Forum: pol
Page 3092
Subject: The Real John McCain


  Posted by: Pancho Villa - [495272016] Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 01:04

While the focus recently has been to bloody Obama by any means necessary, and Hillary has been the controversial subject of debate for almost two decades, it seems only fair to start examining John McCain in earnest, good and bad.

I think it's fair to say Republicans view McCain's strengths as national security and pro-life positions, as well as embracing at least some modicum of economic conservatism.

From a Democratic standpoint, McCain's biggest weakness is his insistence on continuing the Bush administration's failed policies in Iraq.

Evidence of this position from a scathing op/ed by

Frank Rich.

As for Basra, Mr. McCain told Joe Klein of Time in January that it was “not a problem.” He told John King of CNN while in Baghdad last month that Mr. Sadr’s “influence has been on the wane for a long time.” When the battle ended last week, Mr. McCain said: “Apparently it was Sadr who asked for the cease-fire, declared a cease-fire. It wasn’t Maliki. Very rarely do I see the winning side declare a cease-fire.” At least the last of those sentences was accurate. It was indeed the losing side — Maliki’s — that pleaded for the cease-fire.

Perhaps all these mistaken judgments can be attributed to the fog of war. But Mr. McCain’s bigger strategic picture, immutable no matter what happens on the ground, is foggier still. Like Mr. Bush, he keeps selling Iraq as the central front in the war on Al Qaeda. But Al Qaeda was not even a participant in the Basra battle, which was an eruption of a Shiite-vs.-Shiite civil war. (Al Qaeda is busy enough in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the actual central front in the war on terror.)

Mr. McCain is also fond of portraying Mr. Maliki’s “democracy” in Iraq as an essential bulwark against Iran; his surrogate Lindsey Graham habitually refers to Mr. Sadr’s Mahdi Army as “Iranian-backed militias.” But the political coalition and militia propping up Mr. Maliki are even closer to Iran than the Sadrists. McClatchy Newspapers reported last week that the Maliki-Sadr cease-fire was not only brokered in Iran but by a general whose name is on the Treasury Department’s terrorist list: the commander of the Quds force of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard.

So this is where this latest defining moment in Iraq leaves us: with victories for Iran and Mr. Sadr, and with Iraqi forces that still can’t stand up (training cost to American taxpayers so far: $22 billion) so we can stand down. The Baghdad Green Zone, pummeled with lethal mortar fire, proved vulnerable once again. Basra remains so perilous that Britain has had to suddenly halt its planned troop withdrawals. Tony Blair had ordered the drawdown a year ago, after declaring that “the next chapter in Basra’s history will be written by the Iraqis.”

The surge is a success in exactly one way: American forces, by putting their lives on the line and benefiting from a now-defunct Sadr cease-fire, have reduced violence in Baghdad (though only to early 2005 levels). But as the Middle East scholar Juan Cole has written, “the ‘surge’ was never meant to be the objective but rather the means.”

None of the objectives have been met. Remember that “return on success” — as in returning troops — that Mr. Bush promised in January’s State of the Union? We will end 2008 with more Americans in Iraq than the 132,000 at the time the surge began. Even Gen. David Petraeus said last month that there has not been “sufficient progress” on the other most important objective, Iraqi political reconciliation. Mr. Maliki’s move against Mr. Sadr in Basra, done without even consulting Iraq’s “democratically elected” Parliament, was an attempt to take out his opponent by force rather than wait for the October provincial elections.


There's been lots of talk about how naive Obama is concerning world affairs. However, when attempting to discern McCain's quote:

Mr. Sadr’s “influence has been on the wane for a long time.”

I have to wonder WTF he's talking about. Sadr City alone has 2.5 million residents, 10% of Iraq's entire population. Sadrists are likely a majority of the population in Basra, Najaf, Nasariya and a host of other cities in the Shiite south. It's probably not a stretch to say that Sadrists comprise a full 15-20% of the entire Iraqi population, roughly equal to the Sunni Arab and Kurdish populations.

If there's any evidence of Sadr's influence waning, it is with the most radical contingencies of Sadrists who refused to abide by the cease-fire he called for in August.

One has to wonder if this country is prepared to endure four more years of failed policies in Iraq by a leader who apparently refuses to make an honest assessment of the situation.



 
1Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 01:14
Follow up by Juan Cole

McCain sometimes says we are fighting al-Qaeda in Iraq, and sometimes says we are fighting Iran in Iraq. Neither is in the least like North Korea. The Korea analogy is not really an analogy, since we are not fighting to support one half of a country against the other half, nor are we aiming at a successful partition of Iraq that leaves the enemy in control of half the country!

In fact, McCain warns that not pursuing complete military victory would result in "al-Qaeda" taking over Sunni Arab provinces of Iraq (presumably al-Anbar, Salahuddin, Ninevah and Diyala). But the Shiites now control Diyala even though it has a Sunni majority, and the strongest Iraqi military force in Ninevah/ Mosul is the Kurdish peshmerga. The Dulaim tribe in al-Anbar has turned against the Qutbists (which McCain incorrectly calls 'al-Qaeda'-- they don't take orders from Usama Bin Laden), and much weakened them.

So, there is no actual prospect of the Sunni radicals taking over Sunni Iraq. A majority of Iraqi Sunnis still tell pollsters that they are secular people who want a separation of religion and state, which is what you would expect in an ex-Baath population.

There is therefore no analogy to Korea. Who plays the North Koreans here? Is it our Shiite allies, who are allied to Iran? Is it the Sunni Arab Iraqis, whom the Shiites have ethnically cleansed from Baghdad under the nose of the US military?



 
2Wilmer McLean
      ID: 9316522
      Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 01:26
From Karl Malden (Mr. RIch)

Mr. McCain’s doomed promise of military “victory” in Iraq is akin to Wile E. Coyote’s perpetual pursuit of the Road Runner, ...




"Now what?"
 
3Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 01:47
Has it dawned on anyone the economic repercussions if we were to leave Iraq? There could be a world-wide recession.
 
4Baldwin
      ID: 1535672
      Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 05:26
Thot provoking post Wilmer.

How do you prevent al qeada [and it's shiite counterpart] from radicalizing and mobilizing what is possibly the world's largest religion into the world war of their dreams?

Chasing it? Ignoring it? Send in interpol? Ok, that last one was a joke...no wait that was John Kerry's plan. I guess Obama's is plan B and McCain is closer to plan A.

If anyone has a different option it hasn't made it into the mainstream discussion.

Of course I will tell you God's Kingdom is the solution and globalists will tell you their anti-christ vision is the answer but those POV aren't being discussed in the mainstream.
 
5walk
      ID: 134757
      Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 06:09
Jag. I thought there is a world wide rece ission now? Right now, financially, Iraq is a money pit. In terms of fighting, it seems like a lose-lose scenario...damned if you stay and damned if you leave. Since both option stink, we might as well leave. We are living in a bubble with the Iraq occupation, in terms of death, wounded and $, and that bubble is going to burst soon.
 
6Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 06:20
There's a world wide recession now? What rock am I living under? How long have I been out?

We don't even have a recession HERE yet. Two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth. Everyone seeeeeems to be "forgetting" that unless of course they have their election on the brain.
 
7Perm Dude
      ID: 4032378
      Mon, Apr 07, 2008, 11:01
Recessions are most often something which we pinpoint when we are past it (or almost through it). That's because of the lag of data. Nevertheless, Greenspan, in September 2007 gave the odds at less than 50/50 for a recession. In December 2007 said the odds were growing, and a few days ago said the odds were greater than 50%. In the same interview Greenspan endorsed John McCain, so maybe he did, indeed, have election on the brain.
 
8walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Apr 28, 2008, 16:03
Sullivan: When McCain was McCain

Very good one.
 
9Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 03:40
It is just so hard for me to dislike the hyper-anti-religion, old trotskyite cukoo-egg in the Republican basket, Christopher Hitchens. If he only weren't so clever.

Going on about whether McCain has an anger management problem that need concern voters.

Interesting moment caught on YouTube.
 
10Tree
      ID: 0342294
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 06:45
is that youtube clip supposed to be an example of anger management issues, or just something a bit fun to check out?
 
11walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 09:57
Meet John 'Dubya' McCain
 
12walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 11:07
McCain's Comments about Staying in Iraq

I feel like more digging is warranted, but this article is intriguing, and could pose some interesting challenges for McCain in the election.
 
13Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 11:43
Tree #10

We'll see when that video goes viral because I don't see it staying in the dark all campaign. I'll be interested in the reactions here to it.
 
14Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 12:12
The only thing that struck me from that clip is that McCain needs a better tailor. That suit was terribly ill-fitting. He looked like a slob or a Public Defender.

I can't believe that anyone aside from a few humorless goofs would take the "little jerk" comment seriously.
 
15walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 12:14
McCain's Healthcare Fix
 
16Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Apr 29, 2008, 16:50
More on McCare.

I feel robbed. I was going to write up my healthcare proposals over the course of May-June. I really didn't think he'd actually propose one of my main ideas.

So I'll explain in a different way. In Arkansas, everyone is guaranteed coverage, as I understand it. We still have 20%ish uninsured. That's primarily due to cost problems, which has undermined almost all risk pools to date. Other than the usual tax-spend problems, I don't and haven't understood what the problem would be with reducing the cost of the guaranteed coverage through direct government payment. Right now, risk-pool insurance is wildly unpopular; it costs at least 25% MORE than any comparable privately offered plan (b/c of anti-selection). The sign-up rate is also terrible because no one is incented to get people to acquire it.

Dunno. At any rate, McCain's trying to make the old state-reinsurance pool idea work, which is one of the key linchpins that I would have proposed. Scary. This idea *does* have a track record of failure, but I think that's been because of crappy implementation and lack of federal commitment, not because of a conceptual failure.

I will also add that the feds could extend HIPPA to allow for individual plans to meet "creditable coverage" restrictions that prevent pre-existing exclusions. With that addition, you have a much more workable version of Obama's care, since you retain the incentive for unemployed blokes to acquire care initially. In fact, you may not even need the state-reinsurance pool after a multi-year transition period ... as long as there is also a way to subsidize cost for poorer families.
 
17J-Bar
      ID: 153192922
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 00:26
so Tree i guess it is ok to use middle names if they are made up but not if they are on the birth certificate. john dubya mccain, john bush iii mccain, john more bush mccain, john 4more years of bush mccain but please don't utter the name hussein.
 
18Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 04:59
That's the advantage of historically being the party of outrage. They are automatically gonna be outraged at the drop of a hat so you don't, and especially MCain doesn't dare drop a hat or allow anyone on his side to drop a hat.

The other side being the 'party of hate'. Go figure. The advantage of living in a 'one party media state'.
 
19Tree
      ID: 21344304
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 06:50
We'll see when that video goes viral because I don't see it staying in the dark all campaign. I'll be interested in the reactions here to it.

well, i'm asking your opinion. to YOU, is that an example of anger management issues?

to me, it was no different that when my grandfather would tug on my long hair a few years back and say "you need to cut that off. you look like a biker!"

The only thing that struck me from that clip is that McCain needs a better tailor. That suit was terribly ill-fitting.

haha! that's EXACTLY what i thought!



letting the days go by....

so Tree i guess it is ok to use middle names if they are made up but not if they are on the birth certificate.

am i missing something?
 
20Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 07:02
My take on the 'you jerk' line:

Yes, I think it adds weight to the rumors of his bad temper and anecdotes of his grabbing collegues by the tie [turning it into a leash] to make a point, throwing tantrums in the legislative chamber, etc.

If this was a one time exception like Lee Elia's Cub manager tirade and it wasn't characteristic of him I'd give him a pass on it. It's not that it is in itself unforgivably egregious.
 
21Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 07:07
How Paul Konerko gets fired up for a game.

Bleeped

uncensored [and uber-blue]
 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 5322308
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 18:22
What McCain doesn't say about his health care plan

Since most people in the US get their health care paid through employer plans (or a family member's plan) I just can't see this being anything other than a non-starter.
 
23Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 18:50
PD -- agreed. Whether for good or ill, employer-based tax advantages are virtually sacrosanct. Essentially, to be clear, he's talking about giving everyone the same $5k deduction. Right now, most people effectively get much more than that (with the amount varying by region and contract type).

What's also confusing is how the value of your healthcare benefit would be taxed under his plan. Currently, most groups have level premium plans, with cross-subsidization of workers across contract types (individual v. employee-spouse v. family coverages). It's a real nightmare to figure out what the value of *your* benefit is, specifically. The system isn't designed to do that (nor do I see a need to waste your time doing that, to be frank).

This stems from the Republican approach to equalize the playing field across purchase types. But that's moving in a direction that, to be frank, isn't popular. We know it isn't popular because it's not what the market is buying (despite the many inefficiencies in the healthcare financing market, it's clear from my conversations with marketing folks that slimmer-benefit, true insurance plans just aren't what people want ... at least not until costs increase *dramatically* more than where they are today).

The Republicans have a good theory here, but they are taking it way out of proportion, unfortunately.

Lastly, in terms of overall healthcare financing admin expense ratios, this plan would tend to *increase* administration because it steers people from relatively efficient enrollment mechanisms through an employer's HR system into a person-to-person contact via an individual plan. Much more costly to enroll and admin an individual by individual plan. That's one reason why employer group insurance has thrived for all these years. Something else the right tends to miss when launching attacks on it. A typical admin rate on an individual plan could be as high as 20%, whereas large group coverages will have admin rates as low as 6-7%, depending (that's the cost of *everything* aside from the actual payments to docs/facilities/chiropractors/actupuncturists/etc.).
 
24biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 19:05
Interesting.

I recently moved from a traditional PPO to a slimmer service with a high deductible and significantly lower monthly costs, and I really like it.

My sister did too in a more extreme manner, with a huge deductible where it's almost just a catastrophic policy.

It takes some getting used to, paying all these costs out of pocket, but I think I'm saving a lot of money, even with a boy with chronic ear infections.

Theoretically it should help lower costs as well, but not for us. My wife won't skimp on docs for the boy.

I'm like: "don't you look at and diagnose ear-infections every day and have all the equipment right there?"

Her: "Yeah, but the boy's going in."

For a while at this point, I began screaming "Doctors kill! Doctors kill!", and even showed her the data on nosocomial infections, but interestingly that turns out to be counterproductive. For a lot of things. ;)
 
25Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 19:19
I began screaming "Doctors kill! Doctors kill!", and even showed her the data on nosocomial infections, but interestingly that turns out to be counterproductive. For a lot of things. ;)

Before anyone goes to the doctor -- or especially the hospital -- they should be legally required to listen to you screaming "Doctors kill!" over and over.

But, strangely, no matter how much you do this, when people get sick, they become irrational. Not that I would ever, ever, ever accuse my wife of that again ... and what's really amazing, is that she'll scream that back at me in ordinary times ... dunno.

Have you read Brownlee's Overtreated? Nothing too new for policy wonks, but well written, I think.
 
26Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 19:25
Hilarious
 
27biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 19:37
Haven't read it. I'll have to look it up. Casually leave it on my wife's bedside table. ;)
 
28Perm Dude
      ID: 3943117
      Thu, May 01, 2008, 22:27
FactCheck updated their report linked to in #22:

Correction, May 1: Our story originally said that under McCain’s plan, employers would no longer be able to deduct as a business expense the cost of providing health insurance for their workers. That’s not correct. We initially misunderstood this point from the campaign.
 
29Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 09:36
PD, thanks for the update. Not much from his website to make that understandable, nor does the "corrected" factcheck.org help me much. MSNBC story on the corrected view of the plan.

The main point left unaddressed by this correction is the cost.

To sum up my current thinking ...
(a) my previous post was wrong about this being a deduction; it's a $5k credit. That means it covers up to about $15k of health insurance expense.

(b) I still don't know how you add up an individual employee's health insurance cost. Looks like this will be another reporting requirement added to health insurance companies, and there will be a demand for quite a bit of customization on this. Confusing.

(c) Given that this is a credit and not a deduction, and given that the employer tax break is remaining in place, where is the money going to come for this? There simply aren't that many people getting more than $15k in healthcare benefits today (the amount which would gradually add back some revenue). Sounds like another large tax reduction.

Not that I'm opposed to such a thing, mind you, but we do have a deficit the last time I looked. Maybe it's shrunk over the past year or so ...
 
30Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 09:39
McCain says he'd veto Ag subsidies ... he said this in Polk Co., IA. Gotta love it.

It's also why Obama will win IA, hands down if he's the nominee. No polling necessary, I guarantee it.
 
31walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 10:46
McCain's Wright

This is very hypocritcal of me, but I must do this cos of how fcuked up this is. Wright's a narcissistic guy, messes up Obama, the media spotlights it for weeks, and now there's this...which I don't think the MSM will spotlight, and I'd prefer they don't (unless McCain chooses to highlight Wright down the road). There's radical views and weirdos all over, aligned to all of these folks. I'd like to think these comments are not representative of everything Hagee or others like him aligned to McCain believe in, and I have not done the research to determine this, but this is the equivalent, to a blogging degree (since it's not on Fox, or MSNBC, or CNN, etc.). Messed up.
 
32Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 11:00
and now there's this...

It's not on the news now, because it was on the news, broadly, when it was actually news, a couple of months ago.

Calling Hagee "McCain's spiritual advisor" and trying to equate his relationship with that of Wright's is beyond the pale - but, that was all discussed on these boards and in the MSM months ago.

Nice of you to dredge it up again, walk, since you prefer that it not be brought up at all, and all that..
 
33walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 11:22
Yeah, I know, MBJ, but I guess my point is not to harp on McCain-Hagee, cos I really don't care, but to make a point that none of this chit should matter, unless one truly believes that such associations truly reflect on the leader's values and capabilities. I believe there's a bit of a double-standard in the attention given to these two associations, although recognize that Obama-Wright were a closer duo than McCain-Hagee. I also posted it cos it seems that if 300 posts are made about Obama-Wright, one should not ignore that such ridiculously trivial associations exist everywhere, for all of the candidates.
 
34Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 11:35
So just how much of an influence was Hagee? I missed this. If McCain actually has been regularly taught by that guy then it would merit discussion in the campaign.
 
35Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 11:47
walk -- I'll grant that Hagee and others like him are reasonably representative of them. McCain's camp didn't do their homework on that endorsement. Within days of the endorsement, he came out against the statements and has called his endeavor to seek that endorsement a mistake (4/20 "This week" ... so the MSM has definitely covered it). McCain hasn't dealt with it as well as many would like, but he has dealt with it. Not sure why it is terribly important, to be honest.

There really isn't any comparison to the relationship of the candidates to Hagee and Wright. Remember that Obama sought Wright out, aligned with him for 20 years, called him non-controversial repeatedly, used him as his #1 reference for reverends who endorse him (on his website, which has now been removed), made a public speech in Philly defending his character, claimed that Obama had superior knowledge about Wright's beliefs and then had that superior knowledge evaporate before our eyes, etc.

Wright speaks to the type of people Obama is comfortable with and people he can trust, pre-candidacy. This, in turn, reflects the type of people Obama would presumably turn to as advisors and turn to fill out their administration. A reasonable way to choose a Presidential candidate is to ignore the candidate himself and instead focus on the people the candidate is close to and trusts. Some have argued that this approach yields superior predictive ability, since the main way a President can influence government is through the people he picks to run the government. Wright definitely fits into this category, at least through Monday. And this is a category of people that speaks to the fundamental pre-candidate character, so it's difficult for a candidate to credibly drop people from this group without raising additional concerns.

Hagee, instead, speaks to the type of people supporting a candidate. This, obviously, is a much, much broader swath of individuals, many of which may disagree vehemently with the candidate himself, but who, for whatever reason, choose to endorse, support or align. It's important to note these individuals as reflective of the broader political headwinds candidates may face after elected (who they owe favors to, etc.) But the degree of association is markedly less.

Unfortunately, the MSM have indeed executed a double-standard against McCain by ignoring Obama's troubled endorsers, despite Obama proudly displaying their support. How much do you know about Hagee? How much do you know about Pfleger? If you know about the first and don't know about the second, you've got a double-standard.

And neither bears much relationship to Obama-Wright. For example, we know that Wright's endorsement was removed from the Obama website months ago. But we don't know if that was because Wright removed his endorsement, or because Obama chose to conceal it. My point being that we don't even know if Wright fits into the Hagee-category I outlined above. But we do know that he fits into the first category of being a pre-candidate confidant, and that's why he's of interest.
 
36Perm Dude
      ID: 3943117
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 11:51
We don't know that Obama sought Wright out. Only that he sought the church. One might try to make the case that there is little difference between the two (all the while incrementally getting away from the point), but a church is much more than the pastor.

And while he might be of interest tp you for the (essentially) historical reasons you give, Madman, he's not of interest to FOX News, The Corner, Rush, or any of those people for those reasons. He's of interest because he apparently hates America, and apparently (to them) so does Barack Obama.
 
37walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 12:28
What PD said in #36, and the view that both associations are dumb, but that the Obama-Wright has easily been more involved but also received way more unwarranted media attention and fear. Do ya really think this relationship bears on Obama's character? Do you really think Obama stands for the things Wright has said? Do you really think McCain stands for the things Hagee has said. It does not feel as good when it's the other candidate who is guilty by association. It's all bull.
 
38Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 14:04
PD/walk -- Rev. Wright was one of Obama's "sounding boards" (his words, not mine). He was "family". He was the first person thanked in Obama's US Senate victory speech. He was more than just his "moral compass". In a Wright speech excoriating the white-man's greed, Obama found Jesus. Wright was "not particularly controversial." Now, of course, we know that TUCC was known dually for community activism and radical theology. Some have theorized (link from PD in the Real Obama thread) that it was Wright's intellect that Obama found attractive. He toted Wright's sermon tapes around with him. Obama asked him to be the minister at his marriage. To baptize his two children. Etc., Etc.

Pardon me, but there seems to be quite a bit of audacity in the hope that Obama knew Wright only coincidentally because he loved TUCC.

Walk 37 -- you must have missed my 35. If you want to start going down the road of doing guilt-by-association, we can go down that road. Don't think you'll like it. I haven't gone down that road at all, other than the vaguest references.

I don't know what Obama believes. And that's the whole point. More critically, I don't know what sort of people Obama chooses to be around and trusts. Wright, until this week, was clearly one of those people. He's a very smart man who chooses his friends very wisely, as he himself says. Those are the people that will define an Obama administration.

Don't see any scenario under which a Hagee will play any significant role in a McCain administration.
 
39Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 56118297
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 14:20
Madman 35

Wright speaks to the type of people Obama is comfortable with and people he can trust, pre-candidacy. This, in turn, reflects the type of people Obama would presumably turn to as advisors and turn to fill out their administration.

Really? The type of people Obama is comfortable with? As opposed to everyone else - with whom Obama is not comfortable?

Can you look at Obama's campaign and honestly claim he has filled out key positions with people who are like Rev. Wright? Contrary to what the best efforts of rightist news would have you (and does have most of this forum) believing, Wright, himself, did not even hold a position in the Obama campaign.
 
40Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 14:27
Really? The type of people Obama is comfortable with? As opposed to everyone else - with whom Obama is not comfortable? Yes, really. Presidents tend to appoint people who are either directly or indirectly known. There's a greater trust and knowledge with such people. Obama, believe it or, doesn't really know most of us very well.

Obama's campaign staff isn't a good reflection of who he will choose to lead key departments or agencies. Campaign staffers become white house staff and the like. Someone like Wright could have otherwise stepped in as a liason for the faith-based initiatives his WH could have done. More likely, Obama would have drawn on Wright's connections for names for qualified individuals to fill out certain Justice Department roles, EEOC positions, etc.
 
41Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 14:45
More likely, Obama would have drawn on Wright's connections for names for qualified individuals to fill out certain Justice Department roles, EEOC positions, etc.

That's preposterous, out and out preposterous. Do you think that ANY President-elect has asked his pastor/priest/minister for names for civil service appointments? How about GW, the self-proclaimed most religious President of recent memory? Did he ask his personal pastor for suggestions? No, he simply relied upon Cheney and his father's friends.
 
42Perm Dude
      ID: 3943117
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 14:51
I don't know what sort of people Obama chooses to be around and trusts

You've really worked yourself into non-thinking here, haven't you? It's like repeating the word "blue" over and over again--pretty soon it loses its meaning through the mindless repetition of itself.

We need look no farther than the people Obama appoints and trusts on his campaigns and in his legislative career.

SZ is right: Somehow, the Great Leader, who made no bones about inserting his religion into virtually every aspect of the Executive Branch, was able to make purely political appointments. One might say a higher percentage of those appointments sucked. But you can't say that he somehow overweighed his pastor's opinions on the matter.
 
43Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 15:18
SZ -- Let's see. Wright's sermons led Obama to argue for a newfound link between government and religion. Wright was his "sounding board" and moral compass. Wright brought Obama many connections early in his career. Why would Obama turn his back on that network when he became President?

PD -- Who was George Bush's pastor? Did they have a close relationship? Remember that during the 2000 primary season, Bush's lack of religiosity was a sore point with the Christian right. He had some cred from the 1988 campaign of his father, and learned the language well. But I don't know of any relationship in Bush's past that he argued would have served well.

And, despite that, I think your characterization of his appointments as "political" misses the point. Many were "political" because they had the proper religious background and recommendations. That's "political" but also "religious". And Bush wasn't advertising a religion/political relationship revolution like what Obama wants to do.
 
44Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 15:24
Madman - are there no people from your past who you walked away from, because of things they said or did?

as Obama said, the Rev. Wright of today is not the Rev. Wright he knew 20 years ago.

recently, a good friend of mine told me that she would never vote for Obama because she can't trust him because he's black.

she's not my friend anymore, because, much like Obama won't tolerate Wright's hate speech, i won't tolerate that coming from anyone i call my friend.

a lot of what you're saying seems to come from working yourself into a frenzy over nothing - much ado about nothing, if you will.

you seem to have demonized him, because his FORMER pastor says some really fiery and off-kilter things. yet, after doing so, you casually slip in Don't see any scenario under which a Hagee will play any significant role in a McCain administration.

why is that? why would Obama's minister play any more of a significant role than McCain's would?
 
45Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 15:32
Why would Obama turn his back on that network when he became President?

What "network"? A congregation is just that, a group of people who attend a church. I do not ever remember a President-elect make appointments from his congregation or even from his church's hierarchy. You only speculate that Sen. Obama would be the first to ever do so because you are just loving the way he is squirming under this spotlight.

Wright was his "sounding board" and moral compass.

Unless Se. Obama has said, "I asked Rev. Wright for names of people to fill important governmental positions", your implication is way off base. GW and others have used Rev. Billy Graham as a "sounding board". Has anyone, other than some crazies, ever accused GW of asking Graham for important political advice?

You are starting to sound like a crazy and you are certainly better than that.
 
46Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 15:55
Tree -- why would Obama's minister play any more of a significant role than McCain's would?

You talking about Dan Yearly? I don't know much about him at all. If he was spewing political garbage that brought McCain to Jesus, then that would indeed disturb me. We know very little about McCain's faith or beliefs. He's apparently very private about that. He hasn't written a book about it, or advertised how it has motivated a revolutionary worldview that ties religion to politics.

Nevertheless, if Yearly is anything like Wright, I sincerely would appreciate the update.

SZ, in reverse order ... GW and others have used Rev. Billy Graham as a "sounding board". Has anyone, other than some crazies, ever accused GW of asking Graham for important political advice? Actually, GW *has*, IMO, excessively relied on political advice directly or indirectly influenced by certain ministers on the right. I don't see how you can defend Obama by claiming that there's some sort of positive precedent in Bush.

I don't remember what I said in 2000-2004 ... I don't think I was ever thrilled with some of Bush's innovations vis a vis faith based initiatives. If you seem to recall some affinity of mine for how Bush's religion and political philosophies have intertwined, afford me the opportunity now to disavow.

What "network"? Wright is a nationally-known theologian and preacher, well connected in the black church. His connections proved quite useful to the young Obama's rise in politics, don't see why, until this eruption, this step in the ladder would be substantively different. Emil Jones, et. al., as well.
 
47walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 15:59
Madman, I think the "guilt by association" crack is based on all of the potential inferences you are drawing. You seem to be dubious of the appointments Obama could make as a result of his network, which includes Wright, and that "Wrong" way of thinking. I think it's fair to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you don't want to wait until Obama makes these potential nepotism-like poor judgment appointments before acting...as in not voting for him. Bush certainly made of a lot of idiotic appointments based on poor judgment and close personal relationships.

To me, it's all about judgment and character and potential -- relatieve to what you know of the candidate what you think of the candidate is capable of, judgment-wise. Plus, your conclusion as to why Obama connected with Wright in the first place, stayed with Wright, and of course, what you think of Wright.

And while not his savior or this or that, McCain has aligned himself with a bigot and so what you think of McCain's character and blah blah blah.

- I think Obama chose Wright and his church early on cos they did, and still do, have a lot in common.

- I don't think Wright's controversial comments are representative of Wright or the Trinity Church. I think it's now been ultra-magnified and everything else involved, said, etc., has been cut away...it's filler. However, the filler is the real stuff and the hyperbole that the MSM focused on, and a lot of others in this discussion, is what's meaty.

- I think Obama's strength is his judgment and temperament and even-handededness, and I am for him cos I think he will be the opposite of Bush in this regard and make decisions, including appointments, based on competence and merit, not personal relationships and loyalty.

- I think the doubts you have are fair...I don't have those doubts.

- I think Obama also has a personal story here with regards to Wright that he'd rather not go into and that relates to Obama being brought up without a father, Wright serving as a father influence at some point, and a Black sub-culture related to the church and Wright's sermons that we cannot appreciate nor understand (and there is no parallel to that with Hagee...that's just overt bigotry).

So, it comes down to your assessment of the situation and your beliefs in Obama and the extent to which you really feel his future judgments would be affected by his deep and personal relationship with Wright in the past.

I really have zero concerns.
 
48Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 16:13
We need look no farther than the people Obama appoints and trusts on his campaigns and in his legislative career. - PD

Wright was on Obama's presidential campaign team until the videos came to light.

So that seals the deal then, huh PD?

 
49Perm Dude
      ID: 3943117
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 16:30
No he wasn't. He was on an honorary advisory committee which, as far as I can tell, never actually met.

 
50walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 17:07
But don't a lot of those religious dudes meet with Bush? Didn't he hold some kinda summit with evangelicals in the oval office or something? Maybe I'm making that up.

I wish he was a goddamn atheist! I'll take Hitchens as a non-spiritual advisor. So, I go the Bill Maher route and say this religious stuff can do more harm than good. However, to be serious, I think the Trinity Church had a huge outreach program, and that Obama was a big part of that, and that is a big reason why he was involved from the beginning and ongoing. However, where's THAT in the discussion? Does Hagee have a similar story? I would bet so (hope so!). And that is the good of religion -- trying to help others. So, do we think that Obama and McCain are better from their religious experiences and affiliations or worse off?

A stupid post, right? Totally consistent wit the entire supposition about these affiliations.
 
51Boldwin
      ID: 323592819
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 17:48
PD

I see he served on the 'African American Religious Leadership Committee'. Got anything you an link to about how many committee's he has and why that one was insignificant?
 
52Perm Dude
      ID: 3943117
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 18:15
No I don't.

An advisory committee which doesn't meet, however, can probably be considered insignificant, even in the resume-building of a presidential campaign.

 
53Tree
      ID: 22454218
      Fri, May 02, 2008, 21:00
it's pretty interesting to see how many white people in middle america are pretty scared of Barack Obama because of someone who used to be his minister.
 
54Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 56118297
      Sat, May 03, 2008, 09:33
Boldwin
African American Religious Leadership Committee

At least you didn't perpetuate the myth that Wright was in charge of or held some leadership role in that committee. There are something like 170 members of this national "committee" (which I've read has never actually met in person) of which Wright was 1. They serve no official purpose in the campaign.

Here's the press release announcing the creation of the committee The national members are listed. Wright's name is last.

You won't find much more than that on them. They don't have a Wiki page. Not only is the group irrelevant, but Wright was no more than 1 out of 170. In fact, the reason Wright gave for stepping down from the committee was that they didn't do anything.
 
55walk
      ID: 83171517
      Sat, May 03, 2008, 09:50
NYT, Herbert: Overkill & Issues

...what he said.
 
56walk
      ID: 83171517
      Sun, May 04, 2008, 08:20
NYT, Frank Rich
 
57walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, May 06, 2008, 13:02
NYT, Herbert: New GI Bill
 
58Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 06, 2008, 13:40
From the column in post 56:
There is not just a double standard for black and white politicians at play in too much of the news media and political establishment, but there is also a glaring double standard for our political parties. The Clintons and Mr. Obama are always held accountable for their racial stands, as they should be, but the elephant in the room of our politics is rarely acknowledged: In the 21st century, the so-called party of Lincoln does not have a single African-American among its collective 247 senators and representatives in Washington. Yes, there are appointees like Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice, but, as we learned during the Mark Foley scandal, even gay men may hold more G.O.P. positions of power than blacks.

A near half-century after the civil rights acts of the 1960s, this is quite an achievement. Yet the holier-than-thou politicians and pundits on the right passing shrill moral judgment over every Democratic racial skirmish are almost never asked to confront or even acknowledge the racial dysfunction in their own house. In our mainstream political culture, this de facto apartheid is simply accepted as an intractable given, unworthy of notice, and just too embarrassing to mention aloud in polite Beltway company. Those who dare are instantly accused of “political correctness” or “reverse racism.”

