Forum: pol
Page 2845
Subject: AG Gonzales Must Go


  Posted by: Perm Dude - [3621299] Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 10:51

This guy is about as bad as Ashcroft.

US Attorney Scandal

298 of 375 investigations of officials target Democrats

More as I find come across them. Is there a bigger threat to law in the US than AG Gonzales? He pretty much lies to Congress, tells others he simply can't do his job because of all these congressional subpeanas, ignores letters from Congress asking him to provide the information he said he'd provide, and so on.
 
1walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 11:06
Here-here! Freakin enabler of constitutional chaos!
 
2Perm Dude
      ID: 3621299
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 11:08
How severe partisanship at the Executive Level weakens democracy
 
3sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 13:13
FBI violated rules established by Patriot Act

Is there a law left, this admin hasnt violated in some way?
 
4walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 13:30
March 9, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Department of Injustice
By PAUL KRUGMAN


For those of us living in the Garden State, the growing scandal over the firing of federal prosecutors immediately brought to mind the subpoenas that Chris Christie, the former Bush “Pioneer” who is now the U.S. attorney for New Jersey, issued two months before the 2006 election — and the way news of the subpoenas was quickly leaked to local news media.

The subpoenas were issued in connection with allegations of corruption on the part of Senator Bob Menendez, a Democrat who seemed to be facing a close race at the time. Those allegations appeared, on their face, to be convoluted and unconvincing, and Mr. Menendez claimed that both the investigation and the leaks were politically motivated.

Mr. Christie’s actions might have been all aboveboard. But given what we’ve learned about the pressure placed on federal prosecutors to pursue dubious investigations of Democrats, Mr. Menendez’s claims of persecution now seem quite plausible.

In fact, it’s becoming clear that the politicization of the Justice Department was a key component of the Bush administration’s attempt to create a permanent Republican lock on power. Bear in mind that if Mr. Menendez had lost, the G.O.P. would still control the Senate.

For now, the nation’s focus is on the eight federal prosecutors fired by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. In January, Mr. Gonzales told the Senate Judiciary Committee, under oath, that he “would never, ever make a change in a United States attorney for political reasons.” But it’s already clear that he did indeed dismiss all eight prosecutors for political reasons — some because they wouldn’t use their offices to provide electoral help to the G.O.P., and the others probably because they refused to soft-pedal investigations of corrupt Republicans.

In the last few days we’ve also learned that Republican members of Congress called prosecutors to pressure them on politically charged cases, even though doing so seems unethical and possibly illegal.

The bigger scandal, however, almost surely involves prosecutors still in office. The Gonzales Eight were fired because they wouldn’t go along with the Bush administration’s politicization of justice. But statistical evidence suggests that many other prosecutors decided to protect their jobs or further their careers by doing what the administration wanted them to do: harass Democrats while turning a blind eye to Republican malfeasance.

Donald Shields and John Cragan, two professors of communication, have compiled a database of investigations and/or indictments of candidates and elected officials by U.S. attorneys since the Bush administration came to power. Of the 375 cases they identified, 10 involved independents, 67 involved Republicans, and 298 involved Democrats. The main source of this partisan tilt was a huge disparity in investigations of local politicians, in which Democrats were seven times as likely as Republicans to face Justice Department scrutiny.

How can this have been happening without a national uproar? The authors explain: “We believe that this tremendous disparity is politically motivated and it occurs because the local (non-statewide and non-Congressional) investigations occur under the radar of a diligent national press. Each instance is treated by a local beat reporter as an isolated case that is only of local interest.”

And let’s not forget that Karl Rove’s candidates have a history of benefiting from conveniently timed federal investigations. Last year Molly Ivins reminded her readers of a curious pattern during Mr. Rove’s time in Texas: “In election years, there always seemed to be an F.B.I. investigation of some sitting Democrat either announced or leaked to the press. After the election was over, the allegations often vanished.”

Fortunately, Mr. Rove’s smear-and-fear tactics fell short last November. I say fortunately, because without Democrats in control of Congress, able to hold hearings and issue subpoenas, the prosecutor purge would probably have become yet another suppressed Bush-era scandal — a huge abuse of power that somehow never became front-page news.

Before the midterm election, I wrote that what the election was really about could be summed up in two words: subpoena power. Well, the Democrats now have that power, and the hearings on the prosecutor purge look like the shape of things to come.

In the months ahead, we’ll hear a lot about what’s really been going on these past six years. And I predict that we’ll learn about abuses of power that would have made Richard Nixon green with envy.
 
5Perm Dude
      ID: 3621299
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 13:35
The overreach of the Executive Branch will be Bush's legacy. This is why I think Rudy, despite his more "liberal" attitudes on social issues, will be even worse.
 
6walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 13:53
Agreed on both counts, PD, and that is my greatest concern with Rudy (the tyrant). We cannot have another tyrant. I dunno if the repubs are going to rally around Rudy though. I don't think so. I think they will convince Newt to run and rally around him instead. They will lose.

- walk
 
7walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 13:54
Or, in a bizarre parallel universe, the current conservative admin will repeal the amendment that says ya gotta be born here to be Prez, and then rally behind Aaaaaaahnold, who they would glom onto cos he's strong, successful and brash -- even with all the things he's done contrary to their platform of late.
 
8sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 13:57
Rove trying to shape a positive legacy for Bush

Talk about futile efforts. I hold no doubt at all, that historians 100 years from now, will be scratching their heads in utter disbelief at the outcome of the last Presidential election. I see shrubs admin, going down as one of the darkest political periods in US history.

Re Rudy...katie and I have talked about this possibility, and I think neither of us is comfortable with another "MY way or the hi-way" style of leadership in the WH.
 
9Perm Dude
      ID: 3621299
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:24
I dunno, walk. Most Republicans are more liberal (particularly on social issues) than the Republican Party's trail has been lately, and Rudy seems a good match for the rank-and-file. In addition, the theocrats who seem to have a lot of say in the matter seem capable of an almost-unhuman amount of self-delusion. I don't think Rudy many faults (both real and imagined) will be a barrier to their support if it comes between Rudy and a Democrat.

I almost wish they put up someone like Romney or Gingrich in order to finally break the strangelhold the theocrats have had on the GOP for the last 8 years or so.
 
10walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:32
I see what you're saying PD, makes sense. I sure hope Rudy does not win the erection though.

Sarge33rd. Agreed. Bush will go down in history as one of the worst ever. He truly has no strong presidential skills. It'll be an interesting history lesson about the making of an american president, and the tactics perfected by Rove to machinate victories, and the tactics used by Cheney to create such executive power, and breaches (and wars). This is one of the reasons why I am interested in Obama. I just feel like his principles and wisdom are far different than the political motivations we see currently, and that I also fear with Hillary.

This US attorney firing thing is just so transparently partisan though. I am so glad the Dems have the subpeona power to hold AG and Bush accountable (to what degree? I dunno). At least get it in the light. Rove freakin makes a speech saying: "Clinton got rid of all 93 US Attorneys, so did we...no difference. The President has the authority, it was within his rights." Totally, and intentionally (cos dumb, this guy aint) omitting the discrepancies between the in-term firings, and the coincidental events associated with the Attorneys' "performance," and the fact that only 3 of these mofos have been fired since way back when. The arrogance. I think Domenici may have to resign...he'll die a slow death politically at 74 otherwise (but it'd be so cool if he were expelled...it'd take 2/3 of Senate to do it, so no way).

- walk
 
11Perm Dude
      ID: 3621299
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:37
Yeah. Rove also "forgot" to mention that Bush did the same thing when he came into office. Indeed, it is typical for a new Administration to request the resignations of all appointees in all areas of the Executive Branch.
 
12walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:40
Right, right, right. I left the "Bush did it, too," clearing house part out of my rant cos I was like freaking thinking faster than I can type (and I can type pretty fast). This administration is just evil, IMO. I dunno, maybe Bush is not evil, just totally dumb and misguided, but Cheney is evil. I guess at the end of the day, I am one of the very baddies who Arianna would have had to have censored at HuffPost, cos even though I did not post, I thought: "Dang! I wish he had bought it!" when Cheney was almost blown up in Afghanistan. That is bad, but he's a bad evil man.

- walk
 
13sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:48
Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld...all cut from the same utterly arrogant "whatever it takes to advance ME", cloth.
 
14Perm Dude
      ID: 3621299
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:49
I think Bush is just morally lazy. It comes from being a fundamentalist, I think. When your God does all your thinking, you don't have to.

It is just so ironic that he came into office telling people he isn't like Clinton. If an intern blow job is all it takes to get us back to peace and prosperity I think that's a small price to pay....
 
15walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:57
Mayan Priests Purify Site After Bush Visit
 
16Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:58
If an intern blow job is all it takes to get us back to peace and prosperity I think that's a small price to pay....

i agree. let me be the first to line up and recieve that intern blow job, all in the name of peace and prosperity.

the things i do for my country...
 
17walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 14:59
Funny, #14, PD, all the while the most powerful guy in the Republican congress who is spearheading the perjury associated with the blow job is doing the same nasty! Aaaaaaah! Well, starting a foolish war and bankrupting our country are much more acceptable follies.

- walk
 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 3621299
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 15:11
Remember walk: Newt is from Georgia. It is quite likely that there was no oral involved there--I believe it was still illegal in Georgia at the time, even between consenting adults.

Good old fashion missionary.

Did you notice that Newt's first marriage was to his old teacher? That guy just creeps me out.
 
19walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 09, 2007, 15:14
Funny again, PD. Teacher? And now it's too some babe 20 years younger that he was dating while married to his, I think, second wife. I dunno. He's another whack job. I guess Rudy is at least up front about his bizarro love life, and has a personal life that is somewhat more consistent with his social-political views. I'm just rationalizing his rationalizations, but I cannot have another theocracy after Bush. At least with Rudy, it'd just be a regular old vanilla autocracy. And Hillary, a politocracy.

- walk
 
20walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 14:31
Memo to Gonzales

By Eugene Robinson
Friday, March 16, 2007; A21


Was it arrogance or ignorance that led the Bush administration to think it could pull off what looks, walks and quacks like a transparently political decision to fire those eight U.S. attorneys? A good deal of both, I'm guessing.

Actually, I take that back. No guesswork is needed.

Arrogance has been the most consistent hallmark of George W. Bush's presidency. His administration's simple philosophy of government has been consistent: We can do any damn thing we want.

We can invade Iraq. We can blow off the Geneva Conventions. We can listen to your private phone calls, Mr. and Ms. America, and we can read your private e-mails, too. We can arrest anybody we want and hold them as long as we want, and we don't even have to tell them why, much less file formal charges or hold a trial. We can even defy the laws of science -- or at least ignore the ones that annoy us, such as that whole "greenhouse effect" thing. We can use the troops for photo ops when they come back from war grievously wounded and then basically forget about them.

And we don't have to explain ourselves, either. The nerve of anyone to even ask us. Don't you people understand that asking impertinent questions of the White House is exactly what Osama bin Laden wants you to do?

Okay, but even given this kind of world-class arrogance, it's still pretty amazing that barely a month after the nation took a two-by-four to the administration's head in November's midterm election -- delivering a not-so-gentle reminder that the president works for us, not vice versa -- the White House still plowed ahead with a long-brewing plot to fire a few designated federal prosecutors who couldn't seem to get with the "any damn thing we want" program.

Just to be clear, this kind of selective dismissal of a group of U.S. attorneys is highly unusual. It's bad enough that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales misled Congress about the firings; the specific truths his falsehoods obscured -- that the White House was involved in the firings and that partisan political motivations may have been involved -- are much worse.

We know from e-mail messages -- why do people put this stuff in e-mail, which has the half-life of nuclear waste? -- that political "loyalty" to the White House was a factor in deciding which prosecutors to fire. We also know that the White House passed along to the Justice Department the complaints of Republicans in Congress and other party pooh-bahs that allegations of voter fraud against Democrats were not being pursued aggressively enough.

All that adds up to arrogance. Here's where the ignorance comes in: Gonzales accepts "responsibility" without accepting the blame that comes with it, since he could hardly be expected to know what was going on in the whole vast Justice Department.

I've got to admit, I felt a twinge of sympathy for Gonzales when, bravely and cluelessly, he faced the television cameras Tuesday and vowed to find out why he had given Congress categorical assurances that were not remotely true. He bears the burden of being the first Latino attorney general -- the first member of the nation's largest minority to hold such a senior position in the U.S. government. I have a sense of what that must mean to him, a sense of why he is so determined not to resign, why he made a point of declaring that he didn't get where he is by giving up.

But it was just a twinge. Then I remembered that Gonzales was the author of the notorious "torture memo" that greenlighted interrogation techniques for war-on-terrorism detainees that are designed to induce excruciating physical and psychological pain. Gonzales wrote of a "new paradigm" in which there is no conflict between American values and "inhuman treatment" of prisoners.

Determined to keep his job, Gonzales said he will leave no stone unturned in discovering why he said what he said to Congress about the U.S. attorney firings. I've got an idea: He can order the FBI to issue a " national security letter" and then rummage through his private communications on an unlawful fishing expedition, as has apparently happened to many thousands of Americans -- on Gonzales's watch.

If that fails, Gonzales can declare himself an enemy combatant, have himself whisked away in the dead of night to some secret prison and allow himself to be "waterboarded" until he finally sputters out the truth.

If the man is willing to practice what he preaches, he can stay. Otherwise, he's got to go.
 
21Perm Dude
      ID: 422221521
      Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 14:55
The Case Against Gonzalez
 
22walk
      ID: 259313119
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 18:43
Bush vows to resist Senate Subpeonas of Staff

I guess what really bothers me is when Bush says: "There is no indication that anyone did anything wrong here." Like there are tons of "indications"...! And that he (natch, Fox move) accuses the Dems of being partisan, when this entire investigation is about the Bush admin making justice decisions on a partisan basis. Oy!

- walk
 
23Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 20:16
Another made up scandal, Wow, the Dems are really grasping at straws. The fact is at the beginning of almost every Presidency, Attorney Generals are changed for political appointments, the only difference here is he did it mid-term. The only mistake here is thinking Democrats could work under a Republican adminstration with out trying to sabotage them, Plame, the ones giving top secret plans to the NY Times etc...
 
24Tree
      ID: 192502016
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 20:22
lol. "made up scandal"

been reading Tom DeLay much? how beautiful it was for him to talk about invented scandals.

Jag - do a bit more research on the issue. heck, we've discussed it in great detail on this board, read a few more threads to start with.
 
25Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 20:33
I did read many of the posts, most were cut and paste articles by far-left editorialists. Come on Walk, I could learn more by watching Barney and Friends then reading a regurgitated Krugman rant.
 
26Perm Dude
      ID: 51230208
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 20:35
We've been pretty clear about the differences between changes at the beginning of an Administration and what is going on here. You can wave your hands at it, but the lies from the Administration won't go away.

 
27Tree
      ID: 192502016
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 20:36
earlier in the day, you were funny, and cracking me up to no end Jag.

but your routine got stale fast.
 
28Tree
      ID: 192502016
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 20:46
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


WASHINGTON - A defiant President Bush warned Democrats Tuesday to accept his offer to have top aides testify about the firings of federal prosecutors only privately and not under oath or risk a constitutional showdown from which he would not back down.

Democrats' response to his proposal was swift and firm: They said they would start authorizing subpoenas as soon as Wednesday for the White House aides.

"Testimony should be on the record and under oath. That's the formula for true accountability," said Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.


so, what's Bush got to hide?
 
29Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 20:57
Bush probably has alot to hide, nothing illegal, but politically embarrassing, not illegal unless they lie under oath. Just like Scooter Libby
 
30Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:01
The fact is at the beginning of almost every Presidency, Attorney Generals are changed for political appointments, the only difference here is he did it mid-term.

Well, to be sure you understand, Bush fired all of the incumbant attorneys at the beginning of his term, too. Some hung on for a little while to wrap up cases they were on (otehrs abandoned cases). But understand all of the Clinton era USAs are long gone.

The only mistake here is thinking Democrats could work under a Republican adminstration with out trying to sabotage them

Well, all 8 of the fired US Attorneys were appointed by Bush. At least 5 were Republicans and 2 were independents. I can't find anything on Margaret Chiara's political affiliation.
 
31Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:13
If what you say is true, then I agree.
 
32Tree
      ID: 192502016
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:14
Bush probably has alot to hide, nothing illegal, but politically embarrassing,

so, that's a reason to keep people from testifying under oath?

got it. i'll make a note of that.
 
33Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:30
I am going to have to back off this topic, until I get more info. It looks bad for Bush and I would rather have hernia check-up then agree with Tree.
 
34Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:32
If the scandal is made up, I wonder why Bush refuses to allow White House aides to testify under oath and without a transcript?
If the scandal is made up, why did Kyle Sampson, Gonzales' top aide, resign?
 
35Tree
      ID: 192502016
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:34
I am going to have to back off this topic, until I get more info. It looks bad for Bush and I would rather have hernia check-up then agree with Tree.

so, what you're saying is that you'd rather dig up more insane information that you've spewed elsewhere, than acknowledge Bush might be up to something pretty awful?
 
36Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:44
I am not tied to the hip with Bush. If this is all a power play, I will say so.
 
37R9
      Leader
      ID: 02624472
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 21:49
I'm somewhat new to the scandal. What was the reason given for firing these prosecutors? From what I understand it is rather rare to fire one mid-term like this. Under those circumstances, the reason for the firing (beyond that the AG is 'allowed' to do so) would be rather important, no?
 
38walk
      ID: 259313119
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:02
Kinda wish you had did your research first before just ass-u-ming that the Dems were making up a scandal. There's lots here that were in very poor form, and as MITH and Tree and PD have said, it's been covered at length. Bush is trying to appear defiant, as is his MO, but it just really looks like he's trying to hide something. The emails that have been released, really make these terminations very transparent about efforts to get some Dems and protect some Repubs...it's bad, and I do believe it goes to Bush. Instead, they'll offer up Gonzalez and Meiers.

- walk
 
39Perm Dude
      ID: 51230208
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:06
That's one of the funny things, R9. The reasons, mostly performance reasons, don't make sense. Some were fired for reasona that, a few months before, they were being lauded by the Justice Department for excelling in. Carol Lam, for instance, was fired over her handling of immigration cases. Yet half her office was devoted to handling immigration cases, and her performance reviews were excellent across the board.

David Iglesias was fired after refusing to press charges against New Mexico Demcrats before the election, and received phone calls from Rep Helen Wilson and Sen Pete Domenici asking him to press charges.

John McKay was sacked for not filing bogus voter fraud charges.

USAG Timeline
 
40Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:16
More on the Lam firing.

The Duke signs letter criticizing Lam

Four months after the San Diego United States Attorney's office launched an investigation into whether he had accepted bribes from defense contractors, and little more than a month before he pled guilty to those charges, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) signed on to a letter criticizing U.S. Attorney Carol Lam's "lax" handling of immigration crimes.

The letter, signed by 18 other Republican lawmakers, was sent October 20, 2005. Cunningham pled guilty November 28 to bribery charges and resigned from office.


 
41walk
      ID: 259313119
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:16
Rogue, all from memory, so this is going to be very 80-20: Basically, each of the attorneys were dismissed for different reasons. Some alleged examples are that they were either not aggressive enough in pursuing indictments against some Dems, aggressive enough in indicting some Democratic organizations regarding voter alleged vote fraud, and in the most severe cases, too aggressive indicting Republican officials (Carol Lam in the Southern district of California who actually did wind up resulting in a conviction of a Repulican congressman, White, IIRC). Theeeeeeen, Gonzalez said these dudes were all fired cos of "performance," and they all got mad cos that's their reputation, and they all had favorable performance appraisals mind you, so the fired attorneys spoke out, and then the Justice dept released scores of emails that show that there were some White House involvement in these dismissals, even though AG Gonzalez said the WH was not involved beforehand. Gonzalez said it was all Harriet Miers doing, but some emails clearly show Rove's involvement. Additionally, two Republicans, one Senator from New Mexico (Domenici) and one Congresswoman, called a the US Attorney in New Mexico to ask about some ongoing investigations, and apparently pressued him about them (alleged voter fraud), and this is a big ethics no-no, and this dude, Iglesias, was then dismissed. It's really quite something.

Jag: My pastes of editorials are not meant to inform, but to provide commentary. Links to the news are often made by others...I provide my links to editorials after the news has been out for a while, as commentary. If you need to learn first-time from a copy & pasted op-ed piece, then you are slow, and should not presume this is the original source of news for others.

- walk
 
42Tree
      ID: 192502016
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:22
another related case?

WASHINGTON - Sen. Dianne Feinstein (news, bio, voting record) said Tuesday she wants answers about the departure of the former U.S. attorney in Los Angeles, who resigned last October before the Justice Department's dismissal of eight other U.S. attorneys sparked controversy.

"I have questions about Debra Yang's departure and I can't answer those questions right at this time," Feinstein, D-Calif. and a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, told reporters in response to a question. "Was she asked to resign, and if so, why? We have to ferret that out."
 
43walk
      ID: 259313119
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:24
Cunningham, right. Funny that he signs this letter now..."Hey, you freakin got me thrown in jail, you did a bad job as a USAttorney."

Heather Wilson.

Worst cases were Lam and Iglesias. This is an interesting scandal cos it's Dems coming supporting Republicans who were fired by other Republicans (for not being "Republican enough"), and then Bush calls the subpoenas partisanship! Ha! No, the subpoenas and hearings are efforts to find out who knew what, when, and why, cos these dismissals were apparently very partisan, and unethical, and potentially illegal.

It is very unusual for any US Attorneys to be fired mid-term, but that was just the smoke signal. The 10 different reasons given for the terms, the emails indicating WH involvement when AG Gonzalez originally said there was none, and then in some cases, seemingly apparent cases of retribution, make this one scandal just too much for an administration to cover up without having control of the House and Senate. Bush and Co. just were too arrogant, and went too far. Either way, they are going to look bad on this.

This scandal has actually been festering for months, but really got heated up in the last two weeks. The intensity today is because of Leahy basically saying "we're gonna issue subpoenas," and Bush saying: "I will not let my guys testify." The latter sounds awfully fishy.

- walk
 
44Perm Dude
      ID: 51230208
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:40
The worst part, IMO, is that I don't think the Administration was doing anything particularly insidious. I think that they genuinely didn't see that sacking ADA's in order to get loyal "Bushies" some resume building was a bad thing.

I don't think the whole thing points to more than sheer incompetance and the complete politicization of the justice system by the Administration.
 
45Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 22:48
If the Republicans are going after the Dems on trumped up charges, then that is wrong, just as it was wrong to waste all the tax payers money going after Scooter Libby for a frivilous incident.
 
46walk
      ID: 259313119
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 23:05
The Republicans are not going after Dems...they sacked Republicans who either did not go after Dems, did not protect felelow Republicans who were being investigated, or alleged voter fraud.

Scooter Libby = frivolous incident? That was about retaliation for exposing the fraudulent causes for starting a war (!). How opposite of frivolity do you want? I mean, the only thing that would be credible in this regard would be to say that Cheney and Bush were impeached instead of Libby's conviction, since they were the one's who endorsed the lies about Iraq's WMD (uranium obtained from Niger) to initiate a unilateral war. It's amazingly lame that this Libby thing did not go farther.

But we will impeach for adultery, led by a a Newt engaged in his own adultery, at the same time!

- walk
 
47Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 23:17
Classic!

