Forum: pol
Page 2272
Subject: The Rise of Euthanasia Part II


  Posted by: Baldwin - [241292815] Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 18:08

"Because of these difficulties, the American Academy of Neurology has made it clear that it can take months for a physician to establish with confidence the diagnosis of PVS. A 1996 British Medical Journal study, conducted at England’s Royal Hospital for Neurodisability, concluded that there was a 43-percent error rate in the diagnosis of PVS. Inadequate time spent by specialists evaluating patients was listed as a contributing factor for the high incidence of errors." - source
Thank you for your 45 minute diagnosis/death sentence Dr Cranford.
 
1biliruben
ID: 500432513
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 18:34
Just to counter CCPs absurd logic:

That a half-hour longer than Bush pondered his death sentences.
 
2Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 18:51
A really good list of all the laws judge greer broke or ignored.

There is certainly no way this guy could ever get re-elected to the bench. He's a serious candidate for impeachment.
 
3Sore Thumb
ID: 252392215
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 18:56
just a hypothetical (excuse me if its already been discussed)

Suppose they keep her alive and in 2 years through Stem Cell research they discover they can rehabilitate her.

Will everyone calling to save her now deny her the benefits of the research?
 
4Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 18:59
Remember the USA Congress' action was only a delaying tactic, it was only for the purpose of allowing Jeb Bush to get his law enforcement house in order in time.
The Governor of Florida, Jeb Bush, just completed a press conference with Tampa Bay media. He says that the Department of Children and Families, through Adult Protective Services are conducting an investigation of abuse against Terri Schiavo. As part of that, a neurologist by the name of Dr. Cheshire, observed Terri, lengthy videos of her and her case record. He has concluded that she is not in a persistent vegetative state. Rather, he felt she was minimally conscious if not functioning higher.
I heard this press conference and the Fla DCFS was quite firm that they were going to proceed and had sufficient evidence of wrongdoing to act in Terri's interest. She said they had had many complaints over the years but now they had compelling evidence to act.
 
5Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:02
MSM has displayed a remarkable bias towards euthanasia. Even some Fox News reporters.
 
6Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:10
Stuff definately breaking in Florida...
Bay9 News is saying there's a meeting with Greer and DCF going on now, and he will come up with a decision by noon tomorrow. DCF says they may take custody of Terri before then.
 
7Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:11
Why was the title of this thread changed?
 
8culdeus
ID: 492152212
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:17
uhhh, because the other thread was huge?
 
9Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:18
No, culdeus, not "the other thread". This thread.
 
10Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:22
What was it?
 
11Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:24
Something like 'Save Theeri Thread Part 2'. I was wondering if a moderator changed it but I see now from the time that this one was created (the Save Terri one was created before I left work at 6pm) that Baldwin must have reposted the same thing with a different title. I wonder why.
 
12Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:25
Sorry, "Save Terri Thread Part 2" is what I meant to write.
 
13Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:38
Gov. Bush Seeks to Take Custody of Schiavo

oh, good God. the circus continues. more proof the Bush's believe they are above the law. judge after judge has come out in favor of the husband, yet, the radical christian terrorists who seek to destroy what this nation is based on keep trying.
 
14Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:47
Nothing sinister...this thread is bigger than just Terri, as it goes to the heart of the recrudescent nazi doctrine of euthanasia and these threads will remain important long after Terri is saved or dead.
 
15Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:48
As will the misconceptions and slander.
 
16Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:55
By the way, six years ago, as Gov of Texas, Bush signed a landmark Right to Die law which allows, among other things, that an ethics panel can allow patients to die (by discontinuing support) that it deems to be beyond care.

While I think Baldwin's points are often overstated, I think that we also need to be careful in this issue that a "right to die" doesn't become a "duty to die."
 
17Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 19:59
PD - i posted that earlier, so pthhhhhhhhhh...

btw, for anyone who cares, i'm on Girl Scout Cookie #52 in my Gorge for Terri...
 
18Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 20:10
must have been in the other thread--sorry tree. I actually looked for it here!
 
19Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 20:15
Lanny Davis siding with Terri and her parents! On Fox right now.

Just to prove this need not and should not become a partisan issue. I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy towards Lanny Davis...omg!
 
20soxzeitgeist
ID: 28272319
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 20:20
And an infant child just died in Houston as a result of that law, which Bush signed as Govenor.

A similar case involving a 68 year old man in PVS is before a court now - that's the other case you hear baldwin et al. screaming about, right?

My favorite part of the Texas law is that the hospitals can use financial concerns as one of their parameters when making the decision to end care.

While it's not a straight line of "patient x can't pay", (and therefore will be denied care) it's still disturbing that it would even be considered, right?

Or am I missing something obvious?
 
21Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 20:38
cookie #54. and they ain't waafer thin...

in the meanwhile, i chuckle...



...and chortle...



for more giggly goodness,


Get Your War On here...
 
22Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 20:38
I still need to see more details about what that baby would have gone thru had he continued ventilation for a long period. I'd like to hear any doctors opinions that were contrary to that decision as the Schindlers have in bushel baskets.

Ventilation is heading up the scale of heroic measures from simple food and water but not by much.

I certainly could be persuaded that that was an injustice depending on what I learned.

I would also point out that there is no wife abuser still abusing/controlling his victim angle that so outrages.

In more general terms I'd like to point out that I don't trust the Bush brothers further than I can spit. They may or may not be evil to the core but plenty of their close friends and advisors and sponsors in the power elite are blackest black to the core. I firmly believe their buddies if not they themselves are all for eugenics and I always look at their support for evidence of aligator arms and left handed false support that will just give false hope and sabotage of that which they say they support.

You could well have caught an example of their true agenda and their support of Terri could just be their cynical attempt to make sure Jeb is president #3 in the dynasty. For all I know.
 
23Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 20:40
But as I said this isn't partisan for me. Eugenics would be/[is already?] a tragedy for all. Terri's fight is about Terri and fighting eugenics.
 
24Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 21:15
One argument I keep hearing is that this has been legislated to death. How many times does this have to be retried? The truth is it's never been retried or even been given a complete hearing once...
how is it that Judge Greer’s ruling has been sustained? The answer is that in our legal system, once a judge has ruled on a matter of fact, it is very difficult to revisit such a ruling. The lawyers’ rule of thumb is that trial courts hear and rule on questions of fact, and appellate courts rule on questions of law; it’s unusual for an appellate court to overturn a lower court’s ruling because of an issue of fact.

That’s why, at every turn in this case, the Schindlers have had to try to undo the faulty rulings of fact previously issued by Judge Greer. They’ve had to go back before Judge Greer himself and try to convince him that he was wrong, and should undo his own rulings. Judge Greer has proven unwilling to do so. The higher courts, unwilling to overturn a trial judge’s rulings of fact, have no interest in granting new hearings. Michael Schiavo and George Felos have no interest in revisiting Terri’s diagnosis, as that ruling provides the whole legal basis of their ability to end her life. Dr. Cranford has no interest in seeing his own diagnosis called into question. Dr. Bell lamented that at this point, "medical realities are no longer governing this case." He added that it seemed to him that medical issues concerning the care of the patient had been subsumed by legal issues. In our courts, he added, "once a decision is made they don't want additional information."

The whole history of Terri’s case over the past few years can be summed up as the efforts of the Schindlers, and those who value Terri’s life, to try to introduce additional information before the courts and other authorities. Some of this information consists of facts and arguments that were ignored or dismissed without adequate consideration; some has been the result of advances in the diagnosis and treatment of brain injuries over the last five years. On the side of Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer, their efforts have consisted almost entirely in trying to prevent any new information from being presented or considered.

The legal system’s willful blindness to facts cannot succeed forever. The truth has a way of coming out. But will it do so in time to save Terri Schiavo? Dr. Morin said to me, towards the end of our conversation, that “the law can find a way to do the right thing if it wants to.” The problem so far is that those who have the power to do the right thing seem to have no desire or inclination to do so. - NR

 
25Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 21:20
The truth is it's never been retried or even been given a complete hearing once...

numerous judges at several levels have made decisions against the parents of Terri Schiavo. i realize you twist things for your own perverse needs, and you've done no different here. facts are facts baldwin, no matter how much you choose to not believe in them.
 
26Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 21:36
Schiavo Videotape Misleading, Experts Say

i realize that the experts are wrong, but whatcha gonna do...
 
27Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 21:53
Florida DCFS prepares to take Terri into protective custody...I think.

The DCFS petition...
Our investigation into this defense revealed: Credible evidence through the analysis of our board certified Neurologist on our APT [adult protection team - DH] that seriously challenges the diagnosis that Ms Schiavo is in a PVS. These findings are detailed in the doctor’s affidavit…
 
28Texas Flood
ID: 172321910
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 21:55
Tree and Baldwin...The original odd couple;).

Have a nice week everyone. I'm off to Florida tomorrow for some golf, sailing and lagre buckets of rum runners.

I'm guessing by the time I get back this just may be the longest thread in the history of rotoguru.com.
 
29Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 21:56
i love how science, fact, and well, anything from the last 400 years or so it seems, gets tossed out the window in the name of these loons...
 
30Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 21:59
Dr Cheshire is from the Mayo Clinic, but then perhaps you are 400 years advanced in your scientific knowledge as compared with the Mayo Clinic.
 
31Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 22:05
Baldwin - this is one doctor. making a judgement based on reading a case history and watching a video tape that most other experts have said is midleading.

how many other doctors have said the opposite of Cheshire? countless others. countless others with no agenda.

as it suits you, you take the word of one doctor over countless others.
 
32Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 22:13
From the petition
DCF, in it's unique and legislative role as a detector of abuse, neglect and/or exploitation (Section 415.101(2),FS), has a heretofore unrepresented interest in whther Theresa Marie Schiavo, the subject of a substantial number of allegations of abuse, neglect, and exploitation, remains a viable living adult during the pendency of DCF's investigation. Plainly stated, due to the investigation and the potential need for examination of the alleged victim, surroundings and circumstances as required by law, DCF is interested, directly and immediately, in that part of the guardianship proceeding which calls for the removal of life support, because such action would deny DCF's ability to meet it's statutory duty. See Morgareidge v Howey
Ok this does not threaten to take her into protective custody but it demands for a second time that all medical records and video be released to the DCF and that the tubes be put back in.
 
33Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 22:14
48 hours
 
34Tree
ID: 212401018
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 22:21
59 Girl Scout Cookies...
 
35Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 23:01
As soon as you manage to kill Terri, head on out to Michael's house. I am sure there will be quite a wingding.

 
36katietx
ID: 30222322
Wed, Mar 23, 2005, 23:02
Tree - you have yet to say what kind of GS cookies. I need to live vicariously after all - my current diet doesn't allow me GS cookies! :-|
 
37Tree
ID: 212401018
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 06:54
As soon as you manage to kill Terri, head on out to Michael's house. I am sure there will be quite a wingding.

a couple more inches, crossing onto his property, and depending on what state it is, it's open season on idiots. i will say, however, that i haven't seen 8 women on their knees like that since college...but that's another story.

---------------------------------------

as for cookies, so far i've had:

one box of caramel delites (formerly known as Samoas (15 cookies))

one box of peanut butter patties (formerly known as tag alongs (15 cookies))

12 peanut butter sandwiches.

9 thin mints.

7 double chocolate chips.

3 Shortbreads.

no vomitting yet, but i am experiencing some mild headaches. also, a bit of hyperactivity.



 
38Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 07:04
At that rate, Terri may live longer than you tree.
 
39sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 07:55
100 boxes of GS cookies, 100 boxes of cookies,

you take one down and pass it to Tree,

99 boxes of GS cookies, 99 boxes of cookies....
 
40soxzeitgeist
ID: 36254246
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 07:59
You'd better start doubling up on those thin mints, they're the closest thing to leafy greens in your diet right now.
 
41Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 09:58
i didn't say i was ONLY eatting cookies. jeez...lol...

i had some tasty Wild Boar sausage last night for dinner...
 
42Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:01
Republican Leader Invokes God in Schiavo Battle

(House of Representatives Majority Leader Tom) DeLay told a conservative Christian group that the Schiavo case was a gift from God for their cause, drawing fresh complaints from Democrats that he was trying to score political points.

hey, Toral - any question now that there is political motivation behind the actions of DeLay and the rest of the Radical Christian Constitutional Terrorists?
 
43sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:28
Baldwin, given that no criminal charges have been brought against Michael Schiavvo, given that no conviction on any charges has been attained, given that no investigation over the past 15 years has rsulted in either of those two events, we arrive at a premise. That being, your continued allegations of spousal abuse are unfounded and cannot be legitimately used as reference to terminate his rights as gaurdian.

Now, given that status, and given that nobody can concretely contest M Schiavvo's claim that he and his wife had talked about this type situation and neither wanted to live under these circumstances, we arrive at the root question;

By what "right" do you contest his decision to follow through on his wifes stated preference? (Any reference on your part to alledged spousal abuse, will immediately render your response as non-applicable, given that no conviction or charges are pending.)
 
44Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:32
sarge, when in doubt, the Right character assasinates. On this particular issue they seemingly aren't able to directly attack the wishes of Terri, so they are playing games like saying that we can't make a diagnosis of PVS, or that Michael's just in it for the money, or that there's abuse (I tell you!) if only they had the chance to find the evidence.

Did Terri want to live this way? That's the real question, and the one (unfortunately) that only her husband can answer.
 
45Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:34
Schiavo parents appeal to U.S. Supreme Court

Nineteen court rulings have sided with Michael Schiavo, who as husband is also guardian. The courts have ruled that evidence shows Terri Schiavo expressed her wishes, although she did not have a written living will.

It was the fourth time the case has been presented to the Supreme Court, which has consistently refused to hear it. Most recently, on Friday, lawyers for the House of Representatives filed an appeal asking the justices to intervene in the case. The appeal was denied without comment.
 
46Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:36
It's really very sad. I don't care what side you are on this issue, you really have to feel for Terri's parents.
 
47Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:40
If this is really about Terri's wishes can anyone imagine she wants her parents to be going thru what they are? Give her up you freaking wife abuser.
 
48Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:43
If this is really about Terri's wishes can anyone imagine she wants her parents to be going thru what they are?

what about her husband? what about what he is going through?

he's had to make an agonizing personal decision based on his wife's wishes expressed to him, and he's had it politicized by the RCCT.

he's had to see his wife suffer over and over becaues of the removal and reinsertion of her feeding tube, despite an incredible amount of judgements in favor of those choosing to end Terri's misery.
 
49Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:43
What a strange response. I don't know if she thought about her suffering parents, but if so it's probably one of the reasons she wanted to die if she ever got to this state, so her parents would not have suffered so much.
 
50Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:43
According to legalese, Michael and Terri are still married. Actually, when Michael took up with another woman and they started a family, he ceased to be married to Terri and became married to his current squeeze, whether there was a legal divorce or not.
That's really all the evidence I need to know that Michael's position in this should be irrelevant. He hasn't been her husband for over a decade, but her parents will always be her parents.


 
51Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:44
It's goig to be interesting to see who gets the movie rights and the biggest book deal.

Pop goes the weasal!
 
52sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:44
If this is really about Terri's wishes can anyone imagine she wants her parents to be going thru what they are? Give her up you freaking wife abuser.

and thats really it isnt it Baldwin? Your "right to life" has little to do with Terri, but everything to do with preserving the body of the parents child for their comfort. To hell with what the person wanted for themselves. Like I said before, this has all the validity of a funeral march. The purpose of your fight, is not T Schiavvos wishes, but her parents wishes. Keep the body alive, because it gives Mom and Dad a "warm fuzzy" feeling. Nevermind what Terri would have wanted for herself.
 
53Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:52
Baldwin, given that no criminal charges have been brought against Michael Schiavvo...

By what "right" do you contest his decision to follow through on his wifes stated preference?
- Sarge

Fair questions. Michael's parents after seeing the bonescans screaming wife abuse, did bring formal criminal charges against Michael of attempted murder. Diabolicly Michael had done everything he could to refuse access to the medical records to her parents. They did not get these records until it was too late to get it in under Florida's statute of limitations of attempted murder prosecution.

By what right do I ask? All I ask is that Florida investigate those charges for the purpose of protecting Terri even if Michael is off the legal hook.

Sweet justice would be that Michael get prosecuted for murder for which there is no statute of limitations [I believe] having moved the situtation beyond simply attempted status. No sweet justice would be that DCF actually do their job, albeit nineteen years too late.
 
54Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:54
is not T Schiavvos wishes

Don't you think her wish would have been to get a divorce when he moved in and started having children with another woman?
I don't have any negativity about him because of that, but it's ridiculous that he could remain legally married to Terri on paper when it obviously was a sham.
 
55Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 10:54
Sarge

I fully believe Terri's wishes haven't changed since she exploded in outrage when it was suggested Ann Quinlin should have had her plug pulled, saying,
"where there's life there's hope" - Terri Schiavo
 
56sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:00
I'm going to irritate a few no doubt with this comparison, but I think it somewhat valid;

When my maternal grandmother passed away, following many years of physical/mental decline; I felt it to be a blessing for her. This way, during her lucid moments (which had become very few and VERY far between), she no longer had to feel the guilt associated with requiring 24/7 care. No longer would she lie there in bed and believe herself to be a burden upon us all. No more would she suffer through the humiliation of being unable to control her physical actions.

I would venture the guess, that any of us would in Terri's position, assuming ANY moments of lucidity, would prefer to pass vs contending with those internal issues. I know for an absolute fact that I would NOT want to exist like that. Not for a month, not for a week. Certainly not for 15+ years.

Ever tried to genuinely describe "hell on earth"? Here's my best definition;

A lucid mind, trapped in an utterly nonfunctional body. Able perhaps to form cognitive thought, but unable to communicate that fact in any fashion or form. Unable to act on any voluntary physical basis. Unable to voice thought, or to signal via eye movememnt, hand gesture, something to say, "Hey, I'm here."

In that scenario...kill me please. Take away the part of the lucid mind, and there exists no rationale what-so-ever, for preserving the body. Destroy it. The person who used to be there, is long gone.
 
57Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:02
This will be a huge victory for the Looney Left Nazi Death Squad. They've been trying to get one up on the God Fearing Christain Radical Constitutional Terrorist Bush Lovers since Kerry got his ass handed to him last November.

Kill the Beotch and let em have thier day in the Sun.
 
58Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:09
PV - why does starting a family disqualify Michael Schiavo from making decisions about his wife, based on requests from her? it doesn't.

Baldwin - let's not forget that he did everything he could in the early years of her condition.

when doctors first determined she was in a perm. veg. state, he flew her to california for experimental treatments. he slept in a cot in her hospital room.

when that didn't work, he hired an aide to take her to museums and parks in hopes it stimulate her.

nothing worked. nothing changed. this is not a man who threw in the towel when tragedy first struck. this is a man who tried his damnedest, and finally, gave into medical advice, and decided that he should now do what Terri would have wanted.

 
59Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:11
Michael acted the husband until the minute the court accepted his act that he needed money to treat Terri. As soon as Terri had money he did every last thing he could think of to kill her.
 
60Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:14
Sarge #56

My arguement is not whether it is right or wrong for her to die. There could be tons of evidence that she told her ex-husband that she would prefer death over sustained life from artificial means. I find that to be irrelevant.

How is it possible to remain married to one person when you live and have children with another? Who is really Mrs. Schiavo, Terri or the woman he currently lives with and raises his children? There's a glitch in the law that allows for this farce to still be called a marriage. His guardianship should have been surrendered when he married the current Mrs. Schiavo. Pieces of paper don't acknowledge marriage, reality does.
 
61Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:16
PV

He can't marry the current common law wife until he collects. The money's all gone? I wouldn't take Michael's word on that.
 
62Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:26
This will be a huge victory for the Looney Left Nazi Death Squad. They've been trying to get one up on the God Fearing Christain Radical Constitutional Terrorist Bush Lovers since Kerry got his ass handed to him last November.

TF - you're a bonafide idiot if you honestly believe this is about one-upmanship on the part of the left. not once has anyone on the left spoken of any sort of political victory in this issue, unlike the leadership of the right.

Baldwin - Michael acted the husband until the minute the court accepted his act that he needed money to treat Terri. As soon as Terri had money he did every last thing he could think of to kill her.

it's already been established this is not a money issue. he's turned down millions of dollars already.

perhaps his first thoughts, instead of money, was trying to improve her health. later, he became concerned about how to pay for it, and sued a doctor for malpractice. i think this is very important to note. he took care of Terri first, then worried about paying for it later.

PV - How is it possible to remain married to one person when you live and have children with another?

simply put, he didn't marry the other woman.
 
63Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:30
PV - why does starting a family disqualify Michael Schiavo from making decisions about his wife, based on requests from her? it doesn't.

It should. Terri hasn't been his wife for over a decade. Only a piece of paper that should be null and void states that they are married. It has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, which is that he moved on, began a relationship with another woman that included having children and living under the same roof. That is marriage in my opinion. I don't begrudge him doing that, everyone on this board would probably do that(maybe not Baldwin) but that should void his previous marriage.
Are you really going to try and defend that there remains a marriage between Michael and Terri? It makes Michael's motives look deeply suspicious and should disqualify him from making any decisions on her regard.
 
64Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:34
Only a piece of paper that should be null and void states that they are married.

only a piece of paper? is this the same piece of paper that many on the Radical Right say shouldn't be allowed for homosexual marriages.

if it were just a piece of paper, then homosexual marriages wouldn't be such a big deal, right?

just checking...
 
65Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:36
Tree why do you keep injecting political comments into the conversation if it's not political? You have made it more political than anyone on the boards.

I made the statement to show you how stuid you sound by injecting politics into the conversation.

As expected you countered by calling names, Typical of the small minded hater your are.
 
66Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:38
Tree why do you keep injecting political comments into the conversation if it's not political? You have made it more political than anyone on the boards.

read the title of this forum. slowly, please, so you grasp it.

i choose (personal choice, a hard thing for conservatives to grapple with) to dispute what i think is wrong.
 
67Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:40
Supreme Court Rejects Terri Schiavo Case

...again.

-------------------------------

most interesting, however, in discussing the politics of the issue, is this:

Poll: Evangelicals Oppose Gov't on Schiavo
 
68Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:49
Tree,
I know that you live with your girlfriend and I assume your relationship is monogamous. For whatever reason, you have decided not to be legally married.
However, if she were to be come comatose like Terri, and you eventually moved on, moved in with another woman and had children but never married, would you still consider your present girlfriend your girlfriend, or the one with whom you live and raise children?

Now change the word girlfriend to wife.

Is it just semantics, or is there a major flaw in the legal system that allows for Terri and Michael to remain married?
If Terri were able, do you doubt for a second that she would have divorced Michael when he moved on, moved in and had children with another woman? Honestly?
 
69Sludge
ID: 54692111
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:49
Tree: he's had to see his wife suffer over and over becaues of the removal and reinsertion of her feeding tube, despite an incredible amount of judgements in favor of those choosing to end Terri's misery.

Tree, one of the main points of discussion, and one of the ones that Michael's side keeps hammering, is that Terri isn't suffering because she is unable to suffer. If she could feel pain, suffer, and experience misery, this case would be completely different.
 
70sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:51
and PV, do you think that if Terri were still "able", Michael would still have "moved on"?

Your POV, is a strictly religious one. Legally, until a dissolution of marriage takes place, they are legally husband and wife. Period. Whether you personally think this is right or wrong, is irrelevant to the case law.
 
71Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:54
Sludge, I hadn't heard that argument. I know that they say she is "not there" in any intelligence sense, but as for physical pain I had not heard that argument.

But one of the other main points of discussion is that Michael is actually following Terri's wishes--that she did not want to "live" under these circumstances, regardless of pain threshholds.
 
72Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 11:55
girlfriend and wife. two very different things. i've had numerous girlfriends. i've had zero wives.
 
73Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:06
Your POV, is a strictly religious one

Well, that's something I've never been accused of before. I understand my opinions have no legal basis. In my opinion, that law is flawed. A court should be able to terminate a marriage when it's obvious that one does not exist, which it doesn't in this case. My point is not religious, it's just common sense. If you you live with a woman and raise children together, she is your wife, not the one you used to live with and have a piece of paper saying you're married. It's a farce.

Tree, you avoided my question. There are people who get married all the time that don't have the type of relationship I'll assume you have with your current squeeze. Just because you're more responsible about making major decisions like marriage doesn't change the basis of the question, which is,
"When you move on from a relationship with a woman to a relationship with another woman, do you still consider the former your wife/girlfriend or ex-wife/ex-girlfriend?"
 
74Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:07
Legally, until a dissolution of marriage takes place, they are legally husband and wife. Period.

Well, duh. But I think you're missing PV's point. If Michael has "moved on" and is no longe acting as Terri's husband, why should the Court prefer him to her parents in deciding who Terri's guardian is. Husband's have no legal right to be their spouse's guardians.
 
75Sludge
ID: 54692111
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:11
I know that they say she is "not there" in any intelligence sense, but as for physical pain I had not heard that argument.

Q: If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make any noise?

A: It doesn't matter, because there is nobody there to care.

Terri's body may feel pain, but Terri doesn't. This is really the crux of the matter, as far as I'm concerned. If it was demonstrable that there was anyone home to experience these things (of course Baldwin would say, and has said, that it's not only demonstrable, but that it's been demonstrated), then the case would be completely different. I don't know what you've been reading or listening to regarding this case, but I keep hearing it over and over again that she feels no pain, and will (doesn't) feel no (any) pain without the feeding tube.

Schiavo unlikely to experience pain, neurologists say


Florida courts have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, a condition caused by extensive damage to the cortex and other parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, higher thinking, memory or even sensations such as pain, hunger and thirst.

"She's not experiencing hunger — she's not experiencing anything," Albin [a neurologist at the University of Michigan] says.

 
76Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:14
So I'm not sure I understand your point, Sludge. Are you saying that because she can't feel pain her wishes should be overuled?
 
77sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:16
re 74; I understand PV's point MBJ. And without regard to whether or not a spouse has the automotic right of gaurdianship, the courts have granted that right to Michael Schiavvo. With that granting, we the general public, have no right to argue it. Its been argued, its been decided, its a "done deal". Its been appealed, and appealed, and appealed to my understanding. Its over.
 
78Sludge
ID: 54692111
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:19
So I'm not sure I understand your point, Sludge. Are you saying that because she can't feel pain her wishes should be overuled?

Huh? The only point I'm trying to make is that Tree should get his ducks in a row before trying to make a coherent argument.
 
79Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:21
Fair enough. Since you'd quoted me rather than Tree I had thought you were actually responding to me.

How about quoting Tree when you want to respond to him?

:/
 
80Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:23
Is it just semantics, or is there a major flaw in the legal system that allows for Terri and Michael to remain married?

good question. i don't think it's a flaw in the legal system. they were legally married. period.

If Terri were able, do you doubt for a second that she would have divorced Michael when he moved on, moved in and had children with another woman? Honestly?

if Terri were able, Michael wouldn't have moved on.
 
81Sludge
ID: 54692111
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:26
How about quoting Tree when you want to respond to him?

If you read my initial post (#69 - dude!), I quote Tree's post in #48. You reply to that post (in #71), and being the nice guy I am, I start having a conversation with you; not by quoting Tree, but by quoting your response to me. (Doing otherwise would be like talking to you while looking somewhere else.)
 
82Sludge
ID: 54692111
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:26
if Terri were able, Michael wouldn't have moved on.

And you know this how? Furthermore, it's irrelevant and moot.
 
83Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:28
With that granting, we the general public, have no right to argue it.


uh. Yeah we do. That's one of the nice things about living in a free society. We can express disagreement. We can vote on things. We can change laws when we find them ill-fitting to society's needs. Feel free to never disagree witha Court's decision, sarge. I'll be doing otherwise as situations dictate.

The only point I'm trying to make is that Tree should get his ducks in a row before trying to make a coherent argument.

That's an nureasonable burden for posting on these boards, sludge. you should know that by now.
 
84sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:35
OK MBJ, different scenario..

Deathrow inmate files an appeal. He loses. He appeals again, and again and again until ultimately he appeals to SCOTUS. They decline to hear the case. At what point do you as a Prosecutor argue...its game over pal. You've gone through your appelate process. Arguments have been tendered and the decisions have been made.

Its the legal process the "left" is arguing here. Not "lets kill someone". Rather, we are arguing that the system, flawed though it may be, has worked. We've followed it and it has done its job. To change it for this case, is to risk setting a precedent we really dont want to set.
 
85Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 12:52
Sarge

As you know one glaring hole in our 'justice system' is that some people are much better represented than others and this has a huge role in who gets justice.

In this case judge greer and his friends/maxed out campaign contributors on Michael's side of the courtroom conspired to keep Terri represented by euthanasia lobbyists, often without any ad litem at all, with a conflicted judge acting as ad litem illegally. With no one on her side she was lost from the beginning and no amount of appeals could ever save her unless one agreed to hear the facts which none have.

The judge withheld the evidence from Terri's family that they would have needed to prosecute Michael as a wife abuser.

God save us from such a legal system.
 
86Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 13:38
Tree should get his ducks in a row before trying to make a coherent argument.

i misspoke. i spoke from my heart, and not my head. that, however, doesn't change my argument...
 
87Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 13:54
Seems that those Schiavo Republican talking points so widely reported by the Fair and Balanced Liberal media are as bogus as the Rather the Rather Gate Memo.

No Politics on the part of Democrats, eh.

 
88sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 14:05
your source TF?

A google search revealed nothing new after Mar 23. None of cnn.com, msnbc.com, drudgereport, foxnews.com has anything new on the alledged memo as of today.
 
89sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 14:50
Baldwin, re #85; underrepresented?????? A State Governor, an Act of Congress, lost count of how many appeals....

So is this to be the new conservative battle cry? Fight the courts and when we lose, we'll claim inadequate representation?
 
90biliruben
ID: 500432513
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 14:51
Glenn Reynolds joins the reality based community be linking to and agreeing with an ACSH report.

While we at American Council on Science and Health have been determined to remain on the sidelines of the raging national debate about the fate of Terri Schiavo (this is largely a legal and ethical issue, not a scientific one), we cannot remain silent about the outrageous misrepresentation of scientific facts about this case that has been occurring in the past ten days.

The medical reality of Ms. Schiavo's case is this: She has been in what is medically referred to as a "permanent vegetative state" for the past 15 years, ever since her heart temporarily stopped (probably due to the severe effects of an eating disorder), depriving her brain of oxygen. Brain scans indicate that her cerebral cortex ceased functioning -- probably just after she experienced cardiac arrest in 1990. Ms. Schiavo's CAT scan shows massive shrinking of the brain, and her EEG is flat. Physicians confirm that there is no electrical activity coming from her brain. While the family video repeatedly shown on television suggests otherwise, her non-functioning cortex precludes cognition, including any ability to interact or communicate with people or show any signs of awareness. Dozens of experts over the years who have examined Ms. Schiavo agree that there is no hope of her recovering -- even though her body, face and eyes (if she is given food and hydration) might continue to move for decades to come.

Those are the harsh facts. . . .

Yesterday, there was another public challenge to Ms. Schiavo's well-established diagnosis: Florida governor Jeb Bush announced that a "very renowned neurologist," Dr. William Cheshire, had concluded that Terri had been misdiagnosed and that she was really only in a state of "minimal consciousness" rather than a persistent vegetative state. He used this "new diagnosis" to argue that "this new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action."

As it turns out, Dr. Cheshire is not "renowned" as a neurologist -- his limited publications focus on areas including headache pain and his opposition to stem cell research. Dr. Cheshire never conducted a physical examination of Ms. Schiavo, nor did he do neurological tests. . . . Let's call tripe when tripe is served. All of us are entitled to our own personal views on the Schiavo case, what her fate should be, and who should make decisions for her. But all of us should be united in rejecting politically-generated junk science.


 
91biliruben
ID: 500432513
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 14:54
Eat without guilt, Baldwin.
 
92Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:00
Baldwin, re #85; underrepresented?????? A State Governor, an Act of Congress, lost count of how many appeals....

She had no adequate ad litem. She had no one representing her. Michael had veto power over her representative. Greer was very negligent in this. He was himself illegally acting as her ad litem at times and at the same time he was the judge who would get to hear the complaint against him acting as ad litem.

It is no wonder she loses over and over. You have court experience. what are the prospects of a defendent in court without a lawyer? Up against the kind of lawyering Michael had?
 
93Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:20
Dr. William P. Cheshire, a Mayo Clinic neurologist and bioethicist, stepped into Terri Schiavo's hospice room three weeks ago and was overcome by "the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her."

That was not the reaction he expected before his 90-minute examination of a patient who has spent the last 15 years in a persistent vegetative state, Cheshire wrote in an affidavit filed Wednesday in Florida state court.

Schiavo, he wrote, may have been misdiagnosed. She may not be in a persistent vegetative state, but a recently recognized condition known as a "minimally conscious state," which encompasses intermittent signs of awareness.

Although the affidavit failed to persuade a state court to intervene in Schiavo's medical treatment, the seven-page document added fuel to the contentious debate over the 41-year-old woman's care by providing some scientific validation to those who seek to have her feeding tube reinstated.

"As I looked at Terri and she looked back at me, I asked myself whether I could in good conscience withdraw her feeding and hydration," Cheshire wrote. "No, I could not."

A minimally conscious state was defined by the American Academy of Neurology in 2002, a dozen years after Schiavo was first hospitalized.

Though patients in a persistent vegetative state are characterized by a complete absence of awareness, those in a minimally conscious state can respond to pain or the sight of visitors, among other signs of awareness.

Cheshire wrote that Schiavo has not had a complete neurological examination in the last three years and could fall into the minimally conscious category.

Cheshire is director of the Autonomic Reflex Laboratory at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Fla., which specializes in brain and nervous system disorders.

He is also listed as the director of biotech ethics at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity in Bannockburn, Ill., a nonprofit group that, according to its mission statement, addresses issues of managed care, end-of-life treatment, genetic intervention and euthanasia from a Christian perspective.
 
94Lady of the Lake
ID: 500432513
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:24
He sounds awefully like a shill of the "God Loves You even if you are dead" crowd.
 
95Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:25
He is also listed as the director of biotech ethics at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity in Bannockburn, Ill., a nonprofit group that, according to its mission statement, addresses issues of managed care, end-of-life treatment, genetic intervention and euthanasia from a Christian perspective.

yea. gotcha.
 
96biliruben
ID: 500432513
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:27
Wow, that Lady of the Lake chick sure has a remarkable breadth of knowledge.
 
97Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:34
And the power to execute doesn't spring from some watery tart, thank God.
 
98biliruben
ID: 500432513
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:35
If that watery tart is the One True God (OTG tm), you are so screwed, Baldwin.
 
99Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:40
Nah, yer a watery tart Bili, not God. 8]
 
100Tree
ID: 76471215
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:47
one of the blogs i enjoy reading most on the net is Miss Wanton Wonton...

an excerpt from her take on the whole Terri Schiavo debacle...

I actually give the husband props for being there for 15 years. Let’s do a little experiment shall we? I want you to take an eggplant out of your fridge and sit it on your couch. If you don’t have an eggplant, any vegetable will do. Set your kitchen timer for, let’s say 1 hour. Ok, now talk to your eggplant. Tell the eggplant about your day. Ask your roommate how the eggplant is doing today. Give your eggplant a massage so that it doesn’t atrophy. Ask the eggplant what they want to watch on TV. Forgo watching the basketball game because you remember that the eggplant likes to watch Entertainment Tonight. Sit next to your eggplant and stroke it lovingly. Now give your eggplant a sponge bath. Talk to your eggplant some more. Has it been 15 minutes yet? Keep it up, you have 45 minutes left to entertain and care for your unresponsive eggplant. Horny? Having sex with your eggplant would be wrong so just forget about that. You’re on 17 minutes now. Is time dragging on? Can you imagine doing that for 15 years? I give the man total props and I don’t blame him for having a girl on the side either. I can’t go without sex for 15 years, can you? Can you imagine seeing the person you love just lying there for 15 years, an empty shell of the person they once were? You have seen the before and current pictures of Schiavo. Tell me, does she look like the same person to you?
 
101Mark L
ID: 91572111
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 15:52
Dr. Cheshire's page at Mayo-Jax

You can plug "cheshire wp" into PubMed and get a list of his professional publications, back to about 1989. Mostly on a particularly nasty form of facial pain, some stuff on headaches generally, some on human cloning (he's against). In general his publication record does not look to me particularly significant to the Schiavo situation, which does not disqualify him but places his "eminence" as a neurologist with experience significant to this case into question.



PubMed search link
 
102Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 16:29
The monster Judge Greer

Think he values the will of the guardian, the closest family member? Nope, he is just pro-euthanasia pure and simple.
Judge George Greer, the Florida county jurist at the center of the Terri Schiavo case, ruled against a woman who was fighting to keep her husband alive in 2000.

While Greer has ruled consistently with husband Michael Schiavo, who seeks to terminate his wife's life by depriving of her of food and water, the parallel case suggests the judge may have a predisposition to removal of any life-support devices rather than an inclination toward the legal guardian.

The 2000 case heard by Greer involved the life of St. Petersburg lawyer Blair Clark, a University of South Florida professor. After suffering a heart attack Sept. 9, 2000, his children, who stood to inherit much of his estate, claimed they wanted to honor his wishes to remove him from a ventilator and feeding tube and allow him to die. His wife, Ping, however, believed his condition could improve with therapy and claimed only one month later treatments had not been given enough time.

Unlike Terri Schiavo, Blair Clark, 58, had a living will, which stated: "If the situation should arise in which there is no reasonable expectation of my recovery from severe physical or mental disability, I request that I be allowed to die and that life-prolonging procedures not be provided."

However, his wife believed there was still a reasonable expectation of recovery.

"His living will did not say, 'Don't save me, just let me die,'" his wife pleaded. "They want to kill Blair and I don't know why. I want to ask, 'What's the rush?' I'm the only one who wants to save him. Every time I say yes, they say no. I had to go to court to give him blood."

But on Oct. 24, 2000, Greer ruled in favor of the children and against the wishes of the wife, ordering all mechanical ventilation and intravenous nutrition stopped.

Ping Clark, of Chinese descent, argued that four days of Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture treatments had showed promise. She asked only for 30 more days of ventilator support and treatments.

Clark relied heavily on the opinion of neurologists, some of whom claimed Clark's chances of recovery were no greater than one in a thousand.

"If you love somebody, one in 1,000 is a chance worth taking, argued Dennis Rogers, Ping Clark's attorney.

After the ruling, Clark's wife was distraught and couldn't bear to visit the hospital to watch him die.

"I cannot see him die," she cried. "I know how much he wants to live. They'll be guilty their whole lives for killing Blair Clark."
This is why living wills are just plain dangerous. They are tools of the euthanasia lobby. Better see the alternative I linked to earlier.

 
103soxzeitgeist
ID: 62332415
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 16:33
She had no adequate ad litem.

I don't know if you're being purposefully obtuse and dishonest on this one, or if you're just woefully uninformed yet again, but this seems to be a real sticking point for you, baldwin.

She's had more than one, and they have been appointed by different judges. In fact they were appointed by different courts for goodness sake. Jay Wolfson PhD, is just the latest ad litem representation Terri has had. Richard Pearse Jr. and John H. Pecarek also acted in that capacity.

Again, your predeliction for conspiracy not with standing, are all of these people involved in a plot to kill Terri?
 
104StomoDotCom
ID: 2241718
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 16:35
I don't understand how some people even have the audacity to say let the lady starve to death. What is wrong with people? I was just watching CNN and it said 82% of Americans disagree with the intervention of Congress in this situation. Hold on 82%? WHen was the last time 82% of Americans agreed on anything, even something moral?
The fact of the matter is there is a difference between brain damaged and brain dead. And although I am not a doctor, and heck im even a democrat, what do we have to lose with giving this lady a chance? Why not rehab her, see how she comes around. Has she even had an MRI?
I have been following this case carefully since it's beginning and it's really bugging me that appeal after appeal is getting struck down. And I find it ironic...If I were to starve my dog to death, I'd go to jail. WE even have laws that make suicide attempts by the mentally retarded illegal. How is this any different?? Let her live.

P.S. I am not Catholic, but doesn't catholicism speak against euthenasia??
 
105Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 16:42
SDC: People are against Congress butting in where they shouldn't be.

If your dog told you to kill him if he was ever hit by a car and couldn't care for himself anymore, you'd have a pretty good analogy.
 
106Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 16:48
If your dog told you to kill him if he was ever hit by a car and couldn't care for himself anymore

I'd have more problems than whether to put Rover down or not.

P.S. I am not Catholic, but doesn't catholicism speak against euthenasia??

Yes it does. Unequivicably. What's happening to Terri is not euthanasia though. It's the the witholding of non-extraordinary medical care - which also compltely adverse to Church teaching. PD should have answered that one.
 
107Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 16:51
Even if it were a talking dog, MBJ? C'mon! :)

 
108walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 16:52
I guess it's different #104 because it's not been going on for just 1 week, but for 15 years. When does it end? When you ask: "why don't we just give her a chance? Whadda we got to lose?" I think the answer is: "Did that, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again."

How many years do you want this poor lady to exist like this? Like a zombie. Heck, if SHE wants to live this way, then yes, leave her be. But unfortunately, all we know are her wishes through her guardian, which is her bizarro husband. It's too bad there is not greater evidence of her wishes, but your reasoning makes sense if her condition was recent, but it's been a very loooong time.

What is curious is that even after 15 years, her parents want to keep her going. I guess the other side of me says: "Well, if her hubby has moved on to another partner and family (thank goodness for him), and her parents are the one's willing to give her care and feed her, etc., then let them. Parents are certainly qualified to be a guardian of a child." Still, if Ms. Schiavo has indicated that she would not want to live this kinda life, be it with the care of her parents or anyone else, then they have to also let go. I guess the parents dispute that she ever said or felt this way. Hence the legal battles.

I know, again, back to me, and what I suspect would be most folks here, would not want to live like this nor have my kids or wife in this condition. Not for more than 1 year. A near liquified cerebral cortex with no hope of reversal -- even with the "what if they find a miraculous cure down the line" is not fair to the injured person. It's time to let them be in peace.

Just IMO, - walk

- walk
 
109biliruben
ID: 500432513
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 17:44
Wierd. My dog talked to me (some pretty funny jokes, iirc) just last night. Fortunately, I'm 99% sure I was dreaming.
 
110sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 18:09
dreaming? or drinking heavily? ;)
 
111Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 18:14
I really do appreciate the ironies in this case that found people taking historically atypical sides.

I am a Jehovah's Witness who certainly wouldn't want the congress stealing me away from my family and doing 'what was best for me' in their eyes.

I especially wouldn't want them stealing me away from my family in the faith so that those outside the faith could have their way.

Where that analogy breaks down is that there is overwhelming circumstancial evidence that Terri's wishes were not what Michael was saying they were. Everywhere you turn in the evidence this case screams that Michael is lying about her wishes.

I also feel congress' involvement was problematic. No we don't want mob rule and heat of the moment legislation. Where that argument breaks down is that I am very much against the mob breaking into prison and stringing up the black guy. I am not so outraged when the crowd saves Robbinhood from hanging...wait, bad example, but you see my point. When the mob is resisting injustice and saving life it's just not the same thing as what we think of as 'mob justice'.

How some liberals could be so eager to kill the victim of wife abuse for the slightest twisted political advantage has just shocked me to the core thru and thru. I don't think I will ever get over this case.

I have said over and over again I just don't understand liberals but a realization is crystalizing that they can be summed up in two principles: Truth doesn't exist. Power is the only thing that does exist.



The best solution is if the police or DCF APT would just step in and save her. That is their legitimate function and Michael needs the investigation as you must understand. I admit the irony here as well. This is one of the sickest parts of government and I've railed against it mightily but even I admit they occasionally have a legitimate role to play.
 
112Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 18:18
The court was pretty clear about Terri's wishes, and Terri's parents seem to concede the point.
 
113biliruben
ID: 500432513
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 18:31
I haven't really made up my mind on this case, but I'm coming closer after reading post 90.

I do, however, find it a bit hard to believe that a 26 year old had pondered death enough to express her desires coherently to her spouse at age 26.
 
114Judy
ID: 3025107
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 18:45
Forget everything that is being said...what if you were Terri...if I could give her something it would be a simple prayer...God grace her with all the things she would pray for...WWJD...WWTD...Think...It bothers me that she may be thirsty...bothers me more that we can hang Jesus for being good and preaching good...who are we to deny her?...I wish I knew what she would want instead of what I think she would want if I were her...Blessings come in disguise sometimes...this is probably one for all of us...what if it were one of us?...There are things that are black or white....but this is all so upside down. Will any of this be another chapter in the Bible...what is the parable here? Live and let die. Have we taken it upon ourselves to play God? Let's just let Him handle it...it's too big for our small minds...pray that her prayers are answered it's all that matters... But who cares what I think.
 
115soxzeitgeist
ID: 452432417
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 19:19
I really do appreciate the ironies in this case...

I totally agree with you, baldwin. Especially since you're responsible for my belly laughs after reading the following gems you introduced into the world of RotoGuru:
The wife is not threatened by her husband's being the ultimate and natural authority in the family, because she trusts him and his judgment.

She is [a] submissive wife. If she can't convince me she allows me to make the final decision even if it is counter to her judgement.

I've been rock steady in saying the state should keep their hands off...[of marriage.]
 
116Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 20:11
For those who think that justice is always served in our courtrooms, I am reminded of the famous case of Reuben "Hurricane" Carter

This is the story of Rubin Hurricane Carter, and how he was railroaded by two lying criminals into spending 20 years behind bars for a crime he didn't commit. Lies got the hurricane into prison, Habeas Corpus got him out. It is unbelievable to think that our legal system would intentionally suppress evidence to get a conviction for an innocent hurricane carter. In the end justice prevailed, but how and what happened? Follow the link below to read the story of Hurricane Carter, and the famous trial and conviction that kept an innocent man behind bars for 20 years.

Ironic to compare Bob Dylan and George Bush, but the "left" needs to see their hypocrisy on this case, or wallow in the right's contention that their opposition will take any position as long as it is counter to their own.

Baldwin is correct in his statement: there is overwhelming circumstancial evidence that Terri's wishes were not what Michael was saying they were.

I might change "overwhelming" to something a bit milder, but I'm really concerned that judges are more concerned with watching other judges backs than dispensing justice sometimes.
If there is absolutely no reasonable doubt in anyone's mind, I suggest you refresh your memory with the Hurricane Carter story, counting the years and judges and appeals involved before there was justice served.
 
117Tree
ID: 212401018
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 20:19
PV - to compare a case of racial injustice, of which Hurricane's was one of many, to this case, is totally apples and oranges.

Baldwin - How some liberals could be so eager to kill the victim of wife abuse for the slightest twisted political advantage has just shocked me to the core thru and thru. I don't think I will ever get over this case.

1. no one is eager to kill her. all things being equal, i think most people would want her happy, healthy, and alive.

2. there is no proof of wife abuse.

3. there has been no one from the left citing this as politics. it was the conservative branch of this country that brought this into the political arena. it was congress, the governor of florida, and the president of the united states, all very much right-leaning, that made this into a political issue.

all these things that shock you are either not true, or complete figments of your imagination.

what shocks me is that you continue to believe these things that have been shown to be untrue, nd you continue to dismiss those who point out fallacies in your arguments.
 
118culdeus
ID: 492152212
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 20:34
I'm pretty sure Baldwin is the only one on the planet still running with the wife abuse angle. Good grief.

Don't you think that the family would be using this against him. Seriously.
 
119Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 20:44
Tree,
Sometimes you're just as obstinate as Baldwin. Judicial misconduct, judicial prejudice, and judicial brotherhood is the claim. It doesn't matter if the case involves racial issues, euthanasia issues, drug issues or jaywalking.
 
120Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 20:55
Greer's final statement today.
"By clear and convincing evidence, it was determined she did not want to live under such burdensome conditions and that she would refuse such medical treatment-assistance," Greer wrote.

What clear and convincing evidence? Because Michael said so?

