Forum: pol
Page 3147
Subject: Tony Snow dies of cancer


  Posted by: Perm Dude - [39632128] Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 14:27

He was a partisan dick, but died too young of a disease that claims too many.
 
1Weykool
      Leader
      ID: 41750315
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 14:45
The guy dies from cancer and you feel the need to call him a partisan dick?
Very classless and tasteless PD.
 
2Texas Flood
      ID: 546351020
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:06
what a prick!
 
3Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:09
Yes, the died too young of a disease that claims too many was a kick in the kidneys, wasn't it?

I'm disinclined to start lying about people just because they have died. While alive, he was a partisan dick. That doesn't change because he tragically lost his life.
 
4Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:17
While alive, he was a partisan dick.

OK. If that's how its gonna be let's keep this thread alive for when Teddy Kennedy kicks the bucket.
 
5Weykool
      Leader
      ID: 41750315
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:18
PD:

I will make you a promise.
When you die I will not remind everyone that you were a partisan A-Hole.
 
6Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 15:28
This is what we contract hanging around people like Tree, PD.
 
7Tree
      ID: 376361213
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 16:21
Baldwin - trust me. you can look over the last year, year and a half, and the childish petty insults from you very heavily outweigh those from anyone else here.

say what you want, but you've never known a truth that you wouldn't deny in the face of your belief system.

i mean, hell, you can just look at the post of yours in this thread i'm referencing. the thread has nothing to do with, i hadn't posted in it, and yet, you choose to insult me.

you need to look into the mirror, pal.
 
8Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 16:25
The key to not being called a dick when you die is not being one when you are alive.

I'd never ask anyone to lie about me after I'm gone.
 
9walk
      ID: 566471020
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 18:56
I think PD was being "brutally honest," and I think the social norms here are more about if this is someone personally close to us, as a community, as opposed to being "respectful of the (recently) deceased. Jesse Helms recently died. I cannot think of a single good thing to say about him, and just because he died does not mean that changes my feelings, but I can see the point of "wait a bit till after the feelings of loss before we get brutally honest about the guy." But the thing is there would be no discussion of the guy (Snow) if he had not died, so it's a bit a catch-22.
 
10Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:17
We discussed him enuff before he had to take a medical leave. The guy was as good natured as cotton candy. How PD could say that is mind-boggling. Really if you can't like that guy on the opposite side of the isle you're never gonna have a nice thing to say about anyone there.
 
11Weykool
      Leader
      ID: 41750315
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:19
Walk:
It isnt a catch-22 it is a matter of being respectful about another human being and fellow American.

The words that PD chose say far more nagative things about PD than they do Tony Snow.
Has the political discourse gotten so bad in this country that we feel the need to stomp on and spit on the grave for our fellow man?
Shame on all of us if that is the case.
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:32
Tony Snow spent his entire time as press secretary berating, badgering, and stonewalling reporters who asked questions about the Administration. His behavior during the Libby trial was a long exercise in creative lying, by a Press Secretary more interested in flash and bombast than in information distribution. If Snow worked for a Democratic President you folks would still be pissed at him. And likely be now laughing and high fiving. Nevertheless the country is worse as a result of his tenure.

This reminds me of conservatives who built careers out of attacking Bill Clinton personally, spreading the vilest rumors and lies, who quickly wrapped themselves in a thin cover of "respect for the office" as soon as Bush was elected.

Tony Snow was a dick while Press Secretary, and was proud of the fact. It is too bad conservatives around here have to spread around some more manufactured outrage over words Snow would be happy to have stood behind. He was a dick for the President--he was wrong, but he didn't shy away from that fact. And neither should anyone else. So suck it up--he was your man, right or wrong. Stop hiding behind your skirts.
 
13Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:35
I think PD after drinking the Obama koolaid will be foaming at the mouth for the duration. This bears no relation to the PD I used to know.
 
14Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:47
Given your spin on what you think I believe, that is no surprise, Baldwin. Obama, who reaches out to members of both parties (unlike Snow, or you for that matter) has nothing to do with it.

We're in the state we are in (and conservativism, as a political entity has had its legs cut out from under itself) as a result of people like Tony Snow.

It really is too bad that conservatives here have gone all PC on this issue. You had no problem with Snow being Snow while he was alive, cheering him on, in fact. But now that he's died then suddenly you're embarrased at your own cheerleading and want to hush up the truth out of others out of, well, I think you'd say "respect" but for what, exactly?
 
15Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:52
I am embarrassed by Snow? You have lost it. I love the guy like a brother.
 
16Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 19:56
If I'm embarassed for anyone here it's PD.
 
17Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 20:10
Read it again, Baldwin. Embarrased at Snow. Remember the whole "it's 130 degrees there" when explaining why the air-conditioned Iraqi parliament went on a month-long vacation while American soldiers working in the heat in body armor were taking bullets?

How about Snow telling Congress they shouldn't be questioning the Administration's initiatives on a whole range of issues? Think a Republican Congress should take Snow's advice with a Democratic President?
 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 20:12
I'm not going to pull my punches on the guy simply because he's dead.
 