An all-white Congressional delegation doesn’t happen by accident. It’s the legacy of race cards that have been dealt since the birth of the Southern strategy in the Nixon era. No one knows this better than Mr. McCain, whose own adopted daughter of color was the subject of a vicious smear in his party’s South Carolina primary of 2000.

This year Mr. McCain has called for a respectful (i.e., non-race-baiting) campaign and has gone so far as to criticize (ineffectually) North Carolina’s Republican Party for running a Wright-demonizing ad in that state’s current primary. Mr. McCain has been posing (awkwardly) with black people in his tour of “forgotten” America. Speaking of Katrina in New Orleans, he promised that “never again” would a federal recovery effort be botched on so grand a scale.

This is all surely sincere, and a big improvement over Mitt Romney’s dreams of his father marching with the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Up to a point. Here, too, there’s a double standard. Mr. McCain is graded on a curve because the G.O.P. bar is set so low. But at a time when the latest Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll shows that President Bush is an even greater drag on his popularity than Mr. Wright is on Mr. Obama’s, Mr. McCain’s New Orleans visit is more about the self-interested politics of distancing himself from Mr. Bush than the recalibration of policy.

Mr. McCain took his party’s stingier line on Katrina aid and twice opposed an independent commission to investigate the failed government response. Asked on his tour what should happen to the Ninth Ward now, he called for “a conversation” about whether anyone should “rebuild it, tear it down, you know, whatever it is.” Whatever, whenever, never mind.

For all this primary season’s obsession with the single (and declining) demographic of white working-class men in Rust Belt states, America is changing rapidly across all racial, generational and ethnic lines. The Census Bureau announced last week that half the country’s population growth since 2000 is due to Hispanics, another group understandably alienated from the G.O.P.

Anyone who does the math knows that America is on track to become a white-minority nation in three to four decades. Yet if there’s any coherent message to be gleaned from the hypocrisy whipped up by Hurricane Jeremiah, it’s that this nation’s perennially promised candid conversation on race has yet to begin.
 
59Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Tue, May 06, 2008, 17:47
Wright's name is last. That's because it's in alphabetical order. Wright may have given that as his reason for stepping down. Can't verify it. But he stepped down right after the furor began in March, so whatever the official reason, distancing himself from the campaign was surely part of it.

As to 58, yeah, whites are not going to be the majority in awhile. But black-white demographics and issues have little impact on that. The reason for the decline in white demographics is because of a huge influx in hispanics and, to a lesser extent, Asians. That suggests black-white relations will become less important, not more.

It's also one of the reasons why the Republican party narrowly adverted total disaster by nominating the most hispanic friendly candidate they could ... They could still self-destruct on the issue, if they haven't already. But McCain will help minimize the damage until they can figure out how to throw the Lou Dobbs rhetoric overboard.
 
60Perm Dude
      ID: 1141879
      Wed, May 07, 2008, 10:38
Arizona Republic questions "maverick" label
 
61Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, May 10, 2008, 10:11
Fact check site for McCain
 
62Boldwin
      ID: 1945699
      Sat, May 10, 2008, 10:59
See now, that #60 is 'fancy statistics', a charge MITH likes throw out when he can't refute the point they make. In this case McCain breaks ranks with Republicans on tax cuts and immigration and campaign reform that helps cheaters like the Clintons and harms the Republicans. He has far and away earned his maverick label based on the key nature of the issues he breaks on.
 
63Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, May 10, 2008, 10:59
After looking through that site, it seems more of a slam site rather than any kind of non-biased fact checking source. It is more like a partisan, "check every word with an eye toward harming the candidate in question." Sorry about that.
 
64Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 10, 2008, 11:07
'fancy statistics', a charge MITH likes throw out when he can't refute the point they make.

I haven't read through that site. But it strikes me as odd that B writes the above sentence about me as employs that very tactic.

And please provide for me some examples of my use of this 'fancy statistics' charge sans and refutation of actual points. I suspect Baldwin will rely on his frequent tactic of simply ignoring a challenge to put up when he knows he can't back up the smack talk that comes out of his ass.
 
65Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, May 10, 2008, 14:00
After looking through that site, it seems more of a slam site rather than any kind of non-biased fact checking source.

Are you sure it's not a smear? ;)
 
66sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, May 10, 2008, 18:46
McCains family fortune

Now, people on the right drew much pleasure in pointing out the wealth of the spouse of the last Dem Pres candidate and how "she held the purse strings".....where is that same condemnation re their own candidate this time around?
 
67J-Bar
      ID: 53452117
      Sun, May 11, 2008, 09:08
was it the money or just her snootiness that was the reason for her condemnation
 
68Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, May 11, 2008, 11:30
There were plenty of character assaults on Kerry for his marrying into extreme wealth.
 
69Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, May 11, 2008, 13:16
Politico
McCain convention chief quits after past ties to Burma revealed

The PR executive John McCain just tapped to help run the GOP convention quit today after a report that his firm once represented the Burmese junta that is now doing little to relieve its people from the devastation incurred by this week’s cyclone.

Doug Goodyear, CEO of the DCI Group, said in a statement issued by the convention committee that he was resigning “so as not to become a distraction in this campaign.”

Asked whether he made the decision to quit or was asked by the campaign, Goodyear said: "My decision."

"[It was] unambiguously the right thing to do," he said in an email to Politico.

In a piece posted online today, Newsweek’s Michael Isikoff reported that DCI represented Burma’s military regime in 2002.

DCI is a well-regarded firm in the Republican orbit, but has been known to represent some politically controversial clients.

Given McCain’s ardor for campaign finance reform and the number of lobbyists and PR gurus who comprise the senior ranks of his campaign, his aides are acutely sensitive to appearances.
Apparently with good reason - from Newsweek:
Ironically, Goodyear was chosen for the post after the McCain campaign nixed another candidate, Paul Manafort, who runs a lobbying firm with McCain's campaign manager, Rick Davis. The prospect of choosing Manafort created anxiety in the campaign because of his long history of representing controversial foreign clients, including Philippine dictator Ferdinand Marcos. More recently, he served as chief political consultant to Viktor Yanukovich, the former Ukrainian prime minister who has been widely criticized for alleged corruption and for his close ties to Russia's Vladimir Putin—a potential embarrassment for McCain, who in 2007 called Putin a "totalitarian dictator." "The Ukrainian stuff was viewed as too much," says one McCain strategist, who asked not to be identified discussing the matter. Manafort did not return calls for comment.
 
70Tree
      Sustainer
      ID: 599393013
      Sun, May 11, 2008, 13:23
There were plenty of character assaults on Kerry for his marrying into extreme wealth.

not to mention for being a decorated war veteran.
 
71Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, May 11, 2008, 13:56
While I agree many of the assaults on his war record were unfair and/or untrue, I wouldn't quite put it that way.
 
72J-Bar
      ID: 53452117
      Sun, May 11, 2008, 21:51
i guess goodyear should now give a speech in front of the press club and i don't remember much gold digger grief that kerry got just that by the way she presented herself that she wore the pants so to speak. haven't gotten that from the mccains yet.
 
73walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 08:01
McCain and Hamas

I would have preferred to have linked to the opinion piece by Rubin in the Wash Post, but I cannot get that page to open.
 
74Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 09:08
Opens fine for me - and it's worth it's own link and excerpts:
McCain, meanwhile, is guilty of hypocrisy. I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton and believe that she was right to say, about McCain's statement on Hamas, "I don't think that anybody should take that seriously." Unfortunately, the Republicans know that some people will. That's why they say such things.

But given his own position on Hamas, McCain is the last politician who should be attacking Obama. Two years ago, just after Hamas won the Palestinian parliamentary elections, I interviewed McCain for the British network Sky News's "World News Tonight" program. Here is the crucial part of our exchange:

I asked: "Do you think that American diplomats should be operating the way they have in the past, working with the Palestinian government if Hamas is now in charge?"

McCain answered: "They're the government; sooner or later we are going to have to deal with them, one way or another, and I understand why this administration and previous administrations had such antipathy towards Hamas because of their dedication to violence and the things that they not only espouse but practice, so . . . but it's a new reality in the Middle East. I think the lesson is people want security and a decent life and decent future, that they want democracy. Fatah was not giving them that."
Cue the resounding silence from the likely McCain voters.
 
75walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 09:09
Thanks for the true "tech support," and further elaboration, MITH!
 
76Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 10:58
Heh - didn't know there was video:
 
77walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 14:31
Pwned
 
78sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 14:55
Wonder how the Swifties would try and spin that?
 
79Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 14:59
Wondering how his supporters here will reconcile their 'Obama apologist' charges with continuing their support for him.

A claim that favorable tax policy is more important than foreign policy that entertains dealing terrorists?
 
80Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 15:05
To be more clear, I mean to say that after countering every defense of every attack on Obama here with an apologist charge means they'll surely be wary of making excuses for McCain over this (and really, what is there to say?).
 
81Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 15:10
Wondering how his supporters here will reconcile their 'Obama apologist' charges with continuing their support for him.

isn't the answer pretty simple.

seems to me that we will shortly be hearing "i don't recall" coming from McCain. and his supporters will point to his age and say "so he forgets a few things...."

i don't expect anyone on this forum will seriously try and defend McCain on this. they'll just ignore it, bleat a few more times, and hope it goes away.
 
82walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 15:47
Also, to be clear, Obama said he would talk unconditionally to Iran (alleged sponsors of terrorists) whereas McCain said he would talk to Hamas (the terrorists themselves). McCain actually went further. Good for him! It takes many ways...just own up to it man, instead of falling into the Bush lockstep macho foreign policy framework. I think McCain is somewhat conflicted...he wants to separate himself from Bush, but does not do so on Iraq, but with nuance, could...however, he takes the tough-only approach instead.
 
83biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 18:56
His counter is that Bush is actually following him, instead of the reverse.

Uh huh. Who's the president, John?
 
84Wilmer McLean
      ID: 224571422
      Fri, May 16, 2008, 19:15
McCain-Rubin interview with the followup.

Rubin: “So should the United States be dealing with that new reality through normal diplomatic contacts to get the job done for the United States?”

Sen. McCain: “I think the United States should take a step back, see what they do when they form their government, see what their policies are, and see the ways that we can engage with them, and if there aren’t any, there may be a hiatus. But I think part of the relationship is going to be dictated by how Hamas acts, not how the United States acts.”




Also:

CNN'S BETTY NGUYEN: " All right, let's shift over to the global front. The Bush administration is reviewing all aspects of U.S. aid to the Palestinians now that Hamas has won the elections. And I do have to quote you here. A State Department spokesman did say this: 'To be very clear' – and I'm quoting now – 'we do not provide money to terrorist organizations.' What does this do to the U.S. relationship with the Palestinians?"

MCCAIN: "Well, hopefully, that Hamas now that they are going to govern, will be motivated to renounce this commitment to the extinction of the state of Israel. Then we can do business again, we can resume aid, we can resume the peace process." (CNN's "Saturday Morning News," 1/28/06)
 
85Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 08:42
Threatening a hiatus if Hamas should refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist hardly sounds like a very tough position - especially when it comes just moments after saything we're going to have to deal with them.

And even if The CNN interview is a more accurate representation of what he was thinking at the time, it's hardly reflective of Bush's policy toward Hamas. Establishing "this commitment to the extinction of the state of Israel" as Hamas' only condition to dealing with the US is the kind of wishy-washy policy that Dems get slammed for by GOP hawks.

Hell, the State Department and, yes, even The UN demanded back in early 2006:
"They say Hamas will be given a choice: recognize Israel's right to exist, forswear violence and accept previous Palestinian-Israeli agreements — as called for by the United Nations and the West — or face isolation and collapse.

Opinion polls show that Hamas's promise to better the lives of the Palestinian people was the main reason it won. But the United States and Israel say Palestinian life will only get harder if Hamas does not meet those three demands. They say Hamas plans to build up its militias and increase violence and must be starved out of power.

The officials drafting the plan know that Hamas leaders have repeatedly rejected demands to change and do not expect Hamas to meet them.
At most, McCain was only concerned about one condition - and his dedication to even that one is ratehr ambiguous. You think McCain and the the GOP wouldn't be skewering Obama right now if was he who made those statements in 2-year-old interviews that surfaced yesterday?
 
86Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 10:03
MITH - Seriously, you're going to defend the Rubin crap?

McCain didn't "threaten a hiatus". He made Hamas change a prerequisite for the resumption of talks and of aid to Palestine

It's always been the administration's position condition for dealing with Hamas that they renounce their goal of elimnating Israel.

Rubin is a liar who culled part of statement to give the absolutely untrue impression that McCain's position was something other than that two years ago. You bought it, but now, faced with the reality that McCain's actual position was then, as now, that Hamas would have to FIRST renounce it's position on Israel, you want to continue?

Cut bait bro.
 
87Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 11:09
It's always been the administration's position condition for dealing with Hamas that they renounce their goal of elimnating Israel.

That's it? Because I seem to recall that Hamas has already done that. In fact, they've done it more than once since January of 2006. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I've been under them impression that the Bush Administration has - rightfully - insisted on more conditions than that for diplomacy and the restoration of aid.
 
88Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 11:31
Sullivan sees light between McCain's 2006 position on Hamas and his current stance:
I'd say any fair assessment would show that McCain was intelligently prepared to see whether the US could talk to Hamas, if there could be ways to engage with them. If their behavior made that fruitless, then we shouldn't bother. That sounds perfectly sensible to me, the kind of politics McCain used to be known for, both realistic and pragmatic, and it is clearly not the rigid posture that dialogue with governments like Hamas is always unacceptable. This new position is obviously part of an attempt to paint Obama as unfit for the presidency. It's Rovian bullshit.

And, of course, with respect to Hamas, there is no daylight between Obama's position and McCain's. The only difference is with Iran.
I wouldn't bother quoting an Obama supporter on this except that Sullivan favors McCain's 2006 position on dealing with Hamas over the current Obama/Bush/McCain/Clinton stance.
 
89Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 15:01
Threatening a hiatus if Hamas should refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist hardly sounds like a very tough position - MITH

You wouldn't think so and yet it is asking them to give up the one [in their eyes] non-negotiable demand that has always been the sticking point preventing them from getting their own state.
 
90Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 15:10
asking them to give up the one [in their eyes] non-negotiable demand

Check the links in post 87

Not defending Hamas here, mind you, or claiming to believe them. Just noting that the Administration's position has been always (again, rightfully) been a bit more ardent than demanding the acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist.
 
91Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Sun, May 18, 2008, 22:39
The Republican roadmap out - Victor Davis Hanson

This is the point they left the path and where they could reaquaint themselves with success, but is there any evidence they would be willing to listen? Does anything McCain stands for line up?
 
92WiddleAvi
      ID: 323531619
      Mon, May 19, 2008, 22:20
 
93Wilmer McLean
      ID: 12448197
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 04:59




 
94Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 13:07
Exceptional piece from Hilzoy today on McCain's voting record re vet's benefits.
 
95Perm Dude
      ID: 27433209
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:08
More mideast fumblings by McCain?:
Who, exactly, should we not be speaking with?
 
96Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:20
Wow.
 
97Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:25
Hey, Wilmer, so do you think that McCain should be our president because he is on the right side of the "culture wars", that Woodstock was a low point in American history and honest, good Americans should forget it ever happened?

Well, I'll tell you that McCain is barking up the wrong tree with that line of argument. The grouchy conservatives that resented the hippies back in 1969 are all in their eighties now. McCain is welcome to that demographic.

As for the second video, I thought you were a supporter of the old guy. That embarrassing diatribe should be on Senator Obama's website as yet another example of the lies and ridiculous hatred Republicans have come to call "foreign policy" these days.

I foresee a miserable next six months for you and JBar.
 
98Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:31
The grouchy conservatives that resented the hippies back in 1969 are all in their eighties now. - SZ

I'm 54.
 
99Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:46
Yeah, but you don't vote.
 
100Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:03


from the website - The REAL John McCain...
 
101Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:05
i LOVE this one...

 
102Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 04:18
 
103walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 09:24
WSJ: Joe Lieberman on the Dem Party

I guess I put this editorial by Senator Lieberman here cos he is for McCain.
 
104Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 10:43
I had forgotten all about it but recently ran across the fact that we owe Lieberman ever becoming a Senator to BUCKPAC or more specifically the William F. Buckley family who put up the money for Lieberman to edge the infamous Lowell Weicker from the republican ticket.Of course Buckley told him at the time that it would prolly be the only time they would ever be in agreement and that Buckley would immediately begin hounding him after he made his too liberal way to the senate.
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 27433209
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 11:06
Looks like Buckley backed the right guy in the end. About the only thing keeping Lieberman from jumping parties is his repeated pledge during the campaign not to do so.

That pledge doesn't prevent him from voting with Republicans on nearly every significant piece of legislation.
 
106walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 11:36
Hagel and McCain
 
107walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 11:58
Syria and Israel have initiated peace talks in Turkey today. I wonder what McCain's views on this are? Syria is a supposed state sponsor of terrorism. Should Israel not be "legitimizing" thier tactics by engaging in these talks? Would Bush call this "appeasement?" (as if he even knows what it is).
 
108sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 12:28
After watching PDs link in post 34 here:

link

I doubt I'll ever NOT conjure this exchange when I hear the word "appeasement" ever again.
 
109Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 12:43
i fixed Joe Lieberman's first line for him...

How did the Democratic Party Joe Lieberman get here?
 
110Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:14
I wouldn't be so knee-jerk defensive about the donkey party or so pointlessly hostile to Leiberman.
 
111Perm Dude
      ID: 27433209
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:15
Pointlessly? A guy who refused to leave the race after losing the Democratic primary?
 
112Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:17
It's his right to run as an independant. His success in doing so proves that it was the right choice for him and was what the CT voters wanted.
 
113Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:25
it's not knee jerk MITH. i feel as if he's betrayed the democratic party, and those feelings aren't new.
 
114walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:30
MITH, it's interesting about Lieberman's transition and re-election. I think Lieberman would have lost to Lamont in a Dem CT primary, but beat him in the general cos the Republican voters were more comfy with Lieberman.
 
115Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:47
Some of his points are cheap shots but much of the piece contains fair observations from a Democrat/hawk perspective. For example the parties have iundeed switched foreign policy rhetoric since 2000 (remember Bush did not run as a neo-con). And much of that switch on the Dem side has been due in large part to obstructionist politics, which we know Leiberman has resented for some time. So it's silly to ask how Leiberman got here since he's pretty much where he's been.

Regarding his "betrayal" of the Dem party, if I were a member of that party I would have felt betrayed by them a long time ago. For the life of me I don't understand why anyone should have such loyalty to either party.
 
116Perm Dude
      ID: 27433209
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:50
It's his right to run as an independant.

Did I question this?

My point was his constant complaining about the Democratic Party while pledging to caucus with the Democrats in order to get elected after being rejected in the Democratic primary.
 
117Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:10
What you said was that he refused to leave the race.

He caucuses with the Dems to maintain his committe senority. As far as I understand the Dems can put put a stop to this arrangement at any time.
 
118Perm Dude
      ID: 27433209
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:21
He caucuses with the Dems because he pledged to do so, and that was how he got elected (in Connecticut there's no way he would have been elected without it). Democrats need him to caucus with them in order to maintain the majority in the Senate.

Dems might reject him after November.
 
119Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:27
I certainly woudn't criticize them for doing so.

In any case you won't get me to buy into the concept of party loyalty. If he can work himself into a position where he is able to speak his mind about party politics and still maintain the benefits of caucusing with te Dems, so be it.
 
120walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 11:26
WSJ: Biden's Editorial Reply to McCain

I like this editorial.
 
121Perm Dude
      ID: 3345239
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 12:50
Cranky John McCain
 
122Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Fri, May 23, 2008, 19:30
Watching McCain deflect 'cranky' charges until November without appearing cranky answering it one more time should be one of this year's more entertaining features.
 
123walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 15:44
McCain: Talking to Iran has not worked

Sullivan, via Hilzoy, is right? How come no mention of this? The guy is SENILE.
 
124Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 16:51
Because it isn't true. Iran has been under a LOT of pressure. Displeasure has been communicated. The big stick has been waved. The sabres have been rattled. WTF does Sullivan want? Hat in hand begging at Iran's border by a prostrate president in sackcloth and ashes?
 
125Perm Dude
      ID: 58450299
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 16:55
Nonsense. Bush wants preconditions to talk. Obama doesn't. That's the difference.
 
126walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 16:56
But it IS true, we have NOT talked to Iran...that is what Hilzoy wants...So, first, it is true, and second, that's what he wants...The stick is not working, maybe a little carrot? Try it ALL, before we then go "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb-bomb, Iran."
 
127Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 16:58
You want communication or capitulation? You're a liberal. Nevermind.
 
128walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 17:04
Tough talk...I don't see any capitulation with our current approach. You want more war and more maimed, dead and messed up folks? You're a conservative. Nevermind.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 17:27
  • Iran's PM says that the 'Isreal problem' will be solved as soon as there is a 'muslim bomb'.
  • Iran blows off the international communities demand that they not build the bomb.
  • Walk says call in Neville Chamberlain.
 
130Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 19:26
Maybe Obama would do our country a favor and send in Jimmy Carter to talk to Iran first. Carter has a real history of success with those guys. *Eyes roll*
 
131Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 19:54
black or white for Baldwin. No wonder he doesn't get diplomacy.

Luckily Reagan did.
 
132Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Thu, May 29, 2008, 20:53
Still waiting to hear what you'd say to Ahmadinejad. PD? Walk? MITH?
 
133walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, May 30, 2008, 09:29
What I would say? I did not know I was running for President. Alternatively, what would you DO with Ahmadinejad, big shot?
 
134Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Fri, May 30, 2008, 19:12
I am no part of this world so I wouldn't do anything.

An effective player within the system however would logically...

  • not punish the people of Iran for the actions of the hijackers temporarily occupying the cockpit...

  • not allow a nuke or a delivery system more than 15 minutes life when pulled out of their underground caverns.

  • not waste time, treasure and dignity attempting to bribe the implacable.

  • start taking muslim extremists at their word.
 
135Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Fri, May 30, 2008, 19:17
  • decide if the IAEA has a productive role.
 
136Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jun 05, 2008, 07:45
Hilzoy: McCain Says The Darndest Things
 
137Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jun 05, 2008, 16:36
McCain campaign ripping off Obama camp's logo and slogan
 
138Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Thu, Jun 05, 2008, 17:02
Point? Obama stole the whole "Yes we can!" bit from Bob The Builder.
 
139Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Jun 05, 2008, 17:12
walk 123 -- there are other better examples of his intermittent memory. Although technically incorrect (since it implies the President talks), it's basically true. We've talked with Iran for quite some time. By talking, we know that they continue to refuse to meet our preconditions for a Presidential-level summit.

As far as I can see, this debate is about whether we should deal with Iran the way Kennedy dealt with Russia. Historically, Presidents have reserved the prestige of the Presidency for meetings with those of either like-mind or once there is some reason to believe -- via lower-level talks -- that progress can be made. The preparation is the key.

The Kennedy-Kruschev meeting, for example, became an infamous exception to that rule since Kennedy entered it without substantial underling discussion preceding. Coupled with the Bay of Pigs, it convinced Kruschev to send missiles to Cuba. Something like that.

Since then, it seems like Obama has "clarified" his debate gaffe (which also made it onto his website in simplified form) and is now taking effectively the same position as McBush: that lower level talks need to precede a Presidential meeting. McBush argues that preconditions have to be met, whereas Obama seems to be saying that we have to have assurances that preconditions will be met once they meet ... essentially parsing hairs with his revised position. To the extent that he's moved to the right of McCain on Jerusalem with his AIPAC comments, he may now even have a higher standard to be met before he'd meet with Iranian leaders.

Dunno, that's the only sense I can make of all the crap I've read on this.
 
140Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jun 05, 2008, 17:13
Point?
Uh, a major party presidential candidate who spends millions in donations to market himself co-opts his opponent's slogan and logo into his own campaign. That seems pretty noteworthy to me. I didn't think that needed any elaboration.


Bob the Builder
Is that so? Amazing what you learn around here.
 
141walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Jun 05, 2008, 18:06
Madman, your need for specificity sometimes gets a bit carried away (!). I think the gist of Obama's view is that we could use more diplomacy in dealing with our enemies...not just "bomb first." I think McCain is more about "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran." There's a big difference. Obama is the one who came out first and said he'd speak with other leaders, without preconditions, and then he stepped back a bit, but overall, he's the one saying we ought to be doing some talking instead of just making threats and starting wars.

Boxman: I agree with MITH that ripping off a competitor's slogan is a bit revealing about the individual's innovativeness and interest in separating oneself. There's a subtle integrity issue, too. I mean, think for yourself, bro!
 
142Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jun 10, 2008, 11:12
CNN.com: McCain resurrects call for gas tax holiday
McCain aide told CNN's Dana Bash on Monday that the Arizona senator planned to plug the gas tax holiday in public statements throughout the day as a message to voters that he understands the plight of working families in a tough economy.

Before a fundraiser in Richmond, Virginia on Monday, McCain mentioned the gas tax holiday in remarks to a smaller event for about 40 high-dollar donors. "That was derided by Sen. Obama and others as a gimmick," McCain said, but added that working people and truckers would appreciate it.

"I don't pretend that it's an answer to our energy problems," he said.
 
143Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jun 11, 2008, 10:25
The current center graphic on the McCain Campaign website home page (h/t Wonkette):

 
144Perm Dude
      ID: 245411418
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 14:31
John & Cindy McCain are piling up some serious debt.

Why would anyone be carrying $500K in AMEX charges?

Comparing how the Obamas and the McCains approach their own money seems to be a topic worthy of exploration.
 
145Boldwin
      ID: 295161416
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 14:48
Oh yes, let's delve into the 'Bank of Rezko' home loan department for sure.
 
146Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 15:47
PD: If The Great Leader says "hands off my wife" and we're supposed to respect that, why can't you do in kind?
 
147Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 16:55
PD -- that guy is an idiot. First rule: when someone whiffs that bad on commentary, quit reading them.

Why would anyone be carrying $500k in AMEX charges? Let's see ... maybe if they gave me the line of credit free? Looks like they want her business, or are giving this as a perk for other business.

She needs to release info. on her finances. That's a fair quibble. But this is plain silly.

What's next, criticizing the McCain's for holding multi-millions in debt (which they do)?

2007 disclosure
 
148Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 17:04
maybe if they gave me the line of credit free

Before someone calls me stupid ... I'll also say that it is possible/likely that AMEX is charging her a fixed annual fee that we don't know about.

Again, however, even if that is true, if you find it in your best interest to own such a card, it is also in your best interest to max it out. The McCains would be engaged in financial mismanagement if they did not.
 
149Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 22:49
if you find it in your best interest to own such a card, it is also in your best interest to max it out...

Is that what they said? Where, exactly?

Otherwise you've got some big assumptions there, Madman.

What's next: College freshmen finding it in their best interest to max out their credit cards because of the cool tote bag and sports water bottle giveaway?

When you have the money to pay cash instead of charging on a credit card, you pay cash. Carrying credit card charges when you have the money on hand is just stupid fiscal policy, whether done by a business or a couple.
 
150Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 22:54
#146: If you can't see the difference between a slur directed at a candidate's wife and questioning the couple's financial decisions as a model of good behavior then you really have no place here.

As I recall, it is the GOP who are all about private moral behavior as a barometer for public life candidate acceptability. They have also, in the past, been all about fiscal responsibility as a standard of conservative philosophy.

Except, of course, when it is the Democratic candidate who shows fiscal responsiblity (and private moral behavior).
 
151Tree
      ID: 225521521
      Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 22:58
Again, however, even if that is true, if you find it in your best interest to own such a card, it is also in your best interest to max it out.

since when is it in ANYONE'S best interest to max out a credit card?

i haven't heard one financial planner say anything other than "don't spend what you can't afford", and if you're carrying 500K on a credit card, you're spending beyond your means.
 
152Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 09:54
PD, Tree -- The McCain's are worth more than $100 million. $100 million.

American Express, like they do with big-wigs that have a large number of financial dealings, is giving them a sweetheart deal, with three credit cards at zero percent interest. They do this so they can get a piece of other action the parties are engaged in, or sometimes they'll offer the deal with a fixed fee upfront, with a huge credit line.

What's a (hypothetical) $1000 per year fee to the McCains, compared to the convenience of being able to float $500k of expenses interest-free?

If someone offers you a sweetheart financing deal, take it.

On a much smaller scale, my wife and I are carrying credit card debt equal to about 30% of our income. We got a zero percent upfront 1-year offer that accompanied a large purchase. We put the cash into an 11-month CD paying 5%, effectively taking 3+% off the purchase price (5% falls to 3%+ because of taxes). Here at the end of the summer, the CD cashes out, we pay off the card, end of story, a few hundred bucks for free.
 
153Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 10:02
And don't forget, even if there is no annual fee, and even at the McCain's 0% interest rate, it's not like AMEX is giving away the service. They're still skimming off the seller's 3%ish on everything the McCain's are charging.

Obama supporters apparently have run out of substantive criticisms of McCain.
 
154Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 10:04
Part of the reason American Express can offer such a sweetheart deal is the astonishing amount the vendor pays in percentages and fees as opposed to Visa/Mastercard, even Discover.

That's the reason a small business owner like me doesn't accept American Express, even though I would do it in a heartbeat if the math worked.

There has never been a case where a customer of mine, wanting to use American Express, didn't have either Visa/Mastercard as an alternate form of payment.
 
155Perm DUde
      ID: 52539169
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 10:40
What's a (hypothetical) $1000 per year fee to the McCains, compared to the convenience of being able to float $500k of expenses interest-free?

It is $1000/year. Are you saying that the McCains are so out-of-touch with everyday Americans that $1000/year is nothing to them?

Here's convenience to you: Pay cash. Or use a debit card (same exact convenience factor, plus no fees). If the $1000/year isn't that much to you, then donate it or put it into a college fund.

Carrying large amounts on a charge card when you have the money to pay it off is stupid. Now, maybe your point is that we should not hold the wealthy to some kind of fiscal responsibility standard, because they are not facing the kind of money crunch which would make $1000 seem like real money. Or it is that AMEX is more convenient than a debit card. Or that the way one handles ones personal finances should have absolutely no bearing on how one approaches public finances. I dunno. It seems like none of those are really washing.

I should be upfront, as I have in the past, and note that I'm a big believer in Dave Ramsey.
 
156Razor
      ID: 4532926
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:16
PD, I think you are off on this one. For one, the McCain's are not in any sort of financial trouble. That they have a $500,000 credit card debt should be of no consequence to anyone except themselves considering they are worth $100 million. For two, if they are indeed playing a marginal flat rate on their credit card, it would behoove them to borrow to the max and invest the money they would have spent paying it off. When it's cheaper to borrow than it is to pay it off, you borrow. I think that being worth $100 mil puts them out of touch with everyday Americans moreso than the cost of their credit cards and how easily they can float debt.

Total non-issue, in my opinion.
 
157Perm Dude
      ID: 52539169
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:19
Oh, I'm not talking about it in any terms of financial trouble--my point was always about fiscal aptitude. The US isn't in financial trouble either but this doesn't mean we need continue doing what we are doing.

And the contrast between the two candidates is another way to demonstrate that, in some ways, Obama is the more conservative one.
 
158Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 13:56
we pay off the card, end of story, a few hundred bucks for free.

Yeah, in the past, in order for a company to illegally give campaign contributions to politicians, they used to come up with these convoluted schemes like cattle futures trading, or letting Senators get in on IPO's before they hit the market. Why bother? Now give them a tens of thousands of dollars free by charging them no interest on their credit cards. It's so simple. I'm sure McCain is innocent, he has repeatedly said that he doesn't really know that much about money and the economy...
 
159Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 14:20
The US isn't in financial trouble either but this doesn't mean we need continue doing what we are doing.

The US is 60 Trillion in debt under US GAAP. The annual GDP is about 12 trillion. This is unpayable. The dollar continues to go down the toilet. The big banks are bankrupt IMO. And people are arguing about Obama baby or whatever it was.
 
161Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 22:28
Now give them a tens of thousands of dollars free by charging them no interest on their credit cards. It's so simple. That's a reasonable query, SZ. From what I understand, however, this is normal operating procedure for AMEX for relatively wealthy folk. Makes sense why they would want to do it ... as PV notes, their business model works the business side of things.

As far as Dave Ramsey, I know many people that he's helped. However, his rules are a bit absolute, designed to help those who are in real need. With hundreds of millions in net wealth and financial advisors out the wazoo, I wouldn't put the McCains in that camp.

BTW, in your example, it's better to pay the $1k up front, invest the $500k in tax-free muni's, and at the end of the year give the tens of thousands of dollars of extra cash to the charity of your choice. Giving the $1k to the charity upfront isn't maximizing your resources.
 
162Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 08:51
Hilzoy: A couple of weeks I noted that John McCain didn't seem to understand what a cap and trade system was, despite the fact that he not only advocates such a system, but has actually co-sponsored legislation to create one. There was some debate in comments about whether McCain might have meant something else. Now, however, Kate Sheppard at Gristmill reports that he's done it again.
 
163Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 08:54
Hilzoy again: A Strange Way To Spend Your Time or: McCain Fundraiser Follies
 
164Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:53
well, it was just a matter of time before the McCain camp went all Rove on us...

McCain aide says Obama has Sept. 10 mind-set

In a conference call with reporters, McCain adviser Randy Scheunemann said Tuesday: "Senator Obama is a perfect manifestation of a September 10th mind-set. ... He does not understand the nature of the enemies we face." Former CIA director James Woolsey said Obama has "an extremely dangerous and extremely naive approach toward terrorism ... and toward dealing with prisoners captured overseas who have been engaged in terrorist attacks against the United States."

and all of this because Obama commended the job done in prosecuting the 1993 WTC terrorists.

