Forum: pol
Page 2137
Subject: Bush Seeks Funds for Abstinence Education


  Posted by: Tree - [510231619] Thu, Nov 25, 2004, 22:13

WASHINGTON - President Bush's re-election insures that more federal money will flow to abstinence education that precludes discussion of birth control, even as the administration awaits evidence that the approach gets kids to refrain from sex.

greeeeeeeeat......let's not teach kids about safe sex AND attempt to overturn Roe v Wade...
 
2sarge33rd
      ID: 491051233
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 08:32
I'm in favor of abstinence education Tree. In ADDITION to and not in lieu of, contraceptive education.
 
3Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 08:39
I certainly agree. It's about giving kids the tools to deal with things.
 
4Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 144192417
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 08:40
Dear Lord we're all in agreement. Abstinence Education can be a great tool coupled with safe sex ed.
 
5sarge33rd
      ID: 491051233
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 08:55
hmmmmmmmm appears as if perhaps hell hath frozen over? ;)
 
6sarge33rd
      ID: 491051233
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 09:01
from the aboce link;

"We don't need a study, if I remember my biology correctly, to show us that those people who are sexually abstinent have a zero chance of becoming pregnant or getting someone pregnant or contracting a sexually transmitted disease," said Wade Horn, the assistant secretary of Health and Human Services (news - web sites) in charge of federal abstinence funding.

While the statement itself is patently true, it ignores the reality of teenage behavior. The study, is not to determine if abstinence prevents the spread of STD's and/or pregnancy, but to determine if the message of abstinence is penetrating the target audience and impacting their collective behaviors.

IMHO, common sense dictates that abstinence education will in fact reach and impact on some members of the teenage audience. Others however, will simply scoff at the message and essentially ignore it. To reach those folks, taakes a different message. To intentionally ignore that other message and delete it from presentation, is to ignore a large segment of our teens.

Compare it to a manufacturer of product "X". They will produce and run more than one commercial at a time. Knowing that some in the target market will respond to message "A", they also realize that it will require message "B" to reach others and perhaps message "C" to reach yet others.
 
7Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 144192417
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 09:18
Sarge: "hmmmmmmmm appears as if perhaps hell hath frozen over? ;)"

Indeed it has....indeed it has. :)

Benefits Of Both

"Comprehensive sexual education teaches both the benefits of abstinence and, for students who choose to be sexually active, safe-sex measures.

Jarrett said studies show that the comprehensive approach, which is used in much of the United States and many other countries, is more effective than abstinence-only education at preventing teen pregnancy and the contraction of sexually transmitted diseases.

One piece of evidence Jarrett pointed to was a study conducted by Advocates for Youth, an organization dedicated to creating programs and advocating policies that help young people make informed decisions about their sexual health.

The study reported that Germany, France and the Netherlands had lower rates of abortion, teen pregnancy and STDs because of the societal openness in these nations in dealing with sexuality and government policies that provide easy access to sexual health information and services.

Wilcox said abstinence-only policies fail to take into account cultural realities about sex.

“The main problem I have with this policy is that it isn’t in touch with how most of the kids are,” Wilcox said. “Sex sells and they see it constantly. And kids are going to have sex. Without legislating morality and censoring ludicrous amounts of media, I don’t see how it can be effective.”"
 
8Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 10:10
The Federal Goverment has no business being in the business of Abstinence Education, Contraception Education or any kind of sex education.

Congress last weekend included more than $131 million for abstinence programs in a $388 billion spending bill, an increase of $30 million but about $100 million less than Bush requested

I can't think of a better example of how the government wastes millions of dollars on things that have no constitutional basis.

The job of government is to provide infrastructure such as roads and bridges and provide for the common defense(not offense).

As a parent, I am perfectly capable of telling my daughter and son about the birds and the bees. I don't need my tax dollars going to some high-priced Madison Avenue advertising firm to create a high-priced campaign for over-priced media outlets like MTV. Media outlets are required to air a certain amount of public service messages at no charge. If the religious conservatives think this message is that important, let Pat Robertson donate the one hour of time at his 700 Club studios for the production and let a millionaire teen star like Hillary Duff donate an hour to voice the copy. For safe sex and birth control messages, take any of the federally funded PBS studios in the country to donate the production time and facilities and use an already paid federal employee to do the voice over, or have someone like Hillary Duff donate an hour for that message as well.
Instead, we'll have the J Walter Thompson; Foote,Cone and Belding; and Saatchi and Saatchis of the advertising world drooling over the prospect of this 9 figure contract, with their millionaire account executive, millionaire creative director and millionaire copy writer relieved that their summer home at the Hamptons will be safe for at least another year. In turn, they will make certain that that the most state-of-the-art production facilities(read expensive)will be utilized, and the air time they buy will be based on a CCP(cost per point or thousand)for the demo they buy, which is always a media outlets highest rate.
Don't believe me? When I was an advertising exec, two of my clients were the US Army and US Air Force.

It boggles the mind that $131 million($100 mil less than Bush wanted) can be spent to tell kids:

"If you don't have sex, you will not get pregnant(or get someone pregnant) and you will not get veneral disease."

I can do that for free.
 
9sarge33rd
      ID: 491051233
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 10:27
understood PV, but again the unfortunate reality is that too many parents WONT or DONT have that conversation/discussion with their kids.

I'm not advocating that the Govt act as a surrogate parent, but I think that helping to prevent the potential billions in cost of various welfare programs for 16-21 yr old single parents by investing millions in education....is a rather sound ideal. I simply disagree on making the message utterly one-sided.
 
10Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 10:47
investing millions in education

Well, I'd like to see how these "educational" funds are to be used. I can almost guarantee you that it is an "advertising" campaign.

Sarge, you, I, or anyone on this board could write the copy, or any federal employee already being paid for that matter.
These should be public service announcements, meaning they should air for free. The production should be done at any of hundreds of PBS facilities for free.

How else are you going to reach the kids that are most at risk? What makes anyone think that kids who ignored or skipped biology class are going to be susceptible to anything other than a statement from R Kelly, P Diddy or Snoop Dog, to whom the idea of abstinence from sex means the 8 hours a day they are asleep?
 
11sarge33rd
      ID: 491051233
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 11:06
I think PV, that at the root level, we are pretty much in agreement. It seems to really be only the more minute 'details' which we are debating.

