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| Posted by: Myboyjack
- Dude [014826271] Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 08:43
The EU and the UN want to run the internet. God help us.
A tense dispute over US control of the Internet in the run-up to the World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS) could eventually lead to the break-up of the global network and hamper seamless browsing, officials warned. ....
Robert Shaw of the UN's International Telecommunication Union, said: "Since the positions are so polarised we may end up with a fractured Internet."
Either the search for a "democratic" international solution prevails, or the Internet could fragment into a multitude of networks before an eventual international coordination mechanism sticks them back together, he added....
The outcome could determine who eventually controls the Internet's technical and administrative infrastructure, which allows the computer network to function worldwide.
At the moment that role is played by the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers ( ICANN), a California-based independent body which is awarded the task by the US government on a renewable tender.
ICANN was set up in California in 1998 when the Internet boom was largely focused on the United States.
It is run by a group of free-spirited enthusiasts who were anxious to avoid regulation of the Internet. About 30 governments have a purely advisory role....
"The idea that the Internet is an unregulated haven, these days are finished," a source close to the talks said.
The European Union is proposing a formula that would replace US government oversight with a purely technical intergovernmental body -- though not necessarily the UN -- after a transition phase.
Governments, industry and campaigners would also gather in a separate "forum" to discuss other related issues, including "public policy", under the EU proposal.
British delegation chief Nicholas Thorne described the offer as "the middle ground".
Washington's letter retorted that "burdensome, bureaucratic oversight is out of place in an Internet structure that has worked so well for so many around the globe".
"We regret that recent positions on Internet governance offered by the EU seem to propose just that -- a new structure of intergovernmental control over the Internet."
The US, backed by Australia, has also argued that regimes that do not value freedom of speech might exploit weaknesses in a UN-supervised system.
From the people who gave us Libya on the UN Human Rights Commission and the administrative nightmare and thought police that is the EU comes the idea to detroy the internet as we know it. Imagine having to negotioate with the Chinese and Saudi Arabian delegations for your next domain. Screw this.
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| | | 1 | Madman
ID: 43410119 Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 09:06
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Well, the EU itself doesn't exactly have a stellar free speech record, as far as I am concerned.
As long as Bush and co. stand their ground, what's the problem?
Surely we can protect ourselves from foreign meddling. I browse a ton on the internet, and aside from UN, EU, and other governmental sites, I seldom go outside the US. There are some international bloggers I check in with, but surely they can develop work-arounds. Ditto for the Financial Times and the like.
Multinational companies may have bigger issues, I suspect, but I hardly have sympathy for them.
Dunno, just some thoughts; I haven't followed this in detail. Is there any particular reason I should be concerned, as long as the US doesn't sign on to their claptrap? Aside from the obvious harm it may do to others around the globe, of course.
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| | | 2 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 09:11
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Dunno, just some thoughts; I haven't followed this in detail. Is there any particular reason I should be concerned, as long as the US doesn't sign on to their claptrap?
My concern is that the pressure for the US to sign on will be succumbed to. Particularly so, with the good prospects of an anti-Bush multi-lateral-loving, President in 2008.
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| | | 3 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 09:19
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Despite the fact that ours already does, governments should have no part in the Internet. Any government(ours or any of theirs) that seeks control does so in order to regulate the free flow of ideas and information. At first read, I'd guess that states which don't agree politically with the "controlling" state would be among the first targets, i.e. you'd not be able to access their "offending" sites. I certainly don't want a U.S. or EU filter put on what I read about Iran.
Don
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| | | 4 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 12:07
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The UN and the EU see the internet as a lever to greater power. For any government the internet poses an almost irresistable taxing opportunity which I am not certain even the US Congress would forever resist the temptation themselves.
Why worry? The power elite who really run things, who rig our process so we end up with only 2 bonesmen for a choice, are globalists whose real alliegance is to globalist dreams. Such as a UN empowered with internet tax booty.
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| | | 5 | Myboyjack
ID: 27651610 Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 12:37
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On why disctators love the idea of UN control of the internet.
From the same U.N. that in 2003 brought us Libya chairing the Human Rights Commission, there is of course the usual U.N. tragicomic touch of holding this summit in a dictatorship such as Tunisia, a country highlighted by Human Rights Watch this week as a place that "continues to jail individuals for expressing their opinions on the Internet and suppress Web sites critical of the government." That's from the press release accompanying a far more ample 144-page report entitled "False Freedom: Online Censorship in the Middle East and North Africa," which details obstacles placed in the way of Internet access, and penalties doled out to those who defy them, in places such as Iran, Syria, Egypt and Tunisia itself.
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| | | 6 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 07:45
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MBJ: What a hypocritical boatload of crap! This government, which used to be ours, now uses something it ironically calls the Patriot Act to isolate its citizens from the rights our original patriots fought and died for. We justify torture in the name of expediency, promote the death penalty (rejected around the civilized world as unworthy of post-medieval societies), then assert some right to regulate the Internet because states we define as unacceptable might (FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHAT MIGHT THEY DO?)
There is no "high ground" for the U.S. to claim any more. We forfeited that when we decided Abu Ghraib was an aberation, rather than an exercise in absolute power, corrupted absolutely. We gave it up at the gates of the secret prisons in Eastern Europe, where those who dare to contest absolute that power will remain beyond the reach of the laws that established America as the world's beacon of morality.
And so now we want the right to act as arbiter of the Internet because, what, we're afraid some country we don't agree with might say something bad that our citizens or their citizens might read? Are we now to begin policing the Internet the way we're doing in Iraq?
Don
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| | | 7 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 08:03
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Quiter:
(FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHAT MIGHT THEY DO?)
From immediate post above: That's from the press release accompanying a far more ample 144-page report entitled "False Freedom: Online Censorship in the Middle East and North Africa," which details obstacles placed in the way of Internet access, and penalties doled out to those who defy them, in places such as Iran, Syria, Egypt and Tunisia itself.
If you can't tell the difference between the US and say Iran or Egypt or Saudi Arabia - if those governments are morally indistinguishable to you and you are indifferent as to which of them best protects the liberties and rights of her citizens you'll find a lot of what I post to be a "boatload of crap"
There is no "high ground" for the U.S. to claim any more. We forfeited that when we decided Abu Ghraib was an aberation, rather than an exercise in absolute power, corrupted absolutely. We gave it up at the gates of the secret prisons in Eastern Europe, where those who dare to contest absolute that power will remain beyond the reach of the laws that established America as the world's beacon of morality.
That's funny. My grandfather's great grandfather was murdered in his home by Union sypathizers. The Northern Army commited numerous atrocities across the South from 1864-1865 that would make the prison guards at Abu Ghraib blush. Did the North thereby forfiet the "moral high ground" forever to the slaveholding South? Did the prsence of the carpet baggers forever stain the rigtness of ending slavery and preserving the Union. My Granddad thought so, but he wa raised backward.
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| | | 8 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 08:07
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Don if you were smart you'd delete that post because it far and away the dumbest position I have ever seen you post. There are lot of countries who would have taxed and censored the internet by now if they were in control. The UN will be calling those shots if globalists have anything to say about it. In case you hadn't noticed the number of countries who respect freedom of speech are far outnumbered by the little tinhorn despots who would censor the internet. But handing the keys over to them is a good idea is it? Wow is that ever a bad idea.
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| | | 9 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 08:08
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Are we now to begin policing the Internet the way we're doing in Iraq?
Yes that's it. The actions of our army in a war zone where we deposed a dictator and prduced the first, ever, free elections in an Arab country put a real cloud over the US desire to maintain private, independent control of the internet instead of allowing the democracy of dictators that is the UN ot screw it up. Good point.
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| | | 11 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 08:47
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Boldy, MBJ: I don't see my beloved America high on any recent list of protectors of freedom of speech. Rather, I see an increasing tendency to stifle dissent. None of this means there aren't worse places in the world, but it does mean that I long for the days when my country would no more consider launching a military invasion of another country than it would suggesting legislation like the Patriot Act.
Yes that's it. The actions of our army in a war zone where we deposed a dictator and prduced the first, ever, free elections in an Arab country put a real cloud over the US desire to maintain private, independent control of the internet instead of allowing the democracy of dictators that is the UN ot screw it up. Good point.
MBJ: I'd love to see you present a reasoned argument that doesn't rely more heavily on sarcasm than it does on facts or beliefs.
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| | | 13 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 08:55
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I don't see my beloved America high on any recent list of protectors of freedom of speech.
Really? Who's ahead of us on your list, I wonder. Bumps in the road aside, we've deposed two (2) murderous regimes in the past three (3) years and helped install a th startin gpoint form of self rule unknown to those countries. I' like to see the list that we're not high on.
Rather, I see an increasing tendency to stifle dissent.
What are examples of "dissent stifling" that would make you indifferent to turning over control of the free niternet to Syria?
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| | | 14 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 18:38
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There you go again!
Nothing I see would make me want to turn it over to Syria and nothing I have ever said, here or elsewhere, would lead to that conclusion.
Dissent stifling: there are lots of things. But it is particularly evident when someone like John Murtha announces (probably because the generals are less afraid to talk to him than to Rumsfeld) that the war is pointless, that there is no further mission there for them, he is attacked by White House minions for "giving aid to the enemy." Most of this crap is being orchestrated by Cheney, who would stifle a lot more than dissent if he were able.
MBJ: Many times, you yourself seem more eager to attack than to reason.
Don
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| | | 15 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 19:08
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MBJ: Many times, you yourself seem more eager to attack than to reason.
You mean reason like...
MBJ: What a hypocritical boatload of crap!