Obama said the government can crack down on terrorists "within the constraints of our Constitution." He mentioned the indefinite detention of Guantanamo Bay detainees, contrasting their treatment with the prosecution of the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.

"And, you know, let's take the example of Guantanamo," Obama said. "What we know is that, in previous terrorist attacks — for example, the first attack against the World Trade Center — we were able to arrest those responsible, put them on trial. They are currently in U.S. prisons, incapacitated.

"And the fact that the administration has not tried to do that has created a situation where not only have we never actually put many of these folks on trial, but we have destroyed our credibility when it comes to rule of law all around the world, and given a huge boost to terrorist recruitment in countries that say, 'Look, this is how the United States treats Muslims. ...

"We could have done the exact same thing, but done it in a way that was consistent with our laws," Obama said.
 
165Boldwin
      ID: 295161616
      Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 17:27
"We could have done the exact same thing, but done it in a way that was consistent with our laws," Obama said

Clintonesque, Bill not Hill.

Brilliant. 'We could have' leaves the door open to believe he would have accomplished the same things to prevent terrorism, seven years without another 9/11.

We can do it!

But law enforcement approach he really would have pursued would not have pleased the swing voters who will be sucked into believing Obama might have done the exact same thing only legal and popular in France.

Well who doesn't want legal, but France's sympathy over 9/ll didn't last a week. They prolly spent that night counting the days till France thru the EU would supplant the USA as the world's superpower. There isn't anything Obama could have done to please the French politicians [and most other powers] in bed with Saddam.
 
166biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 15:13
 
167biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 23:10


Don't watch if you're allergic to laughter....


...or have this irrational idea that McCain's not suffering from PTSD.

WARNING: No substantiated-clip zone.
 
168biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 23:11
Oh, shiznet.

SECOND WARNING: Don't click the little arrow if you have tender ears.
 
169biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 23:13
Back-story: Apparently 3 reporters heard the offending comment, but chose not not to report it.
 
170walk
      ID: 12558186
      Sat, Jun 21, 2008, 09:45
Very funny, bili! Thanks for finding and sharing.
 
171biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 00:28
Bad Week for McCain.

1. McCain unambiguously called Social Security "an absolute disgrace."

2. McCain's top economic policy adviser calls Americans a bunch of "whiners" for being worried about the slumping economy.

3. Iraqi leaders call for a timetable for U.S. withdrawal, McCain gets caught in a bizarre denial and flip flop.

4. McCain's economic plan to cut the deficit has no details and is simply not believable.

5. McCain's deficit plan includes bringing the troops home represents a major Iraq flip-flop.

6. McCain campaign misled about economists support.

7. McCain makes a joke about killing Iranians.

8. McCain denies, flatly, that he ever said that he is not an expert in economics.

Why aren't we hearing about any of this? The only one I heard about was 2. Liberal media my arse.
 
172Perm Dude
      ID: 17642110
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 01:42
How about McCain lying about veteran organizational endorsements?

While we honor McCain the veteran, we should also express our dismay at what McCain the senator is doing to veterans in this country.
 
173boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 11:01

1. McCain unambiguously called Social Security "an absolute disgrace."

2. McCain's top economic policy adviser calls Americans a bunch of "whiners" for being worried about the slumping economy.


these are both true statements though...i guess tell the truth is worse than lying.
 
174biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 11:54
True or not, you'd think they would be press-worthy. Fortunately, at least 2 made the papers.

When multi-millionaire presidential candidates or their representatives call folks struggling to feed their kids "whiners", it may be true, but it ain't gonna help you get elected.
 
175boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 12:15
that was my point that if tell the truth it hurts your chances of getting elected, it is better to just lie and then we wonder why all of our politcians are seen as not being honest.
 
176Perm Dude
      ID: 2767118
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 12:26
I guess "leadership" doesn't enter into it for you?
 
177boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 12:33
I guess "leadership" doesn't enter into it for you?

I am not sure what this has to do with with telling the truth and telling people what they want to hear.
 
178Perm Dude
      ID: 2767118
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 12:42
You've stated that either you lie and get elected, or tell the truth and don't.

Leaders tell the truth, even truths that people don't want to hear.

 
179boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 12:52
I disagree with that statement, completely. Can you even give an example of this style of leadership, were someone got elected on telling people the truth? I doubt it?
 
180Perm Dude
      ID: 2767118
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 13:24
You want examples of politicians who told the truth and were not electorially punished for it?
 
181boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 13:50
I would like some examples were politcians benefitted from telling people unpopular truths.
 
182Perm Dude
      ID: 2767118
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 14:12
Winston Churchill

Clinton in 1992 (particularly on deficit spending)

Obama has a strong tendency, in this election, to tell people the things they don't want to hear.
 
183biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 14:14
Off the top of my head, Obama truths it would have been easier for him not to speak:

Gas Tax Holiday won't work

It won't be easy to immediately cover everyone with Health insurance.

 
184boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 15:45
those are minor truths? i mean everyone allready knows that the spending money you dont have is probably not a great idea and i think everyone knows that everyone is not going to immediately get covered with health insurance.

what do you think would happen if Obama came out and said the gas tax holiday will not work because gas is going to $4 or more and there is nothing we can do about it, so get use to it. Or there are not enough docters in america for everyone to get free health insurance so get use to it.
 
185Perm Dude
      ID: 2767118
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 16:04
Is that the truth? Or there are not enough docters in america for everyone to get free health insurance so get use to it. You might as well say "people can't fly." "Everyone" is not asking for "free health insurance."
 
186boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 16:45
sorry strike the free mis read on my part, either way i have no idea if that is trueor not. just making up example. if it is do think a canidate would come out and say that? how about America will never be and can not be energy dependent with out major cut in living standards. where is your politcal leader telling us the truth that they can not solve our problems but that i will do my best to make some people better off and in doing so some people will be worse off?
 
187Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 23:16
br 171 -- Take McCain's statement on SS. Summarized, it went like this.

1) We've mortgaged the program (i.e., took the surplus and spent it)
2) Young workers and children won't get the same benefits as current retirees unless we fix it. (defensible as % of replacement income, the Democrats' favored approach)
3) We're taking their tax money to pay for the benefits of seniors.
4) That's a disgrace.

That is a disgrace. It's also going to wreck the program. We're asking all future generations to sacrifice. I'll be surprised if Social Security as we know it is politically supportable 25 years from now unless this imbalance is fixed.
 
188Perm Dude
      ID: 2767118
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 00:26
McCain does seem to be disgusted that Social Security has been working the way it was intented to.
 
189Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 05:53
McCain does seem to be disgusted that Social Security has been working the way it was intented to.

It was intended to be insolvent?
 
190Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 09:35
Er, just because we need to make changes now to prevent insolvency in the future of the program doesn't mean that Social Security isn't being funded exactly as planned for decades. McCain expresses dismay that we are using today's tax money to pay for today's retirees.

Exactly as was intended.

Add "Social Security" to the list of stuff McCain doesn't know much about.
 
191Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 12:58
McCain expresses dismay that we are using today's tax money to pay for today's retirees.

No. That was the last sentence of a sequence of statements about Social Security. If you take all the sentences together, it makes perfect sense.

Your comment about "decades" is a bit deceiving, as well. The idea behind todays benefit formula only dates to the late 70s, with the specifics being unchanged since the '83 reform.

McCain didn't mention this, but all of us should also bear in mind that the design built in the 70s and 80s purposefully exposes Social Security payments to national wage risk. The year you turn 60 is a "magic" year, anchoring your *entire* wage history up to that point. If real wages decline the year you turn 60, you're sore out of luck, with your entire "promised benefit" getting hit by the shock.

Because this feature of the benefit is relatively new, there have actually only been two downturns that this formula has survived: the 91-92 downturn and the 2001-2002 downturn. Both were known more for sticky employment. Real benefits were hit by those unlucky enough to have been born in the wrong year, but it wasn't terribly bad. Basically, however, if you were born in 1948 or 1949, I'd still be pretty darned nervous. And there's nothing you can do about it.

One of the stranger elements of this election is that the Democrat is the one attacking the moral underpinnings of Social Security, viewing it as a welfare-for-the-poor benefit rather than a *social* security plan. It will take a few election cycles, but that approach coupled with ever-deteriorating net benefits will spell the death of Social Security as we know it. McCain's goal of trying to find additional funding to augment the program is less revolutionary from that perspective. Ironies abound in this election.
 
192Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 13:34
Question for Madman. My on again off again girlfriend of 7 years gets a social security check every month for her and her two minor children.

She began getting these checks a couple of years ago after her ex-husband died at roughly age 45. My experience with him was that he was a scammer who made most of his money the last few years of his life doing deals on E-Bay and the money he made was all under the table.
It's likely he at one time had a legitimate job and paid into the system, but I have a hard time believing it could have been a very large contribution. And to be honest, I don't know if they were actually ever legally divorced, but I know he never paid a dime in child support.

She receives enough that she quit her job when the checks started coming, but I don't know the monthly amount.

The question is whether SS was originally set up as a one-payer, one collector system, or was the extension of benefits to spouses and children an afterthought. Also, is the money paid to survivors directly tied to the amount paid into the system, or is there one set amount?

 
193Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 14:24
#191: First of all, the 70's is still "decades." Not deceiving at all.

McCain was attacking primarily how the benefits were funded. Not the benefits themselves. And the way they are funded is essentially unchanged since its start.
 
194Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:45
was the extension of benefits to spouses and children an afterthought.

It dates to the 1939 amendments ... which provided 50% of a man's base benefit to wives of eligible workers (when the "wives" provision switched to "spouse", I don't know ... I think the 1983 revisions made SS gender-neutral, but that particular provision may have been wiped out earlier).

Widower and dependent children benefits are separate (and larger). A surviving spouse gets 100% of the spouse's benefit ... a widower gets 75%, I think, if they have dependent children ... but the dependent children get an additional 75%.

In your particular situation, some comments ... whether they were legally divorced or not doesn't matter if they were married 10 years ... Once the children turn 16, her check will end. When the children turn 18 (or graduate HS) their checks will end. Just something to be aware of, and don't take my word alone. SSA info. ...

Also, is the money paid to survivors directly tied to the amount paid into the system, or is there one set amount? The monthly checks are based on the work history of the deceased. If the deceased was older than 65, then the calc. is based on the exact same data and methodology as their regular benefit. In your significant other's case, I'm not sure what adjustments would be made because of the premature death ... normal SS benefits are calculated assuming a max possible 35 year work history, and I don't know if that is adjusted for early death ... some additional info

But the monthly checks are *not* a pre-set amount ... and the more recorded, official SS wages he earned, the higher the surviving widow's benefit would be ... Although the benefit formula is very progressive, meaning that every extra dollar of wages earned translates into smaller additional dollars of monthly benefits.

Lastly, just to make this confusing, there is a tiny one-time lump-sum death benefit, something like $200-$300. That benefit *is* a pre-set amount, assuming eligibility.
 
195Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 18:11
The lump sum amount is $255 right now, I believe, but paid only if the surviving spouse lived in the same house at the time of the worker's death.

Madman is right that the more over-the-table money the worker makes the larger the survivor checks. The SSA calculates it based upon "credits" that a worker accumulates if they die before retirement age. In some cases, a worker might not build up enough "credits" to pay any benefits to survivors (my mother-in-law, who passed away in April, died about 2 credits short of having benefits payable. Bonus for the government there. She never collected a dime of Social Security money).
 
196Perm Dude
      ID: 386551611
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 23:16
McCain co-opting Obama's Afghanistan position.
 
197CanadianHack
      ID: 21937272
      Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 15:54
McCain's economic policy?
 
198boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 16:03
can some tell me what in the world "fix the economy" means? i here it be throw around all time it was just used in the posted article. the economy is not a car you can't just fix it, just like you can not fix physics.
 
199Perm Dude
      ID: 17656208
      Sun, Jul 20, 2008, 22:55
hilzoy on McCain painting himself into a corner on Iraq, even while he co-opts Obama's "naive" positions on Iraq and elsewhere

Pretty tough little piece.
 
200Taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Mon, Jul 21, 2008, 18:37
McCain Economic Policy boat is rudderless and adrift AND McCain flipflops by adopting Obamma's 12 month old stance that the real terroist problem exists in Afghanistan

McCain's lack of economics insight will become a glaring weakness in the days ahead.
 
201Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Jul 21, 2008, 19:03
from Taxman's post 200

Given that Mr. McCain’s sole private-sector job was a fleeting stint in public relations at his father-in-law’s beer distributorship, he comes by his economic ignorance honestly.



That's funny. McCain is really starting to shape up a lot like Walter Mondale and Mike Dukakis, two meager, uninspiring men coughed up by their parties without a strong base of support. And like Dukakis, he has a rail thin ex-addict for a wife. Kitty's shame will always be the "rubbing alcohol" admission. Cindy's will be stealing drugs and avoiding felony charges.
 
202Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Mon, Jul 21, 2008, 23:56
Did the party cough him up or the MSM?
 
203biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 00:32
He's been chucking up enough loogies all on his own that neither was necessary. The reporters around him have been protecting him, but they can't protect him completely.

Another "mistake," this time on foreign policy.

"[T]here's a lot of things we need to do. We have a lot of work to do, and I'm afraid that it's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq-Pakistan border. And I would not announce that I'm going to attack Pakistan, as Senator Obama did when he was during his campaign."


Iraq and Pakinstan don't share a border, and Obama never said he would attack Pakistan. A mistake and a lie.
 
204Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 09:34
And he can't keep sunni and shiite straight without a teleprompter. No question Obama is even more a protected media darling.

It's all a sham.
 
205Perm Dude
      ID: 35612218
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 10:36
Obama is "protected" because he has his facts straight?

I think you are mixing up your GOP talking points again.
 
206Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 11:02
Hillary isn't lying 100% of the time. The media really would all bump heads reaching for a pillow for Obama.

I am going to find these two debating to be very interesting since they are both highly teleprompter reliant.
 
207Perm Dude
      ID: 35612218
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 12:33
I have no idea about how you might think that of Obama. In a debate, the only questions are "how soon until McCain loses his temper" and "what is the over/under for McCain factual errors he should know."

I really don't see Obama as error free, but the magnitude of errors by McCain is quite a bit above Obama's, for which the media has been giving McCain a huge pass, for the most part.
 
208boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 13:22
the debates will be interesting as Obama will dodge questions and mccain will confuse them....

If i have not said this here yet or not i am predicting that the media will get harder on Obama and easier on McCain as the election gets closer. As Obama begins to pull away the media will try and compensate by making it look like a race, because really no one cares about a predictable out come.
 
209biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 14:10
How can they get easier on McCain than they already are?!?

His confusion and utter inability to present a coherent strategy on anything simply go un-covered the majority of the MSM.

It's like they are treating him as dottering, and therefore his charming foibles aren't even worthy of report.
 
210Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 14:19
Boikin has a point. The media has a vested interest in a horse race they can call. They need to keep the appearance of a close race.
 
211Perm Dude
      ID: 116162212
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 14:22
I agree. They have a self-fulfilling need to "analyze" which means they need engagement to do so. They'll make it up if they have to.

But I agree with bili as well: McCain has gotten off with virtually no scrutiny paid to his domestic agenda. His entire campaign, at this point, has already boiled down to "I was right on the surge and Obama was not."
 
212Perm Dude
      ID: 116162212
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 14:24
BTW, anyone else think that McCain essentially challenging Obama to go to Iraq has to be one of the biggest blunders of the campaign? Didn't anyone in the McCain camp consider that the whole thing would not only turn into a media circus, but make Obama look presidential in the process?
 
213biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 14:29
I think it was a calculated risk. He could, and still can, make a serious blunder on his trip. It might be only only chance McCain has got.
 
214Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 14:30
Yeah, it feels like I'm watching President-Elect Obama being greeted by foreign dignitaries as he enjoys his foreign policy educational tour.
 
215Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 16:35
lol...101, baby.
 
216Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Jul 22, 2008, 16:40
Yeah, it feels like I'm watching President-Elect Obama being greeted by foreign dignitaries as he enjoys his foreign policy educational tour.

With the way McCain is seemingly handing him this race, Obama might as well continue his World Tour (Obamapalooza?) and visit China, India, Russia, Europe and Great Britain. Just be back in time to accept the nomination.
 
217Perm Dude
      ID: 2625247
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 13:38
McCain aides once again willing to twist Obama's words to make a point.

The point being: McCain's aides need to work on reading comprehension
 
218sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 13:55
McCains aides are counting on the laziness of too many to do any research of their own, and thus to simply eat this spoon fed crap as fact. Its shameful to be sure, but politics as usual in the USA.
 
219Perm Dude
      ID: 126252614
      Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 20:27
The McCain campaign is in a race, with themselves, to the bottom, it seems. After asserting several times that Obama was willing to "lose the war in order to win a political campaign" (think about that for a moment), the latest attack ad takes on Obama for not visiting hospitalized troops because "the Pentagon wouldn't allow him to take cameras."

This is too far for many. Allahpundit, no friend of Democrats, offers up several at least plausible story lines the campaign could have gone with. The campaign took the one without any truth to it. Another FactCheck.org entry for the McCain campaign in the making.

 
220Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 07:39
McCains aides are counting on the laziness of too many to do any research of their own, and thus to simply eat this spoon fed crap as fact. Its shameful to be sure, but politics as usual in the USA.

Much akin to The Audacity of Hope crowd right?
 
221Perm Dude
      ID: 206482711
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 12:53
Or the Administration backers?

There are always going to be partisan backers who won't listen to anything but their adoring leader. Obama certainly has some people like that at well.

But Obama's aides are different than McCain's aides, in the same way that the two are running much different campaigns. And pointing out that there are people who would follow Obama no matter what the campaign doesn't take away from that.

McCain is running a race to the bottom. Perhaps he believes that's all he's got. Or perhaps Republicans have gotten into a campaigning rut for years now, and only know how to campaign this way.
 
222Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 20:46
What presidential politics has come down to...
'Hello, Ted Nugent?

Yes

This is John McCain.

Well Hello Mr. McCain.

Listen Ted, the media is counting heads at stadiums and Obama always starts his rallies off with a concert. I'm having a rally in your area. Do you think you could stop by and play something, say a few words to the crowd?
 
223Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 20:48
PD

The NYT press clippings always told McCain middle america, moderates and swing voters loved him. What's he got to worry about? He can believe the grey lady, can't he?
 
224Perm Dude
      ID: 586372716
      Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 21:47
Did they?

Anyone who believes their own press clippings deserves to go down amid a flurry of unforced errors.
 
225boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 09:11
the latest attack ad takes on Obama for not visiting hospitalized troops because "the Pentagon wouldn't allow him to take cameras."

i do not know if this is true of Obama, but does seem his style. I do not know who runs his image campaign but they do an extremely good job of creating an image for him. look at his trip to isreal you see tons of photo ops with the Israelis, but none with the Arabs. McCain is pretty much done as canidate, the branding of Obama is getting to be ingrained as Coke a Cola. i wonder if any companies are going to be looking to hire Obama aids after the election to turn around there images.
 
226Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 09:17
I do not know who runs his image campaign but they do an extremely good job of creating an image for him. look at his trip to isreal you see tons of photo ops with the Israelis, but none with the Arabs.

Did you see him on Meet The Press or watch Matthews yesterday? They threw out some numbers and he's still not doing well with Jews.

McCain is pretty much done as canidate, the branding of Obama is getting to be ingrained as Coke a Cola.

McCain could win if he wanted to. I'm thinking the fix is in to be honest with you.

i wonder if any companies are going to be looking to hire Obama aids after the election to turn around there images.

You could bet money on that; speech writers too.
 
227boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 09:27
McCain could win if he wanted to. I'm thinking the fix is in to be honest with you.

i think mccain could have won 8 years ago i think his age and his handlers are his undoing. he still comes off and old and unsure of himself. If he just went with ideas that he believed instead of letting people cue in different directions he would have a much better chance.
 
228Perm Dude
      ID: 53657288
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 09:58
I agree, boikin. But I don't think there is any "fix" as Boxman does. McCain genuinely wants to win, but he's saddled with a poorly run campaign (to this point) for a "brand" which people are turning away from.

he's still not doing well with Jews.

I'm not at all sure what this means. What's the "target amount?" He's got a higher support among Jews than Lieberman. And Jews now consistently disapprove of the President's job by a higher-than-national-average amount.

[BTW, what seems to be important in any poll is not the religious affiliation of the responder, but how important their religion is to that person. Jews who report that their religion is important to them split their choices equally between the two candidates. Jews who report that religion is not very important are overwhelimingly Obama supporters. Gallup religious intensity poll]

In any case, tracking polling at this point seems very silly. We're far out still (99 days and counting) and overall support for the candidates haven't changed very much in some time.
 
229Perm Dude
      ID: 53657288
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 10:22
Regarding McCain's latest ad full o'lies linked to in #219, I didn't realize when I posted it that the background video of the claim that Obama went "to the gym" instead of seeing the troops which shows him dribbling a basketball is from a video of Obama playing ball with the troops in Kuwait. Happens about 18-19 seconds in.

Oh, the irony!
 
230Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 13:15
Jews who report that their religion is important to them split their choices equally between the two candidates. Jews who report that religion is not very important are overwhelimingly Obama supporters.

this shouldn't come as a surprise.

for a majority of religious jews, a candidate's stance on israel can really make it a one-issue race for them. if Obama and my dad lined up exactly the same politically on every issue aside from israel, my dad would not vote for Obama.

based on conversations with my parents (who are orthodox) and their friends, there is a real concern that Obama isn't genuine on his statements about Israel.

if they eventually come around and believe him, he'll get that vote in a landslide. but if they don't, it's going to be a LOT closer among orthodox jews, but with a smaller turnout
 
231boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 14:06
Regarding McCain's latest ad full o'lies linked to in #219, I didn't realize when I posted it that the background video of the claim that Obama went "to the gym" instead of seeing the troops which shows him dribbling a basketball is from a video of Obama playing ball with the troops in Kuwait. Happens about 18-19 seconds in.

HAHA...this leads me to believe that McCain will end up with one the most miss managed campaigns in recent history.
 
232Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 16:51
How was a guy who polls second among voters most likely to vote for him, ever going to beat the guy his voters like more? The only way McCain could possibly win is if enuff issues crop up that make people vote against Obama. Radicalism, SCOTUS nominees, gas price issue remains issue #1...something like that.
 
233walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Jul 28, 2008, 17:27
#230. Yeah, my Jewish mom who lives in South Florida in a retirement community of Jewish elders, says all of her neighbors are for McCain because he is "more for Israel." My mom, the liberal, says to them: "Obama is pro-Israel, too," but they do not believe it. She then asks them where they live, Israel or the U.S., and then they go off on her. LOL.
 
234Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 13:58
Read my lips...no new taxes...errr...uhhh...well..maybe..no promises! i had my fingers crossed!
 
235Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jul 30, 2008, 15:58
wow. talk about the McCain campaign grasping at straws...

The ad features images of Britney Spears, Paris Hilton and a sea of people listening to Obama speak in Berlin, juxtaposing those with claims that the Democrat's policies would raise taxes and increase imports of foreign oil.

"Do the American people want to elect the world's biggest celebrity or do they want to elect an American hero?" Schmidt said.
 
236Perm Dude
      ID: 27639309
      Wed, Jul 30, 2008, 17:33
Former McCain advisor calls the ad "childish"

Good response by Obama at the end.
 
237sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jul 30, 2008, 19:37
brilliant response by Obama. Frankly, I think McCain NEEDS to listen to his former friend. He seems to me, to be spot on in his assessment.
 
238Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 13:37
McCain campaign accuses Obama of playing race card

more and more, the McCain campaign is somehow managing to take the worst aspects from every previous Republican presidential candidate ever, and increase them exponentially.

what scares me is that there enough total idiots in this country (see the election of 2004 for a point of reference), that they'll buy into McCain's absolute silliness, and vote for him.
 
239bibA
      ID: 146452817
      Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 15:51
Prediction: Between now and November, Fox will run commentaries daily wherein the word "race" is mentioned time and time again. They will always attempt to put it in a context of "the other guy is constantly talking about race"......as they continue to bring the subject up.
 
240boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 16:05
i was just thinking i may need to vote for mccain so he can win and give me something to read here, other wise if Obama wins what and in the world will there to be to discuss.
 
241sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 16:41
How much better things are?
How much improvement there is in international relations?
How much less tension there is in the air?
 
242boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 18:51
hopefully sarge you will be the first one start those threads, to bad the lets talk about good things a) don't last and b) dont last long.
 
243boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 18:56
i wonder will become the leader to impeachobama.com site...out of curiosity i looked up the site it has been own since 04. but it and impeach-obama.com both expire in 09...
 
244biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Aug 01, 2008, 08:17
McCain headed for the gutter faster than I imagined.

The ad gave us an uneasy feeling that the McCain campaign was starting up the same sort of racially tinged attack on Mr. Obama that Republican operatives, some of whom work for Mr. McCain now, ran against Harold Ford, a black candidate for Senate in Tennessee in 2006. That assault, too, began with videos juxtaposing Mr. Ford with young, white women.

Mr. Obama called Mr. McCain on the ploy, saying, quite rightly, that the Republicans are trying to scare voters by pointing out that he “doesn’t look like all those other Presidents on those dollar bills.’’

But Rick Davis, Mr. McCain’s campaign manager, had a snappy answer. “Barack Obama has played the race card, and he played it from the bottom of the deck,” he said. “It’s divisive, negative, shameful and wrong.’’

The retort was, we must say, not only contemptible, but shrewd. It puts the sin for the racial attack not on those who made it, but on the victim of the attack.


McCain knows if he sticks to the issues, he's sunk. Viciously negative from here on out, it seems.
 
245Perm Dude
      ID: 35712110
      Fri, Aug 01, 2008, 11:12
The McCain campaign has all those snappy answers pre-written. They've become masters of the viscious ad cycle.

In fact, the word is that they had another ad ready to go in case Obama got in to see the troops, calling on him for cynically "exploiting the troops for political gain."

Obama needs to just avoid the mines and leave them twisting in the wind. They are counting on him taking the bait and are waiting in the tall grass.

Its all very 2004.
 
246biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Fri, Aug 01, 2008, 17:01
 
247walk
      ID: 5371327
      Sat, Aug 02, 2008, 11:57
NYT, Herbert: Race Factor (Running While Black)

Herbert is soooooo correct on this one. Freakin campaign bastids.
 
248walk
      ID: 5371327
      Sat, Aug 02, 2008, 12:01
I agree, obviously, with what PD and bili are saying about the sudden and terrible turn the McCain campaign has taken. It's all the Roveians he recently hired. It's shameful and yet their ownly recourse. I have no respect for McCain's comments about running a high-minded campaign. He has given up on that. Lame-o. Herbert's piece just really puts it out there and goes farther by indicating how the McCain campaign is seizing on centuries old white man's fears of the black man, and how it is a very tricky situation for Obama to respond, cos he is black. I hope our country shows what is more important in the election in November and McCain is trounced and made out to be the one who actually has a lot more in common with Britney and Paris than Obama (not popularity, but (a lack of) intelligence). He knows nothing.
 
249sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Aug 02, 2008, 13:52
Senator McCain is the head of a party that has viciously exploited race for political gain for decades.

He’s obviously more than willing to continue that nauseating tradition.


word.
 
250Perm Dude
      ID: 272312
      Sun, Aug 03, 2008, 13:04
The race to play the race card.

McCain campaign's strategy on race is to (a) play the race card and then (b) accuse Obama of having played the race card.
 
251J-Bar
      ID: 5267276
      Sun, Aug 03, 2008, 23:41
Someone please explain what the ad had to do with race other than obama's camp response.
 
252biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sun, Aug 03, 2008, 23:53
They were juxtaposing Obama's pictures with young white women, feeding long-held fears of black men. See post 244. This has been repeatedly used by Republicans against black candidates quite effectively in the past. It's vile.

Now's the time you need to strike the clueless innocent pose, J-Bar.
 
253Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 00:18
Not just young white women, but two women famous for their sexual indiscretion. As I heard somewhere, a woman famous for photos taken of her in public with no underwear on and Paris, who wasn't wearing any underwear in her amature porn flick, either.

The $hit-eating grin that McCain was sporting when asked about these ads was quite worrisome. He said he was having some "fun" on the campaign trail. It was the happiest he had seemed in months. He's betraying a twisted, cruel side that is far from presidential. I can imagine him laughing wickedly with David Addington as they think up of nasty tortures the CIA can use on terror suspects. Then he goes on a tirade about what he wanted to do to those "gooks", (a term he unapologetically used and probably still uses to describe his Vietnamese captors) as he starts smashing all the glass in the room with his cane.

Cue the nurse with the high blood pressure meds.

We don't need this for four years.
 
254Tree
      ID: 5974248
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 09:45
SZ - i firmly believe that if McCain is elected, it will be another big nail in the coffin of the American Empire.

all Empires fall. ours is being hastened by madmen, and the fools who believe in them.
 
255boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 10:31
Tree you got any facts to back that up, in all likelihood the chances are both candidates are equally likely to be driving away with a nail gun.
 
256Perm Dude
      ID: 207349
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 10:38
Any evidence to back that up? Obama seems much more likely to adhere to the law, both domestic and international.

How a man runs his campaign is a good peek into how he'll run his Administration.
 
257boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 10:54
what does adhere to the law have to with falling empires? i do not see china adhering to any laws and it does not seem to be hurting them. And besides does adhering to laws that wrong make you good. i think you are making a logical error.
 
258Perm Dude
      ID: 207349
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 11:01
You are saying that the rule of law should be arbitrary--that we should aspire to China-like adherance to our own laws?

Pretty much the very definition of empire failure is the refusal, by those in power, to follow their own laws.

The baseline of leadership, in a democracy, should be to follow the law. Nor unilaterally declare them "wrong" in order to break them, then try to cover up the fact that they did.
 
259Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 11:31
Boikin - we've had a good run. but over the last 7+ years, we've had an administration that believed it was not just above the law, but beyond the law.

McCain following that would be disasterous, but, at this point, not shocking.

i may end up in Canada yet, working on my brother's farm.
 
260sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 11:46
might need to ask if he could use an older hand. Another 4 yrs of this BS Republican "the law IS, what I SAY it is*.....and I fear for the continued viability of this nation.
 
261boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 12:49
You are saying that the rule of law should be arbitrary--that we should aspire to China-like adherance to our own laws? No I am saying that adherence to law does not make or break an empire. Just Andrew Jackson he had little no reguard to the law at times and he is on the $20 bill.
 
262boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 12:53
Canada probably would be a smart place to go, they have allot of things going for them right now though, adherence to law is not near the top.
 
263J-Bar
      ID: 34742413
      Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 14:48
I guess i am not racist enough, i only took the celebrity angle from the ad the first time i saw it and that the 2 women used were to show that just because you have celebrity doesn't make you a good person and/or good candidate. but alas i guess there is a racist angle in every word that will be spoken from now until Jan 09.
 
264walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 08:07
NYT, Dowd: McCain Taking Low Road

It's harsh, and biased towards Obama (natch), but (natch), I agree. It's seemingly the only recourse McCain has since he has so little substance to discuss, and so little capability to discuss, period.
 
265Perm Dude
      ID: 4574767
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 13:26
This is the kind of thing I'd like to see more of. Going into the election, I had hoped that McCain's straight-talk would help move along issues-based campaigning on both sides, forcing them to come up with good ideas while being upfront about the policies in the past which haven't worked.

McCain, speaking in Iowa, slamming the Farm Bill. You gotta love it. More please.
 
266biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 13:38
Turns out there is an actual attack ad where McCain put Obama on a hundy. (Also on Mt. Rushmore and the Statue of Liberty)And then he as the gall to howl "race card" when Obama mentions it. Where was the press in this? Stupid liberal press giving themselves back aches trying to be "balanced" and missing the story.

 
267boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 14:17
I think i was persuaded to vote for Obama more after watch the commercial. i am not really sure why he is upset about the ad. i mean he is for change.
 
268biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 14:30
You seem to be intentionally missing the point, boikin.

McCain photoshops Obama onto a hundy, in order to sway a certain segment of our population who might care that Obama doesn't look like post presidents.

Obama simply summarizes the attack ad.

McCain accuses him of playing the race card; the opportunity to accuse appears to be the main point of running the ad.

That said, I think among the more enlightened voter (such as you, it seems), the strategy might look alot like this:



 
269Perm Dude
      ID: 4574767
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 14:32
He's not upset about the ad at all. McCain is upset that Obama "played the race card" (whatever that means) when Obama recently mentioned that "he's not like those other men on the dollar bill."

I pointed this out in #250.
 
270boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 15:26
whups i misread post #266, i thought it was saying something else. i think this just more evidence that McCain campaign is being run pretty badly.

was this add released on TV or just on web?
 
271sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 16:00
now on that point boikin, we're gonna agree entirely. McCains campaign is being run about as ineptly as I'd expect it would be, if it were being run by a HS Sr whose only experience was running for Prom King.
 
272boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 16:16
I am not sure i would give them that much credit, I would be surprised to see anyone say they are even doing an OK job.
 
273Perm Dude
      ID: 4574767
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 16:22
I'm liking this Paris Hilton response.
 
274sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 16:33
re 272 lol, OK...whose only experience was running for Prom King, and losing.

