Forum: pol
Page 2936
Subject: Environmentalism and You!


  Posted by: Wilmer Mclean - [276571019] Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 05:33

This week was a volcanic eruption of agitation for me. With the Gore Concerts and the trailing environmental segments on TV news and shows I have had enough!

I want fair talk and even debate. I want the national newsmen and women to respect their journalism creed and tell me the pluses and minuses, the good and the bad.

ABC news had segmentS on the bottle water crisis - bottles ending up in landfills. 'World News' Hits the (Water) Bottle Again - For the second night, ABC targets the bottled water industry's impact on the environment.

And yet, new technology can recycle any hydrocarbon bottles into oil, gas, water and non-hyrdocarbons.

Giant microwave turns plastic back to oil - 26 June 2007

Balance? Reserach? Debate?

According to this pre-plastics-to-oil-and-gas invention site Consider Its Lifecycle: Bottled Water:
The Container Recycling Institute reports that sales of virgin resin PET (polyethylene terephthalate), the plastic most commonly used in water bottles, shot up to 738 million kilograms in 1999, more than double the amount in 1990. Producing 1 kilogram of PET plastic requires 17.5 kilograms of water and results in air emissions of 40 grams of hydrocarbons, 25 grams of sulfur oxides, 18 grams of carbon monoxide, 20 grams of nitrogen oxides, and 2.3 kilograms of carbon dioxide. In terms of water use alone, much more is consumed in making the bottles than will ever go into them.[6]
Well, I am not an expert and is fair-minded, but what is the new equation with the new microwave bottle-to-gas-and-oil transformation?

Also, asking about fair debate, was there any mention that Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. owns his own bottled water company?

Secondly, I happenchanced to witness one of the worst didatic TV shows this year. I saw Ellen DeGeneres with a Greener rushing through a litany of "Earth Saving" products.

Being attuned to fluorescent light bulbs I waited for the "sell."

As expected on my part, the host and knowledgaeble guest under time contstraints failed (neglected) to mention the mercury problem in CFL's - not to mention the ways and certain places to properly dispose of them.

Do you know where you can properly dispose them near you?

I checked the Ellen site and applaud them for their balance after the fact (after editing and taping):

TRADE IN YOUR LIGHT BULBS

Everyone is talking about changing lightbulbs - and it really does make a difference! If every home replaced one bulb with a CFL, it would be equivalent to taking one million cars off the road. (The sell.)

Incandescent light bulbs, which most of us use, burn 80-90% heat, so they are extremely inefficient. Most of the energy in the U.S. comes from coal-fired plants. So when we use inefficient products, we're burning a lot more coal and putting a ton of C02 and toxins like mercury into the environment.

Compact fluorescent lights (CFL's) are 70 - 75% more efficient. A 22 watt CFL has about the same light output as a 100 watt incandescent.

CFLs can cost 3-5 times more upfront, but they last up to 10 times longer, and use 75% less energy, so you'll see a considerable savings on your energy bill - about $36 savings over the life of each bulb.

CFLs actually have trace amounts of mercury in them so you have to dispose of them carefully, but because incandesents are so inefficient., you actually put more mercury into the air by using those because most of our power comes from coal.

We're seeing not only CFLs but LED light technology. As long as you look for the ENERGY STAR labeling you'll know you're in good shape.

...
I prefer LED's.

I have a second home on a lake with a point well under the water line. I am not willing to take the chance to see how many lawyers it takes to break a compact fluorescent light bulb to seep mercury into my drinking water. ;)




So, I ask two important questions for the future responders:

1. Do you want balanced reporting of environmental concerns from network news and major newpapers and magazines?

2. What does environmentalism mean to you, and what are you doing about it?

3. Where is the nearest place from you to properly dispose of CFL's? (How did you find this information?)
 
1Tree
      ID: 18645115
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 06:56
Wilmer - i'm not sure what you're getting at.

regarding lightbulbs, the CFLs, while having small amounts of mercury in them, release less mercury than traditional lightbulbs, as indicated by your bolded paragraph.

CFLs also last much, much, much longer than traditional bulbs, so their impact in landfills is significantly less.

regarding bottled water, and the giant microwave, where exactly are these giant microwaves located to i can rush down there and bring my bottles? seriously though, it's not like this device is on every street corner, and it's certainly not as accessible as the faucet in your kitchen.

while i do drink bottled water from time to time - because, quite frankly, it's not convenient to carry around your own container all the time - for my day-to-day consumption (to work, at work, from work, around the house, etc etc), i use a Nalgene bottle....

i've got several, oh, and they're boy scout approved, to flag-waving Americans everywhere should use them by the boat load. ;o)

every little bit you can do, helps. and, every little bit you don't do, hurts. one of the simple things i do is collect "gray" water from my shower, and that's what i water my plants with. once a week, i put a bucket in the shower, and it catches the water while i shower. for me, the run off from that one shower is enough to water my 4 or 5 house plants.

anyway, i've got to head to work, but tonight i'll provide more links and ideas, as i'm sure others will do all day.

helping to preserve your environment isn't about right or left, democrat or republican, liberal or conservative.

it's about maintaining our planet, and preserving it for future generations.
 
2Boxman
      ID: 251142612
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 11:53
1. Do you want balanced reporting of environmental concerns from network news and major newpapers and magazines?

Well of course. Except that I wouldn't count on the media to do that.

2. What does environmentalism mean to you, and what are you doing about it?

Environmentalism is another buzzword thrown about that the liberal zeitgeist around here will surely chastize me for not bowing down at the alter of their golden cow (Al Gore).

Make it profitable for the mainstream folks to be environmentally friendly and it will take off.

$3 - $4 gas, not our reliance on the Middle East, is what really PO'd the general population and helped spur the recent upward tick in technology like the Prius, the larger mass production of ethanol and other forms of alternate energy. Provide people with an infrastructure that is conducive to an alternate energy lifestyle. I live in suburbia and I've only seen two pumps with ethanol that border the boondocks and are 20 miles+ from my house.

Sell it to the folks like a cost saving measure where they make money from it and incentivize them to make the switch and they will.

3. I don't know and honestly I don't care. I use regular bulbs.

What I'm really interested in is solar technology wherein I've heard about people selling back excess production to the grid. The government should hop on it and put panels on buildings and sell back what they don't use. I think the regular folks should do the same thing but the capital outlays are huge.

I think if the government led the way in this specific instance they could find new technologies or methods that might lower the cost or even create more efficient solar panels.
 
3Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 12:05
Wilmer - Well, I am not an expert and is fair-minded, but what is the new equation with the new microwave bottle-to-gas-and-oil transformation?

