Self Editor

Forum: pol
Page 2479
Subject: Rita

Posted by: biliruben - Leader [589301110] Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 16:22

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 16:25

Cat 5, so this deadly lady needs her own thread.

Sludge
ID: 27751510
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 17:17

Most of my family (direct and in-laws) lives in Lake Charles, LA and environs. My wife's mother said that she can't promise anything when Gini tried to get her to promise to leave if Rita takes a turn to the North. *sigh* Then she asked her sister, and she said that they haven't even thought of it yet. *sigh again* Of course there's only one answer to the question my wife asked after telling me this: "Am I the only half-sane one in my family?" (One of Gini's aunt-uncle pairs who were in Lake Charles for the surgery of Gini's grandfather actually drove from Lake Charles TO Mississippi earlier than they planned when Katrina was bearing down so that they could beat the storm there.)

And no, I didn't give the full answer. I simply said "Yes". Of course, the full answer, in case you're wondering, is: "Yes, but let's not go much more than half."

Texas Flood
ID: 448302115
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 18:02

I've never seen a hurricane up close and personal I can only imagine how terrifying it must be.

I live in blizzard country and have experienced several of those in my lifetime and we are always prepared for the worst come winter. Extra food, wood for the fire place, full tanks of gas, gas for the snow removal equipemnt & snowmobiles, a generator, xc skis and snowshoes, radios, batteries and on and on.

If I lived in hurricane country I would most likely be prepared to leave at the slightest hint of a hurricane. It's just common sense.

Sludge, hope your family plays it safe!

sarge33rd
ID: 27563010
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 19:05

katie just called. One of the gals she works with, says that certain grocers have apparently doubled (?) their price for bottled water. I told her to find out which stores and then to call the state atty generals office, city hall and that stores hq.

katietx
ID: 56723120
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 19:29

Mayor of Austin is urging folks to stock up on water (from home thank you), fill up your cars, get candles, batteries, etc.

While we won't actually be in the direct path of the storm, heavy rains, tornados, high winds, downed power lines and other assorted fun things will be expected beginning sometime Saturday.

Local EMS stated they may not be able to respond to all calls if we get heavy rain due to flooding. The soil here is quite "rocky" and heavy runoff will cause some problems.

sarge33rd
ID: 27563010
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 19:34

yeah lol EMS says they wont be able to handle it, Mayor syas we prolly wont have running water or electricity...but gddmn-it...you can go buy a friggin car. *shaking head*

katietx
ID: 56723120
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 20:10

or a book, latte, CD, DVD...I'm absolutely POSITIVE that B&N won't be closed.

sarge33rd
ID: 27563010
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 20:55

wont be able to run cash registers w/o power, or run the cafe w/o running water/power. Computers wont work.
lol
Unmitigated greed...results in sheer stupidity.

sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 21:53

well, 4 people quit over being open Sunday. Said there was a reason they worked at this dealership, said,"We were told when hired; "We're not open Sundays." If that was a lie, what else is?", and out the door they went.

wolfer
Sustainer
ID: 18639422
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 22:16

I could not find the link to support this. They were saying on ESPN (the B game Astros- Pirates) that the Astros might have a problem playing their home games next week. The field at Minute Maid is 16 feet below sea leavel.

culdeus
ID: 31630622
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 23:49

I heard on the ticket today that MM was 49 feet above sea level.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Wed, Sep 21, 2005, 23:51

Mainsteam Media?

culdeus
ID: 31630622
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 08:46

Minute Maid.

Toral
ID: 10858715
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 08:48

Enforcement of the price gouging law in Texas:
"If you suspect a business is price gouging, call the Office of the Attorney General's Consumer protection hotline toll-free at 1-800-337-3928 or e-mail us at greg.abbott@oag.state.tx.us"

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 09:55

Great. Seems that a majority of the computer models are indicating a continuing Eastern turn bringing it right through Lake Charles, even though most tracks I see on the news bring it straight through Galveston. My mom is clearing out, but Gini's family is staying in her parent's house (mom, dad, grandfather, sister, 3 nephews, probably an aunt and uncle or two). *sigh* At least there are no worries of a storm surge; Moss Bluff (which is slightly North of Lake Charles, and is where we grew up, the wife and I) is about 30 miles North of the coast and is 15-30 feet above sea level. Her parents' house is towards the upper end of that. So all they should have to worry about is the wind and tornadoes. Yeah... that's all.

Mayor of Lake Charles has already called for a mandatory evacuation of everything South of I-10, and will likely call for a mandatory evacuation of everything North of I-10 some time tonight.

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 10:07

Yikes - Can't talk 'em out of there? Still 30 miles from the coast is pretty far, I suppose...

Just noticed the opening post is continuing to track her.

Razor
ID: 36241218
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 10:19

If it were a Cat 1 or a Cat 2, maybe I would consider sticking around and riding it out in my house. No one should be messing around with a Cat 5 though. Katrina, a Cat 4, ripped the roof off the Superdome for godsakes. No one's house is safe.

Sludge
ID: 27751510
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 11:16

Katrina, a Cat 4, ripped the roof off the Superdome for godsakes. No one's house is safe.