My probolem with GWB's plan, is that it presents only 1 option...abstinence. I dont care really WHO does the speaking (though I'd agree that those who market directly to the youth would make for more effective spokespersons than would for ex James Earl Jones or a Governmental Department Secretary.). My concern is more that alternative processes and options be presented as well.
 
12Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 144192417
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 11:47
PV: "These should be public service announcements, meaning they should air for free. The production should be done at any of hundreds of PBS facilities for free."

Reality check, do you think MTV, Spike TV, or any other network teenagers watch will put out lame public service announcements during prime time when the young adults are watching? Too much lost revenue.

As far as public broadcasting, any kid that is watching something on PBS during primetime (choosing Nova over Monday Night RAW or Smallville) is probably not in the pursuit of getting any anyway. Good for them, that's their choice. What we need is effective multi-pronged advertising and programs that will help out the kids.

"I can't think of a better example of how the government wastes millions of dollars on things that have no constitutional basis."

You would rather have teenagers put added weight on an already strained system or their parents via increased health care activity?

This is a chance to be proactive and benefit not only kids (who are infinitely more important), but the "system" as well. I hate big government, but these are two programs (abstinence and safe sex ed) that are well worth the funding.

Sarge: "My probolem with GWB's plan, is that it presents only 1 option...abstinence."

That's probably due to a combination of political ideology along with balancing a system that already favors safe sex ed. A balanced approach is potentially more effective. I wouldn't want the government to try and "sell" either one. Just present each alternative equally and let the teenagers decide.
 
13Tree, out of town
      ID: 110202611
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 12:25
Reality check, do you think MTV, Spike TV, or any other network teenagers watch will put out lame public service announcements during prime time when the young adults are watching? Too much lost revenue.

have you been around for the last 15 years? PSAs involving safe sex and condom usage have been around that long.

I'm in favor of abstinence education Tree. In ADDITION to and not in lieu of, contraceptive education.

absolutely. unfortunately, the government doesn't seem to want both however.

 
14Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 12:45
CCP #12
As far as public broadcasting, any kid that is watching something on PBS during primetime (choosing Nova over Monday Night RAW or Smallville) is probably not in the pursuit of getting any anyway. Good for them, that's their choice. What we need is effective multi-pronged advertising and programs that will help out the kids.
Actually, I suggested that public broadcasting studios be used for production to save money, not that they be the vehicle to reach a 12-24 demographic. That would be MTV, owned by Viacom, recently fined millions for Howard Stern and other like shows. How about in lieu of those fines, MTV donate the airtime to run these sex education messages in prime time? They could do the same on other Viacom properties that target that demo.

As is, there are no national guidelines as to how these funds are to be used, only a mish mash of money pits that differ from community to community and state to state. For instance:



Virginity Pledge Programs

Seems to me that any teen taking a virginity pledge is right there with the NOVA watching teen.
Not exactly the at risk teens that should be targeted. I see it as a waste of taxpayer dollars that are going not only to ad agencies, but lengthy and inconclusive "studies", polling and agenda-driven moral watchdog groups that wouldn't know how to effectively get a message to an at-risk teen if they were in their own living room.
 
15Baldwin
      ID: 41103261
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 12:52
I have read studies that the DARE program actually increases drug use among those who take the program. I am not encouraged by any government role in teaching kids.
 
16leggestand
      Leader
      ID: 451036518
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 12:58
What's wrong with the money going to advertising campaigns? Now I am no economics major, but this would seem to be an injection into the national economy (in addition to a program to help adolescents).

The way I see it is this:

1. Government spends $131 million
2. If it is primarily used for advertising, then these firms who win the contracts create jobs and higher disposable income for their new and old employees.
3. These employees will spend their higher disposable income, which in turn creates jobs in service related companies. The people who get jobs at these service related companies now have a higher level of disposable income. This trickle down effect, in the end will create jobs (who knows how much, but I am sure it will create some).

In the end, we get job growth, which is what many people are complaining about not having. Proposing to provide abstinence education for free could possibly further educate adolescents, but force feeding them programs would likely be more beneficial. Plus, by doing abstinence programs for free, no jobs are created, and the people who complain about a sluggish economy are griping once again. It seems that the people that complain about a sluggish economy are the same people who think government spending on beneficial programs is a bad idea. It's like, no matter what, there is something to complain about.
 
17Tree, out of town
      ID: 110202611
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 13:13
As far as public broadcasting, any kid that is watching something on PBS during primetime (choosing Nova over Monday Night RAW or Smallville) is probably not in the pursuit of getting any anyway.

i meant to respond to this.

it's an awful example of stereotyping. it's like saying that a kid pursuing knowledge cannot also pursue tail, but a kid letting their brain rot with mindless television is surely gonna go out and get laid at every chance.

hormones are hormones. it doesn't discriminate in IQ. some kids want it. some kids don't. some kids get it. some kids don't.
 
18Matt S
      ID: 4165223
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 13:22
Bush can call this his "war on sex."

He can add it to the list of other American wars that are a waste of money and don't work.

Seriously though, telling a rebellious 14 or 15 year old not to do something is a great way for you to give them ammo to use against you when you don't buy them an xbox or take them shopping for an even lower cut pair of jeans.

Why do kids steal liquor or cigarettes from their parents when they are 12? Because they are not supposed to!!! A 12-16 year old kid hates being young and everything that you're "not allowed to do" that goes with it.

The entire american society is based on sex. Please don't tell me that an advertisement during "The OC" is going to detour a kid from wanting to have sex.

If you want kids to stop having sex, you have to somehow eliminate it's allure. Stop allowing girls to dress half-naked at school, stop feeding kids sex when they are watching sports (cheerleaders, WWE), and stop glorifying sex through the music that most of this generation's kids listen to (ie Pimp Daddy and his hoe train).

That is the only method that will have any success and it has a 0% chance of happening.

Matt S
 
19Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 144192417
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 13:34
Tree: "it's an awful example of stereotyping. it's like saying that a kid pursuing knowledge cannot also pursue tail, but a kid letting their brain rot with mindless television is surely gonna go out and get laid at every chance."

Oh spare me and quit grabbing straws. Of course there are kids who love to watch shows on The Carthaginian Economy and chase girls/guys at the same time. Just not too many I presume just based on a silly thing like ratings.

