| Posted by: biliruben
- [5610442715] Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 14:20
Old thread. Getting. Too. Heavy. Uuh!
Where we at now?
Vs. 
AND
Vs.

Those GOPS were so hunky. But so was Anakin, I suppose. |
| 2 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 14:35
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and of ocurse Box, a website dedicated to promoting Plan "A", is going to provide unbiased info re Plan "A"? uhhhhh Somehow, the skeptic in me rather doubts that.
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| 3 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 14:57
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The fair tax isn't particularly fair, and it's pretty much unworkable in reality. Sure, they toss a tax rebate to the poor, but the poor already don't pay taxes.
The main problem: I think there is some strong evidence that once a sales tax gets into double digits, you start growing a black market to avoid the tax altogether.
Which would make you raise tax higher to try to enforce it in every bodega in the country and make up for the lost revenue.
Which would make the black-market grow larger.
Which would make you raise the tax...
You get the picture. Unworkable.
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| 4 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 15:07
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Boxman #408 from the last thread:
This should help.... 23 or 30 Percent?
I understand the concept of the inclusive rate. To the average person -- to 90% of Americans -- when Huckabee tells them a 23% sales tax, how much tax do you think they believe they'll spend on something that costs $100 before it is taxed?
There's a rather distinct advantage for Huckabee to use the inclusive rate, isn't there?
And rather than ask all of us to rely on the surely unbiased information at fairtax.org, allow me to provide some enlightenment from a different source:
Mother JonesSince the prebate would cover taxes for those who spend less than or equal to the poverty line, Huckabee and company argue that the fair tax is progressive.
But according to Department of Labor data for 2006, households at every income level spend more than the poverty line. For spending beyond the poverty line, that is, over the amount that prebates cover, regression kicks back in. The average American family that makes less than $70,000 a year spends more than it earns,, and a prebate wouldn't do much to make up the difference. Meanwhile, the average family that brings in more than $150,000 spends barely more than half of what it makes. Sure, the wealthy would pay more in total taxes because they're spending more money. But middle-class families that spend more than the poverty line and most, if not all, of their income would still get hit hardest. The fair tax is regressive for everyone but the destitute for whom the prebate would be enough.
The progressive/regressive issue isn't the only elaborate balancing act surrounding this policy proposal. Supporters insist that the fair tax is revenue neutral, meaning that under the fair tax the federal government would bring in exactly as much money as it does today. Skeptics argue that this is mathematically impossible. A 2005 President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform study concluded that it would take a 34 percent tax-exclusive rate, not the fair tax's 30 percent, to keep the fiscal status quo. Brookings Institution economist William Gale has pegged the magic number at 39.3 percent. And I haven't seen this raised anyplace, but I have to wonder about the ever increasing ease of purchasing foreign goods. Instead of tax shelters like we commonly have being limited to the rich, anyone with an internet connection could presumably order foreign goods on line to avoid paying any tax whatsoever. More from Mother Jones:It could rise even higher if consumers seeking to avoid the high sales tax develop a strong black market that sucks money out of federal coffers. Buying in Canada or Mexico would have the same effect.
Combating that black market and keeping tax payers honest in the collection of their prebates would likely require a tax-enforcement agency that would resemble the IRS. The hated taxman that Huckabee invokes would not be dead.
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| 6 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 15:23
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Here's a tax plan I find a little more interesting plan for eliminating the income tax for the vast majority of Americans, and it is a lot less loony than a sales tax.
a) Eliminate the income tax entirely for families earning up to $100,000, indexed for inflation.
b) Impose a flat rate tax on income above that level, at a rate of 20-25% (I lean strongly toward the upper end of the range).
c) Impose a VAT tax at a 10-14% rate.
d) Lower the corporate tax, aligning it closely to the new, lower income tax rates (while also forcing corporations to use the same accounting standards when they deal with the IRS and the SEC).
e) Mike would deal with the EITC's elimination by providing a refundable offset to the payroll tax. I think that my suggestions above could do roughly the same thing, or we could establish some compromise between what I want and what Mike wants.
I don't know if I could get completely behind it, but it would actually work, I think. Something I can't say for the fair tax.
Why is this discussion in this thread, btw?
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| 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 15:32
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because its an election point? *shrug*
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| 8 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 15:51
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The thing I would fear most once they got a national sales tax is that socialists [this means you, all you big government libs] would then turn around and reimpose income tax and then we'd be saddled with both.
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| 9 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 15:55
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*sigh* liberal, meaning a social conscience, doesnt mean the same thing as a socialist. Though in truth, WTF is wrong with giving a sh*t about your neighbor?
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| 10 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 16:14
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copy/paste from the 3rd link in post 5 above:
Here is the (to me) definitive answer to the question of whether under the FairTax people will receive their gross pay or their net pay.
Apparently, every single FairTax supporter here has been wrong and not a single FairTax supporter understands the tax; but since facts and logic seem to have no influence at all, you will all no doubt be glad that I am declaring that I will not be doing any more research nor posting long essays on the subject.
Your gross pay will be reduced to your net pay amount under the FairTax.
Here it is; believe whatever you wish:
As you may know, much of the FairTax concept came from the work of Dr. Dale Jorgenson, then chairman of the Harvard Economics Department, who is quoted extensively in the FairTax book.
Dr. Jorgenson was asked specifically about the question of whether or not peoples paychecks would be reduced from their gross pay amount to their net pay amount.
Dr. Jorgenson replied: A more reasonable interpretation of my 1996 testimony is that workers would keep that after-tax pay; producers' prices would fall, but retail prices would be increased by the national retail sales tax.
AFTER TAX PAY!
Asked to further clarify so that there could be no misinterpretation as to the specific question: when you say "workers would keep that after-tax pay" are you saying that if they are making $1000 a week now, and paying $200 payroll+income taxes now, that under the FairTax you were assuming that workers would get paid $800 and keep all of that? Or are you saying that you meant they would make $1000 under the FairTax?
Dr Jorgenson responded: I am saying that the worker would continue to receive the after-tax amount of $800.
So, the employer immediately pockets the payroll taxes being currently paid, and retail; prices climb. (Meaning, still more windfall profits and the expense of those who HAVE to spend their incomes to live.) No wonder Republicans like this idea. It slowly but surely, kills off the poor through starvation.
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| 11 | TacoJohn
ID: 590291817 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:15
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Does anyone think it would one of the greatest reforms ever if the government stopped taking taxes directly out of paychecks?
Every other organization in this country manages to collect revenue without pulling it straight from paychecks, yet the most powerful organization does it that way.
I think if people got their full paycheck and then sent a check off to the government each month there would be MUCH more participation in the political process and MUCH more accountability on spending.
I think enforcement would be expensive at first, but once people realized they still go to jail for not paying it wouldn't change things much. Plus even if it was really expensive I think it would be more than worth it.
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| 12 | Perm Dude
ID: 3615610 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:19
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It is a heck of a lot easier to have it done that way. Trust me: I'm self-employed, and coming up with large amounts of money to pay the taxman is very tough sometimes.
Most people lack the self-control to pay thousands of dollars at once for taxes.
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| 13 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:22
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I think we already have enough people not paying their taxes. If you counted on John Doe to send the money in himself, I dont see it happening. Hell, every day I see people who didnt send Visa their $20 anytime in the past 18 months. What makes you think for one second, those folks would send in their tax money every month?
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| 14 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:37
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TacoJohn
I think if more liberals realized the full extent of how badly they had been mugged, there would be a LOT more ex-liberals.
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| 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 3615610 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 21:40
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So you'd be OK with lump sum tax payments, B?
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| 16 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Wed, Feb 06, 2008, 22:26
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Trick question.
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| 17 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 00:04
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I think if more liberals realized the full extent of how badly they had been mugged, there would be a LOT more ex-liberals.
Yes but would the conservatives who voted for the multi trillion dollar war in Iraq finally realize how much they had been conned and how much it is costing them?
Only if they had to pay the Iraq money as yet a seperate and immediate tax. At the moment it's just being charged to your kids credit card. Make sure you thank your kids for paying for the war you supported by waiting to pay after your dead.
And you are smug about liberals and big government...what a joke.
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| 18 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 00:41
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And you are smug about liberals and big government...what a joke.
Of course it's a joke, but it isn't funny. Take for example a post I made the other day regarding Bush's proposed budget.
President Bush wants to hire nearly 1,100 new diplomats to address severe staffing shortages and put the State Department on track to meet an ambitious call to double its size over the next decade
Any protest from the anti-big government crowd? Any comments on how much it will cost to hire Blackwater or a similar "we can kill with impunity" type company to protect these diplomats? Anyone actually questioning if there are really severe shortages in the State Department?
Equal amounts of conservatives are being equally mugged.
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| 19 | TacoJohn
ID: 012873 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 04:30
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That's not even a partisan question. Whichever side of the fence you're on EVERYONE is going to get pissed when they write that check each month which is the point.
As far as people paying, go ahead and still have employers report it. If they don't pay you fine them, if they still don't pay you put them in jail. That should clear things up pretty quickly.
I honestly think we'd see a 50%+ reduction of spending in the next 10 years.
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| 20 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 09:37
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I honestly think we'd see a 50%+ reduction of spending in the next 10 years.
That's why it won't happen politicians on both sides of the aisle love to spend.
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| 21 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 10:48
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A reader email at Daily Dish today:In states where the black population is less than 5%, Obama has a record of 7 wins, 2 losses and 1 undecided (NM). In states where the black population is 20% or higher, he is undefeated at 4-0. However, in states that are between 5-20% black, his record is a fairly dismal 4-10 (with one of those victories being Illinois).
