|
| Posted by: Seattle Zen
- [178161719] Thu, Aug 18, 2005, 12:46
Republicans are headed towards the metal detectors. "Please empty your pockets into the tray, don't touch the walls. Republican office holders pleading Guilty or No Contest, courtrooms one, two and four."
Gov. Bob Taft pleaded no contest Thursday to charges that he broke state ethics law by failing to report golf outings and other gifts.

I've hated this guy since he spent considerable time and resources fighting Ohio's "treatment not incarceration" initiative in 2002. Enjoy the heavy burden of destroying your four-generation family name in Republican politics, you pathetic hack! |
| | | 1 | biliruben
ID: 531202411 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 10:40
|
"I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith," Frist said.
Can anyone tell what the hell that even means?
I think he is realizing he may have cost himself an nomination by supporting stem cell research, and is desperately trying to convince people he is merely an idiot.
|
|
| | | 2 | Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 10:53
|
Right here in crazy liberal Seattle is the most important "Intelligent Design" think tank in America.
Crazy bunch of science-denying clowns, you Republicans.
Proponents of intelligent design challenge Darwin's theory of natural selection by arguing that some organisms are too complex to be explained by evolution alone, pointing to the possibility of supernatural influences. Intelligent design is shunned as heresy in mainstream universities and science societies as untestable in laboratories. Hey, I'm cool with the split - we will continue to support the Enlightenment and scientific discovery, you guys can continue to pitch the Bible for the answer to everything.
|
|
| | | 3 | sarge33rd
ID: 344362512 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 14:31
|
Hear an interesting little blurb on katies conservative talk-radio station yesterday.
The host was talking about some conservative "think tank" that had postulated that there is in reality, no such thing as gravity. Rather, what we see is the result of "intelligent falling" wherein "God" is "pushing" things down.
Sounds to me, like an op-ed from the Onion.
:)
|
|
| | | 4 | Mark L
ID: 437311616 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 14:42
|
It is.
(Although I have a feeling Sarge knows that.)
|
|
| | | 5 | sarge33rd
ID: 344362512 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 15:03
|
LOL...actually Mark, when we heard it on the radio...it struck me as something from The Onion, but the speaker didnt acknowledge as much. It was presented not as a satirical piece, but as a piece of news. Even katie katie listened and responded with...oh gawd....
|
|
| | | 6 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 15:04
|
Was it a special report from World Net Daily?
|
|
| | | 7 | Mark L
ID: 437311616 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 15:05
|
Frightening when reality out-Onions the Onion.
|
|
| | | 8 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Mon, Aug 22, 2005, 15:24
|
Anti-Christian comment.
|
|
| | | 10 | biliruben
ID: 531202411 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 00:01
|
Pat Robertson. Whack job.
Calling for the assassination of the Venezuela's prez.
Didn't this dude run for the republican nomination for freakin' president, and make a decent showing?
Feel free to make all the anti-christian comments you like, like what ever happened to "thou shalt not kill"?
|
|
| | | 11 | Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 00:49
|
Disgusting! A 700 Club fatwa. Robertson needs to be put out to pasture.
|
|
| | | 12 | biliruben
ID: 531202411 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 00:59
|
Republican saying: "If you can't bribe 'em, shoot 'em."
|
|
| | | 13 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:04
|
Let's kill all the evangelicals! Best not to err on the wrong side.
|
|
| | | 14 | Seattle Zen
ID: 178161719 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:19
|
That's it, Toral. Get to work! Double indulgences for each evangelical you kill - this week only.
|
|
| | | 15 | Trip Sustainer
ID: 13961611 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:28
|
From BoingBoing:
Yesterday, I posted an item to Boing Boing about the growing popularity of Pastafarianism, a new religion that worships Flying Spaghetti Monster, initially created to protest the Kansas State School Board's decision to teach "Intelligent Design" in schools. A suprising number of I.D. supporters wrote in with comments like this from reader Anne Kenny: Okay Xeni I read your Blog about Intellegent Design and the spaghetti monster. Ridiculous. I'd like to know what you think should be taught in the schools.
Certainally not evolution considering there is not one single fact that proves it. No missing links, not even common sense. Lies are still being printed that were proven wrong in the late 1800's but they're still taught as fact.
If you're so positive that you came from a monkey or a rock or whatever you think it is I suggest you debate Dr. Kent Hovind.
Dr. Hovind is willing to pay any individual a quarter of a million dollars to anyone who can give any empirical evidence for evolution. He has had this offer up for a long time but even this country's top scientists have gone up against him and lost the debates.
I suggest you offer this to your avid readers... I'm sure one of them would like some extra cash. You can call 850-479-3466 (8-5 Mon-Fri CST) for more info about the $250,000. Please blog this I'm interested in what you think about evolution and all of its lies.
I've discussed the matter with my blog colleagues, and we would like to hereby issue a challenge to Kent Hovind and his supporters. We are willing to pay any individual *$250,000 if they can produce empirical evidence which proves that Jesus is not the son of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Link (with all the cool links here )
|
|
| | | 16 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:29
|
So -- if I kill myself, I get 4x?
I'd like you to have the trophy, SZ. What's your land addy?
Toral
|
|
| | | 17 | Trip Sustainer
ID: 13961611 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:30
|
Allow me to take you back to way back when (war was bad)
Quotes from when Clinton committed troops to Bosnia:
"You can support the troops but not the president." --Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years." --Joe Scarborough (R-FL)
"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?" --Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99
"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy." --Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)
"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy." --Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy." --Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush
"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area." --Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today" --Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." --Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)
Funny thing is, we won that war without a single killed in action
Daily Kos (8/17)
|
|
| | | 18 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:31
|
Is Trip going to be spamming us with dumb atheist articles?
Toral
|
|
| | | 19 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:32
|
Because, if the regular posters here want to be spammed with Christian articles/sermons, they need only ask.
Toral
|
|
| | | 20 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:36
|
Sorry, Trip offers a series of argumentative (there's a better word, but I can't think of it) quotes.
That's mass e-mail stuff, doesn't belong here.
I could amass a bunch of quotes by Democrats, but why bother.
Toral
|
|
| | | 21 | Trip Sustainer
ID: 13961611 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:37
|
Sorry, but the post above reminds me of the neo-spam which I receive from my friends and have to send our replies to the links in Scopes which refute the claims.
It's not fun being blue in a red state. I have a tough enough time debating my friends in person without having to debate all of cyberspace. Don't worry though, I'm holding my own. Thanks to my hard work, a whole 3 out of 12 believe in evolution...it is easy playing poker against them though.
|
|
| | | 22 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Tue, Aug 23, 2005, 01:42
|
Well, OK, you have a good reason. I can see where it would be hard to be "blue in a red state".
I have a tough enough time debating my friends in person without having to debate all of cyberspace. Don't worry though, I'm holding my own.
Isn't there something you admire about them, something you respect? That's what interesting, what makes this board good (or well, used to) that you don't have to "fight your corner" here.
Now some folks like Seattle Zen have never played by these guidelines, but I think that's when this board gets best and most interesting.
Toral
|
|
| | |
| | | 24 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Fri, Aug 26, 2005, 08:44
|
Also from the link:Asked how park employees junior to Mr. Hoffman could summarily reject his proposals, Mr. Barna said that Mr. Hoffman "has been very comfortable with us saying, 'Well, not so fast.' " He added, "Our view of that was he was playing devil's advocate: Gee, Park Service, tell us why you shouldn't do this." My experiences with evolution opponents suggests otherwise but hopefully Barna is right.
|
|
| | | 25 | Tree
ID: 330978 Sat, Jan 07, 2006, 09:34
|
Poll: Public Uneasy With GOP Leadership
WASHINGTON - Dissatisfied with the nation's direction, Americans are leaning toward wanting a change in which political party leads Congress � preferring that Democrats take control, an AP-Ipsos poll found. Democrats are favored over Republicans 49 percent to 36 percent.
the actions of the NSA, the actions of our president, and the actions of several Republicans in congress involving various ethic-related scandals are doing a fine job of seriously damaging this party from within.
Even Newt Gingrich is realizing something that it appears other members of his party aren't realizing - the Republicans are in serious trouble, and they simply don't get what's going on.
personally, i see it as a drunk with power situation. for 10+ years they've controlled congress, and for the past six, they've controlled the presidency as well. as a result, they felt invunerable, and the irresponsible actions of the past 5 or 6 years, particularly the last 3 can be attributed to that.
while i do hope for sweeping changes ala 1994, and i have hopes that in a few years the Democrats will have complete control, i fear these next 12 months could result in a lot of desperate actions by desperate people, as they cling to to their last remnants of power.
|
|
| | | 26 | Boxman
ID: 36044616 Sat, Jan 07, 2006, 10:02
|
This country needs to go in a direction that the current GOP Senate/House leadership is either unwilling (my belief) or incapable of taking us. I'm specifically referring to what I believe our greatest national security weakness is and that is our dependance on foreign oil.
Does anyone see a GOP'er sponsoring a bill or launching an initiative to get alternate energy sources mainstream? I don't either.
That is why I am disenfranchised with the current Republican leadership in both houses. We have a GLARING hole in our national defense, these are supposed to be the people that care about defense, but they do nothing of substance. They'd rather get their fat lobbyist checks and fancy dinners than protect this country. I find that behavior inexcusable and unforgiveable especially in a time of war.
|
|
| | | 27 | biliruben
ID: 531202411 Sun, Mar 12, 2006, 12:26
|
McCain sucking at the teet to try and get the nomination, it seems. Meeting with Falwell, pandering to the southerners; icky icky, John.
|
|
| | | 28 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Mon, Mar 13, 2006, 21:01
|
Now, this is more like it.
The interim head of the Department of the Interior, Patricia “Lynn” Scarlett, once endorsed the legalization of drugs. Back in 1989, she wrote an op-ed column for USA Today titled “Give Up the Drug War: Legalize Drugs Instead.” It’s not known if Scarlett still believes in legalization.
Here’s the abstract: Guest columnist Lynn Scarlett suggests the US stop spending billions of dollars to fuel the futile war on drugs. Legalization is a recommended alternative, which would stop the violence and free federal funds for treatment programs to treat the causes of drug abuse.
That was during Scarlett’s tenure as the president of the Reason Foundation, a libertarian group, where she expressed some controversial views on the environmental movement, the causes of pollution and the need for nutrition labeling
|
|
| | | 29 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Tue, Mar 14, 2006, 04:28
|
Did I not tell you McCain was a whore?
|
|
| | | 30 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 251116277 Tue, Mar 14, 2006, 07:40
|
Thet're all whores. Even the best of them.
|
|
| | | 31 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Tue, Mar 14, 2006, 07:58
|
those last two posts, are an insult to whores everywhere.
|
|
| | | 32 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Wed, Mar 15, 2006, 20:34
|
shrubs approval ratings hit yet another all time low.
How low can they go?
What’s more, 58 percent believe Bush is facing a long-term setback from which he’s unlikely to improve. Twenty-six percent think he’s experiencing only a short-term setback, and 11 percent say he’s dealing with no setback at all.
Either that 11% works in the WH (thus further illustrating their blindness to reality) or I want the same drugs they have.
|
|
| | | 33 | bibA Sustainer
ID: 261028117 Wed, Mar 15, 2006, 22:01
|
As much as I personally believe that Bush is a terrible president, I would have to predict that his poll numbers will improve b/t now and the November elections.
His administration will pull out every stop necessary in order to keep from becoming lame ducks in danger of either censure or of facing a threat of impeachment.
|
|
| | | 34 | Tree
ID: 3631375 Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 07:19
|
Sarge, how low can they go?
depends on how high the mountain is that they are plummeting from...
• Just 36 percent of the public approves of Bush's job performance, his lowest-ever rating in AP-Ipsos polling. By contrast, the president's job approval rating was 47 percent among likely voters just before Election Day 2004 and a whopping 64 percent among registered voters in October 2002.
• Only 40 percent of the public approves of Bush's performance on foreign policy and the war on terror, another low-water mark for his presidency. That's down 9 points from a year ago. Just before the 2002 election, 64 percent of registered voters backed Bush on terror and foreign policy.
• Just 35 percent of the public approves of Bush's handling of Iraq, his lowest in AP-Ipsos polling.
|
|
| | | 35 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 09:26
|
I believe the floor for Bush is maybe in the mid-20's somewhere. Remember, there are many evangelicals who back Bush as an almost religious figure--backing him during difficult times is almost expected, and needs to be endured as a condition of faith.
|
|
| | | 36 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 09:40
|
I'm not sure that Bush's low numbers equate into corresponding Republican low numbers. Unfortunately for Democrats, they haven't been able to make much progress despite Bush's incompetence as well as a string of debacles like DeLay, Cunningham and Libby.
If there's any consolation, it might be that centrist Republicans will be more attractive this fall than the divisive leadership that has blamed liberals for all the country's woes since Jimmy Carter.
|
|
| | | 37 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 11:30
|
His administration will pull out every stop necessary in order to keep from becoming lame ducks When the Senate ruled by your own party refuses to even vote on your nominees for the Social Security Board of Trustees, lame duck status has already begun.
I'm not sure that Bush's low numbers equate into corresponding Republican low numbers. Unfortunately for Democrats ...
This, I think, is likely the case. I, for example, and fairly negative on Bush. But it's from his right, not the left. There was a Molly Ivins column recently where she laid out the three things Democrats could offer as proactive agenda to attract people disgruntled with Bush. I am vehemently opposed to two of those agenda items and would vote for the Devil before voting for someone who espoused those things. And maybe I already did do this.
What we are seeing, I think, is a stretching of the left-right spectrum, and perhaps even greater allegiance to other dimensions. Any politician who plants themselves somewhere in the middle, which most do these days, will eventually find masses on both sides who oppose them. Not to mention those who are either north or south.
Poll numbers for a politician who's been around this long, and who admittedly holds stubbornly to positions, is going to build up animosity. It's just a matter of time. Add to that the emotional issues involved with war. Add to that an inability to talk your way out of a kindergarten class, and that's the recipe for the current poll numbers.
But that isn't necessarily an indicator of the next election.
A better indicator of the next election is the quality of candidates a party is able to field. This, for mostly coincidental reasons, IMO, also leans Democrat at the moment. Whether that's far enough their way to overcome the large structural disadvantage they face with the numbers in the Senate or House this year remains to be seen.
|
|
| | | 38 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 18:40
|
If there's any consolation, it might be that centrist Republicans will be more attractive this fall than the divisive leadership - PV
Unfortunately it is those centrists who are willing to outspend even democrats. Conservatives would have reined in all this spending.
|
|
| | | 39 | Boxman
ID: 1434174 Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 20:25
|
"Conservatives would have reined in all this spending."
How true. And conservatives who are actually tough on defense and don't just inflate the defense budget to reward previous employers would have found a 6+ foot Arab who uses a cane to walk according to videotapes, responsible for 3,000 murders inside the United States, in a mountain region of Afghanistan within five years and would not have cared about going into Pakistan to find him.
Nor would an army led by a real conservative would have allowed him to escape at Tora Bora. They would have gone for the throat and pulled the Adam's Apple out as a trophy and then placed his head on the tallest spire in this country where it belongs as a reminder as to what happens when you hurt this country.
Add the justice of the murdered Americans on 9/11 to the long list of things Neo-Cons care nothing about but use the conservative banner to act as if they do.
|
|
| | | 40 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Sun, Apr 16, 2006, 01:02
|
shrub as blind as always
Senior retired US Army Officers are calling for rummys resignation. When will this admin learn, that laws and responsibilities are not theirs to flaunt as they will? Or is the more relevant question, when will the American populace wakeup to the nightmare I've been living since Nov 2004?
|
|
| | | 41 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 428299 Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 14:13
|
Michelle Cottie for Andrew Sullivan: But I also think McClellan had a harder time [than Fleischer] in the job because, deep down, he was more uncomfortable being dishonest. McClellan always looked strained and slightly gassy when dishing out whatever bologna the administration had fed him.
|
|
| | | 42 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 428299 Tue, Apr 25, 2006, 15:31
|
The true defeatists today are not those who call for recognizing the facts on the ground in Iraq. The true defeatists are those who believe America is so weak that it must sacrifice its principles to the pursuit of illusory power.
The true pessimists today are not those who know that America can handle the truth about the Administration’s boastful claim of “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq. The true pessimists are those who cannot accept that America’s power and prestige depend on our credibility at home and around the world. The true pessimists are those who do not understand that fidelity to our principles is as critical to national security as our military power itself.
And the most dangerous defeatists, the most dispiriting pessimists, are those who invoke September 11th to argue that our traditional values are a luxury we can no longer afford.
Let’s call it the Bush-Cheney Doctrine. April 22, 2006
|
|
| | | 43 | Boxman
ID: 1641754 Fri, May 05, 2006, 07:15
|
Not sure of the direction of the Republican Party, but apparently the direction of the Democratic Party is straight into a road barricade.
""Sometime around 2:45 a.m., I drove the few blocks to the Capitol complex believing I needed to vote," he said. "Apparently, I was disoriented from the medication.""
"Kennedy said police drove him home after the crash, but that he did not "ask for any special consideration.""
"There was no indication from the sources that a sobriety test was given or that an arrest was made."
So a Kennedy drives his car into a barricade and the cops don't have the wherewithall to give him a sobriety test? I'm deciding what scares me more, powerful political families or incompetent cops. At least they were nice enough to drive him home which is what I'm sure they would do for the rest of us.
|
|
| | | 44 | Myboyjack
ID: 5354818 Fri, May 05, 2006, 08:07
|
I'm just glad it wasn't Cynthia McKinney - Capitol Police might have opened fire on the vehicle.
Still no word on whether the young lady found floating in the reflecting pool had been a passenger in Kennedey's car before the crash.
|
|
| | | 45 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Fri, May 05, 2006, 09:26
|
powerful political families
so, i guess you voted for someone other than Bush in the last two presidential elections?
|
|
| | | 46 | Razor
ID: 36241218 Fri, May 05, 2006, 09:27
|
Re: 43 - I actually heard it was worse than that on NPR. They said that two cops showed up but were halted from doing anything and two higher ranking cops arrived on the scene and drove him home.
Disgusting, if true, which I'm sure it is.
|
|
| | | 47 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 09:45
|
"so, i guess you voted for someone other than Bush in the last two presidential elections?"
No. I'll never vote for a Democrat for President. Last time you guys were in charge it took two of you to run the country. I'm against big government. Remember, "We are the President."?
|
|
| | | 48 | Razor
ID: 36241218 Fri, May 05, 2006, 09:51
|
Against big government but for Bush, eh? You don't want to go down that road. Too easy.
|
|
| | | 49 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, May 05, 2006, 10:04
|
They are in denial. Small means big. Big means small. Clinton shrunk the size of government to its smallest size in many decades and balanced the budget, yet Boxman didn't t want to vote for him because he's "against big government."
Voted for Bush, who has ballooned government and has the largest budget deficit ever. Presumably because Laura Bush would remain silent.
God forbid we get an uppity woman.
|
|
| | | 50 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 10:05
|
The problem Razor is that a lot of times we're given the choice of the lesser of two evils. I'm sure the left wing apologistas (Notice how fast Tree was to ignore a universally dumb move by Kennedy?) will now spew forth about how Bush is evil, but seriously look at the alternatives. Neither Gore nor Kerry were very comforting.
I was glad he beat McCain. I have nothing but the highest respect for him because he has a REAL military record (not just shooting himself for a medal or defending us against the mighty Mexican airforce in the Texas Air National Guard), but I just see him as someone who would've broken down over the course of the job and would've been too wiffle waffly.
The way I saw things I gave him a mulligan on his first term because of 9/11. I liked the tax cuts. Now he runs up against Kerry. His campaign song should've been "Run To The Hills" by Iron Maiden. I was disappointed that was the best you guys could do.
The second term, other than Roberts and Alito, has been a disaster. Honestly I don't even factor Iraq into that. I wanted domestic improvements like social security reform, another round of tax cuts and downsizing government by the bushel. Obviously we're not getting that.
So in the meantime I stimulate myself on political opiates like another "Drukennedy" like my Ann calls them and await 2008.
|
|
| | | 51 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 10:21
|
The problem Razor is that a lot of times we're given the choice of the lesser of two evils.
That's what the choices will usually be in a two party system. When was the last time it wasn't a choice between the lessr of two evils for any significant portion of the country? 1992? 1984?
I was disappointed that was the best you guys could do.
Why, if you'll never vote Democrat anyway?
|
|
| | | 52 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Fri, May 05, 2006, 10:30
|
shooting himself for a medal
I know it's frowned upon here, but....
**sigh**
|
|
| | | 53 | Razor
ID: 36241218 Fri, May 05, 2006, 10:31
|
Last time you guys were in charge it took two of you to run the country.
So, what's the difference between Hillary Clinton's influence and Karl Rove's? The fact that she's a woman? The fact that she's the First Lady? You'd be hard pressed to argue that Rove has less influence than Hillary.
|
|
| | | 54 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 10:34
|
"That's what the choices will usually be in a two party system. When was the last time it wasn't a choice between the lessr of two evils for any significant portion of the country? 1992? 1984?"
I'd say 1984 for Reagan's second term. Big Daddy Bush was too CIA-like for my taste so I don't look at 1988 or 1992. I smelled out Bubba as a flim flam man in 1992. Dole wasn't half bad but he made Al Gore look like Gallagher the comedian personality wise. Although four years of Norm MacDonald impersonations would've been worth it.
"I was disappointed that was the best you guys could do.
Why, if you'll never vote Democrat anyway?"
Because blind pigs can find acorns every now and then.
|
|
| | | 55 | Razor
ID: 36241218 Fri, May 05, 2006, 11:23
|
If and when the Democrats nominate a highly intelligent, reasonably moderate, charasmatic, high integrity candidate like Barack, Warner or Bayh, I doubt you vote Democrat, but keep believing it's because you don't like "big government."
|
|
| | | 56 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Fri, May 05, 2006, 11:27
|
Notice how fast Tree was to ignore a universally dumb move by Kennedy?)
i didn't ignore anything. if he was DUI, then he broke the law, and oughta be prosecuted for it. then again, what's good for the Bush is good for the Kennedy, eh, when it comes to DUI?
"so, i guess you voted for someone other than Bush in the last two presidential elections?"
No. I'll never vote for a Democrat for President.
i don't think i suggested that. i suggested that maybe you voted for someone else other than Bush...
apparently not...
Last time you guys were in charge it took two of you to run the country. I'm against big government. Remember, "We are the President."?
i think this was touched on.
what wasn't touched on is that you seem to be completely in favor of Big Government, as evidenced by your desire to build a wall and staff it, to keep immigrants out.
honestly, i can't imagine anything bigger in government than the monsterosity that would be.
Because blind pigs can find acorns every now and then.
which, of course, is more often than anyone associated with the Bush Regime. all they can find are laws to break.
|
|
| | | 57 | Myboyjack
ID: 27651610 Fri, May 05, 2006, 11:31
|
reasonably moderate, ........ candidate like Barack
Being all over the place on issues does not make one "reasonably moderate" - it is evidence of one having more ambition than principal, which is the unfortunate impression I am developing of Obama.
|
|
| | | 58 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 11:43
|
It does when you look at the spokespeople for the left, Michael Moore, George Soros and Cindy Sheahan.
|
|
| | | 59 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, May 05, 2006, 11:53
|
And the right: Jerry Falwell, Sean Hannity, Rick Santorum.
|
|
| | | 60 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Fri, May 05, 2006, 12:01
|
i don't even know how you managed to stop at three, PD.
|
|
| | | 61 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, May 05, 2006, 12:07
|
There are lots. But the point is that when you look at the far left or the far right as the "spokesmen" you miss the point of the vast middle.
Now, I really don't know what Boxman's problem is with Cindy (who, like most Americans, are at this point baffled by the reasons for the war in Iraq). Nevertheless, looking at a thin slice of extremists would, at best, give you a distorted view of the "other side" and give you no opportunitied for connectiveness.
|
|
| | | 62 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 12:43
|
Nevertheless, looking at a thin slice of extremists would, at best, give you a distorted view of the "other side" and give you no opportunitied for connectiveness.
How do you cordially disagree with someone whose every reference to opposing perspectives is mockingly presented as an extremist point of view and who will rarely if ever acknowledge any merit to the opposition or those who stand for it? Sure everyone takes cheap shots from time to time. Occasionally, some are even poignant. But when they are the only terms under which the discussion about the opposition will occur, congenial nicities become difficult, to say the least, and meaningful debate is usually pointless.
|
|
| | | 63 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 12:45
|
"But when they are the only terms under which the discussion about the opposition will occur, congenial nicities become difficult, to say the least, and meaningful debate is usually pointless."
Especially when someone rips you for using anecdotal stories in one thread but then uses them in another for their "benefit".
|
|
| | | 64 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, May 05, 2006, 12:50
|
Feelings hurt?
:)
|
|
| | | 65 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 13:10
|
Boxman
To respond on the topic to which you replied, I believe I've shown myself quite willing to discuss conservative politics in objective terms. You simply cannot say that about yourself with regard to liberal politics. That is reason 1a for why many forum regulars give you a hard time and most of the others don't even acknowledge you.
To respond to your inaplicable reply, I have never "ripped you" for simply "using anecdotal stories". I ripped you for employing anecdotes in an argument that called for statistical evidence to make a case. I then ripped you some more for getting caught trying to play it off when you had no clue what I meant by "anecdotal evidence". And now I'm ripping you for apparently still not knowing when an anecdotal argument can be persuasive and when it can't and when it attempts a greater point and when it is simply used as an aside.
|
|
| | | 66 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 13:12
|
Yes. I'm the victim. :)
"Now, I really don't know what Boxman's problem is with Cindy"
You're kidding, right?
"Nevertheless, looking at a thin slice of extremists would, at best, give you a distorted view of the "other side" and give you no opportunitied for connectiveness."
Then again you don't see the "moderate" liberals running away from it do you?
|
|
| | | 67 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 13:14
|
"That is reason 1a for why many forum regulars give you a hard time and most of the others don't even acknowledge you."
You know you're doing the right thing when certain people criticize you. As far as them ignoring me, well that's a rude thing to say on a Friday, Cinco De Mayo to boot. That hurts my feeeeeeelings.
|
|
| | | 68 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 13:21
|
Then again you don't see the "moderate" liberals running away from it do you?
Oh we most certainly might. But we sure know you can't.
|
|
| | | 69 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 13:27
|
And really, when you say "most forum regulars". How many times can a bunch of liberals pat each other on the back and echo each others thoughts? Some of you guys are pretty reasonable and fun to talk with, but others, lookout! 2 minute hate time!
"Then again you don't see the "moderate" liberals running away from it do you?
Oh we most certainly might. But we sure know you can't."
I run away from radical liberals like a scalded chihuahua. I'm pretty sure you meant me running from far right conservatives. I don't run, but I do prance.
Trust me, I'm much more critical of my own backyard than you are of yours.
|
|
| | | 72 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 13:47
|
I run away from radical liberals like a scalded chihuahua.
Perhaps thats why you haven't shown the ability to distinguish them from moderates.
I'm pretty sure you meant me running from far right conservatives.
No, I didn't. I meant what I wrote, that you can't see the "moderate" liberals running away from [extremists]. I say this because you can't even objectively acknowledge moderate liberal positions. Even when you refer to moderate liberals you put the term in quotes.
Trust me, I'm much more critical of my own backyard than you are of yours.
I'm sure you think you have me pegged but you're a newbie here, boy.
|
|
| | | 73 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 13:48
|
"I'm sure you think you have me pegged but you're a newbie here, boy."
How Sergio Leone of you!
I'm imagining you spitting out some chaw, loading your six shooter and mounting your trusty steed to patrol rotoguru.com for them dang disorganized varmits right after you posted that. All that's missing is Ecstasy Of Gold playing in the background or some Lorne Greene.
|
|
| | | 74 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 14:15
|
Once again you display your penchant for foregoing any greater points. Though in your defense, what could you be expected to say?
You're surely not going to disagree and make a case that you do objectively consider liberal positions, much less show a modicrum of respect for them
or that you even acknowledge moderates among the opposition
or that you could possibly understand anything about my political positions beyond what I've written in the past 4 months.
After all, you've shown that you don't quite grasp even that much.
Tellingly, your only response is to say that my pointing out that your 5 or 6 months worth of ignorant posts and pathetic display of reading comp are a fair indicator that you can't possibly begin to know whom I have historically been critical of over the years reminds you of Sergio Leone.
But then that's right in line with the overall quality of your contributions here.
|
|
| | | 75 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 14:27
|
"You're surely not going to disagree and make a case that you do objectively consider liberal positions, much less show a modicrum of respect for them"
You're right I don't. I have zero respect and zero tolerance for the liberal party that thinks (falsely) that they know what's best for the American people. That government is the answer. The government is AN answer, the wrong answer. 99.99% Ivory Soap amount of time, government is dead wrong. They are glorified paper pushers, thugs, yes men, glad handers, felons awaiting a conviction that will never come, and dolts. The whole stinking lot of them. I side with the one party that SHOULD want to shrink government. That's why Boldwin and I get irate when our party gets hijacked.
Liberalism, the notion that government knows best, is the height of arrogance.
|
|
| | | 76 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 14:31
|
Well when you enter the discussion with "zero respect" for the other guy and his opinions you shouldn't be surprised when thats exactly what you get in return. Its what you ask for.
|
|
| | | 77 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Fri, May 05, 2006, 14:32
|
Box - i think it says a lot that the conservatives on this board aren't coming to your defense, aren't taking you under their wing, or anything akin to that.
we've seen lots of folks come on and go here, who have similar "arguments" as yours. but they all, sooner or later, go.
FWIW, in regards to MITH's newbie comment - i've been here 3 or 4 or maybe even 5 years at this point, and there are plenty of times where i still feel like a newbie...
if you do stick around, you've got a lot to learn.
|
|
| | | 78 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 14:36
|
Mith: "Well when you enter the discussion with "zero respect" for the other guy and his opinions you shouldn't be surprised when thats exactly what you get in return. Its what you ask for."
No, it is a response to arrogance.
Tree: This is a message board. Nothing more, nothing less.
|
|
| | | 79 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, May 05, 2006, 14:40
|
No, it is a response to arrogance.
LOL!
|
|
| | | 80 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, May 05, 2006, 14:47
|
you don't see the "moderate" liberals running away from it do you?
ROFL! Like Coulter, the arguments are so stupid they are either brilliant satire or the work of a mind which just is going through the motions.
Let's see: I point out that the extremists you cite don't represent the Democratic Party as a whole. You reply by saying that there aren't any moderate Democrats dissassociating themselves from it.
Here's our next discussion:
Boxman: All Democrats have brown eyes.
Me: My eyes are green.
Boxman: You don't see any Democrats saying they have green eyes, do you?
heh heh.
|
|
| | | 81 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Fri, May 05, 2006, 15:16
|
Perm Dude: I've actually found you to be a sensible individual. More than I can say for Mith & Tree.
"Let's see: I point out that the extremists you cite don't represent the Democratic Party as a whole. You reply by saying that there aren't any moderate Democrats dissassociating themselves from it."
Then where is the widespread condemnation of people like Moore, Soros, and for some of things Sheehan does?
|
|
| | | 82 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, May 05, 2006, 15:22
|
The same places you see condemnation of the far right from Republicans, Boxman. Mostly muted. Knowing that there is not much one can really do about extremists.
What you need to do is realize that, like Republicans, Democrats aren't defined by their extremes. I'm sure that if you were familiar with most of the centrist Dems (like at ndol.org) that you would find yourself nodding in agreement far more than not.
|
|
| | | 83 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Fri, May 05, 2006, 15:33
|
Perm Dude: I've actually found you to be a sensible individual. More than I can say for Mith & Tree.
the funny thing is that the same two people you insult, have also tried to help you learn the ropes around here. but, someone like you, insults like that don't surprise.
perhaps you are right when you say This is a message board. Nothing more, nothing less.
but it's also one where there are serious discussions that go on. sure, there is plenty of trivial and silliness here, but there are more than a few passionate, deep discussions by people who feel strongly about their beliefs.
people here have group blogs together. people here have met, and opened their homes to each other. there is a bit of a kinship amongst those who frequent this place, regardless of how vehemently some may disagree with others.
i guess that's part of why you don't get it, because, simply put, you don't care.
|
|
| | | 84 | Myboyjack
ID: 5354818 Fri, May 05, 2006, 15:44
|
That's why Boldwin and I get irate when our party gets hijacked.
When you say "our" I guess you have a mouse in your pocket, because I'm sure that Boldwin is not a Republican and would resuse to be associated with the GOP.
|
|
| | | 85 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Fri, May 05, 2006, 15:51
|
The second part is certainly true, MBJ. But his continued apologistic posts regarding anyone Republican combined with his slams regarding anyone Democratic makes the first point moot.
|
|
| | | 86 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Fri, May 05, 2006, 16:03
|
Boxman:
May I inquire as to why you post here? If you do not have any respect for the arrogant opinions of liberals, why waste time in a place that has a few of them airing this arrogance? This is an honest question, I am curious about what you like about this forum.
What do you find objectionable about Cindy Sheehan? George Soros? Please don't answer, "You're kidding, right?" because I'm not kidding, I want to read your answer.
May I make a suggestion? When you cut and paste a portion of a previous post, could you please make it italicised. You do that by typing [i]put your section here[/i] but use these > < instead of these [ ]. It makes it a lot easier to follow your posts.
|
|
| | | 87 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Fri, May 05, 2006, 18:11
|
Boxman = Cosmo's Cod Piece?
|
|
| | | 88 | Boxman
ID: 1641754 Fri, May 05, 2006, 19:55
|
"May I inquire as to why you post here? If you do not have any respect for the arrogant opinions of liberals, why waste time in a place that has a few of them airing this arrogance?"
I found the politics forum linked with the sports site. Thought it would be fun.
"What do you find objectionable about Cindy Sheehan? George Soros?"
I don't appreciate Americans who associate themselves with socialist dictators during a time of war. Sheehan is using her son's death as an excuse to promote her own agenda. Sort of like a modern day Hanoi Jane.
As for Soros, here and here.
Pancho Villa: "Boxman = Cosmo's Cod Piece?"
Huh?
|
|
| | | 89 | Tree
ID: 5411517 Fri, May 05, 2006, 22:43
|
Sheehan is using her son's death as an excuse to promote her own agenda.
that she doesn't want any more soldiers to die? yea, what a sh!tty agenda.
|
|
| | | 90 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Sat, May 06, 2006, 13:19
|
Boxman:
I didn't ask you how you found this place or why you started posting here, I asked you why you continue to post here. Did you notice how the word "continue" was all leaning to the side? Those are "italics". You should try them. Seriously.
"What do you find objectionable about Cindy Sheehan?" - I don't appreciate Americans who associate themselves with socialist dictators during a time of war.
Really? Which "socialist dictator" do you speak of? Perhaps you are refering to Mr. Hussain, but you would be making a big mistake if you were for Ms. Sheehan spoke out against the war long after Saddam was captured. Furthermore, regardless of what Ms. Coulter or those of her ilk may claim, not a single war protestor has "associated" with Saddam, NOT A ONE. I hope that you can see a difference between being against the war and supporting Hussain. If you see no difference, that would make me very sad for you for you are bringing shame upon what ever school you graduated from.
As for Soros, I am at a loss here. Your first link is to a Lynden LaRouche website. Are you familiar with Lynden? Perhaps you should investigate his past and what he holds dear - think L. Ron Hubbard. Linking to a LaRouche site is like walking out of the restroom with a mile of toilet paper on each shoe, it's awfully embarrassing.
Personally, I love George Soros because he has spent so much time, effort and money fighting the ridiculously misguided War on Drugs. I was a board member of Seattle initiative I-75, which made the arrest of adults with marijuana the lowest arrest priority of the Seattle Police Department. We spent two years fighting for this cause, raised $180,000, and won 58%-42% in September 2003. We received a grant from the Lindesmith Center which was created by George Soros. Ask people on these boards and across America and you will find support for measures like this from the entire political range. There is no government program that destroys your freedom quite like the criminal justice system.
I've read the personal smear attacks against Soros, most of which were created during the 2004 presidential campaign and I had to laugh. A bunch of Republicans bemoaning the fact that this capitalist created his enormous wealth through the free market of currency - shouldn't they be praising him for this like an international Warren Buffett? But he holds progressive political opinions, so he must be involved with international drug cartels. Ridiculous and never proven at all. If you think that George Soros is "extreme" because he believes that the US War on Some Drugs is a international abomination, label me "extreme" as well as quite a large percentage of this country.
That said, YOU are easily the most wild-eyed radical amongst us.
I have zero respect and zero tolerance for the liberal party that thinks (falsely) that they know what's best for the American people. That government is the answer. The government is AN answer, the wrong answer. 99.99% Ivory Soap amount of time, government is dead wrong. They are glorified paper pushers, thugs, yes men, glad handers, felons awaiting a conviction that will never come, and dolts. The whole stinking lot of them.
Amongst the "stinking lot" are every soldier, sailor, police officer, firefighter. Here's a quiz for everyone, Boxman will have to provide the answers, though, as I'm not sure.
Please connect the Stinking Lot on the Left to the proper answer on the Right
1. Soldier a. Thug 2. Sailor b. Felon awaiting a conviction 3. Police Officer c. glad handler 4. Firefighter d. yes man
Your childish diatribe against government in all its form is nothing short of anarchy. Ever had an urge to join a militia?
We all eagerly await the answers to the quiz.
|
|
| | | 91 | The Treasonists
ID: 571192610 Sat, May 06, 2006, 20:45
|
Boxman: Now you know how George Will feels every Sunday morning.
|
|
| | | 92 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Sat, May 06, 2006, 21:48
|
When he reads Ann Coulter. Shock that someone can continue to be so stupid and continue to get read.
|
|
| | | 93 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Mon, May 08, 2006, 09:27
|
The Treasonists: "Now you know how George Will feels every Sunday morning."
Yes, and also how Charlton Heston felt in The Omega Man.
|
|
| | | 94 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Mon, May 08, 2006, 09:44
|
And also Dustin Hoffman in The Rain Man.
Heh heh.
|
|
| | | 95 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Mon, May 08, 2006, 09:52
|
He was the smartest guy in the room by 10 miles; counted cards in Vegas and toothpicks just laying on the floor, smart enough to know flying is a bad idea, inherited his dad's estate, and did 4 digit multiplication in his head. I think he also had an impressive baseball card collection. Thank you for the compliment.
|
|
| | | 96 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:03
|
I was thinking Vincent D'Onofrio in Full Metal Jacket.

|
|
| | | 97 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:05
|
His ignorance is his jelly donut.
|
|
| | | 98 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:23
|
When the opposition thinks they prove their point by not being able to discern a soldier from a Senator or making the wildy false and sub-inteligent accusation of thinking that I do not, post cartoons and make personal comments about me in another thread, call me a synonym for a cock piece in this thread, compare me to Rain Man as if being able to do the things he does is an insult and then resort to false accusations of obesity, I now have the highest appreciation for anyone who posts here and is not a liberal. It is truly like being George Will or Heston in that movie.
|
|
| | | 99 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:31
|
then resort to false accusations of obesity
'Pvt. Pyle' refers to you continually getting your ass kicked here. Quite accurate. Its funny hearing you whine about personal attacks since you're no stranger to unprovked ad hominem yourself.
|
|
| | | 100 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:32
|
I don't know about the rest, Boxman, but Cosmo's Cod Piece was simply a previous conservative poster who's shoot-from-the-hip, facts-be-damned posting "style" was extremely similar to yours.
I think the person was thinking he may have returned under a different guise, is all.
|
|
| | | 101 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:35
|
Even Chuck Norris could not fight off a mob of one armed half brained secular progressives if they arrived in sufficient numbers. Not because they are correct, but even Chuck Norris could not roundhouse kick without ankles after all the biting.
|
|
| | | 102 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:38
|
"but Cosmo's Cod Piece was simply a previous conservative poster who's shoot-from-the-hip, facts-be-damned posting "style" was extremely similar to yours"
Huh. I wonder if you drove that poster batty with one lined smart retorts, cartoon images, flipping the rules of anecdotes on him, and countless other pre-pubescent annoyances?
Seems to me that conservatives on this message board, part of a manly man sports board nonetheless, are rarer than thin women who are Packer fans. I wonder if there's a reason for that. Nah, couldn't be.
|
|
| | | 103 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:44
|
For a few years after 9-11, basking in the jingoism that tragedy bred, the situation was reversed. This board was populated almost exclusively by hawkish conservatives and pro-war dems. Anyone poking their head up to speak reason was labeled a traitor. What comes around goes around.
|
|
| | | 104 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Mon, May 08, 2006, 10:54
|
It isn't our numbers that continually leave you with egg on your face. It's that thing about you always being so poorly-informed all the time. In just about every thread in which you've posted you've been exposed as not really quite knowing what you are talking about to one extent or another.
FWIW, Boxman, your energy is an asset to the forum, or, rather, it can be. We need more active posters on the right. I (and everyone else, I'm sure) just wish you'd take the extra time to research a little and accept the idea that someone who disagrees with you might have a better grasp of the topic. You might also consider curbing those broad blanket mantras that you don't actually mean nearly as literally as you insist, such as "government is never the answer" and "shall not be infringed". They make you look even more silly. But if you did mean what you wrote earlier in this thread, that you have zero respect for liberals and their positions, then you're getting exactly what you deserve. You have no right to expect a shred of respect from anyone who you deem not worthy of it from you. Hopefully that was another of your silly broad statements that you really didn't intend literally.
|
|
| | | 105 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Mon, May 08, 2006, 11:06
|
flipping the rules of anecdotes on him
Perhaps this will help.
|
|
| | | 106 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Mon, May 08, 2006, 11:23
|
Mith: Even the most mature person loses it when confronted with numbers. Again, it has nothing to do with the opposition being correct, it's just the volume of it all.
As far as me not knowing what I am talking about, I would imagine that would be your approach to most conservatives.
"zero respect for liberals and their positions"
I firmly believe that the American people and the free market is capable of getting us out of almost any hole sans The Great Depression. I see simple solutions to moderate problems by people making $15 per hour (sometimes less) every week. I see a lot more getting done by the American public on a daily basis than I do by our government.
Government cannot solve problems and does a tinkle-poor job of protecting us. Have we "solved" communism? We still haven't ended the Korean War technically. We've still got Castro holed up in Cuba. The list goes on. Where was our protection at Pearl Harbor, on 9/11, during Katrina? What is the last problem government has solved? I believe, it is all because of politics, because feeeeeeeeelings could be hurt, and lack of objective thought.
|
|
| | | 107 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Mon, May 08, 2006, 11:36
|
Mith: Even the most mature person loses it when confronted with numbers. Again, it has nothing to do with the opposition being correct, it's just the volume of it all.
1. you lost it pretty early on. it wasn't a gradual "losing it", but more so from the get go.
2. those numbers against you oughta speak volume for what you say. there are still several active conservatives here, who have been here for many, many years. with the exception of Baldwin - who's always willing to embrace a fellow "toe the line, quote the mantra" type of conservative, they really haven't come to your defense. at all.
|
|
| | | 108 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Mon, May 08, 2006, 12:00
|
As far as me not knowing what I am talking about, I would imagine that would be your approach to most conservatives.
On the contrary, I've learned plenty from smart conservatives over the years at this forum. As much as I have clashed with Baldwin and Toral, they have been at times invaluable contributers. Madman can always be counted on to point out a side of a topic I otherwise wouldn't have seen and I have no lack of respect for Myboyjack and Sludge, either. I most cases it would be a stretch to say that my best work here has matched theirs. I defer to those people on a myriad of topics and it is a very rare thing when I disagree with any of them on factual issues and find myself in the right.
Regarding the rest of your post, I suppose I can find some common ground with you on some levels in there (maybe,) although for the most part I disagree with your greater positions, stated and apparent. But that doesn't mean that I don't respect the opinions of people who disagree with me or that I don't respect your idiology or you for subscribing to it. I understand there are competing schools of thought and respect that the other side's values have some merit, even if I think mine are generally superior.
But having "zero respect" for the other side is a whole different thing. Baldwin has expressed similar sentiments at times and has caught lots of heat for it over the years. But with all due respect, Boxman, you can't hold a candle to Baldwin's understanding of politics topics (especially recent history and particularly issues concerning religion).
|
|
| | | 110 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, May 08, 2006, 16:47
|
Wow, this is a good one. I love that "Full Metal Jacket" photo. Hey, Mr. D'Onofrio is very good, and weird, in his Law & Order show, but alas, the producers are moving towards Chris Noth.
MITH: Off to better year this year, our Yankees, than our won-lost record. I am encouraged by 2 of our 3 wonderfinds from last year continuing to pitch well (Wang and Chacon).
What's wrong with a little government? Someone's got to make and enfoce the rules, right? However, Big Gov't Cheney and the boys surely are not subscribing to that typical conservative view. They're conservative when it comes to killin and some social values, but surely not when it comes to spendin'. Spend, spend, spend, they do! The dang budget deficit scorecard over in times sq (I can just about see it from my office here in Midtown) is almost running out of digits!
$200M budgeted for the federal abstinence program. Ugh.
Hey, check out this article in today's NYT about the new Rovian strategy to avoid losing the mid-term erections:
Rove's Mid-term Strategy
I hope the democrats stop whimping out already and go on the true attack. Rove's successful, even if I disagree with his tactics and beliefs. Gotta have more checks & balances in our land.
- walk
|
|
| | | 111 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Mon, May 08, 2006, 18:17
|
Let's Drop Any Semblance of Independent Thought
Career appointees at the Department of Agriculture were stunned last week to receive e-mailed instructions that include Bush administration "talking points" -- saying things such as "President Bush has a clear strategy for victory in Iraq" -- in every speech they give for the department.
"The President has requested that all members of his cabinet and sub-cabinet incorporate message points on the Global War on Terror into speeches, including specific examples of what each agency is doing to aid the reconstruction of Iraq," the May 2 e-mail from USDA speechwriter Heather Vaughn began.
The e-mail, sent to about 60 undersecretaries, assistant secretaries and other political appointees, was also sent to "a few people to whom it should not have gone," said the department's communications director, Terri Teuber . The career people, we are assured, are not being asked to spread the great news on Iraq in their talks to food stamp recipients, disadvantaged farmers, enviros or other folks.
The e-mail provided language "being used by Secretary [Michael O.] Johanns and deputy secretary [Charles F.] Conner in all of their remarks and is being sent to you for inclusion in your speeches."
Another attachment "contains specific examples of GWOT messages within agriculture speeches. Please use these message points as often as possible and send Harry Phillips , USDA's director of speechwriting, a weekly email summarizing the event, date and location of each speech incorporating the attached language. Your responses will be included in a weekly account sent to the White House."
This is not from The Onion, folks.
|
|
| | | 112 | Boxman
ID: 3942095 Tue, May 09, 2006, 06:26
|
Walk: "What's wrong with a little government? Someone's got to make and enfoce the rules, right?"
Problem is that it's never a "little" government. Nothing little about getting upwards of a trillion dollars of the peoples money every year and that still is not enough.
|
|
| | | 113 | Tree
ID: 3044495 Tue, May 09, 2006, 06:46
|
Problem is that it's never a "little" government. Nothing little about getting upwards of a trillion dollars of the peoples money every year and that still is not enough.
problem is that some people would never vote for the opposing party even if that's what they did, and promised to continue to do.
if the Dems come in and win the presidency and congress over 2006 and 2008, and turned things around, you still wouldn't vote for them next time around.
|
|
| | | 114 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Tue, May 09, 2006, 07:13
|
It is interesting how the roles have reversed. But I have to admit that I don't believe there are enough good Dems in Congress to trust a Dem majority to curb spending, despite Pelosi's promises. I sure would love for her to prove me wrong.
I also wonder wheich scenerio Dem-haters like Boxman and others would prefer if Dems should take the legislative and executive branches; efficient, fiscally responsible government, over which they'd have to eat much crow - or a continuation of the Republican spending balloon.
I guess the first one, since they'd still get to whine over likely tax increases. And given the tenor of the GOP these days, any projected surplus will likely just become the war chest for the next Republican regime, anyway.
|
|
| | | 115 | Boxman
ID: 3942095 Tue, May 09, 2006, 08:16
|
Mith: "fiscally responsible government" , "they'd still get to whine over likely tax increases"
So you propose spending our way out of problems? Taxing the American people into oblivion at times of record high energy prices; electric, natural gas, and gasoline?
Or, what would you cut?
That's the arrogance of liberalism. The false notion that you know how to spend the people's money.
|
|
| | | 116 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 09, 2006, 08:50
|
So you propose spending our way out of problems? Taxing the American people into oblivion at times of record high energy prices; electric, natural gas, and gasoline?
...? Sheesh, calm down. You're like a little dog that starts yelping every time its owner gets up, thinking he's about to get some dinner. I haven't proposed anything.
That's the arrogance of liberalism. The false notion that you know how to spend the people's money.
Boxman, I've got something terribly disappointing to tell you; American conservativism calls for the expenditure of public funds as well. Conservatives think they "know how to spend the people's money", too. So they're just as "arrogant" (your word, not mine). They simply have different priorities. In fact, looking at the last 20 years, a strong case can be made that it is the GOP that has the record of considerably greater "arrogance".
|
|
| | | 117 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Tue, May 09, 2006, 09:01
|
Rep WH and a Rep Legislative Branch...have led to the fastest deficit growth in the history of the country. Yet, some continue to spew forth the mindless labels of "tax and spend liberals" vs "conservative fiscal responsibility".
Call them neo-cons all you want. THEY are the Rep party of today. To vote for them, is to endorse them by action, regardless of your words.
As for raising taxes in the fave of rising energy costs etc etc....makes a hell of a lot more sense, than cutting taxes in the face of a ballooning federal deficit.
|
|
| | | 118 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Tue, May 09, 2006, 09:44
|
Mith: "I haven't proposed anything."
Precisely.
Sarge: "As for raising taxes in the fave of rising energy costs etc etc....makes a hell of a lot more sense, than cutting taxes in the face of a ballooning federal deficit."
Why do you say so?
|
|
| | | 120 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:05
|
Or, what would you cut?
That's the arrogance of liberalism. The false notion that you know how to spend the people's money.
As opposed to the problem of rabid miltarism, a spend, spend, spend mentality that is rarely challenged while our leaders are constantly driving the "We're at War" mantra, even demanding that message be deployed daily by the Dept of Agriculture.
Boxman constantly regales us with horror projections of Americans at risk of being taxed to death by "liberals," but, predictably, never questions the bloated and inefficient trillions we spend under the false heading of "defense."
This excellent article by Jim Lobe exposes the grandiose waste that sails through our Congress each year, mainly because neither party wants to be labeled as weak on defense.
At some $440 billion for 2007, the Pentagon's defense budget would exceed the combined military budgets of the world's 25 next most-powerful nations, according to recent estimates.
In fact, the Pentagon's budget substantially understates the amount Washington spends on the military. Nuclear weapons activities, on which the George W Bush administration hopes to spend nearly $22 billion next year, for example, are allocated to the Energy Department.
In addition, the regular Pentagon budget does not include the costs of US military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, which currently are running at nearly $10 billion a month.
"When these costs are added in, military spending for the coming year will exceed $600 billion - a figure that would exceed both the heights of the [president Ronald] Reagan military buildup [in the early 1980s] and the Vietnam War, in inflation-adjusted terms," said Miriam Pemberton, the report's co-author based at the Institute for Policy Studies.
