Forum: pol
Page 3134
Subject: The Real Obama - Part 3


  Posted by: Mattinglyinthehall - Dude [01629107] Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 07:58

link to part 1

link to part 2

 
1Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 07:59
Obama's off the record meeting with Christian leaders
What could he have in common with “conservative” Christian leaders?

I returned from the meeting very concerned. Here is a liberal—Obama--reaching out to the Christian community at a time the conservative--Sen. John McCain--seems to be distancing himself from the so-called “Christian Right.” I think McCain has a lot of work to do to get the support of the Christian community. Obama seemed to have the support of at least half of the 43 leaders who attended the Chicago meeting. And in my opinion, he “made points” with the rest. The tone of the meeting was respectful and generally upbeat.

Sen. Obama personally took time to meet each person and shake their hand. He’s not as large a man as I envisioned from seeing him on television. But, he’s warm and personable --- obviously one of the reasons why people like him. He seemed to remember names well. He hugged a couple of the participants—mostly the black preachers who attended. He also seemed to be on top of the issues; and he’s obviously very intelligent.

The questions were mostly “softball” questions in my opinion. I was concerned after three or four general questions that we wouldn’t ask the most important questions. So I raised my hand and he called on me. I said, “Senator, I want to ask a question I'm sure you are expecting regarding your position on abortion. I represent a segment of the church where nearly everyone considers the issue of supporting life to be the most important issue and where nearly everyone would be opposed to abortion. I want to ask what your stand on abortion is and if you believe what I think you believe, how you justify that with your Christian faith and why you think we should vote for you.”

Since his response was “off-the-record,” I can say that the time he took to answer was probably 15 minutes. He came across as thoughtful and much more of a “centrist” than what I would have expected. He did not appear to be the crazy leftist that is being supported by George Soros and his radical leftist friends. Sen. Obama looked me in the eye as he answered my question, almost as if it were a one-on-one interview. I had already read the chapter on “faith” in his book the “Audacity of Hope.” If you want to know how he answered the question, read that chapter. In other words, other than his demeanor and obvious attempt to win over the Christian leaders in the room, he didn’t say anything new.

You may know that I supported Gov. Mike Huckabee during the primaries. Like Huckabee, Obama was winsome and good with giving extemporaneous answers to difficult questions. I had hoped that Huckabee would have gotten the nomination. Huckabee was never able to raise the kind of money that Obama has raised. But he did get a lot of the grassroots excited as Obama has obviously done.

Sen. John McCain was my second choice for the nomination. He is a true American hero. He has served well in the Senate for many years. He is strong for our national defense at a time we are in a war with Islamic terrorists. And, he is strong for Israel. He also has the right stands, in my opinion, on abortion and the sanctity of marriage.

Unlike Huckabee, he is not comfortable talking about his faith. It’s well known he has a temper and he has been known to swear in public. The fact he divorced the wife who stuck by him and raised his children while he was in a prisoner of war camp to marry a much younger woman, doesn’t sit well with those of us who believe marriage is for life.

I urge Sen. John McCain to have a similar meeting—or several such meetings. There is a lot of latent support for him in the Christian community. But after being “still armed” by the McCain camp, while being wooed by the Obama camp, this may be the first time a majority of evangelicals will vote for a Democrat for president since Jimmy Carter, who talked of being “born again” and got many evangelical votes in 1976.

Another account:
"Reaching out to the faith community is a priority for Barack Obama and will be a priority under an Obama Administration. This is one of several meetings he will have over the coming months with religious leaders."

Folks, this is an important development. It shows that the game has changed. Old rules don't apply. We're in uncharted territory. John McCain's religious outreach team has to now step to the plate and work hard for faith voters. It's not automatic.

 
2biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 09:03
... and I like Obama just a little less. I realize it's for some reason still necessary to pander to Christians to get elected President, I just wish it weren't. I wish religion could still be somewhat divorced from politics. It seems to be this country is moving backward in that respect.

 
3biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 09:26
To follow-up on Madman's link on taxes, Here's a good graph:



If enacted, the Obama and McCain tax plans would have radically different effects on the distribution of tax burdens in the United States. The Obama tax plan would make the tax system significantly more progressive by providing large tax breaks to those at the bottom of the income scale and raising taxes significantly on upper-income earners. The McCain tax plan would make the tax system more regressive, even compared with a system in which the 2001–06 tax cuts are made permanent.

 
4Madman
ID: 7538321
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 10:56
Obama refutes Tax Policy Center report ... From the link I gave earlier, the Tax Policy center was allegedly told that there was no payroll tax proposal on the table ... yesterday, Obama specified that he'd raise payroll taxes on those earning more than $250k ...
 
5Madman
ID: 7538321
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 11:30
br 3 -- some points on that graph:

1) it assumes that corporate tax increases are borne by capital only. It is assumed that the direct owners of that capital are the sole bearers of the tax. That causes much of the difference in progressivity. I don't think that is a particularly effective way of looking at it.

2) Yglesias appears to have chosen to plot the 2009 scenario, which is striking because it implicitly supports the argument that the Bush tax cuts should be the baseline. This is consistent with Obama's and McCain's arguments, but directly contrary to Hillary's position and the vast bulk of the Congressional Democratic caucus.

This is much more than a semantic point, because depending on whether you can fight to make the bulk of the Bush tax cuts permanent or not is a significant issue in the campaign.

3) Obama's net proposal is measured to be a tax reduction against this baseline. Obviously, McCain is even more-so. People should bear that in mind if they hear an argument that prior tax cuts led to the deficit and got us into a fiscal mess. Both candidates are proposing to cut taxes even more.

This also suggests credibility is a massively important issue when evaluating their plans. There's a lot of planned cake eating going on.

4) I'm open to a good argument to the contrary, but as of now, I am opposed to any plan to disconnect Social Security taxes from benefits, and/or to mix general and payroll tax revenues. I think this is a recipe for the unraveling of Social Security in the long-run; a more effective unraveling, perhaps, than some of the private account proposals being offered. I can't believe a Democrat is proposing it. It also stands to make our general account budgeting processes even less attached to reality.
 
6biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 11:49
I think most people are probably using what they are paying now at the most relevant baseline, so using 2009 seems reasonable.
 
7Madman
ID: 7538321
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 12:00
using 2009 seems reasonable I agree. As I've shown elsewhere here, Dems generally don't.
 
8Boldwin
ID: 295161416
Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 17:48
Remember when Obama was concerned about his weakness with gun owners in Pennsylvania so two years before the primary he set up a faux gun-rights organization to back him there?

He's at it again...
The CBN report noted that the "Obama campaign understands that the issue of abortion is a problem for some voters of faith." But the report said they view the "Joshua" program plans as a way to broaden the discussion on values, and cite issues of poverty, climate change, the war on terror and others on which evangelicals may agree with Obama.

HSLDA chief Michael Farris told Roll Call that the outreach, if using the Joshua moniker, "is an improper invasion of our trademark and we've retained legal counsel to notify the Obama campaign to stop this."

The HSLDA's website offers, "Generation Joshua is designed for Christian youth between the ages of 11 and 19 who want to become a force in the civil and political arenas."

"It's impossible to miss this, as web savvy as they are," Farris, who also wrote a 2005 book called, "The Joshua Generation: Restoring the Heritage of Christian Leadership," told Roll Call.

The government lists "Generation Joshua" as being registered on Feb. 28, 2006, to the Home School Legal Defense Association, a nonprofit based in Purcellville, Va.

In a statement on the issue, Smith said the HSLDA registrations are a matter of public record.

"HSLDA has used these two trademarks continuously since 2003 for various services related to engaging young people, particularly within the Christian community, in civic involvement," the statement said.
What better way to cloud the issue that you have virtually nothing in common with a group than to plagerize the name of one of their groups.

I haven't seen anything quite this outrageous since america-hating ultra-libs created 'People For the American Way'.

 
9Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 15:56
Since Perm Dude feels personal finances matter in a campaign via his barb at McCain in the other thread. Please go thru these links and automatically dismiss them.

Hedge Funds Bad?

Despite their Ivy League pedigrees and good salaries, Michelle Obama often says the fact that she and her husband are out of debt is due to sheer luck, because they could not have predicted that his two books would become bestsellers. "It was like, 'Let's put all our money on red!' " she told a crowd at Ohio State University on Friday. "It wasn't a financial plan! We were lucky! And it shouldn't have been based on luck, because we worked hard."

There you go Perm Dude. An admission (see MITH, that's a word with two meanings, how appropriate) from Mrs. Great Leader admits it's all luck.

HEY! Here's how Mrs. Great Leader got some funding.

One of Obama's Earmark Requests Was for the Hospital That Employs Michelle Obama

Dan Riehl notes, via Amanda Carpenter, that in the list of earmarks he requested, $1 million was requested for the construction of a new hospital pavilion at the University Of Chicago. The request was put in in 2006.

You know who works for the University of Chicago Hospital?

Michelle Obama. She's vice president of community affairs.

As Byron noted, "In 2006, the Chicago Tribune reported that Mrs. Obama’s compensation at the University of Chicago Hospital, where she is a vice president for community affairs, jumped from $121,910 in 2004, just before her husband was elected to the Senate, to $316,962 in 2005, just after he took office."


So is it luck Mrs. Great Leader or is it Mr. Great Leader?
 
10Boldwin
ID: 295161416
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 16:38
Boxman

Knowing Chicago, I want to see her timecards.
 
11Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 17:30
Obama Sharply Assails Absent Black Fathers
Addressing a packed congregation at one of the city’s largest black churches, Senator Barack Obama on Sunday invoked his own absent father to deliver a sharp message to African-American men, saying, “We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”

“Too many fathers are M.I.A, too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,” Mr. Obama said, to a chorus of approving murmurs from the audience. “They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”

The speech was striking for its setting, and in how Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, directly addressed one of the most sensitive topics in the African-American community: whether absent fathers bore responsibility for some of the intractable problems afflicting black Americans. Mr. Obama noted that “more than half of all black children live in single-parent households,” a number that he said had doubled since his own childhood.

Accompanied by his wife, Michelle, and his daughters, Malia and Sasha, who sat in the front pew, Mr. Obama laid out his case in stark terms that would be difficult for a white candidate to make, telling the mostly black audience not to “just sit in the house watching SportsCenter,” and to stop praising themselves for mediocre accomplishments.

“Don’t get carried away with that eighth-grade graduation,” he said, bringing many members of the congregation to their feet, applauding. “You’re supposed to graduate from eighth grade.”

On the campaign trail, Mr. Obama has frequently returned to the topic of parenting and personal responsibility, particularly for low-income African American families. Speaking in Texas in February, Mr. Obama told the mostly black audience to take responsibility for the education and nutrition of their children, and lectured them for feeding their children “cold Popeyes” for breakfast.

“I know how hard it is to get kids to eat properly,” Mr. Obama said. “But I also know that folks are letting our children drink eight sodas a day, which some parents do, or, you know, eat a bag of potato chips for lunch. Buy a little desk or put that child at the kitchen table. Watch them do their homework.”

On Friday, Mr. Obama announced that he would be a co-sponsor of a bill with Senator Evan Bayh, Democrat of Indiana, that his campaign said would address the “national epidemic of absentee fathers.” If passed, the legislation would increase the enforcement of child support payments and strengthen domestic violence prevention services.
 
12Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 17:39
“We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”

Why Great Leader? According to you they're not even ALIVE at conception.
 
13Tree
ID: 52541517
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 18:38
Boxman - way to totally miss the point. this could not be less about the issue you're trying to make it into.

here you have an African American presidential candidate, addressing African Americans, and telling them that black men in this country need to shape up - they need to keep it zipped up if they're not going to be responsible for what happens when they get it on without protection, and you are ignoring the significance, not to mention balls, of making that statement.

equally as important is the fact that you are disparaging a candidate from the opposite side of the aisle, because he is PRO-FAMILY.

it's pretty clear that people like you don't care whether a democrat is pro-family, you only care that he or she is a democrat.
 
14Building 7
ID: 174591519
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 18:47
equally as important is the fact that you are disparaging a candidate from the opposite side of the aisle, because he is PRO-FAMILY.

I've never heard of a candidate in my life that was anti-family. Who would be opposed to a family?
 
15Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 19:00
Tree will come up with some false spin for you B7, give it time.

way to totally miss the point.

Not at all. According to you liberals, the point of conception does not equate to a living human being. How could someone be a father at that specific point in the baby making process? Unless of course the conceived entity is in fact alive.
 
16Razor
ID: 17521223
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 19:14
I see no contradiction in his terms since he is referring to fatherless children who were, in fact, born and are alive but whose fathers may have abandoned their mothers before birth. He's not saying that life begins at conception; he is saying that responsibility begins at conception.
 
17Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 19:21
I see no contradiction in his terms since he is referring to fatherless children who were

Of course you don't. He's speaking in liberal NewSpeak. Your native tongue.

he is saying that responsibility begins at conception

Responsible for what exactly? What is there to be responsible for at the point of conception? I'm wondering if you'll put words into The Great Leader's mouth or actually quote him.
 
18Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 19:27
Responsible for what exactly? What is there to be responsible for at the point of conception?

Kinda like responibilty in an auto accident - Leave name, contact info and insurance provider in case she decides not to kill the child.
 
19walk
ID: 4952035
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 21:02
What is not right about what Obama said today about absent Black fathers? It's a responsibility and is important and is a problem in such communities. Why not address it? What do you want him to do?
 
20Razor
ID: 17521223
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 21:21
Kinda like responibilty in an auto accident - Leave name, contact info and insurance provider in case she decides not to kill the child.

What child?
 
21Tree
ID: 225521521
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 22:57
I've never heard of a candidate in my life that was anti-family. Who would be opposed to a family?

you got me. but conservatives like to spin those who are pro-choice and those who have no issues with gay marriage, as anti-family.

way to totally miss the point.

Not at all.


last i checked, Obama wasn't discussing abortion. he was making a valid point on a completely different issue, but it's not unusual for conservatives these days to try and drag down the next President of the United States in any way possible, be it addressing unrelated issues or accepting racist speech toward him.

you are no different.

What is not right about what Obama said today about absent Black fathers? It's a responsibility and is important and is a problem in such communities. Why not address it? What do you want him to do?

he's trying to make it into an abortion issue, because, he's got nothing else.

we've already seen how low Boxman will go in regards to Obama, so nothing is out of bounds for his ilk.



 
22tastethewaste
ID: 911431318
Sun, Jun 15, 2008, 23:29
agreed, boxman, you need to be a little bit more honest with your postings. You are intentionally changing the subject on this speech and turning it into an abortion issue. Why?
 
23azdbacker
ID: 65401412
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 01:07
Do you people not understand partisan politics? Boxman (and I) already knows all we need to know about Obama. What, are we supposed to applaud Obama for making a speech that is fairly sane?

Fine, he can speak. But if you post about a speech of his, expect someone from the other side to find something to nitpick. Just as any of you on the other side would do if Box or I posted something by President Bush.

My summary: nice comments, Obama. Clearly he is not so devoid of common sense, morality and rationality that he can screw up this issue. Or at least he's smart enough not to do so publicly. Whoopee.

What freaks me out is people posting this like it's a shocking breakthrough. I knew everything he said when I was six.

"The speech was striking for its setting, and in how Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, directly addressed one of the most sensitive topics in the African-American community: whether absent fathers bore responsibility for some of the intractable problems afflicting black Americans."

Doesn't that just say all you need to know. This passes for a sensitive topic in the black community? How sick and twisted is that?
 
24Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 06:03
TTW:agreed, boxman, you need to be a little bit more honest with your postings. You are intentionally changing the subject on this speech and turning it into an abortion issue. Why?

Obama said "We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”

Isn't it valid for me to counter against his own stance on abortion and the liberal mantra of there not being actual life occuring at conception when he makes a comment like that.

Then again, per the action of the liberal zeitgeist chapter here at rotoguru.com there is no room for dissent against The Great Leader. You either bow to the picture of him or you are discarded.

Obama wants fathers to be responsible for an entity that, according to his own beliefs, is not even alive "yet". Why should they be responsible for the fetus?
 
25walk
ID: 4952035
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 06:16
azd, I don't think what Obama said was a breakthrough, but then again, not many politicians at this level are making speeches about such societal issues. Your argument that it's common sense is common sense.
 
26Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 07:32
This passes for a sensitive topic in the black community? How sick and twisted is that?

Are you calling the black community sick and twisted or the NY Times for phrasing it that way? If your answer is the latter, you're not as knowledgable as you think. I suggest you look into the reaction that Bill Cosby has received in saying the same things. If it's the former, that's stronger language than I'd use in mixed company but the statement supports the notion that he and his position on black paternal abandonment is very much a breakthrough.

Whichever the case, since you think this isn't any kind of breakthrough, here's an excersise for you: find two other black politicians who have been bold enough to say the same thing to a dominantly black audiance (hint: you likely can't - or if you can, you'll learn in the process just how rare this type of speech from a black politician).

In this regard, Barack Obama fills a void that has existed in national black leadership for decades. I haven't studied MLK thoroughly enough to know whether this was an issue he touched on. Perhaps paternal abandonment wasn't the cancer in the black community back then that it is today. But in modern times the race baiters who have substituted for national black leadership have rarely treaded toward possibly the single greatest factor in the decay of their community, except possibly on occassion to blame white America for the phenemon.

Go back as far as you want, you won't find Obama doing that. As far as national black political figures are concerned, he is very much a breakthrough. The only way to pin the racist tag on Obama is to assert things people around have said to him. I sure am glad that I don't have to deal with all of the wacky opinions of my friends and family and others close to me being treated as if they are my opinions as well.

In my life, I'd bet I've spent more Sundays in church than the majority of Americans who call themselves Christians and I can tell you for certain that even when my faith was at it's strongest, I didn't believe every word that came from that altar, even in some recurring themes. I was happy to be there anyway. It's unfortunate that some people believe that the occassional racist sermon from Rev. Wright means that Obama can only be a racist, himself.
 
27walk
ID: 4952035
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 07:37
MITH!
 
28azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 11:50
MITH - Yes, I am saying that it is sick and twisted of any community to find anything groundbreaking in the idea that two parents, other things being equal, tend to be better for children than one.

I think we had the same discussion with the rabid feminist movement over an episode of Murphy Brown, which was kind of a silly reason for having it.

Apparently, having never been black or a feminist, I just assume people know things like this.

And no, even though it is a sensitive concept in some segments of the black community, I refuse to give Obama credit for having basic understanding of things I knew when I was six years old.

By the way, I just left my ministry after 9 years last weekend because I couldn't find any biblical basis for their teaching that having a mortgage was sin. I guess you and I (and Obama) differ in what we expect/expected out of our churches, also.
 
29Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 11:59
Yes, I am saying that it is sick and twisted of any community to find anything groundbreaking in the idea that two parents, other things being equal, tend to be better for children than one.

I don't know that the black community finds the notion, itself, "groundbreaking", AZD. What's groundbreaking is a black leader with national exposure who acknowledges these things.


I refuse to give Obama credit for having basic understanding of things I knew when I was six years old.

I don't understand this. Pols who espouse positions you support don't deserve any credit for (in your opinion) being right?
 
30Perm Dude
ID: 52539169
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:03
Especially in a community in which those positions have failed to take full root?

I'm pretty certain that a GOP politician, saying the same things to the same people, would be applauded by you, azd, for "telling it like it is" or what not.

Show a little love for a guy saying the right things. He should be supported for putting some of your own beliefs (personal responsibility, et al) into a community which needs to hear it.
 
31azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:26
I said, "Nice comments." That's as far as I can go. I disagree with him on about 95% of all issues. Yay, he found a nut.
 
32Perm Dude
ID: 52539169
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:32
If you think a Democrat calling for personal responsibility as a central theme of his campaign is a nut, I think you underestimate the sea change that a Democrat like Obama represents to the Democratic Party.

Just as Bill Clinton in the 1990's pulled the Democrats to the middle (kicking and screaming all the way, but moving to the middle nevertheless), Obama will do the same in areas of personal action, fiscal responsiblity, and ending victimology.

I suspect that you agree with him on far more than 5% of the time, but given that this is a public website and you have a facade of sniping conservativism to maintain I suppose it'll have to remain hidden.
 
33Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:36
"Nice comments" and "I refuse to give Obama credit for having basic understanding of things I knew when I was six years old." are rather difficult to reconcile. More hyperbole?
 
34Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:48
Text of Obama's Father's Day speech.
 
35azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:49
I'm actually laughing over 32.

PD - you said,"If you think a Democrat calling for personal responsibility as a central theme of his campaign is a nut, I think you underestimate the sea change that a Democrat like Obama represents to the Democratic Party."

Since I have a facade of sniping conservatism to maintain, I won't approach whether or not I think Obama is a nut. What I did say was that he "found a nut." As in even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while...

To your point, I believe Obama is in no way similar to Clinton. He may call for personal responsibility in some of his speeches, but his policy position on nearly every issue is one of victimization and big government.

I saw his act firsthand with his stump speech in Tempe. Every other line appealed to some sort of victim and promised some big government solution. It left most of the crowd pretty "fired up" and "ready to go." Or at least that's what he made them chant. It left me pretty nauseous.
 
36Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 12:57
AZD

What I did say was that he "found a nut." As in even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while...

PD can clear it up for himself but I'm quite sure he meant 'nut' in the same sense you did. I could be wrong.

his policy position on nearly every issue is one of victimization and big government.

Actually I keep reading that he was a central figure in the IL legislature's welfare reform and he's even stated that some of our affirmative action policies have outlived their usefulness.
 
37Perm Dude
ID: 52539169
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 13:11
#35: I understood your point about a nut. My point was that what Obama represents was much bigger than a nut (that is, something that is occassionally caught by a blind squirrel or pig).

but his policy position on nearly every issue is one of victimization and big government

Well now, we're finally getting to a point in which facts can enter the discussion. What issues in particular?

 
38azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 13:24
PD - Sorry, I misunderstood. It still made me laugh. So at least I got that out of it, which is nice.

I've gotta run - we're moving into our new condo this week and I'm pretty busy. I'll get back to you later today or tonight on your last question - that sounds like it will require me returning to Obama's website so I can quote him accurately, rather than just going off the top of my head.

Before I forget, I would like to say that I've missed being around here. It's amazing how quickly I was able to get back into things here, like I never left. And I enjoy the interaction with those of you (like Perm Dude, walk and MITH), who can disagree without being disagreeable.

It's hard as hell to stop responding once you get going. Now that I'm done with school, I'm starting to wish there were more than 24 hours in a day.
 
39Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 13:30
AZD

When did you see Obama in Tempe?
 
40Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 13:32
Do you people not understand partisan politics? Boxman (and I) already knows all we need to know about Obama. What, are we supposed to applaud Obama for making a speech that is fairly sane?

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

why bother learning about a candidate, when you've made your mind up five months before an election?

for all you know, Obama could end up being the man who saves this country from the brink it's on, but all you care about is his part affiliation.

What freaks me out is people posting this like it's a shocking breakthrough.

so, by same token, John McCain should be going around, talking to homeless Vets, and saying "stop being such pussies, and get some responsibility for yourself, and get a freakin' job", and it should be no big deal?

so, why isn't he doing it?

I haven't studied MLK thoroughly enough to know whether this was an issue he touched on. Perhaps paternal abandonment wasn't the cancer in the black community back then that it is today.

i could be wrong on this, but i do believe that when he died, MLK was making plans to tackle poverty on a major scale, and this issue was involved in it.

In my life, I'd bet I've spent more Sundays in church than the majority of Americans who call themselves Christians and I can tell you for certain that even when my faith was at it's strongest, I didn't believe every word that came from that altar, even in some recurring themes.

here here. despite not being terribly religious, i spent many a saturday in synagogue. when Wright's speeches came out, and my parents (Hillary Clinton supporters) went along with the rage ride, i asked them if they believed everything their rabbi said on shabbos morning, or how my step-mom the feminist felt about sitting in a separate section in shul because she was a woman.

it softened them, when reality checked in.

Yes, I am saying that it is sick and twisted of any community to find anything groundbreaking in the idea that two parents, other things being equal, tend to be better for children than one.

to pull a page from Boxman's Book of Irrelevancy, so two gay parents is better than one straight parent?

And no, even though it is a sensitive concept in some segments of the black community, I refuse to give Obama credit for having basic understanding of things I knew when I was six years old.

YOU may understand it, and that's fine. but a frighteningly large percentage of men in the african american community don't understand, and the most significant African American politician making it into an issue is extremely important.

fine. he's not addressing you. that's understood. but for those he is addressing, this is major important, and takes some mighty big balls.




 
41azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 13:35
Last semester, 2007. I think it was probably September or October. I remember it was still very hot. I was like 10 feet from him on the media photographer's stand. Huge crowd.

Of course, that's what happens when all the professors give their students extra credit for attending.

Never in four years do I recall hearing of anyone getting extra credit for going to see a conservative speak.
 
42Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 14:01
Never in four years do I recall hearing of anyone getting extra credit for going to see a conservative speak.

how many conservative speakers spoke at (ASU?), and how many of them had the historical significance that Obama has?

never mind the fact that it's the prof's decision and personal freedom to give extra credit when they want.
 
43Perm Dude
ID: 52539169
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 14:09
Sounds like a real chip you are working on there, adz. And then trying to minimize Obama's natural appeal on a college campus by blaming the professors for swelling the crowd inappropriately. Nice.

All the professors? Are you certain?
 
44azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 14:16
Of course it's the prof's decision and personal freedom to give extra credit when they want. But you could argue that, in the spirit of intellectual curiosity, a professor should not be bribing people to be indoctrinated with a certain viewpoint without making a similar option for students to hear the other viewpoint.

Not many conservatives spoke at ASU, but enough did that there were opportunities.

What significance did they have compared to Obama? Very little. But neither did the other two lib speakers that I received extra credit for attending speeches by: a female journalist from England, and a Hispanic woman speaking on 'diversity' in the media and what words we are allowed to use to describe aliens or immigrants who are here illegally. Shockingly, "illegal alien" and "illegal immigrant" were not among the allowed phrases.
 
45Perm Dude
ID: 420241913
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 14:52
in the spirit of intellectual curiosity, a professor should not be bribing people to be indoctrinated...

Indoctrinated? By listening to a speach from a Democrat? My goodness! Who knew that listening to a Democrat required "other viewpoints" to prevent "indocrination!" Wouldn't want that now, would we?
 
46azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 15:07
Holy crap! I just read the text of the Father's Day Speech that MITH linked to. It seems as if you've cherry-picked the good parts.

So Perm Dude asked me this: "but his policy position on nearly every issue is one of victimization and big government. Well now, we're finally getting to a point in which facts can enter the discussion. What issues in particular?"

Here's the first one, since it's timely to today's discussion. And it just so happens occurs right in the middle of Obama's great conservative values speech:

We should reward fathers who pay that child support with job training and job opportunities and a larger Earned Income Tax Credit that can help them pay the bills.

We should reward fathers for paying child support? So the fathers are the victims here. Since when do we reward people for not being morally bankrupt? And how do we reward them? With big government of course, a plan that would cause the state to effectively pay a portion of their child support.

We should expand programs where registered nurses visit expectant and new mothers and help them learn how to care for themselves before the baby is born and what to do after

Because new mothers are victims and deserve a big government program.

We should help these new families care for their children by expanding maternity and paternity leave, and we should guarantee every worker more paid sick leave so they can stay home to take care of their child without losing their income.

Because new families and workers are victims and need a new government solution.

Obama makes his most conservative speech ever, and we still get these examples of the politics of victimization and big government solutions at the end of it?

Perm Dude, do you really need me to go through his policy proposals looking for more? This sounds like I've taken on a heavier workload than I thought.
 
48boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 15:08
The professors probably think that the students would rather see a liberal speaker than a conservative one. I know at the university here all the liberal speakers get top billing and deservedly so as more people go to see them. while conservatives usually talk at the smaller venues and get smaller audiences.
 
49Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 15:12
We should reward fathers for paying child support? So the fathers are the victims here.

I'm pretty sure you misunderstand the meaning of the word 'victimization'.
 
50azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 15:16
victimize - verb - to make a victim of.
victimization - noun form

No, I'm pretty sure I've got it. Obama sees everyone as a victim, thereby making victims of them.
 
51Perm Dude
ID: 205111615
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 16:20
Er, no. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to "victims."

We should reward fathers for paying child support...

That's not what he said, azd. People who are fulfilling their responsibilities and trying to get ahead should be helped when possible. That section was prefaced by We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them. Are you against this?

We should expand programs where registered nurses visit expectant and new mothers and help them learn how to care for themselves before the baby is born and what to do after

This is a multi-level proposal, but it makes solid financial sense. Health care costs skyrocket later, and poor pre-natal and newborn care is particularly pricey for us all. Even selfish conservatives can at least buy into the financial argument, as they can't escape the financial burdens as easily as they try to dodge the moral ones.

You're stuck on stupid (victim) here, adz. Really too bad. Hopefully you'll turn your brain on soon.
 
52Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 17:06
a professor should not be bribing people to be indoctrinated with a certain viewpoint without making a similar option for students to hear the other viewpoint.

indoctrinated?? strong word there - this ain't Nazi Germany.

it's not the professors bringing the speakers to campus.

i feel pretty comfortable that if John McCain or Mitt Romney or GW Bush or any other republican of similar or relative significance as Obama spoke at ASU, the same professors would give the same extra credit.

 
53walk
ID: 181472714
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 17:08
azd, it does seem like a disconnect on this victimization thing here. PD's #51 seems to hit the nail on the head regarding Obama's stance.

Regarding your involvement in politics just after graduation....good for you! I was brain dead about politics all the way through college and grad school. You are much more involved at a much younger age, so cool.

Not sure why ASU gives credit for Obama and not republicans...you'll have to bring that one up with your local senator.

;-)
 
55Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 17:28
AZD

Nowhere does Obama characterize deadbeat fathers as victims. He seeks to help train them them to better take care of their responsibilites on their own. And I believe part of the intended impact is that fathers who are better equipped to support their children will be more likely to play a role in raising them. As Obama states in his speach, children who grow up without a paternal influence are far less likely to graduate high school, far more likely to live below the poverty line in adulthood, far more likely to be involved in criminal activity and far more likely to be deadbeat dads, themselves. The cycle is undenyable and it's vicious.

So the victims in this are the abandoned mothers and children - and the state, which, aside from the burden of dealing with the multi-tiered aftermath of a family abandoned by it's father, is also taken advantage of by the deadbeats who get out of paying child support by staying unemployed, and are therefore often collecting welfare, themselves. A measure designed to prevent men from becomming deadbeats and perhaps to reform some who already are will address those burdens.

Of course it's a sad state of things that so many American fathers require any incentive at all to support their children. But the situation is what it is. This is a proposal that endeavors to begin a new trend that endures through generations.

I agree that in a perfect world the conservative ideal is self reliance. If I lived in a perfect world I would indeed support that ideal. But we live in the real world and I think providing help and incentives for men to support their families is worth a try, especially when the alternative is to continue to support their families with tax money. Promoting self reliance (even if that means providing some incentives and funding for it) is the opposite of victimization.
 
56Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 17:40
Of course what we're talking about is the ascribing of victimhood, which I have been lazily substituting 'victimization' for. I should do a better job at writing what I mean.
 
57azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 18:04
walk - nice comments about me personally, except I'm 33 - this is my second time around. But I cared about politics the first time I was in college, back in 1993, as well.

MITH - I'll take your lead and replace victimization with the clearer 'ascribing victimhood'. So:

Promoting self reliance (even if that means providing some incentives and funding for it) is the opposite of ascribing victimhood.

We disagree here. Everything I quoted Obama saying was the equivalent of "we think you are all little children, but don't worry, government will take care of you."

I have a huge problem with the government having anything to say about how people raise their children. I believe parenting classes and other help to people who need it is great, but that should all be done privately through churches and other charitable organizations.

Tree - I apologize for the other day. You seem a lot more reasonable than I remember you.

PD - We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them. Are you against this?

Two answers to that. First, like so much of what Obama says, in the abstract who could be against that?

But do I think we need a new government program to do it? No. Do I believe that government should be in the business of making it easier to do some things and more difficult to do others? No, unless you mean by fining or imprisoning those who do break the law.

One way to make it easier for fathers to make responsible choices would be to eliminate all of the unnecessary programs and agencies that Obama seems to want to add to, and allow the fathers to take home a larger portion of their paychecks.
 
58Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 18:26
AZD

I have to say that your definition of "liberalism" is anything you think is wrong, of course leading to your definition of "conservative" as all things that are great. It is a waste of time discussing anything with people who think like that.

For instance, child support. Those who are against big government should be decrying any program that requires someone to provide financial support to anyone under the threat of government sanction. Is it not the conservative mantra that people need to be held responsible for the choices they make? Why should women, then, be "coddled" by the government? Did they not make the decision to have sex? Who here does not know that sex could lead to a child? If you cannot support the child on your own, don't have sex.

No, you say that women should be protected from having to bear the entire financial burden of child rearing. The judicial system needs to swoop in and order men to pay these women or face sanction for failing to do so. Take out a loan or enter into some contract in the business world and fail to live up to your end of the bargain, well, the worst fate you may face is a judgment from a civil court. Fail to support a woman and you can lose your drivers license or even end up in jail thanks to that meddling government.

But you hail this government intervention. This is called "picking and choosing" which programs are liberal and which are conservative and once you loosen the definitions from their philosophical mores, discussion is pointless.
 
59Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 18:27
Everything I quoted Obama saying was the equivalent of "we think you are all little children, but don't worry, government will take care of you."

But that's not what he's saying. He's saying, rather than have the government take care of your family for you, here's some job training so that you can go out and do it yourself. It's actually the most economically conservative, pro-small government proposal I can think of, short of simply leaving people to starve and freeze. Do you honestly believe that support for perpetuating the current welfare state (which is what you are doing here with your outright rejection of this proposal with no proposed alternative) is really a position that is less favorable to those who ascribe victimhood to deadbeat dads (which is still a contortion of the term but I use it to frame the discussion in terms you insist on)?

I have a huge problem with the government having anything to say about how people raise their children.

You have a problem with government promoting the traditional family unit?


Tell me, do you support private school vouchers?
 
60Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 18:45
I should take that back. victimhood simply does not fit within this issue.

Ascribing victimhood means to paint a particular group as having been failed by the state or by society some other entity and therefore deserving of direct assistance from the responsible party for correcting the unjust situation it has allegedly created.

Affirmative action programs, for example, are supported and defended by ascribing victimhood to minorities at the hands of society. The argument goes that society is responsible for repressing these groups and therefore owes it to them to counter that repression.

But no one here has ascribed victimhood to deadbeat dads. By your use of the term, you could claim the government names as victims anyone who ever benefits from any social program. That's not at all what the term means.
 
61azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 18:49
Seattle Zen - You claim that I say that: "women should be protected from having to bear the entire financial burden of child rearing. The judicial system needs to swoop in and order men to pay these women or face sanction for failing to do so.

I never said anything of the kind! In #46 I called failing to help out financially with a child you helped conceive "morally bankrupt." But I never once suggested the government should be in the business of enforcing my morality.

In #57 I said, "I have a huge problem with the government having anything to say about how people raise their children."

And I closed with this: "One way to make it easier for fathers to make responsible choices would be to eliminate all of the unnecessary programs and agencies that Obama seems to want to add to, and allow the fathers to take home a larger portion of their paychecks."

I advocate that people make good decisions in life. I don't advocate that government force people to make good decisions.

So I don't know where this comes from:

"But you hail this government intervention. This is called "picking and choosing" which programs are liberal and which are conservative and once you loosen the definitions from their philosophical mores, discussion is pointless."

I clearly didn't pick and choose which programs are liberal or conservative. I really never talked about the subject other than to agree that taking care of one's child is an example of positive behavior.
 
62azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 19:00
MITH - You're losing me with all the semantic wrangling. I don't even know what we're arguing anymore.

To the three things you said that didn't lose me...

It's actually the most economically conservative, pro-small government proposal I can think of, short of simply leaving people to starve and freeze. Do you honestly believe that support for perpetuating the current welfare state (which is what you are doing here with your outright rejection of this proposal with no proposed alternative) is really a position that is less favorable

You say I offer no alternative, although I've mentioned the alternative indirectly repeatedly.

My alternative is that we get rid of all re-distributive programs and lower taxes, thereby allowing people to donate more of their money to their favorite church or charity.

We make it clear that government is not going to be the solution to your problem anymore, so all the groups that spend millions of dollars lobbying politicians to add a new program can do something useful with their lives and start a charity to do what they want done instead.

You have a problem with government promoting the traditional family unit?

Yes.

Tell me, do you support private school vouchers?

I have a feeling that somehow you're going to say there's a contradiction here, but yes.
 
63Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 19:02
One way to make it easier for fathers to make responsible choices would be to eliminate all of the unnecessary programs and agencies that Obama seems to want to add to, and allow the fathers to take home a larger portion of their paychecks."

This is part of the unrealistic ideal i referred to earlier. The overwhelming majority of men we're talking about are in the very low percentiles of wage earners - those who are employed at all, that is. They already pay hardly anything in taxes. Many of them find they are much better off financially by staying unemployed and collecting whatever assistance they are afforded rather than working full-time at a near minimum wage job and handing a large portion of their meager earnings over to their child's mother. Helping with an opportuinty to earn a better living is an attempt to break a cycle that has been a drain on our society.
 
64Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 19:02
When you responded to:

We should reward fathers who pay that child support with job training and job opportunities and a larger Earned Income Tax Credit that can help them pay the bills.

as such:

We should reward fathers for paying child support? So the fathers are the victims here. Since when do we reward people for not being morally bankrupt? And how do we reward them? With big government of course, a plan that would cause the state to effectively pay a portion of their child support.


and not: "I don't believe in state ordered child support", I think the only logical conclusion is that you support the government program of child support. If you do not, feel free to state so now.
 
65Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 19:09
Post 62:

We make it clear that government is not going to be the solution to your problem anymore, so all the groups that spend millions of dollars lobbying politicians to add a new program can do something useful with their lives and start a charity to do what they want done instead.

For the life of me, I'll never understand why conservatives want to remake the country in the image of Sierra Leone. Thankfully, there are very few of you who feel that way. Some people enjoy making philosophic arguments about what America would be like if they were Emperor so they could do away with 220 years of history, laws, and reason and impose some idealized tyranny of the mighty. These arguments are rarely interesting.
 
66azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 19:15
Zen - I believe people should obey the law (whether or not it is right) or be willing to accept the consequences of failing to do so. That is the main point. The second point would be that I do believe it is morally bankrupt to not help support one's offspring. The third point is that if anyone is going to be paying child support, I certainly don't want it to be the taxpayer.

To be honest, I've never thought about child support in depth, as it has never entered into play in my life. After pondering it, I would have to say I'm against it.

But until the law is changed, I think it should be obeyed.

The question I have, is why did you feel the need, with scant evidence that I'm being inconsistent, to jump to the conclusion that I don't uphold my philosophy consistently?
 
67walk
ID: 4952035
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 19:58
Still good debate compared to much of the other liberl / conservative discussions. I, duh, agree with the liberal views.

azd, I see second time around...still you were involved in the first time around...cool.

I know that Dems and liberals are more likely to be more for government solutions. I find my liberal views to be more based on civil liberties, taxing rich for the poor (to some degree and not for a trillion programs, selective programs), anti-war, and I really love Rage Against the Machine. Ya see, we are happy!

I think the government is suppoooooosed to be more impartial and suppooooooooosed to be less corrupt or motivated by pure greed. So, when I see private contractors in Iraq getting paid gobs of money (wasted taxpayer money) for stuff the government should be doing, then I think something is wrong. If the government is too resource thin and has to hire these contractors, then the government was inappropriately stripped and failed to recruit, hire and develop these personnel. Companies like Halliburton exist, and have a place, (but of course not THAT company in THAT place at THIS time to THAT degree), but not companies like Blackwater. That's a lot of spending. Examples like that are where capitalism has gone way too far.

I am also for socialized medicine. I think that unfortunately in a society like our's, there are too many people who need healthcare that don't have it and are never going to be able to afford to get it. In this case, for something that important, I am for the government providing it. I realize some will take advantage, but more will get it that need it and who are decent but on hard times. Stuff like that makes me a liberal, I guess.
 
68azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 20:42
Yeah, we won't find much to agree on, walk.

I think government is, by definition because of the massive power required to do what it does, the most highly corruptible form of human interaction possible.

I truly believe a limited government is a necessary evil. Unlimited, it is an unnecessary evil.

And that influences my beliefs and is why I'm not a liberal.

So it's cool, we'll never be able to convince each other of much. Which is fine. The only time I get upset in a discussion is when I think there is a possibility of changing the person's mind, if only I could get through to him. Or when people are mean-spirited. You are neither, which must be why I put you on my list of people I enjoy discussing things with.
 
69Tree
ID: 275501620
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 22:03
Tree - I apologize for the other day. You seem a lot more reasonable than I remember you.

apology accepted, and if my response was as fierce, the apology goes both ways.

i believe in another thread, you said you matured (in regards to homosexuality and criminalization). so, others can't? ;o)

seriously - to me, you'd do well to not falling into the bitter name calling camp that Baldwin, Boxman, and Jag fall into. the other conservatives here, such as Madman and MBJ, are definitely held in a higher regard, at least in part because they don't sink into the sewer too much.

Ironically, considering the thread we're in, it was Obama's take on politics that helped me "mature". reading his book has been a big inspiration to me, and although i don't succeed all the time, i'm much more apt to take the high road now.
 
70Razor
ID: 17521223
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 22:14
I truly believe a limited government is a necessary evil. Unlimited, it is an unnecessary evil.

Government has a purpose. So does corporation. You claim in another thread that you would not care if Bill Gates owned 90% of the world. Why fear for one and not the other?
 
71Madman
ID: 7538321
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 22:32
You claim in another thread that you would not care if Bill Gates owned 90% of the world.

I'll pipe in here ... are you also giving that Bill Gates the right to put me in jail? Conscript my income? Draft me into the army? If not, I fail to see the parallel.
 
72azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 22:34
Razor-

Because Bill Gates, unlike a government, cannot confiscate my income or my property, he cannot imprison me, he can't tell me what I can't do, and he can't tell me what to do. He can't tell me what school my daughter has to go to, can't tell me what job I can or cannot do, he can't put me to death and he can't suspend my rights in time of war.

He ultimately has no meaningful power over my life. Government, no matter how benevolent, controls some areas of my life.
 
73Seattle Zen
ID: 29241823
Mon, Jun 16, 2008, 23:21
I think you'ld find that when one owns 90% of the world, then, yes, he would have meaningful power over all of our lives. If you wanted to work, it would be for him. If you wanted to be in business, he would be 90% of your customer base.

The question I have, is why did you feel the need, with scant evidence that I'm being inconsistent, to jump to the conclusion that I don't uphold my philosophy consistently?

In your other thread, you stated that of this list: DEA EPA? CIA? FBI? FCC? SEC? FAA? ATF? you would get rid of all but the FBI and CIA. You say that a limited government would enforce the laws and imprison the law breakers. Well, the SEC is also a law enforcement agency, well, it was back when there were Administrations who believed in enforcing laws against financial criminals ;) Likewise, the FAA has the ability to punish airlines who operate unsafely. So, in Azdbacker's world, the criminal statutes the FBI and the CIA investigate are worthy of support. Things like drug crimes, the Mann Act, foreign threats to US interests, but financial companies should not be hampered by laws (SEC), the airwaves should be a free for all (FCC), our water supply is not worth protecting at a federal level and industries should not be held to environmental standards, only free market ones (EPA). Ask a thousand conservatives which government programs they would keep and you will get a thousand answers. Ask the same conservative the same question and as he matures, his answer changes. You may think you have a black and white political philosophy, but that does not exist.
 
74azdbacker
ID: 0512172
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 04:16
Seattle Zen -

If you wanted to be in business, he would be 90% of your customer base, etc...

I'm pretty sure that if Bill Gates owned 90% of the world's property, and I was in the business of selling hamburgers, Bill Gates couldn't eat 90% of my hamburger production. I'm pretty sure I could do a damn good business without him ever buying a hamburger from me. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't buy 90% of my SUV's if I was an SUV maker. The bottom line is that Bill Gates could have 90% of the money in the world, and I could still do well by effectively serving a small percentage of the remaining 10% of existing money.

The bigger point is that the scenario of someone exercising such extreme power over others is inconceivable under any sort of market economy we've ever seen in this country. It could very easily happen under a worldwide government, and has happened to smaller degrees under communist/fascist governments in other countries.

To your other points, I think we could prosecute securities crimes without an SEC, using existing laws or adding new ones as states decide. We don't have a Department of Rape or a Department of Robbery or a Department of Murder, because those crimes are handled at the state level, which saves shitloads of money.

I think the public would effectively punish airlines if they were in the habit of killing their customers, with or without an FAA. But only an FAA would come up with rules that prevent airlines from effectively identifying potential terrorists and stopping them from boarding, or killing them if they manage to get past screening.

I think state laws could prosecute people who violate environmental statutes (if I were to concede the point that anyone has a right to tell someone what to do with their own private property), and I can't think of a damn thing the FCC has ever done to the benefit of this country that private ownership of the airwaves wouldn't do more efficiently.

Humanity did manage to survive before all these agencies existed, you know. And to the extent that life may be better now for most people, I wouldn't say it's because of any federal agency. It's better because of the Bill Gates' of the world.
 
75Razor
ID: 4532926
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 09:17
I'm pretty sure that if Bill Gates owned 90% of the world's property, and I was in the business of selling hamburgers, Bill Gates couldn't eat 90% of my hamburger production.

How long do you think you'd stay in business selling hamburgers when Bill Gates owned McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Carl's, Jr, etc? Microsoft ALREADY plays Big Brother in their sector in a way that negatively impacts end consumers, and they represent just a small fraction of our economy.

We don't have a Department of Rape or a Department of Robbery or a Department of Murder, because those crimes are handled at the state level.

There is a difference between a crime that happens in one state and a crime that happens in every state. But if you wanted to get rid of the SEC in favor of having 50 state-level government oversight committees, I have to ask the question: why? It likely would be more inefficient than federal oversight and would end up costing us more, not less. Economies of scale.

I think the public would effectively punish airlines if they were in the habit of killing their customers, with or without an FAA. But only an FAA would come up with rules that prevent airlines from effectively identifying potential terrorists and stopping them from boarding, or killing them if they manage to get past screening.

In what way are you suggesting that market forces could help combat terrorism? This is a leap in logic that I am definitely missing.

I think state laws could prosecute people who violate environmental statutes (if I were to concede the point that anyone has a right to tell someone what to do with their own private property)

Externalities need to be dealt with. Merely owning the house right next to yours doesn't mean I can hold raves every night that create enough noise to wake up the entire neighborhood. Likewise, merely owning a plot of land and factory doesn't give me the right to spew pollutants into the river or into the air that negatively impact the lives of others.

I think your assumption that all markets are efficient and will "fix" any problems that may arise is a fallacious one. At the end of the day, we all want pretty much the same thing: a peaceful, happy life for ourselves and our descendants and others. How do we achieve that? Well, if you believe that people and the entities we create are not capable of reaching that on their own, then government intervention in some cases is necessary to achieve a desirable outcome. The question is not if government is good. It is. The question is how much.
 
76Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 09:42
Normally frothing-at-the-mouth-anti-Obama Mike Hendrix of ColdFury on the Father's Day speech:
He’s right, and it’s a sad statement on the paranoia and bigotry of many in the black community, even at this late date, that only a black man could make it without fear of provoking accusations of racism when he did. Kudos to him for doing so. Yes, I really mean it.

How he reconciles this with his own statist views — views which birthed the welfare-state programs that have done more than anything else over the years to handicap black families, if not destroy them outright — is another puzzle altogether. But it doesn’t much lessen the unexpected pleasure of hearing him argue for responsibility over victimhood, and I think he deserves at least a respectful nod of appreciation and encouragement for it.
Of course if Mike paid just a little more attention he'd have a few clues to solving that puzzle of his, but as one of the most rabid and hostile anti-left blogs with a large readership out there, Obama earning any praise from them at all is quite an accomplishment.
 
77Seattle Zen
ID: 29241823
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 10:20
I sleep better at night knowing that when my daughter gets on an airplane, this horrible "nanny state" prohibits the airline from killing "potential" terrorists.

I'm sorry that America is such a disappointment to conservatives. But as Baldwin points out, y'all are only here for a few years, you've got an eternity ahead of you in Heaven. Unfortunately, your God owns 100% of the market up there, but they claim he is a benevolent dictator.
 
78Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 11:12
When government is more efficient than private industry

The report card compares Medicare and seven national commercial health insurers on the timeliness and accuracy of claims processing. It is based on a random sample drawn from 3 million claims.
There are no grades such as A, B and C, and many of the technicalities may not mean much to most patients. But business leaders and health policy makers are interested in cutting an estimated annual $210 billion in wasted administrative claims processing costs, the AMA said.
UnitedHealthcare had the lowest rate of contract compliance, according to the AMA report. About 62 percent of medical services billed were paid by UnitedHealthcare at the contracted rate,
compared with 71 percent for Aetna and 98 percent for Medicare.
UnitedHealthcare spokesman Gregory Thompson said doctors and their billing services share responsibility for prompt payment.
Medicare performed better than the private insurers in most areas, said Lawrence Casalino, a University of Chicago health economist and former physician. Commercial insurance plans compete by promising employers that they are tough on holding down the cost of claims, he said.
''There's no question that administrative costs for doctors and the country would be a lot lower in a single-payer system,'' Casalino said. A market-based system has advantages of competition, choice and innovation, he said, but ''are the benefits enough to justify the cost?''



Let government compete

But it’s not just the cost of marketing, advertising, lobbying and providing profits for investors that makes a private insurer’s overhead so much higher. Insurers also have higher administrative costs because they are constantly enrolling and disenrolling customers as people change plans. (The average turnover in an employer-sponsored insurance plan is 20% to 25% a year. By contrast, Medicare patients stay put. Even if they could switch, most prefer Medicare’s coverage to the coverage they had under a private insurer.)


In Money-Driven Medicine, I quote former Medicare chief Bruce Vladeck who points out that:


“. . . even very efficient insurers must spend roughly 5 percent of their premiums just to enroll and disenroll customers . . . . This is why, when I was in Washington, some of us talked about giving people age 55 to 65 the opportunity to voluntarily enroll in Medicare –letting them pay premiums to the government in exchange for full Medicare coverage . . Donna Shalala, who was Secretary of Health and Human Services at the time, said to me, ‘You really want to compete with the insurance companies, don’t you?’


And I said, ‘You bet,” Simply because our costs were so much lower, I knew I could beat them.’”


I am normally adverse to expanding the bureacracy for any reason, but the health insurance industry is broken. If the government is allowed to compete with private industry, it would force the private insurers to become more efficient, pay doctors in a timely manner, and not look for every way to reject a claim.


 
79walk
ID: 181472714
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 13:28
#78, PV, agreed. Healthcare is one example where I would like more government intervention (and am one of the luckier one's Michael Moore discussed in his "Sicko" movie given I have excellent healthcare coverage through a large, private employer).
 
80azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 13:39
Once that happens, then we have to take seriously the plurality of Dems who want to nationalize the oil industry:

Rasmussen: Plurality of Dems Want to Nationazlize Oil Industry
 
81Perm Dude
ID: 11544178
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 14:08
(37%) believe the oil industry should be nationalized.

Seems like a bit of cherry picking there.

This is called a pluratity because it isn't a majority. Or even close. Given the uncertainty in the energy field these days, this shouldn't be any surprise.
 
82azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 14:23
And 24% don't know enough to have an opinion.

I would say we've reached a major paradigm shift when over 60% of the people in the largest political party in the U.S. don't immediately leap up in protest at the mere thought of the U.S. government taking over an entire industry.
 
83Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:15
Once that happens, then we have to take seriously the plurality of Dems who want to nationalize the oil industry

Maybe you take it seriously, or maybe your just trying to change the subject with a diversionary tactic.

The government is already in the health insurance business, with Medicare, Medicaid, CHIPS. The suggestion is to allow the government to compete with private insurance entities, since, as pointed out above, the cost of marketing, advertising, lobbying and providing profits for investors that makes a private insurer’s overhead so much higher.

The problem is that once the bureacracy is established, the government usually finds a way to expand it beyond any sense of economic prudence. Medicaid, for example, should be scrapped and retooled from the ground up. Why should the poor get access to free health insurance, and a huge section of the middle class not? Plus, the poor drive up the cost of health care by running to the doctor or the ER for a stubbed toe. If they had to come up with a co-pay for every trip, even as low as $20, you'd likely see a huge drop in the number of visits per year, at taxpayer expense, in the number of Medicaid cases per year.

But I digress. The government is not directly involved in the oil industry. In order to nationalize the oil industry, the government would have to literally seize the assets of the oil companies in order to operate. Not even the most liberal of Supreme Courts could ever approve of such a plan.

A more apt analogy would be if the government formed a national oil company from scratch, then ceased to lease public lands to private companies, using those lands as the source of their extractions.
The loss from the leases, as well as the loss from taxes paid by the private oil companies, would make the whole venture economically unfeasable.

 
84Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:23
In order to nationalize the oil industry, the government would have to literally seize the assets of the oil companies in order to operate. Not even the most liberal of Supreme Courts could ever approve of such a plan.

Read Kelos, recall the last time the Federal government seized thr steel and coal industries then reconsider that.
 
85biliruben
ID: 52561217
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:26
Geez, MBJ. You are going to get me all excited!

No, I wouldn't want to nationalize the oil industry, just cut off their subsidies.

I would love to nationalize the health insurance industry, however!
 
86Perm Dude
ID: 11544178
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:31


At the Texas state GOP convention. Apparently not everyone got the memo.
 
87azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:39
Pancho - The suggestion is to allow the government to compete with private insurance entities, since, as pointed out above, the cost of marketing, advertising, lobbying and providing profits for investors that makes a private insurer’s overhead so much higher.

You could make this argument for any industry. And you include one of the answers to why not to when you point out that private companies are "providing profits for investors."



 
88biliruben
ID: 52561217
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:43
I think the key to whether an industry should be public or private is whether or not is a functioning, competitive market, or it could reasonably be modified to be one. Healthcare does not seem to be a functioning market, as there is a huge disconnect between the payer and the provider of the good. It is also unethical to withhold the good. I think it's impossible to create a functioning market for a good, with those basic circumstances.
 
89azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 15:49
bili - I don't see how it is unethical to withhold the good. I do see that it is clearly unethical to force someone to perform labor.

Do you believe someone has a right to demand that you provide them a service for nothing?
 
90Perm Dude
ID: 11544178
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:01
I do. So do you, in fact. You believe abortion is wrong, yes?

The difference is a matter of degree. It isn't that we are all citizen/states and can withhold ourselves from all considerations.
 
91biliruben
ID: 52561217
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:04
Yes, hospitals have an ethical duty to admit emergency patients.

Yes, I believe healthcare is a right. I think if a person does not have the ability to pay that we, as a society, have an ethical obligation to not let people die in the street.
 
92Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:11
recall the last time the Federal government seized thr steel and coal industries

There is a big difference between nationalizing an industry and the temporary operating of industry by the government during war as provided by the War Labor Disputes Act during WW2 for instance.

And while I would usually defer to the lawyer concerning issues of law, I've got to think Kelos and industry nationalization are completely different subjects.
 
93azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:15
bili - Yes, hospitals have an ethical duty to admit emergency patients. Yes, I believe healthcare is a right. I think if a person does not have the ability to pay that we, as a society, have an ethical obligation to not let people die in the street."

