Forum: pol
Page 2180
Subject: Fox News Manipulating the Media? (PLEASE HELP)


  Posted by: TaRhEElKiD - [40612721] Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 18:15

Alright guys. I need your help. In a meeting with a prospective college's representative this morning he mentioned that I should write about "Fox manipulating the media" in an essay I have to write to gain entrance into a media program and the University of Depauw.

So I tried to look around and found this; however, how can I believe this website also?

I would like to ask you esteemed Gurupies to expand on the subject a little and enlight me please...

I am not the most politically astute person and thought this would be interested material if Fox is indeed using false reporting, etc...

Thanks,
THK
 
1Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 18:27
I'm not sure of the topic. FOX is part of the media (as much as the right likes to speak of the "liberal media" et al).

There's certainly a proud history of FOX trying to "counterbalance" a perceived leftward tilt of the "media" which might, itself, be changing (or manipulating, for the cynical) the media. But FOX's efforts, like all network news, is more aimed at the news consumer than at other news outlets.

That there is a conservative bias at FOX news there is little doubt (compounded by FOX's editorial commentators, who run strongly to the right and far right). [And it's been commented on here anecdotally as well. For example, during the last election night, FOX News, on several occassions, referred to Bush's victory as "we won."].

But I'm not sure that this really answers the question of whether FOX is manipulating the media.
 
2Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 18:49
See if you can get a copy of the video “Out-Foxed: Rupert Murdoch’s War on Journalism,” (MoveOn.org was one of the video's sponsors).

MoveOn.org, one of the sponsors of the new film “Out-Foxed: Rupert Murdoch’s War on
Journalism,” cites the nearly identical language used by Fox News Channel and the
Bush/Cheney campaign in the cable network’s attempt to discredit sponsors of a critical
documentary that questions Fox’s claim to be “fair and balanced” in its news reporting.

“If you put their statements side by side, the conclusion is inescapable: The Republicans
write copy for the Fox News Channel. In short, Fox channels the Bush/Cheney
campaign’s message. Roger Ailes, Fox News Channel’s CEO and Chairman, was a longtime
Republican Party operative, and apparently he still is,” said Wes Boyd, President of
MoveOn.org.

“The premise of the film is that Fox is a Republican Party mouthpiece. Fox’s response to
this criticism is taken right from the Bush campaign’s manager,” added Boyd.

PDF link
 
3 Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 18:54
The article you linked to was decent, but you'll need a lot more. The links to the first two pieces didn't work.

You'll need to be careful in how you phrase some of your accusations. If you are all, "they are LIEING! Those damn bastards are trying to subterfute the whole of civilation," you'll be dismissed as a crank of the order of Baldwin. Be firm, but humble as you sleigh the beast with your sword of truth.

You should post your essay or e-mail it and we'll make some suggestions.
 
4TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 19:13
Well Seattle-
The essay will be written on something I have read or encountered in HS that has prepared me for the problems and promise of the media. This representative works in the admissions office and has some serious pulling power as far as applicants go for the Media Program since he and the head of the media program are good friends.

I plan to write about 1984...however, he suggested possibly alluding to Fox sports, etc so the entire essay may not be to relavent for this forum...

THK
 
5sarge33rd
      ID: 711271021
      Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 21:37
THK, how could it be any less relevant than the thread "OT Which DVD are you listening to?", lmao or any of the other 500 OT topics threads which we have here abouts?

Relevant or no, I for one am certain it would be an interesting read. :)
 
6Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Mon, Jan 17, 2005, 21:50
Here's some more links you can poke around on and maybe find something helpful ...

From Fair.org (Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting)
Fox News Spins 9/11 Commission Report
Fox News Channel's extraordinary right-wing tilt
Fox's Slanted Sources

Misperceptions, the Media, and the Iraq War (PDF) - Report from PIPA.org - The extent of Americans’ misperceptions vary significantly depending on their source of news. Those who receive most of their news from Fox News are more likely than average to have misperceptions.

Bovine Growth Hormone Case - A Florida state court jury unanimously determined that Fox "acted intentionally and deliberately to falsify or distort the plaintiffs' news reporting on BGH. And the reporters got fired as well."

PBS Special - Cable News Wars

Article from The Nation.com

Article from Slate.com

Two blog sites citing a chronicle of lies, propagation of lies, exaggerations, distortions, spin, and conjecture presented as fact. One, Two
 
7Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 03:23
You have to prove you hate FOX News to get into a journalism program?

Now why would anyone suspect most who make it into that field are liberals?
 
8nerveclinic
      ID: 34757310
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 05:19
Why would he suggest you write on that particular subject?

While it certainly is true..."Fox manipulating the media", it seems like a strange subject for someone to suggest as your entrance to a college, unless he has an agenda and wants to only admit people who are in line with the agenda.

...and this is coming from someone who agrees with his basic premise.

Clearly all mass media has a specific agenda and attempts to sway public opinion with it.

I just think it's a weird suggestion.
 
9TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 21:42
Well, as you all know you normally pander to what college admissions WANT to hear. I am assuming both this admissions guy and the head of the Media program are liberals, and have had discussions about "Fox manipulating the media." Either way...I think I found a way to incorporate it into my essay without myself looking too biased. I will probably post my essay on Monday when it is finished.

THK
 
10MadDOG
      ID: 35015710
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 21:59
Is it common to have to write an essay to get into a college?

I went to 3 different colleges and I have never heard of this. What happened to SAT's, ACT's, high school grades and position in your class?
 
11TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 22:12
I go to a private school so we don't have class ranking. Of course you still need all that other stuff.

Actually, this essay is for acceptance into the Depauw Media Fellows Program. It is seperate from the University, which I have already gained entrance into.

About 150 apply per year and they let in about 20-25 per year I think.

The Media Fellows Program is a great program for those going into the field and they have amazing connections, which is why I am applying.

THK
 
12Motley Crue
      ID: 181650
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 22:15
Good Luck, THK. Just remember, hanging out here is great for learning vocabulary and seeing different viewpoints, but your opinion is what they want in your essay. I'm sure you'll do fine.
 
13MadDOG
      ID: 35015710
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 22:31
DePauw University
At a glance

313 S. Locust Street
Greencastle, IN 46135

Website: http://www.depauw.edu
Admissions E-mail: admission@depauw.edu

General Information
Private institution
Year founded: 1837
Religious affiliation: United Methodist
Academic calendar: 4-1-4
Undergraduate student body: 2,365
Setting: Rural

Fall 2005 Admissions
Application deadline: February 1
Application fee: $40
Selectivity: More selective

U.S. News Ranking
U.S. News ranking: Liberal Arts Colleges, 42

2004-2005 Expenses
Tuition and fees: $25,460
Room/board: $7,300



33 grand a year? Ouch, daddy THK better start working overtime

 
14KnicksFan
      Donor
      ID: 30815418
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 22:41
THK, are you still applying to UNC or has that fallen out of your plans over the past couple years?
 
15TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Tue, Jan 18, 2005, 22:54
MadDOG-
Daddy THK won't be helping with college.

I recieved a $12,000 merit scholarship immediately upon entrance into the University. Also, Need Based Forms and the Holton Memorial Scholarship (128 million in endowment donated by 1 man) will hopefully knock the total expenses down to $10,000/yr which is about what we now pay for a private high school...

Knicks-
I applied to UNC-CH; however, with entrance into the Depauw Media Fellows Program that will be my home for the next 4 years... The connections, internships and Media Program are too much to pass up...

THK
 
16TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Wed, Jan 26, 2005, 17:10
Here is the final essay:

-------------------

Andrew Samuel Wilson
DePauw University Media Fellows Application

What have you done or read in your high school years that has prepared you for the problems and promise of the Media? Incorporate an article or book you would like to talk about during an interview for this program that has most influenced your view of the media.

Because the media is meant to communicate information, those producing the information wield tremendous power to mold their knowledge into what they want to be read, heard, or seen. Given the influence on the average person, the presentation of the news very often can easily sway an audience toward a particular viewpoint. The novel 1984, written by George Orwell, can be used as a classic example to illustrate the problem of media control.

Big Brother and the Brotherhood have complete control over the subjects of Oceania, due in large part to their use of media communication. The government rewrites history to conform to current knowledge by adjusting the past newspapers. They control public knowledge of everything from large-scale events such as war, all the way down to the details of individuals in the news. Consequently, the people of Oceania are unaware that life ever changes, partly because each day they continue to read only what Big Brother allows. While the circumstances in 1984 may not seem to be a realistic use of controlling media communications; they do, however, serve as an extreme reminder as to how helpless we are as news consumers.

Media communications have progressed in the 57 years since the fear of Big Brother. On a positive note, the greatest feature of the media is the ability to reach a large number of people quickly, through many different forms of communication. Information is also easily and readily available to anyone interested. On the other hand, the current concerns regarding media would be the right- or left-wing bias of any news production, whether it be newspaper, magazine, radio, or television. For example, many critics believe Fox News to be a right-wing tilted organization that attempts to sway viewers to their very conservative way of thinking. For example, when President Bush was declared winner of the most recent Presidential election, a Fox broadcaster announced, “We won.” Using the words “we won” while reporting the news violates Fox’s slogans of “Fair and Balanced” and “We report, you decide.” Current conventional wisdom of media communication is that all news presentations should remain unbiased in reporting; however, how realistic is it to believe that claim from any news affiliate? Fox News is just one example of the many television stations under constant scrutiny, often joined by CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS and others.

We are not close to the extreme control of the media as shown in the novel 1984; however, the possibility remains. While the promise and problems of the media are evident, the pros of mass communication, at least for now, outweigh the cons. Media communication has evolved a great deal and will continue to do so; however, controversies and possible improvements will often loom in all aspects of the news.

As a DePauw Media Fellow I hope to delve further into of problems and promise of the media and gain a better understanding of each to prepare myself for the future in the media field.

--------------------------

Don't go crazy on this or anything...I just a politically unaware high school kid, haha...

You can give suggestions; however, the essay has already been submitted. Tear is apart if you like...

THK
 
17Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Wed, Jan 26, 2005, 18:59
Too bad JKP has disappeared from ther boards, THK. His critique, as a print media veteran, would seem to be the most constructive.

Other than a couple of minor grammatical points(starting a sentence with "because") and one sentence seemed awkward and punctuation(semi-colon) that I would deem questionable:
While the circumstances in 1984 may not seem to be a realistic use of controlling media communications; they do, however, serve as an extreme reminder as to how helpless we are as news consumers.
Drop the "While," and the semi-colon makes sense.

The content and presentation is probably more what they are looking for, and you crafted that well.
Good luck at DePauw!

 
18Baldwin
      ID: 500121617
      Wed, Jan 26, 2005, 20:45
I hope these guys aren't as radical left wing as I think they are. The USSR and local tools were so angry at the play '1984' that they refused to have diplomats come to Washington while it was playing. Why? Because left wingers are for Orwellian media control. They just want to make sure no competition to left wing outlets gets a foothold or any credibility.

