Forum: pol
Page 288
Subject: Campaign Finance Reform and FES


  Posted by: steve houpt - [562201822] Tue, Mar 20, 15:22

Forget the first couple of paragraphs. What was interresting to me was from ....... on.

Moreover, if supporters of McCain-Feingold are clearly looking out for the interests of incumbents, who is looking out for the interests of the little guy, for the average American who simply wants to participate in political life?

This past fall I received a call from a professor at my former law school. Students at the school had started a group called Law Students for Bush-Cheney, and he was their faculty adviser. "That's great," I told him. "Don't spend more than $250, or you'll have to register as a political committee with the Federal Election Commission and start filing detailed reports." Unsurprisingly, the group didn't do much after that.


No Power to the Little Guy - What's behind McCain-Feingold? Politicians' desire to shut up their critics.

Author is member of FEC. Having not paticipated in any campiagns, sounds like some of the laws are built to keep corruption out, but used to catch anyone they can.
 
1steve houpt
      ID: 562201822
      Tue, Mar 20, 15:37
Note: That should be FEC.

Maybe I am for campaign finance reform after reading some more.

GETTING WHAT THEY ASKED FOR

If it does away with soft money.
Democrats collected $243M last year.
Republicans collected $244M last year.

Hard money:
Democrats collected $270M last year.
Republicans collected $447M last year.

Watching some of C-Span yesterday on debate on first ammendment to M-F (have not checked today - see it passed after some changes), hard to tell who is for what. It may have so many ammendments on it, may not recognize it.
 
2Perm Dude
      ID: 582521316
      Tue, Mar 20, 16:49
Thanks for the links, Steve. Most of the beginning of the first article is just overrun with political tripe (the only Democrat mentioned who doesn't get slammed is not even mentioned as being a Democrat). And placing the primary (and only listed) reason for McCain to be behind this as being the Keating banking scandal is ludicrous. McCain has been a stand-up buy his whole life and the difficulty the Republicans have of believing he would honestly support a bill which would hurt his own party is clearly driving such an outrageous charge.

The question of speech is quite important, and we mustn't put aside the question of corporate free speech either. But the writer's attempts to point out that expenditures are OK in the law but contributions to cover them is unconstitutional just isn't a very clear argument. Soft money to political parties doesn't prevent them from speech, particularly when the government, through the FEC, is already giving the two parties millions of dollars already before they get one dime in contributions.

Spending expands to fit the income (duh!) but that doesn't mean that additional expenditures are justifed simply because they are sure to be spent if the money is there.

There are lots and lots of ways to exercise the "right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" and donating soft-money should not be one of them. As for your other rights, there are lots of ways to spend your money on speech as well, ways that don't involve a distortion of the system.

In a democratic system of government, making money the primary reason things get done corrupts things by pulling influence away from the voters and into the donors. McCain-Feingold is not perfect (nothing really is in the balances we have to maintain) but it corrects some obvious problems.

pd
 
3steve houpt
      ID: 562201822
      Wed, Mar 21, 20:11
Could someone explain to me what the difference between corporations, labor unions and special interrest groups being involved with politics and making donations to political parties.

All have an agenda.

- If labor unions want to be involved why don't they form PAC's that people/members can donante money to if they have special interrests. Why use dues? I thought dues were to run the union, strike funds, etc. Why donate to political parties and special interest groups.

- Corporations are just that. They use money to advertise. Nokia Super Bowl, MET Blimp, Trans World Arena. Share holders know certain amounts of money is used for lobbying for things that help their bottom line and advertising. If bottom line drops, share holders sell. If limits (or ban) on soft money are put into law, why should unions continue to donate. Not republican against democrat - just does not level playing field of business against worker in political arena. Of course business already donates (supposedly 8 times more). SO it's never going to be fair - how about legal??

- special interrest. Mixed feelings. [NRA for example only - may be a bad one] If I wanted to donate to the NRA (don't - don't own a gun - make/made my donations to CFC, cancer research, Disabled Vets, the local F.O of Police, Fleet Reserve - a big lobbyist) and knew they would try and defend my rights, what is wrong with that, rather than me making a donation to one specific candidate that supports those rights? It's not 'buying' representation. The NRA would not donante money to Ted Kennedy to try and buy him into support anti legislation. But they might donate to a Senator that already did and was in a tight race that supported my views.

I do agree that many/most special interrest groups may have a disproportionate amount of say/influence - I partially blame the media for the coverage some of them get - NRA, NOW, just a few. But most get their money from donations (I thought) from 'PEOPLE' or corporations 'OWNED BY PEOPLE or EMPLOYERS OF PEOPLE'. They don't print it.

Listening to some of debates on different ammendments (especially one on corps and unions), I think by the time they are done, the FEC/campaign finance will be ten times as complicated as the Internal Revenue Service code.

Will need $200,000 for ten lawyers and a CPA to run for a house seat in Northwest Louisiana if you had planned to spend $50,000 of flyers and a few radio ads.
 
4steve houpt
      ID: 562201822
      Thu, Mar 22, 02:07
THE TRILLION-DOLLAR LOOPHOLE IN 'CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM'

Section 431(9)(B)(i) of the campaign finance laws wholly exempts from the definition of campaign expenditure: "any news story, commentary or editorial distributed through the facilities of any broadcasting station, newspaper, magazine or other periodical publication."

Hmmmm - don't major corporations own networks, newspapers and magazines. And they can spend and say whatever they want, whenever they want about any politician, political party or special interest. Makes them pretty strong if you take everybody but individual $1,000 contributors out of the political process.

Strip the media of their exemption from the campaign finance laws under section 431(9)(B)(i). Then we'll see how enthusiastic they are about such genius McCain-Feingold "reforms" as banning any mention of a federal candidate for 60 days before an election.
 
5steve houpt
      ID: 562201822
      Thu, Mar 22, 02:27
Here's another one. George Will

The media, exempt from regulations they advocate for rival sources of influence, are mostly John McCain’s megaphones. But consider how empirically unproved and theoretically dubious are his charges of corruption.

.. from 1989 through 1998 the National Rifle Association contributed $8.4 million to congressional campaigns. [3,000,000 members]. Equivalent to $2.80 a member @ $0.28 per year. Of the $4B spent on congressional campaigns those ten years, that is 0.21% of total spending. The NRA is dangerous.

.. to prove corruption one must prove that legislators are acting against their principles, or against their best judgment, or against their constituents’ wishes. Furthermore, claims of corruption seem to presuppose that legislators should act on some notion of the “public good’ unrelated to the views of any particular group of voters.

I doubt if Barbara Boxer or other congressional members would change their views on a womens right to choose if NOW stopped donating to their campaigns. They donate BECAUSE of their views. And people elect them. Is that REALLY wrong?

I think the biggest problem is incumbents do not lose.

Maybe the best reform would be term limits. But long ones. You do need some continuity. Maybe 18 years in Senate. 18 years in House. 30 years combined service between the two. That might not even affect many, but it would some. But I'm not even sure I like that.

I don't have good answers, but I think campaign finance reform as it's playing out is plugging up a few holes, making others bigger and not really solving anything.

Full disclosure of ANY money from any group? Is that possible? Probably not.
 
6saber34
      ID: 202542217
      Thu, Mar 22, 18:11
steve you are on top of this one.
All great information.
I didn't realize the NRA was that powerfull amazing.......
.28 a year with a $25 due (Last I heard) thats a whopping .01% of the NRA subscription/due transfered to politics....

Wonder what the unions give!!!



 
7steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Tue, Mar 27, 09:49
I may be the only one following this here. Maybe the only person in the country other than the major media outlets that would benifit the most.

Different spin against M-F bill.

In Defense of Big Money, Why rich folks deserve a megaphone.

In a pure democracy, the little guys have the most obvious vehicle for changing public policy: the vote. There will always be more "poor" people than rich people (I put poor in quotation marks because I'm talking about comparative wealth, not real poverty. ........... in a democracy they [the "poor"] will always have enough votes to impose their will on the wealthy.

They could do it with a mob or with a tax; .......

What options does the lone landlord or businessman [the "rich"] have?

....... he can bribe a majority ....

....... he could enlist thugs and goons to enforce his will ....

OR - He [the "rich"] would need to make this case by spending a lot of money on commercials and on politicians who understand his concerns. His opponents need not spend much money at all, until, that is, enough people have been persuaded by the landlord's [the "rich"] arguments to make the "pro-theft" crowd a minority. At which point the "pro-thievery" folks will find it necessary to spend some money to argue their side.

 
8Perm Dude
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Mar 27, 09:54
Or he could run for office himself.

pd
 
9biliruben
      ID: 231045110
      Tue, Mar 27, 10:40
Or they could so twist the process that it would be very hard, if not impossible to get anyone but those with friendly towards the rich on the ballot.

A vote isn't a very strong tool of the only people you can vote for are tools of the rich.
 
10Perm Dude
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Mar 27, 10:45
True, true. If the only choices are between candidates who don't have your interests in mind, that's not a real choice.

A democracy is only partially functioning when we have robust voting. Without candidates who reflect voters' interests, there's little incentive to participate.

pd
 
11steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Tue, Mar 27, 11:25
Post 8,9,10 - agree. But what does M-F do to change the process or make it better?

Not just the generic spin, it takes the money out of politics. Never happen.

There's big money in CBS, NBS, ABC, FOX, CNN, MSNBC, NY Times, LA Times. Big money in the Kennedy family, the Bush family, Corzine, Cantrell.

And now it's not a republican, democrat battle. The Wellstone ammendment yesterday to ban ads 60 days prior for to include nonprofit groups (with unions and corporation) such as the Sierra Club and the National Rifle Association -- groups with "501c4" status passed with 24 republicans and 27 democrats.

From CNN - One McCain aide suggested the approval of the Wellstone amendment was part of a Democratic effort to tack on amendments that could ultimately kill the legislation because they privately believe the reform would put them at a fund-raising disadvantage.

The aide even suggested the Democrats are working with McConnell, the Kentucky Republican and the chief foe of the McCain-Feingold bill, to torpedo the legislation.

"If Democrats ultimately vote against final passage, it will be clear that this is part of the Democrats' effort to kill the bill," the aide said.

I knew I agreed with you liberals on some things.
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Mar 27, 12:33
Welcome, Steve!

I don't think the Wellstone amendment will stick. There have been a lot of proposed amendments, and (so far) the proponents of the bills have managed to beat them off. I think even those who are against the bill are anxious to vote this thing down as is, without any changes.

One compromise is a raise in the hard money cap, which has been at $1000 since 1974. A small rise in this cap might make the bill more agreeable to the Republican leadership (and would make it more fair, IMO). Hard donations are trackable, and if we shift some soft money to hard it should answer some of the questions the bill raises without as much of a limitation on donor's speech rights in opening their checkbook.

pd
 
13Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Mar 27, 12:43
I can't imagine that many parts of M-F would pass 1st Ammedment scrutiny - prior restraints on political speech? Seems constitutionally dubious at best. I'm surprised (not really) more hasn't been made of the free speech issues embroiled in M-F. McConnell and George Will have addressed them occasionally, but that's about it.
 
14 Mark L
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Mar 27, 12:48
William Safire's column this morning addresses the free speech issues. Does not see a first amendment problem.
 
15Perm Dude
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Mar 27, 12:51
I believe some of the questions basic were already answered when the 1974 law came about, but I'm not finding anything right now (I thought there might have been some judicial decision on that question after I posted how more hard money would get around the free speech problem).

Certainly if the bill passes, in whatever form, there will be a lawsuit.

I don't think M-F backers are without constitutional concerns, but they have been presenting their bill as more of a correction/tinkering with a 27 year old law that has grown out-of-date.

pd
 
16Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Mar 27, 12:57
The 1974 deals with direct deals with direct political donations - very much a different animal than mandating when, how and how much that non-affiliated persons and entities can speak on issues and electtions.
 
17 Mark L
      ID: 4444938
      Tue, Mar 27, 14:00
Buckley v. Valeo (1976, I think) is the Supreme Court decision on the post-Watergate reforms. Some got struck down, some approved. I am at work so I can't do any further research. :)
 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Mar 27, 14:15
Myboyjack, that is the question that will need to be answered (right after, of course, whether political donations are protected "speech" but it looks like you've already made that leap).

There's little difference between direct political donations to candidates (hard money) and donations to parties (soft money) when it comes to how that money is spent. If the hard money caps pass constitutional muster than soft money will probably as well.

I'm not saying I'm for or against in, BTW. This is such a mess there's no clear answer though we are all crying for some solution.

pd
 
19Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Mar 27, 14:28
Is political donation speech? Somewhat debatable - although I'd have an easy time reaching conclusion that it is.


But as I understand M-F, there would be limitations on ads distributied by private parties, limitations on organzations distibuting pamplets, etc. I don't think there is any debate that this is a limitation on pure political speech (the TV ads, radio spots, tracts, etc) The only quession would be, Do "campaign finance reform concerns trump the 1st Amendment"

There's a big diference in telling someone how much they can give to a canidate (under Valeo, evidently, not a 1st Amendment problem) and telling someone what and when they can distribute purely political speech.

MarkL, do have a link to William Safire's column? Not run in my local paper.
 
20Perm Dude
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Mar 27, 15:14
Myboyjack, Safire's column is probably in the NY Times, free to use but you have to register:

New York Times front page

The argument about donations = speech is the very one many conservatives are having right now. With few options to directly affect representative voting, some view political donations are just being another way to make one's voice heard. I don't buy it, to be honest, but an argument can certainly be made.

Here's some information more to your point about advertising by private citizens or corporations:

To avoid federal contribution limits to candidates, many special interests are collecting unlimited and unregulated amounts of money to fund phony "issue ads." Such ads are designed not simply to discuss issues and ideas but to elect
or defeat candidates. In the 2000 election, such groups spent almost $60 million for TV time alone. And if soft money is banned there is a danger that some former soft money donors will rechannel their contributions into such phony issue ads.

The McCain-Feingold bill gets at the heart of this problem by banning corporations and unions from financing TV or radio ads referring to clearly identified candidates within 60 days of a general election or 30 days of a primary (corporations and unions are already legally forbidden to spend money to influence federal elections). These entities would still be permitted to fund printed communications, direct mail, voter guides, telephone or internet communications mentioning candidates. Non-profit Section 501(c)(4) and 527 advocacy groups are exempt from any limitation on broadcast spending as long as they use only individual contributions (not corporate or union funds). However, the bill requires them to disclose all persons contributing $1,000 or more to any expenditures over $10,000 in an election cycle for such "electioneering" broadcasts.


Source: Public Citizen

Now, some of these ads we've seen clearly are not "issue ads" but are designed to attack one candidate or another. I'm not sure if this is the kind of ad you are looking to keep, but this part of the bill is written to address just those kind of ads.

pd
 
21Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Mar 27, 15:38
Thanks for the links PD.

Is anyone else surprised that the left is willingly going along with a law that allows the government to attempt to determine statutorily whether obvious political speech is a "phony issue ad" or not. Is there any doubt that the ad targeted for prosecution will be detemined solely on the basis of who's in office and who's ox is being gored by the ad? Is there any doubt that once the government gets in the business of regulating the content of political speech (by making determinations on the "phony issue ads", e.g.) that outcome will be Orwellian in nature?
 
22steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Wed, Mar 28, 13:55
Scratch Cantwell from post #11 if this is true.

The Senate's Charity Case

Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.), the former dot-com executive spent $10 million she doesn't have to win her seat.

Two weeks ago, Cantwell failed to pay a hefty bank loan for which she had used her volatile stock in Seattle-based RealNetworks as collateral. Cantwell has another bank note due in full in June.

steve - but it looks like she will be OK if they get some of this done before campaign finance reform is passed. :):)

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) told Roll Call, "We're trying to raise money to help her, trying to give her good advice -- good financial advice."

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-New York) plans to hold a fund-raiser for her impoverished colleague next month at her $2.85 million mansion in Washington, D.C.

Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) has reportedly offered to host a fund-raiser for Cantwell and hook her up to his Massachusetts campaign donor base.

Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) chaired a $200,000 fund-raiser for Cantwell at his D.C. mansion last week.

?? Maybe they should add to the campaign finance reform bill that if you forfeit on your personal campaign debts that won your seat, you lose your seat.
 
23Perm Dude
      ID: 28059111
      Wed, Mar 28, 14:03
not a bad idea, steve. Though I suspect the bank (or their underwriters) should be held partially liable for ponying up a ton of money with only a dot com as colateral.

I once worked on John Glenn's 1984 Presidential campaign. He backed out of the race, but not before getting in debt by millions of dollars. While he could have easily paid off the debt with his own money, he was barred from contributing more than a certain amount to his own campaign per year ($10K, don't remember).

For years afterward he continued to stump and hold fundraisers to pay off the debt. Who's going to come to a fundraiser for a candidate who backed out of the race years ago? Very few, so it took a long time. Did finally pay it off, though.

pd
 
24steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Wed, Mar 28, 14:27
Perm Dude - I thought you could use as much of your own money you want except in Presidential races. And then only if you take federal funds from the $3 income tax check block.

Might be wrong, but I thought that's the only race that you can get federal (taxpayer) funds which would limit your own money.
 
25Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Wed, Mar 28, 15:56
Although I'm sure RealNetworks stock will escalate once everyone sees how much profit they're going to get from the new MLB game-audio deal. . . sarcasm.

Honestly, I don't have much to say on campaign finance reform, other than every time reforms are implemented, the average joe seems to get shafted.

My solution? Cut almost all the red tape, but make mandatory disclosure of ALL contributions to the candidate publicly available. Further, ANY ad funded by a party in a candidate's district has to be "tagged" with a money trail and disclosed. I.e., if Mr. Howe gives $1 billion to the Dem party and they spend $500million in two districts, then Mr. Howe's $500m gets split. Of course there's some fungability here, but you can get some responsibility this way.

Finally, ANY ad referencing any bill in Congress or any proposed legislation has to cite the source from the funding (like they do now, basically) in the ad -- i.e., funded by blah. This refers to third party issue-ads. Obviously, if the funder wishes to associate themselves directly with the candidate, then they wouldn't have to do this, but the candidate would have to accept the contribution, of course.

I think you'll find that candidates will still have incentives to minimize the size of donations and such for political reasons. Like George W.'s solicitations of funds to help the recount effort. He limited the size of the contributions to $1k, IIRC, and then disclosed all the names.

The role of the FEC is to make sure that he actually would do the disclosure part.
 
26Toral
      ID: 452461218
      Wed, Mar 28, 17:17
My take on campaign finance reform: the big problem is Buckley v. Valeo, which was wrongly decided. (Yes, Rehnquuist's fault, one of his 2 bad decisions, the other being Bush v. Gore.) No necessary link between 1st Amendment and right to spend unlimited amount of personal wealth in a democratically regulated election. Rich men and women buying office --alright, access to office, possibility of office -- is the single biggest abuse in the US system (IMO only, obviously.) Liberals and conservatives are equally guilty.

If we were to look at the legislature of some foreign society (ancient Rome, some third world country) and find in it the same proportion of millionaires as there is in the U.S. Senate, many would take it as prima facie evidence that the legislature was popularly unresponsive, if not inherently corrupt.

IIRC Sen. Bill Bradley introduced a constitutional amendment that would have the effect of overruling Buckley v. Valeo. As A GOP Senator, I would have signed on. Guess that would have been the end of my hopes of receiving money from Mitch McConnell's senatorial campaign slush fund!

Toral
 
27steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Thu, Mar 29, 03:13
Buckley vs Valeo

I could run for office. But I Couldn't afford the lawyer and CPA to interpret the regulations already there. But just reading Burger's dissent, I agree with Toral, they blew it.

This is just some excerpts of Burgers dissent (about 1% of whole case - 178 footnotes just in ruling, 21 in Burgers dissent)).

MR. CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER, concurring in part and dissenting in part.

.......... The contribution limitations infringe on First Amendment liberties and suffer from the same infirmities that the Court correctly sees in the expenditure ceilings. ..........

