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| Posted by: Boxman
- [571114225] Sat, Jun 16, 2007, 22:27
The ACLU Never Forgets Its Pro-Communist Roots By Alan Sears Saturday, June 16, 2007
Just as a leopard cannot change its spots, nor a zebra its stripes, an organization whose founder admired the “ideals” of the hammer and sickle can never really abandon those destructive beginnings.
More than a quarter-century after his death, the “legacy” of American Civil Liberties Union founder Roger Baldwin – a self-professed fan of Soviet communism and of Joseph Stalin – is still going strong. With the collapse of the Soviet empire, current ACLU leaders have thrown more of their support to one of the last remaining bastions of the Soviet ideal: Cuba. In 2005, for example, the ACLU endorsed an amendment lifting the ban on tourist travel to Cuba – a long-distance slap in the face to Cubans, who now watch foreign tourists feed corruption, pesos and dollars to the Communist machine, while they themselves are stripped of nearly all human rights. The insult was multiplied a year later, when the ACLU demanded an end to bans on academic travel, so scholars could lend their support to the regime.
But ACLU leaders are as eager to export Cuban communism as they are to import American tourist dollars. Last week, the ACLU was in federal court, arguing that a Miami-Dade County school board broke the law by removing from its school libraries a book entitled Vamos a Cuba (Let’s Visit Cuba), which offers a strangely luminous view of life in Castro’s island “paradise.” A federal judge has already ruled that the book be returned to the shelves until the case can play out in court.
The school board’s beef isn’t with what is on the pages, but with what isn’t. Parents filed complaints after finding the book to be devoid of any mention of the oppressive regime instituted by Fidel Castro nearly 50 years ago. Instead, its pages are filled with breezy commentaries on how Cubans enjoy chicken with rice (under the country’s subsidized ration plan, the average Cuban is allotted a whopping 8 ounces per month) and boating as a leisure activity (“boating” being a rather ironic term for the fragile, homemade rafts so many launch out onto the ocean, in desperate bids to escape the regime).
The book’s cover, available in both English and Spanish versions, is adorned with beaming children dressed in the uniform of the Pioneers, the Communist youth organization that Cuban children are required to join. They look like Cuban Bobbsey Twins.
Obviously, the Miami children targeted for this book have never been told that questioning the Cuban government is likely to lead to imprisonment … that milk is far too expensive for most on the island to purchase … that access to everyday activities like surfing the Internet is not only severely limited, but closely monitored by the government for any shred of dissent against Castro and his cronies.
Absent from the pages of Vamos a Cuba is any mention of the ruthless 20-year prison sentences levied on Cuban poets and journalists and priests who failed to fawn over their fearless leader. Instead, the book depicts Cubans as living as freely as they please.
Incredibly, the ACLU claims that removal of these fictions somehow violates students’ constitutional rights to “access of information.” That’s right: your kids have a constitutional right to absorb misinformation. If a pro-Communist wants to lie about the impact of the Party on the people, your tax dollars should encourage children to read those lies.
Of course, this same “right to access” doesn’t apply to information that the ACLU’s intolerant agenda deems misleading. They’re not nearly as interested in allowing both evolution and intelligent design to be discussed in science classes, or in letting a student who disagrees with homosexual behavior present his views openly and peacefully to a fellow student. It’s doubtful that a biography stressing John Paul II’s resistance to Communism, a children’s book stressing the importance of having both a mommy and a daddy, or, of course, a revisionist view of the impact of the ACLU would make the organization’s suggested reading list for Florida public schools – or the subject of an ACLU lawsuit to protect children’s “access.”
After all, when it’s not promoting Communism, the ACLU is promoting atheism. As the Number One religious censor in America, they’re probably more responsible than anyone for removing Bibles, books on Christian faith, history, and heritage, and textbooks debunking Darwinian theory from public library shelves all over the country.
And yet blocking the truth isn’t enough. The ACLU chooses clients who want to replace factual information with lies, like the blatant misrepresentations of Cuban life in Vamos a Cuba. In its determination to keep a book so ridiculously backward on the shelves, the ACLU is clearly bent on a mission of disinformation.
But then, it would have to be, to promote the current Cuban regime. Cuba’s own Constitution declares that: "Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society.” Translation: Toe the party line, fellow Cubans, or face the consequences.
Perhaps the book should be retitled, Vamos a Prisión. |
| | | 1 | Perm Dude
ID: 52527168 Sat, Jun 16, 2007, 22:49
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Alan Sears? This is a guy with a huge hardon for the ACLU, and has for a long time.
The XXXXXXX chooses clients who want to replace factual information with lies
Pot, meet kettle.
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| | | 2 | Pancho Villa
ID: 10541519 Sat, Jun 16, 2007, 23:59
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Whole there's plenty of things about which one can chatize the ACLU, the ridiculous US boycott and tourist ban are not among them. While Sears decries:
on how Cubans enjoy chicken with rice (under the country’s subsidized ration plan, the average Cuban is allotted a whopping 8 ounces per month)
he fails to mention that part of the reason the sibsidized ration is so meager can be traced to our economic boycott. Having just returned from Hawaii, I can only shudder to think what the economy of those islansds would be were it not for tourist dollars. And, of course, this country has no such restrictions concerning communist China, or even Vietnam.
As far as Sears making any type of objective comment regarding the ACLU and atheism, perhaps a little background is appropriate:
In 1993, Dr. James Dobson, the late Dr. Bill Bright, the late Larry Burkett, Dr. D. James Kennedy, and the other founders of the Alliance Defense Fund, were prayerfully seeking God’s direction for the right person to lead the fledgling organization. They selected Alan Sears, of whom Dr. Bright said God had uniquely prepared for this role.
Under Alan’s leadership, ADF has gone from an idea to the nation’s largest religious liberty legal alliance. In that time, ADF has funded more than 1,400 cases, trained over 850 volunteer allied attorneys through its National Litigation Academy program, and 400 first and second year law students through its Blackstone Legal Fellowship. ADF and its allies have also been successful in 30 cases before the United States Supreme Court. link
So when Sears claims:
the ACLU is promoting atheism. As the Number One religious censor in America, they’re probably more responsible than anyone for removing Bibles, books on Christian faith, history, and heritage, and textbooks debunking Darwinian theory from public library shelves all over the country.
one has to consider the source. Now, is the ACLU attempting to stop anyone from attending religious services? Are they demanding what churches teach in their private schools or in their religious sevices? If Sears had his way, Christianity(his brand) would be taught as the TRUTH, in public schools and only pro-Christian literature would be allowed in public libraries. Instead, he makes the preposterous claim that Christians in this country are persecuted by the ACLU, a claim not supported by evidence.
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| | | 3 | Baldwin
ID: 14358177 Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 01:26
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But you are OK with the religion known as secular humanism getting a special government monopoly in school libraries.
If it's wrong for Sears why is it right for the ACLU?
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| | | 4 | Pancho Villa
ID: 10541519 Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 01:41
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Secular humanism is a religion only in the vapid expanse of psuedo-conservative politics masquerading as relevant.
Only the most jaded would attempt to say that school libraries don't have religious sections as religious selections.
Special governemnt monopoly is unsupportable propoganda.
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| | | 5 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 07:35
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PD, PV: So the whole pro-communism thing doesn't seem to bother you. Instead you choose to attack the writer. Interesting.
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| | | 6 | Perm Dude
ID: 51559177 Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 09:03
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No, we're saying the whole "pro-communism" thing is bunk. Absolutely. Supporting academics (for instance) going to Cuba isn't "pro-comminism" and neither is representing a library from parents who want to censor a book because the book doesn't represent everything the parents want.
Putting aside just how wacky the Cubans living in Miami can be, what they wanted was censorship.
We attack the writer because he's your idiot messenger, bringing you bunk.
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| | | 7 | Pancho Villa
ID: 10541519 Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 11:06
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the whole pro-communism thing doesn't seem to bother you.
The whole pro-communist thing doesn't seem to bother you or Sears either, Boxman. If it did, you'd be protesting our trade relationship with China. You'd be questioning why we have an incredible trade imbalance with China. You'd be asking why we send billions to China each month so they can translate that into a balloning military budget, which represents a much bigger long-term security threat to this country than anything Cuba could ever muster. You'd be leading a boycott against products Made In China.
So the entire pro-communist arguement is nothing more than a hot button phrase designed to support the embarrassing economic policy we've had with Cuba for over 40 years.
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| | | 8 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Sun, Jun 24, 2007, 10:55
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Boxman They’re not nearly as interested in allowing both evolution and intelligent design to be discussed in science classes...
What's your view on this Boxman? Do you think we should teach creationism in a science class? Humor us.
PD, PV: So the whole pro-communism thing doesn't seem to bother you. Instead you choose to attack the writer. Interesting.
I don't like Castro, I am against communism. As PV pointed out we do business with and allow travel to both China and Viet Nam. Why are you focusing on poor little Cuba? Why the double standard?
I think Americans should be free to visit Cuba, it's not castro who is suffering, it's the Cuban people.
