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| Posted by: Perm Dude
- [46104428] Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 13:48
I'm going to go on record and say +20 Dems in the House, +4 in the Senate.
Larry Sabato's Crystal Ball says the Republicans will not take one single seat away from Democrats in the House, Senate, or governor races. He's predicting +6 in the Senate, +27 in the House, and +7 Governor races. Seems too optimistic to me across the board. But there you go. Anyone else care for a prediction at this point? |
| | | 1 | The Treasonists Donor
ID: 171572711 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 14:36
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I bet the Republicans will win the majority in the House. I got 3 to 1 odds. You can bet the Democrats will win and get 1 to 4 odds. This is on a real betting site with real odds and payouts. These are generally more accurate than any poll, as people are betting real money on the outcomes. The odds are predicting a Democrat majority at this point.
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| | | 2 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 21:35
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That's pretty bold. It seems to me that nearly all the close House races will have to go Republican for that to happen.
Rothenberg, on the other hand, seems to be on crack. Predicting as many as 40 gains for Democrats is just setting yourself up for disappointment, IMO.
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| | | 3 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 10944281 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 21:51
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From the NY Times Op-Ed page.
Op-Ed Contributor
Winning Small By BRIAN MANN
Published: November 2, 2006 Saranac Lake, N.Y.
WITH the midterm election just a few days away, Republicans face a toxic political environment, fouled in large part by growing bitterness over the handling of the war in Iraq. By almost every measure, voter discontent is deeper than it was in 1994, when Democrats lost nine seats in the Senate and 54 in the House.
Surely, the Republican Party is facing an electoral drubbing. And yet, President Bush and Karl Rove baldly assert that Republicans will retain control of Congress. The rationale?
Majorities in Congress aren’t formed by the national zeitgeist, as Mr. Rove cheerfully points out. They are built one race at a time. And in dozens of close contests this fall, the outcome will be determined largely by one often-overlooked minority group: the mostly white and mostly conservative voters who live in America’s small towns.
Residents of rural areas make up only a fifth of the country’s population. That’s a little less than African-Americans and Hispanics combined. But unlike voters in those minority groups, small-town whites are often kingmakers in national politics.
In 2004, they voted for George W. Bush by nearly a 20-point margin. Newspapers ran headlines that baffled their urban readers: “Rural Values Proved Pivotal,” “Conservatives in Rural Ohio Big Key in Bush Victory,” and “G.O.P. Won With Accent on Rural and Traditional.”
This year, those same right-leaning small towns make up a major voting bloc in a half-dozen make-or-break Senate races, like those in Missouri, Montana, Tennessee and Virginia. They also dominate battleground House districts throughout the country, from Idaho to northern New York. If rural America embraces Republicans with the same fervor it did two years ago, Democrats will almost certainly be denied a majority in the Senate and may fall short in the House.
In part, the electoral importance of small towns reflects a profound rural bias hardwired into our political system. The Constitution grants two Senate seats to each state regardless of its population. As a consequence, a majority of senators are elected by voters in 26 sparsely settled states that together contain less than 18 percent of the country’s population.
A few decades ago, this uneven distribution of power didn’t matter, because rural states regularly divided their votes between the two major parties. But in recent years, low-population states like Alaska, Kansas and Wyoming have voted as a conservative bloc, favoring Republican candidates by overwhelming margins.
Today the Republican Party holds an 11-seat Senate majority, but Republican senators represent 4.5 million fewer people than their Democratic colleagues, who tend to come from urban states like California, Illinois and New York. In the 2004 elections, Democratic candidates for the Senate captured nearly 10 percent more votes than Republicans nationwide, thanks to landslide support among urbanites. Yet the Republicans still managed to gain four seats, due to victories in rural states like South Dakota and South Carolina.
A similarly skewed outcome is possible this year. Democrats are widely expected to gain seats in Ohio and Pennsylvania. If they do, Democratic senators will represent some 10 to 20 million more Americans nationwide than Republican senators. But if rural voters in Missouri, Tennessee and Virginia swing conservative, the Republicans will cling to the narrow majority Mr. Rove has promised.
In the House, Republican leaders, including Speaker Dennis Hastert and his former deputy, Tom DeLay, have worked to create a similar small-town bias. They redrew district lines to systematically fracture the voting power of urban and suburban neighborhoods in half a dozen states, including Florida, Ohio and Texas.
In 2003, The Washington Post published an analysis of this scheme by a Texas political operative, Joby Fortson: “This has a real national impact that should assure that Republicans keep the House no matter the national mood,” Mr. Fortson wrote.
Naturally, the Republicans’ rural strategy only works if small towns vote Republican by wide margins. This year, that might not happen. A bipartisan poll conducted last week for the Center for Rural Strategies found that the loyalty of rural voters has been deeply shaken by Iraq and the Mark Foley page scandal.
Since September, rural voters moved from a four-point advantage for Republicans to a four-point advantage for Democrats in Senate races, the Rural Strategies report concluded, and from evenly divided to a 13-point advantage for the Democrats in House races.
Worse yet for Republicans, a growing number of Democrats have awakened to the fact that small towns matter. In Missouri, Claire McCaskill’s Senate campaign has focused so intently on small-town voters that The St. Louis Post-Dispatch described it as an “apparent obsession.” And nationwide, Democrats are fielding centrist candidates who can compete in rural districts like Idaho’s First, Indiana’s Second, and New York’s 24th.
If Democrats succeed in increasing their rural vote, they could decisively sweep Republicans from power. But as the Center for Rural Strategies has pointed out, most of these races will be decided by razor-thin margins. And the Republicans are working feverishly to mollify and re-energize their rural base with talk about same-sex marriage, abortion, gun rights, public Christianity, terrorism and immigration — all issues that play brilliantly in small towns. The Republican National Committee has cranked up its sophisticated get-out-the-vote machine, combining phone and mail prompts, pastor-and-pulpit networks, conservative talk radio and door-to-door canvassing.
On Election Day, millions of urban Democrats will go to the polls expecting victory and dramatic change in Washington. But beware: Mr. Rove’s sunny forecast isn’t just spin. He and his party are counting on small towns to send a very different message, and to give the Republicans two more years to get it right.
(Brian Mann, a reporter for North Country Public Radio, is the author of “Welcome to the Homeland: A Journey to the Rural Heart of America’s Conservative Revolution.”)
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| | | 4 | Perm Dude
ID: 46104428 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 21:58
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Mann appears to be hedging just a bit. I read a decent piece by Andrew Sullivan about him recently. The last election was a success because Bush energized this rural vote--he turned around the idea that higher voting rates favor the Dems by ensuring that the rural (mostly conservative) voters matched the increases in other voters.
But rural voters are also largely white and Christian. And among that group Democrats are doing surprisingly well.
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| | | 5 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Thu, Nov 02, 2006, 22:47
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John Tester: Out of Montana, a New Kind of Democrat
For an out-of-power party sick of losing the rural vote to Republicans, Tester has emerged as a savior. If he prevails in his effort to unseat three-term Republican incumbent Conrad Burns, as recent polls suggest he could, Tester will become the latest among several examples of tough, iconoclastic Democrats who are winning in red areas of the country by mixing their own rural roots with a gritty populism. It's a style (and a strategy) that turns the tables on cowboy conservatives, and it's being mimicked elsewhere with good results. This election cycle, with a wave of frustration building against Republicans in Congress, liberal candidates in the Tester mold have been running strong in unexpected places, such as Eastern Washington and Western Idaho. And in other parts of the West (not the cushy West Coast, but the rugged Rocky Mountain West) there is excited talk of completing a "Blue Bridge" of Democratic governorships spanning five red states.
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| | | 7 | The Treasonists Donor
ID: 171572711 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 10:46
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Just checked the odds. You can still get 3 to 1 on Republicans winning the House. Or 2 to 1 on Democrats winning the Senate.
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| | | 8 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:20
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Boxman - that is the best post you've ever made.
he SO has my vote.
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| | | 9 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:33
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I'm blocked from the link in #6, and cannot see the punchline. To what/whom does the link refer?
thx, walk
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| | | 10 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:36
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You're blocked? Damn. It's a guy named Josh Jennings running for congress (he doesn't say which district, just write him in on your ballot). He's essentially a life slacker looking to get elected. It's all for fun and it is funny. He even got mentioned on MSNBC. Funny stuff.
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| | | 11 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:38
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Boxman
What district are you in?
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| | | 12 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 13:39
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Cool, I'll check it out at home later tonight. thx, walk
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| | | 13 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 14:28
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PD I'm going to go on record and say +20 Dems in the House, +4 in the Senate.
I'm assuming you are talking gains from the present, yes?
Here is what I see happening.
Senate: 50/50 with Sanders (VT) and Lieberman (CN) voting with Democrats.
I see Talent winning in MT, Menendez in NJ, Webb beating "Macaca" Allen in VA, Santorum being wiped off the Senate floor by 16%+, Cantwell by 13%+ here in WA, Lieberman narrowly defeating Lamont with the Republican challenger receiving 11%, completely laughable.
I have a horrible feeling about MO with Jim "no known" Talent eeking out a close one. This is the state that subjected us to John Ashcroft. I'd simply urge Ms. McCaskill not to get onto a plane today or tomorrow.
My 50/50 call has Corker winning TN thanks to some horribly nasty ads, but to be honest, I don't have a feel for the race and wouldn't be surprised if Ford won, wait, I would be surprised because he seems like a great guy and Tennessee sucks.
As for the House, I believe that the Dems will hold a 230-203 advantage at the end of the day. I am really, really hoping that Darcy Burner unseats Dave "Third" Reichart here in WA. Other races I'm eagerly hoping for Democratic victories are CA 4 Brown beating Dolittle and Richard Pombo, one of Abrahamof's most corrupt lapdogs in CA 11, losing to McCearny.
Keep your fingers crossed for the medical marijuana initiative in South Dakota and the regulation initiative in Nevada.
Where is Toral? Drowning your sorrows? Can't bear to face the music?
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| | | 14 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 14:40
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I'm blocked from the link in #6, and cannot see the punchline.
can you go to this link, which is all his commercials collected on you tube?
i'm partial to his first one, and the one where he is "giving back"...
Tucker Carlson loved him and Keith Olbermann endorsed him.
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| | | 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 171049612 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 14:46
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Yes, my prediction is based upon the current makeup.
Republicans have made a few gains (Mason-Dixon polls show them having a small bit of momentum in certain close races), and this might be a result of illegal robocalling. But the latest polls don't reflect the "tightening" of the races we saw on Friday/Saturday. So the NRCC might have shot its wad too early.
Some negative ads (like the one in Tennessee with the bimbo) actually have backfired. Two-thirds of those who said they saw the ad have said that the ad makes them more likely to vote for Ford rather than Corker.
Essentially, in the Senate Democrats have to win three of four: Montana, Missouri, Virginia, Tennessee.
Even if it doesn't happen, the fact that the day before the election Democrats are running competitively in a whole host of "red" districts is something that can be built on.
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| | | 16 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 14:50
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Where is Toral? Drowning your sorrows? Can't bear to face the music?
I'll weigh in tomorrow morning. There are still polls coming in today, you know.
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| | | 18 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 14:59
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thx, Tree. For sure at home...but youtube is currently accessible for me at work, but due to the proxies and firewalls, only works intermittently. I'll check it out anoche.
- walk
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| | | 19 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 15:10
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Post 16
Excellent. Toral is pretty damn good at this game.
There is always a just-before election pushback by the side about to lose.
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| | | 20 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 15:29
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Boxman
What district are you in?
Great question. It's either the 6th, 13th or 14th. DuPage County Illinois. I don't know off the top of my head.
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| | | 21 | KM
ID: 319311512 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 15:41
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Frequently updated polling links by race
+21 in the house. 50 Dems in Senate. I'm in MO, and I'm starting to get worried about the turnout machine. McCaskill has largely run on a Talent-sucks platform, and tried to link him to Bush as much as possible. I don't think that has stuck too well, that strategy has been much more succesful on the coasts. Talent has all the personality of a doorknob, and comes off as the law professor he was, in a state with a lot of country-loving blue-collar votes that shift all over the place every election. But, they've spent so much defending themselves, that I doubt McCaskill has convinced moderates what she actually stand for. Bottom line, without the stem cell inititative, I doubt many people give a damn about this race, and the edge has to go to turnout. I've also read recently that the stem cell initiative is predicted to bring out more Republican-non voters than Democratic non-voters.
I'd say: TN-R, VA-D, MT-D, RH-D, MO-R. I hope I'm wrong, but if not, you can put that one on a very weak MO Democrat. We needed a loud and proud Tester type around here.
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| | | 22 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 15:48
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In Illinois' 6th the Republican incumbant there is retiring and the race is currently listed as a tossup at the NYT Election Guide. Far be it from me to tell you how to vote but if that's your district perhaps you might want to take a close look at the race before removing your ballot from it in favor of Josh Jennings.
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| | | 23 | Perm Dude
ID: 141053613 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 16:13
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KM:
Today's Rasmussen poll puts Talent ahead 49-48, but Gallup has McCaskill up 49-45. Every poll I've seen in that race for the last 4-6 weeks or so, except for a Dem poll on October 13th, have been within the MOE. Essentially McCaskill pulled even in late August and it has been a no-momentum race since.
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| | | 24 | KM
ID: 319311512 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 16:25
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Right, I'm fully aware. I just have a gut feeling from being on the ground.
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| | | 25 | The Treasonists Donor
ID: 171572711 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 16:33
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The polls don't take into account voting machine fraud. Whenever the machines mess up it, it seems to favor Republicans.
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| | | 26 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 16:36
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You mean it seems to favor the winners, you will never hear a winner say i think they cheated to come in second place.
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| | | 27 | prefek
ID: 247581719 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 17:01
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I'm gonna err on the side of caution:
(D-R) 49-51 Senate 217-218 House 27-23 Gov
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| | | 28 | Matt S
ID: 399562514 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 17:14
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I predict dirty politicians will win both. What kind of odds can I get on THAT?
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| | | 29 | The Treasonists Donor
ID: 171572711 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 17:45
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Matt: Nobody will take the other side of that bet.
