to recite the Lord's Prayer every day.

As a justice on the New Hampshire Supreme Court, Souter dismissively referred to abortion as something "necessarily permitted under Roe v. Wade" – not exactly the "fundamental right" he seems to think it is now.

In a private speech – not a brief on behalf of a client – Souter attacked affirmative action, calling it "affirmative discrimination."

Souter openly proclaimed his support for the "original intent" in interpreting the Constitution.

The fact that Souter decided – like Warren, Brennan, Blackmun, Stevens, O'Connor and Kennedy – that he would prefer to be a Philosopher King rather than a judge once he got on the court doesn't mean you never can tell with any of these guys. It means you have to find judges who wake up every morning: (1) thinking about the right answers to legal questions; and (2) chortling about how much his latest opinion will tick off the left.

We had a pretty good idea what kind of justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas were going to be. Scalia had spoken at the very first symposium of the Federalist Society as a young law professor – before it became a felony to do so – and served as faculty adviser to the group. (By contrast, Roberts is running from the Federalist Society like a 9-year-old boy running from Neverland Ranch.)

Before becoming a judge, Thomas had spent 10 years on the editorial advisery board of the Lincoln Review, a black conservative publication that ran articles comparing abortion to murder. He had given a speech praising an article by Lewis Lehrman calling abortion a "holocaust" that should be outlawed without exception. (There were even rumors, never proven, that during his law studies Thomas had actually read the Constitution.)

That's the sort of nominee we were hoping for! This wasn't a paper trail; it was more like a paper superhighway.

Compare that to the principal evidence cited to prove Roberts' conservative bona fides: As a judge, he upheld the arrest of a girl for eating French fries on a subway even though he disagreed with the policy. Well, there's a hot-button issue! (And if he's so conservative, why didn't he call them "freedom fries"?)

Oh yes, and I quote: "He loves his children."

I gather that last boast is supposed to be some sort of signal about his position on abortion. (If he were pro-choice, they would have said, "He loves all of his children who survived gestation.") I don't give a rat's behind whether the guy is pro-life, whether his wife is pro-life, whether he used to be pro-life, whether he will become pro-life, etc. That tells us how he would vote as a state legislator. He isn't being nominated for state legislator.

The relevant question for a prospective justice, and it can be asked properly either by a president or a senator, is: "What, in your view, is the legal force of a Supreme Court opinion?" If Roberts believes that Supreme Court opinions are law of some kind, all is lost.

Now comes the news that Roberts says he respects "precedent" – which is another way of saying: We can count on Roberts to uphold the court's previous unconstitutional findings.

It doesn't help to have someone who thinks that, as an original matter, the Constitution says nothing about state abortion laws if he is then going to "balance" the law against "the integrity of the institution," "public confidence in our system of justice," "the need for stability and predictability," "the sweet mystery of life," blah blah blah. The problem with establishment types is precisely that they worry about everything except the law. Just get the law right and shut up. - link
 
212Madman
ID: 43410119
Thu, Aug 04, 2005, 08:40
It's almost impossible to know what will be in Roberts' mind over the coming decades; he may not even know. However, it does appears that (a) he is an institutionalist, and (b) he is a conservative, politically.

As to the rest, it's up for grabs ... how deferential will he be to precedent? Are his inclinations more toward economic freedoms or social? Etc.

But I feel reasonably confident he is not another Souter. That pick went through blind. If you read articles of the day, there was major Bork-phobia. Today, there is Souter-phobia. And that makes a substantitive difference.

But if you want a guaranteed vote to overturn Roe, I'll agree that Roberts is not *necessarily* your man.
 
213Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 02:34
Many interesting details in the Roberts nomination process, to be sure, but not much deserving argumentation.

I have one big grief with the pro-Roberts forces, who were supposedly amassed like a deadly army with weapons.

The extremist group "NARAL Pro-Choice America" launched a viciously defamatory and lying TV ad campaign a few days ago. I believe you can watch this ad here

Now the *content* of this ad has been rebutted thoroughly, and even the Liberal Media does not appear to take it seriously. But where the frick is the $200 million that has been raised to take on these extremist groups? My understanding is that NARAL is advertising in Maine and Rhode Island. Maine -- to embarrass the 2 GOP pro-choice senators there.

Why are there not an equal number of ads running:

1) referring to NARAL (without naming it) as an extremist group that has been running ads;

2) pointing out that their thrust -- that Judge Roberts supports violence against women seeking abortion and pro-choice folks -- is a vicious, knowing, deliberate lie. As Ed Whalen has pointed out in the corner, one of the Roberts memos specifically recommends against any pardons for Operation Rescue or other anti-abortion people who have been convicted of violent crimes, saying that violence can never be justified;

3) Calling on the whole pro-choice host in the Democratic party in the Senate, from Kennedy and Schumer on down, to personally denounce the NARAL ads. Or else, they can be saddled with them.

I think the GOP is getting a bit complacent here.

Toral
 
214Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 02:48
FactCheck.org did a good job trashing the anti-Roberts ad, I thought.

 
215Toral
ID: 53422511
Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 02:52
But only sophisticated people read things like FactCheck.org. Lying ads have to me met on the same plane.

Toral
 
216Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 02:54
The anti-Roberts ad is only of use if it changes the vote of the Senators. I don't think there is any question of that happening to the Senators in question--they are way too "sophisticated" for that.

Let NARAL spend their money crashing bad ads against the rocks. Soon enough people will stop donated to a losing cause.
 
217Tree
ID: 276106
Wed, Aug 10, 2005, 07:07
it's interesting, because there have also been Conservative groups coming out against Roberts as well.

if both sides dislike him so much, he's probably good for the job...
 
218Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 10:51
On que, GOP musters furor and response.

"It's tough and it's accurate," Ms. Keenan said.

"It has done exactly what we expected it to do," she added, namely to provide a "wake-up call" about the stakes for reproductive freedom at issue in the current Supreme Court vacancy.


I agree with the ads. The truth stings.
 
219Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 10:57
The ad links Roberts with the clinic bombers. Is this the "truth" which "stings?"
 
220Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 13:35
John Roberts doesn't "excuse violence against other Americans". The ad is untrue.

Toral
 
221biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 13:54
He showed ambivalence, and said it wasn't the fed's problem. Is that "excusing" it? Perhaps.
 
222Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 13:56
He said more than that. He said it was a state problem, and that the state already had laws on the books to deal with the problem.

Saying that a crime should be dealt with on the state level rather than on the federal level is not an excuse for that crime.
 
223biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 13:59
And if it had been "eco-terrorists", instead of clinic bombers would he have written the same brief?
 
224Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:09
Re 223: My guess is "yes." The only twist would be if there were federal parks involved.
 
225biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:13
You are deluding yourself. The feds certainly haven't been throwing up their hands and saying it isn't their problem when persuing ELF and their ilk.

The decision was ideologically, as opposed to constitutionally, based. A may have been the administration's ideology instead of the Dread Pirate's ideology, but you choose your employers.
 
226Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:17
You can see the ad has had something of a desired effect as it has already conveyed the impression that the case had something to do with abortion clinic bombers. Actually the question in the case was whether a federal law justified an injunction forbidding protests at abortion clinics.

Toral
 
227Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:23
Roberts was actually on "your side" of that particular case, bili.
 
228Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:23
The decision was ideologically, as opposed to constitutionally, based.

What makes you say that? I would think that the SG would have opposed any attempt to expand the jurisdiction of the Ku Klux Klan act into areas it didn't belong.

Career employees with the SG's office, who sometimes clash with the appointees of a particular Administration, have already been quoted as saying they saw no attempt by Roberts to introduce a 'political' agenda into the SG's work.

Toral
 
229Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:24
Delusion, of course, is about a lot of things, but ignoring the context is question would surely be a factor, yes?
 
230biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:29
What's "my side"?

Bray did bomb an abortion clinic, but neither I, nor the ad said it had anything to do with bombing, only that roberts sided with Bray( a convicted bomber), which he did.

What context are you referring to?
 
231Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:35
From Ed Whelan: (somebody remind me how to link to something in the middle of a page so it goes there):

Yet further evidence that NARAL’s ideology makes it confuse violence and non-violence: Another amicus brief in Bray was submitted by 17 individuals such as Daniel Berrigan “who have been or are actively involved in the civil rights, anti-poverty, labor and peace movements” and who “share a common belief in the importance of nonviolent resistance to injustice.” That amicus brief, like Roberts’s submitted on behalf of the United States, sided with the position of the anti-abortion protesters that the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871 did not properly apply to their unlawful acts of trespass and obstruction.
Toral
 
232biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:35
Ask yourself: would Roberts have gone out of his way to file an unsolicited brief if Earth First was the defendant, and their crime was blockading (all male) LumberJack club's entrance into a redwood forest?

That would be unfathomable to me. I am not sure how you could convince yourself that he would, but if you can, I am stumped as to how else to convince you that this was ideologically driven.
 
233Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:39
Yes.

I am stumped as to how else to convince you that this was ideologically driven.

You could start by providing any evidence that any of Roberts' work in the SG office was ideologically driven.

Toral
 
234Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:43
By "ideologically driven" I mean taking a position that the law means one thing when the party is "on your side" and another thing when the party is "on the other side". That is what you are implying.

Toral
 
235Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 14:51
bili, when exactly, did Roberts side with the bomber? That is, when did Roberts write something about the bomber case?

I'm not looking for abortion cases in general. Or other abortion cases in particular. I'm looking for that specific case.
 
236biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 15:01
PD - He wrote an unsolicited brief which helped Bray, a convicted Bomber's case.

He could have written a brief for the prosecution. He could have written no brief. He chose to side with a clinic bomber in this particular case, though not in defense of the bombing, just the bomber.
 
237biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 15:06
Toral, in 1990 Earth Firsters were (falsely, I think - someone actually blew them up - ultimate blame the victim) accused by the FBI of attempting to plant a bomb in defense of some Red Woods.

I don't recall Roberts stepping in and telling Oakland PD to handle it and the feds to butt out, but maybe you can find some evidence of that to show how even-handed Roberts and Bush I were.
 
238Madman
ID: 11359814
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 15:12
bili -- What part of Robert's argument do you find unpersuasive? That barriers erected outside an abortion clinic don't represent "interstate" travel? That abortion protestors are protesting abortion and not protesting women? Or something else of which I am unaware?

You can hear Robert's argument from a link in this link ... I'll try to listen later today.
 
239biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 16:00
I don't recall saying anything about the argument was unpersuasive.

My issue is his motivation for stepping in and filing a "friend of the court" brief at all.
 
240Madman
ID: 114321413
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 18:15
bili -- so, let me get this straight. You are criticizing Roberts for successfully arguing an interpretation of the Constitution that you agree with?

Would you have found his behavior more acceptable if he had refrained from successfully advancing your views?

Is there some characteristic of anti-abortion activists that suggests they should be subject to erroneous punishment and conviction, even if such a capricious conviction results in a wide-reaching precedent that undermines the Constitution and protections afforded all ordinary citizens?
 
241biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 18:43
Let me steer you back off the moors and onto the road, madman.

We are debating the qualities and qualifications of this faux-Buffalonian, The Dread White-Bread Roberts, and whether he will render decisions sans ideological bias.

There has been evidence that he may, but this brief under discussion is evidence that he may not, at least in my book. If it appears he goes above and beyond for one side, twisting precedents (perhaps rightly - I'm no constitutional lawyer) to suit his ideology, yet their is little to suggest he would do the same for opposing ideology, than that is a strike against him in our investigation into his suitability for the highest court in our land.

Is one strike enough? Probably not. But perhaps he will miss a couple more softballs, and he should be told to sit down.

This has nothing to do with my ideology, per se, just evidence of his bias. His failure to acknowledge his roots and his 20K a year prep-school education are a couple more nasty fouls from my perspective, however. ;)
 
242Madman
ID: 114321413
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 20:42
it appears he goes above and beyond for one side, twisting precedents (perhaps rightly - I'm no constitutional lawyer) to suit his ideology, yet their is little to suggest he would do the same for opposing ideology

I will note that it is absolutely impossible to defend an accusation like yours. He works on the side of gay rights activists, and that doesn't mean anything because it was part of his job. He works on the side of abortion protestors to protect them against fairly stretched, IMO, accusations that they were acting discriminatorily toward women, and that means everything.

Whatever.

You don't have to be a Constitutional scholar to understand that Roberts' knew he had a winning argument in front of the Supreme Court. You don't have to be a Constitutional scholar listening to that argument to realize that he spoke with utterly amazing authority, self-confidence, and clarity in that case. You don't have to be a Constitutional scholar to know that "his" position here had nothing to do with abortion rights or even abortion activists.

You also don't have to be a Constitutional scholar to take those facts and presume bias based upon the mindless blathering of an ignorant activist group that values winning more than truth, just like you don't have to be a Constitutional scholar to see the problems with such behavior.
 
243biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 20:57
I've given Roberts his props for helping in the gay rights case when discussing it with my sister (at great risk to my own personal safety, I might add!), if not here.

That doesn't mean I can't express skepticism about his motivations ever again, does it? It doesn't mean everything. read what I wrote. "Is one strike enough? Probably not."

That his speech bringing tears to your eyes is touching, but has very little to do with his motivation for giving it, which is what I'm interested in.

What was NARAL ignorant of? They perhaps mislead, but they were guilty of actual falsehoods to a significantly lesser extent than groups like the swiftees.

I personally despise all these kinds of ads, but that doesn't mean there can be some useful truths that you should consider if you dig under them.
 
244Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 21:12
They perhaps mislead, but they were guilty of actual falsehoods to a significantly lesser extent than groups like the swiftees.

Is this what we're shooting for these days? Man, how low have we sunk?

I fully appreciate your last sentence, but if the NARAL ad is all you got on Roberts, it's time to just say "he's an acceptable candidate" and move on.
 
245Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Aug 11, 2005, 21:52
Geez, the ad is even to much for the Washington Post:
Abortion Smear


Friday, August 12, 2005; Page A18

IN GENERAL, discussion of the nomination of Judge John G. Roberts Jr. to the Supreme Court has taken place on a civilized level. Democratic senators, by and large, have appropriately reserved judgment; disputes over documents, while pointed, have been polite. The ad released this week by NARAL Pro-Choice America is a distressing exception. Seizing on his role in a 1993 Supreme Court decision as a lawyer for the government, it graphically -- and wholly unfairly -- seeks to tar Judge Roberts with being an apologist for abortion clinic bombings.

In releasing the ad, Nancy Keenan, NARAL's president, said in a statement that she wanted "to be very clear that we are not suggesting Mr. Roberts condones or supports clinic violence." That's funny, because the ad does precisely that. It opens with the scene of a bombed clinic -- a clinic attacked years after the case in question -- and then shows a victim of the bombing. An announcer intones that "Supreme Court nominee John Roberts filed court briefs supporting violent fringe groups and a convicted clinic bomber." It closes with the announcer telling viewers that "America can't afford a justice whose ideology leads him to excuse violence against other Americans." A reasonable viewer can only conclude that Judge Roberts -- who served as deputy solicitor general in the administration of George H.W. Bush -- had somehow justified or defended a clinic bombing.


What really happened? The solicitor general's office filed a friend-of-the-court brief in 1991 in a case dealing with whether federal courts could use an 1871 civil rights law to prevent physical blockades of clinics by antiabortion protesters. One of the named defendants had earlier been convicted in connection with clinic bombings, but that was not the subject of the case. The administration's stance in the case and others like it was, while aggressive and controversial, not extreme or legally untenable. Indeed, it prevailed at the Supreme Court on a 6-to-3 vote. In no sense did the brief defend clinic violence, much less bombings. Indeed, Judge Roberts began his oral argument by describing the conduct of the protesters as "tortious" and emphasizing that it was illegal under state law. The question in the case was whether federal law at that time provided additional grounds for legal action. Arguing that it did not is not the same as excusing clinic bombings.

NARAL is certainly within its rights to disagree with the position the government took in the case. But the impression it creates with this ad is not an argument but a smear-- a smear that will do less to discredit Judge Roberts than it will the organization that created it.
Toral

 
246Madman
ID: 11359814
Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 08:31
NARAL retracts the "smear". I couldn't find the retraction; the quote in the link suggests that NARAL believes the error is with viewers who have "misunderstood" their ad.
 
247Madman
ID: 11359814
Fri, Aug 12, 2005, 08:33
bili 243 -- and as to possible motive, I can't imagine why any ambitious lawyer would ever want to argue a winning Supreme Court case, can you?
 
248Razor
ID: 36241218
Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 16:41
It begins...
 
249The Treasonists
ID: 58638223
Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 23:21
Roberts also cheated in a game of Chutes and Ladders in August, 1961.
 
250Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 23:30
Chutes & Ladders, eh? Now there's a code for gay rights if I ever heard one...
 
251Toral
ID: 53422511
Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 23:41
I view Roberts as a legal craftsman. Check out this excerpt from the above story:
And on abortion, Roberts suggested tempering remarks President Reagan was planning on giving to an abortion rights group in November 1985. A speech written for Reagan by the White House was to include the line that Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court ruling legalizing abortion, "made void all our laws protecting the lives of infants developing in their mothers' wombs."

Roberts suggested changing the phrase "all our laws" to "many of our laws," pointing it was "legally inaccurate." He noted the Roe decision allowed some regulation of abortion, particular in the late term of pregnancy.
And this is the guy the bili-SZ left wants us to believe is a flame-thrower!

Toral

 
252Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Aug 15, 2005, 23:49
Good point Toral.

Going into this whole thing, knowing that the Christian Right has a stanglehold on this Administration and that the Senate is Republican by a safe margin, the fact that Bush nominated Roberts is a gift--better than a Democrat's wildest dreams.
 
253Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 00:06
And it fits in with conservatives' and the "Christian Right"'s dreams as well -- an honest and smart man who respects the Constitution and the Rule of Law. That's all conservatives have ever asked for.

Toral
 
254Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 00:07
That's not all that all Conservatives have asked for. Don't be disingenuous. You don't speak for everyone on the Right. These days you might not even speak for most on the Right.
 
255The Treasonists
ID: 58638223
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 00:24
It might have been Uncle Wiggly instead of Chutes and Ladders.
 
256Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 00:41
pd 254 I think you're wrong there. I'm not sure who on the Right you are thinking of, but even the ferocious Christian evangelical activists apply no religious test, will support good nominees without any religious or doctrinal test whatsoever. Look at the ferocity of their campaign to get a vote on Bush's Court of Appeal nominees. No religious test. I particularly liked Jmaes Dobson's ferocious anger when a couple guyz were thrown over the side in the filibuster deal. One guy from Montana or wherever -- no one else on the Right cared. Why did the Hard Right care? Because he was a secret evangelical Christian committed to establishing a theocracy? No. James Dobson doesn't know any more about him that I do. Because he's tired of good nominees being sandbagged by liberals.

I think you misunderstand conservatives' intensity and especially their purity of motive in this issue. John Roberts' pro bono work for gays reduced conservative support not a whit.

Toral
 
257Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:10
As a contrary view to those who think social conservatives are running things, the left columnist Jonathan Chait thinks they are a cheap date:
August 12, 2005 latimes.com : Print Edition : Editorials, Op-Ed Print E-mail story Most E-mailed

Jonathan Chait:
Blindly battling over Roberts
I'M HAVING a hard time figuring out who's less rational: the liberal activists campaigning to defeat John Roberts' Supreme Court nomination, or the conservative activists campaigning to support it.

Roberts, of course, is President Bush's widely hailed surprise pick to replace retiring Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Roberts has won praise from moderate liberal legal analysts such as Cass Sunstein of the University of Chicago and my New Republic colleague Jeffrey Rosen.

Roberts is widely regarded as extremely intelligent. Unlike conservative ideologues such as Antonin Scalia or Clarence Thomas, he prefers not to rewrite legal doctrine with sweeping new decisions. He is not the sort of nominee who you'd think should start a culture war.

Unfortunately, somebody forgot to tell that to NARAL Pro-Choice America, which has launched a new television ad assailing Roberts. The ad itself is highly misleading. It berates Roberts for arguing, during his tenure in George H.W. Bush's Justice Department, that the 1871 Ku Klux Klan Act could not be used to stop antiabortion protesters. NARAL's ad interprets this argument to mean that Roberts would be "a justice whose ideology leads him to excuse violence against other Americans."

But that conclusion is absurd. First, Roberts was acting as an advocate for the administration, not necessarily voicing his own views.

Second, Roberts was not excusing violence. He was merely arguing that a particular law did not apply in this instance. He explicitly wrote of the antiabortion protesters: "No matter how lofty or sincerely held the goal, those who resort to violence to achieve it are criminals."

And strategically, the idea of trying to sink Roberts' nomination is utterly harebrained. As Senate Democrats have admitted, Roberts is going to pass, probably by an overwhelming margin. Even if there was some chance that a freak slip-up could sink his nomination, Bush would simply find another nominee who would probably be even more conservative.

I can't think of any rationale for NARAL's campaign except that the group raised a whole bunch of money for a big Supreme Court fight, so, by gum, it's going to have one.

The battle lines on the Roberts' nomination had already hardened before this newspaper reported last week that Roberts had done pro bono work on behalf of gay-rights groups in Romer vs. Evans, a 1996 case establishing protections for homosexuals against state discrimination. Unlike Roberts' work for the Bush administration or in private practice, in which his role is to advocate his client's view, pro bono work really does tell you something about Roberts' personal beliefs. And given the fact that gay rights is a major new frontier in the legal and cultural wars, conservatives ought to be highly alarmed.



DESPITE ALL THIS, conservative groups such as James Dobson's Focus on the Family continue to staunchly back Roberts. It's hard to convey just how weird that is, given the radicalism of Dobson's views on social issues in general and gay rights in particular.

How far out is Dobson? He disseminated a guide in one of his 2002 newsletters on how a father can prevent his son from turning gay. The advice included roughhousing with him, teaching him to throw and catch, showing him how "to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard" (No, I didn't understand that one either), capped off with this: "He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger."

The point here is that Dobson is not merely conservative, he's certifiable. And, needless to say, he's not a big fan of Romer vs. Evans. Yet now Dobson is working to put one of the lawyers who gave his time to the gay-rights cause — for free! — on the Supreme Court.

To be sure, Roberts is probably a bit to the right of O'Connor. But Bush could easily have appointed a justice who's more than a bit to the right of O'Connor. Wing nuts such as William Pryor and Janice Rogers Brown had already won majority support for lower positions, and Bush could have gotten them on the high court with minimal effort. But Bush reserves his political capital for unpopular right-wing economic policies. He almost never expends it on social issues. Why should he, when pliant social conservatives will flock to the polls for the GOP regardless?

A Washington Post reporter once called religious conservatives "disproportionately poor, uneducated, and easy to command," a line for which he has since apologized and which has been cited endlessly as an example of the media's anti-religious bias.

I'm not sure about poor and uneducated, but the "easy to command" part seems pretty dead on.




 
258Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:22
No, Toral, I simply believe that you annoint conservatives with an automatic purity of motive without regard to actions or beliefs.

Dobson hates liberals. That explains his being PO'd at any deal which involves "giving in."
 
259Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:31
I should also note that this fascination of why some Dems are fighting Roberts while some Republicans are supporting him is easily explained if someone took five minutes thinking about how divisive this country has become in the last decade or so. It's the political trend of the last 10-15 years. And what we're seeing with Roberts is predictable.

People are on autopilot politically.
 
260biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:42
I somewhat disagree with Chait. I blue-blood ivy-league prep-schooler like roberts shows loyalty to his partner who asks him for help. That's not surprising at all.

Bush might have told Roberts to bird-dog and see what he could dig up to help the protesters, but it would be Roberts zeal that find the loophole.
 
261Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:44
No, Toral, I simply believe that you annoint conservatives with an automatic purity of motive without regard to actions or beliefs.

Not all conservatives. Perhaps I haven't spoken up enough about conservatives without a 'purity of motive' -- but the liberals here handle that beat pretty well, I think.

People are on autopilot politically.

There's a lot of truth in that. I rather liked the line from my favourite liberal blogger, Mickey Kaus:
At this point, if it were revealed that John Roberts was a member of the North American Man-Boy Love Association, liberal legal interest groups would probably still denounce him as an "ultraconservative" while conservative legal interest groups would say the NAMBLA story was just a "red herring meant to divide the right." These lobbies want to have a fight and they know the grounds they want to fight on. Don't distract them with quirks!
Toral

 
262Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:50
Bush might have told Roberts to bird-dog and see what he could dig up to help the protesters, but it would be Roberts zeal that find the loophole.

10 points across the board for weirdness. Now it's George Bush Sr. who's a secret sympathizer of clinic bombers and Operation Rescue, giving directions to the S-G's office?

Toral
 
263Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:53
And as for "the loophole" (and you also spoke of "twisting precedents", it was the plaintiff pro-choicers who had to make, let us say, imaginative use of precedents to support their cause.

Name one precedent Roberts "twisted". You alleged it, back it up.

Toral
 
264biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:56
I guess my lack of an American Gov class is showing. Isn't the SG appointed by the pres?
 
265biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 01:57
If I argued law with you, Toral, I really would be a fool.
 
266Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 02:21
You already did argue law, when you suggested Roberts had no motivation but ideology but to take his actions. You just didn't get called on it immediately. (Maybe your hemp-smoking friend can help you out.)

Therefore, we must conclude, that bili.....

Toral
 
267biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 10:28
"The Judge Report:

John Roberts is either a mad bomber of abortion clinics or a homo-tastic friend of the sodomite," reports Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. But, hey, wouldn't it be more fun if here both?
 
268Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 12:40
I have no dog in this fight, he's as good as in.

If the Democrats held the Senate, I'd like to see them hold up all Supreme Court nominations until 2009. GW is a lame duck, there is a good chance a Democrat will win in 2008, let's just wait this out. The court can operate just fine with one (or more) less robe(s). The Republicans would scream bloody murder and the theatrics would be grand theater.

This is boring.
 
269The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 13:39
This just in. Apparently John Roberts was caught jaywalking in 1969. He didn't get a ticket as no policemen were around. However, there were at least two eyewitnesses that the Democrats are prepared to have testify at his confirmation hearing.
 
270Toral
ID: 53422511
Tue, Aug 16, 2005, 17:52
SZ 268 Not realistic now. But if the Dems gain just a few senate seats in 2006, and there is a SCOTUS vacancy from among the 5 liberals/moderate liberals/centrists, I could see them considering the 2-year holdup as a serious option.

Just one or two gains might make it impossible for the GOP to use the nuclear option against a filibuster.

Toral
 
271Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719
Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 12:32
Archives Investigates Loss of Roberts File

Hmm, that seems a bit strange.

The National Archives started a formal investigation Wednesday into the loss of a file of Judge John G. Roberts Jr.'s papers on affirmative action from the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library.

Senate Democrats, preparing for hearings on Judge Roberts's nomination to the Supreme Court, had asked Tuesday for the investigation. They noted that Bush administration officials had reviewed the files in July before they went missing.
 
272Toral
ID: 54751812
Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 13:07
Has anyone checked Sandy Berger's pants?
 
273Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 13:21
Now that's a line just begging for a good response...
 
274The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 13:28
Why not try to steal them. We now know that the penalty is only a slap on the wrist as was handed out to the obviously guilty Sandy Burgler.
 
275Tree
ID: 497251818
Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 20:51
Roberts Disparaged States' Sex-Bias Fight

Supreme Court nominee John Roberts disparaged state efforts to combat discrimination against women in Reagan-era documents made public Thursday, and wondered whether "encouraging homemakers to become lawyers contributes to the common good."

cave, meet man. starting to wonder if he's a throwback to the stone age...
 
276Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 21:11
To be fair, many anti-discrimination laws in the late 70's-early 80's were themselves quite discriminatory. Set-asides, quotas, and other typical tricks of the trade were bad law and bad policy.

I would certainly never agree with the current administration's policies on affirmative action. But the current view is a direct decendent of crappy anti-discrimination laws in the past, which were used by Republicans to crawl back up out of their own political hell of the time.
 
277Tree
ID: 567521917
Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 19:02
Roberts Scoffed at Promotion for O'Connor

yep, roberts seems like a swell guy...
 
278Sludge
ID: 14411118
Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 19:09
Did you bother reading the article, Tree?
 
279Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 19:22
Just the first paragraph would have suffuced:

As a lawyer in the Reagan White House, John Roberts scoffed at the notion of elevating Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor to chief justice as a way to close a political gender gap, calling it a "crass political consideration."

I agree with him that you don't base your decision on the appointment of a Chief Justice as a political ploy. You disagree?
 
280Toral
ID: 53422511
Thu, Sep 01, 2005, 00:16
Well, we've got to get ready for the Roberts hearings next week.

There is one thing I don't like about John Roberts. It is his sense of humour. I seem to be in the minority here, or at least weighed against the MSM.

Zillions of documents by Roberts have been produced from his first jobs, with the AG., etc.
And in his memoes to his bosses he liked to put witticisms.

All of his jokes/witticisms are totally lame.

The MSM and the whole legal establishment are praising him for "wry humor", "putting humor into a dull job", etc.

My opinion is that Judge Roberts has the worst sense of humour of all the people I've ever met. By far. No contest.

Discuss.

Toral

 
281Tree
ID: 458257
Mon, Sep 05, 2005, 08:35
Bush Nominates Roberts As Chief Justice

come on. he hasn't even been appointed to the court yet...
 
282Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Mon, Sep 05, 2005, 09:33
Tree, if my facts are right, only 3 of the previous 16 CJ's were elevated from Associate Justice to CJ.

By doing this Bush will only have 2 fights-CJ slot and O'Conner's slot-rather than 3-elevating a current AJ to CJ plus filling the current 2 empty slots.
 
283Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Sep 05, 2005, 10:32
Good move by Bush. And good for the country. Roberts is much more of a moderate than everyone from the left feared.
 
284Toral
ID: 53422511
Mon, Sep 05, 2005, 19:20
Not sure this makes sense from the Bush/conservative pov. As the NYT story puts it,
the rapid sequence of events left Mr. Bush back where many in Washington had expected him to be at the end of the court's last session in June: having swapped one reliable conservative for another in the chief justice's seat and facing a much more intense battle to replace Justice O'Connor, a swing vote on abortion and many of the other most contentious issues.

 
285Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 21:19
Roberts with an interesting spin in his hearings: He refuses to answer questions about issues which may come up before the court for which his participation in the hearings will decide.

Cart before the horse? Blanket protection against having views examined?

Seems to me that the hearing are being held for the very purpose of helping Senators decide how he would rule on issues before the court if he were on it.

pd
 
286Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 21:27
A strangely center-justified text of the hearing
 
287Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 21:29
Seems to me that the hearing are being held for the very purpose of helping Senators decide how he would rule on issues before the court if he were on it.


Absolutely not.

It would be a gross violation of judicial ethics for a judge to "pre-judge" a case.

It's only in recent times that the Senators have started this nonsense of picking at judicial nominees about their views on specific issues or cases. It's wrong.

The purpose of the Senate hearing should be to determine if the nominee is competent for the job and not completely insane or likely to be going insane soon(to the degree those are not mutually exclusive qualities)
 
288Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 21:34
Well, you actually pointed out that they are held for that purpose. You might disagree that the hearings should be held for that purpose, but its a forgone conclusion that Senators are trying to pre-judge the judge to see how they will hold up the particular political philosophy of the Senator in question.
 
289Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 21:55
PD

It's not interesting spin at all, it is the reply of every nominee in my lifetime to the seemingly obligatory yet impossible senatorial request for how he will rule in advance in specific cases. Giving in would make a mockery of any case going before the court when all sides know how he has already committed himself.

Anyone who wants a judge who would answer that question doesn't want a judge. He wants a rubber stamp.
 
290Pancho Villa
ID: 197552915
Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 21:59
I watched a bit of the proceedings and was very impressed with Robert's demeanor.

Democrats would do well to get this nomination along. Otherwise, the obstructionist charge will be rightfully leveled.
 
291Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 22:03
Baldwin, I'm afraid I need to be more clear, since you reached for your own rubber stamp far too quickly for me to determine if you'd either already decided how you were going to post, or read too quickly to have veered from your grooved posting style:

Roberts is refusing to talk about issues. Not just specific cases. Maybe this is old news that a nominee says that they won't even talk about the commerce clause, for instance, since the issue is not "settled."

The point of Senators, on both sides, who want a rubber stamp, is self-evident, of course.

Yeah, Pancho, I've felt Roberts is a good pick for some time.
 
292Razor
      ID: 158411118
      Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 22:05
I agree that the practice of asking judges how'd they'd rule is unsavory, but feeling a judge out and finding out how he might rule based on his interpretation of the law and the role of the bench is fair game. That is, if a nominee thinks that every SCOTUS decision from the Warren Court (and only the Warren Court) should be overturned because it was an overly activist court, then Senators should be free to block as they please.

Then again, if you're going to admonish the Senate for the practice, you could make a case that the President should be admonished for picking nominees who only pass his own litmus test.
 
293Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Tue, Sep 13, 2005, 22:22
I think Robert's nomination will be one of the few things to go into the positive column in the Bush legacy.
Some guys like Joseph Farah are upset that he's not in the Scalia/Thomas mold, but Bush seems to have realized that a well-rounded jurist was necessary for the court to be effective. At least I'll believe that until I see his next nominee.
 
294Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Sep 14, 2005, 13:11
Dahlia Lithwick on Roberts:
John Roberts is putting on a clinic.

He completely understands that he needs only to sit very quietly, head cocked to signal listening-ness, while senator after senator offers long discursive rambling speeches. Only when he's perfectly certain that a question has been asked does he offer a reply; usually cogent and spare. Here's a man long accustomed to answering really hard questions from extremely smart people, suddenly faced with the almost-harder task of answering obvious questions from less-smart people. He finds himself standing in a batting cage with the pitching machine set way too slow.

It's increasingly clear that Senate Democrats are giving up. They are taking a cue from the petulant Joe Biden, who telegraphs exactly who these hearings are really for when he refuses to let the nominee answer any of his questions. When Sen. Arlen Specter growls at Biden to let Roberts finish just one answer, Biden growls back: "I don't have much time." Later when Biden complains of Roberts, "But he's filibustering!" it's without any sense of irony. How dare this man use our own childish games against us?

Whereas Biden and Patrick Leahy made at least some effort to develop lines of questioning, Herb Kohl and Dianne Feinstein give up entirely. Knowing there will be no Perry Mason moment—there won't even be a Lionel Hutz moment—they dully read their questions from a script and avoid the follow-up altogether. "Oh, so you aren't opposed to environmental protection? OK. Let's move on." The hunters have become the hunted. The lion is draped across a chaise longue, picking his teeth with their arguments.


 
295Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Sep 14, 2005, 13:19
I think Lithwick is picking up on the fact that Roberts is just a good candidate and that the Dems are just mailing it in.

Let's get this guy confirmed.

BTW I think this is great for Spector (and other moderate Republicans). He gets to work on a high-profile yet low-pressure proceeding to get the jitters out.
 
296Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Wed, Sep 14, 2005, 13:24
The hunters have become the hunted. The lion is draped across a chaise longue, picking his teeth with their arguments.

Claptrap. If Roberts was assuming anything resembling a 'predatory' role, we'd have a lot to be concerned about. True, Biden has been shamelessly grandstanding, especially yesterday. But much of the questioning in general is representative of the differnces in approach to scotus law, no? FTR I think Roberts is holding up very nicely.
 
297biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Sep 14, 2005, 13:25
From NPR:
80-20 rule. When the Senators give speeches for 80% of the time and the nominee only speaks for 20% of the time, he is confirmed. 50-50 he is in trouble.
 
298Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Wed, Sep 14, 2005, 13:35
I think the Roberts confirmation is highlighting how embarrassingly unserious a body the Senate in general and the Judiciary Committee in particular has become. Jon Stewart's little bit lat night on the hearings was hilarious.
 
299Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 12:48
Glenn Reynolds considers a repeal of the 17th Amendment or a requirement that Senators not run for the Pesidency as means to reform the situation comedey that our Senate has become.

As for me I'd trade the disbandment of the Senate for a meaningful 10th Amendment and restricted Commerce Clause..
 
300biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 15:47
But let me ask you this about judges in general. You sit on a court, correct?

ROBERTS: Yes.

SCHUMER: OK. And sometimes you dissent. And that's routine, not just for you but for every judge.

ROBERTS: It's rare on our court, I'm happy to say.

SCHUMER: Yes, it is. It is. That is true. I've noticed that. But it happens in courts all the time.

OK. And in doing so, the dissenting judge is criticizing the majority opinion, right? Disagreeing with it? And I take it this happens on the Supreme Court quite often? And, in fact, there aren't that many unanimous Supreme Court cases on major cases these days.

ROBERTS: Actually, one point that statistics always show that more cases were unanimous than anything else.

SCHUMER: But there are a lot of dissenting...

ROBERTS: There are a lot.

SCHUMER: And every justice on the Supreme Court has dissented in many cases; meaning they disagreed with the opinion of the court, right? And nothing is wrong with that? There is nothing improper, nothing unethical?

Let's go to commentators. Non-judges are free to criticize and disagree with Supreme Court cases. Correct?

ROBERTS: Yes.

SCHUMER: In speeches, law review articles, it's a healthy process, wouldn't you say?

ROBERTS: I agree with that. Yes.

SCHUMER: And you did this occasionally when you were in private practice?

ROBERTS: Yes.

SCHUMER: OK. Nothing unseemingly about that?

ROBERTS: No.

SCHUMER: OK. And how about lawyers representing clients? Lawyers representing clients criticize cases and legal briefs all the time. That's what they do for a living.

And that's part of being a good lawyer.

And you signed your name to briefs explicitly criticizing and disagreeing with Supreme Court decisions?

ROBERTS: On occasion, yes.

SCHUMER: In Rust v. Sullivan, for example, your brief said that, quote, "Roe was wrongly decided and should be overturned," unquote. Right?

ROBERTS: Yes.

SCHUMER: OK. But in this hearing room, you don't want to criticize or disagree with any decided cases? That seems strange to me. It seems strange, I think, to the American people that you can't talk about decided cases -- past cases, not future cases -- when you've been nominated to the most important job in the federal judiciary.

You could do it when you worked in the White House, you could do it when you worked in the Justice Department, you could do it when you worked in private practice, you could do it when you gave speeches and lectures; as a sitting judge, you've done it until very recently. You could probably do it before you just walked into this hearing room.

And if you're confirmed, you may be doing it for 30 years on the Supreme Court. But the only place and time that you cannot criticize any cases of the Supreme Court is in this hearing room -- when it is more important than at any other time that the American people, and we the senators, understand your views.

Why this room should be some kind of a cone of silence is beyond me. The door outside this room doesn't say, "check your views at the door."



transcript
 
301Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 15:48
And thus did the most repulsive man in congress suggest that every SCOTUS nominee in history was a disembling scoundrel.
 
302Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 15:54
???

Schumer's point is simply that if he has opinions he should express them.
 
303Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 16:59
Schumer is either an ignorant idiot or disengenious and deceitful ass if he thinks/pretends to think that asking a sitting judge to discuss how he would decide matters that he may actually have before him in court is analogous to a commentator on the O'Reilly show dicsussing a a SCOTUS decision.

If he doesn't understand the difference, he should't be sitting on the Senate judiciary comittee. Actually, check that - he perfect for that Committee. of know nothing blow-hards.
 
304biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 17:33
Isn't there a distinction between commenting on past cases and discussing how he would rule in future ones?
 
305Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 18:27
Well, to answer that, let's go to the tape:

"You not only have a right to choose what you will answer and not answer, but in my view you should not answer a question of what your view will be on an issue that clearly is going to come before the court in 50 forms probably, over your tenure on the court." Joe Biden during the Ruth Ginsberg confirmation hearings.

Roberts has not refused to "comment" on past cases. He has done so eloquently. What he has rightly refused to do is give any indication of how he would use precendent.
 
306Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 20:21
Roberts has not refused to "comment" on past cases. He has done so eloquently. What he has rightly refused to do is give any indication of how he would use precendent.

Sounds like he has refused to comment on past cases. He can't think of a single SCOTUS case he disagreed with, not a single point of a single case? Schumer is right on in his criticism and MBJ, you are being a little disengenious.
 
307Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 23:37
SZ -- just because Shumer says it, it doesn't make it so. Just because John Roberts didn't intentionally express disagreements to cases in response to Shumer didn't mean he didn't do so elswhere.

transcript

HATCH: How do you distinguish between these two roles of interpreting and making law? And can you assure the Senate and the American people that you will stay on your side of this line?

ROBERTS: I will certainly make every effort to do so, Senator.

I appreciate the point that in some cases the question of whether you're interpreting the law or making the law -- that that line is hard to draw in some cases.

I would say not in most cases. I think in most cases, most judges know what it means to interpret the law and can recognize when they're going too far into an area of making law.

But certainly there are harder cases. And someone like Justice Harlan always used to explain that when you get to those hard cases you do need to focus again on the question of legitimacy and make sure that this is the question that you the judge are supposed to be deciding rather than someone else.

You go to a case like the Lochner case, you can read that opinion today and it's quite clear that they're not interpreting the law, they're making the law. The judgment is right there.

They say, We don't think it's too much for a baker to work -- whatever it was -- 13 hours as day. We think the legislature made a mistake in saying they should regulate this for their health. We don't think it hurts their health at all.

That's right there in the opinion. You can look at that and see that they are substituting their judgment on a policy matter for what the legislature had said.

So the fact that it's difficult to draw the line doesn't relieve a judge of an obligation to draw the line.

There are those more academic theorists who say, It's a question of degree. And since it's just a question of degree you shouldn't try to draw the line because it's hard sometimes to interpret the law without making the law. We should throw our hands up and say, 'Well, judges make the law,' and proceed from that.

That has not been my experience either as a judge or an advocate. My experience has been, in most cases you can see where the line is and you do know when judges are exceeding their authority and making the law rather than interpreting it.

And careful judges are always vigilant to make sure that they're adhering to their proper function and not going into the legislative area.

...

If that doesn't express clear disagreement with the particulars of a single case, I don't know what does.
 
308Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Sep 15, 2005, 23:37
Shumer Schumer. Whatever. ;)
 
309Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 11:47
Looks like the Dems are splitting their votes. No surprise there.
 
310Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 12:25
Kohl not a surprise, but Leahy was. There was incredible anger in this Daily Kos thread.
 
311Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 12:31
DK was pissed that Roberts pulled a Bush (i.e., refused to get into details at the time when the voters are looking for them). But he misses the point that one doesn't fight now to ensure victory in the next fight. One saves strength to fight the ones worth fighting. Indeed, by confirming Bush's pick quickly, Senate Dems put themselves is a better position to challenge a later (worse) nominee because they won't have the "obstructionist" charge hanging over themselves.
 
312Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 12:35
That's the "keep your powder dry" theory and I think it's right. But a lot of the liberal commenters aren't buying it.
 
313Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 13:20
A lot of liberal commentators are so used to fighting everything Bush they can't see the forest for the trees anymore.

[A lot of conservative commentators are the same way, but that's for another day].

Luckily Roberts will be confirmed anyway. I continue to fear for the middle of my party, however.
 
314biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 14:36
I continue to fear for the middle of my party, however.

Me too. They are missing a huge opportunity not taking up the mantle as the champion of the poor that Katrina has offered them. Instead they are dinking around about foregone nominees. They should be demanding more progressive monatary policy, improved education and health care. Screaming from the mountain tops about tax breaks for the rich that step on the poor. The widening gap in incomes. Instead they are letting conservative pundits pin the plight of New Orleans on "Urban Liberal Failures".

The dems are wimpy little twits, and just sit and take it.
 
315Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 14:58
I was quite surprised (pleasantly so) at Pelosi's offer of returning money. Politically the Dems are right on the money in demanding that the cost of the cleanup and the rebuild be done in a way which signifies the shared sacrifice that has always been a hallmark of American responses. Republicans are looking like little kids, saying "I got mine" while continuing to give the same old "we'll just write another check."
 
316Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 15:12
I wonder who is most to blame for the Republican party's lack of fiscal responsibility these days. Perhaps "blame" isn't the right word, considering it seems many Americans either don't care or are too stupid to see acknowledge it.
 
317Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 05:50
I wonder who is most to blame for the Republican party's lack of fiscal responsibility these days.

The neocons who took over the party so soon after the Reagan Revolution and eviserated any operational conservatism from the party. It's been mostly rhetoric and lip service to Reagan ever since.

 
318biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 08:38
"I am mindful that diversity is one of the strengths of the country," he said. "I have interviewed people in the past and thought about people from all walks of life."

Gonzalez? Brown?
 
319Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 09:01
Conservative sites/sources do not claim to have any reliable knowledge. Various anonymous sources in the WH are saying different things. Last week the WP and NYT had stories on the same day, one indicating that Bush was going to make a "diversity" pick, one indicating that he was not. And the WH has been good at keeping its cards close to the chest -- recall the Joy Clement boomlet before the Roberts selection.

However:

1) confirmthem.com and redstate.org reported yesterday that Karl Rove was making a last-minute push for Gonzales, who had previously fallen off the list because of conservative opposition. Gonzales is considered the most easily confirmable name on the list.

2) Priscilla Owen had been considered the favourite before that.

3) Janice Rogers Brown, although a favourite choice of conservative hardliners, is not considered likely. Her ability is fine for the court she's on but is noty really SCOTUS-level.

4) Despite Bush's diversity hint, an appointment of one of the 2 most able candidates, McConnell and Luttig, is still possible.
 
320Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 16:54
For conservatives only: Take this quiz and find out who your ideal SCOTUS nominee is. Mine is Judge Edith Jones.

Toral
 
321Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 17:02
Re 318: My guess is that's he's limited his lists to lawyers, however.
 
322Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 20:12
That quiz is genius, Toral. I got


Maxine Waters

How did they know??? It must have been my emphasis on someone both sides of the aisle would easily agree upon.
 
323The Treasonists
      ID: 58638223
      Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 22:19
I think his wife will make him pick a woman.

Also, I'm tired of hearing that they will or will not overturn Roe v. Wade. I don't think this is possible. They may rule on a similar case to Roe v. Wade, but I don't think they can wheel in old cases and rerule on them just because they have new court members. Maybe I'm wrong.

Let's run with this premise that Roe v. Wade is overturned. How would that work? It was OK to get an abortion, but now it is not OK. Are they going to bring the dead baby back? Luckily they won't have to because in the original case it took so long to get to the SC that she had the baby, and gave it up for adoption. Anyways reruling that case would not make sense and would be a complete waste of time. Next time some blubbering Senator talks about overturning Roe v. Wade (v is for versus, but for some reason gets shortened to just v.) I pray the interviewer brings up these points.



 
324Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 22:30
They would throw it back to the states, who would then make changes within the guidelines that SCOTUS gave for sending it back (probably along the lines of the case in question).

Some states (Idaho, Wyoming) probably already have drafts ready to pass within a day or so of SCOTUS giving the green light.
 
325Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 08:29
Let's run with this premise that Roe v. Wade is overturned. How would that work? It was OK to get an abortion, but now it is not OK.

How would it work? As pd said, abortion would become a matter for state regulation. But states wouldn't necessarily have to pass new laws. In some states, the pre-Roe laws have never been repealed. There is uncertainty among legal experts whether these statutes would be 'revived' and come back into force automatically or not. That would be litigated on a state-by-state basis.

Movements would begin at the state level to liberalize restrictive laws and restrict liberal ones. In addition, judiciaries would become a battleground: in a number of states, state courts have found a right to abortion in the state constitution. In those states, conservatives would have to work on changing the judiciaries. Liberals would seek judges inclined to find a similar rights in their states' constitutions.

It would become a 50-state political free-for-all. Heck, municipalities would get involved too, as some try to zone out abortion clinics. The political free-for-all aspect is why many Republican political strategists don't want Roe overturned -- and many suspect that that group includes Karl Rove.

The 2 most pro-life states according to polls are Utah and Louisiana. Pro-life sentiment in Louisiana is why the very pro-choice Mary Landrieu does not want to vote against Bush nominees or impose an abortion litlus list.

There is a good site which keeps track of this stuff (what happens if Roe is overturned?) but unfortunately I didn't bookmark it). The best guess is that in the short run, only about 6 states are likely to have laws that forbid abortion.

Toral
 
326Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 08:31
"litlus list" = litmus test
 
327Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 08:36
NYT Week in Review article: What if Roe Fell?
 
328The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 14:23
Interesting stuff. I imagine a person who lives in a No-abortion state could travel to a Yes-abortion state and have it done there.

My point was that they could have a new case, say Smith v. Jones and rule on that so as to not allow an abortion. The effect of which would be to supercede, or change the general rulings from the old Roe v. Wade case. However, they cannot overturn the actual Roe v. Wade case itself from the past. Semantics mostly.
 
329Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 14:33
Well, they have it within their power to overturn a past decision (Brown v Topeka Board of Education overturned Plessy v Ferguson, for example). But outright reversals are very rare.
 
330Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 14:45
328 Yeah I suppose so. What is possible is a case would overrule the precedent that in Roe v. Wade.

It's also possible to wipe a case out as if it never existed. The Roe in Roe v. Wade, Norma McCorvey asked the Supreme Court to do that , to vacate the decision, after she became a Christian 1n 1995. (Although this story doesn't indicate it, she has also acknowledged that the story of woe she gave the courts at the time to get the abortion was a heap o' lies.) The Court declined to do so.
 
331Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 16:24
But outright reversals are very rare.

Bowers, the Goergia sodomy case of the late 1980s was reversed just this past year.
 
332Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 17:12
I said "rare" not "none recently."
 
333Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 17:15
pardon me.
 
334Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Sep 30, 2005, 17:22
NP.

;)

BTW, congrats on the Bengals start. It's ironic that their real rebuilding started when they dumped Dillon.
 
335Tree
      ID: 2794035
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 07:40
Bush Chooses Miers for Supreme Court

no judicial record. this oughta be interesting...
 
336Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 07:52
Gasp. Disaster. Horror.

This came before I could write my pick preview, but on it Miers was going into the first category, "Liberals and Moderates should be happy if the pick is..." Liberals should be happy because this pick will demoralize and infuriate the conservative base. Nothing personal against Miers. She's qualified and will be confirmed. The problem is that no one knows a damn thing about her legal philosophy. People who are vaguely "conservative" but whose legal philosophy is unknown always turn out to be like O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, Stevens, Blackmun, Brennan....

Liberals can entertain themselves by reading the conservative dismay and anger at confirmthem.com throughout the day. Great facts are coming out: Miers gave $1000 to Al Gore in 1988. Gee that's wonderful.

Unable to decide, Bush picked A Crony.

Bush has betrayed social conservatives for the first time, and the knife was a long one.

Toral
 
337Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 09:03
You're right. Reading the comments at confirmthem.com is entertaining. If conservatives hate her the choice this much, she can't be all bad.

The thing that was most surprising to me about her is that she went to law school at SMU. Nowadays, pretty much all SCOTUS justices are from Harvard, Yale or Stanford Law.

At 60 years old, her age is also interesting.
 
338Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 10:33
Tough to say where I stand on this, initially. I am of the mind that all nominees should be supremely qualified, and it doesn't appear that Miers is of the same caliber as Roberts. Still, it doesn't appear that she'll be of the Scalia/Thomas mold, which is good. Do the Democrats really want to give Bush another chance to nominate an ultra-conservative? It appears that the Left has dodged two bullets. As always is the case with this administration, though, I'm aware that appearances and reality don't always coincide.

I don't think it matters if the Left objects to her qualifications. I doubt enough GOP Senators have the guts to go against the President and present themselves as hardliners. And they say the Democrats are fragmented...
 
339Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 10:40
Bush rewards a loyal soldier. Wonder if he even realizes how important the post is?
 
340biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 10:43
SOP for Bush. I know nothing about Miers, but it doesn't sound like Bush even attempted to find the "most qualified candidate". SOP for a politician who had degraded government's ability to function with horrendous decisions in filling essential and key gov't positions at nearly every turn.
 
341Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 10:55
Although conservatives are dumping on her qualifications now too, I don't personally have a problem from that angle. (Although if you (whoever you are) do, GREAT! Contact your Senator and urge him or her to defeat/filibuster the nomination!) First woman managing partner of a large Texas law firm, first woman president of the Texas bar association -- no qualifications problem in my personal opinion.

The cronyism is not good, but from a conservative POV the sadness is that Bush is revealed as A Coward. Miers was reportedly on a no-filibuster list supplied by the Dems.

In other news -- one immediate ramification is the end of Jeb's presidential hopes. Conservatives will never support a Bush again.

Toral
 
342biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 11:25
NRO's Frum.


There was no reason for him to choose anyone but one of these outstanding conservatives. As for the diversity argument, it just seems incredible to imagine that anybody would have criticized this president of all people for his lack of devotion to that doctrine. He has appointed minorities and women to the highest offices in the land, relied on women as his closest advisers, and staffed his administration through and through with Americans of every race, sex, faith, and national origin. He had nothing to apologize for on that score. So the question must be asked, as Admiral Rickover once demanded of Jimmy Carter: Why not the best?

I worked with Harriet Miers. She's a lovely person: intelligent, honest, capable, loyal, discreet, dedicated ... I could pile on the praise all morning. But there is no reason at all to believe either that she is a legal conservative or - and more importantly - that she has the spine and steel necessary to resist the pressures that constantly bend the American legal system toward the left.

I am not saying that she is not a legal conservative. I am not saying that she is not steely. I am saying only that there is no good reason to believe either of these things. Not even her closest associates on the job have no good reason to believe either of these things. In other words, we are being asked by this president to take this appointment purely on trust, without any independent reason to support it. And that is not a request conservatives can safely grant.

There have just been too many instances of seeming conservatives being sent to the high court, only to succumb to the prevailing vapors up there: O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter. Given that record, it is simply reckless for any conservative president, especially one backed by a 55-seat Senate majority, to take a hazard on anything other than a known quantity.

But here is what we do know: the pressures on a Supreme Court justice to shift leftward are intense. There is the negative pressure of the vicious, hostile press that legal conservatives must endure. And there are the sweet little inducements - the flattery, the invitations to conferences in Austria and Italy, the lectureships at Yale and Harvard - that come to judges who soften and crumble. Harriet Miers is a taut, nervous, anxious personality. It is impossible to me to imagine that she can endure the anger and abuse - or resist the blandishments - that transformed, say, Anthony Kennedy into the judge he is today.

Nor is it safe for the president's conservative supporters to defer to the president's judgment and say, "Well, he must know best." The record shows I fear that the president's judgment has always been at its worst on personnel matters.

Conservatives have expressed unhappiness with the nomination of Julie Myers for the top immigration enforcement slot, but there are dozens and maybe hundreds of similarly troubling choices, from the cabinet on down.

Again and again, George Bush has announced bold visionary policies - and again and again he has entrusted the execution of those policies to people who do not believe in them or even understand them. This is most conspicuously true in foreign policy, but it has been true in domestic policy as well. The result: the voice is the voice of Reagan, but too often the hands are the hands of George HW Bush.

Or worse. George HW Bush made his bad appointments in the name of replacing Reaganite "ideology" with moderate Republican "competence." He didn't live up to his own billing, but you can understand his intentions. But the younger Bush has based his personnel decisions upon a network of personal connections in which competence plays no very large part.

The consequences As Stephen Spruiell makes clear in an important article in the current print NR, the Bush administration had committed itself to valuable reforms in the Army Corps of Engineers, reforms that concentrated resources where they were most needed and fought back against Congress' habit of using the Corps for pork-barrelling purposes. That excellent policy allowed administration critics to accuse the president of "cutbacks." It was predictable that such accusations would be made, and because it was predictable, it was therefore essential that the administration prove itself committed to the nation's flood safety by, for example, appointing only the very most visibly capable people to serve at FEMA. The Michael Brown appointment may in the end not prove very much responsible for the damage done to New Orleans. But it sure has wrecked the president's reform agenda at the Corps of Engineers.
 
343Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 12:05
Not to be overly personal or anything, but Miers is unmarried -- I wonder if she is infatuated with Bush? Miers once told Frum that Bush was the most brilliant man she had ever met. Considering her worldly experience, that strikes me as odd. Personally, I knew at least a handful of people more "brilliant" than Bush by Grade 7. I think Trish Curtis was smarter than Bush is today in grade 5, and certainly Debbie Ogilvie by grade 7. And that's just in one small Ontario town....

Toral
 
344Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 12:23
She's just kissing up.

Perhaps she's a lesbian. That would certainly make the conservative talkies go nuclear.
 
345Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 12:45
Conservatives don't care about sexual orientation. If Miers were a legal conservative, and outed herself as a flaming proud lesbian during the hearings, she wouldn't lose an ounce of conservative support.

Toral
 
346hoops boy
      ID: 4792539
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 12:45
trying to get a bead on the political strategy here...

perhaps he went for someone unqualified enough that he can get dems to vote against her, there by allowing him to toss his hands up and nominate someone more conservative (and potentially not a women).

or perhaps he wants someone the repubs will vote down, so he can then nominate someone more conservative that the repubs will go for.

or maybe at 60 years of age he figures she'll be worm bair in 10 years and by then after 8 years of clinton the repubs will be back in power and able to nominate someone new in there... ?
 
347Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 12:47
trying to get a bead on the political strategy here...

He went for a nominee the Dems wouldn't filibuster.

It was clutch time. He choked.

Toral
 
348Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 13:34
Toral, you have far too much faith in political philosophy over bigotry. I would hope that you were rights (#345) but there are far too many examples to demonstrate that in real world situations, sexual orientation is, indeed, a factor.

I'm with you, though, on trying to make it a non-factor.
 
349Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 13:42
I understand what you are saying in #348, pd, but I think you are wrong.

I know both social conservatives and legal conservatives far far better than you do. If you are associating social conservatism with "bigotry" then I believe you are wrong.

Toral
 
350The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 13:47
323 The Treasonists

I think his wife will make him pick a woman.

At least George will get some tonight or later this week.

 
351Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 13:47
I'm not associating it with anything of the sort. No need to get all "I knew Jack Kennedy" on me. Bigots exist in all political stripes. Social conservatism as a political philosophy doesn't give one immunity from bigotry either. Though in at least one case it appears to have given you immunity from seeing it.
 
352Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 13:50
Bigots exist in all political stripes.

I'm glad you've realized that. I was going to talk to you about that. Any self-examination?

Toral
 
353Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 13:54
You must be straining with the effort of trying to make this about bigoted liberals instead of doing even minimal examination yourself. I'll leave you to your work.
 
354Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 13:59
Don't worry. After this nomination, all legal-, social- religious- traditional- and any other kind of conservatives will be doing a very intense self-examination in in the next few days.

Toral
 
355Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:07
Perhaps you should start by asking how your party got hijacked and why you bothered supporting a guy who isn't very much like you.

And you must be at least slightly delusional that a candidate wouldn't lose at least some support from those on the right for being openly gay. Weren't we talking about how important the Evangelical element was to the Republican party just 10 months ago?
 
356Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:11
Weren't we talking about how important the Evangelical element was to the Republican party just 10 months ago?

You assume evangelical Christians hate gays/lesbians and would oppose people who have a gay/lesbian sexual orientation. You are wrong.

Toral
 
357Canadian Hack
      ID: 50741812
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:20
You assume evangelical Christians hate gays/
lesbians and would oppose people who have a gay/
lesbian sexual orientation. You are wrong.


In fact, John Roberts might be an in the closet gay
person. A couple weeks ago, Bill Maher made a pretty
convincing case for this on his TV show - citing among
other things his women problems in his life, the fact he
adopted his kids, the fact he played Pepperment Patty
in a college play and a couple photos of him as a
younger man where he and his friends did look like
they are quite likely gay.

I think it is quite interesting that a president who got re-
elected for a large part because people came out to
vote against gay marriage (who would also vote for
him) may have installed the first gay chief justice of the
supreme court.
 
358biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:26
- 80% of evangelicals oppose gay marriage.
- 52% of eveangelicals think acceptance of homosexuality would be bad for the country.

Also, you may know Canadian conservatives, but we have a nastier breed down here in the US:

Only 24% of Canadians think Homosexuality should not be accepted by society, yet 42% of Americans don't think it should be accepted.

I was hoping to find some employment-related questions, but no luck so far.

pewforum report.
 
359Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:38
You assume evangelical Christians hate gays/lesbians and... You are wrong.

Interesting to see Toral pick up Baldwin's little mind reading hat to tell Razor (and the rest of us) what Razor is thinking. No, I think that enough of us have heard enough conservative opinions regarding what out-of-the-closet homosexuals are and aren't qualified for (such as ambassadorships) to question post 345 without having to resort to calling or thinking someone a hater.

may have installed the first gay chief justice of the supreme court.

Hopefully Canadian Hack is just kidding, since I'm not sure what's sillier, the apparent suggestion that Bush could recognize a closeted gay man or anyone taking Bill Mahr seriously.
 
360Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:39
I strongly agree with the 80%, 52% (depending on the question) and 24% (depending on the question.)

If someone like you, Bili, thinks that equates with hate of gays, or opposing of gays/lesbians for political nominations, then all my explaining of the legal and social issues for 4+ years has gone of naught.

Well, obviously it has gone of naught.

Toral
 
361Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:41
Interesting to see Toral pick up Baldwin's little mind reading hat to tell Razor (and the rest of us) what Razor is thinking.

Rather than sniping, why not tell us what you are thinking. It'll probably be a pretty dumb watered-down-liberal opinion, but why not give it a try?

Toral
 
362biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:45
Who said anything about hate? I can't speak to that. My main interaction with conservatives is within my family, and none of them hate homosexuals as a group (though there are 1 or 2 individuals).

I do think she would face an up-hill battle and lose some support in the senate if she was an openly gay woman.

Do you really think an individual's gender preference, whom 42% of society thinks shouldn't be "accepted", wouldn't face even a modicum of opposition to the highest court in the land?
 
363Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:48
It's difficult to see that the last 4+ years of what this Administration (through the urging of it's more conservative elements) have done with regard to how gays are permitted to interact with each other and with society at large, as being anything other that hateful. I think, Toral, you're trying to split hairs by maintaining that the intent is not hateful, but even that doesn't hold much water.

In any case, the effect is certainly hateful. And that's all that matters to those to whom the laws are directed.
 
364Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:49
357 That came up early. The great blogger Ann Althouse, a moderate, (voted Gore 2000) started it with a suggestion that the NYT had intentionally set up a series of photos to make him look gay.

I don't know enuf about newspapers to comment. Where is Mr Prez?

He did have a girlfriend or 2 in college, who was interviewed, and after that the liberal scum scandal slag hounds dropped the chase. Well, the NYT did try to get his adoption records unsealed, but there are normal people among liberals and they objected so the NYT dropped it.