As far as the ACLU being against religion, that's a blatent lie. They have taken on cases where they have helped people protect their religion.
For example they defended the Jehovah's Witnesses...from their web site...
In the Barnette decision, the Jehovah's Witnesses asserted that it was against their religious beliefs to pledge allegiance to a flag; they believed that their allegiance should be pledged solely to God. Because of their deeply held religious beliefs, Jehovah's Witnesses children who declined to recite the pledge in unison with others were expelled from schools. Their parents were thrown in jail and attacked and beaten on the streets in America. In the Barnette case, the Supreme Court finally sided with the ACLU and came down squarely in support of religious freedom and the freedom of conscience of religious believers
Also from their web site... First, children are free to pray in public schools either as individuals or in groups. In addition, whenever a teacher opens up an assignment topic for the children's choice (such as which book to read, what to discuss in a talk to the class, or which song to sing), students may choose religious themes - and the ACLU has protected their right to do so. (Learn More) In addition, schools may offer courses about religion or about the Bible or other religious works.
And here is their position on why they have opposed prayer in schools...it sounds pretty reasonable to me, but then I am a secular humanist.
While it is permissible for public schools to teach about religion, it is not permissible to promote particular religious beliefs. Although public schools should not be leading children in prayers or religious ceremonies, they should also be respectful of the religious beliefs of students. Second, public schools should protect children from being coerced by others to accept religious (or anti-religious!) beliefs. Public schools should seek to create an environment conducive to learning by all students and not act as vehicles proselytizing for religious or anti-religious beliefs.
Those who oppose the ACLU are actually just afraid of freedom. They want to control public life in a way they think it should be controled.
As far as this one book on Cuba your source is so pationate about, he;'s cherry picking. You can't just focus on one bok that the ACLU protects and seperate it from the fact they've protected many books. Ypu have to examine their psoitions and actions as a whole not isolate one little book that makes your case.
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| | | 9 | Perm Dude
ID: 135272410 Sun, Jun 24, 2007, 11:27
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Those who oppose the ACLU are actually just afraid of freedom
Nicely put, nerve.
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| | | 11 | aclubites
ID: 563322323 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 13:11
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If you look closely at the picture above you will note that all the Marines pictured are bowing their heads. That's because they're praying. This incident took place at a recent ceremony honoring the birthday of the corps, and it has the ACLU up in arms. 'These are federal employees,' says Lucius Traveler, a spokesman for the ACLU , on federal property and on federal time. For them to pray is clearly an establishment of religion, and we must nip this in the bud immediately.
When asked about the ACLU's charges, Colonel Jack Fessender, speaking for the Commandant of the Corps said (cleaned up a bit), 'Screw the ACLU.' GOD Bless Our Warriors, Send the ACLU to France.
how stupid is the ACLU getting in trying to remove GOD from everything and every place in America.
Sorry, but didn't know how to include the picture. But as the story stated, it was of a group of marines with their heads bowed "to celebrate the birthday of the corps". I think the ACLU is going a bit overboard when they have a problem with that.
I am not at all religious, but to me the ACLU is a bunch of radical, left-wing crackpots.
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| | | 12 | Perm Dude
ID: 1660610 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 13:26
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donk44 (aka aclubites ): It would help if you weren't posting urban legends about the ACLU.
There is plenty not to like about them. But you'd come across better if you were, well, more reality-based in your opinions of them.
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| | | 13 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 13:44
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Donk44
Hopefully that'll learn ya not to believe every piece of drivel that lands in your inbox. I wonder whether you care about the truth enough to reply to the person who sent you that email and tell him/her that it isn't true - or whether you'd just prefer as many people as possible go on believing the lie.
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| | | 14 | aclubites
ID: 563322323 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 14:08
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I apologize if it was not an accurate story. And no, I don't believe everything I get in my inbox. It just sounded so typical of the ACLU stances, that I thought it was.
However, that doesn't change my opinion of them. I have seen many more true stories about their positions to know how much I dislike them, and that they are indeed radical, left-wing crackpots.
So I will leave this board to you political people, and won't litter it with any more posts.
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| | | 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 1660610 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 14:10
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It's not litter if it's true.
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| | | 16 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 14:35
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or if its a well-reasoned opinion. This forum needs fresh blood.
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| | | 17 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 17:14
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I am always amazed that there are people out there who have nothing but vitriol for the ACLU. I read their newsletter every month and come away inspired and cannot for the life of me imagine that others would not as well.
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| | | 18 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 17:20
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how stupid is the ACLU getting in trying to remove GOD from everything and every place in America.
This is simply a false statement. They are only trying to remove the government from imposing religion, they protect individuals rights to practice it as they see fit.
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| | | 19 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 19:24
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aclubites, you are dead on about ACLU, they are self-serving group of Left-wing radicals, financing themselves by suing the government. If a person raped 6 nuns, killed 10 people and shot 10 puppies, but wasn't read the Miranda, in the appropriate language, the ACLU would be the first ones there to represent him for free, if it meant either milking the government for more money or getting media attention. This is only a slight exaggeration for one of the ACLU's favorite clients is the NAMBLA, the North America Man Boy Love Association.
Those who are pro ACLU are actually just afraid of Justice.
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| | | 20 | walk
ID: 2530286 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 19:31
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Easy Jag. You know how this usually goes...
- walk
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| | | 21 | Perm Dude
ID: 1660610 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 20:01
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"First they came for NAMBLA, but I was neither a man nor a boy lover..."
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| | | 22 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 20:10
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one of the ACLU's favorite clients is the NAMBLA
I don't imagine so. But clearly NAMBLA is Jag's favorite client of The ACLU.
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| | | 23 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 20:49
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Those who oppose the ACLU are actually just afraid of freedom
You could say those pro ACLU promote pedophilia.
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| | | 24 | Perm Dude
ID: 1660610 Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 21:10
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You could say a lot of things, Jag. But if you knew anything about the case you wouldn't say that.
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| | | 25 | holt
ID: 410511410 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 08:30
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"Those who oppose the ACLU are actually just afraid of freedom"
what kind of freedom are you talking about? the kind of freedom that would grant child-porn distributors protection under the first amendment, or the kind of freedom that grants us the right to bear arms? because the ACLU is clearly in favor of one, and opposed to the other.
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| | | 26 | Perm Dude
ID: 1463679 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 10:40
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How would you say that, holt? The ACLU is all about the First Amendment (it is by far my biggest beef with them, that they hold the First Amendment to be the most important, by far, of any Amendment, to the point of seemingly refusing to balance it with other Amendments).
I dunno--I think you might be thinking of them as some sort of leftie wacko group (which they kinda are) but them conferring upon them all sorts of lefty stereotypes.
The only gun stuff I know they have taken a stand on is urging police not to use stun guns, because of problems with training and accidental fire.
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| | | 27 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 15:49
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ACLU.org BACKGROUND The ACLU has often been criticized for "ignoring the Second Amendment" and refusing to fight for the individual's right to own a gun or other weapons. This issue, however, has not been ignored by the ACLU. The national board has in fact debated and discussed the civil liberties aspects of the Second Amendment many times.
We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration.
IN BRIEF The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control. We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership. If we can license and register cars, we can license and register guns.
Most opponents of gun control concede that the Second Amendment certainly does not guarantee an individual's right to own bazookas, missiles or nuclear warheads. Yet these, like rifles, pistols and even submachine guns, are arms.
The question therefore is not whether to restrict arms ownership, but how much to restrict it. If that is a question left open by the Constitution, then it is a question for Congress to decide.
ACLU POLICY "The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment [as set forth in the 1939 case, U.S. v. Miller] that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms." --Policy #47
ARGUMENTS, FACTS, QUOTES
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The Second Amendment to the Constitution
"Since the Second Amendment. . . applies only to the right of the State to maintain a militia and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right to possess a firearm."
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| | | 28 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 16:15
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I'm pokiung around and cannot find a case where the ACLU defends child pornography as free speech. I have come across severl statements in cases where they have mentioned that child porn is not protected under the 1st amendment, such as this one (last paragraph).
I also came across a blog entry about a complaint the ACLU issued against libraries filtering access to online material. No, not access to kiddie porn, Plaintiff Charles Heinlen has attempted to use computers maintained by the NCRL to conduct Internet research and obtain information on topics relating to firearms. His ability to conduct research and access information related to firearms has been restricted by the Internet filters that the NCRL has installed on its computers. The filters have also denied Mr. Heinlen access to various dating sites, publications such as Soldier of Fortune Magazine (www.sofmag.com), the Web log (or “blog”) that he maintains at www.myspace.com, and photographs embedded in commercial emails that are sent to his Hotmail and Yahoo! email accounts....