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| | | 30 | J-Bar
ID: 25911418 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 21:22
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I feel that the house will be 217R and 218D (and 7 contested results) and the Senate 51R 49D. I am hoping that the un-biased media is over-stating the expected gains just like them and their polls have in the past. Should be interesting. At least if they do win the house maybe we will finally get them to admit what they stand for and come forth with some legislative ideas and not just "Bush bad, me good". Doubtful that they will risk the 2008 election by coming out of the closet though.
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| | | 31 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 21:24
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Coming out of the closet?
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| | | 32 | Perm Dude
ID: 141053613 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 21:28
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That's right: Gay bad. Me good.
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| | | 33 | J-Bar
ID: 25911418 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 21:39
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LMAO Didn't say anything about gay, the reference was about their TRUE beliefs and actions on political issues. So quick to pounce you can't even look at the context.
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| | | 34 | Perm Dude
ID: 141053613 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 21:42
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:)
We're just kidding. On homosexuality, Dems are the ones who are out of the closet. The Republicans are the closet cases (see Foley, Mark and Haggard, Ted).
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| | | 35 | J-Bar
ID: 25911418 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 21:55
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What's the over/under on number of contested results?
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| | | 36 | Perm Dude
ID: 141053613 Mon, Nov 06, 2006, 22:13
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Montana looking more and more blue.
Looks like the Dems have to win 2 of 3 from Missouri, Tennessee, and Virginia to win the majority. I don't know if they will take Tennessee. And VA and MO are tossups. After our local victory party, I'll be spending a lot of time watching returns in other states, it looks like.
One good thing about electronic voting is that the results will be much quicker. I can't say whether they are accurate or not, but at least we'll get numbers to argue over much more quickly than in the past.
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| | | 37 | KM
ID: 319311512 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 00:03
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Some positive add-on to my negative itch in MO... local news poll had McCaskill up 5%. Not sure if I trust these national or local pollsters more, but I'm going to dellude myself and presume they are more intelligent in their sampling techniques given greater familiarity with the state. Or something.
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| | | 38 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 06:32
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What's the over/under on number of contested results?
How about 4? It'll probably be higher but I don't want to admit that I'll be annoyed with more election talk on the TV for two more weeks.
My predictions:
Republicans lose 4 in the Senate. Republicans lose 13 in the House.
I'd like to see a dead heat in the Senate at 50/50. That would make the next two years very fun.
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| | | 39 | walk
ID: 259313119 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 07:45
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I love being able to vote so early. Done by 7am. Two block walk, five minutes, come home, tag the mrs. her turn, we're both done by 7:20. Tons of volunteers at the high school to steer you to the right booth. Nice simple, old-fashioned lever system. No chads, no scanning, no electronic voting.
- walk
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| | | 40 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 08:05
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tag the mrs.
That could be interpreted several ways ;)
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| | | 41 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 08:08
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come home, tag the mrs.
Now you're talking. Oh, wait, you meant her turn to vote . :))))
I've got an s-load of sick/vacation days to burn before the end of the year so I'm home today with my wife. We're going to vote shortly. There'll probably be some tagging going on here later today as well. :)
My polling place is a school too.
One thing I don't understand is that if we're so concerned as a society to keep the schools safe, why do we use them as polling places? Hundreds if not thousands of people who would otherwise have no business being there just waltz right in. It's asking for a huge problem. They'd be better off using local community centers or the village hall.
Any referendums on your ballots?
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| | | 42 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 08:19
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? The schools aren't closed in IL today?
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| | | 43 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 08:24
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House: DEMS +29
Senate: R 50 D 50
Reps win Tenn, Vir; Dems win Mo, NJ
Toral
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| | | 44 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 09:10
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Yeah, I liked playing tag with the mrs...I had hoped that line would result in those replies.
Indiana polls close at 6pm, IIRC. Some results relatively early.
- walk
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| | | 45 | C1-NRB
ID: 24954318 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 09:30
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Why do we still have an official Election Day? They'll let anyone vote "early" for any reason. The wife and I voted Friday because, well, we wanted to. (And she is out of town today- but I didn't have an "excuse" to vote early.) Not voting early is almost like not getting out of jury duty.
I also voted electronically. It took a minute to get the hang of it, but it went OK otherwise (I guess).
Why don't we have a "Voting Week" with a Tuesday 5:00 deadline with the polls open over the weekend?
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| | | 46 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 09:42
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Mith: ? The schools aren't closed in IL today? No, sadly they are open today.
Walk: Indiana polls close at 6pm, IIRC. Some results relatively early.
WGN-TV in Chicago is already having a live correspondent report that some people are already complaining about the voting method that it is too confusing. I was out of the room at the time, so I'm not confident about which specific method they are discussing, but I believe it relates to punching holes in paper again. If we can't punch holes in paper it's a miracle we haven't been successfully invaded by the Nazis, Russians or Chinese sometime in our history.
C1-NRB: Why don't we have a "Voting Week" with a Tuesday 5:00 deadline with the polls open over the weekend?
Now that's an idea. I'd only add that any early counting results must be kept secret so as to not sway the rest of "Voting Week". I bet you'd really increase turnout with that idea.
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| | | 47 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 09:50
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I'm somewhat torn, re how I hope this election proceeds. I think its a fairly good bet, that the Reps will lose the WH in 2008. Given that probability, I hope the Dems fall short of a majority in both houses of Congress. If they essentially split the House and come up 1 seat shy, and take a majority in the Senate, I'd be absolutely tickled. (The reverse would work too for that matter. Take a majority in the house and split the Senate. Potential "problem" with that, is that the VP is the tie-breaking vote in the Senate. A 50-50 split, essentially delivers the Senate the the party occupying the WH.)
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| | | 48 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 10:02
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"Freedom" video
Very anti-Bush; homemade and well-done. - walk
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| | | 49 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 12:25
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Boxman, ties in the Senate would be broken by the Vice President, so no real fun there!
Voted electronically this morning. Very easy. I think it will make things much easier so long as we can overcome the issue of accountability (through which to meaure accuracy). Electronic voting is much simpler. I don't believe that we'd want to continue to work with a cumbersome and confusing system simply because that's the way we've always done it.
Thanks for the prediction, Toral. You might be dead on with those, though I'm sticking with my predictions at the top, particularly since RI seems to be in-play right now.
Any predictions on how many Republican Representatives/Senators will jump to the Dems after election? I think they all see the writing on the wall in 2008.
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| | | 50 | The Treasonists Donor
ID: 171572711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 12:38
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Zero.
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| | | 51 | soxzeitgeist
ID: 321033711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 12:44
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As a prediction: +20 Dems in the House, +5 in the Senate, + 2 in the races for gov'nah.
That said, I think we're looking at a similarly cantankerous and gridlocked Congress, as playing to the fringes of party faithful and the safety of most seats for the vast majority of incumbents (thanks to "safe" districts where super-majorities vote like lemmings) will result in little change from the increasing polarization we've seen the last decade or so.
It will be nice to have at least a little oversight for the last two years of the administration though.
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| | | 52 | C1-NRB
ID: 24954318 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 13:29
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Re: 46- Absolutely. No counting of ballots until the final poll closed, especially for national elections.
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| | | 53 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 13:35
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Mith: ? The schools aren't closed in IL today?
I think my pea brain caught on to what you were implying. My wife took the day off with me.
Perm Dude: Voted electronically this morning. Very easy. I think it will make things much easier so long as we can overcome the issue of accountability (through which to meaure accuracy). Electronic voting is much simpler. I don't believe that we'd want to continue to work with a cumbersome and confusing system simply because that's the way we've always done it.
We're back from voting and other errands. We tried a little experiment; I voted regularly and my wife voted electronically.
My experience was pretty straightforward. Just fill in the ovals with black marker and send it into the machine.
My wife got a credit card looking thing and slid it into the machine which brought up her ballot. She voted on a touch screen with her finger. We wrote myself in for governor on both ballots so she was able to type my name on there. After she was done voting, she hit a "print" button which allegedly printed out the results that according to the volunteer went to a "secure location".
Before my wife voted, they took her thru a mini orientation on how to vote electronically and a person asked her if she had any questions when she started voting.
IIRC, these machines were new because I don't recall seeing them there during the primary.
We vote at an elementary school. After passing thru no metal detectors or any regular uniform police officers of any kind, we went to our voting area which was no further than about 100 feet from the school library and about 150 feet from a classroom. No security whatsoever.
This is bad news and is begging for a tragedy. They could at least have one cop there or the school cop.
I voted a straight Republican ticket (I should note there were about 5 races where only a Republican was running.) including myself as a write in for governor. There was a referendum on a 68 million dollar county bond issuance for work on the forest preserves.
I voted "no" on that because they spend money like water in DuPage and if they've got to do a bond issuance on 68 mil in a county like this, then I'm worried about how our books are handled. I'm not against preserves or keeping them updated, I'd just prefer them not being financed via debt.
And back to Mith again, I am in the 6th district to answer your question from the other day. I voted for Roskam.
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| | | 54 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 13:54
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I think my pea brain caught on to what you were implying. My wife took the day off with me.
I'm not sure what you mean by that but I think you're overthinking what I wrote. You indicated that allowing hundreds of adult voters to walk into a school is asking for a safety problem (presumably for students).
I'm very surprised to hear that schools used as polling centers in your area are kept open for classes.
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| | | 55 | C1-NRB
ID: 24954318 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 14:11
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Boxman- I assume you didn't fill in the "Vote Straight Ticket" oval because, if you did, you voted for the Republican gubernatorial candidate and your write-in for yourself won't count. Or will it?
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| | | 56 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 14:34
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There was a referendum on a 68 million dollar county bond issuance for work on the forest preserves.
An amount being spent in Iraq on what? A daily basis?
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| | | 58 | KM
ID: 319311512 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 14:42
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Quite the expensive public hanging. But hey, at least that $2 billion is making America safer from forgein threats, right?
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| | | 59 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 14:58
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Mith: I'm not sure what you mean by that but I think you're overthinking what I wrote. I had mentioned previously somewhere on these boards that my wife is a Principal so I thought you were remarking in that regard. I misunderstood. :)
You indicated that allowing hundreds of adult voters to walk into a school is asking for a safety problem (presumably for students).
I'm very surprised to hear that schools used as polling centers in your area are kept open for classes.
They most certainly are (and it's not just in my area) and even worse the kids were easily within eye sight and ear shot. There was a whole class of kids in the library and it was a straight line down the hall into an open doored classroom. A motivated pervert/psycho could easily sprint into that library or classroom and do whatever evil thing he desired. I passed thru no metal detectors and saw no police or security of any uniformed kind.
C1-NRB: Boxman- I assume you didn't fill in the "Vote Straight Ticket" oval because, if you did, you voted for the Republican gubernatorial candidate and your write-in for yourself won't count. Or will it?
I didn't fill in the straight ticket oval because I was writing myself in because otherwise Topinka would've gotten my vote.
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| | | 60 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 15:00
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With all due respect, a motivated perv isn't going to let metal detectors stop them either. Let's not be too alarmist here.
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| | | 61 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 15:16
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by all means...lets put armed personnel at the entrance of every school building in the country.
C'mon Box....wouldnt make a difference even if we did.
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| | | 62 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 16:51
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With all due respect, a motivated perv isn't going to let metal detectors stop them either. Let's not be too alarmist here.
On a normal school day those doors are probably locked from the inside. At each of my wife's schools in order for a person to get in on a regular class day they have to enter at the admin office and/or be buzzed in. That level of security isn't even there. On an election day, this is clearly a gaping hole. Just pointing it out.
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| | | 63 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 16:59
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NP. I hear ya.
An argument for another day.
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| | | 64 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 18:38
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Exit poll rumours from The Corner at National Review Online:
Democrats leading:
Virginia (52-47) Rhode Island (53-46) Pennsylvania (57-42) Ohio (57-43) New Jersey (52-45) Montana (53-46) Missouri (50-48) Maryland (53-46)
Republicans leading:
Tennessee (51-48) Arizona (50-46)
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| | | 65 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 18:43
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Thanks, Toral. Bigger spread than I thought in MT, NJ, and MD. I'm sure it'll tighten up as the more rural districts start reporting in.
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| | | 66 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 18:49
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The new(er) numbers have VA 52-37. This must be a typo.
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| | | 67 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 19:19
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One of my personal bellwether races is the always embattled Anne Northup (Ky 3), who I figured, and saw someone else say, would be a bellwether as to whether the Dems were likely to have a 25+ night in the House.
With 55% of the precincts in (they roll up the sidewalks early in Kentucky), Northup leads 50-49. (From CNN)
Toral
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| | | 69 | The Treasonists
ID: 571192610 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 19:32
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I like Michael Barone. He is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to election knowledge. Looks like he's on Fox this year. IMO, he is to elections what Mel Kiper is to the draft.
The Republicans are running a theory that exit polling is not accurate because:
A. More Republicans have to work, and thus vote later and are not included in exit polls.
B. Exit poll workers are paid by the person and thus go to large precincts where they can get more respondants. Larger precincts are in bigger cities and more Democratic.
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| | | 70 | prefek
ID: 247581719 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 20:02
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Re 55
I'm paying extra-close attention to that one as well. In 2004 The early turnout seemed to indicate KY Senator Jim Bunning would lose, as had been predicted by some of the more dem-leaning polls. By the time the majority of precincts reported, Bunning had regained his lead, and I knew it was good news for the GOP.
With 81% reporting, Yarmuth (D) is now leading Northup (R) 50-49, a difference of about 4000 votes. This race is by no means over, but for me it's going to be every bit as telling as Bunning was two years ago.
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| | | 71 | KM
ID: 319311512 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 20:09
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Best oline site to track results w/ % reporting?
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| | | 72 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 20:19
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I'm using cnn.com but there may be something faster out there.
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| | | 74 | Boxman
ID: 49101015 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 21:19
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Early polls are showing well for Topinka who is neck and neck with Blagojevich for governor in Illinois. She was expected to lose by 4-15 points.
I've got FOX and CNN on my split screen and apparently there is a point spread in effect with the Menendez election. He's down 3%, but is the projected winner.
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| | | 75 | Tree
ID: 581027718 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 21:53
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TPM seems to be listing heavy Democratic wins so far.
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| | | 76 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 22:27
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NYT showing Republican incumbant Deborah Price leading Dem Mary Jo Kilroy by 111 votes in Ohio District 15 with 81.7 precincts reporting.