While that is true, and I certainly agree with you, the circumstances are a bit different. Houses are generally lower-profile, and her parents' house is surrounded by significant tree cover on all sides which will act as a buffer (and to my recollection, there are no trees that pose an immediate threat of crashing through the house should they fall). The Superdome sits basically high up and out in the open.

Either way, however, it's insane that they're staying and no amount of pleading will get her dad to budge.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 11:20

Hope, then, that Rita scares him but doesn't harm the house.

wolfer
ID: 11520611
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 11:59

This backs up my post. ESPN was close, but not right.

Sludge
ID: 27751510
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 13:21

Well, my mom has apparently started to waffle. My sister is trying to talk her out of staying, and will probably succeed. She'll likely head to Baton Rouge to stay with my sister. My dad and step-mom are heading to Baton Rouge in the next 30 minutes or so. So that's good.

Several of my aunts and uncles are heading to my grandfather's house in Lake Charles. Yeah, they're idiots too. Some may head to Baton Rouge to hole up at my sister's, but they're not planning on leaving until late Friday, if at all. Baaad move.

Wife just spent 20 minutes "screaming" (her description) at her mom to leave. To no avail. Grrr... chances are small that anything will happen, but why take the chance?

Mandatory evacuation for all of Calcasieu Parish.

FRICK@Work
ID: 220211
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 14:13

I talked to my aunt last night and they were packing stuff to head out. They live in Baytown, just east of Houston, and only live about 5 miles from the Gulf. They were part of the mandatory evacuation.

katietx
ID: 56723120
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 18:26

News in Austin is that by the time Rita gets to us it will still be a Cat 1, but mainly east of I35. Great. Right where my son lives.

Grocery stores are out of water, bread, milk, batteries, etc. And many gas stations are out.

Appears to be an interesting weekend here in south central TX.

Stuck in the 60s
Dude
ID: 274132811
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 19:06

Katie:

Best wishes to you and Sarge. Stay safe

Don

Madman
ID: 114321413
Thu, Sep 22, 2005, 19:55

Man, sludge, best wishes to your family, even if they are experiencing the infamous cranium-rectal inversion problem that seems to grip Americans from time to time. Best wishes to katietx and sarge, as well.

Speaking of the infamous inversion, my wife is now outside of Houston. Yes, willingly; as I said, the inversion strikes everyone at some point in their lives. And I'm flying through Dallas on Sunday, or at least I'm supposed to.

Good grief. I'm rooting for Rita to drop to a Cat 3 by landfall. My wife wants the story, however. Ugh.

katietx
ID: 56723120
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 00:58

Storm appears to be moving to the east somewhat. I'm pretty sure Austin will get a bit of rain, as it stands now East TX and the Dallas area will get the brunt of it.

Madman, Sunday may not be a good day to be in Dallas. Wear your raincoat!

Madman
ID: 43410119
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 08:29

katietx -- yeah, no kidding. I'm just flying through ... but I'm not sure that is better ... massive delays are likely inevitable.

My wife was directed eastward instead of west; she's in LA.

This is going to get interesting.

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 08:51

Well, my mom arrived in Baton Rouge at about 3-4 AM. To finally convince her, it took a phone call from a friend of my sister's to my sister to tell her that I-10 from Lake Charles to Baton Rouge was clear sailing once you got about 10 miles outside of Lake Charles. Mom had planned on leaving about midnight or so, so 3-4 hours from LC to BR isn't too bad.

KPLC (NBC affiliate in LC) is reporting that they've had several callers early this morning telling them that the roads have cleared. Gini's going to try one more time to get her family to clear out. I doubt it'll work. Rita's continuing to weaken just a tiny bit, and any news in that direction is good news. Every little bit helps. National Weather Service is forecasting wind gusts of up to 95 MPH for Lake Charles. Certainly much better than 140 MPH sustained winds.

culdeus
ID: 31630622
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 09:14

It looks like it's gone east enough to only forecast light scattered showers Saturday night in Dallas here.

There was a bus explosion this morning killing alot of old folks. They think an o2 bottle exploded and that set off a chain reaction. 20+ people dead.

chode
ID: 51732141
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 15:14

I happen to be just west of downtown Houston right now. The news of the northern turn of the hurricane is obviously encouraging for people in town; not so much for people in Beaumont/Port Arthur/Louisiana. I expect lots of wind and rain, hope for the eye of the storm to continue as it is currently forecast (which would be a serious improvement from what people thought 24-48 hours ago) and hopefully minimal flooding where I'm holed up.

Traffic out of town on Wednesday/Thursday was by far the worst - it took a friend of mine 19 hours to drive to Dallas (normally 4-5 hor drive), and 12 of those were spent virtually parked on the freeway from downtown to The Woodlands (about 25 miles north of town). Temperature in the 100s, people going without a/c to conserve gas (which is scarce at best) ... people stranded on the side of the road with their cars on empty. Not good.

Razor
ID: 36241218
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 15:28

When's the last time two significant hurricanes made it through Florida and on into the Gulf of Mexico?

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 15:32

They kinda deeked around Florida, shot the gap between the tackles, er.. cuba and the keys, and ran for the endzone.

We had one last year that rebuilt in the gulf after running over the top of florida, right?

