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| Posted by: Mattinglyinthehall
- [428299] Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 12:13
Christian Science Monitor 1,000 die per day: Why isn't it a media story? By Andrew Stroehlein BRUSSELS - It's a maxim that what people aren't talking about is always a favorite topic of conversation. But it will make your head spin when applied to the media and the most deadly conflict in the world today. Western media generally do not cover the ongoing war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but a media story is currently developing around the Congo - focusing, paradoxically, on how the conflict is not a media story. I've lost count of how many journalists in the recent weeks have asked me, "Why aren't the media covering the Congo?" With an estimated 1,000 people dying there every day as a result of hunger and disease caused by war, it is an appropriate question. But the extent of this coverage of noncoverage is reaching the absurd: print, radio, TV, Internet - they all want to know why they themselves are not writing articles and broadcasting programs about the Congo. And it is not just me noticing this. In March, Reuters even held a seminar on "forgotten crises," at which the Congo topped the list, and on BBC World Service the other day, I heard a newscaster ask: "Shouldn't this be getting more attention?" Indeed. What the world media are missing is one of the deadliest conflicts since World War II: 3.8 million people have died in the Congo since 1998, dwarfing not only the biggest of natural catastrophes, such as December's South Asia tsunami, but also other manmade horrors, such as Darfur. Congo's situation is complicated - any war on such a scale would be - but the outlines of the current stage of the conflict are straightforward enough for any journalist to summarize. After four years of civil war (a free-for-all in which eight neighboring countries played a part) a transitional government was established in Kinshasa, the capital, in 2003. Since then, the warlords-turned-politicians who dominate the transition, each of whom still maintains his own militia, have vied for political advantage and access to the country's vast economic resources. None is above using violence as a means to stay in power and resist the integration of the country, and that violence looks set to get worse in the run-up to elections, technically slated for this month, though certain now to be postponed - a delay that in itself may cause significant unrest. The deadly game has one particularly poisonous wild card: the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda (FDLR), a key rebel group in the eastern Congo that regularly attacks civilians. Because the FDLR has its origins in the Hutu extremists who slaughtered 800,000 people in the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Rwanda has a pretext to invade its neighbor, which it has done at least twice in recent years and threatened to do again in April - a move that would undermine Congo's fragile transition and could reignite a regional war. With so many dying and so much at stake, it is simply astounding that Congo isn't in the newspapers and on nightly news regularly. Even a nonlethal car bombing in Iraq or a kidnapping in Afghanistan gets more Western media coverage in a day than Congo gets in a typical month of 30,000 dead. So much for the old TV news editors' saw, "If it bleeds, it leads." When the question is turned around - or pointed in the proper direction - and I ask the media why they are not covering the Congo, journalists usually respond with a sigh or a shrug. Field-hardened correspondents often tell me they'd like to go but can't convince their editors. News editors have long assumed "no one is interested in Africa," supposing their audience sees only hopeless African problems eternally defying solution and thus not worth attention. But solutions do exist for Congo: The linchpin to resolving the conflict is the creation of a unified and effective national army and the disarmament of the remaining ragtag forces that are the source of so much suffering. Both the Congolese Transitional Government and the Rwandan government are heavily dependent on outside aid, so if the international community would more closely condition its support on such concrete measures, it could bolster the transition process and decisively advance peace in the region. Sadly, such stories of potential solutions are no more reported in the Western media than stories of the country's current despair. Somewhat encouragingly, however, the old assumption about a lack of interest in Africa seems to be breaking down now. A new Zogby poll, conducted for the International Crisis Group, has revealed that 53 percent of Americans think the US doesn't pay enough attention to the problems of Africa. Darfur has managed to capture strong interest throughout the Western world, even inspiring grass-roots campaigns with extensive participation. Though the tsunami hit only a small part of Africa, the tsunami story has turned traditional news wisdom on its head in a similar way: surprising as it may seem to some news executives, people actually do care. Readers and viewers actually will be captivated by - and will even engage with - distant humanitarian disasters when they know about them. This is why the current coverage of Congo's noncoverage actually leaves me optimistic that the country might be the next distant disaster to capture broad media attention. The fact that so many journalists are now asking why the media aren't covering the Congo suggests we are coming to some kind of tipping point. Once they turn the question on themselves, the buzz will, let's hope, move on from the lack of coverage and start being the story itself. Fortunately, the UN has stepped in to try to curtail the atrocities. Washington Post 12/04Sexual exploitation of women and girls by U.N. peacekeepers and bureaucrats in the U.N. mission in Congo "appears to be significant, wide-spread and ongoing," according to a confidential U.N. report that documents cases of pedophilia, prostitution and rape. The report by a U.N. peacekeeping official who recently visited Congo says that some U.N. personnel paid $1 to $3, or bartered food or the promise of a job, for sex. In some cases, U.N. officials allegedly raped women and girls and then offered them food or money to make it look as if they had engaged in prostitution. Senior U.N. officials in New York said they have received 150 allegations of sexual abuse by U.N. personnel in Congo. The officials declined to provide names or nationalities of those charged with misconduct, saying they are under investigation. But U.N. officials familiar with the charges said that Tunisian and Uruguayan peacekeepers and a French civilian are among those accused of abuse. "The situation appears to be one of 'zero-compliance with zero-tolerance' throughout the mission," according to the Nov. 8 report, which summarizes the findings of a U.N. mission to the region led by Prince Zeid Hussein, Jordan's U.N. ambassador. "It appears that the most frequent form of sexual exploitation occurring in [the U.N. mission in Congo] relates to instances of prostitution with minors and adult women, with occasional instances of rape." The abuse in Congo mirrors previous scandals at U.N. missions in Cambodia and Bosnia, where U.N. police from the United States, Romania and many other countries were implicated in sexual crimes and misconduct. In contrast to those episodes, the United Nations has sought to confront the charges publicly and admitted that policies devised to combat those activities have failed. "I am afraid there is clear evidence that acts of gross misconduct have taken place," U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan said at a Nov. 19 summit in Tanzania. "This is a shameful thing for the United Nations to have to say, and I am absolutely outraged by it." The UN does have its largest peacekeeping presence on the globe stationed in Semocratic Republic of Congo, about 16,000. I've read several reports that the misdeeds from UN troops have continued after the supposed no tolerance policy was enacted, tho every article I've seen cites the same number of approximately 150 incidents. What about American assistance the region? Well, back in Feb 2001, in his very first month in the White House, President Bush met with Secretary Of State Powell and President Joseph Kabila of the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Chido Nwangwu, founder & publisher of USAfircaonline.com - who had previously been critical of what he said was "candidate Bush's ill-advised November 2000 pre-election view that Africa will not be an area of priority under his presidency" - was encouraged by the meeting and praised the new American president for his interest in the region.Bush-Powell initiative on the Congo good signal for U.S-Africa relations President George W. Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell's (picture right) decision to meet on Thursday, February 1, 2001, in Washington DC with the Democratic Republic of Congo's new president, Joseph Kabila (son of the recently murdered former president Laurent Kabila) holds several international policy implications, strategic meanings and politically symbolic values. -----------------------------------------------
First, as the world's most preeminent statesman and former president of South Africa Nelson Mandela said a few days ago, the unfortunate assassination of the senior Kabila offers a chance to rebuild Congo, stabilize the region and make peace.
Second, why is this important? The world is facing the specter of an impending, but avoidable reality that one of Africa's largest countries could implode and dismember in a couple of months. If the Congo disintegrates, the entire central Africa region, its neighboring 8 countries and major parts of southern Africa region will face catastrophic human and geopolitical complications. David Kilgour, Canada's secretary of state for Africa said recently that the Congo "is the center of gravity in Africa.... If things spin out of control here, who knows how many countries will be sucked into the whirlpool." To be sure, it will impact Uganda, the other Congo, Rwanda, Angola, Namibia, Zimbabwe and in part, South Africa; since the Congo's 51 million long-embattled citizens made up of 20 significant ethnic groups will, more than likely, vote with their feet.
Third, we should look at the events regarding the Congo from what I may call the show-me-the money foundations of international relations and diplomacy. Those would have, in part, compelled Bush's interest and rethink on Africa. Congo has abundant resources such as cobalt, petroleum, industrial and gem diamonds, gold, silver, germanium, uranium, radium, bauxite, copper, cadmium,, zinc, manganese, tin, iron ore, coal, timber and the luxuriant Congo River. Houston-based and other U.S. corporations are doing business inside and around the Congo's minerals rich fields. Congo has since 1938 captured the interests of rapacious Belgian colonialist, and the modern-day American and European corporations.