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| | | 77 | Tree
ID: 581027718 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 22:27
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One of my personal bellwether races is the always embattled Anne Northup (Ky 3), who I figured, and saw someone else say, would be a bellwether as to whether the Dems were likely to have a 25+ night in the House.
CBS and CNN.com both project Yarmuth as the winner over Northup...
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| | | 78 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 22:28
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Anne lost about an hour ago.
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| | | 79 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 22:37
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Looking bad for 4 of the 5 House GOP incumbants in PA.
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| | | 80 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 22:39
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...on CNN's 'key races' board, that is.
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| | | 81 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:10
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CNN projecting the House will have Dem majority.
Of note:
IMO, Wolf Blitzer, Bill Bennett and James Carville are unwatchable.
JC Watts is very good.
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| | | 82 | KM
ID: 319311512 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:20
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Much prefer MSNBC. Less uninformed bulls*it from the suits.
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| | | 83 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:28
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My sattelite system doesn't carry MSNBC or Fox News in my package.
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| | | 84 | Tree
ID: 581027718 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:29
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i prefer comedy central.
which, right now, is amazing.
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| | | 85 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:29
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I agree, PV. He kept referring to NJ as having "re-elected Menendez to the Senate." I was screaming at the TV: "He was never elected in the first place, idiot!"
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| | | 86 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:31
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Colorado Measure 44 and Nevada Question 7 are doing very poorly, but it is early. South Dakota Measure 4 is too close to call. I guess the cannabis smoke wafting up from the victory parties across the nation will remain illegal. So sad.
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| | | 87 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:33
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BTW, just to keep it interesting I've been reading the National Review tonight as reality sets it. Fascinating to watch these people come down to earth. It's like Elisabeth Kubler-Ross' stages of death and dying.
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| | | 88 | KM
ID: 319311512 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:55
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This Webb thing is like Manning with 2 minutes left. And, at the rate he's been surging + absentee, I'll take Webb pre-recount. Still very scared about MO.
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| | | 89 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:57
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Are you freaking kidding me on that race in VA?? Less than 3000 with 99% reporting?
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| | | 90 | KM
ID: 319311512 Tue, Nov 07, 2006, 23:58
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He was down 7K with 98%, 12K with 97%, 23K with about 95%. I'm doing the math.
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| | | 91 | Tree
ID: 581027718 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:04
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Webb is up now? amazing!
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| | | 92 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:04
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CNN is showing Webb up about 2500 with 99% reporting.
In past years, absentee ballots would be considered to be more likely to be Republican (military votes, seniors, etc) but provisional ballots have tossed that out the window. It really is anyone's race now.
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| | | 93 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:06
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Just looked at the deeper numbers. The two counties still reporting are very strong Webb counties, Charlottesville and Arlington. All of Allen's strongest counties have reported in already. Webb's lead is likely to grow before absentee/provisional ballots are opened.
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| | | 94 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:07
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I have no idea the validity of this, but non-partisan talking heads indicated absentee would fall for Webb. I don't know if they have access to # of ballots by county or whatever.
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| | | 95 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:08
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Exactly, PD, I started becoming very hopeful around that 95% mark when Webb was gaining more than the share heed neded with each passing % of precincts reporting. Beltway counties too.
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| | | 96 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:10
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I just took a peek at CNN's deep numbers for TN. I think Corker has this one, up 58,800. I think Ford will tighten this up, but three counties are still reporting in and I can't see Ford making up that much since two of the counties are likely to help Corker, even though they are smaller than "Ford's" county.
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| | | 97 | Tree
ID: 581027718 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:14
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Missouri is also looking Republican.
if Webb wins VA, we may be 50-50 in the senate.
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| | | 98 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:16
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MO is odd. Some counties haven't reported anything yet.
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| | | 99 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:18
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I've been looking into the MO breakdown. Those numbers are very misleading. Jackson county (Kansas City) is only 33% in. St. Louis County in only 10% in. She should get another +5K margin from the 10% left to report in St. Louis City. You throw those together(~50K uncounted margin for McCaskill), and they look neck and neck. I'd still give the edge to Talent as several ticky-tack rural counties will probably add up to a slight victory. But you will very much see a Webb-type charge here. I just doubt it is enough.
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| | | 101 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 00:34
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As it stands now, Talent is up by 48K. If partially reported precincts continue their current margins for each candidate, Talent will only be up by about 10K.
9 Counties are totally unreported, and a couple spound familiar (IE, might be urban). I'll look into those to see if there is any Dem hope there. Otherwise, Talent probably wins.
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| | | 103 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 01:08
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McCaskill WAY up.
Urban counties accelerating their preference for McCaskill as the reporting increased. Now it's Talent's southwesten base versus McCaskill's KC base. More unreported votes around KC, I'd be really surprised if this went back to Talent now. That 70% St. Louis preference for McCaskill sort of bushwhacked everyone.
MO, MT, VA all leaning Dem. Still some ifs, but I'd take better than even money on referring to Majority leader Harry Reid shortly.
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| | | 104 | Perm Dude
ID: 121016711 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 01:50
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It's a freaking bloodbath.
Dems might squeek in with close wins in the last three states. I've been looking over the House races, and there were large numbers of races which were a lot closer than I thought they'd be in districts that should have been real cakewalks for Republicans (Nev 03, WY 01, etc.). And I have found only one race (there might be more) where an incumbant Democrat lost to a Republican (Marshall in the Georgia 08 race).
"Count" Chocola is gone. Hostettler got spanked. Bass and Sweeney are out.
Reynolds survived, but had a very weak opposition candidate (IMO) who still got 48% despite seeming to really dislike public events. Chabot cruised--did better than polls said he would. He's still a huge ass and has been since I knew him 20 years ago. Mean Jean seems to have survived--all the districts reported and she's up 2,000 so it isn't clear why CNN didn't already declare her.
In the PA 08 race, two Irish boys duke it out and the guy who looks like he is about 15 beat the guy who looks like he's about 19.
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| | | 105 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 01:58
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I'm shocked at the House. What are we at? +35? Amazing.
McCaskill just claimed victory. Webb has too. Tester's up by 4%, and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of unreported Republican strongholds.
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| | | 106 | prefek
ID: 533452911 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 02:45
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CNN is reporting Webb's lead is a much-healthier 11k+ now. Talent has conceded MO and Tester's carryinga 4% lead at the moment. Looks like The high 230's in the House and 51 in the senate. That's a sizeable wave - the upper end of most mainstream predictions.
Also, since I took my shots at the polls in 2004, let me be among the first to congratulate them. They were google-like in accuracy this time around. They've learned their lessons, at least this time around.
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| | | 107 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 03:19
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It's a shame that of all the Dems to break through, Ford had to go down. That would have been quite a milestone in the South.
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| | | 108 | Tree
ID: 20102185 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 06:25
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KM - *great* call on MO.
holy moley. this has been simply astonishing.
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| | | 109 | walk
ID: 259313119 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 07:58
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Virginia, by law, is going to need a recount, and that cannot even begin until Nov. 27th. Montana is soo close, but Tester is in front. Man, this is exciting. Dems got a lot of support (or Bush got a lot of bashing) last night. I like the results.
- walk
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| | | 110 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 09:37
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Walk - maybe not. less than half a percent is automatic and the government pays for it. between that and less than 1 percent is at the discretion of the candidate, but he has to pay for it.
over one percent? who knows...
btw, can i grab Heath Shuler for my fantasy team...lol...
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| | | 111 | Trip Leader
ID: 13961611 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 09:49
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SZ [13] & KM [107]
Tennessee does suck but we have come a long way from 2004. I do believe that if it weren't for those sleazeball ads, Ford would have won, which is a real shame.
But look at the bright side: Corker isn't Frist. The dark side: Corker couldn't remind me more of Bush. I can't stand that he talks like a freaking hick, and gives support to the "dumb" southerner stereotype. It's just like every time a southerner is on a reality show, they select the one who just fits the sterotype. I would rather they quit selecting homosexuals who fit the stereotype as well, which brings me to another reason Corker won - Gay marriage ban passed in TN 81% - 19%. Ford lost 51% - 49%. This also gets to me, as the pre-election polls had Corker winning by 12 points. I have to think that if the pre-polls were published at this level, Ford would have won as well.
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| | | 112 | Trip Leader
ID: 13961611 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 09:51
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Tree [110] & me [111]:
I had classes with Shuler when I was at UT. He is a dumb freaking hick.
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| | | 113 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 09:55
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Scary post #112.
In 30 minutes, the head of gov't relations department at my big bank will be having a 30-minute teleconference debrief of yesterday's results. He's a former congressman who lost a senatorial race a few years back. It'll be interesting to get his spin as he is a republican, but our CEO is a very actively involved democrat.
I'll let you know what he says...
- walk
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| | | 114 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 09:56
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Aaaaaaaaaah, thanks for the clarification on the potential Virginia senatorial re-count, Tree.
- walk
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| | | 115 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 10:37
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I had classes with Shuler when I was at UT. He is a dumb freaking hick.
(appended:...with more money in the bank can I'll likely ever have.)
back on topic:
katie is semi "nervous" over the looming prospect of Speaker Pelosi. Keeps mumbling about hoping she doesnt "go overboard" liberal etc etc. I said "Like the Reps recently havent gone WAY overboard the other way?" Basically...I think alot of Reps are now in fear, that the Dems will do to them, what they've been doing to the Dems for the past 6 years.
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| | | 116 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 10:38
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HELL YEAH!
What a night! It's been fourteen long years since I've felt this good about a national election. Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid, man that sounds great!
This one is for all y'all haters who have been harping on Howard Dean. All he has done is lead the Democrats from minority status to owning both the House & Senate and the majority of governorships.
This one is for all y'all haters of Nancy Pelosi, the brightest new star in DC. Daughter of a Baltimore mayor, she shined on 60 Minutes and will be shining all over Fox News for years to come.
This one is for prefec, J-Bar and all the other head-in-the-sand naysayers. Right here is a the corner where you can curl up in the fetal position and mumble, right next to Karl Rove. Yeah, we'll call it the "no spin zone". Maybe you can get a few words out of Ann Coulter as she struggles to find a silver lining.
Here's to Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Nebraska. You are deathnell to the Republicans. That party is quickly slinking down in one direction, South.
Pombo lost! McCaskill didn't die in a plane crash! Santorum lost by 18%. What a night indeed!
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| | | 117 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:01
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:)
You wouldn't believe the feeling here in PA, of finally dumping that shill Santorum. I couldn't believe the gall of Bill Bennett on CNN, lamenting that "we've lost a champion of the underclass." What a gasbag. Casey will be a great senator for the Commonwealth.
Grover Nordquist is girding his loins, apparently. Bring it on, I say. Bush's self-declared "mandate" after his slim 2004 victory has turned into a huge mandate for Democrats in 2006.
I watched that 60 minutes interview with Pelosi, and came away impressed. And Dean (with Chuck Schumer) deserves props for a great strategy of excellent candidate recruitment and not conceding any district in any state.
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| | | 118 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:17
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Just saw that Marshall (Georgia 08) is not dead yet! CNN had called it for Collins last night, but it looks like Marshall is ahead by about 2000 votes with 99% reported.
There are 13 House races too close to call or which will result in a runoff (including William Jefferson. Yeech). Some quiet changes overnight, including Jim Gerlach taking a lead against "Liberal Lois" Murphy, and Trauner in WY really tightening up that race.
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| | | 119 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:23
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Yeah, SZ and PD, it is good news, indeed.
My teleconference with our former congressman did not reveal a whole lot of insights that we all have likely read on this news site or that blog. Here's a summary:
The dems will use their subpeona power to investigate the war and questionable business practices (no examples given).
It is expected thhat the dems will eventually prevail in the two undecided Senate races and have control of both the House and Senate, but it could take several weeks for the outcomes of the Senate to be finalized. Even with that control, the 49 seats the republicans will have will give them sufficient fillibuster power to keep any overreaching Democratic proposals from being passed. And of course, there is Bush's veto power.
As stated everywhere, the thinking is that the Dems won mostly cos of the war in Iraq, republican scandals, and an incredibly negative republican environment. The results would have been worse had recent redistricting favoring the republicans not takent place. Starting with the Schiavo case, then Harriet Myers nomination, Katrina incompetence, scandals and the worsening war in Iraq were all listed as factors that alienated the public from the republicans, including moderate republicans from incumbent republicans. Chaffe and Dewine's losses were marked examples.
Newly elected moderate democratics will also keep the democratic agenda in check.
- walk
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| | | 120 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:27
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More stuff, expect the dem's to push the following very quickly in 2007: adopting the 9/11 recommendations, raising the minimum wage, and advancing ethics reforms -- all likely very popular with the public, and thereby making the dems look responsive.
Finally, as a result of investigations into the Iraq war, the levels of acrimony between the two parties will likely remain high.
- walk
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| | | 121 | biliruben
ID: 535193010 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:33
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Maybe there is hope for the American people yet. I was beginning to wonder when we would wake up, look around, and realize our childeren's lives, souls and just about everything else was in the process of being stolen.
It's going to be a long haul to fix the ills our country is now facing.
There is no easy answer in Iraq. We can't simply pull out, I don't think, but we can move towards that goal, and toss the profiteers out on their ear.
Our economy is in shambles, our treasury has been looted, and we are very likely about to drop into a nasty recession. My hope is that the dems can come up with a policy to make it as short, though unfortunately deep and nasty recession as possible, and not inact policies that will attempt to delay the inevitable, thereby pushing off a recovery.
The dems may not have the power or skill to fix it all, but I have faith they won't be actively and intentionally destroying our country for their own cynical gain.
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| | | 122 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:37
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Newly elected moderate democratics will also keep the democratic agenda in check
??? Been listening to too many ads?
Of course, the Democratic agenda is a moderate one. It is only in comparison to the Republican "cloakroom governing" that it appears to be leftist.
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| | | 123 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:45
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Exactly Bili. I don't know how much proactive good they will be able to do with a slim Senate lead and this stubborn administration. But, I'll welcome a little gridlock with open arms compared to this a reckless-spending, Bush-stamping, apathetic bunch currently in power.
