Forum: pol
Page 2929
Subject: holy. crap. a partial pardon?


  Posted by: soxzeitgrist - [19612217] Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 18:38

target="_blank">Bush "respects" the jury, but gives it the finger
anyways with what amounts to a signing statement on Scooters
sentence.


They're brash, I'll say that much for the administration.
 
1Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 18:48
Yeah, I just saw that.

Another link.

He's "The Decider" all right.

 
2Tree
ID: 26651217
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 18:52
astonishing. this basically confirms that Bush feels he, and his cronies, are completely and totally above the law.
 
3Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 19:04
Selective outrage much?
 
4soxzeitgeist
ID: 19612217
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 19:20
Not really. I think most pardons are bunk, from Clinton's Mark Rich
and Gregory (Edward?) pardons to the inevitable lame duck 11th
hour BS clemencies that are part and parcel of every outgoing
executive branch holders (govenors too) "duties".

This one is just particularly odious, as it's a microcosm of all that it
wrong with the administration. Or are you suggesting that you'd
teach your kids that it's perfectly acceptable to behave as Scooter
did, mbj?
 
5Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 19:33
I think mbj is reacting to tree's "are completely and totally above the law."

I do think that allowing Libby to, essentially, pay a fine for lying to prosecutors (several times) puts ideology above the law. Ironically, by allowing the Vice President's office to selectively de-classify documents and leak to the press information in order to punish political opponents, they compromise national security as well as the efforts to investigate their actions.

pd
 
6Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 19:38
We're going to change his name to Skip Libby.
 
7Building 7
ID: 571192610
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 22:26
Only 140 more pardons and he'll catch up with Clinton.
 
8Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 22:29
No comparison.

Given Bush's reticence to pardon even the mentally ill, or people who are truly repentant and are born again in prison, pardoning his Vice President's Chief of Staff for repeatedly lying to prosecutors sets the Administration as being above the law.
 
9Seattle Zen
ID: 224141222
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 23:35
I'm f'ing furious! What a JOKE! Hoist your glass, Toral, the Republicans are on their way out for quite some time, so enjoy it while you can.
 
10Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 00:07
Well, I'm not gloating or anything, but anything that makes SZ furious is at least good for achieving entertainment value.

Just for something to think about, I will print here why Timothy Noah of Slate, a credentialed liberal, says: "Why Bush Was Right To Spare Libby" :
President Bush's commutation of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby's 30-month prison sentence will likely prompt many people with politics similar to my own to cry bloody murder. It will be called a coverup. It will be called a payoff for Libby's failure to implicate Vice President Dick Cheney, and perhaps even Bush himself, more directly in the Plamegate scandal. It will be compared to President Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon, and to Bush père's pardon of former defense secretary Caspar Weinberger a mere 12 days before Weinberger was to go on trial for perjury in connection with the Iran-contra scandal. Both of these actions were wrong. But the comparison is a weak one. What Bush did was just and fair. It was the right thing to do.

I don't take lightly the fact that Libby lied to federal prosecutors about his role in unmasking Valerie Plame as a covert CIA employee. The underlying offense probably wasn't illegal—because Libby probably didn't understand that Plame's identity was a government secret—but it was nonetheless disgraceful. Libby understood that, and that's why he committed perjury. His prosecution was appropriate because Bush administration officials need to know that they are not above the law. Libby's trial and conviction, I hope, got that message across to at least some of them.

But Judge Reggie Walton went overboard in sentencing Libby to 30 months. This was about twice as long as the prison term recommended by the court's probation office, and if Libby hadn't been a high-ranking government official, there's a decent chance he would have gotten off with probation, a stiff fine, and likely disbarment. Walton gave Libby 30 months and a $250,000 fine, then further twisted the knife by denying Libby's routine request to delay the sentence while his lawyers appealed it. (Libby was duly assigned the federal prison register number 28301-016, but Libby's lawyers managed to move quickly enough to keep Libby out of the slammer until his appeal was denied on July 2, the same day Bush commuted his sentence.) The voluminous pleas for leniency from Libby's A-list friends seem to have annoyed Walton, who erred on the side of severity not in spite of Libby's high position in government but because of it. Walton wanted to make an example of him.

What's the matter with that? Two words: Bill Clinton. No fair-minded person can deny that the previous president committed perjury about Monica Lewinsky while serving in the Oval Office. The country knew it, and it let him get away with it. Does that mean no government official should ever again be prosecuted for perjury? Of course not. But it does mean Walton should have wondered whether he was imposing a double standard in treating Libby more harshly because Libby worked in the White House. Is it really fair to treat White House aides more harshly than presidents?

It would have been wrong for Bush to pardon Libby, as many Republicans urged him to do. Libby committed a crime, and it wouldn't have been right for Bush to do anything to minimize the attendant disgrace or to lighten Libby's $250,000 burden. "The reputation he gained through his years of public service and professional work in the legal community is forever damaged," Bush said. And so it should be. Bush did not intervene to spare Libby further disgrace, as Ford did with the Nixon pardon, and he didn't preempt a prosecution that might reveal embarrassing facts about himself, as Bush's father did. He waited until it was all over, and he acted humanely. Yes, it was inconsistent with his past indifference in such matters, particularly when he was governor of Texas. One can only hope that, having behaved decently once, he'll acquire the habit. In the meantime, bully for him.


Toral

 
11Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 00:24
I was just reading that piece about 15 minutes ago. Doesn't make much sense the second time reading it either. To say that Libby shouldn't have any jail time because the judge went overboard doesn't make sense, unless you believe in the first place he should only have a fine and probation (which doesn't appear to be his point).

Also, comparing Clinton (who was tried in the Senate, for perjury surrounding a sexual harrassment charge) with Libby (who was tried on repeated counts of releasing information of a national security nature) is hardly a comparison at all, and I think people will see through that very quickly.
 
12Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 00:34
I think it's hilarious. After all, Scooter was Marc Rich's lawyer, Clinton's most famous pardon. But does anyone think for a moment that Limbaugh or Coulter will accuse these clowns of being the real elitists in this country?
No, they'll be too busy making those claims of Michael Moore for cleverly exposing the health care disaster in this country.
Am I the only one who sees the humor in this melodramatic farce?
 
13Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 00:39
We don't even appear to read the same, pd. One of us is from mars the other from venus, i guess.

pd unless you believe in the first place he should only have a fine and probation (which doesn't appear to be his point)

Chatterbox: "if Libby hadn't been a high-ranking government official, there's a decent chance he would have gotten off with probation, a stiff fine, and likely disbarment"

pd: Also, comparing Clinton (who was tried in the Senate, for perjury surrounding a sexual harrassment charge) with Libby (who was tried on repeated counts of releasing information of a national security nature) is hardly a comparison at all, and I think people will see through that very quickly

The penalty for President Clinton would have been removal from office. Mr Libby has already left his office.

You make a very disingenuous point: "Libby (who was tried on repeated counts of releasing information of a national security nature)"

A ludicrous point. The only thing the White House did wrong is to try to be subtle. Perhaps President Bush should have just come out at a press conference and called Joe Wilson and his wife liars, fakes, and frauds and announced the firing of Valerie Plame himself on the spot. That would have been a better resolution to the policy issue.

Scooter Libby is being punished for being too nice a guy, in how he defends his country's national security interests. As John Derbyshire as said, being railroaded into disgrace, jail, or exile by the Opposition on national security issues is a long British tradition; and climbing the greasy pole involves some risk.

But certainly not jail -- for a man who is 100 times more honest, more faithful to his country, and better in every way than you? Just from malice and spite? Is that really how you Democrats propose to use your power, when you attain it?

Toral
 
14Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:37
Scooter Libby is being punished for being too nice a guy

That is just nonsense. Libby lied to the FBI. Repeatedly. And that makes him "more faithful to his country?"

That does make him more faithful to his Party. And we see where the Party is going, don't we?
 
15walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:39
Well, if Bush commuted Scooter (and will eventually pardon on his way out, d'oh!), I would pardon PD if he's 100x less honest, faithful and plain ol (not) better." However, PD, I don't have those powers.

