Forum: pol
Page 2203
Subject: Isn't anybody against political correctness?


  Posted by: Jazz Dreamers - [34043123] Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 03:20

Remember the time when conservatives (rightly) stood up to prevent unpopular views from being silenced by outraged people who were offended by the idea expressed? And the term political correctness was coined, which suggested that you had to toe the line of mainstream thought in order to get acceptance on sensitive issues. One bad consequence was that honest and open discussion about race, for example, was severely damaged, as it became all too easy to label some a racist.

Society becomes stronger when we are willing to listen to ideas we don't like, especially ones (such as in the case of Professor Ward Churchill) are offensive and repulsive. It's fine to disagree with him; it's fine to tear his argument to pieces. It's not a good idea to silence him. While the essay that has ignited the controversy is inflammatory and poorly written, his ideas on 9/11 that he announced in a public statement today are not completely ridiculous. (Whereas what he says in his essay is so over the top that whatever points he might be trying to make are completely overshadowed by the offensive tone.) They are certainly not mainstream, and one could make a case that he's wrong on most of his points -- but his ideas are a contribution to academic debate. (I'd have no problem seeing him get canned if all of his writings were as poorly written as the essay that's been passed around. Presumably, that's not the case, and certainly nobody has offered any evidence to suggest that it is the case.)

Not that I expect that will matter. He will be quoted on the worst of what he wrote, and Republicans are going to make this a taxpayer issue. I'll be interested if the other faculty at Colorado or other institutions will stand up for Churchill. This is a really bad sign for the notion of academic freedom and the marketplace of ideas, something which I fear most Americans don't buy into anymore; and I also fear that some politicians would love to cash in on this. See Governor Bill Owens' statement below. (I suspect his opinion is much more popular than mine.)

February 1, 2005

Dear Friends:

We have come to a teaching moment at the University of Colorado. I applaud every person on the University of Colorado campus who has come to speak out against the indecent, insensitive and inappropriate comments and writings of Ward Churchill.

All decent people, whether Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, should denounce the views of Ward Churchill. Not only are his writings outrageous and insupportable, they are at odds with the facts of history. The thousands of innocent people - and innocent they were - who were murdered on September 11 were murdered by evil cowards. Indeed, if anyone could possibly be compared to the evildoers of Nazi Germany, it is the terrorists of the 21st century who have an equally repugnant disregard for innocent human life.

No one wants to infringe on Mr. Churchill's right to express himself. But we are not compelled to accept his pro-terrorist views at state taxpayer subsidy nor under the banner of the University of Colorado. Ward Churchill besmirches the University and the excellent teaching, writing and research of its faculty.

Ideas have consequences, and words have meaning. If there is one lesson that we hope that all Coloradans take from this sad case - and especially our students - it is that civility and appropriate conduct are important. Mr. Churchill's views are not simply anti-American. They are at odds with simple decency, and antagonistic to the beliefs and conduct of civilized people around the world. His views are far outside the mainstream of civil discourse and useful academic work.

His resignation as chairman of the Ethnic Studies Department was a good first step. We hope that he will follow this step by resigning his position on the faculty of the University of Colorado.

Sincerely,

Bill Owens


(Sorry, I'm a little too lazy to find some goods links. The essay is available online, as his public statement, the governor's statement, and I think a statement from CU. If I get a chance, I'll post this info tomorrow.)
 
1azdbacker
      ID: 3111461211
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 03:29
So you would infringe on Mr. Owens' right to denounce the beliefs of others? Isn't that HIS right?

This is a really good sign that morons may not receiving taxpayer money to foist their opinions on ignorant college students. (I'm in college right now, and ignorant is a good description of 95% of them).

Bottom line, American tax dollars were never meant to be spent on anti-American ideas. Then again, they were never meant to be spent on public universities. I'd likely get kicked out of a job at a University for saying that. And that's much less controversial, it's a fact.
 
2azdbacker
      ID: 3111461211
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 03:32
Again, this is just a plea for him to resign. And an opinion.

There is no termination here, no firing, because unlike the real world, professors don't need to not embarrass rheir employers and piss off anyone else with a mind to think with in order to keep their job.
 
3Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 03:38
The public statement by Churchill and his 2001 essay

I guess I need to put a warning out there that you could be offended reading this. For those people who don't want to stomach whatever pain comes about from reading something offensive about a sensitive topic, please don't go to the link.

You'll also a wide disparity between what he says in his statement (controversial points that are relatively well-argued) and his essay (an irrational ranting that's written to preach to the choir). I'm not really sure why he believes his views are being distorted -- people have pretty accurately characterized what he said in the essay. One would hope that the book he refers to is much better written than this essay. The essay appears to have been written on 9/11/01. I am not sure what "Pockets of Resistance" is; presumably it's not an academic journal, as no legitimate academic journal would publish such nonsense as this essay in question. (I'll try to look further into whether this essay ever appeared in publication in an academic work -- I'll be the first to criticize that, as the essay has no indication of scholarship whatsoever.)

I also think it should be pointed out that I have yet to see a public statement denouncing the threats made toward Mr. Churchill and Hamilton College (where he was scheduled to speak), despite the several statements made denouncing Mr. Churchill's offensive essay. (I hope that some have denounced the threats to violence where they haven't been recorded, but I unfortunately can't cite a single example myself. And corrections to this observation if I am wrong would be welcome.)
 
4Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 03:52
Where did I suggest that Mr. Owens shouldn't have made his comments? I actually applaud him for making his opinion known on this issue. I just think he's wrong. I don't know why you think I want to infringe on his right to speak.

My hope with this thread is to spark debate, and especially to make me think, because I suspect that I have a minority opinion here. I think I am right and I would like to debate this topic, defending my views but open to the possibility that I could be wrong.

I would support anyone questioning the use of taxpayer money to fund public universities as much as I would Mr. Churchill. I'd even be more interested in hearing what they have to say, because even though I don't agree with that opinion either, I'd be interested to see the reasons mentioned and whether they address the reasons I believe taxpayer money should be spent on public universities. It would be an interesting debate, and I might come away with a changed opinion, if the presentation is convincing enough.

At what job would you be fired for disseminating a ranting essay about your political opinions? As far as I know, anyone trying to fire you for this reason would have severe legal obstacles to overcome. And this is good, because I'd hate to see someone get fired simply because their political opinions embarrassed their boss, be it Rupert Murdoch or George Soros.

To me, a serious issue is whether Mr. Churchill wrote this essay in order to communicate with people who shared his political beliefs, or whether he intended this essay to be part of his academic portfolio. I frankly haven't been able to find out much in this regard. If it is the former, then this story is a big to-do over nothing, in my opinion. If it is the latter, then there is a serious discussion that needs to be had over scholarship and what constitutes a scholarly work.
 
5Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 05:35
Let his ideas thrive on their own 'merit' in the marketplace of ideas, not in the insular walls of acedemia, made unimpeachable by tenure rules, made profitable by the government he seeks to destroy.
 
6Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 08:49
Ward Churchill wasn't fired from anything - Colorado has taken no action against him and he still "teaches" there. I'm not sure I follow what action against Churchill you're concerned about. Care to make that clear? Are you saying that representatives of the University or the government shouldn't make clear statements denouncing Churchill for the supremem idiot that he is?
 
7Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 09:00
So people shouldn't give speaches on college campuses? Seems a bit unworkable.

And, as usual, you appear to have this issue ass-backwards.

Owens is calling for Churchill to resign from the school precisely because he doesn't like his views.
 
8Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 09:18
Owens is calling for Churchill to resign from the school precisely because he doesn't like his views.

And this is wrong because....? Should the University retain Klan faculty? Nazi/holocaust apologists (Wait don't answer that one.) Some ideas are so backward, so off base that they get a hard rejected. They are not the prodct of good scholarship and evidence a weak or diseased mind. The purveyors of those ideas shouldn't get a free pass just becaused they're tenured - they should be called on the mat.
 
9Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 09:25
MBJ: Can you say that Churchill's points are at the "fire in a crowded theater" point? As much as I dislike Churchill's points, his writings don't rise to the level (or lower to the the level) of a KKK member, or other "backwards" thinkers.

How is trying to stiffle Churchill any kind of call to the mat? Calling him on it means to engage in debate. That's not what Owens is doing. He's saying "I don't like what you are saying so I'm going to try to get you fired."
 
10Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 10:32
What does "crying fire in crowded theatre" have to do with this? That's the standard for when the State can force you to shut up. No one's doing that here - Churchill's being criticized by government officials - the 1st Amendment doesn't act as a shield to criticism of unpopular speech. The government does not have to be viewpoint neutral on matters such as this - it can take sides and do so publicly and vocally.

I must have honestly missed the part where Owens has made attempts to use his position to get Churchill fired - all I read about was criticism of his views and wish that he would resign.
 
11Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 178511913
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 10:44
MBJ, I agree with you that his essay is a pile of trash. If this were his typical submission to a journal, he never would have gotten tenure, and if he somehow did, his tenure should absolutely be revoked.

But if you read his public statement, and give him the benefit of the doubt that his scholarly writings are done more professionally than the essay (which as far as I can tell was written on the day of 9/11/2001 -- clearly indicative of the fact that it was a stream-of- consciousness rambling), then I don't see why his views don't belong in academic discussions.

FWIW, I think there is too much of a liberal bias within academic institutions, and that there should be an effort to encourage a wider range of views. I also think that the primary purpose of a scholar should be to do academic research, not to become an activist in any cause. (I do think you have to allow faculty to be active in political causes and the such, and that it's unreasonable to require them to keep this a big secret. But it also shouldn't dominate their scholarly life to the point that they stop doing objective research -- something I am afraid that happens too often.)

MBJ, my primary disagreement with you is that any idea should be allowed in academic discussion provided that there is a high level of scholarship in the work. The reason that many Klan apologies shouldn't appear is not that we should be pressuring people not to write on these topics, but rather because the evidence isn't that great.

The problem with getting rid of Churchill because you find his ideas offensive is that this becomes the easy way to get rid of people. The left is notorious for trying to silence people -- look at the reaction that Larry Summers received for his controversial remarks. THAT IS BAD! There are people trying to get Summers to step down, because they found his remarks offensive.

I'll be the first to admit that I find Churchill's comments way more offensive than Summers'. But if we're going to have the taxpayers decide which ideas are the most offensive to them, then America has truly lost faith in the whole university system. Which may very well be the case.

What's the difference between Larry Summers and Ward Churchill? Obviously, the degree of offense taken. Do you really want to make the principle of who gets to air their views at a university how odious the general populace finds them? What happens when people find the idea of bombing Iraqis offensive, so we stop discussing whether we should invade Iraq? Or when we find the idea of changing the social security system offensive, so we stop discussing whether we should modify it?

People are very talented at taking offense. As I said earlier, the left has acquired notoriety in its reliance on this tactic in the past. Why on earth the right wants to embrace it on an intellectual level is beyond me. (And in fairness, several conservatives have said that they believe Churchill should be allowed to speak.)

As a side note, if this isn't clear, I am not mad at Bill Owens for expressing his view and I certainly don't want to silence him. I just think he's wrong on this issue, and that there is a very different "teaching moment" that could be taken from this whole controversy.

Finally, I think Churchill's title of his book is ironic, because "Coming home to roost" might aptly describe the left's use of political correctness to try to keep right- wing ideas off campus. Maybe the left (or at least the large subset guilty of political correctness) will see why they shouldn't have been saying things like Larry Summers should resign. (The main point I am trying to get at is this: look at the Summers and Churchill cases and see what's really going on -- people want to avoid hearing ideas that are offensive to them. Really, the benefit of having ideas discussed openly and debated critically far exceeds the minimal (if any) value that is had in protecting people from being offended.)
 
12Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 178511913
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 10:53
MBJ -- there's nothing wrong with Owens saying what he did, or even if he did say that Churchill should be fired (as I believe one Colorado Congressman did).

We could end up in this ridiculous loop. There's nothing wrong with us criticizing Owens etc., and we aren't asking that they be fired, etc. Obviously, everybody has a right to express his point of view.

I guess the issue at hand is: should Churchill be fired? If so, on what grounds? Is it relevant in what context the essay was written (what I mean is, does it matter if this essay was circulated among friends versus whether he put this essay down on his CV as a piece of schoarly work)? If there is a basis for firing Churchill, could it be applied to someone like Larry Summers as well?

My answers are: no; the only grounds would be inappropriate actions toward a student or an unprofessional approach toward scholarly work; yes; I don't know (there's some similarity between the two situations, but maybe someone can find a key difference that I missed) but I feel very strongly that Summers shouldn't be fired or forced to step down, no matter how many people were offended by them.

(PS for MBJ -- I still intend to get back to the gay marriage issue and try to do better research of the legal history of polygamy. And I still feel like a jerk (which I was) for the tone of my response, so I hope you can forgive me for that.)
 
13Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 11:03
JD - you're taking me wrong. I'm the last one to argue that certain subjects are outside the arena of public debate. Sure, lets debate whether the 09/11 victims got what they had comin' to 'em. You weren't around then - but we had that very case made on these boards while the bodies were still smoking. I'm just saying that government officials don't have to sit by and say nothing about it.

What's the difference between Larry Summers and Ward Churchill? Obviously, the degree of offense taken.

Well, remember, Summers is employed by a private concern, not the State; that's the biggest difference as it pertains to their right to speak.

That's a good example, though. Be specific and tell me what the difference in reaction was to Churchill's and Summers' statements. Both men were roundly criticized. Both were subject to ruminitions about the need for them to resign. I still haven't heard what the objection is to government officials criticizing Churchill.

The State can't fire Churchill because he has unpopular views (though they can if he has lousy ones); they can criticize his views publicly though. DO we disagree on this?
 
14Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 11:19
I don't think there is any way the alum are gonna sit still for him remaining so I don't think it is a matter of resigning willingly. If this kind of America hatred were under-represented in acedamia I might be more inclined to worry about censorship of leftward thot.
 
15Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 3083119
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 12:01
MBJ -- I think we are in agreement. I absolutely believe Governor Owens has every right to state his views on Churchill or any other matter.

My only objection is that his views are the usual political correctness, and I hope that people disagree with him on that point. I certainly want him to be heard, and also hope people disagree with him. (Similar in this regard as to how I feel about Mr. Churchill.)

Maybe I just like disagreeing a bit too much? :)
 
16azdbacker
      ID: 3111461211
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:27
Is it even possible nowadays to stifle someone's right to free speech, what with the internet and all? I don't believe it is.

I understand your points and concerns, JD, but if free speech in a broader context truly existed in America, employers everywhere (like they do in Arizona) would have the right to fire their employees for any reason whatsoever. Sure, the idiot can say what he wants. And sure, his employer ought to be able to fire him for being an idiot.
 
17Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:34
College campuses however are a different matter.
 
18Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:40
There is no right be paid for saying idiotic things, let alone is there an obligation on the part of the taxpayer to support such speech.
 
19Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:43
Actually, one of the reasons that tenure exists is to give protection to those who are employed to give such speech. Once you are tenured, you do have a right to be paid for speech the employer might disagree with.
 
20Sludge
      ID: 54692111
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:44
Well, technically, PD, you don't have the "right", but you have a certain degree of protection.
 
21Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:48
And the alum have the right to defund the institution. Maybe the tenured profs and the airline employees can split the costs of a celebration when they've brought down their institutions.
 
22Toral
      ID: 22731114
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:52
Bill Owens was until recently a popular choice for the "conservative" GOP candidate for President in 2004. His star declined when the GOP got cleaned state-wide in Colorado last year, even with Bush carrying the state.

Nevertheless, I am uncomfortable with his comments -- specifically his last paragraph, where he urges Churchill's resignation. It doesn't cross the line , but it comes closer than I would like. I do not know what influence the governor in Colorado has with university funding.

I am a believer in academic freedom, and in tenure. It protects incompetents, yes (a bigger problem on the whole IMO) and people with highly disagreeable views as well. But on balance, the liberty it gives to academics to develop and propound ideas against the consensus of the times is worth it.

mbj I'm just saying that government officials don't have to sit by and say nothing about it.

No, they don't have to. They can denounce them. I personally would prefer that they stay out of the area of recommending, or even hoping, that they leave their jobs.

Toral

 
23biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:58
I agree with Toral. To the extent (perhaps non-existant) that the governor influences hiring and firing, Owens was out of line.

When I originally read it, I read it as if it were his boss asking for a resignation, which I would view as a serious impingement upon freedom of speech. Upon re-read, it was less than that, though I would like to know to what extent less, i.e., does Owen's grand-standing here actually have some influence on the Dean or whomever is responsible for really asking for his resignation.

I have some related opinions on tenure and free speech on campuses, but this isn't really the place.
 
24Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 13:59
Sludge, I wasn't referring to a constitutional right, but a contractual one. I should have been more clear.
 
25Madman
      ID: 3817420
      Fri, Feb 04, 2005, 21:32
Well, I'm a bit late to the discussion, and I'm not exactly sure what I can add. I would suggest that even though taxpayers pay for state run institutions, a reasonable wall should be established between them ... You can fund the education, but not directly interfere in the workings of the institution ... that would be my rule of thumb.

Calling for Churchill's resignation, however, didn't go over the line, although it pushes it. As a professor at a state institution, you do have a symbolic value, and you can easily argue that he has terribly -- and appropriately -- harmed CU's academic reputation (which has been getting hit hard lately for other things, as well). FWIW, this was largely the fault of other unnamed faculty who signed off on hiring Churchill in the first place.

But, in general, I would keep the academics in control of the academic debate. The exceptions are in the broad mission-wide mandates (i.e., do we want our State U to be a top-notch physics program or astrology?), and perhaps in the design of the University itself including and/or the existence of additional academic disciplines, which appears to need some sort of outside control anymore.

In point of fact, I would actually question Churchill's academic credentials and not so quickly assume that the 9/11 memo is the exception and the later letter is the rule. I just don't know, and I tend to be suspicious of "ethnic studies" professors ... It's always seemed to me that this sort of thing belongs either in history or in sociology (which I also might consider nixing) or anthropology, etc. I view these newer departments as more an escape from traditional academic rigors than as a necessary growth that reflects valuable and burgeoning knowledge and specialization. But, that's just me, perhaps.
 
26sarge33rd
      ID: 180522216
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 09:14
The State can't fire Churchill because he has unpopular views...

cant speak for Colorado since I am not aware of any "right to work" laws which may exist there, but in Iowa for ex, any employer can fire any employee for ANY reason or even no reason at all. (Subject of course to potential breach of contract suits, etc etc) Point is, they most certainly can fire him because of unpopular views. They may publicly cite another reason, but the views could very well be the motivating factor behind any action to terminate.
 
27katietx
      ID: 18033016
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 09:32
He's a tenured professor...be very, very difficult (if not impossible) to fire him simply for his point of view, even if it is idiotic.
 
28Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 10:56
sarge - when the State is your employer (as oppposed to a private employer) the 1st Amendement puts limitations on the State, as employer, on retaliating against employee speech. It has nothing to do with "right to work" laws - whatever those may be.

Iowa does hae prohibition against tortious or wrongful terminations.
 
29Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 481152817
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 11:32
The First Amendment protects idiots like Churchill.

It also protects idiots like Sarge, Tree, Katie, Baldwin, Toral and myself.

I'd love nothing more than to throw this guy to the wolves, but if we're going to throw people like this into jail or make them lose their livelihood, then where does it stop?

CU should calm down, wait two years and build a good performance declining papertrail on this guy (made up or not), then when the heat dies down, can him.

Did he damage CU's reputation? You bet he did. What do we do if *shudder* a Democrat is in the White House and a right wing professor preaches states rights, low taxes or gives a powerful anti-gay speech? Would we then be justified (via prior precedence with Churhill) to fire him as well?

Once things like this (canning people for saying dumb things) start, it'll be impossible to stop and the victims will be those on the opposite side of whomever is in the White House at the time.

I say protect the Constitution and if the State of Colorado takes action, so be it.
 
30Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 12:37
Nice post, CCP.
 
31Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 15:00
I tend to agree with people that Governor Owens action is not out of line, though getting a bit close to dangerous territory. The only wrong that he has committed (in my view) is on the intellectual level; I believe that in trying to silence Professor Churchill, he is encouraging the idea of "political correctness", albeit in this case it is the majority of Americans (rather than the majority of academics) who are deciding upon what is "politically correct" on this matter. The main point is that even if the majority is right, silencing the minority viewpoint is usually a bad idea.

I also share Madman's suspicions regarding ethnic studies and other buzz fields in academia. There seems to be too much political correctness in these departments, and there does not appear to be a wide diversity of thought. On the whole, there is too little conservative thought in academia. I think that is bad for liberals, because their ideas don't get challenged enough, as well as for conservatives, because a lot of conservative ideas that sound appealing in popular public debate might not pass muster when subjected to the higher standards of academic scholarship.

To me, academia faces two crises on the intellecutal level. One is a problem with diversity of viewpoints. While I do think it exists and that more effort should be made to look for conservative voices, I think this problem has tended to be overstated. The second problem is one of maintaining high standards for scholarship. This one is mentioned much less frequently, and is much more serious in my opinion.

Of course, academia also faces more serious practical problems, most prominently the fact that it is a huge business with a lot of profit motive. I am not sure how much longer universities will be able to operate on a principled basis. As it is, many decisions in academia are made with financial aspects being a major, if not primary, driving force. I think college sports is one obvious example of this.

Also re #25, when you refer to CU's other academic problems, were you referring to the controversy surrounding the football program? Or other problems the school is having as well?

I somewhat tempted to try to find Churchill's book (On the Justice of Bringing the Chickens Home to Roost is the title I think) in the campus library and perusing it so I can give some comment on its scholarly quality (limited by the fact that I don't study any social science myself).

I would tend to think any essay written on 9/11 would not be a general reflection of one's highest scholarly capacities, since it was a very emotional time. He at least should have used more obscure jargon and lots of footnotes in his scholarly work. ;) (Though in all seriousness, some of the ideas in his public statement could be fleshed out into a scholarly work of reasonable quality, so I'm curious to see if that is what he actually did.)
 
32Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 20:15
CCP

Tenure needs a reality check. Educators should have some standards. 'Criminally stupid' is not an acceptable qualification for that job.
 
33Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 20:23
Baldwin, are you asserting that Professor Churchill is 'criminally stupid'? On what basis do you draw such a conclusion?

Or is your comment about tenure in general and not necessarily connected to this professor?
 
34Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 20:32
You think it is ok for an 'educator' to advocate deadly revolutionary violence his whole carreer? I cry for 'the children'.
 
35sarge33rd
      ID: 612919
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 20:47
having read Churchill's piece, I don't honestly see what all the uproar is about. Yes, he goes overboard and draws some inappropriate comparisons in the original, but the followup does a decent job of clarification IMHO.

The entire gist of his writing, as far as I can tell, is more a "warning" to the government and by extension then, the electorate. IF you do "A" and "B", then eventually "C" will follow and you really shouldn't be surprised by that fact.

For "A", the Professor sees American involvement in activities where in his opinion...we should not be involved. "B" then becomes the support of the American people and "C" obviously refers to some form of backlash or undesireable result initiated by those who percieve themselves as having been "wronged" by our involvement "A".

This is neither anything new in the way of a revelation nor is it in itself terribly insulting to say. Perhaps the comparisons were more than abit inappropriate (specifically the reference to "little Eichmanns"), but again...in the followup the Professor points out that Eichmann was largely an enabler. In a very real sense, much of the work done by those whose offices were housed by the Twin Towers, did in point of fact, enable our system to function. (Witness the economic disaster which resulted from 9/11.)

Once one sets aside the emotional impact of 9/11, and looks at the Professors words in the light of cold logic, IF you accept his premise, then his conclusions are valid. If however you reject his premise, then of course his conclcusions would also be rejected.

Are we now to begin silencing dissent simply because some draw insult from said dissent? I for one, certainly hope not. If we decide to silence (via threat of loss of earning capacity) academia, then we as a society have taken a very large step down a very, VERY dangerous path.
 
36Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:20
The guy sits in front of children and tells them they are legitimate targets of terrorism and a billion muslims have every moral right to walk up to them and slit their throat.

No cause for uproar there, Sarge.
 
37Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 481152817
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:21
Baldwin: My only concern in this issue is that where do we draw the line in terms of what is fireable speech and what is not?

If we are capable of doing that, then sign me up and I'll be all for throwing this guy to an angry mob of 9/11 widows/widowers.

Not for one minute do I defend what he said (I am not implying that you accuse me of such.) and not only was what he said inappropriate, but offensive and grossly incorrect on many levels.

If I was in charge, his punishment would be to spend a week in a dark room with the sons of the firefighters, policeman, and civilians who died that day.

I reassert my position that the Constitution needs to be protected in this case and that its an issue of state's rights. It is a university funded largely (presumably) by state money and the tuition of the students who attend.

 
38sarge33rd
      ID: 612919
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:32
Baldwin, I see that you are still utterly incapable of grasping simple concepts.

1) These are college kids he speaks to. Not 1st graders. Most every 20 yr old zI know of, would take offense to your referring to them as "children".

2) Churchill's piece does not emphatically state that we are legitimate targets, but rather that in the minds of those who perpetrate the attacks...we are legitimate targets. He does explain abit as to how they legitamize their targets, ie financial centers, command and control, etc etc.

3) To further enlighten abit of what Churchill does bring forth which perhaps NEEDS to be viewed under the light of day, why is it OK for the US military to engage and create collateral damage, but not for our enemies to do the same?

This man has every right to state his case and make it as emphatically as you have the right to stand before an auditorium and preach your interpretation of the bible.
 
39Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:32
In case anyone was still wondering what all those campus takeovers were about in the 1960's...

...it was to destroy the system of hiring, promotion and firing of professors so that it would favor people like Churchill.

 
40sarge33rd
      ID: 612919
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:35
damn. and I thought they were largely to burn draft offices and protest VN.
 
41bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:41
Uh, no it wasn't Baldwin. I was there, and the protests were almost exclusively expressing feelings re: the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam, and to a lesser extent about civil rights as they pertained to blacks.
 
42Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:42
They didn't have to have a sit-in in the presidents office to do that Sarge. They only gave up those sit-ins after the universities caved in regarding who controlled the future make-up of the faculty.

Don't be stupid and flippant Sarge. It only degrades the board.
 
43Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:45
Churchill's piece does not emphatically state that we are legitimate targets, but rather that in the minds... - Sarge


Churchill's original essay does not say american civilians are guilty in the minds of muslims.

He says they are guilty period.
 
44Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 21:52
sarge, in fairness, I don't think that you can find those points in Churchill's essay itself. But I also think it is unreasonable to judge the man's academic position based on this essay. If people can find scholarly writings of his where he is as sloppy as he is in his essay, then a case could be made.

But with his public statement as evidence, sarge's interpretation of his views sounds plausible. Churchill's views may or may not be right, but they seem worth having in an open debate. And I don't think they qualify as 'criminally stupid' merely because they are not mainstream and are (in my judgment) a vast oversimplification of a complex problem.
 
45Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:02
You are too charitable JD.

Churchill's essay spends paragragh after paragraph trying to prove every last american man woman and child is guilty and to minimize it the way Sarge tries to as only the subjective views of Muslims is just wrong on every level.
 
46Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:11
Baldwin, do you think every person should be held responsible for the thoughts and feelings they had on 9/11?

*If* his book is as sloppy as his essay (which I agree is an emotional rant that *does* blame the victims -- a ridiculous assertion), then there's something wrong. (Not in the content of what he said, so much as the complete lack of evidence presented as well as the lack of any kind of structural organization to his writing.) If his book is more carefully written and asserts the views that Sarge interprets Churchill as intending (as indicated in his public statement), with reasonably intelligent arguments to back up his claims (albeit ones that most people would not agree with), why should we judge him on an emotional essay instead of on an actual work of scholarship?
 
47Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:16
The guy didn't make one sloppy essay so that he is only being hounded for sloppiness. He has held the same views expressed in that essay since he began his carreer.

That his most recent damage control features more careful dancing doesn't reflect his teaching as a whole.
 
48Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:27
While you are defending the right of this guy to say anything at all and be unfirable, there are real problems with free speech we are overlooking.

Public protest is not treated with First Amendment protection but with RICO prosecution now days.
 
49Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:30
You've actually read this guy's stuff? How can I take any of your post seriously since you are in no position to make such assertions?

I'm willing to admit that you could be right about his academic writing since I haven't actually seen it, but I'm getting more and more curious what he actually says in his book. Not for the content but for the level of thought involved. Are you asserting that you are certain that his book is at the same pathetically low intellectual level of his essay? And if so, on what do you base this assertion?
 
50Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:32
I know how radical he was from the start.
 
51Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:37
While you are defending the right of this guy to say anything at all and be unfirable, there are real problems with free speech we are overlooking.

1. I agree that there are other issues with free speech, and this one may not be the most important.

2. I guess my posts are too long-winded and boring for you to actually read them fully. I did not say that he should be able to say anything at all, or that he should be unfirable. In fact, I stressed what reasonable grounds for firing him are, and why I suspect (given the evidence I have in front of me) that this case does not meet those grounds.
 
52Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:52
"It's amazing that the more we look at Ward Churchill, the more outrageous, treasonous statements we hear from Churchill," Owens said. "Churchill has clearly called for violence against the state, and no country is required to subsidize its own destruction. That's what we're doing with Ward Churchill."