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| | | 124 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:48
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I hearya, PD...I was reiterating what I heard on our teleconference this a.m.
- walk
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| | | 126 | katietx
ID: 109442515 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 12:48
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katie is semi "nervous" over the looming prospect of Speaker Pelosi. Keeps mumbling about hoping she doesnt "go overboard" liberal etc etc. I said "Like the Reps recently havent gone WAY overboard the other way?" Basically...I think alot of Reps are now in fear, that the Dems will do to them, what they've been doing to the Dems for the past 6 years.
Not really nervous, but I will be getting the extra large size of Vaseline to use in the coming months. I fear that Ms Pelosi will attempt to strip the military at every available opportunity. And we can certainly look forward to higher taxes. So please no bitching when that happens.
At least TX won't have to worry about Bell, or Grandma. It would have been interesting tho to see what Kinky might have done. ;-)
I'm hoping for both sides to actually begin to work together. What a concept for both!
Rummy will likely go and that's not all together a bad thing.
Nervous? Not really. I have things other than politics to get my nerves on edge.
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| | | 128 | bibA Sustainer
ID: 261028117 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 13:32
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Well, I was just watching the president's press conference. He insists that he will make every effort to reach across the aisle in order to work with the Democrats, and be a leader for all Americans. Possibly if he had actually made efforts such as these over the past six years, his party wouldn't have gone down in such defeat yesterday.
Would be nice to have a leader make an effort to be a leader for everyone - not just his base.
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| | | 129 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 13:34
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but biba, he had a mandate, and i don't mean Jeff Gannon.
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| | | 130 | bibA Sustainer
ID: 261028117 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 13:43
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Yeah, I know. It would just be something special to see someone who actually believed that his mandate included all of the people, and acted on it. Who is the last leader to really believe, AND perform as a leader for everyone? I would think someone among FDR through JFK, including Ike and HST. Maybe no one since, although I would support a case for Carter, but he was just too hated by the right to be able to effectively satisfy them, no matter what he did.
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| | | 131 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 13:56
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I'm actually impressed with Bush for reaching out to Pelosi and Reid, as well as his remarks at the press conference and his selection of the non-contreversial Gates as SOD.
I get the feeling he realizes his PNAC neocon agenda is dead and it makes no sense for his legacy to beat a dead horse.
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| | | 132 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:01
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I'd love to believe you PV but its the same song we heard 6 years ago.
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| | | 133 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:07
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neocon agenda is dead
Hopefully that is exactly what happens to the neo-con agenda, but don't get too excited.
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| | | 134 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:11
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Things were a lot different 6 years ago.
At present, it makes a whole lot of sense for Bush to be cooperative, if for no other reason than to avoid endless investigations initiated by the new Congress.
A re-opening of the 9/11 attacks has to be Bush's greatest fear, beyond war crimes and illegal wiretaps.
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| | | 135 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:14
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i think everyone is hoping the neo-con agenda is dead though i have feeling some of it will still have life with some these 'new' socially conservative dems getting elected.
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| | | 136 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:19
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My girlfriend ia about to start work for Henry Waxman, soon to be chairman of Government Oversight. I'm very envious of that position right now.
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| | | 137 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:31
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Boxman: neocon agenda is dead
Hopefully that is exactly what happens to the neo-con agenda, but don't get too excited.
You do realize that you have been an unwaivering lockstep supporter of the American neocon foreign policy for as long as you have been in this forum, don't you?
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| | | 138 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:34
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boikin: Neocons are all about agressive foreign policy with no regard for international consensus. Even socially conservative Democrats believe that you need to combat international problems internationally. Their distinction as a group is strictly in their foreign policy, which (essentially) views things in terms of black and white, which emphasis on nation building as the means to promoting democracy abroad. I think that we'll soon reject much of the means of the policy, but not the underpinnings of international work.
In other words, the opposite of neocon foreign policy is isolationism, which I don't see us moving towards anytime soon. Many people were for the war in Iraq but turned against it because of the way it was fought.
There are aspects of domestic neocon theory (equal rights for minorities, etc) which are squarely in-line with what Democrats have talked about for decades. That will certainly rise to the top.
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| | | 139 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:36
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You do realize that you have been an unwaivering lockstep supporter of the American neocon foreign policy for as long as you have been in this forum, don't you?
I am for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't approve how they are being run, but I agree with the nobility of what we are doing.
At least you specified "foreign policy".
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| | | 140 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:51
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As far as I know, the execution of the war has little or nothing to do with a specifically neocon agenda.
But you can't support the unilateral, preemptive war in Iraq without supporting the neocon foreign policy agenda. Don't you realize that on foreign policy matters, Boxman, you are a neocon?
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| | | 141 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:54
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Don't you realize that on foreign policy matters, Boxman, you are a neocon?
Does that make every other supporter for wars about freedom (which is why I support the Iraq and Afghanistan wars) neo-cons too?
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| | | 142 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:56
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The war in Afghanistan was not preemptive or unilateral.
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| | | 143 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:57
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I support pre-emptive military action in Darfur (after all, Sudan didn't attack us) to stop the genocide of innocent women and children while training them to defend themselves. That must make me a neo-con too; or does it make me someone who gives a damn about the helpless in this world?
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| | | 144 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:59
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And a simple definition of Iraq as "a war about freedom" doesn't fly.
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| | | 145 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 14:59
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MITH: I don't think that's true (about the running of the war). A (virtually) unilateral attack by the US, followed by a unilateral "nation building" exercise, is right from the neocon playbook.
To be sure there were other problems, most of them falling on Rumsfeld's shoulders. But nation-building in a unilateral war while shrugging off international cooperation is what distinguishes neo-cons as a group, and which also distinguishes Iraq from other wars, including Afghanistan.
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| | | 146 | Boldwin
ID: 189102715 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:06
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MITH
What is your definition of dhimmi then?
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| | | 147 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:08
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And a simple definition of Iraq as "a war about freedom" doesn't fly.
To you it doesn't so that must make it so. Oops, I forgot.
I supported the military action in Kosovo too to end the ethnic cleansing. That's another unilateral attack because Slobadon Milosevic never attacked us. Oh yeah, that's another nail in my "neo-con" coffin.
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| | | 148 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:09
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A "unilateral" attack isn't the same as attacking first. A unilateral attack (or action, to use the current military term) is when you go alone, without real international support.
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| | | 149 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:14
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You and Mith (probably) know exactly where I'm going with those comparisons. You're too smart to not understand what I'm saying.
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| | | 150 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:36
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so Baldwin, you've been quiet.
what's your thoughts on the return of freedom and equality to our political process, what with the Democratic party simply dominating this election?
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| | | 151 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:39
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I do understand, Boxman. I don't know why you are trying to slip out of the neocon label, since your points are exactly the same as theirs.
This has nothing to do with whether I agree with your stand or not (for the record, I've been an interventionist Democrat for a long time). It's is that you are quacking and quacking that you are not a duck.
:)
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| | | 152 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:45
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Perm Dude: I don't know why you are trying to slip out of the neocon label, since your points are exactly the same as theirs.
Because I don't care if a country's main export is oil, drugs or natural gas before I decide that stopping genocide is the right thing to do. That's the difference. I don't look at their export list first. I look at the human situation there.
I believe it's Boldwin that uses the historic phrase "Never again." in relation to genocide. I wholly agree. But we as the most powerful nation on Earth have to decide if we mean "Never again." or "Never again only if they have oil reserves."
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| | | 153 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:53
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Or "never again" if our lack of foresight replaces one set of evils (Saddam's rule) with another (chaos; civil war).
- walk
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| | | 154 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 15:56
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the most powerful nation on Earth have to decide if we mean "Never again." or "Never again only if they have oil reserves." mabye you should add in "only if they are white"
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| | | 155 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 16:00
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Well, I certainly agree with that. But Baldwin hates the neocons, and has his own political philosophical issues to work through, so I wouldn't be looking at him as some kind of model...
Carter was the first president to make human rights a reason to engage with other countries. I think if you even mention his name to Baldwin he'd make a gesture with his hands, turn his head, and spit.
Ineffective in many ways, Carter was on the right track with that.
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| | | 156 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 16:06
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OK true, PD. I wasn't thinking of the execution in terms of unlateralism.
Boldwin I don't understand your point.
Boxman Unilateralism has been an integral part of the American neocon foreign policy of the Bush administration. Kosovo had the full support of NATO and therefore was not a unilateral action. It was also not a preemptive attack because (to my knowledge, anyway) the war was not justified by any claim that Milosevic was a serious threat to American security. The alleged Iraqi threat to American security claimed by the Bush regime is what made the Iraq war a preemptive one and also why it cannot be defined simply as a "war about freedom".
I think you're confusing the ideals of noeconservatism with what you see as the particular agendas of the current administration. Neoconservatism does not necessarily mean an agenda of war profiteering or geopolitical expediency. Baldwin might (and I belive has) argued that such will always follow along the neocon path. But I'll point out that he has heavily supported the Iraq war as well.
I'll offer Ken Adelman's definition of neoconservatism, "the idea of a tough foreign policy on behalf of morality, the idea of using our power for moral good in the world". Thats how a self-described neocon describes his foreign policy philosophy.
Don't be so hung up on the connotations that people attribute to labels. You are what you are.
Tree Lets not jump the gun. The Dems still have to effectively and responsibly legislate. All they've done so far is earn a chance to show they can do it better. I'm optimistic but lets wait until they actually get to work.
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| | | 157 | prefek
ID: 247581719 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 16:07
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Re: Seattle Zen 116
Believe me, that wasn't an Rovian "We win every election" prediction, it was a liberal "oh please don't do this to me again" prediction. I've never been so happy to get it wrong.
By far my most satisfying result of the night: Richard Pombo going down in CA. That guy definitely struck me as one of the shiftier characters in congress, and that's saying something. Just watching Rummy going down and Bush giving concession speeches. The next best thing to Bush losing in '04 is watching the drubbing he's gonna get over the next two years. 25% approval ratings anyone?
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| | | 158 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 16:08
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"the idea of a tough foreign policy on behalf of morality, the idea of using our power for moral good in the world". Thats how a self-described neocon describes his foreign policy philosophy.
So in other words, you're taking his word for it?
The neo-cons use human rights as the trojan horse reason for their actions. If human rights were the real motivating factor, then why aren't we in Africa in droves?
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| | | 159 | Pancho Villa
ID: 366352418 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 16:09
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The genocide in Iraq happened in the late 80s and early 90s.
If a justification for war is to stop genocide, wouldn't it make more sense to do it while it's actually happening, like Bosnia?
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| | | 160 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 16:23
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Boxman So in other words, you're taking his word for it?
The neo-cons use human rights as the trojan horse reason for their actions.
The agenda of a particular group doesn't necessarily define the philosophy they happen to subscribe to.
How about Merriam-Webster: 1 : a former liberal espousing political conservatism 2 : a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and U.S. national interest in international affairs including through military means
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| | | 161 | Boxman
ID: 47922511 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 16:28
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I'd like an answer to my question before we continue.
The neo-cons use human rights as the trojan horse reason for their actions. If human rights were the real motivating factor, then why aren't we in Africa in droves?
You quote a self proclaimed neo-con, I shoot him down as being full of it by citing actual neo-con actions, you are now citing a Merriam-Webster dictionary.
So, how far away are you from a copy of Roget's Thesaurus for your next posting?
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| | | 162 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 17:01
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Lets not jump the gun. The Dems still have to effectively and responsibly legislate. All they've done so far is earn a chance to show they can do it better. I'm optimistic but lets wait until they actually get to work.
fair enough, and i have said in other places pretty much what you said.
change was absolutely necessary.
now, let's see if the dems spend their "political capital" wisely, or fritter it away like Bush and the republicans did.
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| | | 163 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 17:23
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Boxman If human rights were the real motivating factor, then why aren't we in Africa in droves?
1) Understand, self-described libertarians don't always support an exclusively libertarian agenda. Traditional isolationists don't always support an exclusively Isolationist agenda. People who are fiscal conservatives don't always... etc.
You might argue that these hypothetical people aren't what they claim (or what they are known as) if they don't always support the pholosiphy they are associated with. And I can probably go along with that in most cases.
You don't seem willing to acknowledge that there can be a difference between a philosophy and the actions of its subscribers. If we have a bunch of supposed fiscal conservatives in Congress spending money hand over fist it doesn't mean that "fiscal conservativism" endorses a policy of excessive spending. It just means that these particular fiscal conservatives have failed their own stated priorities. For example, strict gun control is, by definition, a very anti-liberal idea, even though much of the liberal American left has gotten behind it.
Or it can be because there are conditions that led them to abandon their preferred agenda. Leading me to...
2) There are limits to what the American people are willing to accept, what our military is capable of and how feasible certain objectives really are. The hunt for global terrorists, committments to the wars and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan and perceived threats in Iran and NK have handcuffed America's ability to make further committments around the world. Believe it or not, there are limits to how much the American military can take on.
Being a neoconservative with the best intentions does not necessarily mean abandoning America's security at home.
3) The nature of politics is that politicians of all stripes will act to preserve their standing in the eyes of their constituants and special interests. Its a rare official who will abandon the future of his job in favor of sticking with his policy. And sometimes this is not a bad thing. For example, I don't know if a war that is not vital to homeland security should be conducted if the country is overwhelmingly opposed to it, even if The President truly believes it is the right and moral thing to do.
Aside from the logistical and resource problems it causes our military and security, marching into Darfur would be political suicide right now for the President and any politicians who support him.
So, how far away are you from a copy of Roget's Thesaurus for your next posting?
Nonsensical hostilities only further expose your ignorance. I haven't seen you attempt to define philosophical neoconservatism.
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| | | 164 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 18:11
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Wow, you really think we went (or even should have) started the war in Iraq to stop Saddam from hurting his people. The compassionate conservatives? The same who want to water torture any suspected terrorists? No freakin way! They went into Iraq for oil, revenge, and maybe some other poor reasons (deflection from bin laden). It's just post-hoc spin that they went in there to liberate the persecuted Iraqis. Those mofos (Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bush) don't care about their freedom or well-being. If they did, they'd actually would have done something since "mission accomplished" to help the poor civilians live with electricity, water, etc. and not getting killed, tortured, bombed, kidnapped and basically be able to walk to work/school without incredible fear of being caught in a civil war related squirmish.