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| | | 29 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 3164670 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 19:11
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The hypocrisy of the ACLU
By Dr. Jeremy Blanks web posted July 3, 2000
I consider myself to be a Constitutionalist and a believer in Jeffersonian principles. Some may ask, what is a Constitutionalist or Jeffersonian principles? Well, in general terms it means that I strongly support the Constitution as the law of this land and especially the Bill of Rights. Specifically, it means that I believe in individual rights. There are numerous organizations out there that support and fight every day for these rights. The National Rifle Association (NRA) is such a group as is the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). The ACLU is well known for its court, political, and media battles in support of First, Fourth, Fifth, Tenth, etc. Amendment rights. I am drawn to these organizations, due to my beliefs, and I generally support their positions in defending and preserving our rights from those that would limit or remove them.. However, I have become concerned about the ACLU, which has decided that the Second Amendment is not worthy of their support as are the other individual rights specifically listed in the Bill of Rights.
The ACLU takes this odd position on the Second Amendment for two primary reasons, along with a fall back stance. First, they have decided that the term "the people" that is contained in the Second Amendment does not apply to "the people" as it does in all of the other rights contained in the Bill of Rights. Instead, they take the position that this is a collective right and can only be assigned to a militia group, such as the National Guard, which means that Congress can limit or remove gun ownership as they see fit. Secondly, they cite the 1939 Supreme Court case of US. vs. Miller, as proof that the Supreme Court agrees with their beliefs. And finally, they take the fall back position that even if their first two reasons do not hold water, the Second is now outdated because the founding fathers could not have envisioned the type of arms that are currently available and the dangers of a few using firearms in criminal activity outweigh the value of this right to society.
Let's first address the position of the ACLU that the Second Amendment is a collective right rather than an individual one. Their entire position rests on the assumption that the term "the people" in the Second Amendment is different from the term "the people" that is used everywhere else in the Constitution and throughout the Bill of Rights. In further support of their position, the ACLU argues that the term militia is made in reference to something like the National Guard. Many people buy into these arguments without taking a close look at the Second Amendment and other supporting documentation. However, if one takes the time to only mildly explore the actual meanings here, they come to a very different conclusion. For example, the only way to assume that "the people" is a collective right in the Second Amendment is to apply that very same definition to much if not all of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Of course, that would mean that rights such as freedom of speech, press, etc. could be interpreted as collective rights rather than individual ones and therefore subject to limitations and removal of such rights listed for "the people" by Congress and other legislative bodies. Of course, that's exactly what the ACLU's position is on the Second Amendment, but in all other cases the ACLU does not support such a stance and has made it their only goal to oppose such things. How could the ACLU take such an odd position? Well, maybe it's that term "militia." When it comes to the term "militia" and this assumption by the ACLU, there is a significant body of information, which clearly indicates that the term "militia" means every able-bodied and law-abiding person. In addition, there are no quotes or written documents from the founders that would even lead one to suspect anything other than the definition commonly accepted by most constitutional scholars, i.e. the militia is the people. If anything, there is a wide collection of quotes that say just the opposite as compared to the ACLU's assumption. A few of the major ones are as follows:
"I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason, Virginia's U.S. Constitution Ratification Convention, 1788.
"That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state." George Mason, Virginia ratification convention, 1788.
"What plan for the regulation of the militia may be pursued by the national government is impossible to be foreseen...Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped." James Madison, Federalist No. 29.
"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience, or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams, Massachusetts' U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788.
"Militias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms." Richard Henry Lee, Letters from The Federal Farmer, 1788.
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789. Clearly, the ACLU's position here is not supported by any of the words of the founders nor is it supported when viewed against the rest of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Without a doubt, one must conclude on this point that the Second Amendment is an individual right and the ACLU is absolutely wrong.
The second stance by the ACLU that involves the 1939 Supreme Court case of U.S. vs. Miller is equally flawed as their first belief. This case is the only time the Supreme Court has had the opportunity to directly rule on the constitutionality of federal firearm statues during the 20th century. In this case, the court ruled that "in the absence of any evidence that the use or possession of a shotgun with a barrel of less than eighteen inches has a reasonable relationship or use in a militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right of one to keep such an instrument." In addition, the Court ruled that the weapon in question was not any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Clearly, for the keeping and bearing of a firearm to be constitutionally protected, the firearm should be a militia or military type weapon. Also, the Court noted that the militia consisted of "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time." The court implicitly rejected the belief that only those members of a specific militia are covered under the Second Amendment when it did not discuss whether there should be evidence that the defendants met the qualifications for inclusion in the militia. Clearly, they understood that the militia was all of the people. The rulings from this case are not supportive of the ACLU's position whatsoever, and in fact one could easily make an argument that if challenged, the bans on certain types of semiautomatic rifles, such as that included in the Brady Crime Bill and found in states such as New Jersey and California, are unconstitutional and would be struck down if challenged. As with the first position of the ACLU, one must conclude that there is little or no evidence to support their position. In fact, one would have to argue that the evidence supporting the opposite view presented by Second Amendment advocates is overwhelming.
The fallback position taken by the ACLU on the Second Amendment is possibly the most damaging to their overall position on individual rights. The ACLU argues that even if their first two stances are incorrect, as has been abundantly shown here and in other articles, the Second Amendment is still subject to any restrictions set forth by Congress, because the founders could not have foreseen the development of modern small arms and the potential danger from the few that would cause harm with firearms outweigh their overall value. Besides the fact that millions of crimes are prevented each year because law-abiding citizens possess firearms, the problem with this position is that the same argument applies to any of the individual rights listed in the Bill of Rights. In fact, such an argument has been used against the ACLU during court battles over the First Amendment. For example, surely the founders could not have expected the development of hate groups and their use of the First Amendment to further their divisive message. The vast majority of Americans, myself included, find such positions to be reprehensible and offensive, but yet the ACLU has fought many battles to insure that these people have the right to spread their message of hate. One could easily argue that the damage caused by racism and hate in this country are significant and in reality far more damaging on a much larger scale than anything a shotgun in ones closet could ever cause. Another example of where the ACLU has strongly opposed any regulation on the First Amendment rights is the Internet. Unquestionably, the founders could not have anticipated the development and explosion of use of the Internet as we have today and will experience in the coming decades. There are many great advantages to the Internet and we have only begun to scratch the surface, but yet there is also a dark side to the Internet. For example, there are negative Internet sites that range from groups spreading their messages of hate and lies, to descriptions of bomb making devices and how-to manuals, and finally to pornography. Does the existence of a few negative sites out of the millions of good sites mean that the entire Internet should be regulated and the First Amendment restricted? The ACLU says no. As with their first two positions on the Second Amendment, the ACLU's fallback position again does not hold water. With any freedom, there will always be those that abuse it and take advantage of the situation to further their positions. There will always be new challenges to any right and new ways to use it. Some good and some of a questionable nature. This is true of the Second Amendment as well as the First and other amendments. This is simply the price of freedom.
Having gone through this process of dissecting the position of the ACLU on the Second Amendment, the question now becomes why do they take such an odd stance that is counter to their supposed beliefs in individual rights? Why do they not join the NRA and other Second Amendment advocates in supporting all individual rights? I believe the answer comes down to a couple of issues. First, the vast majority of the members and leadership of the ACLU have never fired or maybe even held a firearm. Their knowledge base around firearms has been developed through movies, television, and the media. Therefore, many view firearms and firearm owners as a threat. Furthering their perceived fear of firearms is a belief that various firearm related activities, such as hunting, are unacceptable in a civilized society. And lastly, their lack of contact with firearms and knowledge around the subject makes it easy for them to believe that the rights listed under the Second Amendment are, in the arena of individual rights, unnecessary and even expendable. Until the members and leadership of the ACLU overcome their hypocritical desire to lessen the individual rights of those that they don't understand or agree with, they will never truly be viewed as an organization interested in supporting individual rights. Rather, they will be considered just another special interest group with a "holier than thou" belief system when it comes to the Second Amendment. Let's all hope that the ACLU quickly realizes the error of their ways on this topic and in turn joins the NRA in the fight for civil rights.
Dr. Jeremy Blanks is a Senior Research Scientist with the leading R&D company in the world. He has a wide range of interests, but lately has focused on the right to self defense.
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| | | 30 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 3164670 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 19:14
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A Liberal Case for Gun Rights Sways Judiciary
By ADAM LIPTAK Published: May 6, 2007
In March, for the first time in the nation’s history, a federal appeals court struck down a gun control law on Second Amendment grounds. Only a few decades ago, the decision would have been unimaginable.
There used to be an almost complete scholarly and judicial consensus that the Second Amendment protects only a collective right of the states to maintain militias. That consensus no longer exists — thanks largely to the work over the last 20 years of several leading liberal law professors, who have come to embrace the view that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to own guns.
In those two decades, breakneck speed by the standards of constitutional law, they have helped to reshape the debate over gun rights in the United States. Their work culminated in the March decision, Parker v. District of Columbia, and it will doubtless play a major role should the case reach the United States Supreme Court.
Laurence H. Tribe, a law professor at Harvard, said he had come to believe that the Second Amendment protected an individual right.
“My conclusion came as something of a surprise to me, and an unwelcome surprise,” Professor Tribe said. “I have always supported as a matter of policy very comprehensive gun control.”
The first two editions of Professor Tribe’s influential treatise on constitutional law, in 1978 and 1988, endorsed the collective rights view. The latest, published in 2000, sets out his current interpretation.
