Forum: pol
Page 3050
Subject: McCain is George Soros' Trojan Horse


  Posted by: Boldwin - [3013265] Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 05:03

McCain is actually propped up by George Soros even between elections.
McCain founded the Alexandria, Va.-based Reform Institute as a vehicle to receive funding from George Soros’ Open Society Institute and Teresa Heinz Kerry’s Tides Foundation and several other prominent non-profit organizations. McCain used the institute to promote his political agenda and provide compensation to key campaign operatives between elections.
Something McCain forgot to feature in his recent appearance at CPAC.

Soros and Moveon.org have both major party candidates in their pocket.
 
1nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 08:32

Hey maybe McCain is Viet Nam's Manchurian candidate also.

Interesting Soros would support McCain considering McCains thirst for war and Soros being so against the war...but then Soros did have Halliburten in his hedge fund.

 
2Tree
ID: 3533298
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 08:48
Soros being so against the war...but then Soros did have Halliburten in his hedge fund

Soros is very clearly a Conservative Hawk Trojan Horse. He's very clearly in the pocket of the GOP.
 
3Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:18
You could be replaced by a brick, Tree.
 
4Jag
ID: 5112883
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:20
I think a retarded ape would be closer.
 
5Tree
ID: 411581219
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 22:46
oh look, the Troll and his pet are tossing insults again.

you're both such tiny, tiny, sad, pathetic, little men.
 
6Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Tue, Feb 12, 2008, 23:01
This hits the nail on the head.
 
7Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 07:28
Soros’s coup was ten years in the making. Since 1994, he had worked with a network of leftwing foundations to fund a $140-million-dollar lobbying drive in favor of “campaign finance reform.” The campaign succeeded in passing the McCain-Feingold Act, which, by outlawing “soft-money” donations, in effect de-funded the Democratic Party. As a result of the Act, the Democratic Party could no longer collect the multi-million-dollar donations from labor unions which were its lifeblood.

Soros stepped in with the Shadow Party to collect the donations instead.

Having driven the Democratic Party to the brink of bankruptcy, Soros then offered to save it. In effect, he privatized the Party, by setting up a network of privately-owned, non-profit groups which would raise the big campaign contributions the Party was now forbidden to raise itself.

In a new book, which describes Soros’s achievement, we call this network the Shadow Party, because it acts as a mirror image or shadow of the real Democratic Party. During the 2004 election cycle, the Shadow Party raised more than $300 million for the Democrat cause but spent the money itself. This allowed it to shape the politics of the Democratic campaign and control the party’s future.
- Shadow Party

Rpublicans, this is coming to a party near you.

Oh wait, Obama will save the electoral process from Soros' money's corrupting influence.
In December of 2006, Soros met with Democratic presidential hopeful Senator Barack Obama in his New York office. Soros had previously hosted a fund-raiser for Obama during the latter's 2004 campaign for the Senate.

On January 16, 2007, Obama announced the creation of a presidential exploratory committee, and within hours Soros sent the senator a contribution of $2,100, the maximum amount allowable under campaign finance laws. Later that week the New York Daily News reported that Soros would back Obama over Senator Hillary Clinton
 
8sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 08:42
read the link.....*coughbullshitcough*
 
9Perm Dude
ID: 28140147
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 09:16
Typical crackpot theory. Fearmongering still works among the far right, where light rarely reaches.
 
10Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 09:36
Follow the money.
 
11walk
ID: 221481011
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 09:43
So, what is this author suggesting as the alternative? Is he saying for repubs to support and vote Huckabee? I cannot find the "so, the MSM does not get it, and we need to reassert our conservative principles now," so therefore we have to do...??
 
12Perm Dude
ID: 28140147
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 09:48
Theirs is not to offer solutions walk. Only questions.
 
13Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 09:49
Another troubling Soros developement is that he has set up private foundations that serve as 'cutouts' which allow donors to donate anonymously.

Thank you for cleaning of campaign finance Soros/McCain/[soon-to-be president/Soros-sockpuppet-Obama]
 
14Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 09:50
Give up. Join God's Kingdom.
 
15Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:04
Walk

You are using the wrong metaphor.

Instead of thinking roadmap, think sign posted at site of historic tragedy reading 'You are here'.
 
16sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:08
Give up. Join God's Kingdom.

So in short your "solution", is to;

1) dont vote
2) dont participate
3) dont get involved
4) bitch about it
5) get carried along in a wave
6) feel good (superior?) about(because of?) your theoretical after-life


Does that about sum it up?
 
17Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:11
You forgot the part about tossing shame out the window when it comes to demonizing his political opponents (which he technically isn't supposed to have in the first place).
 
18Perm Dude
ID: 28140147
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:11
I really don't understand Baldwin's obsession with pointing out that Soros might be able to skirt campaign finance laws which he (Baldwin) is against in the first place.

Wait--I do understand. It is all about "Soros = Satan."

The heaven metaphor was nice, Baldwin. You'll only get there by being more like Jesus, however.
 
19Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:12
But getting into your mindset just to be generous, I cannot imagine a human way out short of an uprising at the Republican convention after an inconclusive first vote or a Reaganesque wonder-candidate doing to the Republican Party what the Republican party did to the Whig party.
 
20Perm Dude
      ID: 28140147
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:13
What is happening now is more like what Reagan did to a fractured, unsure, and intellectually vacuous Democratic Party of the late 1970's.
 
21Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:14
And for Dems, well they never had a soul to lose. They've been about win at all costs for so long that there is nothing left to recover.
 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 28140147
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:18
ROFL! Nice. Remember, Karl Rove is a Republican. I didn't see you with even a peep as "Mr. 51%" went about splitting the country in his efforts to win.
 
23Myboyjack
      ID: 56039812
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:19
really don't understand Baldwin's obsession with pointing out that Soros might be able to skirt campaign finance laws which he (Baldwin) is against in the first place.

Let me see if I understand you PD. People like me, who were against McCain/Feingold can't complain when, just as we predicted, the law empowers people like Soros and encumbents who have the wherewithall to make a sham of the law, while keeping other, less wired-in speakers at bay by restricting their abilty to access the means of publicizing their political sppech. OK.
 
24Perm Dude
      ID: 28140147
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:25
I'm not convinced that any laws are being broken, MBJ. Like nearly everything from his source, the objection is to laws being skirted is never about the law but about the presumed party affiliation of those doing the skirting.

But if Baldwin is truly against the law, the objection being raised is that the law doesn't work, and then using Soros' efforts as evidence against the broken law. It isn't to whine that that Democrat appears to be breaking the law.

I would think that, if true, this is the objection you would raise yourself, since party affiliation is less important than doing the right thing.
 
25Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:38
Sarge

Psalm 2:1-
2 Why have the nations been in tumult
And the national groups themselves kept muttering an empty thing?

 2 The kings of earth take their stand
And high officials themselves have massed together as one*
Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,
 3 [Saying:] “Let us tear their bands apart
And cast their cords away from us!”

 4 The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh;
Jehovah himself will hold them in derision.

 5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger
And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them,
 6 [Saying:] “I, even I, have installed my king
Upon Zion, my holy mountain.”