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 15:38

This is very cool.

Looks like Ivan missed florida completely but went back for a second dance in the gulf. Both Jeanne and Francis barely made it into the gulf.

They were all trying for Crawford, but they've taken a better approach this year.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 15:45

The deadliest natural disaster in US history:

Galveston, 1900.

The deadliest natural disaster in U.S. history, the Galveston hurricane of 1900 is estimated to have killed between 8,000 and 12,000 people. The Category 4 hurricane struck on September 8, 1900, leveling 12 city blocks, nearly three-quarters of the island city of Galveston, Texas

Madman
ID: 43410119
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:09

Razor -- define "significant". Two Cat. 1's hit Texas in 1989.

Same for Danny and Juan in Louisiana in 1985.

The last time two Cat 3's or higher hit in the Gulf was 1915 when the famous Galveston and New Orleans Cat 4's struck.

named hurricane list

Madman
ID: 43410119
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:11

And, don't forget about 1909: 4 hurricanes struck TX/LA, two of them cat 3's. Hopefully we won't have a return to some of those ugly hurricane seasons.

J
Leader
ID: 049346417
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:19

The city of Atlanta?!!?!?? is closing schools Monday and Tuesday because of Hurricane Rita at the request of Gov Sonny Perdue...to conserve fuel!!!

wtf?

Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:23

No Way Out: Many Poor Stuck in Houston

where have i heard this before?

look, it is really time for this country to change course. it's time to stop cutting taxes for the rich, and it's time to start giving to those who don't have.

enough is enough.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:37

Give 'em a break, Tree. They are just finally getting the last of the poor out of New Orleans... so they can remake it as some sort of ultra-wealthy theme park, if you hear some billionaires talk.

They'll get the poor out of Houston yet. Around Hollowean, dead or alive!

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:39

I hope to heck they've emptied Galveston. Noone would be stupid enough to try and ride out there, would they?

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:42

local news day before yesterday, showed a female corner store owner who refused to leave. Not only that, this gals daughter was coming in to "help" her hold down the fort so to speak. Havent heard since, but certainly hope they changed their attitudes about ti all.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:54

It looks like at least one suicidal twit is still in Galveston.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 16:58

I guess 2 - the cameraman is still there, I guess.

If you read the link in 34, there would be no way in heck you would be lingering about.

C.SuperFreak
ID: 53771616
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 18:00

My guess is that it's going to veer north and hit land somewhere between Port Arthur, TX and Sulphur, LA. Houston and Galveston will be spared the direct hit.

beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 03531815
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 18:08

It looks like New Orleans is going to take some of the storm. Not any of the red stuff but definetely some of the dark orange. I wonder if Katrina never hit New Orleans if the levees could've withstood Rita.

Jazz Dreamers
ID: 17513015
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 20:57

Sludge, my prayers are with your family. Madman, same goes for your wife.

Still living in exile from New Orleans, I hate to see this happening again. I can definitely say from experience that evacuating is the best option. Being forced to live without my possessions has helped realize how unimportant they really are. Being alive and having family and friends are the key. (As well as money saved away in case of an emergency.)

Madman
ID: 114321413
Fri, Sep 23, 2005, 23:28

Jazz -- same to you. Glad to know that you are doing ok. Keep us posted.

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 05:08

Gini just called her mom. So far their house is holding up, and the leading edge of the eyewall should be clearing them soon. It doesn't look to me like the trailing edge of the eyewall is near as organized, but certainly nothing's guaranteed. They've lost the entire fence and anything sticking up from their house (antenna, satellite dish, etc.).

Lake Charles is taking a brutal beating apparently. Most of Gini's family is sleeping better than we are, apparently; Gini refuses to go to sleep and is looking for information anywhere she can get it, while I've gotten maybe a half-hour's worth. Hard to not watch or listen.

Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 07:44

"Don't get stuck on stupid."

Texas Flood
ID: 326462912
Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 11:03

Honore reminds me of my old high school football coach (in a good way). There is very little doubt as to what the guy in thinking or what he means when he speaks. I'm sure he didn't advance to his rank by being "Stuck on Stupid".

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 21:41

Everyone on both sides of the family accounted for. Just now finally heard about Gini's parents and sister. Phones are down in that area, but my uncle and step-father basically cut their way there to check in on them. Haven't heard from many of the friends we still have down there; hopefully they were smart enough to get out of the way.

Kind of makes me wonder... how much of the clearing of the roads is done by actual city, state, and parish employees, and how much is done by folks with a chain saw just looking to get out or get in?

The Treasonists
ID: 58638223
Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 23:04

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Sat, Sep 24, 2005, 23:15

Great to hear your fam is a-okay, Sludge.

My chainsaw is solar-powered so I would shiznet out of luck. ;)

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 16:41

re 52,

because the TX Atty General has stated that price gouging in the face of a natural disasters, will result in severe penalties.

Sludge
ID: 587202918
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 19:53

because the TX Atty General has stated that price gouging in the face of a natural disasters, will result in severe penalties.

Well, no. The Attorney General doesn't make the laws, nor does he set the penalties.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 20:08

Doesn't sound like he was doing either. Sounds like he was citing the law, an act entirely within his purview.

sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 21:36

TY PD. Thought that much was fairly obvious, apparently not.