So, if I read this correctly, #13, Wilson and Plame were liars, fakes and frauds?

Bush had to protect his own -- scooter was the fall guy and may have finally caved on dick and george in prison. No prison and some $ under the table to pay the fines and cover his non-income means it's all better now. At the end of the day, this administration cannot be outted to the common man for starting a war based on lies. Scooter's commutation makes it safe(r).

- walk
 
16walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:41
Right, PD. I also read comments on the Wall St. Journal that many folks think Scooter should be pardoned cos he was loyal and protecting the country's interests. Loyal to his party and protecting the lies about why we invaded Iraq. Just too weird how there are such divergent perceptions.

- walk
 
17Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:44
That does make him more faithful to his Party. And we see where the Party is going, don't we?

That is utterly absurd.

Well I see where the folks who reduce everything to "party" -- e.g., you -- are going. It seems to me to be the way of the Red Front. You are intentionally deluding yourself, intentionally whipping yourself into a self-righteous lather, not because it's right, but for the sheer pleasure of it. And that's very disturbing -- if there is no responsible left/centre party. Because the consequences of that, for what emerges as the opposition, are tremendous.

Toral
 
18Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:45
The penalty for President Clinton would have been removal from office. Mr Libby has already left his office.

Greater points aside, this is a pretty disingenuous argument in it's own right. Removal from the office of Chief of Staff to the Vice President is not nearly as harsh or impactful a penalty as removal from the office of POTUS.

10 years from now, many (most?) average Americans will not remember Scooter Libby, or at least not more than casually as some government official who got into trouble for something or other. If charges had never been brought, few Americans would have known of him at all, and far fewer would recall his name 10 years from now.

President Clinton was acquitted, yet his legacy will be forever disgraced for lying under oath about a marital affair.
 
19Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:49
#17: I think self-righteous partisan lather is something that you've got a bit of a corner on yourself, Toral.

What you've done is confuse Libby's act of lying with some act of patriotism, because of Cheney's (not Bush's) need to "punish" Joe Wilson (for what, exactly? You don't say).

And I think MITH's points are important as well: Libby was actually found guilty.
 
20walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:52
I think at the end of the day, a lot of the reactions are based on whether the reactee believes that a crime was committed in the first place: that the white house intentionally fcuked over Wilson & Plame cos they fcuked over the white house who fcuked over the country. I find it hard to believe that one does not believe these fcuk-over's happened.

- walk
 
21Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:52
walk 16 Loyal to his party and protecting the lies about why we invaded Iraq.

As you say, weird there are so many divergent views. Libby was loyal to the position of the Administration (not the "party", which is indifferent). You view their views, not just as wrong, but as "lies". And accuse Cheney of wanting to enter the war for personal financial profit. And then sometimes wonder why discourse is so incivil.

One of the great ironies in this is that Scooter Libby's calls (note: to Tim Russert) were complaining about anti-Semitism in media reports. Now why is it that I don't think that you, walk, have ever complained about such calls as being government restriction of free speech?
 
22walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:55
And the "fcuk-over of the country" was a biiiiiig one.

Neverending war (and all of the associated horror associated) + increased anti-Americanism/extremism + depletion of our military + soaring national debt vs. sex & lies with a subordinate. The latter is pathetic, the former is astoundingly consequential.

- walk
 
23Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:56
ROFL! Play the anti-semitism card to complete the transformation of Libby into a victim.

I see you put "lies" into quotes. Let's put it out there, Toral: Do you believe that Libby lied to investigators in the course of their duties? Yes or no? You don't seem content to say that the punishment is enough--you seem to imply that there was no crime because Libby was loyal.

Crime, or not? Don't hide behind rumors or lies--did Libby lie? And was that a crime?
 
24walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 10:59
Whatfcuking ever, Toral. Weirdo. Make it personal about me. Fine. Whatever you need to do.

Loyal to the admin, loyal to the party...semantics as far as I am concerned. You get the meaning.

I accuse cheney/bush of lying about entering the war. Of not properly disclosing the truth behing why we went to war, of not understanding the consequences of starting the war, of not properly executing the post-war activities, and then of covering it up (see Scooter). It seems like you either disagree that this occurred or are okay with that.

- walk
 
25Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:00
Little chance Libby would have had his sentence reduced on appeal.

 
26Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:01
18 MITH President Clinton was acquitted, yet his legacy will be forever disgraced for lying under oath about a marital affair.

Actually is that true, MITH? I have the strong opinion that most of your fellow Democrats and liberals see nothing wrong with lying under oath about an extra- marital affair, nor with the affairs themselves. Their only regret is that they couldn't have as many opportunities for adultery as President Clinton did so they could take as much advantage; it would be hard for you -- I mean, them -- to decide how to act if they had to decide whether to perjure themselves about them.

And if President Clinton's legacy is forever disgraced in the eyes of the people -- whose fault is that?

Toral
 
27walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:06
I think you are sorta correct in #26, at least as far as I concerned, Toral. I don't think Clinton should have lied, but I don't think he should have been tried for impeachment over his affairs in the first place. I'd liked for him to have admitted everything, and our country be like: "SFW?" and that's the end of that. He get reprimanded for inappropriate conduct with a subordinate, he get whatever his marriage had coming to him, and then we get back to work. These affairs happen way too much for us to hypocritically and selectively impeach presidents. Newt was having one with his staffer at the same time he was leading impeachment cries against Clinton. Bizarro! I would not be surprised if they were doing their own foursome or just a nice dual brokeback thing amongst themselves, and I could not care other than the humor in it.

The war thing...I care about that, as should (high horse here) every American (and Canadian).

- walk
 
28Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:06
Your opinion, in this case, is wrong.

Most Democrats felt it was inappropriate to be spending taxpayer money with an independent investigator to ask the questions. No one condoned the lies (though you're welcome to look for them).

First poll I've seen on the partial pardon

Less than 1 in 3 Republicans agree with the President's decision.
 
29Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:08
Crime, or not? Don't hide behind rumors or lies--did Libby lie? And was that a crime?

No, I don't believe Libby lied. And even if he did lie, lying to investigators where there is no underlying crime should not be a criminal offence. At common law, there is no obligation to say anything -- even to tell the truth -- to police officers (basic Perry Mason).

And before anyone brings this up -- I would have voted against convicting President Clinton in the Senate [impeachment] as well.

Toral
 
30Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:18
Toral #26

I'm not a Democrat and won't speak for anyone else but lying under oath is never a small matter.

I won't deny that responsibility for Clinton't tainted legacy starts with Clinton but Starr had no reason to expand the Whitewater investigation into the Lewinski affair in the first place.

-also-

Their only regret is that they couldn't have as many opportunities for adultery as President Clinton did so they could take as much advantage; it would be hard for you -- I mean, them -- to decide how to act...

Why is that necessary?
 
31Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:19
I don't believe that a member of the Executive Branch, being asked questions by a special investigator appointed by the President, can avoid those questions, Toral. But it doesn't appear he did avoid them.

I do think we need to get rid of this canard about "no underlying crime," for two reasons: We don't know if there is an underlying crime or not. And obstructing justice is a separate crime because the courts realize that lying makes it harder to make that determination.

If I "know" my neighbor is not guilty of a crime, I cannot lie to the police to ensure he doesn't get caught. Obstruction is any interference with the due process of law. Not saying anything wouldn't be obstruction, but lying is.

Of course, if you believe he didn't repeatedly lie, that's a different matter.

WaPo: Decision made largely alone. By this I think they mean "no Cheney fingerprints were found." Anyone think Cheney wasn't bending Bush's ear on this one?
 
32walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:26
It's not like Cheney is going to send George and email asking for a pardon. This conversation likely happened a long time ago and the the decider had to decide when to pull the string. Just after the appeals court denied the appeal, apparently. - walk
 
33Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:32
MITH 30 Starr had no reason to expand the Whitewater investigation into the Lewinski affair in the first place.

Au contraire. When substantive allegations of perjury against President Clinton were made, Mr Starr had no choice but to investigate him under the law as it was.

Ken Starr was one of the few people regarded as a consensus SCOTUS candidate -- someone who could be approved even by Democrats -- before he was assignjed this job. He disapproved of the statute, but enforced it to the best of his ability.