The theory here is that Obama does well where the black population is so low that identity politics isnt an issue. And, he does well where the black share of Democratic primary voters is so high that he needs few white voters to carry the day. He has the hardest time in states that are black enough to have some racialized politics, but without enough black voters to completely tip the scales.
This corresponds to the long held observation that black candidates in general do best in either fairly non-black environments or in heavy black environments but struggle with the in between, where white majority fears that they will be the tool of an aggrieved constituency. (Some, of course, have broken that mold like Doug Wilder, and Carol Mosely-Braun and Obama himself).
For Obamas upcoming contests, this bodes well for Maryland, D.C., Virginia, Nebraska and Vermont and maybe Rhode Island, but not so well for Ohio and Texas.
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| 22 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 10:57
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Captain Ed: The Challenge For McCain And Conservatives At CPAC Today John McCain meets some of his fiercest critics today at CPAC, with a 3 pm ET speech that will provide a critical moment for both the candidate and the activists. Most have focused on what McCain has to do to reach out to the conservatives, but fewer understand that the movement has a decision to make as well regarding its future and its relevance.
First, let's focus on McCain. The Senator will not win an election by suddenly gainsaying everything he has done over the past eight years since his last presidential campaign. He will have to focus on the future, including the future of the badly-needed immigration reform that everyone wants but no one can define to consensus. McCain will need to commit to nominating judges to the bench that will not legislate from there.
He has to end the false dichotomy of "patriotism, not profit" and the little war of words on Wall Street, a kind of populism that conservatives rightly reject. He will also need to recast his focus on global warming to acknowledge that the US cannot unilaterally handicap itself economically and allow more manufacturing to disappear overseas thanks to even more expensive domestic energy production.
If McCain can do all of that, he will have come more than halfway to meeting the conservatives. If the latter doesn't show up at that halfway point, though, they risk more than a lost election. They put their credibility at risk as a coalition partner for rational governance.
Despite the size of CPAC, the conservative wing of the Republican Party is one of several factions within a big tent. Within that movement exists sub-factions as well. In order to have influence over public policy, any movement has to align itself with other compatible factions to form a governing coalition. That means sharing decisions and sometimes subordinating some issues in order to hold the coalition together, including leadership decisions.
Responsible coalition members understand that dynamic. Factions that refuse to cooperate in a coalition wind up marginalized and pushing the coalition in the opposite direction. If McCain wins the nomination without conservatives, he will push towards the center in the general election. Win or lose, the conservatives will have no influence on public policy either way, and will not be trusted as coalition partners for a long, long time afterwards.
Everyone has a lot at stake today. Conservatives owe McCain a hearing today, and they owe it to themselves to carefully consider whether they want to be taken seriously in the future.
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| 23 | Perm Dude
ID: 413710 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 11:03
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TJ: The only way to attack spending is to attack spending, not revenue. As I've pointed out elsewhere, government simply borrows the money when it overspends its budget.
In fact, our huge deficits right now are as a result of the kind of thinking that you are advocating, simply "starving the beast" as though there is some kind of connection between revenues and spending. There isn't.
That disconnect, in fact, has allowed a (mostly) Republican Congress to blithely pork up virtually every bill it looks at.
If you have a problem with spending (as I do), then advocate that Congress re-institute the PAYGO rules which Republicans started to get rid of in 1999-2000 (through technical means and "emergency" spending bills) and then completely abandoning it.
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| 25 | PuNk42AE Donor
ID: 036635522 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 12:52
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But Huckabee is in it for the long haul...? Wonder if we'll hear he's pulling out soon too, or if he'll just keep being the underdog trying for votes?
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| 26 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 12:58
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If Romney were to direct his delegates to Huckabee, then there would still be the possibility of a race. But Huckabee hates Mormons, and Romney hates Huckabee for hating Mormons, so the likelihood of that scenario is nil.
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| 27 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 13:48
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If Romney were to direct his delegates to Huckabee, then there would still be the possibility of a race.
That's a non starter. It was obvious from his comments he dropped out because he realizes McCain has the nod and he didn't want to hurt the parties chances by prolonging the inevitable...so why would he give delegates to Huck?
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| 28 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 13:55
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so why would he give delegates to Huck?
He wouldn't. Punk queried about Huck staying in for the long haul. But if Huck actually had visions of winning the nomination, an alliance with Romney is the only possible scenario that allows for any possibility of success. But as I noted, that won't happen.
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| 29 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 13:57
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Shoot. I guessed wrong when including Mitt and not Huck in the top post.
Other than this one, I am having trouble finding a picture of a young Huckabee.

(He's 4 months old and looking to be adopted, if anyone's in NC and looking for a cat)
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| 30 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 14:00
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The question now is McCain's VP choice. Huckabee is a possibility, but he only has strong support from the religious right. Lots of mainstream conservatives feel the same way about Huck as they do about McCain - too liberal. Still, McCain may feel he needs Huck to shore up the South and the Bible Belt. I wouldn't be suprised to see Florida gov Charlie Crist get the nod.
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| 31 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 14:15
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McCain shouldn't have any problem with values voters. Its his questionable conservative bona-fides on taxes and immigration that have Republicans' heads exploding.
He should give Lou Dobbs a call. That ought to shut 'em up.
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| 32 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 18:15
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McCain is not reliablely pro-life so I don't expect he can satistfy social consrvatives. His camp is responsible for getting David Souter selcted who has been a disaster for conservatives, and he claims Alito was too conservative ao why would social conervatives like McCain again?
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| 33 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 18:25
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McCain is not reliablely pro-life
Not as long as he supports our bombing of Iraqi neighborhoods.
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| 34 | Building 7
ID: 48033121 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:09
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Maybe a lot of people like the idea of being in Iraq for 100 years. I don't know any, though.
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| 36 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:13
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I do so love how even lockstep similarities with Saint Ronald himself are not enough to assuage the anti-conservative bugaboo around McCain's neck.
Put aside the fact that McCain's amnesty plan is a Reagan retread. Now McCain must bear a cross for whatever role he played in Souter's appointment? But not Reagan, right? I'm sure I've been told that poor old gullible Gipper was simply tricked into nominating O'Connor and Kennedy.
Once you guys have selected someone for cannibalization, reality just doesn't matter any more, does it? Tell me, why was the hard right so comparitively easy on Bush, even in 2004 after they knew him?
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| 37 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:18
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I've been remiss. A picture to warm the cockles of all the Reaganites out there, hangin' the odd man out:
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| 38 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:19
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Once you guys have selected someone for cannibalization, reality just doesn't matter any more, does it?
That's "siggable" in any number of forums.
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| 39 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:20
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And the Biggest Loser in this campaign:

Okay, enough of that.
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| 40 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:24
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Cabalization, Maybe? Siggable?
I'm confused.
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| 41 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:26
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yep bili....siggable. lol The best sig copy I recall seeing on a forum supporting it, was/is on a bike forum;
"80% of all Harleys ever sold are still on the road........the other 20% got their owners back home."
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| 42 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:30
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No, I meant cannibalization, as in selected for cannibalism.
I had to google siggable. Means the phrase is worthy of making it your signature.
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| 43 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:36
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Gotcha. I was too busy playing with the Google Image search to read enough for context! ;)
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| 44 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:38
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Tell me, why was the hard right so comparitively easy on Bush, even in 2004 after they knew him? - MITH
Great great question to which I can only begin to answer.
* It's easy to lose track of what's being spent.
* It's easy to overlook the fact that one spending bill after another goes without a veto.
* It's easier to blame the congress which overspends than the president who fails to veto the bills.
* It's extremely hard to wrap your mind around the deviousness that is neoconservatism, and few here in this group [who have heard me explain it to them plain], to this day could even define what neoconservatism is.
BTW few conservatives understand or remember exactly why the Bush family pulled Hitler's bacon out of the fire and got him elected or would have pointed it out as often as I have.
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| 45 | Tree
ID: 4110717 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:45
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Once you guys have selected someone for cannibalization, reality just doesn't matter any more, does it?
funny you say that. i was just thinking about a previous thread where someone said something akin to "holy crap, they're eating their own..."
and sure enough, the Republicans are in such disarray, i'll be damned if that's what they're not doing.
what's crazy, is that IMHO, the GOP is in a great position now. With Romney bowing out, McCain is *the* guy, and he can concentrate on bashing his Democrat opponents.
instead, he'll be forced to defend himself to members of his own party.
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| 46 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 19:55
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instead, he'll be forced to defend himself to members of his own party. - Tree
Understandable prediction but it can't be done.
Now McCain is already making his bed and lighting candles for his left paramours and have left conservatives to swing in the wind between third parties, complete apathy, or the prospect of him rubbing a liberal supreme court in their noses, win or lose.
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| 47 | Perm Dude
ID: 413710 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 20:01
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Now McCain is already making his bed and lighting candles for his left paramours
He skipped the stimulus package vote and gave a pretty good speech at CPAC.
When pressed as to why McCain is not conservative, the response is "the Left likes him!!" which is no response at all.
I don't think "conservatives" even know what "conservative" means anymore.
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| 48 | Tree
ID: 4110717 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 20:35
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i think McCain isn't Conservative to the faux-Conservatives because he's not a religious nut. he could share every single belief and ideology of Ronald Reagan, but if he's not a religious zealot, he's not conservative enough.
This is what Bush and his cronies did to the Republican party - they made it the party of the holier-than-thou minority, and, most likely, made it completely irrelevant.
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| 49 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 20:42
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When pressed as to why McCain is not conservative, the response is "the Left likes him!!" which is no response at all.
