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| Posted by: Perm Dude
- Dude [030792616] Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 01:11
California Assembly approves same-sex bill.
In a typical flip-flop, a Republican decides that it is the courts rather than the legislature that should decide this issue: Schwarzenegger believes the issue should be decided by the courts, not by his signature on legislation.
So they are "activist judges" when they are "pro-gay" but it's proper when they decide on a "pro-family" way? |
| | | 1 | sarge33rd
ID: 27563010 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 10:01
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"Schwarzenegger can't afford to sign the gay marriage license bill," he said. "He'll actually become a hero to the majority of Californians when he vetoes it."
That I believe, is an entirely false statement.
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| | | 2 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 10:02
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He'll be a hero to Orange County, but that's about it.
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| | | 3 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 11:02
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Proposition 22, specifying that marriage is between between a man and a woman, won in California 61-39. So the 61% may appreciate a veto.
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| | | 4 | sarge33rd
ID: 27563010 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 11:06
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gee, and minds have never ever been known to change huh Toral?
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| | | 5 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 11:13
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Or, in the 5 years since, some may have changed their minds. Obviously things in California have been moving toward legalizing gay marriages.
Republicans simply want it both ways. Or all ways. Either ban it through the legislature. Or if the legislature goes the "wrong way" then ban it through popular vote. Or ban it through selectively "activist judges."
Hard to believe you still think Republicans have some sort of overall political philosophy when it's obvious that, on the ground and on the issues that matter, they are willing to chuck the veneer of philosophical coverage in order to just get their way.
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| | | 6 | Toral
ID: 53422511 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 11:20
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It's not Republicans as such who prefer democratic choice in matters like this, but conservatives and moderates, including many Democrats. Schwarzenegger isn't one; he's a social liberal. So it's as newsworthy that he opposes majority Republican philosophy here as it is when Zell Miller disagrees with the national Democrats.
Toral
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| | | 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 27563010 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 11:56
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It's not Republicans as such who prefer democratic choice
Had you ended your sentence/statement right there, I'd have found myself having to agree with you.
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| | | 8 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 12:32
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Hard to believe you still think Republicans have some sort of overall political philosophy when it's obvious that, on the ground and on the issues that matter, they are willing to chuck the veneer of philosophical coverage in order to just get their way.
Yes in crazy liberal states republicans are willing to put up with Arlen Specter, and Lieberman and Schwartzenegger. No party is so rigid that they wouldn't do the same in this system.
Sounds to me like Ahnold is just trying to take the decision making out of his hands because it would be political suicide to vote his personal beliefs on this issue.
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| | | 9 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Wed, Sep 07, 2005, 12:58
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Yeah, a real leader you got there.
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| | | 10 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Mon, May 19, 2008, 19:35
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I don't know what makes me happier, the fact that the California Supreme Court ruled that Californians have a constitutional right to marry people of the same sex or that no one has mentioned the ruling in four days. I guess we are all cool with it or don't really care all that much. Outstanding!
The California Supreme Court, striking down two state laws that had limited marriages to unions between a man and a woman, ruled on Thursday that same-sex couples have a constitutional right to marry.
“In view of the substance and significance of the fundamental constitutional right to form a family relationship,” Chief Justice George wrote, “the California Constitution properly must be interpreted to guarantee this basic civil right to all Californians, whether gay or heterosexual, and to same-sex couples as well as to opposite-sex couples.” Gay marriage: Where to now?
The understanding of legal concepts such as marriage have changed throughout history. The definition of civil marriage once included that such unions had to last for life without the possibility of divorce. In biblical times, husbands were allowed to have multiple wives. Civil marriage used to make wives subject to their husband's total control. And, until 60 years ago, California law provided that the relationships of white and non-white partners were not marriage. The California court's majority opinion aptly quotes the U.S. Supreme Court's observation in 2003 that "times can blind us to certain truths, and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress." That is certainly true of past changes to the meaning of marriage, and that's why the current generation increasingly understands that excluding same-sex couples from the joys, stature and respect of marriage is wrong.
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| | | 11 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Mon, May 19, 2008, 19:39
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I don't know what makes me happier, the fact that the California Supreme Court ruled that Californians have a constitutional right to marry people of the same sex or that no one has mentioned the ruling in four days. I guess we are all cool with it or don't really care all that much. Outstanding!
States rights. Fvck yeah!
Now just don't complain if Illinois bans it and defines marriage as between a man and a woman.
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| | | 12 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Mon, May 19, 2008, 20:12
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I'd say that John McCain is delighted, considering that the hugely unpopular issue of gay marriage will undoubtedly be on the November ballot in Cali in the form of Constitutional referendum against it. McCain will be with the 60% or so of Californians voting for the Amendment, a lot of whom might not have been motivvated enough to come out and vote Republican.
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| | | 13 | Boldwin
ID: 58452178 Mon, May 19, 2008, 21:48
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I guess we are all cool with it or don't really care all that much. Outstanding! - SZ
*roll*
We're just waiting for the inevitable referendum overturning this.
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| | | 14 | Pancho Villa
ID: 40421513 Mon, May 19, 2008, 23:33
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I was in the the Bay Area this past weekend(stayed in the same place in Alameda where we got together a couple years ago, nerve).
I expected a big deal in the press and lots of chatter within our family group, who is very politically aware.
The SF Chronicle didn't really play it up that much, and within our group it didn't even register a yea or nay. Given that the attendees were mostly either Bay Areans or Seattlites, I suppose it was just assumed that no one was in opposition.
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| | | 15 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 12448197 Tue, May 20, 2008, 04:35
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McCain Exceptionalism By WILLIAM KRISTOL Published: May 19, 2008 (NY Times)
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Furthermore, the action of the California court will remind voters of the Defense of Marriage Act, which says a state is not required to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states and which was passed overwhelmingly by Congress and signed by Bill Clinton in 1996. McCain voted for and supports it. Obama opposes it.
...
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| | | 16 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 10:35
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From that same article:
I can't find a single recent instance of a candidate who ultimately became his party's nominee losing a primary by this kind of margin
Uh, Bill?
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| | | 17 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 10:41
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On Thursday, the California Supreme Court did precisely what much of the American public doesn’t want judges doing: it made social policy from the bench.
Wrong again on this one. Instead of overruling the people or their representatives, the CA Supreme Court agreed with what the legislature did twice and some cities (like SF) tried to do on their own. In fact, the California Supreme Court took on the case at the urging of California's governor.
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| | | 18 | revvingparson Sustainer
ID: 059856912 Tue, May 20, 2008, 13:03
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PD to be fair to context you need add his second sentence With a 4-to-3 majority, the judges chose not to defer to a ballot initiative approved by 61 percent of California voters eight years ago, which defined marriage as between a man and a woman.
Therefore it could be concluded that what the CA Supreme Court,what the legislature did twice and some cities (like SF)tried to do on their own has gone against what 61% of the CA electorate voted 8 years.
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| | | 19 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 13:18
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That actually isn't entirely at odds, rev. But that initiative (which, 8 years ago, was a statutory one), doesn't actually clarify anything. The Court struck down Prop 22 on equal protection reasons, and putting it into the Constitution without any clarifying language isn't going to really help matters, IMO. Does it do away with domestic partnerships? Does it prevent California from granting equal protection to those partnerships as marriages? It doesn't appear to answer or even address the equal protection questions the Court ruled on.
It seems to be merely defining what "marriage" is without even addressing the question of whether people in other types of unions can sue for equal protection for their partnerships.
If the initiative is framed to exclude rights for same-sex couples (as it will be framed on the Left), support drops to about half, to 33% (pdf).
8 years ago the effect on same sex partnerships already in existence was never raised for Prop 22. Now it will be, as many people will have married since then.
The ballot initiate writers, I think, are being a bit too sly here (like English-only initiatives, which state something like "The official language of the United States shall be English" without mentioning the effect (or even the goal) of such an initiative). I think that slyness will be exposed for the reasons above.
I agree with MBJ that this will help McCain a bit. I'm not sure this will put California into play, but it will force Obama into playing defense there which can only be a good thing for McCain.
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| | | 20 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Tue, May 20, 2008, 13:21
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Instead of overruling the people
LOL - That's precisely what they did. That one gets the Spin Award this month - no other submission nedd be made.
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| | | 21 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 13:24
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That was framed very crappily by me--my bad. I meant to confront Kristol's assertion that the judges were making policy whole cloth (which I don't think that are or were).
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| | | 22 | Charlotte
ID: 144492012 Tue, May 20, 2008, 13:50
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There are always people who are against equality. Marriage is a basic civil right that should be attainable by all Americans if they choose. For those who are uncomfortable with gay marriage check out our short produced to educate & defuse the controversy. It has a way of opening closed minds & provides some sanity on the issue: www.OUTTAKEonline.com
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| | | 23 | Boldwin
ID: 58452178 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:22
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PD
Your spin changes nothing. Voters are not out to deny 'right's to people. Give them whatever benefits you want. They just aren't giving away the term marriage to any twisted pairing.
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| | | 24 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:25
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Well, if they want to claim the word "marriage" while giving the same benefits to other partnerships I don't really have a problem with that. They should probably spell that out, however.
Should pass easily, if so.
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| | | 25 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:25
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They just aren't giving away the term marriage to any twisted pairing
Marriage is already in it's own twisted pairing with government.
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| | | 26 | Boldwin
ID: 58452178 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:28
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PD
And further after you manage to steal the FLDS children on the grounds of polygamy while simultaneously mustering the political muscle to legally recognize as a 'marriage, a coyote, a transexual, a dead guy and his nephew...you still will not have confered the actual status of marriage on them.
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| | | 27 | Seattle Zen
ID: 29241823 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:30
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THAT'S the Baldwin we all know.
Now, back to ignoring him.
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| | | 28 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:32
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"...and get off my lawn!"
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| | | 29 | Boldwin
ID: 58452178 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:37
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Damn hippies!
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| | | 30 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:42
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Minority Leader Roy Blunt's comment seems typical:
Blunt: California Supreme Court Overturns Will of the People 5.15.2008
WASHINGTON, D.C. House Republican Whip Roy Blunt (Mo.) issued the following statement today condemning the overreach by California's Supreme Court overturning the will of the people of California that voted in 2000 to define marriage as being between a man and a woman:
"Today, the decision of unelected judges to overturn the will of the people of California on the question of same-sex marriage demonstrates the lengths that unelected judges will go to substitute their own worldview for the wisdom of the American people. The Supreme Court of California chose today to legislate from the bench without any concern or deference for the democratic process.
"This ruling effectively opens the door to allowing the opinion of this state's court on same-sex marriage to stand as the law of the land for the entire country. These California values are not the values of the majority of the American people and the manner in which this decision was rendered is not consistent with the values of a democratic society."
Of course, California's judges are elected. And the Defense of Marriage Act (passed in 1996 under the worry that some state or states might allow same-sex marriage, forcing other states to recognize the marriage under the Full Faith and Credit Clause) makes the second paragraph moot. He also doesn't seem to realize that his gratuitous swipe at "California values" is also a swipe at those people (i.e., Californians) who he thinks were robbed.
the manner in which this decision was rendered is not consistent with the values of a democratic society.
Clearly the judiciary exists merely as a rubber stamp for Rep Blunt. A rubber stamp for certain, but not all, "values."
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| | | 31 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, May 21, 2008, 15:04
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Excuse me but isnt the definition of a marriage, (a state of being recognized by law), a matter of law and therefore the purvue of those in the Judiciary vs those of the general populace? Or would Blunt and his supporters, have General Elections held for defining Rape, Murder, Assault, etc etc...to be defined by the general population?
I fail to see how the Judiciary, determining the Constitutionality of Legislation et al, is over-reaching. Isn't that, part and parcel of their defined duty????
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| | | 32 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Wed, May 21, 2008, 15:42
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First - Rep Blunt is right that the Cali ruling is wholly undemocratic. I believe that, based upon the Cali Constitution it is likely warranted - but then, the Cali Constitution is meant to support other values over democracy.
sarge - therefore the purvue of those in the Judiciary vs those of the general populace? Or would Blunt and his supporters, have General Elections held for defining Rape, Murder, Assault, etc etc...to be defined by the general population?
uh--yes. that is what we do in democracies - we let the people make laws - they are not delivered to us from on high. And, in fact, Cali, more so than in any other state, makes laws directly by vote of the general populace through their referendum procedure.
However, the general populace has seen fit to limit its abilty by anti-democratic values embodied in Constitutions, Constitutions that were voted on and can be changed by, guess who - the general populace.
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| | | 33 | Perm Dude
ID: 154482114 Wed, May 21, 2008, 15:48
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ruling is wholly undemocratic
I'd give you partial on this, MBJ. The elected Legislature twiced passed the law the Court was reviewing.
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| | | 34 | Perm Dude
ID: 3345239 Fri, May 23, 2008, 16:14
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Glenn Greenwald on the reaction of the Right
Money quote:
Contrary to Wittes' extremely confused argument, a court striking down a law supported by large majorities is not antithetical to our system of government. Such a judicial act is central to our system of government. That's because, strictly speaking, the U.S. is not a "democracy" as much as it a "constitutional republic," precisely because constitutional guarantees trump democratic majorities. This is all just seventh-grade civics, something that the Brookings scholar and those condemning the California court's decision on similar grounds seem to have forgotten.
Some on the Right believe the job of the judiciary is to, essentially, get out of the way of the "people" (whether directly or through their legislators, whichever side happened to agree with the Right's position on the issue in question).
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| | | 35 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, May 23, 2008, 16:59
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Right MBJ...the people vote for laws or Reps to write/pass laws, and the Courts interpret those laws for ocmpliance with the Constitution. BECAUSE something was passed by majority vote, does not make it Constitutionally valid. Surely, you know this...so why would you argue otherwise?
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| | | 36 | Boldwin
ID: 58452178 Fri, May 23, 2008, 19:09
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uh--yes. that is what we do in democracies - we let the people make laws - they are not delivered to us from on high. - MBJ
Curiously enuff the 'beast slouching towards Gomorrah' is appealing to the theory of 'natural rights' which actually are delivered from on high and embodied in constitution...
...too seek validation...state approval for perversion. [secular humanist and therefore banned state establishment of religion]
We'll see if the consciences of enuff people have been seared beyond all sensitivity because 3/5 of the population can constitutionally overturn perversions of the constitution such as Row v Wade or the political agenda of liberal scotus judges claiming to see gay marriage hiding in the constitution closet.
The conscience seeming to have been the vehicle for detirmining what constitutes God-given natural rights in the first place.
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| | | 37 | Perm Dude
ID: 156503111 Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 17:10
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Prop 8 backers angry about description of the proposition on the ballot.
"Changes California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry."
Backers of Proposition 8 argued that they are not trying to eliminate anyone's rights but are simply seeking to restore the definition of marriage that existed in California before May 15, when the state Supreme Court struck down the law defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
Of course, eliminating the right of same-sex couples to marry in California is exactly what they want to do. And if the prop somehow didn't do that, they would keep at it until their goal is realized. The title seems entirely truthful to me.
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| | | 38 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 10:05
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For those who say 'I don't see how it effects anyone else, what harm does it do anyone else?'...
Vermont reaches into Virginia and steals child from biological mom, hands her to homosexual ex.
Despite Virginia's strong marriage law to the contrary, two higher courts fail to prevent this action."If Vermont can declare from the bench that a legal stranger is a mommy to another woman's child and then have it enforced in a state with one of the strongest marriage amendments in the country, then, on the issues of marriage and family, our country will no longer be the United States of America but instead will be the United States according to Massachusetts, California, or Vermont."
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| | | 39 | Perm Dude
ID: 5891638 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 10:20
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Lisa Miller left the homosexual lifestyle and became a Christian...
Mutually exclusive?
Anyway, the story confuses marriage rights with custody rights. What a surprise.
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| | | 42 | Perm Dude
ID: 5891638 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 10:28
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You missed my points (there were two). Did they confuse you, or are you unwilling to release your WND-talkingpoints to think another competing thought?
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| | | 43 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 10:31
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You feel that the gay person stealing the child from it's biological mom, is some kind of hero?
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| | | 44 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 10:33
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Unbelievable.
Have a look in the mirror, PD.
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| | | 45 | Perm Dude
ID: 5891638 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 10:37
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You know The Onion is satire? (Real satire, not Ann Coulter "I'm going to be mean but hide behind a 'just kidding' when confronted" kind of satire).
The title of the WND piece is "Lesbian demands 6-year-old be taken from mom." For them (and you) the issue is homosexuality, and the applicability of same-sex marriage. The author of the piece (and you) fail to address what the Court was addressing (which has nothing to do with marriage, and even less to do with her sexuality).
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| | | 46 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 10:41
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There is no issue involved in that case that trumps 'biological mom'...
...unless you ask a liberal.
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| | | 47 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 11:31
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There is no issue involved in that case that trumps 'biological mom'...
...unless you ask a liberal.
well, unless there was any sort of contract entered into regarding their relationship and related custody issues.
if two gay men have a surrogate mother their child, then six years later she comes back and demands custody, does that trump everything else?
or, in the miller/jenkins case, what happens if the sperm donor comes back and then HE demands custody?
miller and jenkins intentionally went to vermont to have their relationship legally recognized as a civil union. then they intentionally decided, TOGETHER, to have a baby.
THEN, they actually MOVED to vermont from virginia, so they could live in a state that recognized their union.
they even tried to have a SECOND child.
when they eventually split, Miller filled out paperwork to dissolve their civil union. she asked the court to award her partner Jenkins "suitable contact" with their child.
this is a legal issue, not a gay issue, although people like you would prefer it not be a legal issue. for a deeper, less biased look into the case, you can go here...
it's tricky situation. i'm not sure who is more "correct" here, but i think there needs to be an equal custody situation.
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| | | 48 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 11:57
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It's all situational ethics with liberals.
The movie 'Saw' is their MO.
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| | | 49 | Perm Dude
ID: 5891638 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 11:59
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Heh. Yeah, like you've never gone relativistic when faced with the failures of "conservatives" the last 8 years. Accusing your political opponents of the same things you are doing is the GOP's MO.
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| | | 50 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 12:13
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Like the FLDS case, like the way Germany is going off Hitler-style on homeschoolers, like California liberals who are constantly trying to follow Germany in this anti-'home school' putsch...
...sooner or later the globalists are comin for your kids unless you teach your kids secular humanism and violate your traditional values.
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| | | 51 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 13:03
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i hardly think that a lesbian in vermont is one of your much-feared globalists.
still, it's endearing the way you resort to buzz words and talking points when confronted with evidence against your all-over-the-map "points"...
cute even.
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| | | 52 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 16:52
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I've actually read the fine print. Go read Goals2000. They have some very comprehensive plans for intervening in the family to destroy traditional values. Very detailed plans. If you have any intention of instilling traditional values in your children you will need to reach them before the age Moses' basket was placed in the Nile
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| | | 53 | Perm Dude
ID: 5891638 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 16:55
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I'm sorry--where did you find that this "lesbian" was trying to instill Goals2000 aims into their child?
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| | | 54 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 16:57
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It goes without saying that she does not intend to transmit traditional values.
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| | | 55 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 17:23
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lol. you are so fantastic for laughs a minute with the dumb things you say.
might as well go on record saying "all jehovah's witnesses are pedophiles"...
i mean, why the hell not. if you're going to go presuming something about someone because they're gay, i'm gonna go about presuming something about someone because they're a JW.
lol. too funny baldwin.
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| | | 56 | Perm Dude
ID: 5891638 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 19:16
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Many things go without saying. Most of us refrain from saying them.
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| | | 57 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Fri, Oct 03, 2008, 23:20
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If Tree refrains from saying homosexuality is a traditional family value, I will refrain from stating the blindingly obvious.
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| | | 58 | Tree
ID: 538582716 Sat, Oct 04, 2008, 17:48
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Baldwin - what makes homosexuality any less traditional than whatever you're proclaiming to be traditional?
queers have been around since the beginning of time. and, quite possibly, before humans.
by the same token you use, i don't really consider your family to be traditional, nor do i consider your beliefs to be traditional.
but i've got no problems with you raising children, because, it's your right to raise them as you see fit, teaching them whatever values you want.
EVERY parent should have that right. you, however, choose the path of discrimination, instead of acceptance.
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| | | 59 | Boldwin
ID: 40850297 Sat, Oct 04, 2008, 18:14
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Before the big bang, huh?
By your measuring stick they'll be stealing kids from biological moms and handing them to prostitutes next.
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| | | 60 | Tree
ID: 12938521 Sun, Oct 05, 2008, 22:45
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you're an idiot. really.
even if you believe only half of what you type on this board, you're an idiot.
why anyone bothers discussing things with you - myself included - boggles the mind.
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| | | 61 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 16:26
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The Connecticut Supreme Court ruled on Friday that same-sex couples have the right to marry.

Oooh, Baldwin must be steaming, just look at those two happy people!
“Today is really a great day for equality in Connecticut. Today’s decision really fulfills the hopes and dreams of gay and lesbian couples in Connecticut to live as full and equal citizens.”
Obama, gays getting married... these last eight years were for nothing!
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| | | 62 | Boldwin
ID: 5937910 Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 17:16
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This is exactly how you know the 'new world order' the Bilderbergers, globalists, communitarians, progressives, the MSM, etc. are working towards are demonstrably not the prophesied Kingdom of God, so don't let anyone ever tell you that it is.
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| | | 63 | Tree
ID: 13714198 Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 17:26
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i believe you are correct, Baldwin.
Fullofhooey, chapter 16, verse 2, explicitly states "Those that are in the Main Stream Media are NOT working toward the Kingdom of God."
it's an awful, awful world. gay people can get married. black people can be president. Baldwin's head is spinning.
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| | | 64 | Boldwin
ID: 5937910 Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 16:23
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Obama's race doesn't bother me at all. This does tho...
Barney Frank's love affair with Fannie Mae.Both Frank and Moses assured the Wall Street Journal in 1992 that they took pains to avoid any conflicts of interest. Critics, however, remain skeptical.
"It’s absolutely a conflict," said Dan Gainor, vice president of the Business & Media Institute. "He was voting on Fannie Mae at a time when he was involved with a Fannie Mae executive. How is that not germane?
"If this had been his ex-wife and he was Republican, I would bet every penny I have - or at least what’s not in the stock market - that this would be considered germane," added Gainor, a T. Boone Pickens Fellow. "But everybody wants to avoid it because he’s gay. It’s the quintessential double standard."
A top GOP House aide agreed.
"C’mon, he writes housing and banking laws and his boyfriend is a top exec at a firm that stands to gain from those laws?" the aide told FOX News. "No media ever takes note? Imagine what would happen if Frank’s political affiliation was R instead of D? Imagine what the media would say if [GOP former] Chairman [Mike] Oxley’s wife or [GOP presidential nominee John] McCain’s wife was a top exec at Fannie for a decade while they wrote the nation’s housing and banking laws."
Frank’s office did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Frank met Moses in 1987, the same year he became the first openly gay member of Congress.
"I am the only member of the congressional gay spouse caucus," Moses wrote in the Washington Post in 1991. "On Capitol Hill, Barney always introduces me as his lover."
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| | | 65 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 09:08
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didn't want to start another thread about this, but maybe Baldwin is right after all and the US is being taken over by Muslim extremists.
at the very least, we've got a lot of hate in common with those Muslim nations he so adores.
US balks at backing condemnation of anti-gay laws
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| | | 66 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 10:00
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Before I comment on what I've been thinking lately on this issue, I'd like someone to layout the case as to why conservatives should be for gay marriage.
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| | | 67 | Perm Dude
ID: 381159198 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 11:51
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It isn't that conservatives should be for it--it is that they shouldn't be against it.
Marriage is a private matter and shouldn't be subject to interference by others. Conservative principles suggest the maximization of the privacy, not that government should decide who is and isn't marriagable.
Marriages solidify people and communities.
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| | | 68 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 12:28
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Besides that, the link in #65 is about laws against being a homosexual, not gay marriage.
As most everyone knows, there are nations in the world, mostly Islamic, where the mere fact of being a homosexual can be cause for imprisonment or even death. Tell me why conservatives should be opposed to basic human rights.
Now I'm off to drive to California in what appears to be treacherous winter conditions. Wish me luck.
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| | | 69 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 13:05
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Marriages solidify people and communities - PD
America [not to mention the rest of the world] by it's behavior and redefined divorce laws has already taken marriage from a sacred institution...
...to one which people may have gotten a quicky divorce while drunk and in lust in Vegas...
...to a no fault quicky divorce made up on papers from a website for less than $200.
A divorce I might add that was already on the mind of the young newlyweds, 'no, I'm not sure, but I can always get a divorce',' why yes I have the prenup documents right here'.
If something already made so threadbare is a stabilizing anchor of society, society had best not further degrade the institution.
While you are at it, PD, dig up some statistics of what percentage of 'gay marriages' [where they are legal] actally are stable, since you claim they honor that and act stable.
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| | | 70 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 13:27
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I'll take a shot at #66 as well.
It's important to distinguish between the secular definition of marriage (which is, in essence, a civil contract between two individuals) and a religious definition of marriage, which is, well--whatever that religion says it is, and I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what their religion should or should not say. If a church wants to perform and recognize gay marriage, or not, it's not my concern nor should it be government's.
But from a purely civil perspective (and civil is the purview of government, after all), marriage is shorthand for a bundle of economic rights and responsibilities involving property rights and inheritance, tax rights and responsibilities, custody laws, and a bunch of other issues.
From a purely civil perspective, the simple question to me is why should two sane, willing people who wish to enter into a legally-recognized civil contract not be able to, when other sane wiling people can (or, at minimum, why should one group of people have huge hurdles placed in their path)?
And from a church/state perspective, if some religions DO recognize and perform gay marriages, doesn't government refusing to recognize those marriages on an equal basis with other religious marriages provide an establishment of religion that the First Amendment speaks against?
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| | | 71 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 13:28
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this isn't about gay marriage. or divorce.
this is about anti-gay LAWS, something that Baldwin's much hated-Muslim nations and, apparently, the United States, embrace.
funny to me he has so much in common with those nations in which he has such disregard for.
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| | | 72 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 13:41
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Correction:
...to one which people may have gotten a quicky divorce while drunk and in lust in Vegas...
Should have read:
...to one which people may have gotten a quicky marriage while drunk and in lust in Vegas...
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| | | 73 | Perm Dude
ID: 381159198 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 13:42
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While you are at it, PD, dig up some statistics of what percentage of 'gay marriages' [where they are legal] actally are stable, since you claim they honor that and act stable.
How many heterosexual marriages would be "stable" is marriage was banned between heterosexuals?
We're talking about people who want to commit to each other. By their nature that is stability. What you'd like to do, Baldwin, is force them to either have their stability under the radar, or set themselves up in sham hetero marriages [with people like your kids?] in order to enjoy societal marriage benefits.
Nice. I also like how many "conservatives" are all-too willing for their government to nullify marriages performed between same sex couples by churches as well. Baldwin would have all same-sex marriages performed by, say, the UUA churches to be rendered null by his government. And he says he speaks for the "true conservative." (!)
I completely agree with Baldwin on divorce being the problem it is (as a Catholic, obviously, I take a somewhat dim view of quickie marriages and no-fault divorces). And the institution of marriage is, indeed, at risk these days, But not from gays--it is at risk as a result of easy divorces.
The institution of marriage is unaffected by the ability of gays to commit themselves in a marriage. In fact, given the ease of divorce in this country, it might even be somewhat strengthened with an injection of committed couples--just as the institution of marriage was strengthened when members of different races could marry.
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| | | 74 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 14:08
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Gay 'marriage' in the Netherlands.
Interesting results.
Interest quickly evaporated after it was legalized. Year by year saw large decreases in gay marriages, like numbers cut in half roughly each succeeding year. IMO the gay communities interest is far and away merely forcing society to respect and approve of homosexuality. They don't really want to be bound to a lifetime commitment.
The rates of out-of-wedlock childbirths skyrocketted after gay marriage was legalized so clearly it degraded the institution of marriage in society.
The rate of homosexual marriages dropped each successive year but so too did the rate of heterosexual marriages which had been rising each year until the year homosexual 'marriage' was legalized. Again the institution of marriage was degraded.
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| | | 75 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 14:17
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The rates of out-of-wedlock childbirths skyrocketted after gay marriage was legalized so clearly it degraded the institution of marriage in society.
Well there's an undeniable correlation! /sarcasm
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| | | 76 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 14:25
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What you'd like to do, Baldwin, is force them to either have their stability under the radar, or set themselves up in sham hetero marriages [with people like your kids?] in order to enjoy societal marriage benefits. - PD
This is one huge flaw in forums. No one can keep track of each other's specific positions.
I've stated that the state can confer 'civil union' status and any legal rights they wish to extend to whoever they want, so long as long as they don't tinker with the religious institution of marriage. Funny that people who are hellbent on keeping the state seperate from religion, are equally adamant on the government defining a religious institution.
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| | | 77 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 14:33
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This is one huge flaw in forums. No one can keep track of each other's specific positions.
You know I've asked posters many times over the years to try to keep posts on topic and in apropriate threads for precisely the purpose of easy referece to such things as positions we've espoused in the past. I have been consistantly met with nothing but hostility at every turn and was even sarcastically dubbed the forum cop by a certain friend of yours for my efforts and I don't ever recall receiving even a shred support from you in defense.
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| | | 78 | Razor
ID: 181051618 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 14:36
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Actually, this is one "gay marriage" proponent that doesn't give a flying crap whether religious institutions want to sanction gay marriages or not. Gay marriage is a civil rights issue for me and nothing more. If no country in the church wants to recognize homosexuality as legitimate, that would be unfortunate, but that's their prerogative.
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| | | 79 | Perm Dude
ID: 381159198 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 14:45
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The rates of out-of-wedlock childbirths skyrocketted after gay marriage was legalized so clearly it degraded the institution of marriage in society.
Ha! As soon as gays got into the game, people started having children without being married? I think we're having a definition problem: The health of the institution of marriage is about people, you know, who are actually married.
Funny that people who are hellbent on keeping the state seperate from religion, are equally adamant on the government defining a religious institution.
You realize what Prop 8 was about, yes?
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| | | 80 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 14:59
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Re: 74...
"Interest quickly evaporated after it was legalized. Year by year saw large decreases in gay marriages, like numbers cut in half roughly each succeeding year."
Now, the actual quote from the link: "And what, exactly, will they have accomplished? The first legal gay wedding ceremonies in the Netherlands took place on April 1, 2001. By November 2002, however, gay-marriage enthusiasts were forced to admit that interest in this new institution was fading. Since April 2001, each quarter has brought a further decline in the number of gay marriages, falling from 2,500 in 2001 to less than 1,500 last year. As of April 2004, only 5,916 of Holland's roughly 55,000 gay couples had tied the knot."
1/2 * 2500 < 1500, so it hasn't fallen by half year by year, as Boldwin states. In fact (if you look at the 5,916 number and realize that's over a three year period), that means that the THIRD year was at roughly 1500 (the sequence being roughly 2500, 2000, 1500--this would be 6,000 total, which isn't exactly 5,916 but it's a hell of a lot closer than falling by half each year). If this rough sequence is right, they've fallen by 20% during those three years, not 50%. (I'd be interested to see the numbers for the last four years, but not interested enough to go looking for them.)
And really, are those numbers at all surprising? I'd be SHOCKED if the numbers did NOT look like that. When you consider that some small number of couples were probably wanting to do this for a number of years, it's hardly surprising that they would do that in the earliest available time. And once you take those most-committed couples out of the mix, the numbers SHOULD fall for a period of time. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd suggest that the numbers should fall for about two more years, though not nearly as sharply, before beginning a slow uptick relative to the population growth as a whole (if indeed population is growing, something else I haven't looked at).
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| | | 81 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 15:06
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And what is your explanation for heterosexuals suddenly losing interest in the institution after years of steady rate gains? This should be good.
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| | | 82 | Perm Dude
ID: 381159198 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 15:17
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You don't have the facts to back up that statement, Baldwin. You would first need to establish some criteria for measuring the health of the institution (out-of-wedlock birth rates in a liberal country. Please.). Then you'd need to establish that, previous to that year, there was "steady rate gaine" (hint: There wasn't. Read your source again, who cherry picked the year 1989 to fit the inconvenient fact of his measurement falling years before it should have).
Then you'd need to establish a connection between gay marriages and that change in interest. You haven't made even a cursory attempt at this, the most important point. All you can point to is an article which uses a Michael Moore-like timeline to try to fit them together without establishing any causality at all.
As usual, you throw out some crap pseudo-social science, then dare us to prove it isn't true. That's not how science works, but this is no surprise since you might be a creationist in which proof is a result of belief level rather than the rigors of evidence and what not.
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| | | 83 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 15:27
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I might hypothesize that a \smallish number of homosexuals who were marrying someone of the opposite sex for various reasons no longer felt the obligation to do so for reasons other than being in a committed relationship. (Which would be people that shouldn't really be getting married at all, of course.)
Is your explanation that heterosexuals were discouraged from getting married because if homosexuals could do it, it made it utterly meaningless for them to commit to another heterosexual?
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| | | 84 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 15:40
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Of course, if you're being as intellectually dishonest with the rest of your argument as you were with the, um, "creative interpretation" of the raw numbers, this won't really go anywhere anyway.
Prediction: another pointless question changing the subject again will follow.
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| | | 85 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 16:06
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And what is your explanation for heterosexuals suddenly losing interest in the institution after years of steady rate gains? This should be good.
i've got friends who refuse to get married because their brother/sister/cousin/best friend/etc can't get married, because they're gay.
there are plenty of people who engage in that form of protest.
i'm still trying to figure out what gay marriage has to do with children being born out of wedlock, but i suppose the more people get drunk, the more likely China is going to suffer extreme changes in climate.
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| | | 86 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 17:29
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You guys touched on a lot of conflicting pieces on this issue that I've reflected on. I personally find homosexuality disgusting. I think gays burn in hell and I don't want to be around them. I don't wish them ill, but they just make me want to puke. That being said, from a fellow citizens POV, I've wondered if this isn't the civil rights movement of my era and I'm not seeing the forest from the trees. Part of me wants the queers to succeed because in an era where I've got to take my shoes off at an airport, I'd like to see the gov't get a fork in the eye on something.
Every time I hear of a gay group desecrating a church (google it), the more I cannot tolerate them. I think their approach is f'ed up and that could be leading to my bias. (See Mith, I'm man enough to admit it when I see a bias.)
There's a gay guy at work. It's obvious. He displays stereotypical gay behavior constantly. This guy is the subject of a ton of behind-the-back ridicule. I try and steer clear because I don't look forward to eventual conversations with HR over it. The fact remains that straight guys are uncomfortable around gays and I think it's the same feeeeeeeling women get when they are around salivating men. Our manly response is to ridicule it and form groups to "stay safe". Now, if this guy came out and said "Yeah I'm gay. What's your problem?" I'd respect the heck out of him and quite honestly I think the ridicule I hear would decrease as the fear of the unknown subsides and his openness (without being extravagent) would garner respect.
Perm Dude: Marriage is a private matter and shouldn't be subject to interference by others. Conservative principles suggest the maximization of the privacy, not that government should decide who is and isn't marriagable.
That's one of the angles I've been thinking about. A conservative tenant is less government. The gov't telling us that marriage is between a man and a woman is not the gov't shrinking is it?
Pancho Villa: Tell me why conservatives should be opposed to basic human rights.
I don't think sane people are in favor of executing gays because they are gay. Marriage is not a human right; it is a priviledge. Even for straights. Too many things are being called "rights" nowadays.
Now I'm off to drive to California in what appears to be treacherous winter conditions. Wish me luck.
DWetzel: From a purely civil perspective, the simple question to me is why should two sane, willing people who wish to enter into a legally-recognized civil contract not be able to, when other sane wiling people can (or, at minimum, why should one group of people have huge hurdles placed in their path)?
Because straightness is how the species procreates and survives. If everyone was queer, the species would die out rather quickly eh?
Good luck. The roads have stunk here lately too as a result of snow.
Mith: I have been consistantly met with nothing but hostility at every turn and was even sarcastically dubbed the forum cop by a certain friend of yours for my efforts and I don't ever recall receiving even a shred support from you in defense.
Hankie? That's because you're a dick. Acknowledge it and accept it. You're a dick.
Razor: Actually, this is one "gay marriage" proponent that doesn't give a flying crap whether religious institutions want to sanction gay marriages or not. Gay marriage is a civil rights issue for me and nothing more. If no country in the church wants to recognize homosexuality as legitimate, that would be unfortunate, but that's their prerogative.
I agree with this.
Some more things I've thought about are:
What's better for a child? An abusive straight marriage or a loving gay one? I'd have to think the loving gay one.
All things being equal, the loving straight couple is better for the child than a loving gay one because of the fact that straightness is how the species survives.
Why can't gays see their partners in the hospital? Now I don't know how true this actually is, but I've heard this point from the talking heads on TV that gay partners can't visit dying partners in the hospital. Is that true? Sorry, that teeters on barbarism. They ought to be allowed to visit them. The social order isn't going to collapse if Adam visits Steve in the hospital. If that's true, if I were queer I'd rather die at home than try to fight it out alone in a hospital.
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| | | 87 | Perm Dude
ID: 381159198 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 17:34
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Every time I hear of a gay group desecrating a church (google it), the more I cannot tolerate them. I think their approach is f'ed up and that could be leading to my bias.
Absolutely. Whenever I hear of any far left group doing stunts like this on behalf of issues with which I agree it pisses me off.
Great post. I'll need to re-read it to comment further.
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| | | 88 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 18:30
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Hanky?
B was the one lamenting the lack of accessable records, offer it to him. I just reminded him of who's responsible for that.
But since you chose to respond, it's quite telling for you to admit to mocking my worthwhile requests made for the betterment of the forum because of your personal disdain for me.
And I'm the dick. Told so by the man who pasted Guru's forum standards post when someone else used precisely that language just the day before.
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| | | 89 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 19:08
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Mith
Just curious, you sound almost like you feel you got a raw deal here, back in the day. Do you really feel that way? Asking people to always file their post in the perfect thread isn't practical unfortunately. I think the failure of people to keep track of each other's positions has more to do with a lazy desire to pigeonhole opponents into more easily countered strawman positions. Of course some posters are so easily led by the nose by the zeitgeist that predicting their position is automatic.
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| | | 90 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 19:19
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Every time I hear of a gay group desecrating a church (google it), the more I cannot tolerate them.
every time? so, it happens...a lot? like, is it a weekly thing? daily? do they do it just once a month?
Bash Back is the group you're talking about. best as i can tell (google it), they've desecrated a church exactly ONCE, and ya know what, it's bull$hit that they did. they had no business doing such a thing, and it pisses me off, but mostly because it allows people who don't know better to think all queers act this way.
FWIW, they also disrupted the Democratic National Convention and the Annual Human Rights Campaign dinner, two organizations strongly embraced by conservatives (sarcasm).
There's a gay guy at work. It's obvious. He displays stereotypical gay behavior constantly. This guy is the subject of a ton of behind-the-back ridicule. I try and steer clear because I don't look forward to eventual conversations with HR over it. The fact remains that straight guys are uncomfortable around gays and I think it's the same feeeeeeeling women get when they are around salivating men.
no, the fact does not remain that straight guys are uncomfortable around gays. YOU are uncomfortable about gays. some of your co-workers are uncomfortable about gays.
i can tell you i'm perfectly comfortable around gays. from bears to twinks to queers who fit the "stereotype", i'm 100 percent comfortable. heck, i've shared a bed with a gay friend, knowing full well he's not going to make any move on me. trust me, your gay co-worker mostly is not the least bit interested in you, and he knows you talk about him behind his back, and HE thinks it's hysterical that you do.
Why can't gays see their partners in the hospital? Now I don't know how true this actually is, but I've heard this point from the talking heads on TV that gay partners can't visit dying partners in the hospital. Is that true? Sorry, that teeters on barbarism. They ought to be allowed to visit them.
Adam and Steve have been a couple for ten years. Steve is dying of cancer. Steve's family refused to accept his homosexuality, because they find homosexuality disgusting (and) think gays burn in hell.
and because Adam has no legal say in anything involving Steve, nor is he immediate family from a legal sense, he's not allowed to see his dying lover. that's the way things work, and that's one of the things queers are fighting for in the marriage and equality battle.
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| | | 91 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 19:25
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Mith: And I'm the dick. Told so by the man who pasted Guru's forum standards post when someone else used precisely that language just the day before.
Who said this?
I've presented Guru's abusive messages post in response to Baldwin's ad hominem in the past.
I'll offer the same response that he always did - if you can't thicken up your skin then you don't belong here.
Doth thou needest thine hankie?
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| | | 92 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 20:04
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Other than the calling Mith a dick, I'll mostly echo the end of PermDude's post in 87.
Your response to me and your final paragraph are sort of at odds. In fact your last paragraph gets exactly at what my point was.
I acknowledge the positive effects of procreation in perpetuating the species. ;) But there has also been homosexual behavior for the entire duration of the species existence, and yet it's survived anyway. And the species survived just fine long before the very concept of marriage was ever invented.
As for your last paragraph: it is a misstatement/exaggeration, I think. A "partner" could in fact be in the room with their dying partner, assuming that partner had specifically filled out paperwork allowing such. The same paperwork would be required to let anyone in. (Health privacy regulations mean that ANYONE--except the parent/legal guardian of a minor--sign the HIPAA waiver. Including a spouse.)
A "partner" could also be the one designated to make medical decisions for the dying one (via a living will), as far as I understand. Of course, in the absence of such a living will, the "partner" is SOL, where the spouse would be the one in charge of decision making if their husband/wife didn't have such a living will.
Let's say that Adam buys a house, and then marries Eve. (I'm using this in Illinois; I believe the law is the same in most states.) Adam cannot sell the family residence without Eve's signing off on it as well--if Adam signs the contract to sell the house, without Eve's signature, it's invalid. There is no such set of rights that could be afforded to a Steve in this situation. (I suppose an attorney could draw up specific paperwork to enforce it, but otherwise Steve is SOL.)
What from a civil perspective we consider "marriage" is, in essence that bundle of rights (and there's any number of them, from tax law to property rights and on and on and on).
Separate from that (or what SHOULD in my opinion be separate from that) is what your church recognizes as a marriage. We've always sort of conflated those two in this country. Governments as a general rule recognize church-performed marriages (just go get a marriage certificate). What if a religion performs a gay marriage though? How can the government say "well, marriages from that religion are okay, but marriages from other religions we won't recognize?"
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| | | 93 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Fri, Dec 19, 2008, 20:49
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I think the failure of people to keep track of each other's positions has more to do with a lazy desire to pigeonhole opponents into more easily countered strawman positions.
This is true, but for a time it was easy to refer back to previously espoused positions to confirm them.
Asking people to always file their post in the perfect thread isn't practical unfortunately.
I think respectfully reminding the authors of off-topic posts that there are more apropriate threads for their comments isn't something that warrants ad hominem. But it became clear enough that the new blood in the forum came with increasing disregard for the forum itself. I used to value this forum enough to feel it was worth efforts to see it preserved. But after several years of neglect, that cause is long lost.
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| | | 94 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 10:17
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It was lost when liberals here decided that preserving the trolls was more important than intelligent debate. Had the Mith's and Bili's put the trolls in their place replacements could have been found for Toral and Madman for example. As it is every intelligent poster who doesn't wear liberal pom poms will get trampled by the swine. If you like watching intelligent people dragged thru the mud till they leave disgusted, just keep treating Tree and Sarge's feelings like fragile and valuable vessels.
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| | | 95 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 10:26
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Another way of putting it: If you want to cultivate a 'Firing Line' level debate don't invite Rosie O'Donnell and Jerry Springer.
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| | | 97 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 11:17
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More historical revision. Who are these liberal trolls? Are you talking about Tree? Madman and Toral coexisted for many years with Tree. And the notion that I refused to put tree in his place is so easily refuted with many multiple examples that you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking you might get away with that. At least you admit that Jag and Boxman (both every bit as much a troll as anyone who has ever posted here) are hardly comparable repacements for those two. But where were you whenever their conduct here descended into their most abject lows? You would only defend them, even as I put Tree in his place. The only rightist who ever stepped up to Boxman was Toral, who as usual overdid it and had to apologize for his tone - but never took back his comments.
You're as responsible for the downfall of this forum as anyone, in fact you're one of the primary culprits. Go ahead, challenge that. I could easily present a dozen examples of where I smacked tree when he was out of line - three quarters of them specifically in defense of you and your faith. I can show threads where terrible posts by imbeciles like "the left wingers" were pounced on by half the liberals in the forum. Where were you when I was chided for nothing more than a request to keep a discussion on topic when it probably would have taken but a single sentence of support to garner that much more respect for the forum from those two forum cancers.
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| | | 98 | Perm Dude
ID: 811502010 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 11:53
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I'm surprised Baldwin hasn't blamed gay marriage for the downfall of the institution of the RotoGuru Political Forum. Do we think it is a coincidence that gays started getting married about the same time faith in this forum started falling?
And *gasp* some members were posting elsewhere like the liberals that they are--spreading their word seed around without a care in the world.
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| | | 99 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 13:13
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jeez Baldwin. maybe it's not that you refuse to listen to other viewpoints, it's that you can't actually see them - otherwise, you wouldn't be so blind to people being "put in their place."
as has been accounted for numerous times, MITH called me out repeatedly. SZ has certainly called me out as well.
one of my problems is that i repeatedly take your bait. i'm not real good at shying away from that, but, back to the point, to say people on the left haven't called out fellow lefties on this board is more of the same revisionist history (or Land of Make Believe, if you prefer) you're very found of in nearly everything you say.
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| | | 100 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:06
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The problem Tree, is that you needed a pooper scooper 97% of the time and only got serviced .001% of the time.
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| | | 101 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:12
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And I challenge Mith and PD to find any conservative who remotely sunk to the level of wishing I was jailed and sodomized, and wishing to see my head chopped off as Tree has done.
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| | | 102 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:31
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There's a difference between wishing those things upon you, and suggesting what you might metaphorically deserve.
And of course right in this thread, we have troll Boxman stating explicitly that any of his fellow human beings who happen to be homosexuals make him physically ill and deserve eternal damnation. For the Christian, pretty sure "burning in hell" trumps imprisonment, sodomizing and decapitation - and there's no reason to think that Boxman expressed this in anything but the most literal, dead-serious of terms.
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| | | 103 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:32
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I also can't help but wonder if "lipstick lesbian" types also make him want to puke.
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| | | 104 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:37
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I can't help but wonder if 'lipstick lesbians' aren't what has sold liberals on homosexuality.
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| | | 105 | Perm Dude
ID: 811502010 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:37
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I just don't think they know you well enough to have an opinion, Baldwin.
:)
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| | | 106 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:39
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#104 - has a touch more to do with that litle all men created equal thing.
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| | | 107 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:41
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#104 is also a classic example of old baldy averting a response that he knows shows he's wrong.
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| | | 108 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 15:46
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#104 is probably right.
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| | | 109 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 16:21
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For the Christian, pretty sure "burning in hell" trumps imprisonment, sodomizing and decapitation - and there's no reason to think that Boxman expressed this in anything but the most literal, dead-serious of terms.
Boldwin was referring to specific people on this board.
I referred to a general class of citizenry.
There aren't any gays here Mith unless of course you have something you want to get off your chest.
But hey, if you think gays go to Heaven I'd love to read that argument.
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| | | 110 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 16:27
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Don't think there aren't false christians busily spinning that yarn, Boxman. It's the lead story in Newsweek this week I think.
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| | | 111 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 16:55
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There aren't any gays here
How in the world you claim to know that is beyond me. But even if could know that no gay person would ever read your post, I fail to see why one person's metaphorical suggestion regarding what fate B might deserve is any more significant than your opinion on what an entire "class of citizenry" literally deserves.
Further, where in the Bible, exactly, does it say that homosexuals face damnation? I'm aware of numerous passages that are interpreted reasonably enough that God frowns on homosexuality, but God frowns on all kinds of things. Do pickpockets face eternal damnation? How about the guy who occassionally pisses off his father? The guy who secretly wishes he could have a romp with his neighbor's wife? All damned? God wants you to turn the other cheek - behavior which you have shown yourselfd to be entirely uncapable of. Does that mean you're eternally damned as well?
Lets see if you can answer without Baldwin's help.
And you never answered the question about lesbians who happen to be really hot - do they make you want to puke?
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| | | 112 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 16:58
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Lets see if you can answer without Baldwin's help - mith
Lol!...because you know it's there in unmistakable black and white.
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| | | 113 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 17:05
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The reason I ask is to guage just how warped his interpretation of Christianity is. I already have a pretty good idea of how you'd respond. But I wanna get it from the guy who calls himself a Christian as he explicitly rejects the New Covenant.
And of course your refusal to chalenge him even in that regard is yet one more example of your priority of preserving your alliances at Rotoguru over principles you claim to hold so dear - even Christianity itself. You've been known to debate PD's Biblical interpretations for days on end with no wiggle room or willing regard to politely agree to disagree but you won't dare touch even a shred of the religious nincompoopery that comes from your sacred ally Boxman's keyboard.
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| | | 114 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 17:15
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In what sense is he rejecting the new covenant? He could be more about hating the sin, loving the sinner, but God does not change so much as the turning of a shadow and his judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah stands.
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| | | 115 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 17:20
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His explanation is something to the effect of when the words of The Son are at odds with the words of The Father (such as certain excerpts from the Sermon on the Mount) he will defer to The Father over The Son.
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| | | 116 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 17:23
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They are never at odds, so that's a non-issue if ever.
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| | | 117 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 17:35
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Gays disgust me and they go to hell. How can I be any more clear? You see different segments of the gay community. I see one.
Gen 19:4 Lev 18:22 Jude 1:7
They aren't all in the OT. Guess which one isn't Mith. You're the expert. Tell us.
Now go ahead and please enlighten us with your proof that gays go to Heaven. I took the courtesy of answering your question despite you dodging mine.
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| | | 118 | Perm Dude
ID: 811502010 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 17:49
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Is this why the State should ban gay marriage? Because "they go to hell"?
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| | | 119 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 17:55
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No, because the word marriage goes to hell if they should so twist it.
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| | | 120 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 18:25
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I can't help but wonder if 'lipstick lesbians' aren't what has sold liberals on homosexuality.
nah. i find them boring. it's so fake. now guy-on-guy-on-guy? that $hit is HOT!
Gays disgust me and they go to hell.
funny. if someone said the same thing about Christians - who commit a lot more heinous crimes than gays do - you'd be all up in arms.
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| | | 121 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 18:29
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Tree's sole purpose in life seems to be to drive healthy people away from this forum.
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| | | 122 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 18:32
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He is the one into sodomy. This conversation probably vexes him immensely.
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| | | 123 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 18:34
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I think he got excited. Ewww
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| | | 124 | dwetzel on BB
ID: 559392915 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 19:03
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Way to elevate the level of discourse.
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| | | 125 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 19:17
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Baldwin - you're the one who brought up a specific kind of homosexuality.
just because you like the idea of Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter making out with each other, but are repulsed by the idea of two men making out, doesn't make it any less viable, or real, or "healthy".
it's still sex.
Boxman - at risk of being personal, are you saying you don't enjoy oral sex, because, my friend, that's sodomy. i'll go on record as saying the majority of people in this form enjoy sodomy.
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| | | 126 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sat, Dec 20, 2008, 19:34
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That was Mith who raised a specific.
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| | | 127 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 10:54
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Boxman
I don't know where you came up with the first passage. Gen 19 is the story of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah but verse 4 only describes the Sodomites surrounding Lot's house. It neither depicts homosexuality nor any eternal fate which homosexuals face.
And while the Leviticus passage you cite does condemn homosexuality, it also makes no mention of any eternal fate for those who practice it.
Admittedly, I had forgotten about that verse in Jude and that might be you strongest argument. But all the same it's not a given that 'strange flesh' referes to what you assume. I suggest you read Gen 19 again.
But the point is that according to the Bible all kinds of things supposedly earn you eternal damnation. See First Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galations 5:19-22.
Matthew 19:22-23 explains that the rich have little or no chance at heaven. That would preclude almost every living soul in the modern first world.
And according to Mark 3:29, blaspeming against the Holy Spirit is a sin that can never be forgiven. Do you accept that on it's face - that a single word of blasphemy is unforgivable?
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| | | 128 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 12:24
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Look at Gen 19:5 as well.
So are you going to drop the bomb on us that gays go to Heaven? Or are you dodging again? Got any Scripture that defends homosexuality?
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| | | 129 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 14:37
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That does not mean a single word, Mith. It involves a conscious hatred of good where repentence just isn't going to happen. By definition almost, it can't happen. God is the one who detirmines if a person is past all possibility of repentence, since he can read hearts, not some person counting and labelling words as blasphemy.
Re your other points, the bible is more than adequately emphatic that 'men who lie with men', a chaste way of saying 'men who have sex with men', will not inherit God's Kingdom. It's an open and shut case. He in some sense exists outside time, since he himself created the universe in which time is one of the dimensions. This explains the statement that he does not change so much as the turning of a shadow. His principles are eternal. He does not 'learn from mistakes' because he does not make mistakes. He forsees enuff of the future that he does not need to learn from future developments. He's seen the end from the beginning. He knows in general how the universe works out. His position opposing unnatural sexual relations will never change. His sense of right and wrong does not waver.
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| | | 130 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 15:05
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Yep. And if gays were repentent about their sin and accepted Christ as their Savior they would cease to be gay and would be on the path to salvation and thus the statement "gays go to hell" would probably not apply to them.
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| | | 131 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 15:15
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1Cor 6: 9-11 describes just that change, as well as reiterating God's unchanging opinion on the matter.
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| | | 132 | Perm Dude
ID: 711382110 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 15:21
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Ugh. When Biblical literalism clashes with science we're all losers.
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| | | 133 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 17:10
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A fascinating discussion, which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of why our GOVERNMENT should or should not ban gay marriage.
That's right. NOTHING.
It of course has everything to do with why your particular religion would or would not ban it. And I'm not going to tell you what you should or should not believe. You, personally, can believe whatever you want.
But your particular narrow religious interpretation of what the Bible has to say about it means about as much in the debate of what our GOVERNMENT should do about it as what the Koran says about it, or the Wiccans, or Rastafarianism, or the Church of the Fonz.
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| | | 134 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 20:24
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Government doesn't need to consult particular religions. It needs to stay out of the religion business and stop favoring the relgious interpretations of secular humanism.
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| | | 135 | Perm Dude
ID: 711382110 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 21:19
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And instead favor yours, right?
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| | | 136 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 21:33
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That's the typical stance, and the one I believe Baldwin espouses. The truth is none of this would be an issue if the government reallt did get out of the religion business but to really mean that means for them to get out of the business of sanctioning marriages all together. Marriage is a religious institution.
Let the legal side of the contract be called civil unions and if people involved in such a union want to sanction it with one religious organization or another, so be it. Really it's the only way that meshes with the 1st Amendment.
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| | | 137 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 21:36
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Now see, was that so difficult? Mith and Baldwin in perfect agreement. Common sense rules for a fleeting moment.
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| | | 138 | dwetzel on BB
ID: 559392915 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 21:48
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Precisely my point.
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| | | 139 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 21:55
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Well, 135 was sort of. Pesky crossposts.
I actually agree with Mith and Boldwin, though--at least if they are saying what I think they're saying.
If government wants to sanction civil union (or pick some other term if you want) between any two consenting, sane adults (hetero, homo, or something else that hasn't been invented yet), and call it that so there's no confusion between it and religious marriages, I don't have a problem with that.
And if the Church of the Fonz doesn't want to perform religious marriages between some subset of those groups, that's fine with me.
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| | | 140 | Perm Dude
ID: 711382110 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 22:04
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But they do sanction civil unions. They just call them "marriages." I'm unwilling to cede to the far right the term "marriage" so they can try to define out of it people they don't like.
Besides which: That's not the point Baldwin and his ilk are really making, since the government isn't forcing their churches to recognize them as marriages or to force their churches to perform additional religious services surrounding them. Even if the government were to change the name of the action to recognizing "civil unions" rather than "marriages," the fact that there are tax and other benefits arising from such actions is what bothers the Christianists. They want there to be no secular benefits arising from a secular government recognizing a secular union, because their religion says that those people are engaging in sinful behavior.
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| | | 141 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 22:19
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Mith: What happened to you after #127? You seem all too eager to want to change the subject in your #136.
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| | | 142 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Sun, Dec 21, 2008, 22:36
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#133 is right that the thread has drifted off topic and this is a debate that is not by any means new to this forum.
But since you insist:
Gen 19:4-5:
19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Still no reference to damnation.
Go back and read what I wrote:
where in the Bible, exactly, does it say that homosexuals face damnation? I'm aware of numerous passages that are interpreted reasonably enough that God frowns on homosexuality
Like I also said, your strongest argument is the Jude reference but that verse is still ambiguous at best. That's why I suggested you go back and read Gen 19 again.
In the first place, "know" or "know them" is far more ambiguous than most Evangelicals care to acknowledge. There are only a relative handful of examples of uses that refer to sexual behavior that way.
Further, even if you do insist on the sexual interpretation and that the "strange flesh" refers specifically to "the men which came in to thee this night", 9:1 explicitly states that they were not men. They were angels.
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| | | 143 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 00:07
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That is sooo lame. The people of Sodom did not know they were angels. There isn't anything ambigious about the situation or what Sodom was being judged for. It was ancient sin city of a homosexual bent.
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| | | 144 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 00:11
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That's a fashionable interpretation of the last few hundred years.
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| | | 145 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 00:22
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That's as laughable as the ludicrous meme they currently try and sell that previous to the last few centuries mankind didn't know about homosexuality.
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| | | 146 | Perm Dude
ID: 711382110 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 00:41
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So, you're saying that Biblical scholarship has undergone no changes at all on the topic? Perhaps you are of the belief that your own faith, despite its newness on the Christian scene, has had no dogmatic changes of note?
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| | | 147 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 01:37
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Government doesn't need to consult particular religions. It needs to stay out of the religion business and stop favoring the relgious interpretations of secular humanism.
so, you're ok with: 1. no prayer in schools. 2. In God We Trust removed from anything printed from our government. 3. no posting of the 10 Commandments in court rooms. 4. removing the phrase "one Nation under God" from the Pledge of Allegience (never mind the fact it wasn't even added to the pledge until 60+ years after it was originally written) 5. no tax exempt status for churches, synagogues, mosques, and so on? 6. etc etc
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| | | 149 | weykool Leader
ID: 41750315 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 03:40
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the fact that there are tax and other benefits arising from such actions is what bothers the Christianists. They want there to be no secular benefits arising from a secular government recognizing a secular union, because their religion says that those people are engaging in sinful behavior.
Tax benefits to being married? Have you not heard the term "marriage penalty"? If both people work in most cases if you file a joint return you will pay more taxes than if you were able to file seperate single returns. Now if only one spouse works there is a tax savings to being able to file a joint return. Of course with the high cost of living in California it is very difficult to afford to live on one income. I find the "we are being denied rights" to be a completely bogus argument. What rights are being denied? The right to pay higher taxes?