Fourth, it shows, however modest the steps, that Bush is open to learn about the realities of U.S. and Africa interests. The man did not allow pride or preconceived notions to halt an opportunity to open new doors into Africa rather than abandon the Congo, as the economic predators from colonial Belgium did.
Fifth, it validates my view the fact that Bush's international relations team lead by Colin Powell, an Africa-American of Caribbean roots, and Prof. Condoleezza Rice, another African-American, are not tokenist fixtures at the Department of State and National Security but professionals who seem capable of rising to the dynamics of a rapidly changing world. As I argued on December 18, 2000 on the Houston Chronicle Outlook page in a commentary titled 'Choice of Powell puts Africa on Bush's map', Powell is familiar with the African continent, and that most persons of African descent are hopeful that Powell will, as he has done in the past, elevate the issues that are important for his community and ancestry -- all within the global material interests of the U.S.
Finally, as a realistic advocate for Africa in the U.S., and as a student of international economic relations, I commend the Bush-Powell initiative on war-torn Congo as timely, appropriate and a clear signal of support for the reconstruction of the structures of peace and business in the region.
Recall that I had on CNN after the presidential elections criticized candidate Bush's ill-advised November 2000 pre-election view that Africa will not be an area of priority under his presidency. Hence, it is heartwarming that after his election as President, Bush's first major meeting with any leader of another country will be with a very young leader from Africa, the long-suffering, embattled continent, and heritage home for almost 32 million Blacks in America. With this latest move, Bush continues to surprise many; gradually but positively. Of course, I couldn't find any actual policies initiated by our government following that meeting.
Then in November 2003, Bush met again with Kabila at the White House."The president had a good and positive discussion with President Kabila," said McClellan. "The president reaffirmed our commitment to continue providing humanitarian assistance to relieve human suffering in the Democratic Republic of Congo." Bush, according to McClellan, pledged to the Congolese leader his continued attention to addressing the security problems plaguing eastern Congo. Kabila, in remarks to the press following his talks with Bush, said he too found the discussion to be productive and looks forward to working with Bush in the future. I wonder if Bush was thinking about that meeting on that day 5 months ago when Samuel W. Bodman was sworn in as Secretary of Energy. No, I'm not bringing him up to point out his status as one of the countries' most notorious toxic polluters and that his appointment to a position that is responsible for watching over the activities of our engery conglomerates is a sick joke. Common DreamsIn October 2002, Bodman’s former company came under fire when a United Nations Panel of Experts produced a report accusing the company, along with several other US corporations, of helping to fuel the wars in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) while he ran Cabot by purchasing coltan from Congo during the conflict and illegally plundering the country’s vast natural resources. Cabot has publicly denied the allegations in the UN report, but a report by the Belgian Senate states that Eagle Wings Resources International had a long-term contract to supply Cabot with coltan, which it too purchased from Congo during the war. Eagle Wings was also identified in the UN report as contributing to the war. In response, environmental Friend of the Earth United States (FOE) and the UK-based human rights group Rights and Accountability in Development (RAID) filed a complaint with the US State Department last August against Cabot and several other western corporations for its role in aiding the rebels in the Democratic Republic of Congo by conducting business there, essentially inadvertently aiding a violent conflict that contributed to widespread human rights abuses. AID an FOE filed a complaint with the U.S. State Department last August claiming Cabot and other western corporations having violated the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development’s (OECD) “Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises,” a set of international standards for responsible corporate behavior. The UN panel said in its report that a “three-year investigation found that sophisticated “elite networks” of high-level political, military and businesspersons, in collaboration with various rebel groups, intentionally fueled the conflict in order to retain control over the country’s vast natural resources. The Panel implicated many Western companies for directly or indirectly helping to fuel the war.” The State Department is the agency in charge of deciding whether US companies breach the OECD guidelines. Despite the allegations included in the UN report and the complaint filed by the two activist groups, the State Department has refused to launch an independent investigation into whether Cabot, under Bodman’s leadership, and the other US companies might have contributed to the war in the Democratic Republic of Congo. www.state.govThere is no current U.S. direct bilateral aid to the Government of the Congo. USAID’s 2004 program in the D.R.C. totals $120 million, which will be used by international and local NGOs for a wide range of relief and developmental activities throughout the country. And if you're like me, you might also wonder what Nwangwu's more recent opinion of US policy in Africa might be. Following Bush's refusal to sign on to Blair's call for doubling aid to Africa from rich nations to $50 billion a year over the next 10 years (Bush agreed to pledge $647mil in aid - from money that was already approved by Congress for humanitarian relief worldwide);"I don't think his action matches his rhetoric," said Chido Nwangwu, Houston-based publisher of USAfrica newspaper. " He had an opportunity to reposition the face of the United States as a humanitarian helper of less privileged and developing parts of the world. But he didn't live up to that — and sadly so." |
| | | 1 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 12:24
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Damn good stuff MITH. I'm tempted to cut and paste your whole post into a "guest blogger" piece on DPS.
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| | | 2 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 428299 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 12:25
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By all means
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| | | 3 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 13:23
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Done. Many thanks.
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| | | 4 | Tree
ID: 9362211 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 13:26
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good stuff indeed.
in the U.S., i think we're simply too pre-occupied with what people do in their bedroom, what they do with the Flag, and a war in a foreign country that never should have happened.
we really haven't advanced much in the past 35 years, have we? i feel like my above paragraph could reflect 1970, but sadly, it's referring to the present.
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| | | 5 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 19:16
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Tree: You'd be the first to bitch once a soldier got killed. Then we'd find out the people were actually thirsty and not hungry, then you'd trot out the whole "Bush Lied, They Died" pile of garbage.
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| | | 6 | sarge33rd
ID: 45522117 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 19:23
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as ever, a fine contribution to the thread.
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| | | 7 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 20:40
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Not that Tree's post was particularly poignant or insightful, but at least it was on topic, unlike your unprovoked shot at Tree's integrity. With all the whining and personal hostility toward other members that you bring here so often (much of it entirely unprovoked), I can't imagine that you think this forum is very valuable. I do think that most of the posts are from a left perspective. So what's your point in posting here at all, but especially in threads where none of your like-minded thinkers have bothered to show up? Just to antagonize?
So here's me trying to point you back toward the topic of the thread, CCP;
What's your opinion of Bush's handling of matters regarding African nations, especially DRC? What was your opinion of Bush having Joseph Kabila be the very first head of state he would entertain as POTUS? What was your opinion of Bush's claims of concern for poor African nations? What of his promise of continued commitment even as he was dealing with an insurgency and rising death toll in Iraq? What's your opinion of him as a man of his word on this matter? What's your opinion of the Bodman appointment? What of his response to Tony Blair's initiative, which we all know was likely crucial in determining the outcome of the effort?
If you choose to answer (and hopefully you can do so without calling Tree a liar or Sarge illiterate), allow me to provide your standard caveat for you right now - we all know that you are a Bush supporter and before you type a word I'm sure we are all well aware that despite any shortcomings that you might acknowledge in this area, that you are certain that (a) his accomplishments and virtues outweigh his faults and (b) that no Democrat could do any better. Noted. So now that we've got that out of the way in an efficient manner, we can get down to what you think of the issue at hand without all the pointless and off-topic justification that your ego requires you to type anytime you acknowledge the slightest flaw in President Bush. I eagerly await your response.
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| | | 12 | sarge33rd
ID: 45522117 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 21:40
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I eagerly await your response.
I do hope MITH, that you are not holding your breath in anticipation?!?
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| | | 13 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 21:44
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I don't have the time or interest to try to bring some rationality to the boards any more. I suspect you consider yourself a rational moderate/liberal voice. Your defence of Tree speaks more loudly than anything I could say about it. Your allowing Tree to get away with what he does speaks more clearly than anything I could add.
The posts by yourself and your fellow liberals/leftists and their tiresomeness speak for themselves as well. The implicit rules, or lack of rules, that you have tolerated, and encouraged by your tolerance, you will inherit.
