Forum: pol
Page 3174
Subject: Obama accepts the Democratic Nomination for Pres.

  Posted by: Tree - [57142820] Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 22:53
this historic event, and this acceptance speech, deserves its own thread. (especially with 440 posts on the other Obama thread)
 
1Tree
      ID: 57142820
      Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 23:06 		that was one amazing speech. amazing environment, amazing words, amazing crowd, amazing statements.
 
2biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 00:20 		Great speech. Didn't inspire quite as much as previous speeches for me, but made his case well and finally came after McCain some.
 
3Tree
      ID: 57142820
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 00:51 		i think that was the point of this speech, bili. less to inspire, and more to say "this is what i'm about, and this is what McCain is about..."
 
4Boozer
      ID: 37462114
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 00:59 		Just in case anyone was dying to hear a mildly intersted non-political-middle-of-the-road-Republican-that-could-have-possibly-been swayed view of this week's Democratic Convention (and there's alot of us out there). Have at it

-Keith Olberman. please, PLEASE just go back to telling me who had the game winning hit up the middle

-Nancy Pelosi still makes me wanna hurl



-Obama seems like a good guy

-Shame on moderately successful not rich, hard working, straight, white, males for being who you are

-shame on your two parents for enabling you, through a lifetime of hard work and staying together (maybe) for your benefit

-Democratitic Conventions look like more fun than GOP. Even if it is forced. None of these people are any fun,

-If the Democrats lose this election after 6+ years of discontent, they never deserve to win another one. You can only fail so many times when things are handed to you on a platter,

-several times had to turn the channel from MSNBC

-Michelle Obama really looked hot, except for looking like she got whacked in the mouth with a frying pan when she was little

-Obama and Will Smith have something in commen

-Tom Brokaw looked like he had been drinking

-I miss Tim Russert around this time of year

-for the first time ever, I had a tiny smidgeon of appreciation for Ted Kennedy. I must be getting old

-The Democrats "tough talk" isnt working for me, most of its coming from the Lesbians

-a few times had to turn the channel from Fox

-Michelle Obamas "speech" was canned and disappointing. One of the places I was hoping would help me with an opinion, Blah... (But she did look good)

-still dont trust any politicians at all above the local level, and not many of those

-Obama seems like a good Dad



-wont vote for Obama. He didnt get my trust or confidence this week, He had my interest but impaled himself back at The Minister
 
5Perm Dude
      ID: 397582815
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 01:03 		but impaled himself back at The Minister

What do you mean?
 
6Boozer
      ID: 37462114
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 01:18 		but impaled himself back at The Minister

What do you mean?

I suppose it was that association for that length of time that that overode the positives for me
 
7Tree
      ID: 57142820
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 03:01 		I suppose it was that association for that length of time that that overode the positives for me

it's silly to continue to bring this up, but even though the reality is that in a relative sense, the amount of inflammatory speech from Wright was minimal over that length of time?

it's not as if Obama joined that congregation because Wright said "hey! whitey sucks!"...
 
8nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 04:07

I thought the speech was OK but at times it seemed so rehearsed, and planned and not as passionate as I expected. Probably trying to look Presidential which I did think he pulled off this time.

The most encouraging moment to me was when he promised a 10 year plan to take away our oil dependency on the Middle East. He mentioned all the feel good ways to do it, wind, solar (the ones that won't work) and then he didn't shy away from mentioning nuclear. Nuclear is the only way to make that dream come true.

If he continues to mention nuclear and is serious, and Americans finally get serious about conservation, (Something that has already started with these high oil prices.) there's hope for eventual energy independence.

Really running with that idea as a major campaign theme could be an election changer from either candidate if done well.

Much of the financial problems we face today revolve around the huge sums of wealth we are transferring from our country to the Sheiks in the Middle East.

 
9Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 07:42 		Here's an email I received with this measured response.

Friends,

Emperor Obama has spoken.

In a manner fit for an Emperor, Obama descended upon the more than 80,000 gathered in Denver to receive his message last night.

I couldn't help but notice the similarities between the spectacle and the man himself. While the Roman columns looked the part, Invesco field was no more a Roman Coliseum then Barack Obama is qualified to be President of the United States.