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| | | 150 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 06:55
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Tree
1) I don't care in the abstract on principle, but judging from the trajectory of society that society has taken since, you should for pragmatic reasons if you don't want to live in a Mad Max Thunderdome world. The prayers they would use would be so generic as to please no god whatsoever but the effects on society would be beneficial.
2) I believe this is a true statement, America being an unusually religious people compared to other nations. Hard to see how this favors or establishes a religion. Certainly less so than government specifically favoring secular humanism in most areas.
3) While this one is so broad as to encompass all three of the Abrahamic branches, I'll concede this point on principle. I think I might fight you on displaying the 'Golden Rule' however. It's hard to see who has a legitimate beef with that.
4) I couldn't have less standing to comment. Neither this country or it's people genuinely follow the lead of God almighty, nor do they enjoy his protection generally speaking. Benefits aplenty if it were genuinely a true statement.
5) I would take the position that tax-exempting non-profits is a society neccessity.
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| | | 151 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 08:25
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That's as laughable as the ludicrous meme they currently try and sell that previous to the last few centuries mankind didn't know about homosexuality.
I don't know anything about that meme. But I'll note that the traditional Jewish interpretation is that it's an issue regarding hospitality.
This is even supported in Matthew 10:14-15.
I have no idea how you claim to know that the men of Sodom didn't know that Lot's visitors were angels.
Personally I have trouble with the notion of searching for the most literal intepretation from any text in which the God-sanctioned hero of the story offers up his daughters to the mob so that they may be gang raped. But that's just me.
Anyway, Blue Letter Bible counts over 250 uses of "to know" and over 700 uses of "know". How many of them refer to sex? A dozen? Less?
There's no question that Sodom and Gomorrha were regarded as cities of sexual deviance but I don't think you'll be able to convincingly support the notion that it was all about homosexuality, specifically.
And considering etymology as an indicator, Tree makes a fair (if crass) point 125, as well.
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| | | 152 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 09:14
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PD #140 I'm unwilling to cede to the far right the term "marriage" so they can try to define out of it people they don't like.
I hardly think that's what I suggested, if you were responding to me. Leaving it to the religious organizations to perform and sanction marriages and to decide for themselves exactly what sorts of things qualify under that term appeases the right's definition of the term in only one regard - as an exclusively religious institution. Same sex couples will get married in religious institutions that will do so and other religious institutions are free to acknowledge those people as married or not. And legally, it doesn't make a bit of difference, since.
Taking the legal contract out of the of the religious rite allows more freedom to the religious institutions and their faithful to live how they choose and taking the religious rite out of government's hands removes the current and ridiculous legal exclusivity of the word.
I have to admit that I was very surprised to see Baldwin so quickly agree to removing government's power to define marriage as a heterosexual-exclusive union, given his position that the "preservation of marriage" is crucial to the upholding of society. I would have sworn that he was not so agreeable when I previously expressed that opinion in this forum. But I don't have time to fdig up that discussion. If/when B has the time, I'd be interested in a more in-depth explanation of his priorities there.
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| | | 153 | Perm Dude
ID: 571148229 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 11:17
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Hardly?
MITH: Let the legal side of the contract be called civil unions ...
Seems clear to me. You want the government to stop calling what they do "marriages" and instead call them "civil unions."
Leaving it to the religious organizations to perform and sanction marriages and to decide for themselves exactly what sorts of things qualify under that term...
They already do. No one is forcing religious institutions to perform marriages that they do not want to perform. The problem is that the word "marriage" is used in both cases (civil and religious). Your suggestion is that the state call their secular service "civil union" (in other words, ceding the word "marriage" to religious organizations).
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| | | 154 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 17:39
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PD
I have trouble believing your point of view is to equate "religious institutions" with "the far right", but that's the case you seem to be making.
Your suggestion is that the state call their secular service "civil union" (in other words, ceding the word "marriage" to religious organizations).
This is corect but I should be more specific. The local untarian church is as much a religious institution as any mainstream organization. And for the purposes of this discussion, so is the church of the Starship Enterprise or the Ku Klux Klan or the weekly masochistic ritual my friends and I share when we gather on Sundays to watch the Jets.
Taking the legality out of the religious union is a matter of removing the state from the church, which is a no-brainer to me. I fail to see why so many are so hung up on the state's authority to validate that particular religious rite. It's like tying in the baptism or bris rituals with the issuing of a birth cirtificate, or driver learners' permits with bar mitzvahs and confirmations.
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| | | 155 | Perm Dude
ID: 3511322217 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 18:32
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I specified "Christianists" to make it clearer. Specifically, I am referring to far right religious institutions.
I fail to see why...
You are, I believe, clearly able to see the tax and other secular benefits that arise from a state-recognized marriage, yes? Then what you fail to see is the reasoning behind such benefits, which is a separate question from that arising from Prop 8, which is about whether gay couples should be specifically excluded from such secular benefits.
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| | | 156 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 18:34
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what you fail to see is the reasoning behind such benefits
Well I admit that I'm not sure what you're getting at so I'd appreciate it if you elaborate.
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| | | 157 | Perm Dude
ID: 3511322217 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 18:39
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No gay couple is requiring their unions to be done by any religious organization. But you insist that the point is about some kind of interference in a religious act. It isn't. Never was.
The state isn't "validating" any religious act.
Marriage is a civil action that many couples make a dual (secular and religious) act. And yet you seemingly want to remove the secular from this dual action. Maybe you just don't see the nature of what it is.
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| | | 158 | Mith
ID: 148402816 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 18:53
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The state isn't "validating" any religious act.
As far as this agnostic is concerned marriage is more of a religious concept than a civil one.
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| | | 159 | Perm Dude
ID: 2611202218 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 21:32
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It is both. If you were to get married in a church it would not be recognized by the state unless you also filed a marriage certificate.
As far as this agnostic is concerned marriage is more of a religious concept than a civil one.
That's why you are willing to cede "marriage" completely into the religious realm. But others of us are not. As Prop 8 demonstrates, Christianists are quite willing to try to tear down secular marriages in order to achieve religious aims.
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| | | 161 | Perm Dude
ID: 2611202218 Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 23:24
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That's a bit unfair, tree. I'm digusted by a lot of stuff, but it doesn't mean I'm going to physically harm people who do those things, or cheer on people who do.
Tolerance isn't not being disgusted by something, or holding your tongue when you are. It is about extending basic human decencies despite your disgust.
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| | | 162 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 00:07
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right. and by saying someone disgusts you and is going to hell, you're not extending basic human decencies to them.
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| | | 163 | Perm Dude
ID: 2611202218 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 00:30
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Is he participating or cheering on beatings? No. He's giving a theological opinion.
Toleration doesn't mean shutting up. Or not saying something that might disturb someone else (particularly a target of his disgust). Heck, toleration doesn't even mean "happy with."
"I'll tolerate it" is about the best sense one can get, I think.
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| | | 164 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 00:30
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I have to admit that I was very surprised to see Baldwin so quickly agree to removing government's power to define marriage as a heterosexual-exclusive union, given his position that the "preservation of marriage" is crucial to the upholding of society. I would have sworn that he was not so agreeable when I previously expressed that opinion in this forum. But I don't have time to fdig up that discussion. If/when B has the time, I'd be interested in a more in-depth explanation of his priorities there.
The state should simply keep their hands off marriage completely. They do not in my mind have the power to define marriage since it is a religious institution. I am deeply offended by the words commonly used in the ceremony, "By the power invested in me by the state, I now pronounce you...'.
The problem comes into the picture because there are legal issues tied up with marriage. If the state were to handle the legal issues with marriage and civil unions in exactly the same way that would be in a fair [and ungodly] world, probably the best compromise that would please the most people.
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| | | 165 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 06:32
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It's not worth responding to PD.
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| | | 166 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 08:08
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Is he participating or cheering on beatings? No. He's giving a theological opinion.
so, if his "theological opinion" was that "Muslims disgust me. They go to hell," this would be acceptable to you?
it's not acceptable to me, because there are some people in the population who see a lack of tolerance by others as an acceptance of their position towards violence against those *they* find disgusting.
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| | | 167 | Perm Dude
ID: 25119238 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 09:09
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Well, many Christians do believe that Muslims will go to hell. I don't think there is any disgust in that (that is, I don't know anyone disgusted by the fact of someone being a Muslim), but that's the truth.
I think you are seeing two different reactions. Boxman doesn't believe that gays will go to hell because they disgust him. They will go go hell because they violate Scripture.
He's right, though: not really worth chasing. Not too much, anyway.
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| | | 168 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 09:15
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They do not in my mind have the power to define marriage since it is a religious institution.
Is not.
And once again, it just says to me that religion is not a good thing.
There is no god. Another fairy tale.
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| | | 169 | Baldwin
ID: 221172017 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 15:42
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So says the fool.
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| | | 170 | walk
ID: 181472714 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 17:15
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Who the fool? YOU the fool.
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| | | 171 | Perm Dude
ID: 4211462314 Tue, Dec 23, 2008, 17:34
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"I pity the fool..."
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| | | 172 | walk
ID: 181472714 Wed, Dec 24, 2008, 10:07
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Mr. T! Happy Holidays, PD!
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| | | 173 | PV in SoCal
ID: 41132217 Wed, Dec 24, 2008, 13:23
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It's amazing to me that gay marriage is such a hot topic in this state, given the multitude of near-catastrophic problems the state faces.
Housing, immigration, energy, water, traffic, unemployment, homeless, incredibly high taxes on those who are productive - all are contributing to the state going broke, while the state employee unions and legislators who represent a third world mentality won't even allow Gov. Arnold to take steps to avoid further degradation of a failing economy.
For the first time in the history of the state of California, 2008 showed an actual reduction in population, as those with money migrate to Nevada, Arizona, Utah and Colorado.
Gay marriage is the least of California's problems.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all political gurupies. Looks like I may have to drive back to Utah trying to dodge more severe winter weather this weekend.
Again, wish me luck.
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| | | 174 | jedman in Utah
ID: 1911422610 Fri, Dec 26, 2008, 11:52
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I am in Utah with some big snowstorms. We California boys aren't used to driving in the snow. I'm ok with being stuck in the house with my grandchildren and children, though. PV is so correct. California has huge financial troubles and like the federal situation, nobody wants to face reality and be the one to sacrifice. I would love for somebody in both the federal and state governments to go to each department, ask how many people work there and then tell them to do it with half. I really believe in most cases it could be done, people just might have to 'gulp' work harder.
Merry Christmas all.
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| | | 175 | weykool Leader
ID: 41750315 Fri, Dec 26, 2008, 18:04
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I agree PV. For many years the California politicians have been passing anti business legislation that has been digging the hole deeper and deeper. They are now talking about raising sales taxes another 1% to 9.25% in the highest counties. They are also talking about raising the income tax from just under 10% to 15%. California already has one of the highest state income taxes in the nation. More and more of the rich will simply buy a home in Nevada and maintain a "vacation" home in California. Instead of getting the 15% they think they will get they will end up losing the 10% they were getting before.
The situation in California could get bad enough that they could end up dragging the rest of the nation in that Great Depression we were all hoping to avoid.
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| | | 177 | Boldwin
ID: 34044918 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 07:41
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They've been risking the gravest health threat in the world and that hardly effected their risky behavior. Why would a little ricin slow them down?
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| | | 178 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 09:26
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sick, sick, sick, and just furthers my beliefs about you.
and i hate to break it to you, but homosexuals are far from having a monopoly on risky behavior.
and what of lesbians? what heath threat are they risking? i mean, aside from some anti-queer sicko threatening to poison them...
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| | | 179 | Perm Dude
ID: 53038128 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 09:38
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They risk AIDS by going out to bars? I think your active imagination is filling in many blanks, Baldwin.
I don't hear any call by you to shut down hetero bars.
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| | | 180 | Seattle Zen
ID: 260311211 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 12:47
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I'm sure Baldwin was referring to the "silent killer" - radon. It's released by playing Cher albums :)
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| | | 181 | Baldwin
ID: 410521218 Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 19:54
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The hypnotic tones of Barbara Streisand warping their very being.
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| | | 184 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Tue, Jun 02, 2009, 09:47
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Cheney on gay marriage: 'Freedom for everyone'
Former Vice President Dick Cheney said Monday he supports gays being able to marry but believes states, not the federal government, should make the decision.
"I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone," Cheney said in a speech at the National Press Club. "I think people ought to be free to enter into any kind of union they wish, any kind of arrangement they wish."
Cheney, who has a gay daughter, said marriage has always been a state issue.
"And I think that's the way it ought to be handled today, that is, on a state-by-state basis. Different states will make different decisions. But I don't have any problem with that. I think people ought to get a shot at that," he said.
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| | | 185 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Jun 02, 2009, 09:59
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This is not a surprise. He admitted during the 2004 campaign that he did not agree with the proposed anti-gay-marriage amendment.
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| | | 186 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Tue, Jun 02, 2009, 11:34
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i'm aware. just posting the news.
and, this fun video!
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| | | 187 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 10:08
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i may be the last person on earth to see this, but damn it made me crack up.
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| | | 189 | Frick
ID: 4945458 Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 08:54
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I personally don't have a problem with gay marriage. If States want to declare them illegal based on religious views, they should not be allowed to grant marriage licenses due to the separation of church and state. The should be allowed to grant some other term that is the same as marriage minus the religious conotations.
Our system of government is set up so that the majority rule, but we have the court system to protect the minority from being abused by the majority. I find it interesting that California (one of the most liberal states) does not allow gay marriages, while a typical conservative Midwestern state (Iowa) now allows gay marriages.
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| | | 190 | Mith Dude
ID: 01629107 Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 08:58
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Shouldn't seperation suggest that government shouldn't be in the marriage business in the first place?
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| | | 191 | sarge33rd
ID: 59519178 Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 09:20
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It would indeed Mith. However, what is recognized as a marriage in one state, NEEDS to be recognized as such in every state. THAT, will require a Federal declaration of such. (IOW, a couples legal status; should not vary from state to state to state.)
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| | | 192 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 10:28
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"Shouldn't seperation suggest that government shouldn't be in the marriage business in the first place?"
I say with complete sincerity: Obviously.
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| | | 193 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 10:57
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the problem is that marriage is tied into many non-religious venues, from insurance to tax rates to final wills and so on and so forth.
because of that, civic marriages need to be legal in all states. if your place of worship doesn't want to do gay marriages, fine, but a far as legal rights, all people should be equal.
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| | | 194 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 11:19
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all good points and it why people need to realize that marriage is merely a legal contract. Religion should have no concern in the matter.
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| | | 195 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 11:23
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It really just comes down to the the actual word. I am happy to give the word to the religious ceremony, as long as it's removed from the law books and replaced with the commitment to a stable family unit I think we should be promoting through laws and benefits, regardless of the gender.
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| | | 196 | Frick
ID: 4945458 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 09:35
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What about the phrase civil union?
I started to post yesterday, but wanted to think on this some more. Marriage and the laws surrounding it are very ingrained in our society. It would not be that difficult to completely remove them and to turn marriage for legal purposes into a legal contract signed by both parties.
But, removing the religious connotations of marriage from the certificate that the states assign needs to happen.
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| | | 197 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 09:39
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That has been my position from day one. Gays don't want that deal however. They want government to force the religious to assign the dignity of their approval on the gay lifestyle.
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| | | 198 | sarge33rd
ID: 27551188 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 09:51
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No, what the gay community wants; is the same as the hetero community has. They dont want a different term, they dont want a label; to which you can attach your stigma/bias etc. If it's to be called a marriage for heteros, then they want ti called a marriage for them also. If you want to call it a civil union for them, then they want it called a civil union for you too.
For one with such a limited ability lately to logically think through and post your commentary; I find it surprising that even you would claim to know what a group you are steadfastly opposed to even existing; wants.
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| | | 202 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 10:49
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Gays don't want that deal however. They want government to force the religious to assign the dignity of their approval on the gay lifestyle.
Please. Here's a Washington Blade column in support of just that idea.
And here's an LA Times column by the CEO of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center Lorri L. Jean called, "Why not just have civil unions for everyone?"
If you actually bother to look around for information rather than trust the usual propaganda you blindly trust (laugh - as if) what you'll find is an ongoing debate in the gay community about whether this is a good idea. From my reading on it, most of the pro-gay-rights opposition to 'civil unions for all' is pragmatic, not principled. They fear, as Jake Goad explains that they'd simply never be able to sell the idea of asking the government to stop performing and sanctioning religious marriages for everyone because it is too easily twisted into an anti-tradition, anti-family all-out assault on Christian and conservative values.
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| | | 203 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:07
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"Why not just have civil unions for everyone?"
sounds good to me the law sees it as a civil union and religion can see it as what ever they want to call it. you can always find a new religion but you wont have to find a new country.
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| | | 204 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:12
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Well put, Boikin. In my experience, most reasonable people realize the simple wisdom inherent in the civil unions for all solution.
Despite Boldwin's contention that the obstacle to that solution are the gay rights activists, the real problem is with people who reject the principle of church/state seperation.
And which sector of American politics most typically rejects seperation?
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| | | 205 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:29
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The NEA and secular humanists.
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| | | 206 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:40
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Humanists do not reject Separation, you dolt. In fact The Humanist Manifesto's ninth principle reads:The separation of church and state and the separation of ideology and state are imperatives. The state should encourage maximum freedom for different moral, political, religious, and social values in society. It should not favor any particular religious bodies through the use of public monies, nor espouse a single ideology and function thereby as an instrument of propaganda or oppression, particularly against dissenters. I don't know what the National Endowment for the Arts (?) or the National Education Association (??) might think of Separation, but whatever organization you refer to, and whatever they think of Separation, you lost your ability to think critically a long time ago.
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| | | 207 | Tree
ID: 41371322 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:53
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They want government to force the religious to assign the dignity of their approval on the gay lifestyle.
no. that's another lie.
they want the same LEGAL benefits of straight couples. it's as simple as that.
i know you think everyone is assaulting religion, but i'd wager most of the people you think are doing so are more of the "live and let live" persuasion, but just dont want it forced on them.
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| | | 208 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:55
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Secular humanism is the official government sponsored monopoly religion of state run schools. They most certainly do not wish to be separated from their sponsor.
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| | | 209 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 11:57
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LOL!
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| | | 210 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:00
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That's interesting research MITH, but you will notice that that solution never gets implimented. Where is the bill moving successfully thru a legislature with the support of the major gay organizations, that supports the civil union solution instead of insisting on marriage. It never happens.
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| | | 211 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:03
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So you want to know which major gay organizations support codifying same-sex marriages as not actually "marriages?"
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| | | 212 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:07
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This is too funny. Maybe I'll pick that battle on another day.
Back to the subject of just who rejects the solution of simply removing government from the marriage business, I'll cite the "Traditional Marriage" section of WorldNetDaily's "Declaration of the Principles of Liberty":Traditional Marriage
“Marriage, while from its very nature a sacred obligation, is nevertheless, in most civilized nations, a civil contract, and usually regulated by law. Upon it society may be said to be built, and out of its fruits spring social relations and social obligations and duties, with which government is necessarily required to deal. In fact, according as … marriages are allowed, do we find the principles on which the government of the people, to a greater or less extent, rests.” 9
We embrace the sacred union of one man and one woman as the sole form of legitimate marriage. We reject any attempt to create other legitimate unions, whether called same-sex marriage, civil unions, or polygamy.
We embrace the importance of honoring the sacred bonds of marriage as a true commitment. We reject the perversion of the sexual relationship whether in the form of adultery, homosexuality, prostitution, or through pornography and related industries.
We embrace marriage as the best foundation for a healthy family and the well-being and development of children.
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| | | 213 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:13
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Funny stuff, MITH. It is now "liberty" to prevent two other people from marrying. Nice. Comes from not realizing that this is a secular country, full of religious moderates willing to live with others rather than a religious country, intent upon keeping its religious nature pure and clear.
Most of the founding fathers would be horrified at how their words, tools, and intentions have been twisted to support the kinds of things they spent their lives fighting. And no, I'm not saying that the Founding Fathers were pro-same sex anything. What they were, was against tyrannical government intruding into the affairs of people on religious grounds.
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| | | 214 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:15
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you will notice that that solution never gets implimented.
That's because the religious right, which remains a powerful politica force in America largely rejects (a) the notion of separating religion from the state and (b) anything resembling government sanction of same-sex unions, be it secular or religious (c) the notion that homosexuals have any right to the legal affordations given to heteros who marry.
Don't play dumb. The notion of taking marriage out of government's hands would be harshly rejected by the religious right as the most hostile affront the gay community has unleashed upon raditional values to date.
Would you speak up against your own kind in defense of that proposal?
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| | | 215 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:28
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I will say that anyone including WND who thinks they have any shot at a better deal is not being pragmatic. It's the only way the word marriage won't be perverted and the culture seriously degraded. I will say that I don't think there is any stopping the gay marriage train until it comes to screeching permanent end at the conclusion of armageddon. I will also make the proviso that I am entirely against any solution that ends up allowing gays to adopt.
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| | | 216 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:35
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I am entirely against any solution that ends up allowing gays to adopt.
you should ask a foster child which they would rather have two mothers or two fathers or no parents at all.
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| | | 217 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:41
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I completely agree, boikin. And I've seen no studies that indicate that same-sex parents are any less-qualified than hetero couples, even when looking at just adoptive parents.
Baldwin is more concerned about the word marriage than he is about actual marriages.
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| | | 218 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:44
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I will credit him with taking a perspective that is perhaps 50% more logical than what I believe is typical of the religious right.
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| | | 219 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 12:44
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you should ask a foster child... When foster kids get to tell the government they don't want to be taken from their parents in the first place, and the government accepts that as the last word...then I'll look into that.
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| | | 220 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 14:55
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So your stand is that the government should keep these kids, rather than foster them out to gay couples.
Nice.
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| | | 221 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 15:23
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No, my stand is that half these kids didn't need to be taken in the first place and the other half shouldn't be messed up any more than neccessary. IE foster care is preferable to gaycare.
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| | | 222 | sarge33rd
ID: 455391814 Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 15:44
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Speaking for myself;
I'd prefer to be raised by an open-minded gay couple; than a sanctimonious self-righteous right-wingnut.
In the first case: grow to use the intellect. In the second; simply regurgitate the crap you got spoon fed thru the formative years.
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| | | 223 | Seattle Zen
ID: 546282213 Wed, Jul 22, 2009, 18:40
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Yeah, can't have that!
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| | | 225 | Tree, in Florida
ID: 248472317 Fri, Nov 20, 2009, 14:36
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what's a gaywad?
the second segment - featuring a pretty damned intelligent 10-year-old and Pro Wrestler/NY Times Best Selling author Mick Foley - is outstanding.
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| | | 226 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Fri, Dec 11, 2009, 12:33
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via my friend Jenny....
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| | | 227 | Bauxman
ID: 2110171217 Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 09:59
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What is your point? Oh Lord help me, I'm asking TREE that question. I'd be better off giving him a warm cup of tomato soup, a rocking chair and a homemade quilt so he can take his nap and watch the leaves change color in peace and quiet.
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| | | 228 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 12:49
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I actually need to explain the point. it goes THAT far over your head?
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| | | 229 | Bauxman
ID: 2110171217 Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 16:13
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There there gramps. Its OK. Dinner is in the oven and I'll bring it to you on a TV tray in time for Jeopardy.
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| | | 231 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Dec 13, 2009, 11:04
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I'm glad you've turned a new leaf and decided that personal attacks are out of bounds, B... oh, wait.
Should everyone go crying to Guru now?
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| | | 232 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sun, Dec 13, 2009, 11:27
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DWetz - he's a child. i'm not sure too many people here actually believe he's a well-traveled businessman with a wife and children.
anyway, it should be a quieter week.
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| | | 233 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Dec 13, 2009, 16:51
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Agreed.
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| | | 234 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jan 31, 2010, 21:24
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Great piece by Rob Tisinai. The biggest threat to children: Homophobia.
Great blurbs, especially near the end. Well done.
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| | | 235 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 10:42
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The lie in his statistics is that he does not ask how many homosexuals would prefer someone their own age and how many would prefer someone younger than 18 years old. How many of them are willing and even eager to manipulate those too young to really know themselves into diverting from normal development and dead end in arrested development?
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| | | 236 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 11:29
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You don't need to ask--you have actual statistics.
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| | | 237 | Tree, on lunch
ID: 570552512 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 11:45
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The lie in his statistics is that he does not ask how many homosexuals would prefer someone their own age and how many would prefer someone younger than 18 years old.
How many of them are willing and even eager to manipulate those too young to really know themselves into diverting from normal development and dead end in arrested development?
fairly disgusting ascertion, and part in parcel with the old (and false) homosexuality/pedophilia link.
can't look up the stats now, but i'm wonder how many heterosexual men/women prey on those younger than 18.
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| | | 238 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 12:18
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arrested development?
I think the argument could easily be made, that overt homophobia *IS* arrested development.
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| | | 239 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 12:19
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Yeah--I really don't know how to take it when statistics are shown to say a certain thing (in this case, that of actual pedophile cases nearly all of the perps were self-described heterosexuals and attracted to children because of the non-manly nature of children's bodies) and the response is that there is a hole in the argument--we need to find out how many gays are attracted to children (!).
We already know, however, that gays are not any more likely to be attracted to children than heterosexuals.. What is going on is that the disgust and aversion some feel toward gay sex (particularly, male gay sex) gets conflated into a disgust at other sexually-deviant behaviors, including pedophilia.
As Tisinai points out, to willingly blow off actual case history in the hopes of continuing to push the canard of gays = pedophiles is hurting actual children.
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| | | 240 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 12:20
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#238: According to the linked article, development of the particular belief in question (that gays = pedophiles) was arrested back in about 1970.
:)
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| | | 241 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 13:21
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I think we pretty well exhausted this a couple years ago. Facts seem to have little impact on those who's minds are already made up.
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| | | 242 | Tree, on lunch
ID: 570552512 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 13:48
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Meanwhile - the top uniformed officer in the military speaks out abut "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"...
The military's top uniformed officer declared Tuesday that gays should be allowed to serve openly in uniform, arguing that it is "the right thing to do."
Adm. Mike Mullen's statement was the strongest yet from the uniformed military on this volatile issue, although he stressed that he was "speaking for myself and myself only." He told the Senate Armed Services Committee Tuesday he is deeply troubled by a policy that forces people to "lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens."
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| | | 244 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 14:09
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The military is but a reflection of the society as a whole. As social acceptance comes slowly into view, so too will military acceptance.
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| | | 245 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 14:53
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I wonder what promotion Mike Mullen is angling for.
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| | | 246 | Tree, on lunch
ID: 570552512 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 15:50
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I wonder what promotion Mike Mullen is angling for.
there are people on this planet who take action simply because it is the right thing to do.
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| | | 247 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 18:35
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Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! - Isa 5:20
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| | | 248 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 02, 2010, 18:44
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Heal thyself.
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| | | 249 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Wed, Feb 03, 2010, 12:59
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From God's viewpoint? Who is your god then really?
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| | | 250 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Feb 03, 2010, 13:08
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My God doesn't need people to lie for him.
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| | | 251 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Wed, Feb 03, 2010, 13:49
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My god can turn your honor student into a smoking pile of lightning bait.
Or something like that.
I freakin' hate the thumpin'. It impedes actual, you know, discussion.
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| | | 252 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Wed, Feb 03, 2010, 14:01
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When people hold up transgression as shining virtue, people need reminding just which side they are choosing.
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| | | 253 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Wed, Feb 03, 2010, 14:07
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May I suggest that this trend of discussion is unlikely to lead anywhere productive?
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| | | 254 | biliruben
ID: 461142511 Wed, Feb 03, 2010, 15:38
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I was attempting to humorously make the same point (that once you start quoting scripture, it's all down hill in terms of productive discussion), but perhaps I failed.
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| | | 257 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 01:56
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Sen Chambliss: Repealing DADT would cause the armed forces to allow "alcohol use, adultery, fraternization, and body art."
Jeez, and after that maybe a lot of working out with weights and stuff.
The horror! What would our military look like, should that terrible day dawn, in which the military men and women engage in "alcohol use, adultery, fraternization, and body art?" Next thing you know, the phrase "sailor on leave" would no longer be a metaphor.
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| | | 258 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 03:58
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Next war: [fade to battle scene at the front] "No one expects the village people".
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| | | 259 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 07:25
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"No one expects the village people"
because, of course, every homosexual is a caricature from a band who's heyday was more than 30 years ago.
i will admit to being ignorant in regards to the "body art" commment.
didn't realize having a tattoo barred you from military service.
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| | | 262 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Wed, May 12, 2010, 09:27
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love this shirt.
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| | | 266 | Boldwin
ID: 404412616 Thu, May 27, 2010, 05:48
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There are some mindbogglingly gruesome stories about Hitler's private parties that are so bad no one can bring themselves to discus them. Not even me. You will probably go your whole life without ever hearing anything quite as horrible. Gay hardly begins to capture the depravity of it.
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| | | 267 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, May 27, 2010, 10:14
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If one believes that being gay makes one depraved, I suppose. Or gruesome, to any degree.
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| | | 268 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, May 27, 2010, 11:41
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based on how some Christians treat gays, i'm thinking those Christians are the depraved ones.
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| | | 269 | Boldwin
ID: 444582719 Thu, May 27, 2010, 21:00
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No, even you guys, even you guys, would be taking a shower and a stiff drink after learning about Hitler's parties.
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| | | 270 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, May 27, 2010, 21:05
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Sure. That wasn't my point.
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| | | 271 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, May 27, 2010, 21:12
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Probably worth noting that DADT is on its way to its death. And rightfully so.
It is probably best to delay implementation until after the Pentagon finishes its review (which would sidestep many of the GOP objections). But in en election year it would be best, IMO, to get politicians to take an actual stand on this issue right now.
From the article:
They also questioned if the military leaders who would have to make the final decision would be able to resist pressure from the White House to lift the repeal.
I guess they are forgetting that the President is the Commander-in-Chief.
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| | | 272 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, May 27, 2010, 22:01
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No, even you guys, even you guys, would be taking a shower and a stiff drink after learning about Hitler's parties.
i pretty much feel that way any time you feel the need to falsely compare someone to the nazis.
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| | | 273 | Boldwin
ID: 564353010 Sat, Jun 05, 2010, 02:29
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GrindR tells.
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| | | 275 | Boldwin
ID: 24528715 Wed, Jun 09, 2010, 12:25
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'Well at least I'm not gay' works wonders for self-esteem.
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| | | 277 | Boldwin
ID: 26750418 Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 19:56
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PD
Lot's wife only looked back. You are wearing a skirt and pom poms and everything.
Fire and sulfer raining down outta heaven, baby.
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| | | 278 | Boldwin
ID: 26750418 Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 19:57
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Talk about "really destroyed them".
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| | | 279 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 21:00
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I won't be taking Christian lessons from you, thanks the same. The fact that you seem unable to distinguish between secular legal reasoning and Biblical reasoning is really the whole point.
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| | | 280 | Boldwin
ID: 4071153 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 04:26
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That was God making his views known in Soddom and Gomorrah. Ignore him at your peril.
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| | | 281 | Frick
ID: 4773157 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 08:31
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I can't decide if it is vaguely funny or just sad that the religious right generally want a strict interpretation of the Constitution, except for when it comes to the separation between the church and state.
That being said, states should have the ability to choose who they grant marriage licenses to, as long as they fully legally recognize any marriage license from another state.
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| | | 282 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 09:15
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States rights do not supercede individual rights.
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| | | 283 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 09:37
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Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional in US district court
I am not sure where in the constitution it grants the right for marriage of any type to to be state sanctioned.
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| | | 284 | Frick
ID: 4773157 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 10:47
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This gets back to the fundamental argument of what powers does the federal government have? The rights that are explicitly stated, or everything that wasn't explicitly excluded.
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| | | 285 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 10:49
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There is none--the question wasn't whether the state is required to sanction marriages. But the State cannot discriminate in its actions when it does.
Prop 8 required the state to stop marrying same sex couples, and in the future to only extend marriage licenses (and benefits) to opposite-sex couples. This action was found to be discriminatory.
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| | | 286 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 14:37
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| | | 287 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 16:01
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that is brilliant. i've stolen it for facebook.
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| | | 288 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 16:07
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My #285 was directed at boikin's 283.
Regarding frick's #284: The point isn't what powers the federal government has, but what rights people have as citizens of the United States. There are certain rights that we enjoy as federal citizens that the states cannot take away. States are prevented, constitutionally, from engaging in behavior which violate the rights of people as US citizens.
The federal government, in other words, is entirely within its power to determine that actions by a State (in this case, conferring the benefits of marriage upon some citizens but not others) was un-constitutional. There are some ways in which states are permitted to discriminate but the judge found that the reasons given by the Pro-Prop 8 side for discrimination didn't pass the test.
You should read the ruling. It is longish but a not-difficult read, frick.
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| | | 289 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 16:27
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You should read the ruling. It is longish but a not-difficult read, frick.
If i interpret the ruling correctly the state should not be able to discriminated against me by denying my right to get married again if I am already married, either.
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| | | 290 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 16:46
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#289: That isn't covered in the ruling, according to my reading. The ruling doesn't cover how often one can be concurrently married (or any other legitimate State interests), but whether the State can prevent gays from marrying at all.
In fact, by my reading, the framework used to make the decision can certainly be used to justify a State being able to limit a person to one marriage at a time, as well as other legitimate State interests in regulating marriage.
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| | | 291 | Frick
ID: 4773157 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 17:44
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After reading PD's response and reasoning I'm leaning towards changing my mind on if states should have the right to determine who can be married. As boikin pointed out, are states then prohibited from banning multiple marriages? Or from family members marrying? I believe most states have laws prohibiting family members closer than 3rd cousins from marrying. In other societies it isn't not prohibited, so is it discrimination to prohibit based on genetic similarity?
Do you have a link to the ruling, I would like to read it.
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| | | 292 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 19:05
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The first link in #276 takes you to the whole ruling, frick.
I won't tell you how to read it, but merely point out that the judge thought the pro-Prop 8 folks did a terrible job of presenting their case.
The judge does a pretty decent case in laying out the State's Interest portion of the argument. [One reason a State can curtail civil rights is by the application of a legitimate State Interest. Stupid example: They can prevent people from going into a building for a political speech if the building is already full.]
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| | | 294 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 21:50
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Tom Scocca Newt Gingrich would like you to know, via the Newt Gingrich Twitter feed, that you can find his thoughts on the Proposition 8 ruling at Newt.org. Here they are: Judge Walker's ruling overturning Prop 8 is an outrageous disrespect for our Constitution and for the majority of people of the United States who believe marriage is the union of husband and wife. In every state of the union from California to Maine to Georgia, where the people have had a chance to vote they've affirmed that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. "An outrageous disrespect" is a little grammatically shaky for a scholar and published author. Still, unlike Sarah Palin's sanitized Facebook feed, Newt.org doesn't seem to mind a little dissent. Or a lot of it. Some of the comments that have been up on Gingrich's site since last night:
• Newt you cheated on your first wife then dumped her when she was in the hospital with cancer. Later you cheated on your second wife with a 27 year old congressional aide. Maybe you should pipe down about defending marriage.
• No, I want to hear more from the twice-divorced man about how marriage has to be reserved for one man and one woman. I wonder if the two former Mrs. Gingriches would testify as to Newt's reverence for marriage.
Newt Gingrich is unafraid to face his critics. That or he has a lazy webmaster. Either way, right now, the top-rated comment on Ginrgich's Prop 8 post—liked by 49 Newt.org readers—is "Which one of your multiple marriages was the most sacred to you?" That, Sarah Palin, is some real online community-building.
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| | | 296 | Frick
ID: 1273167 Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 22:36
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I don't see this debate going away. Ever.
The positions are to similar to the abortion debate. The sides are not compatible and I don't see a viable compromise.
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| | | 297 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 23:03
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The proposal in #295, to simply get government out of the marriage business all together, isn't even really a compromise. In fact I fail to see how it isn't an obvious solution to anyone who isn't eager to distort the Establishment Clause to make it fit their agenda.
Oh, yeah, that's 95% of all the people from the religious right I've ever heard comment on the topic. Never mind.
And to think, the majority of them demand from the other sides of their mouths that government get out of our lives.
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| | | 298 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 23:59
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#296: In the heat of battle it might seem like this will never go away, but I do see this becoming less intense as those against gay marriage realize that gays getting married will have far less impact on their own marriages than has been said.
Abortion is about a human life. Gay marriage is how other people live their lives. I don't think, in the long-term, those against gay marriage will be able to keep up the intensity as time goes on, frankly.
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| | | 299 | Boldwin
ID: 43753723 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 00:55
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He don't know me very well.
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| | | 300 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 07:20
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@PD - i think you're underestimating - or forgetting - the hatred and fear many on the right have of homosexuals.
it goes back generations, and it is filled with stereotype after stereotype, from sex-fiends to perverts to pedophiles to AIDS carriers and destroyers of families.
i think there will come a time when the hate-filled right - a minority these days, albeit a loud minority - goes back into the shadows of absurdity and we hear less about this issue, but i think the hatred and fear from those folks will remain.
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| | | 301 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 07:54
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Judge Walker's ruling overturning Prop 8 is an outrageous disrespect for our Constitution and for the majority of people of the United States who believe...
At one time in our nations history; did not the "majority" believe that women should not vote? Or that Native Americans were animals? Or that slavery, was a perfectly legitimate thing? Was it "judicial activism" on the part of those rulings which helped change those views?
Those on the far right need to accept, that their position on this topic, is an entirely religious based one; and thus NOT enforceable upon the entire nation thanks to the 1st Amendment.
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| | | 302 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 09:50
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He don't know me very well
I'm talking about in general. Like a shrinking minority, you are still fighting the battles of the 60s (as are some on the far Left). But both of those groups have been marginalized for some time. We no longer hose down blacks for daring to demand their rights, for instance.
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| | | 303 | Boldwin
ID: 5877812 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 13:10
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1) As most blacks will tell you, the two issues are not comparable.
2) Noah.
3) Lot
4) Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
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| | | 304 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 13:19
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See, Biblical mumbling is what got the pro-Prop 8 folks' ass kicked in that suit.
Marriage isn't the sole purview of the religious. And the State has no proven interest in advancing your religion over the rights of gays.
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| | | 305 | Boldwin
ID: 5877812 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 14:34
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Having a gay judge not recuse himself and just make it up as he went along is what got prop 8 passed along to the higher courts.
Onward to Kagan.
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| | | 306 | Boldwin
ID: 5877812 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 14:36
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And I wasn't posting #304 as an amicus brief to the court. I was posting that as an amicus brief to someone who imagines that he is pleasing to God.
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| | | 307 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 14:36
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Conservative judicial activists like Boldwin don't really care what the Constitution says according to people who actually care what the Constitution says, guys. "Adherence to the rule of law unless they disagree with it" and all that. Basically exactly what they accuse others of doing.
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| | | 308 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 14:54
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re 305...and would you make the same comment about a hetero judge who might rule otherwise, not recusing himself?
Classic deflection B.
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| | | 309 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 15:35
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Wicca is very displeased with those conservative activists trying to discriminate against gays, and so is Vishnu. Thus far, the descendants of Xenu remains silent on the matter.
I accord all of these the same relevance in interpreting the law. To do otherwise would be to establish a state religion. Of course, that would be unconstitutionally flying directly in the face of what is both written and intended by the Founding Fathers--but of course that's only bad when the other churches are doing it, right Mr. Bolderwrongo?
Of course, none of this really makes a difference as far as to what your particular cul--er, religion--wants to do with its own members. If the Church of the Seven-Armed Lobster wants to outlaw gay marriage among its own members, that's honky-dory with me. I'll pity their ignorance while enjoying their scrumptious, butter-soaked symbol of worship when it's in season, but it's really no business of mine.
For the "conservatives" who ACTUALLY believe in keeping government out of people's lives, this is a no-brainer. Unfortunately for those real conservatives, the religious crackpots who pervert the principle for their own purposes have infiltrated and nearly taken over their party.
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| | | 310 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 16:29
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Baldwin: I note that you made no bones about the judge being gay before. It sounds like excuse-making to me. Under what terms, exactly, should he recuse himself? Keep in mind that you believe gay marriage to be a zero-sum game.
What's next: No African-American judges on civil rights cases?
Clearly you haven't read the decision ["...just make it up as he went along..."] or followed the case at all. Can't you agree to hold off on commenting until you've actual read the material in question you are slamming?
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| | | 311 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sun, Aug 08, 2010, 17:49
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Having a gay judge not recuse himself and just make it up as he went along is what got prop 8 passed along to the higher courts.
lol. since it's a ruling on straight/gay, religious/non-religious, i suppose we should have all heterosexuals, homosexuals, religious people, and non-religious people recuse themselves from the case.
are you even remotely serious with that poorly-thought out response!??! really?!?!?
Clearly you haven't read the decision...
it's been established that first-hand is not important to him. he reads reports of reports of the actual events, and then bases his opinion on that (see Video, Sherrod for another example).
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| | | 312 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 12:57
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If a company was put on trial and the judge used to work for that company wouldn't you want him recused. Same thing. You liberals try to find racism in everything. No one cares that this judge is gay outside of this case, but because this is a landmark case that he himself has a vested interest in seeing a particular outcome then there's better people for the job.
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| | | 313 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 12:58
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So do you believe that only an atheist can hear the case properly, since clearly a Christian judge would have bias? Or does the bias only work one way?
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| | | 314 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 14:41
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You liberals try to find racism in everything
???
Then I suppose it should be really easy to point out where racism was raised by "liberals" in this long thread on gay marriage, yes?
... that he himself has a vested interest in seeing a particular outcome then there's better people for the job.
You might recall that the pro-Prop 8 argument was that gay marriage affected all marriages. In that case, is there someone who would not have a "vested interest" in the case? A nun, perhaps?
At this point there is so little for the Right to grab onto in this case. Are you unable, or unwilling, to respond to the content of the ruling, or is the sexuality of the judge enough that you don't think you have to?
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| | | 315 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 14:44
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"A nun, perhaps?" Clearly a nun would have a vested interest in the matter due to their religious bias, PD, so that's out.
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| | | 316 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 14:53
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But not because they want to get married one way or the other.
Is there anyone out there who is a member of a class which doesn't have a "vested interest" in this case? The whole nature of these cases which tackle constitutional questions is that we are all invested in the outcome.
That is why we address this from a content of the argument standpoint, instead of assuming that a judge's opinion is, essentially, worthless because they have a tenuous vested interest in his own decision. Of course he does. We all do.
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| | | 317 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 15:00
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You liberals try to find racism in everything
Aside from my confusion over what that sentence has to do with the post it finds itself in the mddle of, this is a rather bold statement to make in the wake of the Shirley Sherrod case (particularly with regard to what the harrd right - including at this forum - continues to say about her) and what most of the right's best known pundits have been saying about the first black American president since well before he took office.
There is no monopoly on 'race-baiting' on the left. And from my perspective, in the last few years or so, the greater bulk of it (public examples, anyway) comes from the right. There is no shortage of examples.
You do understand the difference between calling someone a racist for walking around with a sign emblazoned with the n-word, or passing out "Obama campaign bucks" with pictures of fried chicken and watermelons next to (then) Sen. Obama's on them - and calling the president of the US (who happens to be a constitutional scholar) a racist because he said that police who violated his friend's civil rights "acted stupidly", yes?
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| | | 318 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 18:29
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he himself has a vested interest in seeing a particular outcome
PD's comments in 316 sum it up well.
but, out of curiosity, just because the judge is gay, what vested interest does he have? maybe he has no desire to be married.
i hung out with a gay friend over the last several days (in fact, we shared a hotel room for four nights, and this may shock some on the far right, i'm still not gay), and we talked about this case.
he said, to paraphrase "i don't want to be like straight people. i don't need to be married. i want the same legal rights with my partner as two straight people have. he's my partner. if i'm dying in a hospital room, i want him there. why is it so hard for people to understand that??"
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| | | 319 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 18:44
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oh - and what does the leadership on the right have to say about the court ruling on Prop 8?
Not much.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell deftly sidestepped the question of whether gay marriage could be an issue for the midterm elections. "I don't know," he answered at a breakfast with reporters Thursday, then said that government spending and debt are the issues that voters really care about.
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| | | 320 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 18:32
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Is Judge Walker gay?
An assumption by the Right (in fact, an essential talking point right now)--it might not be the case.
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| | | 321 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 18:46
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key para in that link (IMHO):
In contrast to Petrelis' sleuthing, the local legal and political community is largely giving the issue the silent treatment. Most say that to ask the question is to validate the notion that Walker's sexuality is at all relevant to the case. Openly gay state Sen. Mark Leno told Salon: "It's completely diversionary. Do you remember anyone discussing Ron George or any other California Supreme Court justices' sexuality when they overturned Prop. 22? Of course not. The opponents of marriage equality understand that their old arguments are falling flat, that public opinion is going away from them and they are flailing." {emphasis added}
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| | | 322 | Boldwin
ID: 477201118 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 19:20
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People in the business of overturning the popular will by means of activists that they packed the Cali courts with, should not be bragging that the side with the votes is having their arguments fall flat.
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| | | 323 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 19:24
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Civil rights are not subject to the popular will. That's why we have a Constitution.
Left to the popular will, your Church would not exist in these United States, having been voted out long ago.
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| | | 324 | Boldwin
ID: 477201118 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 19:32
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I am familiar with arguments falling flat among the general population. [as was Noah]
The idea that marriage is between a man and a woman, and not any number of arbitrary bodies, is not one of them.
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| | | 325 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 21:43
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Fair enough. You can believe your shariah law to be above the Constitution here--the rest of us will content ourselves to debating Constitutional questions with the Constitution as our guide rather than the Bible.
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| | | 327 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 02:14
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You can believe your shariah law
too perfect. lol
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| | | 328 | Boldwin
ID: 587221121 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 04:23
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Well even in the short term, it's a race between how long it takes you libertines to destroy community standards and when you manage to find a liberal judge who finds it in the constitution to allow a woman and her cat to marry with the full approval of the state.
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| | | 329 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 08:41
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So this 'gay humans = household pets' argument of yours is a legal position?
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| | | 330 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 09:40
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how long it takes you libertines to destroy community standards and when you manage to find a liberal judge who finds it in the constitution to allow a woman and her cat to marry
when people like you used the same arguments in an effort to oppose blacks and whites marrying, you were proven wrong, and you'll be proven wrong in this case.
then again you personally lose even more credibility in your constant praise and support of men who repeatedly marry, divorce, and re-marry.
for you, this argument isn't about "community standards" or the "sanctity of marriage". it's all about being anti-gay.
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| | | 331 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 10:03
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What business is it of yours if consenting adults and felines want to get married? (Of course, determining consent in that case would be rather problematic.)
Alleged conservatives : using government again to interfere in people's lives since...
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| | | 332 | Boldwin
ID: 377491211 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:44
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Tree
I'm not against blacks and whites marrying so go stuff yourself.
MITH
You have no remaining legal argument preventing every other perversion which will inevitably show up at the courthouse next.
Really I want you to give me your "defense of civilization" amicus brief right now when the pedophiles, beastiality crowd, the polyamory groups show up next. I wouldn't even be surprised if the necrophilia devotees slip in before one of those.
You act astonished when I point out that the legal problem is the same, but you won't even be a speedbump when those show up next.
Liberals will have finally killed marriage, a project they've been hard at work on since well before H.G.Wells made his intentions known. The word will have lost all meaning.
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| | | 333 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:58
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I'm not against blacks and whites marrying so go stuff yourself.
if i could, i would. Ron Jeremy is my second cousin after all.
but man, LEARN SOME READING COMPREHENSION.
i didn't say you were against blacks and whites marrying. i just said "people like you" used the same argument against that sort of marriage as you do to be against gay marriage.
Liberals will have finally killed marriage... The word will have lost all meaning.
well, according to Merriam-Webster, the definition is as follows:
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage (same-sex marriage) b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage 2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities 3 : an intimate or close union (the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross)
seems to me liberals are making sure the word stays TRUE to its meaning.
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| | | 334 | Boldwin
ID: 377491211 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:59
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I'll go further and make a prediction that within ten years of legal gay marriage, the traditionally married will be describing themleves by a new term like 'scripturally married', and further that gay activists will be taking them to court for hate speech and winning when the traditional try and make the differentiation.
And we won't hear one apology from the crowd here who claimed it "wasn't effecting your marriage any".
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| | | 335 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 15:07
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I'll go further and make a prediction that within ten years of legal gay marriage, the traditionally married will be describing themleves by a new term like 'scripturally married'
i can say without question that if i get married again, i will never, ever, ever use that term, or anything even nearly that silly.
and probably, most people here will say the same thing.
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| | | 336 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 15:19
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Marriage isn't about what you call it, but how you live it. Only the very shallow would think that what you call it is more important than how you keep it together.
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| | | 337 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:01
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Re: 334 -- that would only be done by the people who continue to insist that they are better than others and that they should be able to treat others like subhumans.
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| | | 338 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:03
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Boldwin - You seem to be very, very much against gay marriage. Why? Does it affect you in any at all if two gays marry? My daughter lives in Hollywood. She and her husband are the parents of my two great grandchildren. She is friends with many gay couples, some of whom I have met. A few of them have adopted children, who seem quite happy and well rounded, and great friends with my grandchildren. They are no different whatsoever from the children of their straight friends. One of the gay guys who has a male partner has a child from a previous marriage (obviously before he came out of the closet). His son is currently attending the US Naval Academy. Should any of these people feel like they are any less fortunate, or deserving of respect and happiness than you, or anyone else?
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| | | 339 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:17
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Will you guys agree that if I don't want to be around gay guys or my kids around them in any way that you're OK with that if I say they can get married?
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| | | 340 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:20
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Indeed. I have learned as much or more from gay couples about good parenting than any straight couples I know. They are if anything more devoted, committed and in some respects conservative than straight couples, and they deserve our support and respect, not your ignorance-based scorn.
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| | | 341 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:24
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Sure, though you will be lesser for allowing your bigotry to rule your life.
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| | | 342 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:26
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Will you guys agree that if I don't want to be around gay guys or my kids around them in any way that you're OK with that if I say they can get married?
there is no law against being a bigot or a homophobe in your personal life in this country, so from that sense, you'll be fine.
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| | | 343 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:29
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Its fine by me too. Its a "free" country so you can do whatever you like in your own life if it doesn't effect others.
Hopefully you will allow your kids as they become adults to make up their own minds.
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| | | 344 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 16:40
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An honest, serious set of questions: why would you want to?
If a lifelong best friend or business partner, with whom you shared 30 years of memories and good times told you at age 55 that they were gay, would you choose to shun them and cut them off from your life? How would you treat the memories of any of the good times that you had? Would those be tarnished by this sudden revelation?
If your best customer company for your business, for whom you depended on your livelihood, was purchased by someone who you knew to be gay, would you end your business relationship with them?
What if they only bought 1/3 of the company, and you knew that the other 2/3 was owned by people who were not gay? If your business was the only thing keeping that business going, would you still cut them off?
Would you take these actions if you only thought someone was gay? What if it later turned out that they weren't--would you feel bad about that?
Again, these are honest, serious questions. I'm not trying to mock or troll or anything here--I'm just curious as to what lengths you'd be willing to go in practice to not associate with gays.
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| | | 345 | Boldwin
ID: 4070134 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 05:23
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Will you guys agree that if I don't want to be around gay guys or my kids around them in any way that you're OK with that - LB
Don't believe their reassurances. They are insisting that gays take over the moral indoctrination of your kids. They've got your kids for a whole lotta hours a day."When an opponent declares, 'I will not come over to your side.' I calmly say, 'Your child belongs to us already… What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.'" - guess who
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| | | 346 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 07:39
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Hillary Clinton? Excerpt from It Takes a Village.
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| | | 347 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 08:58
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That's the problem with liberals. They want live and let live unless you disagree with them.
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| | | 348 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 09:07
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I assume post 347, especially given that it appears in a thread primarily about the politics behind California's Prop 8, is sarcasm.
I'll play along... suuure, it's liberals who are the antagonists here, seeking to strip rights from those they disagree with. Just like the case in the NYC Cordoba House, and with businesses and upstarts who want an even playing field from telecoms on the internet, right?
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| | | 349 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 09:09
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They are insisting that gays take over the moral indoctrination of your kids. Who is "they"? Are you including those of us who do not have a problem with our loved ones associating with them in any way?
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| | | 350 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 09:23
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Don't believe their reassurances.
That's a problem Boldwin. Do you know what a hudna is? Liberals pull things like that. All we want is healthcare reform. All that is is a doorway to nationalized healthcare. All we want is gays to get married. Then it'll be something else to the next step. "Social Security and Medicare won't bankrupt us"
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| | | 351 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 09:48
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You got us. Our dream is to provide a colonoscopy, fee of charge, but only from a gay doctor married to union president.
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| | | 352 | Boldwin
ID: 4070134 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 09:59
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See.
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| | | 353 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 10:01
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You know, the problem for you guys is you can't just figure out who to hate the most. I mean, gays, Hispanics, Muslims... if you could just concentrate all that hate on one group at a time you might be able to actually get some good ol' fashioned genocide going and make some REAL headway!
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| | | 354 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 11:29
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Do tell, TLB, whats the next step after gay marriage on the liberal agenda?
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| | | 355 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 11:30
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Required gay marriage. All heteros are to be paired up.
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| | | 356 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 12:01
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Will you guys agree that if I don't want to be around gay guys or my kids around them in any way that you're OK with that if I say they can get married?
What does this mean? That you would insist that your local police force refuse to hire gays, because you would refuse to dignify a gay officer who wanted to speak with you? If a city counsel member is gay, not only would you refuse to go to any counsel meetings, but would you insist that he/she not be allowed to come to your kids' school to talk about local government?
Are you going to be so afraid of letting gays near your kids that you and your friends will create your own youth athletic leagues that has a no-gays-lesbian policy that extends to coaches, umpires and parents?
Do you use the local library? Will you stop if they have a gay employee?
Are you going to go "off the grid" if your meter reader is gay?
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| | | 357 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 14:01
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SZ, I'd aver that he's got the right to do all of those things except for insisting that the local police force not hire gays, and that the city councilman not be allowed to come talk at the school. In every other case, he's choosing to exclude himself from the activity.
I mean, I'd think anyone silly for (for instance) not using the public library because they think there's a gay person there (I mean, how would you know, it's not like there's a big scarlet G there or something) -- but if it came to that and he chooses not to go into the library, who are we to tell him he has to?
On the two points I disagree with, I do so because at that point he is no longer choosing to exclude himself from the situation, but would instead be trying to make that choice for others. Just because, for instance, he doesn't want a gay policeman on the force doesn't give him the right to make that decision. If he wants to move himself and his family to another town where there happen to be no gay policemen, that's fine. If he wants to vote against the city councilman who happens to be gay, and not be there to listen to them speak, that's allowed -- but that doesn't give him the right to silence the councilman entirely, or to insist that other people or their children not be allowed to hear them speak.
I'd think him an unenlightened fool with serious issues for doing those other things, and I'd pity the kids, but has he got the technical right to do it? Who are we to say otherwise?
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| | | 359 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 16:34
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Boldy #332
give me your "defense of civilization" amicus brief right now when the pedophiles, beastiality crowd, the polyamory groups show up next.
No problem.
1. Acts of pedophelia (much less any lifestyle which necessarily includes it) have no judicial precedent supporting it as a protected right (like marriage does) which cannot be legally denied to any citizens.
2. Unlike human beings, lower animals are not qualified for the rights guaranteed by the constitution to citizens. Further, like pedophelia, there is no judicial precedent in support of beastiality as a protected right which cannot be denied to any citizens.
3. Also unlike marriage, polygamy is not a protected right. In fact it is a felony in the United States under federal law. That status has been upheld and supported by numerous SCOTUS decisions.
I wouldn't even be surprised if the necrophilia devotees slip in before one of those.
Really? Well I'm not aware of any judicial precedent in favor of that, either. If you can enlighten me to the contrary, I'm all ears.
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| | | 360 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 16:55
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MITH (I'm not saying I agree with Boldwin's slippery slope, just playing devil's advocate) but at one point there was no judicial precedent for gay marriage, either. At one point in our history gay marriage *was* considered on the same level as some of the other issues Boldwin is bringing up.
I think its fine that they recognize gay marraige truly is not on the same level as pedofilia, necrophila or bestiality from a legal standpoint. But people like Boldwin are having a tough time extracting their moral judgements (which many people do morally put homosexuality on the same level as pedofilia) from legal judgements.
Boldwin is entitled to his moral judgement. He just has to recognize that morality and legality do not always intersect.
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| | | 361 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 17:11
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There is no reason, however, to advocate that recognizing committed gays can be married means that any two items can then be married.
Boldwin is entitled to his moral judgement. He just has to recognize that morality and legality do not always intersect.
Exactly. Too often the Right confuses politics and theology, to the detriment of both.
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| | | 362 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 17:20
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Boldwin is entitled to his moral judgement. He just has to recognize that morality and legality do not always intersect.
Exactly, and well said. This is for you
There are any number of things of which I do not personally approve, which I nonetheless believe should be legal, because I think other people are probably more qualified to make those choices for themselves--especially when those choices don't affect me personally. Does that make me the conservative, and Boldwin the liberal, on this issue?
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| | | 363 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 18:59
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Khahan 360
at one point there was no judicial precedent for gay marriage, either.
Where'd I cite a judicial precedent for gay marriage?
I cited a judicial precedent for marriage as a fundamental right. I cited this as a response to Boldwin's ficticious fearmongering that the same precedents cited to protect same sex marriage can be used to protect pedophelia, beastiality, polygamy and necrophelia.
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| | | 364 | Boldwin
ID: 257491318 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 19:51
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Really? Well I'm not aware of any judicial precedent in favor of that, either. If you can enlighten me to the contrary, I'm all ears.
The very one you cited. Marriage. You will have no legal argument left, or will have seriously eroded the roadblock when they want to marry their cat, dead body, turd, other 11 members of their coven, nephew...
And you obviously are unaware that there are both tremendous strides being made towards accepting international law as well as extending supposed legal rights to "sexual freedom to children", and human rights to animals among the various NGO's proposing laws to the UN.
My apologies for the grossness of the subject...at least while you are still capable of moral revulsion towards anything goes.
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| | | 365 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 19:58
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Read the damn ruling.
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| | | 366 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 20:05
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You'll have to show me in some kind of detail how any legal precedents protecting marriage as a fundamental right similarly protect the activity of necrophelia.
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| | | 367 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 20:34
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Read the damn ruling.
post it 50 more times, and it's not going to make a difference.
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| | | 368 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 20:53
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We're clearly still capable of moral revulsion toward bigots, so at least we've got that going for us.
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| | | 369 | Khahan
ID: 13126822 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 08:37
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Mith,you didn't cite specifically a judicial precedence for gay marriage but we have it now in California.