That trend cannot be sustained, particularly given the huge budget deficits - more than $400 billion this year - Washington has incurred under Bush's presidency and the projected growth in Pentagon spending as laid out in its Quadrennial Defense Review released earlier this year, according to the report.
At the same time that Pentagon spending continues to grow, however, the Bush administration has recommended some cuts to the homeland security budget.
Thus, even while the Central Intelligence Agency has warned that weapons of mass destruction are mostly likely to enter the US through its ports, the administration intends to spend "four times more deploying a missile defense system that has failed most of its tests than [it] will spend on port security".
The day I see Boxman condemn the blank check that the administration is given under the false heading of "defense" is the day I'll believe he's concerned about taxing the American people into oblivion.
|
|
| | | 121 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:12
|
"Boxman constantly regales us with horror projections of Americans at risk of being taxed to death by "liberals," but, predictably, never questions the bloated and inefficient trillions we spend under the false heading of "defense.""
I haven't?
From post #112, "Problem is that it's never a "little" government. Nothing little about getting upwards of a trillion dollars of the peoples money every year and that still is not enough."
|
|
| | | 122 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:14
|
Pancho Villa: What is your idea? What do you propose our annual defense budget to be? What would you cut?
|
|
| | | 123 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:37
|
I'm not really interested in generic statements. Republicans made a huge issue of Kerry voting against military budgets as if it was irresponsible in 2004.
This government needs to pinpoint all areas of wasteful spending without the burden of being called soft on defense or not compassionate to the underpriviledged on the other side.
Cut welfare, cut entitlements, cut defense, cut bureauracy....hey, sounds like what happened under Clinton and a Republican Congress. But then, there wasn't a non-descript War on Terror back then.
|
|
| | | 124 | Boxman
ID: 2630259 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:49
|
"I'm not really interested in generic statements."
What's this?
"Cut welfare, cut entitlements, cut defense, cut bureauracy....hey, sounds like what happened under Clinton and a Republican Congress. But then, there wasn't a non-descript War on Terror back then."
Sounds like a generic statement with a side order of partisanship.
So again, "What is your idea? What do you propose our annual defense budget to be? What would you cut?"
|
|
| | | 125 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:55
|
We want numbers, PV!
|
|
| | | 126 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:56
|
/sarcasm
|
|
| | | 127 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:56
|
I'll answer for him: Every last f'ing thing. 40% cut across the board. 40% reduction of troops. Close dozens of bases. Stop the construction of those monstrously wasteful bases in Iraq. Pretty simple, really.
|
|
| | | 128 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, May 09, 2006, 10:57
|
Sheesh. I could have sworn I asked Boxman for numbers in a very specific way months ago, and was confronted with a deafening silence (in the NYT crossword this weekend - any guesses?).
|
|
| | | 129 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Tue, May 09, 2006, 11:35
|
This article by Chalmers Johnson is a couple years old, meaning things have only gotten worse since the "Bush mandate" of 2004.
It's not easy to assess the size or exact value of our empire of bases. Official records on these subjects are misleading, although instructive. According to the Defense Department's annual "Base Structure Report" for fiscal year 2003, which itemizes foreign and domestic U.S. military real estate, the Pentagon currently owns or rents 702 overseas bases in about 130 countries and HAS another 6,000 bases in the United States and its territories. Pentagon bureaucrats calculate that it would require at least $113.2 billion to replace just the foreign bases -- surely far too low a figure but still larger than the gross domestic product of most countries -- and an estimated $591,519.8 million to replace all of them. The military high command deploys to our overseas bases some 253,288 uniformed personnel, plus an equal number of dependents and Department of Defense civilian officials, and employs an additional 44,446 locally hired foreigners. The Pentagon claims that these bases contain 44,870 barracks, hangars, hospitals, and other buildings, which it owns, and that it leases 4,844 more.
These numbers, although staggeringly large, do not begin to cover all the actual bases we occupy globally. The 2003 Base Status Report fails to mention, for instance, any garrisons in Kosovo -- even though it is the site of the huge Camp Bondsteel, built in 1999 and maintained ever since by Kellogg, Brown & Root. The Report similarly omits bases in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Qatar, and Uzbekistan, although the U.S. military has established colossal base structures throughout the so-called arc of instability in the two-and-a-half years since 9/11.
Identify which bases are really necessary for defense of this country in the ballistic missle era. Let's start there for cutting the "defense" budget.
|
|
| | | 130 | Pancho Villa
ID: 519522811 Tue, May 09, 2006, 11:39
|
Sounds like a generic statement with a side order of partisanship
A side order of partisanship? You mean crediting a Democratic president and an Republican congress with doing something positive is displaying partisanship in your book?
And here I thought i was doing just the opposite.
|
|
| | | 131 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Tue, May 09, 2006, 13:45
|
that's it! i'm revoking your Liberal Generalization card. You praised a Republican congress, and that's unacceptable!
|
|
| | | 132 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Tue, May 09, 2006, 22:19
|
Sarge: "As for raising taxes in the fave of rising energy costs etc etc....makes a hell of a lot more sense, than cutting taxes in the face of a ballooning federal deficit."
Why do you say so?
ummmmm, because if my outgoing expenses are $50 and my income is $60, then I increase my expenses to $75, how does decreasing my income to $45, paint a brighter picture?
|
|
| | | 133 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Wed, May 10, 2006, 15:34
|
Andrew Sullivan:Bush still Beats Kerry
W is at 31 percent; JFK is at 26 percent. Don't even think about it, Mr Senator. One more thought. Can you imagine how battered a president Kerry would have been by now? He'd be stuck with Bush's Iraq mess; he'd be constantly told he's Neville Chamberlain on Iran for doing exactly what Bush has been doing; he'd be ruthlessly attacked by the Hannity right over Teresa, immigration, gays, and any other cultural issue they could exploit. And the GOP would have escaped the responsibility for their fiscal insanity, while Kerry took lumps for raising taxes. As a matter of principle, I do not regret endorsing Kerry. My decision was based on the manifest incompetence and unconservatism of Bush. But in the sweep of history, it is fitting that Bush, for the first time in his entire life, actually face the consequences of his own recklessness. It is also important for conservatives to see up-front what abandoning limited government and embracing fundamentalism leads to: the collapse of a coherent conservatism. There was a silver lining in Bush's re-election: the unsentimental education of conservative triumphalists.
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 136 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Tue, Aug 15, 2006, 10:45
|
|
|
| | | 137 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Fri, Aug 18, 2006, 00:55
|
The Republican Party is heading south, not Birmingham, Alabama South, but LOSERVILLE.
For the GOP, a Heartland Plunge
When the Columbus Dispatch's respected poll recently reported that Republican Secretary of State Ken Blackwell was trailing Democratic Rep. Ted Strickland by 20 points in the race for governor of Ohio, there was dismay but no shock among his fellow Republicans. Those I interviewed during a recent visit here said they had seen it coming for a long time. But it is a political earthquake.
|
|
| | | 138 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Mon, Sep 11, 2006, 01:34
|

HA!
|
|
| | | 139 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 13:22
|
Bush to hold talks on Borat
i mean, seriously. f*ck Iraq, f*ck Bin Laden, and F*ck everything else. We got Borat to worry about!
Seems kind of silly anyway, even Borat himself will tell you he's got nothing to do with that "Jew", Sacha Baron Cohen.
|
|
| | | 140 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 13:40
|
?
So you're saying that working to maintain and establish new friendly diplomatic ties with countries that (rightfully or not) feel insulted by their portrayal in pop culture is bad while we have a war in Iraq and with bin Laden still at large?
|
|
| | | 141 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 14:39
|
i think holding talks with another country about a comedian who might be offensive to that country is small potatoes compared to some of the larger issues our country is dealing with right now.
|
|
| | | 142 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 14:52
|
Of course it is. But we can't stop all international diplomacy because we have several ongoing crises. Even the reletively small stuff is important. In my opinion one of the most valid criticisms of this administration is it's reluctance for diplomacy. So I find it strange to hear them criticiized for paying attention to small potatos.
|
|
| | | 143 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 16:14
|
This is pretty absurd, MITH..I must say, but I see your point. Chances are, the PM of Kaz called Bush, and what can Bush say in response?: "{rolls his eyes}...sure, whatever." It's even funnier cos Sacha is British but the movie is an American production. I cannot wait to see this film though. I love the Ali G show and this Borat flick is supposed to be very, very funny. I think the guy's brilliant.
Borat Sagdiyev to an American audience in the movie: "We support your war of terror!"
- walk
|
|
| | | 144 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 16:17
|
if we just threw all the jews down the well, life would be much easier.
|
|
| | | 145 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 16:29
|
Classic. That was in an Arizona western bar. How does he do it? I read in the Times that the new movie makes fun of Jewish folk more than any other, and it makes me wonder what kinda Jewish upbringing Cohen had. The Kazhak govt has been complaining about him for years now, and apparently hired media advisors to take outta 4-page ad in the NYT once to support itself. I cannot believe Kaz continues to fight him on his satire. I loved his reply: "Borat has no affiliation with Sacha Baron Cohen..." I watched the 90-second trailer for the movie and even that little bit is hiliarious.
- walk
|
|
| | | 146 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 16:30
|
this has to be the best publicity Kaz has gotten years they should run with it instead of fight it.
|
|
| | | 147 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 16:38
|
Borat TV
They've been fighting it for years -- they don't even hint at self-defacation (pun intended). I just don't get it either. It's a no-brainer for them to have gone along with the joke, but to us folks who like Borat, the reaction of Kaz only makes the whole thing better.
- walk
|
|
| | | 148 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Sep 13, 2006, 17:10
|
the preview for the film had me in hysterics.
the best part is when he plants a long, deep, passionate, tongue kiss on this fairly attractive woman next to him.
"This is my sister," he says, straight faced. "and number four prostitute in all of Kazhakistan."
|
|
| | |
| | | 150 | Perm Dude
ID: 68471717 Sun, Sep 17, 2006, 20:56
|
Is this really what we are about, as Americans?:
14,000 in war prisons
Republicans will no doubt start closing the gap in the next few weeks with their huge ad buys in competitive states (millions of dollars will be dropped just in the next two weeks). But Democrats have to make sure to keep up the pressure that these Republicans aren't even acting very Republican, let alone American.
|
|
| | |
| | | 152 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sun, Sep 17, 2006, 23:05
|
No PD, this is the American Constitution being shredded by the administration.
|
|
| | | 153 | Perm Dude
ID: 68471717 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 01:14
|
What they are doing now is loophole seeking for the Geneva Convention:
"I'm saying that nobody knows what humiliating treatment is. What does it mean?" --National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley
Really? HHJT? [How Would Jesus Torture?]
If I am allowed to quote myself, this is an amazing study in chutzpah.
|
|
| | | 154 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 01:36
|
Wouldnt the definition of "humiliating treatment", be as readily identifiable as "cruel and unusual" in terms of punishment? I've not heard the admin whine about the lack of clarity in that clause.
|
|
| | | 155 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 14:04
|
And if this is so, then they should attempt to define "humiliating treatment," make it public, and then disavow attempts to condone it and conduct it. These are the principles on which civilized societies live by. Bush and his cronies think they are protecting America with these new policies, but they are undermining our country's beliefs, putting our own soldiers in greater harms ways, and relying on a tool (torture) that is ineffective. It's perverse logic and rationale.
- walk
|
|
| | | 156 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 14:09
|
September 18, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist King of Pain By PAUL KRUGMAN
A lot has been written and said about President Bush’s demand that Congress “clarify” the part of the Geneva Conventions that, in effect, outlaws the use of torture under any circumstances.
We know that the world would see this action as a U.S. repudiation of the rules that bind civilized nations. We also know that an extraordinary lineup of former military and intelligence leaders, including Colin Powell, have spoken out against the Bush plan, warning that it would further damage America’s faltering moral standing, and end up endangering U.S. troops.
But I haven’t seen much discussion of the underlying question: why is Mr. Bush so determined to engage in torture?
Let’s be clear what we’re talking about here. According to an ABC News report from last fall, procedures used by C.I.A. interrogators have included forcing prisoners to “stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours”; the “cold cell,” in which prisoners are forced “to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees,” while being doused with cold water; and, of course, water boarding, in which “the prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet,” then “cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him,” inducing “a terrifying fear of drowning.”
And bear in mind that the “few bad apples” excuse doesn’t apply; these were officially approved tactics — and Mr. Bush wants at least some of these tactics to remain in use.
I’m ashamed that my government does this sort of thing. I’d be ashamed even if I were sure that only genuine terrorists were being tortured — and I’m not. Remember that the Bush administration has imprisoned a number of innocent men at Guantánamo, and in some cases continues to imprison them even though it knows they are innocent.
Is torture a necessary evil in a post-9/11 world? No. People with actual knowledge of intelligence work tell us that reality isn’t like TV dramas, in which the good guys have to torture the bad guy to find out where he planted the ticking time bomb.
What torture produces in practice is misinformation, as its victims, desperate to end the pain, tell interrogators whatever they want to hear. Thus Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi — who ABC News says was subjected to both the cold cell and water boarding — told his questioners that Saddam Hussein’s regime had trained members of Al Qaeda in the use of biochemical weapons. This “confession” became a key part of the Bush administration’s case for invading Iraq — but it was pure invention.
So why is the Bush administration so determined to torture people?
To show that it can.
The central drive of the Bush administration — more fundamental than any particular policy — has been the effort to eliminate all limits on the president’s power. Torture, I believe, appeals to the president and the vice president precisely because it’s a violation of both law and tradition. By making an illegal and immoral practice a key element of U.S. policy, they’re asserting their right to do whatever they claim is necessary.
And many of our politicians are willing to go along. The Republican majority in the House of Representatives is poised to vote in favor of the administration’s plan to, in effect, declare torture legal. Most Republican senators are equally willing to go along, although a few, to their credit, have stood with the Democrats in opposing the administration.
Mr. Bush would have us believe that the difference between him and those opposing him on this issue is that he’s willing to do what’s necessary to protect America, and they aren’t. But the record says otherwise.
The fact is that for all his talk of being a “war president,” Mr. Bush has been conspicuously unwilling to ask Americans to make sacrifices on behalf of the cause — even when, in the days after 9/11, the nation longed to be called to a higher purpose. His admirers looked at him and thought they saw Winston Churchill. But instead of offering us blood, toil, tears and sweat, he told us to go shopping and promised tax cuts.
Only now, five years after 9/11, has Mr. Bush finally found some things he wants us to sacrifice. And those things turn out to be our principles and our self-respect.
|
|
| | | 157 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 14:09
|
September 18, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist The Kafka Strategy By BOB HERBERT
The president seemed about to lose it at times last week. He was fighting with everybody — tenacious reporters frustrated by the absence of straight answers about the treatment of terror suspects; key Republican senators who think it’s crazy for a great country like the U.S. to become a champion of kangaroo courts and the degradation of defendants; even his own former secretary of state, Colin Powell, who worries that the world is coming to “doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism.”
It seemed that the only people the president wasn’t fighting with were the Democrats, who have gone into a coma, and the yahoos who never had much of a problem with such matters as torture and detention without trial.
As Marvin Gaye once sang, “What’s going on?”
The people at the top are getting scared, that’s what’s going on. The fog of secrecy is lifting, and the Bush administration is frightened to death that it will eventually have to pay a heavy price for the human rights abuses it has ordered or condoned in its so-called war on terror.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the Geneva Conventions apply to the prisoners seized by the administration, which means that abusing those prisoners — as so many have said for so long — is unquestionably illegal. And there is also the possibility that the Democrats, if they ever wake up, may take control of at least one house of Congress, giving them the kind of subpoena power and oversight that makes the administration tremble.
Bush, Cheney & Co. are desperately trying to hold together a house of cards that is ready to collapse because their strategy and tactics for fighting terrorism were slapped together with no real regard for the rule of law. What we’ve seen over the past few years has been a nightmare version of the United States. Torture? Secret prisons? Capital trials in which key evidence is kept from the accused? That’s the stuff of Kafka, not Madison and Jefferson.
The reason President Bush has been trying so frantically to get Congressional passage of his plan to interrogate and try terror suspects is that he needs its contorted interpretations of the law to keep important cases from falling apart, and to cover the collective keisters of higher-ups who may have authorized or condoned war crimes.
There’s no guarantee that the administration can properly bring to justice even the worst of the bad guys, people like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and 13 other high-profile prisoners who were recently transferred from a secret C.I.A. program to the detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. These are men accused of the most heinous of offenses, crimes that would subject them to the death penalty.
But it’s widely believed that some or all of them were tortured. In civilized countries, evidence obtained by torture is inadmissible in a court of law.
The Bush administration would also like to deny terror suspects, even those facing the death penalty, the right to see evidence against them that is classified. This is a concept that is so far beyond the pale it makes most legal scholars gasp.
“We don’t charge people — particularly in capital offenses, but in minor offenses, as well — without letting them see the evidence that is being offered against them,” said Scott Horton, a prominent New York attorney and Columbia law professor who has done extensive human rights work.
“Let’s imagine you’re a prosecutor,” said Mr. Horton. “Are you going to seek the death penalty against someone and convict them and let them be sentenced to death without letting them know what the evidence is against them? No way. What prosecutor wants that?”
One of the biggest concerns of the administration is the possibility of evidence emerging that could lead to charges of war crimes against high-ranking officials. The president and others in the administration have argued that they are seeking changes in the law in order to protect soldiers and ordinary interrogators in the field against war crimes accusations.
But there are already clear guidelines — short of war crimes prosecutions — for dealing with soldiers and civilian interrogators who abuse prisoners. The Abu Ghraib prosecutions are a good example.
The people who would have to worry, if war crimes were found to have been committed, would be those at the top of the command structure who crafted policies that were illegal and ordered them carried out — or who turned a blind eye to atrocities.
“Those are the ones,” said Mr. Horton, “who are vulnerable.”
|
|
| | | 158 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 14:45
|
I was thinking of starting a thread on this stuff the other day, but didn't get around to it.
Having done some digging so I think I basically understand what's going on, I think I stand with McCain on the "alternative techniques" issue and with the Administration on the seeing evidence issue. (The proposal would let the accused's lawyer see the classified evidence.)
However my real interest is whether there aren't any people here who support the Administration position. There seem to be lots of them in the public at large. Keep in mind the Administration's claims:
-- these techniques aren't applied to detainees generally, just to handfuls of people who are known to be high up in Al Qaeda; -- these techniques have elicited information which has foiled plots which would have taken thousands of American lives (I expect that people may be skeptical of that claim, but that's what it is).
The remaining mystery to me is that the standard in the Administration's bill contains a standard that seems on the plain meaning of words to be tougher than the Geneva Convention standard. (cruel, inhuman or degrading). "Degrading" appears to be the easiest to meet standard of all those being thrown around. To take a trivial example of mistreatment, forcing a detainee to wear underwear around his head isn't cruel, an outrage against human dignity etc. but it is "degrading". The Administration's lawyers have some obscure reason for believing that the CID standard allows current CIA practices.
Toral
|
|
| | | 159 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 14:57
|
toral of coarse there are people who support them
|
|
| | | 160 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 15:28
|
However my real interest is whether there aren't any people here who support the Administration position
The position on what?
I think we can agree that the Geneva Convention is worded vaguely. But this doesn't mean it is a bad piece of legislation or that it needs clarification. Sometimes legislation is best left vague to let the particulars of the circumstances dictate what should be done (the "fair use" parts of our Copyright Law is like that).
The Administration, who have clearly broken the article often in the last 5 years no matter what standard one uses, seems to be loophole hunting.
|
|
| | | 161 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 15:30
|
The position that coercive interrogation techniques should be available for use against high-level Al-Qaeda detainees.
Toral
|
|
| | | 162 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 15:40
|
I don't think we can make that distinction (and I don't think the Administration would in any case). The critical factor as to whether torture would be an option would be the quality of the projected information held by the detainee. While we might expect that amount to increase as you go up the Al-Qaeda "hierarchy," the decentralized nature of the group means that virtually anyone might have the piece of information critical to stopping some future work of violence.
Like spying on US citizens, the Administration can easily make the argument that we don't know something until we know it, and that means bending the laws until we can determine if they went too far.
|
|
| | | 163 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 15:42
|
This position here.
A bloc of Republican senators, led by John McCain, John Warner, and Lindsey Graham, is determined to disable the intelligence-collecting capabilities of the United States while it is at war with a deadly foe against whom intelligence is the best weapon.
The trio wants to derail the Bush administration’s effort to preserve coercive interrogation methods. These methods — almost all of them falling well short of torture — have been proven to yield intelligence that saves American lives. In their absence, 9/11 would already have been reprised; if they are eliminated now, the likelihood of its recurrence will increase significantly.
At the heart of the controversy is the Supreme Court’s disastrous June decision in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld. Ostensibly, the case involved only military commissions, not interrogation. Nonetheless, by misconstruing the Geneva Conventions’ Common Article 3 (CA3) to apply to commission trials for unlawful enemy combatants, and by being coy about whether its reasoning was limited to CA3’s terms governing trials or embraced all of its terms, the Court opened a Pandora’s box.... We are not, and the administration is not, advocating torture. But there are, manifestly, methods of coercion that, though rougher than the Miranda standards of the criminal- and military-justice systems, fall short of torture. Such methods have already saved thousands of American lives, thanks to the intelligence gleaned from the CIA’s interrogations of top al Qaeda captives like 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. Those methods will be effectively outlawed if Congress does not act. President Bush could not have put the matter more directly than he did last week: If legislation resembling his proposal is not enacted, Congress will have killed the CIA interrogation program.
Toral
|
|
| | | 164 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:26
|
I'm sorry--I had to stop reading after that dreadful first sentence of the article. The senators are not simply trying to define "torture" but are determined to disable the intelligence-collecting capabilities? And the article essentially pulls out of its ass that torture has saved thousands of lives?
Only the weak, scared, or evil torture. What this Administration has done to America, in the name of its War on Terror, is simply awful. And no amount of self-justifying crap about an amorphous, evil, never-sleeping terrorist enemy being will change that.
America should stand for something better. It is too late to hope this Administration will.
|
|
| | | 165 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:28
|
And the article essentially pulls out of its ass that torture has saved thousands of lives?
You read beyond the first sentence!
Toral
|
|
| | | 166 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:33
|
The fact is, torture doesnt work. Yes, the detainee will spill his/her guts. Spewing forth whatever they BELIEVE, you want to hear. That the statements will have little if any resemblance to facts, is irrelevant to the torutred. They just know, by saying what you want, the torture stops. So they tell you what you want to hear.
Torture, has no place in the arsenal of the United States. None. It is impossible, for us to claim the high moral ground, if we condone such actions. Yet, it is imperative that we be able to claim such ground.
When I went through E&E training (Escape and Evasion), we were taught that if we were ever captured, then do everything we could to "hold our tongues", for 24 hours. After that, spill it and save yourself. After 24 hrs, the entire situation has changed anyway. Since there isnt one of these guys that we captured yesterday being subjected to the torture methods, whatever they can/will tell us, has little or no value. Like it or not, believe me or dont...I dont much care either way. Its the truth, and often times from what I've seen over the past 1/2 dz years, this administration has less than no use for the truth at all.
|
|
| | | 167 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:33
|
Skimmed. Different from reading.
:)
|
|
| | | 168 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:37
|
#164, PD (as usual)...right on! - walk
|
|
| | | 169 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:39
|
Only the weak, scared, or evil torture. but are we not the weak and the scared?
|
|
| | | 170 | bibA Sustainer
ID: 261028117 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:52
|
Toral -
Can you say you honestly believe that many, many lives would possibly be saved if authorities were able to use whatever tough investigative techniques, whether they fall within your particular definition of torture or not, with anyone that said authorities believe may be involved in homicides, gang warfare, terrorism, whatever? I would admit that if these methods were used, that in some cases, lives may be saved.
Can you honestly say you believe that whoever is given the power to wield these aggressive techniques, whether CIA, DIA, military, or independant contractors, would only use these methods against "high ranking terrorists"? Or, that the temptation would exist to use these powers against anyone who they felt may have useful information?
Can you honestly say you want to live in a society where your government has mandated for itself the right to use these methods against whoever they deem fit to be interrogated as roughly as THEY feel is within their power?
Would you say that you may feel certain measures are not torture, as long as these measures are not something you are experiencing?
|
|
| | | 171 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:54
|
Weak? Nope. Scared? By this Administration--yeah. But we're not the home of the free and the scared. Bravery means looking through things that cause fear with realistic vision, to do the right thing because it is the right thing. Which means not doing the wrong thing even when it seems the best way to respond to fear.
|
|
| | | 172 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 16:55
|
I mentioned in 158 that I personally don't support the Administration position.
Toral
|
|
| | | 173 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 17:03
|
pd I disagree i think we are both weak and scared and just like you said about those who use torture, like the school bully who is big and strong, but mentally weak.
since i do not believe we are 'free' i dont see why we would necessarily be 'brave' either.
|
|
| | | 174 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 17:10
|
Mentally, maybe you are exactly right, boikin. Take a look at this ad here. It is a political ad for John Sweeney (R-NY), who has been pro-war since day 1. The mother of the dead soldier believes that we should support this Congressman who believes we should be in Iraq because after her son was dead he said he'd get the soldiers more protection while they are there. The irony of this is almost stunning. But it reflects a certain disassociation with what is actually going on.
The ability of the Administration, and federal Republicans to so quickly and completely turn into those things they had recently (and in some cases continue to) ridicule is amazing to me. I think the Administration (and it's supporters in Congress) are failing on the very basic level of being good Republicans.
|
|
| | | 175 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 17:16
|
Republicans quit being good republicans long ago. It is probably why politcal parties are a bad thing just as Washington once warned.
|
|
| | | 176 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 17:19
|
It was only 12 years ago that Gingrich rode into his leadership position, boikin, forcing the deficit to the front burner and helping (with Clinton) to institute all sorts of changes, from the way projects are finances to wholesale changes in welfare.
|
|
| | | 177 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 17:25
|
PD you can make arguments like that all day the republicans where also the party of lincoln then became the party david dukes and inverse analogy for the democrats. parties are allways becoming what they claim to hate. Republicans becomeing wasters of money instead of fighters of big governement is just the latest in flip flops. parties do and will do what they do best and that is what ever they think will keep them in power.
|
|
| | | 178 | Perm Dude
ID: 55855188 Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 17:29
|
My point wasn't that it was in the past (of course it was!) but that it was only 12 years ago.
And for this coming election I think it can be a powerful argument for the Democrats to draw upon.
Unfortunately, Democrats are making the same mistake they did two years ago, and trying to show how much they aren't George W. Bush.
|
|
| | | 179 | sarge33rd
ID: 257222410 Tue, Sep 19, 2006, 14:45
|
Canadian was falsely accused, panel says
TORONTO, Sept. 18 - Canadian intelligence officials passed false warnings and bad information to American agents about a Muslim Canadian citizen, after which U.S. authorities secretly whisked him to Syria, where he was tortured, a judicial report found Monday.
The report, released in Ottawa, was the result of a 2 1/2-year inquiry that represented one of the first public investigations into mistakes made as part of the United States' "extraordinary rendition" program, which has secretly spirited suspects to foreign countries for interrogation by often brutal methods.
...
Coffin-sized dungeon Arar, now 36, was detained by U.S. authorities as he changed planes in New York on Sept. 26, 2002. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan -- where he never has been -- and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released, the Canadian inquiry commission found.
O'Connor concluded "categorically there is no evidence" that Arar did anything wrong or was a security threat.
Although the report centered on Canadian actions, the counsel for the commission, Paul Cavalluzzo, said the results show that the U.S. practice of renditions "ought to be reviewed."
How many innocent folks would you have us torture, in order to secure false confessions and bad intel?
|
|
| | | 180 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Tue, Sep 19, 2006, 15:28
|
These methods — almost all of them falling well short of torture — have been proven to yield intelligence that saves American lives. In their absence, 9/11 would already have been reprised; if they are eliminated now, the likelihood of its recurrence will increase significantly.
Prove it. This statement is beyond irresponsible without proof.
Watching Cheney on Tim Russert's show, he continued to justify the secret torture prisons by saying that they have generated intelligence that has saved American lives but gave not a single example. I believe that the Administration has polled the public and found that a question like:
"Do you support continuing a constitutionally valid program of intelligence gathering involving coercive techniques that has generated intelligence which has prevented the loss of American lives much like the attacks of 9/11?"
got decent results, giving the green light to spin the program as such and refusing to site any intelligence gathered for "security" reasons. At the same time, most of America is rightly upset that there thousands of people being held without charges around the world in American detention centers, 14,000 people held at one time or another, without access to attorneys, subjected to questioning that has started at coercive and sometimes moves to torturous and death in over 100 cases. History will not judge this program lightly. Let the Congressional hearings begin January, 2007.
|
|
| | | 181 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Tue, Sep 19, 2006, 16:10
|
Unfortunately, Democrats are making the same mistake they did two years ago, and trying to show how much they aren't George W. Bush.
The most correct statement i have heard in quite a while.
|
|
| | |
| | | 183 | Motley Crue Dude
ID: 439372011 Sun, Oct 01, 2006, 10:26
|
Irony: Foley's Hill leadership Foley, as chairman of the Missing and Exploited Children's Caucus, had introduced legislation in July to protect children from exploitation by adults over the Internet. He also sponsored other legislation designed to protect minors from abuse and neglect.
"We track library books better than we do sexual predators," Foley has said.
From this link: Foley e-mails an open secret in D.C.?
If they were trying to hide this from the public because of the elections, that's pretty crass, and downright stupid. Now they'll lose that seat for sure, I have to think. Apparently Foley's name will remain on the ballots, because they've already been printed. It's amazing that the Republicans and Democrats can't seem to effectively reign in the extracurricular activities of their own people. I marvel at stories like these time and again. These individuals must feel unbelievably powerful to think that they can get away with transgressions as severe as the one Foley is accused of. Lots of tracks to cover, and too many witnesses.
|
|
| | | 184 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 51627168 Sun, Oct 01, 2006, 10:31
|
In my opinion it is unfair to characterize the actions of Mark Foley as typical of the "direction of the Republican Party". The GOP is not to my knowledge headed in the direction of pedohpelia.
But the case raises issues in various political topics, discussed in this and other threads and in general.
The questions that need to be asked (relevant to this thread) are: who else knew and what was done about it?
SF Gate: GOP members have known of questionable email exchanges with minors for months Top House Republicans knew for months about e-mail traffic between Rep. Mark Foley and a former teenage page, but kept the matter secret and allowed Foley, R-Fla., to remain head of a congressional caucus on children's issues, Republican lawmakers said Saturday.
The page worked for Rep. Rodney Alexander, R-La. Among those who also became aware of the communication in the fall of 2005 between Foley and the 16-year-old were Rep. John Boehner, the majority leader, and Rep. Thomas Reynolds of New York, chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee. Reynolds said in a statement Saturday that he had also personally raised the issue with Speaker Dennis Hastert earlier this year. Hastert had previously said he was not aware until last week of inappropriate behavior by Foley.
"Despite the fact that I had not seen the e-mails in question and Mr. Alexander told me that the parents didn't want the matter pursued, I told the speaker of the conversation Mr. Alexander had with me," Reynolds said.
Republican insiders said Reynolds spoke out because he was angry that Hastert appeared willing to let him take the blame for the party leadership's silence about concerns raised last year regarding Foley's interactions with the teenager.
A House GOP leadership aide, who spoke to the Washington Post on condition of anonymity for fear of losing his job, said Reynolds realizes he has taken a shot at his top leader, but it was understandable.
"This is what happens when one member tries to throw another member under a bus," the aide told the Post.
In a chronology of the incident released later Saturday, the speaker's office said Hastert did not recall any such discussion and had no previous knowledge of the matter. "While the speaker does not explicitly recall this conversation, he has no reason to dispute Congressman Reynolds' recollection that he reported to him on the problem and its resolution," a statement from Hastert's office said.
The statement said senior staff members in the speaker's office first learned of the e-mail messages from Alexander's office in the fall of 2005 and took steps to investigate.
Aides to the speaker and other congressional Republican leaders said the messages brought to their attention -- described as "over friendly" -- were much less explicit than others that came to light after ABC News disclosed the first e-mail correspondence. In those messages, Foley asked about the well-being of the boy, a Monroe, La., resident, after Hurricane Katrina and requested a photograph.
Alexander's office also contacted staff members in Hastert's office for guidance on what to do. According to the speaker's account, his aides put Alexander's staff in contact with the clerk of the House, who oversees the page program. The clerk, who at the time was Jeff Trandahl, referred the matter to Rep. John Shimkus, R-Ill., chairman of the House Page Board, in late 2005, a spokesman for Shimkus said.
Trandahl and Shimkus confronted Foley, who assured them nothing inappropriate had occurred.
"Congressman Shimkus and the clerk made it clear that to avoid even the appearance of impropriety and at the request of the parents, Congressman Foley was to immediately cease any communication with the young man," the speaker's statement said.
On Saturday, Shimkus' spokesman, Steve Tomaszewski, said, "Obviously Foley lied about the other e-mails."
(some investigation -mith)
Carl Forti, a spokesman for Reynolds, said the congressman became aware of contact between Foley and the young page this past spring, when Alexander brought it to his attention. Forti said that Alexander had told Reynolds of an e-mail exchange between Foley and the page, but that he did not show Reynolds the e-mail messages and their contents. Despite claims that the initially reported correspondance were innocent in nature, one would think that if Alexander felt the issue was important enough to bring to Reynolds, and that Reynolds felt it necessary to bring it to Hastert...
By the way, after reading that article I immediately went to my preferred conservative-leaning news source, The Washington Times, for an alternate perspective on what might have been previously known by House Republicans - and anyone else, for that matter. Unfortunately, they apparently don't find that particular topic newsworthy.
Okay fine, The National Review. Nothing.
Uh, Human Events Online? Couldn't find anything.
Anyone find a right leaning news source that reports from a conservative view on what looks like a potential coverup that allowed a pedophile to continue to chair the Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children?
|
|
| | | 185 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sun, Oct 01, 2006, 11:03
|
In my opinion it is unfair to characterize the actions of Mark Foley as typical of the "direction of the Republican Party". The GOP is not to my knowledge headed in the direction of pedohpelia.
This is true, but it is their history (recently) of changing Ethics Rules to allow their own to remain in a power-seat. And various members of that party, have over the past 20 or so years, campaigned heavily on "family values". Either stating or inferring, that they hold the moral high ground vs the Dems when/where it pertains to the American "family".
That many Reps knew about this a year ago, and did nothing at all, is indicative of the "the direction of the Republican party". So in a nutshell, this incident alone is not an indication, but when coupled with recent history, it most certainly shows that their "train" as it were, is in severe need of being derailed.
|
|
| | | 186 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 51627168 Sun, Oct 01, 2006, 11:26
|
That many Reps knew about this a year ago, and did nothing at all, is indicative of the "the direction of the Republican party".
Thats obviously where I was going with the above post but lets temper that a bit and acknowledge that we don't know exactly what was known a year ago. It seems likely that a potential (to say the least) scandal was swept under the rug rather than dealt with to prevent the sexual exploitation of minors. But I'll refrain from defeinitive terms for now.
|
|
| | | 187 | Perm Dude
ID: 093516 Sun, Oct 01, 2006, 12:56
|
The questions that need to be asked (relevant to this thread) are: who else knew and what was done about it?
And that is why this issue is properly placed in this thread. For years Republicans have relaxed ethics rules so as not to investigate their own. And that relaxation of the rules is coming home to roost.
|
|
| | |
| | | 189 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 21:54
|
Frist with a totally different direction
QALAT, Afghanistan U.S. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said Monday that the Afghan guerrilla war can never be won militarily and called for efforts to bring the Taliban and their supporters into the Afghan government. The Tennessee Republican said he had learned from briefings that Taliban fighters were too numerous and had too much popular support to be defeated by military means.
Anyone see that one coming?
|
|
| | | 190 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 21:58
|
wow
|
|
| | | 191 | Perm Dude
ID: 49950211 Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 21:59
|
So we're giving up on the one area that the terrorists actually were, and staying in a civil war where the weren't?
|
|
| | | 192 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 22:13
|
Makes you wonder exactly what was dicussed last week between Bush, Musharraf and Karzai. I doubt Frist would be making that bold of a statement c inedependently.
|
|
| | | 193 | bibA Sustainer
ID: 261028117 Tue, Oct 03, 2006, 00:31
|
Personally, I find this attitude by Frist to be open minded and possibly a genuine attempt to do something positive in a difficult arena. (Were a democrat to make the same suggestion, he would be lambasted by the right, but that is another matter). The Taliban may have allowed al-Queda to operate within their borders, but they themselves were not terrorists, just religious fanatics. If there are sufficient numbers within the Afghan populace to support them, and they are willing, they should be allowed to participate in a democratic process.
Many call them terrorists currently, because they are fighting the occupation of their country by foreigners. The more the US is involved in maintaining a military presence in mid eastern countries, the more we will find armed insurgencies fighting against us. Not sure this makes them terrorists.
|
|
| | |
| | | 195 | Perm Dude
ID: 2191537 Tue, Oct 03, 2006, 12:25
|
Because it is only the pedophile-hiders that we can really trust...
|
|
| | | 196 | sarge33rd
ID: 257222410 Tue, Oct 03, 2006, 12:58
|
"If you listen closely to some of the leaders of the Democratic Party, it sounds like -- it sounds like -- they think the best way to protect the American people is, wait until we're attacked again,"
A) Strawman. B) Campaigning on fear again/still.
Right shrub. Better to let a party bent on shredding the Constitution, torturing suspects, detaining people w/o warrants, convicting w/o disclosing the evidence used against...
Yea...and the reason "dictatorship" doesnt apply to your administration is..........why exactly?
|
|
| | | 197 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 10:40
|
Invade Afghanistian, check; invade Iraq, check; kill tens of thousands, check; suffer thousands of casualties, check; plan and pay for victory parades, check; come up with plan to stop the fighting, prevent a civil war, bring order and peace to these countries... ah, the Democrats are the party of "cut & run".
Tucked away in fine print in the military spending bill for this past year was a lump sum of $20 million to pay for a celebration in the nation's capital "for commemoration of success" in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not surprisingly, the money was not spent.
"If the Bush administration had spent more time planning for the postwar occupation of Iraq, and less time planning 'mission accomplished' victory celebrations, America would be closer to finishing the job in Iraq,"
|
|
| | | 198 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 14:45
|
October 4, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist If I Had One Wish By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
There are now so many books out on the Bush policy in Iraq with variations of the word “fiasco” in the title or the text that bookstores are surely going to have to be redesigned to create shelf space for this war: “Welcome to Barnes & Noble: We have fiction and nonfiction on the main floor, poetry and mystery in the corner, children’s books upstairs and the ‘Bush Fiasco’ section across the entire basement.”
And the war isn’t even over yet.
If there is a theme common to all these books it is the word “incompetence.” Reading Bob Woodward’s “State of Denial,” about the completely dysfunctional manner in which the Bush national security team has conducted the Iraq war — the president reportedly had to order Don Rumsfeld to return Condi Rice’s phone calls — leaves you disgusted.
Which brings me to this November’s elections. New York Times columnists are not allowed to endorse candidates, but I checked the rulebook the other day, and there’s no rule against rooting for a general outcome. So here is my fervent wish: For the sake of the country, I really hope the Republicans lose the House and the Senate to the Democrats — by one seat in each chamber.
It is so important that the Republicans lose, because if the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rice team can get away with the grotesque incompetence they have exhibited in Iraq — a war that was not preordained to fail, but was never given a proper chance to succeed — it makes this country look like a banana republic.
If on the morning after the election these people come out smirking that their efforts to scare the public into voting again for their candidates worked, and therefore they can just stay the present course in Iraq — which is not working — it will send a terrible message about our democracy. It will tell us that the country is so divided, and so many districts gerrymandered in favor of Republicans, that performance does not matter any longer. Unless you are caught sending e-mail to a Congressional page soliciting sex, your seat is safe.
If we have any chance of salvaging Iraq and solving some of our real problems at home, it will only be as a result of some electoral shock treatment delivered to a Republican Party that has failed to demand even the most minimal competence and planning from its leaders.
But the reason I want the Democrats to win by only one seat in both the House and the Senate is because I want them to have such a slim margin that they will have to govern from the center — to look for bipartisan fixes to the country’s major issues, which is the only way they can be addressed.
“We’re not just in a ‘state of denial’ about Iraq,” remarked Michael Mandelbaum, the author of “The Case for Goliath.” We’re also in a state of denial about the deficit, health care, energy and Social Security.”
Maybe the deficit can wait. But there is something immoral about kicking Iraq down the road for someone else to deal with it. Because the burden of Iraq falls — unfairly and harshly — on one small segment of our population: U.S. military troops and their families.
Yes, Mr. Bush’s original vision of a unified democratic Iraq was compelling and important. But it’s not happening. It’s become the “second choice” of too many Iraqis. Too many Kurds just want their own state; too many Shiites just want their own pro-Iranian zone in the south; too many Sunnis want the old order. Real democracy is too many Iraqis’ second choice. If that doesn’t change, we can’t go on having our first-choice kids dying for Iraqis’ second choice. Our top military people know things aren’t working. But they also know the Bush team won’t order a Plan B, because it would be construed as an admission of failure and used in domestic politics. So we are staying a failing course.
You know how they say that after a while people start to look like their pets? Well, we’re starting to look like Iraq — a bunch of warring political tribes incapable of acting in common for the greater good.
So here’s hoping the Republicans lose the House and the Senate and realize that if they don’t start acting responsibly they’ll suffer an even worse defeat in ’08. And here’s hoping the Democrats win by just enough to love being back in power, but by such a slim margin they know that if they don’t produce something by ’08, they’ll get defeated again.
Without restoring a legislative center that can tackle hard issues and demand sacrifices, we’re just going to keep kicking problems down the road — from Iraq to Social Security — until the road reaches a cliff and we plunge over the side.
|
|
| | | 199 | sarge33rd
ID: 257222410 Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 14:48
|
What a wonderful and brilliant piece. I can only endorse the writers hope that governing starts coming from closer to center, than has been the case over the past several years. I think only then, do things take on more of a national appeal, and less of a "what does MY district want most?".
|
|
| | | 200 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 14:51
|
October 4, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist Don’t Pass the Salted Peanuts, Henry By MAUREEN DOWD
Tom Lehrer said that political satire was rendered obsolete when Henry Kissinger won a Nobel Peace Prize for prolonging the Vietnam War.
But even the inventive Lehrer could never have imagined that Dr. Strangelove would get a second chance to contribute to misleading the public about a military catastrophe in a misunderstood land — a do-over in scarring the American psyche and reputation in profound ways.
Yet, as Bob Woodward reveals in “State of Denial,” the sequel to “Bush is a Genius,” Mr. Kissinger has been one of the few trusted outside advisers that W. has listened to on Iraq. The administration has shaped its policy to hew to the 83-year-old Unwise Man’s belief that the only way to beat an insurgency is to stick it out, no matter how many American kids and foreign civilians die.
Especially if elections are coming up. As the historian Robert Dallek, who is writing a book on Nixon and Kissinger, notes, “Kissinger was complicit in using foreign policy to try to save Nixon during Watergate.”
Bob Haldeman wrote in his diary on Dec. 15, 1970, using “K” for Kissinger and “P” for President Nixon: “K came in and the discussion covered some of the general thinking about Vietnam and the P’s big peace plan for next year, which K later told me he does not favor. He thinks that any pullout next year would be a serious mistake because the adverse reaction to it could set in well before the ’72 elections. He favors, instead, a continued winding down and then a pullout right at the fall of ’72 so that if any bad results follow they will be too late to affect the election. It seems to make sense.”
Thirty-five years later, Mr. Kissinger, the consummate fawner, was once more able to sway a president with faux deference. Dr. K encouraged W. to play the tough guy on the war, even though he’d never gone to war himself.
In September 2005, Mr. Woodward writes, W.’s head speechwriter, Mike Gerson, visited Mr. Kissinger and received a lecture declaring that the only exit strategy for Iraq was victory and a copy of the diplomat’s “salted peanut memo” from 1969, warning against resisting pressure to withdraw troops from Vietnam: “Withdrawal of U.S. troops will become like salted peanuts to the American public; the more U.S. troops come home, the more will be demanded.”
It’s the kind of logic that makes Dr. K such a valuable counselor to a president who has already declared privately that his midterm election strategy is to tar the Democrats this way: “Surrender and taxes.”
The shrink-wrapped president did not consult his own father before going to war against the same dictator. And, moving from Dr. Strangelove to Dr. Freud, two of W.’s top war counselors — Rummy and Henry the K — are men who did not bother to conceal their contempt for Bush senior as a naïve lightweight.
As Mr. Woodward notes, part of Rummy’s allure for W. was the fact that Poppy Bush considered him an arrogant, Machiavellian sort who could get you in deep doo-doo. “It was a chance,” Mr. Woodward says, “to prove his father wrong.” Or right.
It’s been clear for years that Dick Cheney and Rummy have been using the Bush presidency like an elaborate vanity production to replay Watergate and Vietnam, and to try to reverse things that bothered them during prior stints in the Nixon and Ford administrations.
As Mr. Cheney told his pal Rummy when W. gave him a second crack — a quarter-century later — at the defense chief job: “Get it right this time.”
The vice president has been diabolically successful in exploiting 9/11 to restore the Imperial Presidency to where it was before Congress and the public became such Nosy Parkers after Watergate. Mr. Cheney and Rummy have been less successful in their attempt to exorcise the post-Vietnam American skittishness about using force; their abysmal misadventure in Iraq has only reinforced it.
Mr. Kissinger’s reasoning for favoring war in Iraq had none of the idealistic gloss about democracy that the president came up with later. Like Mr. Cheney, he thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq not because it was strong, but because it was weak. “We need to humiliate” radical Islam, he told Mr. Gerson, and send the message that “we’re not going to live in this world that they want for us.”
Half a century of foreign affairs experience, and he still doesn’t understand that humiliating young Arab men — and occupying Muslim land — just radicalizes them? We’re expanding terror at a cost of about $6 billion a month.
|
|
| | | 201 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 14:53
|
Yeah, sarge33rd. I think Thomas Friedman most often "gets it right." I love his Op-Eds. The second one I posted, by Maureen Dowd, I think tends to be more love/hate, but I am of a similar mindset personally. Friedman though, he has the ideas.
- walk
|
|
| | | 202 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 15:24
|
re: post 197.
War plans: Congress OKs $20 mil for victory parties
dueling quotes:
1. Carolyn Weyforth, spokeswoman for Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tennessee, said, "Republicans are confident we will be victorious in the ongoing war in terror, and we look forward to a time when those funds can be used to honor the men and women who have risked and given their lives."
2. "If the Bush administration is planning victory celebrations, Americans deserve to know what their plan is to get us to a victory in Iraq," said Rebecca Kirszner, spokeswoman for Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada.
|
|
| | | 203 | sarge33rd
ID: 257222410 Wed, Oct 04, 2006, 15:30
|
according to shrub, that will be the task of a following administration, as this conflict will last beyond hids Presidency.
|
|
| | | 204 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Sun, Oct 08, 2006, 02:45
|
Where are the Republicans headed now? Back into the closet...
|
|
| | | 205 | Baldwin
ID: 36954422 Sun, Oct 08, 2006, 06:19
|
I can remember way back when we had a long period of Republican presidents and Democrat congresses, the wonks would say the American people [on a visceral subconscious level] had decided that divided government was the only way to contain runaway spending. Those wonks are looking pretty smart and I think Republicans have sold out the Reagan revolution and bought themselves some more divided government.
|
|
| | | 206 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Thu, Oct 12, 2006, 08:06
|
This story really isn't an indictment of the direction of the Republican Party per se, more like business as usual in a dysfuctional government.
Novak - Pork Rukes
WASHINGTON -- Staring into the abyss of minority status in Congress, Republicans signaled dedication to pork barrel spending before recessing for midterm election campaigning. Behind closed doors, the GOP's King of Pork dressed down the party's leading foe of earmarks. In the open, the last bill passed before the election was filled with carefully hidden pork.
In a caucus of Republican senators, 82-year-old, six-term Sen. Ted Stevens charged that freshman Sen. Tom Coburn's anti-pork crusade hurts the party. Stevens then removed from the final version of the Defense Department appropriations bill Coburn's "report card" requiring the Pentagon to grade earmarks. The House passed, 394 to 22, the bill, stripped of this reform and containing some 2,800 earmarks worth $11 billion. That made a mockery of a "transparency" rule passed by the House earlier this year, supposedly intended to discourage earmarks.
|
|
| | | 207 | Perm Dude
ID: 109331013 Thu, Oct 12, 2006, 10:03
|
Stevens has hated Coburn ever since the Bridge to Nowhere, which Coburn helped publicize. I don't like a lot of what Coburn is about, but at least he's trying to give some transparency to the process.
|
|
| | |
| | | 209 | Tree, at folks...
ID: 148422321 Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 18:42
|
FBI probing Rep. Weldon, his daughter
man, those democrats have been holding on to a LOT of things for just the right time, eh?
|
|
| | | 210 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 00:35
|
In Final Weeks, G.O.P. Focuses on Best Bets
And those are becoming fewer and farther in between.
Senior Republican leaders have concluded that Senator Mike DeWine of Ohio, a pivotal state in this year’s fierce midterm election battles, is likely to be heading for defeat and are moving to reduce financial support for his race and divert party money to other embattled Republican senators, party officials said.
Normally, a party would be averse to scaling back its help for a senator in a state with as many as five competitive Congressional races also on the ballot. But in this case, Ohio Republicans said, Mr. DeWine and Republican Congressional candidates face the added problem of being dragged down this November by the party’s candidate for governor, J. Kenneth Blackwell, who polls show is facing a double-digit loss to the Democrat, Representative Ted Strickland.
Oh, so sad that the cheating a$$hole Blackwell, the clown behind the eighty-pound-stock paper rule, the man with evil intent sent plenty of voting machines to the suburbs and far too few to college campuses and inner city precincts, the partisan party hack who PD wouldn't trust as far as he could throw him (post 54) is going to lose by A LOT. Good Riddance.
I saw Clair McCaskill and Jim "No Known" Talent on Meet the Press last week and if Missourians had any common sense, McCaskill will bury the incumbent, but anything is possible from a state that elected John Ashcroft [shudder].
I don't know much about James Webb, Democratic challenger from VA, but he has got to be better than the avowed racist George Allen. George has a long history of white suppremist remarks and actions. Don't believe me, well YouTube has come to answer your doubts, here as George points out the "macaca", staffer of Webb, filming Allen's campaign speeches. "Welcome to America" indeed. Even though Allen has outraised Webb ten-to-one, they are in a dead heat. Too bad that Blackwell can't run Virginia's elections this time around.
Hey, Toral...
Are you going to make your bi-annual Election Day predictions this year, or is it just too depressing?
|
|
| | |
| | | 212 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 11:28
|
Yeah, I read that NY Times article this a.m. about the Republicans "circling the wagons" to put their funds and strategy behind those specific senatorial and cogressional races they truly believe they can win. It's gonna be interesting.