Several other leading liberal constitutional scholars, notably Akhil Reed Amar at Yale and Sanford Levinson at the University of Texas, are in broad agreement favoring an individual rights interpretation. Their work has in a remarkably short time upended the conventional understanding of the Second Amendment, and it set the stage for the Parker decision.
The earlier consensus, the law professors said in interviews, reflected received wisdom and political preferences rather than a serious consideration of the amendment’s text, history and place in the structure of the Constitution. “The standard liberal position,” Professor Levinson said, “is that the Second Amendment is basically just read out of the Constitution.”
The Second Amendment says, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” (Some transcriptions of the amendment omit the last comma.)
If only as a matter of consistency, Professor Levinson continued, liberals who favor expansive interpretations of other amendments in the Bill of Rights, like those protecting free speech and the rights of criminal defendants, should also embrace a broad reading of the Second Amendment. And just as the First Amendment’s protection of the right to free speech is not absolute, the professors say, the Second Amendment’s protection of the right to keep and bear arms may be limited by the government, though only for good reason.
The individual rights view is far from universally accepted. “The overwhelming weight of scholarly opinion supports the near-unanimous view of the federal courts that the constitutional right to be armed is linked to an organized militia,” said Dennis A. Henigan, director of the legal action project of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. “The exceptions attract attention precisely because they are so rare and unexpected.”
Scholars who agree with gun opponents and support the collective rights view say the professors on the other side may have been motivated more by a desire to be provocative than by simple intellectual honesty.
“Contrarian positions get play,” Carl T. Bogus, a law professor at Roger Williams University, wrote in a 2000 study of Second Amendment scholarship. “Liberal professors supporting gun control draw yawns.”
If the full United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit does not step in and reverse the 2-to-1 panel decision striking down a law that forbids residents to keep handguns in their homes, the question of the meaning of the Second Amendment is almost certainly headed to the Supreme Court. The answer there is far from certain.
That too is a change. In 1992, Warren E. Burger, a former chief justice of the United States appointed by President Richard M. Nixon, expressed the prevailing view.
“The Second Amendment doesn’t guarantee the right to have firearms at all,” Mr. Burger said in a speech. In a 1991 interview, Mr. Burger called the individual rights view “one of the greatest pieces of fraud — I repeat the word ‘fraud’ — on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”
Even as he spoke, though, the ground was shifting underneath him. In 1989, in what most authorities say was the beginning of the modern era of mainstream Second Amendment scholarship, Professor Levinson published an article in The Yale Law Journal called “The Embarrassing Second Amendment.”
“The Levinson piece was very much a turning point,” said Mr. Henigan of the Brady Center. “He was a well-respected scholar, and he was associated with a liberal point of view politically.”
In an interview, Professor Levinson described himself as “an A.C.L.U.-type who has not ever even thought of owning a gun.”
Robert A. Levy, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, a libertarian group that supports gun rights, and a lawyer for the plaintiffs in the Parker case, said four factors accounted for the success of the suit. The first, Mr. Levy said, was “the shift in scholarship toward an individual rights view, particularly from liberals.”
He also cited empirical research questioning whether gun control laws cut down on crime; a 2001 decision from the federal appeals court in New Orleans that embraced the individual rights view even as it allowed a gun prosecution to go forward; and the Bush administration’s reversal of a longstanding Justice Department position under administrations of both political parties favoring the collective rights view.
Filing suit in the District of Columbia was a conscious decision, too, Mr. Levy said. The gun law there is one of the most restrictive in the nation, and questions about the applicability of the Second Amendment to state laws were avoided because the district is governed by federal law.
“We wanted to proceed very much like the N.A.A.C.P.,” Mr. Levy said, referring to that group’s methodical litigation strategy intended to do away with segregated schools.
Professor Bogus, a supporter of the collective rights view, said the Parker decision represented a milestone in that strategy. “This is the story of an enormously successful and dogged campaign to change the conventional view of the right to bear arms,” he said.
The text of the amendment is not a model of clarity, and arguments over its meaning tend to be concerned with whether the first part of the sentence limits the second. The history of its drafting and contemporary meaning provide support for both sides as well.
The Supreme Court has not decided a Second Amendment case since 1939. That ruling was, as Judge Stephen Reinhardt, a liberal judge on the federal appeals court in San Francisco acknowledged in 2002, “somewhat cryptic,” again allowing both sides to argue that Supreme Court precedent aided their interpretation of the amendment.
Still, nine federal appeals courts around the nation have adopted the collective rights view, opposing the notion that the amendment protects individual gun rights. The only exceptions are the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans, and the District of Columbia Circuit. The Second Circuit, in New York, has not addressed the question.
Linda Singer, the District of Columbia’s attorney general, said the debate over the meaning of the amendment was not only an academic one.
“It’s truly a life-or-death question for us,” she said. “It’s not theoretical. We all remember very well when D.C. had the highest murder rate in the country, and we won’t go back there.”
The decision in Parker has been stayed while the full appeals court decides whether to rehear the case.
Should the case reach the Supreme Court, Professor Tribe said, “there’s a really quite decent chance that it will be affirmed.”
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| | | 31 | holt
ID: 410511410 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 20:26
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straight from the ACLU website:
BACKGROUND The ACLU has often been criticized for "ignoring the Second Amendment" and refusing to fight for the individual's right to own a gun or other weapons. This issue, however, has not been ignored by the ACLU. The national board has in fact debated and discussed the civil liberties aspects of the Second Amendment many times.
We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration. "
an example of the ACLU's support of NAMBLA:
ACLU To Represent NAMBLA
By Martin Finucane Associated Press Writer Thursday, Aug. 31, 2000; 5:19 p.m. EDT
BOSTON –– Saying important First Amendment issues are at stake, the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in to defend a group that advocates sex between men and boys against a lawsuit brought by the family of a murdered 10-year-old.
The family of Jeffrey Curley of Cambridge claims in its lawsuit that the North American Man/Boy Love Association and its Web site incited the molestation and murder of the boy in 1997.
The Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU said Thursday it will defend NAMBLA because the group's activities are protected under First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and freedom of association.
"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement.
The ACLU has long accepted unpopular clients and despised causes, including Ku Klux Klansmen and neo-Nazis. In 1977, the ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, Ill. – home to many Holocaust survivors. Thousands of ACLU members quit and contributions plunged.
"The Constitution is for everybody. But there are some people who just don't understand that and never will," said Harvey Silverglate, an ACLU board member.
Silverglate noted also that NAMBLA had been having trouble finding a lawyer. He said the decision to represent NAMBLA had been made by an overwhelming vote of the local ACLU board.
One of two men convicted in the murder, Charles Jaynes, 25, allegedly viewed the group's Web site shortly before the murder, and also had NAMBLA publications. Also convicted of murder was 24-year-old Salvatore Sicari.
A call to NAMBLA in New York was not immediately returned. A message on the answering machine describes it as an organization that "speaks out against societal oppression and celebrates the joys of men and boys in love."
ACLU officials said that NAMBLA argues for changes in society's views about consensual sex between adults and minors and a lowering of the age of consent. Silverglate said NAMBLA does not advocate illegal acts, and even if it did, that, too, would be protected by the First Amendment.
It is ilegal in Massachusetts to have sex with a child under 16.
Lawrence Frisoli, an attorney for the Curleys, said NAMBLA has stepped over the line from advocacy into actually participating in crimes.
"The commission of crimes is not constitutionally protected by the First Amendment. They participate. That's the allegation of the lawsuit, that the organization is participating in the rape of children," he said.
Frisoli claimed that NAMBLA assists its members in raping children by educating them on how to locate victims, how to gain their trust and how to avoid law enforcement so they won't get caught.
At separate trials last year, prosecutors said Jaynes and Sicari were sexually obsessed with the boy, and lured him from his Cambridge neighborhood with the promise of a new bike, then smothered him with a gasoline-soaked rag when he resisted their sexual advances. Jaynes allegedly molested the boy's lifeless body.
They then stuffed him into a concrete-filled container and dumped it into a Maine river.
Sicari is serving a life sentence without parole. Jaynes can seek parole in 23 years.
The Curley family last week won a $328 million verdict in a lawsuit against Jaynes and Sicari.
© Copyright 2000 The Associated Press
president of Virginia chapter of the ACLU pleads guilty to child porn charges:
On February 23, 2007, Charles Rust-Tierney was arrested and charged with possession of child pornography. He pleaded guilty to one count of receipt of child pornography on June 1, 2007.[1]
At the time of his arrest, Rust-Tierney was a member of the Virginia ACLU's board of directors, but he resigned his position after he was arrested. Rust-Tierney also performed a role under Volunteers in Service to America for the Iowa Civil Rights Commission. In addition, he has been an advocate for unrestricted use of the Internet in public libraries, and is a faculty member at the Benchmark Institute (an institution centering on social justice and "fostering change to meet the needs of an increasingly diverse population").