In terms of integrity or professional competence, no Democrat/liberal I've ever met here is close to worthy to shine Ken Starr's shoes. But Starr would probably shine those shoes himself, because he has an ethic of service and a Christian servant mentality.

I have to go shortly. Won't be able to take on the liberal Gadarene swine one against ten all day long; but I'm not giving up; even I have other things to do.

MITH: Don't slander people much more reputable than yourself and then get defensive and picky about matters of "case" (in grammar terms).

Toral
 
34walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:37
Oh yeah, yeah ... and you're not worthy of, of, of ... shining dick cheney's shoes! So there!
 
35Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:45
Haven't left yet (watching TPiR): but it is worthy to note that walk was right twice.

32 Isn't it obvious that the response to the court decision to Mr. Libby to jail was decided in advance? I would think so. There was a long explanation pre-prepared.
-- And what is wrong with that?

34 Quite right. I am not worthy of shining Vice President Cheney's shoes.
-----------------------------------------
Two correct and truthful posts by walk in a row...we could go for the record here. (What is the record? 2? 3? 4?)

Showcase Showdown coming up. Bye.

Toral
 
36walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:48
I am in a good place.

- walk
 
37walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 11:50
Bill Maher: What was the Downside?
 
38Tree
ID: 3533298
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 12:18
I have the strong opinion that most of your fellow Democrats and liberals see nothing wrong with lying under oath about an extra- marital affair, nor with the affairs themselves.

just what exactly was wrong with any affair Clinton might have had, in regards to how this nation is run.

it is a convenient excuse for conservatives who constantly trot out the Clinton horse, as if his transgressions some how excuse the even more severe transgressions of the Bush regime...
 
39Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 12:44
Toral 33
Starr had no choice but to investigate him

If this is true I'll have no choice but to rethink that part of my opinion of the Starr investigation.

If I slandered Starr it was out of my own ignorance and not any deliberate attempt to malign him.

Discussions with you in this forum are much more enjoyable for me when the atmosphere is cordial. You're far less concerned with that matter than me.
 
40Building 7
Sustainer
ID: 171572711
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 12:46
just what exactly was wrong with any affair Clinton might have had, in regards to how this nation is run.

Blackmail would be one possible reason.
 
41Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 12:50
I agree. But it still doesn't mean it Starr made the right call to track that down.

Speaking of blackmail, I do think that is one reason why Bush might have done this. Libby, as Cheney's CoS, probably knows a heck of a lot of information about his bosses. Bush might have wanted to take that off the table. Knowing that Libby was going to take one for the team anyway, Bush wanted to make sure the punishment wasn't enough to make Libby talk. Now, Fitzgerald has one less tool to leverage Libby testimony against Bush & Cheney.
 
42walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 12:58
Totally agree with #41, PD. I bet the fines and a nice pension are going to be handled by Bush and friends as well.

- walk
 
43walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 13:18
Commutation out of Fear
 
44Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 13:30
A full pardon isn't ruled out yet.
 
45walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 13:38
July 3, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Ending the Farce
By DAVID BROOKS


In retrospect, Plamegate was a farce in five acts. The first four were scabrous, disgraceful and absurd. Justice only reared its head at the end.

The drama opened, as these dark comedies are wont to do, with a strutting little peacock who went by the unimaginative name of Joe Wilson.

Mr. Wilson claimed that his wife had nothing to do with his trip to investigate Iraqi purchases in Niger, though that seems not to have been the case. He claimed his trip proved Iraq had made no such attempts, though his own report said nothing of the kind.

In short order, Wilson established himself as the charming P.T. Barnum of the National Security set, an inveterate huckster who could be counted on to wrap every actual fact in six layers of embellishment. His small part in the larger fiasco of the Iraq war would not have registered a micron of attention had the villain of the epic — the vice president — not exercised his unfailing talent for vindictive self-destruction.

Act Two opened with a cast of thousands crowding the stage, filling the air with fevered vapors and gleeful rage. Perhaps you can remember those days, when the Plame story pretended to be about the outing of an undercover C.I.A. agent. Perhaps you can remember the howls of outrage from our liberal friends, about the threat to national security, the secret White House plot to discredit its enemies.

Perhaps you remember the media stakeouts of Karl Rove’s driveway, the constant perp-walk photos of Rove on his way to and from the grand jury, the delirious calls from producers (The indictment is coming today! The indictment is coming today!).

There were media types so eager to get Rove, so artificially appalled at the thought of somebody actually leaking classified information, they were willing to forgive prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald for throwing journalists in jail. It was like watching a city of Ahabs getting deliriously close to the great white whale.

That was back when everybody thought Rove was the key leaker. But then it turned out he wasn’t. Richard Armitage was, as Fitzgerald knew from the start.

By the start of Act Three, nobody cared about the outing of a C.I.A. agent. That part of the scandal disappeared. And all that was left of Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame were the creepy photos in Vanity Fair.

Act Three was the perjury act, and attention shifted to the unlikely figure of Scooter Libby. As Joe Wilson was an absurd man with a plain name, Scooter Libby was a plain man with an absurd name. And the odder thing was that Libby was the only normal person in the asylum. People who knew him thought him discreet, honest and admirable. And yet the charges were brought and the storm clouds of idiocy gathered once more.

Republicans who’d worked themselves up into a spittle-spewing rage because Bill Clinton lied under oath were appalled that anybody would bother with poor Libby over lying under oath. Democrats who were outraged that Bill Clinton was hounded for something as trivial as perjury were furious that Scooter Libby might not be ruined for a crime as heinous as perjury. It was an orgy of shamelessness. The God of Self-Respect took sabbatical.

The trial and sentencing, Act Four, was, to be honest, somewhat anticlimactic. Fitzgerald, having lost all perspective, demanded Libby get a harsh sentence as punishment for crimes he had not been convicted of. The judge, casting himself as David against Goliath, demonstrated an impressive capacity for talking about himself.

And finally, yesterday, came Act Five, and a paradox. Scooter Libby emerged as the least absurd character in the entire drama, and yet he was the one who committed a crime. President Bush entered the stage like a character from another world, a world in which things make sense.

His decision to commute Libby’s sentence but not erase his conviction was exactly right. It punishes him for his perjury, but not for the phantasmagorical political farce that grew to surround him. It takes away his career, but not his family.

Of course, the howlers howl. That is their assigned posture in this drama. They entered howling, they will leave howling and the only thing you can count on is their anger has been cynically manufactured from start to finish.

The farce is over. It has no significance. Nobody but Libby’s family will remember it in a few weeks time. Everyone else will have moved on to other fiascos, other poses, fresher manias.
 
46walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 13:38
Not my view, but trying for some "balance"...
 
47Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 13:49
I guess the balance is between the truth and not-truth?

Brooks, like a lot of those on the Right, continue to trot out Joe Wilson as a liar. Wilson (a self-promoter, as it turned out) is not easy to like. But his claim was that the story about Iraq trying to buy Nigerian yellowcake wasn't true. And Wilson was right.

Everything else is just an attempt to discredit Wilson, as though if he's discredited enough then no one will notice that he was right about Niger, and the Administration was wrong.

The rest was payback. And Libby lied to cover it up.
 
48Building 7
Sustainer
ID: 171572711
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 13:53
IMO they should propose an amendment to Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution. Where it says...."and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

I would add....subject to approval by the majority of the House of Representatives. Or 60% or something. This way the valid pardons would get approved and the political ones or ones involving bribes or payments to family members would be more difficult. In fact, the President has no say in amendments to the Constitution. I would not give the blubberers in the Senate any more power than they currently have. Of course, two thirds of the blowhards in the Senate would have to approve it, so it would likely not pass, unless they also had the power of approval.
 
49SeattleZen on Vashon
ID: 224141222
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 13:53
Post 29 Toral

No, I don't believe Libby lied. And even if he did lie, lying to investigators where there is no underlying crime should not be a criminal offen[s]e. At common law, there is no obligation to say anything -- even to tell the truth -- to police officers (basic Perry Mason).