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 21:53

No, no, no...

Treasonists asked why gouging was illegal. You said it was illegal "because the TX Atty General has stated...". (Emphasis added.) What's "fairly obvious" is that your smugness is not at all warranted.

sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 22:02

Sludge, I'm fairly certain that after serving as an MP Investigator, (not to mention living past the age of 6), I know full well that State Atty Gen's dont make/pass laws. They enforce them. Not all laws however, are aggressively or even actively enforced. If necessary, and apparently it is, I'll break down my future posts to the "see Jane run" level, so as to not confuse you. (or anybody else whose tendency is to take a literal interpretation and then turn off their own cognitive reasoning capacity.)

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 22:19

You didn't come anywhere close to answering his question when it was apparent that he either truly didn't know or wished to begin a discussion about the merits of allowing or disallowing gouging. That is, the competing interests of a free-market system where demand determines price versus making it illegal for people to charge exorbitant prices when people can least afford it.

Any interpretation I could have applied to your post, sarge - literal or otherwise - still would have come nowhere close to an appropriate answer to his question. If he were, indeed, in the former camp (i.e. truly didn't know), then your reason would have been so far from an appropriate answer, I felt it necessary to point out that it was not such.

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 22:20

And try to stop deflecting my criticisms by patronizing me. It plays about as well as your hyperbole.

sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 22:23

post 58 was patronizing, post 59 was sarcastic.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 22:26

Sludge, your only criticism seemed to be a textual one. It was hairsplitting, and beneath your posting. You can certainly bring up points about gouging, but instead you chose to try to correct sarge on another point entirely, of ambiguity about what is appropriate for an AG in framing their language.

When called one it, your personal distaste for sarge comes out in spades.

pd

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 22:39

It was hairsplitting, and beneath your posting.

Please, PD. What is this forum about (and politics in general, for that matter) if not hairsplitting? As I've stated many times before, I am perfectly content to engage in nitpicking and hairsplitting if I feel it serves a purpose.

When called one it, your personal distaste for sarge comes out in spades.

I have no personal distaste for sarge, PD. I have a distaste for his constant use of hyperbole, and his constant ignoring or unintentioned misinterpretations of well-stated points and simple questions. (Heaven forbid I suggest it's something other than unintentional.) Nor have I ever tried to hide it, as should be apparent.

... ut instead you chose to try to correct sarge on another point entirely, of ambiguity about what is appropriate for an AG in framing their language.

I disagree, PD. The reason I would disagree is because the attorney general shouldn't even come up in a conversation (even one in its infancy) about why price gouging is (or should be) illegal. An AG is completely irrelevant.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 22:47

Last point first: That's similar to asking the head of FEMA about routes in and out of New Orleans. It shouldn't come up either, but it does because he's on the scene.

And in an area in which the fear of price gouging (actual or imagined) is going around, it's certainly appropriate for an AG to remind people of what the law says in case people think they can go around and just raise the prices willy-nilly.

Middle point: I apologize. You're distaste for sarge's posting style has, indeed, been clear. There's just never been any distinction between that and your like or dislike of the man. You're hardly required to make that distinction, however, so I apologize.

First point: I stand by my post #56. It borders on criticizing someone for spelling or grammar. You have a political point to make then make it. Don't try to make it through some "well-scored" point on whether a cited source should have said what they didn't actually say.

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 23:00

First point: I stand by my post #56. It borders on criticizing someone for spelling or grammar.

While I agree that it may seem so, it's not PD. Someone criticizing someone for spelling or grammar is petty because, in the vast majority of the cases, the poster's meaning and intention is clear. I spell "there" when I mean "their", and the context makes it clear.

In this case, however, sarge proffered a reason why gouging was illegal. As it was the only one proffered, it is apparently what he felt was the reason it was illegal. At least that's the only interpretation that one can draw from it. To wit, that it is so because the AG says it's so. There's no other way to interpret his post.

And as to your contention that the AG's statements being relevant in a discussion of price gouging, sure they are. But they take on a very ancillary role in a discussion of why price gouging is illegal. Even one in its infancy.

Sludge
ID: 14411118
Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 23:12

And re-reading your posts, PD, you seem to have the impression that I'm saying that the AG shouldn't be going around saying what the law is and what the penalties are for breaking the law. I've said no such thing.

The Treasonists
ID: 58638223
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 00:11

I just meant that it was their own bottled water. Can't they charge what they want for it? Are they required to even sell it at all?

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 00:16

They can't charge prices higher by a certain percentage over what they paid for it. Even if, when they bought it, they had no intention of reselling it, they still cannot sell it higher by a certain percentage over their original purchase price.

sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 00:33

Cant recall atm which hurricane it was. Late 80's and it blasted into the Carolinas.(Hugo I'm thinking??) IIRC, thats the one that really started the price-gouging and complaints. I seem to remember hearing that lumberyards who had normally charged (at the time) something on the order of $24/sheet for plywood, were upto the area of $125/sheet 2 days before landfall. Seems to me, the Feds stepped in, and a good many states took action regarding the practice then as well.

argument has been made about "allowing natural market forces" etc etc etc. The TX Atty Gen addressed that topic in a televised discussion with an Economist the other day. (sorry, cat recall the guys name but he works on wall-street? The Atty Gens point is, the oncoming natural disaster, creates an un-natural market condition which is confined to a relatively isolated geography and is present for a very short period of time. The Govt stepping in, isnt interferring with natural market forces, since those forces have been displaced by an abnormally invasive event. Went on to say, the Govt has a responsibility to protect its citizenry. If it means telling a capitalist that he cannot make 600% profit (where 10% is the norm) on goods necessary for the immediate survival of that population, then thats what it means.