Do you believe the left, overall today, is further to the left than the left of the Reagan Era?
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| 50 | Perm Dude
ID: 413710 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 21:14
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No. I think Clinton pushed the party to the center.
The question about McCain isn't about the Left at all, but about the Republican Party. Will John McCain or Clinton/Obama forward to goals of the GOP? I don't think anyone can, with a straight face, think a Clinton victory with a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress is a good thing for the GOP. At best it will show the GOP was a paper tiger about its signature issues of Iraq and taxes. At worst the party will fracture in a series of "purity" tests.
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| 51 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 22:22
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Do you believe the left, overall today, is further to the left than the left of the Reagan Era?
That's a good question. At first blush, I'd say that there is little difference between the left of today and the left of the Eighties. The left of the Eighties had toned down from the more radical seventies. Of course, I'm using my definition of the "left", today that is embodied in Dennis Kuncinch. There were some good progressives back then.
Your answer depends on your definition of the "left".
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| 52 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 22:31
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I've never said he wasn't conservative because the left likes him.
I've said he's not conervative because:
* He's pro-illegal immigration no matter what he says during the election period.
* He's anti-free speech
* He votes against tax cuts
* His chief of staff is the guy who vouched for Souter and McCain disses SCOTUS nominees who actually are conservative
* He is not reliably pro-life
I'll go on if that isn't enuff.
Where do you, PD, get off saying the response is "the Left likes him! when you have heard nothing like that from any conservative here?
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| 53 | Perm Dude
ID: 413710 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 00:19
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You mean your #46 is all about the GOP? Yeah, right.
I'm not about to defend McCain, but you should at least read his stated reasons for opposing some of the tax cuts, Baldwin. Essentially, tax cuts unaccompanied by spending cuts (or, in the case of the bills in question, tax cuts accompanied by huge spending increases) is hardly being conservative.
I have no idea what you mean by "reliably pro life." Frankly, is sounds like the kind of record parsing which allows one to say virtually anything about anyone. McCain not only has a solid record of voting pro-life since he was elected, he adopted a baby from Mother Teresa's orphanage in 1993. Is there a better way to demonstrate that one is pro-life than to go to such lengths?
As for SCOTUS, it is almost a joke how justices seem to change when they get on the bench. As I recall, Souter was pushed by Rudman and Sununu, and passed with 90 votes. Surely you aren't taking the other Republicans who voted for him to task for not being "conservative?"
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| 54 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 01:14
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* There are no exceptable reasons for voting against a tax cut EVER.
* AC points out that at least when Romney flipflops on the abortion he stayed flipped, unlike McCain.
* I believe it was Rudman on whom Republicans were relying to vet Souter and that same judgement is now chief of staff afaik for McCain.
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| 55 | CanadianHack
ID: 31645103 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 03:22
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* There are no exceptable reasons for voting against a tax cut EVER.
Does this mean that in Baldwin's world, if a bill came along to cut taxes by 100%, voting against it would be wrong?
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| 56 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 04:34
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* There are no exceptable reasons for voting against a tax cut EVER.
You must really love your children Baldwin.
You support a war that costs trillions, but rather then having the guts to pay for it you enjoy the high life, cut taxes and let your kids and their children worry about how to pay for it.
That my friend is morally reprehensible.
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| 57 | walk
ID: 141365 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 06:27
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I mean, don't taxes help pay for stuff? And if we don't pay for stuff, don't we just accumulate debt that eventually, like a credit card, has to be paid off? So, we've essentially charged a couple of wars. And Bush looks good to his base cos he cut taxes, but we have this huge debt that eventually has to be paid off. So, somewhere down the line someone has to raise taxes to pay off the debt, no? If not, what are the alternatives? (not rhetorical). If there are no alternatives, then why is it the Dems who essentially have to be the bad guys to ask the taxpayers to pay off Bush's maxed out credit card? That seems irresponsible. I assume some republcans would have an answer as to how we will pay for the wars without having to raise taxes, so I am open to hearing it. Thx.
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| 58 | Tree
ID: 4512985 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 06:39
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this is usually the part where Baldwin gets lost for a few days playing some video game, or getting buried in something work-related.
seriously? one should never vote against a tax cut, no matter what the reasons or situations regarding the tax cut?
how do we pay for things? how do we pay for wars we wage? how do we pay for increased security for the people of this country? how do we pay for infrastructure, like bridges and tunnels?
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| 59 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 07:26
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Baldwin displays the difference between a fiscal conservative and someone who is simply anti-tax.
The fiscal conservative knows that it's necessary to pay for your expenditures and that the short-term illusion of growth doesn't look very fiscally responsible when the big recession hits.
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| 60 | Perm Dude
ID: 3212788 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 09:29
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Used to be that "conservative" meant fiscally responsible. Looks like the definition has slipped a bit.
Sometimes there are good reasons to vote against a tax cut. Even good conservative reasons.
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| 61 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 10:21
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To my minds eye, the attitude of "never a good reason to vote against a tax cut", is precisely the problem I have with todays republicans. It seems to be ALL about...me, me, me. Cut MY taxes, increase MY services, secure ME from threat, leave MY money alone....
It's almost like they expect to be coddled, but not held accountable, yet accountability is one of the mantras they have crowed for years. Right up until it's time for THEM to be held accountable.
I see/read/hear about Republicans whining over how much domestic spending a Dem would execute while in the WH. Where's all that same whining re the spending by this admin in Iraq? Given the choice of spending money we dont have, overseas or here. I'll pick here TYVM. I would PREFER however, that we NOT spend money we dont have.
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| 62 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 10:23
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Sometimes there are good reasons to vote against a tax cut. Even good conservative reasons
Sometimes there are good reasons to vote against entitlement programs, something that a Hillary/Obama White House coupled with a Dem controlled Congress will need to endorse, even if votes are at stake.
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| 63 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 10:26
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True enough PV.
I partially blame Limbaughs book of several years ago, for turning the word "compromise" into a "bad thing" in American politics. It is I think, the very essence of a Democracy/Republic. Yet in our political arena today, those who would compromise, are seen as "flip-floppers" and/or "weak". The voters, seem largely unable to grasp the concept that not EVERY decision needs be precisely what THEY want.
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| 64 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 11:51
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Good points on the "me"(an-ness) of republicans sarge and the way compromise is now perceived in our very divisive poli landscape. It sucks.
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| 65 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 14:40
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Sarge
Your mind's eye is defective. When did you EVER here a conservative utter the phrase "increase MY services"?
Don't offer me any 'help' and get yer **** hand out of my pocket. As liberals and neocons try and give everyone amnesia regarding Reagan just remember my favorite line of his, "The ten most terrifying words in the English language are, 'Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" July 28, 1988
Walk
Any tax cut you will ever see in the real world will pay for itself and then some, actually increasing tax revenues thru increased prosperity and increased profit that can be taxed. Every tax is a deathblow to the goose laying all the golden eggs.
Re: compromise
Great in the abstract but some things do not lend themselves to compromise. You can't half abort a baby and creeping socialism is still socialism.
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| 66 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 14:49
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wasnt it you boldy, complaining about your sons decreased drywall business? So you DO want increased INS activity. Right? You DO want, increased LEO services. Yes? (It ios conservatives who claim to be the ones "hard on crime", correct?) That of ocurse means, you want more prisons, bigger military for National Security.....or am I thinking you want all those things, with fewer people/material to provide them?
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| 67 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 14:51
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Should have finished reeading your post before I responded.
Great in the abstract but some things do not lend themselves to compromise. You can't half abort a baby and creeping socialism is still socialism.
True I guess, but then...
Great in the abstract but some things do not lend themselves to compromise. You can't half abort a baby and creeping Republicans are still creeps.
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| 68 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 14:54
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Boldwin, thanks for the rationale. So, if that's the case, should not the tax cuts that Bush implemented a while have resulted in greater prosperity for all classes, not just the wealthy? And, at what point will the tax cuts start reducing our national debt and budget deficit? Maybe it takes years and years, I don't really know how it works, but it seems like we are about to slip into a recession (some say it's already here), so things are seemingly getting worse.
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| 69 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:02
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Time Mag's polling shows McCain vs. Hillary tied and Obama beating McCain. Independent voting patterns are the key difference. Hillary baby, just not liked enough.
Time Mag McCain, Obama, Clinton Poll
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| 70 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:20
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Overspending also kills the goose, sadly.
You know how Castro [and too many liberals] keeps portraying his country as a success despite the lack of any actual success?
Welcome to the future North American union, socialist, promising the moon and delivering less than nothing.
Having both mainstream socialist/globalist political parties will lead there, to be later replaced with a global dictatorship as regional unions are undemocratically glued together into one union.
Happily I know God's Kingdom crushes that monstrosity shortly thereafter but you probably won't have that hope to get you by.
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| 71 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:24
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I see, so the tax cuts could have theoretically worked to cut the deficit and debt had we not overspent (war on Iraq). I wish we could have seen that theory in practice (i.e. I wish we would not have gone to war and see if the tax cuts would have sustained our eco growth).
Regarding the rest of your prescient post. We are sorta moving towards a global eco, and there could be more "mergers," but I dunno about the god crushing part. Is that the rapture?
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| 72 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:28
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Post 70 is such a waste of time and space, Bald-one. I see that your anxiety increases as Election time draws near and since you are a non-voter, I can imagine why. Everyone is focusing on real issues and policies, you are left to worry about what everyone else decides and on some apocalypse that never seems to arrive.
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| 73 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:29
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On the contrary SZ...Nov 2004 was pretty damn close to the apocolypse.
