Forum: pol
Page 2023
Subject: Voter Fraud Watch


  Posted by: Baldwin - [30934119] Mon, Oct 11, 2004, 11:34

One thousand phony voter registrations per county and pretty soon you are talking about real voting fraud.
"We've seen voter fraud before, but never on this level," Coulson said Thursday. "I grew up in Chicago and this looks like the politics of Mayor Daley in the '50s and '60s."

Lake election and law enforcement officials said their investigation is centered on absentee registration attempts by the nonpartisan NAACP's National Voter Fund and an anti-Bush, nonprofit group called Americans Coming Together, or ACT Ohio.

Williams said the suspect voter registration applications include some with nonexistent addresses while others from the same street all have the street identically misspelled.

Williams said that usually people applying to vote fill out their own cards before signing them, drawing attention to the odd fact that the street name is not spelled correctly.

Still other voter registration cards bear strikingly similar handwriting, suggesting one person submitted a group of fraudulent voter registration cards.

"We are not certified handwriting experts, but we believe that these were common looking signatures," Williams said.

In one other instance, an elderly nursing home resident who usually signs with an "X" appeared to have a firm, cursive signature when she registered.
Every fraudulent vote is serious of course, just being sardonic.
 
1Baldwin
      ID: 42950119
      Mon, Oct 11, 2004, 11:50
I have this certainty in my gut that Soros' evil minions can call up a thousand recently dead/senile/vacationing abroad residents in each county on their Palm Pilots and Treos without much difficulty.
 
2Baldwin
      ID: 399351711
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 15:50
Outstanding collection of voter fraud stories from around the country. Way more than I have time to read on a Football Sunday.
 
3sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 15:53
I see you attempt to conjure images of Soro's engaging in such a thing, when it is a Rep group under investigation for accepting and then destroying voter registrations from Democrat voters, in two different states.
 
4Baldwin
      ID: 399351711
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 16:10
Feel free to list every example of Republican voter fraud you think you can prove, Sarge. I purposely didn't give this thread a partisan title.
 
5sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 21:24
IIRC, it is in the states of Utah and Wash that a group has been wporking to register voters. (This group has had its higher hq's traced to decidedly Republican backers) This group (sorry, cant recall specifics atm), has had members come forward alledging that they were under instruction to forwar only Reo registrations while destroying Democrat registrations.

Surely Baldy, this is not something you are not already aware of.
 
6rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 21:33
Actually, sarge, one of those groups is based in Phoenix and was operating in Nevada and Arizona. They have admitted being hired by Republican backers to sign up voters. The allegation comes from ONE disgruntled, fired worker IIRC. I'll dig up a local article.

 
7rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 21:40
Article from AZCentral.com No voter sign-up abuses
Pima County conducts probe

The original article: Valley company at center of voter-registration probe

And the company has sued the accuser: Consulting firm sues accuser

The same consulting firm accused in Oregon: Oregon opens probe of voter fraud allegations
 
8sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 21:47
rfs, news reports I have seen/heard would indicate that at least one formner street level worker and one former manager are both making the same allegations.
 
9sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 21:52
fwiw rfs, the 3rd link you provide gives the names of two workers. One of whom claims to have recovered frm the trash, Democratic registrations after watching a supervisor dispose of them and another fellow who admits that he "may have" destroyed registrations filled out by Democrats.

I think your emphasis of the "ONE" former employee, is misplaced when your own sources indicate 2 by name.
 
10rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 21:58
Fair enough. FWIW, I think your phrase of "(This group has had its higher hq's traced to decidedly Republican backers)" implies some covert allegence. Sproul has never denied being hired by RNC -- in fact he is the former chair of The AZ Rep Party, so I don't think there is any "tracing" going on.

I'm not taking either side because there is more story to tell, but considering there is an active investigationunderway and a lawsuit files, I expect we'll hear more about it... I find it hard to belive Sproul would file a defamatin suit (just asking someone to look close!) if he was dirty. But... ya never know...
 
11Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 22:14
Here we go again Fl early vote and handling of absentee ballots
 
12sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 22:46
I stand by my statement rfs. A group, working as subcontractors under Sprouls firm (a firm owned by the former state head of the republican committe) under conctract to the Republican National Committee. This would clearly fit my statement of "....this group had its higher hq's traced back to decidedly republican backers."

Work the statement I make backwards. Is the RNC a decidedly Republican group? Yes. Under contract to them, is Sprouls group, with Sproul as the former head of the AZ Rep Committee. Is Sproul a decvidedly republican backer? Yes. Under subcontract to Sprouls group, is the organization conducting the registration drives. Is the higher hq's then for this group, decidedly repeublican? Yes. (Since the ultimate higher hq's IS the RNC.)
 
13sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 22:51
Voters Outreach of America, is the group I was originally referencing btw.

Nev Judge rules against reopening voter registrations

I think this is a HUGELY bad ruling. The judge states apparently, that every voters rights are important but apparently not sufficiently important so as to grant an extension of registration now that it is too late to otherwise register.
 
14rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 22:52
Yep. That's a heck of a "trace" You are right. I guess you are just stating the obvious.

Would you agree that Sprouls wasn't trying to hide his affiliation? That's why I don't think there is much to trace. By implying "trace" you are imlying some detective work was needed to add 2 + 2.

That's like like me telling you my first name is Tim and you trace my initial down to "T" So, I agree with you 100%.

So, care to speculate as to why Sprouls would invite furtehr scrutiny by filing a lawsuit?
 
15sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 23:17
First, I highly doubt that Voters Outreach told people straight up that they were serving as subcontractors to under the RNC. You and I know they were, but we only know that because of the news coverage which resulted from the allegations.

As to why Sproul would file a counter-suit. I have no clue. The article I linked to above, names a 3rd person who puts forth this same allegation against Voters Outreach. (Admittedly, this 3rd person is the girlfriend of one of the other 2 persons named, so she may not be totally unbiased, but that doesnt make the allegations false either.) Further, from the judges ruling in the article I link, it is apparent that at least 1 democratic voters registration was in fact destroyed. This to me, further reinforces the allegation. (I believe more voters will be identified, when they go to vote and then find that they are not registered and thus cannot vote.)

Ready to have this entire election called into question should GWB be declared the winner?
 
16rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Sun, Oct 17, 2004, 23:24
It will be, no matter what. Get ready for it. If Kerry wins, I'd say the same thing....

I actually don't doubt that some registrations were destroyed. Although there are no allegations (yet), I'll bet somewhere in the US, there are some Republican registrations detroyed. To think any organization is bullet proof to idiots with there own idealogy and agend is foolish. That's what I think happened here.

I do doubt that was Sprouls agenda. He admitted he targeted Republicans (however you do that), but he isn't such a fool to have such a policy unless he is eager to serve Federal time.

 
17sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 00:26
I too would have to think he would be too bright to have such a policy. That however, doesnt prevent one of his underlings from putting such an unwritten but verbalized instruction in place.
 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 01:14
Don't know if this goes here or not:

Jim Tobin resigns over phone jamming scandal.

Basically, this guy hired a company to jam the phone lines during a critical period in the 2002 elections.
 
19Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 11:40
This isn't really about voter fraud, but I was looking for a general thread about election problems, and couldn't find it. I could always move this post to such a thread if necessary. George Will has a good column about the implications for this election of the 2000 SCOTUS decision in Bush v. Gore. At the time (2000) I argued that the decision was wrongly decided -- incorrect. (Which doesn't mean that Gore would have won BTW -- by the great majority of post-hoc recounts, in which news media examined every ballot, he still would have lost Florida.)

I missed National Review's editorial comment from that time criticizing the decision. But it essentially makes the same point I made, tersely and more colourfully.

(I disagree with Will in that I don't believe Florida's Supreme Court would have continued making new rules until Gore won. I believe their decisions were essentially correct as applications of election law, although arguable on details, and in any case not politically motivated.)

Just posted this because of a great fear I have -- that a similar "equal protection" case would come up that would benefit Kerry, and that this time, the conservative bloc would return to the equal protection principles they hold 99% of the time and decide against Kerry.

That would destroy everything I believe in, both about conservative jurisprudence and the character of the present members of the Court, which is far far worse, 100x worse, than Kerry being elected.

Anyway, Will's column is a necessary read for anyone who wants to follow any possible legal disputes about this election.

Toral
 
20sarge33rd
      ID: 599381710
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 12:11
nice link Toral. Thanks for sharing.

Couple that with the almost certain (IMHO) claims of registration fraud resulting in denial of the voting process, and I think we are headed straight away back to the courtroom this election cycle.
 
21j o s h
      ID: 489281811
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 14:42
Problems Crop Up in Fla. Early Voting
 
22Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 14:51
Fl Supreme court makes a ruling that makes sense Provisional ballots must be cast in precinct voter is registered in This makes a whole lot more sense than Ohio courts to accept prosional ballots as long as they are cast in same county voter lives in. Looks like Fl's ruling lowers the possibility of fraud verses Ohio's ruling.
 
23Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 14:54
If you have drugs this guy will deliver voter registrations Crack given for voter registrations in Ohio
 
24azdbacker
      ID: 56849916
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 15:50
Good to see that the NAACP thinks the best way to improve life for African-Americans is by giving them crack cocaine to sign up voters.
 
25Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 15:53
Is that what you draw from that, azd?
 
26Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 16:57
Excellent post - 19 - Toral. It is great to see someone profess that Presidential election results last for a mere four years, rejecting your moral, ethical, and political beliefs for short term gain is eternal.

I'm not going to let this sneak by, however:

Which doesn't mean that Gore would have won BTW -- by the great majority of post-hoc recounts, in which news media examined every ballot, he still would have lost Florida.

Completely false. In the interest of "moving on" and overall revoltion fatigue, the Left didn't scream bloddy murder when the NY Times and WA Post exposed the truth: If every voted counted, Gore wins.

Media review of Florida ballots
 
27Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 17:06
Zen: I'll argue the results of the full Florida recount another time. Starting next week if you want.

You're in full scream mode when you say that Gore would have won (by a legal recount). As I said, the full media recount considered every possible ballot standard ("how many corners of a chad must be hanging to be counted") all across Florida. If the Fla S.C. had allowed the county and standards Gore wanted, he would have lost by more. Under most standards Gore would have lost. Don't let your leftness steer you away from truth.

(Ironically the media recounts showed that the two candidates' recount strategies were exactly wrong.)

Again, if you want to debate this issue...start it in a few days, and be prepared to follow it thru.

Toral

 
28azdbacker
      ID: 56849916
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 19:29
PD - I don't know the extent of the NAACP guy's involvement in this, but clearly someone felt that way or just doesn't give a damn. It just reconfirms my opinion that the NAACP is still for keeping power at the extent of its constituents. If the AARP had such a miserable record of helping its constituents over the last decade or so as the NAACP does, there would be a 'seasoned-citizen' revolt going on right now.
 
29Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Mon, Oct 18, 2004, 21:54
Unfortunately the NAACP has become a partisan organization whose activities often confirm the crudest anti-black stereotypes.

Blacks are among the most socially conservative folks in America; they definitely have the strongest interest of anyone (much more than rich white folks) in deterring and punishing crime.

For the moment their organizations are led by Liberal poverty and welfare pimps, who have a vested interest in keeping blacks down, so that they can be their leaders.

Eventually that will change, and the white Liberal elitist superstructure, folks like John Kerry, will disappear from political leadership and no one will miss them.

In God's time.

Toral



 
30Tree
      ID: 76471215
      Tue, Oct 19, 2004, 12:16
Eventually that will change, and the white Liberal elitist superstructure, folks like John Kerry, will disappear from political leadership and no one will miss them.

In God's time.


and that, in a nutshell, is half the problem. Leave religion out of politics, and think for yourself, instead of someone telling you how to think.
 
31Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 01:37
Blacks are among the most socially conservative folks in America

Hogwash. Did you garner this opinion from a survey of two black folk from a Nazarine church?

Why do you discount the black vote? Is it because 90% of them vote the same party? Do you think that is evidence that they must be sheep to the NAACP shepards? Why not respect their voting decisions much like you respect mine?

Every black voter weighs each issue, each candidate and votes intelligently, just like you do. The fact that only 10% of them vote Republican speaks much louder about the GOP than it does a black voter.
 
32Baldwin
      ID: 3913205
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 07:13
I am willing to bet the preservation of marriage issue accounts for several percentage points of black voters for Bush this year.
 
33Baldwin
      ID: 40930205
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 07:35
Bush campaign targets segment of black voters who strongly favor his position on marriage and school vouchers...sees strong gains among socially conservative religious blacks...
But Kerry had 49 percent support from black Christian conservatives, down from the 69 percent Gore enjoyed in 2000. Bush was at 36 percent among the group this year, more than tripling the 11 percent he got four years ago.

Republican officials say they are making an effort this year to reach out to the black community. Campaign aides have cited Bush's support of school vouchers, public money that can be used to help pay private school tuition, and support of a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage as issues that might win him more black votes.

About 48 percent of blacks surveyed supported vouchers, the same percentage as in the general population, according to the Joint Center poll. About 46 percent of blacks said there should be no recognition of a gay couple's relationship, compared with 37 percent for the population overall.

 
34Baldwin
      ID: 40930205
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 07:51
Harris Fisks Carter.
 
35Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 11:00
I was going to mention that blacks share an anti-gay bias with social conservatives.

Bush is only garnering 36% of black Christian conservatives, that's pathetic.

Now if you were to argue that Hispanics are among the most socially conservative folk in America...
 
36Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 19:12
Not that it is outright fraud, but this doesn't look good voter info cards returned
 
37Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 19:35
It's not clear why all returns would be considered fraud, particularly why its assumed to be fraud by those registering.
 
38Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 19:41
Er, that wasn't worded very well (wiggling daughter in my lap).

There are lots of reasons for returned cards, but I don't see any reasons listed ("the people couldn't be found" isn't really a reason). In fact, the Hamilton County Board of Elections has stated that not all returned cards are fraud.

Those that register people aren't helped by people who don't actually vote, so it's not clear why the Republicans of Ohio would be thinking this is some sort of statewide registration fraud. Where's the incentive?

Hamilton County, I should point out, is the most conservative county in Ohio. I don't know if it means anything, but it's worth noting.
 
39Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Wed, Oct 20, 2004, 19:47
One more thing: Since the RNC is behind the dreadful Sproul & Associates registration fraud across at least 4 states now, Gillespie has a lot a gall to come out on this issue.
 
40Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Thu, Oct 21, 2004, 12:33
Yeah, Mary Poppins is real, and she's living in Hamilton County, OH.
 
41Tree
      ID: 76471215
      Fri, Oct 22, 2004, 16:12
Republican Group Accused of Voter Fraud

while not surprising that they would pull this, this it is starting to become more and more serious.
 
42sarge33rd
      ID: 45982120
      Fri, Oct 22, 2004, 16:22
no longer mere whining from "one disgruntled" former employee. Spanning multiple states, multiple cities within those states, looks on the outside as if there may be more than a little credence to the allegations.
 
43Tree
      ID: 76471215
      Fri, Oct 22, 2004, 17:13
i'm sure there is a rationale way to spin...errr...explain this whole situation...
 
44sarge33rd
      ID: 45982120
      Fri, Oct 22, 2004, 17:36
but of course Tree. It's 132 disgruntled former employees, all with an axe to grind.
 
45Baldwin
      ID: 41944230
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 02:49
I expect this to be the dirtiest election of all time from all sides. And I expect the media to spin it one way. Republicans are going need to win by 20,000 votes per state to avoid having this be decided in the courts or congress.
 
46Wilmer McLean
      ID: 075249
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 03:50
The League of Women Voters of New York State in my area had a newpaper-like voting guide next to a convenient store check-out with information on candidates if they had submitted. More importantly, it included information on election rights.

I will take the time and type out "Your Election Day Rights" and the "Notice to Voters" so you know how New York voters can protect their rights to vote. I don't know what other states have legislated, but this is a starting point for discussion - on other protections in other states - and past, present and future complaints, too.

-----------------------------------
Your Election Day Rights

1) If you show up at your polling place, you must be allowed to vote there, whether or not your name is on the list of voters

2) Equal treatment regardless of race, religion, national origin, gender or disability.

3) Privacy - you can't be forced to show how you voted.

4) Assistance from poll workers if you request it.

5) If you hace a disability, access to a voting device you can use.


Notice To Voters

section 8-302.3a and 8-303 of New York State Election Law

If your poll record is missing, or if you were asked to present identification and did not do so, or if in a Primary election, your poll record does not show enrollment in the party in which you claim to be enrolled, you may seek to vote by one of the following methods.

Affidavit Ballot: If you are able to swear under oath that you live in the election district in which you are seeking to vote, and that you are presently registered to vote in this county, and in a Primary election, that you are enrolled in the appropriate party, the Election Inspectors are required to give you a paper ballot on which you may cast your vote.

Place the voted ballot in the envelope provided and complete your affidavit on the outside of the envelope, making sure to give your correct residence address. The envelope will be returned, unopened, to the Board of Elections. If the Board determines that you are an eligible voter in this election district, your ballot will be counted. You will be notified if your ballot is cast or not, and the reason for such decision.

Court Order: You may obtain a court order directing the Election Inspectors to allow you to vote on the voting machine. Your Board of Elections will tell you where and when a Justice of the Supreme Court or a County Court Judge can be located.
 
47Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 07:27
And I expect the media to spin it one way. Republicans are going need to win by 20,000 votes per state to avoid having this be decided in the courts or congress.

of course you do Baldwin, because you're biased.

the "spin" of the media is a myth and misconception that many on the right holds onto like a crutch to support their weakening grasp on the realities of the modern world.

while we've definitely seen some sketchy things from either side of the political spectrum this election season, so far, the trickery attempted by the right has outweighed that of the left.
 
48Baldwin
      ID: 41944230
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 09:03
Sure it has Tree. Lol! That's why the left has hired felons to comb the country for legitimate new voter registrion. No chance for fraud there, no sir, temptation better just look somewhere else, cause it won't get anywhere with that crew. Lol!

Looks like the Dems decided that they will steal the election early. Bringing in Chicago's mob election fixer after the fact didn't work good enuff last presidential election.
 
49Tree
      Donor
      ID: 599393013
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 10:35
That's why the left has hired felons to comb the country for legitimate new voter registrion.

i'm sorry - what does this have to with fraud?

if someone who has broken the law has been rehabilited, i'm not gonna pass judgement on them - then again, your whole reason to exist is to judge others, so now i see where you're coming from.
 
50Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 10:38
From TPM:

The state Republican party has recruited thousands of poll watchers, to be paid $100 each, to challenge as many newly registered voters as possible. Not surprisingly, they're concentrating the poll watchers in inner-city neighborhoods of Cleveland, Dayton and other cities.

To justify these tactics, the delightful James P. Trakas, party co-chair in Cuyahoga County, told the Times: "The organized left's efforts to, quote unquote, register voters - I call them ringers - have created these problems."


Translation: "We wouldn't have to intimidate anyone if they weren't registering people"
 
51Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 10:45
35,000 "newly registered voters" were sent mail by the Republicans and had the mail returned as undeliverable. The GOP would like to use their legal right to challenge some of the people voting multiple times in the names of non-existent people that the Democrats will be trotting to the polls in parts of Cleveland on Election Day.

Why would the possibility of a challenge intimidate a legitimate voter. That's not what the Democrats really fear.

Toral
 
52Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 11:02
There's no incentive to register non-voters, Toral.

"Legitimate challenges" don't come from partisan dayworkers getting in the face of new voters. There's little doubt that the Republicans' challenge is an effort to chill the vote of the newly-registered Democrats. Coming from a party who hired companies to only register Republicans and toss out any people who registered Democratic, this is no surprise.
 
53Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 11:29
There's little doubt that the Republicans' challenge is an effort to chill the vote of the newly-registered Democrats.

In your mind, perhaps. I would say there is a doubt factor near 100%.

There's no incentive to register non-voters, Toral.

There's a huge incentive to register ineligible people as voters, if you have reason to believe that they, or someone in their name, will be voting.

These accounts from the Ohio GOP indicate why it needs election watchers, what with counties where voter registration has exceeded the eligible voting-age population, and the NAACP and the AFL-CIO submitting fraudulent registrations.

Toral
 
54Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 11:42
Each election brings some fraud--what we're talking about is what is over-the-top. Even the Hamilton County Department of Elections (hardly a bastion of the Left) has said that returned cards are not an indication of fraud. Yet the Ohio GOP has you believing that every returned card is a fake Democrat.

I also wouldn't believe Ken Blackwell as far as I can throw him. He's Clarence Thomas without the robe to hide behind.

By all means investigate fraud. But hiring intimidators to challenge people who are new to the voting process says two things:

-their own party hack has no power to handle voting fraud;
-the need to challenge new voters is as a result of the success of the Dems to register new voters. It has little to do with fraud.

Republicans aren't stupid. They know that lower voter turnouts mean their party does poorer. Lots of tricks sill tro come.
 
55Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 11:55
They aren't "intimidators" they are poll watchers. Ther are a crucial part of the election process and will be active, for both parties, in every state. The only reason you're hearing abour Ohio now is that it it is one of a minority of states that require watchers to register themselves before election day.

-their own party hack has no power to handle voting fraud;

If he's Clarence Thomas without the robes, he must be a very good man. And the challenge process is one of the main mechanisms by which voter fraud is supposed to be handled. The entire state policing authority doesn't have the manposwer to investigate all the dubious registrations before election day. As for intimidation, "reasonable" justification for doubting the qualifications of a voter" must be shown for a challenge to lead to a poll official questioning the voter.

The only people with reason to be intimidated are those planning to cast illegal votes.

Toral
 
56Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 11:58
Yes, and it's only the guilty that need to worry about intrusive government policing....

I'm very suprised to hear a conservative actually say your last sentence.
 
57Myboyjack
      ID: 06141920
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 12:37
Looks like PD is right: early voters being intimidated in Ohio and Florida

Only problem is - it the Bush voters being "intimidated".