Popular shows on popular networks should be targeted because they are popular.

FWIW, I was one of those nerds in school who couldn't get enough of Nova specials on the Mars rover, the Roman Empire, Patton, the Civil War, and Ken Burns Baseball. I preferred the Anitques Road Show to Beverly Hills 90210 and all the other teenage crud. That didn't stop me from going after girls. Largely unsuccessfully until I hit the jackpot when I met my wife, but that's another thread. ;)

Leg: "It seems that the people that complain about a sluggish economy are the same people who think government spending on beneficial programs is a bad idea. It's like, no matter what, there is something to complain about."

Thank you.

Matt S. "Seriously though, telling a rebellious 14 or 15 year old not to do something is a great way for you to give them ammo to use against you when you don't buy them an xbox or take them shopping for an even lower cut pair of jeans."

If I (or any parent, which I am currently not) had the foresight to make a choice on whether or not I'd want to buy my daughter or son (for his girlfriend) an XBox or an abortion, the choice is a no brainer.
 
20sarge33rd
      ID: 491051233
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 18:03
I think Matt started to hit on a very valid point, then turned just shy of making it. :)

It's long been my experience, the fastest way to ensure your teenage kid goes after a beer...is to tell them they CANT have one. Ever parent a 6 yr old? Whats the FIRST thing they do upon going outside after you just told them, "You arent allowed to cross the street by yourself." ?

Now, I am most certainly NOT advocating that we tell the kids to go out and hump their damn fool brains out. (They'll do that on their own w/o our permission.) I do however believe, that it is best for our teenagers to know HOW to protect themselves against the spread of STD's and unintended teen-pregnancy. I had all of my daughters Doctors explain 'the pill' to them when they went for their very first gyno-exam. I also had the Dr reinforce that discussion at each subsequent exam AND gave the Dr permission to put the girls on the pill if he found evidence of sexual activity (or if the girls requested it) while instructing him NOT to tell me about it unless that particular daughter asked him to do so. I bought my son a few condoms, explained their use to him and told him that if he used them, he need not tell me unless he wanted to. BUT, told him that if I found out he was having sex and NOT using them, I'd kick his teenage a$$ from here to eternity. I used his own sisters as examples when discussing the troubles of teen pregnancy. "How would YOU feel if so-and-so at school got your sister (insert name here) pregnant? Do you think the brother of the girl your seeing is going to feel any differently? How do you think I would react and then think about how her Dad will react." That sort of thing. Trouble is....too many parents just refuse to openly engage in any meaningful dialogue along those lines.
 
21Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 144192417
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 19:09
Sarge: What's going on in this thread is indeed frightening. :)

"It's long been my experience, the fastest way to ensure your teenage kid goes after a beer...is to tell them they CANT have one."

That is exactly how my father handled things when it came to beer and cigarettes with my brother and me. If we were caught sneaking one of his Budweisers, he didn't drop the hammer, he just got mad that we took something of his without asking permission. At family functions, he didn't make a stink about any of that.

When my brother and I grew up to be teenagers and then adults, we never ran into problems with alcohol and we both avoid cigarettes like the plague.

"I do however believe, that it is best for our teenagers to know HOW to protect themselves against the spread of STD's and unintended teen-pregnancy."

Absolutely. I'd like to add that we need to give them ALL the tools necessary. The issue of teenage sex is enormous because of the huge potential negative consequences that can partially ruin lives. A fair and balanced mix of abstinence ed and safe sex ed is the only way to realistically talk to kids about it.

"Trouble is....too many parents just refuse to openly engage in any meaningful dialogue along those lines."

The problem is the culture in which we live. Either the parent doesn't care (most likely cause) or actually feels that whatever makes their kids happy is A-OK. This is a classic social situation where we most definitely need "big government" to get the word out to minors about the dangers of having sex so long as its done in a fair and balanced manner.
 
22sarge33rd
      ID: 4210352618
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 19:37
dammit CCP....quit agreeing with me before I figure something is seriously wrong here and seek psychiatric help. :)
 
23Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 19:39
It's the holidays. Wait until after the new year then we'll be back to normal.
 
24sarge33rd
      ID: 4210352618
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 20:04
'normal' is a relative term. (none of MY relatives mind you....but relative all the same.)
 
25Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 144192417
      Fri, Nov 26, 2004, 22:02
I learned some new "relative" terms after having fifteen of them over for Thanksgiving yesterday. I can see now why my mom would get PO'd after cleaning up after my brother and me.
 
26sarge33rd
      ID: 310202016
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 07:47
speaking of relatives;

several years (and 1 marriage) ago, we we're hosts for the family gathering over Thanksgiving. Come Sunday, my (then) wife's sis/husband and 2 kids were still at the house. I was getting a bit tired of fighting for bathroom time, so when I returned from the kitchen carrying a beer for me and one for Craig (bro-in-law), I said...

"I'm sorry Craig. I hadnt heard."

"Heard what Jim?"

"That your house burned down."

"Jim, my house didnt burn down."

"Then why the fvck are you still here? You live 7 whole gddmn miles away."



damn, was my (now) ex-wife pi$$ed off at me. :)
 
27Khahan
      ID: 2884979
      Mon, Nov 29, 2004, 09:15
How about in lieu of those fines, MTV donate the airtime to run these sex education messages in prime time? They could do the same on other Viacom properties that target that demo.

But Pancho, something like that would make too much sense. You can't expect our government to start making sense, can you?
 
28Baldwin
      ID: 351026306
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 07:26
So how does he get along with his new in-laws Katie? Heh ;>
 
29katietx
      ID: 2610442916
      Tue, Nov 30, 2004, 08:26
no in-laws to get along with Baldwin.
 
30Baldwin
      ID: 321123118
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 19:38
Ouch, you have no one left down the family tree? Or they just live so far away?
 
31sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 21:22
katie's an only child, and I'm currently staying with her only child.
 
32katietx
      ID: 2610442916
      Wed, Dec 01, 2004, 22:07
My son is the last of my direct-line family Baldwin. I do have a couple cousins, but we haven't had contact in many, many years.
 