That the topic is even debated, is sickening to me. Why do we need to defend Govt action to protect the welfare of the masses, against rampant and unadulterated greed? (If you dispute that it is pure greed, why else charge $10 today for what sold for $2 yesterday and will again tomorrow?) Its pure and simple, taking advantage of the life threatening scenario encompassing the citizenry. For my blood, I'd just as soon record which stores were doing the gouging, and assure that everyone in the area knew about it and changed stores after the threat was over. Let the greedy bstrds go bankrupt.

The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 10:37

http://blog.mises.org/blog/archives/004038.asp

Actually capping the price is a sure-fire method for creating shortages. Just the opposite of what you want. Who would want to stock up on water and batteries, etc if you're going to be accused or arrested for alleged price-gouging.

Plus the first person is going to come along and say...Wow this ice is cheap, I'm going to buy a couple extra bags just in case, even though I don't really need them. If they were $20 per bag, they likely wouldn't do that. When the 10th person comes in, desperate to buy ice at any price, there is none. He may lose $300 in spoiled meat and be happy to pay $20 per bag.

Seller B sees seller A making a killing on ice and figures he will stock up on ice for the next emergency. This will result in a lower price and less shortages at the critical time.

Why is it not price-gouging at the Astro's game, where every thing costs $6 that in the outside world is 1 or 2 dollars. I just think people don't think this issue through and instead have a quick PC reaction.

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 10:42

price gouging results in class-discrimination. The demand for whatever commodity is alreadythere. (Not created by market forces, ut by the impending disaster.) Since the demand is artificial and not a result of market forces, the product will sellout without regard to price. Thus, gouging, deprives the impoverished of equal opportunity to purchase essential goods, while favoring the wealthy. Its a discriminatory practice rooted in a predatory nature.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 10:52

shortages occur because of supply problems or people overbuying. In lieu of no supply problems, the only way to create a shortage is by forgetting to limit the purchases.

In fact, in most cases limiting the purchases (i.e., the amount of a product one can buy) is used to keep a shortage from occuring.

Technically, price-gouging laws are not caps, at least, not in the "hard cap" way that people want them to be to fit their theories. Price gouging laws say that you cannot raise your price more than a certain percentage over your costs. If your costs go up, it's not price gouging to raise the price of the product.

The fact is, however, that price-gouging has a backlash effect on the people charging those prices. After the cleanup, people do remember the businesses that tried to gouge them during the tough times. I remember working up in Wisconsin after huge windstorms had knocked out buildings and power in large sections of the state. Some places were charging $500 for chainsaws. Others (rental places, mostly) were giving them out with a copy of a driver's license, telling people to bring them back when they were done. Guess which places closed down within a few months?

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 11:03

I was just about to post PD, that IMHO, a store would probably do well for the longterm, if prior to an event such as these hurricanes, they actually pulled all the bottled water off the shelves and put it up for safe keeping. Then when the storm subsides, pull it out and donate it to recovery workers, survivors etc. The tax benefits, combined with the image created, would do more to spur future sales and profits than much any amount of adverttiing/marketing possibly could. Your tale re the chain-saws, would seem to support that contention.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 11:35

We had some terrible icestorms come through in January, limited to the Pocono plateau, but really devastating (about a quarter of all the trees came down, and power was out for about a week).

One of the local large grocery stores started giving away gallons of water--all you had to do was give them your phone number and you can get up to four gallons a day. While many of us had city water and didn't need it, most of the area was serviced by well water and without electricity they counldn't pump up the water.

I hardly went there before, but that store still continues to get our business.

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 11:37

re 71:

Seller B sees seller A making a killing on ice and figures he will stock up on ice for the next emergency. This will result in a lower price and less shortages at the critical time.

Deliveries occur for the most art, on a weekly basis from each vendor. How if delivery occurs on Tues, does a store "stockup" on ice come Fri, due to an impending potential hurricane on Sunday? That is a fallacy. Again, the increased demand is not market driven (if it were, your example would be valid) but rather is panic/fear driven.

Why is it not price-gouging at the Astro's game, where every thing costs $6 that in the outside world is 1 or 2 dollars.

The consumer voluntarily enters the stadium, after purchasing the ticket(s) which grant access. One does not voluntarily, endure a hurricane. Apples and oranges comparative, holding little to no validity.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Sep 26, 2005, 11:49

It's not price gouging at at Astros game because those vendors have to pay huge amounts of money to sell in the stadiums. Fees easily triple the price of the food and drink. They are actually charging relative to their cost (my guess is that, in some cases, they might actually be charging at or below cost for food).