..... More broadly, the Court's result does violence to the intent of Congress in this comprehensive scheme of campaign finance. By dissecting the Act bit by bit, and casting off vital parts, the Court fails to recognize that the whole of this Act is greater than the sum of its parts. [424 U.S. 1, 236] Congress intended to regulate all aspects of federal campaign finances, but what remains after today's holding leaves no more than a shadow of what Congress contemplated. I question whether the residue leaves a workable program. Guess that's why they will push for the 'non-severability' clause in this bill. Dissected this one. .........

(1) Disclosure Provisions

Burger concurs with disclosure, but believes "The Court's theory, however, goes beyond permissible limits" [$10 and $100 for anonymous contributions].

"With commendable candor, the Court acknowledges:

"It is undoubtedly true that public disclosure of contributions to candidates and political parties will deter some individuals
who otherwise might contribute." Ante, at 68.


Examples come readily to mind. Rank-and-file union members or rising junior executives may now think twice before making even modest contributions to a candidate who is disfavored by the union or management hierarchy. Similarly, potential contributors may well decline to take the obvious risks entailed in making a reportable contribution to the opponent of a well-entrenched incumbent. This fact of political life did not go unnoticed by the Congress:

"The disclosure provisions really have in fact made it difficult for challengers to challenge incumbents." 120 Cong. Rec. 34392 (1974) (remarks of Sen. Long).

The public right to know ought not be absolute when its exercise reveals private political convictions. Secrecy, like privacy, is not per se criminal. On the contrary, secrecy and privacy as to political preferences and convictions are fundamental in a free society. For example, one of the great political reforms was the advent of the secret ballot as a universal practice.

Specifically, it has failed to confine the particular exercise of governmental power within limits reasonably required.

"In every case the power to regulate must be so exercised as not, in attaining a permissible end, unduly to infringe the protected freedom." Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296, 304 (1940).

"Unduly" must mean not more than necessary, and until today, the Court has recognized this criterion in First Amendment cases:

"In the area of First Amendment freedoms, government has the duty to confine itself to the least intrusive regulations which are adequate for the purpose." Lamont v. Postmaster General, 381 U.S. 301, 310 (1965) (BRENNAN, J., concurring). (Emphasis added.)

In light of these views, [1] it seems to me that the threshold limits fixed at $10 and $100 for anonymous contributions are constitutionally impermissible on their face. As the Court's opinion notes, ante, at 83, Congress gave little or no thought, one way or the other, to these limits, but rather lifted figures out of a 65-year-old statute. [2] As we are all painfully aware, the 1976 dollar is not what it used to be and is surely not the dollar of 1910.

?? Are anonymous limits still $10 and $100 ??

To argue that a 1976 contribution of $10 or $100 entails a risk of corruption or its appearance is simply too extravagant to be maintained. No public right to know justifies the compelled disclosure of such contributions, at the risk of discouraging them.

There is, in short, no relation whatever between the means used and the legitimate goal of ventilating possible undue influence. Congress has used a shotgun to kill wrens as well as hawks. [424 U.S. 1, 240]

A little humor !!!!!!!

(2) CONTRIBUTION AND EXPENDITURE LIMITS

Concurs ..... Limiting contributions, as a practical matter, will limit expenditures and will put an effective ceiling on the amount of political activity and debate that the Government will permit to take place. The argument that the ceiling is not, after all, very low as matters now stand gives little comfort for the future, since the Court elsewhere notes the rapid inflation in the cost of political campaigning.

Wonder what the court will think if they have not even raised 1974 limits to 2001 inflation. That has been some of the arguments on the $1000 > $2000 and party limits. INFLATION

Finally, it seems clear to me that in approving these limitations on contributions the Court must rest upon the proposition that "pooling" money is fundamentally different from other forms of associational or joint activity. But see ante, at 66. I see only two possible ways in which money differs from volunteer work, endorsements, and the like. Money can be used to buy favors, because an unscrupulous politician can put it to personal use; second, giving money is a less visible form of associational activity. With respect to the first problem, the Act does not attempt to do any more than the bribery laws to combat this sort of corruption. In fact, the Act does not reach at all, and certainly the contribution limits do not reach, forms of "association" that can be fully as corrupt as a contribution intended as a quid pro quo - such as the eleventh-hour endorsement by a former rival, obtained for the promise of a federal appointment. This underinclusiveness is not a constitutional flaw, but it demonstrates that the contribution limits do not clearly focus on this first distinction. To the extent Congress thought that the second problem, the lesser visibility of contributions, required that money be treated differently from other forms of associational activity, disclosure laws are the simple and wholly efficacious answer; they make the invisible apparent.

(3) PUBLIC FINANCING

I dissent from Part III sustaining the constitutionality of the public financing provisions of Subtitle H.

(4) I cannot join in the attempt to determine which parts of the Act can survive review here. The statute as it now stands is unworkable and inequitable. And then Burger saw the soft money coming !!!!!!

I agree with the Court's holding that the Act's restrictions on expenditures made "relative to a clearly identified candidate," independent of any candidate or his committee, are unconstitutional. Paradoxically the Court upholds the limitations on individual contributions, which embrace precisely the same sort of expenditures "relative to a clearly identified candidate" if those expenditures are "authorized or requested" by the "candidate or his agents." The Act as cut back by the Court thus places intolerable pressure on the distinction between "authorized" and "unauthorized" expenditures on behalf of a candidate; even those with the most sanguine hopes for the Act might well concede that the distinction cannot be maintained. As the Senate Report on the bill said:

"Whether campaigns are funded privately or publicly . . . controls are imperative if Congress is to enact meaningful limits on direct contributions. Otherwise, wealthy individuals limited to a $3,000 direct contribution [$1,000 in the bill as finally enacted] could also purchase one hundred thousand [424 U.S. 1, 253] dollars' worth of advertisements for a favored candidate. Such a loophole would render direct contribution limits virtually meaningless." S. Rep. No. 93-689, p. 18 (1974).

Given the unfortunate record of past attempts to draw distinctions of this kind, it is not too much to predict that the Court's holding will invite avoidance, if not evasion, of the intent of the Act, with "independent" committees undertaking "unauthorized" activities in order to escape the limits on contributions. The Court's effort to blend First Amendment principles and practical politics has produced a strange offspring.

Moreover, the Act - or so much as the Court leaves standing - creates significant inequities. A candidate with substantial personal resources is now given by the Court a clear advantage over his less affluent opponents, who are constrained by law in fundraising, because the Court holds that the "First Amendment cannot tolerate" any restrictions on spending.

Minority parties, whose situation is difficult enough under an Act that excludes them from public funding, are prevented from accepting large single-donor contributions. At the same time the Court sustains the provision aimed at broadening the base of political support by requiring candidates to seek a greater number of small contributors, it sustains the unrealistic disclosure thresholds of $10 and $100 that I believe will deter those hoped-for small contributions. Minor parties must now compete for votes against two major parties whose expenditures will be vast. Finally, the Act's distinction between contributions in money and contributions in services remains, with only the former being subject to any limits. As Judge Tamm put it in dissent from the Court of Appeals' opinion:

"[T]he classification created only regulates certain [424 U.S. 1, 254] types of disproportional influences. Under section 591 (e) (5), services are excluded from contributions. This allows the housewife to volunteer time that might cost well over $1000 to hire on the open market, while limiting her neighbor who works full-time to a regulated contribution. It enhances the disproportional influence of groups who command large quantities of these volunteer services and will continue to magnify this inequity by not allowing for an inflation adjustment to the contribution limit. It leads to the absurd result that a lawyer's contribution of services to aid a candidate in complying with FECA is exempt, but his first amendment activity is regulated if he falls ill and hires a replacement." 171 U.S. App. D.C. 172, 266, 519 F.2d 821, 915 (1975).

OK - I can get a lawyer to do $50,000 of work for free, but can't get a $50,000 donation from one so I can hire a lawyer to read this and comply. THESE LIMITS HELP THE LITTLE GUY :):)

One need not call problems of this order equal protection violations to recognize that the contribution limitations of the Act create grave inequities that are aggravated by the Court's interpretation of the Act.

No one has gone to court again to fight the 'free' high priced help some candidates have that you might have to pay for out of your contributions.

I QUIT READING. I see why it's a mess (maybe worse than it was - when they catch the next Nixon, put him in jail as an example). And I can see very little that has been going on in the Senate that will make it any better (or Constitutional - I can't see how this was).
 
28steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Thu, Mar 29, 09:53
Sen Harkin's proposal to get around the SCOTUS ruling that you could not limit totals on campaigns, he wants 'voluntary' limit on SENATE races of $1M plus 50 cents per voting age in the state. Iowa would be +2M, VA +3M, CA +12M.

If you elect to go over the limit, your opponent gets 'Public Financing' at twice the amount you go over. ?? Financing would come from voluntary 'checkoffs' like Presidential race (which they had to raise to $3 because no one was checking) and from FEC fines or you are responsible ??? if funds are not available.

This is ?? voluntary. What if there are no fines. no checkoffs. Say Corzine still wants to spend $60M (SCOTUS said you can spend whatever you want), government or Corzine has to come up with two times $58M for his opponent.

Sounds 'constitutional' to me. LOL LOL

I think they are on drugs or like talking to themselves. Of course Wellstone thinks it's great. He likes talking to himself. Bill would not apply if a Wellstone ammendment was ruled 'unconstitutional' (ban on running issue ads 60 days prior depending on who knows what funny rules).
 
29Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Thu, Mar 29, 17:50
You brought up some very interesting points about my public disclosure plan, steve h. Hmmm. I dunno.

Someone will have to go over the "free speech" part of this again for me. I don't see how the US government has the right to limit the advertising that I buy that's pro-life or pro-choice. Where do you draw the line? All of this seems like items that are protected under the first amendment.

And I can't buy the argument that this is a place where there is an over-whelming public interest in silence. Why should the candidates be the only ones allowed to "speak"? What if we were in a situation where a large percentage of people thought that a "candidate" had fraudulently obtained public campaign funds, and they wanted to pipe up and speak on this issue? Of course, they could be prosecuted for running issue-ads. How convenient. And, once again, which types of speech should become illegal in a campaign? An issue ad on TV? What about radio that reaches fewer people? A website? A public speech by a community leader? A political speech by a preacher in a minority church? What if one of these speeches is "coincidentally" broadcast on the local public TV channel? Or what if that church happens to have a history of broadcasting their "worship" services? What about a person who goes on a talk-show and advocates a position? In fact, why should that talk-show itself be allowed to air? Etc., Etc.

And once you allow these sorts of issue-ads, then the rest of campaign finance limits are rather silly, as I think Burger was pointing out.

It's interesting to recall that we had public voting for much of this country's history. Around the turn of the century, it was gradually abolished, and the political bosses were pissed, as I understand it. Burger's point is well taken -- the secret ballot was a very important innovation.

Bottom line: I don't see how you can effectively regulate this. And I'm not sure that we should be trying.
 
30Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Thu, Mar 29, 17:57
Oh, BTW, Toral. The quantity of millionaires in the Senate is prima facie evidence that the legislature is inherently corrupt and/or unresponsive. But, without corroborating actions, this evidence is worthless.

I think you can argue that at various times, the legislature has been very unresponsive. Including most of the early years of this country (back before the Senate was popularly elected, especially). But as the founding fathers noted, there are worse things than unresponsiveness.
 
31steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Thu, Mar 29, 18:55
Funny you should mention - what if you wanted to speak up, run some ads, hand out flyers - you might be in trouble with the FEC.

Free Speech Costs Money, by Bradley Smith, FEC member

What happens if you take an ad out asking for the president to be impeached and have not registered with the FEC?

What can a group of private citizens get spending $135 on bulletins with a picture of a candidate and his voting record and passing them out?

What can happen to a web site saying 'defeat my representative who voted to impeach the president'?

If you don't follow all the rules, possible trouble.
 
32Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Mar 30, 07:04
Ah. When you put it like that, steve houpt, I'm all for shutting these people up. They're just trouble makers, anyway. Some people need to get a life and go to work rather than make trouble for our political system in this country.

I mean, if you put up a website trying to defend Bill Clinton against impeachment during an election year? Good grief. The FEC better come busting down your door and getting you to shut down. Geez. No wonder we have a criminal problem here in this country.

Further, I've been thinking about it, and I don't think the first Amendment was meant to apply to speech concerning elected officials. I mean, check out the wording:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.".

Clearly, the founding fathers meant to say:
"Congress shall make no law regarding religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof unless the practice therein causes damage to the public good; or abridging the freedom of speech, unless such speech refers to issues of public importance, or of the press as long as they are properly registered and certified; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble as long as they have sought approval from the government, and therefore one will not need to petition the Government for a redress of grievances, since no grievances could have not occurred."

Yep. I like this world a lot better, don't you? Must be cool to have such a nice Big Brother.
 
33biliruben
      ID: 231045110
      Fri, Mar 30, 10:06
Aw, you're still cranky about MLB charging you to listen to your beloved royals. Don't worry, KC will suck anyway - that's my silver-lining re: the dodgers, at any rate. ;)

- MADison (HEY! is that where your moniker comes from! I can't be pretty dense at times.) have any minor league teams worth watching?

 
34biliruben
      ID: 231045110
      Fri, Mar 30, 10:07
er... I CAN be pretty dense...obviously.
 
35Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Mar 30, 17:11
You're darned right I'm still cranky about that! Geez. Thank you, Mr. Selig, can I have another?

And yep, that's where my moniker comes from. No dencity presumed :).

----------------------------

I didn't mean post 32 to seem quite as cranky as it came out. But it disturbs me quite a bit when I don't hear anyone arguing that political free speech is a good thing. I should also note that I've long argued against the Bill of Rights, claiming that they are one of the most unfortunate documents to be written in human history.

With all that said, however, this is exactly the sort of speech that the first amendment was meant to protect -- speech for or against our government and their officials. It should come as no surprise to anyone that the government wishes to curtail such speech and control it. Yes, I know. The motives are pure-hearted. Better elections. Won't elections be so much more civil now? Won't we be able to trust our Representatives? After all, the Representatives must be speaking for us since we're no longer allowed to speak for ourselves.

I'm not a sky-is falling sort. I understand that the FEC will just scare the crap out of some 22 year old web master and get him to shut his site down. I doubt that they'd really prosecute anyone like that. Unless that person tried to reach enough people to swing an election. Think about that caveat.

What if nerveclinic suddenly discovers three days before the election that the incumbent for US Representative in his district has violated the McCain-Feingold campaign finance laws by accepting a major corporate donation from the "local" media conglomerate. Tell me how nerveclinic would pose a threat to our Republic if he runs down to a local Kinkos and prints 50,000 flyers and stages a public rally and pays a bunch of money to a local independent radio station to broadcast a 30 minute spot detailing the facts as he sees them.

And, I should remind everyone, that you have to not only demonstrate that he poses a threat to the Republic, but that the threat is serious enough to warrant the infringement of his right to freely associate with others who may be inclined to listen and to freely speak that which he believes to be the truth.

I don't like this path that we are going down. But the more I think about it, I'm even more disturbed by the lack of defense of the first amendment. 200+ years, and we are still willing to infringe basic rights in order to limit some of the inevitable ugliness that results from true freedom.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe Madison was right. We did need to have this Right listed out in plain English, because the forces to limit freedom are indeed strong; and all the stronger when they are wrapped in sheep's clothing.
 
36steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Fri, Mar 30, 18:12
Madman - the media almost makes Mitch McConnel out to be a fool the way he is fighting for the First Ammendment. The more I listen to him, he may be one of the few in the Senate who is not a fool when it comes to the First Ammendment.

Here is Senator Phil Gramm's speech on CFR. Link to thomas.loc.gov no longer active. Copied from another site freerepublic.com

Mr. President, we are in the process of rapidly completing this bill (McCain-Fiengold). I would not have come over to speak, except that it was clear to me that, for the moment, nothing was happening. I have not yet spoken on it. And while I think it is clear what the outcome will be (Passage), I at least want to go on record on this issue.

Free speech in America is a very funny thing. If a person goes out and burns the American flag and they say they are exercising free speech or they dance naked in a nightclub and say that that was personal expression, a league of defenders springs up in America to defend the first amendment of the Constitution. Yet when someone proposes that we preserve free speech about the election of our Government and the election of the men and women who serve the greatest country in the history of the world, when such a motion is made, it dies from a lack of a second.

It is astounding to me that free speech in America has come to protect flag burning and nude dancing but yet the greatest deliberative body in the history of the world feels perfectly comfortable in denying the ability of free men and women to put up their time and their talent and their money to support the candidates of their choice.

I can't help but say a little something about the protagonists in this debate. I would like to begin by saying of my dear friend Senator McCain, with whom I profoundly differ on this issue, I have the highest respect for him. In fact, he has reminded me in this debate of an ancient god, Antaeus, whose mother was the earth, and every time he was thrown to the ground, he became stronger than he had been when he was cast down.

Having said that, having admired his diligence and his determination, I would say that seldom has a more noble effort been made on behalf of a poorer cause in the history of the U.S. Senate.

I would like to say of our colleague from Kentucky (Sen McConnell) that he has again won our admiration and our respect. He has been vilified in every media outlet in the Nation. Yet his sin is to stand up and defend freedom.

You ask yourself: Why do people want to influence the Government? Why do people want to influence the Government of the United States of America? It seems to me there are really two reasons: One, they have strong feelings about something. They love their country. They have strong passions and they want to express them. And who would want to prevent them from expressing themselves? I say nobody should.

The second reason they want to influence the Government is that the Government spends $2 trillion a year, most of it on a noncompetitive basis. The Government sets the price of milk. The Government grants numerous favors. If we were serious about campaign reform, we would try to change the things that lead people to want to influence the Government for their advantage, and we would want to leave in place a system where people could express their love and their passions. Yet there is no proposal here to end the Government setting the price of milk. There is no proposal here that would have competitive bidding on contracts. Instead, we single out one source of influence, and that source of influence is money. Our problem is not bad money corrupting good men, our problem is bad men corrupting good money.

When I listen to my colleagues talk about this corrupting influence, let me say they apparently have lived a different political life than I have lived. I have never in my 22 years in public office and in the 2 years prior to that, when I ran unsuccessfully for the Senate and lost, had anyone come up to me and say: If you will vote the way I want you to vote, I will contribute to your campaign. I am proud that 84,000 people contribute to my campaign, and I believe they contribute to me because they believe in the things I believe in. I am proud to have their support. I don't apologize for it.

Remember this, and this is what is lost in this whole debate: This is an Alice in Wonderland debate where black is white and wrong is right. It's a debate that ignores the fundamental nature of the American political system. Government has power and people want to influence it. If we limit the power of people to spend their money, we strengthen the power of people who exert influence in other ways. We don't reduce power. We don't reduce whatever corruptive influence may exist among the people who want to influence government. We simply take power away from some people and, by the very nature of the system, we give it to somebody else.

Why should the New York Times have more to say in my election than the New York Stock Exchange? Is the New York Times not a for-profit company? Why should they have the right to run editorials and write front-page articles that can have a profound impact on your election, and they are a for-profit corporation, publicly traded, and yet we say in this bill, they, but not others, have freedom of speech? They can say whatever they want to say. But yet the New York Stock Exchange is denied the same freedom. How can that be rational? How can that be just?
 
37steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Fri, Mar 30, 18:14
Same topic from slate.com and a Gore supporter during the election.

Confessions of a McCain-Feingold Criminal, If I go down, I'm taking the Washington Post down with me. By Michael Kinsley

Only two things keep my Form 1099 from being evidence of an "independent expenditure" and a violation of various restrictions and reporting requirements . . . One is that McCain-Feingold isn't yet the law. The other is that the campaign-finance laws specifically exempt the media. Current federal regulations declare that the word "expenditure" does not include "any cost incurred in covering or carrying a new story, commentary, or editorial by any broadcasting station (including a cable television operator, programmer, or producer), newspaper, magazine, or other periodical publication" unless it is controlled by a political party or candidate.

Journalists generally support McCain-Feingold for the same reason other citizens do: They believe—correctly—that the current arrangement stinks. But the media exemption does mean that certain provisions of McCain-Feingold fail the "sauce for the gander" test.

. . . . the New York Times editorial page has been ridiculing the idea that "money equals speech." But suppose that Congress decided to restrict the amount of money one could spend publishing a newspaper? After all, the New York Times is as entrenched an incumbent as any elected politician. It uses its position to raise millions of dollars from other corporations, allowing them in return to flagrantly advance their private agendas in its pages. Limiting what the Times can spend might open up room for new voices and liberate the Times itself to think more about the public interest and less about how to attract more advertising.

