Forum: pol
Page 2872
Subject: Iraq Continued...


  Posted by: Perm Dude - [5634267] Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 15:16

Previous thread was getting too long.

Question of the day: Have the writers of the Editorial Page of the Wall Street Journal lost their fIcking mind?
 
1sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 16:56
in a word? Yes.
 
2Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:18
Thot experiment:

Suppose a president felt that 'sabre-rattling' was a crucial tool in combatting terrorism.

Suppose the most powerful congressional member and a member of the opposing party were to respond to every act of 'sabre-rattling' by going to the target government to tell them not to worry, the president's threats were all BS...

Is this the way you want foreign policy conducted and should it be perfectly legal for her to do?
 
3sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:21
First..."every act of sabre rattling, hasnt drawn any such response. There fore, your entire premise is faulty.

Second...What of the Rep Congress members who are at this moment, visiting the Syrian Govt? Is THEIR visit cause for Felony charges too?

Third...Based on this Presidents "feelings" to date on what is a "crucial tool", I'd suggest that anything it took, short of a bullet, would be worth employing in order to stop him.
 
4Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:28
Ok, Sarge believes Republican presidents shouldn't be allowed to run foreign policy.

Anyone else care to take the experiment?
 
5Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:31
Just for Sarge:

So how should that work in the future?

Just switch the state dept to answer to the leader of the house instead of the president? Only when Republicans are voted into the WH?
 
6biliruben
ID: 52014814
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:35
If a president has no faith, interest or ability to conduct even to smallest diplomatic effort in good faith, and his sole idea of foriegn policy uses exclusively a barrel of a gun, then he forces your hand. If you are out of gun barrels, as we currently are, and he is so completely incompetent as to:

1) not realize he's out of guns
2) broaden his diplomatic repetoire, given 1);

Congress not only has a right, but an absolute obligation to step in and do something before he destroys our nation's reputation and maims and kills a good portion of our young men with his arrogance, hubris and complete lack of competence.
 
7Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:38
Ah, so Congress should feel morally obligated to hand Iran, N. Korea, Syria carte blanche to ignore whatever the president says and proceed fullspeed ahead to whatever mischief they have in mind?
 
8biliruben
ID: 52014814
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:40
Wake up, Baldwin. They already have carte blanche.

Bush gave it to him when over-extended us in his personal vendetta in Iraq.

Everyone knows all he can do is blow smoke now. His military is stretched to breaking and the American people will no longer follow a fool.

Carte Blanche acheived.
 
9Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:41
Note to Boxman:

Follow this thread to access Dem chances in the next presidential election.
 
10Perm Dude
ID: 5634267
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:49
#2: Absolutely. And you do to, judging from your cheering on of Gingrich when he went around Clinton.

Some differences:

Instead of bashing Bush, Pelosi did nothing except say exactly what Bush wants Syria to do.

Second, Pelosi is doing exactly what the Baker & Hamilton commission said.

And "saber-rattling" isn't "a crucial tool." It is Bush's only tool. Pelosi has a higher calling to save lives here.

In this Easter season, have you forgotten "Blessed are the peacemakers" Baldwin?
 
11Perm Dude
ID: 5634267
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 17:52
Ah, so Congress should feel morally obligated to hand Iran, N. Korea, Syria carte blanche to ignore whatever the president says and proceed fullspeed ahead to whatever mischief they have in mind?

I missed this little spin! ROFL! Yes, telling Assad to cut the suicide bombers who go into Iraq is "carte blanche" to ignore the president. HAHAHAHA.

You don't even see a gift when it is handed to you, Baldwin. You're so partisan you actual argue against your own best interests.
 
12Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 18:04
The day I think anything Pelosi does is a gift...LOL
 
13sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 18:12
Translation...I'm so partisan, even if she did do something right, I'd deny it.
 
14Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 18:26
I'm sure that wild-eyed freak must be right twice a day.
 
15biliruben
ID: 52014814
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 18:28
Do you hate Pelosi or Clinton more?

Is there a woman with power you like, Baldwin?

 
16sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 18:42
I'm sure that wild-eyed freak must be right twice a day.

Which at a minimum, would make her "right" not less than 730 more times over the past year than that beady-eyed freak in the WH.

C'mon Baldwin. Surely you can growup better than that.
 
17Perm Dude
ID: 5634267
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 18:45
I thought he was talking about Jesus.
 
18Pancho Villa
ID: 42231410
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 18:48
And then, there's always the possibilty that Bush's protestations are just posturing to save face.

All the talk about Bush being opposed to her visit, therefore, would be no more than media jargon, intended for local consumption in the United States. This would mean that Pelosi was in Damascus because Bush wanted her to be in Damascus. Opposing the visit would save him a lot of face, given all his rising rhetoric in recent years on Syria.

Indeed, Bush has raised the anti-Syrian tone to such an extent that it has became too difficult for him to retreat without embarrassing himself. Bush realized he was wrong - the Syrians were right - and he needed a back channel to Damascus to help bring about stability to Lebanon and Palestine - and, more important, Iraq.

True, Pelosi was carrying a message from the Israelis, but the real substance of her visit was a message from Washington, DC. The real message was: we need the Syrians.

The Americans have been searching for ways to re-engage the Syrians in recent weeks. Pelosi in Damascus, showering the Syrians with praise - and confidence - was an excellent way to do that. The Americans realized, as was stated in the Iraq Study
Group Report, that Iraq cannot be stabilized without the Syrians and the Iranians.

Talking to both Syria and Iran would simply be too difficult for Washington. Yet continuing to isolate - and ignore - both countries would also be impossible. The United States has a choice: it's either Syria or Iran. It chose Syria. That country, after all, can be talked to. Its leaders have never been anti-American (not in the Iranian sense of the word) and tension did not arise until the US invaded Iraq in 2003.

link

I suppose anything's possible, but I have a hard time believing Bush has the capacity to be so sneaky. Now, Cheney....
 
19Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 19:45
Biliruben

Queen Victoria

 
20Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 22:58
Larry Elder
 
21Perm Dude
ID: 5634267
Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 23:13
Another load of lies and false comparisons.

I liked the lie about David Kaye, however. Gave his argument the sheen of acceptability that a hand-picked, after the fact weapons inspector might give. Kind of like those slides Powell had at the UN. Too bad Bush himself, in 2004, came to the opposite conclusion as Elder.

Elder, of course, still believes that thousands of WMD left via magic pixie dust or some sort, and are on a different plane of existence, or Syria, or somewhere.

The first stage of death and dying is denial, according to Elisabeth Kubler-Ross...
 
22Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 00:23
My condolances.
 
23Perm Dude
ID: 5435476
Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 08:55
It is your GOP that is dying, Baldwin.
 
24Perm Dude
ID: 29358107
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 12:39
Bush memo to Congress: Please come to the White House so you can all take a long, hard look at my middle finger.

I literally laughed out loud when I read that line in the linked post.

Bush apparently believes he can just keep repeating himself in order to get his way. It worked for 6 years, so I can see how the process has become so ingrained.
 
25Tree
ID: 29082512
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 13:00
Bush had six years of his ass being kissed.

now, the only one kissing his ass is himself, because he's got his head so far up it.

that is fantastic:

President Bush on Tuesday invited Democrats to discuss their standoff over a war-spending bill, but he made clear he would not change his position opposing troop withdrawals. The White House bluntly said the meeting would not be a negotiation.
 
26Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 14:22
It's a meet and great with tea and crackers.
 
27sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 14:26
Lets see, if Congress appropriates funds, and the Pres vetoes the bill because of some provisions....please enlighten me as to how that constitutes Dems NOT supporting the troops? If the Pres kills the funding, isnt it HE is denying the troops what they need?
 
28walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 14:43
I think Bush honestly feels that Congress works for him. That he is the boss and if they disagree, his word trumps all. To some degree he is right, but not to the degree he projects. He's all bluster and bluff, and kinda funny, cos he cannot talk too well anymore. I like the way he has twisted around the troop support thing, as sarge noticed...however, it's so dummied down, that even dumb Americans get who is getting in the way of the funds.

His latest comment was: "I wish the Dems would just finish the bill with the timelines already, so I can veto it, and they can then get down to business to writing a clean bill that I need to finance the war."

Yessir Master President! You ask and we provide.

Like I said in another thread, I think Congress is just one big layer of bureaucracy to Cheney and Bush. They'd love to get rid of it.

- walk
 
29Jag
ID: 14849321
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 18:37
Don't brag about your boys passing a bill full of pork, to take advantage of the war for political gains, it is as low as you can go, of course the Democrats have been using the war to further their political agenda for years now.
 
30Perm Dude
ID: 29358107
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 18:43
Yes, the Dems have been in control of Congress for years, and passed the Highway Bill, the 2003 Omnibus Spending Bill, and don't forget the Bridge to Nowhere.

Which party, again, used earmarks to fatten bills?

Again, you accuse Democrats, without evidence, of doing exactly what your party has been doing for years now.
 
31sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 19:18
<---The more of Jags posts this one reads, the more convinced I become, that he is an irate 9 yr old regurgitating what he hears his father say.
 
32Jag
ID: 14849321
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 19:45
Come on, when it comes to pork, the Dems are by far the masters and the King of Pork is Lord Byrd. That's how he has kept his job, because he was an idiot even before he became senile.

Lets stay on topic. I would love to see you justify the pork added to the military funding bill.

Sarge, sometimes I think you get all your political points by watching Rosie O'Donnel on The View. BTW, do you miss Star Jones?
 
33Jag
ID: 14849321
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 19:53
Don Young is an embarassment and should be drummed from the Republican party.
 
34Perm Dude
ID: 29358107
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 19:57
Last time Dems had control of the Executive Branch, they shrunk the size of government (in terms of money and employees) to the smallest size in 30 years.

They balanced the budget.

They insisted upon a PAYGO system.

They instituted private-sector accountability in the federal government, mandating real progress toward stated goals with automatic budget termination if targets were unmet.

Republicans, on the other hand, have ballooned government to its largest size ever. Bush has never vetoed a spending bill, of any size, ever.
 
35Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 19:57
when it comes to pork, the Dems are by far the masters

Not today's Dems, not when compared with today's Republicans. Not by any reasonable measurable standard, anyway.


I would love to see you justify the pork added to the military funding bill.

There is no justification. There is only the example set by the party that recently controlled Congress. And that is no example to legislate by.
 
36Perm Dude
ID: 29358107
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 20:06
A list of some of the pork

It is hard to justify any of it. It is even harder to justify Dems as being big pork producers in light of our current budget and our recent history.
 
37Jag
ID: 14849321
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 20:09
If I remember right, during the balance budget, the Republicans had control of Congress and that was part of their Contract with America. Congress sets the budget. Clinton tried to bankrupt us with socialize medicine, so don't even try to pretend like Democrats are anything but Bureaucratic Freespenders. The war threw off the budget for Bush not pork spending.
 
38Perm Dude
ID: 29358107
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 20:16
The War on Terror is off-budget Jag. None of the increase in military spending is even counted against the budget.

And, even in your alternate universe in which it was, discretionary spending is up, up up, up under your man.

I've given props to Gingrich in the past on the balanced budget. He hated Clinton but they worked together to bring down the size of government. Of course, with the line-item veto, Clinton knew he could simply line out any Republican pork if Gingrich when back on their deals. So don't spend too much time applauding the Contract on America. Particularly since it was your party which broke it.
 
39Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 20:21
There was ever a line-item veto in congress?
 
40Baldwin
ID: 3503618
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 20:22
In Reagan's daydreams maybe.

I really missed a huge fact if that is true.
 
41Jag
ID: 14849321
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 20:35
Perm, you hit one of the main reasons I detest Nancy Pelosi. She makes no attempt to better the country, just the Democrat party. I remember right after Katrina, she had a private session with Bush and asked him about the problems dealing with the aftermath, Bush replied, "What problems" which I would also, so to get down to the basics. She decline to name specific problems, then leaves the room has a press conference and calls the the President clueless and dangerous. You can not work with a bitch like that. Even the trip to the Middle East is just a way of trying to embarass the President. The woman has NO character.
 
42Tree
ID: 33381018
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 23:31
You can not work with a bitch like that.

so i guess we can add sexism and misogyny to the list of your finer attributes.

Even the trip to the Middle East is just a way of trying to embarass the President.

he wouldn't need to be embarassed if he hadn't done a fine job of F*cking things up there even more so then they already were.

she went to go talk peace, something Bush seems unwilling to do. that's on him, not on her.

 
43Jag
ID: 14849321
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 23:51
She has no authority to talk peace.

If she were a man, I would call her a bastard. Bush may screw up, but everything he does, he does for the country, he damn sure isn't trying to help his party. Everything Pelosi does, she does to help her party and the country be damned. There are few people I genuinely dislike, Jimmy Carter is an idiot and Clinton is a used car salesman, but I don't hate them. Pelosi is hypocritical, two-face, self-obsessed BITCH.
 
44Perm Dude
ID: 13311021
Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 23:58
You think passing message of peace is good for the country? According to a Republican Congressman who accompanied Pelosi (the bastard), she didn't say anything Bush hasn't said.

The difference is that she had the balls to say it to their face.

#39: Yes, Clinton used a line-item veto. Passed by Congress in 1996 (part of the Contract on America, as I recall--certainly is was a big part of accountability). It was declared unconstitional by the Supreme Court in 1998.
 
45Pancho Villa
ID: 42231410
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 00:19
She has no authority

She was probably confused by the Republican precedent.

As Glenn Greenwald notes, House Speaker Newt Gingrich traveled to China in March of 1997 and threatened military action in the event of an attack on Taiwan. He notes a marked contrast in the tone of the coverage between that trip and Nancy Pelosi's current trip to Syria.

So let's get to work. What did conservative commentators and Republicans say about the proper role of the House Speaker in foreign affairs around the time of Gingrich's China trip?

Here's Pat Buchanan. Back in 1997, though he differed with Gingrich on China policy, he very clearly stated that Congress had a proper role in foreign policy and indeed should "run" it. From the Associated Press, March 18, 1997 (via Nexis):

Speaking at a news conference organized by the conservative magazine "Human Events," Buchanan said the Clinton administration's policy of constructive engagement with the Chinese was a failure...
"It's now up to Congress to run foreign policy and it has the power to overturn the president's decision" on China's trade status, expected in June, Buchanan said. "There is time to organize a campaign" to influence Congress, "and this is a battle we can win."

GOP House leader John Boehner as a Congressman in 1997 went along on Gingrich's trip to China and praised the idea of it. From a press conference on April 9, 1997 (via Nexis):

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH): Well, let me just say that the speaker, Mr. Dingell, and the rest of my colleagues, were diplomatic; they were respectful of the countries that we visited -- but I think very clear in terms of our interest; the role of democracy that should [evolve ?] in more of these countries -- the issue of human rights. And I know from my own background, it was a very educational trip.
************************************

So, Jag, feel free to call Gingrich, Buchanan and Boehner bastards.
 
46Jag
ID: 14849321
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 02:24
The trip to the Middle East didn't bother me near as much as her comments during Katrina. It showed Bush has 0 chance to work with her.

I don't know what Gingrich's motives were, he might of went there to pick up an Asian chick, I don't know what Clinton's thoughts were on his going, but I do know Pelosi does not do anything unless it is to benefit herself or the Democrats and she was asked by the Whitehouse not to go.

The Middle East is all about strength and bravado. As I said before, you can't deal with them as you would normal countries. Every time a President has back down, he has empowered the terrorists and the Mullahs, that includes Reagan. It doean't matter how nice we are, hell, you Liberals could personally give every Islamic Facist a BJ and they would still despise you. They are taught in school, in their temples and in the media to hate America, no matter what we do, until Libeals understand this, they will remain a hindrance to solving the Middle East crisis.

Pelosi's and the Democrats empower the fascists by weakening the President. I would go as far as to say if it were not for Liberals in this country and others, there would be no problems in the Middle East.

 
47Perm Dude
ID: 13311021
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 02:44
Bush is at 29%. Pelosi couldn't possibly "weaken" him anymore than he already is.

So, if it weren't for liberals then the Middle East would be a happy playground? I've really got to start of thread of these Jagisms.
 
48Jag
ID: 14849321
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 07:03
Tree, I no longer have misogyny, I got a shot of penicillin and it cleared right up.
 
49Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 07:18
This idea that there is a viable and entirely achievable "solution" to the Middle East that is prevented only by "liberals" has to be the best yet.
 
50sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 08:19
They are taught in school, in their temples and in the media to hate America,...

Careful Jag, you might accidentally type something with a resemblance to truth.

IMHO, the above statement is largely correct. You then ignore the ramifications of this however, and go on a liberal bashing tirade. War, frce of arms, bombs, will NOT change a mindset. It may garner some degree of pacivity. Temporarily. But the undercurrent will still be strong and vile toward the military force and the nation it represents. Counter-education, winning the hearts of the "many", is how this war has to bo fought. NOT with Abrahms and Apaches, but with patience, communication and time.
 
51Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 09:22
Jag - in addition to racism and misogyny, i should also credit you for consistency.

your posts are so full of mis-truths, avoidances, subject changes, and just some damned good humour, i'm not entirely unconvinced that you're anything but a gimmick poster going the Colbert route on this board.
 
52Jag
ID: 14849321
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 09:24
Sarge, that makes for a great bumper sticker, but a lousy foreign policy dealing with radical Muslims. Carter tried to beg and bribe for the release of American hostages and it just made the Facist support stronger. It wasn't until they saw Reagan about to take office, that they decided to release their captives. Now you can lie to yourself and everyone on this forum, but it was only the FEAR of a strong President coming into power, that forced them into releasing the hostages. You can't win their hearts if they believe in their hearts that all other religions must die. You can't deal with these people, because you can't give them what they want, an Islamic world.
 
53Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 09:39
Carter tried to beg and bribe for the release of American hostages and it just made the Facist support stronger. It wasn't until they saw Reagan about to take office, that they decided to release their captives. Now you can lie to yourself and everyone on this forum, but it was only the FEAR of a strong President coming into power, that forced them into releasing the hostages.

go do your research.

the Algiers Accords had a lot to do with the hostages being released, particularly the first part which Carter agreed to - against his better judgement - which basically said that the U.S wouldn't interfere with Iran's policies.

i also think they were released on that day to upstage Reagan's inauguration, but i don't believe for a minute that any "fear" played into it.
 
54Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 10:35
another layer of insulation?

seems the Bush administration has a job open, but no one qualified wants it.

3 generals spurn war 'czar' post

"The very fundamental issue is, they don't know where the hell they're going," said retired Marine Gen. John J. "Jack" Sheehan, a former top NATO commander who was among those rejecting the job. Sheehan said he believes that Vice President Cheney and his hawkish allies remain more powerful within the administration than pragmatists looking for a way out of Iraq. "So rather than go over there, develop an ulcer and eventually leave, I said, 'No, thanks,' " he said.

 
55Perm Dude
ID: 48329127
Thu, Apr 12, 2007, 14:07
Surge math

re #54: The White House wants to appoint a high-powered czar to oversee the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with authority to issue directions to the Pentagon, the State Department and other agencies...

Don't we already have that guy? Elect him every four years...?
 
56sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Mon, Apr 16, 2007, 22:13
"That's what we're supposed to do - we're supposed to talk out our differences," Bush said. "I'm looking forward to the meeting. I hope the Democratic leadership will drop their unreasonable demands for a precipitous withdrawal."

from:

Bush: Dems owe a vote for Iraq funding bill


squeeze me shrub???? If indeed we're supposed to talk bout our differences, how is an opposing ideas being tenaciously held to w-r-o-n-g, when you're own tenacious grasping is r-i-g-h-t? By talk about, one would logically infer that you mean discuss with an open mind and negotiate something. You wont negotiate but expect the Dem leadership to simply surrendr their opposition to this war, despite that opposition being what got them elected into the majority. IOW, you want them to ignore the will of the people...


sorry pal...aint gonna happen.
 
57Perm Dude
ID: 35342167
Mon, Apr 16, 2007, 22:19
They already had a vote.

Bush is treating the election of 2006 as like winning the lottery: Some unforseen fluke that can't be duplicated and shouldn't be counted on.
 
58Tree
ID: 10351622
Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 00:08
i like how he invoked 9/11 again...it was kind of cute.
 
59sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 08:28
pathetic, would more an more appropo term IMHO.
 
60Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 14:40
Democrat consultant warns against pushing too hard in the game of "chicken" over Iraq funding. I have no idea whether this guy is right or wrong, but it would make me think were I a Democrat:
the politicians in Washington are playing a high stakes game of chicken -- one whose outcome will change the balance of power and have a profound effect on the 2008 presidential elections.

It's a dynamic I know well. In 1995, I was one of the political consultants who advised President Clinton during the government shutdown, which was brought on by another clash between another assertive Congress and an equally determined president. Then as now, the stakes were high. Had we failed, Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich would have become America's de facto prime minister. Instead, Clinton's presidency was restored.

This time, if Democrats insist on their policy and public sentiment rallies behind them, the GOP collapse on national security issues will be complete. If, however, the public blames Democrats for risking troops in Iraq, congressional Democrats will have committed a political blunder nearly as dramatic as the invasion of Iraq itself. So who should swerve first? The lessons of 1995 suggest that Democrats today are on the verge of a major mistake....
Democrats should not be misled by polls showing that most Americans support the idea of cutting off funding for the war unless benchmarks of success are reached. Of course they do, in the abstract. But Bush's counterargument -- that Democrats are prepared to undermine troops in the field -- will be a powerful one, in part because it is far more concrete than Democrats' complex, poll-tested plan.

In short, Democrats would do well to compromise. If that means accepting a "clean" supplemental funding bill, so be it. While Democrats must continue to criticize the prosecution of the war and the Bush administration's failure to promote political reconciliation, they should also recognize that the public has not yet elected a new commander in chief.

The 2008 election is the Democrats' to lose. Attempting to usurp the powers of the commander of the chief -- or risking the charge that Democrats have abandoned troops in the field -- is one of the few ways the party could jeopardize its seemingly impregnable position. The best chance to end the war is to make sure the next president is a Democrat.
Actually I think that is the position I would take were I a Democrat. Why risk blowing a sure thing?

Toral

 
61Perm Dude
ID: 1135236
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 14:48
1. Bush isn't "compromising." He's made that clear. So advising the Democrats to "compromise" is urging an option which doesn't exist.

2. The American public, so far, is seeing right through Bush's blame game. Dems have been pretty good so far in linking their bill with fully-funded troops (in fact, their bill adds more money than requested in some areas).

3. The American public, so far, are squarely behind the Dems. If this is a game of chicken, the Dems are driving a taxpayer-furnished Hummer, while Bush is in his 33% mobile.
 
62walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 15:01
April 23, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
A Hostage Situation
By PAUL KRUGMAN


There are two ways to describe the confrontation between Congress and the Bush administration over funding for the Iraq surge. You can pretend that it’s a normal political dispute. Or you can see it for what it really is: a hostage situation, in which a beleaguered President Bush, barricaded in the White House, is threatening dire consequences for innocent bystanders — the troops — if his demands aren’t met.

If this were a normal political dispute, Democrats in Congress would clearly hold the upper hand: by a huge margin, Americans say they want a timetable for withdrawal, and by a large margin they also say they trust Congress, not Mr. Bush, to do a better job handling the situation in Iraq.

But this isn’t a normal political dispute. Mr. Bush isn’t really trying to win the argument on the merits. He’s just betting that the people outside the barricade care more than he does about the fate of those innocent bystanders.

What’s at stake right now is the latest Iraq “supplemental.” Since the beginning, the administration has refused to put funding for the war in its regular budgets. Instead, it keeps saying, in effect: “Whoops! Whaddya know, we’re running out of money. Give us another $87 billion.”

At one level, this is like the behavior of an irresponsible adolescent who repeatedly runs through his allowance, each time calling his parents to tell them he’s broke and needs extra cash.

What I haven’t seen sufficiently emphasized, however, is the disdain this practice shows for the welfare of the troops, whom the administration puts in harm’s way without first ensuring that they’ll have the necessary resources.

As long as a G.O.P.-controlled Congress could be counted on to rubber-stamp the administration’s requests, you could say that this wasn’t a real problem, that the administration’s refusal to put Iraq funding in the regular budget was just part of its usual reliance on fiscal smoke and mirrors. But this time Mr. Bush decided to surge additional troops into Iraq after an election in which the public overwhelmingly rejected his war — and then dared Congress to deny him the necessary funds. As I said, it’s an act of hostage-taking.

Actually, it’s even worse than that. According to reports, the final version of the funding bill Congress will send won’t even set a hard deadline for withdrawal. It will include only an “advisory,” nonbinding date. Yet Mr. Bush plans to veto the bill all the same — and will then accuse Congress of failing to support the troops.

The whole situation brings to mind what Abraham Lincoln said, in his great Cooper Union speech in 1860, about secessionists who blamed the critics of slavery for the looming civil war: “A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, ‘Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!’ ”

So how should Congress respond to Mr. Bush’s threats?

Everyone talks about the political risks of confrontation, recalling the backlash when Newt Gingrich shut down the federal government in 1995. But there’s a big difference between trying to force a fairly popular president to accept deep cuts in Medicare — which is what the 1995 confrontation was about — and trying to get a deeply unpopular, distrusted president to set some limits on an immensely unpopular war.

Meanwhile, there are big political risks on the other side. If Congress responds to a presidential veto by offering an even weaker bill, voters may well react with disgust, concluding that the whole debate over the war was nothing but political theater.

Anyway, never mind the political calculations. Confronting Mr. Bush on Iraq has become a patriotic duty.

The fact is that Mr. Bush’s refusal to face up to the failure of his Iraq adventure, his apparent determination to spend the rest of his term in denial, has become a clear and present danger to national security. Thanks to the demands of the Iraq war, we’re already a superpower without a strategic reserve, unable to respond to crises that might erupt elsewhere in the world. And more and more military experts warn that repeated deployments in Iraq — now extended to 15 months — are breaking the back of our volunteer military.

If nothing is done to wind down this war during the 21 months — 21 months! — Mr. Bush has left, the damage may be irreparable.
 
63walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 15:03
Yeah, I read the article to which Toral linked earlier today. Krugman's article alludes to the same poker game, but he predicts the Dems can play their hand without losing. I dunno cos Bush has the greater platform in terms of giving speeches and pointing fingers than say Reid or Pelosi. While I agree with the Dem's position, I don't know if Bush will lose the "marketing war" on this. I just dunno (but hope he does cos he's wrong).

- walk
 
64Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 18:41
Everyone talks about the political risks of confrontation, recalling the backlash when Newt Gingrich shut down the federal government in 1995. But there’s a big difference between trying to force a fairly popular president to accept deep cuts in Medicare — which is what the 1995 confrontation was about — and trying to get a deeply unpopular, distrusted president to set some limits on an immensely unpopular war.


That paragraph there sums it up best, you cannot compare this to the 1995 debacle.

1995 - extremely popular President in showdown with newly elected Congress sent to "balance" Washington. Led by unpopular, polarizing loudmouth unable to make the distinction between the nation's distaste for "nationalized medicine" and the overwhelmingly loved and adored Medicare program, Gingrich stumbled every step of the way.

2007 - extremely unpopular President in showdown with a Congress elected as a stinging rebuke to his policies, especially Iraq. The war in Iraq is extremely unpopular and people want it to end. The Democrats can and will look very reasonable in this debate... hey, we just want the Iraqi's to start to take things into their own hands. Bush is pulling the stunt that Americans cannot palate anymore, "I'm right, I'm the Decider, blah, blah, blah." You could not be less like Abe Lincoln if you had a vagiña! (That's for you, Katie)
 
65Toral
ID: 52621719
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 19:11
You have your timelines wrong. Going into the budget period, Gingrich and the Republican Congress was still popular, the GOP's (planned) budget cuts were polling well, and Clinton was still unpopular. It was the budget showdown which, more than any one other thing, contributed to turning those approval ratings around. Which is why Schoen counsels against assuming unnecessary risk.

However it's fine with me if the Dems take a hard line. After the President vetoes the appropriations bill, they can refuse to appropriate any further money at all as far as I am concerned. The best thing that could happen to the GOP right now is for the Dems to actually end the war somehow.

Toral
 
66Perm Dude
ID: 443352314
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 19:27
Toral is exactly right about the timing. Newt was riding high, and the reason the fall came so quickly is that he really overplayed his hand. He didn't think Clinton had the balls to close down the federal government, and Clinton called his bluff.

The best thing that could happen to the GOP right now is for the Dems to actually end the war somehow. Well, the best thing for America is for that to happen. But I wouldn't count on the GOP getting up quickly--if the Dems are sucessful it'll be because of a number of Republicans working with them, and that's something that will make for some very interesting GOP primaries.

And unless federal Republicans start finding some of that old-style small government religion, and soon, they have a lot of explaining to do as the nation starts concentrating on domestic issues.
 
67Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 19:36
"Bill Moyers Journal: Buying the War" This Wednesday on PBS
America's media -- Seattle's daily newspapers included -- failed its citizens in the run-up to the Iraq war, reporting lies as fact and regurgitating the government's party line almost completely devoid of skepticism. The journalist's duty to cut through the fog on behalf of this country's citizens comes with the press pass. Bill Moyers crystallizes that argument beautifully in Wednesday night's "Buying the War," a harsh look at the damaging manipulation of our nation's media in the months between 9/11 and the beginning of the Iraq war. As medicinal as it is sobering, this is the kind of work that should be shown to journalism students as a warning about how dangerous a cowed press can be to democracy's health.
 
68Perm Dude
ID: 443352314
Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 22:28
Apparently believing we should leave Iraq is now a sign of "bad character" according to the White House.

Anyone tell that to the four generals who turned down the job of "war czar?" How about these guys? Or these two Major Generals?
 
69walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 02:26
First it's unpatriotic to disagree, then it's being a coward ("cut & run"), and now it's "bad character" (e.g. leaving the Iraqi's defenseless). Interesting angle. I think while this one's a good propanda tactic, it's just too late in a losing game where finally (finally!) even the drunk supportive fans who can barely think realize the score is out of hand, and the game is lost. It's never gonna happen that Bush/Cheney will admit failure, so this is what they have left.

Yesterday Romney said the same thing, but when asked if any of his 5 war-aged eligible sons was enlisting, he said: "I dunno."

- walk
 
70Perm Dude
ID: 313532323
Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 15:10
DeLay: Reid and Pelosi very very close to treason.

Has anybody else noticed that every day brings palpably more wild-eyed and unhinged attacks from the folks who either are in favor of the war or the folks who are for some reason instinctually opposed to the Dems' aggressive antiwar stance?

The next step for the Dems: Call them on it. We're talking about a crime--you either did it or you didn't. Dare Republicans to bring people up on treason charges for daring to tell the truth about Iraq.

Reid's statement. Love that first line. I don't think the Dems are going to back down, and the Administration, looking for them to blink, are doing to be very public about not having a Plan B.
 
71Perm Dude
ID: 31344257
Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 12:39
Trailer for "Taxi to the Darkside"
 
72walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 14:11
I think the neocons are sticking to their strategy of always being on the offensive and never relenting. This strategy potentially keeps the opponent on the defensive, explaining their statements, instead of also on the offensive, questioning the strategy and tactics of the Admin. I think this worked pre Nov, 2006, but now Reid is just shrugging off the nonsensical rhetoric from Bush and Cheney and continuing to call them on their failed war.

I love this pathetic spin from Bush: "Last November the American people said they were frustrated and wanted change in our strategy in Iraq. I listened. Today General David Petraeus is carrying out a strategy that is dramatically different from our previous course. But the American people did not vote for failure, and that is precisely what the Democratic leadership’s bill would guarantee.

They are hoping that the general public hears more of their anti-anti-war comments and it just "sticks" due to their authoritarian role and media coverage. Reid does not have the same platform as bush. "New strategy," yeah, right.

I wish the Dems would go further, and more of them (not just Reid). They should say that no one voted for more American deaths (there have been, not just in #, but proportionally more, due to the surge), and no one voted for an endless continuation of the war, which is what bush and co are (counter)-proposing. They should say that bush and cheney are the "almost treasonous" one's who have repeatedly deceived and manipulated information to start and continue the war, which has been handled very poorly militarily, and also has a number of unusual and highly suspect financial decisions (e.g. outsourcing, no-bid contracts, lack of funds to help wounded soldiers, lack of proper armor, lack of proper budgeting for the war in lieu of emergencing funding," etc.). That all of this adds up to more impeachable offenses than even Nixon. Go long Harry!

- walk
 
73Pancho Villa
ID: 42231410
Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 16:49
The politics of this war is embarrassing from both sides.

While I've made no attempt to hide my contempt for Bush and his neo-cronies for starting and blundering their way through this fiasco, I have equal contempt for Harry Reid for not realistically assessing a premature troop withdrawl or, heaven forbid, applaud the administration for some of the real changes in policy that are likely to have positive results; primarily, treating the Sunni insurgency as a possible ally against the foreign jihadists, instead of simply lumping them into the "terrorist" category. As I've been saying for years, security in Iraq can only be accomplished with regional policing by the sects that dominate their regions. Expecting the Sunnis to accept a Shiite/Kurd dominated national police force made no more sense than the Kurds and Shiites being under the gun of Sunni Baathists in Saddam's Iraq.

Further, as Toral points out in #60, the current Democratic position runs the risk of alienating the public through obstructionist tactics, and usurping the President's role as commander-in-chief.

IMO, the Democrats would be better served, and would the nation, if they forced Bush to publicly state his timeline for Iraq, rather than imposing their own. For years, Bush's stance has been that as soon as the Iraqi forces were prepared to provide for their own security, the troops would start coming home. So it has to be a concern that training Iraqi troops is no longer a priority.

WASHINGTON - Military planners have abandoned the idea that standing up Iraqi troops will enable American soldiers to start coming home soon and now believe that U.S. troops will have to defeat the insurgents and secure control of troubled provinces.


Training Iraqi troops, which had been the cornerstone of the Bush administration's Iraq policy since 2005, has dropped in priority, officials in Baghdad and Washington said.


No change has been announced, and a Pentagon spokesman, Col. Gary Keck, said training Iraqis remains important. "We are just adding another leg to our mission," Keck said, referring to the greater U.S. role in establishing security that new troops arriving in Iraq will undertake.


But evidence has been building for months that training Iraqi troops is no longer the focus of U.S. policy. Pentagon officials said they know of no new training resources that have been included in U.S. plans to dispatch 28,000 additional troops to Iraq. The officials spoke only on the condition of anonymity because they aren't authorized to discuss the policy shift publicly. Defense Secretary Robert Gates made no public mention of training Iraqi troops on Thursday during a visit to Iraq.


In a reflection of the need for more U.S. troops, the Pentagon decided earlier this month to increase the length of U.S. Army tours in Iraq from 12 to 15 months. The extension came amid speculation that the U.S. commander there, Army Gen. David Petraeus, will ask that the troop increase be maintained well into 2008.


Additionally, Democrats, or all Americans, should be questioning the construction of the world's largest embassy and what appear to be at least 12
permanent military bases.

This nation has every right to know what kind of timeline to expect in our military involvement with Iraq, and Congress has every right to question the funding of the involvement without setting their own timelines.
 
74Perm Dude
ID: 31344257
Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 21:16
I think the Dems can make a better case for their own by pointing out all of the missed deadlines that the Administration has set. What use is an Administrative deadline if there are no repercussions for missing them?

The American public has shown they are squarely behind setting withdrawals, even when polls frame the point as a "defeat."

Finally, Dems can easily make the case that their stepping in with these withdrawals (which are non-binding, BTW) wouldn't be necessary if the Administration hadn't botched nearly every step of this war. We're now in Iraq longer than we were in World War II.
 
75walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 10:46
Right, PD. I think the Dems just need to continue to pound the points that the war is not going well, the surge is not having a profound positive impact (nor should it, but that's besides the point), the admin is doing very little by way of the Iraq Study Group (diplomacy), and without any benchmarks or deadlines, there's no end in sight -- more Americans and Iraqi's will be killed and wounded(and a lot more $ spent). They also need to say more forcefully that nothing Cheney and Bush predicted about the war was correct, so they have no credibility in making predictions about what would happen if we have withdrawal dates, and also to repeat what Pelosi said in that Americans voted for a change in Iraq, not an escalation, but a way out...a way out of being in the middle of an unwinnable civil war. This is important cos the Bush supporters continue to paint Iraq as a war against Al Quaida, and I don't think that's the only "foe" in the current equation. Lastly, I think the Dems should really hit hard with: "What other recourse is there but to pull back?" A tiny troop surge is not going to change things, particularly without any drastic change in diplomacy or a federalist system in Iraq. This conflict will be infinite, endless and truly weaken our nation both militarily and economically. Our president says this is for our security, but his very actions are doing just the opposite. They need to hammer this stuff home hard.

- walk
 
76Pancho Villa
ID: 42231410
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 11:31
While I'm tempted to agree with some of the points made by PD and walk, I fear that partisan blinders and an inante distrust of the administration is keeping you from seeing Iraq objectively.

Understandable.

But there's a few things that must be addressed sans the partisan blinders. It's counter-productive to state that:

I think the Dems just need to continue to pound the points that the war is not going well, the surge is not having a profound positive impact (nor should it, but that's besides the point)

If Dems want an entirely negative message, then those points need to be pounded, but I think Americans will see that as defeatist, and America likes a winner. Beyond that, what should be important is what is best for the nation, not the political parties. The Republican message that Democrats want to surrender and allow Iraq to be overrun with terrorists is a stronger message than Dems realize, even if it is a mostly dishonest message.

The attention should be directed to "where do we go from here" as opposed to the avalanche of mistakes that got us to this point. Some Democrat(obviously not Lieberman) should step up and point out that there are aspects of the new strategy that have merit, even if they are being implemented years after they should have been. It's too bad Biden has so little national credibility and is such a hardened partisan, because he would be the most likely candidate to lead such a charge. After all, some of the new administration strategy is based on the Biden/Gelb position paper from a year ago.



 
77Perm Dude
ID: 56343267
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 11:40
Well, that was walk's point, PV, not mine. I do agree that Dems need to promote their message in a positive way, but the broken record of this Administration also needs to be confronted. And while one can't get around the fact that taking the Administration to task for being unrealistic will have a negative tone, I don't believe the Dems should allow claims by the Administration (or Guiliani, for that matter) about Democrats to go unchallenged.

That is, of course, very partisan. But unfortunately the Administration long ago injected partisanship into the War on Terror and the Iraqi War long ago. We're not really able to get back to those non-cynical days after 9/11, unfortunately.
 
78Tree
ID: 29082512
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 12:55
PV - at this point, the Dems have to go partisan with balls to the wall, they have to show just how badly this war has gone, they have to fight the attack dogs with attack dogs of their own, and, of course, really need to offer a viable solution to the Iraq problem.

if that problem is withdrawal, then they need to buck up and go wit hit.

there can be no more playing nice. playing nice lost the 2004 election for Kerry, who somehow allowed himself - a decorated war veteran - to be seen as a coward and a person who would be soft on terrorism.

the PR by the Republicans over the last half-dozen years has been brilliant. they won the marketing war because they saw that American wanted to be pissed off, and they played it up.

now, the Dems have to turn that around, and use it in their favor, and slowly, but surely, it seems they are.
 
79Tree
ID: 29082512
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 13:09
to steal SZ's gimmick:

 
80walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 17:09
Right, Tree.

PV: I don't mean to say the Dems have to run a negative campaign, and I don't mean to say this is Dem thing vs. Republican thing for me, although it is how it has come to be.

What I want is the right outcome. I believe the administration just wants to save face and maybe also maintain some direct control in the oil region. I feel that since bush's public speaking platform is the largest, and since he chooses to portray the failure of the war now on the Dems legislation which would not unconditionally continue to fund the troops, the Dems have to then argue back in turn how inept the admin is running the war and trying establish peace through other means. Like Tree said, if the Admin is unwilling to take accountability for its mistakes, truly change course, take more interest in the well-being of Iraqi civilians and American troops, be fiscally responsible (these funds should be in the annual budget, not through stamped emergency funding bills), and at the same time say "it's the Dem's fault," then the Dems have to be equally "Fox-y" and say: "No, you incompetent idiot, you have fcuked this thing up worse than anyone, no one trusts you do fix it, you can't fix it, you don't have the talent to fix it, and we have to try and do damage control. This is no-win situation, so the lesser of two evils is to (e.g. carve up Iraq into a federalist state a la Biden plan), reduce our troops, continue to provide some security and training, and largely disengage from refereeing a civil war/being sitting ducks for terrorist attacks."

Something like that. Sorry if it's so negative, but the Dems taking the high road in the past bushian years has not been effective in changing the direction of public sentiment or admin policy.

- walk
 
81walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 17:10
"Right Tree and PD." (sorry about that...). Always appreciate your wisdom here.

- walk
 
82walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 17:18
I know it's buried in my post, but the Dems do have some ideas about how to settle Iraq down (e.g. 3 regions). However, at this stage of sound-bytes and rhetoric and egos, all there's time to say is what folks can quickly hear and process.

I also don't know what's going to happen in Iraq if we withdrawal, but I have no qualms about withdrawing (the republicans do though -- "never surrender!"), and no problems trying to talk to other countries (Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Syria) to help out. We went in alone, under-staffed, under-resourced, over-privatized, over-spending, and now cannot fix it on our own due to insufficient resources. The surge, even if effective, cannot fix it alone, and our admin has offered no other ideas or resources to support the surge. Even Petraeus says the effort is only 20% military.

At the end of the day, I dunno if the Dems are just better off saying: "You know what Mr. President, it does not matter what you ask for, you and your henchman Cheney are just bad, incompetent and unable to fix this mess. It's obvious. You're losers. Let us fix it, or at least try. You don't even listen to others. Just resign or get out of the way." I dunno, a coupe or something. Impeachment. It's just ridiculous that these guys are still on the job.

I know I am just ranting, and not at you at all PV, it's really venting.

- walk
 
83Perm Dude
ID: 837278
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 12:56
This WaPo piece is a virtual quote machine!

Nice of the Republicans to tighten their own noose.

BTW, I don't know if anyone else noticed, but the Iraqi Parliament, apparently because they've accomplished so much already this year, is taking two months off this summer.

Let's them go home, relax, and reload I guess.
 
84boikin
ID: 59831214
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 13:07
If i were the Bush admistration and were so confident that the Dems are the cause of the problems in war, i would give them complete control of the what we should do now. I mean they have nothing to lose, if turns out that the dems got plans and they work they can say hey look we made the right call and people will should look favorable on that and if they are right that the Dems are just as incopanent and Iraq turns into a bigger mess you can say hey look i told you so and destroy the democratic party in the process. Kind of no loose sitiuation for them, then again that is why i am not a political stratgist.
 
85Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 14:14
I mean they have nothing to lose

Well sure they do, succumbing to the political opposition never plays well with a constituancy. A Democrat-orchestrated failure in Iraq (a pullout followed by all-out anarchy in Iraq, presumably) might turn the moderates away from the Democrats, but it would forever destroy Bush's legacy among every type of foreign policy conservative.

Further, if Bush believes his projections regarding what would happen back in the states following a pullout are true (that "the terrorists" would follow us home) giving in to Democrats on the issue puts the country in terrible danger.

And of course there's also the part that if they're right in that a continued strong military presence in Iraq will eventually quell the hostilities there, giving in to Democrats would mean foregoing a great political victory (not to mention a great victory for Iraq) that would surely outdo the benefits of a political defeat for the opposition.
 
86boikin
ID: 59831214
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 14:50
MITH, i agree in genral with your statement expect maybe the part about legacy with foreign policy conservatives, this assumes even they are supporting him now and about the possiblity of victory in Iraq, which is possible. It is not going to be relizable for years and the full benefits will not be relizable for decade or more and sense it is pretty clear the Bush administaration is more short term planners than long term planners it gives them a chance to look good in the short term. Not to mention the possiblity for the longterm undermining of the Dems seems right up their alley as many here have declared them power hungry fools. I do like how you gave the best supporting Bush post in probably years.
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 15:18
expect maybe the part about legacy with foreign policy conservatives, this assumes even they are supporting him now and about the possiblity of victory in Iraq

I don't intend that at all. With his poll numbers somewhere in the 30s, there is no way there is any consensus support for him among foreign policy conservatives.

What I mean to say is that if he is seen as giving in to Dems (be it for political reasons or whatever) there will be no foreign policy conservatives left who support him.

And really, the term "foreign policy conservative" is a very sloppy on my part. There are certainly conservative foreign policy arguments for pulling out of Iraq.

In my opinion, there are essentially two kinds of people who continue to support Bush: free market/pro business conservatives who appreciate his tax policy while being less concerned with his unchecked discretionary and deficit spending than traditional fiscal conservatives should be and war hawks (especially neocons) who believe that a continued large military presence in Iraq is essential to national security.

Now, of course I don't believe that he has the support of everyone in that latter set. But by giving in to Democrat pressure in Iraq, he is sure to lose those who do support him for that reason.


I do like how you gave the best supporting Bush post in probably years.

I don't think anything I said was in support of Bush. I was just responding to your ideas in the terms they were presented (if Bush is so sure that the Dems are wrong). Really the post was neutral. That established, you might still be right in that as such, it may well be my most supportive post in years. :)
 
88Perm Dude
ID: 837278
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 16:51
The Torture Fax
 
89Perm Dude
ID: 837278
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 16:52
A Failure of Generalship

"First they came for the corporals, and I wasn't a corporal...."
 
90Perm Dude
ID: 837278
Fri, Apr 27, 2007, 16:59
Andrew Sullivan on Yingling's essay
 
91Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Tue, May 01, 2007, 12:53
So sadly accurate...

 
92sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, May 01, 2007, 14:50
Bush readies veto pen for national address

President Bush will veto the war spending measure from Congress on Tuesday evening, the White announced, fulling a vow to reject any spending bill containing a timetable for removing U.S. troops from Iraq.

The president will explain his decision to veto the legislation on network television at 6:10 pm.

The president said Monday he wants to work with Democrats and is "optimistic we can get something done in a positive way."

"I look forward to working with members of both parties to get a bill that doesn't set artificial timetables and doesn't micromanage and gets the money to our troops," he said Monday during an appearance with European Union leaders. "I believe there's a lot of Democrats that understand that we need to get the money to the troops as soon as possible.

Bush has invited Congressional leaders to the White House on Wednesday to discuss a compromise."



As soon as possible shrub, means you sign the bill. Any other action on your part, and it is YOU delying the funding.


Compromise, by definition means that ALL sides give up something. You have no intent of giving up anything, but rather insist that "compromise" means giving you carte blanche;

The compromise bill being worked out would strip out the controversial troop removal language and replace it with a series of benchmarks to measure the progress of the Iraqi government.

The benchmarks would include passing laws related to the sharing of oil revenue and national reconciliation and reducing sectarian violence -- benchmarks that Bush himself has publicly pressed the Iraqis to meet.

However, the big question facing lawmakers and the White House is what happens if those benchmarks aren't met.

Many Democrats and some Republicans support setting out consequences, but the White House fiercely opposes the idea, which Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Sunday would "tie our own hands" and reduce the United States' "flexibility" in Iraq.

A senior Republican lawmaker, working behind the scenes with senators from both parties, has suggested a possible way to bridge that gap -- requiring troops to be withdrawn if the benchmarks aren't met but allowing the president to waive that requirement if he chooses.


Can we say "meaningless"????? IF the benchmarks are not met,
then we withdraw the troops,
unless shrub decides against it.