Your sole example of "dissent stifling" in America is the White House criticizing a Congressman, whose free to speak to millions any time he wants? That's it? This means we should allow the UN to control the internet?
Most of this crap is being orchestrated by Cheney, who would stifle a lot more than dissent if he were able.
What's stopping him? I thought the Patriot Act had already isolate[d] [our] citizens from the rights our original patriots fought and died for.
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| | | 16 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 25337239 Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 19:48
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More to the point...
I don't see my beloved America high on any recent list of protectors of freedom of speech.
I can think of one quite relevant high ground on which the US stands - the internet. You know, the topic.
Currently there are nations that permit its citizens total access to the internet, completely uncensored and free of any government fees.
Soon (if not already) there will be nations that charge taxes for accessing the internet. Consider that Germans pay a tax to access local broadcast TV - I'm told its enforced.
There are also some nations that censor the internet, picking and choosing what they will allow citizens to see.
And some nations may still attempt to prohibit any access to the internet.
We're in that first group, which is where I want us to stay. Consider that the UN is about compromising. I believe that sometimes that idea gets taken to include standards of ethics and freedom. I don't ever want North Korea or China to have any say whatsoever in what kind of content may be permitted on the internet.
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| | | 17 | Razor
ID: 471021123 Sat, Nov 19, 2005, 03:06
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Apparently Germany has dabbled in some Internet censorship once upon a time. I was surprised by this and have no idea to what extent they censored the Internet after this, but I had to look this up after getting the question wrong in Trivial Pursuit (Which country blocked...?).
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| | | 18 | sarge33rd
ID: 670916 Sat, Nov 19, 2005, 07:09
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Consider that Germans pay a tax to access local broadcast TV - I'm told its enforced.
They do, or at lkeast did in the 70's and 80's. Cant speak for the "now". Varius electronic equipped vans could be sen with directional radar dish looking gear mounted atop the vans. These vans were searching to see which households were getting TV and then verifying that the luxury tax had been paid.
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| | | 19 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Sat, Nov 19, 2005, 10:19
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The English also pay a tax for local TV--all the BBC chanels are all taxpayer funded.
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| | | 20 | Madman
ID: 114321413 Sat, Nov 19, 2005, 13:11
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I was surprised by this In a country where you can get arrested for questioning evidence of the holocaust, arrested for joining politically-incorrect political parties, or a host of other activities, I don't see why that is particularly surprising.
My only question is about the Trivial Pursuit question. How was it phrased so that you could choose a single country that had tried to censor the internet?
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| | | 21 | Razor
ID: 471021123 Sat, Nov 19, 2005, 13:37
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They asked specifically about the Compuserve Newsgroups.
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| | | 22 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 08:02
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OT:
US senators propose 'XXX' domain for porn websites
This seems like one of those innnocuous sounding bits of reasonable legislation that the law of unintended cosequences turns into a fiasco ending only in the government mucking things up. Leave people alone.
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| | | 23 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 06:54
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Yup, and as soon as they herd the porn to a specific place, they'll start taxing it.
In the article, they say that, the way things are not, kids have the same easy access to porn as they do the space shuttle.
That's the whole point of the Internet. If there wasn't so much of a rush to keep kids away, they'd look at it, learn from it and move on.
Don
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| | | 24 | Boxman
ID: 3622186 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 07:04
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Don: "In the article, they say that, the way things are not, kids have the same easy access to porn as they do the space shuttle.
That's the whole point of the Internet."
So the whole point of the internet is for kids (minors) to get pornography?
What is the secondary goal then in your eyes? To have children meet overaged men at airports.
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| | | 25 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 09:45
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strawman.
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| | | 26 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 13:28
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Box:
No, the whole point of the Internet is to have easy access to anything. How you use it - or how your parents regulate your use if you're a minor - is up to you and ought not to involved the government at all.
Don
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| | | 27 | Boxman
ID: 3622186 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 18:57
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Don, Sarge: My posting history indicates that the government and government regulation make me vomit my dinner regardless of who is in the White House or who has power of the Senate or House.
In what way does having an "XXX" domain constitute excessiveness on the part of our government.
You see, I want to be on your side on this one Don. Our government is about as competent as a band of one legged marauders in a butt kicking contest. I just don't see though how demanding all porn sites have an "XXX" domain if it makes it that much easier for parents or software companies to filter out so that kids don't see it.
In my eyes. porn sites are for adults only, not the kids. If all porn sites were designated an XXX domain, wouldn't make it that much easier for parents to filter out the porn so that their kids couldn't see it.
If you personally want to download porn, provided it's not pedophilia, I really don't care. Knock yourself out. An XXX domain wouldn't stop you from that.
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| | | 28 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 19:00
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Nor am I disagreeing with your posture. I am however, stating that the counter you put forth in 24, is the very definition of a strawman argument.
link
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| | | 29 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 251116277 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 19:18
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In what way does having an "XXX" domain constitute excessiveness on the part of our government.
Odd question from somone who is so fond of slippery slope arguments. Inviting government regulation into a medium that never had any before is only the first issue.
The next and more glaring is the question of how an American law is going to get porn sites based in every other nation to go along with the .xxx suffix. Or do we only care about helping parents keep their kids away from American porn?
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| | | 30 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 192541817 Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 23:20
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Controversial plans to create an Internet red-light district would be revived under a new U.S. Senate proposal.
"By corralling pornography in its own domain, our bill provides parents with the ability to create a 'do not enter zone' for their kids," Pryor said in a statement. He is also a sponsor of a legislative proposal to levy a 25 percent tax on Internet pornographers.
The bill suggests, but does not require, that .xxx serve as the domain name ending. Any commercial Internet site or online service that "has as its principal or primary business the making available of material that is harmful to minors" would be required to move its site to that domain. Failure to comply with those requirements would result in civil penalties as determined by the Commerce Department.
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The new legislative proposal has met with opposition from the Family Research Council, a conservative Christian advocacy group that has charged that .xxx domains would grant yet another opportunity to flood society with pornography. The Free Speech Coalition, which represents the adult entertainment industry, also voiced disapproval, saying the relocation project was unnecessary and would lead to the "ghettoization of protected speech."
Last summer, ICANN approved the concept, marking a complete turnaround from its objections in 2000. But a firestorm of protests followed, including pleas by the Bush administration to put any action on hold. ICANN twice delayed its decision and ultimately decided last December to postpone a vote indefinitely, saying it needed more time to review the details.
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| | | 31 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 00:33
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Define for me, precisely, quantifiably and comprehensively, exactly what constitutes..."...material that is harmful to minors."
Some would say, that stories of Santa Claus are harmful. They are afterall, untrue.
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| | | 32 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 07:09
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Box: MITH's post 29 pretty well describes what will happen. Government's ONLY institutional interest lies in extending the scope of its own power.
Let the world community of users encounter, then accept or reject whatever's out there. Only government, in all its nasty variations, attempts to classify information in terms of moral worthiness.
Don
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| | | 33 | Boxman
ID: 58235196 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 07:46
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From Wilmer's post, "He is also a sponsor of a legislative proposal to levy a 25 percent tax on Internet pornographers."
""has as its principal or primary business the making available of material that is harmful to minors""
Sarge: "Define for me, precisely, quantifiably and comprehensively, exactly what constitutes..."...material that is harmful to minors.""
Ahhhhh.
You're right MITHman. I do like the slippery slope stance because our government shows about as much restraint as a drunk fratboy in a brothel.
From reading Wilmer's information I glean from this that this isn't so much an effort to keep porn from children (which I would be for) so much as it is to corral porn sits into one area for taxation purposes.
Then from reading the link I noticed that it was introduced by two Democrats. God help us. The Democrats want to tax everything that moves and the new breed of big government spending so called Republicans will try and sell this as protecting our children under the banner of probably "family values" or "morality" as if they are somehow the resident experts.
I would much rather Mr. Norton or Mr. Gates innovate a better web/email filter for parents to install on their own PCs if this is the alternative.
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| | | 34 | Boldwin
ID: 49626249 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 08:49
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When a politician says the words 'for the children' deploy maximum strength BS filter.
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| | | 35 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 09:05
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Its two seperate bills, Boxman. One to tax the porn sites and one to apply the .xxx suffix.
Clearly you are strongly against the idea of taxing internet porn purveyors - especially when it's a Dem proposing the tax, I'm sure.
But now that you know that it was two Dems behind the .xxx bill that you have been defending, have you changed your mind about that one, too?
Just trying to get a grasp of exactly where it is that your priorities lie.
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| | | 36 | Boxman
ID: 58235196 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 09:57
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MITH: Please find one post of mine that I have been in favor of higher taxes regardless of who brings up the idea.
You don't see those two seperate bills working in concert?
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| | | 37 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 10:16
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?
Its two seperate bills. I know how you feel about one of them, I'm asking you to judge the other one. What if one passes and the other doesn't?
I'll just assume that your avoiding the question provides the answer I was looking for.
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| | | 38 | Boxman
ID: 58235196 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 10:51
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MITH: I answered that a couple posts ago, "From reading Wilmer's information I glean from this that this isn't so much an effort to keep porn from children (which I would be for) so much as it is to corral porn sits into one area for taxation purposes."
I would find it interesting if one passes and the other doesn't because I view them as a one/two punch in an effort to contain porn sites to make it easier on taxation and tax collecting.
Why do you think Pryor is in favor of both bills?
It looks like simple political strategy. Get the one bill (XXX domain) thru because that shouldn't meet too much resistance considering it's Democrat sponsorship and then the Republicans beat the family values drum. Then they can play the Republican game of family values before the mid-terms by saying they passed this bill.