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| 74 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:32
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War spending has nothing to do with budget deficits, Walk. That money (every time we vote to send another $87 billion off to Iraq) isn't even included in the budget.
For an example of a fiscal conservative who knows when to increase taxes, when to decrease taxes and has shown he knows the value of cutting spending, look at Michael Bloomberg.
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| 75 | walk Dude
ID: 32928238 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 15:59
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Thanks MITH. Our Mike. He is good.
So, if the war spending is not in the budget, and now I recall that's correct, Bush just asks for these extensions, he never budgeted for the war (that's not cool)...how can our gov't make any budgetary plans or decisions if it does not factor in all of what we actually spend? Seems crazy way to do accounting.
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| 76 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 16:44
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Baldwin When did you EVER here a conservative utter the phrase "increase MY services"?
UMMM Duh Go fight a multi trillion dollar war to protect me....that's not a "service"?
Oh and by the way I am not going to accept the responsibility and actually pay for it now...wait till I am dead and have my grand kids do it for me.
Sheez this is logic 101, keep throwing me soft balls Baldwin.
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| 77 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 20:55
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Protection from being murdered by threats foreign or domestic is one of the few legitimate functions of government.
If you see that as some unwarranted luxury conservatives are asking for...
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| 78 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 21:03
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Walk
No that is not 'the rapture' [which is a scripture evangelicals misunderstand btw].
The crushing of which I speak is the vision in Daniel 2:44 where the 'stone uncut by human hands' crushes the statue representing human/satanic government and then that stone becomes an earthwide everlasting kingdom of God.
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| 79 | walk
ID: 141365 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 21:30
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Okay, thanks for explaining...
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| 80 | Tree
ID: 30114819 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 22:29
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Protection from being murdered by threats foreign or domestic is one of the few legitimate functions of government.
which brings us right back to the point that Saddam Hussein was never a threat to murder you, me, Nerve, anyone else who posts on this board, or, for that matter, lives in the United States.
If you see that as some unwarranted luxury conservatives are asking for...
there is no question that the war in Iraq was, and is, an unwarranted luxury conservatives asked for.
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| 81 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:32
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National security will sure be an adventure under president Obama and people with the 'wisdom' of Tree. Someone prove to me Obama's second father wasn't the radical moslem I have heard he was. Please.
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| 82 | Tree
ID: 30114819 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:43
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National security will sure be an adventure under president Obama and people with the 'wisdom' of Tree.
oh look, another insult from the high-and-mighty religious fraud Baldwin.
i've honestly never known anyone more hypocritical and full of crap than you. and more ignorant.
National Security has been an adventure under President Bush. and a disaster to everything America stands for.
but he, he pretends to be religious too, so you've got stuff in common with him.
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| 83 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:45
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If anyone mistakes you for a fair judge of character or religion they deserve their misperceptions.
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| 84 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:46
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...
Just so I've got this straight...
You believe an Obama presicency compromises our national security because Debbis Schlussel wants you to think his father was a radical muslim?
...
Curious, do you envision his father's people committing acts of espionage and sabatoge from inside the White House or are you more concerned that Obama will complacently allow acts of terrorism inside the US under the threat that we submit sharia law?
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| 85 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:52
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He's probably planning to go full-out whabbi-militant the day he swears in.
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| 86 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:53
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Yeah he's gonna bring change all right.
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| 87 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:58
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You tell me exactly what he plans on doing, MITH.
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| 88 | Tree
ID: 30114819 Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:59
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If anyone mistakes you for a fair judge of character or religion they deserve their misperceptions.
a much fairer judge than you. i make my own decisions, i don't follow what some personality on TV tells me.
and i'm no judge of religion, but i sure can tell a hypocrite when i see one. so preach on brother baldwin, preach on that message of hatred and smugness from your little bunker of paranoia.
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| 89 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 00:00
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The United States under Emir Saddam Hussein Obama
Rape squads will be dispatched in every city to enforce burkah laws within 72 hours.
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| 90 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 00:01
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I mean besides let al qeada run around unimpeded for 8 yrs. The far left and he have made that plan unequivically clear.
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| 91 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 00:08
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The far left and he have made that plan unequivically clear.
Are those the same folks that have been screaming at the right for 5+ years to drop the goose chase in Iraq and restart the chase for th epeople that attacked us? Or is that nearer left then you meant? Which is Obama?
Oh, right, he's the one who (based on wild and blatently unfounded rumors about his father) is quite possibly sympathetic enough to al Qaeda that he might turn a blind eye to them.
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| 92 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 00:12
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Someone prove to me Obama's second father wasn't the radical moslem I have heard he was. Please.
If I search this forum for the term, "prove a negative", what percentage of the results would be defensive posts from you declaring it cannot be done? I'd bet a rather disproportionate percentage.
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| 93 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 00:23
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Obama spent most of his childhood in Hawaii. Our main concern is that he is going to force poi on the palates of unsuspecting Americans.
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| 94 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 00:56
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You guys couldn't muster an iota of graceful winning if your lives depended on it, could you?
I'm assuming an Obama presidency since all McCains passionate supporters are gonna vote Obama anyway...
So really, go directly past the victory dance and just tell me anything concrete that Obama has planned. I'm genuinely curious.
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| 95 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 02:24
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Protection from being murdered by threats foreign or domestic is one of the few legitimate functions of government.
If you see that as some unwarranted luxury conservatives are asking for...
Who said luxury?
you asked "When did you EVER here a conservative utter the phrase "increase MY services".
Protection from being murdered by threats foreign or domestic is one of the few legitimate functions of government is still a service provided by the government legitimate or not.
Obviously in the case of the invasion of Iraq it's more then debatable.
In any case you continue to dodge the most important issue. You keep calling Dem's big spenders but the Republican's passed the biggest budgets in our countries history Baldwin.
You my friend are satisfied handing the bill to your children and grand children.
So if this is a legitimate function of government, (and obviously a majority of American's now disagree the invasion of Iraq was a wise adventure) why won't you accept responsibility and pay for the cost of the war?
Every other generation did pony up in time of war, but the current adult generation, specifically the Republicans through their fiscal policies (Raise spending and lower taxes), is passing the burden on to their children and grand children.
Thanks Dad.
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| 96 | Perm Dude
ID: 3212788 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 02:27
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Yeah, the whole "tax cuts for the wealthy while calling for war on our enemies" was among the most cynical, of many cynical, acts of this Administration.
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| 97 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 02:45
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Let me respond for Baldwin:
The Republicans aren't conservatives, they're neocons, and anyway he didn't vote for them. He didn't vote at all! (makes it easier to bitch about EVERYTHING!)
But the liberals are going to be much worse! Spending money on healthcare and education, and actually taxing people to pay for it. The horror.
Or something like that.
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| 98 | Tree
ID: 3711997 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 08:34
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You guys couldn't muster an iota of graceful winning if your lives depended on it, could you?
Because GW Bush, the leader of your grand old party, was graceful in winning? after getting less popular vote than the runner-up in 2000, and after barely getting the majority in 2004, Bush ran roughshod with his bogus "political capital" claims, as if the people of this country overwhemingly made him their leader.
he shat on the Constitution, he shat on 225 of history, and he shat on the nations that we have called friends.
I'm assuming an Obama presidency since all McCains passionate supporters are gonna vote Obama anyway...
sounds to me like that is your grand old party's problem, isn't it? i mean, if the Republicans are so gosh-durned stupid that they can't even back the guy they selected, and are willing to hand the presidency, senate, and house to their rivals, they you can't really blame the democrats for that - well, unless you're going to accept that the dems have a heck of a lot more good ideas than the republicans.
i mean, they must, right? if republicans are voting for a democrat, they must see something wrong in their own party and right in the other...
So really, go directly past the victory dance and just tell me anything concrete that Obama has planned. I'm genuinely curious.
after being fellated by the hostile takeover of your party by psuedo-conservatives for the last decade or so, you're really going to struggle for the next couple dozen or so, aren't you?
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| 99 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 08:37
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Bili
Paying teachers more for doing less, year long waits to cure six-month terminal illnesses, equal distribution of poverty...anything more specific?
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| 100 | Perm Dude
ID: 3514797 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 09:26
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Long waits? How? Even in a "worst case" scenerio (that is, under a health plan Obama is not, in fact, proposing) such illnesses are not subject to delays.
I don't think you have read crap about what Obama is proposing on anything. You are content, in your ignorance, to take potshots knowing that you are hitting general, "liberal" targets. Which is your only plan.
Please, for the sake of all of us, shut up about your objections to any proposals until you actually read them. No, not third or fourth hand through political opinion columns. Actually read them. Or at least the one you already are certain you don't like.
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| 101 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 09:42
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if republicans are voting for a democrat, they must see something wrong in their own party and right in the other - Tree
You are dumb as a brick as always. Really found a home hanging around heavyweight wrestling I am sure.
McCain made so many phony insincere conservative sounding position statements just to get the nomination that he even showed up as my favorite in that quiz that was posted. Nevertheless when he shows his true colors he won't please anyone but Dems already planning on being Obama voters."If [Independents and Democrats] all turn out for us, then I think that's a signal that we can do well in the general election" - McCain
"Independents power McCain to come-from-behind win" - Chicago Suntimes The only people voting for him are confused people who mistake his exagerated and deceptive posturing as genuine conservatism and dems hoping he destroys the Rep party.
In seemingly unrelated news I came across a finding that 3/4 of Britons think Winston Churchill was a fictional character. With such rampant stupidity a part of the human scene it is no wonder McCain can fool some of the people some of the time.
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| 102 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 09:42
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shut up about your objections to any proposals until you actually read them - PD
Actually post them.