 7 Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah;
He has said to me: “You are my son;
I, today, I have become your father.

 8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance
And the ends of the earth as your own possession.

 9 You will break them with an iron scepter
,
As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”


Mass togther* with the losers or join the genuinely stronger side.

*note to PD
"quit being fashioned after this sytem of things" - Rom 12:2
 
26Perm Dude
      ID: 28140147
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:42
Baldwin, on this forum you are a purveyor of hate-filled speech and half-truths, directed at those who, in your own words, "have no soul to lose."

Maybe elsewhere you are a virtuous sort who follows the examples of Jesus to a T. But not here. Here you are not heaven bound, no matter how much you try to thrown a towel over yourself.
 
27Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:49
PD

I don't hate you at all. Despite your turning into a troll lately I really like you. I have done you the immense favor of identifying that personality trait of yours that will get you killed permanently in these last days if you don't learn how to fight it.
 
28Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:50
Shadow Party?

George Soros is actually quite candid about his political agenda, as opposed to a hack like Horowitz that would have us believe that Soros has the power to coerce McCain and Feingold to write legislation, get the Congress to approve it, and George W Bush to sign it.
Soros has an agenda, but it isn't hidden and it isn't even all that nefarious, especially when compared to say the Carlyle Group, whose agenda is to assure that this county's production of WMDs is unabated and unopposed.

The claim that there exists Soros' money's corrupting influence and the feeble attempt to portray Soros-sockpuppet-Obama as legitimate items for political discussion underlies facts not in evidence.

Rather than make these opinionated claims of corruption and sockpuppet devotion, based on Horowitz's hatred of Soros likely generated by Soros' criticism of AIPAC, establish the claims of corruption and blind devotion with specific facts and evidence.

There are literally hundreds of interviews with George Soros where you can find information that would lead to charges of corruption(not influence)if you think you can connect the dots.

Perhaps we can glean some evidence of corruption from the right wing
Newsmax.

Dear Newsmax Reader,

He may be a polarizing figure in the United States and East Europe, but he is also one of the world's great investors.

This month Financial Intelligence Report takes a comprehensive look at George Soros. We reveal his investment principles, his latest global economic assessment, and his latest investment portfolio. You'll want to get your hands on this latest briefing.


So I guess the right wing is saying that Soros is corrupt, but we want to know how he does it so we can do it too.
 
29Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 10:58
The claim that there exists Soros' money's corrupting influence...underlies facts not in evidence. - PV

Other than that his two handpicked candidates are leading, you mean. Campaign finance reform worthy of the name presumably would preclude that sort of fiancial influence over the process.
 
30Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:03
his two handpicked candidates

Whatever Baldwin and Boxman's beef with Soros, I'm still unclear over why they thing Obama is so beholden to him. We are talking about exactly one fundraiser plus Soros' own contribution of $2100.00, right? How many Obama fundraisers have there been? How much money has Obama raised?

Really, how much of that came from Soros?
 
31sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:06
I have done you the immense favor of...


There's that "holier than thou" thing coming through again. As I recall, swuch an attitude is precisely contrary to the teachings you profess to follow. *shrug* Oh well.....dream on.
 
32Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:13
Look at the list of foundations Soros controls and ask yourself how many of those Obama won't take money from. You can look it up.
 
33walk
      ID: 221481011
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:26
Oy veh. What a whatever thread. McCain is going to be the nominee; there are just not enough delegates left for Huckabee to take it. So, given this, what with the conservatives do to get their way? Will they vote for McCain and rally around him and realize he's more conservative than Hillary and Obama, or will they be so stubborn as to opt out and let the Dem win, supposedly screw it up even more than Bush, and then come back in 2012 with a knockout punch of a contender in the name of...Crist? (Charlie Crist). Pun intended.
 
34Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:28
the list of foundations Soros controls

Foundations?

98.3% of the money he's raised came from individual contributions
 
35Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:40
Good find, MITH. Who knows, maybe he means it. I was on the exact same site going over McCain's revolving door ppl when I cam back here and noticed your post.

I still gotta believe Soros' Moveon.org and so many other foundations are shakin the money tree for Obabma. I mean when Soros comes right out and announces he's backing from day one, it prolly means more than a check for $2,100.
 
36Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:04
when Soros comes right out and announces he's backing from day one

Baldwin, Soros announced he was supporting Obama less than 3 weeks ago.

Care to go for a hat trick?
 
37Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:08
Let me get this off my cut-n-paste buffer and I'll look into that...

Seems Obama's aversion to PAC money isn't quite that principled...
Obama "used campaign donations generated by PACs and lobbyists to bankroll the birth of his White House bid -- though he's banning that money for his presidential 2008 race," Lynn Sweet reported[2] February 9, 2007, in the Chicago Sun-Times.

"Obama's conversion to a laudable higher standard does not negate that money from sources he now disdains helped paved the way for his kickoff in Springfield [Illinois] on Saturday [February 10, 2007].

"Obama has been raising campaign cash for two political pots -- Obama 2010 Inc., his Senate re-election committee, and the Hopefund, another war chest. Obama, until his recent conversion on the eve of his presidential run, took more than $1 million from political action committees.

"An examination of disbursements from the two funds reveals how Obama was able to use legal loopholes commonly used by other presidential contenders to pay for White House testing-of-the-water expenses," Sweet wrote.[3]

 
38Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:16
On January 16, 2007, Obama announced the creation of a presidential exploratory committee, and within hours Soros sent the senator a contribution of $2,100, the maximum amount allowable under campaign finance laws. Later that week the New York Daily News reported that Soros would back Obama over Senator Hillary Clinton...
Meanwhile your own link doesn't contradict this and your link was from a 13 month old NYT article which you claim is a three week old endorsement.

Care to deflate that chest a bit?
 
39Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:20
That's true. He did accept and spend money from special interest groups before he took his stand against lobbyists and PACs.
 
40Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:21
Re post 38:

My bad on misreading the dates.
 
41Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:23
Regardless, you will not find a recent major party nominee with anything close to Obama's anti-special interest record.
 
42Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:29
Give up. Join God's Kingdom.

Do as i say, not as i do, eh? if your behaviour on here is indication - especially your behaviour towards me - you won't be joining God anywhere.

but hey, it's your soul, and you can do with it as you please.
 
43Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:44
Campaign finance reform worthy of the name presumably would preclude that sort of fiancial influence over the process.

McCain and Obama leading because of Soros' money is a wild extrapolation based on speculation and conspiracy.

Are you really going to have us belive that Obama's rise in this campaign is due to the support of George Soros? Or McCain's.
You do realize that you haven't proven these claims, or even given a coherent premise based on anything other than your personal bias?

Last month, the two candidates garnering the most money from the defense industry were Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney. By your standards, if Hillary and Romney were the current frontrunners, they would be the handpicked candidates of the defense industry's money's corrupt influence.

Many organizations contribute to both Republicans and Democrats. That isn't proof of handpicked candidates or undue financial influence of the process.