Gotta say this -- his wife, Jane, for her age, is gorgeous.

Toral
 
365biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:49
Forget confirmation, the more interesting question would be: would she nominated?
 
366Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 14:54
pf 363 Saying that marriage is between a man and a woman is not hateful either in intent or effect against gays.

pd, you are a sloppy minded liberal, and not improving. With a bit of malice in you, and a bit of clear pride, now that you've clearly succeeded and have your fancy house.

Toral
 
367Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:00
Jeez you've got yourself a hermetically-sealed mind, Toral.

"Marriage is between a man and a woman" is a policy intended to prevent same-sex marriages. It's intention is to prevent gays from claiming the financial or societal benefits of marriage. It has no other goal.

Perhaps in your world a policy of preventing others that are unlike you from gaining what you have is not hateful [hate, of course, is what passes for discourse with "liberals."].

I'll grant your technical point, however. Slaveholders probably did not hate their slaves either. The effect wasn't hateful either, I suppose, eh?
 
368Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:06
Do you really think an individual's gender preference, whom 42% of society thinks shouldn't be "accepted", wouldn't face even a modicum of opposition to the highest court in the land?

To be honest, such a person might lose a vote or two (Coburn, Brownback). My guess is that in the end neither would vote their prejudices; they would vote "yes" (for a qualified gay nominee). Can't be sure I'm right -- but I had the last U.S. election within one state, and haven't had a
bad prediction of what conservatives would do yet.

Toral
 
369Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:07
:) Toral, we all had the last US elections within 5 states at most.

:)
 
370Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:10
367 This debate went on in the forum for a long time. To me, it's about strengthening and honouring the social institution of marriage -- which is a difficult thing.

"Marriage is between a man and a woman" is a policy intended to prevent same-sex marriages. It's intention is to prevent gays from claiming the financial or societal benefits of marriage. It has no other goal.

No other goal. Have you told your priest this? Read what your own catechism says about marriage. Read what the late Pope and current Pope says about these issues.

wwwww -- Hey, whistilng a priest. How do we get this pd guy excommunicated?

Toral


 
371Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:11
pd, your predictions have always been useless.
 
372Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:16
Yikes! "wwwww" is the sound of Toral jumping the shark.

Terrible to see a good mind succumb to the hateful tendencies it continues to deny exists within its "pure" form. Ironic, isn't it? You say spiteful things trying to refute an argument that conservatives are, at times, spiteful.

That's a wrap, fellas. Acta est fabula, plaudite!
 
373Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:23
"spiteful". hateful tendencies

You're sensitive, pd. Much too sensitive. Sensitivity can be a good quality.

You think my comments are "spiteful"? Or hateful?

You should read my mind re George Bush, or read what I'm writing on conservative boards.
I'm basically, I think, right around the median for legal conservatives. The median is going out and ripping the Bush/Cheney sticker off the car and vowing never to contribute to the RNC again.

That's the median.

Toral
 
374biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:23
Toral - 360

Could you give me a cliff notes version of what I was suppose to learn about conservative thought from you? That, and how this would effect my opinion in this (purely hypothetical, because overwise she would never have been nominated) circumstance?

I tend to cram for exams at the last minute, and a good tutor helps my grade substantially.
 
375Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:38
bili 374 If you didn't learn why people can support traditional marriage without being anti-gay, then I have failed. If you never learned a drop about conservative thot from me, then I have failed humongously.

I learned a bit about (good) radical thought from you and your links. Thanx.

I also learned a lot about bad radical thot from my bud SZ, who is an openly results-oriented jackass, and has the most evil political beliefs possible. Keep him as far away from any power as possible! for he will misuse it.

I learned from Madman that free-market, states-rights conservatives are incredibly dogmatic and ignore reaL-world results. They too should be kept as far away from political power as possible, and should never be let anywhere near the law.

Toral

 
376Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:39
I'm doing a wrapping-up for this forum here.
 
377Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 15:51
If you never learned a drop about conservative thot from me, then I have failed humongously.

Oh I think most of us have learned plenty from you. Just not what you intended. That's often what happens when elitist pricks talk down to people as they believe they are blessing them with the gift of their wisdom.

Not that you should care, but I'm frequently interested in your perspective and what I can occasionally learn from it. I'm far less interested in what I often learn about you in the process. I imagine you get that a lot.
 
378Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 16:09
I'd actually like to hear more from you on that, MITH. How was I an "elitist prick"? Was I "talking down" to people? I wondered about that. I know that from your job, you prob know a lot about the legal issues discussed. But if I know something, or think I know something, should I pretend I don't?

On legal issues, I stated what I know. There are afew areas about which I know a lot. I never tried to "pull rank" on these issues -- although I could have. On other areas I know nothing and said nothing.

I'm far less interested in what I often learn about you in the process. I imagine you get that a lot.

I get the reverse a lot actually.

So, since you've let out your anger in 377, don't be a coward like Bush. Don't settle for the innuendo. What did you learn from me?

Toral.
 
379Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 16:28
Pat Buchanan:
Miers' Qualifications Are 'Non-Existent'

by Patrick J. Buchanan
Posted Oct 3, 2005

Handed a once-in-a-generation opportunity to return the Supreme Court to constitutionalism, George W. Bush passed over a dozen of the finest jurists of his day -- to name his personal lawyer.

In a decision deeply disheartening to those who invested such hopes in him, Bush may have tossed away his and our last chance to roll back the social revolution imposed upon us by our judicial dictatorship since the days of Earl Warren.

This is not to disparage Harriet Myers. From all accounts, she is a gracious lady who has spent decades in the law and served ably as Bush’s lawyer in Texas and, for a year, as White House counsel.

But her qualifications for the Supreme Court are non-existent. She is not a brilliant jurist, indeed, has never been a judge. She is not a scholar of the law. Researchers are hard-pressed to dig up an opinion. She has not had a brilliant career in politics, the academy, the corporate world or public forum. Were she not a friend of Bush, and female, she would never have even been considered.

What commended her to the White House, in the phrase of the hour, is that she “has no paper trail.” So far as one can see, this is Harriet Miers’ principal qualification for the U.S. Supreme Court.

What is depressing here is not what the nomination tells us of her, but what it tells us of the president who appointed her. For in selecting her, Bush capitulated to the diversity-mongers, used a critical Supreme Court seat to reward a crony, and revealed that he lacks the desire to engage the Senate in fierce combat to carry out his now-suspect commitment to remake the court in the image of Scalia and Thomas. In picking her, Bush ran from a fight. The conservative movement has been had -- and not for the first time by a president by the name of Bush.

Choosing Miers, the president passed over outstanding judges and proven constitutionalists like Michael Luttig of the 4th Circuit and Sam Alito of the 3rd. And if he could not take the heat from the First Lady, and had to name a woman, what was wrong with U.S. appellate court judges Janice Rogers Brown, Priscilla Owens and Edith Jones?

What must these jurists think today about their president today? How does Bush explain to his people why Brown, Owens and Jones were passed over for Miers?

Where was Karl Rove in all of this? Is he so distracted by the Valerie Plame investigation he could not warn the president against what he would be doing to his reputation and coalition?

Reshaping the Supreme Court is an issue that unites Republicans and conservatives And with his White House and party on the defensive for months over Cindy Sheehan and Katrina, Iraq and New Orleans, Delay and Frist, gas prices and immigration, here was the great opportunity to draw all together for a battle of philosophies, by throwing the gauntlet down to the Left, sending up the name of a Luttig, and declaring, “Go ahead and do your worst. We shall do our best.”

Do the Bushites not understand that “conservative judges” is one of those issues where the national majority is still with them?

What does it tell us that White House, in selling her to the party and press, is pointing out that Miers “has no paper trial.” What does that mean, other than that she is not a Rehnquist, a Bork, a Scalia or a Thomas?

Conservative cherish justices and judges who have paper trails. For that means these men and women have articulated and defended their convictions. They have written in magazines and law journals about what is wrong with the courts and how to make it right. They had stood up to the prevailing winds. They have argued for the Constitution as the firm and fixed document the Founding Fathers wrote, not some thing of wax.

A paper trail is the mark of a lawyer, a scholar or a judge who has shared the action and passion of his or her time, taken a stand on the great questions, accepted public abuse for articulating convictions.

Why is a judicial cipher like Harriet Miers to be preferred to a judicial conservative like Edith Jones?

One reason: Because the White House fears nominees “with a paper trail” will be rejected by the Senate, and this White House fears, above all else, losing. So, it has chosen not to fight.

Bush had a chance for greatness in remaking the Supreme Court, a chance to succeed where his Republican precedessors from Nixon to his father all failed. He instinctively recoiled from it. He blew it. His only hope now is that Harriet Miers, if confirmed, will not vote like the lady she replaced, or, worse, like his father’s choice who also had “no paper trail,” David Souter.



 
380Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 16:48
How was I an "elitist prick"? Was I "talking down" to people?

I'd offer more, but it would probably be a pretty dumb watered-down-liberal opinion. Besides, you might point out from my post that I wrongly assume hate someplace where I didn't realize it and I don't think I want to deal with that. So I guess I'm a coward, like Bush. Sorry.
 
381Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 16:56
The one thing I've noticed about you, MITH, -- or the one bad thing about you as a poster, to be blunt --from your posts both here and in the BB forum, is that you have a huge temper. Most volcanic temper of any forum member, I would think. Verges on "Spasmatic" area I would say. You seem to froth up and go wild, and then 30 minutes later you are back to yourself again.

I still invite your responses to 380, at your own time and leisure.

Toral
 
382biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 17:27
I know that people can be pro-marriage and not anti-gay, so you can rest easy that you have not failed completly. I also know that they are frequently, though not always (as I said), both pro-marriage and anti-gay.

There are plenty of things people can do to solidify marriage that has nothing to do with homosexuality. In fact, almost everything that can be done to solidify heterosexual marriages has nothing to do with homosexuality.

This is all besides the point, however. I doubt you would deny that those who are against gay marriage are much more likely to feel that a lesbian would be "unacceptable" as a US Supreme Court Justice, though I do admit that the last two statistics I quote are probably more telling than the first.
 
383Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 18:10
And bili your point is....
 
384biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 18:22
to reiterate and reassure.
 
385Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 19:03
Chuck Schumer is gloating now on PBS. And rightly so. He and his kind has won a big victory.

The sickest thing about this process is that Democrats will still skewer Meiers re cronyism and everything they can find.

This appointment is a big win for the Dems' filibuster-qualified-appellate-judges strategy.

It makes me sick. The Democrats drove Miguel Estrada's wife to suicide...and this is their reward?

Toral
 
386Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 20:47
Bush's ideal court.
 
387Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 21:09
My respect for Ann Coulter goes up to 9.5. She predicted the Bush/Rove betrayal last week and I laughed.

Joke's on us I guess.

Herewith Ann:
BOB SHRUM WITH A GOOD CAUSE
September 28, 2005


Now Bush has Sandra Day O'Connor's seat to fill. For those conservatives confident that Bush won't betray them, let's review Bush's other ideas about what constitutes a good Republican.

In 2002, Bush backed liberal Richard Riordan in the Republican gubernatorial primary in California against conservative Bill Simon. This triggered a series of events that culminated in Arnold Schwarzenegger becoming the governor of California. But I don't think even liberals would claim Karl Rove had a plan for California voters to elect Democrat Gray Davis, erupt in a rage at him, and demand a recall election in which a famous Hollywood actor would enter the race and beat the sitting governor.

In 2004, Bush backed liberal Republican Arlen Specter over conservative Pat Toomey in the Republican Senate primary in Pennsylvania. Bush still lost Pennsylvania and, worst of all, Specter won. So that worked out well.

In 2004, Bush backed Mel Martinez for the open Senate seat in Florida and asked the magnificent Katherine Harris not to run against him, so she graciously bowed out. Martinez has since called on Bush to shut down Guantanamo. What's Spanish for "buyer's remorse"?

This year, rumors have it that Bush is again discouraging the magnificent Harris not to run for the Senate. Here's hoping she ignores him. How much would Bush's support be worth to Harris at this point anyway? If Bush really wants to keep Katherine Harris out of the U.S. Senate, maybe he should just endorse her.

It's not like Bush owes Harris or anything. If Harris were as pathetic as the typical Republican supported by Bush, she would have defied the law during the 2000 election crisis and proclaimed Gore the winner just to get the media to love her. Gore would be president now, and Harris would have her own show on MSNBC. I'd be storing away all my summer burkas and, accompanied by a male relative, taking my winter burkas to the dry cleaners to be freshened up.

Also this year, Bush is backing developmentally-disabled Lincoln Chafee over the only Republican in the race, Stephen Laffey, Harvard MBA and mayor of Cranston, RI. Chafee opposes Bush on taxes, Iraq, abortion and gay marriage. This man is literally too stupid to know he's a Democrat. If Chafee hadn't inherited hundreds of millions of dollars, he would be living in a shack tending weeds. In the last election, Chafee famously refused to vote for Bush, instead writing in Bush's father.

What is Bush getting out of this again? Is this the masterstroke of that Machiavellian genius Karl Rove?

Karl Rove is Bob Shrum with a good cause. (Shrum has run eight presidential campaigns; number won: 0, number lost: 8.) Bush calls Rove the "architect" of his 2004 victory. In 2004, America was at war and the Democrats ran a gigolo to be commander in chief. The nation hasn't changed so much since Reagan was president that the last election should have even been close.

Whenever the nation is threatened by external enemies, the only way Democrats can win a presidential election is with another Watergate. And yet Bush nearly lost the last election. He would have lost, but for the Swiftboat Veterans — also dissed by Bush.

The "architect" of victory was nearly the architect of Bush's defeat when he advised Bush to come out for gay civil unions one week before the election. In terms of generating enthusiasm, this was the campaign equivalent of a teacher assigning homework late on a Friday afternoon. Judging by the results of more than a dozen elections where gay marriage was on the ballot last year, gay marriage is about as popular in this country as a day celebrating Hitler's birthday would be. (It is even less popular than the idea of John Kerry as commander in chief in wartime!)

If Ronald Reagan were running today, Rove would have Bush endorse Reagan's opponent. Establishment Republicans all pretend to have seen Reagan's genius at the time, but that's a crock. They wanted to dump Reagan in favor of "electable" Gerald Ford and "electable" George Herbert Walker Bush.

Newsweek reported in 1976 that Republican "party loyalists" thought Reagan would produce "a Goldwater-style debacle." This is why they nominated well-known charismatic vote magnet Jerry Ford instead.

Again in 1980, a majority of Republican committeemen told U.S. News and World Report that future one-termer George "Read My Lips" Bush was more "electable" than Reagan.

The secret to Reagan's greatness was he didn't need a bunch of high-priced Bob Shrums to tell him what Americans thought. He knew because of his work with General Electric, touring the country and meeting real Americans. Two months a year for eight years, Reagan would give up to 25 speeches a day at G.E. plants — a "marination in middle America," as one G.E. man put it. Reagan himself said, "I always thought Hollywood had the wrong idea of the average American, and the G.E. tours proved I was right."

Because of these tours, Reagan knew — as he calmly told fretful advisers after the Grenada invasion — "You can always trust Americans." The G.E. tours completely immunized Reagan from the counsel of people like Karl Rove, who think the average American is a big-business man who just wants his taxes cut and doesn't care about honor, country, marriage or the unborn.

Reagan knew that this a great country. If only today's Republicans would believe it.

 
389Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 00:39
She is always so clear and indisputably correct. It is inexcusable that common sense is so uncommon when the way to understanding is so clearly marked.
 
390Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 00:51
It has been a LONG time, a LONG time since a president of the United States has done something that made me jump up and down for joy, but I was giddy today, like a schoolgirl. I don't remember the last time that I have read so many conservative commentators, agreed completely, and laughed at my own good fortune. Toral's lament is deep and heartfelt. When hurt, Toral gets nasty.

post 345: Conservatives don't care about sexual orientation. If Miers were a legal conservative, and outed herself as a flaming proud lesbian during the hearings, she wouldn't lose an ounce of conservative support.

This is true. If Janice Rodgers Brown was a lesbian, Conservatives would not care. However, there are no famous, top-flight conservative legal minds who are from the isle of Lesbos and that is not an accident. His second sentence is also true, but misses the point - Miers is not necessarily a legal conservative, so if it became known that she is a lesbian, conservatives WILL use that to try to end her hopes at confirmation.

Post 378: How was I an "elitist prick"?

Please. You have gone from "supreme intellectual tutor" to playing dumb in 3.5 seconds.

Examples - 360 Well, obviously it has gone of naught.

361 It'll probably be a pretty dumb watered-down-liberal opinion, but why not give it a try?

366 (and inexcusably nasty in my mind) pd, you are a sloppy minded liberal, and not improving. With a bit of malice in you, and a bit of clear pride, now that you've clearly succeeded and have your fancy house.

368 Can't be sure I'm right -- but I had the last U.S. election within one state, and haven't had a bad prediction of what conservatives would do yet. Even if true, and it's not, insufferable self-aggrandizement.

370 wwwww -- Hey, whistilng a priest. How do we get this pd guy excommunicated?

371 pd, your predictions have always been useless. Crass.

375 bili 374. If you didn't learn why people can support traditional marriage without being anti-gay, then I have failed. If you never learned a drop about conservative thot from me, then I have failed humongously.

378 On legal issues, I stated what I know. There are afew areas about which I know a lot. I never tried to "pull rank" on these issues -- although I could have. Pull rank? What "rank"? For all we know, you are some disabled kid ranting and raving from his parent's basement in a poor suburb of Toronto. You've got a lot ot learn regarding making positive impressions upon people and earning their respect.

Perhaps if you stick around a while you will learn some manners.

P.S. I loved post 343
 
391Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 01:15
I was waiting for SZ to weigh in -- my day wouldn't be complete without it.

Apparently I've pissed a lot of liberals off over ? years with
an -- arrogant? all-knowing? whatever tone. I'm genuinely sorry about this, in the sense that I welcome debate. I wish that the aggrieved liberals would just have told me this before. Whatever way -- "Put a sock in it, Toral", would have been enough.

You've got a lot ot learn regarding making positive impressions upon people and earning their respect. Perhaps if you stick around a while you will learn some manners.

This from SZ, whose long arrogance of manner has made him the most despised person in manner on this board, the baseball board, and who knows how many other boards! I know Zen is detached from reality, but if he thinks I am arrogant -- I clearly have had a problem. I never even remotely considered the possibility that I was considered to be a kind of arrogant jerk like SZ. SZ has been called out as an arrogant jerk dozens of times by people of all persuausions on this and the baseball board. And never changed his behaviour a whit nor indicated any regret whatsover. I am not as tough as SZ -- I acknowledge that. I haven't been so called out, or if it was, I missed it in my arrogance.

Actually I've been as nice on these boards as any person should be expected to be, and taken humongous numbers of insults in good spirit. St. Francis of Assisi couldn't be any nicer than I have been -- and he was preaching to a smarter audience. (BdB).

Toral

 
392Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 01:31
When in doubt, invent opposition outcry
 
393Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 01:40
Amen.

The RNC are a bunch of lying scum. Most people on conservative sites cancelled their pre-approved donations to the RNC immediately upon hearing the news, and I doubt that the RNC will ever get another donation by a conservative.

I suspect there's a lot of fraud in the RNC -- defalcation of money, etc. This "Mehlman" is clearly a hack. He deserves jail time IMO.

There will be a lot of good information slipped under the doors of Democrats, liberals, police and prosecutors in brown manila envelopes the next few months.

I only hope you folks make good use of it. For once.

Preach on, Brother PermDude!

Toral

 
394Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 01:44
I think that a lot of real thought will go into and through Republican groups in the next few months. Much as I hate to say it, this could give a decent boost to guys like Santorum who have no trouble staying hard right.

Bush is merely showing himself to be the Al Gore/Rudy Guiliani-like moderate that he always was. I genuinely don't understand surprise over this from conservatives. Anguish over two missed penalty kicks, sure. But Bush's moderate leanings aren't something he's ever really shied away from.
 
395Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 01:58
Santorum will lose by 10 points, just as you said.

Conservatives are saying Bush lied to us because he promised to nominate judges like Scalia and Thomas. Actually Bush never promised that; he just said that on the current court, he admired Scalia and Thomas most. (And Bush knows nothing whatsoever about the law.)

Bush did say he would nominate strict constructionists, people who would not "legislate from the bench". He surrounded himself with solid legal conservatives (or maybe they surrounded him).

His willingness to fight over, and break if necessary, the Dem filibuster over Pryor, Owen and Rogers Brown seemed like proof of his credentials.

Put it this way: if he had said in 1999/2000 that he would nominate a person like Harriet Miers, he would never have won the nomination; he would have immediately been dismissed as a lightweight.

Maybe legal conservatives fooled ourselves. Don't know. Lot of conservative introspection coming.

Toral

 
396walk
      ID: 236779
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 08:49
I remember Toral, when for no reason whatsoever, you branded all NYers as "arrogant" and something even worse; this goes back a bit. I was stunned, as I've never really said a bad word about you or for that matter anyone -- but that crack hit me...so, no, you are not as nice as st. somethingorother. Not in my opinion. Two minutes for fraudulent self-promotion.

;-)
walk
 
397walk
      ID: 236779
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 08:53
I am enjoying this nomination though. It's funny to see the reaction from the conservative right. Jon Stewart's show last night making fun of Bush's endorsement of Miers was really funny. The frozen still shots of Bush's face constantly shown over and over were brutal, but really funny. The whole nomination does seem kinda like a 3rd and long situation, and he runs the ball up the middle. I'll take it as a fan of the other team though.

- walk
 
398walk
      ID: 236779
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 08:58
NYTimes Article on Bush Avoiding a Fight

Trifecta!

- walk
 
399Sludge
      ID: 14411118
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 09:09
366 (and inexcusably nasty in my mind)

Bwahahahahaha...

Pot.
Kettle.
Black.

Look it up.
 
400Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 13:07
396 Well, it's true you've never said a bad word about anybody as I can recall. If I said "arrogant NYCers" that was a crack as part of the friendly jibes between NYC and most everywhere else. It doesn't apply to you, and if I should make a NYC jibe in the future, please consider yourself exempted.

Toral
 
401biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 13:48
What's going on here? What you, trying to immasculate our Canadian friend?

For what it's worth, I like your mean streak, Toral, and attempt (though not always successfully) to interpret most of your comments in the spirit of nastiness tinged with jibe, so that I don't let myself get too riled-up over them.

It's not generally in my nature to return these quips in kind, but I occasionally try, with limited success.
 
402hoops boy
      ID: 4792539
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 17:40
Quick question... why do liberals like Harriet Meyers so much? Is it because they are just happy to dodge a fight on someone who was much more conservative? ISTM they don't know any more about her than Repubs.... and her qualifications can't be the model libs would like followed for future appointments... so why are all the libs here so happy? Is it just partisanship and an indifference to whether this is actually a good nominee for the country? Do they like to see cronyism reward at every turn? I don't get it.
 
403Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 18:03
Liberals are happy because conservatives are pissed at the selection. They also know that she's not a Scalia or even a Thomas.
 
404Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Tue, Oct 04, 2005, 21:40
399

Well, yes, as they say - It takes one to know one.
 
405biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 02:12
The more I read about this thoroughly average nelly, the more disgusted I am at the choice. I do admit to a certain initial satisfaction at knife being thrust into the backs of conservatives and libertarians everywhere who thought for the last 5 years that Dubya was there boy. Hopefully they all see with stark clarity what a clown, sham and travesty of a president they wrought upon the country and the world.

I am over that now, however, and mourn for the lost integrity of our once great government.
 
406Tree
      ID: 1992256
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 08:29
I am over that now, however, and mourn for the lost integrity of our once great government.

bili - you're just now mourning?

Bush and his supporters, both behind the scenes and in the voting booth, have made a mockery of our country.

this is a man that has brough cronyism to new levels - at least when other presidents did similiar things, there was some qualification to the cronies.

he has brought hatred and dislike of this country to new levels, and he's shown that human life, both on an environmental scale, as well as a military scale, mean nothing when compared to the almighty dollar.

and now, he's threatening to use military force to ensure quarantine's in other nations??
 
407Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 08:54
Conservative opposition reading for the morning:

Michelle Malkin
Bainbridge
More David Frum
 
408hoops boy
      ID: 4792539
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 09:10
Conservative support reading for the morning:
Beldar Blog

Also have you heard the news claiming that this gal is into the whole evangelical movement, and has attend several anti-abortion dinners over the years? No links yet, but I'm guessing they are out there...
 
409Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 09:18
Yes, she is an evangelical Christian and some misguided conservatives are trying to drum up support for her on that basis.

This makes the whole thing worse from the perspective of legal conservatives. She's an evangelical Christian, and pro-life. So what? What does that have to do with her qualifications and suitability? Nothing.

A lot of those who aren't devout and non-believers are very distrustful (or worse) of Bush's views on the place of religion already. Now they've been given good reason to be.

Toral
 
410Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 09:27
To top things off, she's a rotten writer too (from link):
Yet if these are representative examples of Harriet Miers' writings, she will be among the least able writers to serve on the Court in recent years. In my opinion, the majority of students whom I supervise for independent senior research projects at Northwestern Law write better prose than the passages published in the Texas Lawyer under Harriet Miers' name.


 
411Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 10:14
Is that really surprising to anyone? I heard a reporter ask Scott McClellan if Miers was a top student in school, and if she garnered any honors like magna cum laude or was on the law review. McClellan responded by saying that he'll find and release those documents, and that he's "sure" that she performed well in school. Typically, these academic accomplishments are already out there and well known. I have to think that if they aren't out there already, she never had them to begin with. Though Roberts is a conservative, many liberals did not object to him on account of his superb credentials. Miers doesn't have that.
 
412Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 10:59
405

Bili, I am at a loss, why are you upset? Do you really want Bush to nominate a Luttig or McConnell, superb credentials, brilliant minds, unfathomable ability to destroy this country's liberal agenda.

These conservatives want to use a conservative SCOTUS as a sword to slay years of progressive decisions and laws that the rest of the civilized world take for granted. All of the things that you hate about this administration, its theocratic dogma, its distane for personal privacy and civil rights, property rights as sacrament, would be reined upon us from on high for decades if Scalia and Thomas had a solid five vote block.

We couldn't expect GW to pull an Eisenhower and nominate someone as great as my favorite justice, William Brennan, one of the greatest justices of all time. All we really could ask for was a minimization of damage. Hopefully, that's what we'll get with Miers.
 
413soxzeitgeist
      ID: 478242110
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:04
To the conservatives here who feel betrayed, misled and disappointed by this nomination: welcome to the party! There's a whole 49.999% of the country (and seemingly 99.999% of the world community) that has been getting the shaft by this idiot and his administration for the last 6 years.

Schantenfreude aside though, I believe that this nomination (if it goes through) poses real concerns for those of us who don't want to end up in a defacto theocracy in our (or our childrens) lifetimes.
She's an evangelical Christian, and pro-life. So what? What does that have to do with her qualifications and suitability? Nothing.
I'll grant you that the two have nothing to do with her qualifications, toral, but as to her suitability, I think the two are proportionally important, with her faith being a legitimate question. Not only is there no judicial record by which we can measure Ms. Miers, but the one thing that both sides are citing - her born again evangelical beliefs - are troubling for every citizen who isn't like minded in their religious views. After all - her personal (evangelical) belief system requires a submissiveness to "gods law" that supercedes even her allegiance to the Constitution. How can we expect her to be a strict constructionist and not "legislate from the bench" when cases dealing with sweeping social policy ramifications are brought before the SCOTUS? And while this may not cause the baldwins or torals of the world to lose sleep at night, it is a nightmare for those of us who believe in Freedom of Choice - and I'm not just talking about abortion.

The christian Right elite have built one organization after another, with the avowed purpose of winning power - the power to influence (if not dictate by fiat) public policy. And that policy offers little by way of choice for those folks who aren't "christians" themselves. This isn't the christianity I learned about growing up - and it certainly isn't the christianity Jesus envisioned when he turned the other cheek, embraced society's poorest and least desirable, and repeatedly refused the mantle of secular power. I'm pretty sure that a $2.5 billion per year net religious broadcasting industry wasn't what he had in mind.

For evangelicals, one of the most politically relevant tenets is the idea that they are being persecuted by secular society (sound familiar, baldwin?). Translated into right-wing politics, the theme enables people to claim that queers and other minorities are somehow attacking the dominant culture when they demand equality. We have the most powerful political movement in the country continually claiming to be persecuted by "the left". It's illogical, but the religious persecution theme keeps activists mobilized and enables them to feel comfortable about trying to deprive other people of their civil rights.

Anyhow, I've gone way off my point - and while Ms. Miers may be a great lawyer and (yet another) great Bush family suck up, the SCOTUS isn't the place for political patronage based on how obsequious one can be.
 
414Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:10
sox, not all evangelicals feel persecuted. But it's a good question to ask.

Miers is going to be one of those justices that is apt to be the very opposite kind of judge as was expected by the person nominating them.
 
415Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:12
personal (evangelical) belief system requires a submissiveness to "gods law" that supercedes even her allegiance to the Constitution.

Not in the sense that she would follow natural law over the Constitution. That shouldn't be a concern (assuming that the beliefs of her Church are a guide to her own). Situation not really any different than it is for a devour Roman Catholic like Roberts.
 
416soxzeitgeist
      ID: 478242110
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:15
True, pd - and the sweeping generality should have been better thought out and phrased, but I think the point is sound; ie: that the people who may very well be the most powerful special interest group in the country spin a fabulous tale of "woe is me".
 
417Mark L
      ID: 47914313
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:23
This all reminds me of Senator Hruska's defense of the Harold Carswell appoinment in the early 70s, which I believe was something along the lines of "Mediocre people deserve some representation on the Supreme Court too."
 
418Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:27
Heh heh.

Sox, there's little difference between the "woe is me" of some evangelicals and "woe is me" of some racialists. Unlike some on the Left, of the two I'd prefer someone who at leaves gives cursory belief that ultimate truth lies somewhere above and outside of their own intellect and their role is to seek it out.
 
419Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:32
No kidding. From The Corner.

Hruskadamas
[Mark R. Levin 10/04 04:26 PM]
Well, today the mediocre are well represented on the Supreme Court. Hruska was a visionary.

Re: Hruskaism
[Matthew J. Franck 10/04 03:54 PM]
Here are the immortal words to which Gerry Bradley alluded, spoken by Senator Roman Hruska in support of the Carswell nomination (hat tip to the inestimable Henry Abraham, in whose history of Court nominations I found this):

"Even if he is mediocre there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren't they, and a little chance? We can't have all Brandeises, Cardozos, and Frankfurters, and stuff like that there."


Hruskaism
[Gerard V. Bradley 10/04 03:01 PM]
I fear that my friend and former colleague Doug Kmiec is coming down with a mild case of Hruskaism. "Hruskaism" is the diagnosis whenever the apologist tries too hard to turn a candidate's weaknesses into strengths. Hruska tried to do it for G. Harold Carswell, Nixon's ill-fated nominee for a high Court seat for which he previously nominated Clement Haynesworht. Roman Hruska was a Pepublican Senator from Nebraska for thirty-two years. He did not secure his place in American political history, however, until 1970. That is when he rose to defend Carswell against critics who said he was a "mediocre" judge (which Carswell undoubtedly was). Hruska exclaimed that many people are mediocre, and that they deserved to be represented on the Court, too.