Toral
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| | | 14 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 21:51
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For clarity: many posts have been deleted. 13 was directed to MITH as a response to posts he deleted, in response to a post I deleted.
"Let the dead bury their own dead." (Matt 8:22)
Toral
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| | | 15 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Wed, Jun 22, 2005, 23:00
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I deleted my posts because I thought better of a pissing contest. Foolish.
I couldn't possibly be less concerned with any assessments you make of me, especially given that volly of insults in your deleted post and that you're criticizing me here either for my failure to lambast my share of objectionable posts from Tree or for knocking an unprovoked attack - because the subject happened to be Tree.
You need another drink. Or a Midol.
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| | | 16 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 05:55
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Ok,
1) The thread header is MITH's best work ever and I'm damn proud this forum started a thread like that. It could well have been put in my media black hole thread becuase the media's ignoring Africa was the main thrust of the thread but the Congo really does stand out and deserves it's own thread.
2) The reason that the media refuses to cover Africa can only be one of three possibilities.
2A) Polk once claimed that his paper had proven that no one cares about this kind of story. I find this the least compelling reason and MITH's work would tend to back that up.
2B) Editors work for the power elite and the power elite want the freedom to rape and pillage Africa protected in a sheath of media silence. The whole continent is their banana republic and it has far more resources and oportunities for personal wealth building than any one crop South American mini-country ever did. Most African country's problems seem like disputes between European and American robber barrons and their mercenary armies rather than genuine issues the average African cares about. I find this the most compelling theory.
2C) CCP brings a perfectly valid third theory. Maybe the media doesn't want the issue raised because they are far more anti-war and anti-American intervention than they are pro-human rights in other countries. And I think this may even be a case of hidden racism on the part of the liberal media establishment.
3) If MITH's swipe was at me for not showing up [none of your like-minded thinkers have bothered to show up], and let's face it, CCP and I are the only unambiguously conservative regulars, then I would announce that I was absent the last 24+ hours because at 3:30 AM Wed morning I woke to discover a hacker running my computer remotely and my security efforts swung back from my previous anti-spyware war, back to traditional computer security issues. IE, I had let my McCaffey run out a while back. *blush* And I now have every product Norton makes hogging half my computer's resources and cludging up the other half.
My anti-hacker protection had earlier caught someone trying to insert a trojan. looks like they kept trying newer stuff till they got thru.
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| | | 18 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 06:51
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MITH: "Tree's integrity" - that's an oxymoron.
Are you saying I'm wrong in #5 that Tree and the rest of the self-loathing America hating left wouldn't be burning flags and images of Bush because "American Imperialism is out of control!"
"we all know that you are a Bush supporter and before you type a word I'm sure we are all well aware that despite any shortcomings that you might acknowledge in this area, that you are certain that (a) his accomplishments and virtues outweigh his faults and (b) that no Democrat could do any better"
Oh yeah. Pre-censorship. Breathe it in. Because someone supports President Bush, anything and everything they type will be ignored. Finally someone on this board admits to it.
"What's your opinion of Bush's handling of matters regarding African nations, especially DRC?"
I'm disappointed. Not so much as the prior handling of Rwanda.
Papers prove US knew of genocide in Rwanda
Of course Bush could do better, but what do you want out of him? A draft? According to the MSM (which I always take at face value and believe 100%), our forces are stretched already.
Completely call off the hunt for Bin Laden? Pull out of Iraq and put our boys/girls on PT boats and ship 'em to Africa so that a future democracy in Iraq can crumble? Leave South Korea high and dry against a madman with nuclear capabilities?
Airlifting supplies and vaccine straight into the hands of warlords doesn't sound like a good use of taxpayer money.
What about the self-righteous EU? Why don't they send in a few divisions and mop this up? One almost wonders if the DRC has a Blood-For-Food program with Europe?
"What was your opinion of Bush's claims of concern for poor African nations?"
Again I ask. What priority would you like him to drop. Social Security reform? Afghanistan? Iraq?
Point your finger (preferably the middle one) at the Senate where somehow the minority party thinks it has all the cards and dares to call a democratic vote the "nuclear option". Let's get the Senate out of a perpetual gridlock and get some issues done.
What about the left-wing champion of African-American rights himself, Robert Byrd? Why doesn't the greatest orator ever to put a man to sleep watching CSPAN propose something? Where is the left's moral high ground on this topic?
I personally feel Bush isn't doing anything because he would be hated by the press and the citizenry for using the "nuclear option" in Africa.
That must be the left's new term for getting anything done. The Nuclear Option.
How about some fiscal restraint for a change? I can excuse the war related spending and tax cuts for economic growth. We're not the only country on the globe here. If the UN can't handle it (Surprise!), then maybe another Coalition Of Nations Who Give A Damn should rear their heads and get it done.
Africa, as truly disgusting as the situation is there, is another Catch-22 issue for the self-loathers to criticize everyone about.
"I've read several reports that the misdeeds from UN troops have continued after the supposed no tolerance policy was enacted, tho every article I've seen cites the same number of approximately 150 incidents."
Why isn't that getting the same amount of attention as Abu Ghraib? Liberal media bias perhaps? No, couldn't be.
Besides, since when did the left care at all about starving people to death? If you're a crippled woman in Florida, they actually encourage it.
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| | | 19 | Tree
ID: 215341418 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 07:31
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CCP - MITH: "Tree's integrity" - that's an oxymoron.
Are you saying I'm wrong in #5 that Tree and the rest of the self-loathing America hating left wouldn't be burning flags and images of Bush because "American Imperialism is out of control!"
i think MITH's point is that it's a fairly regular thing for people like you to take a shot at me - often unprovoked, sometimes part of an argument, sometimes just to toss it out there, perhaps, because conservatives are scared of liberals with strong opinions.
having said that, don't mock my integrity. i've got more integrity in my pinkie toe than you have in your whole body, as evidenced by nothing more than your simple, repeated, and tired attacks on me.
sure i use coarse language - get over it. i shoot from the hip, and if i think someone needs a litany of flowery metaphors aimed at them, then so be it.
for example - how DARE you question my love for America, when you're one of those who wants to wipe their butt with the Constitution - people like you are a disgrace to conservatives in the U.S. - and don't get me wrong, i'm not a huge fan of the conservative branch of my fellow americans, but people like you should, and often do, disgust true conservatives.
my right to burn, in effigy, gw bush, or an american flag, is the basis of this country. a law banning this is not something that should be added to the Constitution, perhaps the most sacred document in the context of the United States. It is the document that should establish rights and freedoms for all Americans, and it should be the basis of Constitutions world-wide.
it should NOT be used as a document to deprive people of their rights, and the current Republican party seems hellbent on doing just that, be it a flag-burning amendment or a "protection of marriage" amendment.
so get off the mocking tone CCP, and shut the hell up. i love this country, and i will defend it to no end, but when we screw up, i'm not afraid to admit "hey, we screwed up."
and make no bones about it, for the last few years, we've done some royal screwing up.
MITH - i appreciate the words of defense in post number 7. i also respect what you said in post number 15.
Toral - post 13. your unhealthy obsession with me continues. thanks for continuing to elevate my status as one of the most polarizing rotogurupies on the political boards. i couldn't have done it without you. much adoration to you, but yea, your obsession with me is getting to be up there in the icky Tom Cruise/Katie Holmes category.
anyway, sorry for hijacking this thread. it wasn't my intention with post 4, which i felt was somewhat on point, but yes, a jab at the overall view it seems my country is taking on the world. we make fights where there are no fights to be had, ignoring the fights we should, morally, be having.
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| | | 20 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 08:13
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Baldwin,
I took no swipe at you or anyone else for not posting. I noticed that you hadn't posted anyplace in a while. Really I was just pointing out that if post 5 was all he had to offer, there was no reason for CCP to post at all. Anyway, I guess its not surprising given it is our rare bit of common ground but my opinion is that many of your best contributions are on matters regarding Africa and that you wouldn't likely make your first post in a thread on that topic an unprovoked attack - even at Tree. So at least on this and similar topics, I don't regard you and CCP as like-minded thinkers at all.
CCP Are you saying I'm wrong in #5 I'm saying yo are wrong to lob an unprovoked attack. I have no interest in assessing the merits of your ad hominem.
Oh yeah. Pre-censorship. You have to be in a position of power or authority to censor. Here, I am neither. More like pre editing. Didn't work tho.