Here's the answer to your question.
Among the largest issues besetting bottled water is plastic waste. According to the Container Recycling Institute, in 2002 some 14 billion water bottles were sold in the United States, 90 percent of which were thrown in the trash--even though most of them were made of recyclable PET plastic.

Your microwave would only be used on the 10% of the bottles that get recycled. The people of this planet simply do not understand recycling, a culture change in this realm is of dire importance.
 
4Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 12:17
Make it profitable for the mainstream folks to be environmentally friendly and it will take off.

while not necessarily "profitable", it's certainly cheaper in many cases to be environmentally friendly.

from hybrid vehicles to CFL bulbs to collecting gray water for watering plants and such, it is certainly cost-effective.

here are some fantastic green products, many of which are not just affordable, but actually save you money. i'm not saying THEY'RE all affordable, or even that all of them are practical, but there are certainly plenty on this list that fit your criteria.

Environmentalism is another buzzword thrown about that the liberal zeitgeist around here will surely chastize me for not bowing down at the alter of their golden cow (Al Gore).

Environmentalism long predates the birth of Al Gore. you can trace it back to folks like Henry David Thoreau and John Muir. and Gore was just a teenager when Rachel Carson's Silent Spring was published.

but, as you've shown in other threads, you only care about name-dropping, and not the real issue. Gore might be the 2006-2007 face of environmentalism, but it predates him by a century.

The Sierra Club, The National Park Service, and the Endangered Species Act - all important things in the environmentalist movement, happened long before Gore was in elected office, or even born.

I won't chastise you for not bowing down to Gore. i couldn't give two $hits. but i will chastise you for your ignorance on the topic, and the fact that you feel because Al Gore has been a recent face of it, you think it's ok to casually dismiss it.
 
5boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 12:29
As much as i agree with most you have said here, i take reguards to part about hybrid vehicles being a cost savings, i am not even totally sure they are eviormentally freindly with the batteries haveing to be replaces after so much use.
 
6Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 12:37
i am not even totally sure they are eviormentally freindly with the batteries haveing to be replaces after so much use

that's a myth. for the most part, very few hybrid batteries have had to be replaced, as the cars are designed to prevent heavy drainage, the main cause for replacement.

the only real problems have come from the early, manual transmission Honda Insights. i mean, Honda offers a 10-year warranty on their batteries - that's an indication on AT LEAST how long they are expected to last...
 
7boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 12:46
i did not know they were offering 10 year warranties now, that is good. though cost savings is yet to be shown, espcially for me since i do most of my driving on the highway were the efficienty gained by the batteries drops off. ill stick to just picking fuel effiecnt cars, for now.
 
8holt
      ID: 410511410
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 16:25
going out and buying a new hybrid isn't a very good way to increase the balance of your bank account. I know a lot of people have this fixation on making car payments their whole life, but... anyway.

I've been riding my mountain bike a lot. there are some places I can get to quicker than in a car (shortcuts, and a liberal interpretation of the laws of the road - hehe), and it's good exercise.

solar power could be a great thing. I don't know what it is that makes the manufacturing costs so high, but if it was a realistic option for the masses then that would be great. there should be more effort in this direction.
 
9ChicagoTRS
      ID: 4110481415
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 16:52
Recycling is a joke...in many cases it uses more energy, causes more pollution, and costs more money to recycle a plastic bottle than to create a new one. Transporting, sorting, cleaning, converting, etc...

If there was any value in recycling they would be paying you for you plastic/glass (like aluminum). Recycling is very expensive and is highly subsidized by the government and in most cases is worse for the environment.

Recycling Myths
 
10Jag
      ID: 3064839
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 17:05
Chicago, the majority of the Liberal efforts are self-serving, "look at me I drive a hybrid, I care." If they were serious about helping the environment they would all invest in alternative fuel sources, namely Nuclear and Hydrogen (wind and solar are not efficient). I find saving bath water for plants hilarious.
 
11holt
      ID: 410511410
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 18:18
wind power is great, but as with solar power the start-up cost is a bit of a barrier. the cost of production is still slightly higher than coal and gas, but only by a very small margin.

some info available at wikipedia:
Wind's long-term theoretical potential is much greater than current world energy consumption. The most comprehensive study to date found the potential of wind power on land and near-shore to be 72 TW (~54,000 Mtoe), or over five times the world's current energy use and 40 times the current electricity use.
 
12Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 18:21
But I like raptors.
 
13Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 18:23
If we have a number for the max available wind power I wonder if anyone has found a number for geothermal?
 
14R9
      Leader
      ID: 02624472
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 22:47
Sigh. It's very disappointing to see such an important topic tossed into the Liberal/Conservative trash heap. It is neither a Liberal or Conservative concern. It is a concern for all of humanity. How can anyone be partisan when it comes to the health of our planet?!?

1) We'll never get balanced reporting on anything from the media. Media outlets exist to get ratings, and sensational crap (on either end of the spectrum of any issue) will always earn higher ratings. So I won't be holding out hope for this.

But I would like to see more government and educational funding aimed at finding real answers. I read somewhere that only 5-10% of all water bottles dropped into RECYCLING boxes ended up being recycled. If this is true, then it either has to change or be replaced, because it isn't working. Period. And I don't really care if its a Liberal or Conservative president/former vice-president/queen/prince/sherpa/alien/super-kitten that leads the way on this issue. I just want to see SOMEONE do it.

2) To me, Environmentalism is a term that is greatly bandied about, with no real aim or goal in sight. I think everyone here can agree that reducing our resource usage would be a good thing. How one goes about doing that is another story. Half the crap I was told 10 years ago would help is now proving to be even WORSE. (Recycling, ethanol, etc.) I'm not even sure I know HOW to reduce my eco-footprint. I don't own a car and I ride my bike just about everywhere I go locally. But I still drink bottled water, I still eat foods grown with chemicals and hormones (unavoidable?), I still fly planes, I still buy products which seem to have 189,234,237 layers of plastic around them, etc. As an environmentalist, I suck; and short of joining a hermit cult living in a forest, I'm not sure what else I can do to help.