Again, morally boldwin puts homosexuality in with any number of various activities that he considers perversion (and I think most of us agree with most of his list actually). The point is, at one time the large majority of the country agreed. The further back you go, the more agreement there is for it. Boldwin sees this ruling in california and the more common philosophy that 'gay' is a way of life rather than a perversion as an erosion of basic fundamental moral values. And he believes its just a matter of time before this ruling is used to support further erosion by having it used as a reference for allowing pedophilia for example.
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| | | 370 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 09:47
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I could be wrong, but I think the consensus among experts is that homosexuals are born that way.
It's not a "way of life" or a perversion, they just ARE gay.
I don't know too many folks who suggest they were born to perform bestiality.
This is the heart of the distinction. Do we punish people for who the fundamentally (so to speak) are?
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| | | 371 | Khahan
ID: 13126822 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 10:55
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bili, don't read so much into a comment used as a way of easy speech.
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| | | 372 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 12:29
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Well, Khakan, he's welcome to believe that, but it's patently unfair to say stuff like "you want to indoctrinate my kids" and similar garbage.
Things like interracial marriage were considered perversions pretty recently, as well. People just like Boldwin used language just like he's using now to justify the hatred, the lynchings, and all the rest of it. Since then, most of us have evolved beyond that sort of behavior.
I think, as an aside, that you'd find that society pretty much draws the line to very heavily protect children and those who can't be assumed to consent to behavior for themselves. (Boldwin: spare us your creative interpretation of UN Document #897459743593745934 study session. We've heard you say it the first thousand times. We're not interested.)
For those who find certain behaviors "perversions" among people who consent to them among themselves, I offer a simple set of solutions: Don't engage in those behaviors. Discourage those behaviors among those that you have influence over, using reason as to why another choice might be preferable. Then, if other people, presented with the full story, choose another behavior... that still doesn't mean that YOU have to engage in it. So don't.
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| | | 373 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 12:45
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I wouldn't if it weren't a critical distinction.
No intent to disparage.
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| | | 374 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 13:27
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and I think most of us agree with most of his list actually
I haven't tallied the number of board members who put homosexuality on the same level of moral perversion as pedophelia, beastiality and necrophilia. Since we're being honest, I'll note that I regard such an opinion to be a perversion on the same moral level as racism or anti- semitism. Sorry if my opinion of you sounds harsh, but it's certainly no less harsh than the gay man or woman who reads your opinion that morally, s/he might as well be physically expressing his/her love with a small child. Or a pig. Or a rottting corpse. I'd also suggest that you might want to think before attributing such hateful bigotry to other people when you know for sure they are fellow hateful bigots but other SSM opponents can speak for themselves on whether they agree.
Anyway, I'm not interested in discussing the issue with someone who is so twisted as to think gay sex is on a moral level with rape - of animals, corpses and children. It was one thing to play around with Boldwin but I was under the impression that his warped bigotry was all alone here.
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| | | 375 | chode
ID: 23412621 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 13:43
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I believe Khahan's point in #369 was meant to read that "most of us agree" that things like pedophelia, beastiality and necrophelia are on the list of "perversions". He was not suggesting there is agreement that homosexuality is on that list.
For someone who hammers on about reading comprehension, you missed the boat on this one. But I think you are pretty much the best regular poster on this Poli board, so you're entitled to a pass or three.
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| | | 376 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 14:03
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If I've misunderstood him I'll let him set the record straight for himself. But as far as reading comprehension is concerned, I'm only guilty of taking him literally.
That said I do sometimes miss posts when I'm typing from a phone. And in this case I did miss #371, which would have prompted me to ask for a clarification rather than assume he meant it the way he wrote it.
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| | | 377 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 14:07
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And putting everything else aside, I don't agree (I fall well short of the smartest minds and best writers here) but thank you for the compliment.
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| | | 378 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 16:54
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If I thot it would take that long, I would predict that you would spend your elderly years decrying the slide into moral relativism as society slips all the way down that list, however it will descend too quickly for that, and so too will your values.
Wouldn't wanna be unfashionable or heaven forbid let anyone call us a bigot.
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| | | 379 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 17:05
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of the seemingly endless number of predictions you've made on these boards, a very, very, very tiny percentage have come true, if any at all.
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| | | 380 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 17:14
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I'll predict that crackpot religious cults will be further and further shunned by society over the next fifty years! What do I win?
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| | | 381 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 17:37
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BTW, SEICUS, the most pro-perversion institution in the world, is entirely in control of the UN process of writing the laws which will guide all nations with respect to child sexuality.
Someday soon you will be discussing an international judge overturning your community standards and it will be further on down that list.
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| | | 382 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 17:42
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SIECUS, rather.
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| | | 383 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 17:43
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I think Tree makes a pretty good point in #379.
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| | | 384 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 18:23
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You are a frog being boiled alive and not knowing it.
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| | | 385 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 18:28
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They've been implimenting SIECUS directives into the sexual education of children your whole life, more and more boldly and every increase in the heat is greeted with a yawn if it's even noticed.
SIECUS being the child of that noted homosexual and criminal pederast, Alfred Kinsey. And that is really too limiting a description of his perversions.
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| | | 386 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 18:33
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A leader in the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) has declared that the breakdown of traditional families, far from being a “crisis,” is actually a triumph for human rights.
Speaking at a colloquium held last month at Colegio Mexico in Mexico City, UNFPA representative Arie Hoekman denounced the idea that high rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births represent a social crisis, claiming that they represent instead the triumph of “human rights” against “patriarchy.”
"In the eyes of conservative forces, these changes mean that the family is in crisis," he said. "In crisis? More than a crisis, we are in the presence of a weakening of the patriarchal structure, as a result of the disappearance of the economic base that sustains it and because of the rise of new values centered in the recognition of fundamental human rights."
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| | |
| | | 388 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 18:39
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Who had the "Boldwin goes to the ridiculous 'UN is perverting your children' card"? Oh, wait, I did. BINGO! That was too easy.
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| | | 389 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 18:48
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When fifteen-year-old Kevin walked into his American History class at Cupertino High School in California, he was given a handout. He glanced at the title: "Heterosexuality: Can It be Cured?" Weird, he thought and looked around. Some of his friends were studying it, too. He read on:
"Heterosexuality is a condition characterized by a sexual attraction to members of the opposite gender. Many persons, in all cultures, at all times, have been heterosexual....
'Whatever the cause of this phenomenon, we can state without doubt that there are many problems associated with heterosexuality, both for the individual and society at large.
Curious, Kevin scanned the list of problems. Women were especially vulnerable, it said. They could face sexually transmitted diseases and unplanned pregnancy as well as mental and psychological hazards" such as "a state of homophobia." The suggested treatments included psychotherapy and wide-spread sterilization of the heterosexual population. Was this a joke?
The next page gave the source of this bizarre "research". It came from the American Public Health Association Caucus of Gay and Public Health Workers.
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| | | 390 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 18:50
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If I tried to post all the instances of transgenders, prostitutes, gays invited to talk to students expressly with the students instructed to keep their parents in the dark about the event, this thread would be overwhelmed.
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| | | 391 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 18:59
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And, as usual, your last post completely misses the point -- or rather, it makes a completely different point than you intended.
Reminds me a great deal of the experiments and classroom settings where certain children were made "white" for a day and other children were made "black" for a day -- forced to stand in the back of the line, to not use certain bathrooms, to understand what it felt like to be less human. Oh, the screams of those parents that their children were forced to be indoctrinated to be like those awful Negroes! The humanity! The very IDEA that we should treat those darkies like more than the animals they are!
But of course, that's something only bigots would do, and you've said you aren't that--so it must be something else.
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| | | 392 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 19:11
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Khahan
Notice that no one has even attempted to show the legal argument that will prevent the rest of that list from being normalized legally. Because they have just greased the skids.
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| | | 393 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 19:16
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no one has even attempted to show the legal argument that will prevent the rest of that list from being normalized legally.
Sigh.
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| | | 394 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 20:03
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See how that goes over in the court.
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| | | 395 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 20:06
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Uh, what, exactly? Like the Prop-8 supporters, you aren't even attempting an argument here.
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| | | 396 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 20:15
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Find me a cogent legal case for preventing the rest of that list from being legally normalized. You are trying to tell me there is no connection. So make the legal case. What legal principle are you going to appeal to.
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| | | 397 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 20:29
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Is it that you have forgotten that we already started this discussion?
Post 359 responded to post 332. I'd give you a pass for missing it but you actually responded to it in 364. I then replied in 366 and now you've declared after engaging me on the issue that no one has even attempted to respond to you.
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| | | 398 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 20:29
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Poor Grandma used to do the same thing when she started slipping.
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| | | 399 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 20:40
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Is there a lawyer here who would consider #359 workable legal argument?
How is the fact that marriage itself is a protected institution in any way a justification for extending the definitions of the acceptible participants and if that works, on what basis do you exclude any other potential participants?
"You want to marry your cat? Well of course you can, what with marriage being a protected institution".
And if judicial precedent is your touchstone, there is plenty of judicial precedent for excluding gay marriage, namely the whole of American history prior to the sexual revolution.
In fact you won't get judge Walker to disallow polyamory based on precedent as there is more precedent for polyamory acceptance than gay marriage.
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| | | 401 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 21:42
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How is the fact that marriage itself is a protected institution in any way a justification for extending the definitions of the acceptible participants and if that works, on what basis do you exclude any other potential participants?
How I took your question was to ask how to prevent the precedents cited to strike down Prop 8 from being used to legalize those other activities. The simple answer was that precedent cited was marriage as a protected right available to all citizens. Since none of those other things are protected rights, the precedent doesn't apply.
But if you meant to ask how to prevent the precedents cited from extending the institution of marriage to thos people, I agree the answer is a little different, even if the question is still inane.
Marriage is a protected right available to citizens. Since children, animals and corpses do not possess the full rights of American citizens, I think it's a tough case to make for Fido and the others.
Polygamy, as I previously noted, is a federal felony with no shortage of judicial precedent protecting that status.
Of course the bottom line is that the nature of our system of laws is that everything down to the most basic restrictions and freedoms is overturnable. We praise the FFs for that and the fact of the matter is that if the direction of the culture so dictates it, just about anything, glorious to completely destructive, can be codified in our system.
So this argument of your is a really pointless exercise.
Boldwin, you're on record as in agreement with me that the government should get out of the marriage business all together and establish seperate framework for the legal agreements between partners. I have to believe it hass occurred to you that the result of making all marriages nonlegal institutions would be that all manner of nontraditional to bizarre arrangements would be casually called marriages. The term would be subject to all the unfortunate whims of pop-culture vernacular - much moreso than might currently be the case if you eliminate the procedures necessary to obtain a marriage.
But if you really do prefer the institution be void of any necessary government sanction (and weren't just taking the position because it happened to be convenient at the time) more than you're concerned with the societal impact resulting from the liberation of the term from anything particularly useful outside of religious tradition and sacrament, it's completely baffling to me that you care a whit about how the government defines it today, so long as their legal definition includes what you want your marriage to be.
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| | | 402 | Boldwin
ID: 217531415 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 22:43
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They can have their civil union and all the bennies they want. Just don't destroy the institution of marriage just because every other twisted thing wants the government stamp of approval.
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| | | 403 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 22:49
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I don't know what bennies are.
And, again, if you think government should be relieved of it's authority to sanction your marriage, there is no logical reason for you to be concerned about any "institution of marriage" beyond what your own religion does.
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| | | 404 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 23:01
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Question: did the cat consent to this marriage?
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| | | 405 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 00:26
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allowing same sex marriage, is not to 'destroy' marriage. If it were, please tell us how your own marriage will have been "destroyed", with the next wedding of a same sex couple.
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| | | 406 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 02:31
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destroy the institution of marriage
please explain what you consider the preservation of the "institution of marriage"?
because lord knows a lot of your "heroes" are hardly shining beacons of the sanctity of marriage.
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| | | 407 | Khahan
ID: 13126822 Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 02:45
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Sorry, haven't checked in for a while but I'll try to set the record straight as requested. MITH said: (If I've misunderstood him I'll let him set the record straight for himself. But as far as reading comprehension is concerned, I'm only guilty of taking him literally. ):
Again, morally boldwin puts homosexuality in with any number of various activities that he considers perversion (and I think most of us agree with most of his list actually)
I'll just respond by copying Chodes answer to you: (My) point in #369 was meant to read that "most of us agree" that things like pedophelia, beastiality and necrophelia are on the list of "perversions". (I) was not suggesting there is agreement that homosexuality is on that list.
Maybe you missed the second most (most of his list).
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| | | 408 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 12:20
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A commenter on Frum crystalizes the decision from a pro-Prop 8 standpoint
To justify the ban on a fundamental right (marriage), the Prop 8 proponents have the burden of proof to show that there is a societal danger, that SSM will cause that danger, and that banning SSM will prevent the danger. I mean, those are the rules. “Who knows what will happen” legally isn’t going to get over that bar.
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| | |
| | | 410 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 13:08
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the burden of proof to show that there is a societal danger, that SSM will cause that danger, and that banning SSM will prevent the danger.
Then let us ban divorce, adultery, and substance abuse as well. Then we can sanctify marriage. I would contend that divorce has caused more harm to children and the institution of marriage because of the grand scale on which it happens.
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| | | 411 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 13:13
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I completely agree. This biggest threat to marriage is no-fault divorce laws. It certainly isn't that some gays want their long-term partnerships to be legally recognized.
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| | | 412 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 13:18
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There are people close to me who are divorced and the impact on their children is easily visible. Especially when you hear sad stories about what young kids because they do not understand. I do believe gay marriage is a threat to God's best intentions, but those intentions were thrown to the wolves once divorce became widespread.
I do struggle with what is better, a single mother or father against a happy gay couple.
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| | | 413 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Sep 10, 2010, 13:36
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That isn't a complete comparison, I don't think. A better would be: A single parent after putting the children through a divorce, or a happy gay couple.
Obviously I'm a little biased on the point--as a Catholic, we marry for life typically.
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| | | 414 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 01:37
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i am so proud of my city councilman, Joel Burns. my openly gay city councilman Joel Burns, in the heart of the second most conservative-leaning county in the United States.
If this doesn't move you, you're an uncaring, practically inhuman, barbarian.
"It gets better...It will get better."
Amen, Joel Burns, amen.
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| | | 415 | Boldwin
ID: 25923143 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 04:24
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They embraced him. They loved him. They supported his lifestyle choice. - Valerie Jarrett
Two out of three aint bad. And thanks for admitting it's not genetic, Valerie.
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| | | 416 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 09:25
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Being gay is as much of a choice as being straight.
When people refer to a lifestyle choice, they are referring to being openly gay vs. in the closet.
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| | | 417 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 09:29
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the lack of sympathy and understanding in #415 toward teens and pre-teens killing themselves because of bullying and homophobia is not shocking, and shows how far we have to go to bring equality to all.
and for 416, thank you. beat me to the punch.
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| | | 418 | Frick
ID: 42825248 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 10:59
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It extends past teens and pre-teens. How many people are over 18 and still living in fear of friends and relatives? Or living a miserable life in an attempt to be "normal" as defined by someone else.
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| | | 419 | Boldwin
ID: 25923143 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 11:46
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How many people are over 18 and still living in fear of friends and relatives...living a miserable life in an attempt to be "normal" as defined by someone else.
People with moral values so afraid of being called homophobic that they don't dare speak up for their own values?
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| | | 420 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 11:48
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Such is the plight of racists, too.
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| | | 421 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 11:52
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Blaming the victim for not "standing up for their values" sounds very Christian.
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| | | 422 | Boldwin
ID: 25923143 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 11:54
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So your point is that gays in the closet and racists are similar?
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| | | 423 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 12:04
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My point is that there is no excuse for bigotry, racism, homophobia or otherwise.
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| | | 424 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 13:06
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Has it gotten better for you Tree?
Being gay is as much of a choice as being straight.
Thank you for admitting it Razor.
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| | | 425 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 14:27
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Did you choose to be straight? I did not.
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| | | 426 | Tree, not at home
ID: 18342816 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 14:33
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Has it gotten better for you Tree?
in what sense? if you're implying i'm gay, then i'm sorry to disappoint you, i'm not. and if you're meaning it as an insult vis a vis being gay, then i think my point is rested.
it has gotten better for most of my gay friends. many even survived out of their teenage years. but there is still a long way to go.
Being gay is as much of a choice as being straight.
Thank you for admitting it Razor.
i wonder just how far over your head that post went.
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| | | 427 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616 Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 18:02
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If not for the two responses after TLB's 424, where Razor and Tree refuse to be insulted by your sophomoric attempt at humor, your post, The Left Behind, was in violation of the civility policy.
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| | | 428 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 07:50
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wondering how viral this aggressive, yet tongue-in-cheek, campaign will go. notice FROM A LANGUAGE STANDPOINT, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NSFW FOR MANY FOLKS, SO DON'T WATCH IF SWEAR WORDS CAN GET YOU INTO TROUBLE.
(as someone who finds Social Media fascinating, the previously posted video from Joel Burns has been up only 2 days, while this one has been up 5. his message so far has been viewed three times as many as this one)
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| | | 430 | J-Bar
ID: 139551818 Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 20:23
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All I hear is how 'all the gay and lesbian community wants is equal treatment' and that the slippery slope arguments are fear mongering. I can see the argument but some of it is self inflicted. What I mean by this is that in reading articles this weekend and watching news 'GLBT" was used to describe this group of individuals that were debating. Well I am going to say that BI-sexual is highly doubtful to be genetic yet it is now being included with this group (which was not the case at the beginning of the movement). It amazes me that reasonable people can't come to reasonable compromise in this area. Everyone wants to dig in the sand instead of talking rationally.
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| | | 431 | sarge33rd
ID: 47847175 Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 22:20
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I don't know J-Bar, that anyone has deemed homosexuality or heterosexuality; to be "genetic" either. I think it a more complex matter than a simple gene difference. Something in the "wiring" of the brain perhaps.
But for those who claim any-sexuality to be a choice (and I know of no one who is homosexual who makes that claim), I ask one question:
When EXACTLY, did you sit down and CHOOSE to be hetero-sexual? When did you deliberately sit and contemplate how you wanted/intended to live out your own sexuality?
For my part, I have found the female form to be sexually stimulating, from circa age 12 or so. NEVER, not once, did I sit and ask myself if I WANTED to be straight, or gay or bi. Never did I CHOOSE, to be anything in that regard. I simply am, what I am. A straight male, who tremendously enjoys the intimate company of a female.
I have neither the right, nor the authority; to deny another persosn the right of being what they are. Be that straight, gay or bi.
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| | | 432 | Boldwin
ID: 99361821 Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 22:36
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Building a hardwired brain...no we aren't really hardwired but we can grow stronger neuron links until we resemble hardwiring.Even continual, repeated fantasies about the same person or activity can trigger dopamine and oxytocin to a degree that you actually start psychologically and biologically bonding with that person/image/idea. Once that bond is formed, it is more difficult to just let it go. Viola! You are officially hooked. Fantasizing...something we chose to do.
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| | | 433 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 22:47
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One thing that some people, be they hetero or homosexual, tend to do is allow their every waking minute be dominated by their sexual preferences. I don't care if you're homosexual. I don't care if you think you're the second coming of Hugh Hefner. You're annoying. Is your life so empty that it has to revolve around your sexual escapades, no matter what environment you happen to find yourself?
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| | | 434 | Boldwin
ID: 10916195 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 06:22
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I suppose you could also say that people chose to expose themselves to the sexual pressure cooker that is the media. The results are predictable if annoying.
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| | | 435 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 10:11
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I don't know J-Bar, that anyone has deemed homosexuality or heterosexuality; to be "genetic" either.
I can't wait till the study comes out that shows a link between mother's diet and homosexuality comes out.
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| | | 436 | Boldwin
ID: 10916195 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 11:44
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If she's been tearing down the father-figure for years, it sure does.
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| | | 437 | Boldwin
ID: 10916195 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 11:44
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In front of her kids, that is.
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| | | 438 | tree on the evo
ID: 4251457 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 11:52
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If she's been tearing down the father-figure for years, it sure does.
If that were true I'd be gay. My folks split up 32 years ago and my mom disparages my dad any chance she gets...so, another falsehood posted by you...
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| | | 439 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 11:56
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That is hilarious and shows the type of ignorance we're dealing with. A mom who badmouths a kid's father makes the kid want to go have sex with men. That is so absurd I don't even know where to begin.
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| | | 440 | Tree, not at home
ID: 18342816 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 12:11
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That is so absurd I don't even know where to begin.
well, if your mom badmouthed your dad, you can start by going out and having sex with men.
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| | | 441 | Boldwin
ID: 10916195 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 12:15
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It's hard to have a healthy self-respect, progress normally in sexual development, want to become a father-figure yourself, and to have a healthy relationship with your parents under these circumstances.
They can indeed go looking for a missing relationship with a father-figure.
Learn the truth about arrested development.
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| | | 442 | Tree, not at home
ID: 18342816 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 12:34
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It's hard to have a healthy self-respect, progress normally in sexual development, want to become a father-figure yourself, and to have a healthy relationship with your parents under these circumstances.
1. that's not what you originally said, but your style of making an outrageous statement, then backing off it and going in another direction shortly afterwards is well noted on these boards.
2. hard? perhaps? impossible, not by a long shot. plenty of children of divorced parents go on to normal, healthy lives in regards to relationships and sexuality.
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| | | 443 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 12:36
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Children are a lot more flexible than many give them credit for, unlike what some extreme liberals might say. And Baldwin.
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| | | 444 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 13:24
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Clearly, we should be pushing to immediately remove children from the homes of divorced parents, since they might accidentally catch homosexuality. At least that will give the DCFS something to do instead of harassing wife-beaters.
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| | | 445 | Boldwin
ID: 10951913 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 14:14
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2. hard? perhaps? impossible, not by a long shot. plenty of children of divorced parents go on to normal
So easy to think you are brilliant when you argue with a strawman of your own making.
Of course it is just one more factor that somewhat tend to lean one in that direction. [In this case it often hits the oldest child hardest, btw] The whole point is that homosexuality is not unavoidably predetermined and certainly not genetically predetermined. People have any number of forces and natural tendencies but personal choice trumps them all.
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| | | 446 | Tree, not at home
ID: 18342816 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 14:46
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2. hard? perhaps? impossible, not by a long shot. plenty of children of divorced parents go on to normal
So easy to think you are brilliant when you argue with a strawman of your own making.
actually, i misread your initial post.
so, that being said, you said It's hard to have a healthy self-respect, progress normally in sexual development, want to become a father-figure yourself, and to have a healthy relationship with your parents under these circumstances.
i'm the oldest. my relationship with my parents - including my step-mother - is fantastic. i have ZERO issues with my parents, nor do any of my younger brothers.
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| | | 447 | Frick
ID: 42825248 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 15:23
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Actually Boldwin is right. People do have personal choice. They have the personal choice to live repressed miserable lives so that the rest of us can continue to ignore the issue and pretend that it doesn't exist.
Apparently personal choice is only allowed when it fits into someone else's definition of normality and morality.
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| | | 448 | Boldwin
ID: 10951913 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 17:33
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Tree
I'm just saying, that if you had heard your mother devastate your father day after day and bought into it that he was the lowest of the low, you would have a hard time coming to terms with your father and aiming to become a father-figure yourself. I'm not saying it isn't doable. It is just a significant factor that comes up repeatedly in the case history of homosexuals.
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| | | 449 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, Oct 19, 2010, 18:37
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It is just a significant factor that comes up repeatedly in the case history of homosexuals.
you can't make this leap without providing links and evidence, and no, a link to an organization that "offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality" is not an acceptable link.
although the simple fact you use the term "case history" in regards to homosexual speaks volumes.
additionally, what about lesbians? is it their father beating down their mother that makes them gay? and what makes someone bi? both parents beating each other up? what about a trannie? your father beating your mother while he wears a skirt?
seriously though, provide evidence to your assertion.
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| | | 450 | Frick
ID: 42825248 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 08:32
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I'm not sure how to embed videos, but I applaud this company for taking a stand.
It Gets Better
I wonder if Boldwin will now boycott all of Google's services.
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| | | 451 | biliruben
ID: 34820210 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 09:11
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Very cool.
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| | | 452 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 12:47
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I'm just saying, that if you had heard your mother devastate your father day after day...
Boldwin, the promotion of gays by the left is just more of their anti-white male agenda.
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| | | 453 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 16:09
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"Boldwin, the promotion of gays by the left is just more of their anti-bigoted agenda."
FYP. Of course, this is in direct opposition to your pro-bigoted agenda, so once again, I thank you for the compliment.
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| | | 454 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 16:40
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Boldwin, the promotion of gays by the left is just more of their anti-white male agenda.
I dunno--I know of a number of gays, and nearly all are white males.
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| | | 455 | Tree, not at home
ID: 18342816 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 16:56
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I'm just saying, that if you had heard your mother devastate your father day after day...
Boldwin, the promotion of gays by the left is just more of their anti-white male agenda
this doesn't even make ANY sense. i mean, NONE. lol. it did make me laugh though, so thanks.
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| | | 456 | J-Bar
ID: 119342020 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 21:59
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Re Sarge 431- You do not feel that being bi-sexual is a choice and therefore should be included in the marriage argument which then should allow someone to marry a man and a woman. Nice argument, again as I stated above it is this type of response to the debate that keeps it from happening because no where did I state that I wanted 'to deny another persosn the right of being what they are' to use your language.
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| | | 457 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 22:39
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Sarge didn't say that someone's sexuality should allow them to marry more than one person. So far as I know no one in this thread has made the claim that homosexuals should get any more rights than heterosexuals do.
He said that one's sexuality is typically not a choice. And he's right.
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| | | 458 | J-Bar
ID: 119342020 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 22:45
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What's the title of this thread? I will put you in the bisexuality is not a choice camp. Thanks for the enlightenment.
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| | | 459 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 23:00
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Put me wherever you want. Just don't put words into the mouth of Sarge that he didn't make. That's a childish act not worthy of further response.
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| | | 460 | J-Bar
ID: 119342020 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 23:06
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I didn't have to put anything anywhere. "NEVER, not once, did I sit and ask myself if I WANTED to be straight, or gay or bi. Never did I CHOOSE, to be anything in that regard." Childish maybe but oh well
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| | | 461 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 23:20
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no one in this thread has made the claim that homosexuals should get any more rights than heterosexuals do.
Maybe not consciously, or intentionally, but equal opportunity laws in housing and employment extend rights that heterosexuals don't enjoy.
If a gay-owned business refuses to hire anyone who is straight, is there any recourse for that straight person in the courts? If gay landlords refuse to rent to anyone but gays, isn't this reverse discrimination as well?
Similarly, can a white guy(or Latin or Asian) ever get a job with the Harlem Globetrotters?
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| | | 462 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 23:39
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Still, the point remains: No one in this thread has made the claim.
The courts protect the rights of certain members of protected classes (those that are discriminated against for reasons of race, class, etc etc). Sexual orientation is not a protected federal class, but is in certain states. So yes, some recourse is available in those states for which sexual orientation is a description of a sexual class.
You remember the University of California vs Bakke case, yes?
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| | | 463 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Wed, Oct 20, 2010, 23:55
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No, not familiar with that case. That might have been the year I drank tequila daily(1978), a class with no protection whatsoever.
Fortunately, today we have google(or Bing in this case), so, voila! now I'm familiar.
Bakke's qualifications (college GPA and test scores) exceeded those of any of the minority students admitted in the two years Bakke's applications were rejected. Bakke contended, first in the California courts, then in the Supreme Court, that he was excluded from admission solely on the basis of race.
Seems pretty cut and dried. It's shocking that 4 justices felt otherwise.
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| | | 464 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Oct 21, 2010, 00:05
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Agreed. The dissenting opinions were very messy, however, mostly because the questions that they were being asked to address were messy. In general, the agreement centered around the fact that Bakke was rejected from consideration in the special program solely because of his race. And that, everyone agreed, was wrong.
Because that case decision wasn't a very forceful one for SCOTUS, a lot of stuff continued to get dragged out, making addressing real racial problems hit or miss. People really got caught up in the question of whether something was a "quota" or not, rather than whether there really was underlying racial discrimination in particular areas and the best way to address it going forward is there was.
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| | | 465 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Thu, Oct 21, 2010, 17:32
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reverse discrimination as well?
I really hate this use of the term. Reverse discrimination would be to take an action regardless of somebody race, gender, religion etc.
What you are describing is discrimination, plain and simple. No two ways about it. If i deny somebody a job because they are black, gay, female or Muslim I've discriminated against them. If a black, gay, female or Muslim denies me a job because I'm white, male, straight or agnostic they've discriminated against me.
If they sue me and get what they wanted, the act of discrimination has now been reversed. Thats reverse discrimination.
*sorry to hijack thread but that is a major pet-peeve of mine. Just because its been around as a label for how many decades does not make it right.
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| | | 466 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, Oct 21, 2010, 20:37
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Good point, Khahan. I stand semantically corrected.
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| | | 467 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Thu, Oct 21, 2010, 22:13
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Reverse discrimination (From Dictionary.com) the unfair treatment of members of majority groups resulting from preferential policies, as in college admissions or employment, intended to remedy earlier discrimination against minorities.
Reverse discrimination (From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law) : discrimination against whites or males (as in employment or education)
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| | | 468 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Thu, Oct 21, 2010, 22:27
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re 456...noooooo
a bi-sexual, should be allowed to marry either a male or a female. For that matter, anyone of adult age, should be allowed to wed either a male or a female (also of adult age), as they choose. It is not my place, nor is it yours, to say who Mr/Ms Jones is allowed to fall in love with.
Your leap, and erroneous assumption is why honest dialogue is virtually impossible. You will twist what was said, into what wasnt, just so you can oppose your own twisted version. Not even well enough done in this case, to warrant a 'nice try' acknowledgment.
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| | | 469 | Khahan
ID: 13126822 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 01:13
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bibA - not sure what your point is. Reverse discrimination is a coined term which implies a differentiation between 2 people discriminating against each other.
I'm well aware that a dictionary definition of this term exists. I'm well aware of what the term means. My point is this: its complete bs that the term even exists. It is NOT different. Just because a person is of a majority group does not mean s/he cannot be discriminated against. But to give it a different term implies otherwise.
Again, if I'm denied a job because I'm white, male or straight then I'm denied a job based on my race, gender or sexual preference. That is discrimination. No two ways about it. It is nothing else. Coining a different phrase so people can discriminate and feel good about it does not change what it is.
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| | | 470 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 07:24
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My point was that although someone may feel a definition of a term should mean one thing, they might also realize that if the majority of us believe basically in a similar meaning that differs with yours, and dictionaries state the same, then the majority are not "wrong". We may not believe in the results of a definition, but maybe should accept that it is merely semantics that most accept without necessarily approving of the outcome.
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| | | 471 | Frick
ID: 42825248 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 10:10
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So is the term reverse discrimination necessary? Or is it a politically correct term that has entered into the language?
I could be misunderstanding Khahan's point, but after reading his point, that was the first thought I had. We don't need a separate term for types of discrimination. Discrimination is wrong, regardless of the victim.
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| | | 472 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 10:12
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I don't think it is "politically correct" at all. I think it is used to differentiate between two different types of discrimination.
Discrimination often is wrong. But not always.
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| | | 473 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 10:29
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Reverse discrimination is used to differentiate between a minority group discriminating against a majority group as opposed to a majority group discriminating against the minority.
Thats it. Nothing else. But it describes the exact same act. There is no difference in the act itself. Just in the parties performing the act. So why would there be any reason to differentiate the act if not to make one party feel better about what they are doing. In my experiences, reverse discrimination has been separated out as a reason to justify discrimination.
No matter how you slice it or what you call it, discrimination is discrimination. Relabeling it to something else serves no purpose.
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| | | 474 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 10:35
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Yes, it is discrimination. But actually, there is a very large legal distinction between the two. I understand your peeve (and to a large degree agree with it). But the term "reverse discrimination" isn't a valueless phrase.
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| | | 476 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 11:35
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Reverse discrimination is used to differentiate between a minority group discriminating against a majority group as opposed to a majority group discriminating against the minority.
actually this not quite right, i think the term reverse discrimination, means exactly what it says. it means the act of discriminating against ones self, in other words the people in power and/or majority discriminating against there own in favor of another group. It is still a form of discrimination it is just pointing out that one does this to themselves and historically discrimination against ones own group is not looked upon quite as negatively unless you selling state secrets.
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| | | 477 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 16:10
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I'll never understand the notion that sexuality is a choice. Does JBar believe bisexual people have relationships with both genders despite being physically/romanticly attracted to only one gender?
And what in the world does bisexuality have to do with polygamy?
I find myself attracted to women with dark hair and women with fair hair. Is he concerned that I might establish an argument that I should qualify for multiple marriages with women of different color hair?
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| | | 478 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 17:35
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And what in the world does bisexuality have to do with polygamy?
you say that like polygamy is bad thing like some out it is not equal choice other marriages.
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| | | 479 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 17:36
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boikin - maybe over time the meaning or definition/use of 'reverse discrimination' has changed. I go by the definition I was taught in college in my incultural communication courses. I was taught that minorities cannot discriminate against a majority group and that because of this, the term 'reverse discrimination' was coined to describe the effects of ideas such as quotas (when a minority group receives preference because of their minority status).
I remember that class pretty clearly/distinctly. Even the professer said she didn't necessarily agree with the concept, she was just teaching us about different philosophies out there. This was back when the term was pretty new.
Ok, to bring this back to the threat topic: At this point I think of pool of homosexual, gay, lesbian, bi- people is so large is comprised of a good mix of people who: a) are just gay either by genetics or environment and b) people who choose to be gay either out of curiosity or because its the 'in thing' to do. and c) inmates who have no choice (ok, bad joke)
I doubt anybody can convince me that being gay falls 100% into either category a or b, which really only leaves both categories as viable options.
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| | | 481 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 18:33
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I don't think there's any question there are environmental influences. For example I don't believe most people are born with a revulsion to homosexuality. Similarly, open-minded people or people who are subject to social influences might experiment outside of their own natural preferences. But I also believe most people, especially adults, know what they're attracted to and simply act on that.
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| | | 482 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 19:07
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I was taught that minorities cannot discriminate against a majority group
This doesn't hold up to even a little scrutiny: African-American homeowner wants to rent their house won't rent to a white couple. Reverse discrimination or not?
Reverse discrimination also occurs (and occurs most often) when a government entity discriminates against a majority group, such as setting hard quotas in the Bakke case.
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| | | 483 | Frick
ID: 42825248 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 19:12
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I find myself attracted to women with dark hair and women with fair hair. Is he concerned that I might establish an argument that I should qualify for multiple marriages with women of different color hair?
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Although would it be possible to have it arrive in a discrete brown paper wrapper? I highly doubt my wife would approve. Wait, you don't think that will happen. Nevermind.
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| | | 484 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Oct 22, 2010, 19:26
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LOL!
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| | | 485 | J-Bar
ID: 99372218 Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 00:18
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Sarge why is it that you use the word OR 'a bi-sexual, should be allowed to marry either a male or a female'. You do not want to tell anyone who they can or can't marry unless there is an AND. The only leap that I made was that if you feel that sexual orientation is completely irrelevant when discussing marriage then if the sexual preference is both genders they should be able to marry both genders (at the same time). Just extrapolating the belief that you stated. Oh and please tell me what my twisted version since you feel that you know.
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| | | 486 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 02:20
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You're confusing extrapolation with incoherence.
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| | | 487 | bibA
ID: 48627713 Sat, Oct 23, 2010, 07:34
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Had to chuckle at 486. I was thinking the same thing. When J-Bar CHANGES what sarge said to something completely different, he apparently feels this is just "extrapolating".
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| | | 488 | Khahan
ID: 13126822 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 02:38
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This doesn't hold up to even a little scrutiny: African-American homeowner wants to rent their house won't rent to a white couple. Reverse discrimination or not?
You'd be amazed at what holds up, PD, to the most thorough scrutiny. Of course I maintain that 'reverse discrimination' does not exist in the way its normally used. It was a term coined by special interest groups to separate themselves from the negative benefits of special benefits they received.
You'll note that in the Bakke Case, the term reverse discrimination does NOT appear in any official judicial findings/opinions:
Justice Powells opinion
Justice White opinion
Justice Brennan concurring judgement
The other justices are right there, too. Not a one uses 'reverse discrimination.'
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| | | 489 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 09:36
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That's true. But I think we're getting down to the granular level here--you take offense at a term you believe to be coined, while I maintain it has some descriptive use. Both these beliefs can exist, without bumping into each other too hard, on the same board.
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| | | 490 | Boldwin
ID: 43947245 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 13:00
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Thomas Jefferson on homosexuality:
ctrl-f sodomy
Go on, I dare ya
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| | | 491 | Boldwin
ID: 43947245 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 13:14
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Music to discuss polygamy over.
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| | | 492 | Boldwin
ID: 43947245 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 13:27
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It's times like this I realize how much I missed by ignoring country music.
If only I could skip right to the primo stuff but alas, I just don't know the landscape.
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| | | 493 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 17:08
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Thomas Jefferson on homosexuality:
ctrl-f sodomy
Go on, I dare ya
i'm sure good ol' TJ never enjoyed some fellatio with Sally Hemmings.
It's times like this I realize how much I missed by ignoring country music.
nice of you to come around to the open-minded side of things, posting a link to Patsy Cline, who happens to be a icon to lesbians world-wide.
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| | | 494 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 17:14
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Re: 491 -- great news, you're only up for a ducking and whipping, not to exceed 15 lashes!
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| | | 495 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Sun, Oct 24, 2010, 20:11
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Out of curiosity, who besides the rightwing on this forum, has linked same-sex marriage with polygamy and on what hard facts is said link being put forth?
IOW, where is the case study, the analysis, the 'what ever', which would/could show a causal link between allowing same-sex marriage and the incidence of polygamy?
(sarcasm)or is this yet another far fetched reach at implementing another scare tactic so as to dissuade/preclude intelligent discourse on the topic?(/sarcasm)
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| | | 496 | Khahan
ID: 13126822 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 00:25
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Out of curiosity, who besides the rightwing on this forum, has linked same-sex marriage with polygamy and on what hard facts is said link being put forth?
I consider myself rightwing and have not made that assertion, nor do I believe it. Don't let one extremist speak for all of us.
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| | | 497 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 09:35
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I was taught that minorities cannot discriminate against a majority group and that because of this, the term 'reverse discrimination' was coined to describe the effects of ideas such as quotas (when a minority group receives preference because of their minority status).
Maybe you professor should look up Apartheid, I do not think it is ever referred to as reverse discrimination. Discrimination can clearly go either way.
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| | | 498 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 09:48
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Out of curiosity, who besides the rightwing on this forum, has linked same-sex marriage with polygamy and on what hard facts is said link being put forth?
I have mentioned it several times and I am not rightwing, I think if you are going to discuss marriage you need to talk about all its forms. I just find it interesting how fast people run from polygamy but then say how the government should not interfere with who does what.
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| | | 499 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 10:27
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Sister Wives, a reality TV show about a polygamist family, is set in my town. There is no arranged marriage of young girls to older men involved. These are all consenting adults who appear to live peacefully and lawfully, except for the polygamous relationships.
I have no idea why a man would would choose to have multiple wives and hordes of children, any more than I can understand why a man would want to have sex with another man. Even though I don't understand it, gays and polygamists should have a right to choose the lifestyle in which they believe as long as the relationship is between consenting adults.
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| | | 500 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 11:11
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Totally agree (and this includes the proviso that wife #1 knows about wife #2 in advance of any arrangement, and vice-versa, which I assume it does.)
From a religious perspective, if their church allows it, I'm not one to say otherwise. And from a legal perspective, if we're endorsing some religions marriages and not others, that's a problem. And if we're separating the religious aspect out of government-sanctioned marriages, then it's really just a civil contract -- and why are we letting some sane, consenting, fully informed adults make those sorts of determinations and not others?
I'll preempt the "what's next, letting men marry 10 year olds" with a simple preemptive sigh and facepalm. If it isn't obvious why, I suppose I'll have to take the time to explain.
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| | | 501 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 11:33
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I think the "let them marry as many people as they want" argument is different from the "let them marry in the first place" one.
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| | | 502 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 11:44
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Why? (I assume for the sake of the discussion that Husband marries Wife #1, then Husband wants to marry Wife #2, that Wife #1 consents to Husband marrying Wife #2, and that Wife #2 consents and is aware of Husband's marriage to Wife #1.)
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| | | 503 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 11:47
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Polygamy carries all kinds of legal pitfalls. The biggest one I can think of is asset division when the husband dies. If there is no will, the law tells us where assets go. Multiple wives really screws this up in a big way.
There is also liability issues to consider. If a husband has a car accident and injures somebody and gets sued, in most states, the wife gets sued also and vice versa. But what happens if wife A gets sued for an auto accident? Does wife B share liability? How about civil liabilities? Taxes and dependants?
I'd say those are all legitmate concerns and questions to ask. Can they be resolved? Sure, but is it worth it to revamp parts of our court and tax system for the small minority of people who want polygamy?
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| | | 504 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 11:56
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#503: Ditto.
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| | | 505 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 12:08
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Other big issues with polygamy - who gets to choose the interior decorations? And does wife 1 go on wife 2's honeymoon? Think of the catfights over some of those issues for a few moments and you'll quickly realize why polygamy is a bad idea!! (yes its a joke)
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| | | 506 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 12:12
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is it worth it to revamp parts of our court and tax system for the small minority of people who want polygamy?
I suppose when you're facing felony charges, as Kody Brown possibly might, the answer would be yes, although I would argue that the tax break from over 10 dependents is rather egregious, but I feel the same way about traditional LDS families who flood the schools with 10 kids, and pay a lot less than I do with two in the system.
While we're on that subject, families at poverty level and below who feel the need to have 8-10 kids at taxpayer expense also contribute greatly to societal burden, not to mention single women who continue to have children, often from multiple fathers who are unable or unwilling to pay child support.
Yet, these situations aren't felonies, they're not even discouraged. Have another child, here's more support from the state.
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| | | 507 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 12:53
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Yes, there are some issues, but they are fairly easily resolved using our current definitions within the law regarding marriage. To put it simplistically, either you're married or you aren't. With that comes all the rights, and responsibilities.
(To briefly answer your questions, I'd say split assets equally; yes she's liable, but I can be persuaded otherwise; same as for whatever marriage confers as far as civil liabilities right now; and same as we currently do (for married filing jointly, make them all file on one tax return). I'd basically treat it as though all the intermingled parties are each individually married to each other (and yes this includes wife/wife combos through a husband) and they have all the legal rights and responsibilities that come with that. For tax purposes, either they marry jointly (and you can easily change the deductions if desired) or they file separately.
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| | | 508 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:10
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I would like to think that our government deterring polygamy is doing so in order to prevent the man from his own destruction. Two sets of in-laws, two people telling you what to do, etc.
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| | | 509 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:17
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I'd say split assets equally
But I (wife 1) had 3 kids with him and wife 2 only had 1 kid. That 3rd wife over there is just a gold digging harlot and has no kids with him. I should get more than just 50%. I've also been married longer.
yes she's liable, but I can be persuaded otherwise; same as for whatever marriage confers as far as civil liabilities right now
Husband has an auto policy with him and wife 1 on it. He marries wife 2 who has her own car. She adds him to her policy. He has an accident in wife 2's car. The injured 3rd party sues the car owner, which by extension also includes the husband in Pa. I can't see anyway in which wife 1 should be liable. Which opens up a major loophole in liabilities. So either wife 1 is unjustly held accountable or there is a major loophole to avoid liability.
Husband has his kid with wife 1 in wife 2's car and has an accident injuring the kid. Wow, even with over a decade of claims under my belt, thats a nightmare scenario with no clear cut answer.
For tax purposes, either they marry jointly (and you can easily change the deductions if desired) or they file separately..
This one *can* be made pretty clear cut. But again, it would involve an overhaul of our tax system. And that costs a lot money. How many hundreds of millions of dollars would be needed for congress to investigate this, come up with new definitions/filing interactions, reprint all new paperwork for employers, tax collectors etc. Its easy in conception, unbearable in reality. Just not worth it.
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| | | 510 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 13:19
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#508: Actually, the polygamist has the possibility of many, many mothers-in-law. Can you imagine, say, 8 M-I-L?
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| | | 511 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 14:22
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"I would like to think that our government deterring polygamy is doing so in order to prevent the man from his own destruction."
I know this was a joke (and, tbh, I did shudder at the thought of multiple MILs) -- but, for the most part, I hope we agree that it isn't. :)
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| | | 512 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 14:29
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" I can't see anyway in which wife 1 should be liable."
Why not? She's consented to the marriage, and all that entails. Perhaps the law extending liability to the spouse isn't very smart, but assuming you are OK with the husband being liable, why wouldn't you be OK with the other wife be?
What do you do if Husband is in Wife #2's car with the kid of wife #1 (since divorced) while kid is on parental visit?
Would you be OK with the lesbian (because all the bad drivers are women obviously -- smiley assumed) partner in a monogamous same-sex marriage being liable?
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| | | 513 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 14:38
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The overall point to this, by the way, is to not get caught up in the minutiae of exactly how things will get done. Most of these scenarios are reasonably well dealt with by current law (and have similar analogous situations right now). The more complicated ones can also be dealt with.
Basically, I would hope that "sorry, the forms we have now are too hard to change" would not be an adequate justification for denial of rights.
(And after all -- don't marriage certificates now have a spot for "husband" and "wife" -- oh no we'll have to change those forms too.)
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| | | 514 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 15:27
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Dwetzel,
I think you are oversimplifying a lot of problems to prove a point. Shared liability between a husband and wife stems from a sharing of assets. Distribution of wealth after a death comes from similar background. Taxes come from a shared household income between a husband and wife.
All of these scenarios are between 2 people, though. Adding a 3rd (or in some cases a 4th or 5th) person to the scenario is more complicated than you make it.
I can speak to the liability issues with some authority and I can assure you bringing an uninterested 3rd party into a suit is no simple matter. First, they aren't brought in by the plaintiff, but by the defendant (as a means to spread liability and thus any settlements). Second, the person being pulled in (the 1st wife in the case of the 2nd wife's vehicle) is going to file to be removed. The case itself will become a longer, more drawn out, more complicated matter.
Are we talking about a polygamist who has his whole family under 1 roof? They exist. And this situation may be a bit more simplistic to deal with.
Or are we talking about somebody who has wives in 2 or 3 locations? Again, a whole other kind of polygamy and a whole different scenario. How are assets divided? Does the husband have all properties in his name? Or is wife 1 and property 1 in their names, wife 2, property 2 in their names? Or are all 3 names on all properties? Or does wife 1 have her house and car just in her name and wife 2 have her house and car just in her name and the husband as no real assets (except for implied shared assets). In that case, how do you draw wife 1 into wife 2's claim?
Sorry but its NOT so simple and straight forward as you make it sound. You can give a quick answer to each of those scenarios, but then you have the actual facts of a loss to consider. Who was driving what car. Who were passengers. In the case of homeowners liability, who was there, who lists what as a primary, secondary residence. If you'd like I can go on and keep listing the common situations from which claims arise and let you try to map out how this situations should be handled depending on how people have assets divided up.
And thats just liability. What about divorce? What about the questions regarding other wealth distribution techniques?
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| | | 515 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 16:07
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Khakan,
I appreciate that the problems are more complicated. However, do you think they're actually insoluble, or just more complicated? If the latter, then I reiterate the bolded sentence of post 513. (Remember, we're operating on the assumption that all the parties are aware of each other's arrangements and are actively consenting to be a part of those arrangements -- so things like "you could become liable for my other wife's car accident if you become part of this family" and "I may have kids with this other man/woman and this could lessen your inheritance and increase your responsibilities".)
Where we are right now as far as things like marital asset division and insurance liabilities and that sort of thing wasn't exactly decided by five guys on a message board in two days of discussion. Nor, I suspect, has it been fully evolved even now to where we can say "yup, we've seen it all now".
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| | | 516 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 16:38
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More specifically (and I really don't intend to get dragged forever down the rabbit hole of minutiae here, but what the heck, it's a slow day, so for right now):
"I can speak to the liability issues with some authority and I can assure you bringing an uninterested 3rd party into a suit is no simple matter." I won't argue the point.
First, they aren't brought in by the plaintiff, but by the defendant (as a means to spread liability and thus any settlements).
Well, if they want to try to bring them in (and "uninterested party" isn't correct here, any more so than a husband would be "uninterested" in his wife's car crash), let them.
Second, the person being pulled in (the 1st wife in the case of the 2nd wife's vehicle) is going to file to be removed. The case itself will become a longer, more drawn out, more complicated matter.
Does the husband routinely file to be removed in the case of his wife's car crash? If so, does he have a leg to stand on? Same situation here, except one more potential person doing this that has to be removed or not removed as the law dictates.
I understand that there would be more paperwork involved here, potentially -- but this does not in and of itself make things significantly more complicated. More tedious? You betcha.
As for divorce? Sure, more complicated, simply because there are more interested parties. Simple enough answer is (for cases where community property would formerly have been divided evenly): divide community property X ways, where X is number of people intermarried. Give divorcee 1/x of that property. Beyond that, it's obviously evaluate every case on its merits, sort of as is done now. And there's a lot of stuff to work out and it WILL be messy. However, that's ultimately the problem of the parties directly involved, and their soon to be wealthy attorneys, and probably we'll have to pay a couple more family court judges to work this sort of thing out and to be paid for by the litigants anyway.
As for "wealth distribution techniques", I'm assuming you mean inheritances in cases where there is no will? Again, the simple answer is "if you would have given it all to one wife and nobody else, then give 1/x of it to each of X wives". If it was "give half to the wife and half to the kids, divided", then divide half among the wives (so if 3 wives, each gets 1/6) and half to the kids (however many there are). They may object that this isn't fair -- much as someone's first child may object that Daddy promised them the family business. The solution is to get a will (which is easy enough in either case for the attorneys) or to deal with an imperfect, if logical, solution.
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| | | 517 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Oct 25, 2010, 18:22
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Those who believe that plural marriage is the true and only path to heaven don't concern themselves much with earthly civil litigation among themselves.
But even if they do, being exposed to felony charges based on the doctrine they and their icons(Brigham Young University is right down the street)take literally, seems not just extreme, but a violation of the 1st amendment.
A lot of Mormons feel the Church betrayed its doctrine when the politicians traded condemnation of polygamy for statehood. That's why you never see polygamy prosecuted here unless in conjunction with other crimes like statutory rape or welfare fraud.
That's also why, after the initial buzz of publicity due to the Sister Wives TV show subsides, there will be no prosecution in this case either. Which is as it should be.
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| | | 519 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Nov 30, 2010, 18:11
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For some time now the GOP has been kicking the can of repealing DADT by claiming the military doesn't want to change the policy. Now that they have called for it to change, is anyone surprised that the GOP is now claiming we shouldn't "rush this through?"
Make the change. It is the right thing to do.
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| | | 520 | Tree, not at home
ID: 3910441615 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 16:14
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Breaking with her father, Barbara Bush voices support for gay marriage
"I'm Barbara Bush, and I'm a New Yorker for marriage equality," she says in a 22-second video released Monday by the Human Rights Campaign, a group that lobbies for equal treatment for gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgenders.
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| | | 521 | Boldwin
ID: 33122116 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 18:11
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Illinois just signed a civil union bill allowing gay civil unions. No link. Too disgusted to research it.
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| | | 522 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 18:15
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I anyone asks, you can just say "no" you know.
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| | | 523 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 18:51
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Illinois just signed a civil union bill allowing gay civil unions. No link. Too disgusted to research it.
it's so much easier to have gay sex outside of a relationship, isn't it?
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| | | 524 | Mith
ID: 371138719 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 19:57
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That's funny, B is on record in this forum in support of gay civil unions.
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| | | 525 | Boldwin
ID: 33122116 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 20:10
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I'm on record saying they're the least damaging of all the realistic outcomes. I doubt they're anything but a brief speedbump to fullbore Gomorrah. The officials doing the announcement said as much.
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| | | 526 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 20:22
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I was just reading a bit. It should be said that Illinois did not approve of gay marriage--merely a different level of recognized partnerships that same-sex couples can register for.
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| | | 527 | Boldwin
ID: 33122116 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 20:39
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Thus the term 'civil union' in my post rather than gay marriage.
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| | | 528 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 21:13
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You might not realize this, but I didn't object to your use of the term.
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| | | 529 | Mith
ID: 371138719 Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 22:35
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I'm on record saying they're the least damaging of all the realistic outcomes.
You're on record saying that getting government out of the marriage business and allowing civil unions for all is preferable to the system we have now. And I strongly agree with your record.
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| | | 531 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 17:34
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from the link in post 530 -
Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. sent a letter to Congress on Wednesday saying that the Justice Department will now take the position in court that the act should be struck down as a violation of same-sex couples’ rights to equal protection under the law.
“The president and I have concluded that classifications based on sexual orientation warrant heightened scrutiny and that, as applied to same-sex couples legally married under state law,” a crucial provision of the act is unconstitutional, Mr. Holder wrote. This is great news!
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| | | 532 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 18:06
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Good for Obama. I read in the article that he is still grappling with his own personal view of gay marriage. I have to say , I think Obama got this one right. Whether he thinks its morally right or wrong is irrelevant. The question raised is whether or not its legally right or wrong. Reversing that act is the proper thing to do.
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| | | 533 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Thu, Feb 24, 2011, 08:35
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I disagree with Obama on some issues, but vote for any President that would honestly make decisions on that criteria.
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| | | 534 | Boldwin
ID: 311532716 Sun, Feb 27, 2011, 17:54
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And the assault on marriage continues unabated.

Netherlands now weds a trio.
Mr Tombe waiting in line.
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| | | 535 | Nerveclinic
ID: 29123923 Sun, Mar 20, 2011, 10:25
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Majority of Americans now support gay marriage.
link
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| | | 536 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Mar 20, 2011, 12:51
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(awaits statement about tyranny of the majority blah blah)
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| | | 537 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, Mar 20, 2011, 13:17
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re 534....that was once upon a time, an option in this country as well. We now have laws specifically prohibiting polygamy. Strawman B.
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| | | 538 | Nerveclinic
ID: 29123923 Sun, Mar 20, 2011, 15:49
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It's not once upon a time here, you can have 4, and they do, and you can watch them parade around the mall.
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| | | 540 | Boldwin
ID: 16253251 Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 12:37
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Families with children flee San Francisco.
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| | | 541 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 12:52
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"It’s definitely not a hopeful sign that we have 5,000 less kids"
Certain it is a little more alarming than having 5000 fewer kids.
Wonder what parts were left of those 5000?
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| | | 542 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 13:31
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I am guessing you are suggesting some other cause, but I think it is mainly cost: it's an expensive town to live in. Doubly so with kids.
And with the full-court press to outsource last vestiges of middle class living wave jobs with union busting tactics, it will only get worse.
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| | | 543 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 13:51
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And with the full-court press to outsource last vestiges of middle class living wave jobs with union busting tactics, it will only get worse.
I will admit I don't know much about SF politics but I have to guess there is not much union busting going on there.
Can you even afford to live in SF with family if you are not making 6 figures?
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| | | 544 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 13:52
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The similarity between demands by African Americans and gays for rights is eerie. If this forum was suddenly transported into the 1960s I wonder if we'd be seeing posts about white flight from large cities as a result of blacks demanding their rights.
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| | | 545 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Fri, Mar 25, 2011, 13:59
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There certainly is union busting going in in Cali, though I don't know specifically about sf. I've been reading examples in the oc.
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| | | 547 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 10:27
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thanks for that PD - and this line is really what it's all about:
Indeed Christians and Catholics alike are well within their right to demand that holy matrimony, a sacrament and service performed by the Church and recognized by the Church, remains between a man and a woman as their faith would dictate. However, that has nothing to do with civil marriage, performed and recognized by the State in accordance with state law.
i think with a lot of social issues, once conservatives begin to actually observe and think for themselves, instead of following like sheep, they see people for what they are - just people.
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| | | 548 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 11:06
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It is not surprising that he would have his revelation in Atlanta he must have missed press released saying the Atlanta is one of most gay friendly cities in the nation.
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| | | 549 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 11:59
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Is that right? I hadn't realized that. I've only been in Atlanta a few times, never long enough to get a feel for the place.
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| | | 550 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 13:01
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I could not find the link for it but I had read a story about it last year some time, while the state may be very un-gay friendly, but Atlanta is.
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| | | 551 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 13:31
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of the 50 most populous cities in the US, Atlanta ranks 3rd - behind SF and Seattle - as the highest LGBT population per capita.
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| | | 552 | Tree
ID: 16329157 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 14:15
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Gay Teen Suicides (And Straight) More Common In Politically Conservative Areas
Suicide attempts by gay teens – and even straight kids – are more common in politically conservative areas where schools don't have programs supporting gay rights, a study involving nearly 32,000 high school students found.
while this shouldn't come as a surprise, it should come as a call for more understanding, equality, and help for our kids.
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| | | 553 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 16:58
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I can't quite put my finger on it Tree, but something about the interpretation of the findings or the methodology strikes me as very flawed here.
I would think this has more to do with urban vs suburban than anything else. The social atmosphere, the expectations etc.
While I don't doubt some of the data (for example, a much higher rate of suicide attempts by gay, lesbian or bisexual teens), the methodology of tying those results to a political affiliation seems way off.
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| | | 554 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 17:17
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For myself, I don't question the data, only the conclusion being made. The study clearly notes that teen suicide attempts (both gay and straight) are higher in certain areas. This doesn't mean that there is a difference between gay and straight teens in those areas.
The takeaway from the study should be that certain areas in Oregon have higher teen suicide rates, and that those areas have higher rates whether the teen is gay or not. This isn't about teen sexuality, but the ability of teens to get the support they need regardless of sexuality.
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| | | 555 | Tree
ID: 320371412 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 17:40
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This isn't about teen sexuality, but the ability of teens to get the support they need regardless of sexuality.
i think that's a reasonable conclusion. perhaps the headline was spun the way it was to make a bigger impact - but the draw between political lines is what i find interesting.
I would think this has more to do with urban vs suburban than anything else. The social atmosphere, the expectations etc.
i live in Fort Worth, Texas, one of the most right-leaning counties in the country. also, one of the most populous.
it's urban here, it's suburban here, it's rural here. we got it all.
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| | | 556 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 18:52
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but the draw between political lines is what i find interesting.
And thats what I find most suspect in the study as far as validity goes.
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| | | 557 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 23:11
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Isn't there a high correlation between urban/rural and left/right leanings? To say that conservative areas have a higher rate, seems to basically say the same as rural areas have a higher rate.
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| | | 558 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 23:19
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My gut tells me that the correlation between urban/rural and left/right leanings is there, frick. However, that does NOT mean that a correlation is based on political affiliation for suicide. There are simply too many other factors that are different between urban and rural/suburban living and schooling to legitimately say there is a correlation between suicides and left/right leaning.