19holt
      ID: 341542412
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 20:25
Here's a suggestion. If you hate a person, let someone else start a thread for that person when they die. Maybe just stick with dead democrats PD. This thread is just awful. Have a nice day.
 
20Tree
      ID: 376361213
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 20:55
PD nailed it when he said Snow would have embraced being called a dick.

he reveled in that fact when alive, and he went to his grave being content in that.

for Tony Snow, it was a badge of honor.
 
21Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 21:01
So you don't really have a problem with anything that PD has done in this thread then?
 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 21:15
I never said I hated the guy. I thought he was a partisan hack who would lie to his mother for Bush. And Bush surrounded himself by such people, making our country poorer. But I didn't hate the guy. You're confusing my refusal to gloss over a career Snow was proud of with a belief that I must hate him because of it.
 
23walk
      ID: 566471020
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 21:18
I would not be outraged or indignant by what PD has said. If it was someone some one here had a personal relationship with, then that's different. This is a politics forum, and PD is speaking to Snow's form of politics, and that's all. The dead-respect thing is pretty bogus given that it's his death that is leading us to discuss him.

Bobby Murcer also died today. A NYY all-star of the 1970s. If he was a dick, and folks said so, then that'd be fine, too.
 
24Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 22:47
Embarrising.
 
25Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 23:36
I'm sorry for his family that he died, but he was a dick. PD could have been more tactful, certainly, but I don't think you can argue with the premise.
 
26holt
      ID: 341542412
      Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 02:48
Anyone interested in trying to scale Troll Mountain? I'll pass. Good night.
 
27Wilmer McLean
      ID: 196411215
      Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 02:57
RE: 9

Jesse Helms recently died. I cannot think of a single good thing to say about him.

NY Times
April 22, 2001

By Walter Russell Mead

The Nation; Why the World Is Better For Jesse Helms


Last week's joint meeting of the foreign policy committees of the American and Mexican senates served as a reminder of the unique position that Senator Jesse Helms, Republican of North Carolina, holds in American foreign policy today. Cranky, unilateralist, unwilling to yield American sovereignty for the sake of international cooperation, quick to impose economic sanctions, a defender of traditional Southern values, pro-gun, pro-death penalty and anti-abortion, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman is the man American internationalists love to hate.

Presidents and secretaries of state court the powerful Senator Helms the way Harry S. Truman and Dean Acheson courted Senator Arthur H. Vandenberg in the 1940's -- or curse his name the way Lyndon B. Johnson and his secretary of state, Dean Rusk, cursed Senator J. William Fulbright during the Vietnam War. Liberal internationalists hate Senator Helms for his resourceful opposition to the Kyoto Protocol, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the international criminal court and the international land mine treaty. Business internationalists hate him because of his support for unilateral American economic sanctions against Cuba and Iran, and skepticism about China.

But while hating Jesse Helms remains a parlor sport in Georgetown, Cambridge and Manhattan, a longer view of American history would demonstrate that Jesse Helms is a necessary part of the process: If he didn't exist, America would have to invent him.

"You have to have both yin and yang in American foreign policy, and Jesse Helms provides the yang," said Douglas Brinkley, a professor of history and the director of the Eisenhower Center at the University of New Orleans. "He respects his hard-line constituency but is willing to explore centrist possibilities. This is what makes him so important to the foreign-policy process."

Senator Helms plays two roles in American foreign policy -- both profoundly unpopular and even detestable from the standpoint of most of the foreign-policy establishment, but critical to the success of American foreign policy.

First, as chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, Mr. Helms upholds the power and prerogatives of the legislative branch in the foreign-policy process. Most foreign-policy professionals consider Congress, at best, a necessary evil in foreign policy, but the founding fathers thought otherwise and gave the Senate power to confirm ambassadors and ratify treaties.

These powers have frustrated presidents since George Washington worked to get the Jay Treaty with Britain through the Senate in 1794. A resentful Senate tried to humble President Andrew Jackson by refusing to confirm Martin Van Buren as minister to Britain in 1832. When the Senate amended the first Hay-Pauncefote agreement with Britain over the Panama Canal in 1900 so drastically that Britain rejected the revised treaty, John Hay had to sit down with Lord Pauncefote for a second round of talks to produce a second treaty.

While political scientists and foreign-policy practitioners often criticize the constitutional division of power between the executive and legislative branches for causing excessive confusion, American foreign policy benefits from checks and balances. Think of Senator Fulbright's criticism of the Vietnam War. Think of the role congressional investigations played during the Iran-contra scandal. Presidents can confuse personal political advantage with the national interest; congressional oversight -- even congressional obstruction -- helps keep American foreign policy on an even keel.

There is another role Mr. Helms plays that infuriates internationalists but also strengthens the country's ability to conduct an active international policy: He is the key populist, conservative skeptic of the foreign-policy establishment's pet schemes for international cooperation and intervention.

Liberal internationalists would seemingly like to forget that suspicion of the foreign-policy establishment -- the pundits, fellows at policy institutes and corporate lawyers -- is a powerful force in the American heartland. For the elite is usually convinced it knows better than mass public opinion what foreign policy should be. Occasionally, it is even proved right.