It's pure spin that they republicans say that Iraq was about helping the Iraqis. We replaced one evil (and orderly one at least, who kept the tribal forces at bay) with another (civil war), but our current situation is worse, cos there's end in site...not without like 500,000 more troops, from where, I dunno. And, Saddam at least gave them electricity and some degree of daily security (as long as you did not speak out against the gov't). Now, you may be able to have more constitutional freedom of speech in Iraq(although that is truly not clear given the eye for an eye violence that's happening based on mere membership to one religious sect, militia, district, etc.), but there's no stability whatsoever.
I dunno the off-hand solution, but Thomas Friedman usually has some good ideas. He has an editorial today, coming up at a post near you...
- walk
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| | | 165 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 18:11
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November 8, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist Tolerable or Awful: The Roads Left in Iraq By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
I had to submit this column before knowing the results of yesterday’s election, but here is one thing I know already: this needs to be our last election about Iraq.
The Iraq war has turned into a sucking chest wound for our country — infecting its unity at home and its standing abroad. No one can predict what Iraq will look like 10 years from now. I wish it well. But in the near term, it is clear, nothing that we’ll feel particularly proud of, nothing that we’ll feel justifies the vast expenditure of lives and treasure, is going to come out of Iraq.
Our only two options left today in Iraq are “tolerable” and “awful.” “Good” is no longer on the menu. When you read stories from Iraq saying that all we need to do is get rid of all the police there, get one-third of the soldiers in the Iraqi Army to actually report to duty regularly, and replace all the ministers who are corrupt, you know why “good” is not on the menu anymore.
It’s time to make a final push for the tolerable, and if that fails, quit Iraq and insulate ourselves and our allies from the awful. This can’t go on.
That’s sad. Iraq was always a struggle of hope against history. After 9/11, and the Arab Human Development Report detailing the increasingly dysfunctional Arab-Muslim world — which produces way too many terrorists — we had a real interest in collaborating with Iraqis to try to build one decent, progressive, democratizing society in the heart of the Arab East.
But to succeed we needed to establish a secure order in Iraq and prevent the murderous Sunni/Baathist attacks on Shiites. The Bush team, arriving in Iraq with too few troops and no plans, failed to do either. And therefore the natural tribalism of Iraqis surfaced and the minimal trust between citizens needed to forge a real democracy never emerged. Now we have a tit-for-tat civil war.
The “tolerable” outcome that might be self-sustaining and stable would require reshaping Iraq as a loose federation of predominantly Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni zones. To make even that work, though, would probably require cutting a new deal with Iran and its Iraqi Shiite clients, and Syria and its Sunni Baathist allies, and the Kurds. Iraq would retain a central government in Baghdad, but power and oil income would be more radically decentralized among the different sects. Democracy would be subordinated to stability.
A small U.S. or U.N. force could remain in Iraq to police the boundaries between the three communities and make sure the ongoing violence is contained. To produce even this, though, the U.S. will probably need to set a date and threaten to leave. Otherwise, the parties won’t negotiate seriously.
“Awful” would be carrying out that threat to leave Iraq by a fixed date because Iraqis prove too angry and atomized to reach any deal. The fires of madness now raging in Iraq — people beheading each other, blowing up each other’s mosques — would all intensify.
A U.S. withdrawal under such conditions would be messy and shameful. But when people are that intent on killing each other there’s not much we can do. As bad as we’ve performed in Iraq, what Iraqis have done to each other, and the little that other Muslims have done to stop them, is an even bigger travesty.
Still, we’d need to give visas to Iraqis who wanted to flee the madness; we’d need to give a security umbrella to the Kurds, so that Syria, Turkey or Iran did not invade them if we left; and we’d need to protect Jordan from the spillover.
But there would be some strategic benefits. Syria would have to support the Sunnis in Iraq, and Iran would have to back the Shiites, so these two “allies” would be on opposite sides of the civil war. Iran would also have to manage the chaos in southern Iraq, particularly the Shiite militias, and this would be a permanent migraine for Tehran. U.S. troops would no longer be in range of Iranian retaliation, and therefore would be much freer to confront Iran’s nuclear challenge. The U.S. would also be able to extract itself from the Abu Ghraib/occupation syndrome and could start combating Islamist radicalism by being the best America rather than the worst.
Finally, Iraqi instability would push oil to $80 a barrel. That would mean more people buying hybrid cars and investing in alternative energy, so that we end our dependence on this region sooner.
These are our real choices in Iraq now: tolerable and awful. It’s time we choose. No more expending lives and treasure for nothing good. The only way we can pursue good in the world again is by either shrinking our presence in Iraq, if Iraqis will step up, or leaving entirely, if they won’t.
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| | | 166 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 18:15
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pardon: my rant: "...and basically not be able to walk to work/school without incredible fear of being caught in a civil war related squirmish.
"...cos there's no end in site."
- walk
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| | | 167 | Boxman
ID: 40103386 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 18:58
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Mith: I haven't seen you attempt to define philosophical neoconservatism.
If I was you I would start here and read this too.
On the main page of their own website, they have hot links to various hot spots around the world over, the Middle East, Southeast Asia, but oddly not Africa.
Why not? Do they not care about spreading freedom and democracy and the idea of using our power for moral good in the world like Adelman said?
It cannot be argued that Africa is in dire need of a little moral good right now.
But then again, there is no oil to drill in Darfur, IIRC, Halliburton wouldn't make as much bling bling rebuilding dirt huts,and even W has admitted oil as a reason for Iraq.
''If Zarqawi and [Osama] bin Laden gain control of Iraq, they would create a new training ground for future terrorist attacks," Bush said. ''They'd seize oil fields to fund their ambitions. They could recruit more terrorists by claiming a historic victory over the United States and our coalition."
So resources are the motivator, not spreading freedom and democracy. Clearly it is because the terrorists can gain control of the oil wells that we are in Iraq versus Africa. Never mind the situation in Iraq prior to our arrival versus Africa and never mind the body count across the entire continent of Africa. It's about oil.
That is the difference between my personal view on foreign policy and the neo-cons view. I sincerely believe that we ought to stop genocide if we are capable. They believe we ought to build oil wells, opium dens, and gas pipelines and if people get freedom, well then, it looks pretty on the cover of the newspaper.
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| | | 168 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 19:10
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I've never been so happy to get it wrong.
Ha! Cheers, prefek, happy days are here again.
A good friend of mine worked for the Democratic candidate for open CA 11 seat in Congress in 1992, Patti Garamendi. She looked like a shoe-in, the clown she was running against was some 32 year old son of a developer who had done nothing in his life. My buddy was all set to work for Ms. Garamendi in DC, but the young Pombo managed an upset. What a joke, a sad, sad joke. Won't miss him at all.
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| | | 169 | Perm Dude
ID: 42101488 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 19:41
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Boxman, I think you might be mixing up two different things I said about neocons. I never said neocons use human rights as an excuse to have an agressive foreign policy. I did, however, mention that as a Democratic trait to demonstrate how some of the neocons goals of unilateral foreign policy might not go away completely.
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| | | 171 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 21:23
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Walk Wow, you really think we went (or even should have) started the war in Iraq to stop Saddam from hurting his people.
I believe the administration saw that as one of the various benefits of of what they apparently believed would be a smooth regime change policy in Iraq.
Re the parentheses portion of your question, no. I might have supported the endeavor for that sole purpose if (a) we weren't franticly trying to protect ourselves from another terrorist attack or a wave of terrorist attacks and (b) it was waged with sufficient international support.
Boxman That is the difference between my personal view on foreign policy and the neo-cons view.
I don't have to read the PNAC's mission statement.
And I can't dumb it down for you any further: an ideology is not defined by the actions of the people who subscribe to it.
"The neo-cons view" as you put it (that is, the politics of prominant modern neocons and their organzations) is not necessarily the same as actual, definitive neocon foreign policy ideology. YOUR foreign policy ideology.
Look, I can link to dozens of Christian groups past and present that hold positions commit acts that are quite contrary to Christian ideology. But it is a distortion to define Christianity by these ideologies, just like you distort neoconservatism when you insist on defining it by the actions of certain neoconservatives.
I've repeatedly made this point and you have not even acknowledged it. Until you do so, I'll just assume the concept is over your head and will not respond to you any further on the topic.
But I do have to reply to one other item in post 167:
But then again, there is no oil to drill in Darfur, IIRC, Halliburton wouldn't make as much bling bling rebuilding dirt huts
FYI, there is plenty of oil in Sudan. In fact it is commonly argued that oil is the primary motive of the murderous Janjaweed. That blows a huge hole in your gross misunderstanding of of the topic.
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| | | 172 | walk
ID: 32625228 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 22:33
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Yeah, I dunno, MITH. I know I personally was not in favor of that decision at the time, and then it was spun after the fact that we were liberting a people from a horrid regime. Not sufficient to start a war.
More currently and funly: "Democrats got the Sentate, Democrats got the Senate, the Democrats got the Senate, I'm so happy." (with spongebob's second season tune in my head).
checks & balances.
- walk
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| | | 173 | KM
ID: 319311512 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 22:40
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I'm almost giddy thinking about this moment. Ok, I'm definitely giddy.
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| | | 174 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 23:24
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Walk it was spun after the fact that we were liberting a people from a horrid regime.
That's not exactly true. The primary justification early on was the alleged imminant threat posed by Iraq. But the liberation of the oppressed Iraqi people was at least a secondary issue.
Here's The White House's A Decade of Deception and Defiance, the background paper for bush's Sept '02 appeal to the UN General Assembly to gain support for what would become Resolution 1441 (5 months before the start of the war). Check the 3rd Chapter, which deals specifically with Hussein's human rights abuses.
And from Bush's address to the UN General Assembly that month If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all illicit trade outside the oil-for-food program. It will accept U.N. administration of funds from that program, to ensure that the money is used fairly and promptly for the benefit of the Iraqi people.
If all these steps are taken, it will signal a new openness and accountability in Iraq. And it could open the prospect of the United Nations helping to build a government that represents all Iraqis -- a government based on respect for human rights, economic liberty, and internationally supervised elections.
The United States has no quarrel with the Iraqi people; they've suffered too long in silent captivity. Liberty for the Iraqi people is a great moral cause, and a great strategic goal. The people of Iraq deserve it; the security of all nations requires it. Free societies do not intimidate through cruelty and conquest, and open societies do not threaten the world with mass murder. The United States supports political and economic liberty in a unified Iraq. It certainly wasn't the centerpiece of the endeavor at the time. The administration knew they needed to scare us to garner support. But Iraqi oppression was a part of the package from very early on, if not the very beginning, and long before the invasion.
And please don't misunderstand this to think I believe human rights was a primary motivator for administration. If it we were there because The White House really cared about the Iraqi people, we would have tried much harder and more earnestly to help them - and to help them help themselves.
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| | | 175 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 23:34
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And even here at Rotoguru as far back as July of 2002 there was discussion of the liberation of the Iraqi people. That justification for war in Iraq was definitely in the public discourse at that time. Though I'll not ethat it did not make Madman's list of primary reasons in post 1.
As I said, they couldn't make it the primary reason at the time since we were still very shaken less than a year removed from 9/11.
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| | | 176 | Tree
ID: 41103995 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 06:41
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yea, i mean, the whole "we'll be greeted as liberators" thing has been the butt of jokes for awhile now. along with the whole WMD fiasco, i remember those being the two primary reasons we used to invade iraq.
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| | | 177 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 09:18
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Understood, MITH #174 -- it was part of the package from early on, but you don't believe they earnestly believed it, but they used it as the pitch. I did not realize that it was part of the pre-sell, and also very much agree that they were not truly interested in that part of the package.
- walk
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| | | 178 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 09:45
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November 9, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist Ms. Speaker and Other Trends By BOB HERBERT
Sometimes you can actually feel the winds of history blowing.
During a post-election party at a seafood restaurant in Harlem on Tuesday night, someone in the crush of people around the veteran Congressman Charles Rangel asked if it was safe to start calling him “Mr. Chairman.” It was a little after 10:30 and a light rain was falling outside.
In Washington, Karl Rove was getting ready to more or less formally break the news to President Bush that control of the House was gone. (The two men were already sitting on the secret that Donald Rumsfeld would soon be gone, too.)
Also in Washington, Nancy Pelosi, the 66-year-old grandmother who had been portrayed as some kind of raving San Francisco radical in countless Republican campaign ads, began accepting the hugs and kisses of relatives and close friends as one Republican seat after another fell to the Democrats.
The George W. Bush era, which will ultimately be seen as a fear-induced anomaly in American history, all but breathed its last on Tuesday night. It will be replaced by a new, less fearful and more hopeful period, led by a cast of characters that is astonishingly diverse by American historical standards.
As the soon-to-be chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, with its oversight of such crucial matters as tax policy, Social Security and Medicare, Mr. Rangel, who is 76 (“I’ve stopped buying green bananas”), will become one of the most powerful African-Americans ever to sit in Congress.
Ms. Pelosi, as speaker of the House (second in line to the presidency, behind the vice president), will be the most powerful woman ever to sit in Congress. While these are important firsts, what seems more important is that it is starting to seem normal to have ethnic minorities and women holding — or seriously contending for — the highest offices in the land.
On Tuesday night, as Mr. Rangel and Ms. Pelosi were finally getting the news that the Democrats had taken control of the House, Deval Patrick was already celebrating his historic election as the first black governor of Massachusetts. The banner headline in The Boston Globe yesterday was: “It’s Patrick in a Romp.”
Not so long ago, these achievements were just about inconceivable. The winds of history are blowing a gale, and the landscape is seriously changing.
There will be 16 women in the Senate next year. The leading Democratic candidate for the presidency in 2008 is Hillary Rodham Clinton and the person most talked about recently as a threat to her nomination is Barack Obama.
Even the defeat of Harold Ford, who was vying for the seat held by the retiring Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, carried important kernels of hope for a more tolerant America. That a black candidate could mount a serious run at all in Tennessee was remarkable. A racist television ad was apparently effective in turning some voters away from Mr. Ford, but he still came within three percentage points of winning.