Conservation and resource efficiency are ideas that have to come from the top; they need social acceptance. As SZ said, we need a culture change. Driving a hybrid and tossing plastic bottles into the blue bin isn't going to change our fate. Neither will hopping in a Greenpeace boat and ramming oil rigs. (but LOL at the idiots driving a DIESEL BOAT to complain about oil rigs) We need a culture that understands what sustainable growth is, and strives for it the same way we strive for money, power, etc. If it is viewed as a required element of a civilized society, everyone will follow it the same way we follow our laws and constitutions. So ahhh, yeah... get cracking on that cultural change, and let me know when it happens. ;)
 
15boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 13:13
Driving a hybrid and tossing plastic bottles into the blue bin isn't going to change our fate. but you have to start somewhere if you can not get someone to recycle a AL can how can you get them believe in sustainable growth. It really saddens me when i went to the springs last week and i had to take the cans out of my friends trash to put them in the recycle bin right next to trash can. Are enviorment is so screwed.
 
16Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 14:02
Society has managed to change long held cultural practices for the betterment of all. It can be done.

People who prefer to address the topic as a weapon to aim political shots at their adversaries before or rather than earnestly attempting to tackle the issue (see posts 2 and 10) stand in way of that change.

Many liberals might be smug or disingenuous in their efforts and many conservatives might be too combative or indifferent to consider any personal measures. But pointing fingers and shooting barbs at the other side only allows the problems to continue to grow.
 
17Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 08:25
More wordsmithing.

I talked about making it profitable for regular people so that it sells itself. There's more to type but it's honestly wasted on you.

Tree: helping to preserve your environment isn't about right or left, democrat or republican, liberal or conservative.

I agree for the most part. I believe where we differ is on how to "sell" it. You seem to want people to act on their good conscious. That's too utopian. There's money to be made here for the regular guy to benefit if the capital outlays of certain projects (solar panels on homes) were lessened. How can the country and business help those people out?

Could a solar power company come to existence, if there isn't one already, that will put solar panels on your house if you agree to some sort of lease/buy structure with the equipment and use the surplus electricity to help pay that? I don't know.

On this issue, my firm belief is that if practical alternatives are sold as a cost saving measure or revenue stream to folks then it's going to take off. Now if you expect to pluck people's heartstrings so that they change a great portion of their lifestyle, I don't think it will work. I think both strategies in cahoots with each other would work.
 
18Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 09:26
I talked about making it profitable for regular people so that it sells itself.

True, but only after taking a shot at the left (a pretty nonsensical one at that). Why does it have to be framed within a fight?

 
19Tree
      ID: 44626159
      Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 11:20
You seem to want people to act on their good conscious. That's too utopian.

Why is that utopian? that's reality, and it's real simple. hell, i'm not even talking about recycling necessarily - i'm talking about that a$$hole who eats his McDonalds while driving, then throws the bag and wrappers out the window of his car.

Should i pay that guy so he doesn't throw that litter out his window?

there are simple, daily actions we can all take - actions that don't cost anything, and can even save money - that we, apparently, are too lazy to do...UNLESS WE GET PAID FOR IT?????
 
20holt
      ID: 410511410
      Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 11:25
agreed boxman. a lot of this comes down to economics. part of the problem with production of solar cells is the supply of refined silicon. a manufacturer can't just simply make cheaper panels. they're at the mercy of the suppliers of the materials.

wind power is the way of the future but you can't buy a turbine and stick it in your backyard. it's up to major investors to keep it moving forward (tax breaks are helping).

Wind Power Capacity in U.S. Increased 27% in 2006

Enough wind energy can be harnessed from three states--North Dakota, Kansas, and Texas--to satisfy national electricity needs.
 
21Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jul 15, 2007, 11:45
Tree: Why is that utopian?

Because if you expect 100% of the people to act out of the kindness of their heart, it's fruitless. You brought up the litterer. There's really nothing we can do about that. States have preached about the safety of seatbelts and every day people die because they don't wear them.

What I'm talking about is the mainstream adoption of a broad alternate energy lifestyle and solar panels, to me, is a big part of that.

Holt: wind power is the way of the future but you can't buy a turbine and stick it in your backyard. it's up to major investors to keep it moving forward (tax breaks are helping).

Great links. Here's a part from the second one.

The cost of wind-generated electricity has fallen from 38 cents per kilowatt-hour in the early 1980s to 4-6 cents today, Brown said.

Indeed, many consumers of 'green electricity'--wind energy, for the most part--now pay less for their electricity than do customers using conventional power.


Bingo! Why does it take an article from that source for us to find out about it? Instead of lame concerts on TV and Sheryl Crow talking about toilet paper, the environmentalists need to start selling the lower cost examples of wind power. Make the regular folks ask why don't they have the wind/solar power option. Make them demand it.

Don't spend the money on concerts. Spend the money telling us about stuff like that.

Live Earth Ratings

NBC's three-hour Live Earth primetime special, which included highlights from Saturday's global concerts, failed to generate much enthusiasm in the ratings.

The estimated 2.7 million viewers were slightly less than the 3 million NBC would average on a normal Saturday night in the summer with repeats on what already is the least-popular night of television.
 
22boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Wed, Aug 08, 2007, 11:59
I was not sure which thread to put this in, i was going to but it in the WTF thread but it was not quite that outrageous.

windfarms are great as long as the rich don't have them near them.
 
23biliruben
      ID: 35112816
      Wed, Aug 08, 2007, 12:03
Yeah. Typical NIMBY BS.

The costs are low and the benefits substantial. Build as many as you can. Screw views and birds, I say. I don't really find them ugly. I find them majestic.
 
24Mark L
      ID: 25155512
      Wed, Aug 08, 2007, 12:20
One of the nastiest lawsuits I've ever been involved in concerned a battle over permits to build a wind farm about 35 miles outside of Milwaukee -- the longtime residents, many of whom were farmers or former farmers, were all for it, and the newer residents, mostly fairly well-off professionals who moved there seeking some distance from Milwaukee, were hard-core opponents. For a while it got so bad that the town board couldn't meet or vote on anything because not enough people were willing to serve -- board members were getting harassing phone calls, vandalized, etc.
 
25Perm Dude
      ID: 2472789
      Wed, Aug 08, 2007, 12:27
Funny, I'm on my town's Planning Commission, and we just worked up a Wind Energy Ordinance. There weren't any real difficult issues with it on our end.

As the technology improves, even small, rooftop units will evolve. Towns better plan ahead.
 
26Boxman
      ID: 136161615
      Wed, Aug 08, 2007, 13:06
The costs are low and the benefits substantial. Build as many as you can. Screw views and birds, I say. I don't really find them ugly. I find them majestic.

I have to agree with you there. It's actually kinda calming in a weird way; like a fish tank.
 
27Wilmer McLean
      ID: 1035990
      Fri, Apr 11, 2008, 03:15
Yes, CFL's save energy, but...