But American public opinion will not take foreign policy on faith. It therefore falls to Senator Helms to infuriate well-meaning internationalists by subjecting the Kyoto Protocol or the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty or other key projects of liberal internationalists to acid skepticism. In doing this, Senator Helms not only speaks for the tens of millions of Americans who don't trust the foreign-policy establishment; he also opens the door to a true national consensus behind important foreign-policy goals.

This role of broker between a skeptical public opinion and an insistent internationalist elite is one of the most important in American foreign policy. This is the role Senator Vandenberg played in the 1940's. As James Chace, the author of "Acheson: The Secretary of State Who Created the American World," explained, "Having a Republican chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee with strong former isolationist credentials was indispensable to winning support for the Truman Doctrine and, above all, for the Marshall Plan."

Henry Cabot Lodge's reservations to Woodrow Wilson's draft Treaty of Versailles were also partly an attempt to win wider support for a controversial international initiative. Unfortunately, Wilson did not understand the game as well as Truman and Acheson; had Wilson compromised with Lodge's reservations, the Versailles Treaty would have been ratified and the United States would have joined the League of Nations.

When Senator Helms addressed the United Nations Security Council last year, he quoted Lodge. Like Lodge, Mr. Helms seems skeptical about international organizations but not flat-out opposed; the compromise in which he agreed to support the payment of America's back dues to the United Nations in exchange for reforms and a reduction in Washington's contribution was a classic example of a brokered compromise between internationalists and skeptics.

He played a broker's role again last week when he took the Foreign Relations Committee to Mexico, showing that Senate conservatives are open to a deeper relationship with a more democratic Mexico.

Professor Brinkley, who followed the debate on the United Nations, said Mr. Helms's flexibility is real, though limited. "You can't sway Helms ideologically," he said, "but you can work out a pragmatic agenda if you can meet his basic concerns."

The politics of American foreign policy has been divided on regional and cultural lines at least since the South and the West forced the War of 1812 on a sullen New England. The Senate and the White House have been squabbling over foreign policy since George Washington, stung by sharp Senate questioning over a proposed Indian treaty, decided he would never return to seek its advice and consent in person.

Some hope and others fear that Mr. Helms, now 79, will decide against running for re-election in 2002. Either Richard G. Lugar, Republican of Indiana, or Joseph R. Biden Jr., Democrat of Delaware, would be favored to succeed him as chairman, depending on which party controls the Senate. Either could make a less prickly partner for the second half of the Bush administration.

Yet the ideological, cultural and institutional interests that Mr. Helms represents are not going away, and in his absence, the administration could find itself regretting the loss of a visible conservative foreign-policy leader with the credibility and clout to deliver a solid foreign-policy consensus on the right.


Walter Russell Mead, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, is the author of "Mortal Splendor: The American Empire in Transition."


 
28walk
      ID: 566471020
      Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 13:22
Very interesting regarding Jesse Helms. Thanks for posting.
 
29Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 13:26
It missed the touching story of his adoption. I also find it disturbing to think of him as somehow having been 'useful' to facilitating the people and processes he opposed. That is the price for being co-opted into participating in the system I guess.
 
30Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 14:16
I watched part of Meet The Press this morning and I realized that between Russert and Snow, God has one heck of an election coverage team this fall.
 
31sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, Jul 13, 2008, 22:59
Gotta side with PD on this one. Tactless? Probably so. But then Snow wasnt the most tactful either. Question for PDs detractors...When Coach Bobby Knight passes, would you lambast someone who said Knight was an a-hole? Bobby would proudly tell you he IS an a-hole and Snow would proudly have said if defending the admin at the cost of truth made him a dick, then he's a dick. *shrug*
 
32Taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 05:22
Funny thread...but not really. The "cleansed right" is insulted by PD calling a "shovel" a "shovel". Yet my post 10 days ago Seanator No dies at 86
drew zero rebuttals or comments.

'tis my opinion that Helms flawed 'don't rock the boat' southern attitude of that "they" ain't slaves, they just don't have any rights" ("Among his first forays into politics was working in 1950 to elect segregationist candidate Willis Smith to the Senate, and he later fought against much of the civil rights movement." ) along with his moniker of "Dr. No". My post of July 4th is no more disrespectfull of the deceased than PD's accurate commentary of Tony Snow. Seems to me PD is poster boy (along with Tree) as easy target(s) of the "moral majority" (talk about an oxymoron) because each passionately and habitually post truth in this forum".

As Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruise about Code Red..."Truth!!! You can't handle the truth!".

And that is the truth.
 
33Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 09:06
I find it impossible to believe Taxman or PD have the slightest feel for the sort of man he actually was and his graceful good-humored nature. All we have learned from this thread is that Ann Coulter's harshest critics are all in favor of full bore unsympathetic harshness as long as they are happy with the direction it flows.
 