:)
 
275Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 23:11
 
276walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 15:55
Sullivan: Age Issue

On the one side is the Age in Employment Discrimination Act type thinking, and on the other is what I feel is a bit of common sense. Given all of the other restrictions placed on over age 60, over 70, folks, being President at age 73 does seem like an issue worth discussing. It's a pretty intense job.
 
277Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 16:00
It definitely shouldn't be taboo to talk about.
 
278biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Fri, Aug 08, 2008, 13:20
 
279Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 08:38
If you want to convince people you have seen the light on drill now, and you really mean it when you say you are pro-life, you respect women and Hillary wasn't the only oportunity for an historic vote for a woman at the top, you could pick this running mate...




Photogenic as the day is long.

Begs the question, who is 'the real John McCain' but I thot I'd put it in this thread anyway.
 
280Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 08:52
If only he had picked her early I could see his wife and her dueling it out at Sturgis...


Sarah Palin


Cindy McCain

There would be a campaign first they'd never forget.
 
281Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 08:54
“I told her with a little luck, she could be the only woman ever to serve as both the first lady and Miss Buffalo Chip.” - John McCain

There's always next year.
 
282Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 10:04
it's always creepy to watch as Baldwin gets a boner over "hot" conservative women.
 
283Seward Norse
      ID: 58082219
      Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 17:04
Most of my family lives in Alaska, and they absolutely love Sarah Palin. She's very popular up there. I'd feel a lot better with McCain if Palin was there with him.
 
284Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 12:51
Just how out of touch is McCain?

Days after he cracked that being rich in the U.S. meant earning at least $5 million a year, Republican presidential candidate John McCain acknowledged that he wasn't sure how many houses he and his wealthy wife actually own.

"I think — I'll have my staff get to you," McCain responded to a question posed by Politico, according to a story Thursday on the publication's Web site. "It's condominiums where — I'll have them get to you."


responded the future president:
Campaigning in Chester, Va., (Barack) Obama told voters, "I guess if you think being rich means you've got to make $5 million and if you don't know how many houses you have, it's not surprising you might think the economy is fundamentally strong."
 
285Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 14:20
Days after he cracked that being rich in the U.S. meant earning at least $5 million a year

That is so far out of context from what McCain said in the Rick Warren interview that it's ridiculous and anyone who watched it knows it. I watched that whole thing (both candidates) and you'd need to see how he said it.
 
286Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 15:16
what boxman said is out of contect:
Days after he cracked that being rich in the U.S. meant earning at least $5 million a year

What McCain said:
In a forum last week with the Rev. Rick Warren, McCain was asked to define the word "rich" and to give a figure. After promoting his tax policies, McCain said: "I think if you are just talking about income, how about $5 million?" The audience laughed, and he added: "But seriously, I don't think you can — I don't think seriously that — the point is that I'm trying to make here, seriously — and I'm sure that comment will be distorted — but the point is that we want to keep people's taxes low and increase revenues."

i don't think that's out of context at all.

the statement simply points out the facts - that McCain cracked a joke saying that being rich meant earning at least $5 million a year.

and that is EXACTLY what he did. he made a joke. an ill-advised one, because laughing about something like that when so many of us are struggling, isn't really bright.
 
287J-Bar
      ID: 537371912
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 16:03
I think Obama made mention of $25 million so i guess he is 5 times less bright than McCain, by Tree's standards. LMAO
 
288Tree
      ID: 36782116
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 17:14
nope. you don't get away with that one without sourcing it.

show me where Obama said that.

maybe you're confused with the 25 million bucks Obama raised in funds in ONE DAY in June, but i'd love to see your source for your above statement.
 
289biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 17:29
Asked the same question earlier in the night, Obama joked that it was book sales of 25 million referring to Warren’s bestselling books. He then declined to give an exact number saying that it depends where one lives but that $250,000 a year means “you are doing well.â€
link

J-Bar killed 7 with 1 blow.
 
290Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 18:38
J-Bar: Post of the year.
 
291biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 18:45
Your standards are either a step below White Castle, or your sarcasm is as dry as burnt toast.
 
292Tree
      ID: 36782116
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 19:01
WTF does post 290 even mean?

a post that was factually incorrect is the post of the year??

well, or, as bili said, good sarcasm on your part.
 
293Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 19:21
He defeated your moronism with his own.
 
294Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 19:35
Obama joked that it was book sales of 25 million

J-Bar looks vindicated to me.
 
295Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 19:59
Actually I retract #293. That came out wrong although Tree is still a moron.

What I meant was that J-Bar used Tree's own idiocy against him. Still "Post Of The Year".
 
296Tree
      ID: 36782116
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 21:47
boxman - post 290, 293, and 295 pretty much combine to be among the most entertaining posts this board has ever seen.

let's summarize:

post 290 - giving someone props for "schooling" me, despite having absolutely false and incorrect information.

post 293 - calling the guy you just praised a moron.

post 295 - trying to wrangle out of it with yet another lame, direct insult.

i don't need to call you any names here, or mock your intelligence level - you did a fine job of it all by your lonesome.
 
297J-Bar
      ID: 537371912
      Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 22:35
Tree, here is the link, there is 6 pages. Change the page number and it will take you through both interviews. 25 mil, 150k, 250k, depends on your housing market
 
298Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 09:32
To the extent there is substance behind this discussion of who is rich illustrates the innumeracy of the American people. Being rich has nothing to do with your income, it has everything to do with the quantity of assets you control.

A doctor who goes $250k in debt and forgoes 10 years of her working life and then earns $100k per year as a PCP in an impoverished area of the country may be required to live a quite modest lifestyle. A US senator earning almost $200k but married to an uber-wealthy beer magnate may be incredibly rich.

From their answers, you can tell that both McCain and Obama understand this, but that they both struggled with how to express it. Unfortunately, Obama caved at the end, offering a lame "you're doing well" comment for those earning $250k per year. You just don't know that.

Cash flows (income) simply are not stocks (wealth), and comparing the two is dishonest.
 
299Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 10:34
Madman - obviously, you have a point.

but the reality is that the American public doesn't look at things like that. for a lot of people, if they know someone who is making 100K, that person is doing well, by the standards most people are used to.

McCain's whole debacle about the number of houses he owns reminds me of something Ted Turner once said - "Every few seconds it changes - up an eighth, down an eighth -it's like playing a slot machine. I lose $20 million, I gain $20 million."

most Americans can't even conceptualize it. if someone is losing 20 million bucks, they're rich by the standards of most. just like someone owning seven homes. it's just not something most of us can grasp.

if someone is earning 250K, to me, they're doing well, regardless of debt load, or anything else.

to use another quote from Ted Turner, "Money is how we keep score."
 
300Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 11:19
In most cases, it's much easier to shed debt for people with large incomes than it is for someone with a small income. How many people making $250,000 do you know living in squalor? Get a smaller house, get a smaller car, go out to eat less. People who make over $100,000 but are in major debt are either in temporary circumstances, were a victim of extreme misfortune or made some very poor financial decisions.

Either way, I don't find anything objectionable about Obama's answer. People who make $250,000 a year are either doing pretty well, should be or will be.
 
301Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 12:15
Razor: If life has taught me one thing it is that wealth is created by managing expenses moreso than income. We have friends who are gov't employees and never made more than a middle class income, but I'll guarentee you that come retirement they won't have a thing to worry about because they manage their expenses and roll those savings into generating secondary income. We also have friends who have a much higher income but couldn't dream of spending 5k RIGHT NOW on an emergency if they had to because they piss it away on Beemers, timeshares, and other useless bvlls#it.

To me, rich is measured by the ease or difficulty to which you can get the things you need or want. It really has nothing to do with income if you think it through. With my friends that I mentioned above, the gov't employees with the middle class income are richer because if they decided today to go to Hawaii for two weeks, I guarentee you they could afford it and pay cash for the whole thing. I'm not so confident about my other friends.

Who is richer? The factory worker who can pay the plumber in cash or check when something needs to be fixed or a brain surgeon who has to charge it because he doesn't have the funds.
 
302Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:03
To futher cloud the issue just for fun...

You are only rich if you have riches stored up in heaven where moth and rust do not consume.

You are only rich if you are content with what you have.

But for the purposes of this board I think the point is where the tax code decides you are rich.
 
303Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:12
What an inane argument. Of course there are people at every level who outspend their income, but there are far more brain surgeons able to pay any bill that comes their way than fast food employees. Wealth and income are not the same thing, but does it even need to be explained that they are linked? Is this a point that needs 5 posts dedicated to it? Is this a point that the American people don't understand? Perhaps not since I see you are mistaking wealth with liquidity. Just because one's wealth is in less liquid access does not make them less wealthy.
 
304Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:24
Perception on this point is extremely muddled. The majority of poor people in America will tell you that they are middle class.

I can't even think of an objective point where you would become rich. Independently wealthy? The point when you can walk away from work forever?
 
305Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:29
You are only rich if you have riches stored up in heaven where moth and rust do not consume.

OK, so Boldwin brings up an excellent point. I do concede to that. What we amass here in 70 years means nothing to what we have for eternity; more than fair point.

But for the purposes of this board I think the point is where the tax code decides you are rich.

Aha! And I think that's where Razor and I differ. He sees the top line number. How much a person brings in. I look at household profit instead.

I know the tax code could give two hoots about your profit, but from a pure financial discussion on who is richer I judge based on profits.

 
306Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:30
I can't even think of an objective point where you would become rich. Independently wealthy? The point when you can walk away from work forever?

That's because it doesn't exist. Some people like their jobs so they wouldn't even factor that in.
 
307Boldwin
      ID: 176322815
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:36
Ten abodes worth 13 mil.
 
308Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:50
Perception on this point is extremely muddled. The majority of poor people in America will tell you that they are middle class.

i'm not so sure i agree with that. part of the problem is that our government's view of the "poverty line" is absurd.

You are only rich if you have riches stored up in heaven where moth and rust do not consume.

OK, so Boldwin brings up an excellent point. I do concede to that. What we amass here in 70 years means nothing to what we have for eternity; more than fair point.


again, that's a totally different argument, and beyond absurd. go give that speech to the bank who hold your mortgage or finances your car. Tell that to the utility company who gives you electricity, telephone, and the internet.

this argument isn't about religion, yet, somehow, you're trying to insert it in.

I can't even think of an objective point where you would become rich.

when you can afford not only everything you need, but everything you WANT.

 
309Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 13:59
again, that's a totally different argument, and beyond absurd. go give that speech to the bank who hold your mortgage or finances your car. Tell that to the utility company who gives you electricity, telephone, and the internet.

Boldwin openly admitted it was a side bar comment. Read much?
 
310Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 14:34
Razor 300 -- Either way, I don't find anything objectionable about Obama's answer. People who make $250,000 a year are either doing pretty well, should be or will be. Think of a self-employed entrepeneur who goes bankrupt 4 times in his life, but in the meantime has a few years here and there where he earns $500k ... is he rich? You simply can't say that someone like that "should" be doing this or that.

Or the oncologist who augments his practice as a fiscal intermediary for specialty drugs ... average take-home pay of $360k, but exposed to significant financial risks if her patients can't pony up the coinsurance costs?

More critically, why is it important to have the government create a one-size fits all definition for "rich"? What's wrong with a simple fairness rule like: the feds can take up to 1/3 of your marginal income?

Why do we support politicians who fan the flames of envy?

On a related note, why do we support politicians who spend more money advertising how many condos their opponent owns than advertising their strategies to rescue us from our self-inflicted housing crisis?
 
311tastethewaste
      ID: 1711227
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 14:52
More critically, why is it important to have the government create a one-size fits all definition for "rich"? What's wrong with a simple fairness rule like: the feds can take up to 1/3 of your marginal income?

Why do we support politicians who fan the flames of envy?


whst are you talking about? some rev. asks mccain and obama to define rich and put a figure on it. so they answer the question, one joking 5 mill a year and then not answering the question and the other making a joke and then answering 250K. how is this the govts fault?

I can see it now,

Question: Sen Obama, how would you define rich and put a figure on it.

Answer: I think we should take 1/3 of everyone's marginal income...

cricket cricket..cue rolling tumbleweed
 
312tastethewaste
      ID: 1711227
      Fri, Aug 22, 2008, 14:57
or better yet,

Senator Obama/Mccain, define rich and put a figure on it.

Hmm, well, i mean its like this. There are some people who are good at spending money and saving money. Some people may not make a lot of money but have a lot of liquid. Some people, umm, you know like business owners, well you see, they may make more money but ummm, you know, well its not as accessible. And some people work for corporations, and ummm, have better retirement plans so they may not be making a lot now, but maybe, ummm, you know if they play their cards right, (tapering off), and then you know rich is all just a state of mind, and when we die, you know, we are all sort of rich..right? so i guess if i had to put a figure on it...i guess i would say...God? Is that a figure?
 
313Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:00
McCain decides experience really doesn't matter?
 
314Razor
      ID: 16752410
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:16
Guess McCain is out to get that large female bloc of swing voters. Are they really going to go for someone that is anti-abortion?
 
315Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:52
Really good choice. I'm stunned.
 
316Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:57
Wow, Geraldine Ferraro all over again. Makes for a nice footnote.
 
317Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:10
If he is out to split off the disgruntled Hillary voters who are bound and detirmined to make an historic vote for a woman, he couldn't pick better.

If he is out to pick an actual conservative who will appease conservatives and yet be so unknown as to not scare the centrists*cough*liberals*/cough* the NYT have been promising him by compromising with and pandering to the media...then he could not have done better than Palin.

It's funny because I had been hearing it's Pawlenty of Minn most recently.
 
318bilk
      ID: 367402418
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:31
this is an insult to all qualified rep women out there. Unserious,
to use klieman's word.

 
319biliruben
      ID: 367402418
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:35
I'm bilk, btw. Practicing on my iffy one, while waiting on my car.
I need it!
 
320Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:44
Because governors are already in the next highest executive offices in the land they hardly make unserious choices to backup the highest one. Most presidents come from their ranks for this reason and they usually get that reaction from the nation at large. "Who? I never heard of him." Think Clinton.
 
321Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:12
A brilliant symbolic piece. A crappy practical one:

-This choice seriously undercuts McCain's "experience" argument. While he is practically begging the Dems to take the bait and point this out (so he can reflect this argument back on Obama), he can't have it both ways and there will be plenty of opportunities for the Dems to point this out without resorting to a plain old "inexperienced" tag. I predict that the Dems will focus on questioning her never-before-heard opinions on the areas Biden is strongest: Foreign policy. And Biden will lead that charge.

-Might as well mail it in for the VP debates;

-Alaska is hardly in doubt for the Republicans--this piece has little additional regional appeal;

-as a former chairman for the state's Oil and Gas Commission, this pick seems to have the same sort of oil background that we've been trying to parse out from the current administration.
 
322Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:15
BTW, I think this pick helps Obama out in the end, precisely because Obama is focusing on an issues-candidacy (in which she will lose) and McCain is focusing on a symbolic-candidacy (for which this is a great pick, but ultimately as vacuous as the "celebrity" ads McCain was running).
 
323Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:19
Alaska is hardly in doubt for the Republicans--this piece has little additional regional appeal;

The exact same thing could be said about Delaware.
 
324biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:26
Governor of Alaska, population-wise, means essentially that she was the mayor of Everett for a year and half. And her education - what, a minor in politics with a BA in journalism? WTF? She's clueless enough that she can't even see through the intelligent design charade.

At least she can race a mean snowmobile. That here serve her well when McCain drops dead and she has to stare down the evil Ruskies, as they march into Warsaw giggling.
 
325Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:29
PV: Right. But Biden wasn't picked for regional appeal. Biden was picked for his foreign policy heft.

Palin appears to have been picked for symbolic reasons. Certainly not the kind of thing women have been fighting for.
 
326Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:33
Bili, please...you think for one second the Russians in Georgia are worried about an Obama presidency?
 
327biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:37
They should be. I suspect he'll be looking for a good reason to engage militarily. Probably will come in with too much of a hair-trigger.
 
328biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:41
Anybody got any picks from the swimsuit competition when she was runner-up for miss Alaska?
 
329biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:46
 
330Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:48
How do you arrive at that hillarious conclusion, Bili?
 
331biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:50
He'll be out to prove himself, unfortunately. He can't take a chance on coming off as weak, so he'll overreact to the first possible foreign engagement.
 
332biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:52
This is McCain and the Beauty Queen's thread, anyway. Can you respond in any other way than be deflect and attack?
 
333Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:27
Already getting ridiculous
 
334Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:29
Ok, that was funny.
 
335biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 20:12
Sheet. She's a Vandal. I know who my Dad's gonna vote for now.
 
336nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Sat, Aug 30, 2008, 05:28


I look at the VP choice and I can't help but wonder if McCain is suppose to lose.

I'm really scratching my head on this one.

 
337Tree
      ID: 507453018
      Sat, Aug 30, 2008, 19:52
If he is out to split off the disgruntled Hillary voters who are bound and detirmined to make an historic vote for a woman, he couldn't pick better.

seriously? an anti-choice woman - even in cases of incest and rape - a replacement for Clinton from a historical perspective???

any Clinton woman who would vote for mccain Palin deserves to have her uterus ripped out in the botched back alley hanger abortion Palen will work hard to make a reality again.
 
338Tree
      ID: 507453018
      Sat, Aug 30, 2008, 19:56
Just a heartbeat away from being a PILF!
 
339nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Sun, Aug 31, 2008, 08:03


Baldwin: Because governors are already in the next highest executive offices in the land they hardly make unserious choices to backup the highest one. Most presidents come from their ranks for this reason and they usually get that reaction from the nation at large. "Who? I never heard of him." Think Clinton.

She has been governor (of Alaska for god sakes is that even part of the USA? 8-] ) for less then 2 years. Before that a small town Mayor and city council member, finally a stint on the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission for 2 years.

She has a Bachelors degree from the University of Idaho.

Clinton on the other hand has a bachelors degree from Georgetown Univ., attended Oxford Univ. as a Rhodes scholar, and received a law degree from Yale Univ.

He was a lawyer and law professor.

He was the Arkansas Attorney General.

He served as Governor 3 - 2 year terms.

Finally he headed the centrist Democratic Leadership Council from 1990 to 1991.

Now you are going to compare those two resumes with a straight face?

I mean you hate Clinton but that is a much stronger resume then Palin's.

Your posts have gotten easier and easier to tear apart.



 
340walk
      ID: 217541319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 09:12
NYT, Krugman: Gustav and Politics and McCain
 
341walk
      ID: 217541319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 09:17
NYT Editorial on what McCain needs to do to Win
 
342Tree
      ID: 427413118
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 10:46
if true, this is a mind blower...from Kos...

The revelation that had been whispered among the Alaskan legislature was explosive. Sarah Palin is not the mother of Trig Palin. Her daughter is the mother.

obviously, i'll wait to see if it makes more mainstream rounds, but even the whispers...whoa...
 
343Baldwin
      ID: 2583316
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 10:46
Nerve

I wasn't comparing resumes tho that is an interesting and useful comparison for the board to make.

I was just pointing out that people are constantly surprised by these unheard of governors popping their heads up every presidential campaign and it's surprising how many of them win out over much better known national figures, senators, ex-VP's and sitting VP's and sitting presidents for that matter. The reason being that the governor position is the most natural training ground for head executive and the media doesn't keep us up to date with all 50 governors for various reasons.

Truth be told all politicians nominated for such high positions are really forced on the people because they are unusually corruptible, already corrupted or easily blackmailed.
 
344Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 12:19
#342

If McCain's vetting process is so bad as to allow something like this to fall through the cracks, then his career is over, hers is over, and the Republican Party will need years to recover.

About the only negative presented so far about Palin is questioning her judgement in hopping a plane for a 4,000 mile flight after going into labor. But this is just too weird.
 
345bibA
      Leader
      ID: 261028117
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 13:24
What would the driving motivation be causing Palin to want to take credit for being the mother instead of the grandmother? I just don't see why she would do this for political incentives. If she did it due to private, family reasons alone, I would feel bad for her, but would not think worse of her.
 
346Baldwin
      ID: 2583316
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 14:15
bibA - exactly.

A variation on the 'extended vacation'. Another less discussed way these issues used to get swept under the carpet back before unwed mothers were celebrated, I guess.

Surely a guy as above the dirty side of politics as BHO claims to be will steer his campaign away from that subject. A fine test of that theory anyway.
 
347biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 15:33
I think he passed the test.

Mr. Obama, in his first remarks on the matter, raised his voiced when asked whether his campaign or other Democratic operatives were working to advance rumors surrounding the Palin family.

“Our people were not involved in any way in this and they will not be,” Mr. Obama snapped. “And if I ever thought there was somebody in my campaign that was involved in something like that, they’d be fired, OK?”

Mr. Obama said the pregnancy “has no relevance to Governor Palin’s performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president.” He added that, “my mother had me when she was 18. How family deals with issues and teen-age children – that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics.”

“So,” he added, “I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.”


NYT
 
348Tree
      ID: 46816116
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 17:55
Bili - the right wing will paint you as believing Obama is messianic, since you are praising him for doing the right thing.
 
349Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 18:50
This reeks of poor judgment to me ... JustOneMinute ... actuarial discussion here ... I wish Democrats were more concerned about the substance of what Palin has done rather than some perverse interest in their 17 year-old's sex life ...

As to the bulk of the Palin appointment, outside the actuarial disagreement that I bet most people won't care about, I agree with Cost ... here ... It will come down to her poise under fire.
 
350Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 19:34
WOW. The complaint that Palin pursued on a contingency basis because she couldn't get funding from the legislature ...

After reading (quickly) the bulk of the complaint, I hereby retract any criticism of Palin for this one. Actually, I give her kudos. My initial reaction was based on an impression that Mercer was a professional firm and unlikely to have done material errors; this impression was reinforced by the previously linked discussion in an actuarial forum. Lastly, many public plans totally misunderstand the uncertain nature of the projections and over-promise benefits as a result.

As a healthcare actuary, however, I entirely agree with the plaintiffs' concerns (i.e., the State of Alaska and Palin) about the healthcare calculations performed by Mercer. The Milliman analysis mentioned in the complaint seems much more reasonable to me.

This is not an official statement of opinion, and shouldn't be used for anything other than casual conversation. I also am a bit skeptical about damages here; the liability is the liability, even if the Mercer actuaries screwed up calculating it ... it will be interesting to see how this one gets settled. But on the merits, I simply can't believe that the Mercer actuaries assumed some of the things they assumed.

As far as I'm concerned, however, this suit is just another piece of evidence reinforcing her "Barracuda" persona. I'm still worried that such a personality can get out of control and is a bit of a wildcard "maverick" sort of thing ... but sometimes, like this one, that sort of avidness is useful.

Return to your regularly scheduled thread ...
 
351walk
      ID: 217541319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 20:00
Word, bili. I read that and was also going to post and see you got it in here...Obama making it very clear that there should not be any discussion about candidates' families.
 
352walk
      ID: 217541319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 20:02
HuffPost: Palin Hires Lawyer for Troopergate

This will be problematic until this investigation is over (if she is in the clear).
 
353Tree
      ID: 46816116
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 20:22
I wish Democrats were more concerned about the substance of what Palin has done rather than some perverse interest in their 17 year-old's sex life ...

kind of like how Republicans are more concerned with middle names, former pastors, and spreading lies about religious beliefs, instead of the substance of what Obama has done?
 
354Perm Dude
      ID: 577243010
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 20:41
I'm concerned about her non-substance, frankly. While I'm sure she is a fine person and mother, she's an awful pick and seemingly unvetted.
 
355walk
      ID: 217541319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 21:07
Right. I cannot see how the republicans who have been interviewed about Palin can respond with a straight face about her credentials for VP. It's best described by Jon Stewart.

Palin Humor
 
356Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 21:33
I'm concerned about her non-substance, frankly. While I'm sure she is a fine person and mother, she's an awful pick and seemingly unvetted.

(a) Consider Obama's track record. So far, he has two sets of executive experiences. First, he has his years as chairman of the Board of the Annenberg Challenge, Bill Ayer's attempts to help reform education in Chicago. Despite hundreds of millions of grants doled out, it was a failure.

Secondly, we have Obama's campaigns. Unfortunately, as Obama himself claims his staff is repeatedly out of control. The latest instance is the Obama campaign press release on Palin last Saturday, which Obama had to retract within hours, blaming, as usual, his staff. The first known instance is when a staffer apparently forged his handwriting on a questionaire back in 1996 about handgun legislation. Time after time after time, Obama's staff has come forward with errors that Obama must correct. I'd sorry for the poor guy except for the fact that he's responsible for hiring and managing his staff.

Lastly, we also saw Obama personally vouch for his 20 year pastor ... within weeks, Obama had to retract that judgment. Obama put his judgment on the line, and it backfired bigtime.

(B) with respect to Palin, I'm agnostic on her qualities. I think we'll get to see that over the next 60 days. She balances the ticket rather than reinforces foreign policy experience of the top. But your assertion that she was unvetted is unwarranted. The teenage pregnancy was known prior to the pick. It was public knowledge in Wasilla, there was no "secret" about it. The rest of the stories have been just that, stories. I haven't seen any evidence of a failed vetting, just an over-estimation of the maturity of the American public, or at least the media.
 
357walk
      ID: 217541319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 21:34
NYT, Palin Bristol Pregnancy Helps McCain

Interesting diatribe, for what this story is worth. Comment #16 is of interest as an Anchorage person says it's old news that folks have been speculating about the parenthood of the infant born in April to Sarah Palin.

I do not find it interesting that many right wing commenters are up in arms about the alleged liberal discussion of Palin and her family yet openly mock(ed) Obama about his heritage, religion and even his names. Please.
 
358walk
      ID: 217541319
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 21:42
I cannot agree, Madman. McCain barely met her or knew her...that seems pretty unusual to me for such a selection. It's like hiring someone based on their (rather light) resume. Not vetted.

Obama and Rev Wright, eh? Still consumed with that one? We went through that...I think you have no idea what that church is like, was like, and how important it was for Obama's life...and then he had to do what he did, reluctantly, cos Wright became way too outspoken.

Obama has a biiiig staff, and there's no way for you to assume that cynically his staff is supposed to say one thing while Obama retracts afterwards. However, compared to the mud the Rovians have flung in this election and in other elections, I have few problems with what his staff has done. The Dems are mild in comparison the Republicans, and the "unfortunate" situation is that this somehow seems to help determine who wins...who slings the mud the most ferociously. I hope we can win without having to stoop to the lows of the Republicans...a win-win. The difference, as Obama says, is that his campaign should never throw the first nasty punch, be react very strongly when smeared.
 
359Tree
      ID: 46816116
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 21:50
wow. i was actually half joking with post 353, but obviously Madman's post shortly after shows the hypocrisy of his own 349.

somehow, Obama's FORMER pastor is relative, but Palin's daughter's pregnancy isn't.

tell you what madman - neither are terribly relative, but it sure seems like the right is going to hammer home its own irrelevant points about Obama, all the while coming down on the left if it does the same to Palin.

typical for the Cult of Rove.
 
360Perm Dude
      ID: 577243010
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 22:04
But your assertion that she was unvetted is unwarranted

So you are saying McCain picked her knowing that she is under investigation for abuse of power by two different bodies (a report of which is due a few days before the election)?

You're willing to give Palin 60 days to firm things up and clarify on trifling things like foreign policy but not Obama on his pastor (or anything else you think is "important?)?

Trying to parse out "executive" experience without mentioning the current criminal investigations against Palin is really short-sighted for you, Madman. Considering Palin has virtually no executive experience and her foreign policy opinions are, at best, short of the mark (which Gingrich would call "authentic" whatever that means--I suspect he means "uninformed" as some sort of compliment).

I don't really care so much Palin's actual war position, but if you can find a fully-formed, fact-based opinion on the War in Iraq dated before her nomination I'll give you $20.
 
361Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 22:30
I know I'm not going to be voting for McCain because his Vice-President's daughter is pregnant.

 
362nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 01:58


Is it too much to ask that we ignore the daughter's pregnancy? Or will we get sucked into the presses love of all things lurid?

Who cares? Her 17 year old daughter got knocked up, happens to the best of them. What does Palin's daughter's promiscuity have to do with her ability to be President. I have far greater questions about her qualifications then that.

Madman I wish Democrats were more concerned about the substance of what Palin has done rather than some perverse interest in their 17 year-old's sex life ...

Is it the Democrats Madman or the usual suspects the press? What "Democrats" have you seen focusing on the daughters pregnancy? Can you give us names?

I would hope the average Dem pol would be smart enough not to get sucked into that issue...oh wait, smart and pol in the same sentence.






 
363walk
      ID: 9857121
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 06:31
NYT: Palin Vetting (or lackthereof)
 
364Tree
      ID: 685125
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 07:00
similar article from Yahoo/AP...

i think *this* is the more relative issue than the daughter's pregnancy. that's peripheral. the bigger issue is the seeming lack of research into the choice of Palin.

yes, some of the issues are related to those around her (her daughter's pregnancy, her husbands DUI arrest), and some more related to her (the ethics investigation), but are these things you really want swirling around within DAYS of the nomination?
 
365Perm Dude
      ID: 1381628
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 09:16
I think it needs to be stressed, before Democrats start taking hits for picking on "authentic" Palin, that this all reflects upon McCain and his judgement rather than Palin.
 
366Perm Dude
      ID: 1381628
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 09:18
I posted the above, then read that Josh Marshall made the same exact point on TPM. Gotta get that guy out of my brain...
 
367Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 09:19
Actually I'm waiting for the neutral New York Times to endorse a candidate, so I'll know who to vote for.
 
368Perm Dude
      ID: 1381628
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 09:26
Stupid/funny image I found on TPM:



 
369Perm Dude
      ID: 1381628
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 09:28
B7: If the NYT is liberally-biased, it already reflects the voting tendency of liberals.

Besides, very few people are influenced by newspaper endorsements anyway, and the recounting of who endorsed (and how many papers) near the end of campaigns is as relative to the election as medal counts are to the Olympic spirit.

 
370Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 09:42
So you are saying McCain picked her knowing that she is under investigation for abuse of power by two different bodies (a report of which is due a few days before the election)? Yes, this was widely discussed prior to Friday; if McCain didn't know about it, his head was in a deep hole. Heck, I knew about it ahead of time.

You're willing to give Palin 60 days to firm things up and clarify on trifling things like foreign policy but not Obama on his pastor (or anything else you think is "important?)? To clarify... I want to see how she comports herself over the next 60 days. We'll find out whether she has given considerable thought to these things prior to the nomination by how she acts over the next two months. You don't just magically create fluency on those issues in that short of a time frame. If she's an uninformed airhead, I trust we'll find that out shortly.

Obama had 20 years to learn about Jeremiah Wright, and he personally vouched for him on national TV, revealing his judgment (compounded by his many failed hirings, as noted previously). He also entirely misread the "surge" and the dynamics within Iraq (I did too, but I'm not running for Pres), and then picked a Veep to piss off the Iraqis (let's have the big old USA come in and arbitrarily split up your country, you won't object, will you?)

Plus, Palin balances the GOP ticket, presumably bringing strength on domestic issues and the energy/economy/environment nexus (see her recent CNBC interview). McCain needed that help and she could be a forceful advocate for positions I strongly support on those issues.

I wouldn't vote for Palin for President no matter what she says over the next 60 days, or how she comports herself. It is very likely, however, that I won't have to. I view the likelihood of McCain becoming incapacitated by age 74 as small enough a risk to be irrelevant.

Regarding the Iraq war, as far as I can tell, she didn't have a fully formed opinion that she shared ... I doubt she was too much opposed, with her son volunteering to serve ... I don't see anything particularly wrong with the dearth of hard positions on that subject and I suspect you'd find that a lot with the newer generation Republicans; it's better than a candidate who gives an anti-war speech in 2002, then backs the administration's failed tactics in 2004, argues against the concept of a timeline for withdrawal also in 2004, then argues for complete withdrawal by 2008, and yet again against the change in tactics in 2007 not because of an inherent danger of running an open-source counter-terrorism operation (which is something that still concerns me, BTW), but because of some weird and out-of-touch idea that more US troops would bring more violence. A candidate who can keep her mouth shut on issues that she isn't privy to inside information on would be a welcome contrast to that sort of confusion.

Her husband also doesn't have a bio up on the McCain website, and her bio is particularly weak (just her speech from Friday). Bizarre, but not risible to the level of evidence as opposed to political tactics which I find annoying.

Nerve362 -- The DailyKos posters who tried to break the even more bizarre notion that she was covering for her daughter by faking her own pregnancy ... Andrew Sullivan has had a very curious interest in this (basically a Dem now) ... more critically, rather than investigating or debating the substance of Palin's various positions over the years, the argument has zoomed immediately to a crude personal approach, and this is true of almost all Dems I've talked with ... Probably effective, but it's rather ugly ... which may be one reason the McCain camp has approached the nomination this way, setting up a Palin pivot Wednesday. It definitely heightens the scrutiny she'll face then.

BTW, Obama's statement on the matter was perfectly pitched ... hopefully none of the relevant Kos writers are attached to his campaign ...
 
371Perm Dude
      ID: 1381628
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 09:54
I think, on the Wright matter, that you've glossed over the change in Wright during the campaign and that, in the end, Obama did the right thing.

In fact, this campaign, in a nutshell, is not about who has the temperment, intelligence, and judgement never to make mistakes. It is about what a person does when a mistake is made (either by them, or on their behalf).

Half of our current problems (or more) have been caused by an Administration who refuses to admit mistakes--compounding earlier mistakes by continuing onward along the same paths. Obama, by and large, has done the right thing when mistakes have occurred.