Anybody care to place odds on shrubs withdrawing the troops when the benchmarks are not met?

Just one more glaring example of our glorious dictator at work.
 
93Perm Dude
ID: 3844717
Tue, May 01, 2007, 14:59
Since the Iraqi government is off for two months, it is hard to say whether benchmarks would have any meaning for some time.

New ad slamming Bush for the veto
 
94Perm Dude
ID: 1443227
Wed, May 02, 2007, 15:06
 
95walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, May 02, 2007, 15:36
May 2, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
The Hail Mary Pass
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


On Thursday there will be a regional conference in Egypt to discuss stabilizing Iraq, and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will represent the U.S. President Bush should go instead and give this speech:

I want to take this opportunity to speak to the Arab and Muslim nations gathered here today and to the world at large. I begin with a simple message: I’m sorry. I’m sorry that I rushed into the invasion of Iraq. I honestly believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. I was wrong, and I now realize that in unilaterally launching the war the way I did, you all feel that I breached a bond of trust between America and the world. Not only did that alienate you from us, it made us less effective in Iraq. We had too few allies and too little legitimacy. I apologize — sincerely.

I’m most sorry, though, because my bungling of the war has prompted all of us to take our eye off the ball. I messed up the treatment so badly that people have forgotten the patient really does have a disease. Now that I’ve apologized, I hope you will stop fixating on me and look closely at what is happening in your backyard: the forces and pathologies that brought us 9/11 are still there and multiplying.

Friends, we are losing in Iraq. But whom are we losing to? Is it to the Iraqi “Vietcong” — the authentic carriers of Iraqi nationalism? No, it is not. We are being defeated by nihilistic Islamist suicide bombers, who are proliferating across the Muslim world. We are losing to people who blow up mosques, markets, hospital emergency wards and girls’ schools. They don’t even tell us their names, let alone offer a future.

Look at the past two weeks: On Thursday, at least nine Iraqi soldiers were found dead after a suicide car bomber rammed a checkpoint. Two suicide car bombers crashed into a Kurdistan Democratic Party office in Zamar. A day earlier, a suicide bomber killed four policemen in Balad Ruz. Two days earlier, nine U.S. soldiers were killed by a pair of suicide attackers driving garbage trucks packed with explosives. A few days earlier, five bomb attacks killed nearly 200 people in Baghdad. On Monday this week, a suicide bomber blew up a funeral in Khalis, killing at least 30.

That’s 12 suicide bombers in a little over a week. And it’s been like that every month. These suicide jihadists are so hard to defeat because they have no desire to build anything. Their only goal is to make sure that America fails in its effort to bring decent, pluralistic, progressive politics to Iraq. They will kill any number of Muslims to ensure that we fail.

Do not delude yourselves that this is only about Iraq. In March, a suicide bomber blew up an Internet cafe in Morocco, and on April 10 four more suicide bombers struck there. On April 11, a pair of suicide bombers, claimed by Al Qaeda, killed 24 people or more in separate attacks in Algiers. In February, a suicide bomber in Quetta, Pakistan, blew up a courtroom, killing the judge and at least 14 other people — the sixth suicide bombing in that country in a month. Last Friday, Saudi police arrested 172 who they said were jihadists who planned to do things like flying airplanes into oil fields. On Saturday, a suicide bomber in Pakistan killed at least 28 people while trying to blow up the interior minister.

You may think that I’m more dangerous than Bin Laden and that a strong America is more dangerous than Al Qaeda. You’re wrong. If we are defeated in Iraq, they’ll come after you. They already are. And if we’re defeated in Iraq, you’ll no longer have to contend with a world of too much American power. You’ll have to contend with a world of too little American power. You will not like it.

Don’t let your anger with me blind you to your own interests. You are holding your breath until I turn blue. But I’m not going to turn blue. You are. I want to get out of Iraq as soon as possible, but I need you Arab leaders to get off the fence. I know that you fear democracy in Iraq, but the alternative is much worse. If the jihadists win, the Arab world will have no future. I need your help in forging a settlement in Iraq and in denouncing this suicide madness from every mosque and minaret every hour of every day — with no qualifications.

And to Europe, China and Russia, I also say: Get off the fence — I can’t stabilize Iraq without your help. I don’t have the resources. I know I was a jerk in stiff-arming you. Believe me, I’m over it. I’m here to listen to what you want me to do. But unless we — the world of order — all pull together now, the forces of disorder are going to have their way, and there is no wall that will protect you.
 
96Perm Dude
ID: 1443227
Wed, May 02, 2007, 15:44
Nice.
 
97walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, May 02, 2007, 15:45
My cynical side says there's just two options here: (1) Congress just sends the same exact bill to shrub over and over again, with ads like Edwards' that says: "Bush is the one who is holding up funds, not us; he wants to continue to spend & fail, to ref a civil war while Iraq's gov't is on hiatus or resigning, at the same time weakenening our security interests here and elsewhere -- all because he is too cowardly to admit that we can do nothing more militarily, and too unskilled to handle the conflict diplomatically;" or (2) Congress just lets Bush do his thing for 20 months, with whatever unconditional dumbass funding he wants, and runs ads saying: "he's the decider, the commander, we tried, this is on him, he's created a dictatorship and we have no hand," and let the republicans and bush's legacy suffer in 2008.

I'd rather congress take option 1, and I don't like a compromise bill cos that'll basically cater to bush and split the Dem party thereby giving more ooomph to Guiliani or McCain in 2008 (ugh). A lose-lose scenario seems to be brewing.

- walk
 
98walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, May 02, 2007, 15:49
What's mind-boggling, PD, is that bush won't even GO to this summit meeting (sending Rice, pluh-eeze!), but he'll make dumbass speech after dumbass speech to some group of builders, or whomever, to bash the other side and pound away at his ridiculous logic ("...either we'll succeed or we won't succeed...").

Bush's Speech, May 2nd

- walk
 
99Perm Dude
ID: 1443227
Wed, May 02, 2007, 15:53
The spin that seems to be getting some media traction that I heard today, is "Republicans, including the President, appear to be ready to sign the Democratic bill so long as the Democrats compromise by removing the timetables."

This, of course, isn't any compromise at all, just more of what I pointed out in #24.

Dems really have to stay on-message here, and work in the facts that the Iraqi government isn't even in session for two months, as well as the fact that the Democratic bill actually provides more money for the troops than the President asked for.
 
100Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, May 02, 2007, 15:57
I expect a compromise with clear benchmarks for success but not timetables.

I also expect ambiguous language regarding just how binding the benchmarks are.
 
101walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, May 02, 2007, 16:10
I expect what MITH expects and expect to vomit in my mouth as a result. It stinks. It's just the same ol. So, I think the Dems should give Bush his bill and then proceed to begin impeachment hearings against him and Cheney.

I think the surge was carefully thought out by Rove and all to be just enough of a "change" to require 20 months to assess its effectiveness. It's not enough to make a significant difference, but enough to say that bush has done "something." Of course, it's not what the voters had in mind last November, but that little detail is not important to a guy who believes god has told him what he knows best.

- walk
 
103Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, May 02, 2007, 16:33
I'm not so sure I'd call it a loss for Dems.

IMO ambiguous language re the rigidity of the benchmarks is probably necessary to prevent a Bush veto and pass the thing.

As we get closer to the '08 elections and benchmarks continue to go unmet, more Republicans will jump ship. I suspect that unless we see a turnaround in Iraq (unlikely but not impossible imo), there will be enough votes to override a veto on another bill before summer of '08 and Congress will be able to force a pullout then.
 
104walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, May 02, 2007, 16:37
Kinda hope so, MITH, but it's a shame that more bad management has to occur before we can have a true change in strategy (e.g. diplomacy, troop pull-out, help from other countries, etc.). It feels very marginal, even if Congress can override a subsequent veto.

- walk
 
105Perm Dude
ID: 1443227
Wed, May 02, 2007, 16:42
Dems are riding high because people expect them to get us out of Iraq. If that fails to happen, or it appears that Dems wimp out, that support will be gone likethat.

Dems need to have a club, not a promise.
 
106Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, May 02, 2007, 16:55
Yeah that's why I imagine language in the settlement will be ambiguous.

You know the drill, pundits on each side will criticize their owm for wimping out while both parties will claim victory for sticking to their guns.

Until the issue is forced by the looming elections. Unless of course things somehow improve in Iraq before then, which would only be a good thing and (I have to imagine) would likely be seen as an escape hatch for the President, anyway.
 
107sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, May 04, 2007, 19:10
Pentagon says troops mental health care system inadequate to the job
 
108Doug
ID: 422281412
Fri, May 04, 2007, 23:29
Re: 100, I tend to agree... although I read somewhere today the Dems were expected to only pass 2 additional months of funding at this time, and essentially "fence off" funding beyond that for the time being. They revisit the issue in a couple months, and depending how things are going (if benchmarks are being met, etc.) they could continue to fully fund, or start "tightening the collar" accordingly (and presumably survive politically, as any slowing of the spigot would essentially be tied to lack of progress in Iraq). I've got mixed feelings about that, but I thought it was an interesting idea at least.

Re: 107... another very sad consequence of our engagement... it's not just the deaths and physical casualties that we suffer, but the mental casualties as well. I think the time has come that we need to support the troops, on the one hand by providing more funding for these types of services, and on the other hand by getting our troops out of this square-peg round-hold situation as soon as "reasonably" possible. I think everyone agrees on that latter point in theory, it's just a question of how one interprets the term "reasonably" as it pertains to how/when we disengage.
 
109walk
ID: 259313119
Mon, May 07, 2007, 09:25
Very interesting...
***************************************

May 7, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
In Iraq, the Play Was the Thing
By HUSSAIN ABDUL-HUSSAIN
Washington


IN 1982, our second-grade teacher at Baghdad’s Mansour school made the following announcement: “The year-end play is about our war with the Persian enemy. The top 20 students in class will play Iraqis; the bottom 20 will play Persians.”

This was at the height of the Iran-Iraq war, and during our first rehearsal the students assigned to play Persians — that is, Iranians — broke out in tears. Although many of the children were, like me, from Shiite families, they insisted that they were Iraqis first, that they loved their Sunni-led country and did not want to play the role of the enemy.

After some negotiations, the girls were spared and only the boys from the lower half were selected to play the roles of the “soldiers of Khomeini the hypocrite.” Their script was scrapped, and instead they were told simply to run across stage as the rest of us, playing the role of the Iraqi Army, mowed them down in battle.

But the play did not end when the curtain fell. Those of us from the Iraqi cast took to bragging and, in the tradition of schoolchildren everywhere, bullying the “Persians.” With tears in their eyes, they repeatedly had to beg the teacher to make us stop.

Now, a quarter of a century later, I called one of my classmates, Ayad, a Shiite who still lives in Iraq. I reminded him of the play, and of how he and I, the top two students in the class, got to play the roles of the Iraqi generals who would win the war against the Iranians. “It was the good old days,” he told me.

Ayad owns a hotel in the southern city of Karbala, home to two of Shiism’s most important shrines. His wife and two daughters wear veils. He believes that the violence in Iraq is a Sunni and American conspiracy against Shiites, and he argues that Iran is the best ally of Iraqi Shiites.

Ayad has two elder brothers. One was conscripted during the Iran-Iraq war and received medals for his courageous performance in battle. The other ran away when he was drafted and ended up living as a refugee in Iran. However, he was treated poorly there, living in poverty and under permanent suspicion, so after some years he fled to Beirut. After the Americans ousted Saddam Hussein, he returned to Iraq, and now works at Ayad’s hotel.

“We think America did a great thing by toppling Saddam,” Ayad told me, speaking for himself and his family. “But now they should hand us the country and leave.”

I asked him whether he fears that an American withdrawal might allow the Sunni insurgents to strike harder in Shiite areas. “We outnumber them,” he said. “And with the support of our Iranian brothers, we can take the Sunnis.”

“And then what?” I replied.

“Then the Shiites will rule Iraq.”

Ayad believes that there is no problem in establishing an Islamic government in Baghdad styled after that of the Iranian Republic. The Sunnis, he said, have “oppressed us since the days of the Prophet, and now it is our chance to hit back and rule.”

According to Ayad, a Shiite takeover in Iraq would set a good model for the Shiites of Lebanon, where they number about a third of the population, and Bahrain, where they are a majority.

“Perhaps the Shiite minority in Saudi Arabia will act too, rid themselves of the Sunni oppression against them, and rule or at least separate themselves from Riyadh and create their own state,” my friend argued.

It is exactly this possibility that has made the Sunni Arab regimes fear a Shiite regional revolt and moved some to support the Sunni insurgency in Iraq or at least to voice their resentment of the Iraqi Shiite government, which is seen as being biased against Iraqi Sunnis. “But we are Iraqis,” I told Ayad. “We are Arabs. We have our cultural differences with the Persians. We don’t even speak the same language.”

Ayad insisted otherwise: “When we fought the Persians during the 1980s, we were wrong. We’re Shiites before being Iraqis. Sunnis invented national identity to rule us.”

At this point, I understood that it was pointless to argue further. When the Baathist regime collapsed, I initially felt that there was a good chance for national unity, that Sunnis and Shiites would band together in the absence of the dictator who had played them against each other. Talking to Ayad, I realized how wrong I had been.

To change the subject, I asked Ayad about his business. He told me he had just erected flags on top of the entrance to his hotel. He chose the flags of Iraq, Iran, Lebanon and Bahrain. When I asked why he chose the flags of these four nations, he said: “These are the countries where Shiites come from to do their pilgrimage in Karbala,” he said. “It is good for business.”

Hussain Abdul-Hussain, a media analyst, is a former reporter for The Daily Star of Lebanon.
 
110Pancho Villa
ID: 42231410
Mon, May 07, 2007, 10:33
The most positive development in Iraq is the Sunni tribes turning on foreign jihadists in Anbar. Here is a fairly in-depth article examining the phenomenon by Pepe Escobar.

Sheikh Abdul Satter Abu Risha is the leader of the Anbar Sovereignty Council, a powerful coalition of Anbar tribes, including at least 200 sheikhs, that is fighting the Salafi jihadis of al-Qaeda in Iraq/the Islamic
Emirate of Iraq in the volatile province........

Abu Risha swore that the Iraqi Army and US forces now control Ramadi. Fallujah is a very different story - according to Iraqi journalists who have been to the front line. They say the outskirts of west Baghdad are safe up to Abu Ghraib, but not Fallujah, which has been an Islamic State of Iraq stronghold. According to the sheikh, al-Qaeda in Iraq is particularly active in al-Rahwa (a big city near the Syrian border), Tilal Himrin (a village also near Syria), the village of Elbu Baly, and the big city of Balad.


In retrospect, it now looks like the seige of Fallujah in October/November 2004 was the single most blunder, militarily, in this conflict. The only accomplishment appears to be an almost complete polarization of the local population against the US and the central Iraqi government and fertile recruiting for the jihadists. How else to explain the continuing rebellion in Fallujah as opposed to the positive developments in Ramadi, a larger city and the provincial capital of Anbar?

 
111Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, May 09, 2007, 17:37
Bush would veto Democrats' new Iraq bill

seems like Bush will only except war funding in a "my way or the highway" sort of way.

very clearly governing in an obstructionist sort of way, and refusing to compromise. hopefully, if Republicans again fall lock, stock, and goose step in line with him, voters will remember this.

Bush is now obviously the one refusing to fund the troops.
 
112katietx
ID: 11430613
Wed, May 09, 2007, 17:48
I believe there are a few of the Republicans on the hill that are very interested in the surge report due in the September. That may well set the stage for a beginning withdrawl if they are not happy with the report findings.
 
113walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, May 10, 2007, 08:53
Just as katie says, here's the republicans to which she refers:

Moderate Repubs Show Concerns to Bush
 
114walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, May 10, 2007, 10:24
So, I'm reading all of these editorials and opinion pieces from both the repubs and dems and I am really not sure what to conclude anymore. My view is that Iraq is basically an occupation a civil war, with terrorist acts going on as well. Al Quaida is using it as a way to attack the U.S. and disrupt the country's efforts to stabilize and could seemingly take advantage of our departure by having a new Afghanistan in which to more freely and easily train terrorists and launch more attacks.

If we stay, it's seemingly endless, although some gains are being made with Sunni tribes now fighting against Sunni Al Quaida and fewer gun battles in lieu of more car bombs and other bombings.

Even with the recent surge, and the anticipated 35k more troops, do we have have the forces and the Iraqi forces to ever stabilize Iraq?

Does the Iraq government have the inclination and will and power and ambition to either create a single unifying government or a 3-region federal republic, either way resulting in a stable, reasonably equitable operating government?

Do the neighboring countries care enough to send help, both in terms of $ and manpower to stabilize Iraq?

Do we have the talent in our governement's Administration to pus the right buttons regarding diplomacy and negotiation within and beyond Iraq to create an effective operating government? (this one I think is a clear "no," as Cheney/Bush are just not skilled in finesse and compromise and are seemingly not even interested in it).

Does Iraq and Bush/Cheney have the time sort all of this out now that the majority of the country is against the "war," for having emergency funding within a set of timetables, and against Bush/Cheney?

Will a departure from Iraq do more harm that good for Iraq in the region? Will it result in a situation like what happened in Vietnam when we left? Will Iraq become another Iran in terms of Shiite rule, and give Iran an undue balance of power in the middle east? (probably the #1 reason why we are going to stay there with Bush/Cheney, alongside the "we can't be perceived as having started and lost a war" reason).

I feel some of these questions are more obviously answered than others, but also just don't know what the consequences are anymore...I do feel like Iraq will fall apart if we leave, but that maybe Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Egypt etc will then all pull together to help out cos if Iraq falls apart, becomes a very viable home of Al Quaida, I think that'd hur their neighboring interests (oil, security, etc.) big-time.

The peace side of me says I want this to end, but I don't know how to end it without it getting a lot worse...maybe that just has to be.

- walk
 
115Pancho Villa
ID: 42231410
Thu, May 10, 2007, 12:17
if Iraq falls apart, becomes a very viable home of Al Quaida,

Al Qaeda has become a generic term, but for arguements sake, let's use it for those Iraqis and foreign jihadists who are committed to its ideology, even though there really is no centralized brain trust or military operational structure.

In order for Iraq to become a viable home for Al Qaeda, they would need to ally with some elements of the power structure in Iraq, both politically and militarily. The power structure breaks down like this:

Politically - The DAWA and SCIRI parties are the dominant Shiite parties and are virulently opposed to the Sunni-based ideology of Al Qaeda. The PUK and DKP, the two powerful Kurdish political parties, have formed a union whose interests are almost purely Kurdish, and also virulently opposed to an Al Qaeda presence in Iraq.
The Sunni political parties are really brand new entities, since the Baath Party was their only political structure prior to the war. While the Iraqi Islamic Party is the largest, it is hard to tell just how many Sunnis they represent. Additionally, their sympathy for Al Qaeda and their methods, likely high after the Fallujah seige, appears to be waning significantly, and would likely wane even more if Shia death squads and aggresive US tactics against Sunnis are curtailed.

Militarily - The national Iraqi Army is segregated along sectarian lines and heavily infiltrated with Shia and Kurdish militia. Recent developments in Anbar have allowed for Sunni sheiks to develop their own, more regional security forces, that are actively fighting Al Qaeda(see my post #110). Al Qaeda, in response, has moved their base of operations to Diyala province, which is a mixed province heavily populated with Al Qaeda sympathizers. Yet, it seems doubtful that Al Qaeda could do anything more than create sectarian tensions through terrorist acts, as opposed to setting up any type of real power structure in a military sense.

Other areas where Al Qaeda could continue or escalate are Mosul and Kirkuk. Kirkuk has become a fertile breeding ground for Al Qaeda sympathizers because of the impending annexation of the city to Kurdistan, an issue from which the Kurds will not back down. However, if the US were to leave, creating a power vacuum, I would lay my chips on the Peshmerga to claim military dominance over any type of Al Qaeda presence, possibly even leading to a genocide of Arabs. Doubtful that Turkey would follow through on threats to intervene.

Al Qaeda has no miliatry allies within the Shia militias of the Mahdi Army and Badr Brigade. Combined with the Peshmerga, these militias probably are stronger militarily than the entire national army, which, again, is heavily infiltrated by all three.

So, Al Qaeda has neither the political nor the military structure to become a "very viable home for Al Qaeda." To paraphrase the administration, their only allies appear to be a few deadenders, with no widespread support either politically or militarily. But it doesn't take widespread support to drive a car bomb into a market.
 
116walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, May 10, 2007, 12:34
Good to read, PV...I have been educated, and also scared by some reading I have done. I guess I would restate the alleged "concern" that Iraq would be a viable breeding/training ground for terrorists, of any affiliation, and I do not know if this is just fear, propaganda or reality. And I do not know the potential harm they could cause, outside of continual murder within Iraq -- which would potentially not be a top priority if Americans were not there as an occupying force.

- walk
 
117Perm Dude
ID: 28410118
Fri, May 11, 2007, 23:58
Petraeus draws a bright line.

This is exactly what those of us who are against torture have been hoping for--a military man coming out against the Administrations torture policies while still in uniform (and therefore in a position to make it count).
 
119sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, May 12, 2007, 17:07
Reitred Air Force Gen Montano on how the Iraqi war is draining NG resources

and making it more difficult for them to do their stateside missions of disaster relief.
 
120walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, May 16, 2007, 14:32
May 16, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Failing by Example
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


If you want to know why we are losing in Iraq, go back and read this story that ran on the front page of The Times on Saturday. It began like this:

“Two years ago, Robin C. Ashton, a seasoned criminal prosecutor at the Department of Justice, learned from her boss that a promised promotion was no longer hers. ‘You have a Monica problem,’ Ms. Ashton was told. Referring to Monica M. Goodling, a 31-year-old, relatively inexperienced lawyer who had only recently arrived in the office, the boss added, ‘She believes you’re a Democrat and doesn’t feel you can be trusted.’ Ms. Ashton’s ouster — she left for another Justice Department post two weeks later — was a critical early step in a plan that would later culminate in the ouster of nine United States attorneys last year.

“Ms. Goodling would soon be quizzing applicants for civil service jobs at Justice Department headquarters with questions that several United States attorneys said were inappropriate, like who was their favorite president and Supreme Court justice. One department official said an applicant was even asked, ‘Have you ever cheated on your wife?’ Ms. Goodling also moved to block the hiring of prosecutors with résumés that suggested they might be Democrats, even though they were seeking posts that were supposed to be nonpartisan.”

What does this have to do with Iraq? A lot. One benchmark the Bush team has been urging the Iraqi government to meet is to rescind its broad “de-Baathification” program — the wholesale purging of Baathists after the fall of Saddam — which has alienated many Sunnis and hampered national reconciliation.

But while the Bush team has been lecturing the Iraqi Shiites to limit de-Baathification in Baghdad, it was carrying out its own de-Democratization in the Justice Department in Washington. We would feel that we had failed in Iraq if we read that Sunnis were being purged from Iraq’s Ministry of Justice by Shiite hard-liners loyal to Moktada al-Sadr — but the moral equivalent of that is exactly what the Bush administration was doing here. What kind of example does that set for Iraqis?

And this wasn’t only a Washington problem. Read Rajiv Chandrasekaran’s outstanding “Imperial Life in the Emerald City,” which details the extent to which Americans recruited to work for the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad were chosen, at times, for their loyalty toward Republicanism rather than expertise on Islamism. “Two C.P.A. staffers said that they were asked if they supported Roe v. Wade and if they had voted for George W. Bush,” he wrote.

But this degree of partisanship — loyalty over competence — was destructive in a much bigger way. It also deprived the Bush team of the support it needed when things in Iraq didn’t turn out to be as easy as it expected.

Only a united America could have the patience and fortitude to heal a divided Iraq — and we simply don’t have that today. Why? Because George Bush and Dick Cheney asked everyone to check their politics at the door when it came to Iraq, because victory there was so important — everyone but themselves. They argued that the war in Iraq was the central front of the central struggle of our age — an unusual war, a war against terrorism and the pathologies that produce it — but then they indulged in the most rancid politics as usual at home.

They actually thought they could unite Iraq, while dividing America.

Whenever Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney had a choice between seeking political advantage at home or acting in a bipartisan fashion to buy more unity, time and space to do all the heavy lifting needed in Iraq, they opted for political advantage.

When Franklin Roosevelt fought World War II, he made a conservative Republican, Henry Stimson, his secretary of war and did all he could to hold the country together. The Bush- Cheney team, by contrast, summoned us to D-Day and then treated it like it was just another political wedge issue, whenever it suited them.

It has not worked. As Leon Wieseltier, literary editor of The New Republic, put it: “You cannot govern like Winston Churchill some of the time and like Grover Norquist most of the time.”

Democrats need to be careful, though, that they don’t let their rage with the hypocrisy of Mr. Bush make them totally crazy, and blind them to the fact that they — we — still need a credible plan to deal with the very real threat to open societies posed by Islamist terrorism. But I understand that rage. After all, who can ask more soldiers to sacrifice their lives in Iraq for an administration that wouldn’t even sacrifice its politics?
 
121Perm Dude
ID: 48432167
Wed, May 16, 2007, 15:01
Great piece, and analogy.

While they might have pulled it off if it turned out their solution worked, the deliberate injection of cynicism back into the process doomed their efforts anyway, IMO. A huge, wasted opportunity for Bush, who had the perfect storm to make changes.
 
122sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, May 17, 2007, 12:22
The real cost of Iraq

This tragedy, is the direct result of too few troops, spending too long a time in a combat environment and suffering too many "attrition" losses.

This entire debacle, has so weakened our national defense capability, that words to adequately describe it simply dont exist.
 
123boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, May 17, 2007, 13:24
Only a united America could have the patience and fortitude to heal a divided Iraq — and we simply don’t have that today.

When exactly did we have a united america? If my memory serves me right the country was pretty divide after W "stole" the election in 2000. yes the country came together after 9/11 but did it really? With out a clear enemy that could be clearly defeated togetherness was just an illusion. we allways talk about Bush's missed opputunity but was it really? The country was allready dividing it self allong pollitical boundaries if anything Bush has unified the countries in ways that 9/11 never could of. he has given the country an enemy, one that can be defeated: Himself.
 
124walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, May 17, 2007, 16:52
True, boikin, but Bush as president has/had the opportunity to try and bring the country together, and he even said he'd do as much ("I am not a divider.") Whether he started the intense partisanship or not, he and Cheney certainly exacerbated it, in many ways.

- walk
 
125Perm Dude
ID: 224551719
Thu, May 17, 2007, 23:10
I don't think there is any question that this Administration injected partisanship into the post-9/11 American political scene. Americans were clearly behind the government after 9/11, and this carried on through the invasion of Afghanistan.

It was only when the ramp-up to the Iraqi War began that the gloves came off. And it became clear he wasn't trying very hard to get bin Laden.

Since then it has been a slow awakening by Americans while the Administration (and, with some notable exceptions, the kiss-ass Republicans in Congress) tries to clamp down on dissent by playing (over and over) the unity card that they threw away years ago.

The American people are understandably fearful about another attack like the one we sustained on Sept. 11, 2001. But it is the duty of the commander in chief to lead the country away from the grip of fear, not into its grasp.
 
126Perm Dude
ID: 2447187
Fri, May 18, 2007, 12:56
All right, now we're really in the twilight zone:

Dems offer to strip out domestic spending and make timetables waivable by Bush, but the White House still rejects it.

Bush is a petulant child.
 
127boikin
ID: 59831214
Fri, May 18, 2007, 13:11
Yes the public was behind the president after 9/11 and into the invasion Afghanistan, but i think the adminsitration began to relize that they need a clear cut victory over the terrorist to issure this support and Afghanistan was not going to give it to them. Afghanistan was in many ways a trap they had to go in and get the taliban but at the same time they had seen what had happened to the russians there, public support would have began to wane. To avoid this the idea invasion of iraq probably came up, helped allong by ideas for invasion allready circulating. get a clear victory, president is a hero....things don't worked out as plan, so what do you do consoludate power, remove those who oppose you...straight out of Roman Empire 101.

I am probably giving the admistration too much credit here to think they actually planned things out this well, but the piont is that dispite what everyone seems to think the 9/11 unity was a short lived event, if you go back and look at Bush popularity ratings they peaked with the invasion of Afghanistan and steadly declined till invasion of iraq. now go and look at some the other events happening at this time with the enron and worldcom collapse the country was allready begging to divide again. Yes more could have probably been done with the support from the events of 9/11 what and to what affect they would have on country are unclear.
 
128Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Fri, May 18, 2007, 13:33
i think the adminsitration began to relize that they need a clear cut victory over the terrorist to issure this support and Afghanistan was not going to give it to them.

You're saying that the administration largely abandoned the effort in Afghanistan (where the terrorists and their enablers were) and invaded Iraq in order to garner public support?

at the same time they had seen what had happened to the russians there, public support would have began to wane.

? We were fighting alongside Afghanis against their Taliban oppressors. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan to support a Marxist coup that had sent the nation into civil war. The situations aren't close at all.
 
129walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, May 18, 2007, 13:37
PD, it's raw personal politics on Bush's side right now. If the spending were to include even a waivable timeline, if and when Bush would waive the alleged "surrender date," it would be totally transparent that Bush alone was continuing the occupation. The optics are awful for the white house cos they know that the surge is insufficient to remedy the situation in Iraq, and they have to play a stall game to keep it all going as-is until the next President is elected. Then, they can let the next dude "surrender." Not on his watch. No way, no how. And the no how has to also preclude the obvious appearance that he alone is continuing the war. Right now, he can point to others in Congress (republicans in both the house and senate), but once a bill like the one the Dems are negotiating with him is signed, all of the accountability falls to him. Can't have that.

Very cynical, I know, but this is what I think is going on. Lame chess match with our soldiers and budget as the pawns, not to mention the Iraqi civilians.

Diplomacy anyone?
- walk
 
130boikin
ID: 59831214
Fri, May 18, 2007, 14:14
? We were fighting alongside Afghanis against their Taliban oppressors. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan to support a Marxist coup that had sent the nation into civil war. The situations aren't close at all.

the russians where fighting allong side there afghani allis too. i think the parallels are not that far, close enought to see what the final results would be a month or two in. yes we had more afghani support than the russians did. they wanted a marxist coup, we wanted a democratic coup, either way it does nothing for the afghanis who want neighter. Both governments tried/trying to force a governemnt of their choice on them.

You're saying that the administration largely abandoned the effort in Afghanistan (where the terrorists and their enablers were) and invaded Iraq in order to garner public support?

i think so to some extent, i really do think Bush thought he could make Iraq a better place but that does no mean that this was not oppurtunity to kill two birds with one stone.
 
131Perm Dude
ID: 2447187
Fri, May 18, 2007, 14:17
I think the Administration thought they could pull them both off. The Afghanistan effort was largely abandoned because the Iraqi War (due to no-post invasion planning) went off the wheels and resources and attention needed to be pulled out.

And Bush's inability to demonstration flexibility during the fog of war made it impossible to get back on track.
 
132Perm Dude
ID: 2447187
Fri, May 18, 2007, 14:30
Nailing Bush to the wall.
 
133Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Fri, May 18, 2007, 14:56
the russians where fighting allong side there afghani allis too. i think the parallels are not that far, close enought to see what the final results would be a month or two in.

You do realize we are still there directing the fight against the Taliban, right? We haven't pulled out. The Taliban has been resurgent in recent years but this is limited primarily to rural areas in the north. There is little support for them among the bulk of Afghanis.

In 1979, USSR took sides in a full scale civil war following a marxist military coup. The parallel is very weak.

this was not oppurtunity to kill two birds with one stone.

I really think your idea that Iraq was attacked in order to garner public support for the administration is backwards: public support was garnered in order to facilitate the invasion of Iraq, not the other way around. If they were so sure Iraq was an easy PR winner in America, they wouldn't have had to falsely play up the lie that Saddam was some great threat that superceded the priority of finding OBL and chasing down the remnants of al Qaeda.
 
134Mötley Crüe
Dude
ID: 439372011
Sun, May 20, 2007, 18:10
If they were so sure Iraq was an easy PR winner in America

Remember, though, as PD pointed out, due to no-post invasion planning the conflict in Iraq has become a much more difficult and long-lasting one than was anticipated. They never expected it to take this long, nor be this expensive. Propaganda was rife from 'Mission Accomplished' on.

Iraq was to be the much-hailed and decisive victory of American Democracy over the flailing beast portrayed by Secularist Despotism. Saddam and Sons go down handily, Bush lands on an aircraft carrier, and our economy cranks out a new era of prosperity. The Bush Administration was clearly too blinded by certainty and confidence to recognize that there'd be more to it than that. From such a perspective, invading Iraq looked like a big, big winner, undoubtedly.
 
135Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Mon, May 21, 2007, 07:02
Again, the comparison is weak. Afghanistan was a country still devastated by decades of war in 2001. The was liuttle infrastructure to destroy. I could be wrong, but I believe yjay for the most part, any rebuilding done and directed by the US has led to improvements on the way life for Afghanis. By comparison, Iraq, even if it was crumbling at the time, was still a functioning industrialized nation before the bombing.

Further and more to your point, I think, the war in Afghanistan did not leave a power vacume there like the war in Iraq did. Afghanistan does not face the same issues of hostile religious factions vying for power, with the US trying to find a way to force them to share it. Afghanis as a whole are clearly much more unified than Iraqis.
 
136Boxman
ID: 251142612
Mon, May 21, 2007, 13:47
Iraq was to be the much-hailed and decisive victory of American Democracy over the flailing beast portrayed by Secularist Despotism. Saddam and Sons go down handily, Bush lands on an aircraft carrier, and our economy cranks out a new era of prosperity.

You left out one thing. Iraq probably would have been used (and could still be one day) as a staging ground for a campaign against Iran.

Between the threats against Israel and us, the conversion of oil from a dollar based price to a euro price, and the nuclear issue, Iran was to be next if Iraq went even 1/2 as good as Afghanistan did.
 
137boikin
ID: 59831214
Mon, May 21, 2007, 16:42
Yes the public was behind the president after 9/11 and into the invasion Afghanistan, but i think the adminsitration began to relize that they need a clear cut victory over the terrorist to issure this support and Afghanistan was not going to give it to them. Afghanistan was in many ways a trap they had to go in and get the taliban but at the same time they had seen what had happened to the russians there, public support would have began to wane.

i just want to clearify partly what i was saying here, i was not saying that we were/are going to succeed in afghanistan but that we would not be able to get clear cut victory, it was becoming clear that taliban was not going to be easily destroyed and even if the people were more with us than the Russians, the fact was the georgraphy and the nature of afghanistan and there neighbors the pakistan it was going to be nearly impossible for to have a clear cut victory atleast in any near future.

I really think your idea that Iraq was attacked in order to garner public support for the administration is backwards: public support was garnered in order to facilitate the invasion of Iraq, not the other way around. If they were so sure Iraq was an easy PR winner in America, they wouldn't have had to falsely play up the lie that Saddam was some great threat that superceded the priority of finding OBL and chasing down the remnants of al Qaeda.

it is funny how a victory makes people forget how they got there. nobody says hey the spanish amecian war was a bad thing becuase we accidently blow up our own ship and blamed the spanish, nobody ever says going to europe in WW1 was a bad idea becuase the germans sank the lusitania which was full of armanments. trumping up reasons to go War are as old as time, they only become important when you lose.
 
138Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Mon, May 21, 2007, 16:50
it was becoming clear that taliban was not going to be easily destroyed and even if the people were more with us than the Russians, the fact was the georgraphy and the nature of afghanistan and there neighbors the pakistan it was going to be nearly impossible for to have a clear cut victory atleast in any near future.

I strongly disagree with this. If believe that if we'd kept our resources focused in Afghanistan, the Taliban would have never had a chance to become resurgent. Sure, they'd have never been fully eradicated, but we sure did seem to have them totally marginalized before we moved on to Iraq. What allowed them to return was teh removal of most of our forces.

I don't understand what your last paragraph has to do with points you've previously made, or how it responds to me in the context of this discussion.
 
139boikin
ID: 59831214
Mon, May 21, 2007, 17:29
I don't understand what your last paragraph has to do with points you've previously made, or how it responds to me in the context of this discussion.

In the first part I was just tyring to clearify what i was saying and that i do not believe that we would have been able to get a nice clear cut victory in Afghanistan. Secondly i would ask you how many troops should we have kept there? as it appears they are all time highs right now and things do not appear to be getting better there.

the second part was to illustrate that unpopular wars can become popular ones if you win and questionable reasons for going to war can also become less important if you succeed.
 
140Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, May 22, 2007, 11:57
I gues in the last paragraph of 137 you were trying to support your arguments by showing that the inverse is also true (just as the support from early success can be lost, early failure can be remidied by turning the effort around). Fair enough, I suppose.

According to this article, Gates has increased troop levels in Afghanistan, in preparation for a new offensive. I wasn't aware of this and am happy to hear it, as I've believed for years now that more attention and resources should be dedicated to Afghanistan.
 
141walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Tue, May 22, 2007, 14:03
May 22, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Give Them a Break
By MAX BOOT


TALKING heads and lawmakers in Washington have a new reason to be exercised about the situation in Iraq — as if any were needed. They’re in an uproar that the Iraqi Parliament, the Council of Representatives, is planning to take a two-month recess starting on July 1. This is being represented as evidence that the Iraqis would prefer to go off to the seashore rather than try to save their country.

“If they go off on vacation for two months while our troops fight — that would be the outrage of outrages,” said Representative Chris Shays, Republican of Connecticut, echoing the views of many, including Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Bob Gates, who have both urged the Iraqis to skip or shorten their break.

It’s certainly a bad idea for the Parliament to take such a long recess — but mainly for symbolic reasons. In practical terms, it’s much less important how long the Parliament is in session than how much agreement leaders of major factions can reach.

In Iraq, as in the United States, the serious work of legislating does not take place on the floor of Parliament or in committee meetings. It takes place behind the scenes. In the case of Iraq, it’s often late at night, over numerous cups of chai, that deals are hatched and bargains concluded.

The work in those smoke-filled rooms — and in Iraq, unlike in modern America, the cliché is still applicable because everyone still puffs away — can go on whether Parliament is formally in session or not, as long as the major Iraqi leaders agree to remain in the Green Zone. If a deal is concluded, it’s possible to call Parliament back into session to ratify it. If no deal is concluded it doesn’t make any difference whether Parliament is in session or not.

The United States needs to keep pressing for important bills — especially laws on sharing oil revenue, de-Baathification and provincial elections — to be passed as part of a broader reconciliation process. The failure of Iraqi politicians to make more progress is frustrating.

But we shouldn’t kid ourselves that even in the unlikely event that all these bills are approved by September, they will mark a turning point in the war. At best they will give Gen. David H. Petraeus and President Bush some signs of progress they can point to in arguing for more patience from the American public to give the “surge” a chance to work.

The top priority at the moment is for Iraqi and American troops to bring Baghdad under control. Absent a greater degree of security, any deals reached in Parliament wouldn’t be worth the paper they’re printed on, because the factions would not trust one another to carry them out and they would still feel compelled to settle their differences at gunpoint. First you have to win the war, or at least start to win it. Then come the negotiations. Not the other way around.

But impatient Americans are demanding results even before the surge is completed (the fifth extra brigade combat team won’t arrive until June) — and while Congressional leaders are doing their utmost to pull our troops out. What incentive do Iraqis have to compromise with mortal enemies if they think United States forces are about to depart and a major civil war is about to erupt?

Iraqi politicians will make serious concessions only if they feel a reasonable degree of assurance that the rule of law, not the rule of bomb-makers and throat-slitters, will prevail. Establishing those conditions is primarily a job for the American and Iraqi security forces, who can go about their business whether the Council of Representatives is meeting or not. The most immediate challenge for the government of Iraq is to provide the kind of support that its troops in the field need — everything from bullets to food to pay, all areas where the government has been deficient.

Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki’s government also desperately needs to spend more of its budget, and especially to send more money to Anbar Province and other Sunni areas to convince the Sunnis that the Shiites who are in control in Baghdad are serious about sharing the wealth. That will be a more significant short-term indicator of the government’s good will than the ability of the Council of Representatives to pass legislation that may or may not be carried out.

This is not meant to be an excuse for Iraqi politicians, who should be doing more to end the violence ripping their country apart. But our politicians, who are reduced to quivering piles of Jell-O by the threat of falling opinion polls, aren’t in the best position to point fingers at Iraqi politicians who perform their duties under constant threat of death.

It is also mildly bizarre to see our lawmakers castigate the Iraqis for taking a summer recess when they themselves have just taken a break (the “spring district work period”), which occurred even as work on a bill to provide money for our troops went uncompleted. And that’s not the end of it. They are also preparing to take another siesta in August (the “summer district work period”).

Some have argued that it’s far more important for the Iraqis to meet, because they’re in the middle of a war. But lest we forget, there are American men and women fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq right now. We’re in the middle of a war, too.

Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, is the author of “War Made New: Technology, Warfare and the Course of History, 1500 to Today.”
 
142Perm Dude
ID: 10414228
Tue, May 22, 2007, 14:23
It is also mildly bizarre to see our lawmakers castigate the Iraqis for taking a summer recess when they themselves have just taken a break

This is just a very strange argument to make. Americans here in the US aren't dying because of the inability of our government to lead. Iraqis are dying by the thousands because they haven't found a way to govern on their own.
 
143walk
ID: 31462214
Tue, May 22, 2007, 15:08
Agreed, PD. I think the better point is that as long as these Iraqi pols are still in the Green Zone and making deals after hours and could convene an emergency session if they broker a deal, then it's really a moot point that they go on recess. However, I don't know if this really happens, and I bet neither does Mr. Boot.

- walk
 
144Perm Dude
ID: 10414228
Tue, May 22, 2007, 17:04
Enough to make you cry about 2/3 of the way through. But should be required viewing, no matter what your stand is on the war:

 
145sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, May 23, 2007, 09:03
great find PD.
 
146walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Wed, May 23, 2007, 10:32
Wow.
 
147sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, May 29, 2007, 18:08
caption beneath a video link on MSNBC.com:

May 29: Published reports indicate U.S. military officials doubt that the Iraqi government will be able to meet political goals, and may need to redefine what success in Iraq means. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reports from the Pentagon

Why not redefine "victory"? This admins leadership, has redefined the Constitution, the GC, the term "Patriot" and/or the term "terrorist", etc etc etc.
 
148Perm Dude
ID: 42426309
Wed, May 30, 2007, 22:59
Bush sees US in Iraq similar to South Korean model

50 + years, people. I think Republicans running for national office in 2008 would be awfully interested in knowing if Bush ever has plans to have US troops leave Iraq.
 
149bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Thu, May 31, 2007, 00:42
He said U.S. bases in Iraq would not necessarily be permanent because they would be there at the invitation of the host government and "the person who has done the invitation has the right to withdraw the invitation."

And, if said person in charge wants the US out, is he an enemy, insurgent lover, or just a fanatical Islamist?
 
150sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Thu, May 31, 2007, 09:26
WHAT host government????????????????
 
151Toral
ID: 52621719
Thu, May 31, 2007, 11:37
David Broder thinks the Republicans are getting ready to move.
 
152sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, May 31, 2007, 11:49
Good article and I have to think he's right. My problem is, it is so blatantly political. Why our elected representatives cannot bring themselves to do the "right thing", without waiting for an upcoming national election to force their hands, is a gddmn shame. IOW, how many 19-25 yr old lives could be saved, if they would act NOW vs waiting on October?
 
153walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:59
Iraqi PM doesn't trust his military, fears coup
 
154walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 13:43
Generals say Baghdad Surge Currently Behind Goals
 
155walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Jun 07, 2007, 13:50
June 7, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Defeat’s Killing Fields
By PETER W. RODMAN and WILLIAM SHAWCROSS


SOME opponents of the Iraq war are toying with the idea of American defeat. A number of them are simply predicting it, while others advocate measures that would make it more likely. Lending intellectual respectability to all this is an argument that takes a strange comfort from the outcome of the Vietnam War. The defeat of the American enterprise in Indochina, it is said, turned out not to be as bad as expected. The United States recovered, and no lasting price was paid.

We beg to differ. Many years ago, the two of us clashed sharply over the wisdom and morality of American policy in Indochina, especially in Cambodia. One of us (Mr. Shawcross) published a book, “Sideshow,” that bitterly criticized Nixon administration policy. The other (Mr. Rodman), a longtime associate of Henry Kissinger, issued a rebuttal in The American Spectator, defending American policy. Decades later, we have not changed our views. But we agreed even then that the outcome in Indochina was indeed disastrous, both in human and geopolitical terms, for the United States and the region. Today we agree equally strongly that the consequences of defeat in Iraq would be even more serious and lasting.

The 1975 Communist victory in Indochina led to horrors that engulfed the region. The victorious Khmer Rouge killed one to two million of their fellow Cambodians in a genocidal, ideological rampage. In Vietnam and Laos, cruel gulags and “re-education” camps enforced repression. Millions of people fled, mostly by boat, with thousands dying in the attempt.

The defeat had a lasting and significant strategic impact. Leonid Brezhnev trumpeted that the global “correlation of forces” had shifted in favor of “socialism,” and the Soviets went on a geopolitical offensive in the third world for a decade. Their invasion of Afghanistan was one result. Demoralized European leaders publicly lamented Soviet aggressiveness and American paralysis.

True, the consequences of defeat were mitigated by various factors. The Nixon-Kissinger breakthrough with China contributed to China’s role as a counterweight to Moscow’s and Hanoi’s new power in Southeast Asia. (Although China, a Khmer Rouge ally, was less scrupulous than the United States about who its partners were.)

And despite the defeat in 1975, America’s 10 years in Indochina had positive effects. Lee Kuan Yew, then prime minister of Singapore, has well articulated how the consequences would have been worse if the United States had not made the effort in Indochina. “Had there been no U.S. intervention,” he argues, the will of non-communist countries to resist communist revolution in the 1960s “would have melted and Southeast Asia would most likely have gone communist.” The domino theory would have proved correct.

Today, in Iraq, there should be no illusion that defeat would come at an acceptable price. George Orwell wrote that the quickest way of ending a war is to lose it. But anyone who thinks an American defeat in Iraq will bring a merciful end to this conflict is deluded. Defeat would produce an explosion of euphoria among all the forces of Islamist extremism, throwing the entire Middle East into even greater upheaval. The likely human and strategic costs are appalling to contemplate. Perhaps that is why so much of the current debate seeks to ignore these consequences.

As in Indochina more than 30 years ago, millions of Iraqis today see the United States helping them defeat their murderous opponents as the only hope for their country. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have committed themselves to working with us and with their democratically elected government to enable their country to rejoin the world as a peaceful, moderate state that is a partner to its neighbors instead of a threat. If we accept defeat, these Iraqis will be at terrible risk. Thousands upon thousands of them will flee, as so many Vietnamese did after 1975.

The new strategy of the coalition and the Iraqis, ably directed by Gen. David Petraeus, offers the best prospect of reversing the direction of events — provided that we show staying power. Osama bin Laden said, a few months after 9/11, that “when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature they will like the strong horse.” The United States, in his mind, is the weak horse. American defeat in Iraq would embolden the extremists in the Muslim world, demoralize and perhaps destabilize many moderate friendly governments, and accelerate the radicalization of every conflict in the Middle East.