McCain is the frontrunner because of winner take all primaries; critical endorsements by Crist, Arnold and others; name recognition; and a weak field of candidates, not because of Soros' money.

Obama is the frontrunner because Hillary is hated by lots of Democrats and independents; her arrogance in appearing to be the ordained nominee; her husband; and Obama's ability to connect with a broad base of voters, especially bringing younger voters into the process, not Soros' money.

Your description of Obama as Soros sockpuppet along with your smear of Obama's second father as a radical Muslim, shows that you're not really interested in a discussion about this election, just innuendo and unsupported talking points.

But just for the sake of arguement, please specify what policies and what legislation Soros will dictate to either McCain or Obama to promote if they become president and how these policies/legislation will benefit Soros financially, which would be the basis of a corruption charge. Something along the lines of Duncan Hunter's acceptance of money from the defense industry to steer contracts to contributors when he was in charge of defense appropriations would suffice.
 
44Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 15:25
Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi has recently hired Joseph Onek to be her Senior Counsel.

His more recent work [is] as a Senior Policy Analyst with the Open Society Institute (OSI), [Soros' flagship organization]

The OSI funnels millions of dollars into various leftist causes, including euthanasia, open borders, abortion, homosexual activism, marijuana legalization, the undermining of our nation’s war on terrorism and other neo-Marxist visions of social justice. A list of OSI’s grantees (posted on the “discoverthenetworks.org” web site) reads like a phone book of every anti-American, pro-abortion, pro-homosexual group in America.

 
45sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 15:33
including euthanasia aka...letting one decide for themselves.

abortion..see above

homosexual activism...see above

marijuana legalization...see above

undermining of our nation’s war on terrorism and other neo-Marxist visions of social justice...laughable soundbites meant to instill unwarranted fear in the uneducated masses.





 
46Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 15:57
i love the language of lies...

"pro-abortion"? i don't know one single person who is pro-abortion.

"pro-homosexual"? what does that mean. i'm in favor of homosexuals? well, i'm in favor of them having equal rights....

"anti-american"? what exactly is anti-american about being pro abortion rights, pro homosexual rights, and so on and so forth?

that was a funny post. thanks Baldwin!
 
47Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 16:09
If Tree and Sarge are moved to give Soros a big wet kiss for his troubles I am not surprised.

I just don't want this stuff flying under the radar.
 
48Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 16:25
Carville, offering good news for both Republicans and Democrats:

"For both you Democrats out there, [speaking at homebuilder's convention] I got good news for you. We have to literally talk our way out of winning this election.

For the Republicans, being a lifelong member of the Democratic party, I can assure you we are perfectly capable of doing that."
 
49Tree
      ID: 61521415
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 16:54
If Tree and Sarge are moved to give Soros a big wet kiss for his troubles I am not surprised.

actually, i'm moved to counter the lies that you, your linked source, and people like you prefer to spread, instead of being honest.

but, again, it's your soul.
 
50Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 17:19
Note to lurkers and new posters: It is generally wise to ignore trolls nine times out of ten.
 
51tree on the treo
      ID: 40842210
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 17:29
yea...you're right...i shouldn't have taken the bait and responded to you...
 
52Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 17:40
Obama on Soros' opinion that Israel should negotiate with Palestine whether or not Hamas recognizes their right to exist:
Yesterday, Mr. Obama's presidential campaign issued a dissent from the Hungarian-born billionaire's assessment. "Mr. Soros is entitled to his opinions," a campaign spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, said. "But on this issue he and Senator Obama disagree. The U.S. and our allies are right to insist that Hamas — a terrorist organization dedicated to Israel's destruction — meet very basic conditions before being treated as a legitimate actor. AIPAC is one of many voices that share this view."
You'll note of course those comments came from the Obama camp just a few weeeks after Soros announced his support for Obama.
 
53Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 17:53
I'll bet McCain puts some space between himself and Soros too.
 
54Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 17:55
Perhaps, tho Obama will have beaten him to the punch by a year.
 
55Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 18:03
BTW MITH, since you love a good google-hunt, check out the radical ex-weathermen who have had Obama over to their home for a fundraiser. I am willing to bet Obama puts some space between himself and their views on Isreal.

Love to be a fly on the wall while Hillary calculates if she dare bring that up...such a small step from Rezko...
 
56Perm Dude
      ID: 28140147
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 18:07
Big step from Rezko . Particularly since no one knows for sure if Obama was there at this supposed "fundraiser."

Although, maybe not. It both cases it seems more like a lot of people trying to trash Obama but have nothing really on him.
 
57Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 18:16
BTW while you are googling, check out the comments from people actually at the Obama/AIPAC speech.

Said all the right things in a robotic fashion minus his usual pannache. The wet noodle handshake, better than no handshake?
 
58Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 18:18
PD

He goes way back with Ayers. You have no reason to doubt it.
 
59Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 18:28
I posted that same info last week, MITH, but, as expected, it got no response from Baldwin.

Thinking that conjuring the name George Soros as akin to the embodiment of all that is evil is the almost humorous cariacature that has become the far right.

Soros is anti-American? Actually, Soros is an illuminating example of the American dream - a man of humble beginnings able to use free market capitalism to become one of the country's richest men. Having achieved that success he uses his money for a variety of private and charitable organizations that he is openly passionate about. If he were a Republican, they would be exhorting him as a great American philanthropist.



If he donated to the Alliance Defense Fund, instead of the ACLU, they'd cheer him. If he supported Focus on the Family instead of People for the American Way, they'd canonize him. If he supported the American Life League instead of Planned Parenthood, they'd nominate him for sainthood. If he donated to the NRA instead of the Sierra Club, they'd invite him to the national convention..and pay him!!
If he financed the Swift Boat Vets instead of finanacially opposing GWB's 2004 re-election bid, they'd call him a shrewd political operative.

But the far right hates him for his politics, so they demonize him beyond any sense of realism.
None of this makes him anti-American, corrupt, a svengali for the current Presidential hopefuls, a threat to the nation's security or a neo-Marxist, whatever that is.
 
60Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 18:29
His list of contributions shows one for $200 from a certain William Ayers. Can this possibly be the same William Ayers, now a Chicago professor, who used to plant bombs in the Seventies and has said: "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough"? His partner, Bernardine Dohrn, once "declared war" on the US government.

To be perfectly clear, the $200 campaign contribution cited by Hitchens is yet to be located. Ayers' name does not appear on any of Obama's political action committee reports—Obama for Illinois, Obama for Congress 2000, Obama 2010, or Obama for America—filed with the Federal Election Commission .
Not very juicy. They served on a couple of panels and a dinner together. BFD. Now I guess you can call him both an Islamist and a terrorist.
 
61Perm Dude
      ID: 28140147
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 18:58
read to the end, MITH. The updates undercut it all.

They can't even find a single donation, and wimp out with a "might be under a different name."

Journalistic excellence.
 
62Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 19:05
Ah. Thanks PD:
CONCLUSION:
At this point, although the cited sources establish that Ayers, Dohrn, and Obama share a social and academic relationship, there is no documentation for the alleged $200 political campaign contribution to Obama.
 
63sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 19:10
I thought it was FOXSPEWS where if "you couldnt prove you didnt, then you must have", was the criteria for journalistic integrity?
 
64Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 19:46
If Kerry's radical pals didn't derail him Ayers and Dorn won't derail Obama. I'm just fleshing out who this mystery man is. It wasn't about a $200 donation. It's about holding fundraisers at their hideout...err house. I guess Hillary would just be jealous of his kool friends. You guys don't get how the che poster crowd comes across in fly-over country.
 
65Tree
      ID: 23181419
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 20:18
It's only a matter of time before Baldwin points out that Obama "probably forced white women to have sex with him", "quite possibly made his money dealing drugs", and "may have beaten several women he dated."
 
66Perm Dude
      ID: 28140147
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 20:54
They don't even know if Obama was there, Baldwin. You need to read your fake news more closely.
 
67Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 21:07
Blogger who voted for Obama confirms Obama at Ayers-Dohrn livingroom fundraiser.
Get to know Barack Obama
When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the livingroom of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. They were launching him--introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread. His "bright eyes and easy smile" struck me as contrived and calculated--maybe because I was supporting another candidate. Since then, I've never heard him say anything new or earthshaking, or support anything that would require the courage of his convictions. I only voted for him in this last race--because his opponent was a pinhead. And I've been mostly alone in my views. But maybe that's changing.
Yeah, he was there.
 
68Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 21:21
#67
If you can't believe a source named red rabbit, who can you believe?

There's really a silver lining in all this. Imagine if Obama hadn't come along in this contest. We'd be subjected to a revival of the Hillaryfile, and even though much of it I fully believe, it's boringly redundant.



 
69biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 02:52
I find this conspiracy much more on-mark than the Soros nonsense.

John McCain and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:

I never thought I would ever defend the dolts in our press corps for their crush on McCain, but I think that they have a point. Even if they don't understand it.

As you said, McCain is wingnutty as hell and not overly-principled. But he is still anathema to many wingnuts. This is not because the wingnuts are even more extremist than McCain, as you suggest. It is hard to be more extremist than McCain. There is another explanation.

The VWRC is a conspiracy, composed of several factions, most of whom hate each others' guts. The economic predators sneer at the Taliban, as their lawful prey. The Taliban correctly view the predators as godless ghouls. The ultranationalists correctly view the predators as having no loyalty to the US. The neocons think that the whole pack is ni kultyurni. The ultranationalists and predators correctly view the neocons as mutant Trotskyites, useful only for propaganda. (Nobody trusts the neocons or libertarians; they are too tainted by Enlightenment ideas.)

But the VRWC still coheres as a conspiracy, because they are all willing to cede what the other faction most wants, in return for getting what they most want. The predators get economic predation: on the middle class and on other countries. The ultranationalists and neocons get their belligerency and wars, as long as it doesn't hurt the predators' balance sheets. The Taliban get their courts, as long as the predators' daughters can fly to Sweden when necessary. And so on. (The predators are more equal than the other factions.) The racists and nativists and other unpleasant sorts are not really part of this conspiracy, but the conspiracy is happy to feed them raw meat in exchange for their votes.


Read the whole thing.
 
70Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 09:16
Who knows if it's true or not. They were professional colleagues, both with Chicago area Universities. The fundraiser, if it did take place, would have been during Obama's first run for political office, for state legislator in 1995.

Ayers was a 60s era radical but a rather inconsequential one. No one ever suffered any injuries as a result from his groups' activities, except for a few of their own members, who accidentially blew themselves up. He was wanted by the FBI but was never incarcerated and today lives out in the open because the 5-year statute of limitations on his charges expired. While on the run, he and his wife were ultimately expelled from the group for trying to get them to surrender.

He's certainly not someone a Presidential candidate wants any history with but he's really not a consequentiol character, either. there is no evidence beyond an anonymous account of any significant relationship between the two. And even if that account is true, we're talking about a single state district fundraiser from 12 years ago during Obama's first political campaign. Still not very juicy.
 
71Razor
      ID: 420241513
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 09:34
Not very juicy? What is the only thing Baldwin views as worse than the godless NWO-types who seek to destroy America and all other soveriegn nations? Dirty hippies.
 
72Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 10:31
i wonder if Baldwin would accept as the truth various random blogs that talk about all the negatives of the JWs...
 
73sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:24
Nope. Those are simply evidence of Satan at work. (Like the Masons Tree.)
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:29
You guys aren't even mildly curious what sort of person Obama truly is, are you? Not a single Obama supporter cares what sort of person he is. Amazing. Democracy, what a concept.

And truth be told, half the R party will just let this complete unknown quantity walk into the WH as well.

Why even have an election? Someone toss a coin.
 
75sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:34
Boldy...we are curious, yes. But we are NOT going to take the word of those with an obvious agenda and flawed logic and failed "leaps of faith" as defacto judge/jury as to his character.

Rather, I looked at his writings, at his record in the State Legislature, at his Senate performance, at his history of bringing conflicting groups together and hammering out a compromise. THOSE are to me, much more tell-tale signs as to "who" Obama is. Not your "he's a Dem and therfore fvcking evil" ultra-conservative agenda driven sources who claim "because he cant prove he didnt take money from XXX, then he must have" whacked out nut-cases.
 
76Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:35
If when you say "curious" you mean gulping down utter bullshit like Kool Aid, then, nope, we aren't. If you mean that none of us have read anything about his past, well, you are wrong.

Baldwin, you have come completely unhinged. It's been years since you've posted anything worth reading. You should be embarrassed.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:44
SZ

You are completely misreading me.

At this point I don't care in the slightest who even wins. I just am trying to get a reading on this guy and I can't fathom why a political forum couldn't even muster mild curiousity about what it is that 'We can do' in Obama's words.
 
78Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:45
You guys aren't even mildly curious what sort of person Obama truly is, are you?

Of coures I am. But I'm not the least bit interested in indulging unsupported right wing nutball fantasies that he is an Islamist or a terrorist sympathizer or whatever concoction your low personal standards lead you to entertain.
 
79Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:50
Of coures I am. - MITH

The proof of that is not in evidence.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:51
I'm conceding an Obama win. Start bragging about the specific wonders we can expect from your wonderchild.
 
81Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:06
-We will continue to get dubiously-referenced, shadowy theories from you for 4 years, at least.

-You'll be talking less about the Clintons

-No longer will having a black baby be a deterrant to being President.

:)
 
82walk
      ID: 381351512
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:18
Right, I am curious, very curious what type of person Obama is, but you are implying he is something very different than what we already know. I don't think he is more dissimilar than the person described in his books and that has been in the media spotlight for the last several months. He could have supposed "skeletons," I guess, but I don't think he's some kinda nefarious alien abductor or more seriously, a "shady character" or something. I don't believe he walks on water or is perfect, but I don't know too many faults. I am not assuming there are deep dark bad secrets, and I don't think his campaign is just fluff, good speeches, etc. Hillary and McCain are attacking his overt strengths, his charisma and oratory hoping to create doubt in that if he is strong in public , he must therefore be weak in other important areas (judgment, decision making, knowledge). I don't buy into that false argument unless there's data pointing to him not knowing his policies, not making decisive and good decisions, and not being able to stand up to tough foes. All of these things are presented now as weaknesses by Hillary, who needs to campaign more aggressively now that Obama has momentum.
 