Libby lied, no one other than you has said otherwise. Under oath, he told investigators that Tim Russert told him about Plame. That was a lie.

But you knew he lied, so you tried to explain it away. And even if he did lie, lying to investigators where there is no underlying crime should not be a criminal offen[s]e. First, you are in North America, drop the phony English spelling, you look foolish. Bush declassified Plame's status as a CIA operative. I am not sure if he did this before Libby blathered it around the Beltway or after, either way, it is a particularly callus argument. Do you agree that there is a good reason behind keeping CIA operatives' identities secret? I will need an answer to that because not even the biggest Bush/Cheney apologist can disagree with that. Bush declassifies her little "secret" and now Libby's lawyers claim that there was "no underlying crime" - telling everyone Plame is/was an agent is not illegal. Well, Libby took an OATH. Members of the bar understand the importance of TRUTHFULNESS when speaking under oath. Lying to Congress is a crime (at least during Democratic administrations).

At common law, there is no obligation to say anything -- even to tell the truth -- to police officers

How is this relevant? Under common law Libby had no obligation to say anything, but he did speak, and he lied, and he was found guilty, and he pissed all over the Constitution, and people who think that Dick Cheney is a decent man cheered, and the vast majority of the planet, those with morals, those who understand the rule of law, who believe that when they take an oath that what they speak MUST be the truth, those who believe that there must be consequences for those who purposely lie to Congress, those people were rightfully aghast when the President commuted Libby's sentence. You, Toral, are not amongst those people and your situational ethics you employ certainly disqualify you from telling us who is worthy and who is not.
 
50Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 14:03
Re #48: The ability to pardon is one of the few powers without a check on it. I think a Constitutional amendment would be needed to change it, but I don't agree that it should happen. There were some ideas kicked around during Clinton's Pardon-gate about limiting the pardons so that the President couldn't pardon the last six months of his term, or whatever, but that strikes me as being to unrealistic to work, and putting a check on an unchecked power.

The ability to pardon is usually reserved for sentences that are simply far and above fair. But Libby's sentence was in-line with the federal sentencing guidelines. If, indeed, Libby was guilty then any sentence within the range of guidelines was a fair one, IMO.
 
51SeattleZen on Vashon
ID: 224141222
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 14:08
Here is a column from a conservative whom I agree with: I could accept Bush's opinion that Libby's sentence was "excessive" if Bush used this power with consistency and commuted many, many more excessive sentences. Cold day in Hell before that happens.

OK. I'M GLAD President Bush commuted the 30-month prison sentence of Scooter Libby, the former top aide to Vice President Dick Cheney. My complaint is that Bush did not commute other sentences for individuals serving "excessive" time under the federal mandatory-minimum sentencing laws.
 
52Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 14:17
Good point.

Unfortunately, I think one problem from all this will be even tighter restrictions on judges regarding sentencing.

BTW, let's keep up the drumbeat here: Paris Hilton did more jail time than Scooter Libby.
 
53walk
ID: 75112114
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 14:18
Agreed, PD regarding the Brooks editorial. It's just fascinating to read that point of view...Our country aint gonna get fixed if we continue to have such divisive thoughts and feelings. I cannot see how one can defend Libby's conviction here, but alas, there's lots who do. "If we're at war, we're shooting ourselves in the foot if we go against our leaders."

- walk
 
54Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 16:10
Bush statement

"Duck!"
 
55nerveclinic
ID: 38614316
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 17:14


Toral's article from Slate

What's the matter with that? Two words: Bill Clinton. No fair-minded person can deny that the previous president committed perjury about Monica Lewinsky while serving in the Oval Office. The country knew it, and it let him get away with it. Does that mean no government official should ever again be prosecuted for perjury? Of course not. But it does mean Walton should have wondered whether he was imposing a double standard in treating Libby more harshly because Libby worked in the White House. Is it really fair to treat White House aides more harshly than presidents?

Slate is comparing this to... did you do an intern in the oval office. No one's F'ing business.

How can Slate compare this to someone who outed a CIA agent because her husband exposed the lies about the Iraq war...before we invaded.

Plame was stopping the Bush crony money and had to be stopped. Your comparing a lie about a BJ with a lie that has cost this country thousands of lives, Iraqis 100,000's of lives and made billions for Bush/Cheny's friends?

Screw Slate, they got this wrong.

Pancho After all, Scooter was Marc Rich's lawyer, Clinton's most famous pardon.

This is a great comment Pancho

From those of us who are truly independent...don't use Clinton as the excuse..they are all thieves, they are all working together. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Argue the merits of this case on it's own, what does it have to do with Clinton's BJ lies? Thats a smoke screen and this was far more egregious anyway.

Toral The penalty for President Clinton would have been removal from office.

Please what a joke, it never should have been an issue, because the questions weren't the government's business...unless you are an orthodox Christian or Muslim. France had a good laugh.

Your comparing a BJ lie, with an act used to punish someone who tried to stop us from going to a war over lies...what are your values Mr. Christian? Dear Prudence.

You should move to the middle east Toral, your precious family values would fit in well.

walk think at the end of the day, a lot of the reactions are based on whether the reactee believes that a crime was committed in the first place: that the white house intentionally fcuked over Wilson & Plame cos they fcuked over the white house who fcuked over the country. I find it hard to believe that one does not believe these fcuk-over's happened.

Right, now compare this to Clinton's BJ lie...I must say this sums it up perfectly.

And Gonzalez fired all the prosecutors in mid term because that's just what presidents do. Swamp land in Florida anyone???

Toral I have the strong opinion that most of your fellow Democrats and liberals see nothing wrong with lying under oath about an extra- marital affair, nor with the affairs themselves.

Smoke screen alert!!!!!!!!!

Well I am not a Dem nor a liberal but I will say it's not the government's business what happens in a husband, wives, mistresses bedroom.

Why was Clinton even asked the question? How does it compare to outing a classified government CIA agent to retaliate for the damage caused in the "let's make money for Haliburton" effort.

You must be tired from all these cart wheels you're doing Toral.

Can you and Slate argue the case on it's merit's? Without bringing up a totally unrelated case that involved a completely different level of deception?

I only made it to post 30 it's getting late here...



 
56nerveclinic
ID: 38618316
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 17:18

I'm telling you Toral, your pious anti Clinton extra marital affair comments wouldn't fly even in Dubai, you'd have to sell them in Saudi Arabia, I think you might be content there...oh wait, they won't let you drink.

 
57Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 19:49
I love walk 53 :
Our country aint gonna get fixed if we continue to have such divisive thoughts and feelings.
Read the whole quote. In walk's view society can't survive if people who disagree with him are allowed to speak. Or maybe even to live.
 
58SeattleZen on Vashon
ID: 224141222
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 20:15
That was his summation of Brooks' argument. Come on, Toral, try to keep up.
 
59Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 20:17
URGENT: Please someone give me Fred's phone number.

Toral
 
60Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 20:24
49 Seattle Zen I am going to respond to you once more.Just to remind you that some people recognize facts, and can do so even when political times look bleak.

Bush declassified Plame's status as a CIA operative

The relevant question is whether Ms Plame -- Plame -- Valerie Plame -- was a covert operative. The prosecution took no position on that issue.


Members of the bar understand the importance of TRUTHFULNESS when speaking under oath.

Well what happened to you? Were you sneaking around the side of the building toking up when the mass oath was taken?

I have known you for many years. I respect your intentions, but I regret to say that I don't buy it. My guess is that you lie to the Court more times in one week that Scooter Libby has lied ever in his life. (And I don't even like Scooter Libby.)

I gave the liberals one last chance to be honest. Yoy F*cked it up royally.

I am leaving the league. I will never play in a league with you again.

BTW -- this departure is no attempt to rob you of your rightful glory for winning this league this year (as you are on the way to do). You deserve your win this year, and I congratulate you for it.

Toral


 
61walk
ID: 2530286
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 20:50
Wow.
 
62walk
ID: 2530286
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 20:58
No SZ, that was not what I thought Brooks was trying to say, but my observations about how partisan and divisive politics have become...so much so, that in this example, there's a good 30% or so that believe Libby and then Bush did the right thing. I was paraphrasing Obama's comment on the partial birth pardon. Regarding Toral's interpretation, it's inaccurate and quite an inference.