 
58Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 12:43
I don't see anything about Ohio in that piece MBJ, but I certainly get your point. In NJ (and NY), all politicing has to be 250 feet away from the polling place. Here in PA I was shocked, in the last election, to have to go through a gauntlet of supporters for a candidate who lost in the primary, urging his name written in. Apparently PA (and I suppose Florida) has no speech bubble around the polling places. Bad, bad idea not to have them.

pd
 
59Myboyjack
      ID: 06141920
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 12:46
I think FL has a bubble but the loophole is for the early voting places. The Ohio reference was another link that I've already lost. Woops.
 
60Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 14:09
Article detailing possible voter fraud in Ohio Returned voter confirmations

GOP Challenges Approximately 35,000 New Registrants (10/23/04) — State Republicans are challenging the veracity of approximately 35,000 new voter registrants where election cards were returned as undeliverable by the U.S. Postal Service. The challenges filed yesterday stretch across 65 of Ohio's 88 counties. Republicans blamed "so-called 'five-27' Democratic front groups" like America Coming Together for the challenged registrations. The designation refers to independent soft-money political groups registered under section five-27 of the IRS tax code. There were approximately 17,000 challenges in Cuyahoga County. State Republicans say that was the most in any single county. David Sullivan is the voter protection coordinator for the Ohio Democratic Party. He called today's challenges an "unprecedented effort to throw tens of thousands of voters off of Ohio's voting rolls."
 
61Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Sat, Oct 23, 2004, 20:40
federal judges ruled today that Ohio voters must show up in their own precinct if they desire to cast a provisional ballot Ruling . It will be interesting to see how Michigan's current case turns out this makes the second state (FL the other) to have the courts rule voters must show up in the home precinct if they desire to cast a provisional ballots.
 
62Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 059856912
      Sun, Oct 24, 2004, 17:38
The 6th circut court has now put a stay on MI's provisional rules. This is the same court that upheld OH's provisonal ballots must be cast in right precinct. It looks like MI is heading towards the same situation where provisionals must be cast in the right precinct, which I believe lessens, but does not eliminate fraud. MI provisional ballot ruling

This now leaves IA to settle it's provisional mess.
 
63Sludge
      ID: 48955820
      Sun, Oct 24, 2004, 21:38
Not exactly on topic, but...



Source: http://www.electoral-vote.com/images/ohio-butterfly.jpg

Via fark.com.
 
64Sludge
      ID: 48955820
      Sun, Oct 24, 2004, 21:38
BTW, I don't know if this is a manipulated image or the real deal.
 
65Sludge
      ID: 48955820
      Sun, Oct 24, 2004, 21:53
AP Story
 
66Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Tue, Apr 11, 2006, 13:14
Re post 18

Tobin convicted - Dems suggest the possibility of White House involvement.
 
67Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 11, 2006, 13:36
It's hard to deny that Tobin, who's #1 job that day was to jam the phone lines, was having some "normal" conversations when he called the White House's political affairs office 12 times on Election Day.

What else would they be talking about?
 
68Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Wed, May 17, 2006, 20:35
Tobin gets 10 months prison.

Bye bye!
 
69Wilmer McLean
      ID: 43825255
      Tue, Sep 26, 2006, 02:34
Thought I would post this here for your comments.

NY Times

September 26, 2006

Stricter Voting Laws Carve Latest Partisan Divide

By JOYCE PURNICK

MESA, Ariz. — Eva Charlene Steele, a recent transplant from Missouri, has no driver’s license or other form of state identification. So after voting all her adult life, Mrs. Steele will not be voting in November because of an Arizona law that requires proof of citizenship to register.

“I have mixed emotions,” said Mrs. Steele, 57, who uses a wheelchair and lives in a small room in an assisted-living center. “I could see where you would want to keep people who don’t belong in the country from voting, but there has to be an easier way.”

Russell K. Pearce, a leading proponent of the new requirement, offers no apologies.

“You have to show ID for almost everything — to rent a Blockbuster movie!” said Mr. Pearce, a Republican in the State House of Representatives. “Nobody has the right to cancel my vote by voting illegally. This is about political corruption.”

Mrs. Steele and Mr. Pearce are two players in a spreading partisan brawl over new and proposed voting requirements around the country. Republicans say the laws are needed to combat fraud, especially among illegal immigrants. Democrats say there is minimal fraud, if any, and accuse Republicans of suppressing the votes of those least likely to have the required documentation — minorities, the poor and the elderly — who tend to vote for Democrats.

In tight races, Democrats say, the loss of votes could matter in November.

In Maricopa County, Arizona’s largest in population, election officials said that 35 percent of new registrations were rejected for insufficient proof of citizenship last year and that 17 percent had been rejected so far this year. It is not known how many of the rejected registrants were not citizens or were unable to prove their citizenship because they had lost or could not locate birth certificates and other documents.

In Indiana, Daniel J. Parker, chairman of the state Democratic Party, said: “Close to 10 percent of registered voters here do not have driver’s licenses. Who does that impact most? Seniors and minorities.”

A law in Indiana requiring voters to have a state-issued photo ID is being challenged in the federal courts, as are the voting laws in Arizona and in many other states.

Republicans say the Democratic complaints are self-serving.

“Democrats believe they represent stupid people who are not smart enough to vote,” said Randy Pullen, a Republican national committeeman from Arizona who championed a statewide initiative on the new requirements. “I do not.”

The new measures include tighter controls over absentee balloting and stronger registration rules. The most contentious are laws in three states — Georgia, Indiana and Missouri — where people need government-issued picture ID’s to vote, and provisions here in Arizona that tightened voter ID requirements at the polls and imposed the proof-of-citizenship requirement for voter registration.

Several other states are considering similar measures, and the House of Representatives, voting largely along party lines, recently passed a national voter ID measure that is headed for the Senate.

The debate in Washington and the state capitals has been heated, with only one note of agreement: that voting, once burdened by poll taxes and other impediments, is as divisive an issue as ever.

“I have never seen such a sinister plot — I won’t say plot, I’ll say measure — as to target a group of people to try to make it difficult for them to vote,” said Roy E. Barnes, a Democrat and former governor of Georgia who is fighting the new identification law in his state.

Mr. Pearce, the Arizona Republican, said: “We know people are approached to register whether they are illegal or not. We know the left side’s agenda.”

Underlying the debate is the fundamental question of voter fraud and whether people who are not who they say they are — impostors — are voting. Some suggest that the problem is so widespread that the standard methods of proving identification, like a utility bill and a signature, are no longer adequate.

“I know a lot of allegations of voter fraud, especially by noncitizens, that may have been able to tip the balance in favor of one candidate,” said Representative Tom Tancredo, Republican of Colorado and an advocate of tough immigration laws.

The tighter voting rules appeal strongly to people worried about illegal immigration, Mr. Tancredo said.

There is no data, however, to show more than isolated instances of so-called impostor voting by illegal immigrants or others.

Experts in election law say most voter fraud involves absentee balloting, which is unaffected by the new photo identification laws. Few people, they say, will risk a felony charge to vote illegally at the polls, and few illegal immigrants want to interact with government officials — even people running a polling place.

Of Arizona’s 2.7 million registered voters, 238 were believed to have been noncitizens in the last 10 years; only 4 were believed to have voted; and none were impostors, plaintiffs stipulate in their lawsuit to overturn the law, statistics the state has not challenged. Nor is there evidence of impostor voting in Georgia, Indiana or Missouri.

Advocates for the new laws do not dispute the figures — just their relevance.

Thor Hearne, a lawyer for the American Center for Voting Rights, a conservative advocacy group, who was President Bush’s election law counsel in 2004, says there is little proof of impostor voting because few have looked for it.

Todd Rokita, the Indiana secretary of state, agrees. “Critics will say there is no wholesale fraud, and to that I say you don’t understand the nature of election fraud,” said Mr. Rokita, a Republican. “A lot of this goes unreported. Until you have a mechanism in place like photo ID’s, you don’t have anything to report.”

Arizona’s new rules were passed as part of Proposition 200, a referendum that denies certain state and local benefits to illegal immigrants. It got 56 percent of the vote two years ago, after Gov. Janet Napolitano, a Democrat, vetoed a Republican-backed measure passed by the Legislature.

Rooted in the state’s debates over illegal immigration, the measure is the broadest in the country, requiring a driver’s license, a state photo ID or two nonphotographic forms of identification at the polls. Lawyers for the Navajo Nation and other American Indian tribes say the provision particularly discriminates against Indians, many of whom are too poor to drive or are without electricity or telephone bills, alternative forms of identification.

Because the Arizona measures have been in place for less than two years, there is limited documentation of their impact. Lawyers fighting the rules say the measures have prevented thousands of people from registering to vote, particularly in Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix, a city with many Latino voters.

Supporters of the measures say elections have gone smoothly. Critics point to individual cases, like confusion at the polls in the primary elections earlier this month. They say that people without adequate documentation have been turned away or required to file “conditional provisional” ballots that are counted only if voters follow up — and that not all of them do.

Deborah Lopez, a Democratic political consultant in Phoenix, said that the once simple matter of registering voters at a rally or a fiesta now required labor-intensive door-to-door visits.

It was during a registration drive at her assisted-living center, Desert Palms, that Mrs. Steele learned she could not vote. Disabled, with a son, an Army staff sergeant, on active duty, she left Missouri recently to stay with her brother and subsequently moved into the center.

Lacking a driver’s license, she could get a new state identity card, but she said she had neither the $12 to pay for it nor, because she uses a wheelchair, the transportation to pick it up.

“It makes me a little angry because my son is fighting now in Iraq for others to have the right to vote, and I can’t,” said Mrs. Steele, who submitted an affidavit in the suit against the Arizona law.

Asked if she was a Republican or a Democrat, Mrs. Steele said she was neither: “I vote for the best person for the job.”

Or, she added, she used to.


 
70Perm Dude
      ID: 3682268
      Tue, Sep 26, 2006, 10:31
Pretty typical. Republicans are concerned about fraud, of which there is little evidence. Democrats are concerned about vote suppression, of which there is little evidence. Both portray this in religious war terms.

In my mind, a menu of IDs should be fine, with two non-photo IDs required (but only photo ID needed).

 
71Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 374522815
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 08:43
Brad Blog
In stunning revelations set to rock the vote from Tallahassee to Capitol Hill — and perhaps even a bit further up Pennsylvania Avenue — a Florida computer programmer has now made remarkable claims in a detailed sworn affidavit, signed this morning and obtained exclusively by The BRAD BLOG!

- Affidavit in .PDF format -

Sworn testimony:
 
72sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 09:26
If there is even a smattering of truth to this.....
 
73ukula
      ID: 17917137
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 09:42
The Bush administration would never lie to us, to even think that makes you a terrorist in my eyes.
 
74sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 09:55
and I should be concerend with how you view me.....why?
 
75Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 11:05
WOW! This could really blow up in GW's face. The ultimate smoking gun. Is there anyway to back date a resignation to Jan. 2001?
 
76Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 11:14
You posted it MITH: What degree of credibility to you put into that "testimony"?

If the facts he swore to are true, (and I assume you'd be quick to agree that his opinion about the Ohio election machines being rigged if the results don't match up perfectly with exit polls is totally meaningless) what, exactly, do you gleen from that.

Here's what I heard:

Facts: 1. Someone from a Florida State Rep's. office asked him to show them how an election machine could be rigged.

2. He informed on a "Chinese" guy for stealing miltary secrets and the Chinese guy didn't get punished as much as the witness thought prudent.

Opinion: If Ohio exit polls show a different result than the actual voting machines, then the machines were illegally rigged (Note: He gave this opinion after admitting he had absolutely no personal knowledge concerning the exit polls or machines)

Nice applause...er..cross-examination of this "witness" on thise points.
 
77Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 11:49
I can't speak on the credibiliy of his testimony. Its notable nevertheless.

Why is the applause worthy of mention for you but not the hissing?
 
78Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 11:52
The hissing and the applause were done by the same people - I'm not sure what your point is.

Doesn't the "testimony" have to be credible and relevant and important before it's "notable.
 
79Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 12:06
I can't confirm the truthfulness of the testimony but it seems plausible enough to me, despite the inclusion of his questionable opinions. If that means I find it credible then I'll change my answer.

I'm not sure how you can tell who is hissing.
 
80sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 12:10
I think its "notable", in that it warrants further investigation. This is afterall, testimony being given to a Congressional hearing, right?
 
81Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 12:17
I can't confirm the truthfulness of the testimony but it seems plausible enough to me,

OK, so what does it mean to you. I mean, surely it not news that these machines can be rigged? What did he add?

Really, for a group so skeptical of WND type "news", you guys think this is a "smoking gun"? Do you really think that this guy's story about the Florida state rep., even if 100% true, is important, much less a "smoking gun"? If I go to a EKU chemistry proffesor and ask him to give me a report on how to make meth with common household articles, does that mean I want to make meth? That I "likely" want to?

I'm not sure how you can tell who is hissing.

Based on who was the room and what they were hissing at.
 
82Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 12:30
This is afterall, testimony being given to a Congressional hearing, right?

Yes. So was the ridiculous opinion regarding the Ohio exit polls. I'm rather incredulous of witnesses who offer up such crap and even more so of Congressional commitees that actively illicit and applaud it.
 
83Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 12:32
you guys think this is a "smoking gun"?

No.

Do you really think that this guy's story about the Florida state rep., even if 100% true, is important...?

Important? Curtis claims that the Speaker of the FL House hired him or the company he worked for to write a program designed to change election results. How in the world is that not important?

At first I wasn't sure whether the hissing is in response to his Curtis' claims or that they are questionable. After listening again it does sound like people who are appaled at his claims - and not that they are outlandish.

You didn't ask your EKU chemistry proffesor for a report on how to make a meth lab, you hired him to build one for you.
 
84sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 13:20
I go back to what I said above...it warrants further investigation. IF its subsequently found to be true, then absoilutely its a smoking gun. Speaker of the House of FL, serving as Corporate Atty for a software co gaining government contracts and on whose behalf that same politician lobbies, is hired to provide a hidden software program which allows one person to secretly alter the outcome of tallied votes so as to yield the desired result, when the actual result runs contrary to that desired result. Again...IF true, it most certainly is damning.
 
85Perm Dude
      ID: 32936258
      Wed, Oct 25, 2006, 13:48
Missouri Supreme Court rejects voter ID law
 
86walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 12:43
November 6, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
Shouting Over the Din
By BOB HERBERT


We know that Al Gore got more votes than George W. Bush in the 2000 presidential election, and that of the people who went to the polls in Florida, more had intended to vote for Mr. Gore than for Mr. Bush. But Mr. Bush became president.

In 2004, Mr. Bush outpolled John Kerry by more than three million votes nationally. But widespread problems encountered by voters in Ohio, especially those who had intended to vote for Mr. Kerry, raised doubts about who had really won the crucially important Buckeye State. If Mr. Kerry had taken Ohio, he would have won the White House with a minority of the popular vote, as Mr. Bush had done four years earlier.

These are not scenes from a flourishing democracy. If you’re looking to put a positive spin on the current state of politics and government in the U.S., you’ve got your work cut out for you.

Voters will head to the polls tomorrow for the most important off-year election in recent memory. But instead of a concerted effort to make it easier for Americans to vote, the trend in recent years has been to make it harder, through legal means and otherwise.

Tens of thousands of voters in Georgia will very likely be confused tomorrow. A judge struck down a state law requiring voters to show a photo ID before casting their ballots. But up to 300,000 voters have received letters from the State Board of Elections telling them that a photo ID is required.

A veteran Democratic congresswoman from Indianapolis, Julia Carson, ran into trouble when she tried to vote on primary day by displaying her Congressional identification card. It had her picture on it, but she was told that was not enough. She needed something issued by the state or federal government that had an expiration date on it.

Eventually, as The Washington Post tells us, she was allowed to vote after a poll worker called a boss.

This was a congresswoman!

With each new election comes a new round of voter horror stories: Hanging chads. Eight- and nine-hour waits in the rain. Votes lost. Votes never counted. Electronic voting machines, vulnerable to all types of mischief, proliferating without the protective shadow of a paper trail. People in poor neighborhoods shunning the voting booth because they’ve been led to believe they’ll be arrested for some minor violation, such as an unpaid traffic ticket, if they dare to show up at the polls.

Enough. We need to recognize reality. The aging system of American-style democracy is beset in too many places by dry rot, cynicism, chicanery and fraud. It’s due for an overhaul.

The gerrymandering geniuses have raised their antidemocratic notion of perpetual incumbency to a fine art. As Adam Nagourney and Robin Toner informed us in yesterday’s Times, it’s very difficult to transform even intense voter dissatisfaction into real political change. “For all the deep unhappiness that polls show with Congress, Mr. Bush, his party and the Iraq war,” they wrote, “only about 10 percent of House races could be considered even remotely competitive.”

I’ve already said that I favor the creation of some sort of nonpartisan national forum — perhaps a series of high-profile, televised town hall meetings — to explore ways of improving our deeply troubled system of politics and government. If we could get beyond the hellacious din of obnoxious television ads and mindless shouting heads, we’d find that there are a lot of people with good ideas out there who need to be heard from.

One of the biggest problems at the moment is the extent to which ordinary Americans feel estranged from the ruling elite, from those powerful (and invariably wealthy) men and women in both parties who actually influence the course of politics and government.

The key task of any national effort to revitalize American-style democracy would be to bring the citizenry into closer touch with elected leaders in ways that hold the leaders to greater account and make them more responsive. The absolutely essential first step would be to ensure that all who are eligible to vote are actually allowed to vote, and that their ballots are properly counted.

I don’t think the politicians, even with all the recent coverage, realize the level of dissatisfaction and outright anger that has gripped much of the population. Iraq may be the flash point, but the dissatisfaction runs much deeper than that. People feel that the U.S. has sailed off in the wrong direction, and that — as voters — they haven’t the clout to set things right.
 
87Boxman
      ID: 47922511
      Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:34
In response to the op-ed above. If people are too stupid to punch a hole in a piece of thin cardboard with a pointed object, then maybe they shouldn't have their votes counted. I really don't know how much more basic and simplistic voting can get than punching holes in cardboard. In my district we color in the ovals like the tests in public schools and they run it thru a machine. WTF is with the touch screen system that relies on memory cards to save the data? What happens if a memory card is faulty? Or some volunteer spills their coffee on it and it fries? Voting is getting to be like doing your taxes. Gotta be a damn CPA or certified in basic code to do it. Just punch holes in paper. It's fun and it's easy.

This whole electronic system stinks to high hell also. HBO has a documentary floating around out there about Diebold and electronic voting. They ought to round those crooks up and throw away the key. What bureacrat thought that up?

Yeah. The most important elections in the free world and we don't even have a paper trail in the event of a FUBAR. Brilliant. Stick to the old way of simple punch card balloting. Make it big print, I don't care, just keep it simple.

This reminds me of some of my clients. Everybody wants a techno-answer straight out of Star Trek to every problem so their performance evals and resumes look great. Sometimes problems, even big ones, are fixed with simple things. KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.
 
88walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:41
Hmmmm, Boxman, your last paragraph makes me curious about what you do, cos we may have overlap. I work in HR for a big bank doing organizational effectiveness/mgmt consulting (I'm an I/O psych). What is it you do, if you are okay with sharing?

thx, - walk
 
89Boxman
      ID: 47922511
      Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:55
I work in HR for a big bank doing organizational effectiveness/mgmt consulting (I'm an I/O psych). What is it you do, if you are okay with sharing?

I'm not in HR. I don't hire or fire anybody. Actually an indirect result of my work could result in the hiring or firing of people. That's part of my recommendations.

I'm a procedural consultant. I get involved when companies have a problem that needs to be solved and either their current thinking, political environment, or lack of managerial skill prevents them from solving it. They present me with a problem and I help them solve it. Could be anything from re-orging an assembly line to a factory layout to back office type of procedures.

Some of the cases that I've been involved in would make you laugh. A client had a cell designed literally backwards facing away from the fabrication department all to placate some manager that's been there for 20 years. The fab guy would bring the machined parts via forklift or by hand clear across pretty much the entire factory. Then final assembly would forklift the finished good nearly clear across again to get to finished goods.

Other things I've done is installed Kanban ordering/inventory systems and cycle counts, but it's not just related to operational activities. I've even done things for month end processes in accounting departments.

Sometimes I'm at a client for only a few hours, sometimes it's much longer. It all depends.
 
90walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 14:19
Thanks, understood. Trust me, we don't hire or fire folks in HR either...we create the processes for managers to do, and finalize decisions, but these things are in the hands of the line. So, we are both consultants, but I am on the inside, and our overlap is on the "mgmt skills" side.

Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled program.

- walk
 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 141053613
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 00:45
I've been following this on Josh Marshall's site. Those are illegal on many levels, but they are being defended as a general practice by Republicans saying that "everyone does it." However, the "everyone does it" is attached to robocalls in general, not these "false flag" robocalls that are only being done on behalf of Republican candidates.

Democrats are not doing these types of calls, in which information about a Democratic candidate is presented, then a pause (to allow the person to hand up), then the number is called back many times until the person hears the negative phone ad through completely.

If a person only hears the beginning, they are led to believe that the Democrat is the one calling them again and again and again.
 
93KM
      ID: 319311512
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 00:50
RNCC robocalling attempts to deceive and annoy the public into voting against Democrats.

This makes me sick. Maybe if we criminalized, instead of fining these actions, the same old tactics to literally subvert Democracy would stop.
 
94KM
      ID: 319311512
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 00:52
Oops, reposted a better story. Sorry about stranding you like a crazy guy on the street who is talking to himself.
 
95Perm Dude
      ID: 141053613
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 00:54
Wouldn't be the first time.

Reminds me of a comedian at our college, who talked about those crazy guys on the street. His theory was that they were actually all telepathically links. Like you'd hear one guy in an alley by himself saying "You know, back when I was in the war..." and then 5 blocks over another guy by himself would shout out "You were never in the war!"
 