The Treasonists
ID: 58638223
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 00:22

So let me see if I follow this:

If you buy a coke at the Astro's game for $6 that typically costs $1, that's not price gouging. However, if you buy a coke for $6 that typically costs $1 before, during, or after a possible hurricane... that is price gouging and the seller can be fined or jailed.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 00:28

No, you're not following at all.

If you buy a Coke in a store for $1 and it cost the store (effectively) $.50, it's not price gouging to buy it for $6 at the stadium when it costs the vendor (effectively) $5.50.

Typically, you're not going to buy a Coke in the stadium for $1. But if you could, and suddenly the price jumped up by 500%, you might have a case for investigating price gouging.

Price gouging isn't about price to the consumer (though that's how it is often noticed), but about net profit.

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 01:41

The crux is that there is no market in a stadium. It's a monopoly. Why you are looking there for a shining example of market forces, I have no idea.

Razor
ID: 36241218
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 09:53

There are tons of examples of market forces not being able to run their natural course in our economy. I don't why some try to cite this as a breakdown of free society as we know it.

Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 10:02

Um...because the stadium environment is a monopoly controlled by a trust with an exemption from congress from laws that would effect any other business situation. Further breaking it away from real world economics is the fact that popularity allows the trust to pass on all the price gouging demands of the world's greediest union.

The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 10:22

All I know is that I'm paying $6 for something that should cost $1. That's pretty much the defenition of price gouging. I don't really care who is paying rent to who. There is one simple solution to stop people who are trying to price gouge you though.....DON'T BUY IT.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 10:30

What the?

The effect on prices in a stadium is very simple. It has nothing to do with some kind of lawlessness or Congressional exemption. It's the same reason that prices in New York (for example) are so much higher than elsewhere: Rent.

When the vendor pays very high rental fees they have to charge more for their product. A vendor ourside the stadium may have to pay $2000/month for a small storefront and can sell Cokes for a buck. A vendor inside the stadium might have to pay $2000/game (or more). Guess how they make it up?

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 12:06

I got reverse-gouged! Went to by the cheap stuff at Shell, and they were all out. Instead they were charging cheap-stuff prices ($2.84/g) for the extra-special Valve-Hummer 94 octane, or whatever.

Buy Shell.

sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 13:24

All I know is that I'm paying $6 for something that should cost $1.

Therein lies the probem with your cited allegation/claim/example. You have NO idea what the product should cost, because you have no idea of the vendors cost of doing business. If my raw product cost is $.25 and mt per piece fixed costs break down to $.25, I can sell that product for $1 and all is well. When however, my raw product cost is $.25 and my fixed costs climb to $2.75, the adjusted price of $6 represents an identical profit margin. Same reason a $1 burger is $7.50 at the airport. Sq ft space at an airport for retail is obscene high. Thus, the cost of the goods sold there is likewaise obscene high.

Further, the consumer voluntary places him/herself within that monopolostic environment. "Let the buyer beware". You know the price structure prior to entering the facility. In the hurricane scenario, you aren't entering a facility, you are fleeing death.

To further illustrate the obscenity of your position, lets use the vehicular evacuation of Houston, the resulting traffic jams and assume that gas stations along the way had raised their proices to $10/gal so as to not "run out" of gas (as many did.) Now, you've created a climate where the avg folks in their 92 Luminas, cannot evacuate. Only the wealthy can. Explain how that is "good" for the market?

The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 14:03

If the average folks in this country drive a 1992 Lumina, we're all in trouble. If one is fleeing death as you claim, I imagine they would pay for gas at any price. It seems to me a prudent person would save some money for a rainy day. Or in this case, a really, really, rainy day.

The problem is that supply cannot keep up with the sudden increase in demand. Some of that demand used to be met by hoarders and profiteers who would buy it cheap and wait around for a disaster and then sell it at a big profit. The well-intentioned crack down on so-called price-gougers has eliminated this much-needed source of supply. I'm not really talking about gas here, but ice and batteries and bottled water.

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 14:11

Cracking down on price gougers makes supply more equitably distributed.

Rainy day savings be damned. When you've got no banks and someone wants $200 cash for you to fill up your car you're screwed.

The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 15:18

If those Houston people didn't have to pay an extra $5 for stuff at the Astro's games, they might have money left to pay for $10 per gallon gas. lq

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 15:35

Heh. True dat.

Of course, if Houston (and other cities) hadn't gotten conned into paying for their stadia and upkeep in the first place, their citizens might be able to save up that rainy day fund.

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 10:06

6 mill people live in HOuston are. I dont believe the stadium will seat them all. Thus, your argument is moot, your position is weak, your contention is flse. Your refusal to see this, shows your inflexibility and blindness to reality. I'm assuming then, you carry your lifetime membership with the RNC daily?

The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 13:56

Maybe, but at least I can spell.

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 13:59

sew kan eye. ittts mie keebored haz da trubble.

The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 14:02

Perhaps you should replace that Ebonics keyboard with an English one.

Razor
ID: 128461621
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 14:03

Maybe, but you need to brush up on the rules for forming possessives.

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 14:05

sorry T, here I thought you maybe wanted to intelligently discuss a topic, not rail against typos by one who types while at work and between other tasks.