- walk
 
63 Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 21:07
This isn't a snap decision. I made the same call a few weeks ago and was talked out of it by a fellow gurupie.

walk -- do me one little last favour, please? Just e-mail me Fred's phone # right away-- I can't find it. I would like to notify him personally, as he will need to look for replacement managers. I would like to notify him personally so I can wash my hands of this league forever.

Toral
 
64walk
ID: 2530286
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 21:09
Hi, I am not in the league to which you refer, and I don't have Fred's phone #. Sorry.

- walk
 
65Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 21:20
Very consistent: straight out lying ("I don't have Fred's phone #") to the end, without shame or remorse.

Toral
 
66Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 21:32
I'll consider myself notified.
 
67 Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 21:37
Now we're getting somewhere.

Please send me your phone # so I can talk to you personally about this.

It won't take long, I assure, you.

Toral
 
68Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 21:44
With my little girl asleep (just spent the last 45 minutes getting her down, what with all the fireworks) I can't take any calls right now.

But I should be around all day tomorrow. Home number is 570-895-4101.


Walk: Are you in the area this week, by any chance?
 
69SeattleZen on Vashon
ID: 224141222
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 22:02
Nice try, lots of bombast - change the subject, ad hominem attack rather than answer, draw attention to your grand exit... blah, blah, blah.

You know, you don't have to be Freud to figure out that people often are guilty of the very things they accuse of others.

Toral is being awfully intellectually dishonest. Just come out and say that he is a patriot for lying under oath. He was a patriot for trying to confuse the investigators, that it was okay to lie under oath when special prosecutors are obviously trying to embarrass and damage the Executive.

My guess is that you lie to the Court more times in one week that Scooter Libby has lied ever in his life.

You are welcome to guess, but I'll give you a hint, you are wrong. I don't believe that you really think that my insignificant offerings to the judges in Potunk, WA are in any way as important as Congressional investigations, I think you are just trying to change the subject. The entire nation was waiting for Scooter's answers to the Congressional inquiry. Choosing to lie was immoral no matter how much you try to avoid it, no matter how ardently you try to change the subject.

The nation wanted to know who ordered Scooter to attack Joe Wilson through the press. The nation does not care that you are leaving the baseball league. The nation spoke through a jury when it found Libby guilty. A long, sordid history of entitlement, executive exceptionalism and knavery reared its ugly head when W commuted his sentence. Anyone who cheered debased themselves. Deal with that fact.

And I haven't won anything, the season is long.
 
70walk
ID: 2530286
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 22:08
Hey PD. No. I'll be in the Poconos in late August though. Happy 4th!

- walk
 
71Toral
ID: 575542418
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 22:11
68 PermDude Sorry I couldn't talk to you personally about it. But I've said what needed be to be said in the main baseball thread.

tx for everything.

Toral
 
72Jag
ID: 3064839
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 00:31
Selective outrage or selective amnesia. Yes, Clinton may have pardon a few for legitimate reasons, but out of the over 140 pardons, including 11 terrorists to garner Puerto Rican votes, and over 30 commuted sentences, most were politically based. Libby was charged for obstruction of justice and perjury for a witch hunt aimed at Dick Cheney, because Libby said he couldn't remember. Well, we all know now that Cheney had nothing to do with the outing of the Liberal Plame, so unless he was covering for Armitage, which no ones believes, the charges were trumped up.

The Plame fiasco show that Liberals can't function in a Moderate or Conservative office and like the AGs, all Liberals must be removed when a Republican administration takes over, their fanaticism to Liberalism rivals Al Queda.
 
73Perm Dude
ID: 2164428
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 00:35
Bush might have wiped out the probation as well.
 
74Toral
ID: 575542418
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 00:42
Hopefully there will be a full pardon. The left streetfighters know nothing of justice, feel no compassion, show no mercy. The rational response to that is to go all the way, and pardon.

And I bet he will be pardoned.

Toral
 
75SeattleZen on Vashon
ID: 224141222
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 01:22
 
77Boxman
ID: 571114225
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 06:01
Zen, the fact that you would try to politicize this issue is really just sad and pathetic. Do we really need to rehash the Clinton pardons to show you just how wrong you are?
 
78walk
ID: 2530286
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 08:37
Go ahead and rehash all of the Clinton pardons. They are irrelevant. So, two wrongs make a right? That's the best you can do with rehashing Clinton's arguments. Or, you could take the deranged Toral view and just say that liberals are the new torture-porn and want to ship Libby off to some eastern european prison for alternative interrogation (naaa, there's no such thing as that...).

Look, it's simple, Libby was a high level loyal aide to Cheney. Either push commuted Libby to shut him up over telling all about the false run-up of intel to the Iraqi war or he commuted him cos he was wrongly convicted. However, Bush said it was somewhere in the middle, that Libby was wrong, should have been convicted, but that the sentence was too harsh. Apparently, he deliberated with his inner circle about this commutation decision for a while, but they overlooked the potential huge legal consequences (dolts):

Bush Rationale on Libby Commutation Stirs Legal Debate
 
79walk
ID: 2530286
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 08:40
Bush the compassionate does not make sense cos he let folks get executed who were mentally retarded with the cog dev't of a 7-year old. No underlying crime is twisted cos Libby obstructed the prosecution's ability to establish an underlying crime. Clinton pardoning many, including Marc Rich (Scooter's legal client, in another plot twist), is irrelevant cos they were not white house insiders potentially helping to cover up a false war (just a minor little glitch in our administration). What's the real defense here? "We won."

- walk
 
80walk
ID: 2530286
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 17:06
Libby vs. Rita
 
81Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 17:37
the fact that you would try to politicize this issue is really just sad and pathetic.

?

Seattle Zen is responsible for this being a "political issue"?
 
82nerveclinic
ID: 1066417
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:06

Boxman Do we really need to rehash the Clinton pardons to show you just how wrong you are?

Go ahead and rehash. Above all Clinton shouldn't of pardoned Rich. It was wrong. It was political and financial prostitution. What's your point?

Clinton was wrong.

Bush is wrong.

Why do you think that because Clinton was a whore, Bush can somehow do this with a free pass.

What's your point?

Do you think there are many people here, liberal or otherwise who will defend the pardon of Rich?



 
83nerveclinic
ID: 769417
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:09


Toral

Classy way to exit.

Says a lot.




 
84Jag
ID: 3064839
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:11
There is a big difference, Libby was charged for obstruction of justice for a crime that was never committed. He said he couldn't remember and now it looks like he may have been telling the truth, since there was no reason to lie.
 
85Perm Dude
ID: 763249
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:18
I'm going to try this one more time, Jag: The fact of an underlying crime (or not) does not lessen the criminality of an obstruction of justice or perjury charge. In fact, lying about his actions makes it more difficult to prove whether an underlying crime occured (which is why obstruction is a separate crime itself).

A jury convicted Libby on multiple counts. Maybe there was "no reason to lie" since his bosses had his back, but he did.

And your statement: There is a big difference, Libby was charged for obstruction of justice for a crime that was never committed makes no sense, even on its face. There was no underlying crime in Clinton's case. So what it the difference, to you?
 
86Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:26
I'm going to try this one more time, Jag: The fact of an underlying crime (or not) does not lessen the criminality of an obstruction of justice or perjury charge

You can go over it all you want, PD; the fact is that a lot of people from all sides for a long time before Scooter Libby was questioned have believed that unless there is an underlying crime, there should not be any such thing as an obstruction of justice charge. It a legitimate argument; your ignoring that doesn't make it less so. Perjury is a different matter

There was no underlying crime in Clinton's case. So what it the difference, to you?

Right, and Clinton wasn't charged with obstruction of justice; he perjured himself by lying, under oath, while trying to defend charges of sexual harrasment. His liasons with other employees were obviously very relevant to that case.
 