. . . . [or] no editorials endorsing a candidate for office within 60 days of the election; registration and reporting of who writes each editorial, how much that person is paid, what the Times charges for those mock-editorial ads on the op-ed page, and so on. All accompanied by detailed rules to enable the government to decide when news analysis crosses over into advocacy.

I think the New York Times might object.
 
38Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Sat, Mar 31, 01:13
Glad to know at least a few people are indeed raising this argument, steve houpt. Nude-dancing is speech, but paying for the cost of broadcasting your point of view isn't. Very funny. Or sad, depending on your point of view.
 
39steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Mon, Apr 02, 04:22
How did McCain and Feingold push CFR?

With $73M in soft money donations, media support and financing specific projects to insure that the media is properly trained on the issue of campaign finance reform - to the tune of $1.16 million [from the Joyce Foundation].

Rich Leftists Bankroll John McCain's Assault on Freedom.

But a NY Times article thinks Campaign Finance Overhaul May Enhance Influence of Big PAC's.

. . . suddenly, the large labor groups, corporations, trade associations and ideological organizations that funnel their political largess through PAC's may find that they are the largest players on the field because their soft-money competitors can no longer participate. Many campaign finance experts say a resurgence of PAC's would return the system to its state in the 1980's, when soft money was not as critical.

To some degree, the PAC's could even displace the political parties, whose budgets would be decimated by the elimination of soft money.

About 70 corporate executives who attended a private briefing in New York on Friday, where the ramifications of the campaign finance bill sponsored by Senators John McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Russell D. Feingold, Democrat of Wisconsin, were discussed, were told of the heightened importance of PAC's.

Here are some of Sen McConnell's comments on the floor of the Seante [printed in NY Times]. Page one [of course :)] has Sen McCain's comments

. . . . the only way to really get at the core of this problem if senators believe that the influence of money in politics is so pernicious is to change the First Amendment. You have to go right to the core of the problem. . . . . .
Senator Fritz Hollings, will offer that amendment [so that the federal and all 50 state governments can have the unfettered latitude to regulate, restrict and even prohibit any expenditures, quote, by, in support of or in opposition to a candidate for public office] at some point, as he has periodically over the years. He deserves a lot of credit for understanding the nub of the problem. The nub of the problem is you can't do most of these things as long as the First Amendment remains as it is.

And it's worth noting that that would also apply to the media. While one of the world's largest defense contractors, such as General Electric, could even be prohibited from owning America's number one television station, such as NBC, and a news anchor such as Tom Brokaw could be prohibited from even mentioning a candidate's name within 60 days of an election. This is a serious proposal. . . .

. . . . Each of those interests who care about what we're doing here, who believe that it may have an impact on their business or their interest [I think that is a key point - what congress does affects business and people and you can't try and shut them up], cannot be constitutionally restricted from speaking. Maybe some court somewhere would let us completely federalize the national parties, completely eliminate their ability to operate in state and local races in federal dollars. Maybe some court would let us do that. But no court in America, no federal court in America, is going to let us quiet the voices of all these interests who have a perfect right to go out and engage in issue advocacy up to and including the day of the election.

Steve houpt - VOTERS [people] elect their representatives. Money (ANY - not just BIG) is only effective in getting 'politicians' elected because the public that is voting does not bother to inform themselves on the issues or the candidates. The voters LET the money influence them [their VOTE]. If they did not, then the money would be basically irrelevant. WHY limit the First Amendment because a majority of the public (I was one of those in the past) does not take it's voting responsibility serious (or does not have the time). Just look at Florida's voters.

Do you think the voters would select 'better' Congressional representation or Presidents just because [soft] 'money' is out of politics? NO WAY!!

The [Senate now] is making a [bigger] mess out of a complcated political system by trying to regulate only 'parts' of the system.

Final quote from dissent of Justice Burger - There are many prices we pay for the freedoms secured by the First Amendment; the risk of undue [424 U.S. 1, 257] influence is one of them, confirming what we have long known: Freedom is hazardous, but some restraints are worse.
 
40Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Mon, Apr 02, 08:05
Good comments, steve h. I think I agree with you almost totally.
--------------------

Someone please rectify my ignorance. A quote from the Buckley v. Valeo argument:

"We cannot share the view that the present Act's contribution and expenditure limitations are comparable to the restrictions on conduct upheld in O'Brien. The expenditure of money simply cannot be equated with such conduct as destruction of a draft card. Some forms of communication made possible by the giving and spending of money involve speech alone, some involve conduct primarily, and some involve a combination of the two. Yet this Court has never suggested that the dependence of a communication on the expenditure of money operates itself to introduce a non speech element or to reduce the exacting scrutiny required by the First Amendment. See Bigelow v. Virginia, 421 U.S. 809 , [424 U.S. 1, 17] 820 (1975); New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, supra, at 266. For example, in Cox v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 559 (1965), the Court contrasted picketing and parading with a newspaper comment and a telegram by a citizen to a public official. The parading and picketing activities were said to constitute conduct "intertwined with expression and association," whereas the newspaper comment and the telegram were described as a "pure form of expression" involving "free speech alone" rather than "expression mixed with particular conduct." Id., at 563-564. "

The cause of my perplexity:

Why is "symbolic speech" necessary for this argument that money = speech?

Consider:

In the first amendment, the Const. explicitly states that Congress shall not infringe upon the " freedom of speech, or of the press".

These two items are mentioned together for a very significant reason. You cannot have free speech without freedom to contract with the media. What would the meaning of free speech be if the government could prohibit you from speaking loud enough to be heard?

Surely the founding fathers were not talking about the "press" in a literal sense here. The idea of media conglomerates was extremely foreign to them. Individuals printing up individual flyers were surely considered under the provision.

The analogy between a private flyer and a commercial spot seems clear. They are both means of communicating the spoken word.

The burning of the draft card was an action almost made it under the cover of the first amendment, apparently. But the burning of the draft card is not necessary to effectively communicate a distaste for government policy.

What is necessary to communicate such a distaste is some ability to control or conscript or contract with the media. By regulating the amount of media resources campaigns can freely acquire, the government is inherently regulating free speech. Not in a symbolic manner, but in a direct and most obtrusive way that cannot be more counter to the ideals and goals of the first Amendment.

In this interpretation, over the last 30 years, our government has engaged in a novel attack on the freedom of speech. Rather than prohibit the act of speaking, they are seeking to limit the manner in which those who speak can be heard. The founding fathers saw this fundamental requirement that practical freedom of speech necessitates the free acquisition of resources to propogate such speech. They explicitly protected those devices that enable speech to become communication, and for spoken words to be heard.

Further, the newspaper in one of the above cases is deemed to be a pure expression of speech! But yet it required substantial sums of money to publish and print and distribute and research the newspaper. No one would suggest putting spending caps on the editors or owners of the print media. (OK, this is not true. This has indeed been suggested. But it's not yet meritting serious support, perhaps not because the ideal of freedom is loved, but rather because denial of such would be so blatant).

So why do we insist on putting caps on those too poor to wholly purchase their own media, and rather just choose to buy the rights to small fragments of print or air time? Why is such a minor personage so much more trivial than the original owners of the print media itself?

--------------------------
The above argument surely is not novel. Why have the courts not considered it? Or why do they consider it to be unworthy? At the moment, I cannot see the fallacy, whereever it might lie.
 
41Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Mon, Apr 02, 09:27
Madman, someone will surely correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the Court has ever upheld a limitation on the amount that can be spent by any individual in an elction to get their political message out. Of course, that' just what M-F attempts to do - but I don't think it has any real chance to withstand Constituional muster.

What the Court has allowed is a limitation on how much money a politician can accept from one individual (I have a problem with that limitation, as well.) The Court has said that the mere act of giving money to a political cause is not, of itself, speech. That's a far cry from holding that publication of message through a media outlet is not speech - and that's a major legal hurdle ,IMHO, for M-F.

Maybe I'm way off base, but I really find M-F to be a collossal waste of time, because it is, as I see it, so inherently contradictory to everything that the 1st Ammendment has stood flow - free, unfettered public discourse.

 
42Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Mon, Apr 02, 10:06
myboyjack

From what I can gather, I think we both agree that our interpretation of M-F is that it does *exactly* prohibit parties and campaigners from raising too much money.

So the issue is what has been ruled on previously.

Bottom line. mere act of giving money to a political cause is not itself free speech. . . This is the rub. It's speech in two ways.

First, it is the fundamental mechanism whereby the candidate can fully express himself. A law taking money away from a candidate is economically equivalent to a law artificially raising the cost of advertising. Surely the latter would be deemed constitutional. Therefore, the former (it's logical equivalent) must be as well.

Second, there are substantial costs to effectively speaking in today's world. There were substantial costs to doing so in 1787. This is why Congress specifically said that you couldn't implicitly restrict speech by restricting access to the press. By saying that I can only buy $1000 of a candidate's advertising, this is a most direct infringment. A personal expenditure of $1000 on advertising isn't the same speech as an expenditure made as part of a group.

If you doubt this, watch a home movie and compare it to Star Wars, Episode I. A home movie was an individuals' self-expression. Star Wars was implicitly funded by millions of citizens banding together (OK, it was funded by a huge media conglomerate on the very rational expectation that their initial capital expenditure and risk would be paid back by the masses. You get the idea.).

Tell me that home movies are as entertaining and effective as Hollywood productions, and I will yield the point. :)
 
43Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Mon, Apr 02, 11:27
Madman, I don't think we disagree at all. IMO, donating money to a political is an act protected, absolutely, by the 1st Amendment.

However, SCOTUS hasn't seen it that way in the past. I don't have to agree with them, but that is, for now, the state of the law as I understand it.

The point I was (unsuccesfully?) trying to make is that M-F goes miles beyond what SCOTUS has held to be Constitutionally permissible, by not only indirects limitation, i.e., limiting the practicle means of political speech in today's most viable political forums (via contribution limitations) but actually directly limits speech content, and timing, quality, etc. This goes so far beyond he bounds of reasonable limits on speech as to be ridiculous.
 
44Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Mon, Apr 02, 13:44
Myboyjack I think we understand each other.

I'm just looking for the Supreme Argument against this point of view. What's the legal justification for making the distinction between money and speech?

And from what I've heard, I think you're right that M-F goes beyond. We're on a slippery slope. McCain even argued as much yesterday morning. This is just the second or third step in a long process to regain control of our elections.
 
45steve houpt
      ID: 32237269
      Mon, Apr 02, 18:09
This is how the NY Times really feels. Their OP-ED. They were 'trained well', or have been the 'trainers'.

Senate Passage for Reform

The great day has finally arrived . . . . [? did Supreme Court said CFR in unconstitutional :)]

. . . . a measure of historic importance that will fundamentally reform a campaign financing system . . . [? was freedom of speech has returned - media importance reduced :)]

The reformers have had to beat back not only a direct challenge to the bill in the form of a devious alternative that had President Bush's endorsement . . . . . [? devious]

On Thursday, the bill passed its last major test, a dangerous "non-severability" amendment . . . [? dangerous]

What has emerged is a fair and balanced bill that would eliminate the corrupting flow of soft money . . . [? fair in the mind of the NY Times maybe]

Soft money, the unregulated donations by corporations, unions and rich individuals to the political parties, has always been the main target . . . [? but not the print media or TV]

. . . the reformers owe a greater debt to Tom Daschle, the Senate Democratic leader, who held his wavering troops together despite growing fears among some Democrats that the bill would place them at a fund- raising disadvantage. [they are counting on the NY Times to campaign for them for free]

The House Democratic leader, Richard Gephardt, faces a major test of his ability to keep his colleagues in line and press Mr. Hastert for an early vote. [NY Times starting the pressure on the House already - Hastert has said they won't touch it until tax reform and budget are done - dems need 218 signatures to bring it to floor]

. . . . it is hard to see how reform can be denied from now on. The public has spoken resoundingly on this matter. [most polls I have read, public does not really care]
 
46Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Mon, Apr 02, 20:47
Steve - Most ironic statement in all that "The public hs spoken" LOL -

I hope the public truly HAS spoken - if M-F has its way, it may be the last time the public is allowed to speak absent the consent of the government. (I always thought it was the government that derived its power from the consent of the governed - not vice versa).

Is Orwell, Huxley, or Bradbury the most appropriate metaphor for this turn of events wherein the press stands on the sidelines and cheers while the politicians pass laws that effectively diminish to the point of complete insignificance all avenues of dissent?
 
47Perm Dude
      ID: 582521316
      Mon, Apr 02, 20:54
C'mon, Myboyjack, talk about doomsday!

Listen, I'm still reading over a lot of things about the bill, which I like overall but has troubling aspects. However, if you don't like the bill the fact that it is facing a vote without amendments should be a good thing; it's not watered down, it's bald-faced as it were, and you don't have to worry about your representative voting for something that isn't clear.

I think the speach problem is troubling (and Mitch McConnell will file suit about 15 minutes after it passes to get a SCOTUS look at the thing) but most of the questions it raises were already raised in the 1974 law.

pd
 
48Myboyjack
      ID: 4443038
      Mon, Apr 02, 20:59
:-) PD, I admit it - I read Brave New World on an airline trip this weekend and it's on my brain.
 
49steve houpt
      ID: 2133444
      Thu, Apr 05, 00:27
It's so hard to keep track of where the money came from. I remember reading about all the money the Bush campaign raised in the primaries. Sometimes you got the impression this was 'soft oil' money that Bush got.

Reading an article in WSJ, it says the $100M Bush raised was 'hard' money. With the hard money raised to $2,000 and as an incumbant, it claims a Bush manager could raise $200-300M if he wants in 2004. ??

CAMPAIGN REFORM

 
50biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Thu, Jul 12, 18:31
It what should be a surprise to noone, campaign finance was shelved, perhaps indefinitely in the House.

Greedy, do-nothing, manipulative rabble. How can you expect rats to take cheeze out of their own mouths.

Down with the 2-party system!

 
51steve houpt
      ID: 566481018
      Thu, Jul 12, 18:48
biliruben - I watched C-Span this morning and Rep Ford (D), supporting Shays/Meehan and Rep Ney (R), supporting his bill were on. Some very good discussion. And it sounded like vote was very undecided about which bill would prevail when they came to the floor. No discussion about it not even making it to the floor.

Hard to figure out who 'killed' the bills. Both were stopped from coming to the floor over a disagreement on the rules on procedure (REP's) voted out of committee.

At least it keeps the Supreme Court from having to knock it down if it had passed.

Preserves free speech. I can continue to be sure for a little while that all my soft donations to NOW, ACLU, Trial Lawyers Association, NEA, DNC and American Federation of Teachers will continue to be put to good use. :)
 
52biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Thu, Jul 12, 19:08
lol, steve. Give until it hurts. ;)
 
53Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Jul 13, 00:53
Wow. I guess the movement to limit voter registration and voter-turnout drives isn't all powerful.

I've found it interesting watching this sort of debate. Democrats claim to be "for the people" and promote voter turnout, etc. McCain-Feingold puts those principles to the test, however, and most Democrats come out with a failing grade. Even more shocking than their attempt to limit funding for those sorts of activities is the fact that they are even claiming that voter-turnout drives and such "subverts" Democracy. LOL.
 
54Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Jul 13, 02:01
Hmmm. I'm ignorant. John Fund explanation of what happened. This seems like a reasonable explanation.

He also claims that Shays-Meehan doesn't ban soft-money. He claims that they just restrict the ways soft-money can be spent, specifically exempting voter registration drives.

Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. I kept hearing "ban soft money".
 
55steve houpt
      ID: 566481018
      Fri, Jul 13, 10:18
Madman - I think the soft money issues were part of the 12 [late] ammendments. Rep Ney mentioned to Rep Ford yesterday morning when he claimed it banned soft money that he apparently had not seen all 12 ammendments that were being proposed by Shays/Meehan supporters.

The voter registration 'loophole' was to try and get the black caucus back onboard.

OT - Boston Herald says Meehan's one claim to fame may have died and his district may vanish.

Marty at a loss if mad shuffle whacks the 5th
 
56Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Jul 13, 13:10
steve houpt -- I'd like to think that I'm not THAT ignorant, so I'll believe your interpretation where this was part of an amendment :)

It's nice to see that the black caucus isn't hypocritical here. Although the Democratic leadership has some explaining to do.
 
57steve houpt
      ID: 2006921
      Mon, Jan 14, 2002, 12:02
Have heard a few (Corzine was one - I'm sure McCain if he's been on TV) use Enron as a reason to push CFR again (ie - immediatley). I don't think the Enron collapse changes anything as far as CFR.

Enron's Political Contributions: Another Bad Investment

Recent revelations about Enron's extensive political contributions have been portrayed as impugning the integrity of the Bush administration and bolstering the case for campaign finance reform. However, upon closer scrutiny, it is apparent that Enron's bevy of political contributions provided the company little political power when it most needed it.

Thus, far from proving the need for campaign finance reform, the Enron debacle illustrates that political contributions may be one of the worst investments a business can make. The real lesson from this fiasco may be that company shareholder representatives and boards of directors should be more skeptical of the utility of corporate political expenditures.
---------------------
. . . many successful large companies have decided to curtail their political contributions and are doing quite well without them. Among the companies that have recently stopped making soft-money contributions to the political parties are General Motors, Monsanto, Time Warner, and Allied Signal. "We're not going to contribute 'soft money' at the federal level any more; we've decided it's not a beneficial practice," said Linda Fisher, Monsanto's vice president for government and public affairs.

There are certainly many lessons to be learned from Enron's implosion, but there is simply no evidence that either Republican or Democratic officials did anything improper on behalf of the company. Instead of demonstrating the need for campaign finance reform, Enron's excessive political contributions may have only been yet another of its many bad investments.
 
58Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 12:49
Some perspective against the growing mantra that the Enron fiasco is evidence in support of CFR.
 
59steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 13:49
Myboyjack - CFR supporters (and Gebhart last night) are betting the American people can be fooled. That the public is not very smart. That public opinion can be swayed. I think they can.

Why do they want it? So the media can be even a more major influence in politics.

And it's one of the few things Democratic leaders (not all) think they can talk about (not necessarily with any intelligence either). But when you hope the audience you want to appeal to is 'not so smart' or does not take the time to become informed, who cares what you say. Media (ABC, CBS, NBC, NYT) won't question it. They are not talking to anyone with intelligence or that is informed on this issue (CFR itself = intelligent different opinions; Enron = must CFR, talking to the uninformed). They have Enron, CFR, Social Security scare tactics, Medicare scare tactics and prescription drugs promise. Not much to talk about.

The same people that scream the government is infringing on our constitutional rights, will blindly follow these 1st ammendment rights to the bottom of the sea.

I hope there are a few in Congress that are still willing to stand up and fight and risk political disaster. 218 signatures to bring it to the floor in house does not mean 218 votes. I have heard it will be flooded with ammendment proposals. Maybe they can get enough proposals passed to make it constitutional (could even save money court battles would cost if McCain bill passed).
 
60Seattle Zen
      ID: 411302615
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 14:54
Steve

You are one of the very few people I have heard who is against CFR in principle. I know of no one else who thinks that the present practice of hundreds of millions of dollars pouring into political campaigns is healthy and should be encouraged.

The present CFR proposals do not go far enough. Ideally, we would have complete public financing of campaigns and NO Television comercials. It is not a violation of First Amendment rights to prohibit cigarette and liquor ads over the airwaves because the ads are harmful and rightfully banned. I would argue that political campaign advertising is even more harmful to our democratic form of electing officials and an outright ban is due.

Candidates will have to resort to PRINTED WORD sent through the mail or e-mail to get his or her word out. Televised debates will once again become an important tool in the public's choice of candidates. And, yes, national corporate media will have a large roll in choosing the President, nothing new there, but only the President. (I don't know why Republicans get all up in arms, corporate media has shifted the playing field so far to the right that there is only one party left in this nation, conservative, with either Regular or Ultra-Conservative wings. What corporate media outlet championed Ralph Nader?)