Kmiec tries too hard to make a virtue out of what appears to many of us to be a weakness in Harriet Miers' nomination: her lack of discernible philosophical commitments, both substantively (what does she think about the justice of affirmative action or abortion?) and more strictly legally (what is her theory of constitutional interpretation?). This might not be so bad if we could count on hearing a lot about both at her upcoming hearings. But we won't.

Kmiec would make a virtue even out of Miers' innocence of almost all things constitutional. Her "hard work" will make up for it, and maybe it is better to have some from outside the "judicial monastery" anyway. Must be; even Pat Leahy suggested it. But perhaps it would have been better still to pick someone who was both worldly and constitutionally sophisticated. Like maybe even a law professor, or a Senator.
"Conservatives" are "whini[ing]" on the blogs, Doug reports, about how little Ms. Miers knows of constitutional law. That this will make her even a better Justice, Doug holds. Why? Because then she will be all the more an impartial judicial "umpire" — here citing John Roberts' ironic description of what judges are called upon to do in constitutional cases. But what if the umpire for today's game should be heard to ask the batboy, "Where is home plate"?....Maybe Chance the Gardener (Peter Sellers' character in the movie Being There) deserves a spot on the Court, too.

 
421Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:43
From Goerge Will:

Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that Miers's nomination resulted from the president's careful consultation with people capable of such judgments. If 100 such people had been asked to list 100 individuals who have given evidence of the reflectiveness and excellence requisite in a justice, Miers's name probably would not have appeared in any of the 10,000 places on those lists.

In addition, the president has forfeited his right to be trusted as a custodian of the Constitution. The forfeiture occurred March 27, 2002, when, in a private act betokening an uneasy conscience, he signed the McCain-Feingold law expanding government regulation of the timing, quantity and content of political speech. The day before the 2000 Iowa caucuses he was asked — to ensure a considered response from him, he had been told in advance that he would be asked — whether McCain-Feingold's core purposes are unconstitutional. He unhesitatingly said, "I agree." Asked if he thought presidents have a duty, pursuant to their oath to defend the Constitution, to make an independent judgment about the constitutionality of bills and to veto those he thinks unconstitutional, he briskly said, "I do."

It is important that Miers not be confirmed unless, in her 61st year, she suddenly and unexpectedly is found to have hitherto undisclosed interests and talents pertinent to the court's role. Otherwise the sound principle of substantial deference to a president's choice of judicial nominees will dissolve into a rationalization for senatorial abdication of the duty to hold presidents to some standards of seriousness that will prevent them from reducing the Supreme Court to a private plaything useful for fulfilling whims on behalf of friends.

The wisdom of presumptive opposition to Miers's confirmation flows from the fact that constitutional reasoning is a talent — a skill acquired, as intellectual skills are, by years of practice sustained by intense interest. It is not usually acquired in the normal course of even a fine lawyer's career. The burden is on Miers to demonstrate such talents, and on senators to compel such a demonstration or reject the nomination.


I will never vote for a non-lawyer ticket for preseident again. Ever.
 
422Tree
      ID: 1992256
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:54
this is basically what those who voted for Bush specifically asked for when they gave him his self-decreed "mandate"...

when you vote for a liar, you are going to get, ultimately, a liar.
 
423Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 11:59
Oh, I don't know about that. Bush never lied about SCOTUS nominees, and it's not a lie to misbelieve him and to call him out when he doesn't meet those misbeliefs.

Ultimately this is a Texas crony pick. We've little reason to believe Miers won't be a middling moderate justice of little note in the end.
 
424Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 12:09
I don't see what Mirer has in common with Coulter's opinion of Bush's "ideas about what constitutes a good Republican". I guess she was right in that Bush has failed to appease his constituancy (and the rest of us) with a nominee who's qualifications we could be confident in, but the more specific premise of Ann's column was that Bush would betray them in favor of someone who would pander to the left. I don't see that in her at all.
 
425Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 12:11
Given Coulter's low bar of "pandering to the Left" you can certain see how she would write that. Anyone who doesn't turn to the left and spit when they see a Dem is pandering in her view.
 
426Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 12:12
This is what it must have been like back when they had every grade taught in the same one room schoolhouse.

You are so out of your league here, Tree.

...they gave him his self-decreed "mandate"

Huh?

Before we 'ultimately get a liar' what do we get in the meantime?

Or maybe this is how it will be when the PC force us to combine the special olympics with the olympics.

 
427Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 12:15
I think Ann might say that weaker minds drift to the Left, as will Miers, regardless of what promises she's whispered in Bush's ear regarding her Constitutional principles.
 
428Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 12:19
Baldwin comes out of retirement for a drive-by out of Toral's playbook.
 
429Tree
      ID: 1992256
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 13:10
You are so out of your league here, Tree.

...they gave him his self-decreed "mandate"

Huh?

Before we 'ultimately get a liar' what do we get in the meantime?

Or maybe this is how it will be when the PC force us to combine the special olympics with the olympics.


sorry Baldwin - didn't realize the inbreeding made you *that* dim.

1. Bush claimed he had a mandate after he was elected. and he wasn't talking about Jeff what's his name.

2. what do you get in the meantime? where should i start?
 
430J-Bar
      ID: 56959410
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 13:19
Genius, pure genius.

Polls are slipping for President, nominate unknown, Dems can't really argue so they agree, Reps are furious and disagree which allows them to get out from under Bush's coat tails, the Reps are now the savers of the SCOTUS from unqualified people and can be re-elected.

How can anyone doubt the man that the MSM says can call up natural disasters when needed? Masterful plan by a mastermind that has no equal. Lex Luther would be jealous.
 
431Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 13:27
Okay. Wait until the Republicans you claim won't back Bush do so en masse.

The best thing for the Dems to do would be to shut up for a while. On some level, the Democrats have to want this nomimee confirmed for fear of getting a more conservative nominee if rejected, but they can't look ridiculously partisan by promoting her just to spite the hard Right. Harry Reid's speech yesterday was as absurd as Bush's claim that Meier was the best candidate in all of America. Let the GOP fight themselves and stay out of the way.
 
432Tree
      ID: 2948511
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 13:50
her history shows some interesting beliefs, and they cross party lines.

pro gun rights, seemingly pro gay civil rights, seemingly anti-choice, seemingly against such things as the Patriot Act.

granted, many of these are based on opinions from 10 to 15 years ago, but it is an interesting window.
 
433Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 13:59
Peggy Noonan likes her.
 
434Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 14:07
seemingly pro gay civil rights

Not according to Molly Ivins:


She ran for city council in 1989 as a moderate, but struggled during her interview with the lesbian/gay coalition. (At the time, it would have been considered progressive to even show up.) The Dallas Police Department did not then hire gays or lesbians, and when asked about the policy, Miers replied the department should hire the best-qualified people, the classic political sidestep answer.
When pressed, she said she did believe one should be able to legally discriminate against gays, and it is the recollection of two of the organization's officers that the response involved her religious beliefs.


I know, Molly Ivins, the Ann Coulter of the left. When it comes to Texas politics, though, she has tremendous insight.
 
435Tree
      ID: 2948511
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 14:31
interesting, as this article says Miers filled out a survey from the group in her successful campaign for the city council in which she favored equal civil rights for gays and said the city had a responsibility to pay for
AIDS education and patient services. She opposed repeal of the Texas sodomy statute — a law later overturned by the court on which she will sit if confirmed.


which hints toward some equality, as long as they don't have sex.

maybe she is a republican of the truest Bushian beliefs - say one thing, mean another, then say the other, but mean yet another. if it can fool half the country in presidential elections, why not congress?
 
436walk
      ID: 236779
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 14:38
Thanks for the exemption, Toral. Jibes are fine by me...

I like the article here by Maureen Dowd in today's NY Times' editorial.

- walk
 
437Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 14:49
If James Dobson (who apparently knows her well) says Miers' positions on gay rights are aligned with his own, that should be enough to know where she stands.

Agape Press
Dobson also took time during his broadcast to address recent allegations that Miss Miers, in the late 1980s, had voiced support for homosexual rights and financially supported the presidential campaign of Democrat Al Gore. Dobson noted that in a 1989 survey Miers said she supported equal, not special, rights for homosexuals -- a stand consistent with his own beliefs, said Dobson; and in the same survey also state she did not support repeal of the Texas sodomy law, a statute that was later overturned by the Supreme Court in Lawrence v. Texas.
 
438Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 14:52
Dobson appears to be one of the few conservatives of note who is willing to give the President the benefit of the doubt on his pick.
 
439Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 15:17
More from the Agape link:
But aside from Miers' apparent stand on hot-button social issues, Dr. Dobson spent ample time explaining why he believes President Bush ought to be trusted on his selection of the former head of the Texas State Bar. Thus far, he said, the president has been true to his campaign promise to place conservative, strict constructionist judges on the federal bench. So the ministry founder wonders why -- with his political legacy hinging so heavily on his judicial appointments -- would the president "sabotage" that legacy with an appointment inconsistent with his own tenets.

"It would contradict his basic philosophical beliefs," said Dobson. And lest he be accused of being a "shill" for the president, Dobson noted that he does not agree with every policy coming out of the White House, such as how to deal with illegal immigration. But as far as the Miers nomination is concerned, he said, "I believe in trusting this president at this time."
 
440Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 15:30
Unless he gets two more SCOTUS appointments, the war in Iraq will be this President's legacy, not his two appointees.
 
441biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 16:06
RE: SZ 412

I guess I would rather have a judge steeped in experiences and careful thought about constitutional issues. At least there you have the chance that he/she won't simply a be partisan hack, and might rule favorably for the left on theoretical grounds (I thinking Ashcroft v. Raich here).

Now we likely have someone who will simply glom onto another judge, maybe Thomas as the only judge who may be able to speak slowly enough for her to understand his constitutional stance.

Or worse, a judge who when confronted with any question just asks herself "What would Our Lord, Jesus Christ Do?" Or worse: "What would that hunky go-getter Dubya do?"

This woman could be on the court for 30 years or more. What a travesty.
 
442Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 16:32
She's 60 years old already. I doubt she'll serve into her 90's. That's one of the conservatives' gripes with her.

My biggest complaint about her is that she's not at all experienced in the type and level of law we are talking about. If you're not going to have any experience as a judge, the least you could have is some experience in front of the Supreme Court. The charge of cronyism is not at all unfounded, and I think George Will's "100 lists of 100" comment sums up the situation pretty accurately.
 
443biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 18:17
I can only hope, Razor. The truly incompetent always seem to live forever, and someone born in the 40s has a signifantly longer life-expectancy than someone who was born (like Renquist who served into his 80s) in the 1920s. Medical miracles might keep her mediocre brain-on-a-stick making deplorable decisions for 200 years. Who knows what medical miracles are right around the corner.
 
444Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 18:29
You've only yourself to blame for that, bili.
 
445Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 05, 2005, 18:52
437 Dobson doesn't know her well, if at all. He knows people who know her well, well, and has received assurances from them. In particular he has received assurances from Karl Rove. If I were a liberal, I'd be very interested in what those assurances were. He has said "I can't reveal it all, because I do know things that I'm privy to that I can't describe, because of confidentiality."

Oh, and if Armando at the Daily Kos is right about what Dobson said today on his radio show, he may be changing his mind.

Toral
 
446Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:06
433 Couldn't see the Noonan article without registering yesterday so didn't bother. However getting through today the story of the article IMO is not "Noonan likes her" but "Noonan dumps on the pick":
the Meirs pick was another administration misstep. The president misread the field, the players, their mood and attitude. He called the play, they looked up from the huddle and balked. And debated. And dissed. Momentum was lost. The quarterback looked foolish.
The president would have been politically better served by what Pat Buchanan called a bench-clearing brawl. A fractious and sparring base would have come together arm in arm to fight for something all believe in: the beginning of the end of command-and-control liberalism on the U.S. Supreme Court. Senate Democrats, forced to confront a serious and principled conservative of known stature, would have damaged themselves in the fight. If in the end President Bush lost, he'd lose while advancing a cause that is right and doing serious damage to the other side. Then he could come back to win with the next nominee. And if he won he'd have won, rousing his base and reminding them why they're Republicans.

He didn't do that. Why didn't he? Old standard answer: In time of war he didn't want to pick a fight with Congress that he didn't have to pick. Obvious reply: So in time of war he picks a fight with his base? Also: The Supreme Court isn't the kind of fight you "don't have to pick." History picks it for you. You fight.


and, if you read to the end, "Noonan isn't even sure Miers should be confirmed":
I don't think it's important to show loyalty to the president by backing his decision. This choice will live beyond his presidency. It's important to get a justice who will add to the wisdom of the court, who will make it more likely that America will get a fair hearing before the bench.

Would she? I don't know, you don't know, the president who appointed her doesn't know.
Toral
 
447Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:13
The period life table for 2001 used by the Social Security actuaries suggests that an average woman aged 60 would have 23.06 years remaining, on average. I don't know the mortality improvement assumptions imbedded in that table, but my sense is that the Social Security Actuaries have been excessively conservative with mortality improvement estimates, indicating that an average woman might very well live longer than that.

Secondly and more critically, those are averages. She is presumably a woman in extraordinary health (to do the job she has done for the past 6 years), unmarried (?), with a family history of longevity. This could *substantially* increase her expected remaining life span. I wouldn't want to bet against her reaching 90. The only question is whether she is like O'Connor and willing to retire to family or like Rhenquist/Stevens and has a "from my dead cold hands" attitude.

Of course, a woman aged 50 would have an additional 9+ years of expected life, so a 50-year old version of Miers would have been even more "effective".

We need to pass a 20-year term limit on Court appointees.

As to Miers herself, any Democrat who believes that you can work intimately with George W. Bush, declare him the smartest man you know, and then significantly diverge from his *policy* views is more delusional than the average Dem. Harry Reid hasn't provided substantive reasons for his happiness any more detailed than GWB has offered reasons for her nomination.

Bottom line, Miers is conservative, probably a social conservative not terribly interested in overturning liberal Kelo or Raich decisions. What Dems seem to be missing is that her seemingly primary qualification is her religious faith (at least this has been noted repeatedly as important). Dem glee in not facing an OMO intellectual heavy-weight is likely predicated on a willful ignorance of what just might have been nominated to the Court. I'm glad to see Republicans expressing concern; I wish Dems would join them. I'd expect to see Reps split so far given the suspicious circumstances. The fact the "opposition" party is split, as well, is just downright disheartening. If Democrats ever wondered why libertarians don't swing that way, you don't have to wonder any longer.

(And note: this is not to say that I am opposed to her confirmation, only to say that the evidence presented thusfar has been woefully inadequate.).
 
448Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:16
Ah, crap. The 23.06 years remaining for a 60 year old is a LOWER BOUND because it does NOT consider mortality improvements *at all*. I wrote "Period" but didn't read it. Dang. I thought it was a cohort life table. Sorry.

She'll make it to 90, barring accident.
 
449Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:22
I don't think Democrats ever wondered by libertarians don't swing that way.

Dems are pleased she's not another Thomas. There's no evidence she'll be an excellent jurist, but there's no evidence she won't be crappy either. Her relationship with Bush aside for a moment, her judicial philosophy is more apt to be shaped by her forthcoming judicial experience, not by the soon-to-be-departed Bush. She may, as has been noted, latch onto a current jurist. But she won't latch onto Bush anymore.

 
450Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:27
I would guess that if she "latched on" to anyone, it would be Roberts. Just a guess.
 
451Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:30
Well, it could be worse, I suppose.

Maybe I'm just being optimistic in thinking that predictions of her awfullness are premature, and that the argument mostly depends upon who would have gotten picked instead of her.
 
452Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:32
Well done, Madman. Way to spin this into an attack on the innocent bystanders.

As for the "latching on" theory, I don't think she's smart enough to keep up with Roberts. She may try to, but her arguments will come out badly bungled, I suspect.
 
453Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:39
"Latch on" = vote with, follow the lead of.

By all accounts, she's not a firebreather, and so won't be drawn personally to Scalia or Thomas.

Roberts will have to assess her personally as well. He is the one who will have to assign opinions to her to write; he'll have to find out what areas of law she is most comfortable with and can handle.
-------------------------------------

David Frum again:
Hugh Hewitt asks whether there isn't some personal animus or motive behind my comments on the Miers nomination. A number of readers have raised the same concern. I suppose it's a natural question. So let me answer for the record that my relations with Miers were always professional and correct when we worked together. I always thought she was a fine and decent person, and I have no personal animus or motive of any kind in this matter.

And though this is probably unnecessary let me add here also: I have been and remain a supporter of this administration and this president. For the past three years, I have been speaking and writing in defense of this administration's goals and this president's character, not just in this country but around the world, most recently in for example The Financial Times. This summer I even proposed to do a documentary about decision-making inside the Bush administration, in hope of refuting once and for all the unfair stereotypes about the way in which it does its work.

So if I don't dislike Miers and want the president to succeed, why am I speaking out? Aside from all the substantial reasons I have cited to date, I am speaking out because there are so many others who want to speak but cannot. I have spent many hours of the past three days listening to conservative jurists on this topic - people who have devoted their lives to fighting battles for constitutionalism, for tort reform, for color-blind justice, people who fought the good fight to get Bork, Scalia, Thomas, and now Roberts onto the high Court.

Their reaction to the nomination has been almost perfectly unanimous: Disappointment at best, dismay and anger at worst. Here's the tough truth, and it will become more and more important as the debate continues: There is scarcely a single knowledgeable legal conservative in Washington who supports this nomination. There are many who are prepared to accept, reluctantly, as the president's choice. Some still hope that maybe it won't turn out as bad as it looks. But ask them: "Well what if the president had consulted you on this choice," and the answer is almost always some version of: "I would have thought he was joking."


There's also stuff at the bottom of the piece trashing her White House work.

 
454Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:54
She may be more moderate than Scalia and Thomas, but that doesn't automatically put her in the Roberts camp. I expect Roberts will take some unusually conceived but otherwise brilliant positions from time to time. In order to follow Roberts' lead, Miers will need to be defend her position as ably as Roberts. I don't see that happening. That Scalia and Thomas often end up in the same voting block is not a conscious result of them wanting to vote together, but rather the two of them having similar interpretations of the law and Constitution. I don't believe that will be the case with Roberts and Miers, but hey, nobody knows enough about Miers, or for that matter Roberts, to know for sure.
 
455Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 09:59
In order to follow Roberts' lead, Miers will need to be defend her position as ably as Roberts.

I can't see that necessity. All she needs to do is concur with his opinion.
 
456Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:12
Bruce Fein gets the honour of being the first prominent legal conservative I've heard of to call outright for the nomination to be defeated:
Cronyism is the signature of the Bush administration. Harriet Miers' nomination to the United States Supreme Court is the high-water mark. The Senate should reject the nomination to honor the original meaning of the Constitution. As Alexander Hamilton amplified in Federalist 76, the Senate confirmation role was intended to "prevent the appointment of unfit characters from State prejudice, from family connection, from personal attachment, or from a view to popularity."
President Bush's sound track during two campaigns was Scalia-Thomas as the philosophical North Star for Supreme Court appointments. Miss Miers, in contrast, is an ink blot. On constitutional matters, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein, there is no there there. She has neither said nor written anything edifying about constitutional law or politics during more than three decades as a lawyer. Her nomination evokes Sen. Roman Hruska's ill-conceived defense of G. Harrold Carswell: "Even if he is mediocre, there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren't they, and a little chance?"
....
Miss Miers' Supreme Court credentials are suboptimal, not to make too fine a point: graduation from Southern Methodist University with a major in mathematics contemporaneously with Laura Bush; personal attorney to Mr. Bush; general counsel to Gov.-elect Bush's transition team in 1994; assistant to the president and staff secretary in 2001; deputy chief of staff in 2003; and White House counsel in 2005. Her acclaim by Sen. Harry Reid, Nevada Democrat, who has sneered at Justice Clarence Thomas' competence, adds cause for skepticism.
The nominee has been conspicuously silent on every controversial constitutional matter in her generation, including Watergate, the legislative veto, Roe v. Wade, presidential war powers, Iran-Contra, prayer in school; the impeachment of President Clinton; the line-item veto; the death penalty; and campaign finance restrictions. If confirmed, Miss Miers can be expected to exceed the obscurity of Garbriel Duvall, who contributed but two words to constitutional law ("I dissent" in Dartmouth College v. Woodward (1819)), during 23 years of Supreme Court service. According to Carol E. Dinkins, a friend of Miss Miers and former deputy attorney general in the Reagan administration, the nominee thought lawyers should avoid public stands on social issues. In other words, as private lawyers, Associate Justice Antonin Scalia and defeated nominee Robert H. Bork skated over the edge of propriety in assailing the Supreme Court's social engineering decisions.
The Senate Judiciary Committee should ask Miss Miers what contribution to constitutional thinking she would make on the Supreme Court; how many court decisions she has read carefully from beginning to end; how many hours' discussion she has devoted to constitutional philosophy or history; how she would expect to enrich and influence court deliberations with her less-than-spare knowledge of constitutional law. A nominee needing years of on-the-job training is unqualified.

 
457Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:17
A good piece. To be fair, though, Reid was never lauding her credentials (so comparing Reid saying "I like Harriet" to his putting down Thomas' credentials is just a bad analogy).

 
458Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:18
However getting through today the story of the article IMO is not "Noonan likes her" but "Noonan dumps on the pick"

That didn't make any sense at all, having just yesterday read the column I linked in 433. So I went to check again today to realize that what I had read and pasted was a column by John Cornyn, not Peggy Noonan.
 
459Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:20
Ah, thanx. I was wondering since yesterday, "Why would Noonan like Miers?"
 
460Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:32
Links to 30+ articles and comments from confirmthem.com

As always, don't miss Coulter! Right on, if you substitute a nicer word for "hatred".

Toral
 
461Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:38
The Senate Judiciary Committee should ask Miss Miers what contribution to constitutional thinking she would make on the Supreme Court;

The Senate Judiciary Committee should begin by asking her if she believes in God's law, ask her to define it(them) and if she believes these laws take preference over laws written by men.
If her answer is affirmative, the nomination should be immediately withdrawn.
 
462Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:46
That would be a softball question for her. She would just explain that judges follow, interpret and apply man's law not God's, as John Roberts supposedly explained to Richard Durbin when Durbin asked him a similar question in a private meeting.
 
463Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:48
and if she believes these laws take preference over laws written by men.

The Declaration of Independence is predicated on the belief that certain higher laws trump the laws of man. But never mid that, you're right, some sort of religious test should be put in place to keep undesirables out of public office.
 
464Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:55
She should refuse to answer any questions about her personal religious beliefs. I think it disgusting that the White House has highlighted her evangelical background as some kind of plus for her nomination.
 
465Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:56
The Declaration of Independence is predicated on the belief that certain higher laws trump the laws of man.

The Declaration of Independence is not the Constitution. And what "higher laws" are there? Who interprets these mysterious "higher laws?"
 
466Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 10:59
464 I agree it is very disturbing. Many, although not all, evangelicals posting on redstate.org and confirmthem.com feel the same way.
 
467Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 11:01
Well done, Madman. Way to spin this into an attack on the innocent bystanders. Ah yes, now the Democrats Bush consulted with are innocent bystanders. Whatever.

She should refuse to answer any questions about her personal religious beliefs. I think it disgusting that the White House has highlighted her evangelical background as some kind of plus for her nomination.

Someone needs to ask her about this during her confirmation hearings. I.e., does she this it is appropriate to bring this up? Does it have any bearing? How does she feel about it?

Given her relationship with the White House, the presumption should be that this has been done with her consent and blessing rather than the reverse. She needs to address this at some point.
 
468Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 11:07
Who interprets these mysterious "higher laws?"

Evidently, SCOTUS. For example, see Griswold v. Conn. or Roe v. Wade and the numerous other "penumbra" cases where unwritten, undreamt of right have sprung Pegusus-like, full grown, from the minds of five like-minded judges.
 
469Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 11:58
Madman, your assertion that Democrats are not skeptical of this nomination is unfounded. The fact that the Dems are split is not surprising or disheartening. Given the situation the Democrats are in, being the minority party across the board and all, they have to ask themselves if they'd rather have a mediocre, moderate candidate or a well-qualified, very conservative candidate. The blame should be placed first and foremost on Bush for the crummy nomination, and to a lesser extent, Miers herself. After that, the job of objecting to unqualifiend candidates is the job of all Senators, not just the opposition party. Both sides have idiots out there campaigning for Miers already, and both sides have members who have taken shots at Miers and Bush. Do you think there are no Democrats irritated with the nomination and/or with the ensuing praise from Reid?
 
470Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 12:44
Do you think there are no Democrats irritated with the nomination and/or with the ensuing praise from Reid?

This is the sort of disgusting garbage this forum has devolved into. Recall that I said, and I quote: "The fact the "opposition" party is split, as well, is just downright disheartening."

For those who are still confused, if I say a party is SPLIT, then what I mean is that some are in favor and some are not.

Given the situation the Democrats are in, being the minority party across the board and all, they have to ask themselves if they'd rather have a mediocre, moderate candidate or a well-qualified, very conservative candidate.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that Miers is a "moderate" by your definition? I presented an argument for why she is likely a Bush-type policy conservative, at the least -- namely she has devoted her life to this administration for many years. Further, we have substantive evidence that she may be one of the most avid pro-lifers to ever sit on the Court. All other views are buried beneath a veil of secrecy. If you have other arguments, please present. But mindlessly asserting that she is moderate over and over is a rather unpersuasive argument.

And, of course, there is her acceptance speech which was a bolder expression of ideology than was perhaps wise. Very Borkian and unexpected. I presume this was done to placate the social conservative's desire for a fight, but if so, the message doesn't seem to have really caught fire.

Of course the initial responsibility lies with Bush. Duh. And it doesn't terribly surprise me that some Republicans have questioned this appointment; afterall, it is highly questionable and the party has never been exactly noted for limiting disagreement. And by the same token, this does demonstrate that the Democratic party isn't as clearly aligned with the pro-choice movement as I had thought, likewise highlighting that there is more diversity there than I originally gave credit for.

It's a shame, however, that the main skepticism seems to be coming from the right rather than the left. Skeptical evaluation of a nomination like this is EXACTLY what an opposition party should be doing. Where are the vocal Dems? Just because a stealth and barely qualified ultra-conservative is less scary to them than a respectable and articulate and visible moderate conservative like Roberts? That makes no sense.
 
471Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 12:46
I believe the thought that she is a moderate comes from her close association with, and nomination by, George W. Bush, a known moderate.
 
472Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:02
Further, we have substantive evidence that she may be one of the most avid pro-lifers to ever sit on the Court.

I haven't seen that evidence myself. All I have seen are a few tidbits. She contributed $150 to a pro-life group over a decade ago. Her good friend Judge Hecht says she is pro-life, while adding he has no idea how she would vote on Roe. Karl Rove and other WH/GOP flacks are giving social conservatives "assurances" of unknown content. (Miers is reported to have told Sen. Leahy yesterday that no one had authorization from her to give any assurances as to how she would vote on aything.) The President said that he could not remember ever talking to her about abortion. Her church is said to take a pro-life position. Her campaign manager for Dallas city council has said that Miers told her that she used to be pro-choice but had changed her mind and become pro-life.

I don't think it's word quibbling to say that I haven't seen anything substantive to suggest that she's an "avid" pro-life person. She seems to be pro-life, but how important that is to her is unknown.

Toral
 
473Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:06
PD 471 -- ha! Well, if so, then I'll yield. If Razor calls GWB a moderate -- especially on social or legal issues -- I'll yield the point.

Personally, I think this is a situation where the lib-mod-cons scale fails miserably. GWB is a "moderate" in my eyes because of fiscal and economic issues -- he sincerely believes in the power of bureaucracy to do good. I do not believe he's a moderate because of legal or social values issues, namely abortion, separation of church and state, gay rights, etc.

Incidentally, this is why I'm so aggravated by the nominee. I can handle GWB for a term or two as President. But I don't want a GWB as a judge. I want smaller government and more freedoms, not bigger gov't and fewer freedoms. Judged strictly from right-to-left, GWB and I might be at exactly the same location ... but for opposite reasons.

If Miers reflects GWB, like I hypothesize, then I see votes against Lawrence, the residents of Kelo, in favor of the Gov't in Wickard, Hamdi and WoT issues, against Raich, and to overturn Roe etc.

Almost 100% wrong (excepting Lawrence, with a neutral on overturning Roe). Those votes cut across traditional left-right lines.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'll be watching the hearings closely.
 
474Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:11
U. Mich Law Library has some articles by Miers online.
 
475Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:14
Toral -- her personal views as an evangelical Christian leave no room for compromise. Her conversion from pro-choice to pro-life was mentioned by Ivins. Ergo, my statement.

I'll grant that we don't know exactly how she would vote on Roe or whether she would vote to overturn it, primarily because we don't know how separate she can or will keep her religion from her judgments. This is another reason why I think she needs to address this in the hearings. But her reference to strict constructionism in her acceptance speech, her work on removing the ABA's endorsement of Roe, her pro-life activities, her statements to friends, and Bush's own belief structures seem to suggest to me she'll be as reliable a vote as you can get through a nomination proceeding. The WH is holding her religious views up as a credential for her role as a judge. That says something. If she comes out and denounces this practice in the hearings, I'll willingly remove it from the list.

There is room to disagree, of course, and some social conservatives are concerned. But I see no reason not to hold this as my prior belief.
 
476Razor
      ID: 9919418
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:19
Madman 270 - This is the sort of disgusting garbage this forum has devolved into. Recall that I said, and I quote: "The fact the "opposition" party is split, as well, is just downright disheartening."

Madman 247 - I'm glad to see Republicans expressing concern; I wish Dems would join them.

Nice. You write unclearly and blast me for it. Try using the adjectives "some," "many" or "most" to make your point next time, and maybe you can save the forum from devolving.

It's a shame, however, that the main skepticism seems to be coming from the right rather than the left. Skeptical evaluation of a nomination like this is EXACTLY what an opposition party should be doing.

You're half right. Skeptical evaluation is what both sides should be doing. Always. If we had a well qualified candidate, the Democrats could do their job of playing the devil's advocate, but everyone has been thrown for a loop by this bizarre pick. I find it highly amusing that you berate the Democrats for not being up in arms over her qualifications when it's the party in power who should've consulted with its base and offered up a decent pick in the first place. The fact that there's dissent coming from the Right is evidence of a great schism on that side moreso than conscientious objectors stepping in for the strangely silent Democrats. Lest you be under any delusions about it, the only reason the Right is questioning her so much is because she appears to be not as conservative of a pick as they wanted to see. The qualification angle is just a sideplot.

Just because a stealth and barely qualified ultra-conservative is less scary to them than a respectable and articulate and visible moderate conservative like Roberts? That makes no sense.

It makes no sense when you put it like that. Of course, if you presume, as many do, that Miers is not ultraconservative, then it makes a lot more sense. I wonder, Madman, if you are purposely obtuse sometimes.
 
477Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:30
Lest you be under any delusions about it, the only reason the Right is questioning her so much is because she appears to be not as conservative of a pick as they wanted to see.

This is simply not true. Toral alluded to this much earlier, but this link says it directly: "Another said much of the anger resulted from the fact that "everyone prepared to go to the mat" to support a strong, controversial nominee and Miers was a letdown."

Winning by stealth is not what evangelicals are all about. Winning by stealth is not actually winning.

I wonder, Madman, if you are purposely obtuse sometimes.