So your mention of '1984' was a gamble.

serve as an extreme reminder as to how helpless we are as news consumers.

Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit is positive it is only a matter of time before MSM lobbies congress to stunt the internet in some way to help them maintain their monopoly.

The people you are trying to cozy up to are MSM insiders. They like news consumers to be helpless and have no other news resource but MSM.

Sure hope my worst case scenario is overwrought and they treat you fairly.

If it's any consolation the point about the 'We Won' overlay on Fox election coverage may not be well known among journalism students and may win you a lot of points. I don't know how well that was picked up by liberals who weren't watching Fox.

Anyone know how much coverage that got on liberal websites?
 
19TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Wed, Jan 26, 2005, 22:22
Well...my insider at the DePauw admissions office is pulling for me. He has a lot of leverage and is friends with the head of the MF program... If I don't get in...then I don't.... I will find out soon enough and don't care to worry about it too much.

Thanks for the discussion Pancho and Baldwin.

THK
 
20sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Wed, Jan 26, 2005, 23:33
Because left wingers are for Orwellian media control.

One of the most blatantly false over-generalizing statements I have ever seen.

Isnt Freedom of the Press, in the very 1st Ammendment to the Constitution and Bill of Rights?



While I thought the piece to be fairly well thought out THK, I didnt see it as much addressing the query you posted as the subject for the essay in your thread header. That being "How FOX manipulates the media". You touched on it as Baldwin says when you mentioned FOX as saying "We won", but didnt much delve into the point nor second it with additional references or examples. Still, I sincerely hope you gain entry, as I believe you are one of those who would sincerely attempt to report the news, and not be part of it.
 
21Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 12:21
THK.

I'm glad you posted your essay, but I wish you had done it before you submitted it. There are some easy edits that would have helped - starting the essay with "Because" was the first of your mistakes. Good luck and keep us posted with news.
 
22Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 12:31
Sarge

If you didn't like one party media control you wouldn't be so upset with Fox.
 
23TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 16:24
This was only allowed to be a one page essay...only so much I could do. Seattle...hindsight is 20/20. I would have posted it first had I not been behind schedule...

Still think it is a pretty solid essay and believe I will gain entry. Oddly enough...today I was invited to the Managment Fellows and ITAP Honors Programs. I wouldn't even have to apply...but the thing is, neither of those are what I am interested in, LOL.

Oh well...I have a good feeling about the Media application and will keep everyone updated.

THK
 
24TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 16:24
This was only allowed to be a one page essay...only so much I could do. Seattle...hindsight is 20/20. I would have posted it first had I not been behind schedule...

Still think it is a pretty solid essay and believe I will gain entry. Oddly enough...today I was invited to the Managment Fellows and ITAP Honors Programs. I wouldn't even have to apply...but the thing is, neither of those are what I am interested in, LOL.

Oh well...I have a good feeling about the Media application and will keep everyone updated.

THK
 
25TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 16:24
This was only allowed to be a one page essay...only so much I could do. Seattle...hindsight is 20/20. I would have posted it first had I not been behind schedule...

Still think it is a pretty solid essay and believe I will gain entry. Oddly enough...today I was invited to the Managment Fellows and ITAP Honors Programs. I wouldn't even have to apply...but the thing is, neither of those are what I am interested in, LOL.

Oh well...I have a good feeling about the Media application and will keep everyone updated.

THK
 
26Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 16:40
Did you submit three copies, by chance?
 
27Motley Crue
      Leader
      ID: 439372011
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 17:05
Hey who's this Andrew Wilson guy? What happened to THK?

I think it was well written, despite the items pointed out above. Just remember: at the level you are attempting to access, the content of your writing is much, much more important than grammar and syntax. That's why there are editors.

Baldwin, I'd say the question as it's posed probably gets a lot of 1984 responses. Virtually every kid reads 1984 in high school, I think. And it clearly is an example of media manipulation creating false history. I think on the face of it, 1984 is a good example. It's how you back up your point that is important, THK.
 
28Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 19:03
Don;t worry about starting your first sentence with "Because". There is no rule in the English language against starting a sentence with "because" (or "and" or "but") although you might sometimes hear otherwise from semi-literate elementary school teachers. If the people reading your essay don't know that, you don't want to go there anyway.

Toral
 
29sarge33rd
      ID: 440332322
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 19:47
re 22, when/where did I ever state I was "upset" with FOX?
 
30Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 20:41
LMAO. You've got to be kidding me, Toral.
 
31Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Thu, Jan 27, 2005, 20:59
Nope. I've done my research, and it would make it easier to answer (and more fun for all!) if you would just post that "It is wrong to start a sentence with "because, and, or but"."

Then we can get going!

Toral
 
32Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Fri, Jan 28, 2005, 01:56
Not "start a sentence", Toral, I'm talking about starting an essay.

 
33TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 0134510
      Tue, Feb 22, 2005, 00:35
Invited for an interview...

THK
 
34nerveclinic
      ID: 0123222
      Tue, Feb 22, 2005, 03:23
good luck...kick some ass.

nerve
 
35soxzeitgeist
      ID: 531342213
      Tue, Feb 22, 2005, 14:48
Funny how all the righties here were calling for Rathers head when he gave bad information on the air, but no-one is discussing that Brit Hume (Fox News Washington Bureau Chief and anchor of Fox News Channels prime time news report, Special Report with Brit Hume) and other Hume-inists are trying to sway public opinion in favor of Bush's Social Security plan with lies?

No less an authority on FDR's statement than his grandson (who was also a SS administrator, so he knows a bit about the program as well) has said "he (Hume) rearranged those sentences in an outrageous distortion, one that calls for a retraction, an apology, maybe even a resignation."

Not a whisper of outrage here though.
 
36Boldwin
      ID: 5111219
      Tue, Feb 22, 2005, 14:53
Whatever are you going on about?
 
37TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 0134510
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 16:39
Accepted into the Media Fellows Program at DePauw...

THK
 
38Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 16:48
Congrats!

Like I said, nothing wrong with staring an essay with "but".

Toral
 
39Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 16:49
Or "Because" ;"
 
40biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 16:52
Terrific!
 
41sarge33rd
      ID: 45229215
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 19:29
congrats THK! Now, go forth and sway the publics mind. :)
 
42Seattle Zen
      ID: 178161719
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 19:44
Congrats

With a young kid like you, they figure they can teach you to self edit. Toral, on the other hand, is a lost cause.

Good luck.
 
43Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 19:46
Nice going, THK. Be wary of any offers from Talon News.
 
44StLCards
      ID: 622428
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 19:49
Congrats THK. I found this link which I'm sure you could delve further into to find more information. It talks about a Depauw Prof and has some insight. I scanned it, but it seems he thinks that people that disagree with "Fox" for instance will say they are biased and then look for reasons why to prove it.

'Partisans view the world through their particular perspective and rose-colored glasses,' said Jeffrey McCall, communications professor at Indiana's DePauw University. 'They are frequently looking for examples from the side they don't agree with that the media is against them.'"
(Prof. Jeff McCall)

link
 
45TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 0134510
      Mon, Mar 07, 2005, 22:28
Thank you all. I am pretty excited about the opportunities and future DePauw offers. Throughout my college career, I have no doubt I will be here for advice again! ;-)

Maybe I will send some of you guys copies of my radio shows/newspaper articles...

THK
 
46soxzeitgeist
      ID: 46243278
      Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 09:46
It's no longer an issue what Fox does, thanks to this handy dandy device.
 
47Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:12
Fox News Won't Show Ad Opposing Alito

what a surprise...:o/
 
48Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:18
tree - the ad says that Alito "voted to approve the strip search of a ten year old girl". He did no such thing. The ad contained a pretty glaring lie. No problem?
 
49Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:20
I'm as critical of FOX News Channel as anyone here. Probably moreso. But they're not doing anything wrong or immoral in refusing to air the ad.
 
50Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:23
That's not a particularly glaring lie. In that case, Alito voted that the warrant in question did, indeed, allow officers to search the child, though he stated his distaste for the action.

In that particular case Alito did voted to approve the strip search of the child.
 
51Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:26
The fact that they won't air the ad is an interesting one that I want to mull over a bit. Public airways being what they are, I wonder what real basis they are saying they cannot air it. "Factually inaccurate" just doesn't cut it in this case. Particularly for FOX "We won!" News.
 
52Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:36
In that case, Alito voted that the warrant in question did, indeed, allow officers to search the child

No it didn't. His opinion was that te officers did not lose their immunity from being sued for searching the occupants of the home in reliance on a warrant. He didn't vote to "allow a strip search".

Secondly, the search in the case was a long way from a "strip search". From my reading of the case, nobody got naked.
 
53Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:37
"Factually inaccurate" just doesn't cut it in this case

Why not? It is completely innaccurate.
 
54Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:37
I think they should reserve the right to set whatever standards for themselves they want, including serving their own biases.
 
55Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:47
There's no real difference between voting that the warrant to included children and voting that the police had immunity from being sued because of searching the children. The police would only lose immunity if they did actions uncovered by the warrant.
 
56Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 17:56
There's no real difference between voting that the warrant to included children and voting that the police had immunity from being sued because of searching the children.

You are just wrong about this - prolly cause you haven't read the case you're commwnting on?



Police would not lose immunity if they, in good faith, reasonably but incorrectly, relied on the warrant for the search. the case turned on a highly technical point of whether the accompaning affadavit was incorporated in the warrant. The affadavit included a request to search the persons on the premises. The warrant only included the the premises.

Read the decision, not PFTAW talking points.
 
57Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:00
I think they should reserve the right to set whatever standards for themselves they want, including serving their own biases.

then don't present yourself as "fair and balanced," or whatever the crap it is.
 
58Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:00
Alito's decision simply said that it was not unreasonable for officers to believe that the warrant covered those premises and persons mentioned in the atached affidavit.

There is nothing wrong with searching a ten year old, were she covered by the warrant or were there other reasonable grounds to do do. If the magistrate hadn't been in a big hurry filling out the warrant form - it wouldn't even be an issue. The ad tries to inply that searches of 10 year olds are abhorent to the Constitution.
 
59Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:03
tree - do you think it was improper for TV stations to refuse to air the distorted Swift Boat Vet ads? Were you up in arms over that?
 
60Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:18
I was tempted to say that they ought to show the ad, but I see from tree's link that they have also turned down ads from the Swift Boaters and the RNC, so I guess I will wish Fox well in its attempt to bring standards of intellectual honesty to political ads, something way beyond the liberal media's interest or capability.

But I would like to see the ad shown. I hope there will also be a buy from the ad from the Committee for Justice which reveals the character of the groups running the ad, PFAW in particular. The people are going to see one sort or another of left-wing smear ads, even if one particular smear ad is dumped. They need to know that the originators of these ads are utterly irresponsible extreme left-wing groups, who also have the distinction of having the lowest standards of intellectual honesty in politics known to me. The people need to recognize the perpetrators of these smear ads, so they can regard them as they are.