96KM
      ID: 319311512
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 01:00
I love the computer glitch explanation for the repetitive calls. I'm no Rove, but it seems to me that if the DNC just ran some general ads exposing things like this during elections, the common voter would be very irritated at Republicans. Any Republican can say "I'm not Bush, I'm not Foley, I'm not DeLay, I'm not Ney", but they all fall under the blanket of the "Republican" party.
 
97walk
      ID: 259313119
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 07:47
I think the rule is that these ads have to start with an explicit indication of who the ad is from (e.g. "Sponsored by the RNC"), and these roboads do not have that. Therefore, they are not proper...but they've already been conductedm, in the thousands.

Why is there no higher standard for winning in our electoral process/campaigning? This "win at all costs" mentality (robocops, attack ads) seems so counter to what it's all about. Awful, just awful state of government we have right now...

- walk
 
98Boxman
      ID: 49101015
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 08:11
The Duckworth camp is complaining about this. I haven't been victimized by this yet and I've received recorded calls from both candidates.

A lady at work told me about an interesting voting system yesterday. She is voting for the opponent of the candidate who calls and wakes up her 2 year old son during nap time this afternoon.
 
99walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 10:16
Election Glitch Site
 
100Perm Dude
      ID: 121016711
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 12:19
She is voting for the opponent of the candidate who calls and wakes up her 2 year old son during nap time this afternoon.

That's why the Democrats are complaining. The calls are actually coming from Republicans, pretending to be annoying calls from the Democratic candidate. They are trying to annoy people into voting against the Democrats.
 
101Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 12:34
Vote machines crash in Ohio

In one elementary school in the predominently black district of East Cleveland, Ohio, all 12 machines went down when voting opened at 6:30 am (1130 GMT), according to an AFP correspondent at the scene.

The machines were not started up until two hours later and poll officials refused to hand out paper ballots until a lawyer for the watchdog group Election Protection showed up.
 
102KM
      ID: 319311512
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 14:36
Of course. Let me know if you hear about a machine disturbance in Flagstaff or rural Tennessee. Won't hold my breath.
 
103boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 15:20
That's why the Democrats are complaining. The calls are actually coming from Republicans, pretending to be annoying calls from the Democratic candidate. They are trying to annoy people into voting against the Democrats. this so reminds me of highschool.
 
104Perm Dude
      ID: 121016711
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 15:35
Absolutely.

Let's all vote Josh Jennings for Congress!
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 121016711
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 15:50
Voting Fraud: At least it is putting the homeless to work
 
106Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 16:23
Voting for Menendez made easy.
 
107Perm Dude
      ID: 121016711
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 16:29
Heh. I saw a similar problem in Missouri.
 
108Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 16:33
No surprise Ehrlich and Steele would try to trick residents into believing they are Democrats in Prince Georges County.
 
109Pancho Villa
      ID: 366352418
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 18:04
Heard Rick Santorum this morning on the Laura Ingrahm Show. Heard Rick Santorum this afternoon on the Michael Medved Show.

When a caller mentioned that Santorum had been on 22 radio shows today, Medved ripped him a new A-Hole, demanding to know why the caller would disrespect one of the great Americans of all time.

Managed to keep my lunch down.
 
110Boxman
      ID: 49101015
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 18:14
one of the great Americans of all time

So according to Medved, we've got George Washington, Martin Luther King Jr., FDR, and Rick Santorum all feeding at the same trough.

What did you eat for lunch that you were able to keep it down?
 
111soxzeitgeist
      ID: 311042717
      Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 18:57
Fortunately, he knew someone who could get him a replacement voter ID card right away. Good thing he wasn't just an average Joe.
 
112Perm Dude
      ID: 57533157
      Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 08:55
Continuing a theme of trumped up voter fraud charges, the DoJ charges that North Carolina's voter rolls are rife with problems.

North Carolina rips them a new one.

 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 48532519
      Tue, Sep 25, 2007, 22:50
Voting fraud head snipe hunter up for re-appointment
 
114Wilmer McLean
      ID: 3912270
      Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 01:29
A Clearer Picture on Voter ID

NY Times
By JIMMY CARTER and JAMES A. BAKER III
Published: February 3, 2008

...

In 2005, we led a bipartisan Commission on Federal Election Reform and concluded that both parties’ concerns were legitimate — a free and fair election requires both ballot security and full access to voting. We offered a proposal to bridge the partisan divide by suggesting a uniform voter photo ID, based on the federal Real ID Act of 2005, to be phased in over five years. To help with the transition, states would provide free voter photo ID cards for eligible citizens; mobile units would be sent out to provide the IDs and register voters. (Of the 21 members of the commission, only three dissented on the requirement for an ID.)

...


-------------------------------------------------

What happened in the primary states with new voter id laws?
 
115DWetzel at work
      ID: 278201415
      Sat, Aug 23, 2008, 15:32
Voting Machines
 
116Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 16:57
New court filing reveals how the 2004 Ohio presidential election was hacked
 
117biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 17:16
Do you know enough to know what any of that means?

All I see is a crazy line drawn on a schematic.
 
118Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 17:31
No clue. I can ask a programmer at work. I remember a programmer dieing in a suspicious airplane accident, though.
 
119Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 16:11
Forensic Analysis Finds Venango County, PA, E-Voting System 'Remotely Accessed' on 'Multiple Occasions' by Unknown Computer" by bradblog.com

Excerpts:

It started with an election in 2008 when the machines were basically showing a large number of undervotes," he explained. "And then there were candidates for positions in the county and they had zero votes, but there was like 250 or 260 undervotes."

"Wait a minute, there were people who had zero votes on the ballot? Is that normal?" we interrupted to ask.

"No. No, it is not normal," he responded directly, describing the anomaly as "a red flag." When pressed to explain why he believed the the County Commissioners and their legal representatives had been working so hard for months to keep the audit from happening, Adams told us bluntly: "They know there's something wrong."
.....................
Further findings from Eckhardt's report note that it "appears to be the case" that "extra software [was] installed on the [tabulator] machine" and, citing partner Kesden's findings, indications are that "USB 'flash drives' were mounted by the system on multiple occasions."

"Based on our understanding," Eckhardt observes, "many steps of the operation of iVotronic voting terminals are infeasible to audit by a third party after the fact. Some can be investigated by individuals with access to the proprietary program source code ... In the past, such investigations have required a large staff and multiple months, suggesting they are frequently not practical to carry out between an election with surprising results and when that election must be certified."

Citing the out-of-order log findings described above, as "Just one example of the hidden problems...in thousands of pages of data," Breene says: "There is just too much unpublished data, too complicated to study correctly without months and teams of Forensics Specialists studying different areas, and far too much that the Companies do not allow anyone to study or test in any brand of electronic voting machines, not just those in our county."

The complaints by both Eckhardt and Breene, about the difficulty, if not impossibility, of forensically auditing electronic elections, are ones that we've heard many times over the years. The complaint usually comes from candidates attempting to challenge the results of their election. In most cases, they find they have neither the time to meet strict post-election deadlines for election contests, nor the financial and scientific resources to correctly audit such an election. Almost always they are stymied by the private voting machine companies who fight to keep them from access to the information they would need for an appropriate analysis.

We saw such a case recently in the 2010 Democratic primary for U.S. Senate in South Carolina, where the unknown Alvin Greene was inexplicably named the "winner" by the same 100% unverifiable ES&S iVotronic touch-screen systems used in Venango County. In that case, former circuit court judge and state legislator Vic Rawl mounted a challenge to inexplicable election results, but his team of forensic analysts were not allowed access to the voting systems, memory cards, tabulator, or other "proprietary" property of ES&S which declared Greene, who'd done no campaigning at all in the entire state, to be the 2010 Democratic nominee for the U.S. Senate.

In Venango, Breene cut to the chase in an exasperated email: "System Log File Reports from the Forensic Investigation interim report demonstrates why the voting machines just cannot be trusted, compared to paper ballots."
 
120DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 10:47
This seems like a useful spot for it:

Indiana election chief found guilty of voter fraud

"Indiana's top elections official could lose his job and his freedom after jurors convicted him of multiple voter fraud-related charges on Saturday, leaving in flux the fate of one of the state's most powerful positions.

Republican Secretary of State Charlie White has held on to his office for more than a year despite being accused of lying about his address on voter registration forms."


I look forward to finding out how this one is all ACORN's fault, by the way.
 
121TD
      ID: 539351921
      Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 20:53
Pa. Senate passes voter ID bill

I am a Pennsylvania republican, but I am against this bill. I am in favor of a phased in voter photo id bill because it would stop voter fraud, but this bill discriminates against those who currently don't have photo ids. Many legal voters would not be able to obtain ids in six days and their votes would not count.

"If voters show up without a photo ID, they would be allowed to cast a provisional ballot, and then would have six days to present election officials with an acceptable ID."
 
122Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 22:05
Our country League of Women Voters have a "meet and greet" with our representatives each year, and this last year the GOP reps were all about this bill. They were 100% convinced that all the urban legends about ACORN resulted in thousands of fraudulent votes cast every year and the only way to "fix the system" is to make it harder to vote.

They bought the FOX spin hook, line, and sinker. And (as shown in the news story above) could not come up with a single actual fraudulent vote.

Expanding government's power to solve problems that do not, in fact, exist is what the GOP used to (rightfully) complain that the Democrats were doing.
 
123Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jun 26, 2012, 13:34
OMG, they are right! Voter registration fraud on a massive and ongoing way.
 
124Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 03:34
Moving the current discussion starting at post #1776 in the Real Obama 4 thread here.

NPR:
When Pennsylvania officials begin their defense of the state's new voter identification law in court Wednesday, they will do so after agreeing to abandon a central argument for why such laws are needed.

In a Pennsylvania court filing, the state says it has never investigated claims of in-person voter fraud and so won't argue that such fraud has occurred in the past. As a result, the state says, it has no evidence that the crime has ever been committed.

The state also says it won't present "any evidence or argument" that in-person voter fraud is likely to occur on Election Day if the voter ID law isn't enacted.

More from the filing, which also was signed by the attorney for the plaintiffs, who are Pennsylvania residents suing to overturn the law:
"There have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states...Respondents will not offer any evidence in this action that in-person voter fraud has in fact occurred in Pennsylvania or elsewhere."


On Tuesday, hundreds of demonstrators protested the law outside the state capitol. They say the law violates the Voting Rights Act by discriminating against minorities.

The Justice Department is investigating whether minority voters are disproportionately represented among those who lack proper ID under the new law.

Pennsylvania Secretary of the Commonwealth Carol Aichele told reporters after the protest that roughly 85,000 voters will need a newly created voter ID card to be issued free. She said her office is cooperating with the Justice Department and defended the law.

"The law is valid and will sustain any kind of test," she said.
WTXF-FOX/AP:
The first three plaintiffs to testify Wednesday were all older women, minorities and Philadelphia residents who said they vote regularly. But they have no valid identification under the new law, and they apparently don't have the required documents - a birth certificate, a Social Security card and two proofs of residency - necessary to get the most common kind, a state photo ID.

Wilola Lee, 60, is unable to get a birth certificate from her birth state, Georgia, which apparently has no record. Viviette Applewhite, 93, who recalled marching with Martin Luther King Jr. in 1960, testified that she is unable to get a birth certificate and Social Security card with the same last name after being adopted early in life. And Ana Gonzalez, 63, who also was adopted early in life and came to the United States as a child, has no Social Security card and doesn't seem to have the identification necessary to get a birth certificate from Puerto Rico.

Three others testified later to similar barriers. A Philadelphia lawyer, Veronica Ludt, who runs a legal clinic aimed at helping people - usually poor blacks - obtain birth certificates, described a bureaucratic nightmare that can be costly and complicated by uninformed or unresponsive clerks at public agencies.


Pennsylvania's Department of State said Friday it plans to begin offering a special free photo ID card for voters who are unable to obtain a photo ID issued by the Department of Transportation.


Democrats' accusations that it is an election year scheme to steal the White House were fanned in June when the House Republican leader told a state party gathering that the law would allow Romney to win Pennsylvania in the fall.

The photo ID requirement is a significant departure from current law, which asks only people voting in a ward for the first time to show identification, including such non-photo forms as a utility bill or bank statement.
 
125Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 05:20
- sincerely, Boss Tweed
 
126biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 08:48
We should just let members of at least 2 Board of Directors for Fortune 500 companies to vote, and stop with the sham.

The founding fathers would agree, I'm sure.
 
127Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 10:09
No, no, let's just let George Soros and his Secretary of State Project elect us 49 more Franken-clowns.
 
128Tree
      ID: 40619279
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 10:25
hey, i've got an idea.

let's all not vote. and then complain about those who do vote.

if you don't vote, don't b!tch. you've got equal say, you just make a personal decision to not exercise that right.
 
129Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 11:32
Former FL GOP Party chair Jim Greer goes to town on the GOP in deposition

"I was upset because the political consultants and staff were talking about voter suppression and keeping blacks from voting. It had been one of those days,'' he said.
 
130Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 16:10
South Carolina AG and defender of his state's Voder ID law unwittingly exposes the disingenuousness of the measure

AG Alan Wilson in a speech to the Heritage Foundation:
The ability for someone to come in and, through fraud, dilute the voting pool is very present. I want to be able to give our government the ability to combat that, to give them the tools. It is very difficult to prove a negative. If Alan Wilson goes in and uses a fraudulent voter ID card under the name of John Smith and I vote under John Smith’s name and then leave the polling place, you cannot go back in time and prove the negative. It is impossible. It is very difficult to catch somebody in the act. But I hear countless stories of people who witnessed that.
Think Progress:
In Wilson’s imagined scenario, a voter uses a fake ID to cast an extra vote. But his own argument rests on the idea that the requirement to show ID at the polls is necessary to combat rampant voter fraud and identity theft. By this logic, voter ID laws would do nothing to prevent this threat.
Mith:
Duh.
 
131Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 17:04
Listen to yourself. "If it's impossible to make it perfectly fraud-free it would be preferable if we didn't try at all."

Ludicrous. Transparently self-serving power-lust.
 
132sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 17:41
(a) we dont have a problem now
(b) we have a solution to a non-existant problem, which btw, the solution doesnt solve anything
(c) we need to do it anyway

the GOP way
 
133Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 17:43
Weren't you going to treat the forum to undeniable evidence that voter fraud exists to a degree that warrants concern?

Been a month or two now, not enough time for you?
 
135Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 17:57
I recall now that when it became clear that presenting hard evidence of the voter fraud you claim is an obvious and rampant problem was incredibly difficult for you, I made it easier and asked you to simply pick the most egregious case or the easiest one to prove and simply point me toward the evidence.

Your reply was a case in Sandusky, OH, where you claimed where more votes were cast than registered voters.

But a simple google search showed that that was a case where a bunch of votes were counted twice, and the tally was corrected.

So that wasn't fraud, and wouldn't have been prevented by any of the voter-disenfranchisement efforts you support around the country.

So are you really still towing this line while aware that you have absolutely nothing?
 
136Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 18:03
And for the record, Listen to yourself. "If it's impossible to make it perfectly fraud-free it would be preferable if we didn't try at all."

That wasn't the point at all. The point is that if the guy says a photo ID is how to address the problem, then why is he going around defining the problem as something that specifically is not addressed in any way by his voter-disenfranchisment law?
 
137Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 18:44
Government trying to "solve" a problem it knows doesn't exist, while restricting rights in the process (which is actually part of the goal).

Why are the "conservatives" on government's side of this action?

Imagine the government trying to restrict guns--wonder what the GOP would do then?

Wait a minute...
 
138Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 19:02
That's exactly right. Ask any conservative how they feel about bringing in government to solve a problem that no one can definitively show exists.

 
139Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sat, Jul 28, 2012, 19:10

Where's the fraud?

In an interview with Chuck Todd on MSNBC’s The Daily Rundown this morning, Heritage Foundation senior fellow Brian Darling argued for the importance of Florida-style voter suppression laws in order to stop potential voter fraud. But when pressed by Todd to identify any actual examples of voter fraud, Darling appeared stumped:
DARLING: And there’ve been examples of voter fraud… in Florida. Look at ACORN.
TODD: Where is this voter fraud? I mean it is not this giant…
DARLING: We’ve had recent examples.
TODD: We’re talking about one or two people here, one or two people… and we’re not even a hundred percent sure.
DARLING: We just had a Michigan Congressman [Republican Thaddeus McCotter] resign… not run for re-election because he gathered signatures… his campaign gathered signatures that couldn’t be validated.
TODD: Yeah, but that’s a case of petition signatures being valid. I mean that’s a different law here.
DARLING: Yeah, but it’s very hard to catch voter fraud. Look at what James O’Keefe did. He walked into DC, he didn’t have any ID. One of his guy video…
TODD: Did he vote?
DARLING: No, he didn’t vote.
TODD: See?
DARLING: He didn’t vote. But he asked for a ballot and they were gonna give it to him.
TODD: Right, but you’re actually proving the point here. That the fraud didn’t take place because they prevented it.
DARLING: But it’s very hard to catch the fraud. That’s why you have to do it before Election Day. If you try to do it on Election Day, you’ll never catch any of the fraud.

 
140Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 05:01
Weren't you going to treat the forum to undeniable evidence that voter fraud exists to a degree that warrants concern?

Been a month or two now, not enough time for you?


I demonstrated that there were enuff clearly illegal felon votes in one county in Minnesota to throw the election to Franken-clown and thus give us Obamacare which couldn't have passed with one less senator.
 
141Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 11:59
Yeah after an investigation they found 28 votes that shouldn't have been cast. The Franken election was very close, but not that close. But as it relates to this discussion, finding a way to prevent convicted felons from voting is a difficult problem, and one that doesn't get solved by any voter ID law that I know of.

That said I've never understood why someone who has supposedly paid his/her debt to society and is now supposedly a free person will continue to be punished by the state for the rest of his life by having the most basic democratic freedom taken from him. Doesn't make any sense to me at all but too many Republicans are biblical when it comes to punishment for GOP polls to try to fix it and Dem polls won't risk being accused of trying to pad elective support by adding convicted felons to the voter rolls, so it'll probably never get fixed.

Confusing the matter is that in many places, I believe convicted felons are permitted to vote in local elections. I have no idea what MN's election laws are but if a state allows felons to cast votes for offices like school board, they'll be registered legally and I guess must simply be trusted to only make applicable selections.
 
142sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 12:30
In Washington, the right o vote is restored, after sentence is served. Couple caveats, but in general thats how it works there. (Cant recall who posted that link/info. Prolly Zen.) It would surprise me frankly, if that werent the case in many jurisdictions.
 
143Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 12:55
Reading more, I forgot what a highly contested election that was. Wiki:
In accordance with state law, the Minnesota State Canvassing Board ordered a hand recount in the Senate race, because the margin of victory was within one half of one percent.[40]


...ballots that were challenged by either campaign were sent to the state capital for consideration by the State Canvassing Board.


Of the 4130 precincts in Minnesota, one had to delay reporting its totals because election officials deduced that 133 ballots, all contained in a single envelope, had gone missing during the recount process.[42] After days of searching,[43] the State Canvassing Board decided to use that precinct's election day totals, which included the missing 133 votes.[44] The 133 missing ballots contributed a net 46 votes for Franken.


In total, Coleman had challenged 3,377 ballots and Franken had challenged 3,278. These ballots were set aside until the State Canvassing Board could meet on December 16, at which point the board began deciding on the challenged ballots. Ritchie's office, however, insisted that each campaign voluntarily withdraw some of their challenges, due to the strain a large pile of ballot challenges would place on the State Canvassing Board. On December 3, Al Franken's campaign withdrew 633 of their challenges, and said that they would withdraw more at a later date.[45] The next day, Coleman's campaign responded by withdrawing 650 challenges.[46] By the time all of the ballots that Franken's campaign challenged were examined, he had only 420 challenges left that had not been withdrawn,[47][48] while Coleman's campaign had roughly 1000.[49] The Secretary of State's website had noted that none of the withdrawn ballot challenges were reflected in the running tally of the recount.[50]

By December 19, the State Canvassing Board had largely concluded their review of ballot challenges from each campaign. Of the 1,325 ballots that were reviewed, 319 were awarded to Coleman, 758 were awarded to Franken, and 248 were labeled "other". According to the AP,[51] MPR[52] and the Star Tribune,[53] the resolution of these challenges marked the first time Franken had taken a lead in the recount. On December 30, the board finished reallocating the withdrawn challenges, completing this phase of the recount and leaving Franken with a 49 vote lead.[54][55][56][57]

One of the last—and largest—sources of uncertainty had been the absentee ballots which had been improperly rejected by election officials during the original count. Franken's campaign asked for these ballots to be tallied by each county and counted in the recount results, while Coleman's campaign said the canvassing board did not have the authority to deal with the ballots.


On December 12, the Board voted unanimously to recommend counties sort through their rejected absentee ballots, setting aside any that were incorrectly rejected, and to resubmit their vote totals with the incorrectly rejected ballots included.[59] The Coleman campaign filed suit with the state Supreme Court to temporarily halt such counting until "a standard procedure" could be determined,[60] but the State Supreme Court ruled on December 18 that the improperly rejected absentee ballots be included in the recount.[61] The Court also prescribed that a standard procedure be established by the Secretary of State's office in conjunction with the two campaigns.

As of December 30, county officials had found about 1,350 wrongly rejected ballots. The Franken campaign agreed to count all of those ballots, while the Coleman campaign agreed to a subset, and also wanted to reconsider more than 700 other absentee ballots. On December 30 and 31, representatives of both campaigns met with officials in each county and sorted through the absentee ballots. After some ballots were rejected by one campaign or the other, 953 ballots were sent to the secretary of state's office. The "fifth pile" of wrongly rejected absentee ballots were opened, checked for identifying marks, and counted (where found eligible) on January 3, 2009. Of the 933 ballots that were found to be eligible, 481 were for Franken, 305 were for Coleman, and 147 were for other candidates, or were overvotes or undervotes.