 
48Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 00:21
Walk, what are you talking about? The entire BS scandal was for outing a clerical secretary, Valerie Plame, which was one of the worse kept secrets on the Hill, it is compared to someone outing that Rosie O'Donnell is fat.
 
49Perm Dude
      ID: 51230208
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 00:24
OK, then. Who knew she was a CIA operative, then? And how?

Worst-kept should mean it won't take you too long to find and post the information. How about not posting again until you have the details?
 
50Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 01:09
PD, do you even remember how this story ends? Armitage is found out to be the one that outed Plame, because he didn't even know it was a secret. He had no axe to grind with Plame or Wilson so the scandal stopped, but before that happen there were probably a 100 posts by the Libs here with undisputed facts that Rove and others were involved. This is a good example why not to take the Libs so called "facts" as the truth.
 
51R9
      Leader
      ID: 02624472
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 01:33
Its really scary how people alter (and sometimes just outright manufacture) facts to fit their whim, and really, really, deep down believe they're telling the truth.

Scary stuff. Ignorance is the enemy.
 
52soxzeitgeist
      ID: 192382022
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 01:37
Plame, a "clerical secretary"? You need to check your facts,
jag. IT A MATTER OF RECORD that due to the nature of
her clandestine work for the CIA, details about her are still
classified. While undercover, she described herself as an "energy
analyst" for the private company Brewster Jennings & Associates,
which the CIA has acknowledged as a front company for them to
run operations through.

It's almost not a challenge debunking your BS.
 
53Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 08:35
Hey- he's doing just fine.
 
54Perm Dude
      ID: 28245217
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 09:47
Jag now wants us to believe that it wasn't a big deal because a different Administration official blew Plame's cover because they were pissed at her husband.

Yikes.
 
55Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 11:20


Turd Blossom subpoenaed.

A House panel on Wednesday approved subpoenas for President Bush's political adviser, Karl Rove and other top White House aides, setting up a constitutional showdown over the firings of eight federal prosecutors.

 
56walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 11:23
I have little to to add about Plamegate that soxzeitgeist, Rogue, MITH and PD have already mentioned. It's pretty well documented that now that Plame was a covert operative with a non-official cover...very risky and high-level. Bashing her and accusing her of getting Wilson to go to Nigeria are the obvious and common tools of the conservative defense -- crush the credibility of the opposition. Almost like scientology our admin.

I have to believe there are persons who have conservative viewpoints who are more well-informed and articulate than Jag. Man, you are either having a really good go at all of us, or you are really a political dunce. I hope it's the former.
 
57Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 11:26
A small but significant shred of the damage done by the Bush Administration is undone in forceful, bipartisan fashion.

93.8% of Senate Republicans and 94% of Senate Dems vote to take back the 120 day limit on interim Federal Prosecutors appointed by the Attorney General.
 
58Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 11:40
55 From my read he (they - incl. Miers and Sampson) have not been subpoenaed yet. "Subpoenas have been approved" by the judiciary sub-committee. I have no idea how significant that measure is.
 
59walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 13:26
March 21, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Why I Was Fired
By DAVID C. IGLESIAS
Albuquerque


WITH this week’s release of more than 3,000 Justice Department e-mail messages about the dismissal of eight federal prosecutors, it seems clear that politics played a role in the ousters.

Of course, as one of the eight, I’ve felt this way for some time. But now that the record is out there in black and white for the rest of the country to see, the argument that we were fired for “performance related” reasons (in the words of Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty) is starting to look more than a little wobbly.

United States attorneys have a long history of being insulated from politics. Although we receive our appointments through the political process (I am a Republican who was recommended by Senator Pete Domenici), we are expected to be apolitical once we are in office. I will never forget John Ashcroft, then the attorney general, telling me during the summer of 2001 that politics should play no role during my tenure. I took that message to heart. Little did I know that I could be fired for not being political.

Politics entered my life with two phone calls that I received last fall, just before the November election. One came from Representative Heather Wilson and the other from Senator Domenici, both Republicans from my state, New Mexico.

Ms. Wilson asked me about sealed indictments pertaining to a politically charged corruption case widely reported in the news media involving local Democrats. Her question instantly put me on guard. Prosecutors may not legally talk about indictments, so I was evasive. Shortly after speaking to Ms. Wilson, I received a call from Senator Domenici at my home. The senator wanted to know whether I was going to file corruption charges — the cases Ms. Wilson had been asking about — before November. When I told him that I didn’t think so, he said, “I am very sorry to hear that,” and the line went dead.

A few weeks after those phone calls, my name was added to a list of United States attorneys who would be asked to resign — even though I had excellent office evaluations, the biggest political corruption prosecutions in New Mexico history, a record number of overall prosecutions and a 95 percent conviction rate. (In one of the documents released this week, I was deemed a “diverse up and comer” in 2004. Two years later I was asked to resign with no reasons given.)

When some of my fired colleagues — Daniel Bogden of Las Vegas; Paul Charlton of Phoenix; H. E. Cummins III of Little Rock, Ark.; Carol Lam of San Diego; and John McKay of Seattle — and I testified before Congress on March 6, a disturbing pattern began to emerge. Not only had we not been insulated from politics, we had apparently been singled out for political reasons. (Among the Justice Department’s released documents is one describing the office of Senator Domenici as being “happy as a clam” that I was fired.)

As this story has unfolded these last few weeks, much has been made of my decision to not prosecute alleged voter fraud in New Mexico. Without the benefit of reviewing evidence gleaned from F.B.I. investigative reports, party officials in my state have said that I should have begun a prosecution. What the critics, who don’t have any experience as prosecutors, have asserted is reprehensible — namely that I should have proceeded without having proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The public has a right to believe that prosecution decisions are made on legal, not political, grounds.

What’s more, their narrative has largely ignored that I was one of just two United States attorneys in the country to create a voter-fraud task force in 2004. Mine was bipartisan, and it included state and local law enforcement and election officials.

After reviewing more than 100 complaints of voter fraud, I felt there was one possible case that should be prosecuted federally. I worked with the F.B.I. and the Justice Department’s public integrity section. As much as I wanted to prosecute the case, I could not overcome evidentiary problems. The Justice Department and the F.B.I. did not disagree with my decision in the end not to prosecute.

Good has already come from this scandal. Yesterday, the Senate voted to overturn a 2006 provision in the Patriot Act that allows the attorney general to appoint indefinite interim United States attorneys. The attorney general’s chief of staff has resigned and been replaced by a respected career federal prosecutor, Chuck Rosenberg. The president and attorney general have admitted that “mistakes were made,” and Mr. Domenici and Ms. Wilson have publicly acknowledged calling me.

President Bush addressed this scandal yesterday. I appreciate his gratitude for my service — this marks the first time I have been thanked. But only a written retraction by the Justice Department setting the record straight regarding my performance would settle the issue for me.

David C. Iglesias was United States attorney for the District of New Mexico from October 2001 through last month.
 
60walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 08:36
March 22, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
A Proper Distinction
By DAVID BROOKS


Thousands of crimes are committed every year, and, given the constraints of time and money, it’s up to prosecutors to decide which ones to pursue.

We’d like to think that prosecutors exercise their discretion with godlike impartiality, but the founders, who had a low but accurate view of human nature, figured that wasn’t possible. They placed the federal prosecutors within the executive branch of government, a political branch. They ordained that prosecutors would be overseen by the attorney general, a political officer.

Since godlike impartiality is probably not possible, the founders figured, at least the prosecutors could be held accountable to the electorate. The founders made prosecutors political appointees.

But the word “political” in this context has two meanings, one philosophic, one partisan. The prosecutors are properly political when their choices are influenced by the policy priorities of elected officeholders. If the president thinks prosecutors should spend more time going after terrorists, prosecutors should follow his lead.

But prosecutors are improperly political if they bow to pressure to protect members of the president’s party or team. Most would agree that Harry Truman was being improperly political when he tried to block the reappointment of Maurice Milligan, a U.S. attorney investigating the Pendergast political machine in Missouri.

The problem is that there is a gray area between these two political roles. People of good faith disagree about whether the Clinton administration behaved improperly in firing almost all of the 93 prosecutors it inherited, in the midst of some high-profile and politically troublesome cases.

Prosecutors, like other professionals, develop a code of honor to help them steer through the gray areas. This code of honor consists of a series of habits and understandings to help individual prosecutors know how to behave when loyalty to the law is in tension with loyalty to the president.

People in well-led agencies are acutely conscious of this sort of honor code. If you work for, say, George Shultz or Robert Rubin, you will have a daily example of how to behave. If you work for some others, your sense of honor will be fuzzy, at best.

When you look at the prosecutors who were fired by the Bush administration, you see some who were fired for proper political reasons and some who were fired for improper ones. Carol Lam seems to have been properly let go because she did not share the president’s priorities on illegal immigration cases. David Iglesias seems to have been improperly let go because he offended some members of the president’s party.

But what’s striking in reading through the Justice Department e-mail messages is that senior people in that agency seem never to have thought about the proper role of politics in their decision-making. They reacted like chickens with their heads cut off when this scandal broke because they could not articulate the differences between a proper political firing and an improper one.

Moreover, they had no coherent sense of honor. Alberto Gonzales apparently never communicated a code of conduct to guide them as they wrestled with various political pressures. That’s a grievous failure of leadership.

The bad behavior has not stopped there. The Democrats, apparently out of legislative ideas after only 11 weeks in the majority, have gone into full scandal mode, professing to be shocked because politics played a role in prosecutorial priorities. They and those on their media food chain have made wild accusations far in advance of the evidence, producing enough cacophonous demagoguery to make rational discussion nearly impossible.

And the White House, instead of trying to restore some proportion, has picked a fight over a transcript. The president says he will allow White House staff to appear before Congress, but not in public, not under oath and not with a transcript. The president apparently expects his supporters to rally behind the sacred cause of No Transcript. In time of war, he’s decided to expend political capital so that his staffers can lie to Congress without legal consequences.

This is a position only a lawyer can love. From compassionate conservatism, we’ve descended to pedantic or legalistic conservatism.

As often happens when you have a government unencumbered by adult supervision, this affair is now spiraling down to the partisan depths. It will take on a life of its own and muddy everyone who touches it. But it all could have been prevented with a few distinctions about the proper role of politics, and a little sense of honor.
 
61walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 08:38
I dunno about Brooks' conclusion that Carol Lam was let go properly. She's the one that indicted Cunningham, and it appears that she may been let go as retribution (I say this lightly). I also thought that I read that she has received favorable reviews about her efforts to go after illegal immigration.

- walk
 
62Perm Dude
      ID: 19229227
      Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 10:23
Uh, David? You know that AGs are in the Executive Branch because that's the branch charged with enforcing the laws, yes? It isn't because humans are weak-willed.

By that logic the judiciary would also be in the executive branch.

But the essay finishes well.

Josh Marshall with a nice rebuttal to the crap. Money quote:

Back up a bit from the sparks flying over executive privilege and congressional testimony and you realize that these are textbook cases of the party in power interfering or obstructing the administration of justice for narrowly partisan purposes. It's a direct attack on the rule of law.

 
63walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 10:30
Ooooo, that is a money quote. Gotta love it. But noooo, it's the Dems are who are committing partisan politics by asking for...sworn testimony (??). The nerve!

- walk
 
64Perm Dude
      ID: 19229227
      Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 21:42
The insanity of John Yoo
 
65Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 08:32
I would fire her too

I am not saying she wasn't fired for prosecuting Republicans, but from everything I have read she is a bit Left-Wing, I have no idea how she got a job in a Republican administration to start with. Hell, Feinstein even complained about her, of course Dianne is running around saying how great Lam is now.
 
66Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 08:59
I don't follow. What makes her left wing - too few prosecutions? That's more likely a sign of laziness, or inability to handle numerous cases at once than a clue for what her political convictions might be.

And Feinstein didn't complain. Feinstein was complained to by borer patrol.

You and I can't speak on the response given by Lam to Congress ((since we have no idea what a competant USA's workload is like), that her resources were focused on felony cases and defensents that would bring longer sentences, which presumable took more time to prosecute. But we do know tha the Justice Dept defended her, saying specifically, "[her] Strategic Plan and District Priorities were appropriate."
 
67Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 09:04
By the way, you don't really mean to say that you'd see a US Attorney fired over his/her ploitical opinions, do you?
 
68Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 09:36
It depends on whether they are sitting on corruption charges against their political allies.
 
69Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 09:39
It depends on whether they are sitting on corruption charges against their political allies.

no, it doesn't. that has zero to do with being fired of your political opinions.

what you're suggesting is something much different, and if someone isn't doing their job properly - which is what you are suggesting - then termination is certainly a plausible option.
 
70Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 09:49
It depends on whether they are sitting on corruption charges against their political allies.

Which will be the big question for Lam's successor, since her most high profile case is incomplete and leads into the CIA and possibly the White House.



How deep the rabbit hole?

What is disturbing about Lam’s departure is not simply that her efforts seemed to have been judged unfairly but that she is being forced to leave behind so much of the work that she started. Not only must the prosecution of former CIA official Kyle “Dusty” Foggo and businessman Brent Wilkes be placed in the hands of someone else, but investigation of numerous remaining questions will also fall to her successor.

Foggo, who was indicted yesterday, had languished for years as a mid-level bureaucrat passed over by supervisors who viewed him as ethically challenged and prone to poor judgment. When President Bush asked Congress to approve Porter Goss to replace George Tenet as Director of CIA, Goss brought with him long-time associate Patrick Murray, whom President Bush had previously appointed as Associate Deputy Attorney General.

Between the two of them, they conducted a major house cleaning of senior agency personnel and to the amazement of almost everyone, elevated Foggo from running a logistics shop in Germany to becoming Executive Director of the CIA, the No. 3 position in the agency and the office charged with not only running day-to-day operations but also with responsibility for all agency contracts and procurements. The crimes that Foggo is alleged to have committed had already occurred when he became Executive Director.

Indicted with Foggo was his long-time friend, Wilkes, who was indicted not only for conspiring to trade favors for lucrative government contracts with Foggo but also with bribing Cunningham. Wilkes, the operator of numerous corporations and shell corporations is also a Bush “Pioneer,” meaning that he contributed in excess of a $100,000 to Bush’s 2004 presidential campaign.


 
71Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 10:04
That article in #65 is more interesting to me for what it doesn't say. The Administration never said that they were firing Lam for the lack of firearm convictions. Eventurally, they said that she was fired for not prosecuting alien smugglers.

The comparison of what she wasn't fired over to another state doesn't make sense--its is (at best) a bad use of statistics.

This lack of material is a constant these in the document dumps. If these AGs were having problems in certain areas, you would expect to see all sorts of paperwork saying so.

What you do see is after-the-fact justifications. And editorials like #65 which cite reasons for her firing that the Administration doesn't give.
 
72Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:16
Fair enuff, Tree. But that is what the evidence so far suggest happened. From what I can tell Bush didn't automatically fire the holdover Dem appointees [in the unprecedented manner Clinton did] but when some Dem appointees were protecting Dems from corruption charges that had to be corrected.

Now I am cynical and I'm not saying that's neccessarily the whole story but as far as it goes, it sounds like an easily defensible course of action.

FWIW I don't ever see a Bonesman do anything where I don't question whether they might be advancing Bonesman' agenda instead of doing the right thing.
 
73Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:20
[in the unprecedented manner Clinton did]

earlier, you were asked to explain this, as there certainly seems to be precedent. unless, i missed it, you never did.

please explain how it was unprecedented.
 
74Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:25
AFAIK no one has ever fired every last one before upon entering office.
 
75Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:27
You mean besides GWI and Reagan.
 
76Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:30
And not to put too fine a point on it, but you are missing the point.

Think about it in terms of new employees. Most states allow you to fire employees "at-will" particularly when first hired (Ohio, for example, gives you 90 days).

You don't have to give a reason for the firing. There doesn't even have to be a reason--the employees are working for you because you want them to.

However, you cannot fire them and say that they were fired for a reason that isn't true. And you can't lie about the process for it. And insisting that they were "at-will" employees to cover up botched (and possibly faked) reasons is wrong.

THAT's the issue here.
 
77Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:38
AFAIK no one has ever fired every last one before upon entering office.

You mean besides GWI and Reagan.

which has been pointed out several times, much to Baldwin's glossing over.
 
78Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:48
If it is true that Reagan and GBI did so I was unaware of it. In what post was that mentioned/proven?

Interesting that GBI wouldn't want to keep Reagan's AG's if so.
 
79Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:49
Given your feelings about Bush I over Reagan that shouldn't suprise you!
 
80Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 11:56
Over?
 
81Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 12:04
In what post was that mentioned/proven?

man, i'll have to go look, but PD provided the original link and question, and you were asked more than once after that to address it.
 
82Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 13:03
Baldwin
From what I can tell Bush didn't automatically fire the holdover Dem appointees [in the unprecedented manner Clinton did] but when some Dem appointees were protecting Dems from corruption charges that had to be corrected.

Whats your source for that?
 
83Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:11
I would fire this guy too, if I were Bush

I don't care about pot, but I can understand Bush wanting this guy out.

This Left-Wing Rags Notes All the Reasons Given

A Dem Forced this Guy Out


Despite his problems, which were well documented in legal newspapers, Justice officials wanted to keep Ryan on, even as they plotted the firings of other U.S. attorneys. It was only when a Democratic judge threatened to go to Congress to raise a public fuss over an excoriating written evaluation of Ryan's office that Ryan was put on the termination list, according to e-mails released by the White House.

The above was also stated in the rag La Times.


I can see why the Libs here want links, trying to get honest information for the Left Wing media is painstaking and if you pull up a link from a Right- Wing site it is automatically poo-pooed.

I held comment until I received more info, I believe the AGs were fired for many reasons. If I were Bush I might of cleaned house too.

What Bush did was not illegal, but not giving out the reasons immediately was stupid.
 
84Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:17
It depends on what you mean by "did."

If you are talking about the firings, I completely agree. If by lying to Congress (by Sampson, and Gonzales) then I'd have to say "open you eyes."

It would help your case if you were more specific about what you are objecting to.
 
85Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:22
I mean Bush should of immediately gave his reason for the firings. The guy has no clue how to manipulate the Media, he doesn't even try. Which is fine for him, he is gone in 2 years, but he is f-ing it up for the rest of the Republicans.
 
86Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:26
I can see why the Libs here want links, trying to get honest information for the Left Wing media is painstaking and if you pull up a link from a Right- Wing site it is automatically poo-pooed.

whatever.

you're either looking for a way to not to do research, or a free pass.

"left wing media", like the NY Times, is as oft-criticized by the left as it is by the right.

and that is how it should be.
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:28
What Bush did was not illegal, but not giving out the reasons immediately was stupid.

Uhh... how about lying about those reasons?

And honestly Jag what basis of camparison can you possibly claim? Can you say with any degree of certainty that there aren't similar complaints about almost every US Attorney?

As an employed adult you are aware that with just a little bit of scrutiny almost anyone's work record can be made to look poor to someone who isn't familiar with their job. The harder the job, the easier it is. Its especially easy to exploit the record of someone in a high;level public position such as USA, just like any official who finds himself in the spotlight.

Who knows, maybe you're right, but given that you've shown yourself to know less about USAs than even I do (and I barely know anything), you're obviously just grasping at straws to preserve the standing of your heroes in the executive branch.
 
88Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:31
Yeah, I agree. And the evidence is mounting that the narrow, win-at-all-costs strategy Rove instituted has given them short-term success with a lot of long-term harm for the GOP.

pd
 
89Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:41
Let me see if I have the Dems new policy right , go after the Administration for something that is definitely not criminal in hopes they can embarass them or even catch them with a statement that can be perceived as a lie. Hey, it worked with Scooter.
 
90Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:43
Further, numerous emails in the document dump make it clear that Karl Rove was involved very early in planning the firings.

And more, not much has been made of the fact that Miers sought to fire all 93 USAs before Gonzalez halted it. Considering the elimination of the 120 day limit on AG interim appointments, are teh dots really that hard to connect?

Can you imagine what Jag would be writing if it were a Dem administration that pulled this?
 
91Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:44
The criminal part was lying under oath. In fact, the same crime Republicans had a big snit about with Clinton.

Dems didn't force them to lie. They merely asked them why the AGs were fired for reasons that seemingly had nothing to do with their actual job performance. As is their right, of course.
 
92Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:45
Even if they fired every AG in the country to put in their own lapdogs, it is not illegal. Hell, Clinton did it, he was just better at finding lapdogs, that didn't have to be fired later. We all know Bush has a problem with his appointments.
 
93Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:48
Sure, buddy. Get caught red-handed in yet another unprecedented executive power grab (grossly counter to long established conservative principles, by the way) and blame the other side for ending and getting to the bottom of it.

You really do care more about rightist talking points than the good of the country or even the preservation of true conservative principles.
 
94Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:49
go after the Administration for something that is definitely not criminal in hopes they can embarass them or even catch them with a statement that can be perceived as a lie. Hey, it worked with Scooter.

 
95Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:50
What Bush did was not illegal, but not giving out the reasons immediately was stupid.

Clinton's "lapdogs" had to be approved by the senate. Bush tried to fix it so that he could skip over that part. Or did they gloss over that little tidbit where you get your news?
 
96Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:50
That's exactly right (except, of course, that Clinton didn't actually let people go. He merely asked for resignations, but kept nearly all of them on the job). And that's exactly not the point.

You have to remember that the firings came on the heels of a change in the Patriot Act, which allowed Bush to replace fired AGs without having to go through the normal confirmation process. The staffer who inserted the language (unbeknownst to his boss, Arlen Spector), I understand is now at AG in Utah. Coincidence?
 
97Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 15:58
I agree with many of the firings, especially Lam. How the Hell she was ever put in that office in the first place goes back to Bush making incompetent appointments.

Libby was convicted, because it was perceived he was lying. It turned out he had nothing to do with the Gloryhound Wilsons.

MITH- If you want to deny the NYT is liberal, fine, it is subjective, you can even call Ted Kennedy a right-winger and even post a link to back it up. I am sure at some point in his carreer he did something that wasn't socialist.
 
98Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:01
Libby was convicted for lying to the Grand Jury (which, of course, he did). He wasn't convicted (or even charged) with blowing Plame's cover.
 
99Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:07
It has been awhile, but I believe the statement PERCEIVED to be a lie was when he said he couldn't remember.

You guys are funny, you accuse me of being unbending and unknowledgeable, when I don't agree with statements like "The NYT is not Liberal."
 
100Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:11
You guys are funny, you accuse me of being unbending and unknowledgeable, when I don't agree with statements like "The NYT is not Liberal."

link please. show me where someone accussed you of being unbending because you don't agree with a statement like "The NYT is not liberal"

i accused you of being lazy for not wanting to do research, but no one here called you unbending for anything relating to the NY Times.

unbending for other obvious reasons, but not that one. there is certainly some subjectivity to that.

but you've been unyielding when being shown actual, absolute facts.

so, again, link please.

 
101Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:13
How the Hell she was ever put in that office in the first place goes back to Bush making incompetent appointments.

Humor me (really). What made her a bad candidate for USA?
 
102Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:25
Tree, I am not going to post a link. Read almost any thread, Mattinglyinthehall, increasely attacks my knowledge and intellegence to make his point or how about this tidbit from Zen "There are a million factors to consider what creates the best schools, yet I haven't heard you make one sober, well reasoned statement about any of these questions. In fact, I've never heard you ask a single question. I take that as an unwillingness to listen and a general disinterest in learning and life is far too short to enter into a discussion with someone who is not interested in learning for he has nothing to share." Arrogance Supreme, I can learn from you, but I have yet seen one of you liberals move an inch off your positions.