33prefek
      ID: 3710302923
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 02:39
Found this article browsing the only kind of news I browse through, nowadays: odd news:

Abstinence Education's Little Snafu's
 
34sarge33rd
      ID: 101058297
      Thu, Dec 02, 2004, 07:56
...I don't think we should lie to our children about science,"...

and why wouldnt the administration fund something that does exactly that? Our President has shown a distinct disdain for any science which does not reinforce his personal beliefs and I still hold that this Administration has lied to the American people repeatedly regarding the Iraq scenario.
 
35Tree
      ID: 240392720
      Mon, Jan 31, 2005, 20:25
Texas Teens Increased Sex After Abstinence Program

HOUSTON (Reuters) - Abstinence-only sex education programs, a major plank in President Bush's education plan, have had no impact on teenagers' behavior in his home state of Texas, according to a new study.
 
36sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Mon, Jan 31, 2005, 22:14
One program technique has been to try to bolster students' self-esteem, based on the theory that self-confident teenagers would not have sex.


ummmmmm had I been a more self confident teen, I'd have gotten alot more than I did. ;)
 
37TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Mon, Jan 31, 2005, 22:22
That made me LOL, Sarge. I am glad I skimmed the whole thread before typing in what has already been said above. Many teens are going to have sex and need to be fully educated about it, not just on abstinence.
 
38sarge33rd
      ID: 19161911
      Wed, Feb 23, 2005, 10:07
yep, spend money telling kids not to have sex (when we all know the one thing you tell a teen NOT to do, is the first thing they are going to do), and get that money by slashing scientific research. Why not? Bush doesnt give a damn what sciene has to say anyhow;

Scientists feel stifled by Bush administration
 
39sarge33rd
      ID: 211281813
      Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 10:00
KS AG seeks clinic abortion records


IMHO, a clear abuse of power attempt by this politician
 
40Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 10:06
A sexual witch hunt, led by a guy with a history of seeking out such records, it appears.

I'm sure the guy thinks he's doing the right thing, but his lack of balance on privacy is alarming.
 
41Motley Crue
      ID: 421571610
      Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 10:19
So where do we see it winding up? I assume his agenda requires appealing against his inevitable court defeats up to the SCOTUS. What a jerk.

I suppose that's a sooty side effect of Bush's win in November. Bush has his "clear mandate", and now many of the religious conservative politicians (many of whom probably believe in the stuff) are going to ride those coattails and push their own pet projects. It's all John Kerry's fault.
 
42Boldwin
      ID: 1411237
      Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 11:37
I am 1000% behind someone finally looking into this. These holocaust administrators...and they truly are little Eichman's to use Churchill's phrase are guilty of...

  • murdering third trimester babies against the law...not that any abortion should be legal

  • covering over child abuse that results in pregnancy

    How anyone thinks those things have some privacy rights is beyond me.
  •  
    43Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 11:58
    Yeah, those people who feel that their complete medical records are private are just idiots, right?

    You seem to be all for other people giving up their rights, B, but God forbid The Man turns his eye your way.
     
    44Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:00
    This isn't a fishing expedition into entire medical histories. It is looking at the records of abortion mills.
     
    45sarge33rd
          ID: 211281813
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:08
    its prying nto the private medical records, lacking 'due process' and/or 'probable cause', of persons who under went a legal medical procedure. In Salem, MA, it was called a witch hunt.
     
    46Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:17
    B, read the link:

    The clinics said Kline demanded their complete, unedited medical records for women and girls who sought abortions at least 22 weeks into their pregnancies in 2003.

     
    47soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:18
    That's bullsh*t and you know it, baldwin. Your so called "abortion mills" also are low or no cost options for many women to get, among other services: family planning, counseling and birth control, pregnancy testing and counseling (INCLUDING ADOPTION NOT JUST ABORTION), birth control pills and condoms, gynecological care, Pap tests, breast exams, HIV testing and counseling, medically accurate sexuality education, screening and treatment for sexually transmitted disease, prenatal care, primary care and referrals for specialized care.

    Looks like a complete medical history to me. Because also included will be a patients medical history (surgeries, allergies, Rx or recreational drug use, etc.)

    Better crank up your hypocricy ratchet a notch or two.
     
    48Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:22
    Note that the good AG didn't specify that he wanted the records of people who actually got abortions. He even wants those who even just "sought" abortions.

    It walks like a fishing expedition, it talks like a fishing expedition....
     
    49soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:23
    The hypocricy ratchet is intended to cover your false concern for "covering over child abuse that results in pregnancy".

    You're for forcing a 14 year old girl who is raped by her father to carry her child to term anyway, so what does it matter if the girl is abused or not? It's not like you're giving her (or anyone around her) any choice in the matter.
     
    50Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:29
    They are performing third trimester abortions and covering over child abuse resulting in pregnancy. How do you expect the state to do it's job preventing this stuff without unedited records? Planned Parenthood has an outrageous record in this area and it is about time someone in authority finally started doing their job.
     
    51Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:30
    YHTR

    You enjoy letting the child abuser off the hook do you?
     
    52Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:30
    Planned Parenthood has an outrageous record...

    Links, please.

    Please reply to my #48. The AG is looking for more than abortion records.
     
    53soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:32
    whatever.

    What the AG is proposing (and you're apparently all in favor of, despite your conservative laissez-faire attitude towards the federal government) is like doing brain surgery with a chainsaw.
     
    54Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:33
    He is asking for the complete records of the clinic, not neccessarliy the complete records of the patient as far as I know. No matter what you can't police Planned Parenthood from enabling child abuse and allow them to edit out the name of the abuser.
     
    55soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:33
    Nice twist, baldwin. Of course I'm not proposing we let abusers get off scott-free.
     
    56Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:35
    You want a link? Enjoy.
     
    57Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:35
    It's also quite unlikely that these are child abuse cases. More likely teenage sex.
     
    58soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:35
    *laughing*

    Like you give a rats @ss about "child abuse" in this case, Baldwin. This is merely a tool for conservatives to erode abortion rights, and you know it.

    At least be honest and admit that's your agenda, instead of bullsh*tting around. At least that way there can be an honest conversation.
     
    59Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:38
    You can be furious over both issues, Zeit.
     
    60Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:39
    Given your strong reaction to the overreaching authority by child welfare services for children who are already born, I find your support for this action to be curious, at best, B.
     
    61soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:44
    So do you propose that every high school aged young man who has sex with a young woman under the age of "consent" be proscecuted for statuatory rape?