Our conduct in Iraq is a crucial test of our credibility, especially with regard to the looming threat from revolutionary Iran. Our Arab and Israeli friends view Iraq in that wider context. They worry about our domestic debate, which had such a devastating impact on the outcome of the Vietnam War, and they want reassurance.

When government officials argued that American credibility was at stake in Indochina, critics ridiculed the notion. But when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990, he and his colleagues invoked Vietnam as a reason not to take American warnings seriously. The United States cannot be strong against Iran — or anywhere — if we accept defeat in Iraq.

Peter W. Rodman, an assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs from 2001 to March, is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. William Shawcross is the author of “Allies: Why the West Had to Remove Saddam.”
 
156sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 17:48
Gates to replace both Chairman and Vice-Chairman of JCS

Asked whether the developments indicated GOP support for the war was waning, Gates replied, "No, I don't think it says that."

Agreed. I think what it says is;

"Gen Pace was Rumsfelds 'yes man' for the past 1/2 decade. There is simply no way the Dems were going to allow him to continue as Chairman."
 
157Boxman
ID: 571114225
Wed, Jun 13, 2007, 20:03
Our Common Struggle
By NOURI AL-MALIKI
June 13, 2007; Page A19


BAGHDAD -- Americans keen to understand the ongoing struggle for a new Iraq can be guided by the example of their own history. In the 1860s, your country fought a great struggle of its own, a civil war that took hundreds of thousands of lives but ended in the triumph of freedom and the birth of a great power. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation signaled the destruction of the terrible institution of slavery, and the rise of a country dedicated, more than any other in the world of nation-states then and hence, to the principle of human liberty.

Our struggle in Iraq is similar to the great American quest, and is perhaps even more complicated. As your country was fighting that great contest over its unity and future, Iraq was a province of an Ottoman empire steeped in backwardness and ignorance. Half a century later, the British began an occupation of Iraq and drew the borders of contemporary Iraq as we know them today. Independence brought no relief to the people of our land. They were not given the means of political expression, nor were they to know political arrangements that respected their varied communities.

Under the Baath tyranny, Iraqis were to endure a brutal regime the likes of which they had never known before. Countless people were put to death on the smallest measure of suspicion. Wars were waged by that regime and our national treasure was squandered without the consent of a population that was herded into costly and brutal military campaigns. Today when I hear the continuous American debate about the struggle raging in Iraq, I can only recall with great sorrow the silence which attended the former dictator's wars.

It is perhaps true that only people who are denied the gift of liberty can truly appreciate its full meaning and bounty. I look with admiration at the American debate surrounding the Iraq war, and I admire even those opinions that differ from my own. As prime minister of Iraq I have been subjected to my share of criticism in that American debate, but I harbor no resentment and fully understand that the basic concerns of Americans are the safety of their young people fighting in our country and the national interests of their society. As this American debate goes on, I am guided and consoled by the sacred place of freedom and liberty in the American creed and in America's notion of itself.

War being what it is, the images of Iraq that come America's way are of car bombs and daily explosions. Missing from the coverage are the great, subtle changes our country is undergoing, the birth of new national ideas and values which will in the end impose themselves despite the death and destruction that the terrorists have been hell-bent on inflicting on us. Those who endured the brutality of the former regime, those who saw the outside world avert its gaze from their troubles, know the magnitude of the change that has come to Iraq. A fundamental struggle is being fought on Iraqi soil between those who believe that Iraqis, after a long nightmare, can retrieve their dignity and freedom, and others who think that oppression is the order of things and that Iraqis are doomed to a political culture of terror, prisons and mass graves. Some of our neighbors have made this struggle more lethal still, they have placed their bets on the forces of terror in pursuit of their own interests.

When I became prime minister a year and a half ago, my appointment emerged out of a political process unique in our neighborhood: Some 12 million voters took part in our parliamentary elections. They gave voice to their belief in freedom and open politics and their trust imposed heavy burdens on all of us in political life. Our enemies grew determined to drown that political process in indiscriminate violence, to divert attention from the spectacle of old men and women casting their vote, for the first time, to choose those who would govern in their name. You may take this right for granted in America, but for us this was a tantalizing dream during the decades of dictatorship and repression.

Before us lies a difficult road -- the imperative of national reconciliation, the drafting of a new social contract that acknowledges the diversity of our country. It was in that spirit that those who drafted our constitution made provisions for amending it. The opponents of the constitution were a minority, but we sought for our new political life the widest possible measure of consensus. From the outset, I committed myself to the principle of reconciliation, pledged myself to its success. I was determined to review and amend many provisions and laws passed in the aftermath of the fall of the old regime, among them the law governing de-Baathification. I aimed to find the proper balance between those who opposed the decrees on de-Baathification and others who had been victims of the Baath Party. This has not been easy, but we have stuck to that difficult task.

Iraq is well on its way to passing a new oil law that would divide the national treasure among our provinces and cities, based on their share of the population. This was intended to reassure those provinces without oil that they will not be left behind and consigned to poverty. The goal is to repair our oil sector, open the door for new investments and raise the standard of living of Iraqi families. Our national budget this year is the largest in Iraq's history, its bulk dedicated to our most neglected provinces and to improving the service sector in the country as a whole. Our path has been made difficult by the saboteurs and the terrorists who target our infrastructure and our people, but we have persevered, even though our progress has been obscured by the scenes of death and destruction.

Daily we still fight the battle for our security. We lose policemen and soldiers to the violence, as do the multinational forces fighting along our side. We are training and equipping a modern force, a truly national and neutral force, aided by our allies. This is against the stream of history here, where the armed forces have traditionally been drawn into political conflicts and struggles. What gives us sustenance and hope is an increase in the numbers of those who volunteer for our armed forces, which we see as proof of the devotion of our people to the stability and success of our national government.

We have entered into a war, I want it known, against militias that had preyed upon the weakness of the national government and in the absence of law and order in some of our cities, even in some of the districts in Baghdad, imposed their own private laws -- laws usually driven by extremism and a spirit of vengeance. Some of these militias presented themselves as defenders of their own respective communities against other militias. We believe that the best way to defeat these militias is to build and enhance the capabilities of our government as a defender of the rights of our citizens. A stable government cannot coexist with these militias.

Our conflict, it should be emphasized time and again, has been fueled by regional powers that have reached into our affairs. Iraq itself is eager to build decent relations with its neighbors. We don't wish to enter into regional entanglements. Our principle concern is to heal our country. We have reached out to those among our neighbors who are worried about the success and example of our democratic experiment, and to others who seem interested in enhancing their regional influence.

Our message has been the same to one and all: We will not permit Iraq to be a battleground for other powers. In the contests and ambitions swirling around Iraq, we are neutral and dedicated to our country's right to prosperity and a new life, inspired by a memory of a time when Baghdad was -- as Washington is today -- a beacon of enlightenment on which others gazed with admiration. We have come to believe, as Americans who founded your country once believed, that freedom is a precious inheritance. It is never cheap but the price is worth paying if we are to rescue our country.
 
159bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Thu, Jun 14, 2007, 12:53
We will not permit Iraq to be a battleground for other powers.

So what does this really mean? Is not the U.S. presence basically predicated on a belief that it is in our interests to confront our enemies in Iraq? Making a statement such as this has the same realistic meaning as saying "we will not allow our citizens to rob banks.....use heroin.....spoil the enviornment.....etc." If Maliki truely desired the U S to fight elsewhere, how would he make this occur? Answer is that he could not, as we would ignore any requests by him or any other Iraqis to discontinue the occupation until WE chose to do so.
 
160Boxman
ID: 251142612
Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 09:07
Do you think it's possible since he used the plural term powers that he's also referring to Iran, Syria and Turkey?
 
161Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 09:21
He specifies the reference in the previous paragraph: "Our conflict, it should be emphasized time and again, has been fueled by regional powers that have reached into our affairs."
 
162bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 12:27
Well, it's good to know that the only powers using Iraq as a battleground are regional.

Glad to learn that the U.S. is not involved in such behavior.
 
163Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 12:37
I think you misunderstand his point.
 
164bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 14:31
Yeah, well, I guess that I was attempting to also make a point - that his statements are pretty disingenuous.
 
165Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Fri, Jun 15, 2007, 14:44
I got that. I think if you understood his point, you'd realize that yours doesn't really work.
 
167Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jun 16, 2007, 09:37
What I Saw in Iraq
By JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
June 15, 2007; Page A17


I recently returned from Iraq and four other countries in the Middle East, my first trip to the region since December. In the intervening five months, almost everything about the American war effort in Baghdad has changed, with a new coalition military commander, Gen. David Petraeus; a new U.S. ambassador, Ryan Crocker; the introduction, at last, of new troops; and most important of all, a bold, new counterinsurgency strategy.

The question of course is -- is it working? Here in Washington, advocates of retreat insist with absolute certainty that it is not, seizing upon every suicide bombing and American casualty as proof positive that the U.S. has failed in Iraq, and that it is time to get out.

In Baghdad, however, discussions with the talented Americans responsible for leading this fight are more balanced, more hopeful and, above all, more strategic in their focus -- fixated not just on the headline or loss of the day, but on the larger stakes in this struggle, beginning with who our enemies are in Iraq. The officials I met in Baghdad said that 90% of suicide bombings in Iraq today are the work of non-Iraqi, al Qaeda terrorists. In fact, al Qaeda's leaders have repeatedly said that Iraq is the central front of their global war against us. That is why it is nonsensical for anyone to claim that the war in Iraq can be separated from the war against al Qaeda -- and why a U.S. pullout, under fire, would represent an epic victory for al Qaeda, as significant as their attacks on 9/11.

Some of my colleagues in Washington claim we can fight al Qaeda in Iraq while disengaging from the sectarian violence there. Not so, say our commanders in Baghdad, who point out that the crux of al Qaeda's strategy is to spark Iraqi civil war.

Al Qaeda is launching spectacular terrorist bombings in Iraq, such as the despicable attack on the Golden Mosque in Samarra this week, to try to provoke sectarian violence. Its obvious aim is to use Sunni-Shia bloodshed to collapse the Iraqi government and create a failed state in the heart of the Middle East, radicalizing the region and providing a base from which to launch terrorist attacks against the West.

Facts on the ground also compel us to recognize that Iran is doing everything in its power to drive us out of Iraq, including providing substantive support, training and sophisticated explosive devices to insurgents who are murdering American soldiers. Iran has initiated a deadly military confrontation with us, from bases in Iran, which we ignore at our peril, and at the peril of our allies throughout the Middle East.

The precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces would not only throw open large parts of Iraq to domination by the radical regime in Tehran, it would also send an unmistakable message to the entire Middle East -- from Lebanon to Gaza to the Persian Gulf where Iranian agents are threatening our allies -- that Iran is ascendant there, and America is in retreat. One Arab leader told me during my trip that he is extremely concerned about Tehran's nuclear ambitions, but that he doubted America's staying power in the region and our political will to protect his country from Iranian retaliation over the long term. Abandoning Iraq now would substantiate precisely these gathering fears across the Middle East that the U.S. is becoming an unreliable ally.

That is why -- as terrible as the continuing human cost of fighting this war in Iraq is -- the human cost of losing it would be even greater.

Gen. Petraeus and other U.S. officials in Iraq emphasize that it is still too soon to draw hard judgments about the success of our new security strategy -- but during my visit I saw hopeful signs of progress. Consider Anbar province, Iraq's heart of darkness for most of the past four years. When I last visited Anbar in December, the U.S. military would not allow me to visit the provincial capital, Ramadi, because it was too dangerous. Anbar was one of al Qaeda's major strongholds in Iraq and the region where the majority of American casualties were occurring. A few months earlier, the Marine Corps chief of intelligence in Iraq had written off the entire province as "lost," while the Iraq Study Group described the situation there as "deteriorating."

When I returned to Anbar on this trip, however, the security environment had undergone a dramatic reversal. Attacks on U.S. troops there have dropped from an average of 30 to 35 a day a few months ago to less than one a day now, according to Col. John Charlton, commander of the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division, headquartered in Ramadi. Whereas six months ago only half of Ramadi's 23 tribes were cooperating with the coalition, all have now been persuaded to join an anti-al Qaeda alliance. One of Ramadi's leading sheikhs told me: "A rifle pointed at an American soldier is a rifle pointed at an Iraqi."

The recent U.S. experience in Anbar also rebuts the bromide that the new security plan is doomed to fail because there is no "military" solution for Iraq. In fact, no one believes there is a purely "military" solution for Iraq. But the presence of U.S. forces is critical not just to ensuring basic security, but to a much broader spectrum of diplomatic, political and economic missions -- which are being carried out today in Iraq under Gen. Petraeus's counterinsurgency strategy.

In Anbar, for example, the U.S. military has been essential to the formation and survival of the tribal alliance against al Qaeda, simultaneously holding together an otherwise fractious group of Sunni Arab leaders through deft diplomacy, while establishing a political bridge between them and the Shia-dominated government in Baghdad. "This is a continuous effort," Col. Charlton said. "We meet with the sheikhs every single day and at every single level."

In Baghdad, U.S. forces have cut in half the number of Iraqi deaths from sectarian violence since the surge began in February. They have also been making critical improvements in governance, basic services and commercial activity at the grassroots level.

On Haifa Street, for instance, where there was bloody fighting not so long ago, the 2nd "Black Jack" Brigade of our First Cavalry Division, under the command of a typically impressive American colonel, Bryan Roberts, has not only retaken the neighborhood from insurgents, but is working with the local population to revamp the electrical grid and sewer system, renovate schools and clinics, and create an "economic safe zone" where businesses can reopen. Indeed, of the brigade's five "lines of operations," only one is strictly military. That Iraq reality makes pure fiction of the argument heard in Washington that the surge will fail because it is only "military."

Some argue that the new strategy is failing because, despite gains in Baghdad and Anbar, violence has increased elsewhere in the country, such as Diyala province. This gets things backwards: Our troops have succeeded in improving security conditions in precisely those parts of Iraq where the "surge" has focused. Al Qaeda has shifted its operations to places like Diyala in large measure because we have made progress in pushing them out of Anbar and Baghdad. The question now is, do we consolidate and build on the successes that the new strategy has achieved, keeping al Qaeda on the run, or do we abandon them?

To be sure, there are still daunting challenges ahead. Iraqi political leaders, in particular, need to step forward and urgently work through difficult political questions, whose resolution is necessary for national reconciliation and, as I told them, continuing American support.

These necessary legislative compromises would be difficult to accomplish in any political system, including peaceful, long-established democracies -- as the recent performance of our own Congress reminds us. Nonetheless, Iraqi leaders are struggling against enormous odds to make progress, and told me they expect to pass at least some of the key benchmark bills this summer. It is critical that they do so.

Here, too, however, a little perspective is useful. While benchmarks are critically important, American soldiers are not fighting in Iraq today only so that Iraqis can pass a law to share oil revenues. They are fighting because a failed state in the heart of the Middle East, overrun by al Qaeda and Iran, would be a catastrophe for American national security and our safety here at home. They are fighting al Qaeda and agents of Iran in order to create the stability in Iraq that will allow its government to take over, to achieve the national reconciliation that will enable them to pass the oil law and other benchmark legislation.

I returned from Iraq grateful for the progress I saw and painfully aware of the difficult problems that remain ahead. But I also returned with a renewed understanding of how important it is that we not abandon Iraq to al Qaeda and Iran, so long as victory there is still possible.

And I conclude from my visit that victory is still possible in Iraq -- thanks to the Iraqi majority that desperately wants a better life, and because of the courage, compassion and competence of the extraordinary soldiers and statesmen who are carrying the fight there, starting with Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker. The question now is, will we politicians in Washington rise to match their leadership, sacrifices and understanding of what is on the line for us in Iraq -- or will we betray them, and along with them, America's future security?

Mr. Lieberman is an Independent Democratic senator from Connecticut.
 
168walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Mon, Jun 18, 2007, 14:09
June 17, 2007
Guest Columnist
The Long View in Iraq
By ROGER COHEN
International Herald Tribune
NEW YORK


The Iraqi conflict is going to be with us for years if not decades. The country has become the focus of a crisis of Islamic civilization that is closer to its onset than its conclusion. Violent conflict between the now dominant Shiite community and Sunnis nostalgic for power is but one aspect of this epochal upheaval.

As in the Palestinian territories, the Iraqi struggle has been complicated by the presence of forces driven not by national goals but by the global objectives of jihadist Islamism. These jihadists, finding inspiration in their reading of the sacred texts of Islam, have embarked on a holy war against the West.

It is against such fanatics, some of whom call themselves Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, that General David Petraeus, the top American commander in Iraq, has just announced a major offensive. I wish Petraeus and the 155,000 troops now in Iraq luck, but I am not hopeful.

The fact is that however many bomb makers are taken out, however many cells broken, the social and religious forces driving angry young men across the Muslim world into this sort of fight are not about to abate.

A population explosion is pushing these men into societies with few jobs and scant hope for the future beyond a range of causes - from Palestine to Iraq to the perceived debauchery of modernity - capable of drawing them into a consoling, if nihilistic, zealotry.

Against this reality, exacerbated in Iraq by the whirlwind fragmentation that often occurs in multi-ethnic societies when the lid of despotism is lifted, America's September deadline for measuring the progress achieved by the addition of 30,000 troops looks almost comical.

Let's face it folks, things are not going to be measurably better in Iraq by September. They may be about the same; they could be worse. The destructive energy disaggregating the country is still building. Wars tend to end when their participants are exhausted. We are not there yet, not even close.

The other day, I met Mokhtar Lamani, a distinguished Moroccan diplomat who took on the thankless task of representing the Arab League in Baghdad. He recently quit because, as usual, the Arab League could not get its act together. Anyway, a non-Arab state, Iran, is the major regional player in Iraq. Its envoy would not even call on Lamani.

Before he left, Lamani did something useful. Each time there was a bomb or killing, he asked his staff to identify the group claiming responsibility and, if its existence could be verified, note it down. The list reached more than 300 names. "We are not talking about a civil war, but a series of civil wars," Lamani said.

These wars - bringing together global, religious, regional and national struggles - should be seen as facets of the crisis of Islamic civilization.

The United States is a big country at the apogee of its power. But there are historical forces that even very big countries cannot stop. At best, they can be contained - and it is to containment that President George W. Bush must now look. He should have the courage to admit his mistakes, but also to resist calls for complete withdrawal driven more by electoral calculus than concern for Iraqis.

The last military build-up will not be repeated. Americans have no stomach for a further "surge" and the U.S. armed forces have no capacity for one. Republicans, facing an unpopular war, are going to walk off the reservation unless the president changes course in the fall.

I see four core American interests in Iraq that cannot be abandoned. There must be no Afghan-like Al Qaeda takeover of wide areas. There must be no genocide (say a Shiite sweep against Sunnis). There must be no regional conflagration (for example, a Turkish invasion). And there must be no return to the old order (murderous Stalinist dictatorship).

To ensure this, the United States must keep a military presence in Iraq for the foreseeable future. The size of this deterrent force is up for debate, but 50,000 soldiers, or 105,000 less than today, is one talked-about figure. The timing of the drawdown will have to be discussed with Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, the Iraqi prime minister, but it should begin soon after September.

Pulling out a lot of troops is the only way to increase pressure on Maliki to make the political compromises - on distribution of oil revenue, the constitution and de-Baathification - that will give Iraq some long-term chance of cohering. That chance will be increased if, as the United States steps down, the United Nations steps up.

E-mail: rocohen@nytimes.com
 
169sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, Jun 19, 2007, 14:07
US citizen, acting as FBI informant, detained by US Military for 97 days...

WTF is wrong with the process, when this kind of sh*t is happening??????
 
170Perm Dude
ID: 22536187
Tue, Jun 19, 2007, 16:40
Obama with a short and sweet argument: "There's not going to be a military solution to the problems there."



 
171sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 16:38
Iraqi Refugees

"Whatever is in America," Toma says, "it will be a thousand times better than what we had in Iraq or Turkey because there are work opportunities. There is no discrimination, no hatred." {emphasis added}

If only that were true.
 
172Perm Dude
ID: 2452258
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 10:32
This has started to gain some traction:

Suddenly, everyone killed in Iraq is "al Qaeda"

If it weren't so audacious it might not work. But this Administration is nothing if not bold.

Once again, we're being lied to.
 
173walk
ID: 75112114
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 12:36
Very interesting, and disturbing, trend. So transparent, too. "Gotta fight Quaida...can't run away from that war." A shame that it's being so consistently fed by the MM.

- walk
 
174Perm Dude
ID: 5853289
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 16:20
An excellent, on the ground account of what is going on with the surge.

As I noted in the other thread, Petraeus and the soldiers there are top notch, and it appears we are doing everything we can, within out abilities.

But is is still too late, IMO. This will fail because the Iraqis will never be strong enough, while we're there, to take over the security of their own country. They have no army, and the police are weak, underpaid, and corrupt.
 
175walk
ID: 75112114
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 16:30
Yeah, I read that, PD. Very difficult situation our troops are in. Almost like whack a mole or treading water. It's hard.

I watched a compelling interview on the IFC's Henry Rollins Show where he interviewed two guys from the "Iraq Veterans for Peace" group. His interviews are a good ten minutes long, so they have some depth. If you can find this interview (the link below just shows a pic), it's worth a watch -- along similar lines to the story posted above.

Link

- walk
 
176Tree
ID: 385182816
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 17:31
maybe i'm wrong, but didn't it take us less time to defeat the Nazi reign over Europe then it's taking us to secure Baghdad?
 
177walk
ID: 75112114
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 16:33
Perspective on Islamic Radicalism, from a former Radical

I wasn't sure where to put this, but found it interesting.

- walk
 
178walk
ID: 75112114
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 16:44
And I realize the reputation of the Daily Mail in the UK is not too good...
 
179Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 19:41
The lifespan of these things are more detirmined by the number of suicidal crazies and the quality of their logistical support than by the quality of the defense.
 
180walk
ID: 75112114
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 14:05
More Fallout: Stories of Contractor Casualties and Wounded
 
181walk
ID: 75112114
Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 09:32
Two More GOP Pols Call for Iraq Withdrawal
 
182Perm Dude
ID: 40637918
Mon, Jul 09, 2007, 23:40
Recyling the big names...

Oh, BTW, Iraq hasn't met any of their progress goals...

And for this, we're now up to $12 billion/month.

You'd think that with a Republican free market guy in the White House there would be a freer market for us war consumers to make different war choices here. But we're stuck with the war choice the government has made for us.
 
183Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 12:06
 
184Tree
ID: 566231220
Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 21:34
House OKs plan to withdraw US troops
 
185Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247
Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 22:43


I'm sure most of you on the East Coast missed this presentation as the Bush Administration Scandal Award Show broadcast was over six hours long. Regardless of how loud the music as played by the producers, Donald Rumsfeld would not leave the podium. He was going on and on about, "well, there are scandals we know, and scandals we know we don't know, well, I know and Dick knows, but we know that you don't know. Then there are scandals that we know that we don't know, called 'unknown unknowns'. Then there is Enron, Al Gonzales, Halliburton, the girl pages... whoops, that is an unknown, unknown..."

I guess Rummy is collecting unemployment and has to apply to at least three employers a week in order to continue to collect benefits. He told the very nice lady at the unemployment office that this was an interview to get a new position with the Administration, maybe Tony Snow's gig.
 
186Perm Dude
ID: 196121310
Fri, Jul 13, 2007, 23:31
He plans on driving our military into the ground, as far as I can see.

I'm all for helping Iraq. But we shouldn't be, essentially, killing off our military effectiveness for the next 5-10 years in order for Iraq's political process to move forward.
 
187Perm Dude
ID: 196121310
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 00:10
Lying to cover your incompetent "friend's" ass
 
188Tree
ID: 16657146
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 11:58
Well then by all means, let's get the hell out of dodge...

Iraq PM: Country can manage without U.S.
 
189Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 13:08
Part of me thinks a withdrawal would force the Iraqi government's hand in protecting their people. They wouldn't have our forces to rely on and would have to become self sustaining. So long as they have us to lean on for the majority of their security, what's the incentive on their part?

What happens if we leave and Iraq goes straight to hell and the insurgents take over the place? What actions do we take?
 
190Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 13:17
Probably depends first on which insurgents you're talking about.
 
191Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 13:21
It hasn't gone "straight to hell" already? Sounds like the "insurgents", i.e. the Iraqis, are already in power.

I'll tell you what actions we take, we use the $12 billion dollars we waste each month in Iraq and pay down our ridiculous deficit.
 
192Tree
ID: 126351412
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 13:37
What happens if we leave and Iraq goes straight to hell and the insurgents take over the place? What actions do we take?

what we should have done 4 1/2 years ago. leave Iraq alone. had we done that in the first place, we wouldn't have any insurgents in the first place. All attacking Iraq accomplished was making the world considerably less safe than it was 4 1/2 years ago.
 
193Perm Dude
ID: 20629147
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 13:57
I think it's a bit ironic that this Republican President believes in a time limit to helping US citizens (i.e., limiting unemployment benefits, welfare, etc) so as not to foster dependence upon the system, but there appears to be no limit, in terms of lives or dollars, that this President will send on propping up the Iraqi government until they get on their feet, apparently.
 
194sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 16:05
dont these headlines say it all? really?


Soldier pays man to shoot him, to avoid return to Iraq

Pentagon rapped over missing armor for troops

Report rips Battalion Commander in Haditha killings

Army fails to meet recruiting goals for second consecutive month



Take some declining morale, mix in some poorly executed logistic contracts, stir in a little inept leadership and finally top with inadequate trainee numbers.

How much more troubled do we want our military to become?
 
195Perm Dude
ID: 20629147
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 16:24
I understand that, in the spring, we'll start hitting a hard wall of troop exhaustion. I wanted to read a bit more before posting on it, but the military believes that the constant cycling of troops back into Iraq comes up against a "wall" of exhaustion. After that, troop readiness and effectiveness drops very sharply.

Sarge, do you know what I'm referring to here? I've gotta read a bit more on it.
 
196Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 22:34
As usual, no meaningful responses. More wordsmithing from Mith and half baked ideas from SZ.

At least Tree gave an answer. Thanks Tree.

But he said if necessary, Iraqi police and soldiers could fill the void left by the departure of coalition forces.

"We say in full confidence that we are able, God willing, to take the responsibility completely in running the security file if the international forces withdraw at any time they want," he said.


OK. Anybody believe this? If he truly believes it, it is their country, maybe we send our boys home.
 
197Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 22:48
...
 
198Perm Dude
ID: 20629147
Sat, Jul 14, 2007, 22:50
His government is in trouble. I suspect he said that in order to prop himself up internally.

Of the 18 benchmarks for progress, there really are only 6 important ones, and none of them have been hit. Not even close.
 
199Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 06:54
I think you're right PD, but if he had no leg to stand on with that argument why say it? It may be a partial truth, but I don't think it's a complete falsehood. Al-Maliki has to know the general political environment in the US is leaning towards getting out of his country.

Looking at the 6 unsatisfactory benchmarks paints a picture for us.

De-Baathification - In hindsight we had our chance with this in the early days of occupation that we (the United States) may not have again. The former and current Baathists may not be able to reconcile until we're out.

Oil revenue distribution - This is the biggest one, IMO, and we need to stay out of it. It can't be perceived that the US brokered this one. I think an oil distribution law would have more credence if it was done without us around.

Iraqi commanders with full authority - The Prime Minister of Iraq just said they could handle things. Maybe it was an ass covering manuever or a partial one. I've said before that Iraq made sense to me provided if the people themselves were willing to fight and die for their freedom. It looks to me like they are more able (than before) and willing to do so.

At some point we've got to hand over the keys to them and let them drive. When your 16 year old kid goes out to drive you don't have 100% confidence in him, but you can't exactly drive him everywhere either.

Even-handed law enforcement - You could make the argument that we don't have that in the US to 100% satisfaction, but obviously it's not as bad as Iraq. Again, this is an internal issue for Al-Maliki. I don't see how 150,000 US troops are going to accomplish this. This is a social change that has to occur and their hatred of us could be a driver here because if one person helps us maybe they are a victim of reprisals.

Independent Iraqi units - This one we need to help out with in terms of training, but then the Iraqi commanders have to generate these units.

Political authorities and false accusations against Security Forces - Is this coalition security forces, Iraqi ones or both? Are we really trying to say that a benchmark for success is that "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor"? Talk about setting the bar high. Apply that standard to this country and we're screwed.
 
200Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 09:52
but if he had no leg to stand on with that argument why say it?

Saving face. The benchmarks, set by America, failure to meet them, measured by America are seen at least in part as a critique of his effectiveness as a leader.


Is this coalition security forces, Iraqi ones or both?
That's item 18 on the report. It specifically means Iraqi Security Forces.
 
201Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 10:45
When Flypaper Doesn't Work
Even without seeing indicators of a specific attack, officials said, they do believe that the overall risk from Al Qaeda is rising. The U.S. attacks on Al Qaeda's former base in Afghanistan in the fall of 2001 severely disrupted Osama bin Laden's network. But since then, Al Qaeda has rebuilt its headquarters in Pakistan and is more dangerous than at any time since the Sept. 11 attacks, according to a new classified threat assessment.


The report, titled "Al Qaeda Better Positioned to Strike the West," makes dire assessments of the network's ability to attack within the United States and Europe, the two officials said. They said its conclusions will be incorporated into a more comprehensive and formal National Intelligence Estimate that is scheduled to be released this summer after two years of preparation. Details about the report were first disclosed Wednesday by the Associated Press.
 
202Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 13:16
The Surge Is Working
By OMAR FADHIL
July 13, 2007; Page A13


Baghdad

For nearly three-and-a-half years, the two most dangerous enemies of the American mission in Iraq -- and of the majority of Iraqis who want to build a stable democracy -- had been growing in terms of their capacity to inflict damage. This despite the losses they suffered in battles with Iraqi and American security forces.

Moqtada al-Sadr, on the one hand, grew from a small annoyance as a gang leader in Najaf in April 2003 to become the leader of a monstrous militia that, with the spark al Qaeda provided by bombing the Askari shrine in Samarra, created the sectarian bloodbath we witnessed throughout 2006.

On the other side, al Qaeda's network in Iraq grew from a few dozen infiltrators, supported by disgruntled locals, to an entity that was until recently bragging about establishing Islamic rule on the soil of at least two Iraqi provinces east and west of Baghdad.

And so this country was going through the worst times ever as we moved towards the end of 2006. Iraq was being torn apart by these two terror networks and Iraq was said to be on the verge of "civil war," if it wasn't actually there already.

But the situation looks quite different now.

Last year's crisis made Washington and Baghdad realize that urgent measures needed to be taken to stop the deterioration, and ultimately reverse it. So Washington decided to send in thousands of additional troops. And Baghdad agreed to move its lazy bones and mobilize more Iraqi troops to the capital and coordinate a joint crackdown with the American forces on all outlaw groups, Sunni and Shiite alike.

The big question these days is, did it actually work? Even partially?

First I think we need to remember that states and their traditional armies need to be judged by different metrics than gangs and terror organizations. The latter don't need to win the majority of their battles with American and Iraqi forces. The strength of terrorists and militias is simply their ability to subjugate the civilian populace with fear.

Here is exactly where the American surge and Iraqi plan have proven effective in Baghdad.

The combined use of security walls, the heavy security-force presence in the streets, and an overwhelming number of checkpoints have highly restricted the movement of terrorists and militias inside Baghdad and led to separation. Not a separation of ordinary Sunnis from ordinary Shiites but a separation of both Sunni and Shiite terrorists from their respective priority targets, i.e., civilians of the other sect.

With their movement restricted and their ability to perform operations reduced, they had to look for other targets that are easier to reach. After all, when the goal is to defeat America in Iraq and undermine the democratic political process any target is a good target.

Just look at the difference between the aftermath of the first Samarra bombing in February of 2006 and that of the second bombing in June of 2007. Days after the 2006 bombing more than a hundred Sunni mosques were hit in retaliatory attacks, and thousands of Sunnis were executed by militias in the months that followed. This time only four or five mosques were attacked, none of them in Baghdad proper that I know of.

Sadr's militias have moved the main battlefield south to cities like Samawah, Nasiriyah and Diwaniyah where there's no American surge of troops, and from which many Iraqi troops were recalled to serve in Baghdad. But over there, too, the Iraqi security forces and local administrations did not show the weakness that Sadr was hoping to see. As a result, Sadr's representatives have been forced to accept "truces."

I know this may make things sound as if Sadr has the upper hand, that he can force a truce on the state. But the fact that is missing from news reports is that, with each new eruption of clashes, Sadr's position becomes weaker as tribes and local administrations join forces to confront his outlaw militias.

Al Qaeda hasn't been any luckier than Sadr, and the tide began to turn even before the surge was announced. The change came from the most unlikely city and unlikely people, Ramadi and its Sunni tribes.

In Baghdad the results have been just as spectacular so far. The district where al Qaeda claimed to have established its Islamic emirate is exactly where al Qaeda is losing big now, and at the hands of its former allies who have turned on al Qaeda and are slowly reaching out to the government.

While al Qaeda and Sadr are by no means finished off militarily, what has changed is that both of them are fighting their former public base of support. That course can't lead them to success in fomenting the sectarian war they had bet their money on.

It would be unrealistic to expect political progress to take place along the same timeline as this military progress. The obvious reason is that Iraqi politics tend to be affected by developments on the battlefield. Anyone familiar with the basics of negotiations should understand this.

First things first. Let's allow our troops to finish their job. And when that is done nation-building will follow, and that's where diplomats and politicians will have to do the fighting in their own way while American soldiers can finally enjoy a well-deserved rest.

Backing off now is not an option. The light at the end of the tunnel faded for a whole dark year, but we can see it again now and it's getting brighter. It's our duty to keep walking towards it.

Mr. Fadhil co-writes a blog, IraqTheModel.com, from Baghdad.
 
203Perm Dude
ID: 20634158
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 14:10
I think it is true that the high-visibility targetting has been reduced to a large degree. I'm not convinced that this is a result of the surge--to a large degree I think is has to do with a change in tactics. Blowing up your opponents' mosque doesn't further your goals, and it took a few bombs for the insurgents to get wise to that.

By nearly every measure the surge has failed in its goals, just as the Iraqi government has failed in there. We don't have to guess--we have particular metrics with which to measure success, and they haven't been met. We need not change the targets to see that.

Indeed, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the writer appears to want it both ways: al-Qaeda to be much bigger and stranger in Iraq than ever, and yet the US military presense to be seen to be "working" in Iraq. To be blunt, if the surge was working, we'd see fewer al-qaeda, not more.

At this point we need to realize that we are not only not making progress toward our goals, but losing in many other ways as well. Our continued troops in Iraq makes it impossible for us to use our troops elsewhere, and our inflexibility there emboldens our enemies everywhere.

pd
 
204Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 16:08
To be blunt, if the surge was working, we'd see fewer al-qaeda, not more.

I don't wholly agree with that sentiment. In terms of head count, absolutely, but in terms of a % of total attacks I would disagree. If via the surge we are able to lessen Sunni/Shia violence against each other yet Al Qaeda attacks did not lessen we would see a "rise" in Al Qaeda activity simply because there is less violence from the other segments.
 
205Perm Dude
ID: 20634158
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 17:42
As noted above, Boxman, this Administration is even backdating al-qaeda attacks. We cannot trust the Administration to do even the minimal diligence when it comes to telling the American people who is attacking.

Also, keep in mind that the surge is only about Baghdad. It is not intended to protect other areas of the country.
 
206Seattle Zen
ID: 436391421
Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 18:21
Boxman - post 202

I've mentioned this in a previous thread, when one wants to bring attention to a story/column, one needs to link to it and cut-and-paste relevant parts, just as MITH did in 201. Where did you get this column in post 202? If someone wants to fact check your post, they are unable since you failed to post a link.

Post 199: I've said before that Iraq made sense to me provided if the people themselves were willing to fight and die for their freedom. It looks to me like they are more able (than before) and willing to do so.

This whole thread has gotten close to ridiculous. None of us are in Iraq, we are reading highly biased, incomplete news pieces that have been shown to be aimed at placating the American public. The whole term al Queda has lost meaning thanks to a administration that is in dire need of public support and a media that is willing to play lapdog. Seriously, there is NO ONE, not any American journalist, not any Iraqi blogger, no one who knows who is a member of al Queda of Mesopotamia or how they are organized, how many of them there are, so for we as a group to speculate if there are more or less al Queda of Mesopotamia members and if this is a by product of the surge or not, is a complete waste of time.

Some people may be interested in having a conversation with you when you contribute comments like the one I pasted above, but don't care to talk about things you just pull out of your ass. Iyad Allawi's Iraqi's National Accord received only 14% of the votes in the Jan. 2005 elections. They were a coalition of secular and nationalist groups That 14% represents the number of people who are willing to sacrifice their lives for the idea of a state that ignores religious and tribal affiliations. If you have evidence that this number has gone up over 50%, please provide it.

Iraq has gone to hell, Boxman. Sure, the fighting would increase after we completely leave, but staying only delays the inevitable. I found your question about "when the insurgents take over the place" laughable because they represent the majority of the government today. The only ideal worth fighting for in Iraq today is the protection of the Kurds. I have been all for a three state solution, but really, all I care about is that the Kurds are allowed to continue to exist in peace, let the Sunni/shias fight it out.

I didn't find the self-serving tripe written in post 202 worthy of a response.
 
207Boxman
ID: 211139621
Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 07:39
I've mentioned this in a previous thread, when one wants to bring attention to a story/column, one needs to link to it and cut-and-paste relevant parts, just as MITH did in 201. Where did you get this column in post 202? If someone wants to fact check your post, they are unable since you failed to post a link.

ROFLMAO!! I'm sure someone else has told you this in a previous thread but it applies here as well; what a weak and limp response. I got this column from pullitoutofmyass.org

(By the way, it does mention the author's blog website on the bottom, but I doubt you read it. A little thing like reading comprehension might be a tad over your head.)

I got it from the Wall Street Journal online.

Do you cite where your little cartoons come from? What if we want to fact check that?



 
208Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 08:51
(By the way, it does mention the author's blog website on the bottom, but I doubt you read it. A little thing like reading comprehension might be a tad over your head.)

which, is not relevant to SZ's question, because i don't believe it actually came from his blog.

I got it from the Wall Street Journal online.

which, is relevant to SZ's question, and this response would have been enough, instead of your normal, antagonistic, overly-defensive response.
 
209Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Jul 16, 2007, 11:59
Simply right click on any editorial cartoon I post, or any image for that matter, and check Properties. That will give you the location of the image.

You are a pathetic troll who once again made me regret responding to your garbage.
 
210Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 09:59
More on the topic in post 201.

[This is a link to the same article in the Pakistan thread, regarding the White House intelligence assessment of Afghanistan. Since it makes strong points relvent to both discussions I felt it was worthwhile here as well. The excerpts I pulled for each thread are not the same.]
The bleak intelligence assessment was made public in the middle of a bitter Congressional debate about the future of American policy in Iraq. White House officials said it bolstered the Bush administration’s argument that Iraq was the “central front” in the war on terror, because that was where Qaeda operatives were directly attacking American forces.

The report nevertheless left the White House fending off accusations that it had been distracted by the war in Iraq and that the deals it had made with President Musharraf had resulted in lost time and lost ground.

While the assessment described the Qaeda branch in Iraq as the “most visible and capable affiliate” of the terror organization, intelligence officials noted that the operatives in Iraq remained focused on attacking targets inside that country’s borders, not those on American or European soil.


At the White House, Ms. Townsend found herself in the uncomfortable position of explaining why American military action was focused in Iraq when the report concluded that main threat of terror attacks that could be carried out in the United States emanated from the tribal areas of Pakistan.

She argued that it was Mr. bin Laden, as well as the White House, who regarded “Iraq as the central front in the war on terror.”

 
211Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 11:22
She argued that it was Mr. bin Laden, as well as the White House, who regarded “Iraq as the central front in the war on terror.”

Is that final sentence in italics meant to be a direct quote from bin Laden or Ms. Townsend?

If it is the former, it must be treated with a high level of skepticism, since most quotes attributed to bin Laden are either the product of unverifiable tapes and internet postings, or, as in the case of the 12/12/01 video where bin Laden allegedly confesses to the 9/11 attacks, widely derided as forgeries.

Townsend quoting bin Laden, in an effort to mobilize support for American military operations in Iraq, can be filed in the White House propoganda bin next to the Saddam attempts to get yellowcake from Niger papers.

 
212walk
ID: 75112114
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 13:44
July 18, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Help Wanted: Peacemaker
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I were the parent of a soldier in Iraq and I had just read that the Iraqi Parliament had decided to go on vacation for August, because, as the White House spokesman, Tony Snow, explained, it’s really hot in Baghdad then — “130 degrees.”

I’ve been in Baghdad in the summer and it is really hot. But you know what? It is a lot hotter when you’re in a U.S. military uniform, carrying a rifle and a backpack, sweltering under a steel helmet and worrying that a bomb can be thrown at you from any direction. One soldier told me he lost six pounds in one day. I’m sure the Iraqi Parliament is air-conditioned.

So let’s get this straight: Iraqi parliamentarians, at least those not already boycotting the Parliament, will be on vacation in August so they can be cool, while young American men and women, and Iraqi Army soldiers, will be fighting in the heat in order to create a proper security environment in which Iraqi politicians can come back in September and continue squabbling while their country burns.

Here is what I think of that: I think it’s a travesty — and for the Bush White House to excuse it with a Baghdad weather report shows just how much it has become a hostage to Iraq.

The administration constantly says the surge is necessary, but not sufficient. That’s right. There has to be a political deal. And the latest report card on Iraq showed that a deal is nowhere near completion. So where is the diplomatic surge? What are we waiting for? A cool day in December?

When you read stories in the newspapers every day about Americans who are going to Iraq for their third or even fourth tours and you think that this administration has never sent its best diplomats for even one tour yet — never made one, not one, single serious, big-time, big-tent diplomatic push to resolve this conflict, but instead has put everything on the military, it makes you sick.

Yes, yes, I know, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is going to make one of her quick-in-and-out trips to the Middle East next month to try to enlist support for an Israeli-Palestinian peace conference in the fall. I’m all for Arab-Israeli negotiations, but the place that really needs a peace conference right now is Iraq, and it won’t happen with drive-by diplomacy.

President Bush baffles me. If your whole legacy was riding on Iraq, what would you do? I’d draft the country’s best negotiators — Henry Kissinger, Jim Baker, George Shultz, George Mitchell, Dennis Ross or Richard Holbrooke — and ask one or all of them to go to Baghdad, under a U.N. mandate, with the following orders:

“I want you to move to the Green Zone, meet with the Iraqi factions and do not come home until you’ve reached one of three conclusions: 1) You have resolved the power- and oil-sharing issues holding up political reconciliation; 2) you have concluded that those obstacles are insurmountable and have sold the Iraqis on a partition plan that could be presented to the U.N. and supervised by an international force; 3) you have concluded that Iraqis are incapable of agreeing on either political reconciliation or a partition plan and told them that, as a result, the U.S. has no choice but to re-deploy its troops to the border and let Iraqis sort this out on their own.”

The last point is crucial. Any lawyer will tell you, if you’re negotiating a contract and the other side thinks you’ll never walk away, you’ve got no leverage. And in Iraq, we’ve never had any leverage. The Iraqis believe that Mr. Bush will never walk away, so they have no incentive to make painful compromises.

That’s why the Iraqi Parliament is on vacation in August and our soldiers are fighting in the heat. Something is wrong with this picture. First, Mr. Bush spends three years denying the reality that we need a surge of more troops to establish security and then, with Iraq spinning totally out of control and militias taking root everywhere, he announces a surge and criticizes others for being impatient.

At the same time, Mr. Bush announces a peace conference for Israelis and Palestinians — but not for Iraqis. He’s like a man trapped in a burning house who calls 911 to put out the brush fire down the street. Hello?

Quitting Iraq would be morally and strategically devastating. But to just drag out the surge, with no road map for a political endgame, with Iraqi lawmakers going on vacation, with no consequences for dithering, would be just as morally and strategically irresponsible.

We owe Iraqis our best military — and diplomatic effort — to avoid the disaster of walking away. But if they won’t take advantage of that, we owe our soldiers a ticket home.
 
214Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 20:45
An addendum to #211 pops up on the AP wire today.

US says al-Qaida leader arrested in Iraq

The U.S. command announced on Wednesday the arrest of an al-Qaida leader it said served as the link between the organization's command in Iraq and Osama bin Laden's inner circle, enabling it to wield considerable influence over the Iraqi group....

Khaled Abdul-Fattah Dawoud Mahmoud al-Mashhadani was the highest-ranking Iraqi in the al-Qaida in Iraq leadership when he was captured July 4 in Mosul, U.S. military spokesman Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner said.

Bergner told reporters that al-Mashhadani carried messages from bin Laden, and his deputy Ayman al-Zawahri, to the Egyptian-born head of al-Qaida in Iraq, Abu Ayyub al-Masri.

"There is a clear connection between al-Qaida in Iraq and al-Qaida senior leadership outside Iraq," Bergner said.

He said al-Mashhadani had told interrogators that al-Qaida's global leadership provides "directions, they continue to provide a focus for operations" and "they continue to flow foreign fighters into Iraq, foreign terrorists."


At the risk of sounding terminally cynical, I can only echo this analysis from


David Kurtz.

Hot on the heels of yesterday's release of the declassified NIE on Al Qaeda, the U.S. military in Baghdad announced today that it has captured a top leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq:

The U.S. command said Wednesday the highest-ranking Iraqi in the leadership of al-Qaida in Iraq has been arrested, adding that information from him indicates the group's foreign-based leadership wields considerable influence over the Iraqi chapter.
First off, the capture took place two weeks ago but was not announced until today. Hmmm, have we seen that before? And the detainee just happened to confess to a greater level of coordination between AQ in Iraq and Osama bin Laden's global AQ, right in line with the official White House line that AQ in Iraq and AQ are one and the same. The White House is already highlighting the capture in its daily email to reporters. Go figure.


The AP story even has quotes attributed to al-Mashhadani from his interrogation. Is that how the cloak and dagger world works - capture a high profile target, then publicly release what information you've gleaned from interrogation, thereby negating any possibility of further infiltration into his network? Or is that how the world of political propoganda works, courtesy of the MSM?

 
215walk
ID: 75112114
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 13:52
July 20, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Why the United Nations Belongs in Iraq
By ZALMAY KHALILZAD


AFTER meeting with President Bush on Tuesday, Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said that the Iraqi situation is “a problem of the whole world” and that the United Nations is prepared to contribute to the “Iraqi government and people to help them overcome this difficulty.”

The United States recognizes the global importance of stabilizing Iraq and supports this forward-leaning approach to enhancing the United Nations’ role. The United Nations possesses certain comparative advantages for undertaking complex internal and regional mediation efforts; it can also help internationalize the effort to stabilize the country.

In coming weeks, the United Nations will appoint a new envoy for Iraq and renew the Security Council mandate for its mission in Baghdad. As special envoy and ambassador to Afghanistan from 2003 to 2005, I saw how the United Nations could play an enormously helpful role when represented by talented envoys who are given the right mandate, and when supported by the major powers. In Iraq, the United States supports a larger United Nations role because we believe that with the right envoy and mandate it is the best vehicle to address the two fundamental issues driving the crisis in Iraq.

First, the United Nations has unmatched convening power that can help Iraq’s principal communities reach a national compact on the distribution of political and economic power. In the role of mediator, it has inherent legitimacy and the flexibility to talk to all parties, including elements outside the political process.