- walk
|
|
| | | 213 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 00:53
|
Poll finds Ohio voters ready to turn to Democrats. State's residents see nation on wrong track, and they blame GOP
As goes Ohio, so goes the nation.
The Democratic candidates for governor and Senate hold commanding, double-digit leads over their Republican opponents in the poll, and respondents said they intended to vote for the Democratic candidate for the House in their district by 50 percent to 32 percent. In November 2004, 76 percent of white evangelical Christians in Ohio voted for Bush. When asked in this poll whether they approved or disapproved of the job Bush is doing as president, 49 percent approved while 45 percent disapproved.
|
|
| | | 214 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 13:33
|
October 18, 2006 Op-Ed Contributor No Spoils for the Victors By BRUCE BARTLETT GREAT FALLS, Va.
EVEN before the Mark Foley scandal broke, Democrats’ chances of getting control of the House of Representatives were pretty good. Now, with the incompetence of the Republican leadership’s handling of that affair, the odds of Democratic control are looking very good indeed.
With liberals like New York’s Charlie Rangel in line to head important House committees like the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee, some investors are starting to worry about tax increases on the rich and business bashing-legislation. Needless to say, Republicans are doing what they can to stoke such fears.
As a Republican, I have a message for those fearful of Democratic control: don’t worry. Nothing dreadful is going to happen. Liberals have much less to gain than they believe.
I speak with some knowledge. In 1994, after Republicans took control of Congress, my fellow conservatives and I met to plan a legislative agenda. My colleagues were ecstatic. In one fell swoop we were going to do all the things that Democratic control of Congress had effectively blocked since 1954, when the last Republican Congress was defeated.
I didn’t make myself very popular by reminding people that Bill Clinton was still going to be president for at least another two years. How were we going to get these measures enacted into law over his all-but-certain veto? Flush with victory and convinced that they had a mandate from the American people to pass a conservative legislative agenda, my friends simply dismissed my concerns as defeatist.
Well, Cassandra wasn’t very popular, either, but she was right, and so was I. Within a year, the conservative revolution was all but over. When Republicans forced a showdown with Mr. Clinton over the budget, they ended up blinking. After that, Republicans in Congress lost their reformist zeal and settled into playing the political game pretty much the same way the Democrats had for the previous 40 years: using federal money to buy votes to hold on to power any way possible.
My Democratic friends no doubt feel the way we Republicans did in those heady days of 1994 before political reality came knocking. Many probably think they will finally get the truth about what the White House knew about Iraq before the invasion. They may think they can use the power of the purse to force a withdrawal. Some may even imagine that articles of impeachment can be brought against President Bush, while others plan to enact national health insurance and other pet liberal schemes.
To all this I say: Ain’t gonna happen. For starters, President Bush will still occupy the White House for the next two years. And although his veto pen may have been misplaced for most of the last six years, he found it again this summer.
For another thing, Democrats are unlikely to get more than a very thin majority in the House. If they get the Senate as well, it will not be with more than a one-vote margin. Consequently, effective control will be in the hands of moderates who often work with Republicans on specific issues. In a delicious bit of irony, Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, lately excoriated by the liberal wing of the Democratic Party, may end up holding the balance of power in the Senate.
As for impeachment and cutting money for Iraq, such actions would be politically insane and the Democratic leadership knows it. They will make the White House pay a price for Iraq, but will ensure that they don’t get blamed for any debacle resulting from failure to provide adequate money for our troops.
Democrats may have more success using Congressional committees to investigate accusations of wrongdoing by the Bush administration, but that will be much harder than they think. The Republicans cut thousands of committee staff positions when they took control, and it will take considerable time to find the money and staff to do any serious investigating.
Also, the Bush White House can simply use all the stalling techniques that the Clinton White House perfected to frustrate Congressional investigations by Republicans. The only thing left to worry about is expiration of the Bush tax cuts, which Democrats will certainly not want to extend. But most of them don’t expire until 2010, so there is no urgency. Anyway, there is no certainty that continued Republican control of Congress would assure extension of the tax cuts. If party control were all that mattered, they would have been extended already.
In short, there is really no reason for conservatives, businessmen or investors to worry particularly about a Democratic victory in November. Congress will be on automatic pilot for the next two years regardless of which party is in control.
Bruce Bartlett, an official under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush, is the author of “Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy.”
|
|
| | |
| | | 216 | Tree
ID: 99351817 Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 22:07
|
Would a couple years wandering in the wilderness be a good thing?
we already know the answer to that. we have the entire Bush presidency as a reference point, so the answer would be no.
|
|
| | |
| | | 218 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Thu, Oct 19, 2006, 09:18
|
The Los Angeles Times and The Orange County Register both reported Thursday that the investigation appeared to be focused on the campaign of Tan D. Nguyen, a Republican challenger to Democratic U.S. Rep. Loretta Sanchez (news, bio, voting record).
The letter, written in Spanish, tells recipients: "You are advised that if your residence in this country is illegal or you are an immigrant, voting in a federal election is a crime that could result in jail time."
|
|
| | |
| | | 220 | Perm Dude
ID: 58925208 Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 10:33
|
I'd read about that ad a bit ago. Dr. King was very clearly non-partisan--he felt his cause was far beyond any political party, and he welcomed members of all races and parties into his cause.
|
|
| | | 221 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Tue, Oct 24, 2006, 07:53
|
Washington Times Senate Republicans with enormous campaign war chests are refusing to transfer significant amounts of money to help fellow Republicans who are cash-strapped and face defeat in the final weeks of the campaign. The stinginess alarms some of the Republican Party's top campaign strategists, especially because it is in such stark contrast to the millions of dollars that Democrats have transferred to their candidates in need. Control of the Senate will come down to a half-dozen close races next month, and both sides agree that money will likely determine the outcome of each. The Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (DSCC) has nearly twice as much money on hand as the National Republican Senatorial Committee (NRSC) for that final sprint to Election Day. According to the latest figures available, the DSCC has $23 million and the NRSC has $12 million. Much of that difference stems from the disparity in late giving from sitting senators. "Time is running out," one senior Republican aide said. "People will not want to look back and wonder what more could have been done. That would be a real shame." Ed Morrissey@Captain's Quarters It's difficult to understand the reluctance. If the Democrats win control of the chamber, these Republicans will lose committtee chairs and see themselves marginalized. It seems to be in their personal interest to do whatever is necessary to get resources to Republican candidates to help them win, let alone in their policy interests.
However, some Republican Senators do not agree. Richard Shelby has over $11 million in his coffers for his re-election bid in 2010, but Shelby has only transferred $15,000. He can't be worried about a challenge to his seat four years from now -- he won his last election with 68% of the vote, and Alabama hardly seems to be turning purple. Kay Bailey Hutchinson has $9.5 million and leads all her proposed challengers by 20 points, but all she's transferred is $115,000. Her spokesman, however, says she's donated more than $1.5 million through her PAC.
In contrast, Democratic Senators have shown more support for their party. Hillary Clinton has transferred more than $2 million from her own re-election campain this year to the DSCC. Ted Kennedy, Dianne Feinstein, Dick Durbin, and John Kerry -- who got pilloried for hanging onto $15 million from his presidential campaign in 2004 -- have all sent more than a million dollars to the committee. Apparently, these Senators understand the stakes a little better than their counterparts across the aisle, and they have put their party in position to conduct a last-minute ad blitz to lift their candidates in tight races.
Time is running out. If the Republicans in the Senate want to hang onto their majority, they need to start investing in their candidates.
|
|
| | | 222 | Perm Dude
ID: 19948247 Tue, Oct 24, 2006, 11:03
|
The same kind of debate is going on with Democrats as well. John Kerry, for example, has a large amount of cash on hand, though he's raised millions in appearances and other fundraisers for candidates and seems to be a tireless campaigner on behalf of scores of Dems across the country.
I suspect that the "October Surprise" that some keep predicting won't be some kind of nuclear political device, directed by Rove with the maximum political (and diabolical) effectiveness. It'll be that the Republican ideas have no real meat to them, and the emperor has no clothes.
|
|
| | |
| | | 224 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Wed, Oct 25, 2006, 09:39
|
Here's more absurd non-news from NewsMax. Olliver North warns of Daniel Ortega
My favorite line:
North is known for testifying before Congress that he was unable to recall the covert arming of the Contra guerrilla forces.
More from Ollie:
Visiting a memorial for fallen Contras, North said he hoped Nicaragua doesn't follow the lead of Bolivia and Ecuador, both of which had elections he said were influenced by Venezuelan government of leftist President Hugo Chavez.
He said Nicaragua had suffered enough from the influence of outsiders.
But , of course North isn't an outsider, is he?
North recently wrote a newspaper column arguing that State Department officials have erred in criticizing the ruling party because of its leader, Arnoldo Aleman, who has been convicted of corruption charges. He argued that the party has the best chance to keep Ortega from the presidency.
Maybe Ollie can't recall writing that column, because it sure sounds like an attempt to influence from an outsider.
|
|
| | | 225 | Perm Dude
ID: 32936258 Wed, Oct 25, 2006, 10:38
|
re 223: Watching the news yesterday, I'd heard that Limbaugh actually backed away from the "he's acting" stance after several callers to his show talked about the disease.
|
|
| | | 226 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Wed, Oct 25, 2006, 10:41
|
Hey George, the amount of things you "don't get" is bigger than Texas and Rumsfeld's ego combined.
|
|
| | | 227 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Oct 25, 2006, 10:51
|
Hey George, the amount of things you "don't get" is bigger than Texas and Rumsfeld's ego combined.
I have to take exception to that comment Zen. Rumsfelds ego, is beyond measure. Infinity only approximates it.
|
|
| | | 228 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 13:34
|
and, Rick Santorum officially loses his mind.
this reminds me of the time i hung out at SZ's place, and he said to me "Tree, you seem like an otherwise intelligent guy. what's with this whole wrestling thing you're into..."
btw, in case anyone is even remotely interested, the four guys in the background are legit professional wrestlers Shirley Doe, Jon Bolen, Super Hentai, and Sterling James Keenan.
|
|
| | | 229 | Perm Dude
ID: 37955267 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 13:38
|
"legit professional wrestlers" - oxymoron?
Santorum talking about working with Democrats? He's desperate, all right. He must realize by now that only Democrats are going to be going to the polls on November 7th.
|
|
| | | 230 | KM
ID: 319311512 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 13:55
|
Lol, sounds like an oxymoron, but it's basically acting + football. Watch Hogan Knows Best sometime. All he does is go to the chiropractor.
|
|
| | | 231 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 14:08
|
"legit professional wrestlers" - oxymoron?
trainer wrestlers, as opposed to actors portraying them.
it's basically acting + football.
um. no.
Santorum talking about working with Democrats? He's desperate, all right.
the best part of the video is where he says "i even worked with Hilary Clinton..." and the wrestlers in the background STOP as if to go "huh!?!!"
|
|
| | | 232 | KM
ID: 319311512 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 14:53
|
Um, yes. Everything is scripted, they are actors. They still have to throw each other around, per the script, so they get banged up like any contact professional athlete would.
|
|
| | | 233 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 15:45
|
Um, yes. Everything is scripted, they are actors. They still have to throw each other around, per the script, so they get banged up like any contact professional athlete would.
trust me, everything is not scripted. the winner/loser is scripted out ahead of time, and often, the "finish" is planned.
other moves are practices and rehearsed, but if you believe that every second of the match is scripted ahead of time, you don't know what you're talking about.
as for getting banged up, i think wrestlers get banged up more than most professional athletes.
|
|
| | | 234 | Perm Dude
ID: 37955267 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 15:56
|
Parts of it are scripted, winners are (and, as Tree points out, the finish usually is--that's how you get the winner, after all).
But most of it is like dancing. The good dancers (like wrestlers) make seemless moves and changes based upon moods and changes with themselves and their partners, staying in-character the whole time.
It doesn't make it a sport, IMO. But it certainly isn't easy.
|
|
| | | 235 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 15:57
|
Speaking as someone who has actually been in the ring during a (then)WWF world championship bout, it is amazing to me that these guys don't injure themselves and each other more often than they do, given their size and strength.
However, the wrestlers that were involved in the matches that I announced were mostly young studs, even "Macho Man" Randy Savage in 1990.
Watching an aging Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair in their 50s still attempting to choreograph a believable match adds fuel to "fake" sport claims.
|
|
| | | 236 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 16:18
|
I think the biggest thing most pro wrestling detractors can't get passed is that much "believability" is willingly sacrificed for simple showmanship. Really, if the contest was legitimate, why in the world would anyone ever backflip from a top rope to land on and hurt an incapacitated opponent in favor of something much more simple and brutal and more quickly delivered?
Among numerous other things, pro wrestling is as much a display of advanced athleticism and physicality (similar to watching gymnastics or weightlifting) as it is a fight.
|
|
| | | 237 | Tree
ID: 109122615 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 17:30
|
and, as Tree points out, the finish usually is--that's how you get the winner, after all
well, what i meant by the finish is, the literall finish. not who wins, but HOW they win. different finishes can be used for different purposes, be it to make one guy look CLEARLY better than the other guy, be it a cheap victory to show one guy as the bad guy, or whatever.
However, the wrestlers that were involved in the matches that I announced were mostly young studs, even "Macho Man" Randy Savage in 1990.
in 1990, Randy Savage was already pushing 40. he was no young stud. but that's how damned good he was in his prime. heck, in his early 20s, Savage was playing AAA ball while moonlighting as a pro wrestler, under a mask, since his contract forbade things like professional wrestling.
Savage's feud with Jerry Lawler in 1984-85 is one of the greatest in the history of the sport, and it culminated with Savage losing a "Loser Leaves Town" match, which, of course, was needed because he had signed a WWF contract. :o)
now THIS is old Randy Savage... from 1980 - with his tag partner, a very young Bob Orton, talking about how they do *everything* together.
and this one, where he talks about an ant trying to rape an elephant and getting so intense he accidently breaks a chair he's sitting on...
but *THIS* is the Macho Man promo of all Macho Man promos. one of my all time favorite promos as a VERY bearded Macho Man, mouth full of tobacco, cries, mumbles, and just completely insanes his way through this derange promo that i am certain was an influence for Mick Foley.
|
|
| | | 238 | KM
ID: 359462113 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 19:26
|
Touchy... so what if every single moment isn't scripted? Improvisation (this time physical) is still acting. Is he actually trying to clock him hard in the skull? Or is he trying to get as close as possible, and hit his other hand in the process to make a loud noise? The is trying to piledrive that guy? Or is he trying to get his opponents head as close as possible? They literally stand there pretending be dazed and let other wrestlers contort them in impressive ways. I think it's fun, it's hilarious, but it's basically a sitcom. Granted you have to have a very impressive physical skill set, so I'm not demeaning their talent in anyway.
|
|
| | | 239 | Tree
ID: 59302619 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 22:10
|
Is he actually trying to clock him hard in the skull? Or is he trying to get as close as possible, and hit his other hand in the process to make a loud noise? The is trying to piledrive that guy? Or is he trying to get his opponents head as close as possible? They literally stand there pretending be dazed and let other wrestlers contort them in impressive ways.
i suppose that's my point. this isn't the 80s style WWE anymore.
i'll show you some pictures of Roderick Strong's eye after Low Ki kicked him, or of Bryan Danielson's or Dixie's chest after Strong chopped their chests into ground beef.
i'm touchy about it, because a lot of these guys are my friends, and they definitely get their asses kicked legit. there is certainly some of the stuff you mentioned going on, but wrestling is a lot more physical and there is a lot more contact than their used to be.
|
|
| | | 240 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Thu, Oct 26, 2006, 23:38
|
Sum Serious Stratergy goin' on right 'bout here.
|
|
| | | 241 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 10:07
|
dont have Woodwards book in front of me atm (I'm at work, its at home), but I was reading of a conversation between Armitage and Powell shortly after Rice took over as Sec of State. The two were lamenting how this administration simply doesnt "get" diplomacy. Armitage made the comment (quoted in the book):
"Yea. To these guys diplomacy is; 'Look fu*ker. You do what we want.'"
Sorta says it all really.
|
|
| | | 242 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 10:46
|
just to follow up on the odd Santorum ad. one of the wrestlers - Shirley Doe - who is something like a 13 year veteran of the sport - posts semi-regularly on one of the other message boards i frequent, and this was his thoughts when someone accused him of selling out.
Yeah, well - I needed stunt work to add to my resume. I got paid pretty well to be a stunt coordinator on that shoot - and if me trying to feed my family is sleeze, then f*ck it. I get paid money to wrestle people. I'm not some paragon of virtue. That said, I was supposed to be pinning Bolen in a shot, and Santorum asked me if I would get closer to him, and I said, I thought you were against man on man action. So see, I got my digs in, and took the guy for money and got 5 of my really good friends a good payday, as well as exposure for the promotion that I work for - and got our new building a really good payday as well.
Also, satanists don't f*ck dogs. I'd kill a human before any animal and I stand behind that. I also think that aliens run our government and all of politics is a big show put on for the amusement of the Majestic-12's human sheep, because aliens came down and showed Truman holograms of the crucifixition and he freaked out and Bob Lazer and God and the Bible.
|
|
| | | 243 | Perm Dude
ID: 37955267 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 11:04
|
Also, satanists don't f*ck dogs. I'd kill a human before any animal...
Hmmmm.
|
|
| | | 244 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 11:13
|
yea, that was in response to the conflict between Santorum's christianity and Doe's satanism...
and FWIW, i share the same sentiment regarding dogs and people.
|
|
| | | 245 | biliruben
ID: 535193010 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 11:15
|
Santorum has a dog fetish?
|
|
| | | 246 | Perm Dude
ID: 37955267 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 11:17
|
Ah--I figured I was missing an exchange there. Santorum never talks about killing animals. Just about equating man on man sex to man on dog sex.
Reminds me of a comedian (whose name I can't recall), who sometimes opened his show with:
"I think my cat is gay"
pause
"'Cause now, when I f*ck him, he kinda relaxes a little..."
|
|
| | | 247 | biliruben
ID: 535193010 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 11:26
|
|
|
| | |
| | | 249 | bibA Sustainer
ID: 261028117 Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 21:22
|
Classic
|
|
| | | 250 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Oct 28, 2006, 11:14
|
brilliant...absolutely, brilliant.
|
|
| | | 251 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Oct 28, 2006, 17:18
|
RE 248...ya know,
If you were to substitute the name RUSH LIMBAUGH and use ANN COULTER instead, the article loses virtually none of its inherent accuracy!
|
|
| | | 252 | Baldwin
ID: 189102715 Sun, Oct 29, 2006, 06:32
|
I leave for a few days and the place is a mess. You guys are actually proud of your posts?
|
|
| | | 253 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Tue, Oct 31, 2006, 10:57
|
The "direction" of Rick Santorum

CASEY: So, Rick, which way are you headed on November 9th, back to Western Pennsylvania or Northern Virginia?
SANTORUM: Western PA!?!?! Ugh, that hellhole? My family and I have gotten fat, I mean Michelin Man fat, off of the corporate teat. I'm headed right over there, just across the Potomac. I'll be lobbying you for corporate tax breaks as soon as January with a huge expense account.
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 257 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 09:59
|
It just isn't the America I know and love. Somebody needs to take a stand against those that would bully and intimidate their fellow citizens. That stand begins right here, right now.
Absolutely beautiful.
|
|
| | | 258 | biliruben
ID: 535193010 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 11:06
|
|
|
| | | 259 | Perm Dude
ID: 28103319 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 16:45
|
|
|
| | | 260 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 20:20
|
I once saw a realtor who I know had sold a personal friend a home with termites, advertising his trustworthiness.
After that one I realized that whatever people are advertising just might be covering their biggest liability. I have subsequently often found this to be true.
These ads come from people who thot the presidential kitchen and sink were for jerking off and groping the help, who left dropping silverware out their suitcases, who vandalized the whitehouse on their way out as an insult to Bush.
They hope after 8 years we forget.
Whatever Bush's deficits, at least he keeps his shirt on in the Oval Office. Suit and tie even.
|
|
| | | 261 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 20:27
|
and you manage to find that laudible, even in the face of getting over 3000 Americans killed, over 30,000 seriously wounded, the debt run so gddmn high it is virtually unmanageable, contracts handed out to companies with no experience, etc etc etc?
You're blind-ass holier than thou attitude is entirely w/o justification boldy. Utterly.
|
|
| | | 262 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 21:12
|
Give me a philanderer over a lying mass murderer every day.
|
|
| | | 263 | Tree
ID: 301047118 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 22:15
|
Whatever Bush's deficits, at least he keeps his shirt on in the Oval Office. Suit and tie even.
you are a goddamned idiot. a fool to the highest degree.
i would rather my president bang a 100 women, right there in the oval office on the freakin' presidential desk, his bare ass up in the air, then have him lead our nation into a war we have no business being in, being responsible for the deaths of thousands of americans and making my nation a very frightening and unsafe place to live.
if you honestly believe that the fidelity of a president is more important than the lives of thousands of americans and the safety of this nation, then you are a sick, sick, man.
|
|
| | | 264 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 22:20
|
Exactly what was the difference between the Serbia war and Iraq war again?
[besides the terrorist training camp in Iraq and the regular payments made to terrorists by Iraq]
|
|
| | | 265 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 22:26
|
What always amazed me was we were led to believe Serbia was running concentration camps but then there wasn't a single picture of all those released prisoners or the camps.
Just maybe we were lied to a teeny bit to get the USA into another UN resolution related 'nation building' war?
|
|
| | |
| | | 267 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 22:43
|
Exactly what was the difference between the Serbia war and Iraq war again?
The relationships between the stated objectives and the actual objectives.
The relative honesty of the leaderships' stated reasons for military action.
The sizes and impacts of the commitments.
The level of national and international support.
The number of civilians and coalition casualties.
|
|
| | | 268 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 22:45
|
Exactly what was the difference between the Serbia war and Iraq war again?
The difference? Roughly 33,000 dead and wounded US soldiers.
What always amazed me was we were led to believe Serbia was running concentration camps but then there wasn't a single picture of all those released prisoners or the camps.
And where are your questions re those WMDs we went to war over? Oh wait...this was a Reublican lie, so its OK. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
|
|
| | | 269 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 01, 2006, 22:46
|
The difference is we went there in the name of stopping genocide. Genocide was occurring. We went to Iraq in the name of WMD. There weren't any. Oh wait, n/m, Bush clarified that. When he said WMD, he MEANT we went there to liberate the Iraqi people and prevent Iraq from being a haven for terrorists. Us silly liberals always trying to twist his words.
|
|
| | |
| | | 271 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 00:37
|
KM
Are you under the impression there was more genocide going on in Serbia/Croatia than in Iraq?
There were a lot of UN resolutions the USA was enforcing going into Iraq. There may have been one sales point above all others that was selling it but there were obviously many causus belli.
I'm not even dealing with judging whether one or the other was a good idea. I think they are nearly identical wars and for the life of me I don't see how anyone who accepted the one without a peep could get so worked into a lather about the other.
|
|
| | | 272 | KM
ID: 359462113 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 02:09
|
I am under the impression there was more genocide in the Balkans. But that is irrelevant. Just as you said, I am not arguing whether each war was a good idea. Atrocities occur all over the world, and we ignore plenty of them militarily for a variety of reasons. We didn't ignore the Balkan war, and genocide was the reason above all others. If Clinton sold the war on genocide, and we found none, then proceeded to tell us how much better off we are without Slobodan in power, I'd be just as irritated.
Whether you believe we had sufficient justification in Iraq even without WMD talk, is irrelevant. Maybe we did. But, WMD was not simply one of many selling points that you could toss and still get obviously strong approval for a war. As you mentioned, it was the selling point above all others. Without the WMD representation, do we invade based on the other selling points, which mostly became prominent arguments when WMD went bust? We'll never know. We never had a chance to make that determination.
I think most everyone believes the administration did not do their due dillegence with regard to WMD. I don't think it was quite this innocent, but I'll take the kindest look back for the sake of argument. Such negligence with regard to information which had such influence over public and Congressional support for the war, is utterly reckless. Anything beyond mere negligence points to an administration that is willing to go to highly unethical measures when it believes it is in the right.
|
|
| | | 274 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 12:59
|
I am under the impression there was more genocide in the Balkans.
You are significantly misinformed then.
I think most everyone believes the administration did not do their due dillegence with regard to WMD.
The zeitgeist is worthless. Worse than worthless. Downright misleading.
Bush couldn't be expected to know more than every intelligence agency in the world.
You can believe Iraq's Dr Death and Mrs Anthrax and Dr Germ and Chemical Ali and atomic scientists who Saddam killed by the dozens to keep them from talking, had nothing to say. I can wait for the truth to come out and unlike some people I don't forget it each time they find hundreds of shells containing Sarin, or ingredients for chemical weapons stockpiled at military bases. Or chemical weapons attacks on their own citizens. Bush would rather bow to political relities and just concede the point knowing some people, the MSM, liberals, the zeitgeist will never be convinced no matter how much you find. I am not so constrained.
|
|
| | | 275 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 13:06
|
Hogwash. Bush knew that much of his claims were being challenged within his own administration even as he was stating them.
Aluminum tubes anyone? Niger uranium sales? Remember this SOTU passage: "Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production."
Both the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research and the Energy Department's intelligence branch told Bush that the tubes were unsuitable for nuclear weapons. And we now know that to be the truth.
Re-write history all you want, and go ahead and try to insulate Bush all you want. He knew what he wanted to do and ignored advice and information to the contrary in order to sell the US public on going to war in Iraq.
At least the American public is capable of admitting it made a mistake and is holding Republican lawmakers responsible for it.
|
|
| | | 276 | KM
ID: 319311512 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 14:06
|
Exactly. He cherry picked information in the face of more credible conflicting evidence in order to make the case for the war. He's already admitted he sold us a lemon, admitting several times we found no WMDs, and much of the intelligence was wrong. He's apologized for it, but told you how lucky you are to be rid of Saddam anyway. You bought a lemon, and just haven't realized it yet. You still think it's pretty to look at, so no big deal.
As for genocide death figures:
The UN issued a report believing 2 million displaced, 200,000 killed, tens of thousands rated/tortured in those several years.
Conversely, Saddam is believed to have killed about 250,000 Iraqi's over 20 years of power. Also, FYI an estimated 600,000 Iraqis have died since we invaded. Thank God we stopped that genocide so everyone can live in peace.
The relative numbers are about the same, and the Bosnian genocide occured in a much smaller period of time. I suspect you are seriously misinformed, especially about Serbia. Or are you going to point to only 8,000 legally tried deaths in Serbia, and ignore the 50+ concentration camps. And then convienently believe the highest estimate for Saddam's genocide?
|
|
| | | 277 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 14:21
|
I am serious when I say I have not found any post war coverage from the Serbia war that matched what we were led to believe would be found there. Feel free to post some links.
Where did you get the 50 concentration camps figure? While you are at it find a reliable source for 600K deaths in Iraq. I've seen it questioned.
|
|
| | | 278 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 14:23
|
...I don't forget it each time they find hundreds of shells containing Sarin, or ingredients for chemical weapons stockpiled at military bases.
good gawd awmighty, talk about revisionist history. NO SUCH FINDS HAVE BEEN MADE! NONE!
|
|
| | | 279 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 14:38
|
I don't forget it each time they find hundreds of shells containing Sarin, or ingredients for chemical weapons stockpiled at military bases.
WTF??
and in related news, the most recent picture of Baldwin is below:
|
|
| | | 280 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 14:57
|
tree is that a picture of the people who came up with the 650,000 deaths figure.
|
|
| | | 281 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:01
|
At least the American public is capable of admitting it made a mistake and is holding Republican lawmakers responsible for it.
Of coarse the the america puplic is allowed to change there minds about the invasion they do not lose there job if they change there mind. then again if they change there mind again the democrats will be the ones asked to leave. Do not confuse what is 'right' and what is 'popular'.
|
|
| | | 282 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:03
|
As a Democrat I haven't had any confusion about those for several election cycles, boikin.
|
|
| | | 283 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:09
|
NO SUCH FINDS HAVE BEEN MADE! NONE! - Sarge
Read the documents for yourself...from the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.
|
|
| | | 284 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:13
|
BTW it only took 15 of those shells to kill 5000 Kurds. One drop on your skin kills you. They've found 4 liters of it.
|
|
| | | 285 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:14
|
PD maybe you do but your leadership seems to think other wise as the "A New Direction for America," the manifesto issued by House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi. It proposes much new spending (bigger drug benefits, Pell grants and veterans benefits), new tax breaks, balanced budgets and no specific new taxes. hmmmmm, seems like they are following what is 'popular' not what is 'right' mantra.
|
|
| | | 286 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:16
|
Assuming your objection is over money rather than whether the programs should be expanded or not, I think you would need to see where the money is being taken from before making a determination. We can do a hell of a lot with the money saved from not being in Iraq.
|
|
| | | 287 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:24
|
PD why then did so many demos vote infavor of the war to start with maybe they where doing the 'popular' thing at the time and going with it, no wait they where doing the 'right' thing. becuase we know they know the differences.
|
|
| | | 288 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:35
|
re 283...you may want to READ that yourself. It makes no mention of any finds. It SURMISES that if any are yet to be found, they would "most likely" contain....
I say again....no such stockpiles of weaponry has been located. NONE.
|
|
| | | 289 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:36
|
outside of the "degraded", ie...inert, inoperable, worthless...ones. None, which would pose any threat at all.
|
|
| | | 290 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 15:54
|
boikin, I believe Bush (who had access to much more information than Congress, and particularly Congressional Democrats) slanted the information to get the result he wanted.
Framing the vote in terms of "popular" or "right" is asking the wrong question, IMO. Based upon the information at hand, did Congress act correctly on the war resolution? I think so, even knowing now that the information wasn't correct.
We can't go back, with the benefit of hindsight, and say whether they should have done differently. I don't hold anyone (Democrat or Republican) to the impossible standard of not being able to see into the future. I do, however, hold politicians responsible for not learning from the mistakes we've made in relying upon bad information.
Is this "right" or "popular?" I dunno--I don't think we need to try to force the answer into that dichotomy, just as we can't force the question the other way and say "wrong" or "unpopular."
|
|
| | | 291 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:02
|
Are you volunteering to put that to the test, Sarge?
Exactly how many vets with inexplicable symptoms would it take to make you suspect they were actually using them on you? Say if they were so frequent they were described as a 'syndrome'?
|
|
| | | 292 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:08
|
PD that seems fair enough assuming that is what truly happened, i am personally think that demos where is swept up in the cause just at the puplic was and that blinded them to resposibility of following up on the intelligence that the president gave them. though not only was the president spreading rumors so was the UN i remeber a report on PBS's front line after the questions had come out about what really was going on in Iraq and they went back and interviewed the UN weapons inspectors and many of them where convinced that Sadddam had weapons not becuase they saw them but for some reason he was being perpurposely decieitful. Going with assumtion that if there is smoke there most be in fire, when in reality it was smoke and that was it.
you say that I don't hold anyone (Democrat or Republican) to the impossible standard of not being able to see into the future. but at the same time you say At least the American public is capable of admitting it made a mistake and is holding Republican lawmakers responsible for it. so basically you are in favor of punishing the legislative branch with the sins of the excutive, kind of like playing the son for the fathers crime.
|
|
| | | 293 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:19
|
Regarding your last point: I haven't come across any Democrats running for re-election who have said they would have voted for the war knowing what they do now. But I have come across several Republicans (Sweeney, Reynolds, etc) who have not learned anything. Perhaps my earlier comment crunched together two different things, but I just haven't come across any Democrats running for re-election who have "stayed the course" on Iraq. Maybe Lieberman? But that's about it.
I do, however, think there is more to it than Iraq, and the federal budget is coming up in a number of races even if it is overshadowed by the war. I believe Republicans to be just as vulnerable on the budget and haven't come across very much at all where Republicans running for re-election are able to explain the ballooning of the budget (have you? This isn't a challenge--I haven't seen very much at all).
|
|
| | | 294 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:21
|
quit hiding in the shadows boldy and come out into the light of truth. Try reading this little piece called "State of Denial".
|
|
| | | 295 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:30
|
This place effects different people differently. MITH has turned into quite the useful poster. You, Sarge, are devolving into Tree.
|
|
| | | 296 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:35
|
lol same old Boldy. Deny the truth, hide behind ACs skirt, toss out a name or two here and there, and you call that useful.
|
|
| | | 297 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:38
|
PD as for election campigns i do not follow them too much becuase in gerneral they just tell us what we want to hear from their angle, but for campaigns in our area neither party even mentions the war. most topics deal with taxes and immigrattion. i think the general consisius that they have gotten is that the war is the war nothing they can do about it now. you are right about reps being weak on the deficet issue it just does not seem to come up i think the general public just does not care and/or understand it.
|
|
| | | 298 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 16:40
|
sarge i think he asking you try debating not making insults and calling it debate.
|
|
| | | 299 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 17:05
|
pretty sure your last boikin, should be directed in the opposite direction.
|
|
| | |
| | | 301 | Tree
ID: 101013220 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 21:17
|
You, Sarge, are devolving into Tree.
i'm sorry, did someone fart?
Baldwin, the only use you have around here at this point is for people to mock and laugh at, or, to repulse people, because, after all, you'd much rather vote for a man who leads a nation into war under false pretenses and causes 3000 deaths than you would a man who had sex outside of his marriage.
speaking of which, here's another one of those "family values" candidates you support.
A Republican congressman accused of abusing his ex-mistress agreed to pay her about $500,000 in a settlement last year that contained a powerful incentive for her to keep quiet until after Election Day, a person familiar with the terms of the deal told The Associated Press.
|
|
| | | 302 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 06:14
|
The thing you can't take, Tree, is that anyone retains a sense of perspective. You want everyone to join you in a PC minute of hate and how dare they look at the big picture.
No party that retains a congressman who had a male protitution operation running out of his home while he was in congress has the moral authority to tarbrush anyone let alone a party that kicks out a pervert from their own midst.
That is perspective. That is 'sense of proportionality'.
|
|
| | | 303 | Tree
ID: 53105435 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 07:03
|
No party that retains a congressman who had a male protitution operation running out of his home
1. According to the House Ethics Committee, Barney Frank did not have knowledge of what was going on in his home
2. Steve Gobie, who worked for Frank and claimed to be running the prostitution operation, had been fired by Frank before the allegations came to public light.
now, i realize facts rarely matter to you, and the Opinion of the Public Court of Baldwin is really all you care about, but the facts are what they are, and you can choose to ignore them if you like, but it just shows your ignorance, and your perspective (and) sense of proportionality.
another thing you delve in is generalities, such as that no party nonsense..speaking of which:
Key Evangelical quits amid gay sex claim
so, to Baldwinize that, *all* Christian men pay men for homosexual sex, *and* cheat on their wives in the process.
|
|
| | | 304 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 10:06
|
Barney Frank did not have knowledge of what was going on in his home - Tree
|
|
| | | 305 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 10:11
|
As you go pointing fingers at people resigning in shame and disgrace...
...ask your own scandal-ridden why they never resign no matter what, and why they think they can get away with that.
|
|
| | | 306 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 10:16
|
Never resign? More revisionist crap? Shut up, already.
|
|
| | | 307 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 10:18
|
Boldwin...despite your apparent fixation re Barney Frank, the scandal (events?) occured within his home true, but not under his guidance and apparently not with his knowledge or consent. How you continue to harp upon it, and justify it as a Dem scandal, is beyond all logic. The perpetrator was fired. That action took place prior to the public ever learning of the events. That is an indication, that at least 1 Dem saw fit to handle a situation correctly. Upon learning of it, he terminated the person responsible. Correlate that to Foley. Where the Rep leadership upon learning of the events, took no action what-so-ever (re corrective) and in fact then saw fit to put Foley in charge of the committee tasked with protecting the very peoples Foley was improperly involved with.
The two are apples and oranges Boldy. You cannot begin, to intelligently, claim the Dems acted improperly and that the Reps acted properly. Facts are facts (as has been repeatedly stated over the past couple of days), and the facts denounce your position 100%. So please, give it up. You have to be tired of defending the reprehensible and trying to cast aspersions where there are none to be tossed.
|
|
| | | 308 | Tree
ID: 16103338 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 10:18
|
so, in other words Baldwin - by your standards - even of there is no wrong-doing on their part, they should resign?
i mean, honestly, that's what you're saying. Barney Frank did nothing wrong, and the House Ethics Committee confirmed that.
that's the difference in these cases. i realize, like facts, guilt and evidence are irrelevant in the Court Of Baldwins Opinions (heretoforth known as COBO), but it doesn't change what is true.
|
|
| | | 309 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 12:33
|
occured within his home true...apparently not with his knowledge or consent. - Tree #2
Just shut up - PD
One man raped and groped and sexually abused his way thru state and federal government his whole carreer and knew he could count on his party to back him no matter what he did. Did not resign, even after convictions and impeachment. - Clinton, D
One man got caught with one BJ and resigned. - Gingerich, R
One man got caught engaged in infidelity/phone sex and resigned despite calls from Dems that he not step down - Bob Livingston, R One man got caught with his house being used as a house of male prostitution and is defended by the house Dems right here, right now on this board. -Frank, D
One man got caught screwing a 17 yr old male page who he had taken overseas to avoid USA laws. Not only refused to resign, he refused to apologize and served in congress 13 more years in congress until retiring. - G. Studds, D
One man got caught having had sex with a female page. Defeated in the next election in a safe heavily Republican district. - Crane, R
One man convicted as a judge of soliciting and perjuring himself over a $150,000 bribe. Currently still serving in congress. - Alcee Hastings, D
One man jailed 5 years for revealing one FBI file. - Chuck Colson, R
One man in charge of over a thousand illegal FBI files and an illegal computer database. - Hillary Clinton's goon. Not hurting her any with her supporters.
Deal with it.
|
|
| | | 310 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 12:37
|
1 man lied to the public and sent over 3,000 young Americans to their graves....GWB, Pres
deal with THAT.
|
|
| | | 311 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 13:07
|
A) Not my job
B) Not germane to the discussion
C) Bush and I think Saddam was a WMD threat so was he lying?
D) FDR lied for years to get the USA into WWII which has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was justifiable. And 6,000 Americans died.
E) Engage the entire brain, not just the amygdala, please. This place used to be about more than mere sloganeering. Which may explain why there are less and less Madman calibre posters hanging around.
|
|
| | | 312 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 13:11
|
...house Dems right here...
Thanks, but I haven't been elected yet. I'd appreciate your support, however.
|
|
| | | 313 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 13:11
|
a)Then whos eis it? You're a citizen here right? Derive the benefits of citizenry?
b)By what measure is it "not germane"?
c)You and he may think so, but that certainly doesnt make it so.
d) Odd, I always thought it was the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the sinking of s cruise liner that got us into WWII.
e) Good advice. Try it sometime.
|
|
| | | 314 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 13:14
|
PD
The zeitgeist is already well represented in congress. Spend time with your family instead.
|
|
| | | 315 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 13:20
|
Don't even try, sarge. Baldwin's point is that when Republicans do terrible things they either resign or are defeated at the polls.
But the comparisons have to be pumped up to even have a sheen of being the same. Consensual sex between legal-age adults have the same quality as accepting bribes, for instance.
Yet Republicans have done away with the kinds of ethics rules and procedures he believes should somehow be applied more evenly. Rules which don't exist, however, cannot be applied at all, let alone "fairly."
B: Jim Wright, anyone? Here's a hint: Don't use the word "never."
|
|
| | | 316 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 13:58
|
A good exception that proves the rule. Would you say Wright was typical or a genteel throwback to a more dignified time when people actually felt shame?
|
|
| | | 318 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 14:41
|
November 3, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist Insulting Our Troops, and Our Intelligence By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
George Bush, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld think you’re stupid. Yes, they do.
They think they can take a mangled quip about President Bush and Iraq by John Kerry — a man who is not even running for office but who, unlike Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, never ran away from combat service — and get you to vote against all Democrats in this election.
Every time you hear Mr. Bush or Mr. Cheney lash out against Mr. Kerry, I hope you will say to yourself, “They must think I’m stupid.” Because they surely do.
They think that they can get you to overlook all of the Bush team’s real and deadly insults to the U.S. military over the past six years by hyping and exaggerating Mr. Kerry’s mangled gibe at the president.
What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to the U.S. military than to send it into combat in Iraq without enough men — to launch an invasion of a foreign country not by the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force, but by the Rumsfeld Doctrine of just enough troops to lose? What could be a bigger insult than that?
What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in uniform than sending them off to war without the proper equipment, so that some soldiers in the field were left to buy their own body armor and to retrofit their own jeeps with scrap metal so that roadside bombs in Iraq would only maim them for life and not kill them? And what could be more injurious and insulting than Don Rumsfeld’s response to criticism that he sent our troops off in haste and unprepared: Hey, you go to war with the army you’ve got — get over it.
What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in uniform than to send them off to war in Iraq without any coherent postwar plan for political reconstruction there, so that the U.S. military has had to assume not only security responsibilities for all of Iraq but the political rebuilding as well? The Bush team has created a veritable library of military histories — from “Cobra II” to “Fiasco” to “State of Denial” — all of which contain the same damning conclusion offered by the very soldiers and officers who fought this war: This administration never had a plan for the morning after, and we’ve been making it up — and paying the price — ever since.
And what could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in Iraq than to send them off to war and then go out and finance the very people they’re fighting against with our gluttonous consumption of oil? Sure, George Bush told us we’re addicted to oil, but he has not done one single significant thing — demanded higher mileage standards from Detroit, imposed a gasoline tax or even used the bully pulpit of the White House to drive conservation — to end that addiction. So we continue to finance the U.S. military with our tax dollars, while we finance Iran, Syria, Wahhabi mosques and Al Qaeda madrassas with our energy purchases.
Everyone says that Karl Rove is a genius. Yeah, right. So are cigarette companies. They get you to buy cigarettes even though we know they cause cancer. That is the kind of genius Karl Rove is. He is not a man who has designed a strategy to reunite our country around an agenda of renewal for the 21st century — to bring out the best in us. His “genius” is taking some irrelevant aside by John Kerry and twisting it to bring out the worst in us, so you will ignore the mess that the Bush team has visited on this country.
And Karl Rove has succeeded at that in the past because he was sure that he could sell just enough Bush cigarettes, even though people knew they caused cancer. Please, please, for our country’s health, prove him wrong this time.
Let Karl know that you’re not stupid. Let him know that you know that the most patriotic thing to do in this election is to vote against an administration that has — through sheer incompetence — brought us to a point in Iraq that was not inevitable but is now unwinnable.
Let Karl know that you think this is a critical election, because you know as a citizen that if the Bush team can behave with the level of deadly incompetence it has exhibited in Iraq — and then get away with it by holding on to the House and the Senate — it means our country has become a banana republic. It means our democracy is in tatters because it is so gerrymandered, so polluted by money, and so divided by professional political hacks that we can no longer hold the ruling party to account.
It means we’re as stupid as Karl thinks we are.
I, for one, don’t think we’re that stupid. Next Tuesday we’ll see.
|
|
| | | 319 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 14:57
|
he has not done one single significant thing
"Significant" is a fairly difficult word to pin down. I'm no friend of Bush, but he's done two things:
-forced automakers to raise fuel standards for pickups and some SUVs
-given federal tax credits for those converting to alternative energy sources, such as installing solar panels on your house.
He doesn't think we're stupid. He thinks we're just like him...
(j/k)
|
|
| | | 320 | KM
ID: 359462113 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 15:07
|
PD, to what extent do you think Bush controls his own Presidency? For example, when I think of Bush Senior, or Clintion, I imagine a man making mostly independent decisions.
|
|
| | | 321 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 15:20
|
Well, I think that there is really only a small percentage that a President can control, and the rest is thrust upon him. Obama guessed that number at about 10% which sounds about right.
But both Bushes seem to have been overshadowed by their advisors, IMO. Other presidents (Reagan, Clinton, JFK) seem more in control of the direction that their presidency goes. Clinton once said that GWB had amazingly good political instincts, and at the level he has gotten I don't think you can be as stupid as people say he is. In general terms I believe he's a pretty smart guy, even though others in his office have seemed smarter or have been smoother about it.
That said, Bush seems to value loyalty much more than many other presidents and has had a rubberstamp Congress, so we're aren't able to get a good peek in the office as much as we have in other presidents. In 5-10 years we'll start getting some books on the subject which will shed a little more light on the process. And by that time his decisions will be able to be seen in a better light.
|
|
| | | 322 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 15:24
|
Yeah, that's a good question. Not that you asked me, but I have an uneducated opinion: I wonder to what extent Bush was making decisions early on, and is at this point? I think/guess/speculate (cos what do I know about the inner workings of the White House) that Bush has a very tight inner circle of thinkers, and he asks very few questions, and based on the recommendations of his inner circle, forms conclusions consistent with his narrow but perceived righteous view of how things should be. He then makes up his mind and nothing short of water boarding his daughters for weeks on end (or withdrawal of the party life, choose your greater evil) could cause him not to stay his course.
- walk
|
|
| | | 323 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 15:44
|
Well, I think that there is really only a small percentage that a President can control, and the rest is thrust upon him. Obama guessed that number at about 10% which sounds about right.
I would think in Ws case that % is even smaller. Conspiracy theories aside, he couldn't control 9/11 happening nor could he control Katrina; two big defining moments of his presidency.
|
|
| | | 324 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 15:45
|
Rumsfeld and Cheney. THOSE, are the two who have been running things for the past 6 years.
|
|
| | | 325 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 16:46
|
Yeah, I tend to agree with Sarge33rd. - walk
|
|
| | | 326 | KM
ID: 359462113 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 16:53
|
Anyone see American Dreamz?
|
|
| | | 327 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 20:58
|
but he's done two things: -PD
Were those decisions made in the executive branch or the legislative? [sorry to ask you to google, I'm just not the googler I once was]
I am guessing legislative, so...I guess you'd still have to prove he spent political capitol to get those approved or find that some regulatory body has been writing laws.
|
|
| | | 328 | Perm Dude
ID: 22101322 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 23:01
|
Both were done at the Executive Level. In fact, Congress was pissed about Bush taking on the CAFE standards himself, but he did so after saying that Congress wasn't doing anything about them (he was right) and that he was (right again).
Will find some links. Both were discussed on this site, at one point.
|
|
| | | 329 | Perm Dude
ID: 22101322 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 23:07
|
Easier to find than I thought
Mineta's letter noted that the Bush administration has used its authority to set standards on light trucks and sport utility vehicles to raise gas mileage levels.
"The DOT raised the light truck and sport utility vehicle standards twice in the last four years," Mineta wrote.
Previous to this, Congress refused to include light trucks and SUVs in any CAFE standards.
|
|
| | | 330 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Fri, Nov 03, 2006, 23:34
|
Not a conservative.
|
|
| | | 331 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Nov 04, 2006, 13:01
|
Rumsfeld and Cheney. THOSE, are the two who have been running things for the past 6 years.
Papers sold to military: ‘Rumsfeld must go’
According to Woodward in State of Denial, Chief of Staff Card spent his last 12 months in the WH, trying to get GWB to replace Rumsfeld. As it became clear that such wasnt going to happen, he began letting the Pres know that a new Chief of Staff would be needed soon.
|
|
| | | 332 | Tree
ID: 810052 Sun, Nov 05, 2006, 03:38
|
i've been out of town for most of the weekend, but i need to go back to this, as i find Baldwin's ignorance to be somewhat blissful, almost as if i'm dealing with a child that cries and screams and demands he gets his way, even when he's wrong:
One man raped and groped and sexually abused his way thru state and federal government his whole carreer and knew he could count on his party to back him no matter what he did. Did not resign, even after convictions and impeachment. - Clinton, D
i'm sorry. i must have missed something here. what was clinton convicted of? and, if he was convicted of something, what sexual crimes was he convicted of, as you are alluding to this.
One man got caught with his house being used as a house of male prostitution and is defended by the house Dems right here, right now on this board. -Frank, D
we've been through this. just because you invent things in your little mind, doesn't mean they really happened. whatever went on in Frank's house likely went on without his knowledge, and the person who was committing the wrong doings was fired by Frank before the thing even went public.
One man got caught screwing a 17 yr old male page who he had taken overseas to avoid USA laws. Not only refused to resign, he refused to apologize and served in congress 13 more years in congress until retiring. - G. Studds, D
check your facts. at 17, the male page was of the legal age of consent, and the relationship was completely legal in Massachusetts.
what should he apologize for? doing nothing against the law?
One man convicted as a judge of soliciting and perjuring himself over a $150,000 bribe. Currently still serving in congress. - Alcee Hastings, D
a tad misleading above, because of how you went for brevity instead of detail.
Hastings was impeached and convicted, as a judge, for the above crime that you mentioned. he was, however, acquitted, in a criminal trial.
Then, THREE YEARS AFTER HIS IMPEACHMENT AND CONVICTION, Hastings was elected to congress.
his crimes happened prior to his election, and he was punished for them, so i'm not sure what he would be removed from office for.
One man in charge of over a thousand illegal FBI files and an illegal computer database. - Hillary Clinton's goon. Not hurting her any with her supporters.
care to elaborate, since you're known for your wild Clinton accusations that have zero basis in fact or truth.
Deal with it.
exactly - deal with it. except for your vivid fantasy life, none of the above examples are relevant.
a for effort thogh, kid. keep it up, and one day, you might amount to something!
|
|
| | | 333 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 14:34
|
NYT “We’re going to take a two-year hiatus,” Representative Thomas M. Reynolds of New York, chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee, told reporters at a morning news briefing. Of Ms. Pelosi, he said: “My goal and job will be to make sure she never sets the record that Denny Hastert set.”
Mr. Reynolds was referring to the current speaker, Representative J. Dennis Hastert of Illinois, who has held the job longer than any other Republican in the nation’s history. Uh, yeah. I think that one's safe, Tommyboy.
|
|
| | | 334 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Nov 10, 2006, 10:48
|
November 10, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist The Great Revulsion By PAUL KRUGMAN
I’m not feeling giddy as much as greatly relieved. O.K., maybe a little giddy. Give ’em hell, Harry and Nancy!
Here’s what I wrote more than three years ago, in the introduction to my column collection “The Great Unraveling”: “I have a vision — maybe just a hope — of a great revulsion: a moment in which the American people look at what is happening, realize how their good will and patriotism have been abused, and put a stop to this drive to destroy much of what is best in our country.”
At the time, the right was still celebrating the illusion of victory in Iraq, and the bizarre Bush personality cult was still in full flower. But now the great revulsion has arrived.
Tuesday’s election was a truly stunning victory for the Democrats. Candidates planning to caucus with the Democrats took 24 of the 33 Senate seats at stake this year, winning seven million more votes than Republicans. In House races, Democrats received about 53 percent of the two-party vote, giving them a margin more than twice as large as the 2.5-percentage-point lead that Mr. Bush claimed as a “mandate” two years ago — and the margin would have been even bigger if many Democrats hadn’t been running unopposed.
The election wasn’t just the end of the road for Mr. Bush’s reign of error. It was also the end of the 12-year Republican dominance of Congress. The Democrats will now hold a majority in the House that is about as big as the Republicans ever achieved during that era of dominance.
Moreover, the new Democratic majority may well be much more effective than the majority the party lost in 1994. Thanks to a great regional realignment, in which a solid Northeast has replaced the solid South, Democratic control no longer depends on a bloc of Dixiecrats whose ideological sympathies were often with the other side of the aisle.