 
121Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 20:59
What evidence that she did not?

 
122StomoDotCom
ID: 2241718
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 21:31
Guy I just thought of something...

I'm pro keeping Terry alive, but wouldn't killing her be a waste in more than one way? For instance, not only will she suffer, but consider this...the only part of her body that really doesn't work and is non-transplantable is her brain; possibly her heart also. What about kidneys, liver, lungs, etc?? You guys get my point?
I want her to stay alive, but if shes dieing from starvation, why not let the organs go to somewhere? I mean I know what it's like to need an organ...a member of my family needs an organ for something.

Just a thought that crossed my mind while watching Larry King Live
 
123biliruben
ID: 190491720
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 21:38
She's been in bed 15 years. I'm not sure her organs are of the highest quality.

 
125Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 21:47
culdeus

They are, seriously.
 
126StomoDotCom
ID: 2241718
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 21:48
Hemlock society? I want her to live dude, hello?
 
127Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 21:57
Stomo

Far enuff, I was a little quick on the trigger there but the idea of killing people like Terri who are minimally conscious is only exceded in horror by your idea of further harvesting minimally conscious people for their organs. How prescient was the movie "Coma"? I thot it was schlock at the time. Who knew some of our doctors actually are that depraved?
 
128Tree
ID: 212401018
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 22:33
Warrior (formerly Jim Hellwig, formerly Ultimate Warrior, now, legally, Warrior) speaks out on the case...
 
129Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Thu, Mar 24, 2005, 22:48
Cranford, euthanasia spokesman, monster

Do a control F for Cranford on this site and see Cranford recomending witholding food and water from children.

Freaking inhuman monster.
 
130sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 00:41
For those who think that justice is always served in our courtrooms...

Dont think anyone here has EVER said, justice is always served. Or much of anything is always anything either.

re 117 pt 3; I can almost allow within my mind, Gov Bush taking a hard look at the case. Afterall, it is state court which granted the designation of guardian to Michael, and its states rights which are on the line. I can accomodate the head administrative official of the state, to have some authority on the matter. Congress however, is an entirely different matter.


re 120: What evidence do any of us not in the courtroom, ever see on any legal issue? Judges render their decisions and if they are wrong, they get overturned on appeal. This decision was rendered, appealed and upheld, appealed again and upheld, appealed again and upheld, appealed again and upheld, appealed again and upheld, appealed again and upheld, appealed again and upheld, appealed again and upheld....how gddmn often does a case have to be decided upon, before the gddmn case is decided? How many recounts of the election results are necessary before its over? How many "life time" suspensions does one get? (discounting steve howe) How many appeals do you want to allow a death row inmate? What about when SCOTUS opts not to hear the appeal? This is a legal matter, and to trifle with the legal process in this case, is to set an incredibly dangerous precedent into motion. Not one I care to see on a roll either. Do we want to turn other court proceedings into publlic popularity contests? Voting on acquittals/convictions along with voting for the Prom King and Queen? How much of a travesty do you want to make of our legal system? How much of the past 200 years of democracy, do you want to throw out the window with the trash?
 
131nerveclinic
ID: 182312022
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 05:32
Baldwin

It's no coincidence this is all winding down on Easter weekend...they have their timing down don't they?

I'm serious.

 
132Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 05:37
The hair on the back of yer neck, huh? WOW, but that is a point.
 
133Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 06:24
Honestly Nerve, of all the people I have met on the web you have opened my eyes far and away the most. Cutting edge stuff, buddy.
 
134Judy
ID: 15253254
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 06:32
This case is not about justice...both sides are arguing their love for Terri...justice...well we don't have a just system here...it's all become complacent...we have laws that change laws and more laws to change them...then it repeats...We need the wisdom of Solomon...the parents, children and husband all need our prayers...Readers Digest, this month, says there is proof of the power of prayer...Terri probably will never know the power her life has had over us...or better,how much her life and death mean to us...aren't we all always looking for the meaning to life, are we not?
 
135Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 06:43
Something I posted elsewhere on the web...
It is not death I fear, but ‘personhood theory’, the ethical theory that people have to prove they are human enuff to deserve to live. We thot we had that beaten back when Jefferson announced all men had inalienable rights. We thot we had that beaten back when the concentration camps were emptied.

I can’t believe some in america are suggesting we start a list of persons whose lives are not worth living. The truth is that for the past ten years if we have even made passing remarks about heroic measures, the courts have started to starve and dehydrate you even if you are able to beg for food and water.

I am not about to make the Niemoeller mistake: First they came for the minimally conscious, but I was not minimally conscious. Then they came for the alzheimer’s victims, but I was not an alzheimer’s victim. Then they came for those in cronic pain, but I was not in chronic pain. Then they came for the retarded but I was not retarded…

And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

We are almost all going to become disabled to some extent some day. Unless you want to be living in a society where the courts and your relatives insist you have a duty to die, you had better dig your heals in now, because it is already ten years past time you did.

 
136Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 06:55
See #374 in the part 1 thread for Marjorie Nighbert's nightmare forced starvation/dehydration despite the fact she was begging for food and water.
 
137Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:02
This is going to be one of my internet taglines from now on...
The Euthanasia Lobby is Already Planning Your Murder
 
138Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:08
A nice comdendium of highlights of Jeb Bush's case for Terri...
- Terri has not had a neurological exam in the last three years.

- There is a very high rate of false diagnosis of PVS

- There is an alternative diagnosis "minimally conscious state" that has arisen in the last few years. This diagnosis was not around when Terri was initially diagnosed.

- her cerebral cortex is not destroyed, some remains. The brain can often rebuild and rewire itself.

- New studies have shown that when people in a minimally conscious state hear loved ones read to them, large sections of their brains lit up. This was completely unexpected to neurologists.

- there is much we do not know about PVS. Doctors really don't know a lot about people who are impaired.

- The affadavit then goes into specific actions that show that Terri is probably minimally conscious, rather than in PVS.

 
139Judy
ID: 15253254
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:14
A "duty to die?" Life is a force...recently a 14 year old boy, a "savant" acomplished everything a human could...and at 14 having done everything literally! decided he could do more...by dying so others could live...he comitted suicide so many others would get his organs and live...by his life many more could live...and his parents are asking to be left alone to morn...A duty to die? what the hell is that? The Hitler's have not not conquered this world...we are here because goodness prevails...and you should know that Balwin...a man of cloth...the will to live preceeds everything...it's not human nature to kill one another...but to have compassion.
 
140Judy
ID: 15253254
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:17
I'm not to worried about dying.
 
141Judy
ID: 15253254
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:20
so I spelled your name wrong...sorry
 
142Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:29
OMG, Nerve, is this ever right on the money, as were you...

OSCAR Schindler endangered his own life to save the lives of Jewish people. A true hero, a man to be admired and emulated, he placed the lives of others before his own.

I wonder if somewhere in the perverted mind of Florida attorney, George Felos, Terri Schiavo nee Schindler has to die, because of the role of her namesake in saving more than a thousand Jews from their role as "sacrificial lambs?" Felos is the attorney representing Michael Schiavo, the man who wants to starve to death his estranged and brain damaged wife.

On the face of it the question may seem frivolous but when one is confronted with the writings of Felos all thoughts of frivolity quickly evaporate.

Consider the following passages from his book, Litigation As Spiritual Practice.

"The Jewish people, long ago in their collective consciousness, agreed to play the role of the lamb whose slaughter was necessary to shock humanity into a new moral consciousness. Their sacrifice saved humanity at the brink of extinction and propelled us into a new age."

[been trying to make that sacrifice complete, you freaking nazi? - B]

Did it really? I wonder what The Holocaust Museum would have to say about that. Or perhaps Nazi hunter, Simon Wiesenthal?

As an Australian it seems unbelievable to me that George Felos has not been cut down to size. In my country the man wouldn't fly. He wouldn't qualify as a tall poppy and we tend to put pipsqeaks back in their boxes down here.

But, Florida is not Australia and in Florida George is a big man with big boasts, proud of his "power."

"I can truly say my wife was enamored with me," he boasted. "I suppose power and success really are potent aphrodisiacs as my spouse had made particularly evident our previous night at the Governor's Inn."

One good night at the Governor's Inn, ay? What a shame he wasn't referring to nights in a cell at the Governor's pleasure!

Still, as enamored as his wife may have been with his power and success on that celebrated night, George's massive ego took a beating when she decided that life with him was not for her. Perhaps his power couldn't sustain his prowess.

He was possessed by murderous thoughts.

"That weekend I experienced rage. Savage, unadulterated, and murderous rage.....I was on fire, fueled by thoughts of bludgeoning and tearing her apart," he wrote.

These alarming passages make me wonder just how much George Felos has in common with his client, Michael Schiavo. I feel prompted to ask if the multiple trauma suffered by Terri Schindler Schiavo around the time of her collapse in February 1990 had anything to do with a "murderous rage" on the part of Michael after he was told his company as a spouse was no longer desired. Perhaps this is just another reason Felos feels such an affinity with Mr Schiavo.

It's no secret that the Schiavo marriage was in trouble. According to Terri's brother, Bobby, and an ex girlfriend and workmate, Terri had confided in them her thoughts of separation and divorce. Her marriage had broken down and she was trapped in an unhappy marriage where her husband exercised undue power and control over her life, even the miles she drove in her car.
 
143Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:44
The one thing Nerve doesn't get is that there is an actual spiritual dimension to this.

I just found out Judge Greer's college roommate was the occultist 'prince of darkness' Jim Morrison.
 
144Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:48
Notice that 'Bonesman' [an occultist society] Jeb Bush is now developing aligator arms as I predicted.
 
145soxzeitgeist
ID: 39257256
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 07:57
ROTFLMAO!

Always good for a laugh when the thread has degenerated into nothing but conspiracy theories, eh baldwin? I'm off tho listen to the Doors to see if there are any messages in there about Greer one day becoming a judge...I guess you never had any experience in college with housemates who you didn't particularly care for, either.

(Apologies to Nerve, who at least when posting theories makes certain that they are at least plausable).
 
146Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 08:19
The laughter of fools is just so much inappropriate static.
 
147Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 08:26
You can get five years for starving cows but Cranford can run around the country starving people.
 
148sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 08:26
and the rantings Baldwin of a lunatic? What would you classify them as?
 
149Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 09:46
This is going to be one of my internet taglines from now on...
The Euthanasia Lobby is Already Planning Your Murder


damn, i hate when i find something so hysterical i laugh and hot coffee comes out of my nose...

if you want to be honest, perhaps you could go with:

"Right Wing Christian Terrorists want to deny me personal freedoms, interject religion into government, and end 230 years of the U.S. Constitution and division of powers between the three branches of government."

that would be keen. and truthful.
 
150Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 09:57
That is healthy for you actually, the effect is what happens when the truth slams into your cognitive dissonance triggering momentary awareness.
 
151biliruben
ID: 531202411
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:01
When the bats start dive-bombing the convertable, you know you've reached Thompsonesque ultra-super-duper-awareness, and it's time to take more ether.
 
152Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:04
Personal experience?
 
153biliruben
ID: 531202411
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:06
No. I hear ether gives you a wicked headache.
 
154Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:08
One of the things that makes me laugh, tree, is that this is the very Congress who have tried to curtail lawsuit awards and Medicaid, the two things which have paid for Terri's care all this time.

If they had their way, the resources to support Terri would have been exhausted years ago.
 
155Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:15
That makes you laugh?
 
156Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:22
If they had their way, the resources to support Terri would have been exhausted years ago.

If I had my way Judge Greer would be prosecuted for allowing Michael to use the money awarded to treat Terri, go to Felos to kill Terri. Yes Greer actually had to approve that.

If I had my way Terri would have had $700,000 worth of therapy coming to her.

At worst if I had my way Terri's parents would be giving Terri a drink right now. Those tubes are only there for the nurses' convenience. Terri's parents could be giving her a drink of water without tubes right now if Pinellas County didn't have euthanasia supporting judges.
 
157Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:29
I thot you guys were against torture?
 
158Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:29
Sure, Baldwin, but your requests are not constitutionally questionable.
 
159Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 10:43
Read the following this morning, as I have stated I believe that the law is being followed but now that I know how and when the law was passed it stinks, frankly this "sounds like" premeditated murder...

The Hapless Misadventures of the Pinellas County Court System keeps getting stinkier and stinkier and scarier and scarier. Michael Schiavo's attorney George Felos took his case and then filed the petition to introduce HB 2131 in 1999. Then the law in Tallahassee gets changed. Then the Schiavo case gets heard. In that order.

In April 1999 - House Bill 2131 was introduced in the Florida legislature by the Florida Elder Affairs & Long-Term Care Committee to amend Section 765 (Civil Rights) of the Florida Statutes. The amendments to Section 765.101 were the legal definition of "life prolonging procedures" to add: "INCLUDING ARTIFICIALLY PROVIDED SUSTENENCE AND HYDRATION, WHICH SUSTAINS, RESTORES, OR SUPPLANTS A SPONTANEOUS VITAL FUNCTION". It becomes law on October 1, 1999.

Who lobbied for changing the law to make food and water be defined as "artificial" life support in 1999?

HB 2131 GENERAL BILL by Elder Affairs & Long-Term Care (HFC); Argenziano; (CO-SPONSORS) Heyman; Sobel; Reddick; Fiorentino; Bilirakis; Littlefield; Kosmas; Bitner; Jacobs; Levine; Bloom.

David Allen contacted the Clerk of The Florida House and was informed that "Bilirakis" was Representative "Gus Michael Bilirakis" (terms 1998 - 2000 and 2001 - 2003).

Note that the hospice where Terri Schiavo has been held is operated by Suncoast Hospice. Rep. Gus Michael Bilirakis lists himself on the Suncoast Hospice Board of Directors - along with George Felos who filed the suit in the summer of 1998 to withdraw food and water form Terri Schiavo. Who else has also been on that Board?

Our good ole boy judge has worked side by side as county commissioner with Barbara Sheen Todd (county commissioner) for eight years. Barbara Sheen Todd is on the board of, you guessed it, the hospice where Terri Schiavo is kept prisoner by her husband, Michael Schiavo, who lives with another woman that he has two children with.

Also, Judge Greer's fellow judge, Judge John Lenderman is the brother of Martha Lenderman, also on the, you got it, the same hospice board.

Perhaps other legislators as well were seeking this change!

Was HB 2131 (in 1999) "enabling" legislation specifically sought by George Felos to allow him to withdraw food & water from Terri Schiavo with the State's blessing?

legal Premeditated murder?
 
160Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 11:06
If he owned a hospice, it seems to me that the conflict would be if he tried to make sure people stayed in them as long as possible.
 
161Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 11:19
If I had my way Judge Greer would be prosecuted for allowing Michael to use the money awarded to treat Terri, go to Felos to kill Terri. Yes Greer actually had to approve that.

how very Christian of you. prosecuting innocent people. welcome back to the crusades.

If I had my way Terri would have had $700,000 worth of therapy coming to her.

because the last 10+ years of care didn't cost more than $700,000???!??!!? do you think the money went to personal frivolities???

At worst if I had my way Terri's parents would be giving Terri a drink right now. Those tubes are only there for the nurses' convenience. Terri's parents could be giving her a drink of water without tubes right now if Pinellas County didn't have euthanasia supporting judges.

Terri's parents wouldn't be giving her anything right now other than flowers if the law had been followed correctly for the past several years, instead of nonsensical appeal after nonsensical appeal.
 
162Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 11:40
Felos has received hundreds of thousands and Terri hasn't received therapy one out of the money Michael promised to spend on Terri for a normal lifespan. Some doctors were ripped off for hundreds of thousands over a false premise.
 
163Sludge
ID: 54692111
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 11:51
...if the law had been followed correctly for the past several years, instead of nonsensical appeal after nonsensical appeal.

Do you honestly believe that it's that cut and dried, Tree?
 
164Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 11:57
Do you honestly believe that it's that cut and dried, Tree?

i believe that at some point you have to accept:

1. the law is not on your side.
2. your child is not going to get better.
 
165Sludge
ID: 54692111
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 12:29
i believe that at some point you have to accept:

1. the law is not on your side.
2. your child is not going to get better.


I'm pretty sure that you believe that for this case, but I'm also pretty sure that you wouldn't make the same kind of argument for a death row inmate (innocent or not). I mean, at some point they have to accept that:

1. The law is not on their side, and
2. There is definitely not going to be any exculpatory evidence that will come to light.

Right?
 
166Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 13:01
I'm pretty sure that you believe that for this case, but I'm also pretty sure that you wouldn't make the same kind of argument for a death row inmate (innocent or not).

isn't that what happens anyway? they exhaust their appeals?

that's why i'm against the death penalty.
 
167Sludge
ID: 54692111
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 13:25
isn't that what happens anyway?

I'm glad you concede that point. Because following the logic you presented in 164, the appeals made by death row inmates are, in your words, "nonsensical" because the main argument you gave for them being nonsensical is that they are basically futile.
 
168Sludge
ID: 54692111
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 13:26
because the main argument you gave for them being nonsensical is that they are basically futile.

Should read as...

...because the main argument you gave for them being nonsensical in the Shiavo case is that they are basically futile.
 
169Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 13:35
absolutely. there comes a point when you must give up the ghost on all matters. the Schiavos want to believe their daughter will get better, because she's their daughter, and the love her.

but the reality is that she hasn't gotten better in 15 years, she's not going to get better, and just because every snake oil salesman named Bush, DeLay, or Terry fights convinces you otherwise, it doesn't make it so.
 
170Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 13:43
but the reality is that she hasn't gotten better in 15 years

That will happen when you deny all therapy.
 
171Sludge
ID: 54692111
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 13:45
But the point is, Tree, that I don't believe you would say the same regarding the major players in a death penalty trial.
 
172Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 14:20
Sludge - i already said it. do away with the death penalty, as we should, and there is no issue.
 
173Sludge
ID: 54692111
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 14:56
*sigh* Like talking to a brick wall.
 
174sarge33rd
ID: 34251187
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 15:23
Baldwin, you continue to insist that Michael had spent not dime one on Terris care. from what can find, this is simply not true. You have referred to him numerous times as an accomplice to commit murder. This is not true. You have referred to him as a spousal abuser. This is not true. You insist that he is only after the mney, yet he recently declined a $10,000,000 offer to relinguish gaurdianship to Terris parents. So that assertion on your part is not true.

point being; when all you do is repeat, spread and disseminate flasehoods....your own credibility takes it in the shorts.

Terri Schiavvo the wife...is and has been gone for a very long time. Terri Schiavvo the daughter, is and has been gone, for a very long time. Terri Schiavvo the mother, is and has been gone, for a very long time. What remains, is the body that once housed that personna. Thats it. A shell. A shadow of what once was. A lifeform, which is now little more advanced, than an amoeba. Its well past time...to let her go.
 
175Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 15:45
I haven't said he hasn't spent anything on Terri.

I said he hasn't allowed any therapy and even tried to kill her with denial of treatment since at least Feb of 1993 which was @ three months after Michael convinced a court he wanted to care for Terri for a normal lifespan and needed over a million dollars to do it. He posted do not resuscitate order on her charts in Feb 1993.

He's turned down a million dollars that would be the admission that he wasn't really interesting in Terri's wishes. Something an attempted murderer still in the act had best not do. Where did you hear ten million?

A lifeform, which is now little more advanced, than an amoeba.

And you know this how? The National Review says there are now over 50 doctors willing to tesify Terri is not PVS.
The Rev. Robert Johansen has been trying to marshall the medical arguments against allowing Terri Schiavo to starve to death, and today he makes a remarkably persuasive case in the National Review Online. He notes that they have lined up almost 50 heavily qualified doctors, most of them board certified and/or professors of medicine, who are doubtful of the adequacy of the diagnosis of Persistent Vegitative state (PVS) that has been given to Terri. Yet the Judge in the case, George W. Greer, seems not to want to hear what they have to say: (emphasis supplied)

So how can Judge Greer ignore the opinions of so many qualified neurologists, some of whom are leaders in the field? The answer is that Michael Schiavo, his attorney George Felos, and Judge Greer already have the diagnosis they want.
Terri’s diagnosis was arrived at without the benefit of testing that most neurologists would consider standard for diagnosing PVS. One such test is MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). MRI is widely used today, even for ailments as simple as knee injuries — but Terri has never had one. Michael has repeatedly refused to consent to one. The neurologists I have spoken to have reacted with shock upon learning this fact. One such neurologist is Dr. Peter Morin. He is a researcher specializing in degenerative brain diseases, and has both an M.D. and a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Boston University.

In the course of my conversation with Dr. Morin, he made reference to the standard use of MRI and PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scans to diagnose the extent of brain injuries. He seemed to assume that these had been done for Terri. I stopped him and told him that these tests have never been done for her; that Michael had refused them.

There was a moment of dead silence.

“That’s criminal,” he said, and then asked, in a tone of utter incredulity: “How can he continue as guardian? People are deliberating over this woman’s life and death and there’s been no MRI or PET?” He drew a reasonable conclusion: “These people [Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer] don’t want the information.”

Dr. Morin explained that he would feel obligated to obtain the information in these tests before making a diagnosis with life and death consequences. I told him that CT (Computer-Aided Tomography) scans had been done, and were partly the basis for the finding of PVS. The doctor retorted, “Spare no expense, eh?” I asked him to explain the comment; he said that a CT scan is a much less expensive test than an MRI, but it “only gives you a tenth of the information an MRI does.” He added, “A CT scan is useful only in pretty severe cases, such as trauma, and also during the few days after an anoxic (lack of oxygen) brain injury. It’s useful in an emergency-room setting. But if the question is ischemic injury [brain damage caused by lack of blood/oxygen to part of the brain] you want an MRI and PET. For subsequent evaluation of brain injury, the CT is pretty useless unless there has been a massive stroke.”

Other neurologists have concurred with Dr. Morin’s opinion. Dr. Thomas Zabiega, who trained at the University of Chicago, said, “Any neurologist who is objective would say ‘Yes’” to the question, “Should Terri be given an MRI?”

But in spite of the lack of advanced testing, such as an MRI, attorney George Felos has claimed that Terri’s cerebral cortex has “liquefied,” and doctors for Michael Schiavo have claimed, on the basis of the CT scans, that parts of Terri’s cerebral cortex “have been replaced by fluid.” The problem with such contentions is that the available evidence can’t support them. Dr. Zabiega explained that “a CT scan can’t resolve the kind of detail needed” to make such a pronouncement: “A CT scan is like a blurry photograph.” Dr. William Bell, a professor of neurology at Wake Forest University Medical School, agrees: “A CT scan doesn’t give much detail. In order to see it on a CT, you have to have massive damage.” Is it possible that Terri has that sort of “massive” brain damage? According to Dr. Bell, that isn’t likely. Sometimes, he said, even patients who are PVS have a “normal or near normal” MRI.

So why hasn’t an MRI been done for Terri? That question has never been satisfactorily answered. George Felos has argued that an MRI can’t be done because of thalamic implants that were placed in Terri’s skull during the last attempt at therapy, dating back to 1992. But Felos’s contention ignores the fact that these implants could be removed. Indeed, the doctor who put them in instructed Michael to have them removed. Michael has never done so.

The most obvious possible explanation for what would otherwise be inexplicable behavior is that Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer don’t want to admit any information that would upset the diagnosis they already have. Dr. Morin, when told that Michael had refused an MRI, and that Judge Greer had confirmed the decision, said: “He refused a non-invasive test? People trying to do the right thing want the best and most complete information available. We don't have that in Terri’s case.” Dr. Bell agreed with this assessment, saying, “It seems as though they’re fearful of any additional information.”

 
176Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 16:15
All I had to read was that eugenics was the euthanasia of its age in that article to stop. Actually, I should have stopped when you described any non-board certified doctors as being "highly qualified."

Board certification is a minimum, not a resume builder. Any non-board-certified doctors on that list are filler.
 
177sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 16:19
what you mean to say Baldwin, is that theyhave lined up some 50 doctors willing, anxious and eager, to claim that they can "help" T Schiavvo. (Of course, this means they will be billing some $500/hr or so for their expert services.) Then when all is said and done, its "well damn. didnt work but we did our best. heres our bill..."
 
178Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 16:26
one of the non-board certified people who want to help Terri Schiavo...
 
179Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 16:41
Breaking revelation! Terri did not receive her brain injury when you thot.
If you look carefully at this time line you will see that Terri had “NORMAL” CT’s of the brain on 2/25 and 2/27.

STOP THE PRESSES

There is categorically and absolutely NO WAY Terri could have suffered MASSIVE ANOXIC INJURY TO THE BRAIN ON 2/25 AND HAVE NORMAL CT SCAN ON 2/27

NO WAY

Brain edema begins to occur about 20 minutes after infarction and by 24 hours her brain (if she HAD suffered a massive anoxic event) would have been MASSIVELY SWOLLEN — something that could NEVER be missed and NEVER called normal.

NEVER.

If Terri’s brain CT was NORMAL 2 days after she entered the hospital than there is NO POSSIBLE WAY she suffered a massive infarction or global ischemia on 2/25.

THIS IS ALL WRONG

Now look at 3/30. Suddenly she develops NONCOMMUNICATING HYDROCEPHALUS.

WHAT?

Did anyone ask HOW? How did she develop noncommunicating hydrocephalus suddenly on 3/30/90 with 2 normal CT scans on 2/235 and 2/27??

CONCLUSIONS?

1. IF this is an accurate report (normal CT brain on 2/27 — injury on 2/25) then TERRI DID NOT suffer an event of massive ischemia on 2/25. tHERE IS NO RADIOLOGIST OR NEUROLOGIST OR NEUROSURGEON IN THE WORLD THAT WOULD DISPUTE THIS. it is impossible. tHE ct ON 2/27 WOULD HAVE BEEN grossly ABNORMAL.

2. IF TERRI DID NOT SUFFER ANOXIC DAMAGE ON 2/25 THEN THE REASON FOR HER BRAIN ATROPHY WAS CAUSED BY SOMETHING THAT OCCURRED after 2/25 namely in the hospital during February or march of 1990.

3. How does one develop NONCOMMUNICATING HYDROCEPHALUS in ONE MONTH? By a blood clot obstructing the CSF outflow from the brain at the Foramen of Magendie.

4. How does one get #3.

BY BEING HIT ON THE HEAD AND SUFFERING INTRACRANIAL HEMORRHAGE.

- codeblueblog 2004 MEDICAL WEBLOGS AWARDS: BEST CLINICAL SCIENCES WEBLOG
FINALIST: 2004 Weblog Awards: Best of the Top 2500 - 3500 Blogs
2004 MEDICAL WEBLOGS AWARDS FINALIST: BEST MEDICAL WEBLOG


Wonder how that happened…did she have any enemies? A wife abuser covering up a failed strangulation? Anything like that?
 
180Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 16:54
Jeez, someone who never examined the patient reading other doctors' notes, is coming to a different conclusion (a conclusion immediately challenged in the comments of the blog).

As has been pointed out in plenty of places, her MI was the result of very low potassium levels from her eating disorder. Ironic, eh?

Baldwin, you're desperate and its showing.
 
181Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 17:00
That is a radiologist experienced in reading scans that you are blowing off.

Ignore this if your conscience will let you.
 
182Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 17:08
You seem to be blowing off doctors' comments in the very same blog, Baldwin.

I realize this is hard for you, but all the doctors who have first hand knowledge of Terri have come to a different conclusion. You can cite all the "forms doctors" you want. The people who have the experience to make the call disagree. As do each of the courts.
 
183Tree
ID: 76471215
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 17:25
so, even if the extreme silliness in post 179 is true, Terri Schiavo is now walking around, all happy and healthy?

no. she's still an eggplant.
 
184Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 17:51
The people who have the experience to make the call disagree.

You are so dense, PD. There were only five doctors who were heard by the court. Two said she wasn't PVS. The main doctor the court relied on for a PVS diagnosis is the main paid expert for the euthanasia lobby who has never seen a patient he didn't want to euthanize. The tiebreaker doctor who sealed Terri's fate was Dr Bambakidis whose brother managed the Ohio branch of American Hellenic Education Progressive Association. George Felos just happened to be the Governor of the American Hellenic Education Progressive Association.

Yeah yeah I know it's all an innocent coincidence.
 
185Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 18:01
her MI was the result of very low potassium levels from her eating disorder. Ironic, eh?

Right right, except the reason potassium levels ever came into the picture is...
Michael also said on "Larry King Live" that Terri was bulimic prior to that night, and that her bulimia was possibly the cause of the potassium imbalance which was discovered when she was in the hospital. Bob & Mary also find this assertion incredible. Bob's reaction was "Poppycock!" Terri, they said, was quite healthy and had a healthy appetite prior to her injury. None of her friends or family ever saw any signs of any eating disorder, and there was no medical evidence of it found in her examinations.

This "potassium imbalance" is frequently touted as the explanation of what caused Terri's collapse. But it is an explanation that explains nothing. Indeed, doctors for the Schindlers testified in court, and reiterated at their news conference last Friday (October 24, 2003) that the potassium imbalance was only detected after she was brought to the hospital. This is after the paramedics had been working on her to revive her. Part of such treatment is the injection of various drugs and electrolytes to try to stimulate the heart. These injections were very likely the cause of the potassium imbalance. The potassium imbalance was an effect of her collapse and subsequent treatment, and not the cause of anything.

Terri's heart stopped for several minutes that night, and that stoppage caused the brain damage that led to her current condition. It is frequently asserted in press accounts that Terri had a "heart attack." This too is false. There was no heart attack, and again, doctors have testified to that effect. A heart attack causes the release of certain enzymes into the bloodstream. These enzymes are readily discovered in tests and are used as the "markers" of a heart attack. No such enzymes were found in Terri's bloodstream, nor any other evidence of a heart attack. Terri's heart was and is quite healthy: there was no heart attack.

So what happened to cause Terri to lose consciousness? No one is sure, because there was never a proper investigation. The Schindlers do not accept Michael's version of what happened to Terri. Also, Bob related, "it's in the medical record that when Terri was brought into the hospital she had bruises around her neck." Doctors for the Schindlers have testified that those bruises were consistent with manual strangulation. Furthermore, skull x-rays and head CT scans done about a year after her injury indicated fractures to the occipital region which have never been explained. These fractures are consistent with trauma to the head.

The theory that Terri was strangled gains plausibility when one considers that friends and siblings of Terri's testified that they were aware that Michael had abused Terri prior to the night of her injury. Bob & Mary were not aware of this themselves before Terri's injury. "I found out afterwards," Bob said, "that they [Terri's friends and brother] had been keeping that from me." But, Bob, explained, Terri's best friend, Jackie Rhoades, testified at the 1996 guardianship hearing that she knew Terri was being abused, that she frequently saw her with bruises on her arms and legs, and that Terri was afraid of Michael. Jackie further stated that Terri intended to divorce Michael, and that she and Terri were making plans to do that. Terri's brother Bobby also testified to his knowledge of Terri's abuse, and corroborated much of Jackie's testimony.

These allegations and the evidence behind them have been brought to court in the Schindlers' suits to have Michael removed as guardian, but have never been properly investigated. Judge Greer dismissed these allegations with a wave of his judicial wand, saying that "it would be interesting to know what happened," but that it was "irrelevant to this case." Judge Greer disregarded Jackie's and Bobby's testimony, saying that it was hearsay. That ruling will prove to be interesting in light of the judge's ruling regarding other secondhand testimony in this case.

 
186soxzeitgeist
ID: 492552517
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 19:08
Baldwin in 179 you provide a link to a blog, which in turn provides a link to it's source, which is essentially a WND caliber "news" outlet which is supported in part by ac ouple of different Christian blogs.

Hardly a source for objective information.

And since having a doctor read a report or look at a video is now passes the "Baldwin litmus test for diagnosis", I'm curious: will you ever send say, your wife, to the doctors again? Or will you just email him a picture of the mole growing on her neck and ask him if it's malignant or not.

It's against the AMA's Medical Code of Ethics to diagnose a patient you have not personally treated. Doesn't matter if you've "read the report", it's not enough.
 
187sarge33rd
ID: 322471717
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 19:12
but these arent board certified doctors sox. the ama doesnt apply to "them". *wink wink*
 
188soxzeitgeist
ID: 492552517
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 19:25
RE 185: Are you sh*tting us, B? Now Terri never was bulimic? Guess someone should have told the jury in Clearwater in 1992 that awarded the $6.8 million (later reduced to the million we hear about) to Terri and Michael for the substandard care she received, as well as the negligence of the doctors in failing to treat her bulimia nervosa.

I guess that anything goes, and nothing in this case is fact, if it's counter to what you believe.
 
189Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 19:38
Man arrested for putting contract on Schiavo and Greer

A man has been arrested and charged with offering a $250,000 award for killing Michael Schiavo.

Richard Alan Meywes was arrested in Fairview, North Carolina by the FBI and the Buncombe County Sheriff's Office.

On March 23, the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office forwarded an email to the FBI in Tampa which purportedly offered a $250,000 bounty on "the head of Michael Schiavo." The email placed an additional $50,000 bounty for the elimination of a judge who recently denied a request to intervene in the Schiavo case.

 
190Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 19:39
He must really value life.
 
191Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 19:42
So stupid I have trouble believing it's for real.
 
192Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 19:49
Sox

For your information as far as I can tell Dr Hammesfahr who is on my side has spent more time examining Terri, ten hours, than any other doctor in this case. The main doctor responsible for getting Terri killed spent 45 minutes.

And I intend to keep myself and my family as far away from the clutches of Dr Cranford and any like-minded doctors as is humanly possible.
 
193Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 20:11
Nerve

Turley [I think is his name] on Fox just made a point you'll find interesting. He said it was just amazing that Jeb Bush held a press conference to announce he was going to take custody of Terri. He said if you really mean to do that you just do it. Announcing it is just begging for an injunction.

Aligator arms from the bonesman. Mere posturing.
 
194soxzeitgeist
ID: 492552517
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 20:15
And we already know that Dr Hammesfahr has an agenda of his own. (His website is full of Christian agitprop.) Just because his POV matches yours, you believe he is right, as I and many others believe the myriad other doctors and jurists who disagree with you.

And you didn't answer the question (as usual). If having a doctor read a report or look at a video is now passes the "Baldwin litmus test for diagnosis", are you comfortable just emailing a video of yourself to your doctor for your yearly check up?
 
196sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 21:11
in short, agree with Baldwin and you become a quotable source. Disagree, and you're nothing but a self-loathing-America-hating-murderous-baby-killing-communist-gay-loving-*shudder*liberal
 
197Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 21:12
Sox

All you have to do to disprove a hundred doctors' faulty PVS diagnosis is to show responsiveness. A video is sufficient if the evidence on the video is indisputable. All I need to disprove Greer/Felos/Cranford is to see video of Terri as her mother greets her and the testimony of Nurse Iyer that I linked to above. I don't even need the testimony of the fifty doctors lined up calling Greer/Felos/Cranford in effect murderers.
 
198Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 21:20
As I’ve stated before, it’s the vulture community.

The skids are greased.

Keep them alive, as the savvy and the connected strip the estate, kill them at your convenience, and hey, we can maybe even solve the social security/medicare crisis as the baby boom hits the end of the python and end up in those pretty, well respected, death camps.

Want a drink of water Gramps? Sorry, your estate just ran out and you’ve hit medicare.

 
200Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 21:54
 
201Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 22:07
More evidence of Judge Greer's corruption.
"What the court found so convincing," Bob replied, "was that Michael brought out his brother and sister-in-law, and they corroborated him. And Felos brought them out at the last minute, shortly before the trial. They weren't on the original witness list. Felos blindsided us."

I was, frankly, astonished. I'm no lawyer, but I know enough to find that somewhat irregular. Didn't your lawyer object? I asked. "Oh, yeah, Bob said. "She objected all over the place. They weren't on the witness list, and they were never deposed before the trial, but the judge allowed them in."

You'll recall that Judge Greer disallowed the testimony of Jackie Rhoades and Bobby Schindler regarding Terri's abuse, because it was hearsay. But Michael's testimony, and that of his never-deposed brother and sister-in-law, were allowed in, and found "clear and convincing". It would seem that in Judge Greer's courtroom, some kinds of hearsay are more convincing than others. - More from Terri's parents retort to Michael's Larry King interview.
I'd like a lawyer's take on that move by Greer.
 
202Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 22:46
Alan Keyes on 'aligator arms' Jeb Bush...
ALAN KEYES, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think what we actually have here—I have always thought it kind of strange that they would say,get the government involved.

The minute the judiciary is involved in something, the government is involved. It‘s a branch of government. And, in this particular case, it‘s a branch of government that, in the form of Judge Greer and now all the other courts, are—is disregarding a basic right of Terri Schiavo, the right to life, that is actually explicitly guaranteed in the Florida Constitution. Article 1, Section 2 says that every natural person shall inalienable rights, among them, the right to enjoy and defend life.

And, right now, Jeb Bush is in the spotlight. He is the one who actually has the obligation by his oath to support, protect and defend the Constitution of Florida. And he has to move to protect the integrity of Terri Schiavo‘s constitutional rights.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: Do you not think he has done enough?

KEYES: Of course not. He hasn‘t done anything. She is being starved to death.

And the notion that the judge‘s order keeps him from acting is absurd. Just as the judges have to look at the Constitution, and if a law passed by the legislature is in their view not compatible with the Constitution, they don‘t regard that law and don‘t apply it. So, if a judge in the whole judiciary makes a decision that is contrary to the Constitution in the view of Governor Bush, he has to abide by the Constitution‘s higher law, not by the dictate of the judge.

SCARBOROUGH: Do you think we should have an Elian Gonzalez-type raid, where the governor sends in the National Guard or troops to go in and remove her and put in the feeding tube?

KEYES: I think the governor has to do what‘s necessary.

He has the supreme executive power in the state of Florida. There‘s no higher executive authority, no executive authority in the state that can challenge him. And he also is charged by oath with supporting, protecting and defending the Constitution, which is being egregiously violated in this case, because she is being done to death, when there is clearly a reasonable doubt as to whether or not this is her will. And that means it‘s just murder.

And murder, whether it‘s done by the judiciary or somebody else, is still a fundamental contravention of constitutional integrity. And he has sworn to enforce laws and uphold and defend the Constitution of Florida. So, he is duty-bound to do it. And, if he does not, then the responsibility for the outcome rests squarely on his shoulders, because the executive is charged with the power to act.

The judiciary can opine. The legislature can legislate. Only Jeb Bush can act to save her life.


 
203Judy
ID: 232242521
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 22:51
The feeding tube was put in...at that point, she should have been aloud to live until she died...don't take it out, put it back in, take it out, put it back in,take it out...and yet try to figure out again to put it back in...or not... the courts should have left well enough alone from the beginning...Right now it's not about anything but...should she be kept alive...Since the federal courts have gotten involved so deeply...maybe "they" should take custody...then responsibility could possibly be taken from our constitution...Life, liberty, and justice for all. You know what an ounce of justice would be...For Terri's parent's and husband to live in her body for 2 minutes! Some of us are going to have our fate decided for us...do we trust the one's that say they love us...or the one's we ask to carry out our last wish... Do people really believe her husband is so vicious...I don't...I just don't.
 
204Judy
ID: 232242521
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 22:56
I have met some of the most mean, cruel, vicious, and devious people on this earth...Her husband is not one of them...I don't even need to meet him...So he told a girlfriend this ruined his life...If it were my husband...my life would be ruined too!!!...and who would be out there to tell that to?
 
205Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 23:15
Michael's credibility...
I've got a deposition from two different occasions, maybe you can explain it to me. The first one I will pull up, its from November 19, 1993, in which Michael said: "He was talking about removing the feeding tube," meaning the doctor, "and I said I couldn't do that to Terri." Now that means his intention was NOT to remove the... at least in 1993. [but you didn't have any problem letting her die from an untreated bladder infection...do you know how much that hurts? - B]

Greta: That same day, in the same deposition, he said this: "I put a - after speaking with my doctor, I gave an order not to treat a bladder infection Terri had." The attorney then asked a question, "So when you made that decision not to treat Terri's bladder infection, you in effect, were making a decision to allow her to pass on?" Michael Schiavo: "I was making a decision on what Terri would want" [what, you aren't telling us Terri's decision? Why that's what you slipped up and told Larry King too - B]

Greta: So in that same day, we have two conflicting things he was saying in 1993. How do I know what to believe?

Anderson: Its HARD to know what to believe with him, because he says what the occasion demands, or whats in his financial interest. He told a medical malpractice jury just exactly one year before that deposition fragment that you put up, that he would ALWAYS take care of Terri, for the REST of his life. And yet there he was within a matter of months, directing that antibiotics be withheld. Its HARD to know.

Greta: Alright, lets go back... give me a quick rundown... the day she ah, tell me what happened her last day before she ended up in the hospital.

Anderson: Terri ahh, got her hair done that day, and spent more money than he thought she should have... They had a GREAT BIG fight before he went off to work. Ahh, she was so upset about the fight, that she called her best friend from work, a girl that she had discussed, perhaps both of them getting a divorce, and taking an apartment together... She called this girl, Jackie Rhodes, told her about the big fight... She was sufficiently upset that Jackie Rhodes asked her: "Should I come over? Should I come over and spend the night with you so you'll be safe?"

Anderson: And Terri said, "No, I'll either be asleep, or pretend to be asleep when he gets home from work."... and the next thing Jackie heard, was she was in the emergency room.

 
206soxzeitgeist
ID: 492552517
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 23:55
Baldwin, All you have to do to disprove one doctors faulty PVS diagnosis and to show responsiveness. The onus isn't on my side of the argument!

Given the fact that you believe her behavior is context-specific, why wouldn't her family release the films of her in their entirety? That would clear up the issue immediately.

Then we could see more than 30 seconds of heavily edited for appearance video casting Terri as coherent. We could see all of the wonderful things you're talking about - how she talks, how she responds in a sustained, reproducible, purposeful, and voluntary manner.

But we don't, because she can't.

Not to mention the fact that the truth is that it makes no difference whether Schiavo is PVS or minimally conscious - she can no longer tell her physician what she would want her treatment to be. The SCOTUS decided that in 1990. (Cruzan vs. Director of the Missouri Department of Health) says that it is morally and legally acceptable to withhold hydration and nutrition from a PVS patient if there was "clear and convincing evidence" that the patient wished to refuse such treatment.

At least a half dozen times, courts on every level have found this to be the case with Schaivo. You may disagree, and rave about the unfairness of it, or accuse the husband of all sorts of ulterior motives and slander the crap out of him, but that's the way it goes.

I can't think of a single other instance where a case has been put before the legal system and tried so many times without being called "frivilous".

And like I said early in the first part of this thread, on other patient in the last decade of medicine has had more scrutiny, save the Pope, and he may be lagging behind now.

Make no mistake about it - it's a tragedy, but wishing Terri wasn't in a PVS won't change a thing.
 
207soxzeitgeist
ID: 492552517
Fri, Mar 25, 2005, 23:57
And you didn't still haven't answered the question.

If having a doctor read a report or look at a video is now passes the "Baldwin litmus test for diagnosis", are you comfortable just emailing a video of yourself to your doctor for your yearly check up?
 
208Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 01:07
hmmmm..,i'm starting to have a change of heart..i mean, if Terri is able to write her own blog...
 
209Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 06:29
Yes of course Sox. If I have ever been falsely diagnosed with PVS and a runaway corrupt judge is ignoring every law to railroad me to a horrible torture death...

PUUHLEEZE accept as evidence video of me looking lovingly and obviously responding as my wife kisses my forehead.

And if you ignore that video for some small hearted selfish political game I want you to live conscious of the guilt every day for the rest of your life.

And if any doctor or judge ignores that evidence I want the rest of the world to not rest until that doctor no longer can practice medicine and that judge no longer sits on the bench.
 
210Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 06:31
As far as the yearly checkup part of your silly question goes...we aren't asking doctors if she has colon cancer. We are just asking if the obvious outward responsiveness in the videos doesn't automatically contradict the very definition of PVS.
 
211Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 06:42
More evidence of corruption on the bench...
Criminal probes launched by two Florida agencies looking into allegations the incapacitated woman was abused, neglected and exploited were shut down, despite investigators' concerns.

One investigation took place at the Department of Children and Families, or DCF, in late 2001. The other was conducted by agents with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, or FDLE, in August 2003.

Both agencies are mandated by Florida Statute 415 to detect and correct the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of disabled or vulnerable adults.


The individual whose 700-page anonymous complaint prompted the DCF to conduct a 60-day investigation into numerous alleged violations of state statutes protecting disabled and incapacitated people tells WND the DCF investigator gave him the impression he thought the allegations were credible and he was sorry the probe got aborted by his superiors.

The complainant, who wishes to remain unnamed, tells WND he spent numerous hours over a period of several weeks working with the DCF adult protective services investigator after filing his complaint in November 2001.

"It was clear to me that he found credibility in most, if not all, the charges," the complainant said of the investigator.

But when the investigator turned his report in to his superiors, he reportedly hit a brick wall.

"It went up the ladder. It crashed. The report findings were marked 'Unfounded but With Recommendations,'" the complainant recalls the investigator telling him.

When the complainant expressed disbelief at the outcome and asked what "with recommendations" meant, he says the investigator became tight-lipped.

"I've said too much. All I can say is keep up the fight," the investigator said.

At the time, DCF attorney Frank Nagatani publicly declared: "DCF is not going to get involved [in the Terri Schiavo case] until this is out of the court."

Florida Department of State Election records show Nagatani contributed to the 1998 election campaign of 6th Judicial Circuit Court Judge George Greer, the primary adjudicator in the Terri Schiavo case. While no records exist detailing the amount of Nagatani's total contribution, according to Greer's reported campaign expenditures, Nagatani was paid $18.75 on Aug. 11, 1998 for a "partial contribution refund."
Partial campaign contribution refund? Does that mean Nagatani demanded his campaign contribution back? Somehow this judge and this case became 'untouchable'. So the rest of the system was frozen out by some pressure from higher up and could not save some innocent like Terri if she ever got caught in such a meatgrinder.
 
212Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 06:53
Survivor of being 'Locked in' describes torture of deliberate starvation...
Well especially after having gone thru this myself, and the doctors assuming I was in a vegetative state, ahh when in fact I was TOTALLY aware of what was going on around me.

O'Reilly: Could you hear? Could you hear people, and see...

Adamson: I could hear, and see everything going on around me, and I had NO way to commmunicate with anyone.

O'Reilly: So you were like, paralized in every way, but you could HEAR the words, you KNEW when your husband was in the room when he was there, and all of that?

Adamson: Exactly. I KNEW what I wanted to say, ahh, I was completely PARALIZED. I had NO way of communicating at all.

O'Reilly: This is amazing. Its like an Edgar Allen Poe story...
So when they took the feeding tube out, what went thru your mind?

Adamson: When the feeding tube was turned off for eight days, ahh I was... thought I was going insane. I was screaming out, "Don't you know, I NEED to EAT!".

Adamson: And even though, until that point, I had been having a bagful of Ensure as my nourishment that was going thru the feeding tube, at that point, it sounded pretty good. Ahh, I just wanted something, ahh the fact that I had nothing, the hunger pains overrode EVERY thought I had.

O'Reilly: So you were feeling PAIN? when they removed your tube?

Adamson: Oh, ABSOLUTELY. Absolutely... To say that, ahh, especially when Michael on national TV had mentioned last week, that its a pretty painless thing to have a feeding tube removed... Its the EXACT OPPOSITE. It was SHEER torture, Bill. Sheer torture
 
213Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 06:58
Felos chuckling over Jeb Bush missing his opportunity...
Florida Circuit Judge George Greer, who ordered the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube, signed an order Wednesday afternoon prohibiting the department from "taking possession of Theresa Marie Schiavo or removing her" from the hospice. He also directed "each and every and singular sheriff of the state of Florida" to enforce his order.

DCF lawyers appealed early Thursday, thus triggering an automatic freeze on Greer's order. But when the judge learned of the situation, he canceled the automatic stay within three hours of its filing.