And there didn’t seem to be much evidence that white voters lied to pollsters about whether they would vote for Mr. Ford, a phenomenon that has occurred in other high-profile races where pre-election polls showed black candidates getting more votes than they actually tallied on Election Day.
President Bush deserves credit for making it easier for minorities and women to reach the heights of public service in the U.S. Whatever one thinks of Mr. Bush’s policies, the appointment of individuals like Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice to some of the highest posts in his administration helped normalize the idea of blacks and women serving in such high offices. People get used to it, the way they got used to seeing blacks and women as anchors on television.
Charlie Rangel smiled when the gentleman asked if it was O.K. to call him Mr. Chairman. “I think so,” he said, a little wary but also a little proud.
These are not radicals, just normal, talented people stepping into very high-powered positions.
How normal? Well, Nancy Pelosi’s daughter, Alexandra, who lives in New York, is due to have Ms. Pelosi’s sixth grandchild at any moment. When Ms. Pelosi’s phone rang early yesterday morning, an aide had to wake her. “Did we have the baby?” she asked.
No, she was told. It was the president on the line, calling with his congratulations.
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| | | 179 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 09:46
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November 9, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist The Middle Muscles In By DAVID BROOKS
For decades, moderates have been the cowardly lions of American politics. You’d see them quivering in the corner as the anti-establishment left exchanged culture war mortar fire with the anti-establishment right. You’d see them passed over and dissed as the parties mobilized their bases and played to their primary voters.
Well, somebody’s been on steroids, because on Tuesday the muscular middle took control of America. Say goodbye to the era of Rovian base mobilization. Say goodbye to the era of conservative dominance that began in 1980. On Tuesday, 47 percent of the voters were self-described moderates, according to exit polls, and they asserted their power by voting for the Democrats in landslide proportions.
About a year ago, these angry moderates lost confidence in Republican rule. The tens of millions of dollars spent since then — the ads, the robocalls, the microtargeting — did nothing to change that basic decision.
Their disaffection with the G.O.P. was not philosophical. It was about competence and accountability. It was about the accumulation of Rumsfeld, Katrina, Abramoff, the bridge to nowhere and the failure to quarantine Mark Foley. Bill Clinton captured the electorate’s central complaint about the G.O.P.: “They can’t run anything right.”
So voters kicked out Republicans but did not swing to the left. For the most part they exchanged moderate Republicans for conservative Democrats. It was a great day for the centrist Joe Lieberman, who defeated the scion of the Daily Kos net roots, Ned Lamont. It was a great day for anti-abortion Democrats like Bob Casey and probably for pro-gun Democrats like Jim Webb. It was a great day for conservative Democrats like Heath Shuler in North Carolina and Brad Ellsworth in Indiana.
It was even a good day for some moderate Republicans, like Chris Shays in Connecticut, Deborah Pryce in Ohio and Arnold Schwarzenegger in California, who held on because they are independent.
It was a terrible day for anti-immigration restrictionists on the right of the G.O.P., like J.D. Hayworth and Randy Graf in Arizona.
If you wanted to pick out a stereotypical swing voter in this election, it would be a white evangelical suburban office park mom in a blue state suburb. She’s part of the one-third of white evangelicals who voted Democratic this year, as did 20 percent of self-described conservatives. She supported the Iraq war once but believes it has been conducted terribly. She doesn’t have a lot of faith in government generally — 54 percent of voters believe government interferes too much, while only 37 percent want it to do more, according to a recent CNN survey — but she does think government should be able to accomplish its core missions.
She embodies the message of E. J. Dionne’s 1991 book, “Why Americans Hate Politics,” which argues that Americans are sick of symbolic politics, dying ideologies and false choices. Most of all, she’s angry that politicians behave in ways that would be unacceptable in every realm of her life, and she thinks they’re endangering her country.
In some ways, this election reminds me of the 1974 Democratic sweep. The Republicans have screwed up. Democrats have surged in. But the result leads not to a liberal tide but to Jimmy Carter, who in 1976 ran as a conservative anti-political reformer who won on fiscal discipline and with the support of Pat Robertson.
This election didn’t define a new era, but it marks the end of an old one. If Democrats are going to take advantage of their victory, they will have to do two things. They will have to show they have not been taken over by their bloggers or their economic nationalists, who will alienate them from the suburban office park moms. Second, they’ll have to come up with ideas as big as the problems we face. Their current platform consists of small-bore tax credits and foreign policy vagaries about, say, “redoubling” our efforts to get Osama bin Laden. (Why not retripling or requadrupling?)
Realignments are achieved by parties that define big new approaches to problems (see F.D.R.’s Commonwealth Club speech), and neither party has done that yet. In the meantime, if I were a Democrat I’d be like Lee Hamilton, the former Indiana congressman and serial commission member. The country is hungering for leaders like him: open-minded, unassuming centrists who are interested in government more than politics. If the Democrats are smart, this could be the beginning of a new Hamiltonian age.
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| | | 180 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 09:46
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November 9, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist A Come-to-Daddy Moment By MAUREEN DOWD
Poppy Bush and James Baker gave Sonny the presidency to play with and he broke it. So now they’re taking it back.
They are dragging W. away from those reckless older guys who have been such a bad influence and getting him some new minders who are a lot more practical.
In a scene that might be called “Murder on the Oval Express,” Rummy turned up dead with so many knives in him that it’s impossible to say who actually finished off the man billed as Washington’s most skilled infighter. (Poppy? Scowcroft? Baker? Laura? Condi? The Silver Fox? Retired generals? Serving generals? Future generals? Troops returning to Iraq for the umpteenth time without a decent strategy? Democrats? Republicans? Joe Lieberman?)
The defense chief got hung out to dry before Saddam got hung. The president and Karl Rove, underestimating the public’s hunger for change or overestimating the loyalty of a fed-up base, did not ice Rummy in time to save the Senate from teetering Democratic. But once Sonny managed to heedlessly dynamite the Republican majority — as well as the Middle East, the Atlantic alliance and the U.S. Army — then Bush Inc., the family firm that snatched the presidency for W. in 2000, had to step in. Two trusted members of the Bush 41 war council, Mr. Baker and Robert Gates, have been dispatched to discipline the delinquent juvenile and extricate him from the mother of all messes.
Mr. Gates, already on Mr. Baker’s “How Do We Get Sonny Out of Deep Doo Doo in Iraq?” study group, left his job protecting 41’s papers at Texas A&M to return to Washington and pry the fingers of Poppy’s old nemesis, Rummy, off the Pentagon.
“They had to bring in someone from the old gang,” said someone from the old gang. “That has to make Junior uneasy. With Bob, the door is opened again to 41 and Baker and Brent.”
W. had no choice but to make an Oedipal U-turn. He couldn’t let Nancy Pelosi subpoena the cranky Rummy for hearings on Iraq. “He’s not exactly Mr. Charming or Mr. Truthful, and he’d be on TV saying something stupid,” said a Bush 41 official. “Bob can just go up to the Hill and say: ‘I don’t know. I wasn’t there when that happened.’ ”
Bob Gates, his friends say, had been worried about the belligerent, arrogant, ideological style of Rummy & Cheney from the start. He fretted at the way W.’s so-called foreign policy “dream team” — including his old staffer and fellow Soviet expert Condi — made it up as they went along, even though that had been their complaint about the Clinton foreign policy team. A realpolitik advocate like his mentor, General Scowcroft, he was critical of a linear, moralizing style that disdained nuance, demoted diplomacy and inflated villains. In 2004, he publicly questioned the administration’s approach to Iran.
While Vice went off to a corner to lick his wounds, W. was forced to do his best imitation of his dad yesterday, talking about “bipartisan outreach,” “people have spoken,” blah-blah-blah — after he’d been out on the trail saying that electing Democrats would mean that “the terrorists win and America loses.”
“I share a large part of the responsibility” for the “thumpin’ ” of Republicans, he told reporters. Actually, he gets full responsibility.
W. has stopped talking about democracy as a standard of success in Iraq; yesterday, he said that Iraq had to “govern itself, sustain itself and defend itself.”
He was asked if his surprise at the election results showed he was out of touch with Americans. “I thought when it was all said and done,” he replied, “the American people would understand the importance of taxes and the importance of security.”
So it was just that the American people were too dumb to understand? W. also managed to bash Vietnam vets, saying that this war isn’t similar because there’s a volunteer army, so “the troops understand the consequences of Iraq in the global war on terror.” Is that why W. stayed out of Vietnam? Because he understood it?
An ashen Rummy was also condescending during his uncomfortable tableau with W. and Bob Gates in the Oval Office, implying that he was dumped because Americans just didn’t “comprehend” what was going on in Iraq. Actually, Rummy, we get it. You don’t get it.
“Baker’s no fool,” a Bush 41 official said. “He wasn’t going to go out there with a plan for Iraq and have Rummy shoot it down. He wanted a receptive audience. Everyone had to be on the same page before the plan is unveiled.”
They don’t call him the Velvet Hammer for nothing. R.I.P., Rummy.
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| | | 181 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 10:22
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November 9, 2006 Op-Ed Contributor After the Thumpin’ By WILLIAM SAFIRE Washington
WHY all the glum faces?” President Bush asked at the opening of yesterday’s news conference.
Though the assembled reporters were hardly glum, conservatives of every stripe can console themselves by considering the limited scope of the Democrats’ midterm sweep.
Despite the pervasive weariness with the war and the high tide of irritation at Bush’s steadfastness; despite the general disgust at the policy paralysis and ethical laxity in the wake of muscle-bound one-party control — the result was only the average loss of House and Senate seats of the party in power midway in the second term of a president.
A political shakeup every dozen years is a necessary cathartic for the two-party system. What’s more, the rightward cast of many Democrats in the freshman class is hardly bad news for conservativism. And the heartening victory of Joe Lieberman over the angry far left in liberal Connecticut augurs a renewal of a brief period of bipartisanship at the water’s edge.
Where does our renewed two-party nation go from here?
First, leadership is never weakened by a little humility. After what he called “the thumpin’,” the president showed he got the voters’ message on Iraq: “I recognize that many Americans voted last night to register their displeasure with the lack of progress being made there.” But in acknowledging that “they cast their vote for a new direction,” he didn’t wring his hands: “The people have spoken and now it’s time to move on.”
Months ago, he had made provision for that “new direction” response — a phrase acceptable to hawks provided the direction is not out, quick — in the post-election report to be made by James Baker and Lee Hamilton’s Iraq study group. The report should give cover to increased pressure on elected Iraqi leaders to confront the urgent needs of nationhood.
By placing Robert “Fresh Eyes” Gates, a former C.I.A. chief, on that panel, Bush paved the way for Donald Rumsfeld to absorb the need of opposition politicians for bureaucratic punishment. The loyal SecDef’s resignation after the poll results was Bush’s act of contrition.
Now the president should take the Democratic leaders up on their fine post-election expressions of bipartisanship. He’s headed to Asia for an economic meeting in Hanoi. In its lame-duck session beginning next week, Congress should pass the $67 million earmark to Vietnam called for by Bush primarily for AIDS treatment. Then he should seize the initiative to get some cooperation on domestic progress during the final days of the outgoing, unlamented 109th Congress. In addition to the usual budgetary housekeeping between Thanksgiving and Christmas, both parties should make a concerted effort to deal with the most doable urgent domestic need: to resolve the fears of 12 million Hispanic “illegals” living in the United States.
Bush has already proposed a comprehensive compromise: a guest worker program with earnable citizenship for those here now, as well as a border fence to stop the influx of Mexicans. But Republicans — fearful of nativist voters shouting “no amnesty” — passed only the harsh half, and that unfunded fence is a joke. Now Bush, with many Democrats already supporting his approach, should get recalcitrant Republicans to pass his fair-minded immigration package. It would be a test of both new Republican discipline and Democrats’ sincerity on bipartisanship.
The window of bipartisan compromise can also fit a minimum wage increase tied to inheritance tax reduction; energy drilling tied to mileage standards and alternative fuels subsidy. But the window won’t be open long. That’s because the committees of the 110th Congress will be headed by the liberal Old Bulls eager to pass “one-house bills” useful only to provide hearings and make headlines.
Committee chairmen like Charles Rangel of Ways and Means, John Dingell of Energy and Commerce, Barney Frank of Financial Services and others will crowd the airwaves with hearings grilling contractors and torturing accused torturers.
After a few months of this posturing, a newly emboldened Bush, emulating F.D.R.’s derision of the isolationists “Martin, Barton and Fish,” will be moved to denounce “Rangel, Dingell and Frank.” This will be the signal for new Republican leaders, like Mike Pence of Indiana, to take up the tactic of Harry Truman by denouncing “the do-nothing 110th Congress.” At the same time, as the 2008 primaries loom, the Trumanesque Bush will measure his reduction of troops in Iraq by the ability of the Iraqis to take over their own defense.
That’s when the new Democratic majority will suffer great stress. Senator Hillary Clinton evoked “the vital, dynamic center” in her victory speech, and Representative Rahm Emanuel was the model of non-hubristic responsibility during the delighted Democratic deluge. But it’s hard to imagine Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, Kerry-Gore-Edwards campaigners and the whole loser left holding still into the snows of New Hampshire.
Into that incipient split of the new Congressional majority will march John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney and the other conservative, internationalist hopes. So cheer up, my fellow right-wingers, especially those of you who have grown too accustomed to winning every election night. Sometimes we have to suffer a loud, corrective slap before readying the political counterpunch.
William Safire, a former Times Op-Ed columnist, is chairman of the Dana Foundation.
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| | | 182 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 10:31
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great posts Walk.
i liked the line in the first one: The George W. Bush era, which will ultimately be seen as a fear-induced anomaly in American history, all but breathed its last on Tuesday night. It will be replaced by a new, less fearful and more hopeful period, led by a cast of characters that is astonishingly diverse by American historical standards.
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| | | 183 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 10:55
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Thanks. I know many of these articles are just not available due to the NYTimes Select thing.
Personally, I really enjoyed the harsh Dowd article (I like her clever rantings), and laud the diversity article from Herbert (himself an African American) with his acknowledgements of Bush's own accomplishments in this area. Saffire's article is like "disturbing" in a horror movie kinda way, but likely (?), and Brooks, the other conservative, gives a nice balanced view, IMO.