I would also like to see the Left defend its apparent belief that it is acceptable for drug pushers to escape the law by pushing their contraband off on their spouses and children when they see a search coming. Maybe they'll defend drug operators using their children as mules. The more information that gets out, the better for the forces of the rule of law.

Toral
 
61sarge33rd
      ID: 5110132116
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:37
the "forces for the rule of law"???? as if! You're endorsing the party in favor of torture, in favor of dismissing utterly, habeus corpus, of allowing unwarranted seizure of persons and uncharged detention of those same persons for an indefinite period of time...and you point to them as being "for the rule of law"? Dman glad I dont abide by your version of law, although I understand Idi Amin thought highly of it.
 
62Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:46
Actually, MBJ, I did, indeed, read the thing. Also read the FactCheck commentary. Haven't seen the actual ad, however, just read the transcript.

...the ad tries to inply that searches of 10 year olds...

Yes, that's true. But implication is not the same as saying it's factually inaccurate.
 
63Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:48
forces of the rule of law

That phrase was unclear as I used it. I wasn't intending to praise conservative policies per se by using it. I intended to refer to the process of judicial nominations and confirmations. Nominees, whatever their judicial philosophy, should not be defeated (or confirmed) by sensationalist partisan political/media campaigns. That applies to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, or future "liberal" nominees, as much as to Sam Alito.

There are legitimate, discussion-worthy differences of judicial philosophy. The "rule of law", as I meant it, suggests that sensationalist smear-seeking groups, and the campaigns they run, should, ideally, play no part.

Toral
 
64sarge33rd
      ID: 5110132116
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:49
well, to that end, I'll agree with you.
 
65Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:50
No argument that their slogan is dishonest, Tree. Of course they have every right to set their own standards for that, too.
 
66biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 18:53
Tangential to 60: I stayed up into the wee hours of the morning to watch Scarface on TBS last night ( remarkably, they edited out all the F@#$ but left in pretty much all the gore I remember from when I watched it originally 20 years ago).

I didn't remember and was surprised by the scene when Tony's watching TV and the reporter is railing against a proposal to legalize and tax cocaine as a solution to the drug violence in Miami. I wish I could have caught all of Tony's response, but it sounded like he was scoffing at the politicos, knowing that they would never do what was smart, and put his kind out of business.
 
67Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 25337239
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 19:01
For bili:
Tony points to a figure on the TV.

TONY
listen to this, guy's always (X)
Hey,
good for a laugh.
Visual of silver-haired television Anchorman -- Vie Phillips
-- with a bit of show business image in him -- to be seen
again. Underneath his face, it says "Editorial."
`. . .
CONTINUED
.:

#02154 1 1 3
Rev. l/10/03
158 CONTINUED - 2 15E
NEWS ANCHORMAN
...the question is how with a small
law enforcement budget do you put a
dent in an estimated $100 billion a
year business? It seems at times
all you can do is put your finger in
the dike and pray but now we are
hearing voices that say the only way
we can solve the drug problem is the
same way Prohibition was solved.
Not by outlawing the substances but
by legalizing and taxing them. These
voices say that will drive out the
organized crime element...
(pause
for effect)
& am not one of those voices.

TONY
(responding) (Xl
What do you know -- you never been right
in your life, Vie baby...
(to Manny)
Guy never ****in' tells the truth.
It's the guys like him, the bankers
and the politicians who want to keep
the coke illegal so's they can make
more money and get the votes to fight
the bad guys. They're the bad guys.
They'll **** anything for a buck....
 
68sarge33rd
      ID: 5110132116
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 19:09
They'll **** anything for a buck....

and to that end, I'll agree with him too.
 
69biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 19:16
Sweet! Thanks, MITH.
 
70biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 19:21
I notice they left out Tony's Beavis and Butthead routine:

"Finger." Heh.

"Dike." Heh heh.

...
 
71Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 19:24
B & B are on Comedy Central now. My IQ is going to suffer accordingly.
 
72sarge33rd
      ID: 5110132116
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 19:26
only if you watch Southpark afterwards. ;)
 
73Seattle Zen
      ID: 3100137
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 21:37
who also have the distinction of having the lowest standards of intellectual honesty in politics known to me.

Give me a break. You are throwing away your intellectual honesty if you think that the People for the American Way are anywhere near as vicious liars as Karl Rove and his minions. Are you really that much of a Republican partisan, Toral?
 
74Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 22:05
Are you really that much of a Republican partisan, Toral?

I don't think so.

I am not actually aware of any vicious lies told by Karl Rove.

Please enlighten me. Just give me the facts.

Toral
 
75Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 23:15
Hard to tell what is vicious and what isn't. Is lying about Scooter Libby vicious? How about saying that Social Security will be bankrupt in 2041? How about bugging his own office in 1986 and blaming it on his political opponents? Or scrubbing his 2001 schedule to wipe out meetings with companies for which he still held stock (despite working in the White House)?

Rove was behind the Swift Boats Veterans for Truth ad campaign--is that vicious lying? (Well, that that case, it appears to have both qualities).

Is he vicious? Sure. Does he lie? Yup.
 
76Seattle Zen
      ID: 3100137
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 23:25
His office was behind the "black illegitimate child" lie campaign against John McCain in South Carolina. Only an idiot believes his denials.

Don't play dumb, you do not need any enlightenment.
 
77Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 23:56
I'm not playing dumb.

Notice that the above 2 posts say "Rove was behind this", "Rove was behind that". "His office was behind it." Based on supposition, and the tendency to credit/blame Rove with anything that occurs. Nothing alleged above about Rove challenges my award to PFAW for public intellectual dishonesty.

And as far as I know, Karl Rove has never told a lie in his life. Nothing said above shows anything to me otherwise. His GOP reputation is for blunt tactics, not lying.

PFAW's vicious lies are on the record. They flaunt them. They are professional liars who raise money on the strength of their successful lying campaigns, and promise more.

Toral
 
78Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 00:08
Um, no, I didn't say his office. I said Karl Rove. Now, maybe this is like color-blindness and whenever you see someone say "Karl Rove" you read "Karl Rove's office" and can somehow hid yourself into this belief that Karl is the next George Washington.

My point was: How many actual lies do you need to have in order for you to consider your theory crumbled? Give me a number.

I'm glad you've gone away from the qualification of "vicious." Your point just became much easier to disprove.
 
79Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 00:15
My original statement: [The Liberal groups especially PFAW] also have the distinction of having the lowest standards of intellectual honesty in politics known to me.

The word "vicious" was added to the discussion by SZ, not me.

And so far, my judgment stands unchallenged. No serious counter-claim has even been made against it.

Toral
 
80Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 00:24
Toral, you stated: I am not actually aware of any vicious lies told by Karl Rove.

Now, maybe you were simply responding to Zen's use of the word, and decided (rightfully) to drop it in your second call for examples. I'm simply trying to get you to clarify your point. Maybe you're watching a lot of pro wrestling these days to have such bravado regarding such a poorly-framed claim. But if you want to get down to brass tacks I'd be happy to take you up on it.
 
81Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 00:32
have such bravado regarding such a poorly-framed claim.

I made no claim. "Karl Rove has never told a vicious lie" is a claim. "I am not actually aware of any vicious lies told by Karl Rove." is just a statement of fact.

It is a secondary point for my discussion, but I repeat: I am not aware of any vicious lies told by Karl Rove.
I'd be happy to take you up on it
OK. Document a lie by Karl Rove and explain why it is vicious. Pretty simple task.

Toral
 
82Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 01:51
Sorry. If you can't even stick to one claim I'm not going to take it (or them all) up. You want me to document a lie, fine--that would counter your "And as far as I know, Karl Rove has never told a lie in his life." But I'm not going to document a lie, then try to convince you it is vicious (which was never your point, only Zen's).

Stick to one claim. Otherwise, you're just weaseling, while trumpeting a claim which doesn't yet exist in fixed form.
 
83sarge33rd
      ID: 5110132116
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 10:24
from the article I link in post 12 of the "Political winds shifting" thread...

The president's relationship with Karl Rove is not much better. Mr. Bush had believed Rove's claim that he played no part in the leak of Valerie Plame's identity. When facts suggested otherwise in the ramp up to Scooter Libby's indictment, the Rove/Bush relationship became tense.

I dont know. But I think lying to the Pres of the United States about outing a CIA covert agent and doing so in an effort to save your own highly paid position, is a rather viscious thing to have done.
 
84Seattle Zen
      ID: 3100137
      Wed, Nov 23, 2005, 10:40
And as far as I know, Karl Rove has never told a lie in his life.

Nice qualifier, Toral. Well, if you are not playing dumb, then you are playing semanics. Right now, you accusing anyone of intellicual dishonesty is the height of hypocracy.

Karl Rove's lies are so vicious that he not dare put them on TV, he makes fliers with them, places them on windshields of cars in church parking lots and denies, denies, denies.

Idiot.
 
85Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 13:08
forget Fox news manipulating the media, let's go right to the U.S. Government and GW Bush.

US military planting stories in Iraqi newspapers
 
86sarge33rd
      ID: 5110132116
      Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 14:47
When you dont like the cntent of the story, change the headline;

Rumsfeld: Don’t call Iraqi enemy ‘insurgents’

“This is a group of people who don’t merit the word ‘insurgency,’ I think,” Rumsfeld said Tuesday at a Pentagon news conference. He said the thought had come to him suddenly over the Thanksgiving weekend.

“It was an epiphany.”



An epiphany? OK Mr Sec, you dont think the term insurgent is correct.

Webster’s New World College Dictionary defines the term “insurgent” as “rising up against established authority.”

Thn later n the article you suggest;

After the word slipped out the first time, Pace looked sheepishly at Rumsfeld and quipped apologetically, “I have to use the word ‘insurgent’ because I can’t think of a better word right now.”

Without missing a beat, Rumsfeld replied with a wide grin: “Enemies of the legitimate Iraqi government. How’s that?”


Now, since you seem to want to argue semantics vs offer up anything of merit, you term the Iraqi Government as "legitimate". IF that is true, then the definition of the word "insurgent", would make it precisely the correct term to use. Unless, "legitimate government" and "established authority" are not in this case, the same things.
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 15:34
Doesn't matter. After bitching and whining over the supposed dilution of the word 'terrorism', the pro-war right has been deliberately diluting the word to their own benefit by misapplying it at every opportunity.

Case in point (post 75):
Baldwin: I think you'll find I've used insurgent and terrorist interchangably.

Yeah buddy, you, the administration and the majority of the pro-war right. And what's the point of accurately assessing your enemy, anyway, right? Just group them all together under the heading that reflects the worst among them. What harm could it do?
 
88Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Wed, Nov 30, 2005, 16:42
I addressed this very subject concerning Falljah, where it was fashionable to term the city as a terrorist stronghold.

Ironically, as Bush continues his offensive assault on the Sunnis, he continues to empower Iraq's Islamofascist movement.