George Felos, the attorney for Terri's husband, Michael, told the paper he doesn't think DCF officials knew of the window of opportunity they had created until well after they filed their appeal.

"Frankly, I don't believe when they filed their notice of appeal they realized that that gave them an automatic stay," Felos said. "When we filed our motion to vacate the automatic stay ... they realized they had a short window of opportunity and they wanted to extend that as long as they could.

"I believe that as soon as DCF knew they had an opportunity they were mobilizing to take advantage of it, without a doubt."

 
214Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 08:29
more and more, i'm believing that medical science has been wrong since cavemen made that first amputation, doctors are useless, and without God, we can accomplish little except a slippery slope to hell.

the amazing skills of Terri Schiavo, first with her blog, and now with her Live Journal, have convinced me to repent, move into a cave with David Allen Coe, and shun reality.

from her Live Journal, circa Sept 2002.

*yawn*
Mom and Dad came by again tonight for yet another round of prayer healing. Enough with the chanting already!

I blinked twice during If you Love Jesus Clap Your Hands. I just love f*cking with them.
 
215Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 08:32
Sick bastard
 
216Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 09:40
funny bastard too. that stuff is comedy gold, baby.

i apologize if it's in the wrong thread though. i thought this was for humorous posts about Terri Schiavo. Lord knows there's plenty of them here...

next thing ya know, Terri's parents are gonna try and convince us she tried to speak recently...

oh, never mind. AHHHHH WAAAAAAA
 
217Old Man Greene
ID: 5728267
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 10:07
I'm not a regular poster here but I want my veiw know if only for getting it off my chest..As a parent with unconditional love for my kids I would do everything possible to keep my daughter alive..I really feel the pain of her parents..unless my daughter stated to me directly that she no longer wanted to go on...as a parent I would exhaust every avenue to keep her alive..what loving parent wouldn't..I know there is also two sides to every argument, but for me I don't believe nor do I trust anything the husband says or said..I don't believe he has the best interest for her in his heart and only cares about what's best for him..maybe I'm wrong..who know's..just a judgement from following the case..not a fact..I stand where most any parent would stand guided by my love for my daughter..Tree as far as your responses.I knew from the earlier post your feeling on this subject..I'm guessing your not a parent...but your latest posting are just a clear lack of compassion..you seem to be adutioning for Comedy Central on a very serious subject that even no matter what side your views are on you have to feel compassion for this women and her parents..I'm sure you will have some cleaver comment to come back with, but your posting says alot about you
 
218Judy
ID: 232242521
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 10:29
Said from your heart...I feel so much the same...parent child bond is never to be broken...but yet you get married and promise to forsake all others and that includes parents...Our daughter's getting married...I told her and Dave to read everything in the Bible about marriage...and the promise they will be making before God and to one another...They will become one...forsake all others...I told her to always remember once she gets married...what Dave want's will be more important then us...I asked her to hold true to that...considering that a parents love is unconditional...a marriage isn't. Letting go is the hardest thing to do...what could be harder...It's better to love then be loved...
 
219soxzeitgeist
ID: 492552517
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 10:47
RE: 209

I don't know why I bother, so this will be it for me in this thread.

Baldwin, every single time I have asked about the videos, and every time you cite them, you claim that they show a purposefuly responsive Terri.

I call that bullsh*t, or at least wishful thinking - they are snippets of film pasted together and edited for content. They convey exactly the message her parents want to send - nothing more, nothing less.

If her behavior is context-specific, why wouldn't her family release the films of her in their entirety? That would clear up the issue immediately.

We could see all of the things you're talking about, all of the things that your "witnesses" and her parents are claiming - how she talks, how she responds in a sustained, reproducible, purposeful, and voluntary manner.

And please no nonsense about how "Michael won't let them" - based on the fact that the existing snippets are clearly filmed on several different occasions (or Terri went thru costume changes) her parents should already be in possession of at least another full hour of film based on the video that has been released by her parents.

Or did they just happen to film in 30 second bytes?

Simply put, what you're proposing is unbeleivable.
 
220Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 10:59
Tree as far as your responses.I knew from the earlier post your feeling on this subject..I'm guessing your not a parent...but your latest posting are just a clear lack of compassion..you seem to be adutioning for Comedy Central on a very serious subject that even no matter what side your views are on you have to feel compassion for this women and her parents..

i am not a parent, but i definitely want kids.

i have an absolute compassion and sympathy for Terri's parents, but at some point, as responsible adults, we have to know when to let go of those we love.

just as you believe that her husband (so much for the White House's belief on "sanctity of marriage," eh?) is untrustworthy, i believe the parent's minds have been clouded by not just desperation, but also by master manipulators like Tom DeLay, GW Bush, Jeb Bush, and Randall Terry. what is in the best interest of their daughter, that being to allow her to pass away in peace as per her wishes, away from the glare of the spotlight, has been forgotten.

while the humour is dark, it is, humour. if we cannot laugh at our world around us, no matter how bad, i do believe we're living a crappy existence.
 
221Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:00
I hear ya, OMG, and I think there are many people (myself included) whose heart goes out to the parents. I'm one myself, and can only begin to imagine what they are feeling.

I don't, however, discount that Terri wanted to die under such circumstances. I think we're seeing the natural interplay between those competing wishes, played out in public mostly by people who have no trouble making hay out of very little (to no) firsthand knowledge, and who are therefore free to simply trash the other side.
 
222Judy
ID: 36235269
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:01
...If Baldwin knew everything...he wouldn't say anything...forgive him he's just a man ...everything he say's is ...question your heart...don't think that he think's he right...
 
223Judy
ID: 36235269
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:10
Tree...I'm glad to see your heart.
 
224Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:17
Judy, I am as sure Michael tried to strangle Terri as I am that the sun will come up tomorrow, maybe not for Terri but it will.

I am more sure Terri is 'in there' than I am of Tree, Sarge and Sox.
 
225Judy
ID: 36235269
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:20
You sure as hell don't know if the sun is coming up tomorrow...none of us know!
 
226Judy
ID: 36235269
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:23
Baldwin, sometimes you make alot of sense...yet like the rest of us,sometimes you make no sense...
 
227Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:23
Objective reality, Judy. Barring a supernova, it will come up whether we are here or not.
 
228Judy
ID: 36235269
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:26
True
 
229Judy
ID: 36235269
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:27
...but not for sure.
 
230Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:30
the more i read, the more i do believe that money may, at least in part, be somewhat of the root here.

sadly, for Baldwin's Cause of Fallacies, it appears that it is Terri's Schiavo's parents who are guilty of greed.

n 1992, (Michael) Schiavo had filed a medical malpractice lawsuit against two doctors who had been treating his wife before she was stricken. Late that year came a settlement: Schiavo received $300,000 for loss of consortium — his wife's companionship. Another $700,000 was ordered for Terri's care.

Mary Schindler later testified that Schiavo had promised money to his in-laws. They had helped him and Terri move from New Jersey to Pinellas County, let them live rent-free in their condominium and had given him other financial help.

"We all had financial problems" after Terri's crisis, she testified. "Michael, Bob. We all did. It was a very stressful time. It was a very financially difficult time. He used to say, 'Don't worry, Mom. If I ever get any money from the lawsuit, I'll help you and Dad.' "


-----------------------

i also found this tidbit nothing sort of astonishing:

Despite the row over money, Schiavo and the Schindlers agreed on one major point in the 2000 testimony: the extent of Terri's brain damage, according to additional court documents cited by The Miami Herald. In the documents, Pamela Campbell, then the Schindlers' lawyer, told the court that "we do not doubt that she's in a persistent vegetative state." Campbell could not be reached to confirm the statement.

now, i realize Baldwin won't accept any of this as reality, since it wasn't reported on Quacknews.com, InsaneRamblings.org, or SomePeopleWillBelieveAnything.biz, but court testimony is court testimony.
 
231Judy
ID: 36235269
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:30
Hey...besides Katie and Sarge...and of course Tree...I generally like what you have to say...didn't mean to insult you.
 
232Old Man Greene
ID: 5728267
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:49
Perm Dude

I don't discount it either..given a choice I would choose the same..I would never put my loved one's through this kind of hell...I would want them to remember me as I was..not what I became..I would want them to get on with their lives...that being said I'm speaking from the heart and don't know everything about the case..is there in fact a written document stating that dieing is her wish..or is it the word of her husband..I don't know..if it truely is her wish then I have no problem with it even as a parent..I would be devestated but like when anyone dies the hurt is felt by thoses left behind..I would have to know for sure that is want she wanted

Tree..I don't believe the interference of the above mentioned clouds their mine..it's their love for their daughter that drives that...but I do believe it gives them hope..while I believe there is no place for a political adgenda here (and I do believe that is what's happening).this is a human life were talking about..I just want what's best for her..I want to know for sure that this is what she wants
 
233Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:50
Actually PVS was a bit more loosely applied in the past. The term minimally conscious has only come into use in the last few years to calibrate the situation. Further there are two terms abbreviated PVS. One is called "persistent vegetive state" and one term is called permanent vegetative state" with the differences readily apparent. National medical oversight boards have realized large percentages [@43% is one figure I've seen] are misdiagnosed.
 
234Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 11:55
but court testimony is court testimony. - Tree

I am well aware and I shudder.

Dr Cransford is a hired gun running around the country declaring anyone who can't outrun him an unperson. For a price.

When he comes for you I'll remember you didn't want me to be quite so vocal.
 
235Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 12:44

When he comes for you I'll remember you didn't want me to be quite so vocal.


if i'm the condition Terri Schiavo is in, definitely keep your mouth shut.

i don't want to be used and abused by those who want to destroy our country from the outside in, the Frists, DeLays, and Bushes of the world...
 
236Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 12:53
I hear where you are coming from, OMG.

As for Terri's wishes, after a long court battle it was determined that she did, indeed, not want to live and stated so to her husband. But (as you might imagine) many people who take the parent's side completely refute this, even though the parents themselves have mostly condeded the point.

As for tree, well, I'll let him fight his own battles. I'm of the mind that these kinds of cases attract the worst people sometimes, regardless of whether you want them to, and given the desperation of the parents I'd imagine they feel they have "no choice."
 
237WiddleAvi
ID: 24081811
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 13:17
If as they say that see feels no pain then what does it hurt to keep her living ?? As long as someone is willing to pay for her health care then who is getting hurt ?? The husband is free to move on with his life, Terri is in no pain, Her parents are happy, and the Hospital is making money !! If she were in pain then I can understand. I just don't see how ANYONE is gaining by 'pulling the plug'.
 
238culdeus
ID: 492152212
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 13:21
Well I can sleep comfortably knowing that Jeb probably shot whatever presidental aspirations all to hell over this.

President Bush's approval below 50% for first time since inaugruation with 70% of americans saying he should have stayed the hell out of the issue.

 
239Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 13:26
If as they say that see feels no pain then what does it hurt to keep her living ?? As long as someone is willing to pay for her health care then who is getting hurt ??


We have and need to have a right to refuse to be in a hospital and recieve medical treatment - even if we're unconscious, etc. If I were convinced that Terri Schiavo had adequately made this her intent, I would support what's happening to her.

I think Congress was horribly misguided to try and impose thier will on an individual case - but I now belive that the idea of Congress addressing the issues made prominent by the Sciavo case is a good one. When a human life is at stake we need more than one person's remembrance of a passing conversation many years earlier to end that life. We need more safeguards and a higher burden of proof. i believe this is, in fact, a Constituional, and thus a national issue.
 
240WiddleAvi
ID: 24081811
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 17:28
MBJ - I agree 100%. If her intentions were known more clearly then fine. I am not saying that she didn't say that to her husband but we are making a life decision based on her if her husband is telling the truth or not.
 
241sarge33rd
ID: 34251187
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 17:40
widdle, howmany times have you had similar conversations re this subject with people close to you? How many have ever expressed the desire to be kept alive via whatever means necessary/available? I have I know, had this conversation with virtually every member of my family. Not one, none, nobody I have spoken with on this topic, has expressed an intention differing from what M Schiavvo says that Terri expressed to him. That simple first hand fact, is sufficient to incline me to believe what he is saying.
 
242Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 17:48
Widdlavi

I just don't see how ANYONE is gaining by 'pulling the plug'.

Imagine you had strangled someone half to death who just might with therapy regain the ability to finger you and you will understand all the motive you need. Even the motive to turn down a million dollars.
 
243Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 17:59
MBJ

We have and need to have a right to refuse to be in a hospital and recieve medical treatment - even if we're unconscious, etc. If I were convinced that Terri Schiavo had adequately made this her intent, I would support what's happening to her.

I agree with this up until you call food and water medical treatment. Otherwise I am all for the right to refuse medical treatment if I thot this was her wish. If her wishes were so clearly proven that she had expressed beyond a shadow of a doubt a will to starve to death I couldn't even force tubes on her. But no one can honestly say her wishes are known to that degree of certainty. I don't have any idea why anyone takes Michael's word on this at all given the physical and testimonial evidence of abuse.
 
244Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 18:13
Another side of all those who claim to care about Terri Schiavo

Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away. She got there — one minute too late. Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye.

When Johnson arrived, a police officer demanded identification; she had none. And after a hospice employee cleared her, another officer halted her for a search with a metal detector.

The delays lasted three to four minutes — the last of her grandfather's life.

"It's a terrible, extra obstacle to put in front of a family. ... Everything is about Schiavo," Johnson said. "It's all about her and in my family's case, it cost us dearly."


Family members visiting patients must pass through a police checkpoint to park, then show identification outside the door before another security screening inside. They also must walk by scores of signs decrying Schiavo's "crucifixion," "torture," and "starvation," plus navigate around hordes of media who have been camped outside.

this is basically what this case boils down to me. be it these idiots out there harassing innocent folk all the way on up to our government, this is about one family's decision and how agonizing it is.

this should not have involved the legislative branch of this government, this should not have gone to the judicial side 20+ times, and sure as shinola has nothing to do with God.

this is about one woman's wish expressed to one man - her husband.

instead, it's turned people into savages. it's made people disgrace themselves by convincing themselves that Michael Schiavo was a wife abuser, and he murdered her, despite overwhelming evidence against.

this case shows me just how disgusting most people are to me. it shows me that they're willing to dispense with common sense and reality, and instead use God as an excuse to slander otherwise good people.

it's just disgusting.

 
246Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 18:30
Michael's reaction to winning over a million dollars of therapy money for Terri was to suddenly remember for the first time after @ seven years that she wanted to die, write 'Do Not Resuscitate' on her chart and refuse her all treatment, and when her parents objected to witholding the court awarded therapy, he ran out of the room yelling "You will never see your daughter again."

Only a sick bastard, only a sick bastard could side with such a man and give his word any credence.
 
247sarge33rd
ID: 34251187
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 18:36
*ahem* my folks were married when I was born thank-you very much.
 
248Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 18:48
But indisputably sick.
 
249Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 19:06
Now, while you are busy torturing to death an innocent girl for the fun and profit of her strangler-husband, I have an Illinois Basketball game to watch.
 
250Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 19:08
"When is that b/tch ever gonna die" - Michael Schiavo, Tree, Sarge, Sox.
 
251WiddleAvi
ID: 24081811
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 19:14
sarge33rd re: #243 - Her husband said that she said to him she would want to die. Her best friend said that she said that she would NOT want to die. Right there we have uncertainty. And when it comes to life & death I think we err to the side of caution. Again, she is not in any pain by being kept alive. Why should we believe the husband any more then we should believe her best friend ?

I know I would want them to pull the plug on me but at the same time if I was in no pain and felt nothing and it meant everything to my family for me to keep on living then so be it, keep me plugged in.
 
252soxzeitgeist
ID: 362572615
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 19:33
Hey, tree and sarge, I'm thinking of having a little "When is that b/tch ever gonna die" get together next week. Why don't the two of you email me and we'll figure out a good time and date so we can coordinate our next diabolical scheme.

I thought something along the lines of a live baby luau might be nice or a "huzzah for Rwandan genocide" theme, but I'm open to suggestions.

 
253Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 19:40
I don't care what anybody says: Nobody demonizes better than a Christian.
 
254Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 19:45
Michael's reaction to winning over a million dollars of therapy money for Terri was to suddenly remember for the first time after @ seven years that she wanted to die, write 'Do Not Resuscitate' on her chart and refuse her all treatment, and when her parents objected to witholding the court awarded therapy, he ran out of the room yelling "You will never see your daughter again."

Only a sick bastard, only a sick bastard could side with such a man and give his word any credence.


and this came from where? he got the money only after he'd exhausted every possible treatment for her Baldwin, are you missing that part? are you blind, stupid, or ignorant?

oh, and i'm pretty sure falsely accusing someone of murder gets you sent to hell. i probably won't ever meet you in this life Baldwin, but man, we are gonna do some blow and hookers in hell together.

also, Baldwin, on your way to hell, be sure to ignore the fact that you've been a big proponent of this sanctity of marriage bull$hit. and now, apparently, marriage means little to you.

and Sox - the b!tch dies tomorrow. it's easter sunday. it'll give the holy rollers even more opportunities to act silly.
 
255Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 20:02
Nobody demonizes better than a Christian.

i probably won't ever meet you in this life Baldwin, but man, we are gonna do some blow and hookers in hell together.



the b!tch dies tomorrow.

Don't ever try to be more disgustingly low and vile than, tree. Can't be done.

I don't care what someone said to me; it wouldn't make me say things like that about an innocent woman. No crap that Baldwin throws out there reflects on you like that sh1t coming from your mind. It well that we say these things on the internet and not in person.

tree, I don't think any thread on these boards that you have posted on has turned into anything else than a shit fest. Baldwin's hyperbole a and personal attacks don't make anyone drop their standards that low for that long. It's all you man.
 
256Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 20:05
he got the money only after he'd exhausted every possible treatment for her Baldwin

That is complete BS and to believe it you have to ignore everything Michael said in court to receive over a million to treat her.

But then you don't really believe what Michael says either.
 
257Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 20:11
How's this for an extreme theme get together?
Let's get together and join in the fun on the Arizona border with the Minuteman Patrol!

Then, to show our patriotism, we can hand over members of Mara Salvatruchas and M-13 to the local military recruiters, who are having trouble meeting their quotas.

It would be a double whammy in protecting America, plus I hear those guys stash is muy supremo!
 
258Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 20:18
Another side benefit to the being faux Minutemen -some ACLU dudes may get caught in the crossfire!
 
259Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 20:47
Here is founding father of the euthanasia movement, George Felos...
FELOS: You know, Larry, this is the simplest way to explain it. Terri opens her eyes and closes her eyes. If her eyes are closed, and you say, Terri, open your eyes, nothing will happen. But if you say it enough times, maybe on the 50th time and you say, Terri, open your eyes and her eyes will open. If you take a little tape and just show the 50th time, someone would look at that and say, oh, my God, she's aware. But those tapes doesn't show the other 49 times.
Here is an eager-to-please Terri going to great effort to prove Felos a liar.

SEE FOR YOURSELF

Terri starts out apparently asleep. A doctor wakes her to start his tests.

Doctor: Terri. Open your eyes up...

Terri: (Startled at hearing her name. She starts moving her mouth and fluttering her eyes, like a person who is just waking up)

Doctor: Open your eyes, Terri open your eyes

Terri: (slowly at first, Terri struggles to open her eyes, then turns toward the doctor, and opens her eyes a normal amount)

Doctor: There you go, good.

Terri: (then, either to show off (?) or wanting to perform well, she leans further forward toward the doctor, looks straight at him and opens her eyes as WIDE AS SHE CAN. Note the WRINKLES ACROSS HER FOREHEAD caused by her also RAISING HER EYEBROWS as high as possible )

Doctor: [now obviously impressed] GOOD!! GOOD JOB! GOOD JOB YOUNG LADY! Good Job.
Game Set Match

By the very definition of PVS she is hereby proven to not be PVS even if there weren't a mountain of cooborating evidence. What do your own eyes call euthanasia founding father George Felos?
 
260Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 20:50
Could some moderator please fix Tree's post #21 so it will stop screwing up this thread's width please?

Add width=450 to the graphic perhaps?
 
261sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 20:51
A team of lawyers will be on hand to file civil cases against Minuteman participants if abuses occur, he said.

a team of lawyers.....

now THAT is a scarey gddmn proposition.
 
262Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 21:04
MBJ:

Nobody demonizes better than a Christian.

i probably won't ever meet you in this life Baldwin, but man, we are gonna do some blow and hookers in hell together.

the b!tch dies tomorrow.

Don't ever try to be more disgustingly low and vile than, tree. Can't be done.

I don't care what someone said to me; it wouldn't make me say things like that about an innocent woman.


i'm sorry, did you miss some of this thread?

of the three things you just attributed to me, one i didn't say, one i quoted from some random source Baldwin provided, and one, i did say.

the one i did say had nothing to do with Terri Schiavo, so i'm not sure where you get off being so pompous to me.

go back and read the thread MBJ.
 
263Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 21:22
The chain of links to see that video is
Here
then:
multimedia
then on the right:
asked to open her eyes

Then hit back on your browser and watch her respond to her mother under videos of Terri, Terri and her mother

I'll tell you one video we will never see. A video of her looking into Michael's eyes like that.

 
264Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 21:35
Unreal Illinois win just now. Down 13 with four minutes to go, comeback win
 
265Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 21:37
Politically Correct announcing crew didn't utter the phrase "Fighting Illini" once the whole game.

*shakes head*
 
266sox..err..anonymous
ID: 362572615
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 21:48
*laughing*

I'm so, so, so sorry. I know I said that I was done with this thread, but since this really has nothing to do with Terri, and because I was laughing so hard; 259 links to a site that provides these gems:
"[Easter] is Satanic, or devilish worship."

"Human sacrifices are performed all through the Easter holidays. These satanic ritual killings begin on "Good" Friday at 12:01 a.m. and continue through Easter Sunday."

"Easter is not really a holy day unto the Lord Jesus Christ."

"The Lord Jesus Christ is not pleased with those who call themselves by his name and still insist on observing a pagan, full-moon-based holiday while He watches the worldwide, simultaneous sacrifices of thousands upon thousands of people while his church does nothing to counter these atrocities!"
Somebody better alert the Pope that Easter needs to be called off
 
267Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 21:53
Look it up in any encyclopedia. The name Easter comes from the pagan goddess Astarte.

To convert the pagans they just let them keep their popular pagan holidays unfortunately.
 
268Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 22:04
To convert the pagans they just let them keep their popular pagan holidays

How white of them.
 
269Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 22:16
Meanwhile, down on the Southern border, Bush sides with the ACLU:

WACO, Texas -- President Bush yesterday said he opposes a civilian project to monitor illegal aliens crossing the border, characterizing them as "vigilantes."

He said he would pressure Congress to further loosen immigration law.

More than 1,000 people - including 30 pilots and their private planes ó have volunteered for the Minuteman Project, beginning next month along the Arizona-Mexico border. Civilians will monitor the movement of illegal aliens for the month of April and report them to the Border Patrol.

Mr. Bush said after yesterday's continental summit, with Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin at Baylor University, that he finds such actions unacceptable.

"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America," Mr. Bush said at a joint press conference. "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way."


Too bad he doesn't feel the same way about war.
 
270Stuck in the 60s
Dude
ID: 274132811
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 22:52
This is ridiculous. There are many, many cases each year in which parents and spouses disagree about terminal decisions. Absent malice on the part of the spouse, he or she always acts for the patient. Ultimately, someone has to make the final decision and it shouldn't be the parents.

The problem here is that some are suggesting "right to life" trumps wishes of patient.

P.S. Just as an aside, I'd urge all to download a living will. My wife and I have just done that and we're feeling a bit more secure.

Don

PPS - This case has nothing to do with euthanasia. It has to do with complying with a request the woman made through her husband that she'd prefer not to live as a turnip.
 
271sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 22:54
a little red-pencil editing PV, and you get shrubs intended meaning....

from;

"I'm against vigilantes in the United States of America," Mr. Bush said at a joint press conference. "I'm for enforcing the law in a rational way."

we remove the edited portions and arrive at his personally prepared original text;

"I'm against vigilantes unless it is the United States of America," Mr. Bush said at a joint press conference. "I'm for forcing the law my way."
 
272Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 23:11
PV

Would you mind taking that thread drift to another thread? Thanks. 8]
 
273Myboyjack
ID: 121159118
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 23:16
i'm sorry, did you miss some of this thread?

of the three things you just attributed to me, one i didn't say, one i quoted from some random source Baldwin provided, and one, i did say.


tree, I was quite aware that PD typed the first quote. I thought it interesting that no sooner would he make such a statement than you would post what you.

You'll have to clue me in on how "the b!tch dies tomorrow. it's easter sunday. it'll give the holy rollers even more opportunities to act silly." or the Statement about Baldwin burning with you in hell (which he doesn't believ in, BTW) is somehow a "quote". I take it that because Michael SChiavo alledgedly called his wife a bitch that you should too? The only thing you forgot to add was a desire that wither Baldwin or Terri Schiavo be anally raped. Or was that a "quote", as well.

Just dumb stuff. If you're backing off of it, good for you - but it's silly to act like you didn't say it or whatever.

so i'm not sure where you get off being so pompous to me.

Oh. I'm sorry. Was I offensive to you?


The problem here is that some are suggesting "right to life" trumps wishes of patient.

No one here has suggested that at all. The issue here has been with the adequacy pf the proof of that expressed wish.


 
274Tree
ID: 212401018
Sat, Mar 26, 2005, 23:47
tree, I was quite aware that PD typed the first quote. I thought it interesting that no sooner would he make such a statement than you would post what you.

yea, because it's impossible for two people to be working on a post at the same time.. ::rolls eyes::

my post had nothing to do with his...

You'll have to clue me in on how "the b!tch dies tomorrow. it's easter sunday. it'll give the holy rollers even more opportunities to act silly."

satire. parody. baldwin has gone nuts with Schiavo's alleged statement. others have made sarcastic comments on it within this thread.

you choose to single me out because i speak my mind, that's all. i can deal with that.

or the Statement about Baldwin burning with you in hell (which he doesn't believ in, BTW) is somehow a "quote".

it's something i said. i didn't deny it. what's your point?

The only thing you forgot to add was a desire that wither Baldwin or Terri Schiavo be anally raped. Or was that a "quote", as well.

don't put your sick fantasies on me.

Just dumb stuff. If you're backing off of it, good for you - but it's silly to act like you didn't say it or whatever.

i never denied saying what i said. i really think you're having a tough time reading tonight. put the Knob Creek down...

The problem here is that some are suggesting "right to life" trumps wishes of patient.

No one here has suggested that at all. The issue here has been with the adequacy pf the proof of that expressed wish.

nah, just the entire movement of people who want to see Terri Schiavo live like a cuke her whole life...
 
275Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 01:43
Another thing that is truly scary is that this euthanasia true believer is a nurse in an emergency room. Like a fox in the chicken coop. Steer clear of Pinellas county.
 
276Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 02:21
In the interests of fairness we should consider the case FOR killing Terri...
So...The Top Ten Reasons Why Terri Schiavo Should Be Starved To Death:

1. The devil will be delighted.

2. Michael Schiavo wants to marry the mother of his two children.

3. The mother of Michael Schiavo's children wants to marry him.

4. Judge Greer's aura of infallibility would disappear if he admitted a huge mistake and reversed himself.

5. The United States Supreme Court refused to take the Schiavo case.

6. George Felos is an agent of "God" demanding the starving of Terri.

7. Others would make better use of the food and water Terri would consume and the bed in which she lies.

8. If Terri receives physical therapy and eventually communicates about her medically confirmed history of physical trauma, Florida's crime and spousal abuse statistics might go up.

9. President Bush won re-election, and the pro-death forces need a human sacrifice to feel better.

10. That stuff in America's Declaration of Independence about an unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as an endowment from the Creator was a political promise to be broken after the American Revolution succeeded, not a restriction on the almighty judiciary in an increasingly secular society.
 
277nerveclinic
ID: 182312022
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 07:04


Tom Delay

 
278Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 07:08
That case dealt with heroic measures. Not the denial of simple food and water.
 
279Tree
ID: 212401018
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 08:09
Another thing that is truly scary is that this euthanasia true believer is a nurse in an emergency room. Like a fox in the chicken coop. Steer clear of Pinellas county.

Baldwin - to compare a personal decision of what to do with his wife (Sanctity of Marriage, let's not forget), to what he has to do on his job his ludicrious.

does he believe in Euthenasia for all? i doubt it. does he believe in following his wife's wishes. absolutely.

i'm sick of you disparaging this poor man. you're casting ill will on someone else because they have different beliefs than you.
 
280Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 08:16
You are ignoring the testimony of her nurses that she is not PVS.

They were willing to lose their jobs to bring us the truth but you do not honor their sacrifice.

This is euthansia pure and simple, he believes in it and George Felos, the lawyer he hired is a founding father of the euthanasia movement and he believes in it too.
 
281sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 08:34
Nurses Baldwin, are not competent to give a diagnosas. No insult intended to them. By and large theyr are skilled at their professions, overworked and udnerappreciated. Those facts however, do not grant them a medical degree for purposes of providing diagnosis. Your insistance on relying upon their statements, is kin to saying, "These lay people over here have testified that the Bible is wholly inaccurate, therefore it must be."
 
282Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 08:38
It was lay people who witnessed Jesus resurection and I believe them.
 
283Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 08:41
These nurses are professionals with a great deal of experience dealing with patients with PVS, minimal consciousness, alzheimers, etc.

Permanent vegetative state means no responsiveness. Period. They are more than qualified to recognize the diference between reflexes and speaking words.
 
284Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 08:46
And while Tree is all worked up about personal attacks...
The only thing you forgot to add was a desire that wither Baldwin or Terri Schiavo be anally raped. Or was that a "quote", as well. - MBJ

don't put your sick fantasies on me. - Tree
As most people around here will remember that is a sadistic fantasy you yourself explicitly expressed in this forum.

With this in mind I would pay money to watch you say "don't put your sick fantasies on me" to MBJ's face.
 
285Pancho Villa
Sustainer
ID: 533817
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 10:21
Do as I say, not as I do
 
286sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 10:42
Guttural sounds, combined with wishful thinking, toss in abit of emotional distress, and people honestly believe they see and hear things which they factually do not.

That you blindly choose to believe those who reinforce your own opinions, you have demonstrated on this forum over and over and over again. I dont dispute that you genuinely believe what they are saying. The dispute, arises over the degree of proof and what constitutes acceptable evidence.

You have literally littered this thread with assaults upon Judge Greer, Felos, M Schiavvo, and you do it all with absolutley no qualms, while being the beneficiary of no firm evidence. While you are entitled to your opinion, I think that you have gone well beyond the stating of said opinion, when you label someone as an abuser or attempted murderer.

Your refusal to admit that the videos provided by T Schiavvos parents are highly edited, seletive in content and culled from most likely hundreds of hours of tape to provide those snippets, and your refusal to acknowledge what that most likely implies, has IMHO robbed you of all credibility on the issue.

Sox is right when he says that if indeed T Schiavvo is coherent, then show us 30 minutes of consecutive time, on tape, where she is responsive to verbal/audio stimuli. The fact that this cannot be done, such tape does not exist (or one would have to assume it would have been made available by her parents), is indicative that T Schiavvos mental state is indeed that of a PVS patient. That is not a medical diagnosis Baldwin, that is simple deductive reasoning.

If one is fighting for cause "A" and has documentary proof of their claim to support cause "A", then one would produce without delay, such documentary evidence. That one chooses instead to produce what are obviously highly edited snippets and compilations from multiple taping sessions, invalidates the very documentary "evidence" being submitted. That bit of logic, eliminates the parents video from consideration.

That no human being I have ever spoken with on the subject (and there have been literally hundreds upon hundreds of such conversations held in my presence), has stated a preference for being kept alive in such a condition, lends a tremendous amount of credence to M Schiavvos claim IMO. That T Schiavvo may have stated otherwise previously, at the age of 19, does not indicate that she still felt the same way, as a married adult. Wills have been changed, minds of been changed, and other than yourself Baldwin...opinions have been swayed. Thus I find myself with insufficient reason to doubt M Schiavvos statement on the matter.

That the majority of physician citings you have made, come from those who admittedly never examined Terri nor her medical records, is indicative to me of persons trying their damndest to catch their "15 minutes of fame". That many of these same physicians are not even Board Certified, puts them into the "quack" category when combined with their apparent attempt to diagnose a condition in a patient whom they have not examined. Since I dont pay credence to quacks, I dont pay credence to their statements.

You have referred to me herein as a "sick bastard". Why? Because I dispute the validity of keeping a human shell alive for continued medical experimentation and financial gain while providing false hope to parents who have already suffered incredibly over the past 15 years? I'm a "sick bastard" because I'd prefer to see them do what they can to put this behind them and move on with their lives? My own parents suffered through the loss of 3 children. I have seen firsthand, the trauma it brings. I know full well, that what I am endorsing be allowed to happen, is unbelievably difficult for them. But I am also of the opinion, that it must be done before they will ever begin to heal. Would you prefer Baldwin, that in another 15 years, these 2 people have gone through every dime they ever had in a vain affort to restore a quality of life to one who is incapable of achieving anything beyond merely existing? What of the life of those who ARE alive? (ie, Terris parents.) What do you surmise, Terri would have wanted for them? By all accounts she was an intelligent and compassionate woman. Given that, I'd have to believe she would want for them to begin the healing process for their own good. If this makes me a "sick bastard", then send me a sweatshirt labelled as such, and I'll gladly and proudly don it.
 
287Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 10:50
When you have trained professionals who are willing to put their job on the line and indeed were fired because they spoke out and said Terri is not only responsive and speaks, then all doubt is out the window. At that point any doctor who refuses to act on that information, any judge who refuses to have that information followed up on is criminally negligent in my opinion.

One of these days you will get that sweatshirt in the mail.
 
288Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 10:54
I am also sure Terri would want her parents to be happy, it's obvious to know what would make them happy, just ask them.

I am also sure she would want to be divorced from Michael. Of this I have no doubt whatsoever. Just ask all her best friends from those days. They have spoken out as well.
 
289Tree
ID: 212401018
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 10:54
You are ignoring the testimony of her nurses that she is not PVS.

what about the testimony of her HUSBAND, who is legally her guardian, oh, and by the way, a NURSE.

As most people around here will remember that is a sadistic fantasy you yourself explicitly expressed in this forum.

i'm not the one who said it in this thread.

With this in mind I would pay money to watch you say "don't put your sick fantasies on me" to MBJ's face.

works for me. if you're insinuating that MBJ would throw a punch at me, i'm presuming you think he's an idiot. i give him more credit than that. any man who throws a punch at someone for words is a fool, and will probably spend times for that. it's a shame you think MBJ an idiot. i don't.

------------------------------

one think i thing that is being overlooked here are posts 277 by Nerve and 285 by PV are the actions of Tom DeLay when his own father was in a similar situation as Terri Schiavo.

if this isn't even more proof above and beyond the already overwhelming proof that this is about politics for DeLay and his soldiers, then i don't know what is.
 
290sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 10:56
fired not for disagreeing Baldwin, but for raising controversy. For disrupting the facility. For making public, erroneous yet personal and private medical condition reports. For leaving their employers open to potential lawsuits, for malpractice, for non-protection of personal information. Fired for valid reasons Baldwin.

Send the sweatshirt (XL) to my Attn: Jim Dirks at Covert Ford in Austin, 78759.
 
291Baldwin
ID: 241292815
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 11:38
If I send it will you post pictures front and back of you wearing it?
 
292sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 12:43
read the last line of post 286. you need pics and not my word that I'll wear it? np, you'll get pics.
 
293katietx
ID: 59219278
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 12:44
Why don't you two just get a ruler and end this ongoing war that is a total yawn?

 
294sarge33rd
ID: 582341722
Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 13:11
cause. i got little else to do atm. lol
 
295Tree
      ID: 212401018
      Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 21:43
well, at least even those who don't respect a woman's wishes are finally having a sense of humour about things...

Outside the hospice where Schiavo is being cared for, protesters were not as calm. Five were arrested, and about a half-dozen people in wheelchairs got out of them and lay in the driveway, shouting "We're not dead yet!"

just in time for the Broadway premiere of Spamalot too.
 
296biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 23:32
Go Fighting Illini!
 
297Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 23:39
Tree

That actually was pretty funny, you sick bastard. 8]

But not really. What we are talking about is a euthanasia movement that is just going to work it's way thru the disabled one category at a time, finding them unpersons with a duty to die. Not much funny about that.
 
298Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sun, Mar 27, 2005, 23:46
While we are trying to find humor in the most unlikely place, I ran across this...
"If I am ever in Terri's position, please do not engage in a prolonged Jesuitical debate over the existence of the soul, the constitution of the noumenal world, the physical locus of the ka, the likely mechanisms of transmigration, the nature of consciousness divorced from the id, the validity of the tulpa or the proper translation of the Sepher Yetzirah or the Popul Vuh.
JUST GIVE ME THE HAMMER, OK?" -Mr. Mxyzptlk
Funny as hell but off topic a bit. I don't feel like giving that site a free plug...is it wrong?
 
299Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 00:47
Blockbuster!

The ring-wraith identified.

When a top ranking agent of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) opened a criminal investigation in the case of Terri Schindler-Schiavo, he was called into his supervisor’s office and told to shut down the investigation not once, but twice.

The Empire Journal has learned from reliable, knowledgeable sources who spoke on condition of anonymity that this FDLE agent and another agent have given notice that if they are served with subpoenas ordering them to give the information known to them regarding alleged corruption and collusion in the case that they will tell a court about the order stifling their investigation and the alleged involvement of the alleged obstruction of justice by Bernie McCabe, state attorney for Pinellas and Pasco County.

Informed sources say that the agent, said to be personally known to Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, has given a statement in the case to attorneys for the Schindler family but that reportedly the document has not been presented to the court.

Such information could be enough for a court-ordered injunction to immediately reinsert the feeding tube of Terri Schiavo in that a high ranking police officer has determined there is sufficient probable cause that crimes have been committed in the Schiavo case. Such new evidence could be sufficient to order a new trial in the case.

It could also give reasonable cause for Gov. Bush to immediately take Terri Schiavo into protective custody and save her life.

The Agents will come forward with a subpoena but thus far, their request has not been honored.

Attempts by The Empire Journal to discuss the matter with the Governor’s office was unsuccessful. A Freedom of Information Law request to the Clearwater office of FDLE for copies of the complaint and the files in the case have not been acknowledged. Under public information laws, case files which have been closed and are not the subject of active investigation are accessible for public and press review.

According to The Empire Journal’s knowledgeable sources, the FDLE agent determined that there was probable cause to initiate an investigation in the area of fraud after he had conducted a preliminary investigation. He said that while the initial investigation would not have been enough to obtain an indictment of anyone at that stage, that in the past, the FDLE has opened a full-fledged criminal investigation with far less information than he had developed in the Schiavo case.

Upon opening an investigatory file, he was reportedly called into his supervisor’s office and told to shut down the investigation, not once but twice. He says that never in his many years of law enforcement had he ever been ordered to shut down an investigation and the file was closed and turned in.

According to the agent, it appeared McCabe allegedly ordered that all criminal investigations in regard to the Schiavo matter, including those of the FDLE, be shut down.

The agents allegedly maintain that if they are served with a subpoena to produce their information in court, they are willing and prepared to do so. They fully expected to be called but have not been.
I just hope this investigator isn't ransacked and Arkancided.
 
300Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 00:59
Also this internet letter...
For Wide Distribution,
With this cover note, please distribute to the world. Understand,
there is little here, and THAT is the crime. It's NOT about Michael
Schiavo. This is about the DIRECT INVOLVEMENT of Pinellas Pasco State
Attorney Bernie McCabe in making certain NO INVESTIGATIONS would
occur; this is about his using his official office and influence to
block the Schindler Family and ultimately their daughter Terri from
accessing the police services of the Pinellas County Sheriff's office,
St. Petersburg City Police, Pinellas Park Police, the Florida
Department of Law Enforcement, Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist
(whose home county and political associations are in Pinellas County
Florida) -- AND -- that is important to understand given the COMMON
KNOWLEDGE that McCabe has a long political association with George W.
Greer who, some allege, is an office he is not legally qualified to
hold; I don't know if that is true. This is a very complex web of
personal, professional, political associations -- Greer, McCabe, Rice,
Michael Schiavo shown favor of a job (nothing wrong with that) in the
Sheriffs jail by Rice, hospice officials and board members and George
Felos with influence over that organization being chairman of the
board up to the moment Terri was warehoused in a darkened room with
not even the joy of a toothbrush -- among others. A person directly
involved in this just said to me, "McCabe has a HAMMER on this." And,
a lawyer in California with lawyers on the ground in Florida said this
morning, "...ANY LAWYER WHO APPROACHES ANY COURT WITH ANY ISSUE IS
GOING TO BE HIT WITH HEAVY SANCTIONS." The judiciary wants this
murder really bad. BUT -- AT THIS PRECISE MOMENT, focus attention on
Greer-McCabe. There are serious people interested in developing a
case for capital murder if Terri dies. This family, THIS WOMAN has
been denied due process, PERIOD. It is a BLOT on America's CRIMINAL
and CIVIL injustice system, a system not of law, but men who so
despise law that they would murder this helpless aware of self
disabled woman.
Oh. It should be noted, there is just a bit more to go with this
FDLE report, but is not ready yet for distribution. It is one
critical evidence element links McCabe to the FDLE shutting down the
case file attached.
John Sipos
St. Petersburg Florida
727 563-9245

----------
From: "David C. Gibbs III"
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:32:21 -0500
To:
Subject: Fw: FDLE Report Attachment
 
301Tree
      ID: 212401018
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 06:46
What we are talking about is a euthanasia movement

Baldwin - really, this isn't about a euthanasia movement.

ask any of the people on this message board who who support Terri Schiavo's right to choose (and let's be honest here - it's just another attempt from the Right to prevent a woman from making choices about her own body), and i'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with being pro-youth in asia, and everything to do with being pro-making her own choice.
 
302sarge33rd
      ID: 34251187
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 09:51
anonymous sources, investigators only willing to come forward with knowledge of a crime...if subpoena'd. Reeks of innuendo to me Baldwin. Any criminal investigator I have ever know and/or worked with, would come forward w/o requiring a subpoena if they had knowledge of a crime. That these men wont, speaks volumes against the claim to my ears.
 
303Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 11:02
Tree

I sure hope you are correct. It certainly isn't the case for the principles in this case pushing for Terri's death.

Sarge

I don't find this amazing given the intimidating clout behind the killing of this girl.
 
304biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 14:40
So, Baldwin (and any others in the feed-Terri crowd), do you think that the Bush Brothers have dropped the ball?
 
305Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 15:52
Dropped the ball? Why no, you have to look at it from the eyes of their true constituency. That would be their occultist brothers in the "Skull and Bones". Why they very nearly delivered a sacrificial death exactly on easter sunday.
 
306Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 16:46
 
307Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 16:49
"is the B dead yet"? Judge Greer
 
308biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 17:00
I thought Kleiman's perspective on the approval numbers for Bush dropping below the political Mendoza line, particularly due to losing the support conservative, religious males, was interesting.

Instead of the prevailing wisdom that this was due to a backlash against perverting the process for short-term effect, he instead posits that it is the "feed-Terri" crowd that feels Bush has not done enough for her cause, Constitution be damned. They thought they had this dude in their pockets, but are starting to realize he was just playing them for votes.

You apparently agree, Baldwin.
 
309Tree
      ID: 212401018
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 17:08
It certainly isn't the case for the principles in this case pushing for Terri's death.

no one is pushing for her death. many people are pushing for her rights, and the rights of her husband...

This article, however, indicates to me that her parents have really lost touch with reality, and did so quite some time ago.

PINELLAS PARK, United States (AFP) - The father of Terri Schiavo made a desperate, 11th hour appeal for authorities to reconnect a feeding tube to his severely brain-damaged daughter, and said he feared doctors might try to hasten her death.

"I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine,"
Bob Schindler told the press Monday outside the hospice where his 41-year old daughter is a patient.


no one is trying OD his daughter.

additionally, i found this to be interesting as well:

Florida Governor Jeb Bush, the president's brother, said Monday he had exhausted his options in his efforts to save Schiavo.

"It just breaks my heart that we have not erred on the side of life," he said Monday...


isn't Bush a Death Penalty proponent?
 
310Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 17:14
Bili

Conservatives who are paying attention understand they are getting taken for granted just like the democrats take the black vote for granted and ignore their interests.

What are conservatives gonna do? Vote for whoever Dean suggests and join the ACLU?

This won't be the wedge you are praying for.
 
311Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:08
Terri is going into her 11th day...I had hoped and prayed it would take less time...stupid knowing that a person can go about 30+ days without food... yet water is essential...If you really wouldn't mind for the sake of your loved one's ...living like this there is no issue for you to argue...live like that...but for me for the sake of my children, my husband and their future, I would choose to die...The issue's are not justified by the science we have created and accumalated...When we play with mother nature things are sure to go wrong...life is precious but so is death...The natural course of this issue was taken away by man...and so it has to be given back by man...Who here doesn't know if you play with fire you are likely to get burned...Terri very likely did not choose to be a guinea pig...At least in death there is rebirth...but us human's don't have the power to bring her back to life.
 
312Toral
      ID: 5529286
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:12
Jay Nordlinger, who as a music critic as to live among New York liberals:

Liberalism is a death cult, (or "cult of death", as you prefer.)

Toral
 
313Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:14
The Bible sat's you can't live by bread alone...even if you don't believe in God...that still seems to hold true...Think of all the thing's you wouldn't want to live without...I bet love come's first, and food comes way down the line...
 
314Tree
      ID: 212401018
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:14
i love that phrase New York Liberal. loosely translated, when someone refers to another as a New York Liberal, it generally means "smarter than me"

i.e. "I know some people who are New York Liberals", translated, means "I know some people who are smarter than me."
 
315Toral
      ID: 5529286
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:16
In your case, Tree, I don't think anyone would use the phrase that way.

Toral
 
316Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:17
I'm pretty stupid but I know some who are even more so...
 
317Toral
      ID: 5529286
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:23
Before I haunted these boards, I was thought that the conservative stereotype about New York Liberals -- their arrogance, their complete disconnection from ordinary people, their, well...badness...was probably exagerrated. Just a matter of culture-war stereotypes.

Since I've been on these boards and dealt with real genuine New York liberals, I've had to reconsider. Reading Nordlinger's stories about actually dealing with real Manhattan cultural elite liberals has enlightened me as well.

New York Liberals aren't just arrogant, don't just vastly overrate their intelligence.

They are actually -- evil. There is a culture of, or atmosphere of, evil that seems to affect all New York liberals. I don't know anything like that in North America (which is the only place I know well.)

Toral

 
318sarge33rd
      ID: 322471717
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:34
so now the preservation of individual liberties, is seen as "evil"? I'm fairly certain at thispoint then who the "evil" ones are. A few no doubt live in NYC, but their leadership currently resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Wash DC.
 
319Toral
      ID: 5529286
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:36
Did you read the Nordlinger article I linked to, sarge? I would be interested to hear your response to it.

Toral
 
320Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:38
I always wanted a penthouse in New York...guess I haven't been bad or evil enough...don't know how to be...Do you think it's live and let learn and that if I lived there I would learn soon enough?...how stupid that seem's when most here sat they are who they are...good...and they say don't judge me!!!...But they judge me, Judy
 
321biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:49
At some point if a woman has said "kill me if I'm brain dead" and the experts say "she's brain dead" then you probably need to respect her wishes, even if 15 years of agonizing and unwanted living has already passed.

As for the starvation thing, I find that horrific as well.

We should probably do what her parents, bizarrely, fear the most, which is give her too much morphine. If we are to respect her wishes, why do it in a torturous way?
 
322sarge33rd
      ID: 322471717
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 18:57
tried to read some of it Toral, but its far too filled with innuendo, half-truths and bile to bother with.
We do not "feel the need to starve her" to death. We do feel the need to respect what is to the best of our jknowledge, her stated wish to not live this way. We do feel the need to preserve the rights of the individual, through their spouse, to determine whatif any heroic measures are to be taken, medically speaking. We do feel the need, to preserve our judicial system, which having run its course in this case, needs now be followed.

