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| Posted by: Jag
- [14828255] Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 23:46
I am pushing 50 and the greast guy I know is a big time Liberal. Our latest arguement was over Katrina. He made all the Leftist talking points, Bush shoulld of hired someone with more experience, He raised horses, "Way to go Brownie". So, I asked him what specificly did Brownie do wrong. I would love to have a direct answer, under what was the role of FEMA at the time, what did Brownie do wrong? |
| | | 1 | walk
ID: 55114717 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 08:52
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Washington Times Summary
Not sure if this answers the question. I tried to find something balanced. There are many blogs that summarize his and the gov'ts performance regarding Katrina, but I figured you would discount the bloggers as being unbalanced. You can also do some research.
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| | | 2 | angryCHAIR
ID: 29955918 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 09:11
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ah---how about not reacting to the problem quickly enough!
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| | | 3 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 17:05
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Walk, I read the article and I am still vague on the role of FEMA and what Brown should of done. I don't think anyone knows. IMHO, the worse infractions were the lack of planning of evacuation, the blockage of supplies from the Red Cross and slow call-up of the National Guard, all screw-ups by the Mayor and Governor. Why is this so hard? I named seversl specific points on how the local Goevernment erred and in all these years, since the diaster, I have yet to hear anything , but generic political speak, about the role of FEMA at the time and specificly what Brown did wrong.
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| | | 4 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 19:49
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I have always stated that Liberals are like a cross between a menopausal old woman and the Monday Morning Quarterback. They can tell everything you are doing is wrong and after the fact, pick out mistakes, but offer little in a way of comprehensive suggestions and insight beforehand. I have also have maintained I am a moderate, so to keep in form I will offer my suggestions.
Bush should have hired a person experienced with National diasters and that person should of helped difined the role of FEMA.
The major problem with Katrina was an incompetent Mayor, who did absolutely nothing and an idiot Governor, who tried to run the show with arrogant attitude, refusing to seek advise from knowledeable experts, such as the Florida Diaster Management. We must change our system, I still believe the Governor of each state should be the Quarterback for a National diaster, but their should be fall back position incase of local government incompetence.
Bush did fail during Katrina, he should not of delegated authority on a diaster of this magnitude. He is the only one in America, that could of pulled Blanco from the directoral position of Katrina to the bench. This has never been needed to be done during a natural diaster before, but a good leader knows when to change game plans.
Katrina was time for Bush to shine, but instead he came across as crass towards New Orlean's plight. I know many Liberals consider Bush the worse President in history and on a Public Relations stand-point, I agree, it is a close race between he and Nixon.
If Clinton had been President during the diaster, I doubt things would of gone smoother, but at least it would of appeared as if he cared.
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| | | 5 | Perm Dude
ID: 2710413011 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 19:54
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I don't think there is any doubt that both the Mayor & Governor made mistakes, big & small (although the Governor's "slow response" is a lie. She declared a state of emergency on the 26th of August--three days before the hurricane). And, it should be noted, 3000 Louisiana National Guardsmen who might have been available for disaster help were across the world at the time--in Iraq.
FEMA's problems stemmed from both a slow response and continuing to underestimate the problem, even after they arrived on scene.
This NY Times piece spells out many of the problems, on all levels, which occured. I don't think it pulls any punches, and many of the problems were a result of poor communication between levels (which certainly wasn't FEMA's fault). But FEMA was at fault for a number of things.
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| | | 6 | weykool Leader
ID: 41750315 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 20:45
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Maybe I have had the wrong perception of the job/role of FEMA. It has been my understanding that FEMA's Job/Role in disasters was to assist people in getting low cost loans to help them rebuild. If I am wrong in this I wouldnt mind understanding where I came up with the wrong perception. If I am right then it makes the people who chanted "FEMA lied people died" because FEMA was "slow to act". I cant help but ask how many lives could have been saved if only they had the federal forms for a low cost loan in hand before the storm hit? Again if I am wrong please enlighten me.
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| | | 7 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 21:41
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That was the FEMA and FEMA's mandate pre-Clinton. Clinton overhauled the agency, appointed competent people, and made they agency relevant in emergencies. Bush went and destroyed it, turning it back into his daddy's FEMA - appointing incompetents and making it useless and slow.
Here's an article which describes the turn-around:
Consider the Oklahoma City bombing. Tom Feuerborne, director of Oklahoma's Civil Emergency Management Department, can cite the events of April 19, 1995 almost down to the minute. It was 9:02 a.m. when a truck bomb ripped through the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Office Building in downtown Oklahoma City. At 9:30, Feuerborne placed a phone call to FEMA's headquarters in Washington. At 2:05, FEMA's advance team arrived, complete with damage assessors and members of Witt's staff. Six hours later, at 8:10 that evening, Witt himself arrived to be briefed on the situation. By 2:30 a.m. April 20, the first of FEMA's search and rescue teams had arrived to supplement the efforts of the Oklahoma City fire department. Says Feuerborne, "My office is very happy with the quick response of FEMA."
Ellen Gordon, administrator of Iowa's Emergency Management Division, has a similarly uncanny memory when it comes to FEMA's response to the Midwestern floods of 1993. Shortly after midnight on Sunday, July 11, she received a call from L.D. McMullen, the general manager of the Des Moines Water Works. Their operation was at the point of collapse, he said. The 250,000 citizens of Des Moines would soon lose all of their water.
One year earlier, Gordon would have mailed federal relief request forms to Washington, where, as Puerto Rico's Governor Hernandez-Colon discovered, they may have received a less-than-speedy response. But all Gordon had to do was place a phone call to the FEMA disaster field office located in Davenport. Early Sunday morning, FEMA officials arrived in Des Moines, and, by 11:30 a.m., they had determined a plan of action. By that evening, 29 water distribution centers had been established. The next morning, the first of 30 self-contained water purification machines arrived. For the next two-and-a-half weeks, the Des Moines Water Works was inoperable, but the city had all the water it needed. "Nothing sticks out in our minds that we had to haggle over or justify," says Gordon. "Whenever we asked for assistance it was there."
It is a sentiment shared by virtually all those involved with the response to the midwestern floods. At a Congressional hearing in October 1993 to appraise FEMA's performance, congressmen and state disaster officials who testified praised FEMA's efforts and marveled at the turnaround Witt had engineered. Missouri State Emergency Management Director Jerry Uhlmann said that, "this flood showcased FEMA's new commitment and successful efforts in disaster response to catastrophic events." And, as disasters are bipartisan, the response to FEMA's success has been as well. "I haven't spent a lot of time complimenting the President on his appointments," said Oklahoma Republican Daniel Inhofe, "but I sure did on this one."
It just goes back to Bush hating government, and time after time appointing people to top jobs who specifically revile the role of government in the job they are appointed to, with predictable results.
If also hate government, then you should cheer "Way to go Dubya!" and to all you dead and suffering in New Orleans: "Suck it."
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| | | 8 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Dec 01, 2007, 23:37
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Hurricane Katrina timeline For the record:Friday, August 26 GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA
GULF COAST STATES REQUEST TROOP ASSISTANCE FROM PENTAGON
Saturday, August 27 GOV. HALEY BARBOUR DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY IN MISSISSIPPI
5AM CDT — KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 3 HURRICANE
GOV. BLANCO ASKS BUSH TO DECLARE FEDERAL STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA
FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO RESPOND TO KATRINA: “Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency.” [White House]
Sunday, August 28 2AM CDT — KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE
7AM CDT — KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE
MORNING — LOUISIANA NEWSPAPER SIGNALS LEVEES MAY GIVE
9:30 AM CDT — MAYOR NAGIN ISSUES FIRST EVER MANDATORY EVACUATION OF NEW ORLEANS: “We’re facing the storm most of us have feared,” said Nagin. “This is going to be an unprecedented event.”