A new United Nations envoy should have a mandate to help Iraqis complete work on a range of issues: the law governing distribution of hydrocarbon revenues, the reform of the de-Baathification law, the review of the Constitution, the plan for demobilization of militias, an agreement for insurgents to give up their armed struggle. The envoy should be empowered to help resolve the status of Kirkuk and disputed internal boundaries and to prepare and monitor provincial elections. Also, the mandate should make it possible for the United Nations to explore potential third-party guarantees that may be needed to induce Iraqi factions to reconcile.

In this role, the United Nations has an added advantage by virtue of its role as co-leader with the Iraqi government of the International Compact for Iraq, an agreement that commits Iraq’s leaders to key political steps and policy reforms in exchange for economic and other support from the international community. The influence that the United Nations has over the release of any assistance will give its envoy significant leverage to encourage compromises among Iraqi leaders.

Second, the United Nations is also uniquely suited to work out a regional framework to stabilize Iraq. Several of Iraq’s neighbors — not only Syria and Iran but also some friends of the United States — are pursuing destabilizing policies. The United States supports a new mandate that creates a United Nations-led multilateral diplomatic process to contain the regional competition that is adding fuel to the fire of Iraq’s internal conflict.

This process should build on the work of the expanded neighbors conference in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, in May, where regional powers, as well as members of the Security Council and the eight industrialized nations, began a dialogue on Iraq and established a set of working groups on security, energy and refugees. Going forward, this dialogue should be institutionalized at the ministerial level under the leadership of the secretary general. Also, the United Nations envoy for Iraq should convene a contact group at the subministerial level that will meet regularly to determine whether specific agreements are being carried out.

To do this work, the United Nations will need additional political, financial, logistical and security support from states with interests in the region. In addition, the coalition will need to maintain forces in Iraq to build on the initial positive security results of our new strategy in Iraq, and to work with the United Nations to ensure that the coalition’s military strategy supports the internal and regional mediation efforts. The United States recognizes its responsibilities and is prepared to do its part.

While reasonable people can differ on whether the coalition should have intervened against Saddam Hussein’s regime, it is clear at this point that the future of Iraq will have a profound effect on the region and, in turn, on peace and stability in the world. The United States endorses Mr. Ban’s call for an expanded United Nations role in Iraq to help Iraq become a peaceful, stable country — one that will be a responsible partner in the international community and a force for moderation in the region.

Zalmay Khalilzad, ambassador to Iraq from 2005 to April, is the United States ambassador to the United Nations.
 
216walk
ID: 75112114
Fri, Jul 20, 2007, 14:52
Bush Assails Dems on Iraq War

Bush: “It is time to rise above partisanship, stand behind our troops in the field and give them everything they need to succeed,” Mr. Bush said in the White House Rose Garden. The president said he was conveying a message from the veterans and military support organizations he met this morning. Mr. Bush said today that the shelving of the bill demonstrated that “the Democratic leaders chose to have a political debate on a precipitous withdrawal of our troops from Iraq” and were apparently content to go home for August before passing the authorization bill, which includes a pay raise for the military.

Reid:“It is the height of hypocrisy for a president whose administration has sent our brave men and women into combat without the proper equipment, recuperation time, training or strategy for success to lecture Congress about supporting the troops,” Mr. Reid said, noting that Mr. Bush originally wanted a 3 percent raise for the military, not the 3.5 percent included in the bill. “I hope, but highly doubt, that President Bush will one day realize that supporting our troops is more than a slogan or a photo op,” Mr. Bush said.


- walk
 
217Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 18:14
How Empires End
By Patrick J. Buchanan
Friday, July 20, 2007


Responding to the call of Pope Urban II at Claremont in 1095, the Christian knights of the First Crusade set out for the Holy Land. In 1099, Jerusalem was captured. As their port in Palestine, the Crusaders settled on Acre on the Mediterranean.

There they built the great castle that was overrun by Saladin in 1187, but retaken by Richard the Lion-Hearted in 1191. Acre became the capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the stronghold of the Crusader state, which fell to the Mameluks in a bloody siege in 1291. The Christians left behind were massacred.

The ruins of Acre are now a tourist attraction.

Any who have visited this last outpost of Christendom in the Holy Land before Gen. Allenby marched into Jerusalem in 1917 cannot -- on reading of the massive U.S. embassy rising in Baghdad -- but think of Acre.

At a cost of $600 million, with walls able to withstand mortar and rocket fire, and space to accommodate 1,000 Americans, this mammoth embassy, largest on earth, will squat on the banks of the Tigris inside the Green Zone.

But, a decade hence, will the U.S. ambassador be occupying this imperial compound? Or will it be like the ruins of Acre?

What raises the question is a sense the United States, this time, is truly about to write off Iraq as a lost cause.

The Republican lines on Capitol Hill are crumbling. Starting with Richard Lugar, one GOP senator after another has risen to urge a drawdown of U.S. forces and a diplomatic solution to the war.

But this is non-credible. How can U.S. diplomats win at a conference table what 150,000 U.S. troops cannot secure on a battlefield?

Though Henry Kissinger was an advocate of this unnecessary war, he is not necessarily wrong when he warns of "geopolitical calamity." Nor is Ryan Crocker, U.S. envoy in Iraq, necessarily wrong when he says a U.S. withdrawal may be the end of the America war, but it will be the start of bloodier wars in Iraq and across the region.

Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari also warns of the perils of a rapid withdrawal: "The dangers vary from civil war to dividing the country to regional wars ... the danger is huge. Until the Iraqi forces and institutions complete their readiness, there is a responsibility on the U.S. and other countries to stand by the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people to help build up their capabilities."

In urging a redeployment of U.S. forces out of Iraq, and a new focus on diplomacy, Lugar listed four strategic goals. Prevent creation of a safe haven for terrorists. Prevent sectarian war from spilling out into the broader Middle East. Prevent Iran's domination of the region. Limit the loss of U.S. credibility through the region and world as a result of a failed mission in Iraq.

But how does shrinking the U.S. military power and presence in Iraq advance any of these goals?

Longtime critics of the war like Gen. William Odom say it is already lost, and fighting on will only further bleed the country and make the ultimate price even higher. The general may be right in saying it is time to cut our losses. But we should take a hard look at what those losses may be.

It is a near certainty the U.S.-backed government will fall and those we leave behind will suffer the fate of our Vietnamese and Cambodian friends in 1975. As U.S. combat brigades move out, contractors, aid workers and diplomats left behind will be more vulnerable to assassination and kidnapping. There could be a stampede for the exit and a Saigon ending in the Green Zone.

The civil and sectarian war will surely escalate when we go, with Iran aiding its Shia allies and Sunni nations aiding the Sunnis. A breakup of the country seems certain. Al-Qaida will claim it has run the U.S. superpower out of Iraq and take the lessons it has learned to Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. The Turks, with an army already on the border, will go in to secure their interests in not having the Kurdish PKK operating from Iraq and in guaranteeing there is no independent Kurdistan. What will America do then?

As for this country, the argument over who is responsible for the worst strategic debacle in American history will be poisonous.

With a U.S. defeat in Iraq, U.S. prestige would plummet across the region. Who will rely on a U.S. commitment for its security? Like the British and French before us, we will be heading home from the Middle East.

What we are about to witness is how empires end.
 
218Perm Dude
ID: 59610219
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 19:01
ROFL! Yeah, our Empire is over, Pat.

Too many holes to poke at. But a good laugh, nevertheless.
 
219Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 19:42
Give it a whirl PD. I'd be curious to see what you come up with.
 
220Perm Dude
ID: 59610219
Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 20:39
How about this: Richard Lugar (and others advocating an orderly withdrawal) never said it was the US at the bargaining table. Pat seems to believe that Lugar, and others, want to trade direct US military for direct US diplomacy. What Lugar, Voinovich, and others want is for the parties themselves to negotiate a settlement to their own civil war, and stop depending upon a military solution to their problems. If nothing else, we know that there is no military solution there.

How about this: We aren't an Empire Never have been. We went into Iraq for a lot of reasons, but building upon or expanding the "American Empire" wasn't one of them.

Another strawman argument, you say? How about: Who, among the "crumbling Republicans" has advotated a "rapid withdrawal?" Anyone? Certainly no one that Buchanan has named. He quotes Zebari lamenting an action we are not advocating.

There's more, but it is silly to go on.
 
221Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 10:51
There are a lot of things I don't like about Pat Buchanon. But I have to admit (any inaccuracies or exagerations aside) that this column pretty closely mirrors my own opinions re Iraq. Like Pat I fully believe the war was unnecessary and an absurdly counterproductive and irresponsible waste of military resources and political capital. That said, for a few years now, I've been waiting for the point to arrive where I would decide there is nothing left to do but pull out. But the fact that we were wrong to break it doesn't relieve us of our responsibility there. Much of the place is a disaster but as far as I can tell it does appear that more Iraqis prefer we stay for now. If that's the case, in my opinion we owe them that for the time being.

Hilzoy @ Obsidian Wings (c/o Daily Dish)
I listened to some of the all-night debate about Iraq. For some reason, whenever I turned on CSPAN, Republicans were speaking, and they talked about a whole range of horrors that would happen if we withdraw. Some seem to me less likely: I think there's a good chance that al Qaeda in Iraq will not gain a permanent base of operations within Iraq, at least not one that will outlast the chaos there. But others are quite likely. There will be horrific violence. Families will be driven into internal or external exile. Al Qaeda will claim victory. And there could well be a regional war.

I think about this, and about the absolutely puerile debate that preceded our decision whether to go to war, and I ask myself: how did it happen that everyone who actually predicted these sorts of consequences was successfully portrayed as a defeatist, a person who just didn't care about the children who died at Halabja or their parents who vanished into Abu Ghraib and were never heard from again, a wimp who preferred staying on the good side of the French (quel horreur!) to facing down bin Laden, or a traitor who must have secretly welcomed 9/11, if indeed s/he had noticed it at all?

The consequences Timothy Garton Ash describes -- or at least, consequences broadly like them -- were predictable at the time. Of course a war against Iran's deadliest enemy in the region would strengthen Iran, especially if it kept American troops pinned down within handy reach of Iranian operatives. Of course a democracy would be hard to build in Iraq, not because "Arabs are not suited for democracy", but because the habits of mind that constitute respect for the rule of law and a willingness to work within an established political system do not spring into being overnight after being crushed for decades. Of course this would play into bin Laden's hands, both by diverting resources and attention away from Afghanistan and by making the story he had been telling about America and its designs on the Muslim world come true.

So why were the people who warned us about this -- James Webb, Brent Scowcroft, and others -- at best ignored, and at worst mocked by people without a fraction either of their experience or of their judgment? Why did so many people choose to listen instead to the likes of Michael Ledeen and Jonah Goldberg?
 
222Perm Dude
ID: 5260229
Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 10:59
MITH: Many of us believe that the more responsible thing is to pull out. It is irresponsible to continue to stay there and inflame the passions by our occupation and killing Americans in the meantime.

And our responsiblity for the mess in the first place doesn't outweigh our responsibility to protect American interests by hunting down Osama and so on.

As far as Iraq is concerned, the only reason al Qaeda is there is because Americans are there. There is simply no way that al Qaeda will take over Iraq when we leave. The best way to weaken al Qaeda (if that is our goal) is to stop enabling and training them to fight.
 
223Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 11:36
Yeah I'm aware that I'm in the minority on the left re whether we should pull out of Iraq now. In fact I'm in the minority of all Americans, according to polls. But I do think we're now helping Iraqis more than we're hurting them.

And I don't believe dealing with our mess in Iraq precludes dealing with our al Qaeda mess. But currently Iraq is the mess that requires more resources (not more attention though). For the time being I think Musharraf should be given the opportunity to effectively step up measures in tribal Pakistan. I'll advocate resources currently dedicated Iraq to be redeployed in Pakistan if Musharraf continues to fail us.

And I'd support a draft if the mess we're in requires greater a greater response than we're currently capable of. I think we agree that a great failure (the great failure) of starting an unnecessary war in Iraq is that it left us completely unprepared to deal with other potential threats and attacks, if and when they occur. Post 9/11, that's an inexcusable disaster of a mistake.

But sending our military back into Pakistan runs a high risk of seeing Musharraf overthrown by elements which may greatly maginfy the some of threats America faces. Its not hard to imagine a violent coup followed by the new regime immediately declaring war on the US, something that may well require a draft to deal with, thanks to the depletion of our military at the hands of Bush's Iraq policy.

While Musharraf's overthrow may be an inevitability anyway, the longer we're able to stave it off, the longer we can continue to help Iraq and continue to prepare them for when the string will be cut. I believe our priority depends on what Musharraf can do. Or what he tries to do.
 
224Perm Dude
ID: 5260229
Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 12:03
I don't think we should avoid doing the right thing because of the possibility of problems down the line, particularly when not doing it (i.e., staying put in Iraq) is clearly the wrong thing to do.

Things need not be linked. The first things to do is plan for an orderly withdrawal from Iraq.

Unlike you, I wouldn't hold off going into the mountains of Pakistan (where there aren't any towns or people) to chase down bin Laden, especially since we have asked Pakistan to do so for four years and have received only half-assed help. There is plenty of evidence of Pakistan dragging their feet and even acting against our interests.

Maybe holding Musharraf to his promises is a bad thing. But there is a certainly element who believes, as bin Laden did, that America lacks the will to follow through on what they say, and if there is anything that emboldens our terrorist enemies more I don't know what it is.
 
225Taxman
ID: 96191121
Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 14:05
Did anyone catch Bill Mahre on HBO last night?

I can't quote, but, more or less he said in his commentary on the first (maybe only IMHO) great accomplishment during the Ronald Reagan administration occurred in 1983. That was the year that suicide bombers attacked the Marine barracks in Lebanon six months after a similar attack on the US Embassy. Reagan's response was to pull the troops...withdraw them back home.

A historical perspective is found:
http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/mehistorydatabase/civil_war_in_lebanon.php#embassy_bombing_april1983

"On April 18, 1983, a suicide bomber blew up a van killing 63 people at the United States embassy in Beirut." "On October 23, 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon was blown up by a suicide bomber driving a truck loaded with explosives. 241 Marines died." "On February 7, President Reagan ordered the withdrawal of Marine forces from Lebanon."

I conclude that Reagan was not controlled by the American war machine (Defense contracters & Military advisors). One notable difference in national leadership then was that Reagan faced a hostile (Democrat controlled) Congress in both houses (for both terms), contrary to W's first term experience.

Seems that balance and national harmony is enhanced somewhat when the Congress and the Executive branch are controlled by differing political ideology and parties. As a mostly lifelong (in Texas we call them "yellow dog")democrat, I don't remember those in disagreement with the executive branch described as un-American or traitors even in the Vietnam era as they have been/are under Bush/Cheney.
 
226Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 23:37
Great article from Peter Galbraith.

He concludes:

Lugar concluded his speech by urging that Americans "refocus our policy in Iraq on realistic assessments of what can be achieved, and on a sober review of our vital interests in the Middle East". After four years of a war driven more by wishful thinking than strategy, this is hardly a radical idea, but it has produced a barrage of covert criticism of Lugar from the Bush administration and overt attack from the neo-conservatives.

Lugar's focus on the achievable runs against main currents of opinion in a nation increasingly polarized between the growing number who want to withdraw from Iraq and the diehard defenders of a failure. We Americans need to recognize, as Lugar implicitly does, that Iraq no longer exists as a unified country. In the parts where we can accomplish nothing, we should withdraw. But there are still three missions that may be achievable - disrupting al-Qaeda, preserving Kurdistan's democracy, and limiting Iran's increasing domination. These can all be served by a modest US presence in Kurdistan.

 
227walk
ID: 75112114
Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 11:42
Yeah, I saw Bill Maher on Saturday night. I rarely miss any of his shows or stand-up's and saw him perform in NYC a couple of times. I always laugh so freakin hard...and a lot of what he says is right on (brother!).

- walk
 
228walk
ID: 2530286
Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 10:15
Gangs in American Military (in Iraq)

This is just...disturbing...
 
229walk
ID: 2530286
Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 10:16
July 29, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Who Really Took Over During That Colonoscopy
By FRANK RICH


THERE was, of course, gallows humor galore when Dick Cheney briefly grabbed the wheel of our listing ship of state during the presidential colonoscopy last weekend. Enjoy it while it lasts. A once-durable staple of 21st-century American humor is in its last throes. We have a new surrogate president now. Sic transit Cheney. Long live David Petraeus!

It was The Washington Post that first quantified General Petraeus’s remarkable ascension. President Bush, who mentioned his new Iraq commander’s name only six times as the surge rolled out in January, has cited him more than 150 times in public utterances since, including 53 in May alone.

As always with this White House’s propaganda offensives, the message in Mr. Bush’s relentless repetitions never varies. General Petraeus is the “main man.” He is the man who gives “candid advice.” Come September, he will be the man who will give the president and the country their orders about the war.

And so another constitutional principle can be added to the long list of those junked by this administration: the quaint notion that our uniformed officers are supposed to report to civilian leadership. In a de facto military coup, the commander in chief is now reporting to the commander in Iraq. We must “wait to see what David has to say,” Mr. Bush says.

Actually, we don’t have to wait. We already know what David will say. He gave it away to The Times of London last month, when he said that September “is a deadline for a report, not a deadline for a change in policy.” In other words: Damn the report (and that irrelevant Congress that will read it) — full speed ahead. There will be no change in policy. As Michael Gordon reported in The New York Times last week, General Petraeus has collaborated on a classified strategy document that will keep American troops in Iraq well into 2009 as we wait for the miracles that will somehow bring that country security and a functioning government.

Though General Petraeus wrote his 1987 Princeton doctoral dissertation on “The American Military and the Lessons of Vietnam,” he has an unshakable penchant for seeing light at the end of tunnels. It has been three Julys since he posed for the cover of Newsweek under the headline “Can This Man Save Iraq?” The magazine noted that the general’s pacification of Mosul was “a textbook case of doing counterinsurgency the right way.” Four months later, the police chief installed by General Petraeus defected to the insurgents, along with most of the Sunni members of the police force. Mosul, population 1.7 million, is now an insurgent stronghold, according to the Pentagon’s own June report.

By the time reality ambushed his textbook victory, the general had moved on to the mission of making Iraqi troops stand up so American troops could stand down. “Training is on track and increasing in capacity,” he wrote in The Washington Post in late September 2004, during the endgame of the American presidential election. He extolled the increased prowess of the Iraqi fighting forces and the rebuilding of their infrastructure.

The rest is tragic history. Were the Iraqi forces on the trajectory that General Petraeus asserted in his election-year pep talk, no “surge” would have been needed more than two years later. We would not be learning at this late date, as we did only when Gen. Peter Pace was pressed in a Pentagon briefing this month, that the number of Iraqi battalions operating independently is in fact falling — now standing at a mere six, down from 10 in March.

But even more revealing is what was happening at the time that General Petraeus disseminated his sunny 2004 prognosis. The best account is to be found in “The Occupation of Iraq,” the authoritative chronicle by Ali Allawi published this year by Yale University Press. Mr. Allawi is not some anti-American crank. He was the first civilian defense minister of postwar Iraq and has been an adviser to Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki; his book was praised by none other than the Iraq war cheerleader Fouad Ajami as “magnificent.”

Mr. Allawi writes that the embezzlement of the Iraqi Army’s $1.2 billion arms procurement budget was happening “under the very noses” of the Security Transition Command run by General Petraeus: “The saga of the grand theft of the Ministry of Defense perfectly illustrated the huge gap between the harsh realities on the ground and the Panglossian spin that permeated official pronouncements.” Mr. Allawi contrasts the “lyrical” Petraeus pronouncements in The Post with the harsh realities of the Iraqi forces’ inoperable helicopters, flimsy bulletproof vests and toy helmets. The huge sums that might have helped the Iraqis stand up were instead “handed over to unscrupulous adventurers and former pizza parlor operators.”

Well, anyone can make a mistake. And when General Petraeus cited soccer games as an example of “the astonishing signs of normalcy” in Baghdad last month, he could not have anticipated that car bombs would kill at least 50 Iraqis after the Iraqi team’s poignant victory in the Asian Cup semifinals last week. This general may well be, as many say, the brightest and bravest we have. But that doesn’t account for why he has been invested by the White House and its last-ditch apologists with such singular power over the war.

On “Meet the Press,” Lindsey Graham, one of the Senate’s last gung-ho war defenders in either party, mentioned General Petraeus 10 times in one segment, saying he would “not vote for anything” unless “General Petraeus passes on it.” Desperate hawks on the nation’s op-ed pages not only idolize the commander daily but denounce any critics of his strategy as deserters, defeatists and enemies of the troops.

That’s because the Petraeus phenomenon is not about protecting the troops or American interests but about protecting the president. For all Mr. Bush’s claims of seeking “candid” advice, he wants nothing of the kind. He sent that message before the war, with the shunting aside of Eric Shinseki, the general who dared tell Congress the simple truth that hundreds of thousands of American troops would be needed to secure Iraq. The message was sent again when John Abizaid and George Casey were supplanted after they disagreed with the surge.

Two weeks ago, in his continuing quest for “candid” views, Mr. Bush invited a claque consisting exclusively of conservative pundits to the White House and inadvertently revealed the real motive for the Petraeus surrogate presidency. “The most credible person in the fight at this moment is Gen. David Petraeus,” he said, in National Review’s account.

To be the “most credible” person in this war team means about as much as being the most sober tabloid starlet in the Paris-Lindsay cohort. But never mind. What Mr. Bush meant is that General Petraeus is famous for minding his press coverage, even to the point of congratulating the ABC News anchor Charles Gibson for “kicking some butt” in the Nielsen ratings when Mr. Gibson interviewed him last month. The president, whose 65 percent disapproval rating is now just one point shy of Richard Nixon’s pre-resignation nadir, is counting on General Petraeus to be the un-Shinseki and bestow whatever credibility he has upon White House policies and pronouncements.

He is delivering, heaven knows. Like Mr. Bush, he has taken to comparing the utter stalemate in the Iraqi Parliament to “our own debates at the birth of our nation,” as if the Hamilton-Jefferson disputes were akin to the Shiite-Sunni bloodletting. He is also starting to echo the administration line that Al Qaeda is the principal villain in Iraq, a departure from the more nuanced and realistic picture of the civil-war-torn battlefront he presented to Senate questioners in his confirmation hearings in January.

Mr. Bush has become so reckless in his own denials of reality that he seems to think he can get away with saying anything as long as he has his “main man” to front for him. The president now hammers in the false litany of a “merger” between Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda and what he calls “Al Qaeda in Iraq” as if he were following the Madison Avenue script declaring that “Cingular is now the new AT&T.” He doesn’t seem to know that nearly 40 other groups besides Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia have adopted Al Qaeda’s name or pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden worldwide since 2003, by the count of the former C.I.A. counterterrorism official Michael Scheuer. They may follow us here well before any insurgents in Iraq do.

On Tuesday — a week after the National Intelligence Estimate warned of the resurgence of bin Laden’s Qaeda in Pakistan — Mr. Bush gave a speech in which he continued to claim that “Al Qaeda in Iraq” makes Iraq the central front in the war on terror. He mentioned Al Qaeda 95 times but Pakistan and Pervez Musharraf not once. Two days later, his own top intelligence officials refused to endorse his premise when appearing before Congress. They are all too familiar with the threats that are building to a shrill pitch this summer.

Should those threats become a reality while America continues to be bogged down in Iraq, this much is certain: It will all be the fault of President Petraeus.
 
230Wilmer McLean
ID: 136282923
Mon, Jul 30, 2007, 04:05
A War We Just Might Win


July 30, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
By MICHAEL E. O’HANLON and KENNETH M. POLLACK
NY Times


Viewed from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration’s critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily “victory” but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated — many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

Everywhere, Army and Marine units were focused on securing the Iraqi population, working with Iraqi security units, creating new political and economic arrangements at the local level and providing basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people. Yet in each place, operations had been appropriately tailored to the specific needs of the community. As a result, civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began — though they remain very high, underscoring how much more still needs to be done.

In Ramadi, for example, we talked with an outstanding Marine captain whose company was living in harmony in a complex with a (largely Sunni) Iraqi police company and a (largely Shiite) Iraqi Army unit. He and his men had built an Arab-style living room, where he met with the local Sunni sheiks — all formerly allies of Al Qaeda and other jihadist groups — who were now competing to secure his friendship.

In Baghdad’s Ghazaliya neighborhood, which has seen some of the worst sectarian combat, we walked a street slowly coming back to life with stores and shoppers. The Sunni residents were unhappy with the nearby police checkpoint, where Shiite officers reportedly abused them, but they seemed genuinely happy with the American soldiers and a mostly Kurdish Iraqi Army company patrolling the street. The local Sunni militia even had agreed to confine itself to its compound once the Americans and Iraqi units arrived.

We traveled to the northern cities of Tal Afar and Mosul. This is an ethnically rich area, with large numbers of Sunni Arabs, Kurds and Turkmens. American troop levels in both cities now number only in the hundreds because the Iraqis have stepped up to the plate. Reliable police officers man the checkpoints in the cities, while Iraqi Army troops cover the countryside. A local mayor told us his greatest fear was an overly rapid American departure from Iraq. All across the country, the dependability of Iraqi security forces over the long term remains a major question mark.

But for now, things look much better than before. American advisers told us that many of the corrupt and sectarian Iraqi commanders who once infested the force have been removed. The American high command assesses that more than three-quarters of the Iraqi Army battalion commanders in Baghdad are now reliable partners (at least for as long as American forces remain in Iraq).

In addition, far more Iraqi units are well integrated in terms of ethnicity and religion. The Iraqi Army’s highly effective Third Infantry Division started out as overwhelmingly Kurdish in 2005. Today, it is 45 percent Shiite, 28 percent Kurdish, and 27 percent Sunni Arab.

In the past, few Iraqi units could do more than provide a few “jundis” (soldiers) to put a thin Iraqi face on largely American operations. Today, in only a few sectors did we find American commanders complaining that their Iraqi formations were useless — something that was the rule, not the exception, on a previous trip to Iraq in late 2005.

The additional American military formations brought in as part of the surge, General Petraeus’s determination to hold areas until they are truly secure before redeploying units, and the increasing competence of the Iraqis has had another critical effect: no more whack-a-mole, with insurgents popping back up after the Americans leave.

In war, sometimes it’s important to pick the right adversary, and in Iraq we seem to have done so. A major factor in the sudden change in American fortunes has been the outpouring of popular animus against Al Qaeda and other Salafist groups, as well as (to a lesser extent) against Moktada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.

These groups have tried to impose Shariah law, brutalized average Iraqis to keep them in line, killed important local leaders and seized young women to marry off to their loyalists. The result has been that in the last six months Iraqis have begun to turn on the extremists and turn to the Americans for security and help. The most important and best-known example of this is in Anbar Province, which in less than six months has gone from the worst part of Iraq to the best (outside the Kurdish areas). Today the Sunni sheiks there are close to crippling Al Qaeda and its Salafist allies. Just a few months ago, American marines were fighting for every yard of Ramadi; last week we strolled down its streets without body armor.

Another surprise was how well the coalition’s new Embedded Provincial Reconstruction Teams are working. Wherever we found a fully staffed team, we also found local Iraqi leaders and businessmen cooperating with it to revive the local economy and build new political structures. Although much more needs to be done to create jobs, a new emphasis on microloans and small-scale projects was having some success where the previous aid programs often built white elephants.

In some places where we have failed to provide the civilian manpower to fill out the reconstruction teams, the surge has still allowed the military to fashion its own advisory groups from battalion, brigade and division staffs. We talked to dozens of military officers who before the war had known little about governance or business but were now ably immersing themselves in projects to provide the average Iraqi with a decent life.

Outside Baghdad, one of the biggest factors in the progress so far has been the efforts to decentralize power to the provinces and local governments. But more must be done. For example, the Iraqi National Police, which are controlled by the Interior Ministry, remain mostly a disaster. In response, many towns and neighborhoods are standing up local police forces, which generally prove more effective, less corrupt and less sectarian. The coalition has to force the warlords in Baghdad to allow the creation of neutral security forces beyond their control.

In the end, the situation in Iraq remains grave. In particular, we still face huge hurdles on the political front. Iraqi politicians of all stripes continue to dawdle and maneuver for position against one another when major steps towards reconciliation — or at least accommodation — are needed. This cannot continue indefinitely. Otherwise, once we begin to downsize, important communities may not feel committed to the status quo, and Iraqi security forces may splinter along ethnic and religious lines.

How much longer should American troops keep fighting and dying to build a new Iraq while Iraqi leaders fail to do their part? And how much longer can we wear down our forces in this mission? These haunting questions underscore the reality that the surge cannot go on forever. But there is enough good happening on the battlefields of Iraq today that Congress should plan on sustaining the effort at least into 2008.

Michael E. O’Hanlon is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Kenneth M. Pollack is the director of research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at Brookings.


 
231Perm Dude
ID: 156523010
Mon, Jul 30, 2007, 12:26
With electricity down to an hour or two a day in Baghdad by most on-the-ground accounts (in fact, the State Department stopped reporting the number of hours of electricity per-day in Baghdad, it got so bad) it is hard to take seriously someone who asserts that things are getting better and citing providing electricity as an example.

With a military movement of this sort, we should be surprised if there weren't pockets of great success--and those areas with large majorities of one group or another seem calmer (though whether because of general peacekeeping or the other group members in those areas were killed or moved away we don't know. Frankly, I don't think it matters). But in mixed areas (such as much of Baghdad) we aren't seeing much "success" at all.

How much longer should American troops keep fighting and dying to build a new Iraq while Iraqi leaders fail to do their part? And how much longer can we wear down our forces in this mission? These haunting questions underscore the reality that the surge cannot go on forever. But there is enough good happening on the battlefields of Iraq today that Congress should plan on sustaining the effort at least into 2008.

This is a red herring at the end. There is no real call to stop the effort before spring 2008. In fact, most of the debate centers around how soon after Spring 2008 we beging the drawdown to the regular troop levels.
 
232Perm Dude
ID: 156523010
Mon, Jul 30, 2007, 15:44
O'Hanlon on O'Hanlon.

The data from his organization seems at odds with his own op-ed.
 
233Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 00:01
OK, this is downright embarrassing, or at least should be.

Water taps run dry in Baghdad

Much of the Iraqi capital was without running water Thursday and had been for at least 24 hours, compounding the urban misery in a war zone and the blistering heat at the height of the Baghdad summer.

Residents and city officials said large sections in the west of the capital had been virtually dry for six days because the already strained electricity grid cannot provide sufficient power to run water purification and pumping stations.

Baghdad routinely suffers from periodic water outages, but this one is described by residents as one of the most extended and widespread in recent memory. The problem highlights the larger difficulties in a capital beset by violence, crumbling infrastructure, rampant crime and too little electricity to keep cool in the sweltering weather more than four years after the U.S.-led invasion.

Noah Miller, spokesman for the U.S. reconstruction program in Baghdad, said that water treatment plants were working "as far as we know."

"It could be a host of issues. ... And one of those may be leaky trunk lines. If there's not enough pressure to cancel out that leakage, that's when the water could fail to reach the household," Miller said.

He said that there had been a nationwide power blackout for a few hours Wednesday night that might be causing problems for all systems that depend on Iraq's already creaking electricity grid.

He blamed the outages on provinces north of Baghdad and in Basra in the far south where officials failed to cutback as required when they had taken their daily ration of electricity.

"It takes a long time to bring the power back up (to the grid's capacity and demand)," Miller said.


Just guessing, but I doubt that the largest, most expensive embassy in the history of mankind, built by illegal labor on 40 acres in the Green Zone, is experiencing any water or electricity outages.
Any talk of victory, or even any success of the "surge" is completely hallow when the residents of Baghdad are sweltering in 117 degree summer heat sans electricity and water.
But there is
good news.

While Congressional Budget Office reports showed a gloomy outlook for U.S. costs in Iraq, last week several of Washington's biggest defence contractors released profit reports disclosing huge growth in divisions benefiting from military contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Northrop Grumman's information and services, and electronics divisions showed 15 percent and 7 percent growth, respectively, for the second quarter compared to the same fiscal quarter last year.

General Dynamics' combat systems unit experienced a 19 percent growth in sales due to continued demand for tanks and armored vehicles while Lockheed Martin announced a 34 percent rise in profits to 778 million dollars.

Lockheed's newest revenue projections are now as high as 41.75 billion dollars.

"2008 [military related] appropriations are the highest it's ever been. 2007 was the highest before that. War spending continues to go on. In addition [contractors] are cashing in on increasing military budgets that have nothing to do with the war, such as the F-22 Raptor and large scale weapon systems," Miriam Pemberton, research fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies, told IPS.

"Not only has this recent quarter been profitable, they have now locked in spending that will keep those profits going," she said.

The increase in profits by defence contractors can be correlated to only a portion of the current and predicted spending associated with the war in Iraq.

The Congressional Budget Office's report estimated that medical costs will exceed 9 billion dollars if the U.S. stations 30,000 troops in Iraq, but could exceed 13 billion dollars if 75,000 troops remain in Iraq over the next several years.


Like I said - embarrassing.

 
234Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 09:26
come on PV, we're making progress.
 
235Perm Dude
ID: 3775538
Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 09:56
It is expected that the September report will indicate that the surge is working, regardless of what is actually happening on the ground. That's because Patreaus (despite being a very good soldier and general) is a lackey of the Administration.

One interesting twist was recently exhibited by Mitt Romney, who stated that "if the surge is working, let's get the hell out." Of course, a pro-surge and pro-withdrawal policy is something that only Romney might be able to pull off, but there is a perverse logic to it. Give the surgers what they want until the report, let them report their successes, then leverage those stated successes into a drawdown.
 
236Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Fri, Aug 03, 2007, 21:06
Is Bush listening?

DES MOINES – U.S. Senator Sam Brownback, Republican candidate for president, outlined a "diplomatic surge" for Iraq that would aim for long-term stability by creating a soft partition for the three major ethnic groups in Iraq, with Baghdad serving as the seat of a united federal government.

"We should implement a diplomatic surge that promotes a federal Iraq where Sunnis, Shi'a and Kurds manage their own affairs within a unified state," said Brownback. "If we do not embrace the goal of federalism in Iraq, we will find ourselves held hostage to the endless debates between Iraqi political parties that have occurred over the last two years. The three-state political solution could create the equilibrium and stability that is necessary to ensure that we do not have to return to Iraq."

Brownback said that history suggests that Iraq would be well-served by a federal system:

"The three-state political solution reflects the historical organization of the territory of Mesopotamia, acknowledges the demographic and cultural realities of modern day Iraq and would preserve the integrity and sovereignty of Iraq."

Brownback traveled to Iraq from January 9-10, 2007, and met with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, Kurdish regional President Massoud Barzani, U.S. Generals Raymond Odierno and George Casey, Jr., and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad.


Sounds reasonable. Why hasn't anyone brought this up before?
 
237Doug
ID: 113132214
Sat, Aug 04, 2007, 02:04
Actually, Joe Biden has been preaching this sort of "3-semi-autonomous regions under a loose federal goverment" sort of solution in very detailed terms for quite some time. He's articulated it not only in general speeches, but quite explicitly for a national audience during a couple of the Dem debates as well.
 
238Pancho Villa
ID: 2565398
Sat, Aug 04, 2007, 09:37
I should have put a smiley face after that last sentence for those who are not frequent visitors here. This thread details the Biden/Gelb proposal when it was first proposed last May.

However, Peter Galbraith has been a champion for self-determination for the Iraqi sects for many years.
 
239Doug
ID: 441251914
Sat, Aug 04, 2007, 10:56
Ah yes, visualizing an invisible smiling or winking face at the end of 236, I now revise my remarks in 237 to simply read "LOL!" :)
 
240Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Aug 05, 2007, 11:27
Military: Mastermind of Samarra mosque bombing killed

Coalition troops killed the al Qaeda terrorist who masterminded the February 2006 attack on Samarra's al-Askariya mosque and set off continuing violence and reprisal killings between Sunnis and Shiites, the U.S. military said Sunday.

 
241nerveclinic proxy
ID: 1277514
Sun, Aug 05, 2007, 15:07

PD Unlike you, I wouldn't hold off going into the mountains of Pakistan (where there aren't any towns or people) to chase down bin Laden, especially since we have asked Pakistan to do so for four years and have received only half-assed help. There is plenty of evidence of Pakistan dragging their feet and even acting against our interests.

At the risk of sounding confrontational, I think the above statement is both naive and dangerous.

While I am not going to defend the military dictatorship in Pakistan, to suggest they are "dragging their feet" is just an uniformed comment in my opinion.

We have lots of front page newspaper articles here about what is happening in Pakistan. I'm not talking mid east papers either I am talkng about papers with British money.

One read of the rotoguru Paki forum (Which I haven't looked at in 2 weeks) leads me to conclude you are not getting all the facts in the USA about what is going on there.

The Paki government is up to their necks in a fight with Al Quida backed extremists. The "dragging their feet" is less lack of will, then simply trying to walk a tight rope in a country with a strong extremist minority cloaked in religious robes that prevents the government from just marching in and mopping things up as you suggest they should do. Just like we are doing so well in Iraq right?

Last month, for a solid week, the front page story was about a stand off between the Paki govt. and an extremists faction (maybe 300 people) holed up in a mosque. This has been going on for 6 months (?) but finally came to a head a few weeks ago.

The group in the mosque had declared that they were setting up a separate government to go after "immoral" anti Muslim elements in the society. (Because they say the government wasn't doing enough)

They kidnapped Chinese women for engaging in prostitution. (This is one example.)

The official story is that 2 weeks ago as police were stationed outside the mosque they were attacked, 4 police killed, and their weapons stolen.

That was enough, Musharraf sent in troops, for a week there were battles and he eventually attacked the mosque now that he had the deaths of the soldiers as an excuse.

To suggest that Musharraf is dragging his feet because he has any sympathy for our extremist enemies is in my opinion "ill informed".

I haven't read it in a week or so but I was amused the Paki thread made no mention of these intense events at the time they were occurring even while they were on the front page of the newspapers here.

All newspaper comments here took a stance in support of Musharraf attacking the mosque as the extremists had gone to far.

I was riding in a taxi with a Paki, Muslim driver. He saw me holding the paper with the story and this Muslim said it's time for the government to go into the mosque and end this...I'm a Muslim he said, and what these people are doing is not what our religion teaches. "it's time to take care of them."

No Pakistan does not want the US invading their country. Even those who are against the extremist don't want this so he has to walk this political tight rope. Or should he just allow his country to become another Iraq or Afghanistan?

PD your suggestion for us to go in and unilaterally invade Pakistan is to me, naive, ill informed, and obviously to the right of George Bush. Surprising coming from someone who takes a stand as a moderate.

If we can't defeat AL Quida in Iraq, with the most sophisticated military in the world,why do you criticize Musharraf for dragging his feet?

Again NOT defending a military dictatorship, but it's clear to me we share mutual enemies in his country and any "dragging of the fight" isn't due to sympathy for the devil.

I forgive the naivety because I do understand that you are reading incomplete facts in the US papers.

 
242Perm Dude
ID: 5875248
Sun, Aug 05, 2007, 15:19
That "tightrope," from our perspective, takes the form of the Pakistani government saying they will do something and then failing to do it.

My suggestion isn't to put aside the Pakistani's real problems. But those are their problems. Ours is that al-Qaeda has a save haven in the hills of Pakistan and that they are growing stronger.

It's not that I'm being "naive." It is just that I don't care as much about the Pakistani excuse of why they are not doing what they said they would do. Keep in mind that we are not asking them to do anything that they said they would not do. We didn't force this onto them. It is a stated goal of theirs to root out the al-Qaeda camps within the borders of their own country.

If the "tightrope," from our perspective, is to tell us they will do something and then not do it because of internal problems, well, why, exactly, should we care? Our problem is al-Qaeda-you are essentially saying that we should not go after al-Qaeda because, well, the Pakistanis have problems going after them.

Too bad. It isn't "naive" to not let Pakistani's excuses overcome our own needs. And surely you aren't so bereft of sense as to allow British papers to make you believe that going into the remote hills of Pakistan to get Bin Laden and bring him to justice is the same as overthrowing the government of Iraq, disbanding their army, and occupying the country while a civil war rages?

Just because Bush was and is stupid doesn't mean we should lack the courage to do the right thing. And sometimes the right thing means calling our allies to task on their obligations.
 
243nerveclinic proxy
ID: 67161
Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 02:01

PD That "tightrope," from our perspective, takes the form of the Pakistani government saying they will do something and then failing to do it.

Have you noticed we haven't come close to accomplishing what we said we would do in Iraq? Is it possible Pakistan doesn't want to make the same mistake with far less resources?

Ours is that al-Qaeda has a save haven in the hills of Pakistan and that they are growing stronger.

They also have a haven in Iraq and Afghanistan and we haven't solved those fronts yet. Now you want to invade a third country that is an ally against their wishes? How would the world react to that PD?

It is just that I don't care as much about the Pakistani excuse of why they are not doing what they said they would do. Keep in mind that we are not asking them to do anything that they said they would not do. We didn't force this onto them. It is a stated goal of theirs to root out the al-Qaeda camps within the borders of their own country.

And they are doing it where they can PD. Unfortunately I can't link to stories with my proxy, but do a Google search of "Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) ".

They attacked a mosque with troops just a few weeks ago, scores of extremists were killed. You don't know about it because I have to assume it didn't make the US press. Please just read a couple of links if you want to see that they are doing exactly what you are accusing them of "not" doing. The are going after extremists.

It's nice that you think it's so easy for them to send troops to fight Al Quida in a part of the country where they are not welcome, with a rag tag army. An area with rugged, difficult terrain that Al Quida is used to fighting in. A section of the country were there are Al Quida sympathizers unlike most Paki's who do not support them.

The Soviets couldn't beat Al Quida in Afghanistan, we can't stop them in Iraq, why do you make it sound like Musharraf should risk civil war in a battle he may feel like he can't win at the moment.

Our problem is al-Qaeda-you are essentially saying that we should not go after al-Qaeda because, well, the Pakistanis have problems going after them.

No, they have problems with us invading their country.

PD maybe you haven't noticed. We are going after them in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are bogged down in a mess that is bankrupting our country. We aren't winning PD, I am suggesting it wouldn't be any easier in Pakistan. Now you are also suggesting we invade a third country without their permission, who hasn't done anything to us and is in fact an ally. Dr Strangelove is a fair characterization of this idea.

What if they slip into Iran or India after we attack...would you just keep moving troops into the next country?

And surely you aren't so bereft of sense as to allow British papers to make you believe that going into the remote hills of Pakistan to get Bin Laden and bring him to justice is the same as overthrowing the government of Iraq, disbanding their army, and occupying the country while a civil war rages?

The British papers weren't discussing this subject so your paragraph doesn't apply.

Any intelligent human can see that it wouldn't be as simple as you make it sound. We would likely be bogged down on a third front for years. It's difficult terrain (Vietnam) The soviets fought them for years and lost, there are civilian areas they move in and out of that have their sympathy (Though this attitude is an anomoly in Pakistan)

How long have you wanted to invade Pakistan PD? Or does it correspond to a Democrat making the suggestion?

The British papers were in reference to Musharraf attacking the Lal Masjid (Red Mosque which is full of extremists.) It takes a lot to attack a mosque and kill it's occupants in a Muslim country but that's exactly what he did a few weeks ago.

He attacked extremists, something you said he hasn't done. It's because you don't know because our press isn't mentioning it. Again it was front page headlines here for a week and even in the Muslim papers they supported the attack.

Just because Bush was and is stupid doesn't mean we should lack the courage to do the right thing. And sometimes the right thing means calling our allies to task on their obligations.

Wow you make it sound so easy PD. Let's just invade a third country, that will solve all our problems. You are to the right of Dick Cheney on this one.

Sorry but I think there is a lot in your post that leads me to believe you are missing a great deal of insight into the situation in Pakistan. You seem to imply they aren't going after extremists. A quick look at a couple of the google links will show you they are not only doing it, they attacked a mosque to do it...

I also find your suggestion of how easy it would be again as I said before naive at best.

It would be another big, fat mess. It would again make us look like aggressors in the world eyes, this time against a country that has done nothing to us.

The world is tired of American adventuresome. Your plan would set us even further back in world opinion then the muck we are already bathing in.




 
244Perm Dude
ID: 137268
Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 09:20
We are going after them in Iraq and Afghanistan

This is completely untrue. The problem with Afghanistan is that we aren't going after them. We have left the job half-done, and let the Taliban back in. And there were no al-Qaeda in Iraq before we moved in.

I really don't need a lecture about Pakistan news. I certainly know about the Red Mosque (the problem with the Red Mosque is that they're dealing with Waco-style people who simply won't negotiate). If you genuinely can't see the difference between going into otherwise uninhabited mountains of Pakistan to root out terrorists we know are there in order to bring them to justice, and invading countries in order to overturn their governments, well, your usual ability of discernment seems to have abandoned you, nerve.

I also find your suggestion of how easy it would be again as I said before naive at best.

Where, exactly, did I say it was easy? I find your ability to make up my argument while abandoning my actual words a little silly. The only thing in my mind that is easy is the decision of whether to do it or not.

While I admire your international perspective (really, I do), we know who the people are that attacked us on 9/11. We know where they are in the world, and we have been waiting, for years, for Pakistan to follow through on their committment to root them out. The problem here is that Pakistan says "I can do it, I can do it. No help needed!" but they do not get it done. The important thing is not the excuses (many quite reasonable) why Pakistan cannot do it by themselves, but that the job doesn't get done at all.

This current stupid president, with his lies and stupid, stupid advisors, shouldn't be used as an excuse doing the right thing.

While the ability to pull it off is more difficult each month the terrorists (and make no mistake, that's what they are) dig in, if world opinion believes we should not go after terrorists of this sort when these facts are know, screw them. At no point does world opinion change the facts, and the right thing to do become the wrong thing. Let the truth be known and people unafraid of the truth with come around.

This is something which should be planned together with Pakistan. But do it alone if we have to.
 
245nerveclinic proxy
ID: 26747613
Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 14:47

So PD I just want to be completely clear about your position here.

Yes or no.

Are you suggesting we have reached a point where, if Pakistan says they are not able to root out Al Quid forces, and they also say we are not giving you permission to enter our country with your military, that we should unilaterally invade Pakistan against their wishes and open a third front?

That's a yes or no question.

 
246nerveclinic proxy
ID: 16758613
Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 14:58

I really don't need a lecture about Pakistan news. I certainly know about the Red Mosque (the problem with the Red Mosque is that they're dealing with Waco-style people who simply won't negotiate)

Why wouldn't I lecture PD? It's an incredulous observation on my part that you and others are participating in a Paki thread, and the red mosque was not referenced even once.

How do I know you are up to date about it if you choose to completely ignore any mention of a very serious incident involving the Pakistan government attacking and killing 75 extremist muslims in the same thread where you imply the paki government doesn't have the will to go after Muslim extremists?

If you choose to ignore this important event, which was at least on the level of Waco, if not more significant, in a thread about Pakistans commitment to fighting extremists...well why would you not expect a lecture???

 
247Perm Dude
ID: 137268
Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 21:22
Well, maybe you are right. My recollection is that I spent much of that thread lately rebutting Baldwin's assertion that Pakistan's hostility toward India was lately manufactured. And that they have undermined efforts at stabilizing Afghanistan from a return by the Taliban.