Now, I don’t expect or want a permanent Democratic lock on power. But I do hope and believe that this election marks the beginning of the end for the conservative movement that has taken over the Republican Party.
In saying that, I’m not calling for or predicting the end of conservatism. There always have been and always will be conservatives on the American political scene. And that’s as it should be: a diversity of views is part of what makes democracy vital.
But we may be seeing the downfall of movement conservatism — the potent alliance of wealthy individuals, corporate interests and the religious right that took shape in the 1960s and 1970s. This alliance may once have had something to do with ideas, but it has become mainly a corrupt political machine, and America will be a better place if that machine breaks down.
Why do I want to see movement conservatism crushed? Partly because the movement is fundamentally undemocratic; its leaders don’t accept the legitimacy of opposition. Democrats will only become acceptable, declared Grover Norquist, the president of Americans for Tax Reform, once they “are comfortable in their minority status.” He added, “Any farmer will tell you that certain animals run around and are unpleasant, but when they’ve been fixed, then they are happy and sedate.”
And the determination of the movement to hold on to power at any cost has poisoned our political culture. Just think about the campaign that just ended, with its coded racism, deceptive robo-calls, personal smears, homeless men bused in to hand out deceptive fliers, and more. Not to mention the constant implication that anyone who questions the Bush administration or its policies is very nearly a traitor.
When movement conservatism took it over, the Republican Party ceased to be the party of Dwight Eisenhower and became the party of Karl Rove. The good news is that Karl Rove and the political tendency he represents may both have just self-destructed.
Two years ago, people were talking about permanent right-wing dominance of American politics. But since then the American people have gotten a clearer sense of what rule by movement conservatives means. They’ve seen the movement take us into an unnecessary war, and botch every aspect of that war. They’ve seen a great American city left to drown; they’ve seen corruption reach deep into our political process; they’ve seen the hypocrisy of those who lecture us on morality.
And they just said no.
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 337 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 10:37
|
Absolutely appalling. If he is a terrorist, prove it. How can anyone defend this? Even Republican appointed judges have to overrule this abomination.
|
|
| | | 338 | Perm Dude
ID: 36103149 Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 10:55
|
Unbelievable. Essentially, the Administration is saying that they don't care about evidence or even the proof of guilt or innocence. If they say you are guilty that should be enough. Even if they are wrong.
|
|
| | | 339 | bibA Sustainer
ID: 261028117 Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 11:36
|
It really is quite sad. It is only a matter of time before these policies are corrected. Can Bush have any hope whatsoever that history will judge him positively as to his detention actions?
|
|
| | | 340 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 12:51
|
Thank the recent Congressional action and the flurry to "protect America against terrorists". When the legislature did away with habeous corpus, this was the inevitable result.
|
|
| | | 341 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Wed, Nov 22, 2006, 17:27
|
What's the GOP's fate?
I believe the GOP can compete and win again, but not until the Iraq War is removed as an issue. The people are against the war in Iraq. That is clear in polls, and this opinion was put into action in the 2006 vote.
There is no possibility that a "stay the course" GOP candidate can win in 2008. A "stay the course" GOP 2008 candidate would lead to an electoral disaster of Goldwater-like proportions. My first assumption when I considered this question immediately after the election was that no '08 GOP candidate would adopt a position of continuing the war. I have concluded that I might be wrong -- McCain is stubborn enough to do it, and Giuliani has been a committed hawk ("Withdrawing now would be like the Union withdrawing in the middle of the Civil War.") About a quarter of Americans are in favour of the war -- and that translates into about half of the GOP's base. In any case, having a GOP candidate repudiating an existing GOP president's policy would create the kind of dissension and confusion that loses elections. There are some parallels between the present and the situation of the Democratic party in 1968. If all major GOP prez candidates were pro-war, would there emerge a "peace" candidate who could create major waves? I suspect there would.
Still it is clear that no pro-war candidate can win in 2008. Therefore no long-term plan for "winning the war" is possible -- because any administration pursuing it would be defeated before it could realize its goals.
Therefore it's George Bush's duty to the Republican Party to propose a phased withdrawal from Iraq, one that would be well under way by the Fall of 2008.
The remainder of the GOP's problems can be fixed. I say this despite a number of bad indicators: It will be a while before the GOP retakes any house of Congress. The Republicans defend 21 seats in 2008 to the Dems' 12, and have many more marginal races (in a neutral year). The House won't be retaken until there is a GOP wave, and who knows how long that will be. I'm not that convinced that Speaker Pelosi will be unpopular; even if the Dem House screws up, it takes more than 2 years to become unpopular enough to be defeated as a party; incumbents are very hard to beat and very few Dem incumbents have been defeated since 1994 except due to redistricting. Hispanics are becoming increasingly more important as a voting block and are voting two-thirds or more Democratic.
But there's nothing in the GOP's general relationship with the electorate that suggests general disaster or uncompetitiveness.
If the war is eliminated as an issue.
Toral
|
|
| | | 342 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Thu, Dec 14, 2006, 17:40
|
Wasn't sure which thread to put this story in. The Hillary thread, the Democratic Party thread, or this one? I picked this one because the main item of news in the story is the current popularity of McCain:Democrats have an overwhelmingly favorable view of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, but she would be soundly beaten if she ran for president against Republican Sen. John McCain now, a new Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found....Given a choice between McCain and Clinton, half of those surveyed said they would vote for the Arizona Republican, compared with 36% for the former first lady. This despite a strong general preference for a Dem president:Among registered voters, 49% said they would like to see a Democrat win the White House in 2008, whereas 41% preferred a Republican. McCain's performance is rather astounding in these conditions. The popularity of McCain and Giuliani is one of the very few positive things the GOP has going for it in '08.
But he's in favour of sending more troops to Iraq. If in '08 he's taking a position which would send more troops to Iraq, running against a Democrat -- any Democrat -- in favour of withdrawing within a year, can he still win?
Toral
|
|
| | | 343 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 01:37
|
McCain is a very interesting case. I guess the fact that rightist voters are typically very loyal to the GOP coupled with McCain's popularity among moderates and that he even seems to command some notable respect from the left makes him look like a very strong nominee. Especially if Iraq issues are no longer at the forefront by the height of the 2008 election season. The question, of course, is how well he fares against other potential Republican nominees. I've never understood the high level of disdain that so many conservatives have for him, but its undeniable. The base seems to just loathe him. In this year's GOP bloggers straw poll that included 11 potential 2008 GOP primary candidates, in which some 78.4% of respondents rate themselves a 7 or higher on a "conservativeness" scale of 1-10, only 22.3% view McCain favorably, good for 9th best. 64.5% viewed him unfavorably - the highest percentage of all candidates. By comparison, Guiliani was favorable to 64.5 of respondents, second only to Mitt Romney. He was seen as unfavorable by only 19.8%, again second best to Romney.
I fail to see the merit. They seem much harder on him for his support of Bush's guest-worker program than they are on Bush, who has otherwise all but ignored the illegal immigrant problem. They will probably never forgive him for CFR. And there are gripes about his sympathy for environmental issues.
But from where I stand it appears that their biggest beef are his willingness to work with (rather than push aside) Senate Dems and the fact that the media seems to respect him as signs that he is not a true conservative:
  
Its shocking to repeatedly see McCain repeatedly referred to as a liberal traitor while Guliani is held on a pedestal. From my perspective, their respective conservative credentials aren't even close.
In fact, McCain is well established as one of the most dedicated hawks on congress. His unwavering support for the War or Terror and the Iraq War is probably unmatched in Congress. As moderate Republicans quietly ride the fence on ISG report and even many of the hawks are careful and guarded in any dissent, McCain quickly responded by calling for significantly increasing troop levels.
Project Vote-Smart
He supports "greatly increasing" defense spending including intelligence programs, pay for active duty personnel, programs to improve troop retention rates and troop and equipment readiness.
He opposes abortion except in cases of rape, incest and danger to the life of the mother and opposes public funding of abortions and of organizations that advocate or perform abortions.
Advocates further lowering taxes.
Opposes gay marriage.
Supports a federal death penalty.
Supports "truth in sentencing" - eliminating parole for violent criminals.
Supports additional criminal penalties if a fetus is killed in the commission of a federal crime against a pregnant woman. Supports prosecuting minors accused of violent crimes being tried as adults.
Supports school vouchers.
Supports allowing citizens to carry concealed firearms.
Supports legislation that would protect manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and importers of firearms from civil lawsuits by crime victims.
Supports limiting damage awards to malpractice patients.
Guiliani, on the other hand;
Supports Roe v Wade.
Does not support a ban on partial birth abortions
Supports a licensing system for all firearms, including rifles.
Criticized congress for allowing the assault-weapons ban expire. Of course he has recently hinted at a flip-flop on the assault weapons ban. And we know how the right loves flip-floppers.
Besides his support for the war on terror, what do they know about his foreign policy ideas? What do they know of his trade ideas?
And despite being more closely aligned with my social issues preferences than most Republicans, I'm not the least bit impressed with Rudy Giuliani. And I'm not sure why most people, liberal or conservative, would be, once they take a close look.
One of his greatest winning issues is his alleged success in fighting violent crime in NYC, for which his credit is largely undeserved. It should be clear by now that the drop in crime that happened in NYC happened all over the country and was largely the result of the end of the crack epidemic. If any policy did have an impact, it was the city's Broken Windows approach, which he was most certainly not the innovator of. It was first brought to the city in 1984 by then Mayor Ed Koch who used it to clean up teh subways. It was then expanded by the next Mayor, David Dinkins. Giuliani should be credited with recognizing an effective approach and applying it more broadly as it continued to prove effective, just as his predecesors before him. Fact is, if the crack trade had remained strong, Broken Windows probably wouldn't have had a very noticable effect.
His "stop and frisk" policy which called for police to stop and pat down any one they deemed as "suspicious" at any time, with no more justification than the discretion of the officer. What a terrible time to be a young minority male here. Of course the policy ended when Giuliani left and crime has continued to drop.
New Yorkers will never forget his instantaneous support for the police officers who killed unarmed and innocent Amadu Diallo in a hail of bullets as he stood in the doorway of his home in 1999.
Hours after the shooting, before any investigation is made, Giuliani said in a press conference, "I think it will likely develop that Mr. Diallo had a language barrier which prevented him from understanding and complying wiht the officers' orders and made him continue to act in an aggressive manner toward the police officers."
When unarmed Patrick Dorismond was killed by NYC cops in 2000 Giuliani again expressed immediate support for the actions of his cops before the facts were out and only hours after the shooting had Dorismond's court-sealed juvenile records released to the public. He explained several days later on FOX News Channel, "People do act in conformity very often with their prior behavior... (the media) would not want a picture presented of an altar boy, when in fact, maybe it isn't an altar boy, it's some other situation that may justify, more closely, what the police officer did."
Anyone who has paid attention knows that Bloomberg's post NYPD shooting pressers are always much more even and calming, urging the public to wait for details and assuring that a full investigation will be conducted that will result in apropriate action. Imagine that.
And for all the respect he gets for his personal reaction and response to 9/11, which I agree was commendable a clinic on how a leader publicly reacts in a disaster. However it should be noted that this aspect of leadership was explicitly downplayed and dismissed by Bush supporters who defended the President's reactions to both 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina.
Further, he was given quite a pass on city preparedness for such a disaster. If Clinton and/or Bush are to be criticized for not addressing terrorism and if Governor Blanco and Mayor whatshisname in New Orleans are to be criticized for their lack of hurricane preparedness, it seems rather obvious that Rudy was very lucky that his lack of contingency plans or even calls for public and national attention to the issue were never exposed. If Presidents Clinton and Bush should have done something about the growing terrorist threat, why shouldn't the Mayor of the biggest terrorism target in the country? As Clinton critics always rush to point out, NYC had already been attacked once.
And then there were the non-working FDNY radios that surely resulted in more firemen (and possibly civilian) casualties that day than otherwise would likely have happened.
The 9/11 Commission didn't even ask him about them.
Anyway, back to McCain, I personally don't care for most of his position issues. But to me, he seems smart and competent. He looks like a strong, confident and effective executive and for that I respect him, despite my opposition to his politics because I feel that strong, competant executive leadership is a more important void to fill in our government than support for my personal politics (both hurt, of course). I would have gladly voted for him in favor of John Kerry in 2004. I would have voted for him in favor of Ralph Nader, who I did vote for.
For a national GOP figure of his stature, he has better than usual respect from many of his political opponents and also the mainstream media (for the time being, at least). Those should should be excellent advantages for effective leadership.
So tell me, please, why do I have the feeling that that is exactly the petty root of the right's considerable dislike and distrust of him?
|
|
| | | 344 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 13:30
|
Great post MITH and great points just above by Toral. Hillary's negatives are remarkable indeed. 2007 will be an interesting case study in the rehabilitation of her image. The facts are clear today, Hillary is reviled by many. Can millions of dollars and a battalion of campaign managers/handlers change her perception enough to get her elected? We'll see.
I'm with MITH completely regarding the befuddlement amongst us on the outside looking into the Republican circus. Why is McCain reviled?
I think I know why Giuliani is liked, however. For many of the same reasons these Republicans like the current President, Giuliani's personal politics are pure fascist. I don't use that word lightly here, the man has a massive temper, refuses to apologize or even consider he is wrong. He is vindictive, spiteful, mean and wears an arrogance that borders Mussolini territory. All the trademarks of a bitter, impotent man.
I am not afraid, though, as I cannot envision a scenario in which he becomes President. He will melt down under the pressure and show his fangs. The country as a whole is extremely weary of having an A$$hole-in-Chief as shown above - only 40% of the country wants a Republican president in 2008 and Bush's approval ratings are Saddam-like. Giuliani made so many enemies in NYC, there will be no shortage of people eager to tell horror stories regarding his blow-ups and his affairs in Gracie Mansion.
|
|
| | | 345 | Perm Dude
ID: 41116159 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 13:39
|
McCain is a "loose cannon" in a party which values loyalty above anything else. And when you spend so much effort as a party to dehumanize and revile the other party, and McCain comes along talking about how he works with Democrats, you have the makings of a hateful backlash.
I agree with you on both, Zen. However, Rudy learned how to work with Democrats in NYC even though he was heavy-handed, and by all appearances doesn't hate them as a party. This might make for an interesting primary, as rightwinger McCain and "liberal" Guiliani steer to the middle while a "truer" moderate like Romney go hard right.
|
|
| | | 346 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 15:07
|
I'm afraid I can't shed much light on why many conservatives have such a visceral hatred of McCain. It surprises me when I read conservative message boards. I can understand why he wouldn't be their first choice. The antipathy seems to be tied to a belief that his maverick positions are ones that appeal to the liberal consensus, are an effort to pander to the MSM. Doesn't explain the depth of the hostility to me however.
I believe Zen is right about Giuliani's appeal to (some) conservatives (aside from 9/11 leadership) although I obviously wouldn't use the word "fascist". It's the impression that he's the toughest guy on the block. He has appeal even though on social issues (aside from crime/civil liberties) he could run in a Democratic primary without having to change any positions. In addition to the ones MITH mentioned, he is pro-gay rights, pro-affirmative action, and pro-immigration, having ordered NYC employees not to cooperate with the INS and having supported the McCain/Kennedy immigration bill. That's not even counting one annulment and a divorce in which his wife publicly blames his adultery. He can put together an odd coalition of GOP social liberals/moderates plus conservatives who like tough authoritarian leadership. Similar to points made by MITH and Zen I would note a)his positions on lots of issues aren't known b) he has plenty of time in a primary season for the 9/11 leadership aura to melt away.
One thing I would note is that conservatives do not control the nominating process. They may be able to destroy a candidate, but they can't elect one. The nominee is picked by the party establishment, which overlaps with conservatives but is not identical. From a Robert Novak column earlier this week: It is beginning to look like ''McCain, Inc.'' -- that is, party regulars, corporate officials and Washington lawyers and lobbyists moving toward McCain, the man they feared and loathed eight years ago. The GOP, abhorring competition and detesting surprises, likes to establish its presidential nominee well in advance. I first appreciated this in 1996, when Robert J. Dole's candidacy was dying after he barely won in Iowa and lost New Hampshire, Arizona and Delaware. He then won eight of eight primaries on a single Tuesday. When I asked a Dole adviser how this happened, he said it was ''Dole, Inc.'' repelling outsiders seeking the nomination, Steve Forbes and Pat Buchanan.
Viewing Republican presidential campaigns through this lens finds the corporate party selecting one candidate -- and invariably nominating him. It has nothing to do with ideology. After the establishment fiercely opposed Ronald Reagan as an extremist in 1976, he became ''Reagan, Inc.'' in 1980. The most vivid instance was the coalition's early embrace for 2000 of ''George W. Bush, Inc.,'' though he had little to commend him apart from his name.
Toral
|
|
| | |
| | | 348 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Sat, Dec 30, 2006, 17:52
|
Myboyjack, do you think Anne Northup's political career is over, or could she regain the House seat, if not in '08, in a neutral year?
I'll miss her because I thought she was kind of cute and with Kentucky closing early, her district was a bellwether.
Toral
|
|
| | | 349 | Perm Dude
ID: 39012259 Thu, Jan 25, 2007, 14:00
|
As Andrew Sullivan puts it: Hugh Hewitt's head explodes
I'm all for Republicans who want to cleave their own party. More for us, I suppose. But Glenn Greenwald has a kickass response.
|
|
| | |
| | | 351 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 22:06
|
Newsflash: Bob Barr has left the Republican Party. (Actually the story is over a year old.)
People's Reaction: Yay! One less crazy to defend!
Toral
|
|
| | | 352 | Perm Dude
ID: 453049 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 22:15
|
My understanding from that article was that he didn't leave the GOP until late last year (my dim recollection was that he stumped for a few Republicans in the last election, but I might have mixed him up with other yahoos who seemed surprised that letting the theocrats be their moral compass took them completely out of their game plan).
This would be a good thing (a sort of occassional weeding) that every party needs. But the way the Administation treated Matthew Dowd makes me think that the big-tent "compassionate conservative" movement is now dead.
|
|
| | | 353 | Baldwin
ID: 3503618 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 22:28
|
People's Reaction: Yay! One less crazy to defend! - Toral
That would be 'people' from Canada where 'conservatives' are ever so slightly, almost imperceptibly to the right of Pierre Trudeau.
|
|
| | | 354 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 22:35
|
But the way the Administation treated Matthew Dowd makes me think that the big-tent "compassionate conservative" movement is now dead.
I believe you are showing your unfamiliarity with conservatism here, pd. First, Dowd (via your own links) does not claim he was treated badly. Second, Dowd is a former Democrat. My 1st draft reply to your post above actually named Dowd as example of the principle, "Never trust anyone who has been at any time a Democrat." Former Democrats always run when the shooting starts.
(Ronald Reagan excepted ;') )
But of course the clincher, something you seem to be totally unaware of, is that it is Dowd who, through his poll analysis, convinced Karl Rove in 2001 that the future could not be won through independents, that the 2000 Florida imbroglio had so politicized people that victory could only be won by energizing the base. Dowd was not an originator of "compassionate conservatism"; he was its main foe, the person who first sugggested that it could not work.
Your comment suggests total unawareness of the actual situation. Since this is Holy Week, a time for reflection and penitence, I will note that it is no sin, and unsurprising, that you do not understand conservative politics. But if you suggest that you do have that knowledge when you do not, that inevitably risks the sin of pride. Best to avoid doing it, and occasions that might invoke it( in RC theology, "occasions of sin"). Of course I might also be guilty myself. Per Scripture: "Let every man examine himself."
Toral
|
|
| | | 355 | Perm Dude
ID: 453049 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 22:44
|
Perhaps my note was unclear, rather than simply a result of unfamiliarity or unawareness of the situation.
My point was that the GOP are losing both the Liberterians and the moderates/Reagan Democrats. A little pruning (as I noted) might be needed by all political parties, but for the GOP to cut back on both sides seems to reveal a lack of political focus.
We're seeing that with the GOP candidates right now, I think.
Dowd, of course, did quite a bit of shooting himself. To claim cowardice on Dowd's part despite his part in the last two presidential elections makes me think your anti-Democrat bias is enough, at times, to overcome the facts at hand.
What's pretty clear is that this Administration and its boosters are still very focused on loyalty as the most important trait of Republicans (new and old) despite losing support from both sides, and from people who themselves were fanatic about the Party just a few years ago.
|
|
| | | 356 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 22:55
|
I think you are right and wrong at the same time. But essentially wrong, I would argue. The GOP is definitely losing, as you said " both the Liberterians and the moderates/Reagan Democrats". But it is *not* losing them at any greater rate than it is losing the general population. GOP is down 8-10% -- essentially the same decrease -- completely across the board, rich or poor, Jew or Gentile, boss or employee, religious or not-religious, married or single, white or Hispanic (actually the results show the GOP going up among blacks, but the subsample sizes are so small as to make the result unreliable.)
|
|
| | | 357 | Perm Dude
ID: 453049 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 22:59
|
Interesting. Thanks--something to think about. Essentially, then, they are losing everyone at about the same rate?
Iraq, of course, seems to be galvanizing a number of odd bedfellows (to mangle a metaphor). And the size of government spending, along with some standard second-term blowback might be helping suppress some numbers. I wonder how long it will take the GOP to overcome what Bush has done to the party.
|
|
| | | 358 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 23:37
|
I wonder how long it will take the GOP to overcome what Bush has done to the party.
Indeed.
As I mentioned in another thread where , you cited a Pew research study, I intend to start a thread on the topic of... the topic of...
As a teaser, it is a topic that should tickle your fancy, and also tickle your fancy of all liberals, and perhaps particularly those whose function on these boards is currently to act as your stooges, such as walk. It is quite possible that you and walk are going to inherit the earth.
The most interesting question to me is not, will the Dems do well in 2008, or can Hillary win, or why is Rudy so popular and can the popularity continue, etc. The stakes are much greater than that. There is the possibility of a tectonic shift; one in which the word "liberal" would become a word that politicians reach for and aspire to, that they actively seek out and endorse; one in which the word "conservative" is one which politicians shun and avoid. That may sound fantastic to some readers, but that is the way it was before the mid-60s. "conservative" was an insult term, a term of abuse; Peter Viereck in his books cited examples of actual cases in which the use of the epithet "conservative" had been taken as a mitigating factor in sentencing. (viz, "he was cursing me with a lot of swear words, calling me a conservative, and things like that.") Conservative Republicans called themselves moderates; moderate Republicans called themselves liberals; all Democrats, even deep South Dems who held views that modern society views as "racist", gloried in their self-identification as "liberals". James Eastland (D-- Miss.)proudly boasted of being a liberal so long as he was alive. Even knowing that no person who called himself a "liberal" could ever win the seat again after he died.
I guess I'm spoiling my future thread here... but the question is whther we are entering a liberal era, just as we did in 1932. We entered a conservative era in the mid-60s -- 68 is as good a date as any. And political scientists wrote about "32-year cycles", and people laughed.
Could it be happening again? What are the signs we should look for?
If conservatives come to realize that they are going down, going down for the third time, what should they do? Can conservatives live in a world where conservative triumphalism has been completely rebuked, where they are the openly despised minority?
I can't say much more without spoiling my thread.
Same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel.
My best wishes for Maundy Thursday.
Toral
|
|
| | | 359 | Perm Dude
ID: 453049 Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 23:42
|
Well, I look forward to that thread.
I would say, though, that the Dems have moved quite a bit rightward (thanks to Bill Clinton) than the 60s. Perhaps there is a maturation there, or perhaps not, but there is a core of moderate Dems who support pro-business arrangements, would only be willing to deal with affirmative action in non-quota ways, want to shrink the size of government, etc. While there are outliers, I don't know that a "liberal" today would have a ton in common with a "liberal" of, say, 1965.
But it'll be your thread. So write it, dammit.
|
|
| | | 360 | Baldwin
ID: 3503618 Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 07:31
|
The republicans are in the land of 'if you are really a watered down democrat they might as well vote for a democrat'
Bush and his crew have turned the republican party into the big government, big spending party in the minds of the people and if the public can no longer depend on them to be true to a single aspect of the Reagan revolution then where is the difference? What do conservatives or libertarians have to gain by voting for republicans and getting big spending, big government tar all over their reputation? Better to hand power back to Dems and let them stink from the results of these policies.
|
|
| | | 361 | Boxman
ID: 251142612 Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 13:14
|
Baldwin: Do you think there is a significant amount of conservatives left in the country to be able to put together a legitimate conservative party now that the Republicans are really Democrat-lite?
|
|
| | | 362 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 13:37
|
Odd question from a neocon.
|
|
| | | 363 | Baldwin
ID: 3503618 Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 14:29
|
The Reagan coalition is still there for the taking for anyone who can legitimately lay claim to it.
This can be seen from the fact that the Dems still don't dare voice their own philosophy and run away from the word liberal like it was leprosy.
The fact tho remains that the S&B power elite own the fundraising and upper management of the Republican party. [not the grassroots activism, however]. They know that they could foist anyone short of a drooling monster on their party, run them against Hillary and get reliable support so the odds are they aren't gonna do conservatives any favors.
Fred Thompson has the charisma to grab Reagan's mantle and run with it and if he had the balls to stick to his philosophical roots and beat back the neocons then he'd rule, but this guy is too much of a consensus builder and compromiser and I am not sure conservatives can even trust him not to be talked out of his principles once in power and this perception will work against him at every stage.
|
|
| | | 364 | Perm Dude
ID: 353158 Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 14:34
|
Fred Thompson does have some decent conservative creds, but since James Dobson doesn't believe he's a Christian there's little chance of him getting ahead.
Frankly, while many are looking for the new Reagan, even Reagan would have a hard time in the current party.
|
|
| | | 365 | Baldwin
ID: 3503618 Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 14:41
|
He had an assination attempt from Bush's close family friend. Yes, I'd say he'd have a hard time.
|
|
| | | 366 | Perm Dude
ID: 353158 Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 14:45
|
Heh. As Jesse Jackson knows, though, victim mythology can take you pretty far in politics...
|
|
| | | 367 | Perm Dude
ID: 48432167 Wed, May 16, 2007, 21:40
|
Full-court press conversions continue...
This may have been addressed elsewhere (there was some grumbling about some over-the-top Christianizing of the Air Force Academy not long ago), but this all seems to be a pretty logical step: Ensure that the armed forces are more Republican the higher up you go, and then deputize the GOP into the Christian Army.
The outright politization of the DoJ and the turning of the US Armed Forces into evangelistic recruitment grounds are so bad for this country as to be stunning.
And we're playing right into the hands of the terrorists' arguments.
|
|
| | | 368 | Perm Dude
ID: 2447187 Fri, May 18, 2007, 11:27
|
How bad does it have to be?
I don't think we'll stop these kinds of things if we have a process which allows them to operate this way. The earmark process needs to be done away with or severely restricted.
I don't blame the House Ethics Committee so much--during the last 6 years or so the Republican leadership did away with many of their powers and lowered the standards for review and punishment.
|
|
| | | 369 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, May 18, 2007, 12:53
|
Thats damn near as clearly a "conflict of interest" as can be imagined. If a similarly poisitioned Dem made the same proposal, FOX, our own B, and a host of others would be up in arms over the sheer audacity of the attempt.
|
|
| | | 370 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, May 18, 2007, 15:44
|
NY Times Select May 17, 2007 Who’s Worse, Nixon or Bush? By Jules Witcover WASHINGTON
A favorite pastime of political scientists and pollsters is compiling lists of the best presidents. The results vary widely, as the judgments of history conflict with contemporary sentiments. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and F.D.R. always finish high on the lists, with more controversial choices like Truman and Reagan often thrown in.
Currently, however, we’re seeing an outbreak of consensus on the worst: George W. Bush. The Internet is awash with academic tomes, blogs and partisan rants, the condemnation coming often from liberal Democrats but also from such varied figures as that eminent historian, Donald Trump. Having been in Washington for only 53 years, I cannot from personal exposure espouse the view that the current president is the worst in American history. I have observed only 10 of them since reaching the age of reason, so I can judge only that he is the worst in my adult lifetime.
From World War II to date, there is in my mind and experience only one serious and obvious competitor: Richard Nixon. I say that not simply because he was the first president to resign from office in scandal and disgrace. Well before the Watergate affair that eventually was his undoing, he had compiled a long record of deception, deceit and duplicity.
But the crimes and constitutional breaches of Watergate and Nixon’s obsessive efforts to cover them up went a long way toward immobilizing the executive branch of the government at the critical time when there was a war in Vietnam and great domestic unrest. His successor and ultimate benefactor, Gerald Ford, rightly called the period “our long national nightmare.” Nixon’s sins basically grew from an unquenchable lust for power. He was determined to hold on to what he had and to get more and more of it, contrived through secrecy and an anything-goes political ethic that in time poisoned much of his five-and-a-half-year presidency.
In the end, the damage done to the nation was arrested by a change in the Oval Office with the elevation of Ford, a man of limited imagination and talents but a sense of good will. The adaptability of the American political system, demonstrated in the orderly transference of presidential power, saw Ford and the country through until the people were able to express their preference for a leader in 1976. Importantly, the Watergate nightmare essentially shook America domestically without more than temporarily impairing her relations with the world.
George W. Bush, on the other hand, who ran in 2000 as a unthreatening “compassionate conservative,” soon encountered a crisis and a fateful opportunity that put him on a different mission. He seized on the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to segue from domestic affairs and a legitimate self-defense invasion of Afghanistan to a radical foreign policy of supposedly preventive war in Iraq.
As the Republican presidential nominee in 2000, Bush had vowed in a debate with Democratic nominee Al Gore that he had no interest in seeing America become the world’s policeman, or engaging in nation-building. But now he had suddenly turned into the cop on the beat in Iraq and, soon after, the master builder of democracy in the Middle East.
In a bold display of opportunism, Bush anointed himself as a “war president” who capitalized on a combination of American patriotism and fear to set the nation on its current course. As Zbigniew Brzezinski, the national security adviser in the Carter administration, has written, Bush’s use of the phrase “war on terror” was “a classic self-inflicted wound” that intentionally created “a culture of fear in America,” enabling him to mobilize the public behind his military actions.
This almost overnight plunge into foreign-policy unilateralism, transparently masquerading as a “coalition of the willing” in Iraq, dealt a severe blow to this country’s reputation and support in the international community, effectively built over the previous half century of cooperation and Cold War containment. The whole adventure, compromised by the faulty intelligence used to sell the United Nations and the American people on the invasion of Iraq, was marked by an inept assessment of and inadequate response to the long-term challenge on the ground.
Like Nixon in 1972 winning re-election by feeding off unrest and violence in the streets, Bush in 2004 tapped into post-9/11 fears and appeals to patriotism to gain a second term. Although there is not yet any domestic scandal of Watergate dimensions hanging over him, an odor of incompetence in the management of the war, in the care provided to returning wounded, and in the disarray of his Justice Department stifles the atmosphere for his remaining time in the White House.
With less than two years to go, the incumbent is pressing on with his stay-the-course strategy peddled as something else — a tactical “surge” that he hopes will stave off the growing pressure from the now-Democratic Congress to alter and ultimately end the American involvement in Iraq.
While Bush continues to have the power of the veto with which to combat the Democratic challenge, he is staggering toward the finish line of his presidency. Whatever happens in Iraq, there seems little chance that history will accord him any positive legacy for his eight years of over-reaching in foreign policy and abuse of civil liberties at home.
Nixon’s fall from grace in 1974 cast a heavy shadow over some historic achievements, most notably his opening to China. But his sins, deplorable as they were, mostly concerned domestic matters. They did not leave his party in the hole that Bush’s radical adventurism abroad has dug for the Republicans, and for the country he has so catastrophically led, without any compensating accomplishments akin to Nixon’s, domestic or foreign.
During the Nixon years, I never thought I would see another president who would almost make me wish we had him back. Almost. Thankfully, 21 months from now the voters will have other choices, whatever they turn out be.
|
|
| | | 371 | walk
ID: 259313119 Sun, May 20, 2007, 17:36
|
Résumé of Doom MAUREEN DOWD May 20, 2007
Paul Wolfowitz may be out of a job soon, but think of what an amazing résumé he’ll be shopping around:Work Experience
President of World Bank: 2005-2007
Responsibilities: Reining in European lefties, raining tax-free money on Arab girlfriend, and giving anti-corruption efforts a bad name.
Achievements: Paralyzed the international lending apparatus to the point where small countries had to max out their Visa cards to pay for malaria medicine. Learned the traditions of many cultures, including those of Turkey, where you apparently are not supposed to take off your shoes at mosques to reveal socks so full of holes that both big toes poke blasphemously through.
Deputy Secretary of Defense for President George W. Bush: 2001-2005
Responsibility: Starting a war.
Achievements: Mismanaged the world’s most powerful army. Shattered the system of international diplomacy that kept the peace for 50 years. Undermined the credibility of American intelligence operations. Needlessly brought humankind to the brink of nuclear war. Destroyed Iraq.
Demented Visionary: 1993-2001
Responsibility: Concocting a delusional plan for regime change in Iraq with pals like Shaha Riza, Ahmad Chalabi and his merry band of Iraqi exiles who conjured up phony intelligence about Saddam’s W.M.D.
Achievements: Imagining an Iraq that didn’t exist.
Having Wolfie back on the job market is a tremendous opportunity. What do we want destroyed next? Could this walking curse on the world run Halliburton into the ground?
At the Pentagon, Wolfie tried to help Vice get rid of anything multi — multilateral treaties, multilateral institutions, multilateral alliances, multiculturalism. Multi, to them, meant wobbly, caviling, bureaucratic and obstructionist. Why be multi when you could be uni?
In the end, the forces of multilateralism took their revenge: Old Europe got rid of Wolfie.
But not before his gal pal played the multicultural victim card. In her statement to World Bank directors, Shaha complained that she had been denied promotions even before Wolfie got there. “I can only attribute this to discrimination — not because I am a woman, but because I am a Muslim Arab woman who dares to question the status quo both in the work of the institution and within the institution itself,” Shaha wrote.
She said that she had “met a wonderful American woman who told me that I should fight back for ‘us’: WOMEN. It never occurred to me as an Arab and Muslim woman that one day I would be asked by an American woman to fight on her behalf.”
Already aggrieved, Shaha got really furious when Wolfie came in 2005 and she was told she’d have to work out of the State Department.
“I was ready to pursue legal remedies,” she wrote in her statement, adding, “my life and career were torn asunder.”
According to Xavier Coll, the bank’s human resources vice president, Shaha outlined conditions for her departure that were “unprecedented” in terms of guarantees and rewards and way out of line with bank policy. Mr. Coll deemed it “inappropriate and imprudent for the president to offer Ms. Riza these terms.”
Bob Bennett, Wolfie’s lawyer, told Michael Hirsh of Newsweek that it was Shaha who “worked up the numbers” on a $60,000 raise to a $193,590 salary and cushy new deal. “She was outraged that she had to leave,” Mr. Bennett said.
The self-righteous Shaha played on Wolfie’s guilt, becoming “greedy in terms of power,” as a friend of the couple told Newsweek. Even though she had been a mere flack a few years ago and then a gender coordinator at the bank, Shaha mau-maued her man into giving her a salary that topped the secretary of state’s.
It’s like when Bill Clinton tells friends that he has to work hard to get Hillary elected president because he feels he owes her for bringing her to Arkansas in the 70s and interrupting her career. (But do we?)
Or when Tony Soprano gets Carmela some fancy piece of jewelry after he strays. Indeed, Wolfie sounded Sopranoish when he agitatedly told Mr. Coll to warn those at the bank he believed were attacking him: “If they $%#! with me or Shaha, I have enough on them to $%#! them, too.”
Wolfie used public compensation for private contrition. Gilt for guilt — not a good deal.
|
|
| | |
| | | 373 | Perm Dude
ID: 286121810 Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 14:44
|
Sweet!
|
|
| | | 374 | walk
ID: 75112114 Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 15:06
|
I dunno which was the better, the "I'm not gay!" denial or Delay's logic about how we would not have illegal immigrants if abortion were illegal.
- walk
|
|
| | | 375 | Perm Dude
ID: 286121810 Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 15:30
|
Yeah, apparently all those babies would be in the fields picking fruit, building decks with under-the-table money, and watching the children of the well-off.
Damn those liberals--they've gone and restricted DeLay's day laborer choices. And they claim to be about "choice." Ha!
|
|
| | |
| | | 377 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 13:50
|
DeLay linking immigration and abortion was seriously worthy of a big gigantic legit LOL, because, that's what i did. now, my entire office is cracking up over this video.
i'd like to know what Jag and Boxman think about the link between abortion and immigration, as expressed in the above linked video by Walk...
the Log Cabin Republican was a riot too...
|
|
| | | 378 | walk
ID: 75112114 Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 14:21
|
I hearya Tree.
"I have this knee problem, no asthma, no but I have this medical condition...but we have to fight them there cos otherwise we'd be fighting them here."
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
- walk
|
|
| | | 379 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Thu, Jul 19, 2007, 14:26
|
"well, like, i mean, everyone has, of course, you know, well, thought about, you know, with the opposite, i mean, well, the same, you know, we've all thought about having sex with the same sex, oh, but yea, um, i prayed to god a lot, i mean, a LOT, and because of that, i know that i'm not, well, you know, gay, and stuff. i'm sure of it."
|
|
| | | 380 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 13:38
|
|
|
| | | 381 | Tree
ID: 396503017 Mon, Jul 30, 2007, 22:23
|
Will the G.O.P. Say No to YouTube?
The Rudy Giuliani campaign has cited scheduling conflicts in saying it will skip the Republican version of this week's Democratic debate, while Mitt Romney has mocked the seriousness of the questions and also seems likely to withdraw. John McCain, one of two candidates who had agreed to participate (Ron Paul is the other), has also expressed doubts about the Democratic debate's level of decorum and aides say he may reconsider his commitment. Undeclared candidate Fred Thompson may still not officially be in the race by the event's Sept. 17 airdate.
The Republicans' sudden aversion has political observers wondering whether abandoning an opportunity to participate in the fledging format shows a potentially costly reluctance to engage with voters or is simply an exercise in prudent message management.
to me, it shows Republican reluctance to embrace something new, and to embrace something that is the main stream.
|
|
| | | 382 | Perm Dude
ID: 156523010 Mon, Jul 30, 2007, 23:18
|
FBI & IRS search Ted Stevens' home
If the cesspool that is Alaskan Republican politics is a bit murky for some, TPM has a rundown here.
The self-destruction continues.
|
|
| | | 383 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Tue, Jul 31, 2007, 08:01
|
i'd like to know what Jag and Boxman think about the link between abortion and immigration, as expressed in the above linked video by Walk...
It's silly and so is the video.
Let's look at this objectively. If there were 40 million extra Americans added to the labor pool, the need for illegal immigrant labor would be less. I would imagine that a small portion of those people might do the "jobs that no one else wants to do", but there's no way they take up all of it. Americans don't raise their kids to go and pick vegetables for a living. If they did, there wouldn't be a need for illegal immigrant labor in the first place.
I DO think that it might help us create more engineers and business owners though.
Then again we'll never know provided the abortionists still have their way with things.
|
|
| | | 384 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Tue, Jul 31, 2007, 11:34
|
Makes sense to me
Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) believes it is imperative that no member under federal investigation be involved in the oversight or appropriations of any agency involved in investigating that member. Sen. Stevens should immediately step down from his position on the Appropriations subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies.
Melanie Sloan, executive director of CREW, said today, "Senators should follow the lead of their House colleagues and require anyone whose property has been searched in connection with a criminal probe to relinquish his plum committee post. Senator Stevens, who sits on the subcommittee responsible for funding the Justice Department, which is conducting a probe into his potentially criminal activities, should immediately resign his position on the Appropriations committee."
|
|
| | | 385 | Perm Dude
ID: 528171923 Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 00:48
|
Senate Republicans: The Filibuster Kings.
They killed off three more today:
-A voting House member for the District of Columbia (Taxation Without Representation anyone?)
-Sen Webb's proposal to change troop rotation schedules (half in combat, half out)
-Habeas corpus for enemy combatants ("They hate us for our freedoms." Oops, your freedoms are suspended during wartime.)
Where are those Republicans who were vilifying Democrats for their threatened filibusters? How about the "Let them vote!" calls from just a couple of years ago. Chickensh!ts.
|
|
| | | 386 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 01:03
|
-A voting House member for the District of Columbia (Taxation Without Representation anyone?) A 4th representative for Utah was also a part of that bill. Since that rep would almost assuredly be a Republican, it would have been a wash.
|
|
| | | 387 | Perm Dude
ID: 528171923 Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 01:40
|
I'd forgotten that was included. Makes it seem even worse!
|
|
| | | 388 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 508501922 Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 07:59
|
The Constitution and Voting Representation for the District of Columbia
July 26, 2007
The Heritage Foundation
...
Proposals for Reform
Lawmakers have several alternatives they can consider that are not so problematic and unconstitutional as S. 1257. While there may be drawbacks to these solutions, lawmakers would be wise to closely examine them before rushing to adopt the seriously flawed proposal now before them.
Propose an Amendment. Congress could propose a similar amendment, perhaps using the 1978 proposal noted earlier as a model. Adding such representation directly to the Constitution would by definition avoid running afoul of the nation's highest law. In addition, the amendment solution would remain true to the Founders' intention that the capital city remain subject to the "exclusive legislation" of Congress—even as it grants the city's residents a say in that legislation. For many purposes this would treat the District as if it were a state granted representation in Congress, but it would seem to require unanimous consent of every state if it sought to provide representation in the Senate (per Article V).
Grant Statehood. Congress could grant statehood to the District upon its application, automatically providing it a representative and two senators. Such a plan might require a constitutional amendment since Congress is granted "exclusive legislation" over the nation's capital. Such a plan would also run counter to the still reasonable intent of the Founders to have a national capital outside the influence of state politics.
Retrocede to Maryland. Congress could return, or "retrocede," residential portions of the District to Maryland, allowing residents to vote as citizens of that state. Though such a move would be fraught with practical considerations, it would not be unprecedented, as Congress returned those portions of the city south of the Potomac River to Virginia in 1846. The constitutionality of retrocession is hardly settled, though. The Supreme Court avoided ruling directly on the Virginia retrocession, and Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy argued in the early 1960s that such a plan would be unconstitutional.[13]
Allow Voting in Maryland. Congress could consider allowing District residents to vote as if they were residents of Maryland or some other state. While such a plan would give city residents a say in Congressional elections and would not affect the District's status under the Constitution, it would suffer from a number of practical considerations. It may also face Constitutional challenges.
End Federal Taxation. Given its exclusive power over the District, Congress could abolish federal income taxes on District residents, providing a powerful solution to the city's "taxation without representation" complaint. This is a reasonable compromise and fully within Congress's powers. Other non-voting territories, like Puerto Rico, do not pay federal income taxes for similar reasons.
Change of Residence. It should be noted that District residents—unlike the American colonists, who had little choice in the face of British denial of representation—have always had the option to move to other U.S. jurisdictions, like Maryland or Virginia, where they could enjoy full representation in Congress. While this might not be preferable or immediately affordable to all District residents, it remains a simple and unobjectionable option.
...
|
|
| | | 389 | Perm Dude
ID: 39858209 Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 10:58
|
Love that last argument: Well, you can always move! And the option is "unobjectionable" (!)
I should probably go down the list with counterarguments, but the last one of theirs shows that they are just making up sh!t. (or, perhaps they never heard of the debating maxim to finish with your strongest argument).
There are some constitutional issues that arise, but I don't believe, on its face, that the proposal was unconstitutional (and, in any case, SCOTUS would have the last say on that). To argue that the legislation would conflict with cherry-picked "constitutional analysis" isn't the same as saying it is "unconstitutional."
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 392 | walk
ID: 2530286 Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 09:39
|
The Presidential Election Reform Act
Obviously the republicans would disagree with Herbert's opinion, but I don't. To me, this is common sense: every state should be treated consistently in how electoral votes are allocated. To arbitrarily choose one state, the state with the most electoral votes, that is projected to go to the opposition party and divide up the electoral votes based on districts, is transparently an effort to favor the potential losing party. If, however, this was/is the way it is done in every state, and done consistently, then fair is fair. I know this is done in Nebraska and I believe one other state with very few electoral votes. I don't see the California voters passing this law if & when it gets on the ballot next year, but it could, and if it does, it just wreaks of cheating.
|
|
| | |
| | | 394 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 17:02
|
A Republican would have to be crazy to touch on race issues. Liberals will misquote, take items out of context and blast the word prejudice, over and over. You can not talk about race with a Liberal, unless you just say Whitey is bad, everything is the White man's fault and all other races, religions and nationalities take no responsibilities for their actions.
|
|
| | | 395 | Perm Dude
ID: 5093716 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 17:28
|
Riiiight. Republicans don't take their arguments to Hispanics or blacks because they are afraid of liberals.
I suspect you are more afraid that your politics sucks.
|
|
| | | 396 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 17:55
|
I know my politics are right on target. The tactics of you and your Liberals friends is what sucks. I notice you didn't even try to deny the tactics I outlined.
|
|
| | | 397 | Perm Dude
ID: 5093716 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 18:19
|
There is no reason to deny what is only in your head, since you self-justify it all. It doesn't matter if you are just making it all up or not--you believe it to be true.
|
|
| | | 398 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 18:28
|
I guess denile is not just a river in Egypt.
|
|
| | | 399 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 19:03
|
An example of tactics approved by Jag
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. security contractor Blackwater was involved in at least 195 shooting incidents in Iraq since 2005, said a congressional report on Monday that also panned the State Department's oversight of the company. State Department contractor Blackwater, under investigation for the shooting deaths of 11 Iraqis on September 16, will answer questions about that incident and others at what is expected to be a testy congressional hearing on Tuesday.
In a shooting incident on December 24, 2006, a security guard for Iraqi Vice President Adel Abdul-Mahdi was killed by an allegedly drunken Blackwater contractor, who was then flown out of the country and faced no charges, the memorandum said. ...................... E-mail traffic from the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad back to Washington described Iraq concerns over the incident.
"Iraqis would not understand how a foreigner could kill an Iraqi and return a free man to his own country," it said.
The State Department's charge d'affaires recommended Blackwater pay $250,000 and give an "apology." Waxman noted the State Department's diplomatic security said that was too much and would cause Iraqis to "try to get killed." Eventually Blackwater agreed on a $15,000 payment.
In another incident where Blackwater shooters killed an "innocent Iraqi," Waxman said the State Department requested only a $5,000 payment to "put this unfortunate matter behind us quickly."
If not for the liberal Waxman, the murder of Iraqi citizens will continue with impunity, just like Jag wants it.
|
|
| | | 400 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 19:09
|
What does that have to do with why Republicans and black debate.
|
|
| | | 401 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 19:11
|
PV - Master of the non-sequitor.....
|
|
| | | 402 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 19:15
|
Nothing. I just thought a mindless, generic attack based on partisan labels was a good idea at the time.
|
|
| | | 403 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 19:18
|
The shooter was probably a Liberal.
|
|
| | | 404 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 19:21
|
I think you mean shooter(s).
|
|
| | | 405 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 10:32
|
Bush vetoes bi-partisan insurance bill
WASHINGTON - President Bush, in a confrontation with Congress, on Wednesday vetoed a bipartisan bill that would have dramatically expanded children's health insurance.
It was only the fourth veto of Bush's presidency, and one that some Republicans feared could carry steep risks for their party in next year's elections. The Senate approved the bill with enough votes to override the veto, but the margin in the House fell short of the required number.
4 vetoes in 7 years???????????? Just out of curiosity, can anyone name the 4 bills he vetoed? (This one, is a "gimme".)
|
|
| | | 406 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 10:42
|
It was a bad bill and I am glad it was vetoed. I am all for healthcare for impoverished children or for castastrophic illnesses that can bankrupt a family, but from what I hear the bill covered those already covered by insurance.
|
|
| | | 407 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 10:52
|
You call it a "bad bill" and are "glad" it was vetoed, yet you have done no research on it??????
|
|
| | | 408 | Seattle Zen
ID: 86541617 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 10:58
|
I think this sums it up perfectly
|
|
| | | 409 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 10:59
|
LOL, SZ, great find. Agreed.
|
|
| | | 410 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 11:11
|
If I have misspoken please educate me. Does the bill only cover inpoverished and catatrophic illnesses?
|
|
| | | 411 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 11:14
|
My typing today is horrendous.
|
|
| | | 412 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 11:19
|
Impoverished children are already covered by Medicaid.
CHIP's programs provide for children without health insurance whose parent(s) make too much to qualify for Medicaid, but can't afford regular health insurance.
|
|
| | | 413 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 11:20
|
the "working poor" to quote an overused phrase. (I know of families, paying close to $900/m for group medical health insurance via their respective employers. THAT, is an absolutely RIDICULOUS monthly sum on top of everything else.)
|
|
| | | 414 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 11:32
|
I double checked and it does not cover those already insured, Bush was saying it would encourage those with insurance to drop it. I am not sure which side of the fence I am on with this issue.
|
|
| | | 415 | Perm Dude
ID: 57943310 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 12:50
|
That's true. The whole program was meant to cover, essentially, the working poor.
But since nearly all of the working poor (and even the not so poor) obtain whatever health insurance they have through their job, what Bush is essentially saying is that a lot of people will quit working if the government becomes too generous in helping their children's health insurance costs. I don't doubt that we can find some anecdotal evidence of this (you find find an anecdote about anything), this seems to me to be a particularly specious argument for Bush to be making.
To say that the government should stand aside in the hopes that they aren't taking some business away from insurance companies when we are taking about poor children's health really highlights the problem we have with health care access in this country. Is Bush's stance really the way we want to prioritize this issue? Particularly given the overspending the government does elsewhere, the extra money on children's health care (which reduces health care costs later) would seem to be well-spent.
pd
|
|
| | | 416 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 13:29
|
#415, PD, well said...
|
|
| | | 417 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 13:30
|
Here comes Sarge with the price controls again. If it isn't the cost of a widget at Wal-Mart it's the cost of health insurance.
I know of families, paying close to $900/m for group medical health insurance via their respective employers. THAT, is an absolutely RIDICULOUS monthly sum on top of everything else.
How much would be an acceptable amount for them to pay then?
PD: The whole program was meant to cover, essentially, the working poor.
Are you sure?
President Vetoes Children's Health Insurance Bill
The president has said that the 61-cent tax on each pack of cigarettes to pay for the measure is regressive, and the government should not be providing health care to families whose income is as much as $80,000 a year. He also expressed concern that the offer of low-cost, government-provided health care will encourage many people who already are covered by private insurance to switch, adding considerable strain to the government system.
80K per year is "working poor"?
|
|
| | | 418 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 13:46
|
According to Carolyn Ingram, director of NM's Medical Assistance Division, a family in New Mexico would have to have eight children to qualify for SCHIP with that much income.
According to that article, the program intends to cover families, dependant on size, in the $22,839 to $40,356 range.
Anytime someone has cite rare and extreme cases to shoot down a proposal, you know they aren't interested in having people take an honest look at it.
|
|
| | | 419 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 13:48
|
Anytime someone has cite rare and extreme cases to shoot down a proposal, you know they aren't interested in having people take an honest look at it.
So why not reintroduce the bill to truly cover only the working poor?
|
|
| | | 420 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 13:59
|
Sometimes Box, I'm amazed at your simplicity.