AFTERNOON — BUSH, BROWN, CHERTOFF WARNED OF LEVEE FAILURE BY NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER DIRECTOR: Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center:
4PM CDT — NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ISSUES SPECIAL HURRICANE WARNING
LATE PM — REPORTS OF WATER TOPPLING OVER LEVEE
APPROXIMATELY 30,000 EVACUEES GATHER AT SUPERDOME WITH ROUGHLY 36 HOURS WORTH OF FOOD
LOUISIANA NATIONAL GUARD REQUESTS 700 BUSES FROM FEMA FOR EVACUATIONS: FEMA sends only 100 buses.
Monday, August 29 7AM CDT — KATRINA MAKES LANDFALL AS A CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE
7:30 AM CDT — BUSH ADMINISTRATION NOTIFIED OF THE LEVEE BREACH: The administration finds out that a levee in New Orleans was breached. On this day, 28 “government agencies, from local Louisiana parishes to the White House, [reported that] that New Orleans levees” were breached.
8AM CDT — MAYOR NAGIN REPORTS THAT WATER IS FLOWING OVER LEVEE
11:13 AM CDT - WHITE HOUSE CIRCULATES INTERNAL MEMO ABOUT LEVEE BREACH
MORNING — BROWN WARNS BUSH ABOUT THE POTENTIAL DEVASTATION OF KATRINA: In a briefing, Brown warned Bush, “This is, to put it mildly, the big one, I think.” He also voiced concerns that the government may not have the capacity to “respond to a catastrophe within a catastrophe” and that the Superdome was ill-equipped to be a refuge of last resort.
MORNING — MAYFIELD WARNS BUSH ABOUT THE TOPPING OF THE LEVEES: In the same briefing, Max Mayfield, National Hurricane Center Director, warns, “This is a category 5 hurricane, very similar to Hurricane Andrew in the maximum intensity, but there’s a big big difference. This hurricane is much larger than Andrew ever was. I also want to make absolutely clear to everyone that the greatest potential for large loss of lives is still in the coastal areas from the storm surge. … I don’t think anyone can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not, but there’s obviously a very very grave concern.”
MORNING — BUSH CALLS SECRETARY CHERTOFF TO DISCUSS IMMIGRATION: “I spoke to Mike Chertoff today — he’s the head of the Department of Homeland Security. I knew people would want me to discuss this issue [immigration], so we got us an airplane on — a telephone on Air Force One, so I called him. I said, are you working with the governor? He said, you bet we are.”
MORNING — BUSH SHARES BIRTHDAY CAKE PHOTO-OP WITH SEN. JOHN MCCAIN
11AM CDT — MICHAEL BROWN FINALLY REQUESTS THAT DHS DISPATCH 1,000 EMPLOYEES TO REGION, GIVES THEM TWO DAYS TO ARRIVE: “Brown’s memo to Chertoff described Katrina as ‘this near catastrophic event’ but otherwise lacked any urgent language. The memo politely ended, ‘Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities.’”
LATE MORNING — LEVEE BREACHED
8PM CDT — GOV. BLANCO AGAIN REQUESTS ASSISTANCE FROM BUSH: “Mr. President, we need your help. We need everything you’ve got.”
LATE PM — BUSH GOES TO BED WITHOUT ACTING ON BLANCO’S REQUESTS
Tuesday, August 30 MIDDAY — CHERTOFF CLAIMS HE FINALLY BECOMES AWARE THAT LEVEE HAS FAILED: “It was on Tuesday that the levee–may have been overnight Monday to Tuesday–that the levee started to break. And it was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap and that essentially the lake was going to start to drain into the city.” But later reports note that the Bush administration learned of the levee breach on Aug. 29.
PENTAGON CLAIMS THERE ARE ENOUGH NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS IN REGION: “Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said the states have adequate National Guard units to handle the hurricane needs.”
MASS LOOTING REPORTED, SECURITY SHORTAGE CITED: “The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked,” Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. “We’re using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops.”
U.S.S. BATAAN SITS OFF SHORE, VIRTUALLY UNUSED: “The USS Bataan, a 844-foot ship designed to dispatch Marines in amphibious assaults, has helicopters, doctors, hospital beds, food and water. It also can make its own water, up to 100,000 gallons a day. And it just happened to be in the Gulf of Mexico when Katrina came roaring ashore. The Bataan rode out the storm and then followed it toward shore, awaiting relief orders. Helicopter pilots flying from its deck were some of the first to begin plucking stranded New Orleans residents. But now the Bataan’s hospital facilities, including six operating rooms and beds for 600 patients, are empty.”
2PM CDT — PRESIDENT BUSH PLAYS GUITAR WITH COUNTRY SINGER MARK WILLIS [AP]
BUSH RETURNS TO CRAWFORD FOR FINAL NIGHT OF VACATION [AP]
Wednesday, August 31 1:45AM CDT — FEMA REQUESTS AMBULANCES THAT DO NOT EXIST: “Almost 18 hours later, [FEMA] canceled the request for the ambulances because it turned out, as one FEMA employee put it, ‘the DOT doesn’t do ambulances.’”
11:20 AM CDT — FEMA STAFF WARNED BROWN THAT PEOPLE WERE DYING AT THE SUPERDOME: Three hours later, Brown’s press secretary wrote to colleagues complaining that Brown needed more time scheduled to eat at a restaurant: “He needs much more that (sic) 20 or 30 minutes. We now have traffic to encounter to go to and from a location of his choise (sic), followed by wait service from the restaurant staff, eating, etc. Thank you.”
NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS ARRIVE IN LOUSIANA, MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA, AND FLORIDA: Troops arrive two days after they are requested.
TENS OF THOUSANDS TRAPPED IN SUPERDOME; CONDITIONS DETERIORATE: “A 2-year-old girl slept in a pool of urine. Crack vials littered a restroom. Blood stained the walls next to vending machines smashed by teenagers. ‘We pee on the floor. We are like animals,’ said Taffany Smith, 25, as she cradled her 3-week-old son, Terry. … By Wednesday, it had degenerated into horror. … At least two people, including a child, have been raped. At least three people have died, including one man who jumped 50 feet to his death, saying he had nothing left to live for. There is no sanitation. The stench is overwhelming.”"
PRESIDENT BUSH FINALLY ORGANIZES TASK FORCE TO COORDINATE FEDERAL RESPONSE: Bush says on Tuesday he will “fly to Washington to begin work…with a task force that will coordinate the work of 14 federal agencies involved in the relief effort.”
JEFFERSON PARISH EMERGENCY DIRECTOR SAYS FOOD AND WATER SUPPLY GONE: “Director Walter Maestri: FEMA and national agencies not delivering the help nearly as fast as it is needed.”
80,000 BELIEVED STRANDED IN NEW ORLEANS: Former Mayor Sidney Barthelemy “estimated 80,000 were trapped in the flooded city and urged President Bush to send more troops.”
3,000 STRANDED AT CONVENTION CENTER WITHOUT FOOD OR WATER: “With 3,000 or more evacuees stranded at the convention center — and with no apparent contingency plan or authority to deal with them — collecting a body was no one’s priority. … Some had been at the convention center since Tuesday morning but had received no food, water or instructions.”
PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY DECLARED FOR ENTIRE GULF COAST: “After a natural disaster, short and long-term medical problems can occur. Diseases like cholera, typhoid, hepatitis and mosquito-borne illnesses tend to break out under these conditions.”
BUSH SURVEYS DAMAGE FROM AIR FORCE ONE: President Bush flew over New Orleans on Air Force One. “During the 35-minute tour, Bush clearly saw from his vantage point the damage to the football stadium in New Orleans as well as the flooded neighborhoods, wiped out bridges and slabs of foundations where houses used to stand.”