Tree do you have any opinions or can you only cut and paste "Do you have a link."
 
103Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:26
Dinner time!
 
104Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:35
Jag - you made a very specific accusation. are you not going to back up that accusation?

i don't believe anyone stated what you're accusing them of. no one called you "unbending" or anything of the sort because you find the NY Times to be too "liberal".

i realize that you don't like to provide links, because you often don't have anything to back up what you say, and you conveniently choose to blame the liberal media.

that's why i asked for a link that didn't even require you to leave this form.

and that's why MITH and Zen attack you. because you don't provide any proof to your statements, and basically speak as if your thoughts are the gospel truth.

people are making you accountable. maybe you didn't have that growing up in your isolated private school life, but most people, do.

and those are the standards you're being held to.
 
105Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:48
In fact, I've never heard you ask a single question. I take that as an unwillingness to listen and a general disinterest in learning...

This is the best couple of sentences that Jag has written since he has returned to the forum. He is exactly right here. Clearly he has not heard many of the questions asked of him and, as I have said all along, this is this is a clear indicator of his unwillingness to listen and a general disinterest in learning.

Well said.

Here are some still unanswered questions from this thread alone that Jag has apparently never heard:
#49 PD: Who knew [Valerie Plame] was a CIA operative, then? And how?

#66 MITH: What makes [Carol Lam] left wing - too few prosecutions?

#67 MITH: By the way, you don't really mean to say that you'd see a US Attorney fired over his/her ploitical opinions, do you?

#87 MITH: Uhh... how about lying about those reasons?

#100 Tree: show me where someone accussed you of being unbending because you don't agree with a statement like "The NYT is not liberal"

#101 MITH: Humor me (really). What made her a bad candidate for USA?
Haven't heard a single question, huh? We're obviously listening. And we keep asking you how you come up with this stuff. And exach time, thats where the discussion breaks down. How in the world can you expect me to respect your intelligence and knowledge with a record like that?

Arrogance Supreme, I can learn from you, but I have yet seen one of you liberals move an inch off your positions

How in the world would you know anything about my positions? Any knowledgable person here familiar with me, left or right, will tell you that I have 100X more respect for opposing perspectives than you do.
 
106Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:55
Lam wasn't a bad candidate according to the White House. In fact, the Justice Department seems to have supported her to the point of trying to ensure that her policies were protected from criticism outside the administration. If she was so bad this wouldn't make any sense.

And, again, there is no internal criticism of Lam in the thousands of documents the Administration has released.

Lam's problem is directly tied to Darrell Issa, who was pissed that Lam went after, and put away, his buddy Randy "Duke" Cunningham.
 
107Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 16:56
Agreed. Jag feels it was stupid to hire her in the first place. I've asked him to elaborate. But h enever heard me ask any questions.
 
108Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 17:49
You guys are funny, you accuse me of being unbending and unknowledgeable, when I don't agree with statements like "The NYT is not Liberal."
I was not called to task on that particular statement. I used it as an example because while many items we discuss are extremely subjective, the NYT being liberal shouldn't be.

I would of fired Lam for the exact same reason Dianne Feinstein went to Alberto Gonzales "It is my understanding that Ms. Lam may have some of the most restrictive prosecutorial guidelines nationwide for immigration cases, such that many Border Patrol agents end up not referring their cases." a direct quote by Feinstein. This is in an area with one of the largest concentration of illegal immigrants.
 
109Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:03
How about you guys posting links to all your opinions?

Yeah, I agree. And the evidence is mounting that the narrow, win-at-all-costs strategy Rove instituted has given them short-term success with a lot of long-term harm for the GOP.

What evidence?

Further, numerous emails in the document dump make it clear that Karl Rove was involved very early in planning the firings.

Let's see it.

In fact you can not post any clear evidence on why Bush fired the AGs, unless you bugged the Whitehouse. Everything in this entire thread is opinion, so either shut up or quit demanding links.



 
110Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:03
And yet (again) this wasn't a problem for the Justice Department until after she was fired.

The point isn't whether you would have fired them. Or for whatever made up reason you would have done so.
 
111Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:04
I love how quick you are to accept the assessment of Diane Feinstein!

Here's a few more questions for you to miss, Jag:

How was the administration supposed to know beforehand what Lam's "stategic plan and priorities" (as the DOJ put it in their defense of Lam in response to Feinstein) would be?

Do you claim to know that this was her prosecutorial approach prior to her USA appointment?

Hell, can you even be sure that her approach to prosecuting border cases wasn't as directly requested from the DOJ?
 
112Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:11
When appointed in 2002, Lam said she would emphasize public corruption and white collar crime cases

Tree's Link

From the start her target was white collar crime.
 
113Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:11
and basically speak as if your thoughts are the gospel truth. - Tree

This from someone who posts as if his every emotion deserves to be accepted as the gospel truth.
 
114Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:13
Nothing wrong with that.

Of course, the fact that half her office was devoted to immigration shows she wasn't a one-note Johnny either.

Jag: Do you think she didn't take enough immigration cases? Yes or no?


Not sure about this analysis, but interesting nevertheless. We know two of the AGs were fired for not moving on voting fraud cases which, in the end, were bogus cases. Rove's schtick certainly involves voter manipulation jobs (NH phone jamming, etc). Not outside the realm of possibility.
 
115Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:14
Great, Baldwin is here. The Marines have landed!
 
116Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:16
Great. The Red Herring Marines for some personal attacking that Jag seemingly can't handle himself. This will certainly move his argument along...


Money quotes for article I linked to in 114
 
117Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:18
Jag: Do you think she didn't take enough immigration cases? Yes or no

Compared to Iowa, yes, she took enough, compared to a border area, not even close to enough.
 
118Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:20
You are getting closer to an answer, I'll give you that.

Did she take as much as she should have? Keep in mind that the Justice Department had no problem with he immigration priorities.
 
119Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:21
That's certainly what its been, sadly.

Baldwin, post 82?
 
120Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:22
Shouldn't be an arguement like Bush says, he is the decision maker and he had to make a decision and his decision was to fire Lam, cuz that's what decision makers do.
 
121sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:25
Firing Lam wasnt a problem for him. The lies told to Congress, the attempt to circumvent oversight for replacement appointments...THAT is the problem which you have so glibly ignored.
 
122Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:29
...the obvious prosecutorial political profiling, the further usurping of unprecedented executive power, etc.

Nothing to see here!
 
123Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:29
MITH, you are blind to attacks the right receive from many of the posters here, including some by yourself. We are outnumbered about 5 to 1 and the attacks are accumilative. It takes a thick skin for anyone to right of Ted Kennedy to post here and sometime it gets to the point where retaliation is necessary. But I love a good challenge, which is why I come to the Lion's Den.
 
124Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:35
What lies were told to congress? Post me a link!
 
125Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:37
LOL!

I'd bet I adere more to true conservative principles than you do. All you know is left vs right.

And hey, you're the one who's whining about not being listened to. 8 unanswered questions by my count. Have at it, tough guy.
 
126Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:37
MITH

Re:82

I realize digging into the details of each fired individual to see exactly what he was or wasn't doing that displeased the Bushies would be about as rewarding a project as this thread could engage in and in the old days I would be just the one to do it, but I just can't work up enthusiasm for politics anymore.

That is the sense I get from reading the internal memos and the details of the NM AG in particular. There prolly was something more specific than just a general sense to it, but I am not gonna be the one to dig for it anymore. You will just have to judge my reading skills and my nose for these things or not.

Not only can I not work up the enthusiasm for politics in general, it's this subject more than any other.

There is no story here. Stuff like this is as common as sand in politics. The only story here AFAIK is that the mainstream media is still so in the pocket of the left that they can turn anything into a firestorm when they need to gin something up.
 
127Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:40
That's as honest an answer as I've seen from you B. I might disagree, but that's a great post.
 
128sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:41
HERE'S ONE


HERES ANOTHER


HERES A 3RD

took about 3 minutes.
 
129Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:44
Which question did I not answer?
 
130Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 18:48
You wonder why they were firing their own attorneys?

Maybe they were too good at their jobs

This is going to blow up in the Administration's face. The one-two punch of the firings and this will cloud and weaken the Administration for the next couple of months.
 
131Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 19:03
The first one is a Liberal site and the timeline looks off, if I am not mistaking this was done after the firings.

The second has nothing to do with the AGs

The third does not have anything to do with Congress
 
132Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 19:12
Jag 129
See post 105. but before you do, make sure to read your own post 102 first. You answered 1 of 6 from there, which have piled up since Wednesday. Once you're finished there, just to show you that I'm am paying plenty of attention to you, you can move on to 111.


Baldwin 126
Honest enough I guess, but I asked you where you got the information you based your assumption in post 72 on;

"From what I can tell Bush didn't automatically fire the holdover Dem appointees... but when some Dem appointees were protecting Dems from corruption charges that had to be corrected."

Davis Iglesias was not a Clinton appointee. He, like the other 7 USAs fired mid-term were all appointed by Bush.
 
133Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 19:33
Here you go MITH-

49. Armitage, knew and he thought it was common knowledge.

66. Restrictive guidelines for immigrant cases.

67. yes

87. not a question

100. addressed

101. adressed

111. Was addressed in 112, as far as being sure that DoJ didn't tell her to prosecute that way, no, nor am I not sure space aliens didn't command her to prosecute that way. Whoa that is alot of double negatives.
 
134Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 20:09
Sigh.

post 131.

The date of the firings is irrelevant.

On Jan 18th Gonzalez testified that the administration is fully committed to having every USA confirmed by the Senate.

A month earlier, Kyle Sampson wrote the following:
I think we should gum this to death. Ask the senators to give Tim a chance, meet with him, give him some time in office to see how he performs, etc. If they ultimately say no, never (and the longer we can forestall that, the better) then we can tell them we'll look for other candidates. Ask them for recommendations, evaluate the recommendations, interview their candidates and otherwise run out the clock. All of this should be done in "good faith" of course. [i just love the quotes around good faith -mith]
Further down the memo:
The only thing really at risk here is a repeal of the Attorney General's appointment authority. We intend to have DOJ leg affairs people on notice to work hard to preserve this. House members won't care about this. All we really need is for one Senator to object to language being added to legislative vehicles that are moving through. There is some risk that we'll lose the authority. But if we don't ever exercise it, then what's the point of having it. (I'm not 100% sure that Tim was the guy on which to test drive this authority, but know that getting him appointed was important to Harriet, Karl, etc.)

post 133

#49 PD asked how he knew.

#66 & #67 Further evidence you are a fool and a hack.

#87 is a question,. And the issue is hammered down above in this post.

#100 I guess I missed this whole NYT is not liberal thing. In post 97 you wrote, If you want to deny the NYT is liberal, fine, it is subjective. I have no idea what you're referring to here. When have I discussed the political leanings of the NYT with you?

#101 I guess your opinion is that only a prosecutor who specializes in border affairs is qualified for that post? Whatever.

In any case, I'm glad that you were able to find the questions that have been posed to you regarding your "positions". Hopefully no you know that you don't have to cry anymore that no one is listening to you.
 
135Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 20:11
Of course Bush's DOJ didn't want her prosecuting that way - A popular Republican congressman indicted and convicted; #3 man in the CIA indicted; phony defense contractors with ties to Cheney's office indicted; pioneer campaign contributors to Bush's campaign indicted.

If she'd only gone after those 12 date pickers in Indio instead of those subverting the defense appropriations process she could have kept her job.
 
136walk
      ID: 259313119
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 20:34
Wow, good stuff. Been away for the day. I do think, Jag, based on the links, most of which I read earlier in the week, there was a pattern to the dismissals: that the prosecutors were either not going after the opposition party hard enough or not protecting the Republican party's no-do-gooders. I really think the pattern is clear, and the the attempts afterwards to place the blame on the victims and distance the WH from the decisions all backfired. It's a very partisan series of events.

- walk
 
137Perm Dude
      ID: 92402319
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:02
The "document dump" of last week had an 18 day gap of correspondence. That is, 18 days virtually no letters, notes, emails, or other memoranda (only three things, as I recall).

The latest document dump of today, however, reveals that AG Gozales knew of, and participated in, the decisions to fire the USAGs

This contradicts his testimony of a few days ago.

Gonzales is toast. The longer Bush holds onto him, the worse it looks. Just like holding onto Rumsfeld hurt him, loyalty will cost Bush, and Republicans in general, a lot.

Best thing for Bush would be to cut bait. Now.
 
138sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:32
but that PD, would require Bush to draw the same conclusion from all of this, as it would require Jag to draw....
 
139Perm Dude
      ID: 92402319
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:35
Not necessarily. Bush's problem is that he over-values loyalty. But many presidents start thinking of their legacy in their second term, and surely this mishandled series of firings isn't something Bush wants hanging around. He's still got time to put in a new AG and have a bit of time for a loyal "Bushie" in the position to do something.

I'm guessing, at this point, that much of this is news to Bush. I think Bush will do the right thing even if it isn't for the "right" reason.
 
140Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:42
Sampson is an idiot, why he would send an e-mail like that is beyond me. This kinda blows the Karl Rove, master of all evil, is behind all the firings. It also discounts Gonzales lied to congress about Senate approved AGS.

The five-step plan involved notifying Republican home-state senators of the impending dismissals, preparing for potential political upheaval and naming replacements and submitting them to the Senate for confirmation.

Does it bother anyone how the e-mail was released and who released it?
 
141Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:45
Clearly you posted before you read post 137. But to assume that a decision to put DOJ Legislative Affairs on such a project would be spawned with Gonzalez' knowledge in the first place is pretty niave.
 
142Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:46
Does it bother anyone how the e-mail was released and who released it?

You truly are wothless here.
 
143Perm Dude
      ID: 92402319
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:48
It was part of the document dump, Jag. The request, by Congress, for material about the firings.

This is the second large document dump--which fills in some of the gap from documents held back the first time.

Sampson was behind much of it, but Rove appears to have been involved as well. I see nothing which says that Rove is not all over these firings. Just because we have one guy (Sampson) who is clearly involved doesn't clear anyone else, particularly a guy like Rove who has no problems using anything he can to damage Democrats.
 
144Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:49
Care to elaborate?
 
145Perm Dude
      ID: 92402319
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:50
Uh, no. I'll let my links do the talking.
 
146Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:52
Gonzales had to sign off on the firings, I don't believe that part can be news.
 
147Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 23:54
PD, that was for MITH's comment about who released the e-mail.
 
148Perm Dude
      ID: 92402319
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 00:04
NP. What is news is that he said he didn't, and now we have proof that he lied.
 
149Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 00:53
He had to sign off on it at some point, I don't believe Sampson would of had the authority. I still would like to know how the e-mail was discovered.
 
151Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 01:39
I don't believe Sampson would of had the authority.

What authority?

Regardless, it's naive as hell to think that the AG wouldn't be aware of a plan discussed openly by his own chief of staff to have DOJ Legislative Affairs "work hard to preserve this." Do you really think that Alberto Gonzalez wouldn't have a clue about what his Leglative Affairs bureau had been working on in that time?


And it's almost as naive to believe that an account from Gonzalez' aides today regarding exactly what was and wasn't discussed at a meeting from almost a month before Sampson's email is stronger evidence. What, you think Sampson probably wasn't at that meeting?

Its obvious that the whole dept has been in full damage control for weeks now. They will admit only what they have to and obscure the record as much as they gamble they can get away with. Of course they'd include sending them to the Senate in their account.

If you did read the whole Sampson email string, you obviously didn't put much thought into it.


In a nutshell (so we know we're on the same page):

Tim Griffin, former Rove aide and new USA in AR sends an email with an AP article pasted in it to someone named Monica Godling at the DOJ. She then fowards it to Sampson. The article is about Arkansas Senator Blanche Lincoln being upset over her belief that Griffin wouldn't have to go through the confirmation process.

Near the end of the article, the AP writer sources a "Justice dept spokesperson" saying that the DOJ would work with the AR legislators and adding that "Griffin was nominated on an interim basis because of the timing of Cummins' resignation."

Sampson said in his reply that this concerned, clearly believing the spokesperson commited to too much, apparently by saying that they'd work with the AR legislators and stating rather casually that Griffin was "nominated on an interim basis."

Sampson then gave very specific wording for DOJ tightrope-walking talking points on the topic. Included in those points is the sentence, "It is our hope that, in every federal district, we'll be able to have a USA who was nominated by the President and confirmed by the President."


So... we know for a fact that DOJ officials have been instructed since Dec 20th to include the BS that they care about Senate onfirmations into everything they say on the topic. That Sampson's aides said as much today is to be expected.

And of course we know that Senate confirmation as any kind of priority really is BS by just looking at the emails that follow, written within the ext hour or so.

Putting aside even the Legislative Assairs assignment, do you think a DOJ PR strategy to address a major power grab gets planned out to that detail without the Attorney General being on board? Being told at least sometime before his testimony a month later? I mean, he is among teh DOJ officials who speak to the media.

Wouldncha think someone would want to clue him in on the established highky specific talking points before he testified?



And to answer your questioon, the discovery of that email and the thousands of other documents circulating around is explained by PD in post 143. How in the world can someone argue as vehemently on this topic as you have without knowing that unless 75% of what you write is straight from your own ass?
 
152Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 02:54
Alot of this information has only been out for a few hours so chill the f--- out.
 
153walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 07:51
Gonzalez knew about Firings
 
154Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3524337
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 09:55
Jag

There have been at least 3 document dumps now. One in the middle of last week, one on the 19th (which contained the Sampson email, I believe) and one yesterday.

Aside possibly from the subpoena fight, these document dumps are the biggest and most important stories related to this scandal in the past couple of weeks.

Pretty telling that someone who outright disses the liberal media has to ask where these emails came from. Is anyone here the least bit surprised that whatever exposure Jag allows himself to current events doesn't provide an answer for him? I guess it doesn't quite make Sean Hannity's rundown, huh?
 
155walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 10:47
March 24, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Knight of the Living Dead
By SLAVOJ ZIZEK
London


SINCE the release of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed’s dramatic confessions, moral outrage at the extent of his crimes has been mixed with doubts. Can his claims be trusted? What if he confessed to more than he really did, either because of a vain desire to be remembered as the big terrorist mastermind, or because he was ready to confess anything in order to stop the water boarding and other “enhanced interrogation techniques”?

If there was one surprising aspect to this situation it has less to do with the confessions themselves than with the fact that for the first time in a great many years, torture was normalized — presented as something acceptable. The ethical consequences of it should worry us all.

While the scope of Mr. Mohammed’s crimes is clear and horrifying, it is worth noting that the United States seems incapable of treating him even as it would the hardest criminal — in the civilized Western world, even the most depraved child murderer gets judged and punished. But any legal trial and punishment of Mr. Mohammed is now impossible — no court that operates within the frames of Western legal systems can deal with illegal detentions, confessions obtained by torture and the like. (And this conforms, perversely, to Mr. Mohammed’s desire to be treated as an enemy rather than a criminal.)

It is as if not only the terrorists themselves, but also the fight against them, now has to proceed in a gray zone of legality. We thus have de facto “legal” and “illegal” criminals: those who are to be treated with legal procedures (using lawyers and the like), and those who are outside legality, subject to military tribunals or seemingly endless incarceration.

Mr. Mohammed has become what the Italian political philosopher Giorgio Agamben calls “homo sacer”: a creature legally dead while biologically still alive. And he’s not the only one living in an in-between world. The American authorities who deal with detainees have become a sort of counterpart to homo sacer: acting as a legal power, they operate in an empty space that is sustained by the law and yet not regulated by the rule of law.

Some don’t find this troubling. The realistic counterargument goes: The war on terrorism is dirty, one is put in situations where the lives of thousands may depend on information we can get from our prisoners, and one must take extreme steps. As Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School puts it: “I’m not in favor of torture, but if you’re going to have it, it should damn well have court approval.” Well, if this is “honesty,” I think I’ll stick with hypocrisy.

Yes, most of us can imagine a singular situation in which we might resort to torture — to save a loved one from immediate, unspeakable harm perhaps. I can. In such a case, however, it is crucial that I do not elevate this desperate choice into a universal principle. In the unavoidable brutal urgency of the moment, I should simply do it. But it cannot become an acceptable standard; I must retain the proper sense of the horror of what I did. And when torture becomes just another in the list of counterterrorism techniques, all sense of horror is lost.

When, in the fifth season of the TV show “24,” it became clear that the mastermind behind the terrorist plot was none other than the president himself, many of us were eagerly waiting to see whether Jack Bauer would apply to the “leader of the free world” his standard technique in dealing with terrorists who do not want to divulge a secret that may save thousands. Will he torture the president?

Reality has now surpassed TV. What “24” still had the decency to present as Jack Bauer’s disturbing and desperate choice is now rendered business as usual.

In a way, those who refuse to advocate torture outright but still accept it as a legitimate topic of debate are more dangerous than those who explicitly endorse it. Morality is never just a matter of individual conscience. It thrives only if it is sustained by what Hegel called “objective spirit,” the set of unwritten rules that form the background of every individual’s activity, telling us what is acceptable and what is unacceptable.

For example, a clear sign of progress in Western society is that one does not need to argue against rape: it is “dogmatically” clear to everyone that rape is wrong. If someone were to advocate the legitimacy of rape, he would appear so ridiculous as to disqualify himself from any further consideration. And the same should hold for torture.

Are we aware what lies at the end of the road opened up by the normalization of torture? A significant detail of Mr. Mohammed’s confession gives a hint. It was reported that the interrogators submitted to waterboarding and were able to endure it for less than 15 seconds on average before being ready to confess anything and everything. Mr. Mohammed, however, gained their grudging admiration by enduring it for two and a half minutes.

Are we aware that the last time such things were part of public discourse was back in the late Middle Ages, when torture was still a public spectacle, an honorable way to test a captured enemy who might gain the admiration of the crowd if he bore the pain with dignity? Do we really want to return to this kind of primitive warrior ethics?

This is why, in the end, the greatest victims of torture-as-usual are the rest of us, the informed public. A precious part of our collective identity has been irretrievably lost. We are in the middle of a process of moral corruption: those in power are literally trying to break a part of our ethical backbone, to dampen and undo what is arguably our civilization’s greatest achievement, the growth of our spontaneous moral sensitivity.

Slavoj Zizek, the international director of the Birkbeck Institute for the Humanities, is the author, most recently, of “The Parallax View.”
 
156walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 10:48
The torture issue is relevant to this thread cos IIRC, Gonzalez is a chief orchestrator of our policies in this regard. I agree the sentimements of the writer. Very eloquently put.

- walk
 
157Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 01:04
MITH, I never said I had more knowledge than the Liberals on this forum, just a whole lot more common sense. Most of my comments were on Carol Lam, who I did read about.

I guess congrats are in order to the Dems, once again they manufactored a scandal and ruined some more carreers.

The only good news about the Democrat witch hunts is it distracts them from their primary mission of destroying the American Way of Life.
 
158Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 01:36
I never said I had more knowledge than the Liberals on this forum

And its clear you don't even possess a basic understanding of the current events you've been arguing over. Didn't anyone ever tell you that if you pull enough crap out of your ass, eventually someone's eventually going to point out that you're covered in it?

once again they manufactored a scandal

LOL!!

Wasn't it you who was bitching recently that Dems only think lying under oath is a crime when the other side is doing it? Now it's called manufacturing a scandal! Too much!