34Seward Norse
      ID: 58082219
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 09:17
Interesting...

http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/read.pl?board=pol&thread=2746




 
35Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 09:37
I find it impossible to believe Taxman or PD have the slightest feel for the sort of man he actually was and his graceful good-humored nature. All we have learned from this thread is that Ann Coulter's harshest critics are all in favor of full bore unsympathetic harshness as long as they are happy with the direction it flows.

please. he was a dick, and got called a dick. never mind the fact that PD hasn't exactly pulled his punches when referring to the recently deceased. i'm pretty sure he had harsh words for Donald Regan (although, no harsh words for Ronald Reagan, i believe.)

no one said Snow was a lousy human being and a modern day incarnate of Hitler.

i mean, if you actually read THE VERY FIRST POST IN THE THREAD BY PD, he sympathizes and says that Snow died way too young.

but with your blinders, you don't see that. all you see are the first five words, and not the rest of the sentence...

he got called a dick, because he was a dick. i'm sure when the Clintons pass away, you won't exactly be praising them.
 
36Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:12
Any thoughts on the link Seward Norse provided Tree?
 
37Seward Norse
      ID: 58082219
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:28
By the way, I didn't provide that to single anyone out. I enjoy reading the discussion from both sides and learn so much from both sides, but I just find that oftentimes the right and the left will argue their own side rather than really looking at the issue. It's frustrating to see some very intelligent people just fall into party lines. Of course, I just sit on the sidelines and watch most of the time, so maybe I should just shut up. :)
 
38weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:30
What a fine contribution from our christian friend on the right, in a thread to grant abit of remembrance and honor upon one who is recently deceased. How incredibly proud "your father who art in heaven", would be with your attitude boldy.

I'll not comment on it at all boldy. As you should have refrained here. Any semblance of respect for your position, has long since fled.

True enough, but not in a commemorative thread. Time and place.....

Note:
Ann Richards was never called a name.
 
39Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:33
Seward: I just find that oftentimes the right and the left will argue their own side rather than really looking at the issue.

It sounds to me like you're the exact kind of person we need posting here.
 
40Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:40
Another perspective
 
41Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 10:58
Any thoughts on the link Seward Norse provided Tree?

what comment do you want?

that Baldwin found a way to take a swipe at his fellow posters who lean left, in a thread that commemorating the dead?

that Sarge somewhat misunderstood Baldwin's post, which is understandable, since the grammar on it was questionable?

that NC said all is fair game on a political discussion board?

i'm not sure what your point is - i didn't really think the link was worthy of comment.
 
42weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 11:08
I think the question is the the total inconsistencies displayed in the two threads.

Ann Richards was never called a name even after 4 glowing remarks about here.
Tony snow was called a name despite the fact that nobody had said anything positive about him.
It was totally unprovoked.

The question is the hypocrisy being displayed in this thread just because someone shares your political point of view.
 
43sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 11:30
The difference is WK, Tony Snow as a dick. That contention honestly hasnt even been debated. A Richards, Boldy tossed some comparative to AC into it, and in my mnds eye, it was entirely inaccurate. Thus my comment. IOW, Boldy cant help but make snide remarks about anyone Left of him. Whereas PD, simply called "a shovel a shovel", as has been said above.
 
44weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 11:35
Sarge:

That is your opinion and you are entiled to it.
I thought Tony Snow was a great American who treated people with respect and deserves far more respect than is being shown here.

In my mind the is nothing worse than being a hypocrite and your words are extremly hypocritical.
 
45Taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 17:37
quote from PD's link @ top of thread:

As press secretary, Snow brought partisan zeal and the skills of a seasoned performer to the task of explaining and defending the president's policies. During daily briefings, he challenged reporters, scolded them and questioned their motives as if he were starring in a TV show broadcast live from the West Wing.

Critics suggested that Snow was turning the traditionally informational daily briefing into a personality-driven media event short on facts and long on confrontation. He was the first press secretary, by his own accounting, to travel the country raising money for Republican candidates.

Although a star in conservative politics, as a commentator he had not always been on the president's side. He once called Bush "something of an embarrassment" in conservative circles and criticized what he called Bush's "lackluster" domestic policy.


Lets see..from critic of King W to defending the King's new (transparant) clothing with partisan zeal while scolding and questioning motives of his required audience doing their jobs...I dunno, me thinks PD maybe went light on the anatomy choice. A dick or not, he certainly had balls.

PV's link to Mike Gallagher article is a must read (for reasons not pertaining to this thread). Snow's action towards Gallagher's wife (a committed liberal) illustrate redeeming qualities that will be sorely missed by Snow's widow, children and those that enjoyed him dicking with the media publicly and becoming the curtain that shielded the Great Wizard Oz (King W) from the Munchkins and other critics.

No pun intended, but we should stop beating this dead horse. We all have redeeming qualities which are often invisible to others. Lost because of disbelief in the stupidity and insulting tone of another's political, social, religous (fill in the blank) view. To me ..it's the personal attack, rather than the opinion and associated logic that has become the problem. Here is to a renewed focus on the latter.
 
46Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 18:47
The Tony Snow you aparently don't know.