Your view of Obama's views on the war is Limbaugh-like twisted, Madman. There is a huge difference between supporting the war (which he did not) and criticizing war tactics as effective or not. And a policy of basing his war policy upon conditions on the ground might make his seem flighty as those conditions change, but we've seem how stupid a top-down inflexible war policy works, haven't we? You need to get off the gotcha crack, Madman.

We're seeing what McCain does as mistakes are revealed on his side. And it is very Bush-like so far.
 
372Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 10:12
I think it needs to be stressed, before Democrats start taking hits for picking on "authentic" Palin, that this all reflects upon McCain and his judgement rather than Palin.

obviously (well, maybe not, with some of the posters here).

it's pretty clear that this an issue of "why exactly did he pick her?", especially after only one in-person meeting.

Plus, Palin balances the GOP ticket, presumably bringing strength on domestic issues and the energy/economy/environment nexus (see her recent CNBC interview). McCain needed that help and she could be a forceful advocate for positions I strongly support on those issues.

Palin balances the GOP ticket? how? by bringing inexperience to the campaign of a very inexperienced senator, who, apparently, isn't doing real great on the decision making front?
 
373Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 10:15
you've glossed over the change in Wright during the campaign and that, in the end, Obama did the right thing. Why didn't Obama consider the possibility that Wright may have suddenly changed? When you vouch for someone, you have to take that into consideration.

Obama, by and large, has done the right thing when mistakes have occurred. Obama hasn't made any mistakes, so we still don't know this yet. His staff has made a plethora of mistakes, but that's an entirely different matter.

We're seeing what McCain does as mistakes are revealed on his side. What mistakes are you referring to? He appears to have lost control of the spin cycle, that's true. Not sure what else you're referring to.
 
374Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 10:25
it's pretty clear that this an issue of "why exactly did he pick her?", especially after only one in-person meeting.
...
Palin balances the GOP ticket? how? by bringing inexperience to the campaign of a very inexperienced senator, who, apparently, isn't doing real great on the decision making front?


She brings credible government reform and energy expertise to the ticket. She was meant to bring focus to what McCain perceived to be the largest single domestic issue in this campaign: energy. She's stared down oil companies boosting royalty revenue for Alaskan resources (mistakenly represented in the press today as a windfall profits tax), re-energized the NG pipeline (the Obama campaign recently basked in the glory of one of her press releases on this issue), rooted out ethics problem within the government, etc.

It is true that McCain brings no executive experience. I suspect we're in for a bumpy administrative ride no matter who wins in November, since the Democrats don't have any successful experience, either.
 
375Perm Dude
      ID: 1381628
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 10:36
She was meant to bring focus to what McCain perceived to be the largest single domestic issue in this campaign: energy.

I think she was also intended to bring credible anti-corruption experience. She appears to have worked hard, in her limited time as governor, to root out corruption in the Alaska GOP.

She was also intended to demonstrate McCain's "maverickness" with an outside-the-box pick.

The biggest problem is that she blunts the criticism that McCain has against Obama. Obama was the member of an anti-American church? Palin's family belonged to the Alaska Independence Party--quote from the founder:

"I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."

Hilzoy with a list of problems for/with Palin.
 
376Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 10:42
and then picked a Veep to piss off the Iraqis (let's have the big old USA come in and arbitrarily split up your country, you won't object, will you?)

Piss off which Iraqis? Not the Shiite majority that has proposed that Southern Iraq be afforded the same autonomous designation as Dohak, Sulimaniya and Erbil provinces, and as provided in the Iraq constitution. Not the Kurds, who already enjoy such autonomous status. And if they ever get a split from oil profits outside of their own resource-deprived western and northern provinces, the Sunnis would be amenable to running their own affairs as well.

Arbitrarily split up the country? If they ever do have the provincial elections(consistently delayed mostly due o the Kirkuk issue), how many Sunnis and Kurds do you think will be elected from Basra?
Kurds and Shiites from Anbar? Shiites and Sunnis from Arbil?

Please define what you mean by arbitrary. Biden's proposal is not arbitrary, it realistically recognizes the dynamics in Iraq and allows for self-determination based on existing geographical, ethnic, cultural and religious realities.
 
377Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 10:51
Are you claiming that the Iraqi's aren't pissed off about Biden?


Reuters Senator Joe Biden may be one of the only U.S. politicians that can get Iraq's feuding Sunni, Shi'ite and Kurdish politicians to agree. But not in a good way.

Across racial and religious boundaries, Iraqi politicians on Saturday bemoaned Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama's choice of running mate, known in Iraq as the author of a 2006 plan to divide the country into ethnic and sectarian enclaves.

"This choice of Biden is disappointing, because he is the creator of the idea of dividing Iraq," Salih al-Mutlaq, head of National Dialogue, one of the main Sunni Arab blocs in parliament, told Reuters.

"We rejected his proposal when he announced it, and we still reject it. Dividing the communities and land in such a way would only lead to new fighting between people over resources and borders. Iraq cannot survive unless it is unified, and dividing it would keep the problems alive for a long time."


You can find plenty of references to this sort of thing ... I don't know the quality, but here's an example: Gulf News Dubai: Many Arabs were flabbergasted, and many others felt indifferent when they heard the news of Senator Barack Obama's picking Joe Biden as his running mate for next November presidential elections.

And does Biden's "gravitas" lend toward good judgment? No, his proposal was DOA ... good thing he wasn't in a position to do pursue it as policy ... In Baghdad, some Iraqi politicians expressed "frustration" with the pick of Biden, but many downplayed fears of Biden's propose to divide Iraq.

"There are no fears of division," Halim A'raji, head of Iraqi Association to Protect Journalists, said. "Iraq is a united country and nobody can divide it according to his ideologies, or thoughts, or political positions," he told Gulf News in an interview


As I said before, there are no experienced candidates in this election. Senators are blowhards and we're going to be in for a bumpy ride.
 
378Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 11:32
She brings credible government reform...

i wouldn't exactly call someone currently under investigation for ethics issues related to her office as "credible" in regards to government reform...

 
379Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 11:58
one of the main Sunni Arab blocs in parliament

Is this one of the main Sunni blocs that has consistently walked out of parliament in a unified Iraq?
Yes.

Sunni lawmakers walked out of Iraq's parliament Saturday, protesting what they called the house arrest of a prominent Sunni politician.

"The Iraqi government said that the security forces are there to protect al-Dulaimi's house, but now the Iraqi army is saying that al-Dulaimi is under house arrest," said Nada Mohammed Ibrahim, a member of parliament and the Sunni secular bloc, Iraqi National Dialogue Front.

Ibrahim said members of three Sunni blocs in parliament walked out: Iraqi National Dialogue Front, the secular Sunni bloc called Iraqi List, and al-Dulaimi's main Sunni bloc, National Accord Front.


But the Sunnis aren't the only ones who feel the need to walk out on parliament in protest in a united Iraq.

Kurdish lawmakers walked out of parliament Tuesday in protest over a vote on conditions for Iraq's provincial elections that called for ethnic groups to share power in Kirkuk, an oil-rich city that Kurds consider part of their territory.

The walkout, which included shouting and accusations of a conspiracy against Kurds, appeared to reduce the chances that the elections would be held this year. There is no law setting out election procedures.


U.S. and Iraqi officials have hoped that provincial balloting would ease tensions among the country's main ethnic and religious factions.

Although the measure Tuesday was passed by parliament through a secret ballot, it requires approval by the three-member presidential council, led by Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd who is all but certain to reject the legislation.


link

his proposal was DOA ... good thing he wasn't in a position to do pursue it as policy ...

Besides ignoring the fact that the resolution was bipartisan and passed overwhelmingly, the policy is basically being advanced by the Bush administration, even if not admittedly.

Consider that the Iraq national army is almost completely segregated along ethnic lines. One of the reasons the "surge" has been successful, and Anbar is being turned over to Iraqi forces, is that the Shiite and Kurd were withdrawn in favor of localized Sunni recruits as well as the Awakening groups, which would like to join the regular forces but are met with Shiite opposition.
In Diyala, there is currently a controversy because the unified government is attempting to replace the Peshmerga with troops from the South(Shiites), which led to raids of the DKP and PUK offices a couple weeks ago.

Further success of the "surge" resulted in almost complete segregation along religious and ethnic lines of Baghdad neighborhoods, complete with blast walls and armed checkpoints separating Sunni and Shia.

"There are no fears of division," Halim A'raji, head of Iraqi Association to Protect Journalists, said. "Iraq is a united country and nobody can divide it according to his ideologies, or thoughts, or political positions," he told Gulf News in an interview

That's nice rhetoric, but it's not reality-based.
Iraq is divided and will continue to be so until the three separate parts of the country are recognized and running their own affairs. Of course that's already happening, and the "surge" is one of the primary factors.



 
380Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 13:05
this was kind of scary to watch. serious sci-fi movie stuff.

busted, at the RNC...
 
381walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 16:38
Palin was also for the bridge to nowhere before she was against it. Her record of reform is exaggerated.
 
382walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 16:42
HuffPo: Palin's use of God in Context of Iraq War, Pipeline

I can't wait for Bill Maher's "Religulous" to come out. This kinda talk just weirds me out!
 
383Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 17:02
MBJ My bad - wrong link- that was just a digsuting article that focused on whether Palin was breastfeeding or not....and whether a breast-feeding mother should be running for VP.... from Obama thread.

I've been away and wow, quite a bit has happened. I find the Gov. Palin choice interesting. First, if she appeals to Baldwin, something must be amiss.

Seriously, though, I don't think her personal life helps her with "value voters". I, myself, can't stand the radio personality Dr. Laura, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that she expresses values similar to these Republican "value voters". Dr. Laura's life mission is to insist that all new mothers stay at home with their kids. She goes so far as to encourage people to introduce themselves as such, "Hi, I'm Malcolm X, Ilyasah's father..." I am certain that Dr. Laura frowns upon Gov. Palin's faimly choices. And, no, a stay-at-home father is nice, but not the same.

Breastfeeding is a touchy subject. Personally, I believe it is the single greatest thing a mother can do for a baby. I can understand there are a multitude of reasons why some mothers cannot breastfeed, but many, many family oriented conservatives will frown upon those choices.

The little baby has Downs Syndrome. This special need will really tax the parenting ability of any couple. Without even knowing if they are at all capable of juggling two young kids, one pregnant child, and one special needs infant with a mother who is home occasionally, they sign up for ten weeks of campaign triathlon. Well, I think ten weeks will be the extent of it for them.

I don't need to tell you that conservatives were already non-plused with John McCain as the candidate, and for good reason. Don't ask him about his church attendance, he doesn't want to talk about it, nor does he want you to look back at his younger years when he avoided it altogether. Do you think as a 42 year old married man he introduced himself to the dashing 24 year old heiress Cindy Hensley as, "Hi, I'm Doug, Alan and Sidney's dad"? Probably not.

Now you add a complete unknown who will be considered either stretched too thin or just a poor mother by the Republican party base. I see some have praised her for rooting out corruption in the Alaska GOP. Well, maybe she will root out the Republican value voters from the McCain base as well.
 
384Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 17:04
Madman: I view the likelihood of McCain becoming incapacitated by age 74 as small enough a risk to be irrelevant.

I don't know, Madman. The last presidential candidate whose health was in question, Paul Tsongas, would not have survived his term if he was elected in 1992.
 
385biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 17:11
I give him 1 in 5 to be able to not be a functional president in 4 years. I think looking at the actuarial tables it's 1 in 6, but the cancer shrinks that a bit. 20% chance we have a beauty queen going toe to toe with the expansionist Ruskies or perhaps an Iraq or Turkey looking to wipe the Kurd's off the face of the map? Too high.
 
386walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 17:42
Rove: Palin Choice a Campaign Decision not a Governance Decision
 
387Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 18:24

Gay Republicans endorse McCain/Palin

Both are expected to vote for the Republican presidential ticket this fall.....
 
388Tree
      ID: 51859217
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 19:04
First, if she appeals to Baldwin, something must be amiss.

much like Coulter, Baldwin is attracted to Palin and considers her to be a hot conservative woman. i am sure that played a role in McCain's decision too...

"is she hot?"
"yea."
"hotter than Hillary?"
"duh!"
"hotter than those other chickidees?"
"well, she wears glasses...."
"mmmmmm, i love me a broad with glasses. if you think she can wear a french maid outfit, bring her aboard..."
 
389Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 19:53
not exactly French maid outfit....
 
390walk
      ID: 9857121
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 20:06
NYT Blog: Ingraham Slams Media Re: Palin

Gotta fire up the base! I cannot take it. The bogus outrage, hypocrisy, and sheer made up "whining" about Palin is silly. The media is questioning McCain's judgment in choosing Palin and the extent to which she was vetted and meets the criteria for VP. The "elite media" is reporting on Palin, since no one knows her. I don't care about her pregnant daughter but I also don't think that McCain chose her based on anything other than a hopeful risk that she can help him win. Anything else is bogus.

McCain canceled his interview with Larry King tonight cos of the way his campaign spokesperson was treated after being grilled about naming "one, just one decision Palin has made as 'commander in chief of the Alaskan National Guard'." Another talking point.

I think Rove is the most honest in his bizarro scenario when he said why Palin was chosen. I think he he also said the same thing about Biden, but I don't think Biden was strictly a campaign pick; he has some chops.

At the end of the day, the Palin pick could be working (if she can hang in there with the pressure of scrutiny) cos McCain apparently made $10M in donations since he nominated her, and $47M overall in August. The base is rallying around McCain cos of her background. Whatever works. I don't respect it though.
 
391walk
      ID: 9857121
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 20:20
Another point, about Privacy

This point is about whether it's the media's fault for covering Palin and her kids. I wish the discourse was not about this, but it is somewhat obvious that if you tout a person's personal background and family, then there's bound to be scrutiny about that family.
 
392Tree
      ID: 51859217
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 20:41
PV - that link didn't work.
-------

now, regarding covering Palin's kids.

The boyfriend of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's unwed, pregnant daughter will join the family of the Republican vice presidential candidate at the GOP convention in St. Paul, Minn.

see, i'm sorry. now this is becoming a dog and pony show.

they don't want you to cover the daughter and her pregnancy, yet, now, here you are, marching out the babydaddy to the masses.

this is wrong, and if they don't want coverage, they shouldn't give more reason to cover. this is like throwing gasoline on a fire to put it out.
 
393Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 20:52
His future mother-in-law is fixin' to be nominated Vice-President for the Republicans. A once in a lifetime event. And he should not attend? You are shocked that he is attending? I think I would want to go if I were him.
 
394Perm Dude
      ID: 51854214
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 21:05
1. Somebody hasn't told the irresponsible little scamp what a distraction he'll be--it'll be a feeding frenzy among the media and will distract from the speech.

2. It sounds, from the article, like he might join Palin on the stage as is traditional for the nominee's family. This would be more than just attending.
 
395Tree
      ID: 51859217
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 21:34
I think I would want to go if I were him.

well, of course. i would too. but teenagers don't always make the wisest of decisions, as we've already seen in this particular example.

it's just another example of irresponsibility on this ticket. the awful decision making from the McCain/Palin camp is almost mind-blowing.
 
396Seattle Zen
      ID: 8748191
      Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 23:11


And, yes, in case you were wondering, that's her child, not her daughter's...

I hope she has the safety on.
 
397biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 00:28
Richard Cohen is angry.

John McCain's selection of Palin, which I first viewed with horror, could now be seen in a different light ... it is possible that this is McCain's attempt to make fools of his fellow Republicans. He has succeeded beyond all expectations.

* [McCain] said that he had "watched her record . . . for many, many years" which is, a prudent man might say, more years than she's had a record.

---
He has made the willing suspension of disbelief on which politics — as much as drama — depends impossible for much of his intended audience. Yes, some of the rubes love it. But those, like Cohen, who don't want to be taken for rubes and resent being treated as rubes really, really hate it.
 
398nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 02:04


PD 1. Somebody hasn't told the irresponsible little scamp what a distraction he'll be--it'll be a feeding frenzy among the media and will distract from the speech.

2. It sounds, from the article, like he might join Palin on the stage as is traditional for the nominee's family. This would be more than just attending.


Scamp? I haven't heard that word used in a sentence since a Charles Dickens novel.

It's really funny to see all the Dems suddenly getting righteous about unwed parenthood.

He's a distraction?

He's marrying the daughter of the VP nominee and wants to attend the inauguration. If there is a distraction that's the problem of the pious church mouse who is worried.

What McCain and Palin are doing here is saying we are proud this kid is doing the right thing, marrying the girl and not having an abortion. He is welcome in her family.

They are going to show They are not hypocrites about making the choice to have the baby by not running from it, not hiding the issue and showing they are proud of the two kids.

Of course he is invited to the convention, he's part of the family! Put him on stage and he becomes a symbol of tolerance toward those who make the "right choice" to bring a baby into the world rather then kill it.

Why should they be ashamed?

How is that a distraction? Frankly it's brilliant.

On the other hand all the conservatives posting here would be chortling and circling for blood if it was the Dem VP candidate in the same boat.

They would blame it on the values of the Dems that this girl ever got pregnant. They would talk about how the moral compass of the country was being destroyed by Dem values and this was further proof of it.

Since it's one of their own's daughter who got knocked up they will praise the mother's values in respecting the "right to life" and turn what would be a negative for a Dem into a positive for them.

Ultimately the people who post here are almost to a man Dem or Repub and will always post, 98% of the time, on the side of their party.

 
399Tree
      ID: 682435
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 06:29
It's really funny to see all the Dems suddenly getting righteous about unwed parenthood.

missing the point. it's not the unwed parenthood - it's the hypocrisy from the Conservatives - it wasn't that long ago that they were coming down on a fictional TV character for being an unwed (adult) mother as an example of exactly what was wrong with liberals.

He's marrying the daughter of the VP nominee and wants to attend the inauguration. If there is a distraction that's the problem of the pious church mouse who is worried.

again, i think you're missing the issue. for me, it's the whole "this is a child - she should be off limits to news coverage," and then they take steps to ensure there will be even more media coverage.

if you dont want the coverage on her, don't give MORE reasons for her to be covered.



 
400Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 09:59
IMO There is not a Republican in the world that Tree would not have criticized as the VP nomination. So when Tree criticizes Palin, readers of Tree's posts don't know if Palin is really a bad choice or not, because Tree would have criticized all of the choices.
 
401Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 10:59
B7 - there is a difference between being critical of policy choices, and a difference between being critical of the decision to choose someone else.

Palin, for many reasons, is a poor choice. And while i might have disagreed with the policies of someone like Romney, he would have been a better choice, IMHO.
 
402Perm Dude
      ID: 51854214
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 11:27
nerve, the word "scamp" should have been a clue to you that it was a jokey reference to the fellow. It should have been clear as well that his attendence (particularly if he went on stage) would be a distraction to Palin and her speech, qualifications, and temperment.

I have no idea of why you think they should be "ashamed." I've never said that. How they choose to handle this private matter is up to them, but, being public figures now, unnecessary distractions from Palin setting out her qualifications from the office can prove fatal to her campaign.

That all said, if Palin and McCain make it a public issue (and it sounds like you believe that to be the case) no one should be surprised that the media takes the red meat bait.
 
403nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 12:07


PD I don't think it's a distraction except for the people who make it one.

Inviting the future son in law is simply the right thing to do, it's the media who will make it a distraction.

Inviting him doesn't make it a public issue, it's normal to invite your family. It's the media whores who will stir the pot and turn it into one.

I could care a less she's knocked up and I could care less if they invite the scamp, to me it's a none issue.

As far as my missing the hypocrisy Tree I guess you missed my post where I said if it was a Dem VP candidate in the same boat The Republicans would talk about how the moral compass of the country was being destroyed by Dem values and this was further proof of it.

And please Tree there is a difference between a child's life being off limits to the press and simply inviting your family to the convention.

Look how much you are all being pulled off message once again to debate non issues instead of the real issues that matter to America, the economy, oil, inflation, and the war in Iraq.

 
404Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 12:50
Inviting the future son in law is simply the right thing to do, it's the media who will make it a distraction.

i won't argue that inviting him might be the right thing to do.

but if you throw him on the stage, damned straight it's going to be a distraction, and its not the fault of the people reporting the news - it's the fault of the people making the news.
 
405Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 13:17
tree - Are you saying that's it Palin's fault that the media has made a major story about her teenage daughter being pregnant and engaged?

Or are you saying that after the story came out, without her assitance, that's she's wrong for not hiding her daughter and son-in-law-to-be from sunlight.

Just want to be clear on what exactly she's done impropert here.

Yes, we all no the media and Lefty smear-merchants will focus on these young people who have done nothing to make themselves public figures - not sure they are compelled to surrender though.
 
405Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 13:17
tree - Are you saying that's it Palin's fault that the media has made a major story about her teenage daughter being pregnant and engaged?

Or are you saying that after the story came out, without her assitance, that's she's wrong for not hiding her daughter and son-in-law-to-be from sunlight.

Just want to be clear on what exactly she's done impropert here.

Yes, we all no the media and Lefty smear-merchants will focus on these young people who have done nothing to make themselves public figures - not sure they are compelled to surrender though.
 
406Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 13:40
tree - Are you saying that's it Palin's fault that the media has made a major story about her teenage daughter being pregnant and engaged?

to a certain extent, yes. it wasn't newsworthy on a national scale - just local - until she became a national figure.

also - unless i missed it, there's been no engagement. "intending" to marry is not the same thing. not really a relevant point, other than you bringing it up.

it is the news media's job to report the news, and if you think the teenage daughter of an extreme anti-abortion, anti-sex education VP candidate of a party making a HUGE deal about family values and who has come down in single mothers before is not news, then you've got blinders on.

it's news. it's unsavory, and it's unfortunate that this teenage girl was thrust into the spotlight, but it is newsworthy.

i don't believe anyone is saying she should have hid her daughter. but anyone who believes that the media wasn't going to see this as a MAJOR story, is a fool.

again - extreme anti-abortion, anti-sex education VP candidate of the conservative party who has come down against single mothers in the past, has a pregnant, unmarried, teenage daughter.

that's news.
 
407Perm Dude
      ID: 51854214
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 14:03
Personally I don't think it is Palin's "fault" but there are things she can do which will make it better or worse. Putting the boy on the stage will make it worse, IMO.

 
408Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 17:37


Was this taken at the Dinosaur exhibit at the Minnesota Museum of Natural History or at the Republican National Convention?



"Who let this trash in here? Where are the dumpsters?"



In order to get some non-white faces in the crowd, they swept through the Salvation Army with promises, promises. And, yes, no food until after the prayer.



"Yeah, that's him. Yeah, the guy who questioned the wisdom of lowered capital gains taxes. We've sent the riot squad to straighten him out."



"Yeah, lowered capital gains are looking pretty good right now, ain't they, punk?!"
 
409Perm Dude
      ID: 21822410
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 12:07
An everyday non-elitist folk with a $300K outfit.
 
410Baldwin
      ID: 24841319
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 12:38
Honestly, PD, if you find out Michelle's outfit's cost was in that neighborhood will it still be a story?

Do you have even an ounce of honest outrage over that?
 
411Perm Dude
      ID: 21822410
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 12:52
Outrage over what, exactly? Michelle Obama isn't calling McCain elitist. You seem to be missing the point that when someone makes a certain charge, they set themselves up for the same scrutiny.

Do you really not notice to extreme disconnect between rhetoric and reality with the GOP these days? They call for government ethical reform and a balanced budget, as though "liberals" were in charge and have been for the last 8 years. A woman who owns 11 homes and inherited $100 million dollars calls a guy who was raised by a single mom and had his first job as a poorly-paid church organizer "elitist."

Even Palin, who sat through a sermon by a guy from Jews for Jesus, doesn't escape the irony tag here.

This is a big-government, pro-intervention, fiscally irresponsible, pro-torture, quick to throw out bad decisions party.
 
412Perm Dude
      ID: 21822410
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 13:00
BTW I think from here on out we're going to see an extremely strong effort by the GOP to control the rhetoric in this race--to present Palin the way they want her, McCain as "maverick" and so on, and an increasingly public bitterness when the media won't let the campaign roll over them.

The campaign will then be about the media and whether the GOP will be successful in "crying to the refs" about their positions not being presented in the way they want them to be.

And we saw how Kerry/Edwards did in their crying to the refs in 2004.
 
413Baldwin
      ID: 24841319
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 14:42
A woman who owns 11 homes and inherited $100 million dollars - PD

Do you really not notice to extreme disconnect between rhetoric and reality - PD

Well I notice a hillarious double standard. If I look back I will find you expressing the same outrage over Kerry's wealth?

And you are outraged over Cindy McCain's outfit?
The only super-high ticket item being diamond earings she prolly had on loan from some jeweller who is now reselling the 'famous earings' for a hefty premium, or is finally able to move them.

 
414biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 14:53
Gee, I don't recall Kerry trying to paint Bush as elitist (even though he actually is!).
 
415Perm Dude
      ID: 21822410
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 14:57
Another example of irony from the Right--the claim of "double standard" by those actually engaging in one. Thank you, Baldwin.
 
416Baldwin
      ID: 24841319
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 17:26
Refresh my memory on what post of mine represents a double standard.
 
417tastethewaste
      ID: 16817415
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 21:58
did someone say double standard?
 
418Perm Dude
      ID: 22824415
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 22:11
Man he's on a roll.
 
419Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 22:14
Rove, O'Reilly and Morris? Ducks in a barrell. He needs to go after big game.
 
420Baldwin
      ID: 24841319
      Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 12:21
I'm still waiting to hear the first liberal suggest someone McCain should have more reasonably picked, 1) who would have helped him win back the conservative base, 2) helped him draw off a portion of disgruntled Hillary supporters as well as undecided women who weren't indoctrinated in college, 3) who isn't easily tied to washington insiders and the Bush administration.

Name anyone. I'll be amazed if all the people whistling at the 'stupidity' of McCain's pick can suggest anyone who makes more sense.
 
421Perm Dude
      ID: 22824415
      Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 12:26
Why would liberals help you pick someone that will "win back the conservative base?" Almost literally anyone McCain could have picked would have done the trick. And conservatives (even Christianists who hate McCain) are going to get behind the GOP selection no matter what. It is a religious matter to them.

Your after-the-fact qualifications for the job are silly. You don't think you'd have a whole host of new and different qualifications for alternative picks if McCain selected (for example) Colin Powell?
 
422Baldwin
      ID: 24841319
      Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 12:41
I think it would make a perfectly rational discussion to compare the plusses of those two choices. What isn't rational is to dismiss the choice of Palin without acknowleging all the bonuses she brings to the table.

It seems to me that the points I raised are crucial to McCain's chances.

If he actually can make the split between Hillary and Obama supporters the wound that will not heal, he probably couldn't be beat. If he can't win back conservatives he probably can't win. Picking a Bush admin insider [or former insider] almost certainly is a losing idea. Try as I might, no one, not even Condi, comes to mind as working better under the circumstances.
 
423Baldwin
      ID: 24841319
      Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 21:24
Alan Keys has this down.
As a matter of unalloyed political calculation, I'm sure he's right. McCain cannot win without support from the pro-life moral constituency. Given his abandonment of pro-life principle, he cannot get that support on his own merit. Support from supposed leaders of the moral constituency wasn't getting the desired results. Their endorsements and fallacious arguments couldn't stand up to the truth about his actions. Given the facts, these leaders were simply destroying their own credibility. Since his own record belies any attempts to portray him as pro-life, the choice of Sarah Palin allows him to run on someone else's. All his supporters have to do is convince the moral constituency to forget that they are voting for John McCain and act as if they are voting for Sarah Palin. McCain can't be too comforted, however, by the knowledge that some of them are trying to make their point with whispered references to McCain's age, and the likelihood that his early demise would bring his running mate to the Oval Office.
 
424Perm Dude
      ID: 22824415
      Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 21:47
Keyes, as usual, is only half right.

McCain's pro-life cred is solid, and the pro-life crowd would bite the bullet and vote for him anyway (pre-convention McCain was already running at 85% approval among self-identified Republicans). Where he will fail is his effort to make this a "Republican base" general election. This is no longer the primary election, and with Democrats outnumbering Republicans in this country he risks alienating moderate voters.

A really motivated Christianist vote counts the same as a moderate one turned off because of the continued base appeal.
 
425Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 13:08
so, who do the troops support?

McCain could be #3 behind Paul and Obama...
 
426nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 14:45


suggest someone McCain should have more reasonably picked, 1) who would have helped him win back the conservative base, 2) helped him draw off a portion of disgruntled Hillary supporters as well as undecided women who weren't indoctrinated in college, 3) who isn't easily tied to washington insiders and the Bush administration.

Jeez Baldwin that's awfully cynical. Shouldn't he be picking someone who is qualified to be President?

 
427Boldwin
      ID: 33828610
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 15:13
That's what they have the 'chief of staff' position for.
 
428Perm Dude
      ID: 20815719
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:05
No. The VP pick is all his to make. Don't try to pawn this off as a staff problem.
 
429Boldwin
      ID: 33828610
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:23
You just keep thinking she is some kind of mistake. It amuses me no end.
 
430Perm Dude
      ID: 20815719
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:29
And yet you keep insisting that the next pick will be the better one.

It amuses me to think that you believe Democratic women would support Palin.
 
431Boldwin
      ID: 33828610
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:33
The next pick? Whatever are you talking about?
 
432Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:35
It amuses me to think that you believe Democratic women would support Palin.

well, he doesn't KNOW any democratic women.

all of my female friends and family members - many of whom were very much behind Hillary Clinton, enjoy having freedoms involving their uterus, and were insulted with McCain's transparent play for their vote, through Palin.
 
433Boldwin
      ID: 33828610
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:40
I don't think he was angling for the baby-killer vote.
 
434Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:46
It amuses me to think that you believe Democratic women would support Palin.

PD - You seriously doubt that a sizable number of Democratic women will support Palin? I have 13 female employees and between them and my wife, I am certain that Palin has made a difference. Have you not seen the Rasmausen poll numbers on McCain support among women from before and after the Palin announcement?

She doesn't have to win over all the Dem women to do her job. One of the major problems Dems have when trying to win national elections is that they still believe that their platform is overwhemingly supported by their party's registrered voters.
 
435Perm Dude
      ID: 20815719
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:51
I haven't seen any polls on Democratic women post-Palin, MBJ. If you have, please point to them.

The fact that Republican women support the ticket more is a no-brainer, of course. Just as Democratic women would more strongly support the Dem ticket if Obama had picked a woman VP.

Democratic women, by and large, are solidly pro-choice. To think they would, to any large degree, abandon their own party to support McCain now that it is McCain/Palin seems a bit out of sorts.
 
436Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 16:56
I don't think he was angling for the baby-killer vote.

never mind your idiotic statements, if you think that he wasn't looking for the votes of Clinton supporters by selecting Palin, you're a fool.
 
437Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 17:04
PD - McCain leads by four points among men while Obama leads by three among women. On Tuesday, when Obama’s lead peaked, he had a fourteen point advantage among women.

link


 
438Boldwin
      ID: 33828610
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 18:49
Tree

Not all Hillary supporters are baby-killers. You yourself pretend not to be.
 
439Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 19:12
all of my female friends and family members - many of whom were very much behind Hillary Clinton, enjoy having freedoms involving their uterus, and were insulted with McCain's transparent play for their vote, through Palin.

Really ,they were insulted. Who in the world do they think they are. Let me see if I follow this: Your ultra-liberal Democratic friends were insulted by the Republican choice for VP. How is that even possible? Like McCane was going to check with them for advice or something. Like they were going to choose someone that big libs approve of. Like they were going to choose an anti-baby candidate.

I was insulted by the choice of Biden. I was hoping for a Liberterian.
 
440Perm Dude
      ID: 20815719
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 20:21
Wha? #438: Are you saying that you believe Clinton's supporters are not overwhelmingly pro-choice?

Perhaps you'll "pull a Palin supporter" and knock mr for implying that you are saying that Clinton supporters are abortion doctors?

Words mean something, as Obama says.
 
441Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 20:28
ABC?Wshington Post poll also shows McCain making big gains among white women in particular

So these gains are either being made without former Hillary supporters coming along? Right.
 
442Tree
      ID: 2889818
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 20:39
Your ultra-liberal Democratic friends..

nice stereotype there. i'm not ultra-liberal. not by a long shot. and the clintons are much more moderate than liberal, but nice try.

insulted by the Republican choice for VP

yea, because they felt the choice of Palin was strictly because she has a v@gina.

Like McCane

while normally spelling gaffes don't matter, the man is running for president. come on now.

So these gains are either being made without former Hillary supporters coming along? Right.

it could just as likely be the religious right who wasn't keen on McCain.
 
443Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 20:44
According to the poll, 1 in 4 women who supported Hillary now support McCain; that's a huge number, especially considering the miniscule platform differences in the two.
 
444Tree
      ID: 2889818
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 20:54
that is a huge number, and a worrisome one. but, i suspect it'll swing back the other day before the election...
 
445Perm Dude
      ID: 20815719
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 21:03
considering the miniscule platform differences in the two.

You believe this, MBJ? I'm not being a smartass here, but despite McCain slowly gravitating toward the Obama position on some foreign policy issues, there are some huge differences in a whole range of issues.
 
446Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 21:04
PD - Between Hillary and Obama.
 
447Perm Dude
      ID: 20815719
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 21:12
Ah, OK, that makes sense.

I think the bitterness of the Democratic primary is still making the numbers less settled for November. But I've seen polling numbers (can't find them right now), in which support for McCain among democrats drops by as much as a third when his pro-choice stance is revealed to the voters.