Hospitals do admit emergency patients, and private charity pays for much of this work. I say that as someone who benefited from a private charity when I made the stupid decision to drop my health insurance when I went back to college.

But if I'm going to die, and the only thing that will save me is a $1000 procedure, do you believe government has the right to either force the provider of the service to bear the cost or force the taxpayer to pay for it?

What if the procedure costs $1 million? $1 billion? Eventually we're going to reach a cost where you admit that it is not unethical to deny service.
 
94Perm Dude
ID: 11544178
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:22
In the real world those kinds of decisions are made everyday, in thousands of hospitals across the country. And no one is weighing million dollar decisions on the destitute.

It is a specious argument, in other words.

Yes, government needs to cover emergency care when people can't pay for it. (And they need to cover lawyers when people can't pay for one either).

It is the cost of living in a society. And that's what we live in.
 
95biliruben
ID: 52561217
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:26
Well, if you really want to know, I think we have an ethical obligation to pay for it, within reason. As much as politicians of all stripes refused to admit it, I realize we don't have the resources to pay for all the care in this country. It's currently rationed based on a person's ability to pay. I think it should continue to be rationed, but based on more thoughtful criteria than the thickness of someone's wallet. We need to look at both the costs and the benefits, and well as years of productive, fruitful, and enjoyable life a person can be expected to live.

I wouldn't give an alcoholic riddled with cancer a liver transplant (though my stepfather received one).

I would give a poor orphan child with treatable stage 1 lymphoma access to any and every treatment available.

There are lines we can draw, but we have to get the people skilled at weighing the costs and benefits to start figuring out where to draw them.
 
96Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:29
Pancho - you're right, they're not directly analogous; however, they're instructuve and defintely call into question your assuredness that SCOTUS would never allow the government to literally seize the assets of the oil companies.


I think it's clear that they would, given the right circumstances.
 
97Boldwin
ID: 295161616
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:30
PD

That pin is just horrible. It's a whole 'nuther country down there, I guess.
 
98Perm Dude
ID: 11544178
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:33
Yeah--I would hope that the organizers ran the guy outta there.
 
99Perm Dude
ID: 11544178
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:36
Despite the snarky ending to this post here it does look like the organizers had no idea about it. It really is over the top, but with so much stuff available it was probably easy to miss it.
 
100azdbacker
ID: 525371610
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:38
In the real world those kinds of decisions are made everyday, in thousands of hospitals across the country. And no one is weighing million dollar decisions on the destitute. It is a specious argument, in other words.

It's not a specious argument, it's the crux of the entire argument. As you say, those kinds of decisions are made every day.

biliruben makes some reasonable comments in #95. I would agree with him on his value judgments.

Where I would disagree is that while I would give the poor orphan child access to treatment, I would give it with my own money or my charity's money. I would not give it with money I stole from biliruben and Perm Dude. And if the money couldn't be found to pay for it, I wouldn't force the guy who administers the treatment to foot the cost or force him to do the labor.
 
101biliruben
ID: 52561217
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:43
The reality is that charity picks up the bill on only a very, very tiny fraction of uninsured care. If you don't either pass it on to the insured in the form of inflated bills or get reimbursed for it by the government/taxpayer, then you would be condemning an enormous number of people to needlessly suffer and die.

That's not something I, or I think our society, can live with.
 
102Perm Dude
ID: 11544178
Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 16:45
Well, there is no "theft" going on here. The cost of government might be lowered by quite a bit, but taxes are the cost you pay to live in a society in which rights (including the right to health care) cost money.

What you don't want is an organization "by the people and for the people" to perform any sort of charity work for...people.

Now, you might not be under some kind of moral burden to help those in need but this doesn't mean that there is no obligation by doctors and hospitals to do so. In fact, I would state that doctors, by virtue of their oath, are obliged to treat those in need regardless of their ability to pay. You, on the other hand, want to relieve them of their own obligation because of some misguided sense of justice about taxes being "theft."

I think you need to think about how deep your sense of liberterism actually runs when you attempt to remove other people's career-oriented obligations.
 
103Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Jun 18, 2008, 07:20
Texas GOP cuts off button vendor - "That vendor will never be at another Republican convention again."
 
104Boldwin
ID: 11530185
Wed, Jun 18, 2008, 07:34
The reality is that charity picks up the bill on only a very, very tiny fraction of uninsured care. - Bili

The reality is that health care facilities are already doing a huge amount of free stealth socialized medicine because they are not legally allowed to turn away emergency patients and other services they sometimes perform under threat that if they turn away patients they won't qualify for participation in medicare.
 
105Razor
ID: 4532926
Wed, Jun 18, 2008, 10:05
The reality is that health care facilities are already doing a huge amount of free stealth socialized medicine because they are not legally allowed to turn away emergency patients and other services they sometimes perform under threat that if they turn away patients they won't qualify for participation in medicare.

And this is a bad thing because...


azdbacker, I think PD makes a salient point about the government being FUBU. More to the point, if the tax rate was dropped by 15% and Americans were told that various aid programs were being eliminated or cut back, how much of that extra income would go to charity? My guess is not enough...not nearly enough. As it is, there's not enough money to go around and that's with plenty of government assistance. You can argue government inefficiency wastes a lot of money, but as has been pointed out, when it comes to healthcare, the government is actually doing it better. WAY better. The VA Hospital System, by and large, is a pretty good model. Do they offer every service? No. But it's a good example that rationed healthcare is actually pretty good.
 
106Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 03:44
And this is a bad thing because... - Razor

I wouldn't use the term 'bad' neccessarily but it is at the very least problematic. Forcing the healthcare industry to work for free is a real boon to the euthanasia lobby, for one thing.
 
107Perm Dude
ID: 195231910
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 11:27
They aren't really working "for free." Like all business costs, charity cases are written off (at highly inflated prices I might add).

I haven't heard any hospitals complain about charity cases. Maybe they exist, but most of the complaining seems to come from people inserting their own politics into the argument by trying to speak for these supposedly hard-pressed organizations.
 
108Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 13:27
I haven't heard any hospitals complain about charity cases. - PD

Would going bankrupt qualify?
 
109biliruben
ID: 52561217
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 13:32
Nearly all doctors and hospitals are under huge time and monetary pressures, to the point where care is really starting to be effected. The vast, layer upon layer of bureaucracy that the private sector insurance and managed care sector has developed has essentially sucked our health care system dry in a misguided and futile attempt to instill a working and competitive health care market. Doctors are retiring early and recommending to the children and anyone else who will listen not to follow in their footsteps.

The only solution I can see is to nationalize the health insurance industry now, wipe out the layers and layers of unnecessary bureaucracy that is where the profits are going, cut our healthcare costs in half and improve the standard of care to that of a developed nation again.
 
110Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 13:51
Well because letting the government run things would eliminate layer upon layer of bureaucracy, missguiding, futility...I see.

Get lawyers hands out of the mix, slash government red tape, get third party payers out of the system and restore the natural market dynamic between user and provider and you would actually do those things.
 
111biliruben
ID: 52561217
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 14:05
What natural market dynamic? Do you plan on putting your aortic bypass on your Visa?

There is no natural market dynamic for a product that people can't live without. It's stupid to try to smash the square peg of health care into the round whole of a functioning capitalist marketplace.

It just doesn't work.
 
112sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 14:11
Re the 'charitable' health care costs born by providers...how much of those costs are recouped when I get billed $14.82 for a band-aid? Or $37.55 for the sleeping pill they woke me up to give me?
 
113biliruben
ID: 52561217
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 14:16
You get the picture, Sarge.

In fact, many of the people eligible for Charity Care aren't informed of the fact, even in non-profit hospitals that are required to provide that care in order to maintain their tax-exempt status.

Many hospitals are running on slight-of-hand.
 
114Perm Dude
ID: 165211913
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 14:21
Actually, Baldwin, a recent study showed that government run systems run more effiently, at lower cost, than private systems. If you are going to use bloated goverment as your bugaboo, you will have to do so without the facts as your companion.

Would going bankrupt qualify?

Only if it were true. Which it isn't. Not so long ago conservatives like yourself were Chicken Little-ling hospital "bankruptcies" as an example of lawsuits gone amuck. Now these "bankrupties" are a result of hospitals providing charity care (care that the hospitals inflate their paper costs for, then write off). What's next--hospital bankrupties are an example of the effects of Gitmo closing?
 
115Madman
ID: 7538321
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 20:27
There is no natural market dynamic for a product that people can't live without. Like food?

It's stupid to try to smash the square peg of health care into the round whole of a functioning capitalist marketplace. Red herring. Healthcare delivery is already a capitalistic marketplace. Hospitals and providers advertise and compete for customers, etc. What is being discussed here is healthcare financing. This may also be important, but it's not the same thing as healthcare.

Actually, Baldwin, a recent study showed that government run systems run more effiently, at lower cost, than private systems. If you are going to use bloated goverment as your bugaboo, you will have to do so without the facts as your companion.

What study is this? Remember that in the United States, Medicare is almost entirely privatized, except for certain functions like the DOJ, overall admin & pricing (within CMS).

Also remember that I work for a company with both a commercial healthcare financing wing and a Medicare processing & programming wing. Do you think we would be so stupid as to be told to do things efficienty on one side of our shop and not be efficient on the other? The structure and the product is just different, resulting in different levels of accounting costs. An argument that we're efficient on one side of the company and not the other, however, is a mirage.

Some "facts" to investigate ... how does CMS deal with ESRD, the only truly nationalized disease-state? Read about their Epogen pricing problems? Remember also that before the Republicans & Clinton fixed the coinsurance percent, Medicare was bilking seniors, charging them an average of 47% coinsurance even though they really only were responsible for 20% (1997 BBA). It took more than a decade to get that fixed. Any private insurer would have rightly been sued so fast their heads would have spun off.

Ever tried to lookup your Medicare claims online? Oh yeah, I forgot, Medicare doesn't bother to offer seniors that service. But they do have good customer service reps. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's been privatized, too.

Ever tried to fraudulently process Medicare claims for services that never happened? Got rich doing that? Why not? Not like you're going to get caught. Yeah, private insurers actually pay people to make sure that if a doctor claims he offered a service then he really did. Those evil bastards. And yes, that costs a tiny bit of admin.

Why can't Medicare risk-adjust hospital outpatient surgery episodes? Why does Medicare slam anaesthesiology? Why did it take more than a decade to even BEGIN to address the cardiology overpayment issue ... in the meantime, physician groups reacted to the crappy incentives, overbuilt the US cardiology infrastructure, and we're going to pay for this mistake for the foreseeable future.

PV 78 -- I distrust many of the conclusions from the data. Read it carefully. They aren't claiming incorrectly processed claims, for example. They are just claiming that they didn't have sufficient information to verify contractual accuracy and/or the carrier didn't also include the applicable contractual amount.

I generally agree with the AMA that we as insurers need to give the docs more transparency. My company, for example, gives away free IT to physicians to help do exactly that. Of course, many don't take advantage of it for the same (kind of valid) reason that most doctor offices still don't have electronic medical records. It's not in their comparative advantage to do so.

As to hospital contracting, it can be a mess. Not sure what to do about. The research and experiences I've had lead me to believe that our hospital infrastructure is overbuilt and misallocated. This raises costs dramatically. But as long as the hospital lobby is as strong as it is, Medicare won't give in. And as long as Medicare won't give in, this thing will limp along. Specialty clinics will skim off the good risk and bilk Medicare and to a lesser extent private payers (who generally aren't stupid enough to follow along with prices that egregious). Meanwhile, the cost crunch for our hospitals will continue to worsen. ER services are indeed public goods, but there is little political support to fund them adequately. That's why Johns Hopkins, for example, will have a crappy ER but a shiny, world-class cancer facility.

Until the government is willing to step up and actually pay for the costs that need to be socialized and/or confront woefully misallocated prices, I don't see how a nationalized financing system will do us any good.

(PS that 5% estimate for enrolling and billing is a joke. Look up Sherlock expense studies, or a variety of other industry expense studies. If any carrier has that sort of cost structure, sell their stock NOW ... and, how would Medicare extend to the sub-65 market? Remember, Medicare free-rides off the Social Security administration with their premiums withheld from individual Social Security checks ... how would Medicare figure out your premium and bill you accurately? Going to load that onto the IRS, too? Going to use the general fund? I'd hate to see the deadweight loss generated from giving everyone insurance and then jacking their taxes 50% to pay for it ... at some point, work incentives DO matter).
 
116Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Thu, Jun 19, 2008, 20:44
Actually, Baldwin, a recent study showed that government run systems run more effiently, at lower cost, than private systems. - PD

And you actually thot you could post that stinking pile without a link?
 
117Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 06:51
I can't wait to read that "study".
 
118Razor
ID: 4532926
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 08:31
This is no study, but it is a good article on the quality of the VA Hospital System.
 
119Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 09:10
Obama to forgo public campaign funding - NYT: Decision Threatens Public Financing System
 
120Razor
ID: 4532926
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 09:42
Can someone tell me the downside to the government not having to hand out a check to run a Presidential campaign?
 
121Perm Dude
ID: 45391915
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 09:53
Madman, you sound a little defensive. I'm not attaching what your industry has to do. But a government system has one advantage that a private system can never overcome: A private system, by nature, must run a profit.

Thought I'd bookmarked that study--saw a story within the last week or so. Will post it when I find it again.
 
122Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 10:37
The VA system has markedly improved, you'll get no argument from me on that one (BTW, I can't get the link to work ... I think the problem's on my end, just saying that in case some of these points seem non-responsive). Some points to consider if you're talking about that as a model:

1) It's a tightly managed environment. On the private side, it seems similar to Kaiser. Laws have made it increasingly difficult to provide that sort of financing and care on the private side, corresponding to an increased skepticism from the public.

2) It hasn't always been that way. Bureaucracies frequently take a long time to respond to demand. Getting the VA system turned around was not easy. I would argue that the private side is generally more flexible and responsive. Witness other government provision of healthcare, such as Walter Reed.

3) Notice also the geographic difficulties the VA has providing care, especially when populations migrate (like we do in the US). Our current system is much more dynamic and flexible to meet this varied demand. We also have a denser penetration into rural areas, although this is under assault.

4) The VA always has the "private" side to slush over. This also impacts their drug price negotations, since they can free ride off the private sector.

5) Physician salary and remuneration. Could you get all our docs to buy-in? We can't even get a majority of our docs to willingly use Vista-compatible IT. Similarly, any discussion of a healthcare financing system that doesn't discuss management of financial risk gives me the hives.

6) A GAO report on VA disability claim processing. Informative and related. GAO, 2005
 
123Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 10:40
But a government system has one advantage that a private system can never overcome: A private system, by nature, must run a profit.

That advantage is an accounting advantage only. Profits represent the risk-premium for doing business. I work for a non-profit, yet we have to retain capital to ensure claims processing.

The only advantages on this dimension for the government are:
a) they are huge, and therefore maximize the law of large numbers advantage;
b) the reputation of the US Treasury is stellar, and they can leverage that reputation to solicit funds in the open market at a cheaper rate than any private company.

(a) doesn't hedge against the biggest financial risks in healthcare, namely trend and technology risks. And (b) is a statement that we're going to leverage the good faith of the US Treasury.

Notice that the Medicare Actuaries, for example, load a capital accumulation amount into their annual premium calculations. You can call that "profit" or "retention" or capital-accumulation or whatever the heck you want. It's basically the same thing.
 
124Perm Dude
ID: 155392010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 11:42
Many advances in health care are already paid for by the government, Madman. Leveraging the technological, medical, chemical, and other advances that the government is already paying for is another advantage that needs to go into the mix.

Having layers and layers of competing, overlapping, and inefficient systems is an advantage in some ways, but it is hardly the only way. If health care is indeed a "right" (like "the right to a speedy trial") I wonder how self-justifying a private court system would sound when confonted with out-of-control costs...
 
125Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 13:02
Many advances in health care are already paid for by the government, Madman. I don't understand how that applies to my point.

I mentioned trend cost in healthcare. The biggest financial risk for rating -- like what the Medicare actuaries do for Medicare -- is that future costs are different than the actuaries project. My argument is that the government is not immune to this risk. Indeed, that's why Medicare is unsustainable.

but it is hardly the only way. What countries are different? I can't think of any off the top of my head.
 
126Perm Dude
ID: 155392010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 13:09
I understand (and certainly accept) your point about risk. That is, cost risks. No one is immune from it, certainly.

Pretty much all other countries, Madman, have fewer overlapping, fewed redundant, and more efficient processes surrounding health care costs. The US has succeeded in its system because of measurably better actual health care, but this doesn't mean that the financial baggage surrounding the care is the best in the world. We've succeeded in health care despite that baggage.
 
127Perm Dude
ID: 155392010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 13:34
Obama takes the values offensive

Certainly is a lot easier to put this out there right now as a sort of pre-emptive rather than after the shiite starts flying and this ad, released then, starts to look defensive and posturing.
 
128Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 13:47
Pretty much all other countries, Madman, have fewer overlapping, fewed redundant, and more efficient processes surrounding health care costs.

All systems are a mix of private/public. The marginal impact because of a few extra providers in a locality is dwarfed by all the other factors that differentiate our system.

If health care is indeed a "right" (like "the right to a speedy trial") I wonder how self-justifying a private court system would sound when confonted with out-of-control costs... Point of order again ... you're conflating healthcare and healthcare financing. Many people in this country have government-provided financing, but this doesn't mean they have access to healthcare. I would argue that our objective should be to ensure health care delivery, with financing being a secondary objective. Democrats obviously disagree.
 
129Perm Dude
ID: 155392010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 13:57
For many, the distinction is decidedly an academic one. If you can't afford health care, what does it matter that those who can afford it get it pretty efficiently?

That's the argument that the Dems are making: There are many outside the system, or who are forced to make life decisions (food or medicine?) because of the associated costs.

And, as you've pointed out elsewhere, those costs can be enormous.
 
130Perm Dude
ID: 155392010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 13:59
I meant to add: The points aren't necessarily at odds between yourself and the Dems, even though you are trying to drive down costs for profit reasons while Dems are doing so in order to have health care delivery to more people. They really are part of the larger system.

 
131Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 16:58
... even though you are trying to drive down costs for profit reasons while Dems are doing so in order to have health care delivery to more people.

We're trying to drive down costs to boost sales. Obviously, we are flat out failing. But it is not for a lack of trying. I think that's where the best argument for intervention comes into play -- with the health care cost curve directly. Change the market structure to reduce claim and admin costs.

But almost all politically saleable proposals fail to do this, mainly because no one really has any idea how to do it.
.........
This may be too detailed, but the health policy wonk view of the market as a "health insurance" market is deeply flawed. We have the employee benefits market, where companies -- primarily large ones -- are attempting to lure employees by offering an attractive benefits package. Separately, we have real insurance in the individual market and a hybrid in the small employer market.

I see little evidence that the employee benefit market is in trouble, despite a lot of whining. Corporate profits are at an all-time high, so cry me a river. Coverage levels are stagnating in this market, but that could be caused by a variety of factors.

The individual and SG markets have always been difficult. I think the big questions are (a) do we see a societal need to contribute to make sure everyone has some floor financial access to the system (equivalent question: do we wish to insure the physician's income stream if we mandate they must give care), and (b) how can that societal intervention be achieved at least cost, both in terms of governmental budgets (we don't want to hold our national defense captive to the AMA) and in terms of overall economic efficiency.

That framework leads to an entirely different set of solutions than where most academics are pushing us today.
.........
As an aside, there's a misperception that insurance companies deny claims to directly boost profits. This isn't true. The advantage of denying claims is to keep your premiums low, boosting sales (which, in turn, give you standard "profit").

Actuaries are professionally responsible for taking claims adjudication patterns into account when rating. It's discussed in two actuarial standards of practice that govern our profession. Granted, there are instance where execs could trick their actuaries, but this isn't and can't be widespread.
 
132Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 17:13
that's a great ad from Obama. definitely gives you the whole "of God and country" vibe, and i think he hits it out of the park, or at least a long triple.
 
133Perm Dude
ID: 465192016
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 17:19
do we wish to insure the physician's income stream if we mandate they must give care

This is an interesting question, since so much of a doctor's income derives from insurance companies (and, by association, all health care providers like nurses, etc). On the other side, a large expense for doctors is insurance. Surely there must be a way to bring these things together somehow.
 
134Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 17:59
that's a great ad from Obama

What's he gonna say? I hate America?

Did he learn to raise taxes and socialize medicine from the "Kansas heartland"? What is the stance of the "Kansas heartland" on abortion?
 
135Perm Dude
ID: 465192016
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 18:01
Those aren't the objections he's responding to.

I look forward to your criticism of McCain's next speech on Iraq because it will fail to address illegal immigration.
 
136Perm Dude
ID: 465192016
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 18:12
Hagel as VP?

Certainly thinking outside the box!
 
137Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 18:17
Obama said he was taught values "straight from the Kansas heartland". Go back to the video and watch it. It's a valid question.
 
138Madman
ID: 7538321
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 18:43
This is an interesting question, since so much of a doctor's income derives from insurance companies (and, by association, all health care providers like nurses, etc). On the other side, a large expense for doctors is insurance. Surely there must be a way to bring these things together somehow.

An open request to elaborate. Maybe in another thread ... not entirely what you are getting at here ... malpractice insurance cost???
 
139Madman
ID: 7538321
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 18:47
Brooks on Obama pretty much sums up my perspective. The raw ambition and rhetorical ability reminds me a lot of Clinton ... I think the big question will be whether he'll take on the Democratic Congress.

Not coincidentally, as long as McCain makes this election about Obama, my 55-45 Obama prediction will get blown out of the water. He needs to run against Congress, not Obama. Obama's too slippery, and will never tell us what he's really planning on doing.
 
140Tree
ID: 515122019
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 20:42
that's a great ad from Obama

What's he gonna say? I hate America?


i really don't expect you to get the point - point being, it's a great ad, plain and simple.

this ad wasn't about taxes, medicine, and the rights of women that you don't believe in.

it was about his roots. i suppose the McCain ads where he shows his recovery in a hospital after being a POW are f*cking awful because it doesnt address the key issues?
 
141Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 22:25
it's a great ad, plain and simple

In that Obama is full of crap when he talks about values "straight from the Kansas heartland", then yes it was a "great" ad. Thank you for clearing that up.
 
142Tree
ID: 55432022
Fri, Jun 20, 2008, 23:58
In that Obama is full of crap when he talks about values "straight from the Kansas heartland", then yes it was a "great" ad. Thank you for clearing that up.

do tell, why is it full of crap? i mean, aside from the fact that, ya know, his mom was born and raised in Kansas, and she, in turn raised him.

more and more, your hatred for Obama is starting to be frightening, and i'm starting to think it doesn't have a lot to do with his political positions.
 
143Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jun 21, 2008, 07:03
See post 134.
 
144Tree
ID: 2159218
Sat, Jun 21, 2008, 09:18
and post 134 is the same bunch of fluff that seems to be your MO lately.

your opinions, at this point, mean zilch, because you've made it pretty clear that your goal here isn't political discourse, but is to drive away those who have rival opinions.

As much as i don't like Baldwin, his input would be missed here. it's ranting and crazy and so out there (to me), but he is contributing, and he believes what he believes, and despite the fact he attacks me personally as much as he posts with substance, his input would be missed.

When Steve Houpt made a brief reappearance, i welcomed it. he and i went it like cats and dogs, but his input was coherent and passionate, and he believed in it. his disappearance again makes the forum weaker.

Madman - who i have also battled with - resurfacing and contributing often to this board is welcome and refreshing. same thing with some of the other more conservative posters, like MBJ, contribute and are a valued asset.

AZDbacker returning - seemingly with a more open mind than he had in the past to listen to other opinions - is a great value to this board.

and YOU celebrate the loss of one of the most prolific, well-researched, well-spoken, even-handed posters here?

you don't give a damn about this message board and because of that, i can't really view your posts as anything other than a method to drive away those who have different opinions than your own.
 
145Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jun 21, 2008, 09:56
This is yet another one your "take my ball and go home" moments. Whether you leave a thread or stop responding at all. I brought up a highly valid point that no one has addressed.
 
146Tree
ID: 575242110
Sat, Jun 21, 2008, 11:31
This is yet another one your "take my ball and go home" moments. Whether you leave a thread or stop responding at all. I brought up a highly valid point that no one has addressed.

what you did was basically force one of the best posters here out with your antics, and then gloat and celebrate about it like you just scored a touchdown or something.
 
147sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 12:16
Dobson attacks Obama speech as 'distorting the Bible"

The conservative Christian group provided The Associated Press with an advance copy of the pre-taped radio segment, which runs 18 minutes and highlights excerpts of a speech Obama gave in June 2006 to the liberal Christian group Call to Renewal. Obama mentions Dobson in the speech.

"Even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools?" Obama said. "Would we go with James Dobson's or Al Sharpton's?" referring to the civil rights leader.

Dobson took aim at examples Obama cited in asking which Biblical passages should guide public policy — chapters like Leviticus, which Obama said suggests slavery is OK and eating shellfish is an abomination, or Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, "a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application."

"Folks haven't been reading their Bibles," Obama said.

'Deliberately distorting'

Dobson and Minnery accused Obama of wrongly equating Old Testament texts and dietary codes that no longer apply to Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.

"I think he's deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology," Dobson said.

"... He is dragging biblical understanding through the gutter."


ummmm, doesn't that actually PROVE Obama's point? That being "Whose Christianity do we teach?" Are ther enot Christian groups in this country who DO indeed subscribe to the Tenants of the Old Testament? Are there not various Christian groups with sometimes minor and sometimes not so minor, differences in interpretation as it pertains to a specific text within the Bible?

Never ending source of amusement (and concern) to me, some of these Christian groups think that we HAVE to believe as they do, or we're heathens or murderers or worse. Such understanding and compassion for their fellow man.
 
148Boxman
ID: 337352111
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 12:48
some of these Christian groups think that we HAVE to believe as they do, or we're heathens or murderers or worse. Such understanding and compassion for their fellow man.

Kinda reminds me of the left.
 
149Perm Dude
ID: 33540241
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 12:51
There is little difference in tactics on the far left or far right.
 
150biliruben
ID: 52561217
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 13:12
Every time someone defends "their guy" by attacking the other side in some vague manner, I'm just going to interpret that as them saying "My guy is full of shit".
 
151Boxman
ID: 337352111
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 13:35
From the WSJ.

NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama
June 24, 2008; Page A17


You are the Democratic candidate for president. You want to reach out to Catholics. So what do you do when the majority of the elected officials on your National Catholic Advisory Council have the seal of approval from NARAL Pro-Choice America?

That's the position Barack Obama now finds himself in. A few months ago, his Catholic advisory council was announced with great enthusiasm, and Sen. Bob Casey (D., Pa.) was listed as a national co-chair. His appearance at the top of the council sent a clear message: This campaign is determined to recover some of the lost Democratic sheep who have gravitated to the GOP over abortion.

This council does indeed include some Catholics whose pro-life credentials are impeccable, including Minnesota Congressman James Oberstar. But let us also stipulate the obvious: Of the 21 senators, congressmen and governors listed on the council's National Leadership Committee, 17 have a 90%-100% NARAL approval rating. Even Mr. Casey now enjoys a 65% NARAL approval rating.

It's not as if these NARAL scores are outliers: Sen. Obama himself boasts a 100% NARAL rating, and for good reason. In a speech before Planned Parenthood, he declared that the right to an abortion is at stake in this election, and vowed that he would not yield on appointing judges that would uphold Roe v. Wade.

Mr. Obama is for using tax dollars to fund abortions, and against restrictions on partial-birth abortion. In the Illinois Senate, he voted against legislation protecting a child who was born alive despite an abortion. In sum, if you want to know what Mr. Obama's policies mean, it's this: taxpayer-funded abortion on demand.

Not fair, complains the Obama camp. They point to statements supporting adoption. They cite the story about how he removed language about "right-wing ideologues" from one of his Web sites after a pro-life doctor complained. Above all, they say he has acknowledged a moral dimension to abortion, that he's willing to listen, and that he wants to work for fewer abortions.

All very true. Yet this defense reflects a common complaint about the Obama campaign in general: When you look past the soothing language about "change" and the willingness to "listen," the actual policies and voting record are to the left of Ted Kennedy's and Bernie Sanders'.

It's a tough sell to present this record as auguring an America where there are fewer abortions. But some try. Generally there are two lines of argument. The first is to claim that Republicans have done nothing during their time in power to diminish abortion. Plainly this is not the view that Planned Parenthood promotes on its Web site, where President Bush's many actions are chronicled and listed under the heading "war on women." As Mr. Obama himself notes, moreover, Republicans generally do not appoint the kind of judges the pro-choice side demands: That is, judges who can be counted on to impose their own views upon the law on issues that ought properly be left to the American people.

The other line of argument is the They're-Just-As-Bad-As-We-Are defense. Thus the Web sites that go on and on about Catholic social teaching on war and poverty and greed and the death penalty, etc. The implication being, of course, that Republicans are on the wrong side of all these issues – and that simply by enumerating all these concerns, you can somehow balance out the Democratic Party's singular commitment to abortion on demand.

These issues are all legitimate subjects for debate, and each can and should be argued. The problem is that abortion is not just any issue. In the language of the church, abortion is an "intrinsic evil," always and everywhere wrong.

That is what Catholics for Obama have to get around. Given this awkward fact, the political reality is that a National Catholic Advisory Council may do less to advance Mr. Obama than to alert the public about how extreme his votes and policies are – not to mention the similar votes and policies of the Catholic politicians supporting him. Already Kathleen Sebelius – governor of Kansas and one of the Catholic co-chairs – has been asked by her bishop to refrain from Communion because of what he says is her support for abortion. As for Sen. Casey, well, let's just say it's hard to imagine his sainted father – who bucked his party's president and refused to support his old friend Sen. Harris Wofford's 1994 re-election bid over the life issue – lending his imprimatur to such a NARAL-friendly enterprise.

It's not that Catholic Democrats lack a moral language. Sen. Richard Durbin (D., Ill.), for example, is another Catholic council member who also enjoys a 100% NARAL approval rating. During recent Senate hearings, he accused oil company executives of having "all the compassion of Burmese generals."

When Mr. Durbin is willing to use similar language to describe the taking of innocent, unborn life, we'll know we have change we can believe in.

Write to MainStreet@wsj.com
 
152azdbacker
ID: 475452317
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 13:35
#147 - Somehow I managed to completely agree with Dobson's comments on what Obama is doing with OT biblical passages, and sarge's comments on what Dobson would do and Obama correctly asking if we really want the government to decide what we get to believe in.

It's funny how the left gets this idea that government enforcing values is a bad idea when it comes to religion, but a good idea in almost all other cases.
 
153Perm Dude
ID: 33540241
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 13:43
Too many bad rhetorical attempts there to bother rebutting. But the fact that one "camp" supports Obama doesn't mean that the other "camp" is unable to do so. In fact, many people (on this issue and others) are tired of the polarizing that "with us or against us" politics, mostly practiced by Republicans using fear as a weapon, has produced.

Actual Catholics identify as Democrats much more than Republicans, despite Democratic "extremism" on abortion.
 
155azdbacker
ID: 475452317
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 13:54
Catholics have always identified with the left because they identify the Biblical teaching of charity as a public, rather than private ideal.

They prefer to legislate their beliefs, much as the far right does.
 
156Perm Dude
ID: 33540241
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 14:09
Catholics have not always identified with the left, as you would know if you'd checked the link.

If you are trying to use Catholicism as a justification of some sort (another "they do it too!" call, which the Right resorts to when forced to admit they are wrong) is simply won't work here. The clear difference between Catholics and the "far right" (meaning, I believe, evangelicals since the non-religious far right have no non-political beliefs to legislate) is that Catholics have been willing to present their charitable aims in a universal manner (indeed, Catholic schools, hospitals, universities and so on are known for being, well, catholic rather than narrow). Even Allahpundit, who is about as far from a leftwinger as you'll find, gets to the heart of it, replying to Dobson attacking Obama:

That's not what he's [Obama's] trying to say. What he's trying to say is that it'd be unfair and unconstitutional to make policy based on the ipse dixits of some religion's God. You're fully entitled to fight for what you believe, but if you're going to turn it into law, you need a better justification as a legal matter than 'Because God says so.'

The Catholic Andrew Sullivan follows up on the point.
 
157azdbacker
ID: 475452317
Tue, Jun 24, 2008, 14:35
I'm not sure what your point is, Perm Dude, because I've agreed with everything you, Obama, Allahpundit and Sullivan are saying on the subject.

I benefited from Catholic charity when I had my stomach surgery. I love what they do charitably, as long as they're keeping it out of government. They have often failed to do so.
 
158Boxman
ID: 571114225
Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 15:42
 
159Perm Dude
ID: 42540259
Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 15:48
Heh. Slime all you want (including his wife). It'll all be a huge step up from George W. Bush.
 
160astade
ID: 1533770
Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 23:24
#158,

Lol, Obama looks hilarious dancing. I'm gonna have to dig up that 'Ellen' show to hear what song got him to do that.
 
161Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 04:53
I liked his dancing and the knuckle bump for that matter. These are not at all Dukakis or Dean moments.
 
162Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 11:08
Obama's Corn Fake

Barack Obama says he represents change. He also criticizes John McCain for trying to drill our way to energy independence to add to the profits of Big Oil. But it's Obama who's playing politics by trying to plant our way to energy independence, buying votes with alternative fuel subsidies that benefit ethanol producers such as Archer Daniels Midland.

ADM is based in Illinois, the second-largest corn-producing state. Not long after arriving in the U.S. Senate, Obama flew twice on corporate jets owned by the nation's largest ethanol producer. Imagine if McCain flew on the corporate jets of Exxon Mobil.......

The tariff on imported ethanol was extended. Neither candidate voted on the bill, but Obama said he supported it. McCain said as president he would have vetoed it.

If Obama is sincere about alternative fuels, why does he oppose imported sugar-based ethanol from countries like Brazil? He supports not only the domestic subsidy, but a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff on imported ethanol. McCain opposes both.

Corn ethanol is less energy-efficient


 
163Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 13:03
If Obama is sincere about alternative fuels, why does he oppose imported sugar-based ethanol from countries like Brazil? He supports not only the domestic subsidy, but a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff on imported ethanol. McCain opposes both.

I agree with McCain and disagree with Obama on this issue. I could see Sen. Obama changing his tune if he were the President of the US and no longer a senator from Cornville. At least I hope he would.
 
164Building 7
ID: 174591519
Thu, Jun 26, 2008, 23:03
Actually, Baldwin, a recent study showed that government run systems run more effiently, at lower cost, than private systems. If you are going to use bloated goverment as your bugaboo, you will have to do so without the facts as your companion.

Hey, Mr. Permdude, did you ever find this study that defies all economic thought? Was that the one done at the biliruben Institute?
 
165biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 00:23
It's a couple years old, but here's a post that links to a number studies showing it isn't even close.

A more recent study in the International Journal of Health Services found that in 2003, administration costs in the US health care system ate up about $400bn, or about 25% of total health care spending.
---
By comparison, national health care systems incur administrative costs of a few percent of total health expenditures: according to the NEJM study Canada's national health insurance system spends just 1.3% on overhead, and the US's Medicare and Medicaid programs have administrative costs of between 2-5%.
 
166Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 01:22
Amazing find Bili but the devil is in the details on this one. This subject deserves a couple years work on this forum and the rigor of Madman, I am sure you will agree.

The first thing that pops out at me...
It therefore makes sense for them to devote substantial resources to the task of trying to avoid paying claims that are brought to them. One example of this effect is how insurance companies go over claims with a fine-toothed comb to try to deny them whenever possible. A national government-run insurance plan would have no such incentive, since there would be no one to try to shift the burden to.
You would think, however...Canada in order to save money for all intents and purposes denies lyme disease exists. While experts claim you can get lyme disease anywhere in Canada and that it is massively underdiagnosed, the Canadian medical establishment claims less than a thousand cases, refuses to diagnose it in people who have already established they do have it by going to USA clinics, refusing to recognize test results from the USA, etc. Claim it is limited to a couple localities in Canada. Like there are no deer ticks in Canada.

The incentive to deny claims x the power of the government to act like you are too unimportant to matter. A dangerous combination.
 
167Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 08:51
I'll address this later this weekend or Monday when I get home and bili's link may work ... but to piggy-back on Boldwin:

It therefore makes sense for them to devote substantial resources to the task of trying to avoid paying claims that are brought to them. One example of this effect is how insurance companies go over claims with a fine-toothed comb to try to deny them whenever possible. A national government-run insurance plan would have no such incentive, since there would be no one to try to shift the burden to.

1) Medicare has the highest denial rate of any US payer, according to the AMA (PV link above). This is likely to climb in future years as they force even more restrictive coding practices, place see-through restrictions on results, and begin to implement improved fraud detection. In contrast, the BCBSA is pushing plans to achieve 98+% real-time adjudication by 2010 (I think that's the deadline).

2) As I mentioned before, US insurance companies are *not* directly incented to deny claims whenever possible. A restrictive adjudication process is considered by actuaries when setting rates. The only way insurance companies are incented to deny claims is if relatively slimmer benefits are what the market demands.

3) My company has a Medicare processor subsidiary and private claim processor. I'm not an expert in our claim processing arenas, but I can say with reasonable authority that we aren't any more efficient in the Medicare company than we are on the private side. Medicare requires numerous redundant and wasteful expenditures that we wouldn't see on the private side.

4) Many other countries achieve cost savings through integrated healthcare delivery models. The free market in the United States generally allows for such models to exist -- if people want to buy into them. Think Kaiser. The limiting factor has been competitiveness, however, with employers and individuals generally steering clear of those sorts of managed care options. Another limiting factor has been physician willingness to accept salaried positions in leiu of lucrative business-owner / fee-for-service arrangements. These admin. cost advantages will begin to disappear, however, as we are pushing to elevate the role of the data analyst in our health care.

Government induced coercion toward those models might achieve additional administrative savings. For the past 10 years, however, governments have reflected the will of the people and steered us away from those models. It is also possible that our peculiar government would instead add to the administrative burden, requiring physicians to become expert data coders before reimbursing them for a senior's health claim. Never heard of that happening before ...
 
168nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 09:01


McCain is really taken the energy issue from Obama and leaving him in the dust. While Obama seems to focus mostly on solar, wind and bio fuels when he discusses energy policy he doesn't mention Nuclear or new drilling.

McCain has proposed 40 new nuclear plants immediately and more to come later. It's talk like this that is the only way we are going to get through this energy crisis and should have started decades ago.

Solar and wind are great ideas but they are only a drop in the bucket. To really get the energy crisis under control as we move toward peak oil we have to build nuclear energy plants and we have to start yesterday.

Energy could end up being THE issue of this race, Obama needs to get to work on the learning curve or McCain will take this issue.

My sentiments are coming from someone who will vote for neither candidate but would certainly vote for Obama over McCain based on the Iraq war issue.

 
169walk
ID: 181472714
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 09:15
While I agree energy is very important, I don't agree it will become the (or THE) issue of the race. Our electorate is not that sophisticated. While energy is clearly tied to current economic conditions (price of oil, gas prices), I think folks will just want to hear about how the economy can be turned around, as opposed to how we are going to obtain the right fuel in the near future. Personally, nerve, I agree that this is a critical issue and at the core of our eco downturn. I just don't think energy can be effectively positioned by McCain or Obama as the central issue of their campaigns.
 
170Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 15:38
Obama healthcare plan may morph into Clinton's at the behest of the health insurance industry. link ... A rogue advisor, or window into Obama's thoughts?

Also, Obama appears to be standing firm on the principle that young healthy adults fresh out of high school should be charged the same as their 60-year old parents (a principle of "fairness" also known as community rating).
 
171Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 15:54
Walk

Lots can happen between then and now but I think the price of gas will be the deciding issue in this election.

The key will be will the electorate vent their anger on business and look to government to save them or will they see government obstructionism as the culprit.

Have you heard any proposals to 'fix' the fact that the government revenue from gas taxes doubled with the doubling of the price? The government making out like bandits. The government takes 3 times as much profit from gas sales as the oil companies.

Is there any grounds for believing Dems even want the price of gas to come down? I don't think so.
 
172Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 16:16
Is there any grounds for believing Dems even want the price of gas to come down? I don't think so.

why don't you start with an informal poll on this board?

i'm a dem. i definitely want the price of gasoline to come down.
 
173Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 17:11
Dems in congress.

Dems in think tanks.

Dems in the DNC.
 
174biliruben
ID: 52561217
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 17:33
I don't. Any penny it drops below $4, turn it into a penny of tax, and apply that tax to mass transit and R&D into alternative energy.
 
175Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 19:42
Steal from the poor and give to the scientific community and city planners in their ivory towers.

There's an admission you don't get from the Robbinhood crowd very often.
 
176biliruben
ID: 52561217
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 19:50
I can just look a little bit further beyond tomorrow. Nothing more egalitarian than mass transit. Ask any New Yorker strap-hanging next to a CEO.
 
177Razor
ID: 475342117
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 19:57
I didn't realize only the poor drove, Boldwin.

And you show contempt for scientists? How? Why?

You're all over the board, as usual lately.
 
178Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 22:28
Maybe the liberals here will listen to the people of Europe about Obama....

Monsieur Obama's Tax Rates
FROM TODAY'S WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE
June 27, 2008


Celebrity chef Alain Ducasse insists that his change of citizenship this week from high-tax France to no-income-tax Monaco wasn't a financial decision but an "affair of the heart." Right. But even if he's being sincere, plenty of other Frenchmen have moved abroad to escape their country's confiscatory taxes.

Americans should be so lucky: Theirs is the only industrialized country that taxes its people even if they live overseas. That hasn't been a big problem as long as U.S. tax rates have been relatively low. But with Barack Obama promising to lift rates to French-like levels, this taxman-cometh policy could turn Americans into the world's foremost fiscal prisoners.

And make no mistake, taxes under a President Obama could be truly à la française. The top marginal tax rate, including federal, state and local levies, could approach 60% for self-employed New Yorkers and Californians. Not even France's taxes are that high now that President Nicolas Sarkozy has capped the total that high-earning Frenchmen like Mr. Ducasse can pay in income, social and wealth taxes at 50% of earnings.

Mr. Sarkozy set this "fiscal shield" because he knows that tax rates affect behavior. When he visited London this year, he observed that the British capital is now home to so many French bankers and other professionals seeking tax relief that it's the seventh-largest French city. Those expatriates choose not to use their creativity and investment capital to benefit France and its economy.

Senator Obama's plans to raise income, Social Security and capital-gains taxes amount to a belief that people don't react to punitive tax rates. If so, he needn't worry about people leaving the country and could let them pay taxes in whichever part of the globe they choose to live in. Once Americans are paying French-style tax rates, they ought to have the same freedom to move as Alain Ducasse.
 
179biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 23:00
After the last few years, somehow I don't think our bankers will be missed. Scum of the earth.

Cry me a river.
 
180Tree
ID: 95172721
Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 23:53
hmmm...what's your point Boxman? i don't think you'll get much more of a shrug from most of the "liberals" here regarding that article...
 
181nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 02:48

I don't. Any penny it drops below $4, turn it into a penny of tax, and apply that tax to mass transit and R&D into alternative energy.

Hmmm That's not like you Bili. That's a regressive tax on the poor.

To the fat cat banker or broker you hate so much, 4 bucks a gallon is nothing.

It's the retired person, the working stiff, the single mom who would get screwed by your proposal since the 4 dollar gas eats into all their excess disposable income and leaves them with nothing extra.

The guy making 6 figures could care a less.

First time I can remember you proposing a tax on the poor...interesting.

Apparently you can afford the extra price?

A bit tongue in cheek here, I know were you are coming from taxing excess gas use, but you must know this is a tax that primarily hurts the poor?




 
182nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 03:15

While I agree energy is very important, I don't agree it will become the (or THE) issue of the race.

The reason it may not be a big issue isn't the intellect of the American people, it's Obama's fear of the environmentalist constituencies who are against nuclear power and both candidates fear of big oil.

If either candidate wanted to make it an issue that would win votes, they would put together a comprehensive stump speech.

They would:

1) Explain to the American people about peak oil and the dynamics causing the price spike.

2) Rail against the foreign countries Opec etc who are getting rich off our backs.

3) Outline a plan that would not only slow down the price of oil it would reverse course.

4) This plan would include increased funding of wind and solar projects, but more importantly increasing drilling and the most important factor an immediate and aggressive campaign to build large numbers of nuclear power plants. Nuclear would be used for all electricity freeing up oil and natural gas for cars.

5) Food based bio fuels should stop immediately so corn can go back to being food to help reduced food inflation. There are promising new technologies for bio fuels that are non food based.

If this speech was repeated and explained to the American people it would win votes for the candidate and it would set us on a path to solving a lot of our energy challenges.

It would also improve the economy as energy costs and food costs are the two biggest drags on the economy aside from the housing crisis. (Which will only be solved when house prices come down)

If there are negatives about nuclear power I would sincerely like to hear them. (perhaps a new thread) The French get 90% of their electricity from Nuclear and we have been operating 104 nuclear plants since the 70's without incident since 3 mile island.

I'm hearing the technology is many times safer and more advanced since the 70's. There's no pollution unlike current sources of energy and they have gotten much more efficient at limiting and storing waste.

The people who complain about "possible" negative problems ignore the fact the the current forms of energy are causing global warming, polluting our cities, causing millions of deaths from lung cancer etc.

One has to wonder if the real reason we've avoided nuclear is the big oil interests.






 
183Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 08:05
hmmm...what's your point Boxman? i don't think you'll get much more of a shrug from most of the "liberals" here regarding that article...

And isn't that sad? I guess you guys really think the money IS the gov'ts.
 
184Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 08:46
The major issue with nuclear power is the storage of spent fuel rods which is a huge issue in Utah, since this is where much of the nuclear waste is currently being buried, about 60 miles west of Salt Lake City.

Besides the actual location of storage, there is the transportation of this waste, by rail, which has the potential for disaster. Since there has never been a spillage caused by a rail accident(or non-accident like a terrorist incident), much of this concern can be better defined as hysteria. But as we've seen with the "every Muslim wants to kill us" crowd, hysteria in America is alive and well and flourishing.

The other issue with nuclear power is the amount of water necessary to operate a nuclear plant. Areas susceptible to drought already have their water resources stretched to the limit, so future locations of nuclear plants will need to take this into consideration.

 
185Tree
ID: 30543288
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 10:06
And isn't that sad? I guess you guys really think the money IS the gov'ts.

US Citizens paying taxes?

nah, i got no problem with that.
 
186Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 10:43
What is the maximum tax rate across the different economic groups that you're comfortable with Tree?
 
187Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 11:08
I don't think we have to worry about the capital gains tax right now, since nobody's making any.
 
188Tree
ID: 405142814
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 15:16
What is the maximum tax rate across the different economic groups that you're comfortable with Tree?

i hadn't put that much thought into it, quite frankly.
 
189Boldwin
ID: 85241823
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 17:01
There's an idea for your tagline!
 
190Tree
ID: 405142814
Sat, Jun 28, 2008, 19:58
you already have it for your headstone, so i wouldn't want to steal it from you.
 
191Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jun 29, 2008, 15:35
There's an idea for your tagline!

Yep. That's right up there with Zen's salute to Chavez.

Too bad that's the best he can "defend" his position with.
 
192nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Sun, Jun 29, 2008, 17:59

What is the maximum tax rate across the different economic groups that you're comfortable with Tree?

i hadn't put that much thought into it, quite frankly.


If you are planning on voting for Obama, you might want to start putting some thought into it. It could be a defining issue. (not that McCain is an alternative choice for other reasons)

 
193Boxman
ID: 211139621
Sun, Jun 29, 2008, 18:12
Maybe "The Audacity of Hope" told Tree which tax rates were optimal which explains why he wouldn't even think about an issue that is probably at the crux of this election.
 
194Tree
ID: 54553298
Sun, Jun 29, 2008, 18:51
If you are planning on voting for Obama, you might want to start putting some thought into it. It could be a defining issue. (not that McCain is an alternative choice for other reasons)

for me, it's not. i've got much more important issues i feel more closely associated to.

it might be for some people, and that's fine. but for me, that's not the defining reason why i will vote for someone in this election.
 
195Perm Dude
ID: 485372911
Sun, Jun 29, 2008, 21:54
Tax rates are at the "crux" of this election?

How low has conservativism in this country fallen with an overreaching Executive Branch, who tell telcoms that it's OK to break the law because the President says it is OK, when they go to war in Iraq where thousands of US troops have died, when the VA hospital system those troops return to is shameful in their treatment, when the budget will take decades to come back into form, when torture is not only allowed but encouraged by the Administration, and when the rules of law are suspended for actions against American citizens--and it is tax rates which are at the "crux" of this election?

I can see why conservatives in this country supported such a terrible president like George W. Bush so thoroughly when this is their answer to our country's problems. The problem, for them, is that the wealthy might have to go back to paying the same rates as before GWB took office. The horror!
 
196Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:22
The problem, for them, is that the wealthy might have to go back to paying the same rates as before GWB took office.

* A family making $30,000 a year in taxable income is NOT wealthy (Obama voted for the 2009 budget resolution which set a revenue target based on raising taxes for everyone at or above that income level ... as linked in this thread, at least one Congressional Democrat (Foster) claims that Obama voted to raise taxes on *everyone* who pays income taxes, which is even more extreme).

* The top marginal federal rate on payroll income was not 60% before GWB took office. It was, however, more than 60% before Reagan took office.

As nerve said, taxes is the clearest distinction between the candidates, with energy coming in a close second.

Their differences on the issues you mentioned are miniscule to non-existent: torture (which they both voted against with variants), telecom immunization (which they both voted for with variants), war (where one stood "shoulder to shoulder" with Bush's failed tactics in 2004 although he argues vociferously against the tactics in place today and the other voted for the initial resolution although he argued vociferously against the tactics used in 2004), future Iraq plans (where both, according to the Iraqi Foreign minister, are basically going to end up doing the same thing ... this was also echoed yesterday on Meet the Press with the Democratic governor of Wyoming claiming that Obama and McCain were basically the same on Iraq), VA funding (where neither candidate bothered to support the troops who came home -- Public law 110-181), and deficit spending (where neither appears to give a rats-behind about the deficit).
 
197Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:27
torture

Under serious pressure from conservatives, McCain has changed his stance on torture, unfortunately.
 
198Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:41
Another defining difference ... the rhetoric: "Globalization and technology and automation all weaken the position of workers" ... taken literally, that would argue for the workers in these tribes to have the strongest relative position of any humans ... which might be the case, but I don't want to live that way.

SZ -- ?? Obama does support a different variant of the torture prohibition than McCain, but I haven't seen evidence that their stances are fundamentally different ... especially if they were the executives in question.
 
199walk
ID: 181472714
Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 14:58
McCain Voted Down Intel Authorization Bill

Roll Call

Looks like Obama did not vote.
 
200Madman
ID: 230542010
Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 10:04
walk -- that's a reflection of the discussion we had in this thread Posts 54-87+ ... it still isn't clear to me that this was an argument over substance instead of an argument over procedure and protocol.
 
201Perm Dude
ID: 1463718
Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 12:12
taxes is the clearest distinction between the candidates, with energy coming in a close second

Our continuing presence in Iraq (including the willingness to use diplomacy) is head and shoulders more important than taxes (which is merely the means through which we try to close the huge deficits rung up by the GOP).

There's really no doubt that the next President will have to raise revenue through taxes. At least Obama is being honest about it.
 
202Madman
ID: 230542010
Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 13:25
Our continuing presence in Iraq (including the willingness to use diplomacy) is head and shoulders more important than taxes That doesn't mean that there is a substantive distinction, at least according to various Democrats and the Iraqi Foreign Minister.

There's really no doubt that the next President will have to raise revenue through taxes. At least Obama is being honest about it. No he's not. Tax Policy Analysis ... Obama wants to reduce revenues by either almost $900b from 2009-2013, or $2.7 trillion from 2009-2018 (Table R2) ... notably, these estimates are derived using Obama's hoaky revenue raise estimates of $400b (2009-2013) and $924b (2009-2018). That's not being honest in the development of your initial estimates, let alone being honest that we'll have to raise revenue overall. Obama's campaign may be characterized as many things, but honest isn't one of them ... at least when it comes to the hard truths in budgeting.
 
203Madman
ID: 230542010
Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 15:36
Obama: Bush had it right on faith-based initiatives, but just didn't do enough ... Not sure if he supports the hiring practices and so forth that are attached to these programs as currently run ... a list of good questions to ask both candidates: link
 
204Perm Dude
ID: 296439
Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 16:19
Other good reason to support Obama

#203: From what I've read, there are some sharp differences in how the process will work. Zasloff pads this out a bit, but the money quote is:

The biggest difference with Bush was twofold: 1) he suggested that he would funnel money to faith-based groups for programs involving active proselytization, which is unconstitutional; and 2) he actually used the program to support groups in order to generate support for Republicans, which might have been illegal.

As a former coordinator for the Catholic Church in Chicago, I don't doubt Obama's sincerity in noting that churches (and mosques, and synagoges) are on the front lines in fighting poverty, joblessness, homelessness, and so on. In general it makes sense to funnel the money where it will do the most good. But it seems that he wants to set up some usage firewalls to ensure Constitutional protections follow the money.
 
205Boxman
ID: 571114225
Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 20:07
Thoughts?

PJB: The Wars of Religion Return
posted by Linda
by Patrick J. Buchanan


Last week’s clash between Dr. James Dobson and Barack Obama is but the latest skirmish in a war that dates back to the time of Christ. At issue: What is Christian truth? Does the true Christian put social peace ahead of his duty to make God’s Law man’s law?

In a speech in June 2006, Obama, citing the Book of Leviticus, which declares homosexuality an abomination, noted that Leviticus also says the eating of shellfish is an abomination and condones slavery.

Moreover, Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount is “a passage so radical that it’s doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application.”

“Folks haven’t been reading their Bibles,” said Obama.

“Even … if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States … whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson’s or with Al Sharpton’s?”

Barack was saying that, since Christians disagree deeply over what is biblical truth, why fight? Let us “try to translate some of our concerns in a universal language so that we can have an open and vigorous debate rather than have religion divide us.”

In Catholicism, this is the heresy of indifferentism, which holds that one religion is just as good as another and all religions can be a path to salvation. The Pew poll out last week reveals that 82 percent of Protestants believe there are multiple paths to salvation, as do 79 percent of Catholics and 57 percent of evangelicals.

A striking development. For did not Christ say, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”?

Dr. Dobson is having none of it. Tuesday, he accused Obama of “deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology.”

“(H)e is dragging biblical understanding through the gutter,” said Dobson. “Am I required in a democracy to conform my efforts in the political arena to his bloody notion of what is right with regard to the life of tiny babies?”

“What he (Obama) is saying here is that unless everyone agrees, we have no right to fight for what we believe.”

Dobson has no small point. For in his litany of moral heroes, Barack himself selected no “can’t-we-all-just-get-along?” Christians.

Indeed, Obama celebrates the Underground Railroad and the abolitionists who, to end slavery, took us over the brink into Civil War. He invokes the defiant marchers of Selma Bridge and Dr. King, who chose confrontation and tore the nation asunder rather than see segregation endure.

Obama, however, is now preaching a kumbaya Christianity where leaders who believe abortion is the killing of the innocent unborn are to set their convictions and cause aside in the name of ecumenical amity.

It is Dobson who, in his intolerance of perceived evil, seems in the tradition of the abolitionists, and Barack who appears more like the milquetoast believers of whom Christ said he would spit them out of his mouth because they were neither hot nor cold and whom Dante consigned to the deepest reaches of hell.