Public Financing would prohibit self-financed candidates like John Corzone D-NJ, Mayor Bloomburg, Maria Cantwell, etc... from buying elections. If everyone gets the same amount of $$ to spend, then theoretically the candidate with the best plan and ideas will get to run. If incumbents and challenegers are limited to spending the same amount of $$, perhaps new blood will fill the chambers more frequently.

Whatever we decide, it HAS to be better than the embarrassment of a system we have now.
 
61Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 18:28
SZ ..."I would argue that political campaign advertising is even more harmful to our democratic form of electing officials and an outright ban is due. " ?????

Political speech is dangerous to a democracy? Do you have any idea how bizarre that sounds?

Also, I'm sure you know that the analogy to limitations placed on tobacco and alcohol ads is bogus - or would lower political speech to the standards of protection traditionally given commercial speech.

Let me make sure I understand the position of some on the left: If John Ashcroft doesn't like a pair of marble boobs encroaching upon every photo op. in his office he's a repressive prude - but if some politico wants to talk about issues central to an election, they are a danger to our democracy. OK. Now I get it....
 
62E'ville
      Leader
      ID: 29017810
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 18:42
SZ. If I remember correctly no one backed Nader because they were busy shouting from the rooftops for him to back out so Big Al could get more votes.

Not much point in reform unless you tie in some really strict laws with tighter standards for liable to prevent media manipulation. If twisting your opponents words was a crime then you could get to the issues.

 
63Seattle Zen
      ID: 411302615
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 19:05
Myboyjack-

I bet that, media willing, an imaginary person could be elected to the House. If you buy enough TV ads, people will vote for you, regardless of what your opponent says. The public is going to listen to 35 repeated "I'm for lower taxes and family values" ads and give them more weight than 3 repeated "My opponent does not even exist, he is imaginary, has anyone even seen him?" ads. (I guess we could ask John Ascroft what it's like to lose to a corpse as a close analogy)

Sad, but true.

Willie Horton and Lies, Lies, Lies will get you voted in every time.

Limitations can be placed on political speech over the publicly-owned wavelenghts as long as they are imposed indiscriminately and an outright ban could be possible, but the thought that Congress would willingly cut off its own right foot are pipe dreams, unfortunately.

Where did you get the idea that I believe: if some politico wants to talk about issues central to an election, they are a danger to our democracy?

I am just against lying over the airwaves, and since you cannot ban "lying" in TV political ads, I am for the outright ban of them. There still is the written word.
 
64biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 19:10
MBJ #61 - It is just one boob, and I believe it is metal, not marble. ;)
 
65steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Wed, Jan 30, 2002, 19:11
All for it when you ban lying in the media.

If my money can't help run ads, then the media is the only one left to talk about the candidates an dpolitics. I have a right to donate money to groups I want to support.

CFR does not stop lies from the media. They are exempt because of 1st ammendment. What about my 1st ammendment rights.
 
66Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Feb 01, 2002, 01:09
CFR, like previous CFR bills, is simply about making it harder for newbies to displace incumbents. Everything in current CFR bills makes the advantages of name recognition, size of war chests, etc., MORE important, not less.

CFR is like telling the foxes to regulation access to the hen house. That's actually WHY we have the first amendment -- to guarantee that no one can interfere with the rights of people to have their POLITICAL speech heard.

Is the current system good? Of course not. Past CFR bills have done damage to the system. Was the system before that good? Of course not. Just like Democracy itself, it's simply the least of all evils.
 
67steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 11:54
Another Obstacle to Reform (just the NYT opinion)

NYT is afraid a few House members might try fiddle with Shays - Meehan bill (back to complete ban on issue ads - which "is seen as too broad and open to constitutional challenge"). NYT wants those members to leave it alone (now banned 60 days before election, 30 days before primary - isn't that basically 'banned' anyway).

They fear this will kill the bill. [breaks my heart].

What is humorous is that NYT can 'warn' (threaten) these representatives by name not to 'fiddle' in an editorial (and if they did 'fiddle', remind voters everyday about up to an election). But they don't want someone running an issue ad 60 days prior to an election that could help or hurt representatives. Want to bet if they 'fiddle' with Shays - Meehan, NYT is reminding constituents within 60 days of the election. Isn't that an issue (CFR) ad?

"Those who persist in fiddling with Shays-Meehan must be told by their constituents that voters will not tolerate changes that threaten the bill. Two area Republicans in particular need to hear that message: Rodney Frelinghuysen of New Jersey and Sue Kelly of New York. Doug Ose of California should also pay heed."
 
68Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 13:11
I'm going to have to look this up, but is this related to the fact that the newer Shays-Meehan bill was stripped of section 206 -- the section that would have shut down this site?

When I looked up the latest version of the bill, it seemed largely "neutered". Basically, it would change the way corporations buy off politicians, with less soft money and more direct advertisement on positions and issues.

In other words, there IS indeed a huge loophole in the current bill. However, closing this loophole would shut-down this site. I really don't see how the law can differentiate between those two extremes.
 
69sarge33rd
      ID: 28133216
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 13:35
I suggested in my college poli-sci class, that campaign spending be limited to no more than 1/2 the total income from the position over the term of that position. Afterall, if it pays to spend 3 times as much trying to get the job as the job itself pays...deductive logic would conclude that excessive graft exists. (how else condone spending $3 million dollars to win an $80k job for 6 years???) What this would 'hopefully' accomplish, is to force the candidates to address the issues, as insufficient funds would be available to spend them all 'mud-slinging'.
 
70Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 12041621
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 18:30
Sarge, are you talking about the candidate spending that much? Or any contributors?

What about state & local races, some of which are virtually volunteer?

I agree a lot with SZ. If you believe that contributions are speech, than you can't believe that it is healthy for our democracy to allow those with means to speak hundreds of times louder than those without.

I don't believe that political contributions are speech, or a form of speech. It's money, used in the hopes to purchase access in order to get political, economic, or social advantages. To call political contributions anything other than what it is leads you down all sorts of bad analogies.

Speech is communication. Money is a medium of exchange. Let's not confuse the two.

pd
 
71Baldwin
      ID: 310261322
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 19:52
Nice hubris PD. 8] Simplify our intellectual lives and outlaw analogy. Good of you to do so.

Let's judge each analogy on it's merits and admit that human reason advances by using analogy.

If the media were to the right of Rush Limbaugh would you be so keen to restrict access to the airwaves and advertisement inches thus multiplying the effect of the editorial slant?
 
72Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 12041621
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 21:14
Unless Rush Limbaugh is a candidate for office I don't see campaign finance reform having any influence on him. Or other political entertainers (pundits of both sides).

The problem with that particular analogy is that it causes us to not only miss the effects of changes but the effects of the philosophies of both sides.

And campaign finance is an issue which should be understood in light of equal protection, not as some kind of unfair-but-tolerated counterweight to a perceived media bias. Certainly if Dems were outspending Republicans you'd be on the same page: pounding out pages of prose about the innate unfairness of it sprinkled with plenty of Founding Father quotes.

pd
 
73Baldwin
      ID: 310261322
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 21:42
Actually Dems have closed the soft money gap so that isn't the issue it once was for you.
 
74Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 12041621
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 22:01
It is for me, because it never was about the gap.

And I never understood the appeal of someone saying that the other side only wanted to reform things because of a spending gap, frankly. "Stole it fair and square" and "You only want to change things because you are jealous" reveal fundamental misunderstandings of the nature of the problems as well as paint those who would try to address the problems with far too wide a brush.

I love the fact that the House got the minumum number if only because I'm happy to have this issue up front being discussed. I suspect that people on both sides of this issue signed up simply for that reason.

pd
 
75Baldwin
      ID: 310261322
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 22:14
Interesting trend

In 1999 and 2000, according to the Federal Election Commission, the Democrats raised 99 percent as much soft money as the GOP. Between 1993 and 2000, they raised 89 percent as much. Between 1977 and 1992, they raised 34 percent as much. Why have the Democrats caught up?

To be complete I should point out that in the current election cycle so far the Dems are getting murdered in campaign fund raising.
 
76Thomas Jefferson
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 23:32
PD 70 -- If you believe that contributions are speech, than you can't believe that it is healthy for our democracy to allow those with means to speak hundreds of times louder than those without.

Truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; ... she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.
 
77Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 23:45
PD 70 -- Speech is communication. Money is a medium of exchange. Let's not confuse the two.

The federal government isn't proposing to limit my ability to own money. The federal government is proposing to limit my ability to voice my opinions. Thus your proposed distinction is devoid of any intellectual substance.

The only reason some can get by with the attempt to confuse the two is that the federal government is choosing to MEASURE the degree to which my opinions have been heard in dollars. However, the objective has nothing to do with money; the objective is to limit my speech, and they hope to get by with that by simply calling it something else. But if it walks like a duck, acts like a duck, then it likely talks like a duck, as long as it hasn't used up its allotment of commercial slots.

Interesting question: If a candidate banned from TV gives a campaign speech that no one hears, does he make a sound?
 
78Guru
      ID: 21020124
      Mon, Feb 04, 2002, 23:48
I am hereby banning any future Madman posts for the next 5 hours. Anyone who posts too much threatens the very foundations of democracy, and Madman meets that criteria.

In the interest of fair and open debate, I hereby declare that everyone can attack Madman's positions for the next 5 hours, and he will not be allowed to respond on these boards.

Can't have an unfair, un-democratic debate going on here.
 
79Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 00:01
BTW, I don't want to be accused of doing a "What about Bob". I obviously posted 76-78. Those are indeed Thomas Jefferson's words in post 76 (from A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom).

Post 78 is meant to illustrate the absurdity of having an external entity impose an artificial cap. Real life actually works much better -- if one side starts to run short of money, they can take their arguments to some rich people and say "look at how good our argument is. Give us more cash, and we can get it out there." If the argument has some selling power, they can likely get the cash, buy more ad spots, and respond to accusations. If the argument sucks, they'll run out of cash, and their run will end. In other words, from my perspective, the problem with campaigns isn't TOO MUCH money, but a LACK of funds. All we need to do is make sure that decent arguments always have a good chance to get funded. And I really don't think we are too far away from that, given the number of really absurd arguments that eat up millions of dollars of cash.
 
80biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 00:23
First of all, Madman, I am appalled you so willfully ignored an edict by Guru. ;)

I don't think the current campaign finance bill addresses this, but:

Your philosophy in #79 is all well and good, but what happens when the "good argument" is not relevant, interesting, flattering or if it is even actively hostile to most anyone with money? Who will fund the "speech" then? The political speech of the impoverished is just converted to that annoying hiss you hear when the diamond scuttles along the groove of the vinyl without any amplification. And some then have the nerve to complain that the poor are too apathetic to vote for politicians and laws that don’t address their unheard concerns, wants or needs.
 
81Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 01:55
biliruben -- Three points: 1) Poor people have won bigger pork projects than other demographic group over the last 60 years. You can argue whether it has been enough or not, but you can't argue with the magnitude of the multi-trillion income re-distribution programs the federal government has enacted.

Catering to the poor is a big business of its own. Homeless lobbies abound. Consumer Advocacy groups. Etc., etc. Enron would have died and gone to heaven with the sort of representative support enjoyed by poor people.

2) Certain rich people will spend a lot of money to voice an argument beneficial to OTHERS, so that a less popular agenda of their own has a greater chance of passing. I.e., Hollywood elites will spend money to support environmental policies (you can't get more impoverished than a Spotted Owl, for example), welfare programs, etc., etc. Obviously, not all rich people would advocate policies designed to help poor people. But all you need are a few, and we're a diverse enough nation that this is almost guaranteed.

3) See post 76.
______________________

Give me an example of a pro-poor argument that has NOT been funded / supported by a major political party for financial instead of philosophical reasons?
 
82biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 02:41
Any example I would come up with, I would cry "money!", and you would cry "philosophy!", Madman. Of course politicians aren't so stupid as to allow their true motives to shine.

OK, I'll bite anyway. 3 off the top of my head:
-Universal Healthcare (no, not the Clinton plan - a truly nationalized system)
-Legalization of drugs
-Equality of educational funding nationally

Financial supporters and the pool of people that by and large make up the 2 major parties (and hence the parties themselves) have a strong financial interest in keeping these topics out of serious, free and open debate, ala DJ Tommy J in post #76.
 
83Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 03:02
Universal Healthcare -- Under the Clinton plan, a number of companies stood to profit greatly (IIRC, HMO's were massively in favor, while other insurers were against?? Been awhile, but I remember two well-funded sides to the Clinton debate). Same thing would undoubtedly be true under a truly nationalized system, since you would now be increasing government procurements by 12-15%. That's a pie that a lot of companies would die for.

Legalization of Drugs -- This helps poor people???? Not going there... Many pharmaceutical companies would stand to benefit from now-legalized medicinal marijuana pills or joints. I saw a news story actually talking about how one pharmaceutical firm is heavily lobbying for partial legalization of Marijuana for exactly that reason. Any legalization plan means that someone (likely regulated out the wazoo) has to make the stuff, transport the stuff, and sell the stuff. Each one of those stages means big, big bucks to various potential investors/firms. The fact that any such plan is likely going to be regulated only heightens the bidding war that would likely result if such a plan were ever to gain enough popular support to be debatable.

Equality of Educational Funding Nationally -- NEA supports this sort of thing, I would imagine, so you've already got big bucks here. Anything that provides more money to education has a ton of lobbyist money following it. Even a simple levelling of the playing field reduces employment risk, and increases employee comfort level.

Honestly, I don't think you can come up with an issue for "poor" people only. The reason is that anything that gives money or services to the poor, in turn, creates profitable opportunities to sellers of products the poor would buy with the money or to providers of those services that the government would regulate.

The only exception would be an entirely socialistic state, top to bottom. Even then, civil service unions would love that sort of thing, just like they loved the federalization of airport security officers.
 
84Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 03:06
Oops. That 12-15% increase in government procurements is absurdly low. They'd be nationalizing 15% of the entire economy. The subsequent increase in government contracts to private suppliers of medical equipment, etc., would be astronomical.

Interestingly, even if there wouldn't be a net increase in the size of sales of suppliers of medical equipment, you'd still have a lot of firms lobbying for candidates who supported nationalization. Why? If your company can buy off enough Congressmen who support nationalization, you'd become an instant billionaire.
 
85Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 03:16
One last clarification -- as you noted, I think there are philosophical reasons those different proposals have not been considered.

$$$$ doesn't usually create issues. As I stated previously, you have to present something that at least resembles a winning argument first. No one would fund a losing argument, thus you'll see no one funding nationalized health care at the moment. (you also won't see anyone funding any opposition to the same, thus money and CFR is irrelevant to the status quo at the moment)
 
86biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 03:18
As we saw in even Hillary's emasculated system which retained insurance companies, the money the insurers were willing to spend to avoid elimination as the outrageously profitable middle-man paled in comparison to any money anyone was/would be willing to put up to maybe get part of a some speculative procurement dollars. Insurers would be fighting for their very survival! They would be willing to spend billions, not just the 10s of millions they spent when their powers were threatened to be curtailed. No contest.

Drugs - This is certainly an issue of poverty. Not just because of the feelings of hopelessness caused by poverty often leads to drug use, but also because the poorer neigborhoods are most adversely affected by crime associated with the illegal drug trade. It's just a weed, for heaven's sake. Their are almost no costs involved and therefore no profit margins to be maintained. Anyone can grow it in their back yard. The billions spent on interdiction and policing, on the other hand, are very real.

I don't know much about the NEA, but I do know that I haven't heard this debate at all. Never. This, even though the neighborhoods with the biggest problems and the neediest kids continue to get the shaft, where the rich suburbs have the best schools. Local funding of school districts perpetuates poverty. I realize there is some federal money out there, but not nearly enough.
 
87steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 07:59
When 10% of the taxpayers have 90% of the vote, who has the advantage? The government knows it can only go so far. Somebody pays for everything. Nothing is free. And it is ALL paid for by INDIVIDUALS. Corporations pay no tax, even when they do. They are just a middle man. Corporations fight over being such a big middle man that they cannot sell their products, that they cannot stay in business.

Money follows philosophies. If not, environmental wacos would be donating billions of dollars to republicans and after owning the republicans they would force the closure of all corporations that don't grow trees. :)

If the rich controlled the country, 10% would not pay 90% of the federal taxes.

No one could get elected on those ideas no matter how much money they had. And even if they did, they are only one vote among a group of other elected officials.

-------------
Legalize drugs and crime will drop? NO WAY. People deal in drugs because they think it's an easy way to make money. They will just do something else illegal. They will move to different crime. Different drugs. CRIME WILL NOT GO AWAY.

That was one of the arguments used when alcohol was legalized again.

What does weed cost on the street? x10 if legal. Politicians will give it special taxes the same way they do cigarettes, beer, wine and liquor (and at every level of government). Even if legal, there would be laws limiting private growth (like making own beer and wine). Tax stamps required, etc.

--------------
Medical - gets down to how much are we willing to pay to keep everyone alive for as long as we can. No answer. And nothing is free. Should be a minimum coverage up to adult (and prenatal) and maybe past that if you finished HS or equivalent (reponsibility).

------------
Equality of education funding nationally. I don't know if it's equal now. I think more federal money goes to lower income districts now. You want to 'penalize' people that are willing to locally spend more of their own money on education (isn't that freedom of choice) that you already tax at a higher federal and state rate. If it's equally funded by federal government, I'll just cancel all local taxes for education. Why should you penalize a district that wants to raise taxes for bigger schools, higher pay, etc? Money does not solve all education problems. Takes some individual responsibility.

How about mandatory laws? Want it fixed?

__you cannot advance in school if you cannot read within one grade level of grade advancing to. Why do kids advance now when they cannot add, cannot read at 4th grade level? Pressure from parents.

__if you drop out of school, you lose all future federal welfare and unemployment benefits unless you obtain a GED. Or,

__you have to stay in school until you are able to be a productive member of society. I don't think someone needs to be paid a living wage if they cannot figure out change for my $10 bill. Cannot figure out that 2 for $5 is cheaper than $2.99 each (happened in Burger King other day). Or,

__we could go to a federalized school system. Take all children from parents and send them to federal boarding schools. That would be 'equal'. Or just take those that are falling behind. Lots of ways to make it 'equal'.

But none of that would be 'fair'.

You should be able to quit school if you want. You should not have to learn if you choose not to. Even in 'bad' or 'poor' schools, why do some children learn?. You should be able to try and make big bucks with no education (and have no responsibility if you fail). Parents should not have to be responsible for their children. Those children that cannot read should be allowed to have as many children as they want, and should not be responsible for helping them get a good education. And the government should be responsible for everyone. They have unlimited funds. Throw dollars here, throw dollars there, that will fix it. Why not, it's someone elses money. It's fun making yourself 'feel good' spending someone elses money.

-----------------

But if all the democrats what to make those 'major' issues, I'm all for it.

I'm sure DEM's will stick to big business is bad, we want social security 'reform' that ensures increases in benefits at no cost and use CFR as an issue. I don't think they want CFR passed, or if it is, they know it will be challanged in court and it won't go away anyway.

Only people that really want CFR passed are NYT, CBS, NBC and ABC, and people who really philosophically think campaign money drives government. It does in a way, but that is good.

Government regulations and laws control the people. That is why money is used to speak out against or for regulations that control you. If the government did not have to regulate everything, there would be no need for the people to speak with money.
 
88Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 12:35
biliruben Regarding your counter-point to issue 3, you are getting mixed up. As I said before whether or not you have heard of an argument has nothing to do with $$$$. First you get an argument, then the money follows.

Regarding your counter example to drugs -- no one has lobbied on behalf of the billions spent on drug interdiction. Virtually all of that goes to labor costs (i.e., lower middle class families). They are not united and spending $$$$ to keep drugs illegal. However, we ARE seeing an increase in spending on your side!

Regarding Hillary's system, I think you are recalling a very specific set of ads -- the health insurer's lobby. There was plenty of money to be had on the other side, too. They just totally botched the campaign.
__________________________

Another counter-example to your position that impoverished people cannot be sufficiently defended:

Who has less money than fetuses? There are two solid arguments, one on each side of this debate. There are two well-funded, well-oiled financial machines. One trying to takes rights away from people with no wealth, one trying to give rights to people with no wealth.