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| 103 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 09:51
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obama's website
there ya go...
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| 104 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 09:56
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Ridiculous, "prove to me Obama's father was not a radical muslim" (sic). Please. Nice bigotry. I guess if someone on TV, or maybe someone stumping for our President, says that McCain's adopted kids were illegit, then you'd believe that, too. Oh, wait a minute...
Bush Campaign Against McCain in 2000
Gotta love that high-minded, republican campaigning based on integrity and truth.
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| 105 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 09:58
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Anecdotally, I have a friend who grew up with Obama in Hawaii. They went to elementary school together. Maybe even beyond. Hi how ya doin' level acquaintances. In the original spirit of these boards, it seemed that his primary religion was...hoops! Guy played basketball mucho, and apparently still does.
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| 106 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 10:17
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Talk radio Republicans are becoming a political embarrassment in this country. They hate McCain and Hillary, and resort to flat out lies and innuendo with Obama. Everything that happens in this country is the media's fault, even though talk radio Republicans are part of the media.
Someone prove to me Obama's second father wasn't the radical moslem I have heard he was. Please.
Where did you hear that? How many radical Moslems work for Shell Oil, as Obama's step-father(I'm assuming that's what you mean by second father) did while living in Indonesia?
How many radical Moslems send their step-children to Catholic school?
How many radical Moslems allow their wives to wear western clothing, instead of burkas and head scarves? Got any pictures of Obama's mother wearing such clothing?
So, where's the proof that Obama's step-father was a radical Moslem? Of course you don't need any, the goal is to plant a seed and have the populace subconsciously relate Obama to the current hysteria regarding Islamic terrorism, and extrapolate that hysteria into an Obama/9-11 connection.
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| 107 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 10:17
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I like the way it was put on Maher last night, which is what is more important, choosing a leader who is good for the country or good for the party? What is more patriotic? How do ultra conservatives rationalize their intended (likely bluff) decision to vote for Hillary over McCain cos he is not conservative enough when he gets an 82 rating and she a 5 on the whatever conservative scoring system? Would a conservative rather have a somewhat conservative leader or a not at all conservative leader? Isn't McCain mostly conservative in his views? Isn't even saying one would vote for Hillary being even more disloyal to the party?
How does one accept the views of some conservative columnists like Coulter who says that Giuliani was "enthusiastically supports torturing terrorists" while McCain "is hysterial in opposition to dripping water down the noses of terrorists." (to which she got big applause...), insulting comparisons of McCain to Hitler and Clinton to Stalin. How is that patriotic to our country's needs and elevating the political discourse?
Coulter's Views of McCain
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| 108 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 10:21
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How is that patriotic to our country's needs and elevating the political discourse?
Obviously, it is/does neither. What it is/does, is to further ones personal political agenda, truth be damned. Remember the Swifties?
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| 109 | Perm Dude
ID: 3514797 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 11:05
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What a lazy git you are Baldwin. Intellectually as well.
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| 110 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 11:07
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He wasn't always. I recall we used to get some level-headed, thoughtful discourse out of him before he became bold.
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| 111 | Tree
ID: 41126911 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 12:45
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You are dumb as a brick as always. Really found a home hanging around heavyweight wrestling I am sure.
again, Baldwin, you can't make a post toward me without insulting me. it's the true measure of you as a man, and a human being, and well, it's a pretty short measuring stick you'll need.
then again, why wouldn't you stereotype. you're not intelligent enough, or open-minded enough, to do anything other than that. i would put you and your pathetic, weak, small-minded, talk-radio quoting ass against a number of pro wrestlers in a debate, and you'd walk away with your tail between your legs.
Bryan Danielson is one of the most intelligent guys i've met, and he would run circles around you. Necro Butcher would embarrass you, because he would school you so convincingly that your head would be spinning because you just lost a debate to a guy who looks like Charles Manson on a BAD day.
and JBL (John Layfield, you've probably heard of him since he's on Fox New Channel nearly every week, and is a respected financial analysyt), would probably just debate you because you're an ass, and after he explained the simple points of economics and finance to you, he'd probably finish up by punching you in the mush because you're such an annoying twit.
The only people voting for him are confused people who mistake his exagerated and deceptive posturing as genuine conservatism and dems hoping he destroys the Rep party.
since he's got the Republican nomination essentially sewn up, and most of the people who helped him get that nomination are Republican, that oughta validate what i said earlier about the stupidity of the party.
and trust me - the Republicans have destroyed their own party. they don't need ANY help from the dems.
and personally speaking - despite the fact i've never liked you much, you, at one point, didn't attempt to contribute here in a rational, non-condescending, and somewhat intelligent way.
watching what you've become over the past couple years is pretty sad actually, like watching someone descend into madness.
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| 112 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 12:45
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I have less time for this now. That is all it is.
I also really don't think any Obama supporter knows a single concrete plan and I suspect Obama hasn't even published any. Is it really so much to ask?
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| 113 | Tree
ID: 41126911 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 13:03
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I have less time for this now. That is all it is.
that's a good reason for ignorance, lies, bigotry, and hate-mongering?
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| 114 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 14:58
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Well, just cos you have less time for this now, does not make the second sentence in #112 true. Sarge posted to Obama's site, which I have linked to previously, which includes a 64-page document detailing his strategy.
Here's an Obama supporter who seems to know a bit more than you would suspect:
The Case for Obama
You probably don't have enough time to watch the entire 5 minute video, and that's fair, but your lack of time and subsequent awareness or knowledge gives you no credibility when making broad and inaccurate generalizations about Obama an his supporters.
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| 116 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:29
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Just got back from my Caucus. Wow. an incredible turnout. I would guess over 1000 for the district. 80-20 Obama-Clinton in my precinct. Nobody was even willing to speak for Clinton, with a dozen people wanting to lobby for Barack. And a few vocal supporters of Kucinich too!
Just an incredible amount of energy.
I live in a blue-collar suburb north of Seattle, which I had assumed was moderate to conservative. I was wrong. So many retired neighbors and ex-military at the Dem Caucus that I'd assumed were conservatives.
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| 117 | walk
ID: 1715098 Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 17:59
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Hey bili, can you walk us through a bit of just what happens in caucus...? I have never seen one nor really know what it looks like in the moment. thanks.
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| 118 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 00:26
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No one is willing to post a single concrete plan Obama has. Still. He's your guy, they're your positions. What is it to be?
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| 119 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 00:41
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From Obama's position papers:Create Secure Borders
Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry. So if the man is speaking english I can expect a fence? Then why don't I?
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| 120 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 01:46
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He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.
I read that as "no fence", perhaps even "absolutely no fence".
More Border Patrol officers, more watch powers or something, more Ipods, a few other bells and whistles for the F'ing morons who think our border with Mexico is a bigger issue than the F'ING WAR!
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| 121 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 06:13
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Baldwin
There was a link above to his website. If you scroll to the bottom of the front page there is a tab marked issues.
If you click on the tab you are offered a "position paper" download called "Blueprint for Change".
I downloaded it. 60 PDF pages detailing his stand in detail on a large number of issues. I haven't had the time to read through it yet but he covers among other things Ethics, Economy, Seniors, Education, Energy, Health Care, Immigration Foreign Policy, Veterans etc.
It's a bit lengthy and detailed to post here, but if you really are interested, I mean you keep asking, well there you go.
I'm sure there will be plenty in it to criticize so why not have a look and report back.
It took me about 60 seconds to find and to download it. (But I'm pretty good finding my way around the internets.)
Here's the direct link to the report
Don't interpret this as an endorsement of Obama, you just seemed like you need a little help and you seem so interested I thought I would lend a hand.
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| 122 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 10:06
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i found this to be an interesting article , and sort of a reflection on how much excitement and buzz this election campaign has.
granted, it's about children and their growing interest in politics, but i think it trends up to adults as well.
it comes on the heels of a conversation i had with a friend of mine on Friday - who, by her own, admission, is not terribly interested in politics, but has been caught up in everything going on and says that this has been the most exciting political season she can remember since becoming voting age more than 15 years ago.
what's especially interesting about her is that her sister is VERY active in politics. she was part of John Ashcroft's press team, she was Laura's Bush's press secretary (yes, THAT Laura Bush) for several years until fairly recently, and now she's working with one of the Bush daughters on some book the daughter is writing/has written. (incidently, the same woman was also American Idol winner Taylor Hicks' 9th grade English teacher...lol)
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| 123 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 10:32
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Obama romps--some of the wins weren't even close.
The primary calendar is looking very good for Obama right now.
Who knows--some people might actually start looking up Obama's publically-available positions...
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| 124 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 11:03
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Nerve
I had already skimmed thru the tabs at Obama's site. I am not sure if the PDF is more detailed than all the information under each tab. Really not in love with clogging my comuputer with 60 page downloads as I read a ton of stuff every day.
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| 125 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 11:06
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Really not in love with clogging my comuputer with 60 page downloads as I read a ton of stuff every day.
oy. you're telling people you want/need more info, you get linked to it, and then don't want to delve into it???
that strikes me as totally against the Baldwin of old. you would rather be spoon fed your information from other sources, instead of the direct source itself?
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| 126 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 11:09
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I read that as "no fence", perhaps even "absolutely no fence". - SZ
There exactly right there is the genius of Obama. He has a gift of saying things in such a way that everyone can imagine their position is being given a fair shake when in fact he intends to screw half of them over bigtime.
While Bill Clinton was an exceptionally gifted liar Obama takes finess to a new level. He gets you to lie to yourself.
Prolly a landslide victory in the making. The sheep are not equiped to cope with that.