Then the other bill, most likely written for what looks an impending takeover of the Senate and perhaps the House after the mid-terms. Bush would then have to veto the tax hike and I don't recall him giving a veto to anything yet.
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| | | 40 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 11:24
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Why do you think Pryor is in favor of both bills?
Beyond this story I don't know anything about Pryor - or the history of the proposals. I didn't like the idea of a .xxx suffix before I knew the party affiliation of the bill sponsors or anything about a related bill to tax porn purveyors. That hasn't changed and I'll note that I see the same slippery slope/ineffectiveless issues in the tax bill that I do with the .xxx bill.
That said, you are still avoiding my question by either clouding the issue or failing to understand that these are two seperate bills and are therefore intended to pass or fail independantly of each other. If the .xxx bill was just an attempt to tax web sites then it would have made much more sense for him to simply include a tax clause in the one proposal. I haven't seen the bill but these stories don't mention any such clause in it.
Clearly, Pryor likes both ideas. Enough so that they were written as two seperate proposals to be voted on for their own merits.
Its strange to me, Boxman. Obviously you'd oppose any proposed internet tax and just yesterday you were also defending this .xxx idea. But now that you've found out that the guy who proposed the .xxx idea also proposed a seperate tax, you'll have none of it - even though you think .xxx is a good idea?
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| | | 41 | Boxman
ID: 58235196 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 16:00
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"If the .xxx bill was just an attempt to tax web sites then it would have made much more sense for him to simply include a tax clause in the one proposal."
Bush probably would never sign a tax hike. I really don't know how often I have to repeat myself to you but please refer to #38 for my divide and conquer theory on these two bills. "Obviously you'd oppose any proposed internet tax"
Yes absolutely.
"If the .xxx bill was just an attempt to tax web sites then it would have made much more sense for him to simply include a tax clause in the one proposal."
I outlined my opinion on this in #38.
"just yesterday you were also defending this .xxx idea."
Yes and now that I'm more learned on the topic and seeing Pryor's political pincer move, I don't appreciate it. Some people just don't know everything about every topic the first time around like you do.
When you see that bill coupled with a seperate bill to tax the internet then the wolf just took off the sheeps clothing and can be seen. In all honesty, how hard would it be to tax porn websites as things stand right now? I would imagine pretty difficult and even more so compared to how things could be under the XXX domain proposal. Now make them all (at the least the US run sites) have a XXX domain and things just got a whole lot easier.
Since I don't trust the true intentions of Pryor and the Democratic Party, I am against both of these bills and would favor better private sector innovation for email/web filtering for parents to buy.
Then add as Sarge pointed out in #31 about what really constitutes "material that is harmful to minors" and now the slippery slope is exposed. No thanks Big Government, no thank you MYTH. Leave the internet to the people and let the software companies innovate ways to filter out the unwanted for parents.
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| | | 42 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 17:46
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I don't trust the true intentions of Pryor and the Democratic Party
That's all that I've been tring to get you to say all along. Not that I have the slighest confindence in your grasp of either. For example wouldn't it make far more sense to wait until next year to introduce the tax legislation after the .xxx law is already in place?
...no thank you MYTH.
You have your own silly little adage that you resort to when people are mocking you (I notice you use it a lot). I assume distorting your moniker falls under that heading. But really I have no idea what you could possibly be mock-thanking me for. It was you who changed your mind and came over to my side of this issue. I've been saying it sounds like crap since I first heard about it.
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| | | 43 | Boxman
ID: 25218205 Mon, Mar 20, 2006, 06:26
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After answering someone's question before they even ask it and then again for their comfort after they've answered it, and then said person goes on the attack, I do indeed cry UNCLE!.
And then now you ask me this...
"For example wouldn't it make far more sense to wait until next year to introduce the tax legislation after the .xxx law is already in place?"
Please read the postings in a thread before going on the attack so you're more informed on a discussion. I have already answered that, most likely more than once especially if the conversation involved you.
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| | | 44 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sat, Apr 22, 2006, 10:54
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Finally! An internet restriction that Boxman can support - one proposed by Republicans.
Web site operators posting sexually explicit information must place official government warning labels on their pages or risk being imprisoned for up to five yearsA mandatory rating system will "prevent people from inadvertently stumbling across pornographic images on the Internet," Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said at an event in Alexandria, Va.
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A second new crime would threaten with imprisonment Web site operators who mislead visitors about sex with deceptive "words or digital images" in their source code--for instance, a site that might pop up in searches for Barbie dolls or Teletubbies but actually features sexually explicit photographs. A third new crime appears to require that commercial Web sites not post sexually explicit material on their home page if it can be seen "absent any further actions by the viewer."
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| | | 45 | Stuck in the 60s Dude
ID: 274132811 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 08:56
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Good grief!
Have the legislators nothing better to do with their time?
Kinda makes you wish they'd grab a mistress and stay out of roll-call votes.
Don
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| | | 46 | Madman
ID: 114321413 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 10:16
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MITH 44 -- Oh how quickly we have put Clinton out of our minds, eh?
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| | | 47 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 10:24
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Madman
The difference is the first issue noted in post 29.
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| | | 48 | Boxman
ID: 38319214 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 14:23
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Mith: "Finally! An internet restriction that Boxman can support - one proposed by Republicans."
What happens when we assume, Starshine? :)
We as a society would be much better served to innovate our way out of issues than to count on Big Government to fail us once again. Mr Norton and Mr. Gates are fully capable of developing software to filter this out if parents don't want their children to see something.
Then also, much like the "XXX" bill, this is a political flanking manuever to tax websites or internet usage. Just like booze or smokes, this will be the government "seal" you break when you visit the site.
I'll have none of that idea. The private sector is fully capable of handling this and I am certain a market has or will develop for better software to filter explicit material out.
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| | | 49 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 17:23
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Well I largely agree. I am curious about what happened between post 27 (where you argued for government restrictions on porn sites) and now but I guess that isn't important.
I do disagree that this is necessarily an attempted "flanking manuever to tax websites or internet usage". I don't know of any reason for why the AG or the WH would care to institute a tax. Now censorship, on the other hand, is something I think they are very capable of. And of course legislation like this does open the door for such taxes down the road, whether the current proponents have that in mind or not.
I'm curious about your idea for how anti-porn software could work. I can't imagine software that could consistantly and accurately recognize pornographic still and moving images.
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| | | 50 | Boxman
ID: 38319214 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 18:03
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"Well I largely agree. I am curious about what happened between post 27 (where you argued for government restrictions on porn sites) and now but I guess that isn't important."
What happened is largely documented in this thread.
"I don't know of any reason for why the AG or the WH would care to institute a tax."
"And of course legislation like this does open the door for such taxes down the road, whether the current proponents have that in mind or not."
You see. That's why you should be against this. The Republican spin is for "family values", the leftists will cry "for the children" and then some kook will get the idea to use this as a vehicle for taxation. I can see it now, some government flim-flam man will cut the gas tax yet create an internet tax and he'll sell it to the people as some glorious way of saving them money. Presuming a leftist swing in November, I would believe that a tax on the internet would be more probable then than previously.
"I'm curious about your idea for how anti-porn software could work. I can't imagine software that could consistantly and accurately recognize pornographic still and moving images."
I could not imagine how to put a man on the moon on the micro-technical level, but mankind did it. Many of the clients I work for use some form of web filtering so the worker bees cannot be playing online poker or downloading porn using company resources. I cannot imagine a similar offering for home use is that far off.
Government is never the answer. The American people and technological innovation are the answer. I have infinitely more faith and confidence in some engineer or programmer at Microsoft or a guy working out of his house than I do the government.
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| | | 51 | Perm Dude Dude
ID: 030792616 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 18:06
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I don't think there are any people who will be sold on an internet tax.
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| | | 52 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 18:26
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You see. That's why you should be against this.
... ?
use some form of web filtering so the worker bees cannot be playing online poker or downloading porn using company resources. I cannot imagine a similar offering for home use is that far off.
I'm pretty sure the stuff you get with AOL or MSN is the same technology. Thats usually just a matter of blocking specific sites and preventing downloads of specific kinds of files. I don't know of any more sophisticated "porn filters" on the horizon (not that I've done any research, of course) but was curious if you did.
Government is never the answer.
If you say so. I'm still not sure whether that's a principle that you have adopted in the past 30 days or if its that you don't really mean "never" when you say it.
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| | | 53 | sarge33rd
ID: 2511422414 Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 20:12
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Never, unless its to ban something one doesnt want to otherwise remain legal. Then its perfectly OK for the govt to intervene.
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| | | 54 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 428299 Tue, Apr 25, 2006, 16:43
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Here's an on-topic issue that almost certainly needs some government assistance.
Savetheinternet.com FAQ
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| | | 55 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 17:53
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From the FAQ link in post 54:What's happening in Congress?
The telephone and cable companies are filling up congressional campaign coffers and hiring high-priced lobbyists. They've set up "Astroturf" groups like "Hands Off the Internet" to confuse the issue and give the appearance of grassroots support.
Congress is now considering a major overhaul of the Telecommunications Act. The primary bill in the House is called the "Communications Opportunity, Promotion and Enhancement Act of 2006" and is sponsored by Commerce Committee Chairman Joe Barton (R-Texas), Rep. Fred Upton (R-Mich.), Rep. Charles Pickering (R-Miss.) and Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.).
The current version of the COPE Act includes watered-down net neutrality provisions that are essentially meaningless. An amendment offered in a key subcommittee by Rep. Ed Markey (D-Mass.), which would have instituted real net neutrality requirements, was defeated after intense industry lobbying against it.