Does social peace require the toleration of manifest evil?

In the Roman Empire before Constantine, Christians accepted martyrdom rather than burn incense to Caesar. Thomas More went to his death rather than assent to the divorce of the Henry VIII, declaring, “I am the King’s good servant, but God’s first.”

A disciple of Gandhi, Dr. King is celebrated as a champion of civil disobedience against the injustice of segregation. What would Obama say to massive civil disobedience by those who believe the killing of 50 million unborn children since Roe v. Wade is a greater evil than segregating folks by race in public accommodations?

Would an Obama, who hails the abolitionists and Dr. King, condemn them as divisive? Was not that the charge thrown up at Dr. King?

The divide between Dobson and Barack is mirrored among many who profess the Christian faith. It split the Baptists. It is splitting the Episcopalians. A traditionalist minority has severed communion over female bishops and homosexual marriages.

Barack has a “fruitcake interpretation” of the Constitution if he thinks it requires us to give up fighting for justice because it may be divisive, says Dobson. Here, too, he has a point.

The unbridgeable divide between the two portends a troubled future. Can Americans ever come together if we are divided in our deepest beliefs about morality and truth, where one side believes gay marriage is moral progress, the other holds it a moral outrage; where one side views abortion to be a mighty advance for women’s freedom, the other sees it as legalization of mass slaughter of unborn babies?

There can be no peaceful coexistence in a cultural war because it is at root a religious war. Far into the future, Americans seem fated to face each other again and again “at some disputed barricade.”
 
206Perm Dude
ID: 296439
Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 20:41
Martin Luther King, Jr. was labeled as divisive only by those who simply wanted him to stop rocking the boat. "Letter from Birmingham Jail" spells this out quite well. King was inclusive and non-violent.

On the point of abortion, the Democrats have a history of working to reduce abortions.
 
207Boldwin
ID: 3363215
Thu, Jul 03, 2008, 22:07
Democrats have a history of working to reduce abortions. - PD

If so it's an unsuccessful one.

They are the only ones voting for it. How hard could it be? Just stop supporting it.
 
208Perm Dude
ID: 296439
Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 01:40
Look it up. The number of abortions drop during Democratic Administrations. They rise during Republican ones.

The GOP has been pathetically inept at reducing the number of abortions under their watch, mostly because they've gone on for more than 3 decades on a single policy of packing the Court in order to overrule Roe v Wade.
 
209J-Bar
ID: 12629220
Fri, Jul 04, 2008, 11:31
For the man that always wants citations, it seems you are not doing your due diligence on this one. Before responding you may want to look at the footnotes. link
 
210Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 17:46
Fred Thompson Drops An Atom Bomb On Obama

There has been a lot of talk about the need for change in this country. That is Senator Obama’s mantra, of course. And all of the commentators say, “It is a change election.” Well, I can understand why the call for change is so powerful considering the pitiful condition that our country is in.

We simply have the most prosperous, freest and strongest country in the history of the world. So we can understand why liberal politicians and their supporters see the need for great change.

On a more serious note, we have long recognized the role change plays in lives. Edmund Burke wrote extensively about it in the 18th century. He said that change was inevitable and when properly guided, change was a process of renewal. But it was his opinion that the man who loves change is disqualified from being a reformer because of his lust … to be the agent of change.

Remind you of anybody you know?


During his brief time in the U.S. Senate, the Senator strongly opposed the nomination of Justice Roberts and Justice Alito. And without a doubt – despite what he may say – he would continue to follow the agenda of those who have enabled his meteoric rise: MoveOn.org, the NEA, NARAL, and the remnants of the 1960s radical left that failed then, but sees the opportunity for one last gasp.

I highlight our courts because, second only to national security, the shaping of the federal judiciary is the most significant legacy that the next president is likely to leave—especially these days with such an evenly divided court.

The Court is important. But I want to get back to where we started … our principles. And there is no more important principle than the defense of liberty… and of life. And here, too, Senator Obama has been an agent of change in the wrong direction.

For example, in 2002 a federal law, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act was signed by President Bush. This act protected babies that survived late-term abortions. Only 15 members of the US House opposed it, and it passed the US Senate unanimously. Even NARAL did not oppose it.

That same year as an Illinois legislator, Senator Obama voted against similar legislation that would have given these babies life-saving medical attention.

I trust that he is explaining how it is that he is to the left of NARAL on this issue during the “religious outreach” meetings he’s been holding of late.

The fact is that at a time when the Supreme Court is in the balance, and America is facing unprecedented national security threats … at a time when rogue nations have or are developing nuclear capabilities … at a time when Russia is increasingly belligerent and China is engaged in a rapid military build-up, the Democratic Party has nominated for president one of the most inexperienced and the most liberal members of the United States Senate. Think George McGovern … without the experience.
 
211Perm Dude
ID: 163516
Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 19:55
LOL! A bomb? From Fred Thompson? On abortion?

The title makes it sound like there is some kind of surprise there.

 
212bibA
ID: 245423018
Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 19:58
Well, I guess it's all over now.....wrapped up.
 
213Tree
ID: 261031
Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 23:49
and if by "atom bomb" you mean "a load of meaningless crap", you are 100 percent in the right.

lol.

the column itself was kind of silly, but the context you tried to place it in made it laugh out loud worthy...
 
214Boldwin
ID: 386359
Sat, Jul 05, 2008, 23:51
Now Tree is the judge of what is silly.

You would think it takes one to know one, but he can't even get that right.
 
215Boxman
ID: 337352111
Wed, Jul 09, 2008, 13:34
Bowyer: The Coming Obama Recession

I don’t think that the current Dow bear market was caused by last August’s credit crunch. Nor do I believe it’s being caused by a recession that is allegedly starting right now (having failed to appear in the first or second quarter). Stocks are forward looking; when they drop now, it means investors are worried about things that are coming later – 6 to 9 months later. In other words, they’re worried about Obama.

And why shouldn’t they be. He’s promised to erase Bush’s investor tax cuts. That means a hike in the tax rates for dividends and capital gains. This means very large additional levies directly on investors. Of course this affects stock prices. It is ludicrous to suggest that adding a tax directly on an asset class would have no effect on the value assigned to that asset. Add to that harrowing scenario our already high levels of inflation, which the tax code treats as a gain, even though it isn’t one, and we’re getting to some very high tax rates on capital. This is happening just as most of the developed world has been cutting its cost of capital.

The political class is shifting left. We’re likely to get Obama and Nancy and Harry running the most advanced economy in the world next year. The investor class doesn’t like what it sees coming. That’s why it is scaling back. Capital is going on strike, and we won’t come back to the table until we see that we have a chance to a fair deal.
 
216walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Jul 09, 2008, 14:43
Bowyer is wrong. The recession is certainly at least partially about the continuing credit crunch ... and the market has finally, belatedly caught up with the realities of the economy. The market was artificially inflated for quite some time. Bowyer's prediction that the markets will fall due to Obama's policies could be accurate, but have little to do with a recession. The rise and fall of the markets is not the best indicator of a recession. The "investor class" does not define whether we are in a recession or not.

Dimon Says Credit Crisis Could Worsen

This guys knows a tad more (than a chief economist at a small firm)...(however, I no longer work for his company).
 
217bibA
ID: 27620715
Wed, Jul 09, 2008, 17:12
Yada yada yada....."the current bear market is Obama's fault."

Rush blames him for the rising cost of gasoline. Hannity blames him for a decline in the morals of our youth. Dobson blames him for distorting the bible. Lord knows how many things Ann Coulter can find to blame on him. I'm sure there is an open minded right winger blaming him for Iran's missle tests as we post.

Dude isn't even president, and he can be blamed for most every evil in the world. I just wonder why he hasn't brought Osama bin laden to justice.....oh yeah, they are co-conspirators.
 
218biliruben
ID: 52561217
Wed, Jul 09, 2008, 18:11
You forgot AIDS. Obama's definitely responsible for at least one fatal disease. Oh yeah, and world hunger (well that might have a grain of truth).
 
219Razor
ID: 55612620
Wed, Jul 09, 2008, 20:08
Does ol' boy Bowyer have some stats to go along with that graph? It's very tough to find any meaningful correlation from that graph.
 
220walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Jul 10, 2008, 08:31
NYT, Gail Collins: The Audacity of Listening

Well reasoned. I love that one, Obama is "antidumb."
 
221Boxman
ID: 571114225
Thu, Jul 10, 2008, 19:22
Pat Buchanan's column was interesting today.

PJB: Don’t Misunderestimate Obama
posted by Linda
by Patrick J. Buchanan


With 68 percent of Americans believing George Bush has done a poor job, and 82 percent saying the country is on the wrong track, the election of 2008 will turn on one issue: Barack Obama.

If Sen. Obama can convince the people he is “one of us,” and not some snooty radical liberal from Chicago’s Hyde Park, who looks down upon white America as a fever swamp of racism and reaction, a la the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the senator will be the next president.

The election of 2008 thus mirrors the election of 1980.

Then, the country wanted Jimmy Carter gone. Americans had had enough of 21 percent interest rates, 13 percent inflation and 7 percent unemployment. They wanted the Iranian hostage crisis ended, violently if necessary. After the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, America wanted a leader who would not kiss Leonid Brezhnev on the cheek but reassert American power.

The issue then was Ronald Reagan. Portrayed as some Al Capp cartoon of a crazed right-winger and B-Grade Hollywood actor given to spouting Reader’s Digest bromides, Reagan was regarded as ridiculous by much of the media and too big a risk by much of the nation.

In one debate with Carter, Reagan erased the misperceptions and turned a close race into a cakewalk. That is Barack’s opportunity.

A savvy politician, he has measured correctly the hurdle he must surmount and is moving expeditiously to alter an image of him forged by his own past associations and policy positions. In three weeks, he has jettisoned his new politics in a stunning display of raw pragmatism.

A prime minister must be “a good butcher,” H.H. Asquith told Winston Churchill on naming him First Lord of the Admiralty, “and there are several who need to be pole-axed now.” Four years later, Asquith would pole-axe Churchill over the Dardanelles disaster.

Obama is not lacking in this capacity that Richard Nixon, too, felt was an indispensable attribute of a statesman.

Samantha Power was tossed off Barack’s sledge after calling Hillary a “monster” and suggesting Barack’s Iraq timetable was not set in concrete. Robert Malley was canned for having talked to Hamas, though that was his portfolio at a think tank for conflict resolution.

Barack pole-axed pastor Wright and, though he said he could no more repudiate his church than his family, shortly after the second time Wright went off, Barack severed all ties to Trinity United.

Barack has spoken of how he cringed at the racist reaction of his white grandmother after she was accosted by a black man on a bus. Grandma has now been rehabilitated in a new ad as the loving woman who inculcated good old Kansas values into little Barack.

When his own surrogate, Gen. Wesley Clark, suggested John McCain’s war service did not automatically qualify him as presidential timber, a storm erupted. Barack proceeded to cut the general’s legs off.

His had been one of a few Senate voices to speak of Palestinian suffering. But Barack’s address to the Israeli lobby read like it was plagiarized from the collected works of Ze’ev Jabotinsky.

When the Supreme Court declared every citizen has a Second Amendment right to a handgun, Barack stood with Justice Scalia. When Scalia said the court ought not to have taken away Louisiana’s right to execute child rapists, Barack was with him again.

When Congress voted the telecoms immunity from prosecution for colluding with the Bush administration in wiretapping citizens, Barack stood with Bush and the telecoms. Fearing it might cost him his huge money-raising advantage over McCain, Barack tossed campaign finance reform over the side.

In Ohio, Barack was a populist opponent of NAFTA. He is now a free-trader. Yet when economic adviser Austan Goolsbee told the Canadians pretty much the same thing, Barack disinherited him.

As July 4 approached, Barack gratuitously dissed his friends at MoveOn.org for their “General Betray Us” ad mocking Gen. David Petraeus. And that flag pin Barack got rid of after 9-11, calling it a “substitute … for real patriotism”? It’s back on the lapel.

Last week, Barack said that, after he meets with Petraeus and his field commanders in Iraq, he might “refine” his commitment to withdraw all U.S. combat brigades within 16 months.

And finally, Obama has co-opted President Bush’s faith-based initiative and claimed it as his own.

What is Obama up to? Having secured the nomination, he is moving to convince the nation he is neither a black militant nor a radical, but a man of the center who will even listen to the right.

Though infuriating to readers of The Huffington Post, this may save Barack. For in Middle America folks worry less about politicians adjusting positions than about True Believers willing to go over the cliff with flags flying — and taking us with them.

Reagan was no Barry Goldwater. He knew when to “hold ‘em,” and he knew when to “fold ‘em.” Yet, America still knew who Reagan was.

We may be misunderestimating Barack. But the question of 2008 remains: When all is said and done, who is this guy?
 
222Tree
ID: 366341019
Thu, Jul 10, 2008, 20:41
oddly, i literally just had that EXACT conversation with my parents 10 minutes ago...
 
223Boxman
ID: 571114225
Thu, Jul 10, 2008, 21:17
With you as Pat Buchanan?
 
225Wilmer McLean
ID: 416241018
Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 02:33
Obama : "...You need to make sure your child can speak Spanish."

 
226Tree
ID: 49623115
Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 06:38
don't know the context of that statement, but i don't have a problem with it.

it certainly can't hurt to be bi-lingual, be it english and spanish, english and japanese, english and chinese, or english and whatever.

i grew up in Texas, not exactly the most liberal of states. in 4th grade, which mind you was nearly 30 years ago, and Spanish was a required class for me.

The feeling was that this latino population in Texas was already large, and would continue to grow, so learning a language that many of the residents speak would ultimately HELP things, not hurt things.

the fear of things foreign in this country is amazing.
 
227Perm Dude
ID: 2767118
Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 09:18
I'm not seeing anything in #225 except Wilmer's statement. Is there a video or something that should be there?
 
228Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 11:13
yea. it's an embedded youtube video.

this link MIGHT work...
 
229Perm Dude
ID: 2767118
Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 11:17
That worked. I don't see the context either--the video cuts off right after the statement.
 
230Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 12:59
the entire segment of the speech apparently was as such:

I don’t understand when people are going around worrying about we need to have English-only. They want to pass a law, we want just … we want English-only.

Now I agree that immigrants should learn English. I agree with that. But … understand this: Instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English—they’ll learn English—you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish. You should be thinking about how can your child become bilingual? We should have every child speaking more than one language

You know, it’s embarrassing … when Europeans come over here, they all speak English, they speak French, they speak German. And then we go over to Europe, and all we can say is “Merci beaucoup.” Right?


seems a REALLY valid point that in this global economy, speaking more than one language is wise, and that's what Obama is saying, despite the smear tactics of those who are scared of him.
 
231Madman
ID: 7538321
Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 23:38
Speaking Spanish won't improve our global competitiveness. Obama doesn't speak Spanish, is he handicapped in today's society? The real advantage of learning a second language isn't so you can get a job in international business. It's so that you can learn the structure of language, allowing you to become a more effectiveness communicator.

............

As we see Obama vocally defend Bush policies (even if that's not how he describes them), some are beginning to wonder why conservatives don't embrace Obama. For example, VDH ...

Put me in the suspicious camp. I don't really believe that Obama wants to roll back Doe v. Bolton. Or extend the majority of the Bush tax cuts. Or turn Bush's Iraq policy into a success by changing his campaign promise. Or extend faith-based programs (even if he only wants to do so on the condition that we increase the bureaucratic red tape).

But he is putting the first year of his administration in a rather tight political fix. It will be really interesting to see how he wiggles out of this "extend the Bush tax cuts for all earning under $250k" sort of rhetoric ... it's easy enough now to vote to increase everyone's taxes and then promise if elected President, he wouldn't allow the Senate to do what he's voted for it to do. As President, however, he can't hide behind that sort of ambiguity.
 
232Wilmer McLean
ID: 206311119
Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 01:56
Both candidates have flip-flopped, this is one example.

Obama and FISA (No Obama filibuster):

 
233Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 05:57
As we see Obama vocally defend Bush policies (even if that's not how he describes them), some are beginning to wonder why conservatives don't embrace Obama.

As a response to that blanket statement, the answer is because Bush is not a conservative.
 
234Madman
ID: 7538321
Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 13:07

As a response to that blanket statement, the answer is because Bush is not a conservative.


Ha! Yeah, I thought about that ...
 
235bibA
ID: 27620715
Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 13:21
He may not be "conservative" in your eyes, but I would wager that 95% of Americans who would describe themselves as conservative are very fond of Bush, and believe in him and the choices he has made.
 
236Seattle Zen
ID: 29241823
Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 13:28
Speaking Spanish won't improve our global competitiveness.

Pretty dodgy statement that I disagree with.

There are more Spanish speakers in the world than English.

Are you implying that Spanish speakers don't have anything to trade with us?

I might agree with "Speaking Hiligaynon will not improve our global competitiveness" but you are simply wrong to claim the same for Spanish.
 
237Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:15
Madman: Ha! Yeah, I thought about that ...

Yeah I figured. You're too smart to have posted something like that. :)

biba:He may not be "conservative" in your eyes, but I would wager that 95% of Americans who would describe themselves as conservative are very fond of Bush, and believe in him and the choices he has made.

Not just me big guy. One of the contributing factors to the Democrat route during the mid terms was W's lack of conservatism along with Congress.

I would wager that 95% of Americans who would describe themselves as conservative are very fond of Bush, and believe in him and the choices he has made.

Given public opinion polls I'll take that wager.
 
238Madman
ID: 7538321
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 10:12
Box -- No, your comment is quite legitimate. I just wasn't sure it reinforced the point I was trying to make ... I was concerned that it would tend to limit the degree of Obama-Bush agreement that appears to exist, at least in rhetoric. Specifically, Obama and Bush agree on things I wouldn't consider to be "conservative" -- unfunded expansion of Medicare, expansion of federal intervention in education (No Child Left Behind, the Ted Kennedy bill), etc. -- but they also agree on things that I *do* consider conservative -- the extension of the majority of Bush tax cuts, for example. (caveat: again, here I'm talking about Obama's rhetoric which stands 100% in conflict with his voting record, so we can't be sure who's he's trying to dupe here -- those listening to his speeches, or those watching where he's voted).

In fact, if it wasn't for the huge Democratic majority in Congress, I really wouldn't mind electing an articulate, intelligent, ambitious egomaniac who's willing to sell out any principle to maintain a broad base of popularity. That's a good recipe for limiting the scope of government. That is also arguably preferable to someone like Bush who was willing to go with his gut on significant issues of change, letting academics later sort out what went on and why.

The problem, however, is the Democratic Congress. This last Congress has been the worst governing body I can ever recall ... and Democratic gains will tend to reinforce some of the idiocy, IMO. I'm not convinced that Obama will stare down his own party ...

The only good news is that the Democrats in Congress, especially in the next Congress, are going to be more ideologically fractured than is commonly appreciated. Just compare the Durbin/Lincoln SHOP bill approach to healthcare reform versus Conyer's. That's an idelogical bridge that's almost impossible to cross without a strong partisan leader elected with a strong issue-oriented mandate. And, for the reasons I just mentioned, I have some confidence that Obama won't be that sort of leader and he won't be elected with that sort of mandate. His mandate will be himself.
 
239walk
ID: 566471020
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 13:24
There are policies, and there are personalities and there are techniques. Even if Obama and Bush agreed on every policy, I would think that from what I have seen, they are still very different in HOW they lead (not what they (propose to) lead). Of course, this truly remains to be seen with Obama.
 
240Madman
ID: 7538321
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 13:47
Even if Obama and Bush agreed on every policy, I would think that from what I have seen, they are still very different in HOW they lead (not what they (propose to) lead).

Agreed. Obama seems to want to make Bush's policies more workable. I guess I had misunderstood Democratic criticisms of Bush as being substantive rather than methodological.
 
241Boldwin
ID: 406201020
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 14:27
The most fitting word is oportunistic.
 
242Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 14:40
When Obama moves to agree with Bush's policies he is seeking to placate neo-conservatives (He may have to beat the war drum harder to convince that crowd.) and the conservatives who agree with W for some reason. This could lower voter turnout for McCain who really needs it considering my belief that the Evangelical base won't have W level turnout for him.

Obama knows his people will turn out to vote in droves (I'm still impressed by the one speech outside that drew 75,000 people.) and he has states in play that otherwise would not be "Dem Country". By an attempted pacification of segments of the right, Obama helps himself to win some swing states and lower turnout in other conservative fortresses causing the McCain campaign to spend time and resources just merely shoring up their base when they should really be focusing on the indepenents, women and Reagan Democrats.
 
243Boldwin
ID: 406201020
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 14:50
I wonder if the musical group The Decembrists favored the crowd with their rendition of the Soviet National Anthem as they are wont to do.
 
244Perm Dude
ID: 39632128
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 15:07
The criticisms about Obama are coming from all sorts of originating points. It is a mistake to try to lump them together, Madman.
 
245walk
ID: 566471020
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 15:40
Yeah, Madman, very cynical (and cute with the substantive vs. methodological comment). I think Obama is moving to the middle to win the election, but will likely be a more mainstream Dem if elected. I also think that he's willing to listen to both sides of the aisle more often, and more nicely, than what we have seen in the last 8 years. A lot more. I think it's McCain and the lack of MSM scutiny on him (whatsoever) who is more likely to manage from a far position.
 
246Perm Dude
ID: 39632128
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 19:39
Republicans are still trying to figure out Obama, I think. They know they don't like him, but the rest is still a work-in-progress.

Like Clinton (who was a lot more conservative than they ever give him credit), I suspect a lot of forthcoming Obama criticism will revolve around strawmen.

That all said, I agree with Madman that the problem for Obama will be the Democratic Congress. I think "fractured" is far too strong of a word to use, but there are a number of entrenched interests there who simply can't wait to do to Republicans exactly what Republicans did to Democrats.
 
247walk
ID: 566471020
Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 20:55
And I hope Obama does not cave into them, PD. I hope Obama practices what he has been preaching about more bipartisan stuff and a new form of politics. This is the bar he has created.
 
248walk
ID: 566471020
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 06:09
NYT: Barack Obama, My Plan for Iraq

Obama's guest editorial in today's NY Times.
 
249Wilmer McLean
ID: 28691320
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 06:30
"Ending the war" (Obama) vs. "Winning the war." (McCain)

-------------------------------------------------

Obama never mentioned winning in that editorial.

"...end it as preisdent."

"...I would give the military a new mission: ending this war."

"Ending the war is essential to meeting our broader strategic goals..."

"It’s time to end this war."

-------------------------------------------------

July 1, 2008 (McCain)
“I think there's no question,” said the Republican's likely presidential nominee. “I owe too much to these young people who are serving there to let political considerations interfere with what I know is right.

“I believe the American people, over time, will side with me, but if they don't I'll accept that,” he said. “I'd much rather lose a political campaign than lose a war.” - John McCain
 
250Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 07:34
[Now let's observe the liberal apologistas here post with "What Obama meant to say..."]

Shhhh! Let's see if they do it.
 
251Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 09:38
Boxman - what is the objective of this war?

wasn't it to remove Saddam from power? if so, we've already won, and now need to end it.
 
252Perm Dude
ID: 39632128
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 09:56
Don't ask that, tree. The objective changes every time you ask. "Benchmarks" be damned. You know that Republicans are desperate to claim a "win" and will change the rules to fit it.

The difference between the two is that Obama wants to bring the troops home within 16 months. McCain wants to "win" and then stay there in multiple permanent bases.

This is what will make McCain lose the election. The American people want out of Iraq.
 
253WiddleAvi
ID: 33618149
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:22
I thought the goal of the war was to get rid of WMD. Or to paraphrase Bush 'If the goal is to have no suicide attacks then we will never have that'.
 
254Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:24
"It’s time to end this war."

It is unfortunate that Obama chose those words. He should have said,

"It's time to end this military occupation."

Meanwhile, a real war in Afghanistan against an organized and determined opponent continues to escalate as the situation deteriorates.
 
255walk
ID: 566471020
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 14:01
Exactly, what PV said. It is ridiculous to think this IS a war, and that this occupation is "winnable." This is not a baseball game or a war against Japan or Germany back in the 1940s. And THAT is why Obama did not say "win," nor did he mean to say "win," nor should he have said "win." It's time to end the occupation. That is accurate. Some folks I guess just can't stand "losing." Get over it.
 
256boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 14:57
Boxman - what is the objective of this war?

wasn't it to remove Saddam from power? if so, we've already won, and now need to end it.


the problem is goals of wars are always changing, i guess it would have been best if after the battle of yorktown for each of the states to go their own way. but you might be right it might be time to walk out, let them either find there own peace or kill themselves in the process.
 
257biliruben
ID: 52561217
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 15:00
I declare we win by forfeit. Now let's get while the gettin's good.
 
258walk
ID: 566471020
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 16:04
I think Bush and his crew would say that we have to stay in Iraq to finish the job we started, due to a moral obligation. That is fair. However, we are not executing that moral obligation correctly. And, I don't think Bush and crew are staying in Iraq for moral reasons, but instead, to save face cos of their stupid decision to go there in the first place. The surge, combined with Iraqi's being fed up with militants exploiting the situation and major ethnic cleansing has reduced violence, proportionally.

If we REALLY want to get out of there properly, we need to beg for the help of other nations to supply supplies, aid, and security for the long haul. I don't think we have the credibility to do that. There's still a huge humanitarian crisis in Iraq, kidnappings, bombings, only 4 hours of electricity per day in Baghdad, millions homeless, hundreds of thousands if not millions of refugees in neighboring countries, secterian violence (although down), and attacks on American soldiers (although down). The surge has helped reduce violence, but the country is a huge humanitarian disaster. We don't get that kinda coverage in the MSM ("Look how we truly royally screwed over these people"). I don't know how we can stay or how we can leave effectively -- it's a lose-lose situation. The only solution has been rose-colored glasses.
 
259boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 16:12
I don't think anyone is comeing to help us out of this credibility or not. what sane country wants to sent there people in there after watching what happened to ours. I don't think any population would support that.
 
260Perm Dude
ID: 39632128
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 16:25
I agree. There's no one who feels they need to step into the breach made possible by our own incompetence.

Sadly, our own bumbling in Iraq makes it less likely that intervention will be done in the future where it might actually be needed (you know, in places where it would be backed up by the facts).
 
261Boldwin
ID: 406201020
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:00
The most competent force in the world was facing certain quagmire and another VN according to you lefties both in Afghanistan and Iraq. Since it wasn't how are they bumbling?

This is the most shameless oportunism. If there had been one USA casualty the left would have turned America's distaste for any war into proof positive a debacle had taken place.
 
262Boldwin
ID: 406201020
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:07
In Clinton's war Wesley Clarke issued an order his British counterpart refused to carry out, saying 'I'm not going to start WWIII'.

But now Wesley Clarke is the 'military expert' you guys and your candidates turn to for advice and Bush and his generals are bumbling. *roll*
 
263Perm Dude
ID: 39632128
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:08
Nonsense. You intentionally confuse strategy with policy. The most competent force will fail virtually any large scale mission with insufficient troops, changing goals, and poor leadership.

As I recall, it was the Right, in no strong terms, who set a baseline of zero American casualties during Clinton's terms. Now that it has come back to bite you somehow it has become a Democratic "opportunism."

Americans realize that the Administration dropped the ball, and we are only where we are because of our amazing military. We have had some success despite piss-poor leaders.

As Obama puts it, once a guy drives the bus into the ditch, how much credit to you give the driver for putting a board under the tire?
 
264Boxman
ID: 211139621
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:18
In Clinton's war Wesley Clarke issued an order his British counterpart refused to carry out, saying 'I'm not going to start WWIII'.

Wesley Clarke's ordering to engage Russian troops in Kosovo would have done just that.

As I recall, it was the Right, in no strong terms, who set a baseline of zero American casualties during Clinton's terms. Now that it has come back to bite you somehow it has become a Democratic "opportunism."

Two completely different types of military engagements. One an air campaign with the world's greatest Air Force against Kosovo and the other a full blown invasion.
 
265Perm Dude
ID: 39632128
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:27
Two completely different types of military engagements

I agree. One had competence top to bottom. The other didn't.

It simply isn't the case, as Baldwin asserts, that there is any kind of "opportunism" going on. Americans have endured, with great patience, the debacle in Iraq, and they are tired of it.
 
266walk
ID: 566471020
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:38
"Opportunism"...? C'mon. And yes, two entirely different militar engagements...once planned and meeting the needs and the other unplanned and not meeting the needs. Whatever you choose, you do it right (and that does not factor in the "they should not have chosen Iraq in the first place!!!").
 
267Tree
ID: 466331418
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:44
Obama tells NAACP blacks must take responsibility

*THIS* is important stuff. not whatever silliness that Boxman and Baldwin want to continue to drag into irrelevancies.

here is the democratic presidential candidate - the first black man (or woman) to be the nominee for one of the mainstream parties - and he is telling his base to get off their asses, and do something. to be better parents. hell, to PARENT, and not leave the kids to some electronic babysitter.

this in itself is different. not for Obama, who has spoken these words before, but in the sense that he is basically calling out his base to be more responsible, and to be better people.

this is the reason why i supposrt Obama. because i truly believe he is about change - even as he drifts toward the center for the general election - he brings a breath of fresh air to washington that we haven't seen before.
 
268biliruben
ID: 52561217
Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 12:42




 
269biliruben
ID: 52561217
Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 12:44
The lefty cartoonists are divided!
 
270Perm Dude
ID: 386551611
Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 12:56
Humorless Obama?
 
271Wilmer McLean
ID: 466171717
Fri, Jul 18, 2008, 04:10
Conditions on the Ground or Politics?




 
272Perm Dude
ID: 2625247
Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 09:18
I don't think Obama's being against the surge is going to hurt him (although McCain seems to be hanging his entire campaign on this point). People don't care about the surge--they care about the war. And the more the surge is successful, the more Obama's 16-month timetable looks workable.

So the more McCain is right about the surge, the more Obama is right about the withdrawal.

Meanwhile, I hear blowhards like Dobbs state that "how can Obama be against the surge in Iraq but call for a surge in Afghanistan?" People like that don't have a clue as to what the surge was, what it did, and how it accomplished its goals. It shouldn't be a surprise that these people don't have the ability to apply the lessons of the surge, then.

Conspiracy theorists in full-on mode, still, about Obama's citizenship. After seemingly disproving their own theory..
 
273Boxman
ID: 337352111
Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 09:36
Until the mindset of the Joint Chiefs is replaced I don't want any troops in Afghanistan let alone a surge. Their half assed approach (if you can even call it that) will only get our troops killed and accomplish nothing that even resembles the publicly stated reasons for going there in the first place.

Now, if Obama or McCain make changes to the mindset, I'm all ears about a surge in Afghanistan.
 
274Perm Dude
ID: 2625247
Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 09:59
I believe that people are still for a War on Terror, but they are going to demand a much more focused and goal-oriented approach. This Administration has, essentially, thrown away the goodwill of the American people, who will want to see real results (such as actually capturing Bin Laden).

I would, however, be careful to put blame where it belongs: On the Adminsitration itself. The Joint Chiefs are saddled with planning and carrying out objectives dictated to them by the Commander in Chief, using men and materials provided to them. They are, in fact, just the second-highest ranking deliberative body for military policy (the NSC is #1). And the chain of command runs from the CIC to SecDef through the JCS.

Also, the Chair and Vice-Chair are appointed by the President.

The military was given a mushy assignement they shouldn't have had to do, with a shortage of men to accomplish it, and changing objectives as the original reasons for going to war were found to be hollow and thus, for political cover, the objectives changed.
 
275Boxman
ID: 337352111
Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 10:31
I believe that people are still for a War on Terror, but they are going to demand a much more focused and goal-oriented approach. This Administration has, essentially, thrown away the goodwill of the American people, who will want to see real results (such as actually capturing Bin Laden).

I agree with you. I wish our gov't would actually fight one instead of allowing ulterior motives to be primary ones.

I would, however, be careful to put blame where it belongs: On the Adminsitration itself.

Fret not, I blame them too and have in other posts. I still won't stop pointing the finger at the Joint Chiefs though.

The military was given a mushy assignement they shouldn't have had to do, with a shortage of men to accomplish it, and changing objectives as the original reasons for going to war were found to be hollow and thus, for political cover, the objectives changed.

I think adequate troops in Afghanistan were initially alloted. The gov't change their tone and focused on Karzai and did not look at the Taliban, Bin Laden or Zawahiri (our real reason for going to war).
 
276Perm Dude
ID: 2625247
Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 15:52
Administration bars Foreign Service workers from attending Berlin speech by Obama.

Perhaps the Administration figures that they will be too busy making McCain buttons to care...
 
277Texas Flood
ID: 2660181
Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 16:00
Wow, I'm shocked. The administration which covets the Christian
conservatives preventing the minions a chance to view the true
Messiah. Sounds almost Hitleresque to me.

Now only the Germans can wash his feet;).
 
278bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 19:33
Mr. Flood - I don't really believe that anyone thinks Obama is the true Messiah, nor does the administration. The actual reason they bar Foreign Service workers from attending his speech is......er........because.......they uh.......
 
279boikin
ID: 532592112
Fri, Aug 01, 2008, 14:16
more gimmicks i guess McCain is not the only one who believes in "false fixes"
 
280Perm Dude
ID: 35712110
Fri, Aug 01, 2008, 14:22
Sound gimicky to me, too.
 
282Perm Dude
ID: 207349
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 14:56
It is almost eerie how the Republican slams against Obama mirror those of the Democrats against Reagan in the 1980 election. Amazing how completely the GOP has flipped-flopped on this. Given that their current criticism is not policy oriented, but is about "fitness" this video hits the bulls-eye:

 
283boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 15:37
I am not sure i like the new Obama everyday he becomes more and more pandering, now it's oil reserves and off shore drilling.
 
284Perm Dude
ID: 207349
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 15:46
That's called "compromise." As a Republican you might find the concept foreign, and strange.

"Pandering" isn't the same as compromise. Or even pragmatism. But "pandering" is often what people like to throw around when they agree with what someone is doing but they don't like the way it is being done. If you are shallow enough in your politics where pragmatic and bipartisan compromise toward problem-solving is an issue for you, I can see how Obama might seem like an odd choice for President.
 
285boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 16:10
well since in am not republican you must be talking to someone else. off shore drilling is not a compromise, it is pandering to people who think it will solve problems it will not fix, just as it was pandering when McCain suggested it.

"Breaking our oil addiction is one of the greatest challenges our generation will ever face," if you are serious about this you do not try and lower the cost of oil, if anything you increase the cost of oil.
 
286Perm Dude
ID: 207349
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 16:13
As anyone in the addiction field knows, cold turkey is only one of several options. So long as real money is being put into alternatives (particularly alternative energy distribution), this compromise can move this whole thing forward.

This certainly isn't "pandering." This is "compromise."
 
287boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 16:21
if you want money to go into real alternatives then you need to keep the price of oil high so there is a reason to invest in new alternatives. if you just lower the cost now you are only slowing the process. I do not even know how you can defend increased off shore drilling as a compromise. we all know that the effects of any increased off shore drilling would not be for years away. the best case senerio there is that he oil companies do not even bother drilling. where is the compromise please tell me? how is this "moving" things forward?

 
288Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 20:45
if you want money to go into real alternatives then you need to keep the price of oil high so there is a reason to invest in new alternatives.

That seems to be the Al Gore position, but his 10 year conversion plan is going to look too radical to the American public(and voter) and is juicy ammunition for Republicans, especially with Nancy Pelosi screaming, "I just want to save the planet!"

Obama's position is more measured and more palatable , and makes more sense.

Oil is not the future, but it is the present, and the present may extend 20, 30 even 50 years that we'll need a substantial amount of oil.

None of this has anything to do with the price of gas, which is never coming down, even if this country began drilling every inch of land realistically available. Well, it might come down a quarter for a few months or a year, but even that is a stretch.

Obama's position effectively counters a McCain advantage, and he did it by taking on Pelosi and Gore, a good sign for those who think he'll be a puppet for the liberal power structure.
 
289biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 00:00
No doubt. My friends' main worry about Obama is that he's far too centrist. They would have much preferred Edwards or Gore.

As long as he more liberal than Bill Clinton, I think he'll be a win, but any true progressive is going to be disappointed.
 
290boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 10:24
None of this has anything to do with the price of gas, which is never coming down, even if this country began drilling every inch of land realistically available. Well, it might come down a quarter for a few months or a year, but even that is a stretch. then why is he coming out and saying that the American public is hurting? I just think there is a bit of hypocrisy here about how people are viewing obama as compared to McCain when the both show that they are willing to "pander" to the general public who see's these ideas as quick fixes. And more to the point they are not even fixes at all...
 
291boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Aug 05, 2008, 16:25
i could have posted this either side, it looks like politics as usual. from both sides. It is good to know that ill be able to have my cake and eat it too once bush is replaced..
 
292Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 12:05
New election year- same old politicians. Nothing new here.

Democratic candidate Barack Obama criticized Republican John McCain on Tuesday for taking a page out of "the Cheney playbook" on energy, overlooking his own support of oil-friendly policies that the unpopular vice president helped to craft.

Vice President Dick Cheney, a former oilman, early in the Bush administration helped draft an energy policy that Obama asserted is biased in favor of tax breaks and favorable treatment for big oil. Obama's remarks were an attempt to capitalize on Cheney's unpopularity.

.....

However, Obama himself voted for a 2005 energy bill backed by Bush that included billions in subsidies for oil and natural gas production, a measure Cheney played a major role in developing. McCain opposed the bill on grounds it included billions in unnecessary tax breaks for the oil industry.

 
293Perm Dude
ID: 4574767
Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 12:27
Deja vu.

I don't know if this is really "politics as usual" though. Obama made clear that he was voting for the 2005 bill because of money included for alternative fuel development. A course of action that is right in line with the recent "Gang of Ten" compromise energy bill, which proposes a 20-year plan to phase out petroleum-based vehicles (an 85% goal), paying for it by eliminating those very taxes for oil companies that were included in the 2005 energy bill.

If you're going to point out that Obama voted for the 2005 bill in which Cheney proposed those additional tax breaks for oil companies, I think it should also be pointed out that the most recent reference by Obama to those subsidies and tax breaks is to wipe them out.
 
294Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 12:48
Kinda of a "i was for them before i was against them" thing. Talk about deja vu
 
295Perm Dude
ID: 4574767
Wed, Aug 06, 2008, 12:52
The "deja vu" was that your link and boikin's (the previous post) was for the same story. No biggie.

There's no evidence that Obama was for those tax breaks in the first place. Their inclusion in a huge compromise energy bill simply isn't enough to make the case.

There's plenty not to like about Obama (for example, his full-throated support for the wasteful, bloated, and counterproductive Farm Bill). But this particular attempt at "flip flopping" or "politics as usual" doesn't even rise to the level of tenuous.
 
296Perm Dude
ID: 20746619
Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 16:00
NYT: Obama's View on Abortion May Divide Catholics

I think this is an excellent piece with a title which doesn't match.
 
297Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 16:11
Republicans are gearing up campaigns to depict Mr. Obama as a radical on the question of abortion, because as a state senator in Illinois he opposed a ban on the killing of fetuses born alive.

I agree PD, their won't be much division over Obama among Catholics. He'll lose badly to McCain on this issue alone (unless, like me, they won't be voting for wither one)
 
298Perm Dude
ID: 20746619
Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 16:13
Yeah, the issue of abortion would unite Catholics, not divide them.
 
299biliruben
ID: 52561217
Thu, Aug 07, 2008, 18:33


For completeness.
 
300Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 03:28
No thread by this name would be complete without Obamafacts.
Obama can calculate your guilt just by looking at the numbers in your checkbook.

Every time Obama talks about change, a baby diaper becomes clean and a homeless person's cup fills up with nickels.

Obama always overpays his taxes because he believes that the government will find a better use for his money than he ever could.

When Obama rids the world of nuclear weapons, the red button in his office will control the thermostats in American homes

After a hearty meal Obama has been known to send off a tiny ripple of hope. This tiny ripple of hope in Chicago can cause change throughout the world.

US Mail Service published Obama's resume on a new first class stamp.

Obama can inflate a hot air balloon in one blow. He does it for the children.

When Obama fixes his gaze on the clouds, he is reading his next great line from the big teleprompter in the sky, which is unseen to ordinary humans.

Any sentence containing the name "Obama" and ending in a question mark has been determined to be racist. The only exceptions are rhetorical sentences such as "Is there any way that Obama could be more perfect?"

Obama smokes so you don't have to.

In Portland, Oregon, Obama fed a multitude of 75 thousand with five government subsidy forms and two rolls of red tape.

When Obama smiles, somewhere in America a door opens to an abortion clinic.




 
301biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 10:29
That's shrill, even for you, baldy.
 
302Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 12:07
Boldwin started an excellent list, I would just like to add more from that site.



Every now and then, Obama opens his eyes and the world springs into existence.

When a tree falls in the forest, Obama hears it.

Hillary Clinton dropped out of the race when she learned Obama's true name.

"Obama" is the very first word in the English language to be a verb, adjective, noun, pronoun, adverb, interjection, superlative and pronad. (Pronad is a new category made specifically for the word "Obama" so its power can be fully realized).

Every time Obama talks about change, a baby diaper becomes clean and a homeless person's cup fills up with nickels.

Every time Obama talks about "hope," coma patients regain consciousness and chant "We are the ones we've been waiting for."

Obama's famous stare once converted 15 Islamic fundamentalists into secular progressives, all of whom are currently employed by Countrywide Home Loans.

(And my favorite...)

More dead people voted for Obama than for any other Democrat candidate in the history of Chicago politics.
 
303sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 12:47
posts 300 and 302...contribute to any discussion, in just what way precisely? (Other than to illustrate the absurdity of the posters. Unless we are to extrapolate that absurdity and thus assign it to anything else they may have to say?)
 
304Tree
ID: 7728108
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 13:36
one of the reasons i think conservative and republicans hate Clinton is that he was, ultimately, good for this country.

i feel the season way about the irrational hatred and mockery of Obama. he will be good for this country, and those that oppose him are scared of that.

i also have zero problem saying that i think from a lot of those who identify as conservatives and republicans, racism - subtle or otherwise - plays a role.

a black man leading this nation - less than 50 years after many right wing icons had to eat (jim) crow and legally allow equality to blacks - scares the crap out of them.
 
305Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 14:50
posts 300 and 302...contribute to any discussion, in just what way precisely? (Other than to illustrate the absurdity of the posters. Unless we are to extrapolate that absurdity and thus assign it to anything else they may have to say?)

Coming from the king of trolls himself.

i also have zero problem saying that i think from a lot of those who identify as conservatives and republicans, racism - subtle or otherwise - plays a role....yack yack yack

Followed up by his Golem.

Yeah moron, people who don't like Obama are racists. That must be it. After all he is perfect isn't he.(?)
 
306sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 15:43
Box, you calling someone a troll, is the epitomy of the pot calling the kettle black. Then you on to refer to another poster as my Golem????

Just out of curiosity, how do you differentiate yourself from being Boldys Golem then? You know, you can call me troll all you like. I'd prefer to be such, than to be a blinded sanctimonious twit like yourself.
 
307Perm Dude
ID: 57191016
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 17:25
Reactive much, Boxman? bibi never called you racist. Never implied it. He called Baldwin's post "shrill."

But that's where you went, all on your own--acted like you were called a racist.

Personally, I thought Baldwin's post was a little childish and no more. Yours was the same, but you didn't notice that you re-posted one of the "jokes" on your own.
 
308Tree
ID: 7761017
Sun, Aug 10, 2008, 18:16
But that's where you went, all on your own--acted like you were called a racist.

PD - i said i felt that a lot those who spoke out against Obama, were doing so with some racism behind it - whether overt, or subtle. not all, but a lot.

Boxman did react strongly though, calling names and everything. then again, from the moment it became apparent Obama would be the democratic nominee, Boxman has been calling him names as well, so i'd expect nothing less.
 
309Boxman
ID: 571114225
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 08:20
A Catholic Case Against Barack

by Patrick J. Buchanan

In the Pennsylvania primary, Barack Obama rolled up more than 90 percent of the African-American vote. Among Catholics, he lost by 40 points. The cool liberal Harvard Law grad was not a good fit for the socially conservative ethnics of Altoona, Aliquippa and Johnstown.

But if Barack had a problem with Catholics then, he has a far higher hurdle to surmount in the fall, with those millions of Catholics who still take their faith and moral code seriously.

For not only is Barack the most pro-abortion member of the Senate, with his straight A+ report card from the National Abortion Rights Action League and Planned Parenthood. He supports the late-term procedure known as partial-birth abortion, where the baby’s skull is stabbed with scissors in the birth canal and the brains are sucked out to end its life swiftly and ease passage of the corpse into the pan.

Partial-birth abortion, said the late Sen. Pat Moynihan, “comes as close to infanticide as anything I have seen in our judiciary.”

Yet, when Congress was voting to ban this terrible form of death for a mature fetus, Michelle Obama was signing fundraising letters pledging that, if elected, Barack would be “tireless” in keeping legal this “legitimate medical procedure.”

And Barack did not let the militants down. When the Supreme Court upheld the congressional ban on this barbaric procedure, Barack denounced the court for denying “equal rights for women.”

As David Freddoso reports in his new best-seller, “The Case Against Barack Obama,” the Illinois senator goes further than any U.S. senator has dared go in defending what John Paul II called the “culture of death.”

Thrice in the Illinois legislature, Obama helped block a bill that was designed solely to protect the life of infants already born, and outside the womb, who had miraculously survived the attempt to kill them during an abortion. Thrice, Obama voted to let doctors and nurses allow these tiny human beings die of neglect and be tossed out with the medical waste.

How can a man who purports to be a Christian justify this?

If, as its advocates contend, abortion has to remain legal to protect the life and health, mental and physical, of the mother, how is a mother’s life or health in the least threatened by a baby no longer inside her — but lying on a table or in a pan fighting for life and breath?

How is it essential for the life or health of a woman that her baby, who somehow survived the horrible ordeal of abortion, be left to die or put to death? Yet, that is what Obama voted for, thrice, in the Illinois Senate.

When a bill almost identical to the one Barack fought in Illinois, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, came to the floor of the U.S. Senate in 2001, the vote was 98 to 0 in favor. Barbara Boxer, the most pro-abortion member of the Senate before Barack came, spoke out on its behalf:

“Of course, we believe everyone should deserve the protection of this bill. … Who could be more vulnerable than a newborn baby? So, of course, we agree with that. … We join with an ‘aye’ vote on this. I hope it will, in fact, be unanimous.”

Obama says he opposed the Born Alive Infants Protection Act because he feared it might imperil Roe v. Wade. But if Roe v. Wade did allow infanticide or murder, which is what letting a tiny baby die of neglect or killing it outright amounts to, why would he not want that court decision reviewed and amended to outlaw infanticide?

Is the right to an abortion so sacrosanct to Obama that killing by neglect or snuffing out of the life of tiny babies outside the womb must be protected if necessary to preserve that right?

Obama is an abortion absolutist. “I could find no instance in his entire career,” writes Freddoso, “in which he voted for any regulation or restriction on the practice of abortion.”

In 2007, Barack pledged that, in his first act as president, he will sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which would cancel every federal, state or local regulation or restriction on abortion. The National Organization for Women says it would abolish all restrictions on government funding of abortion.

What we once called God’s Country would become the nation on earth most zealously committed to an unrestricted right of abortion from conception to birth.

Before any devout Catholic, Evangelical Christian or Orthodox Jew votes for Obama, he or she might spend 15 minutes in Chapter 10 of Freddoso’s “Case Against Barack.” For if, as Catholics believe, abortion is the killing of an unborn child, and participation in an abortion entails automatic excommunication, how can a good Catholic support a candidate who will appoint justices to make Roe v. Wade eternal and eliminate all restrictions on a practice Catholics legislators have fought for three decades to curtail?

And which Catholic priests and prelates will it be who give invocations at Obama rallies, even as Mother Church fights to save the lives of unborn children whom Obama believes have no right to life and no rights at all?
 
310Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 09:10
PD 293 -- If you're going to point out that Obama voted for the 2005 bill in which Cheney proposed those additional tax breaks for oil companies, I think it should also be pointed out that the most recent reference by Obama to those subsidies and tax breaks is to wipe them out.

If you oppose something, there is something you can do: vote against it. You really don't have to vote for it before you vote against it. Honest.

With respect to alternative energy, there is [unfortunately] a ton of bipartisan support for those efforts. You don't need to vote for a bill that has tons of extra goup in it if you don't want to.
 
311Perm Dude
ID: 5975149
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 10:41
Actually, Madman, most legislation is like that--lots of stuff lumped together. Legislation by compromise makes these bills the usual way stuff gets done. There are very few single issue bills of any substance brought before the House.
 
312biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 11:31
Unless you want complete gridlock, where nothing passes except the "Free Crutches for Cripples" type legislation, you are going to have to vote for bills that you don't entirely agree with. That's the nature of Washington.

Now there are plenty of people that would like Congress to not to a dang thing, but I don't happen to be one of them. So I have to realize that these sorts of votes are a necessity.
 
313biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 12:25
Joe Klein, speaks out about the "put America First" smear campaign that McCain has endorsed.

This is their Swiftboat attempt, suggesting that Obama is loyal to Islamic connections, not America. This is the sort of thing McCain in the past would have denounced and distanced himself from in the past. Not this time. He knows smears and scare tactics are the only way to have a chance of beating Obama, since the issues won't cut it.
 
314Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 14:47
So I have to realize that these sorts of votes are a necessity.

Too bad we don't have a candidate who's promising to change Washington then, eh?
 
315Perm Dude
ID: 5975149
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 14:52
Misapplying his slogan won't help your cause, Madman. Neither will McCain's efforts to take a single point from a comprensive non-binding budget resolution of a couple of years ago, lie about what it actually was, and use that in lieu of what Obama's actual tax plan says.
 
316boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:00

Too bad we don't have a candidate who's promising to change Washington then, eh?

there is also a difference between promising and accomplishing
 
317biliruben
ID: 38751812
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:15
There's also a difference between what is possible as a freshman senator and what is possible as the President.

Sorry I had to state the obvious, but it appeared necessary for some reason.
 
318Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:29
PD 315 -- Not sure what McCain complaint you are referring to, but my beef is with SConRes70 voted on earlier this year. Like 98 other Senators, he did vote in favor of the Baucus amendment to exempt those currently on the 10% tax bracket from the tax hike ... but notably this means that he's going to raise taxes on all others, in violation of his tax plan and in violation of his rhetoric.

And this is a non-binding resolution, which makes the cave-in to the tax hikers even more inexplicable ... unless he actually agrees with them.

It is also fascinating to watch Obama try to argue that Bush tax policy should form the baseline for his administration. Of course, McCain and Obama agree on that whopper.
 
320Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:34
There's also a difference between what is possible as a freshman senator and what is possible as the President.

Yeah, as a Senator he could have actually voted against the measure. And as a Freshman Senator, he was facing a lot less attention and pressure than he will as President, meaning it would have been a lot easier to stand on principle.

I just don't buy the argument that Obama will miraculously come through when it matters, even though he hasn't come through when there hasn't been as much pressure on or when it's a non-binding resolution.
 
321biliruben
ID: 38751812
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:40
His general principles are to unite through compromise and working with everyone, across the aisle or no. Showing no ability to compromise as a junior Senator would have helped him in forwarding those principles how?

Maybe he'll work in a bi-partisan manner to get line-item veto power. That would do the trick, right?
 
322Perm Dude
ID: 5975149
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:42
my beef is with SConRes70 voted on earlier this year

Of course it is. My point is that you are talking about a resolution rather than actual legislation. And you appear to rather talk about non-legislation than his actual tax plan.

I think if you want to see what Obama plans to do, you need to look at his plans.
 
323Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 15:56
I think if you want to see what Obama plans to do, you need to look at his plans.

If you can definitely determine what his plans are, we can begin that discussion. Otherwise, I think the appropriate battleground is with the general thrust of his argument and how he's voted. SConRes70 was a non-binding statement about the future of US tax policy. He stood with his party, eschewing the tax plan he's argued for.

It is silly to examine a President's budget proposals in a vacuum. The House of Representatives controls the purse strings. A President is relevant only insofar as he can persuade the House to agree to his plans, or to the extent he's willing to wield the veto power. The main difference between Obama and McCain, therefore, is the way in which they will implement the Democrat's agenda. Obamas actions suggest he'll support that agenda and so far there's been no evidence that's he's able to persuade them to move to the right. McCain obviously won't support their agenda, giving us a divided government. Getting more technical than that runs the risk of serious miscalculation.
 
324Perm Dude
ID: 5975149
Thu, Aug 14, 2008, 16:27
The Tax Policy Center (pdf) has run preliminary analyses on both tax plans, among many others and some insightful and various news and blog posts here and there as well. The details you want to infer from resolutions are almost certainly found in the more detailed, actual, plans that are out there.

There are quite a few details still to come, and any analysis relies upon assumptions of all sorts. But I don't think you can throw your hands up that there are no plans at all.

You're right on the House holding the purse strings, and the real test will be whether Obama will be able to have his way in this area. Frankly, given how this Congress has rolled over for a Republican President for years, I don't think a Democratic President will has as difficult a time as you are painting.
 
325Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 12:00
PD -- like this one? post 565? I understand that Obama's claimed to have plan x, then y, then z. Given how quickly x morphs into y and then into z, I'm arguing that there's no real point trying to pin him down. He'll simply argue that you were wrong in your interpretation. Remember the games that the Obama camp played with the Tax Policy Center earlier this summer (see my post 4).

For whatever it is worth, Obama's "plan" changed again yesterday. For all practical purposes, he's chucked his SS tax plan entirely overboard (HOORAY!) and he's also limiting his CG plan. Updates can be found on the update section of the Tax Policy Plan that you linked to.

There are signs that Furman is reining in some of the idiocy Obama was spewing in the primaries. Hopefully it's more than campaign rhetoric, and hopefully Obama is willing to stick it to Congressional Dems who'll continue to balk.
 
326Perm Dude
ID: 2872159
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 13:22
Obama campaign derailed from sudden appearance of half-brother?
 
327Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 19:05
Nigeria has hillbillies?
 
328Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 19:24
Careful Boldwin, someone is about to call you a racist or a stereotyper. It's their only defense.

I can see the post from Tree now, "Not all hillbillies come from America you know."
 
329Tree
ID: 177211518
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 19:25
Nigeria has hillbillies?

that was pretty random. and actually, kinda racist.

nice job.
 
330Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 19:37
Well of course Nigeria has hillbillies. What was I thinking?

Carry on. Someone check if the Luo come from 'the hills'.
 
331sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 19:49
<---eagerly awaits ACs column quoting The Onion as her source.
 
332Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 20:27
I called it.
 
333Tree
ID: 177211518
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 21:04
Careful Boldwin, someone is about to call you a racist or a stereotyper. It's their only defense.

defense of what? what are we defending?

so Boxman, you tell me. what's Nigeria got to do with Obama? how is relevant, AT ALL?

 
334Boxman
ID: 571114225
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 21:42
OMG OMG OMG!!!!
 
335Tree
ID: 177211518
Fri, Aug 15, 2008, 23:05
yea, that's what i thought.
 
336Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 02:44
Boxman, you are really getting good at this. 8]
 
337Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 05:56
For a person who wants pot legalized and enjoys sodomy, Tree seems awfully uptight does he not? Does pot make you paranoid or irritable?
 
338Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 06:06
Boxman, you are really getting good at this. 8]

It's not me, it's them. Their response is easily predicted. The SOP for liberal defense is: racist, stereotyper, general hater (i.e. "You're a xenophobe/homophobe." or some sort of phobe), or chanting ("Bush lied, they died.").