If you really think that all this "witch hunt" has accomplished is a fake scandal and the ruining of "some more careers" its clear you really do hate Democrats more than you care about your own government's integrity.

You don't care about the further breaking down of checks and balances, (something no true conservative would ever appease) via a blatant power grab that the executive branch attempted to cover up through lies, which it told while under oath.

Too much!

Don't congratulate me. Congratulate America for electing legislators who chose to stop the power grab after its most brazen moments and investigate the lies told to cover it up.

And you'll have to excuse me for not feeling bad about Gonzalez' career and his use of it as a vehicle to preserve "the American Way of Life"!

LOL! I'm sure you have positively no idea how funny you are.
 
159Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 02:15
Why do you keep on talking about a power grab? The Attorney General office is a political appointment. Changing AGs is no more a power grab than changing cabinet members. You may think it is great there are AGs that don't prosecute drug cases under 500lbs or ones that render the Border Police meaningless, but you are not the one in charge of them.

I saw a nice little segment on television of one area where they lock up immigrants, instead of simply giving them a piece of paper and asking them to come back, the jail is empty, word got out in Mexico that these guys don't play around and they avoid the place. I don't give a damn Lam had some Republican named 'Duke' arrested, he should be thrown in jail for just for calling himself 'Duke' but I would fire her in a heartbeat for her complacency towards the immigration problem, especially on a border area.
 
160Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 02:20
Wasn't me that complained about Clinton lying under oath, I find the murder and rape he committed much more serious.
 
161Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 03:02
Why do you keep on talking about a power grab? The Attorney General office is a political appointment. Changing AGs is no more a power grab...

No, Jag. The power grab was the elimination of the of the 120 limit on interim USAs appointed by the AG. What that did was it took away a crucial check on the Executive Branch by the Legislative Branch. Interim USA appointed by the AG without Senate confirmation could stay on as long as the administration wanted. Aside from proving that AG Gonzalez lied under oath, emails in that document dump also show very plainly that the Executive sought to deliberately exploit and defend that new privelege.

But the Senate, in one hell of a bitchslap to the White House and especially the AG's office, voted 94-2 this week to restore that 120 day limit on interim appointees - thanks in no small part due to the media attention and the damning contents of some of those emails, I'm sure.

See post 57, since that one apparently didn't make hannity this week, either.
 
162walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 10:42
March 25, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
When Will Fredo Get Whacked?
By FRANK RICH


PRESIDENT BUSH wants to keep everything that happens in his White House secret, but when it comes to his own emotions, he’s as transparent as a teenager on MySpace.

On Monday morning he observed the Iraq war’s fourth anniversary with a sullen stay-the-course peroration so perfunctory he seemed to sleepwalk through its smorgasbord of recycled half-truths (Iraqi leaders are “beginning to meet the benchmarks”) and boilerplate (“There will be good days, and there will be bad days”). But at a press conference the next day to defend his attorney general, the president was back in the saddle, guns blazing, Mr. Bring ’Em On reborn. He vowed to vanquish his Democratic antagonists much as he once, so very long ago, pledged to make short work of insurgents in Iraq.

The Jekyll-and-Hyde contrast between these two performances couldn’t be a more dramatic indicator of Mr. Bush’s priorities in his presidency’s endgame. His passion for protecting his power and his courtiers far exceeds his passion for protecting the troops he’s pouring into Iraq’s civil war. But why go to the mat for Alberto Gonzales? Even Bush loyalists have rarely shown respect for this crony whom the president saddled with the nickname Fredo; they revolted when Mr. Bush flirted with appointing him to the Supreme Court and shun him now. The attorney general’s alleged infraction — misrepresenting a Justice Department purge of eight United States attorneys, all political appointees, for political reasons — seems an easy-to-settle kerfuffle next to his infamous 2002 memo dismissing the Geneva Conventions’ strictures on torture as “quaint” and “obsolete.”

That’s why the president’s wild overreaction is revealing. So far his truculence has been largely attributed to his slavish loyalty to his White House supplicants, his ideological belief in unilateral executive-branch power and, as always, his need to shield the Machiavellian machinations of Karl Rove (who installed a protégé in place of one of the fired attorneys). But the fierceness of Mr. Bush’s response — to the ludicrous extreme of forbidding transcripts of Congressional questioning of White House personnel — indicates there is far more fire to go with all the Beltway smoke.

Mr. Gonzales may be a nonentity, but he’s a nonentity like Zelig. He’s been present at every dubious legal crossroads in Mr. Bush’s career. That conjoined history began in 1996, when Mr. Bush, then governor of Texas, was summoned for jury duty in Austin. To popular acclaim, he announced he was glad to lend his “average guy” perspective to a drunken driving trial. But there was one hitch. On the juror questionnaire, he left blank a required section asking, “Have you ever been accused, or a complainant, or a witness in a criminal case?”

A likely explanation for that omission, unknown to the public at the time, was that Mr. Bush had been charged with disorderly conduct in 1968 and drunken driving in 1976. Enter Mr. Gonzales. As the story is told in “The President’s Counselor,” a nonpartisan biography by the Texas journalist Bill Minutaglio, Mr. Gonzales met with the judge presiding over the trial in his chambers (a meeting Mr. Gonzales would years later claim to have “no recollection” of requesting) and saved his client from jury duty. Mr. Minutaglio likens the scene to “The Godfather” — casting Mr. Gonzales not as the feckless Fredo, however, but as the “discreet ‘fixer’ attorney,” Robert Duvall’s Tom Hagen.

Mr. Gonzales’s career has been laced with such narrow escapes for both him and Mr. Bush. As a partner at the Houston law firm of Vinson & Elkins, Mr. Gonzales had worked for Enron until 1994. After Enron imploded in 2001, reporters wanted to know whether Ken Lay’s pals in the Bush hierarchy had received a heads up about the company’s pending demise before its unfortunate shareholders were left holding the bag. The White House said that Mr. Gonzales had been out of the Enron loop “to the best of his recollection.” This month Murray Waas of The National Journal uncovered a more recent close shave: Just as Justice Department investigators were about to examine “documents that might have shed light on Gonzales’s role” in the administration’s extralegal domestic wiretapping program last year, Mr. Bush shut down the investigation.

It was Mr. Gonzales as well who threw up roadblocks when the 9/11 Commission sought documents and testimony from the White House about the fateful summer of 2001. Less widely known is Mr. Gonzales’s curious behavior in the C.I.A. leak case while he was still White House counsel. When the Justice Department officially notified him on the evening of Sept. 29, 2003, that it was opening an investigation into the outing of Valerie Wilson, he immediately informed Andrew Card, Mr. Bush’s chief of staff. But Mr. Gonzales waited another 12 hours to officially notify the president and inform White House employees to preserve all materials relevant to the investigation. As Chuck Schumer said after this maneuver became known, “Every good prosecutor knows that any delay could give a culprit time to destroy the evidence.”

Now that 12-hour delay has been matched by the 18-day gap in the Justice Department e-mails turned over to Congress in the dispute over the attorney purge. And we’re being told by Tony Snow that Mr. Bush has “no recollection” of hearing anything about the firings. But even these literal echoes of Watergate cannot obliterate the contours of the story this White House wants to hide.

Do not be distracted by the apples and oranges among the fired attorneys. Perhaps a couple of their forced resignations were routine. But in other instances, incriminating evidence coalesces around a familiar administration motive: its desperate desire to cover up the corruption that soiled what was supposed to be this White House’s greatest asset, its protection of the nation’s security. This was the motive that drove the White House to vilify Joseph Wilson when he challenged fraudulent prewar intelligence about Saddam’s W.M.D. The e-mails in the attorney flap released so far suggest that this same motive may have driven the Justice Department to try mounting a similar strike at Patrick Fitzgerald, the United States attorney charged with investigating the Wilson leak.

In March 2005, while preparing for the firings, Mr. Gonzales’s now-jettisoned chief of staff, D. Kyle Sampson, produced a chart rating all 93 United States attorneys nationwide. Mr. Fitzgerald, widely admired as one of the nation’s best prosecutors (most famously of terrorists), was somehow slapped with the designation “not distinguished.” Two others given that same rating were fired. You have to wonder if Mr. Fitzgerald was spared because someone in a high place belatedly calculated the political firestorm that would engulf the White House had this prosecutor been part of a Saturday night massacre in the middle of the Wilson inquiry.

Another canned attorney to track because of her scrutiny of Bush administration national security scandals is Carol Lam. She was fired from her post in San Diego after her successful prosecution of Representative Duke Cunningham, the California Republican who took $2.4 million in bribes from defense contractors. Mr. Rove has publicly suggested that Ms. Lam got the ax because “she would not commit resources to prosecute immigration offenses.” That’s false. Last August an assistant attorney general praised her for doubling her immigration prosecutions; last week USA Today crunched the statistics and found that she ranked seventh among her 93 peers in successful prosecutions for 2006, with immigration violations accounting for the largest single crime category prosecuted during her tenure.

To see what Mr. Rove might be trying to cover up, look instead at what Ms. Lam was up to in May, just as the Justice Department e-mails indicate she was being earmarked for removal. Building on the Cunningham case, she was closing in on Dusty Foggo, the C.I.A.’s No. 3 official and the director of its daily operations. Mr. Foggo had been installed in this high intelligence position by Mr. Bush’s handpicked successor to George Tenet as C.I.A. director, Porter Goss.

Ms. Lam’s pursuit sped Mr. Foggo’s abrupt resignation; Mr. Goss was out too after serving less than two years. Nine months later — just as Ms. Lam stepped down from her job in February — Mr. Foggo and a defense contractor who raised more than $100,000 for the 2004 Bush-Cheney campaign were indicted by a grand jury on 11 counts of conspiracy and money laundering in what The Washington Post called “one of the first criminal cases to reach into the C.I.A.’s clandestine operations in Europe and the Middle East.” Because the allegations include the compromising of classified information that remains classified, we don’t know the full extent of the damage to an agency and a nation at war.

Not yet anyway. “I’m not going to resign,” Mr. Gonzales asserted last week as he played the minority card, rounding up Hispanic supporters to cheer his protestations of innocence. “I’m going to stay focused on protecting our kids.” Actually, he’s going to stay focused on protecting the president. Once he can no longer be useful in that role, it’s a sure thing that like Scooter before him, Fredo will be tossed overboard.
 
163Tree
      ID: 432352510
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 14:27
to answer the question posed in the above column, i'm thinking - "not long now."

GOP support for attorney general erodes
 
164Perm Dude
      ID: 3255256
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 14:48
The sad part, for the Administration, is that all the AGs seemed willing to just go away quietly, until the Justice Department started saying that they were fired for performance reasons.
 
165Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 14:58
Mr. Rove has publicly suggested that Ms. Lam got the ax because “she would not commit resources to prosecute immigration offenses.” That’s false. Last August an assistant attorney general praised her for doubling her immigration prosecutions; last week USA Today crunched the statistics and found that she ranked seventh among her 93 peers in successful prosecutions for 2006, with immigration violations accounting for the largest single crime category prosecuted during her tenure.

This is an excellent example of propaganda and bastardization of facts. Compare the facts from this link to Walk's op-ed piece


Lam's statistics


The piece has an unnamed Assistant Attorney General ( William E. Moschell ) apraising Lam to her commitment for prosecuting immigration crime, but ignored all the evidence to the contrary.

Concern about Lam's prosecution rates came to Sen. Dianne Feinstein's attention last summer, when Border Patrol agents complained that despite their high border apprehension rates, Lam prosecuted few such cases. In a June letter to the Justice Department, Feinstein, D-Calif., asked for Lam's prosecution figures.

The even bigger bastardization of facts was this
last week USA Today crunched the statistics and found that she ranked seventh among her 93 peers in successful prosecutions for 2006, with immigration violations accounting for the largest single crime category prosecuted during her tenure. Compared to Idaho, she is doing a great job, compared to border areas she is the worse AG.

During a hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee last week, Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., produced prosecution statistics from Lam's office that he said demonstrated that Lam's “policies were too restrictive in the kind of cases” she would pursue.

From fiscal 2002 through 2006, Lam's office sentenced 88 people for firearms crimes, according to figures the Justice Department provided Sessions. Those numbers track closely with figures from the U.S. Sentencing Commission, an independent agency under the federal judiciary system. The commission defines firearms violations as illegal possession, transportation or trafficking of firearms or their use during a felony.

During the same period, 946 people were sentenced for the same crimes in the Southern District of Texas, 894 in the Western District of Texas, 897 in the District of Arizona, 437 in the District of New Mexico and 439 in the Southern District of Alabama, where Sessions was U.S. attorney for 12 years and which he contends had one-fifth of Lam's resources.

In fact, while firearms prosecutions accounted for nearly 12 percent of U.S. attorneys' prosecutions nationwide in 2006, they accounted for less than 1 percent of Lam's prosecutions that year.

“It doesn't take that many resources to prosecute a (firearms) case,” Sessions told Lam last week. “I mean, you bring the charge and most of them plead guilty.”


Sessions also pointed out that from fiscal 2002 through 2006, Lam's office prosecuted an average of 1,711 immigration cases a year, which he said hit a low of 1,411 prosecutions in 2006. During that year, 4,132 immigration cases were prosecuted in the Southern District of Texas, 2,669 in the Western District of Texas, 2,193 in the District of Arizona and 1,361 in the District of New Mexico


While Walk's op-ed piece may state facts, it clearly gives a false impression of Lam handling of immigration cases. A common tactic I see often on this forum. If your arguement has merit, this type of propaganda would not be necessary.
 
166walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 16:49
Hi, the op-ed piece is just that, although I think Frank Rich is excellent. I like your rebuttal, but please understand that the piece I post is not intended to be courtroom evidence, but one person's informed and articulate view. There are many informed views.

- walk
 
167Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 17:52
Jag how do you explain the high praise from Asst AG Moschell?

The way I see, it, there are two likely answers. Eithier: 1) he's very bad at his job or 2) there is a lot more to know about being an effective USA than the few tidbits of information that you have come across and latched on to draw your conclusions of Lam.

Maybe you're right about Lam, Jag. Maybe you're not. Only one of us is sure about his opinion of Lam even though neither of us in possession of all of the necessary information (or qualified, for that matter) to assess her.

There's a very good word for the relentless adherence to opinions that are based on very limited information: ignorance. Its that stuff you see there prominantly displayed on your sleeve.

Regardless, in the greater scheme of this case it makes very little difference. Whether she should have been fired or not, we were lied to about why she and the others were fired and whether Gonzalez and others were in on it. That the executive sought to circumvent the authority of the Legislature is also undenyable, nor is the fact that the AGs office also lied to obscure it's intentions of that power grab.
 
168walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 18:52
MITH, #167. Well said. The pattern of all of these selective firings and then poor justification and explanation are egregious.

- walk
 
169Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 20:21
You can put anyone on the stand. me, you, the Pope, ANYONE and sooner or later they will have a misstep, they will forget, remember differently or phrase something wrong. Thats is why the Dems are so adamant about using their supeona power for cases that are not even a crime.

Asst AG Moschell was probably just blowing smoke to pretend he was actually listening to Feinstein. That is what I would do. I could not care less what Feinstein ever had to say. In my opinion, she is a walking definition of hypocrasy, her flip flop on Lam is an excellent example of that. This goes for all the high profile Democrats. It has been a decade or more since I heard anything of relevance come from their party. They are useful for check and balances, I guess, but not for any type of substantial thought process.
 
170walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 20:34
Well, I dunno about the Dems wanting to use their subpenis power for non-crimes. As far as I am concerned, there are plenty of high crimes they should pursue, but are not, cos they are not going far enough (e.g. illegal wiretapping, illegal prisons, extraordinary rendition, torture, and the lies to make the case for the war in Iraq). I think these are very transparent at this stage of the game and they should go for impeachment, cos at the end of the day, Bush and Cheney are incompetent and have committed crimes, whatever their (warped) intentions that have hurt our country, big-time.

Regarding the two investigations of current events: Plame and the US Attorneys, it seems pretty obvious, to me, that some wrong-doing was done in both cases, and in the Plame case, at worst, we subverted the cover of an agent whose job it was to uncover WMD (the very reason for the ill-fated war), and in the US Attorney case, at worst, these folks were fired because they did not help the Republicans either get out of trouble or did not go far enough to get Dems into trouble. The focus on their performance, and your focus on Lam as an example, is the exact smokescreen bullsheet that should be your outrage. Instead, blame the victim, deflect, and cover-up.

The republican congress did not do anything resembling a check & balance with our power hungry exec office. A total recipe for disaster if the exec office is incompetent. They were, and are, and this is what we have. Now we have some degree of oversight, and these scandals will not be ignored any more, but we still have a very arrogant admin who explictly do not feel that Congress is to provide oversite of the exec branch (Tony Snow, Thursday or Friday).

- walk
 
171Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 20:44
Walk, I am glad to see you care so much about treatment of terrorists. I guess it is a matter of priorities, you seem to rank it high, I would put that scandal right along with Sanjaya still being on American Idol.
 
172Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 20:53
This whole mess does go back to some of the Bush Administration's incompetence. They should not be listening to anything the Liberals have to say, but they need to do a better job of pretending like they do. Placing some moderates around in office with some common sense would be a nice touch too.
 
173Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:01
Moschell was probably just blowing smoke to pretend he was actually listening to Feinstein... her flip flop on Lam is an excellent example of [hypocrasy].


Translating the latest from Jag's haunches:

Feinstein's "flip flop" on Lam (in which she forwarded a complaint from border patrol to Lam's superior, who assured her of Lam's quality of work) is an example of hypocrisy.

The DOJ's conflicting assessments of Lam (that her prosecutorial proirities were both apropriate and also grounds for her dismissal) was an entirely understandable and acceptable dereliction of sworn responsibility.
 
174Tree
      ID: 432352510
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:18
Walk, I am glad to see you care so much about treatment of terrorists.

Jag -

1. how many people are being held in Gitmo?

2. and how many have been charged?

3. and finally - should we not be setting the standard for nations to look up to?

or do you believe we should sink to the level of those we have spent 200 years fighting and criticizing because of how they treated their prisoners?

 
175Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:27
To be honest, I don't know. It is a subject I can see points from both sides. I don't believe it will have a tremdous affect on the country either way, so how ever it plays out is fine with me.
 
176Perm Dude
      ID: 3255256
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:40
Well, if it isn't clear then you'll have to consider yourself pro-torture. There's a bright, shining line, and if you see both sides you're already over it. Here's what your side is doing.
 
177Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:43
Sorry, don't care. If they start doing it to non-terrorists I will be right with you guys.
 
178Perm Dude
      ID: 3255256
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:50
Uh, right.

Read the ficking thing before commenting, idiot.
 
179walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:50
Yeah, I agree with 174/176...Jag, you do not know if they are doing it to non-terrorists, do you? And even if they are just torturing terrorists (as if), it's still not what our country is all about. Might as well move to Syria. We are better than that. We are civilized. So, just assume it's the real bad guys that have been tortured, and sleep well at night. You are safe now.

- walk
 
180Perm Dude
      ID: 3255256
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:51
We're going to call that non-action "doing a Jag" from now on.

How can you type with both hands over your ears going "LA LA LA LA!"
 
181Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 21:57
It's easy to lead the deliberately ignorant to information.

But hate mixed with pride is a debilitating educational handicap.
 
182Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 22:01
I read it, I DON'T CARE ABOUT PADILLA. I care more about the border policeman in jail, being attacked by prisoners, because he shot a drug smuggler in the ass. It is a matter of priorities.
 
183Tree
      ID: 432352510
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 22:07
If they start doing it to non-terrorists I will be right with you guys.

they ARE doing it to non-terrorists, but, you said you don't care.

that's a huge problem that you claim to not care.
 
184walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 22:18
Look, we don't know more than the tip of the iceberg about who is in prison, or what, and how they are being treated. I'm guessing it's worse than we think rather than some leftish media exaggeration. We have approved "enhanced interrogation." We have done away with habeus corpus. We do have this extraordinary rendition. We do have secret prisons. We do have Gitmo. Do ya really think all of the people in these places are the right one's? Knowing what you know about the competence level of our admin, do you really think everyone in these awful places being interrogated in an enhanced way are already terrorists? Is this what it's come to? It's our policy...it's just amazing that we actually have subverted the Genova conventions and allow, no do, waterboarding. It's not right. We should all be upset with this. The assumption is that these folks deserve it, that it works, that there's a greater good...No, we should not have these policies. We have to seek a to a higher level. I will not dispute that there are rare personal situations when something like this will happen (the ol Jack Bauer torturing for info to find his kidnapped family members) out of emotional distress...but no, not our military, intelligence, police...not as a policy. That is not morally ok.

- walk
 
185walk
      ID: 259313119
      Sun, Mar 25, 2007, 22:26
March 19, 2007
Editorial Observer
It Wasn’t Just a Bad Idea. It May Have Been Against the Law.
By ADAM COHEN


The Bush administration has done a terrible job of explaining its decision to fire eight United States attorneys. Story after story has proved to be untrue: that the prosecutors who were fired were poor performers; that the White House was not involved in the purge. But the administration has been strangely successful in pushing its message that the scandal is at worst a political misdeed, not a criminal matter.

It is true, as the White House keeps saying, that United States attorneys serve “at the pleasure of the president,” which means he can dismiss them whenever he wants. But if the attorneys were fired to interfere with a valid prosecution, or to punish them for not misusing their offices, that may well have been illegal.

In law schools, it is common to give an exam called the “issue spotter,” in which students are given a set of facts and asked to identify all the legal issues and possible crimes. The facts about the purge are still emerging. But based on what is known — and with some help from Congressional staff members and Stephen Gillers, a law professor at New York University — it was not hard to spot that White House and Justice Department officials, and members of Congress, may have violated 18 U.S.C. §§ 1501-1520, the federal obstruction of justice statute.

Some crimes that a special prosecutor might one day look at:

1. Misrepresentations to Congress. The relevant provision, 18 U.S.C. § 1505, is very broad. It is illegal to lie to Congress, and also to “impede” it in getting information. Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty indicated to Congress that the White House’s involvement in firing the United States attorneys was minimal, something that Justice Department e-mail messages suggest to be untrue.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales made his own dubious assertion to Congress: “I would never, ever make a change in a United States attorney position for political reasons.”

The administration appears to be trying to place all of the blame on Mr. Gonzales’s chief of staff, Kyle Sampson, who resigned after reportedly failing to inform top Justice Department officials about the White House’s role in the firings. If Mr. Sampson withheld the information from Mr. McNulty, who then misled Congress, Mr. Sampson may have violated § 1505.

But Mr. Sampson’s lawyer now says other top Justice Department officials knew of the White House’s role. Senator Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York, said last week that “Kyle Sampson will not be the next Scooter Libby, the next fall guy.” Congress will be looking for evidence that Mr. Gonzales and Mr. McNulty knew that what they told Congress was false or misleading.

Convictions of this kind are not common, but they happen. Just ask former White House aide David Safavian, who was convicted last year of making false statements to a Senate committee.

2. Calling the Prosecutors. As part of the Sarbanes-Oxley reforms, Congress passed an extremely broad obstruction of justice provision, 18 U.S.C. § 1512 (c), which applies to anyone who corruptly “obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so,” including U.S. attorney investigations.

David Iglesias, the New Mexico United States attorney, says Senator Pete Domenici, Republican of New Mexico, called him and asked whether he intended to bring indictments in a corruption case against Democrats before last November’s election. Mr. Iglesias said he “felt pressured” by the call. If members of Congress try to get a United States attorney to indict people he wasn’t certain he wanted to indict, or try to affect the timing of an indictment, they may be violating the law.