Missed facet

Missed facet Contrast Tony's comment at the end of this with PD's comments in this thread and tell me what is says about their character.

Missed facet Cavuto takes on PD.

 
47sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 19:42
pt 1...so? A recording of him playing a flute.

pt 2...your point?

pt 3...why you would link to a faulty foxspews piece is beyond cognition.

IOW, you have yet to refute that claim, allegation that Snow was a dick. Guess what? When I'm gone,there will be many who will the same of me. And in many cases, they'll be right. To them, I WILL have been a dick. It is neither an insult nor a slam, to say what PD did. (Nor WK, is it hypocritical to call something/someone what it/they are and think thats OK, but to abhor interjecting AC comparatives.)
 
48Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 20:14
Seriously, an accomplished and good man dies tragically young leaving a heartbroken family who, no doubt, can google (ike other strangers can and visited these boards) and the first thing said about him is a gutter vulgarity - because PD didn't like the way he handled a job as a press SECRETARY for a few months. That's the actions of a dick. Nice contribution to the political discourse on the board, PD. Defend it away.

For PD I am embarrassed.
 
49Perm Dude
      ID: 39632128
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 20:27
If you can't tell the difference between describing the job the man did (and seemed altogether proud of) and the man then that's really too bad.

No one in this thread has challenged my actual take on the man, only whether I should be saying it. Sad.
 
50Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 20:31
I can read your post, not your mind. I'm sure you said what you wanted.
 
51Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 20:37
The first thing PD posted was "He was a partisan dick..."

Class all around.
 
52holt
      ID: 341542412
      Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 22:21
Tell you what PD. If I hear news that you've died prematurely, I'll make sure I post the news here immediately. I won't wait til someone who likes you takes the first crack at it. I'll just say that PD, a partisan dick, died. That should cover it. I can't see how anyone would be offended or find it in poor taste. And the really great thing is, people will be so pissed off that they will never even get around to mentioning any of the positive things you've ever done, because they'll be too preoccupied with ripping me a new hole. It'll be great!
 
53Taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 02:23
hurrmph

I write a lengthy essay Post 45 above pointing out that AP thought Snow to be a dick also, yet all continue to shoot at PD.

Again I quote "During daily briefings, he challenged reporters, scolded them and questioned their motives

Can someone explain to me how/why that is not the definition of being a "dick?
 
54Jag
      ID: 28457122
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 03:29
I came to the board thinking that I would see some kind words about what both sides of the aisle considered a great human being and I was astonish to see the classless comment by PD.

 
55Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 03:45
The fact of the matter is that for the most part the WH press corp are partisan speech makers for the Dem party and are incapable of being fair, objective, of giving credit where credit is due, partisan deconstructionists incapable of understanding reality itself.

Why Snow offended the radical Dem so much was how effectively he exposed the press corps' mischievous agenda and frankly his own decency , good nature and common sense was the reason his responses contrasted with and exposed them so badly.

He was from their club. He was like the tobaco industry family insider who hurt that industry so badly in public relations.
 
56Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 04:01
No one in this thread has challenged my actual take on the man - PD

Is SZ shipping you 'vitamins'? I've been saying he was the sweetest man whose ever held the job of Press Secretary this whole thread and you interpret that as agreeing with you essentially on his character?

He was a WH press secretary. His job was to explain the president's position.

Your take on him is indefensible.
 
57holt
      ID: 341542412
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 05:51
Lou Gehrig dies of ALS. He was an arrogant jerk to rookies, but died too young of a disease that claims too many.


 
58Tree
      ID: 53631155
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 06:49
The fact of the matter is that for the most part the WH press corp are partisan speech makers for the Dem party and are incapable of being fair, objective, of giving credit where credit is due, partisan deconstructionists incapable of understanding reality itself.

please.

when Bush and his cronies and supporters were marching well over 4,000 americans to their death in a bogus attack against a sovereign nation, there are almost NO members of the press raising a voice in protest.

like you and everyone else blind by a patriot fervor and a distrust for those with darker skin, they were in a blood lust.

so don't even ACT like they were some sort of dissenting voice. the American press was tragically disappointing in their lack of protest as Bush and company switched over to kill mode.

Why Snow offended the radical Dem so much was how effectively he exposed the press corps' mischievous agenda and frankly his own decency , good nature and common sense was the reason his responses contrasted with and exposed them so badly.

at least you're consistent in your "blame the left" mantra. got to give you credit there.

Lou Gehrig dies of ALS. He was an arrogant jerk to rookies, but died too young of a disease that claims too many.

i'm pretty sure if Ty Cobb's obit had mentioned he was a complete ass, no one would have blinked. in fact, Cobb probably wouldn't have had it any other way.
 
59Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 07:23
No one in this thread has challenged my actual take on the man, only whether I should be saying it. Sad.

What's sad is that the guy's body wasn't even cold and you start the name calling and make a new thread to advertise it. I don't care what you think of Tony Snow. What makes me embarassed for you is that you decided to deride a recently deceased 53 year old former Press Secretary who died of cancer and has kids and a wife.