T Schiavvo is not alive in the conventional sense. That her body is a living organism is not under dispute. That Terri Schiavvo still occupies that body, seems to be.

Neither view of this issue is an overly pleasant one. Neither "side" is going to convince the other. Each is going to continue to deride the other. But facts are facts. The fact is, like it or not, our judiciary has made its decision. Thats it, case closed.
 
323Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:00
We can as a whole society decide that 1000's if not million's deserve to go prison,then to get 3 meals a day...and not give water to one deserving woman who did no harm...I pray that one drop of wine can sustain her...I have great hopes...
 
324Toral
      ID: 5529286
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:05
Bob Novak, in a column, noted thus:
On Monday night, Ralph Nader was substituting as left wing host on CNN's ''Crossfire'' and seemed uncomfortable grilling Republican Rep. David Dreier of California. After the show, the old reformer noted to me that it was illegal to starve a dog to death but it was being done to Terri Schiavo. This is an issue truly transcending normal political boundaries.

The whole column is worth reading.

Toral
 
325Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:07
Who care's that evil exist's in New york??? It's prevalent everywhere...I lived in a hole until just over a year ago...thought that good could outdo bad...there is a tie right now...I had thought that I could outrun the bad...but...bad is good at what it does...it has to be to exist, and it does exist, to my dismay.
 
326Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:31
We should probably do what her parents, bizarrely, fear the most, which is give her too much morphine. If we are to respect her wishes, why do it in a torturous way? - Bili

In Terri's own words, "Where there is life, there is hope". Besides the obvious fact that she isn't braindead and didn't tell Michael she wanted to be starved to death.
 
327biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:33
Oh. Sorry, Baldwin. I had forgotten you were both a neurologist, a mind reader and had a time machine.

I'll defer to your wonderous powers from now on.
 
328Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:36
I read what is here alot...There is no such thing as right or wrong...but there is good and evil...I don't want to learn any more then I know...but I want to learn what you know...There are so many post here...oppisites that all make sense...sound crazy?
 
329Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:38
#327...refer me to those same powers...Please
 
330Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:50
This is all men...they rule the world...strenght in #'s...but a calm comes from the women they know...What do us women have left to teach you?...only that the best trip you could ever take...would be to fall on your knees...and beg for forgiveness...why are men so incomplete...never happy...never satisfied...left wanting more then they deserve?Left wanting more then the world has to give them...are they so sefish...that enough is never enough?
 
331Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:52
It's about time. 8]
 
332soxzeitgeist
      ID: 32532818
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:53
"All hail the great and powerful Oz...err...baldwin!

A couple more observations on the whole thing...

One thing that I've noticed is the the language used to refer to the body of "Mrs Schiavo". It's never "Mrs. Schiavo". It's always "Terri". It's never "the Schindlers daughter".

It really is disgusting how the religious right is using the Schiavo case. Some evangelical leaders have made a bit of noise to do more about the genocide in the Sudan, but their followers aren't out in force protesting or raising money to help anyone there.

The tort reform measures that W wants to pass could quite possibly have prevented the malpractice suit that's provided for Terris care from ever coming to court. Additionally, a good chunk of the money for Schaivos care that didn't come from the malpractice suit is provided by Medicaid - a program that will be gutted if the administration has their way.

I'm pretty suer the GOP spent the last election defending the "sanctity of marriage". Now it's antathema for the righties to accept the principle of deferring to the spouse in this case.

The new bankruptcy laws proposed by the GOP will make it close to impossible for families who suffer a catastrophic illness to declare chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start when the medical bills become overwhelming.

I feel bad for Mrs. Schiavos parents.
 
333Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:55
If Terri were a man...and men stick together!...There would not be a fight...one for all ...all for one...leave no one behind.
 
334biliruben
      ID: 500432513
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 19:57
"Oh-oh here she comes. Watch out boys, she'll chew you up..."
 
335Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:00
#332...the body is a temple...built by the grace of God...Have you ever heard God say he is perfect?...I haven't...We are his image...his word's...God has never professed to be perfect.
 
336Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:03
#334...are you making fun of me...sometime's thing's are over my head...I am ok with that.
 
337Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:04
Since even the most pro-death liberal has no idea if Terri really said she wanted to die...their eagerness for her to die, their downright evil bloodthirst to see her die will long and rightfully tarnish their image.
 
338sarge33rd
      ID: 582341722
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:05
I fo rone, am getting quite sic of the one side in this issue, painting the side I happen to agree with, as being "out to kill T Schiavvo". Trust me, nothing would give me greater joy at the moment, than to see a miracle cure which restores Terri's cerebral cortex, brings the personna of T Schiavvo back into being, and allows everyone to go on with their lives as if this entire affair never occured. That is not going to happen however. As amazingly potent as the human machine is when it comes to healing, nerve endings do not regenerate. Brain cells, do not magically resolidify from a liquid state.

(The one side, is not arguing ...kill,kill,kill. We are arguing, that the peron known as Terri Schiavvo, is and has been "dead" for a very long time. The body which housed her, is still a living organism. But thats all it is. It is no longer anymore Terri Schiavvo, than is that toenail clipping Baldwin tossed, Baldwin. Why you are unable to recognize and at least acknowledge what we are saying, is indicative of the general problem we face in trying to communicate with you at all. You see your side, you see the way your side has chosen to paint "us", and thats as far as it goes. Its as if all cognitive reasoning has been left by you, to be done by some mouthpiece with a political agenda. I'll tell you what I used to tell my kids.....Shut your mouth and open your eyes. SEE what we are writing. HEAR what we are saying. THINK for yourself and take back the power you have granted those in Washington DC.

Delay says "err on the side of life"?!?!? As in with his father? I would not deny the Delay family the right to have followed their Dads wishes. Nor would I deny M Schiavvo, the right to follow Terris. As far as we KNOW, thats what he is trying to do. It may not be what you BELIEVE, but can you ackcnowledge that you do NOT KNOW differently? You cant. Unless you spent each and every one of Terri's waking moments since her marriage to Michael alongside her, you cannot possibly know differently.

I'm done with this thread. In response to my 286, Baldwin challenges me to post pics while wearing his sweatshirt. Are you truly so blinded that you cannot see what I am trying to convey with that post? Has your head really hardened to that point? Is your mind THAT closed to all possibilities that you may not be right every time, on every subject, in every case?
 
339Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:07
Its as if all cognitive reasoning has been left by you - Sarge

Well that's a chilling statement coming from you.
 
340Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:10
Sarge...good has to prevail...so if time goes by...I hope you still have time or a moment to be here....
 
341Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:14
Plz... hope has never failed...Sarge you and Katie give this site...a breath of things that bring a balance...Keep posting...please...
 
342Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:21
I'll give up if you do...you make alot... lot of sense...no_one or hardly anyone discount's you....you make alot of sence...
 
343Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:22
Just slap everyone in the face with your over eagerness to declare people brain-dead. I don't even need to compose posts. One of these days I'm just going to answer your posts by cut-n-pasting your own posts, bolded appropriately.
 
344Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:24
Katie....she is the blessing...you prayed for her didn't you?....enjoy your blessing's...
 
345sarge33rd
      ID: 582341722
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:25
I dont pray Judy. I'm an athiest.
 
346Tree
      ID: 212401018
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:35
Toral - They are actually -- evil. There is a culture of, or atmosphere of, evil that seems to affect all New York liberals. I don't know anything like that in North America (which is the only place I know well.)

once again, when people are afraid of something, they make fun of it, because they're scared.

this is how the leadership of the Right has won this country, thus far - by playing to the ignorance of their constinuency, with silly phrases like "massachusetts liberal," "liberal elite," and even just plain ol' "liberal".

i have no doubt that those on the left are smarter than those on the right - we're just not as good as manipulating people with fear.

Baldwin - Since even the most pro-death liberal has no idea if Terri really said she wanted to die...their eagerness for her to die, their downright evil bloodthirst to see her die will long and rightfully tarnish their image.

i'll challenge you. right now.

1. show me any liberal who's pro-death. don't post to some obscure conspiracy link, don't throw out some B.S. religious diatribe, and don't insinuate. prove it.

2. show me any liberal who's eager to see Terri Schiavo die. personally, i'd much rather her live forever, in bliss with her husband. sanctity of marriage baldwin, or does that not apply to heterosexual couples?
 
347Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:35
Sarge...I don't believe you are...there could not be such goodness as withoutyou...so many lesson's are lost...or are so many lesson's taught...by you? In all goodness...there is a lesson we have something to lose...without you...please stay? teach me PLEASE!!!!
 
348Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:37
I can't stand this anymore...I don't fit here...
 
349sarge33rd
      ID: 582341722
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:39
there is nothing I can teach Judy. I dont have the answers and I dont know who does. Not entirely certain I'd even want all the answers were it possible to get them. Somethings, I'd prefer to not know. Just as some things I've done, I'd prefer to have not done them. But, thats an entirely different thread/topic/discussion.
 
350Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:40
Sarge...I am desparate...I need to know what lesson's you know...please...I am so tired..
 
351Toral
      ID: 5529286
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:46
346 Treei have no doubt that those on the left are smarter than those on the right

Now, what made me think that the New York Liberals on this board are arrogant? Geez, I don't know...it's so hard to find evidence....

Toral
 
352sarge33rd
      ID: 582341722
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:50
What I know Judy, is what we all know. That we each have individual life experiences and we each interpret those experiences differently. Oddly enough, that very fact is at the crux of the left-right debate in this nation right now. I, like many others on "the left", recognize and respect deeply, those individual differences and do not want to see that individuality eliminated. In our eyes, "the right", wants to turn this into a nation of sheep. Lock-step marching along to the tune of the evangelical fundamentalists. Blindly following behind the one in front of us. Nary an independent thought in our minds.
 
353Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:52
How about your lovely post #214, Tree?
 
354Judy
      ID: 36235269
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 20:58
Thanks Sarge!!!!Katie, never meant to failyou!!!!!butI did...Judy....I am not worth, mush...Katie...don't hate me because I want what you have...I want what you have...
 
355sarge33rd
      ID: 582341722
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 21:22
Judy, katie never has failed me.
 
356Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 21:52
The tort reform measures that W wants to pass could quite possibly have prevented the malpractice suit that's provided for Terris care from ever coming to court.

What are you talking about? Did the Schiavo's get a huge punitive damages award in addition to the large compensatory award they got? The tort reform measures, i've seen cap punitive awards, not money required for long term care. What Tort Reform measure would prevent cases "from coming to Court"? I'm not aware of those.

I'm pretty suer the GOP spent the last election defending the "sanctity of marriage". Now it's antathema for the righties to accept the principle of deferring to the spouse in this case.

I keep seeing this goofy, goofy "point" from the Left I didn't notice the GOP campaign to allow aldulterous men to have complete control over their wive's lives. Since when is the Left interested in "deferring to the spouse". The Schindlers and many of the Schindlers' supporters believe the Micael Sciavo was abusive towards his wife. You surely don't think that it's inconsistent to believe in the "sanctity of marriage" but believe that physicl abuse and adultery are grounds to dissolive that sacrament, do you?

This isn't complicated, but it does require the ability to apply several general rules (not just one) to a given situation. I thought Liberals were good at that, them being so wise and all.


The new bankruptcy laws proposed by the GOP will make it close to impossible for families who suffer a catastrophic illness to declare chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start when the medical bills become overwhelming.

And, were that true, that would apply to the case of Terri Schiavo how exactly - or was that just a random "things I hate" post?

It really is disgusting how the religious right is using the Schiavo case. Some evangelical leaders have made a bit of noise to do more about the genocide in the Sudan, but their followers aren't out in force protesting or raising money to help anyone there.

You know I agree, in a way, with the general sentiment. With the time and resources put into this case by the fanatics, a lot of lives could hav been saved. Hell, the money people have put into their "protest signs" could have fed a Sudanese refugee camp for weeks. Of course, when people questioned why Lefties spent so much time on every abuse by a US soldier in Iraq, but never worried about the far more dramatic and systematic abuuses of the various evil governments around the world, the Liberals always said that they were most concerned with the problems of their own country. That made sense to you then, Sox. Does it now?

 
357Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 22:16
I've spent plenty of effort on the Sudan situation, not that I imagine I can save them. I think preventing the rise of the fourth reich is equally important and a lot closer to home.
 
358nerveclinic
      ID: 182312022
      Mon, Mar 28, 2005, 22:59
Baldwin

Michael Schievo has called for a post mortem autopsy to investigate if Terri was ever abused.

Will you issue an apology if he is vindicated or will that not fit your agenda?
 
359Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 02:53
Yeah, I've given that some thot, Nerve. The problem is that the autopsy will be performed by the Pinellas county medical examiner from that little knot of corruption controlled by the Sheriff's office that sneeringly stood up to rescue attempts and blocked all appeals to investigate Michael for attempted murder in the first place. Michael knows the fix is in at the sheriff's office.

I am going to rely on the bonescan done soon after the wife abuse and not a questionable autopsy done 19 years after the fact. Doctors who have seen the bonescan including the one who read it in the first place have said she was the victim of trauma. They have said "she was mauled". Am I going to believe Sheriff "rescue attempts and murder investigations can all go to hell" when he tells me their is nothing to see there?
 
360Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 03:07
Besides which, this is not a brave move by Michael. His hand was forced. Florida law states that if you chose the cremation autopsy you have no choice but must have an autopsy performed. So the way Felos is spinning it is ridiculous.
 
361nerveclinic
      ID: 182312022
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 04:02
Baldwin.

I learned one lesson the last two weeks from you.

As if I didn't already know it.

The religious right is emotionally irrational on this topic.

If the "evidence" points at all in your direction you pounce on it (He must have abused her, she's not really brain dead, one doctor says so) and call all other evidence suspect (A court already looked at the abuse charge and found no credible evidence, 10 times the number of doctors have declared her brain dead.)

In reality, whether you know it or not, you are grasping at whatever you can to justify not allowing a human who’s already dead to go in dignity. Of course that concept is a “sin” to you so you can’t allow it.

I am getting a living will made shortly after I land in SF. Among other points it will instruct my family to move me to Oregon and make me a legal resident there should I become incapacitated.

It is the religious right who is starving to death Terri because they will not allow humane forms of Euthanasia. It’s disgusting really. We put our pets to sleep because it's the humane thing to do, but insist a human starve to death.

I told you I have an open mind on this case. When I started to dig I realized the religious right is demonizing Michael because he represents the opposition to their beliefs, the right to die.

The primary "doctor" who claimed Terri wasn't brain dead is a right wing christian, who opposes all euthenasia, which in my mind hurts his credibilty.

Randel Terry the "rightous" spokeman for the parents divorced his wife of 19 years, 7 months later married his 22 year old assitant and was promptly thrown out of his church. Nice.

I read your links, and the more I read the more I realized they all come from a live at all costs, right wing christian agenda with a take no prisoners point of view as long as it furthered their agenda.

The view points lack credibilty because they start with an agenda, and twist the facts to fit that agenda.

I will instruct my family, that if I am in a similar situation to Terri's, not to starve me to death, but have a doctor in Oregon end it mercifully.

I thank you because your irrational behavior has helped me understand how vital it is I take care of this so my family never has to be put through this agony and how important it is to get to a state that is free from theocracy.

I’ll send you a copy when I get it done.


 
363Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 04:29
That will put you among the few people not at risk of being deliberately starved and dehydrated to death against their wishes. I only wish you had enuff compassion and foresight to extend that security to every american.

You are simply wrong entirely in assuming this has anything at all to do with religion besides as the basis of Jefferson's concept of the source of inalienable rights.

Attorney of death Geoffry Feiger, a tireless defender of Kevorkian has made the same point as you. That Kevorkian just could not get past the resistance to poisoning the disabled and depressed so they hit on the strategy of starving and dehydrating.

That is just disgusting. If I object to a hostage taker shooting his victim and he says "ok, I'll just skin her to death instead", I'm not responsible for either form of death. It is all on the perp.
 
364Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 04:34
I have disassociated myself from Randall Terry long before this case and I think he was a net negative. He probably made some of the most cogent well worded speeches in her behalf. He also made the 'Let a wave of hatred speech' which I find mindboggling and counter-productive in the extreme.
 
365Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 04:36
I also think that insisting the only professional testimony that counts is that of euthanasia supporters is irrational and dangerous.
 
366Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 04:45
I earlier posted something that revealed Pinellas county attorney Bernie McCabe was corrupt and had the hammer on this case quashing any attempt to save this woman.

Let me show you just how corrupt the Pinellas county sheriff's department and attorney general's office really is.

Here is quite a case.

The attorney general turned his head as one guy used insider information to purchase land for a million dollars and sell it back to Pinellas county for two million dollars the next day. And the guy got away with it. No prosecution.

The institution that was built there has been guilty of ongoing abuse of wards including the disappearances of witnesses and mindbogglingly corrupt oversight.

You can get away with murder in Pinellas county.
 
367Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 04:51
Then there is this...
According to a well-informed source, there are many instances of corruption and cover-up taking place on different levels in the case surrounding Terri Schiavo. One very explosive charge is that the State Attorney’s Office had at one point given a directive to the local police department to not take any complaints or do any investigations about Terri Schiavo, Michael Schiavo, George Felos, Debra Bushnell, Judge Greer, or Hospice of the Florida Suncoast, Inc.

Florida State Attorney Pinellas and Pasco Counties, Bernie McCabe was contacted yesterday afternoon in order to give his office an opportunity to respond to these allegations. McCabe initially responded to the allegations calling them “internet lies.” Once he was informed that the information was not simply read on the Internet but was received per an actual conversation with the source, he denied the allegations again quoting, “That did not happen. No such directive was given.”

Commentary:

PERSONAL note on the above story.

I am about to reveal an incident that occurred yesterday. I have no evidence or proof that this incident is in ANY way related to the above story, but in the interest of using public knowledge and notification as my best defense, I am disclosing the details of this incident here and now, publicly.

Approximately two hours after my conversation with Bernie McCabe, I received a phone call from a man that was intended to intimidate me by subtle, yet obvious means. A veiled threat was made to the well-being of not only myself, but also my children. I am in possession of voluminous documentation that could be very damaging to many people involved with the Terri Schiavo case.

I did not record the phone call I received, so I am giving my BEST recollection of the conversation. It is clear that the caller intended to intimidate me and issue a veiled threat.

I answered the phone with “Hello.”

He said “Is Sherri Reese there?”

Automatically I thought it was a sales call. I said “This is she.”

His voice changed, it went up in octave and now sounded eerily friendly. “So what part of Mississippi are you from?”

I said, “Who is this?”

He replied, “I think I know you from Mississippi.”

“Then what is your name?”

“Don’t you have a son named Kevin? He’s what? Fifteen, going to be 16 soon?”

“Yes.” He then proceeded to give the names and ages of my two young daughters. Now my voice got strong and stern. “WHO are you and WHAT do you want?”

“Like I said Sherri, I think I know you. I remember reading about you somewhere Sherri and I thought, ‘Hmmm, Sherri Reese…I think I know her.”

“Then what is your name?”

“Lawrence.”

“I don’t think you know me Lawrence.”

“Sherri, I am very good at remembering things, in fact I remember reading that you said what a BLESSING your son was. He is a BLESSING, you know. It’s good you know what a BLESSING he is, Sherri. You know, I have friend. She has a daughter who is 16, ya know, real close in age to your son Kevin. Her daughter just got off the bus one day and collapsed. So how is Kevin, Sherri? And Alex? And Jessica? How are YOU, Sherri?”

“What do you want Lawrence?”

“Oh, I just want to talk to you. I want to share a story with you about what GOD did for me in my life.” He then told me of a physical altercation he had with a man that ultimately he ended up serving 13 months for in the County Jail for assault.

At this point I got off the phone. I have filed an incident report with the local police, case # 0502180. I talked with the Police Chief and a detective this morning and was assured they were going to investigate. They absolutely take this incident seriously.

Again, I share this for the purpose of using public awareness and notification as a defense as advised to me. (In case the two incidents MAY be connected.) I have NO PROOF or EVIDENCE that they are at all related, but I am taking precautions.

 
368nerveclinic
      ID: 182312022
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 05:08
You are simply wrong entirely in assuming this has anything at all to do with religion besides as the basis of Jefferson's concept of the source of inalienable rights.

OK again, with an open mind, because I have that. Show me one "doctor" or "expert" who shares your views on this subject who does not come from a religious perspective.

A person who agrees with you on purely scientific grounds who doesn't have an agenda. I haven't been able to find it and I AM looking.
 
369nerveclinic
      ID: 182312022
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 05:30
Baldwin 367.

As I said earlier. Take no prisoners.

This paranoid fantasy makes no sense.

You've already shown me that you will twist facts to fit your agenda in other threads. I think I've documented that. We can go back over it if you like.

All these people are out to get Terri to help Michael?

The judge,
the local police,
the judge who looked at the judges decision,
the man on the phone,
the doctors who say she in a vegitative state?
The judge who looked at the judges decision who looked at the judges decision?

The autopsy will be fake?

I'm as paranoid as the next guy, but at least I can see what is going on here.

right against left
christian against secular
divide and conquer
Easter weekend to sweeten the pot and feed the persecution.

one brain dead woman is allowed to rest in peace but you have no problem with leveling Fallujah?

but then those weren't women and children, they were Iraqis?

I'm having a hard time understanding your christian ethics.

I understand you think Terri should live...that's your belief, but I also think your twisting the facts in one direction to demonize anyone who disagrees.

A lot of us believe if we were in Terri's shoes we'd like to rest in peace.

Peace
 
370Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 05:32
There are 50 doctors lined up to testify in Terri's behalf. I only know the backgrounds of two of them.

I just don't understand why all doctors aren't pro-life given their Hippocratic oath and therefore wouldn't all doctors have invalid opinions by your standards? All doctors who hadn't joined the Hemlock society that is?
 
371Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 05:37
Ran across this doctor's comments...
Finally, on March 8, Judge Greer denied the parents petition to feed Terri by mouth claiming it is an ‘experimental procedure.’ So despite the fact that the most recent swallowing study is now 13 years ago, several medical professionals of various training have testified that she may be able to swallow and that a study and therapy should be performed, the judge has ruled that Terri should be starved to death without even trying a ‘natural’ means of feeding. As a physician, I shudder at the implications of this path.
Weeeell we wouldn't want to try any experimental therapy. Like feeding her. It might kill her. We had best euthanize her instead. Thanks judge greer.

 
372Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 05:48
From the absolutely best source on Pinellas County corruption in this case...
Are Pinellas County taxpayers paying employees of Florida’s Sixth Judicial Circuit to read The Empire Journal’s ongoing coverage of the Terri Schindler-Schiavo case?

Was an employee of the Pinellas County Courthouse in Clearwater---perhaps Probate Judge George W. Greer himself, responsible for the internet hacking incident on March 11 that shut down the website of The Empire Journal for nearly 24 hours, directly aimed the coverage of the Schiavo case?

With the exposure of alleged Medicare fraud, alleged election law violations and alleged judicial misconduct, The Empire Journal has helped bring the Schiavo case to national attention, prompting several investigations of various public officials in the case and spotlighting alleged wrongdoings and collusion by others.

According to statistical information recorded by the newspaper, employees of the Pinellas County Courthouse in Clearwater are among the most frequent visitors to the news site, albeit all times of the day and night. In fact, on Monday, as the world waited for U.S. District Court Judge James Whittemore to decide whether Terri Schiavo would live or die, individuals using the IP registered to the Sixth Judicial Circuit was virtually locked into The Empire Journal’s website.

President Bush signed the bill passed by Congress into law at 1:11 a.m. Monday and at 1:45 a.m., the IP registered to Pinellas County Government entered and scanned the site, reading articles relating to the Schiavo case. Between 1:45 a.m. and 1:30 p.m., a 12 hour period computers registered to the Sixth Judicial Circuit had visited the newspaper site an overwhelming 46 times.

On Sunday, March 13, virtually as soon as ‘Schiavogate: The Big Cover-Up” was published, a story revealing the alleged guardianship law violations by Greer and Michael Schiavo in the Schiavo case, a hacker removed the article from the site. Security measures were tightened and the article republished. Statistics indicated that computers from the Pinellas County courthouse had been visiting the site prior to the attack. Several days prior, a threatening message had been placed on the website by an intruder.

On Tuesday, March 15 with the publication of several new articles relating to the Schiavo case, including an article regarding the hiring of Michael Schiavo as a nurse at the Pinellas County jail by former Pinellas County Sheriff Everett Rice, the hacker removed several Schiavo articles from the website including the Schiavogate article again. Rice is a long time friend of Greer and was the subject of a motion to remove Greer from the Schiavo case for bias and improper conduct.

A number of links to various past articles in the Schiavo archive where also removed. Later that day, shortly after midnight, the entire site was hacked and removed from the internet, causing a blackout of the news organization.

http://www.theempirejournal.com/0313055_schiavogate_the_big_cove.htm

According to the statistical information just prior to the total hacking of the website, one of the last visits was from a computer at the Pinellas County Courthouse in Clearwater.

The interference in business operations of the newspaper constitutes alleged federal and state violations and has been reported to federal authorities.

It was determined that entry to the site had been gained by the hacker gained breaking through the firewall of the newspaper’s internet service provider. A change in server has occurred with the operation now placed on a dedicated server with top security measures in place.
Sorry to overload your paranoia filter, Nerve.
 
373Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 05:49
Source
 
374Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 06:02
From same site...
There needs to be sweeping legislation enforcing that an insurance award be specifically and only used for what it was granted and that no court can divert the funds, especially when one hires an attorney to seek another’s death.
 
375Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 06:16
Newspaper which employs judge greer's wife files to force access to DCF investigation of greer's abuse which would give them access to the name of whistle-blower.

And Greer finds it 'unsettling' that the DCF plans to include looking into greer's own decisions. I'll bet you do greer.
 
376Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 06:24
Another ring-wraith identified...in place at the state level.

Florida state's attorney coverup in Schiavo case...
Crist has previously denied in a televised report that the DCF ever received any complaints concerning Terri Schiavo, an outright false statement demonstrated by the fact the week before, Greer had waved a file in the courtroom indicating it was a report by the DCF in the Schiavo case which had been sealed.

The Empire Journal has also learned from a reliable source that there is proof that Crist engaged in an attempted coverup of the abuse of Terri Schiavo even last year. The informant, whose name is being withheld by the newspaper due to fear of possible retribution, said he personally handed to Crist last summer a packet of information regarding alleged abuse of Terri.

Thereafter, the material was returned to the informant by Crist’s office in double envelopes. The informant says that someone in the Attorney General’s Tampa office wrote the AG’s return address on the outside envelope. He says that while he opened the outside envelope, he did not open the inner one.

Although Crist has claimed that he received no complaints or information concerning the alleged abuse and neglect of Terri Schiavo, that claim can be proven false as the informant says Crist’s fingerprints can be found on the documents returned to him.
 
377Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 06:37
Greer illegally colluded in anothern guardianship case with Felos lawyer Bushnell. Greer appointed euthanasia lawyer Bushnell ad litem against the wishes of the relatives. The same Bushnell that keeps denying Terri's parents access to their daughter.
 
378Tree
      ID: 212401018
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 06:57
Baldwin - you keep linking to this Empire Journal site, and they're not exactly unbiased - in fact, they're no doubt as to their extreme bias, which has to very heavily be taken into consideration when weighing what they have to say.

from the link i've provided in this post:
Dear TEJ Readers,

Thank you for all your calls giving us praise. While [sic] certainly appreciate your generous accolades, the main focus is and has always been to help Terri Schindler-Schiavo.
 
379Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 07:17
Similar greer patterns of abuse...
In March, 2000, she had filed a guardianship petition in the Clearwater Probate Court of Greer, allegedly unnecessary medical treatment and treatment converse to her mother’s express wishes which had been outlined in an advance directive. She sought to become her mother’s guardian.

At the time the allegations of neglect, abuse, exploitation and violation of her mother’s federal and state constitutional rights were filed, her mother was a patient in a Clearwater nursing, also against her expressed wishes.
It goes on to recount greer's sealing medical documents so the relatives don't have access to them, refusing to hear medical testimony, refusing as much information as possible to further the interests of the nursing home and the euthanasia lawyer.

 
380Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 07:24
You can really count of greer to be on the lookout for domestic abuse...
In asking for the court order, she told Greer that her husband forced himself on her sexually, burned her belongings and said she was possessed by the devil. Greer ruled that she didn’t have “enough proof” that her husband was violent because she said he had not been physically violent----yet.

Two weeks later, Helene McGee was dead, stabbed to death.
 
381Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 07:30
The judgement of greer never ceases to amaze...
And then there’s the case of Janet Smith, married seven times, at the center of a suspicious death and an alleged life insurance scam.

In September, 2003, Arkansas law enforcement agencies dropped charges against Smith, 61, for solicitation of murder when it was alleged she discussed with her son a plan to allegedly kill one of her former husbands.

The case has its roots in Pinellas County and in George Greer’s courtroom. In 1990, five months after Smith had married Randall Smith, he drowned in Suwanee River while supposedly fishing with a friend, an alleged paramour of Janet Smith. Soon after the marriage he had taken out large life insurance policies, naming her as the beneficiary. When he was found drowned, his children sued Smith, alleging that she had murdered him, saying that their father never would have gone near the water as he was afraid of water and couldn’t swim. Agents from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement concluded that Randall Smith’s name was forged on two insurance applications but could not prove who had forged them.

Greer awarded her the $230,000 estate saying that he “didn’t feel he had enough proof” of any wrongdoing by her. She was never charged in the case...
Someone forged insurance documents for meeee? Awww they shouldn't have. But I'll take the money anyway.

 
382Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 07:41
What do you know? Michael, Greer and Felos really are concerned with Terri's support.

They managed to get Terri's foundation fined and threatened for soliciting support while having put off filing until tax exempt status was achieved.

Of course no interest in medically supporting Terri or in the complete violation of every law and principle and paperwork requirements of guardianship in Michael's case and despite having allowed michael to embezzle Terri's therapy money to pay for the lawyer used to kill her.
 
383Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 07:56
Is this doctor a pro-life activist, Nerve?
Prawer [the lawyer who was sued for malpractice by Michael- B] contacted the Department of Health and reportedly turned over his entire case file on Terri Schiavo to the agency, asking them to investigate the cause of her injuries.

 
384Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 07:58
That was after the case was already settled btw. The doctor felt it was suspicious enuff for him to demand an investigation.
 
385Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 08:15
McCabe corruption watch

Investigator gets too good at exposing mob-politician sex shops. State tries to ruin investigator and Jeb Bush appoints Bernie McCabe to put the lid on it as special prosecutor.
 
386Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 08:20
If they freed him by cutting four years off his prison term, Christopoulos said, he would help them build criminal cases against corrupt Tampa Bay area politicians with organized crime connections.

Two Florida Department of Law Enforcement agents say Christopoulos, serving a 51/2-year term, may have deep mob contacts.

And court records show they are eager to use information Christopoulos gives them to investigate his allegations.

So eager, in fact, that statewide prosecutors agreed to a plan to free him.

But last week, Pinellas-Pasco State Attorney Bernie McCabe refused to cooperate, scuttling a promising public corruption investigation
 
387walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 08:40
Toral, #317 -- I am a NY liberal (I work and live in NYC and am liberal, so I guess I am a "NY liberal"). So, did you just call me "arrogant" and "evil"? I am not sure. If so, do you really think that? No way, right?

Regarding Ms. Schiavo. I guess I feel it bears repeating, but I'll just summarize by saying my view is that of Sarge33rd, bili, and PD on this -- it's about legal rights, and the gov't not (selectively and religiously) interfering with private matters. I am also of the opinion that Ms. Schiavo is in fact, beyond what I would deem to be "living" a life that anyone would want to live, other than those who are bound by religious laws. I also agree with Nerve in that it would be even better to more humanely end her life, like we would a pet, but that is way beyond the moral grounds of the religious folks who have a great say in our laws. Okay.

I am also conflicted in that, and this is a point my wife expressed to me, that if the parents say they are willing to "take on her life" as-is, and Mr. Schiavo is no longer her husband in the spirit, I'm not 100% sure why they should not be given this guardianship. I guess because at one time Ms. Schiavo apparently said to her guardian she would not want to live this way, and the law is backing that up. I understand. I also understand that if the parents were given custody or whatever you call it, and she really did express those sentiments, then her rights are violated. However, her sentiments are in dispute, without documentation, so giving guardianship to the parents seems like a decent alternative. Then, my only feelings are my own, which is that they should let go and they and their daughter can move on, in peace. However, that's not my call...

It's really gray. And really tough. But I don't think there's a vast conspiracy here either.

- walk
 
388Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 09:12
"The chief purpose of government is to protect life. Abandon that and you have abandoned all." - Thomas Jefferson
 
389katietx
      ID: 31226297
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 10:21
I guess because at one time Ms. Schiavo apparently said to her guardian she would not want to live this way, and the law is backing that up.

Exactly.

I do not have a written living will (at least not in the pure legal sense), but have expressed to both sarge and my son what my wishes are. I did type this out and both have a copy.

I would certainly hope that neither one would fight with each other as Terri's parents and husband have done.

As walk said, this is a gray area - regarding her exact wishes - but we can at this point only go with what her husband said she expressed.

The fact that he spent many of the early years doing everything he could to help in her recovery, i.e. taking her to specialists around the country, as well as going to California to try an experimental treatment that would possibly allow her brain to "regenerate," speaks volumes to me.

If, as Baldwin continues to rant about, her husband simply wants her dead so he can either avoid prosecution for supposed abuse, or to collect money why would he have spent the early years going to school to become a nurse to learn all he could and take care of her?

I don't believe I ever expressed to my parents (who are now deceased) my desire regarding prolonging life when no visible quality of life remains. Does this mean that they could usurp the wishes I expressed to my spouse?

My father had a DNR, but I only discovered this after he was disabled and unable to speak his wishes. My mother wanted to fight the DNR and expessed this to the Dr's. I fought her knowing full well that my father wouldn't want to be lying in a nursing home for years and years without the ability to continue living a productive life.

In Baldwin's view, I was wrong in doing this. Hopefully he will never have to make the decision to uphold a loved one's wishes in this regard. It is one of the hardest things he'll ever do.

 
390katietx
      ID: 31226297
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 10:23
I will also point out at the time T.Jefferson wrote that statement there was no such thing as prolonged life support, experimental drugs (well possibly but they were rudimentary), nursing homes, hospice, etc.

In most cases - you got sick - you died.
 
391walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 10:27
What katiex said in #390. I doubt the spirit of Thomas Jefferson's quote was in relation to the condition of someone like Ms. Schiavo.

It is a gray area, and we do have differences in our opinions of what is most important to us as individuals, relative to our morals, values and religious beliefs. Life is paramount to some, and quality of life is paramount to others.

- walk
 
392Baldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:07
To those who just can't wait for Terri to die because they just hate the religious...

Not only do we have the wierd religious views of Felos including that the Jews volunteered for the holocaust, but there is this wierd religious connection to the little corrupt knot of people killing Terri in Pinellas county...

  • Scientology teaches that if a person is disabled it is his or her fault.

    ...As Terri has been accused of with these uncooborated accusations of over-dieting.

  • Scientology teaches that a disabled person will move in the direction of death.

    ...thus Terri has been denied all therapy to give the impression she is following some inevitable downward spiral. Her contractions could have all been prevented with standard therapy any stroke victim gets.

    Felos is convinced Terri, like anyone he views as unpersons, actually wants to die.

  • Scientology teaches that disabled persons (Individuals who score low on the tone scale) will also bring death to those around them.

    ...which might be true if Terri had ever gotten speech therapy and pointed Michael out.

    Well of what relevance is scientology?
    It is probable that Scientology attorneys are on the board and/or are officers of the Clearwater Bar Association! Mike Faehner said:

    Many Johnson Blakely lawyers have been board members or officers in the association. The firm also sponsors bar activities, he said.

    It is becoming increasingly clear that the Clearwater Bar Association is on cozy terms with the "Church" of Scientology. They choose to have their monthly meetings at the Fort Harrison Hotel—Scientology headquarters. (See: Res Ipsa Loquitur) The Clearwater bar gladly endorses firms that litigate for Scientology. They even chose a Scientology attorney to present an award to Judge Greer for "passing the test" in the way he handled the Terri Schiavo case.

    Scientology For Euthanasia; Florida Law Against it

    Wally Pope represented the "Church" of Scientology in the wrongful death suit filed by the Estate of Lisa McPherson. He fought to enable Scientology to completely get away with dehydrating Lisa McPherson to death. They did not succeed. They settled with the Lisa McPherson Trust!

    Judge Greer's rulings have enabled Michael Schiavo (working on behalf of the Scientology agenda) to almost get away with dehydrating Terri Schiavo to death.

  •  
    393Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:08
    I think my husband is related to Thomas Jefferson...no punn intended...just a fact...Everyone in my life knows how I feel about death...I don't want anything...medical science...advances in medicine...nothing...to interfere...in the natural course of my life...I have made myself very clear...and it give's them something to laugh about...I have always talked openly about thier death's and mine...I'll follow their wishes and there will be hell to pay if they don't follow mine...For you see...with life comes death...I was born knowing that...it makes me sick what it will cost in dollars...because when I die someone has to pay$$$$$$...don't call the reaper...he's just doing his job.
     
    394Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:12
    If you found your wife nearly dead, you'd never forget that sight, would you?
     
    395Pancho Villa
          Sustainer
          ID: 533817
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:16
    re: #317

    The reasons for branding an entire group of political thought as evil has two objectives:

    oppression and
    suppression of reasonable dialogue.

    The level of arrogance and elitism required to make these blanket accusations is not the exclusive territory of the right or the left.

    Barely mentioned in this entire issue of Terri Schiavo is that Judge Greer is a Republican and a Baptist. I'm sure there are those who will scoff and claim that he's not a true Republican or Baptist, but do Democrats get the same leeway when Jessie Jackson continually embarrasses himself and his party?
    Is Newt Gingrich not evil even though he abandoned his stricken wife for a young hottie?

    There is a laundry list a mile long of generic statements damning every group from NY liberals to neoconservatives, long on rhetoric but short on specifics. Jay Nordlinger's article is a perfect example, his partisan opinion somehow passing for political discourse, guiding Toral to the conclusion that NY liberals are evil, arrogant and elitist.
    Nordlinger uses the example of Rep. Loretta Sanchez — the lady who beat Bob Dornan in California — and she sneered, "I thought conservatives believed in the sanctity of marriage."
    I fully agreed that this was a hallow topic in this case, but does that statement, standing alone, really promote a death cult?
    When a highly paid guide takes a millionaire into the woods with a pack of dogs to tree a bear or cougar so that he can kill it from 10 feet away, is that evil or good old fashioned recreation? Rather than answer, the response is usually to paint the questioneer as a radical tree-hugging, PETA supporting enviroweenie instead of examining the ethics and morality of said recreation or considering whether it should be included in any "sanctity of life" discussion. Another example of how we've allowed ourselves to be nonchalant about:

    oppression and
    suppression of reasonable dialogue.
     
    396katietx
          ID: 31226297
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:17
    As Terri has been accused of with these uncooborated accusations of over-dieting.

    She was bulimic. This has been verified by both her parents and doctors she saw prior to this incident. She was always overweight as a child and only got "thin" after her graduation from high school.

    thus Terri has been denied all therapy to give the impression she is following some inevitable downward spiral. Her contractions could have all been prevented with standard therapy any stroke victim gets.

    Ahhh, a great sweeping statement. She indeed had therapy in the early years of her disablement until many, many doctors confirmed that her condition was irreversible.

    So, Baldwin, those "other" stroke victims that haven't recovered - um, totally due to the unwillingness of family/doctors to give them standard treament. Seems a rather odd thing that so many stroke victims throughout the country have been conspired against to NOT receive treatment, huh?

    And now we add Scientology to the conspiracy.
     
    397Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:22
    The chief purpose of government #388... it just means...the government supports the life you choose to want...to give you the freedom to live out your life as you want...as long as you live...in the pursuit of happiness... you left that out...the pursuit of happiness...for the good of others and it means to exclude ourselves...individually...for all
     
    398Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:26
    So quick to believe doctors?
    James suffered a rare type of stroke in 1991. It seemed he had "no cognitive ability or awareness after the stroke." But one of James' friends had learned from a doctor about people who had a "locked-in" syndrome who could live "for years-unfortunately" said the doctor. Fearing that his friend, James would be "killed off as medical professionals exerted pressure on the family," Patton Howell and another of James' friends were determined to find a way for James to communicate. They were "persistent and creative" and successful and invited the hospital staff to observe the results. They asked James to tell the staff "I want to live" as a clear message. However the message that James typed was "I DEMAND TO LIVE A$$HOLE" as a "direct message to medical professionals in the room who had been expressing the opinion that keeping him alive was pointless."
    IIIII WAAAA

     
    399Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:27
    TOOO DIEEE!
     
    400Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:28
    and all of our hopes and dreams...fall upon the ones we love...good or bad. I'm learning to take what is dished out to me...and more sorry for what I have dished out...I am getting what I deserve.
     
    401Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:29
    Katie

    I watched her parents asked that question regarding bulemia and their answer was, "not that we ever saw".
     
    402Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:36
    I believe James Hall was typing for your benefit also, PD.
     
    403Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:36
    Baldwin...it's pointless...life and death are in God's hands...what are you arguing?...spend some of that time in prayer...Doctors are not God's...not even close...Read or find out what you talked about...you know the oath a doctor takes...it is simply a moral oath...should we all take one...I think so...
     
    404Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:39
    If I took a moral oath...I would fail it on accounts...I have no morals.
     
    405Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:39
    I don't believe God "takes" people, Judy.

    Except in one rare case in the Bible where he caused someone to die to rescue them from a mob that planned worse, death is usually mentioned as an enemy.
     
    406Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:41
    If you have no morals how do you get upset at badness, as you clearly do?
     
    407Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:49
    I mean I would fail it on all accounts...no exception...
     
    408Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:53
    Baldwin...Jesus death was known before it happened
     
    409Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:55
    God takes people...yes he does...for the Bible tell's me so...
     
    410Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 11:59
    I want to be bad...and I am learning...I want to be good at it...so that I can fool those around me...like I have been fooled.
     
    411Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 12:02
    In order to conquer death, Judy.
     
    412Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 12:03
    You sound like Jackie O.
     
    413Myboyjack
          Dude
          ID: 014826271
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 12:11
    TOOO DIEEE!

    You don't really think it equally likely that she was trying to say "I want to die!", do you PD?
     
    414Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 12:15
    WASHINGTON, March 24 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Consumer Advocate Ralph Nader and Wesley J. Smith, author of the award winning book "Culture of Death: The Assault on Medical Ethics in America" call upon the Florida Courts, Governor Jeb Bush and concerned citizens to take any legal action available to let Terri Schiavo live.

    "A profound injustice is being inflicted on Terri Schiavo," Nader and Smith asserted today. "Worse, this slow death by dehydration is being imposed upon her under the color of law, in proceedings in which every benefit of the doubt-and there are many doubts in this case-has been given to her death, rather than her continued life."

    Among the many injustices in this case, Nader and Smith point to the following:

    The courts not only are refusing her tube feeding, but have ordered that no attempts be made to provide her water or food by mouth. Terri swallows her own saliva. Spoon feeding is not medical treatment. "This outrageous order proves that the courts are not merely permitting medical treatment to be withheld, it has ordered her to be made dead," Nader and Smith assert.

    The medical and rehabilitation experts are split on whether Terri is in a persistent vegetative state or whether Terri can be improved with therapy. There is only one way to know for sure- permit the therapy. That is the only way to resolve all doubts.

    The court is imposing process over justice. After the first trial in this case, much evidence has been produced that should allow for a new trial-which was the point of the hasty federal legislation. If this were a death penalty case, this evidence would demand reconsideration. Yet, an innocent disabled woman is receiving less justice.

    The federal and state governments are spending billions on what we are told will become miracle medical cures for people with all sorts of degenerative conditions, including brain damage. If this is so, why not permit Terri's parents and siblings who want to care for her do so in the hope that such cures are discovered?

    Benefits of doubts should be given to life, not hastened death. This case is rife with doubt. Justice demands that Terri be permitted to live. - Ralph Nader

     
    415Myboyjack
          Dude
          ID: 014826271
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 12:22
    The court is imposing process over justice. After the first trial in this case, much evidence has been produced that should allow for a new trial-which was the point of the hasty federal legislation. If this were a death penalty case, this evidence would demand reconsideration. Yet, an innocent disabled woman is receiving less justice.

    The federal and state governments are spending billions on what we are told will become miracle medical cures for people with all sorts of degenerative conditions, including brain damage. If this is so, why not permit Terri's parents and siblings who want to care for her do so in the hope that such cures are discovered?

    Benefits of doubts should be given to life, not hastened death. This case is rife with doubt. Justice demands that Terri be permitted to live.


    Now see, I would have sworn that for twenty years or so that Ralph Nader gad been in a PVS. Yet, he comes out and puts together three coherent and provacative paragrapphs together for the first time in years. If there's hope for him.....
     
    416Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 12:48
    Lol! That was word for word my reaction.
     
    417Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 13:04
    Question for the sick bastards. It doesn't at all strike you odd that Terri discussed her desire to die to Michael's side of the family only?
     
    418j o s h
          ID: 272442819
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 13:25
    Seems odd that a "full of life" heathy 26 yr old discussed death with any great depth with anyone.
     
    419biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 13:29
    Well, after this, the smart ones will.

    My wife told me yesterday if I had the twisted, demented and sad thought of keeping her unthinking body alive for decades, she promised to haunt me for the rest of her life if she ever had the good fortune of getting out of that torturous situation.
     
    420biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 13:30
    er... my life.
     
    421Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 13:46
    as some people civil-rights and women abusers on this board (after all, i mean, by denying a woman her choice, you are abusing her) continue to bash Michael Schiavo for everything from following his wife's directive to dating another woman to murdering the pope and eatting 400 christian children, i find it interesting that the Schindlers were the ones pushing Michael Schiavo to start dating...

    It took Michael a long time to consider the prospect of getting on with his life," wrote Jay Wolfson, a court appointed guardian for Terri, in a December 2003 report to Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. "He was even encouraged by the Schindlers to date, and introduced his in-law family to women he was dating."
     
    422Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 13:49
    I've told my wife that after this I want to be preserved till the last brain cell fades and not to take anyone's word for that since I don't trust doctors anymore. And don't you even dare size up my kidneys and bloodtype.
     
    423biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 13:53
    Why don't you simply freeze yourself now, Baldwin, jeez. Then you will have one functioning brain cell for all eternity... or until you thaw.

    Doesn't your church teach you that death is a natural and expected part of the human condition?
     
    424Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:00
    To quote Terri Schindler-Schaivo, where there is life there is hope. Human life is far and away the most remarkable thing in the physical universe and I am going to savor it until the last drop and God willing, start all over again in God's Kingdom.
     
    425Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:15
    I've told my wife that after this I want to be preserved till the last brain cell fades and not to take anyone's word for that since I don't trust doctors anymore.

    what if your brain is soup?
     
    426biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:15
    Even soup occasionally contains a drowning gnat.
     
    427biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:20
    Confucious say:

    yee who fear the motives of all of those who know the fuller truth, shall suffer in frozen ignorance for eternity.

    Okay. Confucious didn't really say that.

    Regardless, too much paranoia and distrust of your fellow man is unhealthy, Baldwin. We are all in this together.
     
    428walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:26
    I hope so, bili, but then again, I'm just an "arrogant, evil terri killer."

    Bru-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

    - walk
     
    429biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:29
    I never doubted it for a second Mr. Walker.

    Sadly, I seem to have forgotten my "Starve Terri Club" secret handshake.
     
    430Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:29
    We are all in this together.

    Tell it to Terri.