The rest of your post is a garbled mishmosh of topic avoidance, attacks on the left for semi-related or unrelated topics and self implication that you didn't even bother to read through before you started writing.
In short, the primary opinions that I gather from your post are that President Bush is better off not providing any form of bilateral aid to Congo and that you can't justify America spending any notable amount of money on the problem and that I have no argument in raising this or any issue in a manner that criticizes our current executive government because it is run by conservatives and I am a liberal and there are many very bad liberal politcians.
Is that a fair assessment?
I have no idea why, but Baldwin continually insists on including you in his class. So I wonder how many other conservatives agree with your positions that (a) 1,000 inexcusable deaths per day in Congo are less important than President Bush's approval rating and that (b) liberals have no moral or logical right to raise any issues in which they find fault with American conservative politics.
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| | | 21 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 08:16
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This is the sort of problem that either used to be solved by a few hundred French foreign legion or a private army of mercs raised by shady but hugely wealthy resource aquisition corporation. The fact that a few hundred first world soldiers could save the lives of a thousand Africans daily makes this just one more Rwanda heartbreaker. And the hell-of-it is that the precedent it will set when these things do end up getting solved too late [once nearly everyone is raped and dead] by globalist action, is that globalist intervention, the meme that will get the boost in reputation, is no beauty either. Things always bounce from bad to worse if you are keeping score.
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| | | 22 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 08:26
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A few hundered troops? Baldwin, there are 16,000 UN troops there. More than 99% are not rapists. Many who die in Congo fall to disease and starvation.
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| | | 23 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 09:03
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Such a large part of our ignorance about Africa stems from the fact that our media just doesn't keep us up to date. Our obsession with Michael Jackson, the runaway bride, and the "situation" in Aruba is obscene, given the horror that visits Africa on a daily basis.
In Africa, there's no oil to steal, no nuclear weapons to control and none of the dictators in the area have tried to uproot the Shrub. So there's little chance of military intervention (which would at least get them some food).
The United Nations is less than useless and more corrupt even than the regimes and situations it's sent to monitor.
Don
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| | | 24 | J-Bar
ID: 18551911 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 09:29
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"Bush is better off not providing any form of bilateral aid to Congo and that you can't justify America spending any notable amount of money on the problem"
There is aid going to Africa, because the amount is not what some people think it should be, lets debate why or why not it should be increased. From what I read the U.S. is giving the pro-U.N. crowd exactly what they want, the U.N. handling an international crisis. Since the supposed end of the war are the death tolls associated with the war still a thousand per day? I will have to agree with CCP on the statement that the same people that call the insurgents in Iraq 'freedom fighters' are wanting us to take action against the insurgents in Africa, the same people that moan about deficit spending want to increase spending on their priorities, the same people that are asking for action will ultimately state that our action is predicated on unsavory intentions (ie African oil, big business contracts to rebuild, whatever the flavor of the month.)
some actual dollar amounts
The United States and is the biggest financial contributor to MONUC, providing about a third of its operating budget of $746 million. The U.S. contribution to the U.N. peacekeeping mission in the Congo has been substantial. If 2005 figures are included, the U.S. will have contributed roughly three quarters of a billion dollars ($759 million) toward MONUC since 2000, according to State Department figures. The U.S. is expected to contribute $249 million toward MONUC in FY 2005, and $207 million in FY 2006.[10]
U.S. Funding for Worldwide UN Peacekeeping Activities The United States is the world’s biggest contributor to U.N. peacekeeping operations, contributing 27 percent of the total worldwide U.N. peacekeeping budget. The U.S. is expected to contribute over $1 billion toward U.N. peacekeeping activities across the world in FY 2006.
Over the past decade the United States has made a huge contribution toward U.N. peacekeeping operations. Since 2001, including 2005 figures, the United States will have contributed $3.59 billion toward U.N. international peacekeeping operations.[11]
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| | | 25 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 09:42
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Is what is happening exactly what the "pro-UN" crowd wants? Maybe you are misreading the criticism. People aren't saying that the US should simply be a checkbook (and never have, as far as I can tell). In fact, they've said the opposite: That the US should actually engage in the problem rather than sit back and watch it's dues (which are not earmarked to Africa or any particular crisis) solve the problem from afar.
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| | | 26 | J-Bar
ID: 18551911 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 09:50
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MONUC is the UN mission in Congo.
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| | | 27 | Pancho Villa Sustainer
ID: 533817 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 10:10
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Perhaps this is the type of self-loathing that CCP wouldn't protest:
Bush inhereits Clinton Africa failures
The democratization process stalled and more African countries imploded under President Clinton's watch: Somalia (1993); Rwanda (1994); Burundi (1996); Zaire (1996); Congo-Brazzaville (1997); Sierra Leone (1997); Congo (1998); Ethiopia/Eritrea (1998); Guinea (1999).
African American Congresswoman, Rep Cynthia McKinney (D, Georgia) was scathing: "I am sorry to say this (Clinton) administration has no Africa policy -- or what it has has tremendously failed" (The Washington Times, April 14, 2000; p.A17). And in a January 2000 interview with The East African newspaper, she described Clinton's Africa Policy as "such an abysmal failure." "How can someone so friendly end up with such an outrageous, atrocious, horrible policy that assists perpetrators of crimes against humanity, inflicting damages on innocent African people?" she asked. Similar sentiments were expressed by Randall Robinson, executive director of TransAfrica that spearheaded the campaign against apartheid in South Africa. He dismissed Clinton’s policies in Africa as a “disaster.”
Clinton's Africa policy failed for two reasons. First, his Africa policy was intended more to play to a domestic audience -- to placate the African American constituency -- than to address the fundamental causes of Africa's problems. For example, on his first trip to Uganda in 1998, President Clinton apologized for America's involvement in the slave trade but was silent for 8 years about the enslavement of blacks by Arabs in Mauritania and Sudan until December 6, 2000 when he did denounce "the atrocities of Sudan," including "the scourge of slavery" on Human Rights Day. Further, President Clinton relied almost exclusively on African Americans for counsel in the formulation of U.S. Africa policy. While African-American leaders may mean well for Africa, they analyze Africa's problems differently. For example, the appointment of Rev. Jesse Jackson as Special Envoy to Africa was not seen as advancing the cause of freedom.During his 1998 trip, President Clinton hailed Presidents Laurent Kabila of Congo, Yoweri Museveni of Uganda, Paul Kagame of Rwanda, Meles Zenawi of Ethiopia and Isaiah Afwerki of Eritrea as the “new leaders of Africa” and spoke fondly of the “new African renaissance sweeping the continent.” The administration sought to develop warm, cozy relationships – euphemistically called “partnerships” – with these "new leaders" of Africa to transform their society. As Grace Bibala wrote in The East African (Jan 18, 2001), "William Jefferson Clinton's desperate and possibly naïve search for a partnership with a `new breed' of African leaders was doomed to failure." Indeed, barely two months after Clinton's return to the U.S., the so-called "new leaders of Africa" were fighting each other in the Congo conflict and the Ethiopian-Eritrea war.
While it is fair to ask, as MITH does in #11,
What's your opinion of Bush's handling of matters regarding African nations, especially DRC? What was your opinion of Bush having Joseph Kabila be the very first head of state he would entertain as POTUS?
it must be taken in context with the previous administration's failure to lay concrete groundwork for an African policy that doesn't require schmoozing the latest strongman to come to power because he has been the most successful in buying arms from the Western powers. According to this article, it's not too late for Bush, with sucessive African-American Secrataries of State, to turn things around, if he would decide to turn his attention thusly:
Fortunately for the Bush administration, a set of propitious developments has occurred that offers the African people a chance to break out of the vicious cycle of poverty. It appears African leaders are finally getting serious about tackling the continent's woes. They have dissolved that scandalous Organization of African Unity (OAU), which couldn't even define "democracy," and replaced it with the African Union. And after realizing the futility of blaming others for Africa's problems, African Finance and Planning Ministers met in Algiers from May 8-10, craft two Africa initiatives: The Millennium Partnership for the African Recovery Program (MAP) led by Presidents Mbeki of South Africa and Obasanjo of Nigeria and Bouteflika of Algeria, and the OMEGA Plan proposed by President Wade of Senegal.