3. Witness Tampering. 18 U.S.C. § 1512 (b) makes it illegal to intimidate Congressional witnesses. Michael Elston, Mr. McNulty’s chief of staff, contacted one of the fired attorneys, H. E. Cummins, and suggested, according to Mr. Cummins, that if he kept speaking out, there would be retaliation. Mr. Cummins took the call as a threat, and sent an e-mail message to other fired prosecutors warning them of it. Several of them told Congress that if Mr. Elston had placed a similar call to one of their witnesses in a criminal case, they would have opened an investigation of it.

4. Firing the Attorneys. United States attorneys can be fired whenever a president wants, but not, as § 1512 (c) puts it, to corruptly obstruct, influence, or impede an official proceeding.

Let’s take the case of Carol Lam, United States attorney in San Diego. The day the news broke that Ms. Lam, who had already put one Republican congressman in jail, was investigating a second one, Mr. Sampson wrote an e-mail message referring to the “real problem we have right now with Carol Lam.” He said it made him think that it was time to start looking for a replacement. Congress has also started investigating the removal of Fred Black, the United States attorney in Guam, who was replaced when he began investigating the Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Anyone involved in firing a United States attorney to obstruct or influence an official proceeding could have broken the law.

Much more needs to be learned, and Senator Patrick Leahy, the Vermont Democrat who leads the Judiciary Committee, has been admirably firm about insisting that he will get sworn testimony from Karl Rove and other key players. It is far too soon to say that anyone committed a crime, and it may well be that no one has. But if this were a law school issue spotter, any student who could not identify any laws that may have been broken would get an “F.”
 
186Perm Dude
      ID: 21230268
      Mon, Mar 26, 2007, 10:58
Hoover is smiling
 
187walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Mar 26, 2007, 12:57
Novak says...
 
188walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Mar 26, 2007, 13:09
UA Attorney faced questions before firing
 
189walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Mar 26, 2007, 16:31
Waxman Provides Precedents for Subpoenas of White House Staff
 
190Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Mon, Mar 26, 2007, 22:33
If any USA should have been excoriated, especially by conservatives, it would have been Noel Hillman. After letting Sandy Berger get off with a slap on the wrist, and whitewashing Hillary Clinton's 2000 senate campaign contributions, he's not replaced, he's promoted to take Sam Alito's place on the federal bench.

Someone explain that to me.
 
191walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Mar 27, 2007, 11:39
March 27, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Prosecution Complex
By NEAL KATYAL
Washington


IN 1999, when the Independent Counsel Act (the law that gave Kenneth Starr and Lawrence Walsh their mandates) was expiring, I was given the job of writing the new Justice Department rules for the appointment of a special prosecutor since the department would once again be responsible for overseeing such investigations.

There was one hypothetical to worry about once the Independent Counsel Act lapsed: a case in which the attorney general herself and her deputy were suspected of possible misconduct. The rules were therefore written to vest the decision about whether to appoint a special prosecutor in the top Justice Department official not embroiled in the controversy.

Today, the only way to get to the bottom of the United States attorney scandal — which involved the administration’s firing of nearly 10 percent of America’s top prosecutors — is to use these rules and appoint a special prosecutor. The nightmare has now come true.

It is unclear whether any criminal wrongdoing has occurred in this case. Some administration critics claim obstruction of justice. Others, including Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, insist that no wrong was done. A sense of justice, and commitment to the American process, requires that we credit the explanation of our nation’s chief law enforcement officer — but only until an independent investigation concludes its work and agrees. As 500-year-old bedrock legal principle dictates, no one can be a judge in his own cause — not even, of course, an attorney general.

The special counsel regulations are not written with the presumption that someone is guilty, but create a process by which a case is evaluated fairly by a prosecutor. Bringing in a lawyer from outside the government ensures that the prosecutor harbors no desire to please his superiors.

Using a special counsel here would have a critical advantage apart from assuring the nation of an independent investigation. A special counsel would almost certainly gather more information than Congress. The federal courts are not as reluctant to pierce executive secrecy and privilege claims when they are facing requests by prosecutors (as Richard Nixon found out the hard way). Congress, by contrast, would have a difficult time obtaining internal White House testimony, records and e-mail messages.

There is also a practical law-enforcement advantage. Right now, no witness with information about wrongdoing wants to tell his entire story for fear of incriminating himself. Congress can grant immunity to a witness but is unlikely to do so and risk interfering with a potential criminal investigation. At present, players with information have no incentive to “flip” and give all of their evidence. The appointment of a prosecutor gives them someone to deal with.

It is no answer for the administration to assert that no crimes were committed and therefore no counsel should be appointed. If that is so obvious, there is everything to be gained by having an independent prosecutor make that determination.

Unfortunately, both sides have incentives to resist such a proposal. The Democratic Congress may want to run the show, delaying a resolution for months and leading to a distracting constitutional showdown about executive secrecy. Members of Congress might also want to use the scandal to highlight the politicization of the Department of Justice in other matters — tobacco litigation, terrorism investigations and so forth. (The fact is, though, that because a special counsel would investigate only criminal wrongdoing in the United States attorney scandal, appointing one would give Congress more time to focus on these other matters.)

The administration, of course, has everything to fear from independent investigations, as Lewis Libby discovered. But that, ultimately, is what our system is about. Last week, President Bush complained that his administration should not have to endure a “show trial” in Congress. There’s a way to make sure those words are never said again.

Neal Katyal, a professor of law at Georgetown, was an adviser to the deputy attorney general from 1998 to 1999.
 
192Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Mar 27, 2007, 12:16
 
193Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Thu, Mar 29, 2007, 19:08
San Diego FBI head quits

SAN DIEGO – San Diego FBI chief Dan Dzwilewski, who was rebuked by superiors for publicly defending ousted U.S. Attorney Carol Lam, has announced his retirement.

Dzwilewski had said Lam's firing was political and would adversely affect ongoing corruption cases.


Maybe this is one of the border guards who complained about Lam.

SAN DIEGO -- Sentencing was scheduled Monday for a former Customs and Border Protection officer who admitted allowing hundreds of illegal immigrants to be smuggled through his inspection lane in return for cash and gifts.

Richard Elizalda, 56, pleaded guilty last September to one count of bribery of a public official and two counts of bringing in illegal aliens for financial gain.

Elizalda and seven co-defendants were charged last June in a 15-count indictment alleging bribery, conspiracy, bringing in illegal aliens for financial gain, importation of marijuana, possession of marijuana with intent to distribute, filing a false tax return and criminal forfeiture.


Elizalda admitted he received between $70,000 and $120,000 in U.S. currency and benefits from members of an alien-smuggling organization, operated by two of his co-defendants, for not enforcing U.S. immigration laws.

Elizalda admitted that he text-messaged his primary lane assignment -- in code -- to the co-defendants so they and other members of their organization could bring illegal immigrants into the United States without inspection.


Maybe Jag can enlighten us as to what cases he thought Lam should have been fired for not prosecuting. I'm getting tired of listing high profile cases that she did, and did successfully.






 
194walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 13:34
Bush's History of Justice
 
195Perm Dude
      ID: 434213
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 16:17
Sadly, walk, the Administration's response to all of this is "we did nothing illegal."

The first step to determining ethical behavior should be the question "Is it legal?" But that should never be the last question.

This administration has changed longstanding policies, re-interpreted laws on the books, or had laws changed, all in order to try to make reality fit their politics. From politicizing the Justice Department to suppressing EPA reports about climate change (including simply refusing to follow the law, which caused SCOTUS to slap them around a bit today) to the invention of voter fraud as an excuse to suppress votes, this is an Administration who knows what it wants and doesn't care if the facts or the public say otherwise. Even in very strong terms.
 
196walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 16:36
Oooooooooo, I love that line PD, "it should never be the last question." Exactly, exactly, exactly. Making the justice department blatantly partisan, with folks being named, evaluated and replaced based on their loyalty to the administration's priorities is bad. It's not like circumventing the geneva conventions or getting rid of habeus corpus. No administration would ever do that (wait a minute...), but it's bad. It is very transparent, very selfish, and the defense ("no laws were broken," until you can prove what Wilson and Domeneci did) is very arrogant. They don't care. They think they know better and these sacrifices (in partisanship, civil liberties, etc.) are ultimately what is going to be good for the country. Well, their track record stinks. The nerve for the bushies to be so arrogant fcuk up after fcuk up (me stealing from the most recent Bill Maher: "president fcuk up" -- he is!). Yet they continue. Gotta go as far as they can so that something sticks before some, but not all of it, gets turned back in 2009. This one with the US Attorneys though really feels yucky cos of how this mistake is just cumulative with all of the others. And if the Dems had not won Congress, we might not even know about it.

- walk
 
197walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 16:44
And, to your point, PD, selfishly creating policies that are inconsistent with public sentiment. I am so sick and tired of these guys. I feel like our administration is some kinda monarchy. They make all the rules. And if they don't like what the real law makers come up with, they threaten to veto with disdain and false allegations. Bush and co were conditioned by the lame Republican congress who just went along the last four years, and now the Dems are struggling to push back, and I think they are pushing back on everything, which may not be wise, but they may be thinking that by doing so, it'll just stop the guy. Stall the mofo. And then someone with reason and diplomatic skills and an open mind can run the country in 2009.

Dems to widen conflict with Bush

- walk
 
198Perm Dude
      ID: 434213
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 16:53
I love that line PD

Thanks! It is from a speech I wrote but never gave here in Mt. Pocono. Glad I found a use for it...

I'm pleased the Dems are finally taking the offensive. I don't know why it has taken them so long--the American public is squarely behind Democratic policies, not the Administration ones. But I think the public is also of the mind that they don't care which party fixes the problem, so long as progress is made.
 
199walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 17:07
April 1, 2007
Ex-Aide Says He’s Lost Faith in Bush
By JIM RUTENBERG
AUSTIN, Tex., March 29


In 1999, Matthew Dowd became a symbol of George W. Bush’s early success at positioning himself as a Republican with Democratic appeal.

A top strategist for the Texas Democrats who was disappointed by the Bill Clinton years, Mr. Dowd was impressed by the pledge of Mr. Bush, then governor of Texas, to bring a spirit of cooperation to Washington. He switched parties, joined Mr. Bush’s political brain trust and dedicated the next six years to getting him to the Oval Office and keeping him there. In 2004, he was appointed the president’s chief campaign strategist.

Looking back, Mr. Dowd now says his faith in Mr. Bush was misplaced.

In a wide-ranging interview here, Mr. Dowd called for a withdrawal from Iraq and expressed his disappointment in Mr. Bush’s leadership.

He criticized the president as failing to call the nation to a shared sense of sacrifice at a time of war, failing to reach across the political divide to build consensus and ignoring the will of the people on Iraq. He said he believed the president had not moved aggressively enough to hold anyone accountable for the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and that Mr. Bush still approached governing with a “my way or the highway” mentality reinforced by a shrinking circle of trusted aides.

“I really like him, which is probably why I’m so disappointed in things,” he said. He added, “I think he’s become more, in my view, secluded and bubbled in.”

In speaking out, Mr. Dowd became the first member of Mr. Bush’s inner circle to break so publicly with him.

He said his decision to step forward had not come easily. But, he said, his disappointment in Mr. Bush’s presidency is so great that he feels a sense of duty to go public given his role in helping Mr. Bush gain and keep power.

Mr. Dowd, a crucial part of a team that cast Senator John Kerry as a flip-flopper who could not be trusted with national security during wartime, said he had even written but never submitted an op-ed article titled “Kerry Was Right,” arguing that Mr. Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat and 2004 presidential candidate, was correct in calling last year for a withdrawal from Iraq.

“I’m a big believer that in part what we’re called to do — to me, by God; other people call it karma — is to restore balance when things didn’t turn out the way they should have,” Mr. Dowd said. “Just being quiet is not an option when I was so publicly advocating an election.”

Mr. Dowd’s journey from true believer to critic in some ways tracks the public arc of Mr. Bush’s political fortunes. But it is also an intensely personal story of a political operative who at times, by his account, suppressed his doubts about his professional role but then confronted them as he dealt with loss and sorrow in his own life.

In the last several years, as he has gradually broken his ties with the Bush camp, one of Mr. Dowd’s premature twin daughters died, he was divorced, and he watched his oldest son prepare for deployment to Iraq as an Army intelligence specialist fluent in Arabic. Mr. Dowd said he had become so disillusioned with the war that he had considered joining street demonstrations against it, but that his continued personal affection for the president had kept him from joining protests whose anti-Bush fervor is so central.

Mr. Dowd, 45, said he hoped in part that by coming forward he would be able to get a message through to a presidential inner sanctum that he views as increasingly isolated. But, he said, he holds out no great hope. He acknowledges that he has not had a conversation with the president.

Dan Bartlett, the White House counselor, said Mr. Dowd’s criticism is reflective of the national debate over the war.

“It’s an issue that divides people,” Mr. Bartlett said. “Even people that supported the president aren’t immune from having their own feelings and emotions.”

He said he disagreed with Mr. Dowd’s description of the president as isolated and with his position on withdrawal. He said Mr. Dowd, a friend, has “sometimes expressed these sentiments” in private conversation, though “not in such detail.”

During the interview with Mr. Dowd on a slightly overcast afternoon in downtown Austin, he was a far quieter man than the cigar-chomping general that he was during Mr. Bush’s 2004 campaign.

Soft-spoken and somewhat melancholy, he wore jeans, a T-shirt and sandals in an office devoid of Bush memorabilia save for a campaign coffee mug and a photograph of the first couple with his oldest son, Daniel. The photograph was taken one week before the 2004 election, and one day before Daniel was to go to boot camp.

Over Mexican food at a restaurant that was only feet from the 2000 campaign headquarters, and later at his office just up the street, Mr. Dowd recounted his political and personal journey. “It’s amazing,” he said. “In five years, I’ve only traveled 300 feet, but it feels like I’ve gone around the world, where my head is.”

Mr. Dowd said he decided to become a Republican in 1999 and joined Mr. Bush after watching him work closely with Bob Bullock, the Democratic lieutenant governor of Texas, who was a political client of Mr. Dowd and a mentor to Mr. Bush.

“It’s almost like you fall in love,” he said. “I was frustrated about Washington, the inability for people to get stuff done and bridge divides. And this guy’s personality — he cared about education and taking a different stand on immigration.”

Mr. Dowd established himself as an expert at interpreting polls, giving Karl Rove, the president’s closest political adviser, and the rest of the Bush team guidance as they set out to woo voters, slash opponents and exploit divisions between Democratic-leaning states and Republican-leaning ones.

In television interviews in 2004, Mr. Dowd said that Mr. Kerry’s campaign was proposing “a weak defense,” and that the voters “trust this president more than they trust Senator Kerry on Iraq.”

But he was starting to have his own doubts by then, he said.

He said he thought Mr. Bush handled the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks well but “missed a real opportunity to call the country to a shared sense of sacrifice.”

He was dumbfounded when Mr. Bush did not fire Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld after revelations that American soldiers had tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

Several associates said Mr. Dowd chafed under Mr. Rove’s leadership. Mr. Dowd said he had not spoken to Mr. Rove in months but would not discuss their relationship in detail.

Mr. Dowd said, in retrospect, he was in denial.

“When you fall in love like that,” he said, “and then you notice some things that don’t exactly go the way you thought, what do you do? Like in a relationship, you say ‘No no, no, it’ll be different.’ ”

He said he clung to the hope that Mr. Bush would get back to his Texas style of governing if he won. But he saw no change after the 2004 victory.

He describes as further cause for doubt two events in the summer of 2005: the administration’s handling of Hurricane Katrina and the president’s refusal, around the same time that he was entertaining the bicyclist Lance Armstrong at his Crawford ranch, to meet with the war protester Cindy Sheehan, whose son died in Iraq.

“I had finally come to the conclusion that maybe all these things along do add up,” he said. “That it’s not the same, it’s not the person I thought.”

He said that during his work on the 2006 re-election campaign of Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger of California, which had a bipartisan appeal, he began to rethink his approach to elections.

“I think we should design campaigns that appeal not to 51 percent of the people,” he said, “but bring the country together as a whole.”

He said that he still believed campaigns must do what it takes to win, but that he was never comfortable with the most hard-charging tactics. He is now calling for “gentleness” in politics. He said that while he tried to keep his own conduct respectful during political combat, he wanted to “do my part in fixing fissures that I may have been part of.”

His views against the war began to harden last spring when, in a personal exercise, he wrote a draft opinion article and found himself agreeing with Mr. Kerry’s call for withdrawal from Iraq. He acknowledged that the expected deployment of his son Daniel was an important factor.

He said the president’s announcement last fall that he was re-nominating the former United Nations ambassador John R. Bolton, whose confirmation Democrats had already refused, was further proof to him that Mr. Bush was not seeking consensus with Democrats.

He said he came to believe Mr. Bush’s views were hardening, with the reinforcement of his inner circle. But, he said, the person “who is ultimately responsible is the president.” And he gradually ventured out with criticism, going so far as declaring last month in a short essay in Texas Monthly magazine that Mr. Bush was losing “his gut-level bond with the American people,” and breaking more fully in this week’s interview.

“If the American public says they’re done with something, our leaders have to understand what they want,” Mr. Dowd said. “They’re saying, ‘Get out of Iraq.’ ”

Mr. Dowd’s friends from Mr. Bush’s orbit said they understood his need to speak out. “Everyone is going to reflect on the good and the bad, and everything in between, in their own way,” said Nicolle Wallace, communications director of Mr. Bush’s 2004 campaign, a post she also held at the White House until last summer. “And I certainly respect the way he’s doing it — these are his true thoughts from a deeply personal place.” Ms. Wallace said she continued to have “enormous gratitude” for her years with Mr. Bush.

Mr. Bartlett, the White House counselor, said he understood, too, though he said he strongly disagreed with Mr. Dowd’s assessment. “Do we know our critics will try to use this to their advantage? Yes,” he said. “Is that perfect? No. But you can respectfully disagree with someone who has been supportive of you.”

Mr. Dowd does not seem prepared to put his views to work in 2008. The only candidate who appeals to him, he said, is Senator Barack Obama, Democrat of Illinois, because of what Mr. Dowd called his message of unity. But, he said, “I wouldn’t be surprised if I wasn’t walking around in Africa or South America doing something that was like mission work.”

He added, “I do feel a calling of trying to re-establish a level of gentleness in the world.”
 
200Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 18:55
So much BS to rspond to, I don't know where to start. First PD, America is not squarely behind your Liberal policies. America feels the war was mismanaged and that the is the difference maker in Bush's polls. Liberalism is still a dirty word to most people, despite years of forced socialist indoctrination in schools, blantant liberal bias in the media and constant propaganda from left-wing politicians.

Ethics? You want to talk about ethics, when the leaders of your party are an egoistical, pork making, KKK member, a drunken murderer, a self-obsessed bitch, a class warfare socialist, a back-stabbing fake war hero, in fact I can not think of even one Democrat with ethics, since Gephardt left. How about policing your own party, the dude with the frozen money is still in office and was even appointed to a committee.

Walk, after reading your link I am even more sure that firing those criminal cuddling AGs was the right move. Hell, I believe there needs to be more firings after reading your link.
 
201sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 20:37
Liberalism, and socialism...are 2 different animals. You have been told this, repeatedly, yet you insist in lumping them as thought they are one-in-the-same. Until you learn WTF Liberalism is....why not do the world a favor, and STFU?
 
202Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 22:55
Yeah, very different. Two movements going to the exact same place with one being slightly more impatient than the other to get there.
 
203Perm Dude
      ID: 434213
      Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 22:56
First PD, America is not squarely behind your Liberal policies

I didn't say that. It sure is easy to knockdown strawmen...
 
204Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 08:30
Dahlia Lithwick and Jack Goldstein:

"1. Politics is inevitable in the enforcement of law (although politics and partisanship are not the same thing).

"Among a president's many prerogatives is the right to set a legal agenda that is, by definition, political. Democratic presidents may emphasize civil rights cases, and Republicans may favor immigration cases. Democrats go easy on the environment, and Republicans are tough on crime and voter fraud. There is no such thing as law enforcement that is distinct from such political promises and priorities. As Cox noted in the 1974 debates, in most cases "the treatment of the law and facts simply cannot be separated from ideas of economic, social, or political—in the highest sense of the word—philosophy." He added that "the president should have the power and responsibility for making these decisions when they are important enough for him to make them, or at least should have someone who is attuned to his philosophy of government making them."

"Permitting policy priorities to inform law enforcement is not the same thing as permitting partisanship to do so. Sorenson tried to unpack the difference when he explained that the attorney general's "decisions on the prosecution of cases or the employment and promotion of attorneys should be based on law and merit, and not on considerations of party affiliation, political image-making, or White House approval or influence." But Sorensen was savvy enough to know that "politics is necessarily tied up with policy, with one's concept of the public interest and response to the public will. A president who campaigns on a 'law and order' issue, or a narcotics or civil rights or organized crime issue, must not be confronted with an attorney general of sharply differing views appointed for a fixed term by his predecessor."

"In other words, if you concede that the president sets the agenda when it comes to criminal priorities, you cannot favor hampering him with a chief lawyer who does not share those priorities or who affirmatively works to advance different ones.

 
205Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 09:40
Toral, do you think that the argument is that people want the Justice Department to be free of politics entirely? It seems to me that many are arguing that politics is playing way too heavy a hand there, which is a different argument.

It is like complaining of some of the huge pork-laden bills in Congress, and then getting a Ted Stevens-like response that there will always be some pork. Besides, of course, the fact that Stevens often misses the larger point, the level of partisanship in Justice has reached a level that seems (at best) extremely unhealthy.
 
206sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 13:15
Baldwin...you're just as blind to reality as ever. It is however, refreshing to know that some things will never change.
 
207Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 13:37
Toral, do you think that the argument is that people want the Justice Department to be free of politics entirely? It seems to me that many are arguing that politics is playing way too heavy a hand there, which is a different argument.

In some of the posts and links in this thread, there have been, seemingly, objections to the Justice Department setting its own law enforcement priorities (e.g., the importance of voter intimidation vs. voter fraud) and adopting its own interpretations of the law (subject of course to courts deciding otherwise). Some of the objections seem to go beyond objecting to the specific content of the Administration's actions.

The people who are objecting to improper politicization only are using language that makes that unclear.

Toral
 
208Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:00
Well said, Toral. I was going to address the civil rights attorneys or as John Rich calls them in Walks op-ed "Long time civil servants" being butt-hurt that some AG had the nerve to want to prosecute anyone for voter fraud. I was going to post a link about ACORN and Democrat voter fraud, but I am having a hard time deciding which one to post, the one for Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Colorado, Ohio or Florida and that was just the first page on Google.
 
209Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:09
Toral, I think you are misreading the objections. Certainly you've overlooked my own, and Bud Cummins, who (like all the AGs) seemed happy to go quietly until the Justice Department started lying about why they were fired.

Jag: You might as well post the links, so we can knock them down. Again, you miss the points being raised. By a lot. Iglesias was fired (according to the after-the-fact excuses by Justice) for not filing charges against Democrats in a close election. The fact that the charges were bogus seems to have escaped you.
 
210Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:34
Toral, I think you are misreading the objections. Certainly you've overlooked my own, and Bud Cummins, who (like all the AGs) seemed happy to go quietly until the Justice Department started lying about why they were fired.

Well, I wasn't intending to criticize anyone personally, just to post a linked column to help people remember that "political" decisions in the sense of decisions based on the Administration's politico-legal philosophy are a completely legitimate, necessary, part of the administration of justice.

But I didn't overlook yours; I was confused when you said in 195:

The first step to determining ethical behavior should be the question "Is it legal?" But that should never be the last question.

This administration has changed longstanding policies, re-interpreted laws on the books, or had laws changed, all in order to try to make reality fit their politics.


I don't know what to make of the phrase "to try to make reality make their politics", but the bolded statement above seemed to imply that there was something wrong, indeed unethical, with the Administration changing policies, re-interpreting laws, or having laws changed in accordance with their legal philosophy. If I'm wrong about that, I'm happy to hear it.

Likewise there you accused them of just refusing to follow the law, when their interpretation of the EPA's mandate when they lost A 5-4 decision, indicating that the extent of the EPA's jurisdiction was indeed unclear; and of acting unethically in placing an emphasis on voter fraud prosecutions, which makes no sense unless you believe that the Administration is knowingly trying to concentrate resources on non-existent voter fraud, something there is no reason to believe has occurred. Or at least that's what I concluded you were saying, as best as I could understand it.

Slopping together legitimate (when and if proven) concerns with illegitimate ones just confuses the whole issue for me, so I wished to establish some clarity about the one point of the Administration's right to set its own policies and priorities.

Toral
 
211Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:42
Fair enough. I don't believe that we're still at the "illegitimate" state in demonstrating unethical behavior on the AG scandal. Lying about why these people were fired seems be enough (IMO) to make it a match.

[I don't think you really want to get into an argument about 5-4 decisions, do you? Surely you aren't trying to say that it isn't really a ruling? The case itself was about the EPA refusing to follow the law. The Administration felt that the EPA could just sit the whole thing out.]
 
212walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:43
Nice litany of allegations in #200, Jag. Yeah, the Dems are the unethical, murdering, racist, blah blah blah one's. The others who have been indicted, making highly partisan cronyism decisions, getting involved in scandals, making absurd allegations about voter fraud, torturing people, spying on our own people and blah blah blah, while at the same time completely fcuking up our country are the good guys.

Must be a reaction to the liberal media, liberal congress, and self-absorbed liberal speaker bitch. I dunno if she is a bitch, but for sure, we have a Dick calling the shots in the face and either a bobo or a zealot listening to him.

There's quite a bit more Americans want than just an END to the war (not just some verdict that it was "mismanaged") including ebryonic stem cell research and Gitmo being closed. But who cares? Ten years from now, history will show that Dick and George were very presient in staying the course with their strategy. They know what's good for America.

"I will promise to veto Congress' bill...now Congress ought to do their job and send me a bill (they have) that has no strings attached." Who's cutting off funds then?

"I'm on my way to Crawford for vacation. Congress should get off their vacationing butts and get back to work and deliver me the bill I want."

"Why do we even need a Congress, Dick? I mean, I'm just going to veto and blame the Dems if they don't do what I want...why don't I just write the laws and sign them? It'd cut out the middle man and make things go smoother. What bureaucracy!"

- walk
 
213Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:56
I don't think you really want to get into an argument about 5-4 decisions, do you? Surely you aren't trying to say that it isn't really a ruling? The case itself was about the EPA refusing to follow the law.

The bolded phrase above implies that they knew their legal duty and unethically refused to perform it. The other possibility was that they in good faith interpreted the law as saying that they had no jurisdiction, no duty, and that their interpretation lost only 5-4 suggesting that they had some grounds for their beliefs -- i.e., 4 SCOTUS judges thought they were right, so why assume that they acted knowing that they were wrong?

Toral
 
214Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:58
The bolded phrase above implies that they knew their legal duty and unethically refused to perform it.

Take out "unethically" and you have my point exactly. SCOTUS doesn't (and didn't) make any ethical determinations.
 
215Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 16:00
What makes you think they were any more knowledgeable about the law than the 4 SCOTUS judges who agreed with them?

Toral
 
216Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 16:06
You mean more than the 5 who were? Knowledge of the law doesn't get you any more than your single vote on the bench. No one has argued that the majority vote indicates a larger concentration of legal knowledge. Especially when some dissenting members (Roberts, in particular), weren't focusing on the question at all, but upon standing.
 
217Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 16:09
You mean more than the 5 who were?

No, I mean the EPA administrators. Why would you assume that they ignored the law rather than that they misinterpreted it?

Toral
 
218Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 16:27
It isn't that they just ignored the law. They rejected that they were in a position to regulate carbon dioxide emissions, partly because of the Administration's belief that carbon dioxide emissions are not connected to human health or climate change.

Despite the Clean Air Act's clear authority, the EPA's position was that it need not act even if it had the authority to do so.

pd
 
219Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 16:44
It isn't that they just ignored the law

Well, your statement that they refused to follow the law was what I originally queried.

Your own link "Despite the Clean Air Act's clear authority..." shows that their authority to regulate was uncertain in their minds:
the agency said Congress hasn't given it authority to regulate greenhouse gases, regardless of what the scientific evidence showed....Senator James Inhofe, an Oklahoma Republican who is chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, said the EPA correctly concluded that Congress didn't intend to regulate carbon-dioxide emissions through the Clean Air Act.
It seems to me that you are still trying to make their different position on law or policy into a matter of intentional, unethical, wrongdoing, a position that seems to be wrong. I merely note that having to sort through piles of unjustified accusations of unethical behaviour makes it more difficult to isolate any genuine issues of possible wrongdoing; which is inconvenient because the actual facts of all of the various charges against the DOJ are difficult to ascertain, so it is helpful to be able to avoid being led down false trails.

Toral
 
220Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 16:55
I really don't think you want to let Inhofe lead any debate on pollutants, Toral! Inhofe was wrong, plain and simple. And he's not an EPA Administrator or member of the Executive Branch, either.

The policy difference is what appears to have made the EPA refuse to collect the information. But refuse they did. And their reasons we're because they didn't have the authority, it was that even if they did have the authority it wasn't going to act.
 
221Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 17:13
I really don't think you want to let Inhofe lead any debate on pollutants, Toral! Inhofe was wrong, plain and simple.

In this case I'm happy to cite Inhofe because it doesn't matter whether he's right or wrong. The question (the question raised when you framed this as a matter of ethics/wrongdoing) is whether he -- and EPA administrators who took the same view -- adopted an interpretation they knew was wrong. If not, it's a question of wisdom or competence or ability, not one of ethics/wrongdoing.

And their reasons we're because they didn't have the authority, it was that even if they did have the authority it wasn't going to act.

As I have just cited, they had multiple reasons, one of which was that they hadn't the authority. And I have seen nothing said here that suggests that they knew or believed that the policy considerations they cited were an insufficient reason to refuse to regulate. It seems to me implausible that they would knowingly violate the law. What is the point, if they know they are going to be reversed? You seem to be taking the default position that any questionable Administration action was been taken unethically/wrongfully. It would be futile to attempt to change your mind on that; but for those who do not take that position, it is for the accusers to establish that the EPA knowingly broke the law.

Toral

 
222Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 17:27
PD, the fact you would state "You might as well post the links, so we can knock them down." shows an extreme bias and an unwilliness to change opinion despite the facts, a charge leveled at me almost daily. I had started to post a link from each of the 38 states where ACORN had voter fraud, but a misclick lost the enire post, so I will just use this one link.

Voter Fraud
 
223Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 17:30
you seem to be taking the default position that any questionable Administration action was been taken unethically/wrongfully

Perhaps the blizzard of bad behavior by this Administration makes it seem this way, but my litany of unethical acts by the Administration is meant to be representative but not universal.

In this EPA case, the fact that they gave multiple reasons is moot. The only one that matters is that they had the authority and refused to act. Everything else boils down to "even if we wanted to we wouldn't." You seem to believe that the policy conserations were enough for them to refuse, but I don't believe any Executive Branch can refuse to follow the law because of policy differences.

Now, if you'd like, I'll be happy to cite unethical behavior (even just within the EPA) to demonstrate unethical behavior. Lemme know.
 
224sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 17:31
jeeeeesus, talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

Jag..the facts, do not support your unyielding support of AG Gonzo. Not for one minute. Even shrub has figured that out, and hasnt publicly spoken in support of his pet.

Like many others before him, Gonzo is about to find that he was used by this admin, right up until he became useless, then was cast aside like so much crap.
 
225Perm Dude
      ID: 4132537
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 17:36
Now, Jag, try to draw the line to the 8 AGs in question. Take your time.
 
226Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 17:56
Failure to investigate or prosecute voter fraud was one of the main if not the main reason for the firings.

Voter Fraud
 
227sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 18:00
Failure to investigate or prosecute voter fraud was one of the main if not the main reason for the firings.



Failure to investigate or prosecute partisan allegations of non-existent voter fraud was one of the main if not the main reason for the firings.

There...fixed it for you.

 
228Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 18:07
So this is a mass conspiracy by 38 states against ACORN? To be honest, I was only familiar with the Florida case, then I researched it and found it to be a nationwide crime.
 
229sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 18:15
More like a conspiracy potentially, by the RNC to discredit Dems in close races during the mid-term elections.

election law blog


Justice Dept recognizes AGs work in Voter Fraud cases, before firing him over voter fraud cases


Firings part of a 2008 election scheme by the WH?


Jag..there are countless blogs on either side of the battle which can be quoted. By themselves, none of them mean diddly. Taken in context though with the countless news accounts which have come forth over the past few weeks, and there is no way, that a truly non-partisan mind, can continue to support the WH and AG Gonzales on this issue.
 
230Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 18:21
The ACORN scandals were not some blog related item. I had originally posted a limk from each state's local newspaper. This would be huge news if it were a Republican organization, but since ACORN is predominantly Black it is completely ignored by the mainstream media.
 
231Perm Dude
      ID: 26332316
      Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 18:32
You are chasing a red herring, Jag. The Justice Department made up those reasons for the firings, after the fact, and in spite of excellent reviews. At times, in fact, the Justice Department thought so much of how the AGs were doing that they asked them to conduct classes on the very topics that they later said those AGs were deficient in.

Chase it all you want. You won't make the charges against the specific AGs stick.
 
232Perm Dude
      ID: 453049
      Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 23:12
Sen Hatch doing what he can to try to make this a non-issue.

He and Limbaugh apparently are not above lying to try to nip this in the bud.

Unfortunately for the Administration, Monica Goodling's refusal to appear before Congress is likely to drag this out even further. IMO Congress can probably get her to come by offering immunity, but that may not be enough to overcome the Executive Branch's bias against begrudging Congress any power over them. Also, she might, in fact, be the "big fish" they are looking for.

In the meantime, at least one cover story will trigger an investigation on its own.

I don't know if those who put together this whole scheme didn't think their lies would come to light, or if they didn't care.
 
233Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 01:30
You can pick your reasons for them being fired, but the only common denominator is they all leaned to the Left. And if a Democrat breaks the law, he should be indicted, A good example of this is ACORN. They are obviously getting a free pass because they are a minority group.

This entire issue shows the hypocrasy of the Democrats, they want to manufactor a crime to throw Republicans in jail, because the Republicans want those who committed a crime indicted. If the AGs don't have the balls to go after ACORN, like Iglesia, they should be fired.

Why don't you Liberals take up for ACORN, after all they are a minority and therefore, it is impossible for them to have committed crimes. It all has to be a conspiracy made by racists.
 
234Perm Dude
      ID: 453049
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 01:49
is they all leaned to the Left.

ROFL!!

And you know this--how? Because you think ACORN broke the law?

Keep them coming! We all need a break, now and then, from more serious political analysis and your irreverent posting is just the break we need from thinking.
 
235Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 03:16
How about addressing ACORN. They are or have been investigated in 38 states of voter fraud, yet the Liberals seem to want to ignore they exist.
 
236Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 07:22
PD

You have ever had an original thot of your own? You just accept the liberal media zeitgeist lock, stock and barrel. I am still waiting for you to ever see thru their crap. How much thot does it take you to regurgitate the zeitgeist? How much chance is there that you will ever challenge the 'received truth' from the media?
 
237Perm Dude
      ID: 353158
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 10:10
Jag, you want to start a thread about ACORN or perceived voting fraud by all means go ahead. This particular thread is about Gonzalez, including the developing US Attorney scandal. Neither you, nor "original" Baldwin are able to directly refute any of the ongoing problems with that scandal.

For Baldwin, of course, the problem is the "liberals." What a small mind, you've become. Predictable. When faced with specific evidence of Republican wrongdoing, you trot out your favorite from your word-of-the-day calendar of 1995 or so: "zeitgeist."

pd
 
238Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 10:30
Have you been paying attention PD? We have given many reasons for the firings, failure to prosecute voter fraud, immigration cases, drug shipments under 500lbs etc...you just choose to ignore them and create your own.
 
239Perm Dude
      ID: 353158
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 11:40
Jag, try to concentrate: If a particular USA has been said to have been fired for a particular reason (say, Iglasias), then it doesn't matter if someone else was fired for a different reason. You are either intentionally confusing this in you mind, or you don't care and are simply enjoying the fog machine the Administration is putting out.
 
240nathanhj
      ID: 29335517
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 19:35
Jag,

They may have been investigated in 38 states, which I think is a bullshit number, personally, but have they ever been indicted or even convicted of knowingly commiting registration fraud or knowingly getting someone to commit election fraud?

No.

Some of their employees have been indicted for fraudlently filling out voter registration applications so they could look like they were working when they really weren't.

All of those employees were, by the way, fired by ACORN and turned into local elections and law enforcement officials. Organizationally there is no history of fraud, but there is a lot of of history of ACCUSING ACORN of fraud by people scared of what it would mean for more citizens to participate in elections.

Show me a history of convictions of fraud in the US (and you can't because only about 30 people in the last 5 years in the entire country - during which over 250 million votes were cast - have been convicted of any kind of voter fraud) and then we'll start to worry about the "epidemic" of cheating supposedly out there.
 
241Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 20:29
Karl Rove wanted Iglesia fired for mishandling of voter fraud cases, including ACORN.

Iglesia voter fraud

Weh said he (Rove) became so upset by Iglesias' handling of voter fraud complaints stemming from the 2004 election that, in 2005, he told a regional political liaison with Rove's office that Iglesias needed to go. Weh told The Tribune on Sunday that he followed up that conversation in December, when he asked Rove at a White House function whether anything was going to be done about Iglesias.

Rove told him Iglesias was "gone," Weh said.



An employee for the nonprofit, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) was fired after she successfully registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. The group, which paid its employees according to how many people they registered, said the employee was fired for altering forms to get credit for other people's work.

ACORN pays there employees by the number of voter registers they get, until they start some type of check and balance, they will always be crooked. Republicans could never get away with such blatant voter fraud.

 
242sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 21:01
You may want to retract your last statement. A Rep voter registration drive was found to be thick with fraud, following the last Pres Election. (details excape me atm, but it was talked about at lewngth on these forums at the time. Rampant conflicts of interest...calling registered Dems IIRC and telling them their voter registration was invalid so dont bother trying to vote, or some such.)

Yet again though Jag...you dodge the query. Your comments though invite the question...WTF was Rove doing making decisions re US Attorneys anyway? Anyone care to wgaer, whther the "handling of voter fraud allegations" which had Roves panties in a wad, were allegations which were baselss in point of fact? In which case, there was nothing for the USA to bother with.
 
243Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 21:37
Jag
ACORN pays there employees by the number of voter registers they get, until they start some type of check and balance, they will always be crooked. Republicans could never get away with such blatant voter fraud.

As far as I know, ACORN is specifically non-partisan. What does ACORN have to do with Democrats?

And regardiong that last sentence, I'm not sure what you mean. Dozens of ACORN employees lost their jobs and faced charges.

On the other hand, ever hear of Sproul & Associates?
In the months before the 2004 presidential election, a firm called Sproul & Associates launched voter registration drives in at least eight states, most of them swing states. The group--run by Nathan Sproul, former head of the Arizona Christian Coalition and the Arizona Republican Party--had been hired by the Republican National Committee.

Sproul got into a bit of trouble last fall when, in certain states, it came out that the firm was playing dirty tricks in order to suppress the Democratic vote: concealing their partisan agenda, tricking Democrats into registering as Republicans, surreptitiously re-registering Democrats and Independents as Republicans, and shredding Democratic registration forms.

The scandal got a moderate amount of local coverage in some states--and then the election was over. Now anyone who brought up Nathan Sproul, or any of the other massive crimes and improprieties committed on or prior to Election Day, was shrugged off as a dealer in "conspiracy theory."

It seems that Sproul did quite a lot of work for the Republicans. Exactly how much did he do? More specifically, how much did the RNC pay Sproul & Associates?

If you went online last week to look up how much money Sproul received from the Republicans in 2004, you would have found that, according to the party (whose figures had been posted by the Center for Responsive Politics), the firm was paid $488,957.

In fact, the RNC paid Sproul a great deal more than that. From an independent study of the original data filed by the Republicans with the Federal Election Commission, it is clear that Sproul was paid a staggering $8.3 million for its work against the Democrats.
Oops.

Well, surely, if all of this was occurring right under the nose - that is - UNDER THE EMPLOY of the RNC, then of course there must have been a federal investigation by a DOJ so bent on going after voter fraud, right?

What do you think?
 
244Perm Dude
      ID: 353158
      Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 23:04
Former advisor on ethics to AG Gonzales in hot water himself.

You just can't make this stuff up.
 
245Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 00:42
What does ACORN have to do with the Democrats?

Of the 100s of 1000s voters registered, my guess is the over/under, of those who voted Republican, would be about 8. Go ahead and give them a pass, I would expect nothing less.

I never heard about the firm you mentioned, MITH, and if someone can be trick into signing up Republican, when they are a Democrat, they have more serious issues than voting.
 
246Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 01:05
Go ahead and give them a pass, I would expect nothing less.

Who's giving them a pass? A pass for what? Dozens of their employees got nailed. Good! Its your observation about what this exemplifies that I'm asking about. You asked, "Republicans could never get away with such blatant voter fraud", [a] implying that ACORN is tied to Democrats (how?) and [b] claiming that Republicans cannot get away with blatent voter fraud (that was a tough one to crack).


Of the 100s of 1000s voters registered, my guess is the over/under, of those who voted Republican, would be about 8.

Is that the best answer I'll get for [a]? What makes you say this? You think I should just take your word on the stellar reputation for reliability you've built for yourself here?


I never heard about the firm you mentioned, MITH

Shocker.
 
247Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 03:02
MITH, do you want to debate if the sky is up or if water is wet? If you don't believe the vast vast vsat vast majority of those signed up by ACORN are Democrats, then you possess absolutely no reasoning power, none, zilch, zero and simply want to argue. It is not a point even worth debating.

I have tried to find the exact percentage on the web, but it seems it is not a statistic, they want released. I did find about a dozen more scandals and that ACORN is funded by Left-Wing organizations, but I am sure that is just a coincidence.

BTW, the grass is green. Would you like a link?
 
249Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 04:07
Honestly the only evidence I've seen to suggest that ACORN might be a group that is tied to the Democratic Party is the fact that they were targeted by the DOJ (which, I'l admit, might make me naive enough). But you highly certain for someone who can't offer a shred of evidence even that strong. Maybe you're right. I haven't debated or denied anything. I've only asked. Please humor me. Its not an unreasonable request.

From what little research I've done, ACORN's history indicates contempt toward both parties from the beginning. In 1980 they marched on the Democratic National Convention and demanded to meet with President Carter. In the early 1980s they sponsored the Reagan Ranches, which I vaguely remember. They marched on the white house in 1982 and staged their "culminating" Reagan Ranch in 1984 at the RNC.

There does seem to have been a working relationship on some level between them and Jesse Jackson in the 1980s.

In 1993 they lobbied for the Voter Registration Act.

In 1998 they helped form the Working Families Party. I'll certainly grant you that they are a very liberal group, but that doesn't mean they are aligned with the Democratic Party. From the looks of what Wikipedia has on them, they appear slightly less associated and aligned with the Democrats than the KKK has been with the Republicans over the same period of time.

Look, I don't know a lot about voter outreach programs but I tend to think that if they are registering their registrants (real and/or fake) with a political party, it will be with the party they are working for. Like how the Republican Party hired Sproul & Associates to sign up voters as registered Republicans. Since I can't find any evidence that ACORN was hired by the DNC (which obviously would be an easy-to-find fact within the right-leaning media if true) and since they are a nonprofit, I tend to think it was an independent outreach. Perhaps they registered voters with Working Families in NYS and wherever else they exist.

I'm not debating. I'm just showing you how it looks to me with a concession that I don't know for sure. You say you do know for sure. And if it really is as easy to show a connection between ACORN and The Democratic Party as it is to show that the sky is up, please take brief moment to enlighten me.

Please.
 
250Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 04:19
ACORN is not directly tied to the Democrat party, but the voters they are registering fit the Democrat demographic. We all know this.
 
251Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 09:45
No, we don't. And you don't know either.
 
252Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 09:46
I think you're confusing ACORN with Sproul, who were caught actually tossing out registration forms of people who registered as the "wrong" party.
 
253Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 10:09
Rush Limbaugh and Orrin Hatch publicly lying about Carol Lam

Orrin Hatch on Meet the Press:


"Take Carol Lam, for instance. Carol Lam was raised on your program, Tim, by Schumer. Carol Lam, it’s amazing to me she wasn’t fired earlier because for three years members of the Congress had complained that there had been all kinds of border patrol capture of these people but hardly any prosecutions. She was a former law professor, no prosecutorial experience, and the former campaign manager in Southern California for Clinton, and they’re trying to say that this administration appoints people politically?"

Rush Limbaugh on his radio show;

" Carol Lam was a campaign manager! These people would normally be made ambassadors, but Clinton put her in as a US attorney. This is the kind of people that Clintons and Democrats appoint as federal judges. What I was talking about earlier, is their attempt here to insulate Democrats and liberals from election results. Now, Bush could have gotten rid of this woman when he took office. He chose not to. The new tone, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."


Lam has never been a law professor, was an Assistant US Attorney for 14+ years and was never a campaign manager for Bill Clinton. She was a Bush appontee in 2002.

Hatch's apology(of sorts)

"My comments about Carol Lam's record as a U.S. Attorney were accurate, but I misspoke when making the point of discussing politically connected U.S. Attorneys. I accidentally used her name, instead of her predecessor, Alan Bersin, who was appointed by President Bill Clinton."

Pathetic.
 
254Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 10:23
Even his excuse doesn't make any sense. He wasn't talking about Bersin in the conversation with Limbaugh on on MTP.
 
256Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 10:36
ACORN is not directly tied to the Democrat party, but the voters they are registering fit the Democrat demographic. We all know this.

I have no idea what you think you know. Clearly you don't either.
In post 208 you told us you couldn't decide which of your many links to post about "ACORN and Democrat voter fraud". What did we all know at that time?

In post 233 you told us, "And if a Democrat breaks the law, he should be indicted, A good example of this is ACORN."

Here's a jewel from post 245: "Of the 100s of 1000s voters registered, my guess is the over/under, of those who voted Republican, would be about 8."
That last one is my favorite. What happened to all my "reasoning power"?! lol Well, that and your 'is the sky up', 'is the grass green' nonsense, when I challenged your obviously dubious but nevertheless repeated assertion.