87Jag
ID: 3064839
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:33
Libby said he couldn't remember, Clinton said boldly, "I DID NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN." with a heart wrenching fervor that would bring a tear to your eye. I don't care about Clinton getting a BJ, I believe he did 100s of things worse and that was the only episode where DNA could be produced, but I find it hypocritical the same liberals, who are so up in arms about the Libby pardon, took up for Clinton.


Is this all the Democrats can do? Create a scandal, form a hearing and then hope a Republican can't remember every detail exactly. I am all for check and balances, but this is a joke.
 
88nerveclinic
ID: 17636417
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:36


Libby was charged for obstruction of justice for a crime that was never committed.

Are you sure?

Martha Stewart was never "charged" with insider trading. She went to jail for perjury.

It's pretty clear to anyone who has examined the case that she did have insider information, and likely broke the law. The prosecutor knew he had her on perjury though and decided to just take the easy route on that conviction. Right MBJ?

The insider trading case would have been more difficult but it was there. Clearly she sold her stock because her friend, the owner of the company, told her about an impending negative FDA ruling.

So just because she was only charged with perjury, does that mean she didn't "commit the original crime"?

If you examine this case, it's very likely it was a similar decision.

Perhaps to spare the President, Vice President and Mr. Rove extreme embarrassment in the eyes of the world and perhaps even impeachment.

Politics.



 
89Perm Dude
ID: 763249
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 18:48
Jag, someone who says they don't remember but actually do are committing a crime when they say so under oath.

As for Clinton, well, this isn't about him, but surely you understand the difference between saying something under oath and not? Clinton committed perjury (not obstruction) but not when he said that (because he wasn't under oath).

Finally, you must remember that this "scandal" wasn't a result of Democrats. The prosecutor (Fitzgerald, a career Republican) was appointed by James Comey (a Bush political appointee) to investigate the Plame leak (remember? No?) The Trial judge, Reggie Walton, is a Bush political appointee who (several times) described the evidence against Libby as "overwhelming." The jury (selected, in part, by Libby's own lawyers, found him guilty on several counts.

Where, exactly, are the Democrats in all this?
 
90Jag
ID: 3064839
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 19:04
Steve Bowers says it best:

Here's the Scooter Libby indictment in a nutshell: A washed up ambassador turned weaselly liar wanted to see Karl Rove "perp walked" for an actual alleged crime. So said weaselly liar attempts to create an actual alleged crime by outing his own wife in the New York Times in an op ed piece where he blames others for outing his wife, who couldn't actually be outed anyway because she wasn't a covert CIA agent. With the help of his equally weaselly little buddy, the "senior" senator from New York, Chuckie Schumer, he indignantly demands an investigation into the non-outing of his wife who couldn't be outed because she wasn't undercover. In the end, the special prosecutor investigation demanded by Chuckie the weasel as a favor to Joe the weaselly liar, fails to uncover a crime because no crime was committed and, hence, fails to result in Karl doing the frog walk. Instead, the investigation into the alleged non-crime snares a smaller but equally hated fish for allegedly lying about a non-crime that was never committed. And there you have the indictment of Scooter Libby.

The complete article
 
91sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 19:07
if it werent for the fact that there are some people who believe that tripe, it would make for great comedy.
 
92sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 19:21
Lets just stick to a few, pertinent facts Jag...shall we?

Fact Nr 1: Perjury, is a crime.
Fact Nr2: Libby, was indicted, tried and convicted...on the Charge that he committed Perjury.
Fact Nr3: Whether there was, or was not; an "under lying crime", is totally and completely irrelevant. (Yes, that statement is redundant, but such seems necessary with you.)

Scenario:

I have sex, with the local Chief of Polices 19 yr old daughter. My neighbor, is a solitary fella, for whom nobody gives a damn. This girl gets scared, and tells her Daddy that my neighbor raped her. This solitary guy, has no alibi. I know he is innocent, and I know he cannot begin to prove/demonstrate such innocence. So I testify that he was with me on the night in question, and he is then acquitted. (A rightful outcome.) It is later learned, that he was not with me, and I am charged with Perjury.

Should I simply walk away scott free?
 
93Perm Dude
ID: 763249
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 19:27
Unbelievable how many lies there are in that one paragraph. Ironically, it is about Libby's lies.

Let's just lop off the last one, shall we:

And there you have the indictment of Scooter Libby.

Actually, Libby was not only indicted but convicted. Someone who can't even get that right doesn't deserved to be heard further.
 
94Jag
ID: 3064839
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 19:39
I just wonder what scandal the Cotton Mathers of Congress will come up with next.
 
95sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 20:25
I, and several others I'm sure, just wonder when/if you will post something which actually makes any sense.
 
96Perm Dude
ID: 763249
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 20:49
Mitt Romney, of course, says, well, what do you want him to say?
 
97walk
ID: 2530286
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 22:16
The Republican View

The standards and referents used by folks to assess the extent to which Bush was right or wrong clearly varies. In this editorial, a view is made that is similar to what Jag is saying: Clinton did worse, himself, and Clinton pardoned worse, so what Bush did was okay. To me, besides those assumptions being debatable (understatement, since lying and obstruction in relation to a false war seems a tad bigger, and not "similarly situated"), the argument here just seems immature. "He did it, so it's okay that we do it. The only scandals are against (us) Republicans." Just boggles my mind. I posted the link cos it's more mind boggling that we have views like this in our country are who published.

- walk
 
98walk
ID: 2530286
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 22:20
Novak's Piece

This guy has nerve since he was one of the first to publicly disclose Plame's identity, and as such, his view is noteworthy.

- walk
 
99Jag
ID: 3064839
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 22:46
I will say it again is this all the Democrats can do, call for a hearing and hope they can catch a Republican with a memory lapse. I know it would work on me, I can barely remember what happen 5 minutes ago. Can someone please tell me a useful bill or idea coming from the Congress since the Democrats took power.
 
100Jag
ID: 3064839
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 23:02
Interesting article Walk. Fitzgerald and Armitage are 2 POS. They ruined one man's carrer and tried to take down the Whitehouse, knowing the truth, that there was no crime. I don't care what party these 2 clowns belong to, they are trash.
 
101sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Jul 04, 2007, 23:30
You do seem to have a memory problem Jag. Libby was CONVICTED of committing a crime. Thus, to say, "there was no crime", is as usual per your postings...factually inaccurate.
 
102Jag
ID: 3064839
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 00:34
Sarge, you must have a reading deficiency, Fitzgerald and Armitage could have came clean at the beginning of the hearing, they wasted money and resources for absolutely no reason, unless their ultimate goal was to destroy someone's career.
 
103Perm Dude
ID: 763249
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 01:24
They were charged by the President with tracking down the leak (don't you remember all those press conferences, in which Bush stated he will track down the source of "any leak coming from his Administration" and bring that person to justice?)

So, they found Scooter Libby lying about his role in the leak they were investigating. And that obstruction was well within the scope of their charged duties.

Give it up on the revisionist history. Their ultimate goal was derailed by Libby lies. So Scooter gets to take one for the team.
 
104 Nick
ID: 2861451
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 02:14
Truly fascinating to see how the conservatives regard rule of law. How many of them wanted a strict constructionist on the Supreme Court? And how many of them are now happy to destroy the law in the name of saving Rove, Bush, Cheney.. and the wretched Libby? And before the conservatives start yelling - just tell me exactly what any of those four men have achieved to benefit the US in the last 6 some years. Even if you can't stand the idea that law is the guarantor of civil society and civil rights, could you at least come up with something better than the hooting and hollering which passes for political debate?
 
105walk
ID: 365257
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 08:52
July 5, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
The Lying Game
By MICHAEL KINSLEY
Seattle


WHEN the Republicans in Congress impeached President Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky affair, they insisted that it wasn’t about sex, it was about lying. Of course that wasn’t true. Even at the height of their power-mad self-delusions (when Newt Gingrich was conducting his own affair with an aide while prosecuting the president), Republicans realized that to make lying an impeachable offense was opening a door no politician should eagerly walk through.