In the question-and-answer interview, Churchill is asked what should happen to America. "I want the state gone: Transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether."

Another question: What are the solutions to U.S. misdeeds? Churchill answers in the interview: "One of the things I've suggested is that it may be that more 9/11's are necessary."
 
53sarge33rd
      ID: 612919
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:00
and the difference between that and what was said amongst the British Colonists whom we now refer to as our Founding Fathers, would be......what exactly?

Point being, Freedom of Speech, means being free to voice opinions, thoughts and desires, which run contrary to what is widely viewed as desireable. Put an end to the voice of dissent, and you have just instituted a police state.
 
54Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:02
Am I really the only person here who sees the difference between free speech and government subsidized speech?
 
55Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:06
It's clear that Governor Owens doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'treasonous.'

Do you not understand the context of Churchill's statements? I don't agree with them, but to suggest that he is attempting to overthrow the government of the United States or to carry out terrorist attacks against America is absolutely ridiculous.

The grounds for firing Churchill are that his statements can be taken out of context to try to suggest that he is actively encouraging people to attack the United States and/or overthrow its government?
 
56Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:33
his statements can be taken out of context

No need, he repeats the same sorts of things ad nauseum. He is all about america's violent overthrow.

he is actively encouraging people

Generations of people. It's called 'teaching'.

he is actively encouraging people to attack the United States and/or overthrow its government?

Encouraging, justifying, easing their consciences, suggesting methods, all of the above.

 
57Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:37
When you're movement's lexicographer is Ann Coulter you'll have to be excused for the lack of few important meanings.

As for government subsidized speech I'd have to agree that Governor Owens would fall squarely into that camp.
 
58Baldwin
      ID: 5912468
      Sun, Feb 06, 2005, 09:32
One of the striking aspects of the Ward Churchill scandal is how public his views about America and terrorism were before all this happened. Churchill is the author of numerous books and articles expressing the view that America is a genocidal empire comparable to Nazi Germany, that terrorists are really freedom fighters and that the 9/11 atrocity was just deserts (these are of course also widespread views among American academics generally). In 1998 Churchill wrote a book called the Pacifism as Pathology which is essentially a case for violent revolution. So why did this all come out now?

The answer is that Churchill was invited as a second academic guest this spring by the professor in charge of a program at Hamilton College that brings lecturers and professors to campus. This professor is Nancy Rabinowitz (recently featured on FrontPage). Her first guest was Susan Rosenberg which caused a scandal and provoked reporters to examine Churchill's resume and turn up his notorious article. A further spur was a student at Hamilton whose father, killed in the terrorist attack of 9/11, was referred to by Churchill in the article as a "little Eichmann.") The scandal was caused by the fact that Rosenberg was a member of America's first political terrorist cult the Weather Underground, and was a convicted would be bomber (whom Clinton had pardoned). Rabinowitz invited Rosenberg because she is a political comrade. Rabinowitz is related by politics and marriage to Kathy Boudin and her network of Weatherman terrorists and supporters.

But what about Churchill? This puzzled me until I discovered that his 1998 book (The Pathology of Pacificism) is dedicated to Diana Oughton, herself a member of the Weatherman terrorist organization. Oughton inadvertently blew herself up making a bomb intended for a social dance at Fort Dix where it would have killed Army draftees and their dates. In other words, what has gone unnoticed in the media so far is that Nancy Rabinowitz's little academic program at Hamilton is actually a concerted effort to indoctrinate Hamilton students in the views of terrorist supporters. The only reason it is a scandal is that her timing is bad. Nancy, we're in the midst of a war on terror, in case you didn't notice. Actually, you probably did. Nice. - David Horowitz



 
59Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Tue, Feb 08, 2005, 11:03
Ward Churchill: Academic Fraud

Not to pile on but:


To the extent that Churchill was hired because he claimed to be a Native American, he would seem to be guilty of academic fraud. But the situation is worse than this.

Thomas Brown, a professor of sociology at Lamar University, has written a paper that outlines what looks like a more conventional form of academic fraud on Churchill's part. According to Brown, Churchill fabricated a story about the U.S. Army intentionally creating a smallpox epidemic among the Mandan tribe in 1837, by simply inventing almost all of the story's most crucial facts, and then attributing these "facts" to sources that say nothing of the kind.

"One has only to read the sources that Churchill cites to realize the magnitude of his fraudulent claims for them," Brown writes. "We are not dealing with a few minor errors here. We are dealing with a story that Churchill has fabricated almost entirely from scratch. The lack of rationality on Churchill's part is mind-boggling." (Brown's essay can be read here: http://hal.lamar.edu/~browntf/Churchill1.htm.)

Similar charges have been leveled against Churchill by University of New Mexico law professor John Lavelle, a Native American scholar who has documented what appear to be equally fraudulent claims on Churchill's part regarding the General Allotment Act, one of the most important federal laws dealing with Indian lands. (Lavelle also accuses Churchill of plagiarism).

 
60Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Feb 08, 2005, 11:10
Interesting, MBJ. One would expect people to dig into Churchill, but this seems like an unexpectedly rich mine.

I know some people at the University of New Mexico (but not Lavelle)--I'm going to drop them a note and feel them out on this.
 
61Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 12:04
I would tend to think any essay written on 9/11 would not be a general reflection of one's highest scholarly capacities, since it was a very emotional time.



So, given a few years to contemplate....


A University of Colorado professor under fire for comparing World Trade Center victims to a Nazi war criminal on Tuesday refused to apologize for his remarks.

"I am not backing off an inch," said Ward Churchill, drawing an ovation from a standing-room-only crowd of about 1,200 students and backers gathered in a ballroom. "I owe no one an apology.


AND this gem....

"I do not work for the taxpayers of Colorado, and I don't work for Bill Owens. I work for you," Churchill told the audience

What an arrogant jerk. how very revealing of the mindset of his type. If he doesn't work for the taxpayers, uh, can they stop paying him? Of course, not - - he's entitled to gorge his talentless self at the public trough while giving the people he despises so much, the taxpayers paying his bill, the finger.

 
62Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 12:05
Not to kick a guy, but a source tells me that Churchill is also has taken a position of "'outing'" members of AIM whom he suspects of complicity in the murder of Anna Mae Aquash."

pd
 
63Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 12:09
...and I've heard he kicks his dog.
 
64sarge33rd
      ID: 55152818
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 13:08
OK, it is starting to look like this guy probably does need to go. ASSUMING, he is fact guilty of the fraud reflected in post 59, that alone is sufficient reason to terminate his employment/association within my minds eye. All the rest, is simple compounding the weight in favor of following through with said termination.
 
65Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 178511913
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 16:34
Good work MBJ. I agree that Churchill seems a
questionable character, at best. I don't think he should
be fired merely because of his views. But his
scholarship and competence are legitimate grounds for
dismissal. It's a bit sad that gross incompetence can be
overlooked, while there's complete indignation when
something offensive is said. But I think the
overexaggeration and distortion of Churchill's remarks
are not nearly as bad as the (claimed) defincies in his
scholarship.

Of course, now Colorado University has a big problem
to deal with, since although there appear to be
legitimate grounds for firing him, Churchill probably
does have grounds for a lawsuit, given that the real
reason that they want to get rid of him is because of the
negative publicity he has generated.

I am becoming more and more skeptical that his other
writings are significantly better than his essay, which is
a piece of junk. I don't have a problem with him making
the general argument that he is trying to make; but I
agree there is good reason to seriously question his
general academic competence.
 