Although Africans have seen such grandiose plans in the past, these developments nonetheless present the new Bush administration with a unique opportunity to fundamentally alter the U.S. policy toward Africa by de-politicizing and de-racializing Africa policy. The problems Africa faces today have little to do with the slave trade, colonialism or racism but more to do with bad leadership and bad governance, originating from the establishment of defective economic and political systems and the debauchery of state institutions. Cut these institutions loose from the clutches of the despots and the African people will do the rest of the job of transforming their societies.
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| | | 28 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 428299 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 10:14
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it must be taken in context with the previous administration's failure to lay concrete groundwork for an African policy that doesn't require schmoozing the latest strongman to come to power because he has been the most successful in buying arms from the Western powers.
Well said and I full agree.
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| | | 29 | Revvingparson Sustainer
ID: 059856912 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 11:26
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MITH, good writing.
I believe there are several things that have led to the whole African situation not recieving much notice:
1. In reality it's a whole contential (Africa) problem not simply one nation (DRC).
2. IF there were to be American military intervention, people I think would want something more along the lines of Bosnia vs. Iraq, which in this situation is impossible. We would need boots on the ground and possible blood shed of American troops--I just don't think Amercians are up to more of this when they cannot see how this affects them directly.
3. Just as in the WOT, there is a mindset amongest those in control that most Americans cannot grasp-that of "Warlords".
4. When people hear the words "civil war", I think the preconcieved notion is "it's their battle not ours".
5. Militarily the question has to be asked just what can the U.S. really do at this point? Our forces are spread quite broadly right now and almost to broadly. Yes the leaders who are in charge are horrible, and got there and continue to be there by repressive means, killing and starving their people to death. Even now in Zimbabwe the that nation's leader is committing acts of atrocisties. We are currently fighting a war in Iraq in part because the leader of that country was starving, killing his people and committing acts of atrocities that even the UN condemned. By the way I do believe that oil and other econonmic issues were at play in Iraq, along with long term regional stability.
So the questions remain: Which countries/nations do we intervine in?
When this is determined, when do we intervine?
How do we intervine, military?, financially?, diplomatically?
Is the African situation a horrible humanitarian mess? yes
What can we really do at this point beyond what is being done presently, not much, until the issues on the WOT and Iraq have been more clearly resolved and or the situation in Africa in general is seen as a "threat" to our national security.
Most people will not have Africa as a top issue in upcoming elections...becaue it does not directly affect them, thus it will continue to be a "silent" problem.
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| | | 30 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 13:29
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A few hundered troops? Baldwin, there are 16,000 UN troops there. - MITH
I believe the operative expression in that sentence is UN troops. There were UN troops in Rwanda for all the good it did.
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| | | 31 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 13:31
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I think we can all agree, however, that it doesn't matter how many (or few) troops you have, or where they are from, if they don't actually engage in solving the problem. The UN was in Rwanda but were not authorized to do anything (same as the US in Bosnia until Clark forced the hand of the warlords there and started actually trying to save the Muslims there.
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| | | 32 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 428299 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 17:52
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J-Bar U.S. is giving the pro-U.N. crowd exactly what they want, the U.N.
I don't understand that. Why is catering to "the pro UN crowd" relevant to this discussion? Bilateral aid from the US to Congo means aid that does not arrive via any outside conduit. Our current government and Americans far and wide have rightfully been highly critical of the UN and her failures for years. That includes me, here in this thread and numerous places elsewhere in the Politics Forum. Clearly, the measures taken by the UN to date in DRC are insufficient and/or unproductive, whatever the reason. My preference would be an international humanitarian and military action (including a UN presence in some capacity) with the US taking a prominant and visible leadership role. I'll acknowledge that one of the problems with that vision is that Bush has strained diplomatic relations with our allies to the extent that I don't see him ever being trusted by the international community to lead a military coalition that includes any notable contributions from other first world nations.
Rev I think a large part of the issue I take with Bush re DRC is the meaningless lip service. I think that inaction would be somewhat easier to swallow if he wasn't throwing around rhetoric - much of it occuring while already dealing with the Iraqi insurgency - about being committed to improving conditions in DRC and elsewhere in Africa. During the 2000 presidential campaign Bush stated that Africa will not be a priority of his presidency. In that regard he kept his word, so if there was never any place in his agenda for African matters, whats the point pretending to change his tune and then failing to make good?
Baldwin Despite of the ineffectiveness of the UN's attempt to assist the DRC (and any additional harm it may have caused), DRC is a country that is 1/4 the size of the US, with deaths from atrocities, disease and starvation occurring across that land mass. If there is a need for a military presence to aid and protect those people (and I believe there is) it will have to be more than just a few hundred or a few thousand strong.
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| | | 33 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Thu, Jun 23, 2005, 23:55
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I think you overestimate the troublemakers. A ragtag band of half clothed boy soldiers with WWI corroded single shot rifles are a non-factor when faced with a first world military force. That's asuming the locals are more harmful than the UN forces.
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| | | 35 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Sat, Jun 25, 2005, 11:52
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MITH: We should handle the Congo by using a NATO force to go in and establish order and provide aid directly to those in need.
I do not want to prop up warlords or supply them by airlifting supplies to needy villages only to have the barbarians snatch the parcels and rape/murder the inhabitants of the village.
I would want the Red Cross and Red Crescent working with NATO (with us leading as usual) to provide direct security so that aid workers do not get kidnapped or bullied into turning over their supplies to them.
I am also all ears for any plan that will satisfy the budget, not raise taxes, and will also keep the peacenik-flag burners at bay.
In order to do this properly there will have to be a military presence on the ground with some force behind it. Sadly, the only option I see is our military. We have the most capable men/women by far and a NATO coalition led by us would be the best force mankind could put on the ground there.
Once NATO establishes relief stations and refugee camps under their security, I would want the present DRC to step down entirely in favor of a true democratic government that Western Civilization (led by NATO) would install. At that point, if the prior government had any debt owed to us or the U.N. (shudder), I would have us remove that obligation so they can start fresh. I would pay for that debt removal by not meeting our financial obligations to the UN.
I am not aware of any past or present involvements by Egypt, but I would be open to the idea of them playing a role as well. I would like an Islamic government to help play some role in this so that it looks like a true international team effort so that not even Al Jazeera, Michael Moore, Dick Durbin or Stuart Smalley could spin this into another BS session about American Imperialism.
Lastly, I would provide a tax incentive for pharmacutical companies to provide discounted vaccines and other drugs to African nations. I would also work with the EU for them to do the same. I would pay for this by cutting foreign aid to other countries in less need.
Again, I am open to any solution that does not raise taxes, cause deficits and will not cause me to have to watch hours upon hours of the same anti-war crowd decrying our actions in Africa.
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| | | 36 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 07:41
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Cosmo read through again. I never said that I believe a NATO force to go in and establish order and provide aid directly to those in need. Where you got that is beyond me. In fact, one of the primary themes through this thread has been criticism of the UN.
I would want the Red Cross and Red Crescent working with NATO (with us leading as usual) to provide direct...
Astounding idea. I wonder where I heard something like that before. Read my first paragraph of post 32.
Then read any other paragraph in this thread in which I mentioned the UN. I'm quite sure that in every example, I have pointed out their failures/shortcomings in Congo. Like the Washington Post link in the thread header. Or the last link of post 32.
My actual opinon (not that you would care - and I'm sure you'll probably just distort it if you respond, anyway) is that the best policy is to give the UN a role that is as visible but unimpactful as-possible. In my opinion there is a very high political and diplomatic value to UN involvement, but their effectiveness in large military releif matters is questionable at (very) best.
So it seems that we are in greater agreement than you care to realize. Amazing what you miss when you filter your reading through your prejudice, huh? Please stop asserting opinions to me that are different from (or in this case, the opposite of) what I have been writing.
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| | | 37 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 08:24
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MITH: "Cosmo read through again. I never said that I believe a NATO force to go in and establish order and provide aid directly to those in need"
No you condescending fool. I said that. Look for the " " " marks, you'll know when I quote you.
Like right here...
"give the UN a role that is as visible but unimpactful as-possible"
Why? Why prop up an international body that has no guts or ability to get things done? If it isn't working, why put up the false facade that it is?