    Heck tell it to half the country who overnight are suddenly goosestepping.
     
    431Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:31
    Tree

    The brain has more in common with a hologram than you might think. Each shard carries a remarkable fraction of the whole I believe.
     
    432Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:32
    Heck tell it to half the country who overnight are suddenly goosestepping.

    Baldwin, you guys have been goose-stepping for years now.
     
    433walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:38
    I dunno what goose-stepping is, but if Terri wanted to not have to live like a can of spam for 15 years, I think Mr. Schiavo is doing the right thing by her, by letting her go (we're not "killing" anyone). However, if the parents want to keep her around as a stuffed animal of sorts in the hope that in their lifetime that she can reanimated (makes me think of "Re-animator," great flick), then well maybe the can have that guardianship. I really just dunno.

    - walk
     
    434Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:45
    Goosestepping = rhapsodising over a brave new world unburdened by unpeople.
     
    435Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:55
    Goosestepping = rhapsodising over a brave new world unburdened by unpeople.

    got it. so, you're talking about Christians, eh? ya know, the ones who seem to think every Muslim, Jew, etc etc isn't as worthy as they are?
     
    436Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 14:59
    Christian missionaries are risking having their heads cut off to save those people you think we care not a wit for. Could you be more wrong?
     
    437biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:00
    Not to mention "illegals".

    Don't you just love when that word is made into a description of a group of people. It makes it easier to treat them and "unpeople".
     
    438Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:04
    Frankly I am thinking Terri has more brains and heart than Tree.
     
    439Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:05
    It never occured to me to euthanize them, Bili.
     
    440biliruben
          ID: 500432513
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:07
    But you are for "toughening up the border" which in reality gets them shot, they die of dehydration in the desert or they become slaves to their mules, or to whomever their mules sell their debt to.
     
    441Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:10
    Christian missionaries are risking having their heads cut off to save those people you think we care not a wit for. Could you be more wrong?

    ask Native Americans and the victims of the Crusades and the Inquisition about Christian missionaries...
     
    442Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:15
    Well I am not ecumenical and I don't view 99% of those, as having been from my religion. Thus I feel no guilt for what they did.
     
    443Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:30
    Well I am not ecumenical and I don't view 99% of those, as having been from my religion. Thus I feel no guilt for what they did.

    doesn't make them non-Christians Baldwin - i know you think your beliefs trump all, but that's usually not the case.
     
    444Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:37
    Jesse Jackson joins fight for Schiavo's life

    Baldwin and Jackson, together again for the very first time...
     
    445Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:53
    Look, it is not I who is injecting religion into this thread and this issue.

    But if you really insist...

    Throughout the pre-christian era most of the time only a small fraction of the population was faithful and Jesus pointed out Jerusalem was really...
    Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.
    Most Isrealites were not faithful and the nation and it's kings were more often unfaithful than faithful.

    Human nature being what it is, they didn't perform any better in Christendom.

    My people were the ones hanging from the dungeon walls of the inquisition.
    “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

    every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

    21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
    No I do not have to apologize for those in the majority who conducted the crusades and the inquisition, those who bore bad fruit and are to be thrown into the fire. No I do not have to apologize for those who took the easy road and did not follow Christ's difficult path. What do I have in common with them?

    Christendom [as opposed to true christianity] will be thrown into the fire for all the bad fruits you rightfully point out, and I won't shed a tear when it goes down.
     
    446Toral
          ID: 5529286
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:53
    Nat Hentoff from the Village Voice.
     
    447Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 15:55
    Bottom line, so yes it does make them non-christian.
     
    448Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 16:04
    What I said, Nat Hentoff. Right you are my liberal buddy.
     
    449Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 16:33
    It's long past doubting but here's more of judge greer's complete disregard for the law.
    The Empire Journal reports that McCabe and Rice both appeared in television commercials endorsing Judge Greer for re-election in 2004, even using a sheriff’s patrol car in the commercial.

    In a 30-second television spot first aired in mid-August on the FoxTV affiliate serving Pinellas and Pasco Counties as well as BayNews9, Greer is shown in a courtroom setting in the Pinellas County Building with appearances by James Hellickson, assistant state attorney; and Paula Shea, assistant state public defender.

    Also appearing in the political advertisement endorsing the reelection of Greer is a uniformed officer of the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Department, a sheriff’s patrol car and several attorneys.

    However, state law prohibits the use of governmental buildings for political purposes nor can any candidate use the service of any state officer or employee during working hours. Both Hellickson and Shea are state employees. Filming a TV commercial for political purposes inside the Pinellas County building is prohibited, especially the use of the courtroom, according to law and judicial ethics opinions issued by the Florida Supreme Court.

    Additionally, state law prohibits the political activity of state, county and municipal officers and employees for the purpose of influencing an election. It would appear that by appearing in the TV spot advocating Greer’s reelection, both Hellickson and Shea are lending the influence of their state positions for political purposes during working hours and in a governmental building.
     
    450nerveclinic
          ID: 291141416
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 16:37
    Is this doctor a pro-life activist, Nerve?

    No Baldwin but someone who has been sued by Michael Sciavos for malpractice isn't exactly unbiased.

    It does seem that ever time I try to track down a charge against Schiavos the person making the charge has an agenda.

     
    451Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 16:53
    Look, it is not I who is injecting religion into this thread and this issue.

    come on. when the Bush's and DeLay's et al got involved, it was because of religion.

    The Empire Journal...

    they've already been discredited. see post 378. they admit their main focus is to "help" Terri Schiavo.

    hardly an unbiased source...

     
    452Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:09
    they've already been discredited. see post 378. they admit their main focus is to "help" Terri Schiavo.


    You really are braindead Tree. Do I refuse to read the NYT at all just because they are sworn to tear down everything I believe in? Anyone who looks at the facts of this case and has a head and a heart does have saving Terri as their main focus.
     
    453Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:15
    “Misery can only be removed from the world by painless extermination of the miserable.” — a Nazi writer quoted by Robert J. Lifton in The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide
     
    454Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:16
    jackass.

    show me where the NY Times says, in no uncertain terms "we swear to tear down everything Baldwin believes in."

    it doesn't. but the Empire Journal very clearly states their intentions. they are not trying to be unbiased - in fact, just the opposite. they are like a preacher on the pulpit, and you are the sheep bleating away.
     
    455Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:21
    Tree, you enjoyed that "not dead yet" protest so much, so here are more details...
    Essentially, then, we have arrived at the point where we starve people to death because he or she cannot communicate their experiences to us. What is this but sheer egotism? Regardless of one’s religious beliefs, this is obviously an attempt to play God.

    Not Dead Yet, an organization of persons with disabilities who oppose assisted suicide and euthanasia, maintains that the starvation and dehydration of Terri Schiavo will put the lives of thousands of severely disabled children and adults at risk. (The organization takes its name from the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail in which a plague victim not dying fast enough is hit over the head and carted away after repeatedly insisting he is not dead yet.) Not Dead Yet exposes important biases in the “right to die” movement, including the fact that as early as 1988, Jack Kevorkian advertised his intention of performing medical experimentation (“hitherto conducted on rats”) on living children with spina bifida, at the same time harvesting their organs for reuse.

    Besides being disabled, Schiavo and I have something important in common, that is, someone attempted to terminate my life by removing my endotracheal tube during resuscitation in my first hour of life. This was a quality-of-life decision: I was simply taking too long to breathe on my own, and the person who pulled the tube believed I would be severely disabled if I lived, since lack of oxygen causes cerebral palsy. (I was saved by my family doctor inserting another tube as quickly as possible.) The point of this is not that I ended up at Harvard and Schiavo did not, as some people would undoubtedly conclude. The point is that society already believes to some degree that it is acceptable to murder disabled people.

    As Schiavo starves to death, we are entering a world last encountered in Nazi Europe. Prior to the genocide of Jews, Gypsies, and Poles, the Nazis engaged in the mass murder of disabled children and adults, many of whom were taken from their families under the guise of receiving treatment for their disabling conditions. The Nazis believed that killing was the highest form of treatment for disability.

    As the opening quote suggests, Nazi doctors believed, or claimed to believe, they were performing humanitarian acts. Doctors were trained to believe that curing society required the elimination of individual patients. This sick twisting of medical ethics led to a sense of fulfillment of duty experienced by Nazi doctors, leading them to a conviction that they were relieving suffering. Not Dead Yet has uncovered the same perverse sense of duty in members of the Hemlock Society, now called End-of-Life Choices. (In 1997, the executive director of the Hemlock Society suggested that judicial review be used regularly “when it is necessary to hasten the death of an individual whether it be a demented parent, a suffering, severely disabled spouse or a child.” This illustrates that the “right to die” movement favors the imposition of death sentences on disabled people by means of the judicial branch.)

    For an overview of what “end-of-life choices” mean for Schiavo, I refer you to the Exit Protocol prepared for her in 2003 by her health care providers (available online at http://www.cst-phl.com/050113/sixth.html). In the midst of her starvation, Terri will most likely be treated for “pain or discomfort” and nausea which may arise as the result of the supposedly humane process of bringing about her death. (Remember that Schiavo is not terminally ill.) She may be given morphine for respiratory distress and may experience seizures. This protocol confirms what we have learned from famines and death camps: death by starvation is a horrible death.

    This apparently is what it means to have “rights” as a disabled person in America today. - Harvard Crimson

     
    456soxzeitgeist
          ID: 12162916
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:29
    Just checking in to see what level of paranoid conspiracy baldwin has descended to.

    I see that anyone who isn't in agreement with him is now a genocidal Nazi killing machine.

    Awesome!

    Didn't know you had it in you , tree. It must be tough to reconcile your heritage with your political views, and even moreso given your hectic baby eating schedule.

    *laughing*

    And mbj (356) I misspoke (typed) - you are correct about the cap being on punitive, rather than compensatory awards. My mistake.

    We'll just disagree on the marriage angle. I can't believe you're using the unsubstantiated rumors of abuse as your defense though. I generally expect better from you.

    The chapter 7 observation is just that - an observation. I didn't say it was directly related to the Schaivo case, just occured to me that that it will soon be difficult to claim relief from overwhelming medical bills.
    And, yes, I think that's a bunch of crap. But that's another thread.
     
    457Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:30
    one of my closest friends is a quadraplegic, and he will tell you his condition is a loooong way from Terri Schiavo.

    he's more afraid of a Bush regime putting people in prison for being dark-skinned then he is of a husband trying to fufill his wife's wishes.
     
    458Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:39
    Greer corruption watch:

    Complete mindboggling corruption

    Greer thot this guy was dead and sent the corrupt sheriff out to steal his land.
     
    459Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 17:48
    McCabe corruption watch:

    Man gets 25 years for pain pills.
    Richard Paey, 45, of Hudson, Florida, is disabled. Injured in a traffic accident in 1985 while attending law school at the University of Pennsylvania, Paey suffered a severely herniated disk in his lower back. A first surgery failed, and a second operation, an experimental procedure involving screw inserted into his spine, only aggravated matters. It left his backbone splintered and the mass of nerves surrounding it mangled. Paey, who relies on a wheelchair for mobility, was left in excruciating chronic pain, which he treated with prescribed opioid pain relievers.

    But Paey's odyssey from being just another of America's tens of millions of chronic pain sufferers to a Florida jail cell was about to get underway. Paey and his family had been living in New Jersey, where a physician prescribed large amounts of opioid pain relievers for Paey, but when they moved to Florida, they could not find doctors willing to provide the high-dosage prescriptions needed to fend off the pain that tormented him.

    Paey, who has also been diagnosed with advanced multiple sclerosis, resorted to filling out prescription forms obtained from his New Jersey doctor and eventually came to the attention of the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Pasco County Sheriff's Office. Investigators reported watching Paey and his wheelchair roll into one pharmacy after another to pick up fraudulent prescriptions, adding up to more than 200 prescriptions and 18,000 pain pills in a year's time.

    No one could take so many pills, investigators suspected. Paey must be a drug dealer. And they charged him as one, even though no one has ever presented any evidence that Paey did anything with the pain pills except ease his own pain. Now, after two mistrials, plea bargain offers made and withdrawn, and plea bargain offers rejected by Paey, prosecutors have managed to win a conviction. A week from today, a Florida judge will decide Paey's fate, although if the judge follows state law, there is not much to decide. As a convicted Florida "drug trafficker," Paey faces a mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years in prison.

    In a last minute bid to win freedom for Paey, who is currently imprisoned in the hospital wing of the Pasco County Jail and is being treated with a morphine pump while in jail, his attorneys will use the occasion of next Friday's hearing to ask that the verdict be dismissed on the grounds that Paey's New Jersey physician, Dr. Steven Nurkiewicz, lied on the stand when he testified that he did not give Paey permission to fill out undated prescription forms.

    "The state knew Dr. Nurkiewicz was lying when he said he did not provide the prescription forms and that he only prescribed small numbers of pain pills, but they said he wasn't on trial, and they won't charge him with perjury," said Paey's wife Linda. "We tried to get a mistrial, but they were still able to put Nurkiewicz on the stand knowing that he had lied," she told DRCNet. "They feel like the end justifies the means, that my husband is a bad person, and that they've invested too much money in prosecuting him to let him get away. Now they will lose face if they drop the charges," she said.
    Yeah, there's no mercy in Pinellas county and from McCabe.

     
    460Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 18:22
    What do you think Nerve? Is this normal big city abusiveness or is it way over the line?
     
    461Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 18:34
    The list of criminals, retired and active is:

    Bernie McCabe: Current State Attorney and protégé of the pig listed below.

    James T. Russell: Pinellas County State Attorney, retired and hiding

    Charles Rainey: Former Chairman of the County Commission, The Godfather.

    George Ruppel: Governor Askew’s Patronage Chief, banker, and former County Commissioner, pure evil.

    Charles Burke: Judge

    George Greer: Judge

    Arnold Levine, Esq.

    Tim Johnson, esq.

    John Blakely, Esq.

    Dennis Ruppel, Esq.

    Max Battle: City Engineer

    Bill Stopher: Utilities Manager

    It is a longer list but you get the idea. These people, one dead, thank God, have plundered this County for thirty five years. Our infrastructure is a nightmare because they took bribes from developers and let them run rampant.

    The only person on Earth that can prosecute these pigs is the State Attorney. His “real” job is to never indict any of them unless they become a problem. Like wanting to go straight. Or try to take over the top spot.

    None of the above organized crime figures will say a word if I mail this to everyone on Earth. They are all guilty scum, still working their terror, and feeling all right. The newspapers are part of the scam. The founder of the St. Pete Times said it is not his job to disrupt the system. The people have to do it themselves. It is in his biography. Read it. I did.

    By the way - my brother and sister -in - law (also an attorney) are making great headway against the group listed above - REALLY. They have sued the entire 6th judicial circuit and are driving them nuts - It took permission from a Federal Judge to file the suit - but it is filed and working its way through the process
     
    462Myboyjack
          ID: 121159118
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 19:16
    We'll just disagree on the marriage angle. I can't believe you're using the unsubstantiated rumors of abuse as your defense though. I generally expect better from you.Sox

    I don't have an opinion on the abuse thing - i don't know. What I said is that many of the Schindler's supporters believe it, sincerely. That, along with the adultry thing (I'm not judging, Michael, really, but having kids with one woman with a woman who's not your wife pretty much dstroys the idea of a sacramental marriage, doncha think?) make the "What happened to the sanctity of marriage, Feed Terri Fans?" a silly argument.

    I don't have to know the veracity of the abuse charges to understand that those who believe them true aren't being hypocritical when they simultaneously support the sanctity of marriage and feeding Terri Schiavo.
     
    463Myboyjack
          ID: 121159118
          Tue, Mar 29, 2005, 20:08
    I hope those who dismiss this as some kind of kooky religious right issue read Toral's link to the Nation's Nat Hentoff, atheist. See Post 446.

    Ralph Nader, Jessie Jackson, Nat Hentoff - minions of the Religious Right.

    Note to Left: Just because George Bush and Baldwin are on one side an issue doesn't mean you have to be on the other side.
     
    464sarge33rd
          ID: 582341722
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 00:10
    yes it does. ;)
     
    465Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 06:22
    Note to Left: Just because George Bush and Baldwin are on one side an issue doesn't mean you have to be on the other side.

    unless it's a choice and personal freedoms issue. Baldwin and Bush are both anti-choice, and anti-women's rights.
     
    466Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 08:08
    Given his divided loyalties, who knows what side Bush is on?
     
    467Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 10:43
    My friend has an ethic's class and had to write a paper on life and death...she's in nursing...she told me she didn't know what the h--- she was going to write....that she didn't know anything about dying...and her life has been a b----...she had lost one of her twin babies at birth...and the pain is as fresh as the day it happened...we talked about the free will we are given...the power of it...yet no power over death...AS far as Bush is concerned...he is not God...He knows (Bush)...not everyone is happy with his decisions...do you make everyone happy in your life?...Right now I am p------ alot of people off for what I choose to say and do...If you are so outraged by letting Terri die...why don't all of you who are feeling this way...fight for stronger penalties for murder, rape, incest...if you feel a need to breath life back into Terri...knowing there is only going to be a room with four walls for the rest of her time...let's give four walls to those who deserve it...That would be her forever...four walls...no ability to be herself...only who she is now...If you want her to live like that...that's a selfishness...with no purpose whatsoever...
     
    468biliruben
          ID: 531202411
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 10:55
    Cathy Young examines the "experts" on the feed-Terri side.

    There is also the fact that Dr. William Hammesfahr, the only one of the eight neurologists to examine Schiavo who asserted that she was not in a persistent vegetative state, has been touted (by Fox News' Sean Hannity, among others) as an outstanding physician who has been nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine. In fact, his "nomination" consists of a letter from his Congressman to the Nobel Committee stating that he deserves to be nominated for the "Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine" (the Committee was no doubt impressed). Dr. Hammesfahr is the practitioner of a questionable method of treatment for stroke survivors that is generally not recognized in the medical profession (in plain English, he may be a quack); he has been disciplined by the Florida Medical Board and has never published in legitimate peer-reviewed journals.

    There is plenty to be said about the junk science in this case -- for instance, the 17 affidavits submitted in support of the parents' claim that Schiavo may not be vegetative by medical experts (who never examined Schiavo and based their conclusions on viewing short video clips). Interestingly, the affidavits have been removed from the Terrisfight.org site, but an extensive and persuasive critique of them can be found here. In the hysterical atmosphere that reigns among the "pro-Terri" blogs, any dubious claim spread like wildfire. A medical blog called CodeBlueBlog claims that the image of Schiavo's brain scan shows far less deterioration than most exerts have asserted, and that her bone scan shows signs of physical abuse. I haven't been able to find out much about the blogger, apparently a Florida-based radiologist named Dr. Thomas Boyle; I do know, however, that not long ago, he also claimed that the altered appearance of Ukrainian presidential candidate Victor Yushchenko was caused not by (later confirmed) poisoning with dioxin but by a combination of excessive drinking and rosacea covered with makeup. He has also claimed, on the basis of recent published photos of Bill Clinton after heart surgery, that the former President actually has cancer or AIDS.
     
    469Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:01
    Honestly we can't ever keep a balance in our posting regarding every injustice that is out there. What am I going to do? Say, "Well I've made my Terri post for the day. Now I need to do 10,000 Sudan posts and 9,000 posts about the plight of the Hmong, 3,000 posts about tsunami relief, 6,000 posts about the Congo, etc?"
     
    470Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:04
    Well go on Bili, tell us all the nurses are lying B/tches too.
     
    471Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:09
    It's more important to love than to be loved...when you lose the ability to express yourself...you've lost your mind...I don't mean insanity...but Terri is locked in her body...without a voice...Let no one but God speak for her...even if there is a long silence.
     
    472Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:17
    Baldwin...go read the bible again...either you have forgotten something or read over it...If you believe in God...then you know there is a place for things and for the thing's that will come and God can speak forhimself...You see no truth...when there is one...it might not be your's....but it will be God's...God ask anyone that speaks for him ...say nothing or say very little...
     
    473soxzeitgeist
          ID: 5246912
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:34
    *laughing*

    Way to get your due dilligence on, bili.

    Sorry, baldwin, at this point (for anyone with any reason at least), strawmen, appeals to emotion and ad hominems are not going to cut it.
     
    474Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:42
    There is also the fact that Dr. William Hammesfahr, the only one of the eight neurologists to examine Schiavo who asserted that she was not in a persistent vegetative state. - Bili

    Well no, two out of the five doctors relied on in the original trial defended Terri. Let us not forget that it is greer and michael who are desperate not to have her further investigated. It is not the case that Terri's parents are trying to limit the investigation to only doctors that agree with them. That would be the conduct of greer and michael.

    You think Hammesfahr has only treated four patients?

    Neurologists go to Hammesfahr when they have strokes.
    One of the first stroke patients, Ronald Clark, had suffered 12 strokes that left him paralyzed on one side of his body and had spent a full year in the VA hospital and three additional years without improvement paralyzed before coming to the clinic. He was unable to walk without heavy braces and spent much of his time in a wheelchair. Now, he works as a painting contractor, often climbing to the top of three story buildings, and he is back playing his guitar.

    Ron is certainly not alone; since his initial visit, Dr. Hammesfahr’s team has treated nearly 2,000+ stroke survivors.

    The results of this therapy have been so remarkable that Dr. Hammesfahr has written and lectured extensively about it and he has invited physicians, primarily based in universities, to visit the facility and observe first-hand these results. These visits have resulted in several facilities beginning to work with Dr. Hammesfahr to bring these treatments to their clinics. His work has been published in the peer-reviewed web based journal, Lifelines, and requested by several major print medical journals for publication.

    This therapy also garnered him the 1999 nomination for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology. His nomination was of the highest order, a Congressional nomination with Medical Peer Review. His peer-reviewed publications are among the few written by private physicians found on the Internet home page of the Karolinski Institute, home of the Nobel Prize in Medicine.
    What is the Karolinski Institute?
    In 1895 Alfred Nobel appointed Karolinska Institutet to handle the awarding of the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.
    nominated for the "Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine" (the Committee was no doubt impressed...

    Well so it would seem. They are impressed enuff to publish his medical papers...

    Here is one of the medical articles the Karolinska Institutet has on their website.
     
    475Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:44
    You are so gullible, Bili...sheesh, internet sites desperate Terri die, claims someone is a quack and you believe them. Lol! ;>
     
    476Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:51
    That last link says medforum but I got it from this link in Karolinska Institutet's website. It was the only doctor they relied on for that subject. btw they mispelled the name adding an r but when you use the link it takes you to Hammesfahr's paper.
     
    477Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 11:59
    And btw anytime anyone has a revolutionary new treatment there will be plenty of 'peers' defending their turf, their outmoded model of treatment.
     
    478biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:00
    Are you kidding me? Do you even know what peer review is? He's calling a chat forum a peer reviewed journal, and the only place he's published (and the last time was 1998) was on this chat fourm.

    Take a deep breath and step back before holding this guy up as your expert.
     
    479Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:05
    The Karolinska Institutet says these are "quality controlled" links so that tells me someone reviewed their inclusion.
     
    480Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:10
    And her parents have 50 doctors now willing to testify on Terri's behalf. Yeah yeah, I know. They're just angling for a patient. What a low opinion you have of doctors. I am amazed.
     
    481biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:10
    It looks like an editor proofs them, and other forum members comment. I guess you could call that peer review in some large existential sense, though that's not the accepted meaning.

    It's like saying that guru-rotation is peer reviewed.
     
    483biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:13
    ... accept that at least Guru put his ideas past actual experts in the field. ;)
     
    484Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:14
    Yeah, it's only the institute that awards the Nobel Prize. What the hell was I thinking.
     
    485Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:22
    Maybe he pulled the wool over their eyes with his Swedish sounding name, Huh? 8]
     
    486biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:24
    So because they have one of his articles in their online library, that automatically confers a Nobel Prize on the dude?

    Do you, perhaps, Das Kapital on your bookshelf? ;)
     
    487Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:30
    Bili, that was beneath you. I didn't say that and you know it.

    He claims he's the federal government's chief reviewer of new research in that field so I'll keep lookin for that. If true it isn't any leap at all to say his nomination was legit.
     
    488biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:37
    Okay. Let me know what you find. There are plenty of legitimate neurology journals out there, that other neurologists (and even geeks like me) actually read.

    I would think that if he were any kind of expert he would want to share his ideas and critiqued by the larger community of neurologists.
     
    489Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:37
    I guess I'll give you the hyperbole excuse but let's be sure and understand what that was.

    Here is a year's worth of peer review.
     
    490Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:40
    Read the last letter in that list and tell me you are not in the slightest impressed.
     
    491biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 12:47
    That's what's called a case series, and is a good place to start for generating hypotheses and designing more useful studies, if properly documented and written up in a usable way.

    My sister could generate a similar list of stroke patients who have recovered using her acupuncture method. Most self-respecting neurologists would call her a quack too.

    That doesn't mean her method, or your fine doctor's method doesn't work. We just don't know. Sometimes people just recover from strokes.

    What this has to do with either my sister or your good doctor being experts on PVS, I have no idea.
     
    492Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 13:06
    People are treating this Nobel nomination like it was foolish. How do you think these things come about. This wasn't just some boob representative just doing a constituent a 'service'.

    The representative who nominated him is Chairman of the Subcommittee on Health and Environment in the USA House of Representatives and is no fool on matters of health thank you very much.

    You guys think it's awful character assassination when we point out Terri's injuries most suggest a strangulation [which stone cold true] but you have no qualms about casting baseless aspersions on a doctor.
     
    493Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 13:16
    Baldwin with the "you guys are throwing around baseless allegations" (!)

    hahahahahahahahahaha!
     
    494biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 13:20
    There is no "Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine," Baldwin.

    It's hard not to treat it as a joke, when the dude starts spouting off about medicare dollars saved to the committee, as if they would care.

    My guess is it was some silly political game, where he got his arm twisted by someone who's grandma recovered after being treated.

    Your good representative Bilirakis, despite his fine name, isn't even qualified to nominate someone. That distinction lies with the following groups:

    # Members of the Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm;
    # Swedish and foreign members of the medical class of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences;
    # Nobel Laureates in Physiology or Medicine;
    # Members of the Nobel Committee not qualified under paragraph 1 above;
    # Holders of established posts as professors at the faculties of medicine in Sweden and holders of similar posts at the faculties of medicine or similar institutions in Denmark, Finland, Iceland and Norway;
    # Holders of similar posts at no fewer than six other faculties of medicine selected by the Assembly, with a view to ensuring the appropriate distribution of the task among various countries and their seats of learning; and
    # Practitioners of natural sciences whom the Assembly may otherwise see fit to approach.

    Stop embarrassing yourself.
     
    495Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 13:29
    Stop patting yourself on the back and declaring victory. The fact is that this cutting edge doctor is helping people that have already been helped as much as legacy medicine can and he gets fantastic results on patients who have been given up on.
     
    496walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 13:52
    I dunno, isn't bili an epidimiologist? I trust he knows a little more about the requirements for esteemed medical publication. It's not dissimilar to my field, psychology. I surely know that a peer reviewed journal, an "officiated" journal publication, is a big deal, and not easy, and if this Hammesfahr dude does not have any referreed pub's nor is regularly regarded as an exeprt in the cases of "persistent/permanent vegetative state," then his opinion matters little. So enough already.

    I like the headline in today's NY Post: "Enough: Let her die in peace." This is one of the local rags in NYC that freakin' was a leader in the media hype of this circus act, and now they are saying: "enough."

    Enough is right...as in 3 freakin' weeks ago when this was a private matter to the family. Maybe the parents should have guardianship? Maybe Terri did express that she would not want to live like this? Maybe it has been too long for us to even consider any alternative other than death (15 years as a veggie is a lot longer than 2 weeks of writing posts on an internet discussion forum)? Maybe there are legal and/or civil liberties issues that are bigger than the poor life of a person with a mostly liquified cerebral cortex? And maybe there are other cases, similar to this one, that warrant even greater outrage or attention?

    - walk
     
    497Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 14:13
    Nerve
    "Perhaps at some distant date only the unaberrated person will be granted civil rights before law. Perhaps the goal will be reached at some future time when only the unaberrated person can attain to and benefit from citizenship. These are desirable goals..." Dianetics; the Modern Science of Mental Health, by L. Ron Hubbard (1987 edition, p.534)
    You don't find it an amazing coincidence that judge greer received an award from a scientologist lawyer in the worldwide headquarters of scientology, being congratulated for having "passed the test" in the Schiavo case, in the exact same building as scientology dehydrated to death Lisa McPherson?

     
    498Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 14:17
    Our corrupt DA Bernie McCabe negotiated a $15,000 fine plus the expenses of the state's investigation in the McPherson case, btw. That'll stop 'em.

    $15,000 for dehydrating someone to death, wow, more than michael or greer was fined at least.
     
    499soxzeitgeist
          ID: 5246912
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 14:33
    Not to mention that according to the "Statutes of the Nobel Foundation", information about the nominations is not to be disclosed, publicly or privately, for a period of fifty years. The restriction not only concerns the nominees and nominators, but also investigations and opinions in the awarding of a prize.

    So, if he had been nominated he would be violating fundamental Nobel Foundation principles to claim that.

    And then there's the underlying absurdidity of comparing stroke treatments to treating a petient that suffers from an oxygen deprived brain "insult".

    I'll stick with the epidemeologists POV.
     
    500Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 14:44
    Check your e-mail, Nerve. I am dying to hear your take.

    I just found out Terri was:

  • strangled on St. Valpurgis Day.
  • chose the anniversary of her 'collapse' to order her dehydration
  • appointed michael guardian on scientology holiday, Academy Day
  • ordered her dehydration to begin on scientology holiday, L. Ron Hubbard Exhibition Day

    Also check out what Felos' 'kill with a thot' airplane experience must mean to him. Felos

    I'm not saying these dates mean anything to me of course. That doesn't mean they don't carry weight at the scientology headquarters.
  •  
    501walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 14:58
    It's a vast conspiracy. An x-file. And if it were...? Then I really don't give a crap. Another OJ trial without a heisman trophy, actor, all-pro celebrity. Ugh. One way or another, this is one story that has run its course...Poor Ms. Schiavo.

    - walk
     
    502Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 15:28
    holy John Travolta!

    the Scientoligists are murdering Terri Schiavo, and her husband choked her because he received a phone call that awakened the sleeper agent in him, and it all happened because Terri Schiavo was fated to carry the new Jesus and the Scientologists didn't want that to happen for their own nefarious, yet undetermined reasons!
     
    503Perm Dude
          Dude
          ID: 030792616
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 15:54
    "miles to go before I sleep...."
     
    504Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 15:57
    You both don't have that whole occultist thing down which is a good thing actually. Carry on. Some of these players have entered into what I have always called "witchcraft defense" territory where what they are doing is so whacky evil the fact that no one could believe anyone could be that sick, actually protects them.
     
    505katietx
          ID: 52227308
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:03
    rofl Tree. It is an x-file. Where's Mulder/Scully when you need them?
     
    506soxzeitgeist
          ID: 5246912
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:11
    I guess the real question is "why", especially since you're now insinuating that it's a Scientologist conspiracy - does that exonerate Michael from your earlier abuse charges? Or are we just grasping at straws...I'd love to get Nerve's take on all of this.
     
    507Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:12
    Attorney: Michael Schiavo Looks 'Peaceful, Euphoric'
    by Scott Ott

    (2005-03-29) -- Attorney George Felos today said that his client, Michael Schiavo, entered the 11th day of depriving his wife of food and water looking peaceful and "as beautiful as I've seen him in years."

    "Death by dehydration is not the awful specter that so-called 'pro-lifers' have portrayed it to be," said Mr. Felos as he stood outside of Terri Schiavo's Florida hospice. "I was actually in the room with the Schiavos. Michael looked very peaceful. He looked calm. I saw no evidence of any bodily discomfort whatsoever, even though he's not receiving morphine."

    "As Terri gets closer to death," Mr. Felos added, "her husband's face has actually taken on an almost euphoric appearance."
     
    508Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:18
    Gov. Bush Washes Hands of Schiavo Matter
    by Scott Ott

    (2005-03-27) -- In a symbolic move, designed to show Terri Schiavo's supporters that he has done all he can do to spare her life, Gov. Jeb Bush today publicly used a disposable moist towlette to "wash his hands of the matter."

    "I find nothing deserving death in this woman, but I'm only the supreme executive of Florida," the governor told a crowded news conference. "Perhaps if our constitution called for a balance of powers to protect our citizens against judicial abuse, I could do something. But as it stands, she is in the hands of the judges. It's their job to determine what is truth. If she dies, it's not my fault."

    In related news, Gov. Bush continued his Easter tradition of pardoning a Florida citizen chosen by a statewide poll of judges. This year's candidates for pardon were Mrs. Schiavo and burglar who had killed a homeowner during a break-in.

    The burglar won in a landslide. - Scrappleface

     
    509Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:21
    Sox

    I have no reason to believe he is in scientology himself. One way or another he won the strangler lottery.
     
    510Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:25
    was scrappleface ever funny?

    seems kinda like a poor imitation of The Onion, designed for white male christians who wouldn't know humour if Brian Cohen himself opened the shutters and showed them himself...
     
    511Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:31
    You both don't have that whole occultist thing down which is a good thing actually. Carry on. Some of these players have entered into what I have always called "witchcraft defense" territory where what they are doing is so whacky evil the fact that no one could believe anyone could be that sick, actually protects them.

    well, i don't know about that.

    i mean, i can think of roughly 62,040,606 people who were so dim that they believed someone who is actually pure evil was the shining beacon of God.
     
    512walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:39
    Court Refuses Schiavo Plea
     
    513Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:44
    Anytime Katie comes out of the woodwork to defend or distract I know I am on the right track.
     
    514Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 16:49
    Baldwin - Anytime Katie comes out of the woodwork to defend or distract mock me I know I am on the right track.
     
    515Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 17:04
    One of the excuses that corrupt Bernie McCabe used to not adequately prosecute scientology over the starvation of Lisa McPherson was...
    On June 12, 2000 the criminal charges were dropped against Scientology because (so the prosecutor claims) the medical examiner could not be counted on to confidently testify...
    Yeah, I'm not expecting I can count on the same medical examiner who will be performing Terri's autopsy, in this case either.
     
    516Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 17:17


    we're here to help!
     
    517Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 18:46
    #513...she has a beautiful voice...the depth of it speaks volumn...But you know what...I have never heard it...is it possible to hear with the heart from where she spoke to me ...trying to share a lesson she knew? and i will someday learn?
     
    518Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 19:02
    Baldwin...the most important lesson you could ever learn is to be a man of few words...the less spoken the more is said... a man of few words is a man of standing...because he is too busy listening...your profile here says you are something you show not to be...someone who bears the cross of everyman...but doesn't want to carry it.
     
    519Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 19:05
    The rest of you ignore this crazy woman...please?
     
    520soxzeitgeist
          ID: 37263020
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 21:22
    cha-ching! The Schindlers sell their list of their financial supporters to a conservative direct-mailing firm.

    Awesome.
     
    521Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 21:38
    They can't get enuff money from my e-mail addy to please me.
     
    522Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 21:40
    Judy

    Believe me I am always looking for the shortest most efficient way to get my point across.
     
    523Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 22:44
    Before there was Terri there was Lisa
    A new Scientology release form has surfaced that gives the cult the right to hold its members in isolation indefinitely, and absolves it of any responsibility for a member's injury or death as a result -- the "Lisa McPherson clause". (Thanks to Scientology PR spokesperson Linda Simmons Hight for confirming the document's authenticity to Fox News.)

    Scientology killed Lisa McPherson in Clearwater, Florida, on December 5, 1995. She was held against her will for 17 days, denied medical care, and forcibly sedated. When her guards tried to force her to undergo the Introspection Rundown and she refused, she was kept in an isolation lock-down until she died from severe dehydration. Forensic entomologists later identified 110 cockroach feeding sites on her body, and three nationally prominent forensic pathologists opined that the manner of death was "homicide".
    They are very proud of this "tech" too. They call their headquarters a "mecca of technical perfection".
     
    524katietx
          ID: 282303022
          Wed, Mar 30, 2005, 23:30
    Anytime Katie comes out of the woodwork to defend or distract I know I am on the right track.

    ROFLMAO - Baldwin, you never cease to amuse me. I needed a good laugh today, thanks for obliging.

     
    525Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 05:13
    On the bright side, after two weeks of TV coverage of the Terri Schiavo case, I think we have almost all liberals in America on record saying we can pull the plug on them. Of course, if my only means of entertainment were Air America radio, Barbra Streisand albums and reruns of "The West Wing," I too would be asking: "What kind of quality of life is this?"

    There are a few glaring exceptions. On the anti-killing side, to one extent or another, are: former Clinton lawyer Lanny Davis, former Gore lawyer David Boies, former O.J. lawyer Alan Dershowitz, Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman, McGovern and Carter strategist Pat Caddell, liberal blogger Mickey Kaus, Green Party presidential candidate Ralph Nader and Rainbow Coalition leader Jesse Jackson, as well as several of my friends who are pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage but not Pro-Adulterous Husbands Who, After Taking Up With Another Woman, Suddenly Recall Their Wives' Clearly Stated Wish to Die.

    Opinions about the Schiavo case seem to break down less on morals than on basic knowledge of the facts of the case.

    There are a lot of telling facts, but two big ones are:

    The only family member lobbying for Terri's death is her husband, who is affianced to a woman he's been living with for several years and with whom he already has two children. (Today's brain twister: Would you rather be O.J.'s girlfriend or Michael Schiavo's fiancee?)

    Terri's husband has refused to allow her to be given either an MRI or a PET scan, which are also known as: "The tests that could determine whether Terri is even in a permanent vegetative state." (I believe his exact words were, "PET scan? MRI? What do I look like, a guy who just won a $1 million malpractice settlement?")

    On the basis of these facts, Pinellas County Judge George Greer found that it was Terri's wish to be starved to death. She requires no life support; all she needs is food and water. If being (a) on a liquid diet, and (b) unresponsive to one's estranged husband are now considered grounds for a woman's execution, wait until this news hits Beverly Hills!

    Despite the media's idiotic claims that scores of courts have made painstaking findings of fact over 15 years that Terri is in a permanent vegetative state and would have wanted to die, only one judge made such a finding. Other courts have not made any factual findings whatsoever. They simply refused to overturn Greer's findings of fact as an abuse of discretion.

    Greer made his finding based on the testimony of Terri's husband that Terri said she wouldn't want to live like this – a rather important fact the husband only remembered many years after Terri was first injured, but one year after he won a million-dollar malpractice award and began living with another woman. (Maybe when Terri said, "I wouldn't want to live like that" she was referring to being married to Michael Schiavo.)

    Supporting the idea that positions on the Schiavo case are correlated with IQ, on the pro-killing side is Rep. Chris Shays, R-Conn., who denounced the legislation granting federal courts jurisdiction over Terri's case, saying the Republican Party "has become a party of theocracy." Yes, you remembered correctly: The House passed the bill overwhelmingly in a 203-58 vote, and the Senate passed it in a voice vote also with overwhelming support. (Surely, if anyone would defend the practice of being on a liquid diet, you'd think Ted Kennedy would.)

    Also on the pro-killing side are conservatives still pissed off about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 who are desperately hoping to be elected "most consistent constitutionalist" by their local Federalist Society chapters.

    You can't grow peanuts on your own land or install a toilet capable of disposing two tissues in one flush because of federal government intervention. But Congress demands a review of the process that goes into a governmental determination to kill an innocent American woman – and that goes too far!

    It's not a radical extension of current constitutional doctrines – even the legitimate ones! – for the federal government to assert a constitutional right to life that cannot be denied without due process of law under the Fifth and 14th Amendments. Congress didn't ask for much, just the same due process John Wayne Gacy got.

    But people even stupider than lawyers have picked up on the vague rumblings from "most consistent constitutionalist" aspirants and begun to claim that Congress' action is an affront to "limited government."

    Of course, the most limited of all possible governments is a king. We don't have that sort of "limited government." What we have is divided government: three branches of government at the federal level and 50 states with their own versions of checks and balances.

    Or at least that was the government designed for us by men smarter than we are. We haven't had that sort of government for decades.

    Alexander Hamilton's famous last words in "The Federalist" described the judiciary as the "least dangerous branch," because it had neither force nor will. Now the judiciary is the most dangerous branch. It doesn't need force because it has smoke and mirrors and a lot of people defending the moronic scribblings of any judge as the perfect efflorescence of "the rule of law."

    This week, an indisputably innocent woman will be killed by the government for one reason: Judge Greer of Pinellas County, Fla., ordered it.

    Polls claim that a majority of Americans objected to action by the U.S. Congress in the Schiavo case as "government intrusion" into a "private family matter" – as if Judge Greer is not also the government. So twisted is our view of the judiciary that a judicial decree is treated like a naturally occurring phenomenon, like a rainbow or an act of God.

    Our infallible, divine ruler is a county judge in Florida named George Greer, who has more authority in America than the U.S. Congress, the president and the governor. No wonder the Southern Baptist Church threw Greer out: Only one god per church!

    It's a good system if you like monarchy and legally sanctioned murder. But spare me the paeans to "strict constructionism" and "limited government." - She Who Rules All She Surveys

     
    526Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 05:20
    Mel Gibson -
    "It's just completely wrong to deprive this poor woman of food and water," Gibson said on Sean Hannity's national radio show yesterday. "It's a prolonged and cruel execution."

    Gibson continues contact with the family of the brain-injured Florida woman who has been starving since her feeding tube was removed by court order March 18.


    "I'm appalled and stunned that we've gotten to this," Gibson said. "I just sit here watching this whole scenario play out in front of me with my mouth hanging wide open, that our country has come to this. I think it's really a dark, black day. And I think that this final appeal – it's too little too late. It's an attempt [by] the powers that be to sort of really just cover their a-- later on so they can say we tried, but in fact, they're not trying real hard. ...

    "What happened to just being a human being, you know? It's nothing more than state-sanctioned murder. All the big guys, they all have their hands tied up by some tinhorn judge down there. Come on, when they want to whip a judge, they got no problem doing that. Look what they did to [Ten Commandments proponent Roy Moore] in a heartbeat. So they can do it if they want. They just don't want to."

    Gibson, whose films include the "Mad Max" trilogy, "Braveheart," "The Patriot," and the "Lethal Weapon" series, acknowledges Schiavo has "some brain damage," but adds "she's not a vegetable," noting the debate over whether or not she's in a persistent vegetative state is not resolved.

    "It hasn't had a fair going-over yet, so to just go right to this crucifixion of this woman ... even a dog has more rights. You do this to an animal, they'll lock you up, but this is a human being we're doing this to."


    'Passion of The Christ' director Mel Gibson compares Terri Schiavo's starvation to crucifixion (courtesy Icon Distribution)


    Calling it completely merciless, Gibson said there's a pro-death agenda being pushed on the public with this case.

    "It's a precedent that they set," he said. "We may be able to save a few Social Security dollars later on down the track simply by pulling the plug on the infirmed or the disabled or the aged. It's the inevitability of gradualism. ... There is an agenda, and people say 'Well, they can't all be in it together,' but there's no other way to explain this behavior."

    For all the ugliness Gibson sees in the starvation of Schiavo, he warned, "We'll see worse than this."


    Sean Hannity

    When Hannity pointed out the case is a defining moment for society, Gibson responded, "A lot depends on it. If she does travel into the next dimension, hopefully it will mean something and we'll learn from it, and something positive will come from it. It's just a terrible tragedy to watch state-sanctioned murder."

     
    527Cosmo's Cod Piece
          ID: 481152817
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 06:20
    Baldwin: With a lot of happenings in this case taking place in or immediately near Clearwater Florida, I'm not surprised about the Scientology aspect of it.

    Let's see what their wonderful leader says about the disabled...

    Death By Dehydration: Terri's Wish or Hubbard's Hurrah?

    "Furthermore, Scientologists believe that people who cannot be raised above a 2.0 level on L. Ron Hubbard's tone scale have an urge to die:

    Society, the bulk of which is bent upon survival, fails or refuses to recognize death or the urge of organisms toward it. Society passes laws against murder and suicide. Society provides hospitals. Society carries such people [the disabled] on its back. And society will not hear of euthanasia or "mercy killing." (Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard; pg. 28)

    According to Judge Greer's November 22, 2002 order to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding and hydration tube, Terri must substantially improve or be permitted no improvement at all; indeed, no life at all. She must win (substantially improve) or lose everything (be dehydrated to death). Judge Greer made no allowance for a small or moderate improvement.

    2nd Appeals Court Judge Altenbernd agreed that Terri Schiavo's options are a miracle or death:

    …the difficult question that faced the trial court [Judge Greer in 2000] was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after 10 years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. (Quote source: Fight-for-life bombshell: Woman 'trying to talk'!--World Net Daily) [bold emphasis added]

    This is exactly the way Scientology would have it L. Ron Hubbard wrote about organisms (people) needing to win. If they do not win, he believed they would move in the direction of loss [death]:

    The goal is to win. When one has lost too much and too many times, the possibility of winning seems to remote to try. And it loses. It becomes so accustomed to loss that it begins to concentrate on loss instead of forward advance.

    (Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard pg. 41)

    Scientology, which has an integral role in the New World Order network, believes that able producers should not mix with the disabled (which they classify as nonproducers.) They believe that contrasurvival entities (disabled and terminally ill people) should be destroyed:

    An individual, family, a group best survives, of course, when prosurvival entities are in proximity and available and when contrasurvival entities are absent. The struggle of life could be said to be the procurement of prosurvival factors and the annihilation, destruction, banishment of contrasurvival factors.

    (Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard pgs. 176-177)"


    More Quotes From Xenu's Best Friend

    "According to Hubbard, human beings who rank lower than 2.0 on the emotional tone scale should be either processed enough [audited] or quarantined from society!

    "The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough ... or simply quarantining them from the society."

    (Science of Survival, by L. Ron Hubbard pg 173)

    Hubbard's rationale for teaching his followers to reject the disabled is as follows:

    "The only answers would seem to be the permanent quarantine of such persons from society to avoid the contagion of their insanities and the general turbulence which they bring into any order."

    (Science of Survival, by L. Ron Hubbard pg 145)

    Hubbard's directive to treat an "insane person" [2.0 and lower on the tone scale] as a social contagion is a plausible explanation for the shameful abuse of Terri Schindler Schiavo and the denial of her rights as a citizen of the United States as well as the denial of protections afforded her in The Americans with Disabilities Act. Terri has been confined to a single hospice room for four years and unlawfully denied any form of therapy for over ten years!

    Florida law, which mandates rehabilitation, is at odds with Scientology. At this time, Scientology doctrine, which requires that Terri Schiavo be isolated from society, is being upheld in the Clearwater courts."

    Judge Greer: Scientologist

    "The Clearwater Bar Association is delighted with Judge Greer's performance in this particular case. They presented the John U. Bird award to the Pinellas-Pasco Circuit judge on May 15, 2004. This prestigious award, which is the Clearwater bar's highest honor for a judge, was granted to Judge Greer for the way he has handled himself while overseeing the Terri Schiavo case!

    Robert Dickinson III, the outgoing president of the Clearwater Bar Association, cited Judge Greer's handling of the Terri Schiavo case in terms of "passing the test":

    "Rarely is a person's mettle and faith tested in such a strenuous and public way as this gentleman's has been over the last few years," Robert Dickinson III said. "Rarely do mortals pass the test with such flying colors."

    (Quote source: Lawyers laud judge in Schiavo case) [bold emphasis added]

    I find these words rather ominous when I reflect on "the test" Judge Greer has been passing—all these years. Judge Greer's consistent practice of upholding Scientology doctrines over and above Florida law is being lauded by the Clearwater Bar Association! The "test" Robert Dickenson III is alluding to is the "test case." The euthanasia test case.

    Greer is "passing the test" with flying colors because he is permitting Michael Schiavo to abuse, exploit and neglect his disabled wife in defiance of the Florida statues. And the Clearwater Bar Association cheers.