Don't be mad at me for exposing you here. Its obvious to everyone, even the conservatives. Even Baldwin. While he'll disingenuously tell you you're "doing fine", he knows he could never back up 80% of what you write. Perhaps I'll call him on it the next time he shows up in a thread ripe with your opinions and musings.


You know, a smarter debator might have realized that Walk and Perm Dude had been duscussing the DOJ's disingenuous allegations and accusations that the USA broadly failed to investigate voter fraud in this thread long before you stumbled onto the topic as your latest pet apology/assault more than two weeks later.

Aside from yesterday's comedic nonsense about ACORN and Democrats, nearly this whole point of argumnt is a big laugh. Much of what you've written in the past 3 days on the topic of voter fraud was seriously challenged if not outright fisked over the previous two weeks.
 
257Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 13:31
Meanwhile, the pursuit of civil rights cases has virtually ended during this Administration.

One case was initiated by this Administration in its Civil Rights Division. One. In more than six years.

This shouldn't surprise us, of course, as the Administration fills thousands of non-priority staff positions with political hacks, whose job it is to not work. Millions and millions of taxpayer dollars thrown away. They should at least have the balls to propose eliminating jobs that they don't intend to pursue.
 
258Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 13:57
That's funny, a friend of mine from law school is one of those "political hacks" and she deserves the title, she does nothing.
 
259Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 15:36
More on what the "Bushies" are doing..
 
260Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 21:00
Sometimes it amazes me you guys have the functional capacity to even type. ACORN is a predominately black organization singing up predominately poor blacks. If you guys don't think poor blacks are a Democrat demographic, then I suggest your keepers remove all sharp instruments from your rooms, because you are nuts.
 
261Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 21:29
Crushing.
 
262Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 22:02
Jag, if it is sooo clear to you, you wouldn't find it hard to back up your theories with actual facts.

But you don't. Because you can't.

Your head is up your ass. And it got there because you thought we'd be distracted from what this Administration has done to justice in the country by looking at you doing it.

If, six years ago, I'd told you all the things this Administration has done, you'd wonder why people would be so stupid as to vote for liberals. But they didn't. And you're covering for them. At least have the decency to get out of the room while we clean up all the crap the Administration has laid out.
 
263Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 22:07
Monica "Fifth" Goodling resigns
 
264Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 22:37
From the horse's mouth.

Their own left-wing rag

In 2006, ACORN helped more than 540,000 low income and minority citizens to apply to become voters. ACORN has helped more than 1.6 million people register to vote since 2003

The real deal with ACORN.

The Truth



 
265Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 22:58
Nonsense.

You're response to clear partisanship on the part of law-enforcement (i.e., the government), is a "look here--here's non-profit private group that is clearly partisan, because they are registering the poor!"

What a load of crap.

Sadly, you can't even see how pathetically you represent the Right.

You need to pray that, when American voters hand the reins of government to the Democrats, that they have the decency to do what you can't bring yourself to do. God forbid we ever have a "Golden Rule, Applied" situation, because your side is screwed.
 
266Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 23:01
You've been hanging around Sarge and Tree too long, PD. I can remember when you weren't so prone to 'losing it'.
 
267Perm Dude
      ID: 5634267
      Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 23:04
I haven't lost anything, Baldwin, except the hope that the Right would be better represented.

You've tied yourself so completely to this non-conservative Republican in office, that you and Jag can't even bring yourself to criticize heart-stopping ethical, legal, and moral lapses, because this might give the "other side" something.

It is the true measure of a man to see how he reacts when he's wrong. We've seen that with this President and his inner circle. And we're seeing it with his apologists on these boards as well.
 
268Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 00:28
If a president excersizing his right to run the executive branch stops your heart then stop following politics.
 
269Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 02:33
Here is proof that ACORN is a far-left outfit.


You are taking up for them!


God forbid we ever have a "Golden Rule, Applied" situation, because your side is screwed.

You have invented 2 scandals since you had supeona power, yet haven't even attempted to clean up the most obvious crooks in your own house.

Your head is up your ass. And it got there because you thought we'd be distracted from what this Administration has done to justice in the country by looking at you doing it.

Liberals don't care about Justice. Justice is punishment fitting the crime. All the Left care about is that their own bastardization of the law is carried out, even if it means every mass murderer, rapist, pedophile or terrorist is set free.
 
270Tree
      ID: 582392917
      Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 08:00
If a president excersizing his right to run the executive branch stops your heart then stop following politics.

that would explain why you often make no sense when talking about 1992-2000. you stopped following politics, because a president ran the executive branch.

however, your president - the man you claim to not support, despite throwing up the seig heil everytime he is mentioned, sees running the executive branch as a way to trample the Constitution, remove political opponents through highly suspect ways, break laws, have less ethics than even Clinton (and yes, despite being a huge Clinton fan, as a human, he was kind of a scumbag while in office), and just in general setting himself up to be about the worst president ever - is just going his job, according to you.

i realize this is where you make some asinine insult in my direction as a response, so feel free, but rest assured, the fact that several posters here have mentioned that your "work" here has gone downhill so significicantly, says quite a bit.

you're Jag's lapdog now. congrats.

speaking of Jag:
Liberals don't care about Justice. Justice is punishment fitting the crime. All the Left care about is that their own bastardization of the law is carried out, even if it means every mass murderer, rapist, pedophile or terrorist is set free.

right. because that's what we all run to the streets to do. Free Jeffrey Dahmer! Free Richard Ramirez! Free John Wayne Gacy!

sorry pal, i don't see anyone i elected or anyone i hang out with or anyone i know or anyone on earth who supports freeing folks like that.

they exist, only in your mind.

however, i am interested in seeing Justice meted out to folks like Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, and everyone else who have succceeded in wrecking this country in ways that Bin Laden could only have dreamed about.

(BTW, you may remember Bin Laden? he was public enemy number one, until Bush decided to go after someone who never attacked this country, instead of trying to capture someone who did.)
 
271sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 08:48
Liberals don't care about Justice. Justice is punishment fitting the crime. All the Left care about is that their own bastardization of the law is carried out, even if it means every mass murderer, rapist, pedophile or terrorist is set free.

Simply false, on all counts. And as for our predeliction toward preserving the Bill of Rights....that IS the law in this country dumbass.
 
272Perm Dude
      ID: 5435476
      Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 08:55
Justice is punishment fitting the crime

Not at all. Justice is freedom. Justice is not just about fair punishment of those who are guilty.
 
273Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 10:03
I have yet to see any evidence that ACORN is an issue with any of the fired prosecutors. All I see is a distraction from the real issues, which is why these prosecutors were fired.

Jag's comical posts, obfuscation aside, are filled with irony. While the right constantly accuses liberals of being driven by emotion, Jag entertains us with the most emotion-riddled sentence ever offered up on this forum:

All the Left care about is that their own bastardization of the law is carried out, even if it means every mass murderer, rapist, pedophile or terrorist is set free.

I've really come to look forward to these Jaggisms. Even more hilarious is that you fancy yourself a conservative instead of the drooling radical you really are.
 
274Perm Dude
      ID: 8344813
      Sun, Apr 08, 2007, 19:34
Spotlight on Regent University.

Are we truly better represented by the politicalization of Justice?
 
275Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Sun, Apr 08, 2007, 22:10
I'm sorry PV but I've got the copyright on 'drooling' references for a decent interval.
 
276Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 14:13
Leahy doubts Bush aides on lost e-mails

"They say they have not been preserved. I don't believe that!" Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy shouted from the Senate floor.

"You can't erase e-mails, not today. They've gone through too many servers," said Leahy, D-Vt. "Those e-mails are there, they just don't want to produce them. We'll subpoena them if necessary."

"I've got a teenage kid in my neighborhood that can go get 'em for them," he told reporters later.


*love* that last line...
 
277Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 14:18
Whoops!
Five years after the Bush administration began a crackdown on voter fraud, the Justice Department has turned up virtually no evidence of any organized effort to skew federal elections, according to court records and interviews.

Although Republican activists have repeatedly said fraud is so widespread that it has corrupted the political process and, possibly, cost the party election victories, about 120 people have been charged and 86 convicted as of last year.

Most of those charged have been Democrats, voting records show. Many of those charged by the Justice Department appear to have mistakenly filled out registration forms or misunderstood eligibility rules, a review of court records and interviews with prosecutors and defense lawyers show.



But the federal cases provide little evidence of widespread, organized fraud, prosecutors and election law experts said.

“There was nothing that we uncovered that suggested some sort of concerted effort to tilt the election,” Richard G. Frohling, an assistant United States attorney in Milwaukee, said.

Richard L. Hasen, an expert in election law at the Loyola Law School, agreed, saying: “If they found a single case of a conspiracy to affect the outcome of a Congressional election or a statewide election, that would be significant. But what we see is isolated, small-scale activities that often have not shown any kind of criminal intent.”

 
278Perm Dude
      ID: 48329127
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 14:22
:)

As we know, many in the upper levels of the Administration use a parallel email system, though laptops supplied by the RNC, in order to not leave traces of their correspondence (they learned from the Clinton years that it was a bad idea to save your work, in other words).

With the RNC deleting emails after 30 days, plus their own (internal) system administrator no doubt using some starting wiping tools for the drives and backups, things might very well be "lost." Intentionally so.

Some background
 
279sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 14:48
“There was nothing that we uncovered that suggested some sort of concerted effort to tilt the election,” Richard G. Frohling, an assistant United States attorney in Milwaukee, said.

but, but, but...that cant be! JAG told us so.
 
280Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 14:52
Well it turned out Jag was right about some things - there is an invented scandal and resulting witch hunt after all, only the DOJ was the perpetrator, not the victim.
 
281Perm Dude
      ID: 48329127
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 15:09
In fairness, I should also point out myself that the use of organizations to register voters, and pay the workers per registration, has caused some small numbers of problems because workers (sometimes homelss or underemployed people) will make up voter registrations to boost their pay.

However, this is not voter fraud. Since those fake registrations are for people that don't actually exist, there are no votes being cast as a result of those fake registrations.

A problem? Sure--and voter registration needs to be streamlined and more transparent of a process in quite a few places. But it isn't voter fraud. It is, however, a smokescreen for attempts to make registration (and therefore voting) more difficult in areas where there are higher numbers of Democrats.
 
282Perm Dude
      ID: 48329127
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 22:22
We just keep losing stuff....not our fault, see...
 
283Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 22:55
You might want to check Sandy Berger's pants for those lost documents.



 
284Perm Dude
      ID: 48329127
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 23:02
Berger was very old school. Stealing old secrets.

This Administration uses parallel laptops, alternative email addresses, and other means to circumvent the Hatch Act. And has a habit of losing evidence which would be embarrasing to them (at best) or demonstrate illegal acts (at worst).

George W. Bush is what Baldwin dreams Bill Clinton was.
 
285Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 23:04
You might want to check Sandy Berger's pants for those lost documents.

Maybe you should ask Noel Hillman, the judge who let him walk and then was rewarded with a federal judgeship by Bush.

 
286walk
      ID: 15350139
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 14:58
Regarding Regent University and the Bush Admin.

For God’s Sake
Save By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: April 13, 2007


In 1981, Gary North, a leader of the Christian Reconstructionist movement — the openly theocratic wing of the Christian right — suggested that the movement could achieve power by stealth. “Christians must begin to organize politically within the present party structure,” he wrote, “and they must begin to infiltrate the existing institutional order.”

Today, Regent University, founded by the televangelist Pat Robertson to provide “Christian leadership to change the world,” boasts that it has 150 graduates working in the Bush administration.

Unfortunately for the image of the school, where Mr. Robertson is chancellor and president, the most famous of those graduates is Monica Goodling, a product of the university’s law school. She’s the former top aide to Alberto Gonzales who appears central to the scandal of the fired U.S. attorneys and has declared that she will take the Fifth rather than testify to Congress on the matter.

The infiltration of the federal government by large numbers of people seeking to impose a religious agenda — which is very different from simply being people of faith — is one of the most important stories of the last six years. It’s also a story that tends to go underreported, perhaps because journalists are afraid of sounding like conspiracy theorists.

But this conspiracy is no theory. The official platform of the Texas Republican Party pledges to “dispel the myth of the separation of church and state.” And the Texas Republicans now running the country are doing their best to fulfill that pledge.

Kay Cole James, who had extensive connections to the religious right and was the dean of Regent’s government school, was the federal government’s chief personnel officer from 2001 to 2005. (Curious fact: she then took a job with Mitchell Wade, the businessman who bribed Representative Randy “Duke” Cunningham.) And it’s clear that unqualified people were hired throughout the administration because of their religious connections.

For example, The Boston Globe reports on one Regent law school graduate who was interviewed by the Justice Department’s civil rights division. Asked what Supreme Court decision of the past 20 years he most disagreed with, he named the decision to strike down a Texas anti-sodomy law. When he was hired, it was his only job offer.

Or consider George Deutsch, the presidential appointee at NASA who told a Web site designer to add the word “theory” after every mention of the Big Bang, to leave open the possibility of “intelligent design by a creator.” He turned out not to have, as he claimed, a degree from Texas A&M.

One measure of just how many Bushies were appointed to promote a religious agenda is how often a Christian right connection surfaces when we learn about a Bush administration scandal.

There’s Ms. Goodling, of course. But did you know that Rachel Paulose, the U.S. attorney in Minnesota — three of whose deputies recently stepped down, reportedly in protest over her management style — is, according to a local news report, in the habit of quoting Bible verses in the office?

Or there’s the case of Claude Allen, the presidential aide and former deputy secretary of health and human services, who stepped down after being investigated for petty theft. Most press reports, though they mentioned Mr. Allen’s faith, failed to convey the fact that he built his career as a man of the hard-line Christian right.

And there’s another thing most reporting fails to convey: the sheer extremism of these people.

You see, Regent isn’t a religious university the way Loyola or Yeshiva are religious universities. It’s run by someone whose first reaction to 9/11 was to brand it God’s punishment for America’s sins.

Two days after the terrorist attacks, Mr. Robertson held a conversation with Jerry Falwell on Mr. Robertson’s TV show “The 700 Club.” Mr. Falwell laid blame for the attack at the feet of “the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians,” not to mention the A.C.L.U. and People for the American Way. “Well, I totally concur,” said Mr. Robertson.

The Bush administration’s implosion clearly represents a setback for the Christian right’s strategy of infiltration. But it would be wildly premature to declare the danger over. This is a movement that has shown great resilience over the years. It will surely find new champions.

Next week Rudy Giuliani will be speaking at Regent’s Executive Leadership Series.
 
287walk
      ID: 15350139
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 15:12
Sampson Picked Staff Replacements a Year Ago
 
288walk
      ID: 15350139
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 15:15
This story, which is based on an email from Sampson, would mean he potentially committed perjury when he said, under oath, that he did not have replacements in mind when identifying the prosecutors asked to resign.

- walk
 
289Perm Dude
      ID: 52327148
      Sat, Apr 14, 2007, 21:45
A peek under the hood at the DOJ..

We're seeing, more and more, no difference between DOJ policy and White House policy.
 
290Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, Apr 14, 2007, 22:07
I still don't know whose morale is low. They keep talking about career, if it is the left wing, weak on crime, revolving prison door attornies, then all I can say is "See ya".
 
291Perm Dude
      ID: 52327148
      Sat, Apr 14, 2007, 22:54
And if it isn't?

You can't be a career DOJ person if you are a winger either way.
 
292Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sat, Apr 14, 2007, 23:22
That's what I want to know, if it is normal hard working attornies, then this is shame, if it is Left wing civil activists, woot.
 
293Perm Dude
      ID: 52327148
      Sun, Apr 15, 2007, 01:18
Everything I've read is that the career guys (who either appear genuinely independent, like Metcalfe linked to in #289), or those who are fairly non-political, are all telling the same story.

Even from the Administration itself we are essentially getting a different explanation for the clear politicalization of the DOJ. Except in the case of the WH they constantly harp on the fact that the DOJ serve "at the pleasure of the president." True, but it misses the point by a lot. Particularly when the political philosophy of many of these inexperienced, underqualified appointees put them at odds with the mission of their new resume-building positions.
 
294Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Sun, Apr 15, 2007, 07:42
This link seems to be different than others I have seen, majority of the sites I have read had chiefly Civil Rights attorneys complaining about morale.
 
295Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, Apr 19, 2007, 22:44
 
296Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Thu, Apr 19, 2007, 23:09
Gonzales is certainly gone.

For me, the question is whether this is a question of an attempt to stop prosecutions of GOPs/force prosecution of Dems. The evidence is weak on that so far IMO; I hope the question doesn't get lost amidst the trivialities.

BTW did you notice the foolishness of Gonzales trying to make a smart-ass remark to Arlen Specter? Specter, whatever you think of him, is a skilled cross-examiner. Anita Hill found that out; so did Gonzales today.

In trying to figure out what's gone on, we must remember that Harriet Miers was heavily involved in this on the White House side. That leans heavily towards a stupidity/incompetence explanation. She is also the type of person who could do something that is unethical without knowing it, because concepts like "independence from politics" and "rule of law" are beyond what her intelligence can comprehend.

I concur with an explanation given by NR Editor Rich Lowry: the process was so screwed up and driven by "consensus" that there is no one who can say exactly why X was fired and Y was spared. Literally.

I also recommend this David Frum musing:
Those Missing RNC Emails ...

... Boy, it sure would be easier to defend this White House's innocence if they would quit acting so guilty.

I completely understand the origin of the system of RNC email accounts for selected White House staffers. President Bush entered office wanting to avoid the ethical lapses that had clouded the Clinton years. In particular, his White House was organized to ensure the strict separation of governing and electioneering expenses. I wrote a number of fundraising speeches in 2001-2002, and for those I had a separate printer (ink and paper paid for by the Republican National Committee, not the taxpayer).

The Democratic theory that these RNC email accounts constitute a sinister scheme to escape public oversight does not bear much scrutiny. Congress can subpoena private emails too after all. And "losing" emails only invites suspicions of the worst.

On the other hand, it is true that a certain personality type sooner or later shows up in every administration: the clever-clever-stupid political manipulator so infatuated with his or her own petty schemes that they never stop to consider the full and deep meaning of the ancient rule, "honesty is the best policy."

When that maxim was coined, the word "policy" had the same negative connotations that the word "scheme" does today. The maxim recommends honesty not as an ethical imperative, but as the highest form of cunning - because schemes are always found out, and often found out much sooner than expected.

At this point in the attorney affair, it is difficult to avoid concluding:

1) regardless of the legalities, the White House and DoJ were engaged in activities that they believed would appear discreditable if exposed to full public view;

2) that they have told untruths in their effort to conceal the full truth of the matter;

and 3) that the Gonzales Justice Department was overstocked with inadequate people from the Attorney General himself on down.

Toral

 
297Perm Dude
      ID: 2348197
      Thu, Apr 19, 2007, 23:14
...The Democratic theory that these RNC email accounts constitute a sinister scheme...

While much of that article looks pretty good, this point is a clear swing-and-a-miss. Democrats contend that having duplicate systems violates the Hatch Act.

I agree with you on Spector. He ripped into Gonzales after that very stupid remark.

TPM has Spector, and others, here.
 
298Perm Dude
      ID: 2348197
      Thu, Apr 19, 2007, 23:41
Glenn Greewald with why Bush won't fire Gonzales.

I think Greenwald is spot-on here. Essentially, Bush won't fire the AG, because that would make someone else "The Decider."

I also think Greenwald hits upon an important point regarding Gonzales' relationship with Bush. He's obviously quite loyal, willing to take as many political bullets for him as necessary, and so on. But it also seems clear in this that the AG still thinks of Bush as his client.

But Bush isn't. While he "serves at the pleasure of the President" might be true here, it isn't the same as being Bush's personal lawyer.
 
299walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Apr 20, 2007, 16:11
I have Nothing to Hide...
 
300biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Fri, Apr 20, 2007, 16:15
Sweet.
 
301Perm Dude
      ID: 313532323
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 00:57
Another Republican getting mixed up in the scandal.

The problem here is also that the DoJ failed to turn over the records of Paul Charlton's reporting to them the improper contact (you might recall Alberto Gonzales chiding David Iglesias for not reporting to the DoJ the calls he got from Rep Wilson and Sen. Domenici).
 
302Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 12:16


 
303Perm Dude
      ID: 56343267
      Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 22:54
I missed this awesome chart that Sheldon Whitehouse used during the AG's testimony:

The bottom of the chart is the Clinton protocol regulating contact between the White House and the Department of Justice. 4 people at the White House were authorized to contact 3 people at the DoJ. A nice, solid wall of separation, to allow the DoJ to operate without political interference.

The top of the chart is the current protocol. 417 people in the White House with 30 (or so) people at the DoJ:

 
304sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 09:00
if that doesnt say it all.....
 
305Perm Dude
      ID: 1443227
      Wed, May 02, 2007, 10:21
When does bad performances not matter?...

When you don't like the law--change it! What a charmed life these DoJ appointees lead.
 
306Perm Dude
      ID: 5243978
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 11:52
As we poke and prod the DoJ, it is necessary, I think, to probe their hiring practices since they seem to hold a strong political element, even for career attorneys.

The purges are working: Only 2 african-american attorneys in the Civil Rights Division. Apparently it is difficult to find black lawyers who believe the job of the CRD is to challenge urban voters and sue organizations who appear to have had a fraud perpetrated upon them by having day workers turn in fake voter registration forms.
 
307walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 09:01
Missouri Prosecutor says he was Forced to Resign
 
308walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 09:09
Gonzalez Confident he will Stay

It'll be interesting to see what happens in round 2 of the congressional hearings, but at the end of the day, if Bush wants him to stay, and Gonzo wants to stay, then he stays, even if he's a lame duck feeb (as opposed to just a regular feeb).

- walk
 
309sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 10:14
re 307..

So, the "dismissed" USA refused to sign off on a case and was at leats partially urged out for that refusal, only to see a Judge dismiss the case anyway. IOW, The USA made the right legal call, but because he didnt "take one for the team", got ppushed aside and replaced by an apparently less competent ATTY who DID sign off on the case, only to lose it anyway.

Is that essentially correct?

This admin, is SO incredibly corrupt...and yet there are those who will defend it unto their death beds.
 
310walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 10:46
sarge33rd, #309, if the article is accurate, and the resigning US attorney accurate, then that's my take on the situation, too. I was equally "wow'd!" on that one. Unbelievable.

- walk
 
311walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 11:56
Live liberal-slanted blogging of today's AG hearings below:

link
 
312Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Sat, May 12, 2007, 00:48
 
313Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 13:16
The Scapegoat Cometh

WASHINGTON - Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Tuesday he relied on his resigning deputy more than any other aide to decide which U.S. attorneys should be fired last year.

His comments came a less than a day after Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty announced he would resign at the end of the summer — a decision that people familiar with the plans said was hastened by the controversy over the purge of eight prosecutors.
 
314walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 17:01
Another Interesting Story about AG Gonzalez
 
315walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, May 15, 2007, 17:04
If this story is true, man this is just like wild stuff. Like the article mentions, stuff you'd see in a paperback political thriller.

- walk
 
316sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 08:15
AG Gonzales

click on the video link "New Trouble for Alberto Gonzales"

It would appear to confirm what walk posted above.
 
317walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 12:19
Bush was allegedly involved, too.