I expressed in that purposefully obtuse way, as you put it, to illustrate that the only way it makes any sense is, as you suggested, to hold an opposite view ... an opposite view which you have yet to support with any argument. PD tried to rescue you, are you willing to buy his argument? I.e., will you argue that GWB is a moderate?
 
478Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:33
Winning by stealth is not what evangelicals are all about.

Actually, I should add this goes for my wing, as well, although not for religious reasons. It was/is important that we move away from this see-no-evil, there-is-no-evil approach to judicial nominations. The danger is that we water down the Court and get poorly written opinions resulting in terrible precedents and interpretations, even if that particular case is decided in a way I might otherwise like. To you, that's a sideplot. To me, that's meat and potato-es.
 
479Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:40
Noonan argues similarly:

"The president would have been politically better served by what Pat Buchanan called a bench-clearing brawl. A fractious and sparring base would have come together arm in arm to fight for something all believe in: the beginning of the end of command-and-control liberalism on the U.S. Supreme Court. Senate Democrats, forced to confront a serious and principled conservative of known stature, would have damaged themselves in the fight. If in the end President Bush lost, he'd lose while advancing a cause that is right and doing serious damage to the other side. Then he could come back to win with the next nominee. And if he won he'd have won, rousing his base and reminding them why they're Republicans."

Funny. The *only* reason you think the right is criticizing this is a reason Noonan fails to mention.

And, at the risk of beating a dead horse, not all nominations are made in such a way as to earn universal skepticism as you would otherwise suggest. The Roberts nomination was a slam-dunk. The Republicans weren't terribly skeptical, the Democrats were. That doesn't speak well of them.

This situation is clearly different.
 
480Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:40
Re Miers likely to be for overruling Roe because of similarity of views to Bush: some conservatives are coming to the view that Bush does not want Roe overruled. Some tea leaves that are being read:

1) Bush has never called for Roe to be overruled;
2) It has seemed that the only Roe litmus test Bush may be applying to SCOTUS is that he will not nominate anyone who has expressly suggested that Roe be overruled. Jones and Garza may have been axed on this basis. This could be a concern about confirmability;
3) Bush's personal private position on overruling Roe may be analogous to his stated position on a constitutional amendment: it's not appropriate in the absence of a social consensus.
4) Bush may be motivated by the same political concern that probably motivates Rove: fear that repeal of Roe would lead to GOP political slaughter at both federal and state levels.

Toral
 
481Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:41
I thought that the President would build upon the Roberts process to put through a much more conservative candidate--frankly, I was fairly certain he was considering bringing back one of the rejected judges as a prelude to a bait and switch.
 
482Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:44
Toral 5) Laura Bush said that Roe should not be overturned.

My wife thinks that this nomination reveals that Laura may be an incredible pupeteer. Who knows.
 
483biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:48
The world turns on the axis of a librarian? Stranger things have happened in history, but I doubt it.
 
484Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 13:53
I've seen the Laura issue mentioned as well. Might it be influencing Bush? Maybe.

481 My guesses were based on faith in Bush that has proved misguided. I thought he would pick someone who, on a crude left-right spectrum, was close to Roberts, probably slightly more conservative. Aiming right for the point where the Democrats can't get enough caucus support to filibuster successfully, or where the Republicans could, if push came to shove, pass the nuclear option if necessary. There were dozens of such nominees who would fit, and choices of any gender, ethnicity, region, and religion.

Toral
 
485Seward Norse
      ID: 288612
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:03
Bush vs. Clinton 2012??
Laura vs. Hillary???
 
486Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:04
As one poster said humourously on confirmthem.com -- at least Bush has energized the base!
The co-author of "Unfit for Command" holds Miers responsible for supposed complicity by her firm in an investment fraud case in which the firm paid a $22 million settlement.

On the conservative side, this is becoming real real ugly.

Toral
 
487hoops boy
      ID: 4792539
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:15
RE: 439 "And lest he be accused of being a "shill" for the president, Dobson noted that he does not agree with every policy coming out of the White House, such as how to deal with illegal immigration."

Am I the only one who vomits every time some conservative hack runs around waving their hands in the air claiming their independence because they disagree with how the president handles immigration?!@!? Thats like hillary saying she wasn't a crony to her husband cause she didn't agree with him getting blow jobs in the oval office... give me a freakin break! If the only thing you can come up with to not like about this president is immigration you need to pull your head out of his arse and take a few breaths!

ok...i feel better now.
 
488biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:19
Slice him up and spit him out. Conservatives are responsible for this pathetic embarrassment of a president, you are the only ones who are capable, and responsible for, cleaning up this disgusting mess you have wrought upon the world. The left can't, and shouldn't, lift a finger. They would do more harm than good.

If his approval ratings are above 20% next poll, I hold conservatives personally responsible.
 
489Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:36
I expressed in that purposefully obtuse way, as you put it, to illustrate that the only way it makes any sense is, as you suggested, to hold an opposite view ... an opposite view which you have yet to support with any argument. PD tried to rescue you, are you willing to buy his argument? I.e., will you argue that GWB is a moderate?

Talk about taking the long way around the barn. The question here isn't whether Bush is a moderate; it's whether Miers is ultraconservative legally. I haven't seen anyone argue that she is, and I've seen many argue that suspect she is not. Of course, neither side can have it pinpointed exactly for a number of reasons, the most important of which are 1) She doesn't have a judicial track record 2) Even if she did have a judicial track record, justices are prone to act differently (and rightfully so) once on the Supreme Court. Her views and actions as a private citizen, private litigator and Bush lackey may give insight into what kind of SCOTUS justice she may be but not necessarily. That's why the Evangelical angle doesn't really bother me, a staunch secularist, at all. But if you wanted to argue about her political views, Miers was once called a "conservative Democrat" before turning to the other side. Her view that Miers is an ultraconservative would certainly please a lot of conservatives. Toral (and many like him) didn't have a problem with her qualifications but many were distraught over the picks. Perhaps you should let them in on the secret that she is ultraconservative or maybe you should entertain the idea that the vast majority of us aren't wrong by assuming that she is a moderate conservative.

The Roberts nomination was a slam-dunk. The Republicans weren't terribly skeptical, the Democrats were. That doesn't speak well of them.

Doesn't speak well of who? The Democrats? Are you joking? There should ALWAYS be skepticism. Or do you think anyone who goes to Harvard and advances into the federal judiciary has earned a free appointment? Qualifications should be the first and most important element, but that really should be a prerequisite (one that Miers might not pass). Once you get past the Ivy League education and the stellar career achievements, we get to the real meat of these arguments. Reasoning, ethics and philosophy are also important. Everything should be scrutinized, by both sides, to ensure that the best possible candidates are given seats on the highest court in the land.

I already said that Reid is a dolt for endorsing Miers, but if the issue truly is her qualifications, both sides should be furious. Neither side is furious at the moment. I suspect we'll see some action when the hearings roll around.
 
490hoops boy
      ID: 4792539
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:39
please biliruben... one could argue that the left is responsible for bush for giving us such exciting candidates as gore and kerry... you couldn't find a single candidate to sway < 5% of the public your way that would have kept bush out? thats just sad.
 
491Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:43
How much more needed to be swayed? Only the existence of the silly Electoral College gave W the W in 2000. Kerry, on the other hand, was a decidely mediocre candidate. Still better than Bush, though...
 
492biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 14:50
So George should have left Lennie to the Lynch mob? Was it right that Candy let Carlson kill his dog instead of doing it himself?
 
493biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 15:11
If there is one thing Bush has shown he knows even less about than the law, it's economics.

If you let him get a pass on shoving his personal lawyer into the Supreme Court, who's he going to appoint to replace Greenspan (which is arguable an even more important and long-reaching position) at the Fed? His bookie?

Do the right thing. Shoot him. Shoot him now.
 
494biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 15:17
Obviously (for Carnivore's benefit) 493 is purely figurative, and said in the spirit of my references to "Of Mice and Men."
 
495Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 15:25
On the plus side, Bush gives us all hope that any of us might be appointed to a high-level important federal position far above our pay grades, at any time.
 
496biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 15:31
Lol. Maybe your right, PD. I better get busy sucking up. I hear he likes suck-ups.

I greatly admire I fine prisident, the esteemed George W Bush; he's a man's man, a take-charge go-getter, and I try to emulate his behavior in all I do in life. The phrase " What Would Dubya Do?" is constantly on my lips. His success through great adversity has been a shining example, a beacon of hope that I can attain 1/10th of what our fine President has scraped and clawed, and managed through long-odds to attain.
 
497soxzeitgeist
      ID: 478242110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 18:13
I think Surgeon General Bili sounds about right after that display.
 
498biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 18:31
Thanks, but I couldn't!

Head of NIH, okay, but I ain't no C. Everett Koop.
 
499Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Oct 06, 2005, 18:56
Alas poor Bili, I knew him well...
 
500Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Fri, Oct 07, 2005, 06:04
Krauthammer:
Withdraw This Nominee

By Charles Krauthammer

Friday, October 7, 2005; Page A23

When in 1962 Edward Moore Kennedy ran for his brother's seat in the Senate, his opponent famously said that if Kennedy's name had been Edward Moore, his candidacy would have been a joke. If Harriet Miers were not a crony of the president of the United States, her nomination to the Supreme Court would be a joke, as it would have occurred to no one else to nominate her.

We've had quite enough dynastic politics over the past decades. (Considering the trouble I have had with Benjamin and William Henry Harrison, I pity the schoolchildren of the future who will have to remember who was who in the Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton presidential alternations from 1989 to 2017.) But nominating a constitutional tabula rasa to sit on what is America's constitutional court is an exercise of regal authority with the arbitrariness of a king giving his favorite general a particularly plush dukedom. The only advance we've made since then is that Supreme Court dukedoms are not hereditary.

It is particularly dismaying that this act should have been perpetrated by the conservative party. For half a century, liberals have corrupted the courts by turning them into an instrument of radical social change on questions -- school prayer, abortion, busing, the death penalty -- that properly belong to the elected branches of government. Conservatives have opposed this arrogation of the legislative role and called for restoration of the purely interpretive role of the court. To nominate someone whose adult life reveals no record of even participation in debates about constitutional interpretation is an insult to the institution and to that vision of the institution.

There are 1,084,504 lawyers in the United States. What distinguishes Harriet Miers from any of them, other than her connection with the president? To have selected her, when conservative jurisprudence has J. Harvie Wilkinson, Michael Luttig, Michael McConnell and at least a dozen others on a bench deeper than that of the New York Yankees, is scandalous.
 
501Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Fri, Oct 07, 2005, 06:20
Miers' favourite SCOTUS justice: Warren

But this exchange leads one to wonder which one:
While generally well received, Miers has had a few awkward moments, including one during her Wednesday session with Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (Vt.), ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee.

In an initial chat with Miers, according to several people with knowledge of the exchange, Leahy asked her to name her favorite Supreme Court justices. Miers responded with "Warren" -- which led Leahy to ask her whether she meant former Chief Justice Earl Warren, a liberal icon, or former Chief Justice Warren Burger, a conservative who voted for Roe v. Wade . Miers said she meant Warren Burger, the sources said.


 
502hoops boy
      ID: 4792539
      Fri, Oct 07, 2005, 09:57
so, one problem i have with all the "no one would have ever nominated her" arguement is that wasn't miers actually on a list produced by the dems of people they would see as acceptable nominees for the supreme court? istm that some people thought she might get nominated.
 
503Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Fri, Oct 07, 2005, 13:48
Frum takes next step and calls for withdrawal or defeat of nomination.

I've edited out some of Frum's personal argumentation with Hugh Hewitt.

Frum sums up my own opinion excellently:
OCT. 7, 2005: WHAT NOW?
Krauthammer and Kristol have both called for the Miers nomination to be withdrawn. Rush Limbaugh, George Will, and Laura Ingraham have expressed the gravest concern. Your ballots are running more than 15 to 1 against confirmation. (I will close the balloting at 5 pm Eastern Time today and post results tonight.)

But all this raises the question: What Now?

There is at this point only one serious defense of the Miers nomination. (And no, I am not referring here to Brit Hume's and Fred Barnes' embarrassing repetition of Ed Gillespie's talking points: "Brawwwwwk-sexism; brawwwwwwk-elitism; brawwwwwwwwwk-Harvard; brawwwwwwwwwk; brawwwwwkk; brawwwwwk.")

The serious defense is offered by Hugh Hewitt: concern for the president's political position. Despite Kristol and Krauthammer's wise advice, President Bush will not voluntarily withdraw this nomination. That would be utterly out of character. So, as Hewitt argues,

"Continuing the assault on Miers means committing to her defeat...." And, according to Hewitt, a defeat of the Miers nomination by Republicans would be a self-destructive act.

These words need to be taken seriously. A Miers defeat, if it could be made to happen, would deal a serious blow to the Bush presidency. Conservatives need to think hard about that.

But Bush defenders like Hewitt need to consider this: A Miers win would also deal serious blows - to the Republican party, to the conservative movement, and, yes, to the Bush presidency.

Consider these hard political facts:

1) Hewitt foresees all kinds of Republican political opportunities in 2006. He's deluding himself. 2006 will be a high-intensity, high-turnout year for Democrats, as was 2004. The only way Republicans avoid disaster is by doing an even better job with turnout and intensity. And how intense are you feeling right now? The right nomination could have helped save Rick Santorum and Mike DeWine. This nomination could well demoralize the Republican voting base enough - in conjunction with immigration, over-spending, and the mishandling of Katrina, plus continuing trouble in Iraq - to cost at least two Senate seats.

2) The damage dealt to the conservative movement will be huge and lasting. As the conservative movement has grown and matured, it has necessarily compromised some of its early fierceness and idealism. Broad coalitions have to be built, elections have to be won, leaders have to be supported despite their inevitable personal imperfections. Through the Bush years, conservatives have shown tremendous discipline. They have accepted minor disappointments for the sake of higher priorities: the war, the courts. But if they accept this, they will be jettisoning every principle in favor of just this one: the leader is always right. That's not just unconservative. It's un-American.

3) At his press conference Tuesday, the president said he has "plenty" of political capital. He's wrong about that. If political capital means the ability to get your supporters to persuade people to do things they would not otherwise want to do - well then the president has just spent it all. It's too late for him to reach out across the aisle; he must depend on his core political supporters - and the harder he pushes this nomination, the more he will alienate them. His only hope to recoup is to reconnect with conservatives - and abandoning this nomination is essential.

Here is the fundamental reason why this is true:

George Bush has again and again called on conservatives to sacrifice for the success of his presidency. Whether it was McCain-Feingold or racial quotas or immigration or "Islam is peace," conservatives were urged not to let petty personal considerations distract them from the big picture.

But when it was the president's turn to make the biggest domestic-policy decision of his presidency, to fill the swing seat on the US Supreme Court, did he sacrifice? Did he point the general good ahead of his own petty personal considerations? He did not. He abandoned his principles, his party, his loyal followers all to indulge his personal favoritism.

He has done himself terrible damage, and he cannot fix it until and unless he breaks free - or is helped to break free - from this bad decision.

....

When President Bush chose Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court, he put his own personal feelings and wishes ahead of his duty to his party and his country. This appointment to the swing seat on the Supreme Court is the most important domestic-policy decision of his presidency. It should have been made with patriotism, principle, and public spirit. It was made instead with pique and self-indulgence.

In the end, George Bush is just another public employee. He has a duty to do his best for the people who elected him, for the country that follows him, and for the constitution he swore to defend and uphold. In this case, he failed- worse, he refused. It would be best if this nomination were quietly and decently withdrawn. If not, it should be resisted.

 
504Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Oct 07, 2005, 14:27
seems to me that the conservatives in this country are finally starting to realize what their smarter political brethren to the left have been saying for years now - GW Bush is unfit for the job.
 
505Seward Norse
      ID: 288612
      Fri, Oct 07, 2005, 15:27
Not many are fit for the job that have a chance of winning. That's the problem.
 
506Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 18:14
Harriet *heart* Hillary?
 
507Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 18:19
Frum's latest blast:
OCT. 10, 2005: WHAT THE INSIDERS ARE SAYING
More talking over the weekend to more conservative lawyers in Washington. It is hard to convey how unanimously they not only reject, but disdain, the choice of Miers.

One commented on this news story that Miers' favorite reading was John Grisham novels: "Look, it's inevitable these senators are going to ask you some obviously stupid questions. You just can't give them obviously stupid answers. How hard is it to say that you are reading Jean Smith's biography of Chief Justice John Marshall?"

Another told me of a briefing session to prepare Miers to enter into her duties as White House Counsel. A panel of lawyers who had served in past Republican White Houses was gathered together. After a couple of hours of questions and answers, all agreed: "We're going to need a really strong deputy."

It's been reported the reason Miers was named White House Counsel in the first place was that she had proven incompetent as Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy. Her boss, Chief of Staff Andy Card, badly wanted to get her out of his office - but couldn't fire her because she was protected by the president and the first lady. So he promoted her instead. Now we learn that it was Card who was the strongest advocate of moving Miers out of the West Wing altogether and onto the high court - raising the question of whether the ultimate motivation for this nomination is to open the way to hiring a new Counsel by kicking a failed Counsel upstairs.

Few of the people I talk to can talk on the public record, although Judge Robert Bork has courageously done so and as time passes others may decide that they have to accept the risks of stepping forward and telling what they know. In the meantime, ask yourself this: Think of all the conservative jurists you know and respect. Have any of them had anything positive to say about this nomination?
Toral
 
508Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 18:23
humour

humour?
 
509Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 08:39
Today we highlight some of the things that the woman described as a "pit bull in size 6 shoes" wrote to then Governor George Bush:
"You are the best governor ever - deserving of great respect,"
"Texas has a very popular governor and first lady!I was struck by the tremendous impact you have on the children whose lives you touch."
"[Thanks]for taking the time to visit in the office and on the plane back - cool!"
"Hopefully Jenna and Barbara recognize that their parents are 'cool' - as do the rest of us."
"All I hear is how great you and Laura are doing...Texas is blessed."
These comments, besides what they say about Ms. Miers, also very much call in question the President's judgment in appointing her White House Counsel. It's very dangerous having a fawning sycophant in that position.

Toral

 
510Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 09:06
What is she, 12 years old? "Best governer ever!" Sounds a yearbook.

These comments, besides what they say about Ms. Miers, also very much call in question the President's judgment in appointing her White House Counsel. It's very dangerous having a fawning sycophant in that position.

You are correct. This could also be said about a number of a Bush appointees, and as has been pointed out many times, the one well regarded, supremely qualified member of the administration who occasionally offered a voice of dissent was completely sidelined towards the end of his tenure.
 
511Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 09:45
Serious question: Why did Harriet Miers accept the nomination?

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere. I was composing letters to my Senators about getting ready to express sympathy for her ... when I realized she brought this on herself by accepting a nomination for which she KNEW she didn't have any distinguising credentials. She KNEW this was political cronyism, and went along with it anyway.

I realize that we are all human, but we rely on SCOTUS justices to exercise their integrity, recuse themselves when they aren't qualified, etc.

Given the facts on the table today, she should not have accepted this nomination, but did anyway. Anyone else troubled by this, or is the line between qualified and unqualified sufficiently blurry that this lapse in judgment should be overlooked?
 
512Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 09:46
Toral 501 -- I wouldn't hold that against her too much. There is no context for that quote.

Separately, somewhere I did read that she praised Burger for his administrative efficiency.
 
513Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 10:06
512I did read that she praised Burger for his administrative efficiency.

Yes that is the official line from the WH and makes sense.

511 I can't blame her for thinking herself qualified to be on the court. She is an accomplished person.

But I do blame her for not properly doing her job as adviser to the President. She should have told him that the appointment would be regarded as cronyism and that there were many more qualified candidates out there, and declined the offer. She also should have had enough knowledge of the conservative movement to predict the firestorm and save her boss from it.

Toral
 
514Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 10:19
Toral 513 -- What may be more troubling is that she didn't have a pat answer to that question that avoided the debate ... just after going through the Roberts nomination. Saying she admired many justices for many different things, etc., sounds like something I would say when trying to buy time.

As to your response to 511, yes, that's a much better way to phrase it. I was a bit worried that my logic was too circular ... she wasn't qualified, therefore she shouldn't have accepted the nomination therefore she isn't qualified ... But the appearance of cronyism along with the fact that she's ridden his coattails for a decade now just slaps you in the face.
 
515Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 10:23
Draft letter to Blanche Lincoln ... background: she has tacked to the left since her election on nominations, but is still open to voting for Republicans. She voted for Roberts and against Brown, for example.

I am writing to express my concern over Harriet Miers’ nomination. Any nominee whose distinguishing qualification is her association with the President is a nominee who should be opposed. Alexander Hamilton in Federalist 76 expressed the hope that the threat of Senate rejection would deter a President from making exactly such a nomination. That hope is now gone, but the Senate’s threat remains, through people like you.

I am a Republican who voted for you in 2004. I respected your first-term voting record and also feared your opponent’s philosophy, which inappropriately cojoined religion and politics while masking a lack of intellectual heft. Harriet Miers’ nomination seems largely predicated upon her evangelical religious beliefs and her association with the President; as such, I fear that her nomination is likewise the result of a similarly destructive conjunction.

Nominations should not be based upon a specific desire for a specific outcome in a specific case. Nominations should not be based strictly upon personal affinity and shared religious philosophies. Nominations should be based upon a proven record of ability, a record of successful application of wisdom and insight. Given the complexity of the Court’s work, this is the only standard that is acceptable. I am deeply afraid that this nomination fails these criteria.

Political forces may cause Senators to accept this nominee as the “best” of a set of bad options. This would be most unfortunate.

For example, there may be the illusory belief that Miers is the “best” Democrats can hope for, ideologically. The lack of a record, however, is not an asset and no more proves her ideologically friendliness than it proves her competency.

My wife is a Democrat and a real fan of yours. Although my wife and I do sometimes agree to disagree, we also have found common political ground in our affinity for freedom and our skepticism of governmental power. I fear that Miers may not share those affinities to the degree that we do. To the extent that Bush’s character assessment of Miers is correct, it is reasonable to presume that Miers will be deferential to executive power and pro-actively socially conservative. There are many potential nominees that Democrats might prefer on either of those dimensions.

Regardless, ideology should not drive this debate. The Constitutional duty of the Senate to confirm only qualified nominees trumps ideological guesswork.

Miers should not have been nominated. I therefore humbly and respectfully request that you investigate this nomination fully and approach it with skepticism. If additional information comes to light during such reflection and investigation, and if you can then present an argued and persuasive case for her confirmation, I will accept that decision. Otherwise, this nomination should be opposed.
 
516Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 10:27
i would like to commend the Republicans in this country, and offer praise to conservatives in other countries, for your brilliance in supporting George W. Bush as he ran for his second term as U.S. President.

this is what you asked for, and this is what you got.

while i'm not convinced that this isn't a sinister Karl Rove/Kevin Sullivan plot twist/mind game/swerve that will reveal Miers to have ultra-conservative views AFTER she is confirmed, and that this was all a ruse by the Right to get the Left to support her, i'm still pleased as punch to see the blind open their eyes that Bush isn't all you praised him up to be when you got on your knees and genuflected a short time ago.
 
517Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 10:33
this is what you asked for, and this is what you got

And what should really, really scare you is that I suspect most of us would still much prefer this fight to having to deal with the next Ginsberg.
 
518Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 10:38
National Review editor Rich Lowry:
Miers Mess
Hypocrisy, double standards, and contradictions.

The nomination of Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court is foundering, but President Bush is confident that she will be confirmed. Bush thus displays a touching faith in the power of hypocrisy, double standards, and contradictions to see his nominee through. The case for Miers is an unholy mess, an opportunistic collection of whatever rhetorical flotsam happens to be at hand.

The White House and its allies have long argued that it is wrong to bring a judicial nominee's faith into the discussion about his merits, and any attempt to do so amounts to religious bigotry. When it was suggested that John Roberts's Catholic faith might be an area for inquiry in his confirmation, White House allies recoiled in horror.

Now the White House tells conservatives that Miers will vote the right way because she's a born-again Christian. This is the chief reason that some prominent Christian conservatives are supporting her, in a blatant bit of right-wing identity politics. They apparently believe her religious faith will determine what she thinks about the equal-protection clause, the separation of powers, and other nettlesome constitutional issues. As sociology, there is something to this — an evangelical is more likely to be conservative than a Unitarian — but to place so much weight on Miers's demographic profile, rather than her own merits and judicial philosophy, is noxious and un-American.

But don't worry: As soon as Democrats try to probe Miers's evangelicalism, these Republicans will be back to saying her faith should be off-limits.

When Roberts's past work in Ronald Reagan's White House counsel's office was released, revealing an eager participant in the Reagan Revolution, the White House downplayed it. It didn't want its nominee to appear too conservative. So, Roberts was only taking orders. Nothing could be discerned about his own philosophy from his work in the counsel's office.

Now that the Miers nomination has encountered conservative opposition, the White House points to her work in Bush's counsel's office nominating strict constructionist judges as evidence of her own conservatism. She wasn't just taking orders, but offering a window into her political soul. When Democrats demand to see the documents from Miers's work there, the White House will surely reverse field in yet another acrobatic flip-flop-flip, refusing the requests partly because the documents supposedly don't reveal anything about her after all.

During his nomination process, here were signs that Roberts was pro-life. But the White House didn't want any of that discussed — his personal views were deemed irrelevant. Now White House aides whisper to conservatives that Miers is personally pro-life, as if it is a clinching argument in her favor.

The White House was happy to trumpet the fact that Roberts graduated summa cum laude from Harvard undergrad and law school. Now it insinuates that anyone looking for similar credentials in its latest Supreme Court pick is guilty of "elitism." Indeed, White House point-man Dan Coats suggests her role will be to keep the Court from becoming too intellectual (what with that egghead Roberts now leading it).

And on it goes. Miers is a trailblazer, but she will loyally follow Roberts's lead. She is an independent woman, but will vote however Bush wants her to vote. She has an excellent judicial temperament, but conservatives better not criticize her too harshly or she will turn against them. The attacks on Miers are patronizing, but one of the reasons she will be such a good justice — as a pro-Miers blogger argued — is that she will win over her colleagues by uncomplainingly "fetching beverages" for them.

It is a sign of how far lost the White House is that one of its key operatives, Ed Gillespie, is reading off the same talking points as liberal Democratic Sen. Barbara Mikulski. Both discern sexism in the criticisms of Miers. If it's sexist to question Miers, what is it to be even more unimpressed with the men trying to boost her nomination?


 
519Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 10:42
>
 
520Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 11:03
Lowry is good.

National Review, Republican administration lackeys.
 
521Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 11:29
permalink for Toral 509 ... Does anyone have access to PDF's of the "best governor ever!" comment? I'd rather not explode into another fit of rage if I can help it.
 
522Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 11:40
My pick would have been:

JUDGE CONSUELO CALLAHAN
JUDGE CONSUELO CALLAHAN
U.S. Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, appointed by
G.W. Bush, 55 years old
Sort of an out-of-nowhere pick, this would be!
Though the New York Times mentioned her on
9/20. A judge since 1992, serving on
California Superior and Appeals courts until
her elevation to the federal bench in 2003.


New World Man presents: My favorite candidate for the Supreme Court
brought to you by Quizilla
 
523Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 14:33
"You are the best governor ever - deserving of great respect,"

If the report is true, Bush's response to her is one my favorite Bushisms ever.

Bush wrote back to wish Miers a happy 52nd birthday, telling her that he appreciated her friendship and to "never hold back your sage advice." He ended with a postscript: "No more public scatology."
 
524Sludge
      ID: 27751510
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 15:04
How do we know he really didn't mean to tell her to "can the bullshit"?
 
525Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 19:15
The Emperor Has No Clothes

Welcome dear readers to the new conservatism! When inconvenient theory stands in the way, brush it aside!

"When Bush said "like Scalia or Thomas" many people heard many things. I think it is very safe to say that the vast majority of American voters did not hear "justices committed to a particular theory...of textualism or originalism." I think they heard "justices who aren't making stuff up," or "justices who aren't full of themselves," or "justices who will not impose same sex marriage or overturn every juvenille death penalty in the land or import EEC law on a whim."

I think they heard "results," and if I am right, Bush has not only not broken his promise, he may be well on his way to fulfilling it twice and hopefully more times over."


Disgusting. In one fell swoop we have descended to the level of the pragmatists. The "evolving standards" used by the Left to interpret the Constitution are now weapons justifiably used by the Right to enforce their own will and orthodoxy. Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the new conservatism, justified by Breyer, but guided by higher morality. The Left has periodically (and sometimes accurately) accused Scalia of abandoning his standards and becoming susceptible to the allure of "results". Now those exceptions have found their own justification on their way to possibly becoming the "norm".
 
526Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 19:44
Excellent discussion of Miers' qualifications (or lack thereof)
 
527biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 19:54
Kleiman: Miers confirmation a non-zero sum game.

Which brings me to the Miers nomination. There's a line of thinking developing out there that if Miers is such a terrible choice from the perspective of conservatives, she must be not too bad a choice from the perspective of liberals, and that therefore Senate Democrats ought to vote for her confirmation. That reasoning makes an implicit zero-sum assumption that is unjustified.

Miers has two characteristics -- lack of intellectual distinction and subservience to the interests of the Bush clan -- that are undesirable from both conservative and liberal perspectives. It's easy to imagine that the person nominated to replace her should she fail of confirmation would be more intelligent and more independent. So no matter how much conservatives oppose this nomination, liberals should oppose it strongly.

The election game, however, is zero-sum as between the parties; as Mickey Kaus recently pointed out, it's logically impossible for both Democrats and Republicans to benefit politically from, e.g., keeping Tom DeLay in office. Having Miers defeated or withdrawn can't be good for both sides (though voting for or against her could be good for individual senators from both sides). But the question "Which party benefits when the President's nominee fails?" seems to me to answer itself: the opposition benefits.

So in the non-zero-sum game of running the country, it seems to me that both Republicans and Democrats should oppose Miers, though admittedly given GWBs talent for finding and rewarding loyal mediocrity he could indeed come up with an even less distinguished replacement. (Rick Santorum? That would give the Republicans a chance to nominate someone electable in his stead, and Senatorial courtesy would make his confirmation a virtual laydown.) And in the zero-sum game of politics, defeating Miers would be a win for the Democats and a loss for the Republicans.


I agree with Drum's advice to the Dems: Speak softy and carry a big vote against.
 
528Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 19:58
Dems aren't going to vote against Meirs because of the very reason pointed out: Why give Bush a chance to put up a Santorum on the Court?

At least with Miers the Dems have a chance at a Republican justice who appears to lack the intellectual heft to withstand their attempts at turning her. Not that one has to be a brainiac to avoid Democratic brainwashing, but without a strong conservative judicial philosophy she's very apt to be open to a liberal one, whether she knows it or not.
 
529biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 20:06
All I've heard so far is she worships two things, Jesus Christ and George W. Bush. That doesn't sound like a liberal in the making to me.
 
530Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 20:17
She's got it half right. Jesus was far more liberal than any Republican.
 
531Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 20:18
Why give Bush a chance to put up a Santorum on the Court?