Then they'll attack a conservative for having a homosexual affair even though they are the ones pushing the homosexual agenda. As if out of one side of their mouth homosexuality is something to be celebrated, but then if you're busted being a homo they'll put you through the wall.

And if you think they care that someone cheats on their wife and that's the reason for their outrage (not the homosexuality), I would refer you to Clinton, William Jefferson in the encyclopedia.
 
339Tree
ID: 51716169
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 10:23
The SOP for liberal defense is:

you can't have the defense, if you're not defended something. i simpyl inquired what the relation betweem Obama and Nigeria is.

again, i'll ask. what's the relation between Obama and Nigeria? (that's question 1. let's see if you can answer them all in one post)

keep in mind, in this situation YOU are the one being defensive.

Then they'll attack a conservative for having a homosexual affair even though they are the ones pushing the homosexual agenda.

not at all. the conservative isn't being attacked for having a homosexual affair. he's being attacked for his hypocrisy, because odds are good that conservative had come out against equality for homosexual.

question number two: please explain the "Homosexual agenda". i'm curious if it involves things like concentration camps for breeders.

And if you think they care that someone cheats on their wife and that's the reason for their outrage (not the homosexuality), I would refer you to Clinton, William Jefferson in the encyclopedia.

already refuted that. nice try there bub.

i do think the little in-the-closet winky wink between you and baldwin is quite cute.

For a person who wants pot legalized and enjoys sodomy, Tree seems awfully uptight does he not? Does pot make you paranoid or irritable?

cute, again. how much pot do you think i smoke? if i smoke more than a few hits of a joint a couple times a month, that's a lot for me.

and here's question three: you don't enjoy sodomy?

shame - you should try going down on your wife - she'll thank you for it. or maybe YOU might be less of a prick if you let her gobble yours now and then.
 
340sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 10:24
Boxman, you are really getting good at this. 8]

The right-wing version of patting the pet dog on their head?
 
341Tree
ID: 51716169
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 11:29
The right-wing version of patting the pet dog on their head?

actually, it's what the Gay Right Wing Self Loathing Agenda affectionately refers to as a "wide stance"...

 
342Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 21:36
Boxman

Note: They can always sink lower in your estimation.
 
343Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 22:39
Do you fraternize with Tree and Sarge, Boldwin? Are they this ignorant and a$$hole-like in your fantasy leagues?
 
344Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 03:33
Sarge is afraid to compete in anything but golf leagues, when it comes to fantasy sports at least. Tree beats down everyone's e-mail box with lopsided trade offers until PD gives in, so Tree has aquired some quite good teams. Tree actually researches heavily and uses pretty good judgement in fanatsy sports which comes as a complete shock since he exibits not a trace of those qualities on this board.

Very limited amount of social interaction there however. Yahoo provides oportunities to trash-talk and even encourages it but for the most part gurupies respect each other's sports accumen and keep the trash-talk accurate and to a minimum.

Somehow getting an offer of two non-keepers for one top twenty keeper and a lesser player is far less irritating than Tree's usual nonsense.
 
345Tree
ID: 397571710
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 12:01
like i said Boxman, you're avoiding the questions. says a lot right there about yourself, so i see no further need in trying to get an answer out of you.
 
346Perm Dude in ME
ID: 237251711
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 12:25
Still whining about my trades, Baldwin? Which one are you still complaining about now?

And what does that have to do with Nigeria?
 
347Tree
ID: 67581211
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 12:27
well Baldy, since your lapdog is ill-equipped to respond, i'm wondering if you will.

what does Obama have to do with Nigeria?
 
348Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 13:10
Tree

Oh not much, just 2.3 million google results worth.

Use your brain. Do some research. Then get back to the board when you have any business clicking the post button.
 
349Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 13:12
PD

What did you get for Reyes again?
 
350Tree
ID: 67581211
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 13:39
Oh not much, just 2.3 million google results worth.

actually, it's 1.93 million.

again - whats your point of the post above. i'm asking you a direct question - what are you trying to say with post 330, in regards to Obama and Nigeria.

Do some research. Then get back to the board when you have any business clicking the post button.

i did. i googled
baldwin dick...

THAT got 2.6 million hits, interestingly enough.

don't give me some google search, because that's not what you meant. If you believe something, have the balls to stand up for it - what was your implication with the Obama Nigeria comment?
 
351Boxman
ID: 337352111
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 14:50
Yawning at Tree The Troll.
 
352Tree
ID: 67581211
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 15:08
whatever Boxman. it's definitely Rovian of you to call someone a troll any time they ask a question, no matter how relative. i'd expect nothing else out of a sheep like you.

i'm curious as to why Baldwin posted making a relation between Obama and Nigeria.

he obviously can't really answer, which to me, is pretty suspect, and quite revealing. and your blind support of him on the same issue, is equally as revealing.
 
353Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 19:02
Hmmm...do I add that to my internet history? Lol! Nah.
 
354Seattle Zen
ID: 8748191
Sat, Aug 23, 2008, 00:59


Let the convention bounce begin!

I've heard the VP will be Joe Biden. That's great, I really wanted to lock Delaware up.
 
355Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Sat, Aug 23, 2008, 05:31
Solving the left's 'religion' problem with the electorate.
 
356Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Sat, Aug 23, 2008, 05:37
What's missing is a border of news faries surrounding that scene rapturously applauding.
 
357nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 07:43

Nigeria has hillbillies?

I believe his half brother lives in Kenya Baldy not Nigeria. Unless there's one I haven't heard about.

I'm still scratching my head why Tree would call the offhand comment Baldwin made about a sarcastic story PD linked to from the Onion "racist"

Oh, never mind, it was Tree.

 
358Tree
ID: 13714198
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 08:52
NC - to me, i took it as "what's one african nation from another? what's one black person from another?"

when simply asked an explanation, there was none forth coming. Boxman's immediate pavlovian response was nearly as suspect.
 
359Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 08:54
WLS radio asked it's listeners today, 'Why BO didn't pick Hillary'. Every other caller correctly raised the issue that he would have to fear for his life if he did.
 
360Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 08:56
And the hosts of the show weren't pulling for that response either. They were cutting those calls short and hadn't raised the issue before, hadn't primed the pump for that.
 
361hoops boy
ID: 327502510
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 11:55
Boldwin: I'd fear for my life too; the Clintons are known for offing people who stand in the way of thier political goals...
 
362bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 12:26
Then why is Obama still alive?
 
363Boxman
ID: 337352111
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 12:28
I'd fear for my life too; the Clintons are known for offing people who stand in the way of thier political goals...

Conspiratorial Thought Of The Day:

How "in" with the Clintons is Joe Biden?
 
364Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 13:45
Then why is Obama still alive? - bibA

Because sometimes things don't go off as planned.
 
365biliruben
ID: 38751812
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 13:48
I heard about that a few weeks ago on NPR. I was sure there was a Baldwin post forthcoming, but you disappointed me - til now!

Thanks, man.
 
366bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 14:46
One would think that victims who survive these attacks on their lives by the Clintons would be desirous of having them brought to justice.

Or, let me guess, could it be that all prosecutors are in the Clinton's pockets?
 
367Tree
ID: 13714198
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 14:50
Drumsticks can also be chicken!
 
368Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 17:42
bibA

The Clintons didn't fire every State's Attorney in the country as their first act in office for nothing.

Bili

You just missed the posts. They were there.
 
369Perm Dude
ID: 497322512
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 18:06
I think you mean ADA. And they didn't do anything Reagan, Bush, or any others did. It is typical to replace political appointees when a new Administration comes in.

What isn't typical is what you are trying to lay some relativistic cover for: Having a political litmus test for your own appointed ADA's unwillingness to overtly tilt their work toward political ends as a cause for their mass firing or forced resignations.

There is no precedent for Bush's firing of his own appointed attorneys in the middle of a term.
 
370bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 18:07
Ahh I see. So all prosecutors in the land who have been hired in the last 16 years (since the Clinton's fired every one in 1992) is what, afraid of them? In their pockets? Or possibly they only commit these serial homicides in jurisdictions which are within their fiefs?
 
371Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 18:26
is what, afraid of them?

Were hired by the criminals-in-chief. They made sure of that during their terms. When they weren't inputting illegal FBI files, having their enemies auditted, selling pardons, etc.
 
372Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 18:28
And to think that you guys are still having a cow when Bush fires only ten of them.
 
373bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 18:44
Obviously the ones hired by Bush during the past 8 years are also in the Clinton's realm, or we would have seen these killers brought to justice by now!

Or are they such master criminals that only you see through their crimes?
 
374Perm Dude
ID: 497322512
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 19:25
What Bush did was completely unprecedented and speaks to the politicalization of Justice. "Only ten" is another relativistic argument, like "I only raped three, officer!"

Everything starts turning relative when the GOP starts with their misconduct. I thought having Jesus in your life was supposed to make it less likely for you to excuse bad behavior. Guess not.
 
375biliruben
ID: 38751812
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 19:31
 
376Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 20:19
bibA

Presidents can get away with anything the media will let them get away with.

 
377bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Aug 25, 2008, 21:39
Who is the D.A. who posts here? Was it Myboyjack? Does he let murderers get away with their crimes based on the wishes of the media? Is every District Attorney's Office beholden to the media? This certainly will be news to the guys and gals I am associated with here in So Cal.
 
378biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 00:58
More Clinton operatives for you, Baldwin.

City and federal authorities said on Monday night that at least four people were under arrest on firearms and drug charges in connection with a suspected plot to shoot and kill Senator Barack Obama during his speech accepting the Democratic presidential nomination on Thursday night.
 
379biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 01:32
Michelle Obama speech


Now that is a fantastic speech.
 
380Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 06:35
I'm sorry, but this lady just comes off as an angry black woman who is one martini away from telling us how much she hates whitey. I hope I'm wrong because there's a good chance that she's the next first lady, but I just get that impression from her.
 
381Tree
ID: 15753265
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 06:55
you saw that speech and thought she came off as an "angry black woman"!?!?!?

how is that even possible?

what from that speech - where she praised her husband, her family, her upbringing, her political rivals, and her country - leads you to believe that she is "one martini away" from being an "angry black woman"?
 
382Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 07:04
you saw that speech and thought she came off as an "angry black woman"!?!?!?

I didn't say that. In the aggregate she comes off that way.
 
383Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 07:22
And you know, what struck me when I first met Barack was that even though he had this funny name,.....

They really gotta get past the self consciousness of his name. I don't see how his name is all that funny; either literally or figuratively. There's a news man in Chicago by the name of Dick Johnson, now that name is funny. Unless of course they keep playing the race card when they say "funny name".

It's the story of men and women gathered in churches and union halls and high school gyms -- people who stood up and marched and risked everything they had -- refusing to settle, determined to mold our future into the shape of our ideals.

It is because of their will and determination that this week, we celebrate two anniversaries: the 88th anniversary of women winning the right to vote, and the 45th anniversary of that hot summer day when Dr. King lifted our sights and our hearts with his dream for our nation.


I wonder if any of these moments made her proud to be an American.

All of us driven by a simple belief that the world as it is just won't do -- that we have an obligation to fight for the world as it should be.

Obama probably has to win the United States election before we put him in charge of the planet. Or, does she have a narrow worldview that conservatives get criticized for because we allegedly think the US is the world.

And that is the thread that connects our hearts. That is the thread that runs through my journey and Barack's journey and so many other improbable journeys that have brought us here tonight, where the current of history meets this new tide of hope.

That is why I love this country.


OK, so she loves us but wasn't necessarily proud? I'm confused.

And in my own life, in my own small way, I've tried to give back to this country that has given me so much. That's why I left a job at a law firm for a career in public service, working to empower young people to volunteer in their communities. Because I believe that each of us -- no matter what our age or background or walk of life -- each of us has something to contribute to the life of this nation.

Why would you give back to something you're not proud of?

See that's why he's running -- to end the war in Iraq responsibly, to build an economy that lifts every family, to make sure health care is available for every American, and to make sure every child in this nation has a world class education all the way from preschool to college. That's what Barack Obama will do as president of the United States of America.

Don't forget Kool-Aid in all the drinking fountains and nudey mags in every men's room.
 
384Tree
ID: 15753265
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 07:23
fine, so i'll ask you in the aggregate.

cite some examples. obviously, certain repeated behavioural traits she has shown time and time again lead you to believe this way, so i'm curious as to what they are.

out of additional curiousity, did you want the speech last night? and the unscripted "Ronnie" moment that followed?
 
385Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 07:56
cite some examples. obviously, certain repeated behavioural traits she has shown time and time again lead you to believe this way, so i'm curious as to what they are.

Her demeanor, intensity, background, church association and the "proud" comment all add up to someone who fits the description I laid out earlier.

It's pretty much why I think Hillary is one martini away from calling Obama an n-word.

Now, the demeanor and intensity thing can be good. It's not like I'm an anti-power-woman person who perceives any aggressive female to be a bitch.
 
386nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 08:13


biba I am not weighing in on this either way but based on your posts here are you 100% certain Lee Harvey Oswald was the only one who killed JFK?

And if not what happened to the prosecutors there?

Again I am not taking sides here just a question.


 
387Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 08:52
I don't see how his name is all that funny; either literally or figuratively.

not funny haha. funny as in peculiar. as in unusual. funny haha is Dick Trickle. funny unusual is Barack Obama - i don't know one other person named Barack.

I wonder if any of these moments made her proud to be an American.

she explained that comment. guess you missed it.

OK, so she loves us but wasn't necessarily proud? I'm confused.

don't be. i'm sure a number of people on this board - myself included - love this country, but aren't necessarily proud of our actions in recent years, most directly related to the actions in Iraq. it's not that confusing.

do you have children Boxman? let's say your kid, walks up to some other kid, and for no reason other than he wanted to, punches him in the face.

you still love your kid, but you're not exactly proud of him at that moment.

Her demeanor, intensity, background, church association and the "proud" comment all add up to someone who fits the description I laid out earlier.

it's hard to comment on this, because it's laughable and just doesn't make a lick of sense.

she's proud, she's intense, she's determined, she grew up on Chicago's south side and then went to Princeton *and* Harvard, an she goes to church, and that makes her one martini away from an "angry black woman"

that makes NO sense.
 
388biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 09:25
I think Boxman must assume that because she's smart, she's black and she's a woman in this country, she should be angry. And he's probably right, she should be angry. She somehow seems to have managed to have figured out how not to be, and it's got Boxman perplexed.
 
389Razor
ID: 545172413
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 09:26
It is telling that when you watch Michelle Obama speak, that the only take away you have is that she sounds like an "angry black woman." We're talking about a Harvard-educated lawyer here. I hope you have more than that ridiculously overblown "proud" comment.

I think Michelle Obama is the victim of more race-influenced backlash than Barack.
 
390Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 09:43
Swelling up his puny little chest, Obama said: - Ann Coulter

Curious Boxman's concern about Michelle Obama being an angry black woman when he is obviously enamored with angry white women.
 
391bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 13:06
Boxman - I found every single one of your responses in post 383 to be examples of how those on the right who will react negatively at any point made by the Obamas. Had any one of these statements you found so outrageous been made by Bush, will you not admit that you would not have been so offended?

nerve, re 386 - I am not 100% convinced either way as to whether Oswald acted alone. However, I find it pretty preposterous to believe that every prosecutor bases their decisions as to whether or not to prosecute individuals on what the Clintons desire, or on how the press will react. I have dealt with prosecutors for 30 years, and can confidently say that in my experience anyway, that this is not the case.
 
392Boxman
ID: 337352111
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 13:21
Had any one of these statements you found so outrageous been made by Bush, will you not admit that you would not have been so offended?

I wasn't aware that I put forth much if any time defending President Bush.

I am not 100% convinced either way as to whether Oswald acted alone.

Not a chance in hell, IMHO, that he did.
 
393Perm Dude
ID: 497322512
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 13:34
I wasn't aware that I put forth much if any time defending President Bush

You're far too busy trying to find something negative to say about the Obamas. Didn't your mother ever tell you: "If you can't say something nice, you'll sound like a real dick?"
 
394Boxman
ID: 337352111
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 13:36
you'll sound like a real dick

Don't you mean partisan dick?

 
395Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 13:37
Box - no response to the points in 387?
 
396Boxman
ID: 337352111
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 14:02
funny unusual is Barack Obama - i don't know one other person named Barack.

So what? His name is Barack Obama. We've heard it on a near constant pace since at least 2004 when he made his infamous speech. Anyone who still thinks its funny must be living under a rock. I don't know anyone else named Cher, but given that I've heard the name for God knows how long it's not funny.

love this country, but aren't necessarily proud of our actions in recent years, most directly related to the actions in Iraq. it's not that confusing.

That's not what she said. She said "first time I was proud to be an American". Totally different.

she's proud, she's intense, she's determined, she grew up on Chicago's south side and then went to Princeton *and* Harvard, an she goes to church

What kind of church? How would you characterize Wright's teachings?
 
397Razor
ID: 545172413
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 14:48
That's not what she said. She said "first time I was proud to be an American". Totally different.

I am fairly certain you don't know what she said because you wouldn't be harping on it because she clearly elucidated what she meant...like 1/2 a second later.

"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country … not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment."

How embarrassing!
 
398Perm Dude
ID: 497322512
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 15:49
Boxman's turned into a harpie for the Right. Seriously--this is just too bad. Obviously a smart guy who is reduced to MST 3000-type remarks about a speech by a remarkable woman which mostly points out just how conservative that family really is.

Is this a reflection of conservativism in general, which teaches that one's support for conservativism is reflected on how well one makes personal attacks? We need no better example of why the GOP will go down in flames in November than to look at Boxman's attempt to belittle Michelle Obama's speech through fake outrage, intentional "misunderstandings," and tiny frames of reference.

What Michelle Obama's speech did was remind people that the Democratic Party is the one best able to deal with the problems of those who did have power and money handed to them. It also reminds the PUMAs that women, in particular, have a place of standing in the Democratic Party that the Republicans simply cannot match yet.
 
399nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 16:42

Box this lady just comes off as an angry black woman who is one martini away from telling us how much she hates whitey.

Wow really? I'm not voting for Obama, (or McCain) and I thought the speech was just slightly above average. Let's say it looked like amateur acting but well written.

But angry? huh?

That I don't see at all. She kept talking about how America was the land of opportunity and really to me seemed trying really hard to seem main stream in terms of her America as a land of opportunity view. I didn't see any anger.

Are you sure you aren't "hoping" for anger?





 
400nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 16:45


Baldwin post 372

Are you really that naive and unsophisticated? Or are you playing dumb for sarcastic effect...seriously?

 
401Perm Dude
ID: 497322512
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 17:00
Madman: Long NYT article on Obama's economic policies and tendencies (the latter, IMO, more important than the former).

Andrew Sullivan pulled out a good money quote already:

As anyone who has spent time with Obama knows, he likes experts, and his choice of advisers stems in part from his interest in empirical research. (James Heckman, a Nobel laureate who critiqued the campaign’s education plan at Goolsbee’s request, said, “I’ve never worked with a campaign that was more interested in what the research shows.”) By surrounding himself with economists, however, Obama was also making a decision with ideological consequences. Far more than many other policy advisers, economists believe in the power of markets. What tends to distinguish Democratic economists is that they set out to uncover imperfections of the market and then come up with incremental, market-based solutions to these imperfections. This helps explain the Obama campaign’s interest in behavioral economics, a relatively new field that has pointed out many ways in which people make irrational, short-term decisions. To deal with one example of such myopia, Obama would require companies to automatically set aside a portion of their workers’ salary in a 401(k) plan. Any worker could override the decision — and save nothing at all or save even more — but the default would be to save.

 
402Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 17:07
Nerve#400

I absolutely think Clinton's actions were significantly more egregious than Bush's.

Not only because of the number. Firing them for political reasons is one thing. To fire them to avoid prosecution for your own ginormous list of scandals is monumentally worse.
 
403Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 17:20
To deal with one example of such myopia, Obama would require companies to automatically set aside a portion of their workers’ salary in a 401(k) plan. Any worker could override the decision — and save nothing at all or save even more — but the default would be to save.

Imagine the grins on the faces of people who love paperwork.....I can't wait to find out the many other plans Obama and his experts have to micromanage my life for me.
 
404nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 17:27


Baldwin I was referring to the fact that every President fires the DA's at the start of the term. The difference is that Bush fired his own appointees mid term because they wouldn't go after Bush requested political hit jobs.

Surely your not so cynical as to deny this? The Republican DA's who were fired have laid the case out pretty well.

Why am I explaining this? You know it's true. Hard to pin your charges on Clinton since it's standard procedure to fire the DA's at the start of every term, Bush Sr. did it. Reagan did it.

But you know all this.

 
405Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 17:33
But you know all this.

No, he doesn't. We all need to quit this eight year campaign to get Baldwin wake up and face reality.
 
406Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 17:41
No, I don't believe it is all that common, and every president doesn't come into office so desperately needing prosecutors to be in his hip pocket.

As for firing those appointees, I'm not so sure they shouldn't have been fired for failing to prosecute crimes, albeit crimes Bush wanted prosecuted. I know for a fact that Alberto Gonzalez should be in prison for thousands of years for failing to prosecute the sexual abuse in Texas orphanages by the power elite in Texas.

Bush didn't quite handle that one appropriately. I'll give you that.
 
407Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 18:19
Box this lady just comes off as an angry black woman who is one martini away from telling us how much she hates whitey.

Wow really? I'm not voting for Obama, (or McCain) and I thought the speech was just slightly above average. Let's say it looked like amateur acting but well written.

But angry? huh?

That I don't see at all. She kept talking about how America was the land of opportunity and really to me seemed trying really hard to seem main stream in terms of her America as a land of opportunity view. I didn't see any anger.

Are you sure you aren't "hoping" for anger?


Her anger is latent mostly but it's there. People don't have long term relationships with folks like Wright if they are hunky doory with things. Wright attracted a certain audience and the Obamas flocked to it like flies on s#it. If she were openly and outwardly angry all the time, would anyone other than the far left loons vote for Obama?
 
408Tree
ID: 267592617
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 19:01
Wright attracted a certain audience and the Obamas flocked to it like flies on s#it.

what certain audience? black people.

dude, his congregation is 10,000 strong. are you going to classify all those people under one broad sweeping generalization because of some of t...

oh. never mind. that's what you do.
 
409Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 19:42
dude, his congregation is 10,000 strong. are you going to classify all those people under one broad sweeping generalization because of some of t...

And what would you think of 10,000 crackers at a klan meeting?
 
410Tree
ID: 267592617
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 20:09
And what would you think of 10,000 crackers at a klan meeting?

so basically you're comparing Reverend Wright's Church to a KKK rally?

interesting...
 
411Perm Dude
ID: 317252618
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 20:13
Boxman is clueless on Black Liberation Theology, tree. For him it is just a bunch of angry blacks.
 
412Tree
ID: 267592617
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 21:36
actually, for him, i tend to think it's a bunch of uppity...well, you get the picture...
 
413Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 22:11
so basically you're comparing Reverend Wright's Church to a KKK rally?

No, he is pointing out that if you are talking about a group of 10,000 you don't have any problem lumping them all together when you find fault.

"You never know, there's 10,000 of them, maybe some of those crackers are ok guys, you can't just lump them together and label them all" - Tree

Yeah...he'd get all nonjudgemental and demand we not generalize.
 
414Tree
ID: 267592617
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 22:28
No, he is pointing out that if you are talking about a group of 10,000 you don't have any problem lumping them all together when you find fault.

by comparing a congregation of black church goers to a KKK rally...
 
415barilko6
ID: 52612922
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 23:20
Could be Trouble For Obama!
 
416Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Tue, Aug 26, 2008, 23:29
Why?
 
417nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 01:46


I never really figured out what was wrong with Wright. Most of the comments I saw quoted, I agreed with.

Obama just had to distance himself from the truth because there would be too many white boys that didn't like hearing it.

A lot of Wright's comments could have been written by MLK's speech writer's.

Box if Michelle is an "angry black woman", is it possible that at times you are an "angry white boy?" I sure am. Or are you just docile and passive?





 
418nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 02:07


O wait a minute. It's OK for a white man to be angry...it's not OK for a black woman.

Everyone knows a first lady has to be a docile simpleton doting on her husband with a Stepford wives look in her eyes (like most of the Republican wives.)

Anything beyond that is a threat to angry white men.

And to repeat, I'm not voting for Obama.



 
419Boxman
ID: 571114225
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 06:59
Boldwin: #413 is exactly correct.

Nerveclinic:Box if Michelle is an "angry black woman", is it possible that at times you are an "angry white boy?" I sure am. Or are you just docile and passive?

No. I haven't attended what essentially amounts to hate rallies for the past couple decades like the Obamas have.
 
420Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 07:42
I haven't attended what essentially amounts to hate rallies for the past couple decades like the Obamas have.

But you have posted what are essentially hate columns by Ann Coulter every week.
 
421Boxman
ID: 571114225
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 07:48
But you have posted what are essentially hate columns by Ann Coulter every week.

Hate towards whom with specific examples please. Since it's every week I would imagine this would be an easy find for you.
 
422Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 07:59
Extremely easy. See post #390 in this thread.

Now let's see your evidence that he Obamas have attented what are essentially hate rallies the pas couple decades.
 
423Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 09:39
Here is a list of soundbites attributed to Wright that Boxman equates to 20 years of essentially hate rallies:

** The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack.

** We've got a paranoid group of patriots in power.

** The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment and purposely infected African-American men with syphilis.

** Fighting for peace is like raping for virginity.

** We are doing the same thing that Al-Qaeda did with a different flag.

** Black men turning on black men- That is fighting the wrong enemy.

** We cannot see that what we are doing is the same thing that Al-Qaeda is doing under a different flag. If they can't find the weapons of mass destruction then they are going to do just like the LAPD and plant them some weapons of mass destruction.

** The stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back home to our own front yard.

** The government lied about the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color.


The bulk of these comments are directed at US foreign policy. Ironically, this story appeared in the morning news:

A United Nations human rights team has found “convincing evidence” that 90 civilians — among them 60 children — were killed in airstrikes on a village in western Afghanistan on Friday, according to the Unite Nations mission in Kabul.

If the assertion proves to be correct, this would almost certainly be the deadliest case of civilian casualties caused by any United States military operation in Afghanistan since 2001.


Is public opposition to these tactics tantamount to hate rallies, Boxman? Can we presume that if your neighborhood was bombed by a foreign military, resulting in the deaths of 60 children, your reaction would be positive, regardless of the intended target?
 
424Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 09:50
PV - i really don't think you're going to change the mind of some one who thinks an intelligent, articulate, extremely well-educated lawyer is "one martini away" from being "an angry black woman."

i mean, these are his words: "Her demeanor, intensity, background, church association and the "proud" comment all add up to someone" who is "one martini away" from being "an angry black woman."

it's almost mind boggling to imagine anyone thinking that without anything real to go on, but, for the past several years, we've seen these sorts of crazy leaps time and time again from people of Boxman's demeanor, intensity, background, and church association.
 
425Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 09:58
PD 401 -- Why does Obama seem stuck in 2005? Or is he proposing auto-enrollment in 401k's beyond the PPA of 2006? Like electronic processing of Medicare records, he just doesn't seem up on what the Bush administration has been doing ... google listings ... note also the complexity of implementing this, and the risks involved ...

Back to the NYT article, the abandonment of deficit reduction as a high priority, even if he had been President in 1993, reinforces his rejection of Clintonian economic policies. The article's comments about changing the tax code to *begin* to dampen the impact of increased income inequality is a bit bizarre, since this has been going on for years now ... see this data on tax shares by income quintile, for example ... link ... Obviously I think that this data undercuts the entire Obama narrative regarding the tax code and income inequality ... the tax code has reduced after-tax income inequality, and it is doing so more now than at anytime in the past 30 years ...

With respect to his perspective on the payroll tax, I simply disagree with the paradigm. In my view, the payroll tax is the obligation you pay for the benefit of Social Security. When and if you separate the tax from the benefits you undercut the entire nature of Social Security as you know it, risking the long-run demise of the entire system. Why Obama is pushing this narrative is hard for me to understand.

This is also a scary paragraph ... Warren, he’ll tell you his preference is not to meddle in the economy at all — let the market work, however way it’s going to work, and then just tax the heck out of people at the end and just redistribute it,” Obama said. “That way you’re not impeding efficiency, and you’re achieving equity on the back end.” He continued by saying that he thought there was some merit in Buffett’s argument. But, he said: “I do think that what the argument may miss is the sense of control that we want individuals to have in determining their own career paths, making their own life choices and so forth. And I also think you want to instill that sense of self-reliance and that what you do will help determine outcomes." Obama's criticism of Buffet here is at least a start, but it misses the bigger problem: the deadweight loss of taxation which rises with the square of the tax level. That's a direct impediment to the efficiency of the labor market. I'm not aware of any instance of a large income tax increase where subsequent tax revenues increased as expected due to behavioral responses. The more targeted the increase, the more leakage you are likely to have.

Can the tax code become even more progressive than it has under Bush? Sure. Will there be economic catastrophe under Obama's tax plans? I doubt it; we're a strong nation of entrepreneurs and work aholics. And in the bigger scheme of things, Obama's just tinkering on the margins with the tax code. His bigger desired shocks are in energy markets and healthcare delivery. But that doesn't mean that I think it's fair or wise to implement his tax code proposals.

The politics of envy and greed hold no sway over me. Tax up to 1/3 of anyone's income, and live within those means. Simple, fair, and livable.
 
426Perm Dude
ID: 49742278
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 09:58
While I disagree with your earlier "uppity" comment, tree, I think you're exactly right on the real disconnect on the Michelle Obama "angry black woman" comment. Perhaps this reflects their frustration at not getting some kind of wild-eyed crazy liberal to go up against. The Obama's family life, despite the harsh spotlight of public life, is kinda boring (and, dare I say it, conservative). It is the kind of black life conservatives have been pushing for blacks to embrace.

It is a little ironic that when this one family does embrace a conservative lifestyle and tries to run for higher office, they get called "angry" not because of anything they've actually done or said. It is just sad how far the GOP has fallen.

That this comment is coming from a supporter of McCain, known to fly off the handle, is a bit over the top. But that's all they have, it seems.
 
427Seattle Zen
ID: 8748191
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 11:13


Angry Muslims don't drink martinis... Haters prefer their political wives to either marry into money (Laura Bush) or come from money (Cindy McCain), not excel in school and earn the stuff. Just smile and stand there, dear.
 
428nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 15:03


Just smile and stand there, dear.

Just think Stepford wives.

Sorry but have you watched McCain's wife?

 
429Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 15:20
Yeah, we all get money tossed at us by the $100K for a board meeting here and there. Just how does she maintain her anger at this country?
 
430bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 18:21
Did you watch her speech? If that is your definition of anger, then maybe you are much jollier than one might predict based on most of your posts in this forum.
 
431Perm Dude
ID: 49742278
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 18:37
The whole money thing is a bit of a projection as well--McCain has how many houses? Same thing with the "celebrity" thing. McCain subsists on celebrity, as Baldwin has pointed out many times previous to McCain locking up the nomination.

And where's Baldwin's outrage at McCain's marrying into money?
 
432Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 19:31
I'm not outraged at either candidate's money but let's not pretend either leads the life of a typical housewife. That is just transparent convention stagecraft.
 
433biliruben
ID: 38751812
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 19:34
Typical housewife? Is there such a beast any more? I had thought republican economic policies had made it next to impossible to live on 1 income in this nation anymore.

Unless you're rich of course.
 
434Perm Dude
ID: 49742278
Wed, Aug 27, 2008, 19:51
No one is saying she is a "typical housewife" (whoever that is). Bili is right that 50's constructions like "housewife" have been pretty much wiped away in most households.

Disclaiming your first post here? How about #244 here?
 
435Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 00:38
PD

McCain and Obama aren't going to remind anyone else of Kerry marrying into money and being obscenely rich without earning it.
 
436Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 13:20
McCain and Obama aren't going to remind anyone else of Kerry marrying into money and being obscenely rich without earning it.

Waa? That's EXACTLY what McCain did. Are you even paying attention?
 
437Perm Dude
ID: 13747288
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 13:23
McCain was dating his present wife for a year while married to his last wife. He's never held a private sector job, and he's never made more than a tiny percentage of his wife's money.

Zen is right: Except for the cheating, McCain did exactly what brought your scorn upon Kerry.
 
438biliruben
ID: 38751812
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 18:04
I don't recall who asked what was so wrong about McCain running ads juxtaposing young white women with Barack, but I figured I'd share Charles Mudede's detailed, explicit (very explicit!) response, for those who may not have gotten a graphic enough response! ;)

These sexually ripe white women, these women that most white men could never hope to possess, they are helpless before this man. McCain seeks to translate Obama's hard-won political currency into the primal terms of unbridled, white-female lust for black c...
---

What it comes down to is this: The Democratic Party is the party of life and the Republican Party is the party of death. If you want war and wolves, turn to the Republican Party; if you want to improve the health-care system, turn to the Democratic Party. The Republican Party despises life and sex. It only cares about you if are unborn or brain-dead. A person who is alive, a person with a body that experiences desire, a person with a body that lusts after other bodies—that is a person who the GOP wants nothing to do with.
 
439Tree
ID: 57142820
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 21:16
man, the GOP so hates me. anyone else here read "The Ethical Slut"?

 
440J-Bar
ID: 127202713
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 22:13
so there's primal lusts that white women have for black c... or is this something that this worldly scholar has invented in his own mind. and again that is his warped interpretation of the ads follow it if you want. seems that the lust seems to be about black money, celebrity, or crack. but that is my opinion.
 
441Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 23:23
Republican Party despises life and sex

This from the pro-death abortion party. Somehow sex with your wife doesn't count when the libertine party is discussing sex.
 
442Madman
ID: 230542010
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 10:42
Hilarious Obama interview with Anderson Cooper last night transcript ...

COOPER: And, Senator Obama, my final question -- your -- some of your Republican critics have said you don't have the experience to handle a situation like this. They in fact have said that Governor Palin has more executive experience, as mayor of a small town and as governor of a big state of Alaska.

What's your response?

OBAMA: Well, you know, my understanding is, is that Governor Palin's town of Wasilla has, I think, 50 employees. We have got 2,500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe $12 million a year. You know, we have a budget of about three times that just for the month.

So, I think that our ability to manage large systems and to execute, I think, has been made clear over the last couple of years. And, certainly, in terms of the legislation that I passed just dealing with this issue post-Katrina of how we handle emergency management, the fact that many of my recommendations were adopted and are being put in place as we speak, I think, indicates the degree to which we can provide the kinds of support and good service that the American people expect.


Alaska's budget is in the tens of billions ... how big is his campaign again?

Funnier, however, is his claim that he's persuaded the Bush administration to follow "his" recommendations regarding emergency management. Barack Obama: is there anything that he cannot do?
 
443Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 11:37
Alaska's budget is in the tens of billions ... how big is his campaign again?

he was VERY specific in referring to the town in which she was mayor.

she's been governor for less than two years.
 
444Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 12:54
Obama's campaign spokesmen = Big Fat Liar

It's all politics - so no problem then. But every time I hear Obama pontificate about taking the high road and how this or that has no place in the presidential race I just about throw up i my mouth at the raving hypocrite.
 
445biliruben
ID: 38751812
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 13:20
Skimming the article, I'm not finding the puke-worthy comment.
 
446Perm Dude
ID: 13825212
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 13:25
The only quote from Obama in that article: In Michigan yesterday, Sen. Barack Obama told reporters: "How a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn't be the topic of our politics."

Perhaps there is another article you read in which he said something the opposite, MBJ? Everything I've seem matches the statement above.
 
447Perm Dude
ID: 13825212
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 13:29
Even Roy Blount, no friend of Obama by any stretch, calls Obama's response "perfect":



Ironically, by pointing out (correctly) that Obama is saying the right thing here, they help separate in the minds of people Obama from some of the lefties who continue to hammer on these stupid questions.

So long as her doctor says Palin's fine to go back to work, I'm not about to second guess here. Not an issue in my book.
 
448Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 13:53
RE: 444 & 445 - My bad - wrong link- that was just a digsuting article that focused on whether Palin was breastfeeding or not....and whether a breast-feeding mother should be running for VP....



This isn't the link I'd intended either but it covers the same ground - Obama campaign spokeman lying about Palin being a Nazi sympathizer
 
449Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:01
I don't think anyone would take issue with take issue on the Obama response to the sliming of Palin and her teenage daughter and newborn son - it was pointed and obviously from the heart of a father.

However, it easy to take the high road when you have Daily Kos and Andrew Sullivan doing all your dirty work for you. Sounds to me that Obama's going to need to throw them unde the bus, as well.
 
450Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:05
However, it easy to take the high road when you have Daily Kos and Andrew Sullivan doing all your dirty work for you. Sounds to me that Obama's going to need to throw them unde the bus, as well.

dude. they're bloggers. they don't work for Obama. he doesn't pay their salary.

has there been something i missed where he embraced them with a hug, and said "i love Kos and Sullivan! they speak for me! i respect their words!"
 
451Perm Dude
ID: 13825212
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:07
I agree--he'll have to be very strong in disassociating himself from the slimers (and that's what this is--slime).

I have no idea what compels people to go down those roads, but at the heart is the cynicism that Obama supposedly is out to fight. Even more than McCain, Obama has to police his campaign and start slapping back at the slimers.

From my perspective, it just seems so very stupid from simply a pragmatic standpoint: There's plenty not to like about Palin as VP, so there is no need to go into what are clearly private matters and decisions.
 
452Perm Dude
ID: 13825212
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:09
BTW, as a home office guy, I think this picture is pretty cool:

 
453Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:13
PD - I think 451 is spot on - Obama has set himself up to carry a heavier burden - his claim of representing a "new politics" and "hope" - which, as far as I can tell, is about 90% of his appeal - comes with the weight of not acquiescing to poltics as usual.

tree - he can't get his own spokesman to not lie about his opponent, so I agree there's little h can do with his limited executive experience to respond to the slime of his most vocal supporters.
 
454Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:26
I'm not sure why Obama & Co. have chosen to put so much focus on Palin, especially on her personal choices. She's just going to come out looking better and better to those she was meant to appeal to - conservatives and angry Hillary voters.

I'd have just asked: "Sarah WHo?", intentionally mispelled her name a few times, and got back on message
 
455biliruben
ID: 38751812
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:29
As far as I have read, she put on a Buchanan button when he came to her village out of respect for the visiting windbag. She claims it shouldn't be viewed as her supporting him, however. I guess I believe her, but she kinda set herself up by wearing the pin.
 
456biliruben
ID: 38751812
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:31
I think that's about right, MBJ.
 
457Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 14:59

tree - he can't get his own spokesman to not lie about his opponent, so I agree there's little h can do with his limited executive experience to respond to the slime of his most vocal supporters.


i'm just saying it's not his responsibility. i'm not saying they're doing the right thing, but i am saying that it's not Obama's responsibility to muzzle a bunch of bloggers.
 
458walk
ID: 181472714
Tue, Sep 02, 2008, 16:14
Right, I would also like to see the republicans disavow Coulter and Malkin and such, but they actually invite those guys to be speakers at their various conferences.

I think the bar is a bit higher for Obama for not stooping to low blows, but I also think he has met that test. I don't know if "Obama & Co" have focused so much on Palin. I think the press has, and has posed questions to Obama and Biden (such as Croft on 60 Minutes), and they are then put in a situation to respond. I also think that given that Obama was bashed for a year on his relative lack of experience (something he said on 60 Minutes he would use against himself if he were his own opposition -- he's schizo, you know...aaar aaar), the choice of Palin presents a valid opportunity for the Dems, including Obama, to say: "hey, wait a minute here, how does this decision jibe with the flak I've been taking about my relative inexperience."
 
459biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Wed, Sep 03, 2008, 09:21
Barack on O'Reilly tomorrow night. Hat tip Klieman.

As McCain wimps out on Larry King.

Excellent timing, imho.
 
460Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 19:17
Bill Ruckelshaus, a prominent local Republican who served in both the Nixon and Reagan administrations, announced Wednesday that he is supporting Democrat Barack Obama for president.

"I think he's what the country needs right now," Ruckelshaus said.
 
461Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Sep 04, 2008, 20:16
A while back I stated that one thing Obama would have to do to win m over is admit he was dead wrong about the troop surge in Iraq: I can check that off the list

As recently as July, the Democratic presidential candidate declined to rate the surge a success, but said it had helped reduce violence in the country. On Thursday, Obama acknowledged the 2007 increase in U.S. troops has benefited the Iraqi people.

“I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated,” Obama said while refusing to retract his initial opposition to the surge. “I’ve already said it’s succeeded beyond our wildest dreams.”


I'm guessing in being honest and disappointing Zen, he's likely handed McCain some great speech material. No doubt this is the kind of thing his handlers were fearing would come from his lack of expeiance - honesty

 
462biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 11:39
O. M. G.

The Real Obama is apparantly uppity.

Either you are with the racists or you are against them.
 
463Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 12:10
From bili's link in #462

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Nice grammar.

If I hear the word "elitist" abused one more time, I'm going postal on somebody, probably one of the two customers I'm having a problem collecting 3 grand from.
 
464Baldwin
ID: 24841319
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 12:12
George Will pointed out that he actually tried to include Gearge Bush in the group who didn't think it would work. A really specious way to avoid admitting you were wrong. "Everyone did it", so he must not have been any more wrong than anyone else.
 
465biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 12:52
If you put your chips on red-32 and it comes up red-32, was your buddy who was telling you you're an idiot wrong?
 
466Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 13:11
MBJ 461 -- I think you're misreading Obama's statement. He *explicitly* refused to say that he was wrong, let alone dead-wrong ... O'Reilly asked that question directly.
 
467Building 7
ID: 471052128
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 13:26
If you put your chips on red-32 and it comes up red-32, was your buddy who was telling you you're an idiot wrong?

37 out of 38 times on average your buddy is right. On this occasion, however, your buddy was wrong.
 
468Tree
ID: 13714198
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 13:35
462 - i've been saying for awhile now, that's how this is being handled by some on the right. uppity, indeed.
 
469biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 13:41
It's clearly not in the best interests of poor white voters to vote for McCain, so racial slurs, along with Jingoism and lies, are one of the few ways that they can cull those votes from the dem side.
 
470Baldwin
ID: 24841319
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 18:10
Bili

So you are saying it was a total unpredictable fluke that the surge worked? And that he was right to oppose it? If that is his point he should say so clearly and see if it holds up in the court of public opinion.
 
471biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 18:46
No, that's not what I'm saying, nor is it was Obama's saying.

To continue the analogy, it's more like this:

You want to expand your nest-egg for retirement. Do you invest in a broad spectrum of safe investments and grow your nest-egg over time, or do you go to Vegas and gamble it? Sure, your first play you might get lucky and hit red-32, but the odds are you are going to leave Nevada broke.

Similarly, sure, you can spin the wheel with the surge, exhausting your troops and their is a chance you will see some success, but what you really want is for the Iraqi's to take some responsibility for their own security. That's much harder work, but is more likely to lead to a long-term sustainable out come.
 
472Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 19:03
So you are saying it was a total unpredictable fluke that the surge worked?

Well you never hear anyone say,

"The incredible success of Al-Sadr's ceasefire"

or

"The incredible success of arming and paying local terrorists to fight foreign terrorists"

So, unless you predicted those two events in examining the part of the surge that has been successful - a reduction in overall violence, and then considered that these two events would have ocurred whether there was an influx of 30,000 more American troops or not, then there's really no way to realistically analyze if the surge was even successful, fluke or no fluke.

 
473Baldwin
ID: 24841319
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 21:36
You know the calculus sunni leaders used did not involve the surge, do you? I highly doubt that.
 
474Perm Dude
ID: 22824415
Fri, Sep 05, 2008, 21:39
Even Petraeus is careful about attributing the reduction of violence to just the surge

Bah--what does he know?
 
475Boldwin
ID: 33828610
Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 06:38
1) If you want to know the real Obama just read Saul Alinski. That is Obama's life-long guide.

2) If the right was doing this you'd be hearing the media nervously bringing up references to 'Hitler Youth' but since it's the Clintons and Obama doing it...
In the July 2 speech in Colorado Springs, Obama insisted the U.S. "cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set."

He continued, "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

 
476Boldwin
ID: 33828610
Mon, Sep 08, 2008, 06:45
Btw if you guys were pros at this like some of the lefties over at TableTalk you'd be badmouthing the assassination program which probably did as much as the surge to turn things around. No, I don't do your work for you. Look it up your own self.
 
477Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 21:00
Does Obama really think that demeaning Palin and using coded sexism is a good idea?


And that’s the choice you’ve got in this election.” Obama added that “it is not going to be easy … John McCain has a compelling biography, you know Sarah Palin is an interesting story.” The crowd booed. “No, she’s new!” Obama said. “She hasn’t been on the scene, you know, she’s got five kids and my hat goes off to anybody who’s looking after five. I’ve got two and they tire Michelle and me out!”

That's how he repeatedly is addressing the governor of Alaska - 'mother of five". I really think he trying to be cute, but my wife is not amused. Continuing this tack will mean 50% of Hillary voters will be supporting McCain by November.
 
478Tree
ID: 5287918
Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 21:26
MBJ - you're much smarter than that.

i just posted a very similar thing in the McCain camp. the link you used totally took the quote out of context.

for accuracy's sake, here's the real quote, and the context:

Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama told an audience Tuesday that GOP presidential nominee John McCain says he'll change Washington, but he's just like President Bush.

"You can put lipstick on a pig," he said to an outbreak of laughter, shouts and raucous applause from his audience, clearly drawing a connection to Palin's joke. "It's still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change. It's still going to stink after eight years."


somehow the mccain camp - and the idiots in the blogosphere, took that to mean he was calling Palin a pig...

that's absurd.
 
479Perm Dude
ID: 1821917
Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 22:39
So only Republicans (or Palin herself) can talk about her being a mother? Is this some kind of new PC speech code?
 
480katietx
ID: 201411622
Tue, Sep 09, 2008, 22:39
McCain's camp is using whatever they can to discredit Obama. What a stupid correlation.

I agree Tree...absurd.
 
481Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 03:32
No no, please, by all means remind Hillary supporters that we have a mother of five just like them attempting to 'break the highest glass ceiling'. Imply that they may not be able to do the job and raise a family at the same time. Imply that even tho they may be wearing lipstick, it's still possible that they may be pigs.

No one is trying to shut you up. No speech codes here. It's all good. Have some more rope.
 
482Tree
ID: 14840105
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 06:49
Baldwin - keep seeing what you want to see. no one on this board - absolutely no one - sees things that don't exist more than you, or, in lieu of that, completely makes them up.

nowhere, NOWHERE, did Obama call Palin, or, any woman, a pig.

but, as an agent of deception more than willing to lie and spread false rumours in an effort to discredit someone who you think is the enemy, you'll do whatever it takes, and have no problems with what you do.

your posts about god's kingdom are intentionally hysterical when compared to your posts where you're more than willing to lie.
 
483Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 06:57
We'll see how many people connect the lipstick comments. Sarah's and Obama's.

I am faaaar from the only one who doesn't think it's coincidence. Does he have a deniability factor built in? Of course he does.
 
484Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 07:04
You don't suppose Obama would be trying to defuse her best lines from the convention right after the convention do you? How unlikley, huh Tree?
 
485Tree
ID: 14840105
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 07:30
for once baldwin, you got things right...

post 484 is spot on. that's EXACTLY what he's trying to do. it's obviously a reference to what she said - and the Obama camp would have no problem acknowledging that.

but what it's not, is the sexist usage of the word "pig" that you, and the other character assassins on the Right, would have the world believe.
 
486tastethewaste
ID: 12847618
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 09:00
I really cant believe I wake up to find we are talking about lipstick on a pig. McCain said the same thing about Hillary in an October speech when asked a question. THE SAME EXACT THING.

In other news transvestite cops are also perturbed at Obama's rant. It's not just sexist, Obama hates cops! why else would he use the word pig. He couldve used any other barnyard animal.
 
487Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 09:11
Taste - that was my implication when i posed the article in the McCain thread.

the republicans would get rolled and smoked if they actually tried to talk about issues. so they will do anything they can over the next 2 months to avoid it, and the sheep will help bleat them into office, only to see the third Bush reign of terror continue to make America less safe, and cost more Americans their lives, all while further eroding our rights.
 
488Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 09:22
I never mentioned the piggy make-up thing - my beef is with Obama's consistent demeaning reference to Palin as "Sarah" instead of governor, describing her as a "mother of five" (hahaha, as if that's her only job. Women I know find it sexist and belittling. It's too consistent to be accidental. Just remember how much in denial you are about this - and maybe you won't be quite as surprised when Hillary women continue to turn to the McCain ticket.
 
489walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 09:26
NYT, Friedman: Obama has Gone from Cool to Cold

I agree, he needs to start being more assertive about how his policies and his change platform are more apt to be successful and change America then McCain/Palin.
 
490Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 09:30
Obama loved him some high food prices if he thinks he can trade them for votes
 
491Perm Dude
ID: 35855107
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 09:30
I hadn't noticed the first name only reference, MBJ. I'll have to start looking for it. I've noticed, like McCain, Obama doesn't give titles when referring to his opponent (It's almost always "John McCain" rather than "Senator McCain"). And I see in your last link that he refers to Palin as Sarah Palin (along with John McCain) without mentioning either of their job titles.
 
492tastethewaste
ID: 12847618
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 09:45
MBJ-huh?

your link goes to the piggy make up thing. You never mentioned that obama calls palin sarah. ANd your link shows Obama called her Sarah Palin (gasp).

You had a beef with mother of 5. Oh yeah, PD linked that palin goes around stumping calling herself (gasp) mother of 5. She goes around stumping that she is a hockey mom who wears lipstick.

I agree, thanks to the "liberal media" Obama is losing women votes because of this nonsense. Maybe if the "liberal media" discussed the actual issues instead of these sensationalistic blurbs of the day women up in the air would see more clearly. But what do I know, im not a woman.
 
493Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 10:04
my beef is with Obama's consistent demeaning reference to Palin as "Sarah" instead of governor, describing her as a "mother of five" (hahaha, as if that's her only job. Women I know find it sexist and belittling. It's too consistent to be accidental. Just remember how much in denial you are about this - and maybe you won't be quite as surprised when Hillary women continue to turn to the McCain ticket.

never mind that your link goes to the Palin-Pig non-issue, and you don't once mention the first name issue.

so, out of curiousity...

you're calling Obama out for referring to Sarah Palin as Sarah...yet, in the same post, you refer to Hillary Clinton as Hillary.

having said that, i've called people out before for referring to Hillary Clinton by her first name only. so i hear what you're saying, but in the post where you're critical, you're also hypocritical.

and she *is* a mother of five. it's a perfect accurate statement. the McCain camp refers to her by that term, yet the Obama camp can't? i mean, hell, her whole presentation at the RNC was the fact she was a woman with a large family, even including the father of her teenage daughter's child.

double standard again. then again, that's the popular tool of the right.
 
494Perm Dude
ID: 35855107
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 10:07
In MBJ's defense, he's not running for office. And if he did, he probably wouldn't refer to his opponent by her first name. At least, if she were a woman.

I'm not coming up with first name only references by Obama to either McCain or Palin. Anyone else?
 
495Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 10:44
My link goes to a statement made by Obama - you guys picked out the piggy comment, not me.

I focused on Obama's description of Palin.
 
496Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 11:24
MBJ - I focused on Obama's description of Palin...

and from your earlier post:
I never mentioned the piggy make-up thing - my beef is with Obama's consistent demeaning reference to Palin as "Sarah" instead of governor, describing her as a "mother of five"

there's the quote you linked to below. he never refers to Palin by only her first name, and if you're taking beef with "Sarah" instead of "Governor", why no beef with "John" instead of "Senator"?

and regarding her having five kids, he PRAISES her for raising them!

You know, you can put lipstick on a pig,” Obama said, “but it’s still a pig.” The crowd rose and applauded, some of them no doubt thinking he may have been alluding to Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin’s ad lib during her vice presidential nomination acceptance speech last week, “What’s the difference between a hockey mom and a pit bull? Lipstick.” “You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called ‘change,’” Obama continued, “it’s still gonna stink after eight years. “We’ve had enough of the same old thing! It’s time to bring about real change to Washington. And that’s the choice you’ve got in this election.” Obama added that “it is not going to be easy … John McCain has a compelling biography, you know Sarah Palin is an interesting story.” The crowd booed. “No, she’s new!” Obama said. “She hasn’t been on the scene, you know, she’s got five kids and my hat goes off to anybody who’s looking after five. I’ve got two and they tire Michelle and me out!”

still trying to see where you get sexism from that. it's grasping at straws, AT BEST.
 
497Perm Dude
ID: 35855107
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 11:31
I think we're seeing another faux outrage election. The GOP would lose this election on the issues, on their recent history, and with these candidates. So they need to make it about how bad the other side is, no matter how outrageous the claims.

Obama needs to stay focused. And his supporters so as well. As I've said before: There are plenty of reasons not to want Sarah Palin as the potential POTUS to make up reasons, stretch other reasons out of context, or to make this about outrage. Trust me: No moderate voter out there gives a crap about how outraged the Left is.

So what if Palin believes God should direct our foreign policy? Half the nation (or more) believes that God should be behind all our major decisions. The Left needs to stop marginalizing itself on this issue.
 
498Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 11:46
I think we're seeing another faux outrage election. The GOP would lose this election on the issues, on their recent history, and with these candidates. So they need to make it about how bad the other side is, no matter how outrageous the claims.

well, Obama's not gonna lay down and get Kerryed.

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Wednesday accused Republican John McCain's campaign of using "lies and phony outrage and Swift-boat politics" in claiming he used a sexist comment against vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin.
ADVERTISEMENT

Calling it "the latest made-up controversy by the John McCain campaign," Obama responded to the Republicans' charge that he was referring to Palin when he used the phrase "lipstick on a pig" at a campaign stop Tuesday.

"I don't care what they say about me. But I love this country too much to let them take over another election with lies and phony outrage and Swift-boat politics. Enough is enough," he said.
 
499Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 11:52
and who's supporting Obama on this one?

McCain ally Mike Huckabee took Obama's side on the issue, saying he didn't think it was a swipe at Palin.

"It's an old expression, and I'm going to have to cut Obama some slack on that one. I do not think he was referring to Sarah Palin; he didn't reference her. If you take the two sound bites together, it may sound like it," he said on Fox's "Hannity and Colmes."

 
500Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 12:21
I think we're seeing another faux outrage election

Let's get this straight. It's the Dems who are the drama queens of outrage.

People who understand exactly what Obama was doing aren't any different than the people who caught Obama flipping Hillary the bird.

It aint full tilt democrat drama queen outrage but by the same token don't expect us to not notice Obama being slick and exactly how he does it. He's all about demanding his opponents stay on a high plane while he's sublty flipping you off for all to see.
 
501Perm Dude
ID: 35855107
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 12:23
It is the GOP who are outraged right now, Baldwin. Outraged at Obama's "lipstick on a pig" comment? Gimme a break.

 
502Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 12:46
and those subtle flip offs? please show us some examples, and let them be real examples, not this silly lipstick on a pig stuff.
 
503Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 13:35
Outraged is Jeremiah Wright going off on America.

You don't really hear that kind of thing from the right. Just 'give me a break, you were definately connecting with and redirecting Palin's remark in the minds of the public. Don't bother telling me you weren't.'.
 
504Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 13:37
Tree

How could you forget?
 
505Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 13:51
Outraged is Jeremiah Wright going off on America.

yea? and? last i checked, Wright wasn't running for President.

as for Obama shooting the bird...lol. come on now, really? you honestly believe that was his intention. lol. for someone who looks for the most complex answer to anything, you'll settle for simple if it drags down someone you dislike.

then again, it doesn't matter. just another example of you and people like you not really caring about the issues - you'd rather debate a man scratching an itch than you would the real problems in this country.
 
506tastethewaste
ID: 12847618
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 13:55
so when mccain said the same exact comment regarding clinton it was ok, but since Palin used the word lipstick that same phrase is now patented by the GOP and from that day forward anyone who uses the word lipstick is being sexist.

Got it.
 
507Perm Dude
ID: 35855107
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 13:55
I don't see how Obama maybe flipping off Clinton in the primary proves Baldwin's point. No amount of Dem "drama queen" action, demonstrated or fictional, will either.
 
508Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 17:31
He didn't say it any old day. He said it the day 'lipstick wearing pitbull' was the [endearing] joke around the watercooler.

Someone check 'eatmycrap's ip address and see if that's really Tree.
 
509Tree
ID: 13714198
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 17:39
not sure what you're talking about Baldwin (post 506?), but taste has been posting on these boards for years.

i do love how you try to character assassinate Obama. he's appears to be a better man than you could ever even hope to aspire to be, so why not tear him down with lies?

it's what you and people like you do.
 
510Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 19:10
'Just scratching an itch'...lol! The OHB friendly crowd even caught it dude.
 
511Tree
ID: 268421018
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 19:45
bigger picture, totally missed by you again Baldwin.

come on - talk about the issues. does it REALLY matter whether or not Obama flipped the bird?

not one little bit.
 
512Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 21:33
Obviously calling someone a liar without basis means nothing to you and a great deal to me.
 
513Boldwin
ID: 34845818
Thu, Sep 11, 2008, 04:50
Stonewalling and evasion work better in the short term but there's hell to pay in the long run. - WSJ
Aides claim Mr. Obama "has taken voluntary transparency steps" that allow "his constituents, the media and his political opponents to fully examine him." In reality, anyone questioning the approved story line is liable to be ignored, misled or even bullied. This isn't what reporters expected when Mr. Obama began campaigning for a "new politics" that would bring honesty and openness to government.

Walking the rows of media outlets at the Denver convention, I had no trouble finding reporters who complained the campaign was secretive and evasive

[college records, medical records, Rezko, Nadhmi Auchi, William Ayers - B]

The Obama campaign didn't hesitate to criticize Hillary Clinton for not revealing the names of donors to the Clinton Library, or John McCain for releasing only two years of tax returns as opposed to Mr. Obama's 10 years. Those were proper questions. But so too are requests for information from Mr. Obama, a man whose sudden rise and incompletely reported past makes him among the least-vetted of presidential nominees.

Reporters who decline to press Mr. Obama for more information now, whether it be on William Ayers or the Rezko-Auchi partnership, may be repeating an old mistake. Most reporters failed to dig deep enough into the Nixon White House's handling of Watergate before the 1972 election. The country was soon consumed with that scandal. Most reporters pooh-poohed questionable Whitewater real-estate dealings of the Clintons before Bill Clinton's 1992 election. Within months of his inauguration a tangled controversy led to the appointment of a special prosecutor and an endless source of distraction for the Clinton White House.

All presidential candidates resist full examination of their records. But it should be the job of reporters not to accept noncooperation, stonewalling or intimidation when it comes to questions about fitness for the nation's highest office.
But the vetting of Sarah Palin was shockingly incomplete...*roll*.
 
515Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 21:36
Wow, when I posted the video of Biden telling the wheelchair bound man to "stand up and let everybody see ya'" the other day, I thought it was all in good fun.....

But you know Obama's new "get tough" attack ad mocking the fact that McCain doesn't use a computer has other send emails for him?

Guess why McCain doen't sit around the keyboard all night sending IMs and playing fantasy baseball


Good God, Man, who's running this campaign? Homer Simpson?

From NR:

The day after 9/11, as part of its "get tough" makeover, the Obama campaign is mocking John McCain for not using a computer, without caring why he doesn't use a computer. From the AP story about the computer illiterate ad:

"Our economy wouldn't survive without the Internet, and cyber-security continues to represent one our most serious national security threats," [Obama spokesman Dan] Pfeiffer said. "It's extraordinary that someone who wants to be our president and our commander in chief doesn't know how to send an e-mail."

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "extraordinary." The reason he doesn't send email is that he can't use a keyboard because of the relentless beatings he received from the Viet Cong in service to our country. From the Boston Globe (March 4, 2000):

McCain gets emotional at the mention of military families needing food stamps or veterans lacking health care. The outrage comes from inside: McCain's severe war injuries prevent him from combing his hair, typing on a keyboard, or tying his shoes. Friends marvel at McCain's encyclopedic knowledge of sports. He's an avid fan - Ted Williams is his hero - but he can't raise his arm above his shoulder to throw a baseball.

In a similar vein I guess it's an outrage that the blind governor of New York David Patterson doesn't know how to drive a car. After all, transportation issues are pretty important. How dare he serve as governor while being ignorant of what it's like to navigate New York's highways.



Making the whole thing even worse, is the fact that, despite the inabilty to spend long evening communicating via email (he has to have his wife respond to emails), anyone paying the least bit of attention knows that all the way back to the 2000 campaign, McCain has been on the cutting edge of using the internet.

Do I really remember Obama using the fact that he ran his campaign was a good measure of his executive experience?
 
516Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 21:41
Forbes artlicle (via Ace of Spades)

In certain ways, McCain was a natural Web candidate. Chairman of the Senate Telecommunications Subcommittee and regarded as the U.S. Senate's savviest technologist, McCain is an inveterate devotee of email. His nightly ritual is to read his email together with his wife, Cindy. The injuries he incurred as a Vietnam POW make it painful for McCain to type. Instead, he dictates responses that his wife types on a laptop. "She's a whiz on the keyboard, and I'm so laborious," McCain admits.

Note to Obama: GOOGLE
 
517walk
ID: 22854919
Fri, Sep 12, 2008, 23:10
Interesting. I thought McCain said he did not use a computer or know how to use a computer or something like that. I imagine that is what Obama's comments were based on, but maybe McCain was just being facetious.
 
518Perm Dude
ID: 25857128
Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 10:15
McCain has called himself computer "illiterate." I don't think we can blame his illiteracy entirely on his lack of typing stamina. And most computer browsing doesn't need a keyboard. His lack of familiarity may have been shaped by his diffulty typing for long periods of time (such as replying to emails would entail) but I suspect that he, and his supporters, are using that as an excuse for his widely known unfamiliarity with the computer at all.

Sarah Granger puts it well:

Whether McCain's physical limitations are part of what is keeping him from using computers remains to be seen, but if so, there are a lot of assistive devices out there for using computers for people who have injuries or disabilities: certain types of mice, voice activation software, special keyboards, keyboard usage training, etc. Still, training to use those kinds of devices can take time - something presidential candidates do not have at their disposal. With less than two months left in the campaign, there's definitely not enough time for a self-proclaimed computer illiterate to get up to snuff.
 
519Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 10:41
Really - that "puts it well"?

The ad is both false, when it implies that McCain, the Chairman of the Senate Telecommunications Committee" back when Obama was still in Springfield voting to allow doctors to kill live born children, is somehow unable to understand these nefangled computer things and "can't send an email" and egregiously low in mocking a man's disabilty.

It simultaneously sets the low bar (somehow getting underneath McCain's "sex ed" ad" for dishinesty and crudness. Congrats.

Surely, PD, you don't think that Obama knew of McCain's physical limitation and still ran this ad? I'd rather give him credit and just assume his campaign can't google.

 
520Perm Dude
ID: 25857128
Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 10:50
I don't know if Obama knew that McCain couldn't type for long periods of time. Neither do you.

What I do know is that the computer is more than replying to email. And that there are a number of ways to get on the Internet that doesn't involve a lot of typing.

What I think is that McCain doesn't believe it important enough to investigate ways to get himself online. And the claim that he is computer illiterate came from McCain himself. You can't put that back in the bottle simply because McCain can't get on the keyboard for long periods of time.

Yes, McCain can't reply to emails for a very long period of time. That's no excuse not to have some comuter familiarity. We need to stop excusing it.
 
521Seattle Zen
ID: 8748191
Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 11:05
Try as you might, you can't even begin to compare the Sex Ed ad with the computer illiterate ad, MBJ. The Sex Ed was pure fabrication. However, McCain is seriously out of touch and computer unsavy.

What a quaint picture, Cindy typing his e-mail at night over cocoa. We are electing the "Leader of Free World", not a member of the residence board of some Arizona assisted living community, which is just about the speed McCain is able to handle these days. Time to retire the old guy.
 
522Perm Dude
ID: 25857128
Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 11:09
I find it amazing that a man who was, for a time, chairman of the Senate Telecommunications Subcommittee, was and is a computer "illiterate" and apparently refused to take advantage of the many devices and software which would help him make better decisions as Chairman of that committee. You know, by being more informed of his subcommittee's area and all (let alone the rich information available on nearly all other topics on the internet).

I'm not convinced Obama knew McCain couldn't type for long periods of time (and your link in 516 makes it seem less and not more likely, that Obama would have known about it). I think if Obama thought about it at all, he assumed that McCain was using an alternative means of accessing the internet in order to keep up to speed with his own area.
 
523walk
ID: 22854919
Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 11:19
#521, LOL. Right, it's a matter of degree. While I am not an advocate of any level of distortion of misinformation in campaigning, the deceits are a matter of degree, and what we have seen lately from the McCain campaign has been far lower in form than from Obama. And he's running on "straight talk" and "integrity." Fcuk that shite. Liar.
 
524walk
ID: 22854919
Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 11:21
And the sex ed ad has presents an incredibly disturbing message about Obama, so let's be real here. What does that ad TRY to say about Obama vs. what Obama's computer literacy ad TRY to say about McCain? It's shameful, the sex ed ad. If I were like ref-ing this game, he'd be given a 10 minute unsportsmanlike misconduct for that one.
 
525Boldwin
ID: 58151319
Sun, Sep 14, 2008, 04:21
As I've stated before, Obama is not the antichrist, but those who think he is will get a charge out of this.
 
526Wilmer McLean
ID: 378501713
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 03:14
Obama Should Hold Tongue On Equal Pay - CBS News - National Review Online

"Now is the time to keep the promise of equal pay for an equal day’s work,” Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said August 28 in his convention acceptance speech. He told the crowd in Denver: “I want my daughters to have exactly the same opportunities as your sons.”

Obama’s campaign website is even more specific. Under the heading “Fighting for Pay Equity,” the women’s issues page laments that, “Despite decades of progress, women still make only 77 cents for every dollar a man makes. A recent study estimates it will take another 47 years for women to close the wage gap with men at Fortune 500 corporate offices. Barack Obama believes the government needs to take steps to better enforce the Equal Pay Act…”

Obama’s commitment to federally mandated pay equity stretches from the Rockies to Wall Street and beyond. And yet it seems to have eluded his United States Senate office. Compensation figures for his legislative staff reveal that Obama pays women just 83 cents for every dollar his men make.

A watchdog group called LegiStorm posts online the salaries for Capitol Hill staffers. “We have no political affiliations and no political purpose except to make the workings of Congress as transparent as possible,” its website explains. Parsing LegiStorm’s official data, gleaned from the Secretary of the Senate, offers a fascinating glimpse at pay equity in the World’s Greatest Deliberative Body.

The most recent statistics are for the half-year from October 1, 2007 to March 31, 2008. Excluding interns focuses one’s attention on the full-time personnel. For someone who worked only until, say, last February 29, prorating their salary up to six months’ service simplifies the analysis, since we can then double the half-year amounts to figure the annual salary of Senate employees.

Based on these calculations, Obama’s 28 male staffers divided among themselves total payroll expenditures of $1,523,120. Thus, Obama’s average male employee earned $54,397.

Obama’s 30 female employees split $1,354,580 among themselves, or $45,152, on average.

Why this disparity? One reason may be the underrepresentation of women among Obama’s highest-compensated employees. Of Obama’s five best-paid advisors, only one was a woman. Among his top 20, seven were women.

On average, Obama’s female staffers earn just 83 cents for every dollar his male staffers make. This figure certainly exceeds the 77-cent threshold that Obama’s campaign website condemns. However, 83 cents do not equal $1. In spite of this 17-cent gap between Obama’s rhetoric and reality, he chose to chide GOP presidential contender John McCain on this issue.

When Alaska governor Sarah Palin was named the Republican vice-presidential nominee, Obama told voters in Toledo, Ohio, on August 31 that “she’s opposed - like John McCain is - to equal pay for equal work. That doesn’t make much sense to me.”

Obama’s criticism notwithstanding, McCain’s payment patterns are the stuff of feminist dreams.

McCain’s 17 male staffers split $916,914, thus averaging $53,936. His 25 female employees divided $1,396,958 and averaged $55,878.

On average, according to these data, women in John McCain’s office make $1.04 for every dollar a man makes. In fact, ceteris paribus, a typical female staffer could earn 21 cents more per dollar paid to her male counterpart - while adding $10,726 to her annual income - by leaving Barack Obama’s office and going to work for John McCain.

How could this be?

One explanation could be that women compose a majority of McCain’s highest-paid aides. Among his top-five best-compensated staffers, three are women. Of his 20-highest-salaried employees, 13 are women. The Republican presidential nominee relies on women - much more than men - for advice at the highest, and thus, best-paid levels.

In short, these statistics suggest that John McCain is more than fair with his female employees, while Barack Obama - at the expense of the women who work for him - quietly perpetuates the very same pay-equity divide that he loudly denounces. Of all people, the Democratic standard bearer should understand that equal pay begins at home.

 
527Perm Dude
ID: 57831187
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 08:51
How to lie with statistics?

The clue in the bias is this:

One explanation could be that women compose a majority of McCain’s highest-paid aides. Among his top-five best-compensated staffers, three are women. Of his 20-highest-salaried employees, 13 are women. The Republican presidential nominee relies on women - much more than men - for advice at the highest, and thus, best-paid levels.

Actual, that's the only reason. In fact, for decades many on the Right have been pointing to the fact that men have, by and large, more experience than women and that is why they get paid more. A valid argument which still holds in many cases.

But Obama is not making the argument that women should be paid the same as men. Obama is saying that different people with the same jobs and similar skill sets and experience should be compensated regardless of their sex.

Studies show that we are not there. A pervasive underpayment of women still exists in the workplace, and with the Ledbetter vs Goodyear decision making it more difficult to sue for pay discrimination (essentially, giving companies the incentive to cover up pay equity until 180 days(!) have passed) there is unlikely to be much movement.

McCain opposed a measure to allow people more time to sue in the case of pay discrimination if they don't find out that they were getting screwed right away. Apparently the thought of people actually trying to protect their rights in court is simply abhorant to the current GOP at the federal level.
 
528Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 09:00
Pretty lame. 'Course taken without context, those "equal pay" disparity claims usually are.
 
529Perm Dude
ID: 57831187
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 09:14
What about successful ones?
 
530walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 10:15
It's all about whether the employee are in "similarly situation roles." I work in HR. Comparable worth analyses are done by examining individuals in like roles, performing similar jobs with similar levels of responsibility, tasks and spans of control.
 
531boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 10:16
Actually the bias comes from the disproportionate number of women Obama hires for the lower paying positions. YOu could then argue that if he was unbiased employer that he would promote people equally and that at 50/50 ratio would repeat it self at all levels of his staff.
 
532Perm Dude
ID: 57831187
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 10:51
I don't think that's altogether true, boikin. An unbiased employer would not promote people equally--only a biased one would. An unbiased employer would promote people based upon job-specific reasons.

Sometimes this means that people get promoted at different rates. It certainly doesn't mean that sex ratios should be maintained.

The NRO "study" (hardly an unbiased source themselves!) compared apples to oranges.
 
533Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 11:00
"similarly situated" is the term of art.
 
534Perm Dude
ID: 57831187
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 11:16
Heh. Yeah--sounds like a "fair use" copyright case. Typically (and completely) disconnected from everything else.

Do you handle any of that kind of stuff yourself MBJ?
 
535Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 11:22
No, not for years. I clerked for a firm that handled employment law cases and I got fairly well versed then, but I rarely, even when I was taking just about anyone who came through the door, would touch one.

Hard to advocate for cases that you believe are fundamentally flawed.
 
536boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 13:25
I don't think that's altogether true, boikin. An unbiased employer would not promote people equally--only a biased one would. An unbiased employer would promote people based upon job-specific reasons.

Sometimes this means that people get promoted at different rates. It certainly doesn't mean that sex ratios should be maintained.


statistically speaking if i am drawing from a pool of workers who should be all about the same then gender ratio should be kept about the same, in less there is bias to wards one gender over the other. So what you are saying PD is that Obama thinks men are superior staff members over women because he promotes them at greater rates.
 
537Perm Dude
ID: 57831187
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 13:59
Uh, no. Idiotic statement by you.

What I'm saying is that your assertion that an "unbiased" boss will promote men and women at the same rates is bunk.

There's no reason to believe that sex ratios will be maintained at all levels. Only a biased employer would work to maintain a sex-based ratio.
 
538Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 15:40
Obama shows he can be blatatly dishonest in two languages- Top that McCain!!
 
539boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 16:19
Uh, no. Idiotic statement by you.

What I'm saying is that your assertion that an "unbiased" boss will promote men and women at the same rates is bunk.

There's no reason to believe that sex ratios will be maintained at all levels. Only a biased employer would work to maintain a sex-based ratio.

please defend your statement, there is every reason to believe that if women and men are equal for a job then the ratios should be kept approximately equal. if you went to roulette table and it came up red more often than black you would call into question of wheel would you not? your hierarchical structure should represent population bases given the population is the same, by laws of probablity.
 
540Perm Dude
ID: 57831187
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 16:38
there is every reason to believe that if women and men are equal for a job then the ratios should be kept approximately equal

No, there isn't "every reason to believe." People move up the ladder at different rates and for different reasons. This is like saying that if we have 15% of entry-level people who are left-handed, then 15% of the Board should be left-handed and anything else is biased all the way up.

Your mistake is in forgetting that job advancement is based upon ability and not probability.
 
541boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 16:58
there is every reason to believe that if women and men are equal for a job then the ratios should be kept approximately equal.

I said assuming they "are equal" but what you are saying is that in all probability they are not equal? So i guess if they are not equal then you would not expect them to get paid the same.
 
542J-Bar
ID: 348351812
Thu, Sep 18, 2008, 22:06
And therefore a law to say so would be ludicrous. Thanks PD for helping me understand this issue.
 
543Perm Dude
ID: 228261817
Fri, Sep 19, 2008, 10:53
#541: Not if they aren't doing the same job. You're using the term "equal" incorrectly in this case. No two workers are equal in terms of potential for advancement (which is how you have been using it). But two workers doing essentially the same job with similar amounts of experience should be paid about the same.

J-Bar: Are you defending the Ledbetter decision? Do you know what it was about? A quick background: A woman at Goodyear found out, after 19 years of working there as a supervisor, that she had been getting paid $6500/year less than the lowest paid male supervisor (one with a lot less experience). SCOTUS tossed out the thing because she didn't sue within 180 days of the discimination occuring.
 
544Myboyjack
Dude
ID: 014826271
Fri, Sep 19, 2008, 12:30
Wow. Obama's outrageously dishonest SPainish language ad has done what I never thought was possible in causing me to link approvingly to Rush Limbaugh
 
545Boldwin
ID: 9820164
Fri, Sep 19, 2008, 17:59
Great link MBJ, but will your conservative cred ever be restored?
 
546walk
ID: 6845166
Sun, Sep 21, 2008, 08:41
Kristoff, NYT, Otherizing Obama

That many folks think Obama is, or "could be" (??) a Muslim (as if that matters?). WTF kinda idiots live here? Oy.
 
547Perm Dude
ID: 8845258
Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 11:39
One for the Jews

Funny stuff, there.
 
548Tree
ID: 13714198
Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 12:17
i love me some sarah silverman. if she says vote for Obama, then by god, that's the least you could do.

she can do no wrong in my heart. le sigh...
 
549Boldwin
ID: 58582413
Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 23:47
Because you just know this man is gonna reimpose responsible lending regulations that no longer lend money to people who cannot repay their loans.

Not even in yer dreams.
 
550Boldwin
ID: 58582413
Thu, Sep 25, 2008, 23:57
Obamafact #550:

Expert on Better Housing. And just in the nick of time.
 
551Perm Dude
ID: 48482515
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 00:19
Oh, man. More ancient history (#549)?

And what's with "Better Housing?" The grant was misused. There's no evidence Obama did anything wrong. And it was never for a house, as you must know if you'd read your own link.
 
552Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 00:27
More ancient history


It's a red flag for me. Trusting people with public money who shouldn't be trusted doesn't exactly inspire confidence in his abilities to delegate.
 
553Perm Dude
ID: 48482515
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 00:33
My reference was specifically to #549 PV. McKnight wrote a letter of recommendation which accompanied Obama's Harvard application. Big whoop.
 
554Boldwin
ID: 58582413
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 00:35
PD

It involved 'The Better Housing Association' which makes it all the more timely.

Obviously I read my own link, and obviously it speaks to who Obama really is and how well he can be trusted with the public's money.
 
555Boldwin
ID: 58582413
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 00:37
Another way to put it...'He handed that cash out so prudently let's give him 4 trillion more for 'Better Housing', Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.'
 
556Perm Dude
ID: 48482515
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 00:39
#554: Fair enough about the title. I'm not sure about "timely," however, as the money in question was never intended for housing at all, and had to do with someone else ripping off the money.

And it is Obama's fault? For not foreseeing it, I suppose? More guilt by association (since you can't find any evidence of direct guilt)?
 
557Boldwin
ID: 58582413
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 00:48
PD

What you don't know about standard operating procedure in Chicago graft would fill volumes. Obama knew precisely that the point of that grant was not beautifying an El track but rather a payoff. 'The city that works' is run by thousands of double-dipping scam artists and loafers like Obama's campaign assistant here in this story. It is so endemic that Rostenkowski was shocked that anyone was shocked. It never even occured to him that anyone would think it was a crime. The list of Illinois politicians guilty of this is virtually identical to the list of Illinois politicians.
 
558Perm Dude
ID: 48482515
Fri, Sep 26, 2008, 01:17
So you're saying that Obama knew this was a payoff, but you can't prove it. But since this is common in Chicago it goes without saying, yes?

And in light of this the $15,000/month McCain's campaign manager's company received for no work was what, exactly? Something else I don't know about?
 
559Perm Dude
ID: 48252710
Sat, Sep 27, 2008, 18:24
One moment in the debate.

Reminds me of Bill Richardson, who related during a primary debate that he zoned out for a sec and missed the question. Next to him, Obama said "Iraq--it's about Iraq" to help him out.
 
560Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 08:24
VP debate moderator Ifill releasing pro-Obama book.

This is currently the giant headline on the Drudgereport. But look where the source of the story is linked to. Since everything on that site is purported to be false, she must not really be releasing a book.
 
561Perm Dude
      ID: 1291318
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 09:20
Ifill's book is more about black poltics than Obama in particular (and I don't have any idea of how anyone can call it "pro-Obama." It is about how the black political landscape has changed in the wake of Obama's sucesses on the scene).

It isn't due to be released until January.

I see where the McCain camp is leaning on her a bit anyway, not about her book but about helping Palin out a little bit. I'm feeling the best thing for Biden to do is engage Palin as little a possible and just let Palin be Palin.
 
562Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 09:32
Ifill should recuse herself. Complete conflict of interest.
 
563Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 10:06
The Obama-Biden camp should push for her removal. They should not give the GOP any potential excuses for Palin's performance.
 
564Perm Dude
      ID: 1291318
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 10:17
They will do this to anyone for any reason, because they are just looking for an excuse. The Obama-Biden camp should draw a line in the sand.

Is there any doubt that Palin's forthcoming bad performance will be blamed on the moderator, Joe Biden, sunspots, or anything other than Sarah Palin? There is no possible way to get a moderator in who is both fair and above the suspicion of McCain/Palin.

Ifill is a fine moderator. Just because she's working on a book about politics (and because the Right is so desperate to continue to wage their campaign against the media) doesn't mean she won't do a good job in this debate as well.
 
565Seward Norse
      ID: 297412913
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 10:27
Ifill gets book publicity. McCain/Palin get to continue the liberal media bias push. What do Obama/Biden get from this?? I'd really think they'd want to ask for a change.
 
566Perm Dude
      ID: 1291318
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 10:33
She isn't pushing her book--never was.
 
567CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 10:48
The Republicans are so convinced that Sarah Palin will be outclassed in the debate they have begun floating those reasons before it even starts.
 
568Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 11:04
No, objective people expect both to gaffe and the MSM will kindly chuckle at Biden's and howl like scalded macaques over Palin's.
 
569walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 13:57
Because Palin's mistakes are qualitatively different than Biden's. If you are extremely biased or stuck in the concrete operations stage of cognitive development, then you say: "A mistake is a mistake." If you have any semblance of intelligence or can make something bordering on an objective observation, you see that Biden is a motormouth who slips up constantly, but knows his stuff whereas Palin is at best ignorant of facts and history yet shrewd and at worst uninformed & unintelligent. Otherwise, it's a very unshared view that Palin is, on the face, qualified for VP. A very hard case to sell.
 
570Perm Dude
      ID: 1291318
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 14:17
Palin's mistakes flow from an incuriosity about the events being asked about. Biden's mistakes flow from him being a blowhard.

 
571Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 15:07
Biden has more experience but he's more stuffed shirt than he realizes. His height is mostly him riding on his staffer's shoulders.

Unlike Obama at least he's mostly harmless and well meaning.

 
572walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 17:30
I think Biden is respected pretty well in the Senate by his colleagues, mostly for his knowledge of foreign policy. He has a lot of experience, too. I think he is the analog to McCain, not withstanding their personal stories and styles. I think Biden knows a lot more about policy than McCain, and McCain does other things better than Biden (although I am having a hard time coming up with them). I think one then might say, "well then, Palin is the analog to Obama." I would almost entertain that notion if she had any freakin clue about anything (other than religion and a little energy) and had an ability to learn, quickly, and speak to issues with specifics and coherence. Some subtle distinctions between two "up & comers' (although one may be coming down a bit from a recent rise).

I think the debate will help Palin though cos Biden cannot come across as perceiving to be bullying or condescending (unlike McCain, who can somehow get away with saying over & over again: "what Senator Obama does not fully understand..."...can Biden start every answer with that? I don't think so...), Palin can speak in values-terms and generalities without imploding (she does it in her speeches well, and she has reportedly done it well in her previous debates), and her performance on Thursday (in the tightly moderated format) is catered more to her being able to capitalize on these "relative strengths" and will be in stark contrast to her pitiful responses to interview questions asking for specifics.
 
573Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Oct 01, 2008, 19:28
I'll tell ya about the real Obama: He now has a NINE point lead and could quite possibly win Ohio, Florida, and Virgina.

Poll Shows Obama, for First Time, Has Significant Lead

It's not been a good week for McCain.
A CBS News Poll released Wednesday that Mr. Obama’s favorability rating, at 48 percent, is the highest it has ever been in polls conducted by CBS and The New York Times. At the same time, the number of voters who hold an unfavorable view of Mr. McCain — 42 percent — is as high as it has been since the CBS News and The Times began asking the question about Mr. McCain in 1999, the first time he ran for president.

Oh, and GW has tied Harry Truman as having the lowest approval rating EVER!

The CBS News poll found that President Bush has tied the presidential record for a low approval rating – 22 percent, matching Harry Truman’s Gallup approval rating in 1952

HA!
 
574Perm Dude
      ID: 2491128
      Thu, Oct 02, 2008, 15:13
Awesome speech by the AFL-CIO Secretary-Treasurer Richard Trumka, particularly the first 3/4 where he confronts racism in politics
 
575Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Mon, Oct 06, 2008, 22:23
Fearless prediction:

In a month we'll be hearing that the very things that McCain dare not mention. The very things Obama dare not reveal...

...now have a mandate from the people. Great Society Socialism for everybody. Ayer's daydreams are now the expressed will of the people.

How do you have a mandate for something you didn't specify? Something you demanded no one discuss?
 
576Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Mon, Oct 06, 2008, 22:31
Are you on vacation and suffering from altitude sickness? Are you usually this off balance and just fake it well the rest of the time? Your moorings have come free, Baldy, time to check yourself.
 
577Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Oct 07, 2008, 00:16
Ayer's daydreams are now the expressed will of the people.

Jan 66 thru Oct 68 - US bombs dropped on N. Vietnam total over 600,000 tons, including napalm and Agent Orange link

If you were a North Vietnamese during those 3 years, you'd likely have a different view of who were terrorists. When you look at it from that perspective, it would be Sarah Palin palling around with terrorists.
 
578Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Oct 07, 2008, 10:26
baldwin - how's the tinfoil hat coming along?

good god.
 
579Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 11:47
The words for the day from Biden and Obama seem to be that they will bring about "fundamental" "wholesale" change in the econimic structure of the country. Anyone able to fill me in on what, exactly, they mean by that? How wholesale do they intend?
 
580Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 12:13
I think they've been pretty clear on their proposed changes on taxes and regulation.

But I am getting sick of Obama and McCain being obtuse about what changes they propose. It's becoming a battle of trust, and I do trust Obama. However, it'd be nice if he were laying it all out there and leading rather than trying not to make a mistake and blow his lead. It sucks to have to wait until January, potentially, to hear how he actually is going to shake things up beyond changing taxes (which I don't think he'll do as much as he says he will) and regulation (which he has been fairly unspecific about).

McCain's "I know how to bet bin Laden" line was the most curious of the night.
 
581boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 12:27
Re 575 and 579, do these posts not both speak to the same thing?

Re 580, what does it matter it is not like they are really going to be able "shake" anything up
 
582Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 17:09
Oh that's ancient history. He was only eight years old at the time. Try twenty-nine years old and just another Columbia radical following the expected trajectory as the last of the weathermen convicts were going off to prison and the next wave of Columbia radicals were pursuing other tactics. Like forming their own institutions, think ACORN.

Radical action now...
 
583Perm Dude
      ID: 493888
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 17:13
Uh, yeah. Today's meme: Obama was on "the expected trajectory."

Does the RNC fill us in tomorrow about how they got the trajectory wrong?
 
584Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 17:54
Remember that phony gun organization that was created to support Obama? Just how dishonest is this?
...during his time as director, Joyce Foundation spent millions creating and supporting anti-gun organizations.

The plan’s objective was bold: the judicial obliteration of the Second Amendment.

Joyce’s directors found a vulnerable point. When judges cannot rely upon past decisions, they sometimes turn to law review articles.

In 1999, midway through Obama’s tenure, the Joyce board voted to grant the Chicago-Kent Law Review $84,000, a staggering sum by law review standards. The Review promptly published an issue in which all articles attacked the individual right view of the Second Amendment.

In a breach of law review custom, Chicago-Kent let an “outsider” serve as editor; he was Carl Bogus, a faculty member of a different law school. Bogus had a unique distinction: he had been a director of Handgun Control Inc.

Bogus solicited only articles hostile to the individual right view of the Second Amendment, offering authors $5,000 each. But word leaked out, and Prof. Randy Barnett of Boston University volunteered to write in defense of the individual right to arms. Bogus refused to allow him to write for the review, later explaining that “sometimes a more balanced debate is best served by an unbalanced symposium.”

Joyce Foundation apparently believed it held this power over the entire university. Glenn Reynolds later recalled that when he and two other professors were scheduled to discuss the Second Amendment on campus, Joyce’s staffers “objected strenuously” to their being allowed to speak, protesting that Joyce Foundation was being cheated by an “‘agenda of balance’ that was inconsistent with the Symposium’s purpose.” Joyce next bought up an issue of Fordham Law Review.

The plan worked smoothly. One court, in the course of ruling that there was no individual right to arms, cited the Chicago-Kent articles eight times. Then, in 2001, a federal Court of Appeals in Texas determined that the Second Amendment was an individual right.

The Joyce Foundation board (which still included Obama) responded by expanding its attack on the Second Amendment. Its next move came when Ohio State University announced it was establishing the “Second Amendment Research Center” as a thinktank headed by anti-individual-right historian Saul Cornell. [infamous for writing a discredited history of guns in America complete with fabricated data - B] Joyce put up no less than $400,000 to bankroll its creation. The grant was awarded at the board’s December 2002 meeting, Obama’s last function as a Joyce director. In reporting the grant, the OSU magazine Making History made clear that the purpose was to influence a future Supreme Court case:
“The effort is timely: a series of test cases - based on a new wave of scholarship, a recent decision by a federal Court of Appeals in Texas, and a revised Justice Department policy-are working their way through the courts. The litigants challenge the courts’ traditional reading of the Second Amendment as a protection of the states’ right to organize militia, asserting that the Amendment confers a much broader right for individuals to own guns. The United States Supreme Court is likely to resolve the debate within the next three to five years.”
The Center proceeded to generate articles denying the individual right to arms. The OSU connection also gave Joyce an academic money laundry. When it decided to buy an issue of the Stanford Law and Policy Review, it had a cover. Joyce handed OSU $125,000 for that purpose; all the law review editors knew was that OSU’s Foundation granted them that breathtaking sum, and a helpful Prof. Cornell volunteered to organize the issue. (The review was later sufficiently embarassed to publish an open letter on the affair).

The Joyce directorate’s plan almost succeeded. The individual rights view won out in the Heller Supreme Court appeal, but only by 5-4. The four dissenters were persuaded in part by Joyce-funded writings, down to relying on an article which misled them on critical historical documents.

Having lost that fight, Obama now claims he always held the individual rights view of the Second Amendment, and that he “respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms.”
But as a Joyce director, Obama was involved in a wealthy foundation’s attempt to manipulate the Supreme Court, buy legal scholarship, and obliterate the individual right to arms.


He has zero character. Character is what you do when you think no one is looking.


 
585Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 17:55
PD

That was entirely my term, not the talking points for today, out in the ether.
 
586bibA
      ID: 16954615
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 18:39
Because the NRA states that their objective was to obliterate the Second Amendment might be an exageration. From what I read about the Joyce Foundation, they had many goals - as evidenced by their paid grants in 2005:
$8,385,304 in its Environment program, $7,888,380 in its Education program, $6,302,775 in its Employment program, $3,056,117 in its Gun Violence Program, $2,818,105 in its Money and Politics program, and $1,427,350 in its Culture program.
You may note that the monies doled out to the Gun Violence Program is approximately 10% of its total.

Among the many programs the Foundation was set up to support was: Funds research and advocacy to reduce gun ownership, deaths and injuries. This includes support of anti-gun groups. So, to expect this foundation to advocate FOR gun rights may be a bit unrealistic.

Regarding a Supreme Court decision, your site states The four dissenters were persuaded in part by Joyce-funded writings, down to relying on an article which misled them on critical historical documents. When I see someone else saying that four Supreme Court judges were "misled", I can wonder if there is any basis in fact to support such a statement, or just the writers opinion.....and I for one would not expect this particular site to be objective.
 
587Perm Dude
      ID: 493888
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 19:12
C'mon: Of course they were misled. They can't possibly agree with a group that wants to reduce guns in this country! Next thing you know, they'll be running candidates married to people who are involved in successionist groups...
 
588bibA
      ID: 16954615
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 19:30
Boldwin - let us suppose that it is true - that Obama had been on the board of a foundation that supported restricting gun ownership in an effort to lessen violence.....and later publicly stated to millions of Americans that he did believe that a private citizen had a right to bear arms. Would you feel that you were faced with two choices? To take him at his word, or to assume that he was a deceitful liar. In this case, maybe you took the negative view.
 
589Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 23:49
biBa

And your point that they nearly overturned the Second Amendment with only one tenth of their budget should make me feel better how?

I shudder to look into what they got done with the rest.
 
590Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Wed, Oct 08, 2008, 23:55
biBa

He created a gun owner's group in Pa. to claim that he spoke for the gun owner's interests and to endorse himself.

You could almost get away with saying he believed in the individual rights interpretation after the SCOTUS ruled on the matter but you can't by any stretch say he speaks for gun owners.

It remains to be seen if Obama's SCOTUS appointees are as enamored of stare decisis in the case of the second amendment as leftists are when it comes to Roe v Wade. I am not counting on it.
 
591Perm Dude
      ID: 493888
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 00:08
they nearly overturned the Second Amendment

Did they now? Are you under the belief that Heller, had it gone the other way, would have "overturned" the Second Amendment? And that a single scholarly journal somehow misled these jurists?

I guess if the intent of your error-filled cut-and-paste is to imply a shadowy Obama will do exactly what Bush has done in curtailing our rights then I suppose your tactics are self explanatory. But I would have hoped you'd at least do some fact-checking. Here, I'll help:

-Obama was never the director of the Joyce Foundaiton.

-While on the board, Obama voted twice against those very actions you claim reflect his actual (secret) views.

Why is Obama kicking McCain's butt? Because America is sick of the kind of smears reflected in #584 and other recent posts of yours, Baldwin. Its the kind of thing which reflects in people yelling "kill him" at political rallies.

 
592Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 00:32
The level of desperation in your defense is amusing considering then fact you are ahead in the polls.

Yeah, he was a pro-gun member of Joyce's board.

Tell me another whopper.
 
593Boldwin
      ID: 40850297
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 09:10
Nailed member of socialist party.

 
594Perm Dude
      ID: 5792398
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 09:23
How sad and pathetic. Are you still claiming that Obama was the Director of the Joyce Foundation?

And now you are stating that he holds the same same exact views as a group he was a board member of, despite his clear statements otherwise? Sad and pathetic.
 
595Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 11:37
If you actually believe Obama is for the right to bear arms you are willfully gullible. But more likely just a PD willing to lie to win.
 
596Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 11:52
Slate can barely contain their eagerness to admit they are marxist. Of course I was accused of tin-hat-wearing to point out the things Slate is admitting here. They'll be claiming they have a mandate and a rehabilitated image for something they dared not say in order to get elected.
During the past 25 years, there have been countless sentiments that respectable Democratic politicians were never, ever supposed to say out loud for fear of angering the all-powerful Republicans. It still isn't wise for Obama to say them, but maybe the New Complacency will loosen other tongues within the political mainstream. Even if it doesn't, it's fun to think about what those utterances might be. What follows is a list, compiled with help from my fellow Slate staffers. The views expressed don't necessarily reflect those of the contributors—one of whom is a conservative Republican—or even me. But they sure are a refreshing change from what we've been hearing since 1981. With a little luck, they may soon be orthodoxies.

I think Karl Marx had some valuable insights into capitalist economies!

I think abortion should be safe and legal. Rare is fine, too, but the way to achieve that is contraception, baby!

I think Mormons are kooks!

The Second Amendment does too allow government to ban handguns!

Let's standardize the federal age of consent at 16!

Promiscuity between consenting adults is good exercise!

Health care is a service, not a business!

Pot is no more dangerous than vodka. Legalize it!

I don't support the troops. I support some troops, depending on whether or not they've committed war crimes!

No more wars without United Nations or at least NATO support!

Saving the boulder darter was worth a few thousand jobs!

If Eastern Europeans think NATO will go to war to defend them against Russia, they're out of their minds!

Ditto if Taiwan thinks the United States will go to war to defend it against China!

Let's teach evolution in Sunday school!

The military-industrial complex is a greater menace than most foreign nations!

If Israel isn't out of the occupied territories in six months, we'll cut off all aid.

Higher gas prices are good because they make everybody bike and take public transit like they should!

America isn't the greatest nation in the world. We think it is only because it's our country. Duh!

America won't be the world's most powerful nation forever. And you know what? Handing that responsibility off will be a relief!

America's official languages should be English and Spanish!

Judges should legislate from the bench if they want to. Conservatives do it, so why not liberals?

I do not accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior! I don't even believe in God!

What's so great about the Judeo-Christian tradition?

Big-city values are better than small-town values!

I'm glad the Muslims whupped the Christians during the Crusades! Served 'em right!

We need a shorter work week!

Employees who work more than 40 hours a week should always get overtime.

We're going to need affirmative action for a long time.

We're undertaxed. Look at Europe!

Terrorism isn't that big a threat to America!

I'm not a "progressive," for Pete's sake. I'm a liberal!

I'm not a "liberal," for Pete's sake. I'm a leftist!

I'm not a "leftist," for Pete's sake. I'm a democratic socialist!

I'm not a democratic socialist, for Pete's sake. I'm a Communist! Just kidding!

Let's bring back the era of big government.

Walter Mondale would have made an excellent president!

It's not enough that the top 5 percent pays 55 percent of our taxes. Why not 75 percent? Believe me, they can afford it!

Prostitution is a victimless crime! Don't outlaw it; regulate it, so we can arrest physically abusive pimps, limit the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, and halt sexual trafficking in minors!

Many welfare moms kicked off the rolls by the 1986 welfare-reform bill are worse off in their crappy jobs!

Ronald Reagan was a crummy president!

Broad availability of gay marriage: good. Broad availability of gay divorce: better!

You want to know why George W. Bush was a lousy president? Because he's stupid!

Pornography is good for your marriage because it teaches you new sexual techniques!

The problem with public schools is private schools!
But you won't hear Obama say that now, will you?. Ergo no mandate, no rehabilitation.
 
597walk
      ID: 2938911
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 12:40
I wish it were okay for Obama or any other Dem to say the real deal on the right to bear arms...we have discussed this elsewhere. This is a dealbreaker with many voters, and a shame. The bottom line is that some guns/rifles make sense, but with this day and age, some don't...more potential for harm than good (fun/sport/hunting for food). However, except for assault weapons, no one goes there. Whatever.
 
598Tree
      ID: 14942910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 13:00
Nailed member of socialist party.

you're still as cute as button Baldwin.

a hard right leaning "source", founded by a guy who once tried to organize a boycott against the World Wrestling Federation because he claimed that one of its television programs caused the deaths of children, is given absolutely truth by you.

ultimately, Bozell's lies about the WWF got him sued, and he paid them 3.5 million dollars.

then again it should come as no surprise that you'd give full credence to a right-wing leaning nut case who has been proven a liar. it's all you've got, and falls in line with your character.
 
599Tree
      ID: 14942910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 13:17
getting them back after 40+ years...

site appears to be overloaded now, but Rednecks for Obama
 
600Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 13:39
Tree

If you ever bothered to read a link you would have noticed that the source material was The Progressive Populist.

And I am supposed to be so embarrassed by someone who thot kids copying heavyweight 'wrestlers' might be putting themselves in danger that I am not allowed to look at a link he finds?
 
601Tree
      ID: 14942910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 13:57
And I am supposed to be so embarrassed by someone who thot kids copying heavyweight 'wrestlers' might be putting themselves in danger that I am not allowed to look at a link he finds?

1. it certainly makes one raise an eyebrow - i mean, why wrestling? why not football? or hockey?

2. the bigger issue is that Bozell's integrity can certainly be questioned, since he's more-or-less been proven to be a liar - paid big bucks as a penalty too.
 
602Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 14:11
Since the source he points to are progressives, do you really think anyone with a room temperature IQ thinks he is responsible for the proof Obama was actually in a socialist party?

You can click right on the archive of the progressive site and see it for yourself.

 
603Perm Dude
      ID: 41935913
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 14:35
do you really think anyone with a room temperature IQ thinks he is responsible for the proof Obama was actually in a socialist party?

Yes, I do. You make the claim, you provide the proof.

Any site which capitalizes the adjective phrase socialist party probably has some serious discernment issues anyway.

But, like the rest of the mud flying around ("He's a Muslim!" "He's a communist!" blah blah), what is the point? These arguments aren't intended to advance any real point except to associate Obama with bad things.
 
604boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 15:11
But, like the rest of the mud flying around ("He's a Muslim!" "He's a communist!" blah blah), what is the point? These arguments aren't intended to advance any real point except to associate Obama with bad things. if he is Muslim not important, but if he had been a communist or socialist it would be different they are indications of what he believes politically and would probably be relevant. If McCain had associated with kkk political movement you would not be saying that it is not important.

Never the less i mean what are arguing about here? I am sure the dem control washington will have us all new socialist in few years, i think we are turning into france and boldwin can post links every day confirming this.
 
605Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 15:40
It's not even an argument. It's not realistically in dispute. It was found at a progressive site which regards his former membership in a socialist party as a good thing. The site in fact took it down after it was discovered [in order to benefit Obama] and had to be recovered from a general internet archive.
 
606Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 15:46
I don't think we are headed for a country like France eventually. I think we are headed [step by step] in the midterm for a one world government resembling China.

Capitalism for the power elite, oppressive marxism for the masses.
 
607Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 15:46
With a controlled media putting lipstick on that pig.
 
608Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 19:15
Baldwin: You are now singlehandedly trying with all your might to end all rational discussion here on these boards. You are now the town crazy who gets up during council meetings and starts yelling ridiculous accusations and has to be removed by force.

I'm telling you to stop this stupidity. If you can't make a serious argument, and you haven't approached one since the whole FLDS case, you need to leave the political discussion to the adults.
 
609Perm Dude
      ID: 3924922
      Thu, Oct 09, 2008, 23:25
He's obviously been reading far too much of The Corner. Luckily Hilzoy has stepped in with some cold water.
 
610Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 03:33
It would be interesting to ask, for instance, why so few of Obama's law students have come forward to talk about his attempt to transform them into Maoist cadres, or why the lawyers in his firm have not mentioned his commitment to cultural revolution, or how he has managed to conceal his desire to nationalize the means of production from, well, everyone.

His roomates are bundlers for Obama. They are fellow Columbia radicals. Far left types like Barney Frank and Pelosi are in fact clearly subverting the culture and transforming the country into marxist servitude. The issue isn't 'why doesn't he seem different than his hard left political contemporaries'. The issue is what are all these hard left types actually accomplishing. Earlier I posted a link showing Obama actually teaching Alinsky in his early career [at Harvard I think]. His students haven't come forward because they are his students. They are just like him. He was teaching them the same things he was brought on board at Acorn to teach. Basically maoist subversion without actually using the scary title.

Was he secretly plotting to get asked, unexpectedly, to speak at the Democratic Convention, take a chance on running for President,...

The question is asked backwards. Illinois marxist radicals saw him as exactly the electable star [and kindred spirit] they were looking for and promoted him and rushed him down the pipeline. He didn't have to plot. He didn't have to plot to get presented at Ayers' posh home as the next senator. He didn't have to plot to become Emil Brown's protege. He didn't have to plot to find Dems who favored a harder left nominee than Hillary.

back when he was on the Harvard Law Review?

Yes, we've already seen what mischief he was up to using law reviews to subvert the constitution when he was on the board at the Joyce Foundation.

absolutely iron self-control, might explain why no one caught a glimpse of Obama's secret radicalism: he has been concealing it for decades, the better to bore away at our bourgeois institutions.

Secret radicalism? I've been calling colleges, especially the ones he was involved with, bastians of marxist dinosaurs for a long long time. The marxism rampant at those institutions and the professors there who often openly express their hatred for traditional america are the rule not the exception. Northwestern professor John L. McKnight who got Obama into Harvard is an avowed open radical marxist. Appearing less radical than him or say, such marxist buffoons as Ward Churchill isn't devious plotting. It is just evidence of someone who wants to succeed.

if Obama were as stealthy as that, if he had lived a secret life for decades, completely concealing his inner Maoist, he would never, ever have blown his cover by getting on a board with William Ayers.

Associating with radicals has never been a hinderance among the Democrat base or in Illinois politics so it wasn't neccessary to hide it until now when he must become very slippery with this issue. With a media so embarrassingly in the tank for him, there hasn't been the need to meet this issue head-on and honestly. There's a surprise.
 
611Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 06:36
While we are at it...

Obama's philisophical mentors on religion...
Saul Alinsky

Dedicates book to satan:

Saul Alinsky’s radicalism was expressed in his 1971 book, “Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals.” In that book, Alinsky said, “Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins -- or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom -- Lucifer.” Alinsky never saw himself as the devil, but as some radical angel who could bedevil “the Establishment” and force it to change to assuage pressures from community organizations.

[BTW Hillary wrote a glowing college thesis about Alinsky also]

Bill Ayers quoting Hellen Keller, syndicalist aka communist

We have tried peace education for 1,900 years [christianity - B] and it has failed. Let us try revolution and see what it will do now.”

 
612Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 09:21
Boldwin is in full on character assassination mode. It's only a matter of time until he finds some unsolved murders to link to Obama.
 
613Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 10:48
When revealing the truth everyone is avoiding feels like character assassination, maybe the problem is with the character, not the revealing.
 
614Perm Dude
      ID: 19929108
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 11:20
Maybe the problem is you are down to nothing except character assassination.
 
615Perm Dude
      ID: 19929108
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 11:31
Full panic mode from the base, perhaps? Stunned, indeed. And their reaction is to increase threats of physical violence against Obama, stoked by wild character assassinations, increasingly unhinged charges of shadowy and previously under-investigated un-American activities by Obama in the past.

Fear drives fearmongering. But we've reached the point where the GOP "base" has made itself irrelevant. More and more people are moving toward Obama these days not because they agree with him, but because they are turned off by the smears by the Right.

Obama's temperment in times of crisis show through. He's not Christ, but he appears to be putting into practice many of Christ's teachings regarding how we need to conduct ourselves.
 
616Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 11:52
When revealing the truth everyone is avoiding feels like character assassination, maybe the problem is with the character, not the revealing.

you're the only one here who seems to be avoiding the truth, but your little tin hat prevents you from seeing that.

post 612 was right on - you care nothing about the issues, or this nation. you care about a single-minded fury and bias you have, and don't care what lies you have to tell in an attempt to destroy someone.

here's some of the fantastic (read: frightening) stuff coming from people like you, who do this nation a tremendous disservice..

"Terrorist!” one man screamed Monday at a New Mexico rally after McCain voiced the campaign’s new rhetorical staple aimed at raising doubts about the Illinois senator: “Who is the real Barack Obama?”

-----

"He's a damn liar!” yelled a woman Wednesday in Pennsylvania. "Get him. He's bad for our country."

---

And Thursday, at a campaign town hall in Wisconsin, one Republican brought the crowd to its feet when he used his turn at the microphone to offer a soliloquy so impassioned it made the network news and earned extended play on Rush Limbaugh’s program.

“I’m mad; I’m really mad!” the voter bellowed. “And what’s going to surprise ya, is it’s not the economy — it’s the socialists taking over our country.”

After the crowd settled down he was back at it. “When you have an Obama, Pelosi and the rest of the hooligans up there gonna run this country, we gotta have our head examined!”

---

On Thursday, as one man in the audience asked a question about Obama’s associations, the crowd erupted in name-calling.

"Obama Osama!" one woman called out.

And twice this week, local officials have warmed up the crowd by railing against “Barack Hussein Obama.”


these arent't just your people, Baldwin. You are very clearly, obviously, and sadly, one of them - the ignorant, the ill-informed, and the crazy.
 
617Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 13:03
Baldwin - post 596. There is nothing Marxist about that list. Anyone with a hairwidth of intellectual insight has to admit that Marx had incite. You may not agree with his conclusions or the methods of self proclaimed Marxist followers, but to deny that he had incite is childish.

Here's my line-by-line sentiments towards each of those "statements" you were so enraged over:

Yes, yes, Republican sentiment, not mine, yes, link - – that basically is the law now, Hell yeah!, yes, link - best statement here, yep, somewhat, "blow jobs" - no, "logging jobs" - yes, wrong, yes, could care less, yes, Which “occupied territories”?, No, I love public transport, but not the statement, absolutely, no, no, stupid, of course, stupid, what the hell are “big city” or “small town” values other than piles of clay that each of us create whatever they want?, stupid, yes, well, it’s the law for non-exempt, well, if conservatives are considered an oppressed class, we may need to force ABC, CBS, and NBC to hire some obviously underqualified losers from Liberty University, yes, obviously, blah, blah, blah, blah, no, of course Mondale would have been great, yes, yes, there was no 1986 welfare bill, you morons, yes – “crummy” is not nearly adequate an adjective, that’s just inane, that was only one of his many flaws, duh! That is just one of millions of benefits, stupid.
 
618Boldwin
      ID: 5937910
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 13:09
has to admit that Marx had incite

Oh, he was all about incite, alright.

I really have to say that the formula 'sabotage it and them propose a marxist solution' would be a remarkably successful method of change, albeit change for the incredibly worse.

True words from an bad man. Masters of evil have their own measure of insight into darkness, not that that is a good thing.
 
619Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 13:55
re: the list in #596

It's astonishing that it's supposedly Democrats who say:

Mormons are kooks

Maybe most Democrats like SZ do think Mormons are kooks. However, it is the Evangelical community which actually condemns Mormons and then has the audacity to to claim that Democrats are also saying:

I do not accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior! I don't even believe in God!

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ and they believe in God. That obviously isn't enough for say,
Pastor Robert Jeffers of theFirst Baptist Church of Dallas, who said last year:

"Mitt Romney is a Mormon, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise," Dr. Jeffress said in a sermon on Sept. 30. "Even though he talks about Jesus as his Lord and savior, he is not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity. Mormonism is a cult."

"What really distresses me is some of my ministerial friends and even leaders in our convention are saying, 'Oh, well, he talks about Jesus, we talk about Jesus. What's the big deal,' " he said. "It is a big deal if anybody names another way to be saved except through Jesus Christ."

"I have conservative friends who are saying, well, he believes in Jesus, we believe in Jesus, let's just hold hands and sing kumbaya," he said. "It doesn't work that way. If a person is supporting Romney, that's fine. But don't confuse him with being a Christian."

"It's a little hypocritical for the last eight years to be talking about how important it is for us to elect a Christian president and then turn around and endorse a non-Christian," he said. "Christian conservatives are going to have to decide whether having a Christian president is really important or not."


Twice a year during general conference in Salt Lake, a continency of "real" Christians comes to own and insults Mormons across the street from Temple Square. Ironically, general conference was last weekend. Here's a letter to the editor in this morning's SL Trib

This Sunday I walked down to Temple Square to hear messages of hope, comfort and good cheer at LDS General Conference. Unfortunately, I encountered the itinerant "evangelists" who come to make visitors feel good about their choice of religion.
I mistakenly engaged in a brief discussion with a few of these kindly Christian souls. How it warmed my heart to be told that I was worshipping the wrong Jesus, or that every time I opened my mouth, I was speaking for my father, the devil. How decent of these people to come and shed a ray of sunshine on my otherwise miserable existence.
The encounter upset me and I should not have let it do so. I know better than to roll in the mud with pigs, for I also get dirty, and the pigs enjoy it. But the messages of the conference session were powerful and uplifting, and after the meeting was over, I joined a group of people lining the sidewalk in front of Temple Square, singing songs of faith. That felt much better and I went home encouraged, and at peace, but with just enough residual irritation to write this letter. Now it's out of my system, and I can rest well.

Christopher C. DeSantis
Salt Lake City


Kinda reminds you of the Shia and Sunni - both tenants of Islam, except where Shia and Sunni engage each other with their hostilities, you'd be hard-pressed to find any Mormons protesting at Baptist functions and insulting whatever mythology it is that they adhere to. It certainly has nothing to do with the spirit of brotherhood.

Beyond that, most of the list, as SZ points out, is the ultimate in bufoonery, except:

Pot is no more dangerous than vodka

Anyone who has experienced both knows that vodka is a lot more dangerous than pot.
 
620Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 14:02
Maybe most Democrats like SZ do think Mormons are kooks.