Of course it was really about sex. Nevertheless, those of us who thought impeachment was an outrageous abuse of power by the Republicans had to accept that Mr. Clinton had, clearly, lied. And our argument was this: Mr. Clinton made a mistake. He should not have lied. But he lied in answer to questions he should not have been asked. He should not have been put in a position where he had to choose: he could lie under oath, and be impeached or worse, or he could tell the truth, and embarrass himself and his family, and probably still be impeached or worse.

In short, he was caught in a “perjury trap.” Bill Clinton chose wrong — it all came out anyway — and he defeated impeachment, though you wouldn’t say he got away scot-free.

On Tuesday, President Bush commuted the sentence of I. Lewis Libby Jr., Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff, who was convicted of lying to investigators about the C.I.A. leak case. Mr. Libby will escape prison, but he won’t get away scot-free either. He faces a fine of $250,000 and two years of probation, and if he was thinking of cashing in big on K Street like so many of his administration colleagues, he had better think again.

Mr. Libby’s critics are not the people who criticized Mr. Clinton. And his defenders are not Mr. Clinton’s defenders. But the scripts are similar. The Libbyites believe that their man is being railroaded and shouldn’t have been prosecuted, let alone convicted, for his involvement in a campaign of leaks intended to discredit a critic of the administration, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Mr. Libby’s critics respond that this isn’t about leaking, it’s about lying.

But of course this really is about leaking. It’s the nefarious, though inept, campaign to sully Mr. Wilson that outrages critics of the administration. True, Mr. Libby was not the source for Robert Novak, whose column identifying Mr. Wilson’s wife as a C.I.A. operative started the whole business. And Mr. Libby’s most prominent leakee, Judith Miller, the former New York Times reporter who went to jail rather than reveal a source, didn’t actually write about the case. But Mr. Libby was part of the cabal that was conspiring to discredit Mr. Wilson and, more generally, to convince people that Iraq was strewn with nuclear weapons.

So when Mr. Libby was questioned by federal investigators pursuing the leaks, he too was caught in a perjury trap. He could either tell the truth, thereby implicating colleagues and very possibly himself, in leaking classified security information (the identity of Mr. Wilson’s wife), or he could lie. In either case he would be breaking the law or admitting to having done so, and in either case he could have gone to prison. Mr. Libby, like Mr. Clinton, made the wrong choice.

There is nothing wrong with a perjury trap, as long as both sides of the pincer are legitimate. The abuse comes when prosecutors induce a crime (lying under oath) by exploiting an action that is not a crime. The law about “outing” C.I.A. operatives is apparently vague enough that it isn’t clear whether Mr. Libby violated it. But let’s leave that aside. Exposing one of your country’s intelligence officers is a bad thing to do. If it isn’t against the law, it ought to be, right? Well, this is where the press comes in. At first many in the press supported appointing a special prosecutor to investigate.

The crime, if there was one, was leaking government secrets to journalists. If you were investigating that crime, where would you start? Yes, of course, by questioning journalists. The government leakers, if you found them, would be protected by the Fifth Amendment. You would need more and different evidence, and only journalists had it.

The special prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, followed this commonsense logic straight into a First Amendment buzz saw. News organizations that insisted on the need to get to the bottom of the leak also insisted that no journalist should have to supply information to this investigation.

The leaks that The Times and other papers defended so ardently were not laboratory examples of press freedom at work. Quite the opposite: they were part of the nefarious campaign by the vice president’s office to discredit Mr. Wilson — itself part of the larger plot to convince the world that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which was of course part of the plot to get us into the war in the first place. And it worked.

It takes two to leak. How can it be fair that one party to the leak doesn’t even have to testify about it, because leaks are so vital to the First Amendment, while the other party might go to prison for it? And if that is unfair, how is a perjury trap fair when it forces a leaker to choose between going to prison for the leak and going to prison for lying?

So as much as I dislike the war in Iraq, as much as I dislike President Bush, as much as I expect that I would dislike Mr. Libby if I ever met him, I feel that he should not have had to face a perjury trap: the choice between prison for lying, or prison for his role in a set of transactions that the press regards as not merely O.K. but sacrosanct. In fact, if journalists had a more reasonable view about this, the reporters whom Mr. Libby tried to peddle this story to would have said, “Look, outing C.I.A. agents is bad and we are not going to help you do it anonymously.” I bet that today, commuted sentence and all, Mr. Libby wishes they had done just that.

Michael Kinsley is a columnist for Time magazine.
 
106walk
ID: 365257
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 08:55
Nick! Nice one.

Interesting view from Kinsley. I don't know if I agree, but I am trying to find other viewpoints. However, I side with what Nick said and me and PD and Sarge33rd have repeatedly said. I typically side with myself.

- walk
 
107Jag
ID: 3064839
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 08:57
Did any of you bother to read Walk's link? Fitxgerald and Armitage, both knew before the hearing even started, who the leaker was. The entire hearing was a charade.
 
108walk
ID: 365257
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 09:02
Aaaaaah, but that does not make the hearing a charade, Jag. While Fitz could have and should have gone after Armitrage, he needed to interview all witnesses. He did so with Libby who lied under oath and obstructed justice..perhaps interfering with Fitz's efforts to make a case against Armitrage. I dunno. However, I think you are reducing this to a very simple scenario that ignores the fact that there are many players complicit in this cover-up.

- walk
 
109Jag
ID: 3064839
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 09:20
It is not complicated, Fitz wanted to be a gloryhound.

Fitxgerald must have gone to same legal school as Nifong.
 
110Tree
ID: 3533298
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 09:22
Jag - just wondering...

i've noticed that the majority of threads you've started in your time here happen during a 10-day or so window in the spring, and then, again, once July hits. of the 26 threads you've started, 20 were started in March or July.

all off these co-incide pretty well with high school vacations and breaks...
 
111walk
ID: 365257
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 09:28
It is very easy and convenient to blame on the prosecutor, Jag. In that case, every time there is a defendant you side with, one could make the same argument. Fitz was appointed by the repub's...after that, blaming him is simply a childish stance that largely avoids responsibility, like the way a kids says: "he/she started it." You could be right, it could be cos Fitz was overly aggressive, but I think that's a cop-out argument, and just really lame. These guys are the good guys, these prosecutors...they would rake in millions being corp attorneys but they do this job instead. There aint no glory for Fitzgerald. What a no-win situation, and critics pile it on. Do you really think, given everything you know about how incompetent, crony-ish and corrupt the war and the Bush admin has been, that this Libby thing is more about Fitzgerald than about the Bush admin? Seems ludicrous.

- walk
 
112Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 09:38
Fitzgerald and Armitage could have came clean at the beginning of the hearing

Come clean? What does that mean?
 
113Jag
ID: 3064839
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 09:50
Why is this so hard for the Liberals to understand? Fitzgerald knew before the hearing started who leaked the info. It is like having a murder trial, when you know the defendant is innocent. But that is not the point is it? Liberals will compromise any value, scratch that, Liberals have no values, when it comes to stringing up Republicans, they will fight to the death for a terrorist or triple axe murderer, but those nasty Republicans have to be dealt with by any means possible.
 
114Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 09:55
it could be cos Fitz was overly aggressive

Walk I know you're just being polite in offering that but I really don't see any legitimate argument for it at all, aside possibly from the sentence, which is at worst a debatable point.

But Jag's problem is that Fitzgerald persued the case at all, not just with the sentence he recommended.

Its easy for the simultaneously ignorant and intellectually dishonest to chalk it up to a vane persuit of glory or publicity.

Whatever gets you through the day.
 
115Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 10:20
It is like having a murder trial, when you know the defendant is innocent.

Does anyone have any idea what Jag is talking about? Is it that he believes it was Libby who was investigated as the leaker of Plame's name?
 
116sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 10:29
---still awaiting Jag response to the scenario I presented in post 92.
 
117Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 10:37
The persuit of this case stands as ligitimate on its own with no analagous scenerio necessary.

Jag apparently just isn't concerned with facts. At least not any that might taint his fantasies.

No different from the norm.
 
118sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 10:40
agreed MITH. I was just curious...if its OK for a Rep to commit perjury in Jags opinion...what if the poerson committing the perjury is a Liberal Dem? Is it still "OK"?
 