Rust-Tierney was arrested on charges of possession of child pornography on February 23, 2007. Federal investigators tracked the use of Rust-Tierney's credit card and web site pornography habits over a period of several years. Rust-Tierney's preliminary trial was held on Wednesday February 28, 2007, at an United States District Court in Alexandria. He was formally accused of receiving and possessing child pornography, and investigators offered evidence obtained as a result of searching his home.
On May 10, 2007, Rust-Tierney was indicted by a federal grand jury in U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, on one count of receiving child pornography and one count of possessing child pornography.[2] On June 1, 2007, he pleaded guilty to one count of receipt of child pornography. His sentencing is scheduled for Sept. 7, 2007. He could face up to 20 years in prison, but his attorneys and prosecutors have agreed to recommend a sentence of 8 to 10 years.[1]
Prior to this, Rust-Tierney had argued in court to allow unrestricted access to the Internet, including pornography, in public libraries.
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| | | 32 | Perm Dude
ID: 15610715 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 21:26
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holt, the first cut and paste was something already posted by MITH. Did you have anything to add?
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| | | 33 | Tree
ID: 23635718 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 22:00
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an example of the ACLU's support of NAMBLA:
ACLU To Represent NAMBLA
(etc etc)
now, let's look at what a representative of the ACLU *actually* said, as opposed to just a cut-and-paste from an article.
The ACLU makes it clear, however, that it does not endorse NAMBLA's objectives. "We've never taken a position that sexual-consent laws are beyond the state's power to legislate," John Reinstein, attorney for the Massachusetts branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, said in 1997. "I've never been able to fathom their position." (Boston Globe, October 9, 1997).
and related to this: president of Virginia chapter of the ACLU pleads guilty to child porn charges:
that's the actions of one individual, not an entire organization.
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| | | 34 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 22:39
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Wilmer McLean 29
I'd have to research the quotes of the first piece before attempting a response. And that response (as would be one to the columnin post 30) might be better suited for one of our 2nd Amendment threads, anyway.
On topic, one issue I have with the piece is that the writer skirts what he calls The ACLU's "fallback" position. Unless you are prepared to argue that every American should be allowed without restriction under the 2nd Amendment to keep a loaded howitzer cannon in his backyard, a cache of bazookas in his basement and a stock of scud missles in his garage, Congress has indeed seen fit to infringe on the right of the people to bear arms, with very good reason. As already posted, ACLU's position, considering this, is that The question therefore is not whether to restrict arms ownership, but how much to restrict it. Perhaps you feel that the Constitution should have been amended before the National Firearms Act (which restricts the ownership, transport and storage of destructive devices) was signed into law - and you might have a very strong argument. But what that has to do with hate groups or the internet I don't know at all. The fulcrum of ACLU's argument is not the fact that the Founding Fathers lacked foresight.
Holt 31
Your first paste (which, as PD points out, I had already provided) does not support your stated argument that the ACLU is opposed to the right to bear arms, or presumably "the kind of freedom" that grants us that right, whatever you meant by that. they simply have a different interpretation from the 2nd Amendment that you, and in my opinion, that interpretation is a reasonable one.
Honestly I'm not sure why this is a very big issue for anyone, as the ACLU does not work to take away gun ownership rights, and I suspect ACLU state chapters would eagerly defend someone charged with breaking any gun-restriction laws which they deem are in explicit non-compliance with that state's constitution.
Anyway, regarding the NAMBLA portion of post 31 the writer might be somewhat misrepresentative in stating, "The Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU said Thursday it will defend NAMBLA because the group's activities are protected under First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and freedom of association. This is essentially true, but the reader should note that the specific activities referred to here are not with regard to the distribution of child porn, which was not an issue in that case.
The primary issue of Curley V NAMBLA was that Charles Jaynes, who abducted, tortured, murdered and assaulted the corpse of 10-year old Jeffrey Curley, had visited the NAMBLA website and possessed issues of a NAMBLA publication. It was a wrongful death suit in which the Curleys argued that NAMBLA was responsible for the assault committed on their son.
ACLU Press Release on Curley V. NAMBLA In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.
What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.
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| | | 35 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 22:42
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I forgot to add that I don't follow the point in posting the story about Charles Rust-Tierney in post 31. Unless it is to argue that The ACLU actually endorses or encourages pedophelia.
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| | | 36 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sat, Jul 07, 2007, 22:43
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"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," the ACLU said in a statement.
If that statement, is not applied universally, then Speech is being limited by the "authoritative" body. So what happens holt to YOUR right to disagree, when the authoritative body is composed of persons whose ideology is diametrically opposed to your own?
The ACLU was not defending NAMBLA. They were defending the right of expression. Whether by a distasteful person/group or one with who you are in total agreement. Or would you simply prefer that only your idea of what is proper, be allowed to be heard or read?
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| | | 37 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 00:55
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After reading holt's and Wilmer's posts, all I can really say is "Pathetic". Lame ass AM talk radio drive-bys: "The ACLU sucks because they don't spend enough energy and resources defending my favorite Bill of Rights issue, the Second Amendment." The NRA is well funded and able to handle any gun issue that arises, there is no need nor is there any interest.
"The ACLU supports pedophiles." Pathetic. Did you even read the article you cut-and-pasted? A horrible tragedy occurred in Cambridge when a young boy was murdered by two sick fcuk's. The parents lashed out and wanted to blame everybody, coming up with, in my mind, a specious argument that NAMBLA "trained" these two to commit this act. This is like some parents suing Judas Priest for driving their kids to suicide or someone suing Agatha Christie for inspiring someone to commit murder. Or suing a firearm manufacturer for pain and suffering when your kid is murdered. There is just about as much direct causation in my examples as there was with NAMBLA, but you are so disgusted with NAMBLA that you can't even see this fact.
Charles Rust-Tierney is to the ACLU what Mark Foley is to the Republican Party. Simply members.
Maybe you want public schools to censure students for speaking freely. Maybe you believe landlords should be allowed to discriminate against racial minorities or Muslims. Maybe you like libraries banning lots and lots of books. For these reasons and more, you should speak out against the ACLU. But from what I've read from the two of your posts, neither of you can really say very much, a couple of poorly constructed sentences and long cut-and-pastes are all you seem capable of.
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| | | 38 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 02:00
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Bashing the ACLU because they don't do enough Second Amendment work is like bashing the NBA because they don't play hockey.
If you want to watch hockey/subvert the Founding Father's intent by letting the country tear itself apart with firearms, then by all means, go to a NHL game/support the NRA.
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| | | 39 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 02:10
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I love how when an item of the Bill of Rights goes against one of their Liberal ideologies, they decide to go with the spirit of the Constitution, typical left-wing hypocrisy. I don't think the spirit of the Constitution wanted the release of guilty pedophiles, rapists and murderers on technicalities. The ACLU should never bring up the spirit of the Constitution, for I am sure the mention of the ACLU name has the Founding Fathers spinning in their graves.
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| | | 40 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 02:26
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<----is more inclined to think that the notion of Jag being representative of what the FF intended, would have them spinning in their graves at sufficient velocity so as to end the revolving of this planet, and thus all life upon it.
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| | | 41 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 02:42
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I don't think the spirit of the Constitution wanted the release of guilty pedophiles, rapists and murderers on technicalities.
Both the spirit and the letter of the Bill of Rights protects due process of law for all. Clearly to the chagrin of Jag.
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| | | 42 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 4762720 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 02:44
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RE: 34 "Fallback position"
I agree with you, Mith, Dr. Jeremy Blanks had a flimsy argument on the aclu "fallback."
But, I posted it back-to-back with the NY Times article to show that there is a growing endorsement of the "individual rights" over the "collective rights" argument.
SZ: The second post was a NY Times article that engrossed the growing "individual rights" agreement of the Second Amendment. (Not Talk Radio)
The conflict in Constitutional interpretation is this - If only as a matter of consistency, Professor Levinson continued, liberals who favor expansive interpretations of other amendments in the Bill of Rights, like those protecting free speech and the rights of criminal defendants, should also embrace a broad reading of the Second Amendment. And just as the First Amendment’s protection of the right to free speech is not absolute, the professors say, the Second Amendment’s protection of the right to keep and bear arms may be limited by the government, though only for good reason.
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| | | 43 | holt
ID: 410511410 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 05:34
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first off, I'm not right or left. I have no democrat or republican propaganda to spew. I think a lot of good things have been done through the ACLU.
I posted here because this statement really rubbed me the wrong way: "Those who oppose the ACLU are actually just afraid of freedom"
people have a lot of reasons for opposing some actions by the ACLU. to write them off as being opposers of freedom is asinine.
"We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias"
I'm not arguing for or against gun laws here. I'm saying, how can that not be interpreted as saying that the ACLU is taking a stance that the rights of individual Americans to bear arms is NOT a freedom upheld by the constitution? there are some freedoms they champion, and then there are other freedoms they oppose.
as far as the nambla/pedophile stuff goes, the ACLU has argued that while the right to produce child porn should not be protected, the right to distribute and own that material should be protected. maybe they dropped that position long ago. I don't know. but at one time that is the position they held. so, for me, it's not hard to see why people feel the ACLU to be a threat, and I wouldn't consider those people to be opposers of freedom.