The state canvassing board certified the recounted vote totals on January 5 with Franken ahead by 225 votes.[8] Former Minnesota Governor Arne Carlson, a Republican who did not endorse a candidate in the 2008 Senate race, called for Coleman to concede.[63]


On January 12, 2009, Franken sent a letter to Ritchie and Pawlenty requesting an election certificate. Both declined, citing the unresolved election contest by Coleman.[68] Later that day, Franken filed suit in Federal court to force the state to issue a certificate, claiming that federal law relating to Senate elections superseded state law.[68] The next day his campaign asked the Minnesota Supreme Court to require Pawlenty and Ritchie to issue the certificate,[67] and the court held a hearing on the suit on February 5, 2009.[69]

Texas Senator John Cornyn said that GOP senators were prepared to filibuster the seating of the canvassing board's declared winner until a signed election certificate is available, as provided under Minnesota law.[66][70] On January 21, 2009, the day after the inauguration of Democratic President Barack Obama, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said that Senate Democrats are "going to try to seat Al Franken" at least provisionally until the challenge is resolved. Reid also said that there was "not a question in anyone's mind . . . that there's been any fraud or wrongdoing in this election." Senate Republican leaders countered this by insisting that Franken respect Minnesota laws and allow the completion of the legal review.[71][72]


Coleman filed a contest of the election results in the Ramsey County District Court on January 6, 2009.[73] In it, he alleged ballot counting irregularities which, if corrected, would result in his winning the election.[74] Among other issues, he alleged that there were double-counted duplicate ballots, 654 valid absentee votes rejected as invalid by county election officials,[75][76] and problems in dealing with the lost ballots in a Minneapolis precinct.[74][77]


On January 12, 2009, Franken filed a motion to dismiss Coleman's contest, claiming it was "an imprecise and scattershot pleading". He argued that even if the contest were to proceed, the three-judge panel should be limited to determining who would be awarded the already certified ballots and to a simple, mathematical recount to ensure the accuracy of the canvassing board's count, while no additional ballots should be reviewed.[73] On January 22, 2009, Franken's attorneys also argued that the case should not go to trial because the U.S. Senate itself, rather than the court system, has the power under the United States Constitution to judge the election of its own members.[80] Franken's motion to dismiss was denied by the panel on January 23.[81]

On January 19, 2009, Coleman attorney Fritz Knaak requested that the court open and review all rejected absentee ballots – totaling roughly 12,000 – because some of them, he contended, were improperly rejected.[82] Coleman's attorneys also proposed a multiple phase trial that would not start until February 2, in which the first phase would focus on rejected absentee ballots.[83] The panel denied these requests on January 23.[81][84]


On February 13 the court ruled that no evidence had been presented to establish widespread problems with the counting of absentee ballots and that rejected absentee ballots from 12 of 19 disputed categories would not be counted. According to Coleman's attorney, this left approximately 3,500 ballots still open for consideration.


On March 31, the court issued an order to count at most 400 rejected absentee ballots and denied any other relief.[90][91] On April 7, the court scrutinized these ballots and determined that 351 had been legally cast. Those votes were counted, with 111 going to Coleman, 198 to Franken, and 42 to Other, giving Franken a final margin of 312 votes.[92]


The court dismissed Coleman's suit "with prejudice" in its final ruling on April 13, finding that his claims had no merit and ordering the Coleman camp to pay the legal costs associated with Coleman's failure to disclose information about Pamela Howell, a precinct election judge and witness in the case,[1] which was later determined to amount to $94,783.[93] In the same ruling, the court also rejected Coleman's claim to exclude 132 missing ballots from the recount total and his request to adjust the results based on Coleman's allegations of double counted ballots.[10][94]


On April 20, Coleman filed a notice of appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court.[95] Franken's lawyers requested that the court follow an expedited schedule in hearing the case (with oral arguments scheduled mid May) to enable Minnesota to have two seated Senators.[96][97]


On June 30, 2009, the Minnesota Supreme Court unanimously rejected Coleman's challenge and stated that Franken was entitled to be certified as the winner. Coleman announced he would not appeal the result further, and congratulated Franken by phone, telling him that being senator was "the best job he would ever have."[109][110] Governor Pawlenty and Secretary of State Ritchie signed the election certificate on the same evening.[111]


In July 2010, Minnesota Majority, a conservative watchdog group, conducted a study in which they claimed that at least 341 convicted felons in the largely Democratic Minneapolis-St. Paul area voted illegally in the Senate race.[112] Subsequent investigations of Minnesota Majority's claims by election officials found that many of their allegations were incorrect. Some of the cases that were submitted involved mistaking a legal voter for a felon with the same name, others involved felons who had had their voting rights reinstated after serving their sentences, and others were felons who illegally registered to vote, but did not vote in 2008 election.[113][114] Columnist Nick Coleman of the Minneapolis-based Star Tribune called the idea that illegal voting by felons made a difference in the race "unbelievable" and the Minnesota Majority report "good fodder for a right-wing scare campaign."[115]

In October 2010, the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office concluded an extensive investigation into 110 allegations of fraud, which resulted in six charges being filed — two individuals were charged with the separate felonies of registering to vote while ineligible and voting while ineligible and four others were charged with voting while ineligible.[116]

More on the Minnesota Majority felon voting stuff here.

And here (archived article).
 
144Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 13:49
I've never understood why someone who has supposedly paid his/her debt to society and is now supposedly a free person will continue to be punished by the state for the rest of his life by having the most basic democratic freedom taken from him. Doesn't make any sense to me at all

They might be soft on crime. They might even vote for easy vote fraud.
 
145sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 14:01
And you could try actually, and honestly, answering a question, or you might not. *shrug*
 
146Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 14:16
Soft on crime.

This country has a long long way to go before anyone could seriously call it "soft" on crime.

What it might do is create a voting block with a genuine interest in addressing the mostly ignored violence and inhumane conditions you see in many prisons.
 
147Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 14:17
Yeah you're right. Even convicts wouldn't be so lacking in principles and fairness as to make vote fraud easy.
 
148sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 14:25
B...will you pay attention please. The current crop of voter ID (suppression) laws, will do NOTHING to preclude a felon from voting. THAT, would be remedied by better monitoring of voter roles, not voter ID at the precinct.

How does my for ex, presenting my DL (govt issued photo ID), tell you if I am or am not, a felon?
 
149Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 14:32
What fraud? The only fraud youve cited in this discussion, all 28 (or is it 6?) cases, would have been negated by giving back what is supposed to be an inalienable right.

The concern that such a relatively small block would somehow electorally facilitate voter fraud is an absurd justification for a lifetime sentence of sub-citizen status.
 
150Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 16:29
They are overwhelmingly democratic. We thus know they are almost automatically in favor of a low threshold for voter verification.
 
151Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 16:47
So what?

I'm sorry but it's not lost on me that you happily support every last measure to disenfranchis people who tend to vote against your home team even though none of them address the inconsequentially rare examples of voter fraud you claim we must prevent.
 
152Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 16:50
The very notion of your argument is so ridiculous on it's face that I can't believe you possess a sufficient lack of shame to even type it.

You're argument is that we can't let them vote because they'll support the wrong side's politics.

Are you even listening to yourself?
 
153sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 17:12
Who is this "they" Boldwin? The estimated 2% of registered voters, who would be disenfranchised and denied their constitutional right to vote? Which would make your entire argument amount to precisely:

"We must block these people from voting somehow, someway, because they will overwhelming vote against us, if we dont."
 
154Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 17:32
Exactly. Since they can't win by actually convincing people, the GOP has taken to trying to get otherwise legal voters to not vote.

The means are justified should they win.
 
155Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 19:56
First of all, I don't care how many voting felons George Soros' handpicked State's Attorney chose to prosecute. We know that enuff felons actually voted as opposed to 'were prosecuted for' in one county in Minnesota to deliver socialized medicine to this country via fraudulent means.

Which you Franken-clown lovers are quite prepared to justify any means to have attained.
 
156Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 19:57
And you liked it so much that you want to make sure you can do it over and over and over again.
 
157Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 20:16
Please do continue to post your thoughts. A record of the Fall of the GOP will be useful to future scholars.
 
158Mith
      ID: 40602716
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 20:24
We know that enuff felons...

Well, we know that Minnesota Majority's low-standards for felon hunting failed to find enough cases to change the election result after Coleman's legal kitchen sink approach to winning a contested election failed to convince numerous courts, officials and appointed bodies to find in favor of his desired outcome.

You're even worse than the liberals who couldn't get over the 2000 presidential election.
 
159DWetzel
      ID: 31111810
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 20:51
Is 155 even a coherent paragraph? It reads like a right winger's bad attempt at programming something to pass a Turing test.
 
160Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 21:55
Even convicts wouldn't be so lacking in principles and fairness as to make vote fraud easy.

convicts...such as James O'Keefe, one of your heroes?



 
161Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Jul 29, 2012, 21:58
speaking of Baldwin's favorite criminal, here is O'Keefe's personal "expose" on voter fraud.

and, like most on the right, he's revealed, again, as a fraud on this topic.

O'Keefe debunked, yet again.
 
162Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 01:10
We Fisk you, You Fisk us, no one bats a thousand...the thing is, you only get to discount the part you can prove is wrong. You don't get to throw out the baby with the bathwater. O'Keefe finds some great stuff, the vast majority of which, you can't deal with and which you don't dare let hit the court of public opinion.
 
163Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 01:20
For example when O'Keefe finds that the process is so full of holes that Washington DC polling places will let anyone who asks to, vote in the name of Eric Holder.



Now what bearing O'Keefe's tactics in New Orleans have to do with what you can witness in that DC polling place with your own eyes, escapes me.

I'll be right back with my ID's as fast as you can say furious. The republic is in good hands.

Nah, don't worry about it. You don't need no stinkin' ID.

Sheesh.
 
164sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 01:50
I wonder, how many people in the country are named Eric Holder? I met a fella with same name as mine. His fraternal grandparents, even had the same names as my fraternal grandparents.

Point is Boldwin, you keep claiming that more stringent voter ID laws, will prelude voter fraud. Yet in case after case after case, you have not shown a single example, where the ID cards would have prevented or detected, any fraud.

You have laid claims of felons voting. (Which claims have been examined by courts, by review committees, even by the losing candidates staff...and your claims are found to be hollow.) You claimed in one case, twice as many people voted as were registered. That has been shown to be a simple miscount, which was corrected.

That otherwise eligible voters would be prevented from voting, has been proven. It isnt even disputed on the national level by the GOP. PA admitted, that they have no proof that any voter fraud has ever been committed there, that IDs would prevent. SCs AG, admitted that IDs wont prevent fraud from occurring. So why B, why are you holding to a position, the GOP powers that be, have unwittingly admitted is untenable?
 
165Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 02:21
Yes, a person could obtain a ballot fraudulently. We already agreed to that in the Obama thread.

The questions were and remain: 1. how you could possibly exploit this to a degree sufficient to impact an election and 2. why would anyone risk thousands in fines, years in prison and a felony conviction when there are far more effective ways to accomplish the same thing, which are entirely legal and even honorable?

The question any reasonable person asks before calling for any increased authoritarianism is whether sacrificing certain freedoms is worth the expected outcome.

In this case the sacrifice is the disenfranchisement of exponentially more voters than cases of fraud occur. The outcome is the closing of a loophole that facilitates only a small fraction if any at all of the already very rare number of voter fraud cases that occur.

We live our lives exposed to all manner of things we wouldn't want people to do to us. My property is completely exposed. Anyone who wants could break into my house or poison my vegetable garden or paint a portrait of Alan Greenspan on the hood of my car.

But I'm fortunate enough to live in a place where those things rarely happen. So even though my neighbors and I remain "dangerously exposed" to this sort of thing, and even though there was a break-in a few blocks away a couple of years ago and a few TP incidents every year around Halloween, I don't feel any need to address the gaping loopholes surrounding my property with bars on my windows or an electric fence around my garden or even with cleaning out my garage enough to fit my car in it.

And I'm not interested in locking registered voters out of the polls to prevent a small percentage of the already almost non-existent voter fraud you want everyone to fear.
 
166Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 03:04
The questions were and remain: 1. how you could possibly exploit this to a degree sufficient to impact an election

Ask Bill Daley. It's his family's business.

Just look in the mirror and admit it. 'I MITH love to win elections with corrupt big city democrat machine fraudulent votes.'
 
167Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 03:07
And I challenge anyone to look in the mirror and tell that clerk allowing 'Eric Holder' to vote without an ID that it would be 'unbearably authoritarian' to ask for an ID.
 
168Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 03:11
Bill Daley voted with Eric Holder's ballot?

The math is simple. You want to sacrifice the suffrage of possibly a million or more registered voters to stop maybe a few hundred cases of fraud.

That's how you corrupt an election.
 
169Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 03:16
Correction:

You want to sacrifice the suffrage of possibly a million or more registered voters to stop a small percentage of the maybe few hundred cases of fraud.
 
170Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 03:40
It's not 'a small percentage'. It's as many as you need. Here you steal Florida, Here you steal Minnesota, Here you steal Ohio, Here you steal Texas and it's like we are living in an entirely different country.

And of course the center of the fraud is always in the big blue cities so of course you'll do everything in your power to perpetuate it.
 
171Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 09:29
170 does not make sense. Fraud that could be stopped with a photo ID is a small percentage of the already exceedingly rare fraud that occurs.

Have you yet shown even a single case of voter fraud that could have been stopped by a voter ID program?

Calling it a small percentage is being generous.
 
172Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 10:20
I can believe there would be liberals spewing the talking points...but among anyone studying politics as long as longtime poliboarders have, I just can't believe anyone in their heart of hearts really believes voter fraud is rare in big cities and that nothing should be done about it in a fair world.
 
173Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 10:39
And looking at that DC polling place I have to say, since there isn't even an attempt to verify anything, the votes might as well ALL be fraudulent. They don't one of them convince me that they are legitimate.

I don't remember any contested election where there weren't entire ballot boxes misplaced and as far as we know completely stuffed with fraudulent votes. Why make it easy for them to do this? Why not put the fear of prison-time into big city machines, that Peter Fitzgerald and the FBI and secret surveillance tapes and the full weight of the law will be exerted to make sure the election is fair...

...instead of, countless phony names presented by groups like ACORN, no effort to check ID's, no ID's to check, no chance they'll get caught, not even a slap on the wrist to worry about, nothing but a pat on the back to expect from performing fraud...

...unaccepatble. Simply an unacceptable situation.

In big Pennsylvania cities they'll come up with as many fraudulent votes as they'll need in a state they couldn't carry any other way this year. Ten percent fraud? Twenty percent? Whatever the precinct captain orders. It will be there in the swing state that is and isn't.
 
174Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 10:46
Show me the fraud (not the loopholes that you think is where the fraud might be occurring and then we can talk about countermeasures.

But it's incredibly foolish and hyper-reactionary to demand a particular solution to a problem that you can't quite identify.

There are numerous types of voter fraud. Neither you nor anyone else has provided a reason to believe that an ID requirement would prevent any of the more likely types of cases, however common they are.

I'm about as concerned that someone will vote with my ballot as I am that someone will come by my house late at night and rotate my tires.
 
175Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 11:35
No, I can describe the problem perfectly. Clowns like Al Franken are in positions they shouldn't be, passing laws I shouldn't live under, because people like you make fair elections impossible.
 
176Tree
      ID: 53555306
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 12:35
make a difference Baldwin. vote. People who complain constantly about the voting process, but won't vote themselves, are just ridiculous.
 
177sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 12:38
He cant vote. He doesnt have the required documents, and the hassle to obtain them is just too much.
 
178Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 14:54
Clowns like Al Franken

Show us where Franken took part in illegal activity that would have been prevented by an ID requirement and then we can talk about whether it's necessary to rob vulnerable American citizens of suffrage.

Because without that very simple and patently obvious logical connection this is nothing but an anti-Democratic (and anti-democratic) disfranchisement conspiracy.
 
179Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:02
make a difference Baldwin. vote.

Even if my religion allowed me, downstate Illinois learned last election cycle that we just can't outvote all the mickey-mice voting in the ghetto. And if we could, it's a combine running this state anyway. Of course I could help kick the kenyon marxist but hopefully America figured out that necessity already.
 
180sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:05
as truth and reality, continue to evade B's grasp.
 
181Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:21
...mickey-mice voting in the ghetto...

...the kenyon marxist...






Is it just me or is everyone else feeling the love too?
 
182Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:45
It is just astonishing that anyone can disagree with this piece.
“Unfortunately, the United States has a long history of voter fraud that has been documented by historians and journalists,” Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens wrote in 2008, upholding a strict Indiana voter-ID law designed to combat fraud. Justice Stevens, who personally encountered voter fraud while serving on various reform commissions in his native Chicago, spoke for a six-member majority. In a decision two years earlier clearing the way for an Arizona ID law, the Court had declared in a unanimous opinion that “confidence in the integrity of our electoral processes is essential to the functioning of our participatory democracy. Voter fraud drives honest citizens out of the democratic process and breeds distrust of our government. Voters who fear their legitimate votes will be outweighed by fraudulent ones will feel disenfranchised.”
---
Just this week in Fort Worth, Texas, a Democratic precinct chairwoman was indicted on charges of arranging an illegal vote. Hazel Woodard James has been charged with conspiring with her non-registered son to have him vote in place of his father. The only reason the crime was detected was that the father showed up later in the day to vote at the same precinct. Most fraudsters are smart enough to have their accomplices cast votes in the names of dead people on the voter rolls, who are highly unlikely to appear and complain that someone else voted in their place.
---
One of the highlights of the True the Vote conference was a speech by Artur Davis, who was a Democratic congressman from Alabama until last year. Davis has been an up-and-coming black Democratic leader, having been selected to second the nomination of Barack Obama at the 2008 Democratic convention in Denver.

But in 2009 he decided to vote against Obamacare...He told me that the voter suppression he most observed in his 68 percent African-American district was rampant fraud in counties with powerful political machines. To keep themselves in power, these machines would frequently steal the votes of members of minority groups. “I know it exists, I’ve had the chance to steal votes in my favor offered to me, and the people it hurts the most are the poor and those without power,” he said.

Davis made it clear in his speech to True the Vote that much of the opposition to voter-ID and ballot-integrity laws is a sad attempt to inject racism into the discussion and intimidate supporters of anti-fraud laws. “This is not a billy club, this is not a fire hose,” he told his audience while holding up his driver’s license. “Where is this notion that if I have a right [to vote], that I don’t have to be bothered with responsibility?”
So my question to you all, is why are you attempting to disenfranchise honest people?
 
183Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:46
I can't help but feel that Christianity is being represented so well by such love-filled remarks. Jesus must be feeling all gushy, thinking that the earth has been left in such good hands.
 
184Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:48
Baldwin seems to be forgetting the difference between voter registration fraud and voting fraud. Again. There is no evidence that "Mickey Mouse" is casting votes.

One of the reason I support same-day registration is that it eliminates "Mickey Mouse" from registering at all.
 
185Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 15:50
ACORN registers many a mickey mouse, living and deceased.

Are kenyons and marxists unloved?
 
186Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 16:10
ACORN, was indeed, the victims of people registering fake entities.

What you don't seem to be addressing is that none of those fake registration entries are actually casting votes.

It isn't voting fraud it there is no voting taking place.
 
187Tree
      ID: 26633016
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 17:15
Even if my religion allowed me, downstate Illinois learned last election cycle that we just can't outvote all the mickey-mice voting in the ghetto...

spin, spin, spin.

you do plenty of things your religion forbids, not the least of which is posting on these boards while not remaining neutral. so, put up or shut up - vote, or stop whining about the process with unfounded claims.

Is it just me or is everyone else feeling the love too?

nothing i haven't been saying for years now.

Just this week in Fort Worth, Texas, a Democratic precinct chairwoman was indicted on charges of arranging an illegal vote. Hazel Woodard James...

from the newspaper article about James...

Prosecutor David Lobingier said the indictment is the first case of election fraud in recent memory in Tarrant County.

the cited case in an exception. fraud is going to happen. it's not a widespread problem, unless you're chicken little.
 
188sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 18:12
GOP voter fraud

A senior aide and a consultant hired by former Maryland governor Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R) were indicted Thursday in a case stemming from thousands of anonymous robocalls placed on election night last year that suggested voters could stay home even though the polls were still open.

Voter ID wont stop this.

TX Tea Partiers Indicted on Voter Fraud

More than a year since a state district judge ruled 10 Montgomery County residents voted fraudulently in a Woodlands election, a grand jury last week indicted seven of those individuals for illegal voting.
The indictments stem from the May 8, 2010, election of The Woodlands Road Utility District No. 1. Ten individuals listed their voter registration address as that of a hotel in order to take control of the RUD board.

Former Montgomery County Judge candidate Adrian Heath heads the list of people charged with the third-degree felony. Heath declined comment, saying he was looking into hiring an attorney. [...]

According to indictments released by the Texas Attorney General’s Office, the defendants voted in an election they knew they were not eligible to vote.


Fraudulent registration by those damn Marxist Socialist Communist Tea Partiers trying to steal elections. (Did I get the meme right B? I tried to include all the mutually exclusive terms you seem to hold so dear. I did omit Kenyan however. I'll try harder next time. I promise)



IN R Sec of State, indicted on vpter fraud

Secretary of State Charlie White, the top election official in Indianapolis, is facing seven felony counts, including voter fraud, perjury and theft, all connected to what a prosecutor said was an attempt to hold on to his seat on the town council even though he was living outside of his designated district.

What were saying about "Eric Holder"? Dont you think, this fella was pretty well known locally there? Damn GOP Chicago Politics. (Was that batter B?)

Rep indicted after trying to register his dog as a Democrat

CA Rep arrested on voter fraud (but that isnt what makes this my fave)

(This is what makes it my fave. Emhasis deliberately added) According to California Secretary of State Debra Bowen's press release, Jacoby himself had committed voter registration fraud and perjury by lying on his own voter registration form. (That's similar to what Ann Coulter did, though she not only committed felony voter registration fraud, she also committed actual voter fraud, as well, even though such fraud is exceedingly rare.)
 