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| | | 559 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 23:56
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There is almost certainly a correlation between more conservative/right leaning areas and poorly funded social services, which would explain the higher overall suicide rate.
I don't necessarily think it's a homosexuality-related event (though I think there's some aspect to it, especially in areas where the social services provided are primarily religious in nature, and kids are taught that it's "wrong" to have homosexual feelings).
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| | | 560 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 08:53
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There probably is a correlation, but you also have a difference of opinion on how to help people. In general, I would guess that more conservative areas would think that churches would be a resource for suicidal individuals. Sadly, the resources are not helpful for some individuals based on their needs.
What I find the most disappointing is the side that most often screams for freedom, only wants freedom as they see it. Not as true freedom for everyone to live in a manner that allows them to be happy.
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| | | 561 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 09:38
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Maybe it would be helpful to look at some more information before people start jumping to any kind conclusions about anything:
what is happening in Canada
more data
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| | | 563 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, May 15, 2011, 17:11
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Cons Republicans donating heavily in support of same-sex-marriage rights in New York
“I’m a pretty straight-down-the-line small-government guy,” said Mr. Asness, who described himself as a libertarian who favored less government intrusion in both markets and personal affairs. Mr. Asness, a frequent Republican donor, has praised Tea Party activists on his blog and last year attended a conference of right-leaning donors held by Charles and David Koch, among the leading conservative philanthropists in the nation.
“This is an issue of basic freedom,” Mr. Asness said. {emphasis added}
Pretty much what we Dems have been saying all along.
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| | | 566 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Thu, Jun 16, 2011, 09:53
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Good for him. Finally a politician doing what he feels is right for his constituents rather than what his party tells him they want. He wasn't elected by his party. He was elected by the people he is voting for.
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| | | 568 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 13:14
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money quote from your link PD:
"I think marriage should be between a man and a woman, but I don't have the right to prohibit others to have the right to get married," said Castro, 39. {emphasis added}
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| | | 569 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Mon, Jun 20, 2011, 13:15
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The money quote from that article, which in principle ought to hit the sweet spot for real conservatives who believe in keeping government out of people's lives, and not the fake ones interested in using government as their own morality police:
“I think marriage should be between a man and a woman, but I don’t have the right to prohibit others to have the right to get married,” said (Nelson) Castro, 39.
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| | | 570 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Fri, Jun 24, 2011, 18:44
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NY will be voting shortly to decide whether to make gay marriage legal.
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| | | 571 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 01:39
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And it passes, 33-29 in the NYS Senate.. GOP Senators specifically mention religious freedom language in the bill as the reason they voted aye.
Population wise, the number of gay Americans permitted to marry will double 30 days after Cuomo signs the bill into law.
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| | | 572 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:24
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this an amazing wonderful development, and another step toward equality for all Americans.
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| | | 573 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 23:09
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How much longer before conservatives abandon the GOP? Couldn't have happened without GOP turncoats.
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| | | 574 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 23:26
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The more people in the GOP start thinking for themselves, the better that party will be.
There is no better example of a communistic-like political party than the 2011 edition of the Republican party in the USA. It values party cohesion above all else (including policy ideas), punishes any dissent ruthlessly (even honestly offered alternatives), and requires its members to agree with the groupthink, even if the groupthink thought something else two years ago.
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| | | 575 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 00:49
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How much longer before conservatives abandon the GOP? Couldn't have happened without GOP turncoats.
No Boldwin. That is far, far from accurate. Despite people like you calling the GoP home, the GoP is NOT the party of bigots. Despite a loud and vocal minority, we do not sit and look down our noses at people who think differently from us. The GoP is the party of individual freedoms and smaller government. These guys got the Republican ideology right. Its not the governments place to invade people's private lives and deprive them of the ability or right to believe what they want. However, with the exclusionary language for religions to be protected, they also did not step on the toes of non-governmental institutions. All religions who hold that marriage is between a man and a woman only may still practice that way. No religion or religious institution is being forced to perform rituals which violate their principles.
To me, having a set of moral values and feeling so self-righteous about them that there is a driving need to shove them down the throats of everybody around you has has traditionally been a liberal point of view. But these days you find that mindset in both parties taking a very vocal front & center.
This vote says, "stay out of people's bedrooms, stay out of their homes" and it says, "our religious freedoms to believe what we want are still in tact." THAT is the Republican party that I grew up knowing. Not this hateful, "my way or the highway" culture its supposedly morphed into by people like you who think your personal conservative values should be shoved on everybody else. True conservative values do seek to enforce moral subjugation on others and it does not seek to have moral beliefs codified to the point of prying into personal lives. THAT is what conservatives have always been. No more hijacking the Republican name.
*incoming RINO rant*
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| | | 576 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 01:45
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There is no 'prying into other's personal lives' involved in identifying who is destroying the very meaning of family.
They identify themselves.
No one is 'morally subjugating gays'. They can bugger their way all the way up till Armageddon and no one suggests they be prevented from convicting themselves.
'They' won't be happy until the traditional family is as rare as common sense is now days.
'They' didn't used to be republicans.
As the Reagan democrats used to say, 'I didn't leave my party. My party left me'.
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| | | 577 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 08:52
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'They' won't be happy until the traditional family is as rare as common sense is now days.
Gays getting married doesn't affect "traditional families." It merely gives gays a means to have their shared commitments recognized by the state It is as simple as that.
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| | | 578 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 08:54
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HOORAY for New Yorks recent vote!!!!! Gays having legal property/familial rights, in no way diminishes any other standing marriage. Terribly selfish IMHO, to deny some other couple, the legal benefits you yourself enjoy as part of heterosexual marriage.
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| | | 579 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 09:13
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I don't begrudge them civil union benefits either.
Adoption rights, official approval, societies' plaudits...those are unthinkable. That every time this has been put to a demcratic vote it has been defeated even after a lifetime of media propaganda promoting it speaks volumes. Someday the number of people beyond all moral sense will reach critical mass, but not even now have we reached that point. Not even in the land of fruits and nuts.
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| | | 580 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 09:21
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They can bugger their way
Thank God homosexuals do not have the monopoly on buggery.
'They' won't be happy until the traditional family is as rare as common sense is now days.
that's a damned silly analogy. thinking that "traditional family" exists as it did in the days of June Cleaver is the epitome of a lack of common sense.
There is no 'prying into other's personal lives' involved in identifying who is destroying the very meaning of family.
what? husbands cheating on wives? wives cheating on husbands? men and women each divorcing their spouses in the blink of an eye - THAT, is what is destroying the meaning of family.
one of my favorite parts about this law passing is the part that allows religious institutions to maintain their religious views that a wedding is man and woman.
that takes a lot of the bite out of many a conservative argument, except for those want to want to mince words.
----------------
btw, not enough credit is being given to Khahan's 575. what a fantastic post.
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| | | 581 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 09:29
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575 - True conservative values do seek to enforce moral subjugation
should read:
True conservative values do not seek to enforce moral subjugation
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| | | 582 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 09:47
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btw, not enough credit is being given to Khahan's 575. what a fantastic post. - Tree
Oh I agree. I think Tree and Khahan make a wonderful pair.
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| | | 583 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 09:55
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In fact if they want to be best forum buddies, who am I to interfere? I think they should go for it.
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| | | 584 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 10:31
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If you were a conservative, you'd be content to exercise your personal religious bigotry personally, and not use government to impose it on others.
Let's not confuse religious nutjobbery with conservatism, please.
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| | | 585 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 10:47
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I just knew Dwetz would be peeved.
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| | | 586 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 11:24
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Conservatives are abandoning the GOP because of the reasons that you state Boldwin. Khahan's post shows what conservatives think, conservative does not equal religious.
Forcing your moral values on others does not fit the idea of small government.
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| | | 587 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 11:37
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He doesn't have a conservative bone in his body and I haven't forced or suggested we force gays to do anything.
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| | | 588 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 11:41
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No, but you are very outspoken about others are not allowed to do, based on your personal views. Their actions have no direct effect on you, yet you feel that you have the right to restrict their actions.
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| | | 589 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 11:47
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Yup, I do often get peeved at bigots trying to enforce their bigoted views on other people.
The real question is, why aren't you peeved about it? Sounds like that's something a conservative should be peeved about.
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| | | 590 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 12:20
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Frick/Khahan
You still don't get that I am not restricting them from anything but harming other people.
Yes I am for protecting kids from being adopted and having immorality forced down their throats. But other than that they can do bugger all. Throw a fancy wedding party. Both dress up as the bride, I could care less. Call themselves whatever they want.
Just don't stamp them morally upright exemplars in my name as in 'we the people' think what you are doing is great.
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| | | 591 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 12:28
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but harming other people.
There is no evidence that the kids raised by same-sex couples are harmed in any way. Perhaps you equate "more tolerant of others" with "being harmed" but I'd call that "getting Christ's message from an unexpected source."
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| | | 592 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:19
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Philosophically, I think opposition to gay marriage is clearly a conservative ideal. Conservatism is almost always opposed social change. Conservatives opposed Emancipation from slavery, women's suffrage, the pill, the Equal Rights Amendment and the Civil Rights Acts.
Republican = conservative and Democrat = liberal is only a relatively recent dichotomy in American political history. Prior to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, southern Democrats, who vehemently opposed it, were unquestionably social conservatives and, to a large extent abandoned the Democratic Party once it was signed by LBJ.
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| | | 593 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:24
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All things being equal, I would prefer for an adopted child to go to a M/F couple. I personally feel that a child benefits from having both a mother and father figure. But, if the M/M or F/F couple has a better social/economic status, I feel the child would be better with them.
And allowing gay marriage does not harm other people. Wait, that isn't quite true. It apparently does harm some people, like yourself Boldwin, in that you have some need to feel morally superior or better and allowing others to have equal rights harms you.
If your only argument against "but, think of the children" I think you need to take a step back and look at your opinion again. Guess what, homosexual people exist in the world, you likely have someone in your family or network of friends who is. To pretend that they don't exist or should be second class citizens goes against christian teachings and is a terrible life lesson for kids.
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| | | 594 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:30
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I don't pretend they don't exist and their status is very clear and unfavorable in the Bible. Like all unrepentant sinners they need to change. Period.
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| | | 595 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:35
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And telling kids it's OK to do the very thing that caused God to rain fire and sulfer on two 'gay magnet' towns is a terrible lesson.
Having fire and sulfer rain down on you will ruin your whole day.
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| | | 596 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:37
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2:3 hetero-sexual marriages end in divorce. no one denies that divorce, cause some degree of "harm" to children. So Boldy, since you are so concerned that gay parents will inevitably harm children and we know there is a 67% chance of heteros harming children, then we need to legislate that heteros can not adopt, bear children or in any way be granted responsibility for raising them.
Go ahead...accuse me of strawman. that isnt what it is. Its applying your "logic" to the flip side of the coin. Looking at "the big picture", something you are loathe to do.
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| | | 597 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:43
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If you want to criminalize divorce count me in.
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| | | 598 | Seattle Zen Leader
ID: 055343019 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:51
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Just don't stamp them morally upright exemplars in my name as in 'we the people' think what you are doing is great.
Since you are not of this world, why don't you let those of us who are make the correct moral choices. Yes, "we the people" think gay marriage is great. Go sit in a corner and wait for God's Kingdom and all that. We are not all that worried about fire and sulfur or frogs, for that matter.
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| | | 599 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 13:58
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Nevermind me. Worry about the majority everywhere it has ever been put to a democratic vote.
Those 'we the people'.
Just amazing that you can cram your immorality down the throat of the majority and then inveigh against 'imposing morality on others' with the same breath.
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| | | 600 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 14:02
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That's the problem with trying to legislate morality, or religion for that matter (which is exactly what we have in state-sanctioned marriage of any kind). Everyone believes their version is the one everyone else should adhere to.
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| | | 601 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 14:19
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Yup, and we face a rising tide of neopagan 'values' trying to turn the moral order on it's head. It isn't any less religious of a movement.
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| | | 602 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 14:28
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Blame Thomas Jefferson.
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| | | 603 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 14:33
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Blame him for what?
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| | | 604 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 14:36
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Your belief in a rising tide of neopagan 'values' trying to turn the moral order on it's head, which you think isn't any less religious of a movement.
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| | | 605 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 14:37
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I'm not saying you are wrong. I am asking you to be explicit.
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| | | 606 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 14:48
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His explanation of the establishment of religion clause in the 1st Amendment is not ambiguous. Confusing the protection of rights in a non-religious paradigm with the advancement of a "neo-pagan" agenda is your own failing.
And for the record, you forget rather easily that Jesus was just fine with rendering unto Caesar the things which were Caesar’s.
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| | | 607 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 15:00
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Traditional marriage has served civilization well forever. No religion needed to recognize that.
The government doesn't have a compelling reason to take our kids and teach them immoral pagan/and/or/secular humanist anti-family values behind our back.
Destroying the black family wasn't beneficial and destroying the rest of them isn't either.
No religion necessary to see that.
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| | | 608 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 15:17
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Traditional marriage has served civilization well forever.
This is not an argument for denying the same legal benefits to those whose personal bio-chemestry and perfectly legal persuit of happiness disqualify them from what you call traditional marriage.
You posed your arguments and their grounding philosophy in 594, 595, and 597. Don't pretend your agenda is anything different from having your specific versions of religion and morality legally imposed on the rest of us.
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| | | 609 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 15:36
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Don't pretend you aren't imposing your own religion on me.
Religious organizations are being forced to hire or retain gays.
Religious people are required to permit homosexuality in their own homes under their own roof if they rent.
Religious schools are at risk of heavy handed government intervention.
Churches will probably lose their tax exempt status if they retain their morality eventually as the gay lobby flexes it's muscle.
DCFS already takes a very prejudiced stance against religious families. School 'experts' plan on a very aggressive anti-family plan of their own.
The liberal hostility towards the family institution is well documented.
All these things will continue and accelerate now that the gay lobby has won this round.
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| | | 610 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 16:15
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Don't pretend you aren't imposing your own religion on me
I have no religion, even under your dubious "atheism is a religion too" meme. And neither does the protection of rights within a non-religious framework. The fact that that framework happens to butt against some of the rights-violating tenets of your religion is unfortunate for you but, as noted, the establishment of religion clause is not ambiguous.
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| | | 611 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 16:28
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It's not ambiguous but it is being violated in favor of secular humanists.
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| | | 612 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 16:34
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No B, gays are being given the same legal rights, nothing more, as any hetero has had for years. NOT in name of secular anything but in the simple name of "fairness".
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| | | 613 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 16:41
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In the name of 'anything goes'. Not much of a legal system left after you go all the way down that road. Or much civilization left.
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| | | 614 | sarge33rd
ID: 372291615 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 16:44
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*coughBScough*
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| | | 615 | Mith
ID: 5631099 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 16:54
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One thing I doubt I'll ever understand about the religious right's war on homosexuality is their harsh narrow focus on that particular group compared with other lifestyles which overtly reject other basic Christian principles.
And the arguments are so transparently weak. For example, whenever Christans are faced with the challenge that a forgiving god wouldn't punish humanity as seen in the Old Testament, they cite that the birth of Jesus ushered in the prophesied New Covenant.
But as plainly displayed in #595, B and other modern fundamentalist crusaders abruptly toss the New Covenant right out the window when we're talking about this particular sin.
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| | | 616 | Tree
ID: 60121615 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 17:26
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One thing I doubt I'll ever understand about the religious right's war on homosexuality is their harsh narrow focus on that particular group compared with other lifestyles which overtly reject other basic Christian principles.
to me, the big hypocrisy comes from the stance on multiple marriages - THAT is a bigger assault on "traditional families" than gay marriages.
but i doubt conservatives would speak up on that fact when many of their leaders treat marriage as a temporary thing, choosing to toss out a spouse when he or she is no longer useful.
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| | | 617 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 17:26
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You must think the new covenant allows a person to rationalize any ungodly behavior he or she wants to engage in, unrepentantly and stubbornly flout God's laws, and somehow God is required to forgive.
That wasn't Jesus message at all.
His ministry is summarized four times the following way:
"Repent for the Kingdom of God is near."
[ie repent, stop, feel remorse, change, obey]
Isrealites didn't get God's favor if they failed to follow the 'old' law covenant and christians who fail to put themselves under the 'new' law covenant don't benefit either.
Namely they either obey God because they want to [as opposed to the OT's legalist motivation], their consciences forcing them to do God's will. They actually listen and act on those consciences. They don't build a callussed conscience thru repeated rebellion against his will.
Or they don't have a relationship with God. He then tells them [in Jesus' words] "I never knew you. Get away from me you workers of lawlessness." He then casts them off with the rebellious goats to eternal destruction.
You don't get to Bart Simpson your way past God's stated will.
I'm not going to tell you 'good luck with that rationalization' because that would be contrary to God's will. Yeah God loves everyone enuff to give them all a chance to get into the ark. But if they don't obey, it's gonna be a looong swim.
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| | | 618 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 18:48
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Actually I think gay marriage is wrong. How's that fit into your world Boldwin? But as to why I think its wrong - marriage (at least to me) has always been a religious union. Traditionally the 3 major religons (christians, jews and muslims) all preach that homosexuality is wrong. Therefore, its very wrong for the government to tell religious insitutions that they must perform a gay marriage. Separation of church and state. Plus, the part of me that was raised Lutheran still has that in the back of my mind.
However, a civil union is a different label and wholly a legal union. No religion involved. There is just absolutely no reason at all that the government should take a religious outlook on marriage and apply it to a legal union that has nothing to do with religion. There is no legal basis to deny gay couples the same rights - tax rights, visitation rights, inheritance, wills etc.
As to homosexuals reconciling their being Christians and homosexual at the same time - none of my business. Thats for them and the church/ synagogue/mosque to work out.
And as for my own personal feelings on homosexuality - nobody elses business but my own. I still have not commented on what I personally think of it. Nor do I foresee myself doing so in this discussion because its irrelevant to basic rights and freedoms of the populace.
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| | | 619 | Tree
ID: 16329157 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 19:22
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You don't get to Bart Simpson your way past God's stated will.
interesting analogy, since the Simpsons are probably the current TV family most like the TV families of the 50s. intact family, mom, dad, three kids.
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| | | 620 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 19:22
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"Therefore, its very wrong for the government to tell religious insitutions that they must perform a gay marriage."
Just to nitpick, but I'm quite certain that that has not happened, and will not happen.
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| | | 621 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 19:35
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It's going to be worse than that. They are going to keep fining them until they don't dare even say from the pulpit that homosexuality is wrong or quote the Bible where it says so.
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| | | 622 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 19:38
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Perhaps that might happen in Boldwin fantasy hell. Here in reality, not so much.
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| | | 623 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:08
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It's happening in Colorado and this tactic/these types of laws have an older more extensive track record in Canada. Or in Sweden.In Sweden, Pastor Ake Green was sentenced to a month in prison for having offended homosexuals in a sermon. Pastor Green is in his 70’s. When a reporter asked: “ What about the Pastor’s rights?” The prosecutor replied: “When he started reading Bible verses about homosexuality, he crossed the line.” This gay activist legal mischief knows no borders.
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| | | 624 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:23
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Hmm. Well, since neither of those links you posted has anything to do with the passage you quoted, nor supports your contention, I'll assume you either posted the wrong link, or are making crap up like you usually do. Haven't decided which yet.
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| | | 625 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:25
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(By the way, the point at which the stuff you're afraid of happening actually really starts happening? You'll have my support. Until then, though... lol you.)
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| | | 627 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:29
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Christians are being fined many thousands of dollars in Canada under the same laws proposed and/or passed in various USA locations. The one in Colorado is passed into law currently.
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| | | 628 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:36
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I have no control at all over the laws in Canada, or Sweden.
As it is uncited, and merely a blurb, I can't comment on the specifics of the law in Sweden -- I will simply state that what a religious congregation wants to preach among each other within the confines of its church is no more of my business than the relationships of homosexuals is of yours. And that includes them not conducting gay marriages if they don't want to.
Now, when you start trying to make everyone else follow your particular religious views, simply because they're your religious views -- yup, I'm going to stand up against that bigotry (religiously induced or not, it's still bigotry, pure and simple).
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| | | 629 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:40
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Well I'm under command to spread the gospel everywhere, not just to the already converted so you aren't going to coral me as you suggest doing and as the Colorado law is inclined to do.
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| | | 630 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:46
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Well, then you have to suffer the backlash -- part of the consequences of your particular religion.
And, again, don't pretend to call it "conservative". Isn't imposing views on you what you always hate on those damn liberals for? Sucks when the shoe's on the other foot, doesn't it?
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| | | 631 | Tree
ID: 16329157 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:48
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It's happening in Colorado and this tactic/these types of laws have an older more extensive track record in Canada. Or in Sweden.
did you even actually read the link for Colorado!?!?! lol, it has ZERO to do with from the pulpit that homosexuality is wrong. it doesn't mention what they can or cannot say from the pulpit at all.
and as for your international examples, i'd recommend you don't move to either of those nations - and if we are going to follow suit with things they do there, you don't have much to worry about, because it will be generations until your fears come true - after all, we're only 45 years behind Canada in Universal Health Care, and 56 behind Sweden.
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| | | 632 | Canadian Hack
ID: 164132618 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:49
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Well I'm under command to spread the gospel everywhere
You are under command by your imaginary friend and you deride as being evil those who are under similar commands by different Muslim imaginary friends.
Baldwin step one is to understand how similar you and Osama bin Laden really were idealogically with different imaginary friends.
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| | | 633 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:52
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The speech crimes laws are already in the federal register. It's just up to the gay lobby to popularize using them.
Tribunals like Canada has would be harder to impliment here.
Yeah, paganism has a head start in Sweden.
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| | | 634 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:54
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"it doesn't mention what they can or cannot say from the pulpit at all. "
Actually, you're wrong Tree. It's much more laughable than that. It specifically mentions that the in-church statements are specifically exempted from the law.
But, of course, the law that says "you can do X" is directly supportive of people not being allowed to do X, in Boldwinian logic. (Truly, it's dizzying.)
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| | | 635 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:55
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Hack
Thanks for demonstrating some of the tactics in the link in #626.
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| | | 636 | Boldwin
ID: 22532522 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 20:58
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Dwetz
The wording of the law sets the stage for the tactic you tried, of arguing for first limiting the christian message to 'in-church-only'. Anywhere else, verbotten.
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| | | 637 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 21:20
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"sets the stage" = "I know the explicit wording directly contradicts what I'm saying, but I'm going to ignore that and instead use an imaginary boogeyman to attempt to convince you otherwise, even though you explicitly already said you won't support that extension", I assume, because otherwise you're just spewing nonsense.
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| | | 638 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 21:25
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I mean, I could just as easily say your condemnation of gay marriage sets the stage for you having them exterminated in gas chambers while you dance around their burning corpses. That would be just as accurate.
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| | | 639 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, Jun 26, 2011, 23:23
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You must think the new covenant allows a person to rationalize any ungodly behavior he or she wants to engage in, unrepentantly and stubbornly flout God's laws, and somehow God is required to forgive.
No. The point was that your reference to the OT as an example of Gods fierce hatred of homosexuality is disingenuous. Entire nations were wiped out simply because their ancestors squatted on the wrong land. Not a very rosy parallel with our national founding, is it? Though I trust you will eagerly rent to American citizens and see them employed by religious organizations.
The CO bill, as described by WND sounds unconstitutional to me. But from experience I know better than to take WND at it's word when it's stoking the Christian persecution complex. If I have time I'll look further into it.
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| | | 640 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 11:13
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"As described" is kinda the key.
That article, of course, is 3 years old. You'd have thought we'd have had reports of widespread roundups of ministers in Colorado by now. Outside the fevered (hopeful) imaginations of the martyr wanna-be's, anyway.
Here's the actual law (pdf)
The far religious right needs to stop making up crap as self-justifying for their own un-Christ-like behavior. Ironically, the more they can't distinguish between being dicks and practicing their religion, the more likely it is that they won't know how to practice their religion on its own.
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| | | 641 | Mith
ID: 44532710 Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 11:42
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Reading the WND piece again, I'm not sure that it violates the 1st Amendment as I initially thought. Here's the offending section: Section 8. 24-34-701. Publishing of discriminative matter forbidden. No person, being the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent, or employee of any place of public accommodation... shall publish, issue, circulate, send, distribute, give away, or display in any way, manner, or shape or by any means or method, except as provided in this section, any communication, paper, poster, folder, manuscript, book, pamphlet, writing, print, letter, notice, or advertisement of any kind, nature, or description THAT is intended or calculated to discriminate or actually discriminates against... SEXUAL ORIENTATION, marital status... in the matter of furnishing or neglecting or refusing to furnish to them or any one of them any lodging, housing, schooling, or tuition or any accommodation, right [marriage], privilege [adoption], advantage, or convenience... on account of... SEXUAL ORIENTATION, marital status... [which] is unwelcome or objectionable or not acceptable, desired, or solicited." Citing marriage (in brackets) as an example of protected right or accomodation in Colorado is typical of the disingenuous hyperbole we have come to rely on from WND. Colorado does not permit same sex marriage.
But I guess the first question I have to ask is what exactly is it you want religious organizations to be able to print or say that you believe would be prohibited by this.
A statement in opposition to proposed legislation for same-sex marriage shouldn't qualify as discriminatory, for example. And neither should stating it's opposition to such a law, should one be enacted. A statement instructing listeners or readers to refuse someone business or employment, based on sexual orientation, would be disriminatory, as would one providing information or tools with which to discriminate. Is that something you demand legal permission to do, Boldwin? It isn't good enough to just be able to tell the unconverted that your fundamentalist view of the Bible says it is wrong to do those things and explain why? You have to personally instruct them to discriminate?
I have yet to look beyond the WND piece. Maybe later.
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| | | 642 | Boldwin
ID: 47542289 Tue, Jun 28, 2011, 11:22
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They are clearly moving to make an accurate presentation of the Bible's view of homosexuality, a speech crime.
It's unquestionably on the agenda of 'the tolerant ones' globally.
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| | | 643 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Tue, Jun 28, 2011, 13:10
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and if by "unquestionably" you mean "not at all", you are 100 percent correct.
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| | | 644 | Boldwin
ID: 47542289 Tue, Jun 28, 2011, 19:40
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Exactly who is in who's bedroom?
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| | | 645 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Jul 20, 2011, 13:00
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Al Franken exchange with Focus on the Family rep.
When FOTF can't even get the definitions right, they kinda lose their moral authority. And their outrage seems more self-propelled than anything else.
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| | | 646 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 10:54
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Just as night follows day.
Pedophile advocates follow the same path to normalization that homosexuality took.The speakers urged the removal of pedophilia from the American Psychiatric Association's list of mental defects in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
Reisman explained the same strategy was used by homosexual activists in the 1970s when same-sex attractions were removed from the APA's list of disorders. Eventually, the legalization of "gay marriage," the mandatory homosexuality lessons in public schools and the brand new policy of allowing open homosexuality in the U.S. military resulted.
The recent event wasn't a meeting of minor unknowns.
"Dr. John Sadler (University of Texas) argued that diagnostic criteria for mental disorders should not be based on concepts of vice since such concepts are subject to shifting social attitudes and doing so diverts mental-health professions from their role as healers," the B4U-ACT organization said in a report about its symposium in Baltimore.
Another celebrity was Fred Berlin of Johns Hopkins who argued in favor of "acceptance of and compassion for people who are attracted to minors," the report continued.
The report pointedly referred to "minor-attracted people" in reference to pedophiles and explained that the concerns can be resolved with "accurate information." Richard Kramer, who represented B4U-ACT at the event, contended listing pedophilia as a disorder stigmatizes the "victims" of the lifestyle choice.
According to Barber, conference speakers said the Diagnostic Manual should "focus on the needs" of the pedophile and should have "a minimal focus on social control" rather than a focus on the "need to protect children." You read that correctly. 'Experts' are arguing [to the same body which caved to homosexual activist demands] that the pedophiles are the victims, stop protecting the children and start protecting the pedophiles.Barber said the symposium themes became clear quickly:
* Pedophiles are unfairly "demonized" in society.
* The concept of "wrong" should not be applied to "minor-attracted persons."
* "Children are not inherently unable to consent" to sex with an adult.
* "An adult's desire to have sex with children is 'normative.'"
* And the Diagnostic Manual "ignores that pedophiles 'have feelings of love and romance for children' the same way adult heterosexuals have for each other."
Barber noted that self-described "gay activist" and speaker Jacob Breslow said it is proper for children to be "the object of our attraction." Breslow said pedophiles shouldn't need to get consent from a child to have sex any more than they would get consent from a shoe to wear it, according to Barber. If you think your kids are no more than shoes for some pedophile to put on, move along, I guess. Nothing to see here. For people who care about kids tho, it is the last hour. Oppose it now while you still can. You'll be labelled a crazy pedophobe tomorrow.
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| | | 647 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 11:48
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B, while I will without hesitation; combat an effort to normalize/legalize adult-child sex.....let s be clear here. This was not the APA discussing the topic. It was a group of essentially NAMBLA supporters and their ilk, meeting and discussing amongst themselves, something they believe in. In that regard, it was little different from a group from NORML meeting, and discussing marijuana laws. (No, I am not drawing a moral equivalent so please dont take that road.) WNDs coverage here may be accurate and it may not, but they have attempted to make it sound as if the APA was discussing this. Just to be clear, the APA was NOT discussing this,
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| | | 648 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 12:27
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Pedophile advocates follow the same path to normalization that homosexuality took
So did women and blacks.
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| | | 649 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 15:42
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No, women and blacks didn't commandeer a scientific organization with decades of scientific experience understanding the causes and cures of blackness and gender, violently forcing them to abandon science for political correctness.
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| | | 650 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 15:46
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Neither did those folks in the article B. Those people were NOT from the APA and the APA had no official presence AT that gathering.
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| | | 651 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 15:48
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What organization is that? Vulcan Science Academy?
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| | | 652 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 16:18
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bili
The pedophile enablers at the event described are following the pattern radical gay activists used to force the APA to normalize homosexuality.
As I always assured you they would eventually.
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| | | 653 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 16:33
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Maybe, just maybe, being gay is normal.
You're committing a logical fallacy--just because the pedophiles are trying the same method doesn't mean that they are as right (or wrong) as others.
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| | | 654 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 16:48
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I still a big difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. Large enough that at this point, these guys are just grasping at straws.
Pedophilia is an actively enforced illegal act. Yes, homosexuality may have been illegal in some states, but when was this ever actively enforced?
Pedophilia also has victims in the equation that will continue to have people stand up for them.
Does it worry me that NAMBLA and its ilk are trying this? Yes. But that doesn't mean I think they are going to succeed. They have other obstacles in their way aside from public perception.
You can change public perception by changing the law. You can change the law by changing public perception. But for a situation like this,you almost have to do both at the same time and I just don't see that happening.
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| | | 655 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 17:30
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You can change public perception by changing the law. You can change the law by changing public perception. But for a situation like this,you almost have to do both at the same time and I just don't see that happening.
Entirely valid point there Khahan.
Let's play "Devils Advocate" for a moment or two, and lets assume that the APA ultimately came out someday and said "MAYBE, pedophilia isnt abnormal. It isnt entirely normal, but perhaps it isnt truly abnormal either."
OK...that is still going to be a FAR thing from legalizing the act. To legislate it, you need to convince Legislators that such is not going to cost them re-election. That means, you have to convince a large part of the populace, that such an act is "ok".
Well, a large part of the populace is comprised of parents and/or grandparents. (The vast majority of the populace in fact.) I do not see, but only a VERY, VERY, VERY small part of that populace, ever deciding it would be "ok", for one of their co-workers to treat one of their grandchildren sexually, as though the child had no more merit than a shoe.
Just aint gonna happen. Therefore, neither will the legislation allowing such conduct and therefore; you are getting yourself worked up over something that doesnt call for it.
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| | | 656 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 17:37
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Plus, quite obviously, you completely lose the libertarian-leaning crowd who thinks consenting adults ought to be left alone with their lives and not have faux-conservative Crusaders telling them how to live on a day to day basis.
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| | | 657 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:06
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What you just don't get is that they, the powers that be, the establishment, mean an entire overturning of the moral order.
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| | | 658 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:11
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No B, what YOU dont get, is that your entire premise is lacking any basis in fact but is instead, built upon a straw foundation of "the sky is falling".
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| | | 659 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:20
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Just as night follows day.
Pedophile advocates follow the same path to normalization that homosexuality took.
....What you just don't get is that they, the powers that be, the establishment, mean an entire overturning of the moral order.
sometimes your posts make me think someone removed your feeding tube years ago.
what YOU don't get, is that there is a world of difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. perhaps it's your own religion's history of being endorsing pedophilia that has you comparing two entirely different things, but perhaps it's more your bigoted stance toward homosexuals.
NEVER mind that WND and you are about 10 years too late on this. the APA discussed this very subject nearly a decade ago.
...the APA issued a statement on June 17 (2003) saying that "there are no plans or processes set up that would lead to the removal of the Paraphilias from their consideration as legitimate mental disorders."
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| | | 660 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:26
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I really should sue you, Tree.
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| | | 661 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:34
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For what? Attempting to enlighten?
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| | | 662 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:35
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there are no civil statutes that would allow you to sue someone for making your arguments look foolish.
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| | | 663 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 18:47
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CNS noted that Fred Berlin, founder of the Sexual Disorders Clinic at the Johns Hopkins University Hospital, said people who are sexually attracted to children should learn not to feel ashamed of their condition. It quoted him as saying, "I have no problem accepting the fact that someone, through no fault of his own, is attracted to children. But certainly, such an individual has a responsibility...not to act on it."
I found that to be an interesting thought process. Thinking about this topic, I mean genuinely reflecting upon it;
at 13-15 or so yrs of age; I too was sexually attracted to 14-16 yr old females;
at 16 and 17, I was attracted to 15-19 or so yr old females;
at 18-19 I was attracted to 16-22 yr old females. (or thereabouts).
IOW, as my age increased, so too did the age of females I found to be stimulating. Theorizing here, as I have absolutely ZERO training on the topic, but could pedophilia in fact be an arrested development state? We do not hold one who is mentally arrested at say 12 yrs of age, in disdain or disgust. We may indeed BE disgusted by some of the exhibited behaviors, but we do not out and out "blame" that individual. Recognizing that a difference exists, in that arresting of sexual development does not necessarily tie into arrested awareness of right-v-wrong, (since mental acuity continues to develop so too would accountability). IOW, it isnt the pedophilia which we should condemn. It is the concious/deliberate choice to ACT upon that pedophilia, which should be and is condemned.
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| | | 664 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 19:26
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For example, here a judge in England rules a christian couple with traditional moral values cannot foster children.A court ruling has found that Christians who want to provide foster care for needy children must promote homosexuality to them and that there is only a "qualified" right to exercise their Christian beliefs. And here an English court insists pedophiles' rights are more important than protecting children.
So don't kid yourself that it's too crazy to actually happen. Morality is outlawed. Perversion is given preference. It is actually happening around the world and the same tactics are being tried here.
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| | | 665 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 20:25
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Your reading comprehension skills (you got the sensationalist headline right though!) are severely lacking.
I mean, sure you're offended that Christianic equivalent of sharia law isn't implemented here but tough titties.
"It is important to realize that reliance upon religious belief, however conscientious the belief and however ancient and respectable the religion, can never of itself immunize the believer from the reach of the secular law. And invocation of religious belief does not necessarily provide a defense to what is otherwise a valid claim".
I'm sure you'd be all in favor of this exact statement if, say, some Muslim wanted to do something you didn't like. But, well, consistency tends to escape you when it comes to stuff like this.
(In before I get called a troll and threatened with a lawsuit because I point out obvious hypocrisy)
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| | | 666 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Fri, Aug 26, 2011, 21:15
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B, if you want to be SO concerned over judicial proceedings in England, might I suggest you move there?
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| | | 667 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:21
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I still a big difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. Large enough that at this point, these guys are just grasping at straws.
Does it worry me that NAMBLA and its ilk are trying this? Yes. But that doesn't mean I think they are going to succeed. They have other obstacles in their way aside from public perception.
You can change public perception by changing the law. You can change the law by changing public perception. But for a situation like this,you almost have to do both at the same time and I just don't see that happening. - Khahan
Did they have obstacles in 1970 when homosexuals took over the APA?
They just bulldozed right over public opinion. They still can hardly get a gay marriage bill past the public but that hasn't stopped them from indoctrinating your kids in school, railroading thru the courts and institutions. Shoving it in the face of a disapproving public at every opportunity.
And so it will go with pedophilia.
Their spotty early successes here and there prove it. [in UN international law even][yes Sarge it matters that they have already succeeded in England, they aren't 'grasping at straws' in England] Their already brazen acting on predictable tried and true tactics prove it.
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| | | 668 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:25
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Homosexuals took OVER the APA???? Are you certain? When did this happen?
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| | | 669 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:26
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and your constant harping, fear-mongering and efforts to cast all who see this world with a differing view from your own as being immoral, satanists bent on destruction...have grown more than wearisome.
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| | | 670 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:34
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They just bulldozed right over public opinion. They still can hardly get a gay marriage bill past the public
and once upon a time women couldn't vote and blacks had to ride in the back of the bus. fortunately, there will come a point in this country where gays can marry freely.
and, fortunately, there will never come a time in this country when pedophilia will be acceptable, and anyone who believes it will needs to have his or her head examined.
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| | | 671 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:35
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Equating the equality efforts of people who seek consensual relationships with other adults to similar efforts of people who would manipulate or force themselves on children is a non-starter. If you really think pedophilia can gain traction as socially or legally acceptable I suggest you hold you breath in anticipation.
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| | | 672 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:36
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and FTR B...Civil Rights and Womans Suffrage...was "thrown in the face of a disapproving public" for DECADES before that public finally did the right thing.,
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| | | 673 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:41
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I could list the outrageous conduct of homosexual radicals taking over APA conferences between 1970 and 1973 but here is a much more detailed inside look at how the takeover was accomplished from the homosexuals who did it.
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| | | 674 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 00:47
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I could list the outrageous conduct of homosexual female radicals taking over APA conferences between 1970 and 1973 1868 and 1920 but here is a much more detailed inside look at how the takeover was accomplished from the homosexuals women who did it.
or go back through and substitute blacks for women/females and then B...tell me how your stance is ANY different from those who opposed womens rights and /or civil rights?
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| | | 675 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 01:17
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Tell me how your stance will be any different when parents are criminalized for 'preventing their kids sexual rights'.
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| | | 676 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 01:30
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(A) Kids dont have sexual rights. If they did, the pedophiles would be 'right'. (B) I'm not the one who was recently up in arms and DEFENDING a pedophile in the TX case. (C) Quit hop-scotching around the question B. How is your position re hoomosexuals, ANY different, from the early majorities re Womens Rights and Civil Rights? {If you are unable to defend your stand vs those comparisons....do not be ashamed to admit you are wrong. You are wrong, but feel free to admit as much. It will do you some good...honestly.)
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| | | 677 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 01:55
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and, fortunately, there will never come a time in this country when pedophilia will be acceptable, and anyone who believes it will needs to have his or her head examined. - Tree
It's already a done deal.
The intellectual framework has been laid since the fifties.
Kinsey supporters have been doing a slow walk thru the institutions for many decades with many important institutional insiders in place.
With the world moving ever closer to globalism, the UN has been leaning almost exclusively on the great pervert Albert Kensey's SECUS for direction in setting international law in this area. They have dressed up pedophilia as a child rights issue. Not the right to be free from sexual abuse. The supposed child's right to sexual expression'.
Our own chief justice of the supreme court was picked because of his expertise in integrating our laws with international law. And someday we will be actually ruled by a world government and international law.
This is a done deal that has been performed right under your nose and you all are either buffaloed and in denial or in a case or two actually running cover and blowing smoke to enable it.
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| | | 678 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 01:56
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BS..like I said, we werent the ones recently up in arms and DEFENDIONG the pedophile in TX. That, FTR, was you.
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| | | 679 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 02:13
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The FDLS can practice their religion without underage marriage. Texas had to raise the age where parents can give consent to entrap them. Feel free to prosecute them where they don't follow that law. You will remember the Texas confiscation of every FDLS kid was overturned because Texas couldn't prove their case.
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| | | 680 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 02:30
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SC was, and may still be, 13 for age of consent. Would you call it entrapment if the state caught up to reality, and changed that?
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| | | 681 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 02:43
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and, fortunately, there will never come a time in this country when pedophilia will be acceptable, and anyone who believes it will needs to have his or her head examined. - Tree
It's already a done deal. - Baldwin
glad to see you're in therapy for your warped and sick ideas. maybe it'll help.
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| | | 682 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 11:55
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Sarge#650
It would depend on if it was transparently designed to coincide with the targeting of a specific group.
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| | | 683 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 12:24
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Yeah, the law in TX was designed to PROTECT the kids. You know, the targets of the [pedophile you have defended via your vilification of those charged with combating them.
Please B, either take a consistant stance, or openly admit that you flip-flop like a fish out of water, just so long as you get to oppose the COMMON good of mankind. Frankly, sounds more and more like the friggin anti-christ, than a Christian adherent.
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| | | 684 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 12:41
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The FLDS aren't pedophiles, they are bigamists. And you'll be all for celebrating that any day now too.
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| | | 685 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 12:51
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Warren Jeffs practised and encouraged pedophilia within the FLDS, if you consider pedophilia to involve sex with girls as young as 12 and 13. When parents of these young girls dared to protest(or the girls themselves) they were stripped of their property and exiled from the community.
Jeffs, however, is a Jim Jones type lunatic whose flock is not representative of mainstream Mormon polygamists, whose practise is among consenting adults.
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| | | 686 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 12:58
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TY PV. The FDLS is bigamist, yes. But Jeffs, *IS* a pedophile. Your staunch defense of his RIGHTS to engage in sexual activity with his 12, 13 and 14 yr old "brides", stands tall in defense of pedophiles everywhere. I'm sure they would all like to thank-you.
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| | | 687 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:09
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Point to anywhere I defended Jeffs. I did not.
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| | | 688 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:13
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And virtually all those 'underage pregnant girls' turned out to be not underage after all. Which is why Gov Perry and the DCFS is standing there empty-handed with egg on their faces.
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| | |
| | | 690 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:19
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Point to anywhere I defended Jeffs. I did not.
while i really don't want to go over the entire thread to find out where you defended Jeffs, i'll just post something I came across quickly where you defended pedophilia. . (bolding from your original post)
Another problem in these tallies is that the state is using a list which has been compiled of 20 minors and young women who conceived their first child between the ages of 13 and 16. The list includes women who had children ten or more years ago. For example, one woman was 13 when she conceived a child who was born in 1997! Another woman was 14 when she conceived a child born in 2000--eight years ago.Some of the women conceived children in other states, or before the change in Texas law regarding the age of consent.
yep, you're actually defending 13 and 14 year olds getting pregnant by older adult men.
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| | | 691 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:23
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No, Texas is free to seek prosecutions in those cases. They aren't free to convict the whole community and steal all the kids on some group guilt theory.
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| | | 692 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:28
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When "the group" hides facts, defends one another, acts AS a singular unit...the LE Officials have no option BUT to treat "the group" as a whole. There is no other way to do so, AND protect the integrity of the investigation.
Live with it B. You defended a pedophiles ability to practice his twisted wants.
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| | | 693 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:35
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I defended everyone's right not to have the government come in and steal an entire religion's children. The more hostile to religion that government becomes, the more important that will become.
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| | | 694 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:37
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And especially considering the outcome, Sarge and Tree defended an illegal seizure of an entire religion's children.
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| | | 695 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:41
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Yep. I'd prefer to commit my error, on the side of safety for the children, vs err on the side of continued pedophilia.
Hope you enjoyed your brief 'gotcha' moment.
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| | | 696 | sarge33rd
ID: 52744259 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:42
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oh and considering the outcome??? Jeffs got a life sentence. I am comfortable, that justice was served.
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| | | 697 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:52
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Sarge and Tree defended an illegal seizure of an entire religion's children.
nice try to twist the argue and to circumvent your defense of pedophiles, as long as they're doing their diddling in the name of Christ. you very clearly defended the rights of adult men to impregnate very young teenagers. there are no, ifs, and buts about that.
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| | | 698 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Sat, Aug 27, 2011, 13:53
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an illegal seizure of an entire religion's children.
That's not really what happened. Texas temporarily took custody of the FLDS chapter run by Jeffs. Maybe if authorities in Georgetown would have temporarily taken custody of the kids in Jonestown, there could have been a happier ending to that story.
While I originally protested the acts of authorities in Texas, especially since it was based on trumped up charges, I see Sarge's point that the "the group" hides facts, defends one another, acts AS a singular unit, leaving Texas authorities little room to protect these kids.
This case really has nothing to do with religion. Jeffs' interpretation of his position as the "saint" simply masked a man eager to use his position to satisfy his ferocious sexual desires.
Since Jeffs' imprisonment, the FLDS community has ceased the forced weddings of 12 to 15 year old girls to older men with prominent influence with the hierarchy.
Additionally, there was no seizure of an entire religion's children No children in the Utah/Arizona FLDS community, nor the Canadian FLDS community have been seized, but there has been accomodations made for those who wanted to leave on their own free will.
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| | | 699 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 14:26
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Yes I realize there were other enclaves, but Texas tried to take every last FLDS child within their borders and are still harrassing parents and [last I heard] forbidding them from leaving the heavy hand of Texas with their kids.
Yes Jeffs is creepy and a baneful influence. They are all better off that he is in prison. He personally is also quite credibly accused of abusing at least one male teen btw and I've never given him a pass on that either of course.
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| | | 700 | sarge33rd
ID: 407572813 Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 14:57
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TX responded to an anonymous allegation of child abuse, systemic and on co-operatively concealed, the best way it could B.
That response, resulted in the children being returned, but a further investigation being conducted. That further investigation, resulted in Jeff's life sentence.
The children were returned, the guilty party is locked up, and life goes on as best it can for all. I'd say the system worked fairly well. That you STILL decry the law enforcement and child protective measures...speaks VOLUMES as to your character.
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| | | 701 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 15:00
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Nevertheless, a pervert keeping a harem of young male & female children for his enjoyment isn't even close to the same thing as two same-sex people who want their commitment to be recognized.
Except, of course, that many on the Right are disgusted by both these scenarios.
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| | | 702 | Tree
ID: 52782814 Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 15:09
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Disgusted, all while defending the rights of adult men to impregnate 13 year old girls.
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| | | 703 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181 Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 16:27
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Sarge
TX knew the fraudulent psycho who made those phony allegations within 24 hours. You knew who did it because I posted it. TX went ahead with their illegal operation anyway because they had planned it for over a year. It wasn't a response to an allegation. That was just a pretext.
People employed by the TX DCFS were horrified beyond belief by the inhuman conduct of the DCFS both towards the kids and the mothers. Conduct that speaks volumes towards why the DCFS should be disbanded and replaced entirely, it is so far off course.
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| | | 704 | sarge33rd
ID: 497422816 Sun, Aug 28, 2011, 17:42
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You knew who did it because I posted it.
Sorry, but the fact that "you posted it", is nowhere close to sufficient reason for me to buy into it, lock, stock and barrel.
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| | | 705 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Oct 31, 2011, 18:49
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Kim Kardashian has filed for divorce from NBA "star" Kris Humphries after 42 days of marriage (and $17 million for the wedding, which is over 9k per hour that she was married).
Same sex marriage is really ruining the sanctity of the institution.....
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| | | 706 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Wed, Nov 30, 2011, 17:05
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there will come a time in history when we'll look back and be shocked that a speech like this even had to be made. but it is a moving, strong, and powerful sentiment to equality, and a message that should ring all across this nation.
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| | | 709 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Dec 22, 2011, 15:52
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Gay community apologizes to Amy Koch for ruining her marriage
Dear Ms. Koch,
On behalf of all gays and lesbians living in Minnesota, I would like to wholeheartedly apologize for our community's successful efforts to threaten your traditional marriage. We are ashamed of ourselves for causing you to have what the media refers to as an "illicit affair" with your staffer, and we also extend our deepest apologies to him and to his wife...
heh.
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| | |
| | | 712 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 18:46
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as Civil Rights and equality continue to progress. good for Jersey and Washington.
and an amen for Washington state Senator Steve Litzow (R-Mercer Island):
"I am a traditional Republican. When you think about gay marriage, it’s the right thing to do and it’s very consistent with the tenets of being a Republican — such as individual freedom and personal responsibility."
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| | | 713 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 19:47
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State Senator Litzow seems like a Republican who might actually remember the key principles of his party. Good for him of not bowing to the the radical right.
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| | | 714 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 22:10
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Indeed. Seems he does indeed desire to uphold the CLAIMED position of the GOP vs the soundbite positions from the radical elements.
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| | | 715 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 22:18
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You guys are obviously forgetting that Mercer Island is a hotbed of Marxist activity. How could anyone forget that Stanley Dunham moved his family there for the express reason that Obama's mother would be educated in a Marxist system?
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| | | 716 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Mon, Jan 09, 2012, 22:48
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Unfortunately, they were already counting on litzow. He is a fiscal conservative, but not a social one.
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| | | 717 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 10:04
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WA Governor changes mind, now supports gay marriage rights.
The last 45 seconds or so of that video, where she goes off script and seems to honestly respond to a question, is moving. I think many Americans are going through the same process on this issue.
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| | | 719 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Thu, Jan 12, 2012, 12:50
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slowly but surely, the political right is figuring out they are NOT right, on this particular issue.
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| | | 720 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 06:08
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I think many Americans are going through the same process on this issue
I think many RINO politicians are gathering the courage to vote against the people who brought them to the dance, their voters...and vote with the satanic power elite who pay for their campaigns.
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| | | 721 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 08:42
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satanic power elite
new BaldwinBuzzword for 2012?
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| | | 722 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 09:05
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the satanic power elite
This is great fodder for Comedy Central. Unfortunately for the author, it has absolutely no meaning in the real world.
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| | | 723 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jan 13, 2012, 10:47
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Because if there is one thing the satanic power elite want, it is that gays who make lifelong commitments to each other do so in a way recognized by the State.
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| | | 724 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 21:58
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New Jersey Judge convicts religion of violating... "The Law Against Discrimination makes it unlawful for the owner of ‘any place of public accommodation’ to refuse its use on the basis of sexual orientation or civil-union status.”
So already we see religions are being forced to hold homosexual ceremonies on religious facilities that contradict their religious beliefs. And this has been upheld in local court and is under appeal of course.
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| | | 725 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 22:08
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Meh. Nobody forced them, or any other religious group to hold a ceremony. The lawsuit was about the renting of facilities. No church member was forced to hold any ceremony.
So should a tax exempt group which rents its facilities to the public be required to abide by the state's non-discrimination law? That's really the question there. Too bad the article never asks it.
Nearly all of that article is about England, which, not surprisingly, is under neither the New Jersey or US Constitutions. A heck of a lot of filler...
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| | | 726 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 22:12
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What's next? They could force your church to allow a coven to draw pentagrams on your church grounds? If you can't see this as completely over the line you are blind.
And the anti-religious push is on internationally. The British experience is entirely germane.
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| | | 727 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 22:19
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And the anti-religious push is on internationally
Not in Egypt. Except by you maybe.
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| | | 728 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 23:00
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No, they can't force churches, etc etc.
You seem to decline to even ask the relevant question I raised in #725.
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| | | 729 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Mon, Jan 16, 2012, 23:08
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They could force your church to allow a coven to draw pentagrams on your church grounds?
because, of course, that's the same thing as a marriage ceremony.
If you can't see this as completely over the line you are blind.
exactly.
also, here's a more accurate report on the topic.
among things missing from the original article is this small detail - the judge’s decision now goes before the Director of the Division on Civil Rights, who has 45 days to adopt, modify or reject the ruling before it becomes final. An appeal of that final decision can be made to the Appellate Division of the Superior Court.
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| | | 730 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 00:01
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and of course, those who prefer hate over equality won't let evidence stand in the way, but there's some evidence Why Gay Parents May Be the Best Parents.
at the very least, there's no negative effect of gays adopting and raising children.
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| | | 731 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 04:01
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So should a tax exempt group which rents its facilities to the public be required to abide by the state's non-discrimination law?
How can you even question whether a religion has the right to 'discriminate' against that which violates their consciences?
dis·crim·i·nate/disˈkriməˌnāt/ Verb:
1. Recognize a distinction; differentiate. 2. Perceive or constitute the difference in or between.
Promoting the good, rejecting the bad is the definition of religion. [any religion that isn't deliberately satanic, that is]
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| | | 732 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 04:11
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Really, PD...you accept that Catholics should be forced to rent to a Planned Parenthood fundraiser? Synagogs and mosques be forced to allow the sale and promotion of pork on their property? Let's demand the ground zero mosque schedule regular dog shows. It's a community center, remember? Wanna demand christian broadcasters give equal time to the anti-religious perspective on their airtime?
What kind of wall of separation is it that you propose anyway, PD? What don't you get about the concept of 'hands off'?
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| | | 733 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 04:39
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PD
It's in your Bible just as it is in mine.
Douay:
Romans 12:2 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be reformed in the newness of your mind, that you may prove what is the good and the acceptable and the perfect will of God.
Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Hating that which is evil, cleaving to that which is good. --- Which does not translate into 'it's all good'...no matter how hard you try to avoid discriminating between the darkness and the light. And why would anyone who thot himself a christian?
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| | | 734 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 09:48
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Really, PD...you accept that Catholics should be forced to rent to a Planned Parenthood fundraiser? Synagogs and mosques be forced to allow the sale and promotion of pork on their property?
if legally, part of having tax-exempt status requires than they rent to all parties equally, than yes.
as the second, more complete link above pointed out, it was found that the association had broken its contract with the state by denying the couple access because the pavilion’s tax exempt status meant the group, so far as overseeing use of the pavilion, had to abide by the state’s anti-discrimination rules.
as for your examples, they are, as per usual the case with your examples, nonsensical, irrelevant, extreme, and over-the-top.
"pork sellers" are not a protected class. "dog show promoters" are not a protected class. homosexuals, and other groups that have been historically discriminated against, are.
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| | | 735 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 10:46
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Finally--you're asking the right question, Boldwin. Aren't things so much easier when you are't making crap up?
you accept that Catholics should be forced to rent to a Planned Parenthood fundraiser
I believe that church's should follow the law. If they are renting facilities to the public (or, holding things open to the public), they aren't able to then discriminate.
For example, a church which has a public bookstore cannot say "no blacks" even if they really truly believe blacks are the spawn of Satan.
Best way around it: Don't rent to the public. Or if you do, prohibit certain activities (like fundraisers, or marriage ceremonies) by anyone you rent to.
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| | | 736 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 11:04
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What if someone comes in and asks you to order 'The Turner Diaries' for them, should you be allowed to discriminate?
Should a religious bookstore be forced to sell The Satanic Bible by Anton Levay?
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| | | 737 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 11:06
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Even more basic. Should a religion obey laws that force them to violate God's law?
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| | | 738 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 11:34
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For example, a church which has a public bookstore cannot say "no blacks" even if they really truly believe blacks are the spawn of Satan.
this is not the same as choosing not to rent your facilities to planned parenthood. Choosing not rent to planned parenthood is more equivalent to no shirt, no shoes no service.
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| | | 739 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 11:41
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Perhaps--it is about public accommodation.
A church which doesn't rent its facilities out to the public doesn't face this problem, Boldwin.
And no, a bookstore isn't required to order a specific book for you.
Perhaps the whole issue of public accommodation is unclear for you, Boldwin. By these questions it seems you don't have a strong grasp on the concept.
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| | | 740 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 16:07
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"Even more basic. Should a religion obey laws that force them to violate God's law? "
Why should the public be forced to accept someone's particular version of God's law if it means breaking the actual law? Sure, right now it's just excluding homosexuals from renting your church, next thing you'll want is to be able to sacrifice virgins on a pentagram in the middle of the town square so that you can drink their blood and please the Sun God!*
Solution? Private, non-commercial dealings of your church, do whatever the heck you want. Public dealings, abide by public laws.
*This may be a wee bit of hyperbole on my part.
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| | | 741 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 17:30
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I'm not aware of any of God's laws which say to rent non-worship space only to non-gays. Must be one of those Old Testament rules, like not mixing fibers...
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| | | 742 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 21:10
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We don't promote, celebrate, condone homosexuality. No gay pride parades on church owned property either.
Where do you get off forcing religion to celebrate evil?
Honestly talking with you on this subject feels like Germany 1932.
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| | | 743 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 21:15
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I suppose you think that if a religious person makes signs he is required to make promotional material for a religion he does not want to promote.
Perhaps I should be required to put in a plug for secular humanism after I read you a scripture when I knock on your door. It's a public service after all.
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| | | 744 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 21:23
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Since you've taken on the case of celebrating soldiers pissing on God's children, I think you removed yourself from the evil/not evil judgeship some time ago...
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| | | 745 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 22:27
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Honestly talking with you on this subject feels like Germany 1932.
How so?
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| | | 746 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Tue, Jan 17, 2012, 22:40
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As for Germany 1932, B? YOU are the one taking a stance most like that at which you are derogatorily pointing.
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| | | 747 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 11:23
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We don't promote, celebrate, condone homosexuality.
you're speaking for...who?
are you speaking for the same "we" when you condone corpse desecration, praise criminals, and practice religious persecution?
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| | | 748 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 12:50
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PD
Tell it to your favorite abortionist.
PV and assorted trolls:
Worry more about desecrating religious grounds which grieve the living rather than the non-existent feelings of the dead.
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| | | 749 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 13:12
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Desecration of the dead, grieves the living B. It fuelsd their firey hatred of us, gives them more ammunition for recruiting against us, and results in more American lives lost. THAT is the simple truth which you deny in order to pursue your hate filled agenda.
Go away.
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| | | 750 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 14:05
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You must be under the impression I am pro-choice. Another fact invented whole cloth from lazy "thinking" which results in hatred.
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| | | 751 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 16:55
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Worry more about desecrating religious grounds which grieve the living rather than the non-existent feelings of the dead.
doesn't change the fact that you personally have come out in support of corpse desecration, praised criminals, and persecuted people for their religious beliefs.
if it makes you think that by calling people Trolls, your god will forgive you for these noteworthy beliefs, than i am happy for you.
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| | | 752 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 19:30
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Very humorous that you feel persecuted for your beliefs which no one here has any idea what they are, when you spend all your time reviling mine.
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| | | 753 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 19:42
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roflmfao B? None here knows? Seems to me, you are the ONLY one who claims to not know.
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| | | 754 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 19:47
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Rotflmao right back achya. If it's common knowledge what specific sect does he belong to?
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| | | 755 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 19:51
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What does it matter? The gist of his religion, is commonly known. Only you B, make issue of the specifics. Why, is beyond comprehension.
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| | | 756 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 20:32
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Why? Because the rubric, Jewish, encompasses sects which reject the rabinical traditions and follow only the Torah. There are Jews who reject the Torah and follow only the rabinical traditions.
Most importantly there are antinomian and gnostic Jewish traditions and sects which reject fixed moral laws, especially those of the God of Abraham.