66Baldwin
      ID: 3512160
      Thu, Feb 10, 2005, 08:38
Ward Churchill, you have been owned...
The little Injun that could

© 2005 Universal Press Syndicate

If Ward Churchill loses his job teaching at the University of Colorado, he could end up giving Howard Dean a real run for his money to head the Democratic National Committee.

Churchill already has a phony lineage and phony war record – just like John Kerry! (Someone should also check out Churchill's claim that he spent Christmas 1968 at Wounded Knee.) In 1983, Churchill met with Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi and later felt it necessary to announce that his group, the American Indian Movement, "has not requested arms from the Libyan government." In 1997, he was one of the "witnesses" who spoke at a "Free Mumia" event in Philadelphia on behalf of convicted cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal.


Come to think of it, Churchill could give Hillary a run for her money. All that's left for Churchill to do now is meet with Al Sharpton and kiss Suha Arafat.

Churchill's claim that he is an Indian isn't an incidental boast, like John Kerry pretending to be Irish. It is central to his career, his writing, his political activism. Churchill has been the co-director of the American Indian Movement of Colorado, the vice chairperson of the American Indian "Anti-Defamation" Council, and an associate professor and coordinator of American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado.

By Churchill's own account, a crucial factor in his political development was "being an American Indian referred to as 'chief' in a combat unit" in Vietnam, which made him sad. This is known to con men everywhere as a "two-fer."

In addition to an absence of evidence about his Indian heritage, there is an absence of evidence that he was in combat in Vietnam. After the POW Network revealed that Churchill had never seen combat, he countered with this powerful argument: "They can say whatever the hell they want. That's confidential information, and I've never ordered its release from the Department of Defense. End of story." Maybe we should ask John Kerry to help Churchill fill out a form 180.

In one of his books, "Struggle for the Land," Churchill advances the argument that one-third of America is the legal property of Indians. And if you believe Churchill is a real Indian, he also happens to be part owner of the Brooklyn Bridge.

In his most famous oeuvre, the famed 9-11 essay calling the 9-11 World Trade Center victims "little Eichmanns," he said "Arab terrorists" – his quotes – had simply "responded to the massive and sustained American terror bombing of Iraq" by giving Americans "a tiny dose of their own medicine."

Having blurted out "Iraq" in connection with 9-11 in a moment of pique, Churchill had to backpedal when the anti-war movement needed to argue that Iraq had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Arab terrorism. He later attached an "Addendum" to the essay saying that the 9-11 attack was not only payback for Iraq, but also for various other of this country's depredations especially against "real Indians" (of which he is not one).

In light of the fact that Churchill's entire persona, political activism, curriculum vitae, writings and university positions are based on his claim that he's an Indian, it's rather churlish of him to complain when people ask if he really is one. But whenever he is questioned about his heritage, Churchill rails that inquiries into his ancestry are "absolutely indefensible."

Churchill has gone from claiming he is one-eighth Indian "on a good day" to claiming he is "three-sixteenths Cherokee," to claiming he is one-sixty-fourth Cherokee through a Revolutionary War era ancestor named Joshua Tyner. (At least he's not posing as a phony Indian math professor.) A recent investigation by the Denver Post revealed that Tyner's father was indeed married to a Cherokee. But that was only after Joshua's mother – and Churchill's relative – was scalped by Indians.

By now, all that's left of Churchill's claim to Indian ancestry is his assertion: "It is just something that was common knowledge in my family." (That, and his souvenir foam-rubber "tommyhawk" he bought at Turner Field in Atlanta.)

Over the years, there were other subtle clues the university might have noticed.

Churchill is not in the tribal registries kept since the 1800s by the federal government.

No tribe will enroll him – a verification process Churchill dismisses as "poodle papers" for Indians.

In 1990, Churchill was forced to stop selling his art as "Indian art" under federal legislation sponsored by then-representative – and actual Indian! – Ben Nighthorse Campbell, that required Indian artists to establish that they are accepted members of a federally recognized tribe. Churchill responded by denouncing the Indian artist who had exposed him. (Hey, does anybody need 200 velvet paintings of Elvis playing poker with Crazy Horse?)

In the early '90s, he hoodwinked an impecunious Cherokee tribe into granting him an "associate membership" by telling them he "wrote some books and was a big-time author." A tribal spokeswoman explained: He "convinced us he could help our people." They never heard from him again – yet another treaty with the Indians broken by the white man. Soon thereafter, the tribe stopped offering "associate memberships."

A decade ago, Churchill was written up in an article in News From Indian Country, titled, "Sovereignty and Its Spokesmen: The Making of an Indian." The article noted that Churchill had claimed membership in a scrolling series of Indian tribes, but over "the course of two years, NFIC hasn't been able to confirm a single living Indian relative, let alone one real relative that can vouch for his tribal descent claim."

When real Indians complained to Colorado University in 1994 that a fake Indian was running their Indian Studies program, a spokeswoman for the CU president said the university needed "to determine if the position was designated for a Native American. And I can't answer that right now." Apparently it was answered in Churchill's favor since he's still teaching.

If he's not an Indian, it's not clear what Churchill does have to offer a university. In his book, "A Little Matter of Genocide: Holocaust and Denial in the Americas, 1492 to the Present," Churchill denounces Jews for presuming to imagine the Holocaust was unique. In the chapter titled "Lie for Lie: Linkages between Holocaust Deniers and Proponents of the Uniqueness of the Jewish Experience in World War II," Churchill calls the Third Reich merely "a crystallization" of Christopher Columbus' ravages of his people (if he were an Indian).

His research apparently consisted of watching the Disney movie "Pocahontas," which showed that the Indians meant the European settlers no harm. (That's if you don't count the frequent scalpings.)

Even the credulous Nation magazine – always on red alert for tales of government oppression – dismissed Churchill's 1988 book "Agents of Repression" about Cointelpro-type operations against the American Indian Movement, saying the book "does not give much new information" and "even a reader who is inclined to believe their allegations will want more evidence than they provide." If The Nation won't buy your anti-U.S. government conspiracy theories, Kemosabe, it's probably time to pack up the old teepee and hit the trail of tears.

In response to the repeated complaints from Indians that a phony Indian was running CU's Indian Studies program, Churchill imperiously responded: "Guess what that means, guys? I'm not taking anyone's job, there wouldn't be an Indian Studies program if I wasn't coordinating it ... They won't give you a job just because you have the paper." This white man of English and Swiss-German descent apparently believes there are no actual Indians deserving of his position at CU. (No wonder the Indians aren't crazy about him.)

As long as we're all agreed that there are some people who don't deserve jobs at universities, why isn't Churchill one of them? - She Who Owns All She Surveys

 
67Texas Flood
      ID: 5813868
      Thu, Feb 10, 2005, 09:01
Curchill is a moron. If he wanted to take advantange of his "Native American" heritage he should have formed a corporation and opend a casino.
 
68Baldwin
      ID: 3512160
      Thu, Feb 10, 2005, 09:15
They might actually check to see if you are an Indian before handing you that license.

Maybe he can now switch his 'Most Favored Victim' status to 'slave' since he's been owned. More accurate, that one.
 
69Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 11:05
 
70Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 16:19
Raelians to bestow Honorary Priest title to Ward Churchill

This is just special:

Miami, Feb 10, 2005. Rael, leader of the International Raelian Movement (www.rael.org) has just given the "Honorary Priest" title to Ward Churchill (University of Colorado professor) for his essay which most of the US is decrying as insensitive or unpatriotic.