- walk
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| | | 185 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 11:09
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The George W. Bush era, which will ultimately be seen as a fear-induced anomaly in American history, all but breathed its last on Tuesday night. It will be replaced by a new, less fearful and more hopeful period, led by a cast of characters that is astonishingly diverse by American historical standards.
I've said before and will continue to maintain, the "Bush Era" compares directly IMHO, to the "McCarthy Era" only worse. Worse due to the conjecture, that this is what may well have happened had McCarthy sat in the WH.
How normal? Well, Nancy Pelosi’s daughter, Alexandra, who lives in New York, is due to have Ms. Pelosi’s sixth grandchild at any moment. When Ms. Pelosi’s phone rang early yesterday morning, an aide had to wake her. “Did we have the baby?” she asked.
No, she was told. It was the president on the line, calling with his congratulations.
Loved that little tidbit.
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| | | 186 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 11:10
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Walk 174 I'll add one more note.
I don't mind admitting that I was duped early on into supporting the President's march toward war in Iraq. I had soured on it by the time it happened in March of '03 but I very much supported the buildup and tough talk in late 2002 and very early 2003, siding primarily with the motive of forcing the UN to act on its Resolutions. I felt that Bush had earned my support with a evenly tempered and well managed campaign in Afghanistan. When I realized that regime change through war had become inevitable before it was truly our last option and without broad international support to boot, I quickly began to back off.
And as always, thanks for the columns.
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| | | 187 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 11:49
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Gotcha MITH. Understood on your views and thinking. My personal sissy-boy tendencies (fighting is really bad and should always be avoided, unless it's self-defense or like an action movie/video game -- tongue in cheek) led me to my own pre-Iraq war views -- "no, don't do it, they've not done enough to warrant an invasion." Yet, I was in favor of the Kosovo bombing campaign cos that ethnic cleansing stuff was way outta control -- and we had a combined NATO approach. For Iraq, I did not like this U.S.-only approach based on "what if" scenarios and now that you've brought it to my light, arbitary liberation of people (since there are many others that qualify).
I guess the counter argument would be that there were a lot of legit reasons to invade Iraq, all stacked up together, that exceeded the threshhold to invade (violations of UN agreements, potential WMDs, evil dictator, unstable oil country, post-9/11 caution).
Back to me, while I've never been in combat, war seems like just the worst of all real hell's, and just has to be the last, last, last resort (however that is defined, which varies by person).
- walk
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| | | 188 | Perm Dude
ID: 20104498 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 12:31
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| | | 190 | Perm Dude
ID: 20104498 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 13:12
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Yeah, I did see that.
Sometimes people start really grasping at straws, trying to paint the opposition as anti-anything good. I think we saw that here in Pennsylvania, and it got a little loopy toward the end when nothing would stick to Casey.
Casey is a genuinely nice guy, very straight shooter, honest to a fault. Santorum, in looking at Casey, saw what he himself would be if he hadn't sold his soul.
I must admit to rather enjoying reading The Corner on NRO. Santorum was a real god to them.
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| | | 191 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 13:17
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"the greater good!"
- walk
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| | | 193 | prefek
ID: 247581719 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 15:21
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If Courtney's (D) lead holds in CT-02 the Dems will have grabbed 29 seats from the GOP. The rest of the undeclared house races all look like narrow wins for the various incumbents.
Anyone care to weigh in on the TX-23 House race? Henry Bonilla (R) won 60147 votes, which at 48.6% is just shy of the 50% he needed to avoid a runoff. 6 Democrats combined to win 60258 votes. If the result holds, Bonilla will face Ciro Rodriguez (D) in a runoff. Any chance the Dems take this to make it an even 30 gains?
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| | | 194 | Toral
ID: 52621719 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 17:32
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193 If Courtney's (D) lead holds in CT-02 the Dems will have grabbed 29 seats from the GOP. The rest of the undeclared house races all look like narrow wins for the various incumbents.
43 "House: DEMS +29
Senate: R 50 D 50
Reps win Tenn, Vir; Dems win Mo, NJ"
I felt conflicted about VA, and changed that predik to Allen on E-Day. It did turn out to be the closest race in the nation. Just like in 2004 when I got only the nation's closest race (Iowa) wrong.
I only wish that this year I could have used my powers for good, not evil.
Toral
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| | | 195 | Perm Dude
ID: 441045916 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 17:45
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A split government is good, Toral.
Put another way, getting those who would bloat government, expand government reach into private lives, and refuse to be bound by ethical rules out of office is good.
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| | | 196 | Tree
ID: 491039916 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 17:47
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btw - one of these guys is one of the new reps from NY State. can you guess which one?
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| | | 197 | J-Bar
ID: 371044917 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 18:57
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guess, second from left
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| | | 198 | Perm Dude
ID: 441045916 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 20:09
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The man in the middle, of course. John Hall, baby!
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| | | 200 | Tree
ID: 331039920 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 21:40
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from one of the all time worst record covers, all the way to the House baby!
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| | | 201 | KM
ID: 319311512 Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 23:35
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It's a good thing he shaved the beard. People might have thought they were voting for this guy.
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| | | 202 | Boxman
ID: 40103386 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 15:15
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Mith: I haven't seen you attempt to define philosophical neoconservatism.
then
I don't have to read the PNAC's mission statement.
Enough said. Enjoy Fantasy Land.
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| | | 203 | Perm Dude
ID: 131052118 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 15:21
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ROFL!! Is that all you can say, after getting thumped?
Enjoy reality.
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| | | 204 | Boxman
ID: 40103386 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 15:28
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ROFL!! Is that all you can say, after getting thumped?
The only thumping going on was the marble inside Mith's head. There's a lot more to say, but after reading Mith's own ignorance, even after I provided him the opportunity to look at the Project For A New American Century and he refused to look at it.
You can bring the horse to water, but you can't make him _ _ _ _ _.
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| | | 205 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 15:37
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^ another fine example of pointing one finger at someone else, while 3 of your own are pointing right back at you.
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| | | 206 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 16:36
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Well this explains Boxman's position. Boxman firmly believes that an organization (such as PMAC) that subscribes to a particular ideology (such as neoconservatism) will effectively define that ideology through the pursuit of their own agenda.
So, according to this "Boxman-logic" (heehee) Christianity dictates that God hates America and has punished us for our sins through 9/11 and the space shuttle explosion. After all, the Westboro Baptist Church are Christians and through knowing about Fred Phelps and his organization's agenda, we learn all we need to know about Christianity!
Boy, this Boxman logic (heehee) sure makes the world a simple place to understand. I wonder what other philosophies of various complexities we can whittle down to nitty-gritty with this approach.
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| | | 207 | Boxman
ID: 40103386 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 16:55
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So, according to this "Boxman-logic" (heehee) Christianity dictates that God hates America and has punished us for our sins through 9/11 and the space shuttle explosion. After all, the Westboro Baptist Church are Christians and through knowing about Fred Phelps and his organization's agenda, we learn all we need to know about Christianity!
Do you not see the difference between doctrine being teached by the pope (in this case, the President and his cohorts who lead the neo-conservative movement and are still in power) versus a fringe group of Christian radicals?
Then do tell, if neo-cons are a fringe group, why aren't there the dominant amount of conservatives from yester-year (results of the recent elections notwithstanding) and instead we are left with the big government "conservative" types?
On page 63 of
this document, it says, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event-like a new Pearl Harbor.
What happened on 9/11/01?
Look at the signatories to this document. Names like Wolfowitz and Libby crop up on there amoungst others. All heavily directly involved with the Bush Administration.
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| | | 209 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 17:13
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Do you not see the difference between doctrine being teached by the pope (in this case, the President and his cohorts who lead the neo-conservative movement and are still in power) versus a fringe group of Christian radicals?
Oh, my mistake!
By all means, substitute the Roman Catholic Church for Westboro Baptist Church. So we know that Christianity dictates that Christians must absolve themselves of their sins through the Holy Sacriment of Reconcilliation, which must be heard and performed by a Cathoilc Priest who received the Holy Sacriment of Holy Orders from a Catholic Bishop.
Then do tell, if neo-cons are a fringe group...
I've never made a case that neo-cons are a fringe group. I've also never denied that the Bush administration foreign policy has carried out a largely neocon agenda. You are all over the place and it is clear that you haven't bothered to take the time to consider my points at all. Do yourself a favor and stop and read through my posts on the topic again.
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| | | 210 | Perm Dude
ID: 131052118 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 17:15
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Boxman: Don't even try to drag the Catholics into this. The Roman Catholic Church has been, far and away, one of the biggest critics of the war.
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| | | 211 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 17:17
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I also fail to see what that particular excerpt regarding the transformation and modernization of the American military has to do with the discussion or your gross misinterpretations of it and it subjects to this point.
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| | | 212 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 17:21
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PD, Its very hard to tell but I don't believe he intends any operational association between the American foreign policy and the RCC. I think he just cites the Vatican as an authority on Christian ideology, analagous to PMAC, arguing that The Westboro Baptist Church is not a fair comparison to PMAC.
But maybe I'm wrong. Like I said he's all over the place.
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| | | 213 | Boxman
ID: 40103386 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 18:37
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I've never made a case that neo-cons are a fringe group.
You implicated such when you indicated that via the Westboro Baptist Church we learn all we need to know about Christianity. When you made that comparison with your sarcasm in #206, that is precisely what you did.
are all over the place and it is clear that you haven't bothered to take the time to consider my points at all.
I have read your points and you have now resorted to condensation and insults, so clearly, in my mind it is "case closed". You now have nothing to offer other than flaccid and meaningless insults.
It is disturbing that you take that quote from Adelman ("the idea of a tough foreign policy on behalf of morality, the idea of using our power for moral good in the world") when it contradicts everything the neoconservatives have done while in power. I imagine you taking the bait in Nazi Germany as well.
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| | | 214 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 18:55
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Not really wanting to wade into a firestorm, but I have to ask Box...
How does the quote you reference in 212, contradict anything the neoconservatives have done while in power? It certainly appears to this viewer, to affirm what they have done vs contradict it.
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| | | 215 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 19:23
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I've never made a case that neo-cons are a fringe group.
You implicated such when you indicated that via the Westboro Baptist Church we learn all we need to know about Christianity. When you made that comparison with your sarcasm in #206, that is precisely what you did.
No. Neocons are obviously not a fringe group. You are totally lost. I wasn't citing the Westboro Baptists as a fringe group. I cited them as an organization that subscribes to a particular ideology - analogous to PMAC. Their level of prominance had nothing to do with the point.
This should have been pathetically obvious to you when, after you clamored on about them being a fringe group, I subbed in the Rman Catholic Church as an equally apt example. But you obviously still can't figure it out.
I have to wonder whether you really are this thick and stupid or simply prefer to play it off in favor of admitting that your own ideals for American foreign policy are very much neoconservative.
If so, whatever gets you through the day.
I have read your points and you have now resorted to condensation and insults, so clearly, in my mind it is "case closed".
The case that is your mind was closed long before you ever started posting here. The hostilities started you. And you're the one who has substituted them for logic.
I'll leave you with the point I have repeatedly made:
An encompassing ideology is not accurately defined by the specific agendas of people who happen to subscribe to it.
If you really do lack the intelligence to understand the meaning of that statement I don't know how to say it any more simply for you. All I know is that its been my point for two days now and through all of your posts on the matter you haven't acknowledged it.
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| | | 216 | Boxman
ID: 40103386 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 22:10
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I am not dense enough to not comprehend that there are bastardizers of every ideology on this planet.
What I am telling you is that the neoconservative "concern" over human rights is a trojan horse, an excuse to accomplish other more nefarious goals. Reconcile the signatories to their documents, versus their ideal state (according to Adelman), versus what they have actually done. It cannot be done. You do not preach about being for "human rights", when the advisors to the President (who are signatories to PNAC documentation), do not trumpet and act upon the same ideology that they subscribe to.
Are there other neoconservative groups in the world that truly care about Darfur for example? Probably. I'll leave that to you to actually find them. But with no power what good are they? I am referring to the power elite prominent figureheads in the neoconservative movement that are currently running this country. Like how the pope is the figurehead for Catholics, the President and his administration is the figurehead for the neoconservative movement.
Sarge: How does the quote you reference in 212, contradict anything the neoconservatives have done while in power? It certainly appears to this viewer, to affirm what they have done vs contradict it.
I judge the neoconservative movement based on the actions of those in power who subscribe to that ideology. They are the ones setting the agenda for the group and promoting the core beliefs. Just because someone or a group says they are for something does not actually mean they are for something. This is politics after all. Judge them based on their actions, not their words.
The PMAC lays it all out. Please take the couple minutes and glance over their plans for this country via their website. Especially the .pdf file I have referenced. Then look at the signatories for that plan which was written in 2000 and look at their relationships to this administration.
Then look at the world around you. We are into roughly year 6 of full bore neoconservative foreign policy which has not led the world anywhere close to the ideological state quoted by Mith's source (Adelman). It has taken us in quite the opposite direction in fact, when we, are the ones doing things that do in fact violate human rights. So not only are the neoconservatives in power not acting upon an alleged core belief, but they are going in the exact opposite direction with running shoes on. Therefore, I charge that human rights was never a goal of the main neoconservative movement to begin with.
They care about expanding the American sphere of influence and imperialistic goals.
Look no further than what the President says and what is being done. Would human rights hawks permit opium dens, wars for oil, Abu Ghraib, and Guantanamo? And who is whispering into the ear of the President these past six years? Those same people who are part of an organization who out of one side of their mouth say they are for human rights, but then out the other side of their mouth state that we need another Pearl Harbor as an excuse to buildup the military.
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| | | 217 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 374522815 Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 23:29
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I am not dense enough to not comprehend that there are bastardizers of every ideology on this planet.
Why it has taken you since Wednesday to show an inkling of understanding of that point I have no idea.
You have insisted on defining neconservatism by the prominent neoconservatives.
Neoconservatism is an ideology. Often, ideologies are used and/or exploited to pursue selfish or sinister or (at the very least) ulterior agendas. This has obviously (imo) been the case in our Iraq war.
I am not a neoconservative. Regarding foreign policy matters, I believe the ideology is flawed. I believe means by which neoconservatism seeks to realize ideals are often not worth the sacrifices they require. Occasionally I can go along with such an endeavor. Kosovo, for those who align it with neocon principles, may be an exception, for example. And the sacrifices there were not great, relatively speaking. And there is notable dispute over whether there is a specific neocon domestic ideology.