CHERTOFF “EXTREMELY PLEASED WITH THE RESPONSE” OF THE GOVERNMENT: “We are extremely pleased with the response that every element of the federal government, all of our federal partners, have made to this terrible tragedy.”
EARLY AM — BLANCO AGAIN TRIES TO REQUEST HELP FROM BUSH: “She was transferred around the White House for a while until she ended up on the phone with Fran Townsend, the president’s Homeland Security adviser, who tried to reassure her but did not have many specifics. Hours later, Blanco called back and insisted on speaking to the president. When he came on the line, the governor recalled, “I just asked him for help, ‘whatever you have’.” She asked for 40,000 troops.”
4PM CDT — BUSH GIVES FIRST MAJOR ADDRESS ON KATRINA: “Nothing about the president’s demeanor… — which seemed casual to the point of carelessness — suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis.”
8PM CDT — FEMA DIRECTOR BROWN CLAIMS SURPRISE OVER SIZE OF STORM: “I must say, this storm is much much bigger than anyone expected."
Thursday, September 1 7AM CDT — BUSH CLAIMS NO ONE EXPECTED LEVEES TO BREAK: “I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.” However, as former FEMA Director Michael Brown told CNN, “the president knew from our earlier conversations that that was one of my concerns, that the levees could actually breach.”
STILL NO COMMAND AND CONTROL ESTABLISHED: Terry Ebbert, New Orleans Homeland Security Director: “This is a national emergency. This is a national disgrace. FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can’t bail out the city of New Orleans.”
2PM CDT — MAYOR NAGIN ISSUES “DESPERATE SOS” TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT: “This is a desperate SOS. Right now we are out of resources at the convention centre and don’t anticipate enough buses. We need buses. Currently the convention centre is unsanitary and unsafe and we’re running out of supplies.”
2PM CDT — MICHAEL BROWN CLAIMS NOT TO HAVE HEARD OF REPORTS OF VIOLENCE: “I’ve had no reports of unrest, if the connotation of the word unrest means that people are beginning to riot, or you know, they’re banging on walls and screaming and hollering or burning tires or whatever. I’ve had no reports of that.”
NEW ORLEANS “DESCEND[S] INTO ANARCHY”: “Storm victims were raped and beaten, fights and fires broke out, corpses lay out in the open, and rescue helicopters and law enforcement officers were shot at as flooded-out New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday. ‘This is a desperate SOS,’ the mayor said.”
MICHAEL BROWN FINALLY LEARNS OF EVACUEES IN CONVENTION CENTER: “We learned about that (Thursday), so I have directed that we have all available resources to get that convention center to make sure that they have the food and water and medical care that they need.” [CNN]
Friday, September 2 ROVE-LED CAMPAIGN TO BLAME LOCAL OFFICIALS BEGINS: “Under the command of President Bush’s two senior political advisers, the White House rolled out a plan…to contain the political damage from the administration’s response to Hurricane Katrina.” President Bush’s comments from the Rose Garden Friday morning formed “the start of this campaign.”
EARLY AM — BUSH WATCHES DVD OF THE WEEK’S NEWSCASTS CREATED BY STAFF WHO THOUGHT BUSH “NEEDED TO SEE THE HORRIFIC REPORTS”: “The reality, say several aides who did not wish to be quoted because it might displease the president, did not really sink in until Thursday night. Some White House staffers were watching the evening news and thought the president needed to see the horrific reports coming out of New Orleans. Counselor Bartlett made up a DVD of the newscasts so Bush could see them in their entirety as he flew down to the Gulf Coast the next morning on Air Force One.”
10 AM CDT — PRESIDENT BUSH STAGES PHOTO-OP “BRIEFING”: Coast Guard helicopters and crew diverted to act as backdrop for President Bush’s photo-op.
10:35AM CDT — BUSH PRAISES MICHAEL BROWN: “Brownie, you’re doing a heck of a job.” [White House, 9/2/05]
BUSH VISIT GROUNDS FOOD AID: “Three tons of food ready for delivery by air to refugees in St. Bernard Parish and on Algiers Point sat on the Crescent City Connection bridge Friday afternoon as air traffic was halted because of President Bush’s visit to New Orleans, officials said.”
12PM CDT — BUSH “SATISFIED WITH THE RESPONSE”: “I am satisfied with the response. I am not satisfied with all the results.”
PM — FEMA’S NO. 2 OFFICIAL “IMPRESSED” WITH GOVERNMENT RESPONSE: “I am actually very impressed with the mobilization of man and machine to help our friends in this unfortunate area….I think it’s one of the most impressive search-and-rescue operations this country has ever conducted domestically.”
Saturday, September 3 SENIOR BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL LIES TO WASHINGTON POST, CLAIMS GOV. BLANCO NEVER DECLARED STATE OF EMERGENCY: The Post reported in their Sunday edition “As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.” They were forced to issue a correction hours later.
8:05PM CDT — FEMA FINALIZES BUS REQUEST: “FEMA ended up modifying the number of buses it thought it needed to get the job done, until it settled on a final request of 1,335 buses at 8:05 p.m. on Sept. 3. The buses, though, trickled into New Orleans, with only a dozen or so arriving the first day.”
CHERTOFF CLAIMS THAT NO ONE COULD HAVE PREDICTED KATRINA: Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff argues that “government planners did not predict such a disaster ever could occur.” However, scientists and others had warned of the possibility for years.
THE LOUISIANA SUPERDOME IS FULLY EVACUATED: By the time the evacuation was finished, the Superdome was in such a poor state that “inside and outside…[it] was a sea of trash up to 5 feet deep.
Monday, September 5 FORMER FIRST LADY PATRONIZES POOR REFUGEES: Former First Lady Barbara Bush says, “Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them.”
Friday, September 9 BROWN STRIPPED OF RELIEF DUTIES: FEMA chief Michael Brown is removed from his duty overseeing relief operations. He is replaced by Vice Admiral Thad Allen, chief of staff of the U.S. Coast Guard.
Monday, September 12 FEMA DIRECTOR RESIGNS: FEMA head Michael Brown resigns. Brown was “under fire over his qualifications and for what critics call a bungled response to Katrina.”
Tuesday, September 13 BUSH TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR FLAWED RESPONSE: “Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government,” Mr. Bush said. “And to the extent that the federal government didn’t fully do its job right, I take responsibility.”
Wednesday, September 14 INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIVE PANEL REJECTED: Senate Republicans voted down an attempt by Sen. Hillary Clinton “to establish an independent, bipartisan panel patterned after the 9/11 Commission to investigate” the government’s failures following Hurricane Katrina.
Thursday, September 15 BUSH ADDRESSES NATION, SAYS HIS ADMINISTRATION WILL “LEARN THE LESSONS” OF KATRINA: “This government will learn the lessons of Hurricane Katrina. We are going to review every action and make necessary changes, so that we are better prepared for any challenge of nature, or act of evil men, that could threaten our people.”
Conservative harpy Michelle Malkin on Brownie. - He admitted that he didn’t act more aggressively because as late as last Sunday he expected Katrina to be a “standard hurricane” even though the National Weather Service in New Orleans was already predicting “human suffering incredible by modern standards.”
- He proved himself utterly clueless about the disaster unfolding in New Orleans. He claimed that the federal relief effort was “going relatively well” and that the security situation in New Orleans was “pretty darn good.”
- He blamed the flood victims in New Orleans for failing to evacuate on time, even though local authorities failed to make municipal vehicles available to residents who could not drive or did not own their own cars.