    Scientology attorney Wally Pope—who represented his "church" in the Lisa McPherson case—was the individual selected to bestow this high honor on Judge Greer! Wally cited high ideals, personal character, and judicial competence:

    "Yet, in the teeth of all that, he has steadfastly demonstrated exactly what the John U. Bird award was created to honor: high ideals, personal character, judicial competence and service," lawyer Wally Pope said before bestowing the honor.

    (Quote source: Lawyers laud judge in Schiavo case) [bold emphasis added]

    The "judicial competence" that Judge Greer has exhibited in his handling of the Terri Schiavo case is clearly the kind that ignores evidence and even Florida statutes in order to uphold Scientology doctrine—which requires the deletion of "social contagions" (the disabled) from society. It is no coincidence that a Scientology attorney—who was a lead attorney in the Lisa McPherson case—personally bestowed this award to Judge Greer. Greer's decisions to consistently rule in favor of terminating a disabled person do reflect high ideals—in the sight of Scientology.

    The Clearwater Bar Association: Cozy with Scientology

    Mike Faehner, who was president-elect of the Clearwater Bar Association in 2001, endorsed the Johnson Blakely Pope Bokor Ruppel & Burns PA. firm:

    "In the legal community, they have a good reputation," said Mike Faehner, president-elect of the Clearwater Bar Association. "They do quite a bit of legal educational outreach. They're a solid law firm."

    (Quote source: Clearwater firm breaks from standing tradition)

    This firm brings in a lot of money by litigating for the "Church" of Scientology:

    Their clients include parents involved in a baby swap, a woman who was not allowed to dress after she was arrested for skinny-dipping, the controversial Church of Scientology and developers who have changed the landscape of Clearwater.

    (Quote source: Clearwater firm breaks from standing tradition) [bold emphasis added]

    It is probable that Scientology attorneys are on the board and/or are officers of the Clearwater Bar Association! Mike Faehner said:

    Many Johnson Blakely lawyers have been board members or officers in the association. The firm also sponsors bar activities, he said.

    It is becoming increasingly clear that the Clearwater Bar Association is on cozy terms with the "Church" of Scientology. They choose to have their monthly meetings at the Fort Harrison Hotel—Scientology headquarters. (See: Res Ipsa Loquitur) The Clearwater bar gladly endorses firms that litigate for Scientology. They even chose a Scientology attorney to present an award to Judge Greer for "passing the test" in the way he handled the Terri Schiavo case.

    Scientology For Euthanasia; Florida Law Against it

    Wally Pope represented the "Church" of Scientology in the wrongful death suit filed by the Estate of Lisa McPherson. He fought to enable Scientology to completely get away with dehydrating Lisa McPherson to death. They did not succeed. They settled with the Lisa McPherson Trust!

    Judge Greer's rulings have enabled Michael Schiavo (working on behalf of the Scientology agenda) to almost get away with dehydrating Terri Schiavo to death. The only reason this did not happen is because many Americans—once they saw the videos of Terri that Mr. Schindler bravely released to the media—made it known they would not stand for such evil in our society.

    It is time to take a stand against this barbarism once again. Disabled citizens of the United States of America (including Terri Schindler Schiavo of Clearwater, Florida) must not be denied therapy and even life itself due to L. Ron Hubbard's disgust over the fact that a decent society takes care of its own:

    Society, the bulk of which is bent upon survival, fails or refuses to recognize death or the urge of organisms toward it. Society passes laws against murder and suicide. Society provides hospitals. Society carries such people [the disabled] on its back. And society will not hear of euthanasia or "mercy killing." (Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard; pg. 28)"
     
    528Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 06:55
    They can't get enuff money from my e-mail addy to please me.

    definitely, seeing more and more that it's the Schindlers who are motivated by greed...from the moment they cut off ties with their son-in-law because he put money won in a lawsuit toward his wife, and not their house/car/fur coat/etc, they became enraged...

    so, how much money are they making off of their dying daughter by selling this list? disgusting...

     
    529leggestand
          Leader
          ID: 451036518
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 08:57
    Anyone watch South Park last night?
     
    530Pancho Villa
          Sustainer
          ID: 533817
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 10:22
    Looks like the ordeal is over. Terri reported dead. No need for a link, is there?
     
    531Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 10:22
    Terri Schiavo has died
     
    532sarge33rd
          ID: 562251410
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 10:30
    may she rest in peace
     
    533j o s h
          ID: 242203010
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 10:42
    She put up a hell of a battle.
     
    534Myboyjack
          Dude
          ID: 014826271
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 10:44
    Perhaps some of the end of life issues that her case raised can be discussed rationally.
     
    535sarge33rd
          ID: 34251187
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 10:51
    rational discourse MBJ, is long overdue.
     
    536katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:08
    Rational yes, but here?

    All kidding aside, if we can avoid the conspiracy theories then rationality may reign.

     
    537Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:12
    Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you.

    The expected average lifespan of everyone reading this board just dropped five years.
     
    538sarge33rd
          ID: 562251410
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:22
    actuarial evidence Baldwin. do you have it, or are you fear mongering?

    statements w/o the backing of factual evidence, is exactly what we need to move away from making. until that is done, rationality will be little more than a dream.
     
    539Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:37
    What are you still doing here? The "B/tch is Dead" wingding is reving up at Michael's house and all sick bastards are invited.
     
    540Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:43
    Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you.

    The expected average lifespan of everyone reading this board just dropped five years.

    What are you still doing here? The "B/tch is Dead" wingding is reving up at Michael's house and all sick bastards are invited.


    MBJ - so much for your request, eh? i have finally found the antonym of rational, and it is Baldwin.
     
    541Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:49
    Her life provided 19 years of kicking the hell out of Ron L Hubbard's theory the disabled "want" to die, are moving towards death deliberately. She fought as hard as any warrior could be expected to and then some.
     
    542Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:54
    i think this whole case is exactly why people, myself included, should get off their asses and have a living will done up.

    i think the people who make Terri Schiavo out to be a martyr are fools. the was an ordinary woman who decided to not live as a vegetable if such a terrible thing should happen to her. she told her husband, the man she trusted the most, of her beliefs

    sadly, people instead chose to disparage the man and make false accusations.

    that's what really sucks about this. i saw true human nature, and what people will do to another because they don't believe as they do.

    i saw people use religion as a crutch to lean on an, and a billy club to bash with.

    no one won here, despite what your confused and clouded mind might thing. everyone lost, beginning with basic human dignity.
     
    543katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 11:55
    Once again...there is no rationality in Baldwin's world.

    Sometimes I just hate it when I'm right. :-(
     
    544Sludge
          ID: 54692111
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:06
    she told her husband, the man she trusted the most, of her beliefs

    sadly, people instead chose to disparage the man and make false accusations.


    You don't know that, and neither do I. Did you ever bother to think that the reason this stayed in the courts as long as it did was exactly because her wishes weren't entirely as clear-cut as you and Baldwin are making them out to be? And how do you know the accusations are false? I have no friggin' clue as to the veracity of any of them, so I have neither demonized him (as Baldwin has) nor held him up as a hero (as you have); neither here, nor in my mind. The one thing that I'm sure of for both sides of this argument, however, is that this isn't about what Terri wanted, although it's dressed up in that clothing and people are certainly convinced of that. There is nobody on Earth who knows what Terri wanted that has any solid and convincing evidence to back it up. This is about what Michael Sciavo wanted versus what Terri's parents wanted.
     
    545walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:23
    Probably right Sludge, and I don't think too many here would disagree with your concluding sentence. However, given that we all will never know what Ms. Schiavo really wanted, and it came down to what Michael wanted vs. her parents, how is such a dispute to be settled? By Michael's preferences (allegedly via Ms. Schiavo) or by whichever potential guardian is willing to take on the caretaking responsibilities?

    - walk
     
    547Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:25
    she told her husband, the man she trusted the most, of her beliefs

    i have no reason to doubt her husband. this is the man she chose to marry and grow old with. you can go through life thinking everyone is a liar, or you can go through life believing deep down, with faith, the good in man.

    i choose the latter.

    sadly, people instead chose to disparage the man and make false accusations.

    did not say "everyone" - i said "people". don't take it so personally.

    nor did i hold her husband up as a hero, rather as a man who wanted to do nothing more than uphold his wife's wishes.
     
    548Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:26
    The last time the Schindlers brought charges of attempted murder against Michael they were told the statute of limitations for attempted murder had been reached.

    If there is any justice this side of God's Kingdom, Michael has just removed that shield himself and will now be tried for murder.
     
    549Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:33
    The last time the Schindlers brought charges of attempted murder against Michael they were told the statute of limitations for attempted murder had been reached.

    If there is any justice this side of God's Kingdom, Michael has just removed that shield himself and will now be tried for murder.


    baldwin - if he were tried, and found innocent, would that change your mind?
     
    550Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:35
    Not if it was tried in Pinellas county.
     
    551Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:36
    As if OJ's trial settled anything.
     
    552j o s h
          ID: 27203111
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:44
    549-baldwin - if he were tried, and found innocent, would that change your mind?

    seems unlikely, oj was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.

    my thoughts regarding Michael...at the very least he's as selfish as as the parents were made out to be in this case.
     
    553Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:51
    i guess that's my whole point Baldwin. nothing would change your mind. you've already decided that Michael Schiavo, working as an agent of Satan, Aliens, and The Church of Scientology, killed Terri Schiavo, because she was secretly carrying the child that would eventually bring about the end of the human existance, both on the physical plane, and every spiritual plane as well.

    the spirt of the baby couldn't be killed though. see, this baby's spirit started out inside of Sharon Tate. eventually the spirit found its way to Cherica Adams, to Lacey Peterson, to Lori Hacking.

    along the way though, this baby's spirit resided in Terri Schiavo, so she had to be killed.

    one can only wonder where the spirit of the baby resides now!!!!!!!! bwhahahahahahahaah!
     
    554Sludge
          ID: 54692111
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:54
    i have no reason to doubt her husband. this is the man she chose to marry and grow old with. you can go through life thinking everyone is a liar, or you can go through life believing deep down, with faith, the good in man.

    i choose the latter.


    There is a very good reason that the first suspect in just about any murder case of a married woman is the husband. Keep living in your gingerbread houses with their candy cane light posts and peppermint paved streets.

    Or even better yet, take a step back and look at the glaring hypocrisy in your postings here for the past two years compared to your postings in the threads on this topic. People are only good at heart when you agree with them or they mesh with your politics, Tree.
     
    555katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:57
    Baldwin, throughout this entire ordeal, you have disparaged Michael, the county law enforcement, judges, doctors, ad infinitum.

    You have called them liars, theives, evil, murderers, etc.

    All this without being present at any of the hearings, seeing any of the videos firsthand, talking to either side-just blogs, newspaper articles (which of course just couldn't be the least bit biased one way or the other), and rumor mongering.

    I'm beginning to wonder more and more just exactly what your particular brand of Christianity teaches. I seem to remember "judge not, lest ye be judged."

    Maybe that got left out of your Bible when it was being printed & collated at the printer?

     
    556katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 12:59
    Of course I'm wating to be called evil, a scientoligist or whatever. After all, I called you on your beliefs so I must be an evil-doer.
     
    557Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:03
    #548...if there was any evidence of harm done to her...it's evident it became one's word against anothers, and no more...that doesn't hold up in court...Marriage is a promise to God...probably the only one people make to in their life ...and easily broken...Her husband didn't break it...though the whole world was against him...but don't we all know that some people will go to the ends of the earth to protect their lies...if he's been lying...he might get away with it in this life...but not the next...how many of us are going to be standing before the gates of God...expecting to get in? Terri has died...what I learned from her silent voice is...to get down on my knees more...
     
    558Sludge
          ID: 54692111
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:05
    Her husband didn't break it

    Not legally, no.
     
    559Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:09
    Katietx... honesty is a virtue...hold it dear most people don't have it...don't let anyone take it away...it's as good as believing...you've got it girl!!!
     
    560Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:12
    Judy

    While you are at it you might rethink all that, "I want to be good at being bad" stuff too. *wink* 8]
     
    561Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:18
    Katie

    If I were to judge you unredeemable, that would be a serious problem for me. If I see clear and convincing evidence you just killed Sarge, I am not required to turn off my brain and pretend like there was a 50/50 chance you were innocent.
     
    562Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:20
    I was asked once after a nasty post I did here what is moral character...it is a place you set at the table for yourself...Katie...I would guess your table is very nice...and just for the asking...what do you base your ideas on???...I know what colors...if I may say...The beauty of your heart...the colors of your mind...knowing the littlest details are seen...but don't matter...am I wrong??? Say so if I am...all will be OK!
     
    563CCP On Lunch Finally
          ID: 11014112
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:22
    Baldwin seems to be getting a lot of uncalled for flack on this issue. Especially when someone says something akin to Katie's thesis in #555...

    "You have called them liars, theives, evil, murderers, etc.

    All this without being present at any of the hearings, seeing any of the videos firsthand, talking to either side-just blogs, newspaper articles (which of course just couldn't be the least bit biased one way or the other), and rumor mongering."

    Does this mean then that when the liberal mAsses get a hold of an issue or topic that in order to argue a point they must be present for every single briefing, interview, etc. etc. etc.?

    If you want to hold Baldwin to that standard that's fine, but the stench of hypocrisy coming from the left-wingers on this board is stronger than that of a tuna sandwich found stuck in Roseanne Barr's pantyhose.

    I seem to remember a lot of people (Tree, Sarge, probably Katie on the bandwagon, ad nauseum)falsely calling Bush a liar and murderer. Were any of you present at all the military briefings, Senate hearings, political debates or meetings that Bush was?

    Hypocrisy at its lowest and I'll bet most of you are still wondering why the left is teetering on the brink of extinction.
     
    564Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:27
    Baldwin you just proved how sick you are...You cannot pretend you have never seen what is evident...they are so honest about love ..you are as jealous as I am...You stupid b-------....Why would you try to destroy goodness...there is no purpose in it...
     
    565katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:34
    If I see clear and convincing evidence

    How can you see clear and convincing evidence when you aren't able to view the evidence first hand? You can't. You are simply taking the words of those who believe for some reason that Michael abused Terri. I have absolutely no firsthand knowledge that he did or didn't. Neither do you.

    Do I think the possibility is there. Yes. But I don't have clear and convincing evidence of the fact.

    Do I think that Scott Peterson killed his wife and baby? Yes. Again, I don't have clear and convincing evidence to that fact because I wasn't sitting the court room.

    These are simply my opinions, nothing more.

    Everyone is redeemable, even the most vile. Redeemable only in their hearts. Whether I think someone is redeemable in the eyes of God or not is a moot point. Its not up to me to decide.

    Judy, I base my ideas on my faith and belief that there is at least a spot of good in everyone, its just up to them to find it. Some do, some don't. Some judge others based on their religion (or lack thereof), color, sex etc.
    While I may not believe in their choices for life, we all do have free will and at some point in the universe we will answer for our lives.

    Terri is answering for hers, Michael will answer for his. It is simply not up to me to decide what will happen in the end. I can only live my life and try my best to not judge others in the way they live theirs.
     
    566Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:34
    Forgive me...I know this thread is meant for the goodness to be delieverd to Terri...I am sorry for my outburst...Baldwin I have to quit thinking ... do so yourself...is there any understanding...everyone else ...well they matter more...ourselves last...
     
    567katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:36
    CCP on Drugs -

    probably Katie on the bandwagon, ad nauseum)falsely calling Bush a liar and murderer.

    ROFL - never once - if I did - find it - prove it.

    Eat your lunch - don't type.
     
    568katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:37
    "You have called them liars, theives, evil, murderers, etc.

    He did...do I have to search all the threads to repost? Obviously you haven't read them all, either in this EII or the original.
     
    569Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:40
    I seem to remember a lot of people (Tree, Sarge, probably Katie on the bandwagon, ad nauseum)falsely calling Bush a liar and murderer. Were any of you present at all the military briefings, Senate hearings, political debates or meetings that Bush was?

    nothing false about it kid. feel free to read the WMD report that came out today.

    i besides myself in giggle fits to see you lumping Katie - our mary matlin to Sarge's James Carville - with all us liberals.

    i am also beside myself in giggle fits with you calling katie a bandwagon jumper. i've never seen a bigger bandwagon jumper than you my friend - perhaps a more appropriate name for you would be Baldwin's Cod Piece?
     
    570Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:41
    Baldwin I will ignore all of your post from now on...Knowing that the devil wears many disquises...you see I read my bible...and if you did...judgement lyes ? (forgive my spelling) within God's hands and not ours...
     
    571katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:42
    OMG! I just spit water thru my nose.

    Thank you Tree.

    *going to get paper towels*
     
    572Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:46
    teetering on the brink of extinction

    Some imagine they are going to springboard off this poor woman's corpse like a phoenix. 8]

    Thanks for the support CCP.

    Someone needed to open a window...eeewww...the culture of death crowd in here.

    Perhaps Sox, Tree and Sarge were trying out for a new Job.

    If so they probably weren't grim enuff about it.

     
    573Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:47
    Baldwin...humanity matters... it has or has to be a part of the plan...God has never deserted this world...
     
    574Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:49
    Judy if I didn't fully believe God is the judge, jury and executioner I might be driving to Florida right now.
     
    575CCP On Lunch Finally
          ID: 11014112
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:50
    Katie: Take your meds. I never said Baldwin didn't say those things.

    What I find amazingly stupid coming from you (surprise) is the standard to which you hold him to?

    Did you demand that your husband, Sarge, be present at every meeting/speech/hearing related to the Iraq War before he gave his opinion and started criticizing?

     
    576Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 13:51
    # 569...share it with me!!!!
     
    577katietx
          ID: 39253110
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 14:19
    Katie: Take your meds. I never said Baldwin didn't say those things.

    What I find amazingly stupid coming from you (surprise) is the standard to which you hold him to?

    Did you demand that your husband, Sarge, be present at every meeting/speech/hearing related to the Iraq War before he gave his opinion and started criticizing?




    Ok, then...did your sandwich post this?

    Baldwin seems to be getting a lot of uncalled for flack on this issue. Especially when someone says something akin to Katie's thesis in #555...

    "You have called them liars, theives, evil, murderers, etc.


    Uncalled for flack? So its okay for him to give me, Tree, sarge, whomever flack...but he's not big enough to take it in reverse? He has such a champion in you CCP.

    Sarge and I are on absolute opposite ends of the pole politically. We have had many a heated discussion regarding Bush, the war, capital punishment, religion, etc. I have called him out not here, but in our face-to-face discussion. Not that it is any freakin' business of yours, but just so you know that I do hold him accountable for his views, as he does me.


     
    578Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 14:22
    Judy - Report: Iraq intelligence 'dead wrong'

    Baldwin - as long as we're doing silly little pictures, i'd like to offer one up of you, in all your rediculous histrionics.



    i mean come on - show me one post where someone here seriously said "hooray! she's dying!!!"

    on the whole, i'd rather her not have to have gone through this.

    on the reality, you disgust me more and more every day, and your brand of christianity is truly scary - you're the type of christian that other christians should fear - because you do very little to show yourself as a forgiving, kind, compassionate man.

    you come across as a stark raving mad loon, and any christian i know would disassociate themselves from you and your brand of fanaticism as quickly as possible.
     
    579sarge33rd
          ID: 34251187
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 14:44
    having read this thread over the past days and seeing the dribble continuing to spill forth, I am apalled. Cant we simply acknowledge that it as a damn shame T Schiavo suffered from anorxia? Thats its a damn shame she abused her body to the point where she went into a virtual catatonic state and suffered severe brain damage? That its damn shame this damage fueled a blood-feud amongst her family? That its damn shame she died? That its a damn shame that the person Terri Schiavvo, died long ago?

    Is it too much to ask, that we simply set aside our political/religious diffrences for one day, and lament the passing of a woman who touched American society in a way I am fairly certain she never intended.

    And the risk of repeating myself....


    may she rest in peace.
     
    580Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 14:47
    Bush Says Schiavo's Death Saddens Millions

    this headline seems like something from The Onion, because no $hit Sherlock, i would imagine most people on the planet would be saddened by her passing.

    then i read these lines, and they frighten me:
    WASHINGTON - President Bush on Thursday urged the country to honor Terri Schiavo's memory by working to "build a culture of life" while House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said "the men responsible for this" will be called to account.

    Bush - culture of life? hmmm...death penalty much? invasion of soverign nation much?

    DeLay - sounds like he's calling for a new holy war.

    truly scary stuff...
     
    581walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 16:43
    Or how about this perspective, nearly 1,000 posts here about Schiavo while according to "breaking news at CNN.com" the pope has just been given last rites. Media coverage of Terri Schiavo (not your fault, Ms. Schiavo)...the pope.

    Glad I'm an atheist.

    (sorry, black humor) - walk
     
    582walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 17:00
    Pope gets last rites
     
    583Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 17:52
    damn. killed by a urinary tract infection. that sucks. God really is one dark bastard...
     
    584Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 19:42
    In the Name of Politics By JOHN C. DANFORTH
     
    585Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 22:27
    His article is total BS.
    They argue that such cells are human life that must be protected, by threat of criminal prosecution, from promising research on diseases like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and juvenile diabetes.

    It is not evident to many of us that cells in a petri dish are equivalent to identifiable people suffering from terrible diseases. I am and have always been pro-life. But the only explanation for legislators comparing cells in a petri dish to babies in the womb is the extension of religious doctrine into statutory law.
    No one with any sense argues that human cells in a petri dish are a person with rights. That is a total straw man he invented to demonize christians.

    The objection is to harvesting babies for stem cells. There is no reason whatsoever to do that. Everyone has stem cells and they can be experimented with all day long and have my full support. Here, take some of my stem cells, Danforth. But he is not really interested in stem cell research. He is into demonizing the religious.

     
    586Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 22:40
    No one with any sense argues that human cells in a petri dish 2 month old fetuses are a person with rights.
     
    587Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Mar 31, 2005, 23:01
    No, we've learned we need to ask George Felos if we qualify as persons.

    *willies* I need to go shower after forming those words that are becoming true.
     
    588Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Fri, Apr 01, 2005, 03:19
    #578.. I know that Bush is passing out blame right now...and Baldwin I am NOT good at being bad...I have to much of a concience...I have done alot of wrong lately...that was something...a remark, I applied to to myself, it's really about whether you really know someone...some people are good at being bad...someone full of secrets...that's not me...secret lives...but anyway tonight I watched Nightline with my 14 yearold...about Terri...she asked me to promise never to let her "be" like that...I said "live like that" she said that's not living,I don't ever want to be like that...I pray I will never have to make that choice...because a promise is a promise...
     
    589Judy
          ID: 36235269
          Fri, Apr 01, 2005, 03:23
    Tree...where the hell did you find that picture of me?
     
    590Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Fri, Apr 01, 2005, 04:32
    Just another article making the point earlier that living wills are a trap that could see you dehydrated to death. Even if you are at the time begging for food and water like Marjorie Nighbert was.

    Both Living wills and power of attorney can get you dehydrated to death as Marjorie's case involved her brother who was given power of attorney deliberately starving/dehydrating her to death against her express stated wishes at the time of her murder.

    Better get a lawyer to exclude dehydration/starvation if you don't want to be tortured to death.
     
    591Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Fri, Apr 01, 2005, 07:23
    1. move to oregon, where you have a choice to not be "starved to death"

    2. live like an eggplant.

    3. Judy's daughter definitely has a bit more common sense than you Baldwin. i wouldn't want to "live" as Terri Schiavo lived the last 15 years of her life, and i'd gladly go on a two-week fast where i couldn't feel pain anyway to avoid being some kind of prop for the Religious Terrorists that are trying to take over this country...
     
    592sarge33rd
          ID: 562251410
          Fri, Apr 01, 2005, 12:16
    not politicized?

    GOP Leaders vow to "hold courts accountable" for Schiavo decisions
     
    593Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Fri, Apr 01, 2005, 12:54
    will someone please remove Tom DeLay's feeding tube? it's pretty clear he's already brain dead.
     
    595Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Fri, Apr 01, 2005, 21:41

    St. Petersburg Times
    Mar. 6, 2001
    "A few years ago, the Scientologists marched around the Clearwater Police Department chanting angry slogans at Chief Sid Klein. Now a judge accuses the department of being 'dangerously close to becoming a private security force for the Church of Scientology.'

    "Now, we come to understand that Scientology has more than 100 spy cameras in downtown Clearwater. Judge Thomas Penick, the great invasion is over; this is occupation time. Maybe we should hire a city psychiatrist instead of a city manager. Seems to me the city is a little bipolar."
    Which explains why they can't be trusted to protect anyone from them.

    And the judges and the lawyers, are wholly owned subsidiaries.

    I expect Pinellas County to be for death and estate stripping, what Las Vegas is to gambling. If anyone in the power structure isn't on the payroll of or members of the scientology, then they are board members of hospices.
     
    596Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 05:08
    Lecturing the culture of life crowd over Terri, this culture of death apologist writes this line...
    So why not make a virtue out of necessity? Why not embrace the conflict as a sign of a healthy, creative diversity in society? We trust that people who have their basic human needs met can learn to get along reasonably. The problem is not human nature. It’s a society with skewed priorities that denies so many people their basic needs.
    How does someone go from 'let's starve Terri to death' to writing that paragraph? How are you supposed to have an intelligent discussion with someone that stupid?

    Let me finish off that paragraph logically. Conversely when you start making lists of who can have a cup of water and who must dehydrate to death, you've just thrown reasonableness out the window. Who the hell are you to lecture society about denying basic needs?

     
    598Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 08:23
    How does someone go from 'let's starve Terri to death' to writing that paragraph? How are you supposed to have an intelligent discussion with someone that stupid?

    i'm sure people say the same thing about you Baldwin - you have an absolute inability to see the other side, even in a remote "i can understand how they might feel that way."

    to many of us, it's a freedom of choice issue.

    Let me finish off that paragraph logically. Conversely when you start making lists of who can have a cup of water and who must dehydrate to death, you've just thrown reasonableness out the window. Who the hell are you to lecture society about denying basic needs?

    she wouldn't have had to go out that way if she lived in Oregon...
     
    599katietx
          ID: 2533427
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 08:37
    Who the hell are you to lecture society about denying basic needs?

    Take out the "denying" and look in the mirror Baldwin. You do it all the time.
     
    600Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 08:39
    you have an absolute inability to see the other side, even in a remote "i can understand how they might feel that way."

    When the other side is basing their entire crusade to kill someone based on the word of a guardian who lovingly says, "when is that b/tch ever gonna die", and whose wife just ended up half strangled to death the day he learned she was gonna divorce his control freak abusive butt there really isn't a logical case over there. There's some other motivation. In the case of some on the right it's complete ignorance of the facts of the case, reliance on euthanasia push-polls done by the MSM, and irritation big government got involved momentarily.

    We didn't leave any right wing person ignorant of the facts and there weren't any right wingers in the "let's starve Terri" camp in here.

    In the case of the left, it was just a case of people so desperate for a win they were willing to sacrifice an innocent woman on the altar of their petty vindictiveness, combined with a lack of respect for human life that truly does believe some people are unpersons.
     
    602Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 08:45
    Or maybe some are so convinced that they would want to die in that circumstance they refuse to look at the incriminating circumstances and make a correct evaluation of the odds she would have told anyone she wanted to die in these circumstances.
     
    603sarge33rd
          ID: 582341722
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 10:26
    A) no "crusade" was launched. (except by the Republican Congress)
    B) no one was out to "kill" anyone.
    C) You have no evidence to backup your claim of attempted strangulation by M Schiavo.

    Your entire case Baldwin, is conjecture, blind rage and false conclusions.

    In post 14, you refer to "the nazi doctrine of euthanasia". The nazis had no such doctrine. They practiced genocide vs a singular religious group. This is not the same thing as euthanasia.

    In post 27, you applaud FL DCS, yet we alal here know your real attitude toward social services and social workers. Feeling a bit two-faced that day were you?

    Post 47, you draw the wrong conclusion IMO, from the right premise. Does Terri wnat her parents going thru this? Of course not. But it isnt "the wife abuser" who is putting them through it. They are, by their own inability to let go.

    In post 111, you speculate that "overwhelming circustantial" evidence exists to contradict M Schiavos statements re Terri's wishes. No there isnt. lol There is more specualtion, mere conjecture and hypothesis galore. But evidence? None.

    In post 138, you point out that no neurological exam has been done over the past 3 years. So what How many were done n the first 12 years of her condition? Any changes? Nerves do not regenerate. Once gone, they are gone forever. After the first 2 or 3 such scans, further scans would serve only to line the pockets of the faciltiy and physicians ordering the continued repetition of the same test. You then go on to specualte that A) Terris cortex is still largely oresent (when all confirmed testing says otherwise) and B) the brain can "rewire" itself. No Baldwin, it cannot. Again, nerve endings do not regenerate. Once the "transit system" used by nerve endings to transmit pulses is gone....its a road that remains close forever. Current medical technology is simply not there yet. If it were, Christopher Reeves for ex, would have been up and walking.

    There are so many more glaring erroneous, though self serving, errors in your recent posts Baldwin. One hardly has to look very hard to find them. I simply dont have the time to dig through them all for you.

    Suffice to say, you're wrong on this one. Entirely, totally, 100%.....w-r-o-n-g.
     
    604Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 10:28
    When the other side is basing their entire crusade to kill someone based on the word of a guardian who lovingly says, "when is that b/tch ever gonna die", and whose wife just ended up half strangled to death the day he learned she was gonna divorce his control freak abusive butt there really isn't a logical case over there. There's some other motivation. In the case of some on the right it's complete ignorance of the facts of the case, reliance on euthanasia push-polls done by the MSM, and irritation big government got involved momentarily.

    everything you've said is completely baseless.

    she wasn't half-strangled to death. she wasn't going to divorce him. etc etc etc

    the problem here is that even when the autopsy results come out, and there is no proof of abuse, you won't believe it.

    you are a bitter, angry, man without much of a grasp on reality.

    the simple fact that you call people who believe differently than you things like "murderers" and "let's starve terri camp" show me how little you understand about the situation. it also shows me how ignorant you are in accepting different beliefs.

    this was not about vindictivness on the part of the left, this was not about sacrifice.

    you truly cannot grasp anything other than black and white, can you?
     
    605katietx
          ID: 2533427
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 10:44
    shows me how ignorant you are in accepting different beliefs.

    Duh! Hasn't this been proven time and time again on these boards?

    Not spectulation, conspiracy theory, conjecture, guessing, fact bending......

    Proven

     
    606Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 11:05
    You take the word of...

    1) a man who clearly fits the profile of an abuser, who calls his wife a b/itch, who didn't 'remember' his wife wanted to die until it was worth a million bucks to him

    2) his close blood relatives who cover for him, that's never happened for a murderer...ahuh

    3) the judgement of county officials wholly owned by the church of euthanasia/scientology and who all own an interest in hospices

    4 Cransford's testimony who makes his living testifying for euthanasia and who is member and featured speaker at the Hemlock society.

    5) Cransford's friend dr Peter Bambakidis who was appointed when the first four doctors were tied. Cransford should have been disqualified originally given his pro-euthanasia bias. The man wants all disabled people euthanized. There never should have been a tie-breaker needed.



    over

    1) Terri herself when she exploded in rage at the suggestion Ann Quinlan should have had her plug pulled.

    2) Terri herself when you consider her religious beliefs.

    3) Terri herself when you consider how hard she fought to live.

    4) Terri herself when you look at videos of her responsiveness and the way she responded to her mother.

    5) Terri herself when you consider her bonescans that show massive abuse. Broken femur and pelvis, etc. Bones that are almost impossible to break without a great deal of abuse.

    6) Terri's neck injuries that were clearly consistant with strangulation.

    7) Several of Terri's best friends who testified Terri was planning on divorce and moving out the
    day before she collapsed and had just had a huge fight with Michael that day.

    8) Terri's other two original doctors in the original court case who testified she wasn't PVS.

    9-15) Terri's nurses who said she spoke.

    16-66) 50 doctors who were willing to testify she wasn't PVS.

    67~77) Terri's blood relatives who said she was responsive with them and who obviously love her more than Michael.

    Any rational man can do the math.
     
    607katietx
          ID: 13310210
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 11:25
    Terri herself when you consider her religious beliefs.

    Wasn't she Catholic? Even the Pope denied heroic measures (including the feeding tube-requested it be removed).

    I'm pretty sure this was asked before...ignored, but asked.

     
    608Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 11:34
    1) a man who clearly fits the profile of an abuser, who calls his wife a b/itch, who didn't 'remember' his wife wanted to die until it was worth a million bucks to him

    Baldwin - based on your actions and words here, YOU fit the profile of an abuser. beat your wife much?

    kind of interesting that you're suggesting they should have just let her die without trying to see if she would get better first.

    sounds to me like you're espousing not only denying women their rights, but their lives as well.

    2) his close blood relatives who cover for him, that's never happened for a murderer...ahuh

    again, no proof.

    3) the judgement of county officials wholly owned by the church of euthanasia/scientology and who all own an interest in hospices

    sorry you don't like the laws of the land. instead of spamming a message board, get active and do something about it.

    4 Cransford's testimony who makes his living testifying for euthanasia and who is member and featured speaker at the Hemlock society.

    at this point, most of your issues with various people have been discredited countless times. but you're too ignorant, or too stupid, to accept that.

    5) Cransford's friend dr Peter Bambakidis who was appointed when the first four doctors were tied. Cransford should have been disqualified originally given his pro-euthanasia bias. The man wants all disabled people euthanized. There never should have been a tie-breaker needed.

    see above.

    Baldwin, you've got nothing but hearsay and over-inflated opinions of yourself...
     
    609sarge33rd
          ID: 322471717
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 12:12
    re 606;

    Pt1...Terri made the comment when she was 19. She went into the catatonic state, at age 26. How many of your own personal ideals changed during those same 7 trs between the ages of 19 and 26? It is clearly possible that hers changed n this arena as well.

    pt 2: She was essentially catatonic for 15 years. What beliefs would those be?

    pt 3: ? You mean how hard her parents fought to keep a carcass "alive"?

    pt 4: Why not? You blindly take the word of 50 *ahem cough* Doctors who are neither board certified nor had ever exained Terri or her medical records.

    pt 5: The autopsy is complete. Those scans oyu reference Baldwin...when did you see them? When did you become certified to read and interpret them?

    pt 6: see pt 5

    pt 7: no bias there huh?

    pt 8: are they certified in the diagnosis and treatment of pvs? no? I didnt think so.

    pt 9: ...

    aw hell, this is getting as tiresome as it is boring.
     
    610Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 12:29
    (including the feeding tube-requested it be removed).

    I'm pretty sure this was asked before...ignored, but asked.
    - Katie

    Ridiculous.
    On March 20, speaking to participants in an international congress on the " vegetative" state, Pope John Paul II profoundly changed the worldwide debate on how to respond to this condition. He issued the first clear and explicit papal statement on the obligation to provide food and water for patients in a " persistent vegetative state" (PVS).

    With the Pope's statement, the Church's teaching authority has rejected each aspect of the theory that opposes assisted feeding for patients in a PVS. The Pope's speech marks a new chapter in the Catholic contribution to efforts against euthanasia by omission.

    As of March 20 this is no longer the case. In his speech the Holy Father rejected each aspect of the theory that opposes assisted feeding for patients in a PVS. He said:

    1. No living human being ever descends to the status of a "vegetable" or an animal. "Even our brothers and sisters who find themselves in the clinical condition of a 'vegetative state' retain their human dignity in all its fullness," he said. "The loving gaze of God the Father continues to fall upon them, acknowledging them as his sons and daughters, especially in need of help." Against a "quality of life" ethic that makes discriminatory judgments about the worthiness of different peoples lives, the Church insists that "the value of a man's life cannot be made subordinate to any judgment of its quality expressed by other men."

    2. Because this life has inherent dignity, regardless of its visible "quality," it calls out to us for the normal care owed to all helpless patients - - and in principle, food and fluids (even if medically assisted) are part of that normal care. Such feeding is "a natural means of preserving life, not a medical act"- - meaning, among other things, that the key question is simply whether this means effectively provides nourishment and preserves life, not whether it can reverse the illness.

    3. This judgment does not change when the "vegetative" state is diagnosed as "persistent" or unlikely to change: "The evaluation of probabilities, founded on waning hopes for recovery when the vegetative state is prolonged beyond a year, cannot ethically justify the cessation or interruption of minimal care for the patient, including nutrition and hydration."

    4. Deliberate removal of such means to produce a premature death can indeed be euthanasia, that is, unjust killing. "Death by starvation or dehydration is, in fact, the only possible outcome as a result of their withdrawal. In this sense it ends up becoming, if done knowingly and willingly, true and proper euthanasia by omission."

    5. In accord with the traditional teaching against imposing undue burdens on patients, the obligation to provide assisted feeding lasts only as long as such feeding meets its goals of providing nourishment and alleviating suffering. But as a counter-balance to arguments for withdrawing such feeding as burdensome, "it is not possible to rule out a priori that the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration, as reported by authoritative studies, is the source of considerable suffering for the sick person." This last statement emphasizes another aspect of the Popes address: He showed a thorough familiarity with the latest medical and scientific findings on the "vegetative state," which were highlighted by medical experts during the previous three days of the international congress.

    So no, we can safely say the pope did not ask to have his feeding tube removed.
     
    611katietx
          ID: 13310210
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 12:38
    We can? Of course I'm just going by a Vactican spokesman who said that - came right out of his mouth - in English...no translation necessary.

    But then, Baldwin, you are indeed the authority on this.

    Yes I read above, I read the link. I guess the Vatican spokesman (a Cardinal), was just lying thru his teeth and wanting the Pope to die quicker, huh?

     
    612Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 12:39
    kind of interesting that you're suggesting they should have just let her die without trying to see if she would get better first. - Tree

    How am I supposed to have an iota of respect for you as a poster? No one could for a nanosecond take that assertion seriously.

    Someone explain to me why I should bother even responding to you?

    Why not? You blindly take the word of 50 *ahem cough* Doctors who are neither board certified nor had ever exained Terri or her medical records - Sarge

    You know perfectly well Terri's family went to neurologists for second [as well as 50th] opinions and that they are board certified.

    Desperate lying on your part Sarge. I don't have the time or the inclination to respond to every lame and lying distraction you present.

    I am on to identifying the players and the progress of the euthanasia movement and identifying the roadblocks that can be raised to that steamroller.

    I intend to roll right past your waving arms without stopping to chat in the future.

     
    613Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 12:58
    kind of interesting that you're suggesting they should have just let her die without trying to see if she would get better first. - Tree

    How am I supposed to have an iota of respect for you as a poster? No one could for a nanosecond take that assertion seriously.


    Baldwin - i don't want your respect, because it's so skewed, that you'd respect a serial killer if all he killed was doctors who perform abortions.

    you insinuated that Schiavo didn't want his wife to die until after he won a lawsuit. but this, you're asserting that you know him on a personal level and have spoken about it, and that he should have just let her die instead of spending a LOT of money trying to help her get better in the mean time.

    you're a sick bastard baldwin.
     
    614sarge33rd
          ID: 34251187
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 13:11
    pot calling the kettle black Baldwin?

    when youposted your link to 50 drs sayin...blah-blah-vlaj, sox pointed out that yuour own link indicated that most (many?) of these drs were NOT board certified. He said as much in a post responding to yours.

    dont EVEN call me a liar pal. Not unless you're prepared and willing to say as much to my face. (an action/choice I would not reccommend you make.)
     
    615Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 13:17
    The number of the post.
     
    616Myboyjack
          ID: 121159118
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 14:59
    liar
     
    617Cosmo's Cod Piece
          ID: 481152817
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:04
    Sarge: Out of curiousity, is that Covert Ford related to Jim Covert of the Chicago Bears or his family?
     
    618katietx
          ID: 13310210
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:04
    I see, Baldwin, that you have not chosen to respond to my post #61. Typical.
     
    619Cosmo's Cod Piece
          ID: 481152817
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:07
    Katie: Baldwin posted in #61.

    Careful, I think a Florida judge may be hopping a plane to pull whatever machines you're on.
     
    620katietx
          ID: 13310210
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:08
    Terribly sorry CCP - see that you can point out a minor error in my typing.

    Should have said #611.

    Which one of you is riding piggyback today?

     
    621Cosmo's Cod Piece
          ID: 481152817
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:11
    It seems as if you and your kin live in an imaginary reality. Might as well have an imaginary internet too.
     
    622sarge33rd
          ID: 322471717
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:13
    always playing devils advocate eh MBJ? :) (me too for the most part lol)
     
    623sarge33rd
          ID: 322471717
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:15
    re 617...not that I am aware of. This family started with its first dealership in AUstin, back in 1909. Been going and growing ever since. A real "anamoly" in this business.
     
    624katietx
          ID: 13310210
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:17
    ROFL CCP - you are a piece of work. At least I don't live in the imaginary world of conspiracies, nazi's and death at every corner of my life.

    A sad reality you and your buddy live in.

     
    625Cosmo's Cod Piece
          ID: 481152817
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:23
    Don't throw me into the pot of the perpetually paranoid Katie, you're spinning like a set of rims at a car show.

    No offense to Nerve or Baldwin of course as it is a free country.

    I do believe in various JFK plots, but that's for another thread.

    I posted regarding Scientologists because Clearwater is their Mecca with their various HQ's of their different organizations. If you're ever in that neck of the woods, scope it out, it's pretty freaky.

    I worked for a Scientologist for two years and as soon as Baldwin posted about "killing with a thought" it clicked with me just exactly what that prick judge was doing and what his motives were/are.
     
    627Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Sat, Apr 02, 2005, 15:38
    What's to answer Katie? You haven't provided a link. I did. I showed you where the pope himself said witholding food and water from a patient was a sin. Until I see otherwise I'll assume he meant it.
     
    628culdeus
          ID: 492152212
          Sun, Apr 03, 2005, 20:43
    Schavo's parents selling names of donors to direct marketers.

    I'd expect nothing less.
     
    629sarge33rd
          ID: 582341722
          Sun, Apr 03, 2005, 21:06
    now, which party comprises the money-grubbing-publicity-hounds?

    legal query for those in the know; what if a donor doesnt want their name on a list? do iondividuals have the right to standup and say "Hey wait a gddmn minute here. I sign up at a website, I have the option to say make my name public or dont. Where is my option here?"
     
    630sarge33rd
          ID: 582341722
          Sun, Apr 03, 2005, 21:15
    as "fallout" from this, how many here fear that if the Schiavos go ahead with this sale, it might cause folks to think twice about contributing to other causes? ie, will the sale of these names, be sufficient to put a damper on the publics generosity?
     
    631Stuck in the 60s
          Dude
          ID: 274132811
          Sun, Apr 03, 2005, 22:14
    The way Terri died was horrible - whether she felt anything or not. I truly do not see the moral distinction between killing her by withholding food and water or killing her by giving her a shot that would end her life in five seconds.
    What seems to be going on here is that Terri looked like she was aware, even though most medical experts said otherwise.

    Thankfully, most decisions like this one involved people nearing the end of their lives, and families are not split about whether to give or withhold things like medical treatment or life-sustaining nutrients.

    If we're going to honor the wishes of people who do not wish to live under certain circumstances, then we should allow doctors to end their lives -quickly and painlessly.

    The problem is that, no matter your solution, someone has to make the final decision. That someone has historically been the courts. It needs to stay that way. There's no point in having a judiciary if you refuse to allow it to function.

    Don
     
    632Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Mon, Apr 04, 2005, 13:41
    Pastor at church that kicked out judge greer, interviewed here at 3 PM EST today streaming audiocast.
     
    633Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Mon, Apr 04, 2005, 13:53
    man, i posted that thing a week ago about Schiavo's parents.

    Baldwin ignored it. hmmm...kinda like what he does to reality...
     
    634Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 08:11
    Is it really too hard to believe that Scientology has infiltrated the Pinellas county power structure so much so that they could essentially legalize euthanasia there?
    Discovery of the true nature of Scientology began on July 8, 1977 -- to Scientologists a day that will live in infamy -- when FBI agents pounded down the doors of church offices in Los Angeles and Washington and carted away 48,149 documents. Many of these were copies of government documents that agents like "Silver" stole after infiltrating government agencies.

    Others were files of private organizations, like the American Medical Association and The St. Petersburg Times.

    Still others were internal documents of the Church of Scientology, and these would reveal myriad dark secrets.

    But knowledge of what the documents contained came slowly to the public.

    On Aug. 15, 1978, a federal grand jury in Washington indicted 11 Scientologists, nine of whom held high positions in the church's Guardian Office. That office had this mandate: "To sweep aside opposition sufficiently to create a vacuum into which Scientology can expand." The 28-count indictment charged them with conspiring to steal government documents, theft of government documents, and conspiring to obstruct justice.

    The documents reveal that the Church of Scientology came to Clearwater with a written plan to establish its program headquarters -- its school of theology, so to speak -- in the old Fort Harrison Hotel and to take control of the city. They show that United Churches of Florida was created as a front to protect church assets from seizure by the government.

    They show that church officials conceived and carried out plots to discredit their "enemies" -- the mayor who questioned their secrecy, reporters who investigated and wrote about Scientology, editor and owner of the area's largest newspaper, even local police departments.

    They show that covert agents of the church took jobs with local newspapers, community agencies, and law firms in order to spy.

    They underscore what a spokesman for the Church of Scientology told a group of Clearwater High School students recently: "We step on a lot of toes. We don't turn the other cheek."

    Government prosecutors, in a memorandum to Judge Richey urging maximum sentences, delivered this judgment:

    "That these defendants were willing to frame their critics to the point of giving false testimony under oath against them and having them arrested and indicted speaks legion for their disdain for the rule of law. Indeed, they arrogantly placed themselves above the law, meting out their personal brand of punishment to those 'guilty' of opposing their selfish aims.

    "The crime committed by these defendants is of a breadth and scope previously unheard of. No building, office, desk, or file was safe from their snooping and prying. No individual or organization was free from their despicable conspiratorial minds. The tools of their trade were miniature transmitters, lock picks, secret codes, forged credentials, and any other device they found necessary to carry out their conspiratorial schemes. It is interesting to note that the founder of their organization, unindicted co-conspirator L. Ron Hubbard, wrote in his dictionary entitled Modern Management Technology Defined ... that 'truth is what is true for you.' Thus, with the founder's blessings they could wantonly commit perjury as long as it was in the interest of Scientology. The defendants rewarded criminal activities that ended in success and sternly rebuked those that failed. The standards of human conduct embodied in such practices represent no less than the absolute perversion of any known ethical value system.


     
    635Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 09:59
    wow Baldwin, you really do want a Holy War in this country, don't you? everything you say shows that to me.
     
    636walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 10:59
    Florida Senator Aide Resigns over "political" Memo in Schiavo Case
     
    637bibA
          Sustainer
          ID: 261028117
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 11:11
    "The crime committed by these defendants is of a breadth and scope previously unheard of."

    Wow, pretty rotten bastards.

    Does this statement refer to all time, throughout history? Or just the worst crime ever committed within the U.S.?
     
    638Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 11:39
    biba

    Ask the government's prosecutors.

    Tree

    You want the scientologists to have a free hand to do these things unexposed? How is that good? You want a religious group who has a murder policy, intelligence service, a group that holds members who want to leave in concentration camps called RPF, or "Rehabilitation Project Force", a group you could reasonably call a paramilitary group to go unopposed? Why would that be good?
     
    639Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 13:34
    Baldwin, a lot of people don't understand the way the JW's work. in fact, if you're the standard-bearer for them, a newcomer to this site would find them to be a cult obsessed with death, semen, and intolerance toward those who believe differently.
     
    640Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 13:37
    All those doctors who claimed Terri's CT proved she was PVS can win an easy $100,000. Easy that is, if they are telling the truth.
    I have seen several neurologists -- in the printed media and on television -- put up a Representative CT of the brain of a normal 25 year old female and contrast this with Terri Schiavo's CT. This is a totally spurious comparison. No one is disputing that Terri Schiavo does not have the CT of a 25 year old female.