Even with Joe Biden by his side, Roman pillars surrounding him and Bill and Hillary behind him, the Barack Obama last night at Mile High was the same inexperienced, liberal radical we have always known him to be. No amount of rock concert lighting, Broadway stagecraft, lofty rhetoric -- or even fireworks -- will change that. The media networks in attendance may trust him to lead them to the Promised Land, but we certainly do not.

Americans need to stand up now and show our opposition to the radical left agenda that a President Obama would impose on us. Now is the time for us to stand up to the New York Times and their liberal media cronies and show our opposition to Obama. Join the NObama revolution.

Click here now and order your NOBAMA yard sign and bumper sticker set with your order of Townhall Magazine.

When you order your NOBAMA kit you will receive a years subscription of Townhall Magazine. Your first issue includes a special feature we commissioned that looks into what America could look like after a year of an Obama presidency ... it could be called "Obamageddon." The year is 2011 and bestselling writer Douglas Mackinnon takes us into the halls of power as several of the nation's greatest military minds gather to find a solution to the tragic mess our national security has become.

Click now to order your NOBAMA yard sign and bumper sticker set along with your Townhall Magazine with our Obamageddon feature.

This issue is a must read for any conservative that is concerned about our national security at home and abroad. Our cover story is an in-depth report you won't find on the Internet. Our reporter went to the border and interviewed families living on the border and have their remarkable stories ... these landowners truly are our last line of defense. After reading this report you will know what it is like to be and American standing at the border defending our nation.

In addition Obamageddon, the September issue includes our very special immigration expose. Life On The Border takes us to the border to hear the stories of the hard-working American landowners who live in a zone of danger and destruction as illegal aliens -- coming across the border -- streaming across their property.

The September issue features Amanda Carpenter examining the failures of government & teacher run schools, Fred Thompson tells you what you need to know about the housing crisis, plus Michelle Malkin, Mary Katharine Ham, an interview with Kathleen Parker and plenty of compelling photography, analysis, humor and wit.

Act now to place the NOBAMA yard sign in front of your home and arm yourself with this important information about our border, the housing crisis and the dangers of an Obama presidency.

Click now to order your NOBAMA yard sign and bumper sticker set along with your Townhall Magazine with our Obamageddon feature.


Sincerely,

Jonathan Garthwaite
Editor-in-Chief, Townhall.com

I missed the speech. I'm guessing Garthwaite did as well. I'm not sure I can stand 8 weeks of his circus.







 
10Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 09:09 		What are the poll bounce numbers?
 
11Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 09:59 		#6: Many probably agree with you. I don't think that, if Rev Wright were running for President and gave an acceptance speech, that it would look anything like what we saw last night.

I thought it was an excellent speech--it grabbed the defining issues of the war and taxes and made the case for Obama's position in clear terms. It rebutted the recent attacks on Obama as a celebrity, as an empty suit, and as a person inexperienced in Washington politics.

It also made the case against continued Republican power in no short terms ("They need to own their failures" and the 10% line were excellent).

This speech was aimed at two groups: Traditional Clinton-leaning Dems and independents. I think he made very strong cases to both.

No post-speech numbers that I've seen, but yesterday Obama had a small bump to 48-42 in Gallup.
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 10:02 		One (of several) reactions from the GOP last night. While they are regrouping today, my impression is the same as Josh Marshall's: Last night many of them looked poleaxed by the speech.

I think they keep waiting for Obama to give a bad speech and then jumping all over him for it, and when he doesn't they are left without a game.
 
13Taxman
      SuperDude
      ID: 029463114
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 10:14 		post 12 referrencing
Jonathan Garthwaite
Editor-in-Chief, Townhall.com

Mr. Garthwaite continues the Bush pattern of villianizing the Republican's opposition, whom ever it may be. As Obama stressed in his speach..all candidates and their parties love America. Lets focus on issues..not labels and name calling. Time for devisiveness to stop.
 
14biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 10:16 		I saw my first nobama bumper sticker yesterday.
 
15Great One
      ID: 497221412
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 10:18 		Obama's got my vote. Done.
 
16Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 10:25 		I think Garthwaite's piece was pre-written. There were, for example, no "Roman columns" behind Obama, but there was fear beforehand that there would be.

I agree that Obama is a radical, however. When was the last time a Democrat talked so long and hard about individual responsibility? Who supports nuclear power? And who believes the key to education is parental involvement? Radical, indeed.
 
17biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 10:37 		Obama ain't no radical. Safe and centrist. No surprises expected, sadly.
 
18Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 10:46 		Let's examine this passage in Garthwaite's letter.

Your first issue includes a special feature we commissioned that looks into what America could look like after a year of an Obama presidency ... it could be called "Obamageddon." The year is 2011 and bestselling writer Douglas Mackinnon takes us into the halls of power as several of the nation's greatest military minds gather to find a solution to the tragic mess our national security has become.

In other words, fiction. This isn't some fly by night outfit, this is one of the leading conservative sites on the web. Besides the annoyingly partisan hacks like Coulter, Malkin, Gallagher, Prager and Hawkins, they also feature more moderate and widely respected pundits like George Will, Pat Buchanon, Thomas Sowell and Michael Medved.

So it seems that the radical right is going to set the tone for their side of the election, and most of them hate McCain.

To McCain's credit, he praised Obama's speech last night and recognized its historical signifigance.

It's hard for me to have much respect for someone who so jaded as to promote a term like Obamageddon, much less commission someone to write fiction in support of such nonsense.
 
19Seattle Zen
      ID: 8748191
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:00 		I think the days of the convention bounce are over. With over 100 channels to watch, next to no one actually watches conventions any more, except the wonkiest of us, whose opinions certainly are not going to change.

I enjoyed most of the convention, was really enthusiastic about John Kerry's speech. Got tired of seeing military personnel in a constant parade onto the stage.

Reading Boozer's post is a perfect example of how polarized our country has become. He says he could be swayed, that if the Democrats don't win after having this election "handed to them on a plater", they deserve eternal damnation, thinks Michele is hot, yet he still can't bring himself to vote for the Senator. Does that mean you are going to vote for the bitter Arizoner or not vote at all? Bob Barr?

With the country as it is, a 55-45 victory now must be considered a landslide. We'll NEVER again all agree on anybody.
 
20Razor
      ID: 16752410
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:02 		Obama ain't no radical. Safe and centrist. No surprises expected, sadly.

Candidates drift towards the center to get elected and move back once in office.
 
21Razor
      ID: 16752410
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:06 		I would actually be kind of intrigued to see how conservatives think Obama would F things up. I mean, could it be that much worse than it is now?
 
22weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:17 		I would actually be kind of intrigued to see how conservatives think Obama would F things up. I mean, could it be that much worse than it is now?

LOL...have you never heard of the great depression?
Have you never heard of how bad it was during the Jimmy Carter years?
A little perspective....please.

Reading Boozer's post is a perfect example of how polarized our country has become.
Obviously you are in favor of the country being polarized otherwise you wouldnt continue to make polarizing statements.
 
23Razor
      ID: 16752410
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:23 		We are not in any danger of going into anything like a Great Depression.

In 10 years, people will talk about how bad it was during the Bush years.
 
24weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:39 		We are not in any danger of going into anything like a Great Depression.

In 10 years, people will talk about how bad it was during the Bush years.
I never said we were going into anything like a Great Depression.
You asked a question and I answered it.
Of course it could get worse....it could get much worse.
I gave you two examples of how really bad it can get.

In 10 years, people will talk about how bad it was during the Bush years.
Unfortunately we have no idea what things will be like in 10 years.
If things get as bad as they were in the Carter years with double digit unemployment and inflation with mortgage rates over 15% you may just refer to the Bush years as the good 'ol days.
 
25Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 11:49 		Have you never heard of how bad it was during the Jimmy Carter years?
A little perspective....please.

Since I was a young adult during the Carter years, perhaps I can give a little perspective.

The Nixon years were much worse. Many of the economic problems that partisan hacks like to blame on Carter were the result of Nixon/Ford deficiencies as were foreign policy issues.

But remind me what century-old broker houses like Bear Stearns went under during the Carter years. Remind me how the government had to bail out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Compare the trade deficit as compared to now, or the manufacturing base.

Please..give us your perspective.
 
26Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:01 		I mean, could it be that much worse than it is now? - Razor

Bronze that baby.

Many times I have been told by liberals that Cuba was a great place to visit and they had free health care. I don't think they have a clue how bad their ideas work out in real life.
 
27weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:48 		So in PV's world anything good that happens in a Democrats term is a result of sound policies and anything bad that happens is because of their predecessor's policies.
I think we have just identified the partisan hack.