83Jag
      ID: 5112883
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:51
Charisma and oratory strengths are overrated. The only benefit to these skills would be less intentional sabotage to consumer confidence by the Liberal media and the hate speech coming from the Left will finally stop.

If his policies lean far to left, we will have another Jimmy Carter and it won't matter if harps play and butterflies spew from his mouth when he talks, the country will be wishing for the good ol' days when we had George W. Bush.
 
84Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:52
the hate speech coming from the Left

ding
 
85boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:56
If his policies lean far to left, we will have another Jimmy Carter and it won't matter if harps play and butterflies spew from his mouth when he talks, the country will be wishing for the good ol' days when we had George W. Bush.

how can you be both right and so wrong in the same sentence.
 
86sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:58
I do believe charisma and oratory skills, were HUGELY responsible for Reagans election. You remember him Jag? The apparent "model" of conservativism?
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:58
the hate speech coming from the Left will finally stop.

What will you call it when if have to endure 4 years of the far right trying to paint him as an islamist terrorist? Objective reasoning?
 
88Jag
      ID: 5112883
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:18
Don't exaggerate, Mith, no reasonable Conservative is going to paint him as an Islamic terrorist.

Sarge, I was talking about how well one runs the country, not how he gets elected.
Reagan could talk like Elmer Fudd and with the fall of the Soviet Union and the strong economy, he would still be known as a great president.
 
89Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:23
no reasonable Conservative is going to paint him as an Islamic terrorist

So in your opinion, what's the difference between Boldwin and a reasonable conservative? Or did you miss post 81 in this thread, in which he asked:
National security will sure be an adventure under president Obama and people with the 'wisdom' of Tree. Someone prove to me Obama's second father wasn't the radical moslem I have heard he was. Please.
 
90Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:44
I guess Jag won't answer that one.
 
91Jag
      ID: 5112883
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:45
I couldn't find the post.

I was watching the news the other night with about 100 Obama backers in a room, the moderator asked what specific bill did Obama help pass that you support. No one could name even one bill. Right now, the only thing the majority of the American public knows about this guy is he talks purdy.
 
92sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:46
He's still picking up the keys from his keyboard. I'm pretty sure it exploded the last time he even bothered to type the word "moderate".
 
93Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:46
Talk about cliques. Where are Jag and Boxman on Boldwin's thread topic here, anyway? Afraid to shat where you eat are you?
 
94nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:47


Reagan could talk like Elmer Fudd and with the fall of the Soviet Union (The Pope was more responsible the Reagan with his actions concerning Poland)...

and the strong economy,(By running up the largest deficits in our countries history up to that time)

he would still be known as a great president.


And how can one be a "great" President when one gives missiles to the Ayatollah Khomeini a year after he held 400 of our citizens hostage and marched them blindfolded through Teheran's streets filled with screaming mobs.

He wasn't a great President he was a traitor.



 
95Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:47
I couldn't find the post.

#81 in the linked thread, tough guy. Or have you conveniently forgotten how to count that high?
 
96walk
      ID: 381351512
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:56
Jag, I believe, based on Obama's positions, rationale for those positions, and passion about those positions, he'd be a president that would be aligned to my moves and effective in both leading and working together with folks from both parties, and not be antagonistic. I've often outlined what I believe to be the most important attributes of an effective leader, borrowed from many empirical studies and business studies on executive leadership in the public and private sectors, and I think Obama has more of these important attributes, and a similar political ideology to me (critical factor), than his opponents. Just cos he's a good speaker does not mean he is ONLY a good speaker. I guess McCain therefore is only a good prisoner and Hillary is only a good technocrat.
 
97Jag
      ID: 5112883
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:59
Nerveclinic, nice revisionist history, Marx would be proud.


I have no idea what Baldwin was talking about, but it could make for some interesting reading.

 
98Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:03
Exactly as I thought.
 
99sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:12
revisionist???? NC and I disagree on any nr of things, most notably the true value of Berkley, CA....that said;


Iran-Contra 20 years later

note the entry for 21January1987

The Consrtium points to evidence that Presidents reagan and Bush provided China with military technologies. (And China was/is a major supplier for Iran)

Casper Weinberger calls the Iran-Missile Deal "wrong and criminal"


No Jag, on this one...Nerve is spot-on.
 
100Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:17
Did Jag forget the whole Arms for Hostages deal?

Was the release of the hostages minutes after Reagan's swearing in simply a sign from God?
 
101Razor
      ID: 420241513
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:17
Just cos he's a good speaker does not mean he is ONLY a good speaker.

This seems to be the Right's plan of attack on Obama...that the Left only likes him because he talks nice, but they don't know anything about him. I really wish the Right would stick to pumping up their candidates rather than attempting to trash everyone else's. Frankly, it's not going to work this time.
 
102Jag
      ID: 5112883
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:21
I am not knocking the guy, just stating facts. The vast majority of Americans have no clue what this guy is about.
 
103Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:24
Before I bitchslap you on this, too, can you tell us what you mean by "vast majority?" 70%? 75%?

It is helpful to know how far you'll be knocked down on this one.
 
104Razor
      ID: 420241513
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:25
"The vast majority of Americans have no clue what this guy is about" is a fact? Sounds like an opinion to me.

Like I said, if you don't understand why people are supporting Obama, don't worry about it. My guess is Obama supporters could more correctly guess his stances on abortion, Iraq and healthcare than McCain's supporters could about his. That is not a fact.
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:26
A recent Andrew Sullivan quote:

The cocoon right seems to believe that because they haven't done their homework, Obama hasn't.
 
106Jag
      ID: 5112883
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:27
86.5% All I know is when asked what political achievements the guy had in Congress, no one can answer. You are welcome to Google one if you like.
 
107Razor
      ID: 420241513
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:35
I wonder how many people knew what policies Governor Bush, Governor Clinton, Vice President Bush, Governor Carter, Governor Nixon and Vice President Johnson had enacted before they voted them into office.

It's the platform for the future that's important.
 
108walk
      ID: 381351512
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:39
Fcukin, PD, on a roll, baby! Go Poconos!
 
109Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:39
Actually, Jag, we posted links that both you and Baldwin refused to read. At least Baldwin had the sense to look and refuse to download large pdf files of position papers. What was your excuse?
 
110Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:52
Jag, I believe, based on Obama's positions, rationale for those positions, and passion about those positions, he'd be a president that would be aligned to my moves and effective in both leading and working together with folks from both parties, and not be antagonistic.

Here's a series of questions I'd like Obama supporters to answer.

1) Let's say that the next Congress acts like the last 10 Congresses, and passes a partisan bill, skimming off just enough opposition to get it through (or prevent a veto or filibuster). That clearly would violate the spirit of unity.