People talk about Dick Cheney's psychosis because he goes hunting in areas where you don't even need to get out of the golf cart to kill pheasant en masse. What is your psychosis that you deliberately create a new thread for the purpose of ripping on somone who is recently deceased?

He wasn't Hitler or Stalin. What you did was totally uncalled for and the widespread condemnation of what you've done should be evidence of that. Take the blinders off.
 
60Razor
      ID: 545172413
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 08:46
I won't speak ill of the man so soon after his untimely passing, but it takes more than merely working for the White House to make someone a great man. I will say that in his role as Press Secretary, I think Snow did more harm for the country than good. This does not preclude me from feeling sorrow over his death.

Boldwin, you of all people should not be condeming anyone after your comments after that reporter was rescued a couple of weeks ago.
 
61Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 09:42
What's sad is that the guy's body wasn't even cold and you start the name calling and make a new thread to advertise it. I don't care what you think of Tony Snow. What makes me embarassed for you is that you decided to deride a recently deceased 53 year old former Press Secretary who died of cancer and has kids and a wife.

actually, i'm betting the body was cold.

i also have little doubt - as i pointed to above - that when the Clintons pass on, the Baldwins and Boxmans of the world will have little problem condemning them.

if someone is not worthy of praise, why praise them? should we lie, and falsely praise someone who was, pretty much, a dick?
 
62Perm Dude
      ID: 53622158
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 09:55
you deliberately create a new thread for the purpose of ripping on somone who is recently deceased?

My post, in its entirely:

He was a partisan dick, but died too young of a disease that claims too many.

He was, indeed, a partisan dick, and proud of it. I think we might even agree on that point. What we don't agree on is that I should have said so. And apparently, in your rush to make judgement you overlooked the rest of my sentence.

Apparently one should overlook what people do in life that you disagree with once they die, is that it? Or is there a PC chart in which I might look up an appropriate time to bring up what the guy himself seemed to have as part of his life's work?
 
63Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 10:05
I think we might even agree on that point.

What part of no don't you understand?
 
64Perm Dude
      ID: 53622158
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 10:10
You're saying that Tony Snow was not a partisan dick and proud of it? Perhaps that his intentional combativeness on behalf of the Administration toward perceived political enemies didn't exist? Or that it did exist but he hated every minute of it?
 
65Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 10:15
It never even occurred to me to call Dee Dee Meyers a partisan dick and she hasn't even died yet.

Maybe I just don't understand the phrase because PD is not a phrase I've ever used.

Do you mean to say anyone who performs the job desription of WH press secretary, making the president's case, is by default a PD?

Do you mean to say that because he was so effective at it that he was a PD? Does having male genitalia make you more likely to be an effective worker? Is that what you mean by the phrase?

 
66weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 10:38
Does PD stand for Perm Dude or Partisan Dick?
 
67Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 10:46
Both now.
 
68Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 11:26
There seems to be little in the way of honesty from those protesting PD's characterization of Tony Snow.

It was the administration that decided to hire a partisan pundit for a job that is generally appointed to a non-celebrity, although many use that position for celebrity and punditry after they leave the position.
It was the administration that set Snow up to be characterized as a partisan dick based on his previous public celebrity as an unobjective champion of conservatism.

I can find no indication that Tony Snow was anything other than a fine man in his personal life, but we're talking politics here, and it's hard to argue that the very basis of conservative punditry has been based on being a dick to the political opposition for quite a while now.

Had Tony Snow died without ever having been appointed White House press secretary this thread would have never existed. Maybe this should be used as a lesson that such a position should generally be reserved for someone who the public and the press corps regard as at least somewhat objective in their presentation as representative of White House communications.
Tony Snow failed in that regard through no fault of his own, as he was already established in politics as partisan beyond objectivity.

But none of this is an indictment of Tony Snow as a human being.

Being a partisan dick doesn't exclude someone from being a great human being, and the record shows that Snow qualifies in that regard.
 
69Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 11:36
My precient words upon Snow's appointment...
Boldwin
ID: 49626249
Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 00:17 He has a very very likable demeanor, far more winning than Helen Thomas. He knows when they are abusing their privilege. He can convey that well deserved disapproval as someone with a great deal of credibility in their own profession. When some reporter gets up there and makes a speech instead of asking a question he is going to handle it like no one has ever handled it before.

That said he is a conservative and Bush is a neo-con and Snow well knows it so it may be an interesting game that can be played there. So far Snow's answer to that game is to say, 'You should see what i said about the other guy'. Trust me Snow is an extraordinary individual even when measured against his predecessors.
 
70weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 11:38
Every press secretary has been partisan.
I cant believe I even need to state the obvious.

The fact is this thread would not exist if PD had not been a PD.
 
71Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 12:09
Every press secretary has been partisan.
I cant believe I even need to state the obvious.


How many press secretaries have been partisan media celebrities prior to their appointments?

You really don't see the difference?
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 12:12
Dan Rather as Obama's Press Secretary. I hear he's unemployed, tan and rested.
 
73Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 13:10
Dan Rather as Obama's Press Secretary. I hear he's unemployed, tan and rested.

Thanks for helping to prove my point, Baldwin. You have no problem portraying Rather as a partisan dick going so far as to actually lie about him. He's not unemployed, he is now managing editor and anchor of a television news magazine, Dan Rather Reports, on the cable channel HDNet. Although at age 76, old enough to be Snow's father, very few would begrudge him if he did choose retirement, which you insultingly would refer to as unemployment.

Any comparison between the careers of Rather and Snow would not be fair, as Rather had accomplished about 5 times as much as Snow by the time he was 53, but no one knows what Snow would have accomplished had he lived to be 76.

And if Rather were to be named as Obama's press secretary, I'm sure that partisan dick would be one of the more gentle characterizations his political opponents would use.
 
74bibA
      ID: 366281415
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 13:52
going so far as to actually lie about him

Serious accusation there PV. Maybe it was a case of Baldwin just not knowing what he was talking about.
 
75biliruben
      ID: 52561217
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 15:17
Baldwin is rarely uninformed. Unfortunately, due to his choice of reading material, he's almost always misinformed.
 
76Tree
      ID: 33611515
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 16:09
Maybe I just don't understand the phrase because PD is not a phrase I've ever used.

this may be the most laughable line in this entire absurd thread.

you are honestly going to sit here and tell a bunch of people who have shared a message board with you for several years that you do not know what the phrase "partisan dick" means?

seriously? you can't even break it down into "partisan" and "dick" and know what it means?

how on earth do you manage to put your underwear on so the fly is facing front?
 
77holt
      ID: 341542412
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 16:54
Tree, you are a troll. What's laughable is you telling someone else how stupid they are.

Tony Snow worked in George H. W. Bush's administration as a speech writer and Deputy Assistant to President for Media Affairs. I'm sure he wasn't only chosen by W. because of his work as a pundit. He only worked as Press Secretary for about a year and a half btw.

I'm curious to know if PD considers partisans on the Democrat side to be dicks, or if he considers them to be Noble Knights or Courageous Defenders of the Cause or something like that.
 
78Perm Dude
      ID: 53622158
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 17:10
Some of them are dicks, holt. Because dickishness, as you know, is not a political ideology but is a way of acting toward others. But most all of Bush's spokespeople are dickish toward the Press, particularly those they termed "MSM." Intentionally. Snow was in that group. But being a dick isn't something the Right has a lock on.

Sad to see much of the criticism from the Right devolve into their standard "The Left would do it too!" reply as some kind of excuse for behavior on "their" side.
 
79Tree
      ID: 33611515
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 17:50
Tree, you are a troll. What's laughable is you telling someone else how stupid they are.

why? because i refuse to believe that a 50-something year old man on a politics board doesn't know the meaning of the words "partisan" and "dick"?

Tony Snow worked in George H. W. Bush's administration as a speech writer and Deputy Assistant to President for Media Affairs. I'm sure he wasn't only chosen by W. because of his work as a pundit. He only worked as Press Secretary for about a year and a half btw.

that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not he's a dick.

my best friend's sister was Laura Bush's press secretary, and she wasn't a dick and she did it a for lot longer than a year and a half.

I'm curious to know if PD considers partisans on the Democrat side to be dicks, or if he considers them to be Noble Knights or Courageous Defenders of the Cause or something like that.

Michael Moore. He's a dick. i like what he has to say, and i'm entertained by what he does, but he's a dick.

being a dick has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with, well, being a dick.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 21:05
Lol Bili

Of course I knew they eased him out gracefully with face-saving busy work. Better for reputations, network as well as Rather's.

I assumed everyone knew that. For all intents and purposes unemployed. As national news anchormen go. Was abreviating for a snappy line I still think was first rate.
 
81rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 22:17
Not that I post here that much, but lots of people I have died in the past 3,4,5 years. Has there been any other RIP threads that called the deceased "dick" or "A-Hole" or any other derogatory name? I do recall MITH gave Anna Nicole Smith a "BFD" which caused some stir.

I'm sure there have been plenty of "dicks" who have died in the past 3,4,5 years, yes?

Unless I missed something, why set a precedent with Tony?

FWIW, I wouldn't call any dead man by a derogatory name -- even if I had a poor opinion of him. I think it reflects more on PD that Tony (just my humble opinion). PD can defend it as he wishes, just seems in bad taste.

rfs waiting to see what the righties post about Ted Kennedy when the time comes.

 
82Weykool
      Leader
      ID: 41750315
      Tue, Jul 15, 2008, 23:12
rfs waiting to see what the righties post about Ted Kennedy when the time comes.
I doubt the thread will be started by someone from the right and if it is I seriously doubt they will start it with unprovoked name calling.

As long as there is not an attempt by liberals to rewrite Teddy's legacy I will not be there to remind everyone that he was a drunk and an murderer.

Other than that I would think that most righties would say nothing other than condolences towards the family.
Hence the term:
Rest in Peace.
 
83Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 00:11
I will not be there to remind everyone that he was a drunk and an murderer.