Ricky Roehr (leader of the US Raelian Movement) is quoted: "Mr. Churchill is exactly right in what he wrote! If we are to have peace, we must take responsibility for our part in the violence and stop handing out blame as if we have done nothing. Quite the contrary, we have done terrible things to countless people. [snip]

It's not too late. If the US were to spend only a portion of the time and money it spends for war and apply it toward aopolgies and actions toward reparations, we would become as we once were - a benevolent big brother instead of the big bully everyone hates but fears. And while we're apologizing, send one to Ward Churchill, too."


I think Churchill has found is optimal audience.

 
71Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 16:39
If only they could copy a hundred Ward Churchills...
 
72Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 18:17
You don't know that they haven't. They may have those Churchill clones all cryogenically frozen, just waiting, waiting........
 
73Baldwin
      ID: 431261023
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 18:18
Visit a hundred university history departments.
 
74Timing
      ID: 460272520
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 23:51
Did Baldwin really post another Coulter editorial? *smirk*
 
75sarge33rd
      ID: 35132922
      Sat, Feb 12, 2005, 01:27
question isnt did he, its; when doesnt he?
 
76Baldwin
      ID: 431261023
      Sat, Feb 12, 2005, 06:35
Countering the assertion of many in American academia, a Saudi official said extremist teachings, not poverty or unemployment, are the root causes of terrorism in the kingdom, the homeland of billionaire Osama bin Laden and 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers.

At a news conference in Riyadh, Labor Minister Ghazi Al-Gosaibi blamed the spread of terrorism on the "indoctrination that teaches young people they can kill justifiably" ...
He's heard of Ward Churchill?
Just two weeks ago, a Washington human-rights group released a year-long study concluding the government of Saudi Arabia is disseminating propaganda through American mosques that teaches hatred of Jews and Christians and instructs Muslims that they are on a mission behind enemy lines in a land of unbelievers.

The 89-page report by Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom, "Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques," concludes the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a "totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence."

The report says the fact it is "being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention."
In other news a professor who I take very seriously is possibly being fired for claiming 9/11 was an inside job.

He runs The Emporer's New Clothes' website. The world is so perverse, I am guessing this guy gets fired while Churchill and Saudi government sponsored terrorism indoctrination continue apace.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 1411237
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 04:24
The integrity of the good doctor comes into further question. [if he can really be called doctor, his alma mater can find no thesis on record]
Churchill, whose integrity has been challenged since news broke earlier last month of his paper blaming victims of 9-11 for the attacks, made an Indian-theme serigraph in 1981 called "Winter Attack" and printed 150 copies.

But one of the buyers, Duke Prentup, told Denver's CBS affiliate KCNC-TV of a stunning discovery he made last month while flipping through a book of illustrations by the late artist Thomas E. Mails.

The work signed by Churchill virtually is a mirror image of Mails' 1972 pen and ink sketch, "The Mystic Warriors of the Plains."

KCNC reporter Raj Chohan took a cameraman to Churchill's office Thursday to confront him with the revelation and received an angry response.

"Get that camera out of my face," Churchill said.

Chohan followed the professor down the hallway to his office, trying to show him Mails' piece and asking to explain why it "looks like you ripped it off."


Artwork signed by Ward Churchill (KCNC-TV, Denver)


Original artwork by Thomas Mails(KCNC-TV, Denver)

That prompted Churchill to take a swing at Chohan.

The reporter said: "Sir, that's assault, you can't do that. Can I ask you about this? It looks like you copied it."

Churchill: "I was just grabbed by the arm. And that [camera] gets out of my face."

Chohan: "Sir, we're allowed to take these pictures, this is a public space."

Churchill: "You're not allowed to grab me by the arm."

Chohan: "He didn't touch you sir, we've got it all on tape. Sir, this is called Winter Attack. It's a serigraph by you. It looks like it was copied from Thomas Mails artwork. Can we talk to you about that please?"

Churchill came out of his office several minutes later and agreed to talk, acknowledging his artwork is based on the Mails piece.

He insisted, however, he disclosed that during its initial release.

"It is an original art work by me, after Thomas Mails," Churchill said. "The fact that the purchaser was ignorant of the reality of what was perfectly publicly stated at the time the edition was printed is not my responsibility."

However, no credit was given to Mails on the artwork, and Churchill refused to provide documentation to back his claims.

Intellectual property attorney Jim Hubbell told the Denver station such documentation, if it exists, still would not protect Churchill from copyright infringement unless he had consent from Mails.

The son of the late Thomas Mails told KCNC the family retains the copyright.

"My father invested a great deal of himself in his work, and from that he developed a great fierceness in defending his work," Ryan Mails said. "I cannot imagine he would ever grant permission to anyone to copy one of his pieces."
 
78Boldwin
      ID: 1411237
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 06:01
No, Ward, you didn't reverse the picture for artistic reasons.
 
79Texas Flood
      ID: 326462912
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 10:49
I saw the tape on O'Riely last night. Some pretty funny stuff. It appeared that Churchill swatted at the reporter but it was hardly assult.

Obviously the art work is as phoney as Churchill!
 
80Perm Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 11:04
Let the copyright guy insert something here: A single copy (or a couple) wouldn't be a copyright infringment, but 150 copies, for sale, puts him right in the crosshairs.

Also, Churchill, whose integrity has been challenged since news broke earlier last month.... This is absolutely false. As I've noted before, his integrity has been challenged for your if anyone was interested in AI affairs.

pd
 
81soxzeitgeist
      ID: 2421159
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 10:33
Churchill did little to dispel my ideas of his scumbaggery last night on Real Time. And his appearance on Mahers show brought my opinion of that comic/pundit way down. I generally have liked Bill, but giving Ward the airtime (and throwing Guckert-esque questions at him to boot) was a total waste and a damn shame.

On a lighter note, we can all take this quiz to help us understand each other better - even if we can't actually hear each other.
 
82Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 12:58
29% Yankee
 
83Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 13:07
81% (Dixie). Did you have any Confederate ancestors?

uh..yeah.
 
84Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 13:13
The Churchill affair is an expression of the degenerate state of American social science and humanities faculties. It illuminates the political subversion of the academic enterprise by tenured radicals who have made universities like Boulder political institutions of the left, and in the process so diminished the presence of conservative, libertarian and even centrist thought from university faculties that hate-America radicals like Churchill are now pillars of the profession.

The remedy for this situation is not to purge the Ward Churchills from academic faculties. Their ideas are by now entrenched in the university curriculum and cannot be stamped out by firing an individual even if that were advisable (which it is not). They need to be confronted intellectually. Their scholarly incompetence needs to be exposed, and students need to be presented with an alternative view of history that is closer to reality.

The remedy for the Churchill problem is first of all to embrace the idea of intellectual diversity as a primary university value. This will insulate the university from attempts by legislators to remedy the situation themselves. The American public will accept the presence of an extremist like Churchill on a university faculty if they are convinced that the university is a true marketplace of ideas and that Churchill's perverse views will be answered by his peers.

The real problem is that there is no such diversity at the University of Colorado at Boulder today. In the present academic system, conservatives are as rare as unicorns, and have an almost impossible barrier to overcome in order to get hired. That is because search and hiring committees are composed of professors like Ward Churchill. That is the problem that the regents of the University of Colorado (and similar institutions) need to begin to address, now. - David Horowitz
Fire the hiring committees and tell the protesters who are sure to appear to go fly a kite.

 
85soxzeitgeist
      ID: 6225115
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 13:43
13% (Yankee). Wow. Your Yankee score is in the top 20 percentile! Even tho' I'm a Sox fan.
 