But it's not too late yet. A full committee vote on the measure — and another opportunity to save the Internet — could happen as soon as April 26. Today:
Democrats lose House vote on Net neutrality A hotly contested Democratic bid to enshrine extensive Net neutrality regulations in the law books failed Wednesday in the U.S. House of Representatives.
By a 34-to-22 vote, members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee rejected a Democratic-backed Net neutrality amendment that also enjoyed support from Internet and software companies including Microsoft, Amazon.com and Google.
..................................................................
Rep. Joe Barton, a Texas Republican and committee chairman, pressured his fellow GOP members to vote against Markey's amendment--even going so far as to remind them that he opposed it and to call in wayward colleagues who had strayed out into the hallway.
Net neutrality is "still not clearly defined," Barton said. "It's kind of like pornography: You know it when you see it."
Barton argued that Net neutrality proponents were overstating their case and exaggerating the dangers of a more laissez-faire approach. "I don't think all the Draconian things they (predict) will happen if we don't adopt their amendment," he said.
Because the committee has a GOP majority, Markey's amendment never had a chance of passing unless some Republicans could be convinced to defect from the party line. Activist groups had tried to ratchet up the pressure, with a letter-writing campaign to politicians, and announcing early Wednesday that Intel had joined the Net neutrality coalition.
It didn't work. By the time of the vote, around 1:30 p.m. PST, only a handful of Republicans supported the amendment and a few Democrats opposed it. Democrats could try again to amend the bill on the House floor, but that tactic only works if the Republican leadership agrees to permit it, which seems unlikely at this point.
The amendment was backed by three other Democrats--Anne Eshoo of California, Jay Inslee of Washington, and Rick Boucher of Virginia. It was also rejected in a subcommittee vote, but supporters took heart that Wednesday's vote was closer than the subcommittee's vote of 8 to 23.
The final version of the telecommunications bill does include some Net neutrality regulations, including charging the FCC with investigating any "violation" of fair treatment principles. In a case last year dealing with Vonage, the FCC already took action against a broadband provider accused of interfering with Internet phone calls.
But it does not do what Amazon, Google, Barry Diller's IAC/InterActiveCorp, Yahoo and their allies want: to forcibly prevent by law a two-tier business model from ever being adopted on the Internet.
In a letter to the Senate Commerce Committee on Wednesday, the chief executives of those companies and their allies said: "We call upon you to enact legislation preventing discrimination against the content and services of those not affiliated with network operators and thereby preserve network neutrality."
It's unclear what will happen in the Senate. A key senator, Alaska Republican Ted Stevens, said last month that a bill to rewrite telecommunications laws may not grant the FCC power to enforce Net neutrality concepts. During a hearing in February, senators seemed divided over the need for new laws.
But a pair of U.S. senators is circulating a draft bill that adopts stiff Net neutrality regulations. It's backed by Olympia Snowe, a Maine Republican, and Byron Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat, and takes largely the same approach as the Markey amendment.
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| | | 56 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 18:00
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Daily Kos points to Mark Stoller:There's a white hot firestorm on the issue on Capitol Hill. No one wants to see the telcos make a radical change to the internet and screw this medium up, except, well, the telcos [which of course is why we've not heard about any of this on TV news -mith]. And now members of Congress are listening to us. The telcos have spent hundreds of millions of dollars and many years lobbying for their position; we launched four days ago, and have closed a lot of ground. Over the next few months, as the public wakes up, we'll close the rest of it.
I watched the markup and the voting, and there was noticeable defensiveness among Congressmen on the wrong side of this. They are wrong, they know it, and they are ashamed. Now they know people are watching. So we didn't win this vote, but this close margin was nonetheless a smack to the jaw of the insiders, and a clear victory for the people. Now the battle moves out of the Energy and Commerce Committee, and onto more favorable terrain.
As Sean-Paul said to me over email, "today was a victory as a few key players on the full committee changed their votes. Important action is required heading into the Senate but we have created significant momentum and the telco cartel is very afraid of us now.
This is not how they wanted it to go down. They wanted this amendment to fail quietly, so the Senate would not take it up. We changed the rules today. Great work." I don't think I'm nearly as optimistic.
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| | | 57 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Wed, Apr 26, 2006, 21:09
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House Energy and Commerce Committee Markey Amendment Vote April 26, 2006
Freedom Fighters: Y -- Tom Allen (D-Maine) Y -- Tammy Baldwin (D-Wis) Y -- Rick Boucher (D-Va) Y -- Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio) Y -- Lois Capps (D-Calif) Y -- Jim Davis (D-Fla) Y -- Diana DeGette (D-Colo) Y -- John D. Dingell (D-Mich) Y -- Mike Doyle (D-Pa) Y -- Eliot L. Engel (D-NY) Y -- Anna Eshoo (D-Calif) Y -- Bart Gordon (D-Tenn) Y -- Jay Inslee (D-Wash) Y -- Edward J. Markey (D-Mass) Y -- Frank Pallone, Jr (D-NJ) Y -- Mike Ross (D-Ark) Y -- Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill) Y -- Hilda L. Solis (D-Calif) Y -- Ted Strickland (D-Ohio) Y -- Bart Stupak (D-Mich) Y -- Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif) Y -- Heather Wilson (R-NM)
Anti-Internet / Pro-Cartel: N -- Joe Barton (R-Texas) N -- Charles Bass (R-NH) N -- Michael Bilirakis (R-Fla) N -- Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn) N -- Roy Blunt (R-Mo) N -- Mary Bono (R-Calif) N -- Michael Burgess (R-Texas) N -- Steve Buyer (R-Ind) N -- Barbara Cubin (R-Wyo) N -- Nathan Deal (R-Ga) N -- Mike Ferguson (R-NJ) N -- Paul E. Gillmor (R-Ohio) N -- Ralph M. Hall (R-Texas) N -- Tim Murphy (R-Pa) N -- Sue Myrick (R-NC) N -- Charles W. Norwood (R-Ga) N -- C. L. "Butch" Otter (R-Idaho) N -- Charles W. "Chip" Pickering Jr. (R-Miss) N -- Joe Pitts (R-Pa) N -- George Radanovich (R-Calif) N -- Mike Rogers (R-Mich) N -- John Shadegg (R-Ariz) N -- John M. Shimkus (R-Ill) N -- Cliff Stearns (R-Fla) N -- John Sullivan (R-Okla) N -- Lee Terry (R-Neb) N -- Fred Upton (R-Mich) N -- Greg Walden (R-Ore) N -- Ed Whitfield (R-Ky) N -- Gene Green (D-Texas) N -- Bobby L. Rush (D-Ill) N -- Edolphus Towns (D-NY) N -- Charlie A. Gonzalez (D-Texas) N -- Albert R. Wynn (D-Md)
Absent UD -- Vito Fossella (R-NY)
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| | | 58 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 02, 2006, 12:40
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NY Times Editorial that sums up the Net Neutrality issue nicely.
Alternet Rep. Ed Markey (D-MA) threw down the gauntlet just moments ago, introducing the Network Neutrality Act of 2006 [full text HERE], which "[offers a] choice between favoring the broadband designs of a small handful of very large companies, and safeguarding the dreams of thousands of inventors, entrepreneurs, and small businesses. This legislation is designed to save the Internet and thwart those who seek to fundamentally and detrimentally alter the Internet as we know it."
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| | | 59 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Thu, May 04, 2006, 09:17
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Dissenting opinions:
Huffington Post - Mike McCurry The Internet is not a free public good. It is a bunch of wires and switches and connections and pipes and it is creaky. You all worship at Vince Cerf who has a clear financial interest in the outcome of this debate but you immediately castigate all of us who disagree and impune our motives. I get paid a reasonable but small sum to argue what I believe. How many of the net neuts out there are honest about the financial resources and special interests behind your side of the argument? Do you really believe this is good v. evil or just an honest disagreement about what will make the 'net flourish and prosper? What do you make of David Farber's recent caution about the unintended consequences of regulating the Internet?
I am against giving the FCC and other government regulators the power to decide how the Internet will build out in the future. That is what you net neuts are for. The Internet has worked absent regulation and now you want to introduce it for a solution to what? What content is being denied? What service is being degraded? What is not right with the Internet that you are trying to cure?
Instead, you have some myth about dangers ahead if someone actually asks (horrors!) that we pay for the billions it will take to make the Internet to work in the decades ahead? Do you want to pay or do you want to make the giant content companies that will be streaming video and data rich services to pay? I'd rather have a robust Internet that can handle the volume of traffic that we will put on it in the near future rather than an public Internet where we all wait in line for the next porno-spammer to let his content go before we get to have arguments like this.
This is not an issue where there is a progressive, pro-little guy, pro-Dem stand versus the big bad companies that pay big bad lobbyists (what a joke you think I am one of them). This is a clear disagreement on principle about what will get us the next generation of the internet that will work for all of us.
Any one want to have a rational conversation about that or do you want to rant and rave and provide a lot of May Day rhetoric that is not based in any fact? As far as I can tell, the former WH Press Secretary's main point is that the internet has survived this long without government regulation and he would rather see the service remain in the control of the industries that provide it. I'll note that I agreed with this argument when Boxman presented it with regard to various proposed legislation to regulate internet porn (despite the hard time I gave him for abruptly changing his opinion on the matter). I think the difference is that anti-internet porn legislation seeks to regulate speech in rare medium that today remains totally free of any such... impurities. It is the glorious and uncorrupted paladin of the First Amendment. Net neutrality, on the other hand, attempts the opposite, I believe; to force free speech on an industry that might endeavor to dangle censor-free content before us for profit or compromise it in any other way it sees fit.