"Under the First Amendment, there are no illegal ideas. Those who commit illegal acts can be punished for wrongful conduct, but the expression of even offensive ideas is protected by our Constitution," this doesn't apply if the "expresser of the idea" can be shown to have incited imminent illegal conduct. regarding the murder mentioned above, maybe nambla's website was a contributing factor, maybe it wasn't. that's what they went to court to determine. the ACLU chose to take the position that nambla does not incite illegal conduct. whether you agree with that or not, that's up to you. I suppose either side could make a reasonable argument. but going back to this: "Those who oppose the ACLU are actually just afraid of freedom" if someone opposes the ACLU because they believe its defense of nambla was harmful, they are actually just afraid of freedom? as far as Tierny goes, very true, he was just a single member and his actions don't reflect on all ACLU members. I'm sure there are a great many in the aclu who work tirelessly to support some great causes. then there is the chance that there are some in the ACLU (say someone like Tierny) whose primary goal is to do something like change American law to lower the age of consensual sex from 18 to 16.
considering the power that the ACLU wields , I don't think it's such a good idea to automatically approve of everything they do. slapping ACLU critics down and labeling them as anti-freedom is pretty extreme isn't it? that's all I'm trying to say here. the ACLU isn't perfect, and I can't understand why anyone would staunchly defend them at every opportunity. but I guess this is just just another example of the division between the left and the right in this country. the line is drawn. the far left are going to defend this organization religiously, and the far right have no choice but to view them as a threat to their way of life and will likewise oppose them religiously.
it is really hard to make any statements in this forum without being attacked like I just slapped someone's child. if I comment on about how wrong I believe american drug laws are, then it's assumed that I hide a complete left-wing agenda and labels are tossed around. if I say something negative about the ACLU, then I'm just some moron who is parroting something I heard rush limbaugh say. as long as you just have righties and lefties flaming each other none of this really seems very constructive.
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| | | 44 | nerveclinic
ID: 1864984 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 05:49
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While I defend the ACLU on most issues I completely agree with Wilmer's points in post 29.
It doesn't mater if the "federal government" has a militia. It doesn't matter if the "state" has a militia.
The state and the federal government are the new "Kings".
The best way to maintian a free society is to allow all citizens to have the right to gun ownership making them a collective "non government" militia to protect against an unconstitutional or corrupt government in the future.
Yes it can happen here. It may already have begun with the Patriot Act.
One of Hitler's first acts was to restrict gun ownership and disarm the Jews.
On the ACLU's defense of free speech...I'm ready to send them a check.
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| | | 45 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 10:21
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What does attacks on the Boy Scouts have to do with freedom?
Scouts pull charters
More attacks
And more attacks
We can all sleep better tonight knowing we have ACLU protecting us from the Boy Scouts.
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| | | 46 | Tree
ID: 5663688 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 10:25
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The best way to maintian a free society is to allow all citizens to have the right to gun ownership making them a collective "non government" militia to protect against an unconstitutional or corrupt government in the future.
i find this interesting, because i think more and more people who lean left - myself included - are starting to see the logic in gun ownership.
now, i think there need to be tighter restrictions and more cooperation from the gun industry to prevent people who shouldn't have access to guns from having access to guns, but, for the most part, we should have the right to own them if we pass certain restrictions, which should include proper training, and various issues involving one's criminal and mental health records.
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| | | 47 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 11:07
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BSA Jag, bans homosexuals (an act of discrimination in practice whether or not it is recognized as such by legislative action). It is also, an openly religious organization. School sponsorship, when supported by tax dollars, does indeed violate the church-state prohibition. How would you feel, if your local public school, sponsored a "troop" for a radical Muslim sect? If BSA sponsorship is allowed, then so too must the Muslim "troop" sponsorship, and Hitler "troop" sponsorship, KKK anyone?
When you are looking at and criticizing the ACLU, you absolutely HAVE to learn to look at the "big picture". Not just the way it appears to impact upon something you personally hold dear. But how does it mpact the opportunities of ALL.
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| | | 48 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 11:32
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The BSA is not openly religious, that is a bunch of nonsense, they say you have to believe in God to join, but don't even say which God. Liberals really need to get their priorities straight, Christmas navtivity scenes and the BSA are not problems we need to overburden the judical system with.
It makes me laugh that Liberals think they are the intelligent ones and this is the kind of crap they promote.
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| | | 49 | Perm Dude
ID: 13652810 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 11:52
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Jag, have you been in the Boy Scouts? They certainly are openly religious, and proud of it. And there is nothing wrong with it.
Read the Scout Law or the Scout Oath.
Your argument is, essentially, they are only a little religious. Even a little religious organization is religious. If it wasn't important they would drop it, yes?
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| | | 50 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:02
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Does Jag ever attempt to frame an arguement that doesn't include a false liberal/conservative dichotomy?
It makes me laugh that someone can make such moronic generalizations and use the word intelligent in the same sentence.
Many liberals are deeply religious, while many conservatives, like you if I remember correctly, are not religious at all. Oh, that's right, you fashion yourself a moderate.
Never mind.
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| | | 51 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:19
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That intelligent discourse Jag, makes you laugh....reveals all there is to be revealed about you.
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| | | 52 | Seattle Zen
ID: 46315247 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:25
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holt post 43
I'd like to retract my previous criticism of the quality of your posts, that was a top notch contribution. I'll respond after this outstanding Wimbledon men's final.
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| | | 53 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:35
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Agreed, SZ. Federer/Nadal is becoming a historical rivalry.
Agree about the holt post as well.
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| | | 54 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:46
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Holt 43 ACLU has argued that while the right to produce child porn should not be protected, the right to distribute and own that material should be protected.
I'm really not familiar with this argument and like I said, I did poke around for something from the ACLU in support of this position. While NAMBLA does to my understanding facilitate an underground network for trading child porn, it does not (again to my understanding) do so explicitly. Such underground activities are not protected free speech and to my knowledge NACLU has never defended NAMBLA or any other group or individual for distributing or possessing such materials. What ACLU does defend, is NAMBLA's stated endeavor, to change our laws so as to allow for physical relationships between adults and children. While the very thought of this is obviously vile, seeking to change existing laws to accomodate a group's preferred lifestyle is not illegal and is protected by the 1st Amendment. If you're familiar with any examples of ACLU support for NAMBLA or other groups or individuals owning or distributing child porn I'd like to see it. One slightly gray area may come in cases where NAMBLA has defended the ownership and distribution of fictional materials that some consider child porn, such as drawings or cartoons or literature. I believe ACLU has defended ownership and distribution of such materials, arguing that they are not child porn.
considering the power that the ACLU wields , I don't think it's such a good idea to automatically approve of everything they do. slapping ACLU critics down and labeling them as anti-freedom is pretty extreme isn't it?
I don't know that anyone here automatically supports everything they do. I don't know much about Tierny or how he may have used his post to further any particular agenda, for example, and there are very likely cases they've taken up that I'd have trouble with. But to my knowledge, the bulk of their work has been to protect individual freedoms and the right to due process. Extending that protection to members of society who commit the most vile acts is essential. Once we decide that some people are not deserving of the rights and freedoms of the rest of us, they begin to break down for everyone.
Jag Requiring members to profess faith in a higher being is nothing if not a religious stance. Athiests are not specifically excluded. Being a religious group does not mean that it must cater to one specific religion.
Whats funny about your posts here is that you are so eager to find fault with ACLU that you completely disregard any of the good and important work they do. This either means you have no regard whatsoever for getting to the truth of the matter, preferring simply to demonize a group by any (honest or dishonest) means necessary, because they have an occasional tendency to disagree with some of your personal politics - or that your really do resent the concept of due process of law.
Wilmer and Holt Thanks for posting in this thread. Well rendered pro-right arguments (wherever your overall positions might actually lie) have been increasingly rare here for years now. Its very refreshing to come across an argument that requires and deserves research and time to properly respond to. I know neither of you are new to the forum by any means but I do hope both of you continue to frequently contribute.
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| | | 55 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:50
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I knew you would bring up the oath. Yes, you do take an oath, but no religion is taught or practiced, if you think a religion is practiced, please let me know what sect.
What does attacking the Boys Scouts and Christmas events have to do with freedom?
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| | | 56 | Perm Dude
ID: 13652810 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:59
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It doesn't have to be a "sect" to be religious, Jag.
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| | | 57 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:06
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My 9 year old son attended a cub scout meeting with a friend a few months ago, unbeknownst to me. It was made clear to him that the troop was an LDS only troop, in fact every scout troop in the county I live is associated with an LDS ward.
Kyle came home demanding to be baptised(like his sister)so he could be like the other kids and be a scout. I explained to him that that was not a proper reason to join a church, and the discussion would be tabled until some unidentified future date.
Now if only jag could council me as to how a moderate would react to such a situation.
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| | | 58 | Perm Dude
ID: 13652810 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:07
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Isn't it obvious, PV? A moderate would blame Clinton.