“It took four days to begin a large-scale evacuation of people stranded in the Superdome stadium and to bring in significant amounts of food and water to an American city easily accessible by motorway,” the Observer notes. “Relief agencies took half that time to reach Indonesia after the Boxing Day tsunami. ”
Although the delay was not entirely the fault of the Bush Administration, Brown’s complacency clearly didn’t help. And his bumbling statements after the hurricane struck have not inspired confidence.
This is not the time to give a weak performer the benefit of the doubt. The FEMA director’s role in the ongoing recovery effort is too important to be entrusted to a clueless political hack with such poor judgment.
The kicker for me, however, was Brownie being interviewed by Brian Williams on NBC Nightly News on Wed, Aug 31st, where he learned right there - live on air - from Brian effing Williams that there were thousands of evacuees at the convention center with no supplies, food or water - something the media had been reporting for at least 24 hours.
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| | | 9 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 10:39
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What did Blanco ask for that was not given? In the other posts it seemed simpled, you need water, here is water. During Katrina, Blanco didn't want the people stay at the convention center and held back supplies.
PD, Blanco even admits calling up the National Guard late.
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| | | 10 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 10:50
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can you not read?
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| | | 11 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 10:55
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Jag, link please. Every report I've seen or read says otherwise.
Your fixation of possible Democratic wrongdoing blinds you to FEMA's role in the disaster.
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| | | 12 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 11:02
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FEMA trailers with high levels of mold & formaldahye
Of course, this is Blanco's fault for asking for help.
The irony of a Republican like Jag defending an incompetent federal agency who wasted millions while congratulating themselves for a job well done seems lost to Jag...
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| | | 13 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 11:27
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Nice one PD, you should bring this topic to the Impeachment thread 'Trailer Faucet Leaks, Creates Mold, Bush to Blame' I think we should have a Congressional investigation on this one. Again, I am not a Bush fan, but someone has to address these nonsensical posts.
Blanco admits calling Guard late
I may not be a fan of Bush, but the thought of the Dems putting someone like Blanco in office is frightening, very frightening.
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| | | 14 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 11:29
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During Katrina, Blanco didn't want the people stay at the convention center and held back supplies.
Please provide a link showing that Blanco held back supplies.
In the other posts it seemed simpled, you need water, here is water.
One would think.
'Stuck in Atlanta' The heart-rending pictures broadcast from the Gulf Coast drew offers of every possible kind of help. But FEMA found itself accused repeatedly of putting bureaucratic niceties ahead of getting aid to those who desperately needed it.
Hundreds of firefighters, who responded to a nationwide call for help in the disaster, were held by the federal agency in Atlanta for days of training on community relations and sexual harassment before being sent on to the devastated area. The delay, some volunteers complained, meant lives were being lost in New Orleans.
"On the news every night you hear, 'How come everybody forgot us?' " said Joseph Manning, a firefighter from Washington, Pa., told The Dallas Morning News. "We didn't forget. We're stuck in Atlanta drinking beer."
Ms. Rule, the FEMA spokeswoman, said there was no urgency for the firefighters to arrive because they were primarily going to do community relations work, not rescue.
William D. Vines, a former mayor of Fort Smith, Ark., helped deliver food and water to areas hit by the hurricane. But he said FEMA halted two trailer trucks carrying thousands of bottles of water to Camp Beauregard, near Alexandria, La., a staging area for the distribution of supplies.
"FEMA would not let the trucks unload," Mr. Vines said in an interview. "The drivers were stuck for several days on the side of the road about 10 miles from Camp Beauregard. FEMA said we had to have a 'tasker number.' What in the world is a tasker number? I have no idea. It's just paperwork, and it's ridiculous."
Senator Blanche Lincoln, Democrat of Arkansas, who interceded on behalf of Mr. Vines, said, "All our Congressional offices have had difficulty contacting FEMA. Governors' offices have had difficulty contacting FEMA." When the state of Arkansas repeatedly offered to send buses and planes to evacuate people displaced by flooding, she said, "they were told they could not go. I don't really know why."
On Aug. 31, Sheriff Edmund M. Sexton, Sr., of Tuscaloosa County, Ala., and president of the National Sheriffs' Association, sent out an alert urging members to pitch in.
"Folks were held up two, three days while they were working on the paperwork," he said.
Some sheriffs refused to wait. In Wayne County, Mich., which includes Detroit, Sheriff Warren C. Evans got a call from Mr. Sexton on Sept. 1 The next day, he led a convoy of six tractor-trailers, three rental trucks and 33 deputies, despite public pleas from Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm to wait for formal requests.
"I could look at CNN and see people dying, and I couldn't in good conscience wait for a coordinated response," he said. He dropped off food, water and medical supplies in Mobile and Gonzales, La., where a sheriffs' task force directed him to the French Quarter. By Saturday, Sept. 3, the Michigan team was conducting search and rescue missions.
"We lost thousands of lives that could have been saved," Sheriff Evans said.
Mr. Knocke said the Department of Homeland Security could not yet respond to complaints that red tape slowed relief.
"It is testament to the generosity of the American people - a lot of people wanted to contribute," Mr. Knocke said. "But there is not really any way of knowing at this time if or whether individual offers were plugged into the response and recovery operation."
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| | | 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 11:47
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Jag, one doesn't impeach agency heads. You fire them.
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| | | 16 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 12:18
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I was watching the news when a representative from the Red Cross said they were blocked from entering New Orleans by state Homeland Security officals. It was later reported several agencies were against the Red Cross entering, including the Red Cross themselves, because of lack of security, which would of not of been an issue if the National Guard had deployed sooner. Sorry guys , but almost every issue you bring up, falls back on local Government. Except for PD 's pick on formaldahye trailers, which has been an on going problems for years, and mold from a leaky faucet.
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| | | 17 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 12:34
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You mean state government, I believe. If you can't distinguish you are going to continue to have the same problems that you have been.
So you don't see the head of FEMA finding out about the lack of facilities at the Superdome from a reporter to be a problem?
You don't think that it was a problem that FEMA's head was a strict political appointee, whose previous job was as head of the International Arabian Horse Association?
You don't think that FEMA should have followed the December 2004 agreement, which gave the federal government the authority to completely bypass all state & local authority when it came to search & rescue, setting up shelters, delivery of food, water & medical supplies, even without a request from local or state authorities?
You're right: the trailers were a problem for years. In fact, that is the problem--FEMA knew they were unsafe and used them anyway.
FEMA's slow and half-hearted response was a problem at the top, where Brown seemed to never understand the magnitude of the problem, asking, in one exchange, if there was something he needed to "tweak" in the federal response.
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| | | 18 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 12:53
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Formaldahye in trailers has been an issue forever, for all trailers.
If the Superdome was an evacuation site, it should of been stock piled way before Katrina. You do not want the Federal Government taking control of diaster areas, I repeat LOCAL GOVERNMENT ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE LOGISTICS OF THEIR AREA. Now if you want to pass bill for extraordinary circumstances, like when you have a completely incompetent Democrat in office, we can do this and call it the Blanco Bill. With all that said, the Bush administration still came across as idiots and should of pulled the plug on Blanco.
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| | | 19 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 12:58
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Uh, there was already an agreement in place for FEMA to step in. Why? THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS BETTER ABLE TO COORDINATE RELIEF FROM NON-DISASTER AREAS.
Jeez. This isn't hard. I realize that you are unwilling (or unable) to stop yourself from blaming Democrats when there is a lot of blame to go around. But your unwillingness to blame FEMA for literally anything when Bush fired their head over his disaster response speaks volumes.
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| | | 20 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 09:06
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Republicans seem to resign rather quickly to avoid scandal for their party, whether that scandal be legitimate or manufactored by the Democrats, such as the A.G. scandal.
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| | | 21 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 09:16
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Republicans seem to resign rather quickly to avoid scandal for their party
Sure, like Duke Cunningham. And his buddy Duncan Hunter, also knee deep with indicted scum Brent Wilkes and Dusty Foggo, not only doesn't resign, he runs for president.