Since you refuse to address the issue, I assume you have nothing further to say.

Sludge
ID: 27751510
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 14:18

sarge - sorry T, here I thought you maybe wanted to intelligently discuss a topic

Also sarge - I'm assuming then, you carry your lifetime membership with the RNC daily? (Unprovoked as far as I can tell, I might add.)

From time-to-time, I see or hear a discussion of our persistent misunderstanding of exactly what qualifies as "ironic" or as "irony". I can understand this misunderstanding because there are many shades of grey as to what, exactly, is "ironic". (A fun example is the song "Isn't it Ironic" by Alanis Morissette, where she doesn't include a single ironic thing in the whole song. Of course, that in and of itself makes the whole thing ironic. Don'tcha think? So she's either a genius or clueless. But I digress.)

I wonder if the above quotes, taken together and in their proper time-sequence and context, would qualify as irony?

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 14:39

more like frustration.

Treasonists raised a question (the validity of which I doubted and I was called to task for that, by you no less.)

I then responded with the precise "why" which he asked for. He hassince then, derided every explanation and continue to counter with the example ofa voluntary monopolistic market which has no comparative vlue or validity.

When those facts are pointed out to him, he ignores them, and instead attacks my typing. (More accurately, my lack of proofing before hitting the "post" button.)

It is that derisive evasiveness, which causes me to pretty much "dismiss" him as unworth my further time.

sarge33rd
ID: 670916
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 15:06

to finish my last now,

IOW, if there is irony, it is to be found in the fact that my original impression was correct, though only born out after trying to do things "your way".

100

chode
ID: 316142013
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 15:30

Unintelligible as always. Cheers!

101

The Treasonists
ID: 57225913
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 17:58

Sorry, Sarge, I had a vast right-wing conspiracy meeting. We have some good stuff coming up.

I don't see the point in arguing anymore. You think $6 is a reasonable price for a coke at an Astro's game and I don't.

You think that cracking down on so-called price-gougers has no effect on supply and I do.

You think that Post 89 is serious and I don't. I even wrote lq.

102

Toral
ID: 10858715
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 18:11

Course the $8 hot dog is only possible because the team/stadium only allows approved vendors in there and makes big money in the process.

Won't search for the piece, but Bill James once argued, seriously I think, for a federal law that would require stadia to allow anybody in to sell food, allowing market forces to work. The argument was contained in a dialogue between an interviewer and an imaginary Senator, but I suspect James would seriously advocate it, altho you can't always tell; he's not usually an advocate of government intervention. Without looking it up, I don't remember what he said about stadia's rights to part of the take, which is a key part of the equation.

Toral

103

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 18:31

Actually T, I dont think any price is reasonable at an Astros game. You see, thats baseball, and I havent bought a baseball ticket since the strike of '93. I avoid the stadiums, I avoid the $6 hot dogs and $7.50 cokes, I have no complaint. If however fleeing from a hurricane and my vehicle runs low on fuel, I have no choice. That is the essential difference. The one is optional, the other is forced upon you.

104

Sludge
ID: 27751510
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 11:45

My sister posted the pictures I alluded to in the Katrina thread:

Rita damage in Lake Charles and environs

105

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 12:07

Great and stunning pics, Sludge.

What happened to the dogs in the runs?

106

Sludge
ID: 27751510
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 12:37

What happened to the dogs in the runs?

Are you referring to the dog kennels in the back of my grandfather's yard? This one?

107

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 12:52

Yeah. Any pups?

108

Sludge
ID: 27751510
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 13:06

My grandfather used to raise bird dogs years and years ago, which is the reason for the permanent dog kennels. They now have two: a chocolate lab named June Bug and a mutt named... well... Mutt. There is little doubt that the dogs went with them when they evacuated to Arkansas.

109

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 13:24

Good to hear.

My wife is spending many hours a day doing work for PetFinder.com, trying to match people who have lost pets (or were forced to leave them behind) with organizations and individuals who have rescued them. It's heart-breaking work.

110

sarge33rd
ID: 148422311
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 13:38

my pc here at work, is having a real hard time with trying to load/run the pics ina slideshow. will have to wit until this evening to look them all over. Some of the scenes (4-8 IIRC???) remind me of Iowa in the '93 floods. Of course, we didnt get the 100+ mph winds along with it, so no comparison in overall damage/destruction. They just looked eerily familiar.

Its "awesome" (not in a good way obviously), the raw power that nature is able to unleash from time to time. (any physics major types care to compute and define in laymans terms, the amount of energy required to move a 20' wall of water, 50 miles at 40 mph???)

111

Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 13:45

all the money i gave went to groups helping with the animals.

our dog passed away in June, and we're still reeling from it. in the past month we thought about adopting a Katrina dog, but we've got a couple vacations scheduled between now and the end of the end of the year and didn't think it would be fair.

we're probably going to wait until January...

112

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 14:04

When you're ready, Tree, check out Petfinder.

We have a couple of dogs from the NYC animal shelter, BTW.

113

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 14:54

I friend of mine returned after a week's rescue work in New Orleans with a very cute and sweet, if malnourished, pit-boxer cross.