I dunno if his "maverick" label makes people believe that he's holding Democratic positions, but I see Obama as continuing to work the "McCain = Bush" line but with more specificity.
 
448Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 22:01
Like McCane

while normally spelling gaffes don't matter, the man is running for president. come on now.


I spell it like that on purpose.
 
449Wilmer McLean
      ID: 5582581
      Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 04:26
"Brevity is the soul of wit."

Cal Thomas in his September 5th commentary sums it up...

...

If McCain and Palin are elected and try to reform Washington, they will have an opposition Congress that probably won't let them. If Obama and Biden are elected, they'll have a Democratic Congress that will let them do what they want. I’ll take potential frustration over danger.
 
450bibA
      ID: 5580818
      Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 07:18
Wilmer - Are you saying that IF McCain were to have his way as expressed, that is that he would bring about reform, that you would not vote for him?
 
451Boldwin
      ID: 34845818
      Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 10:07
It reads to me like he would vote for McCain whether he could bring about reform or even if he were to be frustrated in the attempt.
 
452Tree
      ID: 5287918
      Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 21:24
the issues the McCain camp would rather discuss...

Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama told an audience Tuesday that GOP presidential nominee John McCain says he'll change Washington, but he's just like President Bush.

"You can put lipstick on a pig," he said to an outbreak of laughter, shouts and raucous applause from his audience, clearly drawing a connection to Palin's joke. "It's still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change. It's still going to stink after eight years."

McCain's campaign immediately organized a telephone conference call in response and called on Obama to apologize for calling Palin a pig.


lol. what?!?!?!!?!?!?!? nowhere did Obama call Palin a pig.
 
453Perm Dude
      ID: 35855107
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 10:11
This ad seems particularly sleazy to me.

Does McCain's staff seem intent upon dragging his campaign down again? McCain's post-convention bounce (brought about, in no large degree, by his good and moderate acceptance speech) seems to be in trouble is he's going to take to low road again.
 
454Perm Dude
      ID: 35855107
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 10:45
Let me just add that I think this is sleazy for several reasons:

-it injects sex into the race;

-it says that Obama voted for sex education for kindergartners, which isn't true--the program was already in-place and the bill was about mandating information about STDs and sexual predators into the curricula;

-the bill actually does the opposite of what the ad implies. Rather than make sex more attractive for children, by injecting information about diseases and predators into the program it makes sex seem more dangerous and less of an attractive option. In fact, this is the very kind of thing that Republicans would want to happen to sex education--make it more reality-based in order to make sexual activity seem less like the carefree attractive activity that is presented in movies, music, and other forms of entertainment.

This isn't the first time the GOP has taken on Obama for doing what it would otherwise have approved of. But this sure is the sleaziest so far.
 
455Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 10:52
I don't think Republication would want sex ed for Kindergarten students regardless of how "carefree" the curricula made it seem.

It's sleazt though and comes on the heals of Obama trying to commandeer some conservative approaches to education reform in a recent speech.

The race to the bottom is really heating up.
 
456walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 10:53
Yeah, I saw this on MSNBC last night, PD. Obama needs to come out hard and fast about how the republicans are liars in the lowest form. The presidential race is now about character, and McCain and Palin winning based on their character and connection with their supporters (I believe Friedman's editorial). Obama needs to refute their character, and raise his by saying how he refuses to lie like they way lie.
 
457Perm Dude
      ID: 35855107
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 16:20
 
458Boldwin
      ID: 34845818
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 17:19
So cocky they think they can do anything without it backfiring.

You just stand there in the crowd smiling all day, PD.
 
459bibA
      ID: 5580818
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 17:20
Obama trying to commandeer some conservative approaches to education reform

If one didn't know better, one would think that from this attitude, there is absolutely nothing the guy can say or do to avoid criticism. Either he is too liberal, or he is commandeering conservative approaches. Either he does nothing, or he is just pandering to the center/right. Either he ignores educating youngsters about sexual predators, or he just doesn't care.
 
460Perm Dude
      ID: 35855107
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 17:29
I have no idea what you are talking about Baldwin. Seriously. I think you have the "automatic criticism" button stuck on your computer anytime you come here.

bibA: Yeah, sounds like the criticisms leveled against Bill Clinton. He either was a flaming liberal, or he stole the good ideas. I think Obama has been pretty clear about his education plan being fairly conservative in nature, particularly with his longstanding belief that education begins in the home with parental involvement.
 
461Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 17:55
geez - I wasn't criticizing Obama, I was applauding him, if anything. (actually, I was just emphasizing the timely sleazefactor in the McCain ad)....but I'm pretty sure vouchers, school choice, merit based teacher pay, etc. , haven't been a part of Obama's stump speech heading into the DNC.

As I've said recently, I've been pleased on the flexibilty he's shown on a few issues since wrapping up the nomination.

Unwad your undies on this one.
 
462Perm Dude
      ID: 35855107
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 18:07
Actually, Obama supports merit pay (as well as increased pay for teachers in certain underperforming areas, which I refer to as "combat pay?), and supports charter schools

But point taken. Undies unwadded.
 
463angryCHAIR
      ID: 561401810
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 22:44
Out of bounds: McCain ad misstates Obama sex-ed record
By MARGARET TALEV
McClatchy Newspapers


* http://mcclatchydc.com/election2008/

Throw the flag against: The McCain-Palin campaign.

Call: Unsportsmanlike conduct.

What happened: A new 30-second TV ad attacks Barack Obama's record on education, saying that Obama backed legislation to teach " 'comprehensive sex education' to kindergartners." The announcer then says, "Learning about sex before learning to read? Barack Obama. Wrong on education. Wrong for your family."

Why that's wrong: This is a deliberately misleading accusation. It came hours after the Obama campaign released a TV ad critical of McCain's votes on public education. As a state senator in Illinois, Obama did vote for but was not a sponsor of legislation dealing with sex ed for grades K-12.

But the legislation allowed local school boards to teach "age-appropriate" sex education, not comprehensive lessons to kindergartners, and it gave schools the ability to warn young children about inappropriate touching and sexual predators.

Republican Alan Keyes tried to use Obama's vote against him in the 2004 U.S. Senate race. At the time, Obama spoke about wanting to protect young children from abuse. He made clear then that he was not supporting teaching kindergartners about explicit details of sex.

Obama spokesman Bill Burton said Tuesday of McCain's ad: "It is shameful and downright perverse for the McCain campaign to use a bill that was written to protect young children from sexual predators as a recycled and discredited political attack against a father of two young girls."

Penalty: 15 yards for the McCain campaign's deliberate low blow.
 
464Perm Dude
      ID: 35855107
      Thu, Sep 11, 2008, 01:21
McCain on national service.

One of those things he decided to quietly drop when he decided to run for president?
 
465Boldwin
      ID: 34845818
      Thu, Sep 11, 2008, 02:36
And now you see why George Soros loves McCain and conservatives don't.
 
466Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Sep 11, 2008, 17:57


More like lipstick on a red herring...
 
467Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Thu, Sep 11, 2008, 18:01
Some people really have a hockey stick to the chops coming.
 
468walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 08:10
NYT, Krugman

Word. The McCain campaign is blatantly putting out lies, more so than there opponents, and it does speak to McCain's integrity. I know both sides do this, but it's a magnitude thing, and the Republicans have done it much more intensely of late.
 
469Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 08:31
Now I see where PD gets it. It's the Dem talking points he gets handed each day. The only way we could drop in the polls from near 100% approval is if the people were being fooled. "We won't get fooled again!". It's a victim complex and it has eaten away the rational processing centers of your brains.

There won't be much rational debate this campaign.
 
470Perm Dude
      ID: 25857128
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 10:01
You don't see at all, do you Baldwin?

This cynical "attacking the messenger" politics you dabble in (always skirting on the edge) is what will propel Americans to reject McCain/Palin.
 
471Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 13:21
walk 468 -- I don't like that Krugman column, but I'll agree in principle. Partly, the acceleration in exaggeration is due to being on the offensive. But that doesn't explain all of it. I'm much more interested in the "why" ... both with the lipstick-pig pretend offense and the sex-ed ad, for example, I'm frustrated because it seems to me that he's over-reached. If he was down in the polls, I'd understand. If Obama wasn't self-destructing, I'd understand. But he's up in the polls and Obama's freaking out. The best offense right now was for McCain to stay on the high road with Obama-Palin squabbling back and forth. Ideally, they would start to squabble about energy policy or government reform. Partly, the latter has happened, but why interrupt that for the sex-ed thing? It gives too much credit to Obama's ed speech, I think.
 
472Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:04
Please Madman, the Dem uber-offensive 'lipstick on a pig' campaign has zero innocence going for it. It is a no holds barred insult. Obama is slathering it on with a lighter touch for the sake of deniability but the rest of the Obamamaniacs are in full-thoated gleeful insult mode.
 
473Perm Dude
      ID: 25857128
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:19
No holds barred insult? What an idiotic statement. It was clear that Obama was referring to old and recycled policies.

Are you saying that Obama called Palin a "fish" as well?
 
474Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:28
It was clear that Obama was referring to old and recycled policies.


I said he at least built in some deniability.

Are you saying that Obama called Palin a "fish" as well?

Not that I noticed.
 
475walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:30
Boldwin you REALLY think Obama was insulting Palin with that comment. Nice fake outrage. There is no sense in him doing that, no reward for the risk and no consistency with his prior campaign tactics. The mere discussion other than of the cartoon above is a typical BS distraction. Move on.(org)

Madman, so we agree in principle. The recent repub attacks have been far more Rovian lie-like than what we have seen anywhere other than some Mitt/Rudy thug-like liberal bashing.

Makes me literally sad about our country: that our campaigns, for POTUS no less, get reduced to such jibberish, and it works.

Reiser's column I posted in another thread sums it up.

 
476Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:39
Walk

I definately get the sense that Obama is well aware of the more effective currents moving his people on the blogosphere and has been from the day he announced. The pig counter to Palin's effective convention line about pitbull was on his website posted by commenters well before Obama's comment and I would bet a month's pay that he got a chuckle out of it and was just repeating an inside joke from among his followers.
 
477walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:42
I don't think so, Boldwin. I think the risk, given the heightened (bogus) republican outrage at media sexism since Palin's nomination (a nice fallback for any criticism, but to be honest, I wish all attention would be on Obama and McCain and not Palin good or bad) would make such an inside joke extremely diadvantageous for Obama to make. He is pretty smart and savvy and typically unwilling to smear. It does not add up that he would go there.
 
478walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:45
I mean, even Bill O'Reilly does not think Obama meant to insult Palin

And, of all parties all of a sudden talking about sexism and nastiness and inneundo. I can only now say over and over again, Reiser.
 
479Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 14:57
It does not add up that he would go there.

It was deniable. It was his favorite joke of the day. He did go there.

He didn't go right up to Palin and draw pigtail and ears on her like his followers are doing on the blogs without restraint, but yes he indeed went there.
 
480walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 15:02
He said lipstick on a pig, so that meant he was talking about Palin? No way.
 
481Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 15:03
Walk

Further this worry over just how outraged Republicans are over this is overblown. That's just projection from Dems who have been playing outrage from the cradle.

You just aren't gonna get away with coloring it gone. We aren't stupid and we caught it.

No Obama won't be a day away from the election still mirred in answering questions about the pig reference.
 
482Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 15:19
good lord.

we are still talking about this. bottom line - anyone who believes Obama was insulting Palin with a phrase that took root in the 1700s, is, an idiot.

a bonafide, 100 percent, idiot.

heck, going back to 2004, VP Dick Cheney used the phrase, to describe John Kerry, and i don't think anyone said Cheney was insulting Kerry... he even explained that it was a very popular phrase in Wyoming...

Now, in the closing days of this campaign, John Kerry is running around talking tough. He's trying every which way to cover up his record of weakness on national defense. But he can't do it. It won't work. As we like to say in Wyoming, you can put all the lipstick you want on that pig, but at the end of the day it's still a pig. (Applause.) That's my favorite line. (Laughter.) You want to hear it again?

but, the reality is that i don't know who's more stupid - someone like Baldwin, who seems to actually believe that it was an insult, or those of us that continue to argue with that old fool, when there are bigger, more important, and more real issues to discuss.
 
483Boldwin
      ID: 358331116
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 15:24
It's the timing, stupid.
 
484Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 15:41
exactly.

it's not a smear. it's the clever turn of a phrase. it's taking something Palin said, and twisting it with a smirk.

but it is not an insult to her. only a simpleton would believe it was.

still, it's doing it's job. it's allowing morons like you to run this election - people like you who couldn't possibly have an issue-based discussion because they'd be taken to school - by making it about some of the least important things ever.
 
485walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 16:02
#484...word!
 
486J-Bar
      ID: 58845721
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 16:44
tree 482 and 484 I agree, it almost reaches the same idiocy as thinking that an ad with paris hilton and brittney spears is racist about white women lusting after the black man. funny how when the left was 'outraged' at everything that was said or done as being racist that it was profound and correct and now that the right learned those lessons well and have turned everything that is said or done into sexism the outrage is so false. lmao
 
487Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 17:16
paris hilton and brittney spears is racist about white women lusting after the black man

just because you are ignorant of the stereotype at work here doesn't make it not so. it's one of the oldest around about "the black man"...

into sexism

obviously you're ignorant of what sexism is as well.
 
488walk
      ID: 22854919
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 19:29
Brave NewPac
 
489Tree
      ID: 348481221
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 22:55
great stuff Walk...
 
490walk
      ID: 22854919
      Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 23:07
Time for Bill Maher...
 
491walk
      ID: 22854919
      Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 09:21
Distortions Catching up to McCain

In an interview Friday on the NY1 cable news channel, a McCain supporter, Senator Orrin G. Hatch of Utah, called “ridiculous” the implication that Mr. Obama’s “lipstick on a pig” comment was a reference to Ms. Palin, whom he also defended as coming under unfair attack. “The last month, for sure,” said Don Sipple, a Republican advertising strategist, “I think the predominance of liberty taken with truth and the facts has been more McCain than Obama.”
 
492Perm Dude
      ID: 25857128
      Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 13:56
By themselves, pumping up crowd numbers isn't a big deal, even when they are sourced to people who claim never to have provided the numbers (tiny lies?). But as part of a seemingly larger pattern of deception, this doesn't help McCain/Palin.
 
493Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 11:03
AngryChair 463 -- But the legislation allowed local school boards to teach "age-appropriate" sex education, not comprehensive lessons to kindergartners, and it gave schools the ability to warn young children about inappropriate touching and sexual predators.

Republican Alan Keyes tried to use Obama's vote against him in the 2004 U.S. Senate race. At the time, Obama spoke about wanting to protect young children from abuse. He made clear then that he was not supporting teaching kindergartners about explicit details of sex.


McCain's ad attacked what the bill allowed. A defense predicated in what Obama wanted is insufficient. Specifically, The bill in question. The bill intends to change the language FROM:

Each class or course in comprehensive sex
14 education offered in any of grades 6 through 12 shall
15 include instruction on the prevention, transmission and spread
17 of AIDS


TO:

Each class or course in comprehensive sex
14 education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall
15 include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted
16 infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread
17 of HIV
.

That change in wording goes well beyond the scope of Obama's public defense. Why add a mandate that any comprehensive sex-ed program has to talk about HIV transmission and prevention in grade K-5?

Why does teaching kindergartners about "inappropriate touching" have to be done in the context of a sex-ed program at all?

Obama supported a misguided and flawed approach. Fortunately, Obama and the bill's other supporters were shot down, and the 6-12 language for teaching about STD's was retained, as I understand it.
 
494Perm Dude
      ID: 108291412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 13:37
McCain said that Obama wanted to mandate sex education for kindergartners. Obama says that he didn't mandate the education but wanted to include, in an already-mandated curriculum, additional information about STDs, sexual predators, and so on.

Your post, Madman, doesn't refute Obama's point. The change in the language specifies that the information must be included.

Sec. 27-9.2. Family Life.
7 (a) If any school district provides courses of
8 instruction designed to promote wholesome and comprehensive
9 understanding of the emotional, psychological, physiological,
10 hygienic and social responsibility aspects of family life,
11 then such courses of instruction shall include the teaching
12 of prevention of unintended pregnancy and all options related
13 to unintended pregnancy
14 appropriate to the various grade levels; and whenever such
15 courses of instruction are provided in any of grades K 6
16 through 12, then such courses also shall include age
17 appropriate instruction on the prevention of sexually
18 transmitted infections, including the prevention,
19 transmission and spread of HIV. However, no pupil shall
20 be required to take or participate in any family life class
21 or course on HIV instruction if his parent or guardian
22 submits written objection thereto, and refusal to take or
23 participate in such course or program shall not be reason for
24 suspension or expulsion of such pupil.


Another key, of course, is the phrase "age-appropriate" which both you, and McCain, want to gloss over.
 
495Boldwin
      ID: 58151319
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 14:14
Do you think your side has earned any confidence in that department?
 
496Perm Dude
      ID: 108291412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 14:19
No one has to "earn" the right not to be lied about, Baldwin.
 
497Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 15:02
Obama says that he didn't mandate the education but wanted to include, in an already-mandated curriculum, additional information about STDs, sexual predators, and so on.

Exactly. And why extend that mandate to K-5? If you mandate that extension, that suggests something about what is legally "age-appropriate". It was a bad amendment that he shouldn't have supported.
 
498walk
      ID: 22854919
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 16:07
Rove Says McCain's Ads Have Gone too Far

Almost bizarre, could I would have guessed that Rove was behind the change in McCain's strategy of late. Interesting.
 
499walk
      ID: 22854919
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 16:13
Thomas Friedman, Sept 14

Frank Rich, Palin-Whatshisname
 
500walk
      ID: 22854919
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 16:21
Rich is right:

"Karl Rove for once gave the Democrats a real tip rather than a bum steer when he wrote last week that if Obama wants to win, “he needs to remember he’s running against John McCain for president,” not Palin for vice president. Obama should keep stepping up the blitz on McCain’s flip-flops, confusion, ignorance and blurriness on major issues (from education to an exit date from Iraq), rather than her gaffes and résumé. If he focuses voters on the 2008 McCain, the Palin question will take care of itself."

"As Republicans know best, fear does work. If Obama is to convey just what’s at stake, he must slice through the campaign’s lipstick jungle and show Americans the real perils that lie around the bend."
 
501Perm Dude
      ID: 108291412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 16:52
And why extend that mandate to K-5?

Obama believed (and may still believe, for all we know), that informing children of the dangers of sexual predators is important enough for the schools to do.

Maybe he should, or maybe he shouldn't, have supported an change in the already existing curricula to inform very young students about sexual predators. This question still doesn't make McCain's point a true one.
 
502Boldwin
      ID: 58151319
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 17:33
PD

If you are pushing for age-appropriate, you better have a reputation for good judgement in that area.

I'm not comfortable putting my kindergartners in the hands of the libertine party.
 
503Perm Dude
      ID: 108291412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 18:28
Then opt out. There was, and still is, a "no questions" opt out for any parent at any age.
 
504Boldwin
      ID: 58151319
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 21:18
That's rich, PD. We can opt out, can we?

Liberals have a history of indoctrination [whole school assembly GLcrossdressing/perversion of the month] where they deliberately withhold notifying the parents and threaten the kids not to tell their parents.

As you are well aware, liberals are for withholding notifying parents when their daughters get abortions.

Exactly why would anyone trust their children with liberals?
 
505Perm Dude
      ID: 108291412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 21:50
You really have no idea of what that law says, do you? It all comes down to your hatred of "liberals" in the end anyway. Everything you write is merely an excuse to say so.

It would seem rare that a person would openly show off their ignorance of the topic at hand, but this is what the GOP has devolved into: "Authentic" is better than competence.
 
506Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 21:51
Maybe he should, or maybe he shouldn't, have supported an change in the already existing curricula to inform very young students about sexual predators. This question still doesn't make McCain's point a true one.

Read the law and selections in my post 493. Nothing to do about sexual predators. That's not the problem with the law he voted for. Why purposefully and explicitly extend the STD etc. education down to kindergartners?

And if you know that language is eviscerated by a vague "age appropriate" reference later in the law, the question becomes even more pertinent. The text of the bill is clear. Unfortunately, it doesn't match what Obama now claims his objectives were.
 
507J-Bar
      ID: 58845721
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 23:32
it wasn't the law that he thought he knew.
 
508Perm Dude
      ID: 108291412
      Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 23:41
From your link, Madman:

(11) Course material and instruction shall
34 teach pupils to not make unwanted physical and verbal

-4- LRB093 05269 NHT 05359 b
1 sexual advances and how to say no to unwanted sexual
2 advances and shall include information about verbal,
3 physical, and visual sexual harassment, including without
4 limitation nonconsensual sexual advances, nonconsensual
5 physical sexual contact, and rape by an acquaintance. The
6 course material and instruction shall contain methods of
7 preventing sexual assault by an acquaintance, including
8 exercising good judgment and avoiding behavior that
9 impairs one's judgment. The course material and
10 instruction shall emphasize personal accountability and
11 respect for others andshall also encourage youth
14 to resist negative peer pressure. The course material and
15 instruction shall inform pupils of the potential legal
16 consequences of sexual assault by an acquaintance.
17 Specifically, pupils shall be advised that it is unlawful
18 to touch an intimate part of another person as specified
19 in the Criminal Code of 1961.


The desciption of the actions of a sexual predator are pretty clear there. Nothing to do....

Truly? Perhaps you overlooked that, or stopped reading after a Control-F failed to reveal the phrase "sexual predator?" C'mon. You're usually much better than this.

And this still doesn't make McCain's ad truthful. You need to get off the sinking ship of defending that despicable ad.
 
509Perm Dude
      ID: 108291412
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 00:02
Rove thinks McCain might be going a little to far?

Qualified by equalizing remarks about Obama, but this seems a surprising remark by Karl Rove.
 
510Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 11:55
PD 508 -- The desciption of the actions of a sexual predator are pretty clear there.

PD, read what I typed in 506. The selections referenced in 493 were amendments proposed in the bill. Obama voted for them. *That selection* has nothing to do with predators.

The question remains unanswered: why extend conditional STD education mandates to K-5?

Your argument appears to be that Obama's defense is truthful because what he wanted was in the bill. Yet, you argue that McCain's attack is untruthful because what he was attacking is also in the bill.
 
511CanadianHack
      ID: 21937272
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 13:08
The question remains unanswered: why extend conditional STD education mandates to K-5?

When I was that age, in the late 1970s and early 1980's, the earliest I am aware of any classmates having sex is during grade 6.

So teaching a grade 5 about STDs seems like a very logical thing to do. A few members of their class are likely going to be sexually active within a year assuming the situation has not significantly changed (and I see no reason to imagine it has) and that knowledge may save their lives.
 
512Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 13:49
i'm with CH here. while the pregnancy rate for pre-teens is in decline, sexually active 10 to 12 year olds are common enough that it is a problem.

when i was 10, i was kissing tracy travers, trying to figure out how on earth people kissed so long without stopping to breathe...

it's a different world now, and adults, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum, need to realize that.....
 
513walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 13:52
Time: Outraged and Outrageous

Sad but true observation. I am admittedly quite biased, but in my view, there would be no justice, and little justification, for McCain to win come November.
 
514Perm Dude
      ID: 458531512
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 13:53
Madman, as I pointed out previously, there is nothing in the proposed bill which mandates STD instructions to kindergartners. It mandates that comprehensive sex education should include STD information, but does not mandate such comprehensive sex education for K-6.
 
515Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 17:02
PD -- again, I said conditional STD mandates. Under the conditions of the bill (that a sex-ed program is in place), the bill explicitly extends the mandate to include STD education to grades K-5. You still haven't answered why the bill would include that change, other than throwing some red herrings like, paraphrasing, "Obama voted for it because the bill also did other things" (the predator language) and "well, that change wasn't applicable because of other provisions in the bill" (age appropriateness).

The simple fact is that Obama voted to extend sex-ed mandates for kindergartners under the conditions in the bill. The fact that there surely are few comprehensive sex-ed programs to which the mandate for kindergartners would apply raises even more questions about Obama's judgment for supporting such a foolish thing.
 
516Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 17:03
hopefully people will start to see through McCain's scum bag brand of politics soon. what a real piece of work this guy is becoming...

McCain says Obama didn't call Palin a pig

Did Barack Obama really call Sarah Palin a pig, as a John McCain ad leads people to believe? "No," McCain said Monday. The Republican presidential nominee defended the ad anyway, saying Obama "chooses his words very carefully."

yea, and so does McCain. unfortunately, the words McCain choose tend to be dishonest and lacking in truth.
 
517Taxman
      ID: 3985420
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 17:09
Thanks walk!

Nice to put a name to the Wizard behind the curtain that gave us 8 years of W...and is now trying to deliver us McCain, not on important and meaningful issues such as economy, energy, foreign policy, war, social issues and environment, but again via attack lies.

Makes me wonder about the values McCain has/doesn't have.

Boldwin..post 504..
enough with liberal that and liberal this...the word you needed to use in 504 is PRO-CHOICE. The majority of posters in this forum give links and references to claims made. You just through the mud by assessing every veiw contrary to yours as "LIBERAL".

Truly embarassing in light of your strength of conviction. But then your religion is all about faith, so why would you need to give references to your herein pronouncements, when you have faith that you are never off base..









 
518Perm Dude
      ID: 458531512
      Mon, Sep 15, 2008, 17:15
#515: Again, the bill extends education to K-6 in order that they obtain sexual predator information (you're not still of the belief that the language doesn't include this, are you?).

There is nothing in that proposed bill which mandates STD information for K-6. It does say that the sex education will be age appropriate.

At this point we're merely talking past each other.
 
519Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 05:38
Taxman

I set the board record for googling back in the day but I'm retired from posting now, relatively speaking.

I do mean to work on one project tho, the liberal attack on institution of family which should more than satisfy your thirst for links to liberal outrages.
 
520walk
      ID: 22854919
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 07:44
Here's a case study for your research: I am liberal, I am anti-family. I will start with my own family after we finish our morning bong hits...to get ready for school. Aaaaaaaar.
 
521Tree
      ID: 40849166
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 07:51
the liberal attack on institution of WHITE family...

i fixed that for ya Baldy, because you've already established that if they have brown skin, you've got no problem splittin' 'em up and punishing children for the mistakes of their parents...
 
522Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 09:14
Byron York interviewed one of the sponsors of SB99 ... link

When I asked Martinez the rationale for changing grade six to kindergarten, she said that groups like Planned Parenthood and the Cook County Department of Health — both major contributors to the bill — “were finding that there were children younger than the sixth grade that were being inappropriately touched or molested.” When I asked about the elimination of references to marriage and the contraception passages, Martinez said that the changes were “based on some of the information we got from Planned Parenthood.”

After we discussed other aspects of the bill, I told Martinez that reading the bill, I just didn’t see it as being exclusively, or even mostly, about inappropriate touching. “I didn’t see it that way, either,” Martinez said. “It’s just more information about a whole variety of things that have to go into a sex education class, the things that are outdated that you want to amend with things that are much more current.”

So, I asked, you didn’t see it specifically as being about inappropriate touching?

“Absolutely not.”
 
523Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 12:38
Rove speaks ... The subject of McCain's ad knocking Obama over sex education came up during the question and answer portion of the proceedings last night, and Rove responded by saying - and I'm paraphrasing here - that in his opinion the McCain camp had erred by not being specific enough in its claim.

The bill, Rove pointed out (and which you can see from Byron York's analysis here this morning), did in fact include specific language that kindergarteners be taught about sexually transmitted diseases including HIV. Rove said that he felt the McCain campaign got "too cute" in using the phrase "comprehensive sex education" which opened the door to enough ambiguity for counter charges to be hurled back at McCain. Better to just let the exact language in the bill speak for itself, Rove said.

Rove went on to say that he thought the Obama campaign was making a serious mistake in using this to try and cast McCain as a dishonorable liar, because the label is fundamentally at odds with the core of McCain's public image. By spending so much effort trying to make this charge stick, Rove said, the Obama campaign was wasting valuable time that would be better spent offering voters a reason to vote for Obama rather than a reason to vote against McCain.
 
524Perm Dude
      ID: 3825168
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 12:53
...the Obama campaign was wasting valuable time that would be better spent offering voters a reason to vote for Obama rather than a reason to vote against McCain.

Pot, meet kettle.

The ads and stump speeches that are full of outright distortions are, indeed, out of touch with the appearance of McCain as an honorable man. What happened to the guy?

Rove appears to be gently backing away from the campaign--as gently as he can--knowing that McCain/Palin might have jumped the shark with the lies and distortions.

#522: This still doesn't refute your point, Madman. Obama says he voted for it because it inserted language about predators and increased the grades at which the students would be reached about it. Nothing you posted brings that into doubt.
 
525Taxman
      ID: 3985420
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 14:11
e-mail hitting my in box this morning (although no alegations are referenced, decided to pass it on anyway...my, how petty we are):

I'm a little confused. Let me see if I have this straight.....


* If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're 'exotic, different.'
* Grow up in Alaska eating mooseburgers, a quintessential American story.


* If your name is Barack you're a radical, unpatriotic Muslim.
* Name your kids Willow, Trig and Track, you're a maverick.


* Graduate from Harvard law School and you are unstable.
* Attend 5 different small colleges before graduating, you're well grounded.


* If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer, become the first black President of the Harvard Law Review, create a voter registration drive that registers 150,000 new voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional Law professor, spend 8 years as a State Senator representing a district with over 750,000 people, become chairman of the state Senate's Health and Human Services committee, spend 4 years in the United States Senate representing a
state of 13 million people while sponsoring 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and Veteran's Affairs committees, you don't have any real leadership experience.
* If your total resume is: local weather girl, 4 years on the city council and 6 years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000 people, 20 months as the governor of a state with only 650,000 people, then you're qualified to become the country's second highest ranking executive.


* If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while raising 2 beautiful daughters, all within Protestant churches, you're not a real Christian.
* If you cheated on your first wife with a rich heiress, and left your disfigured wife and married the heiress the next month, you're a Christian.


* If you teach responsible, age appropriate sex education, including the proper use of birth control, you are eroding the fiber of society.
* If , while governor, you staunchly advocate abstinence only, with no other option in sex education in your state's school system while your unwed teen daughter ends up pregnant , you're very responsible.


* If your wife is a Harvard graduate laywer who gave up a position in a prestigious law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city community, then gave that up to raise a family, your family's values don't represent America's.
* If you're husband is nicknamed 'First Dude', with at least one DWI conviction and no college education, who didn't register to vote until age 25 and once was a member of a group that advocated the secession of Alaska from the USA, your family is extremely admirable.

 
526Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 16:21
Obama says he voted for it because it inserted language about predators and increased the grades at which the students would be reached about it. Nothing you posted brings that into doubt.

Now we are getting somewhere. I'm not casting doubt on Obama's motives here. I'm casting doubt on his accusation that McCain is a despicable liar because McCain was pointing out some inconvenient (for Obama) aspects of SB99.

You can vote for a bill because of its predator language and simultaneously vote for a bill that expands teaching about STD's to certain kindergartners (albeit that STD content will be discussed in an "age-appropriate manner", whatever the heck that means). Indeed, I think that is what he did and he's trying to cover it up by launching a flagrant counteraccusation.

Tax 525 -- not really sure that's worth responding to.
 
527Perm Dude
      ID: 3825168
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 16:30
Ha! McCain didn't post inconvenient aspects of the bill. You're calling that ad far more nuanced that it actually was. McCain conveyed the idea that Obama wanted to teach kindergartners all about sex.
 
528Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 16:57
I get stupid emails all the time too, Tax. I usually just delete them.

Sorry to see you're being spammed. Might I suggest a spam filter?
 
529Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 17:37
PD

Sooner or later some enterprising person is going to connect up the enabling language in the laws with exactly what liberals have taught kindergartners under that innocuous license. Or maybe a googler with time on his hands.
 
530Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 17:55
Boldwin's right. Liberals (i.e. 50% of Americans) are in favor of teaching 5 year olds about herpes.
 
531Perm Dude
      ID: 3825168
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 18:03
It sounds like a great way for a wingnut to spend their time. Lots and lots of time...

Meanwhile, FactCheck.org takes apart Corsi's "dull hatchet job" on Obama
 
532Perm Dude
      ID: 3825168
      Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 18:46
I've seen similar charts, but Andrew Sullivan made a post which includes this:



This is just personal income taxes, but it is pretty clear where both Obama and McCain's tax policy philosophies lie when they are laid out like this.
 
533Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 00:30
To be honestly illuminating that graph should also represent what percentage of their incomes those segments are already paying in taxes.
 
534Perm Dude
      ID: 3825168
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 00:54
The graph doesn't show that (I don't know how it could). It really is answering a different question: It only shows what the percentage difference between taxes right now and taxes under the two different plans.
 
535Taxman
      ID: 3985420
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 01:00
Razor..post 530..Boldwin's right. Liberals (i.e. 50% of Americans) are in favor of teaching 5 year olds about herpes.

Same embarassing (for you) tact Boldwin uses. Give your statement credibility...add a reference or link. BTW..Boldwin is not a cedible source.

Why don't you test your theary and poll the "liberals" posting in this forum and determine how many favor teaching 5 yr olds about herpes?

 
536Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 01:33
Razor #530

Tax #535

Specifically liberals are in favor of letting Obama and a Dem congress do it when they think it appropriate, tho liberals themselves haven't a clue when that is nor do they care. The people advising Obama and the Dem congress say it should start at age 12 according to the provided SEICUS link in the appropriate thread.
 
537Taxman
      ID: 3985420
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 02:04
Boldy Specifically liberals are in favor of letting Obama and a Dem congress do it when they think it appropriate, tho liberals themselves haven't a clue when that is nor do they care.

link?? reference??