Anyway, when I call you a neocon, Boxman, I do not necessarily associate you with the dubious agendas of the people who run and influence our foreign policy. I refer specifically to the ideology associated with the term, itself, summed succinctly by the definitions I provided earlier in this thread. Whether you believe current prominent "neocons" share those ideals at heart is irrelevant. The philosophy is what it is and how its ideals are warped by neocons today does not change that. As I've also said, you do yourself a disservice in succumbing to the connotations attributed to labels. Such things are always in a flux. The meanings of words only change when we allow them to.
Do I believe Adelman's definition is his true or sole agenda? Almost certainly not. If it is, he's been sorely had by the political apparatus of which he is a part, and I don't think that's very likely. But I've not spoken on his personal agenda. Perhaps now you're coming around to see the difference.
I'll add one more thing. While I haven't accused you in this thread of subscribing to the more devious agendas of the architects and administrators of our Iraq war (even as you support it), I will note that in the past you have shown yourself an explicit apologist of the war profiteering that has greatly contributed to failing the liberation of Iraq. To your credit, your more recent posts have backed far away from your previously apologist stance, but as someone who makes an effort to own up to my own mistakes, I will hold you to your words, as well.
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| | | 218 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 13:52
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Re 194
It's not hard to say Dems +29 on Tuesday, Toral, when the answer was available on Monday in post 13. I believe that Courtney (D) will win CN 2 and Barrow (D) will hold on in GA 12 for 231 D seats, or Dems +30.
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| | | 219 | walk
ID: 259313119 Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 14:33
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Frank Rich's editorial from today's NYT. Awesome. ************** November 12, 2006 Op-Ed Columnist 2006: The Year of the ‘Macaca’ By FRANK RICH
OF course, the “thumpin’ ” was all about Iraq. But let us not forget Katrina. It was the collision of the twin White House calamities in August 2005 that foretold the collapse of the presidency of George W. Bush.
Back then, the full measure of the man finally snapped into focus for most Americans, sending his poll numbers into the 30s for the first time. The country saw that the president who had spurned a grieving wartime mother camping out in the sweltering heat of Crawford was the same guy who had been unable to recognize the depth of the suffering in New Orleans’s fetid Superdome. This brand of leadership was not the “compassionate conservatism” that had been sold in all those photo ops with African-American schoolchildren. This was callous conservatism, if not just plain mean.
It’s the kind of conservatism that remains silent when Rush Limbaugh does a mocking impersonation of Michael J. Fox’s Parkinson’s symptoms to score partisan points. It’s the kind of conservatism that talks of humane immigration reform but looks the other way when candidates demonize foreigners as predatory animals. It’s the kind of conservatism that pays lip service to “tolerance” but stalls for days before taking down a campaign ad caricaturing an African-American candidate as a sexual magnet for white women.
This kind of politics is now officially out of fashion. Harold Ford did lose his race in Tennessee, but by less than three points in a region that has not sent a black man to the Senate since Reconstruction. Only 36 years old and hugely talented, he will rise again even as the last vestiges of Jim Crow tactics continue to fade and Willie Horton ads countenanced by a national political party join the Bush dynasty in history’s dustbin.
Elsewhere, the 2006 returns more often than not confirmed that Americans, Republicans and Democrats alike, are far better people than this cynical White House takes them for. This election was not a rebuke merely of the reckless fiasco in Iraq but also of the divisive ideology that had come to define the Bush-Rove-DeLay era. This was the year that Americans said a decisive no to the politics of “macaca” just as firmly as they did to pre-emptive war and Congressional corruption.
For all of Mr. Limbaugh’s supposed clout, his nasty efforts did not defeat the ballot measure supporting stem-cell research in his native state, Missouri. The measure squeaked through, helping the Democratic senatorial candidate knock out the Republican incumbent. (The other stem-cell advocates endorsed by Mr. Fox in campaign ads, in Maryland and Wisconsin, also won.) Arizona voters, despite their proximity to the Mexican border, defeated two of the crudest immigrant-bashing demagogues running for Congress, including one who ran an ad depicting immigrants menacing a JonBenet Ramsey look-alike. (Reasserting its Goldwater conservative roots, Arizona also appears to be the first state to reject an amendment banning same-sex marriage.) Nationwide, the Republican share of the Hispanic vote fell from 44 percent in 2004 to 29 percent this year. Hispanics aren’t buying Mr. Bush’s broken-Spanish shtick anymore; they saw that the president, despite his nuanced take on immigration, never stood up forcefully to the nativists in his own camp when it counted most, in an election year.
But for those who’ve been sickened by the Bush-Rove brand of politics, surely the happiest result of 2006 was saved for last: Jim Webb’s ousting of Senator George Allen in Virginia. It is all too fitting that this race would be the one that put the Democrats over the top in the Senate. Mr. Allen was the slickest form of Bush-Rove conservative, complete with a strategist who’d helped orchestrate the Swift Boating of John Kerry. Mr. Allen was on a fast track to carry that banner into the White House once Mr. Bush was gone. His demise was so sudden and so unlikely that it seems like a fairy tale come true.
As recently as April 2005, hard as it is to believe now, Mr. Allen was chosen in a National Journal survey of Beltway insiders as the most likely Republican presidential nominee in 2008. Political pros saw him as a cross between Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush whose “affable” conservatism and (contrived) good-old-boy persona were catnip to voters. His Senate campaign this year was a mere formality; he began with a double-digit lead.
That all ended famously on Aug. 11, when Mr. Allen, appearing before a crowd of white supporters in rural Virginia, insulted a 20-year-old Webb campaign worker of Indian descent who was tracking him with a video camera. After belittling the dark-skinned man as “macaca, or whatever his name is,” Mr. Allen added, “Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia.”
The moment became a signature cultural event of the political year because the Webb campaign posted the video clip on YouTube.com, the wildly popular site that most politicians, to their peril, had not yet heard about from their children. Unlike unedited bloggorhea, which can take longer to slog through than Old Media print, YouTube is all video snippets all the time; the one-minute macaca clip spread through the national body politic like a rabid virus. Nonetheless it took more than a week for Mr. Allen to recognize the magnitude of the problem and apologize to the object of his ridicule. Then he compounded the damage by making a fool of himself on camera once more, this time angrily denying what proved to be accurate speculation that his mother was a closeted Jew. It was a Mel Gibson meltdown that couldn’t be blamed on the bottle.
Mr. Allen has a history of racial insensitivity. He used to display a Confederate flag in his living room and, bizarrely enough, a noose in his office for sentimental reasons that he could never satisfactorily explain. His defense in the macaca incident was that he had no idea that the word, the term for a genus of monkey, had any racial connotation. But even if he were telling the truth — even if Mr. Allen were not a racist — his non-macaca words were just as damning. “Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia” was unmistakably meant to demean the young man as an unwashed immigrant, whatever his race. It was a typical example of the us-versus-them stridency that has defined the truculent Bush-Rove fearmongering: you’re either with us or you’re a traitor, possibly with the terrorists.
As it happened, the “macaca” who provoked the senator’s self-destruction, S. R. Sidarth, was not an immigrant but the son of immigrants. He was born in Washington’s Virginia suburbs to well-off parents (his father is a mortgage broker) and is the high-achieving graduate of a magnet high school, a tournament chess player, a former intern for Joe Lieberman, a devoted member of his faith (Hindu) and, currently, a senior at the University of Virginia. He is even a football jock like Mr. Allen. In other words, he is an exemplary young American who didn’t need to be “welcomed” to his native country by anyone. The Sidarths are typical of the families who have abetted the rapid growth of northern Virginia in recent years, much as immigrants have always built and renewed our nation. They, not Mr. Allen with his nostalgia for the Confederate “heritage,” are America’s future. It is indeed just such northern Virginians who have been tinting the once reliably red commonwealth purple.
Though the senator’s behavior was toxic, the Bush-Rove establishment rewarded it. Its auxiliaries from talk radio, the blogosphere and the Wall Street Journal opinion page echoed the Allen campaign’s complaint that the incident was inflated by the news media, especially The Washington Post. Once it became clear that Mr. Allen was in serious trouble, conservative pundits mainly faulted him for running an “awful campaign,” not for being an awful person.
The macaca incident had resonance beyond Virginia not just because it was a hit on YouTube. It came to stand for 2006 as a whole because it was synergistic with a national Republican campaign that made a fetish of warning that a Congress run by Democrats would have committee chairmen who are black (Charles Rangel) or gay (Barney Frank), and a middle-aged woman not in the Stepford mold of Laura Bush as speaker. In this context, Mr. Allen’s defeat was poetic justice: the perfect epitaph for an era in which Mr. Rove systematically exploited the narrowest prejudices of the Republican base, pitting Americans of differing identities in cockfights for power and profit, all in the name of “faith.”
Perhaps the most interesting finding in the exit polls Tuesday was that the base did turn out for Mr. Rove: white evangelicals voted in roughly the same numbers as in 2004, and 71 percent of them voted Republican, hardly a mass desertion from the 78 percent of last time. But his party was routed anyway. It was the end of the road for the boy genius and his can’t-miss strategy that Washington sycophants predicted could lead to a permanent Republican majority.
What a week this was! Here’s to the voters of both parties who drove a stake into the heart of our political darkness. If you’ll forgive me for paraphrasing George Allen: Welcome back, everyone, to the world of real America.
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| | | 220 | R9
ID: 99392020 Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 15:06
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#219, Nice. :)
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| | | 221 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Mon, Nov 13, 2006, 10:10
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Baldwin - you've still yet to really chime in on this election that saw the Dems sweep into power.
i'm still curious as to your thoughts and opinions on these winds of change.
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| | | 222 | prefek
ID: 247581719 Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 16:57
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A [highly un-scientific] look at poll performances in Senate Election 2006:
Based on the data posted yesterday on www.electoral-vote.com, I decided to analyze how all the major pollsters did for future reference. Positive numbers mean favoring Republicans, negative mean favoring Democrats. Shown are the average bias and standard deviations across all the states polled. I abbreviated the pollsters to fit it neatly into a chart. Average is an averaged index of all the polls, such as the one they use at electoral-vote.
All States
NAME GLLP MSDX POLMX QNPC RASM RS2K SUSA ZGBY AVERAGE BIAS 1.02 2.34 -0.79 0.17 2.69 4.00 1.35 5.34 2.94 STDV 5.80 4.21 4.643 7.03 6.46 3.87 5.02 9.23 6.11
Battleground States (CT, MD, MO, MT, NJ, OH, PA, RI, TN and VA)
NAME GLLP MSDX PLMX QNPC RASM RS2K SVUSA ZGBY AVERAGE BIAS 0.02 4.13 0.15 3.25 1.32 2.33 -0.13 1.62 1.32 STDV 5.16 3.41 3.94 3.40 2.74 0.58 4.975 5.35 2.26
Maybe others with statistical backgrounds could do a better job of analysis than me. Zogby fared poorly, with his polls all showing varying degrees of republican bias. Research 200, Rasmussen and Mason Dixon all showed around a 2 point Republican bias. Polimetrix fared very well, having very small margins, along with Gallup and Survey USA.
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| | | 223 | Tree
ID: 1411442914 Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 16:17
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so, does anyone know what did happen to Baldwin? he's barely been around since the elections...did he crawl into a cave to lick his wounds to never return?
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| | | 224 | Perm Dude
ID: 5810382010 Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 17:39
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He's having trouble getting out of the suit...
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| | | 225 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 17:52
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Doing his best to make good on his promise to retire, I'm sure.
It'll last until his next bout with insomnia. It'll be 3:50am and he'll have read the latest Coulter column for the 6th time and completed his latest computer game.
He'll reluctantly pull down the favorites menu, come across a post he can't help but respond to and call Tree a moron.
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| | | 226 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 49848118 Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 17:55
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Thats my only 2006 prediction in this thread.
OK one more:
The NY Jets will go 5-1 over the last 6 games and finish 10-6 on the season.
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| | | 227 | Sludge
ID: 16109168 Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 18:14
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RE: 222
Looks good. The only thing I would caution is not to go saying that "Zogby fared poorly" while "Polimetrix fared very well, having very small margins, along with Gallup and Survey USA" without qualifying the statements a bit. Browsing through the data, it appeared that Zogby conducted no polls less than a week before the election, while Polimetrix's were conducted but three days before the election. It would perhaps be better to compare the polls spewed forth by a pollster to other polls conducted at or near the same time.
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| | | 228 | prefek
ID: 4510572917 Wed, Dec 13, 2006, 15:24
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Ciro Rodriguez (D) Upsets Henry Bonilla (R) in TX-23 Runoff
This brings the total number of Dem pickups in the house to an even 30. Barring events in FL-13, the 110th congress will have 233 Dems and 202 Reps, an incrementally bigger majority than the GOP had in the 209th. Polls had been showing Rodriguez down, but closing, in the run-up to the election. My guess is a general dip in GOP support after the general election, and improved prospects of political clout with a Democrat proved a large factor.
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| | | 229 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 19:00
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For some reason a couple of people who have written to me in the last few days, on matters unrelated to this post, have mentioned in passing that the Democrats won a “narrow victory” in 2006. Apparently this is conventional wisdom, what you get from reading or watching a lot of commentary. So I thought it might be worth pointing out that it’s absolutely not true.
In fact, it’s quite strange how the magnitude of the Democratic victory has been downplayed. After the 1994 election, the cover of Time showed a charging elephant, and the headline read “GOP stampede.” Indeed, the GOP had won an impressive victory: in House races, Republicans had a 7 percentage point lead in the two-party vote.
In 2006, Time’s cover was much more subdued; two overlapping circles, and the headline “The center is the new place to be.” You might assume that this was because the Democrats barely eked out a victory. In fact, Democrats had an 8.5 percentage point lead, substantially bigger than the GOP win in 1994. Also, the new Democratic majority in the House isn’t just larger than any the Republicans achieved over their 12-year reign; it’s much more solidly progressive than their pre-1994 majority.
It’s just one election, and may not represent a trend (although I think it does.) But the 2006 election was, in fact, a progressive landslide. Paul Krugman
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