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| | | 22 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 09:48
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Trent Lott is a better example. He tried to compliment an old colleague and was branded a racist. Very hypocritical, considering one of the Democrat's leaders is a Klans men.
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| | | 23 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 10:13
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PD, I agree with you, the federal government should of taken over operations from what was a mentally challenge Governor, but I would not want them doing the same in states like Florida and California, where natural diasters are a common occurance and we have competent people to handle it.
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| | | 24 | weykool
ID: 2842717 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 11:17
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Bush fired their head over his disaster response speaks volumes.
If mistakes were made I have no problem with finding out why and making corrections so as not to make the same mistakes when we face the next disaster.
The real shame of the Katrina disaster was people trying to score politial points off the plight and deaths of the victims. The only volume to which the firing of the head of FEMA speaks is the lengths to which polititians will go to gain power and exploit innocent victims.
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| | | 25 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 11:31
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#23: They should have taken over operations because that was the agreement for them to do so. There is no such agreement in Florida, and Florida's history of dealing with natural disasters, I think, is a model for others to follow. Democrat or Republican, Florida governors have been on the ball for a long time.
The real shame of the Katrina disaster was people trying to score politial points off the plight and deaths of the victims.
Yeah, the scammers (local and those who oozed their way in) deserve no less than jail.
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| | | 26 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 11:39
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I find it interesting that i see no mention of the coast guard in this thread
Hundreds of firefighters, who responded to a nationwide call for help in the disaster, were held by the federal agency in Atlanta for days of training on community relations and sexual harassment before being sent on to the devastated area. The delay, some volunteers complained, meant lives were being lost in New Orleans.
Is this the part where being PC causes people to die, oh i am sure it is...
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| | | 27 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 11:51
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I really don't know too much about the Coast Guard, or what it does in these kinds of situations. Can you enlighten me?
No joke--I really don't know their role in these kinds of multi-state disasters.
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| | | 28 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 11:57
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I find it interesting that i see no mention of the coast guard in this thread
Hundreds of firefighters, who responded to a nationwide call for help in the disaster, were held by the federal agency in Atlanta for days of training on community relations and sexual harassment before being sent on to the devastated area. The delay, some volunteers complained, meant lives were being lost in New Orleans.
Is this the part where being PC causes people to die, oh i am sure it is...
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| | | 29 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 13:46
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Deja vu!
As I mentioned above, it is the "liberals" in this forum taking FEMA to task (including actions such as you point out in 26 & 28), while the uber-Republican is defending them. A bigger irony I haven't seen in some time!
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| | | 31 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 14:06
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Sorry about the double post i am not sure how that happened.
good story from time
the biggest difference from what i have read and been told by friends in the coast guard is that they do not have to wait. if there is something wrong and in there area they go out and do something. there chain of command is much shorter they do not have to get approvals go out. i would assume this process came about from the fact that if you had to wait for approvals to rescue a sinking ship then no one gets rescued. My friends dad was stationed in new orleans when katrina hit and even though they evacuated for the storm they got a call from comanding officer to get back here and if you left for far distance report to nearier or easier station to help there. I am kind of biased for CG but in many ways they are the american version of the mounties.
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| | | 32 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 17:48
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Trent Lott is a better example. He tried to compliment an old colleague and was branded a racist. Very hypocritical, considering one of the Democrat's leaders is a Klans men.
Trent Lott is an example that Republicans seem to resign rather quickly to avoid scandal for their party?
First off, Trent Lott wasn't branded a racist, he is a racist and proud of it.
"I want to say this about my state. When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years either."
As for Byrd, why am I not suprised that you are incapable of subjugating the verb "to be?" Even the despicable Michele Malkin uses the proper term ex-Klansman(no fewer than 12 times) so your accusation is a Klans men is over 60 years off the mark. Byrd may still be a racist, but in 2005 he stated:
"I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."
compared to Lott's apology in 2002:
"I regret the way it has been interpreted."
Regardless, none of this has anything to do with Republicans resigning quickly to avoid scandal for their party. Lott resigning the Senate Majority leadership position wasn't a scandal. It was the result of an avowed racist losing support from most Senate Republicans and Bush( to their credit), although they did make him Chairman of the Senate Rules Committee, a less prestigious but still powerful position.
Now, how about you address the Duncan Hunter/Duke Cunningham/Brent Wilkes/Dusty Foggo scandal? You know, the one when your favorite fired prosecutor Carol Lam said after the Wilkes/Foggo indictment:
“These two indictments describe patterns of self-dealing and corruption that spanned years and reached deep into our country's systems of procurement in the defense industry”
Spanned years. Somehow that doesn't quite jibe with resigned quickly.
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| | | 33 | bibA
ID: 171119316 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 19:03
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Jag - One is left with the impression that you do not feel that Brown did anything short of a competent job.
So, would he be the type person you would want appointed as head of FEMA? He would be satisfacory to you in this position if the next president again wanted to give him this position?
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| | | 34 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 19:04
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Duke is a jackass.
I guess if someone compliments Ted Kennedy they are pro DWI and manslaughter.
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| | | 35 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 20:19
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I guess if someone compliments Ted Kennedy they are pro DWI and manslaughter.
Your guess would be correct if that person said, "We're proud of Teddy's driving record. If more people drove like Teddy this country wouldn't have all these problems over all these years either."
Duke is a jackass.
Don't know. Obviously he felt secure in his criminal enterprise since his fellow Republican congressman, Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services committee, was feeding at the same Wilkes/Foggo/Wade trough and awarding millions in defense contracts(many the Pentagon didn't even want)in return.
But you go ahead and wallow in the 40 year old Ted Kennedy scandal. Then give us all a big laugh and tell us you're a moderate again.
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| | | 37 | yesno
ID: 261013016 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 20:21
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"I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the Southern people to break down segregation and admit the nigger race into our theaters, into our swimming pools, into our homes, and into our churches."
Strom Thurmond in 1948, the year he ran for president.
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| | | 38 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 21:17
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as someone said there was plenty of blame to go around and Brown, Blanco, and Nagin were incompetent. But there is also history in the people's mind that played an important role in the amount of death that resulted from the storm. the last few storms that came close to NO turned and left all the partiers laughing at the evacuees. each time increasing the amount of believers that ithe storm would turn. i was called up to assist in NO and it was a mess, we were delayed and slept on the flightline in hammond for about 30 hours due to lack of infrastructure for the people wanting to assist. i don't think anyone can compare the disasters that were mentioned above to the problems created by the magnitude of damage, the water that wasn't moving, and all of the unforeseen problems. we can always in hindsight say that this should have been known and that should have been known but I bet there are still no bladders of water or some type of sewer bladders or cases of MREs in the superdome. the response may have been slow but the fraud that ensued over the next year was outrageous and has been reported very little.
PV- what in Lott's statement says anything in reference to race
and can anyone on either side say that they don't have their fair share of scandals so why are we embroiled in the ol your scandal is bigger than mine.
i also find it funny that the same people that say the govt was incompetent for not being able to evacuate 1.5 million people in 4 days also say that it is impossible to evacuate 10 million over a 2 year period.
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| | | 39 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 21:43
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PV- what in Lott's statement says anything in reference to race
You've got to be kidding. In the future use ;) at the end of such statements.
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| | | 40 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 22:19
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i ask again
I want to say this about my state. When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years either.
What in this statement is racist without interpretation?
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| | | 41 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 22:51
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see post 39
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| | | 42 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 22:54
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Here's a hint: "n"
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| | | 43 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Mon, Dec 03, 2007, 23:57
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would that be for want, when, ran, president, country, wouldn't, or is there another "n" in PV's quote.