Again I ask, where is the nearest disposal area of mercury laden CFL's to you?

If you do not know. Why? Both should go hand in hand.

 
28biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, Apr 11, 2008, 15:38
I haven't yet bought any CFLs, but a 20 second google search provided all I needed to know regarding disposal:

http://www.metrokc.gov/dnrp/swd/EcoConsumer/documents/SeattleTimes_03-03-2007.pdf
 
29Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 11, 2008, 15:49
Live near an Ikea? They'll take 'em.
 
30Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 11, 2008, 15:54
For my fellow New Yorkers
 
31Wilmer McLean
      ID: 11351131
      Sun, Apr 13, 2008, 04:29
Thanx bili, Matting, good job!

My point was that folks were pushing cfl's without the full information to the public - the proper disposal.

When I first started this thread in July, 2007, my nearest cfl disposal was three hours away, which took a lengthy google to find.

Today, my town (listed as the best town to live in in NY by a prominent magazine) has regular disposal sites and times.

However, did you know that the CFL light bulbs contain trace elements of mercury that may affect the nervous system if not used or handled properly? Mercury was used in history to cure ills, process felt fiber, fill teeth, make thermometers, medical equipment, and light bulbs work better. Today mercury is being phased out in medicine, dentistry and other applications, because it has been discovered that mercury is toxic.

The Town of Bethlehem accepts spent fluorescent and compact fluorescent light bulbs and old thermometers at the Bethlehem Highway Garage daily during normal working hours, 7:00am to 4:30pm. or at Town Hall where a box is located near the Town Clerk's office; please note, this box is for spent compact fluorescent light (CFL) bulbs only. We also accept these items during household hazardous waste programs. Please keep them in a box or bag or their original container. These items are categorized as “universal waste” which allows the Town to accept these items at all times.

But, I dare say, the advertisements for cfl usage still greatly outnumber the calls for proper disposal.

If you inform the public, inform fully - begininng, middle and end.
 
32R9
      ID: 21721142
      Sun, Apr 13, 2008, 06:21
... and therein lies the serious problem with the 'make it economically profitable' viewpoint. Too often, the marketing and product plans/goals requires the actual environmental benefit to be reduced. The obvious reason cfl disposal is not explained on the side of the box in big writing is because sales would be reduced if people knew more effort was required. Environmentally-sound products can't just save money for people to widely accept them; they also have to save them time (or at least cost no more time) or people won't bite.

Which is where making it culturally acceptable (required?) is important. Those concerts, movies and demonstrations that Boxman rejects are aimed not only at awareness, but guilt as well. The more guilty we feel about plundering our planet, the more likely we are to accept some extra work to abuse it less.

Of course, both he and holt are also right in the benefits of making things economically viable. Both angles are required, and they need to feed off each other to really make a difference. Boxman I think realized this, from his comment:
"I think both strategies in cahoots with each other would work."

What makes me so frustrated about the future of sustainable living is how much coming together we need from two ideas that are so far apart on the political spectrum. Idealism and what I'll call 'free market capitalistic solutions' are not exactly bedmates of the Left or Right... :(
 
33Wilmer McLean
      ID: 45520245
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 04:00
Home Depot Offers Recycling for Compact Fluorescent Bulbs

NY Times
June 24, 2008
By STEPHANIE ROSENBLOOM

Some big retailers are promoting compact fluorescent light bulbs as a way to save energy. But improper disposal of the bulbs creates a hazard, because they contain small amounts of mercury.

Recycling them is about to get easier. Home Depot, the nation’s second-largest retailer, will announce on Tuesday that it will take back old compact fluorescents in all 1,973 of its stores in the United States, creating the nation’s most widespread recycling program for the bulbs.

“We kept hearing from the community that there was a little bit of concern about mercury in the C.F.L.’s,” said Ron Jarvis, Home Depot’s senior vice president for environmental innovation, using the industry abbreviation for the bulbs. “And if the C.F.L.’s were in their house, how could they dispose of them?”

Until now, consumers had to seek out local hazardous waste programs or smaller retail chains willing to collect the bulbs for recycling, like Ikea and True Value. Some consumers have waited for retailers like Wal-Mart to have a designated recycling day. Others bought kits to mail the bulbs to a recycling facility.

The Environmental Protection Agency has been looking into putting bulb drop-off boxes at post offices, said Jim Berlow, director of the agency’s hazardous waste minimization and management division.

But those plans are not final, and across most of the country, recycling the bulbs has been inconvenient at best. Industry professionals estimate that the recycling rate is around 2 percent.

Home Depot’s program, which will accept any maker’s bulbs, will bring relatively convenient recycling within reach of most households. Mr. Jarvis estimated that 75 percent of the nation’s homes are within 10 miles of a Home Depot.

“We’re trying to do the right thing,” he said. “Some of the things that we do are for the community and not for the bottom line.”

Both Home Depot and Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest retailer, have vigorously promoted the bulbs as part of their commitment to the environment. Wal-Mart announced in October 2006 that it wanted to sell 100 million compact fluorescents by the end of 2007. It surpassed that goal, selling 193 million bulbs to date.

Wal-Mart has accepted expired bulbs at take-back events in particular markets and is exploring how to do it consistently on a national level. Wal-Mart has more than twice the number of United States stores as Home Depot.

The need for a national recycling program became apparent to Home Depot as sales of compact fluorescents, which had been slow compared with sales of incandescent bulb, climbed to 75 million last year, from about 50 million in 2006. And a recycling program is likely to drive even more people to Home Depot.

“We haven’t really had to develop the infrastructure” before now, said Steven Hamburg, interim director of the Center for Environmental Studies at Brown University. “The demand wasn’t there.” But lately, consumers have been getting the message — in stores, from the media and through awareness campaigns — that compact fluorescents use up to 75 percent less energy, last longer and cost less over time than incandescent bulbs.

Mr. Hamburg says the average household reduces its energy budget by $12 to $20 a month using compact fluorescents. Additionally, better technology has made the bulbs’ harsh glow somewhat warmer and softer, though many people still object to it.

More innovations are on the way. Home Depot has plans to introduce more dimmable compact fluorescents within the year. Mr. Hamburg and colleagues at Brown recently developed a box that absorbs mercury — so there would be no need to fret if a bulb breaks in the box.

Mercury is found in other common household items like electronics, appliances and pesticides. Its vapors, however, can harm people and pollute the environment, which is why recycling is encouraged. (In some places it is against the law not to recycle the bulbs.)

“We generally think using these bulbs are over all a good thing for the environment,” said Mr. Berlow of the E.P.A. “The only thing you have to be aware of is the potential for them to break.”