Net Neutrality seeks to regulate and restrict the marketplace, an issue for which I am personally less sympathetic. I would like to hear from some people more familiar with the relevant issues regarding free and restricted markets who could help with a stronger grasp of that side of the issue, especially conservatves who typically argure for unrestricted markets.
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| | | 60 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Thu, May 04, 2006, 09:26
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More from McCurry: I joined the effort opposing regulated net neutrality because, contrary to what you write, it's absolutely consistent with the Clinton Administration's policies toward the Internet.
=================================
During this time, there were repeated attempts to bring Internet regulation under the federal government's umbrella. To the Administration's credit, we consistently resisted the temptation - see Ira Magaziner's 1997 report, "A Framework for Global Electronic Commerce." Also, in 1998, the President signed a moratorium on conflicting state and local Internet taxes that helped promote the explosive growth of online commerce. These so-called "net neutrality" regulations would completely undercut this legacy.
=================================
But once you try and define what is to be regulated, unintended consequences will surely result. If broadband providers are made liable in court for the way their pipes "carry" digitized information, you're going to have Congress and FCC regulators writing rules that cover the basics of Internet traffic. Do we really think the Internet will benefit by having government officials write rules on caching, collocation, packet reassembly and the like? And when these rules are challenged in court (meaning more delays), will that help or hurt efforts to improve America's broadband deployment? Trying to guess at a regulated formula for network neutrality that would protect the public interest and not impede innovation and investment for the Internet is a high-risk proposition.
=================================
There's another aspect of net neutrality that's even more problematic: the way it mixes two separate entities, namely the public Internet and private networks. For twenty years, private networks have been helping business, government, universities, and others that need specialized communication. There's nothing wrong with groups that are willing to pay a little extra because they need a specialized service - think of UPS vs. the postal service. So if net neutrality regulations are passed, would federal regulators have to write separate rules for public vs. private networks? Would there be different federal rules for low-bandwidth IP services that use the public Internet and high-bandwidth services that don't? Entire forests will be sacrificed to produce all the legal and technical filings that would surround these and other neutrality questions. In my view, we're far better off continuing on the sound path the Clinton Administration established. Having federal regulators and Congressional staff writing Internet regulations is not the best way to promote online diversity. Letting the technology continue to evolve unfettered is. Network companies are going to spend billions developing the infrastructure necessary to bring us the Internet of the future. We will get in the way of that robust deployment if we make it harder for those companies to get a return on their investment. (If you don't trust me, listen to the Wall Street analysts who said exactly that in their congressional testimony recently - the unintended consequences of regulated net neutrality will make investors skeptical about providing the capital needed to make the net capable of what we are soon going to demand of it.) How will the "little guy" with interesting content or a good idea or the next "new, new thing" succeed if he or she finds a clogged Internet that can't get the job done? How does that help the constituencies we Democrats need to represent? How does that enhance free speech on the web? Look, I have to make a buck sure. But I am happy to be on my side of debate and not yours. --Mike McCurry CoChair, Hands Off the Internet I'll have to think about some of his points and maybe research a couple of issues before commenting further.
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| | | 61 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 15441611 Thu, May 11, 2006, 02:59
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Plan for .xxx porn domain dropped
Internet regulators have rejected plans to create a domain for pornography websites ending with the .xxx suffix. Advocates of the exclusive domain had argued that it would make it easier for web users to locate - or avoid - pornography online.
Conservative opponents of the plan said it would legitimise pornography, while opponents in the porn industry warned it could lead to more state control.
Internet regulator Icann's chief said the decision was not political.
"The heart of the decision today was not driven by a political consideration," Paul Twomey told the Associated Press news agency.
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| | | 62 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4923198 Thu, May 11, 2006, 19:12
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Just when I was beginning to consider the other side's arguments on this issue, we learn that, ultimately, who the anti-net neutrality crowd seeks to financially protect are the same telecos that hand all of our phone records over to the NSA.
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| | | 63 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 14:29
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Senator Ted Stevens, Chairman of the Commerce Committee, is a MO-Ron.
"The Internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes," he said during a June 28 committee session.
"And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled. And if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material."
In his 11-minute discourse, he said he'd seen these delays firsthand: "I just the other day got -- an Internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday and I just got it yesterday. Why? Because it got tangled up with all these things going on the Internet commercially."
--- Host Jon Stewart had an alternate explanation for why it took so long for Stevens to receive his staff's e-mail: "Maybe it's because you do not seem to know jack BLEEP about computers or the Internet ... but hey, you're just the guy in charge of regulating it."
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| | | 64 | Myboyjack
ID: 27651610 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 15:36
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This is the level of boneheadism that you generally get with government regulation. Bili, how come so many of your liberal buds can see it when it comes to the internet but yearn for more and bigger government in so many other areas? It's the same boneheads making the rules up, you know.
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| | | 65 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 15:41
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Republicans seem to have a burning desire to loot government and destroy any efficiency it provides.
At least a percentage of liberals are wonky and naive enough that they actually create useful regulation.
Just because Republicans are inept, corrupt and incompetent doesn't mean that's the defacto state of government.
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| | | 66 | katietx
ID: 56658617 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 15:43
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Maybe Al Gore needs to give the Senate a lesson in the internet? After all, he invented it.
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| | | 67 | biliruben Leader
ID: 589301110 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 15:45
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That's a knee-slapper there, Katie.
Claim: Vice-President Al Gore claimed that he "invented" the Internet.
Status: False.
Origins: Despite the derisive references that continue even today, Al Gore did not claim he "invented" the Internet, nor did he say anything that could reasonably be interpreted that way.
snopes.
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| | | 68 | sarge33rd
ID: 575352217 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 16:01
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...nor did he say anything that could reasonably be interpreted that way.
and since when did we liberals figure those conservatives did much of anything reasonably???????
;)
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| | | 69 | katietx
ID: 56658617 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 16:30
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talk about a knee-slapper. More of a head-slapper.
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| | | 70 | boikin
ID: 400291013 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 16:35
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"I took the initiative in creating the Internet." -al gore
sounds something close to i would like to take credit for something so let me use some big words to confuse people. I can see now the rumor would have started.
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| | | 71 | beastiemiked
ID: 18301915 Tue, Jul 18, 2006, 16:38
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Is this really a big surprise? Last time I checked both republicans and liberals sucked.
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| | | 72 | Matt S
ID: 33644316 Wed, Jul 19, 2006, 01:55
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Why can't all you Republican and Democrat voters get along? The politicians don't seem to have a problem.
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| | | 73 | Boldwin
ID: 46651516 Wed, Jul 19, 2006, 05:12
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Bork you. 8]
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| | | 74 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 18:45
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Here's a good story demonstrating that as long as the internet remains de-centralized and beyond the control of any one global governmental body, it will remain a free speech proliferating, ass-kicking machine.
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| | | 75 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 19:27
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I had just finished reading this story, and thought maybe it was you were linking. (Obviously not.)
Internet "mobs"
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| | | 76 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 07:42
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God Bless America
Federal judge in post #74 reverses himself admitting that he forgot about the 1st Amendment (whoopsie)
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| | | 77 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Tue, Apr 22, 2008, 21:09
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FCC chief says no need for new regulation of the Internet
I think this is good. This is MITH's issue though.
WASHINGTON (AP) - Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin said Tuesday there's no need for new regulation of the Internet, saying his agency has all the authority it needs to prevent discrimination by Internet service providers. "I do not believe any additional regulations are needed at this time," Martin said at a hearing before the Senate Commerce Committee, noting recent enforcement actions by the commission. The FCC has conducted two hearings on "network management" following admissions by Comcast Corp. that it sometimes delayed file-sharing traffic for subscribers as a way to keep Web traffic flowing.
The hearing was called at a time when the issue of "network neutrality"—the principle that people should be able to go where they choose on the Internet without interference from network owners—has heated up.
The network neutrality debate has divided Congress, with Democrats largely in favor and Republicans mostly opposed, a point that became clearer at Tuesday's committee meeting.
"It is a political division now and it's getting more so," said Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska. "It is unfortunate." He said a return to "intense regulation" of the Internet is "entirely unwarranted."
The hearing included some star power, with the appearance of Justine Bateman, best known for her role on the TV sitcom Family Ties. Bateman is now a founding partner of a new online media venture.
"The idea of your site succeeding or failing based upon whether or not you paid the telecom companies enough to carry your material or allow quick access is appalling," she told the committee.
Also speaking for a free-flowing Internet was Patric Verrone, the president of the Writers Guild of America, West, which recently ended a 100-day strike that virtually paralyzed television production. The Internet was a valuable organizing tool for the writers, he said in an interview.
"When your employers are the same companies that control the media, it's hard to get your message out," Verrone said.
To maintain contact with one another, guild members used blog postings, e-mail and videos. It was the success of that campaign that prompted Verrone to come to Washington and push for legislation that he hopes will guarantee the Internet's status as an open forum for communication.
Verrone, a television writer and producer for over 20 years, supports legislation proposed by Sens. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, and Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., that would force those who control Internet service to treat all traffic equally.
Large network owners like cable and telecommunications companies are opposed to network neutrality legislation, saying it would add a layer of regulation that will hurt consumers. They say it is unnecessary and amounts to a solution in search of a problem.
Kyle McSlarrow, president and CEO of the National Cable and Telecommunications Association, described the picture painted by pro- net neutrality commenters as "a complete fantasy."
McSlarrow said of the tens of millions of people who use the Internet every day, "no one is being blocked" and if they were, they could go to another competitor.
Verrone wants Washington to ensure that the owners of the information pipelines in the U.S. do not interfere with the free exchange of ideas.
"The only thing bigger than corporations in this country is the government," he said. "So we think we have to make clear to legislators that we need somebody making sure that that pipe is neutral."