There are sects which hold the most important religious figure is one or the other of Seth, Melchizedek, Cain, countless false messiahs who have come and gone that you have never heard of, Some guy from NY City, and there are Jews who consider Jesus [Yeshua] messiah.
There are Jews who are entirely wrapped up in magic and have no discernable connection with Jewish religious text.
If you think you know which strain Tree is, you are only fooling yourself.
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| | | 757 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 20:54
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I dont think it matters, one iota. YOU, are the only one who seems to think it does.
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| | | 758 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 21:06
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It would go a long way to explaining what would motivate someone to spend every spare moment of his life dedicated to vilifying and destroying one particular poster on the internet.
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| | | 759 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 22:09
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You do that to yourself. He, and a few otehrs of us, simply take a moment here and there, to point it out to you and others yet. It's you doing it, to yourself.
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| | | 760 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 22:38
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"It would go a long way to explaining what would motivate someone to spend every spare moment of his life dedicated to vilifying and destroying one particular poster on the internet."
Don't flatter yourself. I'm sure it takes but a small fraction of his spare time. Battles of wits with unarmed men rarely take long.
So, sine we're on the topic, what weird sect of cultism motivates your taking every moment of YOUR spare time to spread bilious hatred against everyone who disagrees with you, B? Do tell us all about it, hypocrite.
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| | | 761 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 23:14
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Very humorous that you feel persecuted for your beliefs which no one here has any idea what they are, when you spend all your time reviling mine.
not just my beliefs, but other religions as well. you persecute most who believe differently than you. as for your beliefs? they're your own. i don't revile yours - only those from your religious group who find child molestation acceptable.
If it's common knowledge what specific sect does he belong to?
Specific sect? wow. really? specific sect? lol. who uses that language? i've never heard any Jew describe him or herself as belonging to a "sect" (or a "strain", for that matter.)
If you think you know which strain Tree is, you are only fooling yourself.
if you think you know ANYTHING about Judaism, particularly modern Judaism, than you are fooling yourself. your rambling post above is so surface level, it's funny that you consider it a body of knowledge.
When's the last time you went to a synagogue? What service? What Parsha did they study that week? Was the Bimah in the middle of the congregation? at the front? were the men and women separated by a mechitza? were the woman allowed on the Bimah? could they touch the Torah? carry it? kiss it? dude, you don't know jack.
the joke is that if you put two jews in a room, you get three opinions.
the reality is that you can have a congregation - big or small - and you are going to find many different beliefs, many different customs, many different ways of prayer. and they are ever-evolving, down to the individual. even in a family, you'll find different beliefs.
i've got 4 brothers. you couldn't pigeonhole any of us into any single branch of Judaism. My religion doesn't work that way, and your persecution and nearly obsessive desire to know isn't going to change that.
get off the internet. stop reading whatever drivel you get your information from. go to a synagogue. go to a Mosque. Go to a church that is a branch of Christianity aside from your own.
learn something. it might do you some good.
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| | |
| | | 763 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 23:20
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And that got us not one scintilla closer to knowing anything specific about Tree's beliefs. Or his obsession with me.
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| | | 764 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Wed, Jan 18, 2012, 23:54
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Care to wager that she is acquitted, or charges are summarily dropped before it reaches final trial?
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| | | 765 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 00:45
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And that got us not one scintilla closer to knowing anything specific about Tree's beliefs. Or his obsession with me.
my obsession with you? ha.
your the one badgering me for minute details on my beliefs, even after the concept has been explained to you.
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| | | 766 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 02:09
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even after the concept has been explained to you.
I'm not interested in your 'mechitza'.
I'm interested in why you advocate vigorously against the God of Abraham and his moral positions. So much so that someone who agrees with him becomes your great white whale, Cap'n Ahab.
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| | | 767 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 08:40
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I think this is a good time to remind nearly everybody who posted in say the past 2 days in this thread to read the forums rules of conduct and refer you all back to this thread.
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| | | 768 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 10:00
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I'm not interested in your 'mechitza'.
exactly. you honestly don't care what my beliefs are.
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| | | 769 | Tree
ID: 41512710 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 10:03
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I'm interested in why you advocate vigorously against the God of Abraham and his moral positions.
i see stuff like this, and it makes me want to rethink my position on gun ownership and ensure that religious zealots do not have access. pretty scary stuff.
So much so that someone who agrees with him becomes your great white whale, Cap'n Ahab.
don't flatter yourself. you could drop off the face of the earth, and it wouldn't bother me in the least. despite your own hubris, you're simply not that important to me.
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| | | 770 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 10:12
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Re: 767 -- a valid point.
However, given that the enforced standard has been that it's OK to call me a troll every second post, even when I'm not participating in conversation, and even when I've specifically sent multiple emails in the past saying "this is a personal insult, please delete it when you see it", I assume that the sentiments expressed therein were a lie.
So, fight fire with fire.
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| | | 771 | bibA
ID: 4057177 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 11:55
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fight fire with fire
He has been called out for letting militant Muslims influence his standards. Aren't you doing the same?
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| | | 772 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 11:57
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Dwetzel,
787 was not directed at you or any one person in particular. It was directed at the whole tenor of the conversation. There are a only a small handful of posts which are not direct insults and anybody and everybody involved can at any point say, "its not worth it. I don't need to respond."
I myself have had multiple posts typed out in this thread over the past 3-4 days only to simply delete it.
If you (generic 'you' for anybody here) want to point out a particular post that you find offensive and feel should be removed but don't want to bother guru, my email is right here.
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| | | 773 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:14
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#771: Exactly. Letting Boldwin rile you up into being offensive is just silly. Not worth it. And hardly an efficient use of time.
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| | | 774 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:28
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#771: Exactly. Letting Boldwin rile you up into being offensive
I didn't even respond to Dwetz provocations one time. How do I get accused of riling him up?
And asking Tree who has hounded me relentlessly for years to simply lay his cards on the table, is also in no way unreasonable or provocative, truth be told. I'm just asking for basic fair play.
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| | | 775 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:41
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No you aren't. You're looking for justification for the escalation.
Its all self-referential.
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| | | 776 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 12:55
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How is asking the same simple fair request I have always asked from him, an escalation?
Can you imagine any other situation where a troll would be allowed to:
1) never post anything interesting or new
2) Virtually never post anything that wasn't a low-brow attack on one specific poster
3) but then be allowed to not reveal where he was coming from
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| | | 777 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 13:00
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We typically don't label posters as trolls. Maybe that's where your problem lies...
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| | | 778 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 13:05
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It is what it is.
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| | | 779 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 14:49
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776: Look in the damn mirror, except that I concede that you broaden your horizons and attack a range of posters.
When EVERYONE is telling you this, maybe you actually ARE the problem.
Once again, you think it's fair to badger Tree about it. I asked the same of you. Why haven't you done it, if you think someone else should have to? Is it because you just want an excuse to make another Jew-baiting comment like you frequently slip into conversation? Or is it just because you're a massive steaming hypocrite? Man up if you think it's the right thing to do and set an example. (Personally, I really don't give a flying **** what religion someone else is, but if you make an issue out of it constantly, you should at the very least hold yourself to the same standard.)
771 and 772: I get it. But, I've got three choices, and the officially sanctioned one isn't working:
1. Report the posts using the pretty highlighted yellow email. Result: Sometimes a post gets deleted, sometimes not, and the next day I would have to do the same thing again because the same insult gets hurled again and again and again. I refuse to embed myself in freakin' Groundhog Day. It's as unacceptable to call someone a troll the 897th time it's done as the first 896 times, I shouldn't have to send another email. The moderators are here, engaged in the discussion every day, so they see them and apparently think "gee, I guess he didn't send me an email about THAT instance, but he did send it about the other two instances -- clearly, this time it must be perfectly OK?". What the hell kind of crappy standard is that? There are no consequences; by the time I have to do their jobs for them, the damage is done. By their (inactions), they don't care if I have to deal with the insults over and over and over again.
Why should I keep beating my head against the same wall for over a year and expect different results?
Here's a simple, easy to implement, explicit request that I will make one, last time: PROACTIVELY delete posts insulting other posters, without waiting for the insult to be read and complained about by the insultee. We get it, you have lives, you can't do anything about it ALL the time. But there's a gulf of difference between that and "I don't care what's said unless someone sends me an email about it."
2. Go with the flow, and fire when fired upon. I've decided to do this. Don't like it? Do something about the provocative behavior. I can have perfectly normal conversations with anyone else on here. So can everyone else that gets labeled a troll every third post. 95% of your problems are caused by one poster. Do something about it, and things instantly become reasonable again. Don't, and deal with the consequences.
3. Leave. I've toyed with this a few times. I suppose it's out of pure stubbornness that I refuse to let one piece of garbage drive me from a place that I otherwise rather enjoy. But I admit that the battle is being lost.
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| | | 780 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 15:00
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And, to respond a bit more clearly to 772:
I agree that it wasn't personal. However, that's how far things have gone that everyone feels the need to engage in this way -- because there's nothing else left.
If you have the power to stop someone from randomly insulting others (see, for instance, post 748, which takes the tenor of the entire conversation down a bunch and started us down this train in the first place, along with Boldwin repeatedly badgering Tree about his religious beliefs), then for Chrissakes DO it, just don't talk about it. And be consistent about it.
If you don't, then push the people that do have that power to do it.
The bottom line: At this point, my experience, as distinct from "stated protocol" as a forum user is: "the powers that be think it's A-OK to let someone repeatedly insult me and others by calling them trolls, despite my repeated specific requests to put a stop to it."
If you think that's the way it should be, we disagree.
If you think that's not the way it should be, and you have power to do something about it, then you're part of the problem.
If you think that's not the way it should be, but you don't have the power to do something about it, I guess you have the same range of options as I do.
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| | | 781 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 15:18
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The one thing that really has amazed me: I understand the Alinski tactic going on, "According to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer is to bait an opponent into reacting. "The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength." - wiki What blows me away is that this works even when I don't react.
1) They relentlessly go over the top provoking and slandering me.
2) If I don't react, they carry on as if I had reacted just as they had hoped, like anyone would naturally react to slander and extreme provocation.
3) Their allies just assume I must have because they now hear the hysterical complaints about my reaction.And I still haven't spoken to Dwetz in this thread since Jun 26 of last year, but look at him carrying on in #779.
I ignore Tree 4/5 of the time. How often do you think I respond to his sidekick?
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| | | 782 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 15:29
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Liar.
I posted in the thread in post 740, which I think was both clearly within the bounds of civility and disagreed with your point. In the intervening and surrounding posts, NOTHING remotely uncivil was said.
In post 748, less than 24 hours later, you said:
"PV and assorted trolls:
Worry more about desecrating religious grounds which grieve the living rather than the non-existent feelings of the dead."
If this is not an unprovoked, personal, and uncivil attack on the people disagreeing with your beliefs, then WTF is it?
In short, you're flat out lying when you say that a) you were remotely provoked, and b) that you don't react. There's no other word than "lying", because that's what it is when you are intentionally misrepresenting plain facts. And, if you deny repeatedly and frequently calling those who disagree with you trolls on this forum, you are again lying. The posts are there, in plain view. It's consistently YOU who escalates these things, as you did in this instance. And yet you have the audacity to bitch and moan about being the VICTIM in this? What a disgrace.
I suppose you will now bitch about having some evil troll call you a liar. Hopefully the people in charge will take your lies for what they are.
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| | | 783 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 15:49
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Dwetzel - post 779: there is a 4th option which is just don't respond to Boldwin.
As for 'sometimes posts get deleted, sometimes not' its been MONTHS since I've deleted a post. I do not want to make a habit of it. For one, it takes a LOT to offend me. I personally have a very high threshold for that. For 2, I just don't think its conducive to the freeflow of ideas in a discussion forum. However, the current degradation of this topic is also not conducive.
But if I were to start deleting posts in this case I'd probably just go back to somewhere around 740-745 and delete everything from there out. There's a very few posts since then that are not (at the very least) thinly veiled insults or worse. The ones that aren't would simply make no sense.
Also, what about posts like 742? the first 2 questions are legit, the 3rd one is calling people here nazi's. Do I delete the whole post or edit it? Which is worse? So there are good reasons you see inconsistent results.
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| | | 784 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Thu, Jan 19, 2012, 17:05
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There's never a good reason for inconsistent results. I concede that there are gray areas. I also concede that different moderators will have different standards.
Regardless, posts like 748 are so clearly over the line that I'd expect anyone with the power to edit or delete them to do so without prompting. Especially given that a forum user has made specific complaints about exactly the same insult in the past, and asked that future instances be preemptively deleted too. If you don't do that, to my mind, you're consciously ignoring the request.
Do you see my point that deleting an insult BEFORE the intended victim sees that insult is infinitely more effective than deleting it after the fact? If you delete it after the fact, it's already accomplished its goal (to insult and inflame); you're just sort of covering up the evidence.
Point taken re: not responding, but in response I'd say that when you (as someone who doesn't usually delete anything) feel the need to delete a good 30-40 posts because the discussion has gone to crap, and you have at least five people all getting dragged into it, I'd say that maybe it's a pretty normal human reaction to respond. or just leave the boards and not return, I guess -- but that's not exactly good for business either.
The forum standard (as promulgated by your "boss", Guru) has been that if it violates the rules in small part, the whole thing gets zapped. I personally disagree with that, especially given the *ahem* archaic setup of this message board, but, in my opinion:
editing > deleting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not doing anything because you aren't sure what to do.
(And yes, thinly veiled attempts at calling other people Nazis is probably just a wee bit over the line too. Saying stuff like that, and then saying you're completely innocent of any wrongdoing, is obviously complete crap, I hope you'll agree.)
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| | | 787 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 17:47
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saw that too Tree. And on Yahoo, in the comments section, I found this absiolute sterling gem:
"Here's one Christian Minister's take on the issue:
The group is wrong.
All I know is that it takes all of my time and energy to keep myself living a righteous life. I am not tempted by the same things today in old age that tempted me in my youth, but - still - some days I do better than others. It takes constant prayer.
All I know is my faith is not arrogant, but humbled. Imperfect person that I am - continuing to grow in grace - Christ still loves me. How can I not love and encourage others whatever their battles?
To follow Christ, you must have a servant's spirit. This group missed that part of the scripture.
Last thing...Some pick and choose things to condemn depending on their audience. As for me, I simply preach the word. Then I remind my audience that "All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory." When we remember that...it fills us with love and mercy towards others.
Everyone have a great day...let's be kind and respectful to each other."
{BLATANTLY COPY/PASTED, W/O PERMISSION}
words to live by right there.
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| | | 788 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 21:34
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This disputes the one stable thing I thot existed among some gays. I really thot in general that lesbian relationships were more stable than male gay relationships.
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| | | 789 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 21:55
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having a ton of gay friends, i would have gone with stability on the gay men over the gay women...
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| | | 790 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 21:56
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Why would they be? The one commonality amongst ALL relationships, is that fallible human beings are involved.
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| | | 791 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 22:07
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Promiscuity, if for no other reason. Believe it or not I think I got that impression from a gay male who believed lesbian relationships were more stable.
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| | | 792 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 22:19
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They are. I don't know why you'd think otherwise, tree.
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| | | 793 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 01:15
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Promiscuity, if for no other reason.
being gay does not equal promiscuity. a married couple is a married couple. i HATE this stereotype about gay men. it's lame.
They are. I don't know why you'd think otherwise, tree.
because at the gay clubs here, the men go home happy at closing time, and the women always seem to be raising a ruckus and causing chaos.
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| | | 794 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 10:42
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because at the gay clubs here, the men go home happy at closing time
That's cause they already did three or four round trips on their motorcycle and their exhausted at closing time.

Two men on a horse; mysteries revealed, no charge.
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| | | 795 | Tree
ID: 4610711 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 12:01
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That's cause they already did three or four round trips on their motorcycle and their exhausted at closing time.
nah. they weren't at your church. they were at a dance club, homophobe.
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| | | 796 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 13:24
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CA Supreme Court rules Prop 8 unconstitutional--civil rights should not be subject to a popular vote.
PDF of the ruling.
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| | | 797 | Tree
ID: 27130712 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 13:31
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amen. another victory for civil rights and equality.
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| | | 798 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 13:31
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^5 to the CA Courts
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| | | 799 | Myboyjack
ID: 36452617 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 21:25
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PD - That's the 9th Circuit CofA not CA Supreme Court. Usually, pretty safe to bet against the 9th in cases that Scotus takes up.
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| | | 800 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 21:36
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You know, I just realized that about 10 minutes ago when I was reading something else. Thanks for the correction.
I was reading that the ruling was crafted in a way in which SCOTUS might very easily not take it up, per this Burroway column, since it seems to be somewhat self-limiting in its scope. I read somewhere else (not sure, sorry) that the ruling was written with an audience of one in mind: Justice Kennedy.
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| | | 802 | Tree
ID: 27121319 Mon, Feb 13, 2012, 20:07
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Washington, New Jersey move toward same-sex marriage
two more states move toward equality, as the hate-mongers line up and vow to fight.
Washington Governor Chris Gregoire put it quite well.
"We have finally said yes to marriage equality," Gregoire said to applause moments before signing the bill. "It gives same-sex couples the same right to a marriage license as heterosexual couples."
She noted that churches are not required to perform same-sex marriages under the law...
to me, that is key. no one is forcing a church to perform a service they don't want to, and rightfully so. What that church does in the privacy of its sanctuary is up to that church.
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| | | 803 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 01:18
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Bet it requires me if I was a photographer, to snap up an album full of gay celebration, against my religious convictions.
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| | | 804 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 01:34
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Bet it requires me if I was a photographer, to snap up an album full of gay celebration, against my religious convictions.
you'd lose that bet.
last time i checked, wedding parties hired their own photographers. if you don't want to shoot a gay marriage, you don't have to go work for the happy couple.
they don't employ a bigot, and you miss out on a pay day. the only there who loses, is you.
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| | | 805 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 01:40
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I heard that argument on NPR today. I didn't understand it, however. In general, though political entities go further, I was lead to believe people could not discriminate based on race or gender or religion, but sexual orientation was not included in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, nor supplemented in The CRA of 1991.
As far as I understand, that photographer is wrong, but unfortunately Steve Scher neither corrected him nor explained why what he supposed was correct actually was. Can anyone educate me on this?
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| | | 806 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 01:56
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I have no idea why a bigoted photographer would believe he has to take such a job. He doesn't. Certainly if he was required under the law, there would be a boatload of Right-minded lawyers eager to take up his case and plaster his tearful, shocked face all over FOX. The indignity of having to face up to his own bigotry and photograph it for others!
There is no such law, and recent same-sex marriage laws have all included conscience clauses.
Another urban legend of the right, propagated in lieu of a coherent policy in this area. Clearly the Far Right are in defensive mode on this issue and have been for a couple of year now.
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| | | 807 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 09:22
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Certainly if he was required under the law, there would be a boatload of Right-minded lawyers eager to take up his case...
heck, the ACLU would take up his case. if i were a lawyer that specialized in civil rights, i'd take up his case.
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| | | 808 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 16:47
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Nope, every professional will be forced to celebrate perversion.
Innkeepers
Photographers
DJ's and Florists
Tux rentals, stationary...the guy who inscribes your 'wedding band', they will all have homosexuality shoved down their throat. Because you just can't tolerate the tiniest deviation in values away from the party line.
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| | | 809 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 16:53
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Whether you really wanna eat that wedding cake you extorted out of someone against their will is another matter entirely.
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| | | 810 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 16:59
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The first isn't from this country.
The second one ( pdf of the NM HRC here) was a horrible decision, but has not yet been settled as a matter of law. The defendant was entirely correct, IMO, that her actions was not a public accommodation and she should prevail in this case. Just because the NM HRC commission mis-states the law (which exempts private interactions) doesn't mean the law isn't clear.
The third I don't know much about, except that mu understanding is that a court has yet to weigh in on this.
Relying on administrative responses is going to get you into trouble.
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| | | 811 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 17:07
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I am not sure of details, but photographer story seems made up, I hope that is not true or it is not simple. Because of the idea that someone can be sued for saying I don't want to take a job seems really terrible. It one thing if you have public business where the business comes to you but it is totally different if you have to go to them to do the work.
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| | | 812 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 17:22
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The first isn't from this country - PD, professional reader
The first describes a lawsuit against an Inn in Vermont.
There can be no question that they are at war with people of conscience and morality. They cannot allow anyone to be free.
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| | | 813 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 17:37
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"There can be no question that they are at war with people of conscience and morality. They cannot allow anyone to be free. "
And you accuse us of being the trolls.
If being at war with bigots is wrong, then no, I don't want to be right.
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| | | 814 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 20:14
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I was listening to a podcast today and they were talking about Prop 8 and not allowing the tyranny of the majority. Prop 8 was designed to discriminate against a portion of the population and should be illegal.
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| | | 815 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 20:32
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Well, yeah, obviously.
This is basically the clearest situation you could ever use the word "bigot" and be on completely comfortable ground. I know you all get wound up about that word, but in this situation if nowhere else it applies correctly and succinctly.
You have people (these would be the bigots) advocating a law that says one group of people should be treated worse than another group of people by their government, solely on the basis of their sexual orientation.
That's all it is, plainly and simply -- it is the very definition of active bigotry. Not the stupid "oh, my gawrsh, you're going to make our church allow gay orgies on the altar" crap that will inevitably be thrown out and then laughed at by people with a brain.
And if we can't talk about that for what it is, it just lends credibility to the bigots that don't deserve the dignity.
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| | | 816 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Tue, Feb 14, 2012, 22:22
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The Innkeeper will probably lose. A room to rent, is a public accomodation and there is most likely, going to be little "wiggle room" for personal belief. What if the owner doesnt want to rent a room to a black coulkle, or a mixed race couple? That can not be allowed.
The photographer and the DJ, will most likely win their cases. As an independent contractor, I dont have to take any job I dont want to. I dont even need to give a reason, I can just decline.
The florist, is going to be interesting. A public business, but as a decorator (an independent contractor), am I obliged to perform professionally, where I do not want to? I think they too, will win thier case.
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| | | 817 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 02:43
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You are all missing the point.
They have already demonstrated that they won't be satisfied until they present everyone with the ultimatum: "accept our religious views, join in the gay pride parade or be put out on the street unemployed and homeless."
They may win some and lose some temporarily but they've shown where they are going with this. And it's global.
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| | | 818 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 02:56
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They have, eh? Who exactly is "they," again?
'Cause the ones pushing religious views onto others have been, by and large, the theocrats like Santorum (who, btw, has very little use for personal liberties and has said so).
I think you're missing the point yourself, that it doesn't matter, really, that extremists exist (no s, Sherlock). It is that we live under the rule of law, and that equality under the law trumps extreme views.
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| | | 819 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 06:35
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And yet you are perfectly happy to force your pro-homosexual religious views on me to the extreme point of making me decide between adopting them and supporting them or being thrown out of my job.
I don't remember Santorum putting a gun to your head.
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| | | 820 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 07:24
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No one is forcing their "gay" religion on you. They want the same rights as any other person. To allow people to discriminate against someone based on sexual or orientation is wrong. It is also wrong for the government to say that someone must act in a manor they believe is immoral.
We have a separation between church and state. Allowing someone religious freedom works in both situations. You shouldn't be allowed to discriminate based on religious views and you shouldn't be forced to act in a manner that goes against your religious views.
In the case of the innkeeper, I can't decide. The facility is available to the public and thus is by definition available to the everyone. However, it is a private business that should have the right to accept or decline business based on their discretion. If they accepted the booking and tried to cancel once the party showed up, I think they would be liable for damages of cancelling the event. If they want to ask every party booking an event "You aren't gay are you". Do they have that right?
How many people would support a business that was obviously bigoted? Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that it would be a small minority.
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| | | 821 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 11:17
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"However, it is a private business that should have the right to accept or decline business based on their discretion."
So if the lunch counter down the street wants to refuse service to those dirty Negroes, that's OK too? I know you don't really believe that, but that's effectively what you're supporting.
"How many people would support a business that was obviously bigoted? Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that it would be a small minority."
I would venture to say that you are incorrect in your assertion that it would be a small minority. it would be a smaller number that it would have been 50 years ago, but you only need look back at that example to see that yes, such businesses DO thrive in many environments. While it would be nice if people had evolved beyond that point, the very fact that we're having these debates now (and you have tyrranies of the majority attempting to actively implement discrimination) pretty much shows you that you're incorrect.
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| | | 822 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 11:29
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Well, look at FOX News, Frick.
I don't remember Santorum putting a gun to your head.
That's because we here in PA were smart enough to throw him out. He's a theo-con who doesn't believe in individual liberties. He's the opposite of what you should be standing for. But you are too busy trying to make sure that a small number of God's children don't find happiness with each other.
The new Far Right meme: "I'm being forced to be tolerant!!! Not unlike my Savior requires of me!!"
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| | | 823 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 11:38
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That is what I'm struggling with, sadly I fear that you are correct that discrimination would increase without protections. Where I struggle is the line between protecting civil liberties and freedom of religion. Same sex marriage is easy enough, it isn't harming anyone else if the state grants a marriage certificate to any two adults. A church is free to not allow the ceremony to not take place in their facilities.
In Sarge's 816, why is it ok for 2 of the 3 to effectively discriminate? Because it is hard to prove whey they are discriminating?
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| | | 824 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 11:42
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It is a matter of public accommodation. That's where the state draws the line. You aren't able to discriminate against protected classes in areas in which you indicate you are open to the public in specific ways.
It isn't always clean and easy. But I agree with sarge on what the final outcomes will be. A service like a photographer isn't a public accommodation (renting a hall to the public, however, is usually).
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| | | 825 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 11:57
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There's a subtle difference between "my business and property is open to the public" and "I personally am open to the public" that contributes to the struggle. Boldwinian rants to the contrary aside, nobody really wants to force individuals, in their role as an individual, to associate with people they don't want to associate with. And those types of businesses sort of blur the line between public and private, much more so than an innkeeper (whose very business is predicated upon "pay X and you can have a room") does.
Similar examples already in existing law: You, as an individual, are welcome to refuse to sell your home, or to rent out a room in your private home, to anyone for any reason -- including the already accepted classes such as race. However, you may not ADVERTISE something like "no blacks". You may not refuse to rent to someone in an apartment building you own, though. Also, if you are in the business of real estate, you may not discriminate on the basis of race.
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| | | 826 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 11:59
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Or any other protected class.
Baldwin would have us believe that the inclusion of gays into protected class status in any way violates his religious liberty to tell these people that they are engaging in sin.
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| | | 827 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 12:00
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I agree about the likely outcomes, but does that make them just? I think the distinction is probably the best we are going to achieve, but is it based on reason or ease?
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| | | 828 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 12:03
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Re 820/821: I am not sure we have the details on the Inn, my general feeling is they are in the wrong, but if the situation is that they called the inn and said we would like to hold the reception for their "gay" wedding then I am fine with them turning them down, just as I would be fine if someone called up and asked if they could have clan induction ceremony there. I guess what I am saying is fine with them discriminating by event.
As for the florist, If all they asked was for them to make an arrangement then they should make the arrangement, but they should not be required to make or write anything with the arrangement they do not feel comfortable with.
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| | | 829 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 12:25
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"Or any other protected class."
Well, yeah, of course. Just picking the most obvious, and hopefully least controversial, example.
Baldwin would have us believe that the inclusion of gays into protected class status in any way violates his religious liberty to tell these people that they are engaging in sin."
Well, he's been wrong before, he'll be wrong again.
It's important to note that that exact argument can be applied to various other religions. Old-school Mormons and race, to pick an easy one; I'm sure he could regale us with tales of how, say, Muslims systematically discriminate against women and we should therefore not recognize Sharia law. But there's no decent explanation (other than "because I say so, gosh darn it") why we should choose one particular sect's beliefs as the "correct" one; it would seem that it's impossible to recognize a Jehovah's Witness' right to discriminate against gays and follow their laws, but not equally recognize a Muslim's right to discriminate against women and follow Sharia laws, or a Mormon's right to discriminate against blacks and follow the teachings of Golden Tablet #47. So the options are either make an establishment of a state religion -- which the alleged conservatives are all in favor of flaunting the Constitution on -- or tell all of them to screw themselves.
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| | | 830 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 12:33
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"I agree about the likely outcomes, but does that make them just? I think the distinction is probably the best we are going to achieve, but is it based on reason or ease?"
Some of each. Hopefully, as fewer people are outright bigots (not by the force of law, but by the force of basic human decency), and fewer children are in turn exposed to outright bigotry as other than a cautionary tale of how not to behave, these distinctions will become less and less important in a legal sense (it's the same hope that you had in post 820). Unfortunately, I am quite sure we'll not see that happen in my lifetime, and probably not in my children's lifetime. Give it maybe 100 years and we'll hopefully be close.
It's important to note that if things were actually anywhere close to Boldwin's delusional ranting in post 817, none of those subtleties and distinctions would exist in the law in the first place.
Does anyone with a brain honestly think that if things were going in that direction all the various exceptions and carve-outs for the really obvious things like race would exist in the first place?
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| | | 831 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 14:10
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This is an excellent look into the anti-gay marriage crusade by the Seattle Archdiocese.
Mass
Uprising
The American Catholic hierarchy is escalating a campaign against
gay marriage—and progressive Catholic churchgoers are angry.
Angry enough to leave. Angry enough to organize. Angry enough to stop tithing. How much money from that donation platter is going into the fight against gays and lesbians, anyway?
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| | | 832 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 18:04
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Heh:
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| | | 834 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 13:39
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Yep, a funny thing happens when someone with narrow and rigid views; closes their mouths and opens their eyes.
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| | | 836 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 17:36
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he did
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| | | 838 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 19:44
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Gay Dallas Judge, refuses to perform hetero marriages, until gays can wed
Dallas County Judge Tonya Parker says she won't perform marriage ceremonies until homosexuals can be wed.
During a Feb. 21 meeting, Parker told the Stonewall Democrats of Dallas that while she has the power to perform legal marriage ceremonies in her court, she will not.
She's in TX. I hope she is patient.
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| | | 841 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 12:58
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It isnt a matter of legalizing it B. Its a matter of equality and UN-illegalizing it.
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| | | 842 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 13:02
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Give him a break, sarge. It is tough to always be sounding the alarm about the moral apocalypse happening and yet the world continues to spin.
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| | | 843 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 14:14
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Wind down.
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| | | 844 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 14:32
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Isn't that pretty much Paul's platform?
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| | | 845 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 14:45
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Paul's platform is much closer to "leave it to the states" than "legalize everything". There's some things he would then personally prefer to legalize, and a bunch of others that he would prefer to illiegalize, on the state level.
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| | | 846 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 14:56
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Ron Paul would allow states to dictate pretty much everything, including constitutional rights.
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| | | 847 | Tree
ID: 441112414 Fri, Feb 24, 2012, 15:18
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for some reason, i can't see whatever Baldwin posted.
i have no doubt it looks something like this:

or this
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| | | 848 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Feb 26, 2012, 12:12
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meanwhile, back in the real world, Obama is bringing our soldiers home.

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| | | 849 | Tree
ID: 321162716 Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 17:19
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not just Marines. The Navy too, and the coveted "first kiss".

shockingly, our military is in fine shape, and the United States has not collapsed.
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| | | 850 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 00:09
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This seems to be the catch-all thread for all things gay. This link, however, probably deserves its own thread, but I'm sticking it here. This is deep Catholic theology, not easy to grasp, but worth a look for the vigorous defense of theological and moral teaching regarding the nature of how the Church extends compassion, makes assumptions about the order of things, and places itself, at times, as the self-referential authority on things:
Interview with Rev James Alison, gay priest.
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| | | 853 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 21:15
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Referring to the 'Man of Lawlessness' who would brazenly stand up in the time of the end advocating breaking God's laws:
2Thes 2:6-15And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
...So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain YOUR hold on the traditions that YOU were taught
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| | | 854 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 00:01
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Refute First, again.
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| | | 855 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 02:31
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#853 - more unintentional ironic humor, but you're too simple to understand why.
hint: actually WATCH and LISTEN to the video.
--------
i thank God often that my religious beliefs don't discriminate, and don't try to make others feel like outsides.
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| | | 856 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 02:42
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*outsiders.
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| | | 857 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 04:54
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Refute First, again. - PD
I just did.
For further refutation consider 2 Peter:and by reducing the cities Sod′om and Go·mor′rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come; 7 and he delivered righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the indulgence of the law-defying people in loose conduct— 8 for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds— 9 Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgment to be cut off, 10 especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile [it] and who look down on lordship.
Daring, self-willed...But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own [course of] destruction, 13 wronging themselves as a reward for wrongdoing.
17 These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a violent storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved. 18 For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. 19 While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one. 20 Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”
For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires...
Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, 16 speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on YOUR guard that YOU may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from YOUR own steadfastness.
---
Famous last words: You people will certainly say: “The way of Jehovah is not adjusted right.”—Ezek. 18:25.
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| | | 858 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 09:37
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Refute First, again. - PD
I just did.
the run of unintentionally hysterical posts continues.
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| | | 859 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 13:01
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Heh.
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| | | 860 | Tree
ID: 42325913 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 14:31
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i am sure the humor soars over his head even after the fact, but that's part of what makes it funny.
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| | | 861 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 18:36
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There isn't anything there to refute.
It pains him that people accept the clear law of God?
So what? It pains pedophiles too. Does anyone say they were born that way. Put yourself in their shoes. Have a little sympathy?
Heck no. They say control your fantasy life and stop dreaming of doing what God condemns.
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| | | 862 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 18:37
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You haven't watched it. Enough said.
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| | | 863 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 18:41
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LOL! Really is this gonna be your tactic from now on? Dude, I've read long books put out by this sort of person. It's something I deal with eyeball to eyeball with families struggling with a son confused by these people and their illegitimate analysis.
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| | | 864 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 18:49
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Continuing to demonstrate that you are done learning anything that might be new is hardly what a so-called follower of Jesus would say.
I don't care that you've decided you no longer need to see or say anything new; I only care that you have tricked people into believing this is some kind of "Christian" response.
Of course, choosing the evil path isn't new, eh? Doesn't your own church have much to say about the fact that you continue to post here? Let alone the content of your posts? You do yourself and your church a disfavor in continuing to hold yourself as a stubborn example of a JW.
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| | | 865 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 18:51
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And yeah, that is going to be my response from now on. If you haven't read or heard the thing being discussed, you don't get the ability to respond as if you did. Certainly not the ability to act as if you don't need to but will respond anyway.
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| | | 866 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 19:16
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No, the ancients understood homosexualty perfectly well. Legitimate faithful Bible scholars aren't going to suddenly discover white is black, black is white.
What is going on is the blossoming of the worldly and satanic Neitzchean project to overturn christian morality and replace it. He called it Umwertung aller Werte: transvaluation of all values. He wrote a book about it called 'The Antichrist' and that is what the modern anti-christians have been on about for 120 years.
As for me and my family we shall 'stand firm and maintain hold on the traditions that we were taught" and "not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from our own steadfastness" - 2Thes/2Pet
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| | | 867 | Tree
ID: 1336918 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 19:48
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So what? It pains pedophiles too. Does anyone say they were born that way. Put yourself in their shoes. Have a little sympathy?
comparing homosexuals to pedophiles. typical of bigots, and not surprising.
Dude, I've read long books put out by this sort of person. It's something I deal with eyeball to eyeball with families struggling with a son confused by these people and their illegitimate analysis.
but you haven't watched this specific video.
i grew up around psuedo-Christians like you. i'm glad i didn't allow that to prevent me from opening my arms and eyes and except everyone as equal, including Christians.
but for the first 18 or so years of my life, i thought all Christians were as evil and misguided and as filled with hate as you. i'm glad that turned out to not be the case, and most of the Christians i know are filled with love for all.
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| | | 868 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 09, 2012, 19:51
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We are all equal. We are all sinners.
Some are going to repent, turn around. Change their conduct, obey God and survive Armageddon.
Sadly others are not going to.
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| | | 869 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Apr 10, 2012, 12:02
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comparing homosexuals to pedophiles. typical of bigots, and not surprising. and heterosexuals is in many ways a correct comparison, they are all probably genetic conditions that cause people to be physically attracted to certain characteristics in other humans.
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| | | 870 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Tue, Apr 10, 2012, 12:15
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Comparing it to heterosexuality would seem much more apt (or, for that matter, liking a big ass instead of big breasts), using the same logic -- but for some reason that is rarely the choice of comparison.
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| | | 871 | Tree
ID: 233241011 Tue, Apr 10, 2012, 12:32
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comparing homosexuals to pedophiles. typical of bigots, and not surprising. and heterosexuals is in many ways a correct comparison, they are all probably genetic conditions that cause people to be physically attracted to certain characteristics in other humans.
perhaps, but the reasons for comparing homosexuals to pedophiles is more nefarious than simple science.
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| | | 873 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 12:46
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LOVE that statement by the Sen.
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| | | 874 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 13:59
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That is a great statement and 100% true. At least somebody in politics gets it.
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| | | 875 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 14:14
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+1
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| | | 876 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 14:36
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Is the Republican party possibly courting moderates at the expense of a few, but very, very vocal minority of extremists?
I can only hope so.
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| | | 877 | Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 15:08
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courting moderates at the expense of a few, but very, very vocal minority of extremists?
Tell it to Bob Bennett and Orin Hatch.
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| | | 878 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 15:16
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Who are hardly moderates. They are, in fact, examples of extremists pushing the party to the extreme.
As the wolf-crying fades, though, I'm hopeful the GOP will again find its senses. It can start with a nice ass whooping in November.
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| | | 879 | Tree
ID: 353321615 Mon, Apr 16, 2012, 16:43
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Is the Republican party possibly courting moderates at the expense of a few, but very, very vocal minority of extremists?
i would like to think that the smarter Republicans, the ones who can see the bigger picture, the true Reaganites, are surveying the scenary and seeing that the Radical right of bible totin' and compromise=weakness is a lose-lose situation.
for a long time we've been saying that gay marriage will eventually be a non-issue, and it's clear we're heading in that direction.
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| | | 880 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 03, 2012, 02:51
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We must vote against gay rights to save the Caucasian race!
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| | | 882 | Tree
ID: 11456315 Thu, May 03, 2012, 16:59
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the tipping point is coming fast.
it is only a matter of a short time before being opposed to gay marriage will be viewed like asking blacks to ride on the back of the bus or drinking from different water fountains. (which, it is)
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| | | 883 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Wed, May 09, 2012, 09:16
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Can we retroactively accept North Carolina's succession bid?
I'm not sure what most people can realistically do to voice their displeasure, but I won't be vacationing there anytime soon. And it is another reason not to watch NASCAR.
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| | | 884 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Wed, May 09, 2012, 10:22
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i suspect there will be a migration south to Atlanta.
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| | | 885 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Wed, May 09, 2012, 10:56
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I can only stand and applaud, #883.
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| | | 886 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, May 09, 2012, 15:16
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It looks like Obama, has confirmed his position on this issue: It is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married.
hopefully they will either completely ban marriage or make open to everyone, so the debate will finally end.
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| | | 887 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Wed, May 09, 2012, 15:25
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Obama wants to take away my right to interfere with other people's happiness? I always knew he was a Socialist.
/sarcasm
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| | | 888 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, May 09, 2012, 16:11
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Too bad he didn't speak out before the horrible NC vote on Tuesday.
I might have said this before, but this reminds me of the whole "women in the military" argument which was such an issue in the 80's. Now we wonder what the heck the problem was.
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| | |
| | | 890 | Tree
ID: 31454917 Wed, May 09, 2012, 18:56
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Everyone deserves the right to get a divorce.
i kid.
but kudos to Obama for getting off the fence, and acknowledging that his views on gay marriage had "evolved".
this is truly a historic day, and i am proud of the man i helped elect in 2008, and will help re-elect in 2012.
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| | | 891 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, May 09, 2012, 19:39
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A cynic would say that this is all a politically calculated move. But his public statements on gay marriage say exactly what he said today: That his views have evolved, after much reflection, over a period of time.
And he's not alone in that:
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| | |
| | | 893 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Wed, May 09, 2012, 23:45
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I'm not sure what most people can realistically do to voice their displeasure, but I won't be vacationing there anytime soon.
Marriage is defined as the union of one man and one woman in at least 42 states.[1] Currently, 31 states have added amendments banning same-sex unions to their constitutions.
Just helping Frick with his travel plans.
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| | | 894 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Thu, May 10, 2012, 00:10
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all of which will ultimately be overturned by SCOTUS, under the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause. This will be a nationally/federally decided issue ultimately. You simply can not have marriage which is legal and valid in ND for ex, NOT be recognized by SC. People are Americans first, and the rights are American Rights, not Florida Rights.
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| | | 895 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 10, 2012, 01:07
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#893: Until recently, all 50 states defined marriage in such a way, as well as the federal government in the DOMA. And it isn't all cut and dried--many states ban marriage but allow same sex civil unions (like Arizona), or recognize same sex marriages from other states even if they do not do them themselves.
The tide is turning. And those against gay marriage will be on the wrong side of history.
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| | |
| | | 897 | weykool
ID: 542292223 Thu, May 10, 2012, 01:57
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A cynic would say that this is all a politically calculated move. But his public statements on gay marriage say exactly what he said today: That his views have evolved, after much reflection, over a period of time.
You dont need to be a cynic to believe that Obama is now saying what he has always believed, anyone with half a brain knows he has been lying for political reasons. Obama is the epitome of the lying politician who moistens his finger before he states his true core beliefs. You can spin it all you want that his views have been "evolving", but I seriously doubt anyone really believes that load of craap.
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| | | 898 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 10, 2012, 02:18
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Ha! Welcome back. Your value-added comments are both welcome and refreshing.
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| | | 899 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, May 10, 2012, 02:20
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While seeking the US Senate seat in 1994, Mitt Romney wrote a letter to a gay rights group known as the Log Cabin Club claiming that he supported full equality for America's gay and lesbian citizens. He claimed that even though has opponent - Senator Ted Kennedy - was an ardent supporter of gay rights, he would be more effective in moving the issue into the main stream of American concern. He stated that he supported the Federal Employee Nondiscrimination Act and President Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
While seeking the governor's seat for Massachusetts in 2002, Mitt Romney's campaign circulated a flier in a gay pride weekend asserting his support for equal rights for all Americans regardless of sexual orientation.
During his tenure in office, the Supreme Judicial Court (SJC) of Massachusetts issued a ruling claiming that denial of marriage to same sex couples was not legal. Governor Romney supported the establishment of civil unions to satisfy the court decision that a legal alternative be available. The court rejected this compromise and gay marriage was made legal despite Governor Romneys objections and calls for a statewide vote. His critics called on him to issue an order forbidding the establish and cited state laws establishing marriage as between a man and a woman. Governor Romney stated that he would abide by "the law" established by the court ruling.
Beginning in 2005, Governor Romney appeared on numerous news outlets restating his previous opposition to gay marriage, and stating that he opposed civil unions and stating that every child deserved a mother and a father. In debates and interviews, he stated that a hodgepodge of marriage rules in every state would not be a feasible situation. He supports a constitutional amendment to define gay marriage.
link
Weykool's characterization of Obama (the epitome of the lying politician who moistens his finger before he states his true core beliefs) could just as accurately describe Romney., except like most of Romney's flip-flops, he's moving in the wrong direction.
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| | | 900 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Thu, May 10, 2012, 03:36
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The tide is turning. And those against gay marriage will be on the wrong side of history.
That depends on whether you score that the day before Armageddon or the day after.
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| | | 901 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Thu, May 10, 2012, 03:39
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Read Psalms chapter two before picking sides so eagerly, PD.
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| | | 902 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Thu, May 10, 2012, 08:45
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I think Obama's timing on the issue does have a lot to do with the general population's "evolution" on the issue. It is easy to say he is flip-flopping on the issue, but arguably the consensus of the population is as well. Despite that we elect our leaders to help lead us, not to try and be a bandwagon supporter.
I think this is going to become a huge issue in the election. I also wonder how much of Biden's "gaff" comment was a gaff and how much it was staged as a way to judge the political winds.
Obama can push this issue and force Romney into a corner. If he comes out as a supporter of gay rights the hard-core right is going to be calling for Romney's head. If Romney bows and placates the radical right moderates are going to swing to Obama.
At the end of the day we have a separation of church and state. If you take the religious elements out of the equation, the state should not support or recognize marriage, a religious concept. The could however recognize a civil union made between two people. Although it does raise the question can two corporations form a civil union? They are people in the eyes of the court.
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| | | 903 | weykool
ID: 542292223 Thu, May 10, 2012, 08:52
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Weykool's characterization of Obama (the epitome of the lying politician who moistens his finger before he states his true core beliefs) could just as accurately describe Romney.,
You are not exactly refuting my characterization of Obama now are you? I you want to convince everyone that his position is evolving then go for it. My point wasnt that Obama's position has flip-flopped, it was that he has been lying about it to get elected.
As for Romney.....allow me to summarize #899. He supports gay rights He supports equal rights for gays. He supports civil unions in place of gay marriage. He opposes gay marriage. Im sure there are plenty of other issues that you could make the case for "an evolving position", but your attempt to portray this position as a flip-flop was a complete fail.
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| | | 904 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, May 10, 2012, 09:27
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Although it does raise the question can two corporations form a civil union?
its called a merger and divorce is when they break up the company, child birth is when you spin off part of the corporation....I guess the answer is yes.
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| | | 905 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Thu, May 10, 2012, 10:38
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He supports equal rights for gays. He opposes gay marriage.
Talk about a complete fail. What do you think equal rights means?
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| | | 906 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:03
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You dont need to be a cynic to believe that Obama is now saying what he has always believed, anyone with half a brain knows he has been lying for political reasons.
i think your statement is 100 percent correct. Those with half-a-brain "know" Obama has been lying for political reasons.
Those with a full brain, however, can read his remarks on gay marriage over the years, and completely understand that he, like many other Americans, has seen his thoughts on the topic evolve over much personal reflection.
At the end of the day we have a separation of church and state. If you take the religious elements out of the equation, the state should not support or recognize marriage, a religious concept.
i am with this 100 percent. there is a distinct difference between a religious marriage, and a civil marriage, and i think those against gay marriage don't understand this.
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| | | 907 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:06
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I agree with boikin that Obama's personal beliefs on gay marriage has likely been far more liberal than he led on until now.
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| | | 908 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:11
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Ha! Yes, the End Times are upon us. Again.
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| | | 909 | Tree
ID: 24581011 Thu, May 10, 2012, 13:02
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I agree with boikin that Obama's personal beliefs on gay marriage has likely been far more liberal than he led on until now.
what evidence do we have of this? people's opinions can't evolve? we need to be, and certainly must be, rigid in our thinking from the moment we turn 18?
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| | | 910 | Razor
ID: 404281012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 13:32
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I don't have any evidence. I just think Obama, as liberal-minded as he is, likely has had the opinion that gays should marry far longer than just 2 days. If he's anything like me, it's probably been about 10 years.
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| | | 911 | Perm Dude
ID: 14591012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 13:59
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His stated opinions, previous to this, is that gays can and should enter into civil unions but that marriage should be reserved for heterosexuals.
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| | | 912 | Boldwin
ID: 474451012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 14:00
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His 'The Evolving Obama' stageplay was always about the radical left posing as normal Americans.
Creating a phony narrative they could stick on middle America's forehead.
A little game of monkey see/monkey do.
And you were the monkey.
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| | | 913 | Perm Dude
ID: 14591012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 14:04
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Apparently so are more Americans (see graph, #891). History won't treat you kindly on this issue.
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| | | 914 | Tree
ID: 444571012 Thu, May 10, 2012, 14:05
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I just think Obama, as liberal-minded as he is...
i think that that's the thing. Obama's really not that liberal-minded at all.
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| | | 915 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, May 11, 2012, 16:22
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Anti-gay rant at Lincoln (NE) Council meeting.
Worth watching the whole thing. This is either a beautiful performance piece of the best damn Tea Party candidate we could have hoped for.
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| | | 917 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, May 11, 2012, 19:10
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ITT: Basic human rights = "dumb distraction".
But, of course, when North Carolina takes away those rights, that's not a dumb distraction, that's just good governance.
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| | | 920 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, May 12, 2012, 09:26
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I realize that your pre-scripted narrative has reality issues, but where do you find the word "rosy" anywhere?
I'm happy to have reality-based discussions with you, but when you continue to just make up sh!t and then debate it as though I (or "liberals" or anyone else here) said it, your gonna get mocked for being groundless.
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| | | 922 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sat, May 12, 2012, 14:40
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From PD's link:
"“As people who promote personal responsibility, family values, commitment and stability, and emphasize freedom and limited government we have to recognize that freedom means freedom for everyone. This includes the freedom to decide how you live and to enter into relationships of your choosing, the freedom to live without excessive interference of the regulatory force of government."
Finally, somebody who remembers what conservative politics really is all about. Freedom for all from intrusive powers. Freedom to make our own choices. Freedom.
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| | | 923 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sat, May 12, 2012, 14:57
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Freedom to make your own choices, exactly K, what the left has been screaming for years.
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| | | 924 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, May 12, 2012, 15:14
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The difference is that the Left emphasizes that often government needs to level the playing fields so that freedom and opportunity can germinate and grow.
The Right believes that the market is best left alone.
Obviously I believe more in the former than the latter. But Khahan is exactly right about conservative politics, and it reminds me of how the British Tories (conservatives) support marriage equality for conservative reasons.
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| | | 925 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sat, May 12, 2012, 15:14
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Well of course freedom is an unbounded good. Let's also throw open the prison gates and make everything legal.
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| | | 926 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sat, May 12, 2012, 15:16
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*Looks back thru several posts...nope. Nobody said any such thing*
STRAWMAN
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| | | 927 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, May 12, 2012, 15:19
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#925: Some of them, sure. We arrest something on the order of 2 million people a year on drug charges, about 40% of which are for possession of marijuana (that might be out of date--in 2010 New York City was busting pot smokers to the tune of 140 per day.
There is certainly a strong conservative case to end the war on drugs, but an even stronger one to end the war on marijuana.
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| | | 928 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sat, May 12, 2012, 15:58
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Freedom good. Moral anarchy bad.
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| | | 929 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sat, May 12, 2012, 16:10
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Theocracy---REALLY bad.
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| | | 930 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sat, May 12, 2012, 16:18
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"Moral anarchy bad. "
Good thing that "moral anarchy" isn't happening here, only "different morals than your bigoted ones".
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| | | 931 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, May 12, 2012, 16:48
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Moral anarchy bad.
worshiping convicted criminals seems like it would be pretty high on the list of things that are included in "moral anarchy".
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| | | 932 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sat, May 12, 2012, 16:48
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The difference is that the Left emphasizes that often government needs to level the playing fields so that freedom and opportunity can germinate and grow.
The Right believes that the market is best left alone.
Exactly. To me, "all men are created equal" means just that (men in the most generic referential to humans) and supersedes the need for preferential laws. The law of the land just has to be enforced as is. A good example is anti-bullying laws that are a hot topic right now. A lot of states are writing anti-bullying laws but also making special cases for bullying against gay people. Its not needed. No bullying means no bullying. Period. No special sub-cases of bullying need to be highlighted by our laws.
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| | | 933 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sat, May 12, 2012, 18:11
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worshiping convicted criminals seems like it would be pretty high on the list of things that are included in "moral anarchy".
Not if the convicted criminal is innocent and is coming back to clean house.
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| | | 934 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, May 12, 2012, 20:27
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Not if the convicted criminal is innocent and is coming back to clean house.
because you know more than the jury that convicted him him or her?
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| | | 935 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sat, May 12, 2012, 21:53
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Trust me. Jesus was innocent.
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| | | 936 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 03:28
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James O'Keefe wasn't.
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| | | 937 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 05:48
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We need a thousand more just like O'Keefe. If the MSM won't do their job someone else has to.
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| | | 938 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 11:30
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which brings us back to your worship of criminals and your "moral anarchy bad" comment, considering the lack of morals in those you praise.
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| | | 939 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, May 13, 2012, 12:23
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B? You crucified Dan Rather for using false documents in a story., Why is it OK for OKeefe to use false video/audio?
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| | | 940 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 13:58
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Wasn't anything false about it. Sure they set the scene by dressing as over-the-top pimp/hooker. That was to explain the premise.
But for the interview they were wearing exactly what they were wearing. I saw it. You saw it. Acorn saw it.
The interview was the interview.
It happened right in front of your eyes.
What happened, happened.
That interview is what Acorn does and no amount of crying and moaning distraction or name calling can take away from that fact.
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| | | 941 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sun, May 13, 2012, 14:17
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Except that some of the videos were published sans excerpts that should have absolved the offices of the accusations plainly made against them. I recall that in at least one case the Acorn employee played along and then right after O'Keefe left the police were called. Of course that fact never made it into the story at Breitbart.
As I recall he did seem to nail at least one or two bad apples who apparently had no issue with obtaining services for a prostitute and her pimp but I dont know whether we have a way of knowing how many Acorn offices he tried to set up. I think 5 or 6 were made public. I'm quite sure that any videos of of getting kicked out of Acorn offices that might exist will never be acknowledged by O'Keefe.
Boldy is well aware of all of this as it was hashed out in the Acorn thread years ago as I recall.
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| | | 942 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, May 13, 2012, 14:38
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as was the selective editing of both the video and the audio in his first "sting" of PP.
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| | | 943 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 15:27
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They nailed PP and Acorn as nailed as nailed can be.
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| | | 944 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, May 13, 2012, 16:06
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with phoney film, they arrive at a phoney conclusion; which you continue to applaud. Your sanctimonious holier than thou aspect, is in full bloom on this Mothers Day.
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| | | 945 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 17:10
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They nailed PP and Acorn as nailed as nailed can be.
um no.
what he did was take real events, and splice them into fiction in an effort to "prove" some point.
which, come to think of it, is what you do. lies are the alter you pray at, and criminals are the gods you pray to.
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| | | 946 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, May 13, 2012, 18:36
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The Far Right is taking on the worst attributes of their fictional narrative of the Left, attaching "heroic" status to them, and hoping we wouldn't notice.
Apparently falsifying information while presenting yourself as unbiased truth seekers is OK if you really believe in what your doing, despite the fact that evidence for your point is so scanty you have to make some up.
With a straight face they bash the "MSM" while heralding liars like O'Keefe.
They nailed PP and Acorn as nailed as nailed can be.
I actually agree. Which is to say, not too much at all.
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| | | 947 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 20:32
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My God, how much more incriminating could PP and Acorn's words and actions be? Waving your arms and shouting liar is all you've got to distract people from the obvious in-their-own-words guilt. Of course you are running every distraction play you can think of.
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| | | 948 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:04
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Your denial of what has been proven, and your continued idolatry of criminals like OKeefe, can not sit well with the God I have read of. You may wish to sit in quiet silence, and contemplate reconciling your claims, with your actions.
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| | | 949 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:07
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Projecting when you don't have any proof isn't actually going to get you traction, Boldwin. Are you under the impression that O'Keefe is a truth teller because he targets the organizations you disagree with?
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| | | 950 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:18
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Waving your arms and shouting liar
exactly. yet you continue to do it.
and why you keep doing it, and denying that O'Keefe, without question, edited and spliced video to suit his argument, is beyond anyone here, and defies everything you say about your beliefs in God and his Kingdom.
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| | | 951 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:24
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Just go back and listen to Acorn and Planned Parenthood workers. That's all you need to know. The character of the people doing the recording can't add or subtract from what Acorn (now renamed) and Planned Parenthood do day in and day out everywhere.
All your arm waving means nothing.
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| | | 952 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, May 13, 2012, 21:27
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As long as we're smearing the many with the actions of a few who decided that it was OK to be indifferent to kids getting raped, there are a few other threads that need to be started IMO. I look forward to your consistency on this clearly important issue.
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| | | 953 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, May 13, 2012, 22:23
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:o)
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| | | 954 | Mith
ID: 37838313 Sun, May 13, 2012, 23:10
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The character of the people doing the recording can't add or subtract from what Acorn (now renamed) and Planned Parenthood do
Sure they can if they have a say in what gets edited out.
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| | | 955 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Mon, May 14, 2012, 00:08
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Baldwin - The character of my God means nothing. Jesus nailed a moaning hooker. I saw it. Wasn't anything false about it. What happened, happened. We need more.
your words, all of them. edited and spliced to present a completely different context - heck, to say something you didn't even say at all.
but, in your world, that's perfectly ok.
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| | | 956 | Boldwin
ID: 3944693 Mon, May 14, 2012, 05:10
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Of course you can listen to ten minute long helpful discussions of how you can work around the law running an underage prostitution ring...no glitches or edits anywhere to be seen.
Oh but he hasn't released everything he ever filmed...there's probably an edit somewhere else we can wave our arms about.
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| | | 957 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011 Mon, May 14, 2012, 11:01
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It wasnt "an" edit B. The whole thing was cut and spliced to to present a story/dialogue which never occured.
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| | | 958 | Tree
ID: 5241149 Mon, May 14, 2012, 11:08
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and now, back to the real world and the topic at hand, an interesting take on black churches and gay marriage.
Is the black church guilty of spiritual hypocrisy in same-sex marriage debate?
Why would the black church cite scripture to exclude gays when a similar approach to the Bible was used to enslave their ancestors?
“It’s so unfortunate,” says James Cone, one the nation’s most influential black theologians and author of “The Cross and the Lynching Tree.”
“The literal approach to scripture was used to enslave black people,” he says. “I’ve said many times in black churches that the black church is on the wrong side of history on this. It’s so sad because they were on the right side of history in their own struggle.”
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| | | 959 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, May 14, 2012, 12:47
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he hasn't released everything he ever filmed
They nailed PP and Acorn as nailed as nailed can be
These two sentences are in conflict with each other. I don't know how many PP and Acorn offices O'Keefe filmed, but it would be logical to assume that he only released(and edited)footage that would be damning to these organizations. So, to say that he nailed these organizations, as entire entities, would be incorrect. He nailed an outlet of PP and Acorn. Unless he took a nationwide sample of these organizations' outlets, and provided percentages as evidence of widespread fraud and abuse, then it's impossible to make extrapolations that this is what Acorn (now renamed) and Planned Parenthood do day in and day out everywhere.
Do we know how many Acorn offices O'Keefe visited in his pimp disguise where he was turned away? Seems there's some controversy over the exact amount, but there is a police report from Mr. O’Keefe’s visit to the Philadelphia ACORN office. This is one of the several offices that he was turned away from.
O'Keefe has refused to provide the number of offices visited until he found some dupes to play his charade, but the facts are clear that it isn't how they operate day in and day out everywhere.
This blanket condemnation is based on bearing false witness, which goes to the heart of the credibility issue.
Trust me.
Impossible.
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| | | 960 | Tree
ID: 37226713 Thu, May 31, 2012, 13:02
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BOOM! DOMA ruled unconstitutional!
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| | | 961 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 31, 2012, 13:21
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Link?