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| | | 44 | WiddleAvi
ID: 2010282021 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 00:00
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He meant post 37
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| | | 45 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 00:04
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wasn't lott's stmt try again
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| | | 46 | Perm Dude
ID: 51111428 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 00:20
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You're talking about his non-apology for his statement? Or the original statement, that he still believes if we'd voted for an outright racist like Thurmond that we'd be better off as a country?
Perhaps you mean his 1992 Keynote Address at the Council for Concerned Citizens, a white separatist group, in which he stated "The people in this room stand for the right principles and the right philosophy… Let's take it in the right direction and our children will be the beneficiaries!"
How about his quote about people on talk radio and bloggers (from both sides) who roundly criticized his immigration bill: "Talk radio and one hit wonder internet gurus are running America. We have to deal with that problem." Deal with, Senator?
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| | | 47 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 00:46
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huh, PV gave the quote and stated that it was racist and stated that he apologized for how it was interpreted as opposed to apologizing and i was making the point that without interpretation it is not a racist statement.
ooooohhh talk radio and one hit internet gurus now that is racist.
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| | | 48 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 00:58
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statement of principles of the council of concerned citizens
The American men and women who make up the Council of Conservative Citizens (CofCC) believe in, commit themselves to, and pledge to work for and support these fundamental principles of American civilization, liberty, justice, and national
(1) We believe the United States is a Christian country. We believe that the United States of America is a Christian country, that its people are a Christian people, and that its government and public leaders at all levels must reflect Christian beliefs and values. We therefore oppose all efforts to deny or weaken the Christian heritage of the United States, including the unconstitutional prohibitions of prayers and other religious expression in schools and other public institutions.
(2) We believe the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people. We believe that the United States derives from and is an integral part of European civilization and the European people and that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character. We therefore oppose the massive immigration of non-European and non-Western peoples into the United States that threatens to transform our nation into a non-European majority in our lifetime. We believe that illegal immigration must be stopped, if necessary by military force and placing troops on our national borders; that illegal aliens must be returned to their own countries; and that legal immigration must be severely restricted or halted through appropriate changes in our laws and policies. We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called “affirmative action” and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races.
(3) The United States is a sovereign and independent nation. We believe the United States is a sovereign and independent nation, that our independence as a nation is the most precious legacy of our Founding Fathers, and that all treaties, agreements, conventions, international organizations, and institutions must recognize and respect our national sovereignty and independence. We therefore oppose the so-called “New World Order” and its attempts to abolish national sovereignty and independence and to construct a one-world state in which America would vanish and Americans would be enslaved. We call for the U.S. government to withdraw from membership in the United Nations, the World Court, the International Monetary Fund, NAFTA, and the World Trade Organization. We oppose any attempt to place American military personnel under foreign command. We oppose any effort to place Americans, military or civilian, on trial before, or subject them to legal punishments by, international courts or organizations. We oppose, and we support official U.S. renunciation of, any treaty, agreement, or convention that seeks to dictate law to the United States or any state, that violates national sovereignty, or denies or violates the constitutional rights of Americans.
(4) The United States is a constitutional republic. We believe the United States is a constitutional republic, governed by law and by the original intent of the United States Constitution and of the men who framed it. We believe the Constitution can be changed only by the proper procedure of amendment or constitutional convention and not by court decision, popular majority, political whim, or legislative fiat. We therefore oppose the “imperial judiciary” in the U.S. Supreme Court and the federal courts that has usurped more and more power to itself in the last century and has imposed on our country the most odious and harmful rulings. We reject the legitimacy and constitutionality of the rulings handed down by the imperial judiciary; we support the appointment of judges and justices who are qualified to interpret the Constitution and the laws and are committed to their proper interpretation; and we support the impeachment of judges and justices who usurp or claim powers not granted them by the Constitution. We also oppose the “imperial bureaucracy” that imposes unconstitutional administrative decrees in such fields as business, agriculture, labor, and education that tyrannically interfere with personal liberty and dignity, private property, the sanctity of the family, and ethical conduct. We support the abolition of those government agencies at the federal, state, and local levels that have no constitutional foundation, including the U.S. Departments of Education, Housing and Urban Development, Energy, Health and Human Services, and similar agencies. We support the separation of powers that is a fundamental principle of the U.S. Constitution and of basic human liberty. We support the restoration of the constitutionally proper balance among the three branches of the federal government and the reduction of their powers, size, personnel, and costs to the limits intended by the Constitution.
(5) We believe in States’ Rights, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and the Bill of Rights. We believe in states’ rights, as guaranteed by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution; in the individual right to keep and bear arms, as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the Constitution; and in all the rights and liberties guaranteed by the body of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We therefore oppose all efforts by the federal government to dictate to the states and local governments and communities, and we oppose federal efforts to engineer or impose behavior and beliefs on citizens and communities. We oppose “gun control” in all forms and demand that all such legislation and policies be repealed. We also oppose all such legislation as so-called “hate crime” or “bias crime” laws. Such laws merely penalize thought and expression rather than genuinely criminal action and are a dangerous and frightening step toward government Thought Control. Similarly, we oppose all so-called “politically correct” speech codes and “sensitivity training” in schools, colleges, universities, and businesses that punish free expression, restrict thought and study, intimidate dissent, and generally demean and diminish human communications and community. We also oppose, as stated, all efforts to deny Americans their rights of religious expression and worship as guaranteed in the First Amendment, as well as efforts to deny rights of assembly and association.
(6) The traditional family is the basic unit of human society. We believe in the traditional family as the basic unit of human society and morality, and we oppose all efforts by the state and other powers to weaken the structure of the American family through toleration of sexual licentiousness, homosexuality and other perversions, mixture of the races, pornography in all forms, and subversion of the authority of parents.
(7) Private property and free enterprise are the foundations of our economy. We believe in private property and free enterprise as the foundations of our economic life and the basis of American wealth. We oppose efforts by the state to regulate, plan, manage, control, or nationalize private property in any form. We oppose the ruinous taxation that government has imposed on working Americans and we call for real tax reform that will allow working men and women to retain what they have earned. We support the repeal of the estate tax. We affirm that the best economic decision-maker is the individual acting in what he believes is his own best interest. We believe that tax policies and other economic legislation and policies should reflect the importance of small businessmen, the family farm, and other independent, locally and privately owned and operated enterprises. While we accept the need for some public welfare, health care, unemployment, and old age assistance, we believe in such programs only as a last resort for those who truly need them. We believe tax laws should encourage private charity rather than public support for the poor, the disabled, and the sick and elderly who are unable to care for themselves. We support welfare programs that seek to return recipients of welfare to productive work as soon as possible. We oppose all welfare for immigrants, whether legal or illegal.
(8) Cultural, national, and racial integrity. We support the cultural and national heritage of the United States and the race and civilization of which it is a part, as well as the expression and celebration of the legitimate subcultures and ethnic and regional identities of our people. We oppose all efforts to discredit, “debunk,” denigrate, ridicule, subvert, or express disrespect for that heritage. We believe public monuments and symbols should reflect the real heritage of our people, and not a politically convenient, inaccurate, insulting, or fictitious heritage.