The case of Iraq could not be clearer. In 2002, as Vice President Dick Cheney pushed the White House and the Pentagon inexorably toward war, it was increasingly obvious to experienced Iraq hands that post-Saddam Hussein Iraq would be ruled by its restive Shi'ite majority. It was no less obvious that the dominant force within that Shi'ite majority would be the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or SCIRI, and a parallel force associated with al-Dawa (The Islamic Call), a 45-year-old Shi'ite underground terrorist party.

From the mid-1990s on, and especially after 2001, the US provided overt and covert assistance to these organizations as part of the effort to force regime change in Iraq. Like Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress, with which both worked closely and which had offices in Tehran, SCIRI and Dawa were based in Iran. SCIRI, in fact, was founded in 1982 by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and its paramilitary arm, the Badr Brigade, was trained and armed by Iran's Revolutionary Guards. Certainly, to the Bush administration, SCIRI and Dawa were known quantities.

David Phillips, the former adviser to the State Department's war-planning effort and author of Losing Iraq: Inside the Postwar Reconstruction Fiasco, has assured me that, in the run-up to the war, many of his colleagues were well aware that SCIRI-type Islamists, not Chalabi, would inherit post-Saddam Iraq. Other insiders, too, have told me of foreign-policy professionals and Iraq specialists in the US intelligence community who warned (to no avail) that SCIRI would be a major force in Iraq after any invasion. The point is, whether they bothered to pay attention or not, the Bush-Cheney team was informed, well in advance, that by toppling Saddam there was a strong possibility they would be installing a Shi'ite theocracy.

Today, the unpleasant reality is that 150,000 US troops, who are dying at a rate of about 100 a month, are the Praetorian Guard for that radical-right theocracy. It is a regime that sponsors Shi'ite-led death squads carrying out assassinations from Basra (where freelance reporter Steven Vincent, himself murdered by such a unit, wrote that "hundreds" of former Ba'athists, secular leaders and Sunnis were being killed every month) to Baghdad. Scores of bodies of Sunnis regularly turn up shot to death, execution-style.

The latest revelation is that SCIRI's Badr Brigade, now a 20,000-strong militia, operated a secret torture prison in Baghdad holding hundreds of Sunni detainees. There, prisoners had their skin flayed off, electric shocks applied to their genitals, or power drills driven into their bones. SCIRI and Dawa are the senior partners in an Iraqi government which has imposed a unilateralist constitution on the country that elevates the power of the Shi'ite-dominated provinces and enshrines their vision of Islam in the body politic.

Perhaps the ultimate irony of Bush's war on terrorism is this: while the president asserts that the war in Iraq is the central front in the struggle against what he describes as "Islamofascism", real "Islamofascists" are already in power in Baghdad - and they are, shamefully, America's allies.

 
89Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 08:00
Thanks for the post!

Later in the article, Bush is compared to the Sorcerer's Apprentice, whose inexpert use of magic ends up destroying all about him. I think that is the precise analogy that applies to US foreign policy in Iraq.

Don
 
90sarge33rd
      ID: 148422311
      Sat, Dec 10, 2005, 10:23
agreed Don. A very apt description for what we see. A man empowered to apply tremendous amounts of force, but lacking the wisdom to intelligently do so.
 
92Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Wed, Dec 28, 2005, 22:35
Fox News blatant Lies

On November 21, Fox News host John Gibson falsely claimed that the House of Representatives voted down a measure offered by Rep. John P. Murtha (D-PA) calling for the withdrawal of U.S. soldiers from Iraq; the New York Post made the same claim in a November 22 editorial. In fact, the House voted on a counter-resolution sponsored by Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) in response to Murtha's that bore little resemblance to the original. Murtha's resolution asked that U.S. forces be redeployed "at the earliest practicable date," while Hunter's resolution asked that "the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately." Fox News host Sean Hannity also repeated the claim during the November 21 broadcast of his nationally syndicated radio show, the third time he has done so.

Hannity made the claim twice on November 18 -- once during his radio show and once on Fox News' Hannity & Colmes. He was joined by Wall Street Journal OpinionJournal.com editor James Taranto, who made the same claim in his November 21 "Best of the Web" column, as Media Matters for America previously noted.

On the November 21 broadcast of The Big Story with John Gibson, Gibson interviewed New York Post columnist and retired Army Lt. Col. Ralph Peters, author of New Glory: Expanding America's Global Supremacy (Sentinel, August 2005), and asked, "Why, then, do you think Murtha's suggestion last week, voted down by the House, is causing so much trouble?" Peters responded that by "calling for an immediate withdrawal," Murtha was encouraging terrorists "to think their strategy is working."

But the House never voted on Murtha's suggestion (House Joint Resolution 73), which he announced in a press conference on November 17. Instead, the House voted on a substitute (House Resolution 571) that was introduced the following day by Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. The vote occurred after a contentious floor debate, during which Murtha described the resolution as "not what I envisioned, not what I introduced."


Can we now dispense with the Dan Rather "liberal media" BS? These guys are just full on lying and neither Gibson nor Hannity is having their feet held to the fire at all. The reality is that their popularity has them seemingly bulletproof against the obvious charge that they are stooges for the the current administration as opposed to journalistsIt's time to start talking about conservative media bias, except these guys aren't really conservatives, and neither is Fox news. I couldn't agree more with the 1st comment in the link:

There is no way that Gibson and Hannity made the same "mistake" on this. This was a deliberate falsehood. This was deliberate. This is no different than when right wing German state radio falsely announced on September 1, 1939 that Poland had attacked Germany.

The shameful Duncan Hunter counterfeit version of Murtha's resolution is a permanent blot on the Congressional Record.

The fact that FOX News is trying to deceive the public deliberately on this one is final proof (as if it were needed at this point) they are a right wing propaganda machine masquerading as a news organization.



 
93Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Dec 28, 2005, 23:06
The Hunter proposal was pure politics, and the whole process was clearly labeled as such. It's hardly a blot.

However, the FOX portrayal is clearly over the line, as FOX is using public airwaves, acting as an unbiased media corporation, and thus has a responsibility toward truth-telling. They can be biased in their editorials (even consistently biased in their editorials) but the deliberate manufacture and repeating of factual errors are simply unacceptable.
 
94Perm Dude
      ID: 443352314
      Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 22:14
National GOP multimedia page is entirely made up of...FOX News video clips!
 
95sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 22:26
FOX NEWS = GOP PR Division
 
96Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 23:37
They should use MSM clips spitting bile at them?
 
97Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 23:41
At least now Baldy admits that Fox is not [M]ainstream. It's about time.
 
98Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 00:06
Of course FOX News Channel is mainstream media. Moderate or not. There is no other way to describe the highest rated cable news net. In fact Baldwin has always contended that fact.

But B's greater ignorance on the topic comes in his insistance that they are any less subect to the same tendencies of biased and slanted reporting, which of course is laughable.

Anyway, a strong argument can be made that FOX is the most mainstream of the cable nets. Not just because of ratings, but because FOX has very much changed the game, prompting the other nets to become more like them in attempt to keep up. From the blending of news entertainment with actual news coverege to the focus on 'balanced' (as opposed to objective) coverege to the occassional compromising of negative coverege of the GOP controlled government in the media during the early post-9/11 years, surely due in some part to FOX' priveledged access to the White House and Republicans in Congress.
 
99Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 02:29
FOX deserves to be considered mainstream because they are not inferior in any way to any other news channel. When that fact is conceded by the zeitgeist, then and only then will I be willing to lump them in with the mainstream media. As long as MSM falsely gets points for objectivity they deliberately abandoned many decades ago, I will go on mocking MSM for the farce they are.

When conservatives get their case presented by MSM as fairly as liberals get their points presented by FOX I'll start to grudgingly return some respect to the liberal broadcasting networks.
 
100Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 07:33
And of course we should trust you as a model of objctivity on that matter! Objectivity aside, I can't believe you consider yourself a close enough observer of mainstream TV news (besides FOX NC) to make such a call, anyway. So you'll have to pardon me for not waiting with baited breath on your word.

And again - FOX is MSM by any measure except for some mistaken definition that you apply. Mainstream does not mean what you think it means.

I'll also note that you offer no comment on the issue of blending entertainment with news coverege, the first and foremost reason for the downfall of cable TV news as a responsible source.
 
101walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 02:22
Right, no way Fox NC is as "objective" as the others broadcast mainsteam media outlets. They are much more blatant about who they support and who they don't. The others are not fair and balanced either, but I think they don't come close to how "we/they" Fox is.

- walk
 
102Perm Dude
      ID: 313532323
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 02:27
The problem is that the "fair and balanced" makes them overcompesate in presenting the Republican side of things, in the larger scheme of ensuring representation as a form of "balance."

It is the Crossfire form of journalism, in which you merely have to represent all sides to pat yourself on the back that you are doing your part.
 
103Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 02:58
At least FOX allows both arguments a hearing. Much better than the MSM's refusing to fairly explain the logic of the side they disagree with.

The MSM model is that 'they are the gatekeepers of reality' and any other perception does not even deserve a hearing.

We'll can move on to debates about who is more objective when the MSM even makes a token effort in that direction.
 
104walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 03:06
I dunno, B, I guess the perception here is gonna be filtered by whichever side you tend to agree with (conservative vs. liberal), but when I see Fox News, it seems more like they more aggressively lie, deceive, make inadvertant errors against the other side, cut-off, and ridicule the left side. I don't see that behavior on the other MSM channels. I guess one gets rants by Olberman, but I don't see CBS, NBC, CNN and ABC being as factually wrong and overtly negative and biased as Fox News. It's night and day.

- walk
 
105Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 03:08
At least FOX allows both arguments a hearing.

Many examples have been provided to the contrary.
 
106Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 03:10
but I don't see CBS, NBC, CNN and ABC being as factually wrong - Walk

Of course you don't. They only tell you what you agree with.

There you show yourself. You really don't care if they are fair and balanced. As long as the MSM are politically correct they are the only 'real' news.
 
107Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 11:23
See post 92.
 
108Perm Dude
      ID: 313532323
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 11:27
You don't see the problem, however, with a news agency knowing what the balance is, in order to present it? You slam the "MSM" (whatever that is) for being information gatekeepers, yet present FOX as being in the right because they are information gatekeepers while blurring the line between fact and opinion.

If FOX News was balanced (which it isn't, by any measure, including your own, Baldwin), the problem with trying to be "balanced" is that it implies that both sides are equally correct and it is that balance that needs to be presented.

Pro-torture versus anti-torture? You decide! Holocaust exists versus made up by Hollywood Jews? You decide! Godless liberals versus truth and order? We decide!
 
109Nerveclinic
      ID: 27318241
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 11:32

As long as you are agreeing Baldwin that Fox has a definite bias and slant when reporting the news then I am inclined to agree with your comments about the MSM which also has a bias, not always liberal, (Although maybe your definition of liberal).