1) Because it is your Constitutional duty as a Senator to prevent mediocrities and cronies from taking to the Court.
2) If you insist on evaluating this nominee on consequentialist grounds, I think your gamble that the identity politics of evangelical christianity will break when exposed to peer pressure on the court is a particularly poor one.
3) This is more than about a single crappy decision. This is about the Supreme Court.
4) Bush has revealed himself to be willing to sacrifice the Court for real politik gains (I buy Hugh's argument in 525). Democratic acceptance of this nominee is no better than making the nomination in the first place. If the Democrats want to become attractive alternatives, the first step would be to make a rather uncontroversial stand against cronyism. If they can't make that stand because they cling to the slim hope that a single evangelical will abandon or temper her religious beliefs about abortion, what good are they?
 
532Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 20:21
I forgot ...
5) How do you know that Miers ISN'T a Santorum?
 
533Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 21:25
Well, if you'll allow that she might be, then your entire 531 appears to be moot.
 
534Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 21:37
PD -- I'm not sure I understand. The first and foremost problem is that she is not sufficiently qualified. She might end up being the ultimate SCOTUS justice. But her nomination should not have happened. Period. That's trump. That was argument #1 in 531.

Whether ideologically and practically she is actually a Santorum, Wendell Holmes, Rehnquist, or Jefferson Davis should only be secondary consideration. In 532, I simply suggest that she MIGHT actually be what Dobson and Bush and others believe she will be.
 
535Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 21:42
Madman, you seem to believe that Santorum is qualified. He's as unqualified as Miers.

My point in 528 is that Senate Republicans would confirm a Santorum justice, but he would not only be as unqualified as Miers but dangerously out-of-touch. Keeping Bush from appointing a right-wing nutjob who is unqualified by voting for a moderate who is unqualified is not a difficult choice for Dems to make. And it doesn't mean Dems are trying to destroy SCOTUS--indeed, I'd say that Dems would have the future of the Court at the front of their minds if given such a choice and opted for Miers over a Santorum.
 
536Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 11, 2005, 22:58
The cavalry to the rescue? NYT:
G.O.P. Aides Add Voices to Resistance Over Nominee
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: October 12, 2005
As the White House seeks to rally senators behind the Supreme Court nomination of Harriet E. Miers, lawyers for the Republican senators on the Judiciary Committee are expressing dissatisfaction with the choice and pushing back against her, aides to 6 of the 10 Republican committee members said yesterday.

"Everybody is hoping that something will happen on Miers, either that the president would withdraw her or she would realize she is not up to it and pull out while she has some dignity intact," a lawyer to a Republican committee member said.

All the Republican staff members insisted on anonymity for fear of retaliation from their supervisors and from the Senate leaders.

At two stormy meetings on Friday - the first a planning meeting of the chief counsels to Republican committee members and the second a Republican staff meeting with Ed Gillespie, the former Republican Party chairman who is helping to lobby for the nomination - committee lawyers were unanimous in their dismay over Ms. Miers's qualifications and conservative credentials, several attendees said.

Many lawyers were critical or hostile, these people said, although Michael E. O'Neill, chief counsel to the committee chairman, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, tried to remain relatively neutral.

"You could say there is pretty much uniform disappointment with the nomination at the staff level," another Republican on the committee staff said. "It is clear there is quite a bit of skepticism, and even some flashes of hostility."

Another Republican aide close to the committee said, "I don't know a staffer who approves of this nomination, anywhere. Most of it is outright hostility throughout the Judiciary Committee staff."
Toral


 
537Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 00:42
Madman, you seem to believe that Santorum is qualified. Huh? Where did I say that?

My point in 528 is that Senate Republicans would confirm a Santorum justice, but he would not only be as unqualified as Miers but dangerously out-of-touch.

Impossible. Chafee, Snow, Collins, Gregg, and two of Voinovich, McCain, Specter, etc., wouldn't do it. Not to mention the fact that Bush would have just suffered a severe defeat and been politically crippled.
 
538Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 00:43
Post 537 also assumes you'd get 51 Republican Senators to vote for cloture in such an eventuality. An emboldened gang of 14 wouldn't go for that.
 
539Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 01:25
Well, first of all you'd need 50 Republicans for cloture, and 66 to confirm (Santorum would abstain, of course, so only 99 total Senators to worry about).

Bush would be wounded, but by his own party who would be looking for a Santorum-like political philosophy. In this scenerio, having rejected Miers by loudly proclaiming that they want someone much more conservative (under the guise of "qualifications") Bush would serve up someone more palatable to them.

While you might believe that the Senate would never go for someone as unqualified as Miers or Santorum, I'll tell you flat out that a Santorum would be confirmed (while accomplishing a circle-the-wagons party building that the Republicans crave) along a strict party-line vote.
 
540Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 08:40
PD 539 -- In 537, I demonstrated why getting 50 Republicans on a single ship for a nominee like Santorum just won't happen.

Regardless, if you truly want to believe that Miers is a stealth moderate nominee that reflects the fact that secretly GWB is also a moderate social conservative, then you deserve this pick.

I'll enjoy her ideologically driven votes a lot more than you will, I suspect.
 
541Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 09:00
My reading of Ms. Miers is as it happens quite different from Madman's. I do not discern a social conservative bone in her body.

Insofar as her evangelicalism is considered relevant, it is noteworthy that she has not joined an evangelical congregation in Washington. She goes to Episcopalian churches including -- Surprise! -- the one that President Bush frequents, close to the White House, which is a liberal Episcopalian church. (Hence this from its website:
The story of the world consistently impinges on the people of God. It asks us to conform to values that Jesus attempted to counter and deconstruct every day of his earthly life - values based on the false promises of materialism, status, and racism.)
A "religious right"-type evangelical wouldn't be caught dead there. I think it quite likely that she attends the evangelical congregation she does in Dallas because her boyfriend, Judge Hecht, who inspired her renewal of faith or whatever it was, goes there.

Toral
 
542Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 09:21
Following on the excellent comment in 527, here are a few political thoughts for scenarios.

1) Miers gets accepted as a "moderate", gets accepted as "qualified".

a) She gets shot down in the Senate by Dems and a coalition of conservatives prominently including Brownback but NOT including the 7 in the Gang of 14.

=> Story: Republican extremists shot down Bush's moderate nominee. Damage: Republicans lose in 2006, and probably lose in 2008 because their tent has become too broad to sustain. Any mollification of religious conservatives is now direct damage to elements like myself.

b) She wins confirmation. Bush is damaged, but can survive. I still think Republicans lose in 2006/08 b/c their strength has been sapped. We already see the failure of the Delay/Rove machine to get smart Republicans to run for office. This would be the ultimate shot across the bow of George Will Republicans.

2) Miers gets pegged as insufficiently qualified, but moderate.

=> Story: Bush and Republican cronyism has run to excess. Damage: Republicans crash in 2006 as people see the value of an opposition party standing on principle. 2008, however, depends a lot on who the Presidential nominee is.

a) if she gets shot down, a more qualified replacement is selected, as per Kleiman's strategy.

b) If she gets confirmed, the stigma of a corrupt ruling party gets cemented even further.

3) Miers gets pegged as too "conservative" but qualified.

=> Story: Bush's litmus test of religious faith is taken to excess. Damage: this would be a full attack on the evangelical wing of the party. 2006 would already be a disaster, and the party would be weakened in the South in 2008 and beyond.

a) If she loses, the replacement candidate would be critical and almost impossible to find: someone with close-enough-to-identity-politic religious credentials but also with unquestioned intellectual credentials.

b) If she wins, the Brownback base still won't be satisfied until they see her votes in certain ways.

What a disaster. If I'm right, I can see why Dems are remaining relatively silent hoping for scenario 1a. 2a also works strongly to their advantage. Dems like PD don't apparently mind outcomes 1b or 2b, either.

Interestingly, if I'm not being too biased, politically the best strategy for the Republicans matches up with where I think they need to go: declare her unqualified and work with the Gang of 14 to get a qualified nominee through.

My bias comes into play here, however, because it assumes Brownback et al will play along, and this strategy runs the risk of splintering their support depending on the next candidate. Such an outcome is not "subgame perfect" and suggests my scenario 2a should be revised, perhaps along the lines of what PD fears -- a second nominee that has solid abortion credentials. I need to work this out a bit more. Comments welcome.
 
543Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 09:40
Toral 541 -- interesting, but I am far from convinced. Some review: A Post article, belief.net ...

I have been to congregations like this and sat in the pews. To be blunt, I fail to see how you can voluntarily sit through that for 20+ years and NOT be socially conservative. Further, it sounds like the break-off movement that Miers may have joined is even more intensely oriented toward outreach. How all this will directly affect her rulings is, of course, uncertain. But we know what the people closest to her think, or else she wouldn't be nominated.

This really isn't about a concern for "outcomes" from my point of view. It's about whether or not she should ever have been nominated.
 
544Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 10:08
It's about whether or not she should ever have been nominated.

Is that still an issue? Is there anyone who would say "Yes" except George, Laura and Harriet?
 
545Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 22:02
Dear Mr. Bush,

I would like you to consider my sister for your next nomination to the Supreme Court. You can trust me when I tell you that she is a wonderful woman, universally liked, intelligent, capable and judicious. She was the first girl born to my mother and father. Last year, my sister gave birth to my nephew, demonstrating her commitment to life.

She would bring valuable real world experience to the Court. She goes to church regularly and is a woman of great faith -- she has to be or else she wouldn't have voted for you. My sister recently bought a house. This experience could have served the court well in Kelo. She graduated with honors from an undistinguished liberal arts school in the Midwest; she is not an elitist. Her majors were in Spanish and International Business; she clearly does not hail from the "judicial monastery".

She has spent a lifetime arguing with her older brother in cases ranging from property rights (It's MY turn to watch TV!) to contract law (but you promised!). Her rhetoric and reasoning has been honed.

She is an eminently qualified nominee, and those who would disagree are simply being sexist.

If you have any further questions, I am sure that she will be more than happy to answer them after she is confirmed.

Sincerely,

A Dead Parrot

DPS
......

Toral -- perhaps everyone does agree that she shouldn't have been nominated, but there is still considerable disagreement about whether that implies she should be disqualified from further consideration.
 
546Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 22:26
Leahy to Conservatives: lay off Miers.

"...no faction should be permitted to hound a nominee to withdraw before the hearing process has even begun".
 
547Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 22:35
A powerful essay by Mr. Miranda. It concludes:

In his recent hearings, Roberts said that to be called a results-oriented judge is the worst insult you could give a jurist. And yet, this is the only reason conservatives are being given for trusting the President’s selection of Miers for the Supreme Court. That she will rule the way we want. Fighting his father’s demons, the President tells us that what matters is that he knows Miers and that she will not change, an allusion to Justice David Souter. But Souter’s problem is not that he changed, or that the President who nominated him did not know his heart. It is that he too was unqualified and untested to withstand populist winds.

I want a judge who will rule as we want, but not at the cost of the very thing that separates us from banana republics, from the principles that makes this country blessed and great. In this country, the Supreme Court’s legitimacy does not rest on black robes and a high bench. It rests on the people’s expectation that the best and most temperate minds will reach the right decisions the right way. It rests on knowing that those who serve on the high court are qualified for their particular task. This nomination will not add to that legitimacy.
 
548Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 12, 2005, 22:55
I think Republicans are reluctantly coming to the belief that SCOTUS is as much a political entity as they had been hoping it was.

The split personality that is modern Republican judicial philosophy (activism openly mocked except on issues for which they want activism) is coming to the fore.

Leahy's point is interesting, but Republicans are hoping that it never comes to a hearing-that'll mean they have to vote against their President and they don't want to do that. As far as they are concerned the President losing political points is a wash since he'll lose points if he withdraws or his nominee is voted down.
 
549Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 08:43
John Fund describes the "vetting process", if you can call it that
 
550Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 10:17
PDFs of the letters from Miers to Bush. Two unexpected conclusions:

a) Her adoring comments about Bush are significantly tempered when put in context. They were mostly scribbles on birthday cards and comments on thank you letters. I wouldn't write it, but she may be a "booster" type. In the bigger scheme of things, these sentiments in this context are, I think, mostly irrelevant.

b) Read her analysis of House Bill 2987. It was a two page letter, single spaced. Her argument is filled with inflammatory rhetoric and thin on substance. This was a professional letter that she wrote in her capacity as President of the State Bar. HR 2987 would "suddenly and and unnecessarily" place the public in "harms" [sic] way. Texas would be "grossly" out of step with the nation; the public would be without protection. One gets the sense that the worst of all would be that she "will be required to explain to colleagues around the country how it is possible for such a ridiculous result to occur in [her] State". Poor Texas would be required to "hang its head in shame". Is this a professional analysis or an expression of self-pity?

And the writing ...

"Traditionally, rules relating to the practice of law have undergone careful and thorough study prior to passage. Comparisons with other jurisdictions and the effect of any proposed rule has [sic] been historically painstakingly [sic] performed to ensure that our disciplinary rules adequately protect the public. A hastily passed law, not subject to rigorous study and debate, is no way to handle such an important topic. That this legislation would have been passed [sic] without even the possibility for scrutiny by the legal community at large is unthinkable. [ed note: are you not part of the legal community and have you not scrutinized it?]"

Argument by adjective and adverb. Verb tense mish mash. Appropriate for web boards. Not appropriate for reasoned debate.

UGH. UGH. UGH.
 
551Pancho Villa
      ID: 197552915
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 11:10
"People ask me why I picked Harriet Miers. They want to know Harriet Miers' background. They want to know as much as they possibly can before they form opinions. And part of Harriet Miers' life is her religion. Part of it has to do with the fact that she was a pioneer woman and a trailblazer in the law in Texas." - President Bush 10/12/05

Obviously she isn't a pioneer or trailblazer in the law in Texas.
That leaves her qualifications as being religious and doting on Bush.
How embarrassing.
 
552Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 11:12
Here is the bill ... Bush vetoed it . I suspect Harriet is right on the merits, but her arguments are so inarticulate.
 
553Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 11:14
PV 551 -- embarrassing and dangerous. My 550/552 scare me, to be blunt.
 
554Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 12:04
She writes like he speaks. Wonder who has the brain today.
 
555Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 12:48
These tax shelter charges made my head spin ... Coupled with the issues surrounding the Texas Lottery Commission and the fact that this nominee wasn't vetted (at least not substantially), this could get ugly.
 
556biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 15:00
Pat Robertson calls down the wrath of God on all who oppose the ritious woman.

And you say, ‘now they’re going to turn against a Christian who is a conservative picked by a conservative President and they’re going to vote against her for confirmation?’ Not on your sweet life, if they want to stay in office.”


Man, this could be sweet. Pat Robertson calling down lightning bolts to smite the transgressing Senators!
 
557Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 15:19
UMich archives ...

Link 1 "Lawyers have superior education, training, and communication skills." -- Harriet Miers, 1993

Quotes from David Brooks' column from Times Deselect

"Of all the words written about Harriet Miers, none are more disturbing than the ones she wrote herself. In the early 90's, while she was president of the Texas bar association, Miers wrote a column called "President's Opinion" for The Texas Bar Journal. It is the largest body of public writing we have from her, and sad to say, the quality of thought and writing doesn't even rise to the level of pedestrian.

...

"More and more, the intractable problems in our society have one answer: broad-based intolerance of unacceptable conditions and a commitment by many to fix problems."

Or this: "We must end collective acceptance of inappropriate conduct and increase education in professionalism."

Or this: "When consensus of diverse leadership can be achieved on issues of importance, the greatest impact can be achieved."

Or passages like this: "An organization must also implement programs to fulfill strategies established through its goals and mission. Methods for evaluation of these strategies are a necessity. With the framework of mission, goals, strategies, programs, and methods for evaluation in place, a meaningful budgeting process can begin."

Or, finally, this: "We have to understand and appreciate that achieving justice for all is in jeopardy before a call to arms to assist in obtaining support for the justice system will be effective. Achieving the necessary understanding and appreciation of why the challenge is so important, we can then turn to the task of providing the much needed support."

I don't know if by mere quotation I can fully convey the relentless march of vapid abstractions that mark Miers's prose. Nearly every idea is vague and depersonalized. Nearly every debatable point is elided. It's not that Miers didn't attempt to tackle interesting subjects. She wrote about unequal access to the justice system, about the underrepresentation of minorities in the law and about whether pro bono work should be mandatory. But she presents no arguments or ideas, except the repetition of the bromide that bad things can be eliminated if people of good will come together to eliminate bad things.

Or as she puts it, "There is always a necessity to tend to a myriad of responsibilities on a number of cases as well as matters not directly related to the practice of law." And yet, "Disciplining ourselves to provide the opportunity for thought and analysis has to rise again to a high priority."

Throw aside ideology. Surely the threshold skill required of a Supreme Court justice is the ability to write clearly and argue incisively. Miers's columns provide no evidence of that.

...

Her loyalty has been to the person of the president, and her mental style seems to be Republicanism on stilts.

So conservatives are caught between loyalty to their ideas and loyalty to the president they admire. Most of them have come out against Miers - quietly or loudly. Establishment Republicans are displaying their natural loyalty to leadership. And Miers is caught in the vise between these two forces, a smart and good woman who has been put in a position where she cannot succeed."

I read a few of her columns from the first link. Excruciating. I cannot agree more with Brooks.

(and I realize I was pushing the boundary of copyright law, but he was throwing zinger after zinger in)
 
558Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 15:20
Luckily, if she gets on the Court, her clerks will write nearly everything for her.
 
559Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 16:30
Good Lord. The ABA assesses legal writing when it gives a rating. This isn't really serious writing but...I had been assuming she would get a "Qualified" rating, but I wonder if she could actually get a "Not Qualified".

Toral
 
560Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 16:34
Toral 559 -- how much do internal politics play in ABA ratings? I assume she's developed some institutional friends over there given her history. Does that matter?
 
561Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 16:44
short Yahoo article on the ABA re Miers
 
562Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 17:22
I was laughing for ages! Very worthy of a "tip jar" contribution. Unreal; just wish I could download onto my own computer to play over and over again.

PD -- very interesting, thanks. So, basically, given her connections if she gets an "unqualified" that means something pretty ugly. Otherwise, who knows?
 
563Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 18:44
I am beginning to moderate my belief about Mier's philosophies. I am beginning to think that she's simply a marginally intelligent woman a bit lost at sea. This is why she finds Valley View attractive, and also explains her lack of "big picture" thinking ability. She gets lost in the details, which explains why she could be a successful staff secretary.

Taranto digs into her city council past.
 
564Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 19:35
Re 557

I'm not really defending her here, but have you ever read an ABA Journal or other bar association magazine? They are tedious and poorly written. I throw mine in the recycle straight from the box. So, apropos of this forum, I think you must compare her "President's Reports" to that of the league average.

The mere fact that these reports represent the majority of her writings is amuzing.
 
565Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 19:39
Funny you'd bring that up SZ. When I saw post 557 I grabbed my October issue of the KBA Bench & Bar mag. Maybe were just blessed here in the Bluegrass, but the Prez of the KBA is a far superior writer than the Miers in that post.
 
566Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 19:43
MBJ -- do any of the articles in your edition avoid use of the word "great" or its variants (i.e., greatly, greater, etc.)? I've read 5 of her articles, if you include the letter to Bush. So far, every single one of them resorts to that adjective. I know I'm going off into never-never-land here, but it's a bit bizarre.

She tends to push everything to extremes in direct contrast to Roberts who I suspect would sound very measured even if he was terribly pissed off.
 
567Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 19:51
Are there any examples of her legal writing available? I would be greatly interested in contradting them with her PR releases and political advocacy letters Maybe she's a lousy writer in general but a great legal communicator? It'd be great to know. The greater emphasis, obviously, should be placed on her legal writing skills, if there is any difference.

BTW - "great" is a legal term of art, MM; you'd have to go to law school to fully understand its full import.
 
568Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 19:51
Ahh, here's one. No use of the word "Great". link ...

She served on the ABA Commission on multijurisdictional practice issues ... which she introduced here ... "To illustrate why the ABA and its current President Martha Barnett have brought great focus to multijurisdictional practice issues by the creation and funding of a broad--based Commission, we want to describe a case (with which most likely you have some familiarity) that added fuel to the national debate about the difficulties associated with the interstate practice of law."
 
569Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 19:56
It's like reading Faulkner, except more dense.
 
570Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 13, 2005, 19:56
MBJ 567 -- Great.

As to her legal writings, check out the U of Mich site above. They seem to be keeping on top of things. They have info. on her cases, which may be as much as we are going to get.
 
571biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 11:41
On Oct. 3, the day the Miers nomination was announced, Mr. Dobson and other religious conservatives held a conference call to discuss the nomination. One of the people on the call took extensive notes, which I have obtained. According to the notes, two of Ms. Miers's close friends--both sitting judges--said during the call that she would vote to overturn Roe.
---

What followed, according to the notes, was a free-wheeling discussion about many topics, including same-sex marriage. Justice Hecht said he had never discussed that issue with Ms. Miers. Then an unidentified voice asked the two men, "Based on your personal knowledge of her, if she had the opportunity, do you believe she would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade?"

"Absolutely," said Judge Kinkeade.

"I agree with that," said Justice Hecht. "I concur."
WSJ

Still think she's swell, PD? Zen?
 
572Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 12:04
Well, but she pays attention to the penumbras and emanations from the Constitution ... or maybe not. Amateur hour.
 
573Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 12:12
bili, that's just whistling in the wind. As you know, Roe v Wade isn't up for some renewal. I think that she might vote to chip away at it (once she falls under the spell of the conservatives on the court and allows them to proxy vote for her) but I'm not convinced she's as damaging as another Clarence Thomas.
 
574Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 12:18
PD -- do you say that with full appreciation for the views held by her off-and-on again boyfriend as well as her chosen church? Have you been to that sort of church, and do you honestly believe someone would voluntarily continue to associate with such a church if they didn't believe Roe should be overturned?

At the least, I think you have the possible movement going the wrong way. If she's on the court, the only way she would vote to keep Roe and its progeny (say, in the upcoming case this term) would be if she fell under the spell of Ginsburg.

More to the point, I don't think she has a firm grasp of Constitutional law. She will likely vote with her heart, which seems fairly characterized by those who know her best and with whom she identifies on that particular issue. Elsewhere, who knows; perhaps with Bush and Disney, etc.
 
575Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 12:54
571 Justice Hecht has also said on other occasions that he has never spoken with Miers about Roe, that he has no idea how Miers would vote, and that he doesn't think Miers would vote to overturn Roe. So the only thing we know is that Justice Hecht speaks with forked tongue. We conservative anti-Miers types would like to see both judges and all 13 travelling evangelist participants to the conference call subpoenaed by the Judiciary Committee! Give us circuses!

I myself have no idea how Miers would vote. What I do feel fairly sure of is that Miers has never thought Roe out legally, as opposed to being morally repelled by it. We know that HM has never thought Griswold through. (Schumer said she told him that she needs more time to "bone up" on it, but I'm not sure that was a direct HM quote or his characterization of where Miers was.) You can't reject Roe legally without thinking Griswold through.

574 If she's on the court, the only way she would vote to keep Roe and its progeny (say, in the upcoming case this term) would be if she fell under the spell of Ginsburg.

Or Kennedy. This term Roe will not directly be challenged, although Scalia and Thomas may issue opinions volunteering that Roe will be reversed. In this case HM can and IMO most likely will concur with Roberts, who will refuse to consider the topic until a direct attack on Roe is made and argued.

I appreciate what you say about the culture of such a church, Madman, but there are in fact people who attend such conservative churches who don't believe Roe. Miers also said, in a Texas bar association debate,
When you understand, as I do, that the choice issue is inextricably entwined with the debate of total freedom for women, for empowerment, you fully understand the depth of caring and emotion which accompany the efforts like those in support of this resolution.
Few people who say things like that are in favour of overruling Roe

In other news, in HM's answers to the Judiciary Committee questionnaire today she used language both about liberty and the place of precedent that directly tracks Kennedy's thinking in Casey, which refused to overrule Roe.

She's a cipher. Who knows what she'll do?

Toral
 
576Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 13:23
That is, there are in fact people who attend such conservative churches who don't believe Roe should be overturned
 
577Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 13:28
Good point #576. I was about to post that myself. I think it's also worth noting that if Miers attends the same church as Bush, Sr. did then it should not surprise anyone what her opinions on the topic might not exactly be set in stone.
 
578Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 13:52
Fund, who wrote the column in 571, is going all out in this good cause. Last week, he said there were 6 or 7 bad things about Miers that were going to come out shortly. Here's a transcript of a radio interview he did yesterday. In it he says:
JF: Oh, the Texas Lotter Commission is coming, of course. The Texas Lottery Commission is going to be very important, because it involves a Democratic lobbyist, Ben Barnes. It involves an executive director of the Texas Lottery Commission who was fired by Harriet Miers, who sued over his firing, got a $300,000 settlement, files were sealed. This fellow lives in New York right now. His name is (Lawrence) Litwin, he's a former control data executive, and he says the following: I can't talk about this, because of the confidentiality agreement. But if the Senate subpoenas me, I want to come, and I want to testify. And that opens a whole can of worms about President Bush, and scandals in Texas.

JB: President Bush tied personally to this scandal?

JF: His aides tied personally to this scandal, regarding the Texas Lottery Commission. And, out of concern that certain things regarding Mr. Bush's service in the Air National Guard. Remember that story?

Toral


 
579Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 14:42
Oh my, I'm licking my chops after reading 578!

And Bili, re 571, I never said I liked her, I've just stated that I like what she is not.
 
580Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 15:14
I think it's also worth noting that if Miers attends the same church as Bush, Sr.

The reason Bush attends St. John's is because that is where every President attends. Miers followed Bush. It says nothing about her beliefs. My wife was once a hardcore Christian conservative. Back in that day, she attended an episcopal church one summer because of availability. The observation that she attends St. John's says nothing.

Now, I agree that she likely hasn't thought it through and when she does, who knows what will happen. But that is the direction I suggested in 574; the reverse seems wholly implausible to me. If she would vote to overturn Roe, it's something she's already decided she will do.

And, since Valley View is too liberal for her, I suspect that if she declined to vote against overturning, she will do so knowing that she will never again be particularly welcome down there. As Dobson said, the blood of many children will then be squarely in her hands.
 
581Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 15:15
SZ 579 -- And Bili, re 571, I never said I liked her, I've just stated that I like what she is not. Intelligent?
 
582Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 15:33
Madman, I think you must have had a really bad experience at the ol'time church you attended. Perhaps the Mormons (or the Mormons who aren't really Mormons, the reformed church in Zion) are much more hard-line and judgmental than conservative evangelicals are. I think it's skewing your judgment a bit.

Miers followed Bush. It says nothing about her beliefs.

(1) Are we saying/conceding now that she is so worshipful of Bush that she has no beliefs? A hardcore religious-right conservative wouldn't do back there for a second time after scoping out the church and listening to one of Dr. Leon's sermons. She is clearly not one of those.

(2) There is a conservative evangelical Episcopalian church in HM's area that she would feel more comfortable with, if her evangelicalism is deeply felt. (Parishioners include Ollie North and Chuck Colson). She has been there twice, by reports, and made a donation. But she didn't join.
I think she's most likely a non-doctrinal evangelical, a religious seeker really (like President Bush).

And, since Valley View is too liberal for her, I suspect that if she declined to vote against overturning, she will do so knowing that she will never again be particularly welcome down there.

It's not really a liberal/not liberal issue. The new pastor decided to implement a new modernistic worship regime, with modern "praise music", rock bands, some kind of computer screen thing, "to appeal to the youth". It wasn't a theological dispute.

The idea that HM "wouldn't be welcome" if she voted pro-Roe is wrong, I believe. I think she would be welcomed with the same warmth however she votes.

Toral
 
583Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 15:48
It wasn't a theological dispute. Where did you get this? The belief.net article I linked to somewhere way above suggested that it was because Valley View wasn't sufficient orientated to missionary work.

Perhaps the Mormons (or the Mormons who aren't really Mormons, the reformed church in Zion) are much more hard-line and judgmental than conservative evangelicals are. I think it's skewing your judgment a bit.

I don't think I have ever attended an actual Mormon service. I am talking about my experience in Southern Baptist churches and the like. Read their newsletters and their Sunday School materials (which HM supposedly taught, yes? Although exactly WHEN she taught would also be informative since it has "evolved").
 
584Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 15:49
I should add to 583 that I am also reflecting as best I can my wife's experiences with organizations like Campus Crusade for Christ, etc. I'm talking about the type of people who kick Mormons out of the FCA because of their liberals beliefs.
 
585Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 16:05
The reason Bush attends St. John's is because that is where every President attends.

I'm just guessing here, but I'd pay you $10 if you found proof that JFK attended regularly. I'm also guessing Kerry would not have been attending St. John's, either. It's where every President attends perhaps because its a non-hardcore Protestant church, which dovetails with most Presidential religous philosophies. Not because it's aligned to the office of the President.
 
586Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 16:09
Sorry, I wasn't aware it was a Southern Baptist church. But I would add that HM's church seems to be (and I'm gleaning from what is reported) much less "doctrinal" than HM's church was/is.

Can't link to my sources about the nature of the VV dispute -- although they included Justice Hecht, who as we know is not a reliable witness.
I'll probably come across some of the sources again in my relentless Miers surfing and if so will link. But none of the sources have said that it was a theological dispute. At most it was a dispute about the amount of money the church spent on missionary outreach -- not about any principles. (Hecht, the media hustler, said something like 'They felt the money should be spent on ourselves. We felt more should be spent on outreach work, not building ourself fancier facilities.')

But, more importantly, the elders of the church, did a "neighbourhood survey" and found that there were many young people in the area that had never heard the Gospel. There was a kind of palace coup whereby the old pastor was deposed and a new guy was brought in to modernize the service, to install new music, rock bands and stuff.

If you attended such a church, you should know that there is nothing that can split a church so fast as such a change. An aunt of mine, who is the closest thing I know to a true saint, attended a Baptist church which went through such a "modernization". Preaching of the Gospel was replaced by modern hucksterism and worldly methods. The Wednesday night Bible study was replaced by something called the "Hour of Power". As a Christian, she did not complain or cavil, but she never attended that church again.

Toral
 
587Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 16:13
585 I'd go further. Is there any evidence that any president has attended there regularly before, even Bush I?

Toral
 
588Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 18:24
I'm just guessing here, but I'd pay you $10 if you found proof that JFK attended regularly. Seriously? Give it to the Guru or Ryan for DPS.

"St. John's Church, established in 1815, stands opposite the White House on the north side of Lafayette Square, once known as Federal or President's Square. The parish was organized to serve as a church for occupants of the White House and their families. James Madison, in office in 1815, was a communicant. Every Chief Executive since has attended regular or occasional services. Hence, St. John's has become known as the "Church of the Presidents." Pew 54 is the traditional President's Pew."

St. John's ... go to "history". :)

I guess you can quibble over "regularly" ... but the point is that St. John's is basically the White House Chapel.

.....

At most it was a dispute about the amount of money the church spent on missionary outreach -- not about any principles.

Many evangelicals believe that Jesus' first teaching is to go and be missionaries. I posted under the impression that they were one and the same ... i.e., theology drives the desire to become missionaries.

Regardless, we are way off topic. Hurdle #1: is she qualified.? No. If you don't pass that hurdle, there is no Hurdle #2. New name from the hat, please. She could be Saint Miers for all I care who would vote perfectly. But anyone who fumbles an interview with Specter over Griswold, writes no better than a decent high schooler, and/or has to "bone up" on basic Constitutional law shouldn't be appointed to the bench. Actually, even before that, anyone whose distinguishing credential is her association with the President should be disqualified. Period. No if's and's or but's. We aren't in the 19th century anymore. Actually, that wasn't even acceptable back then.