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| | | 78 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 21:54
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Why does the right hate free, unrestricted internet?
John McCain introduces the "Internet Freedom Act" in attempt to end net neutrality, which he says is a "government takeover of the internet" which will "stifle innovation, in turn slowing our economic turnaround and further depressing an already anemic job market."
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| | | 79 | Perm Dude
ID: 249192410 Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 22:31
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We cannot trust the free internet--only when it is controlled by corporations who can sell us access can we really trust it.
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| | | 80 | astade Sustainer
ID: 214361313 Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 22:46
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I like how they cite the BBC as the wrong way to go. I go to them more than half the time for my dose of world news.
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| | | 81 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 12:20
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Reps. Edward J. Markey (D-MA) and Anna G. Eshoo (D-CA) introduced a bill today that will establish overarching national broadband policy and ensures an open and consumer oriented Internet. H.R. 3458, the Internet Freedom Preservation Act, is designed to assess and promote Internet freedom for consumers and content providers. The bill states that it is the policy of the United States to protect the right of consumers to access lawful content, run lawful applications, and use lawful services of their choice on the Internet while preserving and promoting the open and interconnected nature of broadband networks, enabling consumers to connect to such networks their choice of lawful devices, as long as such devices do not harm the network. The legislation also directs the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to promulgate several rules relating to enforcement and implementation of the legislation, including rules to ensure that providers of Internet access service fulfill the duties and disclose meaningful information to consumers about a provider’s Internet access service in clear, uniform, and conspicuous manner. H.R. 3458 makes clear that it does not prohibit an Internet access provider from engaging in reasonable network management consistent with the policies and duties of nondiscrimination and openness set forth in the bill, nor does the legislation affect any law or regulation addressing prohibited or unlawful activity, including any laws or regulations prohibiting theft of content.
Rep. Markey introduced similar Internet freedom legislation in the 110th Congress, H.R. 5353, which Rep. Eshoo also co-sponsored. In the 109th Congress, Rep. Markey offered a net neutrality amendment to the COPE Act in May 2006. Follow the progress of HR 3458 here.Hey Boldy, where'd you go on this one? Back in July you were decrying the plan to censor the internet by making most of it pay-to-view [and sure to wither and die].
Torn between your principles and and the discomforting prospect of crossing "conservative" hero Glenn Beck as he steers the hard right down the path of pay-per-view internet?
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| | | 82 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 14:31
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where'd you go on this one? Are you kidding? They just outlawed free speech. Anything they want to call hate speech is now verboten. Obama and muslim countries are pushing similar global legislation that would allow muslim global power to shut down criticism of their religion and would allow Obama further ability to close down free speech. His czar has a lifelong history of advocating censorship of internet and talk radio. If there was anyone here but you and 11 Obama lotus-eaters in a stupor, and if I wasn't 6/7 retired, there would be great big long threads active on these subjects.
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| | | 83 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 14:33
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They just outlawed free speech
Huh?
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| | | 84 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 14:39
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The hate crimes bill passed without fanfare and will be signed into law when the defense appropriation bill gets signed. Whereupon even reading the bible passages in church dealing with homosexuality will technically be a crime. Expect your church to cave.
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| | | 85 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Sat, Oct 31, 2009, 14:48
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The topic I was referring to when I asked where you went is Net Neutrality. Your subject change affirms the last sentence of #81.
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| | | 86 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820 Sun, Nov 01, 2009, 06:21
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Pay-to-view is just one more way to kill the internet's freedom obviously. Of course I don't support it no matter who is for it.
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| | | 87 | mith
ID: 521025110 Sun, Nov 01, 2009, 11:25
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You'll just oppose it much more quietly.
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| | | 90 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Thu, May 20, 2010, 16:35
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Soros funded 'Free Press' group proposes tax funded, government run media to replace current media.
This is a lie. Show us where in "The Plan" it is suggested that the current media be replaced.
The WND article is really just an ad for a book by one of their reporters. Comically, WND(like Baldwin) conjures George Soros in a most disingenous manner, suggesting he is the money behind Free Press. Until you read the article.
Free Press has also recived funds from Soros' Open Society Institute.
According to Free Press 2008 annual report, so are:
Steve and Paula Child Foundation Democracy Alliance Dudley Foundation Ford Foundation Frances Fund Glaser Progress Foundation Haas Charitable Trust Media Democracy Fund Morgan Family Foundation Nathan Cummings Foundation Overbrook Foundation Park Foundation Philanthropic Collaborative Quixote Foundation Revson Foundation Rockefeller Brothers Fund Sandler Supporting Family Foundation Streisand Foundation Surdna Foundation Town Creek Foundation Wallace Global Fund William B. Wiener Woodcock Foundation link
I guess a headline like "Streisand funded Free Press group proposes tax funded, government run media to replace current media" doesn't have quite the same ring.
So, I read "The Plan," and mostly disagree with spending huge sums to expand NPR and other public media. I also disagree with WND spreading propaganda so their useful idiots can bring it to this board as if it were relevant to discussing the issue of a free and open internet.
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| | | 91 | biliruben
ID: 358252515 Thu, May 20, 2010, 16:45
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Thanks PV. Assumed it was something like that, but don't have the time or energy do the research to dubunk what seems to be baldwins endless stream of increasingly sloppy falsehoods and misrepresentations.
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| | | 92 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 07:08
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Soros is running the clearinghouse for the liberal foundation funding machine, he's not just one among many.
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| | | 93 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 08:34
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If you actually had the energy to look into the specifics as I had you'd know who is making it rain at Free Press.Chief Operating Officer Kimberly Longey oversees organizational development, strategic planning, staffing and financial management activities. She is also a key member of our fundraising team. Kimberly has 23 years' experience building, growing and reinventing nonprofit organizations. Prior to joining Free Press, Kimberly served as deputy director of the Proteus Fund Proteus Fund: Take a real hard look at just how inextricably linked, Soros is to the Proteus fund.
And the fact that many liberal foundations have joined to support 'Free Press'? It's called collaborative grantmaking and it's the ball Soros get's rolling and thus controls.
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| | | 94 | Mith
ID: 482583111 Fri, May 21, 2010, 08:42
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You need a chalkboard.
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| | | 95 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:04
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Thank you.
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| | | 96 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:11
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Now about 'The Lie' as liberals around here throw around as freely as race cards and frisbees.
The 'Free Press' recommends a BBC size publicly funded media funded to the tune of @ $450 yearly per household, judging by the system they like the best.
Wait till Cass Sunstein gets done regulating the fear of community radical groups and liberal run FCC into comercial media until they are toothless, combined with socialist public media on public funding steroids.
Because it's worked so well in Europe. */Sarc*
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| | | 97 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:12
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Soros is running the clearinghouse for the liberal foundation funding machine, he's not just one among many.
This statement only serves to further erode your credibility. It exemplifies laziness and dishonesty.
There are 23 foundations listed above which donated to Free Press according to their 2008 annual report. Each of these foundations has a board of directors and most release an annual report. Information is available online.
Armed with such a wealth of information, a claim that Soros is running the clearinghouse for the liberal foundation funding machine would be easy to document. So, I set to work trying to find the information to tie Soros to the 23 organizations listed above.
The only real connection which is somewhat indirectly related appears to be the
Democracy Alliance, whose treasurer is Drummond Pike, CEO of the Tides Foundation.
According to discoverthenetworks.org
the Open Society Institute of George Soros, has donated more than $7 million to Tides over the years.
Wow, 7 million....over the years! If you're looking for a clearinghouse for the liberal foundation funding machine, the Tides Foundation would be a more accurate target. Just as Streisand funded doesn't sound nefarious, neither does the Tides Foundation funded have the same ring as SOROS!!!
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| | | 98 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:16
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Now about 'The Lie' as liberals around here throw around as freely as race cards and frisbees.
Your characterization of anyone who challenges your BS as a liberal further erodes your credibility.
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| | | 99 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:17
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The Tides Foundation IS Soros.
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| | | 100 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:24
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If so, it isn't because he's given most of their money or sits on any of their boards.
Heinz Endowments (remember that firestorm, in 2006?) has given more than Soros to Tides, but somehow they aren't given the love here by Boldwin...
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| | | 102 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:43
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There's no reason to obssess over Teresa Heinz Kerry since her husband lost the 2004 presidential election. Painting Soros as the puppet master behind every liberal undertaking in the world is an ongoing obsession, which is why WND and Baldwin prominently display his name whther it's relevant or not. It's textbook propaganda.
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| | | 103 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 09:55
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Look, Soros doesn't just show up in NY or Washington, present his $5 billion and proclaim he now owns the Dem party and the WH.
He funds a number of foundations, some of which notoriously shield their funders from identification.
He mainly starts the funneling thru groups like MoveOn.org, Center for American Progress (CAP), America Votes, America Coming Together (ACT), The Media Fund, etc. These make controlling sized grants to foundations like The Tides Foundation, The Ford Foundation, NARAL, Free Press, the whole panopoly of liberal foundations.George Soros is an exacting taskmaster. In return for his money, he demands productivity. What he requires of employees and business associates in the investment world, Soros also demands from the political operatives he funds. “Mr. Soros isn't just writing checks and watching,” notes Wall Street Journal reporter Jeanne Cummings. “He is also imposing a business model on the notoriously unruly world of politics. He demands objective evidence of progress, and assigned an aide to monitor the groups he supports. He studies private polls to track the impact of an anti-Bush advertising campaign, and he is delivering his money in installments, giving him leverage if performance falters.”