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| | | 962 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Thu, May 31, 2012, 13:23
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nevermind--reading Andrew Sullivan on it.
SCOTUS will have to weigh in here. At first glance I'm not sure this is the home run we want, particularly with the other cases making their way through the system.
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| | | 963 | Tree
ID: 454383112 Thu, May 31, 2012, 13:43
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sorry, i was on my way to a meeting and posting from my phone, so didn't have time to link up - figured it would be all over the interwebz in minutes.
it may not be the home run we want, but it's another step in the right direction for those who want to keep homosexuals riding on the back of the bus.
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| | | 964 | Tree
ID: 35518188 Mon, Jun 18, 2012, 09:25
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The secret gay agenda - LZ Granderson
I'm sure you've heard a lot about the gay agenda, but may not know what's in it. Here's what you do: Download a copy of the United States Constitution, read it. Everything the LGBT community wants is in there.
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| | | 965 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Jun 18, 2012, 11:44
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BEAUTIFULLY written piece LZ.
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| | | 967 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 13:22
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| | | 968 | Mith
ID: 186412015 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 16:50
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Here are some Christians I am proud of.
It Was Reconciliation Personified.I hugged a man in his underwear. I think Jesus would have too.
I spent the day at Chicago’s Pride Parade. Some friends and I, with The Marin Foundation, wore shirts with “I’m Sorry” written on it. We had signs that said, “I’m sorry that Christians judge you,” “I’m sorry the way churches have treated you,” “I used to be a bible-banging homophobe, sorry.” We wanted to be an alternative Christian voice from the protestors that were there speaking hate into megaphones.
What I loved most about the day is when people “got it.” I loved watching people’s faces as they saw our shirts, read the signs, and looked back at us. Responses were incredible. Some people blew us kisses, some hugged us, some screamed thank you. A couple ladies walked up and said we were the best thing they had seen all day. I wish I had counted how many people hugged me. One guy in particular softly said, “Well, I forgive you.”
Watching people recognize our apology brought me to tears many times. It was reconciliation personified.
My favorite though was a gentleman who was dancing on a float. He was dressed solely in white underwear and had a pack of abs like no one else. As he was dancing on the float, he noticed us and jokingly yelled, “What are you sorry for? It’s pride!” I pointed to our signs and watched him read them.
Then it clicked.
Then he got it.
He stopped dancing. He looked at all of us standing there. A look of utter seriousness came across his face. And as the float passed us he jumped off of it and ran towards us. In all his sweaty beautiful abs of steal, he hugged me and whispered, “thank you.”
Before I had even let go, another guy ran up to me, kissed me on the cheek, and gave me the biggest bear hug ever. I almost had the wind knocked out of me; it was one of those hugs.
Sadly, most Christians want to run from such a sight rather than engage it. Most Christian won't even learn if that person dancing in his underwear has a name. Well, he does. His name is Tristan.
However, I think Jesus would have hugged him too. It’s exactly what I read throughout scripture: Jesus hanging out with people that religious people would flee from.


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| | | 969 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 19:44
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Great article Mith, thank you for sharing.
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| | | 970 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 19:50
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Jesus said he hung out with those sick people the religious leaders ignored because the healthy don't need a doctor.
However the people you are pointing to refuse to recognize they need a doctor. Big difference.
Read what the Bible says about stiff necked unrepentant people who refuse to turn away from what God has called sinful.
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| | | 971 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 20:33
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You might want to go reread those sections yourself.
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| | | 972 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 20:37
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Christians who practice both humbleness and love. How novel.
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| | | 973 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 20:57
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Luke 7:36-50
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| | | 974 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 21:15
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That's a good story, MITH, but I think Baldwin's natural rebuttal would be that the story is about the woman seeking forgiveness through her actions (which were different actions than her sinful ones). Gays, on the other hand, have not changed their actions (sinful ones, per Baldwin) and do not seek forgiveness.
Perhaps Matthew 9:10-13 might be a better place to put Jesus in all this. Overall we aren't put on this earth to make the kind of judgements that Baldwin is making without even thinking about them. Maybe because on these boards he doesn't act with graciousness or humbleness.
Perhaps IRL he is different, I dunno. The point is that Christians should act differently than he acts on these boards.
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| | | 975 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 21:29
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2 Peter
having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust...
many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.
4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned...
and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;
...and by reducing the cities Sod′om and Go·mor′rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come...
...YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on YOUR guard that YOU may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from YOUR own steadfastness Those of you who want to die, or lead others to their death, keep on telling people God will put up with anything you feel like doing and you don't need to follow the moral laws in the Bible.
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| | | 976 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 22:21
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I guess if you believing loving another person of the same sec is "loose conduct" I can see your point. But none of the Bible verses you cite actually define the acts as homosexual ones.
All you are doing is indicating your lack of deep thinking on the issue--pointing out Biblical verses which does not, in fact, mention homosexuality doesn't help your point.
What God "puts up with" isn't the issue. The issue is what Got commands: He commands us to love.
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| | | 977 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 23:03
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You'll recall he isn't interested in our rationalizations. He demand's whole-souled devotion. Doing what he wants willingly.
But you can pretend your pretzel logic rationalizations will hold water with God.
You remind me or the collapsing Episcopalian church. They had barely condoned gay marriage and gay priests when one of their new gay priests declared God wanted people to have lots of sex with lots of people. A bridge too far even for the gay leader of the Episcopalians.
You can rationalize anything and one thing leads to another when you are just making up your own rules...
...but there will be an accounting.
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| | | 978 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 23:45
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Matt 6:5
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| | | 979 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 00:25
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...but there will be an accounting.
Yes there will. And the first question will be: "Did you love?"
Good luck with that one, buddy. Even knowing it is coming.
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| | | 980 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 02:47
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What you really mean is 'Did you love sin?' and you act as if that's a good thing.
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| | | 981 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 02:56
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Therefore since Christ suffered in the flesh, YOU too arm yourselves with the same mental disposition; because the person that has suffered in the flesh has desisted from sins, 2 to the end that he may live the remainder of [his] time in the flesh, no more for the desires of men, but for God’s will. 3 For the time that has passed by is sufficient for YOU to have worked out the will of the nations when YOU proceeded in deeds of loose conduct, lusts, excesses with wine, revelries, drinking matches, and illegal idolatries. 4 Because YOU do not continue running with them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of YOU. 5 But these people will render an account to the one ready to judge those living and those dead.
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| | | 982 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 15:25
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What you really mean is 'Did you love sin?'
Er, no. What I mean is "Did you love?" A simple, yet amazingly difficult question for those trying to weasel out of Christ's mandate.
Don't worry--I'm sure God will be amused that, instead of loving, you took Christ's suffering as a reason to start acting like a dick on his behalf and separated yourself from the very people you are being called to love.
Meanwhile, in other fake persona news,
Chick-fil A gets busted for pretending to be a teenage girl in a comments thread.
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| | | 983 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 19:46
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In your wildest dreams did it ever occur to you to call someone to turn around and stop sinning, instead of offering them repentence-free absolution which is not yours to give?
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| | | 984 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 20:04
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Have you considered that judgment, isn't yours to pass?
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| | | 985 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 20:44
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In my wildest dreams I don't believe that gays looking to marry is sinful. In fact, since I believe homosexuality has a strong biological components, gays marrying each other and agreeing to love and honor each other is a binding agent for our society as well as honoring that God-given component in themselves.
Gay bashing, on the other hand, is cleaving.
I believe God would welcome the first, while condemning the second.
Ironically, I have been spending much of this thread calling you out for the sinning you do when bashing gays rather than giving you "repentence-free absolution" that you seem to expect simply for calling, but not acting, Christian.
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| | | 986 | Tree
ID: 23622520 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:08
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In your wildest dreams did it ever occur to you to call someone to turn around and stop sinning, instead of offering them repentence-free absolution which is not yours to give?
the same could be said of you, oh worshipper of O'Keefe and other criminals.
you praise those who have, unquestionably sinned. as long as the sin to promote your radical causes, you embrace both the sin, and the sinner.
but if two people who love each other want to get married, you want to stand in their way.
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| | | 987 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:35
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I have shown you repeatedly from the scriptures that God's judgement against Sodom and Gohmorrah has not changed and does not change all the way thru Armageddon.
Jesus said 'Neither do I condemn you, go and practice sin no more'.
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| | | 988 | Tree
ID: 486502520 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:52
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you still praise and worship criminals, as long as they support your cause.
spouting the bible doesn't make you a good person. it means you can regurgitate. woot.
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| | | 989 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:55
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go and practice sin no more'
Apparently, sinning involves being homosexual. And Muslim.
I have shown you repeatedly
You have strongly implied. There is literally nothing in the Bible about Sodom and Gohmorrah being about homosexuality. I'm sorry that your assumptions about a book you claim to be your source for everything are, in fact, just assumptions on these points; full of circular logic which is only being engaged to justify what you already believe.
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| | | 990 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Jul 25, 2012, 21:57
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As a former Atheist, I still say you can not use the bible to prove the Bible. Logically B, that is a circular fallacy.
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| | | 991 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:05
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As usual you've got it exactly backwards. The Bible says in four places, "Interpretation belongs to God."
The way to understand the Bible correctly is to round up everything the Bible says pertaining to a particular subject and let the preponderance of evidence provide your interpretation.
Funny how no matter whether you claim to be an athiest or not, your default position has always been, "We should round up all those true believers."
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| | | 992 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:08
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PD
Naturally you wouldn't see the Sodomites surrounding the house and demanding the men be sent out so the crowd could have sex with them, as having anything to do with homosexuality.
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| | | 993 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 02:09
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Because your default position is that the ancients were innocent naifs who didn't know about homosexuality and weren't talking about it.
May I never be surrounded by your innocent straight crowd.
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| | | 994 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:12
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Even the evil, pinko fornicators on this board can agree that gang-rape is a sin.
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| | | 995 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:19
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See #991
Just pull up all the scriptures that deal with men sleeping with men and let the preponderance of evidence convince you.
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| | | 996 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:23
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Just pull up all the scriptures that deal with men sleeping with men and let the preponderance of evidence convince you.
most people on this board find it hysterical that you're willing to cite certain verses of the bible as some sort of evidence against things you don't believe in, yet condone the "less-than-biblical" activities of others, including yourself.
that's part of why you're not taken seriously.
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| | | 997 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:27
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You think people buy you as 'Biblical Expert Tree' while you busily normalize everything listed as a sin in the Bible?
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| | | 998 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 10:49
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I think anyone who has studied one book long enough to be considered an "expert" suffers from mental illness, and is a danger to, at a minimum, himself.
But that's just me.
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| | | 999 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 11:30
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If it were sensible, there wouldn't be any need for "preponderance of the evidence", because there wouldn't be a bunch of self-contradictory junk to hand-wave away in the first place.
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| | | 1000 | Great One
ID: 2431114 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 11:38
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| | | 1001 | Tree
ID: 53555306 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 12:10
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never said I was an expert, just that someone who regularly sins and worships those that do, lacks the credibility to be taken seriously as a self professed expert.
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| | | 1002 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 12:16
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Never saw West Wing but Aaron Sorkin can zing with the best of them, huh?
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| | | 1004 | Tree
ID: 146572613 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 14:59
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that's the most Christian response i've seen so far.
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| | | 1005 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 18:32
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Man, I wish there was a Chik-Fil-A around these parts.
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| | | 1006 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 18:36
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Hey, Naperville has one! I go there all the time! Unfortunately I'm addicted to the beefs they sell around there [Portillos and Augustino's] , but it looks like change-it-is-a-comin to my diet.
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| | | 1007 | Tree
ID: 266262618 Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 19:29
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too bad that change isn't coming to your arrogance or bigotry.
then again, maybe you'll eat three or four of those 1400 mg sodium bombs a day as a show of support, which could bring about change as well.
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| | |
| | | 1009 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 10:20
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Does Obama have a Sister Soldjah moment in him? I hope not. I'd hate to see him helped by pretending to be something that he's not.
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| | | 1010 | Tree
ID: 40619279 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 12:03
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i have no problem with the owners of Chick-Fil-A being Christians.
I have no problem with them being closed on Sundays, per their religious beliefs.
When a business starts to wade into political waters, they should do so with caution and care. Chick-Fil-A did not take care. they did not proceed with caution.
in their statement, they not only lambasted homosexuals, they lambasted people who have been divorced, people who have been re-married, women, non-Christians, and an entire generation by referring to them as "arrogant" for believing gays had the same rights as straights.
this discussion isn't about religious beliefs at all. it's about hubris and the dangerous waters a business enters when dipping into the political pool.
on that note, it's time to order some books from Amazon.
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| | | 1011 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 14:16
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People should go back and read the actual interview. He didn't say any of those things.
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| | | 1012 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 14:41
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He said, "We are still married to our first wives".
That B, is a back-handed sanctimonious slap at anyone who doesnt fir that same status.
He said he is an adherent of the Biblical definition of marriage. That statement, marginalizes those same sex couples out there. (As well as ignores the simple reality, that marriage predates Christianity)
Tree's statements, are in point of fact, on the money.
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| | | 1013 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 14:46
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The statements he actually made are far far tamer than anyone would ever believe if he had only read our forum.
And really, if the standard is 'Whatever Tree Infers' put on yer long boots cause there's gonna be a s#!+storm.
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| | | 1014 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 14:54
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Wiki:On July 2, 2012, the LGBT advocacy group Equality Matters published a report in which it gave details of donations given by Chick-fil-A to such "anti-gay" organizations as Marriage & Family Foundation and the Family Research Council.[47][48][49] Just two weeks later, on July 16, Baptist Press published an interview with Chick-fil-A COO Dan Cathy in which, on being asked about opposition to his company's "support of the traditional family," he replied: "Well, guilty as charged."[50][51][52] Cathy continued:"We are very much supportive of the family - the biblical definition of the family unit. We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God thanks for that. ... We want to do anything we possibly can to strengthen families. We are very much committed to that," Cathy emphasized. "We intend to stay the course," he said. "We know that it might not be popular with everyone, but thank the Lord, we live in a country where we can share our values and operate on biblical principles."[50][51] This was followed by Cathy's appearance on The Ken Coleman Show, a syndicated radio talk show, in which he stated: "I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage'. I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about."[53][54]
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| | | 1015 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 15:11
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No slurs, no bashing. He has principles. Get over it.
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| | | 1016 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 15:14
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???
He has principles.
No one is making an argument against this.
It sounds as if, because you believe his speech to come from "principles," that he should be immune from response. That's not how the First Amendment works.
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| | | 1017 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 15:22
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Do you really want to devolve this county into a fully boycotted country where everyone just buys from their side of the isle?
Cause that's the road you are headed down.
And we have you surrounded.
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| | | 1018 | Tree
ID: 576432714 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 15:51
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No slurs, no bashing. He has principles. Get over it.
the message was loud and clear. if you've been divorced, if you've remarried, if you're gay, if you don't follow the same principles we do (even if those principles make women subservient and make slaves acceptable), you're not as good as we are.
additionally, you're arrogant if you think that you can re-define marriage, because God already told us what marriage is.
this is what his words mean to me, and to others. it's offensive, it's insensitive, and quite frankly, it's a very un-Christian attitude.
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| | | 1019 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 16:01
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#1017: It is kinda funny (at least to me) that this issue has involved boycotts on both sides but only the Right is whining about them.
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| | | 1020 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 16:13
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lmao at 1017. Hoe many conservatives, have boycotted how many movies, they never saw?
or a book, they never read?
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| | | 1021 | Tree
ID: 576432714 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 16:23
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Do you really want to devolve this county into a fully boycotted country where everyone just buys from their side of the isle?
has nothing to do with a side of the [sic]isle.
has everything to do with choosing not to support a business that feels some Americans are not equal to other Americans due to their sexual orientation.
if i were alive 55 years ago, i wouldn't have supported businesses that discriminate against African Americans either.
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| | | 1022 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 16:30
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"And we have you surrounded."
Boldwin: You better give up, Danker, this building is surrounded by forty Control agents! [Danker shoots a bullet from his briefcase gun] Boldwin: Would you believe thirty? [another shot from Danker's case ricochets off the crate Max is hiding behind] Boldwin: One angry boyscout? [Danker shoots again but misses completely] Boldwin: Girlscout?
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| | | 1023 | Mith
ID: 40602716 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 17:04
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Over a decade and finally a Get Smart reference.
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| | | 1024 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:08
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I wonder whose got the better portfolio of patents? The left or the right?
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| | | 1025 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:15
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We'll see how that animus toward business works out in the patent office.
How do I rate Apple computers? I like 1/3 of the stuff he said. I know the left is willing to screw over every liberal working for Chik-Fil-A but am I willing to screw over every conservative working for Warren Buffet?
And if Dan Cathy didn't build Chick-Fil-A, why are liberals boycotting it?
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| | | 1026 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:38
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twisting in the wind, aint ya?
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| | | 1027 | Tree
ID: 376332717 Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 18:53
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And if Dan Cathy didn't build Chick-Fil-A, why are liberals boycotting it?
says the guy who complains about our government but can't be bothered to vote. it's called making your voice heard - try that concept beyond a message board.
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| | | 1028 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 12:25
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Poster at FP:I have to tell this story: About twelve years ago, the top partner in the internaltional consulting firm I worked for in Atlanta, an obviously liberal man from South Africa, launched into a tirade in a management meeting about how "Christian companies" were hypocrits... "except for Chik-Fil-A: that's that one company that lives what it preaches." That impressed me that even he could see that the CF-A corporate culture was real.
Not long after, I was out of work due to a nationwide RIF of many of us new employees. Finding a job was difficult in the aftermath of the dotcom economy bubble, and I was feeling a little down. On a whim I decided to send CF-A a resume and letter describing that incident and explaining why I would like to be considered if there were any openings. Truett Cathy personally responded to me with a nice note and a signed autobiography and had a very nice manager call me and almost apologize that they had a small department did not have any positions available.
I've been in big business a long time. I've been a general counsel and CAO for a prospreous company and have been in several others. I have advised and counselled successful and wealthy people. And I can say positively that no other CEO of a major company would display that type of kindness to a total stranger. Nobody.
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| | | 1029 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 12:32
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I'm sure he's a good man. Really. To heterosexuals.
And how could Cathy pass up an opportunity to pass out a copy of his autobiography?
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| | | 1030 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 12:54
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And if Dan Cathy didn't build Chick-Fil-A, why are liberals boycotting it?
For precisely the same (yet opposing) reason that conservatives boycotted Starbucks.
link
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| | | 1031 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 13:27
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I think the important thing to take from B's post in 1028 is this: Everybody wants to demonize Truett because of his stance on gay marriage. They want to take 1 aspect of him (his religion) and 1 decision by him (his stance on gay marriage) and then judge his whole persona based on that limited information.
And then when they are presented with evidence that maybe, just maybe, he might be a good person all the excuses roll out to continue demonizing him. Why? Because it fits a political agenda to be against him as a person.
In my area at least, Chicfila is very highly regarded as a good company to work for. They are known to take care of all of their employees (there is no evidence of discrimination within the work force), have a quality product, be dependable and reliable, contribute to their local communities. Everything you would want from a local mom and pop shop type set up is brought to you by a large national chain.
And, as far as I know, Truett is not the one making this an issue. They've always given to these charities. But activists and special interest groups with an agenda called them out hoping to get them to stop. And Truett said, "No, I won't cave. This is what I believe and I will continue to support it." And I applaud him for that. Even though I disagree with his stance on the issue at hand. I applaud him for standing up for what he believes in. And I support him. I'm not about to boycott him and try to ruin his business, ruin his family and ruin all of his employees lives because one aspect his personality is in conflict with mine.
And shame on any who want do that. And if you say that is not your goal, then what do you think the point of a boycott is?
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| | | 1032 | Tree
ID: 21740112 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 13:42
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Everybody wants to demonize Truett because of his stance on gay marriage.
actually, for me, it was the way his son presented the argument. it's one thing to believe how you do - it's another to be pompous about it.
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| | | 1033 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 13:49
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Khahan, are you kidding? I hardly doubt that a decision to not eat at Chik-fil-A can be construed as "ruining his business, ruining his family and ruining all of his employees' lives." Am I ruining lives by not buying a Rolls Royce because it is too expensive? Am I ruining lives because I don't watch MTV because the programming stinks? Am I ruining lives because I don't buy a Droid because I like my iPhone better?
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| | | 1034 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 13:59
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Razor, an individual choosing not to do something is nothing. Its part of life and part of business.
You deciding not to eat there is you not supporting them. That is wholly different from calling for a boycott on a large scale intended to harm them. And that second boycott is the kind I'm referring to.
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| | | 1035 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 14:03
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I don't understand why the owner, who injected his views into the public domain, should be shielded from response of this sort.
If I've got a local garage owner who spouts off about "niggers and towelheads" am I wrong to avoid the place, and tell others to also avoid it? Even if the guy is a Little League coach and treats his (white) employees kindly?
The point is that words have effects. And boycotts (such as the one the Southern Baptists had against Disney on this same issue) is a legitimate form of response.
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| | | 1036 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 14:11
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Khahan, the reason for not buying a product is meaningless. Whether it's because they think the food tastes bad, it's too expensive, it's unhealthy or because they dislike the owners, the net result is the same. Trying to separate this latter group as hateful and destructive is silly. Especially since CFA is in no jeopardy of going out of business.
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| | | 1037 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 14:13
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Here Khahan, is why *I*, am "demonizing" him:
link
that link, from:
link
Even if you oppose same-sex marriage, do you really want to support a company that advocates putting gay people in jail, or "exporting" them, just because they're gay?
Even if you don't support same-sex marriage, do you really think gay marriage is "inviting God's judgment on our nation"? Haven't we all heard enough blame from those who claim to speak for the Lord, like after Katrina or, more recently, after the shooting in Aurora, Colo.?
I for one, have had MORE than enough, Biblical misinterpretation applied, in order to spew and spread fear, paranoia and disdain, for our neighbors.
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| | | 1038 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 15:00
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This whole debate is so stupid, if you want to boycott CFA go ahead but I find it a bit interesting that how over blown this whole thing is and that if CFA was hiring slaves in 3rd world country to make there chicken we would probably be OK with it. They made themselves easy targets, shame on them, but is it better they are open?
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| | | 1039 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 15:00
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This whole debate is so stupid, if you want to boycott CFA go ahead but I find it a bit interesting that how over blown this whole thing is and that if CFA was hiring slaves in 3rd world country to make there chicken we would probably be OK with it. They made themselves easy targets, shame on them, but is it better they are open?
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| | | 1040 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 15:21
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The whole debate is stupid?
A co practicing employment practices that result in terminating a female employee because she ogt pregnant?
A co, donating profits to hate groups?
A co, advocating the imprisonment of an entire segment of the population; which has NOT committed a crime?
Hardly a pointless discussion boikin.
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| | | 1041 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 463161814 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 15:51
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Tried to go to Chick-Fil-A today for lunch...line of people at least 300 deep waiting to order...line was nearly an eighth of a mile long outside the restaurant. Too long for me to wait.
I am not opposed to gay marriage...fact is I am in favor. But...I am 100% against government (Chicago/Boston mayors) thinking they have the right to discriminate against a business based on their legally held views/free speech.
The current most important thing in this debate is government overstepping their rights. This country was sort of founded on the first amendment and the government has no right to discriminate against a business based on free speech.
I am all for private citizens rights to vote with their wallets or protest a business.
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| | | 1042 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 16:14
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2 mayors over stepped with words. No governmental action has been taken, none at all.
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| | | 1043 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 463161814 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 16:42
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No government action? http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-perspec-0726-moreno-20120726,0,3773507.story
"There are consequences for one's actions, statements and beliefs. Because of this man's ignorance, I will deny Chick-fil-A a permit to open a restaurant in my ward." ~Alderman Moreno
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| | | 1044 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 17:19
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He can SAY, whatever he wants to. he however can NOT act n it. To do so, would be a clear violation of the 1st Amendment.
No, no ACTION, has been taken.
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| | | 1045 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 463161814 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 17:55
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Exactly "no action" has been taken...the alderman refuses to sign the variance to allow the restaurant to start building. City will likely force CFA to take it to court and waste the taxpayers money in a suit the city will eventually lose. see...the handgun ban in Chicago...cost the city 10s of millions of dollars to defend before losing the battle.
Chicago politicians do not really believe in the constitution...they think the can make their own rules. Where do you think our current president was trained.
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| | | 1046 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 18:08
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NYC's Mayor said he'd do the same, and it wont happen there either. It isnt just "Chicago" politics, though that is an easy label to apply.
No doubt, some asswipe will in fact, deny for purely political reasons and in so doing open his/her city to liability. Assuming, it can be proven. In the case/example you cite, that shouldnt prove difficult, given he said as much publicly, ahead of time.
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| | | 1047 | Tree
ID: 3715117 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 18:16
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i wonder how people would react if someone wanted to build a Mosque...oh wait, never mind. we've seen THAT reaction countless times in the past few years...
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| | | 1048 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 18:28
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valid point Tree. Valid counterpoint.
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| | | 1050 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 18:50
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agree with you MITH.
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| | | 1051 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 19:11
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the alderman refuses to sign the variance
I'm not certain the back story there, but the word "variance" implies a potential zoning violation, which *cannot* be corrected by an alderman (or councilman, or even mayor) signing something. A variance is granted by a zoning hearing board, which is a quasi-judicial body separate from the municipality in question.
It could be that Chick-Fil-A requested a waiver, which is an area of the SALDO (Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance) in which the municipality has some discretion (the municipality has no discretion on zoning rules). The municipality is under no obligation to grant waivers, however. If refused for a waiver, the only option is for the developer to follow the ordinance exactly (without requesting relief).
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| | | 1052 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 20:03
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Chicago sends it's love to it's one Chick-Fil-A.
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| | | 1053 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 20:13
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Halarious! Atlanta CBS showed up at Chick-Fil-A with their camera truck to cover 'the protest' and drives off dejectedly after finding out it's not a protest.
Yeah, no biased media. If 3 guys and a midget show up in kissing protest on the third, you just know the same camera crew will be dreaming up a creative camera angle to make it look like a newsworthy event.
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| | | 1054 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 20:27
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Like when FOX aired footage of a different event, for a DC protest which was grossly under attended?
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| | | 1055 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 20:27
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Midgets need lovin' too.
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| | | 1056 | Tree
ID: 41738119 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 20:41
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re 1052 and 1053 - i'm not one to often discuss grammar and such as a point of debate, but as you continue to lose your grip on reality, your grammar and spelling are going into the crapper.
be nice if you'd respond to 1047, but common sense is not something you deal with well.
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| | | 1057 | Mith
ID: 14751115 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 20:52
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1053 - This is an interesting exercise. Boldwin, what do you think that video shows?
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| | | 1058 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 21:15
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MITH
That only left agenda narratives get told on the lamestream media. The line at Chick-Fil-A coulda been ten times the million man march...(and I'd like an actual headcount of all the CFA's today)...and CBS would have refused to air it, at least that camera crew.
Meanwhile we all suffered thru decades of 'happenings' that made the news but which were not really happening in any substantial way.
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| | | 1059 | Mith
ID: 14751115 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 21:43
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So you think Atlanta's local CBS affiliate didn't shoot video at that Chick-Fil-A today?
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| | | 1060 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 21:44
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There is a huge line at In-and-Out every day here. i wonder what that means.
also, there's often a line at the biggest gay bar in town on Fridays and Saturdays.
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| | | 1061 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 21:49
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MITH#1059
Yes, I know they caught some chopper footage.
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| | | 1062 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 21:52
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Let's see how it compares to the coverage of the kiss-a-thon on the third.
I know BS when I CBS. [thank you Freeper poster for that]
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| | | 1064 | Mith
ID: 14751115 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 22:15
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WGCL-CBS Atlanta not only sent a chopper to shoot aerials, but also a ground crew to shoot video and interviews inside and outside a local Chick-Fil-A store - and also sent a field correspondent there to do file a live report during their evening news broadcast.
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| | | 1065 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 22:29
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The CFA north of Indianapolis was extremely busy. I'm guessing people weren't standing in a line that went out the door and around the building in 90+ degree heat just for the CFA. A friend of mine works for a company that catered in lunch today from CFA.
I detest both sides that are protesting.
CFA's support of anti-gay groups is their business and their money (privately owned), but I don't plan on giving them any of mine anytime soon.
Governments that state they will block their future restaurants or stall them through inactivity are not doing their job.
If CFA has discriminated against a group, the courts are responsible, to find guilt, if it exists, an to punish CFA. It is not the responsibility of the local government.
If you feel that it is within the responsibilities of the local government, they should also feel that the local government was within their rights to attempt to block the mosque that Tree mentioned in 1047.
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| | | 1066 | Mith
ID: 14751115 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 22:36
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Actually if a business takes part in illegal discrimination, it's entirely within the right of local government to prevent that business from expanding in their area. Of course I'd think the apropriate body would be commercial planning boards or similar offices, not the mayor.
And PD is right in 1051, if you're talking about being denied a variance, that sounds like it means the business was trying to get around local regulations of one kind or another. That's what a variance is for.
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| | | 1067 | Frick
ID: 52182321 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 22:50
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Is there some proof that CFA is engaging in illegal discrimination? Or do they just have despicable beliefs?
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| | | 1068 | Mith
ID: 14751115 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 22:59
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I don't know of any discriination CFA engages in at all.
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| | | 1069 | Mith
ID: 14751115 Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 23:05
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I assume Boldy hasn't responded to my recent posts because he's too busy setting the record straight over at Free Republic.
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| | | 1070 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:04
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It has not been proven yet in court, though the suits have been filed; alleging discrimination in employment practices, and according to his stateent, (Mr Cathy), I'd think in his hiring practices as well.
link
4) The media keep saying Chick-fil-A has never discriminated, but the truth is that Chick-fil-A has been sued over a dozen times for employment discrimination. That's what a leading business publication, Forbes, stated in 2007, when they also called Chick-fil-A a "cult" and reported that Chick-fil-A's founder and CEO Truett Cathy said he wanted to hire married people because they are more industrious and productive. Truett Cathy has also said he would probably fire someone who "has been sinful or done something harmful to their family members."
Even if you don't support same-sex marriage, do you want to support what some call a "cult" whose CEO says he would fire employees for "being sinful"?{emphasis added]
The article, has various imbedded links, leading to further relevant articles.
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| | | 1071 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:10
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the truth is that Chick-fil-A has been sued over a dozen times for employment discrimination
I wouldn't weigh in on those comments by Cathy without the full context of the statements. And I'm not so sure that a dozen lawsuits (over how long a period of time?) says much about a business with something like 1500 franchises. Maybe it does, i have no idea.
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| | | 1072 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:28
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#1051 Perm...
The variance stems from subdividing a Home Depot parking lot to add the CFA. It is done all of the time. Every mini mall in the country does this to add the outer ring businesses.
Chicago is a bit unique as the local warlords...uhhh...I mean alderman have the power to grant/deny the variances. "Aldermanic privilege" basically allows the local alderman to have final say on anything that happens in their precinct. In reality the aldermen use it as a tool to shake down local businesses. CFA has been negotiating with Moreno and the city for ~9 months...basically Moreno was not getting satisfaction through the negotiations...CFA is not a company that is going to cave to corruption and being strong armed. If CFA would have paid (contributed to campaign) this would have never become a story.
Moreno recently granted a similar variance to an EZ Pawn store against the objections of many of the local residents. Just the way business is done in this city.
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| | | 1073 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:34
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2007 Forbes article
The parent company asks people who apply for an operator license to disclose marital status, number of dependents and involvement in "community, civic, social, church and/or professional organizations."
But Danielle Alderson, 30, a Baltimore operator, says some fellow franchisees find that Chick-fil-A butts into its workers' personal lives a bit much. She says she can't hire a good manager who, say, moonlights at a strip club because it would irk the company. "We are watched very closely by Chick-fil-A," she says. "It's very weird."
Is it legal? There are no federal laws that prohibit companies from asking nosy questions about religion and marital status during interviews. Most companies don't because it can open them up to discrimination claims, says James Ryan, a spokesman for the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Chick-fil-A has more freedom to ask whatever it wants of franchisees because they are independent contractors and not necessarily subject to federal employment discrimination laws. (Employees, however, may sue under those laws.)
Chick-fil-A, the corporate parent, has been sued at least 12 times since 1988 on charges of employment discrimination, according to records in U.S. District Courts. Aziz Latif, a former Chick-fil-A restaurant manager in Houston, sued the company in 2002 after Latif, a Muslim, says he was fired a day after he didn't participate in a group prayer to Jesus Christ at a company training program in 2000. The suit was settled on undisclosed terms.
The company might face more suits if it didn't screen potential hires and operators so carefully. Many Chick-fil-A job candidates must endure a yearlong vetting process that includes dozens of interviews. Ty Yokum, the training manager for the chain, sat through 7 interviews and didn't get the job. He reapplied in 1991 and was subjected to another 17 interviews--the final one lasted five hours--and was hired. Bureon Ledbetter, Chick-fil-A's general counsel, says the company works hard to select people like Yokum, who "fit." "We want operators who support the values here," Ledbetter says.
Cult like? Yeah, I'd say so.
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| | | 1074 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:35
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"truth is that Chick-fil-A has been sued over a dozen times for employment discrimination."
Given the size of the company 100K+ employees I do not think a dozen discrimination suits would be very out of the ordinary. The company I work at has ~3000 employees and I know of a few discrimination suits and the company I work at simply does not discriminate. When certain people lose their job for whatever reason...law suits follow...and when you are dealing with the typical fast food employee I would guess it would be more likely.
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| | | 1075 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:45
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MITH
While I appreciate the effort that went into that, and perhaps the connections you leaned on, You still need to go back and listen to what the camera truck said.
Here's a hint. They didn't say, 'We've already got this covered seven ways to Sunday and we aren't needed after all.'
In addition you'll find examples of mainstream reports that spent a majority or a disproportionate amount of time displaying a still shot of the one person there to protest against CFA, instead of showing the event in all it's love of freedom glory.
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| | | 1076 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 00:50
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How many people B, do you think care to see on the evening news, a line of cars at a bigots store?
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| | | 1077 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:00
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There was I am sure as much interest among the viewing public as there was among the dining public, and please stick yer description of CFA where the...
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| | | 1078 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:05
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Funny the city of Chicago and particularly Rahm Emanuel often do business with Louis Farrakhan and his army of bigots. Funny how the cities values change based on who they are doing business with. What is Farrakhan's thoughts on gay marriage or gays in general?
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| | | 1079 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:06
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"How many people B, do you think care to see on the evening news, a line of cars at a bigots store?"
Given the recent votes on the subject I would guess ~50%...
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| | | 1080 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:16
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B? It isnt CFA I describe as a bigot. It is Truett Cathy. CFA, I correctly called his business. So what is it precisely, you think I need to stick, where? Or is only a religious bigot entitled to free speech?
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| | | 1081 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:35
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go back and listen to what the camera truck said
What who said?
The "citizen journalist" (I hate that term) spoke with the truck operator. He's not a reporter or a producer or journalist of any kind. That guy is responsible for driving the truck, raising the microwave mast, setting up the transmission and a handful of other specifically operations-related responsibilities.
I have no idea why he said that, maybe they'd already shot the video earlier and went back when they heard there was a protest. Maybe it was the 3rd Chick-Fil-A they'd been to. Maybe he was just messing with the "citizen journalist". Maybe he's an idiot.
But WGCL very clearly committed a lot of resources to this story (it's a lot more expensive to launch a chopper than it is to send a microwave truck) and delivered it with entirely fact-based coverage.
You were wrong and it never even occurred to your citizen journalist or Free Republic to display a shred of the integrity that WGCL did today. Suck it up.
You don't know any more about how broadcast news works and what it does than you do about the NIH Peer Review process.
Like much of what you know about a lot of topics we cover here, everything you know about the news media is what you are told by people who are in the business of convincing you to hate the news media.
Free Republic got some number of thousands of readers today to believe that the local CBS affiliate in Atlanta chose to not cover that story because it might embarrass liberals, perpetuating the belief among people like you that they are typically so biased as that.
Do you ever bother to doubt anything you hear on these sh1tty rags you read? All you had to do was go to their website, google 'cbs atlanta'. You're not the least bit interested in an unbiased media. In fact it's the last thing in the world you want.
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| | | 1082 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:41
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Yeah, don't take the camera-crew driver at his word. Don't take the Hadley Center at their word. Don't take the Muslim Brotherhood at their word. Don't take Bill Ayers, or Rev Wright, or Frank Marshall Davis at their word. Nothing to see here, move along.
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| | | 1083 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 01:48
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Yeah, don't take the camera-crew driver at his word.
OH MY GOD the video of the report is right ficking there!
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| | | 1084 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 02:05
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B...he who writes the caption, then rejects all of the photos, because they dont fit his caption.
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| | | 1085 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 02:23
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MITH
Maybe CBS changed their minds between lunchtime and the evening news. Because the camera-crew driver said what he said and you can't unsay it for him.
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| | | 1086 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 02:35
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Yeah, don't take the camera-crew driver at his word. Don't take the Hadley Center at their word. Don't take the Muslim Brotherhood at their word. Don't take Bill Ayers, or Rev Wright, or Frank Marshall Davis at their word. Nothing to see here, move along.
that's pretty much the attitude anyone with common sense takes when they see your posts. "nothing to see here, move along."
you don't want facts. you don't want truth. you don't want reality. you want to spoon fed - that's right, spoon fed - information that fits into your narrow little vision of the world.
a thinker, you are not.
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| | | 1087 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 03:02
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He's the truck operator. And I have no idea why he said that. Maybe they changed their mind like you said but if they'd already got the aerial shots and the truck was already there and they didn't have another assignment, then it's really stupid to not get ground shots and interviews at an event like that.
More likely the truck op misunderstood something he overheard. Or maybe they shot the interviews and video at another location and then went to where they heard there was a protest, where the op met Joseph Pulitzer. I don't see why it matters.
None of you or Freep or your citizen idiot bothered to verify with the simplest, quickest, most basic check because you were all too overcome with glee and had to throw it in someone's face. Unbiased journalism just doesn't feed hate like that. You have no use for it.
Look, Chick-Fil-A was the most widely covered domestic story today. None of the local coverage I saw from various markets presented Chick-Fil-A or their supporters unfavorably.
It was unquestionably the primary topic in every morning meeting and regional conference call, and the networks surely made a point to tell their affiliates they wanted coverage. And the affiliates came through.
Social conservatives should be absolutely thrilled with the tv media's coverage of CFA Appreciation Day, but praising the media for a job well-done doesn't fit with the conservative media's agenda, does it? Neither does just being satisfied with the big mainstream leg up and shutting up about it.
So they run with unchecked BS rumors and cherrypick the few stations that might have reported with bias as an examples of typical "lamestream" coverage. And you eat it up.
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| | | 1088 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 04:45
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Oh, and thank you so very much for firewood at such an auspicious moment. 2010 was just for starters.
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| | | 1090 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 10:33
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Saying the media didn't cover this, due to one example and in the face of a much longer list of counterexamples, is exactly as absurd as saying all Muslims are terrorists, or that all Jehovah's Witnesses are pedophile enablers.
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| | | 1091 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:10
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Breitbart picked it up (shows you their commitment to verifying facts before reporting them) and then updated the post with WGCL's tweet:
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| | | 1092 | Razor
ID: 551031157 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:15
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Saying the media didn't cover this, considering that the news outlet in question DID cover it, is just an embarrassment.
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| | | 1093 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:27
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I did not say the media in general did not report this story. It will be very very interesting to see comparison in coverage with July 3.
And note the very very uncivil nearly daily big lie tactic
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| | | 1094 | Tree
ID: 48729210 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:33
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And note the very very uncivil nearly daily big lie tactic
we've noticed it. it's part of the bible you worship.
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| | | 1095 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:49
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re 1040: re posting since this thread has grown so fast. The whole debate is stupid?
A co practicing employment practices that result in terminating a female employee because she ogt pregnant?
A co, donating profits to hate groups?
A co, advocating the imprisonment of an entire segment of the population; which has NOT committed a crime?
Hardly a pointless discussion boikin.
my point was that this is worst you can find? My point was why are wasting our time posting like mad on basically a non-story. I could probably easily do a Google search and come up with companies doing far worse, let we choose to talk about CFA.
Sarge you really think one women getting fired for being pregnant is major story? It happens every day. they give money to hate groups, how about that gasoline you put in your car where do you think the profits from middle east oil go? where are your protests?
Its a false story, is important that the information is out there, yes, but should it be demanding this much attention, no. This whole thing reminds me of the Roman Empire, in order to distract the masses the emperor would give them games. Here are your games.
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| | | 1096 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 11:58
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I disagree B. When an American corporation, gets tax deductions for contributions to hate group seeking to imprison segments of the population who have committed NO CRIME, then yes, that is newsworthy. Yes, that is deserving of our collective attention. Yes, that is worthy of our organized protest.
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| | | 1097 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 13:28
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If it was such a big deal then why are you only now protesting? They have been donating to these organizations since 2003, that is almost 10 years and this has been public information, it is not like it is some kind of big secret, maybe it was because no one told you to be out raged.
I did learn something new, that fellowship of christian athletes is anti-gay hate group, you better start protesting some athletes.
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| | | 1098 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 13:47
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I havent eaten at a chick-fil-a, in over a decade boikin. Little behind the times bud.
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| | | 1099 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Thu, Aug 02, 2012, 14:37
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Boikin
It was initially a noteworthy tidbit when a top level corporate exec waded into a big PR ado. It grew legs when politicians, officials and celebrities on both sides began weighing in.
The story grew further because it's always news whenever people come out in droves like this, be it for a holiday or to wait hours on line for a pair of shoes or in public display of speech or in support of someone else's speech.
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| | | 1100 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 17:40
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It became a big deal when the president of the company made it a big deal.
I feel kinda bad for the people who work there now. Like nearly all of us, they just want to do their job.
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| | | 1101 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 20:41
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The reason this story is so important is that companies have been shaken down by the left for decades and we need to support anyone with the backbone to say, "do your damnedest, we will not be intimidated."
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| | | 1102 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 20:56
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Given your dwindling numbers, I can see how you want to make sure to continue to mix your politics and religion in stronger and stronger doses.
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| | | 1103 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 20:58
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| | | 1104 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 21:01
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Megan Kelly of FOX is apparently off message: Kelly on gay rights.
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| | | 1105 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 21:33
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Shepherd Smith is also on the gay train and always has been.
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| | | 1106 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 21:38
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its the "equal rights" train Boldwin.
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| | | 1107 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Fri, Aug 03, 2012, 23:41
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Yes, well we all have an equal right to be separated sheep from goats, the goats going off to destruction.
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| | | 1108 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 02:29
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Yes, well we all have an equal right to be separated sheep from goats, the goats going off to destruction.
well, at least you acknowledge that you're a sheep, blindly following, unable to think on your own.
and no one is going off to destruction because two adults who love each other want to marry. you want to talk problematic, discuss your heroes who are on wife number three.
go on, discuss it. :: waiting ::
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| | | 1109 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 02:33
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its the "equal rights" train Boldwin.
actually, to someone who might be a bit self-loathing, it's the gay train. i'm sure he's imagined it more than once.
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| | | 1110 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 09:13
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The fathers of the Nephilim all lost their loves. Every last one of them, married or not. And all their children.
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| | | 1112 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 12:54
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The funny thing is that hate has nothing to do with it.
Get a sense of humor, will you liberals?IowaHawk comments: “Lesbians making out *and* chicken sandwiches? Is this heaven?” - Instapundit BTW I note that gays finally did one tactically smart thing. Limiting the gay-kiss-in at Chick-Fil-A to lesbians only.
Really who is doing the hating? Can you imagine if a conservative mayor was telling gay business owners that they would forever have to expect impossible city zoning obstacles to their business expansion? This wouldn't be hating, but it would be acceptable? And it takes hate to oppose that kind of unconstitutional heavy-handed PC policing?
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| | | 1113 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 13:15
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"...forever have to expect impossible city zoning obstacles ..."
Who specifically made that statement, when and where? (or is this another of your "not intended to be factually accurate" allegations?)
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| | | 1114 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 13:26
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Limiting the gay-kiss-in at Chick-Fil-A to lesbians only.
I've seen at least two pictures that were dudes. Maybe because I have gay FB friends who post them, I dunno.
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| | | 1115 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 16:14
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Would you like to save freedom and the preserve the constitution? | | | v Is it Sunday ---> no ---> Eat at Chick-Fil-A | | | | v Yes | | | v Eat at Wendy's
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| | | 1116 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 16:17
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Sarge
See San Fran, Chicago, Boston, or your local Sodom and/or Gomorrah.
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| | | 1117 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 16:18
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so in your mind Boldwin, preserving freedom, means denying freedom to approx 3% of the American population?
Tell you what, lets redefine that 3% that has to surrender their freedoms. We'll call them...religious wingnuts. Your bus to take you to your reservation, will be arriving shortly.
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| | | 1118 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 16:24
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BTW I note that gays finally did one tactically smart thing. Limiting the gay-kiss-in at Chick-Fil-A to lesbians only.
which, of course, isn't true at all. but why would you want to be bothered with what actually happened?
for Baldwin:




plenty more where those came from, if you'd like, Baldwin.
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| | | 1119 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sat, Aug 04, 2012, 21:40
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| | | 1120 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 05:30
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Yeah, whoever heard of a christian doing any charitable works? You gotta be kidding. And while we are at it, the biggest problem in the world is spiritual poverty, something demonstrated by the slouch towards Gomororrah.
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| | | 1121 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 05:56
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Am I the only one who has noticed that Truett Cathy is getting crucified for taking the position Obama and Rahm Emanuel held in public at that exact same time?
But how to explain the timing of this to be blown up into a scandal now instead of when it was said?
This is code for, "When we don't have to worry about reelection and what the American majority wants, we will finally be the 'progressives' you were hoping for, get fired up again."
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| | | 1122 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 09:31
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Obama would have agreed with this?: "We know that it might not be popular with everyone, but thank the Lord, we live in a country where we can share our values and operate on biblical principles."
or
"We are very much supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit"
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| | | 1123 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 09:32
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The exact same position? LOLOLOLOL, how can you type that with a straight face?
This is a man and a company who, through their WinShape "charitable" foundation, have spent money lobbying Congress not to condemn Uganda for EXECUTING and/or IMPRISONING people solely because they're homosexual. That's a juuuuuust slightly different stance than Obama and Emanuel, dude. Get out of here with your lies that you got from some chain email, and join us in reality-land for a minute.
And the reason it's more public now (though this has been going on for quite a while) is because the family decided to make a public issue of his beliefs in the media. And heaven forbid people be allowed to voice THEIR opinions verbally and with their pocketbook when it comes to condemning what someone else says -- apparently THEY don't get free speech too, or you think that Dan Cathy's free speech should come with no consequences whatsoever.
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| | | 1125 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 10:32
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Just to be clear, the protests are not based on what Cathy said. They are based, on the stated intent of the organizations to which Cathy has donated MILLIONS. Organizations endorsing and forcing minors to undergo "reparative" therapy. (as if homosexuality were an illness requiring 'repair'. Folks who buy into this quackery, are the same ones who continued to buy into shock therapy for behavioral disorder, long after it was debunked. The same ones who treat alcoholism as a character flaw instead of a disease.) He supports organizations who wish to declare sodomy to be illegal. Why do want to make such a declaration? So they can jail gay men.
So to be clear, the protests are not intended to deny Cathy his freedom of speech, nor his freedom of religion. They ARE intended, to educate the public as to where the dollars go, that get sent at Chick-Fil-A.
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| | | 1126 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 10:42
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And to be even clearer, even if the protests WERE based on what he said, that would ALSO be people exercising THEIR OWN free speech and equally acceptable on those grounds.
Nobody's forcing the guy to not talk. They're just saying "hey, if you want to talk (and, yes, act) about how other people behave, guess what, we're going to talk (and yes, act) about how YOU behave."
He's got his right to free speech either way. What he doesn't have is the right to determine how people react to, or speak about, that speech.
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| | | 1128 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 14:38
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Sarge, always interested in the reputation of the God of Abraham. How long do you intend to keep up this pretense, Sarge?
When there are only two people on the whole planet and they HAVE no genetic defects to pass on, their first generation of children don't have to worry about consanguinuity.
All other lame slams in there, just as easily dismissed.
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| | | 1129 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 15:35
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Easily dismissed... if you want to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you want to use to make other people be less than human!
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| | | 1131 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 17:06
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Really B? You flippantly wave your hand and dismiss all? Who, or what, has that kind of power? (hint: It aint you)
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| | | 1132 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Aug 05, 2012, 23:28
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How long do you intend to keep up this pretense, Sarge?
you've been asked this for years. you simply don't practice what you preach, and when confronted on the matter, you either lie, change the subject, or ignore it altogether.
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| | | 1133 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 04:11
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Perhaps after you admit why it is your religious duty to press me every minute of the live long day.
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| | | 1135 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 11:06
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We had some pretty vicious storms come through yesterday. I hadn't realized there was a death (thanks for the link) but we had at least a dozen lightning strikes here in the area.
I'm about 30 minutes or so away from the Raceway--mostly because of twisting mountain roads. As the arrow flies we're not far at all.
The last few years have had some rain for the second race (we have two NASCAR races a season here in the Poconos) but this storm was pretty vicious this year.
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| | | 1137 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 16:06
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Yeah, and you intend to 'help' the situation by introducing gay scoutmasters. Sheesh.
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| | | 1138 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 16:09
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"gay" does not equal pedophile B. Get that truth, through that thick ass skull of yours.
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| | | 1139 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 16:14
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No, not always.
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| | | 1140 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 17:06
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If by "not always" you mean "pretty rarely", congratulations, you got something right. Somehow I doubt you got anything right though.
Re: the Boy Scout case itself -- I think, based solely on reading the article, it's a little unfair to lump this one in with the various church scandals and Jerry Sandusky's of the world. They seem to have a poor tracking system on these people more than anything -- but so does the rest of the world. I didn't see (and perhaps they exist, I just didn't see it highlighted in the article, though I read it a couple hours ago and I'm prepared to be wrong) any cases where they actively tried to hide evidence of anything from the police, or actively discouraged children and their families from reporting problems to the police, or anything of that nature.
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| | | 1141 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 17:08
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No, not ever.
Gay, is not causal, for pedophilia. Therefore, gay does not equal pedophile. Or are now going to regale us, with how the SPLC is behind the years of sexual abuse and cover ups, in the Boy Scouts? Or perhaps, how it is a Masonic conspiracy to discredit this organization? Or maybe, it is the Jews fault and you will soon reveal to the rest of us, how Israel is behind it all. Please B, dont keep us mere mortals in suspense. Do tell, do tell all...
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| | | 1142 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 17:19
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Being gay and being a pedo are different things. This is like refusing to hire women because you don't want schizophrenics on your staff.
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| | | 1144 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 17:43
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And here is why: marriage has always been understood primarily as the means to bearing and raising children. Yes marriage provides companionship to the married partners, but that has never been the reason we needed marriage as a society.
Boy howdy are they "misunderstanding". Just about any sociologist, will tell you that marriage came about as a means for a woman to support herself into adulthood. She essentially traded, her domestic services, in exchange for housing, food, clothing and physical protection from attacks. Hence, the dowry was paid the new husband, to give him a leg up on the 'expenses' he was about to incur. Child bearing, became the means of a couple for providing for THEIR upkeep in later life. Many kids, meant many people to help feed, house and care for them.
IOW, it was an economic driven social contract.
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| | | 1146 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:47
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link
Jesus Christ filed a lawsuit today in the New York Supreme Court against the Republican National Committee for what he is calling “egregious misrepresentation of his statements and image.”
One of the attorneys representing Christ had this to say:
“For years Republicans have proclaimed their love for and loyalty to Jesus, yet their actions are highly contradictory to what Mr. Christ preached. Instead of helping the poor and the sick GOP instead punishes the poor and the sickly.
Our client isn’t telling the GOP what their agenda should be, he simply wants them to stop using his name when their actions contradict everything he stood for.
If the GOP would like to continue using his name they have to start making a significant effort to help the poor and the sick, instead of the rich, and start promoting a more peaceful agenda.”
When asked about the lawsuit, House Speaker John Boehner made the following remarks:
“Mr. Christ is entitled to his opinion, however the GOP believes that the underlying message in the Bible is that giving tax cuts to the wealthy is the true path to happiness.
I don’t know where Mr. Christ thinks the Bible says to help the poor and the sick, but that sounds awfully socialistic to me, and we are not a socialist country.”
The lawsuit goes even further than just spoken word references to Jesus. According to the suit “images that inaccurately depict Jesus Christ, who was born in Middle Eastern country, as a Caucasian man with light skin, can no longer be displayed by political officials who claim they understand the Bible.”...
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| | | 1147 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:49
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WWJD, not Robbinhood.
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| | | 1148 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:59
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How can you possibly be "pro life" and be against universal health care?
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| | | 1150 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:27
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Socialism in the USSR produced an economy so putrid and a 'healthcare system' so bad they couldn't even afford sterilized needles in hospitals.
How can any caring person propose choosing socialized medicine and a socialized economy?
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| | | 1151 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:27
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The list of countries with single payer is long. Are those countries all "socialist" now?
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| | | 1152 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:31
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Or communitarian.
You will notice that none of them (in the west) can afford their own defense, and rely on ours.
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| | | 1153 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:32
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You'll notice, that we spend more than then next 3 or 4 countries combined. An entirely, unjustifiable figure.
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| | | 1154 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:38
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You'll notice about 50 countries owe their freedom to that defense. Pro-rate that.
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| | | 1155 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 20:04
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cut spending, but buy all the bombs we can make.
That about sum it up there Mr Christian?
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| | | 1156 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 20:11
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You will notice that none of them (in the west) can afford their own defense, and rely on ours.
Canada? England? Sweden?
When was the last time we came to their defense? Two generations ago?
Overspending on defense and cutting food stamps is un-Christian. You really need no other reason than that.
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| | | 1157 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 20:44
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| | | 1158 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:02
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Sarge#1155
The alternative is that everyone become genuinely christian and put their fate in God's hands. Which would be great. But that's not going to happen.
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| | | 1159 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:04
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Being Christian doesn't mean you wait for everyone else to start acting Christian before you do. It means acting Christian yourself--to be known as a Christian by how you act, in fact.
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| | | 1160 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:06
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I am disarmed. Happy?
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| | | 1161 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:08
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You think we would have attacked Iraq if we didn't have a massive standing army just sitting around?
Our "national defense" justifies it's own existence by starting unjustifiable wars.
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| | | 1162 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:12
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Yeah, marxists and jihadis aren't the least bit expansionist.
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| | | 1163 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:15
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Keep building those strawmen dude.
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| | | 1164 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:29
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Heh. Yeah, the neocons aren't expansionist either...
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| | | 1165 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:30
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BTW PD, I do not go off to war at the direction of the government under which I live, to kill other members of my religion in other countries.
Something you cannot say.
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| | | 1166 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:32
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bili
Marxists and jihadis don't exist, or they don't have a religious conviction that it is their duty to spread their religion until it covers the earth?
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| | | 1167 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:46
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BTW PD, I do not go off to war at the direction of the government under which I live, to kill other members of my religion in other countries....
No, you stay home and decry any sort of health aid or food aid, for the less fortunate. You find no need to "go" anywhere to kill. You are perfectly at home, doing it FROM home, to your neighbors.
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| | | 1168 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 02:25
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I've never gone off to war to kill anyone from any religion Boldwin.
And given your posts on this board the last year or so, it is very difficult to determine exactly what religion you belong to. Besides the GOP religion, of course.
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| | | 1169 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 05:15
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You find no need to "go" anywhere to kill. You are perfectly at home, doing it FROM home, to your neighbors. - Sarge
Tell it to the several hundred million who died in gulags or were deliberately starved to death in earlier experiments to build your marxist paradise. Pointing that out as a warning is hardly killing anyone.
I've never gone off to war to kill anyone from any religion Boldwin. - PD
No, but how many catholics do otherwise when asked?
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| | | 1170 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 05:18
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Plenty. And you should thank them for it.
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| | | 1171 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 05:34
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Well let's take a look. What percentage of American catholics went to prison rather than kill German catholics in WWII? And vice versa?
to be known as a Christian by how you act, in fact. - PD
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| | | 1172 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 05:41
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And since the penalty for refusing to do so in Germany was often execution by guillotine those must have been harrowing times for German catholics, huh?
 Let's go directly to Reich Bishop Muller for a first hand report.
BTW you are the one, PD, who brought up the subject of real christians' stance wrt war.
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| | | 1173 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 12:00
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BTW you are the one, PD, who brought up the subject of real christians' stance wrt war.
I don't know that that is the case, but yes, we Catholics have a "just war theory" in fact. We don't ban our members from protecting ourselves even in wars. You should read about it--it is an nuanced and piece of difficult theology. The fact that is is Catholic is the third strike I'm sure against you reading it but there you go.
I currently attend a parish named for Maximilian Kolbe. I don't think you are going to "win" an argument that your religion was somehow more morally superior during that war.
Also, you probably should be careful in claiming that your religion (and thereby you, by extension) are complete divorced from World War II, since this removes your ability to make any claims about what we should do about these "new Hitlers" that you claim are all over the place. To be blunt, if you are claiming the high road on World War II because your religion sat that one out, then logically your advice about the Muslim Brotherhood and other "threats" would be to similarly sit on our hands, an act you take great pains to point out, with much venom, is too "liberal" to contemplate.
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| | | 1174 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 12:15
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MY marxist paradise? hahahahahahahahaha In "MY" world Boldwin, there would be jobs to be had. A fair days work, would provide for a fair days wage. A single income, would raise a family and buy a modest home. A dual income, would buy a nice home and pay for real, travelling vacations. You know, sort of like the 50s here in America. When people like Eisenhower, (right, a Republican with a meme that extended beyond "WTF is in it for ME"?), served this nation.
THAT Boldwin, is my *ahem* marxist paradise. Now, kindly quit talking out of your ass, about topics wherein your ignorance grossly exceeds your knowledge. The air, is getting more and more putrid, every time you do that.
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| | | 1175 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 13:03
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Ah, a fun forum where the guy from the religion that consistently defends the pedophiles against their accusers wants to get high and mighty.
(And yes, if bringing up WWII is in bounds, so CLEARLY is this, and I will brook no attempt to squelch it.)
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| | | 1177 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 13:47
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since this removes your ability to make any claims about what we should do about these "new Hitlers" that you claim are all over the place. - PD
First off, PD, I do not recommend government actions. I point out situations and government and peoples can do whatever they want with that information.Search as he would, Catholic scholar and educator Gordon Zahn could find documented evidence of just one among 32 million German Catholics who conscientiously refused to serve in Hitler’s armies. Aside from churchmen prosecuted for political opposition to the Nazis, he found a total of seven persons between Germany and Catholic Austria who conscientiously refused to take the military oath. BTW those handful who would not go to war are not looked on favorably by the Catholic church to this day and their stories are squelched.