Give her an appelate court appointment if you must. But don't make a mockery of SCOTUS, please.
 
589Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 18:43
I guess you can quibble over "regularly" ... but the point is that St. John's is basically the White House Chapel.

Uhh, no. Good find, the history part of the church's website, congrats. How many times did previous presidents attend? How many times did Bush I attend? Keep in mind that I an Anglican/Epicopalian (U.S.) and I wouldn't trust the P.R. info on an A/E website as far as I could throw it.
------------------------------------

I agree with the rest of it. End this farce. Give HM a lower court appointment. Whatever.

Honest conservatives are not supporting this nomination (an understatement).

I just saw Sen. Santorum, pd's bete noir, ny favourite senator, on Lehrer (PBS).

He said, paraphrasing, "I am pro-life, but that's not the issue. There are many pro-choice people who have a solid and thought-out judicial philosophy that I would happily vote for. I want someone qualified on the Supreme Court."

Legal conservatives care about competence and are not result-oriented. We haven't fought for so long, built up a humongous judicial bench, to confirm a dingbat crony (albeit a nice person by all accounts).

Toral
 
590Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 18:50
I'd love for Santorum to name some of those people he would vote for. Hell, give me one name, Rick.
 
591Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 18:57
Chuck Schumer is blasting Miers tonight on Lehrer. Great! Schumer finally found one Bush nominee who knows even less about Constitutional Law than he does, and he is taking maximum advantage.

Toral
 
592Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 19:51
Here's a legit question. Harriet Miers' is fond of saying things like "While life tenure and independence should not be a license to usurp the rule of law in favor of a rule of man, they provide an essential structural protection to ensure that judges are able to make decisions based only on the fundamental vision of the Founders -- the rule of law."

Honestly, this makes no sense to me. "Rule of man" v. the "rule of law"? Clearly she is trying to express what judicial activism is all about, but equally as clearly -- I THINK -- is that a distinction between the rule of men and the rule of law is devoid of meaningful content, or is at least terribly imprecise.

I did a quick google, and the only places I found this discussed were Evangelical christian sites discussing the courts ... and Harriet Miers quotes. Should I be worried about this, or is the discussion of the "rule of men" versus the "rule of law" commonplace in law school?
 
593Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 20:00
"Rule of man" or men vs. "rule of law" is pretty evangelical, IMO. Sounds like evangelical roots.

You should be worried about this if you hate or distrust evangelical Christians.

Toral
 
594biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 20:09
"I hate the..." Evangelicals...",don't you?
"I don't know, but I seem to feel better when they're not around."
 
595Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 20:09
or is the discussion of the "rule of men" versus the "rule of law" commonplace in law school?

That's not language I heard in law school. I don't know that it's Evangelicalese though. Sounds more to me like HM was trying to speak a language she's not familar with and was struggling with the vocabulary of Constitutionalese. Her unfamilarity with the language may account for her telling Schumer she need to "bone up" on Griswold and then telling Specter she agreed with it Bad times.

I thought Schumer was actually being nice to her on Lehrer. After your nomination to SCOTUS is not the best time to start "boning up" and forming opinions on landmark SCOTUS cases.
 
596Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 20:16
mbj, so you must have seen Graham too. At one time I thot he might be a potential president. He was going back and forth today, tho. At a few times, I thot he might break out crying. He spoke well, but he emphasized the need for Miers to prove herself.

I still like Graham. Nobody else who is not on the WH payroll or an RNC shill is willing to go out and try to defend Miers.

Toral
 
597Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 21:34
BTW, my quote in 592 comes from her questionnaire: link ... see her concluding sentence on the very last question ... about judicial activism.

But she has used that phrase before; on the Volokh Conspiracy they (can't remember who) picked out a quote where she used it, but they didn't criticize that portion of the quote. Bizarre.

Sincere thanks for your expert opinions. I didn't think it was code from law school, but I wanted to make sure.

Is this the Schumer / Graham interview under discussion?
 
598Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 22:14
Yes, that's the interview.

One note. Sen. Graham said "I've been in our Senate caucus today with Republicans, not one senator was affected by this."

So there was a GOP Senate caucus today. I follow the blogs, etc., and this evening, 5 and counting conservative GOP senators have said (reported first in their local papers, then online, and then to the world) that they are not impressed by HM's qualifications.

I read this as saying this should be over soon, unless Bush is an a super-bullheaded mode. It may be that a delegation of "men in suits" (in Maggie Thatcher's phrase) will descend on the president and tell him that this escapade is over.

Anyway, if you have HM contracts on TradeSports: Sell, at any price.

Toral

 
599Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 09:12
Anytime a Senator has to come out and repeatedly deny "This has not affected us" then you know, by definition, that it has affected them. Although I was disturbed by the occassional hints that this wouldn't be decided by the masses.

I wrote Graham a letter several days ago on this subject. I got an auto-reply back that he only responds to mail from SC'ers. Fair enough. He has deeply disappointed me on this issue, but my affinity for his philosophies and respect for his person are more than sufficient to outweigh this singular disagreement. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't showing loyalty to the White House for strategic reasons here; he had surely been pushing his reputation on other issues -- Social Security, Guantanamo, etc., -- that if he openly opposed them again, he might have been kicked out of the party (only partly joking).

.......

Will this be over soon?

Here's a scary, scary theory.

HM told Bush she didn't want the job. After Rehnquist died, Card and others secretly began pushing her name. In her questionnaire, she said that she never said that she would accept. After several meetings with Bush supposedly to discuss her nomination, she finally accepted during a personal dinner on Oct. 2.

During that time period, significant consultation occurred with religious leaders, and we know that this appointment was motivated at least in part by religious affinity.

What if GWB made her religion part of the appeal? What if that was the fact that made her change her mind?

I'm not big into the "God told me to do it" conspiracy theorists, but this theory explains two otherwise strange facts. First, it explains her reversal of opinion. Second, it may explain why Dobson and others were so heavily involved prior to the nomination and why they may have had "inside information". That inside information wasn't how she would vote, it was instead information that God was acting through GWB. It then became a matter of faith.

Dunno. Just throwing it out there. For the record, that was my wife's idea after I told her HM's story. I asked her "What could have happened to make her change her mind?"

And yes, there are many possibilities, but this is an especially cute fictional tale. ;)
 
600Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 09:12
Crap. I forgot the conclusion ... if my "story" from 599 is correct, it will take more than a bit of disillusionment from Republican Senators to get her to withdraw.
 
601Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 10:06
Madman, I suspect that Dobson and others would have been involved in any SCOTUS pre-confirmation discussion. The fact that they were involved in this one is a bit of a wash, IMO.
 
602Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 10:17
PD 601 -- Dobson's response to Miers was virtually instantaneous. His response to Roberts was quick, but it did take a day to come out. It's hard to recreate the Roberts nomination, even this close after it happened.

I agree that it's not dispositive. But if you buy that there was some nugget of information exchanged between Rove and Dobson and if you likewise take them at their word that it was not a specific policy promise, something focused on her religion -- or George Bush's -- strikes me as a reasonable conclusion.
 
603Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 10:40
Well, I think you're right that religion was a focus, but because it was Dobson et al I don't think they'd be using any other litmus test--religion would have been the focus of the meeting in any case, in other words.
 
604Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 17:41
This could turn into a tragedy. Specter and Leahy are rightfully not satisfied with her questionnaire responses. link.

Notice also question #20.

"20. Party to Civil Legal or Administrative Proceedings: State whether you, or any business of which you are or were an officer or any partnership, trust or other business entity with which you are or were involved, have ever been a party or otherwise involved as a party in any civil, legal or administrative proceedings. If so, please describe in detail the nature of your participation in the litigation and the final disposition of the case."


The answer:


"As is the case with any major law firm, my firm was a party to a number of law suits over my thirty years of practice. However, in none of these was I, or my work, the subject of complaint."

She acted as a spokesperson in at least one complaint, however. link.

this is above and beyond the sheer stupidity of her responses.

Washington politicians may look stupid and inept, but that is only relative to the big leagues in which they are playing. Harriet Miers is going to get eaten for lunch and it is going to get ugly.
 
605Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 19:06
Harriet Miers is going to get eaten for lunch and it is going to get ugly.

So, Madman, are you going on the record that she will not be confirmed? I'll take $10 of that, payable to Guru, of course.
 
606Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 19:51
SZ -- sure, I'll take that action.

I normally don't like to take bets where there is a chance I'll lose. But I'll break that rule in this case for fun. (in other words, I won't take all comers)

The rationalization for my bet: she is a weak candidate with no firm support. At some point, her weakness will sabatoge her chances; she will make an irrecoverable mis-step.

........

Like, for example, on her questionnaire. Is she or is she not a Board member of National Girls, Inc.? Why did she get the dates for her suspected bar membership incorrect? Why wasn't she forthcoming about the events in 604?

Why couldn't she answer question #18 in a straightforward manner?

Why does such a detail person with a red-ink pen for grammar mistakes write so terribly with so many grammar mistakes?

Why did she take 33% longer to incompletely fill out a basic questionnaire on her experiences?
 
607Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 23:45
Althouse and the blogosphere are catching up with Madman 550.
 
608Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 12:38
"Progress for America" jumps in to save the nomination!
 
609Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 11:55
A withering column by the WSJ. Her Tradesports contract reportedly dropped to 20% today.

She is in trouble. And the Texas Lottery Commission bits, the 1998 payments from the Bush gubernatorial campaign, her omissions on the questionnaire regarding firm lawsuits, her mistakes (or worse) suggesting she was not on the Board of companies when they were suffering ethical problems, all of these things are distracting from the true problem which is that she is simply not qualified. It will take a John Roberts' level of brilliance to rescue a nominee in this sort of environment with this background.

And, by the way, did I mention that the Washington Times is reporting that the White House was terminating Senatorial visits because (a) they were hurting her, and (b) she needs the extra time to cram?
 
610Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 11:59
If [the president] ventures upon a system of favoritism, he will not escape censure, and can scarcely avoid public detection and disgrace . . . . A president, chosen from the nation at large, may well be presumed to possess high intelligence, integrity, and sense of character. He will be compelled to consult public opinion in the most important appointments; and must be interested to vindicate the propriety of his appointments by selections from those, whose qualifications are unquestioned, and unquestionable. If he should act otherwise, and surrender the public patronage into the hands of profligate men, or low adventurers, it will be impossible for him long to retain public favour. Nothing, no, not even the whole influence of party, could long screen him from the just indignation of the people. Though slow, the ultimate award of popular opinion would stamp upon his conduct its merited infamy . . . .

-- Justice Joseph Story

ConfirmThem Hat-tip

Washington is chewing up a wonderful woman. And it has to. And it is a good thing, sad though it may be.
 
611Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 12:04
Curious about what the forum thinks of Krauthammer's 'Exit Strategy' column today.
Sen. Lindsey Graham has been a staunch and public supporter of this nominee. Yet on Wednesday he joined Brownback in demanding privileged documents from Miers's White House tenure.

Finally, a way out: irreconcilable differences over documents.

For a nominee who, unlike John Roberts, has practically no record on constitutional issues, such documentation is essential for the Senate to judge her thinking and legal acumen. But there is no way that any president would release this kind of information -- "policy documents" and "legal analysis" -- from such a close confidante. It would forever undermine the ability of any president to get unguarded advice.

That creates a classic conflict, not of personality, not of competence, not of ideology, but of simple constitutional prerogatives: The Senate cannot confirm her unless it has this information. And the White House cannot allow release of this information lest it jeopardize executive privilege.

Hence the perfectly honorable way to solve the conundrum: Miers withdraws out of respect for both the Senate and the executive's prerogatives, the Senate expresses appreciation for this gracious acknowledgment of its needs and responsibilities, and the White House accepts her decision with the deepest regret and with gratitude for Miers's putting preservation of executive prerogative above personal ambition.

Faces saved. And we start again.

 
612Razor
      ID: 1477414
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 12:17
I trust the rightists have read this blistering commentary on Bush and Miers by none other than Bobby Bork. Good piece, but after reading it, I'm glad Bork got borked.
 
613Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 12:50
MITH 611 -- I'd like that result. However, my reaction when I read that same news was the direct oppose: "Oh crap".

Don't get me wrong: I was thrilled to see Graham join the as-yet-to-be-declared hostilities. But I don't see the WH engaging in this "face saving" gesture. *MAYBE* some portion of Miers' previous reluctance will resurface, but I suspect that she is mostly insulated. Heck, GWB is probably insulated from virtually all conservative thought on the matter.

Further, the distinction Krauthammer makes here between Roberts and Miers doesn't apply to WH thinking. The WH accurately thinks that they "got away" without giving up the documents in the case of Roberts. I see no reason to suggest they will change their thinking here.

I would love it if GWB or HEM backed off by using this as a pretext. But I don't think there has been a sufficiently intense firestorm to this point. The heat has to break through many layers of GWB insulation first.
 
614Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 12:54
BTW, implicit in my 613 is the assumption that Republican Senators, not having pushed to the wall in Roberts, will likewise not be able to push to the wall here.

I grant that Krauthammer is right on the relative merits and issues involved. But as a political point, the distinction between the papers of Roberts and Miers isn't sufficiently strong to push Graham and others so far as to absolutely INSIST that GWB cave on the issue (which is, to repeat, what I think it will take for GWB to realize what he has done here).

This is a good step. But we need many more like it. This is going to have to be death by Chinese water torture and, to be blunt, GWB can bear a lot of pain before changing his mind.

(Caveat: if there is a trusted inside operator like Rove who is working to undermine this nomination, the entire analysis could be different. I have not seen evidence for such a person.)
 
615Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 13:12
WH rejects "conservative" senator's request to withdraw the nomination.

Also, I will point out that Harriet Miers' incompetency is staggering. For example, Specter and Leahy asked her to clarify question 11a ... here ... "Inform the committee whether you appeared in court while your nomination was suspended, they asked" (paraphrased). A reasonable question. I'm sure the answer is "no" and we can move on.

Her response? "BTW, my Texas bar license was suspended, as well." No info. on whether she practiced during that time period or not! WTF?

There is a reason why she has a reputation for attention to detail and precision. I'm afraid the reason is that those are, relatively speaking, her notable intellectual skills.
 
616biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 13:22
My biggest fear is that the senate somehow gets bogged down in all the minor details of why she shouldn't be confirmed, eventually get reasonably acceptable answers to theose details and then confirm; completely ignoring the elephant in the room: her intellectual mediocrity.
 
617Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 13:24
br 616 -- I completely agree.
 
618Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 13:31
PD 608 is indeed striking ...

National Law Journal: Harriet Miers One Of “The Fifty Most Influential Women Lawyers In America.” “Harriet E. Miers 52, President of Dallas’ Locke Purnell Rain Harrell P.C. Ms. Miers is a big wheel in the big state of Texas, where she is chair of the Texas Lottery Commission and the personal attorney of Gov. George W. Bush. She was general counsel to Gov. Bush’s transition team when he first became governor. She is also a trustee of the Southwestern Legal Foundation and a former member of the Dallas city council. A trailblazer, she was the first woman to be made managing partner of a major Texas law firm, the first woman elected president of the State Bar of Texas, the first woman elected president of the Dallas Bar Association, and the first woman hired by Locke Purnell. She is a commercial litigator who represents such clients as Microsoft and Disney, but she also has a substantial pro bono practice and is vice chair of the State Bar of Texas’ Legal Services to the Poor in Civil Matters committee. She received her degree in 1967 from Southern Methodist University School of Law. Last year, she was named to the NLJ’s list of 100 most powerful attorneys.”

So much for the theory that this was based upon a ranking of her capabilities as a lawyer instead of her association with GWB.
......

National Review’s Rich Lowry: “I think she’ll be confirmed easily.” (ABC’s “Nightline,” 10/3/05)

Lowry opposes her nomination.

With friends like this, you don't need any enemies.

Hat-tip Frum
 
619Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 23:15
The Washington Post contradicts the Washington Times info. that I mentioned in 609. I'll trust that the Post is right and that Miers will continue to meet with Senators. Score one for Miers. I hope her critics don't get too carried away and hurt their own arguments in the process. :)
 
620Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Sat, Oct 22, 2005, 19:44
602 I really don't buy, and can't even completely follow, the God-angles as Madman is exploring them. Dobson was called before the nomination because he had to be given a hard sell to accept a nominee with no record. Rove told him
1) that Miers is pro-life; 2) that the president wanted a woman; 3) that some other nominess had considered had taken their names out of consideration (here add some sob stories about how the evil liberals would have skewered some of the nominees because of past misdeeds).

As for HM changing her mind -- Card and Bush just flattered her into it, I imagine. She seems pretty susceptible to the hard sell.
--------------------------------------------
OTOH I haven't been able to come up with any remotely sensible reason why Bush would pick Miers, so the call from God stays eligible as an explanation.

Toral
 
621Madman
      ID: 249262210
      Sat, Oct 22, 2005, 19:49
OTOH I haven't been able to come up with any remotely sensible reason why Bush would pick Miers, so the call from God stays eligible as an explanation.

If I had another explanation, as well, I'd readily share. But every day that passes, I am becoming more and more concerned that it is something like this that caused this nomination, and that is preventing its withdrawal. Every day that passes, the potential for serious damage and fracture increases.
 
622Seattle Zen
      ID: 179472013
      Mon, Oct 24, 2005, 00:17
 
623Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Mon, Oct 24, 2005, 04:02
If Bonesmen can stack the roster of presidents, why not the SCOTUS? Her biggest qualification seems to be that she's Bush's lawyer.
 
625Seattle Zen
      ID: 179472013
      Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 00:40
"I think, if you were to hold the vote today, she would not get a majority, either in the Judiciary Committee or on the floor," Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, a leading Democrat on the committee, said on NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday. "I think there is maybe one or two on the Judiciary Committee who have said they'd support her as of right now. And I think you have concern on these three areas -- qualification, independence, judicial philosophy -- by people of both parties and all political stripes."

- Washington Post.
 
626Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 18:56
Here's a cartoon posted primarily for the enjoyment of my buddy Seattle Zen. Grabbed from a conservative blogsite, whose readers enjoyed it too.



 
627Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 02:54
NYT: GOP Senators Doubting Miers

Quote of the day:
Asked if the debate had become "one-sided," with too few defending Ms. Miers, Senator Sessions, the Alabama Republican, struggled for words, then pushed a button for a nearby elevator in the Capitol building and told an aide, "Get me out of here."
 
628Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 09:52
Two more speeches #1 ... #2 ... I tend to agree with the sentiments expressed in the first speech, but generally cringe at the way she articulated those sentiments. So sloppy that I'm not entirely certain what she was driving at.

The second speech also rings of what I would call a lack of sophistication. I'm reasonably convinced that she doesn't understand "conservative" arguments about the meaning of equality after reading it. This isn't a sin, but it is sad. Although, perhaps again she just doesn't know how to express herself.

Here's the associated Washington Post story ... the discussion of quotes there about self-determination seem entirely off the mark, especially the quotes by NARAL.

For whatever it is worth, however, my argument that she is likely to be "conservative" in a consequentialist sense is looking weaker and weaker the more info. that comes out. I really have no idea how she will rule consequentially. I am fairly convinced that her opinions will be mindless mish-mash, however, whichever conclusion she decides to reach.

This is just FUBAR'd beyond belief.
 
629Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 10:36
Welcome to 150 posts ago.
 
630Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 11:33
Former NARAL Pro-Choice America president Kate Michelman said the right to self-determination is at the heart of the case law granting a woman's right to an abortion.

"If you take what she said at face value, you would conclude that she recognizes the right of a woman to choose an abortion as a matter of self-determination," Michelman said.
I believe Michelman is right on.

Can't seem to cut and paste in pdf today but pg. 11 in speech 1 is an unambiguous pro-choice statement contrasting "the attempt to once again criminalize abortions or to once and for all guarantee the freedon of the individual women's right to decide for herself whether top have an abortion."

Any hope or fear that her Roe decisions will be dictated by evangelical anti-abortion religious beliefs is dead now IMO.

The speeches also contain arguments from the classic defences used by those who believe in what president Bush calls "legislating from the bench".

Based on these speeches Miers becomes easy to pigeonhole: judicial liberal, social liberal, just as my instincts told me as discussed in various posts above. Very much tracking Justice Kennedy's approach in Casey.

Toral
 
631Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 11:37
An e-mailer in The Corner makes the same point:
today's article in the Post is really important assuming the quotes are in context. Miers appears to be responding to RECENT cases that her audience would have known. That means she was talking about Casey (1992) (reaffirming Roe) and Lee v. Weisman (1992) (striking down graduation prayer), and trying to put them in an understandable intellectual context. When you read the article with this in mind, it becomes painfully obvious that she's offering an intellectual justification for the outcomes in those cases — both of which are anathema to conservatives. Maybe she's walked away from those views now, but there's nothing conservative about them.
 
632Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 12:07
I didn't think of the Casey angle.

I retract the part of 628 referring to NARAL. Her penchant to always say what she thinks the listener wants to hear is the only refuge for conservatives. Well, that and her absolute butchering of the King's English; maybe she misspoke.

This is now going from bad to worse, since she may start to win Democratic support. She may be a buffoon, but she will be their buffoon.

Although, if I were a Democrat, the exact same argument I was making about Miers tanking the conservative cause could now backfire and hit them. That's it ... Bush's strategy was to nominate liberal idiots. I wonder if these political views are going to make it likely she'll get a "Well qualified" rating from the ABA.

This is going to get ugly, because now even if she withdraws, it will look like it was done because she was too liberal. The left can paint this as the radical right whining and taking control. Damn you, Mr. Bush.

Razor -- I look at the evidence available, and make a call. 150 posts ago, that seemed to weigh more on the side of the conservatives. After much digging, I found different evidence and changed my mind. That is hardly arriving at where you were 150 posts ago. Getting the process right and having decent reasons to actually BELEIVE something are things that are important to me. From this debate here and around the country, it is clear that this is a value that few share when confronted with the allure of power.
 
633Seattle Zen
      ID: 179472013
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 20:02
but generally cringe at the way she articulated those sentiments. So sloppy that I'm not entirely certain what she was driving at.

Ah, ha, I know why Madman despises her so... since most of us cringe at the way you articulate your sentiments as we are not entirely certain at what you are driving at... familiarity breeds contempt.

I recognize quite a few people from this very neighborhood in that lynch mob in post 626 :)
 
634Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 20:17
familiarity breeds contempt I am flattered that you put me in the company of a SCOTUS nominee. Let me assure you, however, that I am wholly unqualified, just as she.

Was that an understandable sentiment?
 
635Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 20:28
Harriet misses the deadline again for her supplementary questionnaire.
 
636Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 21:39
Toral 635 -- when are you going to end your hateful and unjustified attacks on Harriet? The letter from Leahy and Specter specifically stated that she was to return answers to the Senate's questions by Wednesday, October 26th. Only a biased, anti-Harriet hater would assume them meant Wednesday, 10/26/2005. There's a Wednesday 10/26/2011. I bet she's waiting so that she can acquire, you know, some actual qualifications. Typical of right-wing extremists, always assuming the worst.

;)
 
637Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 08:58
Miers asks Bush to withdraw! Cites (at least part of) Krauthammer's pretext from the link in post 611.
 
639Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:08
Miers withdraws.

Sigh. Finally, a step in the right direction. I feel sorry for her, I really do. But we need to move on.
 
640Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:11
Her Letter to the President ... As MITH 637 notes, it seems predicated on the "out" discussed by Krauthammer. I clearly need to read him more often.
 
641Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:14
And I am just biased, or is that really the best thing she's written that's on the public record? Every sentence hangs together and makes sense. The only quibble is that judges do make Law.
 
642Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:14
C'mon, MM, don't be afraid to call it as you see it. Victory is plenty accurate. For all of us.
 
643Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:20
"Victory" in the sense that we have escaped a terrible nominee. I really don't feel elation. Relief, but no elation.

Where do we go from here, I don't know. Personally, I think I'd almost be willing to accept a Ruth Bader Ginsburg, this has exhausted me so. I wonder if the social conservatives like Brownback will feel emboldened or humbled, and whether Bush is going to try to cram his personal tax attorney down his throat next.

And tremendous damage has been done to this administration and some of its supporters, like Hewitt.

I wonder if Bush admits he made a mistake or whether this was Harriet's idea.
 
644Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:21
whether Bush is going to try to cram his personal tax attorney down his throat next

Ha! down our throats ... but maybe it would get shoved down his throat, regardless. A Mierism. Sorry.
 
645Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:38
it'll be interesting to see what happens next.

does Bush nominate someone relative safe (in regards to being confirmed, ala John Roberts), after this fire storm, or does he appeal to the base who was furious about this nomination, and go for some ultra-right wing whacko?

Miers stepping down sort of allows the dems to hold onto their trump card, and can give any sort of far rightist nominee a very hard time, as they didn't have to use it on her.
 
646Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:45
Razor -- I look at the evidence available, and make a call. 150 posts ago, that seemed to weigh more on the side of the conservatives. After much digging, I found different evidence and changed my mind. That is hardly arriving at where you were 150 posts ago. Getting the process right and having decent reasons to actually BELEIVE something are things that are important to me. From this debate here and around the country, it is clear that this is a value that few share when confronted with the allure of power.

I figured you'd say something to this effect. I'm glad you gathered enough evidence to surmise that Miers isn't that conservative, and I'm sure it's more than any of us had two weeks ago. However, that you argued so viligantly for quite a while that Miers couldn't be anything but ultra-conservative while ignoring every other poster here and many, many, many pundits on both sides speaks to you having either a high level mistrust of everyone else's reasoning skills or an extreme overconfidence in your own ability.

Anyway, regarding the Miers withdrawal, I'd bet a fair amount of money that Bush got word from Capitol Hill that his own party's senators were prepared to defeat this nomination if it came down to it. I still believe that if Bush believed he had the votes to win this fight, he'd have gone through with it.

And now we play the waiting game, something conservatives have to be eagerly looking forward to, just as they did pre-Miers, and something the left has to be dreading even more now that Bush knows that he has his party's full support to nominate someone much more conservative. No Luttig please.
 
647Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 09:48
Another Roberts-like nominee would appeal to his base just fine, I think.

However, judges with both the credentials and political "unknowns" (which I think is what you mean by "reletively safe") don't grow on trees. Choosing a nominee whose political positions were reletively unknown was exactly the motive behind Miers. And she was hardly "safe" by any reasonable standard.
 
648The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:00
The next nomination will be a woman.

Wouldn't a prudent president run his proposed nominaton by his own party's Senator's in the judicial committee? If they're not going to vote for her, then why bother? I don't understand why he did this.

Wouldn't a reasonable person foresee a conflict with getting records due to executive priviledge?

Who was the Clinton administration equivalent to Miers? Vince Foster? David Kendall?

 
649Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:08
Wouldn't a prudent president run his proposed nominaton by his own party's Senator's in the judicial committee?

I believe he asked the members of the Judicial committee to come up with names of potential candidates who they might accept as nominees. Miers was endorsed by t least one Dem on the committee so I think he counted on at least some Democrat support and felt that his personal assurances would be enough to get enough Republicans to go along.

Looking at the cronyism rampant in through his Presidency it shouldn't surprise us that he never considered competance a significant factor.
 
650Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:24
It's high time he draw the line in the sand and nominate a real conservative. I don't expect it but if he has any conservative leanings at all...
 
651Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:24
now that Bush knows that he has his party's full support to nominate someone much more conservative. No Luttig please.

Razor I fail to see why he wouldn't have had that support before. I think that someone "much more conservative" was exactly what the party was expecting following the Roberts confirmation. I imagine Madman disagrees but I believe a primary motivating factor for congressional Republicans who opposed her was that she lacked a comprehensive history of evidence of strong legal conservative convictions. I believe they saw another Kennedy. A staunch conservative in the Scalia mold is what they've wanted all along.
 
652sarge33rd
      ID: 670916
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:24
just dont let this happen;

Before Bush chose Miers, speculation focused on Miers and two other Bush loyalists: Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Bush’s longtime friend who would be the first Hispanic on the court...
 
653Pancho Villa
      ID: 57582616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:37
I find the timing of this withdrwal rather curious, given that there is a very good possibility that Libby and Rove will be indicted today or tomorrow.
The impact of a Supreme Court nomination being withdrawn might well relegate these indictments to below the fold status.
 
654Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:38
Razor I fail to see why he wouldn't have had that support before

I didn't say that, MITH. I said that he knows, after the outcry over the Miers nomination, that he has his party's full support to nominate a strong conservative rather than just speculating. Bush underestimated how much support he has and how important it is to his base. I doubt he makes the same mistake twice.
 
655Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:41
I find the timing of this withdrwal rather curious, given that there is a very good possibility that Libby and Rove will be indicted today or tomorrow. Yhe impact of a Supreme Court nomination being withdrawn might well relegate these indictments to below the fold status.

The timing of these events were bound to coincide, more or less. Miers was set to go before Congress by November 7, so she had to be withdrawn soon or not at all. The indictments, if any, will have to come today or tomorrow. I think you are reading too much into it. When the administration has f'ed up so many things, there are bound to be days where the bungles overlap with the scandals.
 
656Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:44
I agree with Razor re the timing coincidence. But I wouldn't be surprised to see the grand jury in the CIA leak case extended.
 
657Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 10:53
If you'd like to see 500 words of pure BS, click here.

Thank you for withdrawing your nomination in order to protect "confidential" White House documents. Harriet Miers, you are a true American hero.
 
658Pancho Villa
      ID: 57582616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 11:06
Where in the constitution are there provisions for executive privilege?
Is there such a thing as judicial privilege? Congressional privilege? Why is it that only the White House seems to have this privilege that allows it to have secret workings that deny our citizens their constitutional right to know how our government officials arrive at their decisions?
 
659Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 11:13
Razor 646 -- many, many, many pundits on both sides speaks to you having either a high level mistrust of everyone else's reasoning skills or an extreme overconfidence in your own ability

"I'd bet a fair amount of money that Bush got word from Capitol Hill that his own party's senators were prepared to defeat this nomination if it came down to it."

"I doubt enough GOP Senators have the guts to go against the President"

Hmmm. Why would I not blindly accept your *unsupported* opinions. Perhaps you have an extreme overconfidence in your reasoning skill.

[and, for whatever it is worth, the best evidence still suggests that she'd be an "ultra-conservative" on some issues, specifically with respect to being deferential to the executive branch, with respect to executive power. Her 1993 speech can be interpreted as being a judicial activist in favor of "solutions" in the face of problems. In terms of consequences, that's perhaps in the mold of Thomas but not of Scalia, but it's not in the mold of either in terms of process, something that your "well-reasoned" simplistic "there's an ultraconservative Scalia/Thomas mold" might have difficulty with.]

.............

Bush underestimated how much support he has and how important it is to his base. So you are saying that Bush nominated an "evangelical crony who has stated unequivocally that she would work for a constitutional amendment to ban virtually all abortion" in order to win Democratic support because he only *speculated* that his base might support a conservative candidate and he couldn't take that chance. Oy.

Contrast that well-reasoned position to the most obvious alternative ... that Bush wanted to nominate a woman, and the entire Bush family is loyal and tends to support and encourage cronyism; Miers is vehemently pro-life in her personal life and mouths a bunch of mish-mash platitudes that ring true to a relatively ignorant President.

Nah, that can't be it.
 
660Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 11:16
Regarding the timing, she had to submit a questionnaire by midnight last night. That questionnaire specifically asked for those documents.