(9) A Strong National Defense. We believe in the strongest possible defense for the United States. We oppose the presence of homosexuals and women in the military services and especially of women in combat roles. We believe that in the aftermath of the U.S. victory over Soviet Communism, the United States has little need to retain the political and military commitments to allies made during the Cold War. While we wish these allies well, we believe we cannot continue to support their defense budgets, guarantee their security, fight their wars, or finance their governments and economies through foreign aid. We therefore call for a comprehensive review of all U.S. diplomatic commitments and U.S. withdrawal from those alliances and commitments that no longer serve our national interests or that threaten to entangle us in unnecessary foreign wars, conflicts, and quarrels. We therefore oppose continued membership in NATO and similar outdated Cold War alliances; we oppose sending American troops on U.N. peace-keeping missions or into similar unconstitutionally undeclared wars under the names of “police actions.” We oppose sending American military personnel into wars and conflicts that do not concern our national security and interests. We oppose ever sending American military men into combat without the intention to achieve victory. We oppose using American prisoners of war as diplomatic “bargaining chips” under any circumstances, and we oppose abandoning American POWs to merciless enemies after the cessation of conflict to suit the political interests of office-holders. We oppose all foreign aid and call for its termination. We support the investigation of lobbying groups that represent the interests of foreign states or foreign powers and the enactment of legislation that will outlaw lobbying Congress or the executive branch on behalf of foreign states.
(10) America First Foreign Policy. We believe that in the aftermath of the U.S. victory over Soviet Communism, the United States has little need to retain the political and military commitments to allies made during the Cold War. While we wish these allies well, we believe we cannot continue to support their defense budgets, guarantee their security, fight their wars, or finance their governments and economies through foreign aid. We therefore call for a comprehensive review of all U.S. diplomatic commitments and U.S. withdrawal from those alliances and commitments that no longer serve our national interests or that threaten to entangle us in unnecessary foreign wars, conflicts, and quarrels. We therefore oppose continued membership in NATO and similar outdated Cold War alliances; we oppose sending American troops on U.N. peace-keeping missions or into similar unconstitutionally undeclared wars under the names of “police actions.” We oppose sending American military personnel into wars and conflicts that do not concern our national security and interests. We oppose ever sending American military men into combat without the intention to achieve victory. We oppose using American prisoners of war as diplomatic “bargaining chips” under any circumstances, and we oppose abandoning American POWs to merciless enemies after the cessation of conflict to suit the political interests of office-holders. We oppose all foreign aid and call for its termination. We support the investigation of lobbying groups that represent the interests of foreign states or foreign powers and the enactment of legislation that will outlaw lobbying Congress or the executive branch on behalf of foreign states.
(11) America First Trade Policy. We believe that just as our nation has legitimate international political and military interests, so it also has a legitimate international economic interest. We believe our trade policy should reflect our national economic interest and that the protection of our economy, including the jobs of our workers, our farms, and our manufacturing industries, is a vitally necessary duty of our national government.
(12) Traditional Education under Local Control. We believe that education is primarily the concern of parents and families and local communities and therefore we oppose federal aid to education and federal efforts to control or direct education. We believe that education should inform and build the mind and character, not brainwash children with political propaganda or “liberate” them from the traditional values and loyalties their families have taught them. We therefore oppose all “sex education” as well as so-called “multiculturalist” and “Afrocentric” curricula, “Outcome-Based Education,” and similar radical indoctrination in the schools. We oppose all efforts to inflate grades, adulterate or “dumb down” tests and examinations, and introduce irrelevant and wasteful courses for the purpose of advancing some backward students over others more talented or more productive. We believe the schools, public, private, and parochial, should teach students to be proud of being Americans and proud of their national and local identities, and that they should instill in them the values of Western, Christian, and American civilization. We support the authority of teachers and school administrators to discipline students, including the authority to expel them from school if students will not abide by the rules and laws of the community. We support the right of parents to send their children to private schools or to educate their children at home if they so desire, without government intrusion or control. We support the right of private schools to select their own students, faculty, curricula, standards, and methods of administration.
(13) Strong and Just Law Enforcement. We believe in the moral and legal responsibility of the individual and therefore that good behavior should be rewarded and bad behavior should be punished. We believe the most effective and most just response to crime is swift, certain, and morally appropriate punishment. We believe in capital punishment for the crimes of murder, rape, treason, and espionage. We oppose the substitution of the pseudo-sciences of psychiatry, sociology, and “rehabilitation” for real justice. We believe law enforcement should be mainly a function of local and state government, and we therefore oppose all efforts to establish a national police force or to nationalize law enforcement; we oppose similar efforts to create a global or international police force and to “globalize” law enforcement. We oppose the extradition of law-abiding American citizens to trials before foreign courts under laws to which they have never assented. We oppose all international criminal tribunals and all efforts to diminish national sovereignty through the internationalization of criminal law. While we support and deeply respect all law enforcement officers, we also insist that law enforcement at all levels operate within the law, that law enforcement respect the rights of all citizens, and that spying on and harassment of loyal and law-abiding citizens by law enforcement agencies, by the military services, or by intelligence services at any level of government should be strictly forbidden and severely punished.
(14) Protection of the Environment and Natural Heritage. We believe that the natural environment and resources of a nation are among its most precious, valuable, and irreplaceable treasures. We believe in the protection of the environment from reckless greed as well as from irresponsible government. We support the protection of truly endangered species of wildlife and areas of natural beauty.
I can agree with about 90% of these principles with only 8-10 ridiculous sentences that most of us can agree are over the top.
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| | | 49 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 09:41
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(2)We believe the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people. We believe that the United States derives from and is an integral part of European civilization and the European people and that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character.....
We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind
According to J-Bar speak, without interpretation this is not a racist statement. I'm curious how one could oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind and not be deemed a racist.
There's no diminishing the statement as over the top. It's blatantly racist and a basic tenet of the group's philosophy, exactly the same as Thurmond's 1948 Dixiecrat platform which Lott was proud to vote for. So when J-Bar says interpretation, what he actually means is spin.
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| | | 51 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 10:06
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Where does J-Bar say this is not a racist statement?
To quote J-Bar...
I can agree with about 90% of these principles with only 8-10 ridiculous sentences that most of us can agree are over the top.
That is a very fair and accurate statement, by J-Bar, that does not need to be bastardize.
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| | | 52 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 10:19
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Since J-Bar doesn't identify which sentences he feels are over the top, and since the introduction of the Council of Conservative Citizens was presented as evidence of Trent Lott's association with racist organizations, the bastardization occurring is Jag's usual attempt to deny common sense as a basis for discussion.
The 90% of the principles that J-Bar says he agrees with are irrelevant to the debate, since the subject being discussed is racism.
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| | | 53 | Perm Dude
ID: 3112549 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 10:25
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We believe the United States is a Christian country
Er, right from the top they are wrong. A "Christian country" wouldn't have a Constitution with a Free Exercise clause. A "Christian country," in its setup, would look a lot like deeply Muslim countries, in fact, in which laws are interpreted (and actions are judged) by a group of unelected religious men who would impose strict religious law on the land.
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| | | 54 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 10:35
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J-Bar was talking about Lott's endorsement of Strom Thurmond's 1948 Presidential run in discussing what was not a racist statement "without interpretation".
If you endorse a candidate (Lott was not talking about the lesser of two evils - he was proud to vote for Thurmond) it means you endorse and support his platform. Thurmond's was an explecitly, overtly racist platform.
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| | | 55 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 11:08
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I reread their doctrine and after further review, I agree, a lot more than 90% is wacko, but we could debate for years the exact percentage and the number of sentences, that are 'over the top'. The gist of J-Bar comment is there are many worthwhile principles and on that I agree.
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| | | 56 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 11:10
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(12)..... We therefore oppose all “sex education” as well as so-called “multiculturalist” and “Afrocentric” curricula,..... that they should instill in them the values of Western, Christian, and American civilization.
I'm guessing by American civilization, they don't mean Sioux, Shoshone, Inuvik, Mayan or Incan.