No, as I stated above, I think that is a Republican sentiment as I believe this is why Romney was sunk. I do get a good chuckle when reading some of the things that have gone on behind the scenes in Mormon history, but I wouldn't say they are kooks.
 
621Boldwin
      ID: 29241221
      Sun, Oct 12, 2008, 22:24
 
622Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Sun, Oct 12, 2008, 23:49
Thanks for that, Baldwin. The next four years are going to be awesome.
 
623Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 00:19
When Baldwin goes to bed at night, he dreams he could be HIM: Andy Martin.
Until this month, the man who is widely credited with starting the cyberwhisper campaign that still dogs Mr. Obama was a secondary character in news reports, with deep explorations of his background largely confined to liberal blogs. But an appearance in a documentary-style program on the Fox News Channel watched by three million people last week thrust the man, Andy Martin, and his past into the foreground. The program allowed Mr. Martin to assert falsely and without challenge that Mr. Obama had once trained to overthrow the government.

An examination of legal documents and election filings, along with interviews with his acquaintances, revealed Mr. Martin, 62, to be a man with a history of scintillating if not always factual claims. He has left a trail of animosity — some of it provoked by anti-Jewish comments — among political leaders, lawyers and judges in three states over more than 30 years. He is a law school graduate, but his admission to the Illinois bar was blocked in the 1970s after a psychiatric finding of “moderately severe character defect manifested by well-documented ideation with a paranoid flavor and a grandiose character.”

So cancel those plans to finish law school late in life, Baldy, the Illinois Bar doesn't play around.
Theories about Mr. Obama’s background have taken on a life of their own. But independent analysts seeking the origins of the cyberspace attacks wind up at Mr. Martin’s first press release, posted on the Free Republic Web site in August 2004. Its general outlines have turned up in a host of works that have expounded falsely on Mr. Obama’s heritage or supposed attempts to conceal it, including “Obama Nation,” the widely discredited best seller about Mr. Obama by Jerome R. Corsi. Mr. Corsi opens the book with a quote from Mr. Martin. Mr. Martin’s original work found amplification in 2006, when a man named Ted Sampley wrote an article painting Mr. Obama as a secret practitioner of Islam. Quoting liberally from Mr. Martin, the article circulated on the Internet, and its contents eventually found their way into various e-mail messages, particularly an added claim that Mr. Obama had attended “Jakarta’s Muslim Wahhabi schools. Mr. Sampley, coincidentally, is a Vietnam veteran and longtime opponent of Mr. McCain and Senator John Kerry, both of whom he accused of ignoring his claims that American prisoners were left behind in Vietnam. He previously portrayed Mr. McCain as a “Manchurian candidate.” Speaking of Mr. Martin’s influence on his Obama writings, Mr. Sampley said, “I keyed off of his work.”

In various court papers, Mr. Martin had impugned Jews. A motion he filed in a 1983 bankruptcy case called the judge “a crooked, slimy Jew who has a history of lying and thieving common to members of his race.” In another motion, filed in 1983, Mr. Martin wrote, “I am able to understand how the Holocaust took place, and with every passing day feel less and less sorry that it did.” In an interview, Mr. Martin denied some statements against Jews attributed to him in court papers, blaming malicious judges for inserting them. But in his “48 Hours” interview in 1993, he affirmed a different anti-Semitic part of the affidavit that included the line about the Holocaust, saying, “The record speaks for itself.”

So, what will it be, Baldwin. "Clinton was worse" or "Martin upset the Democratic elite and they set out to destroy him" or "Acorn is worse" or "The Jewish MSM is terrified of him and are character assassinating the poor guy."?
 
624Boldwin
      ID: 29241221
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 03:08
SZ

If you like the idea of the marxist radicals who took over the college president's offices in the 60's, taking over the government indeed this will truly be your cup of tea.

A victory won by deceit, what a surprise that the dishonest left would use trickery and deceit.

PD

In a choice between the Arkansas dixie mafia money launderer and the 60's weathermen taking over, I'll just pass.

Those two choices alone are so stupid that the fact they were/will be made disqualify democracy as a viable form of government. You know my choice.
 
625Perm Dude
      ID: 169101214
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 09:43
Ha! You seriously think that Obama is being controlled by Bill Ayers? I agree: Those two choices alone are so stupid but not for the reasons you think. For all your public pride about thinking outside the box you very quickly put on the GOP box when the chips are down, matching (word for word) the nastiness, tone, and fake arguments found on some of the worst rightwing sites there are). Everyone there, individually, priding themselves on thinking for themselves but the massive groupthink not allowing for anything new or different.

I do know your choice. It is to not think at all.
 
626Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 10:10
what a surprise that the dishonest left would use trickery and deceit.

What a suprise you are unable to recognize your own dishonesty.
ACORN and friends are responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis from the YouTube clip in #621
Since that's basically what Ann Coulter claimed a couple weeks ago, then of course you accept it as gospel. Back then I asked for, but never received, documented data to support this claim, or even support from a few respected economists( Stanley Kurtz holds a Ph.D. in social anthropology, not economics), not bloggers and ultra-partisan columnists. Nothing then, nothing now. Just wild and irresponsible claims.

ACORN and Obama sued banks forcing them to make bad loans

I found documentation of one suit.

Case Name
Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank Fair Housing/Lending/Insurance
Docket / Court 94 C 4094 ( N.D. Ill. ) FH-IL-0011
State/Territory Illinois

Case Summary
Plaintiffs filed their class action lawsuit on July 6, 1994, alleging that Citibank had engaged in redlining practices in the Chicago metropolitan area in violation of the Equal Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA), 15 U.S.C. 1691; the Fair Housing Act, 42 U.S.C. 3601-3619; the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution; and 42 U.S.C. 1981, 1982. Plaintiffs alleged that the Defendant-bank rejected loan applications of minority applicants while approving loan applications filed by white applicants with similar financial characteristics and credit histories. Plaintiffs sought injunctive relief, actual damages, and punitive damages.

U.S. District Court Judge Ruben Castillo certified the Plaintiffs’ suit as a class action on June 30, 1995. Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank, 162 F.R.D. 322 (N.D. Ill. 1995). Also on June 30, Judge Castillo granted Plaintiffs’ motion to compel discovery of a sample of Defendant-bank’s loan application files. Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Fed. Sav. Bank, 162 F.R.D. 338 (N.D. Ill. 1995).

The parties voluntarily dismissed the case on May 12, 1998, pursuant to a settlement agreement.

Plaintiff’s Lawyers Alexis, Hilary I. (Illinois)
FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000
Childers, Michael Allen (Illinois)
FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000
Clayton, Fay (Illinois)
FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000
Cummings, Jeffrey Irvine (Illinois)
FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000
Love, Sara Norris (Virginia)
FH-IL-0011-9000
Miner, Judson Hirsch (Illinois)
FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-9000
Obama, Barack H. (Illinois)
FH-IL-0011-7500 | FH-IL-0011-7501 | FH-IL-0011-9000
Wickert, John Henry (Illinois)
FH-IL-0011-9000

One would think if these lawsuits were systemic, as indicated by the rhetoric, there would be massive amounts of documentation to support the claim. Maybe there is, but I can't find it, and the blogs that constantly repeat these accusations don't provide it.

the 60's weathermen taking over

Any accusation of dishonesty by others is surely suspect given that gem.

There's a lot not to like about ACORN, and I would agree that the media has been remiss in covering their sometimes fraudulent activities.

But attempting to claim the mantle of honesty with unsupported claims that ACORN and Obama are responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis is also fraudulent. Claims that ACORN forced banks to make bad loans, that ACORN terrorized bankers at their homes as the reason for the failure of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, WAMU, Wachovia, IndyBank, etc as an honest interpretation of the current economic crisis shows a dire need for the rabid right to re-explore what constitutes honesty.

 
627Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 10:22
Baldwin - what wild claims HAVEN'T you thrown at Obama in the last few months?

and which ones have actually stuck?

yep - that's why you keep tossing them out there.

In a choice between the Arkansas dixie mafia money launderer and the 60's weathermen taking over, I'll just pass.

in a laundry list of absurd things you've thrown out there, this is a priceless gem. Suddenly, an Obama presidency is the rise to power of a group of radicals FROM 40 YEARS AGO???

precious. you are simply precious, and although SZ suggested you leave several days ago, this board would probably be worse off without your wonderings, meanderings, and all out whackiness...
 
628walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 10:38
PolitiFact's View
 
629Perm Dude
      ID: 169101214
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 10:47
I homeschool my kids. I guess I'm also running a "radical education foundation."
 
630walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 11:00
You rad, you.

I did not go yesterday, but our friends went out to some Philly suburbs on behalf of Obama. They were in a Jewish community trying to enlighten Jewish voters about Obama's Israel platform. They loved doing it, and said most folks were receptive to the knocks on the doors. Some were not interested, some said they were for McCain (and so my friends said 'thank you' and moved on), and some were uncommitted, and if they were inclined to discuss, those were the folks with whom conversations were held.
 
631Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 11:43
Headsup for Obama spinmeisters: You'll need to get out the denial machine by the time they run 'Dreams from My Father' thru the style program and detect for sure if it was written by Obama or ghostwritten by Ayers.
One clue comes from an unexpected source: Rashid Khalidi, the radical Arab-American friend of Obama's and reputed ally of the Palestinian Liberation Organization.

In the acknowledgment section of his 2004 book, "Resurrecting Empire," Khalidi pays tribute to his own literary muse, the man who has made "unrepentant" a household word, Bill Ayers.

Writes Khalidi, "Bill was particularly generous in letting me use his family's dining room table to do some writing for the project." Khalidi did not need the table. He had one of his own. He needed the help.

Khalidi had spent several years at Chicago University's Center for International Studies. At a 2003 farewell dinner on the occasion of his departure from Chicago, Obama toasted him, thanking him and his wife for the many dinners they had shared as well as for his "consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases."

Chicago's Hyde Park was home to a tight, influential radical community at whose center was the charismatic Bill Ayers and his wife, Bernadine Dohrn. In this world, the Ayers' terrorist rap sheet only heightened their reputation. Obama had to know.

The couple had given up revolution in 1980 for the long, slow march through the institutions. By 1994, if not earlier, Ayers saw a way to quicken that march.

I believe that after failing to finish his book on time, and after forfeiting his advance from Simon & Schuster, Obama brought his sprawling, messy, sophomoric manuscript to the famed dining room table of Bill Ayers and said, "Help."

With all due respect to Sarah Palin, Obama likely saw Ayers and Dohrn less as "pals" and more as parents. Dohrn and Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, were born the same year, 1942.

In fact, as young women, the two looked enough alike that I had to double check before disproving that a photo floating around the Internet of Dohrn with Ayers was not a photo of Dunham with Ayers.

As to Ayers, envision him as the seafaring Odysseus to Obama's father-hungry Telemachus. By Obama's own admission, "Dreams" would become "a record of a personal, interior journey – a boy's search for his father."

The question is often asked why Obama associated with Ayers. The more appropriate question is why the powerful Ayers would associate with the then-obscure Obama.

Before Obama's ascendancy, it was Ayers who had the connections, the clout and the street cred. Ayers could also write, and write very well. By the mid-1990s he had several books published.

My suspicion is that Ayers saw the potential in Obama, and he chose to mold it. The calculation in "Dreams" is palpable. Nothing about the book would deny a black Democrat the White House. And if "Dreams" were beautifully written, it could launch a career.

As I have documented earlier, one thread that ties Ayers to "Dreams" is the repeated use of maritime metaphors throughout both books, a testament to Ayers' anxious year as a merchant seaman.

There is, however, a deeper thread, namely a shared postmodernist perspective. A serious student of literature, Ayers has written thoughtfully on the role of the first person narrator in the construction of a memoir.

In true postmodernist fashion, Ayers rejects the possibility of an objective, universal truth. He argues instead that our lives are journeys with "narratives" we "construct" and, if we have the will and the power, impose on others.

Thus, "Fugitive Days" is laced with repeated reference to what Ayers calls "our constructed reality." So, curiously, is "Dreams."...

Of course, too, no one but Ayers got Obama named chair of the multi-million Chicago Annenberg Challenge months before his book was published, and no one else hosted his political debut months afterward, all in the magic year of 1995.

Two years later, in his 1997 book, "A Kind and Just Parent," Bill Ayers walks the reader through his Hyde Park neighborhood and identifies the celebrities therein.

These include Muhammad Ali, "Minister" Louis Farrakhan, the "poet" Gwendolyn Brooks and "writer" Barack Obama.

The "writer" identification seems as forced as the listing of Obama among the notables. It is almost as Ayers were constructing his own narrative, one designed to climax in the White House, one that he may have the will and power to impose on America, truth be damned.
While you are at it you can explain why the [sure they're unbiased] MSM love to quote Marilyn Katz, former security chief for the SDS, Obama fundraising bundler, strategist and public relations maven when they need a quote minimizing Obama's radical past and ties.
 
632boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 11:50
over heard comments at the while walking past tailgaters at the LSU/UF game this past weekend:

[referring to Obama]"he is only 1/6 black, he is ethnically an Arab and a muslim... he is even a socialist...."

i guess some people are buying what boldwin is selling.
 
633Perm Dude
      ID: 169101214
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 11:50
Not even worth responding to. Anyone who puts quotes around the word poet when talking about Gwen Brooks is seriously unhinged.
 
634sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 11:52
the unfortunate truth boikin, far too many people are buying what Boldwin is selling.
 
635bibA
      ID: 16954615
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 13:02
So Baldwin, if I get this straight, you believe that several months/years ago, Obama decided to wreck the economy of the world. He did this so that he would be able to win the presidency of the US.

IF this were true, one would have to believe that this guy is some powerful motha. IF he had such power, I am left to believe that you are one brave soul, as he obviously has the ability to identify you, and of course he has such a lack of any decency as to have you taken out at the snap of his fingers.

Maybe you should be very worried. Hope you are constantly looking over your shoulders.
 
636Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 13:14
Obama decided to wreck the economy

It is giving liberals too much credit to assume they care if their ideas work but who knows? Maybe he believes marxism works.

What is beyond dispute is that forcing Fannie Mae and banks in general to make unsound loans is what is bringing the world's economy to it's knees...

...and that Obama spent the bulk of his life forcing banks to make unsound loans.

You do the math.
 
637Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 13:47
What is beyond dispute is that forcing Fannie Mae and banks in general to make unsound loans is what is bringing the world's economy to it's knees...

...and that Obama spent the bulk of his life forcing banks to make unsound loans.


What do you mean it's not in dispute? Where is your evidence of Fannie Mae or banks in general being forced? It's a claim, not a fact, just like
this.

ACORN filed tons of these lawsuits and ALL of them allege racism.

Then they post the suit I did in #626. No other lawsuit is specified. If there are tons, let's see a list. This is the instant information era. How stupid do you think people are? We know your prowess at digging up pertinent information if you are passionate about an issue. Yet you continue to try and BS your way through this one as if you'd actually discovered something besides a right wing blogosphere completely disconnected with honest evaluation.

Obama spent the bulk of his life forcing banks to make unsound loans.

You do the math.


I did the math. I found one suit where Obama was involved in a class action against Citibank. In your world I guess 1=tons.
 
638Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 14:19
I don't really want to be involved in the "Obama's Puppet Masters manipulated the economy for 30 years so that he could be elected president and make America a Marxist Paradise" debate - that's for people who believe that 09/11 was an inside job for The Oil to debate - you know - above my pay grade - but

a sucessfully settled class action suit against C, even standing alone, is a much bigger deal than "just one suit" It would be industry shaping of itsself.
 
639Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 15:36
a sucessfully settled class action suit against C, even standing alone, is a much bigger deal than "just one suit" It would be industry shaping of itsself.

So, if I comprehending this correctly, banks and mortgage companies reacted to one lawsuit settled in Chicago on behalf of a tiny minority to fundamentally alter the way home loans were approved for all Americans in all regions, regardless of minority populations, regardless of an ACORN presence and regardless of economic status. The banks decided that since they were forced to loan a minority couple making 25 grand a year for a 100 grand home in Chicago, they were obligated to loan a white couple making 100 grand a year enough for a million dollar home in Winnetka.

I wonder why we've only heard this plausible explanation from the rabid right wing blogosphere and not from any financial and economic experts who have closely followed his issue for decades.



 
640sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 17:41
The legal action(s) was not to "force banks to make bad loans", it was to force banks to make loans based on credit worthiness and NOT race/gender/marital status etc.

20 years ago or so, it was not unusual for there to be notes on loan docs in a banks file...single woman, may get pregnant. And other far less flattering entries. Those actions, were to put an end to such practices. They did not, and were not designed/intended, to force banks to make loans to those with no demonstrated ability/willingness to repay.

From another forum where this very allegation has been raised, and responded to by a Credit Union President with over 30 years in the industry:

I know that the far right talk show hosts have been busy blaming anything and anyone other than w for the current mess but before we consign the CRA to hell you need to have a little background:

Prior to the CRA (and Regulations B, E, & Z) lenders took care of themselves at the expense of everyone else. The very first bank I worked for had a vault full of older loan files that I spent a month cleaning out. The loan jackets and credit reports were full of comments based on race, ethnicity, religion, and neighborhoods. Nothing about the person's ability to pay or his history. Also included were comments on the likelihood of a woman to have kids and stop working. This was especially true if the person happened to be Catholic. It seems shocking that loans were judged by these criteria onlu such a short time ago.

The free market only works to a point. Without regulation you will go back to a period of Robber Barons such as we had at the beginning of the 20th century.


shamelessly copy/pasted
 
641bibA
      ID: 479311318
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 19:37
The DOW went up 936 today, NASDAQ 194, S&P 104.

I guess either Obama is taking pity on us, or maybe he was in a stupified trance today.
 
642Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Mon, Oct 13, 2008, 22:15
it was to force banks to make loans based on credit worthiness and NOT race/gender/marital status etc.
- Sarge

Again you are just not following along. It has been shown on this forum that banks were even instructed to accept unemployment checks as proof of ability to pay.

Quit while you are behind, Sarge, or catch up on reading the board.
 
643sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:08
income is income. An unemployment check, is still income and cash flow. (It could be argued that its temporary, but in most states; so is your job.)
 
644Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:17
An unemployment check, is still income and cash flow - Sarge

And that is why we are in this mess. Liberals like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and Obama can say idiotic stuff like that with a straight face.
 
645Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:18
Not to mention that it's a great idea to give home loans to 5 million illegal aliens.

In what logical world does that make sense?
 
646Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:22
"You could be deported tomorrow but yer a great credit risk to pay off this loan." OMG how stupid are liberals anyway?
 
647Perm Dude
      ID: 169101214
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:35
You know, I don't say this about everyone. But Baldwin, desperation *does* become you.
 
648Perm Dude
      ID: 169101214
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:37
Baldwin on vacation:

 
649Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:39
Desperation will be trying to claim Obama pulled us out of Great Depression II when he really created and exacerbated it. Pretty safe bet you'll be doin that dance.
 
650Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:40
LOL

Very funny but I don't even own a bumper sticker let alone a political sign.
 
651Perm Dude
      ID: 169101214
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 00:41
Damn, forgot to end my post with "Queue Baldwin's pithy yet unhinged response involving Obama doing something he couldn't possibly have done."

 
652walk
      ID: 559391320
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 08:23
Man, that sign, and the fact that folks actually think this way, is disturbing...
 
653sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 10:39
somewhat belies, on case-by-case basis obviously, MBJs statement in another thread, that Christians have independent thought beyond the religious dogma they get spoon-fed.

NOT, a universal criticism. As I said, on a case-by-case basis. In my eyes however, there are FAR too many people like the moron in that picture.
 
654Perm Dude
      ID: 11935149
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 10:52
Sarge: That "dogma" is to love your neighbor, treat others with respect, fight for the right to life, live through example, and to turn the other cheek.

Yeah, some people pervert it, or inject their form of this in areas they shouldn't. But the vast, vast majority of Americans consider themselves Christians. Clearly the vast majority of American's aren't the robots of "spoon-fed" dogma.
 
655Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 11:11
Man, that sign, and the fact that folks actually think this way, is disturbing...

you post on a message board with one of those people. you're actually surprised suddenly?

But the vast, vast majority of Americans consider themselves Christians.

this is a good point. i have many, many friends who consider themselves Christians. a good deal of them go to church every sunday. some of them (including one of my closest friends, who converted *from* judaism), hold bible readings/study sessions in their homes.

and to a person, they are upset with how Christians like Baldwin or the guy with the sign above, or those who inject their whole "believe my way, or go to hell" mantras into daily/political life, have basically "stolen" their religion and co-opted and corrupted it to a point where non-christians believe that ALL christians hold such whacked out beliefs.

 
656sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 11:29
understood PD, but one cannot deny that in the case of people like that fella in the picture, they are indeed eating that dogma, then perverting it, then spreading it like manure across a field.

As I said above, on case-by-case basis. I tried to stress that, to avoid implying a universal condemnation.

However on further reflection, I sort of agree with the guy. I too dont want a "baby murdering Muslim" in the WH. Or a baby-murdering Jew", or " baby-murdering Christian". Good thing, there isnt a "baby murdering Muslim" even RUNNING for the Presidency.
 
657Perm Dude
      ID: 11935149
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 11:38
one cannot deny that in the case of people...

Absolutely. But, like a lot of things, you can't let the wackos stand for the whole.
 
658Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 13:07
this is so hard to take seriously...but, considering some of the posts on this board...

 
659Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 13:31
She's a Hillary girl.
 
660Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 13:56
sarge33rd: income is income. An unemployment check, is still income and cash flow. (It could be argued that its temporary, but in most states; so is your job.)

There is no argument about it. Unemployment pay is temporary...6-9 months or so. You think it is a sound business practice to make a 15 or 30 year loan based on someone's unemployment check?

Myboyjack: I don't really want to be involved in the "Obama's Puppet Masters manipulated the economy for 30 years so that he could be elected president and make America a Marxist Paradise" debate - that's for people who believe that 09/11 was an inside job for The Oil to debate

Hey, don't lump the 911 truth crowd in with that group.
 
661sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:07
that somewhat depends B7, on the circumstances surrounding the unemployed status. Is it a career individual with a 10+ yr work history in an industry with reasonably good forecasts of employment in the too distant future? Then, yes. OTH, is it a job-hopper with a 10 yr history of a series of 1 yr jobs? In that case...prolly not. Also, in the upper midwest, virtually ALL construction workers start drawing unemployment every yr long about NOV and continue thru maybe MAR. Then, the season allows them to go back to work. So it really isnt a yes/no question which can be intelligently answered via a yes/no response. There are "mitigating circumstances" which may indeed warrant granting that loan.
 
662Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:49
I'll give you the construction worker argument. If you can prove that is all they were refering to I'd put one up in Sarge's column.
 
663DWetzel at library
      ID: 49201413
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:50
"Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:49"

Write it down, kids. Write it down.
 
664Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 14:55
Bold the 'if' clause.
 
665sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 15:03
Farm workers are also seasonal Boldy. Point is, making the credit decision on gender basis, on race basis, on religious basis...is what that legal action was to fight. It was NOT to 'force' a bank to extend a loan to someone with no demonstrable ability/willingness to repay.
 
666Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 21:09
If you had been following along you would have read how bad the standards were. It is not for nothing the the industry itself refers to them as liar loans and no documentation loans.
 
667Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 21:37
SZ of course will love this but Obama isn't usually so upfront about his marxism, so obviously he isn't so confident everyone else is comfortable with it and would vote for it.
 
668sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 21:39
ACORN most certainly was not the originator of those 'stated income' loans. Or those absurd Interest Only loans which we pretty much universally bashed on these very forums a few years ago.
 
669Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 21:42
Obama will not be stating this in Florida, I can safely predict.
 
670Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 21:44
Of course Acorn doesn't originate loans. They send a rent-a-mob to the lobby of the bank and the front yard of the officers of the bank and force them to make those loans.
 
671Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 21:46
And ARM's haven't been the main focus of the Fannie Mae crisis. It's the virtually complete lack of standards in handing them out.
 
672sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 21:49
No Boldwinb...ACORN did not create the 'stated income' loans, nor did they create the IO loans, nor did they FORCE any bank to extend stupid loans. Bankers GREED is what created and forced those developments. The same stupid, unregulated greed, which led to the farm foreclosures in the mid 80s.
 
673Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 23:09
No sense arguing with your preconceived, unresearched and utterly wrong view.
 
674Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Tue, Oct 14, 2008, 23:31
Does this resonate with you, Baldy?



Yup, I think it does.
 
675Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 00:09
Somehow, this must be tied to ACORN.

Regulators on Friday shut down Silver State Bank, saying the Nevada bank failed because of losses on soured loans, mainly in commercial real estate and land development.

It was the 11th failure this year of a federally insured bank.

Nevada regulators closed Silver State and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. was appointed receiver of the bank, based in Henderson, Nev. It had $2 billion in assets and $1.7 billion in deposits as of June 30.

Andrew K. McCain, a son of Republican presidential nominee John McCain, sat on the boards of Silver State Bank and of its parent, Silver State Bancorp, starting in February but resigned in July citing "personal reasons," corporate filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission show. Andrew McCain also was a member of the bank's audit committee, responsible for oversight of the company's accounting.


Of course the liberal media left out the part where Obama directed mobs to force McCain's son to make bad loans, mainly in commercial real estate and land development.
 
676Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 04:25
Banks in real estate bubble land [the most severely inflated] are no doubt hardest hit. I'm surprised you didn't tie this to the Bush relative caught in the S&L fiasco way back.
 
677Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 05:08
Silver State, Silverado...having a beautiful mind, I love coincidences of course. 8]
 
678Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 08:05
I'm surprised you didn't tie this to the Bush relative caught in the S&L fiasco way back.

Why? It's never been my position that the current crisis can be laid at the feet of Republicans in general or Bush in particular. My position is that there are numerous reasons for the meltdown and numerous villians, left, right and center.

It is you who have taken he absolutist position that

>Obama and ACORN are responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis

>Democrats have destroyed the Western financial system

>trying to claim Obama pulled us out of Great Depression II when he really created and exacerbated it.



 
679Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 08:38
great cartoon, SZ. i especially love the first panel, and the whole thing strikes me as the sort of thing old school Mad Magazine would have published in covering this particular election.

btw, Mad magazine is also part of this whole conspiracy to get Obama elected.

i'm pretty sure that he must have read an issue or two, and some arabs have probably read an issue or two, so clearly, mad magazine is a manifesto for world take over, directed covertly by Barack Hussein Obama...
 
680walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 09:45
When you see and read interviews with voter-folks who are anti-Obama, that cartoon really seems to sum up a lot of the anti-Obama sentiment. So scary, yet unfortunately, so real.
 
681sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 10:30
from 675 above:

Somehow, this must be tied to ACORN.

Regulators on Friday shut down Silver State Bank, saying the Nevada bank failed because of losses on soured loans, mainly in commercial real estate and land development.

It was the 11th failure this year of a federally insured bank.

Nevada regulators closed Silver State and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. was appointed receiver of the bank, based in Henderson, Nev. It had $2 billion in assets and $1.7 billion in deposits as of June 30.

Andrew K. McCain, a son of Republican presidential nominee John McCain, sat on the boards of Silver State Bank and of its parent, Silver State Bancorp, starting in February but resigned in July citing "personal reasons," corporate filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission show. Andrew McCain also was a member of the bank's audit committee, responsible for oversight of the company's accounting.

Of course the liberal media left out the part where Obama directed mobs to force McCain's son to make bad loans, mainly in commercial real estate and land development to poor, unemployed, illegal immigrants.


C'mon PV...you forgot that italicized part.

:)
 
682Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 10:51
When you see and read interviews with voter-folks who are anti-Obama, that cartoon really seems to sum up a lot of the anti-Obama sentiment. So scary, yet unfortunately, so real.

America is full of dummies, walk. President Bush still has a 30% approval rating. That's not a "30% better than Kerry or Gore would have been" rating, but people actually approve of the job is doing and has done. That just tells me that right off the bat, 30% of Americans are either intellectually incapable of determining what makes a good President, pay absolutely no attention to anything or both.
 
683Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 15:25
I wasn't going to, but perhaps I should pick that comic apart.

Clockwise from the top...

1) insultingly implies Obama opponents fear blacks date raping their daughters when they go off to college. Ridiculous and execrable uncalled for insult which only feeds into leftist's dogma that all opposition is based on racism.

Other than that, she went looking, nay insisting on dating 'blacks only', in college so it is what it is. But not date rape nor anything intrinsically wrong just a thing that makes you go 'hmmm'. It does reveal the level of her ideological indoctrination in view of the times.

next

"spent his childhood in a muslim country"

I haven't tracked how much time he spent in a muslim country growing up but I do know muslim radicals are abducting and cutting off the heads of missionaries in Indonesia where he attended madrassa.

I know he volunteered to take the extraordinary step of learning the Koran in the original language, something not every muslim child did in that madrassa. Since it was in his youth who knows what that means to him today. That's anyone's guess.

I know that he's still a close ally of Khalid al-Mansour.

I don't know who will be in Obama's official cabinet but I believe Ayers and Khalid al-Mansour will feature prominantly in Obama's actual 'kitchen cabinet'.

next

"[Hawaii] living his teen years..."

Don't know about his drug use other than rumors which would be typical for anyone leaning left back in his day.

Conservatives are far more concerned by his own admitted early influence in those days of 'Frank' who he refused to be very specific about in his careful presidential resume/book but who turned out to be noted communist luminary Frank Marshall Davis.

next

"fell under the spell of an America hating preacher and a notorious domestic terrorist."

Yeah, so? There is anything factually untrue with that statement? Other than, 'found his kindred spirits', replacing 'came under the spell of'?

next

"silver tongued...doesn't share your values...666"

Frank Marshall Davis doesn't share my values. Ayers doesn't, Wright doesn't, Khalid al-Mansour doesn't share my values, Obama doesn't share my values.

While the anti-christ is a composite figure representing many individuals throughout history and into the near future, it's really hard to ignore the 'good fortune' which allows someone so intimately involved in creating the subprime mortgage mess being handed the keys to managing the wreckage. That is extraordinary...

next

"he's the one...McCain's shame"

There's prolly a good thread's worth of material in the quasi-messianic nature of Obama's campaign, more than I can address here.

McCain was unusually pusillanimous until Palin reminded the hero of hanoi hilton, that he still has a set.
 
684Perm Dude
      ID: 159361515
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 16:41
I guess satire is only something that Ann Coulter apologists use as a shield rather than something you'd find, here and there, in politics, eh? Unlike porn, you don't recognize it when you see it?
 
685Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 17:15
Satire is beneficial if it illuminates a truth and unhelpful [and much less funny] when it perpetuates disinformation.

Therefore the criterion is the truthfulness underlying message.
 
686Perm Dude
      ID: 159361515
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 17:24
Now you are basing whether something is satire if it is "beneficial?"

LOL!

Why not just admit you didn't realize it was satirical and move on?
 
687walk
      ID: 559391320
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 19:38
You picked apart a political cartoon? That is really funny!
 
688Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 20:14
I refuse to let you believe in the flawed premises behind that satire. Obama opponents have real reservations based on the influences that make him who he is and how he ticks.
 
689walk
      ID: 559391320
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 20:53
I think that's the issue, is that the election, as important as it is, is hardly at all, from the republicans, about issues, and it should be. Sure, one should also be concerned about a candidate's leadership capabilities, but this bull about influences and what makes him tick is just that, bull. Obama came from a different life than most white rich folk like McCain. Deal with the differences. Or, talk about what you really think could be the real and feasible consequences of those influences, and not some fear-based mumbo-gumbo that has been the highlight of "he's not like us."

Brooks, Collins: Campaigns -- talk about the issues
 
690Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 22:10
Its more about the principles behind his wishlist. Do they work in real life or are they proven losers.

Wealth redistribution, radical greens, globalist flavored trendy ideas, guys who call Isreal apartheid, borrowing money to hand out to other countries, he pretty much loves every bad idea littering the landscape.
 
691Razor
      ID: 418502723
      Wed, Oct 15, 2008, 23:18
Obama opponents have real reservations based on the influences that make him who he is and how he ticks.

Your real reservations about Obama are about as real as Santa Claus. Madrassas? Kindred spirits? Obama responsible for the mortgage crisis? LOL.

You can keep on preaching these absurdities well into Obama's first term if it makes you feel better.
 
692Perm Dude
      ID: 159361515
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 00:16
McCain's newest talking points to Baldwin: "Keep asking Obama for more details on his associates--we don't have enough dirt!"

borrowing money to hand out to other countries...

Like Bush isn't doing that right now?

Love the Israel = apartheid note. One day you'll get an association right. This is like calling Guru a Coulter lover because you keep posting here.
 
693Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 10:10
Ask Khalid al-Mansour.

Obama does.
 
694walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 10:23
#692, guru & coulter analogy...LOL.

I think the wealth redistribution notion and other real policy issues are all fair game...however, some of the nonsense as well as the very loose associations with Ayers and ACORN are bull. I really disliked the way McCain tried to hammer those assocations while literally in the next breath said: "...but my campaign is only focusing on the economy." (paraphrasing)
 
695Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 11:49
Ask Khalid al-Mansour.

Obama does.


Baldwin - i'm going to quote the first paragraph of an entry in Wikipedia.

Jehovah's Witnesses have experienced controversy in their relationships with mainstream Christianity, governments, former members, and the general public. They or their representatives have been accused of heresy, racism, child neglect, doctrinal inconsistency and reversals, sedition, double standards, hypocrisy, mistranslation of the Bible, anti-Semitism, self-aggrandising, intolerant religious views, failure to support their own members, making false predictions, poor treatment of former members, having a high rate of mentally ill devotees, brainwashing, interference in family affairs, failure to report cases of sexual abuse to the authorities, and insistence on an unduly restrictive lifestyle.

seems to me, your "standard" is that if you believe it to be so. so, i guess, if anyone believes the above to be true, it is?
 
696Perm Dude
      ID: 41935169
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 11:49

FactCheck.org takes on the ACORN allegations:

It's true that the voter registration wing of the Association of Community Organizers for Reform Now has run into trouble in several states. ACORN employees have been investigated and in some cases indicted for voter registration fraud. Most recently, more than 2,000 registrations in Lake County, Ind., have turned out to be falsified.

But does this constitute "destroying the fabric of democracy"? More like destroying the fabric of work ethic. There's been no evidence that the ACORN employees who submitted fraudulent forms have been paving the way for illegal voting. Rather, they're trying to get paid for doing no work.

 
697walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 12:21
Unfortunately, the masses will not see the lack of work ethic motivation...they will hear, over and over, the "voter fraud allegation," and maybe continued links to the Obama campaign. Politically speaking, this is not good for Obama, even though it's not his or his campaign's doing.
 
698Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 18:04
I'm not presenting things to be taken on faith. I think the weight of seriously radical influences is conclusive evidence that he's a radical. Where's the evidence he's a bird of another feather flying with a flock whose radicalism he does not share?
 
699Perm Dude
      ID: 41935169
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 19:01
How about his speeches, writings, and legislative history? You know: His actual work output.
 
700walk
      ID: 559391320
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 22:04
I think the term "radical" is too often used, and used very inaccurately. Obama, IMO, is far less radical a liberal than Bush/Cheney are radical conservatives. It's projective spin.
 
701Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 23:25
Would you say that a domestic terrorist giving an interview after 9/11 standing on a flag, saying he wished he had planted more bombs, qualifies as a radical? I'm not stretching a bit ya' think?
 
702biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 23:35
I frickin' wish. I hope and pray. That Obama were radical.

He ain't. He's boring. Middle of the road. Maybe even a touch conservative, if that work held the meaning it held 20 years ago.

You really need to find a bit more than sitting on a couple of the same boards (along with a number of conservative republican lawmakers) and sharing a coffee to make me confuse Obama with Ayers, Boldwin. Until you find something legitimate, you are just sleezing with jizz with dead wigglers, Boldwin. No purchase. And makes you look silly and, um.. ineffectually radical.
 
703lefty right
      ID: 31910170
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 01:32
I came to this message board on an invite to view, and what I found was the same thing with the GOP support. Fact twisting,diversion from the real issues, standard GOP talking points, and basically party line hate filled anti-Obama b.s. His plitics are more grounded than the McCain platform which is more like an unmanned boat floating aimlessly on a sea of mud, which it's so easy to reach over the side, grab a hand full and sling. Atre all GOP supporters talking head clones?
 
704Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 02:03
I'm curious how anyone thinks that identifying Obama's intellectual influences counts for mudslinging? If Richard Pearl is a Straussian, it's very very significant. If Palin is heavily influenced by Reagan it would be very very significant. If a Republican's biggest personal influence was the Rockafeller family, I'd sure want to know about it.

If your greatest influences are such that identifying them counts for mudslinging, there must be something significant and disturbing about them.
 
705Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 08:34
The problem is that you have not proven who Obama's biggest influences are. There is this thing called logic that seems strangely absent from all of your arguments these days.
 
706Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 09:25
Isn't Obama the biggest liberal voter in the Senate by some outfit that keeps track of that stuff?
 
707biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 10:14
Depends on the outfit. The only analysis I've read showed Obama near the center of the Dems and McCain out in wingnut land.
 
708Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 10:15
Razor

Of course I have. You were to busy not reading my posts, singing 'lalalalalah', dodging them, etc.
 
709Perm Dude
      ID: 41935169
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 10:36
B7: The last year he was #1 (of course, he didn't vote on a lot of measures so take that as you will). Previous to that he was not and he is not overall in his time in the Senate.
 
710Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 11:01
Boldwin, your standards for proof are, quite obviously, much lower than most. Mere meetings between people does not indicate influence. Heck, how do you know the influence didn't go the other way? Maybe the Weathermen are angry at Ayers because Obama has extered too much influence on him and convinced him to be an upstanding citizen instead of terrorist. Did you ever think about that?
 
711Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 12:08
Did you ever think about that?

there's not a coin in Baldwin's pocket that has a second side.
 
712walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 12:43
#710. Razor, very good. The inferences folks draw from such little data are amazing. Same thing with Rev. Wright. I guess McCain's much greater interaction with G. Gordon Liddy means...whatEVER!
 
713Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 21:41
All this denial of the obvious. Just be honest for once.

Just admit you secretly respect Ayers' terrorist past, would love to see marxist radicals take over the rest of America's institutions, believe in wealth redistribution.
 
714Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 22:19
My other project, decoding the silver tongue...

Lakoff

Axelrod
 
715biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Oct 17, 2008, 22:53
I do believe in wealth redistribution as any serious, compassionate, sensible citizen should.

The rich have the whole system stacked in their favor. They just get richer and richer if you let 'em. And usually even if you don't.


Blowing things up? Not so much.
 
716Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 09:19
If only there were unselfish, compassionate, sensible, uncorruptible people to play your Robbinhood role.

Unfortunately whenever marxism has been tried it hasn't worked out anything like that.
 
717biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 09:38
I'm not talking Marxism, I'm talking sensible taxation. And it's worked just fine during many democratic administrations and congresses over the last 100 years. The rich got richer, the country got richer, and the poor didn't get poorer. Imagine that.
 
718Perm Dude
      ID: 189181713
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 09:46
It is ironic that tax rates agreed to by Republicans just 8 years ago is now assailed as "Marxism." Was Newt Gingrich a Marxist?

Meanwhile, McCain calls Obama's refundable tax credits "welfare" while calling his own "reform."
 
719biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 09:46
Ranking the presidents on real economic growth:


1. FDR
2. LBJ
3. JFK
4. Clinton
5. Reagan
6. Carter
7. Nixon
8. Ike
10. GW (that's 10 so far – don't be surprised if he sinks further into the mire)
11. Ford
12. Bush Sr.
13. Truman
14. Hoover
 
720Perm Dude
      ID: 189181713
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 14:28
Obama Tax Cut Calculator
 
721Perm Dude
      ID: 189181713
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 14:41
#706: FactCheck.org takes on the "most liberal" rating
 
722DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Oct 18, 2008, 23:20
719: Interesting list. Who was ninth?
 
723Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Sun, Oct 19, 2008, 12:38


This is the size of crowd that a future "leader of the free world" draws. Man, I'm looking forward to Nov. 4th!
 
724Perm Dude
      ID: 21940198
      Sun, Oct 19, 2008, 14:57
General Powell endorses Obama
 
725Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 16:12
McCain targets liberals in sharpened stump speech

...The sharper remarks and tone came as McCain appeared before a weekday crowd of 2,000 in this suburb north of St. Louis, where Obama drew 100,000 on Saturday.

that rhetoric sure is working for McCain...
 
726walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 17:34
That is so funny. 2,000 to 100,000. If McCain wins this election, it's rigged.

Seriously, I am a little worried. We clearly unfortunately have two countries, with two very distinct poli views, with little overlap. I cannot believe a potentially transformational figure like Obama is not up by 20 points in the polls. I think that our country, as a whole, is really wed to the status quo and really concerned about their personal wealth with fears of Obama making everyone love everyone else of the same gender while giving all of their money away. I read where people have said they cannot vote for Obama cos of the latest McCain sentiments that "he's a socialist." As if the bank bailouts are not a form of socialism? I almost look at this way: why candidate has truly tried to create a platform of unity and which campaign has continued to make comments that express an us vs. them? ("who is barack obama?") It's not even close. People are so afraid. I am too, of somehow Obama losing.

I hope the youth do what they do to get tix to concerts and football games, camp out overnight to vote.
 
727boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 17:52
I cannot believe a potentially transformational figure like Obama is not up by 20 points in the polls. maybe people realize that it does not matter. im sorry but i really doubt there is going to be any transformation going on. my question is how is disappointment going to get spun in the coming years when the great change does not happen? I guess they will be blaming W.
 
728Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 18:36
The transformation is going to be packing the courts and the permanent government burocracy with people so radical that they originated in the weathermen underground, or their children.
 
729Tree
      ID: 389152019
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 20:21
The transformation is going to be packing the courts and the permanent government burocracy with people so radical that they originated in the weathermen underground, or their children.

without question, there is no one on this board more radical than you Baldwin, and i feel pretty comfortable that Obama wont be appointing anyone with your hate-mongering and tiny little beliefs.

heck, your latest masturbatory-tour-de-force, Sarah Palin, is far, far more radical than Barack Obama.
 
730Perm Dude
      ID: 109562010
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 20:59
It's worth tuning in just to see if Baldwin can top himself. So, The Weathermen (who were domestic terrorists who bombed government things) will be the norm for the courts and the goverment, who apparently will be kept busy bombing, well, themselves.

All this because Republicans, who have enjoyed an administration which bloated government, started two simultaneous and ineffective wars, frightened people into granting it the power to hold US citizens without due process and to torture them, to spy on its own citizens without warrant, and to generally act like the thugs people like Baldwin are worried the Democrats will turn into, is, in fact, on the verge of being turned out of office rather forcefully in a free nationwide election.

Hmmm.
 
731Boldwin
      ID: 44916136
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 22:00
We're still limping along with Carter appointees screwing up the burocracy. The stench lingers.
 
732Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Mon, Oct 20, 2008, 23:28
welcome to 2009 Baldwin. how are the 70s treating you?

i like you blaming Carter for all of Bush's mistakes. guess you can't accept all that blood on your hands.
 
733Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Tue, Oct 21, 2008, 04:03
How does one accord Tree human dignity? Did I say Carter appointees were responsible for every act of the Bush years? Does the fact that appointees to the the burocracy usually outlast their first administration seem too difficult to grasp? And Bush didn't win because of my vote considering I didn't.
 
734Perm Dude
      ID: 109562010
      Tue, Oct 21, 2008, 08:38
And Bush didn't win because of my vote considering I didn't.

This is a wash, of course. So you have to consider other ways you supported him (such as on these boards)--doing whatever you could (aside from casting a vote) to direct support to Bush.

You can't walk away from your Bush apologetics by pointing to some mythic retirement-age Carter appointees and the fact that you couldn't consumate your full-throated support for Bush by voting.
 
735biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Oct 21, 2008, 08:47
Careful, PD. Soon we'll be seeing his claim "I'm not of this earth", and then we'll lose him 6 months of mystical introspection; silently struggling with his flesh's existence in the ether.
 
736Tree
      ID: 13714198
      Tue, Oct 21, 2008, 10:48
And Bush didn't win because of my vote considering I didn't.

perhaps not. but you've supported him and his cronies, and defending nearly everything they've done.
 
737walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 13:54
NYT, Kristof: Obama Abroad

The real, real Obama.
 
738 wizardburger
      ID: 559562416
      Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 18:07
This has been an interesting board with quite a bit of the truth from BOTH sides. Let me say that I had been a republican of the likes of the first term of Nixon and 1 1/2 terms of Reagan. Both ended up screwing up after doing great things early on...a shame.

Then came Bush SR...didn't impress me much.

Then came Clinton...and NOBODY can deny that almost everybody did well for those 8 years...but just like my man Reagan...he ended it screwing up. By the way, under his tax plan, making middle class wages at my 23 year long union job, I paid $20.19 a month more than under Bush JR and his big lie of a tax break for the middle class...but had police and firemen available, the roads were paved and ALL my neighbors had jobs...

Then came Bush JR....won't even go there...I am too busy training my Pakistani replacement to take over my job and don't have the time or desire to spend any words on his 2 terms...(actually I retired)...lets just say I didn't register republican after him any more.

Now it's Obama or McCain....

John, I am sure is a good man. A real, genuine war hero...but who changes his mind more than Kerry ever did and, frankly, seems out of touch with "Joe sixpack" when he claims the middle class is "people making less than $5 million a year"...and Palin, who supported the bridge to nowhere, talking about weeding out the waste of our tax dollars while wearing her $150,000 new wardrobe that, once the race is over, will donate to charity...calling Obama a socialist while sharing the oil profits with each and every Alaskan like it was a co-op (a trully socialist practice if I ever saw one...nothing wrong with her giving back the profits...but while practicing socialism in your state, don't use it as a dirty word directed at someone else, you just make you and your party look stupid). And while we are at it, she can get off of the twist they have done with Joe the plumber...he makes $40,000 a year, can't afford to buy a $250,000 business and was too naive to understand that BUYING a business for $250,000 doesn't mean you MAKE $250,000 and his taxes would NOT have gone up under Obama...way to do the Sean Hannity Spin on that one...FOX really knows how to work the people who ONLY watch them for their one sided info...

And Barack...probably a good man too...an eloquent speaker...but his past ties worry me for real and his experience (like Palin's) is not enough for me to feel comfortable with...at least Biden has some experience to bring to the table.

I am of an age (in years) that I am not so naive or ignorant to see that BOTH sides have something to offer as far as party goes...I don't want higher taxes and support business as it creates jobs, less fed gov't interference in business and state decisions as the GOP USED to be. But I also believe in a certain amount of moral obligation to society, equality and the working man as dem's advocate for...

But face it...trickle down economics DOES NOT WORK when it is trickling down overseas and not at home...tax breaks should be for the ones who stay and create jobs....and no jobs is the biggest problem this country is facing...all else will feel better if the 2 million people out of work in this country could get back to work. How can you fix an economy with no jobs? And I do indeed blame this administration for that...and anybody defending this administration on that issue is in denial because they still have their job...wait till it's farmed out to overseas and only the shareholders are making money here in the US off of what they used to do for a living.

I don't like anybody who stands a chance of winning this time around (GOP or Dems)...and it's not a party or race or age thing. But I have come to the conclusion that:

We, as a country, don't make anything anymore...we trade paper... and the rich have had a tax break free ride driving this country into the ground in the name of profits at the expense of jobs for the middle class. We are a shrinking group...yet even the rich are now paying for their belief that the bubble would never burst and getting their de-regulation to the point a guy with a part time 7-11 job could get a loan on a $500,000 house...and what an idiot he was for taking that variable interest, baloon payment loan.

We need to be the country that manufactures again...here in the US..and it doesn't take a genius to see that the next big boom is in alternative forms of energy. Both parties are talking the talk about it...and have money they are willing to spend (our tax dollars) on it.

But I cannot help but feel that the GOP boys will hand that money over to big business who will take the manufacturing, sales, customer service jobs overseas and give the installation jobs here to undocumented illegal aliens rather than pay union wages here, and all the while keeep the tax breaks for doing so....while the Dems will dole it out at home creating jobs for tens of thousands of those/us who can get back to being "middle class" again.

I await the time when a viable Independant candidate steals the middle of the roaders from both parties and some common sense is finally brought back to the white house...the 2 party system is as old as this country...I am sure, that with the other improvements we have made in the Constitution, that improving HOW we elect a president to uphold it isn't out of line...and sorely due. The TRUE GOP died with the neo-conservatives and the TRUE Democratic party has been kidnapped by the ultra-liberals. I have nothing bad to say about conservatives OR liberals as they both have important issues and ideas...but either, in an extreme, is beyond insanity.

By the way, a little trivia...there has not been a Republican president elected without the name Nixon or Bush on the ticket since 1928...it's true.

 
739Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 18:18
The TRUE GOP died with the neo-conservatives and the TRUE Democratic party has been kidnapped by the ultra-liberals.

That pretty much sums it up. Common sense and the will of the public are ignored and skirted around. This board is a waste of time because in the end the power elite have it rigged. Politics is just a scam to get the public to legitimate someone else's policies.
 
740Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 20:54
Well here might be a reason for Republicans not to sit on their hands this election because they don't like McCain.
 
741bibA
      ID: 39412016
      Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 21:03
This board is a waste of time because in the end the power elite have it rigged.

YOU may feel this way. However, some of us come on it to hear varying views, and hopefully learn something. Wizardburger is, I am sure, not of the power elite. His post is about the finest I have read, and it would be nice to read more of his thoughts as they continue to evolve.
 
742sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Oct 24, 2008, 23:11
Charles Fried, Reagan Appointee and recent McCain Campaign Advisor...votes absentee for Obama-Biden

Unlike some, a man of principles.
 
743Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 01:36
Thanks for visiting, wizardburger, I enjoyed reading your post.
 
744sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 08:45
Allow me to echo that thought Zen. 738 was as honest and well written an expression of opinion, as I've seen in a long while.
 
745walk
      ID: 559391320
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 09:46
Word, wizardburger. Well said, personal post covering pro's and con's of both sides...
 
746 wizardburger
      ID: 559562416
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 22:16
As I sat at a BBQ this afternoon, enjoying this fine Oregon weather, my thoughts were sourly interupted by my good friend and loyal Bush/McCain supporter as he sat drinking beer and his young cousin and Obama loyalist sat smoking pot until both were loose (and stupid) enough to get around to discussing politics...I felt like my ears had been raped by two talking monkies.

While one is going on about how necessary the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is the other was screaming about how we need to get rid of the world bank and go back to an agrarian society, grow our own food and weave our clothes from hemp...

That soon turned to Obamas a muslim terrorist bent on destroying our country with his secret society of terrorist freinds and allies and that Palin is a genius....

Followed by the yelling of how our world is being run by the tri-lateral commission, black helicopters are everywhere and we still haven't been told the truth about Roswell and how our government was really behind bringing down the world trade center...

Idiots...and both have the legal right to vote.

Voting should be a priveledge, not a right. There should be a test given before you are allowed to register...at least the MMPI test (one given to evaluate ones mental state to rule out mental illness). If you cannot pass the test with at least a "C" then you are sent back to Gov't 101, Economics and World History class to bone up. Then you are REQUIRED to read up on ALL candidates from a pamphlet that talks about the REAL issues and how they stand on them that has all the lies, racism and bull*&%$ propoganda removed.

Yet, it is people like these that will decide who becomes president and, ergo, how I will have to live for at least 4 more years...people who have either spent their lives listening to Rush Limbaugh on their way to work and hurrying home to watch Sean Hannity and Bill Oreilly twist the truth on the issues to infuriate and scare the neo-conservatives into voting one way...

Or those who just came from a hemp rally bragging how they just signed a petition to stop the Gov't from putting dangerous, poisonous dihydrogen oxide in our water (this is NO LIE...his cousin was FURIOUS that the gov't was puting it in our water...till I informed him he had been made a fool of because dihydrogen oxide IS water).

People that will go along with anything they are told without ivestigating the facts and using common sense should not just be handed the right to vote. You have to take a test to get a drivers license, it should be the same thing to get a voting license...and everybody in this country should have the right to take the test to get a voting license.

I think, as I get older, that my tolerence for idiots grows shorter in a direct ratio to my age. I WANT to discuss politics...but with open minded, information laden people who know HOW to discuss issues without getting butt hurt and bring something to the table besides the rhetoric they heard from either Sean Hannity OR Timothy Leary.

NOBODY is always right...and that INCLUDES our candidates. There are more than two sides too ANY and ALL issues. NOTHING can just "be fixed"...it takes strong people with strong minds to find solutions to such complex problems as our growing world population, famine, global warming, alternative energy sources, creating jobs and a strong economy, healthcare, terrorism...no matter who gets elected I hope to god he surrounds himself with smarter people than Bush Jr did in making those decisions.

As I wrote in an earlier post, I do not like either candidate this time around...but I also believe that neither candidate will destroy this country...as long as they are at least smarter than Bush Jr was and fill their cabintet with people who have this countries best interest at heart rather than their own.

We, unfortunately, NEED to go back and forth between a GOP pres and a DEM pres in order to balance out the pendulum swinging too far in either direction. One lowers taxes and supports big business and builds our military/world strength...and just as that starts to hurt the middle class then comes along the other that supports workers and the majority of people in this country...taking care of things at home rather than just big business. One without the other for too long puts us in a bad place...we NEED a Reagan followed by a Clinton...this country was a better place for those 16 years than it had been and since then because of BOTH of them.

The problems we face today were created in the last 7 1/2 years by a man that coudn't run ANY business his daddy bought him without destroying it...it is not McCain's fault any more than it is Obama's. I am sure they are BOTH fine men...I just don't see either one being the leader that we need to get us out of the mess we are in ALONE...it is going to take a bunch of geniuses working together to fix what an idiot and his money hungry cronies created.

I hope that when either is elected they quit this partisan bull and get ideas from BOTH sides of the aisle...that they don't just think like a dem or repub...that they think like a common man to understand the needs of the common man.

Just one common mans thoughts...

 
747Astade
      ID: 29572120
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 22:28
wizardburger, I appreciate both of your posts in this thread and I hope that you continue to post on RotoGuru. I was struck by two immediate thoughts from your last post:

1.) It is nice to have some fresh insight from a new poster. I appreciate our group as it is, but new thoughts and opinions are helpful to spur further discourse.

2.) If our educational system improved perhaps we wouldn't need to require an MMPI test. An example off the top of my head; the people that got confused during the debates when the presidential candidates were talking about South Ossetia and didn't know how 'Georgia' factored into Russo-American relations.

 
748 wizardburger
      ID: 559562416
      Sat, Oct 25, 2008, 23:14
Thank you, I appreciate your comments...

Too true about our educational system...that alone is a subject that sure seems to be lacking in these presidential debates...and for many issues. One being the overcrowding, and the reason for overcrowding, in the classrooms.

In the 60's you could go to ANY state college in Calfornia and get a degree for free...as long as you worked hard, got good grades in high school and got accepted. No student loans, no $30,000 a year tuition...all paid for by our taxes...what happened to that? Just one of MANY things that are no longer....

When did it become okay to not be allowed to ask if you're an american citizen when enrolling kids in K-12 school? American tax dollars are paying for the kids educations...but you are not allowed to insure that the tax dollars are going to american citizens?

Don't get me wrong...I am all for ANYBODY coming to this country for a better life...it is how America became the great nation that it is. But the laws and rules to come here were enforced then and should be now. If you want to come here...stand in line, fill out the forms, wait your turn...and if you are a criminal or mentally ill (like Castro emptying his assylums and loading them on boats bound for Florida) you can't come here. Once here be a contributing member to our society...and I will welcome you with open arms and hope you are my neighbor and our kids have fun together.