Here comes Sarge with the price controls again. If it isn't the cost of a widget at Wal-Mart it's the cost of health insurance.
I know of families, paying close to $900/m for group medical health insurance via their respective employers. THAT, is an absolutely RIDICULOUS monthly sum on top of everything else.
How much would be an acceptable amount for them to pay then?
900 x 12 - $10,800 annually, out of NET pay. Add 12k annual for housing costs, 5k for car payment, and we're at 27,800 out-go, w/o having paid a single utility bill, bought a single grocery item, obtained even 1 gal of gas, paid the car insurance, etc etc etc.
11k yr for insurance, isnt insurance. Its prepaid medical, w/o first having had to be billed.
In response to your question though, IMHO:
300/m for 1 person 450/m for a couple 600/m for a family
THOSE, are "insurance" premiums vs "pre paid" medical expenses.
|
|
| | | 421 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 14:01
|
The point of the bill it to help families who are just above the cutoff point for medical assistance. A family with 8 kids earning $80k, while being a rare example, certainly could legitimately need that type of assistance.
|
|
| | | 422 | Perm Dude
ID: 57943310 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 15:15
|
#417: Yes, I am sure. The $80K argument is either a lie (if Bush knows anything about the program) or an example of Bush just talking without knowing anything about the program. This FactCheck article lays it out pretty well, I think.
As for the private insurance argument, I'm happy to concede that some people might drop their private insurance for the government one. Some people will do anything. The point of CHIP is to provide efficient health care for the maximum number of otherwise uninsured children, at a critical time in their lives. Proper health care now will reduce their health care costs later (including costs covered by their later insurance companies). A healthier group of people increases long-term profits for insurance companies, but they seem to be worried about the very tiny number of people who might not otherwise purchase private insurance.
In fact, the President called the crowd-out effect "unacceptable" which pretty much tells you where he stands on the issue. Nowhere, in fact, since there already exists a crowd-out effect as the legislation currently exists, which he has indicated he would renew (that it, he would renew S-CHIP if there is no expansion in services. But the current law already has the "unacceptable" effect of crowd-out).
|
|
| | | 423 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 15:56
|
I am reading the posts here and i am tring to figure out why the bill got vetoed. i can not even see any upside for bush. sometimes i think bush secretly wants to sabatoge the Replican party.
i mean personally i think it would have been better to raise the tax on cigerrettes to $2 and then cover all children then all arguements would be mute. then again i guess if you raised $2 on cigerettes people might actaully quit smoking and then there would be no money for the health care, but with that said healthcare costs would go down if no one smoked.
|
|
| | | 424 | biliruben
ID: 17502215 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 16:05
|
It's simple, boikin. We elected a president, twice, that hates government. Hates it with such a white hot passion that he is willing to burn down the existing government, bankrupt the country and then sell it's charged remains to his buddies in private industry for pennies on the dollar.
Why would someone like that let things move the other direction, ever, if he could stop it, mo matter how much it made sense?
Why we elected someone to lead our government that despises that very institution, I leave as an exercise to reader.
|
|
| | | 425 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 16:19
|
well that seems a little excessive, i wonder if i can get in on the fire sale....haha
|
|
| | | 426 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 17:02
|
depends...did you buy Haliburton stock?
|
|
| | | 427 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 19:48
|
Sarge: With your price controls would you index them for inflation?
|
|
| | | 428 | J-Bar
ID: 0914320 Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 23:00
|
can we get some real numbers for the sake of debate
health insurance for me and my children (3) costs me less than $150.00 per month through my employer.
Anybody else care to share for the sake of the conversation.
just did an einsurance price qoute for my hh and price ranged from 182 to 630 per month with ded ranging from $500 to $5000.
|
|
| | | 429 | Perm Dude
ID: 57943310 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 00:07
|
The FactCheck article I linked to in 424 gives the information about the coverage and the costs. Comparing your costs to this program isn't a fari comparison, as the programs are qualitatively different.
|
|
| | | 430 | J-Bar
ID: 0914320 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 00:27
|
i didn't see any specifics on the coverage of the program or the costs to the government for that coverage. i may be too tired.
|
|
| | | 431 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 06:09
|
J-Bar: My family pays $100 per month for family coverage.
|
|
| | | 432 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 08:56
|
health insurance for me and my children (3) costs me less than $150.00 per month through my employer.
My family pays $100 per month for family coverage.
must be nice.
for my company's "low plan", i pay 80 bucks a month for insuring only myself. if i had the "high plan", i'd pay 135 bucks a month.
and the costs to insure my whole family (if i had one)? $475 on the low plan, and $625 on the high plan.
granted, i feel my company stiffs us a bit on the plan, but you guys have excellent plans.
i'm willing to bet that a lot of our country's "working poor" work for companies that don't exactly give the greatest of insurance benefits.
|
|
| | | 433 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 09:03
|
I pay $500/month for me and my spouse and two kids through my company's plan. It's a managed care plan that allows me to see any doc I want. If I see one in the network, United Healthcare, I get 90% coverage; out of network = 70% coverage. $500 deductibles for all family members. I also set aside several thousand a year in a tax-free reimbursement account, so that I can use tax-free $ to pay my share of the medical bills.
|
|
| | | 434 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 09:09
|
Again, the cost to the insurees are not the same as the cost of the health care. CHIP covers, for example, almost all drugs, checkups, operations, and procedures, with no deductables or out-of-pocket costs. It is a much different program.
PDF of some of the coverage costs are here from the CBO.
|
|
| | | 435 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 09:14
|
I have UHC also. Pay something like $180/mo for my wife and I. Same coverege as Walk I think.
|
|
| | | 436 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 09:22
|
einsurance quotes for my wife and I ranged $534 - $1335. The range was the same for smokers and non-smokers.
|
|
| | | 437 | Myboyjack
ID: 3911311 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 09:44
|
I don't get insurance through my "employer". Too expensive.
I have a private policy through Anthem that covers myself and my two kids. Cost: $223.00 per month. My employer then gives me an HRA plans that has covered all my co-pays over the years. My employer also reimburses me for what they would have paid to cover me alone on their plan - an amouint that exceeds the cost of me privately insuring me and my kids combined.
Actual cost to me: $0.00
My wife pays $110.00 a month through her employer for her insurance.
Total insurance cost for family of 4: $110.00.
|
|
| | | 438 | biliruben
ID: 17502215 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 13:14
|
That's a sweet-ass price.
Who the hell is Anthem, and how do they make money?
|
|
| | | 439 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 13:34
|
Googled "Anthem Insurance". It appears to a member of BCBS. Went for a quote to see their rates where I am;
for me alone, a 10k deductible is 232/m premium. A 250 deductible and the premium rises to 708/m...just for covering me. A 2500 ded, is a monthly prem of 442. No thanks.
|
|
| | | 440 | J-Bar
ID: 23913411 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 13:58
|
Thanks ev1, Sarge I am not sure how old you are but I am sure that it may play into it. Again though you are making the choice to not have catastrophic coverage. I did not see any that were way crazy but still these are choices that we make when we accepted the position.
PD- you are correct that health care costs and the premium for insurance are 2 different things but the choice to be insured is just like the choice for that 2nd or 3rd vehicle or wife staying home to care for children or the numerous other choices that are made in how we run our lives.
Example of reason I feel expansion of the program is not a good thing. 2 weeks ago in emergency room with my son for stiches (auto wreck) and lady comes in on Sunday with a child 2 to 3 and the baby was on medicaid (saw the card) during our conversation she states that her daughter had the sniffles and she didn't want to bother with going and waiting at the pediatrician's office on Monday since the ER was empty. Our visit was appr. $2800 and from what I could gather from my bill for normal charges her was probably $500 to $700 for a $100 pedi visit tomorrow.(because she could and there was no ramifications).
If we expand the current program then I feel that more children will be under the umbrella than not and then the ol' most are already may as well make it everyone logic is used. IMO
|
|
| | | 441 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 14:14
|
I think those premiiums are insane.
I havent been in the hospital, in over 20 years. My medical bills over the past 15 years, dont add upto 10 grand. At 440/m, thats 5k/yr, plus 2500 for deductibles, plus 20% for co-pay. I'm 50, but far too healthy to pay those kinds of premiums.
|
|
| | | 442 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 14:47
|
|
|
| | | 443 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 15:31
|
but the choice to be insured is just like the choice for that 2nd or 3rd vehicle or wife staying home to care for children or the numerous other choices that are made in how we run our lives.
This is a joke, right? We're talking about the health of children, amond prople who are making (in almost all cases) 200% of the poverty line and below.
Choosing to not have health insurance is a recipe for the poor health that children of those families are having. If you don't think that saps productivity, lives, and the value of life you are just a pretend Republican.
|
|
| | | 444 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 15:58
|
the choice to be insured is just like the choice for that 2nd or 3rd vehicle or wife staying home to care for children or the numerous other choices that are made in how we run our lives.
holy crap, that is one damned ignorant thing to say. there is plenty of evidence that a lack of insurance contributes to things like ill health and shorter lifespans.
it is hardly comparable to a second car or having a two-person household income...
|
|
| | | 445 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:12
|
Fat people and smokers (in that order) are why our insurance and health care costs are so high. In the general, the people who "can't afford health insurance" are more likely to be fat and more likely to smoke.
Address that issue and I'll get interested.
Unless the government is willing to address these choices, it'll never be able to provide for reasonable health insurance rates (ie., the rate they tax everyone to care for unhealthy people).
|
|
| | | 446 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:23
|
I think you are largely right, MBJ. Bad choices do make for bad health consequences (and most insurance companies are giving those choices real associated costs so that those who make healthy choices can get the benefits (like good drivers, I suppose).
But while there might be fat children, and smoking children, this is largely off the table when talking about CHIP. In fact, it has been my contention that proper health insurance leads to healthier choices later (which, in fact, leads to lower insurance costs in later life).
[Also, this doesn't make insurance itself a choice, of course]
|
|
| | | 447 | biliruben
ID: 17502215 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:29
|
End of life care is where the dollars are spent.
Children's health is practically free, in the overall scheme of things.
Just fickin' pay for all of them so they everyone's on an even playing field in the game of capitalism we so love.
|
|
| | | 448 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:31
|
CHIP kids are less healthy than children without health insurance. Additionally, they make a lot of unnecessary thips to the emergency room.
The issue of the the disassociation of cost from benefit is hardly "off the table" with CHIP. It's the problem with CHIP and other programs of its ilk. That's why I brought up the problem with American obesity being our #1 cost problem right now.
|
|
| | | 450 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:39
|
Children's health is practically free, in the overall scheme of things.
It's also practically free to privately insure kids. People choose to have cable TV, eat at McDonalds twice a day and buy cigaretts and not have insurance on their kids.
Giving them a CHIP card won't make their kids healthier. Forcing them to be accountable for the health of their kids and the health choices they make might.
|
|
| | | 451 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:42
|
Additionally, they make a lot of unnecessary thips to the emergency room.
With no preventative care, this is true of all under- or non-insured, MBJ. In fact, for this group, a large percentage of their health care is strictly through the emergency room.
CHIP kids are less healthy than children without health insurance.
In the same income levels? This seems, at best, counterintuitive. So health insurance paid by the government results in less healthy kids than insurance paid by a private insurance company?
I do agree completely on the obesity problem, which dogs people their entire lives, drives up the cost of insurance (and taxes) for the rest of us, and (as noted above) saps productivity, lives, and life value. This is why insuring kids (particularly in this group) is a good thing.
|
|
| | | 452 | biliruben
ID: 17502215 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:42
|
Human nature being what it is, there is always gonna be some crappy parents making some decisions that are bad for their kids. That's life.
The question is: should we as a society try and correct for that and give the child a better chance of being a productive member of society when they grow up.
|
|
| | | 453 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 16:49
|
In the same income levels? This seems, at best, counterintuitive. So health insurance paid by the government results in less healthy kids than insurance paid by a private insurance company?
Actually, I said without health insurance.
The question is: should we as a society try and correct for that and give the child a better chance of being a productive member of society when they grow up.
Absolutely. Absolving their parents from responsibilty doesn't seem to make the kids healthier. It does seem to drive up the cost of getting health care for all of us.
|
|
| | | 454 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 17:06
|
It is hardly and either/or, MBJ. While there is a crowdout of about 30% or so, providing health insurance to kids who currently don't have it isn't absolving their parents of anything. What it will certainly do for many of them is given them *some* interface with health coverage that isn't from an emergency room as a result of problems that could have been prevented.
|
|
| | | 455 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 17:11
|
BTW, Hilary Clinton's latest health plan (called, by Republicans, "Mitt Romney's Health Plan") would essentially move the uninsured (children & adults) into some kind of managed health care plan. This would eliminate CHIP, of course, but it would also inject some kind of preventative care into those families.
|
|
| | | 456 | J-Bar
ID: 14461512 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 18:16
|
thanks MBJ for helping in the choice argument.
PD-"Choosing to not have health insurance is a recipe for the poor health that children of those families are having."
Again that is that their CHOICE, i thought most of you guys were pro-choice yuk yuk don't melt down just a joke.
I like how the argument is trying to make it seem like I am against the safety net and that is not true since i work for the safety net. my argument is only the size that the safety net has to be. i believe that health care is important but even if you do not have catastrophic insurance most states have a medicaid program with spend-down elements to keep families from going 6 figures in the hole for an unforeseen medical issue with a child such as Sarge's parents. I was not a real proponent of CHIP when it was at 150% but I understood the reason for and was fine with it.
And for all those that think this is just a money issue let me tell you that a group of about 15%-20% didn't even pay the $25 per month to insure all their kids and were ultimately denied CHIP. again i say it is choice and i am not a fan of legislating good parenting like billi.
|
|
| | | 457 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 18:33
|
No, apparently you'd prefer society leave those children to rot, because they were unfortunate "losers" in the genetic lottery and were born unto incapable adults.
Tell me, when was the last time you encountered a newborn, who had CHOSEN its parents?
|
|
| | | 458 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 18:34
|
btw...457 is not an implication that all poor adults are incapable parents. But rather is a direct refutation of J-Bars insistance that bad parenting is apparently a choice made by the parent.
|
|
| | | 459 | J-bar
ID: 2095417 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 19:21
|
. But rather is a direct refutation of J-Bars insistance that bad parenting is apparently a choice made by the parent.
Does this make sense or is it just me? Isn't bad parenting a choice by the parents.
Sarge are you just wanting to argue because society has already implemented many programs to try and save children from bad parenting. Apparently you feel that a family of 4 making 45,000 a year are bad parents because they choose to pay as you go (the same as you) rather than have health insurance on their children.
|
|
| | | 460 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 21:23
|
#456: I think this is a valid point. What the states are grappling with (and remember, the states are the ones adminsitering the program) is that the "poverty level" doesn't change with family size. So a family with one child at the poverty line might be in one situation while another family with 3 kids but at 120% of the poverty line might even be in a more difficult position of affording health insurance for their kids.
The thing is, the bill passed (and the current legislation) gives the government the discretion to disallow the states from setting the bar too high.
My own belief is that these programs can certainly be more needs-based, by refusing children currently covered by a health plan (or children covered within the 90 days previously, to prevent people from just dropping coverage to immediately get free health care for their kids). We can also eliminate kids who have their health covered by another party (like a well-off relative).
This does add a not-unsubstantial cost to the program, however, in setting the bar that way and verifying eligibility. If accompanied by a greater effort and covering the truly needy, however, this might be the trade-off to make.
In any case, as benefits this thread title, this topic is a real loss for Republicans. No matter how "right" they are on the issue, cutting off poor children's health insurance is surely not going to help the GOP win votes. And many in the GOP are a little pissed that this is coming up right now.
|
|
| | | 461 | J-Bar
ID: 2095417 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 21:45
|
so unless you pander to the soundbite then you lose. gotta love the political climate that we are in.
we used to have a program that would actually pay the insurance premium at the place of employment as opposed to the medicaid premium if advantageous to the state. i thought that this was a better way of helping the 'working poor' insure their children without getting further involved into the nuances of healthcare. unsure if this is still available in texas or not.
|
|
| | | 462 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 21:53
|
Politically, cutting vetoing a program like CHIP (particularly given the factual inaccuracies made while doing it) is poor politics, indeed. It isn't all about soundbites, but it is about framing your points with facts and presenting them in a timely manner. Bush did neither.
|
|
| | | 463 | Perm Dude
ID: 529947 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 21:55
|
No joke, here's the logo for the Republican Convention:
|
|
| | | 464 | J-Bar
ID: 2095417 Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 22:47
|
throwback logo
|
|
| | | 465 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 10:51
|
re 459:
Isn't bad parenting a choice by the parents.
Define bad parenting, precisely. Its a subjective term. YOUR definition of "bad" and anothers, may well be different. (Apart from some obvious extreme examples of course.)
You apparently maintain that failing to carry Health Insurance, is a "bad parenting" choice being made. I maintain, that in more cases than you wouold be willing to admit, its a choice between that and having adequate food on the table.
|
|
| | | 466 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 11:33
|
Chalk me up to being a bad parent, since there is no health insurance for me or my kids, even though I could probably bite the bullet and afford it.
But why?
At almost $700 a month, plus the co-pays that accompany each doctor visit, it seems financially irresponsibe for me and my two minor children.
When we need to go to the doctor, we go and I pay cash. This year I have paid roughly $1200 in medical bills and prescriptions. That's less than what two months of health insurance would cost.
|
|
| | | 467 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 11:58
|
Agreed PV. At current price levels, I have said before and will maintain...it isnt "insurance". Its pre-paying bills, you havent incurred. IOW, I can liquidate a LOT of medical expenses, with that $700/m the insurance company(s) want from me.
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 470 | J-Bar
ID: 2095417 Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 14:31
|
Sarge, you were the one stating that it was bad parenting hahahaha amazing
|
|
| | | 471 | J-Bar
ID: 2095417 Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 14:36
|
PV your case is exactly what I was referring to that each family makes choices and because you don't have carry the insurance does not mean the govt needs to come in and save your children. Please re-read my posts and you will see that i have been the one discussing choice and somehow Sarge's direct refutation brought in bad parenting
|
|
| | | 472 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 14:45
|
from post 456:
...again i say it is choice and i am not a fan of legislating good parenting like billi.
If you're taking the position that this is "legislating good parenting", then the supporting posture is that not doing this absent legislation, is "bad" parenting.
Your words, and their common meanings.
|
|
| | | 473 | J-Bar
ID: 14461512 Fri, Oct 05, 2007, 15:33
|
Stmt from 456 direct response to 452
i guess i should have put qoutes around good parenting so that you could see that i was addressing billi's post i thought saying in response to billi was enough.
|
|
| | |
| | | 475 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Oct 19, 2007, 12:19
|
Not that it helps any of those who will be directly affected by this Congressional failure, but I see a HUGE election defeat looming for the GOP.
Can we say...70% Dem House/Senate?
|
|
| | | 476 | Perm Dude
ID: 6952237 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 10:28
|
A simple question to the President.
Reminds me of Ted Kennedy flubbing on "Why do you want to be President?" You'd have thought he handlers would have prepared him.
|
|
| | | 477 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 11:52
|
Stereo-typical political-speak. Not unlike, IMHO his lowest moment, Pres Clinton saying something to the affect of, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"
|
|
| | | 478 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 12:44
|

Yes, let's ignore the fact that the American public is overwhelmingly against the war that each of us completely supports, oh, shut up, Ron. It takes a lot out of you to constantly repeat, "FEAR, TERRORISTS, SEPT. 11th, FEAR!" Yeah, we are tired of defending ourselves from those who believe that false "theory" of evolution, let's gather 'round the one issue we all share...
|
|
| | | 479 | Perm Dude
ID: 6952237 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 14:20
|
Cheney's Law should be required viewing for all patriots.
|
|
| | |
| | | 481 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 15:41
|
I watched it on sunday and it was a pretty interesting Frontline episode. It might have been use full for the dems to piont out just how crazy cheney was when he got the VP nomination.
|
|
| | | 482 | Perm Dude
ID: 6952237 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 15:43
|
I think he only became crazy realized when he had a maliable President (who, coincidently, values loyalty over everything else).
|
|
| | | 483 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 17:14
|
yeah i guess you dont seem as crazy when people do not listen to your advice.
|
|
| | | 484 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Tue, Oct 23, 2007, 17:35
|
I think Cheney's presence, is the primary reason shrub hasnt been impeached. NOBODY, wants Cheney sitting in the oval Office as President.
|
|
| | | 485 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Wed, Oct 24, 2007, 00:21
|
Redstate.com bans Ron Paul posts
Effective immediately, new users may *not* shill for Ron Paul in any way shape, form or fashion. Not in comments, not in diaries, nada. If your account is less than 6 months old, you can talk about something else, you can participate in the other threads and be your zany libertarian self all you want, but you cannot pimp Ron Paul. Those with accounts more than six months old may proceed as normal.
Now, I could offer a long-winded explanation for *why* this new policy is being instituted, but I'm guessing that most of you can probably guess. Unless you lack the self-awareness to understand just how annoying, time-consuming, and bandwidth-wasting responding to the same idiotic arguments from a bunch of liberals pretending to be Republicans can be. Which, judging by your comment history, you really don't understand, so allow me to offer an alternate explanation: we are a bunch of fascists and we're upset that you've discovered where we keep the black helicopters, so we're silencing you in an attempt to keep you from warning the rest of your brethren so we can round you all up and send you to re-education camps all at once.
Hard to tell where the serious ends and the kidding begins.
|
|
| | |
| | | 487 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Oct 24, 2007, 14:02
|
I Podhoretz call to bomb Iran
This person, who lives near me (uh-oh) is one of Rudy's foreign policy advisors. If Rudy is elected, it seems like he'd bomb Iran. Interesting stuff here (with which I disagree), but I gather is in favor with Bush, Cheney (duh) and the rest of the neocons.
|
|
| | |
| | | 489 | walk
ID: 7952415 Mon, Oct 29, 2007, 14:49
|
Sullivan's View
I'd agree with this view, too.
|
|
| | |
| | | 491 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Wed, Oct 31, 2007, 14:24
|
|
|
| | | 492 | Perm Dude
ID: 3110341616 Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 23:01
|
#179: The story of Arar should be the one thing we think of when we think of Bush's "legacy." It just sums up so much of what this Administration did and what it tore down to do it.
|
|
| | | 493 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 12:51
|
Rove's version of history: The Democrat Congress rushed us to war in Iraq.
Hat Tip: Daily Dish.
|
|
| | | 494 | Perm Dude
ID: 2710413011 Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 13:01
|
He doesn't say "Democratic" MITH. In fact, both houses of Congress were controlled by Republicans. But he misses the point completely about what the vote was: It authorized the President to go to war, it did not compel him to. And it misses the point that the president asked for that authorization at the time.
The Congress didn't go to war. The President did.
Also, the "mistake" he says about Social Security isn't a mistake at all--"we should be have moved earlier" is a timing problem, not that their ideas about how to fix it were wrong.
Slippery man, this Rove.
|
|
| | | 495 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 13:06
|
Ah - forgot the GOP controlled Congress back then.
|
|
| | | 496 | Perm Dude
ID: 2710413011 Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 13:07
|
Yeah, but many don't remember that, and by blaming Congress he's still taking a shot at Dems.
|
|
| | | 497 | Perm Dude
ID: 2710413011 Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 13:22
|
Actually, I was half wrong.
The House was in Republican control, but I forgot about James Jeffords, who went from Republican to Independent and caucused with the Dems, giving them control of the Senate for a short period (about a year-and-a-half).
|
|
| | | 498 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 11:53
|

Earmarks, earmarks, earmarks...
|
|
| | | 499 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sun, Dec 30, 2007, 23:18
|
Working the late shift at my 2nd job... bored to delirium... reduced to linking reader emails at Daily Dish.
less than two hours to go... then an hour commute home.
|
|
| | |
| | | 501 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 22:15
|

I think that "characterizes" quite a few of the "conservative" posters around here quite well.
|
|
| | | 502 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:43
|
Before libs and neocons get done people will be convinced Reagan couldn't find a principle with both hands.
I always said socialists weren't satisfied with taking over just one of the two parties.
I wonder if there is time to get a functional third party up and running before the blue hats knock down our doors?
|
|
| | | 503 | Perm Dude
ID: 3212788 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 02:29
|
Feel like taking down another party, B? I guess because your party has decided to abdicate the whole "policy" thingy you have some free time on your hands.
|
|
| | | 504 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 08:43
|
The money men abdicated the conservative principles which put the R party in the majority. That is the only abdicating going on.
|
|
| | | 505 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 10:21
|
I always said socialists weren't satisfied with taking over just one of the two parties.
Alternatively, one could argue that fascists are, and that is what our government, until the technical rules of fascism is turning to. Run by the corporations, with cuts into civil liberties and more exec power. Which label do you prefer? I'll take being called a socialist and you can be the fascist.
|
|
| | | 506 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 12:50
|
until the technical rules of fascism is turning to
That does not compute.
|
|
| | | 507 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 14:53
|
I was not clear then. Our gov't at this point seems to be more controlled, both in terms of $ and policy, by the large corporations of America (oil companies, finance companies, etc.). Corporations running the gov't is one integral facet of fascism. #9 in the list of defining characteristics below:
Fascism
|
|
| | | 508 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 15:37
|
Our gov't at this point seems to be more controlled, both in terms of $ and policy, by the large corporations of America
How in the hell can you possibly say that when well over 1/2 of our federal budget is spent on entitlement / socialistic programs?
|
|
| | | 509 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 15:47
|
Box, seriously, you don't think that our energy policy (oil companies), military policies (outsourcing to the Halliburton and Blackwater, for example), healthcare policies (pharma companies) are not heavily influenced by large corps who lobby and have relationships with our politicians, including our pres and vp? Whether we have some entitlement programs or not, to not see how large corps are affecting our gov't policies is naive. Just because we have social/entitlement programs does not mean that these policies are influenced by the private sector.
|
|
| | | 510 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 15:47
|
The truth, is never hard to say Box. Not for an honest person. Corporate America and its inherent special interests are acknowledged by most all persons to be in too much control.
|
|
| | | 511 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 15:52
|
Whether we have some entitlement programs or not,
SOME!!??
The country is BKing itself paying for these archaic Depression era programs. Go ahead and complain about corporate lobbying. Follow the federal dollars and the overwhelming majority of them follow to socialist programs.
|
|
| | | 512 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 16:00
|
Funny, I recall balanced budgets in the previous decade.
|
|
| | | 513 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 16:12
|
I know, right, sarge? Box, I am not breaking news here or presenting some radical liberal view of how things are. It's pretty common knowledge that corp interests are overwhelmingly behind many of the policy decisions of our gov't, and have been for a long time. Yet, this is much more so under the Bush-Cheney admin. Please.
|
|
| | | 515 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 16:27
|
corp interests are overwhelmingly behind many of the policy decisions of our gov't, and have been for a long time. Yet, this is much more so under the Bush-Cheney admin.
Moreso than under the Clinton administration? Probably only true if you think the Haliburton/Carlyle Group ties steered us toward war in Iraq. I don't discount the possibility but I don't think there's a definitive case for that, either.
Would make for an interesting study (Clinton vs Bush corporate ties guiding policy).
|
|
| | | 516 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 16:31
|
Fair enough, MITH, but I do think there was a clear biz motive for the Iraq war but also realize that does not prove that we went into Iraq to benefit those particular corp interests (although they surely have done well, including the oil companies).
|
|
| | | 517 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 16:32
|
But my overarching point was in response to the comments that the Dem side was turning our country socialist when in fact we are far more corp controlled than any socialist country would/could allow.
|
|
| | | 518 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 16:34
|
I'm not so sure a "cause affect" relationship can be shown between the two parties. It seems to my aging memory, that corporate donations to politicians, runs fairly high and relatively close, to each of the two primary parties. That way, regardless who wins the election, the "ties" are established.
|
|
| | | 519 | Tree
ID: 41126911 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 16:51
|
The country is BKing itself paying for these archaic Depression era programs a war in Iraq that should never have happened in the first place
fixed that for ya Box. don't sweat it, we all make mistakes sometimes.
|
|
| | | 520 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:17
|
Funny, I recall balanced budgets in the previous decade.
So then you're blissfully unaware of the future costs of these socialist programs?
Tree: fixed that for ya Box. don't sweat it, we all make mistakes sometimes.
You really are dim. I'm serious. Does anyone else here besides Tree think that the Iraq war will cost more than Social Security / Medicare and Medicaid?
Enjoy
Social Security and Medicare have promised $37 trillion more in benefits to senior and disabled workers than the programs will be able to pay, according to a new report. The 2006 annual report of the trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds concludes that both programs will require progressively larger transfers from general revenues to maintain the projected levels of spending.
|
|
| | | 521 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:24
|
I am aware of the problems with funding of Medicare down the road, but what's your solution? Stop taking care of the health needs of the elderly? These programs have been able to control costs better than the private side, taking care of sicker folks.
It's not like if you do away with the program that then the costs will disappear too.
The problem is the skyrocketing costs of medical care, not the fact that it's administered by the government.
Ditto on SS, which is far smaller problem.
|
|
| | | 522 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:26
|
you're blissfully unaware of the future costs of these socialist programs?
Oh is that what you were talking about when the rest of us were discussing why the economy (note the present tense here:) IS BROKEN NOW?
|
|
| | | 523 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:26
|
Right bili, Box, what is your point? Get rid of social security? It's relative, man.
|
|
| | | 524 | Tree
ID: 41126911 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:29
|
The country is BKing itself paying for these archaic Depression era programs.
So then you're blissfully unaware of the future costs of these socialist programs?
so, exactly how far in the future? we're nearly 80 years past the the depression.
You really are dim. I'm serious.
got to give you credit. you and Baldwin are as close as two nuts in a sack - can't even respond to me without calling me some sort of name.
Does anyone else here besides Tree think that the Iraq war will cost more than Social Security / Medicare and Medicaid?
that's a red herring, btw.
the point is that the money we're putting into Iraq is the extra expense. the social programs, if you'll recall, are Depression era programs...
|
|
| | | 525 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:40
|
Welcome to the discussion biliruben. Do you agree or disagree with the assertion that the government spends more money on entitlement programs than business perks thus leaning the government to a socialist spending habit as opposed to facism?
|
|
| | | 526 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:44
|
the social programs, if you'll recall, are Depression era programs...
That should be heavily restructured at the minimum because they are bankrupting our country.
The entire cost of the Iraq War is a spit in the bucket when compared to the past, present, and future costs of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.
The whole point of the debate is that walk thinks the corps have too much power in DC. I contend that he ought to look at where the money is spent to gauge the real power and the money is going mainly to entitlement programs.
|
|
| | | 527 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:54
|
I am aware of the problems with funding of Medicare down the road, but what's your solution? Stop taking care of the health needs of the elderly?
I would guarentee benefits at existing levels for people 50 or over now. Phase out benefits for those 45-49. Below 45 get nothing. The cap on wages taxed needs to be raised as well to ensure solvency for the Baby Boom generation. I would also make Social Security and Medicare participation voluntary. If you contribute, you get benefits later on, if not, you get nothing. For those who elect to not participate I would allow them to use health savings accounts as a vehicle to save for medical expenses in retirement. Then I would raise the 401(k) contribution cap (currently at 15,500 for those under 50 and 20,500 for those 50+) so that folks who elect not to participate in Social Security can contribute more to their retirement plans.
Let the liberals here pick it apart, but even they know they cannot meet a future liability of the size I referenced without seriously impacting the take home pay of every man, woman, and child in this country.
|
|
| | | 528 | Tree
ID: 41126911 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 18:50
|
the social programs, if you'll recall, are Depression era programs...
That should be heavily restructured at the minimum because they are bankrupting our country.
care to address the whole post? remember, we're 80 years past the depression...
The entire cost of the Iraq War is a spit in the bucket when compared to the past, present, and future costs of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.
the War in Iraq isn't even five years old yet.
Medicare and Medicaid are each a bit over 40 years old.
Social Security is a bit more than 70 years old.
no question that combined, those three account for a large chunk of the U.S. Budget.
but in less than 5 years, we've managed to spend damned close to 500 BILLION dollars on the War in Iraq, so don't act like it's a drop in the bucket.
It's a huge expense, and one that has been unnecessary since day one. it has not helped one citizen of the united states in any way, shape, or form, and arguably, has hurt the citizenry of this country.
|
|
| | | 529 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 18:58
|
Right, Box, no one here is arguing that the Iraq war cost more than social programs, over the long haul. My point is the increasing control of corporations on gov't policy.
|
|
| | | 530 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 21:08
|
My point is the increasing control of corporations on gov't policy.
And I'm trying to tell you that despite its obvious existence, the bling bling thrown their way pales in their comparison to the socialist programs.
Tree: Go over these numbers and try and tell me the Iraq War even compares, and this is just ONE YEAR of Social Security and Medicare.
Yes, it is a spit in the bucket when compared to Social Security and Medicare.
|
|
| | | 531 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 21:22
|
the bling bling thrown their way pales in their comparison to the socialist programs.
Who do you think benefits economically from Medicare?
|
|
| | | 532 | Tree
ID: 41126911 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 22:02
|
the point EVERYONE ELSE is making is so far over your head Boxman, it might as well be a celestial body.
let me put it in bold for you, since the text might be too small for you to read, because i have no other idea how you could be missing.
I - ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE COMMENTING HERE - AM FULLY AWARE OF HOW MUCH OUR SOCIAL PROGRAMS COST. I AM SAYING THAT THE WAR IN IRAQ - A TOTALLY UNNECESSARY WAR - HAS COST US HALF-A-TRILLION DOLLARS IN FIVE SHORT YEARS.
when it comes to cost-effectiveness, i would be hard-pressed to think of a greater waste of dollars in our government than the Iraq War.
|
|
| | | 533 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 23:49
|
So, in fairness to you Box, what you are saying, have been saying, is in response to my initial comment, that in a literal sense, we are moving towards fascism due to increased corp company control over gov't policy. And you are saying "far from it, look at the proportionately more $ we have spent on social programs," we are not even close to a fascist state." If I am correctly deducing our debate, my response is, along the lines of what PV is indicating, that a lot of the deals brokered around even our social programs, and more notably around perhaps relatively less expensive programs such as the Iraq war, outsourcing, the war on drugs, war on terror, etc., which are very expensive in their own right, as Tree has said clearly, are all influenced by corporations. This also includes our energy policy, gun lobby, tobacco lobby, alcohol lobby, etc. Not to mention the pharmaceutical lobby. Many of our domestic and foreign policies have been and continue to be, influenced by corporations, and this is not exclusive to the U.S., I realize that, it's just exponentially trending upward. That's my point. Sorry to belabor it.
|
|
| | | 534 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 02:28
|
Word.
|
|
| | | 535 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 09:52
|
part of me feels like this is the part where Box, et al, starts chiming in with the whole "you guys are all agreeing with each other because you all agree with each other" mantra that was disproven so convincingly fairly recently.
funny thing is, in light of what i've posted here, on other boards, and in the blog, i think there might actually be something to that, only in as much as those that lean left are realizing we kind of do have to work together to make change, while those that lean right seem to be pushing each other to the ground to see who can stomp on the other's throat first.
but, i hope i'm wrong, and Box comes back with how he's starting to grasp what we're saying.
ah, the audacity of hope.
|
|
| | | 536 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 11:35
|
but, i hope i'm wrong, and Box comes back with how he's starting to grasp what we're saying.
I think I made my point. All the liberal (and some conversative) outrage over the cost of the Iraq War is really naval lint compared to past, present and future costs of socialist programs we have here. I also hold firm that we have a government with socialist spending tendancies as opposed to one with facist spending tendancies.
|
|
| | | 537 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 11:44
|
Maybe you are right, but it is a false analogy. And, frankly, it sounds like a weird rationalization to talk about the huge costs of this war over, say, the many, many years of food stamps costs, or children vaccination, or other programs (Social Security doesn't count--this is not much money since it is a wealth transfer rather than a direct government subsidy).
If you want to make the claim that the Iraqi War is money poorly spent and compare that with the total historical cost of other inefficient programs you can probably try to make the argument. You haven't. You ask people on the street if they would prefer to have their taxes go to food stamps or to the Iraqi War and you'll quickly find yourself in the minority.
|
|
| | | 538 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 12:05
|
Maybe you are right, but it is a false analogy.
Spin it anyway you like. The government in this country spends more on socialist programs than fascist ones. I said nothing about popular opinion. Yet it is the socialist type programs (Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid) that are bankrupting and will bankrupt this country without serious action and reform.
|
|
| | | 539 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 12:24
|
It isn't a "spin" to say you aren't making the argument you think you are making. Historical budgets don't matter one whit. Prevous programs (under whatever name you want to call them) are paid for. To talk about historical program costs as a problem with future budget misstates (or reflects a misunderstanding) of how the federal budget works.
In addition, you want to make some kind of distinction between "facist" and "socialist" programs like these are "bad" and "worst." What nonsense.
I agree that Medicare is a problem, but it is reflective of the overall problems with dealing with health care costs. Medicaid and Social Security are not problems, and are fully funded until 2040. But there are steps we need to take to ensure they are not a budgetary hole as we go on.
|
|
| | | 540 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 12:27
|
Maybe you are right, but it is a false analogy.
Spin it anyway you like.
and by "anyway", you mean "accurately"?
come on, it's not a spin if it's a fact. they are completely unrelated issues.
|
|
| | | 541 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 12:33
|
Historical budgets don't matter one whit. Prevous programs (under whatever name you want to call them) are paid for. To talk about historical program costs as a problem with future budget misstates (or reflects a misunderstanding) of how the federal budget works.
Otherwise, you'd have to figure in the costs of Vietnam, Korea, Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo, arming the mujahideen in Afghanistan, arming the contras in Nicaragua, financing failed coups in Venezuela and a litany of other defense-oriented expenditures that have nothing to do with defense.
|
|
| | | 542 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 18:33
|
this is not much money since it is a wealth transfer rather than a direct government subsidy) - PD
Marvelous. Watching liberals think is like watching a train wreck.
|
|
| | | 543 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:12
|
You really don't think taking money from one set of taxpayers and giving it to another is a wealth transfer?
In the case of a wealth transfer of this sort, the only cost to government is a transactional one.
Watching you think would be a first, Baldwin.
|
|
| | | 544 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:19
|
You really think any government program isn't?
It's all government holding us up at gunpoint, stealing a dollar, handing us back a nickel and asking us for our appreciation.
|
|
| | | 545 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:26
|
Yes, I do. If you can't see the difference between a program funded by government money and one funded directly by taxpayers through a directed taxation scheme I can't really help you. Seriously.
You can't gloss this over as "government always = robbers" nonsense.
|
|
| | | 546 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:45
|
The government doesn't have any money. It's all our confiscated money.
|
|
| | | 547 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:50
|
It's all government holding us up at gunpoint, stealing a dollar, handing us back a nickel and asking us for our appreciation.
If only I got a nickel...
“Government is the people's business and every man, woman and child becomes a shareholder with the first penny of tax paid.” - Ronald Reagan
And when was the last time we got anything out of this investment? When I was a kid I could on at least an annual "dividend" in the form of a tax refund. That doesn't even occur anymore because God forbid somebody makes money in the market so we've got to penalize him for it.
The liberals here have no qualms with spending over 1/2 of our money on socialist programs like Social Security and Medicare. These programs are the greatest fiscal crisis we now face, but they'll use the Iraq War all day as a financial deflectionary tool.
These programs made sense during the depression, but they are long since outdated and have most likely permanently stifled personal savings responsibility and investment innovation. What sort of return does the government get on Social Security and Medicare money? What rate of return do we get, as shareholders in the government, on our money?
I charge that had Social Security and Medicare been stopped in the 40s, that we might have seen vehicles like a 401(k), IRA and health savings accounts much earlier and we would see a significant increase in personal responsibility. Instead we have a nanny state where a lot of folks now look to the government for answers when in fact government is not the answer it is the gigantic problem. All it does is create situations where folks have it ingrained in their head that government will always be there to save the day without realizing how wrong they are and how dangerous that situation really is.
|
|
| | | 548 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 20:15
|
Boxman, do you really think that 100% of American citizens can save enough money, through a 401(k) or an IRA or some such, to pay for their entire retirement? Do you even know any people who make less than $30,000/year. I do and I know that they cannot save anything because they are in the hole as it is.
What percentage of Americans could successfully save for their retirement? And what to do with the rest. Since you advocate doing away with SS & Medicare, I guess you are prepared for tens to possibly hundreds of thousands of homeless elderly. Do you have any idea how much it costs out of pocket to live in a nursing home? When your mind wraps itself around that, then imagine spending five years in an Alzheimer's Care Facility. Don't worry, you won't understand the $5k/month bill when you get it.
Expecting the elderly to pick up their own costs sounds like a great policy, if you are a poor African country suffering through a 30 year war. Most developed countries take pride in caring for their sick and old. Anyone who so much as proposes doing away with SS & Medicare is the type of American radical that I'm not too fond of.
I didn't read the entire report you linked in post 530, but I did read plenty and I don't see what all the hullabaloo is about.
The annual cost of Social Security benefits represented 4.2 percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 2006, is projected to increase to 6.2 percent of GDP in 2030, and then rise slowly to 6.3 percent of GDP in 2081.
That's a freakin' bargain.
As for Medicare, hey, we do spend too much money for our medicine and something needs to be done. However, I feel certain that not only whatever I believe is the best way to solve the problem, but also what the majority of Americans think is the proper way to bring down costs will have you up in arms because you are a fringe radical. You have a just enough knowledge of economics to make you dangerous. You love "market solutions" regardless if they are effective or not. You probably cheered when California's energy market was "opened" and Enron lied, cheated and stole the state into rolling blackouts.
Calling Social Security and Medicare "socialist" programs comes only from people who wish they lived in a oligarchical society like those in South America. They hope that they can hire Blackwater to guard their gated community some day, to keep Grandma from knocking on their door in her Alzheimer's dementia.
|
|
| | | 549 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 20:21
|
Boxman
The key to this is that they always sabotage the system and then claim the only solution is to go further down the marxist path.
And SZ thank you and yours soooo very much for trial lawyers and the culture of victimology.
|
|
| | | 550 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 20:31
|
And when was the last time we got anything out of this investment?
you don't drive?
|
|
| | | 551 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 20:46
|
Boxman -
I charge that had Social Security and Medicare been stopped in the 40s, that we might have seen vehicles like a 401(k), IRA and health savings accounts much earlier and we would see a significant increase in personal responsibility. Instead we have a nanny state where a lot of folks now look to the government for answers when in fact government is not the answer it is the gigantic problem. All it does is create situations where folks have it ingrained in their head that government will always be there to save the day without realizing how wrong they are and how dangerous that situation really is.
What is more dangerous, having the working poor receive a Social Security check and medical care, which, according to Boxman is a very dangerous situation that few are aware, or expect them to continue to work until they become too ill and fill our emergency rooms. I'm sure Boxman's dream is to allow hospitals to deny medical treatment to anyone whom they please, so the working poor and old will be bared from even going to an emergency room. Ah, yeah, danger averted.
Ask a poor, elderly woman who needs to visit a doctor if Social Security & Medicare, hell, all government, is a "problem". Hell, ask just about any American.
Baldwin - And SZ thank you and yours soooo very much for trial lawyers and the culture of victimology.
I get my daily dose of victimology cultures in my probiotics supplement. It's great for my digestive tract, well, that's what my hippie naturalpath tells me.
Hey, do JW's have a national convention like other churches? Has there ever been a plenary on "What would a world completely of JW's be like?" I'm curious, what would y'all do now that you have no society to drop out of? How would you elect a government? Would you have a judiciary? If you did, wouldn't anyone who appears in front of them be a trial lawyer? How else would you punish someone for celebrating Christmas?
Just asking. And you might want to ask your provider to reassess your meds.
|
|
| | | 552 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 12:54
|
Medicare started in 1965, for what it is worth.
|
|
| | | 553 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 12:57
|
Bloomberg did an interesting analysis, of what would our budget look like if we took Clinton's last budget (including long-term budgetary projections), and added in the War on Terror costs.
The result: $152 billion surplus.
It makes you sick to think about it. All that money wasted on ethanol and bridges to nowhere has accumulated into a pile that massive. Uncle Sam ate a whopping helping of apple pie every day for seven years, and now he is obese.
|
|
| | | 554 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 13:26
|
But.. but.. but... Bush cut taxes so we're better off, aren't we?
|
|
| | | 555 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 13:33
|
Does it take into account the effect lower taxes had on the post 9/11 economic recovery?
|
|
| | | 556 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 13:44
|
Are you saying the government should go massively in debt to help a non-recession economy? Or even if that was the intent of the huge increase in discretionary spending?
Looking for the lipstick on the pig, eh?
|
|
| | | 557 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 13:47
|
Boxman: Here's a quote from the article I lonked to, that you don't seem to want to read:
If we had held the line on everything else that is discretionary, we could have had the prescription-drug plan, the Iraq war and the war against terrorists. We could have kept all the Bush tax cuts, made them permanent, repealed the AMT and added the stimulus package and still ended up with a balanced budget from 2008 to 2017.
|
|
| | |
| | | 559 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 13:36
|
PD -- You trusting the AEI now? I'm concerned that Hassett's point is misleading. The only way I can get to anything close to his numbers is to include interest payments in his calculations ... the rosy projections for interest payments that were in place in 2001.
Discretionary spending seems to me to be about 25% of the overall swing in our fiscal fortunes. An issue, yes, but even if we had done as he suggests, we'd only be about (crudely) $280b better off. Not nearly enough to get the unified budget into surplus.
Compare 2001 versus today (actually a rosy version of today; I used a 2008 estimate of a $400b deficit to derive my previous paragraph numbers).
|
|
| | | 560 | Perm Dude
ID: 25139138 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 14:34
|
Madman!
The post was reflective of a thought exercise. The point nor being the exact numbers but that we'd be so much better off.
|
|
| | | 561 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:55
|
PD -- Hassett's writing to a fiscal conservative audience from a fiscal conservative thinktank. I think he's trying to argue that it was the discretionary non-defense spending that got us into this mess and it's controlling spending that will get us out. And that's a negative on both points.
Dunno. I can't prove a negative; I can't find any specifics on his simulation. But he should specifically and ONLY adjust domestic discretionary spending in his scenario the way he's talking about things. If you do that, you don't get anywhere close to nirvana by 2008.
That's why I strongly suspect he's taking the entire set of spending from the 2001 projections ... the biggest problem of which is the very, very low interest payments. If you follow that first link, the 2001 projections we were supposed to have run surpluses so large that by 2008 the federal government was going to have so much money leftover that it literally wouldn't know what to do with it all. The economic downturn + tax cuts + mandatory spending + defense spending + discretionary spending + interest payments because of all the other items obliterated all of that. And of all those pieces, discretionary spending swing, although large, simply isn't the largest item in that list, let alone large enough to pay for all the others and keep a surplus.
|
|
| | | 562 | Perm Dude
ID: 28140147 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:59
|
I was thinking of this late last night, and I think the interest payments really are the key. Partly because of what you point out, but also the compounding problem of borrowing to pay for the additional discretionary spending (the interest to pay the borrowing on this increase would not, itself, show up as an increased discretionary spending cost).
Tax cuts really nailed this as well, making everything more expensive.
I dunno either. Remember just a few years ago when there was a worry about how the Social Security surplus would be used if there were no T-bills on sale? Ah, good days.
|
|
| | | 563 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 13:17
|
"Remember just a few years ago when there was a worry about how the Social Security surplus would be used if there were no T-bills on sale? Ah, good days."
No kidding.
And one that I throw around people around here ... the ANNUAL INTEREST PAYMENTS on the spending for the "stimulus" would be large enough to pay for the SCHIP bill expansion that Democrats "fought" for last year.
Granted after 8-10 years, medical inflation would eventually push the cost of SCHIP higher, but geez Louise.
(note: I'm not the biggest proponent of SCHIP, especially the way it is administered and structured. But I think this comparison nicely illustrates the moral bankruptcy in Washington right now).
|
|
| | | 564 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 13:31
|
Hey! Madman. For as long as you've been gone, you must be a level-10 insurance monk who can kill with his calculator.
I was thinking about you yesterday while reading about Cuomo chasing after health insurers for using Ingenix to off-load out-of-area reimbursements onto the consumer.
|
|
| | | 565 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 14:45
|
Interesting, BR. I hadn't seen that. I'll have to look into what we use for UCR determination for our out of network claims.
Cuomo's not my favorite AG, as you can guess. But I'm mostly indifferent about this one from what I can read so far. Good things and bad things about his approach (aside from the rhetoric, which seems rather out of touch with reality).
Point of technicality -- it's for out of network benefits, not out of area. Many networks are national in scope, but a doctor next door might not be in it.
My first reaction is that the federal government, by fiat, gives legal protection to seniors from this *exact* same problem. Physicians who do not accept Medicare's fees are nonetheless restricted on the size of their 'balance billing'. IIRC (big if), the max is something like 15% higher than Medicare fees, minus a 5% charge for being out of network.
I don't know why they don't do the same for privately insured (even so far as making it as a percent of Medicare -- why not? Although the AMA would get pissed). That wouldn't solve all cases -- you'd still have situations where the benefit isn't covered by Medicare and you'd have to come to terms with those. But it would be a great start that would eliminate 95% of the problem. And it is also a solution that recognizes the public interest in access to care first, and sorting out the contract second. Because no matter what else you do, the bottom line fact remains that for these out-of-network claims, services are being provided by docs / facilities without an a priori contract governing how they should be reimbursed. That was fine in the 1960s, but has been blown away since.
End idealistic comments.
Given where we are now, however, it's important to remember that when you visit non-network providers there is no contract governing appropriate reimbursement. Therefore, you don't have the balance-billing protection that actually makes health insurance insurance. The insurance company has not, for whatever reason, been able to successfully negotiate with the provider for your legal protection.
When going OON, therefore, the member *chooses* to remove herself from the insurance arrangement. In such a case, I don't see why insureds who make different choices should have to pay.
I also don't understand the standing that a physician would have suing the insurance company. The physician knows there is no contract, just like the patient and insurance company does. The physician has the right to deny care in most cases. Even if Ingenix is systematically understating costs, I don't get it. There must be something else that I'm missing here.
(and almost all insurance contracts have exceptions for out of network emergency care, unique care problems, etc., and to the extent that an insurance company denies the in-network status of those claims, I'll side with the member).
The last comment is that Ingenix's connection to UnitedHealthCare has always interested me. I also qualify my remarks to the extent that there may be misrepresentations or fraud because of that relationship.
|
|
| | | 566 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 15:00
|
Actually, I should retract my commentary about the feds providing balance-billing protection for OON claims. I do advocate it strongly, but I kind of threw that in there as bait. I should be nicer.
I think it has a real potential to unravel the entire reimbursement and cost structure inside of healthcare delivery. That's something I would advocate, but it would meet with intense political opposition. Which is why it hasn't happened and never will happen.
|
|
| | | 567 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 15:11
|
Right. Out of network. Sorry.
I don't understand how Ingenix could be owned by UnitedHealthCare either. At least on the Commercial Property and Casualty side ISO maintains the appearance of being independent.
There are many ways they could be low-balling the “customary and reasonable fees”. For instance if, as they say, they are tossing bills that seem "far from the norm", and those constitute 5%, okay. If they constitute 50%, then the ARE the norm.