As I said before -- come up with a decent argument, and you can find big bucks to support it.
 
89Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 25012244
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 12:45
Nonsense.

This is not about fiancing good arguments (which, according to you, is a self-starting mechanism). This is about good arguments getting drowned in bad arguments with money.

What?? I have to come up with a series of good arguments so that you can point out that they had the money but botched the job? Nice try.

The system is broke. Claiming that if an idea is good enough the money will magically appear disregards the self-interested way we use money here in the US.

pd
 
90biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 12:47
Nice rant, Steve. Unfortunately you either didn't read what I said, or read much more than I said.

Dope costs about $300-$400 an ounce on the street. An ounce. For a weed that is essentially free. Even if the government taxed it at 1000%, it wouldn't cost a tenth of what it costs now. Go back and re-read the drug legalization thread for mine and others very good opinions on the subject. Yes, crime would drop. Significantly.

Healthcare - Right now, we have decided paying two middlemen (HMOs and Insurers) is the way to decrease costs. Just building a huge staff of managing paper-pushers which does little or is negative for the patient, with little government oversight. And we are curious why our costs are rising. Health care is not some product that people can just choose not to have. People get it sooner or later, and when they get it later, it is much more expensive, the person often has ceased to be a productive member of society through some debilitation illness, and it is on the nation's (those of us who by insurances') tab. It is not a market like the computer industry, where the law of supply and demand hold. The demand is 100%. Everyone needs and will get healthcare, just a matter of how and when. Make it a right.

Education - I said nothing about equal education, I said equitable funding of education. Education is a fundemental tool to harness a person's potential. If you believe in equality of opportunity in this country (and from what I have heard from you, you do), you have to believe we should be providing the best tools possible in a way that does not inherently favor a kiddie who just happens to have been born to someone with cash. It just widens the gap between the rich and the poor and makes it that much harder for that poor kid to overcome his disadvantage that he was born into.

The democrats are just as bad as the republicans on these issues. That was my point. There is no voice for the poor.
 
91Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 12:54
billi - you're paying way too much. (per ounce) :)
 
92Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 25012244
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 12:57
haha mbj!

:)
 
93Seattle Zen
      ID: 411302615
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:11
MyBoyJack:

Hey, he gets high quality, indoor grown, BC or Seattle stony green, not any Appalachian outdoor seedy and twigs schwag. $300 is a mortgage payment in Kentucky, it seems like a lot, but not for a Seattlite ;)
 
94Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:15
PD 89 Way to take on Thomas Jefferson! Stick it to that idiot! Wu-hoo!

"Good arguments getting drowned out by bad money, eh?"

Yet you cannot provide a single example of that.

Why? Because we all disagree on what is a "good" argument and what is a "bad" argument. Hmmm. Seems like that is the essence of a successfully run, free and open democracy. Our diversity is our strength. Money will flow to both sides.

We can all agree that good argument cannot be drowned out by bad money in some circumstances. If Newt Gingrich moved to Massachusetts and was given an unlimited supply of funds by the government, while ANY democratic nominee was limited to collecting $100 per person... Who would win????

Thus, your position is that somehow, somewhere a line is crossed where this suddenly becomes a problem. Furthermore, and more troubling, your solution to the fact that at some point your argument has a chance to be correct, you're willing to tell everyone to shut up and not have their opinions heard. And since people won't pay enough attention to your desire to shut up, you want the government to tell the candidates to shut up for you. That sounds like freedom.
 
95biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:15
MBJ- You're smokin' shwag. ;)
 
96Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 25012244
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:19
No that's not the solution I'm proposing Madman. Although your take on Jefferson being on your side of this argument is curious given his desire that ideas, not cash, be the currency in the political marketplace.

pd
 
97Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:24
Why are we paying any attention to what Shay, Meehan, McCain and Feingold are proposing, anyway? These bastards simply drowned out the good arguments of their opponents with bad cash.

_____________________________
PD -- yeah, I remember Thomas Jefferson going ballistic when he found out that Common Sense was being published and distributed nation-wide, drowning out the opposition's good arguments simply by spending more cash.

And The Federalist Papers. What a crock. More money was spent advertising the pro-Constitution position than the anti-Constitution position. Thomas Jefferson wrote "because our position has been won by the expenditures of tainted monies, and not properly fought on the battlefield of ideas, I cannot and will not support this flawed government."
 
98biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:26
Madman - regarding healthcare. The message regarding nationalization of healthcare never got off the blocks. It wasn't funded because the insurance industry was percieved as too formidable (read: rich) to take on directly. Hillary's plan was a huge compromise due to that reality.
 
99Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:27
I'm LOL at schwag.
 
100Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:27
While I haven't read through the majority of this thread and thus have not benefitted from the lesson on CFR that certainly exists here and therefore am reluctant to post my musings on how the price of decriminalized marijuanna ties in with this topic, I will say that if the plant is truly decriminalized (meaning that anyone who wants to can grow it and obtain a permit to sell it for consumption purposes), there is no way that anything but a drastic price cut to the consumer can take place.

However, biliruben I'm not sure where you live, but unless it's a particularly difficult area or you're scoring some really rare quality, MBJ #91 is right.
 
101Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 13:32
And BTW, SZ, $300 is defintely NOT a mortgage payment in Kentucky - what rain-soaked hole do you live in?.....we just barter here - about 1.5 ounces is average...;0)
 
102Seattle Zen
      ID: 411302615
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 14:07
I'm am laughing outloud at work at Madman. He accuses PD of an argument that is devoid of any intellectual substance in post 77, then trys to top him by making the worst arguments I've heard in ages in posts 79,81,83,84,85,& 87.

79: absurdity of having an external entity impose an artificial cap

I guess the "natural cap" of the rich people having all of the money, therefore only their interests are worthy of being aired is not absurd?

81: Poor people have won bigger pork projects than other demographic group over the last 60 years. Homeless lobbies abound LMAO! Wasn't Ike's quote, "Beware of the Homeless/Poor complex"? Why, yes, it's the annual Congressional Stampede where every Representative lines up to get that Congressional pork homeless shelter put in their district! Who needs the B-2 bomber contract when you can get a ONE THOUSAND BED men's drop in clinic?!

83: Many pharmaceutical companies would stand to benefit from now-legalized medicinal marijuana pills or joints. Any legalization plan means that someone (likely regulated out the wazoo) has to make the stuff, transport the stuff, and sell the stuff

Ever thought that the people who are growing the stuff NOW might continue to do so? Let me clue you in on something, if you want to make a killing when pot is legalized, buy indoor lamp manufacturing futures. Suddenly everyone is a gardner. If you think that pharm companies would profit from legal pot, you are crazy.

84: Interestingly, even if there wouldn't be a net increase in the size of sales of suppliers of medical equipment, you'd still have a lot of firms lobbying for candidates who supported nationalization. Why? If your company can buy off enough Congressmen who support nationalization, you'd become an instant billionaire.

Jesus, Madman, don't you rememner what this thread is about? NO MORE CONTRIBUTIONS TO CONGRESSMEN! So do you mean out-and-out bribery?

85: $$$$ doesn't usually create issues.

What? Perhaps you have heard of taxes. Or corporate welfare. Companies like Microsoft and Boeing get tens of millions of dollars from the US Government to advertise their products abroad. Who is going to fund the argument against that? A foreign competitor? Wait, that's not legal.

Enron and many others funnel all of their corporate profits through off shore shell corporations and end up paying no tax. Who is going to fund the argument against that? Enron and others save BILLIONS of dollars and will pay Congress accordingly in order to maintain this arangement. The "winning argument" is: American corporations should not be able to avoid taxation by funneling their profits off shore. Who is going to fund that with as much $$$$ as Enron et.al.?

But the coup de grace is post 88:
no one has lobbied on behalf of the billions spent on drug interdiction.

LMAO. Where do we start? How about every police and sheriff department in the US? How about the pharmaceutical companies who profit enormously from the abuse of their products which are readily available on the street. They DO NOT want marijuana legalized, it would destroy a good portion of their profits.

You have not read very much about this nation's drug policy and it shows. That's alright, most people have only a rudimentary understanding of the War on Drugs.

Let me add a little to Perm Dude's post This is about good arguments getting drowned in bad arguments with money. This is really about rightous arguments being crushed by a system that keeps money and power in the hands of those who have it now.
 
103Seattle Zen
      ID: 411302615
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 14:14
MITH

LOL, difficult to score bud in Seattle! Marijuana capital of the USA!
 
104Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 25012244
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 15:00
Madman, more nonsense, old friend. You continue to confuse "cash" with "speech." Jefferson was pro-speech and opposed efforts to squelch speech (which would include efforts to out-shout your opponent).

Money does indeed make issues (look at Enron). And money makes issues "matter" to people who vote.

pd
 
105Baldwin
      ID: 310261322
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 21:34
the total of [Enron's] contributions to candidates was: 0. Corporate contributions to federal candidates have been illegal since 1907.

"The Washington Post, which thinks the McCain-Feingold reform bill is necessary to make America a land fit for heroes, is scandalized by this fact: “Of the 248 members who sit on committees that plan to hold hearings on the scandal, an extraordinary 212 received money from Andersen or Enron.”

"But if McCain-Feingold had become law when first proposed seven years ago, it would have had no bearing on any contribution from Enron’s executives or its PAC to any legislator. All those contributions were “hard” dollars—to particular candidates. McCain-Feingold regulates only “soft” dollars, which cannot go to candidates. Such dollars go to parties, which can use them only for “party-building”—voter registration, get-out-the-vote drives, issue advertising—and not for advocating the election of particular candidates."

"However, if the version of McCain-Feingold that passed the Senate last spring becomes law, it will change what corporate executives can give to candidates: they will be able to give more. The bill doubles the amount individuals can give to candidates, from $1,000 to $2,000."

"It would be nice if no member could vote to restrict political giving and spending unless the member could refute this point made by the Supreme Court: To say that a person’s First Amendment right to unlimited political expression is not abridged by limits on the money necessary for political communication is like saying a person’s right to travel would not be abridged by a law restricting the amount a person can spend on gasoline or plane tickets."


Source
 
106Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 22:37
SZ 102: your response to my 81: FACT: Trillions have been spent in the name of poor people over the past few decades. There was something called the "War on Poverty". Wonder how in the world that happened / is happening. Neither you nor biliruben can seem to explain it.

83: Many pro-legalization companies currently give campaign contributions to Congressmen. When bills and such garner more support, more money will follow. I was specifically thinking of companies like UNIMED, Arizana Company Medical, as well as a more famous case of this that I saw on the news just a couple of weeks ago. I guess I'm not the only crazy one who thinks pharmaceuticals lobbying the FDA regarding pot and medical marijuana can be profitable.

Although the point is larger than marijuana. Heroin producers, for example, would make a killing in the regulated environment likely to follow legalization of drugs.

84: Let me see. How can I refute this gem of logic. Jesus, Madman, don't you rememner what this thread is about? NO MORE CONTRIBUTIONS TO CONGRESSMEN! So do you mean out-and-out bribery? Hmmm. Let me see. I come up with an example where companies would have a financial stake in promoting an issue that biliruben claims aids poor people. Your counter-argument is that we shouldn't do this. Hmmm. Good one. So, to get this straight, when I give you an example where poor people can be helped, you want to stop that by introducing what this thread is about -- CFR. Perhaps that's the first honest thing in this thread from defenders of CFR -- they're doing it to screw over the poor, and the underprivileged.

85: Dozens of organization have, will and do fund arguments against that sort of thing. Not sure what you are trying to say here. Ever heard of consumer advocacy groups? You don't remember ousted companies berating the Clintons for giving profitable deals to their rivals rather than themselves? (Ron Brown fiasco stuff). You don't remember Global Crossing getting reamed because government gave them favors over their competition? Geez. Join the real world, please.

I haven't heard a police force lobby in favor of drug interdiction policies. I've heard policy recommendations, yes. You'd expect that from a freaking LAW enforcement agency. If law enforcement isn't advocating enforcement of the law, we've got serious issues. And that's about as far as I've heard it go . . . on the order of "please stop the drugs over there because we're having trouble enforcing the law over here." That's not political lobbying. That's called doing your job.

But if a public police department is financing political ads or donating money to political candidates to support their stance on this issue, that's another matter entirely, and then we've got a problem. But as I said, I've never seen that.

Just like I've never seen any pharmaceutical money launching an ad campaign "Vote against drug interdiction policies!" Geez. I can't imagine any profits legal drug companies have at stake in such a debate at the current time.

Regarding my knowledge of the War on Drugs, I'd put my knowledge up against 99% of people. I've read extensively about the history of drug laws and drug wars, along with a smattering of medical journal articles. Somehow, I was aware of campaign contributions made by pro-legalization companies that you weren't. Perhaps I am ignorant. But the best way to illustrate that is to present a fact or two. Stating that as your "coup de grace" seems to indicate that the best you can do is attack my knoweldge base rather than my assertions.
____________________________
PD 104 You continue to stick to this speech/money argument. And now you've gone one step further -- that spending cash somehow "squelches" another person's argument. I see no evidence that having one person spend $15,000 on one commercial spot "squelches" the ability of another candidate to likewise spend $15,000. The vast, vast majority of advertising dollars are not spent on political campaigns. Thus, we are far, far away from any situation in which one additional 30-second ad for one candidate in any way means one fewer ad for another.

With that argument extension "squelched" (pun intended), it is left to your distinction between speech and money.

To this, I notice that you have not failed to argue against my observation that Thomas Jefferson had no qualms about supporting entities that had benefitted from excessive funding relative to the funding levels of the counter-arguments (i.e., funding in support of the Declaration almost assuredly exceeded funding against it; even more dramatically was the funding disparity in the debate surrounding the adoption of the entire Constitution.) There is no evidence that Thomas Jefferson saw the excessive spending engaged in pro-Constitution cases as in any way compromising the integrity of the ultimate decision to pass the Constitution itself. In fact, I would imagine that anyone at the time saw the cause and effect totally in reverse -- precisely because the argument for the Constitution had great support in spirit, the result was a great support in finances.

More strangely, you argue that when Thomas Jefferson said that truth will win out in "free debate" you are arguing that he defined "free debate" as a debate in which the relative costs to the sides are roughly equal. I've never read such an interpretation from him at all. Rather, when he suggested a debate needed to be "free", he almost surely meant the manner of debate surrounding things like the passage of the Constitution itself. And, as I noted, under your definitions, these suffered from great disparities in financial support.

More to the point, have you ever seriously considered why we have freedom of the press as well as freedom of speech? Would you agree that you cannot truly have free speech if you do not have a free press?

If you so agree, then the argument against the distinction between money and speech is almost wholly made; that is to say that if the press can print whatever they want, surely they can do so at the behest of an individual who will pay them to do so (assuming that the press so chooses).

Modern publication takes many forms -- internet, TV, newspapers, etc. Anyone can quicly and easily become a member of "the press". You would on the one hand claim that you are preserving our freedom to post in these media as we choose, but on the other hand you will deny us the right to purchase the resources to make such publication possible. Such a narrow interpretation of our rights will leave us without any meaningful rights at all.

I cannot see how such a limiting act by a government can ever be good; no one has successfully argued why such an attempt would be effective; and, ironically, there is no evidence that it is needed.

What a waste; throwing away a perfectly fine freedom in order to decrease the accountability of our Representatives.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not being melodramatic here. Elections will continue on, and I don't think the Guru will be arrested for hosting this forum. It doesn't personally affect me (yet). But anytime I see our freedoms thrown away chasing after fool's gold, expect me to fight the fight as best I can.
 
107Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 12041621
      Tue, Feb 05, 2002, 23:32
Very quickly:

More strangely, you argue that when Thomas Jefferson said that truth will win out in "free debate" you are arguing that he defined "free debate" as a debate in which the relative costs to the sides are roughly equal.

I did no such thing, and given the relatively short posts of mine compared to yours this should be easy to determine. Jefferson defined "free debate" as debate unencumbered. He most certainly did not take your point of free debate as "arguments equally able to raise cash to buy media time." (to be fair, this is my characterization). Jefferson's points about free debate was that the marketplace of ideas should determine the worthiness of proposals. You've taken an ironic spin on the word "marketplace" to have Jefferson believe in the value of ideas as a revenue stream generator.

Freedom of the press vs freedom of speech: All the freedoms work in tandem. Yes, press freedom would not occur without speech freedom but don't confuse their purposes. Freedom of the press is given to hold government accountable for its actions, within certain conditions. Freedom of speech is given to allow all to air their ideas, within certain conditions.

Melodrama Yes, you are being melodramatic. Probably because you believe me to hold certain beliefs I do not, and in taking us down those paths I am not on you find darkness. That's 'cause no one is on those paths.

In a thread of ironies, here's another: You're defending a current system of campaign finance which clearly doesn't work in the very ways you don't want it to work. You believe that I (and some others, though not all reformers) are interested in restricting all ways in which money is spent in the political process (which isn't true).

Those who are elected to make the decisions for us spend far too much time raising money than actually legislating or listening to issues of importance to their constituents. Why should I have to buy a $50 chicken breast plate to be heard? Somehow we need to free politicians from spending so much time listening to people who have bought time to be with them.

Remove from the equation the ability of people to purchase access to representatives (those people will certainly get access anyway). Eliminate from political races direct contributions, but reduce current restrictions on soft-money contributions. Give to politicians running certain set media and publicity material (such as on-air debates, media TV and radio air time, and limited franking priviledges), with geographical cost adjustments.

In short: Free people to use their own money on whatever issues they want except direct political payments to the candidates.

Jeez, I wanted to make this short.

pd
 
108Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 00:13
Good response, that warrants yet another response:

Don't forget that Jefferson argued that even a governmental plan that took money from people who agreed with the recipient's philosophies and would have otherwise donated an unacceptable intrusion on liberty. I think a policy of enforced public financing (in large or small part) of campaigns easily qualifies under this umbrella.

And he spared no quarter when discussing the tyrannical behavior of a government that forced parties to give money to parties or organizations with whom they disagreed. Yet another infringement on freedom on which we have been more than happy to intrude in this debate.
________________________
General points/counter-points:
a) I actually agree that representatives spend a lot of time raising funds. From what I've seen from Representatives in the remainder of their time, I'm not so sure this is a bad thing . . .

But I would be in favor of reforms that accomplished this goal. Shays-Meehan does nothing of the sort, however.

Furthermore, the obvious solution to this problem is to repeal past CFR bills that created the mess of PACs and contribution limits that we have now.

b) Given your opposition to soft-money limits, are you in favor or opposed to this bill? Seems like a mixed bag from your perspective.

c) I really do NOT like the full donation of campaign funds based upon geographical perspective. Currently, if a candidate with good arguments gets in financial trouble, they can simply recruit more money. Under your scenario, the elements of game-playing -- waiting until your candidate cannot respond because of financial reasons -- would increase. Furthermore, if an issue of great importance suddenly arises late in a campaign, your method gives candidates no flexibility to explain potentially complex positions. At least with free access to contributions from anyone involved, they would have the chance to raise emergency cash and make their positions heard. It's much better to have millions of people decide when they've heard enough rather than some government bureaucrat with a calculator making decisions for limits on topics and issues he has never heard of.

Not to mention the Jeffersonian in me which leads me to give up even minor freedoms only when there has been a clearly delineated need to do so.
 
109steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 00:24
I'll respond to PD 104 before reading 106-108. I think YOU are confusing the fact that limiting money does limits speech. We can go back to other CFR thread. But I think Baldwins 105 may cover part of Supreme Court ruling I posted in that thread.
 
110steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 00:35
Heck, this is 'the' thread. I'm searching for another one. Don't know why I thought this was new??????????

Back to the top.
 
111Baldwin
      ID: 310261322
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 00:46
That Supreme Court analogy really does nail it down once and for all time doesn't it Steve. 8]
 
112steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 01:09
No more to say.

1-56 covered it all.

Want CFR, need to change 1st ammendment. As Sen Hollings proposes every year.

SEN MCCONNEL - the only way to really get at the core of this problem if senators believe that the influence of money in politics is so pernicious is to change the First Amendment. You have to go right to the core of the problem. . . . . . Senator Fritz Hollings, will offer that amendment [so that the federal and all 50 state governments can have the unfettered latitude to regulate, restrict and even prohibit any expenditures, quote, by, in support of or in opposition to a candidate for public office]. He deserves a lot of credit for understanding the nub of the problem. The nub of the problem is you can't do most of these things as long as the First Amendment remains as it is.