    With only one exception, every single male I hung out with in high school is a rapist then. Funny how 3 of them ended up married to their poor, poor victims, raising families and perfectly happy.

    bah - I will say this though, baldwin - your intellectual dishonesty never ceases to amaze.
     
    62soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:44
    prosecuted
     
    63Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:46
    I find it curious that government both...

  • looks for every excuse under the sun to remove children from parents

  • Forces anyone in contact with children to report the most innocuous indicators with a remote chance of signaling child abuse

    and then...

  • allows Planned Parenthood carte blanche to cover up child abuse for decades.

    There is only one explanation. The government doesn't care about child abuse. They only care about ever expanding numbers of abortions and an increase in the state's authority over children at the expense of parents rights.
  •  
    64Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 12:52
    Zeit

    I'll give you this much. It is a tragedy that every signal liberal mainstream society sends kids is that sex should be pursued early and often without concern for morality...

    ...until they find themselves in court.

    Which doesn't mean throwing up our hands and saying 'anything goes' is the answer.
     
    65soxzeitgeist
          ID: 2182511
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 13:00
    So now it's just the liberals, or a liberal societys, fault?

    Your stripes are showing, my freng.

    And I'm not endorsing either early and often or "anything goes". I'm just amazed at your lack of concern for privacy issues and your willingness to toss aside any and every other concern just because we're dealing with abortion.

    It's not about "child abuse", because if it was, you'd be screaming at the top of your lungs about the pedophilia epidemic in your own Kingdom Halls that makes the Catholic churches issues look like a day in the park. And it certainly isn't about the government overstepping it's authority, a theme that are consistently railing against in every single area of your life except here.
     
    66Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 13:17
    Now you have crossed into the zone of moronic slander and complete delusion. Have a good day.
     
    68Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 13:21
    Not to mention that you have now slid into bold-faced liar status.
     
    69Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 13:22
    Child abuse is pretty clearly a smokescreen here. If child abuse was, indeed,

    B, your link was worse than useless if I can be so bold. Some anecdotal stories, one series of fake calls in which the responses were continually and purposefully twisted so as to make one believe the clinics in question were committing crimes (captured wonderfully in their page childpredators.com. The holes in their arguments are huge, but perhaps you're willing to paper them over (with very large rolls of paper I might add) because you believe they add to your own pro-life arguments.

    You don't need to associate with people who make alarmist and mostly fake "news" to make your argument, B. You practically make your living pointing out on this site that liberals cannot hold valid argumenta using those very same technigues. You need to hold yourself to you own standards.

     
    70Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 13:43
    This is what you call flimsy?
    In its summary, analysts described how one researcher portrayed a 13-year-old girl made pregnant by a 22-year-old boyfriend. The teen-girl imposter telephoned over 800 Planned Parenthood and NAF facilities across the country.

    "Her story was that she wanted an abortion because she and her boyfriend did not want her parents to find out about the sexual relationship," the summary stated.

    In every instance, the group said, the ages of the girl and her boyfriend "were made perfectly clear" to clinic workers. "It was also made clear," said the summary, "that the motivation for the abortion was to conceal this illicit sexual activity from the girl's parents and the authorities."

    Among the findings:


    Many clinic workers openly acknowledged that the aforementioned situation was illegal and that they were required to report it, but an "overwhelming majority readily agreed" to keep secret the illegal sexual contact;

    Some employees coached the caller on ways to avoid detection, how to circumvent parental involvement laws and what to say or not say when she visited the clinic;

    In a "significant" number of cases, the Life Dynamics caller was encouraged to lie about her age, or conceal her age and her boyfriend's age, or to give a false name;

    One clinic official told the caller she was required by state law to inform a parent of the abortion, but went on to advise the caller to simply use a fictitious address when checking in;

    In many instances, abortion clinic employees advised the caller that if "someone were to find out about this situation," the boyfriend could go to jail, leading Life Dynamics researchers to conclude that "in those situations, it was unmistakable that our caller was being instructed to be more careful about what information she gave out and to whom";

    Researchers said it was "not uncommon" for clinic employees to interrupt the caller "when she started talking about her age or the age of her boyfriend";

    In other cases, clinic employees would advise the caller she had already provided too much information for them to help her, but would give her "the number of another family planning facility" and encourage her "to tell a different story when she called," advice which, at times, "was quite specific. …";

    In states with parental involvement laws in place and in which only a judge could give permission to have the abortion without parental involvement, the caller "was often … instructed not to voluntarily tell the judge about the age of her boyfriend. …" In similar instances, the caller was even encouraged to lie to a judge about the age of her boyfriend;

    Other clinics in states with parental involvement laws advised the caller to seek her abortion in a neighboring state with no such legislation in place. "In other words," the report stated, "these people were suggesting to a minor girl that she travel outside the state in order to cover up a crime that was being committed against her. …";

    In other cases, the caller was advised on how to circumvent the parental involvement requirement altogether, by having her bring along someone older and who looked like he could be a parent so he could sign for her instead;

    In a number of cases, the report said, "the [clinic] employee would not react at all to the age issue," causing researchers to "question whether it had registered with them or not";

    One clinic worker told the caller "if she came in with the cash, she could be any age she wanted to be"; and

    In many cases, clinic workers said the caller could come to the clinic with her adult boyfriend to pick up birth control, meaning that "even though [clinics] had evidence that a sexual crime was being committed against a 13-year-old child, they were not only willing to conspire with the perpetrator to cover it up, but they offered to provide him the means by which he could continue the abuse."
    "In the final analysis," said the summary report, "virtually every Planned Parenthood and NAF facility we contacted was willing to illegally conceal the sexual abuse of this 13-year-old girl. In every case, the clinic representative had never met this child, knew virtually nothing about her, had only engaged in a very brief telephone conversation with her, and was told nothing to indicate that her parents would be abusive if they discovered the sexual relationship.

    "Nevertheless, they were willing – and in many cases, eager – to help this child hide from her parents and the authorities the fact that she was being sexually exploited," said the summary. "To that end, they provided step-by-step instructions on how to circumvent state laws that were enacted specifically for the purpose of protecting children exactly like her in situations just like this."
    Eight hundred Planned Parenthood facilities were willing to coverup a 22 year-old impregnating a 13 year-old girl and you don't think that is a large enuff sample, a large enuff outrage for the government to look into when your doctor is threatened with fines and/or jail for not reporting a scratch on your kid's leg?
     