I don't quite get what you are saying regarding contracts. It shouldn't matter that there is no contract between the insurer and provider. I see this as an issue between the insurer and the consumer. Reading through my certificate of coverage, They pay 90% of "allowed amounts" in-network and 60% of "allowed amounts" non-network. If they are changing what the allowed amount is based on network status, that seems like fraud against the consumer.
|
|
| | | 568 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 15:13
|
You'll have to give me some background before I even recognize the bait!
|
|
| | | 569 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 16:30
|
1) I don't quite get what you are saying regarding contracts. It shouldn't matter that there is no contract between the insurer and provider. I see this as an issue between the insurer and the consumer. Reading through my certificate of coverage, They pay 90% of "allowed amounts" in-network and 60% of "allowed amounts" non-network. If they are changing what the allowed amount is based on network status, that seems like fraud against the consumer.
Allowed out-of-network is almost by definition higher than allowed in-network. The point of a network is that you can win "discounts" from providers willing to join your network. A situation where your "discounts" don't even get you to a generic "reasonable and customary" would be quite bizarre.
If a company is indeed chopping allowed out of network to below their allowed in-network, I'd agree with you (or at least I'd agree that there is a fundamental problem somewhere). I don't read the data in the article, however, as definitive evidence for that. Although I do agree that is what they are trying to imply.
2) "There are many ways they could be low-balling the “customary and reasonable fees”. For instance if, as they say, they are tossing bills that seem "far from the norm", and those constitute 5%, okay. If they constitute 50%, then the ARE the norm." I understand that. It seems like that is a suit between the physician organizations and Ingenix. Which is perhaps Cuomo's main beef.
3) People from Ingenix claim they have strong "firewalls" between their corp and UHC. I've seen no evidence to the contrary. But you still do wonder.
4) "You'll have to give me some background before I even recognize the bait!" Cutting to the chase, what I proposed would eventually work as a defacto price ceiling across ALL business, with the ceiling being a function of Medicare reimbursement levels. It might end up destroying the idea of PPO networks (reducing some admin) and be an implicit limit on the ability of Medicare to cost-shift to private insurance. Or it might result in networks that have (relative to today) steep discounts, again limiting Medicare's cost-shifting ability. I suspect the idea of networks -- and the corollary illusion of partially managed care -- would die first.
I suspect in the short-run it would also continue the deterioration in PCP care that we are seeing today. But it also would help control costs overall, and force the government to realize more of its true cost. And it may help push the supply-side reforms I think are needed on the delivery side.
It's a very small idea -- limiting OON balance-billing, but it can have a huge impact on the overall market.
If you think about it, there's something in there for virtually everyone to dislike. But I like it. (BTW, I like it despite also understanding there would have to be a corresponding minimum allowed charge payment by insurance companies, again linked to Medicare fees, perhaps).
This is way too complicated a topic for a forum post.
|
|
| | | 570 | Perm Dude
ID: 28140147 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 16:42
|
But not for a blog entry...
:)
|
|
| | | 571 | Madman
ID: 14139157 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 08:41
|
Ha, yeah PD. My blogging has died along with my forum posting.
I have one more exam to go (May). And then I'll be done; even if I fail, I still can't take anything until next year. Either way, I'll have more time this summer.
|
|
| | | 572 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 09:12
|
NYTimes OpEd on the Ingenix issue ... NY Times OpEd
I obviously disagree with a lot of the rhetoric in the piece. But here' what struck me:
"The attorney general’s investigators did their own survey and concluded that $200 is the fair market rate in New York City and Nassau County for a 15-minute consultation with a doctor for an illness of low to moderate severity."
Does anyone know how to calculate Medicare Part B's reimbursement rate for the same scenario (same location, etc.)?
|
|
| | | 573 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 09:16
|
I did find this reference to Medicaid reimbursement.
They would apparently get about $5 for the same 15-minute time-span ($20 for a one-hour visit).
That same article suggests that Medicare may be around $50 ($196 for an hour).
|
|
| | | 574 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 09:26
|
A better source ... A better source ...
"Medicaid physicians in New York get paid $30.00 for a 15-minute office visit with an established patient while their counterparts in the higher-paying states earn $49.20 (more than 1.6 times more) for the same service; and when the visit is a consultation with a new or established patient and lasts 60 minutes, New York doctors earn a paltry $20.00 while their colleagues in the HPS earn $157.92, a more than sevenfold difference (CPT Code 99213, Table 4; and CPT 99244, Table 5). Within-state differences also emerge when Medicaid fees are compared to Medicare. In New York, physicians earn more than twice the fee for seeing an established patient for 15 minutes (CPT Code 99213, Table 4) under Medicare as they do under Medicaid ($65.27 vs. $30.00)."
Bottom line ... Medicaid would allow $30, Medicare would allow $65 (before patient cost share), Ingenix suggest $77 (before patient cost share). Does not seem unreasonable (18% higher than Medicare).
On the other hand, this is the first hard evidence I've been able to find that suggests Cuomo's $200 / 15 minutes is silly.
And, yes, doctors are legally free to balance bill the patient. They don't balance-bill too much for Medicare because it's illegal. They are free to treat their privately insured patients as well as they treat their seniors. According to Cuomo's team, they don't.
Again, not to defend Ingenix-UHC. But if the NYT is going to talk about ripping off doctors or patients, you've got to put this all in perspective.
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 577 | Perm Dude
ID: 12614299 Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 15:19
|
As we know from the Middle East, oil and power politics often combine to despots out of politicians. So the news today shouldn't be a surprise: Ted Stevens indicted Is the the end of corrupt Alaskan politics? Maybe Don Young is next?
TPM's rundown of Stevens' stories
|
|
| | | 578 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815 Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 16:42
|
Where is the real PD and what have you done with him?
I think just for a clearer picture of where you are now coming from you should show us the new blogs/sites that have so radically redefined you as a poster.
|
|
| | | 579 | Perm Dude
ID: 12614299 Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 16:49
|
I've been posting from TPM for years, Baldwin. In fact, they won an award for their coverage of the AG firing scandal.
|
|
| | | 580 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 16:51
|
Boldwin - what are your thoughts on Stevens, not PD?
|
|
| | | 581 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 18:04
|
Another day, another lying Republican going to jail. Any wonder that candidates for office have been putting "GOP" to the exclusion of "Republican" on their campaign yard signs?
|
|
| | |
| | | 583 | Perm Dude
ID: 27639309 Wed, Jul 30, 2008, 10:42
|
The National Review urges Stevens to resign now, rather than wait. There is a small window for the Alaska GOP here--their primary is at the end of November--and if Stevens drags this out Alaska is likely to see their first Democratic US Senator since 1974.
|
|
| | | 584 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Wed, Jul 30, 2008, 12:17
|
So the primary is in late November and the election is in early November? That should be interesting.
|
|
| | | 585 | Perm Dude
ID: 27639309 Wed, Jul 30, 2008, 12:20
|
Typo, sorry. Primary is August 26th.
|
|
| | | 586 | biliruben
ID: 52561217 Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 14:13
|
|
|
| | | 587 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 12:50
|
The Sun has set on the Republicans, look forward to an Alaskan winter.
For more than three years starting in 2005, there has been a reduction in the number of voters who register with the Republican Party and a rise among voters who affiliate with Democrats and, almost as often, with no party at all. Yet while an unpopular war, a faltering economy and a president held in low esteem have combined to hurt the Republican Party, Democrats are also benefiting from demographic changes, including the rise in the number of younger voters and the urbanization of suburbs, which has resulted in a different political flavor there, voting and campaign experts said. The party has also been helped by a willingness to run more pragmatic candidates, who have helped make the party more appealing to a broader swath of the electorate. Among the 26 states with registration data, the percentage of those who have signed on with Democrats has risen in 15 states since 2004, and the percentage for Republicans has risen in six, according to state data. The number of registered Democrats fell in 11 states, compared with 20 states where Republican registration numbers fell. In the 26 states and the District of Columbia where registration data were available, the total number of registered Democrats increased by 214,656, while the number of Republicans fell by 1,407,971. Don't let the chamber door hit you in the ass on your way out...
|
|
| | | 588 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 13:46
|
I wish this meant the rise of third party, but at lass i fear not.
|
|
| | | 589 | biliruben
ID: 52561217 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 13:53
|
Let me guess...
... The Communist Party? ;)
|
|
| | | 590 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 13:59
|
i think i would take any 3rd party choice if they were actually supported and won elections at least it would give you a little more choice than the either/or that we have now.
|
|
| | | 591 | Perm Dude
ID: 275658 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 14:02
|
It's been my belief that the Republican Party has, essentially, staked its existence on a strong anti-abortion stance, and have pulled into the fold those single-issue voters who either don't care about other issues strongly or are so overwhelmingly anti-abortion that they overlook other changes that the GOP has gone through.
Nothing else, IMO, explains the loyalty that GOP members continue to offer up to a party which has done complete reversals on such "core" values as conservation, fiscal reponsibility, nation-building, the rule of law, and so on.
Should Obama make the case that only he is best able to reduce the number of abortions in this country (a tightrope argument), the GOP will fracture right through its heartwood.
|
|
| | | 592 | biliruben
ID: 52561217 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 14:03
|
I agree, boikin. I was just teasing you.
It would take a radical modification of our election process to work, however. The two parties have such a strangle-hold on the process that it's difficult to impossible for 3rd parties to gain enough traction to thrive.
|
|
| | | 593 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 14:04
|
Should Obama make the case that only he is best able to reduce the number of abortions in this country
?
|
|
| | | 594 | Perm Dude
ID: 275658 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 14:12
|
As opposed to McCain, who might decrease the availability of birth control items and information.
I'm not saying the argument is easy to make. Many of those who oppose abortions also oppose birth control information (intended, of course, to prevent in the first place those pregancies being aborted). My point is that the single issue anti-abortion vote is about all that is holding the GOP together anymore.
|
|
| | | 595 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 14:38
|
Oh OK, i thought that is what you were getting out. I was just wondering if Obama had made a statement to that affect.
I do think there is more holding the republican party together more than that issue, but the other question that arises from that article is that just because you are democrat what does that mean? What is the difference between a conservative democrat (blue dog i believe is the term) and a republican?
It has to make some of the W bashers happy to see some good come from his presidency.
|
|
| | | 596 | ivan
ID: 37133810 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 16:33
|
It's been my belief that the Republican Party has, essentially, staked its existence on a strong anti-abortion stance, and have pulled into the fold those single-issue voters who either don't care about other issues strongly or are so overwhelmingly anti-abortion that they overlook other changes that the GOP has gone through.
i hadn't considered it quite like that, i think you may still be missing the mark. i think what we are seeing is the power of brand loyalty, or maybe even battered-spouse syndrome.
if we take as a given that the extremes on both sides pretty much support their candidate or nobody - what we are seeing now shouldn't be that much of a shock. the grand old party has traditional support - support that is tough to break even if the party isn't earning that support anymore. people still bought new coke, likewise classic coke soon became more popular than "old" coke was shortly before the change was made.
meanwhile obama / the dems have a very different case to be made, while his anti-war stance was good enough to outlast sen clinton, he has a much different case to make now. if the american people still believe that some form of victory is attainable, it shouldn't be too much of a suprise they back the guy who seems at least willing to fight.
when "change" is your signature you will have trouble with those who are at the least ok with the status quo. it may be worth noting that for the average guy only now are the bills for the wretched excess of w starting to come due, namely w/ the price of oil and anyone who had a sub-prime loan.
|
|
| | | 597 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 16:56
|
it may be worth noting that for the average guy only now are the bills for the wretched excess of w starting to come due, namely w/ the price of oil and anyone who had a sub-prime loan.
I think more accurately those are the perceived cost of W, not the actual ones.
|
|
| | | 598 | Perm Dude
ID: 672516 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 17:02
|
You're right--the actual costs won't be known until we get out of Iraq, we pay off the debt, we cover the cost of thousands of veteran injuries, etc etc.
|
|
| | | 599 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 17:10
|
PD i think that you right the cost of W years will not be know for quite some time and i guess theoretically the benefits of.
Though honestly i think for a majority of people they will neither be helped nor hurt by the years. you can argue I am wrong but if you look at things at Micro level you will see what little impact presidents have. they will think they were or were not but think and fact are not the same.
|
|
| | | 600 | ivan
ID: 37133810 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 17:26
|
i can agree with that.
|
|
| | | 601 | Perm Dude
ID: 672516 Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 17:48
|
On an economic level you might be right boikin. But that is incredibly callous. Over 4000 Americans have died in Iraq, and tens of thousands are being returned with life-changing injuries. For these people (and their families) the GWB years will forever impact them.
And the economic input these people will no longer have in the US has to be considered a negative as well, if you want to just look at numbers.
In the meantime, the government is piling up debt that will be a drag on its own ability to innovate. It will have to sink billions more into Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae. And it will have to continue to do so through economic upturns and downturns.
|
|
| | | 602 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 11:11
|
It will have to sink billions more into Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae. not sure what this has to do with this administration, they were going to veto the bill, never mind the fact that there failure was a by product of individual stupidity.
On an economic level you might be right boikin. But that is incredibly callous. Over 4000 Americans have died in Iraq, and tens of thousands are being returned with life-changing injuries. For these people (and their families) the GWB years will forever impact them.
you are right but is the whole better off? I do not know i think that is beyond any off us to really know.
|
|
| | | 603 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 11:22
|
I dont believe in all honesty, that the greatest "cost" of the shrubbery years, CAN be measured in terms of dollars and cents. It isnt IMHO, the cost of conducting the war, the rampant destruction of the middle class, the cost of veteran care, or inflation of any sort. No, I think the greatest cost, has been the erosion and outright destruction of the underlying principles of law and the checks-n-balances previously used by carious branches of the Fed Govt to rein in a runaway branch. THERE, is IMO, the worst 'cost' which we as a people will have to bear.
|
|
| | | 604 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 11:40
|
So Sarge who has this effected? I do not know a single person who seems effected by these "transgressions". I am not saying that laws were probably not broken, but were is the effect? Did i lose my job? Did my TV blow up? Did my park get closed?
|
|
| | | 605 | Perm Dude
ID: 4574767 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 11:43
|
Rights are hardly as mundane as that, and your flippant response will, no doubt, turn shrill just as soon you realize that this does affect you.
We could, of course, list the many, many people who were directly affected by the changes brought about by this awful administration but what's the point? If it doesn't affect your shallow life than it doesn't affect you at all, it appears.
|
|
| | | 606 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 11:49
|
The erosion boikin, of our civil rights, affects all of us in ways beyond measure. It makes our very form a governance weaker, and that puts us all in a position of jeopardy we havent seen in this country since the Japanese Americans in the 1940s. We have moved closer, MUCH closer, to a 'police state'. Not there yet, no. But the groundwork of using civil fear as an excuse to trample the constitution, has been laid and far too many in the populace, echo your cry of "hasnt hurt me", leaving unspoken the key word...y-e-t. The longer this wound festers, the more excruciating it will be when it DOES affect you.
|
|
| | | 607 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 12:50
|
you sound just like republicans when they talk of terrorist, each of you trying to sell me your own brand of fear.
|
|
| | | 608 | Perm Dude
ID: 4574767 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 12:56
|
Well, if you choose not to think we can hardly force you. Sand, meet boikin's head.
|
|
| | | 609 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 13:04
|
Well, if you choose not to think we can hardly force you. Sand, meet boikin's head. I think i have heard this arguement from the other side...if the realization that your rhetoric is the same means i am not thinking then fine so be it. at least ill know where my is.
|
|
| | | 610 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 13:17
|
brand of fear? Interesting. This admin has used the threat of fear itself, as grounds to deny Habeus Corpus, to dent Representation by Attorneys, to deny the sharing of "evidance" (where there "is" any), to detain w/o charges for an indefinite period of time, to wire-tap w/o warrants,....
Those are historic fact, not fear-mongering. According to our current Admin, all they need do is say "He/she might be a terrorist", and the Constitutional protections are suddenyl null and void. If that isnt righteous cause for concern (you may call it fear if it makes you feel better), then I would invite to tell me what IS cause for concern.
|
|
| | | 611 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 14:14
|
the fear you are spreading is:It makes our very form a governance weaker, and that puts us all in a position of jeopardy we havent seen in this country since the Japanese Americans in the 1940s. We have moved closer, MUCH closer, to a 'police state'. Not there yet, no. But the groundwork of using civil fear as an excuse to trample the constitution, has been laid and far too many in the populace, echo your cry of "hasnt hurt me", leaving unspoken the key word...y-e-t.
it just like the administration saying the terrorist have not attached you yet...
|
|
| | | 612 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 16:07
|
Those are historic fact, not fear-mongering.
|
|
| | | 613 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 16:23
|
which is it governance is weaker or we are living closer to police state? i am not really sure how you have a week government and police state. but since those are facts it should seem to me that once the week government falls the police state will be gone.
|
|
| | | 614 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 16:31
|
*sigh* Our TRADITIONAL form of government has been weakened, thus moving us closer to a Police State. There, clearer now?
|
|
| | | 615 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 17:11
|
ok, i am sure i could argue semantics with you all day, but you are still passing of opinion as fact and claiming the end of america as we know it, nevermind the fact we have elections for presidents every 4, reps every 2, and senators every 6. i guess they are all part of your police state that has not effected me yet?
|
|
| | | 616 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 17:55
|
a wall....I sweat to agwd...you're like a brick wall sometimes.
Do oyu deny, that the Checks-n-Balances employed in the past, have been severely hampered by this Administration?
Do you deny, that such a change, creates the backdrop for future Administrations to claim the same unaccountable-for privaleges? (Sets a dangerous precedent)
Do you deny, that when the 3 branches, find two of them subordinated by this change, that it weakens our traditional form of governemnt?
Do oyu deny, that the Administrative Branch, headed by a single individual, is then much closer to being able to institute a 'police state"?
Really boikin, its a simple process of logic. A leads toward B leads toward C. Is it inevitable? No. Has the groundwork been laid for it to happen? Undeniably, yes.
|
|
| | | 617 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 16:26
|
Really boikin, its a simple process of logic. A leads toward B leads toward C. Is it inevitable? No. Has the groundwork been laid for it to happen? Undeniably, yes.
well according to your logic we should have became a police state years ago, as i have pointed out before this administration was not the first one to not be reigned in by the other branches. So how it is possible we are not a police state already?
|
|
| | | 618 | Perm Dude
ID: 20746619 Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 16:33
|
I'm not sure that logic rules have a timetable attached to them.
Really, this whole argument has gotten silly.
|
|
| | | 619 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 02:37
|
sarge:Do you deny, that such a change, creates the backdrop for future Administrations to claim the same unaccountable-for privaleges? (Sets a dangerous precedent)
All the precedent that is ever needed took place under your probable hero FDR.
Perm Dude:On an economic level you might be right boikin. But that is incredibly callous. Over 4000 Americans have died in Iraq, and tens of thousands are being returned with life-changing injuries. For these people (and their families) the GWB years will forever impact them.
This sort of pansiness annoys me to no end. Every single one of those who died and suffered injuries signed up for the job and received paychecks for their work done. They felt it worthwhile. The majority of American people felt it was a worthwhile cause. That a few deaths changed that thinking just shows how pussified we've become as a country.
We are now, in fact, nearing a sort of victory there that you have been fighting against.
I refuse to sit idly by while you people reduce our honorable war heroes to victims, speak of them as mere 'kids dying,' when they are the most highly-trained, highly-effective fighting force the world has ever seen. There was no draft here. These men and women were willing to pay the ultimate price for the American people. And the fact that a miniscule amount of them died is a blessing (in comparison to any previous extended war period).If that makes you sad, it makes me long for a country that used to think that there is no price we will not pay for freedom.
|
|
| | | 620 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 03:09
|
I refuse to sit idly by
Then don't. Enlist to go to Iraq or Afghanistan. Join the border patrol. Become a cop. But spare us there is no price we will not pay for freedom BS.
|
|
| | | 621 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 03:32
|
That's BS. I don't have to be a serviceman to appreciate their service. I'd rather educate people so they don't make crap arguments against our people who do. That's my service. What's yours?
I can only speak now in this country if I've done the job? Are you an oil-driller? Better shut up on energy policy. Are you an economist? Better shut up on economic policy. The men and women who fight for our freedom do so so that others can be free to pursue what leads them to fulfillment.
Spare me your "if you haven't done the job, you aren't allowed to speak of it bullshit." If that was the case, why not only allow them to vote. Because you'd lose every election that's why. Because I speak for the majority of our servicemen and women, as polls of them repeatedly show I do.
Ans next time we talk about media bias, shut the hell up because you have never been in the media. And you have never done Ann Coulter's job, so get out of the thread about her. Such a specious argument from an otherwise intelligent person.
You truly are a leftist if your modus-operandi is to stifle people who disagree with you.
|
|
| | | 622 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 03:55
|
I can only speak now in this country if I've done the job?
You can speak all you want, since that's what you do. You said you wouldn't sit idly by. That assumes action, other than typing with extra aggravation.
You truly are demented to launch into a diatribe(complete with the obligatory leftists, as if there were any left/right dichotomy) without comprehending the meaning of your own words. Talk about pussiyfication.
|
|
| | | 623 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 04:40
|
No. You attempt to stifle speech by anyone who's not in favor of the war by saying you can't talk if you haven't served. But you refuse to live by those ideals yourself.
Writing is not action? Thoughts don't have meaning and influence?
You say you think for yourself depending on the issue. But yet you nearly always line up with the anti-Bush left.
You tell me I can't talk unless I've done the job and then accuse me of going on a diatribe? Please. Live by your words or don't put them out there.
I've never attacked you until you tried to put a limitation on my free speech, by saying I shouldn't be talking unless I've done the work. My stomach disease kept me from being allowed to enlist. But even if I wasn't willing to fight, I'm always willing to talk up freedom.
|
|
| | | 624 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 08:35
|
All the precedent that is ever needed took place under your probable hero FDR.
Justification for your absolutely erroneous assumption, comes from ......where exactly?
|
|
| | | 625 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 08:38
|
really azd,...reqarding the above, it is painfully clear that it is your azz speaking and not an active intellect. 'pussified', 'pansiness'...typical BS garbage from one who doesnt wear and hasnt worn the uniform. You dont have a clue dude...man up and admit as much.
|
|
| | | 626 | Tree
ID: 87998 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 09:33
|
I refuse to sit idly by while you people reduce our honorable war heroes to victims, speak of them as mere 'kids dying,' when they are the most highly-trained, highly-effective fighting force the world has ever seen. There was no draft here. These men and women were willing to pay the ultimate price for the American people. And the fact that a miniscule amount of them died is a blessing (in comparison to any previous extended war period).If that makes you sad, it makes me long for a country that used to think that there is no price we will not pay for freedom.
ya know, f*ck you for that pandering, posturing, right wing radio talking points bull$hit, because that's all it is. a big, steaming pile of bull$hit. and an anti-american pile of bull$hit at that.
our government does CRAP to support these people when they come back mere shells of humans. i'm even more furious about the treatment of our soldiers after having it affect me personally, as i alluded to in another thread.
additionally, there is no blessing in ANY of those soldiers dying. NOT ONE TINY BLESSING, because none of them had to die in a war we had no business starting. we BECAME our enemies by starting a war with a sovereign nation that was not any threat to us in any way.
and let's call a spade a spade. you're not a hero because you die. as the phrase goes, "it's not how they died that made them heroes, it's how they lived," and quite frankly, i'm sure some of our war dead were true scumbags. i'm also sure the majority of them were good people, and many, many of them scared kids who didn't have much of a choice.
no one is reducing them to anything. you're just putting them on a pedestal because you believe that killing for your beliefs is acceptable.
|
|
| | | 627 | Perm Dude
ID: 397487 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 09:43
|
I'd rather educate people so they don't make crap arguments against our people who do.
This is just nonsense, azd. No one is arguing about the soldiers. Not one single person. That doesn't stop you from getting offended by an argument not being made.
You want to support the troops? Then make sure that they get the best possible care when they return. By any standard that's not happening. Not even close. But the fact that you are spending your time trying to convince people otherwise is all that needs to be said about your service to these men and women--they are just political pawns for you.
|
|
| | | 628 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 11:38
|
I've never attacked you until you tried to put a limitation on my free speech, by saying I shouldn't be talking unless I've done the work
Besides being an intentional distortion of fact(nowhere did I put a limitation on your free speech or say you shouldn't talk), you did nothing to support your statement that opponents of the war are pussies who would never pay a price for freedom.
That would entail you providing details as to how the Iraq war is connected to your freedoms. Rather than attempting to provide a coherent arguement in support of your position, you retreat to your default position, accusations and distortions. Calling someone a leftist doesn't enhance your position. Whining that your free speech is being stifled doesn't enhance your position. It just makes you look weak, or pussified if you will.
|
|
| | | 629 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 12:37
|
You want to support the troops? Then make sure that they get the best possible care when they return. By any standard that's not happening.
Yes, the new standard of the left for supporting the troops. Not making sure that you support the job they do, not making sure that you don't fight against the position of the majority of them on the worthiness of the war, not making sure not to call them murderers. No, the only way to support the troops is to support greater health care benefits.
I visit the VA Hospital in Phoenix a few times a year. A more quality place I have not seen. Obviously it varies throughout the country.
How about you try supporting the troops by supporting their mission?
|
|
| | | 630 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 12:38
|
ya know, f*ck you for that pandering, posturing, right wing radio talking points bull$hit, because that's all it is. a big, steaming pile of bull$hit. and an anti-american pile of bull$hit at that.
And they talk about the intelligence of my comments.
|
|
| | | 631 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 12:43
|
rah-rahhing a corrupt administration, is NOT supporting the troops azd. Not in any way, shape or form.
|
|
| | | 632 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 12:52
|
sarge: Justification for your absolutely erroneous assumption, comes from ......where exactly? Not exactly a scholar of recent American history, are you?
War Powers: Is Bush Making History
In the case of another wartime President, F.D.R. allowed more than 100,000 Japanese and Japanese Americans to be herded into detention centers. Acting in an era when Jim Crow still reigned, the Supreme Court upheld these racially charged detentions. In 1988 Congress enacted a law that officially apologized to surviving detainees and offered symbolic reparations, but the Supreme Court has not yet squarely overruled these precedents. Bush has detained many fewer people than F.D.R., has limited his detentions to aliens, and claims specific reasons for suspecting each detainee. Legally, these detentions may hold up. But morally, targeting voteless aliens raises questions: Who are these people, and what are they suspected of? How many are being held without criminal charges? In its defense, the Administration may argue that if an alien is released and leaves the country, getting him back later as a defendant or a witness may be impossible.
F.D.R. also used military courts to try a few Nazi saboteurs found on American soil. But these trials were for violations of the laws of war after Congress had formally declared war. Although Congress has blessed Bush's Afghanistan campaign, it has not formally declared war. This difference may matter to civilian judges down the road."
Interesting that hatred for Bush, but the love of a man who interned an entire group of citizens in our own country.
|
|
| | | 633 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 12:57
|
not much in the way of deductive reasoning are you? Where do you get the idea that I idolize FDR? FTR, it is my opinion that the greatest President this nation has ever seen, was one each Republicn Abraham Lincoln. He who held the nation together from a war within.
|
|
| | | 634 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:07
|
How about you try supporting the troops by supporting their mission?
How about you providing context as to how this mission is connected to your freedoms?
Speaking of freedoms, you had a golden opportunity to comment on the situation in South Ossetia, and freedom for the people there who have opposed from the the beginning being part of Georgia, fought for their independence in the early 90s, set up their own government independent of Tbilisi, only to see Georgian troops and tanks roll into their capital city on a mission to reclaim the autonomous region.
Your in depth analysis?
Go Bulldogs.
Is this Ann Coulter-style humor or an admission not only of ignorance, but lack of concern about an estimated 1400 Ossetian civilians killed at the hands of the Georgian offensive....or both?
|
|
| | | 635 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:09
|
you did nothing to support your statement that opponents of the war are pussies who would never pay a price for freedom.
That would entail you providing details as to how the Iraq war is connected to your freedoms. Rather than attempting to provide a coherent arguement (sic) in support of your position, you retreat to your default position, accusations and distortions.
I am becoming concerned about your ability to comprehend what you read. I never claimed part one, and as for freedoms, mine are not enhanced at all by Iraqis being free. But theirs will be.
Either way, Pancho using two variations of the term pussification (poorly, I might add) in the space of two posts makes this an instant classic, I think.
And all without touching the substance of my comments, because being a pretty smart guy himself, he knows that I accurately depicted exactly what he does.
|
|
| | | 636 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:13
|
Speaking of freedoms, you had a golden opportunity to comment on the situation in South Ossetia, and freedom for the people there who have opposed from the the beginning being part of Georgia, fought for their independence in the early 90s, set up their own government independent of Tbilisi, only to see Georgian troops and tanks roll into their capital city on a mission to reclaim the autonomous region.
Your in depth analysis?
Go Bulldogs.
Is this Ann Coulter-style humor or an admission not only of ignorance, but lack of concern about an estimated 1400 Ossetian civilians killed at the hands of the Georgian offensive....or both?
Ignorance. I can't wait for college football and thought we were discussing a scrimmage.
When I cease to have the ability to laugh, I will, well... I guess I will be you.
|
|
| | | 637 | Perm Dude
ID: 397487 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:20
|
#629: Actually, we support the troops no matter what their mission. What you want us to do is support their mission no matter what--an ass-backwards proposal if there ever was one. [Did you support Clinton's use of the military? Thought not.]
You seem to confuse the two, as if not being behind a half-assed, poorly supported bad idea of an invasion is unpatriotic because it isn't "supporting the troops."
I support the troops no matter what (maybe because I have family among them, literally taking bullets for me). I support the missions when they make sense, and a poorly-supported mission to forego Afghanistan to take out Saddam was and is not in our best interest.
|
|
| | | 638 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:30
|
[Did you support Clinton's use of the military? Thought not.]
No. But I stopped whining about it after about 10 minutes. I didn't denounce him for it while our troops were in danger. Even though most Americans still have no clue it ever happened.
But the overwhelming majority of Americans supported the Iraq effort. How many millions of people live in democracy because of Clinton's War? How many will because of Bush's? Yet you compare them? (And probably think Clinton's was better.)
|
|
| | | 639 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:39
|
Well over 250k wont, because of Bushs. They wont, because they are now dead.
|
|
| | | 640 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:45
|
Which means that Bush minimized Iraqi civilian deaths (in a war) to a level somewhat below what Saddam did when he was in power (in "peacetime").
|
|
| | | 641 | Perm Dude
ID: 397487 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:47
|
But the overwhelming majority of Americans supported the Iraq effort.
Oh, man, this is a joke, right? Coulter-like satire? This Administration hid the truth, came damn close to outright lies to go to war in Iraq, and you cite support at that time for this war as proof of--what, exactly?
This is like lying to your boss and getting caught later, citing your boss' previous support for your lie as some sort of proof that you were right somehow.
Americans overwhelmingly realize that the war was a very bad idea, and they punished the GOP accordingly the last election (and will do so again, this election).
Clinton brought peace to a Yugoslavia torn apart by ethnic strife. Millions do, indeed, live in relative peace because of intervention in the United States, done over the strong objections of the GOP. And he did so quickly, with missions that were properly supported militarily.
Meanwhile, the accounting for this President's use of the military isn't looking so good.
|
|
| | | 642 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:47
|
hardly what it means at all.
|
|
| | | 643 | Tree
ID: 58737912 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 13:50
|
Yes, the new standard of the left for supporting the troops. Not making sure that you support the job they do, not making sure that you don't fight against the position of the majority of them on the worthiness of the war, not making sure not to call them murderers. No, the only way to support the troops is to support greater health care benefits.
you really don't know jack $hit about the left, do you.
i would wager that many of those on the left here support the soldiers in everything they do, legally.
How about you try supporting the troops by supporting their mission?
see, that's not the same thing. supporting the troops is one thing. supporting a mission - one that has changed scope so many times i'm not even sure if the soldier's know what it is anymore.
so, how many people do you know in the military? i lost a girlfriend because of the PTSD she suffered in Iraq.
my best friend in HS has been gung ho military since he was 17 years old - over 20 years ago. he's an officer now, and has always been rah rah rah let's go to war.
but ya know what, HE HATES *THIS* WAR, because there is no rhyme nor reason to be fighting.
he does not believe in what we are doing for one second. yet he fully supports the soldiers, because they are his friends, his comrades, his countrymen. you can hate the message without hating the messenger, but that's something clearly lost on the right wing america-hating side of things.
|
|
| | | 644 | DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:11
|
But the overwhelming majority of Americans supported the Iraq effort. How many millions of people live in democracy because of Clinton's War? How many will because of Bush's?
Kudos on using our military to democratize the Sudan, China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and others. Really fine work.
Because the stated rationales for the war in Iraq (and we all know what those are) have largely been proven as BS, it becomes necessary to invent a new rationale ("bringing democracy") to justify the disposal of our economic capital, our political credibility, and the lives of thousands.
Of course, that same rationale, if it justified war in Iraq, would equally well apply to many other areas (including the conflict in Georgia). The pro-Iraq war advocates show their level of disingenuousness when they fail to advocate bringing democracy to these other regions as well.
|
|
| | | 645 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:24
|
The pro-Iraq war advocates show their level of disingenuousness when they fail to advocate bringing democracy to these other regions as well.
I guess it's a good thing I've never done that.
And Bush's speeches before the war carried no message of bringing freedom to the Iraqi people? Who's being disingenuous?
|
|
| | | 646 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:25
|
I never claimed part one, and as for freedoms, mine are not enhanced at all by Iraqis being free. But theirs will be.
And the fact that a miniscule amount of them died is a blessing (in comparison to any previous extended war period).If that makes you sad, it makes me long for a country that used to think that there is no price we will not pay for freedom.
Let me get this straight.
Your idea of freedom would be Arizona being occupied by 150,000 foreign troops as well as tens of thousands of private mercenaries who can lawfully kill Arizonans with impunity. Your idea of freedom is checkpoints between blast-walled Phoenix and blast-walled Tempe, between blast-walled Tempe and blast-walled Chandler, between blast-walled Chandler and blast-walled Mesa and between blast-walled Mesa and blast-walled Scottsdale. Your idea of freedom is a million Arizonans forced to flee Arizona to live in refugee tent camps in the California and New Mexico deserts. Your idea of freedom is allowing Mexico to bomb the Southeastern corner of Arizona because Mexico says there are terrorists there that use this area as a staging ground for attacks in Mexico.
Is that what you mean by freedoms?
|
|
| | | 647 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:29
|
If the situation prior to such occupation was as un-free as Iraq was, and those things were temporary and offered a possible free future, yes. Our founding fathers didn't think it wasn't worth it, thank God.
|
|
| | | 648 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:37
|
so, how many people do you know in the military?
The son and daughter-in-law of my personal best friend and minister. The 28-year-old I met at ASU who served three tours in Iraq, hates the was, loves to debate it with me and has the utmost respect for my opinions, while disagreeing with many of them. Congressional medal of honor winner Fred Ferguson, of Phoenix, who I have written stories about in the paper. Two other kids from my church whose families I am close to.
Is that also a requirement for being able to speak on the subject?
|
|
| | | 649 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:48
|
If the situation prior to such occupation was as un-free as Iraq was, and those things were temporary and offered a possible free future, yes.
And with THAT, azdbacker has left reality. You will be a big hit in Conservative Bloggerdom, they love made up shit like this. See you later, or maybe not at all.
|
|
| | | 650 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:51
|
Yeah, I can see why azdbacker hates the left wing biased MSM, they don't talk enough about how "un-free" Iraq was during Saddam's time and don't focus entirely upon how free the future will be.
WE ARE ABOUT TO WIN! WE ARE ABOUT TO WIN!!!! USA! USA! (Boy, are those liberals are going to be steamed!)
|
|
| | | 651 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:53
|
And this is the reasoned debate that's supposed to shut me up?
|
|
| | | 652 | DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 14:54
|
The pro-Iraq war advocates show their level of disingenuousness when they fail to advocate bringing democracy to these other regions as well.
I guess it's a good thing I've never done that.
I guess the question is, why aren't you? Why are you NOT advocating sending troops into these other areas I've mentioned with the same ferocity that you defend that reason for Iraq? If it's a valid reason there, it ought to be a valid reason elsewhere... right?
And Bush's speeches before the war carried no message of bringing freedom to the Iraqi people? Who's being disingenuous?
You are making this too easy for me.
It sure wasn't the headliner of the speech, that's for sure: Bush's Declaration of War Speech
25 paragraphs in all. Doing a quick Ctrl+F for "free" (not even "freedom"--this would capture that too) shows the first hit in paragraph 13. (Interestingly, that's the same paragraph that the first use of the word "torture" is located. Coincidence?)
I must conclude that either this was not a primary reason for declaring war, or that presidential speechwriters suffered from a terrible case of "burying the lead". Or maybe the pages just got mixed up.
Which is, of course, only one half of the argument.
The second half is that, if declaring war and invading other nations because we don't like them and they are not democracies is a Good Thing, why >b>aren't we doing it anywhere else? Is it because the cost is too great?
|
|
| | | 653 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 15:04
|
I guess the question is, why aren't you? Why are you NOT advocating sending troops into these other areas I've mentioned with the same ferocity that you defend that reason for Iraq? If it's a valid reason there, it ought to be a valid reason elsewhere... right?
I suppose it's a matter of priorities. After 9/11, first priority had to be the Middle East. You won't find me objecting to the rest that you mentioned. Can we finish winning this one first, please?
As to your last sentence, for me it's because there wouldn't be any support for it. I suppose you want me to say that costs have to be weighed, which you can say directly counters my earlier 'no price we will not pay for freedom' argument. But surely America's freedom rates a little higher on our list of priorities than another country does. Beyond that, it's a matter of priorities and what the rest of the country is willing to go along with. For the most part, it is a little less-caring about others' freedom than I am, and I can live with that.
|
|
| | | 654 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 15:26
|
After 9/11, first priority had to be the Middle East.
SA maybe, given that most of the 9/11 terrorist were from SA. Else WHY the ME??? Afghanistan is where AQ ran out of.
Can we finish winning this one first, please?
Precisely what we "liberals" hold re Afghanistan before going into Iraq et al.
|
|
| | | 655 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 15:33
|
Precisely what we "liberals" hold re Afghanistan before going into Iraq et al.
A reasonable point of view. Why must you do it so hysterically that you can't accept the opinion that says America is big enough to do both at once?
|
|
| | | 656 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 15:37
|
because we havent and we arent. We had OBL semi-cornered, pulled out and diverted to Iraq. Now, we dont know where he is and accorind to a televised speech given by shrub back in Apr '04..."I dont know where he is and frankly I dont much care where he is...."
|
|
| | | 657 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 15:37
|
If the situation prior to such occupation was as un-free as Iraq was
Now we're getting somewhere, a topic that can actually be discussed and debated, perhaps even civilly.
Prior to the occupation, the three provinces of Arbil, Dohak and Sulimaniya were free, functioning with their own government and their own security forces thanks to the decade long no-fly zone.
There was a flourishing Christian community in Baghdad and Assyrian Christian communities in Mosul, Kirkuk and Tal Afar.
In Shiite-dominated areas, kiosks that sold music and/or liquor were protected from radical Islamic fundamentalists, and women were generally given greater latitude in dress and rights than in, say, Saudi Arabia.
Of course that's not to say that freedoms in some areas, especially political, were basically non-existent.
However, the unintended consequences of the invasion and occupation in regard to freedoms that we take for granted in this country is a subject that isn't as cut and dried as it might appear, in light of the purple finger images.
The two most powerful political parties, and the parties with the most representatives in the Parliament aren't really political parties, but religious parties: the Supreme Islamic Iraq Council and the Islamic Dawa Party. If Islamic fundamentalism is your idea of freedom, then these guys fit the bill. After SIIC and DAWA, the most influential Shiite entity is the Sadrists, led by freedom-loving Moqtada al-Sadr.
Since all Sunni politicians belonged to the Baath Party pre-occupation, and they were outlawed, the Sunnis had to basically start from scratch. There doesn't appear to be any widespread political leadership among the Sunnis at present.
The Kurds are insistent that a resolution on Kirkuk becoming annexed into Kurdistan be put to a vote, which is currently the main roadblock to Iraq holding regional elections, imperative for true representation in Iraq, if such a thing is possible. Turkey and Iran continue to bomb and shell areas of Kurdistan in an effort to eradicate Kurdish guerilla groups that represent severely oppressed Kurds in those countries.
So, it's complicated and volatile.
A possible free future?
Anything's possible, but I don't hold much optimism for the Shiite areas escaping an Islamic fundamentalist future. If the Sunnis can get an economic foothold and regional organization, there is strong hope for their future. Ironically, this may be the result of the one entity entirely defeated in the war.
The Kurds should be held as a shining example of a people who have suffered and persevered to create, by ME standards, a working democracy. IMO, it's unconscionable to force them to remain in a highly fractured and dysfunctional union with Arabs.
|
|
| | | 658 | DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 15:45
|
I suppose it's a matter of priorities. After 9/11, first priority had to be the Middle East. You won't find me objecting to the rest that you mentioned. Can we finish winning this one first, please?
Sorry--I didn't realize that Saudi Arabia had been relocated from that region. I'll update my atlas.
Now, I admit to not following things all THAT closely, but I'm pretty sure that the guy primarily responsible for 9/11 was holed up somewhere in Afghanistan, or maybe Pakistan. Let me check my atlas again. Nope, neither of these are provinces of Iraq!
As to your last sentence, for me it's because there wouldn't be any support for it. I suppose you want me to say that costs have to be weighed, which you can say directly counters my earlier 'no price we will not pay for freedom' argument.
That would be the honest thing to do.
And really, it's the crux of the argument, isn't it? Those who continue to justify the Iraq war based on "bringing democracy" and "removing the really bad man from power" are ignoring the fact that the reason we GOT into war in the first place was much more than just that.
In short, please pick one of these:
1. Invading another country only for the purpose of bringing democracy to the country, and/or removing a leader that we deem evil, is an admirable use of force. The only reason to not have invaded the other states I mentioned (and I even left off North Korea and Syria--founding members and Grand Poobahs of the Axis of Evil!) is because our army is all tuckered out. We'll go kill them soon enough. We picked the one halfway around the globe that wasn't actively involved in genocide because it was more conveniently located.
2. Invading another country only for the purpose of bringing democracy to the country, and/or removing a leader that we deem evil, is NOT an admirable use of force. We need additional legitimate reasons for invading other nations besides the fact that we don't like them.
Y'all started off with #2, but when the additional reasons were found out to be bogus, rather than admitting you were wrong, you shifted to #1.
Can we finish winning this one first, please?
Let's see... evil dictator removed... "check".
Democracy in place... well, they had parliamentary elections as far back as 2005... I'll call that "check".
So, what else you got?
|
|
| | | 659 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 15:50
|
PV - That's the kind of post that I used to enjoy so much from you. Excellent info.
Hell, our own founding required a group holding vastly differing viewpoints to come together against all odds and peaceably live with one another. We had people who wanted a theocracy of sorts, people who wanted freedom of religion and people who couldn't care less.
Whether or not the situation in Iraq is perfect for a free future, I think it is clear that what emerges will be better than what preceded it, thanks to the efforts of our military.
I lack the knowledge to discuss the finer details of the different groups there, but appreciate the analysis you put forth.
|
|
| | | 660 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 16:04
|
I think it is clear that what emerges will be better than what preceded it, thanks to the efforts of our military.
Ah, no, far from clear.
|
|
| | | 661 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 16:19
|
In short, please pick one of these:
Me, I'm of the Nuke the Moon mindset on deterring acts of aggression towards the United States, so I couldn't care less. I will remind you though, that the reasons you ignore still exist, as stated in Bush's speech that you linked to:
For more than a decade, the United States and other nations have pursued patient and honorable efforts to disarm the Iraqi regime without war. (This, for me is the only one that is needed. One of the agreements that allowed Saddam to stay in power was his agreement to comply fully with weapons inspections. He should have been taken out with no warning immediately after his first violation.)
That regime pledged to reveal and destroy all its weapons of mass destruction as a condition for ending the Persian Gulf War in 1991.
Since then, the world has engaged in 12 years of diplomacy. We have passed more than a dozen resolutions in the United Nations Security Council. We have sent hundreds of weapons inspectors to oversee the disarmament of Iraq.
It has uniformly defied Security Council resolutions demanding full disarmament. Over the years, U.N. weapon inspectors have been threatened by Iraqi officials, electronically bugged, and systematically deceived.
This regime has already used weapons of mass destruction against Iraq's neighbors and against Iraq's people.
The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the Middle East. It has a deep hatred of America and our friends. And it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda.
|
|
| | | 662 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 16:20
|
If you liked that, azdbacker, you should really like this.
I actually agree with most of Ann Coulter's last two columns about John Edwards. The media was slow, maybe even negligible in covering the Edwards story, relying on a supermarket tabloid to do the footwork. And there's little consolation in Edward's lying to the public while a candidate, as if this story would never come to light if he had been the nominee, even if he had confessed his indiscretions to his wife in 2006.
But, rather than holding up Haggard as a story the media immediately pounced on while still in the rumour stage, she had to throw in that nobody outside his parish had ever heard of him.
Maybe that seems like a small indiscretion, but there is a huge body of the public that doesn't follow current events with the passion that we do. There's probably a huge audience of Coulter's that doesn't know that Haggard was one of the most recognizable and influential Evangelical leaders in the world.
But the premise of the column is hard to oppose.
|
|
| | | 663 | Tree
ID: 58737912 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 16:46
|
The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the Middle East.
this shoe fits for nearly every country in the Middle East, from our allies to our enemies. And yes, even Israel, who i support nearly blindly.
if this is reason to attack, then you might as well be advocating turning the middle east into a parking lot.
|
|
| | | 664 | azdbacker
ID: 14713820 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 16:54
|
if this is reason to attack, then you might as well be advocating turning the middle east into a parking lot.
Don't tempt me.
|
|
| | | 665 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sat, Aug 09, 2008, 20:29
|
oh no please...tell us who we as a nation, have the innate right to invade, simply because YOU dont like their internal politics.
|
|
| | | 666 | Perm Dude
ID: 20815719 Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 23:52
|
PA student GOP leader resigns over Obama lips flap
Heh. Couldn't resist that title.
I don't know this guy but I know people who do, and they tell me he would have been right at home in the 60's with his confrontational political antics intended, more than anything, do draw attention to himself.
|
|
| | |
| | | 668 | Boldwin
ID: 34845818 Thu, Sep 11, 2008, 02:51
|
PD
Do you agree with the commenters there that republicans all over america can't wait to talk like that?
That's not the sense I get.
|
|
| | |
| | | 670 | Boldwin
ID: 548152320 Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 23:27
|
It ignored research showing voter fraud to be extraordinarily rare
This researcher aparently didn't look at big city Democrat machines because everyone living there knows the maxim is 'vote early, vote often'.
Nope, any challenge must be racially motivated of course. *yawn*
|
|
| | | 671 | Perm Dude
ID: 49822228 Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 23:34
|
everyone living there knows...
Leave it to a GOP apologist to go with the "everyone" line rather than actual facts.
|
|
| | | 672 | Boldwin
ID: 548152320 Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 23:43
|
Voter fraud in big city machines is a stone cold actual fact.
|
|
| | | 673 | Boldwin
ID: 548152320 Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 23:44
|
Correction: Democrat voter fraud in big city machines is a stone cold actual fact.
|
|
| | | 674 | Perm Dude
ID: 49822228 Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 23:54
|
So it should be easy to prove, then, yes? Go ahead--find out this widespread voter fraud.
|
|
| | | 675 | Seattle Zen
ID: 358591721 Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 23:59
|
Democrat voter fraud in big city machines is a stone cold actual fact.
Perpetuating the myth. Just another of democracy's willing executioners.
|
|
| | | 676 | Boldwin
ID: 548152320 Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 10:12
|
Is that a pencil lead sticking out from under your finger nail or are you growing talons?
|
|
| | |
| | | 678 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 09:11
|
Lots of Infighting in the GOP...
Participants in a meeting late Thursday afternoon that Bush had at the White House with congressional leaders and presidential candidates John McCain and Barack Obama said it descended into arguments. The disagreements were so deep-seated that some lawmakers wondered aloud just who — and how many — negotiators would show up for the resumption of talks later Friday morning at the Capitol.
"I didn't know I was going to be the referee for an internal GOP ideological civil war," Frank, D-Mass., said on CBS's "The Early Show."
|
|
| | | 679 | Seattle Zen
ID: 358591721 Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 11:08
|

The greatest thing about this drawing is the group of skeptical people could be every single group in America: Liberals, AM talk show radio audience, fiscal conservatives, Rastafarians...
This drama over an imposing "meltdown" could not come at a worst time for the Rebumblekins.
|
|
| | | 680 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 11:16
|
The greatest thing about this drawing is the group of skeptical people could be every single group in America: Liberals, AM talk show radio audience, fiscal conservatives, Rastafarians...
This drama over an imposing "meltdown" could not come at a worst time for the Rebumblekins.
too bad the lemmings in the democratic party are sucking up every word Bush says and following him off the cliff.
|
|
| | | 681 | Seattle Zen
ID: 358591721 Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 11:02
|
What does the future of the Republican Party look like: Bleak, bleak, bleak. (For boikin and others in the Republican base, that means "not good")
But over the past few decades, the Republican Party has driven away people who live in cities, in highly educated regions and on the coasts. This expulsion has had many causes. But the big one is this: Republican political tacticians decided to mobilize their coalition with a form of social class warfare. Democrats kept nominating coastal pointy-heads like Michael Dukakis so Republicans attacked coastal pointy-heads. Over the past 15 years, the same argument has been heard from a thousand politicians and a hundred television and talk-radio jocks. The nation is divided between the wholesome Joe Sixpacks in the heartland and the oversophisticated, overeducated, oversecularized denizens of the coasts. The Republicans have alienated whole professions. Lawyers now donate to the Democratic Party over the Republican Party at 4-to-1 rates. With doctors, it’s 2-to-1. With tech executives, it’s 5-to-1. With investment bankers, it’s 2-to-1. It took talent for Republicans to lose the banking community. Conservatives are as rare in elite universities and the mainstream media as they were 30 years ago. The smartest young Americans are now educated in an overwhelmingly liberal environment. Take note, Baldwin. Universities and Media do not employ as many conservatives as you may like perhaps because conservatives disdain these institutions, not the other way around.
|
|
| | | 682 | Boldwin
ID: 5937910 Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 17:34
|
Tell it to David Horowitz. Lol!
It is entirely the result of 60's radicals taking over universities and gaining control of presidencies and the tenure process.
|
|
| | | 683 | Perm Dude
ID: 19929108 Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 18:30
|
Yeah, that's it. It has nothing to do with the rejection of the GOP of the "elites."
|
|
| | | 684 | Seattle Zen
ID: 358591721 Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 21:32
|

How true. Let's hope we will never see who else McCain would want on his team.
|
|
| | | 685 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 22:11
|
Naturally SZ believes every scam artist in Acorn and similar groups, would make better advisors.
|
|
| | | 686 | Seattle Zen
ID: 358591721 Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 22:45
|
Banana slugs would make better advisers.
|
|
| | | 687 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:24
|
There's a name for his cabinet.