Again, however, you seem to be taking me to task for keeping the US' interests first.
 
248Doug
ID: 422281412
Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 21:25
I think there's a distinction to be made between "invading a country" a la Iraq, and they type of action being discussed in the sparsely populated northern mountainous regions of Pakistan. Technically if you're on someone's soil it can be considered an invasion, but no sane person would deny the difference between, for example, some Canadian mounties heading across the border into the tundra of Alaska to pursue some poachers versus their troops parachuting into upstate New York while several armored brigades rolled into Buffalo. (Does the Canadian military even have tanks anyway?)

Yes, the example is a bit silly, but I think you take my point... some Special Forces rooting around caves in sparsely populated mountainous region is hardly what most people think of when they hear the word "invasion". Of course, even though there clearly is a difference in scope, in many respects the political rhetoric surrounding a potential US operation in the northern mountains of Pakistan would likely be portrayed it (in Pakistani media) as a "US Invasion". The fallout of that is a reality that we (and obviously the Musharraf government) would need to deal with. Even if that representation of events is a mischaracterization, it would nonetheless be technically true, and more importantly is likely how it would be portrayed and perceived by the average Paki.

Nevertheless, when we sit here and enjoy the luxury of discussing these questions and issues openly without it directly affecting our day-to-day lives (at least, for most of us), then I think it's important that we be very clear exactly what sort of operations we are talking about when we discuss "invading" another country.

For example, saying we should send troops into the northern mountains is not the same as saying we should roll into Pakistani cities and attempt to rebuild their government, etc. Even dropping a precision munition on a cave entrance could be interpreted as an "invasion", depending who you talk to and how semantic they want to be.

So let's get a little bit more specific about what sorts of policies and actions we do or don't endorse.

Personally, I currently support the idea of actively eliminating the Al-Qaeda leadership, particularly anyone who is known to have contributed to the planning 9/11 attacks, or who is known to be actively planning similar future terrorist strikes on US soil. We should cooperate as much as possible with foreign governments in pursing this. However, if we have "actionable intelligence" on the whereabouts of such targets, and the government of that nation fails/refuses to act, then I have no qualms about US dropping some precision bombs (particularly in the desolate limited-civilian type of areas such as those in northern Pakistan). I'd probably also support sending in a contingent of up to a few hundred special forces if that was deemed the most appropriate and effective means to eliminate the target, even against the Pakistani government's wishes. This is in the context of a very specific operation... go in, eliminate target, return to Afghanistan. Something that might take a week or two, most of which time would likely be the "moving into position" and "returning across the border". I'm not talking about something where we anticipate any sort of extended engagement.

Now, if we're talking about an operation to clear out a cave network that would require thousands of troops occupying the area for months on end... that's more of an "invasion" (even if only a limited, small scale one)... and that's something I'm not immediately "on board" with if the Pakistani governement opposes it... but then they need to very clearly spell out what they're doing about it, and when they will act. Not, "it's our problem, we'll deal with it in our time, and do it our way." Not good enough. It's our problem too.

When you get into these specifics, I think it's critical that in making these sorts of decisions that our leaders weigh all the relevant factors... the likelihood of success, the importance of the targets, the risk of failure, the impact on the foreign government and their hostility (or the people's hostility) towards the US, and so on. I'm not a foreign relations nor a military expert so I'm sure there are many other considerations which I am omitting... but my point is I think we do need to base our decision on a comprehensive evaluation of all the military and diplomatic pros and cons. But I've described a decent outline (in the preceding paragraph) of what sorts of actions seem reasonable to me (as a relatively-average US citizen) at this point. I'm open to arguments that more aggressive action is needed. I'm open to arguments that the stance I espouse is too aggressive already. But that's where I'm at right now, with the information I have. No, I don't know all the ins and outs of what's going on in Pakistan, nor do I expect to, but I do expect our leaders to consider the ramifications for Pakistan... and to possibly act despite these considerations at times. Otherwise, you aren't "considering" the situation of the Pakistani goverment, you're subverting yourself to it, and IMHO we can't allow ourselves to be put 100% at their mercy.

It also seems reasonable that if the Musharref government really is working "with" us, and we have actionable intelligence that they are unable/unwilling to act upon themselves, that they would be willing to cooperate by allowing us to act and attempting to keep the operation as covert as possible... they wouldn't go alerting their media and making a big indignant hubbub over it. Similarly, we (the US) would need to pledge to not make a PR spectacle out of a successful operation that would embarrass their leaders.
 
250Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 23:40
We already know what kind of response we can expect from Pakistan based on the unsuccessful bombing raid to Kill AQ #2 Zawahiri in January, 2006.

Thousands of people turned out in cities across the country Sunday to demonstrate against Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf and the United States in the wake of a U.S. airstrike that killed 18 people on Friday, as Pakistani parties called for more demonstrations.

Gatherings were taking place in cities including Lahore, Islamabad, Peshawar and Karachi and were set to continue all day.

Pakistan's foreign ministry has protested to the United States over an airstrike on a remote village near the Afghan border that killed 18 people but apparently missed its target, Osama bin Laden's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahiri.


Now, had the operation been successful, the headlines would have been completely different and likely not to have fanned the flames of nationalism within average Pakistanis who read that America is bombing and killing Pakistani women and children.

Adding to the embarrassment, was the following spin:
U.S. counterterrorism officials say al Qaeda's chemical weapons expert was "in the vicinity" when CIA airstrikes last week hit a dinner gathering believed to include terrorists in a Pakistani mountain village.
link

Sorry, but if you're going to go bombing a sovereign country, much less an alleged ally, you better make damn certain you're going to get the intended high profile target.
The CIA has about 17,000 employees and an annual budget of roughly $45 billion dollars. This doesn't count the intelligence budgets of the different military branches. I think it would be safe to say that the Al Qaeda hierarchy would be one of the top imperatives of our intelligence community. That said, can we really afford embarrassing incidents like the one where we kill 18 Pakistani civilians? Do we really care if there were terrorists in the vicinity? Is this what we get $45 billion a year?
We don't know, because the CIA budget isn't open to Congressional approval or scrutiny, which may be a good thing. We should expect a higher level of competency from such extravagance, though.
 
251Perm Dude
      ID: 137268
      Mon, Aug 06, 2007, 23:56
CIA budget isn't open to Congressional approval or scrutiny

Actually it is, through the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (and probably the combined Congressional intelligence committee, made up of members of both the House & Senate intelligence committees). But the details (even the totals) are not given out, which IMO and others--probably yours as well--is unconstitutional.

You're pretty much right on target, however. I think we'll need (note: buzzword of the day coming) actionalble intelligence before we do anything. And first a strong attempt to get Pakistan to do the deed first. Or their approval if they cannot.

The beauty of where Al-Qaeda is now, is that there really aren't any population centers nearby.
 
252Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 08:15
The beauty of where Al-Qaeda is now

It's a loose network. But now when Dems wanna pose as macho and effective Al Qeada hunters for the benefit of a presidential election Al Qeada can be located and bombed.

How is PD ever gonna get the Move On folks to pose in the criss-crossed bandolieros for the group photo?
 
253Perm Dude
      ID: 1871978
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 09:25
ROFL! Blaming Democrats for "posing" about Al-Qaeda in Pakistan!

What's next: Dems taking away our civil liberties by spying on Americans! Dems inflating the size of the budget to never-seen sizes! Dems giving government employees political pep-talks to get their candidates support during elections!
Dems Adminstration officials lying to Congress over and over!

Here's a hint, Baldwin: You'd look a lot less silly if you didn't take actual Republican shortcomings and try to pin them on Democrats you were happy to see have absolutely no political power while Republicans were free to put through the many policies we now clearly see are disastrous.
 
254Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 09:38
It's a loose network. But now when Dems wanna pose as macho and effective Al Qeada hunters for the benefit of a presidential election Al Qeada can be located and bombed.

You aren't this stupid.
 
255Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 09:45
I'm not stupid at all and you well know it.

The presidential election is the entire reason this meme has been generated by a Dem think tank.
 
256Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 09:55
Well there you go claiming to read minds again. And pretending, no less, that Iraq War detractors haven't been screaming from the tops of their lungs for 5 years that we are concentrated in the wrong part of the region.
 
257Perm Dude
      ID: 1871978
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 09:59
So now it is some nameless "think tank" coming up with this? Can't even think that someone like Obama came up with this on his own?

I, for one, don't think you are stupid. I think you wear your cynicism like a badge of honor, even to the point of waving aside reality. When it comes down to in, conflicts between your pride-base cynicism and reality are always settled by cynicism (this is, after all, politics).
 
258Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 10:17
So now it is some nameless "think tank" coming up with this?

I think PD had his nose firmly in the center of the zeitgeist jet stream when he was the first to bring up the Carnegie think tank's study accusing Musharif [and by extention Bush] of failing to chase OBL and company in western Pakistan.

And pretending, no less, that Iraq War detractors haven't been screaming from the tops of their lungs for 5 years that we are concentrated in the wrong part of the region.

They haven't been pointing anywhere but home while chanting 'quagmire'.
 
259Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 10:50
And pretending, no less, that Iraq War detractors haven't been screaming from the tops of their lungs for 5 years that we are concentrated in the wrong part of the region.

They haven't been pointing anywhere but home while chanting 'quagmire'


that's a flat out lie.

Before the war even started, we were saying it was the wrong place. In fact, there was even dissension between folks on the left as some felt it was ok to wage war against Al-Queda, but not against Iraq; while others felt it was not acceptable to wage any war.

there were several threads back prior to, and at the beginning of, where this was discussed.

 
260Perm Dude
      ID: 1871978
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 11:30
Baldwin: Perhaps your confusion stems from only getting your Democratic news here. If you believe that the Carnegie study is the first place that Democrats have put forth an aggressive strategy about Pakistan, well, you are even more narrowly-read than I thought.

Even if you get your Democratic news only here, I personally was advocating the same postiion as Obama on Pakistan last year in this very forum a year ago. If you believe I'm part of the "zeitgeist" this doesn't match your other assertion that the "think tank" came up with the meme so Democrats can start parroting the lines. So, pick a wacko position and stick with it.

I see, however, that you've shifted from attacking the points of the study, to calling them a "think tank" and saying that the Dems are now posing. In "baldwinese" we can take that as agreeing with the facts of the study but continuing to attack Democrats in some way.

Somewhat pathetic, if you ask me.
 
262Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:09
They haven't been pointing anywhere but home while chanting 'quagmire'.

Apparently you are this stupid, at least today you are.

I assume this is the Carnegie report you refer to. It was released last month.

5.23.07 - Statement from Harry Reid:
“Recently [February, for the record - mith], the Director of National Intelligence told Congress that the next Al Qaeda attack on the United States ‘most likely would be planned and come out of the [Al Qaeda] leadership in Pakistan.’ More than five years after 9/11, it is disappointing that the Bush Administration has failed to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and Ayman Zawahari, failed to prevent new Al Qaeda cells from emerging in dozens of countries, and failed to win the hearts and minds of millions around the world. It is time for a new, more effective strategy, and Democrats are determined to see that change occurs.”
9.29.06 - Howard Dean:
"Here's their record," he said. "Five years after Osama bin Laden murdered 3,000 people, he's still on the loose in northwest Pakistan plotting to kill our people.
8.16.06:
Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean said to a group in Washington, “Osama bin Laden is still running around in northwest Pakistan, evidently able to convince people they ought to blow up American airplanes. And we are bogged down spending half a trillion dollars in Iraq, which could be used to do the things the Democratic Party and the 9/11 Commission recommended, which is to make our airports, our nuclear power plants and our train stations safe here at home."
4.23.06
Rep. Jane Harman, a California Democrat, told Fox, "the tape reminds us that four years after 9/11, Osama bin Laden is still at large, the subject of the largest manhunt in history, and we haven't been able to find him. Part of the reason is because we've been bogged down in Iraq."

Harman, the ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, said it's also a reminder that al Qaeda and "copycat organizations" present threats around the world.

"Our challenge is to project America in such a way that we diminish this call to arms," she said. "Our values have to be out there. We have to govern by the rule of law. We can't send messages that make us look as bad as those who would attack us."

But don’t fret, Baldwin. We know it’s very difficult to distance yourself from Bush while at the same time trying to find creative ways to pin his foreign policy shortcomings on the Democrats. Especially when you can’t even believe Bush’s own words on exactly what his foreign policy actually is.

Media Matters:
From a 9/15/06 Rose Garden presser:
Q Thank you, Mr. President. Earlier this week, you told a group of journalists that you thought the idea of sending special forces to Pakistan to hunt down bin Laden was a strategy that would not work.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

Q Now, recently you've also --

THE PRESIDENT: Because, first of all, Pakistan is a sovereign nation.

Q Well, recently you've also described bin Laden as a sort of modern day Hitler or Mussolini. And I'm wondering why, if you can explain why you think it's a bad idea to send more resources to hunt down bin Laden, wherever he is?

THE PRESIDENT: We are, Richard. Thank you. Thanks for asking the question. They were asking me about somebody's report, well, special forces here -- Pakistan -- if he is in Pakistan, as this person thought he might be, who is asking the question -- Pakistan is a sovereign nation. In order for us to send thousands of troops into a sovereign nation, we've got to be invited by the government of Pakistan.
From CNN's American Morning 9/21/06:

O'BRIEN: How far would the U.S. go to capture Osama bin Laden? In an exclusive interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, President Bush says he would order American troops into Pakistan to get bin Laden, despite opposition from Pakistan's government.
[begin video clip]
BLITZER: If you had good, actionable intelligence in Pakistan -- where they were -- would you give the order to kill them or capture them?
BUSH: Absolutely.
BLITZER: And go into Pakistan?
BUSH: Absolutely.
BLITZER: Even though the Pakistanis say that's their sovereign territory?
BUSH: Absolutely. We would -- we would take the action necessary to bring him to justice.
 
263biliruben
      ID: 35112816
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:25


Toles rocks.
 
264sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:28
I like the lil "footnote" in the lower right corner the best. :)
 
265biliruben
      ID: 35112816
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:34
Is Baldwin living in the same country as the rest of us?

Meme? Election year politics?

2004 election maybe. This idea that maybe Iraq was not the place to attack, and that we might consider going forth to find our actual target is not a new one. Even members of the moronosphere such as myself have been saying this for 4 or 5 years.
 
266Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:41
Yeah I could easily have gone back to '04 and before with Kerry's Torra Borra and other related points (which of course were denied by Bush and thouroughly mocked at the time) but I figured B would have disregarded them as election politics as well.
 
267walk
      ID: 596182512
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:52
LOL! "the moronosphere."
 
268walk
      ID: 596182512
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:56
Even Newt says War on Terror = Phony
 
269walk
      ID: 596182512
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 12:59
From the Newt article:

"I believe we need to find leaders who are prepared to tell the truth ... about the failures of the performance of Republicans ... failed bureaucracies ... about how dangerous the world is," he said when asked what kind of Republican he would back for president."
 
270Baldwin
      ID: 125312919
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 13:06
PD

Exactly what you can take away from my discussion of the Carnegie think tank is that the term 'think tank' provides them unearned praise.
 
271Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 13:13
five years after the original post, i found this thread quite an interesting and entertaining read...
 
272Perm Dude
      ID: 1871978
      Tue, Aug 07, 2007, 13:22
Yes, Baldwin, the fact that you are using the term "think tank" in a disparaging way was clear to me.
 
273walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 19:40
1994 Video of Cheney Saying Iraqi Invasion = Quagmire

Too much...
 
274Perm Dude
      ID: 337121310
      Mon, Aug 13, 2007, 20:30
That's a good one, that's for sure.

Cheney is exactly right in that video. What else I like is that he was succinct, he looked at the interviewer, and he wasn't mean or mean-looking. Strange what a few years will do to a guy.
 
275Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Aug 16, 2007, 10:26
Soldier Suicide rate highest in a quarter-century...

Failed personal relationships, legal and financial problems and the stress of their jobs were factors motivating the soldiers to commit suicide, according to the report. It also found a significant relationship between suicide attempts and the number of days deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan or nearby countries where troops were participating in the war effort.
 
276Perm Dude
      ID: 35738179
      Fri, Aug 17, 2007, 14:48
"Don't bother trying to spot the Sunni..."

Great caption.

This thing is only going to get worse. An "emergency session" to get all parties together that has no Sunni representation means that the Iraqi government might start leaning more and more toward Iran, who is in no shape to prop up their own government, let along Iraq's.
 
277sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Aug 18, 2007, 15:17
A somewhat more obscure cost of the war in Iraq:

Munitions shortages hurting Police Departments
 
278Perm Dude
      ID: 22740208
      Mon, Aug 20, 2007, 19:48
Seven returning soliders from the 82nd Airborne tell it like it is
 
279Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Aug 24, 2007, 13:08
 
280sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Aug 25, 2007, 12:22
It doesnt pay to "blow the whistle" with this Administration in charge
 
281walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 09:54
Surge View
 
282walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 09:56
September 3, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Snow Job in the Desert
By PAUL KRUGMAN


In February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell, addressing the United Nations Security Council, claimed to have proof that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He did not, in fact, present any actual evidence, just pictures of buildings with big arrows pointing at them saying things like “Chemical Munitions Bunker.” But many people in the political and media establishments swooned: they admired Mr. Powell, and because he said it, they believed it.

Mr. Powell’s masters got the war they wanted, and it soon became apparent that none of his assertions had been true.

Until recently I assumed that the failure to find W.M.D., followed by years of false claims of progress in Iraq, would make a repeat of the snow job that sold the war impossible. But I was wrong. The administration, this time relying on Gen. David Petraeus to play the Colin Powell role, has had remarkable success creating the perception that the “surge” is succeeding, even though there’s not a shred of verifiable evidence to suggest that it is.

Thus Kenneth Pollack of the Brookings Institution — the author of “The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq” — and his colleague Michael O’Hanlon, another longtime war booster, returned from a Pentagon-guided tour of Iraq and declared that the surge was working. They received enormous media coverage; most of that coverage accepted their ludicrous self-description as critics of the war who have been convinced by new evidence.

A third participant in the same tour, Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, reported that unlike his traveling companions, he saw little change in the Iraq situation and “did not see success for the strategy that President Bush announced in January.” But neither his dissent nor a courageous rebuttal of Mr. O’Hanlon and Mr. Pollack by seven soldiers actually serving in Iraq, published in The New York Times, received much media attention.

Meanwhile, many news organizations have come out with misleading reports suggesting a sharp drop in U.S. casualties. The reality is that this year, as in previous years, there have been month-to-month fluctuations that tell us little: for example, July 2006 was a low-casualty month, with only 43 U.S. military fatalities, but it was also a month in which the Iraqi situation continued to deteriorate. And so far, every month of 2007 has seen more U.S. military fatalities than the same month in 2006.

What about civilian casualties? The Pentagon says they’re down, but it has neither released its numbers nor explained how they’re calculated. According to a draft report from the Government Accountability Office, which was leaked to the press because officials were afraid the office would be pressured into changing the report’s conclusions, U.S. government agencies “differ” on whether sectarian violence has been reduced. And independent attempts by news agencies to estimate civilian deaths from news reports, hospital records and other sources have not found any significant decline.

Now, there are parts of Baghdad where civilian deaths probably have fallen — but that’s not necessarily good news. “Some military officers,” reports Leila Fadel of McClatchy, “believe that it may be an indication that ethnic cleansing has been completed in many neighborhoods and that there aren’t as many people to kill.”

Above all, we should remember that the whole point of the surge was to create space for political progress in Iraq. And neither that leaked G.A.O. report nor the recent National Intelligence Estimate found any political progress worth mentioning. There has been no hint of sectarian reconciliation, and the Iraqi government, according to yet another leaked U.S. government report, is completely riddled with corruption.

But, say the usual suspects, General Petraeus is a fine, upstanding officer who wouldn’t participate in a campaign of deception — apparently forgetting that they said the same thing about Mr. Powell.

First of all, General Petraeus is now identified with the surge; if it fails, he fails. He has every incentive to find a way to keep it going, in the hope that somehow he can pull off something he can call success.

And General Petraeus’s history also suggests that he is much more of a political, and indeed partisan, animal than his press would have you believe. In particular, six weeks before the 2004 presidential election, General Petraeus published an op-ed article in The Washington Post in which he claimed — wrongly, of course — that there had been “tangible progress” in Iraq, and that “momentum has gathered in recent months.”

Is it normal for serving military officers to publish articles just before an election that clearly help an incumbent’s campaign? I don’t think so.

So here we go again. It appears that many influential people in this country have learned nothing from the last five years. And those who cannot learn from history are, indeed, doomed to repeat it.
 
283Perm Dude
      ID: 3587310
      Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 11:07
About time--we've had a fairly compliant Press giving the Administration a lot of free PR about the "success" of the surge.

Talking Points Memo has had a couple of good posts on this point:

Putting the surge numbers in context

Media once again enabling the Administration's PR
 
284Perm Dude
      ID: 3587310
      Mon, Sep 03, 2007, 14:03
One of the problems in the early parts of the Iraqi war was disbanding the Iraqi army. By allowing the only national force to disappear into the civil population with training, weapons, and tactical knowledge, we set the stage for much of the violent disunity that was to come.

Even The Decider realizes this was a mistake (and anytime Bush acknowledges a mistake, he should be encouraged. You can't fix problems if you don't admit they exist).

But hold your thanks: Bush doesn't know how the army came to be disbanded.

Oops.
 
285walk
      ID: 596182512
      Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 13:40
September 4, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
The State of Iraq: An Update
By JASON CAMPBELL, MICHAEL O'HANLON and AMY UNIKEWICZ


IN advance of the much-anticipated Congressional testimony next week of Ryan Crocker, the ambassador to Iraq, and Gen. David Petraeus, the top United States military commander, many have agreed on what appear to be two crucial realities in Iraq: there is military momentum for combined American-Iraqi forces and there is political paralysis in Baghdad. While the recent Government Accountability Office report on the 18 benchmarks set out by Congress in May gave a very pessimistic view, our data above, culled from official Iraqi and American sources and press reports, support a more mixed picture.

Unfortunately, at the moment the political paralysis seems to be a more powerful force than the military momentum, and progress in security is unsustainable without sectarian compromise among Iraq’s Kurds, Sunni Arabs and Shiites. The country remains very violent, and the economy rather stagnant.

Nonetheless, the military momentum appears real, despite the tragic multiple truck bombings in Ninevah Province on Aug. 14 that made that month the deadliest since winter. Overall, civilian fatality rates are down perhaps one third since late 2006, though they remain quite high. There are also signs that roughly six of Iraq’s 18 provinces are making significant economic and security gains, up from three a year ago. The story in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province is by now well known: attacks in the city of Ramadi are down 90 percent, and the economy is recovering. But there is progress in several regions with more complex sectarian mixes as well.

Given the continuing violence, and the absence of political progress, Iraq is not now on a trajectory toward sustainable stability — and America is not yet on a clear path to an exit strategy. With sectarian tensions so high, and hatreds so freshly stoked, Iraq’s own dynamics would probably lead to an accelerating civil war if left unchecked.

Jason Campbell is a senior research assistant at the Brookings Institution in Washington. Michael O’Hanlon is a senior fellow at Brookings. Amy Unikewicz is a graphic designer in South Norwalk, Conn.
 
286walk
      ID: 596182512
      Tue, Sep 04, 2007, 13:41
September 4, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Center First Gives Way to Center Last
By DAVID BROOKS


Have you noticed the change in the Iraq debate?

Most American experts and policy makers wasted the past few years assuming that change in Iraq would come from the center and spread outward. They squandered months arguing about the benchmarks that would supposedly induce the Baghdad politicians to make compromises. They quibbled over whether this or that prime minister was up to the job. They unrealistically imagined that peace would come through some grand Sunni-Shiite reconciliation.

Now, at long last, the smartest analysts and policy makers are starting to think like sociologists. They are finally acknowledging that the key Iraqi figures are not in the center but in the provinces and the tribes. Peace will come to the center last, not to the center first. Stability will come not through some grand reconciliation but through the agglomeration of order, tribe by tribe and street by street.

The big change in the debate has come about because the surge failed, and it failed in an unexpected way.

The original idea behind the surge was that U.S. troops would create enough calm to allow the national politicians to make compromises. The surge was intended to bolster the “modern” — meaning nonsectarian and nontribal — institutions in the country.

But the surge is failing, at least politically, because there are practically no nonsectarian institutions, and there are few nonsectarian leaders to create them. Security gains have not led to political gains.

At the same time, something unexpected happened. As Iraqi national politics stagnated, the tribes began to take the initiative. The process started in Anbar Province, when the local tribes revolted against Al Qaeda. It has continued in Diyala Province and even in Baghdad neighborhoods like Ameriya. In the South, moderate Shiite parties have begun to resist the Sadrists, while in many places local groups that look like mafia families struggle to impose order on their turf.

In other words, organic local actors — some thuggish, some not — have begun to impose a security structure on parts of the country. Some are independent, some require assistance from the U.S. troops supplied by the surge.

In Washington, these trends went largely unnoticed, and the debate went on: benchmarks, withdrawal dates, all-in or all-out. But U.S. commanders in Iraq did notice, and shifted their attention. They set out to provide whatever assistance they could to the newly assertive tribes, sometimes against national meddling.

The key piece of reportage illuminating this process is Michael R. Gordon’s must-read essay in last Sunday’s Times Magazine. In one scene, a Sunni tribal leader has been captured by the National Police, who are about to hand him over to the Mahdi Army to be murdered. He manages to call the Americans on his cellphone, who launch a rescue mission. After a tense standoff, he’s freed and can go back to stabilizing his town.

In other words, as Gordon notes, a former Sunni insurgent and enemy of the U.S. ends up calling the Americans so he can be liberated from America’s supposed allies.

The crucial question now is: Do these tribes represent proto-local governments, or are they simply regional bands arming themselves in anticipation of a cataclysmic civil war?

Over the summer, a stream of the best American analysts flooded into Iraq. Upon their return they began writing reports grappling with the tribal resurgence. Slowly, under their influence, the entire debate is shifting. Efforts to transform Iraq into some sort of “modern” nontribal, nonsectarian state are giving way to more realistic visions.

David Kilcullen wrote an essay called “Anatomy of a Tribal Revolt,” which is available on the Web site of the Small Wars Journal. Kilcullen believes the tribal initiatives represent “arguably the most significant change in the Iraqi operating environment for several years.”

Anthony Cordesman has written “The Tenuous Case for Strategic Patience in Iraq,” which is available on the Web site of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Cordesman has been among the most mordant and therefore most accurate analysts of Iraq. In his ambivalent report, he notes that many national institutions are “unsalvageable.” But he observes that there “is a real opportunity that did not exist at the start of the year.” He praises Gen. David Petraeus and comes out, barely, on the side of patience.

As September begins, we’re finally moving beyond abstract debates over troop levels and timetables. The key questions now are: Can U.S. troops help Iraqi locals take control of their own neighborhoods? Is it worth more American lives to help them do so? And, if so, how?
 
287walk
      ID: 2530286
      Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 06:32
September 6, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
The Least Bad Choice
By ROGER COHEN


The way the United States leaves places matters. Having armed mujahedeen fighters to undo the Soviet empire in Afghanistan, America lost interest in a backwater. Payback came in the form of Afghan-trained holy warriors bent on the destruction of the West. That was careless.

It is important to be less careless in Baghdad. As reports on Iraq reach Congress this month, it’s worth considering that blow-back from an oil-rich country at the heart of the battle for the Middle East could be even more severe than the violent legacy of funding Islam to fight communism in Kabul.

Nothing can undo the American blunders in Iraq that turned the liberated into the lacerated. Hubris is bad, careless hubris worse. The fraying Bush administration still can’t work out who took the decision to disband the Iraqi Army in 2003; that’s grotesque. Nobody in the administration should sleep easy over its ethical responsibility for calamitous mistakes.

But what we did matters less today than how we leave Iraq. It’s far easier to score backward-looking political points against Bush than serve the forward-looking interests of 27 million Iraqis. Still, the latter is more important than the former.

As Anthony H. Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies has written: “It seems likely that the U.S. will ultimately be judged far more by how it leaves Iraq, and what it leaves behind, than how it entered Iraq.” America’s future ability to use its hard and soft power “depends on what the U.S. does now.”

Exit timing and U.S. election maneuvering stand at the center of this month’s Iraq drama, with testimony due next week from Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, and Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker, and several reports coming in. One, from the Government Accountability Office, has already given the Bush-Petraeus surge a failing grade: a feckless Iraqi government, unshared oil money, untamed militias and undiminished violence.

Not fair, Petraeus and Bush will argue, using the new catchphrase “bottom-up progress” to highlight headway in Sunni-dominated provinces like Anbar through cash-cemented alliances with local sheiks who have been persuaded to turn again to Al Qaeda.

Bush will also make a virtue of necessity on U.S. troop levels. The post-escalation presence of 160,000 can’t be maintained past next spring unless tours of duty are extended beyond 15 months. So some drawdown will start next year, with improved Iraqi conditions claimed to obscure domestic political realities.

Both views of Iraq are right: the situation is awful and, four years on, cleverer U.S. commanders are winning a few. The enduring horror counsels a swift exit. The positive shifts bolster a catchphrase Cordesman found doing the rounds in Baghdad: “strategic patience.”

I side with the latter, provided the patience is indeed strategic and not just a means to kick the mess into the post-Bush world. That strategy should involve the following elements.

First, continue bolstering Sunni power and allegiance through aggressive use of aid and local security deals. A rough balance of power between the main Iraqi communities — Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish — is in the interests of Iraqi stability.

Second, while accepting that Iraq’s central government will at best be a respectable fig leaf and that strong provincial authorities are essential, pressure the weak Shia-dominated coalition to share oil money, power and space. Stronger American-backed Sunnis and fewer U.S. troops may help focus Shia minds.

Third, establish, with United Nations help, a regional framework for talks between the neighboring powers. Use this to reach out to Iran. Tehran wants America to fail in Iraq but not to the extent that Shia gains are reversed. That provides some leverage.

Fourth, recognize that all Middle Eastern problems — Israel-Palestine, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq — are tied and that the U.S. needs a coherent diplomatic strategy for containing jihadist fanaticism through ideological persuasion. An uncritical embrace of Israel does not help. And whatever happened to Karen Hughes, our invisible public diplomacy czar?

Fifth, protect the countless Iraqis who have helped America and are vulnerable. The U.S. urged Iraqis to rise up in 1991 only to abandon them to slaughter. Never again should be our policy.

The above may just avert the worst: a regional war in which a disintegrating country’s neighbors are drawn into carnage that makes current bloodshed pale.

Some see Iraq as the ultimate demonstration of the demise of American power. Fast withdrawal is in that view’s logic. But if you believe, as I do, that global stability still hinges on the credibility of that power, “strategic patience” is the least bad of the terrible options Bush’s now amnesia-clouded incompetence has bequeathed.
 
288walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 08:56
One Former Soldier's View
 
289walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 08:58
Bush: "We're Kicking Ass in Iraq"
 
290Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 09:12
Krauthammer joins partition promoters

Joe Biden, Peter Galbraith, Leslie Gelb and many other thoughtful scholars and politicians have long been calling for partition. The problem is how to make it happen. Top-down partition by some new constitutional arrangement ratified on parchment is swell, but how does that get enforced any more than the other constitutional dreams that were supposed to have come about in Iraq?

What's happening today on the ground is not geographical line-drawing, colonial style. We do not have a Mr. Sykes and a Mr. Picot sitting down to a map of Mesopotamia in a World War I carving exercise. The lines today are being drawn organically by self-identified communities and tribes. Which makes the new arrangement more likely to last.


 
291Perm Dude
      ID: 1481279
      Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 10:14
The only partition we need to worry about, IMO, is protecting the Kurds. The rest can sort it out (and, in fact, many areas have already).
 
292walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Sep 10, 2007, 12:39
September 10, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Back From Iraq, Still Facing Fire
By THE NEW YORK TIMES


Today and tomorrow, the United States ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker, and the top American general there, David Petraeus, will appear before Congress to offer a progress report on the war. The Op-Ed page asked six experts on the Iraq conflict to come up with three questions they would pose to the two men.

Beyond the Surge

1. General Petraeus, has the surge bought us anything more enduring than fleeting tactical victories?

2. You and Adm. Michael Mullen, the incoming chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, have both said the surge will end in April 2008. What options do we have then?

3. If the United States reduces its forces in Iraq over the next 12 to 24 months, is there a way to pursue our strategic goals of no genocide, no safe haven for Al Qaeda, and no regional war? — Nathaniel Fick, a Marine infantry officer in Iraq and Afghanistan and the author of “One Bullet Away.”

Starving the Troops

1. General Petraeus, why have the White House and State Department failed you by neglecting a diplomatic and economic surge to complement the military one?

2. Based on the counterinsurgency calculus in the new Army manual you helped write, you don’t have sufficient manpower in Iraq, even with the surge. Why has the administration not given you enough troops?

3. Americans are well aware of the shortages of matériel, from rifle scopes to armored Humvees, our troops have suffered from. Why, for example, have you not been given a sufficient number of the effective mine-resistant, ambush-protected vehicles called “MRAPs”? — Paul D. Eaton, a retired Army major general who was in charge of training the Iraqi military from 2003 to 2004.

Wrong Way to Vote?

1. Ambassador Crocker, in Iraqi elections, voters pick national party lists, not individuals to represent specific district constituencies. Has this system made it harder for Iraqi leaders to achieve legislative progress? If so, can it be changed?

2. What changes in United States law could help you succeed in your work in Iraq?

3. Should the United States create a civilian reserve corps to train, equip and deploy volunteer civilians for civilian reconstruction tasks, just as we do military reservists for military tasks? — Douglas J. Feith, under secretary of defense for policy from July 2001 to August 2005.

Our 9-Year Plan

1. General Petraeus, with Gen. George Casey, the Army chief of staff, having declared that the current level of American military commitments is “not sustainable,” what are your plans for preserving your recent gains while also achieving security in the rest of Iraq?

2. In an interview with the BBC, you recently observed that “the average counterinsurgency is somewhere around a 9- or a 10-year endeavor.” With the Iraq war now approaching the four-and-a-half year mark, are we halfway to our goal? Or did the nine-year clock begin ticking only with the initiation of the surge?

3. You have described your mission as “buying time for Iraqis to reconcile.” How will we know when reconciliation is occurring? Please explain how American collaboration with Sunni insurgents lends itself to this larger process of reconciliation. — Andrew J. Bacevich, a professor of history and international relations at Boston University.

Keep an Eye on Iran

1. Ambassador Crocker, President Bush and others have made reference to bottom-up conciliation and the tribal uprising against insurgents in Anbar Province. Would Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki and other Iraqi officials have taken any action to work with Sunni tribal leaders without pressure from the United States? Aren’t you getting constant complaints from tribal leaders, and local and provincial Sunni officials, about the lack of central government cooperation and response?

2. What is the level of Iranian influence over the central government and in Shiite-majority areas in the south? Is it growing or weakening? How does Iran affect the size and actions of the various Shiite militias?

3. What Iraqi ministries are now effective and fully functioning in serving the needs of all Iraqis, rather than influenced by various religious and political factions? — Anthony H. Cordesman, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

Bye to the Brits

1. General Petraeus, even if we accept evidence that the “surge” is indeed delivering real tactical results, how great is the value of these when the Iraqi national government and its institutions still seem so ill fitted to exploit them?

2. What do you think might be the consequences for the security situation in Iraq if the United States undertook military action against Iran’s nuclear facilities?

3. How serious are the consequences for allied strategy of the British Army’s withdrawal from Basra? Are the British justified in their assertion that the security situation in the city is now sufficiently stable to allow the Iraqi National Army to manage it? — Max Hastings, British military historian and author of “Warriors: Portraits From the Battlefield.”
 
293walk
      ID: 2530286
      Fri, Sep 14, 2007, 06:05
September 14, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
A Surge, and Then a Stab
By PAUL KRUGMAN


To understand what’s really happening in Iraq, follow the oil money, which already knows that the surge has failed.

Back in January, announcing his plan to send more troops to Iraq, President Bush declared that “America will hold the Iraqi government to the benchmarks it has announced.”

Near the top of his list was the promise that “to give every Iraqi citizen a stake in the country’s economy, Iraq will pass legislation to share oil revenues among all Iraqis.”

There was a reason he placed such importance on oil: oil is pretty much the only thing Iraq has going for it. Two-thirds of Iraq’s G.D.P. and almost all its government revenue come from the oil sector. Without an agreed system for sharing oil revenues, there is no Iraq, just a collection of armed gangs fighting for control of resources.

Well, the legislation Mr. Bush promised never materialized, and on Wednesday attempts to arrive at a compromise oil law collapsed.

What’s particularly revealing is the cause of the breakdown. Last month the provincial government in Kurdistan, defying the central government, passed its own oil law; last week a Kurdish Web site announced that the provincial government had signed a production-sharing deal with the Hunt Oil Company of Dallas, and that seems to have been the last straw.

Now here’s the thing: Ray L. Hunt, the chief executive and president of Hunt Oil, is a close political ally of Mr. Bush. More than that, Mr. Hunt is a member of the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, a key oversight body.

Some commentators have expressed surprise at the fact that a businessman with very close ties to the White House is undermining U.S. policy. But that isn’t all that surprising, given this administration’s history. Remember, Halliburton was still signing business deals with Iran years after Mr. Bush declared Iran a member of the “axis of evil.”

No, what’s interesting about this deal is the fact that Mr. Hunt, thanks to his policy position, is presumably as well-informed about the actual state of affairs in Iraq as anyone in the business world can be. By putting his money into a deal with the Kurds, despite Baghdad’s disapproval, he’s essentially betting that the Iraqi government — which hasn’t met a single one of the major benchmarks Mr. Bush laid out in January — won’t get its act together. Indeed, he’s effectively betting against the survival of Iraq as a nation in any meaningful sense of the term.

The smart money, then, knows that the surge has failed, that the war is lost, and that Iraq is going the way of Yugoslavia. And I suspect that most people in the Bush administration — maybe even Mr. Bush himself — know this, too.

After all, if the administration had any real hope of retrieving the situation in Iraq, officials would be making an all-out effort to get the government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki to start delivering on some of those benchmarks, perhaps using the threat that Congress would cut off funds otherwise. Instead, the Bushies are making excuses, minimizing Iraqi failures, moving goal posts and, in general, giving the Maliki government no incentive to do anything differently.

And for that matter, if the administration had any real intention of turning public opinion around, as opposed to merely shoring up the base enough to keep Republican members of Congress on board, it would have sent Gen. David Petraeus, the top military commander in Iraq, to as many news media outlets as possible — not granted an exclusive appearance to Fox News on Monday night.

All in all, Mr. Bush’s actions have not been those of a leader seriously trying to win a war. They have, however, been what you’d expect from a man whose plan is to keep up appearances for the next 16 months, never mind the cost in lives and money, then shift the blame for failure onto his successor.

In fact, that’s my interpretation of something that startled many people: Mr. Bush’s decision last month, after spending years denying that the Iraq war had anything in common with Vietnam, to suddenly embrace the parallel.

Here’s how I see it: At this point, Mr. Bush is looking forward to replaying the political aftermath of Vietnam, in which the right wing eventually achieved a rewriting of history that would have made George Orwell proud, convincing millions of Americans that our soldiers had victory in their grasp but were stabbed in the back by the peaceniks back home.

What all this means is that the next president, even as he or she tries to extricate us from Iraq — and prevent the country’s breakup from turning into a regional war — will have to deal with constant sniping from the people who lied us into an unnecessary war, then lost the war they started, but will never, ever, take responsibility for their failures.

 
294walk
      ID: 2530286
      Fri, Sep 14, 2007, 06:09
NYT: Multiple Messages Addressed in Bush Speech
 
295Perm Dude
      ID: 14816149
      Fri, Sep 14, 2007, 10:25
Fred Kaplan with some good fisking of the speech as well.

President Bush's TV address tonight was the worst speech he's ever given on the war in Iraq, and that's saying a lot. Every premise, every proposal, nearly every substantive point was sheer fiction. The only question is whether he was being deceptive or delusional.

His first point is one I've been wondering about as well: Bush seems to be claiming some kind of credit for the success of the surge, which "allows" him to agreeing to reducing troop levels. But the troops would be coming home anyway--we don't have troops to replace them as we've exhausted our supply (and kudos to the military for not agreeing to just extend tours again).

So Bush is essentially patting himself on the back for exhausting our troop levels and combat readiness. Idiot child.
 
296Perm Dude
      ID: 14816149
      Fri, Sep 14, 2007, 11:55
36 countries?
 
297Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Sep 14, 2007, 17:57
The Iraq War and the bastardization of American Conservatism.

 
298Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Mon, Sep 17, 2007, 23:27
Iraq govt orders Blackwater out of the country

BAGHDAD - The Iraqi government announced Monday it was ordering Blackwater USA, the security firm that protects U.S. diplomats, to leave the country after what it said was the fatal shooting of eight Iraqi civilians following a car bomb attack against a State Department convoy.

The order by the Interior Ministry, if carried out, would deal a severe blow to U.S. government operations in Iraq by stripping diplomats, engineers, reconstruction officials and others of their security protection.


 
299Perm Dude
      ID: 43825178
      Tue, Sep 18, 2007, 00:01
Interesting. It was only a matter of time before the Iraqi government started to assert itself in a way that the Administration might not like. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
300Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Sep 18, 2007, 17:59
This could go into any one of numerous threads:

Henry Waxman began an inquiry today into accusations that the State Department inspector general repeatedly interfered with investigations into fraud and abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan, including defects in construction of the huge United States embassy in Baghdad, and put loyalty to the Bush administration ahead of his duties to American taxpayers.
Mr. Waxman wrote that Mr. Krongard’s detractors have described “a dysfunctional office environment” in which he routinely bullies and berates employees and shows contempt for the work of career professionals. As a result, turnover has been so high that the inspector general’s office has been severely compromised, Mr. Waxman wrote.

“Your strong affinity with State Department leadership and your partisan political ties have led you to halt investigations, censor reports and refuse to cooperate with law enforcement agencies,” Mr. Waxman wrote, citing the accounts of disgruntled present and former employees. The assertions in Mr. Waxman’s letter included these:

¶That while the State Department had spent more than $3.6 billion on contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan, “you refused to send any investigators to those countries to pursue investigations into wasteful spending or procurement fraud and have concluded no fraud investigations relating to the contracts.”

¶That Mr. Krongard had prevented his investigators from cooperating with a Justice Department investigation into waste, fraud and abuse involving the new United States Embassy in Baghdad, “and followed highly irregular procedures in exonerating the prime contractor, First Kuwaiti Trading Co., of charges of labor trafficking.”

¶That he had barred his investigators from seizing evidence that they believed would have implicated a major State Department contractor in procurement fraud in Afghanistan.

I really like Henry Waxman.
 
301walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Sep 19, 2007, 12:38
Britain: Our Imaginary Friend
 
302Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Wed, Sep 19, 2007, 23:51
I have been promoting Peter Galbraith as the most sensible voice concerning all things Iraq for years now.
I strongly urge anyone who has an interest in this conflict to read his newest essay. Yes, it is an essay, not a column, and is rather lengthy. I think you'll find it to be an in-depth, coherent and incredibly illuminating analysis.

The Real Success Story in US';s Iraq: Iran
 
303walk
      ID: 2530286
      Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 08:44
$6Bn in Contracts Under Criminal Investigation
 
304Seattle Zen
      ID: 86541617
      Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 11:01
So much for ordering the jack-booted thugs out of "their" country.



The issue I have with this cartoon is the State Dept. guys haven't made a peep regarding the murderous ways of their security detail. The only US press that has even addressed the issue is Frontline.
 
305walk
      ID: 2530286
      Thu, Sep 27, 2007, 06:19
Iraq's (lack of) Refugees (helped by the U.S.)
 
306Perm Dude
      ID: 328512916
      Sat, Sep 29, 2007, 17:54
Blackwater is on a shooting spree

The lack of private security oversight, as well as the monstrous fraud in the financing of this war, needs to be hung around the neck of anyone not advocating immediately beginning withdrawal.

Hell yeah, cut-and-run. Look what we're running from--our own incompetance,
 
307walk
      ID: 2530286
      Mon, Oct 01, 2007, 21:04
Report Depicts Recklessness by Blackwater

I wonder how many other times this has happened, and not been reported. War is not to be gained for personal profit, and killing of innocents. Where is our moral high ground?
 
308walk
      ID: 2530286
      Tue, Oct 02, 2007, 06:04
Blackwater Employee Drunk During Shooting
 
309walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Oct 02, 2007, 09:54
Violence in Iraq down for Sept
 
310walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Oct 02, 2007, 11:36
Army of Dude

I've been reading some of this blog, by Alex Horton, now a very recent vet of the Iraq War. This stuff is very compelling. While a moratorium on soliders blogging was apparently put into effect this year, AH continued to post his blog. I've only read 5 or 6 posts, but it's just something that makes you realize, at the tip of the iceberg level, that many of us (e.g. me) have little knowledge of what life is like for our soldiers in Iraq.
 
311Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 18:00
Re - 308

Ex-contractor who allegedly killed Iraqi lives here
Somewhere in Western Washington resides a former Blackwater contractor who might under normal circumstances be on trial for the high-profile killing of an Iraqi in Baghdad's Green Zone. But federal officials say he's not in custody. They barely acknowledge his existence, let alone release his name or discuss the status of the investigation.

I initially had hoped that murderous stories like this would bow the cover off the disgusting practices of these private contractors and create a public uproar much like Abu Graib. However, 70% of the public now thinks this war is a huge mistake, yet it continues. And the other 30% of Americans who still support this abomination would continue to support the war NO MATTER WHAT WE DO. Kill women and children, rape, pillage, nothing seems to bother them. It's sick.
 
312Tree
      ID: 53938317
      Wed, Oct 03, 2007, 19:55
i really think it has a lot to do with the Monkeysphere. seems pretty obvious to me that while many of us are at least a little concerned with many of those outside of the our Monkeysphere, those 30 percent just don't care at all...

 
313sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 04, 2007, 11:08
re 312: GREAT link Tree. All too accurate I fear.
 
314Seattle Zen
      ID: 50939620
      Sat, Oct 06, 2007, 23:20
The monkeysphere of one

 
315Perm Dude
      ID: 2693498
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 10:50
Meanwhile, the government doesn't have to face SCOTUS on a detainee case because it might reveal "state secrets."

You know, like the ones in which they do illegal things. Nice racket.
 
316Perm Dude
      ID: 2693498
      Tue, Oct 09, 2007, 10:52
I notice the guy wanted $75K for four months of time. Seems like a deal to me.
 
317Perm Dude
      ID: 69301013
      Wed, Oct 10, 2007, 15:39
Almost 90 House Dems say: "No more funding."
 
318walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 14:47
Turkey, Armenian Massacre of 1915, and the War in Iraq

A lof of potential implications. I am not sure if I agree with the Dems on this resolution. It just seems to be badly timed, with more pragmatic consequences. Very cynically, it's gonna add to even more problems in Iraq and more pressure on Bush, but should not be done at the expense of more warfare. This resolution is clearly something that has been involved in American politics for several decades and presidencies. It was one of the worst genocides of modern time, but I'm missing out on essential point of the resolution (?)
 
319CanadianHack
      ID: 7956100
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 15:02
As soon as they stop debating what happened in World War I, congress can jump forward to the 1920's. Maybe by 2100 or so we can debate the current Iraq war.
 
320sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 15:15
and the difference between Turkeys posture on this subject, and the Iranian Presidents posture re the Holocaust, is what exactly?

As I understand it, this resolution is something that has been oft times brought up but not yet passed. IMHO, its high time to condemn those actions and its high time, Turkey (like Germany), acknowledged the error of those actions.
 
321walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 15:31
Right sarge33rd, but they won't (which is morally wrong), and they are playing hard-ball as a result of our resolution. There are many layers to this, like an onion, and sorta moral vs. practical. Bush, for example, called this genocide himself when he was running for president in 2000. Yet, now, he is asking Congress not to pass this resolution cos it's only gonna make our (ill-fated) war in Iraq even harder (access thru Turkey for arms, an air force base in Turkey). So, while I think Turkey should be cool and admit the genocide (but I still don't really get why now (?)) and of course, not be immature and make more problems for us in Iraq/Kurdistan, I don't know why this resolution really has to be done. It's like "avoidable." I can see the two sides on this: what is morally right vs. what is pragmatic (the consequences, regardless of whether Turkey should enact any consequences).
 
322sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 15:36
I agree walk, that there are indeed two clear and distinct sides to it. I wouold prefer however, that our legislators do what is morally right more often, and be pragmatic a bit less often. I think we would ALL be better served, if such were the case.

As far as I can tell, the Iraq effort is and has been, poorly done from the word go. (NOT by the military itsdelf. But by those in charge of supplying the military and establishing policy/goals/objectives.) I dont honestly, see how Turkey could make it THAT much worse. We could ship via SA/Kuwait directly into Iraq.
 
323walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 15:52
I cannot disagree with ya, sarge3rd, on the moral high ground. If legislators were thinking like that, across the board, everywhere, there'd potentially be a lot less violence and other bad stuff.

I really don't know the alternatives to working with Turkey in terms of arms shipments and our air force base, and I am not thrilled that they would almost sorta extort the U.S. as a result of this resolution ("you call us former genocidals, so we won't help you anymore, oh, and we'll start to militarily engage the Kurds more often/intensely"), but if that is the way they would/will behave, then one does have to, unfortunately, weigh benefits of the moral resolution against the practical consequences of Turkey's response(s).
 
324walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 16:07
Some Back-Ups to Turkey

Not that I am encouraging more war in Iraq, just sorta following the theme of this "current event."

Step-Up in Turkey Military Response
 
325Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 16:20
I don't get the timing of this. Why now?
 
326sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 16:48
It appears to have been brought up numerous times in the past, but got nowhere. Now though, there are sufficient nrs willing to act on it, thus its come back to the forefront.

International extortion....is THAT what we get from our "allies"? Hell with "allies" like that, who needs "enemies"?
 
327Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:13
I don't think it's wrong to press the issue, but now is not the time.
 
328sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:26
Understand your point MITH, but if "now" isnt the right time, when IS; the right time to do the right thing?
 
329Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:51
Unless you advocate an ASAP and complete pullout from Iraq (something even most Dem Presidential candidates don't endorse), the priorities of Iraq trump a seperate issue that has been on hold for almost a century.
 
330sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 17:58
I do support an immediate initiation to a pullout. To think we could.should just "up and leave", is abusurd to the extreme.

I dont think we need Turkey, as much as Turkey wants us to need them. Nothing we move through Turkey, we couldnt move through Kuwait/SA. As for Turkey launching its own assaults against the Kurds, we could imbed personnel with the Kurds. An attack on them, then becomes an attack on us. I dont see Turkey being quite so belligerent in that case.
 
331Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:11
Nothing we move through Turkey, we couldnt move through Kuwait/SA.

My understanding is that the extra cost and time of moving materials through Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, not to mention that of expanding or establishing new shipping points of operation there are prohibitive.

One of the great problems with this war is the excessive cost. To raise this issue now and force the war to become even less efficient is very poor timing. The Dems are grandstanding.
 
332sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:15
Cant say as I truly disagree with you, but "cost" has never been a concern for this admin. I dont see it as the crux of their posture now either.

The Dems may well be grandstanding and yes, the timing could be less sensitive. But I think to yield to Turkeys extortive posture, would be even more costly to us eventually.
 
333Perm Dude
      ID: 1951116
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 18:29
The Armenian people have been calling for this for decades. Perhaps the Dems are making some political points at the expense of the flip-flopping White House, but I wouldn't call it "grandstanding" when they are taking the politically difficult path in this one.

It is about time that Turkey faced up to its own history. And allies shouldn't be afraid to speak truth to each other.
 
334Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 19:31
I wouldn't call it "grandstanding" when they are taking the politically difficult path in this one.

Well I think it can be viewed as politically expedient on a morals level (for lack of a better expression - I know that sounds very awkward).

Every time I hear Pelosi speak I doubt her sincerity more. I might agree with her politics more often but her tactics are no less divisive than that of the GOP-led Congress.
 
335walk
      ID: 2530286
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 19:50
It truly is a very interesting political resolution. I must say, I am leaning towards Bush on this one. Right moral issue, wrong time. IMO, the costs outweigh the benefits, even if Turkey is not being "mature" about it.
 
336Perm Dude
      ID: 1951116
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 20:28
There is never a good time, however. And the fact that it makes it more difficult to get troops to Iraq isn't a bad thing, IMO.

Let Turkey pull out of NATO, if they want. Until then, they have to take the responsiblity with the benefits.
 
337Tree
      ID: 459161119
      Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 21:21
screw it. i say we attack Turkey. if you're not with us, you're against us...
 
338sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 10:08
cant attack Turkey, till after we crush Iran, which has to be followed by assaulting NK and then of course, we still havent cleaned up Afghanistan and by then Iraq will be a TOTAL clusterfvck and we'll have to go back in there...and hell...Turkey will have to wait until 2040 or so, cause we'll have to totally rebuild our military complex after all that other "stuff".
 
339Perm Dude
      ID: 1951116
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 10:22
The soldiers for the Turkey War are just being born this year. Give it time.
 
340sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 11:10
get busy America!!!! ;)
 
341sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 13:56
Gen Sanchez echoes what I have said all along:

Ex-Iraq forces Commanders rips political leadership

If some of America’s political leaders were in the military they would have been relieved or court-martialed long ago, Sanchez told a conference of military journalists.

"Neglect and incompetence" by the National Security Council has led to an intractable situation in Iraq, the former commander of coalition forces in Iraq said.


As Commander in Chief, President Bush IS subject to UCMJ.
 
342Perm Dude
      ID: 159551417
      Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 00:38
Republicans band together on Iraq...to attack Sanchez
 
343J-Bar
      ID: 569331511
      Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 14:00
a better read
full transcript
 
344Wilmer McLean
      ID: 399381412
      Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 14:49
Is the President subject to UCMJ?

The Commander-in-Chief a Civilian Officer

The Commander-in-Chief a Civilian Officer.—Is the Commander-in-Chiefship a military or a civilian office in the contemplation of the Constitution? Unquestionably the latter. An opinion by a New York surrogate deals adequately, though not authoritatively, with the subject: “The President receives his compensation for his services, rendered as Chief Executive of the Nation, not for the individual parts of his duties. No part of his compensation is paid from sums appropriated for the military or naval forces; and it is equally clear under the Constitution that the President’s duties as Commander in Chief represent only a part of duties ex officio as Chief Executive [Article II, sections 2 and 3 of the Constitution] and that the latter’s office is a civil office. [Article II, section 1 of the Constitution ... .] The President does not enlist in, and he is not inducted or drafted into, the armed forces. Nor, is he subject to court-martial or other military discipline. On the contrary, Article II, section 4 of the Constitution provides that ‘The President, [Vice President] and All Civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of Treason, Bribery or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.’ . . . The last two War Presidents, President Wilson and President Roosevelt, both clearly recognized the civilian nature of the President’s position as Commander in Chief. President Roosevelt, in his Navy Day Campaign speech at Shibe Park, Philadelphia, on October 27, 1944, pronounced this principle as follows:–‘It was due to no accident and no oversight that the framers of our Constitution put the command of our armed forces under civilian authority. It is the duty of the Commander in Chief to appoint the Secretaries of War and Navy and the Chiefs of Staff.’ It is also to be noted that the Secretary of War, who is the regularly constituted organ of the President for the administration of the military establishment of the Nation, has been held by the Supreme Court of the United States to be merely a civilian officer, not in military service. (United States v. Burns, 79 U.S. 246 (1871)). On the general principle of civilian supremacy over the military, by virtue of the Constitution, it has recently been said: ‘The supremacy of the civil over the military is one of our great heritages.’ Duncan v. Kahanamoku, 327 U.S. 304, 325 (1945).”199


I found this post in the Asia Times forum:

Asia Times forum

The UCMJ only applies to members of the Uniformed Services while on active duty. The President is not a member of the Uniformed Services. He is the Constitutionally appointed Commander-in-Chief while the Congress makes all laws regulating the military including the UCMJ. The House of Representatives could impeach the President and the Senate would try him. However, it would be under the civil laws and not the UCMJ.
 
345J-Bar
      ID: 14461512
      Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 16:15
Sarge you may want to tell Wilmer he needs facts too.
 
346Perm Dude
      ID: 1948158
      Mon, Oct 15, 2007, 16:21
Good find, Wilmer. Was trying to find that out myself, even reading through the UCMJ. Even Sect 2 "Persons subject to this chapter" wasn't clear at first read.
 
347sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 11:07
Indeed Wilmer...very good find.

It would appear, as though I have long held to a mistaken belief. (I know too, that I am far from alone in having held that contention.)
 
348walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 14:58
Washington Post: 12 Army Captains: The Iraq we Knew
 
349sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 15:06
The voices are becoming more and more difficult, for those who support this misadventure, to pass off as belonging to "malcontents" or as Limbaugh puts it "phoney soldiers".
 
350walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Oct 17, 2007, 14:22
NYT video op-ed (10/16)

Worth a look; interesting. Part of an upcoming documentary on the Iraqi resistance.
 
351walk
      ID: 2530286
      Thu, Oct 18, 2007, 06:27
A Day in Iraq, Freedom is Not Free
 
352walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Oct 24, 2007, 11:25
Thomas Friedman: Remember Iraq
 
353Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Oct 28, 2007, 00:02
You WILL enjoy working at the Baghdad Embassy

The US state department has said it may have to force some diplomats to work in Iraq to fill vacancies at the embassy in Baghdad.
About 250 foreign service staff are to be told they are "prime candidates" for nearly 50 jobs, state department human resources director Harry Thomas said.

If too few people volunteer, some will be ordered to go and risk dismissal if they refuse, Mr Thomas said.

 
354walk
      ID: 7952415
      Fri, Nov 02, 2007, 08:44
Allawi: How Elections in Iraq Set Back Democracy
 
355walk
      ID: 7952415
      Fri, Nov 02, 2007, 08:57
60 Minutes to Reveal Source of Faulty Iraq Intel that Led to War
 
356Perm Dude
      ID: 110228
      Fri, Nov 02, 2007, 10:16
I believe that part of the faulty intel came from the use of torture as well, which only serves, it seems, to reinforce what the tortures already "know" and who lead the tortured to spout the answers they want them to. It is a ouiji board for the politically lazy.
 
357Wilmer Mclean
      ID: 31102232
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 04:41
The Petraeus Curve

Times Online
November 3, 2007

Serious success in Iraq is not being recognised as it should be

Is no news good news or bad news? In Iraq, it seems good news is deemed no news. There has been striking success in the past few months in the attempt to improve security, defeat al-Qaeda sympathisers and create the political conditions in which a settlement between the Shia and the Sunni communities can be reached. This has not been an accident but the consequence of a strategy overseen by General David Petraeus in the past several months. While summarised by the single word “surge” his efforts have not just been about putting more troops on the ground but also employing them in a more sophisticated manner. This drive has effectively broken whatever alliances might have been struck in the past by terrorist factions and aggrieved Sunnis. Cities such as Fallujah, once notorious centres of slaughter, have been transformed in a remarkable time.

Indeed, on every relevant measure, the shape of the Petraeus curve is profoundly encouraging. It is not only the number of coalition deaths and injuries that has fallen sharply (October was the best month for 18 months and the second-best in almost four years), but the number of fatalities among Iraqi civilians has also tumbled similarly. This process started outside Baghdad but now even the capital itself has a sense of being much less violent and more viable. As we report today, something akin to a normal nightlife is beginning to re-emerge in the city. As the pace of reconstruction quickens, the prospects for economic recovery will be enhanced yet further. With oil at record high prices, Iraq should be an extremely prosperous nation and in a position to start planning for its future with confidence.

None of this means that all the past difficulties have become history. A weakened al-Qaeda will be tempted to attempt more spectacular attacks to inflict substantial loss of life in an effort to prove that it remains in business. Although the tally of car bombings and improvised explosive devices has fallen back sharply, it would only take one blast directed at an especially large crowd or a holy site of unusual reverence for the headlines about impending civil war to be allowed another outing. The Government headed by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has become more proactive since the summer, but must immediately take advantage of these favourable conditions. The supposed representatives of the Iraqi people in Baghdad need to show both responsibility and creativity if the country's potential is to be realised.

The current achievements, and they are achievements, are being treated as almost an embarrassment in certain quarters. The entire context of the contest for the Democratic nomination for president has been based on the conclusion that Iraq is an absolute disaster and the first task of the next president is to extricate the United States at maximum speed. Democrats who voted for the war have either repudiated their past support completely (John Edwards) or engaged in a convoluted partial retraction (Hillary Clinton). Congressional Democrats have spent most of this year trying (and failing) to impose a timetable for an outright exit. In Britain, in a somewhat more subtle fashion admittedly, Gordon Brown assumed on becoming the Prime Minister that he should send signals to the voters that Iraq had been “Blair's War”, not one to which he or Britain were totally committed.

All of these attitudes have become outdated. There are many valid complaints about the manner in which the Bush Administration and Donald Rumsfeld, in particular, managed Iraq after the 2003 military victory. But not to recognise that matters have improved vastly in the year since Mr Rumsfeld's resignation from the Pentagon was announced and General Petraeus was liberated would be ridiculous. Politicians on both sides of the Atlantic have to appreciate that Iraq is no longer, as they thought, an exercise in damage limitation but one of making the most of an opportunity. The instinct of too many people is that if Iraq is going badly we should get out because it is going badly and if it is getting better we should get out because it is getting better. This is a catastrophic miscalculation. Iraq is getting better. That is good, not bad, news.

 
358Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 08:27
You guys really are suckers for red meat regardless of accuracy, aren't you?


Is no news good news or bad news? In Iraq, it seems good news is deemed no news.

Does this writer claim that no one is reporting on the recent downturn of violence in Iraq?

I assume the article was published before the front page of today's NYT: Bush Sees Iraq Progress From Troop Buildup

The reduction in violence in Iraq has hardly been ignored in the media over the past few weeks. Most outlets are running stories including Army Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno's and President Bush's statements yesterday on progress in Iraq. Even Bill Mahr discussed it on his show last night.

Also - The entire context of the contest for the Democratic nomination for president has been based on the conclusion that Iraq is an absolute disaster and the first task of the next president is to extricate the United States at maximum speed.

Does this really passs for responsible commentary on the right? I wonder how many regular readers of the Times and other Rupert Murdoch publications beileve such blatent lies to be true. I giggle every time you guys whine about the liberal media with a red meat article that is every bit the characiture that you present the other side as.
 
359Perm Dude
      ID: 51101737
      Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 09:17
I don't believe that we can look back on Iraq through any lense and think of it as any kind of "success." On any level.

And just because the Iraqis have mostly completed their neighborhood-by-neighborhood ethnic cleansing (which we couldn't stop in the first place) doesn't mean we deserve some kind of pat on the back now that it has run its course.
 
360Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:16
Federal agents investigating the Sept. 16 episode in which Blackwater security personnel shot and killed 17 Iraqi civilians have found that at least 14 of the shootings were unjustified and violated deadly-force rules in effect for security contractors in Iraq, according to civilian and military officials briefed on the case.

Wait, there are deadly-force rules for contractors in Iraq? Really, how about enforcing them? Notice that they are rules and not laws. So what are they going to do to the "rule" breakers, cut their Christmas bonus from $50,000 to $25,000. Make them do 100 push-ups?
Investigators have concluded that as many as five of the company’s guards opened fire during the shootings, at least some with automatic weapons. Investigators have focused on one guard, identified as “turret gunner No. 3,” who fired a large number of rounds and was responsible for several fatalities.

Investigators found no evidence to support assertions by Blackwater employees that they were fired upon by Iraqi civilians. That finding sharply contradicts initial assertions by Blackwater officials, who said that company employees fired in self-defense and that three company vehicles were damaged by gunfire.

The case could be one of the first thorny issues to be decided by Michael B. Mukasey, who was sworn in as attorney general last week. He may be faced with a decision to turn down a prosecution on legal grounds at a time when a furor has erupted in Congress about the administration’s failure to hold security contractors accountable for their misdeeds.

Well, C1-NRB, you picked a difficult company to write a paper on as the facts are going to be coming at you fast and furious, making large changes to your paper necessary. I want to see some jail sentences and the Iraqis kick Blackwater out of their country before the end of the year.
 
361Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:27
No cartoon?
 
362Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 12:30
The whole outfit is cartoonish, Box.

:)
 
363Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 13:07
Fair point.

Blackwater needs to get the f out right now. Prosecute those guilty in US courts and send them away. We can't tolerate this garbage anymore now that we're trying to turn things around. That behavior is totally unacceptable and is basically like having a free fire zone in a civilian area.
 
364sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 13:09
We can't tolerate this garbage anymore now that we're trying to turn things around.

And just what have we theoretically BEEN doing for the past 5 or so years?
 
365Perm Dude
      ID: 361055149
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 13:17
Now, now. We have to take our advances when and where we can, sarge. I agree with Boxman--get them them hell out, right now--no more excuses.

FWIW, it should be regular soldiers doing the work there, not American mercenaries.
 
366sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 13:26
That I can agree with PD.

My "point of contention", is the apparent admission that we are FINALLY doing something the "right way: over there, when he (Box) said; "...NOW that we are..."

Thats about as close an admission from the right", as I have seen on many forums, that things have been SNAFU all along over there and the shrubs statement SO long ago of "mission accomplished", was so far off the mark as to be pathetic.
 
367Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 13:36
"Thats about as close an admission from the right", as I have seen on many forums"

Didn't I mention to you before that I was against our methodology of how we've prosecuted the war? I swear a conversation like that is around these parts somewhere.

Wow, I represent the right wing of American politics. I feel so much more responsible now with that burden on my shoulders. Just add Champion Of The Right to my list of titles that already include but are not limited to: Husband, Father, Boxman Family Financial Planner, Worker Bee, and Videogame Enthusiast.

My "point of contention", is the apparent admission that we are FINALLY doing something the "right way: over there, when he (Box) said; "...NOW that we are..."

Well, we are trying different things over there like getting local sheiks on board and Al Qaeda having shot themselves in the foot with some of the sheiks has given us a golden moment and crap like Blackwater can't be tolerated. All that's gonna do is mess up progress.
 
368Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Wed, Nov 14, 2007, 19:34
Waxman strikes again

The State Department's top investigator recused himself on Wednesday from probes into the Blackwater security firm after discovering -- during a break in a congressional hearing -- that his brother was connected with the company.

Howard Krongard, who began a hearing of Rep. Henry Waxman's government oversight committee by denying the "ugly rumors" that his brother "Buzzy" was linked to Blackwater, returned after a recess to say he had just contacted his brother and learned he had attended a Blackwater advisory board meeting.

"I had not been aware of that. And I want to state on the record right now that I hereby recuse myself from any matters having to do with Blackwater," Krongard, who acts as an independent internal investigator for the State Department, told the panel.....

A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard is a former executive director of the CIA. Howard Krongard is a former general counsel at Deloitte & Touche.

Krongard contacted his brother after Democratic lawmakers waved e-mails showing Blackwater had invited him to be on the company's advisory board and attend a meeting in Williamsburg, Virginia, this week.

Several current and former staffers from Krongard's office said he threatened investigators with retaliation if they cooperated with Waxman's probe. Krongard is also accused of telling the staff not to cooperate with the Justice Department, and impeding investigations into alleged arms smuggling by Blackwater and construction problems with a massive new U.S. embassy in Baghdad.


Some may also remember "Buzzy" as one of the founders of the Carlyle Group, which made hundreds of millions in defense-related companies post 9/11.



 
369Perm Dude
      ID: 3210222722
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 23:23
The forever war
 
370 P
      ID: 4510362014
      Thu, Nov 29, 2007, 20:49
My take on Iraq is simply this; we are in a struggle between two distinct and opposite ways of living. In the first, you have Western civilization, with all its problems and its strengths; and Islamo-fascism.

Let me make it clear, I don't see all Muslims as fanatical Islamo-fascists. As is the case with most radical movements; the Islamo-fascists are from the privilage class of their society. Bin Laden is a very wealthy, alienated psuedo-intellectual who wants to bring the world back to the 7th Century. He wants to turn back time to when women were treated as chattle, anyone who wants to be an individualist is beat down, or in many cases killed. Freedom and democracy are dirty words.

If the West doesn't break this menance in Iraq and Afghanistan, then we will be fighting for the rest of history to save our civilization. But, if we win; and it looks as though we are winning, then this menance will be thrown onto the ash heap of history, as were its predecessors, the Nazis and Imperial Japan.

Anyone opposed to defeating Islamo-fascism is either extremely ignorant of history; or is simply a damn fool!
 
371Perm Dude
      ID: 11043298
      Thu, Nov 29, 2007, 21:10
We brought the menace to Iraq, however. There was no al-Qaeda in Iraq before the US came and invaded.

If you think those who oppose the Iraq War don't also oppose Islamic terrorism (which, of course, is different from the FOX News-slogan Islamo-fascist) you've got a lot of reading to do.
 
372Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 29, 2007, 21:22
If the West doesn't break this this menance in Iraq and Afghanistan

I'm not aware of any prominant Islamo-fascist movements in Iraq before the USA and it's coalition overthrew and occupied the place.

...we will be fighting for the rest of history to save our civilization

The most likely way that Islamo-fascism will end western civilization is through theexpansit and authoritarian measures we fear the west will further to eradicate it. They've already made a dent and far too few of us have noticed.
 
373sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 10:37
Islamo-Fascism is not an entity which CAN be defeated by force of arms. Its an ideology which through force of arms, can only be bolstered. To "defeat" an ideology, requires winning the "hearts and minds", not killing the bodies. The killing, only enhances their ability to recruit new members into their fold.
 
374Doug
      ID: 559171521
      Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 15:36
Meanwhile, not only are distracted from pressing domestic and economic issues... but the costs we are incurring in prosecuting this war are actually exacerbating our economic situation... which I think is the larger longer-term threat that we are facing. It's not insurmountable by any means, but we're currently on the wrong track and the sooner we get it turned around the better. And it's not that we shouldn't combat terrorism either... but Iraq really had very little to do with that fight. Certainly nothing remotely proportionate to what we've "invested" (wasted?) there.
 
375Wilmer McLean
      ID: 381153160
      Sun, Dec 16, 2007, 01:57
Iraqi oil exceeds pre-war output (BBC)

Iraqi oil production is above the levels seen before the US-led invasion of the country in 2003, according to the International Energy Agency (IEA).
The IEA said Iraqi crude production is now running at 2.3 million barrels per day, compared with 1.9 million barrels at the start of this year.

It puts the rise down to the improving security situation in Iraq, especially in the north of the country.

But the IEA warned that attacks on Iraqi oil facilities remain a threat.

 
376Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Mon, Dec 17, 2007, 22:42
Bush to Kurds - Screw You

The blow back here in Kurdistan is building against the US government. There are protests and visible anger as the story of the US Air Force helping the Turks kill Kurds in the Kandil Mountains spreads. My [Kurdish] colleagues here are headed to an emergency session of the parliament. The entire [Kurdish] negotiating team left Baghdad and flew back here to attend the session. People are really upset. The Turks of course are...emphasizing that the US Air Force was heavily involved in the attack.

The Kurdish theme is one of shock, and betrayal. The Kurds see themselves as the only true friend of the Americans in the region, and the only part of Iraq that is working, and are especially hurt by the attack. The US has never killed Kurds deliberately before. We killed a lot of them in the war by accident and recklessness, which [the Kurds] managed to rationalize away, but never on purpose. We are at a loss to understand the [US government] thinking on supporting this operation.

The attack (and the USG help for it) is viewed [by the Kurds] as a deliberate retaliation against them by the USG, because the [Kurdish Regional Government] won't fold on the issues that [U.S. Ambassador Ryan] Crocker keeps pressing them about during the talks in Baghdad.
The Kurds are holding firm on Article 140 (the constitutional provision that would render oil-rich Kirkuk a Kurdish area), the revenue sharing law, and the oil law, and [Kurds are saying that] Crocker said to Nichervan [Barsani, a Kurdish leader,] "we might just let, or even encourage the Turks to come into northern Iraq to strike at the PKK," [the Kurdistan Workers' Party, a separatist group]....

The theme taking shape is since the Kurds won't fold on all the US demands for the Kurds to violate their own constitution, the USG will punish them. It is a shocking turn of events. [The Kurdish region] is the last bastion of US support, and the USG seems determined to destroy this too.
 
377Pern Dude
      ID: 341143188
      Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 09:53
How Long Should We Stay In Iraq?

Seriously--in this partisan, govern with 51% country of ours, when has 75% of the people agreed on anything? That's a veto-proof number, Dems.
 
378Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 22:36
White House spokesperson Dana Perino lying to the public today.

"I can tell you that of course we are coordinating with the Turkish and Iraqi authorities in the area. The PKK is a threat to Turkey, to Iraq, and to the United States. So we continue to share information, share intelligence, with them (Turkish and Iraqi authorities)," said Perino.

The PKK is a threat to the United States. And what Iraqi authorities is she talking about?

KRG President Massoud Barzani, who had been due to fly to Baghdad to meet Rice, will not do so in protest, Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani said. "It was decided that Massud Barzani would go to Baghdad to take part in a meeting with Condoleezza Rice and other officials, but he will not go now as a sign of protest against the American position on the bombings by Turkey. It is unacceptable that the United States, in charge of monitoring our airspace, authorized Turkey to bomb our villages," he told reporters.




 
379J-Bar
      ID: 32114499
      Tue, Dec 18, 2007, 23:51
a few more stories

link

a pkk supporter report or a month of U.S. reconnaissance to tell me what was hit. you believe who you want and i will believe who i want.
 
380Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 00:13
J-Bar,
If you believe the PKK is a threat to the US, then whatever you believe isn't worth contemplating.
 
381Pern Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 00:28
The Administration (which provides J-Bar's talking points) believes the PKK to be a threat against their political interests. Despite shrill warnings for years now, threatening the political interests of the Administration is not the same as threatening the United States.

[In fact, we have a lot of evidence that the Administration's political interests are a threat to the United States].
 
382Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 01:37
U.S. military commanders in Iraq didn't know Turkey was sending warplanes to bomb in northern Iraq on Sunday until the planes had already crossed the border, said defense and diplomatic officials, who were angered about being left in the dark.


But defense and diplomatic officials in Washington and Baghdad told The Associated Press that U.S. commanders in Iraq knew nothing about Sunday's attack until it was already under way



link

 
383Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 10:16
For those who think Turkish aggression against the Kurds is limited to flushing PKK guerillas out of the Qandil mountains, consider these developments.

DTP leader arrested 54 DTP Mayors on trial
Fifty-six mayors (54 of them from the DTP) are currently standing trial for a letter they sent to Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen on December 27, 2005. The mayors urged the Danish authorities not to approve the Turkish government’s request to close down the Denmark-based satellite television channel Roj TV, arguing that the TV channel is a popular broadcaster of Kurdish language and cultural life. The mayors explicitly avoided commenting on the political line promoted by the television channel and the content of its broadcasts, but rather dwelt on the need for greater freedom of expression in Turkey. The mayors are being prosecuted under TPC articles 220/7, 314/2, and 314/3; they face prison sentences of between seven-and-a-half and 15 years if convicted.

None of this is really news, it's just a continuation of a denial of Turkish Kurds' basic human rights that's been going on almost a century, with US approval. Also from the second link above:

Prosecutions of officials from the DTP, as well as another Kurdish party, the Rights and Freedoms Party (HAK-PAR), were also brought repeatedly under the Law on Political Parties for infringements of the prohibition on using languages other than Turkish in material published by the party, on banners, at political meetings, or to address public gatherings, or for using letters such as “w,” “q,” or “x” to indicate a Kurdish spelling and that do not exist in the Turkish alphabet.

These policies are never mentioned in media coverage of Turkey's conflict with the PKK, which tends to frame Turkey as an innocent victim of a terrorist group. Rarely mentioned is US complicity with what can only be described as genocide, and it's
non-partisan.

In 1997, the Clinton administration granted Boeing and Bell market licenses to build the attack helicopters, brushing aside human rights objections from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch about Turkey's abuse of its ethnic population.

Since President Clinton took office in 1992, more than $6 billion in U.S. weaponry has been delivered to Turkey. If Bell wins the helicopter contract, as expected, the administration may again override human rights concerns and, in effect, broker the sale to Turkey by granting export licenses.

American-made helicopters are well-known to the Kurds. I have often encountered refugees from destroyed villages in southeast Turkey whose only English were the words "Sikorsky" and "Cobra." Villagers know that the soldiers who burn their houses arrive in Blackhawk helicopters, the troop transports that are made by the Connecticut-based Sikorsky company. And they easily recognize the rocket-equipped Cobras, which are manufactured at the Bell Textron plant in Fort Worth.

Turkish Kurdistan is a rugged, mountainous region, and helicopters have proved essential in the army's scorched-earth campaign. So far, more than 3,000 Kurdish villages have been burned, depriving the guerrillas of vital logistical support. Estimates of civilian Kurds displaced by the war range from 500,000 to 2 million.


So, when the White House says that the PKK is a threat to the United States, when Condi Rice says yesterday from Kirkuk, where hundreds of thousands of Kurds were displaced or simply murdered by Saddam Hussein that Turkey, Iraq and the United States have a "common interest" in the PKK problem, I have to roll my eyes with disgust.

Turkish Kurds, burned out of their villages with high tech US-made weapons, fired from high-tech US made helicopters, deprived of speaking their own language, watching their political leaders imprisoned for speech violations, grab their Kalishnikov rifles and head to the mountains, where they are then bombed by high-tech US made jets, are a threat to the US? Congratulations, Bush White House. You have just distorted the word "threat" beyond any recognition of its original meaning. And, fortunately for you, there are many J-Bar's who buy your propoganda without question.

 
384angryCHAIR
      ID: 29955918
      Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 10:21
Cheney on Iraq 1994
 
385walk
      ID: 121115288
      Fri, Dec 28, 2007, 09:26
Top 10 Myths about Iraq
 
386Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Dec 28, 2007, 12:05
Damn you, Walk, don't you know that the SURGE IS WORKING! Hell, Charles Gibson said so himself.
 
387Wilmer McLean
      ID: 201138291
      Sat, Dec 29, 2007, 02:43
Iraq Fact Check: Responding to Key Myths
 
388Tree
      ID: 541157299
      Sat, Dec 29, 2007, 11:02
WM - no disrespect toward you, but that link is directing us to the GW Bush White house, which over the past 7 years has proven to not be just an unreliable source, but a downright dishonest and intentionally misleading one.
 
389Perm Dude
      ID: 5311302910
      Sat, Dec 29, 2007, 13:01
An independent source would be appreciated, however. Administration talking points just isn't independent. Particularly when it is taking on some "myths" no one is seriously floating.
 
390Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Sat, Dec 29, 2007, 15:24
Post 387

1. MYTH: The war “is lost.”

* FACT: Our commanders and ambassador do not believe that


Surprise, surprise. Had our ambassadors and commanders ever gotten anything correct in the past 4 years, they would have some credibility. Our commanders and ambassador would no longer be our commanders or ambassador if they were honest.

FACT: The surge of operations is just beginning.

Yeah, this website is dated 7/11/2007. That is no longer a fact.

FACT: We have seen promising indicators since the President announced the new strategy in January.

What the hell is a "promising indicator"? It's bullshit answers like that which lead to approval ratings in the 20's. People are tired of corporate speak couching their outright lies.

2. MYTH: U.S. troops in Iraq are not fighting al Qaeda terrorists, just policing a Shiite vs. Sunni “civil war.”

* FACT: Gen. Petraeus says “al Qaeda's terror war is focused on Iraq,” where “they are carrying out the bulk of the sensational attacks, the suicide car bomb attacks, suicide vest attacks.” Iraqi President Jalal Talabani says “the main enemy of Iraqi people is al Qaeda and terrorists cooperating with them.”
* FACT: While there is certainly dangerous sectarian violence in Iraq, al Qaeda causes a vast majority of the spectacular suicide bombings that show up on U.S. TV screens and, importantly, is trying to stoke sectarian violence and chaos by using human beings, even young children, as bombers.
* FACT: Al Qaeda terrorists are targeting Iraqi Sunnis as well as Shiites and Kurds. For example, the 41 tortured Iraqis found May 27 in an al Qaeda hideout north of Baghdad were all Sunni.
* FACT: Al Qaeda leaders like bin Laden and Zawahiri (who last week said “victory” is near) want to “expel the Americans from Iraq” and establish a radical Islamic empire to launch a “jihad wave to the secular countries neighboring Iraq.” These killers are clearly not going to participate in the political process or work with those who do not share their murderous ideology if America gives them what they want by leaving.


That first fact is an outright lie. Al Qaeda has little presence in Iraq anymore, most of them are somewhere in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Al Qaeda is a tiny fraction of the fighter were are dealing with in Iraq. Sorry, George, Al Qaeda is not driving the Sunnis out of Bagdad, Iraqi Shiites are.

Al Qaeda is trying to "stoke sectarian violence"? Preposterous. Yeah, some radical Yemeni or Saudi nutjob shows up in your random Iraqi city, starts "stoking" some anger and TADA, that once placid burg erupts into an ethnic cleansing nightmare! Quit lying!

Oh, bin Ladin and Zawahiri want the Americans to leave, do they, and our leaving would allow them to declare victory. Hmm, what about the other 85%+ of Iraqis who want us to leave? How about putting it up for a vote? Since when did bin Ladin and Zawahiri, "these killers", threaten to participate in running Iraq? What about the "killers" we are supporting now? Using that logic, we could never leave until every single Islamic radical is dead because someone, somewhere could declare "victory". Perhaps the North should have never ended Reconstruction for some angry Southerner "killers" could declare victory.

I'm not even going to address the rest of that drivel. Linking to that drivel was pathetic, Wilmer, simply drooling-on-the-keyboard PATHETIC!
 
391Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Sat, Dec 29, 2007, 15:29
Wm, any site that doesn't spouse the wacko left-wing agenda is considered unreliable.
 
392Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Dec 29, 2007, 15:44
Insults in lieu of the ability to compose a logic or fact based response. How surprising.
 
393Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Sat, Dec 29, 2007, 18:36
Re: Post 387

Look, I know that the government/military has to lie to the public in order to paint a pretty picture when there is nothing pretty at all. Yeah, war is hell, blah, blah, blah, the public doesn't need to know how bad it is, we need the intestinal fortitude to tough out this ugly fight, etc... Therefore this government/military misleads the public, "for their own good."

Knowing that, it is ridiculous to point to their propaganda campaign as evidence that things are going well in Iraq, simply ridiculous. It is hard to accept any reports from the soldiers for the same reason, they are mislead for their own good and they are ordered to follow the storyline. I can't say that I've spent much time looking, but I haven't heard of any independent journalist who has said that things in Iraq are going so well that there is hope for an end of the Civil War. Every rosy report I've come across is littered with quotes from soldiers or other Americans.
 
394Wilmer McLean
      ID: 201138291
      Sun, Dec 30, 2007, 20:32
I apologize for my errant 387 post, one made spontaneously with bloody eyes and a blitzed, rum induced brain.

I usually vet my posted links for date, source and content. With 387 I just googled iraq, surge, myth, and stupidly grabbed one of the top links without checking and waiting.

Not up to my usual standard, I agree.

Thank you Tree and PD for your gracious feedbacks. (I lost my streak of PD's "good find.")

--------------------------------------------

I posted a flash game in the Fun Stuff-links page, The Seven Deadly Sins. One down, six to go here ;)

Fun Stuff link (Seven Deadly Sins) Post 364
 
395Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Mon, Dec 31, 2007, 18:12
And I apologize for my last two posts, they were too harsh.

I'm enjoying the Seven Deadly Sins.
 
396Wilmer McLean
      ID: 605713
      Tue, Jan 01, 2008, 05:05
Thanx Zen.

And a hint to the game, you will need to visit the forest. I missed that the first go round.
 
397Perm Dude
      ID: 2001288
      Tue, Jan 08, 2008, 13:37
A chance to help the family of a hero.

I know--there are thousands of these families. But maybe just starting with one will help strengthen the connections between ourselves in these divisive times.
 
398Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Sat, Jan 12, 2008, 23:42


This story blew me away. The numbers are staggering.

121 veterans have been charged in the death of someone since they have been home.
Individually, these are stories of local crimes, gut-wrenching postscripts to the war for the military men, their victims and their communities. Taken together, they paint the patchwork picture of a quiet phenomenon, tracing a cross-country trail of death and heartbreak.

The New York Times found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war. In many of those cases, combat trauma and the stress of deployment — along with alcohol abuse, family discord and other attendant problems — appear to have set the stage for a tragedy that was part destruction, part self-destruction.

Three-quarters of these veterans were still in the military at the time of the killing. More than half the killings involved guns, and the rest were stabbings, beatings, strangulations and bathtub drownings. Twenty-five offenders faced murder, manslaughter or homicide charges for fatal car crashes resulting from drunken, reckless or suicidal driving.

About a third of the victims were spouses, girlfriends, children or other relatives, among them 2-year-old Krisiauna Calaira Lewis, whose 20-year-old father slammed her against a wall when he was recuperating in Texas from a bombing near Falluja that blew off his foot and shook up his brain.

A quarter of the victims were fellow service members, including Specialist Richard Davis of the Army, who was stabbed repeatedly and then set ablaze, his body hidden in the woods by fellow soldiers a day after they all returned from Iraq.

They determined that this was an increase of 89% in the rate of murders/homicides from the six years before the war. The vast majority of them had no criminal history before their act unlike most murderers.

“You are unleashing certain things in a human being we don’t allow in civic society, and getting it all back in the box can be difficult for some people,” said William C. Gentry, an Army reservist and Iraq veteran who works as a prosecutor in San Diego County.
 
399Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 07:16
Zen - Of`course there's nothing even remotly approaching a scientific study in that piece - it's all anectdoal and the bit about how they determined that "this was an increase of 89% in the rate of murders/homicides from the six years before the war." is just garbage plucked out of their a$$.

Basically, they base their "study" on a google search. Yeah, gotta be right....

But of course, if it fits with thenarrative you already "know" to be true, then why question it, right?
 
400walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 09:33
Well, MBJ, anecdotal or not, it's still pretty disturbing, no? Semi-unrelatedly-ish

NY Times: Kristol on Dems Denial over Surge Success
 
401Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 10:05
Of`course there's nothing even remotly approaching a scientific study in that piece

And the reason it is not scientific is because the Dept. of Def. refuses to look into this problem. The numbers are staggering, scientifically studied or not.

I do not pretend to "know" anything, but this story lends me to believe that this war is taking a physic toll on our soldiers and we are letting them down again, much as we did to our men a women returning from Vietnam.
 
402Myboyjack
      ID: 56039812
      Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 10:06
Well, MBJ, anecdotal or not, it's still pretty disturbing, no?

It's only disturbing if, in fact, there is a real, substasntial increase in homicides by returning vets, right. This "study" is BS. The fact that this particular BS happens to be wrapped in the NYTs doesn't make it ramarkable or disturbing.
 
403Myboyjack
      ID: 56039812
      Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 10:08
And the reason it is not scientific is because the Dept. of Def. refuses to look into this problem

That's no defense to pulling numbers from a$$ to support whatever predetermined conclusion the aythors wanted..
 
404walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Jan 14, 2008, 10:22
Well, regardless of where the anecdotes come from, I think it's disturbing news. I see your point that if the incidence is no greater amongst this cohort than would be otherwise (i.e. the number of homicides for returning Iraqi war vets now = number of homicides for non-Iraqi war vets, or whatever the appropriate comparison groups is (I dunno myself)), then it's not really "an issue." However, it surely does feel like an issue. I guess I am somewhat sensitive to this type of news as I have friends who do counseling for vets with PSTDs and they say theres just so many cases, and they are so affected. However, I don't have the data you seek.
 
405Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 04:17
You Liberals are unbelievable, when you compare the numbers of those who served in Afghan and Iraq in the age group of 18 to 34 to the percentage of murders and drunk drivers nationally, you find their are fewer incidences with the soldiers than the national average.

Liberals slandering soldiers is nothing new, this time there is undeniable proof, the leftwingers are full of crap.



 
406Boldwin
      ID: 120301616
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 04:39
Devastating post, Jag. Well done.
 
407Tree
      ID: 37035175
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 06:41
well, at least one of the three posters in these recent posts that leans right has a valid point.

then we've got another who just spends his time slandering leftists without ever providing a shred of anything even remotely important or accurate in anything he posts, and then we've got his older lemon party buddy giving him the reach around.

thanks MBJ, for at least providing support for your argument. i never thought i'd miss the days when Steve Houpt was a regular poster around here. at least he also provided reasonable back up and proof for his claims.
 
408Perm Dude
      ID: 2609178
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 09:09
Actually, according to the US Department of Health & Human Services, a higher percentage of veterans drive drunk or under the influence of illicit drugs. The nonveteran comparison group reflected the age, gender, and geographic distribution of veterans as indicated in the Veterans Health Administrations's benefit eligibility data.

According to the same source, a much higher percentage of veterans suffered from severe psychological distress and substance abuse disorders

None of this should be a surprise. The mental health care veterans receive has gotten better over the years, but war is hell. What is a surprise is that people like Jag & Baldwin would insist that there are no post-action effects of service, though not only is there plenty of hard evidence out there but it makes sense.

Perhaps neither Jag nor Baldwin have ever served, and that is the excuse for their heads in the sand about the needs of veterans. But it is shameful.
 
409walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 09:19
Yes, it is shameful, Jag, that you turn around the points that some are making as slander against soldiers. To be clear, I do not blame the victims here, which are the soldiers. I blame those who pursue war, without a deep enough concern for the myriad of horrid consequences that result from war. One of these consequences is injury, and injuries can be physical, mental and emotional. Sometimes these injuries result in these incidents. I do not know if the incidence of these incidents is higher than for the appropriate cohort group, but they are sad nonetheless. This is my point. It's an anti-"let's go to war" point, not an anti-soldier point.

If, however, it's easier for you to converse or comprehend these points using "Jag speak," then I'll default to your dummied down level and say it's an anti-Jag point, anti-conservative point, anti-republican point. "All conservatives are stupid, all republicans are stupid, talking to republican is like talking to..." (fill in dummied down analagy here, such as "blond"), etc. There, do you now get my point?

And then, to qualify, I don't believe the above parapgraph, that all types of persons act/believe a certain way and therefore are stupid, but you either wish to antagonize (likely) or are stupid, so therefore, in defense, I throw-up the same.
 
410Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:29
The NYT made an article and pulled 'facts' out of their ass. From what I heard they just Googled it. I have seen 3 news broadcasts debunking the Times article and they are reporting, that murders committed by vets coming back from Iran and Afghan is actually 5xs lower than the national average for the target age group.
 
411sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:32
"Target age group", is meaningless. You have to compare apples to apples JAG. What is the rate, compared to the same age group of returning combat vets from times past? (IOW, you have to account for similar stress levels in the psyches, in order for the comparative to be valid.)
 
412Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:40
I don't think anyone discounts that the war is stessful, but to fudge the facts the way the NYT did is shameful and for you guys not to blast the Times for it shows all of your partisanship.
 
413Perm Dude
      ID: 2609178
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:41
5 times lower? Where did you see that?

I'll grant that the Times article doesn't appear, on its face, to make proper statistical comparisons (As Sludge would be quick to point out, this doesn't invalidate the data, this just says what they are saying isn't proof). But your post 405 goes way beyond that, accusing "liberals" of slandaring the soldiers and making up statistics on drunk driving (a charge which is entirely baseless on your part).
 
414sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:42
No JAG, what it showa is our ability to wait for more data. YOUR reliance on "what you've heard", while lacking any real info with which to refute the article; demonstrates your absolute bias against all things with which you dont already agree.
 
415Perm Dude
      ID: 2609178
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:44
BTW, there are some decent rebuttals to the Times piece. Here's one. And here's another. You'll note that the limit the criticism to what the Times article is actually saying. And they have no need to namecall.
 
416walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:51
Agreed PD, on Jag, #413. Jag, the Times article was basically saying that some of these guys coming back are so fcuked up, there's been some horrible things done. I don't think the proper stat comparison is between returning vets and similarly aged civilians. As sarge says, it should be between returning vets from this war vs. returning vets from another war. Many ways to slice this comparison group though.

What do you think the NY Times was trying to say, anyway? What really is your counterpoint? That starting a war, resulting violence, hundredes of thousands of deaths and wounded and scarred psyches in the name of a security threat and/or a moral obligation to remove a dictator is justified? If those are your points, then say them. That's the argument our administration gave. I don't agree with that view, but some do.

My view is that war is hell, and has serious, intense, awful, and widespread personal consequences. We have not really seen these images of wounded, dying, dead soldiers -- only images of wounded, dying, displaced and dead Iraqis, which should be enough for folks to say: "wait, wait, wait a minute!" Now, others have a logical counter which is: "I know, I know, I know, it's horrid, but we started it, we fcuked it up, but now the surge is working to some extent, and we have to finish it up or the horridness will be worse." That's a counterpoint. I don't necessarily agree with it, but to some extent, that is where we are. Where we were...starting this awful mess in the name of preventing a possible mess/getting rid of a bad man (who's badness, IMO, was not nearly as "bad" as the widespread badness of war we introduced, in the name of "goodness") does not compute for me. And one of the side effects of this war, are these soldiers who have come home really messed up done these things. No war --> no soldiers who die, get maimed, get psych scarred, and/or come home messed up do these things.
 
417walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 14:35
NY Post: Counter to Times' View on Vet Homicides

Here ya go, Jag. What you may have been asking for.
 
418sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 15:07
To somewhat recant my post 411 above: If indeed the nr of alledged killings by Iraqi vets is but 1/6th that of the same age/group of non-vets; that is telling. It would indicate that perhaps the war isnt as hard on the psyche as one would imagine. However, I think that neither statistic is complete and totally accurate. I'm not a statistician, but I would think that a comparative of vets today vs vets from wars past; then comnparing vets of today to non-vets of today AND comparing vets of the past against non-vets of the past; (as per the stats referenced by the POST piece in WALKs 417 above). I'm sure even more demographic info could be culled in order to serve the mis-information desires of either side; but I'm not so sure it would contribute to the overall picture.
 
419sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 15:07
To somewhat recant my post 411 above: If indeed the nr of alledged killings by Iraqi vets is but 1/6th that of the same age/group of non-vets; that is telling. It would indicate that perhaps the war isnt as hard on the psyche as one would imagine. However, I think that neither statistic is complete and totally accurate. I'm not a statistician, but I would think that a comparative of vets today vs vets from wars past; then comnparing vets of today to non-vets of today AND comparing vets of the past against non-vets of the past; (as per the stats referenced by the POST piece in WALKs 417 above). I'm sure even more demographic info could be culled in order to serve the mis-information desires of either side; but I'm not so sure it would contribute to the overall picture.
 
420walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 15:27
Sarge, you may not be a statistician, but your comparison groups are more accurate than the NY Post's metrics. I have done a lot of work on research design, stats, etc., both in courses taken, courses taught, and then in the business world. Part of a good experimental research design is the proverbial "apples to apples" type comparisons.

The article by the NY Times did not make the case for a disproportionately higher incidence of alleged homicides by Iraqi war vets, but more gave an anecdotal account showing, by example (using the "case study approach"), war has many unintended and unfortunate consequences. In a sense, any life ruined, as a result of war, is a bad thing...even if that life may have been ruined in a non-war setting. We're just sorta piling on the contextual events that add stress and can lead to bad outcomes.

Statistically, some better comparison groups over time, controlling for a host of individual variables, would be more ideal. I still would not discount the NYT article because it lacks a rigorous methodological approach in research design. I think it's still valid on its face -- based on anecdotal case stories recounted.
 
421sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 15:49
Indeed walk, and the one variable that I'm not at all sure how one would correctly account for; is the differences between those who CAN/do enlist and those who dont serve. IOW, does the military screening process, inherently reduce or impact at all, the predisposition of that population sample to commit crimes? Then, what impact does service in a combat environment have upon the ultimate statistics?

That war is hell, none who have been there would argue. That it has severe detrimental affects upon some, cannot I think be intelligently argued. I'm certain that virtually anyone with any functioning brain at all, would stipulate auch. How MUCH impact it has, is the unanswered (unanswerable???) question.
 
422Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 16:20
Jag 405:
Liberals slandering soldiers
As pointed out already, it's a piece about the toll of war that is the affect on the psyche of soldiers. The intent is not to demonize them. If anything, it's to generate sympathy for them. If it were a similarly put together investigative piece about any other group (inner city minority youths, for example) you wouldn't be accusing the Times of demonizing them, you'd be attacking the Times for their liberal pro-criminal sympathy for murderers in chalking their actions to some hokey phschological disorder.

And what in the world is the point of comparing drunk driving incidents among veterans to overall figures?


Baldwin 406
Really, I'd love to know exactly what is so devastating about post 405. Obviously, I just don't get it. Please, dumb it down for me.
 
423Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 16:41
You guys remind me of the time the Dems used the 'misery index', they kept changing what determined it, until it fit their propaganda message.

You can bastardize the facts all you like, but I don't think even Michael Moore could put a good spin on this one.

This is typical of the NYT, but normally their bias can not be so irrefutably shown. It is similiar to the Clintons, they have danced from one scandal to the next with the grace of Fred Astaire and if not for DNA evidence, the Monica fiasco would of been chalked up as Republican creating a scandal.
 
424Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 16:50
Is post 423 an attempt to live up to Jag's accusations of the behavior of liberals in this forum?

You guys remind me of the time the Dems used the 'misery index', they kept changing what determined it, until it fit their propaganda message.

Uh... what determining factors of the Times article have liberals changed?

You can bastardize the facts all you like

?

What facts have been "bastardized"?

You know it's always easy to tell when your words have little or no real meaning - you wrap it up with the old standby:

Clintons... from one scandal to the next... the Monica fiasco
 
425Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 17:10
Btw, I should add that I do agree that the Times article is crap. There is no valid point that can be made by comparing various sets of anecdotal evidence in this manner.

I do suspect that a more empirical study might yield results comparable to what the Times "found" (that vets returning from war exhibit more violent tendencies and generally volitile behavior than active and former military personnel who have not spent any time in combat zones). But the authors of this article have done nothing to further that contention.
 
426Perm Dude
      ID: 2609178
      Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 17:11
The "misery index" components never changed. Though your story about it, and the Carter Administration in general, probably does to fit the point you think you are making at the time.

Perhaps you are talking about members of the band Misery Index. If so, I agree--the loss of Mike Harrison really changed the sound of the band.
 
427Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 01:14
You guys can spin the NYT article all you want, but the bottom line is they and most of you hate Bush to the point it has interfered with rational thought.

This is why I and Baldwin are here. We add clear thinking to a mentally unstable group.
 
428Perm Dude
      ID: 2609178
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 01:19
Can't continue your argument on the facts, so you fall back on the hate argument, eh? A rational person would use facts to advance an argument, but each and every time you are challenged on the facts your abandon the argument you just made and blame it all on the liberals. It is like you really don't have anything except a series of vacuous talking points with an agenda and a goal but no philosophical or logical underpinnings with it.

You are here for us to have light workouts upon. The non-resistence kind that get us warmed up for the real arguments elsewhere.
 
429Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 01:56
Are you sure a Dem didn't try to change the 'misery index'?


Guess this didn't happen
 
430Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 08:17
Still waiting for a fact and reason supported comment from Jag on the NYT article. Since the article he's posted 5 times on the topic. I count two completely unrelated analogies with no explanation for how they could possibly be associated with the article, one unsourced attempt to debunk a claim the Times article never made and six insults broadly levied at forum members.


The Misery Index
While you waste time defending your contentions about the misery index, you refuse to explain what on earth it has to do with this discussion.
 
431Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 08:26
Walk and PD posted links debunking the NYT article. The quesion now is not whether it is debunked, but why they would print such drivel.
 
432Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 08:42
I do wish you'd invest in a dictionary and look up 'debunk'.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

No, the Times' claims have not been debunked. Their methodology was sufficiently expossed as flawed by PD's second link in 415. The first link in that post and Walk's link in 417 add about as much as your posts here have on the topic: almost nothing.

But since I doubt you even read the Times article in the first place, I doubt you could have figured that out, even if you were capable of objectivity in the first place. You haven't even shown in any of your posts that you understand the conclusion the Times arrived at wih their data.
 
433Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 09:38
de·bunk
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)dē-ˈbəŋk\
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1923
: to expose the sham or falseness of
 
434Perm Dude
      ID: 29028188
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 09:55
1. Just as soon as I think Jag couldn't possibly sink any lower about his claims about Democrats, here he is generalizing about an election year claim by John Kerry that Democrats are changing standard economic indicator definitions. If you are going to start taking candidates' election claims at face value, Jag, I've got several large bridges to sell you.

I think Kerry's point was stilted, awkward, and poorly made (much like John Kerry, now that I think about it). But the key thing that you completely missed is that Kerry was specifically talking about a Middle Class Misery Index. Ooops! Missed that, did you? What a surprise!

2. I think MITH covered this better than I did, but I have to agree with him that no one has "debunked" anything about the Times article. The lack of statistical rigor in their study doesn't mean it is bunk. Only that it isn't proof. Without statistical methods being applied we can't make the claim one way or the other.
 
435Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 13:56
The lack of statistical rigor in their study doesn't mean it is bunk. Only that it isn't proof. Without statistical methods being applied we can't make the claim one way or the other.

Their claim is bunk. It's based on nothing, but claims to be supprted by a statistical study.

A claim that is based on stats that are bunk is bunk. It's BS.

Saying they may be right or they may be wrong doesn't make their claim that they have conducted a "study" less bunk.

 
436sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 14:13
Not registered with NYT so I cant access the article itself; but in the original link to that article, there is no claim made by the Times to have conducted a "study". They draw a conclusion, which would imply a study, but it appears from I can read of it; that they only purport to have "found" XYZ numbers of allegations. From those findings, they (erroneously) draw conclusions. But to claim to have "debunked" their study, when no claim of a study is present...is no less ingenuous than the allegations being cast AT the Times by those doing so on this forum. (DISC: If in the article itself they do in fact contend to have conducted a "study"; then disregard my "defense" of their article.)
 
437Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 14:22
The claim is based on more than their flawed study. If you come to what is an otherwise logical conclusion even though some of the evidence you cite is useless, the whole idea isn't proven wrong.
 
438biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Tue, Jan 22, 2008, 23:18
Cactus, over at angry bear models combat troops returning home, and shows a moderate up-tick in the murder rate.
 
439Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 06:59
Without even determining who commoted the murders, right?
 
440biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 08:00
Right. This is merely suggestive of a relationship. There could be other causes related to demobilization causing the murder rate to increase.
 
441Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 11:25


A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued 935 false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.
The study counted 935 false statements in the two-year period. It found that in speeches, briefings, interviews and other venues, Bush and administration officials stated unequivocally on at least 532 occasions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or was trying to produce or obtain them or had links to al-Qaida or both.

"It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida," according to Charles Lewis and Mark Reading-Smith of the Fund for Independence in Journalism staff members, writing an overview of the study. "In short, the Bush administration led the nation to war on the basis of erroneous information that it methodically propagated and that culminated in military action against Iraq on March 19, 2003." "The cumulative effect of these false statements -- amplified by thousands of news stories and broadcasts -- was massive, with the media coverage creating an almost impenetrable din for several critical months in the run-up to war," the study concluded.

"Some journalists -- indeed, even some entire news organizations -- have since acknowledged that their coverage during those prewar months was far too deferential and uncritical. These mea culpas notwithstanding, much of the wall-to-wall media coverage provided additional, 'independent' validation of the Bush administration's false statements about Iraq," it said.

The Center for Public Integrity

Looking at the list of studies and stories on this great website, I can't imagine that Fox News has its director on their speed dial.

Example: Baghdad Bonanza - U.S. government contracts in Iraq and Afghanistan grew from $11 billion in 2004 to more than $25 billion in 2006, a Center study shows, with KBR topping the list and more than $20 billion in contracts going to unidentified companies.

Good stuff.
 
442Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 11:57
I did a study of my own and found the Clintons have made over 1.4 million false statements in the last 2 years. The Clintons average a false statement every minute, that is 60 per hour, multiple that by an average of 16 awaken hours, times 730 days and double it. There is a plus or minus 2% error chance in my study.
 
443Perm Dude
      ID: 6013239
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 11:59
Luckily half the country wasn't listening to them at the time. And we didn't go to war over them.
 
444sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:01
and the point of 442 exactly, is......?????? (
 
445walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:02
And, giving your Jag study the credibility it so deserves, those false Clintonia statements led to what catastrophic war, resulting in many lost lives, wounded, trillions of $, increased anti-Americansism, and untold losses in the future? If we ass-u-me that they all lie, then does not the point be "what are they lying about?" and "what are the consequences of the lies?" Are you abel to equate the lies of the two administrations in terms of consequences to the country?
 
446Perm Dude
      ID: 6013239
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:14
"Clinton lied, nobody died..."
 
447Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:17
There is quite a few false statements by the guy talking about Bush's false statements.

"It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida,"

It is not beyond dispute on either of these points.

Zen, for your own sake, I suggest you seek mental health assistance. This obsession against the Bush administration couple with the schizophrenia effects of pot can lead to a severe breakdown. You are one toke away from wandering the streets in urine and Marijuanna smoke soaked pants, muttering "Bush sux" "Bush sux".



 
448sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:20
It is not beyond dispute on either of these points.

Maybe not for shrub apologists, but for the rest of the world it most certainly is.
 
449Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:21
Go F yourself, pathetic troll.
 
450Perm Dude
      ID: 6013239
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:22
Jag continues to dream, eh?
 
451Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:29
You guys never consider the millions of lives saved, because we entered Iraq.
 
452biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:30
?

All those children of Halliburton execs would have died of caviar withdrawal?
 
453sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:31
?

Finally done it Jag. Made a post, demonsrating once and for all, you have nothing worth hearing to say.
 
454Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:43
Sarge, you may want to equate Saddam with Mother Teresa, but I sleep better knowing a madman with unlimited financial resources is 4 feet under ground. This is not really a topic for debate, because, thanks to President Bush, it is hypothetical.
 
455WiddleAvi
      ID: 251113917
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:51
Jag - Oh! is that what this war is about ? We are just going around the world getting rid of all the bad guys ?
 
456sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 12:56
Stereo-typical strawman Jag. Show me the post, any post, where anyone on this forum has equated Saddam to Mother Teresa.

And then explain just how the removal of Saddam from power, proves any link between Saddam and AQ, or the presence of WMDs, or saved millions of lives.
 
457Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 13:06
It is beyond dispute (I am starting to like this line) that Hussein would of tried some sort of attack on America. The only question is the type of attack and whether or not if he would of been successful.
 
458Boldwin
      ID: 1055190
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 13:09
Would've.
 
459sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 13:13
...some sort of attack... could include 3 POd Cub-Scouts with a slingshot. Conjecture, specualtion and blatant BS wont cut it JAG.

You said:

You guys never consider the millions of lives saved, because we entered Iraq.

and when challenged your response was:

Sarge, you may want to equate Saddam with Mother Teresa...

and when challenged on that statement you respond with;

It is beyond dispute (I am starting to like this line) that Hussein would of tried some sort of attack on America. The only question is the type of attack and whether or not if he would of been successful.


Now, are you truly implying that Saddam had the ability to physically threaten the very existance of MILLIONS of Americans? And where is your proof re the WMDs and the ties between Iraq and AQ?

Cease with changing the subject, and respond directly to those challenges which directly face-off against your comments.
 
460Perm Dude
      ID: 6013239
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 13:17
ROFL! Yes, Hussein would have attacked the US. With his strong rhetoric and body odor.

The problem here is not only that the Administration can't pick its targets, but its apologists continue to excuse the bad ones.

Saddam Hussein was a petty dictator, bully, and tyrant. He wasn't a terrorist. His only interest was in Saddam, not in some violent ideological struggle.
 
461Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 14:06
"It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida,"

it was beyond dispute more than 3 years ago. get your head out of your ass and pay attention to reality. it's people like you - who can't even acknowledge that maybe it was a mistake attacking Iraq - that will doom us to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

It is beyond dispute (I am starting to like this line) that Hussein would of tried some sort of attack on America.

how? how would this have been possible? with a slingshot and rocks? a pea shooter and tiny stones?

 
462biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 14:14
You don't have to believe us pinko commies. Believe tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum:

Bush, Cheney admit no WMD.
 
463walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 14:16
#458, LOL!

Jag, I think ultimately, you can default to: "we'll never really know, will we?" However, I also think, it's pretty much consensus, conventional wisdom, except for die-hards like Cheney, Rummy and I guess yourself (and folks like yourself, who are minority in this country and in the world) who think that Saddam would of (aaar) attacked the U.S. I think it's a far more plausible argument that we attacked Iraq and used the "he would have attacked us" as an excuse. There is not much, if any, evidence the Saddam was planning an attack on the U.S. and no evidence that he had ties with Al Quaida. Yet, you continue to believe that Cheney/Bush potentially saved millions as a result of our intervention. As you can tell by the more humorous replies, it's really a laughable argument at this point in history, but I bet it feels good to sorta believe it (no way would they do otherwise!). Maybe even the notion could be that those leaders of ours really thought that Saddam was going to do it, but they were wrong, found out they were wrong, and lied about it. How can they not? Who's going to admit, especially leaders like Bush and Cheney who have rarely admitted mistakes (most don't, so they are not alone there), that they made the biggest mistake of the last xx years? As long as they don't admit it, then some folks aint never gonna believe they made a mistake. You may be one of them (or you may just be having a go at us, which is still a theory round these parts).

Bush/Cheney have to stick to this argument cos the real reasons we went into Iraq, oil, (de)stabilization, permanent presence, build-up of private companies sub-contracted out to the war, show of strength to the U.S. public that we were going to be aggressive in the war on terror, just cannot be disclosed and would never be acceptable, even to loyalists.

So, to reiterate today's theme, Bush/Cheney lied about all this.
 
465Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 14:29
It is beyond dispute (I am starting to like this line) that Hussein would of tried some sort of attack on America.

Please. Not only is there no evidence to support this, there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that he was willing to risk his obscenely decadent lifestyle on even an indirect attack on the US. He was ruthless, sadistic and plenty enough other terrible things but he was also smart enough to know how to stay alive and in power and therefore too smart to commit any acts against the US that would spark his demise.

Jag can semi-sarcastically accuse war opposers of putting Saddam on some kind of pedistal but in the end it he still exposes his own inability to objectively consider exactly what Saddam Hussein was and was not. Sure he had the means to commit such an attck and possibly the desire. But he didn't have anything close to the conviction required to be willing to sacrifice his power and lifestyle.

Being the sadist he was might qualify him as insane but not in a way that made him seek to harm the US at any great personal cost.
 
466walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 14:34
Right MITH, the motivation was not there. Why muck up a good thing? ("it's good to be the king").
 
467Wilmer McLean
      ID: 170292312
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 02:05
U.S. Strikes Iraq for Plot to Kill Bush

By David Von Drehle and R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, June 27, 1993; Page A01

U.S. Navy ships launched 23 Tomahawk missiles against the headquarters of the Iraqi Intelligence Service yesterday in what President Clinton said was a "firm and commensurate" response to Iraq's plan to assassinate former president George Bush in mid-April.

The attack was meant to strike at the building where Iraqi officials had plotted against Bush, organized other unspecified terrorist actions and directed repressive internal security measures, senior U.S. officials said.

Clinton, speaking in a televised address to the nation at 7:40 last night, said he ordered the attack to send three messages to the Iraqi leadership: "We will combat terrorism. We will deter aggression. We will protect our people."

Clinton said he ordered the attack after receiving "compelling evidence" from U.S. intelligence officials that Bush had been the target of an assassination plot and that the plot was "directed and pursued by the Iraqi Intelligence Service."

"It was an elaborate plan devised by the Iraqi government and directed against a former president of the United States because of actions he took as president," Clinton said. Bush led the coalition that drove Iraq from Kuwait in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "As such, the Iraqi attack against President Bush was an attack against our country and against all Americans," Clinton said.

 
468sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 08:56
A plan from 1993, for which we had already retaliated, does not justify an invasion 9 years later on the premise that an imminent danger is posed.
 
469Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 10:43
The Mother Teresea was a bit of an exaggeration, but there is no doubt the Bush-Haters have down played the threat Hussein was and targeted those, that the Bush administration back, as dangerous. Time and time again, I see Liberals, on these boards and in general, adopt philosophies that are simply the opposite of whatever Bush supports. It shows a disingenuousness and lowers the validity of Liberal opinions.
 
470Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 10:50
That Saddam had made no further attempts to attack American targets in the US in the 10 years that followed the 1993 missile strike serves as further evidence that a military or terrorist assault to antagonize the US (which is all he could accomplish, of course) was not an endeavor worth the risk to his life and position as Iraqi dictator. If you think Saddam might not have believed such a risk was very high, the American conquer of Afghanistan following 9/11 pretty easily squashes that.

The right's insistance that Saddam would have attacked the United States is not only completely baselass but directly contrary to the typical actions of a globally hated despot who had managed to stay in power since the 1970s.
 
471walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 10:52
I don't think that's fair, #469. I am liberal and I disagree vehemently with many of Bush's policies. It's not so far-fetched to realize that neoconservative policies, that are also poorly implemented in many instances, run counter to liberal thinking. You're putting me in a tough spot saying that folks like me, who disagree with Bush on so many things are being unfair. We have, in many cases, diametrically opposite viewpoints. It's not disingenous at all...particularly in light of the poorly implemented neocon policies (i.e. if his stuff had worked, then your points could have some more validity).
 
472Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 10:57
There is absolutely 0 policies Bush could implement, that would not get ripped by the Left
 
473walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 11:20
I thought going into Afghanistan was the right thing.
 
474Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 11:31
What about subsidizing prescription medicine for the elderly?
 
475Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 11:32
It shows a disingenuousness and lowers the validity of Liberal opinions.

That's because you aren't very smart to begin with and then choose to see only what you want in people. The left side of this forum almost unanimously supported Bush's invasion and conquer of Afghanistan. I, myself, supported the buildup and tough stance on Iraq in late 2002 and for a brief time in 2003, I even supported the case for the war in Iraq.

There is absolutely 0 policies Bush could implement, that would not get ripped by the Left

I just cited one, the invasion and conquer of Afghanistan. It's difficult to find many more because this President has explicitly chosen to disregard compromise and bipartisanship in favor of catering to half the country while doing his best to shut the other half out of the process. Or did you think he meant something other than such a mandate when he claimed to have the "will of the people" folowing the 2004 election and that he fully intended to "spend" the "political capitol" he earned from his 51%? You can't expect people to go along with initiatives that were made while they were overtly and deliberately shut out of the process.

But since you ignorantly believe that left-leaning concepts are generally fallacies anyway and follow that people who subscribe to them can only be either stupid or opposed to the good of the country, you judge pepole in ways that forces them to fit into these simplistic and narrow assumptions, rather than consider the possibility that they have applied themselves to various ideas and came to their conclusions through objective judgement and reflection.

By all means, come to this forum and regularly insult 80+% of the people while displaying a refusal to do a fraction of the objective research that most of them contribute. Continue to call us morons and faggots and when it gets heated, always hide behind the charge that we can't recogniize sarcasm or take a joke. It's exactly what is expected of you.

It's sad that Baldwin has so lowered his game and is so desperate for allies that he's willing to chum up with any exclusively Republican voting dolt that comes along. But the rest of us (including most of remaining long time right-leaning posters) recognized your ignorance and uselessness here from the first day you posted.
 
476walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 11:33
Does not work, at least not for my 76 year old mom in South Florida. She says she pays 3x more than she used to for her meds since that new policy was implemented. Admittedly (something I feel you don't often say as a qualifier in any Jag arguments), I have done not other research beyond this case study.
 
477Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 11:47
It's sad that Baldwin has so lowered his game and is so desperate for allies that he's willing to chum up with any exclusively Republican voting dolt that comes along. But the rest of us (including most of remaining long time right-leaning posters) recognized your ignorance and uselessness here from the first day you posted.

funny, i was thinking this exact same thing yesterday. those that lean left on this board have no problem calling out their fellow similarly-leaning posters - lord knows i've been called out a million times, and often by you.

but Baldwin - who is probably among the most right-leaning posters here and who used to often back up everything he posted (even if the source was questionable, at least there was a source!) - now has been reduced to "Rah rah rah" every time Jag posts.
 
478Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 11:50
I have checked into it and it is a failure, but I believe it reflects more on the dangers of socialized medicine than on Bush. If we can't get the simple task of providing the elderly with needed medicine, there is little hope for efficiently running the entire healthcare system.
 
479Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:04
those that lean left on this board have no problem calling out their fellow similarly-leaning posters - lord knows i've been called out a million times, and often by you.

Yeah I always laugh when Jag or Box refers to the posters here as home-teamers or whatever it is they say.
 
480Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:06
Mith, I don't recall calling anyone a faggot. Care to direct me to that post?

how? how would this have been possible? with a slingshot and rocks? a pea shooter and tiny stones?

How about biological weapons? A person with almost unlimited funds could easily developed a muntant strain of the SARS virus and hide their research as medical study.

I never cared about chemical WMD, but biological ones scare the hell out of me.

 
481sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:08
chem is WAY easier, and WAY cheaper.
 
482Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:14
And damn near impossible to implement in the states.

Biological weapons would not be easy create. It would take a madman leader of a country with extreme wealth to pull it off.
 
483walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:18
Yes, someone would have to be a madman to pull it off, but not all madmen are the same. Saddam was a madman, but a man in love with power...he was not seeking take over the world, or the U.S., as this was not feasible. Mad does not equal stupid. So, while he gassed his own people, attacking us with WMDs of any kind would mean suicide...end of good times. It is a myth (not a MITH) to assume that just cos he was a tyrant and tortured his people and engaged in wars in the middle east, he wanted to start a (suicidal) war with the U.S.
 
484Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:18
Care to direct me to that post?

I was referring to your categorization of Walk as gay for having lived in San Francisco. My apologies if you claim exclusive rights to all exagerations here.
 
485sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:18
let me say it again...way easier. That means easier to develop, easier to deploy, easier to use.

with something on the order of 5% or less of inbound cargo containers being searched, if 100 such containers were shipped, one could/would expect that approx 95 of them would get through.

The idea of 95 milvan containers being trucked across the country, with chems inside just waiting for detonation; is far and away scarier and more feasible than an extensive bio program aimed at crippling our nation.
 
486Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:24
Post 483

It's also something that almost definitely could not have been conducted in secret. Any explicit claim from Iraq that they were using such agents for the purpose of medical research (as suggested) would not fly in the world community and would have greatly expanded the case for war at home and abroad.
 
487Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:30
No other plan of attack against the U.S. is feasible. I believe Saddam was crazy to think he could spread a virus and it not even get traced back to him. He would have no other options to strike back at us.

If you think this scenerio is crazy, it is not half as insane as the Democrats idea of national security is overregulating our cargo companies, when any rapist, axe murderer or terrorists can stroll across the border from Mexico.

 
488sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:32
Your misplaced paranoia and inflated sense of self are incredible to watch jag. Please continue to entertain us. (And what of the axe murderers, rapists and terrorists strolling acros the Canadian border? Or would you have us wall that one too?)
 
489Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:34
Equipment for biological weapons would be no different that used for DNA research.
 
490sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:36
And we all know what a world leader Iraq is in the field of DNA research, dont we?
 
491Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:42
I believe Saddam was crazy to think he could spread a virus and it not even get traced back to him.

Of course you do. Why would you start applying logic and reason to your opinions now? Crazy? I wouldn't call it that, just completely baseless. If Saddam had exhibited a suicide bomber-like desire to harm the US even at great personal cost, I might agree. But since no evidence of behavior indicative of such relentless ambition exists, I'll go with what we actually know about him, without your creative embellishments.
 
492Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:46
now i know why i don't watch Sitcoms anymore. the last four posts by Jag are something that Hollyweird just can't write...
 
493Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:50
Typical Liberal mentality, trying to turn a problem into a racial issue. It is because of people like you criminals can cross the border easily and commit violent crimes. It is because of people like you, illegal immigrants can over tax our social programs. It is because of people like you, Latin gangs have become out of control. It is because of people like you, jobs are lost to people that shouldn't be here.
 
494sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:51
Indeed Tree. You're spot on with that observation.


and FTR Jag...you're dead wrong here;

No other plan of attack against the U.S. is feasible.

I'll not go into details, but a virtually unstoppable method of terror attack upon the US is entirely possible. The only possible prevention, is with extreme human intel. (Infiltration of the organizations which might consider such an attack.) Let's just say the "attack plan" I created while undergoing counter-terrorism training with the Army, was rated with a very high probability of success, assuming we lacked the requisite humint.
 
495Jag
      ID: 360261522
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 12:58
I agree Sarge, I have thought of attacks that are unstoppable, but none as deadly. Human intel is the key aka wire tapping.
 
496sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 13:00
how does one tap a wire, with wireless communications? You're still stuck in the 50s it appears. Humint, involves infiltration of the organizations. You're referring to Elint (electronic intel), and that would not necessarily detect let alone prevent, the kind of numbing attack I envisioned.
 
498Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 13:01
Terrorism in general is virtually unstoppable. Generally speaking, if someone wants badly enough to hurt you that they are willing to sacrifice their own life in the process, the have a pretty decent chance to succeed if they plan carefully enough. Fortunately, there aren't as many terrorists bent on killing Americans out there as the neocon fearmongers wish for us to believe.
 
499sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 13:05
Indeed MITH. And that is the true crux of the problem or difficulty in the task, of counter-terrorism. Vaults work for the bank, because the thief not only wants to get in, but out again. The terrorist organizations, recruit and train suicide attackers, with no objective of getting back out. Just as ANY vault can be penetrated if the attacker cares not one whit for escape, so too can almost any physical security plan be defeated, if ingress is the objective with no concern to egress.
 
500Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 14:54
Typical Liberal mentality, trying to turn a problem into a racial issue.

did i miss something? where was the race card played in the last 20 posts in this thread, prior to yours?
 
501Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 14:55
I believe he's referring to post 488.
 
502sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 14:59
In which case MITH, he missed my point entirely. (Not that I am surprised by that concept.)

The 9/11 terrorists, entered the US via the US-Canadian border, not the US-Mexican border. Therefore, beefed up security along the southern border, would have accomplished absolutely zilch, in terms of prevention/delay of that terrorist attack. So my question becomes, if the intent of border security enhancement is indeed NATIONAL security, why does the right tend to ignore the northern border, in calling for fences, moats, crocodiles or whatever other BS they can come up with?
 
503Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 15:04
I believe he's referring to post 488.

that's what i presumed too. especially since that post has nothing to do with race, it would make perfect sense for Jag to think it did.
 
504walk
      ID: 590432617
      Sun, Jan 27, 2008, 10:37
NY Times Editorial on Iraq Vets "War Torn" (crimes) Series
 
505walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Jan 28, 2008, 13:48
Saddam's Interrogator (Piro) Interview on 60 Minutes

Did anyone see this segment of 60 Minutes last night? I saw half of it. Very interesting. Piro, the interrogator, indicated that Saddam never admitted he did not have WMD cos it would make him look weak to his people and to Iran. He thought Bush would engage in air strikes, but never thought Bush would engage in a ground war resulting in Saddam's removal from power. This was a surprise to him, even as we massed at his border. Piro said that Saddam said that he was right in doing the things he did as a leader, including gassing the Kurds.

The article above talks about how the FBI never used coercive techniques, that they would not work on Saddam, but also cos it's against FBI policy. Interesting.

Piro also said that Saddam said that he (Saddam) gave the orders to destroy WMD, and what he did not destroy, the UN inspectors did. However, Saddam said he would try to get all kinds of WMD back one day, nuclear, bio, chem, and I think this is the point Cheney/Bush make -- that eventually he would have these weapons and either use them or sell them, and so we had to take him out. I don't buy it, but just presenting the other side, sorta.

Saddam also thought Osama was a fanatic, and wanted nothing to do with him.
 
506walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Jan 28, 2008, 13:50
60 Minutes Piro (Saddam Interrogator) Interview here
 
507Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Mon, Jan 28, 2008, 14:01
Did anyone see this segment of 60 Minutes last night?

I saw the whole piece last night. It was very well done and that FBI agent is amazing in the way he handled Saddam. Piro was pretty firm in stating that they never coerced Saddam. It did take months to get information out of him though, but I suppose we may have had the luxury of time with Saddam which is something we won't have with terrorists.

Saddam essentially thought that we would do airstrikes because that's what we did in the past. He liked Reagan and Clinton, but hated Bush I & II. He also said he never used body doubles and that he wrote his own speeches.

From the sound of things he didn't care much for his two sons. He told the agent "You can't control who your kids are."

Apparently Saddam considered OBL to be a threat to Iraq in addition to a fanatic.
 
508Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jan 28, 2008, 14:23
If you believe Saddam was successfully interrogated, this interview is yet more strong evidence that there was never any significant threat from Iraq.
 
509walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Jan 28, 2008, 14:43
Yes, it was very interesting. I was amazed how this interview got on TV, as it sorta makes a strong case that Iraq was not a threat (although like I said, I think Saddam's comments that he intended to rebuild his WMD program could be construed as: "See, it was just a matter of time (till he got us)...yeah, right), and that Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld were off-base.

I also amazed to hear that we have only 50 of several thousand FBI agents who speak Arabic. This was how Piro, after 5 months or so, was able to get Saddam to confide in him. Talking, listening to his poetry (oy veh!), building a relationship, trust, etc. No waterboarding here!
 
510Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jan 28, 2008, 15:53
comments that he intended to rebuild his WMD program could be construed as: "See, it was just a matter of time

I know you're just playing devil's advocate but I think several excerpts easily counter this. Along precisely the lines I argued in posts 465, 470, 486 and 491, that Saddam was too concerned with his status and power to consider risking it:
"He told me that most of the WMD had been destroyed by the U.N. inspectors in the '90s. And those that hadn't been destroyed by the inspectors were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq," Piro says.

"So why keep the secret? Why put your nation at risk, why put your own life at risk to maintain this charade?" Pelley asks.

"It was very important for him to project that because that was what kept him, in his mind, in power. That capability kept the Iranians away. It kept them from reinvading Iraq," Piro says.

Before his wars with America, Saddam had fought a ruinous eight year war with Iran and it was Iran he still feared the most.

"He believed that he couldn't survive without the perception that he had weapons of mass destruction?" Pelley asks.

"Absolutely," Piro says.
When you're one of the most ruthless and hated dictators in the world, everything you do is checked against (if not done in support of) your hold on your power. As I've repeatedly said, Someone in Saddam's position doesn't stay in power for 25 years by committing atrocities against American civilians inside the United States. He had a pretty good view of what happened to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

His mistake was thinking Bush's War on Terror really was only about fighting terrorism and that since he didn't have any role in 9/11, the American offensive wouldn't amount to much more than a relatively minor bombing campaign.

He didn't count on a President who was so eager to invade Iraq that he would to mislead his own people into a completely unprecedented preventive full-scale 'invade and conquer' mission, or that he would even weaken his fight against the real terrorists who had attacked America in order to see it happen.
 
511sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 13:40
Soldier suicides up 20% over last year. Self-inflcited wounds and attempted suicides up 6-fold over 2002


Illustrative IMHO, of what war does to people.
 
512Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 22:03
The surge is working?

US forces invited families who fled Arab Jabour to return, and promised that security and assistance to rebuild their lives, just four weeks before the bombing raids that resulted in the deaths of more than 500 civilians, it has emerged.

Joseph Inge, fourth brigade, third American infantry division, went on the Arabic radio station Radio Sawa to claim that his forces, with the aid of the Awakening forces had been able to clear out the last strongholds of AlQaeda in the regions of Arab Jabour and Al-Buaitha south of Baghdad, and called on the families to return to the area, promising every type of support and assistance to those families.

A American Forces Press Service report dated December 14, 2007, talks of how normalcy is returning to Arab Jabour, which the US forces had "liberated" from the insurgents.

But the same source, in a news article dated January 22, 2007 announcing the "successful completion of the blitz", describes the mostly Sunni district as an "al-Qaeda sanctuary".

By its own admission, the US forces drop 114,000 pounds of bombs during the ten-day raid on the district of 120,000, but claimed that there were no casualties.

But local authorities and Sunni politicians told Arabic language media that at least 500 people, mostly women and children, were killed in the air raids.

"Try dropping 100,000 pounds bombs on Syracuse, New York, which has a similar population, and see if you get no casualties," a Sunni politician, who wished to remain anonymous on the grounds that US-trained death-squads target politicians who criticize American military action, said.


More on the bombing of Arab Jabour from
Tom Englehardt

As far as we know, there were no reporters, Iraqi or Western, in Arab Jabour when the bombs fell and, Iraq being Iraq, no American reporters rushed there - in person or by satellite phone - to check out the damage. In Iraq and Afghanistan, when it comes to the mainstream media, bombing is generally only significant if it's of the roadside or suicide variety; if, that is, the "bombs" can be produced at approximately "the cost of a pizza", (as IEDs sometimes are), or if the vehicles delivering them are cars or simply fiendishly well-rigged human bodies. From the air, even 45,000 kilograms of bombs just doesn't have the ring of something that matters.

Some of this, of course, comes from the Pentagon's success in creating a dismissive, sanitizing language in which to frame war from the air. "Collateral damage" stands in for the civilian dead - even though in much of modern war, the collateral damage could be considered the dead soldiers, not the ever-rising percentage of civilian casualties. And death is, of course, delivered "precisely" by "precision-guided" weaponry. All this makes air war seem sterile, even virginal. Army Colonel Terry Ferrell, for instance, described the air assaults in Arab Jabour in this disembodied way at a Baghdad news conference:
The purpose of these particular strikes was to shape the battlefield and take out known threats before our ground troops move in. Our aim was to neutralize any advantage the enemy could claim with the use of IEDs and other weapons.


So, when McCain agrees that our military might need to stay in Iraq for 100 years, he probably means it. More from Englehardt:

In these past years, the Pentagon has invested billions of dollars in building up an air-power infrastructure in and around Iraq. As a start, it constructed one of its largest foreign bases anywhere on the planet about 80 kilometers north of Baghdad. Balad Air Base has been described by Newsweek as a "15-square-mile mini-city of thousands of trailers and vehicle depots", whose air fields handle 27,500 takeoffs and landings every month.

Reputedly "second only to London's Heathrow Airport in traffic worldwide", it is said to handle congestion similar to that of Chicago's O'Hare International Airport. With about 140,000 tons a year of cargo moving through it, the base is "the busiest aerial port" in the global domains of the Department of Defense.

National Public Radio's Defense correspondent Guy Raz paid a visit to the base last year and termed it "a giant construction site ... [T]he sounds of construction and the hum of generators seem to follow visitors everywhere. Seen from the sky at night, the base resembles Las Vegas: while the surrounding Iraqi villages get about 10 hours of electricity a day, the lights never go out at Balad Air Base."

This gargantuan feat of construction is designed for the military long haul. As Josh White of the Washington Post reported recently in a relatively rare (and bland) summary piece on the use of air power in Iraq, there were five times as many US air strikes in 2007 as in 2006; and 2008 has, of course, started off with a literal bang from those 45,000 kilograms of explosives dropped southeast of Baghdad. That poundage assumedly includes the 18,000 kilograms of explosives, which got modest headlines for being delivered in a mere 10 minutes in the Arab Jabour area the previous week, but not the 7,200 kilograms of explosives that White reports being used north of Baghdad in approximately the same period; nor, evidently, another 6,800 kilograms of explosives dropped on Arab Jabour more recently. (And none of these numbers seem to include US Marine Corps figures for Iraq, which have evidently not been released.





 
513walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 13:55
Mentally Disabled Women Used as Suicide Bombers

Very fcuked up...potentially using folks that may not be aware of what they were doing. I'm not sure how they could be sure these women were mentally retarded, or that it was Al Quaida (it's always AQ, even though they represent a minority of the insurgents we fight). However, regardless, this is even more disturbing than it already is ("but the surge is working!").

I like Obama's comments in response to the successful surge: "If the surge is working, then we have set our standards and expectations below the sand."
 
514Boldwin
      ID: 1055190
      Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 14:31
Half these bombers are kids who could be talked into anything, guys handcuffed to steering wheels, people with their families held hostage until they obey their orders, etc. The truth is very ugly and not so close to the impression people have of the 'recruitment' process. This is true of terorism all over.

I am reminded of the Irish man who was ordered to drive into a police station, while his family was held at gunpoint, the reports of carbombers in Iraq handcuffed to the steering wheels, women with guns trained on their backs and babies held hostage, forced to walk up to allied lines in Iraq, the stories of some young Palestinian homicide bombers who were thwarted and interviewed, etc.
 
515bibA
      ID: 53143415
      Tue, Feb 05, 2008, 21:47
Iraqi scientist gave CIA information that should have prevented war

Kinda sad, but it rings true.
 
516walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:21
Euro Anger Over Iraq Affecting Efforts in Afghanistan

Kinda messed up. Another piece of data showing how the ill-advised and ill-conceived war in Iraq has hurt our other efforts. All according to our own Defense Sec.
 
517Wilmer McLean
      ID: 151131315
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:26
Iraqi Lawmakers Pass 3 Crucial Laws

NY Times
February 14, 2008

Using old-fashioned behind-the-scenes politicking, Iraq’s Parliamentary leaders pushed through three divisive laws that had been delayed for months by bitter maneuvering between factions and, recently, threats to dissolve the legislative body.

More than any legislation approved so far, the three measures have the potential to spur reconciliation between Sunnis and Shiites and set the country on the road to a more representative government.

The three laws are the 2008 budget, a law outlining the scope of provincial powers — a crucial aspect of Iraq’s self-definition as a federal state — and an amnesty that will cover thousands of the detainees held in Iraqi jails, including thousands of Sunnis, many of whom have been held without charges for months and, in a few cases, more than a year. It will be the largest release at one time since 2003.

The freeing of detainees who have not been charged has been a headline issue for Sunni legislators in Parliament and for the Sunni vice-president, Tariq al-Hashimi, who have charged that the Shiite-dominated security forces have charged many innocent Sunnis with being members of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, an extremist Sunni group that American intelligence says is foreign-led.

The three measures were put to a vote as a single package and passed Wednesday afternoon. There were 206 legislators of the 275-member body at the session, according to the Parliament’s press office. “Today we have a wedding party for the Iraqi parliament,” said Mahmoud Mashadani, the speaker, who is a Sunni. “We have proved that Iraqis are one bloc and parliament is able to find solutions that represent all Iraqis.”

Khalid al-Attiya, the deputy speaker and a Shiite beamed as he told reporters right after the vote that the laws had passed “unanimously.”

“It is a big achievement,” he said and promised that approval of the budget and spending associated with it would translate into as many as 700,000 new jobs for Iraqis.

Even factions that did not agree with some of the measures, said they did not want to vote against the measures but allowed those members who disagreed with the measure to leave the chamber for the vote. “The Iraqiya List did not want to create a political crisis in a time when the country has suffered a lot, “ said Aliya Nesayef, a member of the Iraqiya List, which agreed with the amnesty law but was uncomfortable with both the budget and the provincial powers law.

Passage of the measures represent a significant achievement for the Iraqi Parliament, which on many days could not muster a quorum. The approach of voting on the three laws together broke the logjam because it allowed every group to boast that they had a win. Leaders of the blocs — Shiite, Sunni and Kurd — realized that while no one of the laws could pass on its own, together they offered something for each political constituency. So factions would swallow the measures they liked less in order to get the one they wanted.

The Kurds wanted the budget in its current form, which guarantees the regional government 17 percent of the country’s revenues after subtracting the costs of federal ministries that serve the entire country, like Foreign Affairs and Defense.

The Sunnis wanted the amnesty because about 80 percent of the more than 26,000 detainees in Iraqi jails are Sunnis. About half of all detainees have not been sentenced.

Most Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds wanted the provincial powers measure because they are eager to ensure that substantial power rests in the provinces rather than the central government. For all three groups, former President Saddam Hussein’s strong centralized bureaucracy, which strictly controlled all decisions, was anathema. They see a more decentralized power structure as a better guarantee of freedoms and rights.

The only controversy was over the inclusion of a date for holding provincial elections. Two political parties, one Shiite and one Sunni, stand to lose control of one or more provincial councils. Those groups would prefer to defer the vote indefinitely. But the majority, supported setting a date certain and Mr. Mashadani, the speaker, forced the inclusion of a date at the last minute. The provincial elections must be held by Oct. 1.

The Bush administration has pushed hard for passage of the provincial powers law, and President Bush has said he would like to see new provincial elections held before the end of his term.

Supporters of the American troop increase in 2007 touted it as a way to stabilize the country, bringing Iraqi politicians the political space they needed to pass legislation that could pave the way for reconciliation between the sects. For months it appeared that little was moving on the political front, but now it seems that the decline in violence did contribute to a change in the atmosphere.

After the laws are approved by the Presidency Council — in this case a pro forma step since all of the political blocs agreed to their passage — they will be published. The particulars of the laws remained unclear in part because changes were made in the last minutes of the legislative process

However, embedded in each of the measures are the same problems that created the controversy in the first place. For instance, on the budget, the size of the Kurdish share has merely been deferred for a year. The 17 percent agreement is only for this year; next year it will be re-negotiated and there is a strong push to reduce their share.

On the provincial powers law, which includes a requirement that elections be held next fall, there are serious problems with the election commission both at the national and provincial level, raising questions about whether a vote will be viewed as fair or merely deepen divisions among and within sects. Worries about that could end up delaying the elections.

And, still left out of the political bargain are the newly formed Awakening Councils, which are predominantly Sunni and in many cases represent powerful tribes. They have taken the lead in fighting extremist Sunni groups, and now their leaders are clambering for a place at the table. They are outraged that the Iraqi Islamic Party, which is Sunni but has limited grass-roots support, dominates the provincial council in Anbar.

“In Anbar Province we want the provincial council disbanded and another one formed, we want elections to be held in March or April and we want the Iraqi Islamic Party to leave the province in 30 days,” said Sheikh Ali Hatem, one of the leaders of the Anbar Awakening, who survived a suicide bomb attack earlier this week.

There appeared to be little chance of elections before the fall.

 
518Wilmer McLean
      ID: 151131315
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 02:56
Iraq deputies pass landmark bills

BBC
Wednesday, 13 February 2008

Iraqi MPs have made an breakthrough in parliament by passing three important laws after weeks of delays and brinkmanship between rival factions.
The legislation sets a budget, provides for a limited amnesty for detainees, and defines the relationship between Baghdad and local authorities.

The third law is necessary before provincial elections can be held.

The move comes a day after the assembly was adjourned amid acrimony and calls for its dissolution.

Speaker Mahmoud Mashhadani had complained that distrust was paralysing the chamber.

The BBC's Jim Muir in Baghdad says that, by bundling up the bills and passing them together, the vote has satisfied all three main groups: the Kurds who wanted the budget, the Sunni Arabs who wanted the amnesty and the Shia Muslims who are keen to press ahead with provincial elections.

Passing the bills had been among 18 benchmarks set by Washington to foster political reconciliation. US ambassador Ryan Crocker called them each "very significant accomplishments".

...

 
519soxzeitgeist
      ID: 381481014
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 19:52
have a few spare minutes. the view from here.
Library/Originals/2008/Roll
7/DoorGuns_over_Baghdad.JPG">
 
520Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 13:36
Sadr's intentions on the 6-month cease fire will be made known in a few days.

I assume that this wouldn't interfere with his Islamic "studies", but it could still wreck havoc. Or help, depending on what he says.
 
521Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 13:45
From my admittedly ignorant perspective on Al-Sadr, with all the progress we've made with local Sheiks and reforms in Iraq, why do we (the US, Iraqi gov't and local tribal Sheiks) tolerate this guy?

While there is still violence in Iraq, the local Sheiks seems to coalescing around the gov't provided they still have localized power. So why allow a guy like Al-Sadr to screw them up?
 
522Perm Dude
      ID: 36118207
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 13:47
Well, I think it is because he has the power to really mess things up (like all the parties there, in fact). Better to have him in than out.
 
523Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 13:58
I'm sure he does, but three years ago he would have had a bigger impact than now I think or no?
 
524Perm Dude
      ID: 36118207
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 14:05
Yeah. But so did we!
 
525Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 14:25
with all the progress we've made with local Sheiks and reforms in Iraq, why do we (the US, Iraqi gov't and local tribal Sheiks) tolerate this guy?

How much progress have we made to that end? Or more specifically, how much of the progress you speak of has worked toward marginalizing al-Sadr? I guess one way to find out would be the result of his lifting the cease-fire.

We've tolerated him for the past year because he called off his insurgency at the beginning of the Bush's "surge", helping to make it look like a screaming success.
 
526Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 15:04
with all the progress we've made with local Sheiks and reforms in Iraq, why do we (the US, Iraqi gov't and local tribal Sheiks) tolerate this guy?

Tolerate? Saddam couldn't tolerate his father, so he had him murdered, along with numerous other members of his family and followers. Is that what you're suggesting?

Al-Sadr is probably the single most popular figure in Iraq.. Some of his followers are part of the government you speak of. The local tribal sheiks you speak of(the ones you called terrorists not long ago)are Sunni.

While the media constantly calls A-Sadr anti-American, he's not. He's anti-American occupation. He's also more Iraqi nationalist and less influenced by Iran than the SCIRI and DAWA Shiite parties and the Badr militia run by Abdel Aziz Al-Hakim.

It amazes me that some people think it's justified to invade a country under the auspices of "freeing them", then killing the leaders of those we've allegedly just freed, under the fallacious guise of a war on terror.


Quick refresher course for Moqtada Al-Sadr
 
527Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 22:27
Good news ... Reuters is reporting that Sadr has reportedly issued instructions to extend the cease fire for another 6 months ...