If the "we can't release private documents" trick proposed by Krauthammer was going to hold any weight and win the newscycle, she had to withdraw at a time when she could plausibly claim that this made her change her mind. Fill out the questionnaire and claim that the documents aren't relevant, and that 'out' is weakened.

If they wanted it to coincide to "hide" indictments, they should have waited util the timing of after Fitzgerald's press conference was announced.
 
661Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 11:25
BTW, I will also point out that we are only assuming that she withdrew because of political pressure.

She also was asked for specifics about her two bar suspensions, lawsuits that her firm had been involved with that she had not reported, and there were significant warning signs about her time at the Texas Lottery Commission and a host of other ugliness.

It is also plausible that the WH realized that she wasn't going to be able to fill out the questionnaire in such a way as to protect both her and Bush. Rather than going through another round of non-answering, they had to pull the plug.

I'd like to think that blogosphere pressure had something to do with this, but maybe not. In other words, there could be more than just the appearance of corruption. Not saying it's likely, but it is possible and I'm surprised Democrats aren't pointing that out.

I suppose the more effective storyline is that the ultraconservatives in the Republican party made the moderate and sensitive Bush withdraw a moderate and sensitive nominee.
 
662Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 11:29
It's high time he draw the line in the sand and nominate a real conservative someone who will erode women's rights, ignore the beliefs of non-Christians, and prevent further strides in equality from homosexuals. I don't expect it but if he has any conservative leanings at all...
 
663Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 11:31
Andrew Sullivan this morning:
THE KRAUTHAMMER SOLUTION: In the end, the Bush team decided to deploy what seems to me a transparently phony argument that executive privilege over confidential papers forced them to withdraw Miers. The Bush statement is particularly lame:
"It is clear that senators would not be satisfied until they gained access to internal documents concerning advice provided during her tenure at the White House _ disclosures that would undermine a president's ability to receive candid counsel. Harriet Miers' decision demonstrates her deep respect for this essential aspect of the constitutional separation of powers - and confirms my deep respect and admiration for her."
All of this was scripted in advance in Charles Krauthammer's latest column. Either he's brilliant and clairvoyant - and he is, of course - or he was nudged to air the strategy in advance. Or both.
 
664Pancho Villa
      ID: 57582616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 11:50
disclosures that would undermine a president's ability to receive candid counsel. Harriet Miers' decision demonstrates her deep respect for this essential aspect of the constitutional separation of powers

If the Seante were seeking candid counsel that occured when Miers was Bush's personal attorney, then I would agree that it would violate lawyer/client confidentiality.
However, as White House counsel, she is a public employee, paid by taxpayers, and therefore all advice should be public record.
Again, where in the constitution is a provision for the executive branch to operate under a cloak of secrecy whenever it sees fit not to release what is the publics' business?
Scalia skirted this issue with Cheney's back-room energy shenanigans because the participants were private citizens, not public employees. It could then be validated that these private citizens were immune from having their meetings publicized for confidentiality purposes - even though, in reality, they were in the process of molding public energy policy. Still, this advice came from the private sector and still had to be ratified by congress before becoming law.
 
665Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 12:18
Praise the Lord.
 
666sarge33rd
      ID: 670916
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 12:21
technically, wouldnt client-attorney privalege be limited to an attorney and their client? Since as White House Counsel, the attorney in question is serving the US Government, and the Legislature is clearly a part of that, then the Legislature would also be party as a client. Only if the attorney were representing strictly the President (as in a civil matter for ex) would atty-client rights be applicable. Right, wrong??????
 
667Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 12:53
Tom Bevan @ Real Clear Politics
A more speculative interpretation of the timing of the withdrawal is that the President knows there are indictments coming down tomorrow and needs to have his base support consolidated. He can use news of a new appointment to deflect attention from any possible bad news from the Fitzgerald investigation.

Indictments or not, expect Bush to nominate someone who will immediately set off a firestorm from liberal special interest groups and provoke a major battle on the hill that will get his administration off the defensive.
 
668Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 13:13
The President's ideal goal is a nominee for whom sufficient GOP members of the Gang of 14 would vote to break a filibuster should one occur.

Lots of reasonable choices. Luttig, McConnell, Alito, Williams, Batchelder, Sykes, Corrigan, Olson, Garza, Wilkinson, Owen, 2 different people named Clement.

The other option is to go for 1 of the 2 unconfirmable people who would REALLY unite the base: Edith Jones and Janice Rogers Brown.

Toral
 
669Pancho Villa
      ID: 57582616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 13:54
McConnell would be a solid choice in the mold of Roberts. He would sail through the nomination process because he's extremely qualified, extremely brilliant, and has the same stoic demeanor Roberts displayed when grilled by the Senate.
His conservative credentials are solid, yet not too far right(Luttig, Alito, Brown) as to allow for a united Democratic opposition.

Why Bush won't nominate him, though he's the most qualified on the list - male and white. That slot went to Roberts.
 
670Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 14:07
I agree that McConnell is the most qualified choice. He is an originalist however, and Specter hates originalists. He's not in personality "Bush's type of guy".

The hope, my hope, is that Bush has learned something -- that the above things aren't important. Pick the most qualified person. In particular, Bush needs to forget looking for someone he's 'personally comfortable with'. Bush's not going to have to work with the person. Just look at qualifications.

I believe that such a nomination makes sense from Bush's own political perspective. He lost a lot of trust, 100% of it in some cases, picking Miers, and took personal heat. If he nominates McConnell he gets that trust goes back. If McConnell loses -- so what? (from Bush's point of view). Conservative anger will be focussed at the RINOs who won't break the filibuster. I don't buy that such a loss somehow saps Bush's political strength. If Miers' loss hurts Bush it's only because Bush 's personal knowledge and trust of her was the only selling point for the nomination. Bork's loss hurt Reagan not a whit.

I really don't think Bush should even be interviewing the nominees. Reagan's total personal contact with O'Connor before the nomination: a 15 minute talk.

Toral
 
671Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 14:16
He is an originalist however, and Specter hates originalists.

What's the difference between originalist and constructionist?
 
672Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 14:27
"Originalist" is a fairly precise term indicating belief that the constitution's provisions should be interpreted according to its original meaning or original intent.

"Strict constructionist" is a vague term with no agreed meaning. Scalia for example says that he is not a strict constructionist. The term I believe was popularized by Richard Nixon in 1968 and has been a mantra of every GOP president since. Insofar as it has any meaning, it suggests "someone who doesn't agree with expansive liberal opinions".

Toral
 
673Mark L
      ID: 23914710
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 14:44
McConnell has written an originalist defense of Brown v. Board of Education. If that article is persuasive, then he is unquestionably brilliant.
 
674Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 14:47
Mark L -- do you know anything about Sykes?
 
676Mark L
      ID: 23914710
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 15:10
You probably have to discount this because I have a pretty high opinion of Diane Sykes, but here goes.

She started her career as a law clerk for [then] federal district judge Terry Evans, who is now her colleague on the Seventh Circuit. She then worked for the law firm where Gumby [of the basketball boards] and I are now colleagues. At the time she was married to the very conservative radio talk show host Charlie Sykes. From what I remember (I have only talked with her a few times and the last was quite a while ago) she was conservative well before she married Charlie, though. She was active in the Federalist Society, again to the best of my recollection while she was still in private practice.

Fairly early on (about 8-10 years out of law school) she was appointed to the state trial-level court here in Milwaukee. She was inexperienced but acknowledged that, and it did not take her long to become one of the better trial judges in Milwaukee County. Hard worker and always prepared; not only read the briefs but would do research on her own and have questions for counsel if the briefs didn't answer her questions. I never tried a case before her, though.

She was a trial judge for six or seven years, then was elected to the Wisconsin Supreme Court in 1999. She is unequestionably conservative; her opinions are well-reasoned and well-written. She was a match or more for the Court's leading liberal light, Justice Shirley Abrahamson. She has been on the Seventh Circuit for about a year. She was strongly supported by both senators - Feingold and Kohl. Some believe that their support was a political play because her departure from the state Supreme Court allowed the governor, a fairly liberal Democrat, to appoint a replacement, but it was clear to me that although there was a political angle, there was more to their support than just that.

She hasn't been a federal judge for long, true, but she's been a judge for almost 20 years and an appellate judge for 6 years. She's definitely qualified.
 
677Mark L
      ID: 23914710
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 15:12
OK, I miscounted. Thirteen is not "almost twenty." Flame away.
 
678sarge33rd
      ID: 670916
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 15:22
[flame on}stoopit lawyers. only time they can add, is when they're working on your bill. [flame off]

:)
 
679Mark L
      ID: 23914710
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 15:29
Not add, multiply.
 
680Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 15:35
Compare the statements of Kennedy and Reid to Schumer's.

Kennedy managed to call me an extremist 5 times; I wonder how he feels about Schumer, who argued that this was clearly not the position for her. If I'm an extremist, then I can only imagine how radical he thinks Schumer is.
 
681Pancho Villa
      ID: 57582616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 16:18
"Strict constructionist" is a vague term with no agreed meaning.

Whatever it means,

Pat Robertson is praying that the next Supreme Court justice is one.

* Pray that the person God desires would be appointed to the Supreme Court.
* Pray that the President would have courage and rely on God's wisdom in nominating new Supreme Court justices.
* Pray that the justices of the Supreme Court would rule according to the Constitution as written and not man's opinions.
* Pray that additional vacancies occur within the Supreme Court.
* Pray that those who oppose biblical truth would retire from the Supreme Court and be replaced by those who honor God's law.
* Pray that truth would reign supreme during the Senate confirmation hearings.
* Pray that any plan of the enemy for the Senate confirmation hearing would be thwarted. Take authority over the schemes of Satan concerning the Supreme Court.
* Pray for the physical protection of Supreme Court justices, the current nominee, the Senate Judiciary Committee members, and all those involved in the confirmation hearings.
* Pray the biblical prayer, "But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream" (Amos 5:24) in the United States of America.
* Pray that the Ten Commandments would be more than just an historical memorial for the justices of the Supreme Court, but that their truth would reign in their hearts.
* Pray that Roe v. Wade would be overturned.
* Pray that justices who believe in a loose interpretation of the United States Constitution be replaced by those who are strict constructionists.

So, according to Robertson, a strict constructionist would believe that the 10 Commandments are more than just a historical memorial, but that they are truth.
I take that to mean that strict constructionists do not believe in the part of the constitution that states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

In other words, the 1st amendment, or the most important amendment. Any promotion of the 10 commandments is an establishment of religion.
One can only conclude that a "strict constructionist," at least as defined by Robertson(and probably Dobson) will put their religious beliefs ahead of any constitutional considerations. That would seem to make them unsuitable for a Supreme Court tasked to uphold the constitution.
 
682Toral
      ID: 10858715
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 16:31
Pat did not actually say that strict constructionists believe in all the things above the bolded quote. He might beieve that. I doubt it, since Pat has supported every GOP SCOTUS nominee including people like Souter and O'Connor, not to mention Bork, who was not a religious believer of any kind.

But anyway, ask 50 conservatives to define "strict constructionist" and you'll get 50 different answers, or more likely 10 answers and a lot of hemming and hawing from 40. There is no agreed meaning, which is why it so easy for GOP candidates to promise to nominate strict constructionists.

Toral
 
683Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 17:30
PV -- We can't be certain if Pat is actually making any sense here. However, he could be referring to the recent move to approve of the 10 commandments only in cases where they are largely interpreted to be historical. This refuses to acknowledge their religious character, and he could be against this denial. (IIRC, see specifically Breyer's rationalization for keeping the stone monument donated in 1961).

I presume that he does not believe that the 14th amendment fully incorporates the first. And/or the 10 Commandments is not an establishment of religion so much as it is a set of rules referenced either now or at a point in history a set of religions and therefore conveys with it as much if not more significance to society than it does to any singular religion.

It is not clear to me why the first amendment on its own merits automatically incorporates an individual right to freedom from symbols used in religion, nor do I see a clear and convincing case that the 14th amendment should incorporate the first to bind it to make it so.

I won't defend all of Robertson's statements, but your criticism here, specifically, doesn't strike much resonance with me.
 
684Pancho Villa
      ID: 57582616
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 18:23
I won't defend all of Robertson's statements, but your criticism here, specifically, doesn't strike much resonance with me.
What criticism?
How can one not conclude that Robertson's definition of a strict constructionist in conjunction with the other qualifications he seeks isn't based on an established religious criteria?
Specifically, the framers of the Constitution went out of their way to prohibit the establishment of religion as part of our governmental structure. They didn't avoid or ignore the subject so that it could be addressed at a later date, like slavery.

As Toral pointed out, there's no consensus definition of strict constructionist. Is it someone who:

would rule according to the Constitution as written and not man's opinions.

Pretty clear to me that you and Pat are actually not in favor of the Constitution as written, but in your opinion of it, especially when you state:

It is not clear to me why the first amendment on its own merits automatically incorporates an individual right to freedom from symbols used in religion

We're not talking symbols. The 10 Commandments is a set of laws from the Bible, a religious text. When Robertson encourages people to

Pray that those who oppose biblical truth would retire from the Supreme Court and be replaced by those who honor God's law

isn't he endorsing the establishment of religion in SCOTUS? Isn't he endorsing

that the Ten Commandments would be more than just an historical memorial for the justices of the Supreme Court, but that their truth would reign in their hearts.

Does this mean that we can expect his strict constructionists to rule that adultery, cherishing, working on Sunday and having no God before me can one day be the law of the land, since he evidently believes these to be truths?





 
685Seattle Zen
      ID: 179472013
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 20:02
Here in Seattle, we don't like any of the supposed top nine candidates Bush is contemplating.

Vote on who you think should be nominated.
 
686Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 20:18
PV -- you are totally missing my point, hopefully not on purpose.

Read McCreary and Van Orden.

I think that Pat's comments are directed entirely at Breyer's opinion -- a liberal who voted in FAVOR of displaying the ten commandments -- in Van Orden. Breyer's rationalization was that the 10 Commandments in that context were predominantly secular in nature.

When Robertson says that the 10 commandments should be "more than just an historical memorial", he is taking a hyperbolic swipe at Breyer's flip-flopping opinion. Amazingly, you trash Robertson as some religious nutcase for saying something that you and I both agree is true (that the 10 Commandments are predominantly religious symbols).

Interestingly, in the particular instance and on that particular issue, he is very much in-line with Ginsburg and virtually the entire court ... except Breyer whose vote held sway in that single instance.

isn't he endorsing the establishment of religion in SCOTUS? I have no idea what this particular statement means. The SCOTUS is governed, as best I know, on a principle of respect for a benign deity, loosely speaking. There are Judeo-Christian phrases throughout the building, they open with a prayer, etc. I don't know that Robertson has asked for that to change, if this is what you are getting at.
 
687Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 20:42
Another perspective on Sykes ... seems to mirror yours, Mark L.
 
688Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Thu, Oct 27, 2005, 21:03
I bet RvW is too much of a priority for Bush to nominate her unless he can get near confirmation that she disagrees.
 
689Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 3601149
      Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 00:27
MM 687 - interesting. McBride is a former reporter for
the Milwaukee paper (and a good one - she covered
the courts for a while and interviewed me with what I
thought was better background knowledge than some
others that I've talked to). She is conservative and was
then, but AFAICT did not have a bias in her reporting.
From her days as a reporter she has good connections
(and she is married to the district attorney for the fast-
growing county immediately west of Milwaukee) and
she worked sources well - sometimes I could tell she
had called some knowledgeable people for
background on the subjects she was discussing with
me. So I give her Sykes tip some weight.

Left the paper a few years ago during one of their many
reorganizations - her blog, interestingly enough, is
often cited by Sykes's ex-husband Charlie on his talk
radio program and in his blog.
 
690Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 3601149
      Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 00:37
Here's Senator Feingold's introduction of [then-]Justice
Sykes to the Senate Judiciary Committee early last year
(cut and pasted from the Senate website):

Mr. Chairman, it is my privilege to welcome Justice
Diane Sykes to this hearing and to introduce her to the
Committee. Justice Sykes is a true product of
Wisconsin. She was born in Milwaukee and attended
Brown Deer High School. She left our state to go to
college at Northwestern University, but she returned to
work as a reporter for the Milwaukee Journal and then
to attend Marquette University Law School, where she
was a member of the law review. After law school, she
clerked for Judge Terry Evans, then a U.S. District
Judge for the Eastern District of Wisconsin. If Justice
Sykes is confirmed to the Seventh Circuit, Judge Evans
will be her colleague on that court.

After clerking, Justice Sykes practiced law for seven
years with the Milwaukee firm of Whyte & Hirschboeck.
In 1992, she was elected to a circuit court judgeship in
Milwaukee County. In September 1999, then Governor
Tommy Thompson named her to a vacancy on the
Wisconsin Supreme Court. She was reelected in the
year 2000, and she continues to serve on the highest
court in our state.

Mr. Chairman, I think it is important to note that Justice
Sykes' nomination is the result of a collaborative
bipartisan process of judicial selection in our state. The
Wisconsin Federal Nominating Commission was first
formed nearly a quarter-century ago by former Senators
William Proxmire and Gaylord Nelson. It has been used
continuously since then by Democratic and Republican
Senators under both Democratic and Republican
Presidents.

The Wisconsin Federal Nominating Commission is an
independent panel selected by Wisconsin elected
officials and the State Bar of Wisconsin. The
Commission charter provides that it will review
applications for federal District Court and Court of
Appeals vacancies in Wisconsin, as well as United
States Attorney vacancies. Senator Kohl and I have
worked very hard to maintain and strengthen the
Commission throughout our time in the Senate. The
composition of the Commission assures that selections
for these important positions will be made based on
merit, not politics. Over the past 25 years, the
Commission process has yielded very high-quality
nominees and has served to de-politicize the
nomination process in our state.

Despite some initial resistance, the Bush Administration
ultimately agreed to have candidates for this Seventh
Circuit vacancy go through the Commission process.
Under the joint leadership of Dean Joseph Kearny of
the Marquette University Law School and Professor
Frank Turkheimer of the University of Wisconsin Law
School, the Commission worked extremely hard under
a very tight deadline. It recommended four highly
qualified candidates, including Justice Sykes. Senator
Kohl and I, working with Rep. Sensenbrenner, the
senior Republican officeholder in the state, decided to
forward all four names to the White House, and the
President selected Justice Sykes from the four.

I have always maintained that with cooperation and
consultation between the President and home state
Senators, the judicial nomination process can be far
less contentious and, frankly, far less frustrating, than it
has been over the past several years. Recognizing that
ideological differences are inevitable in this process as
control in the Senate and in the White House change
hands, it would serve those who choose and confirm
federal judicial nominees well to follow the example of
the Wisconsin Federal Nominating Commission.

I met with Justice Sykes last summer as part of the
Commission process. I had a chance to question her
closely about her background, her qualifications, and
her judicial philosophy. There are a number of topics
on which we do not see eye to eye, but I found Justice
Sykes to be candid and forthcoming and I believe she
is well qualified to fill this seat on the Seventh Circuit. I
have great respect for Justice Sykes' commitment to
public service. Talented young lawyers have many
more remunerative options that they can pursue. I also
have great respect for the Commission process. I fully
support Justice Sykes' nomination.

Mr. Chairman, it is my hope that the work of the
Wisconsin Federal Nominating Commission, the
nomination of Justice Sykes, and her smooth
confirmation will send a signal to the White House, to
my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, and to the
country, that we can, in fact, work together in a
bipartisan way to fill judicial vacancies.

I want to again welcome Justice Sykes to the
Committee, and I look forward to her taking the federal
bench. Thank you Mr. Chairman.
 
691Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 09:09
Miers' supplemental responses to the Senate Judiciary Committee.

59 pages. Her supplement dwarfs her initial answers in size. Some of this is a total waste of paper, I suspect (like the listing of all her votes on the Dallas City Council).

However, one is indeed struck by the appearance of detailed due diligence. It really is bizarre ... so much care and effort put into the SECOND questionnaire, and a withdrawal before questions begin to arise. My head is dizzy with all the times her firm has been sued. Most of that is probably totally unrelated to her, specifically, but the GTech case is in there, among others. I guess we'll never know if there was real dirt in all of that, or not.

For those like Tree who want Barnes' accusations and Bush's time at TANG to resurface, it's got to be perceived as a seriously missed opportunity.
 
692Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 11:59
Hmmm. Why would I not blindly accept your *unsupported* opinions. Perhaps you have an extreme overconfidence in your reasoning skill.

There is a difference between a hunch thrown out as sheer speculation and an opinion intended to be supported. Regardless, I was wrong about enough GOP Senators opposing the President on Miers. I was hoping I would be, but I had seen enough instances where the President was able to get all of his soldiers in line to be worried that it would happen again. I, however, don't see this as a contradiction worth noting.

[and, for whatever it is worth, the best evidence still suggests that she'd be an "ultra-conservative" on some issues, specifically with respect to being deferential to the executive branch, with respect to executive power. Her 1993 speech can be interpreted as being a judicial activist in favor of "solutions" in the face of problems. In terms of consequences, that's perhaps in the mold of Thomas but not of Scalia, but it's not in the mold of either in terms of process, something that your "well-reasoned" simplistic "there's an ultraconservative Scalia/Thomas mold" might have difficulty with.]

Nice one on the Scalia/Thomas jab. So you know exactly how I view them? Interesting. I also think it's interesting that you try to qualify how on top of the situation you are by taking a stab at how she might've ruled after saying just earlier that you don't really know how she'd rule given her level of idiocy, a sentiment I agree with and already put forth in this very thread.

Bush underestimated how much support he has and how important it is to his base. So you are saying that Bush nominated an "evangelical crony who has stated unequivocally that she would work for a constitutional amendment to ban virtually all abortion" in order to win Democratic support because he only *speculated* that his base might support a conservative candidate and he couldn't take that chance. Oy.

That's not what I said. What I said was that Bush now knows that he has the party's full support to nominate a true conservative, which was to imply that having seen the outcry over the Miers nomination, I think Bush will now offer a more conservative nominee as he has since seen the overwhelming desire of his party to nominate a genuine conservative. He was so worried about a big, drawn out fight with the Democrats that he didn't realize that he'd have to deal with a big, drawn out fight with members of his own party if he didn't nominate someone conservative enough for their tastes. I would (and many others have) argue that Bush picked Miers partially because he thought she'd get through without much of a fight.

I question your position on Miers' abortion stance. For every conservative out there like you who insists Miers is anti-abortion AND would use her personal beliefs to steer her vote in SCOTUS rulings, there is another conservative out there ripping Miers for not having a substantial enough anti-abortion track record. I'm not going to beat a dead horse about the issue, but there is sufficient disagreement there to justify my position that Miers is not hardline anti-abortion.

And that's really my beef with your claims in this thread, Madman. It's not whether I think you are right or wrong. You often give some insightful commentary, even when I don't agree with it. It's your insistence that you are right, and that opinions to the contrary must be wrong. You accept certain theories and steadfastly maintain them while dismissing counter-theories out of hand. There's too much uncertainty and contradicting ideas here to claim certain rightness.

Contrast that well-reasoned position to the most obvious alternative ... that Bush wanted to nominate a woman, and the entire Bush family is loyal and tends to support and encourage cronyism; Miers is vehemently pro-life in her personal life and mouths a bunch of mish-mash platitudes that ring true to a relatively ignorant President.

I agree with most of this: Bush wanted to nominate a woman, he wanted a conservative and he wanted someone confirmable without much of a fight. He was wrong on some of the counts with regards to Miers, but I believe that was his thought process. The cronyism charge comes into play after the initial criteria have been met. There were many people that fit his initial criteria, but I believe he chose Miers because the Bushes love them some cronyism.
 
693Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 13:21
Razor, you claim that I steadfastly hold onto theories in the face of countertheories, an accusation that arises because Toral presented good evidence that convinced me to abandon one of my prior theories. Oops. You call your erroneous predictions a "hunch" early in the post, but then they rise to the level of "counter-theory" that I should presumably acquiesce to at face value because ... you have some unnamed pundits on your side?

I allude to her 1989 questionnaire responses to cast doubt on why Bush wouldn't think Miers would appear attractive to Democrats, and you take that opportunity to mischaracterize my position on Miers and abortion.

The reason I made the Scalia/Thomas swipe is that TWICE in this thread you have blurred their positions. You do that for a third time implicitly later in your previous post when you say that Bush now has a mandate to nominate a 'true conservative'. As if chicken-bleep Bush caved in pre-emptorily before. Democrats make him quake in his boots, that's one lesson we can take to heart.

So I ask you, is a "true" conservative someone like McConnell, who attacked the SCOTUS opinion in Bush v. Gore? Is a "true" conservative someone like Mahoney who argued with the administration in the U of M law school case? Is a true conservative someone like Gonzalez who at least some thing wouldn't overturn Roe? Is a true conservative someone who attacked executive war powers in Hamdi like Scalia? Is a true conservative someone who attacked federal power to regulate marijuana in Raich like O'Connor (or Thomas)?

You tell me which direction he has now been pushed, and be more specific than "true" or "ultra" conservative in your description.

But without supporting evidence or recognition of nuance, don't expect me to jump onto your "counter-theory" position. You can accuse me of stubborness and elitism all you want. If you don't have reasons for your positions, I don't care what those positions are. It's that simple.
 
694Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 13:28
One last thought ... without combing through my posts, I don't recall ever saying that someone's opinions were "wrong". What I do recall saying was things like this, from post 470:

Is there any evidence whatsoever that Miers is a "moderate" by your definition? I presented an argument for why she is likely a Bush-type policy conservative, at the least -- namely she has devoted her life to this administration for many years. Further, we have substantive evidence that she may be one of the most avid pro-lifers to ever sit on the Court. All other views are buried beneath a veil of secrecy. If you have other arguments, please present. But mindlessly asserting that she is moderate over and over is a rather unpersuasive argument.

I tend to attack factual statements and reasoned linkages as being wrong or erroneous. Not opinions. If I have overstepped that rule, I do apologize.
 
695Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Fri, Oct 28, 2005, 15:11
MM,
Sorry I didn't respond to #686 last night. My computer died, had to buy a new one this morning.

The entire reason I brought Robertson into the mix was in reference to the question regarding the difference between "originalist" and "strict constructionist."
Robertson's wish list for a Supreme Court justice includes that he/she be a strict constructionist. His wish list also includes they honor God's law, accept the 10 commandments as truth, as well as references to biblical truth and Satan.
Now, Robertson is an evangelical Christian leader, so it's no suprise that he would endorse these religious beliefs for nominees. The question is,
"What is a strict constructionist, and why does Robertson think the nominee should be one?"

He implies that a strict constructionist is one who strictly interprets the Constitution, without letting their personal beliefs, opinions sway their decisions. IMO, Breyer is completely correct in his decision that the 10 commandments can be displayed because of their historical context. Any strict interpretation of the Constitution that would allow that the 10 commandments is a truth is no interpretation at all, but the complete opposite of what is stated in black and white in the 1st Amendment.

You can't reconcile "Thou shall have no other Gods before me" and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" which would include not only Congress but all states in the 14th Amendment.

So I didn't miss your point, I just think it's irrelevant in dicussing Robertson's perception of what constitutes a "strict constructionist."
I find it completely disingenous to pretend as if a literal interpretation of the Constitution is a litmus test for a nominee, except for the important part of the 1st amendment which he chooses to ignore.
 
696Razor
      ID: 36241218
      Mon, Oct 31, 2005, 09:01
Razor, you claim that I steadfastly hold onto theories in the face of countertheories, an accusation that arises because Toral presented good evidence that convinced me to abandon one of my prior theories. Oops. You call your erroneous predictions a "hunch" early in the post, but then they rise to the level of "counter-theory" that I should presumably acquiesce to at face value because ... you have some unnamed pundits on your side?

I never asked anyone to entertain the idea that the Senate might not confirm Miers, which is the hunch in question. The theory-countertheory is reference to Miers' conservativeness. You claimed she must be very conservative given her Evangelical faith, a theory countered by many pundits named in this thread.

The reason I made the Scalia/Thomas swipe is that TWICE in this thread you have blurred their positions. You do that for a third time implicitly later in your previous post when you say that Bush now has a mandate to nominate a 'true conservative'. As if chicken-bleep Bush caved in pre-emptorily before. Democrats make him quake in his boots, that's one lesson we can take to heart.

I never blurred the distinction between Scalia and Thomas, but you apparently think I did by simply mentioning their names together (which has happened way more often than not in this thread). To clear it up, when I say someone in the "Scalia/Thomas mold," I mean a strict constructionist or an originalist or whatever you want to call it who will tend to vote with Scalia and Thomas who often vote together. And yes, I know Scalia and Thomas do not always vote together. As if all that needed saying...

So I ask you, is a "true" conservative someone like McConnell, who attacked the SCOTUS opinion in Bush v. Gore? Is a "true" conservative someone like Mahoney who argued with the administration in the U of M law school case? Is a true conservative someone like Gonzalez who at least some thing wouldn't overturn Roe? Is a true conservative someone who attacked executive war powers in Hamdi like Scalia? Is a true conservative someone who attacked federal power to regulate marijuana in Raich like O'Connor (or Thomas)?

You tell me which direction he has now been pushed, and be more specific than "true" or "ultra" conservative in your description.


We can argue all you want, but one or two decisions does not a judicial philosophy make. I think it's at least fairly clear what gives a judge a reputation of being conservative or liberal, so I'm not going waste your time or my time by participating in this pointless exercise.
 
697Madman
      ID: 114321413
      Mon, Oct 31, 2005, 09:34
PV -- if you want me to say that Robertson's interpretation of a "Strict Constructionist" has elements of "Judicial activism" in it, I'll go ahead and agree. Neither term is well defined. But Robertson would, for example, have probably liked the court to hear the Schiavo case, a position that is inconsistent with most "conservative" legal theories like originalism, textualism, etc.

As Toral noted, the words "Strict Constructionist" are political words, and Robertson is wanting a judge who will rule ideologically in his favor on outcomes. As an aside, that was yet another reason I thought Miers would turn out to be "conservative" in a consequentialist sense ... her reference to strict interpretation of the Constitution in her nomination speech was striking. I thought it was meant specifically to signal to conservatives that she would vote with them.

Obviously, I now think she is just mostly confused about the term.

........

Razor -- I think it's at least fairly clear what gives a judge a reputation of being conservative or liberal I think that comment about says it all. I'm not sure what you are getting at, but I don't follow unless you are talking about opposing the *outcomes* of Roe and Lawrence. If so, that's a mindnumbingly simplistic view of the world, but it is probably the paradigm that the MSM uses to frame the battle.
 
698Seattle Zen
      ID: 179472013
      Wed, Nov 09, 2005, 23:49
Re 605

Payment sent.
 
699Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Nov 10, 2005, 08:36
SZ -- ;) Thanks.

FWIW, I was a bit surprised at how quickly it all happened. There's still a story in there somewhere, although I'm not sure anyone is willing to tell it yet.

At any rate, you did the right thing to make me put up or shut up.
 
704Seattle Zen
      ID: 91172012
      Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 13:16
This thread brought back memories, and scared the crap out of me. All of us, and legal commentators as well, obviously had no idea how horrible Alberto Gonzalez really is. Can you imagine how devastating it would be having him on the "ultimate bench" then learning of all the horrible things he has done the past seven years?
 
705Baldwin
      ID: 1211491020
      Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:53
I don't know what terrible things he's done in Washington but I know what unforgivable failure he presided over in Texas.