The corporate establishments agenda may shift at any given time between liberal, moderate and even conservative angles and I can agree that for the most part the MSM is the mouth piece for this.

The difference is tactics. MSM is much more clever about trying to appear balanced and objective. Fox doesn't attempt that at all. They are playing to a particular audience.

Does Fox have the highest ratings and are they therefore "the" mainstream opinion?

Well if we accept that all the other networks are relatively similar in political and social agenda,(and I do from what I remember) we would have to combine all their ratings and compare them to Fox.

I think the reason Fox has these high ratings isn't because the majority of Americans agree with their methods and politics, it's because there are all the others and then Fox for those with far right wing belief system.

Combine ABC, NBC, CBS and CNN (All relatively politically similiar on many issues) does Fox still have the highest ratings? Not even close. Therefore Fox is not the mainstream political sentiment, just a large subsection of the population.

 
110Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 11:42
just a large subsection of the population

Reagan voters?

Interesting post just the same, Nerve.
 
111Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 11:43
Reagan voters?

Doubt it highly. Bush voters much more likely.
 
112Perm Dude
      ID: 313532323
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 11:52
It could be Reagan Republicans--surely FOX is putting out the full propoganda machine that they speak for and to Republicans, even if this Republican Administration has acted unlike any Republican Administration ever.

FOX News = "Denial News"
 
113walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 11:58
Agree, 108 & 109, 111 & 112.
- walk
 
114Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 15:01
For the record, I consider all news sources as apocrypha that one must wade thru with skepticism and exquisite discretion. I just am not willing to limit myself to just one source. I've quoted my enemy, the MSM countless times. I've quoted Progressive Review and indymedia.

The people in denial are the ones who don't think the MSM is ever wrong or that truth is ever found anywhere else.

The reason I enjoy WND is because they find stories most other sources are doing backflips to ignore and cover-up.

Do I think WND is infallible? One of their editors wrote a snarky [partially] anti-JW editorial. Of course I don't think they are infallible. Do I think FOX is infallible? They hired Geraldo Rivera and they didn't just hire scientologist Greta Van Susteren for primetime but Roger Ailes, CEO of Fox Television Stations, is an OT VIII Scientologist (the highest member level attainable). After those hires I have no reason to trust Murdock.

Surely anyone reading the poliboard recently is well aware of how that must make me feel. I'm positive FOX news will someday stab their audience in the back just as badly as the MSM has been doing for decades. But for now they are doing a better job than the MSM.

I'm just listening for the ring of truth and wish it was delivered more often. It's like looking for gold bars in clay bricks usually no matter the source.
 
115nerveclinic
      ID: 93212511
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 13:30

I'm just listening for the ring of truth and wish it was delivered more often. It's like looking for gold bars in clay bricks usually no matter the source.

It's the way it's always been and it's the way it will always be. Don't strain your eyes looking.

 
116Perm Dude
      ID: 31344257
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 14:25
Speaking of a manipulating right-wing media...
 
117walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 15:39
Freakin Post. Even the sports page sucks now, too. Left the guy's name on the byline as well.

- walk
 
118Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 16:43
I wonder how WorldNetDaily remains in business if they print lies day after day.
 
119Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 16:52
I wonder how WorldNetDaily remains in business if they print lies day after day.

"There's a sucker born every minute." - David Hannum (but often falsely attributed to P.T. Barnum)
 
120Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 17:17
Post 118

Not outright lies so much as information with key facts often left out (tho there have definitely been some instances when games were played with facts as well). Its a propaganda outlet that caters to readers who want to read stories that are biased toward their particular slant.
 
121Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 19:39
Even if you could prove that, how would that distinguish them from every other news outlet on the left?

During a half year media feeding frenzy they somehow left out from the Hurricane Katrina story, the fact that SOWL's [Save Our Wetlands] suing the Army Corps of Engineers to stop them from building storm surge protection on Lake Pontchartrain was the key reason Katrina destroyed New Orleans.

That damaged their favorite cause and left Bush off the hook so they had to ignore that 800# gorilla in the room to this day.
 
122Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 20:27
Baldwin

Pick any political article from today's NYT. I haven't read a single Times item today but I'll flat out guarantee you that they offer far more (and more balanced) representation of the opposing side than WND contributers do for the news stories they write.

Go ahead, make me look silly. By your accounts its should take you less than 10 minutes. If you can't devote that much time to proving me wrong before the forum then stfu already.
 
123Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 21:06
Pick a different paper. I am not going to sign up for the NYT. Nor do I work for you so that you might assign me deadlines.

BTW since most material in WND are simply links to other news media it is a ridiculous assignment. Are you going to accuse every newspaper they link to of the same thing?

Is any newspaper linked to by WND forever banned from linkage here?

I don't understand how you can be so oblivious to the outrageous nature of your stance.

Just turn the tables on this argument and ask yourself how you would react if I demanded you prove all your points without linking to left-wing newspapers?

I think the NYT and WP are every bit as biased as you think the WND is and I link to them.

Do you have a 'third eye' so that you might see yourself?
 
124Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 21:23
I haven't assigned any deadline. Take the Washington Post, then. Or CNN.com. Or Newsweek.

BTW since most material in WND are simply links to other news media it is a ridiculous assignment... Is any newspaper linked to by WND forever banned from linkage here?


Read what I said again. I'm referring to WND articles written by WND contributers, such as the propaganda you linked to the Ramos - Compean thread.

I don't understand how you can be so oblivious to the outrageous nature of your stance.

Yes, yes, if its so outrageous this should be so easy for you that there is no reason to bitch about it. Put up or shut up.

Just turn the tables on this argument and ask yourself how you would react if I demanded you prove all your points without linking to left-wing newspapers?

Anyone else sense a copout here? I'm not chiding all right wing media as totally unrepresentative of the left. Only WND. In order for you to turn the tables I'd have had to make the same claim from the opposing side. All you have to do is find one political article from today's WaPo that is as unrepresentative of the opposition as WND. Show me how outrageous I am.


BY THE WAY Look what I was able to do in the time that it took you to bitch and whine about my challenge:

New York Times September 2, 2005, Friday
They Saw It Coming

DISPLAYING ABSTRACT - Op-Ed article by Mark Fischetti says most agonizing part of what is happening in New Orleans in wake of Hurricane Katrina is that it might have been avoided; notes article he wrote for Scientific American in 2001 describing very situation unfolding there today; says large-scale engineering plan called Coast 2050, developed in 1998 by scientists, Army engineers, metropolitan planners and Louisiana officials, might have helped save city, but it went unrealized because of objections from some local politicians and special interests, as well as some scientists and engineers; says when New Orleans is rebuilt, it can be protected by engineering solutions that work with nature, not against it; describes how natural protections can be restored

To read this archive article, upgrade to TimesSelect or purchase as a single article.


NPR.org May 17, 2006
A Promising Plan

Back in 1965, when the Army Corps was trying to figure out how to protect the city against a big storm, the initial plan was to build flood-surge gates at the eastern edge of Lake Pontchartrain, to keep storm surge out of the lake. It seemed simpler that way. Otherwise, the entire levee along the southern edge of the lake would have to be made higher, and the canal walls would have to be raised.

The floodgates would have blocked water at two deep channels, called Chef Menteur and the Rigolets. If a storm came, the gates could be lowered to block the two passes. The project was known as the "barrier plan;" some say it might have saved large sections of the city.

Environmentalists had concerns about the plan, though. They worried the gates would make it easier for developers to drain wetlands and build houses. And they worried it would reduce the flow of water into the lake.

"It was going to destroy the lake. It was going to make it a stagnant body of water," says Luke Fontana, executive attorney for Save Our Wetlands Inc. Fontana had spent years fishing the area by those channels, and even wrote a song opposing the plan. But more importantly, he filed a lawsuit.

Legal Roadblock

In 1977 a judge ruled in favor of Fontana and other critics, saying the Army Corps had not done enough to evaluate the impact the floodgate plan would have on the environment. Elvin Heiberg, who once ran the New Orleans district of the Army Corps, says that while the barriers would have had some effect on flow in and out of the lake, it would have been pretty minor. The gates would only be closed when a storm was coming.

But in 1985, a full 20 years after the barrier plan had been proposed, the Corps officially gave up. Heiberg by then had gotten a few promotions and was head of the entire Corps of Engineers.

"I think that's probably the biggest mistake I made, quitting instead of fighting," Heiberg says. "I think Katrina proved that."

There is some debate about whether the barrier plan would have neighborhoods flooded by the canals. Two scientists think it would have helped.
Washington Post Oct 9th, 2005
One cause of the delays was a lawsuit filed by the group Save Our Wetlands, with support from fishermen and local officials, to block construction of two floodgates at the eastern end of Lake Pontchartrain. The suit argued that the gates would block tidal flows and damage the ecosystem. In 1977, a judge ordered the Corps to redo its cursory environmental analysis. The agency eventually abandoned the gates, deciding to build taller levees instead.
 
125holt
      ID: 50340153
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 21:32
argh, the politics forum. I can't believe people choose to spend their time arguing politics. both major political parties are two sides of the same coin. it's all about greased palms and propaganda. how many billions will be spent on 2008 primaries and presidential campaigns? the whole system is as broken as can be and it's not going to be fixed in the foreseeable future.

every 4 years Americans have their presidential candidates shoved at them. what a great system. it seems that the liberal vs. conservative issues that the major parties take stances on are enough to make the masses feel like they are defending something noble. next time you go to to defend democrats or republicans, take a good look at the group you are aligning yourself with (not just their "platform").

oh, to stay on topic, Fox News is slanted to the right, CNN is slanted to the left, network news has been slanted left for a long time. most newspapers are slanted one way or the other. there is nothing new here. it cracks me up to see supporters of the Democratic party call Fox News a Republican propaganda machine. what a great "holier than thou" "your own shit don't stink" attitude. get real.
 
126Tree
      ID: 03162517
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 21:39
what a great "holier than thou" "your own shit don't stink" attitude. get real.

holt - your post defines that attitude. you come in here saying how much the forum sucks, then spend your time posting here and railing against the posters.

pull up a chair, and enjoy the show.

and if you've got the balls, you might even post something that actually attempts to contribute to a topic.
 
127Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 22:24
Fox News is slanted to the right, CNN is slanted to the left, network news has been slanted left for a long time. most newspapers are slanted one way or the other. there is nothing new here.

Of course I don't disagree with any of this, generally speaking.
 
128nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 06:35

Baldwin Even if you could prove that, how would that distinguish them from every other news outlet on the left?

I certainly proved it a couple years ago in the thread about the protesters who were arrested for trying to disrupt a gay rights speech/festival that had a legal permit to be there.

WND left out lots of facts about the case that turned their whole journalistic integrity on it's head and frankly made your defense of the article look silly if not dishonest. If I remember correctly I tore the article apart.

I stand by my statement above. Outlets like Fox and WND are much more obvious about their biases then the MSM who are more difficult to pick apart as evidenced by your reluctance to take up MITH's challenge.