    What I'm saying is that Terri Schiavo's CT could be the brain of an eighty or ninety year old person who is not in a vegetative state. THOSE are the CT scans we should be showing next to Schiavo's, because in THAT case you would see similar atrophy and a brain much closer to Schiavo's.

    Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?

    To prove my point I am offering $100,000 on a $25,000 wager for ANY neurologist (and $125,000 for any neurologist/bioethicist) involved in Terri Schiavo's case--including all the neurologists reviewed on television and in the newspapers who can accurately single out PVS patients from functioning patients with better than 60% accuracy on CT scans.

    I will provide 100 single cuts from 100 different patient's brain CT's. All the neurologist has to do is say which ones represent patients with PVS and which do not.

    If the neurologist can be right 6 out of 10 times he wins the $100,000.

    I Said What I Meant, And I Meant What I Said

    My points are what I first said about the image from Terri Schiavo's CT scan:

    1) It is NOT as bad as the neurologists and bioethicists play it up to be; and,

    2) There are many elderly patients with various levels of mental functioning who have severe atrophy that is difficult to distinguish from Terri Schiavo's atrophy

    I stand by what I said. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is.
     
    641Baldwin
          ID: 241292815
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 13:39
    I would like to propose another challenge. To all those who keep claiming her collapse was caused by bulimia/low potasium stopping her heart...explain why her enzyme test for heart attack came back negative?
     
    642sarge33rd
          ID: 5733615
          Thu, Apr 07, 2005, 19:08
    with the news in the link from post 636, this Democrat is waiting for a retraction from the poster of #87

    and I quote, "Seems that those Schiavo Republican talking points so widely reported by the Fair and Balanced Liberal media are as bogus as the Rather the Rather Gate Memo.

    No Politics on the part of Democrats, eh."


    No TF. no politics on the part of Democrats was involved. None. Unless the aid of a Republican resigned because he found that Dems didnt necessarily like him a whole lot.
     
    643Baldwin
          ID: 59333101
          Sun, Apr 10, 2005, 04:35
    The evidence at hand.
     
    644Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Sun, Apr 10, 2005, 09:16
    Baldwin - way back in post 378, we DQed the Empire Journal as any sort of remotely unbiased source.

    Dear TEJ Readers,

    Thank you for all your calls giving us praise. While [sic] certainly appreciate your generous accolades, the main focus is and has always been to help Terri Schindler-Schiavo.
     
    645Baldwin
          ID: 2833106
          Sun, Apr 10, 2005, 22:54
    Yeah, right Tree. By your lights, the only source we can quote is George Felos.




    I just learned that not only did those nurses testifying to save Terri's life sacrifice their jobs to save her, they also risked $15,000 fines over HIPPA requirements. We should all be so fortunate as to have nurses who care that much about our lives. We should also have a public and a MSM who gives a damn, which unfortunately we don't.
     
    646Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Sun, Apr 10, 2005, 23:08
    Baldwin, nice way to gloss over the facts.

    you haven't linked to a source that even pretends to be unbiased. your sources are useless as, well, source material. they can't be trusted to present facts, and they can't be trusted to be honest.

    they run with an agenda that is stated and clear, not guessed.

    by my lights, as i've stated, show me MSM. show me Fox and CBS. show me the NY Times and the NY Post.

    conservative or liberal, they balance each other out in the mainstream.

    but your links are malarky. they don't amount to a hill of beans, and when it's all said and done, your sources are as useful as a strand of spaghetti as a rope when climbing Everest.
     
    647nerveclinic
          ID: 10351720
          Mon, Apr 11, 2005, 02:36
    We should also have a public and a MSM who gives a damn, which unfortunately we don't.

    I don't know what an MSM is but most of the public looks at Terri and says if I wind up like that I hope I have a loved one with the courage to put me out of my misery. That's how I look at it. That's how the pope looked at it when he refused to go to the hospital even though dialysis likely could have prolonged his life.

    What you fail to accept is the public DOES give a damn, they just don't want to spend 15 years laying in a hospital bed convulsing. At that point most of us would just assume move on...but you can't comprehend that. We must all be frikkin Nazi's.

    Wrong Baldwin, we want to live vital lives and when we reach the end of that road and are no longer lucid we are ready to GO.

    That is what the public cares about. Most of us are afraid that Right wing Christian freaks will force us to live no matter how much pain we are in, how much we are suffering, or how close to a vegetable we are. Sorry to put it in a religious context but you will find it always is a religion based issue...period.

    Whatever the facts of the Schaivo case are, the fact is you want to impose your religion on those of us who prefer living in a free country where we are free to go when life ceases to have meaning.

    You are free to make your own living will and go when you and your family wish...you are clearly obsessed with forcing the rest of us to follow your wishes for our lives.

    Typical advocate of a theocracy. That is what you are Baldwin.

    I'm not talking about Schaivo here, I am talking about your treatment of the whole issue of Euthanasia, even when it IS clear what the patient wants.

    Freedom scares you.

    You'll only be happy when we are run by a religious state.

    If you had just focused on he facts in the Schaivo case this might not seem obvious, but you've made it very clear how you feel about an individuals right to choose on this issue. You want to choose for them. You want your religion to choose for me.

    Guess what, not all Americans agree with you, that's why you saw the reaction to the Schaivo case that you did.

    I don't want to lay in a hospital bed for 15 years twitching, drooling, my tongue hanging out. others having to change my diapers every few hours.

    That's not living in my book, I understand that it is in yours, but don't assume everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi, it's really insulting.

    It's possible the real Nazi is the person who imposes their religious beliefs on me on such a personal decision.

     
    648Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Mon, Apr 11, 2005, 06:41
    preach on brotha Nerve. amen.

    btw and fyi, msm = main stream media.
     
    649Baldwin
          ID: 2833106
          Mon, Apr 11, 2005, 06:50
    No time to respond properly but I'll just say that suicide is illegal for the reason that it is important to view every life as valuable. You don't have to be religious, or a certain religion to recognize the value of that principle. Once lives start to be ranked and devalued any manner of horror can be justified by the state.
     
    650nerveclinic
          ID: 10351720
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 00:16

    suicide is illegal for the reason that it is important to view every life as valuable. You don't have to be religious, or a certain religion to recognize the value of that principle.

    I completely disagree with that premise. As powerless as you wish us to believe your religion is, the fight against doctor assited suicides has been almost exclusively waged by the Religious right and more specifically the Christian right.

    Follow the roots, look at the players. You love to point out the connections to the Scientologists in Florida, I guarentee you at the end of almost every strongly anti Euthenasia activist is a Christian Bible.

    They are over 90% of the movement and the are still powerful enough to elect the President of the United States and prevent mercy killings.

     
    651Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 00:56
    Laws against suicide are mostly just symbolic. It's not like you can go arrest them after they take too many pills. Just how easy do you want to make it?

    It's not like I'm interested in strapping down someone so they can't commit suicide.

    The problem with out and out legalizing it is that it can become too easily available to someone who might given time reconsider. Further and more problematic for society at large is that it lends something to the meme that some lives are not worth living and that way lies madness.

    Many who are fighting euthanasia want to delink it from the assisted suicide issue. There is a lot to be said pragmatically for that. I have discussed this issue with Ron Panzer of Hospice Patient's Alliance and he has convinced me however that you cannot agree to switch the discussion from "sanctity of life" to "quality of life".

    Once you have done so it's like the old prostitution joke. "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? Yes? Ok will you sleep with me for $20? You are outraged? We've already established you are a prostitute, now we are just negotiating the price."

    Once we say that some people's "quality of life" might merit mercy killing then it's just a downhill ride in a handbasket. What about alzheimer's patients? What about the retarded? What about Jews? Germany already went down that road.
     
    652nerveclinic
          ID: 10351720
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 01:44
    What about alzheimer's patients? What about the retarded? What about Jews? Germany already went down that road.

    Again you can't argue this subject rationally.

    How can you compare killing a Jew, a healthy intelligent human, with a terminally ill cancer patient in horrible pain who is asking to be put out of his/her misery?

    It's not a valid comparison. Just because a psychotic leader of a luciferic cult killed Jews doesn't make the argument analogous. It's not a valid or logical comparison. Why you don't get that shows how delusional you are on these subjects.

    Argue the case on it's merits alone, there are valid arguments against Euthanasia, I don't begrudge you that, the turn off is constantly comparing it to Hitler which makes it appear you A) Don't have a solid argument and B) Are really desperate.
     
    653Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 01:52
    I am totally being rational. You want to claim what actually did happen, can't happen.
    '[Increase] the authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such manner that persons who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death.'—Adolph Hitler, October, 1939
    And thus it begins.
     
    654nerveclinic
          ID: 10351720
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 04:05
    No I don't want to claim what actually happened, can't happen.

    WRONG.

    I acknowledge what happened.

    It has nothing to do with my own personal decision that if I am terminally ill, and in excruciating pain and wish to move on, I don't want a Christian holding a gun to my doctors head saying let him suffer...that is the factual reality. That is what you are insisting on.

    You keep making ignorant analogies that are really no longer worth arguing because you are babbling.

    No one is saying that Hitler didn't try and force his beliefs on others.

    Now YOU are doing the same to me. Forcing me to live in pain even when I decide I cannot bear it.

    Who's the Nazi?

    Taking it a step further. The only way the Christians will allow a terminally ill patient to die is dehydration.

    The Euthanasia crowd wants a suffering, terminally ill patient, in horrible pain, to be allowed to have a doctor assist in making the end quick and painless. The patients decision.

    The merciful Christians insist on weeks of dehydration. Again not talking about the Schaivo case but terminally ill, patients in excruciating pain. The pain is prolonged by the merciful Christians.

    Fact.

    The Pope even chose not to prolong his life. He could have done it. He could have gone to the hospital. He choose not to.

    Smart man.

    Time to move on.

    Time to end his suffering.

    Ironic it happened so close to the Schaivo case and he choose Euthanasia for himself.
     
    655Tree
          ID: 212401018
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 07:10
    i'm starting to see the Christian way, in this thread and others:

    Jews = terminally ill and suffering cancer patients.
    Homosexuals = pedophiles.
     
    656Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 10:24
    Nerve

    I am not for denying all the painkiller a patient needs even if it eventually results in their accidental death. I am just looking for a way to keep doctors from deliberately overdosing them.

    Tree

    The only trend you have seen is that everytime there is a threat to life, Jews are at extra risk. Anti-semitism is a fact of life that any pro-life person must be concerned about. Why there are so many people eager to kill Jews is something you indeed should be concerned about but you are far less likely to find your threat coming from the pro-life side.
     
    657Slowhand@work
          ID: 1528109
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 10:35
    Could someone start a new thread on this subject...it's interesting and informative but a little slow loading.
     
    658Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 11:05
    But Tree said I can't have any more threads. Oh, right, trolls don't actually rule.
     
    659Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 13:24
    Baldwin - big difference between a thread being over 600 posts, and starting a half-dozen threads on the same topic.

    now, i realize it's hard to see all that with your head so far up your own ass...
     
    660Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 13:25
    He's charming for a troll, don't you think?
     
    661Myboyjack
          ID: 121159118
          Sat, Apr 16, 2005, 23:49
    I hate to revive this thread, but...

    Florida agency rejected Schiavo abuse claims

    The documents include a complaint from 2003 in which the Schindlers accused Schiavo of having said, "I can't wait until the bitch is dead."

    The DCF said its investigation found Michael Schiavo to be a loving spouse who cared deeply about his wife.

    "The staff involved with her care stated the spouse is always courteous and is rarely alone with the patient," the 2003 report found.

    "There is no supporting documentation that the spouse ever made statements about 'Is the bitch ever going to die?' or 'When will the bitch die because I will be rich.'"

    A DCF report from a year earlier said Michael Schiavo had no access to hundreds of thousands of dollars awarded to his wife from a medical malpractice suit.

    "He is only the guardian of person and the financial guardian is a banking institution. All expenditures are authorized by the court and [Michael Schiavo] has no control over them," it said.

     
    662sarge33rd
          ID: 5733615
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 00:35
    Boldwin....would you care for anything to help that "humble pie" go down a bit easier?
     
    663Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 09:20
    I know for a fact one 800 page accusation that wasn't released in that report. In addition how seriously can you take a report that ignores eyewitnesses who have come foreward repeatedly on national TV giving first person testimony. Namely nurses who heard him discussing when 'that b/tch was ever gonna die'. If that isn't documented nothing is. Clearly McCabe still has his thumb on the scale of justice.
     
    664Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 10:20
    You'll probably swallow this latest move too, Sarge. George Felos' exwife, lawyer and massage therapist, has volunteered to look at the autopsy report and add her 'expert' opinion.

    BTW I've read but haven't linked yet, the fact that Greer and the sheriff from the sheriff's department that hired Michael Schiavo and his girlfriend's mother for over a decade, were on the committee to pick the current medical examiner who did the autopsy, giving him a big pay boost to $140,000 yearly. Sarge will buy that report too.
     
    665Stuck in the 60s
          Dude
          ID: 274132811
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 10:44
    Baldwin:

    I mean no offense at this, so please don't bristle. But some of your political positions aren't really political in any accepted sense of the word. Mostly, they seem to be apocalyptic rantings about the failure of modern society to pay enough attention to the blogs where you seem to get the majority of your information.

    What's wrong with a issue-based discussion that doesn't require those of us who don't share your views to be blasted as apostates? (And, yes, I realize you never said that -- but it's sure the feeling I get when I read your posts.) Why is it so hard to ascribe good faith to those with whom you disagree?
     
    666Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 11:12
    Massage therapist and exwife of George Felos offers to look at the autopsy report for us.

    Oops, it was a 700 page accusation that McCabe quashed.
     
    667Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 11:45
    Close to SZ's home.
    And I wonder if some judge some day will claim the power to rule that my granddaughter Cleo's life is not worth living.

    Chi-Dooh Li is a Seattle attorney
     
    668Pancho Villa
          Sustainer
          ID: 533817
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 12:20
    from #667,
    She can even tell the difference between different recordings of the same music and insists on Anne-Sophie Mutter's interpretation of the Tchaikovsky. She expresses her displeasure if you try a different rendition on her

    My cat reacts the same way whenever the Blue Swede version of "Hooked on a Feeling" comes on the radio. She insists on the original hit by BJ Thomas, and immediately pisses on the radio when it blares "hooka chaka chaka chaka, hooka chaka chaka chaka.." instead of the sitar intro on the Thomas version.
     
    669Boldwin
          ID: 8347115
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 12:29
    You aren't suggesting she be euthanized I hope.
     
    670sarge33rd
          ID: 5733615
          Sun, Apr 17, 2005, 12:30
    she keeps pissing on the radio, she'll take care of that herself.
     
    671 pc93
          ID: 19336189
          Mon, Apr 18, 2005, 11:36
    Re: 700 page report keep eyes peeled. In the meantime:

    The following was a challenge given out [Ed. note: which has now been slightly modified April 18, 2005] and also included below is a URL for our press release:

    From your friendly neighborhood moderator/creator of terrisjustice. See below. We have been challenged and now I must issue my challenge to you.

    Those in the pinnacles of authority [Jeb Bush and others] believe that we are going to melt away and give up seeking justice for Terri.

    The famous motto of the Zapatistas is one response of ours in this regard: Ya Basta!

    We will never surrender! We will never tire!

    Challenge to you: go out and inform 10 other people what happened to Terri. Get them signed on terrisjustice. Ask them to do the same.

    This is how the grassroots grows and is the only true means of getting a true geometrical progression realized.

    If you are not for getting justice for Terri against those with blood on their hands do not join this list. If you are a spy or have mal-intents and you try to join or succeed in joining please leave the list or it may be that one day you will die a horrible death not at our hands but as a result of your disingenuous actions which resulted in karmic repercussions. This is a form of what is called felos-de-se (a senseless or purposeful act of self-murder).

    NOTE:

    A great deal of lee-way is necessary, given the scope of the work, and I am committed to freedom of expression. HOWEVER, it does sometimes become necessary to remind ourselves of our purpose and the basic rules of etiquette when communicating with others.

    Flame wars and attacks on the character of others are not allowed on this list, and other members of the list not involved should not be subjected to emails containing such material - carry them on in private please if you must, or more adult behavior, don't indulge in them at all.

    We will remind once in awhile if things get a little out of hand, and any continued offense will be dealt with by either a moderation of the posts of the offender(s) or, when all else fails, a complete ban on those posts, especially when several complaints have been received from offended list members.

    We have never had to take action in some years of doing this, and we hope this will never be necessary. Thank you for your support, and may your experience on this list be as enjoyable as it is informative.

    URL for press release [also contained in Yahoo! News]:

    http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/4/prweb229498.php

    JS
     
    672biliruben
          ID: 531202411
          Mon, Apr 18, 2005, 11:39
    If you're loony, they will come.
     
    673Pancho Villa
          Sustainer
          ID: 533817
          Mon, Apr 18, 2005, 12:29
    I already gave at the spotted owl booth.
     
    674Tree
          ID: 76471215
          Mon, Apr 18, 2005, 12:51
    SaveTerrifromcrazychristians.com is now quoting the Zapatistas? wtf?? lol

    so, is the B!tch dead yet?
     
    675 charlene
          ID: 5340139
          Fri, May 13, 2005, 10:00
    u are all a bunch of weirdos why dont u get a life if someone wants to kill themsrlves than that is up to them
     
    676sarge33rd
          ID: 15420101
          Fri, May 13, 2005, 10:11
    being wierd IS our lives. :)
     
    677Stuck in the 60s
          Dude
          ID: 274132811
          Fri, May 13, 2005, 20:30
    This is starting to be fun!!

    Don
     
    678Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 11:44
    Schiavo Autopsy Shows No Sign of Trauma

    He said she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth as her parents' requested.

    "Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not," (Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon) Thogmartin told reporters.

    Thogmartin said that Schiavo's brain was about half of its expected size when she died March 31 in a Pinellas Park hospice, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed.

    "The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain. ... This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
     
    679sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 18:50
    About 40 judges in six courts were involved in the case at one point or another. Six times, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to intervene. As Schiavo’s life ebbed away following the final removal of her feeding tube, Congress rushed through a bill to allow the federal courts to take up the case, and President Bush signed it March 21, but federal courts refused to step in.

    According to Boldwins unending claims of conspircay on the part of the county...it must have been one HUGE conspiracy. Covered 40 judges, 6 courts and had arms sufficiently long and strong to cause SCOTUS to decline 6 TIMES to even hear the case.
     
    680Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 18:58
    All the damage was done in the fact finding local courts which cavelierly dismissed every fact that conflicted with their preordained outcome. The facts of the case were never reviewed de novo and Greer's judgement of the facts of the case was just automatically accepted.
     
    681Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 19:05
    I do believe that the Bush brother's support was purely left handed posturing and they were a complete failure in this case. The state intervenes countless times every year in family matters where they believe someone's life is in danger. Usually on evidence flimsier than in this case. I do believe the fix extended to them. Crist is set it seems to inherit Jeb Bush's job as a payoff for his failure to do his job in this case, I believe. The corrupt Everrett Rice, a villian in this piece [and the man who hired Michael and worked with his girlfriends mother] is set to inherit Crist' job when Crist runs for governor, as a payoff for Rice's evil deeds in this case.
     
    682sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 19:27
    ...cavelierly dismissed every fact that conflicted with their preordained outcome.

    and this would make them different from you.........how?
     
    683Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 19:36
    I see, railroading someone to murder, you can tolerate, but the idea that the Alpha and the Omega knows a few things about the future, you can't.

     
    684sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 20:00
    A) railroading someone to murder?

    wtf are you talking about.

    B)the Alpha and the Omega knows a few things about the future

    sounds to me like the thinking of a fatalist. You know, preordained futures. Ones "destiny". Wouldnt that line of thought rather tend to preclude the very root basis of christianity? Free will?????????????
     
    685Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 20:17
    A) You know perfectly well

    B) It is a serious question. I believe the answer lies in those periodic 'looks' he takes like the ones during the creation. I believe he solidifies the general outlines in this way and so in that sense the general outlines are preordained, but still allowing free will within the details. Speaking of a specific preaching work Jeus said...
    But in reply he said: “I tell YOU, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out.”
    Which tells me the specific message they were giving was preordained to be given, but who would do it was not and a matter of free will. More info than you wanted, I know.
     
    686sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 20:19
    ahhhhhh ever the good christian arent you? slanderously bandying about accusations of felonious conduct when it simply isnt so.


    preordained outcomes, defy by their very nature, the idea of "free will". cant have both. cant claim both. each is mutually exclusive of the other.
     
    687Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 20:22
    That's like saying 'preordained rooms, can't have fixed walls and not have fixed furniture layout'.
     
    688sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 20:23
    only the same if we assume the furniture could have otherwise excercised free will to move itself.
     
    689Tree
          ID: 215341418
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 21:07
    I see, railroading someone to murder, you can tolerate,

    last time i checked, you were the one railroading someone to murder, and still are doing so, despite autopsy results to the contrary.
     
    690Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Wed, Jun 15, 2005, 21:54
    Google fodder...
    "Dr Nelson says, "Neuropathologic examination alone of the decedent's brain -- or any brain, for that matter -- cannot prove or disprove a diagnosis of persistent vegetative state or minimally conscious state."
    Something I had read before the autopsy came out.
     
    691Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 08:00
    I'm a too angry this week to do a rigorous run thru the autopsy issue. I said long ago, months ago, that the fix was in and Greer picked Throgmartin.

    The more I dug into Throgmartin's conduct in other cases the more I found an honorable guy I didn't think would be a likely Greer tool or willing part of the conspiracy.

    Again I haven't fully reviewed the newest info but the network of sources I've found working on this case and from listening to Terri's siblings yesterday, it seems the media has leaped on the predictible sentence they were looking for but ignored the meat of what he said.

    Very early...but here is where I'm at right now...

    1) Throgmartin complains of serious medical record destruction in this case that hampered his work.

    2) He was forced to use material from Micheal's lawyers when that material was missing.

    3) I originally wondered why the delay in releasing the results. Speculation went from timing the release to further the euthanasia case at the optimal time, holding out for more corrupt favor concessions from the corrupt people at the heart of this case...

    I now center on the missing records. I think he wanted to get this one perfect and was trying to locate documents that were [deliberately] missing. I think that was the point at which the fixers laid their hopes of fixing the autopsy and chosing someone who wasn't an obvious corrupt shill for MA was better for cover. In fact the MA is about the only man in this whole corrupt house of cards that Felos and Greer have built who isn't in-your-face obviously corrupted.

    4) The thrust of his overall autopsy does not support the notion that he could categorically determine whether Terri was PVS.

    5) He can't deny the bonescan evidence of abuse. He can say he didn't find any now but he can't deny that timely evidence of the original bonescan. I don't know if he actually does if you parse all his words and he does then he really was corrupted.

    6) He does not support the bulimia or heart attack theory advanced by the media and Michael. Which leaves only strangulation as far as I can see for an explanation.

    7) There are also allegations that Pinellas doctors are getting intimidated into supporting the Felos-Greer version of events. In much the same way that nurses at Woodside hospice were strongarmed and threatened into signing a letter of protest to congress supporting Felos. More on that later.
     
    692Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 08:41
    Probably the best coverage of the autopsy we are going to get all week.
     
    693Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 09:25
    of course. the empire journal. lol...they've been the best propoganda for the pro-her husband murdered her crowd the entire time...sweeeeeeeeeet!
     
    694Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 09:33
    The St Petersburg Times has demonstrated propaganda coverage in this affair being so coopted they are by now a scientology front group. The Empire Journal has far and away been the best source of in-depth reporting on this story.

    People are well aware of your tactics Tree. You never contribute anything to the discussion. You could attach a - Tree responds with a substance free sneer to the end of every one of my posts and no one would notice you were missing.
     
    695Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 10:02
    No Baldwin, but when you're using a propaganda rag - one that on it's front page a while back pointed out that their sole goal was to Save Terri and disrespect her wishes - then it needs to be pointed out.

    it is very relevant to the conversation that the bias of a certain source be pointed out.
     
    696Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 10:03
    The depth of their reporting is self-evident to anyone who reads them.
     
    697soxzeitgeist
          ID: 135511610
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 12:23
    And that depth is about an inch deep and a mile wide.

    By the latest count that's now the hospice facility, dozens of healthcare professionals including doctors, nurses, therapists and patient care techs, the Pinellas County Sherrifs Department, the ME's office, the Florida AG's office, three levels of state and federal courts and Santa Claus who were all in on the conspiracy (while drawing a tremendous amount of attention to themselves and variously risk censure, disbarment, loss of credentials and career, civil lawsuits, fines and the threat of criminal inditement) to "kill" Terri.

    Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce our ever more tiresome and obsolescent poster...baldwin!
     
    698Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 12:29
    The sad thing is that when you finally realize how wrong headed you have been on this issue it will be too late for you to save your own life Sox. You will have literally handed the gun to your murderers.

    I actually wonder if I had taken the pro-murder Terri side if you and Tree wouldn't have reflexively taken the other side of the issue.
     
    699sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 12:56
    there was a "pro murder" side? I dont recall EVER saying....to hell with it, just shoot her. Nor do I recall anyone else saying as much.

    Boldwin, your propensity for twisting reality to fit within the emotional painting and framework you are so diligently at work upon, has TRULY grown old, borng, wearisome and pointless.
     
    700Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 13:00
    I actually wonder if I had taken the pro-murder Terri side if you and Tree wouldn't have reflexively taken the other side of the issue.

    you're the one who has falsely accused, don't forget that. from posters here, to Terri Schiavo's husband, you have falsely accused many of murder. what does your God say about bearing False Witness?

    just wonderin'...
     
    701Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 13:26
    I am the one who has looked at the evidence the most carefully and knows that the causes of her collapse that keep being raised by you have already been medically ruled out and the only likely explanation is the one I have been proposing.
     
    702Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 13:35
    Baldwin - where is your degree in Forensic Science from?
     
    703Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 13:35
    If you want to believe bulimia caused a heart attack, find some medical evidence that she could have had a heart attack and not shown the enzyme indicators of a heart attack.
     
    704Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 14:08
    If you want to believe bulimia spousal abuse caused a heart attack her to fall into a coma, find some medical evidence that she could have had a heart attack been abused and not shown the enzyme indicators of a heart attack evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse.

    don't even pull out this medical evidence crap when you've refused to believe every bit of medical evidence in this entire case, from your false claims of abuse all the way to your false claims she was cognizant when they pulled the plug.
     
    705sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 14:25
    weii, I don't have a medical degree, but I can read. Autopsy report syas her brain weighed in at 1/2 what would be expected from the brain of one her age.


    Q1) Where did they other half go?
    The cells couldnt have just 'died', as even dead human cells have mass and thus weight. If they were physically gone, what happened to them? Where did they go? Oh thats right. Large sections of her brain (as is normal with PVS patients) had liquified and then "run off". This would explain the loss of brain matter/mass.

    Q2) With half of the physical brain, physically gone...how can one possibly argue that she wasnt PVS????
    No cognitive reasoning functions, no sight, no speech, nothing. A living organism...yes. I live human being? Hardly.


    Boldwin...you can continue to rant, you can continue to hitch yourself up atop your soapbox. You can continue to scream at the top of your lungs. On this topic, you are now on "ignore".
     
    706Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 14:41
    Since you and Tree haven't contributed anything to this thread but empty-headed sneering, you were welcome to put me on ignore from the start.
     
    707Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 14:44
    I provided the testimony of doctors that her injuries looked exactly like strangulation. Neither Michael nor anyone here has provided any plausible explanation for her bonescan which shows abuse.
     
    708sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 14:50
    at the risk of responding to you...

    post 678 has a link in it...click on it...read it...

    LARGO, Fla. - Terri Schiavo did not suffer any trauma prior to her 1990 collapse and her brain was about half of normal size when she died, according to results released Wednesday of an autopsy conducted on the severely brain-damaged woman.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that there was no evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse. He also said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.



    ***bold added****



     
    709Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 15:10
    i wasn't sneering Baldwin...i think i had a legitimate point - but this is, status quo for you. whenever someone calls you on something you don't have a conspiracy theory for, you back off one way or the other.

    anyway, the point being that you're busy pulling out some "medical evidence" argument, while denying all the other medical evidence that's out there.

    how does this jibe?
     
    710Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 15:26
    I have a house full of out of town guests. Did you click on my link Sarge?
     
    711sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 15:40
    The question becomes Boldwin, when can someone in a position of authority disagree with you and NOT be part of a conspiracy? Doesnt it strike you as odd, every time someone issues an edict with which you disagree....you label them a conspirator. From the outside looking in, that makes me think YOU need to seriously rethink YOUR position and attitude.
     
    712Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 15:52
    I have a house full of out of town guests

    please see my previous comment where i stated whenever someone calls you on something you don't have a conspiracy theory for, you back off one way or the other.
     
    713sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 15:54
    btw...yes I read your link. "Newspapers" however, report the news. They dont try to BE the news. Other "headlines" from this blatantly biased "rag":

    ► Schiavo Autopsy Based on Medical Records
    From Husband's Attorney


    ► EXCLUSIVE
    Schiavo Hospice CEO Determined to Corner The Death Market

    ► Experts Say Schiavo Injuries Classic Signs of Strangulation

    ►EXCLUSIVE
    Federal Judge In Schiavo Case Had Major Conflict Involving Felos
    READ MORE





    This is a source of info with a predetermined axe to grind Boldy. How much validity would you put to an article published on an Athiestic website disputing the validity of the bible? THAT, is how much validity I put behind this websites comments.
     
    714Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 16:31
    They write those headlines because that is what the evidence shows. Evidence you can't encounter with your head in the sand.
     
    715sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 16:35
    A) Its not evidence by any definition of the word. Its supposition, innuando and rumor.

    B) Its not envidence that wont be encountered...as you say. Its "evidence" that wont be believed without having your head up your "darker channels".
     
    716Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 16:51
    I'm just curious Sarge, what do you get out of rotoguru besides the opportunity to dog me? You don't join our leagues. Do you play fantasy sports at all?
     
    717sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 16:59
    lol Boldy. Ever look at the golf forum? I have such bad luck there, its come to be known as "the sarge factor". When a certain golfer failed to show for his Friday tee time a few weeks back....GURU no less, posted that he had apparently fallen under "the sarge factor" and realized hell...I'm on sarges fantasy golf squad. I have no chance of winning so fvck it. I'm going home.

    In football, I have earned recognition for consistently drafting those key players, who spend the most time on I/R that year. Started a few years back with E McAffrey breaking his leg on the 1st play of the 1st game of the season. Followed a few weeks later when J Anderson torqued his OTHER knee and ended his career. Then you had Pennington breaking his wrist in preseason. M Bennet suffering a 4 week foot injury that turned into 8 or 9 weeks. The list goes on and on...


    No Boldy. Dont flatter yourself. You are NOT the sole reason I am here.
     
    718Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 17:18
    That's riiight, now I remember. Yeah, I have heard you with the golf asides now that you jog my memory. Yeah, I tried a couple golf games one year when Tiger had the world juiced on golf. That was the only year I went to the golf forum. But that is your only fantasy sport huh?
     
    719sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 17:20
    apparently reading isnt your strength. Look at paragraph 2 above.
     
    720Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 17:24
    Dude, I'm posting with one hand and being a host with the other. Cut me some slack, I meant you can't join any of our expert leagues because...?
     
    721sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 17:27
    because back in '76 my drill sgt told me "expert" comes from joining two greek (or was it latin?) roots. ex and pert. ex means 'has been' or 'washed up' and pert means 'drip'. Hence, I make no claims to being 'expert' in anything. :)
     
    722sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 17:32
    more to the point though. I used to run about a dz or so high dollar fanatsy baseball leagues. Up until the strike in 1993. I swore off the game after that. Millionaire ballpalyers whining and millionaire owners whining, "I dont get a big enough piece of the pie". While they did that and sat on their collective a$$e$, a buddy who ran a concession in KC for the Royals, lost his house to foreclosure and had his car repo'd, because his income was slashed by 60+% due to the strike. I've never forgiven the game for that, and I never will.

    I tried roto-nascar and just dont get into nascar sufficiently well to know wtf I'm doing.

    I've NEVER been a basketball fan. Never watched a single game other than the old-time Harlem Globetrotters. Meadowlark Lemon, Curly etc etc from the 60's. This pretty much aborts any notions of fantasy basketball. Hey, when did Wilt Chamberlain retire and whatever happened to Pistol Pete anyway??????????
     
    723katietx
          ID: 544411918
          Thu, Jun 16, 2005, 18:01
    Another reason he may only play 2 fantasy sports is that he likes to spend time with his wife. Unlike others who may play in every league that comes along.
     
    724walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 11:39
    B-Blamo! Nice one Katie. Just really funny.

    - walk
     
    725Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 12:11
    Probe Sought in Terri Schiavo 911 Call

    TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Gov. Jeb Bush asked a prosecutor Friday to investigate why
    Terri Schiavo collapsed 15 years ago, calling into question how long it took her husband to call 911 after he found her.


    does the Governor of a state not have something more important to do?

    i ask this seriously...
     
    726walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 12:21
    Agreed, Tree. Very selective and clearly motivated by an agenda that is not about what's most important for Floridians. I imagine there's a lot of crime that's a bit more current and less "political" that he could turn his attention to, if he wanted to crack down on something that was in need of being cracked down on. Like his head.

    - walk
     
    727Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 12:39
    Yeah, Floridians aren't concerned with the right to not be murdered.

    You do know that when the Schindlers finally were called into the room Michael was sitting on the couch reading a Reader's Digest and had not even bothered to turn her over onto her back and try CPR?
     
    728Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 13:18
    are you talking about after she collapsed at her home?

    link please Baldwin, and not from the Empire Journal, or one of the similar pro-schiavo rags you frequent.

     
    729Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 13:35
    Yes after she collapsed at home. And I'll use whatever source digs the hardest for the facts.
     
    730Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 14:15
    You do know that when the Schindlers finally were called into the room Michael was sitting on the couch reading a Reader's Digest and had not even bothered to turn her over onto her back and try CPR?

    so, who else was in this room besides Terri and Michael that called the Schindlers into the room while Michael was busy reading?
     
    731Mattinglyinthehall
          ID: 192301410
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 14:29
    Yes after she collapsed at home. And I'll use whatever source digs the hardest for the facts.

    Or displays the greatest imagination in fabricating them.
     
    732Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 14:37
    How you know nothing will come of Jeb's latest posturing to his base...
    State Attorney Bernie McCabe has agreed to review the time elements in the case, his chief assistant, Bruce Bartlett, said Thursday.
    That's right, hand it to the most corrupt DA in the country. The same guy you handed the massage parlor case to to cover that up. The same guy who let scientology off the hook for dehydrating Lisa McPherson. The same guy who had his thumb on the scales of justice in the effort to murder Terri the whole time.

    He is going top investigate. Riiiight. Thanks Jeb. Just hand it to a real investigator/prosecutor/law enforcement body next time.
     
    733biliruben
          Leader
          ID: 589301110
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 14:37
    That dick! Just sitting there reading a reader's digest while his wife is dying?

    The dude must be the most numbingly uncaring human being ever.

    I bet he must have beat her regularly.

    I bet she was so scared of a guy that cold-blooded that she was just pretending to have massive brain damage for 15 years.

    The dude should be forced to pull a float by his nipples! (took a bit to work that link in there ;) )
     
    734Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 15:21
    so, who else was in this room besides Terri and Michael that called the Schindlers into the room while Michael was busy reading?
     
    735soxzeitgeist
          ID: 26581714
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 15:30
    It's laughable that you are either egomanical or delusional enough to believe that I reflexively respond to any of your posts at this point, baldwin.

    Or even could for that matter.

    You've repeatedly posted your way into logic and common sense defying corners enough that it's generally tough to respond at all. And since the vast majority of your posts are now based on some sort of combination of faith and conspiracy, it makes conversation (let alone debate) next to impossible.
     
    736walk
          Dude
          ID: 32928238
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 15:32
    That was beautiful, bili. I laud the effort.

    I think, #727, there are prolly 5 murders a day in Florida, if not more, that likely deserve more bushian attention -- let alone other issues. Yet this alleged murder, alleged only by those who have political ambitions/interests at stake, extreme religious convictions, or a family feud, want to take the time and expense of the taxpayers to look into a select husband's actions which took place 15 years ago...with extremely little evidence, but there is anger, revenge, and careers to be protected.

    Seems pretty arbitrarily self-serving, bold-Jeb.

    - walk
     
    737Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 15:35
    I don't understand your nonsensical question. Michael called Bobby Schindler according to my understanding who lived pretty close by, and the scene he saw was Michael on the couch reading 'Reader's Digest' and his sister was lieing face down on the carpet halfway between rooms. The fact that she was face down strongly suggests Michael made no effort to rescussatate her as he claims. The Reader's Digest story is an esoteric point that I did not learn until I became active within the community of hundreds of people actively and daily seeking the prosecution of all the people who are responsible for Terri's Murder from McCabe and Sheriff Rice and Senator King and Greer and the whole corrupt bunch of Florida RINO's, besides the original villain. I am waiting for an e-mail on the 'Reader's Digest' detail.
     
    738Perm Dude
          ID: 165591315
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 15:39
    Was it "Humor in Uniform" by any chance? That always sucks me in.
     
    739Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 15:46
    The Reader's Digest story is an esoteric point that I did not learn until I became active within the community of hundreds of people actively and daily seeking the prosecution of all the people who are responsible for Terri's Murder from McCabe and Sheriff Rice and Senator King and Greer and the whole corrupt bunch of Florida RINO's, besides the original villain. to turn fabrication into fact, lies into truth, and send an innocent man to prison for a murder that never happen. and to kill all the Jews and Muslims.

    i'm waiting for an email that says Terri Schiavo's situation was tragic, but not caused by her husband. stay tuned.
     
    740Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 16:18
    Have that engraved on your tombstone if you like.
     
    741Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 17:16
    hooray! it came!

    ---------------------------------------------------
    Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:07:22 -0400
    From: "Couch Schiavo"
    To: rabbi_cuervo@yahoo.com, "Tree Hugger"
    Subject: What really happened in the Schiavo House

    To Whom It May Concern:

    Hi.

    My name is Couch Schiavo. I am the couch that many on the Religious Right claim Michael Schiavo sat on, reading a magazine, as Terri died on the floor.

    I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt that Michael did not sit on me, and he certainly wasn't reading a magazine. In fact, he rarely ever sat on me. It was Terri who always sat on me - in fact, Michael preferred that stupidhead La-Z-Boy across the room.

    Additionally, he hated Reader's Digest - Terri read the crap out of that mag, and she saved every damned issue. Michael hated that. He preferred to read Popular Science anyway. i could tell, since, like i said, he always say across the room in that *other* chair...grrrr....what i wouldn't give to beat that chair into submission and leave it in a coma.

    i kid. gallows humour. if you don't like it, well, get over it.

    Anyway, to reiterate, Michael had nothing to do with Terri dying. She just collapsed, and as she lay on the floor dying, he did everything in his power to bring her back, but sadly it just wasn't meant to be.

    I haven't seen the man in years, and obviously i hold a grudge for him never sitting on me, but no way he killed that woman. he loved her. it's so odd to me that so many people who didn't know either of them when she was alive, and 12 months ago probably didn't know who either of them were other than from an odd newscast, suddenly want to brand him a murderer. Idiotssssssssss.

    Talons and Chickens,

    Couch Schiavo
     
    742sarge33rd
          ID: 544411918
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 17:18
    I think I;ll them engrace the following;

    "Here lies sarge A non-entity, life force born out of the frustration felt by certain leftwing posters when encountering a midwestern right-wing poster. The absolute and inexorable result of mental energies churned and lacking direction. He was the manifestation of these mental waves and his sole purpose was to serve as a counterpoint to the aforementioned rightwinger. (OK, he had to suck at fantasy golf too....alright, and football.)"
     
    743Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 17:22
    I'd like to think Katie fits in there somewhere too. Lol! Preferably ahead of me.
     
    744sarge33rd
          ID: 544411918
          Fri, Jun 17, 2005, 19:06
    she does. ;)
     
    745nerveclinic
          ID: 3454230
          Sat, Jun 18, 2005, 22:51
    Baldwin: Yes after she collapsed at home. And I'll use whatever source digs the hardest for the facts.

    Baldwin your sources have been so discredited, by the most recent autopsy for instance, (performed by the state, not the church of scientology) that it's a wonder Schaivo doesn't sue for liable.

     
    746Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Mon, Jun 20, 2005, 07:37
    Full PDF of Autopsy [not sure if you need to be in Yahoo group to access file]

    Dr. William Hammesfahr, known as a pioneer in approaches to helping the brain injured, said to ignore the facts would "allow future Terri Schiavos to die needlessly."

    "The record must be set straight," he said. "As we noted in the press, there was no heart attack, or evident reason for this to have happened [the heart attack theory was denied in the autopsy based on medical records at her initial hospital tests - B](and certainly not of Terri's making). Unlike the constant drumbeat from the husband, his attorneys, and his doctors, the brain tissue was not dissolved, with a head of just spinal fluid. In fact, large areas were 'relatively preserved.'"

    He said the autopsy results confirmed his opinion that the frontal areas of the brain, the areas that deal with awareness and cognition, were relatively intact.

    "In fact, the relay areas from the frontal and front temporal regions of the brain, to the spinal cord and the brain stem, by way of the basal ganglia, were preserved, thus the evident responses which she was able to express to her family and to the clinicians seeing her or viewing her videotape," he said. "The Spect scan confirmed these areas were functional and not scar tissue, and that was apparently also confirmed on Dr. (Stephen) Nelson's review of the slides."

    Dr. Hammesfahr describes Terri as "a woman trapped in her body, similar to a child with cerebral palsy, and that was born out by the autopsy, showing greater injury in the motor and visual centers of the brain. Obviously, the pathologists comments that she could not see were not borne out by reality, and thus his assessment must represent sampling error. The videotapes clearly showed her seeing."

    He was critical of the findings that she was not capable of swallowing on her own. He cited her ability to swallow up to about 1.5 liters per day of liquid, confirmed, he said, by two other physicians. [She didn't drool, this is a slam dunk - B]

    "With respect to the issue of trauma, that certainly does not appear to be answered adequately," he added. "Some of the types of trauma that are suspected were not adequately evaluated in this assessment. Interestingly, both myself and at least one neurologist for the husband testified to the presence of neck injuries."

    Hammesfahr concluded: "Ultimately, based on the clinical evidence and the autopsy results, an aware woman was killed."

    His statements concur with others who have conducted analyses of the autopsy results. Last week, an attorney specializing in medical ethics cases, Jerri Lynn Ward of Austin, Texas, made similar observations. She particularly took note of this autopsy finding: "The frontal temporal and temporal poles and insular-cortex demonstrated relative preservation."

    "What this tells us is that her cortex retained function and that her brain was more normal in the area that controls higher-level thinking," said Ward, who has weighed in on the case in her weblog and in an interview with "Joseph Farah's WorldNetDaily RadioActive" show.

    Schiavo died March 31, nearly two weeks after the feeding tube that had kept her alive was removed under a court order obtained by her husband, Michael Schiavo. Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, said they were willing to care for their daughter, insisting she had a strong will to live.

    Experts supporting Michael Schiavo – contending Terri Schiavo's brain cortex essentially was missing and filled with fluid – concluded she was in a persistent vegetative state. The Schindlers, arguing that their daughter recognized and responded to family members, produced neurologists who diagnosed her as "minimally conscious."

    Pinellas-Pasco medical examiner Jon Thogmartin, speaking at a news conference Wednesday, said the damage to Terri Schiavo's brain was "irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."

    But Ward, pointing to the autopsy report, noted the brain's frontal lobe plays a part in impulse control, judgment, language, memory, motor function, problem solving, sexual behavior, socialization and spontaneity.

    "It is very possible that she remained cognizant of sounds and other things without being able to communicate," Ward said. "It's possible Terri was aware of everything being done to her – yet could do little to make people aware that she was there."

    Ward pointed out that major damage to Schiavo's brain was shown to be toward the back – the areas that affect motor skills.

    So the question remains, says Ward, was Terri Schiavo still a thinking, aware human being?

    In fact, neuropathologist Nelson, whose assessment is included in the report [in the autopsy, Nelson was Thrognmartin's assistant and brain expert in on the autopsy - B], conceded there is no way of determining through an autopsy whether a person was in a persistent vegetative state.
     
    747Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Mon, Jun 20, 2005, 08:25
    MITH's cut'n'paste from PFD trick isn't working for some reason but the stuff in the fine print is awesome!

    The autopsy says that no one had any evidence she had bulimia. No one had ever known her to purge. She had never admitted to anyone, not even Michael that she did. She had just eaten a large meal the night before she collapsed and
    circumstances of the evenings' activities would have made it difficult for Mrs Schiavo to purge the meal covertly. Thus it is reasonable to conclude that Mrs Schiavo's potassium level of 2.0 mmol/L measured after a period of ventricular fibrilation, ephinephrine, and fluid administration was an unreliable measure of her pre-arrest potassium level. Thus the main piece of evidence supporting a diagnosis of Bulimia Nervosa is suspect or, at least, can be explained by her clinical condition at the time of her blood draw.
    The PDF settings say specifically that they have disabled copying. If I can rig up an old scanner with OCR I'll see if I can work around that. We might have one laying around tho I've never used it.
     
    748Stuck in the 60s
          Dude
          ID: 274132811
          Mon, Jun 20, 2005, 09:08
    Baldwin:

    Hard to know where to start, but:
    How do you determine which source has dug hardest for the facts?

    It's hard to believe that the state of Florida has nothing better to do than review decade-old 911 tapes. How can they possibly defend taking action on something 15 years after the fact when, at the time, no one had a problem with it?

    Most of all, raise your hand if you want the state to determine whether your loved one lives or dies? I've never understood why conservatives aren't outraged by the very thought.

    Don
     
    749Judy
          Leader
          ID: 31010716
          Mon, Jun 20, 2005, 11:39
    No one tells the truth anymore, they would be destroyed. This is the year 2005. You don't have to tell the truth anymore it wouldn't be polictly correct. This is the age of lie and deny, you know rely on your 5th ammmendment to take the oath not to incriminant yourself. Let there be incremidation and no fault will lie down upon you, live your life as you see fit, to hell with other's, realize how much you count! But blessing's are bestowed without descrescion. 6 billion people here on earth, We keep God Busy, and yet we blame everything on stress, give no allowance to the truth, no reason to dig deep into ourselve's, Hey you can place alot of blame on me I deserve it. All I ever looked for in my life was for truth does it exist, NO! No it doesn't. So all of you smart educated people tell me why am I looking for something I know doesn't exist?
     
    750Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Mon, Jun 20, 2005, 14:45
    How do you determine which source has dug hardest for the facts? - Don

    That is easy as falling off a log.

    Empire Journal is finding out facts about this case that shock you out of your boots daily while the local scientology outlet, the StPetersburg Times keeps sugarcoating the official version of events crap and calling it caviar.
     
    751Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Mon, Jun 20, 2005, 15:24
    Empire Journal is finding out making up facts about this case that shock you out of your boots daily while the local scientology outlet, the StPetersburg Times keeps sugarcoating the official version of events crap and calling it caviar.

    the empire journal is hardly credible, and that's already been established.
     
    752Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 12:23
    Can anyone tell me what happened to the 'Rise of Euthanasia' [part one] thread? Might it still be on the other server? I have gone back twelve pages and it doesn't control f for me.
     
    753Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 12:25
    we euthanized it, per its request.

    there's a cool feature called "search" at the bottom of the main page...
     
    754Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 12:30
    Thanks 8]
     
    755sarge33rd
          ID: 344362512
          Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 12:51
    a week of firsts...

    we all agree for once, that scientology svcks.
    we all agree for a 2nd time, the scotus eminent domain ruling svcks.
    over a 7 minute timeframe, tree and boldwinn posted to each other, w/o insults!