"there is a very high political and diplomatic value to UN involvement"
You just said to give them an "unimpactful" role. Either the UN works or it doesn't work. In my opinion, it stinks, their leader (Annan) is crooked and it doesn't work. Annan obviously doesn't give a damn so why should the organizational body that he presides over be given any kudos for this?
I don't want the UN to have credit for work it wouldn't be doing. The credit should belong to NATO and other nations that would help us out.
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| | | 38 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 10:10
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So you'd rather have one international, unworking body (NATO) over another (UN)? Even though NATO is far outside its mandate if it were to suddenly start patrolling mid-Africa?
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| | | 39 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 11:51
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PD: I place no value in the words spoken by or actions threatened to be taken by the United Nations. They allowed Saddam Hussein to make a mockery of them via their own weakness and via Oil For Food. They have no spine and they lack the resolve necessary to follow thru with any plan that is beyond the force comparison of a timeout.
Kofi Annan has allowed massacre upon massacre upon massacre to take place under his watch. I place no value in the words he says. Until he ponies up and takes immediate, decisive and successful action, I will put no stock into anything he says. My personal opinion is that he was on the take as well either directly or indirectly from the Oil For Food scandal. That is not someone I want in charge of anything.
Again I want to reiterate part of my point. I am in favor of this if it does not raise taxes, create deficits, and everybody is on board. I do mean everybody. I do not want any Monday morning quarterbacks rioting all over the world. I do not want to see Senator Drunkennedy on Meet The Press talking about the Africa "End Game" and our "Exit Strategy" where he second guesses the President, NATO Command or the new African governments we install.
That is not to say I am against those with opposing opinions. I encourage opposing opinions because it is how we improve. What I do not want is everybody to be on board with it now and be all gung ho, then when the first shots are fired people back off and protest. If we're going to do it and we can financially afford to do it under CURRENT budgetary levels, then I'll support any concrete plan (led by NATO, not the UN) that will destroy the warlords, feed the starving, and create democracy.
NATO (under the leadership of President Reagan) is the organization that helped take down the Soviet Union. If not for the NATO alliance, the world would be a darker place. The UN cannot lay any claim to something even remotely that successful.
Furthermore, if we did take action, I want our fighting men and women to have every available tool at their disposal to effectively win the war. If someone is an enemy combatant and the Geneva Conventions do not apply, I do not want to hear about the way he is being treated. If the person is part of a legitimate army, then sobeit with the GC.
I have every confidence in our military. I do not have any confidence in some politicians to allow our military to be successful. I would want the politicians to shut up and allow our military to do what they are the best in the history of mankind at.
Notice in #35, I also stated that I wanted an Islamic nation involved as well. I want this to be a true blue international effort with overwhelming force against the warlords and mounds of help for the Africans to feed them, and install democratic governments. I do not want this to be misconstrued as imperialism, some ploy for oil or other natural resource or any other of the littany of BS I've heard over the last few years.
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| | | 40 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 12:20
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Well, besides the fact that NATO didn't take down the Soviet Union (the Soviet Union, a collection of second world "nations" organized under a fatally-bad economic system, spent itself to death while trying to force itself to become a first-world country by virtue of its having nuclear weaponry), I think you set up far too many barriers. "Everyone" on board?
We should go there because it's the right thing to do. Moral actions need not have everyone on board to still be right--in fact, it probably won't since not everyone acts morally.
You say you don't trust politicians (far enough) but you want them all lined up in agreement before you'll act. That's not going to work.
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| | | 41 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 13:38
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Not to get OT, but are trying to imply the Soviet Union would've crumbled anyway if NATO or a similar alliance had never existed?
Don't blame me PD. Blame the people who would inevitably protest the living snot out of this worthy action. Take a cold hard look at the type of people who would oppose it. I sincerely request of you to ask yourself that question and then maybe you'll see some of the truth about things.
"You say you don't trust politicians (far enough) but you want them all lined up in agreement before you'll act. That's not going to work."
Then by all means let them say so up front and center before the entire world that they are against saving the lives of millions and millions of Africans. I hope they would not be in office too long afterwards and then we can get rolling. I doubt a Democrat Senator who says that sort of thing could ever count on the African-American vote ever again.
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| | | 42 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 13:59
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The Soviet Union was destined to collapse by virtue of its own economic system, CCP. Or are you saying that they had the right economic system to be sustainable? You can't have it both ways. The US outspent the Soviet Union, causing it to collapse sooner than it would have, but collapse it would have.
I'm not blaming you, except that you use the future criticism (even false criticism) of anyone to prevent yourself from doing the right thing. And that's wrong.
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| | | 43 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 14:42
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"you use the future criticism (even false criticism) of anyone to prevent yourself from doing the right thing. And that's wrong."
I understand what you're saying, but look at what we're going thru right now. Bush, Blair et all will probably be proven wrong on the WMD front, but to me that's not even the most important part of the reason to go to war in Iraq. I wanted Iraq handled for the human rights violations alone.
The people who protest the war are also protesting (indirectly) against any future human rights improvements there since they would've preferred our forces to stay home, therefore Saddam would still be in power to rape, murder, pillage and plunder.
Who is more wrong PD, myself or the people who would argue against feeding the hungry, protecting women and children, and creating democracy where brutal dictatorship once reigned?
Keep in mind that I am making my comments in the real world in which we live. In an "ideal state", of course I'd love to send 500,000 troops over to Africa, teach those bastards whose boss and give freedom to those people to run their country any democratically elected way they want with true human rights. IMHO, the people of Africa deserve it the most. If for no better reason than for what we did to them in the times of slavery.
I'm commenting based out of a world in which my country has a record deficit (plenty of blame to go around for that one), budget constraints (or lack thereof), a social security crisis, and two ongoing wars.
Side discussion: Had NATO not existed and Europe was there for the taking, I don't think the Soviets would've restrained themselves. I think the everpresent deterrent of NATO forces in Europe held the Soviet land grab relatively in check while our superior economic system blew them apart.
Had they been able to achieve a massive land grab since no alliance of substance would've existed, they might very well have had the natural resources to sustain themselves. With the western front in Europe fully secured then, they would've turned their eyes south to the middle east and who knows what would've happened.
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| | | 44 | katietx
ID: 45522117 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 17:02
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IMHO, the people of Africa deserve it the most. If for no better reason than for what we did to them in the times of slavery.
Not that I want to hijack this thread, but "we" didn't start the slavery trade in Africa. Actually, "they" started it themselves. Now whether this was due to economic factors or not, I don't know.
Most of the slave ships were not owned, nor commanded, by "us."
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| | | 45 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 18:58
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I wouldn't blame the victims so much. Yes there were plenty of tribes that would happily sell their neighbors into slavery [or kill them outright for that matter], however it was the muslims who really made it an orderly market, a system.
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| | | 46 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 19:24
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Who is more wrong PD, myself or the people who would argue against feeding the hungry, protecting women and children, and creating democracy where brutal dictatorship once reigned?
With all due respect, you. The other people have no idea about what's going on in the Congo. You do, but are attaching impossible-to-reach conditions.
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm hearing a lot of the same excuses from the politicians you're criticizing.
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| | | 47 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 19:25
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I understand the history behind the slave trade and that there were many turncoats in Africa. Nevertheless, we were the consumers of one of the worst human rights events in the history of man and to not acknowledge that is to live in denial.
I'm not a self-loather in that regard, only honest. This country participated in and encouraged slave ownership. It is part of our history (our=this country, not you and me) whether we like it or not.
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| | | 48 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 19:42
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46 & 47 must've flown by each other.
"The other people have no idea about what's going on in the Congo."
I don't believe that PD. I would think by now that the average citizen knows of Rwanda. I'm not saying the average person "cares" about Rwanda, but at least is aware that an event happened. The public can be quickly educated about the Congo if the MSM ever chose to do so.
I ask, why is the MSM basically ignoring this?
If someone is "smart" enough to sit down and watch the news and decide that W is an imperialist for helping out Africa, then they know full well what they are doing. I would like to believe that our politicians know full well what is happening in Africa, even the normally ignorant ones.
Why are my conditions impossible to reach though? I can see why you are saying that given the idiocy of some of our fellow citizens, but we need to understand the "why" behind the opposition for such an event.
To me it seems that there is a large segment of this country that believes freedom and basic human rights are only for Americans. That to go over to another country and provide freedom is somehow imperialism or that we have evil economic reasons for doing so.