86sarge33rd
      ID: 32239314
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 14:03
39% (Yankee). You are definitely a Yankee.
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 18:44
That score certainly doesn't mean east coast yankee. Virtually ever answer specified great lakes accent as you would expect coming from Chi-town.
 
88katietx
      ID: 3522518
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 23:47
48% (Yankee). Barely into the Yankee category.
 
89TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Mar 06, 2005, 00:08
55% (Dixie). Just above the Mason-Dixon Line
 
90Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 09, 2005, 04:23
What do you know, the University of Colorado isn't adverse to firing professors after all...
Professor Phil Mitchell, who has a doctorate in American social history from the university, says he recently was informed his contract would not be renewed after this year because "his teaching was not up to the department standards," according to Denver Post columnist David Harsanyi.


Mitchell, winner in 1998 of the prestigious SOAR Award for teacher of the year, told the columnist he has wondered how long he would last.

"I've had enough. I am clearly being closed out for political or religious reasons," Mitchell says. "I am one of the top-rated professors in the history of the department."

A colleague, William Wei, described by Harsanyi as "hardly a conservative," said, "Phil is a great person, a good teacher and highly regarded by his students."

Harsanyi said Mitchell, who has taught at the Hallett Diversity Program for 24 straight semesters, upset the head of the department by presenting a diverse opinion.

After quoting respected black intellectual Thomas Sowell in a discussion about affirmative action, Mitchell was berated as a racist.

"That would have come as a surprise to my black children," said Mitchell, who has nine children, two of them adopted African-Americans.

Then, says Harsanyi, the professor used a book on liberal Protestantism in the late 19th century.

Harsanyi writes: "So repulsed by the word 'god' was one student, she complained, and the department chair fired him without a meeting."

The columnist points out that unlike Churchill's case, there was no protest by faculty and students.

Mitchell later was reinstated, Harsanyi said, but never was able to teach in the history department again.

"People say liberals run the university. I wish they did," Mitchell told the Denver columnist. "Most liberals understand the need for intellectual diversity. It's the radical left that kills you."
A bit too generous in that last paragraph I am afraid.

 
92 Paul York
      ID: 41502516
      Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 18:20
Few who written on this subject have addressed Hannah Arrendt's thesis on evil, from which Churchill derived the infamous comment.

In _Eichmann: The Banality of Evil_ Arrendt argues that thoughtless beurocracy and abdication of moral responsibility to authority figures by careerists allowed someone like as ordinary as Eichmann (really a bureaucrat) to schedule the death trains.

The case can easily be made that everyone who participates in modern industrial economies commits evil in the same way, although not on the scale of genocide necessarily - though indeed a few are directly implicated in mass-murder.

Whatever the case, 9/11 was a great tragedy and this violence cannot be excused under any circumstances. But we ought to consider the way in which we - all of us - are complicit in crimes against humanity and the Earth.

The negative social and environmental effects associated with capitalism: industrialization, globalization, child labour, trade inequity, the negatie effects of climate change (namely drought and disease and flooding), natural resource extraction, and war are but a few of the ways in which the murder and impovrishment of innocent human beings occurs.

Churchill and other native scholars write and speak regarding the colonization of North America, which resulted in the extermination of some fifty million people over the last five hundred years and which is still ongoing through natural resource extraction (mining in principal, which creates toxic tailings).

Churchill views himself in a state of war with the United States and his firing as a political act of oppression. By firing him, the University of Colorado has simply reinforced the polarization between people who feel excluded, marginalized and exploited by an unsustainable system of mass consumption and insanity - the same system that invade Iraq or supports the destruction of the Earth.

I am not supporting Churchill's overall philosophy -- I personally believe in non-violence, which he is steadfastly against -- but it is important to understand the initial statment that cause that furor, and to put it in context.

There is a degree to which you, me and everyone who does not live a pure and ethical life (growing our own food, making our own clothes, not exploiting animals, not driving or flying or buying things make by slave labour in China) is a "little Eichmann" - which is to say, a thoughtless person whose existence in North America is expoitative and contributes in a small indirect way (or sometimes direct way) to someone else's misery and death.

The structures of our society, built on violence and exploitation -- and management by the type of people who work in office towers -- ensure that we are all in small ways (or large) complicit with this banal type of evil.

We do this either those whom we displaced, or those whom our system improvishes in the developing nations, or future generations who will suffer from drought and climate change and lack of resources because of the insatiable greed of this generation.

Scientists are now talking about the possible collapse of civilization as a result of climate change. The evidence for great tragedy is clear and obvious. We in this society are complicit and do bear responsibility. I think that if you put Churchill's remarks in that context, they make some sort of sense.

The solution, however, is not violence, but the cessation of all forms of violence everywhere - industrial, environmental, social, global, governmental, terrorist and militant.
 
93Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 19:07
There is a degree to which you, me and everyone who does not live a pure and ethical life (growing our own food, making our own clothes, not exploiting animals, not driving or flying or buying things make by slave labour in China)

The solution, however, is not violence, but the cessation of all forms of violence everywhere - industrial, environmental, social, global, governmental, terrorist and militant.


Sounds like the solution - the cessation of all forms of violence - would require to "start over", for all industrialized methods of production today are guilty of violence, right. And starting over would be a huge disruption, so we would all have to at least start with growing our own food and making our own clothes.

This sounds a lot like Pol Pot's plan and his plan sucked.

Could we at least keep the horses and water buffalo to pull the plows? I know you aren't keen on exploiting animals, but as strong as I am, I would be miserable pulling a plow. Horses really do the job a lot better.
 
94C1-NRB
      ID: 5932328
      Tue, Feb 26, 2008, 12:17
Re: 81- 89% Dixie. Do you still use Confederate money?
Ya'll got a problem with that?
 
95holt
      ID: 341542412
      Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 05:41
LOL

65% Dixie.
Well under the Mason-Dixon Line

why would anyone say "you all" when "y'all" gets the job done?

I'll never forget the time that I told a grocery clerk in Minnesota that I was "fixin" to do something. I may as well have been speaking Arabic. I guess I understood that northerners didn't say fixin, but it kind of blew me away that she didn't even know what it meant. I mean she even got to hear me use the word in a sentence and she couldn't deduce what I meant.
 
96Tree
      ID: 39233124
      Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 06:42
when i first moved to Texas as a kid, i remember a teacher telling me to to put something "up"...

so, i held it above my head. how did i know that meant "put it away"...
 
97holt
      ID: 341542412
      Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 08:31
When I was in the 5th grade the police chief came to our classroom and told us about some local vandalism. I guess most of us were pretty intimidated. At some point he asked us if he could see our souls. So the room was quiet for a few seconds. I remember being confused as to how a person could show their soul to someone. Then finally one of the kids (who likely wasn't very familiar with the word soul) lifted his foot up in the air to show the cop the sole of his shoe. Then it all sunk in and the rest of us showed off our soles.
 
98sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 14, 2008, 12:13
I rather enjoyed this guy:

One man speaks his mind...

In all honesty, I really dont disagree with much anything he has to say. (Does that mean I might lose my "self-loathing Liberal" membership card?????
 
99nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, Mar 14, 2008, 13:08


I'll never forget the time that I told a grocery clerk in Minnesota that I was "fixin" to do something. I may as well have been speaking Arabic. I guess I understood that northerners didn't say fixin, but it kind of blew me away that she didn't even know what it meant.

Maybe the guy thought he walked into an episode of the Beverly Hillbillies... 8-}