You are just making this shit up.
 
538Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 06:59
Anyone who is for Obama's choice for 'age appropriate sex ed for k-x', is by default in favor of SEICUS' curiculum.
 
539Perm Dude
      ID: 3084178
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 09:07
Uh, right. Your obsession has driven you over the age. Game over.

Maybe it would have been better to understand what Obama meant. But, of course, you'd prefer SEICUS to speak for Obama on sex ed, Rev Wright on religious matters, etc etc, rather than what the man himself has said.

Guilt by association. No one tries harder at it than you, Baldwin. Like me at fantasy sports. And just as successful.
 
540Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:41
It's simple elementary logic.

Obama supports SEICUS recommendation.

You support Obama.

Ergo you by default support SEICUS' recommendation. If you want to claim a more nuanced intellectual position feel free but you still effectively lend your support to it. You enable it.
 
541Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:42
Assuming you vote Obama.
 
542Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:46
PD

Are you actually trying to say that Obama can back the SEICUS/Planned Parenthood curiculum and still claim he is only backing the 1/100 portion of it relevent to innappropriate touching?
 
543Perm Dude
      ID: 3084178
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:51
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that Obama backs his own plan. All else is dross.
 
544Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:57
Yeah, he drew it up on the back of an envelope at Starbucks. He has been dreaming starry eyed ever since he was a professor with an education plan in his coat pocket next to his heart.

PD, get real. His team took it off the shelf from the sort of people lefties look to as experts in the field.
 
545DWetzel at work
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:06
540: To rephrase to make sure I understand...

So, by simple elementary logic, if one supports a candidate in what is essentially a two-party system, one must by definition 100% support every single bit of every position that that candidate holds?

It's not just slightly possible to say "I agree with A on 80% of things where the two candidates differ, and B on 20%, so I'm going to support A even though I don't agree with them on everything?"

Nice logic.
 
546Perm Dude
      ID: 3084178
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:07
ROFL! You're telling me to "Get real" after the series of posts you just made! Hahahaha.

"Boogeymen and bagmen and badmen! Wooooo! They are all shadowly behind everything and if you don't believe me or demand proof I'll call you naive!"

Good one, B.
 
547Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:25
The Obama campaign sent out the SIECUS guidelines to MSNBC when asked about this issue last year. - SOURCE
 
548Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:33
But I'm not allowed to hold him or his supporters accountable for supporting it.

And when the kindergartener teacher refuses to tell me he has prompted my 5 yr old to feel good about his being gay, explained masterbation to him, and refocused his attention onto sexual matters as if there was some shortage of it in this culture and that's what being a 5 year old is all about...

...heaven forfend I should hold you or Obama accountable.
 
549Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 12:34
And when the kindergartener teacher refuses to tell me he has prompted my 5 yr old to feel good about his being gay,

he should instead tell him to kill himself?

explained masterbation to him

m-a-s-t-u-r-b-a-t-i-o-n. there's a U in there baldwin. if you're going to attempt to discuss the same topic over and over, at least learn to spell it correctly.

and refocused his attention onto sexual matters as if there was some shortage of it in this culture and that's what being a 5 year old is all about...

i must have missed the part where the teacher is supposed to instruct the child to go jack off to gay porn. oh, wait. that only happened in your twisted little mind, which is why i missed it.
 
550Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 13:20
Feel free to actually read the points in the SEICUS/Obama recommendations for yourself, instead of repeatedly asking me to read them to you.

BTW 5 year olds are not currently committing suicide because of some current lack of gay awareness indoctrination and a precious few years of innocent childhood isn't going to kill them. Neither I nor the typical 5 year old are sex obsessed and I think it should stay that way. Unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about you or the successors to Kinsey and Sanger.

 
551Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 13:40
Neither I nor the typical 5 year old are sex obsessed and I think it should stay that way. Unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about you or the successors to Kinsey and Sanger.

you spend a lot more time here talking about sex than anyone else, so in this forum you're far more obsessed. granted, repression will do that to someone, so i suppose you can't totally be faulted. as Jessica Rabbit once said, you can't help it, you're just drawn that way.

i recommend sodomy, with a consenting adult partner. it's much more fun to do it, than to talk about it.
 
552Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 14:02
If only 5 year olds could remain as blissfully unaquainted with the people at SEICUS and Planned Parenthood, as you are unaquainted with taste.
 
553Perm Dude
      ID: 3084178
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 14:02
Baldwin is, at best, being disingenuous in his points, tree. Taking a little here, a little there to try to get others to speak for Obama rather than letting his own words speak for themselves (for to do so would be to deflate their arguments. Can't have that--more important to press on despite the facts).

In Baldwin's own link there is an obvious bait-and-switch: When asked about his support of the sex ed changes, Obama pointed out that he supports "age appropriate" education and stressed that he did not support teaching all students at every level everything about sex--to do so would not, in fact, be age appropriate.

Despite this clear statement, Baldwin's link points to another statement by SEICUS in order to prove black is white and up is down. Bait-and-switch.

Baldwin can't win on the issues, so he has to win by trickery. Which God is it that condones such tactics?

Baldwin: Doesn't your religion teach you to stay out of politics so that you are not tempted by the very same types of un-Christian acts you generate on these boards?
 
554Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 14:18
Baldwin is, at best, being disingenuous in his points, tree.

obviously. it's gotten to the point where the paper bag would beat him in a debate, because his points aren't relative, he speaks in glittering generalities, he'll accept subterfuge and falsehoods as perfectly ok methods to defend one's point, and so on.

it's much more fun to poke sticks at him to see how he'll react...for example:

If only 5 year olds could remain as blissfully unaquainted with the people at SEICUS and Planned Parenthood, as you are unaquainted with taste.

i avoid eating asparagus. *I*, taste fine.
 
555Perm Dude
      ID: 3084178
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 16:29
Nice punching by Obama.
 
556Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 17:25
staff meeting...i literally was LOL on that one...ZAP!
 
557Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 19:23
The "Palin boost" as vanished.

The contest appears to be roughly where it was before the two conventions and before the vice presidential selections: Mr. Obama has the support of 48 percent of registered voters, compared with 43 percent for Mr. McCain, a difference within the poll’s margin of sampling error, and statistically unchanged from the tally in the last New York Times/CBS News Poll in mid-August.

The notion that Palin has brought white women into the McCain fold is not the case. McCain has closed the "enthusiasm gap", though.
The poll also underlined the extent to which Mr. McCain’s convention — and his selection of Ms. Palin — had excited Republican base voters about his candidacy, a development that is no small thing in a contest that continues to be so tight: 47 percent of Mr. McCain’s supporters described themselves as enthused about the Republican party’s presidential ticket, almost twice what it was before the conventions. As often happens at this time of year, partisans are coalescing around their party’s nominees and independents are increasingly the battleground.

But the Times/CBS News poll suggested that Ms. Palin’s selection has, to date, helped Mr. McCain only among Republican base voters; there was no evidence of significantly increased support for him among female voters in general. White women are evenly divided between Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama; before the conventions, Mr. McCain led Mr. Obama among white women by a margin of 44 percent to 37 percent.

By contrast, at this point in the 2004 campaign, President Bush was leading Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the Democratic challenger, by 56 percent to 37 percent among white women.
 
558Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 22:29
I've seen good [Palin] results among male white swing voters [not mentioned in your poll] so if poll numbers interest you...
 
559Perm Dude
      ID: 3084178
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 01:08
"The Rain in Spain Falls Mainly on McCain"
 
560Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 09:04
RE: 559

I'd put that vital bit of information somewhere between being able to name all 57 states and being able to give the American spelling for all edible tubers as far as importance.
 
561walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 10:16
Yeah, but likely somewhat above the line of being able to see Russia from one's state.
 
562Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 10:22
Re: 559 ... I'd also argue that it would be useful to know who the American International Group is. Not like that was a planned statement or anything versus extemporaneous remarks.

Of course, it would also be nice if any of the candidates could take a 1-hour timeout on the trail, learn something about what the Fed and Treasury are actually doing now, and then comment intelligently.

There are real issues that should be discussed. Instead, one candidate is hung up on blaming it on the Bush administration and some canard about deregulation and the other candidate is proposing yet another commission, seemingly entirely forgetting much more reasonable measures he supported back in 2005. Pathetic.
 
563walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 10:36
NYT, Gail Collins: The McCain of the Week

The irony given the title of this thread...what is real?
 
564Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 11:38
Walk -- that's why I could never be a politician. I honestly don't understand the complication here.

The productivity of the American worker has continued to climb throughout this crisis. The key challenge is that the financial sector has simultaneously boosted that productivity through innovation and played its normal role in economic growth throughout this time period. The financial crisis has, I think, been largely contained, as evidenced by the continued access to credit for those who are credit-worthy. But as default rates have risen we now have a balance sheet / solvency crisis, accelerated by mark-to-market accounting and other factors. Again, this is not a fundamental economic crisis in a traditional sense. This is an accounting / solvency crisis. We still don't know whether AIG's credit insurance is really solvent, all we know is that they are no longer to access capital at reasonable rates to continue to do business. Which is why the Fed stepped in with the loan.

It is quite possible that the Fed is going to make some serious money on this deal, since they almost by definition will be able to ride this storm out. Of course, others think that the Fed is going to lose its shirt, which is why there is risk here and it's why AIG and others have had to mark down their assets.

Regardless, the reason the Fed and Treasury are taking all of these actions is to *prevent* the spread of these financial problems into the mainstream economy. I'm not sure they'll be entirely successful; I tend to think a recession is on order regardless. I tend to think this not because of these crises themselves, but because of imbalances that are going to take time to work through ... real estate agents and construction workers are going to have to (indirectly) retool to export producing industries and other growth sectors.

But the long-run growth fundamentals, centered on worker productivity, education, skills, market flexibility, etc., are still in place. The events of the past few days are more like the recession of 1907 (short painful recession limited in damage by JP Morgan's financial interventions, the role now played by Paulson and Bernanke) than the events of the Great Depression (long and painful depression exacerbated in damage by the Fed's tightening of the money supply, protectionist trade policies and uncertain economic climate). IMO.

Regardless of whether I'm correct or incorrect, my beliefs are self-consistent are mirror McCain's comments, roughly.
 
565Perm Dude
      ID: 57831187
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 11:57
I largely agree with you, Madman, except to say that McCain's points are noteful for what they don't say: The role of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in making this crisis more acute.

It is notable because rarely does an opportunity pass by a GOP politician to blame the government for making things worse, which is what has happened here. This is like bringing about a level playing field by removing the refs. While "call your own fouls" might work in a pickup basketball game, in a money game you better get some guys in striped shirts on the floor.

With Gramm advising McCain on economic issues I think McCain is only half-right with his declarations of economic soundness. He needs to set up some clear guidelines for what happened, why it happened, and what he'll do about it. So far his comments have lacked any specificity on the points, making his sudden conversion to an economic populist seem a bit opportunistic (at best).

I'm not sure I entirely agree with Obama's plan but his is (as usual) many degrees above McCain in specificity and focus on the issue.
 
566Perm Dude
      ID: 57831187
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 14:21
The Spain gaffe seems to be having more life than I would have thought, mostly because the McCain spokespeople seem intent on shooting themselves in the foot, repeatedly, about this:

Email from Randy Scheuneman referring to the Prime Minister of Spain as "President" and saying that McCain meant what he said (whatever that is)

Meanwhile, the interviewer believes he wasn't confused about Spain not being in Latin America, but just wanted to avoid the question. By way of background, George Bush is still pissed that Spain pulled its troops out of Iraq (they are still in Afghanistan) and has refused to meet with the Spanish Prime Minister despite several requests.

I think that this falls into one of those "gaffes on the campaign trail" areas. Happens in a campaign sometimes, and while I would have liked McCain to have boned up on Spain a bit before sitting down for the interview, this kind of thing happens. And Josh Marshall appears to exhaustively believe the same thing. But, like Bush, this refusal to admit a tiny mistake might end up giving much more play to a small thing and could nudge the news cycle in a direction McCain won't want it to go, and at a critical time for him.
 
567Perm Dude
      ID: 228261817
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 18:28
FactCheck.org catches McCain, um, projecting, it seems

The McCain campaign argues in its documentation for this ad that, whatever Obama says he would do, he will eventually be forced to break his promise and raise taxes more broadly to pay for his promised spending programs.

Fact be damned! The mess our party left the country in will force Obama to break from his plans and raise all sorts of taxes! So vote McCain!
 
568Madman
      ID: 7538321
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 21:46
I don't see the GLBA as the main "culprit" in this situation, but dunno. To the extent there is a boogeyman, it's the out-dated financial services regulation bureacracy and regs ... in fact, I think you could make an argument that the Treasury is right now operating in an unconstitutional and unauthorized fashion.

There were a large number of "factors" ... I don't see it as a simple story on any dimension.

Disappointed in McCain's statement today, throwing Cox out to dry. I obviously disagree, for the most part, with that criticism, as well. Again, I couldn't get elected.

The tax situation is a bit odd ... factcheck.org is correctly representing the best estimates available. I don't see the existence of those estimates as obviating the applicability of the spending criticism, however, and the logical extension of that spending to future tax increases. Especially given the Dem's history (Clinton '92, Clinton '96 where tax cut promises were broken). It's one thing to spend $x billion over a finite period, and its quite another to offer open-ended spending proposals that fundamentally alter the role of government in our society. I'm especially thinking about the absolutely huge reinsurance payments Obama wants to make to the health insurance industry. That has the potential to quickly escalate out of control.

A reasonable debate would bring those points up, and it admittedly opens up McCain for criticism, as well, since his policies also defer tax increases, as noted in the article.
 
569Perm Dude
      ID: 228261817
      Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 22:14
I don't see the existence of those estimates as obviating the applicability of the spending criticism

Absolutely. I think McCain has some ammo he could be using, but not only not using that ammo while criticizing the future Obama for breaking promises sets them back quite a bit.

If I were McCain, I'd be going after Obama's full-throated support for the pork-lade Farm Bill, which raises the price of food, subsidizes corn to the extent that it is now the largest non-nutritive additive to food (making our food much less healthy overall), and actually rewards agribusiness at the expense of smaller family farms.

And that's just on the surface.
 
570Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, Sep 19, 2008, 11:48
If I were McCain, I'd be going after Obama's full-throated support for the pork-lade Farm Bill, which raises the price of food, subsidizes corn to the extent that it is now the largest non-nutritive additive to food (making our food much less healthy overall), and actually rewards agribusiness at the expense of smaller family farms.

Although that one kills him in Iowa (which, if I were him, I'd write off). Also weakens him in MT and ND and that Dem congressional district in NE.

I'd go after him on the energy bill for similar reasons ... dunno. I'm politically tone deaf, so who knows about the politics.

But I do know that both Obama's and McCain's proposals, as is, are DOA. Just too divorced from reality. That means any literal criticism or defense of their "plans" is a waste of time.
 
571Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Fri, Sep 19, 2008, 18:15
Speaking of throwing Cox under the bus, Dems genuinely upset about Palin's troopergate' and Reps still upset by 'travelgate' are gonna go nuclear once McCain gets to firing people.

I buy the 'he's a hothead' label entirely.
 
572biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Sep 20, 2008, 00:14
McCain wants to make health care sector more like the financial service sector.

Zoinks!

This from the guy who thinks the economy is humming right along.

What a freakin' joke. How out of touch can one person be? Amd from a freakin' presidential candidate who's in a dead-heat?

I guess the real question is how out of touch can half of America be?
 
573Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Sun, Sep 21, 2008, 07:32
That comment from someone who wants to make the health sector more like the DMV.
 
574walk
      ID: 6845166
      Sun, Sep 21, 2008, 08:40
Frank Rich, NYT, The Return of Truthiness

A long list of lies and "un-reminded" mistakes made by McCain over the years that have not gotten the same media play as say things like Wright or whether Obama is a Muslim. Boggles my mind that this election is close.
 
575Razor
      ID: 248281419
      Sun, Sep 21, 2008, 23:53
That comment from someone who wants to make the health sector more like the DMV.

The more apt analogy would have been VA, but that would have made you look foolish.
 
576Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 00:15
Do you want your healthcare delivered VA style? Not me.
 
577Perm Dude
      ID: 37823219
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 00:42
Somehow the government's ability to deliver health care to John McCain helped him recover from horific injuries enough to run for President at age 72. John McCain has never been off government health care to my knowledge.

Nevertheless, the way we treat our veterans is a crime. These soldiers were foreign policy pawns by the Administration overseas, and are their domestic policy pawns now that they have returned. McCain's treatment of veteran services should be much, much better than it is.
 
578Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 01:03
The question isn't can you survive the VA for 72 years. I'd focus more on the 'criminal treatment' part when answering whether you want our healthcare brought to that level.
 
579Perm Dude
      ID: 37823219
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 01:12
Our VA healthcare system was better before this current Administration. I don't think we need to look at what the VA has been reduced to in order to debate whether the health care plan that Obama (for instance) is good or bad. Obama isn't proposing a VA-style health care system.
 
580Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 02:19
It's more of a torture chamber than a healthcare service. "Hurry up and get in line" till you die. Just what they wanted to hear the rest of their lives after getting out of the military.

But of course it's humming along whenever a dem gets in office. Huh, PD?! Model of efficiency then, huh? And they've got free healthcare in Cuba too. Just ask a Dem.
 
581Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 09:25
Uh, right, Baldwin. No one is saying that they are a "model of efficiency." Certainly I didn't. I was clear that the system clearly tanked during this Administration--and it is clear why. Lack of planning (haven't we heard that before about this war? Somewhere....?).

You want to continue to make argue against points no one is making by all means. But if you want to be in on the discussion you shouldn't marginalize yourself like that.
 
582Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 12:14
What evidence do you have for such an accusation? Or is that just based on the partisan assumption that Dems have more gratitude towards the service of veterans?

Just because Dems like to play god with other people's lives, it does not make them good planners. It does contribute to their demonstrated hubris however.
 
583Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 12:19
Evidence for what "accusation" exactly?
 
584Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 12:49
That somehow the VA suddenly fell off a cliff and lost the benefit of all planning the second Dems lost the WH. Granted socialist quagmires are their area of familiarity if not expertise.
 
585Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 12:58
Is that what I said?:

Our VA healthcare system was better before this current Administration.

Reading comprehension needs a little work, B.

But gimme just a bit and I'll prove what I said. Just don't expect me to try to prove your distortion of what I said.
 
586Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 13:04
By the way, if you think this is some kind of analogy for Obama's health care plan you are more of an idiot than I thought. Obama wants to allow access to health care insurance to anyone who wants it. He's not proposing opening up hospitals and running them.
 
587walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 13:19
Any views on the pair of 60 Minute interviews last night with Obama and McCain? I saw them both. Both came across as caring and passionate about their causes. The questions were not the same for each, naturally, and I wish they had asked some different one's. McCain's answer about Palin's readiness was disconcerting to me, and his insistence that his view on the surge is the be-all tell-all on the Iraq war is also sorta micro. I liked how McCain said he would pick a certain Dem, Andrew Cuomo, to be in his cabinet, and that he would reach across party lines to govern. (I have no idea if Cuomo per se is qualified for the role he indicated). I did not like the non-answer about McCain being anti-regulation when it came to finance and now that is part of the current problem Wall St. is facing.

Obama's answer about White who would not vote for him, no matter, was classy ("it's a wash cos there are Blacks who will vote for me cos I am Black") cos it's a dang shame he has to deal with that. His point about being right in the first place about Iraq was a good one, as was his point about Pakistan and Al Quaeda, now that Bush is doing what he suggested. I felt Obama could have gone further in going back to his original platform, about being a change agent for the future, and not just more of the same ol same ol. I wish more people also listened to his background and realized that he aint the elite one, far from it. I just don't get that stuff. Such misinformation and quick decisions by the populace. Leaders chosen based on fear. I hope he perseveres.
 
588Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 14:03
I was clear that the system clearly tanked during this Administration--and it is clear why. Lack of planning - PD

Stop pretending you didn't say it and start backing it up.
 
589Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 14:09
I'm calling you out, Baldwin, with this silly VA nonsense. SHUT THE FUĆK UP already. This is a thread about John McCain, not healthcare or the VA. Let's stick to the issues. You've already have a stupid flame war with Tree in another thread, how about trying to act halfway intelligent in the rest of the threads.
 
590Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 14:49
I would like to see someone prove that "Obama wants to allow access to health care insurance to anyone who wants it. He's not proposing opening up hospitals and running them. " [i -PD]

Just how much of a socialist is he with regards to healthcare? Hillary certainly was for socializing healthcare. We have some reason to think Obama belongs more to the free market school of thot?

If that isn't fair subject for comment whatever would be?
 
591Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 14:56
Sure. So long as you aren't thinking that Obama wants to open up hospitals.

Have you read his proposal, or summaries of it? He's far less "socialist" than Clinton or Edwards was, mostly (as has been noted before) that he was making it voluntary.
 
592Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 15:55
How does he maintain his perfect 100% liberal score in his voting record then? Will he veto Hillarycare then when she repackages it and resubmits it?
 
593Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 16:38
You must not have been paying attention during the primary when Obama came under huge amounts of fire from the netroots for not taking on the mandatory aspects of Clinton's plan. He didn't change it then, so it is unlikely that he'll make it mandatory now.
 
594Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 17:28
McCain camp's complaint about being called liars is itself full of lies.

McCain: "Why aren't you in the Press doing more to talk about these things that aren't true?"

When asked to respond to a New York Times story that McCain's campaign manager was paid $2 million by Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac to reduce regulation of those organizations, Steve Schmidt responds that "whatever the New York Times once was" it is no longer a journalistic entity.

I'm not sure, exactly, what Schmidt believes a journalistic entity does. But I'm feeling that all these jokers will be blacklisted from future GOP campaigns once the fallout from this campaign settles.
 
595Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 18:15
He could have always pointed out the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac paid Obama SIX times as much money!

Glass houses and throwing stones. Ring a bell, PD?

And no one is getting thrown out of the republican party for pointing out the NYT has long since dropped out of the jounalism profession.
 
596Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 18:50
Math is a problem for you, Baldwin? McCain's campaign manager was hired specifically to deregulate them--$2 million dollars worth.

Obama took $6000 from a PAC. Big whoop. That's all you got?
 
597walk
      ID: 6845166
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 21:15
Socialist, socialist, socialist, socialist. That's what the bailout of the banks is, socialism. Gotta do it though...Who was in charge during this dergulation? Who voted and pushed for deregulation? Freakin losers. All of us, cos of the republicans.
 
598Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 21:36
No, this isn't socialism at all. If it were the whole thing would be highly regulated and the state would get at least a cut of the profits going into the future.

This is a Republican government, in which planned deregulation has failed to such a degree that nothing short of a quick and large cash infusion by the government can help some of the largest companies in the world buffetted by their own business choices. This is the government taking out hundreds of billions of dollars in loans to take the bad debt off the hands of those who don't want to sell it at what the open market will pay for it.

This ain't your father's GOP.
 
599Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 22:24
The Democrats are just as much to blame as the Republicans. Neither party represents the average citizen anymore. They support lobbyists and big corporations.

If you want more of the same - vote Democrat
If you want more of the same - vote Republican


 
600Astade
      ID: 488102222
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 23:10
Re #598:

Thank you Andrew Sullivan....err, Perm Dude

 
601Boldwin
      ID: 588192222
      Mon, Sep 22, 2008, 23:28
Obama took $6000 from a PAC. Big whoop. That's all you got? - PD

And by that standard McCain took $0 dollars from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac PAC's. Including employees and board members Obama got 6 times the campaign contribuitions that McCain did.

Want to count the lobbyists on both campaign committees? Obama has 3 times the lobbyists on his staff than McCain does. You prolly don't want to go down that road.
 
602Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 00:19
3 times, you say?

I have no trouble weighing Obama's staff against the likes of Randy "Georgia Lobbyist" Scheunemann, Rick "Fannie" Davis and Charlie Black. None at all.

McCain's money breakdown: About $841K from lobbyists.
 
603Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 00:22
Astade: I've been reading Sullivan on this a bit, but he is more of a bundler than anything else on the issue of the bailout. I do believe that if a Democratic President proposed half of what the Bush Administration has proposed that we'd be hearing howls of protest from the Right.

But the last 8 years have demonstrated that the GOP is more interested in party unity than personal political integrity.
 
604Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 00:27
13 cars?
 
605Boldwin
      ID: 588192222
      Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 05:30
It's really too funny that with Obama having been the second largest recipient of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae campaign contributions, PD thinks this is the issue to jump on.
 
606Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 09:21
Uh, no. You can't even get your issues right. Nice try to change targets however, once you realized that McCain's lobbyist problem wasn't going to help you. Here's a hint: Obama takes no money from federally-registered lobbyists. McCain has taken a ton of money from them.

The point is that McCain's campaign director took in $2 million, over 5 years, for his company to lobby Congress to deregulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And McCain is the man to bring "change" to Washington? If by "change" McCain means "the coinage Rick Davis didn't spend from his $2 million" I would grant your point.
 
607Boldwin
      ID: 588192222
      Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 10:08
You know perfectly well there are more holes in Obama's claim to distance from lobbyists than swiss cheese. He didn't even make the 'pledge' till he had gotten enuff of their money in the first place, he has @ 37 'recent' [like last month] lobbyists on his staff, he accepts money from bundlers of special interest contributions and law firms representing lobbying interests and frankly there is more hole than substance to the claim he is keeping lobbyists at arm's length. Frankly it is shameful for you [and him] to even make the claim while trying to maintain a straight face.
 
608Perm Dude
      ID: 49822228
      Tue, Sep 23, 2008, 10:49
I don't think you want to go the shameful route, Baldwin, if by "shameful" you mean "shouldn't make an argument with a straight face." In this case, all of McCain's top staff, including his campaign director, are lobbyists. You're trying to counter this with Obama taking money from law firms "with lobbying interests"? Puhleaze.

There is a huge difference between accepting donations and having those people run the campaign. It is the difference between saying "you'll be at the table when we discuss things of interest to your industry" and "here--why not write the law yourself?"
 
609Perm Dude
      ID: 23829248
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 09:40
It's OK--Davis was paid to do, well, nothing, it seems.

$15,000/month? What is this, the NCAA?
 
610walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 09:50
On top of all those negative ads alleging Obama's weak links to Rainey. The joy of politics.
 
611Boldwin
      ID: 548152320
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 10:10
PD

A bundler walks in with $250k and he's gonna be suggesting language and that's a fact.
 
612Perm Dude
      ID: 23829248
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 10:19
They all suggest language (do you have no idea of how the process works?). They all submit drafts all the time. Hell, I'm on a small borough Planning Commission and the lawyers for the applicants submit suggested SALDO and Zoning language changes every other meeting, it seems.

But there is a difference between suggesting language for the law and allowing asking them to actually write the law.
 
613Perm Dude
      ID: 23829248
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 10:22
BTW, I'm not convinced, as some have suggested, that Davis' company was getting $15K/month for his no-show lobbying job in anticipation of a future McCain White House access. Even just back in February it wasn't clear that McCain was going anywhere--I doubt even a cash-flush Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae would be throwing about that much cash for that reason.

I think Davis was essentially on retainer. And the payments to his company? They stopped just last month.
 
614Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 15:11
McCain seeks to delay debate to focus on economy

i'm sorry..what?!?!!?!?
 
615boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 15:34
McCain seeks to delay debate to focus on economy

i'm sorry..what?!?!!?!?


wait is mccain suggest that they actually got back and did their jobs? I mean it is rather convenient timing but still maybe they should do there jobs as senators.
 
616Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 15:43
Very, very shrewd move by McCain. What's Obama going to do? Call him out for doing his job? McCaing comes out looking like a leader on this one by forcing Obama to follow suit. Additionally, he looks like a uniter for trying to include Obama in discussions with President Bush.

Kudos to the people who came up with this tactic.
 
617Perm Dude
      ID: 23829248
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 15:55
Not shrewd at all. Remember, Obama has the same job.

This is a test of whether McCain can handle more than one big thing at a time. And he's failing the test if he puts off the debate.
 
618Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 16:00
What's Obama going to do? Call him out for doing his job?

if McCain can't handle taking a couple hours away on a FRIDAY NIGHT for a debate, then he sure as $hit can't handle the rigors of being president.
 
619Perm Dude
      ID: 23829248
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 16:33
It was John McCain who insisted that this first debate be about foreign policy (Obama wanted to make it about domestic issues, including the economy). Now McCain wants to duck out rather than change the topic, it seems.

Harry Reid: If there were ever a time for both candidates to hold a debate before the American people about this serious challenge, it is now.
 
620boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 16:41
It was John McCain who insisted that this first debate be about foreign policy (Obama wanted to make it about domestic issues, including the economy). Now McCain wants to duck out rather than change the topic, it seems.

Harry Reid: If there were ever a time for both candidates to hold a debate before the American people about this serious challenge, it is now.


to bad this debate will be on foreign policy not the bail out or economics. I would really like to see the debate on the bailout/economics i am sure Obama would "win" but i think that it would be interesting.
 
621Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 16:48
Not shrewd at all. Remember, Obama has the same job.

That's exactly why it is shrewd. It leaves Obama in the position of either not going and looking like he is more interested in running for President than doing his job or following McCain's lead.

Americans don't like the idea of officeholders taking two years off to campaign for another job, but they put up with it. McCain will use this move to portay himself as a man who puts his duty and his country first rather than the personal gain of running his Presidential campaign.
 
622Perm Dude
      ID: 23829248
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 17:03
My point is that Obama has already demonstrated the ability to do both (McCain has already developed a reputation for missing votes)--a factoid I expect Obama will jump on in the debate. How can you reform Washington when you aren't there?). McCain has missed more than 64% of the votes this current year (Obama has missed just under half).

 
623Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 17:21
Does voting present actually count? Earns him as much credit as a committee chair that he never uses to call a hearing.
 
624Perm Dude
      ID: 23829248
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 17:26
I don't believe there is an option for voting "present" in the Senate. Good question, though. I'll dig around.
 
625Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 18:00
Start here perhaps.
 
626Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 18:18
As far as I can tell no, you can't vote present in the Senate.

Lefties may want to check out a rigorous analysis from a far left POV at the votes he missed and the substantive acts he engaged in.
 
627Tree
      ID: 568152418
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 19:17
nice distraction there.

Baldwin - what are your thoughts on McCain pulling out of the debate? do you believe he's doing the right thing?
 
628Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 19:56
I have no opinion on that.
 
629Tree
      ID: 568152418
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 20:01
of course not. how's that sand you're sticking your head in?
 
630Perm Dude
      ID: 428422418
      Wed, Sep 24, 2008, 23:07
Sarah Palin needs to step in for McCain in the first debate.
 
631Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 07:23
Sarah Palin needs to step in for McCain in the first debate.

Talk about a no-win situation for Obama...

Actually, maybe Biden could step in for McCain and then he and Obama could debate whether there should really be zero clean coal plants in the US or the merits of Obama's disgusting (I think that's how Biden put it) smear ads or perhaps thet could just discuss how "clean and well=spoken" Obama is, go on about how strange it would have been for FDR to have been pretending to be president on non-edxistent televisions in 1929 and end with a few Indian-7/11 jokes.. Now that would be TV worth watching.
 
632Perm Dude
      ID: 8845258
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 10:38
I'd heard about this last night, but only just found the video. Here's Letterman's reaction to McCain's cancelling on him to "get on the plane" back to Washington, then finding McCain at an interview with Katie Couric:

 
633Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 12:06
good stuff. mccain totally deserves that zinger.

and keith olbermann is one funny man. i'm sure, some how, dave is being sexist toward Palin for mocking McCain dissing him.

Veal Piccata.
 
634Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 13:24
i like this quote...

Paul Begala, a Democratic strategist, said the debate is the most important thing the candidates could do right now.

"It's preposterous that we can't have a presidential debate in the middle of this economic crisis. We had a presidential campaign in 1864, when Sherman was marching on Atlanta. We had a presidential election in 1944, when D-Day was going on in Normandy," he said. "We can have a debate on Friday. In fact, it's probably the most important thing McCain and them could be doing, would be to debate the issues."
 
635Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 13:38
Sign the petition to urge McCain to stop being such a chickenshit and step up to the podium.
 
636walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 14:53
NYT, The Board: The Debate Debate
 
637Perm Dude
      ID: 48482515
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 17:02
When "suspended" means, well, nothing.

McCain hasn't apparently put out the word to his actual campaign of what "suspend" means.

The debate is still listed on McCain's home page.
 
638Tree
      ID: 178212518
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 19:35
McCain is truly turning into a joke. i feel like i'm watching the presidential campaign as written and directed by Christopher Guest.

all we need now are Eugene Levy and Catherine O'Hara to show up, although, they'd make a fine McCain and Palin in the movie version.

Parker Posey can play Bristol Palin.

Jennifer Coolidge would be a PERFECT Cindy McCain, and I kinda like Fred Willard as Todd Palin...
 
639Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 19:37
Ok, now I do have an opinion on this.

It's the same reason Bush didn't lay the blame directly on the liberal lap it belngs. Because the problem is too dire and any solution will take both sides to negotiate in good faith.

In the same vein McCain had to know before going into debate whether Obama was going to try and solve the problem or score selfish political points and let the country go down the tubes...

...or if Obama was going to show some sense of proper priorities and help solve it.
 
640WiddleAvi
      ID: 323531619
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 20:30
Talk about the Messiah going back to washington to save us all....
 
641Perm Dude
      ID: 48482515
      Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 20:49
Yeah--he had to "suspend" his campaign to do it, it seems.