Heard Sen Hollings today say that he'd propose it again this year.
 
113steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 01:15
See 27 and 36 on 1st ammendment.

And then money in 39 was for media to manipulate the public.
 
114steve houpt
      ID: 16045288
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 02:11
If you get a speeding ticket in Arizona you donate to their state campaign fund.

Arizona Highway Robbery

The bulk of the fund's revenue comes from two special taxes. Lobbyists for companies and trade associations have to pay a $100 annual fee to the state's Clean Elections Fund. Curiously, lobbyists for nonprofit entities such as labor unions, local governments and teachers unions are exempt. In addition, anyone who pays a civil or criminal penalty in Arizona pays a 10% surcharge that goes to the fund.

Lobbyists and scofflaws aren't exactly sympathetic characters, but they do have First Amendment rights. "Politicians have a protected right to free speech, but they don't have a constitutional right to single out discrete groups of people and make them pay for it," says Clint Bolick of the Institute for Justice, who is challenging the law as unconstitutional. Arizona's Supreme Court will decide on March 19 whether or not to hear the case.

Legislators elected with public financing are supposed to be liberated from big money interests, but for the most part, the Goldwater Institute found, they voted no differently than those elected with private contributions.
 
115Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Wed, Feb 06, 2002, 09:16
I don't know- maybe there should be some limits on campaign contributions after all.....

Philip Morris CEO Forces Senator To Dance For His Amusement
WASHINGTON, DC— Bored and in need of amusement, Philip Morris CEO Louis Camilleri commanded U.S. Sen. John Edwards (D-NC) to dance for him Monday. "Dance!" Camilleri told a whirling, diaper-clad Edwards as Buster Poindexter's "Hot Hot Hot" blared. "And keep the beat, if you want that $275,000 contribution to your reelection campaign." Later this week, Edwards is slated to don a cowgirl costume and twirl sparklers to Phil Collins' "Sussudio" for General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner
 
116steve houpt
      ID: 53157131
      Thu, Feb 14, 2002, 13:55
'error' by attorneys drafting language

'Error' was fixed in language before final vote. Was it an error? Most of the day Shays and Meehan claimed it was not an error. Opponents were just misinterpreting the language. Was pretty clear they were not sure what it meant (and had not written it).

What is interresting, look who they said made the 'error'.

Lawyers from the reform group Common Cause, which had worked behind the scenes to draft the final language.

Well, there is always the Senate (not by votes, but by McConnel filibuster), or the President (said he would sign a good bill - this will be a test of his integrity and upholding the Constitution) or the Supreme Court.

-------------
I wonder how many people really understand what is in this [re]written Shays - Meehan bill. Got in late last night and they still had about 5 ammendments to go. On each vote C-Span had call ins. This has to be one of the best media desceptions ever. Callers sure were not clear. Not sure I know whats actually in this version. Shays says it 85% of original.

CFR on it's face is good.

_ I'd support full disclosure. On ads also - but if I ran an ad, would the name of my group be full disclosure - they don't like groups running ads under just the name of the group - like this ad brought to you by 'Common Cause'. But groups like NOW and NRA get donations for things other than issue ads. But I think they have a right to speak 60 days prior. As much right as the NY Times.

_ Limits on soft money.

This bill is bad. Unconstitional. Would like to have researched Ney bill closer. Listened a little when offered as substitute, it sounded better. But Shays - Meehan pushers had a coalition that was convinced that the only bill Senate would consider was one close to McCain - Feingold (theirs). The argument against it was it was a 'poison pill' that would force a conference and kill everything. Did not hear any arguments against it on it's merits.
 
117Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Thu, Feb 14, 2002, 18:25
Steve h -- the Incumbent Protection Act probably won't pass the Senate. You need 60 votes there to just bring it to the floor, so I bet Daaschle won't even let it get voted on. (sarcasm)
------------------------
Regarding your support of full disclosure, you convinced me otherwise a long time ago in this thread. Namely, disclosure laws will prevent people from participating who would otherwise participate.

Furthermore, this effect is probably worse for challengers than incumbents. A rich executive might wish to anonymously support a challenger on ideological grounds, but cannot do so if support is made public because of the position of the company he runs and the risk of offending the incumbent.
-----------------------
One question never answered by any defender of CFR: Exactly what is it that they wish to limit, and exactly how will any plan they advocate successfully limit that activity?

Because there is no well-defined objective, there is no well-defined bill. Thus, the only objective that will be achieved is the further erosion of real freedoms and democracy as we will limit our freedom of political expression and make it more difficult for our representatives to face strong and principled challengers. Thus, the famous Incumbent Protection Act of 2002, which builds upon the successful Incumbent Protection Act of 1971. Of course, incumbents refer to these bills more lovingly as "Campaign Finance Reform".
 
118Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Feb 14, 2002, 20:43
Another good reason it's called the McCain-Feingold Bill...

A curious provision in McCain-Feingold exempts campaign contributions from Indian tribes. As noted in the Wall Street Journal:"Indian tribes would be exempt from the contribution and issue-advocacy bans that apply to other groups. Many tribes are notorious for showering incumbents with contributions in return for loose federal oversight of their efforts to expand gambling."

How did such an exemption find its way into McCain-Feingold? Maybe it's because the biggest recipient of tribal campaign contributions is none other than John McCain:

"McCain, the principal backer of campaign-finance reform, is also a loyal backer of Indian political causes. As a result, McCain is the number-one recipient of the political donations provided to candidates by the nation's 550 Indian tribes. In fact, McCain receives twice the amount given to the second-highest recipient."


fox--->henhouse

And they wonder why Republicans don't trust him.
 
119James K Polk
      ID: 4455731
      Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 15:16
Just an update to Baldwin 75:

According to a couple analyses I just finished reading off the wire, Dems raised $74.1 million in soft money last year, GOP raised $102.9 million.

Although the soft-money limits would hurt Republicans more, the increased emphasis on "hard money" would help them much more than Dems. Last year GOP raised $132.1 million from individual donors, Dems raised $59.7 million. Republicans also attracted about 200,000 new donors last year, while number of Dem donors remained the same.
 
120Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 16:14
So the Dem catchup before that must have simply been due to Dems holding the presidency I am guessing.
 
121Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 17:01
This was brought to my attention via one of my favorite sites, Instapundit. It appeared first in the National Journal magazine.

By Jonathan Rauch © National Journal Group Inc.
Friday, Feb. 15, 2002

Enron proposed to rent four days of my time, and I was also expected to put work into presentations. The [$50,000] payment for that time and effort, on a per day basis, was if anything somewhat lower than the payment I was getting for other business presentations. I certainly wasn't getting something for nothing.-- Economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman.

"Mr. Krugman? Your editor at The Times is on the line. Want to take it?"

"Sure, thanks, Peggy. Hello, Phil?"

An imaginary (we hope) dialogue in which a New York Times columnist stands up for his paper's principles. [only Krugman is non-italics - B]

"Paul, hi. Just checking in about tomorrow's column. You have a topic?"

"Not sure yet. I thought probably I'd do something on how the Enron scandal proves, yet again, that George W. Bush and his Texas cronies and all their shady friends in the boardrooms of corporate America are out to line their pockets by screwing all the hardworking little guys out of their pensions and livelihoods."

"Sounds good, Paul. Any other possibilities?"

"Maybe something on the Bush budget. How this latest round of tax cuts for the rich, the very rich, the super-rich, and the ultra-rich proves, yet again, that Bush and his Texas cronies and all their shady friends in the boardrooms of corporate America are out to line their pockets by screwing all the hardworking little guys out of their hard-won wages."

"That's good, really good. Anything else? Surprise me."

"Phil, I'm thinking about weighing in on unfettered global capitalism. How it proves, yet again, that Bush and his Davos cronies and all their shady friends in the boardrooms of multinational corporations are out to line their pockets by screwing all the hardworking little guys out of a chance to get ahead."

"I like it. That all?"

"You know, Phil, I thought maybe I should write something on Social Security. How Bush's new plan, in the 2003 budget, to dip into the Social Security surplus to finance his tax cuts proves, yet again, that Bush and his Texas cronies and all their shady friends in the boardrooms of corporate America are out to line their pockets by screwing all the hardworking little guys out of their pensions."

"That's great. They're all great. Go with your gut. You're the best friend the working man in this country has got."

"I know I am. Thanks... right... bye."

"Mr. Krugman? I've got a Felix Fondler for you. He says you met at the opening of Gallerie Niçoise the other night. You want it?"

"Fondler, Fondler. Oh, right. OK, put him through. Yes, this is Paul Krugman."

"Paul. Hey. I hope you remember me. Of course, I remember you! I love your columns. Just love 'em. Like I said the other night, it's not only that you're the most brilliant economist of your generation. Or that your writing -- wow, I mean, how do you make the language sing like that? But on top of everything else, you're the best friend the working man in this country has got."

"I know I am. Listen, Mr.... Fondler?"

"Felix. Please."

"Felix. I have a column to write for tomorrow, so how can I help you?"

"Sure, of course. As I think I mentioned, I'm the chief operating officer of Avaris Corp. We hedge options, option futures, and derive derivatives. Mostly in mining and chemicals, but financial instruments also. We're huge. What with Enron bust, we're the seventh-biggest company in America, even though we have only 118 employees. We are lean. Innovative. You don't find competencies more core."

"Uh-huh. And?"

"Paul -- may I call you Paul? -- we need your advice. We're playing in a brave new world here, a bold new reality. We're innovating to keep pace with today's fast-changing world. We don't understand half of what we do, and our accountants don't understand the other half. We are redrawing the road map. We need people, smart people, to tell us about the future for two days a year and then let us drop their names all over town for the other 363 days. We need you to join our Senior Economic Roundtable."

"How's the workload?"

"Intense. One weekend a year. Two hours of actual business. Then eat, golf, get massaged, you know."

"Yeah, I know."

"Your job is to take our money, do next to nothing, and not be corrupted."

"How much is the retainer?"

"$40,000."

"Felix. Felix, Felix, Felix. Can I ask you a question, Felix? How much is the median family income in America?"

"Um, sorry, Paul, I don't know."

"It's a bit over $50,000, Felix. Can I ask you another question? Would you guess that being the best friend the working man has got is the sort of thing a person can do on a shoestring? Is that what you'd guess?"

"No, Paul, not at all -- "

"Felix, taking corporations' money to do next to nothing and not be corrupted is not the sort of thing that just anyone can do, is it? It's the sort of thing that only a true friend of the working man can do, am I right?"

"I realize that, Paul, believe me."

"So you're asking me to do this for less than the average American family earns in a year? For less than Enron paid me? Which, by the way, was less than my going rate?"

"Well, it's just two days a year. Enron was four."

"Felix, I think maybe you'd better find yourself another economic visionary and tribune of the working man. Paying me to do next to nothing and not be corrupted is going to cost more than kitty litter."

"I understand, Paul. I'll see what I can do. Thanks... bye."

"Mr. Krugman? I have a reporter on the line. He says he's with the Washington Bugle."


"Oh, gee. I guess I'd better take it. Hello, this is Paul Krugman."

"Yes, Mr. Krugman? Hector Ferrit with the Bugle. I'm doing a piece on private money in American politics."

"OK, how can I help?"

"Well, about that $50,000 you agreed to take from Enron."

"Look, I've been over that a million times, OK? When I wrote about Enron, I disclosed that I was advising them, and I only actually collected $37,500 of the $50,000, and the $50,000 wasn't even up to my usual fee for doing next to nothing, so even if I were corruptible, which I'm not, they didn't pay me enough to corrupt me."

"I know, Mr. Krugman. But you're writing for a newspaper whose big theme is that money from corporations and other special interests corrupts American politics."

"Of course it does. Everyone knows that."

"And you're writing for a newspaper that insists that just disclosing the contributions isn't enough. The Times says the money itself is corrupting."

"So what's your question?"

"If disclosure is good enough for you, how come it's not good enough for politicians?"

"Because I'm not corrupt. I never changed what I wrote because of money. Money had no influence on me. Zero."

"So why would they pay you $50,000?"

"Ask them."

"Would you favor a limit on the amount that economists who write about business can take from companies? Say, $1,000 per year?"

"No, don't be silly. Remember, I'm the best friend the working man of America has got. I use my influence to counter the crony capitalism of George W. Bush and his rich pals."

"But you're rich."

"Read my columns, Mr. Ferrit. Do they seem like the work of someone who has been muzzled by corporate money or blinded to the world's inequities by his own princely income?"

"Are liberal Democrats who take millions from Enron and other corporate and special interests less corrupt than conservative Republicans who take millions from Enron and other corporate and special interests?"

"The system is corrupt. Our side is the one that's trying to change it."

"So how about changing the system -- say, with tough federal limits on corporate money going to influential writers?"

"This is going nowhere. I've got to go."

"OK, one more question. If Congress and the Supreme Court give The Times its way, there will be tight limits on the ability of companies and lobbies and citizens' groups to run ads that criticize politicians by name in the weeks before Election Day. But there will be no limits on the ability of The New York Times and other rich and powerful media corporations to criticize politicians in their newspapers. Nor will there be any limits on rich and powerful economists' ability to criticize politicians in their columns. Is that fair?"

"Goodbye, Mr. Ferrit. Peggy, am I late for my lunch?"

"You're fine, Mr. Krugman. Your limousine is already here."
 
122steve houpt
      ID: 53157131
      Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 23:43
Article that gets to the heart of it. Can never have TRUE campaign finance reform until:

"politicians have no power to offer other men's property—and their own souls—for sale in the name of the "public interest" ....

How to Achieve Real Campaign Finance Reform, By Having A Government That Can't Sell "Public Interest" Favors.
---------------

Of course we will never have this because government knows best. Just ask them. And it is probably not feasible. There will always be 'public interest' in politics. And that's what a 'small government' should do to a point. Be concernened about the 'public interest'. I think it should say as long as we have 'BIG government' determining 'public interest' in everything we do, there will never be any chance at true CFR.
---------------

It is claimed that the ultimate culprit
in this mess is money ("wealthy special-interest groups"). This claim is false. "Moneyed interests" are only a symptom of a deeper cause. The corruption is caused not by material wealth but by spiritual poverty. It is caused by a bankrupt philosophical premise: the concept of the "public interest."


--------------- Which is right?
Imagine that you are an honest, idealistic congressman just elected to office. ..... . . . .... How then do you decide what to do? If an auto-industry spokesman argues for import tariffs on cars to protect the jobs of hundreds of thousands of workers, and an auto-dealer association argues for no tariffs in order to give hundreds of thousands of buyers lower prices, which group, in this case, is the "public"? Both and neither. You realize that "the public" is not an actual entity but only a collection of individuals. So which individuals, in any given case, should get what they want and at whose expense? There is no way to tell—anyone can claim to be the public on any issue. In dismay you recognize that "the public interest" has no objective meaning. It is empty rhetoric.

---------------
More reason for smaller government, not more regulations like CFR.
 
123steve houpt
      ID: 53157131
      Sat, Feb 16, 2002, 00:03
Baldwin - forgot. Like the Paul Krugman satire (but true).

Here is a little more humorous take on how to fix CFR. But also true. Everyone that voted for it admitted that they are corrupted by money. Can't help themselves. So rather than the corrupt quiting (not their fault), the corrupt want to limit free speech.

Campaign Finance Reform … Are Washington's Political Whores Just Haggling Over The Price?

Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief efforts to trying to prove that the other is unfit to rule – and both…are right. — H.L. Mencken

A man asks a woman if she would go to bed with a stranger for one million dollars. The woman thinks about it briefly, then says ‘yes.´ When the man then asks if she´ll go to bed with him for $20, she indignantly replies, ‘Absolutely not! What do you take me for?´ The man responds, ‘Lady, we´ve already determined what you are…we´re just haggling over the price!´

That´s a very old joke…but the esteemed members of the House of Representatives who are supporting so-called ‘campaign finance reform´ legislation have put themselves in exactly the same situation as the indignant woman. ........... they now confess that they´re being bought…excuse me…unduly influenced by the huge amounts of ‘soft money.´ Like the woman in the story, the members of our Congress unwittingly reveal that they are, in fact, political whores.

--------------
But the entire debate on this issue ignores the most important point: It has focused on the power and evil of the donors—i.e., corporations, unions and wealthy individuals—while practically ignoring the simple fact that it is the recipients of the money—i.e., the politicians—who are the real problem. There can be no buyers of influence if no one will sell it! What are they doing in return for that money? As Emmett Tyrell of The American Spectator recently wrote, ‘our elected representatives admit that they cannot be trusted with the money they raise.´

Hello?! If we can't trust them to not be bought, why should we trust them for anything else? Will their judgment about legislation and policy, about taxes and government programs, about any of the things they're elected to do in our name be any less corrupted or more trustworthy? I´m open to an explanation of just why we should believe that…

--------------
Now for another whore analogy (sorry, but it fits!): Imagine a husband tells his wife that, while he truly wanted and intended to be faithful, there were just too many attractive and willing women for him to resist. But, if she would just take measures to somehow keep all those women away from him, he could then return to his status as faithful husband, and all would again be right with the world. This is, in effect, the proposition that our Congress has presented to us in the guise of ‘campaign finance reform.´ Should the wife sacrifice her dignity and humiliate herself in futile attempts to ‘shield´ this philanderer from those wanton sluts? No, she should open the door, throw his clothes and him through it, and be thankful he was arrogant (and stupid) enough to reveal the truth about himself.

And that´s exactly what we should do, too! Rather than abandon our rights to free speech—and if free speech doesn´t apply to political elections and issues, exactly what good is it?—this fall we should vote out of office every single Representative who supports the Shays-Meehan bill currently being debated in the House, and every Senator up for re-election who voted for the McCain-Feingold Act.
 
124steve houpt
      ID: 53157131
      Sat, Feb 16, 2002, 00:27
Oh well, three in a row.

McConnel vows to keep fighting

He may filibuster, he may go to court or he may do both.

McConnell came to oppose campaign finance laws when he was teaching a political science class at the University of Louisville in the 1970s. The issue became even more important to him during his successful 1984 challenge to two-term incumbent Sen. Walter Huddleston.

McConnell said he realized then that any restriction on free speech tends to favor the status quo.
 
125Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Sun, Feb 17, 2002, 02:07
Good article, steve h. Glad to see at least one of the former challengers who benefitted from the current "corrupt" system stay on course and on principle.

This bill is so comically misguided . . . maybe that is the strength of all the CFR stuff. Diverge so incredibly far from the truth so that entire debate occurs in a never-never land in which proponents can spin their arguments to their heart's content.

Truth is a sufficient antogonist to error . . . hmmm. I wrote those words of TJ's in another thread. They are pretty tough to swallow. I gotta believe the average person on the street realizes what's going on here. That's why this has always been a non-issue for us.

The problem, of course, is that they still do have the power to mess things up, and it is doubtful that in today's climate that we will be sufficient outraged over the passage of such a bill. I mean, if you're going to vote on terrorism or CFR, I think terrorism trumps.
 
126Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Feb 17, 2002, 08:52
Term limits would be faaaaaaaaar more useful in limiting corruption. Any government position in any form of government is inherently corrupting. Term limits lowers the value of any one politician to those with the grease because he would only be buying two terms worth of politician. Two terms gives politicians less time to go wrong and more incentive to act according to principle. On the flip side it would lower the skill level of the legislature. Carreer congressional staffers would increase in power. I haven't heard of anyone bribing them tho.
 
127Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sun, Feb 17, 2002, 20:26
When caught red-handed breaking laws just demand new laws.

During the 2000 presidential campaign, the Buddhist temple scandal was repeatedly invoked as a reason to support campaign finance reform. But the proposals by McCain & Feingold & Shays & Meehan would do nothing more to prevent politicians and fund-raisers from hustling cash from foreign nationals under the robes of monks and nuns in tax-exempt temples. It's already illegal. Piling on new laws while the old ones get broken with impunity is a pointless exercise in Beltway sanctimony. Campaign finance reform is a joke, and fund-raising criminals like Maria Hsia are getting the last laugh.
 