That's could be one way to spend your vacation, Tree. Hand pick one while helping some others.

114

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 15:07

bili,

Lots of people got some nice animals down there, but I'm crossing my fingers that your sister checked to make sure that no one is still looking for the animal. Many people who went down there brought back animals that are being searched for by the families who lost them. I'm sure your sister wouldn't want to have taken a pet that might have a family trying to find it.

115

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 15:17

Yeah, she's (it's not my sister) technically fostering. It was at Posado for two weeks before she brought it north. No tags. No chip. No name. Just poor little A31.

Had a huge tumor on it's leg, bad skin condition, and it's ribs were evident through it's skin even 3 weeks after getting 2 squares a day. It had obviously not been taken care of. If it had owners that survived, there was no way to locate them.

She left all her info in case someone did show up looking for a dog by that description, but I think that possibiity is remote at best.

116

Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 15:29

It's very hard to find the owners (still) since many of them are not back, and ones that are (who even had internet service) are not back online. We're getting people from other states (California, for instance) who have fostered dogs & cats and now want to adopt them out "because Katrina was two months ago." Grrrr.

If you don't mind, would you ask (as a favor to a stranger) for her to enter what little information she knows about the dog into the Petfinder Found A Pet database?

I probably wouldn't care much either way (given the very small chance of matching up any animals with their families) but the stories are heartbreaking, and there have been enough successes to know that the more the central databases are used, the better the chances of a match (and, I know from some, that it helps ease the mind of people who want to adopt the animal permanently, knowing that everything was done to try to locate the family).

117

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Oct 10, 2005, 15:33

She's been haunting Petfinder for a couple years looking for a dog, so I would guess she has already entered Ruby in the database (she was also very concerned about these issues), but I'll pass along your concerns just the same.

If she did have owners, they were pretty uncaring owners by the physical evidence, however, and Ruby is now in a significantly more loving environment.

118

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Oct 17, 2005, 21:28

WIIIILLLLMMMMAAAA!

Our floater in the top thread has shifted to Fred's little hottie.

It's just getting rolling, so hard to predict how big it will get or where it's heading.

She ties a record.

119

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 10:06

70 mph and climbing. The models currently have her building in the gulf, then hooking east into Miami, though it's too early to get very accurate, I think.

120

Seward Norse
ID: 587262710
Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 10:34

Gas prices are already reported to be rising. Fuel up!

121

smallwhirled
ID: 37929121
Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 22:45

Update:

11PM, 110MPH, 945 MB

Wilma has been undergoing rapid intensification pretty much all day now. There are VERY cold cloud tops. Colder than Katrina and Rita. NHC still has it as a 4 at max intensity, but this thing has at least a 50-50 shot of getting to a 5 during the day tommorrow. Once it gets picked up by the westerlies, it will be sheared, some, but if it is moving as quickly as anticipated it there will be major wind damage cutting across the entire state around the path of the eye.

We'll know more tommorrow, but Tampa to the Keys is what it looks like as a major hurricane, AGAIN!

122

R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 07:01

Already a catagory 5, with the lowest barometric pressure ever recorded.

123

smallwhirled
ID: 37929121
Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 07:46

I wrote that last night, but didn't think I'd wake up to this. Just unbelievable how fast this thing strengthened.

124

smallwhirled
ID: 37929121
Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 07:53

We'll see what happens now. It was an 85 mb drop in 12 hours. That is pretty ridiculous right there. It did this with only a 2-4 nautical mile pinhole eye and the hurricane windfield is very small. I think the windfield will begin to spread now that it's reached such a low pressure. It's the dark colors on the IR that is what is so unbelievable, it was like that all day yesterday and only a matter of time before this type of strengthening happened. What a feat, I am speechless.

125

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 09:58

Yikes.

126

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 11:29

NOAA

127

biliruben
ID: 531202411
Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 11:31

AT 800 AM EDT...THE CENTER OF HURRICANE WILMA WAS LOCATED NEAR
LATITUDE 18.3 NORTH...LONGITUDE 85.2 WEST...OR ABOUT 485 MILES SOUTH
SOUTHWEST OF KEY WEST. HURRICANE WILMA IS MOVING TOWARD THE
WEST-NORTHWEST NEAR 7 MPH. A TURN TO THE NORTHWEST IS EXPECTED LATER
TODAY. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NOW NEAR 145 MPH... WITH HIGHER
GUSTS. WILMA IS A CATEGORY FOUR HURRICANE ON THE SAFFIR SIMPSON
SCALE. SOME RE-STRENGTHENING IS FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS.
THE MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE WAS REPORTED AT 910 MB...OR 26.87
INCHES OF MERCURY.

128

biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 18:35

Landfall in Cancun.

"Uh, dear? Next honeymoon check the weather channel, would ya?"

129

Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 19:17

I heard some weather commentator on NPR? call it 'almost like a large tornado more than a hurricane, with the center being so compact'.

130

biliruben
ID: 38751812
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 15:27

Meet Gustav...

131

Building 7
ID: 174591519
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 08:32

Looks like I won't have to water my lawn for awhile.

Forum: polPage 2479Subject: Rita

Forum: pol
Page 2479
Subject: Rita