Micheal Moore can dress up as a banana slug and be their mascot.
|
|
| | |
| | | 689 | walk
ID: 181472714 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 09:42
|
Christopher Buckley and Why he Quit National Review
I also saw him interviewed last night on MSNBC. I think he sums up the incompetence well, and clearly states that at least for him, it does not represent true conservative values.
|
|
| | | 690 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 14:28
|
He did more than that, he endorsed Obama.
Which is pure intellectual treason in view of where Obama comes from. He cannot make the claim 'conservatism left him'.
He could make the claim that the republican administration and a majority of republican legislators left conservativism and be correct but he wouldn't be the most credible source to make it.
National Review in fact took a giant pivot, not a move left but a pivot away from conservatism when they introduced and legitimated Leo Strauss.
Conservatives don't back a true follower of Saul 'the red' Alinsky and Christopher Buckley is only speaking for himself.
|
|
| | | 691 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 14:47
|
National Review in fact took a giant pivot, not a move left but a pivot away from conservatism when they introduced and legitimated Leo Strauss.
many of the current crop of people calling themselves Republicans moved away from conservatism when they started genuflected to Bush.
|
|
| | | 692 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 16:04
|
You just said that cause you knew I would have to be in perfect agreement with you.
|
|
| | | 693 | Perm Dude
ID: 159361515 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 16:36
|
It is a huge mistake to believe Obama is, in any way, a "true follower" of Saul Alinsky. And it is a mistake to comment on how Buckley backs Obama without bother to read (let alone comment directly on) his reasons for doing so.
|
|
| | | 694 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 17:17
|
It is a huge mistake to believe Obama is, in any way, a "true follower" of Saul Alinsky.
And what do you base that on? Obama has done nothing but live, breathe and teach Alinsky.
|
|
| | | 695 | Perm Dude
ID: 159361515 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 17:23
|
Would you know anyone who is a kinda-follower? How about someone who doesn't trash Alinsky's work? Why not just skip the space "truefollower" since you are unable to distinguish.
Enough with the semantic argument on my part.
What, exactly, is your problem with Alinsky? Besides him being a liberal, of course. Be specific.
|
|
| | | 696 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 20:05
|
My main problem with someone who teaches exactly how to conduct a communist revolution is that they just might produce communism.
My main problem with communism, besides the fact that it makes everyone poor and unhappy, is the inevitable gulags.
|
|
| | | 697 | Seattle Zen
ID: 358591721 Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 23:41
|

Splitting themselves into insignificance. The Democrats were there just six years ago. The pendulum swings quickly these days.
|
|
| | | 698 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 10:01
|
My main problem with communism, besides the fact that it makes everyone poor and unhappy, is the inevitable gulags.
sort of like Gitmo, eh?
|
|
| | | 699 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 10:06
|
When they work to death a third of the inmates of Gitmo every year then Gitmo will resemble a gulag,
...you moron.
|
|
| | | 700 | Perm Dude
ID: 41935169 Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 11:43
|
Via Andrew Sullivan:
|
|
| | | 701 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 11:50
|
i still love you Baldwin, because you're still as cute as can be with your little insults. they're endearing.
you're that crazy, homeless guy on the corner, ranting nonsense to whoever walks past. well, except that i think you have a home - but the rest totally applies.
|
|
| | | 702 | Perm Dude
ID: 41935169 Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 12:12
|
Update: Looks like the flier used Bin Laden as its model. Man, close up like that, it really looks like Barack Obama. Wonder if that was the point?
|
|
| | | 703 | Perm Dude
ID: 41935169 Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 11:03
|
CA Republicans have some problems with blacks
The head of the community group saw no problem with passing this along to her community group:
Hmmm. Why don't black feel welcome in the GOP?
Meanwhile, the official GOP web site for Sacramento County had this up:
|
|
| | | 704 | Tree
ID: 299451811 Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 13:26
|
Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann presenting a VERY scary scenario.
if this is truly how more and more Republicans feel, then hopefully, the entire party will disappear. granted, i believe she appeals to the more radical and non-thinking members of her party - including some of the posters here on this board who claim no party affiliation - but ultimately, is a small fraction of the population.
still, it's a radical and scary element.
|
|
| | | 705 | Boldwin
ID: 44916136 Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 19:19
|
still, it's a radical and scary element
The amazing things is that Tree and the rest of his party is not talking about Ayers when they say that.
|
|
| | | 706 | Perm Dude
ID: 189181713 Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 20:47
|
Why would we? He doesn't represent Obama. And never did.
|
|
| | | 707 | Tree
ID: 559491723 Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 21:00
|
never could stay on point, could you Baldwin. you are the red herring poster child. then again, it might be all the signals your tin hat brings in.
no doubt, you support Bachmann's suggestions...
|
|
| | | 708 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 09:21
|
Times of London Recap on Future of Republican Party and Palin
An interesting yet seemingly two-sides of the mouth view on the republican party and Sarah Palin. I cannot make sense of the article's inherent contradictions, but it is interesting from a view outside the U.S.
|
|
| | | 709 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 11:29
|
walk -- it is an interesting article. I see a lot of truth in it ... I don't see the inherent contradictions you're talking about. To the extent he offers "on the one hand and on the other" sort of explanations, I think he's just reflecting the fact that our opinions about her may have been crafted by the circumstances surrounding her nomination.
Suppose, for example, that the roles had been reversed, and that the first splash on the national stage for Obama was his nomination for VP. He wouldn't have been able to control his biographical story (take away his books, as well), and he would have been ripped to shreds. I think his intelligence would still come through, and he would have survived better than Palin, but he would have been scarred much worse than he has been through this campaign.
I'm in the Brooks/Noonan Palintology camp. I recognize the possibility that she was likely mishandled, and that she was facing a very difficult task. Nevertheless, I can't excuse the Couric interview. Remember also that I wrote -- during the week of her nomination, I believe -- that her beauty-queenish answers to achieve the Governorship were wholly unsatisfactory. That was her at her best on her own playing field, not in the cacaphony of national debate.
She'll never be more than a parrot for baseline orthodoxy. That's a recipe for disaster almost anytime, but especially true when the baseline orthodoxy has a wholly out of date narrative.
Lastly, this also suggests that the days of picking a wildcard VP are done.
|
|
| | | 711 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 11:37
|
Here's what I said Sat., Sept. 6, at the height of Palinmania, right after her convention speech ... edited: link
Clips from her gubernatorial debates don't excite me ... seems like she gives sort of beauty queenish answers that are somewhat vague and circular ... I wouldn't be too worried about the debates if I was Biden. ... If she has an array of zingers pre-canned and actually launches one successfully, however, I'll be surprised.
Bottom line: she's good enough to get by on the campaign. But if I were on the radical right, I'm becoming convinced that I wouldn't be hyping her as the second Obama. ... Obama's a proven quick study ... I doubt she is. Hope I'm wrong. This still has a chance to lose McCain the election.
Subsequent events have simply confirmed the fears I voiced at that time. And she will be at the heart of the Republican in-fighting, at least for awhile. But the divisions are deeper than just her. The really interesting thing is Obama will get to choose some of the Republican battleground by his selection of agenda items.
|
|
| | | 712 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 11:59
|
Very prescient, Madman.
|
|
| | | 713 | Boldwin
ID: 419402022 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 16:55
|
This is all very off base.
McCain's campaign never had a breath of life until she entered it and his own campaign style never generated an iota of traction until he started copying her.
|
|
| | | 714 | Tree
ID: 559491723 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 17:54
|
traction generally means going forward Baldwin.
the McCain-Palin ticket has gone backwards.
what planet are you on these day1?!? holy criminey it's kinda freaky.
|
|
| | | 715 | Boldwin
ID: 419402022 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 18:32
|
The credit crisis has not been kind to McCain. The media have been off the charts unkind to Palin.
Nevertheless there is no question that any objective reading of the mood at McCain's rallies will tell you Palin is the only thing keeping his end up.
|
|
| | | 716 | Razor
ID: 11992219 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 19:21
|
Of course, it's the people who don't attend rallies that matter. And independents find Palin too unqualified to vote for.
|
|
| | | 717 | Building 7
ID: 174591519 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 20:03
|
Who is more qualified to be President or Vice-President:
A 40 year old stupid person, or A 30 year old genius
|
|
| | | 718 | Perm Dude
ID: 449352322 Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 20:22
|
The 40 year old, of course. A 30 year old is Constitutionally ineligible.
|
|
| | | 719 | Seattle Zen
ID: 358591721 Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 01:52
|
The 40 year old, of course. A 30 year old is Constitutionally ineligible.
Building 7: Phew! I'm running against that 30 year old.
Hey, let's move those ages up to a 50 year old dumb ass versus a 40 year old "genius". I'm a little tired of the way "genius" is tossed around these days; people who are extremely intelligent aren't necessarily geniuses. When I think "genius", I think Bobby Fischer. And I certainly wouldn't want to have Bobby as the president as we would likely nuke Tel Aviv if that were the case.
|
|
| | |
| | | 721 | Tree
ID: 559491723 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 12:26
|
further and further into the abyss goes the republican party - clearly the party of division, fear, and hate.
GOP: Obama would be 'a weak president'
Obama and Democrats’ politics endanger American lives. They are not qualified to lead our military and our country. was part of the call.
this was part of the article: The RNC declined to comment about the script.
of course not.
|
|
| | |
| | | 723 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 13:42
|
re:720 i feel for the rural/less educated citizens of America i guess no one is going to look out for them. I am not saying that Reps even do that now, put at least they pretend too.
|
|
| | |
| | | 725 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 22:03
|
I and Sarah disassociate ourselves from the Alaska old boy network and hope they serve every day in prison and pay every cent in fines.
Dem big city machine pols and Alaska republican insiders. Two corrupt peas in a pod.
|
|
| | | 726 | Razor
ID: 529382710 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:07
|
I am glad you have cleared up that you are not in league with the Alaska old boy network.
|
|
| | | 727 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:18
|
Walk failed to specify which republicans that that conviction would be a blow to.
|
|
| | | 728 | Razor
ID: 529382710 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:25
|
So you're a Republican.
|
|
| | | 729 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:48
|
A completely logical deduction and understandable but untrue statement.
|
|
| | | 730 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:54
|
Life is all nuance and grey area and non-manichean. You as a liberal can deal with those things, no? 8]
Just because I can clearly see which party is far and away more dishonest and produces more disfunction doesn't make me a party to the second party.
|
|
| | | 731 | Perm Dude
ID: 49910278 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 00:09
|
And yet Sarah Palin won't say that she won't vote for Stevens.
"Gotta have faith..."
|
|
| | | 732 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 00:55
|
Hey, you never know what the alternative could be. Hillary could up and move there and claim she's always been an Iditarod groupie.
|
|
| | | 733 | Tree
ID: 219262723 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 01:30
|
Just because I can clearly see which party is far and away more dishonest and produces more disfunction doesn't make me a party to the second party.
and which party is that, republican lap dog?
|
|
| | | 734 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 20:10
|
How low can you go?
Sad to see Elizabeth Dole resort to the Godless card.
|
|
| | | 735 | walk
ID: 181472714 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 14:06
|
Conservatives Cite Defeat as a Rebuke of Moderates
I would have guessed that they might have concluded that the republicans lost because they went too far right. What do I know?
What do our conservatives here think? Too accommodating to the middle or two far right?
|
|
| | | 736 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 14:23
|
money quote:
“I can tell you that the candidacy of Sarah Palin was immensely helpful — actually essential — to making this a reasonably close race,” said Morton C. Blackwell, a conservative activist. Had Mr. McCain not selected her to be his running mate, Mr. Blackwell said, “I think the Republican ticket would have fared like Senator Dole’s did back in 1996.”
In my minds eye, that paragraph shows how wrong they are.
|
|
| | | 737 | Tree
ID: 121035316 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 16:14
|
that is soooooooo cool. if that's truly what they believe, then one of two things will happen:
1. the republican party will splinter into two parties.
or
2. they'll stick together, and lose big again. and again. and again. until they realize americans will continually reject their radical agenda.
|
|
| | | 738 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 16:36
|
Well if the moderate Republicans DID break-away and linked then with the Libertarians; I think that 3rd Party would quite likely make serious advancements as THE power-party.
|
|
| | | 739 | DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 16:39
|
There was one comment there that I do agree with, at least in theory:
“Conservatives were silent when Republican Congressional leaders massively expanded government,” said Richard A. Viguerie, a longtime leader of the movement. “Going forward you are going to see conservatives look to themselves for leadership.”
Of course, the problem that if those "Republican leaders" weren't conservative, they wouldn't have been elected as congressional leaders in the first place.
It is somewhat laughable, though, that a minority party thinks it can become a majority party by driving away a significant part of their membership.
It would, however, be a welcome and significant change to have conservatives actually put their policy where their mouth is (see my other thread this morning to see where they've been for the last, oh, half-century or so).
|
|
| | | 740 | Baldwin
ID: 201045320 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 17:12
|
by driving away a significant part of their membership
The Wilsonians [Rockafeller] and the neocons [Krauthammer] have never led Republicans anywhere but to unpopularity and any success they have ever had was when they were dragging on conservative's coattails.
Republican's only hope is indeed either to splitter off from these parasites or evict the parasites. Anyone savaging Sarah is either out, or conservatives need to leave.
|
|
| | | 741 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 17:46
|
Keep believing that. They'd have a much better chance if they evicted Sarah and her ilk. Those people, once evicted, aren't going to have enough numbers to name a candidate of their own, so they will have the choice between voting for a Democrat or for the Republicans that have been in power the last eight years, or if they are really lucky some fiscal conservative who ignores them on "family values" issues. And they'll either decide that half a loaf is better than none, or they'll stay home.
I'd gleefully vote for that last type over Obama or most Democrats. If McCain had not decided to become possessed by the spirit of the Bush cronies and had actually held true to HIS principles, this would have been a much closer race (which he still would have lost).
The continued insistence on everything or nothing, us vs. them from the far-right wing (I'm looking at you, evangelicals) has led many in the middle to decide that if those are the ONLY options, they'll happily tell the evangelicals to screw off.
|
|
| | | 742 | Baldwin
ID: 201045320 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 17:51
|
Anyone who thinks McCain was the right man for the Republicans, voted Obama.
|
|
| | | 743 | Baldwin
ID: 201045320 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 17:52
|
Other than the hardcore neocons.
|
|
| | | 744 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 18:01
|
I probably would have still voted for Obama, actually. You're right about that. But it would have been close. In fact, it WAS close for me for a while.
Here's the problem that the radical right refuses to face: you're a minority even within the Republican party. (If you weren't, McCain would never have been nominated.) That means, to gain power, you are going to have to either convince everyone that the only viable alternative is the Antichrist (worked in 2004, not so much this time), or accept others into the coalition.
The neocons sure as hell aren't responsible for McCain. I hate them too, but you can't lay McCain at their feet.
|
|
| | | 745 | J-Bar
ID: 56101717 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 19:23
|
Another stimulus package, some more fiscal responsibility that is spoken of here. Just sitting here on my couch, waitin for checks to roll on in, just sittin here on my couch, wastin time.
|
|
| | | 746 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Fri, Nov 07, 2008, 19:45
|
I have no idea what you just said--but for the record, people who are able to work and have jobs available to them but choose not to work can rot in a sewer for all I care.
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 749 | Baldwin
ID: 351024115 Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 11:10
|
Where were all those traditional conservative donors when Fred Thompson went drilling for campaign donations and came up dry?
|
|
| | | 750 | Perm Dude
ID: 3610181113 Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 14:21
|
They were waiting for him to wake up.
:)
|
|
| | | 751 | Baldwin
ID: 351024115 Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 14:57
|
Any candidate with no warchest seems dead.
|
|
| | | 752 | Madman
ID: 230542010 Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 09:19
|
They'd have a much better chance if they evicted Sarah and her ilk.
I disagree, and I'm not Palin fan. The problem with Palin is simply that she's not sufficiently knowledgable and skilled. She can clearly rally the base, but can't branch to the middle. Rhetoric is also important, and she can't argue her way out of a paper bag. When Obama makes a mis-step, by having a foreign policy gaffe in a discussion with Poland, to use a recent example, could she credibly persuade people that she could do better? No.
Therefore, the problem with Palin is that she's not an appropriate *leader*, just like Harriet Miers wasn't appropriate for the SCOTUS. It's about the candidate at the end of the day. Republican recruiting has been absolutely attrocious. Couple that with retirements and strong recruiting by Democrats, and people in the middle are left to hold their nose and vote Democratic. Can't blame them, I've done it myself.
There's no reason to evict people like Palin unless they, in turn, evict others and cause on-going problems in the party. Although this may be where we end up, I'm hopeful that we aren't there now.
The key is to simply not look to someone like Palin as the savior of the party until they have demonstrated a greater aptitude. The problem with Palin was the party's desperation for new blood that led to a bad choice. This goes for Jindahl, too. Seasoning matters, especially to Republicans.
|
|
| | | 753 | Baldwin
ID: 471049135 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 07:00
|
For the first time in 32 years, Democrats got more than 50 percent of the country to vote for their candidate in a national election, and now they want to lecture the Republican Party on how to win elections. Liberal Republicans have joined them, both groups hoping no one will notice that we just lost this election by running the candidate they chose for us.
For years, New York Times columnist David Brooks has been writing mash notes to John McCain. In November 2007, he quoted an allegedly "smart-alecky" political consultant who exclaimed, in private, "You know, there's really only one great man running for president this year, and that's McCain."
"My friend's remark," Brooks somberly intoned, "had the added weight of truth."
Brooks gushed, "I can tell you there is nobody in politics remotely like him," and even threw down the gauntlet, saying: "You will never persuade me that he is not among the finest of men."
That took guts at the Times, where McCain is constantly praised by the op-ed columnists and was endorsed by the paper in the Republican primary. Even Frank Rich has hailed McCain as the "most experienced and principled" of the Republicans and said no one in either party "has more experience in matters of war than the Arizona senator" – the biggest rave issued by Rich since "Rent" opened on Broadway.
They adored McCain at the Times! Does anyone here not see a cluster of bright red flags?
In January this year, Brooks boasted of McCain's ability to attract "independents."
And then Election Day arrived, and all the liberals who had spent years praising McCain all voted for Obama. Independents voted for Palin or voted against Obama. No one outside of McCain's immediate family was specifically voting for McCain.
But now Brooks presumes to lecture Republicans about what to do next time. How about: "Don't take David Brooks' advice"?
About the same time Brooks was touting McCain's uncanny ability to attract independents, I was writing, accurately: "John McCain is Bob Dole minus the charm, conservatism and youth." - Ann Coulter who owns you, your massive blocking problem not withstanding.
|
|
| | | 754 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 10:42
|
A couple of gaping logical flaws in this piece:
1. I must have missed the Democratic primary to elect the Republican presidential nominee. To say that the Republicans "ran the candidate that 'they' chose for us" is patently absurd. The Republican party ran the candidate that the Republicans chose. That that candidate happens to be the one that Coulter agrees with the least doesn't change this. (And before you give me the "NYT bias" bit, let's point out that I thought most conservatives already thought the NYT was full of crap before 2008--so why would they suddenly pay attention to them during a primary election?)
2. Anyone who voted "for" Palin, not McCain, was never in a trillion years going to vote for Obama. They might, just possibly, have stayed home--but anyone who says that "Oh, I was going to vote for Obama instead of McCain for sure, but then that Palin came along and I just had to switch" is lying or delusional.
This all goes back to what I said a few threads ago. If the Coulter wing of the Republican party were nearly as large as it wanted to believe it was, McCain never would have been the nominee. The fact that he was should alert that wing that they are the minority within their own minority party--but the talk seems to be "oh, if we'd just had one of US in there, everyone who thought McCain was too liberal would have voted for our guy instead of Obama". Which makes zero logical sense.
|
|
| | | 755 | Tree
ID: 121035316 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 11:56
|
Ann Coulter who owns you, your massive blocking problem not withstanding.
the only think Ann Coulter owns over me is a pair of tits, and that's why you follow her every word like a drooling hound dog.
she also owns a larger readership, but not nearly large enough for them to make up a majority of their own party. people who worship Coulter and the other Right Wing pin heads who try to scream louder and still manage to say nothing, will continue to find themselves as a smaller and smaller segment of the voting population.
|
|
| | | 756 | Perm Dude
ID: 1410231313 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 14:23
|
Coulter, like many on the Right, are still in denial.
My job, for the next 4 years, is to encourage her attempts to marginalize her own party. The GOP had its butt handed to them two elections in a row now, and Coulter seems intent upon blaming Democrats for the GOP problems in winning elections.
Why does anyone even listen to her anymore? Because slamming others is easier that self-examination?
|
|
| | | 757 | Tree
ID: 121035316 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 14:35
|
i like to think of it as abject cluelessness and absolute hubris.
i'm all for the the Republicans continuing to allow the radical fringe of their party to control it. the longer they do so, they longer they'll be out of the mainstream, and the better chances this country has of improving.
|
|
| | | 758 | Razor
ID: 181051618 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 15:19
|
McCain stood very little chance of winning. But he got beat handily because he ran as a Republican and not as a moderate. He would have made it much closer had he been able to appear to more moderates. Listening to idiots like Coulter is what caused him to nominate Palin and to take more conservative stances than he is used to taking.
|
|
| | | 759 | Baldwin
ID: 471049135 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 15:58
|
Did anyone here think McCain would even come within 2% of winning? He would have lost by 10% without Palin. Maybe 20%. The base of his party would have split three ways between holding their nose and voting/staying home/voting third party. Palin at least kept them on the reservation and frankly if she wants to she can be a major fund raiser and power in the party.
|
|
| | | 760 | Razor
ID: 181051618 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 17:37
|
There are far more moderates in this country than there are right-wingers or left-wingers. McCain got blown out because he did not sufficiently appease them, not because he did not sufficiently appease his base. Palin was a net detriment to the ticket. Belie' dat.
|
|
| | | 761 | Baldwin
ID: 471049135 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 18:28
|
No, there are more people without any principles or philosophy who are just blowing in the wind, subject to every shifting whim of the zeitgeist... than there are people firmly liberal or conservative.
|
|
| | | 762 | Perm Dude
ID: 201051315 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 18:41
|
And each one gets a vote. If you don't want them, we'll take them.
They used to be called "Reagan Democrats." Their signing on to the GOP was proof to you that Reagan was right. Now that they've abandoned a self-mutilating GOP suddenly they have no ethical compass, eh?
Each of them gets a vote. And with your attitude you can count on being in the minority party for some time to come.
|
|
| | | 763 | Razor
ID: 181051618 Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 23:11
|
Baldwin thinks moderates have no principal or philosophy. Well that certainly explains why you have such a difficult time relating to or understanding most Americans.
|
|
| | | 764 | Tree
ID: 3810481322 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 00:08
|
Did anyone here think McCain would even come within 2% of winning? He would have lost by 10% without Palin. Maybe 20%.
lol. really? you still think THAT many people voted for McCain because of Palin??
|
|
| | | 765 | Baldwin
ID: 471049135 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 02:49
|
I think that 30% voted for Palin 10% voted for McCain and 8% voted against Obama.
|
|
| | | 766 | Tree
ID: 421047145 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 06:54
|
if 30 percent voted for Palin and only 10 for McCain, then the republican party is in deep, deep trouble.
|
|
| | | 767 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 10:06
|
765: If those figures were anywhere near correct, how on earth did McCain get elected via the primaries in the first place? (Use math. Show all work.)
|
|
| | | 768 | Razor
ID: 181051618 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 10:08
|
The Democrats, the Clintons and MSM did it.
|
|
| | | 769 | Frick
ID: 3410551012 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 10:13
|
I disagree, from the discussions I've had with friends I think McCain would have been closer if Palin wasn't his running mate. The choice between McCain and Obama was toss-up, looking at the VP options Palin scared them away from McCain. The majority of people in the group were well educated 30ish guys. Did most of us think she was good looking, yes. Did most of us think she was a religious psycho, yes. In the end most of them voted for Obama.
Granted this represents a very small sub-set of the population. The general though was positive when she was first announced, but as more became known about her, that the negatives quickly outweighed the positives.
|
|
| | | 770 | jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 10:26
|
I don't think McCain could have won with anybody, especially after the financial meltdown. America was just fed up with Bush and anything remotely close to him. Obama did a great job of talking about change and that is what people I know wanted to hear. Will that change be good or bad? Only time will tell. The deck is stacked against him right from the start through a nice bi-partisan financial mess. I will not be surprised if he backs off some things he promised, at least at the beginning. It only makes sense.
|
|
| | | 771 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 10:39
|
I have heard similar things from others to what Frick heard.
|
|
| | | 772 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 07:59
|
I am virtually 100% internet and rarely watch TV so perhaps this is why I have never before actually heard Governor Jindal...wow, bright future on this guy!
I borrowed this from Scott Martin's [azdbacker] Conservatism Today which has become my blog portal in the way many use instapundit. A practice I highly recommend to all. A daily journey to each of his top bloggers is rewarding. Just Sorry I can't get real excited about clicking ads, Scott, but I can get you a lotta traffic originating from your site which will hopefully add to your influence and recognition.
|
|
| | | 773 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 08:03
|
It is just too funny watching the herculean efforts the MSM is expending to bury conservatism [as exhibited by the interviewer doing Jindal], and then come back here and listen to people deny the MSM are uber-liberal partisan hacks.
|
|
| | | 774 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 08:51
|
the herculean efforts the MSM is expending to bury conservatism
You do realize that your use of terms like 'MSM' and 'neocon' are definitions that you and only you subsribe to here. Most of the time we are left to guess at how various subjects you refer to fall under those headings.
For example, in your world, MSNBC is mainstream but FOX News Channel is not. I generally assume that misnomer refers to any media with a broad reach which you believe supports anything left of center (which in your paranoia might mean anyone who might criticize Ann Coulter).
And I recently noticed that you casually referred to Charles Krauthammer as a neocon. My grip on that particular distortion of yours isn't quite as sure. I haven't been able to pin down exactly which of your "conservative" principles a rightist must violate to earn the title of neocon, or if you have diluted the definition down to assigning the term based on some gut-sense you have come to trust in yourself. Generally you present yourself as more cerebral than that so even if that's the case I can't see you admitting it.
In Krauthammer's case my best guess is that you assigned it when he came out against Palin as McCain's running mate. But perhaps it was earlier, when he supported a heavy national gas tax. Of course neither supporting a gas tax nor opposing Governor Palin's Vice Presidential candidacy, at least on the merits of his arguments for those positions, are necessarily neoconservatism at work. But that's just part of the puzzle. Care to shed any light for me?
|
|
| | | 775 | Perm Dude
ID: 431039178 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 09:41
|
Just a few years ago the "MSM" with Baldwin helping, was busy trying to bury the Democratis party. Whatever the "MSM" is.
Jindal does have a bright future in the party. Which was why he was smart enough to turn down McCain's offer of the VP spot. Palin apparently wasn't.
|
|
| | | 776 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 09:57
|
Neocons are basically liberals [Trotskyites aplenty] who have infiltrated the republican party based on a scant intersection of interests. Think Christopher Hitchens. I understand the term is confusing to people because it was deliberately constructed to confuse people. Think Leo Strauss.
Would I have a problem with someone purporting to speak for republicans who...- is a supporter of legalized abortion
- a supporter of embryonic stem cell research
- an intelligent design critic
- is a longtime advocate of radically higher energy taxes to induce conservation
- In a 2005 speech (later published in Commentary Magazine, the neocon flagship) he called neoconservatism “a governing ideology whose time has come."
- winner of Norman Lear's People for the American Way’s First Amendment Award [for attacking religion]
- his famous 'Democratic Realism' speech delivered as the Irving Kristol [father of neoconservatism] Lecture at the American Enterprise Institute
- speech writer for the Carter/Mondale campaign
- signatory to 'Project for the New American Century' which is basically a slamdunk proof of neocon leadership
Now I will admit this is a very intelligent guy but come on...he definately leans neocon. Not even seriously debatable.
|
|
| | | 777 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 09:58
|
PD
You have any evidence he was offered?
|
|
| | | 778 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:03
|
In fact the three faces I think of when I hear the word neocon are Bill Kristol, Krauthammer and Christopher Hitchens. Others may have been more influential early or more purely neocon in ideology but those are the most public faces of neoconservatism.
|
|
| | |
| | | 780 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:11
|
I'll drop you a drop of water in relief. Krauthammer is juuuust slightly less neocon than Richard Pearle.
|
|
| | | 781 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:13
|
Dude, don't even try. Leading light neocons like Max Boot can't even define the term. It was created slippery.
|
|
| | | 782 | bibA
ID: 010421015 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:16
|
is a supporter of legalized abortion a supporter of embryonic stem cell research an intelligent design critic is a longtime advocate of radically higher energy taxes to induce conservation
When most of us think of "neocons", we have in mind the likes of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Kagan and Kristol. Come on, you really think these guys subscribe to points like these?
|
|
| | | 783 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:21
|
Listen, I read Commentary for years. You guys lecturing me on neoconservatism is just ridiculous.
|
|
| | | 784 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:22
|
And I mean cover-to-cover thotfully.
|
|
| | | 785 | Perm Dude
ID: 431039178 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:31
|
So you don't believe a Kristol-founded magazine like Commentary is a neocon publication bacause you read it?
|
|
| | | 786 | Perm Dude
ID: 431039178 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:52
|
That was phrased poorly. I meant that Kristol is a "leading light" of the neocons. His magazines (of which he has editorial control, are neocon almost by definition.
|
|
| | | 787 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 10:53
|
Copy/pasting from Krauthammer's Wikipedia page won't win you many arguments.
The context of his "governing ideology whose time has come" quote is not the boastful claim that you insist. Here's the speach where that line line is taken from. Any objective reading of it will find it is nothing more than an assessment of the Bush foreign policy at the particular moment in time of the writing and not an endorsement or criticism of the ideology.
And here's the American Foreign Policy Institute speech. This was delivered the year before the other speech and assesses the Bush policy of that time as Democratic Realism, which he does seem somewhat supportive of and which he explicitly distinguishes from neoconservatism.
But then if you read these speeches you already know these things, right?
Last, he is not a "signatory" to PNAC's "Statement of Principles". To my knowledge, the only PNAC statement that Krauthammer attatched his name to is this letter to President Bush, dated 11 days after 9/11 and there's not a single word in there you would have disagreed with at the time.
Neoconservatism is primarily a foreign policy ideology, Baldwin. And frankly, it's one who's principles that you have leaned heavily on in your arguments in favor of the war in Iraq. The social issues you cite (the 'conservatism' of some of which being dubious enough, for the record) are only relevent to your personal dilutions of the term.
|
|
| | | 788 | bibA
ID: 010421015 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 12:34
|
Baldwin - if just about everyone else has an opinion as to the definition of neoconservatism that is different than yours, won't you admit that this is another case of "they all have it wrong, I am the only one who actually knows"?
When it comes to definitions or semantics, usually the accepted standard is that which is accepted by most. Doesn't make it wrong or right, but it is what is accepted, thus the standard.
|
|
| | | 789 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 13:07
|
I wonder if we will see the re-birth of the paleocons.
|
|
| | | 790 | Boldwin
ID: 2410291417 Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 14:14
|
bibA
The term was deliberately created slippery so that they could slip liberals into the republican party. Those who are neocons do everything that they can to obfuscate exactly what a neocon is. Had I the time and interest I would deconstruct Max Boot doing his level best to confuse the issue.
PD - So you don't believe a Kristol-founded magazine like Commentary is a neocon publication bacause you read it?
That was phrased poorly. I meant that Kristol is a "leading light" of the neocons. His magazines (of which he has editorial control, are neocon almost by definition.
Duh, Commentary is the flagship neocon magazine and I, having read it for many years, know neocons and their arguments inside out, and better than everyone here put together.
|
|
| | |
| | | 792 | Tree
ID: 51011420 Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 20:13
|
Don Feder can go suck some circumsized c*ck, he's such a clueless schmuck.
i would much rather some idiot NOT speak for me. or, for my family for that matter. if i felt that someone was running for president who was a threat to Israel, it's not likely i'd vote for that person.
and my father. oy. he's an orthodox jew, but, like most orthodox jews he leans left. unlike what baldwin would lead you to believe, it is a VERY tiny portion of the jewish population who would vote anything other than democrat.
anyway. if the dems put up a candidate who was everything my father believed in, but he felt was a threat to israel, and the republicans put up a candidate that was the complete opposite of everything my father believed in, save for being pro-israel, he would vote for the repuiblican..no one issue means more to my father than this one, so he simply wouldnt have given Obama a chance if he thought there was any threat.
consider the source from your link.
you're talking about a guy who a dozen years ago mocked sexual harrassment, date rape, and domestic violence as fodder for jokes about liberals.
you're talking about a guy - in the article you linked to, who said "Iranian Television described (Obama) as 'highly educated' and 'eloquent,'" - as if that was a bad thing, or even some fault to attribute to Obama.
there's a lot of silliness in that linked article. and a lot of mistruths and distortions.
come to think of it, it's the perfect post for you Baldwin, because it falls in line with your belief system of dishonesty one hundred percent.
|
|
| | | 793 | Boldwin
ID: 4010491810 Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 21:01
|
unlike what baldwin would lead you to believe, it is a VERY tiny portion of the jewish population who would vote anything other than democrat. - Tree
What a moron. How could you be an english teacher when you can't even read?
|
|
| | | 794 | Tree
ID: 51011420 Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 22:46
|
no, i can read fine. it's your reading comprehension skills that are lacking. your implication was that a small sect of judaism was larger than it really is...
nonetheless, it's no surprise you once again resort to a personal insult that has no basis. it's typical of someone like you, who acts all pious and holy, but in reality is having a tryst in a hotel room with someone who's not their partner.
|
|
| | | 795 | Boldwin
ID: 4010491810 Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 22:57
|
Correction, shameless moron.
|
|
| | | 796 | Tree
ID: 51011420 Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 23:10
|
case rested.
|
|
| | | 797 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 09:54
|
it is a VERY tiny portion of the jewish population who would vote anything other than democrat.
I'd hardly call a quarter of a population VERY tiny.
|
|
| | | 798 | Tree
ID: 351013198 Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 10:49
|
MBJ - fair enough. the phrase "very tiny" was perhaps not accurate.
but the fact remains that Obama - who was toiling in the low 60s for much of the campaign, ended up with a larger percentage of the jewish vote than even Kerry got, which is no small accomplishment.
the finally tally was more around 78 percent for Obama, with about 20 for McCain, and 2 percent for something else.
on a personal level, i hope this represents some sort of renewal in ties between blacks and jews. we marched hand in hand - and died together - during The Civil Rights Movement.
then, some how, you had the jewish hate speech coming from some of the black leadership - and it cultivated a generation. somehow, the anger was focused on us.
here's to hoping that, too, is in the past.
|
|
| | |
| | | 800 | walk
ID: 181472714 Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 11:27
|
Yeah, I think that's right for NYC. I have many Jewish friends from my early and current life. My buds from the old days were more for McCain. My current Manhattan friends were all Obama.
In Florida, I think the Jewish vote moved towards Obama after Biden and Palin were chosen. Elderly Jewish voters (e.g. the one's living in my mom's community) were afraid that Obama was not pro-Israel enough. When Biden was chosen, some concerns were allayed. When Palin was chosen, they thought she was too inept to be so close to be President, especially with a similarly-aged Presidential running mate. Interesting.
|
|
| | | 801 | Slizz
ID: 4710371415 Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 15:36
|
I usually reserve my comments for the football thread, but Boldwin you have to deal with the fact that Obama is gonna be our president and that the Dems are going to have the majority in congress. No good is going to come from debating how Jews voted in the 2008 election. Voting trends or not, I subscribe to the theory that people vote with their wallets, and McCain stood ZERO chance once Wall St. imploded, companies started folding/consolidating, and people’s nest eggs were severely wounded. RE: #762 "The number of Americans who self-identify as liberals continues to fall, to 21% in 2008 from 22% in 2004, according to CNN. (The number of self-identified conservatives held steady at 34%.)" I assume that you were talking about the general population PD...but didn’t read the entire thread, only the last 50 posts. To quote today's Wall Street Journal: "Mr. Obama will get, and deserves, a period of political grace. Let's say a year. After that, it will become increasingly difficult to attribute whatever mistakes he makes to the legacy of his predecessor. American liberalism, such as it is, is finally being put to the test that fate has denied it these last many decades. Succeed or fail, this time there can be no excuses."
|
|
| | | 802 | Perm Dude
ID: 1810491813 Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 16:07
|
Slizz: Actually, my #762 was in response to Baldwin's assertions about moderates, not about liberals. Baldwin indicated these people have no ethical grounding.
|
|
| | | 803 | Perm Dude
ID: 1810491813 Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 16:09
|
Nate Silver interviews Baldwin's favorite pollster...
A bit defensive, he seems to me.
|
|
| | | 804 | Boldwin
ID: 541042014 Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 18:05
|
As far as I am concerned the last word on why republicans had best not throw their base under the bus.
Which segment should they cater to instead and why will a candidate from that segment appeal more to Obama voters than Obama will?
|
|
| | | 805 | Baldwin
ID: 571134912 Wed, Dec 10, 2008, 06:15
|
|
|
| | |
| | | 807 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 10:13
|
On the other side of the coin, Republicans selected Michael Steele as RNC chair last week.
Listen. Adapt. Be positive.
Most Americans today see a Republican Party that defines itself by what it is against rather than what it is for. We can tell you why public schools aren't working, but not articulate a compelling vision for how we'll better educate children. We're well equipped to rail against tax increases; but can't begin to explain how we'll help the poor. We exclude far better than we welcome.
Steele's approach doesn't sit well with the Limbaugh/Coulter hyperbole attack dog method of politics, nor does it sit well with Baldwin's Golden Mean Fallacy philosophy where Sometimes only X or Y is acceptable, with no middle ground possible, because he really means all the time, not sometimes.
|
|
| | |
| | | 809 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 10:58
|
he's trying to make up for lost time
I don't envy him. He has to placate the Coulter/Limbaugh crowd because they are the spokespersons for conservatives while attempting to broaden the base so Republicans can win elections.
It's especially tough when conservatives want to purge RINOs from the party, a term I doubt would have ever been uttered by their hero, Ronald Reagan.
|
|
| | | 810 | weykool
ID: 2842717 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 11:15
|
Steele's approach doesn't sit well with the Limbaugh/Coulter hyperbole attack dog method of politics, nor does it sit well with Baldwin's Golden Mean Fallacy philosophy where Sometimes only X or Y is acceptable, with no middle ground possible, because he really means all the time, not sometimes.
I agree PV....there is only room in this country for one party of vitriol, hatred and negativity.
|
|
| | | 811 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 11:59
|
Actually, there isn't room for any. If the Democrats do what the Republicans did for the last eight years, I think they'll meet with the same fate.
|
|
| | | 812 | weykool
ID: 2842717 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 12:16
|
Actually, there isn't room for any. If the Democrats do what the Republicans did for the last eight years, I think they'll meet with the same fate.
Do you really think the Domocratic party will abandon their strategy of hatred and anme calling when it netted them both house of congress and the White House?
I share your dream of not having any parties employing the hatred strategy but I dont see it ending any time soon.
|
|
| | | 813 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 12:20
|
their strategy of hatred and anme calling when it netted them both house of congress and the White House?
They have hatred and name calling to thank for their elective success? Just how little do you think of the American people?
|
|
| | | 814 | Perm Dude
ID: 13119223 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 12:20
|
Obama exhibited hatred and name calling? Really?
What world are you living on?
|
|
| | | 815 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 12:25
|
Do you really think the Domocratic party will abandon their strategy of hatred and anme calling when it netted them both house of congress and the White House?
no offense WK, but what planet were you on for the last 8 years? i'm actually asking that kind of seriously.
from the political wing of Bush & Cheney to the press wing of Limbaugh and Coulter, the venom spewed came from the Right. sure, you had Franken and most of Air America talking trash, but for the most part no one listened, to the point where i'm not even sure if Air America is on the air anymore.
to say the Obama campaign used a strategy of hatred and name-calling to win the election would be, well, lying. plain and simple. It was Obama who came under constant fire from the right, while McCain's own worst enemies were internal - from the hard core conservatives who really didn't like him, to his own VP Candidate.
Obama didn't win the White House with hatred and name-calling. he won it by doing just the opposite - embracing as many as he could, and making them believe he would truly bring about change.
|
|
| | | 816 | weykool
ID: 2842717 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 12:46
|
Obama didnt have to go negative becasue the MSM had spent the last 8 years laying the goundwork for him. All he had to do was say "Bush policies".
As for the political IQ of this country I do feel this is a problem for the Republican party. Ask the average joe on the street to name the VP, Speaker of the house, or leader of the Senate you you will more than likely get a blank stare. For far too many people in this country the extent of their opinions are shaped by watching the promos for the news while watching Judge Judy or flipping to thier favorite shows after watching the first news story.
|
|
| | | 817 | Perm Dude
ID: 13119223 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 12:54
|
Let me see if I get this right: Obama runs against the Bush policies, and that is a form of hatred and name calling? Seriously--that is your point?
So Obama should not be running against Bush's massively unpopular political policies because that would be hateful?
You're right that the average Joe couldn't name the people who are in those political positions (though only a couple of months out from the election, I think Joe Biden might be named since a majority of people actually voted for him, and the others are not selected by the voters). But this doesn't mean that people have no informed opinions on Bush and whether Obama is a better candidate than McCain.
And I think you have to keep in mind that the Republican Party has been (and continues to) actively court those average Joes as a better representative of America.
|
|
| | | 818 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 12:59
|
I gotta admit weykool, your leap from Obama running against Bush's policies to using hatred and name calling is weyoff.
|
|
| | | 819 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3159311 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 13:10
|
What world are you living on?
Planet Right Wing Radio.
It's going to be a long eight years, Weykooky.
I want him to fail
|
|
| | | 820 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 13:32
|
Obama didnt have to go negative becasue the MSM had spent the last 8 years laying the goundwork for him. All he had to do was say "Bush policies".
the whole MSM argument is bogus, because Fox is the largest watched news organization in the country, and it's been widely established they lean right, not left.
even so, to say the media went negative against Bush for the last 8 years is a pile of rubbish. Bush's policies and attitudes got progressively stupid as time went on, as he alienated friends, allies, and fellow countrymen. his approval rating wasn't crap because of the media, it was crap because of his actions.
you're right. all Obama had to do was say "Bush policies", and he got votes. but that's because the Bush policies sucked, and over time, the american people got sick of them.
McCain said "Bush policies", and he LOST. Had he stuck with "McCain Policies", he might have won.
it's cute to blame the media for Obama winning, but it's also just plain wrong.
|
|
| | | 821 | jedman
ID: 552262217 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 13:34
|
I consider myself a conservative. I listen to both left and right talk shows on XM radio. Even I have a problem sometimes with Rush, Hannity, and Levin and their name calling. I also have a problem with the Young Turks (off the air now I think), Rachel Maddo and Stephanie Miller doing the same thing.
The philosophies of each party should stand for themselves. Direct attacks on individuals accomplishes nothing.
I think the stimulus bill is bad in it's current form. I don't need to throw out derogatory statements about the authors to make my point and ask for change.
|
|
| | | 822 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 13:44
|
I dunno if I'd put Maddow in the same league as Coulter, Malkin and Limbaugh...not even close, but she, and to a much larger degre, Olbermann are quite sarcastic.
The stimulus plan is a good discussion, and I dunno what will make the most impact. I don't think banks ought to get more bailout money (and I work for one, albeit a foreign owned bank but with a large U.S. presence), and I don't think there ought to be spending that is not related to infrastructure, but I also don't that tax cuts alone, which all I am hearing from the other side, are the answer.
|
|
| | | 823 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 13:46
|
As for the political IQ of this country I do feel this is a problem for the Republican party. Ask the average joe on the street to name the VP, Speaker of the house, or leader of the Senate you you will more than likely get a blank stare. For far too many people in this country the extent of their opinions are shaped by watching the promos for the news while watching Judge Judy or flipping to thier favorite shows after watching the first news story.
Is that the tune you were singing after the 2000, 2002 and 2004 elections? Or did the country suddenly get stupid between 2004 and 2006?
|
|
| | | 824 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 13:48
|
LOL
|
|
| | | 825 | weykool
ID: 2842717 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 14:01
|
PD:Let me see if I get this right: Obama runs against the Bush policies, and that is a form of hatred and name calling?
Reading comprehension 101. Please point out where I said Obama ran a campaign of hatred and name calling. He didnt need to run a negative campaign because the attack dogs like Pelosi, Boxer, Schummer, Murtha, Rangle, and a host of others with the help of the MSM had spent the last 8 years poisoning the water. All you have to do is look through the political threads on this forum and see which side is responsible for the majority of name calling.
SZ....thank you for proving my point.
|
|
| | | 826 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 14:16
|
Reading comprehension 101. Please point out where I said Obama ran a campaign of hatred and name calling.
ok
Do you really think the Domocratic party will abandon their strategy of hatred and anme calling when it netted them both house of congress and the White House? from your post above.
THAT's reading comprehension 101, where you explicitly stated: 1. "The Democratic Party" 2. used a "strategy of hatred and name calling" 3. which "netted them both the House, Congress, and the White House."
Obama is a Democrat, and won the White House. One can deduce, from your statements, that he did so with a "strategy of hatred and name calling."
|
|
| | | 827 | Perm Dude
ID: 13119223 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 14:17
|
You said that the Dems used a strategy of hatred and name calling to gain the White House. How, exactly? You don't say. When asked to say when Obama (who actually, you know, won that race) engaged in such behavior, you first half-backpedalled by claiming surrogates in the press engaged in hatred and name calling, then blamed it (without examples) on Democratic elected officials.
Oddly, with so many examples of the White House being won by hatred and name calling, you can't come up with a single one.
Then you use this board as an example of what is going on politically in general, without noting that this would disprove your point of the country having an extremely low political IQ--I venture to say that pretty much anyone who posts here can tell you who has filled various political positions. Pick an argument and stick with it.
jedman's #821 stikes me as being the best on-target post in some time. One of the reasons I can't stand Keith Olberman is his "Republican-lite" series "Worst Person in the World" which is simply a way for him to personally slam someone (usually on the Right) for not agreeing with his progressive views. Democrats haven't won the last two election cycles by recycling Republican hate talking points. They've done so because the voters are tired of the cynicism and hate on the Right which continues to spew out. Lately, in fact, the GOP has taken to blaming voters for being too stupid.
|
|
| | | 828 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 14:31
|
All you have to do is look through the political threads on this forum and see which side is responsible for the majority of name calling.
Horseshit. Absolute, outright rejection of anything called liberalism is a overly simplistic but highly pervasive and even mainstream paradigm on the American political right. You don't even have to look to the Hannitys and Limbaughs for it.
The result is that a politician can't even run for national office in this country as a "liberal".
You won't find anything like explicit wholesale rejection of conservatism on the political left.
But the right has no intention of stopping at the complete demonization of the word 'liberal'. They have taken it upon themselves to utterly misuse words such as socialism and marxism and even terrorism to further dehumanize their political opponents. In the past few months alone we've had Tom Delay, Rep. Paul Broun and Joe Lieberman all call Obama a Marxist. Rep. Michelle Bachman explicitly stated on Hardball that Barack Obama harbors anti-American opinions. Sarah Palin stated that Obama "sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists" and explicitly distinguished between "pro-America" and other parts of the country.
That's just in the last six months or so. Where are the anti-right/anti-republican equivolent expressions from Democrat politicians?
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 832 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 14:49
|
I'm sorry, now what was weykool saying about hatred and name calling?
|
|
| | | 833 | weykool
ID: 2842717 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 15:22
|
You won't find anything like explicit wholesale rejection of conservatism on the political left. Really? Like labeling every conservative as right wing?
I'm sorry, now what was weykool saying about hatred and name calling? I think I was saying that it was pervasive on the left. Can we find examples of both sides being guilty of it? I would think so.
The question is why must every discussion with the left deteriorate into name calling and mocking?
|
|
| | | 834 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 15:45
|
When you believe those people are too stupid to vote, treasonous anti-Americans who sit around on their couch all day and wait for welfare checks, that isn't a great basis for a deep discussion, agreed?
|
|
| | | 835 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 16:07
|
Like labeling every conservative as right wing?
How about conservatives labeling every moderate Republican a RINO?
The question is why must every discussion with the left deteriorate into name calling and mocking?
I don't know if you consider me the left, but in this thread, my contribution to the discussion was the naming of Steele as the new RNC chair. Granted, I did label Limbaugh and Coulter as attack dogs, but, of course, both of them revel in those distinctions.
My larger point was the tenor of Steele's November WSJ piece titled:
Listen. Adapt. Be positive.
I've yet to see any discussion by you that addresses how the GOP can rebound in 2010 and 2012 and if you agree or disagree with Steele's strategy, but continuing to blame the media and offering snide and negative remarks indicates to me you disagree with Steele.
Since I'm not partisan, I prefer to see a balance of power between the executive and congressional branches of government, so I'm a bit invested in seeing Republicans do well in the next election cycle.
Some think that a daily barrage of negativism, hyperbole and outrageous predictions of America's destruction will accomplish the goal.
Others, like Steele, think a positive message of individual achievement instead of government dependence will resonate with voters.
The bottom line is that Steele's main job will be fund raising and organizing. If anyone thinks he can accomplish much by pandering only to the Limbaugh/Coulter contingency of conservatism, it could be a long stay in the wilderness for Republicans.
On a side note,
Coulter's book fell to #62 from #26 in Amazon.com's sales list.
|
|
| | | 836 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 16:39
|
That is disturbing sh!t MITH linked to in #829. You don't see stuff like that from the left, and weykool, since when is "right wing" and derogatory term? Left wing, right wing...it's common terminology for someone's political ideology. "Wingnut" is a different story.
Once again, no way you see Malkin's, Coulter's and Limbaugh's on the left...
I reject the "why must every discussion with the left deteriorate to name calling and mocking." I don't think I do that often, and I am pretty far left. I don't think any threads here for example start off with Jag-like lines saying: "Torture is pandering to wingnut fantasies." We could, but we don't (well, I did!).
;-)
|
|
| | | 837 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 17:13
|
mith: what was weykool saying about hatred and name calling?
weykool: I think I was saying that it was pervasive on the left.
Wrong.
[note to self - general inability to answer even that question correctly is a pretty obvious sign of what you're dealing with]
You called it the "strategy" of the Democratic Party which "netted them both house of congress and the White House".
And when you were called on the absurdity of that claim, you attempted to cover yourself by expanding it to "MSM" but still asserted that it is the political left which is "responsible for the majority of name calling".
mith: You won't find anything like explicit wholesale rejection of conservatism on the political left.
weykool: Really? Like labeling every conservative as right wing?
I'm not even sure that term is taken as an insult when it is casually used. And of course you'll have a terrible time claiming that term is any more misused by the left than "left wing" is misused by the right. As PV points out, the right even has fancy terms like RINO with which to demonize people on THEIR SIDE of the aisle who might stray too close to political moderation. The left has nothing like that.
The question is why must every discussion with the left deteriorate into name calling and mocking?
Probably because it's the only way a$$h0les like you know how to communicate. Tell me, who was it who entered this discussion accusing one side of vitriol, hatred and negativity? In response to PV's defense of the new leader of the RNC, no less.