    71Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 13:55
    Let me lay it out for you: It's not actually a crime to make people believe you would not report the abuse. Unless they actually do (remember, they have no actual evidence of real people).

    Given the great lengths these people go toward trying to prove their case, you think they would have come up with one, single real example but they got nothin. From that, they jump to PP actively covering up pedophiles. Jeez.

    You've apparently gone in and bought the whole package. Good luck with that.
     
    72soxzeitgeist
          ID: 491452512
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 13:59
    OOoooooohhhhhh..."just make sure you don't get baldwins dander up over religion" other wise he'll call you a liar. Or a liar. Or a liar.

    Evidently my delusional state is shared by news organizations, former JW church elders and victims of pedophilia in the church. Every religious institution develops their own policies and regulations concerning accusations of child sexual and physical abuse. As an organization, JW's follow a "biblical standard" when investigating allegations of any offense on the part of a member. Proof that an offense has occurred requires either: confession on the part of the alleged perpetrator, or the testimony of at least two witnesses to a single case of abuse, the testimony of one witness to abuse, followed by testimony of a second witness to another instance of abuse.

    In the case of sexual abuse, the only witnesses are usually the perpetrator and the victim. As a result, proof cannot often be obtained unless the perpetrator is willing to confess to the crime.

    But we won't talk about that - just the abuse of children "at the hands of Planned Parenthood" or the Catholic clergy. Otherwise we may have to reexamine our beliefs about the world, or worse yet apply the same standards to ourself as we do everyone else.
     
    73Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 14:00
    Not one agency tried to report what they thot was a real situation. Not one in eight hundred. You want me to believe they were all feigning disinterest but would have obeyed the law and reported them? I'll tell you who is hanging by a thread, PD.
     
    74Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 14:05
    He said she said, complete lack of evidence cases are the bane of every judicial system. We take immorality so seriously that I can be disfellowshipped for merely being seen in the same private room with a woman. Usually you are trying to deride my religion for being too draconian for actually obeying the Bible regarding disfellowshipping, but today you want us to disfellowship based on one witness. I really have no use for your double-standards.
     
    75Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 14:12
    B, I'm simply saying that your linked organization hasn't demonstrated anything. It's not up to someone to prove that they would report a crime. It's up to your group to show that they have not. All they are saying right now is that a ficticious phone call reveals that PP might not.

    A crime occurs when a crime occurs. Not at the point when you think one would happen in a fake case.

    A phone call, BTW, is not a real situation. You seem to be taking PP to task for not reporting what they haven't actually witnessed. The moment someone comes in the door and reports a reportable action is when PP is obligated to report it. In fact, they can't report it before that point.
     
    76Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 14:14
    Special pleading. It is obvious what they do.
     
    77Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 14:20
    And it's obvious what your source does.
     
    78Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 14:38
    The only time in the Bible when there were a people [the Amorites] so eager to kill babies as to be comparable to today, God had those people destroyed and their land given to his people.

    But as I have often stated that is what Armageddon is for.
     
    79sarge33rd
          ID: 211281813
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 14:58
    I thought Armageddon was a pretty good movie. Specially those parts with Liv Tyler in them. :)
     
    80Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 15:04
    Here's hoping she survives.
     
    81sarge33rd
          ID: 19161911
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 17:05
    Baldwin, within this discussion, you are conveniently ignoring one singular fact. The KS G, lacks probable cause, to see ANY of these records. Yes, I want child molesters prosecuted. I do NOT however, want the US Constitution subverted by a political agenda.
     
    82Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 17:17
    Rereading that link again...

  • state District Judge Richard Anderson disagrees with you.

  • AG says, he has "the duty to investigate and prosecute child rape and other crimes in order to protect Kansas children."...sounds reasonable to me.

  • investigation targetted records of those who sought abortions at least 22 weeks into their pregnancies...The flawed Roe v Wade denied third trimester abortions if I am not mistaken.

  • Kline in 2003 began pushing to require health care professionals to report underage sexual activity. Kline contends state law requires such reporting...It's required as far as I know.

    I see a lot of perfectly valid legal issues that are well within his purview to engage.

  •  
    83Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 17:27
    -we've yet to see if SCOK agrees with the good judge, though your support of activist judges is interesting.

    -at what point does the AG's duty stop? Seriously, you've been very vocal about the brownshirt tactics of children's services divisions who have the same duty. The AG's duty has limits, generally along privacy and other constitutionally-protected lines;

    -the investigation did not target those people who actually obtained abortions that late (which Roe v Wade did not itself outlaw, but left to the individual states to decide). It targetted those who sought the abortions. Don't suppose you are a big fan of "hate speech" legislation, are you? So get off the "talking about it is just as illegal" kick.

    -There's no indication that the AG was or is actually correct that underage sexual activity needs to be reported, though there is little doubt that the AG believes all such activity to be illegal. He has yet to be proven right.
     
    84soxzeitgeist
          ID: 20155513
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 18:07
    *laughing*

    Sorry I haven't been able to join you for the last few hours, and I'm working no, so just a few quick thoughts -

    "he said, she said" is an awful cavalier attitude vi-a-vis child molestation charges, yet it's your stance when you disregard reports from your church, but not from an AG crusading against PP? Could it be you have double standards?
     
    85Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 18:18
    He said she said, is not cavalier. When you have no evidence and just one accuser that is what that situation is called.
     
    86Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 18:25
    PD

    The sorts of things I have complained about are examples where the DCFS have come in on an anonymous tip, taken the kids and blackmailed the parents into admitting guilt when they are not guilty or they are told they will never see their kids again.

    That is worlds apart from Planned Parenthood which I'll wager has tens of thousands of cases where their own documents would reveal they failed to obey the reporting laws. These are not dubious anonymous allegations, the girl is pregnant.
     
    87sarge33rd
          ID: 35132922
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 20:18
    When you have no evidence...

    EXACTLY!!!!!!!! When the state AG has no evidence of a crime having been committed, no comlainant, no witness, no allegation....his office has NOTHING to investigate. And less than no-right, to pursue private medical records.
     
    88Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 20:23
    The judge found he had just cause. Get over it.
     