I think it is interesting that for the meeting with President Bush that Obama took his Senate legislative assistant, while McCain took a campaign assistant.
 
642walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 09:50
Brooks, NYT: Thinking About McCain

It’s not that he has changed his political personality that bothers me. I’ve come to accept that in this media-circus environment, you simply cannot run for president as a candid, normal person.

Nor is it, primarily, the dishonest ads he is running. My friends in the Obama cheering section get huffy about them, while filtering from their consciousness all the dishonest ads Obama has run — the demagogic DHL ad, the insulting computer ad, the cynical Rush Limbaugh ad, the misleading Social Security ad and so on. If one candidate has sunk lower than the other at this point, I’ve lost track.

No, what disappoints me about the McCain campaign is it has no central argument. I had hoped that he would create a grand narrative explaining how the United States is fundamentally unprepared for the 21st century and how McCain’s worldview is different.

McCain has not made that sort of all-encompassing argument, so his proposals don’t add up to more than the sum of their parts. Without a groundbreaking argument about why he is different, he’s had to rely on tactical gimmicks to stay afloat. He has no frame to organize his response when financial and other crises pop up.
 
643DWetzel at work
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 10:27
It's the same reason Bush didn't lay the blame directly on the liberal lap it belngs.

Anyone who tries to put all the blame for this debacle on "the other guys" needs to just get "I am a partisan wingnut who will say absolutely anything" tattooed on their forehead.
 
644Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 11:51
McCain totally flip flops and will now attend the debate.

good for him. his whole proclamation was stupid in the first place.
 
645Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 14:15
Out of curiousity, how many having a cow about McCain putting the problem ahead of his campaign, would rake their incumbant congressmen over the coals for staying in Washington an extra week working on it and putting their campaigns on hold?
 
646Perm Dude
      ID: 54828269
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 14:20
He didn't put his campaign on hold.
 
647Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 14:24
More or less, yes he did.
 
648Perm Dude
      ID: 54828269
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 14:27
In what way, exactly?

His campaign was busy photoshopping this:

 
649Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 14:45
More or less, yes he did.

you really AREN'T paying attention, are you? either that, or you truly are living you life with your head in the sand.

what exactly did he put on hold? his website was still running, his campaign offices were still hustling and bustling and proudly proclaiming so, and he was busy saying things like "we have to put the campaign on hold" all while playing politics.

heck, even many of his fellow republicans saw through the charade...

"You can't just say, 'World, stop for a moment. I'm going to cancel everything,'" (Former Arkansas Gov. Mike) Huckabee, (a McCain supporter), told reporters Thursday night in Alabama before attending a benefit for the University of Mobile. He said it's more important for voters to hear from the presidential candidates than for them to huddle with fellow senators in Washington.
 
650Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 20:30
1) I am under no obligation to agree with Huckabee.

2) I do not know if McCain and every other player is trying to solve the problem of their campaign contributors or solve the problems of the country.

3) Just in case McCain knows how to prevent a depression and that is his main goal then I would rather he apply himself to that with 100% of his attention and effort for a week. That would be the statesman-like thing to do.

4) He said he would rather win the war than his own election. His actions say he would rather prevent a finacial meltdown than win an election. That is rather appealing.
 
651Astade
      ID: 488102222
      Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 22:05
'League of Democracy'....lol
 
652Perm Dude
      ID: 54828269
      Sat, Sep 27, 2008, 00:50
I betcha they have some cool costumes.
 
653walk
      ID: 5289245
      Sat, Sep 27, 2008, 09:00
NYT, Collins: McCain Bearish on Debates
 
654Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 07:07
From Walk's piece' conclusion...

Barack Obama would just round up a whole roomful of experts and come up with a plan

More like Rahm Emanuel would take Obama out to dinner and then hand Obama the bill.
 
655walk
      ID: 5289245
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 08:19
NYT, McCain and Team have Ties to Gambling Industry
 
656walk
      ID: 5289245
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 08:25
NYT, Frank Rich: Suspend This
 
657walk
      ID: 5289245
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 08:27
NYT, Kristoff: McCain Style Like Bush
 
658Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 10:51
Walk #655

I have been hinting at that ever since McCain got the fever for campaign reform and it took you guys this many year to dig it up.
 
659walk
      ID: 5289245
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 13:04
Okay Boldwin, you got the scoop. Gold star on the fridge for you today...!
 
660Boldwin
      ID: 58582413
      Sun, Sep 28, 2008, 13:40
*beam*
 
661walk
      ID: 98582821
      Mon, Sep 29, 2008, 07:45
NYT, Krugman: The (Real) 3am Call

The real revelation of the last few weeks, however, has been just how erratic Mr. McCain’s views on economics are. At any given moment, he seems to have very strong opinions — but a few days later, he goes off in a completely different direction.

Thus on Sept. 15 he declared — for at least the 18th time this year — that “the fundamentals of our economy are strong.” This was the day after Lehman failed and Merrill Lynch was taken over, and the financial crisis entered a new, even more dangerous stage. But three days later he declared that America’s financial markets have become a “casino,” and said that he’d fire the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission — which, by the way, isn’t in the president’s power. And then he found a new set of villains — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored lenders. (Despite some real scandals at Fannie and Freddie, they played little role in causing the crisis: most of the really bad lending came from private loan originators.) And he moralistically accused other politicians, including Mr. Obama, of being under Fannie’s and Freddie’s financial influence; it turns out that a firm owned by his own campaign manager was being paid by Freddie until just last month.

Then Mr. Paulson released his plan, and Mr. McCain weighed vehemently into the debate. But he admitted, several days after the Paulson plan was released, that he hadn’t actually read the plan, which was only three pages long.

O.K., I think you get the picture.
 
662Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Sep 29, 2008, 17:33
Oops.

McCain takes credit for helping pass the bailout bill which didn't pass. Wonder if he'll take the blame like he tried to take the credit?

The GOP lost their balls, it appears. They are blaming hurt feelings about a Pelosi speech rather than own up to their own votes. Up or down doesn't matter, so long as you have a good reason and own up to it. The GOP can't get their own story straight on this bill.
 
663Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Mon, Sep 29, 2008, 17:51
Is anyone buying this? The GOP votes against the bill and then blames Obama and the Democrats for its failure. Say what? It would take some real ignorance for this sleight of hand to work, but I guess anything's possible after seeing Bush win in 2004.
 
664Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Mon, Sep 29, 2008, 22:08
And then he found a new set of villains — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored lenders. (Despite some real scandals at Fannie and Freddie, they played little role in causing the crisis: most of the really bad lending came from private loan originators.)

Deliberately misleading. Krugman knows full well those other lenders made those loans knowing FM/FM would take them off their hands, repackage them and resell them.
 
665Razor
      ID: 418502723
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 22:48
I have to admit I was wrong. I said that Democrats would never get anywhere focusing on Palin and that she wasn't important. She is turning out to be the worst mistake McCain ever made. Are they really trotting her out there as an agent of change against old Joe Biden while her own running mate would be the oldest first term President ever? I almost feel bad for McCain. I think deep down, he knows he screwed himself and now he is forced to live with it and just throw strategies out there, no matter how ill-concieved. I just can't believe that they are making it so easy. I would have though that they would downplay Palin's inexperience and McCain's age, but they seem willing to take shots at Biden's age and Obama's inexperience, which is just a losing battle for them.

Palin is "the new energy"
 
666Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Thu, Oct 02, 2008, 10:46
Some Palin Biography
 
667Perm Dude
      ID: 2491128
      Thu, Oct 02, 2008, 11:19
McCain digs deeper into the mud.
 
668walk
      ID: 5292522
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 06:33
NYT, Dowd: McCain's Mud
 
669Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 08:47
much is being made of "That One"...
 
670walk
      ID: 2938911
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 12:38
McCain Changes Mortgage Buy Back Plan

Verrrrrrry interesting.
 
671Tree
      ID: 14942910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 13:01
not interesting at all.

more of the same.
 
672walk
      ID: 5292522
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 19:50
NYT, Gail Collins: Clearing the Ayers

Excellent.
 
673Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 21:28
That's a great column by Gail Collins. As I mentioned in a previous post, right wingers revere their former criminals like Gordon Liddy and Ollie North and make them media stars and martyrs.

And as I also mentioned in a previous post, the the Weatherman Underground was a response to our state sponsored terrorism against the Vietnamese.
 
674Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 22:19
PV

So forgive me if I wonder if you and Obama agree with Ayers who recently stated that he should have done more terrorist acts?
 
675Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 22:48
How would I know what Obama agrees with? I don't condone any acts of terrorism, be it by individuals based on ideology or militaries directed by power mad politicians.
 
676Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 03:51
I'm just curious if Ayers or Bernadine Dorn are welcome to your dinner table?



And I paraphrase, because I am out of time to google...

"I think it's really neat that they killed those pigs and then stuck a fork in her, and then sat down and had dinner in the same room."

If the answer is yes, can an invite to Hanibal Lecter be far behind?
 
677Perm Dude
      ID: 19929108
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 09:30
Does Obama sit down with dinner with Ayers?
 
678Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 10:41
Yeah, but he keeps his eye on anyone with a fork.
 
679Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 11:42
can an invite to Hanibal Lecter be far behind

good example by you, as he's as fictional as any of the absurd lies you like to toss around about Obama.
 
680walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 15:48
McCain's Courting Danger

It is irresponsible and catering to fear and hate. Country first! McCain = a$$hole.
 
681tastethewaste
      ID: 12911105
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 20:20
he should be ashamed for starting this
 
682 walk
      ID: 5292522
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 09:54
Amazing video yesterday of McCain giving a mic to a woman in the crowd at a town hall (description of woman beyond necessary...suffice to say Brooks' column on Friday describing the new "class wars" sums it up) and says she's scared of Obama cos he is an "Arab terrorist." McCain explains he's not, he's a decent family man with whom he has fundamental disagreements. McCain also disagreed with another town hall dude who said he was "scared of an Obama presidency." I think it's good that McCain tried to squelch this stuff, but clearly, his campaign and rabid retard running mate Palin created this mob fervor, and now it's out of control with who knows what kinda of awful consequences. With power comes responsibility. They crossed the line, and McCain (alone) knows it. Palin seemingly would not stop such hate talk if there was gun to her moose pet's head. Ugly.

RCP now has Obama up 7.1 across the polls. Stick to the issues guys.
 
683biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 10:13
McCain definitely deserves props for telling that woman she was wrong.
 
684Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 10:31
McCain definitely deserves props for telling that woman she was wrong.

Agreed, but he unwittingly advanced a hateful stereoype by saying, "No, he's a decent family man" as if an Arab is incapable of being a decent family man.

Wonder how that plays in nerveclinic's part of the world.
 
685biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 10:40
Right. Given the crowd however, I'll still give him full credit. What he said probably sank in with them better than a full multi-cultural spiel.
 
686walk
      ID: 5292522
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 10:43
Right, PV...good point. I think given the intellectual capacity of the woman at the mic, and the caveman (apologies to the cool cave dudes in the Geico ads) mentality being fostered at the rallies, it's the best McCain can do in the ADD-sound byte lack o' nuance modality. So, unfortunately, Arab equals non-decent where a better answer would have been: "No, Senator Obama is an American citizen, and not Arab, and even if he is of Arabian descent (forget it, if he goes there, audience is lost and point is missed and potentially misinterpreted..."He IS an Arab, see!") that has nothing to do with his character, qualifications and issues." This is like Frankenstein, and they have painted Obama as "The Monster," and now realize the mob has the torches and could potentially become rabid. It only takes one, and when the crowd itself starts feeling comfy to publicly articulate fear and "them," one is left to wonder what those who fear who don't want to disclose their feelings publicly.

McCain had to correct these folks, but at the same time, bili, he is ultimately responsible for employing the arsonists who started these fires of fear and hate...and now it's too late for him to put them out. The right thing for McCain to do now is to no longer allow Palin or anyone on his team, and of course, himself, to continue to question Obama's "terrorist alliances." It's inaccurate, irresponsible and dangerous.
 
687walk
      ID: 5292522
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 10:44
So, in summary, what bili said in a far more concise way. :-)
 
688Perm Dude
      ID: 23946119
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 10:46
I think McCain is like the sorcerer's apprentice, and it has all gotten beyond him now. I do give him props for taking the mike back and correcting the woman. And the fact that he mentions an Obama presidency as a possibility is very telling.
 
689walk
      ID: 5292522
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 10:53
It is a bit surreal, what happened yesterday at the McCain rally. I am curious what will happen at the debate on Wednesday, in NY (Hofstra U., Long Island). If McCain goes on this attack, one can see many factors: Is his heart & head really into it? (a la the way a dumb and ignorant Bush (or Palin) would be? Will the audience boo? Will Obama be able to use McCain's recent "settle down" responses to his supporters' overzealous comments against him? etc.

McCain has boxed himself in on this issue, and that does not even consider the much bigger and more important response about the REAL issues facing voters such as the reeling economy and international relations. This line of attack is in poor form.
 
690walk
      ID: 5292522
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 12:47
TPM: Georgia Senate Race, Bomb Obama

Well, if anything, this is the crap that is one of the main reasons behind Obama in the first place: to at least TRY and get this country into thinking about the country, and less about the party. Ironic it's the "country first" party that is exacerbating angry, violent partisan rhetoric.

I bet McCain is fighting his very soul pondering how it has come to this, and how a guy such as hims, with a pretty honoroable resume and reputation, is now clearly positioned as the leader behind such blatant nastiness. This is not "winning with honor."
 
691Perm Dude
      ID: 23946119
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 13:45
Just had a woman today tell me that it was God's will that McCain gets elected. Wonder what she'll do when Obama wins?
 
692Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 15:44
Learn that God does not care if this country goes down the tubes.
 
693walk
      ID: 5292522
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 15:57
Learn that:

- There is no god.
- If there was a god, it would not be involved in any human decisions.
 
694sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 16:35
ALl this hate speak taking place at McCain rallies of late, causes me to fear one aspect of the almost certain at this stage, Obama Presidency. And that is; how long Obama will survive it before one or more of those rightwing whackos will decide its "Gods will that Obama die".
 
695Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 19:56
Now that I know Hillary isn't the VP pick, I'd say he's safe.

And Sarge doesn't know those aren't plants in the audience.
 
696sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Oct 11, 2008, 20:43
Wasnt 'plants' from the rightwing whack farms that went out and blew up Drs Offices, claiming it to be Gods work.

Besides which, Baldy doesnt know that they were plants. Just his mindless effort at deflecting the point.
 
697Tree
      ID: 12938521
      Sun, Oct 12, 2008, 01:15
we should be afraid...

these "christians" are so filled with hate. part of Baldwin's ilk...
 
698walk
      ID: 5292522
      Sun, Oct 12, 2008, 09:25
Makes me think of the movie I saw last night, Bill Maher's Religulous. Spot on. Messed up.
 
699sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Oct 12, 2008, 14:19
The 'absoluteness' of this divisive political scenario we live with today, is the true legacy of the current administration.
 
700Boldwin
      ID: 29241221
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 03:29
Sarge [whose livelihood was killed by Obama's Acorn/Fannie Mae activism and Sarge is too dumb to get it]
[How's the auto dealing coming after Obama threw a sabot into the credit world?

Well at least the poor got houses...no wait, they are upside down, and couldn't even make the payments before the depression hit and will lose those houses anyway...]
It's the same divide as the 60's. It never went away. It isn't any worse. Unless you consider socialism a middle ground between marxism and capitalism, but since socialism is marxism, there truly is no middle ground.

No not even communitarianism, the third way, not the DLC way and certainly not Obama's way. There is no middle ground.
 
701sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 09:39
You're right about one thing Baldy, those of us whose income is largely predicated on our customers ability to obtain financing, are getting killed. Quite honestly, my income is down 70% or more from a year ago. However, it was 'fannie mae' as you claim. It was Countrywide, Wachovia, WAMU, Lehamn, Bear, etc etc etc.
 
702Perm Dude
      ID: 169101214
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 09:39
It's really just sad that, even in this thread, Baldwin is all about painting Obama as some kind of Skull & Bones, shadowy, other. Does he know any other way to approach politics? Is this how he justifies his political involvement: I smear all Democrats equally so this is OK?
 
703sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 09:40
However, it was 'fannie mae' as you claim.

yet another in my long ist of typos. Should read:

However, it wasn't 'fannie mae' as you claim.
 
704walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 11:37
What "they" really mean by asking: "Who is the Real Obama?"

Cenk sums it up nicely and accurately... "Not one of us!" (Peter Gabriel) -- (just more capable to lead)
 
705Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 11:47
Sarge

You really aren't following along. Fannie Mae bought and sold those bad subprime mortgages to investors, which is where Countrywide, Wachovia, WAMU, Lehamn, Bear, etc etc etc. come into the picture.
 
706sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 17:55
Fannie Mae wasnt the originator of ALL of those 'mortgage backed' securities. Nor, were they the only ones selling/buying etc.

It wasnt the CRA which led to the problem in this arena. Quite honestly, it was Graham-Leach-Bliley which did away with the last remnants of the Glass-Steagall Act and THAT Act, is what prevented investment banking and mortgage banking from being mixed under the one roof. (Thereby allowing for the creation of these phantom securities.)
 
707Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:31
A quick trip to google university does not save you.

I didn't remotely say they were the originator of all those loans. They bought the majority of them, repackaged them with good loans and bad, and sold them to the investment houses that are now owned by someone else.

Banks made bad loans for the following reasons...

1) The CRA meant they could be sued and fined for $500 million if they didn't and they would be prevented from expansion.

2) They knew for sure that Fannie Mae would take the bad loans off their hands.
 
708Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 11:41
Popping in, I was wondering if I'd see Boldwin so fully indoctrinated in the agenda to dehumanize Barack Obama.

When I left, B's propaganda points of the day were that Obama's American citizenship was in doubt and that he was throwing political rallies for anti-Christian politicians in Africa.

Now I see that Senator Obama, along with the CRA (which was enacted in 1977) are responsible for the economic crisis. Who knew the US Economy was such a delicate thing that all it took was one act of banking/housing legislation and a but single lawsuit 20 years later to bring it all to it's knees in another 10 years?

Couldn't have anything to do with the government's extreme easing of debt-to-asset policy for the country's biggest credit brokers at exactly the time that the housing market exploded, could it?

My take (check the comments).
 
709Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 12:04
Mith,

Standing ovation! Your analysis is sorely missed on these boards.
 
710Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 12:41
Thanks PV
 
711Perm Dude
      ID: 11935149
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 12:44
Yeah, a good site, MITH. I check it about everyday.
 
712Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 13:04
good to see you, albeit briefly, MITH.

i didn't know about your blog. i'll add it to my google reader - btw, google reader in, 2020, will be blamed by the radical right for the decline of America.
 
713Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:22
Hold on!

Not the slam dunk you think you have...quite the opposite:

From your material...
The Committee accepted a substitute bill authored by Banking Chairman Richard Shelby (R-AL). They disagreed to a Democratic substitute by Ranking Member Paul Sarbanes (D-MD). The Sarbanes substitute would have created an affordable housing fund based on the GSEs’ profits, eased portfolio limits, streamlined program approval and increased the conforming loan limits for high cost areas. It failed 9 yeas to 11 nays, and the Shelby bill passed on a straight party line vote of 11 yeas to 9 nays.
As portrayed by the right, the Dems were the ones pushing for things in Sarbanes' bill like...

1) an affordable housing fund...read slush fund for Acorn and allied Democrat pet projects.

2) eased portfolio limits...read 'why stop at 3 million illegal aliens with mortgages, lets shoot for 5 million'...'Let's increase the percentage of underperforming loans.'

3) increased the conforming loan limits for high cost areas...read 'let's make all our loans to poor people' [slight hyperbole]

That my old friend is an economic suicide pact between the Dems and the liberal run Fannie Mae.

Dems aparently voted straight party line for Sarbanes' and definately voted straight party line against the Republican's more stringent standards, standards we all have great reason to regret were not imposed.

Yet somehow to you these straight party line voters were some bipartisan resource the Republicans could and should have drawn on to get this passed in the senate where...according to your material...

The bill is not expected to gain full Senate consideration unless an accommodation can be made to attract support from Democrats.

How in the world does your supporting material lead you to conclude that Democrats in general were any more inclined to push for fiscal responsibility than the Dems in that video who clearly were being obstructionist to imposing reasonable standards at Fannie Mae?

If you can work a little harder to prove that Bush was working with the Dems to evade regulating Fannie Mae more power to you. I'll throw him under the bus in a heartbeat. What your material does not do is absolve Democrats from killing Fannie Mae by forcing them to make more and more bad loans.

If the Republicans on that committee were voting straight party line for tuffer regulations at Fannie Mae as your 'supporting material' shows, then your evidence flies in the face of the conclusion you are stretching to make.

In an environment where Fannie Mae was buying politicians with campaign donations left and right, why are you so confident Republicans could have so easily used their majority to overpower a president and a solid block of opposing Democrats?
 
714Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:26
And I will also ask you if you could go back in time to 2006 and give McCain the tuffer oversight of Fannie Mae that he asked for would you do it?

Saying it was by then too late to set the house in order is pulled straight from...
 
715Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:36
BTW try being the majority whip selling squeezing off unwise lending to the poor when they know they will be demagogued as hating poor people by the next well funded Democrat they run against.

Sure it was an easy task somehow not undertaken. Ridiculous attempt to lay the blame exactly where it does not lie.

I applaud you for the energy it took to make a blog, and do that research, all while taking on two jobs in your work-a-day life...but when your own research disproves your presumptive conclusion you've got to change your mind.
 
716Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 15:04
The bill is not expected to gain full Senate consideration unless an accommodation can be made to attract support from Democrats.

Who's fault is that? The Shelby version of the bill passed in committee.

The GOP controlled what was put to a vote on the senate floor.

A sister bill had already passed in the House with solid majorities on both sides of the aisle.

Even if you believe what you wrote, what you're saying is that suddenly the Senate Republicans decided that appeasing Democrats in the chamber was more imp[ortant than getting the issue settled. I don't think so my old friend. Like I wrote in that piece, the details are murky. I think the best bet for why it didn't make it to the floor is probably further objections from the executive branch. I'm sorry but the Dems just didn't have the sway in the 109th that you are asserting.

But all that is beside the point. The main portion of that post wasn't the reason I posted here and it isn't the intended response to your recent propaganda in this thread. Your response is in the comments section. Whatever changes might have been made to the CRA and whatever precedent that ACORN lawsuit might have set (both years before the fact) the housing crisis is simply not possible if the FEC didn't change the game:
The so-called net capital rule was created in 1975 to allow the SEC to oversee broker-dealers, or companies that trade securities for customers as well as their own accounts. It requires that firms value all of their tradable assets at market prices, and then it applies a haircut, or a discount, to account for the assets' market risk. So equities, for example, have a haircut of 15%, while a 30-year Treasury bill, because it is less risky, has a 6% haircut.

The net capital rule also requires that broker dealers limit their debt-to-net capital ratio to 12-to-1, although they must issue an early warning if they begin approaching this limit, and are forced to stop trading if they exceed it, so broker dealers often keep their debt-to-net capital ratios much lower.

In 2004, the European Union passed a rule allowing the SEC's European counterpart to manage the risk both of broker dealers and their investment banking holding companies. In response, the SEC instituted a similar, voluntary program for broker dealers with capital of at least $5 billion, enabling the agency to oversee both the broker dealers and the holding companies.

This alternative approach, which all five broker-dealers that qualified — Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley — voluntarily joined, altered the way the SEC measured their capital. Using computerized models, the SEC, under its new Consolidated Supervised Entities program, allowed the broker dealers to increase their debt-to-net-capital ratios, sometimes, as in the case of Merrill Lynch, to as high as 40-to-1. It also removed the method for applying haircuts, relying instead on another math-based model for calculating risk that led to a much smaller discount.
try being the majority whip selling squeezing off unwise lending to the poor when they know they will be demagogued as hating poor people by the next well funded Democrat they run against.

Ha! So the congressional majority gets a pass for being victimized by the electoral process! I'm just so ridiculous!

For the record, I don't "lay the blame" for the economic crisis at the feet of Senate Republicans. If I have to place the largest burden on just one entity it would be the SEC. They're the ones who changed the rules to allow the huge firms to go crazy in the first place. Reigning in FM/FM would certainly have helped but I believe those mortgages would have been bought up anyway, even if they had to go
overseas. That's where a large bulk of those bundles wound up anyway.

But as I noted in the last paragraph of comment #2, there was help from all sides on this issue. Alan Greenspan helped to convince Americans that ARMs were safe because the real estate market would continue to rise, prompting the flipping craze.

I'd also love to see a breakdown of how many of these bad loans were taken out by low and middle income earners who moved into the purchased house vs property flippers who were buying and selling 2 or more per year.
 
717Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 15:13
If the bundles weren't full of crap, there never would have been a collapse of confidence making the SEC's role relevent.
 
718Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 15:26
You can try to convince yourself of that if you insist but the issues you blame occurred long before the permissable debt to capital ratio was more than tripled. An effective SEC (the entire point of their existence is oversight, right?) would have known whether they were allowing broker-dealers to bite off more than they can chew. Effective oversight at the mortgage brokers would have reigned in the orgy or ARMs that they issued despite knowing the risks of an extended market slowdown.

You can't even show me that he bulk of bad loans went to low income buyers trying to get into a home rather than middle and upper income property flippers trying to get in on the action. The latter group has absolutely nothing to do with the ACORN suit that you hilariously assert is one of the primary causes of the collapse.
 
719Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 15:39
I forgot to include a third category I'd like to see in the breakdown of bad loans - home equity loans. Anyway, the rabid right (which, these days, is most of the right) is trying to change history with each time they set upon a new target to blame the economic crisis on. How many middle class earners who have nothing to do with the CRA decided they could afford far more home than they had any business getting into when they heard this:
One way homeowners attempt to manage their payment risk is to use fixed-rate mortgages, which typically allow homeowners to prepay their debt when interest rates fall but do not involve an increase in payments when interest rates rise. Homeowners pay a lot of money for the right to refinance and for the insurance against increasing mortgage payments. Calculations by market analysts of the "option adjusted spread" on mortgages suggest that the cost of these benefits conferred by fixed-rate mortgages can range from 0.5 percent to 1.2 percent, raising homeowners' annual after-tax mortgage payments by several thousand dollars. Indeed, recent research within the Federal Reserve suggests that many homeowners might have saved tens of thousands of dollars had they held adjustable-rate mortgages rather than fixed-rate mortgages during the past decade, though this would not have been the case, of course, had interest rates trended sharply upward.

American homeowners clearly like the certainty of fixed mortgage payments. This preference is in striking contrast to the situation in some other countries, where adjustable-rate mortgages are far more common and where efforts to introduce American-type fixed-rate mortgages generally have not been successful. Fixed-rate mortgages seem unduly expensive to households in other countries. One possible reason is that these mortgages effectively charge homeowners high fees for protection against rising interest rates and for the right to refinance.

American consumers might benefit if lenders provided greater mortgage product alternatives to the traditional fixed-rate mortgage. To the degree that households are driven by fears of payment shocks but are willing to manage their own interest rate risks, the traditional fixed-rate mortgage may be an expensive method of financing a home.
- Alan Greenspan 2/23/04
 
720Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 16:29
Baldwin's current masturbatory fixture du jour (having temporarily taken Coulter's place) is using the name ACORN for all manner of things, so of course he's going to.

Palin: Obama must ‘rein in’ ACORN

oy. they are so desperate, grasping at any straw.
 
721Great One
      ID: 497221412
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 13:28
 
722DWetzel at work
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 17:18
McCain camp: Obama's people "turned up the heat" on Joe the Plumber

What the hell bizarro crap is this?
 
723walk
      ID: 559391320
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 22:31
It's an attempt to say McCain is more aligned with "middle America"...however, Joe the Plumber hardly represents the median income of Americans and Obama is not attacking him. It's a strategy...it's politics.
 
724biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 23:43
Nice blog, MITH! Nice to see you around these parts again.
 
725Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 00:55
Walk - i think he's more referring to the fact that McCain is claiming that Obama is responsible for the TV crews camped out in front of Joe's house, the media people digging through his files, and so on.

more disgusting tactics from one of the most disgusting presidential campaigns ever....this guy was a national hero?!?!
 
726walk
      ID: 559391320
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 09:49
Got it, Tree. Seems like everything is Obama's fault.
 
727walk
      ID: 559391320
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 10:44
Boy, well done, MITH. Nice to see you and now I have your blog bookmarked.
 
728DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 13:46
"Walk - i think he's more referring to the fact that McCain is claiming that Obama is responsible for the TV crews camped out in front of Joe's house, the media people digging through his files, and so on."

Precisely. (Well, approximately precisely.)
 
729Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sun, Oct 19, 2008, 08:56
the REAL John McCain
 
730Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 15:26
McCain says Obama will 'say anything' to win

...says the guy who sold out his own beliefs and legacy in his own attempts to win....

oooops...and there's that short fuse again...
 
731walk
      ID: 559391320
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 08:05
NYT, Brooks. Ceding the Center

Base is a prereq; a shame a leader could not continue to lead based on established personal principles. Now, it's either a loss or more divisiveness.
 
732Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 10:22
You do realize what a ridiculous thing it is for Brooks to be advising the Republican party, don't you?

Coopted by the Clintons, gay, in other words what a surprise he isn't much of a social conservative, traitorous to his former party...carries not an ounce of weight with Republicans right of the Rockafeller family.
 
733sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 11:51
Coopted by the Clintons, gay, in other words what a surprise he isn't much of a social conservative, traitorous to his former party...carries not an ounce of weight with Republicans right of the Rockafeller family.

English translation: He disagrees with me, so how Republican can he be?
 
734walk
      ID: 559391320
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 13:00
"Co-opted by the Clintons, gay..." WTF?
 
735Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 14:59
David Brooks while a republican set out to write a book about Hillary. He ended up becoming sexually involved with the male staffer Hillary sent out to work with him. He went from there into a vendetta series of backstabbings directed at his former friends on the right.

Including establishing Media Matters which badgers the media to be more left leaning as if that were possible.

Including becoming one of the biggest proponents of killing right wing talk radio thru a re-established 'Fairness Doctrine'.

Just one of those stories a veteran of the Clinton era culture wars would remember.
 
736Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 15:09
Today he conducts these leftist adventures all the while pleading for gay marriage and pretending to be the house conservative at the NYT.
 
737Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 15:12
"Co-opted by the Clintons, gay..." WTF?

more of the Baldwin "gays are less than human" rhetoric his loving christian self likes to bring up...
 
738Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 17:25
Baldy, I think you've combined David Brock and David Brooks.
 
739Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 17:57
Eye Trick
 
740Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 19:11
Thanks for that 'McCain will win over the moderates and centrists and fill the big tent' advice.

As the people who gave that advice jump ship and endorse Obama. As I predicted.
I wish to reach around and pat myself on the back. Way back during the Republican primaries ... we were told by the Republican Party hierarchy that the only chance the Republican Party had (by the way, we were told this also by some of the intellectualoids in our own conservative media) to win was to attract Democrats and moderates; and that the era of Reagan was over, and we had to somehow find a way to become stewards of a Big Government but smarter that gives money away to the Wal-Mart middle class so that they, too, will feel comfortable with us and like us and vote for us.

In that sense, it was said the only opportunity this party has to regain power is John McCain. Only John McCain can get moderates and independents and Democrats to join the Republican Party, "and we can't win," these intellectualoids said, "if that didn't happen." Well, the latest moderate Republican to abandon his party is William Weld, the former governor of Massachusetts who today endorsed the Most Merciful Lord Barack Obama. He joins moderate Republican Colin Powell. He joins former Bush press spokesman Scott McClellan. He joins a number of Republicans like Chuck Hagel, Senator from Nebraska ...

Now, I wish to ask all of you influential pseudointellectual conservative media types who have also abandoned McCain and want to go vote for Obama (and you know who you are without my having to mention your name) what happened to your precious theory? What the hell happened to your theory that only John McCain could enlarge this party, that we had to get moderates and independents? How the hell is it that moderate Republicans are fleeing their own party and we are not attracting other moderates and independents?

... When I saw the Weld thing today I smiled and I fired off a note to all my buddies and I said, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! How can this be? How can this be? This is the kind of guy that our candidate was supposed to be attracting, and we were supposed to be getting all these moderates from the Democrat Party," and we will, by the way. We're going to get some rank and file, average American Democrats that are going to vote for McCain. But these hoity-toity bourgeoisie... Well, they're not the bourgeoisie, but... Well, they are in a sense. They're following their own self-interests, so I say fine. They have just admitted that Republican Party "big tent" philosophy didn't work. It was their philosophy; it was their idea. These are the people, once they steered the party to where it is, they are the ones that abandoned it. - Rush Limbaugh
Never again.
 
741Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 19:13
SZ

Yup, you are exactly right.
 
742sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Oct 31, 2008, 18:56
McCain and his abysmal treatment of Veterans
 
743biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 05:09
I know we should be gracious, but...

 
744Baldwin
      ID: 201045320
      Thu, Nov 06, 2008, 05:38
"you make a dead man..." - Rolling Stones

Like I said, it's the viagra circuit for you, John.
 
745Boldwin
      ID: 5311401914
      Thu, Dec 20, 2012, 04:08
NDAA Amendment Designed to Protect Americans from Indefinite Detentions Killed; Rand Paul Blames John McCain

The senate had already passed the amendment to strip that notorious part of the NDAA whereupon McCain killed the reform in conference.

May I never again have to hear a liberal on this board tell me what a great guy McCain is and why aren't more republicans like him?