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| 127 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 11:11
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Looking more likely that the traditional "swing states" of Ohio & Pennsylvania (!) will be a key to the Dem race. We in PA don't vote until April 4th, but this looks like a pretty good race.
Clinton has polling leads in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Texas, but I see that the Cleveland Plain Dealer just endorsed Obama. I haven't seen any polling for Ohio since early December (when Clinton was kicking butt there), and there's no reason to think she doesn't still have a lead. But Obama is taking Bill Clinton's playbook of winning the states he can, while remaining competitive in the states he can't.
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| 128 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 12:35
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i really can't imagine anyone reading "Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry" as "we we build a fence," unless the person wants to twist it in that way.
seems to me that it's saying nothing other than supporting more man power, more equipment for that increased man power, and improved technology for that increase in equipment and man power.
he also makes the distinction of "ports of entry", which in no way, shape, or form, limits it to Mexico, which is what those who read it as "mexico only" (such as Baldwin) are apparently seeing.
Ports of entry, in plain language, includes ALL of our borders, including the one to the north, as well as docks, ports, piers, and anything else bordering a body of water where someone could gain entry into the United States.
i mean, there's nothing opaque about that, unless that's what you want to see. it's completely transparent.
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| 130 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 18:01
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"Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border - Tree
Right right, when he says infrastructure on the border he prolly means building BRIDGES on the border to facilitate illegal immigration.
Not fences on the border. Who would think fences were a logical border infratructure when you can build tunnels and bridges and illegals welcome signs and hydrations stations and sanctuary churches? What was I thinking?
Wait, that doesn't PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY OF THE BORDERS like Obama promised! What was Tree thinking?
Well it actually would preserve the integrity of our borders if you think expanding their current porous nature qualifies as a 'state of integrity' that needs preservation.
That Obama takes slick to a whole 'nuther level.
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| 132 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 18:29
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And seeing as how they've made stopping illegals a punishable offense, [google Ramos and Compean] a few more booths and fax machines on the border doesn't qualify as preserving the integrity of the border.
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| 133 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 18:45
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Building a wall won't either. All it will do is jack up the price for coyotes, and expand slavery in the US, as the immigrants are forced into indentured servitude for years to pay off transport.
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| 134 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 18:59
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Any excuse not to have a border. Amazing.
H.G.Well's eloi arrived early.
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| 135 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:08
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We've had a border for centuries without a fence. It doesn't mean we don't have a border anymore. And the lack of support for a fence doesn't mean Obama is against a border.
You really need to stop reading the fake news to make those important distictions in the real world.
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| 136 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:14
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they've made stopping illegals a punishable offense, [google Ramos and Compean]
Talk about spin. This has been covered in depth. Ramos and Campean were not tried for stopping illegals. Thousands of illegals are stopped and turned back every day. Those agents didn't feel the need to shoot the suspect in the butt and lie about it, which is a punishable offense.
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| 138 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:37
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He was shot in the groin.
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| 139 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:39
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The bottom line in Ramos/Campean was if the punishment fit the crime.
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| 140 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:39
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So unless you believe he was smuggling a van-load of MJ from the USA into Mexico and that he wears his groin on the back of his body, you'd better get yer facts straight.
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| 141 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:40
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Right right, when he says infrastructure on the border he prolly means building BRIDGES on the border to facilitate illegal immigration.
no, as i stated, but you apparently missed, he means equipment. be that more vehicles, more protection, better offices and such, that's what i means.
i don't think anyone in their wildest imagination - save for you - believes he wants to build a fence, wall, or laser grid to keep immigrants out.
[google Ramos and Compean]
you mean the two guys who fired 15 bullets at an unarmed man who was running away from them? and then attempted to cover up the whole incident by not reporting it and hiding shell casings?
we've had this discussion before, and it's a nice little red herring argument, but the fact remains that Ramos and Compean's case have NOTHING to do with illegal immigration, and they sure as hell weren't stopping illegals when they shot a man WHO WAS RUNNING BACK INTO MEXICO.
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| 142 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 19:44
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Now Tree I can believe might be honestly confused about groins.
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| 143 | Tree
ID: 50137108 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 20:29
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hey, look, another insult from Baldwin. that's shocking.
and trust me, i am way less confused about that part of the human body than you are.
but by all means, resort to insults. it's what you do when you don't have a leg to stand on when you try and pass your fallacies off as the truth.
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| 144 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611 Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 21:14
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Look, you can actually see Hillary reading the writing on the wall. Her campaign manager either quits or was fired, her staff has forsworn their salaries... all signs of impending doom. She's out of money and will be spending millions of her own. Guess we can all expect another book deal.
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| 145 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 00:45
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Baldy again I have to ask...why is it the Republicans had both houses and the White House for 6 years and did nothing about immigration, nothing. No wall, no new innitiatives.
They didn't start to even bring the issue up until the 2004 elections, during the campaign, even though they had been in power and done nothing.
Also you mock the Dems as big spenders when the Repubs in full power ran up the biggest budgets and deficits in our countries history.
Why then do you get off blaming the Dems for things the Republicans didn't do when they have full power.
This is beyond funny Baldwin, looks like you are the slick liar not Obama.
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| 146 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 16:52
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Nerve
As you are well aware, the power elite writing the checks funding the campaigns and buying the candidates and deciding who gets 'annointed', have interests running in different directions than the voters.
The Reagan revolution and the contract with America was broken and sold out long before anyone realized it. The Republicans in office were talking and voting in different directions.
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| 147 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 16:57
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That said there is no question which side is always proposing bigger goverment, accusing the other side of being heartless and stingy, etc.
Even tho 'compasionate conservatism' is just code for socialist in republican clothing, Bush still isn't proposing as big an increase in socialism as Dems are willing to go for.
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| 148 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 17:03
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That's a really big strawman, Baldwin. With nothing to back it up except your own bias.
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| 149 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 22:57
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Sure PD. I really wonder if you aren't so blinded by wishful thinking that you actually believe that back when the Republican run congress was threatening to shut down the government over the budget impass, that they were the ones trying to raise the spending.
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| 150 | Perm Dude
ID: 3711109 Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 23:05
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Still fighting the 90s wars rather than face today's? Already you are an old man, happy to talk about the battles of your youth while content to shut your mind to a world gone past you.
Really--your argument, in the end, is "Democrats would do much worse!!" when faced with the reality of helping to elect (and continuing to support) Republicans who have already surpased the very worst of what you claim Democrats would have done.
Well, you're done. Without relevance, I might add. Good luck to you.
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| 151 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 04:36
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When do Dems ever ask for less spending than Republicans, even bad Republicans, even country club republicans, even neocons? When?
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| 152 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 04:40
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The Republican party certainly is irrelevent until they return to conservative principles. When faced with the choice of big spending Dems or big spending Dems lite, they will prolly pick real Dems.
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| 153 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 07:48
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When do Dems ever ask for less spending than Republicans
Here
Congress amended the law in 1989 to allow for automatic cost of living increases every year unless there is a specific vote to cancel it. This marks the sixth straight year that Rep. Jim Matheson (D-Utah) was defeated in his attempt to seek a separate up-or-down vote on the pay hike, which is an obscure part of the annual appropriations bill for the Departments of Transportation/Treasury/HUD/Judiciary/District of Columbia. Last year, Rep. Matheson introduced a bipartisan bill (H.R. 4494) that would eliminate the automatic pay increase.
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| 155 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:25
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Serious flaws in Brooks' logic. He is assuming that this "peace" we see in Iraq right now was caused by the "surge" and that it is here to stay. Both are wrong.
I believe it was Pancho who mentioned in another thread that Al-Sadr had announced a cease-fire that I think ends soon. If all hell breaks loose again, everyone, including all of these non-partisan military officials will once again say, "it's time to go."
There has been no real improvement in the effectiveness of the Iraqi national government to govern since the hostilities have lessened. Why should we think that anything would improve if given more time?
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| 156 | Building 7
ID: 471052128 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 17:36
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With Texas in play, I hope some of the candidates come to my town. I can ask them some questions about 9-11. I'll be the one saying "Don't taze me bro" I doubt you can ask any questions at these events anyways. Maybe I can get into one of those focus groups by pretending to be a liberal or something. We've been bypassed for years down here because Bush always had Texas wrapped up, so no one bothered to come here. Maybe this year.
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| 158 | walk
ID: 221481011 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 19:40
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Obaaaaaaaaaaaama!
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| 159 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:32
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I really have to insist on an answer to the question, 'What is Obama willing to offer when he reaches across the isle?'
While you are at it, name anything concrete you know Obama plans on doing.
Just for fun name anything he has accomplished in office.
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| 160 | Perm Dude
ID: 141511220 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:37
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Obama sweeps all three tonight.
Clinton has a substantial lead in Ohio, but momentum is swinging Obama's way there. Clinton has to stop Obama cold in TX & OH (a week later comes MS which will go to Obama).
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| 161 | Tree
ID: 411581219 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:38
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I really have to insist on an answer to the question, 'What is Obama willing to offer when he reaches across the isle?'
you won't even read his stance on the issues. you were linked to them, and couldn't be bothered.
While you are at it, name anything concrete you know Obama plans on doing.
see above.
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| 162 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:46
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I skimmed thru the site but didn't download the PDF. Did you read anything at that site, Tree? Do you know anything about Obama?
I don't think my questions are too much to ask of people who are trying to put him in power.
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| 163 | Perm Dude
ID: 141511220 Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:53
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So you believe Obama to be free of details, yet when presented with proposals on his web site you refuse even to look at it because the document is too big?