189Tree
      ID: 596493017
      Mon, Jul 30, 2012, 18:52
stop using Facts, Sarge. they're just there to fool the public into believing something that isn't true.
 
190JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 20:17
Thanks Sarge for providing PD the proof he needs to join B in the fight for Voter ID.
 
191sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 20:26
best reread those JBar. Those are Rep frauds and MAYBE 1, MAYBE, would have been prevented via photo ID. Point is...Bs meme that it is a Dem conspiracy to steal elections, is on the surface fraudulent, as is the claim that photo IDs are needed, to combat a non-existent crime.
 
192JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 20:37
Exactly unlikle the partisan hack that you are I believe that fraud is fraud. Glad to know that you don't feel that your links are crimes. So again I thank you.
 
193Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 21:04
Fraud is fraud. But fraud of one sort is not fraud of another.

In other words, a fake name on a registration form is not voter fraud. It is voter registration fraud. And Voter ID laws won't stop voter registration fraud.
 
194Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Tue, Jul 31, 2012, 21:55
A fake name on a registration form is 1/200 of a day's work for a Chicago precinct captain stuffing a ballot box. Dead guy in Forrest Lawn Cemetary? Moved out of state? Mickey Mouse? It's all good to the precinct captain, just as long as he isn't gonna walk in and ask for his ballot after it's already been cast.

Mickey Mouse, dead guy, out-of-stater all have one thing in common. Trouble getting a valid photo ID that actually get's checked out every step of the way and that is useful to the crooked precinct captain.

There is only one reason anyone could be against tightening this up. They have crooked precinct captains in their back pocket.
 
197Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 01:01
says the guy who worships criminals.
 
198Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 01:14
Boldwin continues to exhibit great pride in his unwillingness to see a distinction which could possibly, at some point, make him change his opinion on something.
 
199Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 10:55
How is a photo ID law going to stop corrupt precinct workers who create phony registrations?

You understand that a photo ID requirement is only as foolproof as the reliability of the people charged with checking them, don't you?
 
200Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 11:53
The only solution really is to have some outside law enforcement, from the justice dept or the FBI monitor these big cities. You are correct that there is no one in the big city we can expect honest elections from.

Still the more the process gets tightened down, the more hope there is, and the harder fraud is, the more pitfalls the fraudsters have to negotiate around.
 
201Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 12:18
So you acknowledge that the measures you support don't fix the problems you identify (however rampant they actually are).

Isn't this sort of "nose in the tent" exactly the tactic you accuse liberals of using to realize their long-term Marxist agenda?

So... just how much more do you want to see the process get tightened down than the voter ID requirement that you seem to feel is just the first step?

Exactly how many people do you plan to disfranchise?
 
202Razor
      ID: 48740111
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 12:40
I voted yesterday. My photo ID was asked for.
 
203Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 13:46
MITH

Has it ever occurred to you that someone who cares enuff to go down and pick up his free ID, might be slightly more inclined to know what he is voting for than someone who couldn't be bothered to pick up a free ID?

I do NOT see this as a disenfranchisement issue and never will, but if it inadvertently selected for 'knowledgeable voter' I can live with it.

If you say to me, you can't be bothered to drive down and pick up my ID but don't disenfranchise me, I say 'cry me a river'.
 
204sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 14:16
roflmfao....all people like yourself know B, is the letter that follows the candidates name. In your view, thats all you need to know.

Did it ever occur to yoou, that the truth does not support your myriad contentions?
 
205Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 14:45
Has it ever occurred to you that someone who cares enuff to go down and pick up his free ID, might be slightly more inclined to know what he is voting for than someone who couldn't be bothered to pick up a free ID?

I do NOT see this as a disenfranchisement issue and never will, but if it inadvertently selected for 'knowledgeable voter' I can live with it.


So It's "secondary" feature (after the primary feature of preventing a kind of voter fraud that you cannot show ever happens on a significant scale while doing noting about what you seem to believe are the much bigger issues) is that a person's access to transportation and personal documents inadvertently works like an unconstitutional voter intelligence requirement.

I love it. Poor elderly and poor minorities are more likely to be stupid, so who cares if we deny them suffrage.
 
206sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 14:50
as for an intelligence test for voter awareness. I'm all in favor of that. Particularly, when one realizes that it means all FOX adherents, would be DQ'd from voting.
 
207Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 14:52
Yeah I'd rethink that one sarge. You don't get to decide who makes the test.
 
208sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 15:23
key words MITH "for voter awareness", not IQ. Given that FOX viewers were recently found to be less aware of current events, than people who watch no news at all were....
 
209Mith
      ID: 14751115
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 18:58
You might want to read up on the Voting Rights Acts and why some of the provisions in them were necessary, Sarge.
 
210sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 19:16
MITH...I am not advocating such a thing. B suggested it would be a good thing, but he likes it because he thinks it will block left wing votes. I simply played devils advocate, and by mentioning the FOX viewership, point out that such a metric would DQ a HUGE segment of the voting populace that agrees with him, ideologically.

Sometimes guy, you WAY over think stuff.
 
211JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 20:43
I think B 203 was reiterating the old adage that with rights comes responsibility. One observation if i may, why are the budding democratic elections of third world countries using some form of marker (purple finger) but the greatest democracy in the world wants to be arrogant enough to think that safeguards of the process are not required to at least have an appearance of credibility. Oh well just a thought, thank you for indulging me.
 
212sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 20:52
Because 3rd world countries using markers, dont have much in the way of interconnected voter registrations. DMVs arent up to speed. The infrastructure aint there Jbar. That would be my immediate thoughts on why.

Since as a registered voter, I can only vote in one place, and my name gets marked when I do, is there a diff between marking my hand, or my name on the rolls?

 
213JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 21:15
well the difference would be that (since you dont want to prove that you are the person that they are marking off the rolls) the same person could vote as many times as he wanted under dead names, friends that aren't voting, newly registered names, names bought for packs of cigarettes, ect... At least the purple finger would stop that lol
 
214sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 21:19
except Jbar, THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED on any scale capable of changing anything.

As MITH has asked, who in hell would take the HUGE risk associated with coordinating enough people to do that, to impact an election? You are talking a conspiracy, requiring tens of thousands of people, across hundreds of thousands of precincts.

What happens to a conspiracy, with each additional person let "in on it"?
 
215JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 21:31
Please you realy don't believe what you just wrote. Due to the antiquated electoral system we are already down to 10 states and in those states a few close districts can swing the state. Not a conspiracy just an organized ground game that is highly targeted. How many people do you know that does not have a state type id (not by choice)?
 
216sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 21:34
How many are in my social circle, has nothing at all to do, with how many there are.

And yes, I believe what I just wrote. It can be clearly deduced, from the findings of the Republican Lawyers own investigation.
 
217Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 22:47
It doesn't take a vast conspiracy. All it takes is a large number of corrupt large cities. Individual cities call around, "It's a close one. Pull the ballot boxes out of your trunks."
 
218JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 07:25
ok if you believe hundred of thousands of precincts then enough said.
 
220Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 09:14
The man largely responsible for senator Franken-clown and by extention Obamacare passing...

...namely Mark Ritchie explains just how much he loves voter fraud.

Foaming at the mouth hitlerian love.

Besides, he still owes George Soros even more voter fraud.
 
221Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 09:53
The big failing blue cities have succeeded at one thing. At least their kids are metric ready for the brave new globalist world.

So we did get something back from that hive of vote fraud and corruption.
 
222Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 10:39
From the 2nd link in #220:

So if you’re following, here’s how it plays out:
1.SOS is a Soros-backed organization whose goal is to oversee elections and achieve progressive ends.
2.SOS lists Ritchie twice as one of its success stories (2006 and 2010).
3.Ritchie oversaw the senatorial recount of Franken in the past, and is currently overseeing the gubernatorial recount.
4.The Democratic winner of that recount, Dayton, visited with Soros at his apartment Monday tonight for a fundraiser.


The moronic extrapolation that Ritchie still owes George Soros even more voter fraud makes the unproven assumption that any voter fraud has been perpetrated in the first place, or making up facts.

This supposed "connecting the dots" can be applied to just about any political fundraising group with a political agenda, which would be pretty much every political fundraising group, left, right or center. Somehow, invoking Soros is supposed to be some kind of proof of something nefarious, much like the left does whenever they invoke the Koch brothers.

The reality is there are many billionaires who use their substantial resources to influence elections, and with the Citizen's United decision and the ever-expanding financial power of Super PACs, corporate billions will more and more be deciding factors in the electoral process, and ironically, these elements generally favor Republicans.
 
223sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 10:47
re 218...2,000 in Iowa, 10,000 in TX. Perhaps "tens of thousands" would be more specifically accurate, however the point itself is valid. If you wish to play anal retentive engineer, you go right on ahead.
 
224JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 16:35
ROFLMAO - I explain to you how hundreds of precincts (less than 3% of your stmt) is all that is needed to counter your ludicrous claim of hundreds of thousands and that is me playing anal retentive engineer. What's next??? Oh wait, I know, yep you guessed it, I'm a racist. Sarge your playbook is in lock step.
 
225Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 16:44
Welcome to the Politics Forum.
 
226JBarS
      ID: 51693119
      Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 16:56
Thanks, not new just haven't read or posted in a long long time. Just like the soaps, you can catch up in ten minutes. Same ol story lines.
 
230Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 13:33
I was being sarcastic. It wasn't much of a welcome.

Soap opera. That's a good analogy. Same cast of characters, same script writers, same story lines with a few new ones, and a few old ones fading away. Sometimes story lines reappear after a three year hiatus. Sometimes a character appears for only a week, or a day. And then goes away never to return. I should stop now.
 
231Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 17:30
All accurate, IMO.
 
232Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 17:15
The reason for India's recent blackout in which one tenth of humanity was without power:
power theft

One study in India’s most populous state, Andhra Pradesh, discovered that losses in electricity were 3 percent higher during election years. Politicians were winning votes by allowing power theft. And in years when no known criminal was running for office, the utility’s revenues rose 5 percent.
 
233Boldwin
      ID: 18643169
      Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 17:16
Source
 
234Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 17:20
Their infrastructure is horrible. Trains, roads, water, sewer, electricity...
 
235Tree
      ID: 47513011
      Thu, Aug 30, 2012, 18:02
A federal appeals court in Washington Thursday struck down the Texas voter ID law requiring photos for voters at the polls, calling it racially discriminatory.

 
236Seattle Zen
      ID: 47630913
      Thu, Aug 30, 2012, 18:09
Nice! From above -
Republican Gov. Rick Perry signed the voter ID measure into law last year, but it had yet not gone into effect because the federal Voting Rights Act requires changes in Texas voting laws to be pre-cleared by the U.S. Justice Department. Attorney General Eric Holder denied the pre-clearance of the measure in March, concluding that Texas failed to show the law will not have "the effect of denying or abridging the right to vote on account of race." The three-judge panel agreed.
 
237Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Aug 30, 2012, 21:57
"Chalk up another victory for fraud," said Gov. Perry, in a statement on his website. "Federal judges subverted the will of the people of Texas and undermined our effort to ensure fair and accurate elections. The Obama administration's claim that it's a burden to present a photo ID to vote simply defies common sense. I will continue to work with Attorney General Abbott to fight for the same right that other states already have to protect their elections."
................
So, they're saying having to show an ID is a race issue. Sure it is.
 
238Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Aug 30, 2012, 22:12
They said that having to show certain IDs has a disproportionate effect based upon rate, without demonstrating any benefit to counteract that effect.

Usually, when government presents "solutions" without demonstrating a problem, you conservatives are all over it. Imagine if the government decided to get rid of handguns because they are used by crazy madmen in crowds. You'd be all over it. Not just because of the problem of restricting guns in the first place, but because the problem they would be solving doesn't actually exist.

Same here--people have their right to vote restricted because of voting "fraud" with does not, in fact, exist.
 
239J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Thu, Aug 30, 2012, 23:28
So when people reference this disenfranchisement of minority voters isn't that in the same vein of existence as fraud. The numbers and data are put together from the bias and agenda that they are trying to prove. Somewhere lost in the argument is the personal responsibility that goes with the right to vote. If an ID is required for you to exercise your right to vote then you get an ID.
 
240DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 00:04
"So when people reference this disenfranchisement of minority voters isn't that in the same vein of existence as fraud. "

No, it isn't.
 
241sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 00:04
Poll Taxes (the cost of getting an ID), have been ruled unconstitutional. Maybe if the GOP focused on problems that are real, instead of trying to unconstitutionally fix/rig elections, they'd not be seen as the danger to Democracy that they have become.

 
242J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 00:10
So you agree with the law if the ID is free. Cool Sarge appreciate you joining the Voter ID side.
 
243J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 00:12
Dwet- such an insightful response.
 
244sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 00:18
No J, and that s just like a Republican to not see the truth The ID is irrelevant and unnecessary. The GOPs own investigation, yielded fewer than a dz such instances, nationally, over a 10 year period.

There is no such fraud being conducted, on even a miniature scale, let alone a scale that could influence the outcome of an election. Ergo there is no problem, in need of a solution. Now, since you are so opposed to big govt and govt waste, how about you cease trying to expand governmental influence into voter suppression, and cease wasting tax dollars trying to pass unneeded and unwarranted legislation?
 
245J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 00:54
So you really believe that NO fraud has taken place during any elections that this country has ever had. NUFF said. I do agree with you that the voter ID laws are to suppress voters; dead voters, ineligible voters, ghost voters, double voters, and non-existence voters.
 
246sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 00:59
Nice strawman J-Bar. Actually it isnt, but thats alright. The GOPs own investigation, yielded some 10 cases, of ID type erroneous voting (some wasnt fraud in fact) from 2000 to 2010, across the entire country. So something like 1 vote, annually, in the entire nation, MIGHT be altered; by an ID requirement.

Your premise is false, and therefore your argument is empty of value. The facts disprove your claim.
 
247J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 01:23
Somehow your definition of fraud is in-person cases that election officials chose to prosecute. I guess you are making the "Legitimate fraud" statement.
 
248Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 01:40
He limits his argument to cases of in-person fraud because they are the only cases that a voter ID law could prevent, so they're the only ones relevant in a discussion about the necessity of voter ID laws. This has been repeatedly hashed out here.
 
249J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 02:03
I do appreciate the words used such as NO and ONLY but it is not factual. If citizenship has to be verified to obtain an ID other than just saying so on a mail in card then ineligible voters can be restricted from illegally voting. If voting status is checked prior to issuing an ID(thus being apart of the magnetic strip) then ineligible voters may be kept from voting illegally. If roles are matched periodically to SSA death index it may at least save paper on the precincts list. If legitimate residences are required for ID then multi district voting would be deterred, by providing an ID it gives another mechanism to track why more votes were cast than people registered. Any system is only as good as the enforcers and there is already an unwillingness of a lot of poll workers to overlook the registration rules already in place.

 
250DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 09:02
"Dwet- such an insightful response."

Glad you liked it. It was really the only response needed to refute the point.
 
251sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 00:21
OH must restore early voting rights to ALL citizens

Even though there have been only TEN documented cases of in person voter fraud in twelve years in the entire country according to this study HERE- the Republican party continues to push these illegal measures. And it is clear to any fair, objective person that they are doing this to win politically. A recent GOP official in Ohio said this : HERE
 
254J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 19:39
Early voting and absentee have shown to have the most fraud. And you really have pushed your TEN number because most are not caught because there is no ID law and then are not prosecuted because the justice system is backed up. I guess you didn't get the Legitimate fraud reference, I guess I gave to much credit.
 
255DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 19:50
"Early voting and absentee have shown to have the most fraud."

And you clearly agree that voter ID laws do absolutely nothing to prevent absentee voter fraud, right?

I got the reference, it just wasn't worthy of dignifying a response to.
 
256J-Bar
      ID: 87313020
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 19:53
Sarge, that was a hilariously unbiased source of info. that you have there. I couldn't even tell if the quote was ever qouted exactly as he said it or only with the interpretive add in. Also it is funny how everyone argued with B about judicial activism and how it was silly but now it is the proof that these laws are racist because a judge says so. I believe with rights comes responsibility and others don't. Topic closed
 
257DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 20:09
"Also it is funny how everyone argued with B about judicial activism and how it was silly but now it is the proof that these laws are racist because a judge says so."

No, that's not why. Poll taxes were implemented for the express purpose of promoting racism, despite not once mentioning race. This is similar.

"I believe with rights comes responsibility and others don't."

Um, no.

"Topic closed"

Good, now the rest of us can discuss it rationally.
 
258sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 20:10
"Topic closed". Is that the modern GOP for "OK, you kicked my ass so now I am going to go crawl into dank, dark hole and hide"? I'm just asking.
 
259Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 20:11
I believe with rights comes responsibility and others don't

Absolutely. Including the responsibility to see that civil rights are applied equally.
 
260Boldwin
      ID: 51848310
      Mon, Sep 03, 2012, 21:25
J-Bar, would you be available as an emergency alternate in the Poliboard Football League in case that becomes necessary?
 
261J-Bar
      ID: 12812520
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 21:15
Sorry B I don't know anything about it and really don't visit much anymore.
 
262J-Bar
      ID: 12812520
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 22:03
No Sarge, just the opposite. When people use ALL, NO, ONLY in there argument it goes to show the ridiculousness of the argument. Believe me your 10 convicted cases means nothing. But if we follow the same math and logic; then only 11000 or so rapes occur and even using the bloated 5% figure from the feminists groups that is 550 pregnancies due to rape of those that would reach FT 300-400 pregnancies out of 6 million seems insignificant but you fight for the exception (which i happen to agree with). Voter fraud laws are largely not enforced, so to point to 10 convictions and say see it doesn't exist is ridiculous.
 
263DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 22:09
Your understanding of the logic here is, how can I say this and remain civil, very very unique.
 
264sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 22:12
Those 10 demonstrable cases only mean nothing, if your intent has nothing to do with preventing fraud. But rather, your motive is to prevent persons with whom you disagree ideologically, from voting.

As I recall, you wear, or wore, the uniform of an Officer. Please remind me, of where in that oath you took, you are charged with upholding only the rights of the GOP?
 
265J-Bar
      ID: 12812520
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 22:28
Having election laws are nothing new. You yourself stated that the purple finger was because of no organized registration. We in this country have a registration and voting process that actually is less perfect than the purple finger. We have increased the fraud laden absentee vote and early vote process. Same day and pre-registration with nothing more than your word that you are who you are is fine. Also no proof that you are even an eligible voter is req. to register. And all of this is done to ensure that someone is not disenfranchised. Right. I think it is more racist to assume that people of color, ethnicity, or lower socio-economic status are not capable of being responsible and do the things required to protect their right to vote. I believe people rise up to expectations to be included and not that expectations have to be lowered to include people.
 
266DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 22:35
" I think it is more racist to assume that people of color, ethnicity, or lower socio-economic status are not capable of being responsible and do the things required to protect their right to vote."

Except that there are far more specific examples of exactly this happening than there are specific examples of voter fraud WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED BY THE ID LAWS YOU ARE DEFENDING.

And yes, poor and elderly people DO have problems in presenting the information required to get what you want them to get in a timely fashion, never mind the fact that you are, I'm quite sure, going to charge them money to get these IDs that you demand that they have, which makes this, in effect, exactly like a poll tax.
 
267Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 22:45
I haven't seen any evidence of "fraud laden absentee vote and early vote process." Any links to such evidence? I'm genuinely interested.

Same day and pre-registration with nothing more than your word that you are who you are is fine

I'm not sure that you understand the nature of the ID's being requested to demonstrate the voter's identity. Nevertheless, my own proposal would be to use voter ID for those utilizing early voting and/or same day registration. You go to the poll with a driver's license or passport, and you get to vote with no pre-registration required. And the system tags your license to indicate that you already voted.
 
268J-Bar
      ID: 12812520
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 23:03
Dwetz- How many free IDs and how much community outreach are needed for you to stop the ridiculous poll tax analogy?

PD - I am good with you having a current ID with an address in precinct that you are voting in for same day registration. I also think that pre-registration should require ID and address proof and should expire and have to be renewed. What gets lost in this argument for president are all of the local races that can be and has been affected by unethical means on both sides.
 
269sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 23:11
What seems lost J-Bar, is an acknowledgement form you, that photo IDs would have virtually no impact at all, on voter fraud. What seems lost, is the fact that even if every state offered free IDs (which they havent), they have not offered free transportation to and from the issuing point for the ID. Nor, have they offered to pay for the certified copy of a BC (if one is even available).

The poll tax analogy, is FAR from ridiculous.
 
270Boldwin
      ID: 29847520
      Wed, Sep 05, 2012, 23:32
J-Bar

We really need you, if you can manage a fantasy team well. The person whose team you would take over, never posted here ever.
 
271DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 00:08
"Dwetz- How many free IDs and how much community outreach are needed for you to stop the ridiculous poll tax analogy? "

All of them, would be a good start.

What I'm concerned about is stuff like what happened in Wisconsin, where, as part of state budget cuts, they closed a bunch of service centers, which JUST COINCIDENTALLY happened to be in primarily poor areas. It's incredibly easy to make even a well intentioned law (which I don't think these are) into nothing but political tools.

You think there's actual voter fraud that can be prevented -- I'm picturing the mass of "oh, sorry, your 73 year old birth certificate doesn't meet our standards, so no you can't vote in this election, it's purely a coincidence that I saw you at a (Candidate X) rally. You can certainly apply for a new one; I'm quite sure it will arrive in time for you to vote in the NEXT election, hahahaha". And if you're concerned about fraud on a local level affecting elections, surely you will acknowledge that this sort of thing would be far more prevalent than actual voter fraud that IDs would prevent.
 
272Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Wed, Sep 26, 2012, 11:11


warning - this contains language not suitable for children and adults who can't handle some Ucks with their F's and some aginas with their V's.
 
273Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 16:47
and then there's this:

What first appeared to be an isolated problem in one Florida county has now spread statewide, with election officials in at least seven counties informing prosecutors or state election officials about questionable voter registration forms filled out on behalf of the Republican Party of Florida.

post 220 looks even sillier now.

but post 217? it's right on the money, describing the Florida GOP. and it REALLY makes you wonder about the election of 2000 now.
 
274sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 20:05
Those zany Republicans...upto their same old tricks
 
275Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 01:55
i notice that Baldwin made a comment in another thread regarding some perceived irregularities on the part of Democrats.

conveniently, he ignored this thread, where there is proof positive of things we don't like to hear about.
 
276Boldwin
      ID: 484290
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 05:49
I hear Dems making enuff noise to drown out the complaints about Soros' "Secretary of State Project". I figure Republicans need to win by an extra two percent just to make up for that fraud.
 
277Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 09:07
lmao. so widespread pretty easy to document voter fraud on behld of republicans is "making enuff noise to drown out complaints", while completely unsubstantiated and non-existent fraud on behalf democrats is enough to change laws.

i see.
 
278Boldwin
      ID: 484290
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 09:41
I'd love to see you and some Chicago ward boss discuss that any length of time and try and keep a straight face.
 
279Tree
      ID: 55819299
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 10:26
I'd love to see you and some Chicago ward boss discuss that any length of time and try and keep a straight face.

which if course has nothing to do with documented fraud on the part of Florida Republicans being referred to by you as Democratic "noise to drown out", while unsubstantiated and non-existent fraud on the part of Dems is, according to you, enough to change laws and potentially trample on constitutional rights.

ohhhh, i get it. you want me to talk to a chicago ward boss to see have explained to me why you approve of such dirty and unethical tricks.

got it now.
 
280Boldwin
      ID: 428282914
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 16:07
No, I mean anyone with even passing acquaintance with Chicago knows voter fraud is endemic to big city democratic machine politics.

And you and Sarge claiming otherwise just degrades your credibility, whether libs here admit it or not.
 
281sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 16:11
hahahahahahahaahahahahaahaha
 
282Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 18:03
No, I mean anyone with even passing acquaintance with Chicago knows voter fraud is endemic to big city democratic machine politics.

And you and Sarge claiming otherwise just degrades your credibility, whether libs here admit it or not.


you still haven't touched 273. that's a lot more damaging to one's credibility.
 
283sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Oct 01, 2012, 22:36
still MORE GOP voter registration fraud

A Republican voter outreach program named ‘The Golden State Voter Participation Project’ stationed workers outside of stores and welfare offices to sign people up. Democratic activists are alleging fraud and have given the county registrar of voters 133 affidavits from Democrats, many of whom are Latino or African American, who state that they were wrongly re-registered as Republicans. Many were presented with documents that were misrepresented. One thought he was signing a petition to lower the price of gasoline, another that he was supporting the legalization of marijuana. Some were promised free cigarettes in exchange for signing.

...

Candidate Richard Roth, who is running for state Senate against the Republican incumbent, is making the alleged fraud a campaign issue. After all, in an unfortunate development for the GOP, Roth is one of the victims whose registration was changed to Republican. He complains that the drive was manned by paid signature collectors who received $7 for every signature, and that his opponent voted against a measure that would ban ‘bounty hunter’ registrations.
 
284CJ
      ID: 1691921
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 02:29
This is all a JOKE ! All of you just keep finding one story after another pointing out the other is trying to rig the election...ha ha ha STUPID !
Elections have been rigged for a very long time......but now it is so blatant it is sickening. This country is doomed for we the people have lost the grip over our own Government. And we will never get it back because they love to see Dems fight Repubs. Romney will Lose this election, and Obama will kill the us into deeper recession and Debt and in the end still blaming someone else. If you are having kids consider moving to another country. Not sure where to go but there will be no middle class left in about 10 years.
 
285Boldwin
      ID: 2992210
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:33
he ignored this thread, where there is proof positive of things we don't like to hear about.

you still haven't touched 273. that's a lot more damaging to one's credibility.


Funny. Who is the side that both wants to believe that vote fraud never happens and we shouldn't check for it...and that voter fraud is rampant everywhere...republican voter fraud.

Ok. Again, let's get tough on truing the vote.
 
286biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 11:44
Step one, go back to paper.

Step two, enforce the Supreme court's decision that poll taxes are illegal.
 
287Perm Dude
      ID: 56832185
      Tue, Oct 02, 2012, 12:32
PA judge guts Voter ID by allowing a somewhat nonsensical process to vote.

So the poll worker can ask for an ID, but still has to allow the vote if the voter doesn't have it. So what is the point of asking for it?

Glad the law has been neutered, but the problem here is that the process is stupidly clunky.
 
288slug
      ID: 167132313
      Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 14:19
I found this article interesting. A little background: MN has two proposed constitutional amendmants on the general ballot this year. One is primarily about voter ID, but has other eletion items too; the other is to limit marriage to one man/one woman (a law that already exists in MN statutes)
The author, Jack Davies, is a memeber of the Democratic-Farmer-Laborite Party and was a state senator from 1958 to 1982
A Clean Constitution
 
289Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 00:31
Romney now reaping troop support 2:1 over Obama

120,000 troops reported not receiving a requested ballot in the 2010 election.

Even as state election officials across the U.S. have noticed a rise in military voting, a disturbing trend has appeared. The rate active-duty military voters who reported not receiving a requested absentee ballot almost doubled from 16 percent in 2008 to 29 percent in 2010, according to a survey done by the Defense Department’s Federal Voter Assistance Program (FVAP).
---
A federal judge ruled Friday that Ohio’s uniform voting law that gives special privileges to military voters is unconstitutional.

the judge sided with the Obama campaign’s argument that military voters cannot be treated differently under the law. Obama had argued that Ohio’s rules giving members of the military extra days and hours to vote constituted “arbitrary and inequitable treatment of similarly situated Ohio voters.”

Fifteen military groups filed a motion to intervene in the case and other courts have ruled that members of the military are uniquely situated and must be given every opportunity (even extra opportunities) to vote.
---
In a Sept. 13 hearing of the House Armed Services Committee’s subcommittee on military personnel to discuss the Inspector General report, Rep. Austin Scott (R-Ga.) suggested the problem lay with Obama administration priorities.

“It seems to me that the DoD made sure that they got the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell surveys (determining the effects of a repeal) to every member of the military, to every spouse, to everybody that they were supposed to,” he said. “But when it comes to military voting, it seems that we’re not able to get the absentee ballots to our soldiers…it seems to me that there’s a different standard there when it comes to voting versus a survey that the DoD or the administration actually wanted a response to.”
----
[pentagon not complying with 2009 law to facilitate military voting]

The Military and Overseas Voter Empowerment (MOVE) Act was passed by Congress in 2009 and signed into law by President Barack Obama and was supposed to make it easier for service people deployed overseas and U.S. citizens living abroad to cast ballots back in their home states.

One of the key provisions required each military branch to create an installation voting assistance office (IVAO) for every military base outside an immediate combat zone.

But the Pentagon’s inspector general, the military’s internal watchdog, reported Tuesday it got a disappointing result when it tried to locate such voting assistance offices on each installation earlier this year.

“Results were clear. Our attempts to contact IVAOs failed about 50 percent of the time,” the inspector general reported. “We concluded the Services had not established all the IVAOs as intended by the MOVE Act because, among other issues, the funding was not available.”

The Pentagon estimates it could cost $15 million to $20 million a year to create all the offices required by the law.

In addition, Pentagon officials apparently disagree with the tactics the law recommended, preferring to use advertising and digital outreach efforts to educae overseas military personnel, rather than creating the voting assistance offices.

“DoD officials also posed concerns about IVAO effectiveness,” the inspector general reported. “They noted that younger military personnel were the biggest DoD military population segment and emphasized that IVAOs were likely not the most cost effective way to reach out to them given their familiarity and general preference for communicating via on-line social media and obtaining information from Internet Web sites.

“They suggested assistance might be provided more effectively and efficiently by targeted advertising,” the report noted.

The inspector general recommended the Pentagon create better survey capabilities to identify the voting needs of soldiers, sailors, Marines and Air Force personnel after the 2012 election and to work with Congress to change the parts of the law that it isn’t complying with.
 
290Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 00:35
A 92 percent drop in absentee-ballot requests by military personnel in Virginia is raising concerns that the Pentagon is failing to carry out a federal voting law.
 
291sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 00:38
I had this nice rebuttal all typed out, and thought...why Its B, he doesnt give a damn about the truth anyway so why bother. So I deleted it.
 
292Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 00:42
As polls show support for President Obama sagging in the battleground state of Wisconsin, the sheriff in one of the state’s most populous Democratic counties says he wants inmates to vote and his deputies to ignore the felon status some of them might have. Wisconsin state law prohibits felons from voting while they are serving jail time or on parole.

Sheriff Dave Mahoney of Dane County, home to the state capitol of Madison, is a former union official who frequently involves himself in the local political scene. A memo sent Lt. Mark Twombly of his department instructed deputies working at the county jail to allow inmates to obtain and cast absentee ballots. The memo specifically instructed the officers to not check the department’s computer system to determine whether or not the inmate is eligible to vote under state law.

When asked about the memo, Mahoney told a leftwing Madison talk show host that he was not going to back down on the instructions. Instead of admitting that his office was poised to potentially facilitate violations of state election law, Mahoney angrily lashed out at the deputy who leaked the memo calling the whistleblower “unethical” and “unprofessional.”

Sheriff Mahoney has ties to the Democratic establishment in Wisconsin. A former labor union boss, Mahoney refused to arrest protesters at the state capitol when they harassed and threatened Republican lawmakers and staff. Some female staffers felt extremely threatened by male protesters who would walk into their offices shouting and threatening them. Mahoney excused the protesters’ actions by saying Republicans provoked them by introducing collective bargaining reform legislation.
 
293Boldwin
      ID: 589301022
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 00:43
Tell me again how republican lawyers have proven there's only been 6 cases of vote fraud ever, Sarge.
 
294sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 00:54
(A) I said 10, not 6
(B) I said IMPERSONATION voter fraud. The type of fraud where an ID makes a potential difference.

See B? There you go, conveniently ignoring facts. Like most every other rightwing extremist out there.
 
295sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 11, 2012, 11:05
Here ya go Boldwin...just for you

How Romney could steal the election via vote MACHINE fraud.
 
296Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Oct 15, 2012, 19:36
The Ohio GOP apparently see their chance to win this thing without voter suppression dwindling, and have asked SCOTUS to take up their case of (now) refusing non-military voters from early voting.

Obviously it is always hard to tell, in the wake of Bush v Gore, what SCOTUS will do, but I can't see them taking up this case three week before the election and with some people already having voted.
 
297sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 13:54
How is this NOT voter fraud/intimidation?

On October 1st, company President and COO Dave Robinson sent a packet to all 50,000 employees of the company. Inside of the packet was a memo along with a voting guide for Koch-approved candidates in the particular employees district. The voting guide, leaked earlier this month, is for the state of Oregon. Other pieces included an anti-Obama editorial written by Charles Koch paired up with a pro-Romney editorial by David Koch. Also included in the packet there was an article by Investor’s Business Daily where they claimed the free market was the cause of Canada’s higher per-capita wealth, ignoring the fact that Canada is Socialist according to libertarians. Another piece included as a piece written by Charles Koch where he fought to defend the American Legislative Exchange Council, calling it a “leading free-market association of state legislators with thousands of members and supporters” even while it fought to get put into law anti-democracy policies.

Koch Industries, and its various subsidiaries such as Georgia Pacific, already have a code of conduct which requires employees to vet their politics before the company management should they choose to run for office. Their policies also threaten employees with termination for their social activity. The policy states “Even if your social media conduct is outside of the workplace and/or non-work related, it must not reflect negatively on GP’s reputation, its products, or its brands.” Who judges if it reflects negatively? Why, Koch Industries senior management of course. Koch Industries, in response to employee engagement in legal out-of-work activity at their Georgia Pacific Camas facility laid off over 750 workers. Punitive action indeed for exercising ones right to free speech.


(
 
298Boldwin
      ID: 09251621
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 14:12
If you think you can survive a facebook scandal without it effecting your employment whoever your employer is, think again.
 
299sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 14:14
I am referring B, to this being the 4th CEO to threaten his employees with termination, if Obama is re-elected.
 
300Boldwin
      ID: 09251621
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 14:19
Everyone who works at an establishment with @50 employees is gonna find out exactly what Obamacare means to them.
 
301Boldwin
      ID: 09251621
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 14:20
It means there won't be 50 employees working there anymore.
 
302sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 14:29
false
 
303Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 14:41
I, for one, don't believe that those letters are anything more than standard fear mongering (as opposed to actual voter intimidation).
 
304Frick
      ID: 157331422
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 15:05
So are we to take these threats more seriously then all of the people who proclaimed they were moving to Canada if Bush was reelected? I must have missed the coverage of all of them moving.

The employees still have their freedom of speech, but there might be consequences to that speech. Depending on their individual state, they may or may not have recourse for improper termination.

I agree with PD that it is more fear mongering then voter intimidation. Are they going to bring employees in and polygraph them to find out how they voted? What still gets me is how many companies still think that written mailings are going to be believed, let alone read by employees. I'm guessing the vast majority of the mailings went straight into the trash.
 
305Boldwin
      ID: 539121714
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 15:13
They aren't going to fire anyone for their political beliefs unless they start threatening or harrassing people or getting into a notorious scandal or something like that.
 
306Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 16:02
Re 297 and not the nonsense that follows:

one of my closest friends, who is one of the lead attorneys, a senior VP, and the Chief Ethics and Compliance Officer for one of the largest companies in the world said this about this topic:

I think it is illegal. I just had one of my outside counsel do some work on this issue, and I'm almost sure this is a violation of Federal Election Commission rules.
 
307Boldwin
      ID: 539121714
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 16:51
Read it and weep.
 
308sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 16:59
Darden, which, ironically, bills itself as "the world's largest full-service restaurant company," made headlines last year when it started a "tip sharing" program requiring the waitstaff to share its tips with all other employees. According to the Associated Press, "That allows Darden to pay more workers a far lower 'tip credit wage' of $2.13, rather than the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour."

Already been a scum sucking place to work. This just might cost them entire staffs, who walk out the door some Saturday/Sunday morning.
 
309Boldwin
      ID: 539121714
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 17:14
Companies are going to do backflips to avoid that law. I sure would.
 
311sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 22:45
Voter Rights Act of 1965

SEC. 11. (a) No person acting under color of law shall fail or refuse to permit any person to vote who is entitled to vote under any provision of this Act or is otherwise qualified to vote, or willfully fail or refuse to tabulate, count, and report such person's vote.

(b) No person, whether acting under color of law or otherwise, shall intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for voting or attempting to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for urging or aiding any person to vote or attempt to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for exercising any powers or duties under section 3(a), 6, 8, 9, 10, or 12(e).


I'll ask our resident attorneys to weigh in on this if they dont mind.
 
312Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 23:03
By that standard, you violate the law yourself, sarge, with the predictions of what will happen if Romney is elected.

Which is why we don't use such a low standard.
 
313sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 23:37
A prediction doesnt constitute a threat PD. There is no threat implied, and there is no threat conveyed, in the making of a prediction. As an employer however, there most certainly IS a threat, if I tell my staff...if "X" passes, you all will be fired.
 
314sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 23:50
this apparently answers my question

It is legal "coercion", but not for the reasons one might think. "Citizens United", perhaps an unintended consequence, but since the corporate entity is a "person", it has the right of free speech. Wonderful.
 
315Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 02:19
there is no threat conveyed, in the making of a prediction

Right. Which is exactly what the CEO's were doing. "If Obama is elected all our jobs are threatened" is basically what was being said.
 
316sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 03:49
No PD...that is not what the article says. Read it again.
 
317Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 03:56
I wasn't commenting on the article, I was commenting on the original letters. You'll note (perhaps for the first time) that I quoted your #313, not #314.
 
318sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 04:04
It makes no difference. They are the same. An employer, thanks to CU, has the legal right to TELL you "vote this way, or I will fire you". It appears that the Voters Rights Act of 65, will apply only to poll workers. That an employer saying "Vote against this bond issue, or you're out of a job", is now perfectly acceptable. PRIOR to the CU ruling, it WOULD have been a violation of the VRA.

Welcome, to fascist America.
 
319sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 04:05
Joe Walsh telling supporters "Tell your employees how to vote"

sorry, forgot the link
 
320Frick
      ID: 2193319
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 09:10
The right predicting the end of the world if Obama is re-elected isn't voter coercion. There is a line between, if Obama is elected, I'm going to have to close the business and you'll be fired to vote for Obama and I will fire you.

Unless employers cross that line, they are free to say what they want to employees. You are also free to not do business with them (e.g., Chic-fil-A).
 
321Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 10:52
Companies are going to do backflips to avoid that law. I sure would.

So you want to see Medicaid roles swell expotentially, so you can bitch and moan about government spending? Or do you just think access to health care should be as limited as possible?
 
322sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 12:24
This is not a mere prediction. To say to employees, "If the redskins lose Sunday, Imma be a prick on Monday", THAT is a prediction. One where the behavior of the employees has no way at all, upon the outcome. Here however, the employer is influencing the behavior of the employee. The employee can act in a way, potentially contrary to their own beliefs, in order to preserve their employment, THAT, is coercion.

 
323Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Oct 21, 2012, 15:00
The letter wasn't even original. See the end of this Snopes piece.
 
324Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 14:54
USA Today
A new Ohio program intended to make voting easier has the potential to keep the presidential election in doubt until late November if the national outcome hinges on the state's 18 electoral votes.

Under Secretary of State Jon Husted's initiative to send absentee ballot applications to nearly 7 million registered voters across Ohio, more than 800,000 people so far have asked for but not yet completed an absentee ballot for the Nov. 6 election.

Anyone who does not return an absentee ballot, deciding instead to vote at the polls, will be required to cast a provisional ballot. That's so officials may verify that they did not vote absentee and also show up at the polls.

By state law, provisional ballots may not be counted until at least Nov. 17. That means that if Ohio's electoral votes would be decisive in the race between President Obama and former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, the state could keep the nation in suspense for weeks after the election.
Balloon Juice
It was really bone-headed to launch this immediately prior to a Presidential election, and anyone with any sense knew this might happen. Even without bad intent, each and every time Republicans change election process, the potential for error goes up.

If you requested an absentee ballot in Ohio, be aware that you have to vote absentee. if you request and receive an absentee ballot and then change your mind and go on Election Day to vote in person, you will be given a provisional ballot. Voting a provisional ballot is a last resort. Avoid doing that.

 
325Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 15:16
Ohio has acted like a bunch of amateurs this whole election season. Wouldn't be a big deal except that they are likely to be the most important state.
 
326Boldwin
      ID: 12107713
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 06:45
Obama lost every state with a voter ID law: which goes a long way to explaining how someone can get re-elected with his economic record.

 
327Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 10:16
326, Thats certainly a red flag that raises some questions. But don't you think there are some more likely answers than a rigged election?

For example - political philosophy? Could it be that in this polarized country where there is only black and white, right/left, up/down and no real middle ground in politics that the states that felt voter id laws are a bad idea are also states that are by and large democrats because that is one of the principles they agree on?

And could it be that the states that maintained and upheld voter id laws, by and large are republican because that is something that republicans generally agree on?

I know, I'm just a RINO in your eyes. But i'm not defending Obama. I'm just suggesting that the maybe the answer is not some nefarious plot bent on total world destruction. Maybe the answer is a lot simpler.
 
328Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 10:20
Obama lost every state with a voter ID law:

this, too, is a lie.

a quick look at the map shows that Washington, Colorado, Ohio, Virginia, DC, Delaware, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Vermont all have Voter ID laws, and all went to Obama. (did you even look at the map in your own links!?!?)

now, it's entirely possible what you meant to say was "Obama lost every state with a photo ID law", which is true: Only four states - Kansas, Indiana, Tennessee, and Georgia have such laws.

it should be noted that those states also usually vote Republican anyway.

Since Reagan's win in 1980, Kansas has never voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. Indiana went for Obama in 2008. but went Republican for the other 8 presidential elections in that time frame. Georgia went Dem in 1980 (Carter) and 1992 (Clinton), and Tennessee was also just twice, in 1992 and 1996 (Clinton each time).

either way, the outcome is the same - one is blatant dishonesty, another is lying by omission - yes, Obama lost the FOUR states with Voter Photo ID Laws, but Democrats have lost those states 35 out of 40 times since 1980 anyway.
 
329Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:37
Voter ID laws were only passed in GOP-controlled states.
 
330Khahan
      ID: 39432178
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:53
Thats false, too PD. Every state has some form of voter ID law, even if its as simple as - you must register to vote. Stating Voter-id laws were only passed in GoP controlled states is as much an obfuscation of the truth as what boldwin is claiming.

Also, PA had its voter id law overturned and as noted, most 56/67 counties are GoP. All depends on how you cook the numbers (and I admit I'm cooking the numbers..but thats my point).
 
331Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:04
I think Boldwin wasn't referring to that however (neither does his article, which excludes PA from its list of states without Voter ID as well). "Voter ID" has a specific connotation here, even if they are cherry picking the states.

My point above was simply that this indicated a co-relational thing, rather than a causal thing. The Right would like to continue to believe in their myth, that the only way they could lose was through fraud.
 
332Mith
      ID: 18451815
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:15
I guess the voter suppression effort worked exactly as intended.
 
333Tree
      ID: 101027811
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:27
dang. i was really hoping Baldwin would have responded to the facts in 328 before getting the boot.
 
334Great One
      ID: 2431114
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:39
ah... remember this? yeah, no underlying motive, right?

Pennsylvania's GOP House majority leader, Mike Turzai - the voter ID law "is going to allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania."
 
335Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 16:07
I notice now that several comments in the article linked in #326 have been deleted from the comments section of that site. Including my own, all the now-deleted comments pushed back on the nation that the election was stolen.

The head-in-the-sand continues. They simply don't want to hear anything which runs contrary to their own myths.
 
336Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 16:11
When I went to point that out, the warning came up:

"You do not have permission to post on this thread"

Nice.
 
337sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 17:00
The blind refusal to acknowledge reality, if it continues, WILL doom the GOP to follow the Whigs into history.
 
338Tree
      ID: 41011820
      Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 21:11
dang. i was really hoping Baldwin would have responded to the facts in 328 before getting the boot.

i stand corrected. Baldwin didn't get booted from the site. he voluntarily took a two hour vacation, and then opted not to respond when he realized, once again, when faced with facts, he had no response.
 
339Boldwin
      ID: 2710111023
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 00:21
Allen West's Congressional District saw massive voter fraud: 141% voter turnout in St. Lucie County.

Do we really have to get +20% margins of victory to beat you cheaters?

Sarge, just don't ever EVER bring out that stupid chestnut about only 8 cases of voter fraud ever.

I doubt we'll ever see a fair election in this country again. Hard to believe this country actually DID need outside foreign observers, it's just that over the moon corrupt here.
 
340sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 00:24
I never said anything, ever, about 8 cases. I said repeatedly, there were only FEW cases of IMPERSONATION voter fraud, nationally, over a 10 year period. A fact, you have never been able to dispute, but keep denying.

What is your source, for 141% voter turn-out? (The rightwingbat blogosphere, does not count as a source)
 
341sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 00:28
a 2 minute bit of research Boldwin, and we find that it is 141% CARDS CAST, not VOTES cast. The ballot, was a 2-card ballot, so each and every voter, cast 2 cards.

you dont even pretend to research anymore

forum discussing this topic, INTELLIGENTLY
 
342Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 00:30
Ha! "141%" will go down with "47%" as famous last words of Republicans during this election.

Must have been an unfair election! Had to have! No other possible explanation from my conservative media overlords!

Sarge, just don't ever EVER bring out that stupid chestnut about only 8 cases of voter fraud ever

Because you are tired of having no response? So are we, dude, So are we.
 
343Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 02:26
didn't have the guts to respond to 328, and he won't have the guts to respond to 340.

schooled by even the lightest of research - then again, research doesn't matter once you've accepting lying in front of your God as acceptable.
 
344DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 11:55
Liars gonna lie. Again.
 
345bibA
      ID: 54522612
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 12:06
jeez DW - give it a rest.
 
346DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 12:18
It's bemusing that pointing put people knowingly lying is what prompts you to post, NOT the person doing the lying.
 
347Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 12:41
I agree with bibA. You take entirely too much public joy in point out the lies of others. I, for one, would prefer a more content-rich posting.
 
348Boldwin
      ID: 5710541118
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 20:50
On Tuesday only one precinct had less than 113% turnout. - Townhall

This is Bill Buckley's outfit. They are a entirely reputable source.

What is direputable is you guys pretending 113% turnout and more is not conclusive, unimpeachable, self-evident proof of massive voter fraud of the kind you guys were wildly in favor of facilitating.
 
349sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 20:53
1 voter, 2 card ballot, = 2 CARDS cast, but NOT 2 votes. Hey B, really...LEARN TO READ ENGLISH.
 
350Boldwin
      ID: 5710541118
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:04
Bill Buckley's crew know english just fine.
 
351sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:15
Last comment for youo B, of a civilized nature:

St Lucie county had 124,606 voters turn-out of 175,554 registered. Thats WELL under, the 141% you cite above.

county by county reporting status

none, exceeded 100%.

go away B, you've become the lowest form of Troll, on the forum.
 
352Boldwin
      ID: 5710541118
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:32
The St. Lucie County Supervisor of Elections Gertrude Walker gone underground, hired an attorney, and the attorney is refusing to respond to people.

We'll see.

You guys think you can explain all the fraud away, I've been reading about Detroit precincts that voted exactly 100% Obama in every voting location that didn't have an unbiased observer.

Really talking with you 'by any means necessary' unethical, anti-americans is not very rewarding.
 
353DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:32
"Bill Buckley's crew know english just fine."

I knew Bill Buckley. Bill Buckley was a friend of mine. You're no Bill Buckley.
 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:35
We can't speak to what you read. We can speak that this newest meme you've chosen to spread is as false as the others.

...is not very rewarding

Depends upon your goal here, yes? Which is...?
 
355Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:41
Really talking with you 'by any means necessary' unethical, anti-americans is not very rewarding.

Exactly who do you mean by "you?"
 
356Boldwin
      ID: 5710541118
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:43
Lloyd Bentson actually did know Kennedy perhaps.

I'm a lot closer to Bill Buckley's caliber than you, DWetz. Bill Buckley whom you haven't even read. I've sat at Bill Buckley's feet reading a large proportion of everything Buckley ever wrote.
 
357Boldwin
      ID: 5710541118
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:44
You know who you are.
 
358DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:44
You've forgotten more Buckley than you ever thought you knew. That's the problem, you've forgotten it all.

Bill Buckley would hate you personally and politically.
 
359Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:55
where exactly do you come up with this nonsense? are the sites you read just completely dishonest? or that ill-informed...

The St. Lucie County Supervisor of Elections Gertrude Walker gone underground, hired an attorney, and the attorney is refusing to respond to people.

so underground, in fact, she's hanging out, tonight, at an emergency meeting of the St. Lucie County Canvassing Board at the elections office in Fort Pierce .

in fact, Walker's attorney is there too.



this photo was taken a few hours ago.

 
360Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 21:58
You know who you are.

No I don't.
Calling posters on this board unethical and Anti-American, based on whatever did or did not happen in Florida or Detroit is completely out of line, and puts your ethics in question.
 
361DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 23:05
Oh, on this:

"You guys think you can explain all the fraud away, I've been reading about Detroit precincts that voted exactly 100% Obama in every voting location that didn't have an unbiased observer."

Eliminate Wayne County (which is where Detroit is, and it's a county that is ALWAYS heavily Democratic) from the election and Obama still wins Michigan by over 100,000 votes.

So, in other words, EVEN IF the unsubstantiated lying bullcrap was true, Romney STILL loses.

I mean, how terrible do you have to be at math to even attempt a lie that big?
 
362Boldwin
      ID: 5710541118
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 23:19
Compendium of Obama Voter Fraud
 
363biliruben
      ID: 21841115
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 23:25
This ain't a few hanging chads with the election in balance.

This is getting stomped deeply, broadly, and thoroughly. And not being able to stop the whine is pathetic and sad, and it's simply because that's the Breitbarts of the world's bread and butter, and because they don't have anything better to do.

Nonsense Tatare. Seething, confused masses of semi-demented, scratching, clawing for anything that will allow them to avoid the truth.
 
364Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 23:30
From the link in #362

All things considered, on this page and elsewhere, Mitt Romney IS our President elect.

All things considered? Have they considered the level of delusion needed to swing a 332 to 206 electoral victory into a stolen election? The absurdity prohibits any further consideration of the site's claims.
 
365Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Nov 11, 2012, 23:53
Pretty high level of self-delusion. The GOP "Attack on Facts" continues.
 
366sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 00:11
We may well be witnessing, the beginning of the end of the GOP.
 
367sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 00:15
here is a new one:

Obama won because of threat of "rape camps"

Yes, its on Addicting Info, but the embedded video in the article, is a FOX guest commentator
 
368sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 00:26
Huckabee blames Christians

Santorum blames homsexuals
 
369Boldwin
      ID: 5710541118
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:15
This time the USDA delayed its release nine days past the semi-official deadline, far past the election, and until Friday night to report August foodstamp data. One glance at the number reveals why: at 47.1 million, this was not only a new all time record, but the monthly increase of 420,947 from July was the biggest monthly increase in one year. One can see why a reported surge in foodstamps ahead of the elections is something the USDA, and the administration may not have been too keen on disclosing. ZeroHedge
BLS Hides Election season Bribery nine days, until after election
 
370sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:18
and from that B, what are we to gather? That the divorced from society, non-voting, far right wingnuts, would prefer to see children starve to death, than get food-stamps?
 
371Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:27
Exactly, sarge. The USDA is now in on it, because if the GOP was to get in suddenly people would not want or need food stamps. Or something.

The fact that the Administration telegraphed its intentions to delay releasing information on account of Hurricane Sandy seems to have missed many on the Rights who are desperate to cling to some reason other than a poor candidate brought to you by pissy, angry people.

Then, of course, there is this.
 
372Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 01:45
i wonder how it feels to have your every argument thoroughly debunked by simple research within moments of posting that original argument.

Baldwin - care to discuss 352's silly claims, and it's debunking 30 minutes later?

or, is tucking your head in the sand more your style? again.
 
378Boldwin
      ID: 361012125
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 08:23
In 59 Philly wards, Romney got ZERO votes.

So smug in their relationship with the MSM that they can get away with rampant obvious fraud. They aren't interested even slightly in covering it up this cycle.
 
379Boldwin
      ID: 361012125
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 09:13
Never happens, ya know.





Entry removed by Facebook employee.
 
380DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 09:19
Cool, charge him with a crime then, or shut the hell up.
 
381Mith
      ID: 98342014
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 09:31
Rabid right wing hate-media duped once again by poorly crafted satire.
That post went viral, with a number of conservative web sites linking to archived images of the post and pointing to it as evidence of voter fraud.

An investigator with the state Board of Elections spoke with Turner, who is "69 and not computer savvy." The investigator went on to report, "The posting was meant as a joke for his daughter only. He seems very distraught and has retained an attorney to handle the media. He has talked with the Pine Knoll Shores police chief due to threats."

A quick check of early voting data maintained by the state Board of Elections shows that Turner hasn't voted yet in his home town. It's unclear how he might have endeavored to vote in other locations, but state board data doesn't seem to provide any evidence that he has voted elsewhere, including Durham.
 
382DWetzel
      ID: 25740420
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 09:34
That lack of evidence is all they need to prove the fraud goes to the highest levels of government, dude!
 
383Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 09:56
Baldwin isn't interested in political discussion.

he's interested in dropping bombs that are easily diffused, then running off like a scared child, without feeling the need to have any responsibility for what he posts.

this is a discussion board Baldwin. either discuss, or leave (like you said you were doing a few days ago), and perhaps start a blog.
 
384Boldwin
      ID: 361012125
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 10:34
Never has the phrase, 'I was only joking'. been used so disingenuously.
 
385Boldwin
      ID: 361012125
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 10:50
Count observers make it obvious Alan West is being jobbed.
“We are not getting to observe the vote count,” he said. Mr. Shapiro has been overseeing the process at the Riveria Beach vote tabulation center. Temporary workers are helping the local staff oversee the count of absentee ballots, those damaged by voting machines, and ballots in which the three pages have become separated. They are making new ballots to replace the damaged ones, and are required to mark them with the same votes. Florida law allows observers to be present but they are being blocked from making sure the ballots are marked accurately.
A physical barrier had been erected making it impossible for the observers to see what was going on. After repeated objections, the observers were allowed to stand behind the people reproducing the ballots. But then the ballot workers blocked their view. “Half of the people reproducing the ballots are crowding together,” Mr. Shapiro said, “to make it impossible for anyone to see what they are doing.” He added that “there is a sense that since they spend so much time obstructing our view they are not reproducing [the ballots] correctly.”
An elderly man who stood up to try to get a better look at the ballots was ordered to sit down. When he asked why, Palm Beach County Elections Supervisor Susan Bucher called a sheriff’s deputy to have him escorted out of the building. Team West volunteer Ellen Snyder has also faced the wrath of the supervisory staff. “They screamed at me twice” for asking questions she said, and threatened to have her removed.
Critical questions are also being raised about the estimated 8,000 military absentee ballots, These ballots could decide the election but were only picked up on Wednesday. They are being counted in an area that is off-limits to observers, but no explanation has been given why. Unlike the damaged ballots, the military ballots are not being reproduced but only counted. Yet from a distance Ms. Snyder saw a worker marking them. When she tried to bring this to the attention Mrs. Bucher’s assistant she was ignored. Another observer saw four military ballots in a row being peremptorily invalidated with no explanation. When Ms. Snyder tried to ask Mrs. Bucher a question about what was happening “she looked like she wanted to spit she was so mad. She is very hostile.”
Those military ballots alone mean he won, had they been counted.

The military vote is wildly in favor of Alan West, and routinely break down 2/3 republican even when the candidate isn't a hero to the military. That's the wining margin right there, but the observers aren't even allowed in the same room as the military ballot count and the election officials are rabidly democrat.
 
386Pancho Villa
      ID: 59645318
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 11:05
In response to #378 from the MSM Philadelphia Inquirer

In the entire 28th Ward, Romney received only 34 votes to Obama's 5,920.

Although voter registration lists, which often contain outdated information, show 12 Republicans live in the ward's third division, The Inquirer was unable to find any of them by calling or visiting their homes.

Four of the registered Republicans no longer lived there; four others didn't answer their doors. City Board of Elections registration data say a registered Republican used to live at 25th and York Streets, but none of the neighbors across the street Friday knew him. Cathy Santos, 56, founder of the National Alliance of Women Veterans, had one theory: "We ran him out of town!" she said and laughed.

James Norris, 19, who lives down the street, is listed as a Republican in city data. But he said he's a Democrat and voted for Obama because he thinks the president will help the middle class.

A few blocks away, Eric Sapp, a 42-year-old chef, looked skeptical when told that city data had him listed as a registered Republican. "I got to check on that," said Sapp, who voted for Obama.


So smug in their relationship with the MSM that they can get away with rampant obvious fraud. They aren't interested even slightly in covering it up this cycle.- Boldwin

It appears the MSM, in this case, has and is looking into what seems to be somewhat of an anomaly in the vote count, although calling it rampant obvious fraud is irresponsible and premature, given that the Inquirer is attempting to find a Romney voter in those wards. I would be interested is seeing a non-MSM entity, who supports the rampant obvious fraud claim, doing the real journalism necessary to support the claim. I couldn't find one.

I was curious what kind of percentage Romney garnered in some of Utah's rural counties, and settled on Uintah, where my old buddy Steve Evans owns a couple radio stations, including a news/talk featuring Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.

Uintah County Results

Romney - 89.74%
Obama - 8.63%

26 precincts in Uintah County, I wouldn't be suprised if a number of them didn't vote 100% for Romney. Never seen a black person in Vernal, but there might be a handful. There's a Hispanic population and Native American, as well as some environmental activists, mostly river guides on the Green River. But given the overall demographics, Romney's dominance is not suprising in the least. Given the demographics in those Philadelphia wards(94% black), Obama's dominance isn't suprising either. And, according to the Inquirer, the zero votes for Romney are unofficial vote tallies. It's possible, when the tally becomes official, the Romney might get 5 or 6 votes. If they're out there, the MSM Philadelphia Inquirer is trying to find you.
 
387Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 11:57
and routinely break down 2/3 republican

In 2008 Barack Obama won the military vote. And there is some evidence that money donated by active military broke down about even between Obama and Romney this last election. There is no evidence at all that Allen West won even a majority of military ballots, let alone enough to overcome such a very large deficit.

What we are seeing is the outrage of having a series of closely held political assumptions being publicly exploded.
 
388Tree
      ID: 571061211
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:12
Never has the phrase, 'I was only joking'. been used so disingenuously.

then back up your argument. i'm not the best poster here, but my 328 and 359 thoroughly debunk their related posts by you.

you have no interest in political discourse, because even the posters here who you constantly belittle take you to task for your lack of facts, and you have no response.
 
389Tree
      ID: 571061211
      Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 12:32
following up on 586, i got curious about some of the precincts in Tarrant County - where i live - which is traditionally a very heavy republican county.

in recent years, there are large pockets of left-leaning neighborhoods that have sprung up. in some of them, you see numbers like 1,200+ votes for Obama, 150 for Romney; 812 for Obama, 8 for Romney; 841 for Obama, 11 for Romney; 1372 for Obama, 8 for Romney; and so on.

similar numbers happened the other way. these things happen. this isn't an indication of fraud, but rather, similar people living in similar neighborhoods.
 
390sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Nov 13, 2012, 17:19
Maricopa county fraud
 
391Boldwin
      ID: 391032182
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 11:55
The partial recount of early votes in Alan West' race has begun and we await result. Box of uncounted votes on shelf in supervisor's office. Guy in the recount area in Obama shirt.

Like I said, we gotta overcome an 8% fraud disadvantage just to come in even. I had guessed it was a 2% disadvantage before the election. They upped their game.

Results in ten minutes.
 
392Boldwin
      ID: 391032182
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 12:02
Here's the typical guy recounting Alan West's ballots.



Typical union thug. Sorta guy who like to throw around the term fatcat.
 
393Boldwin
      ID: 391032182
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 12:09
Right at noon they 'couldn't get the very last card to read'. Rumor is this put them over the time limit for the recount and forces them to certify the Original count.
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 391032182
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 12:34
That's just totally sadistic. Take your time with the recount, bend the last card, oops, sorry, card won't read, missed deadline by one card. You lose.

This is beyond fraud. This is just telling people to forget the system. It will never work for you again. We count any way we feel like it from now on.
 
395sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 12:58
Now B, you know how we felt, when Gore won the popular vote back in 2000.
 
396Tree
      ID: 57842011
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 14:28
Here's the typical guy recounting Alan West's ballots.

you have any source and proof for this photo? or just another one of your lies?

Rumor is this put them over the time limit for the recount and forces them to certify the Original count.

this is you again, portraying rumor as fact. you aren't interested in the truth, just some rumor that may or may not back up some point you're trying to make.
 
397Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Nov 18, 2012, 15:51
There is no proof. There never was. Only anger that their version of America (which never really existed) seems to be slipping away and they are powerless to stop it.
 
398Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 16:36
Scott Walker now wants to get rid of same-day voter registration.
 
399sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 16:48
anything to reduce the number of voters.
 
400sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Nov 21, 2012, 17:01
seems to me, the thing to do, the proper solution, would be to introduce MORE voting stations. (more facilities at which votes can be cast. This would 'dilute' the number voting at any given locale)
 
401Boldwin
      ID: 2010382210
      Thu, Nov 22, 2012, 11:52
Absolutely. Give dead voters even more leverage in the system.
 
402sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Thu, Nov 22, 2012, 12:01
Proof Boldwin, that such a thing occurs with any frequency at all.....or quit with the BS allegations. And yes, it should be easier t exercise your civil rights, than to drive a car.(Which FTR, is NOT a right in any state)
 
403Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Thu, Nov 22, 2012, 13:59
I guess he thought that Walker cited fraud as a reason for the change (which, of course, he didn't--the partisans can only hold back reality so long). Time to take away the "voter fraud!" candy stick the GOP has been using to reduce the number of voters.
 
404Boldwin
      ID: 2010382210
      Thu, Nov 22, 2012, 16:04
Why have just 68 Philadelphia precincts voting 100% Obama when Mr. Itchy fingers Skull-N-Bones could be voting in twice as many?
 
405PV in Austin
      ID: 1010151016
      Thu, Nov 22, 2012, 18:00
Has any Romney voter in those Philly precincts come forward yet?
 
406Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Thu, Nov 22, 2012, 18:50
There are a number of deep south precincts where Obama got zero votes himself.

The Philly thing reminds me of the Fox-generated hubbub over the New Black Panthers.
 
407Boldwin
      ID: 71035232
      Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 03:42
The Philly thing reminds me of the Fox-generated hubbub over the New Black Panthers.

For which Holder and many others should be unemployed over for dereliction of duty.
 
408Tree
      ID: 2510132311
      Fri, Nov 23, 2012, 12:13
As old white men like Baldwin lose power, they cry louder.

It's pretty funny to read all the crazy allegations which have no basis in reality, and are all over the map...
 
409sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 16:07
Jim Greer, Ex-Florida GOP Chair, Claims Republican Voting Laws Focused On Suppression, Racism

Jim Greer, the former head of the Florida Republican Party, recently claimed that a law shortening the early voting period in the state was deliberately designed to suppress voting among groups that tend to support Democratic candidates, the Palm Beach Post reports.

“The Republican Party, the strategists, the consultants, they firmly believe that early voting is bad for Republican Party candidates,” Greer told the Post. “It’s done for one reason and one reason only...‘We’ve got to cut down on early voting because early voting is not good for us.’"
 
410Seattle Zen
      ID: 3310162612
      Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 18:15
Ah, yes, Jim Greer, thee of the six pending felonies.

Florida GOP sure can pick some winners!
 
411Boldwin
      ID: 44100266
      Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 18:33
Democrats should not be throwing stones in that glass house.
 
412sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 18:34
lmao
 
413Tree
      ID: 3710342616
      Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 20:59
Democrats should not be throwing stones in that glass house.


please see post 352. and then, post 359.

and stomping up and down with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears doesn't change the truth.

you didn't have the guts to respond then, and i highly doubt you will now.
 
414Boldwin
      ID: 44100266
      Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 00:37
We aren't having a discussion, Tree. How has it escaped your notice that no one wants to see you and I interact?
 
415Tree
      ID: 2510132311
      Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 01:32
Because you're incapable of doing it without resorting to childish insults?

352. 359. Stop making up excuses.

Man up, or tuck your tail again and skulk away.
 
418Boldwin
      ID: 280241211
      Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 13:50
 
419Tree
      ID: 410531212
      Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 13:53
if it wasn't for suckers, WND wouldn't exist. they're also good for comedy.
 
420Boldwin
      ID: 2446204
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 05:43
The lawless administration was so determined to get every last possible illegal vote and use every last lever they had to abuse their political enemies that True the Vote was harrassed by the FBI, OSHA and the ATF.
Her group does not advocate for particular parties or candidates but just for fair elections at all levels. The group obviously is a huge threat to Barack Obama and Democrats.