The E.P.A. devotes pages of its Web site to cleanup instructions for broken compact fluorescents. Before even beginning to clean up a spill, consumers are advised to leave the room (along with their pets), open a window and shut off any operating air heating or cooling systems.

That may seem foreboding, but experts see a greater health risk from the mercury emissions produced by coal-burning plants to power less efficient bulbs.

“The avoided mercury emissions are much larger than the mercury we’re using in the bulbs,” said Mr. Hamburg of Brown, referring to compact fluorescents.

Home Depot’s bulbs contain 2.3 to 3.5 milligrams of mercury, which is below the National Electrical Manufacturers Association recommendation of 5 milligrams or fewer. It is a small amount, equivalent to the volume of the steel ball in the tip of a ballpoint pen. “Most people in their home have 1,000 times more mercury literally in their thermostat, let alone thermometers,” Mr. Hamburg said.



-------------------------------------------------

EPA Site - When a CFL bulb breaks

Before Clean-up: Air Out the Room

Have people and pets leave the room, and don't let anyone walk through the breakage area on their way out.
Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system, if you have one.

Clean-Up Steps for Hard Surfaces

Carefully scoop up glass pieces and powder using stiff paper or cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes. Place towels in the glass jar or plastic bag.
Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard surfaces.

Clean-up Steps for Carpeting or Rug

Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed, vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.

Clean-up Steps for Clothing, Bedding and Other Soft Materials

If clothing or bedding materials come in direct contact with broken glass or mercury-containing powder from inside the bulb that may stick to the fabric, the clothing or bedding should be thrown away. Do not wash such clothing or bedding because mercury fragments in the clothing may contaminate the machine and/or pollute sewage.
You can, however, wash clothing or other materials that have been exposed to the mercury vapor from a broken CFL, such as the clothing you are wearing when you cleaned up the broken CFL, as long as that clothing has not come into direct contact with the materials from the broken bulb.
If shoes come into direct contact with broken glass or mercury-containing powder from the bulb, wipe them off with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes. Place the towels or wipes in a glass jar or plastic bag for disposal.

Disposal of Clean-up Materials

Immediately place all clean-up materials outdoors in a trash container or protected area for the next normal trash pickup.
Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags containing clean-up materials.
Check with your local or state government about disposal requirements in your specific area. Some states do not allow such trash disposal. Instead, they require that broken and unbroken mercury-containing bulbs be taken to a local recycling center.
Future Cleaning of Carpeting or Rug: Air Out the Room During and After Vacuuming

The next several times you vacuum, shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system and open a window before vacuuming.
Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and the window open for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.

 
34Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 07:08
Odd you never hear the standard, 'Even one atom of plutonium is deadly' argument when it comes to these bulbs. Usually when it comes to 'protecting the environment' from products absolutism reigns supreme. No amount of second hand smoke is insignificant enuff to avoid hysteria. Someone is smoking in my ballpark, two apartments down, that sealed off other section with it's own ventalation system, someone is still smoking in Illinois...someday soon.
 
35boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Nov 14, 2008, 16:35
I was not sure where to put this but it seem to possibly fit here. i think the map is interesting but the article not so much.

% of land owned by the government
 
36Wilmer McLean
      ID: 46653164
      Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 06:53
For gits and shiggles:

 
37Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 15:42
The first nationwide Earth Day was held April 22, 1970, the 100th anniversary of the birth of the communist Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin, founder of the Soviet Union.
 
38Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 15:50
The first nationwide Earth Day was held April 22, 1970, the 100th anniversary of the birth of the communist Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin, founder of the Soviet Union.

which are, of course, unrelated bits of information.

the reality is that when US Senator Gaylord Nelson was looking for a good date for the first Earth Day, he DID SOME RESEARCH.

He looked at the week of April 19–25, because there were no mid-term exams or spring breaks scheduled for colleges, nor was there a conflict with Easter or Passover.

nice try though.



 
39Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 16:09
Of note is that in Russia the Gregorian calendar wasn't introduced until after the Revolution, so Lenin was born under the old calendar date of April 10th. Same day (100 years previous) but different date.

Also, it was Nabokov's birthday. Clearly the liberals were celebrating the lust for young girls in setting Earth Day when they did.
 
40Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 18:38
And the founder murdered his wife, so keep searching. Maybe it's also some Jack-The-Ripper anniversary.
 
41sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 18:50
while proudly relaying all this "guilt by association", dont forget to include your own religion.
 
42Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 19:55
I'm just humoring. Of course it's really all about Lenin whose first act practically was to rip the land away from the people on behalf of the state.
 
43Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 20:01
After implementing his tyrannical rule over Russia in the October Revolution, Lenin issued a Decree on Land within his first year as Communist Party chairman. The decree declared that all forests, waters and minerals were property of the state.

Lenin also issued the decree “On Hunting Seasons and the Right to Possess Hunting Weapons,” which banned hunting moose and wild goats and ended open seasons for a variety of other animals.

Another resolution adopted by the Soviet government titled “On the Protection of Nature, Gardens, and Parks” established zapovedniki, or human-free nature preserves.

Despite the poverty of the people under Soviet rule, Lenin decided that it better served the national interest to place the rich natural resources of the area beyond human reach. - WND
 
44Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 21:05
Yeah, we wouldn't want a leader in the US to place large areas of land outside development interest...
 
45Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 21:08
Be reasonable about it.
 
46Tree
      ID: 37226713
      Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 09:50
The founder of what murdered his wife?? Earth Day??
 
47Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Sat, Apr 21, 2012, 19:57
Ira Einhorn was the master of ceremonies at the first Earth Day rally in 1970. He claimed to be a co-founder and obviously after he was found to have murdered his wife people tried to back themselves and Earth Day away from him.

There were mitigating circumstances however. At least he composted her.
 
48Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 14:46
right. he wasn't a co-founder. just claimed it.
 
49Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 14:48
nice of you to pass of the lie of a murderer.
 
50Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 15:35
The former members of the committee said in a 1998 letter that it was founded by Senator Gaylord Nelson.

They go on:
Much to our dismay, we now find that the self-styled hippie guru and alleged murderer of Holly Maddux, Ira Einhorn, has been taking credit for initiating and/or organizing Earth Day. He is not telling the truth. A group of very dedicated young people worked very hard to organize Earth Day, but Einhorn was not one of them. In fact, Einhorn was asked to leave several meetings of the organizing committee which he attempted to disrupt. He was not welcome there, nor did he contribute in any material way to the committee’s activities. Einhorn, given a small role on the stage at Earth Day, grabbed the microphone and refused to give up the podium for thirty minutes, thinking he would get some free television publicity. We just waited until he had completed his "act" and then got on to the serious business at hand, the keynote speech of U.S. Senator Edmund Muskie, author of the landmark U.S. Clean Air Act of 1970.
 
51Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 20:21
Oh please, it's not like he was denying or minimizing Nelson.
 
52Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 21:49
Oh please, it's not like he was denying or minimizing Nelson.

look, you lied. or, at the very least, once again, did shoddy research.

considering your history, the people you look up to, i'm inclined to go with the former.
 
57Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 15:50
Your problem isn't that you don't know what sort of people Bill Ayers and Ira Einhorn are and what they represent. It's that you approve.
 
58Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 16:05
Maybe. But you can't get to that conclusion using the road you've paved with lies.

You need to have enough confidence in your side of the story to either present it without distorting history, or adjust your side to reflect the facts (rather than the other way around).

The problem with partisans isn't that they aren't strong enough in how they express their opinions, it is that they believe more strongly worded opinions can overcome factual or rhetorical deficiencies.

 
59Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 16:12
It is what it is. The guy was on the committee that created Earth Day. He was the first MC and the first presenter on stage. He murdered his wife.

Whatever that means, it sure is the truth. Of course you want to interpret that until it is minimized down to nothing but that doesn't give you, PD, license to call me a liar or Tree, to descend into another slanderfest of my religion.
 
60Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 16:41
A group of very dedicated young people worked very hard to organize Earth Day, but Einhorn was not one of them.

That's what all the former members of the committe collectively say.

Einhorn, the murderer, claims he was not only on the committee but the founder of the thing.

Personally, I couldn't care less but I would tend to believe the consensus of the people who on the committee and also aren't murderers over the individual whom they say wasn't one of them and who is a murderer.

I'm pretty sure that would be Boldwin's standard, too, except in cases where putting his faith in the murderer is the option that better supports the integrity of his worldview that people mwho aren't like him are usually terrible.
 
61Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 17:04
From the book A Quest For Life, Autobiography of Ian L. McHarg
On the very day that Gaylord Perry intimated his plan for Earth Day the faculty and students of our department sent a telegram committing our participation. A committee was formed headed by a young hydrologist and regional planner from Vanderbilt, Austan Librach. Soon an executive director was hired, a lawyer and city planner Ed Furia. The king of Philidelphia hippies, Ira Einhorn joined the group and played a major role.
Anyone denying that is the one who is a liar.

 
62Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 17:30
Again, I really don't care but nobody is denying that. Just put in the effort to make it through the next two sentences of their letter:
In fact, Einhorn was asked to leave several meetings of the organizing committee which he attempted to disrupt. He was not welcome there, nor did he contribute in any material way to the committee’s activitie.
 
63Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:00
Well I guess you will continue to believe a group of liberals in CYA mode denying everything...

...over someone who was there at the founding who listed Einhorn third in his list of early and main movers and shakers.

What pray tell was McHarg's reason to lie about it? I got your liberal's motives right here.

Pretty big difference between a major role and 'we had nothing to do with that disgusting hippy'.

I mean, what liberal in his right mind would have had anything to do with Einhorn in 1970? I mean besides Harvard where he taught and held a fellowship at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government...and his good buddies Arlen Specter and all his friends at Esalen Institute or Barbara Bronfman [one of the richest families in Canada and well known occultist] who made his bail. Then there was his good buddy Phillip K. Dick.

Fighting his extradition to the USA were members of French government and of the European Parliament; the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the National Assembly of France, Socialists, Communists, and Green Party delegates; the League of Human Rights, the human rights group S.O.S. Racisme.

Yeah, he was prolly just some self-serving nobody trying to horn in on Nelson Gaylord's fun. I am sure no one wanted anything to do with him at the time.
 
64Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:15
It is what it is. The guy was on the committee that created Earth Day. He was the first MC and the first presenter on stage. He murdered his wife.

you have a hard time with facts.

Einhorn didn't murder his wife. or his ex-wife. or his girlfriend. it was his ex-girlfriend. now, i don't think this was intentional or malicious on your part, but rather is part of a pattern of you not doing due diligence because your hubris is so great you believe yourself infallible.

Whatever that means, it sure is the truth. Of course you want to interpret that until it is minimized down to nothing but that doesn't give you, PD, license to call me a liar or Tree, to descend into another slanderfest of my religion

it's not the first time you've lied, it won't be the last.

On the very day that Gaylord Perry intimated his plan for Earth Day the faculty and students of our department sent a telegram committing our participation. A committee was formed headed by a young hydrologist and regional planner from Vanderbilt, Austan Librach. Soon an executive director was hired, a lawyer and city planner Ed Furia. The king of Philidelphia hippies, Ira Einhorn joined the group and played a major role.

pretty sure Gaylord Perry had nothing to do with Earth Day. if anything, the amount of oil he contributed to the atmosphere is probably directly opposite of Earth Day.

seriously though, you're grasping at straws here. you claimed Ira Einhorn was a co-founder of Earth Day. he very much was not a co-founder of Earth Day.

you hate being called out on your dishonesty, and you especially hate when it's someone you've spend years insulting. you're wrong here. period.
 
65Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:26
Friends with Marshall Mcluhan and Buckminster Fuller, Francis Huxley, Peter Gabriel, Arthur Koestler, Andrija Puharich, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin...

I mean what 1970's liberal radical would have wanted to have anything to do with a guy with friends like that???

Obviously the Earth Day committee would have done everything they could to shunt him off to the periphery.
 
66Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:34
Lol! It just get's richer and richer!

pretty sure Gaylord Perry had nothing to do with Earth Day.

Oh, you'll listen to the Earth Day committee when they deny Einhorn but not when they pack the Wiki entry for Earth Day.

OMG even Einhorn didn't claim to be the principle founder of Earth Day but everyone recognizes Nelson.

Why do you even bother to post here, Tree?
 
67Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:36
While he lectures me on due diligence, no less. Who needs comedians when reality provides so richly?
 
68Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 23:27
While he lectures me on due diligence, no less. Who needs comedians when reality provides so richly?

indeed. you have NO idea how right you are.

pretty sure Gaylord Perry had nothing to do with Earth Day.

Oh, you'll listen to the Earth Day committee when they deny Einhorn but not when they pack the Wiki entry for Earth Day.


Gaylord Perry still has nothing to do with Earth Day, no matter how many times you claim he does.

And Einhorn still was not a co-founder of Earth Day. period. you're wrong on both counts.
 
69sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 23:53
pssst B? Gaylord NELSON, not Perry...founded Earth Day. Nelson, was a Sen, Perry, was a BB pitcher.
 
70Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:05
ROFL!

Perry was a son of a bitch, though. Maybe that's their connection?
 
71Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:09
:oD
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:12
Oh sheesh. An error in transcribing from a book that wouldn't allow C-n-P. I never claimed it was Perry anywhere else when I was describing events.
 
73Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:14
And no one here has even attempted to explain why McHarg who was there described Einhorn's role as major.
 
74sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:15
Cause he thought Perry founded ED? I dunno.
 
75Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:21
I seems misplaced to expect those you are trying to convince to both fact check and spell check your sources. Particularly when you are coming from an intentionally provocative place.
 
76Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:28
I've provided more than enuff evidence to convince any honest person that Einhorn was involved in more than a peripheral way and could indeed be said to be a co-founder. And I think a lot less of you for calling me a liar in the face of that evidence.
 
77Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:52
You are being dishonest and if you allowed any kind of Christianity to enter your heart when you are on these boards you would have never posted any of it. You only posted it as a smear tactic. And now that your evidence isn't conclusive you've decided to fight like a badger instead of engaging God's gift of humility when faced with such a response.

Intentional dishonesty is lying. Start acting like a Christian man instead of a petulant child when your evidence starts falling apart on you. Such things are opportunities for reflection and humbleness--they are examples of our imperfection. When you double down on smearing you give God a bad name.
 
78Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 02:46
I've provided more than enuff evidence to convince any honest person that Einhorn was involved in more than a peripheral way and could indeed be said to be a co-founder.

no, you haven't. you are lying through your teeth.

nothing you posted supports your claim that Einhorn was a co-founder of Earth Day. You posted Einhorn's own dubious claims, and you posted an excerpt from a book that claims Einhorn played a "major role", conveniently ignoring the rest of the details which include the fact that Einhorn was asked to leave the group and contributed very little.

and you've conveniently overlooked the fact that the book excerpt mentions Einhorn's involvement with the local Earth Day Philadelphia event, and not the larger all-encompassing Earth Day event founded by Gaylord Nelson.

Einhorn was absolutely NOT a co-founder of Earth Day, nor was he anything close to that level of esteem. you can kick and scream and cry until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the facts Baldwin.
 
79Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 12:05
I'm under the impression that the greater Earth Day started with the Philadelphia event.

Anyway, I think most people here see how this goes. Boldwin claimed Einhorn was the "founder". Then the "co-founder". Then "on the committee".

The author of that book linked in 61 did not chronicle the events of the organization of the first Earth Day. He described it as a positive experience and left it at that, glossing over any of the surely considerable challenges and difficulties the group must have dealt with in putting together that event.

That this writer says Einhorn played a major role and that the founders of the thing say they couldn't stand the guy and kicked him out of meetings and and made a spectacle of himself aren't necessarily contradictory at all.

I suspect Einhorn's contribution was his status as a kind of local hippy guru in the city of Philly and just by nature of his involvement (wanted or not by the other organizers) he effectively served as a local promoter.

Even if all he did was screw things up, from the point of view of the writer who was presumable not an organizer but there in a journalistic capacity, Einhorn's antics might have indeed been regarded as playing a major role in the whole of the experience for him.

In any case, I have no idea why I'm supposed to care.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 12:36
He described it as a positive experience and left it at that - MITH

No he described how it developed, who they brought in to shepherd it and in what order.

And the problem is exactly that you don't care who and what is behind the things you support.
 
81sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 12:48
someone who may have had some degree of involvement, with one event which has grown exponentially over the years; is nothing to be concerned with.

If you looked at your family lineage, is there a horse thief back there anywhere? You want us, or anyone, to judge you based on that?
 
82Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 13:00
No he described how it developed, who they brought in to shepherd it and in what order.

You say described, I say mentioned. Is that a book about the organization of the first Earth Day event? Is there any mention (description?) of it in the book aside from those 4 sentences?

Read the paragraphs befor and after. It's fondly remembered events of 1970 in a chapter titled "The Environmental Decade." The portion you provide are all 4 of the sentences he dedicates to Earth Week.

Not a detailed description of the events of that week. A short, passive mention that included no (read: glosses over all of the) anecdotal details.

But please, explain to me again why I care about this beyond the sport of pointing out BS.
 
83Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 14:47
You should all look at the private lives of the philosophers who built your intellectual structure without your being conscious of them. See how their beliefs worked out for the persons in their own families. See how it works out when their ideas have been put to the test on a national scale.

Or you can just keep on doing more of the same and expecting different outcomes.
 
84Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 15:15
I'm under the impression that the greater Earth Day started with the Philadelphia event.

according to wikipedia, Gaylord Nelson conceived the idea after a trip to California and seeing how awful a recent oil spill had been.

the initial planning then began in DC. the DC event, featuring keynote speaker Pete Seeger, was intended to be the main event, seconded by NYC and then Philly. Philly turned their Earth Day event into an Earth Week event, which in turn made it probably the biggest of the events.

that being said, Einhorn's limited involvement was with the Philly event, as for whether that means he was involved with planning the whole kit-and-caboodle, i suppose, is up for debate.

But please, explain to me again why I care about this beyond the sport of pointing out BS.

i think this plays a key role here. for me, it's a poster that repeatedly lies, misrepresents, or distorts the truth, being called on it time and time again, and being faced with pretty clear evidence he's wrong.

most of us who post here have been wrong at some point or another on these boards, and those same folks - myself included - have conceded the point.

why Baldwin can't find it in himself to concede a point (oh, right, Messiah complex) is baffling, especially on such a minor, insignificant thing as this, as if even if Ira Einhorn had been the founder of Earth Day all by his lonesome, it would some diminish the importance of the event.

And the problem is exactly that you don't care who and what is behind the things you support.

says the guy who has routinely praised criminals as heroes and excused criminal acts if they are in the name of a political cause he believes in.

 
85Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 15:21
Post 83:

See See #747 here.
 
86boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 16:41
I am sorry to interrupt but this has to be the dumbest threads in a while a)who cares who started earth day (or even if they murdered someone), its about a meaningful as taco day(oct 4) and b) give it Boldwin even if you are right no one is going to except it based the lousy evidence you post.
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 13:36
The landmines already placed and ready to kill us in the next four years -

...the result of an unprecedented regulatory assault on coal that will leave us all much poorer...
Last week PJM Interconnection, the company that operates the electric grid for 13 states...held its 2015 capacity auction. These are the first real, market prices that take Obama’s most recent anti-coal regulations into account, and they prove that he is keeping his 2008 campaign promise to make electricity prices “necessarily skyrocket.”