Walk You don't see stuff like that from the left
I certainly wouldn't say that, walk. I don't doubt that you could have found people at an Obama rally to tell a camera all about what a fascist Bush is and compare him to Hitler or what have you. It exists on both sides, just manifests in somewhat different ways. My point in linking the video was a response to his ridiculous assertion that the political left is less informed than the right in a manner that results in the type of vitriol that weykool is talking about.
Anyone who paid the slightest bit of attention knows that McCain didn't have to deal with anything like the portion of the public that believes Obama is a terrorist. Or a terrorist sympathizer. Or a muslim. Or a Black Liberation Theologist. Or a racist. Or a Marxist. Or a non-citizen. Or the cousin of a despotic Kenyan leader. In fact, the greatest criticism McCain received about his character was probably being called a RINO by his fellow Republicans.
|
|
| | | 838 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 21:09
|
great links MITH. thanks.
even if it's part-time, i for one am glad you've returned here, despite our differences.
|
|
| | | 839 | Building 7
ID: 1043249 Tue, Feb 03, 2009, 22:25
|
The question is why must every discussion with the left deteriorate into name calling and mocking?
Probably because it's the only way a$$h0les like you know how to communicate.
That's helpful.
|
|
| | | 840 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 07:26
|
That's helpful.
I certainly didn't ask for nor do I in any way need your help. As if.
And cherrypicking a single comment from one side for criticism and omitting everything that came before it isn't any more "helpful" than anything I've written.
|
|
| | | 841 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 08:55
|
Perhaps, if you continue with the profanity and insults, people will leave this website and go to some other political website.
|
|
| | | 842 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 09:15
|
Do you really need so badly to inject yourself and demand the last word in a conflict that had nothing to do with you?
Perhaps thanks to your picking a fight with me over behavior which was introduced to the thread by someone else and which, in this particular case, has nothing to do with the topic, you think you're accomplishing something positive.
In actuality you're simply perpetuating and expanding a conflict that most readers probably just prefer comes to an end.
|
|
| | | 843 | walk
ID: 181472714 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 11:55
|
MITH, I think you yourself gave the examples of the sort of more personal hate-speech that was and still is demonstrated on the right, that we do not see on the left. Even if folks say Bush is a fascist, that is not nearly the same as the bigoted attacks against Obama. It's the personal nature of the attacks that I think separates the extreme commentators on either side of the continuum. I'm talking about the bloggers and the pundits and radio jockeys though, not the regular joe's (although, I still think there's less personal bigoted nasty type attacks from the left than from the right).
|
|
| | | 844 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 12:08
|
be afraid, be very afraid...
yep, Cheney didn't go anywhere. he's still around, spewing his policies of fear that America rejected on a grand scale...
|
|
| | | 845 | walk
ID: 181472714 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 12:35
|
Tree, can you please check your link? I click on it, but it links me back to this thread (groundhog day!). thx.
|
|
| | |
| | | 847 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 12:53
|
I'm talking about the bloggers and the pundits and radio jockeys though, not the regular joe's (although, I still think there's less personal bigoted nasty type attacks from the left than from the right).
I was responding to your #836, which was a reaction to things said by regular joes in the video I linked. I don't know, Walk. Like I said, it definitely manifests differently, but regular people on both sides are capable of awful behavior.
As far as frequency of more personal attacks is concerned, I suppose there's really no way to quantify it and while I might agree that it seems to me like it's more pervasive on the right, I'm also aware that 1. I'm probably more sensitive to "vitriol, hatred and negativity" when it comes from the political opposition, and 2. that even with the internet at my disposal, there's no reason to think that what I'm exposed to is a fair representation of the American spectrum of political opinion.
That said, as I've pointed out, at the most basic level you have one side where a mainstream position is the explicit wholesale rejection of philosophical liberalism (although I do wonder to what extent the subscribers to that ideology typically understand what they're saying). And on the other side, well the left at least largeky understands that it simply doesn't make any sense to wholly dismiss political conservatism.
And of course having a black man in the White House invites a whole new level of vitriol to be directed personally at the left.
But I can't go with the statement that you don't see stuff like that from the left.
|
|
| | | 848 | walk
ID: 181472714 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 14:05
|
Fair enough, MITH. Your eloquence and balanced views are very well put! You just don't see those kinds of posts from the [fill in the blank]. (aaaaaaaaaaaar)
|
|
| | | 849 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 14:16
|
lol
|
|
| | | 850 | Baldwin
ID: 3112216 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 22:38
|
Lol! When Walk's side does it, it's a politically correct 'Day of Rage' and Walk agrees with it. Of course he just can't get over the coincidence that his side is always correct and appropriately outraged.
|
|
| | | 851 | Baldwin
ID: 3112216 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 22:39
|
Conversely since the other side makes no sense to him the only explanation that occurs to him is that they must be haters.
|
|
| | | 852 | Perm Dude
ID: 28113410 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 22:54
|
I think hate is pretty clear from either side. It is just that we're more biased to dismissing the hate from our own side, or trying to contextualize it to death.
|
|
| | | 853 | Baldwin
ID: 3112216 Wed, Feb 04, 2009, 23:56
|
What's funny is that conservatives think liberals are faking all that outrage and liberals think that conservative opposition is hatred.
There is a wonderful example of projection right there, not to mention a reminder that the right has a monopoly on being charitable.
|
|
| | | 854 | Perm Dude
ID: 28113410 Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 00:11
|
Ha! The right has a monopoly on charity?
|
|
| | | 855 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 07:18
|
You didn't know, PD? Faith and morality, too.
|
|
| | | 856 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 07:55
|
i'm waiting for the Baldwin post that all charities funded by the left are actually political machines run by Soros and Annenberg.
|
|
| | | 857 | dwetzel on BB
ID: 590182120 Thu, Feb 05, 2009, 09:44
|
Guys, don't bother taking the bait. We already know he is insane.
|
|
| | | 858 | Perm Dude
ID: 1101610 Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 13:17
|
Do they even know what they are for?
We know that they are against, of course. The Democratic talking points of the day. But what are conservatives for? And can they articulate that in a way which distances them from Obama without the lurching around that is going on now in the GOP?
|
|
| | | 859 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 11:44
|
The direction of the Republican Party:
Treason?
No, I wouldn't go there but there are some rather ugly trends developing.
Keyes' explicit opinion is that President Obama is "an abomination". He says that he refuses to call him "president Obama", that he must be stopped before he "destroys the country", and questions whether the United States military should answer to the man who was elected to be their Commander in Chief.
Sullivan:It seems important to me that responsible, leading members of the Republican party, if there are any left, need to disown these remarks. The consequences of letting them stand are quite disturbing.
On their own, the lunatic rantings of Alan Keyes are not usually worth more attention than for an occasional laugh, but in this case, even Mr Keyes has outdone himself.
Last month we had Rush Limbaugh openly wishing - in the name of conservatism, no less - for President Obama's attempts to revive the economy to fail.
Scott Martin, who posts here as AZDBacker (and has been called a "superhero" by Boxman) and runs Conservatism Today a politics blog which was claiming something like 2,000 individual hits per day during the election season (and which Baldwin has said is "so professionally done I believe it will be in the top fifty nationally significant political blogs within a couple years") wrote in response to Limbaugh:I do want his failure to be as epic as Jimmy Carter's was. I want gas lines. I want unemployment. I want New York City, Los Angeles and Detroit to go bankrupt. When I previously posted that to this forum, Baldwin's reaction was not to denounce what AZD had written but to declare that I had no right to raise the issue, demanding that Liberals are in no position to "cast stones". Funny, I don't recall anyone I have so emphatically endorsed as B has endorsed AZD so explicitly rooting for America to fail.
Perhaps it's just me, but such extremist positions seem to be making their way inward from the fringe to the more mainstream political right.
|
|
| | | 860 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 11:59
|
Scott Martin, also writes here, as the Phoenix Conservative Examiner...
it's also a paying (albeit not much) gig.
it can be a fun read, since it's mostly quotations and comments on them, including opening mocking children who want to see Obama make this country a better place.
Scott is cute that way.
|
|
| | | 861 | Perm Dude
ID: 19150238 Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 12:04
|
I posted on Scott's site and hadn't been back since I did, having expected no response (or a flame); I am pleased to see a little pushback in the last three comments there.
The hardcore right-wing section of the GOP has decided on a strategy of Chicken Little fearmongering. Keyes, of course, is an idiot and always has been.
|
|
| | | 862 | Razor
ID: 32138722 Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 12:28
|
When I previously posted that to this forum, Baldwin's reaction was not to denounce what AZD had written but to declare that I had no right to raise the issue, demanding that Liberals are in no position to "cast stones". Funny, I don't recall anyone I have so emphatically endorsed as B has endorsed AZD so explicitly rooting for America to fail.
Perhaps it's just me, but such extremist positions seem to be making their way inward from the fringe to the more mainstream political right.
Agreed. The far left-wingers that actually want to see the country collapse have virtually no voice because they are so small in number. And on the Right? Well, talk of the country failing has become commonplace and acceptable in mainstream Right wing media. It's kind of funny that they are always the one calling others unpatriotic.
|
|
| | | 863 | jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Tue, Feb 24, 2009, 00:05
|
As one who leans right, I will admit that there is much talk that is too much for me, I can hardly listen to Sean Hannity anymore. I don't believe the stimulus plan as packaged is going to work the way Pres. Obama and the Dems think it will, but I am not so confident in my belief that I hope it doesn't. I can't find anything in history that says it will, and no, I don't believe FDR's spending was as successful as some do.
On the other hand, as I listen to the likes of Mike Malloy, Nancy Skinner, Rachel Maddo, et al, I hear a lot of totally negative talk about all Republicans, as if they can all be lumped into one basket.
Even Bill Clinton says the President needs to talk less negatively and I agree. Everything is crisis this, and catastrophe that. He needs to be building hope and telling us why this plan is going to work.
I'm about ready to just quit talk radio and stick to ESPN Radio.
|
|
| | | 864 | Perm Dude
ID: 19150238 Tue, Feb 24, 2009, 00:23
|
Probably better, jedman.
I've got a friend of mind who also leans conservative. Whenever the subject of politics comes up, however, my friend always points out how he listens to both far left and far right commentators, as if he's perfectly balanced in doing so.
He doesn't seem to believe me that:
-there's no real difference between the far left and far right. Both sides are self-righteous bastards who demonize people they think won't drink their kool-aid.
-the vast, vast majority of Americans are in the middle.
The best sign of an intelligent person is not so much how persuasively and strongly they will argue their positions, but how willing they are to honestly listen to others'.
That all said, right now I have the sense that the far Right is still very, very angry and seems a bit over-the-top. The Left seem content in pointing out how over-the-top the far Right has become. I don't think they are qualitatively the same.
I sure hope the Right regains its equalibrium.
|
|
| | | 865 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Tue, Feb 24, 2009, 08:51
|
i've got a friend who works for the office of the POTUS. he loved his last boss. his new one, not so much.
he's an avowed conservative. over email, we bicker back and forth on politics constantly.
but in person, the political conversation is more metered, more intelligent, and less...well..stupid.
over email - and i do believe this translates to message boards, blogs, and broadcast media - it's who shouts the loudest.
he's quick to send me emails from some far right board, as if it's the gospel truth. when i tell him to slow down, and show him counter evidence, the rational human he is kicks in, and instead of blaming the main stream media or liberals, he actually thinks about it, and often draws new conclusions.
and in person, it is intelligent, honest, open debate and discussion.
also, in person, my friend is considerably less radical sounding, and more rational, than he appears to be over email, to the point that when he actually stops to listen, there are often responses from him of "well, not that you've actually explained it, it really doesn't sound so bad...if it actally works!"
always with "if it actually works," but, the point is, he actually listens, and is certainly "less angry" than when he's emailing, posting, etc.
it's easy to be angry online and on the airwaves. you have sheep willing to follow you anywhere, if you scream loud enough.
so sayeth the shepherd, so sayeth the flock...all of that...
|
|
| | | 866 | jedman Dude
ID: 315192219 Tue, Feb 24, 2009, 09:11
|
Well said Tree, I couldn't agree more.
|
|
| | | 867 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Tue, Feb 24, 2009, 09:41
|
The inherit problem with message boards is that you can't tell verbal tone and nonverbal communication. At work, we have a departmental sharepoint portal site where we blog or do 100 different things. Or the infamous emails at work with the CCing the boss. It's simple and understandable to misread the typed word.
Even the people who are in my "inner circle" at work. Sometimes I read an email and I go "WTF is your problem John Doe?" But then if I had that exact same conversation I'm sure it would be different.
|
|
| | | 868 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Tue, Feb 24, 2009, 09:41
|
There's a lot of truth in 863 Jedman...
|
|
| | | 869 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Tue, Feb 24, 2009, 11:01
|
The inherit problem with message boards is that you can't tell verbal tone and nonverbal communication.
perhaps so. but tone is not relevant when the same people keep shouting the same things in the "if you repeat it often enough, people will start to believe it" vein.
be it the Clintons, the "Mainstream Media", ACORN, Pelosi, or any number of things repeated often enough that their practically mantras of the weak, tone is not relevant, because it's clear that person is opening their mouth and closing their ears, mostly because online, it is easy to do so.
|
|
| | | 870 | Perm Dude
ID: 131252611 Thu, Feb 26, 2009, 16:45
|
How to Marginalize a National Party, Part I: Keep insisting Obama is not a citizen, to loud applause.
Republicans have enjoyed very strong party cohension for many years--it is a hallmark of the GOP. But right now it is binding up a zombie, with yahoos as the mouthpieces for a once-great national party. Until the GOP can get back on its feet (with something more than being against everything Obama proposes), we're stuck with this sideshow from the Right.
|
|
| | | 871 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 11:00
|
The direction of the Republican Party:
Blind Obstructionism.
While it's certainly not at the top of the any list of serious challenges currently facing Congress, can anyone think of any other reason to oppose H.R.80 - The Captive Primate Safety Act?
Summary at gop.gov:H.R. 80 amends the Lacey Act Amendments of 1981, by prohibiting the import, export, transport, sale, receipt, acquisition, or purchase of any live non-human primate (such as monkeys, chimpanzees, great apes, lemurs, etc.) through interstate or foreign commerce.
The legislation allows the transport of these non-human primates for veterinary purposes as long as the person transporting the animal carries proof of the appointment issued by the veterinarian and the animal is transported and treated within all applicable State and local laws. H.R. 80 also allows individuals who own such primates to give them to an out-of-state caregiver upon the death of the owner. The legislation sets civil and criminal penalties for violations of the provisions of the Act.
The bill authorizes $5 million annually for the Secretary of the Interior to hire additional U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Officers to enforce this Act. Here's a very persuasive Hilzoy post covering a myriad of reasons for why nonhuman prmates should not be kept as pets. But I don't think anyone needs such a detailed explanation for why the results from introducing primates into human society can range from destructive to tragic, particularly in the wake of the incident in CT two weeks ago in which a woman was nearly killed and permanantly disfigured by her friend's pet chimp.
The measure is supported by The Humane Society, along with: The Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) The Jane Goodall Institute Friends of the Earth Born Free USA The Wildlife Conservation Society
So, as Hilzoy asked in the postscript of the linked blog post, "Does anyone have any idea why Democrats voted for this bill 247-2, while Republicans voted against it 76-93? I didn't realize that this was a partisan issue."
|
|
| | | 872 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 12:11
|
So this would be an outright ban as opposed to the citizen meeting some kind of standard to own a monkey?
I'm against the ban too. The movie Every Which Way But Loose would never be possible then.
|
|
| | | 874 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 12:22
|
an outright ban as opposed to the citizen meeting some kind of standard to own a monkey?
No.
|
|
| | | 875 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 12:26
|
That's not what you quoted.
H.R. 80 amends the Lacey Act Amendments of 1981, by prohibiting the import, export, transport, sale, receipt, acquisition, or purchase of any live non-human primate (such as monkeys, chimpanzees, great apes, lemurs, etc.) through interstate or foreign commerce.
I live in Illinois and I want a pet monkey. How in the heck am I going to find one locally since I can't import or purchase it?
|
|
| | | 876 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 12:34
|
I guess we are at an impasse. I don't know of a way to dumb down the phrase, "through interstate or foreign commerce" for you.
|
|
| | | 877 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 14:22
|
You can't buy a monkey, but you can still go and, uh, "adopt" one from the jungles of Borneo? Is that the distinction you are trying to make, mith?
|
|
| | | 878 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 14:23
|
MITH - I'm pretty sure that the bill equates to an outright ban on the sale of primates-are you saying it doesn't?
That dumbed down language you quoted is simply Congress' nod to the vestigial Commerce Clause of the Constitution.
We know from recent SCOTUS decisions that a person growing his own MJ for personal use is engaged in interstate commerce. How would this be differently decided? Can you dumb that down for me?
|
|
| | | 879 | Perm Dude
ID: 131252611 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 14:24
|
Typically, one doesn't grow primates on your own land. Congress has overreached on the Commerce Clause in the past, but this doesn't appear to be one of those times.
|
|
| | | 880 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 14:44
|
Why can't Boxman buy the monkey already sitting in the window at the exotic pet store down the street from his home in IL? If his state already has laws on the books preventing the breeding and sale of monkeys and monkey love is that important to him than he can move to a more pet-monkey-friendly state, no?
|
|
| | | 881 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 14:59
|
I posted before reading 878. I don't know about the SCOTUS decision MBJ refers to.
Interestingly, Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah, one of the dissenting votes, disagrees:The bill, said Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah, does nothing to prohibit a monkey from biting, such as in the Connecticut incident, "unless the monkey was willing to chase the woman from Connecticut over to New York State." He compared the 100 attacks over 10 years to the 100,000 people who go to the hospital every year with dog bites. More to the point than trading snarky posts with Boxman, if this isn't a case of blind obstructionism and there are legitimate conservative reasons to oppose this bill, then why did the GOP controlled House unanimously pass the Captive Wildlife Safety Act in 2003? That bill banned interstate and foreign commerce of dangerous exotic animals, including lions, tigers, leopards, cheetahs, jaguars and cougars.
|
|
| | | 882 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 15:17
|
Why can't Boxman buy the monkey already sitting in the window at the exotic pet store down the street from his home in IL?
And how does the exotic pet store across the street get one if acquisition is banned?
|
|
| | |
| | | 884 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 16:03
|
Held: Congress’ Commerce Clause authority includes the power to prohibit the local cultivation and use of marijuana in compliance with California law.
I'm not opposed to this particular law, but I'm surprised it's so unclear to Mith that a party that is supposed to be conservative and favor limited Federal government (if only in rhetoric) would show some oppostion to a law like this.
|
|
| | | 885 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 16:03
|
Congressional Research Service Summary of the Captive Primate Safety Act H.R. 80 (111th) Captive Primate Safety Act - Amends the Lacey Act Amendments of 1981 to add nonhuman primates (i.e., monkeys, great apes, lemurs, etc.) to the definition of "prohibited wildlife species" for purposes of the prohibition against the sale or purchase of such species in interstate or foreign commerce. Makes it unlawful for a person to sell or purchase a live animal of any prohibited wildlife species in interstate or foreign commerce (i.e., for pet trade purposes). Sets forth: (1) exceptions to such prohibition (including for a person transporting a single primate of the genus Cebus that was obtained from and trained by a charitable organization to assist a permanently disabled individual with a severe mobility impairment); and (2) civil and criminal penalties for violations of the requirements of this Act. Extends the authorization of appropriations to carry out such prohibition for FY2010-FY2014. Requires the Secretary of the Interior, in consultation with other relevant federal and state agencies, to issue regulations to implement the Captive Wildlife Safety Act within 180 days. Authorizes additional appropriations to the Secretary for FY2010 to hire additional law enforcement personnel of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service to enforce the Lacey Act Amendments of 1981. Congressional Research Service Summary of the Captive Wildlife Safety Act H.R. 1006 (108th)Captive Wildlife Safety Act - Amends the Lacey Act Amendments of 1981 to define "prohibited wildlife species" as any live species of lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, jaguar, or cougar or any hybrid of such species. Declares it a prohibited act for any person to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce any prohibited wildlife species. Exempts from this prohibition: (1) persons licensed or registered, and inspected, by the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service or any other Federal agency with respect to that species; (2) a State college, university, or agency, a State-licensed wildlife rehabilitator, or State-licensed veterinarian; (3) an accredited wildlife sanctuary that cares for prohibited wildlife species and is a tax-exempt nonprofit corporation that does not commercially trade in the species, including offsprings, parts, and byproducts of such animals or propagates them, nor allows direct contact between the public and the animals; or (4) persons that have custody of the animal solely for the purpose of expeditiously transporting it to a person described in this Act with respect to the species. Authorizes appropriations for FY 2004 through 2008. Reps who voted for the 2003 bill but not the 2009 bill:
AL: Jo Bonner, Robert Aderholt AK: Donald Young AZ: Trent Franks, John Shadegg, Jeff Flake CA: Walter Herger, George Radanovich, David Dreier, Dana Rohrabacher, Darrell Issa, Duncan Hunter FL: jeff Miller, Ander Crenshaw, Virginia Brown-Waite, Adam Putnam GA: Jack Kingston IL: Donald Manzullo IN: Dan Burton, Mike Pence IA: Steve King KS: Jerry Moran MI: Peter Hoekstra MN: John Kline, Collin Peterson [D] MO: W. Arkin, Samuel Graves, Roy Blunt NE: Lee Terry NJ: Scott Garrett NC: Howard Coble, Sue Myrick OH: John Boehner OK: John Sullivan, Frank Lucas, Tom Cole OR: Greg Walden PA: Joseph Pitts SC: Addison Wilson, James Barrett TN: John Duncan, Zach Wamp, Marsha Blackburn TX: Samuel Johnson, Ralph Hall, Jeb Hensarling, Joe Barton, John Culberson, Kevin Brady, William Thornberry, Ron Paul, Randy Neugebauer, Michael Burgess, John Carter, Peter Sessions UT: Rob Bishop VA: James Forbes, Robert Goodlatte, Eric Cantor WA: Doc Hastings WI: Paul Ryan
|
|
| | | 886 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 16:07
|
Boxman 882 And how does the exotic pet store across the street get one if acquisition is banned?
Is breeding federally banned? I don't know.
But much more to the point I'm raising (obstructionism) if you think the GOP was wrong to sponsor and unamimously support the Captive Wildlife Safety Act of 2003, then I have no quarrel with you.
|
|
| | | 887 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 16:07
|
Another reason for opposition might be: The bill authorizes $5 million annually for the Secretary of the Interior to hire additional U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Officers to enforce this Act.
Seriously this means spending $50,000,000.00 to stop an epidemic of 10 ape bites a year over 10 years.
|
|
| | | 888 | Seattle Zen
ID: 501202711 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 16:10
|
In my experience, US Fish and Wildlife officers are the most inept, pathetically uninformed and trained police force ever put together. I wouldn't want anymore of them, either.
|
|
| | | 889 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 16:11
|
But much more to the point I'm raising (obstructionism) if you think the GOP was wrong to sponsor and unamimously support the Captive Wildlife Safety Act of 2003, then I have no quarrel with you.
Then no quarrel.
If someone wants to own an exotic pet. Let them. Of course reasonable measures for the public safety should be in place ideally at the expense of the pet owner, but an outright ban is ridiculuous.
|
|
| | | 890 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 17:02
|
Seriously this means spending $50,000,000.00 to stop an epidemic of 10 ape bites a year over 10 years.
According to a talking points memo issued by Born Free USA for a similar bill, There have been a minimum of 126 incidents involving primates in the U.S. within the past ten years. Since 1995, 68 adults and 29 children have been injured, 99 primates have escaped in 60 separate incidents, and 37 animals have had to be killed as a result. This Stamford Times article says the Humane Society has documented 46 incidents in the past 4 years. Considering the damage these animals are capable of I don't think $5m per year is an excessive annual federal expenditure. That's just my opinion of course but adding $5m to the federal budget is like adding less than half a penny to my annual household budget. And isn't fixing a hard dollar figure preferable to leaving it to apropriations?
In any case, the two bills are almost identical and deals with animals that are just as dangerous and likely more of an issue. Sorry, but you'll have an awfull hard time convincing me that seeing one bill (sponsored by a Republican in a GOP controlled House) pass unanimously and the other (sponsored by a Dem in a Dem controlled House) opposed by over half of the Republicans in the chamber including 60 who voted for the first bill is anything but obstructionism.
|
|
| | | 891 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Feb 27, 2009, 17:12
|
Err...
In any case, the two bills are almost identical and [the current one] deals with animals that are just as dangerous and likely more of an issue.
|
|
| | | 892 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 10:21
|
Rush's brother, David Limbaugh, succumbs to emotional propoganda tactics in an embarrassing opinion piece.
The Democrats, along with those on the right who seem more worried about incurring the disdain of the wrongheaded left than of their fellow patriots, are feverishly promoting their Saul Alinsky-inspired scheme to demonize and divide their most effective political opponents.
What would be amusing, were matters not so gravely serious today, is the utter juvenile transparency in the liberals' efforts to vilify Rush Limbaugh.
They've been doing it for 20 years, but this time, they're better-organized and have a broader purpose. So those who haven't had the courage to stand by him should understand that Rush is not the ultimate target here. We all are -- those, that is, who oppose their Marxist agenda and Stalinist tactics.
Saul Alinsky-inspired scheme
Marxist agenda
Stalinist tactics
What example does he use as Stalinist tactics?
Have you noticed their coordinated effort to label Rush the leader of the Republican Party? Do you think it's accidental that James Carville so describes him? Do you think it's just coincidental that Obama called Rush out personally and that the entire flock of mainstream media sheep followed suit? Is it just serendipitous that liberal Chris Matthews baits his guests nightly to castigate Rush? Is it fortuitous that Obama’s, er, ABC's George Stephanopoulos demands his guests, such as Republican Rep. Eric Cantor, to either defend or denounce Rush?
I did notice all those things. What I have failed to see is how any of this relates to Josef Stalin, Karl Marx or Saul Alinsky. Then to further insult the intelligence of anyone who has even a yeoman's knowledge of history, he proclaims:
Rush is unabashedly rooting for America. And anyone with the slightest ability or moral clarity to make mental distinctions understands this.
Unfortunately for David Limbaugh, his ability or moral clarity to make mental distinctions has been thoroughly destroyed by the time he makes that statement.
|
|
| | | 893 | Perm Dude
ID: 19246310 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 11:53
|
"Hang time" is the new phrase out there, indicating the amount of time between a criticism of Rush Limbaugh and an apology for the same.
Michael Steele lasted nearly 2 full days, though, as this commenter notes some of that "hang time" might have lengthened for effect by Rush.
|
|
| | | 894 | Boldwin
ID: 581202816 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 18:00
|
PV
He is noting what I have been pointing out for four months.
Obama [and his minions] is going to be working off Saul Alinski's 'Rules For Radicals', one of which, the rule “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it” is being used against Rush in an attempt to 'wedge' conservatives out of control in the Republican party, thus neutering it.
How is it possible that you do not know this, PV?
|
|
| | | 895 | Perm Dude
ID: 19246310 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 18:04
|
Obama [and his minions] is going to be working off...
Yes, you have been futurecasting for some time. The problem is, you've been wrong about Obama at pretty much every step.
And the steps you point out? This is pulled from the Rove/Limbaugh playbook.
|
|
| | | 896 | Boldwin
ID: 581202816 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 18:05
|
Are you really suggesting Alinsky wasn't a marxist?"Obama learned his lesson well. I am proud to see that my father's model for organizing is being applied successfully beyond local community organizing to affect the Democratic campaign in 2008. It is a fine tribute to Saul Alinsky as we approach his 100th birthday." --Letter from L. DAVID ALINSKY, son of Neo-Marxist Saul Alinsky
"True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism, Alinsky taught. They cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within. Alinsky viewed revolution as a slow, patient process. The trick was to penetrate existing institutions such as churches, unions and political parties....
"One Alinsky benefactor was Wall Street investment banker Eugene Meyer, who served as Chairman of the Federal Reserve from 1930 to 1933. Meyer and his wife Agnes co-owned The Washington Post. They used their newspaper to promote Alinsky....Her series, called 'The Orderly Revolution', made Alinsky famous....
"Alinsky’s crowning achievement was his recruitment of a young high school student named Hillary Rodham. She met Alinsky through a radical church group. Hillary wrote an analysis of Alinsky’s methods for her senior thesis at Wellesley College. ...
"Many leftists view Hillary as a sell-out because she claims to hold moderate views on some issues. However, Hillary is simply following Alinsky’s counsel to do and say whatever it takes to gain power.
"Barack Obama is also an Alinskyite.... Obama spent years teaching workshops on the Alinsky method. In 1985 he began a four-year stint as a community organizer in Chicago, working for an Alinskyite group called the Developing Communities Project.... Camouflage is key to Alinsky-style organizing. While trying to build coalitions of black churches in Chicago, Obama caught flak for not attending church himself. He became an instant churchgoer." "Hillary, Obama and the Cult of Alinsky" by Richard Poe, 11-27-07. See also Community Oriented Policing
"His name was Saul Alinsky, the mentor of Hillary Rodham Clinton, and the concierge emeritus of modern liberalism.... Alinsky was also the subject of the previously suppressed 1969 Wellesley Thesis by one Hillary Rodham.... [In it, she wrote that Alinsky's 1971 book] Rules for Radicals provides the organizer with a tactical style for community organization that assumes an adversarial relationship between groups of people in which one either dominates or is dominated. ... Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also, it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage.” “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” "Rules for radicals"
|
|
| | | 897 | Perm Dude
ID: 19246310 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 18:13
|
Ugh, no. We'll leave that strawman twisting in the breeze.
|
|
| | | 898 | Boldwin
ID: 581202816 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 18:14
|
So Saul Alinsky's son and I can see plain as day that Obama is following Saul Alinsky's 'Rules For Radical's' right down to the letter...
But PD would tell us the moon was made of green cheese if it advanced Obama one inch. 'Oh no, David Limbaugh can't be right about this.' Of course he is.
|
|
| | | 899 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 19:23
|
'Oh no, David Limbaugh can't be right about this.' Of course he is.
When you can provide evidence of Obama using Stalinist tactics, like say mass murdering millions of American citizens or exiling them to the Arctic, then I'll agree with you and Limbaugh.
Conjuring Alinsky, Marx and Stalin is used for emotional effect so the Baldwins of the world will up the profits of the pharmaceutical companies with sales of high blood pressure medicine.
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
Sounds more like Tom Delay than Obama.
|
|
| | | 900 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 19:35
|
He is noting what I have been pointing out for four months.
Obama [and his minions] is going to be working off Saul Alinski's 'Rules For Radicals', one of which, the rule “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it”
which describes EXACTLY how *YOU* have attacked first the Clintons, and now Obama.
regardless of truth, Obama has been your target in many a lie, following the exact same steps as above.
the only problem is that the american public had educated itself since he last time these tactics (aka Rovian) were used, and weren't gonna fall for it.
nice try though.
|
|
| | | 901 | Boldwin
ID: 581202816 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 20:24
|
PV
While he and democrats today generally are pathetic memebots running the propaganda program of a long dead dictator, namely Stalin...Obama belongs much more to the Alinsky/Gramsci school of marxist tactics.
|
|
| | | 902 | Perm Dude
ID: 19246310 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 20:34
|
So David Limbaugh is wrong then. I know you won't make that leap yourself (the Maoist self-criticism wing of the GOP won't allow you to actually criticize a member of the party in public) but this is as close as we'll get so we'll call it a gimme.
|
|
| | | 903 | Boldwin
ID: 581202816 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 21:17
|
Marxist, Alinsky inspired schemes, Stalinist propaganda...which part is he wrong on?
Black knight much?
|
|
| | | 904 | Seattle Zen
ID: 2025310 Tue, Mar 03, 2009, 21:42
|
Badlwin: Obama [and his minions] is going to be working off Saul Alinski's 'Rules For Radicals', one of which, the rule “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it” is being used against Rush in an attempt to 'wedge' conservatives out of control in the Republican party, thus neutering it.
Do you even read what you type, Baldy? Obama and his "minions" have been saying that Rush IS the Republican Party, they certainly are not trying to "wedge" him and conservatives out. It may come as news to you, but Goldwater lost and Goldwater conservatives continue to lose and lose BAD. I know it is your dream and the dream of many in the blogosphere to have a "pure" conservative party, and I hope you get your wish. You see, 30% will never win an election. You think that "liberal" is a bad word, but ha, we've got one in the White House who has overwhelming popularity and support. You see that blue type right there, it's a link to a poll where FACTS are found. You might want to try it sometime. By the way, it states that Obama has a 60% approval rating, pretty damn amazing for a president during such a horrible economic recession.
|
|
| | | 905 | Boldwin
ID: 581202816 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 09:03
|
What would you call what Chris Matthews is doing then?
Of course there is an obvious attempt to seperate Rush from the Republican party.
Not a stupid tactic at all. Especially considering that the Republican party organization at the top left him way back when they started nominating globalists and neocons. There is an obvious fault line and Dems are sledge-hammering away at it night and day, all shoulders to the task, on message.
Why bother denying something so obvious?
|
|
| | | 906 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 09:44
|
You see, 30% will never win an election.
I wasn't aware that Reagan won in 80 and 84 with only 30% of the electorate. Carter and Mondale must've really sucked.
The best thing to happen to liberals in a generation was for conservatives in the post-Reagan America to be marginalized and left supporting the only candidates we could; neo-conservatives.
Why vote for liberal-lite when you can have the full fledged thing? Liberal-lite basically gave the power to the Democrats.
|
|
| | | 907 | Perm Dude
ID: 5222248 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 10:20
|
That's exactly what Rush believed.
Despite the GOP's disdain for revisionist history, that's all we seem to be hearing from them these days. The electorate didn't turn away from the GOP because of politicians like Spector or Snowe, however.
|
|
| | | 908 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 11:04
|
>Marxist, Alinsky inspired schemes, Stalinist propaganda...which part is he wrong on?<
All of it.
Let's break it down in real terms.
Marxist inspired schemes. Where's your evidence? Obama has proposed, as he did in the campaign, to raise taxes on those making $250,000 a year. He has allotted money in the spending/stimulus bill for an increase in social spending(which I oppose), a bedrock of the Democratic Party for decades. Specifically point out to me a Marxist-inspired scheme. Not what he's going to do or what he's planning based on your own bias, lay out the scheme and explain how it's Marxist.
Alinsky inspired schemes.
Obama [and his minions] is going to be working off Saul Alinski's 'Rules For Radicals', one of which, the rule “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it” is being used against Rush in an attempt to 'wedge' conservatives out of control in the Republican party, thus neutering it.
Is going to be is a projection. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it can be applied just as easily, even more so in ways, to the conservative commentary about Obama. You don't think it's radical to personalize Obama with references to Marx, Alinsky and Stalin in an attempt to polarize him in the eyes of the American public?
Which brings us to the final and most absurd claim. Stalinist propoganda. That accusation, in itself, is propaganda which far surpasses anything Obama, Rahm Emmanuel or any other Democratic leader has said about Rush Limbaugh. That you casually accept such a characterization shows just how radical and increasingly desperate the right wing has become.
You'd think conservatives would be conscious enough to realize that lowering the political dialogue in this country to such embarrassing levels is counter-productive, since there's plenty of ammunition in the real world to voice opposition to the direction Obama is leading the country, and even more so with Congress, led by two of the poorest national representatives this country has ever experienced - Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.
It should be clear that the Alinsky, Marxist, Stalinist, Ayers, Rev. Wright, Kenyan-born Muslim terrorist approach hasn't worked and won't work. The vast majority of Americans have and will continue to tune that out. The vast majority of Americans are concerned about jobs, housing, education, health care, retirement, crime, banks, the stock market, national security, the environment and the cost of goods and services.
If the conservative movement wants to focus on sarcasm, satire and radical characterizations of the Obama administration, it should prepare for further marginalization. If they promote their politicians who oppose the Democrats in measured, mature and forward moving rhetoric, there's a good chance, as in 1994, that 2010 will see a swing back in their favor.
That likely won't happen when you have the Michael Steele publicly apologizing to Rush Limbaugh for being truthful.
|
|
| | | 909 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 11:15
|
Baldwin - here's another kernel of truth for you to ignore, like you did post 900.
personally, i'm thinking what's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
after all, Republicans tried - oh, and failed miserably - in trying to tie Obama to the "terrorist" Ayers, and the "racist" Wright.
so, it doesn't seem to be out of bounds to tie the Republicans to Limbaugh, who, by the way, is much more disliked by Americans than both Ayers and Wright.
probably has something to do with Limbaugh being a radical hater of America, wanting it to fail.
|
|
| | | 910 | Perm Dude
ID: 5222248 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 11:32
|
We also need to be clear: It is Limbaugh who sets himself up as the leader of true Republicans. Democrats are merely encouraging his takeover.
|
|
| | | 911 | jedman
ID: 552262217 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 11:42
|
Tree - You are taking the Democrat talking point on Limbaugh's "wants America to fail". He believes Pres. Obama's policies are socialistic and bad for America. He wants him to fail to have those policies implemented because he believes they are bad for America. He has repeatedly stated that he wants America to succeed and doesn't believe that Pres. Obama's policies will let that happen. There is a huge difference IMHO in those two statements. You can agree with him or not, I am not sure I am that far in my beliefs, despite my concerns with what is going on. I listen to him a lot and he has not said he wants America to fail.
Let me see if I can post a link that explains it better than me, coming from a person on the left no less.
link
|
|
| | | 912 | Perm Dude
ID: 5222248 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 11:51
|
The letter you link two is about two separate things: Someone on the left hoping that we lose in Iraq, versus Limbaugh hoping for widespread economic failure as a result of Obama's policies.
This is apples to oranges comparisons. And yet, there is an echo of Republican political campaigns of the recent past, in which it was said that being against the President's policies was un-American. Ironic that you'd be using an example of what the GOP would call "un-American" for the last few elections as an example of Limbaugh not being un-American.
And regardless of whether Limbaugh is couching this in terms of "Obama's policies" failing or "American failing," there is absolutely no practical difference. Limbaugh hopes that Obama's policies are implemented and massively fail in order to demonstrate that Obama is wrong on the economy. He hopes America tanks to prove himself correct politically. He could not be more clear on the point.
|
|
| | | 913 | jedman
ID: 552262217 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:03
|
Can you link to me where he has said he wants America to tank? I just disagree that what he is saying is the same thing as wanting the American economy to fail. You can say that if his policies are totally implemented, the economy will fail,therefore you don't want him to succeed in getting them implemented but that is way different than saying you want America to fail. I know there is no love lost here for Rush Limbaugh, but I think what he has said on this has been taken way out of context if you listen to more than just a few sound bites.
|
|
| | | 914 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:05
|
Kinda like being against the war but for the troops eh?
|
|
| | | 915 | Perm Dude
ID: 5222248 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:06
|
Not at all--in fact, it is the opposite. Rush is against the economic troops--that's why he's against the plan.
|
|
| | | 916 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:09
|
Tree - You are taking the Democrat talking point on Limbaugh's "wants America to fail".
no, i'm not.
i'm taking the talking point from Rush's own mouth, as the transcript from his own site provides...
never mind the title of the transcript, again, per his own web site, is "I Hope Obama Fails..."
I know what (Obama's) politics are. I know what his plans are, as he has stated them. I don't want them to succeed.
If I wanted Obama to succeed, I'd be happy the Republicans have laid down. And I would be encouraging Republicans to lay down and support him. Look, what he's talking about is the absorption of as much of the private sector by the US government as possible, from the banking business, to the mortgage industry, the automobile business, to health care. I do not want the government in charge of all of these things. I don't want this to work. So I'm thinking of replying to the guy, "Okay, I'll send you a response, but I don't need 400 words, I need four: I hope he fails."
you can parse it how you want, but if Obama's plans fail, America fails. our economy is in the $hitter, our job market is in the $hitter, our stock market is quickly going down the $hitter.
Limbaugh was very clear in his words. in no uncertain terms, he said he doesn't want Obama's plans to succeed, and he hopes he fails. period.
i won't go as far as saying that Limbaugh oughta go join Osama Bin Laden, but their hopes are one and the same. they both hope for the failure of the American President.
|
|
| | | 917 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:11
|
Not at all--in fact, it is the opposite. Rush is against the economic troops--that's why he's against the plan.
Do you listen to Rush Limbaugh's show?
He's been going out of his way this week to explain himself on those remarks. He's very clear that he doesn't want Obama's socialistic policies to succeed.
Isn't it possible for the country to move forward in spite of Obama?
|
|
| | | 918 | Seattle Zen
ID: 829410 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:16
|
Kinda like being against the war but for the troops eh?
Not even remotely close. The war was tragic, a disgusting abuse of our might. It was completely unnecessary and disgusting. Protesting this march to murder in no way is the same as hoping the US troops fail.
The economic policies undertaken by the current administration is far from a unilateral strike at a country that posed no threat to our security. We are in the midst of a depression that requires government intervention. This intervention is going to limit the damage to the American economy. Actively campaigning against these programs is nothing more than the pathetic bleatings of a partisan mouthpiece who can't face facts: Republican economic policy is responsible for this disaster. Actively campaigning for these programs to fail can ONLY mean that this bovine bloviator wants the American economy to remain in this depression.
Easily the least entertaining entertainer still in business.
|
|
| | | 919 | Perm Dude
ID: 5222248 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:16
|
I don't think we are in disagreement about what Rush Limbaugh wants.
Isn't it possible for the country to move forward in spite of Obama?
I really have no idea of what this means. Forward where? To the failed Bush policies, cheered on by Limbaugh and others, who got us into the problems the country now faces?
What you should be asking is: What happens to you if Obama, who enjoys wide and deep approval and was swept into office by voters expecting change from the past, succeeds?
|
|
| | | 920 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:18
|
Not even remotely close. The war was tragic, a disgusting abuse of our might. It was completely unnecessary and disgusting. Protesting this march to murder in no way is the same as hoping the US troops fail.
A lot of people say the same thing about the structure of the stimulus package.
|
|
| | | 921 | Seattle Zen
ID: 829410 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:22
|
A lot of people say the same thing about the structure of the stimulus package.
Really, who are the "people" who think that a stimulus package is a "march to murder"? Are you really that trite? Government spending is the equivalent of invading a country?
How frequently do you have to replace your knuckle-padded gloves?
|
|
| | | 922 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:24
|
Mincing words again. Typical when I engage you in discussion.
You gloss over the disgusting abuse of our might, unnecessary and disgusting.
Oh and you must not think prolonged recessions and depressions kill people?
|
|
| | | 923 | Perm Dude
ID: 5222248 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 12:29
|
Goldman Sachs: Worse before it gets better
Good to hear some straight talk from a financial services company. But Goldman echoes exactly what the Administration has said: That the stimulus package doesn't solve the problem but helps in the meantime.
Glenn Beck hasn't met an overwraught analogy that he won't throw at the Democrats. Where was he during the Bush free spending years? Oh yeah, taking on the Democrats for not signing on.
Beck, and others, seeming miss the irony of their whining about losing the opportunity for high-end taxpayers to eat at the government trough. Isn't charity supposed to be personal? Here's an opportunity to prove it.
|
|
| | | 924 | Seattle Zen
ID: 829410 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 13:09
|
The continued call for Republican economic policies to be implemented right now is the same as asking Andre Maginot to build a defense system for our country.
You failed, move on, we've decided to go with something that works.
|
|
| | | 925 | Boxman
ID: 337352111 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 13:12
|
You failed, move on, we've decided to go with something that works.
You're going to have to do better than that statement. Show some backup to that claim.
|
|
| | | 926 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 13:18
|
Look, what he's talking about is the absorption of as much of the private sector by the US government as possible, from the banking business, to the mortgage industry, the automobile business, to health care. I do not want the government in charge of all of these things.
Where is Obama talking about that? Even health care, which would be the closest of any of those issues mentioned, is Obama suggesting a complete absorption of the private sector.
There are lots of people talking about nationalizing banks(including some conservatives), but point me to where Obama is talking about it.
Point me to where Obama is talking nationalizing the mortgage and automobile industries.
Limbaugh says he's talking about which is a lie.
Had he said, I fear or It's possible, then one could respect him for using an honest evaluation.
As for banks, he could have referred to this AP story.
The Obama administration opposes nationalizing the banking industry, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Friday, but Gibbs did not absolutely rule out the possibility of nationalization. “This administration continues to strongly believe that a privately held banking system is the correct way to go, ensuring they are regulated sufficiently by this government,” Gibbs told reporters. “That’s been our belief for quite some time, and we continue to have it.” When a reporter asked to clarify whether that meant Obama was absolutely against a government takeover of the banking industry, asking, “But does that mean he will not nationalize the banks? Gibbs said, “It’s hard for me to be clearer than what I just said.” Free market advocates have expressed concern about the federal government taking over the banking industry since the $700 billion Troubled Assets Relief Act was enacted last fall. Earlier this week, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), said nationalizing banks is an option that should be left open. “We need to keep option three [nationalization] on the table for any bank that fails the stress test,” Graham said.
|
|
| | | 927 | Perm Dude
ID: 25219128 Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 11:54
|
Michael Steele: Slow-motion train wreck.
The only reason this zombie has lasted this long at the top is that the GOP is too weakened to even bother to remove him.
|
|
| | | 928 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 13:39
|
My take on that is that it's far, far more disappointing that he feels the need to try to "correct" what he said to pacify one wing of the party than to hear what he actually said in the first place.
|
|
| | | 929 | Perm Dude
ID: 6259179 Tue, Mar 17, 2009, 12:11
|
In response to all sorts of gaffes by Michael Steele, the response is-- a halt to TV appearances!
|
|
| | |
| | | 931 | Baldwin
ID: 38241203 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 14:21
|
Exactly why should a republican stand up to a republican leader who has more popular support than they themselves do?
|
|
| | | 932 | Perm Dude
ID: 302192110 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 14:25
|
Besides the fact that people like Rush have brought the GOP to its knees at the ballot box? No reason at all.
As for these particular Republicans, I'm not saying whether they should or should not be critizing Rush Limbaugh themsleves. But once they do, they should have the stones to continue the debate. Not slink back behind the skirts.
|
|
| | | 933 | Baldwin
ID: 38241203 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 14:40
|
This Dem triumphalism is so unseemly. It's like total amnesia that they were in the wilderness ever since the end of the failed great society experiment all the way back when disco was king.
But let them win a couple election cycles by surfing the economic cycle and the tail end of a 20 yr bull market and you'd think they've always been America's darling.
Maybe eight years of the sychophantic press licking Obama's boots to a shine and dems can actually boast in public that they are the class warfare marxists that they are.
|
|
| | | 934 | Seattle Zen
ID: 38256219 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 15:05
|
Exactly why should a republican stand up to a republican leader who has more popular support than they themselves do?
That's like saying that Guinea-Bissau has a higher GDP per capita than Burundi.
Everyone outside his listeners thinks he's an idiot, and his audience is shrinking.
"Rush Limbaugh, the Guinea-Bissau of popular opinion!"
|
|
| | | 935 | Baldwin
ID: 38241203 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 19:57
|
Telling that lie often enuff seems to be the Dem talking point of the year.
|
|
| | | 936 | Seattle Zen
ID: 38256219 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 20:02
|

This just arrived in my mailbox. Who is this irrelevant fellow, Baldwin?
|
|
| | | 937 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 20:21
|
Its not a question of Limbaugh's relevance. It is whether or not he is the leader of the Republican Party.
|
|
| | | 938 | Baldwin
ID: 38241203 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 20:30
|
Actually he's not the leader of the Republican party. He's only the defacto leader of the only faction of the Republican party that actually represents the people.
|
|
| | | 939 | Seattle Zen
ID: 38256219 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 21:02
|
Its not a question of Limbaugh's relevance. It is whether or not he is the leader of the Republican Party.
So he could be both irrelevant and the leader of the Republican Party. Now that you mention it, yeah, that sounds about right.
|
|
| | | 940 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 21:09
|
He's only the defacto leader of the only faction of the Republican party that actually represents the people.
As stated by Republicans or the liberals and their media attack dogs? I would caution against going with the consensus pick the media wants if for no better reason than to look at the election results with their darling John McCain last fall.
|
|
| | | 941 | Perm Dude
ID: 442272116 Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 23:14
|
I thought the media darling was Barack Obama.
|
|
| | | 942 | bibA
ID: 22131614 Sun, Mar 22, 2009, 11:09
|
938 He's only the defacto leader of the only faction of the Republican party that actually represents the people.
940 As stated by Republicans or the liberals and their media attack dogs?
Lemme get this straight Box. Are you saying Baldwin is just a Republican, or a liberal and one of their media attack dogs?
|
|
| | | 943 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Mar 22, 2009, 11:41
|
I wasn't aware that I was attacking or refering to Baldwin in that post.
|
|
| | | 944 | Tree
ID: 61411921 Sun, Mar 22, 2009, 12:42
|
He's only the defacto leader of the only faction of the Republican party that actually represents the people.
nice oxymoron (cue original comeback from Baldwin involving use of the word "moron"), especially considering the definition from Merriam-Webster - although the "self-seeking" part is so perfect for Limbaugh and his sheep of fools.
1 : a party or group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking : 2 : party spirit especially when marked by dissension
this is a pretty good example of why you, and your beliefs, are outdated, in the minority, and will continue to push the Republican party into obscurity...
|
|
| | |
| | |
| | | 947 | walk
ID: 181472714 Thu, Mar 26, 2009, 14:30
|
Boehner: I'll get back to you
The republicans' budget proposal = big tax cut...and the rest is tbd.
|
|
| | | 948 | Perm Dude
ID: 54242267 Thu, Mar 26, 2009, 16:45
|
The more I read about Rep Bachmann, the more I think: What a crank.
Reminds me of Helen Chenoweth.
|
|
| | | 949 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Mar 26, 2009, 17:54
|
Senate Republicans skip out on White House briefing on the Afghan War Senate Republican Leaders Mitch McConnell (Ky.) and Jon Kyl (Ariz.) declined the president's invitation to be briefed Thursday on Afghanistan war policy going forward.
McConnell spokesman Don Stewart said that the invitation came yesterday and that the leadership already had a meeting scheduled with more than a dozen Republican senators. It was too difficult to rearrange all those schedules, he said.
In general, he said, McConnell has attended a number of briefings at the White House and will continue to do so. A White House aide said that Kyl and McConnell would be invited to a future briefing on Afghan strategy.
The decision came as reports emerged of Obama's plans to dispatch 4,000 additional soldiers and hundreds of civilian advisers to Afghanistan this spring and summer, along with increasing aid to neighboring Pakistan.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Sen. Charles Schumer (D-Ill.) and Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) represented Senate Democratic leadership. House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio), Minority Whip Eric Cantor (R-Va.) and Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) were also present, as were House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) and Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.).
"This was nothing more than a snub -- pure and simple," said a senior Senate Democratic aide. In honesty I have no idea to what extent this should be perceived as a snub. But I know full-well what the right's reaction would have been to the headline if it were Senate Democrats turning down a GWB invite to a briefing on changing war policy and foreign policy. Two full days worth of strutting by the likes of Limbaugh, blog posts ranging from snide to ferocious and FOX talking heads questioning their patriotism and charges of anti-americanism and calling them "defeatocrats", followed by a rehash on the Sunday morning shows as one of the big stories of the week.
Lets see what kind of legs this story grows in the mainstream media between now and Sunday.
|
|
| | |
| | |
|
|