So Bear Sterns going under is your end all be all proof that times couldnt get any worse?
Fat and bloated corporations go under all the time and are replaced by up and coming innovative companies....nothing new to see here ...move along...the economy working as intended.
The trade deficit is for the most part due to our dependence on foreign oil that is a result of failed policies of the Democratic/environmental lobbies.
 
28Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:59 		So in PV's world anything good that happens in a Democrats term is a result of sound policies and anything bad that happens is because of their predecessor's policies.

No, that's a world you're making up.

The trade deficit is for the most part due to our dependence on foreign oil that is a result of failed policies of the Democratic/environmental lobbies.

You mean like Reagan dropping Carter's energy independence policies and Bush 41's offshore drilling moratorium?
 
29bibA
      Leader
      ID: 261028117
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:07 		anything good that happens in a Democrats term is a result of sound policies and anything bad that happens is because of their predecessor's policies

weykool - are you any different? Or do you actually give Clinton credit for balancing the budget (at the end of his presidency Clinton reported a surplus of $559 billion), 8 years of relative peace, and being a somewhat popular president with a majority of the country (his approval rating was 68% when he left office)?
 
30weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:29 		Biba:
I believe that Presidents are like baseball managers.
They get too much credit for when things are going well and too much blame when things are going bad.
If the team has good players they win if not they lose.
The economy runs in cycles with ups and downs and there is little the government can do to stimulate it one way or the other.
The best we can do is hope to lessen the peaks and the valleys.
 
31biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:33 		Fat and bloated corporations go under all the time and are replaced by up and coming innovative companies

God, I wish that were the case. They died because of the "innovation", (actually lack of regulatory oversight), and they didn't "go under", the Fed essentially bought them for 29 billion, and gift-wrapped them for Morgan. You and I paid for Bear.

Under Republicans we are slaves to the markets, with leeches sucking our life-blood and innovative spirit dry, instead of building a framework where the markets work for us and spur innovation instead of graft and corruption.
 
32Perm Dude
      ID: 54759298
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:47 		Well, I think talking about how the economy runs is a different thing than talking about how the government runs.

As the largest employer in the country (and as the chief regulator across all industries) government holds huge sway, economically, but much of it is psychological. This doesn't mean it is meaningless: The price of gasoline is largely based upon psychological factors.

Obama, however, is running to make government better, regardless of how much effect that government might have on different areas of the economy.
 
33Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:55 		and innovative spirit dry, instead of building a framework where the markets work for us and spur innovation

The USA has out-innovated socialist Europe 10,000 to one and you want to bring us socialism and big-state heavy-handedness towards business.

You are too intelligent for this lunacy.

Dems deep sixing every energy exploration, nuke plant, refinery, nuke waste disposal project, etc has really made the markets work for us.

There are moments when I dispair at ever understanding intelligent liberals saying stupid things.
 
34biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:00 		Every time in history, including the current one, that we've gone too far in deregulation has ended in economic disaster for all but those at the tippy top.
 
35Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:15 		saying stupid things.

"Dems deep sixing every energy exploration" qualifies as saying stupid things.

What you mean is Dems(and a lesser percentage of Republicans) not giving complete carte blanche to extraction industries to drill and mine wherever they please.

Do you realize how many acres of public land are currently leased and producing energy in this country? Is it necessary for me to once again post the millions of barrels of crude and natural gas; the tons of coal and uranium that Utah, Colorado and Wyoming contribute every year? Do I have to post the hundreds of testimonials from conservative residents of these states who oppose extending more leases in their cherished hunting, fishing and other recreational areas? Do I have to point out that every Dem is not Nancy Pelosi?
 
36Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:16 		Seriously, own it or retract it. Are you saying socialism and big government are effective promoters of market innovation? Not speaking of bigger and better straightjackets...actual inventions and growth?
 
37biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:23 		Yes, regulation evens the playing-field, encourages competition and spurs innovation. If you want to call that socialism, that's your affair.
 
38biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:25 		What we've seen in the last 8 years is lack of risk taking, because it was so easy for the blood-suckers with connections to make money hand over fist while taking little risk at all. That doesn't spur innovation, that encourages stagnation, corruption and graft.
 
39nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 5047110
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:58
the Fed essentially bought them for 29 billion, and gift-wrapped them for Morgan. You and I paid for Bear.