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| | | 57 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 13:40
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Let me slow down for those that like to take a tangent and run. Mith was partially right. PV gave Lott's quote (please see above) and stated that Byrd apologized and was alright because of it and that Lott just apologized for the interpretation. my whole point was for someone to tell me what in his statement was racist (literally) w/o interpretation. (and nobody did)
Here is the platform, maybe he was referring to the adherence to the constitution but that would take interpretation. thurmond's platform
another 5 points that could be on my platform (1,2,3, last sentence of 4,7 and 8)
I did not count the words and points of the CCC but Jag had it right, 60, 70, 80, whatever percentage you like but some of the principles do match my own.
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| | | 58 | Perm Dude
ID: 221145412 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 13:45
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Conservative racists would probably match up quite a bit, J. But Strom's strong segregationist poltics (which he never gave up) was what makes this a policy of people you don't want to find yourself agreeing with, speaking to, or advocating, all of which Lott continued to do and never apologized for ("I'm sorry I was misinterpreted" is not an apology but a collection of weasel words).
I hesitate to drop the H word, but there are probably plenty of Hitler's politics one might agree with. But his racist politics and philosophy should make it all moot. We don't look to find areas of agreement with racists.
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| | | 59 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 13:53
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oh and please be consistent when Senator Obama states in his book about following Malcolm X's call let's all associate all of the tenets on the Nation of Islam to him. That's right, not fair unless that is your interpretation.
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| | | 60 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 13:58
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i agree PD but to say that statement was racist w/o interpretation was wrong. I do not associate myself with those groups and you are correct in stating what you did. 59 was sent prior to reading 58 not a response to it.
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| | | 61 | Perm Dude
ID: 221145412 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 14:03
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I think what you might not be catching with the statement is that Strom Thurmond was known primarily as being a white extremist at the time--he was virtually a one-issue guy. He broke from the Democratic Party because he felt they were coddling the "niggers" and this was almost 20 years before the Civil Rights Act.
It was almost a code word: Strom Thurmond was about racial segragation and everything else (states rights, etc) was about accomplishing that goal.
I think you understand completely how those groups operate and how one wants to disassociate yourself from them comletely. But historically Strom was a deep part of that mindset, which Lott was praising.
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| | | 62 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 14:08
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What did Obama say about "following Malcom X' call"?
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| | | 63 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 15:10
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PV gave Lott's quote (please see above) and stated that Byrd apologized and was alright because of it
Where did I say Byrd was alright because of it? My words:
Byrd may still be a racist, but in 2005 he stated:
"I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."
You are truly the spinmeister, J-Bar. Absolutely nowhere did I say Byrd was alright, OK, groovy or bitchin. In fact I conjectured that Byrd might still be a racist.
Now, let's dissect your admiration for the Dixiecrat platform.
#1 - Generic rhetoric, not a policy statement
#2 - We oppose all efforts to invade or destroy the rights guaranteed by it to every citizen of this country.
That, of course, is a lie, because they omitted white before citizen. Do you honestly believe that the Dixiecrats guaranteed the rights of a black man to marry a white woman?
#3 - Here we get the first mention of a Police State. The Dixiecrat interpretation of a Police state was that civil rights laws would be enacted and enforced thereby guaranteeing social and economic justice which they supposedly stood for. What's incredibly evil about their position is that the police in the South at the time, almost 100% white, were essential in not only denying blacks of their civil rights, but were perpetrators of crimes against them. So the Dixiecrats feared a Police state would interfere with their Police State.
#4 - last sentence. We favor home-rule, local self-government, and a minimum interference with individual rights.
That means if you caught your white daughter having sex with a black man, there would be minimum intereference with the individual's right to lynch that man on the nearest tree.
#7&8 - Basically more paranoid talk about a Police state, and a desire to keep Jim Crow laws on the books and to deny rights to blacks.
Every time the issue of rights is presented in the platform, it must be qualified with the opening sentence of #4 - We stand for the segragation of the races and the racial integrity(Ha) of each race - which renders any part of the platform that deals with rights, individual or collective, moot.
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| | | 64 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 16:45
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excuse me pv that i inferred that you accepted Byrd's apology and not Lott's by the way you compared the two.
and by the way i didn't use the word admiration
I appreciate your interpretation but the literal words is what i was referring to. you say they forgot the word white i could care less the words say all citizens. also i believe thurmond was instrumental in prosecuting lynching and abolishing the poll tax.
i do believe that Thurmond was a racist but not of the evil kind and i still say that the statement of Lott's w/o interpretation is not racist because the word problems can refer to a great many things.
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| | | 65 | Perm Dude
ID: 221145412 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 16:57
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Well, then, I think you would have been very suprised, back then, to find what their real goals were. Too bad they had to spell it out more explicitely for you.
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| | | 66 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 20:29
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I wonder how much of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto, the Liberals here would agreed with?
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| | | 67 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 21:02
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we can judge a platform in 1948 by todays standards and no doubt it looks very ugly. we will be judged in 2065 and some of the platforms will probably look real ugly. from what little i have read 22% of the black vote in south carolina voted for thurmond in 1996 and that he was not considered, at the time, an enemy of the black community when he was governor even though he was a seperatist. i am not here to defend anybody especially somebody that i do not know much about. the only point i was making was calling PV out on his bias. end of point back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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| | | 68 | Perm Dude
ID: 221145412 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 21:31
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I understand your point about changing mores over time, but if Thurmond had his way in 1948 (remember, Lott was praising the 1948 Thurmond) no blacks would have voted in South Carolina in 1996. And while 22% sounds high (in fact, it was the highest percentage of any Republican in South Carolina), the fact that no black Republicans even ran for office in that state, on any level that I can find, says something as well. So does the fact that 78% voted for his opponent.
In these days of a 51% "mandate" this says a lot!
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| | | 69 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 22:00
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the only point i was making was calling PV out on his bias.
What bias? If there was any bias advanced, it was Jag, with his:
He tried to compliment an old colleague and was branded a racist. Very hypocritical, considering one of the Democrat's leaders is a Klans men.
Again, note the word is, in complete denial of Byrd's public position of admitting a mistake, as opposed to Lott's 2002 statement of proud support for Thurmond's platform of segregation(racism) in 1948.
So your attempt to call me out for bias was misdirected, since the obvious bias was displayed by Jag, in his never-ending quest to promote myopia as a political ideology.
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| | | 70 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 22:14
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For what it is worth, I have a friend who is from South Carolina, went to West Point, worked for Strom Thurman in his DC Senate office, and is black. He was very accustomed to raised eyebrows. He said on a personal level, Strom was pretty good when dealing with black people in the 90's.
No one should be proud that they supported this man back in 1948.
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| | | 71 | J-Bar
ID: 310172921 Tue, Dec 04, 2007, 23:09
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that's not true from what i read PD as governor he abolished the poll tax which kept lots of black people from voting. but who cares
PV- still trying to bring in the interpretation
SZ-i really do not believe Lott was old enough to support him in 48.
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| | | 72 | Jag
ID: 14828255 Wed, Dec 05, 2007, 13:32
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J-Bar, you will not get a response. Lott could of been talking about one of a hundred problems, but, PV likes to think the worse, when it come to Republicans.
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| | | 73 | boikin
ID: 59831214 Wed, Dec 05, 2007, 14:19
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For what it is worth, I have a friend who is from South Carolina, went to West Point, worked for Strom Thurman in his DC Senate office, and is black. He was very accustomed to raised eyebrows. He said on a personal level, Strom was pretty good when dealing with black people in the 90's.
this should come as not surpise as he did have an affair with atleast one black women...I will say one positive thing about thurman, the man was probably a racist and surely believe in seperation, but at least had the deciency to come out and admit it. Considering that most politicians in all of america where racists at some level in 48.
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| | | 74 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Wed, Dec 05, 2007, 21:16
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PV likes to think the worse, when it come to Republicans.
Then how do you explain two of my top three candidates for President in 2008 being Republicans - Romney and Paul?
I'm on record in the 2008 candidates thread.
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