- walk

President Intervened in Dispute Over Eavesdropping
 
318Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 12:45
I have a little more respect for John Ashcroft after reading these accounts, but would have really been impressed with his integrity if he and Mueller had actually gone through with their planned resignations. I believe that not only would the NSA wiretapping program have been exposed for the fraud that it is, but we would have also been spared the Alberto Gonzalez reign as Attorney General, for his reputation would have been shot.
 
319walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 13:21
Agreed, SZ. Perhaps they made Ashcroft an offer he could not refuse? aaar.

Mr. Comey's Tale (Wash Post)
 
320walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 16, 2007, 16:56
Here is the text of the Senators' letter to Mr. Gonzalez:

May 16, 2007

The Honorable Alberto Gonzales
Attorney General
United States Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20530

Dear Mr. Attorney General:

In very dramatic testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee yesterday, former Deputy Attorney General James Comey testified that in March 2004, when you served as White House Counsel, you were involved in "an effort to take advantage of a very sick man," referring to then-Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Specifically, Mr. Comey testified that you and former White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card went to Mr. Ashcroft's bedside at George Washington Hospital, where he was in intensive care, in an effort to get him to agree to certify the legality of a classified program that he and Mr. Comey, who was serving as acting Attorney General at the time, had concluded should not be so certified. Mr. Comey stated that when the Administration decided to go forward with reauthorizing this classified program without that certification, he and several other Justice Department officials, including possibly Attorney General Ashcroft himself, were ready to tender their resignations.

You testified last year before both the Senate Judiciary Committee and the House Judiciary Committee about this incident. On February 6, 2006, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, you were asked whether Mr. Comey and others at the Justice Department had raised concerns about the NSA wiretapping program. You stated in response that the disagreement that occurred was not related to the wiretapping program confirmed by the President in December 2005, which was the topic of the hearing. The following is a transcript excerpt from that hearing:

Senator Schumer. Let me ask you about some specific reports. It has been reported by multiple news outlets that the former number two man in the Justice Department, the premier terrorism prosecutor, Jim Comey, expressed grave reservations about the NSA program and at least once refused to give it his blessing. Is that true?

Attorney General Gonzales. Senator, here is a response that I feel that I can give with respect to recent speculation or stories about disagreements. There has not been any serious disagreement, including - and I think this is accurate - there has not been any serious disagreement about the program that the President has confirmed. There have been disagreements about other matters regarding operations, which I cannot get into. I will also say -

Senator Schumer. But there was some - I am sorry to cut you off, but there was some dissent within the administration, and Jim Comey did express at some point - that is all I asked you - some reservations.

Attorney General Gonzales. The point I want to make is that, to my knowledge, none of the reservations dealt with the program that we are talking about today. They dealt with operational capabilities that we are not talking about today.

Senator Schumer. I want to ask you again about them, just we have limited time.

Attorney General Gonzales. Yes, sir.

Senator Schumer. It has also been reported that the head of the Office of Legal Counsel, Jack Goldsmith, respected lawyer and professor at Harvard Law School, expressed reservations about the program. Is that true?

Attorney General Gonzales. Senator, rather than going individual by individual—

Senator Schumer. No, I think we are - this is—

Attorney General Gonzales. By individual, let me just say that I think the differing views that have been the subject of some of these stories does not - did not deal with the program that I am here testifying about today.

Senator Schumer. But you are telling us that none of these people expressed any reservations about the ultimate program. Is that right?

Attorney General Gonzales. Senator, I want to be very careful here. Because of course I am here only testifying about what the President has confirmed. And with respect to what the President has confirmed, I believe - I do not believe that these DOJ officials that you are identifying had concerns about this program.

In addition, on April 6, 2006, in answer to a question from then House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner about the hospital visit, which had been reported in the press, you responded: "Mr. Chairman, what I can say - and I'm sure this will not be acceptable, but let me say it anyway - is that I have testified before that the disagreement that existed does not relate to the program the President confirmed in December to the American people."

We ask for your prompt response to the following question: In light of Mr. Comey's testimony yesterday, do you stand by your 2006 Senate and House testimony, or do you wish to revise it?

Sincerely,


RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD
United States Senator
CHARLES E. SCHUMER
United States Senator
EDWARD M. KENNEDY
United States Senator
RICHARD J. DURBIN
United States Senator
 
321sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, May 17, 2007, 11:50
I'd be interested to know how many instruments it will take for the music required for Gonzos trying to dance around this one.
 
322walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, May 17, 2007, 16:53
I think he's just gonna keep avoiding answering questions directly, maintain his composure, let others take the fall, stand by while his daddy says how much more confidence he has in him, and just sorta pretend there's nothing here to see.

- walk
 
323Perm Dude
      ID: 344342020
      Mon, May 21, 2007, 16:16
 
324walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 11:21
Goodling testifying under limited immunity right now. On MSNBC.

I cannot believe that questioners are allowed to give speeches about unrelated issues (e.g. Cannon going on a rant about the Dems not reprimanding Murtha for his breach of ethics). That is a very wrong aspect of our system.

Goodling just admitted that she delayed the hiring of a USAttorney due to the Attorney's liberal background.

- walk
 
325walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 11:27
Goodling is contradicting McNulty's testimony. She says she took the 5th cos of his allegations about her behavior.

- walk
 
326Perm Dude
      ID: 474282310
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 11:30
Blaming him is just nonsense. She knew that her actions, on their own, were wrong. Can't wait to see her get nailed.
 
327walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 11:46
So far, not really getting nailed. She admitted that she "did wrong, but did not intend to." She admitted that things could have been handled differently. She indicates that she made recommendations, but was not a big player in these decisions.

- walk
 
328walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 12:01
Repubs are defending her indicating that she was doing her job, hiring and evaluating US Attorneys that were carrying out the AG's and President's priorities. They say the President has the right to do make changes, and that these folks had expired terms. She has explicity answered, when asked, that she did not feel any decisions were made to replace any attorneys because they were interfering with any investigations of dems.

She did admit asking political appointees who they voted for.
 
329Perm Dude
      ID: 474282310
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 12:08
That's the problem with making decisions by committee. No one ever is to blame for the committee's decisions.

I always thought the Republican Party was supposed to be the Daddy Party, all about responsibility, et al.
 
330walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 12:16
Yeah, happens everywhere...

Her testimony so far has basically just blamed Sampson and McNulty, but she has admitted she asked interviewees their political affiliation, which apparently is against the law. She has immunity though, so I don't think she can get in trouble for that. To me, the buck stops with Gonzo who needs to be accountable for this troops' behavior, but the repubs are saying that the president's priorities are a valid means to make personnel decisions. No one has hit the pot of gold about whether anyone was fired for investigating a repub or failing to prosecute a dem or failing to prosecute an invalid voter fraud case.

- walk
 
331walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 12:45
Continuous repub refutation of the firing of Carol Lam in California as due to her inability to curtail illegal immigration...using complaints made by officials such as Dem Feinstein as proof, complaints made a long time before her firing.

- walk
 
332walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 13:02
Cohen from Indiana slamming the Regents Univ connection. Probably not relevant, but funny. Goodling said she passed the bar the first time.

- walk
 
333walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 15:47
Interrogation Methods Criticized as Amateurish
 
334sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jun 07, 2007, 12:53
and Cheney needs to go with him

Cheney blocked Justice official's promotion
Attorney opposed Bush's warrantless wiretapping program
 
335Perm Dude
      ID: 5853289
      Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 10:26
White House invokes Executive Priviledge and refuses to release files in response to Congressional subpoena.

I believe (willing to be corrected here) that Executive Priviledge can only be invoked with an actual Executive involved. That is, correspondence, meeting minutes, emails, etc by others in the Executive Branch which do not involved the President are, by and large, exempt from a claim of Executive Priviledge.

Either Fielding doesn't know the law (which I doubt), he's trying to stretch it to cover the President having to answer to Congress even on things he wasn't involved in (much more likely), or Bush was personally involved in the firings (we'll probably never know).
 
336Perm Dude
      ID: 5853289
      Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 10:33
Another damning piece of testimony from a former AG

I know this is tiresome, but this is a guy fired for, apparently, asking the assistant AG to spend more than 5 to 10 minutes on a death penalty case. Money quote:

Just as compelling though, is this additional fact: the government knows where the body lies. The victim is buried in a landfill in Mobile, Arizona. For the price of between $500,000 to $1,000,000, the government can exhume the body. While I served as the U.S. Attorney, we asked DOJ to pay for the exhumation. DOJ refused.

The body of the victim, were it recovered, might provide the forensic evidence that would ensure sufficient evidence to allow the government to seek the death penalty in good conscience. The body might, on the other hand, provide evidence that exculpates the defendant in some manner. Either way, it is wrong for the government to both seek the death penalty and at the same time refuse to provide funds to obtain evidence that could prove a vital link in supporting or negating its position.



MBJ As a prosecutor yourself, you've been silent on this issue. Any thoughts?
 
337walk
      ID: 75112114
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 11:46
Bush Claims Broad View of Exec Privilege
 
338sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 12:05
Gonzo isnt the only one who needs to go...shrub and cheney need to go too.
 
339Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 12:27
got rid of one dictator when we invaded iraq, and gained another, more dangerous one.
 
340walk
      ID: 75112114
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 12:29
Well, yeah, but I felt that this was the right thread for this story. Amazing how exec privilege tactic under the theory of unitary leadership is being used. It's too bad they would not get the 60 votes in the Senate to convict cos these two surely should be booted out. Impeachment is not the tool I'd like to use, just like "poor performance." Fired basically cos they suck. Just like in any business. On top of that is the arrogance and delusion -- these guys do think they are ultimately going to be judged well. Well, that thinking could apply to any poorly performing person who has ever been fired. If there ever was an obvious instance of poor leadership, these two surely are it.

- walk
 
341sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 12:34
Dereliction of Duty is an appropriate allegation here. Shrub, Cheney et al...swore oaths to protect and defend the Constitution. Yet at every turn, they are trying their damndest to subvert that very document. "Enemies of the State", is not IMO too great a strecth.
 
342Perm Dude
      ID: 25631299
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 11:19
NY Times calls on Congress to impeach Gozales

It's the "Do I have to do everything around here?" argument, I think.

It seems clear Gonzeles is a lying liar, and personifies the politicalization of the Justice Department (probably the one agency, outside of the VA, which should have no politics in their decisions.
 
343walk
      ID: 2530286
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 11:27
Right, and it's amazing how long the loyal protection towards gonzales by bush continues. It's just a macho thing by bush at this point, and he never relents. At the end of the day, it's a total reflection of bush's appts, so if he dumps gonzales, he's admitting a direct hiring mistake -- and he really never does that.
 
344walk
      ID: 2530286
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 11:36
Conservatives not Defending Gonzales, even on Fox TV
 
345Perm Dude
      ID: 25631299
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 11:38
I think Bush knows that not only does he have a guy taking bullets for him, but the Senate would not confirm another guy like Gonzales as AG. Bush is going to ride him into the ground, I suspect.
 
346walk
      ID: 2530286
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 13:14
Agreed, PD. I think bush values the loyalty, allegiance and cover AG provides, and the reluctance to admit judgmental error (bush has also gone to far in his support of AG to reverse now...), more than anything.
 
347Perm Dude
      ID: 19713279
      Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 10:14
Word is that AG Gonzales' press conference in about an hour will be to announce his resignation. Stay tuned...
 
348Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 12:14
Yup, the horrible wretch has finally slinked away.
Alberto Gonzales, the nation's first Hispanic attorney general, [who performed the near impossible feat of being a WORSE AG than his predecessor John Ashcroft] announced his resignation Monday, forced from the helm of the Justice Department after a wrenching standoff with congressional critics over his honesty and competence.
 
349Perm Dude
      ID: 19713279
      Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 12:24
Will the last rat please turn out the lights?

 
350Seattle Zen
      ID: 86541617
      Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 23:17
I'm now very interested in which direction the Congressional investigations take. Now that he has gone, I hope that they ease up a bit on his covering his ass regarding the decision to fire the eight US Attorneys and focus on the far more disturbing idea that his DOJ focused their investigations of officials nearly exclusively upon Democrats, as Toral mentioned above.

Lying to Congress to cover your ass is one thing, using the DOJ as a partisan Inquisition is criminal.
 
351Razor
      ID: 136523110
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 09:55
Perhaps he and others deserve to get a stronger punishment than merely being forced out of office, but I doubt they'll get it because, regrettably, any further prodding at Gonzalez will be seen as bitter partisanship by the public. I hope they continue on, especially after Bush claimed, as is always the case when a corrupt or incompetent Republican is exposed, that Gonzalez was railroaded.
 
352Perm Dude
      ID: 26731289
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 10:51
Frankly, I think the public wants the kind of things that Congress is nibbling around on but refusing to bite: Hard investigations, line-in-the-sand withdrawal dates from Iraq, and limiting Presidential powers gained after 9/11.

The President has very low approval ratings because he's been godawful. Congress has very low approval ratings because they continue to pull their punches.
 
353Razor
      ID: 136523110
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 11:00
Though oversight is one of their responsibilities, I think most people think Congress is doing a good job when they are passing legislation, not when they are conducting investigations.
 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 26731289
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 11:08
Perhaps in a general sense. But, as Glenn Greenwald points out, Americans overwhelmingly want investigations. Americans also overwhelmingly oppose the surge and want the troops home.

Congressional approval is so low because Congress isn't doing what Americans really want. Passing legislation like the most recent expansion of the President's spy powers isn't going to help.

pd
 
355Perm Dude
      ID: 26731289
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 13:09
Another Greenwald piece that goes more directly to the point you're raising, Razor
 
356Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 13:15
PD - i agree with you 100 percent in post 352. a new, Democratic Congress was elected to bring about change. instead, they've just paddled in circles.
 
357Perm Dude
      ID: 26731289
      Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 13:20
Yeah, we should call them the "One-legged Duck Congress."

:)
 
358Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 14:42
The cartoon in post 312 was right, this Administration tried to make the DOJ a conservative cabal for "just us".

Report Sees Illegal Hiring Practices at Justice Dept.
Justice Department officials over the last six years illegally used “political or ideological” factors to hire new lawyers into an elite recruitment program, tapping law school graduates with conservative credentials over those with liberal-sounding resumes, a new report found Tuesday. “Many qualified candidates” were rejected for the department’s honors program because of what was perceived as a liberal bias, the report found. Those practices, the report concluded, “constituted misconduct and also violated the department’s policies and civil service law that prohibit discrimination in hiring based on political or ideological affiliations.”

Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic. The past seven years of waste, lies, and ineptitude can't end soon enough.
 
359Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 15:21
Point Of Order:

If Zen posts regularly but references a cartoon, does it count as a "normal" post or another cartoon?
 
360Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 10:07
RE 358:

This might be the most unmitigatedly egregious of all this administration's sins. I don't think people realize how important it is to keep funcitonary level prosecutors as free as possible of ideological bridles. What a disaster.
 
361Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 10:51
I'd get upset at that if I didn't highly suspect that that was merely a small step to returning balance to a system that had been abused in the other direction.

I am unaware of any hardball tactic that liberals haven't played nastier than Republicans.
 
362Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 10:56
The blocking of applicants with liberal credentials appeared to be a particular problem in the Justice Department’s civil rights division, which has seen an exodus of career employees in recent years as the department has pursued a more conservative agenda in deciding what types of cases to bring.

MBJ, you really don't think that dept hadn't already been shifted so far to the left as to positively scream for redress?
 
363Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 10:58
You've certainly got your own reality, Boldwin, and don't need evidence to support any of it.
 
364Perm Dude
      ID: 42540259
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 11:00
The "They are just as bad!" defense rears again.

Even if it is untrue.
 
365Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 11:12
I wish I could remember her name but there is just an infamous crazy woman in the civil rights enforcement aparatus and she is surely typical of the people packed into career positions by decades of 'great society' liberal government before Reagan turned the tide.
 
366Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 11:13
And that is PD and Razor's real objection. It's only good when the packing is with liberals.
 
367Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 11:30
And that is PD and Razor's real objection. It's only good when the packing is with liberals.

and what of MBJ, who is not a said "liberal"? what's his real objection?
 
368Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 11:40
My experience with career DOJ lawyers is that they generally are not party hacks and have not been hired on that basis. That's the way it should be
 
369Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 11:47
And that is PD and Razor's real objection. It's only good when the packing is with liberals.

I'd actually prefer to see the best candidates hired, regardless of political leanings. The fact that any employee anywhere is eliminated from consideration because of perceived political affiliation is deplorable, but it is especially deplorable that it has been happening systemically at the DoJ.

As long as we have people like you claiming (correctly or falsely, doesn't matter) that impropriety is a necessity based on past events, then we'll never get anywhere. This would be a good time for you to remember that you're really not supposed to be involved in politics at all.
 
370Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 12:29
Baldwin is simply asking for the DOJ to redress what, in his mind, is years and years of unfair prejudice against conservatives. He wants to rectify this injustice by giving conservatives a chance to compete as they have been repressed by years of mainstream liberals picking their own. In short, he wants conservative affirmative action with quotas. Far fewer Yale and Harvard grads, let's get George Mason and Patric Henry's finest on board.

Just drop your insistence upon high test scores and grades, these flawed standards do not take into account the most important criteria, the ideological superiority of Conservatism.
 
371biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 12:54
What do you expect from a dude still thinking a band Iraqis are stealthily sneaking across Jordan to attack Israel, because WND said so; a firm grasp on reality?

I don't blame his processor so much as the bad data he insists on feeding it.
 
372Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 13:31
and what of MBJ, who is not a said "liberal"? what's his real objection?

MBJ is just being high minded. Gratz to him but he's bringing a judges gavel to a switchblade fight.
 
373Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 13:39
MBJ is just being high minded. Gratz to him but he's bringing a judges gavel to a switchblade fight.

it was mostly a rhetorical question, as i knew you'd come back with a nonsensical answer.

it never ceases to amaze me how much in favor of gumming up this nation, and throwing its core beliefs and Constitution out the window, in the name of somehow "getting even."
 
374J-Bar
      ID: 205332512
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 14:25
I think Elston was just probably not the guy that McNulty and Gonzales thought they knew.
 
375Perm Dude
      ID: 42540259
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 14:36
Yeah--they thought he wouldn't be so ham-fisted about it.
 
376J-Bar
      ID: 205332512
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 18:27
Just hired him to do a job and he let his own political bias come in to play and should be fired. oh wait he no longer works there. case closed unless of course there is something out there that shows that this was more than 2 rogue people acting on their own accord to select based on their own criteria.
 
377Perm Dude
      ID: 42540259
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 18:39
You haven't read any of the links above, have you?

There's plenty of evidence of more than two "rogues" including the AG himself.
 
378Perm Dude
      ID: 42540259
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 18:40
You kinda missed to point as well, that these people were hired for their political bias. It is the reason many got the job. And why many replaced career ADA who weren't partisan enough.
 
379J-Bar
      ID: 205332512
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 19:15
unsure what a career ada is, but the point that an appointee of a republican AG would be republican is somehow unbelievable is plain silly. then if that person uses a selection criteria that is possibly unlawful with no proof of a broader policy then that person should be disciplined for what they did if the prosecutor can prove it.
 
380biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 19:24
Dude. They were trolling the bottom. Pat Robertson law school grads. They weren't qualified to ambulance chase much less get appointments at Justice.

Also, the dismissals were in the middle of the term. That is virtually unheard-of in the history of the US. US attorney's are generally replace at the beginning of the term of a new president.
 
381J-Bar
      ID: 205332512
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 20:26
if dismissal w/o cause is ok at the beginning of a term what would make it not ok at any other time. from the articles talking about the reports that i have read it was generally a higher percentage that leaned right and that that percentage was the roughly the same in reference to the most qualified group also.
 
382Perm Dude
      ID: 42540259
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 21:04
A President requesting the resignations of all ADAs at the beginning of a term is common (not all resignations are accepted, BTW), as those ADAs were not appointed by that President. But dismissing stellar ADAs (which Bush appointed) for not filing bogus charges (for instance) is wrong.

timeline.

Surely you see the difference, at the very least, between asking for the resignations of appointees you didn't appoint and asking for the resignations of those you did appoint who have solid positive reviews?
 
383Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 21:58
Hmmm...that gives me an idea. David Souter has got to go. Conservatives should be allowed to correct their mistakes.
 
384Perm Dude
      ID: 42540259
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 22:10
Heh.

Scalia can use a do-over or two himself.
 
385Razor
      ID: 475342117
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 23:40
This is sickening to read. The idea that Harriet Miers, the White House counsel, suggested to DoJ officials firing all 93 U.S. Attorneys is just unbelievable. I just keep going down the timeline, and it just gets worse and worse and worse. It's embarrassing for our country that we are this petty and corrupt at the highest levels of government.
 
386Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 04:50
Total BS Razor. You didn't give a crap when Clinton did the exact same thing when he took office or when liberals got packed into the permanant government for twenty plus years '60's-80's. Conservatives have a long run controlling congress and they barely scratch the surface redressing that imbalance and you have a cow.

If Dems decide as it seems they have, to simply not appoint judges during Republican administrations so they can resume packing the judiciary when Dems retake the WH, you'll be happy as a pig in mud.

Your outrage is as unprincipled and hypocritical as it could possibly be.
 
387walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 07:44
I disagree, Boldwin. You know that the US Attorney plan was unusual cos it was mid-stream, not at the outset of the new admin coming in, and also tied to ongoing investigations of corrput repulicans and made-up investigations of corrupt Dems, and also gov't elections. This US Attorney change-over was far more nasty, partisan, and corrupt. Your outrage of Razor's outrage is outrageous.
 
388Perm Dude
      ID: 4550267
      Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 08:50
You didn't give a crap when Clinton did the exact same thing when he took office

Will we have to talk slower, Baldwin?

"Surely you see the difference, at the very least, between asking for the resignations of appointees you didn't appoint and asking for the resignations of those you did appoint who have solid positive reviews?"

Maybe we don't give a "crap" because you are comparing two different things: One common, the other criminal.
 
389Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 09:25
The guy who is in favor of the illegal and unjustified firings of well-performing government attorneys and disqualification of qualified candidates merely on the basis of their involvement in organizations that are deemed "liberal" is accusing everyone who is NOT in favor of that of being "unprincipled and hypocritical."

LOL. It wouldn't be so damned funny if it weren't coming for the most allegedly pious guy on this board.
 
390Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 13:14
Monica Goodling, a senior aide to former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales broke the law by using politics to guide their hiring decisions for a wide range of important department positions, slowing the hiring process at critical times and damaging the department’s credibility and independence, an internal report concluded Monday.
In one case, for instance, Ms. Goodling slowed the hiring of a prosecutor in the United States attorney’s office in Washington, D.C., for a vacancy because she said she was concerned that he was a “liberal Democrat.” After the United States attorney, Jeffrey Taylor, complained to her supervisors, he was allowed to hire the candidate anyway. Ms. Goodling interviewed the woman herself for possible positions and wrote in her notes such phrases as “pro-God in public life,” and “pro-marriage, anti-civil union.” She was eventually hired as a career prosecutor.

Ms. Goodling also conducted extensive searches on the Internet to glean the political or ideological leanings of candidates for career positions, the report found. She and other Justice Department supervisors would look for key phrases like “abortion,” “homosexual,” “guns,” or “Florida re-count” to get information on a candidate’s political leanings.
 
391Perm Dude
      ID: 151157612
      Sat, Dec 06, 2008, 14:03
Are the prosecutors circling?
 
392Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Aug 11, 2009, 19:10
In the Unsurprising News of the Year category, documents show that Rove was personally involved in the firing of the AGs.