Probably the wrong thread but the Fed did get 29 billion in Mortgage backed securities. Unless none of those loans are repaid, and the houses backing them are worthless, the Fed won't lose anything close to 29 Billion if anything.

 
40Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:04 		I've been working on a thread 'vampire capitolism and whitewashed graves' that ties in nicely with that. You are onto something but you don't know what it is.

Still socialism is the enemy of innovation. Red tape is the enemy of innovation. Any entry bar to market participation is an enemy of innovation. Monopoly private or public is an enemy of innovation. Most regulation is an enemy of innovation. Taxes are an enemy of innovation. Limits on intellectual property rights are an enemy of innovation. Limits on any property rights is an enemy of innovation. Limits on profitability of risk taking is an enemy of innovation.

Almost everything big government lovers do hinders growth and innovation.
 
41biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:05 		The houses don't have to worthless for the MBS to be worthless.

My optimistic guess is 50 cents on the dollar, because they claimed they were going through and trying to get the better quality ones.

But a lot of these MBSs are turning out to be worth nothing at all, for reasons I won't go into here.
 
42biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:13 		JP Morgan sells 6.7 Billion in MBS for just 22 cents on the dollar.
 
43biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:16 		Baldwin - Nearly all the things you list in 40 can, and recently been caused by the lack of regulation. Established companies that are allowed to have carte-blanche in instituting moats to protect their monopolies and kill or discourage competition.

There is such a thing as the right amount of regulation.
 
44weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:34 		Bili:

On what planet are you referencing when you claim more regulation spurs economic growth/innovation?
Perhaps you can offer some specific examples of what you are talking about?

There is such a thing as the right amount of regulation.
On this we can agree....as little as possible.

Wasnt the sale of gasoline regulated?
As I recall the prices were very low...in the .69 per gallon neighborhood.
Of course the only problem was you had to wait in line a couple of hours and hope they didnt sell their allotment before you made it to the front of the line.
 
45biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:15 		Examples - I'll give you a couple off the top of my head that I am interested in.

Regulation that increases competition:

This differs by MLS system to some extent, but the gist is that Real Estate brokers have a cartel - they have a "standard" 6% fee model set up, and they are continuing to resist any sort of alternative, "innovative" business model that threatens their cartel. They were withholding listing information from companies such as Redfin (1%, limited service business model), effectively stifling competition. Regulators stepped in and forced them to share the information, effectively breaking down the anti-competitive wall they had set up. There are still barriers to competition, but it's much better than it used to be.

Regulation that protects the consumer and taxpayer:

This is an example of regulatory oversight that should have existed but didn't. There was little to no regulatory oversight over investment banks and mortgage brokers and other lenders regarding the loans they were making and the securities they were creating from them and selling investors. I hope I don't need to point out the down-side of this lack of regulation. Just look around you. I estimate the government and the taxpayer will end up ponying up about half a trillion to save the economy from the excesses of this behavior that should have been tightly regulated to avoid the problem in the first place.

I can go on and on. Insurance examples. Health care examples. Technology. Internet. Automobiles. Blah blah blah.

It all comes down to the same story. Protect the consumer and make sure that their is a competitive market place. I don't understand how that is socialism, but if you want to keep tarring with that tired, outdated and mismatched brush, I can't really stop you.
 
46Perm Dude
      ID: 23752914
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:24 		I'm sure drugs would be a heck of a lot cheaper if they didn't have to go through that pesky regulation phase.

 
47Perm Dude
      ID: 23752914
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:28 		38 million
 
48Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:28 		Those are exceptions. Usually government red tape is inefficient and harmful to everyone involved except the government worker whose job involves shuffling that particular form.

After 50 years of living you haven't been in business if your experience with government is that government is helpful. Even if you weren't in business the only time government even seems helpful is when they are attempting to fix something they already deliberately sabotaged in the original marxist sense of the term.
 
49Perm Dude
      ID: 23752914
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:34 		Exceptions to what? Your own rules? So what?

Government, by and large these 8 years, has proven itself to be unhelpful because it is run by those who believe that and are determined to prove it. "We the People" can do much better than electing clowns who have no respect for what people can do together, when they put their minds to it.

 
50biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:36 		I'm sure the MLS system don't consider it particularly "helpful" for the government to step in either.