Either that or the response is akin to "we've got no business going to other countries because we have problems of our own". I've heard that dozens of times about the Iraq War.
Why do people do that? Is it bigotry, American arrogance? We need to stand up and put a name or label to those who oppose liberating the helpless.
We do not need to negatively label those who try to liberate and actually try and accomplish something on their watch instead of token tit-for-tat engagements that really only embolden our enemies in the long term.
This is one of my favorite quotes, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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| | | 49 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Sun, Jun 26, 2005, 23:33
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They had no problem liberating the French twice last century, but liberating Asians and Africans is somehow different. Let's see, what could it be? Something liberals are always quick to point out in others maybe?
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| | | 50 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 03:05
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Who are "they?"
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| | | 51 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 10:04
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The same party that had no problem justifying liberating the French but now consider the act imperialism.
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| | | 52 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 10:09
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Ah, so this is another Democratic problem. OK.
At least you're consistent.
You must have an excellent blinders store. You wear them so often, and they appear quite natural on you.
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| | | 53 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 10:28
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PD
You hold the patent on blinders, PD.
Instead of ad hominem attack on me in order to avoid the uncomfortable question why not explain the party shift on liberating people apparently based on most favored race.
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| | | 54 | Perm Dude
ID: 165591315 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 10:41
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This might surprise you, but Republicans control the federal government. And have for some time. In fact, during the 90's, it was Republican Congressmen who attacked Clinton for virtually any foreign policy move because it took attention off their attacks on him.
So don't give me this UN/liberal/Trilateral Commission crap. You're trying to project the question of the avoidance of why Republicans are not working on this problem, as though this was not only a Democratic problem but as if the Democrats have the power to do anything about it.
Instead of asking why the powers-that-be aren't doing anything about it, you're spending your your time attacking the powers-that-aren't. It's not even a very good three card monte attempt.
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| | | 55 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 10:52
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Ever played CIV? Democracies can't do hardly anything because of the internal resistance to action. Pretty realistic in that detail.
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| | | 56 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 10:53
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...And in this case which party is providing the resistance? It's obviously a Democrat thing and I'll point out the obvious, thank you.
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| | | 57 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Mon, Jun 27, 2005, 11:02
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I don't want the UN to have credit for work it wouldn't be doing. The credit should belong to NATO and other nations that would help us out.
UN involvement will ensure the support of far more nations than NATO (and certainly just the US). Bush's failure to realize this is what led to the pathetic joke of a "coalition" that we were able to bring to Iraq and the undermanning and underfunding of that enormous mission.
Personally, I'm much more concerned with saving as many lives in Congo as possible than who gets credited with the effort.
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| | | 58 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Tue, Jun 28, 2005, 06:16
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"Personally, I'm much more concerned with saving as many lives in Congo as possible than who gets credited with the effort."
What possibly makes you believe the UN would accomplish that?
What has the UN done in their past compared to NATO that makes you believe they'd do so much better?
All the UN involvement will do is force action by those who would already take action anyway in a NATO engagement and saber-rattling by the rest of the world with a timeout threat to the warlords.
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| | | 59 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Tue, Jun 28, 2005, 07:43
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Well there I disagree. When the proper channels are used, I believe UN justification sanctions a military action to the extent that it promotes greater international cooperation. Look at the success and the size of the coalition assembled for first gulf war.
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| | | 60 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Wed, Jun 29, 2005, 06:24
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"Look at the success and the size of the coalition assembled for first gulf war."
Yes, it was comprised of NATO, other allies of America, and various gulf states that were petrified of being next on Saddam's hit list. These would've been allies with or without the UN.
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| | | 61 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Wed, Jun 29, 2005, 08:33
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You're fooling yourself. UN approval goes a long way. We had it in GW1 and the coalition was enormous. We don't have it in GW2 and we have an undermanned effort. Where's all our NATO buddies today without UNSC approval in Iraq? UK sent some 45,000 troops in 1990. How many did our greatest ally send in 2003?
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| | | 62 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Wed, Jun 29, 2005, 18:29
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MITH: "We had it in GW1 and the coalition was enormous."
Yes because the world collectively messed their pants because they thought the next Hitler was coming up.
"UK sent some 45,000 troops in 1990."
2003 invasion of Iraq
" Approximately 260,000 United States troops, with support from 45,000 British, and smaller forces from other nations, collectively called the "Coalition of the Willing", entered Iraq primarily through a staging area in Kuwait."
The same number, gee, the effects of the UN are staggering.
Not to forget one terroristic difference between GW1 and GW2. The average Euro-nation had no fear of reprisals from Saddam. Everyone and their mother knew we were going to trounce him and evict him from Kuwait.
GW2 is different. Countries knew there would be terrorist reprisals. Just ask Spain.
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| | | 63 | sarge33rd
ID: 344362512 Wed, Jun 29, 2005, 18:50
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The same number, gee, the effects of the UN are staggering.
seems you are sampling the size of contribution from but one member. What of Moroccos contribution? The 30,000 monkeys? Oh wait...I htink poiint was, the coalition itself is much different in scope, lacking UN approval. Rather than acknowledge an obvious fact, you select the one sample size, that is the same. The contribution from our singular staunchest ally. Such an open mind you display.
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| | | 64 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Wed, Jun 29, 2005, 20:29
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Sarge:
I'll copy and paste what MITH asked because I know long posts confuse you...
MITH #61 "UK sent some 45,000 troops in 1990. How many did our greatest ally send in 2003?"
Notice the singular form of the word ally. Since he alluded to the number of troops from the UK in the prior sentence, it is same to assume that he is asking how many troops the UK sent.
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| | | 65 | sarge33rd
ID: 45522117 Wed, Jun 29, 2005, 20:35
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fair nuff. (muttering under my breath...this time)
;)
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| | | 66 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Thu, Jun 30, 2005, 09:30
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Well I was mistaken about the number of troops the UK provided for the 2003 invassion - why and did they pull out 5/6 of their troops!? Some allies.
Regardless, to say that UN approval makes no difference is silly. The contributions from other nations in GW1 amounted to some 325,000 troops, roughly 60% of the total number of American troops.
Among the nations that were neither NATO nor Middle Eastern who made notable contributions (at least by the standards that President Bush uses when extolling the 2003 coalition) to the effort are:
Afghanistan Bangladesh Czecheslovakia Honduras Hungary Niger Romania South Korea Poland
From non-NATO, non-Middle Eastern nations we received over 7,000 troops, 4 ships, 13 C-130 aircraft, 2 minesweepers, over 200 chemical weapons experts and several medical Units.
Further and more importantly, consider the difference in the contributions of our NATO allies, with and without UN support. For GW1, the effort received the following support from our NATO allies: BELGIUM - 1 frigate, 2 minesweepers, 2 landing ships, 6 C-130 planes CANADA - 2 destroyers, 12 C-130 planes, 24 CF-18 bombers, 4500 troops, Field Hospital (1 Canadian Field Hospital) FRANCE - 18,000 troops, 60 combat aircraft, 120 helicopters, 40 tanks, 1 missle cruiser, 3 destroyers, 4 frigates GERMANY - Jagdbombergeschwader 43 consisting of 18 Alpha-Jets and 212 soldiers stationed in Erhac/Turkey during the gulf war 5 Minesweeper, 2 Supply Vessels, 500 sailors altogether ITALY - 3 frigates, 4 minesweepers, 10 Tornado Aircraft.
Of those important allies, only Italy contributed to the 2003 invasion. I'll mantain that despite the operational flaws of the UN, UNSC approval promotes much greater international cooperation in a military endeavor. Concerns over nonsense such as you raise, like 'who gets the credit' is one of the reasons that the UN so frequently fails.
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| | | 67 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Fri, Jul 01, 2005, 06:23
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Comparing the coalition between GW1 and GW2 is pure folly. Different war, different fear of reprisals from terrorists put the border line saber-rattlers on the bench. Not too mention the Oil For Food scam.
"From non-NATO, non-Middle Eastern nations we received over 7,000 troops, 4 ships, 13 C-130 aircraft, 2 minesweepers, over 200 chemical weapons experts and several medical Units."
Yes, and I'm sure the people of Kuwait would still be enslaved had it not been for the extra 7,000 troops, 4 ships (in a war not famous for its naval engagements), and 200 chemical weapons experts that probably sat on the sidelines the whole time.