The Shadow Party is a top-down creation. George Soros founded it, organized it and runs it to this day, through a tightly-integrated, corporate-style command structure. Soros fulfills a role in the Shadow Party comparable to that of chairman of the board, while former Clinton deputy chief of staff Harold Ickes serves as de facto CEO.
It took years of patient sleuthing to penetrate the Shadow Party’s secrets — a research effort led by conservative activist David Horowitz, who heads the Center for the Study of Popular Culture (CSPC) in Los Angeles. Much of this research can now be found at DiscovertheNetwork.org — a searchable, online database of the organized left which Horowitz launched in February 2005.
DiscovertheNetwork.org illuminates the intricate personal and financial relationships binding leftwing organizations together. While compiling this database, Horowitz and his team uncovered the hidden command structure that drives Soros’ Shadow Party.
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| | | 104 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:00
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Proteus Fund: Take a real hard look at just how inextricably linked, Soros is to the Proteus fund.
Inextricably linked? OSI provided funding to Proteus as did scores of other liberal foundations. How is it more inextricably linked than the Ford Foundation or the Carnegie Corporation? That link proves nothing to support your claims.
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| | | 105 | biliruben
ID: 16105237 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:00
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Linkless in guruland.
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| | | 108 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:11
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That's simply not proof.
According to your own source of DiscovertheNetwork.org, in 2006 only (apparently the last year your linked source was really active), Tides Foundation received about $100,000,000 in grants from various sources.
Soros has given $7 million over the course of years.
Look at that objectively. even if Soros gave all his money at once (he didn't--it was spread out over years), he would be about 7% of their funding for that year.
Major?
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| | | 109 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:16
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OMG, the site PV stumbles upon and tried to use to prove his point in the first place, a site that is practically on my quicklink bar I use it so much, comes right out and explicitly says Soros is running the whole liberal collaborative grantmaking machine, and PD and PV wave their arms and claim there is nothing to the claim.
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| | | 111 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:21
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The site you brought up in the first place as the authority on this, calls this interwoven funding THE SHADOW PARTY and says flat out that Soros runs it.
Let it sink in.
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| | | 112 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:27
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Yes, indeed, they do call it that. And you call Obama a Marxist.
You were given a specific task, and now you want to back out of it by claiming a separate, larger conspiracy of some sort. FAIL.
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| | | 113 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:39
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Claiming Soros is the Tides Foundation is just silly, and barely worth even commenting, except to show the obsession Baldwin has with Soros.
Wild speculations presented as facts are the norm when it comes to the issue. David Horowitz's years of patient sleuthing also includes wild speculation along with some pertinent information, but the entire playing field has now been changed.
It's gone from Soros funded 'Free Press' group proposes tax funded, government run media to replace current media to He studies private polls to track the impact of an anti-Bush advertising campaign, which is about as irrelevant as it gets.
Here's the truth.
OSI is one of many organizations that fund Free Press. There's been no evidence presented that George Soros has any connection to Free Press in a management or advisory capacity, and dredging up Horowitz's Soros obsession is simply done to cloud the issue.
Using Soros' name in this capacity is simply propaganda and distracts from any sensible debate about the pros and cons of the Free Press "plan," which doesn't call for replacing the current media, although I would agree that there are factions that would like to see that happen, in the mold of a BBC or CBC.
It's a good topic for debate. It's unfortunate we have to sift through the Soros funded propaganda in order to intelligently discuss it.
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| | | 114 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:40
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Riiiight. You want me to goose chase my way thru the foundation donor's lists of every major liberal leading light foundation and tho I will find Soros fingers in every one of them, you will then say 'that's not a large enuff donation to gain control'.
Well your own site weighted the evidence already and rendered their verdict.The Shadow Party is a top-down creation. George Soros founded it, organized it and runs it to this day...DiscovertheNetwork.org illuminates the intricate personal and financial relationships binding leftwing organizations together. While compiling this database, Horowitz and his team uncovered the hidden command structure that drives Soros’ Shadow Party. Now you can claim moderator's privilege and declare FAIL, Tree can link an obscene cartoon or picture, PV can claim he's not a liberal once again as he runs cover for Obama's bagman, bili can compose a poem for the occasion, but you both have just been served a massive slam dunk. End of story.
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| | | 115 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:42
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comes right out and explicitly says Soros is running the whole liberal collaborative grantmaking machine, and PD and PV wave their arms and claim there is nothing to the claim.
You mean explicitly speculates. There's a difference anyone with an ounce of objectivity would realize.
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| | | 116 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:47
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Horowitz drew you an objective map of the objective evidence but maps don't help the blind.
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| | | 117 | Boldwin
ID: 19438215 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:58
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And the next time you blithely call someone a liar, pray you can't be proven so completely and utterly wrong.
And that the person in charge of holding your feet to the fire over character assassination agrees with you.
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| | | 118 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, May 21, 2010, 10:59
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#116 - Is this your new comedy act, claiming Horowitz is objective?
but you both have just been served a massive slam dunk. End of story.
Your delusions are exceeded only by your lack of humility.
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| | | 119 | Khahan
ID: 373143013 Fri, May 21, 2010, 16:54
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Lets give boldwin the benefit of the doubt and assume Soros really is this liberal mastermind pulling all the strings. so what?
You don't think the republicans don't have one of their own?
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| | | 120 | Boldwin
ID: 224592123 Sat, May 22, 2010, 00:59
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The yin to your yang.
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| | | 121 | Boldwin
ID: 224592123 Sat, May 22, 2010, 01:04
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And if it turns out that Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh sneak out the back door of the Koch brothers' reunion with Richard Mellon Scaife with their marching orders tucked under their arms, I'll slap you on the back and let out a hearty 'whatayaknow'!
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| | | 122 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, May 22, 2010, 01:09
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Still waiting for the answer to the Soros math question...
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| | | 123 | Boldwin
ID: 224592123 Sat, May 22, 2010, 01:18
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How much water does it take to prime the pump? Just ask Soros cause he has it mastered.
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| | | 124 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, May 22, 2010, 01:37
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I only respond to you in order to watch you run away from what you post.
Major contributor, indeed. And $7 million proves it!
I like to remind myself that you are the face of the current GOP. And that gets me feeling pretty good inside.
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| | | 125 | Boldwin
ID: 224592123 Sat, May 22, 2010, 01:47
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I try not to dwell on the fact that self-assuming would-be elitists like you think they should run my life and have the media on their side.
BTW, Have you found an natural gas trucks yet, on your way to regulating energy in PA?
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| | | 126 | Boldwin
ID: 24528715 Tue, Jun 08, 2010, 08:46
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A Lawyer's perspective on why the internet will inevitably be brought under control. Taming of the West, metaphor explaining the future of the internet. - The Volokh Conspiracy
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| | | 127 | WTC Building 7
ID: 51538158 Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 09:58
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link
New Bill Gives Obama ‘Kill Switch’ To Shut Down The Internet.
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| | | 128 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 01:02
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it's funny to me how much of a crock of $hit this thread has become - this is an important issue, and it's become a thread of liberal bashing. typical.
Google-Verizon Pact: It Gets Worse
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| | | 129 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 09:36
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Wow. So much anger at 1am.
Yeah surprise the party of big government gets bashed in a thread about government fondling the internet. News at 10.
The internet is way too juicy of a target for the government to keep its meathooks off of. These people won't even let us handle our retirement or healthcare. What makes you think they'll let us self manage how we get our information?
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| | | 130 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 09:37
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BTW, the internet was never free to begin with really. Ever pay the bill from your provider?
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| | | 131 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 09:42
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Its a tough issue for conservatives. The free market position supports turning the internet into a tiered service where you pay more for better levels of access, like cable/satellite/fiber tv providers. Their proposal potentially eliminates the possibility of another startup with the vision of Google to take the same path to success, since a scrappy startupu might never be able to take advantages of services which are now sold at a premium.
Aligning with net neutrality advocates now also means supporting the FCC imposing regulations on how businesses are allowed to provide internet access to customers. The FCC announced last week that they have run out of compromises to offer.
I haven't looked into it but I have a gut feeling that there were more pro-net neutrality conservatives when Bush (who also appointed pro-net neutrality FCC comissioners) was president.
Despite the potential affront to small businesses in the free market position, the GOP in congress (which is well established as anti-net neutrality) will countter with the claim that Obama is stifiling job growth in silicon valley.
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| | | 133 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 09:44
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That's like saying roads aren't free because you have to buy gas to drive on them.
If you did a little bit of research, which has actually already been done for you in this thread, you'd see one group is on the right side of net neutrality and one is not.
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| | | 134 | C1-NRB
ID: 2672611 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 09:54
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BTW, the internet was never free to begin with really. Ever pay the bill from your provider?
In the olden days we used a service called "freei.net" It was "paid for" by constant ads that ran across the top of your browser. But that was back in the days before the bubble burst and companies realized that the internet didn't work like broadcast TV. I never sent anyone any money. Then it went out of business, so...
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| | | 135 | Frick
ID: 1076109 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 10:06
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Net neutrality has a couple of facets, but the main point is that all data has to be treated equally. The main fear is that a provider like Verizon could allow Google services (which now owns Youtube) to be very quick, but throttle data from a competing site, like Microsoft's Bing.
I don't have an issue with offering tiered service plans. I have a huge problem with providers trying to force me to their partnered content providers.
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| | | 136 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 10:16
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Yeah surprise the party of big government gets bashed in a thread about government fondling the internet.
actually, there's no surprise. i am no longer surprised when the ignorant and ill-informed (those who won't watch videos or read news stories or even think for themselves) bash the Obama administration for even the dumbest things.