Would Obama sign such a bill? Would he issue a veto threat to his own party? How would he get Democrats in Congress to cooperate with Republicans?

2) The executive is always unified, by definition. Congress is where the bitter splits manifest themselves. How would Obama fix Congress?

And if I want Obama to fix Congress, is he better able to fix Congress while being IN Congress or out of it? And since he's from Congress, why isn't it already fixed?

Or should we root for him to be VP so he can preside over the Senate and spread harmony directly?

(bias caveat: my wife is a big fan, and I do at least appreciate his mannerisms)
 
111biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 17:02
All we have to do is sweep all the Republicans out of Congress, and "Ta Da!" Unity. ;)

I don't think anyone can answer those questions without a specific Bill in mind, but I think he would be much more likely than our current president to veto his own party.

I think it's pretty rare for a freshman Senator to have a litany of accomplishments, much less "fix Congress".

I think he will lead by example, and at least create an atmosphere for potential for cooperation. I don't think we can expect much more than that.

I am optimistic about an Barack Presidency mainly for his potential as a stateman, both domestically and internationally. I also think he has the smarts and desire to roll up his sleeves and look at particular issues with enough depth that he can help Congress find a reasonable middle-ground that is good for our nation.

But mainly I am inspired by his ability to get this nation feeling positive about our Republic and our democratic processes. His appeal to national, not personal interest which is being answered in a way not seen in a generation.
 
112Jag
      ID: 5112883
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 17:12
PD, don't come to sudden stop or else Sarge and Walk's heads are going to go half way up your ass.
 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 17:13
Heh.

Unity for Obama is the means, not the ends, Madman.

As to why Congress isn't already fixed, I think Congress has made some strides in the last few years. Sending contempt citations is one. Voting down a FISA with retroactive immunity is another.

As is Pelosi refusing to consider impeachment proceedings against Bush or Cheney.

Congress is defined by its relationship to the President. In that way Obama would not only be better for Congress, but have a better chance of getting an honest assessment of his policy initiatives.
 
114Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 17:26
I also think he has the smarts and desire to roll up his sleeves and look at particular issues with enough depth that he can help Congress find a reasonable middle-ground that is good for our nation.

That sentence cuts to the heart of my concern.

If he's elected, we'll have a significant majority Democratic Congress & a Democratic President. Barack is also proposing fairly run-of-the-mill liberal policy prescriptions.

Exactly why should anyone believe that the result of that will cooperation and moderation? To convince people like me, he's got to articulate exactly how he's going to steer the country to the middle. So far, he's been doing the reverse to the extent he's addressing it at all.

I think PD 113 is right. Unity for him is a means, not an end. In which case, I'm not terribly interested, as you could guess.

Although I do think he'll bring other intangibles to the table, at least.

Probably a bad sign that a McCain thread is talking about Obama. ;)
 
115Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 17:28
A successful Obama presidency will be determined by who he designates as his advisors and cabinet members and how well he interacts with them and responds to their advise and counsel.

The first indication of his saavy will be his pick for VP. If it's a Bill Richardson, Evan Bayh, Jane Harman or Jim Matheson, then that's a good sign. If it's an Al Sharpton, Dennis Kucinich or Barney Frank, then for me it will time to see who the Libertarians candidate is this year.
 
116biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 17:51
He's said he will appoint Republicans to his cabinet.

I find him much more honestly centrist than Hillary "Where the Polling Winds Blow" Clinton or John "I'm only moderate when it suits me" McCain.

In particular, it would have been easy to take the left stance on universal health care, and potentially promise more than he could deliver. He took the more reasonable, centrist, road. I don't agree with him, but I respect him.

He is going against the polls on immigration as well. There I agree with him. Jingoistic race-baiting and scapegoating shouldn't be condoned or pandered to. Here the majority is in the wrong.

I also like that he doesn't first scream "bailout" regarding the mortgage crisis. He will attempt to force those who profited to foot some of the bill in the fix.

I also like the mortgage credit instead of interest deduction idea. He understands the the tax incentives are perverse for homeownership, and that it helps folks much more who already have a home than those struggling to afford their first one.
 
117nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 18:24


Nerveclinic, nice revisionist history

So you are taking the position that he didn't give missiles to Iran after they had held 400 of our citizens hostage for over a year?

I just want to get you on record here Jag?

Oh maybe you "can't remember".

 
118Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 19:53
but you are implying he is something very different than what we already know. - Walk

False. I have no idea what sort of person Obama is and I have yet to meet anyone who can say they do.

Sidenote: I have been accused of being immoderate for asking whether his second father was a radical Moslem. Why is asking about the character of his family out of bounds? I imply nothing. I just think it's one of thousands of logical essential questions anyone aspiring to that level of leadership should be scrutinized for. You think in these times, that a president's stance towards Islamist' version jihadism is an untimely innappropriate question?

 
119Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 19:58
PD

He's your guy. Did you read the Obama's PDF in whole or in part? Did you even go thru the pull down menu at his site and skim thru each one like I did? Why not?
 
120Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 20:05
Madman

In fairness, this thread wouldn't be so Obama friendly if I were a Republican or if I was committed to a Republican victory. You won't meet too many of those so free to concede an Obama presidency, certainly not at this early date.
 
121Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 20:13
Nerveclinic

Realpolitic really isn't your thing.

Reagan's in effect buying a communist free central america at the price of a swap involving 400 missiles aimed at Saddam who had recently attacked a USA warship and featuring a return of financial support for anti-communist forces...well Ollie North wasn't the only one who thot it was a perfectly acceptable deal and not 'treason' as you call it. Now the Dems in congress at that time...fit my definition of anti-american.
 
122Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 20:37
Reagan's in effect buying a communist free central america

I suppose you don't know who the current democratically elected president of Nicaragua is. It appears Reagan's buyout had a pretty lousy return.
 
123Seattle Zen
      ID: 529121611
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 20:46
It's nice to see Madman back.

Post 114:To convince people like me, he's got to articulate exactly how he's going to steer the country to the middle.

I think that Obama's camp would tell him that no matter how much he tried to address "people like you", and I mean this as politely as I can, your camp would not be convinced. Or the types of policies you would favor, things that would make people in your camp satisfied that he will steer the country to the middle, would cause him to loose many, many people in the middle.

You can't convince 'em all. I don't think Obama will be Mr. 51% part two, more like Mr. 60%, which in this day and age is Mr. Landslide.
 
124sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 20:47
Now the Dems in congress at that time...fit my definition of anti-american.

And just when precisely has a Dem (in Congress or not), failed to fit your definition of "anti-american"?
 
125Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 21:38
I could find a few who weren't.
 
126Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 21:48
Claiborne Pell decidedly not among them. Yes I know he is no longer 'serving' if that word ever applied to him for a moment.
 
127Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 23:54
The achilles heel of George Soros' philosophy...
With the demise of communism, the present state of affairs, however imperfect, can be described as a global open society. It is not threatened from the outside, from some totalitarian ideology seeking world supremacy. The threat comes from the inside, from local tyrants seeking to establish internal dominance through external conflicts. It may also come from democratic but sovereign states pursuing their self-interest to the detriment of the common interest. The international open society may be its own worst enemy.
The disingenuous hole in this argument, and as former chairman of the CFR he is well aware, is that Soros' circle of friends fully intend on setting up a world government. He'll even make veiled admission of this. A world dictatorship no matter how well intentioned at the start will be unaccountable to anyone and the power that corupts would be unchecked and overwhelming. The world is indeed threatened by a totalitarian ideology and it is Soros' vision.
 
128Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 23:55
Words in Blockquote were those of George Soros.
 
129Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 13:40
BR 116 -- Re: republicans in his cabinet ... I didn't know he said that. Interesting.

One report ... "Barack Obama has often said he'd consider putting Republicans in his cabinet and even bandied about names like Sens. Dick Lugar and Chuck Hagel. He's a added a new name to the list of possible Republicans cabinet members - Arnold Schwarzenegger."

That does help somewhat. Keep the ideas flowing.
 
130Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 13:55
SZ 123 -- Perhaps. I would vote for a Dem for President if I were convinced that the policy prescriptions of Clinton's second term would happen.

I'd even throw in the Clinton tax rates of the first term, so long as they chopped into Ag. spending and the like, correspondingly (not likely to happen), the AMT was put on a stable footing, the "death" tax was compromised on, and there was a commitment to the stable funding of our long-term entitlements.

What I don't want is an increase in our taxes that goes to the creation of any large, new government programs, or expansions of existing ones. I also don't want a significant increase in federal government regulation in most areas.

Yeah, you're probably right. I'm too far out there for a Dem like Obama.
 
131Perm Dude
      ID: 2138188
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 14:01
An overview of his fiscal plan (the "more details" pdf is just the same page--in pdf!

The PAYGO system is a key, IMO.
 
132nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 14:38



Jag I am not knocking the guy, just stating facts. The vast majority of Americans have no clue what this guy is about.

That wouldn't be shocking, the vast majority of Americans can't name the current Secretary of State, why would they know anything about someone who is only running for office?

For the most part, the American people just "size up a man" running for President (ah woman too Hillary)

They stand back and look him/her in the eye and see how he fits.

Yeah they might know a issue or two, they might know his religion or where he stands on abortion, for the most part though they just want to hear him/her talk, see how he feels, and vote with their gut.

That's why Kennedy won, that's why Reagan won, that's why Clinton won... (The two Bushes won because of family connections 8-} )

Really a large number of the American people don't care as much about the issues as they do about the man/woman.

Oh they love to vote for a winner too, that's why once someone wins a few primaries the band wagon gets crowded.

So are there large numbers of supporters who, like Baldwin, can't be bothered to skim his 60 page position paper?...undoubtedly.

They know what Bush sounds like though, they know how Bush sounds to the world, has sounded to the world the last 8 years.

They know we have a black eye right now. They see their rights being taken away in the name of fighting terrorism. They know that the world is scratching their head that a country that has stood for freedom and hope is losing it's shine...

So yeah they hear Obama, they like the way he feels, they like the lofty vision and speechs. Whether the act is real or not, his supporters have a glimmer of hope that we still haven't lost what America is supposed to stand for, that it's not too late, and that Obama is the movement to reverse this train wreck.

They think he would be a good ambassador for us to start the healing process with the large portions of the world who are shaking their head about the last 8 years.

Begin to Reverse the Damage.

They think he would be someone who could actually make us look sympathetic against the likes of Putin.

So if you take the concepts articulated above, it starts to make sense that they don't know every one of his positions...the American people (Large percentage anyway) don't really get too far into nuts an bolts.

In any case it's just the Dem primaries, not the general election yet. He hasn't won yet.

The Republican war machine will come out swinging. The frightened little whispers about his weird soundin' name that the Baldwin types will start murmuring about will take on a resonance...this is America after all.

It's not over yet.

The above is not an endorsement of Obama, just an opinion about some of what is driving the movement at the moment, and the reason that charges like Jag's and Baldwin's that his supporters "don't know what he stands for" doesn't really matter.

 
133nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 15:25

Reagan's in effect buying a communist free central america at the price of a swap involving 400 missiles aimed at Saddam who had recently attacked a USA warship and featuring a return of financial support for anti-communist forces...well Ollie North wasn't the only one who thot it was a perfectly acceptable deal and not 'treason' as you call it. Now the Dems in congress at that time...fit my definition of anti-american.

I guess you only believe in conspiracy theory when your boyfriend isn't involved?

 
134nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 16:38


Reagan's in effect buying a communist free Central America at the price of a swap involving 400 missiles

AHH but he didn't, the Sandinistas won.

So I want to make sure YOU are on record Baldy. You are OK with the fact that Ronnie gave 400 missiles to an 1slamy Fascist who had held 400 of our citizens hostage for over a year.

You are fine with that?

That's a yes or no question we don't need any embellishment, the forum members who have followed history know the details.

What ever the justification (Alzheimer's or anti communist or otherwise)

Your OK with that?

at the price of a swap involving 400 missiles

Yeah just 400 missiles, just thousands of dead humans, ah the moral supremacy of the Christian right.

This was the same argument made about Viet Nam wasn't it? (We have to stop the commies and protect the fascist banana republic allies)

In both cases we lost, the Sandinistas won, the Contras ran with their tails between their legs.

Oh look, the world is still here and the Sandinistas haven't invaded America yet (neither have the Vietnamese run amok in SE Asia). Or were they both behind 9/11 too?

You only like conspiracy theories when they fit your right wing Christian thesis...you aren't really a conspiracy theorist, unless the results are convenient.

Your a Republican.


 
135Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 01:07
When you run out of bullets because your 'allies' enemies cut off the supply, I don't think it counts as cowardice to withdraw.

Given that communism killed off hundreds of millions of their own people, yes I can overlook the fate of 50 diplomats in the process of preventing more of that. Wait, the diplomats were freed in the process.

If you are asking me to take sides between the Komeini and Saddam I have to say I really didn't care.

The deal did not bother me.

No.
 
136nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 05:19


The deal did not bother me.

Of course not...Ronnie boy did it. Your golden boy.

If Clinton or carter did it you would be screaming treason and that my friend is a FACT.

FACT.
 
137Perm Dude
      ID: 2138188
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 08:44
Fact.

Looks at his braying over Carter & South Korea--an accord which actually worked.
 
138Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 22:25
Nerve

Ridiculous to use Carter as you counterexample. The man was a naive fool in the cold war arena, a fact which even he was forced to admit in hindsight.

PD

I have no idea what S. Korea accord you could be speaking of.
 
139nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 04:40

That really wasn't my point Baldwin.

My point was it's OK to give missile to an 1slammo Facista since it was Reagan that did it. Given the exact same circumstances, if Clinton had been the one, you would be calling for his impeachment.
 
140Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 05:45
Equally hard to imagine Clinton winning the cold war for us or upholding the Monroe Doctrine.
 
141sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 09:13
just cant answer a direct question of that nature, with a direct response can you?

and re PDs comment Carter-Korea....pretty sure you are aware he meant the accord with NK. Couldnt answer that either huh? Had to take the "cheap shot" instead?
 
142Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 11:59
I'm the guy they allegedly have to spoon feed but now I gotta mindread and answer those questions chop chop, right away sir.
 
143sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 12:02
Mindread? Your own mind? Hardly a difficult task Boldy, and one NC and PD have already done for you. All you had to do, was acknowledge the truth of their contention(s).
 
144Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 12:39
No one brings up the 'Hussein' issue. Odd.

Has anyone ever apologized to Bush for abusing his middle initial?
 
145Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 12:55
the 'Hussein' issue

Please, spell it out for me. What exactly is the Hussein issue? Dumb it down as much as possible.
 
146Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:02
McCain apologizing for someone sharing time on his podium actually using Obama's full name, oh the horror!
 
147biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:12
I think he was apologizing more for Cunningham calling Obama a hack, and implying he was corrupt.
 
148Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:17
Coulter on Soros and McCain.
 
149Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:32
You think referring to him as Barack Hussein Obama is entirely innocent, without any inferred reference or suggested accusations?

You think Cunningham just happened to throw Obama's middle name in there in the same casual, without an afterthought way that some people refer to the President as George W. Bush as easily as they refer to him without his middle initial?

In a speech where he Cunningham said Obama was going to "saddle up next to Hezbollah."?
 
150Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:34
I think most posters on this forum think that their pronunciation of Bush's middle initial makes Bush a dumb uneducated redneck.
 
151biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:40
Well, Molly Ivins coined the term back in the 90's. It caught on, not because she repeated it imho, but because it fit. I don't think Bush minded so much as he likes to think of himself as a good ol' boy from Texas rippin' out scrub on the weekends.



 
152Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:44
I think most posters on this forum think that their pronunciation of Bush's middle initial makes Bush a dumb uneducated redneck.

well, that is how *HE* pronounces it. and never mind the fact that there were a million pro-GW bumper stickers that were simply "W".

 
153Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:48
You think referring to him as Barack Hussein Obama is entirely innocent, without any inferred reference or suggested accusations?

Now we can't call The Great Leader by his birth name? No wonder I call him The Great Leader.
 
154biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:52
This is turning into "How disingenuous can Conservatives be as to the obvious ulterior motive of using Obama's middle name in a time where there is still a large, ignorant minority who think we are in a holy war with all A-rabs and muslims" thread.

I can just picture Boxman tittering behind a partially covered mouth every time he says Hussein.
 
155Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:55
Baldwin
There are several differences. The first is that I've never heard a political opponent refer so suggestively to Bush as 'Dubya'. Of course anyone who took exception to a political opponent so referring to President Bush would be right to do so.

The second is that Bush is casually known by friends as Dubya. It is a well known term of endearment for him.

The third is that posters on this forum are not Bush's political opponents, not in the sense of someone who delivers an opening speech at a John McCain rally. For example, while I consider your pondering the National security implications of President Obama having an "islamist" stepfather to be kneejerk partisan, ignorant and bigoted, it isn't quite the same as if it came from someone speaking for Clinton or McCain.


Boxman
Now we can't call The Great Leader by his birth name?
Who said that? You are free to call him whatever you want. You're also free to continue believing you are mocking anyone other than yourself.

In fact, by all means, I urge you to continue posting every clever little quip that pops into your head. You are the perfect representative for the political right in an election year.
 
156Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 14:03
if all people like Boxman and Baldwin have to be critical of in Obama is his middle name, then we're in pretty good shape.

then again, actually researching his stance on various issues was a bit overwhelming for them, so they had to find something to attack...
 
157Tree
      ID: 401242820
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 23:29
Seems that the RNC is taking a stance on the use of Obama's middle name..

 
158Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 06:30
The Great Leader's middle name cannot be spoken anymore and the picture of him in Kenya is now out of bounds.

Wow, I thought we'd have to wait for him to get into office first before we start with the revisionist history, but let the party start early.

I love this quote, "The left always finds something to pick at other than to describe the issues; we're not surprised at all."

So true. Let's all succumb to the bliss of liberal outrage by calling a man his actual name.
 
159Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 06:58
Interesting to see such a stalwart Republican voter (albeit one with no other known principles) rail against liberal outrage at the RNC, but there you have it. For some, political disingenuousness bridges even partisan bounds. Curious, though we're all entitled to our priorities.


Back on topic (or something closer to the topic, anyway) is the pass the media has so far given McCain for his relationship with Christian Zionist Pastor John Hagee, who's organization lobbies congress for expansion of Israeli territory and for an unprovoked unlateral attack on Iran - in the name of God and for the purpose of bringing the end of times.


As TPM points out, Obama has taken considerable heat for an unsolicited endorsement he received from Louis Farrakhan. He's repeatedly stated that he did not seeks that endorsement and has repeatedly publicly denounced (and then rejected - just in case 'denounce' and 'reject' don't mean the same thing) Farrakhan.

Meanwhile, McCain finds himself standing on a stage with Hagee with no public backlash at all. You'd think MSM would have been all over this if they're really so rabidly liberal.
 
160Tree
      ID: 12158295
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 07:02
The Great Leader's middle name cannot be spoken anymore and the picture of him in Kenya is now out of bounds.

Wow, I thought we'd have to wait for him to get into office first before we start with the revisionist history, but let the party start early.


no one's revising anything, but the RNC is intelligent enough to see using such things in an attacking manner could very well backfire, and paint the party in a very unflattering light with large blocks of voters.

of course, rank-and-file posters on this board aren't intelligent enough to see that, and since they have nothing else to attack because they won't read the stances on the issues, they'll continue to hammer it home, perhaps in an affort to look even more foolhardy?
 
161Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 07:15
Tree
no one's revising anything
It struck me as well that Boxman apparently doesn't understand the concept of 'revisionist history' but then it's always hard to pick out genuine ignorance in someone who is nipple deep in his own disingenuousnes. Who knows which it is.

rank-and-file posters on this board aren't intelligent enough to see that
Shhhhh! Let them talk. If they choose the gambit of shamelessly appealing directly to those who are ignorant enough to be turned from a candidate because of his given middle name (despite the dissuasive efforts of party leaders who know that such rhetoric casts them in a very ugly light) let them talk all they want. Personally, I have much more faith in the intelligence and acumen of average Americans than they do.
 
162Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 09:29
Revisionist history?

That would be the lie that Obama attended a madrassa as a child and that his stepfather was a radical Muslim. The reason for prominently using Obama's middle name is to perpetrate those lies.

I applaud McCain and the RNC for denouncing such tactics. Those who fashion themselves as real conservatives and champion such irrelevance shouldn't be suprised at their further marginalization.
Moving even further into irrelevance, Cunningham provided us with this gem.

Cunningham said McCain "embarrassed himself," and then made up a name of his own for the Arizona senator, "John Juan Pablo McCain,"

And these so-called conservatives have the audacity to claim that they are in line with America's values. Cunningham is the one who embarrassed himself, as well as Boxman.