A murderer? Maybe an involuntary manslaughterer, but if you have some evidence that has yet to see the light of day, I don't think there's a statute of limitations on murder.
 
84rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 00:11
I don't even think Saddam was called a "dick" upon his death.
 
85Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 03:06
I'll call Saddam worse than that.

Far as Ted goes, the last 5 years I've started to wonder about all the assassination attempts at Kennedy's and wonder if those same people weren't also trying to kill Ted that night in Chapaquidick, so I've passed up all further opportunities to heckle him about that.

The drinking and date raping...he's still on the hook there. I have heard he is a prince to the staffers and that is not universal among the powerful. I also know that he has managed to forge some strong and strange alliances and friendships in the senate which makes me respect him so very much more than Chuck Schummer who truly the term PD was invented for.

Some other PD's...Sid Vicious Bloominthal, Hillary, I'm actually on the fence with Carville believe it or not, I had one other name earlier today but it escapes me atm.
 
86Tree
      ID: 1866165
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 06:19
RFS - i think that's the point. Tony Snow, was a dick.

Saddam, was not a dick. he was a sick, depraved, murdering, psychopathic meglomaniac.

being called a dick, is not much of anything. Bill Clinton can certainly be a dick sometimes. Jon Stewart is a dick. Rush Limbaugh, is a dick. Bill Baher, is a dick. Michael Moore, dick.

lots of people are dicks. it's not the end of the world, and still, no one has really taken issue with PD's description of Snow as a dick, just that he called him one, and on that, again, i don't believe for a minute that Baldwin, et al, will be even remotely kind to the Clintons when they pass.
 
87Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 07:29
The Clintons are not good natured, likable, credible, sweet, decent, good humored or graceful or any of the other qualities Snow possessed and thus at no time will they receive the treatment I give Tony Snow.
 
88Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 08:14
The Clintons are not good natured, likable, credible, sweet, decent, good humored or graceful or any of the other qualities Snow possessed and thus at no time will they receive the treatment I give Tony Snow.

which, of course, is evasive of the point i was making.
 
89Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 09:26
Look at the very end of link #2 in my post #46.

Now tell me a PD takes that approach to that issue.
 
90sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 09:32
Just to clear the air ....upon my demise, you have my 'permission' to call me what you will. I wont be answering anyway, so it wont much matter.
 
91weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 10:20
Just to clear the air ....upon my demise, you have my 'permission' to call me what you will. I wont be answering anyway, so it wont much matter.

And out of respect for Katie and those who respect you I hope we will refrain from purposly adding to their loss and grief.
 
92Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 10:21
i'm not asking what someone on youtube thinks. i'm asking how Baldwin would react when the Clintons die.

i wouldn't expect lavish praise - i'd expect good riddances and condemnations, and any thing else would just be dis-honest.
 
93Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 14:25
At the very least I would link to the "white house task list" and express relief that justice had finally belatedly been served.
 
94Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 15:46
and here we go along.

"justice" in Baldwin's eyes equates to the death of another American.

first a kidnapped reporter, now the former president and first lady.

i really think you are going to be surprised when you pass away, because if there is an afterlife, you are definitely not going to where you think you are.

you are NO DIFFERENT than the terrorists who preach death to those who don't believe as they do.
 
95Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 20:09
Well so now Tree wants me imprisoned and sodomized there AND he wants me in club Gitmo.

You do have the hate thing down, Tree.
 
96Tree
      ID: 206481618
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 20:31
LOL...where on earth did i say that??? i dont believe i said anything about you being imprisoned, anything at all about Gitmo, and you being sodomized. ew.

nice projecting there. outstanding.
 
97Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 20:52
Well Tree, you know perfectly well you once wished the first case on me and had to issue a retraction.

If you want me classified as a terrorist, Gitmo treatment follows.
 
98Tree
      ID: 206481618
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 21:53
Well Tree, you know perfectly well you once wished the first case on me and had to issue a retraction.

yep, that's the difference between you and i. i can admit when i'm wrong.

f you want me classified as a terrorist, Gitmo treatment follows.

again, i never said that. i just said that you share similar philosophies, including being perfectly ok with americans dying because they don't believe as you do.
 
99Perm Dude
      ID: 386551611
      Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 21:59
#97: On a related note, the terrorist watch list is now at one million names and counting.

Feel safer?
 
100Taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 00:03
Am I on it?
 
101Boldwin
      ID: 406201020
      Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 16:07
One of the downsides of free speech is that Tree can put words in my mouth I never said and there is no moderator to police it.
 
102Tree
      ID: 476461717
      Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 18:50
i'm not putting any words into your mouth.

you went on record in this forum as believing that it would have been acceptable to leave kidnapped american reporter with his captors, even if it meant the loss of his life.

sometimes i swear that you are high half the time you post, and simply don't remember it when you're NOT high. it is the only rational explanation i can even remotely come up with for the times you have said you didn't say something, when you clearly did.
 
103pd
      ID: 40726414
      Sat, Aug 16, 2008, 07:12
The democratic chair from ak was a dick. BFD