    89sarge33rd
          ID: 35132922
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 20:27
    oh, you mean the AG's buddy, the district judge? Unfortunately for the AG, that ruling I'd wager is highly likely to be overturned in appeal. Unless there is FAR more than thge article leads one to believe, there is absolutley no evidence of a crime having been committed. No allegation of statutory rape ahs been made, no allegation of sexual molestation has been made, in fact, only the AG seems to think that someone might have broken the law and thus he wants to see EVERYONES medicala records. WRONG! Invasion of privacy, abuse of power....care to wager which AG/District Judge lose their jobs in the not too distant future? Even in a Rep bastion like KS, the Bill of Rights must have meaning.
     
    90Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 20:31
    What desperation to preserve abortion and the nazi scum over at PP. You haven't been reading if you actually believe PP hasn't been guilty of coverup of statutory rape in a massive nationwide RICO violation kind of way.
     
    91Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 21:28
    B, you don't think DFS finds tens of thousands of cases using their "bust in first" technique" Your proper criticism of their technique is that they cast their net far too wide for little to no reason, and harm the innocent in so doing.

    The same thing is happening here. In the hopes of catching some wrongdoers, the AG fishing.
     
    92Boldwin
          ID: 1411237
          Fri, Feb 25, 2005, 21:39
    PD

    I guess you could never admit it to me, but in your heart of hearts you have got to know that they don't ever ever report a child abuse case no matter how clearcut and for that matter your chances of being encouraged to adopt out instead of abort are zero. PP is a huge abortion provider.

    I am amazed you would expend yourself on behalf of a group like this with so much blood on their hands. These people changed their name to distance themselves from the fact they actually were seminally involved in Hitler's final solution. I wasn't using hyperbole when I said I consider them nazi scum. Come home to your religious roots and stop sharing in their bloodguilt.
     
    93Madman
          ID: 43410119
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 13:20
    BTW, didn't Hillary Clinton recently come out of the closet and state that she was in favor of abstinence programs in high school?
     
    94Mattinglyinthehall
          ID: 2824911
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 13:27
    I haven't been following this thread lately but I don't believe HRC has endorsed abstinence ed exclusively, as opposed for example to a sex ed cirriculum that focuses on abstinence while also covering safe sex ed.
     
    95Motley Crue
          Leader
          ID: 439372011
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 13:45
    Hey, if I had a kid that looked like that I'd preach abstinence, too.

    Sorry, MadDOG. I hope I didn't steal your joke.
     
    96Mattinglyinthehall
          ID: 2824911
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 13:49
    Baldwin is right in that jokes are funnier when based in reality. Chelsea might not be Barbara Bush, but I think she's matured very nicely:
     
    97Motley Crue
          Leader
          ID: 439372011
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 15:00
    MITH, that's fine. Opinions are like bellybuttons.
     
    98Toral
          ID: 22731114
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 16:50
    Wayback to sarge 36 and such, and the original topic: I read an interview in Canada's NP of an author last week who had done a lot of research and confirmed this board's intutive insights: the more self-esteem adolescent and up boys have, the more sex they are likely to have. The more self-esteem girls have, the less sex they are likely to have.

    Sorry I can't link to the article (damned premium content) but the author being interviewed has written a book in favour of gender-segregation in education. Notoriously, girls now lag in maths and sciences; according to the author, separately educated girls perform equally well as (all) boys. Likewise, men fare worse in creative activities such as arts; he says separately educated boys do not show this distinction.

    The author believes that gender separation in education should start early, but he didn't indicate how long it should last. He noted that as early as kindergarten, boys come to hate the drawing exercises etc., and say they are going "girl stuff". In a boys' only kindergarten, they love to draw, will do it all day. etc. Girls typically draw static objects, while boys like to draw things smashing into each other.

    Toral
     
    99Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 17:31
    Seems to me this might flow from poor teaching techniques as much as anything.
     
    100biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 17:46
    There are only two people that I've known quite well who were educated in a same-sex school. The girl was very promiscuius at an early age and died young. The guy was the most socially-deviant handsome 6'2" guy I've ever met. One truly twisted dude.

    Of course, this is just anectdote, which I often rail against, and probably had as much or more to do with the families who would choose to send their child to a same-sex school (who were far from ideal) as anything else.
     
    101katietx
          ID: 21382721
          Mon, Feb 28, 2005, 18:41
    I went to a same-sex HS (Catholic school) and I can definitely say that I've never seen a bigger bunch of back-stabbing, elitist snobs in my life.

    However, I did learn a lot, even if I got my knuckles rapped a time or two. Read things I probably wouldn't have in the public school and left with a greater appreciation for all types of literature.
     
    103Boldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 01, 2005, 04:45
    I would have no stong opinion on this issue were it not for the special case of black men in our society. Currently they are competing to see who can act the most contemptuous of education. Put them in an all male school and that false self-destructive machismo seems to drop away. This is what black educators have noticed. It's not my idea. I hate to see them being held back just so white PC snobs can feel better about themselves.
     
    104Seattle Zen
          ID: 178161719
          Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 21:42
    The real Washington tells DC to "get rooted".

    The (Washington) House passed a bill that would prevent high schools from offering abstinence-only sex education. Instead, schools' sex ed classes would have to include information on both abstinence and contraception.

    My state is better than yours, damn right it's better than yours ...
     
    105Boldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Fri, Mar 04, 2005, 21:45
    They make great milkshakes up there I hear.
     
    106Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Tue, Jul 05, 2005, 11:04
    Pediatricians Decry Abstinence-Only Ed

    now i'm sure that there is something heinous about this group, how they're involved with the Scientologists, NAMBLA, and P-FLAG. and Skull and Bones. can't forget them.

    nonetheless, they preach common sense in this case.
     
    107Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Fri, Feb 24, 2006, 11:41
    US agrees to stop funding abstinence programs

    Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO.
     
    108Seattle Zen
          ID: 3415339
          Sat, Feb 25, 2006, 01:25
    Perm

    There was no baby in that basin. What was thrown out is what is known as a load of crap.

    Good on ya, ACLU!
     
    109Boldwin
          ID: 49626249
          Sat, Feb 25, 2006, 04:27
    Abortionists aren't rich enuff yet, for your taste SZ?
     
    110Tree
          ID: 57137256
          Sat, Feb 25, 2006, 07:51
    i wonder who's richer Baldwin?

    Abortion clinics, or churchs...
     