:)
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| | | 59 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:12
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Your arguements have converted me, the ACLU is great, we need someone to champion the cause to stop the damn Boy Scouts and those annoying Christmas decoration, not to mention, we really need to help those poor picked on pedophiles. Where can I send my check?
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| | | 60 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:14
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Where can I send my check?
1233 North 190 East Lehi, Utah 84043
I also accept Visa, Mastercard and Discover - sorry, no American Express.
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| | | 61 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:18
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Your story sounds a little hokey, but if you are telling the truth, I wouldn't want my kid in that troop.
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| | | 62 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:21
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Jag
Federal funding isn't supposed to go to groups that discriminate on the basis of religion, which the BSA does. I'm aware that there are some exceptions to this, and I presume that ACLU takes the same stance in those cases as well.
I do understand the simplistic, end result-oriented reaction to these stories - that the BSA are a generally benevolent organization that provides a helpful public service in enriching the lives of children... so they should just be left alone.
But in protecting our rights and freedoms, the process is just as essential as the result. When you turn a blind eye and allow an exception to a particular group because it provides an important service to some people, you open the door for that kind of subjective discretion to be applied in all kinds of places. If ACLU left the BSA alone and the powers that be then decided they could cite federal BSA funding as fair reason to fund some other group which you detest (and which also shouldn't otherwise qualify), maybe then you'd see why opening the door to BSA in the first place was a bad idea.
The subjective discretion you endorse (I do wonder whether you have extended your own arguments enough to realize your position) is a certain path to totalitarianism.
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| | | 63 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:31
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#61
Did you open the link in #57? Did you go here?
Also, make sure that den and pack meeting dates, times, and places are announced each week in Primary.
Ya think if a kid doesn't attend primary there's a slight chance of ostracization? You requested:
I knew you would bring up the oath. Yes, you do take an oath, but no religion is taught or practiced, if you think a religion is practiced, please let me know what sect.
Could I have answered your request with any more detail? Instead, I'm accused of concocting a hokey story. Sheesh.
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| | | 64 | Tree
ID: 5663688 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 13:50
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The BSA is not openly religious, that is a bunch of nonsense, they say you have to believe in God to join, but don't even say which God.
Excerpted from page 47-54, Boy Scout Handbook, 11th Edition, (#33105), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3105-2 ( from scoutmaster.org), regarding Boy Scout Law...
Scout is Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
and, of course, the Oath you mentioned, also from
Scoutmaster.org, Excerpted from page 45-46, Boy Scout Handbook, 11th ed, (#33105), copyright 1998 by BSA, ISBN 0-8395-3105-2.
. . . To do my duty to God . . .
Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
that, at the minimum, excludes those who don't believe in God, and if an organization is using federal monies and school properties, it needs to be inclusive, not exclusive.
the scouts certainly do plenty of good things in building leaders. but that doesn't give them carte blanche.
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| | | 66 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 14:03
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The U.S. Congress chartered Boy Scouts of America in 1916, with the declared purpose of promoting "the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues."
There is no mention of a religious purpose, obviously, since our secular U.S. Congress could not have chartered a religious organization. Imagine if Red Cross, which also has a Congressional charter, demanded to know whether victims of natural disaster believed in God before being willing to help them!
BSA would not be the large, successful group it is today without public sponsorship. It demands the privileges and funding of a public-sponsored organization, but refuses to honor its public duty to be nondiscriminatory in its policies and functions. Among the privileges BSA receives:
The nominal "Commander in Chief" of BSA is the President of the United States. It receives direct federal funding through the Combined Federal Campaign. (Federal employees can get paid leave to fund-raise for CFC groups.) Its primary recruiters traditionally have been public school teachers. It traditionally receives free rental from public schools. Half of all Scout units have been directly sponsored by public schools and school boards. BSA uses local, state and federal buildings, parks and property free of charge or with major fee breaks, such as the rental for the token fee of $1.00 of Ft. Camp Hill, Virginia, for the Boy Scout annual Jamboree. Boy Scouts has been recognized and advertised on U.S. postage stamps. Another major sponsor is the PTA, a group set up to enhance the experiences of all students in the public schools. Additionally, a significant percentage of BSA's overall funding is from United Way, whose own "Eligibility Criteria for Organizational Membership" (adopted by National Congress, November 30, 1972) reads: "Faithfully adheres to a policy of nondiscrimination with respect to age, sex, race, religion, and national origin in connection with the makeup of its governing body, committees, and staff and the persons whom it directly and indirectly serves." United Way of America advertises that "every group receiving funds ... maintains a policy of nondiscrimination." Since BSA has redefined itself as a private club with a religious test for membership, its Congressional charter, government/public school subsidy, and United Way funding must be dropped. But why would it wish to discriminate?
link
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| | | 67 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 14:11
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If you are done vilifying the BSA I'll quit villifying them when they quit trying to recruit my son onto the LDS Church roles, and when they quit forcing parents who are not religious to either lie or abandon participation altogether.
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| | | 68 | Tree
ID: 5663688 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 14:51
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If you are done vilifying the BSA, how about addressing the ACLU war on Christmas and how does this affects our freedom.
personally, for me, it's separation of church and state. i've got no real issues with secular holiday items like trees and sleighs, but i'm not keen on cross or a star of david.
as for your woefully ignorant "vilifying" comment, other than PV's very personal situation in dealing with the BSA, the only vilification being done around here is by you, against individuals, beliefs, causes, and even organizations that have helped YOU maintain some of your freedoms.
it should be noted that despite your insistence to paint the ACLU has some whacked out group that only defends liberal causes, they defended the rights of, among others, the American Nazi party, the pro-gun rights Second Amendment Foundation, the infamous and very much not left-leaning "God Hates Fags" Westboro Baptist Church, and Oliver North.
regarding the Second Amendment Foundation case, it flies pretty much in the face of any anti-ACLU comments said above in regards to gun cases, as th e suit was filed against the North Central Regional Library District (NCRL) in Washington State for its policy of refusing to disable restrictions upon an adult patron's request. Library patrons attempting to access pro-gun web sites were blocked, and the library refused to remove the blocks.
more from the SAF Press Release on the matter...
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| | | 69 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 18:19
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Jag Not sure who you're talking to, I don't think I've villified the BSA.
Anyway, if the point hasn't sunk in by now it just won't. The ACLU does more for you than you'll ever know (clearly) and you'll always demonize them for those times when their efforts to preserve or enforce the Bill of Rights happens to favor bad people or infringe on the practices of some of our more cherished institutions. The nature of our sensationalist media will always focus on those events, and ignore the cases where they work for more agreeable end results. You should always remember to thank the liberal media for forming your opinion of the ACLU.
Like the friend who Deroy Murdoch quotes, I thank God for the ACLU, even if we might not always agree with them or the battles they choose or the results their persuits might lead to.
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| | | 70 | Jag
ID: 3064839 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 23:21
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Anyway, if the point hasn't sunk in by now it just won't
This is the worst arguement I have ever seen. What point is suppose to sink in? The ACLU is anti Boy Scouts and Christmas and defend Nazis, pedophiles and gay bashers, at the expense of millions of tax dollars a year for court costs. If the point hasn't sunk in by now, that the ACLU is worthless, it just won't.
The nature of our sensationalist media will always focus on those events
I can't believe you even typed that. It is those events that ACLU seeks out. The media doesn't seek out the ACLU, the ACLU seeks out the media.
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| | | 71 | Perm Dude
ID: 13652810 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 23:24
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ROFL! It's like Sean Hannity here. The ACLU is Anti-Christmas! Pro-pedophiles! Hate the Boy Scouts!
Gotta hand it to you Jag: Despite waves and waves of facts being thrown at you, you aren't dissuaded from your opinions. Hold fast, friend! Those godless realists are everywhere!!
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| | | 72 | Tree
ID: 5663688 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 23:27
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This is the worst arguement I have ever seen.
and apparently the only one you saw, since you apparently missed the rest of them.
i'll miss you when you gotta start the 11th grade in a couple months, and your posting stops.
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| | | 73 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 23:33
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Fortunately for Jag his stark hatred of those who defend the Bill or Rights will not preclude him from being protected by them. Or it.
Let freedom ring.
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| | | 75 | Tree
ID: 3624918 Mon, Jul 09, 2007, 19:32
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come on MBJ, everyone knows the ACLU is a bunch if whiny, Jewish New York Liberals who hate Christianity.
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| | | 76 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Mon, Jul 09, 2007, 19:45
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just ask Jag. ;)
Nice find MBJ.
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| | | 77 | christian nadal
ID: 50124617 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 18:29
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I find it interesting that the ACLU is not concerned about the federal government advertising, distributing, selling, illegal weapons to the public through BATF licensed weapon companies. Allowing the federal government to lie and introduce false evidence in federal court to obtain convictions so as to steal their properties and intern them in the Federal Concentration Camp System known as the BOP. A simple thought? If the feds can lie, perjure themselves in federal court, introduce false evidence to get convictions on people,from something sold through catalogs like ShotGun News or on the web by Sarco, Inc. then what chance do people have in more complex cases that do not involve tenth grade level federal statutes that are easy to understand as in Title 26 Section 5845, 5811, 5812 and 18 Section 922(o)(1)?