    *looking about Austin Tx for the apparently inevitable glacial presence.*
     
    756Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 02:29
    Main and key question Hannity asked Mark..."Do you think there's enough evidence to start a grand jury investagation into the case and into michael shiavo?"...Mark's answer..."Absolutely"...
     
    757Tree
          ID: 215341418
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 06:55
    Main and key question Hannity asked Mark..."Do you think there's enough evidence to start a grand jury investagation into the case and into michael shiavo?"...Mark's answer..."Absolutely"...

    1. it's hannity. consider the source. another in a long line of republican icons who know just what the fools want to hear.

    2. mark who? source where?
     
    758Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 09:14
    Mark Fuhrman.
     
    759katietx
          ID: 45522117
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 09:40
    Here's the link 'ya wanted Tree

    Furhman's book is out!!!

    Wow! He must have been the fly on the wall to answer all those questions.
     
    760Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 10:37
    because Mark Furhman is an expert how?
     
    761katietx
          ID: 45522117
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 11:49
    I'm clueless Tree. I suppose it comes from his excellent handling of the OJ investigation. ;-)
     
    762Tree
          ID: 9362211
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 13:15
    "if the case is $hit, you must acquit.."
     
    763Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 14:27
    Tell it to Michael Skakel.

    Next Michael...
     
    764Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Mon, Jul 04, 2005, 15:40
    The first time Gibbs visited Terri Schiavo was in 2003, and he was nervous and unsure of what to expect.

    "What I saw completely blew me away," Gibbs said. "Terri Schiavo was as alive as any person sitting here."

    He said Terri recognized people, and he believes she could feel things and had emotions and therefore she was not in a vegetative state, as Michael Schiavo believed.

    "Walking in, it was striking," Gibbs said. "Terri had definitely taken a very bad turn."

    He said her breathing had turned into a "death pant," she looked skeletal, had dark circles under her eyes, her skin was flaky and spotted from dehydration and her mouth was dry.

    He described how painful it was to watch her mother cradling her daughter and telling her not to fight it, while crying.

    "That is something no mother should ever have to see," Gibbs said.

    Gibbs said he saw Terri turn her head toward her mother, open her eyes and start crying herself.

    "Nobody got to go into the room," he said, referring to the heightened security that kept the media from documenting Schiavo's health. "I feel like there's an injustice in that the media and America never got to see what I got to see."
     
    765Boldwin
          ID: 543312819
          Fri, Jul 08, 2005, 17:20
    Beyond the bone scan that showed she had been knocked around as if by a mack truck...

    Beyond the neck injuries that reminded one of her four doctors of nothing so much as a former strangulation case of his...

    Now we have the blood work analysis...that suggests strangulation...

    [Site does not allow cut-n-paste]
     
    766Tree
          ID: 3762776
          Sun, Jul 10, 2005, 22:10
    Beyond the bone scan that showed she had been knocked around as if by a mack truck...

    Beyond the neck injuries that reminded one of her four doctors of nothing so much as a former strangulation case of his...


    and none of this came to light in the autopsy??

    yet, the empire journal digs deeper!! what a farce.
     
    767Baldwin
          ID: 14358177
          Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 15:37
    Organ Harvesting Before "Brain-Death" Increasingly Common, Concerned Doctors Warn
    Warning that changing definition of death will eventually lead to organ harvesting from disabled
    By Gudrun Schultz

    WASHINGTON, D.C., March 21, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) -

    Organ harvesting from patients before brain-death has been declared is a rapidly increasing trend in U. S. hospitals, the Washington Post reported March 18, alarming doctors and ethicists about the dubious ethics behind the practice.

    Instead of waiting until brain function ceases and the patient is declared "brain-dead" by medical officials (itself a questionable practice since there is no universally-accepted definition of brain-death) surgeons have begun following an approach known as "donation after cardiac death." Organs are harvested once the heart has stopped beating and several minutes have passed without the heart spontaneously re-starting.

    "The person is not dead yet," said Jerry A. Menikoff, an associate professor of law, ethics and medicine at the University of Kansas. "They are going to be dead, but we should be honest and say that we're starting to remove the organs a few minutes before they meet the legal definition of death."

    "Non-beating heart" organ donations have more than doubled since 2003, from 268 to more than 605 in 2006, and the numbers are continuing to rise. The United Network for Organ Sharing and the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations now require all hospitals to evaluate the practice and decide whether or not to adopt it.

    The Alliance for Human Research Protection issued an alert Sunday warning that the policy is under consideration by hospitals without allowing for public input.

    "The race to catch-up to China's policy of live vivisection organ removal from prisoners is underway right here in the US where, the Post reports, the trend is expected to accelerate this year," the AHRP stated.

    "So far as we know, our right to informed consent--which means the right to say, NO--has been abrogated without so much as a public hearing!"

    While doctors normally wait five minutes after the heart has stopped before pronouncing death, more and more doctors are shortening the wait period to maximize the quality of the organs. Surgeons at the Children's Hospital in Denver, Colorado wait only 75 seconds after infants' hearts stop beating before removing the heart for transplant, according to the Post. The demand for usable organs is a powerful incentive to push back the ethical boundaries of harvesting policies, say alarmed physicians.

    "A lot of us are not particularly happy about cutting that line particularly close," said Gail A. Van Norman, an anesthesiologist and bioethicist at the University of Washington in Seattle.

    "It's worrisome when you stop thinking of the person who is dying as a patient but rather as a set of organs, and start thinking more about what's best for the patient in the next room waiting for the organs."

    While the National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine approved the practice as ethical so long as strict guidelines are followed, opponents say it is difficult to ensure patients are not being killed by over-eager harvesting, particularly in pediatric situations. Van Norman and others said the practice could put pressure on families to stop care prematurely, especially when doctors and nurses are caring for both the potential donor and potential recipient.

    David Crippen, a University of Pittsburgh critical-care specialist, told the Post he is concerned the changing definition of death will eventually lead to organ harvesting from the disabled.

    "Now that we've established that we're going to take organs from patients who have a prognosis of death but who do not meet the strict definition of
    death, might we become more interested in taking organs from patients who are not dead at all but who are incapacitated or disabled?"

     
    768Baldwin
          ID: 14358177
          Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 19:43
    I have this nightmare that as PD wakes midway thru their removing his organs he mumbles 'Do you have a better source, Baldwin?'
     
    769Tree
          ID: 03162517
          Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 20:42
    yea, because lord knows that the vast majority of the population is having their organs removed.

    even if an isolated case is true, it's just that, an isolated case.

    but, nonetheless, let me ask you a question, regarding this point in your article above:

    David Crippen, a University of Pittsburgh critical-care specialist, told the Post he is concerned the changing definition of death will eventually lead to organ harvesting from the disabled.

    so, if we can help cure the disabled through stem cell research, are you opposed to such research? and if so, does that not hold you responsible for the disabled having their organs harvested, as, you prevented them from being healed?
     
    770Baldwin
          ID: 14358177
          Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 20:57
    You don't start killing babies for spare parts when you can harvest adult stem cells without killing anyone.
     
    771Tree
          ID: 03162517
          Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 21:01
    no one's killing babies for spare parts.

    nice avoidance of the question. if the stem cell is available, are you suggesting we throw it away instead?
     
    772katietx
          ID: 323472012
          Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 21:17
    In essence he is, Tree, because according to him the stem cell shouldn't have been there in the first place.

     
    773Boldwin
          ID: 3363215
          Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 17:31
    Delaware legislature puts up resistance to euthanazia.

    It's a [non-binding I believe] resolution reaffirming that is immoral to withold nutrition and hydration from humans.

    This is in opposition to the Delaware courts which have awarded control of the case of the mother who wants to kill her daughter and did not award control to the father who wants to save her life.

    As I have stated, the courts appear to be opperating around the country on the principle of reaching to find the family member most likely to euthanize.

    Considering that the Schiavo case enshrined Nazi principles into American case law, I do not like the prospect of a courts vs a non-binding resolution impass.
     
    774Boxman
          ID: 571114225
          Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 17:48
    I just wonder what liberals would say if we started executing death row inmates by starvation.
     
    775bibA
          ID: 245423018
          Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 19:20
    By "we", do you mean yourself and Baldwin? I can just see it, the two of you rubbing your hands together, breathing heavily, glassy eyed, salivating in anticipation of the next one, and the next, and the next......
     
    776Boxman
          ID: 571114225
          Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 19:43
    I'm against the death penalty in favor of life in prison without the possibility of parole. I believe that's a worse punishment than a date with the electric chair.
     
    777Boldwin
          ID: 3363215
          Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 19:56
    You have no recollection of what I have posted about executions in Illinois, do you bibA?
     
    778bibA
          ID: 245423018
          Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 22:04
    You two seem to be against the death penalty. That is very inconsistant with so many I know on the right, which tells me that you can think for yourselves as individuals, which is of course a good thing.

    Apologies
     
    779Perm Dude
          ID: 54653420
          Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 14:19
    Baldwin certainly doesn't need me to back him up, but my recollection is that he is against the death penalty for several reasons, including the fact that it is directed and used for reasons apart from the crime.
     
    780Boldwin
          ID: 386359
          Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 23:37
    Yeah, to get corrupt prosecutors elected and re-elected. At least that's the way it works in Illinois.
     
    781Boxman
          ID: 571114225
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 05:49
    Bradley Whaley

    For nearly three years, his mother and father did nothing but "work, sleep and spend time with Bradley," she said.

    There was a chance his condition would improve. But it didn't. Infections kept landing him in a hospital. Finally, his family transferred him to the Hospice of Florida Suncoast, where Terri Schiavo died.

    They removed his feeding tube, and his mother lay in bed beside him. He died July 2.


    Another Disabled Young Person Dehydrated to Death in Terri Schiavo's Hospice

    Wesley J. Smith, a lawyer and critic of secular bioethics, wrote of the case that it illustrated the new medical ethics paradigm, based on "quality of life" criteria, in which patients who cannot speak or feed themselves are now at risk of being killed by dehydration.

    "For more than ten years I have been telling anyone who will listen that unquestionably conscious cognitively disabled patients are being denied sustenance in every state in this country--so long as no family member objects," Smith writes.
     
    782Tree
          ID: 860128
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 09:58
    meanwhile, Baldwin continues to defend his belief that it's ok to leave a perfectly healthy american in enemy hands at risk of that hostage's death.

    and Boxman is critical of a family's gut-wrenching decision to let a long-suffering child die.

    the hypocrisy shouldn't amaze me, but it does.
     
    783Boxman
          ID: 571114225
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 11:11
    the hypocrisy shouldn't amaze me, but it does.

    The bloodlust of the left shouldn't amaze me, but it does.

    We need to do better than starve to death the sick. I mean, fvck, a guy getting lethal injection has an alcohol swab rubbed on his arm first. How in the hell can you be in support of this?
     
    784Tree
          ID: 860128
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 12:02
    We need to do better than starve to death the sick.

    so, i guess you're for a national health care system, where we all get it for free?

    How in the hell can you be in support of this?

    it is a tragedy. a young man's life essentially snuffed out, left severely impaired, unable to care for himself in any way, shape or form, with no chance of getting better - rather, a long, slow, painful death was likely.

    i would not want to be a member of the family forced to make that decision, but eventually, that decision must be made.
     
    785bibA
          ID: 27620715
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 13:17
    Everyone needs to let their loved ones and heirs know their wishes in the event they find themselves in a position where they cannot care for themselves and are not cognitive.

    I may be in the minority, but I would not want to be left to die, either by dehydration, pulling the plug, whatever. One chance in a billion is still a chance.
     
    786Boxman
          ID: 571114225
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:10
    would not want to be a member of the family forced to make that decision, but eventually, that decision must be made.

    And the answer is.....?
     
    787Tree
          ID: 376361213
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 16:14
    really? you're asking that?

    again. i'm not surprised. your world is black and white, filled with absolutes and certainties.

    very obviously, it depends on the particulars of the situation.
     
    788Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:50
    'Sacredness of human life' vs 'quality of life' gradation.

    Tree like a scientologist...drop to level 2 and he goes all 'Ahkmed on you. Its 'respond or I keeeeell you'.
     
    789Tree
          ID: 376361213
          Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 20:51
    right. because i didn't just explain that it would depend on the very specifics of the situation.

    remember, you're the "there is only one way" guy. i'm all about looking at each situation individually, and then making a decision.

    you? you're all about the bully pulpit, and right or wrong, you are going to hammer your point home.

    you are a total farce, and a total fraud with nearly everything you claim to believe.
     
    790 Brad's Mom
          ID: 9691611
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 12:09
    'Tree', thanks very much for the compassion and intelligence you exhibit in your posts. None of you... NOT ONE... could possibly know what it felt like, to have to make that decision to let my beloved son return to his one true Father. Many, many doctors were consulted and all agreed that his brain activity had ceased. It was time to STOP modern medicine from improving his quantity of life... and doing absolutely nothing for the quality. Bradley's brain was so severely damaged from the anoxia that, eventually, what little brain function he had nearly 3 years ago, following his overdose, was gone. How can you people criticize a gut-wrenching decision that NO PARENT should ever have to be forced with, without first walking a mile in our shoes... better yet, without walking a mile in BRAD'S shoes... being trapped in a vessel with NO WAY OUT. We are a close family, and know how one another feels about being kept alive by artificial means when there is NO HOPE, whatsoever, of recovery. Our amazing son will be with us always... every minute of every day... but he no longer has to endure the pain and suffering of his posturing, due to the brain damage, or the spasms his body suffered, every moment of his life, for the past 2 years, 8 months.
     
    791biliruben
          ID: 52561217
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 12:35
    I'm sorry for your loss and pain, Brad's Mom. As a father, I can imagine it must have been a horrendously hard decision to make.
     
    792 Brad's Mom
          ID: 9691611
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 12:53
    Thanks very much for your compassion, biliruben. This was the single most difficult decision our family has ever made... or will ever have to make. Brad endured pain every day, as a result of the immense, irrepairable damage that his brain suffered. His overdose, the result of many years of abusing drugs & alcohol, resulted in a state of unconsciousness. At some point, he vomited and, because he had passed out, he then aspirated vomit into his lungs and, essentially, drowned on his own vomit.

    It's amazing to me, how very easy it seems to be, for people to criticize and pass judgment when it's happening to SOMEBODY ELSE. Until you are the one going through the situation, you cannot imagine the pain.
     
    793Boxman
          ID: 337352111
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 13:58
    Brad's Mom: I am a father and while I did not lose a child in the way you have my wife and I lost one in the womb and it crushed us for quite some time. We still talk about him/her and I look forward to the day I get to see my unborn child in Heaven. We are a couple years removed from that disaster and there's still no talking about it without getting emotional; even with this post.

    My sadness as it relates to your son is that I perceive convicted felons getting more humane treatment at the end of their lives versus completely innocent people like your son.

    Without understanding your situation and the apparent lack of options, I would like to ask you a question, do you believe the way the medical community ends life could be improved?
     
    794Tree
          ID: 3533298
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 15:44
    wow. you condemn PD for his comments about Tony Snow in the other thread, and then here you are, telling a mother who just had to make the most impossible decision a parent could ever have to make that she was involved in treating her son worse than a man sentenced to die.

    nice, real nice.

    this woman is in mourning. her son, suffering from incredible brain damage and incredible pain, is finally put in a better, more comfortable, more restful place, and you tell her that she treated her kid worse than a death row convict would be treated.

    wow.
     
    795Boxman
          ID: 337352111
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 15:50
    As if you even care Tree. Weren't you the one mocking Schiavo? I remember Boldwin remarking something about you doing that.
     
    796Perm Dude
          ID: 386551611
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 15:55
    I didn't get that at all in Boxman's post, Tree. Respectful is how I'd put it.
     
    797 Brad's Mom
          ID: 9691611
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 16:33
    I wasn't, in any way, offended by Boxman's comments. I cannot imagine the pain of losing a child in utero... the joy of finding out you have created a life, followed shortly thereafter by the tragedy of discovering that the unborn child is not to be, must be painful beyond words. Never having experienced that, I can only imagine.

    You are 100% correct when you say that convicted felons receive better treatment... a life-saving surgery for someone on death row?!?!... an alcohol swab on an arm before the lethal injection is administered?!?!... ARE YOU KIDDING ME??

    Let me also explain something about our specific situation. Yes, Brad's feeding tube had been removed... but only 5 days prior to his passing. HE DID NOT STARVE TO DEATH. We had known for a month, or so, that he was very ill and that his body was beginning to shut down. He had been hospitalized for 8 days, and was released to return to his nursing home. Not even 1 week later, we saw that his urine looked like rusty water again, and knew that he was facing more hospitalization. He was running high fevers (102-103.7) and the doctors told us it was time to bring Hospice in... that the end was near. We met as a family and, yet again, discussed what BRAD would want us to do. Brad was a 'whirling dervish'... the life of the party... never still unless he was sleeping (and even then he moved all over!). We KNEW all along what Brad's wishes were; we had, quite simply, ignored what we knew he would want for 2 years and 7.5 months because WE WANTED HIM TO REMAIN. It was NOT MEANT TO BE. We contacted Hospice, their team of doctors spoke with our team of doctors, and all agreed... it was time to Let Go and Let God. We moved him to the Hospice facility late on a Friday, and the following Tuesday Brad seemed to no longer be urinating, and his fever spiked back up to 103. The following morning, with his father sitting next to him and his brothers at the foot of his bed, I laid next to him and held him as he took his final breath.

    Do I believe the medical community could find a better way to end life for those in situations similar to ours? Of course I do. Do I know what that 'better way' is? No I do not.

    I only know that I would not wish the past 2 years and 8 months of my life on ANYONE... including my very worst enemy.
     
    798Tree
          ID: 3533298
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 17:28
    i stand corrected with my assertion regarding boxman. apologies to anyone i may have offended.

    Brad's Mom - thanks for explaining the situation, as you and your family were dealing with a gut-wrenching decision.

    it is awful to see blogs and such on the internet use situations like yours to further their own cause, and it bothers me to no end that people like boxman and baldwin use those blogs to further their own points on the issue - hence my post earlier.

    thank you for bringing the very real human aspect of your situation to our little corner of the interwebs.

    even though this is "just a message board" (and one, mostly about fantasy sports at that), every so often we get hit with real life as we discuss this issues. This is one of those moments, and for me, it is truly fascinating (and heart breaking) to see the words of someone dealing with this first hand.

    it sounds like you have a lot of strength as family, so please, keep that strength.
     
    799Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 20:21
    I know one family who 'chose life' in the situation of doctors advising against life and another who didn't. One a child very disabled by the father's prior drug use [not even close to being able to communicate] and another I worked with who chose to 'acceed to her father's written wishes' and the wishes of his doctor and starved/dehydrated her father to death tho he looked her in the eye and told her, 'honey if you don't give me something to drink I'll die'.

    No one says the decision isn't gut wrenching or painful in the extreme.

    I find the first case noble. The second case, just tragic.
     
    800Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 20:25
    In fact I watched the Bears win the superbowl in '85 in the home of the first case, back when the child was still alive. He did die maybe eight years thereafter of natural causes or whatever you call it in his case.
     
    801Tree
          ID: 206481618
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 20:33
    One a child very disabled by the father's prior drug use [not even close to being able to communicate]

    which, doesn't sound at all, as extreme as the situation that Brad was in.
     
    802Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 20:53
    He spasmed. He couldn't tell us why...pretty similar.
     
    803Seattle Zen
          ID: 29241823
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 01:14
    So let me see if I have this straight.

    He spasmed. He couldn't tell us why...pretty similar.

    You are saying that there is this boy who had "spasms" which he couldn't explain, and that certain doctors were advising that he should be "euthanized". Are you serious? You actually believe that there are groups of doctors and judges who are out there eager to put down kids with simple spasms?

    And then you say that this kid's condition is "pretty similar" to a man who has been brain dead for three years? How can you be that delusional?
     
    804 Brad's Mom
          ID: 9691611
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 11:33
    Boldwin... I fail to see any relative similarities between your examples and our son. Perhaps you might want to go back and re-read my previous post, regarding Brad's condition and his subsequent passing.
     
    805sarge33rd
          ID: 99331714
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 12:02
    Of all things, a line from a movie (LoTR to be exact) seems strangely appropriate here; "No parent should ever have to buy their child."

    In an ideal world, where "right and just" always wins, such would be the case. In this one however, it just isn't that simple, that easy or that clear. My parents buried 3. I can not BEGIN to fathom their loss. Nor, can I begin to fathom the sense of loss, futility and grief experienced by Brads Mom and family/friends. In all honesty, I sincerely hope that I NEVER can understand, for to do so would literally mean having to be there myself.

    For my part, I want no part of being kept "artificially" alive. If my brain activity ceases, then pull the plug and le me go. It's what I want, it's what i've stated and it's what is written.

    To Brad's Mom...you and yours, have my deepest, most sincere condolences.
     
    806Boxman
          ID: 337352111
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 12:06
    Brad's Mom: Thank you for your contributions to this thread. Without prying, could you explain the how/why behind the 2 years and 8 months it took to end your son's suffering?

    Were you led to believe he could recover? Obviously this was a decision that is beyond heartwrenching and excruciating in it's scope. This is also a situation that no one should be put in. Was there a lot of back and forth with the family? Understandably there may have been because who in their right mind wants to see a family member die.

    Where I'm going with this is that I really think everyone should have a living will and I'm just trying to see how much suffering we could end if we truly knew what people's wishes are.
     
    807Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 12:16
    Let's just say this kid was far less cognizant of his surroundings than Terri Schiavo. Like zero. But he was a human.
     
    808Perm Dude
          ID: 24629177
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 12:27
    Even the dead are human, Baldwin.
     
    809 Brad's Mom
          ID: 9691611
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 13:52
    (This is a long one, but explanatory of our nightmare.)

    On the morning of 11/3/05, my husband came home from work to find our 22-yr old son unconscious from an accidental overdose of drugs & alcohol. At the point of (or shortly after losing) consciousness, he vomited, aspirating vomit into his lungs resulting, basically, in a drowning. Due to the vomit and matter in his lungs, the first responders on-scene were unable to intubate him; therefore, precious moments were lost accessing an airway and restoring oxygen and blood flow to his brain… until he was in the emergency room of the hospital. We were told, by the E.R. doctors, that he had been ‘down’ too long… without oxygen to the brain for too long a period of time… that, most likely, he would not survive the first 24-hours or, if he did somehow survive, he would never be ‘Brad’ again.

    After 6 weeks in the hospital, he was released; the hospital could do nothing further for our son, but he would require round-the-clock care. From the beginning, we had an extremely difficult time even finding a facility that would accept him due to his age and/or the fact that, at the time, he was uninsured and awaiting the approval of state assistance (Medicaid). After making contact with 60+ facilities, we finally found one that would take him.

    My husband and I were with Brad every day, and were very involved in his care. My husband (a tractor trailer driver) is on the road all night; he would come home from work in the morning, changes his clothes and take the ‘morning shift’… spending approximately 4-5 hours doing range-of-motion exercises and caring for his needs (changing him, etc.), before going home to get some sleep. I arrived after work, remaining with him until 10-11 p.m., caring for his needs and making sure he was freshly bathed & powdered each night before I left. (As babies, our sons were always freshly bathed & powdered before bedtime; it was one of my favorite times of the day… I felt very close to them.)

    We never heard his beautiful voice again, nor could he respond to direct commands but, in the beginning, could move his arms and legs, open his eyes, listen to the radio & television; there was a period when he truly seemed to hear and recognize when we were with him. Sometimes, you would swear that he was SO ready to just open his mouth and say something, but only a moan or whimper or cry would come out. It seemed, at times, as if he would respond to my voice when I entered his room, and to his father's voice as well... he would be very calm until hearing our voices, at which point he’d begin to whimper and thrash his left arm all around.

    In 2006, Brad had an intrathecal pump implanted in his (L) abdominal region, for the continuous delivery of anti-spasmodic meds to his system… to help control the non-stop, excruciatingly painful spasms his body suffers... a direct result of his brain injury. I spent countless hours contacting hospitals and healthcare professionals, trying desperately to find a clinical trial or drug study that might accept Brad into one of their studies; however, every time we’d began the preliminary questions for any trial or study, Brad was disqualified… we are never told why… just that he did not ‘fit the criteria’.

    We held out hope for sooo very long that his condition would improve and, instead, watched as he slowly deteriorated and (literally) withered away from us. He began this nightmare at a strapping 205 pounds and ended at 122. We had been told that the brain has a way of ‘re-routing’ around damaged areas… would we be fortunate enough to have that happen??? The answer, sadly, was No… Brad’s damage and, apparently, his ‘down time’ (without oxygen) was so severe that MRI’s and other diagnostic tests on his brain showed near-empty chambers, with very little activity, to no activity at all.

    We battled health problems too numerous to list, including hospitalizations for sores resulting from the prolonged insertion of a catheter (eventually having a catheter surgically inserted directly into his bladder), bladder stones, constant urinary tract infections, issues with his lungs, and sepsis. His limbs eventually became grotesquely contorted, the spasms increased both in frequency and in severity and he, literally, seemed to forget how to eat, drink, or swallow. He would no longer turn his head toward a familiar voice; his hours spent sleeping now outnumbered those when he was awake, and he would run high fevers for no apparent reason. The bottom line is… we were losing the battle… and losing our son.

    Because Terri Schiavo happened in our city, as a family we had numerous discussions on our feelings about her situation. We all agreed that we would NEVER want to live, or be kept alive, with no cognizance or awareness of our lives; little did we know that our feelings would soon be put to such a painful test. When, after 2 years, 7.5 months, the doctors told us that it was time for Hospice to become involved, we knew that the war was ending… and we had lost our baby boy.
     
    810Tree
          ID: 3533298
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 14:40
    box -

    Where I'm going with this is that I really think everyone should have a living will and I'm just trying to see how much suffering we could end if we truly knew what people's wishes are.

    no question, but in the absence of such a thing, shouldn't those closest to the person - i.e. family members - make such awful decisions, as opposed to complete strangers who would not only decide for them, but judge them as well?

    Brad's Mom - thank you again. it's something i can't imagine, and something i hope i never have to experience.
     
    811Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 15:37
    What is that supposed to mean to this discussion? Euthanazia doesn't matter because they aren't losing their humanity when they die? Wow.
     
    812Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 15:38
    Re: 808.
     
    813Boldwin
          ID: 406201020
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 15:44
    A) Terri Schiavo was cognizant. Too many time specific reactions to dismiss. Too many nurses testifying to that fact at the cost of their jobs.

    B) I am not arguing for heroic measures. I am arguing against starving and dehydrating to death patients who are otherwise not dying.
     
    814Perm Dude
          ID: 24629177
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 16:36
    According to her autopsy, Schiavo had "irreversible brain damage that left that organ discolored and scarred, shriveled to half its normal size, and damaged in nearly all its regions, including the one responsible for vision..."

    People saw what they wanted to see, but the cold facts remain that her brain simply wasn't able to do the things people attributed to her in her last months.
     
    815 Brad's Mom
          ID: 9691611
          Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 16:54
    People will always see what they WANT to see... or what they BELIEVE they see, based on their viewpoints and beliefs. But, until you have walked in the other person's shoes, you simply cannot pass judgement... the BIG GUY upstairs is the only one entitled to do that.

    Tree & Sarge33rd... your compassion and kind words are much appreciated.

    Thank you, Lord, for entrusting Bradley to us for nearly 25 years; it was truly a privilege to be his parent... he is missed every moment of every day, and I look forward to the day when we are reunited. Until that day, I will forever miss seeing him walk in the front door, come straight over to me, kiss my cheek or forehead and say, "Hello, My Beautiful Mommy!"
     
    816Boldwin
          ID: 541042014
          Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 19:35
    She actually was once sentenced to death by hospital and government...

     
    817Boldwin
          ID: 2033111
          Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 13:25
    The culture of death spreads and the killings go on.
     
    818Boxman
          ID: 3821468
          Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 13:41
    And that's a serious problem. It doesn't say anything good about us as a country to tolerate death and the loss of life like we do. Whether its abortion, Schiavo, or capital punishment, what does it say about us that we are willing to tolerate these things?

     
    819Tree
          ID: 61411921
          Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 14:03
    meanwhile, you cheer on the death penalty, the war in iraq, and the torture of people not charged with any crime.

    doesn't say anything good about us at all.
     
    820Mith
          ID: 2894309
          Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 14:13
    Capital punishment = death penalty.
     
    821Boxman
          ID: 3821468
          Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 14:31
    Thank you to Mith for pointing that out. I am not in favor of captial punishment. As I've stated elsewhere, I do not want our government in the death business unless we are at war.
     
    822Tree
          ID: 61411921
          Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 14:33
    sorry. it was more of a collective "you". wasn't meant to single you out on that boxman, because i am aware you've posted your thoughts on the death penalty.
     
    823Boxman
          ID: 3821468
          Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 14:35
    What do you mean collective "you" then? What were you even talking about? What are you trying to say?
     
    824Boldwin
          ID: 376192015
          Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 19:22
    Outrageously high and unnecessary error rate in diagnosis:
    LABELS matter. Indeed, they can be the difference between life and death. Someone lying in a hospital bed labelled “minimally conscious state” will be kept on life support indefinitely. If the label says “vegetative state”, however, that life support could be turned off any time. A layman might not be able to tell the difference. But a doctor can.

    Or can he? A worrying study just published in BioMed Central Neurology by Caroline Schnakers, Steven Laureys and their colleagues at the University of Liège’s coma science group suggests that perhaps he cannot—or, perhaps worse, that he prefers to use his intuition rather than the latest diagnostic techniques to tell the difference. As a result, many people may be at risk of early termination even when they show flickering signs that their consciousness has not departed entirely.

    Vegetative patients are those who show no signs of awareness whatsoever, and in many countries courts can consider petitions to withdraw their food and water, allowing them to die (as happened in a blaze of publicity in the case of Terri Schiavo, in Florida, a few years ago) and for their organs to be removed for transplantation. Patients who do show signs of awareness—those who are able to obey a command to blink or track a moving object with their eyes, for example—are by definition not vegetative and are spared this fate. There is some evidence that, unlike those in a vegetative state, these patients feel pain. Efforts are made to ease their suffering and to rehabilitate them.

    Distinguishing between these different kinds of coma patients has, everyone acknowledges, never been easy. Indeed, in 1996 Keith Andrews and his colleagues at the Royal Hospital for Neurodisability in London found that 40% of the patients in their hospital who had been diagnosed as being in a vegetative state, were not. But earlier this decade, two new tools became available, so things might have been expected to get better.

    Blink, and you may miss it
    One of the novel tools was a new diagnostic category, the minimally conscious state. This describes patients who are a shade better off than those in a vegetative state, because they show fluctuating signs of awareness. At certain times but not at others, for example, they are capable of passing the eyeblink test.

    The other new tool was the JFK Coma Recovery Scale. This consists of more than 20 clinical tests and is reckoned not only to enable doctors to distinguish patients in a vegetative state from those with minimal consciousness, but also to identify those who were previously in a minimally conscious state but have emerged from it. It is widely accepted as giving an accurate diagnosis of these conditions. But is it being adhered to?

    The work by the Liège team suggests not. They compared the diagnosis of 103 patients according to the consensus opinion of the medical staff looking after them with that determined by the coma recovery scale. Of the patients they looked at, 44 had been diagnosed by the staff as vegetative. The coma scale, however, disagreed. It suggested 18 of those 44 were in a minimally conscious state—the same error rate, around 40%, as Dr Andrews had found 13 years earlier in London. It also suggested that four of the 40 patients whose consensus diagnosis was “minimally conscious state” had actually emerged from that state. Although their doctors had not noticed it, these patients were now capable of communicating.

    Dr Laureys’s measured conclusion is that neurologists do not like their skills to be replaced or upstaged by a scale. Minimally conscious state being a relatively new diagnosis, he says, it may be that some doctors are unfamiliar with its criteria, but that is all the more reason for deferring to the coma recovery scale. The trouble with a diagnosis based on conviction rather than measurement is that it is vulnerable to external influence. Insurance companies, for example, prefer a diagnosis of vegetative to one of minimally conscious, Dr Laureys says, because no expensive rehabilitation is required for those in a vegetative state.

    It is all very disturbing. Admittedly, the Liège study is but a single piece of research. But if it were duplicated elsewhere, that would raise questions about how some of the most vulnerable patients in the medical system are being treated, and how seriously some doctors take the tools that science works hard to deliver to them.
     
    825Boldwin
          ID: 0514250
          Fri, Jun 25, 2010, 01:14
    'I am somebody'

    Indeed a life worth living.
     
    826Boldwin
          ID: 316571317
          Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 20:14
    Another life saved by Terri Schindler's fight for life.
     
    827Perm Dude
          ID: 5510572522
          Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 21:04
    Her name was Terri Schiavo. I know you don't respect the decisions she made while she was capable of making them, but don't disrespect the name she chose to take on.
     
    828Boldwin
          ID: 166451321
          Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 23:38
    I'm disrespecting the man who abused her in her last days and denied her the therapy the court awarded her.

    And she made no such decision unless you believe the word of the people who deliberately picked Dr Death Cransford as her doctor.
     
    829Perm Dude
          ID: 5510572522
          Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 00:34
    Nonsense. You've been disrespecting her wishes since you realize they conflicted with your own.

    She took the name Terri Schiavo. Calling her anything else merely highlights that she is a tool for your political aims.
     
    830Frick
          ID: 5310541617
          Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 08:48
    I like the comparison to Shiavo, to bad the article fails to mention what the actual injury was. The article mentions it vaguely as a brain injury, but does not give more details.

    But, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to comment. Boldwin will never change his mind, and while he is a huge proponent of personal freedoms, he only wants personal freedom that fits into his view of morality.
     
    831sarge33rd
          ID: 1964421
          Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:30
    ...while he is a huge proponent of personal freedoms, he only wants personal freedom that fits into his view of morality.

    I fear Frick, that such a descriptor would apply to FAR too many on the politicala Right these days. (At least, as far as it concerns the driving forces behind the RNC)
     
    832Boldwin
          ID: 166451321
          Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:49
    Yeah, the freedom to murder babies and the disabled doesn't fit my morality nor is it the proper role of government to defend that 'freedom'.
     
    833DWetzel
          ID: 53326279
          Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:53
    link
     
    835Boldwin
          ID: 49030519
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 15:54
    It really didn't take them long to go from killing the disabled Schiavo and killing pre-natal babies...

    ...all the way to comfortably advocating murdering newborn babies.
    Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are “morally irrelevant” and ending their lives is no different to abortion, a group of medical ethicists linked to Oxford University has argued.

    The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.

    They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”

    Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.

    “We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.”

    As such they argued it was “not possible to damage a newborn by preventing her from developing the potentiality to become a person in the morally relevant sense”.

    The authors therefore concluded that “what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”.
    From the pages of Sarge's playbook:
    The journal’s editor, Prof Julian Savulescu, director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics, said the article's authors had received death threats since publishing the article. He said those who made abusive and threatening posts about the study were “fanatics opposed to the very values of a liberal society”.

    Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he added: “This “debate” has been an example of “witch ethics” - a group of people know who the witch is and seek to burn her. It is one of the most dangerous human tendencies we have. It leads to lynching and genocide. Rather than argue and engage, there is a drive is to silence and, in the extreme, kill, based on their own moral certainty. That is not the sort of society we should live in.”
    Yeah, the cheerful 'mass murder advocating' eugenics crowd are the warm and fuzzies. Anyone who could advocate protecting the lives of babies from these whackos, must just hate hate hate. Obviously Sarge and these guys are on the same tactics page.

    It's a complete moral inversion of common sense and decency. "May I kill your baby for you?" "You're welcome." "Let's get together for brie and chablis afterwards." Ther're baaack, 'civilized', charming, warm and fuzzy as ever, eugenics....back out from the shadows now that WWII vets are dying off.

    And you laffed and said that it wouldn't lead to this. Did you really believe that?
     
    836Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 16:28
    I'll agree with them that killing a newborn baby is not morally different than abortion....always looking for areas of agreement.
     
    837Tree
          ID: 17039238
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 17:31
    And you laffed and said that it wouldn't lead to this. Did you really believe that?

    a handful of people having an opinion does not necessarily lead to something happening.

    show some examples of this actually happening, and you'll see an incredibly large public outcry.

     
    838Boldwin
          ID: 49030519
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 17:35
    I didn't hear from you when Obama voted for post birth infanticide.
     
    839Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 17:51
    tree - in at least one abortion mill in the US it was happening.
     
    840Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 17:53
    Post natal abortions
     
    841Tree
          ID: 17039238
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:07
    MBJ - fine, i'll grant you that. but we both know that is an exception, rather than a rule. and if memory serves, when that story was first reported, people's reactions was that this was clearly murder, and imho, the work of a serial killer.

    it's obviously an extreme case. there aren't a whole lot of legitimate doctors who would find any acceptable reason to murder a baby that has been born.

     
    842DWetzel
          ID: 33337117
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:09
    Re: 839 and 840: Sure. Yes, something terrible happened. Now let's see the massive support from "the liberals" for that guy, because that's what we're actually talking about here vis a vis Boldwin's drivel in post 835.

    (Note, for instance, that the DA quoted in the article is a Democrat, according to his wiki page.)

    "My comprehension of the English language can't adequately describe the barbaric nature of Dr. Gosnell," he added.

    Williams said he might seek the death penalty for Gosnell, who with nine of his associates, including his wife, was arrested on Wednesday.


    Gee, that sure sounds like a ringing endorsement of the practice to me. Calling it "barbaric beyond comprehension" and seeking the death penalty for the guy is awfully close to sitting back and drinking chablis, I guess. Not exactly the same, but it's close.

    Hint: this guy was prosecuted for a series of crimes, by someone Boldwin tries to smear as all in favor of this stuff. That's a disgusting strawmanning lie, AND HE KNOWS IT. Let's not dignify the slander by blurring the point.
     
    843Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:17
    Dwetz - you're refuting my posts by telling me where Baldwin's wrong - now that's a strawman. If you want to cite my posts - how 'bout responding to what I say in them - not what someone else said in another post. I only answer for things I say
     
    844Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:19
    And here's my hint: I never said there was a ringing endorsement for the practice - my link was a direct response to tree - who requested an example of "this actually happening"
     
    845sarge33rd
          ID: 4717718
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:40
    Post 835 : From the pages of Sarge's playbook:

    Where in the sam hell did that come from? NEVER havce I advocated for the death of a born infant. You PoS.

    Withdraw your allegation, or your presence. Take your pick.
     
    846Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:42
    Hard to come up with a defensible argument that post natal abortions are any different than what these two Maryland doctors did - killing multiple viable babies in utero - at least one as late as 36 weeks.

    Anyone care to make a moral distinction? Be careful - because in these doctors' cases, it's not just their defense attorney's arguing they did nothing wrong.
     
    847sarge33rd
          ID: 4717718
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:44
    I have long advcated, terminating the option of abortion upon entering the 27th week. (the beginning of the 3rd trimester)

    I'll defend no case of abortion past that time, UNLESS; the mother's life was in jeopard from continuing the pregnancy/delivery.
     
    848Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:45
    "NEVER havce I advocated for the death of a born infant." He didn't say you did.
     
    849Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:46
    Post 846 should have read :Hard to come up with a defensible argument that post natal abortions are any different, morally.....
     
    850sarge33rd
          ID: 4717718
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 18:55
    re 848,

    from 835:

    Obviously Sarge and these guys are on the same tactics page.

    Yes he did.
     
    851Myboyjack
          ID: 36452617
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 19:02
    Geez- yes, he said you use the "witch ethics" tactic -or whatever the "tactics" were he was describing....not that you advocating killing babies.

     
    852Boldwin
          ID: 49030519
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 22:19
    Now let's see the massive support from "the liberals" for that guy.

    Deal with the fact that you are trying to put back into office a man who voted for post birth infanticide.

    Deal with the fact that Obama's favorite 'bioethicist', Rahm Emanuel's brother, is openly calling for infanticide.
     
    853Boldwin
          ID: 49030519
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 22:22
    The tactic is covering for evil by redefining traditional morals as hatred.
     
    854sarge33rd
          ID: 4717718
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 22:23
    How ignorant are you? I have already stated, I am not voting for, nor am I endorsing Obama for re-election. I;nm writing in Colin Powell, and urging others to do the sa,e.

    There isnt a GOP candidate currently running, I'd endorse for fkn County Treasurer, let alone President. Obama lost me, with his accepting and signing into law, National Defense Authorization Act of 2012.
     
    855Boldwin
          ID: 49030519
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 22:29
    I appreciate the NDAA stand and respect the principled stand.

    I have had the tactic used on me routinely so I don't take that comment back.
     
    856sarge33rd
          ID: 4717718
          Sat, Mar 03, 2012, 22:50
    blah blah blah
     
    857Boldwin
          ID: 49030519
          Sun, Mar 04, 2012, 14:45
    'I can't hear you', he explained.
     
    858sarge33rd
          ID: 4717718
          Sun, Mar 04, 2012, 15:18
    no, more like; you are making no more sense, than the blah blah sounds from the teacher in those old Charlie Brown cartoons.

    You drone on and on and on, and ignore all which you dont already buy into.
     
    859Boldwin
          ID: 2811321220
          Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 21:32
    China executing prisoners for organs-on-demand.

     
    860Boldwin
          ID: 49250106
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 07:54
    If you are over 70 Obama's death panel calls you a unit and if you come into the emergency room requiring neurosurgery [had a stroke for example] you will be denied all treatment but 'comfort care'.

    Brain surgeon calls into Mark Levin show describing what he has just been told about government [HHS] guidelines.

    Having had a happy 30 years with a stroke victim mother-in-law in my family [until she passed], I can tell you they aren't mere units that society should be denying care to.
     
    862Boldwin
          ID: 49250106
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 08:05
    The moral test of a government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; the twilight of life, the aged; and those who are in the shadow of life, the sick the needy, and the handicapped. - Hubert H Humphrey

    'Your' country died, Hubert. It's morally dead body has been put on the pathway of death.
     
    863Frick
          ID: 29235107
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 08:35
    Re: 860

    Your grandmother lived to 100? Congrats!
     
    865Bean
          ID: 5292191
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 13:06
    <862> Would Hubert disapprove of providing health care for the entire nation? Anyone may still opt for their own private insurance that provides "better" coverage.

    My brother works as a RN in intesive care. He talks of a common place occurence where relatives insist on keeping their loved ones alive despite ridiculously poor odds, ridiculously high levels of pain and ridiculously high expense because 1) the relative doesn't want to feel guilty and 2) they aren't footing the bill.

    He, and my two sisters in law who are also RNs, have also worked in Emergency rooms, where people who cannot afford insurance regularly show up for more routine procedures, because they cannot be refused service by law.

    To trivialize the magnitude of the difficulty to establish global care rulesets that are both humane and economical is just an exhibition of naivity.

    So many people have unrealistic expectations of socialized medicine, and are extremely quick to condemn efforts to provide it in any form. They don't offer solutions to make these tough life or death decisions. More often than not, they have zero expertise in the medical field as well. What could possibly be their agenda?
     
    866Biliruben
          ID: 358252515
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 14:16
    Yeah, boldy appears to be relieving in negative gotchas. Refusing to provide solutions and misrepresenting others attempts.

    No reason to engage with some opperating in that deep far extreme of bad faith.
     
    867Biliruben
          ID: 358252515
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 14:18
    Reveling, which gives us no relief.
     
    868Frick
          ID: 29235107
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 16:37
    Re: 866

    Were you referring to Boldwin, the Tea Party, or the GOP in general?
     
    869Boldwin
          ID: 132441017
          Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 18:51
    If you have a stroke at 70...

    All they'll give you is an asprin...

    They'll send the doctor home...or fine him into penury for not following their guidelines and they won't reimburse him.

    This is what I predicted. There is the doctor telling you that's what HHS told him.

    It's fair you guys get Obama-Un-Cared but not the rest of us who aren't responsible. It's not fair my doctor won't be allowed to practice medicine.
     
    871Frick
          ID: 29235107
          Tue, Mar 11, 2014, 09:58
    What exactly do you expect doctors to do when a person has a stroke?

    I remember my great-grandmother having a stroke during Thanksgiving one year and my mother and aunt (both nurses) sitting with her and not going to the hospital. There was nothing that the hospital was going to do, that they couldn't do at home. They checked her vitals and made sure that she didn't get worse. She lived for another 5 years after that, but her already limited movement became even more limited after the stroke and she had a much harder time speaking.

    Mortality is part of life. Doesn't being a Christian make you unafraid of the end of your living days?
     
    872Perm Dude
          ID: 431013412
          Tue, Mar 11, 2014, 10:02
    Most of the Right are in complete denial about end-of-life care, and costs. In fact, that's how the whole "death panels" meme began: A complete misunderstanding of how Obamacare was going to pay for non-emergency doctor visits where end-of-life care options would be discussed.
     
    873biliruben
          ID: 7751279
          Tue, Mar 11, 2014, 10:07
    I can only assume by there constant exhortations of fear of this, that and the other thing, that most Tea baggers have an excess of those chemicals coursing through their brains. There aren't any lions behind the bush over there to actually be afraid of any more, so they have to make stuff up to be afraid of.
     
    877Boldwin
          ID: 172411512
          Sat, Mar 15, 2014, 13:44
    When your politician or your doctor starts out telling you, 'Ya'know, mortality is a part of life'...find another one. It's not their job to sell you on the idea.
     
    878sarge33rd
          ID: 390471112
          Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 01:46
    No realism in your life view is there B?
     
    879Boldwin
          ID: 593212312
          Thu, Apr 24, 2014, 11:14
    The heart of liberals explained. An excuse to control, any excuse will do.

    There is not enuff _____ to go around. Let us elites control who gets _____ and who gets crushed.

    Food, power, air, land.

    Never a shortage of contributors to that campaign.
     
    880Bean
          ID: 5292191
          Thu, Apr 24, 2014, 12:26
    Believe it or not, I listened to the entire thing. More Malthusian conspiracy theories, Baldy? World overpopulation is a myth? Climate change is a farce? The leaders of the left and the right are actually in cahoots to wipe us all out? They are both actually Nazis? Aborting downs babies is what? I am not sure, but it just aint right. Coupling relief aid to birth control is genocidal? International ban on DDT was simply an excuse to allow certain races to die of malaria and typhus?

    Anyone who doesn't agree with my position has to be trying to take over the world, right? If you aren't scared shitless of some impending apocalypse, then you aren't alive, right? Do you have PTSD, man?

    That show was like listening to a science fiction story, very entertaining. I liked the children's stories of Chicken Little, and the boy who cried wolf too. You should watch the H2 channel's series Americas Book of Secrets, it's a hoot.

    Oh and BTW, I was sent here by the CIA, the trilateral commission, the Templars, and the Masons to torment you. They told me if i didnt do it, they would kill my entire family.
     
    881Boldwin
          ID: 543302413
          Thu, Apr 24, 2014, 14:30
    You, Sarge and Tree are the trilateral commission.
     
    882Bean
          ID: 5292191
          Thu, Apr 24, 2014, 14:45
    prolly so
     
    883Tree
          ID: 521101115
          Thu, Apr 24, 2014, 20:54
    Better than being the unilateral ass Clown.
     
    884sarge33rd
          ID: 390471112
          Fri, Apr 25, 2014, 00:19
    now you done it Bean. You said "Masons". Boldy has been absolutely certain am a secret Mason, and have been for years. Even though I was a vocal Atheist, up until 4 years ago.
     
    885Boldwin
          ID: 505151321
          Fri, Jun 13, 2014, 23:06
    You can't make this stuff up.





    "Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up above, because there's bugger-all down here on earth."

    Imagine you are at an elite university and 'your colleges' are discussing their inhuman plans for 30 years hence. Must be mind-blowing. Kinda like Obama listening in to the concentration camp plans of his Columbia professors. Or like Monty Python actors in their fancy elitist college days. Shrewsbury, Oxford, Cambridge, Cambridge, Cambridge, Oxford.