The market-clearing price for new 2015 capacity – almost all natural gas – was $136 per megawatt. That’s eight times higher than the price for 2012, which was just $16 per megawatt. [new capacity, not total capacity - B] In the mid-Atlantic area covering New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and DC the new price is $167 per megawatt. For the northern Ohio territory served by FirstEnergy, the price is a shocking $357 per megawatt.

Why the massive price increases? Andy Ott from PJM stated the obvious: “Capacity prices were higher than last year's because of retirements of existing coal-fired generation resulting largely from environmental regulations which go into effect in 2015.” Northern Ohio is suffering from more forced coal-plant retirements than the rest of the region, hence the even higher price.

These are not computer models or projections or estimates. These are the actual prices that electric distributors have agreed to pay for new capacity. The costs will be passed on to consumers at the retail level.

House Energy and Power Subcommittee Chairman Ed Whitfield (R-Ky.) aptly explained: “The PJM auction forecasts a dim future where Americans will be paying more to keep the lights on. We are seeing more and more coal plants fall victim to EPA’s destructive regulatory agenda, and as a result, we are seeing more job losses and higher electricity prices.”

The only thing that can stop this massive price hike now is an all-out effort to end Obama’s War on Coal and repeal this destructive regulatory agenda.

The Senate will have a critical opportunity to do just that when it votes on stopping Obama’s most expensive anti-coal regulation sometime in the next couple of weeks. The vote is on the Inhofe Resolution, S.J. Res 37, to overturn the so-called Utility MACT rule, which the EPA itself acknowledges is its most expensive rule ever.

This vote is protected from filibuster, and it will take just 51 votes to send a clear message to Obama that his War on Coal must end.

Of course, Obama could veto the resolution and keep the rule intact, although that would force him to take full political responsibility for the massive impending jump in electricity prices. [but what does he care, those hikes would take place in his lame duck term - B]
What is needed is four years of tearing out the landmines Obama's czars have planted to go off in the next four years.
 
88Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 13:37
Source
 
89Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 13:59
Keeping clean has its costs.
 
90Mith
      ID: 514182515
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 16:33
Yes, PD, but not nearly as much as Boldwin and that writer want you to believe.
Kerpen got it right at the start – the Energy Information Administration has reported a dramatic drop in coal-fired generation in West Virginia – from 44.6 percent last year to nearly 36 percent of generation in this quarter.

Kerpen's story focuses on an announcement from PJM Interconnection, the company that operates the electric grid for Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia and the District of Columbia. The announcement regarded the results of its capacity auction.


He goes on to state that northern Ohio will suffer even more.

All of that information is correct. He again rightly points out that they are prices paid by electric distributors for new capacity, not models or projects. The next statement – that "the costs will be passed on to consumers at the retail level" may not be untrue, but does gloss over a quote in the same news release Kerpen mined for the prior Ott quote:
Ott noted that the 2015 capacity prices' overall effect on retail consumers' electricity rates is expected to be moderated by other factors. "Capacity is a fairly small component of the retail price of electricity, and the cost of capacity at the retail level tends to be averaged out over several years," Ott explained. "In addition, if natural gas prices remain low, that would tend to restrain retail electricity prices."
Basically, the cost the consumer pays involves more than simple contract prices paid to generators. While there is a legitimate argument that current conditions discourage burning coal, there is also the problem of cheap and currently abundant shale gas resources competing for the same market share as coal.

While replacing coal with some renewables is not necessarily immediately cost-effective, natural gas plants can currently heavily compete with coal plants. It's also notable that many coal-fired plants were near retirement anyway due to age, inefficiency or both compared to natural gas or modern coal plants.


It's not to say recent environmental regulations have not cost the industry – but it remains unclear just how much it will cost consumers. Answering that question involves a number of externalities with answers that vary depending on who you ask.
How disappointed Boldwin will be to read this.
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 20:22
there is also the problem of cheap and currently abundant shale gas resources competing for the same market share as coal.

The cost of that 'cheap' competing gas went up eight times for all new gas fired capacity.

It is misleading to pretend the 'abundant' gas will be cheap. Far far from it. That won't change at least until new power plants are approved and built.

Try getting power plants approved and built. About as easy as building a refinery with enviro-weenies screwing everything up. Maybe in a couple decades that 'cheap gas' will be cheap.
 
92Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 22:31
You mean like this one? In the heart of KY coal country?
 
93Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 23:50
The PSC disagreed with environmental groups, including the Sierra Club and Natural Resources Defense Council, which said KU and LG&E could economically meet their power needs through a combination of wind power and more aggressive efforts to reduce the demand for electricity.

Just cause you've got the Kentucky Public Service Commission sold doesn't mean the EPA has given final approval.
 
94Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 00:00
Of course. All you have is the fear of the future, not the facts of the present.

Keep hoping for more bad news.

I was just reading a forthcoming biography of a girl raised in the 1950's in a Bircher household. Reminded me of you.
 
95Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 00:34
Keep hoping for more bad news.

Here's hoping every trace of Obama is erased. All good.
 
96Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 01:34
As with Clinton: Kicking and screaming into economic prosperity.
 
97Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 04:15
Yeah, just like in what other communitarian paradise?
 
98Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 11:39
And that was the Ronald Reagan/Newt Gingerich 20 year boom. Clinton was prevented from screwing it up.
 
99Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:13
Heh. Unlike those two, he submitted a budget which was balanced. Pat yourself on the back all you want.
 
100Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 13:21
It's the only time conservatism has even been partially tried in this country. Worked like a charm.
 
101Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 13:23
The only time since FDR. [wasn't tried much by Bush 1&2 either]
 
102Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 15:28
True. But you learned the wrong lesson (as usual). Working a conservative-leaning Democratic president can work some good deals for each side, and you've had a chance with Obama as well. Instead, the GOP thought it can just be dicks, oppose everything and "win" in the end by being the out party during an economic downturn. Being against the president on everything isn't a political position--it is a pathology.
 
103Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 15:52
Trying to spend you way out of debt is a pathology.
 
104Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 20:15
We're not trying to spend our way out of debt. We're trying to keep the economy going during a depression.

You are under the misunderstanding that we're trying to solve the problem of debt, when we have more pressing problems to solve first.
 
105Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 21:08
You are under the misunderstanding that we're trying to solve the problem of debt, when we have more pressing problems to solve first.

Fortunately, both Obama and Romney understand that spending cuts must be limited to avoid a full-blown depression.