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| | | 78 | Perm Dude
ID: 3615610 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 18:40
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Why would the ACLU be interested in that?
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| | | 79 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 19:13
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I believe, that would be called a "sting" operation, and it isnt illegal. Thus, no ACLU interest. (Unless I am grossly misunderstanding your post. IOW, The ACLU doesnt raise hell over the Feds setting up the sale of illegal narcotics for the purposes of law enforcement either. Why would they on this?)
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| | | 80 | holt
ID: 360131020 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 19:46
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Are you talking about fine products like this? http://www.sarcoinc.com/images/bmg-m2-wc-600.jpg
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| | | 81 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 20:22
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MBJ is right that the ACLU has filed amicus briefs in cases in support of christians but at this point they're lukewarm partial lefthanded help isn't really helpful or welcome.
It's like your ex offering you sympathy.
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| | | 82 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 20:23
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Good for rabbits and grouse.
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| | | 83 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 20:24
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Or aliens/predators.
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| | | 84 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 20:32
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*shaking head at 81*
Just can NOT bring yourself to admit it can you Boldy?
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| | | 85 | holt
ID: 360131020 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 02:59
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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0DB103CF93AA35751C1A965958260
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE2DE1E38F931A35753C1A965958260
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/cotc/los-angeles-plot.html
It wouldn't surprise me that the "feds" would lie or use false evidence in court. That's a good reason to avoid them by not doing things like stockpiling machine guns.
one part of the ACLU mission is to seek to protect this: Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
So, going after federal prosecutors or law enforcement officers who lie or introduce false evidence is something that the ACLU might very well do, but if you're a member of what is perceived to be a violent white supremacist group then you may find yourself with very few allies (regardless of whatever injustice you may be a victim of).
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| | | 86 | holt
ID: 360131020 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 03:14
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http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.py?people//n/nadal.christian/dignity.030194
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| | | 87 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 12:24
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HERE, is where the ACLU is needed
Nabila Mango, a therapist and a U.S. citizen who has lived in the country since 1965, had just flown in from Jordan last December when, she said, she was detained at customs and her cellphone was taken from her purse. Her daughter, waiting outside San Francisco International Airport, tried repeatedly to call her during the hour and a half she was questioned. But after her phone was returned, Mango saw that records of her daughter's calls had been erased....
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| | | 88 | Myboyjack
ID: 56039812 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 12:34
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hmmmm....I think the government will the "laptop = suitcase" argument; however, I'm not sure their right to conduct a border search and seize a person's laptop relies on that alone.
Maybe I won't take my laptop to Germany next month....gonna make the baseball draft a real pain in the a$$ though.
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| | | 89 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 15:45
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If the Govt is going to equate laptops with suitcases, then they need to be added to the "Do Not Carry On" list. Allowing you (seemingly) to bring it to the airport, only to have it seized and not reurned a year later...is bogus. Where are the warrants allowing seizure of personal property? Where is the Probable Cause for executing the seizure? By what authority, do they delete the history of incoming calls from a persons cell phone?
Sorry MBJ, this is direct stomping of citizens constitutional rights, and its indicative of how this sound-bite "war on terror" has been allowed to grow until its become a monstrosity busily trampling on citizens.
And please, no one give me that "I'd rather they do this than allow a terrorist in" bullsh*t. No one wants terrorists allowed in. But neither do I want my government, taking my property without due process/cause.
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| | | 90 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 17:18
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I left out the word "lose" in post 88...a search of a laptop is not the searcof a suitcase.
Where are the warrants allowing seizure of personal property? Where is the Probable Cause for executing the seizure?
These aren't required when conducting a border search. That's always been the law. It's considered a "reasonable" search. The Constitution only requires warrants for "unreasonable" searches.
I'm very troubled by the seizure of laptops and cell phones for anything that goes beyond insuring they aren't an immediate threat; however, the government has traditionally been allowed wide latitude to search for contrband at the border. Technology is often ahead of legal precedent. Seems to me these searches of electronic equipment are more intrusive on privacy interests than a search of luggage and should be considered unreasonable absent probable cause; however the government has precedent on its side.
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| | | 91 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 17:29
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lol Challengers 50-50-90 rule. Facing a 50-50 proposition of the missing word being "win" or "loose", there exists a 90% probability I'll make the wrong choice. :)
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| | | 92 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 17:29
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make that "lose", not "loose"...sheeesh
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| | | 93 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Tue, Jul 08, 2008, 19:10
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This thread is littered with many, many pathetic posts, but I'll resurrect it in order to share a great article written by a 10 year ACLU-WA attorney who just left to become a law professor at Loyola School of Law.
Ten Years with the ACLU - What I have learned from the outstanding, collegial, and supportive bench and bar of this state
When I left private practice in 1998 to begin with the ACLU, I knew that the position would allow me to work on some interesting and important cases. I did not predict that I would be, in the words of that aphorism that is part blessing and part curse, practicing civil liberties law in "interesting times." I had a front-row seat when the city of Seattle overreacted to anti-WTO demonstrations in 1999 by declaring most of downtown a "No Protest Zone." New computer technologies turned me, somewhat by accident, into an authority on the rights of public school students who get suspended for using the Internet to say things their school principals don't like. Most important, I did not predict that much of the ACLU's work in the years since the terrorist attacks of September 11 would be devoted to defending the concept of the rule of law itself, which has been assailed by the pernicious argument that it is somehow an unaffordable luxury for the government to follow the rules that protected our nation's freedoms for two centuries. Funny thing is, if you turn off Fox News for just a second and read about the ACLU's work from the attorneys themselves, I think you'll come away with a ton of respect for the landmark, vital and under appreciated work they do.
Recognizing historical parallels can help you frame a successful argument. We were contacted by students who were threatened with suspension from school not because of anything they had written on the Internet, but because they had created a bulletin board for open discussion on which other anonymous students had said punishable things. In many important respects, the case resembled the famous sedition trial against John Peter Zenger in 1735.
Zenger was an early publisher of newspapers, which at the time were a new and unfamiliar technology that allowed people to express their ideas to a wider audience at an unprecedentedly low cost. Zenger got into trouble not for his own writings, but for creating a platform where other anonymous speakers criticized the British bureaucrat then running the New York colony. The jury refused to convict Zenger, and his story motivated the framers of the Constitution to include strong protections for freedom of speech and press.
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| | | 94 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 13:14
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Marine's anti-Obama Facebook comments fuel debate
The local American Civil Liberties Union said in a statement Wednesday that it has sent a letter to Camp Pendleton's commanding officer urging the Marine Corps to protect Sgt. Gary Stein's right to freedom of speech.
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| | | 95 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 13:18
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He's absolutely got the right to free speech. But Obama is his boss and to take off on your boss there is likely to be repercussions.
Free speech doesn't mean there are no costs.
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| | | 96 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 13:20
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The right to free speech does not protect en employee from consequences resulting from him speaking against his employer. If I call my boss a shithead on Facebook, I'd expect that it would not be taken lightly by my corporation, if they found out.
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| | | 97 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 13:37
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absolutely. for me, the relative issue was the ACLU protecting the freedoms of the Marine in question.
Since many on the Right feel the need to bash the ACLU for simply existing, i thought it was important to post an instance where they are defending the rights of someone to criticize Obama.
(although i'm sure someone will claim this is part of the the Ron Howard-Jeremy Piven strategy, or whatever it's called)
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| | | 98 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 13:42
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"(although i'm sure someone will claim this is part of the the Ron Howard-Jeremy Piven strategy, or whatever it's called) "
For the record, please don't type stuff like that when I'm drinking Diet Coke. It burns when spewed out the nose.
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| | | 99 | Tree
ID: 248472317 Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 13:52
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we could alternately call it the Howard-Piven Strategy, or the Ron-Jeremy Strategy, since you're getting hosed big-time if you actually believe this is what is going on right now.
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| | | 100 | astade Sustainer
ID: 214361313 Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 00:46
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If his opinions are regarding health care reform I don't see it as a big issue. It would be another thing if he was criticizing military deployment/strategy...something that is close to his line of work. Additionally, if a government employee couldn't voice their opinion about any stance of Obama's then we'd have a significant US population that was stifled (since we have big government).
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| | | 101 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 00:57
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That's largely true. But a military person trades away a lot of political speech when they sign up. When the guy (the organizer of the Armed Forces Tea Party Patriots) says:
"My oath was to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and that oath will be kept. I won't "Just follow" orders. There is at this time a debate within the ranks of the military regarding their oath. Some mistakenly believe they must follow any order the President issues. But many others do understand that their loyalty is to the Constitution and to the people..."
He's treading very close to the line.
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| | | 102 | astade Sustainer
ID: 214361313 Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 01:23
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RE: 101 I can't disagree with that. I hadn't seen that quote, but I agree that there is a fine line and being dissident can come with a price.
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