BTW, the internet was never free to begin with really. Ever pay the bill from your provider?
the internet is free. and always has been.
access to it may, or may not be. there are still free ways to access the 'net, but for decent service, in all cases i know about, you have to pay for it. still, that's a choice.
if you wanted dial-up service, and you didn't mind lag times, and you used the 'net for a limited number of minutes per month, you could access the web for free.
but there's a difference between paying for access, and suddenly having tiered services related to what websites you might be able to visit.
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| | | 137 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 11:02
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Tiered service packaging for personal private access is bad enough, but I'm more concerned for how business services could be effected.
Also, the current proposal is much worse that the site- bottlenecking concern Frick describes. They want the right to block certain sites altogether, depending on how you access the Internet.
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| | | 138 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 13:17
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if you wanted dial-up service, and you didn't mind lag times, and you used the 'net for a limited number of minutes per month, you could access the web for free.
Right. And if I didn't mind an oil derrick, a refinery, and gas pump in my backyard I could probably drill for oil, refine it, and fill my car and get gas for free, but that ain't exactly realistic or representative of the population now is it?
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| | | 139 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 13:25
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Neither is the bill from your provider relevent to the reference to 'free internet' as it is primarily intended. That isn't the issue.
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| | | 140 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 13:28
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Hey, free means no cost right? OK, well every site is a pay site because it costs you money just to have a connection.
Are you against pay sites? I have a paid online subscription to the Wall Street Journal. You think I shouldn't have to pay for that? You got that ESPN Insider (I don't.)? Should everybody have that for free?
When I talk about the "free" internet, I am mainly talking about no censorship, thinks like that, but I still people in the right for companies to charge for premium content just like cable TV. What are you people talking about?
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| | | 141 | Mith
ID: 2672547 Tue, Aug 10, 2010, 18:33
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There's a summary of the Google/Verizon proposal in the link in #128.
The actual proposal is linked there.
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| | | 143 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 15:00
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0 for 95.
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| | | 144 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Nov 04, 2010, 15:21
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That is little surprising. I am not surprised that there were no republicans on the list but you would think that there would be at least one get elected. I guess we know where the money is at.
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| | | 145 | Boldwin
ID: 561149228 Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 14:01
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The net neutrality vision for government regulation of the Internet began with the work of [admitted marxist-B] Robert McChesney, a University of Illinois communications professor who founded the liberal lobby Free Press in 2002.
"But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control."
"Any serious effort to reform the media system would have to necessarily be part of a revolutionary program to overthrow the capitalist system itself."
...the "media reform" movement [six liberal foundations, Ford, Open Society, Pew, Bill Moyers's Schumann Center for Media and Democracy, the Joyce Foundation, John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation - B] paid for research that backed its views, paid activists to promote the research, saw its allies installed in the FCC and other key agencies, and paid for the FCC research that evaluated the research they had already paid for.
The Berkman Center's FCC- commissioned report, "Next Generation Connectivity," wound up being funded in large part by the Ford and MacArthur foundations. So some of the same foundations that have spent years funding net neutrality advocacy research ended up funding the FCC-commissioned study that evaluated net neutrality research.
Now they have their policy. That's quite a coup. - John Fund via WSJ
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| | | 146 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 16:56
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I actually know Bob McChesney. He's a left winger, all right, and his big issue is media ownership issues.
I realize that isn't a problem for those who enjoy getting tooled by the conservative media. And since the GOP is bought up completely by big business and their lobbyist such a piece is of no surprise to me. According to McChesney, Big Brother will take the form of a monopolistic media first, telling people what to think, when to think it, and what to do about it.
But I would have hoped that Fund would have either purchased some content to insert into his piece or just shut up about it, since he's incapable of generating any of his own.
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| | | 147 | Boldwin
ID: 561149228 Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 17:27
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Do you really feel the internet is monopoly controlled? There isn't any crisis that needs FCC fixing that I can see. It's the lack of government strings and monopoly power that has made the internet great.
But you are happy to turn monopoly power over the internet to politicians.
What could go wrong?
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| | | 148 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 18:40
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The point about net neutrality is that no one controls how content on the internet flows.
This isn't about "politicians" versus "big business." This is about "big business" versus "free flowing internet content."
Don't worry--FOX Nation told me it was so...
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| | | 149 | Boldwin
ID: 561149228 Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 20:00
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There is a lotta space between preventing preferential access by the providers and what Robert McChesney revealed was the real point of the exersize. I expect fits and starts as we descend to a censored internet Soros is paying for and people like Hillary have been craving for decades.
Listening to Sharpton threaten Limbaugh recently makes me realize there will be a rush to censor. And as soon as R's lose the House...
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| | | 150 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710 Thu, Dec 23, 2010, 10:21
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Because, clearly, only the left would ever try to buy media access to promote their viewpoint.
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| | | 151 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Thu, Dec 23, 2010, 10:29
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Here's a good infographic that breaks down the net neutrality issue.
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| | | 152 | weykool
ID: 138481617 Thu, Dec 23, 2010, 12:15
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Completely bogus argument Frick. As long as the market remains free there would be ISP companies that would charge just like they do now. If AT&T tries to bill for services seperately they would lose millions when customers switched to the better deal.
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| | | 153 | Razor
ID: 471172122 Thu, Dec 23, 2010, 13:29
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The completely bogus argument is to speculate that the ideal state, which is what we have now, might not be worsened by allowing companies to dictate what content is available. Tell me how ending net neutrality could possibly be better for consumers.
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| | | 154 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Dec 23, 2010, 13:37
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They own stock in AT&T? What do I win?
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| | | 155 | Boldwin
ID: 91156247 Fri, Dec 24, 2010, 09:19
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Tell me how ending net neutrality could possibly be better for consumers. - SZ
Tell me what harm we are suffering right now.
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| | | 156 | Frick
ID: 5310541617 Fri, Dec 24, 2010, 14:53
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Not sure what argument I was making. And internet service is a free market, with an extremely high barrier to entry.
I live in a city of 50k and I have 2 options if I want high speed internet. While it is a free market, I don't have unlimited choices.
NBC Universal and Comcast are moving. How long until NBC content is restricted to Comcast subscribers? Want to watch the Superbowl in 2012 in HD? Better have Comcast or you need to pay a premium to subscribe Comcast's HD feed.
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| | | 157 | Boldwin
ID: 38112911 Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 03:51
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| | | 158 | Boldwin
ID: 38112911 Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 04:00
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FCC Orders NBC Newsrooms To Partner With Soros-Funded Non-Profits
The local non profit journalism center is a member of INN (Investigative News Network) which is funded by the Open Society Institute, the URL of which is “www.soros.org.” Yes, these “non-profit” journalism centers are funded by George Soros.
And that is the 'local' activist pressure angle I was warning you about so often.
No big deal? We'll see how you feel when ABC is ordered to partner with a local Tea Party group to "co-produce and supply content" in 2013.
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| | | 159 | Mith
ID: 371138719 Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 06:00
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The "order" (if that term applies) gives all of 5 O&O NBC network affiliates 1 year to find a nonprofit local news organization to partner with.
Unless you can make a case that George Soros controls and advances his agenda through every or some majority of nonprofit news organizations in the country, I don't see the problem.
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| | | 161 | Boldwin
ID: 171501015 Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 17:08
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Really, if the FCC orders the local Tea Party to oversee the local branch of the MSM you are ok with it? Just getting you on the record for 2012 and on.
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| | | 162 | Mith
ID: 371138719 Thu, Feb 10, 2011, 23:52
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I have no idea what you mean by 'oversee' or why you think this will lead to their ordering associations between news media outlets and specific organizations.
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| | | 163 | Boldwin
ID: 171501015 Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 04:07
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This is getting Orwellian. Do you have trouble processing the words co-produce and order? If I give you the order to do something by a certain deadline have I not 'ordered you'?
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| | | 164 | Mith
ID: 371138719 Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 04:39
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I understand the word coproduce better than you do. 'Oversee' is not a synonym. And I clearly understand the use of the word order in this case better than you.
But this is a fun game. Do you have trouble processing the freedom of these 5 network O&Os to select a nonprofit of their choosing?
When media outlets are forced to content of other organizations selected by the FCC, you'll have me as an ally. Until something resembling that happens, this is just another chicken little cry for attention.
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| | | 165 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 00:11
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Bitter Struggle Over Internet Regulation to Dominate Global Summit
The 12-day conference of the International Telecommunications Union, a 157-year-old organization that's now an arm of the United Nations, largely pits revenue-seeking developing countries and authoritarian regimes that want more control over Internet content against U.S. policymakers and private Net companies that prefer the status quo. While specifics of some of the most contentious proposals remain secret, leaked drafts show that Russia is seeking rules giving individual countries broad permission to shape the content and structure of the Internet within their borders, while a group of Arab countries is advocating universal identification of Internet users. Some developing countries and telecom providers, meanwhile, want to make content providers pay for Internet transmission. Fundamentally, most of the 193 countries in the ITU seem eager to enshrine the idea that the U.N. agency, rather than today's hodgepodge of private companies and nonprofit groups, should govern the Internet.
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| | | 166 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 12:30
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Good Post, Probably one of the more important stories right now and it is being largely ignored.
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| | | 167 | Boldwin
ID: 121044275 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 18:18
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Huge.
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| | | 168 | Boldwin
ID: 121044275 Tue, Nov 27, 2012, 19:23
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Not in the same league as the last point, but here an Australian jury does it's best to bankrupt Google's search engine business. Perhaps on behalf of a mobster, no less.
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| | | 170 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112 Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 12:18
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and with the current SCOTUS sitting 5-4 in favor of profits over fairness, if it goes before SCOTUS anytime relatively soon; net neutrality will remain in serious jeopardy.
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