128steve houpt
      ID: 38138167
      Tue, Feb 19, 2002, 15:39
Common Cause

Common Mistake. After screwing up a provision in the campaign finance reform bill last week, the ethics cops over at Common Cause nearly broke the House gift rule, as well.

To celebrate the early Thursday morning victory, Common Cause officials handed exceedingly large red boxes of chocolate to Reps. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.) and Marty Meehan (D-Mass.) at a celebratory press conference. As he strained to lift the giant box of confections, Meehan cracked that he would probably bring it home to his wife, Ellen, because the long debate had not afforded him any time to shop.

Officials at the good government group, however, quickly realized that the chocolate would have easily surpassed the $50 limit on gifts for Members, so they took the goodies back.

"In this case it was really the thought that counts,"quipped Common Cause spokesman Seth Amgott.

 
129steve houpt
      ID: 38138167
      Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 02:27
CFR ???????

As comprehensive campaign finance reform nears its expected enactment, House Democratic lawmakers have already adopted strategies for redirecting the flow of large contributions to outside groups aligned with their party, a move they hope will help them regain control of the Chamber.

---------------

??? Anybody understand this. Does it mean parties can still get 'soft' money donations in increments of up to $20,000 as long as they redirect it to non-partisan groups.

---------------

So ENRON execs could give Republican party $20K each as long as it was redirected to a group called non-partisan. And then that non-partisan group could run 'non-partisan' ads about legislation like the NAACP did about James Byrd and hate crimes.

Makes sense to me. Will keep lawyers busy.
 
130Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 03:39
Gephardt pledged to raise the funds for outside groups last week during a private meeting with Reps. Jim Clyburn (D-S.C), Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.), Lacy Clay (D-Mo.), Earl Hilliard (D-Ala.) and Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick (D-Mich.), who were wavering in the support for the Shays-Meehan legislation.

Talk about a scum-bag. If this doesn't reveal the cynism of those fighting for CFR, nothing will.

Is it patently clear to every reasonable thinking person that what the House and Senate are trying to do is to make life hell for challengers to their seats? And to pick up extremely false "morality" points while simultaneously making sure they are only legislating the morality of others?
__________________
You have it basically right, Steve.

Dems told Gephardt that they were going to possibly walk. Gephardt says, "hey! Wait a sec. You only THINK there is a limit on soft money. Even though this bill will fracture the Democratic party (that for some reason hasn't been wise enough to nominate me for President), all of your pet causes and lobbyists will INCREASE their influence..."

Basically, McCain et. al. are trying to weaken the party structure and replace it with ideologically more narrow interest groups and run funding through those front groups instead.

Exactly how making politics more partisan is deemed to be a good thing . . . well that's a question they'll never have to answer since the media wants this to pass and wouldn't dare ask such an insolent question of these righteous politicians trying to clean up Washington!
 
131Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 09:41
More fuel to for the cynics fire: M-F and S-M exclude from contribution limits , contributions given by Native American groups and individuals.... care to guess which Arizona Senator receives more in campaign contributions from Native American groups than all other US Senators combined??? Got to keep those casinos runnning, you know.
 
132Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 411302615
      Wed, Mar 20, 2002, 18:18
It's over, guys

Senate Vote, 60-40, Caps Seven-Year Campaign Reform Debate

Steve, I'm sure you'll agree with this New York Times headline, just as you always do:

Many Benefit From Campaign Reform

Among their "winners" are State and Local party leaders, incumbents, and Dubya. Of course, the media will continue to have little to no effect on elections, as most voters make their informed decisions after speaking with their representatives during hours-long personal meetings.
 
133James K Polk
      ID: 4455731
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 16:43
Madman's column in Newsday
 
134Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 46132213
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 16:59
Funny stuff. I loved the analogy of Patrick Henry being muzzled because his attacks on King George came within 60 days of an election. Hello? Kings aren't elected. Maybe taking a few more minutes to come up with a better analogy might have made for a better argument.

While I like some parts of the piece (here is the best line): What is more fundamental to the constitutional right of free speech than the right to freely criticize the policies of our own government and, by implication, the politicians who enacted the laws we find offensive or wrongheaded? the article itself is poorly written, appeals to some unspecified experts ("political scientists have calculated"), and really doesn't advance the argument. Like a lot of conservative pieces, it seems more interested in attacking than in putting forth an attractive alternative. Too bad.

pd
 
135James K Polk
      ID: 4455731
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 17:21
Oooh, I should say that, for the record, I didn't make the "Madman" link because of anything other than the fact Madman had referred to the current version of campaign finance reform as an "incumbent protection act" -- an assessment I agree with. I did not make the reference with any consideration of the shortfalls PD pointed out. Sorry, Madbuddy, just trying to avoid an accidental misunderstanding here :)
 
136Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 17:58
JKP -- I agree with that article, so I take no offense at the association, even with so-called "inadequacies".

For example, the unspecified experts that PD is concerned about were advancing the self-evident proposition that incumbents have more hard-money that challengers. I mean, come on. Anyone who is not brain-dead knows this. The only flaw in citation, therefore, is the fact that they suggested "political scientists" have calculated it, since such a specific reference makes people like PD overlook the fact that what the article is arguing is blatantly true regardless of who "has calculated" it.

And I also disagree that an attack on the Incumbent Protection Act needs to advance an "attractive alternative". The idea of an attack of this nature is to suggest that the status quo is immeasurably better than the bill itself; by comparing the effects of the bill to the current system, it can be shown the current system is superior. Ergo, a "more attractive" alternative has been advanced. That may not meet PD's "attractive" alternative criterion; but under PD's restrictive assertion that an alternative must be attractive, it is quite possible that NO bill or system would be adequate.

Heck, it was once widely believed that Democracy itself was an ugly process. Should we change it because it is not "attractive"?
---------------------

Regarding Patrick Henry -- replace King George with your favorite colonial Tory representative (obviously pre-1776, since the Tories were generally run out of Continental government in the 1770s). Talk about a petty criticism of the more fundamental point . . .
--------------
One more point: I'm going to support any Congressional representative if and when they offer Articles of Impeachment against Bush for signing this thing. Talk about a violation of his oath of office . . .
 
137Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 46132213
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 18:03
Madman, if it's so true and so self-evident it ought to be awfully easy to back up the claims with actual experts, no?

Really, I agree with a lot of the actual meat of the argument but disagree strongly with the attacks and the poorly written style.

Campaign finance is such an important topic that I'd rather not have a hack speaking for me.

pd
 
138James K Polk
      ID: 4455731
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 18:08
BTW, my paper is running that column on an op-ed page over the weekend. I borrowed the term "incumbent protection act" for the hed, so now when you criticize journalists, Madman, by proxy you sort of are one! :)
 
139Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 22:04
Hahaha. Cool, JKP. :)

PD -- if it's so true and so self-evident it ought to be awfully easy to back up the claims with actual experts, no? I wouldn't go that far. There are lots of things that so-called experts don't touch upon that are self-evident.

Seriously, are you trying to argue that Challengers begin campaigns with more money in their war chests than incumbents??? How much intellectual study is required to illustrate such an assertion to be false? More germane to your criticism here, why cite a singular study that indicates this?

Yes, the AMOUNT of an advantage that incumbents have over challengers is debatable. That's probably why they (tactical mistake, admittedly) cited "political science" experts. But the force of the argument works for virtually any amount, assuming it is consistent and reasonably substantive. Which it clearly is if you just browse through war-chest numbers for sitting congressmen.
 
140Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 02592222
      Fri, Mar 22, 2002, 23:05
Jeez, I can't believe you're even arguing with me on this one. Are you such a contrarian that you won't even allow stylistic questions regarding those who argue against positions you are also against? And regarding the point Mr. Moore was trying to make, if you are going to back him up at least understand what he said:

Political scientists have calculated that incumbents start off every campaign with roughly a $500,000 advantage due to high name recognition and the assorted privileges and perks (such as free mailings) of holding office.

Not a word about war chests. Indeed, the size of incumbant war chests is a strong and valuable point in this whole debate, but it goes unmentioned in this essay. And him citing unnamed sources to back up an unverifiable number weakens the argument.

The only "verifiable" fact I've checked on is not all together clear either. Here's the quote in the essay: A recent study of the myriad of campaign laws at the state level by the Levy Economic (sic) Institute of Bard College discovered that limitations on campaign spending and advertising lead to higher rates of election of incumbents. Now, I've been a fan of the Levy Economics (not Economic) Institute for some time, and I believe Mr. Moore is referring to Christopher Magee's paper of last year, Campaign Contributions, Policy Decisions, and Election Outcomes: A Study of the Effects of Campaign Finance Reform which was about whether money really bought influence in elections. I do not have the paper, but the summary's last two sentences say something different than Mr. Moore's points: These contributions have a large effect on the election outcome but do not seem to affect challengers' policy stances. In contrast, campaign contributions to incumbents do not raise their chances of being reelected and seem to be given with the hope of gaining influence. Again, I do not have the paper here but my recollection (which the summary partially backs up) is that the opposite point is often found. The paper, being about something else, was probably gleened by Mr. Moore's staff to try to back up his points. I wish they'd located a more direct study, but if they had I'm not clear they would have cited it.

Indeed, the more often I read the essay the clearer Mr. Moore's point becomes: He feels it's his job to inform the voters (fair enough), and that voters would not get the information if organizations such as his are not able to fund informational campaigns within 60 days of an election (shakier ground here).

Honestly, Madman, the more you argue (more eloquently) the same points you believe Mr. Moore is making, the more I'm going to point out what a crappy piece of writing that essay is. And that's my only point about it.

pd
 
141Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 00:13
If your only point is that it is crappily written, then I'll concede that point.

BTW, Christopher Magee goes by Chris, and he's a big soccer buff. He also beat me in Smallworld baseball back in 1997, IIRC. Grrrr. Actually, it's been so long ago, I might have come back at the end; I honestly don't remember.

I can try to get a copy of the paper from him if you want; I haven't emailed him for about a year, actually, but I'm sure he'd oblige if you are really interested in getting a copy. He's a nice guy, even if he does like soccer too much. If you contact him, tell him that I told you that, and you're sure to get a response. Actually, he's a pretty darned good player. Or at least used to be when he was a bit younger and had more time to devote to it.

He's a careful and intelligent researcher. But I really don't know how much he would take his results as seriously as the author of this article takes his results. Either way, I really don't think anyone can statistically identify the effects of CFR or campaign contributions. And he and I have debated this topic a bit several years ago. Not surprising, eh?

Back to the point about war chests, my bad on reading the paper. As I said before, the proposition just appears self-evident to me, so I skimmed right on by. But the point he made is, I think, more germane than my war chest assumption. The reason is that CFR is about limiting the ability of politicians to use valuable resources and popular media to express themselves and achieve some level of name recognition. If you place restrictions on how often and how much a politician can publicize their candidacy, you are most naturally limiting their ability to achieve a level of name recognition commensurate with incumbents, who have had the luxury of many years worth of news stories to bolster their notoriety. Well, usually that's a benefit . . .
 
142Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 00:30
Check this out

Looks like I haven't read this particular paper of Magee's. The one I knew he had been working on was the Baldwin and Magee paper cited in the above work.

A relevant excerpt from the conclusion:

Some evidence is presented here that political action committee donations to
incumbent campaigns are given for an influence motive. Consistent with the conventional
wisdom, contributions received by incumbents did not raise their likelihood of winning the
election. Most campaign contributions to incumbents appear to be given to gain services
that elected officials can provide influencing the legislative agenda rather than to affect the
candidate’s policy stance. In only one of the five issues examined, national defense
spending, did campaign contributions raise the probability that incumbents running for
re-election would support the interest groups’ preferred policy positions. Contributions
flowed more readily, however, to members of committees with control over legislation
important to the interest groups.


Seems like this shouldn't be cited by Moore.

However, you'll notice that the structure of the conclusion is tied tightly to the modelling structure assumed in equations 2-4. He takes an interesting empirical approach in this paper, but ultimately, his conclusions rest on the quality of his exclusion restrictions. Without reading it carefully, I really don't believe any econometric result that is based upon such a thin estimation trick. Just a warped personal bias; most economists buy into them. It helps them to get published, if nothing else.

His paper is worthy of more careful reading; but my gut says that it falls into the typical category of economics papers that I just don't believe.

More importantly for this debate, his conclusions are not necessarily relevant outside of his modelling paradigm, and thus I would agree were totally distorted by Moore. Chris captures some interesting stuff here, so there's the potential there's something of interest, but definitely not anything I would cite in an op-ed piece.
 
143Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 02592222
      Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 00:45
I read a little of that paper when it came out last year. I'd love to get a copy if you think you can bury your pride enough to contact him again :)

I completely agree that incumbants have advantages, and am constantly galled at the abuse of franking priviledges to send out "news" which is really campaign literature. Since it's difficult to distinguish, at times, between news from a Congressman and self-congratulatory crap I sometimes will give the benefit of the doubt. But it really goes overboard at times.

I really have to look over the bill again in light of your last paragraph, though. My understanding was that there was a limitation on third party organizations (such as Mr Moore's) from injecting campaign "news" into a race within the last 60 days before an election. Maybe you are saying that the inability of a candidate to use third-party issue surrogates (as a way to save money, or to make his campaign seem bigger than it is, or whatever) is unfair to the challenger because the incumbant has the money to just buy that same opportunity with their big war chests?

This isn't a challenge to you--I'm really just trying to understand this issue better and as you noted before, I think this bill is a mixed-bag for me, and am trying to get a better feel for where this thing is going to go wrong. 'Cause we both know it's going to go wrong!

pd
 
144Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 01:16
Regarding the challenger-crippling aspects of the bill, the biggest hit is the limitation on soft money. Parties will no longer be able to target weak incumbents of the opposite stripe and pump cash into those districts.

The application of this criticism of the bill through the lense of Magee's paper is difficult to ascertain. My hunch is that there is no necessary conclusion one way or the other from his work. Why? He analyzes the contribution of PAC money to a candidate in an election cycle. The current bill increases direct contributions PAC's can make to candidates. However, it also decreases or eliminates indirect PAC contributions via parties.

Therefore, the aggregate impact of the bill on the actual money flowing to a candidate from a corporation isn't known! Some candidates will be hit, others will be advantaged (i.e., McCain).

Either way, challengers will be generally hurt, because of the limitations placed upon them to raise revenue from external (i.e., party) sources.
--------------------------------------

We all know this bill will go "wrong" . . . I actually have no idea what's going to happen. A lot of the bill is going to be struck down by the SCOTUS. There are some things that may or may not survive. All I know for sure that this is a mess to fix a situation that I don't see as broken.

I think we'd all be better off if we killed any and all restrictions, rules and/or regulations regarding fund raising -- with the exception of eliminating and/or retaining on-the-job perks used for re-election.

From my point of view, the entire issue of campaign finance reform is a misguided utopian ideal at best, and a destructive power-grab at worst. I see no evidence that our system is any better off for having passed the 1971 CFR. In my world, if regulations don't help anything, you repeal them, not make them worse. But the media has bought into this "there is a tremendous problem" paradigm. Yet there isn't one drop of evidence to indicate that there is a solvable problem out there. Note the important word: SOLVABLE. A shocking waste of resources that ultimately hurts us, the voters, since the government is mandating that fewer than our desired number of dollars are spent educating and persuading us each election cycle.

(BTW, the paper is linked above. I assume you wrote your last message before seeing my newer post).
 
145Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 01:25
I should also note that the last version of the CFR bill I saw left in it the "Gephardt" provision -- namely that third party lobbying organization will act as surrogate political parties and therefore dramatically increase the influence of these mostly radical (left and right) groups.

The idea is that the right of third party lobbyists to buy ad space within 60 days of the election is going to get shot down by the SCOTUS and everyone knows it. This means that after that provision gets shot down, there is an obvious way to pour soft-money into your campaign -- funnel it through a lobbyist group rather than a political party. This is the fact that Gephardt used to keep the House Democrats in-line to get the bill through the house. Thus, I call it the "Gephardt" provision. I don't know who wrote it originally.

I should also mention that if you do not like the two party system, then CFR might be down your alley. It is a direct attack on the party system, and breaks down the last vestiges of party loyalty. If CFR goes unchecked, I can easily foresee a day when certain organizations gain enough financial power to splinter our two-party system. If you think the debate is bad now, just wait until you get 15% of the Senate elected by the Christian Coalition, 15% of them elected by NOW, 15% by the Black Caucus, etc., etc. You think it's bad now, just wait until the radical-line elements are the candidate's PRIMARY link to funds. You know, I think I'd support all-out federal financing of campaigns before I'd support this sort of mess.

(Think it's coincidental that a bill designed to fracture the Republican party was authored by McCain???)
 
146Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 02592222
      Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 10:50
Yes, I wrote my last post before seeing the link to the paper. Very interesting--I'm in for more reading between baseball drafts, I see.

pd
 
147Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Fri, Mar 29, 2002, 13:36
from George Will today:


In such a system, money to finance debate about the composition and conduct of the government would come from the government, and in such amounts and for such uses as the government approves. There would be no restriction on political advocacy by the Times or The Washington Post, which in the last five years have editorialized, on average, once every 5.5 days for additional restrictions on political advocacy by others.

The day after Congress passed it, the Post's lead editorial celebrated the bill, which includes restrictions on political advocacy by organizations like the National Rifle Association, which has 4.2 million members. Indeed, a number of senators and members of Congress cited the NRA as an organization whose advocacy they sought to inhibit.

Below the editorial celebrating passage of the bill, the Post ran an editorial urging Virginia's governor to support a gun control measure opposed by the NRA. So the Post editorial page that day illustrated the system toward which the bill that Bush cavalierly signed moves us. It will be a system in which the media exercise an unabridged freedom of political speech while championing successive weakenings of the constitutional protection of rival voices.

 
148Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Mar 29, 2002, 14:14
Well, I would be tempted to buy into Will's post. But as we all know, when the founding fathers gave us "freedom of speech" what they really meant was "freedom from speech uttered by others than the press".

Therefore, CFR is just the realization of the ultimate expression of human freedom.
 
149Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 4443038
      Fri, Mar 29, 2002, 14:18
"Restriction is freedom" I like it. Ford would like it. I can now admit - I love Big Brother.
 
150Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 411302615
      Fri, Mar 29, 2002, 15:30
Well, I bet Orrin Hatch is steamin' mad. Looks like Mr. and Mrs. Bob Mormon can only donate $1,000 each to Orrin, no longer may they give $1,000 for each of their 11 kids.

Campaign Law Stops Donations From Kids. Supporters of the change say adults were abusing the system by contributing in children's names.
 
151Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Mar 29, 2002, 16:18
Of course, Orrin Hatch was the candidate in the last election that was trying to fund-raise from the grass-roots. Remember his $36 per person * 1 million people goal?

So, CFR takes away the rights of children to donate to candidates. First they can't vote, and now they can't even give a candidate money. Next, they'll have to report it to the FEC when they bake a cookie for their Congressman. And some people actually SAY they want kids to get involved in the political system.

It just keeps getting better.
 
152Madman
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, Mar 29, 2002, 16:21
And I'm glad someone finally figured out who was behind the Enron Campaign financing mess. It was the CHILDREN!!

As Bill Cosby would say, riiiiiiight.
 
153steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Fri, Jul 19, 2002, 23:04
Hillary, Dem shout it out at Capitol

Is reality of CFR sinking in? Oh no, this is real. I only supported it because it was PC. We could be sued?

Sen. Hillary Clinton got into a closed-door shouting match in the Capitol yesterday with the top Democratic backer of campaign finance reform, sources told the Daily News.

Clinton (D-N.Y.) faced off with Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) during a luncheon discussion of a landmark fund-raising law set to take effect Nov. 6.

When Feingold dismissed warnings that senators could face legal challenges on unpredictable grounds under the new law, Clinton exploded.

"Russ, live in the real world," a tight-faced Clinton shouted at Feingold, sources said.

"They will be all over you like a June bug," a source quoted Clinton as later saying, in a reference to Republicans and their allies.

Senators warned:

"The purpose of the lunch was to discuss implementation of the law, which they did," said Clinton communications director Karen Dunn.

A Feingold spokesman had no immediate comment.