We don't get to pick and choose Iraqi leaders. At any rate, he's holed up (voluntarily or otherwise) in Iran, trying to find someone to write a good dissertation for him so that he can become (when he turns 40) an ayatollah ... or even, ideally, a "Sign of God". ... his army has been somewhat leaderless and losing steam, so this ceasefire carries with it personal risks for him.
 
528Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 23:37
At any rate, he's holed up (voluntarily or otherwise) in Iran

That's possible, but it's disputed. According to Al-Sadr's official spokesman

Al-Sadr is studying at the Al-Hawzah religious institution in Najaf

Others have placed him at the religious school in Qom, Iran, but there is no positive confirmation.
 
529Wilmer McLean
      ID: 42114192
      Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 04:08
Re: 520 & 527

Madman, double dang it, ya beat me to it in 520, I was gonna Rueters the thread, but ya beat me to it.

Then, well and behold, an extension on the ceasefire?

Madman, welcome back!!

527 is a welcoming and begs the q's of all posters!

Six months is (Feb-Aug). What then?

 
530WiddleAvi
      ID: 251113917
      Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 19:07
True cost of Iraq war.
 
531Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 21:55


Perhaps the two most famous "celebrators" of this horrendous birthday. The CEOs of Haliburton and Bectell, amongst others, certainly have popped a few Dom Perions themselves.
 
532Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:00
Blog post on recent events in Iraq ... To summarize, Al Sadr's camp is breaking the cease-fire. Had to happen sooner or later, but we were all hoping for later, since indications were they were weakening in the interim. And Al Sadr had himself indicated an extension.

The bad news is that we can't tell for sure how well the Iraqi forces are doing ... the really bad news is that what little we can glean indicates that they may be inadequate for the task. Time will tell.

Second topic ... anyone have good data on electricity production in various provinces? Oil production? Long ago the Pentagon used to produce monthly estimates for various dashboard measures ... I lost track of them a couple of years ago and just can't find anything substantive.

Seems like we are too busy drawing up cartoons mocking one another's motives about decisions made 5 years ago to put much effort into figuring out exactly what is going on.
 
533Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:16
anyone have good data on electricity production in various provinces

The State Department used to have this information but they stopped releasing it about the time that the surge was being debated. It seems that the lack of electricity in Baghdad was embarrasing to the Administration during a time that they wanted to portray progress there.

I'll dig around a bit. Now that the Shiite has hit the fan there they might now be releasing the data to show how much American help is still needed.
 
534Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:16
Actually, we are too busy drawing up our plans for declaring victory and leaving. President-to-be Obama hasn't shied away from his promise to remove the troops. Iraq will be responsible for keeping its electricity grid intact, and doing something with those billion dollar military bases the Republicans foolishly thought would be Arab Guantanamos.

Americans can see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's one year away. There will be no Hundred Years War, John, we won't stand for it.
 
535Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:16
Seems like we are too busy drawing up cartoons mocking one another's motives about decisions made 5 years ago to put much effort into figuring out exactly what is going on.

The blog entry in #532 doesn't really help explain what is going on, depending instead on characterizations that portray an illusionary vision of the realities that exist.
Such as:

"..the Iraqi government has grown and increased in capability to the point where they now feel confident going after Shia extremists in a part of the country that they had not exerted great influence over.” - Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell

The term Shia extremists is used in a capacity to describe the Sadrists in general and the Mahdi Army in particular. This is fortunate for the US-backed government forces, because it obscures the fact that these forces could easily be termed Shia extremists as well, since the government forces that operate in the Shia provinces are predominately Badr militia-infiltrated forces loyal to the governing powers of the ISCI and DAWA parties, much like the Iraqi goverment forces in the North are heavily infiltrated with Kurdish peshmerga militia, and the de-facto security forces operating as our allies in Anbar, Salladin and Diyala provinces are Sunni Awakening Councils, armed and paid by the US at the consternation of the ruling Shia.

The election three years ago put the US in a precarious position, as the SCIRI(now ISCI) and DAWA parties won the right to control the government, with begrudging help from the Kurds.
So, when speaking about the Iraqi security forces or even the Iraqi government, it might be wise to clarify who, what and where are the
extremists.

Revealing the contradictions built into the US position in Iraq, even as it was blaming Iran for the alleged renegade units of the Mahdi Army, the US was using the Badr Organization, the military arm of the ISCI, to carry out raids against the Mahdi Army. The Badr Organization and the ISCI had always been and remained the most pro-Iranian political-military forces in Iraq, having been established, trained and funded by the IRGC from Shi'ite exiles in Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.

It was the ISCI leader Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim who had invited two IRGC officers to be his guests in December 2006, apparently to discuss military assistance to the Badr Organization. The Iranian officials were seized in the home of Hadi al-Ameri, the leader of the Badr Organization and detained by the US military. The George W Bush administration continued throughout 2007 to cite those Iranian visitors as evidence of the IRGC's illicit intervention in Iraq.

But the Badr Organization had become the indispensable element of the Iraqi government's security forces, who could be counted on to oppose the Mahdi Army in the south. And in a further ironic twist, it was the leaders of the ISCI and of the Nuri al-Maliki government, which depended on Iranian support, who insisted last summer and autumn that the US should credit Iran with having prevailed on Muqtada to agree to a ceasefire. The close collaboration of the US command with these pro-Iranian groups against Muqtada appears to be the main reason for the State Department's endorsement of that argument last December.

 
536Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 13:56
SZ -- Obama military advisor McPeak on Iraq -- "Who wants to volunteer to get cross-ways with us? We'll be there a century, hopefully. If it works right." McPeak in 2003 ... not sure if he's changed his mind. Notice that it's a lot worse than what McCain said, since McCain was strictly posing the hypothetical: would there be a problem if we were there 100 years as long as we weren't sustaining casualties?

And again, we are brought back into the mud of he-said, she-said which accomplishes nothing.

PV -- I think I agree. Not sure if it was that source or another that suggested the Iraqi forces were, in some cases, simply switching sides as the fighting was going on. The motives of those fighting are also varied.

PD 533 -- yes. Although it was my understanding that part of the tactical shift was a movement toward gaining security and away from the funding of corrupt projects. Regardless, I'd like to know the situation. But because our nation is mired in linguistic mud-slinging, finding out you know, actual facts, has become impossible as both sides entrench themselves in their own self-righteousness.
 
537walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 14:00
Thousands Protest AGAINST crackdown in Basra

This sorta tells me the surge has worked to some degree (created a bit of a stalemate or "critical, but stable" condition situation) but that we will need to be Iraq forever. So, I wonder again, if we might as well get out now. What a mess we created. I don't know how it's going to sort it, but it's going to be one evil or another.

John Stewart showed clips of Rumsfeld at the beginning of it all, in a press conference, saying: "It could take 6 days, 6 weeks, but I doubt it will take 6 months."
 
538Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 14:29
SZ -- Obama military advisor McPeak on Iraq...

I'm surprised that you have chosen to use a 2003 quote from some guy no one has heard of rather than listen to the man himself, who has not equivocated on his claim that he will start to bring the troops home immediately.

Even if we learn some "actual facts" of what's happening in Iraq, no one, not even Iraqis, can accurately explain what are the actual causes of these "facts". Just as the "actual facts" are mired in confusion, drawing conclusions from them is just as mired in agendas.
 
539Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 16:56
SZ -- Obama's views have changed depending on the status on the ground. On some level, this flexibility has to be regarded as a good thing, even if people don't always like his answer. My perception, which is not seldom countered directly by his rhetoric on the trail, matches the view of Walter Mead in this this article ...

"If you look at Obama's stands, he has taken different stands, or differently nuanced stands, based on his perceptions of the changing realities on the ground," Mead said. "As a rational human being, [if he is elected president] nine months from now, he'll have to do the same thing. He'll have to look carefully at the situation as it is, and make the best policy calls that he can."

That's the truth that his ex-advisor Power told the BBC. It's also the truth buried in his promise to invite commanders and evaluate the situation after he becomes President.
 
540Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 17:01
Obama just last month putting the appropriate caveats onto his plan:

"At a time when American casualties are down, at a time when the violence is down, particularly affecting the Iraqi population, is that the right time to try and set time tables for withdrawing all American troops? I mean you talked about…the end of 2009," Kroft remarked.

"Yeah, absolutely. I think now is precisely the time. I think that it is very important for us to send a clear signal to the Iraqis that we are not gonna be here permanently. We're not gonna set up permanent bases. That they are going to have to resolve their differences and get their country functioning," Obama said.

"And you pull out according to that time table, regardless of the situation? Even if there’s serious sectarian violence?" Kroft asked.

"No, I always reserve as commander in chief, the right to assess the situation," Obama replied.


It's only been since the Power fiasco that the rhetoric has doubled-down on withdrawal regardless, as far as I can see.
 
541Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 21:30
they are going to have to resolve their differences and get their country functioning

Yea! Too true, dat! They made the bed, now let them sleep on it! Bloody morons, toppling the guy that kept the whole circus running... What were they thinking?

...

No, wait.
 
542walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 12:22
Tracking a Marine Lost at Home

A gut-wrenching read.
 
543Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 13:03
absolutely. it's the price of war that those who call for war don't seem to remember, or don't care to acknowledge.

it's also eerily reminiscent to an episode of the popular tv series Criminal Minds, where a vet who survived Mogadishu is set off by a loud noise as he changes a flat tire, and suddenly flashes back to Somalia, as some not so great things unfold around him and the places his mind has gone.
 
544Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Sun, Apr 06, 2008, 12:21


A fraud and a fool, indeed.
 
545Seattle Zen
      ID: 2232819
      Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 16:39
Hey, I just got an e-mail from Soxzeitgeist who is currently in Al Mahmudiyah, Iraq. Wow, how long has it been? And he said he gets to come home for only a couple of weeks in July, then back to that furnace. He says it has been quiet, so we should all be thankful for that.

So, let's raise a toast to our boy Sox. Come home soon!
 
546Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 16:43
Here here.
 
547Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 19:44
4322 military dead in Iraq.

Staggering.

Some numbers of the invasion.
 
548soxzeitgeist
      ID: 7630816
      Wed, Jul 08, 2009, 17:37






Hi. Boy do I have some insight and stories for y'all from Mamudiyah and Abu Ghraib. The region, not the prison. Hope all is well. DRAGONS!
 
549Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Wed, Jul 08, 2009, 17:47
Too kool. Great hearing from you! More more.
 
550soxzeitgeist
      ID: 23742215
      Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 16:44
Mar’haba! Greetings from the Abu-Gharaib Qada. It’s like a non-stop hair dryer in a hot laundrymat in your face with some talcum powder and grit thrown in for good measure here.

So ummm, is this the fabled forum inhabited by titans of fantasy sports and politics? I heard tell of this place in hushed tones, so thought I’d check it out.

So, about a year or so since I’ve posted anything of real import here, and even that’s debatable, as my opinions might be a big pile of khara.
And that’s the biggest real-life lesson of the past 10 months – it’s all gray, and there are more questions for every answer you come up with. While on one hand, I’m still very much of the opinion we never should have gotten involved in the morass that is TFP (this f-ing place), and we might be just fixing what we broke, there are undeniably daily little miracles going on here, and lots of good work being done by us. Outside of the usual traffic control stuff, patrols and searching for weapons caches, I’ve been involved (pulling security, doing outreach or being a “presence”) in projects that have fixed or built 2 health clinics, a school, repaired water and electrical infrastructure and built roads. Right now we’re part of a project that is refurbishing a market, the roads and a big refrigerated milk warehouse near Zaidon (west of Baghdad).

The people, while still suspicious and sometimes hostile – and by hostile I mean indignant or upset, either because we’re there or because we’re there and not producing results fast enough – are generally good people in the sh*ttiest, most untenable position a person could find themselves in, outside of a Darfur type setting. They’re mostly cooperative and eager to get on with the business of life.

The Iraqi Army is now slightly more than useless in most situations, and once you get past the graft, BS and their freaking officers, they prove to be a decent bunch. When we work together, their NCO’s are pretty good, and even when we come up empty on the mission (a lot of the times) you can measure success by the improvement of the IA. At least that’s the mantra we use…

So I hope everyone is good in Guru land, and I’ll be back with a vengeance in October or November. I hope to post some updates and pics between now and then!

Inshu’faak ba deen! Dragons!


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have little.”
 
551soxzeitgeist
      ID: 23742215
      Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 16:52


You know you're hot for them, baldy :)

 
552Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 19:15
Damn, both Madman and sox posting the same day. What is this--Homecoming Weekend?

Be safe, sox.
 
553Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 19:22
Sox

I would suspend that particular line of jesting at the very least while you are 'in country'.

One thing that would drive them into the arms of the jihadists even more than reminding them of the crusades, is to suggest that america's presense is a threat to their women's honor.

But otherwise, good to hear from you and that you are alive and kicking.
 
554biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 23:29
Stay safe, sox, and I look forward to a full debrief around the Dodgers are beating the Red Sox on the WS!

 
555sarge33rd
      ID: 236141411
      Mon, Aug 03, 2009, 11:22
Take care of you Sox. Look forward to hearing more upon your safe return!
 
556Seattle Zen
      ID: 4478312
      Mon, Aug 03, 2009, 13:12
Great photos. Really looking forward to hearing more from you this fall.

I figure it will take you at least a month to stop talking in acronyms :)
 
557Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 19:12
Its enough to make you cry, too. Great video.
 
558Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Nov 12, 2009, 19:10
It wasn't about the oil. That's just crazy...
 
559boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Nov 13, 2009, 10:50
Isn't that article 5 years to late? I am sure it was not to hard for someone to see who owns the companies that got the kurdish oil rights?

I like how the article calls in personal reasons, because he friends with kurds. If we were to intervene in darfur it would have been called humanitarian.
 
560boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 12:59
As the troops finally leave Iraq it is nice to see it was not all about the oil and guess who benefits again from all wars: china
 
561Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 20:57
Greenwald's link in #558 is so rabidly incoherent that it screams for clarification, correction, and rebuttal to the character assasination which he delights in throughout.

PD's comment, It wasn't about the oil, gives creedence to the ludicrous claim by Greenwald that Galbraith played a key role in enabling the invasion of Iraq. While I don't have time at the moment to fully delve into the specifics, I will say that anyone with even a pedestrian knowledge of the invasion of Iraq knows that Peter Galbraith played no role, much less a key role in enabling the invasion.
 
562Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 21:14
Galbraith has had a pervasive and persistent presence in Iraq and US policy toward Iraq. His work on the Iraqi constitution and his efforts and whipping up the war effort is well documented.

What wasn't known at the time is that Galbraith had a big conflict of interest the entire time, and was benefiting from the policy nudges he was making.
 
563Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 21:38
whipping up the war effort is well documented.

Really? You'll have to come up with more than his signature on a letter.
Prior to the war, going back to the 90s, Galbraith lead an unsuccessful campaign petitioning the UN to grant Iraqi Kurdistan independent status. He did not whip up the war effort, he supported replacing the Saddam regime as a means to that goal, which is why he signed the letter.
I would insist that documentation be presented supporting the claim that Galbraith was whipping up the war effort in any editorial, or TV appearance prior to the invasion. That should be easy if it's well-documented, and it should be in the time frame of 2002 - March 2003.

 
564Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 22:43
Good points.

In this June 2002 NYT piece, Galbraith expressed support for pre-emptive military action by the US against terrorists and states developing WMD.

BTW, I've long agreed with Galbraith on the role of the Kurds in the post-Saddam Iraq. I believe you do as well.
 
565Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 23:34
Ok, that snippet in the NYT doesn't rise to whipping up the war effort or put Galbraith in a key role in the invasion. And FTR, I'm not disputing there's a conflict of interest in not disclosing his arrangement with the (presumably) Barzani clan, which controls most of Kurdistan. There's a lot which isn't clear. Galbraith did a lot for Kurdish image internationally, and maybe Barzani felt a juicy oil deal was a better barter than a herd of goats.

But Greenwald consistently uses rhetoric to paint a picture of Galbraith in a light that just doesn't pass muster.

he then continuously posed as an independent expert on the region and, specifically, an "unpaid" adviser to the Kurds on the Constitution

Posed? He is an expert on the region. And he never made any bones that he was firmly affiliated with the Kurdish cause, so how could Greenwald claim he posed as an independent expert?

And if Greenwald is going to bring up Galbraith's relationship as an adviser on Kurdistan to
Paul Wolfowitz :

Peter Galbraith: They [the Bush administration] knew about this looting. In fact, when I came back from Iraq, I went and saw Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense. I described in great detail all the things that had gone wrong. I described the looting of the biological location I described the looting of the Tawaitha nuclear facility and then after that on the twelfth of June I testified publicly before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about the same thing and even after that nothing happened. Of course I wasn't the only person to warn. There were newspaper stories. They must have had reports from their commanders in the field. It didn't change their behavior. These materials continued to be looted even after they received the warnings. That's the bigger picture. That's what makes me so upset about what's gone on in Iraq.
[...]

Brian Lehrer: You know Paul Wolfowitz, you helped sell the war for Paul Wolfowitz. What does he say? Do you talk to him? Does he acknowledge that the war was mishandled?

Peter Galbraith: No, and in fact when I delivered my report he got angrier and angrier and it became clear that he was not angry at what I was saying, but at me personally and that was the last time I spoke to him.



 
566Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 13:38
Obama has just said the US will be out of Iraq by
the end of the year--will post a link when I find
it.

Big news. And he wasn't wearing a jumpsuit with a
"Mission Accomplished" sign behind him, oddly.
 
567sarge33rd
      ID: 309252112
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 13:43
big news indeed PD..

link
 
568Tree
      ID: 469562112
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 13:56
Obama is a serious bad ass. Takes out some of our biggest enemies, and now bringing an end to the Iraq war. He is slowly but surely doing many of the things he said he would.
 
569sarge33rd
      ID: 309252112
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 14:08
Agreed Tree. You'll never hear a Rep admit it, but Obama's list of achievements vs Americas enemies is no less impressive than Reagans.
 
570Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 17:04
but Obama's list of achievements vs Americas enemies is no less impressive than Reagans.

Oh, hell no, Reagan freed Grenada. Frickin' GRENADA! That was huge.
 
571Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 17:20
Oh he's a real cowboy. As long as he's standing behind a boss robot.
 
572Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 21:13
Nice. Please do continue the Right's inability to find graciousness or class in what they do.
 
573Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 23:17
The situation in Iraq remains very unstable, but that will continue whether we have troops there or not.

There has been little progress unifying the Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions and the possibility of Iraq splitting up into 3 entities remains a distinct possibility.

It's up to the Iraqis to decide if they're going to remain in a union. It's not our responsibility. If they're attacked by Iran or Turkey, then, yeah, we should probably step in. Short of that, there's no sensible reason to remain there.
 
574Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 00:43
Oh he's a real cowboy. As long as he's standing behind a boss robot.

he's made this country immeasurably safer for everyone, including non-voting bigots. sorry the concept is lost on you.
 
575Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sat, Oct 22, 2011, 18:29
Worth a dupe post:

 
576Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 05:59
1) He's made a mockery of every democrat complaint about the process of lead-up to war ever uttered. Can you imagine the firestorm Bush would have gone thru if he had just gone into Libya without even waving at congress and the UN? Unbelievable.

2) Obama really has that whole, 'when your political health is crashing at home, distract them with a war abroad' ploy down pat tho.
 
577Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 06:03
And he's really got that Alfred E. Newman impression down.
 
578Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 12:36
He made a mockery in what way, exactly? I guess you are talking about Libya?

You must not be aware that the UN passed a "no-fly" ful in Libya, and the US (and other countries) were asked to enforce this. Is this the "not waving at the UN" part you are referring to?

The "no-fly" zone was passed at the urging of the Arab League. Not that you care what Arabs want to do with their own countries

I'm sorry that your ungraciousness has to be displayed in every post you make. This is a problem, but it is your problem.
 
579Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 19:18
Because sooner or later you run out of evil madmen to assassinate to bolster your popularity.

Obama rises to 44% approval based on Khadafy kill.

Obama sends troops to Uganda to take out Lord’s Resistance Army leader Joseph Kony.

Sends notice to congress. I am unclear if this even comes close to satisfying the War Powers Act which dems have been lathered up about for decades.

But maybe PD can google for me where O secured UN approval.

I mean Bush needed UN approval, dozens of allies in on the plan and it still wasn't good enuff for democrats.
 
580sarge33rd
      ID: 299342518
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 19:34
So why did you defend Bush and now attack Obama? (I havent yet looked into the scenario , so I am reserving judgement.)
 
581Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 19:40
So we went to war and you never heard about it.

Hmmm
 
582sarge33rd
      ID: 299342518
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 19:50
Is that what "I havent looked into it" means? That I havent even heard about it? Gee, and I thought it meant precisely what I said, that I hadnt LOOKED INTO ( as in researched) it.

Of course they are one in the same to you,. Limbaugh, Fox, Beck, AC says it...no research needed. Just regurgitate it as verified and valid fact. Even though, NONE of them are reporters.
 
583soxzeitgeist
      ID: 329222519
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 20:23
Is there a thread where boldwin makes any sense at all?

Soooo frustrating trying to even decipher where you're going in these conversations, B. You fail to answer questions, refuse to retract spurious accusations and statements, and outright ignore posts which require you to post definitive sources or where you're proven wrong (and worse) willfuly misleading.

More than anything it's disappointing.
 
584Wilmer McLean
      ID: 2899151
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 20:29
RE 567's Link ( Obama: All US troops out of Iraq by end of year -- MSNBC -- updated 10/21/2011 6:58:45 PM ET)

...

Obama made his announcement after a video conference with Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. He said the two leaders agreed to stick to an earlier arrangement to pull the remaining 40,000 U.S. troops by year's end.

About 160 U.S. soldiers will remain behind under State Department authority to train Iraqi forces along with a small contingent of soldiers guarding the U.S. Embassy. There will also likely be a U.S. special operations presence in Iraq.

...

Earlier this week, U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said American and Iraqi officials were continuing discussions that might permit his soldiers to stay beyond the December 31 deadline.

The prospect of extending the troop presence was very sensitive for Iraq's fractured political elite.

Maliki, heading a tenuous coalition including politicians vehemently opposed to foreign troops, eventually advocated a training presence but rejected any legal immunity for U.S. soldiers. Those terms were deemed unacceptable in Washington and in the end there was no deal to be had.

"This has been inevitable," said David Mack, a former U.S. ambassador in the Middle East.

"National security strategists in both Washington and Baghdad made a strong case for keeping US military forces beyond 2011, but the domestic politics in both countries were against it," he said.

...


-------------------------------------------------


McDonough: U.S. Military Brass 'Absolutely' OK With Iraq Withdrawal by 2012 -- PBS -- AIR DATE: Oct. 21, 2011

Watch McDonough: U.S. Military Brass 'Absolutely' OK With Iraq Withdrawal by 2012 on PBS. See more from PBS NewsHour.




( 3:20 mark )

MARGARET WARNER: Denis McDonough, thank you for joining us.

The U.S. has been in these talks with the Iraqis about leaving 3,000 to 5,000 U.S. troops there. How did that come apart?

DENIS MCDONOUGH, U.S. deputy national security adviser: Well, let me just take a step pack, Margaret, and say that we have obviously been in talks with the Iraqis over the course of many months, in fact, a couple years now, about the kind of relationship we want to have at the end of this security agreement.

The security agreement was negotiated and signed in 2008 by President Bush with Prime Minister Maliki. Under that agreement, we were always scheduled to get to zero U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq at the end of this calendar year.

So we made a determination that we would -- the president would live up to that agreement, but always keeping open the option in the event that the Iraqis asked for an additional presence after that time that we would keep them there, obviously with the appropriate protections. But we also wanted to make sure that we had a goal not of maintaining people on the ground, but, rather, a goal of protecting our interests and the kind of relationship that we want going forward.

So this isn't a question of what we were able to get or not able to get from the Iraqis, but, rather, this is a question of what we decided, what the president decided, and what the prime minister decided was in our interests for the relationship going forward. We have the kind of relationship now that's multifaceted, allowing security and training, but also allowing us to get back to the normal relationship that we have with governments all around the world.

So I just want to not leave the impression that somehow this is a question of not having gotten immunities and, therefore, we made a different -- made a course change.

In fact, the decision here was, what is the kind of relationship we want to have going forward? How would we be able to get back to a normal relationship with Iraq, like that we have with other countries around the world? And that's why the president made the decision he made today, not because of something the Iraqis did or didn't do.

...

MARGARET WARNER: Now, will U.S. special forces remain for counterterrorism operations?

DENIS MCDONOUGH: No.

...



 
585Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 20:37
Sox#583

I have at least three trolls following my every post. You will need to overcome your disappointment that I don't respond to each one.

In fact please be encouraging anytime you see a conservative around here. I'd rather respond even less than I do now.
 
586Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 21:14
I'd rather respond even less than I do now.

We'd rather that be the case too bad sadly you have actually doubled your trolling efforts.

Nice post Wilmer.
 
587Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 21:35
Be really really nice to Boikin, B7, Wilmer McLean, J-bar and The Left Behind...if you are that desperate for me to retire.
 
588Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 21:37
Who, exactly, are you to be dictating that other people should be nice on this forum?
 
589Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 00:58
Be really really nice

says the guy who calls people who challenge him "trolls". it's easier to call someone a name, than to answer your challenge, so that's what you do.
 
590Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 10:48
PD

I want to leave. You want me to leave. The only thing preventing me is that I refuse to be driven off by trolls. So if you would for once refrain from insulting every conservative right out the door, maybe I can make your day.
 
591Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 10:56
Baldy, do you think its possible that other conservatives (or even those who have some conservative tendencies) might not be posting because they don't want to get lumped in with some loon who spews out bigotry and hatred in the name of "Christianity"?

I'm willing to bet a lot more points of view would be heard here if the nonsense of one particular "Christian" was gone.
 
592Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 11:25
As long as the majority of conservative points that need raising are raised, and easily refuted liberal ideas aren't left standing unchallenged because there are no conservatives around, I will be free to read and research my own interests and let others carry the load in here.

I will not let Alinski tactics drive out the conservative POV from this forum if I can help it.
 
593Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 12:39
591 went so far over Baldwin's head, it marked our return to the moon.
 
594Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 13:10
I can't speak for Khahan, but there is a lot of truth in 591. But, I'm sure that I'm also a RINO since I don't incorporate religion into my political views. A major point, I think abortion is immoral, but I don't think it should be illegal. I have issues with late-term abortions, but I think even most proponents of abortions would probably agree.
 
595sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 13:43
Contrary B to your claim that we WANT you to leave. What we want, is for you to open your mind and your eyes to the simple truth..YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. YOU, do not reflect the majority of the right wing. YOU, are in fact an extremist of the worst sort, an absolutist.


Open your mind, open your eyes; and you wont be treated as the shrill troll you've become.
 
596Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 13:57
OMG, Frick thinks he's sort of a conservative. Wonders never cease. I never saw that one coming.

Aaagh...no. But fascinating. Have you ever voted for a republican?
 
597Razor
      ID: 55982514
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:03
Have you?
 
598sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:08
The thing that keeps escaping you B, is that YOU are not a representative Republican.
 
599Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:09
When was the last time you disagreed with Obama?
 
600Razor
      ID: 55982514
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:11
Way more often than you agree with him. I am capable of objective, rational thought, then again.
 
601sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:11
599, pointless attempt at deflection
 
602Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:12
Sarge, whatever would you debate over if it was just Khahan and Frick debating with you? Or do you see this as a mutual admiration society?
 
603sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:14
neither B. Why is it so improbable to you, that Reps and Dems can actually AGREE on some things?

For ex, I think Frick is spot on with abortion. I wouldnt choose it, but neither do I feel I have the right to TELL someone else they can not choose it. And I disagree strongly, with 3rd trimester abortion EXCEPT, to save the life of the mother.
 
604Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:16
Since when did agreeing with Roe v Wade make you a conservative?
 
605Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:19
BTW that is one gutless moral stance when you good and well know every Planned Parenthood abortionist in the country is gonna rubber-stamp 'mother's life endangered' on every single third trimester abortion that comes their way.
 
606Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:22
I wish that Obama could come in and finish off this thread ... just as he is finally ending the pointless war in Iraq.

I'm also really tired of Baldwin coming and vomiting his abortion opinions in every thread. I don't give a crap Baldwin. Stick to the subject.

And back to 597 ... When was the last time you voted for a Republican Baldwin??
 
607sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:39
RvW alone, does not make one conservative or not B.
 
608Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 14:45
I'll take the blame for bringing abortion into this thread.

The last time I voted for a Republican? The last election. I typically vote Republican, but I don't vote a straight ticket, I vote for the person I feel is going to do the best job. I like McCain, but Palin was a negative after she started opening her mouth. I want fiscal restraint, smaller government, and less government over our personal lives. That might make me more Libertarian than Republican, but when was the last serious Libertarian candidate? IMO Republican does not equal Christian. I'm sure B will disagree with that statement. Separation of Church and State. It's a good thing.
 
609DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:09
"Since when did agreeing with Roe v Wade make you a conservative?"

Could have sworn that "conservatives", as opposed to "wacko Bible-thumpers", are about keeping government out of personal lives and not just pocketbooks. Frick summed it up well.

There are a bunch of things I don't think are good ideas (drugs and alcohol are the obvious choices), and I'd really hope that if when my daughter grows up she is unfortunate enough to find herself in such a situation that an abortion's an option that she won't do it. Of course, I also recognize that using government to impose my personal beliefs on the rest of the world is maybe not the best approach to letting people live their personal lives and that maybe if I want to convince someone of the rightness of my position I should do it on a different level.

I realize that doesn't inherently conform to Boldwin's "evil troll lib'rul marxist pig" label, but, well, tough crap.
 
610walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:29
I know this continues the off-topicness, but...

Right, why is it okay to have a federal law about some things (abortion, marriage), but not others (healthcare)? One is either for small government and states' rights, or one is really really for selective small government and states' rights (that meets one's values and political beliefs). Instead of seeing one week folks yelling about too much/little government intrusion, they need to be called out for saying "too much/little government intrusion about the things I care about.
 
611sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:38
IMO walk; one ideology wants to legislate it's brand of morality, while the other wants to enable more individual choice.

Admittedly, the second one above would install more corporate regulation but, thats not on how the individual lives but rather on how corporate has to be a community citizen vs pure leech.
 
612Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:47
Walk

I see preventing murder as a very minimal and essential government role. I don't see any difference between the government stopping the holocaust in Germany and the government stopping the holocaust down at the local Planned Parenthood.

Contrast that with your selective approach to human rights. Only some humans getting the benefit of your support.
 
613sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 15:51
yeah, those who have actually been born and are breathing.
 
614walk
      ID: 348442710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 16:41
I don't see it as murder, and a lot of others don't as murder either, so while I know you know that a good many people don't see it is murder, you continue to define it to your standards, and then make the seemingly obvious point that the gov't should interfere with your selective definition of things.
 
615DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 16:58
If abortion is murder, why aren't we prosecuting people who have miscarriages for manslaughter?

But, yeah, this isn't going to be a productive conversation for the usual obvious reasons.
 
616sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 17:09
Carl Sagan argued it best when he said the fetus is a POTENTIAL infant, just as an infant is a potential toddler. A toddler, a potential pre-schooler, etc.

Now, if we define the medical procedure of aborting a POTENTIAL infant as murder; then we must define the miscarriage as the same. In fact, the woman who goes through her cycle, has just destroyed how many POTENTIAL infants? When a couple engages in intercourse, how many MILLIONS of potential infants are destroyed, when MAYBE 1 egg gets fertilized? And do we even want to consider how many BILLIONS are lost, through teen male masturbation.

No, we can not define the ending of POTENTIAL human life, as murder. Where would you stop and who would set the boundaries, if we did?




It was hearing essentially that argument FROM Carl Sagan, which convinced me of the rightness OF the argument.
 
617Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:36
That is a sophomoric argument and I don't care who made it.

A baby will automatically turn into a toddler will automatically turn into...unless their life is terminated.

The same cannot be said for sperm and eggs and stem cells and whatever else nonsensical you can come up with...

And if I cause your wife to miscarry I will be prosecuted for ending a human life so that other sophomoric argument is also fatuous.
 
618sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:39
"unless their life is terminated". Thats rather the point isnt it? No ones life is guaranteed, to continue to the next stage of human development.

Whats sophomoric, is the fall you have taken over the past few years.
 
619Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:39
Abortion is just one more assault on the individual.
 
620Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:46
But forcing a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy isn't an assault on the individual?
 
621Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:55
It's a rescue of a baby. That is the individual in danger.
 
622sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 18:57

It is the government, interferring with a deeply personal, difficult and troubling decision.
 
623Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 19:14
i love watching Baldwin be the judge of who is a Republican, and who is not...and who is a Conservative, and who is not.

this is brilliant, unintentional comedy.

he accuses those who lean left on this board of running off the conservative posters, where here he is, in this thread, doing just that.

kudos Baldwin, kudos.
 
624sarge33rd
      ID: 579422612
      Wed, Oct 26, 2011, 19:26
*IF*, B were the ultimate Conservative and all who would call themselves Republican practiced just as he does, they would never win an election, since he never casts a vote.

The absolute ultimate irony. The very right he uses to blast those who are left of him, is provided BY, those who are left of him.
 
625Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 27, 2011, 19:25
Mystery solved:

$6.6 billion in lost Iraq cash now accounted for, inspector says.
 
626bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 21:56
Junkyard Gives Up Secret Accounts of Massacre in Iraq

link

Haditha became a defining moment of the war, helping cement an enduring Iraqi distrust of the United States and a resentment that not one Marine has been convicted. That is one of the main reasons that all American combat troops are leaving by the weekend.

 
627sarge33rd
      ID: 3411261412
      Wed, Dec 14, 2011, 23:23
link

link from above repaired
 
629walk
      ID: 348442710
      Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 10:55
NYT: War in Iraq Declared Officially Over

Clearly there will be a lot of unofficial stuff going on in a rather unstable Iraq, but this is an about time milestone, IMO. A war that I wish was never started, and I give the President support for seeing through on the commitment made by the prior administration to end the war by this time (although I wish the prior admin did not start the war.)
 
630soxzeitgeist
      ID: 121111611
      Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 12:11


The colors being walked out.

THIS ISN'T OVER

You want a real 1%?

It's the men and women in uniform who we love precisely because we're not them.

My HBCT was the last US Army unit to be deployed for Operation New Dawn. I still have friends, brothers, who were there. IRQ is still "this f###ing place" and it's still a mess.

And we're not out.

Don't forget them.

It's the least we can do. We haven't done a damn thing else - no tax hikes, no bond drives, no scrap metal collections - no change of pace for 99% of Americans.

Shameful.
 
631Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 16:51
We're not out? How many troops will be in Iraq?
 
632Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Dec 16, 2011, 22:56
About 4000 are remaining right now. Mostly as "trainers" but really just to save Maliki's butt, if needed.
 
633Boldwin
      ID: 58112185
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 06:23
How many private company mercenaries will remain behind?
 
634bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 08:53
How many private company mercenaries will remain behind?

That's a good question And who will have legal jurisdiction over them? Iraqi's, the US government, or will they just be left to police themselves?
 
635Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 12:37
How many private company mercenaries will remain behind?

As many as the Iraqi government can hire, is my opinion. And at least they will be on their dime rather than ours.
 
636Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Dec 18, 2011, 13:51
My understanding is that they will be subject to the Iraqi legal system, as they should be.
 
637Boldwin
      ID: 385491121
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 22:56
Well Bush kicked al qeada out of Iraq and Obama armed them, got 160,000 Syrians killed for no good reason and now al qeada with their back to the wall in Syria is taking over Iraq.

Smart diplomacy...if you are an operative of the Muslim Brotherhood.

 
639Boldwin
      ID: 385491121
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 23:21
ISIS Strategy...where the oil is:

 
640Boldwin
      ID: 385491121
      Wed, Jun 11, 2014, 23:23
Huma Abedin...even happier than Dave Brat.
 
641Tree
      ID: 438482411
      Thu, Jun 12, 2014, 08:25
Well Bush kicked al qeada out of Iraq

this, of course, is another lie.

there wasn't al-queda in Iraq until Bush kicked Saddam out.

this is a wonderfully biased re-invention of history, but it's not truthful at all.
 
642Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Thu, Jun 12, 2014, 15:55
The map in #637 is confusing, as it doesn't name the cities it claims are controlled by ISIS to the east and northeast of Tikrit. Since there's no source linked to the map, or accompanying story, I'm left to my own devices to identify these cities, especially since one appears to be the coordinates of Kirkuk.

Iraqi Kurds seized control of the northern oil city of Kirkuk on Thursday as Sunni insurgents threatened to advance on Baghdad — two developments that further indicate that the central government has now lost large swaths of a country spiraling deeper into chaos and internecine violence.

Kurds have long dreamed of taking Kirkuk, a city with huge oil reserves just outside their autonomous region, which they regard as their historical capital. The swift move by their highly organized security forces demonstrates how this week's sudden advance by the armed group the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) has redrawn Iraq's map.

Meanwhile, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani pledged to combat the “violence and terrorism” brought by ISIL.

The army of the Shia-led government in Baghdad has essentially fled in the face of the onslaught, abandoning buildings and weapons to ISIL fighters.


Of course, the reality is that the Iraqi army is seen as a Shia entity by the areas being overrun, so the indigenous Sunni are, perhaps somewhat reluctantly, welcoming the Sunni militants as rescuing them from Shia rule.

Those of us who supported the idea of three separate independent states(a Sunni Iraq, Shia Iraq and Kurdistan) are not surprised to see this development taking place, as there has never been a real sense of Iraqi nationalism from the borders drawn by the West after WW1.

Now that Kirkuk is in the hands of the Kurdish peshmerga, don't expect they will ever give it up to Arab masters again.




 
643Boldwin
      ID: 4542138
      Fri, Jun 13, 2014, 11:36
When you've lost the liberal...
"We Never Should Have Left Iraq

A U.S. military presence could have mollified Sunnis and prevented the new civil war." - Slate...
 
644Boldwin
      ID: 4542138
      Fri, Jun 13, 2014, 11:41
Wait till Iran steps in as they will be forced to.
 
645Boldwin
      ID: 4542138
      Fri, Jun 13, 2014, 11:52
Jihadist Who Engineered The Fall of Mosul Was American Detainee Who Was Released in 2009.

No wonder Obama was so eager to release 5 taliban generals.
 
646Perm Dude
      ID: 294531914
      Fri, Jun 13, 2014, 11:58
When you've lost the liberal...

Once again a shallow look at where the piece appeared instead of the writer of the piece makes our resident "conservative" look rather shallow himself.
 
648Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Tue, Jun 17, 2014, 13:53
A surprisingly honest analysis from the editor of right wing news outlet, Newsmax.

Don't Blame Obama For Iraq
 
650Perm Dude
      ID: 294531914
      Wed, Jun 18, 2014, 20:24
Was just about to post that, PV. Cleared-headed conservative writing. We need more of it.
 
651Boldwin
      ID: 9541820
      Wed, Jun 18, 2014, 21:04
When even Turkey realizes it's time the Kurds got their own state, It's finally time.
 
652Boldwin
      ID: 9541820
      Wed, Jun 18, 2014, 21:06
Alright, what couldn't yer poor lil head handle this time? I save anything that will likely trigger poor lil PD, but I had no idea that one was a trigger.
 
653Boldwin
      ID: 9541820
      Wed, Jun 18, 2014, 21:32
Ahh, I remember. ISIS is gleefully posting their atrocities. Their plan is to outrage the Shiia into in-kind retributions, which will allow ISIS to win over the none too islamist majority of the Sunnis in Iraq.

Seeing the sort of people that Obama tried to put in charge of the Syrian people and the ones he unleashed on Iraq now, is instructive for liberals.

I've been explaining the muslim brotherhood agenda and what sort of monsters these people are for almost a decade before the war in Afghanistan.

I explained that Obama's moves would lead to their takeover and atrocities in Egypt and sure enuff they were literally crucifying people on the muslim brotherhood presidents lawn before long.

I explained they would be worse than Moammar Kadaffi when Obama's moves put them in charge of Libya and we shortly watched them torture ambassador Stevens to death on live drone TV.

I explained they would be worse than Assad [which is really saying something] and sure enuff they were shortly crucifying people almost at random. "How many kneelings at morning prayers?" "Bzzt...hand me the nails."

Now the guns your president gave them are murdering anyone who can't prove they are a devout Sunni across half of Iraq.

How much more inhuman mayhem do you libs plan on enabling?

I know. "Never let a crisis go to waste." Next you'll forever take the pressure off Iran to divest nuclear weapons, because you invited them into Iraq.

And establishment republicans like McCain and Lindsey Graham will be right there helping you do it.

It's all so predictable. I spelled it all out for you. In advance.

You will have set up the caliphate and gotten us all into world war three before long.

I wasn't giving you a step-by-step action plan. Sheesh. You just couldn't help yourself, could you?
 
654Boldwin
      ID: 9541820
      Wed, Jun 18, 2014, 21:46
I have to admit one wrinkle I didn't foresee. We now have a relatively new military device. I would call it the terror blitzkrieg where 800 guys can rout a national army of mixed backgrounds.

Shiia in the national army couldn't trust the Sunni soldiers on his own side, let alone the Sunni population at large. No wonder they melted away.

I think the West had better examine how well their defenses will work when muslims in their own ranks are shooting us in the back.

Diversity bites sometimes. Of course when libs finally get it, they'll blame all religious people, not their own policies that sabotaged their defenses.
 
655Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Wed, Jun 18, 2014, 23:09
#653 features 4 "I explained(s)". Disregarding the inflated sense of self importance, these are not explanations. They are opinions born of tunnel vision, with the final analysis the fully expected,

How much more inhuman mayhem do you libs plan on enabling?

It's equal parts amusing and annoying.



 
656Boldwin
      ID: 9541820
      Wed, Jun 18, 2014, 23:33
They are all predictions that came true...simply based on what the people involved actually were saying. I took them at their word. You keep making politically correct excuses for them and wishing away the threat.

At what point does it dawn on you that they are a real threat to your life?

At what point does it dawn on you that electing a president who puts a muslim brotherhood luminary in the role of chief-of-staff for the Secretary of State is suicidal?
 
657Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 00:02
You see, if I were adopt your ego-based style of posting I'd post something like:

I explained that a continuation of Iraq as a nation was unworkable unless the three entities, Sunni, Shia and Kurd were able to conduct their affairs independently and autonomously.

Then, I could say I predicted the current situation just like you. And I could follow that up by blaming you for being a pawn of the military industrial complex as well as the Koch brothers and the fossil fuel moguls you worship.

BTW, not a bad day for
Chevron, Halliburton and BP.
 
658Boldwin
      ID: 9541820
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 01:34
Yeah, what were your positions when Obama was enabling the MB takeover of Egypt/Libya/Syria? Where do you think they will stop and who is going to stop them?
 
659Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 09:18
My position in Egypt was that the MB would only be able to retain power with support from the military. They weren't able to accomplish that and are once again marginalized in that country. Further, it was my position that the MB failed to address the fragile economic situation which has been dependent on the West for decades, as well as embracing the many different factions, both religious and political, necessary for functional governance. The MB was concerned with establishing and enforcing their rigid social and religious agenda, a task unattainable in a country that has embraced the positive aspects of Western economic structure relative to most of their neighbors.

Since the MB has not taken over either Syria or Libya, claiming that Obama enabled such an occurrence is merely a delusion based on an obsessively unhealthy hatred of the president and an opportunity to blame libs for something, which is always the root of every analysis you present.




 
660Boldwin
      ID: 15519198
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 09:38
When I was warning that overthrowing Mubarrak was a disaster that would lead to a MB takeover what were you doing? You didn't even take that possibility seriously let alone understand the threat.

The MB is the mother of al qaeda, the leader of Sunni salafists everywhere and when you help them in Egypt and Libya and Syria and Iraq, you are their useful *****.

You seem to think the MB had no role in Libya. Read.

You seem to think that when the MB were kicked out of power in Egypt, the MB threat ended and you were somehow exonerated. Obviously the MB caliphate project is going swimmingly all over the world with Obama's help.

Next expect the MB to overthrow Jordan, or come very close to succeeding.

Easily within the realm of possibility is a decisive war between Shiia and Sunni for leadership of the caliphate. Shiia are outnumbered ten to one.

That the MB out of power in Egypt is just a temporary hickup for them. They are aiming for total domination of islam and then the world and their project is going swimmingly.

With help from blind people who can't see what is plainly in front of their face.
 
661Boldwin
      ID: 15519198
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 09:53
In fact the most accurate description of ISIS/ISIL is a two pronged Sunni war against the Shiia.

That's MB islamist terrorism, fratricidal islamist terrorism.

What are they doing with our weapons? Why weren't you outraged?
 
662Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 09:54
Please desist with the

You seem to think

attacks. If you want to respond to a quote of mine, fine. Otherwise, you're just making things up in an attempt to bolster an argument you're having with yourself.
 
663Boldwin
      ID: 15519198
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 09:57
Show me where you ever recognized the MB and decried assisting them.

Because I know I was alone in that fight.
 
664Boldwin
      ID: 15519198
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 09:59
The closest anyone here ever came to supporting me was Nerve pointing out after the fact that I had nailed the MB takeover in advance.
 
665PV at Ranches GC
      ID: 307192411
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 10:56
Was that before or after Nerve castigated you for being clueless about Muslims?
 
666Boldwin
      ID: 15519198
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 11:14
Anyone else who could see it coming was welcome to step forward.
 
667Boldwin
      ID: 385251912
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 13:25
Mohamed Elibiary, a senior member of DHS’ Homeland Security Advisory Council:
“The question for both the administration and Congress now is what are they going to do about the patently surreal position that Elibiary’s cheerleading for the ‘inevitable caliphate’ is being used fairly and in context by [ISIL] to recruit for jihad?”
 
668Boldwin
      ID: 385251912
      Thu, Jun 19, 2014, 13:26
Insanity
 
669Boldwin
      ID: 45539258
      Wed, Jun 25, 2014, 09:39
 
670Boldwin
      ID: 52563019
      Mon, Jun 30, 2014, 21:09
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned!
Daniel Carroll, Blackwater’s project manager in Iraq, told Richter [lead State Department investigator] after an argument "that he could kill me at that very moment and no one could or would do anything about it as we were in Iraq."
All the evidence and all parties involved seem to agree he wasn't kidding either. That was an accurate statement and a credible threat.

 
671Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 09:50
Obama authorises airstrikes

This may be a month and a half too late, but it's a necessary move IMO.
We've been inundated with the horrors of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, while Yezidis and Iraqi Christians, who have not engaged in any type of aggressive military actions, are being systematically driven from their homes, murdered and starved to death by ISIS.

Additionally, we should provide the Kurds and the peshmerga the arms and support necessary to combat an ISIS which has armed themselves with massive firepower abandoned by Iraqi national forces.

ISIS makes Hamas look like moderates. If we can justify arming Israel to the teeth to combat the threat of aggression by radical Islamic groups( Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood among others), we can surely justify providing the Kurds with the necessary firepower to counter ISIS aggression, especially since the vast majority of Northern Iraqi refugees have sought safe haven in the Kurdish provinces.
 
672Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Mon, Aug 11, 2014, 11:26
Hilary Runs From Obama Foreign Policy

Very curious, considering Obama's decision to intervene on behalf of the Kurds, Yazidis and Iraqi Christians is one his few solid foreign policy decisions, and will likely increase his popularity numbers.