In comparison the 97% of Jehovah's Witnesses who did not escape detection, were all incarcerated in concentration/death camps from which they could have all walk away freely by renouncing their religion.
The one Catholic German who was executed for refusing to take the miltary oath was very vocal in his admiration for relatives who were JW's.
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| | | 1178 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 13:54
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re 1174: I think we have discussed this before there was no 50's paradise that you just described. So maybe that is no marxist paradise, but it does sound more marxist then capitalist. Only a marxist would dream to have the same life for his children not a better one.
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| | | 1179 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 14:02
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Sarge
In your marxist fantasy, marxism could actually deliver that.
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| | | 1180 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 14:07
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no boikin, you dismissed it I am sure, However, talks with my grandparents in the past, with my parents, with my aunts and uncles...all lead me ot believe that while "Leave it to Beaver" was a dream world, life itself was better then for the masses, than it is today.
You dare say wanting things like that would be wanting things to be worse? 8,000,000 Americans are out of work boikin. Pull your head out of your ass and look around. In 2 years, we've had 3 major, multiple shooting incidents. We have severe divisiveness within the social structure. We have chronic economic ills. Yeah right, wanting a job to be there for my son to take, is wanting things to be worse. You couldnt possibly be more ignorant, if you deliberately tried to be.
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| | | 1181 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 14:27
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really sarge are you calling me ignorant? All I have to say is clearly you are not a minority...maybe you would rather have lynchings instead? Maybe you would like to restate your answer, about the greatness of 50's quit using antidotes for evidence. If you are so confidence you should be able to easily find cite-able evidence to back up your hypothesis.
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| | | 1182 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 14:56
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Re: 1176 (which I'm sure will be deleted at some point if there's any decency in the world, but hey):
Would you like me, Tree, or some of the others to provide the documentation again? It's all clearly there. You can deny it and call people names all you want to if you want, but it's EXACTLY the same thing that you do to other religions whenever you see fit, and you seem to think it's absolutely fine in all those other cases -- but when it's pointed out that your religion's followers aren't exactly any better, you start calling people names and throwing tantrums. I'll remind you yet again that you're the one that started calling out other people's religions here, I'll further point out -- so I also assume you're OK with those sorts of discussions and aren't just using them as veiled personal attacks (hahaha).
In other words, don't like it? Then don't do it to the Jew, the Catholic, the Muslims, and the various Protestants if you can't handle it being done right back.
You reap what you sow.
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| | | 1183 | Boldwin
ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 15:36
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Then you will no doubt reap a crop of tiny trolls accusing you of being a pedo.
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| | | 1184 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 15:45
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OK boikin, let me spell it out at the 3rd grade level, so you can follow along:
I am referring to the economics of our society. I am ASSUMING, things like the Civil rights Act, stay in place. I SAID, jobs and compensation. Those are specifically what I was talking about. YOU, extrapolated it into something else.
You want to debate what I said, fine. Debate what I said, not what you prefer I had said.
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| | | 1185 | DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 15:50
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"Then you will no doubt reap a crop of tiny trolls accusing you of being a pedo. "
Don't worry, I accuse you of no such thing. And I know this is hard for you, so I'll make it clear yet again.
I accuse your religion and its followers of systematically COVERING UP for pedophiles in their ranks, and intimidating victims into not reporting crimes, and threatening them with excommunication from the church that they have followed their whole lives. And, given your response to it every time someone brings it up, I accuse you personally of doing the same thing, albeit less directly.
You personally aren't Jerry Sandusky in this play, but you're certainly in the same circle of hell as Spanier and Paterno, and you're there because you think God tells you to be.
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| | | 1186 | Frick
ID: 14082314 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 17:07
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Were things really better in the 50s? If you go by what was on TV, absolutely, but I question how much reality matched television.
Without going anecdotal evidence, look at the sizes of homes built in the 50s through today. In general, home sizes have increased while family sizes have shrunk. So the quality of life in regards of housing has probably improved in general. I think that people romanticize the 50s as a great place economically, but I doubt that most people would want to live in the same conditions that their parents grew up in. Maybe I'm wrong as I'm also using my personal experiences, I would be interested to hear from others.
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| | | 1187 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 17:24
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I zapped #1176. Clearly over the line. Many others are approaching the line, so I'd caution you fellas to consider the thread title whenever posting, to help keep things on topic at the least.
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| | | 1188 | Guru
ID: 330592710 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 17:36
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My initial reaction was to zap the entire thread.
Keep it up, and I'll make it so.
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| | |
| | | 1200 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 10:57
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I think, by and large, a legislative body should stay away from expressing medical opinions. Even if that opinion seems overwhelmingly correct.
Doctors (and organizations composed of doctors) should be making such judgments, and the ability of those groups to change medical opinions shouldn't be interfered with.
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| | | 1201 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 12:26
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This isnt medical, its fraud. I have no issue, with a legislative body outlawing fraud.
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| | | 1202 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 13:19
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I await the legislative crackdown on astrologers, then.
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| | | 1203 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 13:26
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I stand with PD on this one. You want to ban fraud, fine ban fraud. If somebody offers a medical service that turns out to be fraudulent then they are fined. But the legislature has no business making laws stating which medical procedures and therapies are verifiable. Let the medical community do that. Then when the medical community comes out and says, "This therapy is hokum and being used as a fraudulent form of treatment detrimental to the patients" then it falls under the 'fraud is banned' laws.
Government overreach, no matter how well intentioned, is still government overreach.
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| | | 1204 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 13:35
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I'm not so sure PD, Astrology actually harms an individual, where the so called "repairative therapy" does and has.
legislative bodies have outlawed harmful pharmaceuticals. Why not outlaw harmful 'treatments'?
I disagree, in seeing it as overreach.
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| | | 1205 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 13:46
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I'd like to know exactly what qualifies as “reparative therapy”.
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| | | 1206 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 13:47
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Are exorcisms outlawed in any states?
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| | | 1207 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 14:52
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Astrology actually harms an individual
It hasn't done too much apparent harm to Nancy Reagan.
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| | | 1208 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 15:22
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If this law was challenged, is there any way that it would hold up under freedom of speech? We might think that pray away the gay is pointless, but don't the people have the right to still say the words in a private setting?
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| | | 1209 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 15:27
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Government certainly has the right to regulate medical treatments, so I don't think that "freedom of speech" applies.
Whether they should in this case, rather than just pointing out how moronic "reparative therapy" is as an actual medical treatment, is open to discussion.
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| | | 1210 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 15:53
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When it comes to psychiatric treatments, however, the government is on much less solid ground.
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| | | 1211 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 16:09
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I don't know that I'd agree with that assessment.
Either:
1. it's a medical treatment (in which case it's clearly something that can be regulated), or
2. it isn't, in which case it's much more protected under free speech, but you can't call it a medical treatment for a disorder, because that would be fraud.
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| | | 1212 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 16:52
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I dont think Frick, one could hold it as freedom of speech, when there are fees applied and the intent is to be "curative". Freedom of Speech doesnt allow me to sell snake oil and call it a cure for male baldness, so I dont see it applying here either,
bibA, I think you misread what I said about astrology not causing harm. That is the distinction I make between that, and repairative therapy. Astrology is harmless, where the repairative therapy, has led to suicides and has caused very real, psychological damage.
If any challenge MIGHT stand, one could potentially argue freedom of religion. Of course, that argument doesnt hold with the religious argument for polygamy, so......
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| | | 1213 | Boldwin
ID: 307293121 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 22:33
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where the repairative therapy, has led to suicides and has caused very real, psychological damage. - Sarge
OMG...unlike gayness?
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| | | 1214 | Perm Dude
ID: 577543120 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 22:36
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The medical profession already has a number of processes in place to test and encourage the use of good therapies (including the licensing of people in their own profession).
This is an absolutely stupid thing for the legislature to stick their nose into. They simply aren't in the position to make these kind of judgments.
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| | | 1215 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 22:40
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gay B, for the umpteenth time..is neither a choice, nor a disease. Your belief that it is, does not make it so. No more than folks like yourself in the past, believing that alcoholism was a character flaw were correct. Or that frontal lobotomies, were a proper method of correcting behavioral problems. As a society, we have moved beyond those archaic beliefs. We finally, are moving past this one as well.
And I totally disagree with you PD. Government has every right, to intervene, and ensure that snake oil is taken off the market.
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| | | 1216 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 22:56
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"OMG...unlike gayness? "
Yes, YG: exactly unlike gayness. Glad you figured it out.
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| | | 1217 | Perm Dude
ID: 577543120 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 22:58
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Yes, they have the right. They also have lots and lots of other rights they should not be doing either. You miss the point when I say that this "is an absolutely stupid thing for the legislature to stick their nose into" by replying that government has the right to stick their nose into this.
Mucking up science is nothing new for government. But if you think they should do so now, then you have no fall back position when the GOP demonizes climate science, because you've decided that the scientists need not have the last word once the legislature is really, really sure of themselves on a topic on which they should be silent and let the science do what is is supposed to do.
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| | | 1218 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Aug 31, 2012, 23:14
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On the contrary PD. Science HAS spoken, in rendering the practice moot and lacking in any scientific basis. All the legislature is doing here, is taking what science has determined, and precluding false prophets from profiting off a practice which runs contrary TO science.
There is no clinical basis, supporting repairative therapy. No clinical trials, no controlled studies, no factual basis, for continuing the practice. It has if anything, been disproven. And just as pharmaceuticals, proven to NOT function are forcibly yanked from the market, so to was this practice in the State of California.
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| | | 1219 | Boldwin
ID: 307293121 Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:22
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As you can see, it's not just end of life care they intend on denying you.
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| | | 1220 | Tree
ID: 53555306 Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:25
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Re 1213 - being gay isn't what leads some gays toward suicide. rather, it's the way certain segments of society treat them.
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| | | 1221 | Boldwin
ID: 307293121 Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:57
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And anyone who cares can learn all they need to know about the causes and treatment of arrested development at the NARTH website...arrested development which was well understood back when gay activists rioted and took over the APA.
This issue was hashed out and debated to death in hundreds of posts earlier in this thread.
This issue is well understood by many therapists successfully treating gays and it isn't understood at all by today's APA which refuses to look at the results of arrested development therapy.
This issue is well understood by hundreds of thousands who have advanced past arrested development. Large conferences of the recovered put the credibility of the APA to severe repudiation.
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| | | 1222 | Tree
ID: 2888111 Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 12:28
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NARTH has been debunked so many times, it's pathetic.
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| | |
| | | 1224 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 18:28
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Good for them!
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| | | 1225 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 00:56
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post 1088, Baldwin. Oh, and thank you so very much for firewood at such an auspicious moment. 2010 was just for starters.
this would be yet another prediction you got wrong. in lots of ways.
the "firewood" was so great, Chick-Fil-A backed down. (i'm sure you'll twist this onto someone forcing Chick-Fil-A's hand, and well, you'd be right. The people spoke, and the corporation decided on equality and morality)
post 1115, Baldwin - Would you like to save freedom and the preserve the constitution? | | | v Is it Sunday ---> no ---> Eat at Chick-Fil-A
so, now that they're doing all that, i presume we'll see you at your local Chick-Fil-A?
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| | | 1226 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 01:27
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I guess they were afraid another monumental run on their food would break out, so they took a step to prevent it.
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| | | 1227 | Tree
ID: 57842011 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:05
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or, they actually realized that decent people are accepting of all, and perhaps more sinister, that one day run didn't really make up for the overall lost business...i probably know 100+ people personally who stopped eating at Chick-Fil-A.
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| | | 1228 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:38
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Yeah, we're keeping notes on who donates in promotion of homosexuality too.
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| | | 1229 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 12:45
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Allowing equality, is not promoting anything EXCEPT....golly....equality.
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| | | 1230 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:11
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I'm not trying to start a boycott and I don't actually know of one, but Google, Amazon.com and McDonalds get as little of my money as possible. I give them too much based on clicks as it is, but I'll avoid android products. I'll buy a book from the link the author recommends if possible. Many Wendy's were quite sympathetic.
I remember.
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| | | 1231 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:32
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The head of Obama's supposed anti-bullying campaign: Dan SavageSavage lectures teens in high schools and colleges around the country on the benefits of “non-monogamy,” the occasional “three-way” tryst and any other disease-spreading sexual impulse that might cross their impressionable, hormone-charged young minds (and many they can’t yet imagine).
Well, recently, rather than just shocking his teenaged audience with vulgar, sophomoric psychobabble as usual, Savage apparently thought it’d be fun to bully the kids with whom he disagreed.
While addressing a crowd of hundreds of high schoolers at the National High School Journalism Convention, Savage launched into an unhinged anti-Christian diatribe. He advised the teens to “ignore the [bulls–t] in the Bible” about sexual morality. “We ignore [bulls–t] in the Bible about all sorts of things,” he barked.
He then walked through a list of the same tired left-wing talking points about the Bible – long ago discredited – covering shellfish, virginity, etc. “The Bible is a radically pro-slavery document,” he said (anti-Christian trash we’ve come to expect from the secular Left).
But when a hundred or more kids got up and began to walk out on Savage’s anti-Christian rant, the 47-year-old tough guy turned his hostility toward them. “It’s funny to someone who is on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible how pansya–ed people react when you push back,” he mocked. Some of the young girls were seen leaving in tears.
“It took a real dark, hostile turn, certainly, as I saw it,” teacher Rick Tuttle told CNN. “It became very hostile toward Christianity, to the point that many students did walk out, including some of my students.
“They felt that they were attacked … a very pointed, direct attack on one particular group of students. It’s amazing that we go to an anti-bullying speech and one group of students is picked on in particular, with harsh, profane language.”
But the only thing surprising is that anyone is surprised. Dan Savage is known in Christian circles as “the gay Fred Phelps.” Phelps, of course, is the similarly cartoonish Westboro Baptist “preacher” who gained notoriety by protesting military funerals with his incestuous brood of pseudo-Christian haters. Savage is Phelps’ photo negative. Whereas Phelps’ hateful mantra is “God hates fags,” Savage’s central message is “I hate God and anyone who loves Him.”
Savage’s primary claim to fame is that he formed the website “Santorum.com,” to create a “Google bomb” that would smear the good name of former senator and presidential candidate Rick Santorum. On the site he redefined the senator’s last name, Santorum, using language so vile and repulsive that I won’t repeat it. When Christian advocate and Americans for Truth founder Peter LaBarbera asked Savage to take down the website, Savage responded, “I’m asking Peter LaBarbera to go f–k himself.”
Savage also once bragged that he licked the doorknobs at former Republican presidential candidate Gary Bauer’s campaign office in hopes of giving Mr. Bauer the flu.
Savage told the Daily Pennsylvanian in 2006 that Carl Romanelli, a U.S. senate candidate he didn’t like, “should be dragged behind a pickup truck until there’s nothing left but the rope.” In the same interview, he opined: “Mr. Romanelli should go f–k himself.” He also once said on HBO that he “wished all Republicans were f–king dead.”
Yep, this deviant troglodyte is the face of the left’s anti-bullying efforts. I’ve often said that those wonderfully “tolerant” liberals – the self-styled opponents of “hate” and “bigotry” – are the most intolerant, hateful bigots among us.
Thanks for proving my point, Dan. - Board Chairman of Americans For Truth About Homosexuality, Matt Barber
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| | | 1232 | Tree
ID: 158342012 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 13:41
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and any other disease-spreading sexual impulse...
it's really difficult to take seriously something that starts off with obvious biases and mis-truths such as the one above.
never mind the absolute blatant lie in the headline. Savage isn't the head of Obama's anything...
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| | | 1233 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 16:06
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"I'm not trying to start a boycott and I don't actually know of one, but" ... if I might finish the quote more accurately, "I'm personally boycotting a bunch of companies because I don't like their views, after lambasting people who disagree with me for doing exactly the same thing, thereby proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that anything I say about ethics is pure lip service, but you already knew that."
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| | | 1234 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 16:30
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Here is the coordination between the Obama administration and Dan Savage regarding a school anti-bullying campaign, including the administration fundraising for Savage.
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| | | 1236 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 17:29
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1234, does not prove this line from 1231:
The head of Obama's supposed anti-bullying campaign{emphasis added}
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| | | 1237 | Tree
ID: 418152017 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 18:23
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Here is the coordination between the Obama administration and Dan Savage regarding a school anti-bullying campaign, including the administration fundraising for Savage.
what exactly does that link have to do with the posted lie proclaiming Savage to be the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign?
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| | | 1238 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:19
|
what exactly does that link have to do with the posted lie proclaiming Savage to be the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign?
About as much as the Breitbart lie proclaiming Bill Maher an anti-Islam filmaker.
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| | | 1239 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:39
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Yeah, 'It Get's Better' is a program visiting your school discussing homosexuality, and Obama is facilitating it including raising cash for it.
Raise your hands if you've actually never heard of it.
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| | | 1240 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:40
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There might be a worthwhile discussion about whether the president should speak on behalf of (and fund-raise for, if Breitbart is to be believed on that) a project that is headed by a figure like Savage, as noble as the work might be.
I think I'd be comfortable enough if President Bush taped a message on behalf of a similarly honorable outreach project or charity run by Ann Coulter, who seems like a fair comparison to Savage in this case.
But it's not worth the probably exhaustive effort necessary to get the discussion past the fact that President Obama does not have an anti-bullying campaign.
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| | | 1241 | Boldwin
ID: 15821200 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:41
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That would be the 'bully anyone who still has morals' campaign.
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| | | 1242 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:42
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Yes, precisely.
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| | | 1243 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 19:45
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'It Get's Better' is a program visiting your school discussing homosexuality
No. Neither is it "Obama's campaign" nor is it what you say here.
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| | | 1244 | Tree
ID: 418152017 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 20:12
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Yeah, 'It Get's Better' is a program visiting your school discussing homosexuality, and Obama is facilitating it including raising cash for it.
which still has nothing to do with Dan Savage being the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign.
and "It Gets Better" discusses a lot more than homosexuality. to say that's all it discusses is to be dishonest.
it discusses the bullying of not only homosexual teenagers, but ALSO teenagers who were bullied because their peers *thought* they were homosexuals, regardless of whether they truly are or not.
and regardless of your stance on homosexuality, any program that can prevent or reduce the bullying of our children is a good program.
and the numerous synagogues and churches (not to mention religious-based colleges and universities) who have contributed to the project also believe the same. anyone with a solid grasp of Judeo-Christian ethics would understand that.
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| | | 1245 | Boldwin
ID: 38202019 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 20:29
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“You have a partner in the White House,” Mr. Obama said.
The conference was an outgrowth of an effort among six cabinet agencies that began last August with a session at the Education Department to promote cooperation between government and nongovernment players, including the National PTA and MTV.
To disseminate information from the government, the president announced a new Web site, StopBullying.gov. In October, the Education Department’s Office of Civil Rights sent educators a letter explaining their legal duties to protect students from bullying based on race, ethnicity, disability or sexuality. In December, Education Secretary Arne Duncan, who heads the administration’s efforts, sent guidance to state officials on resources and best practices. I don't know behind what imagined technicality you guys are hiding, but this is Obama's 'bully the moral kids' campaign so deal with it.
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| | | 1246 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 20:54
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OK, there's something I didn't know. Not sure if campaign is the best word for it but I can go with that.
So where do I read about Dan Savage being in charge of this?
As far as I can tell, a controversial new media celebrity organizes a noble and highly popular ongoing outreach effort joined by businesses and schools and churches and governments and municipalities around the world and the White House decides it can contribute to the effort as well.
What Boldy doesn't understand (or I suspect now understands after a bit of research and will choose to parse his language carefully going forward to avoid eating crow) is that It Gets Better is pretty much just a Youtube outreach effort. There are no traveling school presentations and while Savage did speak to a high school about bullying, it was not an It Gets Better event, it was a journalism conference.
There's absolutely nothing about it that could be considered close to bullying by any sane person. But Boldy was suckered by the Breitbart article disingenuously associating an international effort that is very likely saving teenage lives with the occasionally offensive rantings of the guy who created it.
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| | | 1247 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:02
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...but this is Obama's 'bully the moral kids' campaign so deal with it.
Then you maintain, it is moral kids who bully others based on race, ethnicity, disability or sexuality.
Is that correct?
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| | | 1248 | Boldwin
ID: 38202019 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:29
|
MITH
Yeah, imagine the unfairness of associating an organization with the guy who created it and represents it in speaking engagements.
These conservatives will stoop to anything.
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| | | 1249 | Tree
ID: 418152017 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:31
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“You have a partner in the White House,” Mr. Obama said.
The conference was an outgrowth of...
and again. This still has nothing to do with Dan Savage being the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign. Because he's not.
from the wikipedia article discussing it: It Gets Better is an Internet-based project founded in the United States by Dan Savage and his husband[1] Terry Miller[2] on September 21, 2010, in response to the suicides of teenagers who were bullied because they were gay or because their peers suspected that they were gay.
the best part about the article Baldwin linked to in 1245 doesn't mention Dan Savage or the It Gets Better campaign once.
NOT ONCE.
so, please, let us know when you do find some truth to your claim that Dan Savage is the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign. even a small kernel of truth would nice.
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| | | 1250 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:33
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All those gayboys look the same, tree.
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| | | 1251 | Boldwin
ID: 38202019 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:39
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Yeah, no connection between the founder and face of 'bully moral people' and the six cabinet agencies coordinating the effort.
None whatsoever. What was I thinking?
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| | | 1252 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:40
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You weren't, in this case. But keep digging.
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| | | 1253 | Boldwin
ID: 38202019 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:42
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I already nailed it. Stay in denial.
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| | | 1254 | Tree
ID: 418152017 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 21:54
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I already nailed it. Stay in denial.
back it up Baldwin. you have shown NOTHING that makes Dan Savage is the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign. your link didn't even mention Savage or the It Gets Better campaign.
LMAO.
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| | |
| | | 1256 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 22:26
|
at 13:32 B makes a post, with an assertion contained therein.
Over the next 6 hours, he is repeatedly challenged on the truth of his assertion, and he repeatedly denies to respond. He simply CANT, admit that he is in error, or wrong, or over stating his case. He is incapable of it.
Where B, is your Christian humility? You wont address the fallacy of your earlier assertion, will you address the absence of your humility?
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| | | 1257 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 22:33
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imagine the unfairness of associating an organization with the guy who created it and represents it
Thats not what I said. I said the problem is associating the effort with the occasional offensive comments he says. And I've already said there might be a worthwhile discussion there.
He's certainly no more offensive than Coulter. And as I also said, if she ever found it the black hole behind her lungs to organize such a wholly positive outreach effort, I wouldn't take much issue with my president supporting that, either.
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| | | 1258 | Boldwin
ID: 38202019 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 22:34
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What does Savage have to do to prove it to you? Ride Obama like a Pony thru your livingroom?
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| | | 1259 | Mith
ID: 18451815 Thu, Sep 20, 2012, 22:35
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There's no time for humility when you're busy hating on queers an liberals.
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| | | 1260 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 00:43
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I actually hope Baldwin doesn't disengage his fingers for a moment, stop, think, and say something along the lines of "Gee Willikers! I've been snookered by that truth-stretching Breitbart fellow!"
Because if that happened, the world would end in some sort of matter/anti-matter love-fest.
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| | | 1261 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 00:48
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It is terribly easy, to be a "conservative" these days. You dont have to think, you dont ave to know what is true and what isnt. You dont even ave to pretend to care. All you gotta do, is blame "the left" and call them names like "communist", "socialist","marxist", "self loathing" and VIOLA! Republican!
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| | | 1262 | Boldwin
ID: 38202019 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 00:55
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All it takes to be a liberal is earplugs and lots of snickering.
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| | | 1263 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 01:39
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We snicker because of the twisting you are doing, in response to your assertion: The head of Obama's supposed anti-bullying campaign: Dan Savage. This reminds me of a lot of wild Glen Beck-like "connections" that disappear when looked at by those who aren't suffering the fever dreams of what passes for conservative thought these days.
Savage is not the head of "Obama's anti-bullying campaign." Really, it can't get more simple than that.
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| | | 1264 | Tree
ID: 53840219 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 10:59
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I don't know how much more integrated "It Gets Better" could be with StopBullying.gov
Do I have to catch them In flagrante delicto?
nope.
but when you make claims such as Dan Savage being the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign, you need to back it up.
you've shown various things that are unrelated to Savage being the head of Obama's anti-bullying campaign.
Savage is also in charge of the anti-bullying campaign from the following people and companies: Steve Jobs Apple Cisco GM Facebook Google LinkedIn Microsoft Sony Yahoo BYU Hebrew Union College MIT Yale a dozen MLB teams
and an incredibly diverse group of others...
Savage is not the head of "Obama's anti-bullying campaign. This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and no matter how much you attempt to repeat a lie, it doesn't make it the truth.
time to move on. your lie has been exposed numerous times. i'm done with this particular aspect of some people's hatred for homosexuals.
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| | | 1265 | Boldwin
ID: 378202110 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 11:33
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He is only not the head of it, if you insist on raising the bar beyond founder and prime mover, without whom the international movement would not have happened at all.
If it's not a company with his signature at the bottom of everyone's check he must not be head? Give me a break.
If he doesn't have an official cabinet position and an office down the hall from the president he can't be called head? Puhleeze.
He's as much the head as Gandhi was head of the Indian Independence Movement and not quite as much a head as the capo di tutti.
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| | | 1266 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Fri, Sep 21, 2012, 11:36
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You really have to ask yourself why this is so important to you. And why you'd decide it is OK for kids to bully, so long as their targets seem gay.
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| | |
| | | 1268 | Boldwin
ID: 548462415 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 16:57
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You really have to ask yourself why this is so important to you.
You called me a liar. When I very obviously was not.
And I have several people on the forum engaged in that particular big lie on an industrial scale.
So yes it matters to me a lot.
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| | | 1269 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 16:59
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He said you were wrong. He didnt call you a liar. And you were and are wrong...Savage is NOT the head of "Obamas anti-bullying campaign".
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| | | 1270 | Boldwin
ID: 548462415 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:19
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See #1265
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| | | 1271 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:19
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Exactly.
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| | | 1272 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:35
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He is not the head of OBAMA's anti-bullying campaign B. The group Savage heads, is NOT, President Obama's group. (Note the possessive. It is not 'his' (the president's) in ownership)
Its really simple B...you were wrong here too. Why is that so difficult for you?
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| | | 1273 | Boldwin
ID: 548462415 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:43
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It's a movement. Obama owns it. Savage owns it. What political benefit do expect to get out of separating those two joined at the hip moving forces?
Of course, this is just any excuse to add some schmutz your latest 'big lie' campaign over some imagined technicality.
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| | | 1274 | Perm Dude
ID: 56832185 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:47
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So because they are each a part of this "movement" then you can say that Savage is head of "Obama's anti-bullying campaign" without the need to worry weather this is, in fact, true?
Isn't this the kind of "bearing false witness" that is bandied about in some Book I've read about...?
And when, exactly, did the Right become such relativists?
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| | | 1276 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 17:59
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No B, the question is...why do you insist on propogating a lie?
Savage heads a group. Obama did not originate said group. Obama did not purchase the rights to said group. Obama is not the owner of said group. Savage heads the group, not Obama. Thus, Savage is not the head of Obama's ANYTHING.
Simple logic, simple English. Use words as they ARE defined, not as you choose to redefine them, on any given day.
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| | |
| | | 1279 | Tree
ID: 53555306 Fri, Oct 12, 2012, 11:40
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RIP Matthew Shepard. 14 years ago you were brutally murdered for being yourself.
The battle for equality and against hate continues.
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| | | 1280 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 13, 2012, 20:39
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Gutsy move
Soon after Kurek decided to go under cover and "come out" as a gay man.
"I came out to everybody! My friends, family, everyone," Kurek told HuffPost blogger George Elerick. "I just knew that I needed to understand, as realistically as possible, how the label of gay might change my life. The social experiment itself demanded all or nothing."
...
While Kurek claims that after he "came out" nearly 95 percent of his friends stopped talking to him, it was his mom who initially took the experiment the hardest.
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| | |
| | | 1282 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Wed, Oct 17, 2012, 11:06
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@AnnCoulter Ann Coulter Last Thursday was national "coming out" day. This Monday is national "disown your son" day.
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| | | 1286 | Pancho Villa
ID: 59645318 Fri, Oct 19, 2012, 21:44
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Awesome find Sarge.
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| | | 1290 | Tree
ID: 281140617 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 18:40
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35 Years...and they can finally get married...
i'd really love to hear whatever inane argument the "sanctity of marriage" folks would say against these people marrying. (like the serial adulterer Newt Gingrich, for example).
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| | | 1291 | Boldwin
ID: 51144621 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 22:48
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No you wouldn't. You'd really like those folks censored.
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| | | 1292 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 22:54
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BUZZZ wrong again. It would actually e entertaining, to hear the fella who cheated on 2 of his wifes, with a subsequent wife to be, explain about the Holy sanctity of an institution which predates his religion.
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| | | 1293 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Dec 06, 2012, 23:12
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| | | 1295 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 00:25
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See, the point at which they SELL the weddings? That's the point at which they're a business and not a religious organization.
Now, I know you hate gubmint telling you your BUSINESS has to serve gays and negroes and womenfolk and not send them to the other water fountain, but tough titties.
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| | | 1296 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 00:30
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We're just trying to be faithful Christians.
That is not true. At no point in the Bible, does God or Christ, forbid gay marriage. It is not brought forth, at all.
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| | | 1297 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 01:46
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Somehow, the far right have themselves convinced that they have the religious "right" to act un-christian.
Yes, and you bigoted restaurant owners (I'm looking at you, Dennys) have to serve blacks, even though seeing others enjoy such basic things as eating, or committing to each other, makes you feel icky.
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| | | 1298 | Boldwin
ID: 151140716 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 03:25
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If you believe people should be forced by the government to do things against their religion or lose their jobs, you are not American.
You do not understand the concept.
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| | | 1299 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 09:47
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It isnt against the Christian religion Boldwin. It is against the self-righteous interpretation some hold of the Bible, yes. However, to my understanding, no Church is required to perform a marriage ceremony, period. They choose to. They can still, choose not to. Who can NOT choose not to, is one who provides the ceremony for fee, as a public commodity if you will. The Las Vegas Chapels for ex, were same sex marriage an option there, would not I think, be permitted to discriminate and say no, we wont do that. In the 50s and 60s, there were southern Churches who wouldnt wed a black with a white. Hell, recently B, there was a church who wouldnt do that. THAT, is not religious freedom. THAT, is racist bigotry and THAT (bigotry), is not protected by the 1st Amendment. Dont call your hatred, religion. It isnt. And I doubt, Christ will be very forgiving for doing so,
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| | | 1300 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 10:06
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Exactly so, sarge. No one is being forced to perform a marriage they don't want. They are being forced to do what they say they want to do to everyone without regard to whether their customers are gay or not.
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| | | 1301 | Tree
ID: 421111810 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 11:16
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No you wouldn't. You'd really like those folks censored.
no, i'll say it again: i'd really love to hear whatever inane argument the "sanctity of marriage" folks would say against these people marrying. (like the serial adulterer Newt Gingrich, for example).
as usual, instead of actually responding to THAT point, you started a different one.
the only censorship being done here is self-censorship, and you're doing it by refusing to answer questions posed to you.
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| | | 1302 | Boldwin
ID: 36110813 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 14:15
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Making money for it has no bearing on whether it violates your religious conscience.
Sarge makes fun of these concerns like no one will be harmed, and then the second he gets his way he's all about getting every religious person to accept Sarge's religious conscience as his own or perish by the economic sword.
He might as well be the taliban in reverse running around forcing conversions on pain of economic death.
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| | | 1303 | Boldwin
ID: 36110813 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 14:20
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Tree
No one...wants to see...us communicate.
We've been told time and again we do nothing but harm the forum when you and I get in a spitting contest.
It's a great big vibrant forum that can get along fine without me or so we are told. Go find someone else who cares to interact with you.
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| | | 1304 | DWetzel
ID: 25740420 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 15:32
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"Making money for it has no bearing on whether it violates your religious conscience."
Well, of course it does.
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| | | 1305 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Sat, Dec 08, 2012, 16:45
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1302...truth be told B..."Taliban in reverse", is precisely what you and the conservative rightwing self proclaimed Christians, have been for the past 30 years. The way *I* read, interpret and apply the Bible,...allows you to do so as you see fit, me as I see fit and PD as he sees fit.
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| | | 1306 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Sun, Dec 09, 2012, 15:32
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No one...wants to see...us communicate.
cop out, because you've got nothing.
if we discuss the issues, and don't take pot shots, there's no issue.
but you're too afraid to discuss the issues without resorting to personal attacks.
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| | | 1307 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3310162612 Mon, Dec 10, 2012, 14:32
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Here is a photo of the couple's ceremony in bili's post 1293. This intense rush to get licenses and have marriage ceremonies is mind blowing.

These two have waited 35 years to get married. I would like to apologize for making you wait so long.
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| | | 1308 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Mon, Dec 10, 2012, 15:09
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They are clearly immoral deviants who will burn in eternal hell fire.
I had a good friend who won the lottery and married yesterday down at City Hall. She and her wife have two great kids, and have learned more from her about good parenting even than from another friend who actually teaches good parenting skills. It's about time they got the chance to be a family under the eyes of the state.
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| | | 1309 | Tree
ID: 1311231015 Mon, Dec 10, 2012, 16:23
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They are clearly immoral deviants who will burn in eternal hell fire.
even worse, all those people at their wedding are gonna get gay by being so close to them.
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| | |
| | | 1311 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 01:23
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I can only imagine the torture it must have been for those poor workers at Woolworths to have to serve those Negros. The agony must have dwarfed the shame of not being able to have lunch at a counter because of your skin color.
Sorry, Baldy. I feel your pain.
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| | | 1312 | Boldwin
ID: 3211181118 Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 06:46
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Just keep imagining there is some equivalency. There isn't. Religious people with morals are the persecuted minority today, not the 'gay chic' culture which isn't under any assault whatsoever. Gays don't have any trouble getting any service they seek. They are the ones seeking out the religious minority to coerce them to break their consciences.
If it's equivalency you seek, imagine a religious person seeking a job in a world seeking to break them of their minority views. Imagine a religious person seeking a seat at the media lunch counter without being assaulted.
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| | | 1313 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 08:33
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Hold on a sec - I'll get the hairshirt out for you, you poor persecuted minority.
You do realize over 90% of this nation believes in God, right? Try running for office as an atheist.
And gay couples are not allowed to marry or receive the benefits of marriage in most of the country, right?
You have a serious reality problem.
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| | | 1314 | PV in GJ
ID: 1010151016 Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 09:31
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I'm interested to hear this new definition of persecuted minority. And what about non-religious people with morals? Are they a persecuted minority as well?
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| | | 1315 | Tree
ID: 361122129 Wed, Dec 12, 2012, 10:22
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Religious people with morals are the persecuted minority today, not the 'gay chic' culture which isn't under any assault whatsoever. Gays don't have any trouble getting any service they seek
this is such malarky, it feels like it's ripped from the pages of the Onion.
the list of services homosexuals are denied is long. Bili named the main one, and there are many off shoots of that.
you do realize that this entire thread is about a a right gays don't have (everywhere, yet), that being the right to get married legally?
i think you live in your own weird little insulated igloo.
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| | | 1318 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 14:54
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B will pulling his hair out.
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| | | 1319 | Boldwin
ID: 1902939 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 15:21
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Tell me something I don't know. Can't leave this state soon enuff.
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| | | 1320 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 15:43
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The Caymans?
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| | | 1321 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 15:55
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Costa Rica?
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| | | 1322 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 15:58
|
Somalia: The libertarian endgame.
Maybe not--it is full of Muslims there and who wants to be next to that and get, well, Muslim all over themselves?
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| | | 1323 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 16:01
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CANADA!!!!
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| | | 1324 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 16:38
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Canada has socialized medicine.
also, it's filled with Canadians.
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| | | 1325 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 16:40
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True..but then he can be righteous and decline the free medical care AND complain about all the unnecessary border security, keeping him from coming back into the states to pay for his medical care out of pocket! Conservatives dream....be self righteous and complain, all at once!!!!
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| | | 1326 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 17:05
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Re: 1322
Somalia is a anarchists dream, not a libertarians.
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| | | 1327 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 17:46
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Yeah, the problem with looking at other countries which have the same or better standard of living is that they are all more socialist.
Frick: In this case, the mutual dream of no centralize government intersects.
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| | | 1328 | sarge33rd
ID: 12554167 Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 17:47
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Yeah, the problem with looking at other countries which have the same or better standard of living is that they are all more socialist.
Yeah, funny thing that.
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| | | 1329 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 09:23
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Somalia has no government at any level. And Libertarians don't want no central government, but they do want limited central government.
National defense = central government Education = not central government
I think that most Libertarians would see this as a State issue, but I disagree and think it needs to be a national issue. It causes, or will cause, to many legal issues if states are not going to accept other states marriage certificates.
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| | | 1330 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, Jan 04, 2013, 11:51
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I ageee, mostly for those who move between states, and those who are federal employees.
It'll be interesting to see how SCOTUS comes down on things.
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| | | 1331 | Boldwin
ID: 609622 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 13:52
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THE pre-eminent [for liberals] UK newspaper The Guardian goes NAMBLA...as predicted.
“terminal nonjudgmentalism”
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| | | 1332 | Tree
ID: 131137414 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 14:10
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you didn't actually read the piece, obviously.
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| | | 1333 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 14:35
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the article brings up difficult question, how do you "treat" some one who is genetically set to be a criminal. Just as you can not "fix" a homosexual, prison would not "fix" a pedophile.
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| | | 1334 | DWetzel
ID: 5411161018 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 14:43
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First of all, I hope you're not genuinely conflating homosexuality and pedophilia. I don't THINK you are... but if you are, ugh.
Second: it's really pretty simple. People have urges all the times. I would quite often like to slug the idiot sitting behind me at the football game who's swearing and spilling beer on me and all that. Completely natural urge.
But, to quote John Goodman, this isn't 'Nam. There are rules. Punish people who can't follow those rules and thereby injure other people.
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| | | 1335 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 14:50
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pedophilia Tree, is not a simple urge. Its a hardwired attraction to youth. Its a crime, yes. As it should be. But not all things criminal, are choices exercised by the offender.
Psychological tests measuring arousal by showing photos of fully clothed persons....will tend to show a pedophile with a reaction to whatever age group attracts them, and not so much to adults. While a "normal" person will respond to the adult photos, and not the childrens. When measuring things like skin temp, perspiration, blood flow etc, these are not generally voluntarily manipulated metrics.
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| | | 1336 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 14:51
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sorry...should have been addressed to DW, not Tree...my bad.
Lastly, it would not overly shock me, if we one day call pedophilia a disease, just as we do now with alcoholism.(doesnt make it treatable. Just reclassifies it to a minor extent)
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| | | 1337 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 15:31
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I don't think if you ask homosexual that there attraction to same gender as only an "urge". The point is you can't "treat" people sexual preference(strait, gay, asexual,...) and if true there is genetic sexual preference for children, then what should be done?
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| | | 1338 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 15:33
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i pretty much double posted sarges' response.
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| | | 1339 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 15:35
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#1337: Nothing, unless they commit a crime.
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| | | 1340 | DWetzel
ID: 5411161018 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 15:43
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1339: Bingo. To be clear: having sexual urges toward children: icky. Very icky. But not criminal. ACTING on those urges: both very icky AND criminal. I'm quite sure (having put exactly zero research into the matter) that there are a number of people who have sexual urges toward children who do not go around actually molesting them. I have no interest in "doing anything about" those people.
I mean, it's basically criminalize the actual behavior and not the predisposition, or just go genetic engineering and/or eugenics. Those are your two options. I'm not comfortable going that route. I don't think you should be either.
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| | | 1341 | Tree
ID: 6047714 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 15:47
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i still ponder if Baldwin actually reads the sources. we know he didn't when he praised (and continues to praise) a cop killer.
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| | | 1342 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 15:56
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Agree with your position entirely DW. Just that you indicated you did not think that pedophilia was a comparable "condition" to homosexuality, In truth, they are. Neither, is a choice. Yes, ACTING on it *IS* a choice, absolutely.
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| | | 1343 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 16:04
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I was assuming they had committed a crime, as to question prison is not "treatment" just punishment for being "abnormal". you are using the word "predisposition" but that may not be accurate. You would not say some is predisposition to being gay or straight you would say they "are".
I think there is a whole Pandora's box of ethical questions that are going to come up as we learn more and more about what has genetic causes.
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| | | 1344 | DWetzel
ID: 5411161018 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 16:50
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1342: fair enough.
And, quite obviously (to me), the acting on it is where society's views can (and do, though they haven't always) differ.
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| | | 1345 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 16:58
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That still kind avoids the question do you "treat" a criminal in same way if one crime is genetically caused and one is not? you can not rehabilitate a genetic condition you can only punish. You don't put an insane person in regular prison?
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| | | 1346 | DWetzel
ID: 5411161018 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 18:25
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You're not punishing the genetic condition, that's the point. You're punishing the BEHAVIOR. Plenty of people with the genetic condition don't do the behavior, which is kind of the point.
And yes, part of the concept of imprisonment is that you separate an individual from society for the benefit of society.
I'm comfortable saying that I'm willing to dismiss the concept of trying to make pedophiles not like kids -- which is a different subject than trying to make pedophiles not act out on their impulses.
Warning: bizarre analogy coming.
I'm genetically predisposed to really really like butter pecan ice cream. I may stop in the grocery aisle and stare wistfully through the glass at the buckets of butter pecan ice cream. Were I to actually, say, carjack the butter pecan ice cream delivery truck at gunpoint, I would expect to be sent to jail. Part of my rehabilitation would be to make me understand that carjacking the delivery guy is unacceptable behavior in society no matter how much I like butter pecan ice cream. None of my rehabilitation entails trying to make me not like butter pecan ice cream any more.
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| | | 1347 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Mon, Jan 07, 2013, 18:41
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You can still treat and manage a genetic condition. If you use a disease model in the case of criminal behaviors that arise genetically. Humane separation.
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| | | 1348 | Boldwin
ID: 17051818 Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 20:53
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1) The same people who normalized homosexuality are using the exact same minimization, only being willing to describe pedophilia as unhealthy if the pedophile himself is “markedly distressed” by his own pedophilic activity. By that insane 'light' pedophile Alfred Kinsley was well adjusted when he abused and facilitated pedophilic abuse on a massive scale.
2) People accept the 'research' of pro-pedophilia scientists like pedophile Alfred Kinsley and his 'scientific' progeny at the risk of losing the truth.
2) Pedophilia is overwhelmingly the result of tragically having been repeatedly molested themselves. There isn't any compelling reason to believe homosexuality is genetic, [just look at twin studies] and based on the obvious common cause of pedophilia, being a victim of abuse, there is even less reason to suggest a genetic role.
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| | | 1349 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Tue, Jan 08, 2013, 21:41
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none of the above post indicates you actually read your own links - it's pretty clear that you rarely do.
if you'd like to read more on child sex abuse, here's another source.
now of course, you'll deny this being authentic, but considering your adoration for cop killers and your comparisons of homosexuals with pedophiles, you're not exactly in a position to make that determination.
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| | | 1350 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 09:27
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Maybe I need help, but don't most people have some illegal thoughts? But, most people also understand that their actions have consequences and don't act on them.
Could we possibly make the world safer if we could identify genetic conditions that lead to something like pedophilia?
Looking back to another article posted here recently, I wonder what the correlation with lead in blood levels would be with people who were pedophiles and other types of criminals.
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| | | 1351 | Tree
ID: 1910562515 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 10:09
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But, most people also understand that their actions have consequences and don't act on them.
exactly.
but to some people like Baldwin, homosexuality should be a crime. thusly, equating them with pedophiles is an easy and cheap way to show that, in their warped minds.
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| | | 1352 | Boldwin
ID: 17051818 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 11:38
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Frick
People have little control what bird gets caught in their hair and all the control they need to keep it from building a nest.
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| | | 1353 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 14:34
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Could we possibly make the world safer if we could identify genetic conditions that lead to something like pedophilia?
I doubt you will get an answer to that since that question does not have neat answer that fits into most peoples mind sets. Its the same reason you would see guns banned before you ever see people screened for killing tendencies.
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| | | 1354 | DWetzel
ID: 5411161018 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 14:58
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"Could we possibly make the world safer if we could identify genetic conditions that lead to something like pedophilia? "
I guess my answer to that question is "depends on what you plan to do with the information".
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| | | 1355 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 22:17
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I can't decide what I think about knowing the information. Part of me thinks that it would be good to know and positive actions could be taken to help or monitor. Another part of me sees potential for terrible things.
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| | | 1356 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 23:55
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Agreed Frick. Given human characteristics, I just dont see a scenario where such information wouldnt be abused.
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| | | 1357 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 11:30
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This whole conversation reminds me of the X-men movies. How long would it take before some politician decides his platform to clean up crime will involve genetics because you can't argue with genetics. Its scientific proof right here. That person is different! Lynch him!!!!!
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| | | 1358 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 12:07
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Exactly Khahan.
Or the Tom Cruise movie where they see future crimes being committed.
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| | | 1359 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 14:02
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In a way this debate is pointless, if the technology exists people will use it. The question you have to ask is would rather have the data out in the open or stuck behind close doors. If you are trying to relate things to movies the better one is Gattaca. Face it with in 20 years the rich will be designing the best version of themselves to be their children, if think the the difference between the rich an poor is big now wait another 50 years.
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| | | 1360 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 14:10
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This can't continue for another 50 years. The rich require the poor to be complicit in the effort and that isn't going to continue, unabated, like we've seen the last 20 years or so.
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| | | 1361 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 14:24
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PD, I don't think you understand what I am saying. People complain about differences between the rich and poor but those differences will pale in comparison when the rich have 50 pts more IQ and lower risk of every major disease.
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| | | 1362 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 14:33
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You mean like they do today?
I don't mean to be flippant, but the extreme differences between rich and poor already exist right now on virtually every measure.
What keeps it in check is the belief among the poor that they are either well enough off themselves or have a legitimate shot at becoming rich themselves.
In the US the second is far more pervasive of a belief, and explains why poor folks often vote for people who have little or no interest in the poor themselves. Specifically, poor white vote in large numbers for the GOP (in the red areas, they vote for the GOP by huge margins).
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| | | 1363 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 14:55
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I don't even know how to respond to you on this, how does any of this have to do with what I said. Are you saying the rich already have 50 pts more IQ pts then the poor? In which case what keeps the poor in check is the same think that keeps cows in check, they don't have the brain power to figure out how to get past the fences.
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| | | 1364 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 14:56
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But this IS the catch-22 of technology. How valuable is the information? To private corporations its a valuable source of income. To politicians its a valuable source for control. To the general population its a valuable source of life saving technology and medical advances.
Which value gets trumped? Which value is more important? Which value is the most dangerous? The answers will not always be as clear-cut as those 3 examples. I always like the approach of let the information go. Don't restrict it. But set up a system for taking care of those who abuse it.
Make it clear - finding out you have a genetic pre-disposition to fondle a little kid is NOT an excuse and does NOT get you out off the hook. But on the same token, having that pre-disposition itself is not a crime and cannot/should not be used as evidence of a crime.
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| | | 1365 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 15:32
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It should probably be noted that the question of genetic disposition toward crime is an old one, but the fact that the bias is know is already being debated--by insurance companies.
As more and more employers require full health work-ups for new employees as a condition of employment, the question of who gets the information is a hot debate. What used to be the tough questions of (for example) "what if testing shows previously-undetected cancer" has been further complicated by "what if DNA testing shows markers for criminal behavior? or being gay? or markers for genetic diseases that the prospective employee's children are likely to have?"
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| | | 1367 | chode
ID: 3610616 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 15:57
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Yes! "Poor folks" are *so* unintelligent compared to "the rich". That's been galling me for years. And of course the GOP has "little or no interest in the poor" - that's the exclusive purview of the benevolent Dems.
Preach on PD, repudiator of offensive generalities, moderator of the Forum, and overall man of the people.
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| | | 1368 | Khahan
ID: 39432178 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 16:10
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PD - the question of genetic pre-disposition towards crime may be old, but the knowledge of dna markers, what they mean, how to interpret them and how they affect us is very new.
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| | | 1369 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 16:21
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Sure. But this has been going on for at least a decade in the insurance field. We're all talking about what the government should do, but this has been batted around quite a bit (with even bigger, unresolved questions) in the private market.
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| | | 1370 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 17:08
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I don't know about IQ, but education is certainly differentiating alarmingly based on wealth.
States, because of destruction of revenue streams, have been forced to increasingly defund their universities, driving up tuition for "state" schools into the realm where poor kids have to make some hard choices. If they want to go into a career other than investment banking, they will end up racking up debt beyond what they can feasibly repay. More and more are deciding it isn't worth the investment in their own education, or they just simply can't be spared. We are going to see a generation that is worse off than the previous one. Our college attainment levels have stagnated, where the rest of the developed world, they know where they should be investing; minds.
They are eating our lunch. There are plenty of smart poor kids. They increasingly have a huge uphill battle to apply those smarts, compared to richer kids.
K-12 is in a similar situation. Rich districts tax themselves to maintain quality, or have school-level PTAs that raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to lower class sizes or hire an art teacher. Or they just go private. Poor kids in poor districts and schools don't have that luxury.
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| | | 1371 | Boldwin
ID: 1054104 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 17:32
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The jobs aren't there even when they get those educations.
And it's not that the revenues have shrunk. You simply can't afford a welfare state and a military. Not in a depression. Not when the world's cadres have spent seventy years convincing everyone America is the 'the worst nation on earth'. There isn't enuff money on earth to cover all that, tho we intend to prove it.
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| | | 1372 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 17:54
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You cant afford to spend more than the next 10 nations combined. Not when you have made massive tax cuts, for the wealthiest in your society AND engaged in 2 deregulated the financials industry.
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| | | 1373 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 19:53
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Yes, the jobs are there. Or they would be if the GOP stopped strangling the economy with austerity.
Yes the revenues have shrunk as a percentage of the GDP. By about 2%. How could they not have, given nothing but tax cuts for the last 20 years?
Last I checked, states don't have a standing army.
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| | | 1374 | Tree
ID: 410531212 Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 14:36
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powerful stuff.
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| | |
| | | 1376 | Tree
ID: 200571615 Wed, Jan 16, 2013, 18:13
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| | | 1378 | Boldwin
ID: 310182420 Thu, Jan 24, 2013, 21:39
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Gay women will put your boyfriend in prison for politically incorrect straight thinking, more likely. Given the trajectory.
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| | | 1381 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 10:14
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While both issues need to be addressed, do we have to mingle them? This seems like a move by the left to be able to smear the right who object to either part of the argument. The right deserves to be mocked for their antiquated ways, but keep the issues separate and work on them individually.
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| | | 1382 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 10:18
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Same sex couple immigrants, in a state allowing and recognizing same-sex marriage, CANT wait for them to be delt with separately.
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| | | 1383 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 11:03
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so sarge you are saying that is better that they make all the immigrants wait? Sarge you would be the first person upset if the GOP is was tagging to problems in the same bill, Frick is right address the issues separately. This is why people hate congress because they do things like this.
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| | | 1384 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 11:17
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No boikin, I am saying it is high time, the GOP get off their high horse re same sex marriage, recognize that it is a battle they have already lost, and quit trying to fight THAT part of immigration reform. Make the immigration reform, apply to all of those immigrants, and not to 'all of them except those gddm homosexual ones".
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| | | 1385 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 12:43
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that is fine they should get off their high horses but the law will fix itself once same-sex marriage is recognized federally. Why pick a fight when you don't have too.
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| | | 1386 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 12:48
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I'm not trying to. I dont want the GOP, to specifically exclude those folks.
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| | | 1387 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 12:52
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IF immigration reform is passed AND it specifically excludes same-sex couples, the repeal of DOMA for ex, does not remedy the immigration exclusion. That exclusion, would still be written into law and codified. I think, think being the operative word, it would require SCOTUS to over-turn DOMA, for it to then become inclusive of other legislation with such specifically worded exclusions written into them.
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| | | 1388 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 13:50
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How many other laws that are similar even bring up same-sex couples specifically? Sarge, you are turning into the anti-Boldwin, minus the tin foil hat. Anything related to the GOP must be inherently evil. These are two separate issues, IMO by linking them Democrats are trying to box the GOP into a corner. If the GOP did something similar you would be taking a 100% opposite approach.
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| | | 1389 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 17:20
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Actually no Frick, I am not linking them. I simply want to ensure the GOP DOESNT link them via exclusion. Sexual orientation, has no plavce being part of an immigration bill. It shouldnt be in the bills language, in any way, shape or form and THAT, is my point.
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| | |
| | | 1391 | Boldwin
ID: 613220 Sat, Feb 02, 2013, 21:03
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Until he sues the religious person who refuses to recognize his relationship.
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| | | 1392 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sat, Feb 02, 2013, 21:14
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That is a public business. Has no right, to discriminate. It is NOT, a religious institution. Been through this B
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| | | 1394 | Frick
ID: 2193319 Fri, Feb 15, 2013, 09:06
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In the baby steps department, Indiana delayed a vote on a bill that would ban gay marriage. Hopefully, the momentum continues to change and equality will be granted to everyone, regardless of sexual preference.
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| | | 1396 | boldwin
ID: 581222411 Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 13:13
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What Sarge means to say: One branch of the government, disobeying it's assigned constitutional role in government, that being to faithfully execute the duly passed laws of the land, is asking another branch of government to join in an unconstitutional act and legislate from the bench.
Guess what, NBC? The president isn't any more the US than the House of Representatives is.
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| | | 1397 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 14:32
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Hey Boldy? The very JOB of SCOTUS, is to make constitutional/unconstitutional rulings. You friggin moron.
Conservatives...opposed Abolition, Conservatives...opposed Womens Suffrage, Conservatives...opposed Civil Rights Act, Conservatives...oppose Marriage Equality.
Insanity---doing the same thing over and over and over, while anticipating a different result.
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| | | 1398 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 14:45
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Now, now, sarge--you know you are preaching to someone not interested.
The fact is, the laws tell the Executive Branch to do two different things when it comes to gay marriage, and asking to courts to resolve the dichotomy is the definition of "constitutional."
But the Far Right thinks "unconstitutional" means "stuff I really don't like. Especially now that a Democrat is in the White House."
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| | | 1399 | Tree
ID: 35229159 Fri, Mar 15, 2013, 13:41
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Conservative Sen. Rob Portman comes out in favor of gay marriage.
It has to do with another revelation, one deeply personal. His 21-year-old son, Will, is gay.
"I've come to the conclusion that for me, personally, I think this is something that we should allow people to do, to get married, and to have the joy and stability of marriage that I've had for over 26 years. That I want all of my children to have, including our son, who is gay," said Portman.
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| | | 1400 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Fri, Mar 15, 2013, 13:50
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I applaud him for changing his stance, but it is sad that it took such a personal revelation to make it happen. He shouldn't simply want for for his children to be happy, he should all of his constituents to be able to be happy.
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| | | 1401 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 12:46
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Looks like SCOTUS will decline to issue any kind of sweeping decision on same sex marriage (they had the oral arguments for Prop 8 today). It seems likely that they might even bounce it for a lack of standing by the plaintiffs.
This would leave the district court ruling as the operative one (i.e., Prop 8 overturned, and California joins the list of states with full same-sex marriage laws on their books).
New Survey USA poll shows SSM in CA at 67%.
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| | | 1402 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 29542105 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 15:55
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its amazing that 1397 is still up. amazing how liberals cant have a decent argument without insulting people. good job moderators. civility and respect real nice
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| | | 1403 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:33
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amazing how liberals cant have a decent argument without insulting people
Um...
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| | | 1404 | Tree
ID: 10253269 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:35
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1402 was a wonderful contribution to the discussion.
it was a brilliant first post in a discussion 1400+ posts long. I don't know how this thread got along without your prior input.
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| | | 1405 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:38
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Generally I agree with NG - except for the part where he chose to insult a large group of people with an unfair stereotype as he decried Sarge's uncalled-for insult of a single individual.
Personally I would have 1397 deleted for the misinformed insanity definition but I'm not the emperor of Rotoguru.
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| | | 1406 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:40
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Unless that was NG artfully declaring himself a political liberal by employing an uncalled-for insult to make his argument?
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| | | 1407 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:41
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No no, that would be insanity.
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| | | 1408 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:43
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Most American support same-sex marriage
(I've been reading a number of conservatives saying that the majority believe the opposite. This simply isn't true).
Two things that jump out at me about that poll:
-33% of those who support same-sex marriage rights say that they once felt the opposite on this issue.
-support for same-sex marriage rights among Republicans have jumped from 13% to 37% since May 2012 when Obama moved to support ssm. An increase of more than 300% in less than a year in the group least likely to move on this issue.
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| | | 1409 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:45
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Oh - and hooray for gay marriage!
To quote a friend:
Jesus would throw up on his sandals if he knew that people hid behind his name in opposition to offering someone different than you, basic legal rights.
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| | | 1410 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:58
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Didn't someone post an article or did I just read it that the black community has shown similar changes in regards to support to SSM after Obama came out in support of it?
Regardless, it is nice to see that basic human rights are winning out. Love quote in 1409 Mith. While the Old Testament has plenty of hell and brimstone passages, the New Testament typically does not.
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| | | 1413 | Tree
ID: 592492712 Wed, Mar 27, 2013, 20:37
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Bill O'Reilly goes full-on RINO.
The compelling argument is on the side of homosexuals. That’s where the compelling argument is," O'Reilly said. "We’re Americans -- we just want to be treated like everyone else. That’s a compelling argument, and to deny that you’ve got to have a very strong argument on the other side. And the other side hasn’t been able to do anything but thump the Bible.”
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| | | 1414 | Tree
ID: 0271015 Thu, Mar 28, 2013, 01:08
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i am pretty sure Baldwin is frantically trying to find a site that will proclaim this some sort of liberal conspiracy.
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| | | 1415 | Boldwin
ID: 323259 Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 10:02
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The voices of tolerance.
They aren't looking for a piece of paper. Oh no.
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| | | 1416 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 10:10
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Troll post.
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| | | 1417 | Boldwin
ID: 28358512 Fri, Apr 05, 2013, 15:12
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Hate crime, if there is such a thing.
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| | | 1420 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Sat, Apr 13, 2013, 12:21
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Another person who falls into the "thou doth protest to much" cliche.
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| | | 1423 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:13
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Rhode Island makes 10.
Including all of New England.
In Nevada, it seems likely that the legislature will support a state constitutional amendment to reverse the previous constitutional amendment on same sex marriage. This, IMO, is how things will work in many states from here on out--constitutional amendments going back to the voters of those states.
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| | | 1424 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:35
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Someday the entire agenda of 'The Antichrist' will be complete.
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| | | 1425 | Boldwin
ID: 233202518 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 20:36
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"Revaluation of all values!" - Nietzsche
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| | | 1426 | Tree
ID: 543262512 Thu, Apr 25, 2013, 21:57
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sucks when a 4th grader is smarter than you.