Sure, there is poorly run government, particularly when staffed by incompetent cronies as Bush chose to do. But their is also government that is efficient, well-run, and essential to preserving the very heart of capitalism as well as the ideals of our Republic. If you want anti-regulatory anarchy, there are places where you can find it, but I don't think you will like them very much.
 
51Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:40 		But their is also government that is efficient, well-run, and essential - A line on America's tombstone
 
52Perm Dude
      ID: 23752914
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:42 		You've been burying the government for some time (and, since Bush took office, cheered on the trashing of the Constitution). You won't vote, yet take for granted all the benefits of a government such as clean water, sky safety, roads, safe drugs, and first response protection.

You want it all and yet are unwilling to put forth one single responsible step yourself to help continue to make it happen. I think you are secretly a liberal. You, like the Administration, exhibit the worst qualities of those you profess to hate.
 
53Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:43 		To go along with socialist's other great epitaph...'the USSR didn't invalidate socialism, we just didn't find the right socialism'.
 
54biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:50 		It's impossible to discuss anything rationally with someone who equates anything that isn't anarchy with socialism.

The world isn't black and white, Baldwin, and you really need to shift your paradigm away from "the USSR's totalitarian regime sucked, so giving babies vaccines at a public clinic must suck to."

You clearly can fathom nuance, you just appear to not really want to.
 
55Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:53 		Also difficult is trying to have a rational debate with someone who actually believes 'waste, fraud and abuse' will ever be solved and big government will magically start working efficiently.
 
56biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:57 		Where did I say that?

There is a balance. There is such a thing as bad regulation. There is such a thing as too much regulation.

But there is also such a thing as essential regulation, if you are going to use the markets for the betterment of our society instead of letting the markets use us.
 
57Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:15 		Synchronicity

Watching Seinfeld rerun and the mom and pop cobbler shop gets closed because Kramer inadvertantly brought a 48 year old code violation to the attention of the city.
 
58Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:16 		Of course Kramer thot he was trying to save mom and pop shops from big business.
 
59weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:17 		Isnt your example of the real estate market nothing more than the need to enforce our anti-trust laws?
Anything taken to an extreme can be bad.
A free market that has zero oversight can lead to monopolies that end up being worse than government over regulation.

Perhaps you would like to offer another example to support your theory?
 
60biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:18 		Let's move out of the realm of fiction for a bit, maybe. I came up with some real examples where regulation enhanced competition and where it would have stopped the economic destruction of millions of American families, as well as saving the tax-payer half a trillion.

Show me something besides a fictional account of a code violation. That's pathetic.
 
61Perm Dude
      ID: 23752914
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:20 		It is, however, in the realm of Dan Quayle, a recent trophy candidate himself.
 
62Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:26 		In 1960 a simple operation would cost @ $100 dollars everthing added together. The iron triangle of Dem legislators, Dem legislators out of office and practicing law, and Dem legislators out of office and working in the insurance industry, drove that operation into the thousands.

All the while trumpetting their concern for the common man and their bleeding heart wish to bring us 'free' healthcare.
 
63Boldwin
      ID: 6755268
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:32 		Really Bili, post your draft postmortem. I could care less about this campaign. Didn't watch a second of the convention. Lets talk about something interesting.
 
64biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:36 		Well, since I've worked for both the insurance industry as well as the health care industry, I can assure you that the reasons for an operation costing more today than 50 years ago is many and varied. Inflation, improved procedures, new technologies, and yes, new safety regulations, and higher insurance rates along with it. I can also assure you that my coworkers in the insurance industry were far more likely to be Republicans.
 
65Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:38 		The iron triangle of Dem legislators, Dem legislators out of office and practicing law, and Dem legislators out of office and working in the insurance industry, drove that operation into the thousands.

More fiction.
 
66biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:41 		I don't disagree with your assessment, Weykool. Like I said, balance. You have to fund regulators to enforce the existing rules, however, and that's been the majority of the problem of late. Too few regulators.
 
67biliruben
      ID: 38751812
      Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 18:02 		...and actually the MLS issue went to court, and was decided by the judicial branch.

Are there even any regulators left for this type of thing? In Washington State, there are only a handful to regulate all the 10s of thousands of brokerages out there. Vastly understaffed. They don't have time to do anything except the extremely egregious cases, and then generally only after the damage has been done.
 