*shakes head* *mutters*
You can lead a Baldwin to the truth...
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| 164 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 00:10
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You can back him without knowing a thing about him but my reading over his website is insufficient. *shakes head*
Perhaps his new slogan should be 'Surprise Us, Barak'.
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| 165 | Perm Dude
ID: 141511220 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 00:16
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I know plenty about him. I simply refuse to spoonfeed you the information--mostly because when you are led to actual information, you whine about how much there is and refuse to read it.
Besides, the information is easily obtainable. I cannot believe, at this point, that it is anything more than a bunch of foot stamping by you.
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| 166 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 02:19
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All right Baldwin his positions in cliff note version and because I don't have time to babysit you I'll start with point 1, Ethics reform (Perhaps the biggest problem in Washington as lobbying leads to most problems we have.)
Perhaps others will take up other points but this is a start.
Also not to be considered an endorsement I am just trying to keep you from whining.
âI am in this race to tell the corporate lobbyists that their days of setting the agenda in Washington are over. I have done more than any other candidate in this race to take on lobbyists â and won. They have not funded my campaign, they will not get a job in my White House, and they will not drown out the voices of the American people when I am president.â
ETHICS and the Lobbyist Problem In Washington...can you say Cheney Haliburton???
Close the Revolving Door Obama will close the revolving door between the executive branch and K-Street lobbying shops. Obamaâs appointees will serve the American people, not their own financial interests.
Increase Transparency
Obama will increase transparency so that ordinary Americans can understand their government and trust that their money is well spent.
End Wasteful No-Bid Contracts
Obama will clean up government contracting and end the abuse of no-bid contracts.
THE PROBLEM
Lobbyists Write National Policies For example, Vice President Dick Cheneyâs Energy Task Force of oil and gas lobbyists met secretly to develop national energy policy.
Secrecy Dominates Government Actions
The Bush administration has ignored public disclosure rules and has invoked a legal tool known as the âstate secretsâ privilege more than any other previous administration to get cases thrown out of civil court. Wasteful Spending is Out of Control
The current administration has abused its power by handing out contracts without competition to its politically connected friends and supporters. These abuses cost taxpayers billions of dollars each year.
ETHICS
BARACK OBAMAâS PLAN
Shine Light on Washington Lobbying
Centralize Ethics and Lobbying Information for Voters: Obama will create a centralized Internet database of lobbying reports, ethics records, and campaign finance filings in a searchable, sortable and downloadable format.
Require Independent Monitoring of Lobbying Laws and Ethics Rules:
Obama will use the power of the presidency to fight for an independent watchdog agency to oversee the investigation of congressional ethics violations so that the public can be assured that ethics complaints will be investigated. Support Campaign Finance Reform:
1) Obama supports public financing of campaigns combined with free television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests.
2) Obama introduced public financing legislation in the Illinois State Senate, and is the only 2008 candidate to have sponsored Senator Russ Feingoldâs (D-WI) tough bill to reform the presidential public financing system.
Shine the Light on Federal Contracts, Tax Breaks and Earmarks
Create a Public âContracts and Influenceâ Database:
As president, Obama will create a âcontracts and influenceâ database that will disclose how much federal contractors spend on lobbying, and what contracts they are getting and how well they complete them.
Expose Special Interest Tax Breaks to Public Scrutiny:
Barack Obama will ensure that any tax breaks for corporate recipients â or tax earmarks â are also publicly available on the Internet in an easily searchable format.
End Abuse of No-Bid Contracts:
Barack Obama will end abuse of no-bid contracts by requiring that nearly all contract orders over $25,000 be competitively awarded.
Sunlight Before Signing:
Too often bills are rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them. As president, Obama will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days.
Shine Light on Earmarks and Pork Barrel Spending:
Obamaâs Transparency and Integrity in Earmarks Act will shed light on all earmarks by disclosing the name of the legislator who asked for each earmark, along with a written justification, 72 hours before they can be approved by the full Senate.
Bring Americans Back into their Government Hold 21st Century Fireside Chats:
Obama will bring democracy and policy directly to the people by requiring his Cabinet officials to have periodic national broadband townhall meetings to discuss issues before their agencies.
Make White House Communications Public:
Obama will amend executive orders to ensure that communications about regulatory policymaking between persons outside government and all White House staff are disclosed to the public.
Conduct Regulatory Agency Business in Public:
Obama will require his appointees who lead the executive branch departments and rulemaking agencies to conduct the significant business of the agency in public, so that any citizen can watch these debates in person or on the Internet.
Release Presidential Records:
Obama will nullify the Bush attempts to make the timely release of presidential records more difficult.
Free the Executive Branch from Special Interest Influence Close the Revolving Door on Former and
Future Employers:
No political appointees in an Obama administration will be permitted to work on regulations or contracts directly andsubstantially related to their prior employer for two years.
And no political appointee will be able to lobby the executive branch after leaving government service during the remainder of the administration.
Free Career Officials from the Influence of Politics:
Obama will issue an executive order asking all new hires at the agencies to sign a form affirming that no political appointee offered them the job solely on the basis of political affiliation or contribution.
Reform the Political Appointee Process:
FEMA Director Michael Brown was not qualified to head the agency, and the result was a disaster for the people of the Gulf Coast. But in an Obama administration, every official will have to rise to the standard of proven excellence in the agencyâs mission.
OBAMAâS RECORD Federal Ethics Reform
Obama and Senator Feingold (D-WI) took on both parties and proposed ethics legislation that was described as the âgold standardâ for reform. It was because of their leadership that ending subsidized corporate jet travel, mandating disclosure of lobbyistsâ bundling of contributions, and enacting strong new restrictions of lobbyist-sponsored trips became part of the final ethics bill that was signed into law.
The Washington Post wrote in an editorial, âThe final package is the strongest ethics legislation to emerge from Congress yet.â
Google for Government Americans have the right to know how their tax dollars are spent, but that information has been hidden from public view for too long. Thatâs why Barack Obama and Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) passed a law to create a Google-like search engine to allow regular people to track federal grants, contracts, earmarks, and loans online. The
Chicago Sun-Times wrote, âIt would enable the public to see where federal money goes and how it is spent. Itâs a brilliant idea.â Illinois Reform
In 1998, Obama joined forces with former U.S. Sen. Paul Simon (D-IL) to pass the toughest campaign finance law in Illinois history. The legislation banned the personal use of campaign money by Illinois legislators and banned most gifts from lobbyists. Before the law was passed, one organization ranked Illinois worst among 50 states for its campaign finance regulations.
A High Standard
Unlike other candidates Obamaâs campaign refuses to accept contributions from Washington lobbyists and political action committees.
******************
Sheez after reading this if he gets elected and actually does what he says...his days on earth are numbered...this won't be allowed to happen in America.
The lobbyists are our version of Putin's Russia.
Especially the war machine.
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| 167 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 08:03
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Does he get credit for these things even if he doesn't actually make any of this happen?
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| 168 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 08:56
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You're more and more like the 5 yr old...
Daddy, why is the sky blue?
Because of the way light waves get broken up by the atmosphere and the reflected color we see is blue.
Why?
Because thats how our eyes work.
Why?
ad nauseum
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| 170 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 10:55
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Let's be honest here. This entire line of questioning has nothing to do with Obama's positions on issues, proposals or origins of support. That morphed from the original Boldwin #81,
National security will sure be an adventure under president Obama and people with the 'wisdom' of Tree. Someone prove to me Obama's second father wasn't the radical moslem I have heard he was. Please.
When this malicious and fallacious statement was challenged, the tactic was to adroitly retreat to a more acceptable #162,
Do you know anything about Obama?
but the original intent remains. The right wing blogosphere remains full of referencing Obama by his middle name and pointing out that his last name rhymes with Osama. If Obama becomes the Democratic nominee, I expect this immature perpetuation of fear and ignorance to increase, which will further marginalize the relevance of the far right.
Now that Romney, my first choice, has been eliminated due partly to religious discrimination, I find Obama to be the most palatable of the remaining three candidates, though not without reservations. If conservatives wish to remain in play as a viable political entity, they need to drop the B Hussein O foolishness and concentrate on core principles like the size of government and related spending, areas where Obama(and Hillary) is vulnerable. Conservatives need to cease calling proponents of global warming hysterical, while taking hysterical positions like all Muslims want to kill us, necessitating a state of perpetual war, and a fence needs to be built immediately on our Southern border as a solution to our immigration problems.
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| 171 | walk
ID: 221481011 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 10:58
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Agreed, PD. Can't change the rules to suit the outcome.
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| 172 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 11:37
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McCain - I will not talk to Iran
John McCain declared that as president, he would refuse to talk with Iran as long as that nation continues its nuclear weapons program.
In an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel, McCain said: I think we have to punish Iran to force them to abandon their current course.
Asked if he would be willing to talk to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Republican candidate answered:
As long as Iran continues to announce its dedication to making the state of Israel extinct and as long as the country continues to pursue the use of nuclear weapons, I will continue to say that is not an acceptable situation. I will work with other democracies in order to find incentives and punishments for the Iranians.
Questioned about Democrats Barack Obama and Hillary Clintons call for the U.S. to withdraw troops from Iraq as soon as possible, McCain stated:
Senator Clinton and Senator Obama will withdraw our forces from Iraq based on an arbitrary timetable designed for the sake of political expediency and which recklessly ignores the profound human calamity and dire threats to our security that would ensue.
They will not recognize and seriously address the threat posed by an Iran with nuclear ambitions against our ally, Israel, and the entire region
I intend to win the war.