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| | | 1427 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 11:46
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The first openly gay player in team sports has come out.
Jason Collins, NBA free agent, is the cover of Sports Illustrated this week.
Oh, and he's deeply religious. Stop using religion as an excuse.
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| | |
| | | 1429 | Boldwin
ID: 4382910 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 12:12
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The 'separating the sheep from the goats' continues at breakneck speed.
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| | | 1430 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 12:21
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1429 - What an appropriate reference for Collins, in which Jesus identifies those who exhibit kindness and mercy as the inheritors of he Kingdom.
37"Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? 38When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
40"The King will answer them, 'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' 41
I may not be a Christian any more but that doesn't mean I don't recognize beauty in scripture when I read it.
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| | | 1431 | boikin
ID: 430211013 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 12:25
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I wonder if he will get signed? It looks like he maybe coming out a bit late to be the first openly gay player to come out, he looks more like the second retired player to come out.
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| | | 1432 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 12:38
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I bet he gets signed.
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| | | 1433 | Boldwin
ID: 4382910 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 12:40
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Wow, the goats are Jesus' brothers in MITH"s world. That is gonna make casting them off into eternal destruction rather painful for him, and yet that is what that passage predicts.
For the record, Jesus brothers in Matt chapters 24-26 are the ones warning people and responding to those warnings is the basis for survival.
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| | | 1434 | Tree
ID: 573452911 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 12:45
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The 'separating the sheep from the goats' continues at breakneck speed.
be sure to be buried in a swimsuit, because you are absolutely correct, and you're not on the side you think you are.
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| | | 1435 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 12:51
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For some, the message of Jesus was the reward for kindness and mercy.
For others, it is the eternal hellfire wrath you face for misinterpreting the wrong bible passage.
Moot point for me since I'm not a believer anyway but for whatever it's worth I'll take the sunshine and rainbows version every time.
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| | | 1436 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 13:03
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For some, Jesus is a stick to bludgeon others for the way they act or think. They are truly getting their reward right now, here on earth.
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| | | 1437 | Boldwin
ID: 4382910 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 13:21
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I would say that Jesus' casting them off to eternal destruction is bludgeoning enuff. I don't mean to add any.
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| | | 1438 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 13:25
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Of course you do. Don't play coy.
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| | | 1444 | Tree
ID: 573452911 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 16:52
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ESPN's Chris Broussard Says Being Gay Is "An Open Rebellion To God", and goes on a tangent about pre-marital sex.
Writer and correspondent LZ Granderson - who is openly gay - then takes Broussard to school "i'd love for their not to be pre-marital sex...but in this country, i'm not allowed to get married."
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| | | 1445 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 17:15
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Classic "trying to have it both ways."
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| | | 1447 | Boldwin
ID: 4382910 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 19:31
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Gay Marriage in France.
"Two million gather for demonstrations — which are without doubt the largest public movements in French history"
But wait. The media chops off a zero.
The son of the minister of education suggests they start hanging protesters.
Amazingly the famously progressive France still values the family and children's rights.
Or could it just be a revolt against out of touch elites?
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| | | 1448 | Tree
ID: 573452911 Mon, Apr 29, 2013, 20:06
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I>Gay Marriage in France.
this article is about two things?
1. a broken political system in France, where with a single exception, you have to be over 50 today to have voted in the last election, in 1978, when the incumbent majority held on to power...
2. A simple fact that France, unlike the United States, is unyielding on the rights of homosexuals. ...in French law, marriage is indissociable from the right to start a family. There is currently no gay adoption in France and no access for gays or lesbians to medically assisted procreation.
here in the United States, in all 50 states, a single LGBT person can petition to adopt. in 44 states, there is nothing to stop a same-sex couple from petitioning to adopt.
over 50 percent of Americans support same-sex marriage. and a recent poll showed that a full 33 percent of Americans who accept gay marriage, once opposed it.
but, i think, the bottom line here, is that you'd like us to behave like the french?
how hypocritical of you. again.
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| | | 1449 | Tree
ID: 33319309 Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 11:49
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Why we fight for marriage equality...
...and why those opposed to it are on not only the wrong side of history, but on the wrong side of decency.
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| | | 1450 | Tree
ID: 33319309 Tue, Apr 30, 2013, 15:13
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and..more conservatives fooled by parody and satire.
there's a facebook group called "impeach Nancy Pelosi", and they're one of the millions that do those silly conservative themed memes.
the posted, and it has since be re-posted quite a bit, from the " The Timmy Tebow parody Twitter account, which said:
""Tim Tebow: "I'm a Christian."
Media: "Keep it to yourself."
Jason Collins: "I'm gay."
Media: "This man's a hero!" "
it's a parody account people!
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| | |
| | | 1452 | boldwin
ID: 4141214 Thu, May 02, 2013, 15:58
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| | | 1453 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:00
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Because the media has ignored Tim Tebow. Riiigght.
That's a knee-slapper.
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| | | 1454 | Tree
ID: 18446211 Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:47
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Tim Tebow, at this point, is only well known because of his Christianity. it's part of what made him a folk-hero. he had some football heroics, but he's not that good of a professional football player.
the best part of this whole media ignoring Tim Tebow thing is that, as pointed out previously, it's all based on a Tim Tebow parody twitter account.
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| | | 1455 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, May 02, 2013, 16:49
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Agreed. Of the many numerous Heisman winners who failed in the NFL, he is easily the best known and most widely covered - due in large part to his overt Christianity.
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| | | 1456 | boldwin
ID: 4141214 Thu, May 02, 2013, 17:11
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If he hadn't caught lightning in a bottle for half a year they would have treated him like every other christian athlete. And they did their level best to treat his praying like a scandal but the people wouldn't stand for it.
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| | | 1457 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Thu, May 02, 2013, 17:52
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like every other Christian athlete
Um...
You do watch American sports, yes? Maybe you're just watching the wrong teams but I'm pretty sure I see god credited with an awful lot of the strikeouts pitched, runs scored, passes caught, first downs, saves and three-point-shots converted that I witness. I see prayers in no shortage of NFL and NBA huddles. I think the majority of pitchers I see take the mound these days make a spectacle of themselves in public prayer in the middle of the diamond before they warm up. I think the majority of hitters I see these days make the sign of the cross upon entering the batter's box. And I know I see players from opposing NFL teams kneeling in prayer every single time someone goes down with what might be a serious injury.
And I also know for certain that the marginal players who do these things receive no less coverage than the marginal players who don't.
Youre wrong. You dont get to be the underdog when practically the whole damn country is Christian. For gods sake accept victory like a man and get a life.
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| | | 1458 | bibA
ID: 54522612 Thu, May 02, 2013, 17:52
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If he hadn't caught lightning in a bottle for half a year they would have treated him like every other christian athlete.
You mean he would have been treated shabbily?
Like Kurt Warner? Reggie White? David Robinson? Tony Dungy? John Smoltz? Josh Hamilton? Steve Young?
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| | | 1459 | Tree
ID: 18446211 Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:39
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not to mention Albert Pujols, George Foreman, Joe Gibbs, Mariano Rivera, Orel Hershiser, Phillip Rivers, Jake Peavy, and Curt Schilling.
Personally, i'm offended that Baldwin doesn't discuss the deep religious conviction of Jews such as Ian Kinsler, Bill Goldberg, and Amar'e Stoudemire.
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| | | 1460 | Boldwin
ID: 4141214 Thu, May 02, 2013, 18:42
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You mean like when CBS reneged on their 6 million dollar contract with Reggie White, for expressing his religious beliefs?
You mean like this media love towards Tebow?
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| | | 1461 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:13
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I'm supposed to be impressed that in all the thousands of news reports about Time Tebow in the past two years that a conservative media outlet vested in supporting the bible-thumper victimhood fetish was able to find six negative items?
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| | | 1462 | Tree
ID: 18446211 Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:22
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you mean like when CBS reneged on their 6 million dollar contract with Reggie White, for expressing his religious beliefs
except that's not what happened. (White) appeared in a newspaper advertising campaign to convince gays and lesbians that they could "cease" their homosexuality.
additionally, White drew the ire of the NFL and the Packers for appearing in those ads while wearing his Packers uniform.
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| | | 1463 | Boldwin
ID: 4141214 Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:29
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Also known as 'his religious views'.
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| | | 1464 | Boldwin
ID: 4141214 Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:35
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But, thanks you guys for taking time out of your busy schedule calling christians the taliban, getting us put on the official government enemies list, etc, long enuff to reassure us how much the media loves us. Very heartwarming and reassuring. Believe it.
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| | | 1466 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Thu, May 02, 2013, 19:37
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I grew up a Christian. Almost every one in my family is a Christian. Most of my friends are Christians. They aren't anything like you. They aren't freaks.
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| | | 1467 | Tree
ID: 18446211 Thu, May 02, 2013, 20:10
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none of this actually happened, but i'm sure this is where you point to the Breitbart article that used comments from one interview for a story on an altogether different topic.
believing that homosexuals can "cease" being gay is NOT a religious view. well, i mean, unless you're Eric Rudolph.
Homosexuality is an aberrant sexual behavior, and as such I have complete sympathy and understanding for those who are suffering from this condition.
you sure you want to be siding with Eric Rudolph and his acts and beliefs in the name of Christ?
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| | | 1468 | Tree
ID: 18446211 Thu, May 02, 2013, 20:11
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oops, missed this part:
ny conscientious individual afflicted with homosexuality should acknowledge that a healthy society requires a model of sexual behavior to be held up and maintained without assault. Like other humans suffering from various disabilities homosexuals should not attempt to infect the rest of society with their particular illness.
good company you're keeping there Baldwin.
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| | | 1469 | Tree
ID: 18446211 Thu, May 02, 2013, 20:29
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speaking of Christians being punished for their "religious views"...meet Leroy Butler
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| | | 1470 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Fri, May 03, 2013, 08:29
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Believing that homosexuals can "cease" being gay is NOT a religious view.
Why is that not a religious view?
I don't have a problem with a person believing the above, up until the point where they are acting on it in a manner that harms another person. We have religious freedom, there are no prescriptions that I'm aware of that limit what can be considered a religious view. There are restrictions on the actions that you can take with regards to your religious, but not on what you believe.
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| | | 1471 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, May 03, 2013, 09:31
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I'm ok with calling it a religious view, too. It's a misconception that seems to usually be driven by religious faith.
But it's also a derogatory opinion.
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| | | 1472 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, May 03, 2013, 09:35
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I don't think it is a religious view--there is no indication that the belief, or the attempts to put it into action, have religious motivations or basis.
Simply because people are anti-gay for supposedly religious reasons doesn't make gay "cures" themselves religious.
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| | | 1473 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, May 03, 2013, 09:48
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there is no indication that the belief, or the attempts to put it into action, have religious motivations or basis.
Really? You don't think people who believe that are typically motivated by their religious ideology?
Sure there are some people who are just ignorant or hateful homophobes who will run to any excuse that derogates homosexuality. But (like evolution, for example) simple logic makes the counter-argument rather obvious to the objective observer.
And few things are better and leading otherwise perfectly intelligent people to deny simple and obvious logic than religion.
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| | | 1474 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Fri, May 03, 2013, 10:28
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I don't think that they believe that the "gay cure" has a religious basis, no.
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| | | 1475 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:14
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Religions are a set of beliefs. To try and define what can and can not be included in those beliefs is an impossible goal. There are a lot of religions that have strange and weird beliefs, do we not classify them as religions based on some criteria?
Do the Amish really believe that using modern technology is going to curse them? I don't think so, since they are willing to let others use it, or use it under some loophole (like no phone in the house, but in the barn is ok). It doesn't matter if we think they believe it or not. If they want to claim it as a religious belief, we can't oppose it. What we can and should oppose is when those beliefs harm others. Believing that "being gay" can be cured is their choice. Beating someone to drive "the gay" out of them? Arrest them for assault.
I oppose limiting what we accept as religious views, just because I don't like their ideology.
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| | | 1476 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:23
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The relevance to this discussion of the validity of what Eric Rudolph said about gay people eludes me.
Silly tangent.
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| | | 1477 | biliruben
ID: 21841115 Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:25
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I think we are missing the point.
If I had a belief, religious or not, that "little people" were the spawn of the devil, and chose to share those thoughts, you think I should keep my job as a color man, or whatever White was?
If your religion harms my business, I'm gonna fire your ass.
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| | | 1478 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, May 03, 2013, 11:32
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Yes, that.
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| | | 1479 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Fri, May 03, 2013, 12:10
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The relevance to this discussion of the validity of what Eric Rudolph said about gay people eludes me.
my point was that if this is a religious belief - i don't believe it is (as there is a difference between a belief, and a religious belief), it's held by the Baldwins and the Eric Rudolphs of the world alike.
but yes, 1477 is the bottom line.
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| | | 1480 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Fri, May 03, 2013, 12:16
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I don't think it's necessary to bring Eric Rudolph into the discussion in order to invalidate what Boldwin thinks about Reggie White.
It's definitely not necessary to discuss Eric Rudolph any further.
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| | | 1481 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Fri, May 03, 2013, 13:34
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fair points, on both counts.
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| | | 1482 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Sat, May 04, 2013, 16:12
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As he always does, Phil Hughes knelt at the back of the pitcher's mound prior to his warm up pitches before the start of today's game.
He does this before every start. he could pray before he leaves the house in the morning, or in the clubhouse before the game, or pray in the dugout or whenever he wants. But he waits until he is standing in the middle of the diamond in front of 50,000 people so that they can all see him kneel in prayer. He's been doing this for years. And I have never heard a cross word about it.
Just now after the game ended the YES Network rolled a reel of highlights of Hughes strong game, just one quick clip after another that included his strikeout pitches and a few other highlights. The very first shot was of him kneeling in prayer.
Oh how terribly the media persecutes Christian athletes in their coverage of them!
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| | | 1483 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Sat, May 04, 2013, 16:18
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| | | 1484 | Boldwin
ID: 27443423 Sun, May 05, 2013, 03:37
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Oh yes, it's a warm embrace.
The SPLC is just itching to include the "Fellowship of Christian Athletes" to the enemies of the state list. I expect it any day now.
"I'll be honest, a lot of the criticism comes from individuals in the media who see religious people as weird and kooks. No, not all members of the media, but I can say in my experience as a reporter for 21 years that I have heard a lot of anti-religious, and especially anti-Christian, stuff from my media brothers and sisters," the CNN contributor wrote." - Roland Martin
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| | | 1485 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Sun, May 05, 2013, 07:09
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That you are able to locate a former member of the news media in your victimhood fetish cult to agree with you doesn't impress me. That you do so in order to ignore the real life example I have literally shown you of the New York City sports media including a prayer among the highlights of Phil Hughes' 8 inning, 4 hit, 9 strikeout gem yesterday is much more telling.
I don't care what Roland Martin or any other idiot who shares your martyr complex thinks. I know what I see. And I know what you don't see, despite your claims to the contrary and your sick yearning for someone, somewhere to persecute you in support of your case for the terrible misery that is life as a white Christian male in America.
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| | | 1486 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Sun, May 05, 2013, 09:20
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I should be mowing my lawn but I got caught up in this...
Google News doesn't turn up many current articles about the FCL in nationally recognized news outlets. Plenty of stories in southern and midwestern news sites - all of them positive or matter-of-fact as far as I can see. There was this in The Orlando Sentinel HOWEY-IN-THE-HILLS — Florida and FSU fans turned out for camaraderie and friendly competition during the inaugural Noles vs. Gators Golf Challenge at Mission Inn Resort & Club.
Former Seminoles football star Bobby Rhodes teed off during last week's event to benefit the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.
Money raised will be used to sent local athletes to sports campus that highlight the organization's message.
The event attracted 120 golfers including 30 former Gators and Noles players. Among the celebrity participants was Louis Oliver. The former Gator star, who played in the NFL for the Miami Dolphins, gave an inspirational speech later at a dinner.
"He did really well," said Amanda Wettstein, one of the organizers. "He talked about the impact that FCA [Fellowship of Christian Athletes] had on him as an athlete." So without much topical material to look at, I ran a search of the NY Times archive. Turns out they've referred to the FCA a lot, including this piece exploring the role of religion in sports following the Broncos' (and Tim Tebow's) AFC Championship Game loss to the Patriots in January, 2012Yet from its origins, football has been linked with religion for purposes of both praise and opprobrium. The rise of college football coincided with the popularization of “muscular Christianity,” a theology that associated the faith with vigor and might rather than suffering and submission. In “Elmer Gantry,” Sinclair Lewis’s satirical novel about a charlatan evangelist, the title character started his public life as a football star for a religious college.
By the middle of the 20th century, evangelical groups like the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and Athletes in Action aimed specifically at proselytizing in the sports field. Tom Landry, coach of the Dallas Cowboys, was arguably the fellowship’s most significant advocate in the 1960s and 1970s. The fellowship’s current president, Les Steckel, formerly coached the Minnesota Vikings, and its executive director, Donnie Dee, played for the Indianapolis Colts.
“Churches have turned to athletes in the last 30, 40 years,” said Robert J. Higgs, author of “God in the Stadium: Sports & Religion in America.”
“I think it has to do with the idea of victory, that Christ defeated death and gave an award of eternal life and happiness,” he said. “Poets and writers are too ambiguous. They bring up too much of the negative side, so to speak. But a football player is a kind of ideal. He’s a team man, he’s a leader, he’s a spiritual leader out on the field.”
Nathan Whitaker has reckoned with such questions as co-author of the autobiographies of three prominent Christians in football: Mr. Tebow, Tony Dungy, the Super Bowl-winning coach, and James Brown, the CBS broadcaster. In addition, Mr. Whitaker grew up watching University of Florida football stars like Emmitt Smith and Danny Wuerffel celebrate touchdowns with motions of prayer.
“Football hits people who watch it at a visceral level, maybe more so than other sports,” he said. “It seems to leave you in a state where the highs and lows are really extreme. You see people after a vicious hit or a missed call literally shaking, as if it happened to them. Some of those feelings about patriotism and faith take on a different level in such a visceral sport, a sport that gets under your skin in an emotional way.”
Such emotions also lend themselves to cultural conflict.
“It’s interesting how professional football has absorbed this,” Professor Oriard said. “It’s a sport of hired people entertaining the masses for lots of money. It should be immune to the overlay of this cultural baggage. But it’s embraced it.” And this, from 2011 on Nathan Whitaker, who has co-written books with Tebow and Dungy“I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your witness in the middle of this circus,” Mr. Whitaker recalled saying to the coach that day in 2001, using the Christian term for an example of faith. Mr. Dungy replied, “Sometimes I think God wants there to be a circus so we can show there’s another way to respond.”
In that brief exchange, at a time of adversity rather than triumph, Mr. Whitaker unknowingly embarked upon a writing career that has become a phenomenon in Christian publishing and in the theology known as “muscular Christianity.”
Mr. Whitaker’s sporting and religious affinity with Mr. Dungy resulted in a partnership that has produced four best-selling books with more than two million copies in print. The newest title, a volume of daily devotional readings called “The One Year Uncommon Life Daily Challenge,” is being released this month by Tyndale House, a prominent Christian publisher.
That book arrives just weeks after another Christian sports book Mr. Whitaker helped write — “Through My Eyes,” by Tim Tebow, the Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback for the University of Florida — finished an eight-week run on The New York Times’s nonfiction best-seller list.
All these books, but especially Mr. Dungy’s memoir “Quiet Strength,” confirmed and expanded some familiar literary tropes. Instead of settling for the saga of how he won the Super Bowl (with the Indianapolis Colts in 2007), Mr. Dungy wrote at length about both professional setbacks and family tragedy. Mr. Tebow, now with the Denver Broncos, recounted not only his exploits at Florida but also an evangelical Christian boyhood that included missionary work in the Philippines and home schooling by his mother.
“The point of this book is not the Super Bowl,” Mr. Dungy put it bluntly early in “Quiet Strength.” “In fact, it’s not football.” Rather, he went on, referring to God, “I hope when it’s all said and done, you’ll see that it’s really all about Him.”
The interplay of sports and Christianity in modern society took the form of the “muscular Christianity” movement in Victorian England. The creed, drawing from verses in Paul’s letters, taught that physical competition offers a way of using God’s gifts and spreading God’s word. Such theology also challenged the stereotype that Christian faith was meek, almost feminine — which is also why muscular Christianity has provoked criticism throughout its history.
In America, the movement led to the creation of the Y.M.C.A. and sports evangelism groups like the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and Athletes in Action. In his midcentury revivals, the Rev. Billy Graham gave prominence to Christian athletes like Bill Glass, an All-Pro player in the National Football League.
While growing up in Gainesville, Nathan Whitaker, now 42, was influenced by one of Mr. Glass’s books, “Expect to Win.” He went on to play varsity baseball, wearing a small pin of a cross on his cap, and to gain a comfort level among African-Americans by attending a largely black high school and sometimes worshiping in a black church. All those traits would inform his bond with Mr. Dungy, who was the first black coach to win a Super Bowl. I skimmed through a few other items before using up most of my allotment of viewing rights on the NYT website and simply could not find even a single negative reference to the FCA or any Christian athletes or any attempt to criticize or downplay the Christianity of any athletes or to criticize the role of Christianity in their lives or in sports in general. In fact for the most part, in any instances in which judgement of any kind was suggested it was only positive.
How terribly disappointing this must be for Boldwin.
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| | | 1487 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, May 05, 2013, 10:09
|
Reality often is. That's why he's gotta pass along made-up news to feed his hunger for hate.
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| | | 1488 | Boldwin
ID: 55428510 Sun, May 05, 2013, 11:32
|
The only people fixated on hate are the people bringing up the subject and trying to paste it on people.
I have never once considered adding PD to the national enemies list the SPLC keeps tho he heaps hate on me all day long. Wish he wasn't so keen on pasting my name up on their wall.
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| | | 1489 | Mith
ID: 29182720 Sun, May 05, 2013, 11:58
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The only people fixated on hate are the people bringing up the subject and trying to paste it on people
Oh my goodness!
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| | | 1490 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Sun, May 05, 2013, 13:48
|
Just like all those black racists, MITH.
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| | | 1491 | Boldwin
ID: 24433519 Mon, May 06, 2013, 10:03
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Qualify for State...check.
Point to the heavens...check.
Get disqualified...naturally.
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| | | 1493 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Mon, May 06, 2013, 10:21
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How exactly is that prosecution of religion? The rule that he broke doesn't reference religion, it states that any celebration is a punishable offense.
If you want to argue that the it wasn't excessive, knock yourself out. But it isn't an example of religious persecution.
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| | | 1494 | DWetzel
ID: 59149910 Mon, May 06, 2013, 10:51
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MY religion requires me to pull my pants down and crotch-chop at my opponents like Degeneration X, but I don't hear anyone in an uproar that I can't do that.
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| | | 1495 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, May 06, 2013, 11:49
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C'mon, Frick--you know that holding Christians to the same rules as everyone else is, definitionally, "persecution."
Not giving Christians a pass is oppression. Don't you know that, in some other countries, Christians are actually killed for their belief in Christ? This is no different.
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| | | 1496 | Tree
ID: 31426612 Mon, May 06, 2013, 13:38
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1494 had me LOL. you should have embedded a youtube video of DX.
but this isn't religious persecution. this is an example of an overzealous athletic board over-enforcing a rule.
there's also the matter of someone not doing due dilligence with their research...
from the UIL decision on this:
Over the course of the investigation, the UIL interviewed several eyewitnesses and reviewed video of the race. Additionally, the UIL spoke to the involved parties. The UIL has concluded the investigation and has found no evidence to suggest that the disqualification took place as a result of the student-athlete expressing religious beliefs. The basis for the disqualification was due to the student-athlete behaving disrespectfully, in the opinion of the local meet referee.
Based on the UIL’s investigation, the student athlete raised his hand and gestured forward at the conclusion of the 4x100-meter relay. The meet official approached the student-athlete in an effort to warn him of a possible disqualification should that behavior continue. In the opinion of the official, the student reacted disrespectfully. Based on his reaction, the student-athlete was subsequently disqualified. Any decision to disqualify a student-athlete at any track meet must be upheld by the head meet referee. The meet official and the meet referee conferred, and the disqualification was upheld on-site. At no point during the discussions surrounding the disqualification at the meet was the issue of religious expression raised by any parties.
The UIL’s investigation also revealed that all coaches involved were notified prior to the regional meet that any gestures in violation of the NFHS track and field rule against unsporting behavior would be grounds for disqualification. Coaches were instructed to discuss this with their student-athletes prior to all races.
as usual, there was much more to the story, and that much more makes Baldwins claims, as usual, invalid.
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| | | 1497 | Tree
ID: 56456615 Mon, May 06, 2013, 18:08
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obviously, no response coming from our resident loon.
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| | | 1498 | Boldwin
ID: 56439615 Mon, May 06, 2013, 18:43
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Blackmailed into it, no doubt. Prolly would have been expelled otherwise.
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| | | 1499 | Tree
ID: 56456615 Mon, May 06, 2013, 19:05
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who was blackmailed? the student?
blackmailed into WHAT?
could you make a more idiotic response than you did in 1498? PLEASE? at least try? the entertainment value alone could be priceless.
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| | | 1501 | Tree
ID: 56456615 Mon, May 06, 2013, 19:35
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i am saddened i missed the no doubt offensive post that was deleted. as i said, the entertainment value could (have been) priceless.
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| | | 1502 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Mon, May 06, 2013, 23:29
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Blackmailed into it, no doubt. Prolly would have been expelled otherwise.
even the family acknowledges what you won't. at least the family - including the teenager - are adult enough to admit when they're wrong.
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| | | 1503 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Mon, May 06, 2013, 23:30
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and finally, WFAA Sports Anchor Dale Hansen - pretty much a legend in these parts - chimes in with his (in)famous unplugged.
But kicking a bunch of high school kids out of a state track meet because a kid points to the sky? That's just stupid.
His dad says it violates their religious freedom.
No, it really doesn't. Everybody's concerned about their religious freedom, as long as it's their religion.
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| | | 1504 | Boldwin
ID: 3418620 Tue, May 07, 2013, 07:19
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I find it entirely believable that the family received a subtle or direct threat, 'retract your PR damaging charges or face more than just losing your opportunity to race at state. Face expulsion unless you retract'.
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| | | 1505 | Tree
ID: 38322228 Tue, May 07, 2013, 09:10
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you often find the unbelievable, believable.
'retract your PR damaging charges or face more than just losing your opportunity to race at state. Face expulsion unless you retract'.
isn't even realistic, but it helps you feel comfortable in trying to spread more lies, good on you.
this is why you've become a laughing stock on these boards. it's just not possible for you to say "hey, i might have been wrong," despite the numerous times you have been wrong, and few more clearer than this one, which is cut and dried.
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| | | 1506 | Boldwin
ID: 4243997 Thu, May 09, 2013, 12:48
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John Maynard Keynes
Not concerned with the effects of out of control spending on posterity...and coincidentally gay.
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| | | 1507 | Tree
ID: 47439912 Thu, May 09, 2013, 13:39
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and coincidentally gay.
well, actually bisexual.
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| | |
| | | 1509 | Tree
ID: 574121319 Mon, May 13, 2013, 20:12
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they're all going to hell. every single of those sodomy-loving sinners.
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| | | 1510 | Tree
ID: 564211423 Wed, May 15, 2013, 20:47
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this is great stuff.
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| | | 1511 | Mith
ID: 412561115 Thu, May 16, 2013, 08:39
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The Yankees called up long-time prospect David Adams yesterday. I mention it because I caught pre-game show's broadcast of the interview they taped with Adams during batting practice.
He talked about his Minor League career being a roller coaster, but that it was in God's hands the whole time and that He is what ultimately led him to the majors. The quote he gave was nice even before he mentioned God and a media outlet that tries to downplay religion could have had a very nice sound bite from Adams even if the god stuff was edited out.
So I thought about posting a note here that the YES Network once again rolled tape on air that included a player's expression of his Christianity, when it would have been just as easy to omit it.
But I figured my time would be wasted since the likely response from the local victimhood fetishist would be to credit YES but call them the exception in the Godless NYC media market. So I didn't bother.
Then I read Bill Madden's column on Adams in the NY Daily News this morning. Madden included the full quote even though, as the full except makes clear, he could have left the god stuff out without changing his story, too:Mind you, Adams is anything but one of your typical, much-touted Yankee prospect a la Jesus Montero, Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances, Slade Heathcott or Mason Williams. It took him five years and not nearly enough games within them to get here, and in between he was traded, severely injured, released and unceremoniously shunted to the minor league camp on the first wave of cuts this spring without nary an at-bat. When the Yankees released Adams on March 26, to make room on the 40-man roster for Vernon Wells, they told him they still liked him, but they sure had a funny way of showing it.
“It’s been a roller-coaster ride,” Adams admitted. “When they released me in spring training I was filled with disappointment and frustration. But I was hurt and they needed room on the roster for guys to come in here and help them. It’s always a scary thing, but you’ve got to trust that God has a plan and here I am, in the majors on a day the Mariners are in town and the whole story of the Cliff Lee trade comes full cycle.”
Ah, yes, the Cliff Lee trade.
Or more precisely the Cliff Lee trade that wasn’t for the Yankees. In July of 2010, the Yankees thought they had a deal with the Mariners to acquire Lee, the premier lefthander on the market that summer, for a package of prospects, Montero, Ivan Nova and Adams, only to have Seattle pull out of it at the last minute when it didn’t like the medical report on Adams’ recently sprained ankle. Just like YES, if Madden(and the Daily News' editors) were the least bit interested in stifling expressions of Christianity, they could easily have published something like:
"...they needed room on the roster for guys to come in here and help them." Adams added that getting released was a scary thing, but that with his promotion coming during a series against the Mariners, "the whole story of the Cliff Lee trade comes full cycle.”
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| | | 1512 | Boldwin
ID: 2446204 Mon, May 20, 2013, 07:54
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As I've stated many times, they aren't looking for equality. They are looking for the power to force your full throated approval of their lifestyle or be fired.
It's not enuff that the radical 3% insist the majority get into the closet of silence they just came out of. No, they intend to drag you out and get you fired.Silence Will be Interpreted as Disapproval --- Forcing attendance at gay pride events, forcing public displays of pro-homosexuality in our personal workspaces, rampant language policing, forget free speech.
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| | | 1513 | Tree
ID: 564211423 Mon, May 20, 2013, 10:32
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As I've stated many times, they aren't looking for equality. They are looking for the power to force your full throated approval of their lifestyle or be fired.
i realize that you enjoy yours news spoon fed to you and you're not interested in what someone actually means, but rather what your blog du jour has interpreted it to mean.
the hateful and mocking comments on Dan Savage are bad enough (really??? making fun of the "it gets better" campaign to help reduce teen (and younger) suicide?? that's something you condone. CLASSY!).
but to be so ignorant to misunderstand basic things like: "DO assume that LGBT employees and their allies are listening to what you’re saying (whether in a meeting or around the proverbial water cooler) and will read what you’re writing (whether in a casual email or in a formal document), and make sure the language you use is inclusive and respectful."
to me, that's pretty simple. it means don't say offensive things. you wouldn't say "n*gger" in every day language or in emails, so why would something like "F*ggot" be ok?
it means that if you say something like that i'm going to call you out on it.
there's nothing sinister going on. it's simple. don't be a dick. don't be a homophobe.
DO “Attend LGBT events sponsored by DOJ Pride and/or the Department, and invite (but don’t require) others to join you.” DO “Display a symbol in your office (DOJ Pride sticker, copy of this brochure, etc.) indicating that it is a ‘safe space.’
these are also pretty simple. i realize that someone who's heart and head are filled with hate will likely miss the "but don't require" line, but the reality here is that there are a lot of ignorant people in the world, and it might do them a lot of good to actually learn something.
and safe place? again, some people are perfectly wonderful with homosexuals getting attacked for their orientation - i believe there were four cases in NYC alone last week - so indicating that harassment won't happen in the work place isn't a bad thing.
well, i mean, unless you're filled with hate. then tolerance has no place in your mind.
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| | | 1514 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Mon, May 20, 2013, 13:31
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I know plenty of Christians, and Christian groups, who aren't satisfied with equality themselves. They want to make this a "Christian Nation" and to discourage (at best) people of other faiths from coming here.
Does this prevent me from treating them with equality? No.
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| | | 1515 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, May 23, 2013, 19:18
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Boy Scouts approve rule change to allow gay boys in.
More correct would be "to not force the boys who in the Scouts and are gay to act like they are not."
DADT for Scouting ended.
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| | | 1516 | Tree
ID: 57462317 Thu, May 23, 2013, 20:09
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it's a good move. it doesn't change the rules against gay scout leaders, but that wall of shame will soon fall as well.
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| | | 1517 | Frick
ID: 157331422 Thu, May 23, 2013, 22:49
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My son was in scouts for awhile, but got bored and wanted to quit. Since he was busy in plenty of other activities, I didn't object. I was still on the mailing list of the local leader and when I got an e-mail asking me to contact the national leaders and for them to uphold the bigotry, I was very glad that he had quit, or else he would have been quitting.
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| | | 1518 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, May 23, 2013, 23:05
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Our local paper had a story today, in which comment after comment was about comparing gays to pedophiles, bestiality, etc etc.
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| | | 1519 | sarge33rd
ID: 4609710 Thu, May 23, 2013, 23:09
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ignorance PD, knows no bounds.
Frick, good on ya dude.
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| | | 1521 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 21:29
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"Politicians who use the Bible aren't necessarily interested in the truth or the complexity of the Bible," he said. "They are looking for one ancient sound bite to convince people what they already believe."
Yup.
Biblical Marriage not defined as simply one man-one woman
I don't mind (at all) that people have a religious reason for their political stances. I do have a problem when their appeal to authority is to an authority with, at best, an inconsistent moral teaching about marriage.
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| | | 1523 | Boldwin
ID: 57519186 Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 21:10
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The 'tolerant' have a hellova lotta bigotry and bullying planned.
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| | | 1524 | Tree
ID: 564211423 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 10:43
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THIS IS A F*CK YEA KIND OF DAY!
10:24 AM ET Supreme Court strikes down part of DOMA, dismisses Prop. 8 appeal
YOU CANNOT STOP EQUALITY.
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| | | 1525 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 11:36
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A woman on twitter that I follow summed it up pretty well.
Woke up to great news this morning and hugged my wife and daughter upon realizing that we are no longer second class citizens.
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| | | 1526 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 12:17
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Good news. Scalia seemed very disappointed in his dissent (and, I agree, that a full SCOTUS take-on of Prop 8 would have left a much more clear ruling for both sides).
But here's the thing: Every small step brings the rest of the country along. As forward progress is made on marriage equality, most people fill in to the gaps, moving toward (first) acceptance, then approval.
Scalia and others know that they won't get another chance.
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| | | 1527 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 05047110 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 15:35
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long way to go, but it's a good day.
Freedom.
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| | | 1528 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Wed, Jun 26, 2013, 16:41
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Just a recap.
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| | | 1529 | Perm Dude
ID: 201027169 Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 11:18
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Fiscal impact of gay marriage on the federal budget.
Haven't looked at the assumptions yet, but I believe this assumes nationwide same-sex marriage being legalized, which of course we do not have. But interesting, nevertheless.
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| | | 1530 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 13:20
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Even if same-sex marriage isn't legalized nationwide, the Federal government would now be required to recognize marriage certificates from any state that grants them. That means that same-sex couples have to travel to a state that grants them to have it issued, but I don't see that being a a significant issue. Other than treating same-sex couples as second class citizens in some states.
I read a blog this morning from a Republican in Indiana who was warning that GOP to be careful with putting a same-sex marriage ban up for a state amendment vote. The trend has been for more and more acceptance of same-sex marriages. Even Republicans aren't a lock to vote for it, especially younger Republicans. For further proof look at the Democratic candidates who defeated their Republican rivals (Senator, Department of Education Head) who won because they were more moderate.
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| | | 1531 | Tree
ID: 135382713 Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 14:40
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those of us who have been behind gay marriage from the beginning have likened it to the Civil Rights Movement, at least in part, because those who remain opposed will be looked at no differently than those who were opposed to the Civil Rights Movement.
enlightened and educated people often have evolving opinions, especially as they learn more.
those who are opposed prefer their own ignorance and hate.
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| | | 1532 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 16:11
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The Oatmeal
width="400">
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| | | 1533 | Tree
ID: 135382713 Thu, Jun 27, 2013, 16:17
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ha! i put that on my facebook page yesterday. so so true :o)
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| | | 1536 | Tree
ID: 37212918 Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 19:21
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the day where gay marriage isn't an issue is coming upon us quicker than i expected.
this is wonderful.
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| | | 1537 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 22:36
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Hawaii next up?
Gov. Neil Abercrombie on Monday called for a special legislative session to move forward on a bill that would legalize gay marriage.
If lawmakers pass a bill, Hawaii would join 13 U.S. states and the District of Columbia in allowing gay marriage. The special session is scheduled to begin Oct. 28.
One by one, the dominos are falling.
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| | | 1538 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515 Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 00:01
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The Colville nation also recognized gay marriage.
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| | | 1539 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 07:58
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Indiana right wingers have been trying to get an amendment passed to ban gay marriage and they probably would have succeeded if they had tried it as recently as 1996. According to Gallup, back in 1996 nearly 70 percent of the public opposed same-sex marriage. A recent poll conducted by the Bowen Center for Public Affairs at Ball State University, showed only 38 percent of the public supporting the measure and 54 percent opposing it.
So, where the dominoes aren't falling, they are starting to lean in the other direction.
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| | | 1543 | Perm Dude
ID: 339541411 Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:32
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Governor Christie decides not to fight against same sex marriage in NJ--couples started wedding right after midnight.
NJ Star Ledger piece.
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| | | 1544 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221 Tue, Nov 05, 2013, 17:35
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Illinois Gay Marriage Vote Passes House, State Posited To Be 15th To Legalize Same Sex Marriage
SPRINGFIELD — The Illinois House passed a bill legalizing same sex marriage Tuesday, putting the Land of Lincoln on course to be the 15th state to legalize same sex marriage.
The House of Representatives narrowly passed the bill 61-54-2 shortly after 4 p.m. Tuesday.
The bill, SB10, now returns to the Democratically-controlled state senate. Earlier this year, the Illinois senate approved the bill by a vote of 34 to 21.
Gov. Pat Quinn has previously said he would sign the bill into law.
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| | | 1545 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Nov 05, 2013, 21:26
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Related news: Boldwin's head explodes.
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| | | 1547 | Frick
ID: 432501512 Mon, Jan 13, 2014, 15:24
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Indiana is trying to pass some new convoluted law to ban gay marriages again. It is such a mess, that another statute is required.
The best part was the representative you made the argument that the states with the best growth rates all had gay marriage bans.
XKCD
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| | | 1548 | Khahan Donor
ID: 39432178 Tue, Jan 14, 2014, 12:58
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People need to get over gay marriage. If you dont like - dont participate in it. :)
If you aren't participating in it, then why do you care? It has nothing to do with your marriage.
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| | | 1549 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Tue, Jan 14, 2014, 17:30
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District Judge rules OK ban on marriage equality is unconstitutional
Today U.S. District Judge Terence Kern ruled that Oklahoma’s ban on marriage equality is unconstitutional. His ruling is stayed pending appeal, meaning marriages will not occur immediately in the Sooner State.
HRC President Chad Griffin issued the following statement: “Judge Kern has come to the conclusion that so many have before him – that the fundamental equality of lesbian and gay couples is guaranteed by the United States Constitution. With last year’s historic victories at the Supreme Court guiding the way, it is clear that we are on a path to full and equal citizenship for all lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Americans. Equality is not just for the coasts anymore, and today’s news from Oklahoma shows that time has come for fairness and dignity to reach every American in all 50 states.”
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| | | 1550 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Mar 04, 2014, 09:54
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Backpeddling on support for the Arizona bill
A good takedown of those who supported AB 1062, who lack the ability to self-criticize and are, even now, blaming this all on the "media" and the fact that their intentions were both misunderstood and micharacterized.
The fact that people, in general, exactly understood the bill seems to have slipped their notice.
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| | | 1551 | Boldwin
ID: 13425822 Thu, May 08, 2014, 23:34
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Gene Robinson destroyed the Episcopalian Church to facilitate his homosexual 'marriage' to Mark Andrew.
Which is now dissolving, both the church and the 'marriage'.
What is also dissolving is marriage in general in that church. In the past decade, marriages have declined an astounding 45 percent. In 2002, the denomination reported 18,798 marriages in its U.S. dioceses, in 2012 (the most recent reporting year) that had slowed to 10,366 marriages. This dissolving of marriage was foreshadowed in the dissolution of Robinson's first marriage.Robinson described how the divorcing couple went from the courthouse to the church, where they returned to one another their wedding rings and, bizarrely, took communion in a sort of un-marriage service. There is no word if Robinson and Andrew plan a similar ritual in an Episcopal sanctuary once their divorce is finalized, but it is clear that they won’t find much competition for space from couples looking to get married. Now I'll let Sarge explain to you that the homosexual takeover of the marriage ceremony isn't effecting anyone else.
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| | | 1552 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Fri, May 09, 2014, 00:05
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Not that you are overly interested in the truth, but the rest of us (fr the most part), tend to value it;
“The Episcopal Church's numerical decline comes from a drop in baptisms, departures sparked by disagreements within the church over the authority of Scripture and the identity of Jesus Christ, and a decrease in evangelism as Episcopalians focus increasingly on social charity,” Walton explained to The Christian Post.
“The spread of universalist theology within Episcopal seminaries has extinguished the urgency of winning souls, and the church has been largely unsuccessful in reaching immigrant populations which are disproportionately attracted to Roman Catholic and Pentecostal churches.”
Episcopalian Church Membership Dips Below 2 Million
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| | | 1553 | Boldwin
ID: 13425822 Fri, May 09, 2014, 00:37
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The spread of universalist theology"
What I said. Robinson effectively kicked God out of their seminaries and their sense of morality.
To allow for 'anything goes' morality.
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| | | 1554 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Fri, May 09, 2014, 00:43
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no B, not what you said. But that post was exactly what I expected you would say.
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| | | 1555 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sat, May 10, 2014, 12:13
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Your homework assignment: Heterosexual monogamous for life society.
How did we get there and why? Why has this model survived? What other models have enjoyed the same success in history? What role has religion played in maintaining all of these models?
For extra credit: Why are so many people afraid of the emergence of gay rights?
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| | | 1556 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sat, May 10, 2014, 13:13
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Did I mention...500 words or less...its gotta be a soundbite
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| | | 1557 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sat, May 10, 2014, 14:29
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In the beginning we were monkeys (i'd go back further but you wouldnt be able to handle it because you are barely smarter than a monkey right now.)
Lets pretend the world was created in 7 days...OK? How bout we pretend the universe was created in 365 days (thank you Neil DeGrasse).
When do you graduate from the bible? Do you get a certificate of graduation? How does one move from being the flock to being the shepherd?
What exactly is the golden rule and why is it called that? Why does scripture say this is a summary of the teachings, implying you need nothing more. Give me the Cliff notes please.
Sorry I really dont mean to be mean guys but.....
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| | | 1558 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Sat, May 10, 2014, 19:44
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Apologetic...use it in a sentence. Discover its entymology. Why do religious people constantly have to apologize for their faith?
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| | | 1559 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sun, May 11, 2014, 13:15
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Apologetics isn't the same as apologizing. If you looked up its meaning, you would know that apologetics are writings in defense of faith. That is a different thing from apologizing (which is about setting things straight when you have done a wrong).
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| | | 1560 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Sun, May 11, 2014, 13:16
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Some friends of mine were just married in Arkansas. Deep in the heart of red country, they are a beautiful, long-term couple. The fact that they had to wait so long simply because they are both women is something we'll be ashamed about, years from now.
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| | | 1561 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Wed, May 14, 2014, 18:00
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Idaho!
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| | | 1562 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Mon, May 19, 2014, 17:21
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And now Oregon
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| | | 1564 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Tue, May 20, 2014, 14:58
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And now PENNSYLVANIA.
Boo yah!
Today, certain citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are not guaranteed the right to marry the person they love. Nor does Pennsylvania recognize the marriages of other couples who have wed elsewhere. Hoping to end this injustice, eleven courageous lesbian and gay couples, one widow, and two teenage children of one of the aforesaid couples have come together as plaintiffs and asked this Court to declare that all Pennsylvanians have the right to marry the person of their choice and consequently, that the Commonwealth’s laws to the contrary are unconstitutional. We now join the twelve federal district courts across the country which, when confronted with these inequities in their own states, have concluded that all couples deserve equal dignity in the realm of civil marriage
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| | | 1565 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Tue, May 27, 2014, 15:45
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Gay marriage has now hit Monroe County, Pennsylvania.
At 3pm I officiated the wedding service of two men, down at Borough Hall. They have been together 24 years and never thought they'd get married in their lifetime. And still, they both cried a bit during the ceremony.
Congrats to Manny and Christopher. "May your days be good, and long, upon the Earth."
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| | | 1567 | Gator
ID: 19323103 Fri, May 30, 2014, 12:43
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PD, you look like a Republican.
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| | | 1568 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Fri, May 30, 2014, 13:02
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Shhhh. I'm undercover...
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| | | 1569 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Fri, Jun 06, 2014, 19:43
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meanwhile, on the fringe of idiocy, decency, and common sense, comes the Texas Republican party.
Texas GOP Pushes Therapy to 'Heal' Gays
point blank. if you believe therapy can "heal" gays, then you are an idiot, and you honestly have no business in an elected office.
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| | | 1570 | Boldwin
ID: 5752368 Fri, Jun 06, 2014, 20:01
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Don't quit your day job Dr Tree.
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| | | 1571 | Bean
ID: 5292191 Fri, Jun 06, 2014, 21:09
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If you believe that all gays are gay because they sought a gay lifestyle, you've never been in a prison.
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| | | 1572 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Sun, Jun 08, 2014, 22:10
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i won't baldwin. doesn't make one any less of an idiot if they believe you can "heal" gays...
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| | | 1575 | Boldwin
ID: 4253916 Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 20:24
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What is it about 3% of the population that fascinates you so, PD?
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| | | 1576 | Gator
ID: 19323103 Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 21:58
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Boldwin, is that the % of gays or gays that want to get married?
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| | | 1577 | Tree
ID: 438482411 Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 22:50
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Jehovah's Witnessess make up less than 1 percent of the population. should we not care about them either?
i don't think it's PD that is fascinating - he's merely reporting the Civil Rights Movement and the continued march to equality.
those who are fascinated by homosexuals are those who are opposed to their equality.
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| | | 1578 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 23:08
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In a thread about gay marriage, Boldwin wonders about my fascination with staying on-topic...
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| | | 1579 | Boldwin
ID: 445221020 Tue, Jun 10, 2014, 23:22
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I ask why you are so interested. That and censoring me. It's the only things that animate you on this board.
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| | | 1582 | biliruben
ID: 41431323 Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 00:58
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He thinks you are cute, but he's too shy to come out and say it.
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| | | 1583 | Boldwin
ID: 445221020 Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 01:03
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Tease.
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| | | 1585 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Thu, Jun 26, 2014, 14:14
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Meant to note that the Utah ruling was not a state court, but a federal appeals court--the 10th District Court. So its ruling applies to the other states in that district as well: Oklahoma, Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico and Wyoming.
However, the ruling has been stayed, pending approval.
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| | | 1586 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Tue, Jul 01, 2014, 20:43
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KY overturned, ruling stayed pending appeal.
Meanwhile, a friend from college is one of the six couples suing in Colorado to overturn that ban.
Earlier today, I presided over a ceremony for two retired guys (one of whom is 73) who never thought they could ever get married. Each of them had a parent there, as well. It was very moving.
The same-sex ceremonies I've performed are among the most emotionally bracing and moving things I've ever had the honor to do.
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| | | 1587 | Boldwin
ID: 4262113 Tue, Jul 01, 2014, 21:49
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I see a gay marriage parlor in your future. Ditch the trademarket biz and embrace the briefest of futures.
Maybe a pillar of salt motif.
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| | | 1588 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 01:54
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keep hiding from reality B. By this point in time, you have pretty much mastered it.
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| | | 1589 | Boldwin
ID: 4262113 Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 06:08
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You will wish you had mastered it come Armageddon.
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| | | 1590 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 09:55
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sarge: People on the far right on this issue aren't hiding. They sincerely have the view that their Christianity requires them to be dicks.
The fact that this is at odds with the actual teachings of Christ doesn't matter. And it is only a coincidence that it exactly matches (with no extra cloth) their politics.
They will face their judgement. And no amount of spin will help them, then.
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| | | 1593 | Perm Dude
ID: 294531914 Wed, Jul 02, 2014, 20:30
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They want the whole pie. The fact that someone else is making their own pie doesn't matter--someone else getting pie means soon no one will have pie.
Yeah, its bizarre. And pathological. And unchristian. But entirely predictable based upon years of hearing nothing but echo chamber circle jerk fear-mongering.
Somehow two guys in their 70's getting married in PA means that a crazy white guy in Illinois is going to a concentration camp. Because, you know, freedom.
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| | | 1598 | Boldwin
ID: 5624318 Fri, Jul 04, 2014, 16:58
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The more I think about it, the more you gotta do it, PD.
You could get SO MUCH free national publicity with yer touching LGTBXYZ testimonials in support.
You are already in the Poconos for crying out loud.
Sniff around. I imagine there is a simply FABulous design team just swooning to design the place pro bono.
You can grease the paperwork skids as mayor.
Come up with a snappy nickname.
A trademarked catchphrase. "Oh yes, my my my, I just Loooove 'Fred's Place'™ . I have aaaall my rituals performed by Fred."™
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| | | 1599 | Boldwin
ID: 5624318 Fri, Jul 04, 2014, 17:00
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Don't forget the 'pillar of salt' motif.
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| | | 1600 | Boldwin
ID: 5624318 Fri, Jul 04, 2014, 17:01
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Hey, could I get royalties for that idea?
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| | | 1601 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Fri, Jul 04, 2014, 19:44
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When in doubt, put your faith in love. It comes from God, after all.
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| | | 1602 | Boldwin
ID: 5624318 Fri, Jul 04, 2014, 20:09
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You could have sold that before the flood too. Demonstrably not every love is godly or approved by God.
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| | | 1604 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 18:52
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From the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals decision:
“The argument that the states press hardest in defense of their prohibition of same-sex marriage is that the only reason government encourages marriage is to induce heterosexuals to marry so that there will be fewer ‘accidental births,’ which when they occur outside of marriage often lead to abandonment of the child to the mother (unaided by the father) or to foster care.,” Posner writes. “Overlooked by this argument is that many of those abandoned children are adopted by homosexual couples, and those children would be better off both emotionally and economically if their adoptive parents were married.”
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| | | 1607 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Fri, Nov 07, 2014, 10:18
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The way the current SCOTUS has been ruling, this stands to set equality back, 100 years.
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| | | 1608 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Wed, Nov 19, 2014, 18:38
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Now, Montana.
Tellingly, the ruling was not stayed, so couples can apply for licenses and get married immediately.
In other news, the Court of Appeals rejected South Carolina's attempt to delay same-sex marriage in their state.
As I opined above, SCOTUS can't hide on this issue another. My guess is that, by June, they will have to have ruled on this.
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| | | 1609 | Boldwin
ID: 49572022 Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 15:37
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| | | 1611 | biliruben
ID: 229341622 Sun, Jul 26, 2015, 13:07
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The reality of what? There are monstrous parents in the world?
You don't strike my as drooling-in-your-soup stupid, so I can assume you aren't trying to make the point that gay parents are more likely to torture and rape their children than straight parents.
I assume.
But then what ARE you trying to say?
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| | | 1612 | Boldwin
ID: 49572022 Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 02:30
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They think it's liberating. And yes, it's muuuuch more common.
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| | | 1613 | biliruben
ID: 28420307 Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 07:55
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No "They" don't.
You better come with a boatload of evidence before making broad generalizations that gay parents commonly engage in child rape.
I'll have to revise my opinion of the spittle content of your gruel.
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| | | 1614 | bibA
ID: 275441414 Tue, Jul 28, 2015, 14:43
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Accusing him of generalizing and hyperbole?
C'mon....
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| | | 1615 | Boldwin
ID: 49572022 Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 00:51
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That's what gay Milo Yiannopoulis says.
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| | | 1616 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Wed, Jul 29, 2015, 11:10
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You better come with a boatload of evidence before making broad generalizations that gay parents commonly engage in child rape.
I'll have to revise my opinion of the spittle content of your gruel.
i've been saying this for years. his level of hatred knows no bounds. people thought it was just "boldwin being boldwin".
i'm not sure which is more disgusting - mocking the parents of murdered children, or proclaiming that gay parents rape and torture their children "muuuuch more" than straight parents.
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| | | 1617 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Tue, Aug 25, 2015, 13:43
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So now you can't be a lawyer in Canada if you are a christian because your christian college is no longer accredited by the Law Society.
"Oh no" they said. "How does their getting married harm anyone else" they said.
F'n liars. They knew what this was all about and where it was heading. I told the ones who lied about it here.
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| | | 1618 | CanadianHack
ID: 2710231914 Tue, Aug 25, 2015, 21:11
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To respond to 1617, Trinity Western University has never had an accredited law school. Boldwin's claim that they are "no longer accredited" is false. It is his shoddy homework as usual.
There are many reasons that Trinity Western has no accredited law school. Their programs are in general subpar in any field and tend not to be taken very seriously by accreditting agencies in other fields. Of course it makes sensationalist Boldwin news to claim it is only due to their world views and scream Christian persecution. It is a lie. Of course that is exactly what we expect from Boldwin.
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| | | 1619 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Tue, Aug 25, 2015, 22:41
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The society accredited the proposed law school in April 2014, but reversed that decision in October after a vote by its members.
The B.C. government later revoked its support, barring the school from enrolling students.
So you can't go to a christian college and get a law degree by this principle.
One more profession barred to christians, and they aren't gonna stop until you have to renounce your religion to eat.
"How does it hurt anyone else if we have gay marriage." they said.
F'n totalitarians like Sarge understood the game all along. And they just lied thru their teeth about it.
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| | | 1620 | CanadianHack
ID: 2710231914 Tue, Aug 25, 2015, 23:06
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You also cannot go to Simon Fraser University, Vancouver Island University, Capilano University, University of the Fraser Valley, Thompson Rivers University or UBC-Okanagan and get a law degree in BC. Every one of those universities is better than Trinity Western. What do you think of that?
Not every university has a law school. A barely a university that is Christian gets Boldwin's full support even though he knows nothing about the "school" in question. However, he can make it into a lie about a religion being prosecuted.
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| | | 1621 | CanadianHack
ID: 2710231914 Tue, Aug 25, 2015, 23:13
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Here is an article that has a more balanced and not sensationalistic (i.e. Boldwin won`t like it) explanation about Trinity Western trying to get a law school accreditation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/douglas-judson/twu-law-school_b_7747408.html
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| | | 1622 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 08:34
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One more profession barred to christians, and they aren't gonna stop until you have to renounce your religion to eat.
hyperbole much.
Christians, at least in this country, are barred from no profession. no matter how much that you cry that you're being persecuted, it doesn't change the fact that you're not, at least not for your Christianity.
your ignorance, maybe.
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| | | 1623 | Khahan
ID: 477322612 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 13:32
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are barred from no profession.
I don't know Tree, I don't know any Christian Rabis or Imams. Must be a conspiracy!!!
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| | | 1624 | biliruben
ID: 137281811 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 14:26
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As an Athiest, I'm barred from all positions in all clergy. Jesusfck. I'm going to write my congressman.
That reminds me, I'm pretty much barred from running for public office as well!
Cry me a river.
So you can be a gay-bashing dushbag and expect the world to conform to your idiocy. Wah wah wah.
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| | | 1625 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 16:47
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It is interesting that liberals aren't going to go from denying that SSM will end up making religion illegal to admitting it's gone too far.
They are going to go directly to cheering the mobs and the concentration camps.
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| | | 1626 | biliruben
ID: 39256112 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 17:32
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Yes. Religion is illegal.
Can you make yourself sound any more ridiculous?
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| | | 1627 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 18:12
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The Al-Anfal campaign is now marching thru the professions.
Try baking a cake while religious.
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| | | 1628 | biliruben
ID: 39256112 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 18:17
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You are a clown. The percentage on non-religious is in the single digits. You may have some point buried deep in your inferiority complex, but your naked stupidity is very successful in masking it.
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| | | 1629 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 18:19
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You will be surprised what percentage will bake a cake and dance in a gay pride parade when they are are starving.
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| | | 1630 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 18:28
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Any guesses as to how soon gays are going to demand muslim bakers dance for gays?
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| | | 1631 | biliruben
ID: 39256112 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 18:45
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Dunno. Why don't you ask them "gays"?
Or better yet, ask all those Muslim bakers you are so concerned about being turned somehow into marionettes whether you are making any sort of coherent sense, or just spewing hate.
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| | | 1632 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Wed, Aug 26, 2015, 19:16
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It is amazing how muslims throwing gays off precipices doesn't trigger liberals, but the thot I might not celebrate their 'marriage' has their panties all in a bunch.
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| | | 1633 | biliruben
ID: 137281811 Thu, Aug 27, 2015, 11:17
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I'm pretty sure you aren't invited.
Wait, wait! Don't cry. You can come.
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| | | 1634 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Thu, Aug 27, 2015, 19:23
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Tell it to Memory Pizza. Of course they don't really want a pizza or a cake. They want us to starve to death or lose our religion.
When the shoe is on the other foot tho...
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| | | 1636 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 12:58
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will end up making religion illegal
yes. that's extremely likely in a nation where 75 percent of the population identifies as Christian.
ironically, the only person i've actually ever seen on this boards in favor of, in fact, downright demanding of, religious persecution, is you, Baldwin.
It is amazing how muslims throwing gays off precipices doesn't trigger liberals, but the thot I might not celebrate their 'marriage' has their panties all in a bunch.
and that's where you're wrong. no one gives on $hit if you celebrate their marriage. NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOU BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ASKING YOU TO CELEBRATE, they're just asking you not to be such a hate-filled dickhole.
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| | | 1637 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 13:06
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They don't care about me at all. They care about their own dominance of the culture. They simply demand I recognize and approve of their lifestyle or give up being employed.
A far cry from the traditional live and let live.
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| | | 1638 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 17:27
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there is a difference between recognition, and approval. you can't use them interchangeably.
further more, i must have missed something where your job was in jeopardy because of marriage equality.
are you a gay escort on the side, or something similar?
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| | | 1639 | Boldwin
ID: 2711516 Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 17:39
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You missed the Al-Anfal campaign working it's way thru the professions, getting people fired for donations to prop 8, random posts on social media, refusing wedding pizzas, etc.
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| | | 1640 | Tree
ID: 161036918 Sun, Aug 30, 2015, 21:54
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no, i didn't. it happened nearly 20 years ago.
i'm sorry you lost your job because of something that happened in Iraq.
i feel for you and your kurdish brothers and sisters who lost their jobs in Illinois.
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