    111soxzeitgeist
          ID: 911541714
          Sat, Feb 25, 2006, 08:39
    I think it's great that all these teens want to get Prince Albert piercings.
     
    112soxzeitgeist
          ID: 911541714
          Sat, Feb 25, 2006, 08:43
    And on a more serious note, the US hasn't "agreed to stop funding abstinence programs". Just this one in particular based on it's approach where Christianity, not just waiting to have sex, is the message.
     
    113Seattle Zen
          ID: 46315247
          Sat, Apr 14, 2007, 01:33
    Students who took part in sexual abstinence programs were just as likely to have sex as those who did not, according to a study ordered by Congress. Also, those who attended one of the four abstinence classes that were reviewed reported having similar numbers of sexual partners as those who did not attend the classes. And they first had sex at about the same age as other students - 14.9 years, according to Mathematica Policy Research Inc.

     
    114Punk42AE
          Donor
          ID: 036635522
          Sat, Apr 14, 2007, 02:10
    And does anyone actually believe it's going to become a taboo again to do it before college? No matter what is done.
     
    115sarge33rd
          ID: 76442923
          Sat, Apr 14, 2007, 08:02
    anyone let of center in their overall thinking? No. Right of center? Would appear to be a yes answer.

    Which begs the next question...Which group is living in the "real" world, and which is trying to live in their version of a fairy tale?
     
    116Mattinglyinthehall
          Leader
          ID: 01629107
          Mon, Apr 16, 2007, 16:07
    Largest study to date finds abstenance training alone appears to be a waste of money.
     
    117Mattinglyinthehall
          Leader
          ID: 01629107
          Mon, Apr 16, 2007, 16:09
    And no sooner than the moment after I post do I see that Seattle Zen beat me by two days. Oops.
     
    118katietx
          ID: 243562819
          Fri, May 04, 2007, 18:14
    I may have voted for him (mea culpa), but this is bad, bad, bad

    "that he wants to continue denying millions of women access to essential medical services, including family planning and safe, legal abortion, even if it means jeopardizing their health."
     
    119biliruben
          ID: 52014814
          Fri, May 04, 2007, 20:29
    Washington gets it:

    Gregoire also signed into law a bill that prohibits abstinence-only lessons at public schools offering sex education.

    Under the measure, schools that choose to provide sex education would be required to discuss abstinence with students, but could not teach abstinence without also instructing students about other aspects of sexuality, including the use of contraceptives.
     
    120sarge33rd
          ID: 76442923
          Sun, May 06, 2007, 23:23
    Opponents argued the measure doesn't put enough emphasis on abstinence, doesn't require proper notification to parents and takes control away from schools.

    Notification to parents???

    Here's your notification: Hey Parents...Your child attends a public school? We're gonna teach them about condoms, since it appears too many of you wont.

    There...that parts null and void.

    Not enough emphasis on abstinence? Are they trying to say that we teach harder on something demonstrated to not work? Well then, lets bring back the Yugo!

    Control?? Like the state mandated minimum subject matter/curriculum? Control...is a mirage.


    kudos to your states Gov bili.
     
    121Seattle Zen
          ID: 529121611
          Mon, Dec 24, 2007, 12:59
    You stupid little kids, no sex for anyone until they are married. And no money for anyone who deviates from this tired, ineffective mantra!
    The Bush administration is cutting off funding for abstinence-only sex education in Washington because this state now requires schools to provide additional, medically accurate information about preventing unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

    Up until this year, the state has received an annual $800,000 federal grant for abstinence-only sex education. The money was used to produce and air public service announcements as well as developing abstinence-only curriculums for schools.

    All I can really think about is the fact that there are less than 400 days left! Can't come soon enough!
     
    122steve houpt
          ID: 451161019
          Thu, Dec 27, 2007, 00:23
    You know what's funny SZ, it's all because of a law signed by Bill Clinton in 1996 - as part of Welfare Reform. And note, it's not even up for review as part of the appropriation process - it's an 'entitlement' - another fine mess from a House-Senate conference committee. Big government at work again - spending our money where they have no business spending it - oh, and states have been opting out for years.

    States Opting Out

    If they all drop out, look at the money we save. Goes back into the pot.

    It's bribery, just like tax dollars for roads, lose [your gasoline tax dollars] if your state did not change state drinking laws to 21. Even after Louisiana made it against the law to purchase alcohol under the age of 21, the feds threatened to take the money away unless they also made it against the law to sell it to someone under the age of 21 [was still only against the law to sell to someone under 18]. They finally did.

    =======

    [1996] Federal Law Mandates Abstinence Only Sex-Ed

    but....... The federal appropriation -- which balloons to $437.5 million when combined with matching state funds -- is the result of a little-publicized and never-debated provision of Public Law 104-193, the welfare reform law signed into law by President Clinton in August 1996. The bill represents a big victory for its supporters -- members of the religious right -- who have been battling sex education in public schools for some 30 years.

    The legislation, which was never the subject of public hearings or congressional debate, "took us completely by surprise," said Daniel Daley, director of public policy for the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States (SIECUS), a non-profit national organization that promotes comprehensive sexuality education. He said the provision was added to the legislation late in the process, when changes generally are limited to technical revisions and corrections. "An environment was created to make sure no one knew this was happening unless you were inside the loop -- unless you were part of the Heritage Foundation or the Christian Coalition."

    The bill, which does not require that funded programs be evaluated, was made even more powerful when it was granted entitlement status during a House-Senate conference. That means the legislation is not subject to Congress' annual appropriations process and instead automatically qualifies for funding in each year of the funding period.

     
    123Perm Dude
          ID: 481151269
          Thu, Dec 27, 2007, 08:55
    States agreeing to teach abstinence can receive annual allocations of $78,526 to $4.9 million over the next five years.

    That's not even a drop in the bucket in any state school funding schemes. And while the author might have a point (in fact, several points), to double this through "state matching funds" is a silly attempt at making this amount seem big.

    Oklahoma and Louisiana are two states that have been forced to revise their plans because of low grades from NCAE.

    Since when does a private organization have the ability to make a state school system change anything? Jeez, I can't even get my school to give me their budget. Sounds like an example of "cowering bureaucratitis" more than anything else.

    The effectiveness of the programs can, and should be, the main point here, IMO. Just as the failure of bilingual education was the main point behind many states doing away with bilingual education funding. It just doesn't work.