Uhhh, what war? This is why I could never vote for McCain. He has a completely distorted view of what constitutes dire threats to our security and promotes a continuance, if not expansion, of Bush's failed foreign policy.
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| 173 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 13:20
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Questioned about Democrats Barack Obama and Hillary Clintons call for the U.S. to withdraw troops from Iraq as soon as possible, McCain stated:
Senator Clinton and Senator Obama will withdraw our forces from Iraq based on an arbitrary timetable designed for the sake of political expediency and which recklessly ignores the profound human calamity and dire threats to our security that would ensue.
They will not recognize and seriously address the threat posed by an Iran with nuclear ambitions against our ally, Israel, and the entire region
I intend to win the war.
And that part, constitutes the bitter, bitter pill I would have to swallow in order to vote for McCain.
As it stands now, it is beginning to appear as if Obama may indeed pull off the upset and come away wth the Dem nomination. OH-TX are currently key plays in the Dem race and Obama has been making some progress in each. Hopefully, that trend will both, continue and be sufficient.
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| 174 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 00:15
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Will he get George Soros' undue moneyed influence out of politics?
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| 175 | Boxman
ID: 571114225 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 06:29
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They're thinking about The Great Leader right now Boldwin. They're so hypnotized by his speaking ability that they have no will of their own. Perhaps when the Two Minute Hate is over...
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| 176 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 07:33
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See this thread post#7 for eactly what Obama means to do for campaign finance "reform".
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| 177 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 08:04
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#175
Who is "They?"
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| 178 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader
ID: 01629107 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 08:12
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They're so hypnotized by his speaking ability that they have no will of their own.
Yes Obama supporters are completely blind to the fact that no one has proven that his stepfather isn't a radical Muslim which makes an Obama presidency a grave national security threat.
Don't worry, Boxman, Baldwin sure managed to grab my attention on that one.
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| 179 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 08:55
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Who is "They?"
pretty sure he's speaking of GW supporters. there's not much else that can explain his selection in 2000 and his election in 2004.
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| 181 | Perm Dude
ID: 10136157 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 10:22
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Or maybe not
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| 182 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:13
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That Lewis is even contemplating a switch, is good news for Obama. Given that Lewis initially backed Hillary, that he is re-evaluating that position, shows that Obama's campaign is gaining vast amounts of momentum.
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| 183 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:28
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That Lewis is even contemplating a switch, is good news for Obama
Sure it is. What's bad news is that most of the Superdelegates publicly declare their loyalty before even one of their constituents has ever cast a ballot.
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| 184 | walk
ID: 381351512 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 18:25
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Public Financing
So, I am not sure if the request from McCain means that if Obama were the nominee and McCain the nominee, then they both have to use public financing and only public financing, or just use public financing in addition to private financing but abide by the rules that go with public financing. Interesting. And, what about Clinton?
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| 185 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 18:30
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Did he really make that commitment? If so, he's not as smart as I thought.
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| 186 | walk
ID: 381351512 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 18:36
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I know, I cannot tell, bili. It seems like McCain says it's very clear that Obama made that commitment. I think maybe at that time, when he was a huge underdog to Hillary, he could very well have played it that way. Now that he's a money machine and slightly ahead, it could potentially be giving away his hudge $ advantage. I dunno. I think either way, he trashes McCain in a landslide. I really do.
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| 187 | biliruben
ID: 5610442715 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 18:42
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I hope so. I was much more confident when it was looking like Romney or Huckleberry.
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| 188 | walk
ID: 381351512 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 18:50
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Yeah, I can see how folks would think McCain has more of a chance cos he can sway the indie/moderate votes like he used, but I don't think he will have it both ways -- convincing the base and maintaining moderates. I think Obama will get the mods, all of the young vote, and all of the Dem base. If Obama is the nominee, against McCain, I just see a real big turnout consistent with the primaries and just a wave of a support for a sorta new guard. This is partly based on what I see in the primaries, partly in terms of his turnout at speeches, and the reaction against the last 8 years, mostly not so good. Just a "gut feeling" (Bush pun intended).
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| 189 | Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 19:26
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I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. Hillary is not out of this by a long shot. It would be a big mistake to underestimate her obsession to set up shop in the White House again. There are lots of delegates left in Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania. Given that the majority of superdelegates are a part of the Dem machine that Hillary has courted and nurtured, Obama will need to win at least one of those states and be competitive in the others. His ace in the hole are polls that show him matching up better against McCain, which could sway a lot of those superdelegates his way. But the Clintons are war-tested and not ready to be put out to pasture quite yet.
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| 190 | Perm Dude
ID: 10136157 Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 22:06
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List of superdelegates and their committments.
One thing I didn't realize is that, as of right now, even the superdelagates from Michigan & Florida don't count.
I used to know why superdelagates exist (kind of a moderating force? To act in a tie?) but pretty clearly the use of them will change in the Democratic Party in the future.
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| 192 | walk
ID: 381351512 Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 10:42
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I like Kristoff's op cos he's largely complimentary of McCain saying what he does best as a leader is stand behind his principles, in the face of in-party opposition. However, in those instances where he has backtracked, it really looks bad.
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| 194 | Perm Dude
ID: 017218 Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 14:09
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NYT story on McCain is tearing up the blogosphere
McCain's respose is strong, but has a couple of holes. His original statement didn't take on the allegations head on--seemed like a non-response to be. One of those "strong non-responses" favored by politicians trying to get their bearings (or hiding something):
U.S. Senator John McCain's presidential campaign today issued the following statement by Communications Director Jill Hazelbaker:
"It is a shame that the New York Times has lowered its standards to engage in a hit and run smear campaign. John McCain has a 24-year record of serving our country with honor and integrity. He has never violated the public trust, never done favors for special interests or lobbyists, and he will not allow a smear campaign to distract from the issues at stake in this election.
"Americans are sick and tired of this kind of gutter politics, and there is nothing in this story to suggest that John McCain has ever violated the principles that have guided his career."
The story reads like there is more there, but the lawyers sliced out a bunch. I have to think, as it, this is either a complete fabrication or there is a lot more there.
McCain has gotten off with relatively few Keating Five references this election. Maybe this will bring them back, for good or ill.
pd
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| 195 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 14:43
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a hit and run smear campaign.
I love poorly designed cliches. So, where did the NY Times run after this story? There are still just off Times Square, they haven't gone anywhere.
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| 196 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 16:40
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Josh Marshal This is an odd story for a couple reasons. We know that the McCain Camp went to the mattresses to get this story spiked back in December. And some heavy legal muscle was apparently brought to bear. When a story has to go through that much lawyering it often comes out pretty stilted and with some obvious lacunae. And this one definitely qualifies. Reading the Times piece it struck me as a bit of a jumble. The reference to a possible affair is there in the lede. But then most of the piece is a rehash of a lot of older material about McCain's record before getting back to the relationship with Iseman.
At the moment it seems to me that we have a story from the Times that reads like it's had most of the meat lawyered out of it. And a lot of miscellany and fluff has been packed in where the meat was. Still, if the Times sources are to be believed, the staff thought he was having an affair with Iseman and when confronted about it he in so many words conceded that he was (much of course hangs on 'behaving inappropriately' but then, doesn't it always?) and promised to shape up. And whatever the personal relationship it was a stem wound about a lobbying branch.
I find it very difficult to believe that the Times would have put their chin so far out on this story if they didn't know a lot more than they felt they could put in the article, at least on the first go. But in a decade of doing this, I've learned not to give any benefits of the doubt, even to the most esteemed institutions.
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| 197 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514 Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 16:50
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The New Republic With its Theory The publication of the article capped three months of intense internal deliberations at the Times over whether to publish the negative piece and its most explosive charge about the affair. It pitted the reporters investigating the story, who believed they had nailed it, against executive editor Bill Keller, who believed they hadn't. It likely cost the paper one investigative reporter, who decided to leave in frustration. And the Times ended up publishing a piece in which the institutional tensions about just what the story should be are palpable.
Some observers say that the piece, published today, was not ready to roll. On Wednesday evening, much of the cable news commentary focused on the Times' heavy use of innuendo and circumstantial evidence. This morning, Time magazine managing editor Rick Stengel told MSNBC that he wouldn't have published such a piece. Since the story broke, the McCain campaign has been doing its best to pin the story on the Times and make the media angle the focus.
Indeed, when TNR started reporting on the whereabouts of the story on February 4th, all parties seemed intent on denying its viability.
Of course, each of these sources had reason to keep the story from breaking. But what actually pushed it into publication? The reporters working on the investigation declined to comment. In an email to me on February 19, Keller wrote: "This sounds like a pointless exercise to me--speculating about reporting that may or may not result in an article. But if that's what Special Correspondents of The New Republic do, speculate away. When we have something to say, we'll say it in the paper."
Late in the day on February 19, Baquet sent a final draft of the Times piece to Keller and Times managing editor Jill Abramson in New York. After a series of discussions, the three editors decided to publish the investigation. "We published the story when it was ready which is what we always do," Baquet told TNR this morning. He added: "Nothing forced our hand. Nothing pushed us to move faster other than our own natural desire that we wanted to get a story in the paper that met all of our standards."
When the Times did finally publish the long-gestating investigation last night, the McCain camp immediately tried to train the glare back on the Gray Lady. In fact, McCain advisers stated that TNR's inquiries pressured the Times to publish its story before it was ready so this magazine wouldn't scoop the Times' piece. "They did this because The New Republic was going to run a story that looked back at the infighting there, the Judy Miller-type power struggles -- they decided that they would rather smear McCain than suffer a story that made The New York Times newsroom look bad," Salter told reporters last night in Toledo, Ohio.
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