Engelbrecht and her organization were harassed by the Obama IRS for months. The Obama IRS wanted to know Facebook posts, tweets and where Catherine intended to speak. That was just one round. Engelbrecht said she was also harassed by the FBI, OSHA and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) who checked her gun safe.

Catherine Engelbrecht of True The Vote on The Huckabee Program on FOX 5 18 2013 from Wetumpka Tea Party on Vimeo.

 
421Boldwin
      ID: 2446204
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 05:45
Someone explain to me why Nixon's 'Enemies List' [who weren't even harrasssed] was such a big freaking impeachable offense?
 
422Tree
      ID: 564211423
      Mon, May 20, 2013, 10:39
Someone explain to me why Nixon's 'Enemies List' [who weren't even harrasssed] was such a big freaking impeachable offense?

if you believe that's the reason he was about to be impeached, then you need to go back and read your history books. (then again, you've re-invented history repeatedly on these boards, so why would what actually happened matter to you?)
 
423Boldwin
      ID: 354382912
      Wed, May 29, 2013, 19:47
Someone put Sarge under supervision for this one.

Vote fraud alert: One out of five registered Ohio voters is bogus - Columbus Dispatch via Human Events
 
424Boldwin
      ID: 354382912
      Wed, May 29, 2013, 19:49
And no, Sarge. They don't mean there is just one fraudulent voter registered.
 
425Tree
      ID: 204302911
      Wed, May 29, 2013, 20:05
They don't mean there is just one fraudulent voter registered.

they don't know whether it's 1, 100, or 1000.

in fact, if one actually reads the the original Columbus Dispatch article FROM LAST SEPTEMBER , it's not so much as fraud as it is a lack of housekeeping:

...national-elections expert Doug Chapin, director of the Program for Excellence in Election Administration at the University of Minnesota, had kinder words for (Ohio Secretary of State Jon) Husted, noting that many states are struggling with fundamental voting questions this year.

“The fact that you’ve got a large number of people marked as inactive … is not unusual,” Chapin said.

Under current federal law, elections officials cannot remove an inactive voter unless they can present prima facie evidence that he or she is no longer eligible, Chapin explained....

...In February, the Pew Center on the States released a study called Inaccurate, Costly, and Inefficient showing that about 24 million U.S. voter registrations were no longer valid or had significant inaccuracies.

The research found: more than 1.8 million dead people listed as voters; about 2.75 million with voter registrations in more than one state; and about 12 million voter records with incorrect addresses, meaning either the voters moved or errors in the information make it unlikely any mailings can reach them.

The latter category is where you’ll find most of Ohio’s 1.6 million inactive voters.


those are important things to note. while fraud may exist, the implication of the ORIGINAL linked article (also from last September) is that the fraud is much more wide spread - at 20 percent. this isn't likely. anything even close to that isn't likely.
 
427Boldwin
      ID: 94103017
      Thu, May 30, 2013, 18:13
There is a reason Dems go postal whenever it is proposed to clean it up.
 
428Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Thu, May 30, 2013, 18:20
#425: Lets not encourage the crazies by calling them fraud at all. They are not, nor ever were, fraudulent registrations. They are inactive registrations.

Husted: "Common sense says that the odds of voter fraud increase the longer these ineligible voters are allowed to populate our rolls.” Maybe, maybe not. He offers no evidence either way.

What he doesn't say is that actual inactive voters are voting illegally. And that is the question to be asked.
 
429Tree
      ID: 564173012
      Thu, May 30, 2013, 18:20
yep. 425 addresses that.
 
430sarge33rd
      ID: 4609710
      Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 16:08
SC Investogation, yields ZERO cases of voter identity fraud


"We just recently learned that there are over 900 individuals who had died before the election (and had voted) and at least 600 of those individuals had died way outside the window that an absentee ballot could have been sent, so we know for a fact that there are deceased people whose identities are being used in elections in South Carolina."

-- South Carolina Attorney General Mark Wilson, appearing on Fox News


Claimed the Republican State Atty Gen.

The truth?

The South Carolina Law Enforcement Division has now been completed that investigation, although it took an open-records request by the Columbia Free Times to get it released to the public. The investigation found that the 953 alleged incidents did not occur in 2010, as had been claimed, but instead were the accumulated total of elections dating back to 2005. Law enforcement officials investigated a representative sample of more than 200 of those 953 alleged "zombie voters," and it found that in every single case, the allegation of dead people voting was in fact -- in actual fact -- a case of clerical errors, scanning errors, incorrect information in government databases, etc.
 
431Perm Dude
      ID: 24625213
      Tue, Jul 09, 2013, 18:56
Great find, sarge!

For a party which used to pride itself on adhering to facts and reality over emotional responses to issues, they have morphed into what they believe the Democrats to have been, at their worst.

Probably because they continue to believe that somehow those Democrats got away with something.
 
432Perm Dude
      ID: 41661813
      Mon, Jul 22, 2013, 14:05
What if we demanded Ted Cruz' papers?

A solid piece on what would happen if we held Ted Cruz to the same standard he wants to hold everyone else to.
 
433sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 19:34
REAL voter fraud

In the midst of his 2012 GOP primary campaign for a Massachusetts state House seat, Jack Villamaino changed the party affiliation of nearly 300 people in his town of East Longmeadow. Days later, the same number of absentee ballot requests were dropped off at the town clerk’s office, a list that was almost a “name-for-name match” for those whose registration information Villamaino had altered.
 
434Tree
      ID: 59740109
      Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 10:41
it's funny to see the usual suspects not respond to 432. unsurprisingly, i might add.
 
435sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Fri, Aug 16, 2013, 15:40
CO Sec of State claims of voter fraud...baseless

Last month, Secretary of State Scott Gessler (R) had announced that 155 possibly illegal voters went to the polls in the November 2012 elections -- out of more than 3,050,578 voters in Colorado.

Now a review by Boulder County's top prosecutor has found that all 17 instances of allegedly fraudulent voters in his county were, in fact, verifiable U.S. citizens, The Boulder Daily Camera reported Wednesday.

"Local governments and county clerks do a really good job regulating the integrity of elections, and I'll stand by that record any day of the week," said Stan Garnett (D), Boulder County's district attorney. "We don't need state officials sending us on wild goose chases for political reasons."


Groundless, baseless, LIES and FEAR MONGERING. The two favored tools of todays GOP.
 
436sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 18:39
Florida’s Fraudulent Voting Witch Hunt Produces a “Shocking” Number of Cases — All Republican

Upon concluding their investigation, they reported a staggering—two cases of voter registration fraud.

Yes, after several months of investigation following the 2012 elections, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement found a whopping two cases of actual voter registration fraud.


Voter REGISTRATION fraud. IDs, would not have prevented this. The GOP claims, have been proven false in PA, SC and now FL. So when, will they quit making them?
 
437sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Sun, Sep 08, 2013, 02:40
bit of a "technical correction" to 436.

The GOP talking points have been investigated and proven baseless in 3 states, FL, SC and CO; and admitted to be without basis in PA, not investigated and proven false in PA.
 
438Boldwin
      ID: 55827817
      Sun, Sep 08, 2013, 18:29
If you ever are unemployed the Chicago machine could use a PR guy.
 
439sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Sun, Sep 08, 2013, 19:17
Facts are facts B, as much as you dislike them. Simply put it is this: Your constant harping about Voter Fraud? Its baseless, groundless, without merit, and takes resources away form real problems.

That is the simple truth of it, all of your blind, partisan horseshit aside.
 
440Perm Dude
      ID: 417342923
      Thu, Sep 26, 2013, 16:38
For some balance.

I know nothing of the Working Family Party--sounds like a regional party of some sort, with lots of overlap with Democrats.
 
441sarge33rd
      ID: 3871221
      Mon, Nov 04, 2013, 00:13
TX restrictive Voter ID Law, snags former Speaker of the House

Former U.S. Speaker of the House Jim Wright (D-Texas) tried to get a voter identification card at a Texas Department of Public Safety office on Saturday.

But the only photo identification cards Wright has -- an expired Texas driver's license and a Texas Christian University faculty identification card -- do not satisfy the requirements of the state's restrictive vote identification law, passed in 2011. Wright is 90 years old.

“I earnestly hope these unduly stringent requirements on voters won’t dramatically reduce the number of people who vote,” Wright told the Star-Telegram on Saturday. “I think they will reduce the number to some extent.”

According to the Star-Telegram, Wright will return to the office Monday to get a Texas personal identification card with a certified copy of his birth certificate.

If Wright successfully obtains a personal ID card on Monday, he will be able to vote on Tuesday. But his assistant, Norma Ritchson, is worried other elderly citizens will face obstacles when trying to vote.

“I’ve been thinking about the people who are in retirement homes,” Ritchson said. “I’ve read that this is the lowest early voter turnout in a long time and I wonder if this [ID requirement] is the cause. We’ve tried so hard to make voting easy, and now the Texas Legislature has made it harder by making you have a photo ID.”


It was never about preventing fraud. It has and is, ONLY about, reducing voter turnout. Particularly, amongst those of limited resources.
 
442Seattle Zen
      ID: 4811181319
      Mon, Nov 04, 2013, 00:44
Post 441 is spot on. There are many law abiding citizens who don't have photo IDs simply because they don't need them or getting a certified birth certificate is cost prohibitive. They must be allowed to vote.
 
443Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Mon, Nov 04, 2013, 13:13
Election day tomorrow. The Republicans are hoping we won't vote. Let's surprise them.

If 2010 taught us anything, it is that local and state elections matter. Let's take back some seats.
 
444C1-NRB
      ID: 371011423
      Tue, Nov 05, 2013, 00:12
“I’ve been thinking about the people who are in retirement homes,” Ritchson said. “I’ve read that this is the lowest early voter turnout in a long time and I wonder if this [ID requirement] is the cause. We’ve tried so hard to make voting easy, and now the Texas Legislature has made it harder by making you have a photo ID.”

My polling place is a retirement center.

The Republicans are hoping we won't vote.

The mother-in-law of a former president lives there and it is less than a mile from a school named after his father, so I don't think their "plan" is working out too well in this case.

And now you all know where I live- within a few blocks, anyway.
 
445Boldwin
      ID: 43540233
      Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 10:40
Remember most laws explicitly state you can't even check for illegal status...
King’s activist group was named for Dustin Inman, a 16-year-old American boy killed by an illegal alien in a traffic crash on Father’s Day weekend in 2000.

Dustin was on his way to a weekend of fishing in the North Georgia mountains with his parents.

Despite being in the U.S. illegally, the driver of the car that killed Dustin, Gonzalo Harrell-Gonzalez, was able to obtain a valid North Carolina driver’s license using his Mexican birth certificate and a Mexican Matricula Consular ID card. - WND
I seriously doubt even voter ID will 'true the vote' because one party doesn't want it to and reflects that in the language of the law. We have laws right now demanding audits of how clean states' voter rolls are and one party resists those efforts, and successfully most of the time. We are living in a post-legal unlawful era. Thunderdome here we come.
 
446Tree
      ID: 438482411
      Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 20:21
Despite being in the U.S. illegally, Gonzalo Harrell-Gonzalez, was able to obtain a valid North Carolina driver’s license using his Mexican birth certificate and a Mexican Matricula Consular ID card.

ummm. good. i'd rather a driver be licensed, than unlicensed. unless you're advocating a free for all, allowing people to drive without licensing.
 
447sarge33rd
      ID: 505502410
      Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 11:52
REAL vote fraud

Wisconsin Republican donor busted for voting 5 times in Gov. Scott Walker’s recall election

A Wisconsin insurance executive and Republican donor was charged with voting illegally more than a dozen times in four elections.

The Journal-Sentinel reported that 50-year-old Robert Monroe was caught as a result of an investigation into a possible illegal voting by his son in Waukesha County. But after his son denied requesting an absentee ballot from his father’s address in Shorewood, suspicion turned to Monroe.

A complaint claimed that Monroe voted five times in Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) recalled election. He also was accused of voting illegally in a 2011 Wisconsin Supreme Court election, a 2012 primary, and the 2012 presidential election.
 
448Boldwin
      ID: 85582420
      Tue, Jun 24, 2014, 22:15
Yeah, yeah, it's only illegal if a republican does it.
 
449sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Thu, Jun 26, 2014, 01:17
no, its apparently happening primarily BY Republicans AND it still isnt voter IMPERSONATION fraud.
 
450Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Thu, Jun 26, 2014, 10:01
Ironic that the voter fraud witch hunts are seemingly only catching Republicans.

Next up: A massive GOP effort to find out exactly who is watching porn...
 
451Gator
      ID: 13521231
      Thu, Jun 26, 2014, 13:59
The left knows it is more guilty of voter fraud and that is why they are against picture ID but Mississippi tried it and it worked.
photo ID
Finding one republican committing voter fraud does not compare to ACORN's massive voter fraud.
 
452Perm Dude
      ID: 586411123
      Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 21:26
Maybe the reason the GOP is so certain voter fraud exists is because they engage in it so much.
 
453Perm Dude
      ID: 586411123
      Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 21:27
As previously noted here, and in many other places, what happened with ACORN wasn't vote fraud. It was voter registration fraud and it was perpetrated on ACORN, not by them.

There is no actual record of "Mickey Mouse" or any other fake names from those registrations actually voting. None.
 
454sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Aug 16, 2014, 00:25
REAL voter fraud---->Jack Villamaino, Former GOP Candidate, Gets 4 Months In Jail For Felony Voter Fraud
 
455Bean
      ID: 5292191
      Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 14:29
Ensuring that only of age US Citizens get exactly one vote is vitally important. Why SOME Democrats feel there is aproblem with checking IDs defies logic.

If you want to vote, then get an ID and bring it to the polls and quit this incessant whining BS.
 
456sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Mon, Aug 18, 2014, 10:12
because voter ID, solves a problem that does not exist. It ensures ONLY, that some registered voters, wont get to vote. Why SO MANY cant see the truth of it, boggles the mind.
 
457Bean
      ID: 5292191
      Mon, Aug 18, 2014, 14:23
Quit whining...over
 
458sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Mon, Aug 18, 2014, 22:17
? yep, you are confused...

lets look at it logically, shall we?

To "steal" the 2016 Presidential election, which states do you need to "turn"? Be specific.

Now, which precincts within those states will you need to turn AND how many fraudulent voters will you need in each precinct? Again, be VERY specific.

How many co-conspirators in the area of voter registration will you need, in order to get your indicated nr of fraudulent voters, on the voter rolls, in those precincts? AGAIN, you must be specific.

Now, how many buses, and drivers, will you need, in order to get those fraudulent voters into the right places, at the right times, in order to cast their fraudulent votes? Yep, you got it...be specific.

Finally, how many "recruiters" will you need, to gather the requisite nr of fraudulent voters in the first place? Stay specific.

Now, add allllll those nrs and tell me how many people you need to be part of your conspiracy.

Really?
 
459Khahan
      ID: 11759198
      Tue, Aug 19, 2014, 09:59
It ensures ONLY, that some registered voters, wont get to vote. Why SO MANY cant see the truth of it, boggles the mind.


Then implement it differently. Allow school IDs, drivers license, walkers license, make the voter registration itself involve a picture that goes on a voter id card that you get when you register.
Tie it in to social security numbers have a registration like that.

There are any number of ways to have a quick easy, non-intrusive, no-hassle, non-burdensome verification.
 
460sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Tue, Aug 19, 2014, 11:00
but that isnt what is being done, is it Khahan? In fact, NC specifically DISALLOWED certain current form of ID, disallowed some early registration and early voting, disallowed same day registration and voting.
 
462Khahan
      ID: 16341313
      Tue, Aug 19, 2014, 13:57
NC specifically DISALLOWED certain current form of ID

I am against that. I see no reason to make the process restrictive. The goal should be getting 1 vote per legal person. It should be an open process, easy to do and low hassle.

disallowed some early registration and early voting, disallowed same day registration and voting.
This I'm on the fence about. There are good reasons not to allow same day registration (excepting anybody who has their 18th birthday within say a month of the vote date). But there should be acceptable ways to counter those concerns.
 
463sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Wed, Aug 20, 2014, 12:28
we HAVE 1 vote per legal person. That is the whole point khahan. We ALREADY have th goal, without the restrictive laws.

Ddo we have voter REGISTRATION issues that need be addressed? Probably, but unless they result in illegal votes, and they by and large do not, then they are moot points. Tangents at best.

IDs prevent/detect ONLY 1 kind of voter fraud. They keep Billy from voting as Bobby. Thats it. And in the area of voter impersonation, ....it just isnt happening.
 
464Khahan
      ID: 527392110
      Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 11:42
Its just a check & balance sarge. Im surprised every time there is such fierce resistance from anybody against a simple check & balance system to ensure what we have in theory is whats happening in reality.

I'll say again I am against a lot of the overly restrictive rules and laws like the ones NC tried to pass. I just don't understand the opposition to a simple, easy, unobtrusive check & balance system.
 
465sarge33rd
      ID: 35521312
      Thu, Aug 21, 2014, 20:09
because it isnt so simple, nor is it unobtrusive. It has a cost attached to it, and Poll Taxes are unconstitutional.

TX closed DPS offices, making it necessary in some cases to travel 100 miles, to get a DL or State ID Card. Guess where they did that? Predominantly rural, low income, minority populated counties.

NC, has already been discussed.

You may say you are against parts of these laws, but they ARE parts and being put in place, deliberately. And have NOTHING to do with combating voter fraud, since impersonation fraud isnt happening in the first place.
 
466Bean
      ID: 5292191
      Fri, Aug 22, 2014, 10:53
Impersonation fraud isnt happening BECAUSE people believe that their identity will be challenged. Ask any kid who wanted to buy beer or cigarettes or snuck into a disco underage.

If you don't like the inconvenience of living in a rural community, move to the city and quit whining.

You can say that there is no fraud and therefore we need no ID check, but I can just as easily say there is no discrimination and therefore we need no law change. Spend you time helping those who dont have the credential to vote to get one. And quit whining.
 
467sarge33rd
      ID: 227242217
      Fri, Aug 22, 2014, 18:24
you want an applicable comparative?

Lets pass a law, making it a felony to walk your dog on Mars on a Tue evening.

It isnt happening. It isnt happening, because there is no point to it. Your attempting to deprive another of their civil right to vote, is a perfectly valid reason for me to stand and shout at the top of my lungs, and it has nothing at all to do with whining.
 
468Perm Dude
      ID: 586411123
      Fri, Aug 22, 2014, 19:04
As I've said before, when it comes to clear constitutional rights, the state should be very cautious in doing things which mitigate the ability of people to engage in those rights, particularly in trying to solve problems which are, at best, very minor.

This applies to guns as well as voting, in my book.
 
469Bean
      ID: 5292191
      Sun, Aug 24, 2014, 18:59
<468> The NRA is too entrenched in our culture to allow us to control guns.

In my estimation urban America sees the need for gun control while rural America wants to be able to hunt and doesn't want to be told what weapon is appropriate. At one extreme are the nutcases who want all guns banned, and at the other are the nutcases that want to conceal weapons and carry assault rifles.

I have a 22 in my home to chase off the coyotes who want to eat my pets and the deer who want to eat my garden. It's my only weapon. My weapon is stored in a different place, than my ammo, and the chamber is always cleared before storage. My home security policy is to not keep anything in the house worth stealing, and I wont need a weapon to defend my assets (a 22 is little more than a toy, though, like a knife it is capable of killing, knives are still legal aren't they?). My security policy outside the home is dont go into neighborhoods where you need to carry a weapon to defend yourself.

I just hope all my neighbors see it the same way, and there aren't any nut cases nearby.
 
470sarge33rd
      ID: 390471112
      Sat, Oct 04, 2014, 01:08
Voter fraud? ...No...Voter REGISTRATION fraud and maybe voting fraud

and btw, the fraudster? GOP candidate for Arkansas AG. Really folks, you cant make this shit up.
 
471Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Sat, Jul 18, 2015, 06:19
More than half of new driver´s licenses
go to immigrants in U.S. illegally.


The California DMV reported that it has received about 687,000 driver's license applications from immigrants who are in the country illegally and they are damn happy about this successful implementation of AB 60, “The DMV was determined to develop a process that would not only meet the stringent requirements of this new law, but also the unique needs of our newly expanded customer base.”

See L.A.Times article.

Or you can listen to Sarge who would have you believe lawyers somewhere have proven vote fraud is barely above the teens and anyone who wants voter ID has no valid reason and is merely a racist desperate to keep all those brown people from voting.

All 70% of your friends and neighbors.

Yes Virginia, overloading a weak electoral system with fraud was a very explicit area of focus for marxist radicals out to sabotage the country.
 
472Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Sat, Jul 18, 2015, 11:43
While you were focused on the 'gay marriage' and the 'we can't tell the difference between state run and not state run' decisions, you most likely missed this one...

The 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Kansas cannot require proof-of-citizenship documents from prospective voters. The Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal and let the decision stand.

This is what you get when one party insists on corrupted SCOTUS nominees.
 
473Tree
      ID: 161036918
      Sun, Jul 19, 2015, 23:10
it's totally unnecessary.

by law, you cannot vote if you're not a citizen. it's ALREADY a law.
 
474Boldwin
      ID: 49572022
      Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 00:24
Which by law Kansas [or any state by extention] is not allowed to enforce.
 
475Boldwin
      ID: 2711516
      Wed, Oct 07, 2015, 03:40
Even by Obama's phony new way of counting the numbers the truth is abundantly evident that Obama intended to flood the country with illegals all along and prevent deportations by hobbling ICE.

Libs who bought and spread the lie Obama had increased deportations are exposed as gullible tools or worse.

This is how we know pleas for amnesty are just a ratchet to increase the flow and promises of future border security in trade for amnesty are just a scam.
 
476biliruben
      ID: 229341622
      Wed, Oct 07, 2015, 08:35
Uh huh. Even the likely cooked NR numbers are still higher than almost all of the Bush Era. And it's also pretty hard to deport someone when they stop bothering to come over.
 
477bibA
      ID: 275441414
      Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 14:42
nope