 
129nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 06:41

holt I can't believe people choose to spend their time arguing politics. both major political parties are two sides of the same coin. it's all about greased palms and propaganda.

Oh so you are a genious for figuring this out? Probably at least 1/3 of the regulars who post here agree with the above statement if not more so don't be so smug as to believe you've just blessed us with a revelation we didn't already know.

I haven't voted for one Republican or Democrat for President since I was eligible t vote in 1980 and I vote in every election.

There's plenty of anti establishment sentiment on this forum.




 
130Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 07:33
I'll issue a counter challenge if anyone genuinely believes the MSM didn't deliberately spike the most important story of Katrina.

Find a single person who has ever heard of SOWL or the role it played in preventing New Orleans from being adequately protected.

On the surpassingly unlikely circumstance that you do find one ask them if they heard it from the MSM.
 
131Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 08:56
I met your counter challenge 10 hours before you issued it. Read post 124 again. Or will you now contend that WaPo and NPR are not mainstream media?

And for the record, there is no definitive evidence that the project that the SOWL suit stopped, which you today deem so crucial, would have prevented the flooding of New Orleans.

For anyone interested, find the Rotoguru discussion of that issue begins with post 30 here.


Gonna show me how unrepresentative of the opposition the liberal mainstream media is now? You couldn't find any articles from yesterday. Maybe you'll have better luck with today's news.
 
132Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 10:55
From post #30 in the thread MITH links to:

However, the old plan lived on in the minds of those who put human beings first.

Are you kidding me? How can anyone, with a straight face, make claims of MSM(there is no such thing) bias and then present this as an honest alternative?
The entire article must be treated as an agenda-driven opinion piece instead of an objective news presentation.
 
133Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 11:22
Yeah that's obviously what it is. Though I don't dismiss out of hand that there may be merit to the argument, either.
 
134Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 14:15
MITH

How long did they beat up the exectutive branch over Katrina? Six months? A Year? And you think a couple articles cover the MSM collective butt? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that they allowed that issue it's rightful place in the debate about what went wrong? I repeat the challenge then. Find me anyone who remembers the MSM debate include the environmental movement's role in denying the storm surge protection for New Orleans. The same system keeps the ocean out of the Benelux countries below sea level, why shouldn't it have worked in NO?

I distinctly remember for example the Diane Rheem show on NPR discuss Katrina for hours without even mentioning SOWL or storm surge protection on the lake. All they want to talk about is the Army Corp's failed levies. They didn't once mention that the Corp would have prevented the surge altogether from reaching NO if not for SOWL's lawsuit.

Ask your friends and co-workers if they've ever heard of SOWL. Ask them what it stands for. Then tell me the MSM didn't effectively spike that story.
 
135Perm Dude
      ID: 56343267
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 14:22
Find me anyone who remembers the MSM debate include the environmental movement's role in denying the storm surge protection for New Orleans.

Is this really the measure of objectivity? Find an article which beats up the enviro-weenies?

No wonder you believe a MSM to be a monolithic liberal propoganda machine.

Katrina waa a disaster (as I mentioned in the previous thread) because the Army Corps never planned for a hurricane the size of Katrina. Why did the levees fail?
 
136Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 14:45
Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that they allowed that issue it's rightful place in the debate about what went wrong?

I don't know - and neither do you. As I've stated I've not seen any definitive case made that the barrier plan would have prevented the flood.

Regardless, I'm not going to let you off the hook that easily. You called WND indistinguishable from (what you refer to as) MSM with regard to representation of opposition points and called me oblivious for disagreeing with you.

I asked you show just one example from yesterday's or today's liberal mainstream news to show me just how "outrageous" that I am. You obviously cannot.

Again, if I'm so outrageous and onblivious, it should be very easy for you to make a fool of me. There can only be one reason for why you haven't.
 
137Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 14:56
By the way, Baldwin, if you think there is a more definitive case that the barrier plan would have prevented the disaster than has been presented, please continue that discussion where it belongs, in the thread I linked in post 131.
 
138boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 16:39
Am i the only one who feels NPR is unbiased. I listen to it on regular basis and fell in general it only tells me news much like watching the BBC. also i have noticed that at one time i thought CNN leaned to the left but of recent they have add some show that seems to be only every night with a G in the corner that makes fox seem leftest.
 
139Perm Dude
      ID: 56343267
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 16:46
I think NPR has a bias--take a look at their coverage of Mumia Abu Jamal, for instance. But I think there are lots of stories you find on NPR that you don't find anywhere else.

 
140boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 16:49
PD, i guess you are right i think i ignore that fact becuase i like hearing stories i do not hear else where.
 
141nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 06:04



Baldwin... I can concede your point on the NO story you are siting. The MSM has biases.

The difference is they are not as blatant and obvious and in your face as Fox. You had to go back a year to come up with something. MITH challenged you to find something in yesterday's news.

Anyone can watch Fox on a nightly basis and witness their combative, highly biased, pro conservative reporting style. It's not even disguised.

 
142Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 08:37
Nerve

Note the disagreement between Baldwin and I is not regarding FOX and the other cable nets or FOX and liberal mainstream media. Specifically the comparison is between liberal mainstream news and WND.

Regarding FOX, its my opinion that, with specific regard to representation of opposing points, they overall offer similar coverege to the other cable nets in their news reporting. But that they are less typically objective in that reporting. FOX anchors are more likely to frame their news reporting within the talking points of the right rather than apply more neutral language. They are also more likely to express disdain (usually through tone and sometimes enough combative interviewing) for left politics as well. As you say, Fox is simply more open about their bias.

But my observation is that Fox is more consistant as well. Or at least they have been through the Bush administration. In the first 18 or so months following 9/11, there was an awful lot that mainstream media left uncovered. I'm sure Baldwin will bristle at this but you can hardly call the overal cable TV covereage during that time left-leaning. Prior to the start of the Iraq war, the greater media was very favorable toward the Bush administration.
 
143Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 08:47
And regarding the Save Our Wetlands story - it was not ignored. There was a scathing article in the LA Times, which broke the story. That was followed by an opinion piece in the WSJ. We know there was coverege in the Washington Post and I find it odd that NPR would do a writeup but not cover it on the air, but I don't ever listen to them so I don't know. I'd bet anything that if someone with Lexis access searched for "Save our Wetlands" on CNN and MSNBC you'd get hits there as well.

It wasn't front and center because no strong case was ever made that teh barrier plan would have prevented the disaster. Further, coverege might have led to more embarrassment for Bush because it appears that the story may have initially hit the news thanks to propaganda releases sent out by the administration as news items. We've covered that practice here before.
 
144Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sat, Apr 28, 2007, 04:54
OMG

The MSM innoculates themselves with one little article about the real story and then does their firestorm victory dance on Bush's head ignoring the nub of the matter the other 364 days of the year...

...and WND is somehow the badguy even tho they are the ones who won't let the MSM bury these stories and for the most part they are only quoting the rare newspaper articles where the truth briefly slips out from under the self-censorship of the left MSM.
 
145Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Apr 28, 2007, 10:21
You don't know haow many stories MSM ran. I search "save our wetlands" at foxnews.com and get exactly 1 result.. Same as WaPo. Same as NPR. Same as the LA Times - who broke the stupid story for the likes of Fox. You're whining about coverege of story that might or might not be significant from almost 2 years ago a ("the nub of the matter" in your words - thanks for the laugh).

WND is somehow the badguy even tho they are the ones who won't let the MSM bury these stories

These are your old evasion tricks from when you know you are beat. You do know you're not fooling anyone, don't you? WND is a propaganda rag. Like The Progressive Review on the other side (worse in my opinion, but whatever). Both will occassionally uncover stories that the MSM doesn't pick up or buries. But 90% of the original writing that you find at each (well, 98% from WND) is trash.

I can offfer plenty of articles that are written by WND contributeros that offer neither balance nor objectivity.

For days now I've asked you to find just one news article from a liberal mainstream media source that is as completely biased.

You cannot.

This discussion is over.
 
146Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 06:05
For days now I've asked you to find just one news article from a liberal mainstream media source that is as completely biased.

Guess I missed that question. You didn't think for example, the NYT running a full court press daily harang for months to get the Masters open to women was biased PC propaganda? The idea that I might have trouble finding examples of liberal media bias is so stupid I can't believe you think it is a slam dunk for you. Nerve isn't admitting you are wrong for nothing.

The discussion is over.

Now pretending you are the forum referee is the sort of buffoonery I expect from Tree, not you, MITH.

I'm retired and away at a religious convention all weekend and even with two hands tied behind my back I don't have the feeling like you are doing well in this thread at all, MITH, let alone a walk-off winner.

I guess it is so hard for you to accept that the MSM is far and away liberal biased is because to accept it you'd then have to explain why liberalism is the ideology so unpopular that it dares not speak it's name even with that much of an institutional propaganda advantage.



 
147nerveclinic
      ID: 27051103
      Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 08:14
Baldwin to MITH I guess it is so hard for you to accept that the MSM is far and away liberal biased

I want to make it clear I wasn't saying the MSM has a specifically liberal bias. Just biases.

For example they definitely helped Bush make the case for invading Iraq. Although they did point out some question marks at the time, they certainly didn't paint things in such a way to make it seem they were anti the war. They pulled out the anti Saddam propaganda films and then didn't bother mentioning it was the CIA who helped put him in power.

Even when there were millions of Americans marching in the streets in February before the war, the anti war view didn't get much coverage. How is that "liberal".

It all depends on the issue and the corporate agenda at any given time.

Do they have a "libral" bias on certain issues like abortion for instance? Without a doubt. It's only certain issues though. They are conservative when they need to be like rallying the country to war.

Of course I can't speak for what's happening on the news now since I haven't seen it since October and even then I seldom watch any of the major news network propaganda programs. They all, including Fox, are a form of propaganda in my opinion.

Funny Baldwin, Chomsky thinks the MSM is biased also, just in a little different direction then you do. It's all degrees of perception based on each individuals political view point.

You're only noticing the "liberal" biases because when they help the position you agree with, you don't view it as a bias, just as correct.

 
148Perm Dude
      ID: 133297
      Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 09:03
You're only noticing the "liberal" biases because when they help the position you agree with, you don't view it as a bias, just as correct.

An excellent point, nerve.
 
149katietx
      ID: 243562819
      Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 10:56
I find it somewhat interesting that one of the talk radio stations I listen to on occasion...is a Fox station. At the end of every news broadcast is "Fox News, fair and balanced."

Trying to drive the point home and not doing a good job of it. ;-)

The morning show guys are the best, 3 of them: 1 uber conservative, 1 moderate, and one obviously with liberal "leanings." Lends to some pretty intense conversations.

The rest of it...well the usual, Rush, Bortz, etc.

Does the MSM slant things? Of course they do, as do any and all other TV/radio/print media. NPR probably does the best job of trying to have a middle of the road, simple news reporting.
 
150Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 23:04
Baldwin once again attempts to divert the discussion from his failure to prove that WND is indistinguishable from the liberal mainstream media with regard to balance.

He attempts this this with the false and pathetic assertion that I deny any bias on the part of liberal mainstream media. Of course anyone who bothers to read my recent posts here and longtime history throughout the forum on the topic that I am eagerly forthright about their bias.

Now pretending you are the forum referee is the sort of buffoonery I expect from Tree, not you, MITH.

My apologies for such buffoonery! Have it your way then, the discussion isn't over.



Challenge reissued.


Once again, for the third time over 4 days, find me that article from any source in today's (Sunday, Monday, I don't care) liberal mainstream media that is as unrepresentative of the opposition as what I have recently seen from WND.

As you continue to debate me on this by changing the subject rather than address the actual point of contention, it occurs to me that the buffoonery I'm most accostomed to from Tree and (especially) Jag is not knowing or admitting when they're beat.

Find me an article. Just one. Show the forum you aren't beat. Show the forum how outrageous my contention is.

Show any new lurkers and unanointed news watchers the righteous path and display for them how WND is easily proven no less balanced than the liberal mainstream news!

If you can.
 
151Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 00:39
When did I ever claim the WND was neutral?

WND isn't claiming to be neutral. They are most accurately described as a conservative news clipping service.

FOX claims to be fair and balanced which are not coterminous with neutral BTW.

If you want to see liberal media bias watch them cover the recent Ted Kenedy push for universal healthcare socialism redux infinity+1. 'Breathless lovefest' would about cover their stance. Or 'full court press in favor of' would be my second choice description.
 
152Tree
      ID: 17343304
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 06:47
They are most accurately described as a conservative news clipping service.

i'd say that's correct, as they clip out anything that might actually show even the slighest level of balance.

by doing so, they become a conservative news-rewriting service, to be used by those who aren't smart enough to have news delivered to them in a form that they could decide for themselves as to what side of the fence they want to be on for that issue.
 
153Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 07:26
A conservative new clipping service is essential because a NYT article about SOWL causing the Katrina debacle is as rare as a blue moon. And MITH may not get around to point it out in timely fashion nor trumpet the story as loudly as it deserves.

The idea that somehow WND readers would be unaware of liberal news finger-pointing at everyone else but SOWL as the culprit is ludicrous.


 
154Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 07:29
When did I ever claim the WND was neutral?

Buffoonery in action:
Mith: (Re: WND) Not outright lies so much as information with key facts often left out (tho there have definitely been some instances when games were played with facts as well). Its a propaganda outlet that caters to readers who want to read stories that are biased toward their particular slant.

B: Even if you could prove that, how would that distinguish them from every other news outlet on the left?

Mith: Pick any political article from today's NYT. I haven't read a single Times item today but I'll flat out guarantee you that they offer far more (and more balanced) representation of the opposing side than WND contributers do for the news stories they write.

B: And you think a couple articles cover the MSM collective butt? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that they allowed that issue it's rightful place in the debate about what went wrong?

Mith: I don't know - and neither do you.

I'm not going to let you off the hook that easily. You called WND indistinguishable from (what you refer to as) MSM with regard to representation of opposition points and called me oblivious for disagreeing with you.

I asked you show just one example from yesterday's or today's liberal mainstream news to show me just how "outrageous" that I am.


B: OMG... WND is somehow the badguy even tho they are the ones who won't let the MSM bury these stories and for the most part they are only quoting the rare newspaper articles where the truth briefly slips out from under the self-censorship of the left MSM.

Mith: your old evasion tricks from when you know you are beat.... you're not fooling anyone. ... For days now I've asked you to find just one news article from a liberal mainstream media source that is as completely biased.

B: Guess I missed that question. You didn't think for example, the NYT... blah blah blah.

Mith: Have it your way then... Challenge reissued. ... find me that article from any source in today's (Sunday, Monday, I don't care) liberal mainstream media that is as unrepresentative of the opposition as what I have recently seen from WND.

B: When did I ever claim the WND was neutral?
Of course no one ever made any claims that any source was neutral or unbiased (despite your efforts to paint my poistion that way). It was my claim that WND is less representative of the opposition than liberal mainstream news that you contended. It was that contention that I challenged. A challenge you have danced around since Wednesday night. This is Monday morning. You'll defend it or you won't. There's no one here who doesn't see your evasion for exactly what it is.

Tell me, how much time did you spend looking?

Did you even try, or did you know immediately there was no way you could back yourself up?
 
155Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 10:21
A couple observations:

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

If it were not for WorldNetDaily, I would never have heard the true story behind the crash of TWA 800.
 
156Perm Dude
      ID: 40329307
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 10:28
So, don't believe everything on the intenet, except the "true" story, which you'll only find on WND?
 
157Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 10:29
I won't deny that WND has been a source for information otherwise ignored or uncovered by the greater media.

My argument is not about whether it has any value at all. Its about a much more specific comparison drawn between it and the liberal mainstream media.
 
158Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 11:19
Don't believe everything does not mean don't believe anything.

 
159Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 11:24
And my specific complaint is the pretention of the MSM that they are the referee on what is objective truth and every other source of information is inferior.

In my mind they aren't one bit less biased than the democrat'ic' party aparatus, and are even made up of the same people moving back and forth between jobs on each.
 
161Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 11:38
In my mind they aren't one bit less biased than the democrat'ic' party aparatus

Well thats a revelation. Of course its very easy to show that by any reasonable standard that they are in fact much more biased, since they will only write and post stories that cater to their base.

The liberal mainstream media, on the other hand, does tend to write and pick up items which favor to the political left, but they, on the other hand, will also represent the other side, even if to a lesser degree.

The point is that WND offers far less representation, and very often none at all.

This is how their bias is distinguishable from that of liberal mainstream news.
 
162Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 11:58
Congrats, MITH, for pointing out that Baldwin does not even have the honor to admit defeat. I guess his unwillingness comes from a lifetime of being on the extremely short end of the stick. He is constantly challenging people to a battle of wits, wielding a overcooked linguine noodle in a sword fight. The psychological toll must be immense.
 
163Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 12:07
You have made a nice sidestep in the last series of posts in that you have switched to dueling with the strawman that WND isn't objective.

No one claimed WND was an objective news network. I've said all along that they were a conservative watchdog and news clipping service.

Stick to Fox news. Look at the thread title. If you feel the MSM is more fair and more balanced than FOX then stick to your story and prove it.

 
164Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 12:24
sidestep in the last series of posts in that you have switched to dueling with the strawman that WND isn't objective...

Stick to Fox news. Look at the thread title.

Lol! It was written two years ago! This thread wa abandoned for over a year until post 94!

If you feel the MSM is more fair and more balanced than FOX then stick to your story and prove it.

You should have been a pretzel maker.

a. Fox is mainstream media. The most mainstream of the cable news nets.

b. Please point out this argument that I have sidestepped from. What did I say and where and when did I say it?
 
165Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 12:45
I thnk that would be your post #150...

Baldwin once again attempts to divert the discussion from his failure to prove that WND is indistinguishable from the liberal mainstream media with regard to balance.
- MITH

I had never tried to prove WND was balanced or unbiased.

I had never compared WND with the MSM.

You had never asked me to do so.

The issue had not even come up and here you start to pretend it was the point of the discussion.

When I see a move like this I can only presume you felt you were doing so poorly discussing Fox vs liberal MSM, that you decided to pick an argument you had a better chance of winning.
 
166Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 13:00
I had never compared WND with the MSM.

Then what in the world was post 121 all about?

You had never asked me to do so.

You'll tell me now you never read post 122?
 
167Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 13:37
I can only presume you felt you were doing so poorly discussing Fox vs liberal MSM, that you decided to pick an argument you had a better chance of winning.

Lets get this straight right now - I have not waivered on (much less sidestepped) anything I've said regarding FNC. In fact, I've been much easier on FOX in this thread than most or all of the other leftists who have discussed them. I don't know that I've said anything about them for you to take any great exception to.

The only significant point of contention between you and I regarding Fox is whether or not they actually are mainstream media. Since you deliberately intend an inaccurate definition for that term, its not worth fighting with you over.

Either you've performed the sloppiest and most absurd subject change evasion in the history of this forum or you are cracked enough to be in total denial of what is plain and obvious in front of everyone's face in black and gray or you are completely out of your mind, posting through this thread in response to arguments entirely fabricated in your imagination.
 
168boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 14:08
I had never compared WND with the MSM.

Then what in the world was post 121 all about?
???? I have been just reading allong so i may have missed some pionts but post 121 does not seem to do that.

Oh, and Fox, as biased as it maybe, is mainstream media and really i can not see how anyone can argue that. the one thing about Fox news is that you know it biased, so atleast you do not have to questions biasiness.
 
169Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 14:17
Are you saying that post 121 was not in response to my 120?

He wrote, "Even if you could prove that, how would that distinguish them from every other news outlet on the left?"

What other post could he have been responding to with that question?
 
170boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 15:01
no i think he was answer 120, though i could not follow how that was comparing WND to MSN.
 
171Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 15:09
What does the very first line of post 120 say?

Is this really rocket science?
 
172boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 15:19
i must be going crazy, either i can not read today or something.

Post 118

post 118:

I wonder how WorldNetDaily remains in business if they print lies day after day.
 
173Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 15:30
Right, then I offered further comments about WND in post 120.

Post 121 he responded by asking how that distinguishes them from every other news outlet on the left. You think he was referring there to Talking Points Memo and Wonkette? He's referring to what he calls the democrat'ic' party aparatus. And if there's somehow any doubt that he means liberal mainstream media, simply read the rest of his post 121.

Or do you think he changed the subject right in the middle of post 121 from a cryptic reference to Daily Kos to explicitly discussing liberal mainstream news?
 
174boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 15:37
Ah ok i see what happened here i am reading from every other news outlet on the left? and not making the connect that includes MSN. I must have read that bost 50 times before i made the connection. then again he could have just totally ment something else and typed it out wrong like i would do.
 
175Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 15:47
At the very least, "every other news outlet on the left" includes what he calls MSM. Much more likely, he intends MSM, specifically.

It's not as if I deviously changed the subject someplace. I took issue with what he wrote in post 121 and challenged him to prove it. For whatever reason, he's still failed and even refused to do so. In post 165 he even denied that I ever issued the challenge in the first place.
 
176katietx
      ID: 243562819
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 16:36
You should have been a pretzel maker.

This is likely one of the best lines I've read in 3 days.

Thank you...I needed that.
 
177Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 17:09
Well, WND has taken abuse in this thread, that's undeniable, but there was never any discussion about whether or not they were taking sides right up front.

WND has been slandered as if they've never said a true word in their lives. No one even bothered to call them merely biased. I've defended them and will go on defending them for the invaluable job they do, finding the nuggets of truth that infrequently slip past the spinning editors.

Again I never said they weren't 'biased' but frankly as I stated they aren't any less partisan than the MSM.