68Perm Dude
      ID: 577243010
      Sun, Aug 31, 2008, 14:51 		Holy shiite--the Daily Show hits one out of the park with this one:

 
69Baldwin
      ID: 2583316
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 07:45 		The funniest thing is that PD doesn't see any humor in there. It's all for real. The universe has been conspiring since Pangea to produce Obama.

On another sports site someone has as their tagline, "vote for the antichrist, he's so damn charming".

No Obama is not actually the antichrist but PD's brain shortened that term by 4 letters when he read it.

PD's so bursting with koolaid his eyes are yellow.
 
70tree
      ID: 46713110
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 09:35 		baldwin - i'm pretty sure PD posted it because he absolutely sees the humour in there. i dare say that it is YOUR blindness to anything left that you think we fail to see the humour in something as riotous at that daily show piece.

it's definitely ironic that you're pointing out blindness, when its pretty clear here the blindness is totally on you.
 
71Perm Dude
      ID: 577243010
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 09:47 		OMG! Baldwin thinks such an over the top video is something I take as real.

Jesus Baldwin--you're an idiot. Your cynicism has turned you into a twisted human being, unable even to smile anymore. Stay away from politics before it starts to poison your family life, if it hasn't already.
 
72bibA
      Leader
      ID: 261028117
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 12:58 		Prediction - Baldwin "was just kidding because he knew PD was just kidding about Daily, because he knew Daily was just kidding about Obama"
 
73Baldwin
      ID: 2583316
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 14:18 		PD, you've been giving full credit to his messianic pretentions.
 
74Perm Dude
      ID: 577243010
      Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 14:40 		You, who purport to know that Coulter is satire didn't get the clear Daily Show satire because you mistook my support for Obama as messianic credit?

What a sad and pathetic response.
 
75walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 08:59 		Guardian (UK): World's Verdict if Obama is not Elected
 
76Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 19:33 		I know the protests at the DNC were not given nearly the amount of coverage as the RNC, but the police and prosecutors have really stunk up the courthouse so far:
City Fails to Convict DNC Protesters; Three-day jury trial ends in acquittal; hung jury.

Denver Judge rules that no reasonable person could convict defendant, dismisses case.


DENVER – On Wednesday, October 22, the Denver City Attorney's office failed in its attempt to prosecute the first of a series of jury trials of individuals arrested at demonstrations during the Democratic National Convention. After a three-day trial, a six-person jury came back with a deadlocked verdict. Judge Karen Bowers subsequently dismissed all charges against one of the defendants, Eli Hardy, finding the evidence so scant that "no reasonable person could convict Mr. Hardy." The jury also found there was not enough evidence to convict the other defendant, Tiffany Bray, who may face a re-trial in the next 45 days.

In addition to the cases of Bray and Hardy, the City has dismissed seven of the first nine DNC-related cases which were set for trial this week.

"The City is on an impressive losing streak," said Brian Vicente, Denver lawyer and director of the People's Law Project. "But the real loser is the Denver taxpayer who foots the bill for these needless prosecutions."

The Denver City Attorney's office is slated to prosecute another fifty DNC-related individuals over the months of October, November, and December. The cost of these trials is expected to be high. The trials of Bray and Hardy required a full three-day commitment from six jurors, a judge and clerk, three prosecutors, a handful of defense lawyers, and also the testimony of numerous police officers.

"One has to wonder if the City's limited resources should be spent on more important prosecutions," said Vicente. "Is Its hard to believe that prosecuting sixty citizens for "Street Obstruction" during the Democratic National Convention warrants this use of resources."

These trials stem largely from the mass arrest of more than 100 individuals at a demonstration on August 25, 2008, at the intersection of 15th St. and Court Place in Denver. Individuals were uniformly charged with municipal offenses, including Obstruction of a Street and Failure to Obey a Lawful Order. Prosecutors subsequently dropped the Failure to Obey a Lawful Order charges against a number of defendants, leaving the Obstruction charge which carries a penalty of up to one year in jail and a $1000 fine.

The People's Law Project recruited and trained more than 30 attorneys to provide pro-bono representation for those arrested at free-speech events during the Convention. The People's Law Project is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting First Amendment rights. It is a project of the National Lawyers Guild. For more information on the People's Law Project please visit http://www.DNC-PLP.org
 
77Razor
      ID: 11992219
      Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 21:17 		Arresting peaceful protesters is so anti-American. The national media should have ran with these stories until the DA had no choice but to drop these charges.