The session began with opposing presentations by former Common Cause chief Fred Wertheimer, who backs Feingold in supporting tougher FEC rulings, and Democratic campaign lawyer Bob Bauer.

Sources said Bauer warned senators they could face criminal charges if they seek general political support from an audience that later makes soft-money contributions.

It was also suggested that political events, like former President Bill Clinton's infamous White House coffees for big donors, could theoretically be criminalized under the new law. The coffees were investigated by Congress and the Justice Department, but no charges were filed.

When Feingold protested that interpretations like that were not rational readings of his law, Clinton, who voted for Feingold's bill, hammered him.




 
154steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Fri, Jul 19, 2002, 23:13
An AP story. {Posted whole story because a few times I was redirected to AP home page)

Clinton, Feingold Argue Over Law

By FREDERIC J. FROMMER
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) — Sen. Russ Feingold said Friday that he and Sen. Hillary Clinton engaged in a heated argument over the impact a new campaign finance law will have on Senate Democrats.

``You're not living in the real world,'' Clinton argued during the closed-door meeting of about two dozen Senate Democrats on Thursday, according to Feingold, D-Wis., the party's leading proponent of the law.

Clinton spokeswoman Karen Dunn declined to comment on Feingold's description of Thursday's meeting, but noted that Clinton voted for the new campaign finance law.

``Senator Clinton has the greatest respect for Senator Feingold's leadership and advocacy on this issue,'' Dunn said.

At issue was the law's ban on soft money — large, unregulated donations to parties from corporations, unions and others. Clinton is worried the law is vague and will open Democrats to legal liability, Feingold said.

Feingold said a ``core group'' of five or six Democrats, including Clinton, D-N.Y., were trying to find ways to get around the ban. He declined to identify the others.

``It was a troubling display for a party that claims to be for trying to clean up the system,'' Feingold said.
- [Shoupt - It's troubling to Feingold that Hillary was trying to find ways around the ban - 'hillarious'. Imagine that]

Dunn noted Friday that Clinton and her GOP opponent, Rick Lazio, agreed to bar their respective parties from spending soft money on ads supporting their campaigns in 2000.

The exchange took place at a forum organized by Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., pitting Fred Wertheimer, head of Democracy 21, which supports the ban, against Robert Bauer, the lawyer for the Senate and House Democratic fund-raising committees, who has argued that soft money should still be allowed for several non-campaign purposes.

Daschle was among those at the meeting. Daschle spokesman Jay Carson called Feingold's comment about the Democratic Party ``perplexing.''

``I think Senator Daschle's and the Senate Democrats' commitment to this can be seen in the painstaking work and blood, sweat and tears that went into getting this bill passed,'' he said.

Feingold said Clinton later apologized to him on the Senate floor.

``I said it was a good show, and she said we should have sold tickets,'' said Feingold, laughing.

The new law is scheduled to take effect after this November's election. Several groups have filed lawsuits challenging its constitutionality.
 
155Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2065918
      Fri, Jul 19, 2002, 23:18
Clinton is right-Feingold is in dreamland. Good link, Source.

pd
 
156steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Wed, Sep 25, 2002, 13:01
Heck with finance reform, Daschle's wants a new new Camapign Reform act.

PROPOSED: A republican administration shall not talk in public about any policy or program that does not favor the democrats in the polls without prior permision of the democratic senate leader 90 days prior to any federal election.

If not, democrat leader will have a coronary on Senate floor. :):)

Was hilarious [was tired of watching weather reports - just happened to catch the whole thing].
 
157Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Sep 25, 2002, 13:16
Link to Daschle being foolish. Near as I can make it out, Daschle wants Bush to "make the case" against Sadaam, by not talking about it. Further, he believes that a politician telling the voters what his or her position is on the most important issue of the day is a danger to the democratic process.
 
158Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Sep 26, 2002, 20:15
"Unionize it or no homeland security for you!" - Tom the most relentless partisan of all time Daschele

And he accuses Bush of trying to make political gain out of the war on terror? Now that is "outrageous, simply outrageous."
 
159Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Sep 26, 2002, 20:17
"Unionize it or no homeland security for you!" - Tom the most relentless partisan of all time Daschle

And he accuses Bush of trying to make political gain out of the war on terror? Now that is "outrageous, simply outrageous."
 
160Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Sep 26, 2002, 20:28
For some odd reason I can't find the self-edit feature on this page. Sorry for the double post.
 
161Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Thu, Sep 26, 2002, 20:28
For some odd reason I can't find the self-edit feature on this page. Sorry for the double post.
 
162Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Sat, Sep 28, 2002, 10:34
The state of things: FEC now fees compelled to issue official rullings on whether Jay Leno can tell jokes!
 
163Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Sat, Sep 28, 2002, 20:53
Scientists Discover Huge New McCain-Feingold Black Hole
 
164Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 554192913
      Tue, Dec 03, 2002, 14:01
Some of the nation's most accomplished lawyers will face off this week in a courtroom in Washington in the first showdown over the constitutionality of the new campaign finance law.

I don't know why, but the McCain Feingold Act's constitutionality is being argued in front of a special three judge panel on Wednesday. After its ruling, the Supreme Court has agreed to hear the arguments. Speeds things up, I'd say.
 
165steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Wed, Dec 04, 2002, 01:17
McCain-Feingold, RIP. In force for less than a month, campaign finance is already dead.

John McCain, the Sisyphus of reform, is already declaring defeat: "We now find this reform law threatened by both political parties, the special interests who are regrouping, and also by the very regulatory body of the federal government charged with its interpretation."

The Senator's solution? Just roll that stone up the hill one more time by passing yet more campaign finance restrictions. "Reform is a process," Mr. McCain now says. "It is not a one-time fight."
----------------

All of this was entirely predictable; in fact it's an eerie repetition of what happened after the post-Watergate campaign reform of 1974. Business and labor PACs proliferated, as did millionaire candidates, who could spend as much of their own money as they wanted. The courts upheld some spending limits but struck down others, creating a maze of new loopholes. A main author of that reform, Fred Wertheimer, is still whispering into John McCain's ear today that if only we can pass one more . . . The poor Senator is now his personal Sancho Panza.

McCain-Feingold is itself destined to go to the Supreme Court, based on today's legal challenge to be heard by a special three-judge panel in Washington. The plaintiffs include such ideological opposites as the NRA and the AFL-CIO, the California Democratic Party and Republican Senator Mitch McConnell. They share the view that the law is an abridgment of free speech, among its other sins, as we trust the Supreme Court will agree.

But we hardly need to wait for the Justices to tell us that McCain-Feingold is folly. The bill's own supporters are already disowning it, and before the ink of President Bush's misguided signature is even dry.

 
166biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 49132614
      Fri, May 02, 2003, 17:42
Soft money ban ruled unconstitutional.

I know how we can solve this one, just ban rich people. 100% tax after your first 300,000. And 95% Capital Gains tax after your first 500,000 in profits, annually. Then folks wouldn't have so much disposible income to fritter away on political bribes and fancy fast cars that I am jealous of. ;)
 
167Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 34071820
      Fri, May 02, 2003, 19:19
Hmmm. Just noticed that I called McCain (post #2) "a stand-up buy." In this, of all threads! That's going onto the "All Star Typo" list.

pd
 
168Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Fri, May 02, 2003, 19:23
Hola' Senor Freud
 
169Madman
      Donor
      ID: 21020124
      Fri, May 02, 2003, 19:41
biliruben 166 -- we tried that! We had a 94% marginal tax rate on the rich for almost 20 years after WWII, and then 70% MTR until 1981. Banning rich people didn't seem to prevent the Kennedy's from buying the White House in 1960 under these ban-the-rich-rules, so I don't see what good such a law will do.

PD -- a stand-up buy! Yep, an all-time typo!
 
170Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 14:11
CFR advocate Chuck Schumer gets hit with Senate's biggest CF law violation fine
 
171Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 14:43
Fascinating. And I suppose Enron's support of Shumer was legal and outside of that list.

Given that the proponents of CFR claim that it is necessary to prevent politicians from becoming "bought", I guess the sad conclusion is that Chuck Shumer is one of the most "bought" politician in the Senate.
 
172Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 108231015
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 14:50
And BTW, for those struggling with the meaining of "hypocrisy" in reference to the Bill Bennet gambling "story" - this would be Hypocrisy. Don't look for an expose' in Newsweek though.
 
173Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 14:58
MBJ -- hahaha. Well, maybe his supporters just argue that he knows what sorts of CFR laws need to be on the books since he knows how people ignore them.

Of course, cynics would argue that he is just wanting more stringent CFR laws so that his opponents will be bound by them whereas he will be free to spend what he pleases -- unless the government runs an audit, of course.
 
174Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 22:05
Check out this headline before they change it - maybe the DOJ IS really trying to re-write the Constitution:

FOX NEWS: DOJ Plans to Appeal Supreme Court Ruling
 
175UGABravesDawg
      ID: 21320129
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 22:26
While I cannot read all 174 posts, I am going to throw in my bit on Campaign Finance Reform even if it doesn't fit in. This February I was so unpriviledged as to be spoken to by the (dis)Honorable Bradley Smith. He proposed that the Hatch Act and Campaign Finance Reform Acts both be repealed. He favored getting rid of all restrictions on campaign donations. Mr. Smith actually said at one point "so what if Bill Gates pays a billion dollars and buys 76 Congressmen? He would be broke, and only have a small portion of Congress." About the most idiotic statement ever, right? What if you can buy them for half a billion. So Bill Gates has his 152 Congressmen, no problem, right? Then Rupert Murdoch gets his 120 Congressmen and why don't we throw 80 in to Ted Turner. Our entire legislature would be completely controlled by a few guys. He was against any limits on advertising, slander, commercials, etc. etc. Sounds ludicrous, right? You might ask who Bradley Smith is... so I'll tell you: the Vice-President of the Federal Elections Commission.

I just read the link earlier to one of Smith's articles... believe me, his demands are terrible and propesterous, regardless of how he spins them to make them seem acceptable. I met him in person and asked him about his demands and completely flustered him, the man is dangerously out there.
 
176UGABravesDawg
      ID: 21320129
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 22:36
http://archive.salon.com/books/int/2001/03/30/smith/index.html
 
177steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 23:21
Bradley Smith makes sense. I have a link in post #31 to an excerpt from 'Unfree Speech: The Folly of Campaign Finance Reform' published at Princeton Press in 2001. Similar to the interview in Salon. You pull the 'extreme' out, but in context, it makes sense. And constitutional. It's the Schumer's that are scarey. Who's paying him to lead the filibuster of judges?
 
178UGABravesDawg
      ID: 21320129
      Mon, May 05, 2003, 23:51
Have you heard him actually speak? When you hear right out of his mouth what he says, it is frightening. He can spin what he says in interviews and such to make it seem logical, but he never seems to cover the negative effects. To take limits off campaign contributions does not give the little guy more power, it makes it so that all the politicans need is a few great wealths in order to win an election. Do they care if I contribute $2,000? No, they don't. They wouldn't depend on anyone outside a small group of people, then who do you think they're gonna give back to when they are elected? The guys that filled their pockets and will do so again when they are up for re-election.
 
179Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Tue, May 06, 2003, 10:42
Why is it so frightening that Bill Gates could buy 152 Congressmen? I am continually confused by this fear.

Worst case scenario -- he buys 152 Congressmen, and they pass a law mandating everyone to buy Microsoft Windows. Next election cycle, we have 152 new Congressmen, and we repeal the law mandating that everyone buys windows (plus, we launch private lawsuits claiming damages, DOJ is obligated to pursue anti-trust cases against Microsoft ... and if they don't, we can the President, too. Etc.)

The real question is how much does each side trust the people. One side (CFR supporters) believes people are dupes that will vote for a candidate who has 1,000 ads over another candidate who has 500. The other side (my side) believes that people can actually see through most crap for what it is -- crap. As long as a candidate has enough cash to get his message out, voters -- not money -- actually decide the results.

The more "reform" we've built, the less competitive our elections have become. Why? Because it makes it harder for quality challengers to amass that minimum amount of cash necessary to get their message out.

Worse, all the "reforms" we've built haven't changed the ability of candidates to buy elections one iota. And this CFR bill won't either.

But our elections will "look" more fair. And we have contribution caps to make the little guy feel more worthwhile. Joy, joy. Meanwhile, incumbents will never face quality challengers, will never actually face the prospect of a close election, will continue to schmooze with lobbyists and PACs and special interest groups who will control all the purse strings.

Someone -- ANYONE -- please tell me why a world in which candidates never face substantive opposition and are forced to align very tightly with radical special interest groups to provide them with 3rd party advertising -- someone PLEASE tell me why this is a better idea than a free and open system where quality challenger candidates are allowed to freely and quickly build campaign funds to advertise for themselves rather than relying on the generosity of radical 3rd party groups?
 
180Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 0059248
      Tue, May 06, 2003, 10:45
Why does it have to be one or the other?

 
181Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Tue, May 06, 2003, 10:59
PD 180 -- I didn't actually SAY it had to be one or the other, I just asked why ineffective regulation designed solely to trick people into feeling good about "level playing fields" was a better idea than a system with warts that allows the Democratic process to function.

There is an entire spectrum between, largely related to the size of contribution limits. Putting a $500,000 per person contribution cap would clearly be a minimal infringment upon a challenger's ability to raise money.

But the broader opposition between the two ideas becomes more evident when you consider lowering the caps to make them more "effective". Once the caps become "tight" enough to restrict a candidate's ability to raise money quickly and easily, you are forcing that candidate into alternative funding sources ... assuming, of course, that there is an opponent who is capable of finding alternative sources himself (and this will be less and less likely the more restrictions you place).

So, it is not an either-or, per se. But it is a "the more of one you have, the less of the other".
 
182Myboyjack
      Leader
      ID: 14826271
      Wed, May 14, 2003, 21:14
Refer to post 170-172:

Chuck Schumer must be going for the Hypocrit's Pentatholon or something:

Gun Controller Schumer Has Armed Bodyguard
 
183Baldwin
      ID: 4261155
      Sat, May 17, 2003, 01:46
David Tell on campaign finance reform:

It's been an epic, "Bleak House"-worthy court case: 77 different plaintiffs suing 17 named defendants, thousands of pages of pleadings and motions and briefs, and well more than 100,000 pages of additional expert-witness reports, deposition transcripts, and fact exhibits. On May 2, the hybrid judicial panel specially designated by Congress to hear the litigation's initial arguments--three judges, one from the D.C. Circuit Court and two from that circuit's district court--issued its much-delayed ruling. And that, too, all by itself, makes for a handsome library shelf: four separate opinions, plus associated orders, running to roughly 1,600 total pages. McConnell v. FEC, as the whole thing is known for convenience, is a constitutional challenge to the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (BCRA)--the McCain-Feingold bill that President Bush signed last March--and the resulting blizzard of paper is now headed for the Supreme Court, on an uncertain schedule and with uncertain consequ

Contributing to the uncertainty is the fact that very few people, save for a handful of lawyers involved in the case, have more than the dimmest notion what exactly all these documents say. Just the final, May 2 batch of them, released late on a Friday afternoon, took hours to print out on a computer. By the following morning, a number of newspapers had performed heroic feats in order to give their readers reasonably coherent accounts of the McConnell court's decision. But even the best of those reports was necessarily sketchy, and follow-up analysis has been almost entirely forward-looking: Which of the parties might seek a stay of the ruling? Which of them is best positioned to pursue an appeal? In all this talk about strategy, what already happened, and why, has been set aside. Nobody on a deadline can read 100,000-plus pages of primary-source material on the intricacies of federal election law, after all. No sane person reads such stuff at all.

And a damn lucky thing that is, too, if you're anybody associated with New York University Law School's Brennan Center for Justice. For buried inside the stacks of deposition testimony and subpoenaed correspondence are some impressively ugly revelations about that activist outfit's involvement in the design, passage, and legal defense of our new campaign finance laws. In sum: The EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE McCain-Feingold proponents have offered as the constitutional justification for a key provision of the bill, empirical evidence for which Brennan Center "research" is the source, appears to be fraudulent--DELIBERATELY FAKED.

Conventional wisdom now has it that the Supreme Court, when it does eventually hear McConnell, will inevitably be forced to review all of BCRA from scratch. The trial-stage panel, as its May 2 opinions make plain, was riven by unusually bitter disagreements. Circuit Judge Karen LeCraft Henderson, a Bush-pere appointee who decided that the new law is "unconstitutional in virtually all of its particulars," was openly contemptuous of her colleagues--both for their failure to concur in that judgment and for the dithering pace of their deliberations. The likely chief target of these complaints, District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, a Clinton appointee who voted to uphold most of BCRA, was openly contemptuous right back at Henderson, in a series of snarling footnotes. . . . - Weekly Standard
 
184steve houpt
      ID: 32428300
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 15:48
FWIW - same day audio of special 4 hour [usually one] oral arguments on CFR before Supreme Court now on C-Span [replay tonight]. Started 2:45 PM CDT. May be available on internet. Did not check.
 
185Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 11:52
Steve h -- did you check with the FEC before making that post? You might have infringed upon the public good by helping to spread lies and misinformation about such a wonderful and important piece of legislation like the CFR. Wouldn't want you to get in trouble.
 
186Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 12:34
Now, isn't this a kick in the pants, with just weeks to go?
 
187Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 14:51
Geez, what a mess. Did the ruling refer to the 527s? Kind of reads like it from the article. Unreal.

Someone, tell me again, WHY ARE WE GOING THROUGH THIS NONSENSE?
 
188Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 14:54
I believe it was pointed exactly at the 527s, Madman.

To be blunt, this whole damn thing is such a mess I'm not even going to bother to read it.

The whole thing needs to be scrapped. It's exactly what is wrong with large parts of the law these days: Overly complicated, causes more problems, and doesn't actually solve the problems it's aimed at. A person who tries to follow the law often can't because they don't know what is allowed and what isn't.
 
189Baldwin
      ID: 40826115
      Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 14:59
Someone, tell me again, WHY ARE WE GOING THROUGH THIS NONSENSE?

1) Clinton needed an answer for why his campaign violated campaign laws.

Which led to...

2) Calls for new campaign laws instead of enforcement and punishment for violations of the old ones.

Which was enabled by...

3) media whores like McCain who called for new campaign laws instead of enforcement and punishment for violations of the old ones.
 
190Madman
      ID: 43410119
      Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 15:03
Oh yeah. Now I remember. Thanks. Sometimes I forget the logic behind things like this. ;)
 
191Baldwin
      ID: 40826115
      Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 15:25
Nixon should have led a charge to pass new laws against political dirty tricks.
 
192Baldwin
      ID: 40826115
      Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 15:26
...But the liberal mainstream media wouldn't have signed onto the program.
 
193Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 21:59
As predicted, the media really dig their role under CFR as arbitors of who gets to run for president....

ABC Cuts 3 From Presidential Debate

Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich filed a complaint with the FCC on Friday after ABC News excluded him, fellow Democrat Mike Gravel and Republican Duncan Hunter from its prime-time debates on Saturday.

Kucinich argued that ABC is violating equal-time provisions by keeping him out of the debate and noted that ABC's parent Walt Disney Co. had contributed to campaigns involving the four Democrats who were invited.

"ABC should not be the first primary," the Ohio congressman said in papers filed at the Federal Communications Commission.

ABC said the candidates left out of the debates failed to meet benchmarks for their support that were outlined to each campaign prior to the Iowa caucus. Kucinich did not complain about these rules ahead of time, said spokeswoman Cathie Levine, who had no further comment since she hasn't seen the FCC filing.


Me thinks this smells putrid.
 
194Perm Dude
      ID: 37023421
      Fri, Jan 04, 2008, 22:23
Hmmm. I don't see Ron Paul filing suit against FOX. This "sue first" mentality has to go.
 
195Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Jan 05, 2008, 01:54
ABC announced last week that they'd be cutting candidates from their next debate. At least they waited until after the first primary to decide who it would be.
 
197Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, Jan 05, 2008, 02:03
The article also notes that ABC set their criteria ahead of time:
Candidates had to meet at least one of three criteria: place first through fourth in Iowa, poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major New Hampshire surveys, or poll 5 percent or higher in one of the last four major national surveys.
That doesn't sound unreasonable to me at this stage. As far as I know FOX's only criteria was that your name can't be Hunter or Paul.