Pick any political article from today's NYT. I haven't read a single Times item today but I'll flat out guarantee you that they offer far more (and more balanced) representation of the opposing side than WND contributers do for the news stories they write. - MITH

OK, I admit I didn't scroll back and find #122. But here is why I don't think we are discussing WND in this thread. WND makes no claim to be neutral. The MSM claim to be the definition of objectivity. They claim to have a monopoly on defining reality.

FOX claims to present a balanced report, that you will hear both sides. That is why they make a fair analogy for comparison to the track record of the MSM. I think they deliver infinitely moreso than the MSM.

Not only does the MSM not live up to the claim FOX makes, but they claim there is no other side to tell. All other naratives are phony. In doing so they are clearly as biased as an upfront take-sides-on-every-issue outfit like WND, only without the honesty to admit it which is very dangerous to their audience. The public too often turn off their spin detectors and sit defenseless to the premeditated spin-doctoring of the MSM.
 
178Perm Dude
      ID: 40329307
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 17:19
WND has been slandered as if they've never said a true word in their lives

No, they've been attacked for pretending to be a news organization which slandering Democrats and for lying.

If WND were a person, you would have cut all ties with him a long time ago. What is the point of finding "nuggets" (whatever that is--apparently "of truth") amongst all the crap?

If a liberal news outlet had many times the success of finding these "nuggets" you would still call them too biased to be trusted. And that's what we say about WND.

If you are going to get defensive and try to circle your arms around WND to protect them from some kind of unfair criticism, at least understand what the critics are saying.
 
179Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 17:34
WND makes no claim to be neutral.

no, they don't.

however, they do make these claims:
We remain faithful to the traditional and central role of a free press in a free society – as a light exposing wrongdoing, corruption and abuse of power...

...Indeed, WorldNetDaily.com is a fiercely independent newssite committed to hard-hitting investigative reporting of government waste, fraud and abuse.


government fraud and abuse? if that were true, they'd be frothing about themselves with nearly every move the Bush regime makes.

remember, there was a time not so long ago - in the 3 or 4 years following 9/11, where the so-called MSM was on Bush's jock. generally speaking, his decisions were taken on blind faith and almost no one questioned the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act.

a couple of years later, as the haze lifted, people began to see the horrors in iraq, the horrors of the patriot act, and the horrors of much of the Bush administration.

then, and only then, did the Clinton-era bashing of the "libural media" really begin again.



 
180Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 18:15
As I recall the MSM did their level best to produce another self-fullfilling prophecy of Viet Nam quagmire in Afghanistan until the charge started looking unexpectedly silly and disappeared without apology.

The loyal opposition for the most part has their eye on the door from the first day.

If you have the time look back and see how long the honeymoon period lasted for Bush from Tree and Sarge.
 
181biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 18:21
My recollection is quite different. The main complaint I remember was that Bush was pulling troops out of Afghanistan with the job only half-done to throw them into his folly over in mesopotamia.

I recall saying (and I believe I was echoed by MSM), that we need to dedicate the time, money and troops to completely stamp out the Taliban and rebuild Afganistan or they will return in force, and we will lose the hearts of the people.

Sounds about like what we are seeing now.

George Bush is either a complete fool, or he is an outright evil-doer. I will be charitable and continue to call him simply a fool.
 
182Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 18:50
MSM claim to be the definition of objectivity. They claim to have a monopoly on defining reality.

In my opinion, this is true only with regard to mainstream print and for the time being, network news. With the emergence of the web and Fox News totally changing the game, I'm not sure that CNN and MSNBC know what they are at all anymore.

FOX claims to present a balanced report, that you will hear both sides. That is why they make a fair analogy for comparison to the track record of the MSM. I think they deliver infinitely moreso than the MSM.

Not only does the MSM not live up to the claim FOX makes...


You fail to realize how the priority of 'objectivity' appears to have been all but trumped by 'balance' on cable. I think you have done a terrible disservice to yourself as a news watcher by failing to fully ponder the difference. It is not at all insignificant.

And even if you believe 'balanace' is a better approach than objectivity, it is not something any information outlet can successfully live up to as it ever further blurs the difference betwen news and entertainment. How can any show anchored by openly opinionated talking heads like Neil Cavuto or Keith Olberman possibly be truly balanced?

And with network tv losing more and more ground to other media, I don't know how much longer we'll seem objectivity prioritized (earnestly or not) in their newsrooms, either.
 
183Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 01, 2007, 12:01
MITH

At this point I am three decades beyond expecting objectivity.

While I'd love to hold FOX to the standard of perfect objectivity, even settling for the european model of openly left and right partisan media is a step up from the deceptive situation we have now.

When the zeitgeist openly acknowleges that the MSM are not objective and need some other source to balance their biased subjective nature out then I will be on my way to calming down over this subject.
 
184Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, May 01, 2007, 13:24
At this point I am three decades beyond expecting objectivity.

fixed that for ya.
 
185Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 01, 2007, 14:00
With all due respect, B, Tree's point is fair enough. Your model of objectivity refers to the Save Our Wetlands issue as the "the nub of the matter" of the Hurricane Katrina disaster.

Re that issue, I won't say that it couldn't have received greater coverege on TV and in print but

a: what reading up on the issue I did last week showed that there were considerable differences of opinion, including from Army Corps of Engineers, on whether the origial barrier plan would have prevented the flooding of NO and whether that can even be determined, and

b: you can't accurately say how much coverege it actually got at the time, anyway.

And again, if you disagree strongly enough to revisit SOWL in depth, lets do so where that topic belongs, in the thread linked in post 131.
 
186Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Mon, May 21, 2007, 19:06
Evidence you can't trust the power elite and conservatives can't trust FOX NEWS, or Rupert Murdock.

Murdock personally spiked stories negative of the Clintons

The story is about multiple cases of Murdock spiking stories and advertising negative of the Clintons in his NY POST but we can reasonably infer he would be willing to do the same at FOX NEWS.
 
187Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Mon, May 21, 2007, 19:31
we can reasonably infer he would be willing to do the same at FOX NEWS.

And the Simpsons!
 
188Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 11:34
Yet another propaganda report from WND staff that includes little or no objectitity or balance. No account from Murdoch's office or the even a described attempt to contact Murdoch or the Post or News Corp on the suit or the allegations.

Why, exactly, should I believe WND and a professional gossip columnist who is trying to win a lawsuit after being fired for allegedly using his position to extort tens of thousands of dollars over anyone?

Why should I trust the discretion of Baldwin, who (despite his well known distaste for trial lawyers and Democrats) will eagerly rush to believe the account of a lawyer with a bone to pick and some Democrat Senator from decades past over various university studies, at least one government investigation and more than one engineer with the USACoE on assessments regarding a major civil engineering project researched and constructed by the USACoE?
 
189Perm Dude
      ID: 10414228
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 11:57
I think we can "reasonably infer" that Dow Jones would look quite a bit like that article: Baseless propoganda mascarading as "news" without sources.

As WND reported last year, a television ad critical of President Clinton was accepted by CNN but rejected by Fox News. A spokesman for the cable channel told WND the ad was not accepted because it made an undocumented claim about the former president.

Let's play "spot the factual error."
 
190Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 22:39
Why should I trust the discretion of Baldwin, who (despite his well known distaste for trial lawyers and Democrats) will eagerly rush to believe the account of a lawyer with a bone to pick and some Democrat Senator from decades past over various university studies, at least one government investigation and more than one engineer with the USACoE on assessments regarding a major civil engineering project researched and constructed by the USACoE?

You'll even defend FOX NEWS if WND pokes a hole?

BTW you need to actually read your own links. Just the fact that you can find SOWL's rebuttal on their site doesn't mean squat. Just having presented a rebuttal doesn't mean squat. You still have to consider the source and consider the actual strength of the argument.

Forget for a moment the odds that a university is going to objectively report that environmentalists and the legal structure they put in place doomed N.O...

I think they all but admitted flat out that the ACoE defenses in place very nearly saved the richest sections of N.O. and that the addition of seagates would have provided the margin for error needed to save it.

Ironically liberals actually have a case in there that the power structure protected rich N.O. better than poor N.O. [a class warfare bonanza]but to get into the details would damn the environmentalists and their process which doomed N.O.

Saving sacred cows before poor people I guess.
 
191Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 00:06
You'll even defend FOX NEWS if WND pokes a hole?

Thats a stupid thing to say. Look over this thread and you'll see a vast difference between my posts regarding Fox and WND.

Fox New Channel is mainstream media with a rightist slant rather than the typical leftist slant. Their bias is more open and I take some issue with their principle of balance over objectivity. WND material is simple propaganda that deliberately disregards any and all facts and events that don't mesh with their agenda.

You are cornered and now must refuse to acknowledge the difference between a bias and and a near absolute omission of counterpoints in almost every story. Don't worry, there are plenty enough fools who don't and won't see it and continue to feed the lie.
 
192Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 06:23
Oh my, where would we ever get the liberal POV? WND is censoring it so who can know the balancing POV?

Only 365 days a year of MSM to balance WND, that's all.
 
193Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 09:25
Change the discussion if you want, tough guy, but my question remains unanswered; why would I trust a propaganda rag, a disgraced gossip columnist/extortionist and your displayed disregard for even your own standards of accountability over anyone?

Obviously, your standards for reliablility fly out the window when you're trying to support your own agenda. You'll never seen me disregard a news item out of hand for the sole reason that it came from FOX. Do you think I can say the same about you when the only opposition to your position on a particular topic comes from a trial lawyer and a single Democrat Senator? Please! You'd disregard them out of hand based solely on their professions and political affiliation.

Unless, as we see, they happen to be on your side.

I wonder if you would have been so willing and fast to immolate your own integrity here in years past.
 
194Perm Dude
      ID: 47415248
      Fri, May 25, 2007, 21:59
FOX cutting back on Iraqi War coverage.

No surprise there. There isn't all that much good news for them. But to ensure that they don't accidently cover any "news" to fill the gap:

If Fox was less focused on the Iraq War, what took its place? Mostly—according to the numbers—Anna Nicole Smith. Coverage of her death trailed just barely the airtime spent on the Iraq policy debate, accounting for 9.6% of all the Fox content studied (versus 10.1% for the Iraq policy debate).
 
195Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 26, 2007, 00:32
MSNBC and CNN were no different.
 
196Perm Dude
      ID: 1464918
      Sun, Jul 01, 2007, 19:31
JibJab with another good one
 
197Perm Dude
      ID: 386132511
      Wed, Jul 25, 2007, 12:53
Embarrasing Republican? Make him a Dem!
 
198Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Oct 27, 2007, 10:40
TPM - Fox News Tells McCain Not To Use Fox Footage On Web Site -- But Lets Rudy (And Romney) Use It
 
199sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Oct 27, 2007, 10:55
typical of FOX reporting style too though. They dont so much "report" the news, as try and make/manufacture/fabricate it.