But overcrowding our classrooms with illegal aliens is wrong and bankrupting our school systems...I am NOT saying it is the ONLY reason for overcrowded classromms, but it is certainly ONE of them.

Pay teachers the wage they deserve and earn dealing with a bunch of kids who don't want to be there. It is an honorable profession and deserves a living wage for doing it. If it had one more would be interested in becoming teachers.

Allocate the NECESSARY tax dollars for our schools like we used to...stop this school bond bull*&$# and making our kids pay for them in the future...

I have never had a problem payng my fair share of taxes as long as the money went to moraly honorable things. How about giving a free ride on tuition with tax dollars for people who go into professions like teachers...and maybe some other professions to. Better than for studying the mating habits of seals (like Palin got for Alaska) or for the study of the aboriginal sweat gland.

People talk about how they want to vote for a republican because they lower taxes....NO THEY DON'T...not for the common, middle class man...just for their rich peers and corporate shareholders making so much that they waste more on bull*&$# in a year than most working our factories, in our schools, as the police and firemen protecting them earn in a year...

I made EXACTLY to the penny each year under Clinton and under Bush Jr. I paid $20.19 more per month under Clinton...so where was the big tax break that Bush said he gave the middle class? I own my home, have 3 kids and made a strong middle class wage...so how is $20.19 a month ever supposed to sway ANYBODY to vote for somebody on that issue alone? And why do so many people buy into that rhetoric?

I was better off, we all were, under Clinton than Bush Jr...unless you were making CEO wages with golden parachute retirement plans with stock options...

The middle class drives this countries economy...their tax dollars support OUR issues and we should have them spent on OUR issues. And education is one of the issues that should be at the top.

 
749Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 02:16
Your points would all make sense if everything worked like a pendulum. Unfortunately introducing socialism works like a ratchet.
 
750Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 02:33
Further Bush didn't create this subprime mortgage mess. It had nothing to do with his business accumen.

Liberals found a way to temporarily give a house to anyone with a pulse. How was that Bush's fault? How was this the fault of the greedy rich? The rich don't give away money to people who cannot repay them, unless they are forced to.

Further the snowball was created before Clinton excelerated it so the gratuitous slap at Bush is nonsense.

quit this partisan bull and get ideas from BOTH sides of the aisle

We'll see how that bipartisan 'christmas tree' bailout works.
 
751Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 04:59
Wizard has one point though. I don't like either choice this year. The Marxist Obama or the MSM whore McCain who "knows nothing about the economy".
 
752Perm Dude
      ID: 0916267
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 09:17
Marxist? In what way, exactly?
 
753Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 09:58
And if I did post some things about that, would it REALLY change your mind about him?
 
754sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 10:16
why should your innuendo change our mind re Obama, when the truth hasnt changed yours?

Wizard...I applaud your intellectual honesty. Its unfortunate, that American politics has become the beast it has. I fear the 'citizen-statesman', is an extinct creature, and one we are in dire need of atm.
 
755Perm Dude
      ID: 0916267
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 10:18
#753: Would the truth change yours?

I don't think you have a good grasp of what marxist actually means. I think it is just a talking point for you, a context-free talking point.

pd
 
756Boldwin
      ID: 419402022
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 10:30
In the Bill Ayers, Frank Marshall Davis, Saul Alinski, Antonio Gramscian way exactly.
 
757Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 15:19
funny to see those on the left praising some moderate posts by a newcomer, while those on the right opt to attempt to tear him down.

really makes you not even wonder who are the more radical posters on this board, the ones furthest from the mainstream...
 
758Astade
      ID: 29572120
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 15:35
Tree, I don't see anyone attempting to tear him down...
 
759Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 17:02
astade - i should have been more specific. the posts by baldwin and boxman seem to try and drive WB's posts in a different direction.

instead of addressing the posts, it's more of the same "marxism", "socialism", "terrorism", and "communism" type of nonsense they've been spewing for months.

it's as if his post means nothing (see Baldwin's 749, for example) because they really don't care what he has to say, because of all their love of all things "ism"...
 
760 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 18:04
Can't seem to post...it says it is posting but then nothing
 
761 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 18:05
Interesting Boldwin....not true...but, then again, I love a debate, so...

1. De-regulation is what ALLOWED for lenders to give loans to those with a 520 FICO score, get 80% firsts with 20% seconds. If that same man with a part time 7-11 job had walked into a bank 8 years ago or more he would have been turned down for the same loan because he would not have qualified.

2. It was NOT the liberals that "found a way" to give a house loan to "anybody with a pulse"...it was the banking industry lobbying the conservatives who FAVOR de-regulation FOR de-regulation...yes, logically, it makes sense that nobody would give a loan to somebody who couldn't re-pay it. But you have to understand that the middle men, mortgage brokers, are the ones who, through de-regulation, were able to secure the loans and make a fortune whether the loans EVER got repaid or not...the banks then in turn sold those loans in blocks to larger banks, who in turn sold them in larger blocks to bigger banks...And yes it was the greedy rich making money off of loans, and thinking the bubble wouldn't burst, that pushed it as far as it went. You don't think all those ads on tv for Lending Tree and others were banks trying to sell you a loan do you? They were large mortgage brokers making money off of every loan they pushed through...good or bad loans. The greedy rich being the large banks...thus their share holders, eagerly bought those blocks of loans seeing $ signs. Even Reagan knew to not go so far as Bush in de-regulation of lending laws/guidlines. And Clinton actually STIFFENED them. Now I am not taking the blame away from the morons who took out loans they should not have...but a lot of the people hurting right now had long standing jobs when they took loans, and only after losing their jobs (another blame I give to Bush and his tax breaks to move businesses overseas) did it become a problem...the blame can be handed out all over...but to say that it was the liberals that "found a way" is really far off...more than left field, more like Pluto. As a rule, liberals believe in MORE regulation, conservatives believe in less...and it is EXACTLY how it went under Clinton with more regulation, then Bush Jr with less. Now it is not that the gov't comes in and sets limits or rules on banks as to what loan guidlines are per se...but they do affect the guidlines on securing those loans through Fanny May and Freddy Mac. Bush Jr's administration, in an attempt to get the economy moving, de-regulated both of them. Large banks, with relaxed guidlines, then accepted from mortgage brokers loans that would not have been approved before. So, yes, the Bush admin has EVERYTHING to do with bad loans flooding the market. The framework of what was acceptable was thrown out and it was left to banks and Freddy and Fanny to have their own oversight (another conservative ideal)...and banks took the opportunity to a new level. One of the guidlines was how much a bank was required to have in reserve assets versus monies loaned out...that was lowered and banks loaned out more than they had in reserves. And, as of this morning, it is found that large banks claiming over 80 billion in losses last year paid thier top executives over 240 billion...that's $3 paid to executives for every $1 lost....gimme a break that the rich didn't get richer while the middle class man's IRA's took a dump...I was a devout republican and still see the truth...because facts don't lie.

3. What snowball? The housing market was a stable business with housing prices increasing at the norm of roughly 5% a year under both Reagan and Clinton. It balooned under Bush Jr during his 2nd term AFTER his administration loosened the regulations on lending practices that housing prices went through the roof with homes doubling in price in less than 3 years. For that matter, show me one liberal who owns a bank or martgage house....and why was Bush Jr BRAGGING about the record first time home buyers in 2003 if it didn't happen under his administration? Those bad loans went sour when the variable interest kicked in...after only 2 years. So if it was under Clinton, wouldn't that have happened then, not now nearly 8 years later? It has been estimated that of the 1 million homes currently in forclosure that 97% of those loans were created as purchases or re-fi's since 2004...but go ahead and blame a president who hadn't been in office for more than 4 years and not the one who pushed for de-regulation and in office at the time.

4. The bailout...pure waste of tax payers dollars...again our gov't helping big banks, corporate share holders, etc...worse thing they could have done with our tax dollars. Rather spend it on schools, dole it out to states/counties for police, fire protection, New Orleans etc...but a good point that "bi-partisan" doesn't necessarily mean "good sense"

5. Not to be insulting, but FOX news is NOT the best place to get the facts when they are too busy defending everything Bush Jr did while ignoring the facts...I watch it too, but then watch others and investigate for myself...too many times they have flat out lied to protect their fair haired boy...but they are entertaining. I assume you get your facts from FOX because you sounded EXACTLY like Sean Hannity blaming Clinton for what happened in Bush Jr's SECOND term. Just like when he says the US was attacked multiple times under Clinton by terrorists and site the trade center bombing and our enlisted men overseas like the USS Cole and our embassies being bombed. But then he says because Bush is such a great leader that the US has not been attacked since 9/11 by terrorists but doesn't count our enlisted men overseas...because if he did he would have to admit the US has been attacked EVERY DAY by terrorists...

I am a BIG Reagan fan...he was a true republican...Bush is a neo-conservative, huge difference. Reagan, and his personally chosen cabinet, knew what they were doing (besides Iran/Contra)...Bush Jr surrounded himself with people that made bad decisions and are very artful in placing the blame on anybody but themselves. In fact, over 25 members of his personally appointed, not elected, cabinet have been found guilty of mutiple crimes or are currently indited for them or resigned because of...from stealing electronics from Target to sexual crimes that make Clinton look like an altar boy.


Of course when GW thought that putting a guy in charge of FEMA whose only qualification is organizing horse shows, what do you expect but failure when it comes time to actually do the job. I was a devout republican until Bush Jr. And as far as I am concerned he destroyed the republican party with his neo-conservative ways, only for the rich decision making. I am NOT anti republican, the TRUE republican party...I am, however, anti Bush Jr....big difference...HUGE difference. As far as I am concerned, he deserves way more than a slap for the condition he is leaving this country in while he goes back to Texas and makes millions more writing his biography...he won't be hurt at all for what he has done...not to mention his stock in oil and Cheney can finally make use of all of his stock options with Haliburton.

But I see that the red light is blinking and my time is up...your turn...
 
762 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 18:14
By the way, I coudn't get my post up because of links to sites I tried to place in my post showing where I got my data...used both the "create a link" and just typing them...niether worked. Any suggestions, or rather and explanation of what i am doing wrong would be appreciated...don't like claiming something without proving it.
 
763Perm Dude
      ID: 0916267
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 18:45
Baldwin: Frank Marshall Davis was a poet and labor activist. Ayers was a domestic terrorist who is now a leader (believe it or not) on educational issues. Alinski was a community organizer and labor activist, with socialist leanings. Antonio Gramsci (who died in 1937) was an Italian revolutionary and was squarely in the Marxist tradition. How, exactly is Obama like him? Be specific? Referencing Obama's own platform would be most helpful in this regard.

While you are at it, let us know the last digit of pi.

pd
 
764 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 19:22
Boldwin...one more question...just HOW did the liberals force the rich to give loans to unqualified people for homes? Discrimination in lending laws were passed LONG before Raegan, yet alone Clinton...and they do not "force" a bank to give a loan to minorities, etc...they merely state that you cannot DENY a QUALIFIED applicant based on race, creed, religion, sex or age...and this is unfair how? And please answer with facts not just FOX's opinion...I would bet that the percentage of loans in forclosure match the demographics of our countries population and is not scewed to any degree. It is SOLELY de-regulation with zero oversight that changed the qualifications for getting a loan ALLOWING big business to give them...not MAKING them give them...huge difference
 
765Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 21:15
This has been well covered in this forum.

Read and watch the videos in the Fire Marshall Bill thread. It is very clear what happened.

Dems just would not allow anything to slow down the mortgages to the poor and unworthy credit risks. Watch Barney Frank and Chris Dodd in the committee overseeing FM/FM. Watch the Republicans testify. It is as plain as day what was going on.

The big lie is of course going to be that Republicans don't like regulation and so it must have been Republican deregulation to blame. This is simply exactly wrong in this instance. I expect liberals to ignore what they saw and heard on those videos and lie from here to eternity about it anyway.

How do you force banks to make bad loans? Forbid them to expand unless they do, and threaten them with $500K fines each instance if they fail to lend a big enuff percentage of liar loans. Show up in the lobby and the front lawn of bankers homes if they don't cave-in to Acorn's demands.

 
766sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Oct 26, 2008, 22:15
opinion, innuendo, erroneous conclusions based on faulty evidance, finger pointing...I see a lot of that from you Boldy....but no facts to back up your allegations.

I believe it was bili who posted a link to an Acorn suit vs Wells Fargo, in which Wells was using bait-n-switch tactics against minorities. THAT is what drove the suit, not the idea of minorities being denied loans. But because of fraudulent and illegal lending practices. The same practices that if employed by myself at the dealership, would land me not in front of a civil suit, but in front of criminal proceedings.

So how exactly is enforcement of TILA, FACT Act, FCR Act etc..."forcing banks to give loans to anyone with a pulse"?
 
767 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 01:00
Thank you sarge...exactly what I would have replied.

Boldwin...I actually admire, to a degree, defending your party...and I will defend to death your right to...but do not confuse people who were sued for one thing with doing another...everybody that was given a loan (except where unscrupulous mortgage brokers lied to banks about their clients "worthiness" in order to line their own pockets with a percentage of the loan) MET the new guidelines that the relaxed regulations outlined. And those mortgage brokers that did that are now in big trouble...

The law suit is very clear on what they were sued for...and it has nothing to do with them being forced to give loans to people that, under the guidlines, did not meet them...

So be angry at the guidelines that were set...and, ergo, whose administration set them. For without them NONE of the bad loans would have been approved and NOBODY could have successfuly sued them for not approving them. Not giving a man a loan that he qualifies for because of his monority status is not the same thing as not giving a minority a loan that he doesn't qualify for.

Is it not obvious that this administration has gone against ALL the rules that guided ALL of our past administrations? When did we EVER start a pre-emptive war prior to Bush Jr? When did we ever go to war with anybody that had not attacked us or our allies? When were we ever lied to that a country attacked us that had not? When did we de-regulate to the point that the worst financial crisis we have ever faced came about after correcting those flaws in the late 20's? When have we ever been accused of torturing our prisoners of war? When has a president, vice-president ever gotten away with not providing congressional oversight committees with court orders that demanded testimony or info?...Nixon tried and the supreme court DEMANDED the tapes...When has an administration had so many charged, tried and convicted of so many crimes? Theres always been a few, but this many?

Defend the party, not the biggest idiot ever not elected to the office of president. Defend the ideals of the republican party, I'll stand side by side with you...but don't make Bush the poster boy for the republican party...because that is a very lonely crowd to be in and shrinking by the day due to facts, not lies and rhetoric spewing from the mouths of liberals...it's the ENTIRE worlds view point of him for ample reason...how can 5.8 billion people be wrong and so few be right? Change the channel, look at other web sites, listen with an open mind to the points of everybody else and the truth will set you free....
 
768Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 03:15
OK, first we can dispense with the pretense that you entered this board with. Bipartisan seeing both sides my patootie.

everybody that was given a loan (except where unscrupulous mortgage brokers lied to banks about their clients "worthiness" in order to line their own pockets with a percentage of the loan) MET the new guidelines that the relaxed regulations outlined. And those mortgage brokers that did that are now in big trouble...


I think you are perhaps confusing the problem of ARMs with the CRA, Community Reinvestment Act.

Under the CRA there basically were no guidelines. Banks were literally even instructed to accept unemployment checks as proof of ability to pay and failure to do so would open a bank up to a $500K lawsuit.

Banks caved into fear of that kind of legal harrassment and fear of the 350,000 strong rent-a-mob Acorn intimidation force which Obama himself was involved with creating for years.

So be angry at the guidelines that were set...and, ergo, whose administration set them.

The guidelines were deliberately set to nil under the Clinton Administration but this was a dance between the congress and the president with most of the blame due to the congressional committees charged with oversight of banking. On that committee it was always republicans trying to have Fannie Mae in particular subjected to more responsible regulation. It was always key democrats on that committee, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd screaming racism and hatred of the poor whenever republicans suggested reining Fannie Mae in.

Watch this video and tell me with a straight face it was the Republicans or Bush preventing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from being regulated stronger.



And those institutions were really the crux of the problem because banks forced to take on bad CRA risky loans knew that they could sell that crap to FM/FM and take that risk off their hands and FM/FM compounded the problem by inventing ways to repackage those bad loans and spread them throughout the financial system. Here is your only hope of pinning any of this on republicans. As PD has dug up, the Gramm, Leach, Bliley Act allowed mergers and types of security transactions that are involved in the current mess. I'll allow that that was a republican bill even tho it passed under Clinton's watch. However the real damage was done in that bill when Dems insisted before they would allow it to be passed, that the CRA be ungraded to further gut regulation of lending to high risk borrowers. Thus when these packages of securities Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac put together [now allowed under Gramm Leach Bliley]to spread throughout the finacial world, they were guaranteed to be full of crap loans which is the key problem. It's not called the sub-prime mortgage mess for nothing.

If you want to pretend Gramm Leach Bliley was the key then you have to take the position that it would have been a problem and thus a republican problem without the changes Dems forced into that legislative process. Back when banks weren't being forced to make liar loans real estate would have made a GREAT investment to be spread all around the financial sector.

Really go over to the Fire Marshall Bill thread and watch all the videos before asking me to do all that work twice.

Just how invested was Fannie Mae in the Dem vision of handing every poor person a loan no matter what? Watch the following video. Tell me that was a republican picnic. Or is this guy just faking these emotions?





 
769biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 08:18
You have no idea what you are talking about, Baldwin. Fannie and Freddie didn't invent securitization. They also lost immense market-share during the early part of this decade because they were the only stalwarts of reasonable standards, insisting on full documentation for the vast majority of their mortgages.

They were the rock, while the sand was rushing by them on the beach. It was private lenders who's standard deteriorated to nothing that were the vast majority problem, not FF.

Granted, they were always under-capitalized, and those standards did erode beginning in 2005 under congressional pressure, but your hatred of Clinton is blinding you to the data out there that obviously refutes your claims.
 
770Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 08:46
The banks were under stricter standards than FM/FM.
 
771biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 08:52
I'm just looking at the outcomes, not the regs.

Fannie and Freddie by-and-large made much better loans than the private sector over the last 10 years to borrowers who had the ability to repay them.

Yes, there was a small segment of their business that focused on low-income borrowers, but it was a tiny fraction of their loans. The vast majority performed, and continue to perform, vastly better than the the loans originated privately.

This isn't politics, it's book-keeping.
 
772Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:06
Banks caved into fear of that kind of legal harrassment and fear of the 350,000 strong rent-a-mob Acorn intimidation force which Obama himself was involved with creating for years.

Let's assume that you're right and not grossly exaggerating. If that were the case, foreclosures would be limited primarily to inner city properties; foreclosures would be limited primarily to minority buyers; foreclosures would be limited primarily to states where there were actually documented instances of rent-a-mob Acorn intimidation. Additionally, you'd have to show that these inner city properties that have been foreclosed make up the glut of the inventory that currently can't be moved.
Of course, the data doesn't exist that would support those claims. You've taken a tiny and largely insignificant issue and attempted to frame it as the cause for the mortgage meltdown. In doing so, you have ignored every other contributing element, and they are many and diverse.

Most importantly of all, you have ignored
Republican complicity on the very issue you claim is solely the responsibility of Democrats.

The goal is, everybody who wants to own a home has got a shot at doing so. The problem is we have what we call a homeownership gap in America. Three-quarters of Anglos own their homes, and yet less than 50 percent of African Americans and Hispanics own homes. That ownership gap signals that something might be wrong in the land of plenty. And we need to do something about it.

We are here in Washington, D.C. to address problems. So I've set this goal for the country. We want 5.5 million more homeowners by 2010 -- million more minority homeowners by 2010. (Applause.) Five-and-a-half million families by 2010 will own a home. That is our goal. It is a realistic goal. But it's going to mean we're going to have to work hard to achieve the goal, all of us. And by all of us, I mean not only the federal government, but the private sector, as well.

And so what are the barriers that we can deal with here in Washington? Well, probably the single barrier to first-time homeownership is high down payments. People take a look at the down payment, they say that's too high, I'm not buying. They may have the desire to buy, but they don't have the wherewithal to handle the down payment. We can deal with that. And so I've asked Congress to fully fund an American Dream down payment fund which will help a low-income family to qualify to buy, to buy. (Applause.)

We believe when this fund is fully funded and properly administered, which it will be under the Bush administration, that over 40,000 families a year -- 40,000 families a year -- will be able to realize the dream we want them to be able to realize, and that's owning their own home. (Applause.)

The second barrier to ownership is the lack of affordable housing. There are neighborhoods in America where you just can't find a house that's affordable to purchase, and we need to deal with that problem. The best way to do so, I think, is to set up a single family affordable housing tax credit to the tune of $2.4 billion over the next five years to encourage affordable single family housing in inner-city America. (Applause.)

The third problem is the fact that the rules are too complex. People get discouraged by the fine print on the contracts. They take a look and say, well, I'm not so sure I want to sign this. There's too many words. (Laughter.) There's too many pitfalls. So one of the things that the Secretary is going to do is he's going to simplify the closing documents and all the documents that have to deal with homeownership.

It is essential that we make it easier for people to buy a home, not harder.


George W Bush - June 18, 2002

Actual data and statistics that help illuminate the scope of the problem can be found in this article.

A massive speculative bubble in housing prices caused millions of Americans to think of their homes as an investment, rather than a place to live.

Investors purchased one of every five homes last year, and almost one of every three when the market peaked in 2005, according to the Realtors trade group.
Now, more than 30 percent of properties in the foreclosure process are owned by someone with a different address, indicating the home is likely owned by an investor, according to foreclosure listing service RealtyTrac Inc.

The scale of the mortgage crisis became clear in July 2007 when Countrywide Financial, then the nation's largest mortgage lender, reported an unexpected surge in defaults in high-quality mortgages.

The Federal Housing Administration, a government agency that backs loans to borrowers with weak credit, says it has helped about 400,000 borrowers refinance over the past year, though only about 1 percent were behind on their loans.


Only the most rabid of Obama-haters insult our intelligence with the premise that ACORN rent-a-mobs forcing banks to make bad loans is the root cause of the mortgage meltdown. The data just doesn't support the theory. There's plenty of blame to go around, and President Bush, as shown in the above link, is every bit as complicit as any community organization.

 
773Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 09:59
Bili

Now you, a formerly serious poster and someone I once respected are just pulling stuff out yer @ss and callin it golden apples of wisdom.

Yes, there was a small segment of their business that focused on low-income borrowers, but it was a tiny fraction of their loans. The vast majority performed, and continue to perform, vastly better than the the loans originated privately.

A very small...did you say?

A tiny fraction...did you say?

Fannie Mae invented the market for bad loans. After this program took off any bank could give a loan to anyone with a pulse, secure in the knowlege that he knew at least one fool who would take the bad debt off his hands, and that fool was Fannie Mae.

Note the following quote/proposal/guideline from that piece which actually originated from Henry Cisneros at HUD under Clinton in 1999...
In July, the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed that by the year 2001, 50 percent of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's portfolio be made up of loans to low and moderate-income borrowers. Last year, 44 percent of the loans Fannie Mae purchased were from these groups.

The change in policy also comes at the same time that HUD is investigating allegations of racial discrimination in the automated underwriting systems used by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to determine the credit-worthiness of credit applicants.
And while I am flicking that gargantuan godzilla off your shoulder, let me flick a nit as well...

Fannie and Freddie by-and-large made much better loans than the private sector over the last 10 years to borrowers who had the ability to repay them.
- Bili

Fannie Mae originates no loans whatsoever. They buy them from banks, aka the private sector.

Anything else up the ole wazzoo that needs a good looking over?
 
774Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 10:11
this board, with the addition of one poster, has gone from more of the same to something seemingly new and exciting.

during what should be one of the most "exciting" political times in our nations history, Baldwin's seemingly crazy posts have really helped turn this board into a place i came for humour, but not the insight i once sought.

all of a sudden, someone new comes on, says a lot of very intelligent, bi-partisan things (Baldwin, are you even reading the posts, or just skimming for buzzwords and talking points??!?!), and still Baldwin shreds Freddy Krueger.

the difference is that this new poster is bringing a new school of thought here - not someone who Baldwin can call a crazy liberal like myself or bili or SZ (despite how off that characterization is, as none of the three of us share all the same ideals) - or a compatriot in beliefs (like Boxman) - but someone new, with thoughts and posts on this board that haven't been seen recently in these partisan times.

hopefully, Baldwin will come around, and instead of calling Wizardburger some sort of liberal partisan (like he has already alluded to in an above post), will see his posts for the honesty and fresh air they breathe into this board.

otherwise, it'll be more of the same, in no time.
 
775Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 10:30
PV

I partially addressed your issues in another thread. I need to step out and go door to door for a while, but I would be interested in looking into exactly what role ARM's played in this thing. If you can find proof that they were far more significant than sub-prime loans in this fiasco I'd like to see that source.

For your political purposes you would then have to go further and prove that ARM's were a Republican creation.
 
776boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 12:30
oh man there is new poster, i have not bothered to read this thread in weeks, not that is some excitement as for tree insinuation that this this one most exciting political times in nations history i find i kind of funny, i believe they say that every election. It all about the next best or next crisis....adjectives no longer have meaning.

This has to be one the dumbest threads in while. Get over it Boldwin no matter how you spin it the Democrats did not create this "crisis" anymore than republicans did. Inless some how one the parties created greed which i highly doubt. I think it is pretty interesting to go back and look at the Panics of 1908, 1893, 1873, and 1855. They are pretty much the same story just repeating it self. It is just a matter of what the banks are using to back their loans with.
 
777Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 13:42
For your political purposes you would then have to go further and prove that ARM's were a Republican creation.

My political purposes? What a selective memory. I chastized Joe Biden for parroting Obama in his debate with Palin by opening with saying the economic crisis was the result of 8 years of Bush and Republican policies. I'm not now, nor have I ever said that Republicans are solely to blame, or that blame can even be attached to a political party.
It is you, and those who you have used as support, who are being historically revisionist by attempting to lay the entire crisis at the feet of Democrats in general and Obama in particular, through his association with community organizations like ACORN.


During the fat years, no one was protesting home ownership at the highest levels ever; no one was protesting Home Depot and Lowe's opening across the street from each other in market after market; no one was protesting real estate agents, developers, contractors and subcontractors making record profits; and no one was protesting as long as their portfolios were averaging north of 10% a year.

As for ARMs, there's little difference between hoping a property will appreciate and sold for a profit before the monthly adjustment; hoping a property will appreciate and sold for a profit while generating no equity on the principal(interest only); or re-financing(sometimes numerous times) based on appreciation so that there is negative equity in the event the property depreciates.

It is my experience(and I work daily with developers, real estate agents, home buyers, property managers, interior decorators) that these three elements - ARMs, interest only and re-financing, coupled with depreciation in property values and tightening of credit qualifications(actually reverting to traditional norms)are just as much of the problem of the mortgage crisis, if not more, than bad loans made to poor people.

As I have mentioned previously, foreclosures on lower priced homes generally are not among the glut of inventory(at least in my market)because more people can qualify for them in this tighter credit market or investors snatch them up for rental properties.

The market for $1,000 a month rentals is much higher than the market for $3,500 a month rentals.
The glut of inventory(at least in my market) is for the higher priced homes($400,000 and up) that people have either walked away from or were built as specs and either never sold or never finished.

None of this has anything to do with my political purposes, except to refute your attempt to lay the entire blame for this crisis at the feet of the Democrats.


 
778Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 15:28
as for tree insinuation that this this one most exciting political times in nations history i find i kind of funny, i believe they say that every election

when's the last time we had an african american THIS close to being elected President? when's the last time we had the rest of the world saying "wow. the united states might elect a black man?? maybe they're not a bunch of racists after all..."

this is a VERY exciting time...
 
779boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 15:51
so excitement for you is what the rest of world thinks and i like how they think we are racists? have you talked to people from europe? they way more racists than Americans. I would not be getting all excited if Algerian was getting elected president of France. never mind the fact that getting majority of country to vote for you does not mean your country is not racist.

I am sure that if McCain were black you would not be excited.
 
780Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 16:08
PV

I have just completed reading the first of your links.

What exactly is wrong, irresponsible, or leading to liar loans or poorly performing loans when all Buish has done is find ways to help with down payments, tax credits to make the payments easier, simplifying the wording of contracts, educating people how to buy a house and how to avoid predatory lending practices, or finally vouchers to help with down strokes and house payments?

Did you even read your own link?

Every single thing Bush proposed would make it easier for a poor person to actually end up with affordable housing.

What Obama, Chris Dodd and Barney Frank did only led to liar loans that were not realistically regulated and were poor odds to ever get payed off.
 
781Perm Dude
      ID: 49910278
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 16:12
I'm sure if McCain had a positive campaign and can paint for us a clear picture of what he stands for (as opposed to what he's against) he would have generated more excitement.

But he didn't.

And sharing the world's excitement isn't a failing. But slaming Europeans because they have "way more racists" probably is.
 
782sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 16:14
So your contention Boldwin, is that the Federal Govt (while consisting of a Rep Legislature and WH but it was the Dems who did it) created the "Stated Income Loans", I-O Loans and the Negative Ammortization Loans?

I seem to recall my blasting the very idea of I-O and/or Neg Ammortization loans here on these forums when they first started to appear and some here were talking about getting one themselves.

A loan product, is conceived by a lender. NOT the govt. Some banker, somewhere, came up with this BRILLIANT idea and somehow sold it to his Board of Directors. Find THAT person, and there is IMHO, the primary culprit.
 
783boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 16:29
re 781, so this is the most exciting campaign because McCain is not exciting? its an exciting campaign the same way this is exciting season for Penn State.

I think if you wanted an really exciting campaign that would actually shake things up, you would need legitimate 3rd party contender. Not two for the most part rehashes of past candidates.
 
784Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 16:59
how the heck can i even respond to the idiocy that is post 779?

i read. i've read how europe, asia, africa, the middle east, and so on, feel in regards to obama being elected...

you, however, apparently didn't even read my post.

 
785Perm Dude
      ID: 49910278
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 17:04
#783: Er, no. This is exciting because we have a legitimate chance to reverse some of the idiodic and harmful policies of one of the worst administrations ever.

Obama is good. And he's coming along at a time when we need someone good at the top. That's exciting.
 
786Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 17:08
PV

I have just completed reading your second link.

I fail to see anything there that you can lay at Bush's feet. The only thing that link does is point out that there are other factors involved than sub-prime mortgages.

Well yes there was a real estate bubble bursting. This was exactly what republicans and bank auditors and governmental regulators kept warning the Banking Committee about ever since the CRA combined with pressure from HUD, and outrageously large successful discrimination lawsuits against banks drove reason out of the loan approval equation @ 1999.

That there was a real estate bubble and that all bubbles burst sooner or later was predictable. See the Real Estate Bubble thread I started years ago.

Did Bush create the bubble? Well one factor was the FED. Low interest rates help feed bubbles. But are you really going to complain about low interest rates? Do you want to go back to Jimmy Carter interest rates? Yes Bush did have input on whether the FED had a chairman who favored low interest rates and was skilled enuff to provide them without unbalancing the inflation rate. I doubt any rational person is going to get red in the face about that.

You want to blame speculators? Yes investors tend to jump into bubbles on the way up. This isn't a partisan phenomenon.

The one thing I won't hold over Obama's head is ARM's. ARM's fed the bubble in that they allowed homes to get priced artificially high.

The government allowing anyone with a pulse to qualify for a loan fed the bubble. If there is no end in sight of buyers lined up you can jack up the price. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd made sure there were 11 million illegal aliens lined up with mortgage money in hand. They made sure anyone including the unemployed qualified. Which had the perverse effect of making homes too expensive for poor people who actually could make house payments.

The money line in that link was...They took advantage of risky loan products that didn't require down payments or proof of income. Other loans allowed the borrower to pay only the interest on the loan, or even less, and none of the principal for a certain time.

Dems were responsible for the first half of that line and I really don't know exactly where to lay the blame for ARM's, the second portion. If you want to mine for partisan paydirt there would be something to sift thru, tho I don't guarantee you find anything useful.
 
787boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 17:13
re 784, why should i care or anyone care what they think about our election. Just as i would not care if an Algerian was about to become president of france. 784 was an artwork of bad english, sorry and yes i did read your post.

re 785, "exciting" maybe but not "most exciting" not really. I can not wait till the let down goes into effect and i actually think he will do fairly effective job.
 
788 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 19:47
It seems the thread has gone off...interesting.
I do not blame the president for coming up with ideas that destroyed the market...de-regulation has always been a push for republicans, and as I was one for ALL of my years till Bush Jr., AGREE with some form of de-regulation...or should I say LESS regulation. But one has to admit the de-regulation in THIS administration did not just mean banks, but the watchdogs on EVERYTHING...enviornmentaly, his own administration, the war, our civil liberties.

He just passed an agreement with coal miners to go ahead and dump the tops of the mountains they are now allowed to blast off anywhere including into the rivers and streams...quietly on his way out the door I am sure he will do more damage.

They left the henhouse door open with nobody watching in instance after instance....

It has NOTHING to do with being bi-partisn Boldwin...it has to do with being aware that this admin is corrupt as hell...

I like ideals from BOTH parties...that does not mean I have to like Bush Jr as a man and a leader. I am now an independant BECAUSE of Bush and voted for a write in candidate this time around...knowing it means naught, but cannot bring myself to vote for either of the two biggies because of either lack of experience and past ties, or the desire to not have another Bush Jr.

Not agreeing with you on your love for Bush does not give you the right to call me a liar in so many words...grow up and learn to debate rather than just throw *&$# at people...don't get so butt hurt because others have a brain and see things different than your narrowminded, Bush can do no wrong ways...or go join the 3 other people on the planet that still worship him as a demi-god...
 
789 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 20:29
On another note....I asked for Boldwin to show me just one liberal bank or mortgage house owner to back up his claims that the liberals did this.

After reading his further posts I now defy him to find just one, and no more than one to prove his point, that somebody out there ever got a loan approved where his unemploymnet check was proof of income....that does not count Stated Income loans where anybody and everybody could lie about their income (and those ideas were created by banks in order to charge higher interest points)...but where somebody went in and using their umemployment check as proof of income got a house loan....just one Boldwin.

Furthermore I defy you to find ANYBODY who sued successfully ANY bank for not giving them a loan they DIDN"T qualify for because they were a minority...or for that matter any bank that was fined $500k for not giving a loan to somebody who DIDN"T qualify for a loan but he/she was a minority...that does not include people who were minorities who QUALIFIED for a loan and were denied...they have a right to sue...

Banks having to recognize an unemployment check as proof of income is for them being able to get an account so they don't have to PAY to get their check cashed...not a right to a loan...quit using lies as your argument points...quit twisting lawsuits to fit your argument...use facts...

I am waiting with baited breath for you to back up just one of your claims with just one example as proof...otherwise it is fair to claim the moon is made of green cheese and you have to buy it...

However if you are right, I will print out all of my posts, and yours, and film me eating them and place it on You Tube for all to see...I could use the fiber anyway :-)

By the way, I didn't like Carter as president too...does that make me even more "not" bi-partisan? (at least I like Carter as a MAN, just not as an effective president)
 
790Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 21:30
yes i did read your post...

re 785, "exciting" maybe but not "most exciting" not really.


clearly, you didn't read my post, as i expliciting said "one of the most exciting"....i've only been around for about 10 or so presidential elections - i have no idea if any of the ones before my time were more exciting...

why should i care or anyone care what they think about our election.

because you should care about what people think about you and your nation.

it's called "pride". if you don't have pride in yourself, and perhaps you don't, then i can understand where you're coming from.

WB - i anxiously await your reaction to whatever "proof" Baldwin comes up with. his proof is, if nothing else, nearly always entertaining...

 
791Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 21:51
WB

Obviously you've been around boards before and know how to assign 'make-work' projects to your opponent. This particular tactic is the 'wild-goose-chase' tactic. Not that there aren't actually wild geese out there but make sure your opponent actually has to go hunt one particular one down, not that it would convince you, not that he is in your employment, just to wear him down and run around not doing more productive things.

I've already provided the links to the Boston branch of Fannie Mae issuing guidelines to banks to accept unemployment checks as proof of ability to pay. Why one particular case of a bank actually using the guidelines they were issued will convince you further elludes me.

I've already provided the board proof that there are 11 million illegal aliens with mortgages. Exactly what part of 'I may be deported tomorrow and stop payments' don't you understand? Why will my finding one specific illegal alien with a mortgage convince you further? No, you explain to me why a bank would ever make that loan in any sane world?
 
792Tree
      ID: 559491723
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:38
i rest my case.
 
793Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:44
That is it's steady state.
 
794Perm Dude
      ID: 49910278
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 00:07
I've already provided the board proof that there are 11 million illegal aliens with mortgages

Where? I'm serious--where is this proof?
 
795Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 01:31
PD - do i need to post another photo of baldwin's tin hat?
 
796 wizardburger
      ID: 53912616
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 01:54
So Clinton's calling for low income first time homebuyers getting loans started all of this and Bush Jr had nothing to do with it?

Bush bragged about home ownership and thought Freddie and Fannie and getting poor people in big homes was great:

From a 2002 speech by Pres. Bush

President Reiterates Goal on Homeownership
Remarks by the President on Homeownership
Department of Housing and Urban Development
Washington, D.C.

"The goal is, everybody who wants to own a home has got a shot at doing so. The problem is we have what we call a homeownership gap in America. Three-quarters of Anglos own their homes, and yet less than 50 percent of African Americans and Hispanics own homes. That ownership gap signals that something might be wrong in the land of plenty. And we need to do something about it.

We are here in Washington, D.C. to address problems. So I've set this goal for the country. We want 5.5 million more homeowners by 2010 -- million more minority homeowners by 2010. (Applause.) Five-and-a-half million families by 2010 will own a home. That is our goal. It is a realistic goal. But it's going to mean we're going to have to work hard to achieve the goal, all of us. And by all of us, I mean not only the federal government, but the private sector, as well.

And so I want to, one, encourage you to do everything you can to work in a realistic, smart way to get this done. I repeat, we're here for a reason. And part of the reason is to make this dream extend everywhere.

I'm going to do my part by setting the goal, by reminding people of the goal, by heralding the goal, and by calling people into action, both the federal level, state level, local level, and in the private sector. (Applause.) .....

And so, therefore, I've called -- yesterday, I called upon the private sector to help us and help the home buyers. We need more capital in the private markets for first-time, low-income buyers. And I'm proud to report that Fannie Mae has heard the call and, as I understand, it's about $440 billion over a period of time. They've used their influence to create that much capital available for the type of home buyer we're talking about here. It's in their charter; it now needs to be implemented. Freddie Mac is interested in helping. I appreciate both of those agencies providing the underpinnings of good capital."

Bush too rallied for the SAME thing..

I give McCain the credit for attmepting an increase in regulatory oversight of FM/FM in 2005...but that was after years of calling for de-regulation that led to all of this by republicans....

As my entire family has been involved in real estate and own amortgage broker firm, I am fully aware of what was acceptable by FM/FM and every bank that supplied and approved home loans...and NONE of them allowed an application through where unemployment or welfare was an acceptable amount of income to secure the loan...theyhad to include their welfare checks and unemployment checks as verified income by law, but none of the aplications ever stood a chance of being APPROVED...big difference. They didn't qualify...but by law nobody had been discriminated against because they refused to accept and attempt to process the loan.

It is a law that if you ask to fill out a job application at any place of business that they cannot deny you the right to do so...does that mean you will get the job if you are not qualified? Does that mean that the minute you walk out the door they don't "round file" it?

No matter what...de-regulation to the point it became zero oversight led to this mess...and Bush Jr called for it, along wiht this admin, the whole time...did the left sponsor crap that pushed for low income loans...yes...but not to the point you claim Boldwin where banks HAD to give loans to the unemployed...that is a Hannity spin on this situation.

And again...I go back to my previous posts and state that either side in an extreme is beyond sanity...

But in ALL of my research I cannot find one loan that was given to somebody on welfare or unemployment...just a bunch or rhetoric on how they had to count it as income...well I hate to say it, but it is income...not enough to qualify for a bicycle loan, but income....but if you only read Hannity's statements it sounds like all the loans to minorities were based on unemployment and welfare...but not one example of that being true.

And lawsuits are public domain...NONE exist where a bank was sued for denying a loan to an unqualified applicant who was a minority...period. Nor has ANY bank been fined $500k for refusing a loan to an uncqualified applicant...and believe me I looked.

So, if all the loans went to qualified applicants...what happened? In MY OPINION de-regulation led to no oversight and the greedy sought to make as much money as poosible off the housing boom...investors hold at least 20% of the loans that are in forclosure...it was a heydey for the bankers and mortgage brokers until it all fell apart...now EVERYBODY is calling for oversight...let that be the lesson, some oversight is necessary because greed will win out if there is none...as an independent i want oversight, just not to the point of the feds being in my face...a compromise between dem and gop ideals...again, both in extreme is beyond sanity.

I also mentioned my dislike of Obamas connections...that includes Raines and Johnson.
 
797Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 02:14
Dude, it wasn't a deregulation problem. They were required to change their definition of 'conforming'. It was just a mindset at HUD and the GSE's and all presidencies and the banking committee that we needed to bend over backwards to the breaking point to get poor people into home ownership. The charges of racism and discrimination against the poor were never ending. It didn't matter how crazy the lending got, it was never enuff to satisfy the majority leadership of the Banking Committee. [or Acorn, or the black caucus, etc but I put the biggest onus on Chris Dodd and Barney Frank]

But you just aparently can't bring yourself to watch the videos of the Banking Committee. You have it @ss backwards. It was the republicans fighting a losing battle to tighten up regulations at FM/FM. Watch it coming right out of the horses' mouths. BTW Dems tried to supress those committee videos and we are very fortunate some were saved.
 
798CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 05:04
It is obvious Baldwin isn't interested in reality and facts. They get in the way of his ideology.

Nevertheless, here is one refutation of his drivel he can ignore.
 
799Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 05:38
Wow Hack, contained below the drivel opinion piece you linked to was a spectacularly clear description of exactly what I have been saying...
This disaster started on July 15, 1993, when President Clinton signed into law the Community Reinvestment Act, a seemingly innocuous law that encouraged lending institutions to serve their communities. However, as soon as the law was signed, Clinton had HUD set up regulations “in support of the law” to rate lenders on how well they served the minorities in their communities. Immediately, they found that Blacks and Hispanics were turned down for loans at a much higher rate than Whites. In fact, if factors such as credit worthiness and being able to fill out an application were considered, the rates for acceptance were statistically similar. That was ignored. Lending institutions were rated against other institutions and those that rated low were punished when it came to dealings with the Federal Reserve, FHA, and HUD. It was taken to the point the banks were told where they had to open new branches, so they were serving areas with high percentages of minorities. Then, the government went to work pressuring the lending institutions to make loans to the less credit worthy.

Clinton then signed NAFTA in 1994 and all of the other free trade agreements soon after. Our citizens were sold a bill of goods that these agreements would open up foreign markets to American-made goods and products and would not damage the US economy. All these agreements really did was allow a mass migration of manufacturing jobs from the US to third-world countries all over the world, where wages were one-tenth that of American workers. Why was this important? It is important because no economy in the history of the world has survived as a “service” economy. Manufacturing has always been the basis of a strong economy. Without tariffs to protect our workers from foreign competition, companies had to move overseas by the thousands in order to remain competitive in a “global marketplace.” Made-in-America used to mean something. It meant quality. Now, if you can still find those words on anything, it means too small a niche market to bother with.

About the same time, the flood gates that we once called our southern border opened up. Today, we have 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in our country [ok, here is where I got the 11 million illegal imigrants figure rattling around my head. The number of illegal immigrants who got mortgages was actually 5 million according to HUD as reported by Drudge and a Pheonix TV station. HUD retracted the statement and the TV station erased their link as soon as they realized how republicans would use that information -B], using our services, committing social security fraud (identity theft), changing their identities anytime they get close to the minimum taxable income, and then filing several income tax returns so they get earned income credit for each of their identities. The IRS could track these people down if they wanted, but that would be discrimination, since most of them are Hispanic. Lending institutions are discouraged by the federal government from asking about citizenship during the application process. The government made it even easier by requiring the entire process to be in Spanish if the customer desired.

In 1999, Clinton signed into law The Financial Services Modernization Act, which basically repealed The Banking Act of 1933 that had separated lending institutions, security traders, and insurance companies. The Banking Act of 1933 had been written to prevent another financial catastrophe like the one that occurred in 1929. This was the final piece of the puzzle that sealed our economic fate. With the new law, lenders, now acting as security traders, were allowed to bundle mortgages as securities and sell them to other institutions. In this way, lenders didn’t have to worry about the poor credit ratings of those they had given loans to because they could just sell the loans to others without any further liability. That made it very easy to comply with the pressure the lenders were getting from HUD to loan more money to minorities, regardless of credit rating. All they had to do was come up with an innovative loan that would appeal to those with little reliable income. Hence, the sub-prime loan was born. Soon domestic and foreign financial institutions, pension funds and insurance companies were buying the newly formed securities like crazy. After all, since they were promoted by the US government, wouldn’t they be protected?

That brings us to where we are today. Bush’s administration was so preoccupied with finishing his father’s war and then with “fighting terror”, that they ignored all of the regulatory initiatives that Clinton’s people put into place, [Maybe if the republican minority in the Banking Comittee had had a president fired up about this issue it wouldn't have been so easy to shut them out -B] and they remain in effect today. When it all comes crashing down…and it will…because you can’t dig yourself out of a hole, which is what printing money to pay off debt or borrowing even more money from other countries is, then the entire house of cards comes with it. If the US economy goes down, then the rest of the world loses its customer base, since most of the countries now manufacturing the goods do not have a general populace with enough money to buy their products. So, the factories shut down and economies fail throughout the world.

Do we want to ensure that this doesn’t happen again? Then change the financial rules back to what they were before. Only lend money to those who are credit worthy. Disallow adjustable rate mortgages. If the borrower can’t afford the payment up front, then they can’t afford the payment. Make it so that financing is race blind and loans are based on credit worthiness…period. Force the companies that have merged lenders, security trading and insurance to dissolve those ties. Do not allow companies to trade mortgage-backed paper dressed up as securities. Only allow sale of individual mortgages from one institution to another…not as packages of mortgages with some sound mortgages and others that are unsound. Fix the international commerce system to once again protect American workers. Get manufacturing back into the United States. Write laws to force government agencies to work together to make it impossible to work in this country unless you are here legally. Immigration controls are not discriminatory. They merely protect our citizens. Isn’t that what our government is supposed to be doing? We had labored long enough under the misconception that we could make things better int the rest of the world without protecting our own citizens. The truth is that you can’t lift another up unless you maintain your own footing. And we have lost our footing."
Ask yourself what are the odds Mr Acorn trainer Obama allows the solutions in that last paragrph to be carried out. Slim and none. His 'solution' will be more government handouts, more taxes, FDR style socialist programs galore, posibly pushing over as many banks as possible out of a hate the rich/demonize the banks mindset. What arises out of the ashes will not resemble the last paragraph of that piece.
 
800CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 05:49
And if Baldwin was smart enough to read on he would have found this:

John Handforth's lengthy explanation blaming Clinton for everything that caused the economic meltdown might sound erudite and plausible to lots of people - too bad it's not true. One of the hallmarks of the right-wing idealogues these days is to come out with blatant lies that blame their opponents for everything that THEY have done. It's a Rovian technique. Actually, most of the banking laws from 1933-34 were rescinded by none other than Ronald Reagan (remember Reaganomics?)by Executive Order.



Contrary to what Handforth wrote, Clinton DID NOT sign the Community Reinvestment Act into law in 1993. The Community Reinvestment Act was passed by Congress and signed into law by Jimmy Carter in 1977. The point of the CRA has always been to ensure that loans be made to minorities on the basis of creditworthiness only. The 1989 revision to CRA requiring public issuance of a CRA rating to banks was signed into law by George H.W. Bush. Under Clinton, the CRA examinations and ratings were standardized and a 1997 study showed that the CRA lenders were as profitable as other commercial mortgage lenders.



The act which Clinton signed that blurred the lines between lending institutions, security traders, and insurance companies was passed by a REPUBLICAN Congress. Check out the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 if you don't believe me (also known as the "Financial Services Modernization Act"). Does the name Gramm ring a bell? It should. It's the same Phil Gramm who is McCain's economic advisor and campaign co-chair - the one who called Americans "a nation of whiners". THAT Gramm is the one who worked so hard to repeal the key provisions of the Glass-Steagal Act of 1933 (the act which separated the banking, securities, and insurance entities). Clinton did not want to sign this bill, and only signed it with the compromise that the banks who wanted to expand into insurance or securities had to also comply with CRA. Gramm originally wanted fewer banks to fall under CRA, and what he ended up getting into the bill was less CRA oversight for smaller banks. So, in short, it was the REPUBLICANS who wanted to end the separation between the banks, securities traders and insurance companies!



It's important to understand that "CRA loans" were never intended to be subprime loans, and CRA did not force banks into unsafe lending practices. This is a myth. According to a Federal Reserve survey done during the Clinton years, CRA loans tended to be profitable and not overly risky. In fact, housing advocacy groups warned the Federal Reserve of the dangers of sub-prime lending beginning back in the 1990's, but apparently the lure of subprime profitability was just too much temptation for some greedy lenders to resist. Even so, according to a Treasury Department official, only about 25% of subprime loans were made by banks regulated under CRA, and the majority of these were not the higher priced "predatory" loans that resulted in the current crisis. He estimated that independent mortgage companies were responsible for about 50% of the subprime loans. A separate 2008 study found that CRA regulated banks were less likely to grant subprime loans, and when they were made, the interest rates were lower than non-CRA-regulated banks, and the loans were 50% less likely to be resold.



Unfortunately, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were allowed to buy subprime mortgage-backed securities under the relaxed oversight policies of the Bush Administration. Clinton and CRA should not be blamed for the Bush Administration's lack of proper oversight and regulation. And certainly the poor and minorities should not be blamed for an economic meltdown that was the result of what, to my mind, was greedy gambling by the rich, using a real-estate version of a pyramid scheme.
 
801Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 05:50
Fix the international commerce system to once again protect American workers.

At this time the WTO we helped invent is the frankenstein monster we have no control over.

Get manufacturing back into the United States.

Does Obama even have an election year lie about doing this? I know the power elite would much rather their investment dollars stayed where they are in China hiring Chinese prison and slave labor building our stuff.
-------------
Right now tho Obama is promising tax cuts to 95% of americans, in actuality 40% of americans don't even pay taxes and by the time Obama gets done he'll have enuff illegal imigrants here to make that 51%. Sherwood forest will be a scary place then. They can't vote? He's made voters out of less.
 
802Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 06:10
What an artful slight of hand pile of crap, Hack.

The CRA was steamroller rolling downhill under the gravity of democrats and radical activists. That it rolled on under successive adminstrations starting with Carter does nothing to dispell the fact of who was pushing it to more and more unhealthy extremes. It took an especially noteworthy downturn under Clinton. IIf you had been following along, Hack, you would have noticed the fine print in the Gramm Leach Bliley bill. It only passed, got enuff Dems on board, after Dems forced a poison pill that contained an agreement to gut the regulation of the CRA.
Crucial to the passing of this Act was an amendment made to the GLBA, stating that no merger may go ahead if any of the financial holding institutions, or affiliates thereof, received a "less than satisfactory [sic] rating at its most recent CRA exam", essentially meaning that any merger may only go ahead with the strict approval of the regulatory bodies responsible for the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA).[10]. This was an issue of hot contention, and the Clinton Administration stressed that it "would veto any legislation that would scale back minority-lending requirements." [11]

When the two chambers could not agree on a joint version of the bill, the House voted on July 30 by a vote of 241-132 (R 58-131; D 182-1) to instruct its negotiators to work for a law that ensured that consumers enjoyed medical and financial privacy and also "robust competition and equal and non-discriminatory access to financial services and economic opportunities in their communities" (i.e. protection against exclusionary redlining) [4] [5] The bill then moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions. Democrats agreed to support the bill after Republicans agreed to strengthen provisions of the anti-redlining Community Reinvestment Act and address certain privacy concerns; the conference committee then finished its work by the beginning of November.[4] [6] On November 4, the final bill resolving the differences was passed by the Senate 90-8 [7] and by the House 362-57.[8] This legislation was signed into law by Democratic President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999

Read the whole thing
Note that by the time the bill actually passed it had been so perverted by democrat poison pills that it was operationally a democrat bill passing with Republicans overwhelmingly opposed.

(R 58-131; D 182-1)

But if you dance fast enuff Hack maybe people won't notice.
 
803Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 06:28
While you are at it find me even a single regulation Bush sought to 'deregulate' regarding Fannie Mae/Feddie Mac.

I am so sick of this lieing meme that just because republicans are generally pro-deregulating, that they must have somehow deregulated Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac.

Back up that lie you guys keep spreading.
 
804CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 06:58
Baldwin

The point which you are too thick to understand is the Community Reinvestment Act is NOT the main problem. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack is NOT the main problem.

The sub-prime loans were largely given by other agencies which were not regulated by the CRA. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack begged to get a piece of this (what they though was easy) money. Congress did make it easier for them, but because they were later players on the scene, they are actually in better shape than many.

Republican presidents (most notably Reagan and Bush Jr) pushed to deregulate the financial industry. This is what got us sub-prime mortgages that were heavily leveraged in an attempt to get more money. That is the problem. And that clearly is caused by de-regulation.

Trying to pass it off as a problem caused by poor people and minorities and illegal aliens (and whatever other scapegoat group you have) getting home loans is missing the point.

Of course you dont want to get the point. You don't care about reality. You only care about your ideology. You ask strawman questions while neglecting reality.

In reality, it was Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers who fell before the Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack were nationalized. That alone would show that the problem is definitely not Fannie and Freddie in a vaccum bringing everything down with home loans to minorities. But you don't care. You just want to bash the left and remove blame from the right. Reality has no place in your mind.
 
805Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:24
In reality, it was Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers who fell before the Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack were nationalized. That alone would show that the problem is definitely not Fannie and Freddie in a vaccum bringing everything down with home loans to minorities.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

So the order in which companies fail is a direct correlation to whom exactly caused the problem?

Therefore, Merrill Lynch is less culpable than Lehman because they were bought out and Lehman was allowed to fail?
 
806CanadianHack
      ID: 31645103
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:28
It shows the problem is far bigger than Fannie and Freddie. If all it was was a Fannie/Freddie problem as Baldwin claims, they were nationalized and the problem would have been solved.

But many other companies have fallen. There has been a $700 billion ballout - which would not have been necessary for a Fannie/Freddie problem. And still the economic news looks bad.

Anyone like Baldwin who thinks the problem is as simple as loans to minorities brought about by the CRA or deregulation of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mack or whatever strawman Baldwin is pushing at the time being is clearing ignoring reality.
 
807Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:33
Wow, you really believe Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are peripheral players in this. Amazing. Everything I have read says that packages of securities put together by FM/FM are the core of the crisis and the fact that bad loans that they bought up were shuffled into everyone's deck is what is making it almost impossible to fix.

BTW your point that FM/FM are better off than some is underwhelming. They are the biggest beneficiaries of the 'too big to fail' and being uncle sam's favorite bank. Those 'other' guys don't have the benefit of being government sponsored enterprises which is what GSE stands for. Their guilt is in the bad debt they bought up and spread around. How much they were left holding when the music stopped isn't the issue. They were certainly in a better position to know their self-created meltdown was coming. They even cold-called me personally months ago trying to unload bad paper.
 
808CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:37
Baldwin

Have you read that other countries that dont have a Fannie Mae, a Freddie Mack, a Community Reinvestment Act etc. are also experiencing economic problems right now related to falling housing prices and a credit crunch?





 
809Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:43
If all it was was a Fannie/Freddie problem as Baldwin claims, they were nationalized and the problem would have been solved.

Are you simple?

The problem is in the bad debt they already sold everyone and that instantly melted the required Tier one capital Madman has been explaining in the meltdown thread.

How does nationalizing FM/FM solve the problem of bad debt already inserted into other financial institutions?

I'll make it clear for the simpleminded...

An evil wife sureptitiously serves her husband a beer everday after work and unbeknowst to him includes a small portion of antifreeze. Several years later when his organs are shutting down he can confront her and she can just say, 'but I've washed glass out real good today.'? That solves it? FM/FM are just clearing houses basically facilitating the flow of credit. They are like that glass.
 
810Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:47
Have you read that other countries that dont have a Fannie Mae, a Freddie Mack, a Community Reinvestment Act etc. are also experiencing economic problems right now related to falling housing prices and a credit crunch?

This is child's play. Have you never heard the expression 'When America catches a cold, _______ developes pnuemonia'?
 
811CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:55
That expression is not the reality.

Why dont you explain why Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack having problems means the European Union must bailout its credit/financial industry? A little more detail than a catch phrase is necessary if you want to be taken seriously.

 
812Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 07:56
We really need to start a CRA/Fannie Mae thread or take this to the meltdown thread.

Back on topic...Obama in a relatively unguarded moment in 2001 discussing wealth redistribution.
 
813Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:00
CH

No it really is that simple. A meltdown in America melts everyone's markets and banks down. Japan's market is melting down. Russia's market took a 10% hit the other day. That 'catch-phrase' is exactly what any economic expert would tell you right off the bat to explain it.
 
814CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:04
So Baldwin is arguing that Fannie Mae destroyed the economy in (for example) Iceland?

And he keeps a straight face when he does it.
 
815Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:16
Bad debt contained in the portfolios of banks, hedge funds, insurance companies, etc is indeed the cause. Yes indirectly of the whole world's meltdown. Yes Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac as the 'guarantors' of America's free flowing credit caused this problem.

They are not simply just another bank. They were created to facilitate the free flow of credit. The lack of free flow of credit is the problem.

In other news, for lack of a nail the war was lost.
 
816CanadianHack
      ID: 31645103
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:29
Bad debt contained in the portfolios of banks, hedge funds, insurance companies, etc is indeed the cause.

Here is the point we agree upon.

It is de-regulation that allowed the mess. It allowed the proliferation of this bad debt.

Blaming Fannie and Freddie alone (or the CRA or whatever your strawman of the current post might be) completely misses the point. A point you clearly understand because you said it.

The problem was the proliferation of bad debt. De-regulation allowed that.

You pick on only the parts of that debt that suit your ideology are remain blind to the vast majority of it.



 
817Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:34
GH

Read and reread until you fully grasp.
By purchasing and securitizing mortgages, Fannie Mae facilitates liquidity in the primary mortgage market.

Fannie Mae was founded as a government agency in the wake of the Great Depression in 1938, as part of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's New Deal in order to facilitate liquidity within the mortgage market.

As of 2008, Fannie Mae and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac) owned or guaranteed about half of the U.S.'s $12 trillion mortgage market.[5]
Peripheral...sure it is.

Banks and insurance companies are only legitimized by the fact that they hold secure assets. A huge chunk of their assets are tied up in securities sold to them [or FM prefered stock] by FM/FM and those securities held tripple A ratings because FM/FM has the backing of the government.

All that legitimacy vanished when FM/FM stood naked and exposed and now every lending institution is scared to death to lend to anyone because they aren't sure anyone else is a legitimate solvent institution. Further they are hoarding their assets to make sure they can withstand runs on their own institutions.

 
818Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:39
Fine. We have a frozen credit crisis. If it wasn't the government sponsored entity invented to guarantee free flowing credit, who else was supposed to do it?
 
819Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:44
Who else remotely bore a share similar to theirs?

Sally Mae? Ginnie Mae? You tell me. I can't even begin to think of any other villain.
 
820CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 08:54
The story of how deregulation is the issue part one and par two.

Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack as you state existed since 1938. The problem is clearly not their existence. What changed? The lack of oversight in the financial sector as a whole which allowed for more bad loans and much more leveraging of these loans.

The idea that you are attacking that I claim FM/FM are bystanders is wrong. Its a strawman. You are good at them. Its one of the few things you do well.

What I am saying - and it is quite clear - that FM/FM are NOT the problem. The Community Redevelopment Act is definitely not the problem. If it was we would see foreclosures happening almost exclusively in the inner cities. In fact, its the new suburb that is hit hardest.

You attack CRA because it allows you to attack Democrats. You ignore the problem of de-regulation because it is one of your ideals. You are unable to question your ideology. You believe that if only the market is free enough we would all get rich. Reality is showing that if the market is free enough a few greedy people n Wall Street can ruin the economy for the rest of us. There has to be enough regulation to prevent that.
 
821Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 09:00
Anyone like Baldwin who thinks the problem is as simple as loans to minorities brought about by the CRA or deregulation of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mack or whatever strawman Baldwin is pushing at the time being is clearing ignoring reality.

I doubt he really thinks that, it's just the only way he can put the entire blame on Democrats. He actually backpeddled in #786, begrudgingly admitting that speculators and voodoo mortgages like ARMs were contributing factors.

The point I tried to make is that you can't point to either political party and say, "You're to blame." Both parties are responsible to some extent, but this isn't something where it's as simple as assigning blame to either Democrats or Republicans.



The bottom line now is to recognize which properties are toxic. Baldwin would have us believe that the vast majority are low income properties where unqualified poor and minorities walked away after forcing banks to make poison loans. Maybe that's the case in Chicago, but I doubt it. A foreclosure is only bad when the mortgage holder is unable to sell the property. Look around your city and see what properties are next to impossible to move. Are they concentrated in poor and minority neighborhoods, or are they concentrated in the more upscale and newer subdivisions?

Las Vegas is a good example of the problem, as it has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the country. Several years ago, Vegas was the fastest growing metro in the nation. Homebuilding was booming, properties were appreciating so quickly that every flipper in the country descended on the city as if it were Mecca. Is there anyone out there who thinks these homebuilders were building low income housing to sell to anyone with a pulse, besides Baldwin?

I've asked Baldwin numerous times to supply data to support his claim that banks being forced to provide mortgages to unqualified poor and minorities is the root of the mortgage crisis. All that would entail is providing details that the vast majority of toxic properties - (foreclosures that are nearly impossible to resell) are concentrated in lower class and inner city neighborhoods. That data will not be forthcoming, because the premise is false.


 
822Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 09:17
Show me where the republicans deregulated Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac. When are you ever gonna?

You ignore the problem of de-regulation because it is one of your ideals.

No, I want the CRA abolished and reason restored. And I don't ever want to see another democrat on their board earning hundreds of millions a year, cooking the books to get bonuses and hiding their losses to preserve their jobs and reputations.
 
823CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 09:29
Once again, you are putting up a strawman.

It is widespread de-regulation of the financial sector as a whole that is the problem. That is what created things like adjustable rate mortgages, subprime mortgages and the heavy leveraging of these.

You limit the scope to FM/FM because that is what you must do in order to attempt to falsely blame Democrats.
 
824Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 09:29
The problem is not that Armando Montelongo is overextended.

The problem is not merely ARMs and if it was that wouldn't be a partisan issue. Prove me wrong on that if you can.

The problem surely is lowered conforming loan standards at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Whether or not we are talking about ARM's or sub-primes or both.

The republicans did not deregulate FM/FM and cause those lowered standards and you continue to repeat that meme without a shred of proof.

Yes the bubble collapse is highly responsible and is not overwhelmingly about the poor or even a partisan issue in the main, but Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae's part of it was about the poor because they had deliberately followed the instructions to make risky loans half their portfolio.

And they were supposed to be the anchor assuring credit liquidity.
 
825Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 09:32
Please locate the origin of ARMs as a significant part of the market. I'd honestly like to get to the bottom of that and it's about time you actually did some research instead of juust cut-n-pasting posts from other forums.
 
826CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 09:44
Baldwin in post 825:Please locate the origin of ARMs as a significant part of the market. I'd honestly like to get to the bottom of that and it's about time you actually did some research instead of juust cut-n-pasting posts from other forums.

Baldwin in post 791: Obviously you've been around boards before and know how to assign 'make-work' projects to your opponent. This particular tactic is the 'wild-goose-chase' tactic. Not that there aren't actually wild geese out there but make sure your opponent actually has to go hunt one particular one down, not that it would convince you, not that he is in your employment, just to wear him down and run around not doing more productive things.

 
827Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 10:04
It is widespread de-regulation of the financial sector as a whole that is the problem. That is what created things like adjustable rate mortgages, subprime mortgages and the heavy leveraging of these.
- Hack

No, you do not get to blame republicans for creating ARM's without a shred of evidence.
 
828boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 10:07
Reality is showing that if the market is free enough a few greedy people n Wall Street can ruin the economy for the rest of us. There has to be enough regulation to prevent that. And the greedy people at the bottom are not to blame too?

Yes maybe regulatory measures would have stopped this crisis, but not the next one. Regulations are great in theory but how are you going to regulate what you do not even know what is coming next? Human ingenuity is designed to get past regulations. Look at prohibition it turned a nation of teetotalers into alcoholics and Russia that turned Organized Crime to avoid communist economic policy. Unless you regulate everything regulations are reactionary at best.
 
829CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 10:08
Do you see the word republican in your quote? I don't. Its de-regulation I blame.

De-regulation allows the creation of new methods to put people in bad mortgages and worse than that many new methods to leverage those mortgages. It is the leveraging of those mortgages that is the real problem.
 
830Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 10:42
Republican presidents (most notably Reagan and Bush Jr) pushed to deregulate the financial industry. This is what got us sub-prime mortgages that were heavily leveraged in an attempt to get more money. That is the problem. And that clearly is caused by de-regulation. - CH#804

Stop squirming like a toad and prove your points, provide a source.
 
831CanadianHack
      ID: 747218
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 10:53
What are you denying? That de-regulation was something that was done under the Reagan and Bush administrations? That should be obvious

Reagan

Principal mission was government deregulation
Reagan’s principal mission in the presidency, he thought, was to rein in a government he considered an obstacle to economic opportunity and human liberty. His complaint that the federal government had “over-spent, over-estimated, and over-regulated” changed little over the years, but the audience for this message grew steadily larger during the 1970s. Regulatory reform had the status of consensus by the time Reagan took office.
OMB led the deregulatory charge, seeking to accomplish through executive action what another administration might have attempted through the legislative process. OMB [required] strict cost-benefit analyses of all federal regulations, [and was accused of] “ideological arithmetic” that ignored the cost in lives and illnesses.

Reagan might have been able to do more if his approach to deregulation had been less overtly pro-business. Instead, he aroused the hostility of liberals with appointments that critics likened to naming a fox to guard a chicken coop.


Bush

This is understandable. Over the last eight years, the Bush-Cheney administration has adopted a laissez-faire policy based on a let-them-eat-cake ideology. It has pushed for economic deregulation throughout the government, beginning with the de-fanging of the Securities and Exchange Commission. It has pursued an aggressive policy of deregulation of the large global investment banks, which were basically left to self-regulate themselves and allowed to build up the largest mountain of flimsy backed debt instruments and risky financial derivative products ever seen in history. It did the same thing for other regulatory agencies such as the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the Environmental Protection Agency, worker safety and transportation agencies.

So Reagan and Bush both pushed de-regulation of the financial industry. You already knew that.
 
832Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:00
I'm waiting for Baldwin to explain how the "rent-a-mob" ACORN guys forced the investment banks into creating all these credit swaps with the encouragement of Clinton.

Your patience and clarity are unfortunately wasted, Canadian Hack.

Nice try in attempting to change the subject in 44's thread, but it won't work.
 
833Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:23
Obama himself focuses almost all his answer about the causes of this mess to the problem of spreading the risk of high risk loans to people who otherwise would not be able to afford a home, to all corners of the globe.



 
834Perm Dude
      ID: 43956286
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:29
1998 was a good year. In fact, it is the year (and Administration) we can trace all our problems to...
 
835Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:30
SZ

'Acorn guys' destroyed the value of security packages that were being sold as, and used as tripple A investments used as the core measurement of financial strength at the base of all the big financial institutions.
 
836Perm Dude
      ID: 43956286
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:44
Yes, they were forced into it, weren't they? Damn them--they only made billions when they could have made, well, billions.

You've got no evidence that the current financial crisis in the financial markets is as a result of the concurrent easing of credit by banks and Freddie and Fannie. And why is that? Because you aren't able to distinguish whether bank practices at the time (which were easing lending rules even faster and farther than Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae) would have expanded to cover what were FM/FM underwritten loans anyway.

In fact, for years FM/FM were acting as a brake against an overheated housing bubble, as their rules (even after they were eased) were more stringent than non-FM/FM rules. But you aren't writing about that, are you?

What you have is a tenuous connection to the Clinton Administration, which is enough for you to forget yourself.

From George Packer, worth posting in full:

A roundup (via Andrew Sullivan) of conservative anti-Obama blogging during the election. Much of it has appeared on popular right-wing Web sites, including National Review Online, disclosing the "news" that Bill Ayers wrote "Dreams from My Father," Obama was involved in domestic terrorism during the South Africa divestment campaign of the early 1980s, Michelle Obama used the word "whitey" in recorded conversation with Louis Farrakhan, Obama has had a female lover as well as a gay lover with a criminal record, he was fed answers during the first debate via a clear plastic device in his ear, and his birth certificate was forged, casting doubt on his citizenship (which is why he's now in Hawaii to preserve the cover-up, not to visit his very ill grandmother).

Wading for a few minutes through the sewage of these Web sites reminds me uncannily of the time I've spent having political discussions in certain living rooms and coffee shops in Baghdad. The mental atmosphere is exactly the same--the wild fantasies presented as obvious truth, the patterns seen by those few with the courage and wisdom to see, the amused pity for anyone weak-minded enough to be skeptical, the logic that turns counter-evidence into evidence and every random piece of information into a worldwide conspiracy. Above all, the seething resentment, the mix of arrogance and impotent rage that burns at the heart of the paranoid style in politics.

The problem isn't lack of education--it's that of a self-isolating political subculture gone rancid. I heard an Iraqi engineer claim that American soldiers allowed Kuwaitis to steal hundreds of Iraqi cars as revenge for the first Gulf War. I heard a Shiite cleric argue that the Kerry campaign was behind suicide bombings. Bloggers like Andrew McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor who peddled the Ayers theory, and Ann Althouse, a law professor who pushed the plastic-device story, hold diametrically opposed views to those of Islamists and Arab nationalists. But their habits of mind are just the same.

It will only get worse if Obama wins.


I disagree with the last point of his, but the rest is dead on.
 
837Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:51
PD

There was a very sharp turn for the worse in 1998 and 1999 and indeed we can trace the worst of this to that administration. Which administration did you think produced the Cisneros and Cuomos and Gorelicks and Raines and Johnsons?
 
838boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:55
PD - good link, though i would argue this mentality began way before this election cycle. Look at how many people take it as fact that Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. No matter who wins this mentality is not going to go away, but i find it to hard to believe it would get worse.
 
839Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 11:58
The problem isn't lack of education--it's that of a self-isolating political subculture gone rancid. - PD's link

Just how much have you increased your visit time to daily kos, Huffington Post and talking points memo during this campaign, PD? You sorta live over there and just troll by here lately?

 
840sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 12:28
Why Boldwin do you want the CRA abolished, when ALL the law requires is that lenders comply with TILA (Truth in Lending Act), FCRA (Fair Credit Reporting Act), FACT Act (Fairness and Accurate Credit Transactions Act)? It prohibits redlining and provides for civil relief on the part of citizens if civil laws are broken. THAT, is what CRA does.
 
841Perm Dude
      ID: 43956286
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 12:38
#838: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think the election tends to focus, and force into the open, some of these yahoos.

#839: Actually, I very rarely vist Huffington Post and DK. I do visit TPM, mostly because of their crack investigative work (they were on the Troopergate case months before anyone else). Pretty much daily I visit TPM, Andrew Sullivan, Glen Reynolds. And MITH. Ironically, my own blogging has suffered lately, but mostly because of a work crunch and more demands on my time as a volunteer with the Obama campaign. Where you, in particular, would be surprised at how little hate there is at the grassroots level.
 
842nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 15:16


Anyone trying to pin the current problems on just one of the parties is a charlatan.

There is plenty of blame to go around with both parties and all past Presidents and to chase your tail down a hole about who the exact culprit is, is IMHO a waste of time.

The last 30 posts in this link have been a monumental waste of time and further evidence that this forum is just a bunch of partisans who will defend their party while they are sitting in a sinking, burning, rotting ship.

 
843Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 17:41
Nerve

I am sick of the pernicious ratchets that favor Dems.

One of the many is that any problem with a republican component is always a republican disaster. Any problem that is in whole or in the main a democrat problem, everyone even republicans rush to magnanimously share the blame.

A lotta dems here have spent a lotta time combing the internet [including forums similar to this one with lots of other dems struggling to answer the sorts of charges I am levelling] for any trace of republican blame in this and they have come up with squat.

In general, human government is a disaster, and generically all sides are to blame for the Titanic, just so far as 'we' all can demonstrate, this particular crack in the Titanic wasn't delivered by a republican. [unless you want to blame the 58 out of 189 republicans who voted for Gramm Leach Bliley after poison pill insertion]

If CH or anyone else can prove republicans invented ARM's I'll concede this argument and blame both sides. They keep making the charge and then refuse to find it.



 
844Perm Dude
      ID: 43956286
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 17:50
LOL! Yes, in order to refute your charge that Democrats are entirely to blame for the housing crisis we need to prove Republicans invented ARMs, and then you'll allow Republicans to share some blame.

And if we show that Republicans invented both greed and money you might grudgingly give Republicans a 51% share of the blame, I suppose.

 
845Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 18:00
PD

Only if you can prove republicans significantly made human nature more greeedy than it would normally be.
 
846Perm Dude
      ID: 43956286
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 18:08
Republicans led the charge to deregulation, Baldwin. Do you deny this? Republicans love to quote Adam Smith on all things economic (but in particular when advocating for "free market" solutions) but conveniently skip the part of his writings when Smith spoke about the need for regulation (even arguing that regulation is necessary to promote the public good in economic measures).

You were cheering on the Republicans as they marched toward deregulation and privatization. Then you look in the rubble for some Republicans not acting so (when you were arguing the opposite at the time) in order to blame Democrats for doing what you were in fact doing.

Your need to blame Democrats is pathological, Baldwin. Combined with a martyr complex and inflexibility and you've got the makings of a bitter old man.
 
847Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 18:28
Add another pro-terrorist to Obama's close circle of friends. Famously anti-Israel professor Rashid Khalidi...
 
848Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 19:31
Hawaii governor seals Obama's birth documents so obviously there is nothing to hide there.

Productive trip to visit his ailing grandmother.
 
849Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 21:14
BTW earlier in this thread I said any expert would use the 'When America catches a cold,_________ catches pnuemonia' 'catchphrase' to explain why other countries' markets are collapsing [despite CH's point they don't have fannie mae]

In fact I just ran across the pre-eminent expert, the one who actually predicted all this, using that 'catchphrase' to explain why other markets around the world are collapsing...
``Things are getting very ugly also in the emerging markets,'' Roubini said. ``We used to say when the U.S. catches a cold, the rest of the world sneezes. Well, the U.S. now has chronic and persistent pneumonia. It's becoming a mess in emerging markets.''
 
850Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 21:19
A little more detail than a catch phrase is necessary if you want to be taken seriously. - he mocked

Well buddy, Nouriel Roubini is taken so seriously that he has entered self-fullfilling prophesy territory. That guy could close any market he chose to tommorrow just by predicting it's close today.
 
851Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 21:25
#848

What a dishonest piece of BS. I couldn't get a copy of my own son's birth certificate because his mother and I weren't married when he was born, and for some reason I was left off the birth certificate - even though I had full custody awarded by a court in the same state. So, when the WND clowns report that

Those listed as entitled to obtain a copy of an original birth certificate include the person born, or "registrant" according to the legal description from the governor's office, the spouse or parent of the registrant, a descendant of the registrant, a person having a common ancestor with the registrant, a legal guardian of the registrant, or a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant

because it's the law.

For WND to add

the source told WND confidentially the motivation for withholding the original birth certificate was political, although the source refused to disclose whether there was any information on the original birth certificate that would prove politically embarrassing to Obama

shows what a scum bucket rag Farah is running.

(
 
852Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 21:31
shows what a scum bucket rag Farah is running.

also shows you the kind of people Baldwin is willing to associate with. he'll associate with some major league cretins, so, presumably, he is one.

at least using his own standards as measurement.
 
853Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 21:37
WND honestly listed all this caveats.

And we should all have our heads examined for willingly standing next to Tree.
 
854Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 21:47
WND honestly listed all this caveats.

I suppose you think this headline is honest since you displayed it prominently.

Hawaii governor seals Obama's birth documents

It's a lie.
 
855Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 22:23
Stuff the MSM covers up...
Former Iraqi official Nadhmi Auchi bankrolled his longtime friend and business partner, Syrian immigrant and Chicago slumlord Tony Rezko, who in turn bankrolled Obama's political career before being convicted this year of fraud.

That much is known. What's not known is whether any Auchi funds aided Obama's 2005 purchase of a $1.65 million mock-Georgian mansion in the leafy Kenwood district of Chicago. On the same day, Rezko purchased an adjacent lot from the same seller.

In addition, Rezko personally toured the house with Obama before their same-day purchase of the adjoining parcels. He also advised Obama on negotiating his end of the deal.

Obama ended up buying his side of the property for $300,000 below the asking price, while Rezko, through his wife, paid full price, $625,000, for the adjacent vacant lot.

Just three weeks earlier, Rezko – who at the time was under indictment and virtually bankrupt – received a $3.5 million wire transfer from Auchi, his "close friend" and partner, who smuggled weapons to Saddam's regime.


Illinois State Senate President Emil Jones Jr. and his protege Barack Obama

A year before their real estate deal, Obama, fresh off his U.S. Senate win, attended a dinner that Rezko hosted honoring Auchi at the Four Seasons hotel in downtown Chicago. There, he met with Rezko, as well as his career mentor, Emil Jones, president of the Illinois senate, where Obama had previously served. Jones also is close to Auchi.

While Obama acknowledges attending the 2004 event, he claims having no memory of meeting Auchi there.

"I just don't recall," he said, even though the dinner was held in Auchi's honor and Rezko had invited Obama to meet him and other friends.

What's more, Rezko that same year had held another reception for Auchi, this time at his mansion; and according to court testimony in Rezko's trial, both Barack and Michelle Obama attended the reception and met Auchi.

Auchi at the time was under investigation by the U.S. government. The Pentagon had accused him of perpetrating fraud in Iraq, and he was subsequently barred from future entry into the U.S.

Auchi turned to Rezko to lobby several politicians in an unsuccessful bid to reinstate his visa.

It's not clear if Obama, a vocal Iraq war critic, was one of those politicians. But the senator did intervene on behalf of another shady Iraqi official at Rezko's request.

Emil Jones and Nadhmi Auchi

After Aiham Alsammarae was jailed in Iraq for fraud in 2006, Obama's Senate office sought information from the State Department about his status and relayed it to his family living in Chicago.

Alsammarae, a dual Iraqi-U.S. citizen who donated the maximum $2,300 to Obama's campaign, attended the same Four Seasons reception for Auchi attended by Obama.

A 2004 Pentagon report identified Auchi as an Iraqi billionaire and global arms dealer "who behind the facade of legitimate business, served as Saddam Hussein's principle international financial manipulator and bag man."

The report states that "significant and credible evidence has been developed that Nadhmi Auchi has engaged in unlawful activities," such as bribing "foreign governments and individuals prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom to turn opinion against the American-led mission to remove Saddam Hussein."


Obama and top fundraiser Tony Rezko, a business partner and close friend of Auchi

He also helped "arrange for significant theft from the U.N. Oil-for-Food Program to smuggle weapons and dual-use technology into Iraq."

Since October 2002, Obama has publicly opposed Operation Iraqi Freedom, which ousted Saddam Hussein. Auchi was a cousin of the executed dictator. - WND
 
856Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 22:27
PV

So what rational other explanation is there for Obama to refuse to release it to the public and why doesn't the public have the right to proof he meets the constitutional requirements to run?

Why doesn't the state of Hawaii care to settle this?
 
857Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 00:10
And we should all have our heads examined for willingly standing next to Tree.

sorry Baldwin, i'm not the one spewing out crazy ramblings and fear tactics, being borderline racist with some of them.

that's you.
 
858Perm Dude
      ID: 179362822
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 00:40
Why doesn't the state of Hawaii care to settle this?

Because they already have. Why won't you accept the truth?
 
859Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 09:06
Obviously they haven't. Natural fact.
 
860walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 09:55
C'mon with the melodrama. This "friends of" stuff has as much to do with their differences as WMD did with us going to war in Iraq.
 
861Perm Dude
      ID: 33941297
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 09:57
"Natural fact"?

The only natural fact is that you haven't accepted the truth when it is in front of you. Naturally.

Hawai'i doesn't need to get involved--there is no controversy except the continued refusal of the far right to accept the truth as truth. How wacko.
 
862Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 10:18
PD - to be fair, it's not all of the right - just those members like Baldwin who fear a black man with an arabic-sounding name becoming president.
 
863Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 10:36
It will be in front of me when it is released.

Remember that you, PD are relying on the representations made by FactCheck.Org which is owned by and funded by...wait for it...

The Annenberg Foundation which Bill Ayers helped found and to which Bill Ayers made sure Obama was appointed chairman of.

And this 'proof' is why anyone who questions Obama's 'birth record' wears a tin hat.

Riiiight.
 
864boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 10:51
Don't worry Boldwin you can be the first to say i told you so on nov 4th...or be the first to forget the subject.
 
865Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 10:51
And that, Tree...you moron, is a substantial post, as opposed to the content free name-calling and booing that you believe worthy of clicking the post button with.
 
866Perm Dude
      ID: 33941297
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 10:54
You just keep digging until you find something that can be dressed up like a conspiracy, then you stop, is that it?

The Annenberg Foundation was not founded by Bill Ayers, but was founded by (yeah, wait for it): Walter H. Annenberg. Hence the name.

His widow (who still runs the foundation) has donated large amounts to McCain and endorsed John McCain for president. And you are saying that her organization is hiding the facts about Obama?

It is a sad day when you are down to the level of trying to smear FactCheck.org about Barack Obama's birth certificate.

I'm done with you, Baldwin. You crossed over into wacko territory some time ago.
 
867Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 10:58
The Annenberg Foundation which Bill Ayers helped found and to which Bill Ayers made sure Obama was appointed chairman of.

is that the same Annenberg Foundation who's founder and chairperson - Leonore Annenberg - endorsed John McCain in this 2008 election presidential election?

by golly, it is! it is!

Obama, by the way, was NEVER the Chairman of the Annenberg Foundation, and Bill Ayers didn't have anything to do with the creation of it.

Obama was the chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Project, which while PARTIALLY funded by the Annenberg Foundation, is not the same thing.

the CAC was a project in Chicago to help reform the public schools, and the Annenberg Foundation gave a 2-to-1 matching grant to help support it.

Ayers, was just one of the co-authors of the CAC's winning grant proposal - it was someone else - a woman named Deborah Leff - who recommended Obama to chair the CAC, and it was another woman - Patricia Graham - who told Obama she wanted him to chair the CAC.

Chicago, btw, was one of NINE urban areas to get grant money from the Annenberg Foundation - along with places like NYC, LA, Detroit, Houston. Additionally, five smaller towns like Chattanooga and Salt Like City also received grants.

so, either you're wearing a tin hat in post 863, completely ill-informed with your information, or, as usual, flat out lying.
 
868Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 11:03
When Obama made his first run for political office, articles in both the Chicago Defender and the Hyde Park Herald featured among his qualifications his position as chairman of the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a foundation where Ayers was a founder and guiding force. Obama assumed the Annenberg board chairmanship only months before his first run for office, and almost certainly received the job at the behest of Bill Ayers. During Obama’s time as Annenberg board chairman, Ayers’s own education projects received substantial funding. Indeed, during its first year, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge struggled with significant concerns about possible conflicts of interest. With a writ to aid Chicago’s public schools, the Annenberg challenge played a deeply political role in Chicago’s education wars, and as Annenberg board chairman, Obama clearly aligned himself with Ayers’s radical views on education issues. With Obama heading up the board and Ayers heading up the other key operating body of the Annenberg Challenge, the two would necessarily have had a close working relationship for years (therefore “exchanging ideas on a regular basis”). So when Ayers and Dorhn hosted that kickoff for the first Obama campaign, it was not a random happenstance, but merely further evidence of a close and ongoing political partnership. Of course, all of this clearly contradicts Obama’s dismissal of the significance of his relationship with Ayers. - National Review
 
869Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 11:05
Tree

See? You actually can do research when you are sufficiently motivated. See how much we have learned?
 
870Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 11:07
Since we all hate divisiveness so, can we all agree at least that Obama and Ayers were more than just neighbors?
 
871Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 11:14
And that it was undoubtedly not accidental that Obama chose an Annenberg entity to display but not release information he is withholding from the public?
 
872Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 11:17
post 865 - nice way to name call, and, well, nice way to pat yourself on the back over lies you're trying to spread.

post 869 - nice way to condescend.

post 870 - nice way to change the subject.

the reality here is that you're an ass of the highest degree. and, you're wrong more often than you're right.

you've proven yourself not above deception or lies to attempt to make a point. and when caught in those lies, you change the subject.

you're a tiny little desperate man, who sees nearly everything he says disproven rather quickly and easily, such as posts 866 and 867.

you were taken to school once again.
 
873Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 11:47
From the link in #848

Friday, U.S. Federal judge Richard Barclay Surrick, a Clinton appointee, dismissed a lawsuit brought by Pennsylvania attorney Phillip J. Berg who alleged Obama was not a U.S. "natural born" citizen and therefore ineligible for the presidency under the specifications of the U.S. Constitution, under Article II, Section 1.

Berg told WND last week he does not have a copy of a Kenyan birth certificate for Obama that he alleges exists.


Philip Berg? The same Philip Berg that initiated several RICO lawsuits against George W Bush over
9/11?

Yep.

Nice to see WND giving Berg credibility. They must feel his 9/11 lawsuits hold the same type of newsworthy attention.

Uh, no.

On this fifth September 11 anniversary, some who hate Bush will gather in New York to profane the memory of the 3,000 victims. They will try to convince the country that 9/11 was not an attack by Islamic terrorists, but criminal mass murder by the Bush administration. Amazingly, fully one-third of Americans now believe that the government is guilty of some conspiracy concerning 9/11. Everything liberals believe about foreign policy was proven to be disastrously false on 9/11. Therefore, liberals must somehow deny that 9/11 actually happened.

As is often the case, the 9/11 story in WND was so rife with disinformation and lies that they were forced to admit it publicly.

Without a doubt the most distasteful element of Moseley's attack is his claim that Professor Steven Jones, in responding to a question at the American Scholars Symposium conference, "was calling for the violent overthrow of the government."

After carefully analyzing video archives of every one of Steven Jones' appearances at the conference, including round table panel discussions and Jones' own speech, we can find no evidence that Jones made statements even anywhere near approaching this context.
link

So, to review, when Philip Berg challenges Obama's birth records, he's worthy of praise, support and coverage from A Free Press
For A Free People.

But when Berg challenges the official version of 9/11, he's just one of the liberals who must somehow deny that 9/11 actually happened.

Ironically(not really), Baldwin presents his WND link(a WorldNetDaily exclusive!!) as if the fallacious headline is some newsworthy item, the product of stealth investigative journalism ignored by the devious and power elite-controlled MSM, which we're informed at the beginning of #855 is covering up stuff.

It's really hard for me to take you seriously as a media analyst when you promote WND as a serious source when they clearly skew their reporting to fit their radical agenda, irrespective of accuracy or honesty.
 
874Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 12:18
The cabal that put together 9/11 is well worthy of investigation, and kudos to Berg. Hey, Rush and WND aren't always right, especially when they are dodging evidence of conspiracy that includes an american component. Deep wading is only done selectively and with great caution when your career is on the line.

Even if Berg were wrong on the first point, what bearing would that have on the second point? People cannot both hold some wrong and some correct views?
 
875sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 12:30
People cannot both hold some wrong and some correct views?

That from a poster who has yet to admit that anything liberal (loosely defined as left of Limbaugh) is not by definition 'evil'?????
 
876Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 12:31
you were taken to school once again. - Tree

Anyone who believes that Factcheck.org is a sufficiently neutral party to be the country's guarantor that Obama is a US born constitutionally qualified candidate, is a wishful thinking fool, after the material I dug up.

It is the Obama forces that have been schooled.

I understand that nothing is on fire until the MSM ministry of truth calls it a fire and that Obama is going to get away with this, but the truth is another matter.
 
877Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 12:49
Anyone who believes that Factcheck.org is a sufficiently neutral party

hey - you're the one that tried to tie the company that puts money into factcheck to obama and ayers, when it turns out that it's really a McCain backer who funds factcheck, and obama and ayers have ZERO to do with the parent company.

again - you either lied, or were wrong. mea culpa on one of them, but don't try to change the argument.
 
878Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 13:15
Even if Berg were wrong on the first point, what bearing would that have on the second point? People cannot both hold some wrong and some correct views?

???
Even if Berg were wrong on the first point what does that have to do with WND blatantly lying?

More from the 2nd link in #873:

On this fifth September 11 anniversary, some who hate Bush will gather in New York to profane the memory of the 3,000 victims. They will try to convince the country that 9/11 was not an attack by Islamic terrorists, but criminal mass murder by the Bush administration. Amazingly, fully one-third of Americans now believe that the government is guilty of some conspiracy concerning 9/11. Everything liberals believe about foreign policy was proven to be disastrously false on 9/11.

The goal is to convince Americans that there are no foreign enemies. We can all drop our guard. Stop defending America. Don't be ready to fight. Such agitprop helps America's enemies to more effectively attack the United States.

Professor Steven Jones of Brigham-Young University accused George Bush of being a dictator, mimicking the preamble of the Declaration of Independence. When asked if violent revolution was necessary, this scientist declared – in front of national TV cameras – that there is no peaceful way to achieve the group's goals. In the context of the question, professor Jones was calling for the violent overthrow of the government.


The first couple of paragraphs are simply ridiculous generic caricatures that only the most distorted minds could contemplate as genuine. The final paragraph is outright lies and slander that WND had to publicly admit had absolutely no basis in reality
WND used lies and distortion in both the Obama birth record story and the 9/11 truth convention story. Does this represent your often promoted 'conservative principles?'


 
879Razor
      ID: 529382710
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 13:24
How deep has Boldwin's research been into McCain's birth records?
 
880Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 13:41
after his lies in 863 were immediately exposed in 866 and 867, what makes you think Baldwin has any interest in doing anything honestly, with McCain or otherwise.

the best part is that he totally ignored the fact his lies were exposed in near-record time.
 
881Perm Dude
      ID: 219432911
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 13:43
I'm afraid papyrus just doesn't last that long down in Panama....
 
883Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:03
Conflating Annenberg Foundation with Chicago Annenberg Challenge Foundation. Now there is a distinction without a difference. The point I made with a sledgehammer was that Annenberg and Obama are connected. They can't be a neutral party.

But what do I expect from trolls who think spelling potato [when your handlers are instructing you to misspell it] is a qualification for vice president?
 
884Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:09
And Annenberg Foundation has lots of related foundations and doubtless interconnected boards of directors. For example Annenberg Public Policy Center of the Annenberg School for Communication, etc., etc.
 
885Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:13
Conflating Annenberg Foundation with Chicago Annenberg Challenge Foundation.

they are two COMPLETELY different entities. do your research.

The point I made with a sledgehammer was that Annenberg and Obama are connected. They can't be a neutral party.

and Annenberg endorsed McCain. what's that have to do with Obama?
 
886Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:23
And no I wouldn't buy it if The Joyce Foundation or the Woods Fund said Obama qualified either.
 
887Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:26
Tree

These foundations have very incestuous boards of directors as we have seen Obama himself recommended to positions on one board from members of other boards of directors of foundations. I would expect that to hold true doubly between related Annenberg foundations.
 
888Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:28
And that McCain was backed by 'Knight Commander' Annenberg's Foundation doesn't reassure me anymore than George Soros' backing of McCain.
 
889Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:45
because you live in your own little insane, bigoted, world of lies you tell yourself and anyone else who will listen. even when wrong, you're not man enough to admit it or accept it.

you're a lost cause. enjoy your abyss of instability, and when this country improves over the next few years with the election of Barack Obama, you'll still be there on the street corner, receiving signal with your tin hat.
 
890walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 14:49
"you'll still be there on the street corner, receiving signal with your tin hat." Oh man, that was funny, sorry.
 
891Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 15:02
Why is it that Tree is so resistant to doing real research and contributing more than snippiness? The guy has enuff time to do it. He can do it for fantasy sports. What gives? Some guys you prod and they turn into MITH. Some guys not so much. Funny insults, well a little is fun, a lot is not.
 
892walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 15:20
I dunno.

Anyway, regarding #848, enough bull already. That WND article is rubbish and McCain himself is now ranting about it, in South Florida, hypocritically. I just read that in 1999 McCain's International Republican Institute contributed $850k to an pro-Palistinian organization founded Khalidi in 1999 (according to the Obama campaign, tax records confirm this)...whereas Obama was at a dinner with the guy (a guy who is highly regarded as a Palistinian expert, not a terrorist). I guess using McCain's own standards, he's a bigger terrorist sympathizer than Obama.

McCain Wants Tape Released (so maybe he should release the donation data)

The point is that these relationships are not Bourne identity collusion and anti-American, on either side, but as long as folks continue to exaggerate them (you know who) and McCain continues to try and scare folks with these stories, then you lower the discourse, raise fears, divide the country and make governing more difficult.

You can either climb on board the fraidy-cat train or not.
 
893Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 15:34
No one is 'dividing America'. America is naturally divided into those people who think socialism and wealth distribution either works best [or works best for their own selfish purposes] and those who don't.

What you really don't want is for people to become aware that that is the issue at stake.

You are well aware that you don't win that argument fair and square. Not today anyway. So you hope to delay that realization till...

...after the election

...after 51 percent of the voters don't pay taxes and will vote for wealth redistribution until it's all gone

...after half of Mexico lives here and votes democratic

...lets all be civil until the revolution.
 
894Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 15:52
Baldwin, here's your answer:

i have ZERO respect for you. you've been proven a liar on these boards, you've shown you have no issue spreading falsehoods and outright lies about people, and you call out others for insults yet have no qualms about insulting others yourself.

you've shown a taste for homophobia, bigotry, xenophobia, a hint of racism, and a slew of other characteristics i find despicable.

when proven wrong, you change the subject, deny what you said is there in clear black and white text, or somehow try and twist it into something completely different than what you originally said.

you're the kind of person who really could contribute more, but doesn't. at one point, even though we disagreed, you at least made sense and were coherent, but in the last 3 months you've descended into a babbling loon.

and then you say some people "you prod and they turn into MITH."

what does that mean? become a good poster that YOU drive away because you're such a prick? because that's what happened to MITH. he got so sick of your crap that he left, leaving this board weaker.

i won't go as far. i like it here, and i think there are a lot of cool people on this forum - some of whom i've never met despite living in the same city, and others who i've had beers with despite being on opposite coasts.

but i will go as far as not bothering to address you anymore. it's an annoying waste of time dealing with a hate-mongering, hypocritical pain in the ass like you. i should have stopped dealing with months ago, but for a small amount of time, it was fun and easy - like shooting fish in a barrel.

in the meantime, enjoy whatever is beaming into your head. it's made for good theatre here for a bit, but now, it's just a bunch of annoying words and gurgling sounds.
 
895Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 18:34
No one is 'dividing America'.

Bullshit. The constant refrain from the right about what and who is anti-American used to be the domain of fringe nuts who worshipped Ann Coulter. Now that's been brought to the forefront of the American political scene with Sarah Palin identifying who and where is pro-America.

Since you regard both these women as goddesses, it's understandable that you don't see this behavior as nationally divisive, and wouldn't admit it even if you did.

We're continually warned that when they[Obama's world of educational and community organizers] use the word hope, they mean hoping for successful marxist pressure, but you fail to want to understand how this rhetoric has enflamed the God, guts and guns crowd. I haven't seen talk of joining militias, armed insurrection, and general desires for violent solutions since the days of the Weather Underground.
This transcends politics; it is a societal issue.

If you think I'm exaggerating, then you haven't perused a thread on FreeRepublic or TownHall lately.
 
896Perm Dude
      ID: 219572916
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 18:59
Palin: Obama wants to appoint judges to confiscate your property.

Apparently she never read the Kelo decision...
 
897Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 19:28
Apparently she never read the Kelo decision...


Remind me, who were the Kelo dissenters?
 
898Perm Dude
      ID: 219572916
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 19:44
Kelo never would have been decided without judges appointed by Republican presidents, MBJ. 3 of 5 were Republican appointees. Those Republican appointments gave sweeping eminent domain powers to local governments.
 
899Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 20:16
Obama would gladly re-nominate any of the Judges in the majority. He would, if he could, remove all the judges in the dissent. If you like Kelo, you'll love Obama's kinda SCOTUS nominee.
 
900Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 21:28
Obama or is it just generic democrat power lust is like the black hole of honesty. Sad, PD, really sad. Speak the truth within your heart.
 
901bibA
      ID: 229262715
      Wed, Oct 29, 2008, 22:35
So MBJ, I can see Boldwin actually believing that Obama would confiscate our property, but do you in fact agree with Palin when she says that he would appoint judges who would "confiscate the property of American citizens"?

That "he’d want to re-write the founding document of our great nation to accomplish his goals"?
 
902Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 03:34
I think the answer lies in the writings of Saul Alinsky and Antonio Gramsci. What he does will be a balance between what they recommended and the pragmatic realities of what he as a politician can accomplish.

Neither of them AKAIK recommended violent sudden revolution and both recommended a slow march thru the institutions converting as many as possible into instruments that deliver hardcore socialism/marxism.

Off the top of my head that obviously involves his SCOTUS appointments. It involves a dance between the radicals he trained and himself as president. "You see what 'the people/mob is demanding', so how can I not deliver it to them'? So it should look like the '60's' only this time with a pliant administrator happily delivering on their every demand 'if he can only get the Dem supermajority to go along'.

Of course it won't really be 'the people' demanding it. It will be paid rent-a-mobs making demands in the name of the people. The MSM will eat it up and go along with the play-acting like a drunk sucking on a bottle of Boone's Farm.

Enuff people trained in Ayer's style education grade schools, pre-kindergarten, after-school programs and in a couple decades even the non-college educated segment of the population will be pod-people like Acorn radicals and the radical studies college crowd.

Just take that template, project it onto whatever issue you want to prognisticate upon, and you can guess pretty accurately what they have planned. Of course throw in a great depression and they won't have to slow march quite so slowly. *cough*
 
903Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 09:23
That "he’d want to re-write the founding document of our great nation to accomplish his goals"? - bibA

He wants to. He's all for reinterpreting the Constitution, inventing an entitlement/requirement to redistribute wealth but he just doesn't think it would be the easiest way to bring it about. Here he discusses this exact thing in 2001.


 
904Perm Dude
      ID: 219572916
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 09:45
Actually, he's arguing the opposite of what you think:

"You know, maybe I'm showing my bias here as a legislator as well as a law professor, but, you know, I'm not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. You know, the institution just isn't structured that way." He later added, "You know, the court's just not very good at it, and politically, it's just -- it's very hard to legitimize opinions from the court in that regard. So, I mean, I think that, although, you can craft theoretical justifications for it legally -- you know, I think you can, any three of us sitting here could come up with a rationale for bringing about economic change through the courts -- I think that, as a practical matter, our institutions just are poorly equipped to do it."

His argument is not only the opposite of what you say it is (no surprise there) but is the conservative judicial argument that law is best sprung from the people up rather than the judges down.

The fact is, Obama never talks about redistribution of wealth except to say that the Warren Court never got into that (and used that as an example of how the Warren Court wasn't as radical as has been characterized), and to point out that doing so through the courts is a bad idea. What a surprise--that's the opposite of what you say he is saying. He goes on to say that liberals have overrelied upon the courts to make societal changes.

The thrust of Obama's argument, in fact, has nothing to do with wealth. It has to do with rights.
 
905Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 10:02
Obama is a key sponsor of legislation already passed [aparently with globalist George Bush's blessing] that commits America to hand over 800 Billion Dollars to the rest of the world, as well as [hard to believe] commits the next president to go along with Kyoto, and other pernicious globalist projects.

800 Billion here and 800 Billion there and pretty soon you are talking about some serious money.

But spending money here at home is what he's all about when he goes off about isolationism.

Politicians will just say any impossible deceptive thing.
 
906boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 10:32
No one is 'dividing America'.

Bullshit. The constant refrain from the right about what and who is anti-American used to be the domain of fringe nuts who worshipped Ann Coulter. Now that's been brought to the forefront of the American political scene with Sarah Palin identifying who and where is pro-America.


don't put the blame of this one on just one side it takes 2 to divide. When it becomes acceptable to decorate your house with the lynching of VP candidate(or anyone) there are some serious problems with this country. when you define you politics by hate we all lose.
 
907Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 10:57
Messiah Complex

You too can be converted.

 
908Perm Dude
      ID: 219572916
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 11:00
That's a real tire-swinging argument, boikin. The Republican strategy for years now has been to parse out and demonize Democrats in order to capture a small majority to rule. Even anectdotal "evidence" doesn't rebut that the hate being spewed is mostly coming from the Right.

We see it in the current camaign very clearly. Do you genuinely think that if McCain had the money to do a half hour infomercial that he'd have made it about himself and his plans, as Obama did last night? McCain almost certainly would have made a long series of negative associations about Obama, interspaced and slathered with the soothing political lotion of "experience" and "honor" that only he could provide to fix these problems Obama would make worse.

Negative campaigning is all about division and the exploitation of differences. McCain has mimicked the Republican strategy, running on ten years now, of dividing "real America" from "Liberals."

Which candidate is the one talking about inclusiveness and which one is talking about divisions? Old anecdotes aside, identity politics has been sharpened by Republicans. It is no coincidence that they'll get their butts handed to them in a few days as a result.
 
909walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 12:36
I also agree with PD. I think the Dems are not blameless about divisiveness, but it is not even close which party relies on identity politics and runs nastier, more personal and meaner campaigns. The recent trends started with Newt's approach to Clinton, and then continued with Bush/Rove and has continued throughout the Bush presidency and now we see it in an awful way with McCain and Palin. I think McCain's heart is not into the negative campaigning, but he's doing it non-stop and it seems that he feels he has no choice. Palin seems willing to say anything to stir up her crowds, and it's ugly. The latest is that Obama would take away your freedom. Oh, and the ties to Rashidi, of which McCain has far greater ties.

Obama's campaign is not devoid of neg tactics, but it's always a matter of degree, and it seems that the intensity, frequency and personal nature of the Palin & McCain comments against Obama are far greater than what Obama says about McCain and Palin. It's not even close.

This behavior on behalf of Palin, and to a lesser extent, McCain is what exacerbates divisiveness. Now we have folks at their rallies yelling socialist, terrorist, muslim, etc. This is not helpful. We do not have folks at Obama rallies yelling "dictator, kill him, fascist, puppet lady" etc.
 
910Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 13:34
I think the Dems are not blameless about divisiveness, but it is not even close which party relies on identity politics and runs nastier, more personal and meaner campaigns.

You guys just whip out the race card and "The Bradley Effect" instead.
 
911boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 13:35
PD, Walk i was making reference to attitudes by the general public. Not about the political campaigning tactics. And walk i have heard people yelling these words "dictator, kill him, fascist, puppet lady" etc. I think the point where i thought things had gone to far was at an evolution/creationism debate last week when instead of using science and logic to disprove the creationist the speaker resorted to jokes and pictures of Bush. I am sure that plays to his assumed audience but as someone who was just interested in the science it comes of amateurish and divisive. I was for Obama till a week ago until I saw something on Obama and McCains environmental policies and i realized that Obama is no more a profit that McCain is a demon. they were both politicians spreading false hopes and false fears, neither understanding the causes or the real solutions to problems or at least not admitting it as to show weakness.

Yes, maybe the republicans throw the first stone, but sky is so dark with the throwing of stones i can no longer see the sky.
 
912Perm Dude
      ID: 219572916
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 14:10
You guys just whip out the race card and "The Bradley Effect" instead.

You guys?

[There is no Bradley Effect, BTW. Never was].
 
913boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 14:23
[There is no Bradley Effect, BTW. Never was]. was it just bad polling? or just a coincidence.
 
914walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 14:39
The Dems whip out the race card as if there are not overt or subtle attacks against Obama cos of his race? Please Box.

boikin, 911, I see what you are saying now. of the reasons I am for Obama is that I see him as trying to make an effort to be less divisive. Our country is also divided, and it is not subtle. I cannot disagree on what you witnessed in the science/creationism debate. I was not there. I'd think that the current Palin campaign does not exercise nearly as much intellectual curiosity as the Obama/Biden campgain.

 
915Perm Dude
      ID: 219572916
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 14:55
Old wives tale, mostly. There is some evidence that, in some places it may have occurred, but bad polling is almost certainly to blame IMO. It was certainly the case in the race for which the effect was named.

Nick Silver of fivethirtyeight.com with a post about this. I don't agree with him completely, but I think he's right that the Bradley Effect, if it existed previously, is gone.
 
916boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 15:00
I'd think that the current Palin campaign does not exercise nearly as much intellectual curiosity as the Obama/Biden campgain. this maybe true, since honestly i am not sure i heard Palin say anything. I just believe that if the Obama/Biden campaign really believed in unity they would come out and say to supporters "I know that you are have been unhappy by some the policies of past administration, but attitudes of anger are not the attitudes of the future, when you seen the McCain supporter ask them if they would like ride to vote."
 
917Tree
      ID: 219262723
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 15:00
i'm not exactly sure at what point it became a right wing rallying cry to say "hey, you guys are calling us racists" if someone did indeed call you out on that.

if you darken photos to make someone appear darker than they are, that's racial. if you constantly hint at someone's religious background - regardless of the truth - or if you constantly invoke their middle name to make them appear to be arab - you're doing things that are questionable in their ethics and most likely playing the race card.

i'm still maintaining there is so much excitement in the prospect of an obama presidency. my best friend - who lives in the florida panhandle - has gotten her boyfriend and a co-worker to vote for Obama, which is no small feat considering their political backgrounds.

one thing i think is interesting - if Palin continues to rise in the Republican party, and makes a true run at things in 2012 and/or 2016, i think you'll see a legit third party candidate emerge, with leanings toward the right - maybe someone like Ron Paul...

 
918walk
      ID: 181472714
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 15:11
boikin, I think your point is valid. I also think the Dems have gotten pretty hurt trying to take that tact in the past (see Gore & Kerry). It's a bit of a catch-22 and there's a lot at stake. That said, I still it's very clear which pair of Pres & VP candidates have been more outspokenly negative in their speeches and behavior.
 
919boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 15:30
if it existed previously, is gone. Ok that is what i read and figured, i was just wondering if there was new evidence that did never existed.

It's a bit of a catch-22 and there's a lot at stake. But that has always been the arguement, that there is too much at stake, when is there not too much at stake? If anything there is less at stake this election even if McCain did win dems will have major control of both houses. Even so Rove was considered a genius because he saw how times had changed and in response changed how campaigns were run, well times have changed again is it not time for some one to make that new change?

I have a feeling that maybe with a bit luck things will not be this way in four years. I do not think McCain is the person his campaign has become and Obama is not as vengeful as his followers/party...knock on wood.
 
920Perm Dude
      ID: 219572916
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 15:55
I don't think Palin will go anywhere in 4 years. She'll run, and flame out early like Guiliani did.
 
921Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 16:26
Guiliani has the problem that in neither party does he have a natural base.

Palin's problem is that she does not have a party power structure which likes her. She being all mavericky.
 
922Razor
      ID: 529382710
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 16:54
Well, it's not because she's too mavericky. It's because the GOP rightly sees her as a buffoon incapable of winning.

I think the GOP might retool and actually trot out someone good in 2012. Maybe a younger guy. It'd be amazing and hilarious if the GOP nominated Bobby Jindal to run against Barack.
 
923Perm Dude
      ID: 52943015
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 17:04
Jindal is a good pick. But if Obama is doing well in 4 years he'll probably wait.

Huckabee is probably a better pick for the evangelicals than Palin, though if the Palin supporters want to continue to blame some other reason than she's not qualified I'd be pleased. So long as Republicans continue to divide themselves the moderates will continue to flock to the Democratic Party.

 
924Razor
      ID: 529382710
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 17:20
It's interesting to note that Jindal's support among Indian-Americans is not good.
 
925Boldwin
      ID: 2962619
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 17:27
Yeah, it's because she's all mavericky. She's intelligent and has the instincts of Reagan. Which puts her at odds with the Rockafellers and such.
 
926Razor
      ID: 529382710
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 18:37
She's an idiot. And I don't know what "has the instincts of Reagan" even means.
 
927Perm Dude
      ID: 52943015
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 19:06
Reagan never spoke of some areas as being "real America" while blaming her problems on the media. Reagan was a uniter. The fact that Palin is married to a guy who wants Alaska to be its own country should be clue enough about how Reagan-like Palin really is.
 
928Perm Dude
      ID: 52943015
      Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 19:39
WND headline?
 
929Perm Dude
      ID: 161040312
      Mon, Nov 03, 2008, 20:31
Obama's grandmother passes away.

Sad news at a crazy time.
 
930bibA
      ID: 421039315
      Mon, Nov 03, 2008, 21:46
I am sure those on the right such as Rush will be apologizing now for their continuous inuendo suggesting that Obama was untruthful about going to Hawaii to see his ill grandmother.
 
931sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Nov 03, 2008, 22:41
you forget the [/sarcasm] bibA. From the comments in PDs link, it seems some have already said some pretty disgusting things.
 
932Wilmer McLean
      ID: 541019711
      Sat, Nov 08, 2008, 06:08
Obama mocks 87-year old widow.

Answering a question from Lynn Sweet of the Chicago Sun-Times as to the Presidents he has consulted during the transition, Obama took a gratuitous jab at Nancy Reagan, who was recently released from the hospital after breaking her pelvis in a fall.


BARACK OBAMA: In terms of speaking to former presidents, I've spoken to all of them that are living, obviously President Clinton--I didn't want to get into a Nancy Reagan thing about, you know, doing any séances.

oooooops,

Nancy Reagan consulted with an astrologer about Ronald Reagan's schedule after he was shot. It was actually Hillary Clinton who was reported to have engaged in seance-like sessions in which she communed with the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt.


 
933Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Nov 08, 2008, 06:42
Can we obtain bipartisan support by insulting the widow of one of the most popular Presidents of all time?

YES WE CAN!
 
934Perm Dude
      ID: 171049717
      Sat, Nov 08, 2008, 09:38
He called her and she accepted the apology. Not a big deal. She was, of course, using astrology to set his meetings--one of the weirder facts to come out of that Administration.
 
935Seattle Zen
      ID: 358591721
      Sat, Nov 08, 2008, 11:19
New Thread!