The GW1 I remember involved a thorough and complete whupping put on Saddam by the coalition. It wasn't like we needed the 7,000 troops during a war whose duration was primarily spent bombing.
Let's say you're working on a group project for school. There's this kid who talks about how smart he is and blah blah blah. He's in your group. You're working on your project as are your other teammates except for this guy. Now, when you go turn the paper in, shouldn't you let the professor know so that this guy doesn't get an A for just sitting on his duff?
At work, would you give someone full credit for work you did?
Yet you suggest in #36 that the UN plays "as visible but unimpactful as-possible" of a role. That's basically international plagarism isn't it? Taking credit for someone else's work because you were too lazy to do it yourself.
When our government fails us and does not work, we don't invite another government to come over here and act like they are working only to turn around and say, "Wow that US government is great!" No, we call out the lazy dopes in Congress for what they are.
"Concerns over nonsense such as you raise, like 'who gets the credit' is one of the reasons that the UN so frequently fails."
No, I think corruption and perhaps bigotry plays a greater role in that.
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| | | 68 | Boldwin
ID: 543312819 Sat, Jul 02, 2005, 08:20
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Un-believable. UN praises Mugabe's murderous Pol Pot redux. If you ever needed proof of just how evil and unreliable the UN is...
The real story...here, here and here.Thousands of self-employed people have seen their informal shops demolished and goods confiscated in the six-week campaign dubbed "Operation Restore Order" which officials say has also made 120 000 people homeless. Aid groups and non-governmental organisations estimate that at least 300 000 people have been evicted [out of a country of only 12 million - B] and have joined western governments in demanding its immediate halt.
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| | | 69 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Wed, Jul 13, 2005, 15:03
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CCP The GW1 I remember involved a thorough and complete whupping put on Saddam by the coalition. It wasn't like we needed the 7,000 troops during a war whose duration was primarily spent bombing.
If only President Bush would show such pragmatism in discussing the extensive and essential contributions from our "Coalition of the Willing". Glad to hear that you see right through that pathetic slop.
More to the topic (or the tangent, more accurately) as I've stated, my preference for UN sanction and involvement in military endeavors is rooted in the idea that it promotes greater global cooperation in the effort. Your apparent denial of this as fact is absurd to me, especially in the face of the snubbing we received from several of our prominant NATO allies following our failure to get UNSC approval to invade Iraq in 2003.
You could make the claim that greater global cooperation is not all its cracked up to be, that it leads to lesser-trained personell on the ground being trusted with responsibilities that are better left to first-world specialists. If that were your point, it would be a fair one but I would be compelled to point out to you that as NATO expands to include former Soviet bloc and other countries that were traditionally outside of what has been regarded as 'first-world', I believe the quality, training, equipment and possibly professionalism of NATO soldiers does drop off significantly, at least for the time being.
Baldwin Should I be more shocked that the state-run media claims that Tibaijuka praised Mugabe - or that you present this contention as definitive fact?
Clearly for Baldwin it is not important to question the lackeys of murderous despots as long as they serve your agenda. Exposing the truths behind human rights atrocities in Africa takes a back seat when the dubious claims of those who commit the atrocities can used to paint the UN as evil.
You can stake your reputation on Mugabe's mouthpiece. Maybe she really did praise him. Regardless, true or not I doubt it will have much effect on your standing here. I'll wait for Tibaijuka's official report, thanks.
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| | | 70 | CCP At Work
ID: 5653611 Wed, Jul 13, 2005, 15:53
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MITH: "More to the topic (or the tangent, more accurately) as I've stated, my preference for UN sanction and involvement in military endeavors is rooted in the idea that it promotes greater global cooperation in the effort. Your apparent denial of this as fact is absurd to me, especially in the face of the snubbing we received from several of our prominant NATO allies following our failure to get UNSC approval to invade Iraq in 2003."
The difference between your stance and mine is that you want a UN brand label on the product, I do not.
A factor in the world hating us is that the average citizen does not know the true extent to which the U.S. contributes to world's good via money, food, and other forms of aid. Looking at the U.S. from a corporate perspective, it does a very poor job of marketing itself as a nation that gives help to poorer nations.
Part of the reason why the job is done poorly is because we allow ourselves to have the UN label placed on some of the good things we do.
With every "wrong" (Abu Ghraib, Gitmo) that this country does being amplified ten-fold by the anti-American world media and the self loathing liberal media, we need to amply our positive accomplishments just as much if not more so than our "wrongs".
Your failure to see why GW2 did not garner a coalition as immense as GW1 is equally absurb to me. France and Germany were on the take, Russia wants better ties with Iran, and the fear of terrorist reprisals were all nonfactors going into the first Gulf War.
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| | | 71 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Wed, Jul 13, 2005, 16:02
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Stopping attrocities is a product? Capitalism is a flawed system. No reason to extend it beyond where it belongs, and certainly not with regard to getting "our due" for simply being human, and trying to lessen suffering in the world.
Maybe that view a small part of why we are often labled ugly americans.
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| | | 72 | CCP At Work
ID: 5653611 Wed, Jul 13, 2005, 16:51
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bili: You're not getting it.
If the world hears 24/7 nonstop about what pricks we are, but never hears about the good things we do, no wonder worldwide opinion is in the tank.
Each time we do something noble and good like donate a bazillion dollars to tsunami relief we need to showcase (not brag) what America is doing to help the disadvantaged.
Part of the War On Terror stems from the fact that a good part of the world views us as the bad guy for a multitude of reasons, justifiable or not. If others can see the United States in a positive light while we're helping others that may go some ways in alleviating that anger.
It certainly will help us more than letting the inept UN handle things.
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| | | 73 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Wed, Jul 13, 2005, 16:51
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The difference between your stance and mine is that you want a UN brand label on the product, I do not.
Like bili, I have trouble with your choice to frame a humantaian military endeavor as a product - that is, a thing that exists to be bought and sold. But if you insist, then conventional wisdom dictates that if a "product" is to be "successful" (and even in our context the success of the product depends on achieving global assistance - which has my point all along through this tangent) then it must be properly marketed. The point that I have made over and over is that with UN sanction, an invasion of Iraq would have included participation from a greater number of nations and for that reason alone would have enjoyed greater global popularity.
Further, it is you, CCP, not me, who is concered with such inanities as "brand labels" and "who gets the credit". I want to see atrocities ended in Congo. I am far less concerned whether it is The UN or USA or UK or DKNY or GMC who gets the credit. I'm simply advocating what I believe are the best conditions for helping terrorized citizens of African nations get better. For me, America's standing in the world - your stated priority in this issue - takes a backseat to thousands of people dying in Congo.
Regarding your contentions regarding Russia, Germany and France, I do wonder to what extent you believe Oil for Food corruption and Russia's Iran policy drove those nations' respective Iraq policies. My opinion is that their refusal to help had at least as much to do with rather questionable WMD evidence obnoxiously presented as certain, sure-fire proof, the fact that an invasion of Iraq was never at any point an urgent priority despite it's being painted as one and then subsequently rammed down our throats and general piss-poor diplomacy on the part of our executive branch.
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| | | 74 | Cosmo's Cod Piece
ID: 11314719 Wed, Jul 13, 2005, 18:52
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MITH: I'm tired of going around in circles with you like I talking with some junior high kid. Yes, I too want to see atrocities ended in the Congo. People starving is bad.
What I cannot tolerate is the UN standing there like Santa Claus (a big fat ficticous body) passing out the presents while the parents (the United States and main allies) are footing the bill.
Meanwhile, all the dopes look around and say how wonderful the UN is. What they don't notice are the parents who are up to 3am wrapping the gifts and writing the checks for them.
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| | | 75 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Wed, Jul 13, 2005, 22:34
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all the dopes
Who are these dopes? I don't know of anyone out there extoling the virtues of the UN. The liberal mainstream media in this country certainly isn't doing that these days. But anyway,
Yes, I too want to see atrocities ended in the Congo. People starving is bad.
What I cannot tolerate is the UN standing there like Santa Claus (a big fat ficticous...
Sure buddy. No need for me to bore you with my junior high school antics any longer. Clearly, when it boils down to those two issues, you see one of them as the priority and I think the other is far more important. I guess we can agree to disagree.
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