119walk
ID: 365257
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 10:54
Yes, MITH, #114....trying to be polite, and I agree with what you are saying.

- walk
 
120Jag
ID: 3064839
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 11:44
This shows the hypocrisy of the posters here, I have seen more talk about rights and freedom than any other forum, yet because you don't like a person politics you believe he should be tried by a prosecutor that knows he is innocent for the sole purpose of either embarrassing him and his employer, have them misspeak or not remember the exact details correctly in order to file perjury charges or to do a Nifong and garner attention.
 
121walk
ID: 75112114
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 11:49
I don't get the "tried by a prosecutor who knows he is innocent" part. Where did you get this?

- walk
 
122Perm Dude
ID: 3164859
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 11:58
Libby was tried after lying. How would Fitzgerald "know he was innocent?"

Jag is confused (probably intentionally). He seems to believe if someone else confessed to leaking Plame's operative status that Libby can lie about what he knew.

I know you probably aren't Christian or Jewish, Jag, but many of us believe, from the Ten Commandments, that lying is wrong. Regardless of anything else, lying is wrong.
 
123Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 12:00
you believe he should be tried by a prosecutor that knows he is innocent

Libby was guilty of the charges he was tried for. He did lie. He did obstruct. He repeatedly claimed that he learned Plame's name from Tim Russert, which the timeline shows is impossible, and which Russert himself denied under oath. You might feel that there is every reason to believe Libby honestly remembers it that way. Personally, I find it hard to believe that Libby would recall a specific conversation he had with Russert, the date on which it occurred and the very reason he called Russert - and also somehow confuse it with a discussion he had with Cheney weeks earlier in which he learned of Plame's identity.
 
124Perm Dude
ID: 3164859
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 12:26
A little background on Bush's record on clemency.

His disdain for the review of clemency petitions matches Romney's. Yet there seemed to be no problem, in the end, spending time to review and wipe out most of the punishment for a white collar criminal like Libby, who obstructed the investigation into Bush's own administration.
 
125sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 12:31
and that PD, is called "taking care of your own". Nothing new for this administration.
 
126 Nick
ID: 3965651
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 14:36
Whatever side of the divide we are on, we ought to stop the name-calling, the throwing of accusations, and the emotional appeals to partisan prejudice. At the end of the day, Libby had his day in court, and was tried and convicted - by his fellow Americans. It is not the case that Fitzgerald made that decision, nor did the judge. The jury gave its verdict. Before we rush to accuse Fitzgerald or Walton, let's remember that they do not actually decide guilty or not guilty. The evidence was convincing enough for a jury chosen to avoid bias. What right do we have to accuse them, implicitly, of being dishonest? Fitzgerald was the prosecutor, and did his job. Prosecutors prosecute the case on its merits, rather than making cases for the defense. Walton's sentence was within the guidelines for sentencing, and not excessive. Let's try and remember those facts among the hype and the yells from either side.
 
127Perm Dude
ID: 3164859
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 20:20
Good points, Nick.

Rich Lowry, with whom I rarely share agreement, has an interesting point which actually caused him to change his mind on Libby. From The Corner (and cut-n-pasted in full):

At first I thought that commuting Libby's sentence was a reasonable compromise—keeping him from serving prison time, but letting the jury verdict stand. But now I don't think it makes any sense. There's an incoherence at the heart of the administration's case. It says that Libby's sentence was excessive. But technically, it's not. It's only excessive if you think it was a politicized prosecution and never should have happened in the first place. But if you believe that, then Libby deserves an outright pardon. The administration's middle ground can't hold. A pardon would have been better, and more defensible.

One other point: Bush commuted Libby's sentence even while Libby was pursuing all his legal options. At best, Bush jumped the gun by commuting the sentence while appeals were pending which had the possibility of cutting back or eliminating the sentence or ordering a new trial.

Finally, there has been a lot of hay made on the Right about Clinton's pardons, which I'm not going to defend here, except to say that Rich and the other pardons really aren't the best comparison to Libby. A far better comparison is Susan McDougal, who went to prison for perjury during the Whitewater investigations (which ended without any underlying crime being found). Anyone who believes Libby should be pardoned should also say whether Clinton should have pardoned McDougal (he didn't). Reader letter to Andrew Sullivan
 
128Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 20:31
Clinton didn't pardon McDougal? I thought he did. What do I remember then, I commuted sentence?
 
129Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 20:34
.....should also say whether Clinton should have pardoned McDougal (he didn't



Clinton pardoned McDougal
 
130Perm Dude
ID: 3164859
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 20:36
Damn--just checked and he did, in the end. I actually mixed up her and Marc Rich (another Clinton crony).

Let's see here, McDougal spent 18 months in jail (including, I believe, a couple of months in solitary civil contempt of court for refusing to talk).

I guess I'll have to back up and say that they are still very similar, but McDougal did time--a year and a half, after all her legal options were exhausted and Libby apparently won't serve a single day.

Still, much more similar of a comparison, IMO.
 
131Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 20:40
Well the only problem I have with the McDougal thing is that Clinton wasn't man enough to commute her sentence, made her serve the 18 months, essentially for protecting him, then gave a weasel pardon on his last day in office.

At least Bush took the inevitable political heat.

I hate all pardons of guilty persons equally.
 
132Perm Dude
ID: 3164859
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 20:43
Good point. She did, after all, serve some time. He could have just said "enough's enough."

Ever had any of your cases pardoned/commuted?
 
133Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 21:06
By the governor? No. I've had judges really pizz me (and the jury) though.
 
134Perm Dude
ID: 13652810
Sun, Jul 08, 2007, 12:12
Some interesting facts:

Libby's lawyers never requested the commutation

Reaction among Republicans and Independents were harsher than expected. Probably as a result of how Bush framed his commutation, I'm guessing. He's pissing off a lot of people with this half-assed decision. Does Bush have a base anymore?
 
135Perm Dude
ID: 366271218
Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 19:47
Nothing to see here. Old news. Moving on!
 
136Tree
ID: 566231220
Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 21:26
so, when Bush finally goes to jail, will anyone pardon him?
 
137Perm Dude
ID: 366271218
Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 22:03
Impeachment is not pardonable, I believe. (I believe treason is also not pardonable).
 
138Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 22:13


If Bush was just impeached, he wouldn't go to jail; he'd have to be convicted of something first, you know.
 
139Perm Dude
ID: 366271218
Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 22:21
You're right, MBJ. I guess I was thinking he'd be impeached because of (or while being convicted of) a crime. But it doesn't have to be the case.
 
140biliruben
ID: 579411512
Mon, Nov 05, 2007, 15:00
Maniacal Fervor in First Degree.

Sentencing: 20 years of reading history books and writing book reports about the most egregious leadership errors throughout history, and how he might have avoided repeating them with a bit of original thought and intellectual curiosity.
 
150 Vdcgsvgi
      ID: 532403116
      Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 18:40
comment4,
 
151 Ddusgkfw
      ID: 52233117
      Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 19:03
comment3,
 
152 Ibmazfyx
      ID: 422243117
      Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 19:24
comment5,
 
153Baldwin
      ID: 122332717
      Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 06:19
What the bot lacks in creativity, it makes up for in chattiness. Someone check that IP and see if it matches Tree's.
 
154Tree
      ID: 61411921
      Wed, Apr 01, 2009, 14:15
oh, hey, shocking, an unprovoked attack from you.

i'm sure as your wife continues to write that book about you, she'll include all the verbal vomit you spew. ::eye roll::
 
155 Pavjrpwf
      ID: 10340210
      Thu, Apr 02, 2009, 12:40
comment6,
 
156 Pavjrpwf
      ID: 29340210
      Thu, Apr 02, 2009, 12:40
comment6,
 
157 Pavjrpwf
      ID: 41343210
      Thu, Apr 02, 2009, 12:43
comment6,
 
158 Nyatpajn
      ID: 16325613
      Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 14:25
comment5,
 
159Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 14:31
perhaps if a mod altered the title of this thread it might not be a bot target?
 
160 Rgieaxse
      ID: 3326614
      Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 15:26
comment3,
 
161Perm Dude
      ID: 23343612
      Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 15:27
Is it the crap or the pardon?