|
| Posted by: Boldwin
- [2962619] Mon, Oct 27, 2008, 23:40
1) Creeping socialism isn't going to be creeping along, it's going to be galloping with the MSM painting Obama as FDR II and a Dem supermajority passing New Deal pt2.
2) Don't go making plans like future commute distances and vehicle purchases based on the recent return of price sanity to gasoline.The $700 billion U.S. bailout—plus the billions of dollars in capital infusions that have been put in place by governments and central banks all over the world—will be highly inflationary, analysts say. Historically, this type of move has been very bad for the U.S. dollar and highly bullish for oil prices. ... Currently, Fitz-Gerald has a multi-year target price of $225 a barrel for oil prices. ... Some hedge funds were forced to liquidate their positions to cover losses ... Crude oil fell below $70 a barrel, reaching its lowest level since June 2007, and gasoline prices tumbled after a U.S. Department of Energy report showed that stockpiles advanced twice as much as forecast [ya think doubling prices didn't free up capped wells and kill OPEC solidarity? - B] ... Oil prices also dropped on doubts that the bank rescue plan will bolster global economic growth—and with it, fuel use. ... (OPEC) moved the meeting it had planned for November up to Oct. 24 after the oil-price decline. ... With the global bailout in place, monetary policy is about as loose as it’s ever been. ... For most commodities, price rises have an effect on supply and demand; a higher price increases supply and reduces demand, as in "price elasticity." With oil, for example, a 10 percent rise in price reduces demand by about 1 percent to 1.5 percent, meaning that oil has a price elasticity of 0.1 to 0.15. But oil is priced in dollars, and when the dollar drops, OPEC tends to boost oil prices to keep its revenue steady. The flood of dollars the global bailout plans are going to send washing through the financial system won’t be good for the greenback, meaning the dollar-based price of oil can only go higher. That will more than offset any decline in demand in the near term; in the long run, growing economies in such markets as China, India and other emergent markets will create millions of new consumers who will demand luxuries ranging from jewelry to automobiles. The upshot: Global demand for oil and gold will escalate—as will their prices. |
| | | 1 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 01:28
|
I understand his Cassandra Complex all too well. We can only hope he will stop being dead on accurate, because his predictions aren't pretty.
|
|
| | | 2 | Tree
ID: 219262723 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 01:32
|
this is going to be another fun thread...
|
|
| | | 3 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 01:38
|
But it was a meeting of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in September 2006 that earned him his nickname Dr Doom.
Roubini told an audience of fellow economists that a generational crisis was coming. A once-in-a-lifetime housing bust would lay waste to the US economy as oil prices soared, consumers stopped shopping and the country went into a deep recession.
The collapse of the mortgage market would trigger a global meltdown, as trillions of dollars of mortgage-backed securities unravelled. The shockwaves would destroy banks and other big financial institutions such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, America’s largest home loan lenders.
“I think perhaps we will need a stiff drink after that,” the moderator said. Members of the audience laughed.
Economics is not called the dismal science for nothing. ------------------------------
Fast forward to this year...
Then, in February 2008, Roubini posted an entry on his blog headlined: “The rising risk of a systemic financial meltdown: the twelve steps to financial disaster”.
It detailed how the housing market collapse would lead to huge losses for the financial system, particularly in the vehicles used to securitise loans. It warned that “ a national bank” might go bust, and that, as trouble deepened, investment banks and hedge funds might collapse.
Even Roubini was taken aback at how quickly this scenario unfolded. The following month the US investment bank Bear Stearns went under. Since then, the pace and scale of the disaster has accelerated and, as Roubini predicted, the banking sector has been destroyed, Freddie and Fannie have collapsed, stock markets have gone mad and the economy has entered a frightening recession.
Roubini says he was able to predict the catastrophe so accurately because of his “holistic” approach to the crisis and his ability to work outside traditional economic disciplines. A long-time student of financial crises, he looked at the history and politics of past crises as well as the economic models.
“These crises don’t come out of nowhere,” he said. “Usually they arrive because of a systematic increase in a variety of asset and credit bubbles, macro-economic policies and other vulnerabilities. If you combine them, you may not get the timing right but you get an indication that you are closer to a tipping point.”
Others who claimed the economy would escape a recession had been swept up in “a critical euphoria and mania, an irrational exuberance”, he said. And many financial pundits, he believes, were just talking up their own vested interests. “I might be right or wrong, but I have never traded, bought or sold a single security in my life. I am trying to be as objective as I can.”
What does his objectivity tell him now? No end is yet in sight to the crisis.
“Every time there has been a severe crisis in the last six months, people have said this is the catastrophic event that signals the bottom. They said it after Bear Stearns, after Fannie and Freddie, after AIG [the giant US insurer that had to be rescued], and after [the $700 billion bailout plan]. Each time they have called the bottom, and the bottom has not been reached.”
Across the world, governments have taken more and more aggressive actions to stop the panic. However, Roubini believes investors appear to have lost confidence in governments’ ability to sort out the mess.
The announcement of the US government’s $700 billion bailout, Gordon Brown’s grand bank rescue plan and the coordinated response of governments around the world has done little to calm the situation. “It’s been a slaughter, day after day after day,” said Roubini. “Markets are dysfunctional; they are totally unhinged.” Economic fundamentals no longer apply, he believes.
“Even using the nuclear option of guaranteeing everything, providing unlimited liquidity, nationalising the banks, making clear that nobody of importance is going to be allowed to fail, even that has not helped. We are reaching a breaking point, frankly.”
He believes governments will have to come up with an even bigger international rescue, and that the US is facing “multi-year economic stagnation”.
Given such cataclysmic talk, some experts fear his new-found influence may be a bad thing in such troubled times. One senior Wall Street figure said: “He is clearly very bright and thoughtful when he is not shooting from the hip.”
He said he found some of Roubini’s comments “slapdash and silly”. “Sometimes the rigour of his analysis seems to be missing,” he said.
Banerji still has problems with Roubini’s prescient IMF speech. “He has been very accurate in terms of what would happen,” he said. But Roubini was predicting an “imminent” recession by the start of 2007 and he was wrong. “He hurt his credibility by being so pessimistic long before it was appropriate.”
Banerji said on average the US economy had grown for five years before hitting a bad patch. “Roubini started predicting a recession four years ago and saying it was imminent. He kept changing his justification: first the trade deficit, the current account deficit, then the oil price spike, then the housing downturn and so on. But the recession actually did not arrive,” he said.
“If you are an investor or a businessman and you took him seriously four years ago, what on earth would happen to you? You would be in a foetal position for years. This is why the timing is critical. It’s not enough to know what will happen in some point in the distant future.”
Roubini says the argument about content and timing is irrelevant. “People who have been totally blinded and wrong accusing me of getting the timing wrong, it’s just a joke,” he said. “It’s a bit pathetic, frankly. I was not making generic statements. I have made very specific predictions and I have been right all along.” Maybe so, but he does not sound too happy about it, frankly.
His blog
|
|
| | | 4 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 01:59
|
If his all too believable prediction of the worst recession in 40 years has you down, he at least offers this...Still, Roubini said he doesn't expect the economic consequences of the current crisis to be as severe as the Great Depression. ``During the Great Depression, output in the U.S. fell by more than 20 percent, I don't believe that's going to be the case,'' he said. Let's hope that wasn't just Dr Doom trying to put a brave face on it.
|
|
| | | 5 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 5047110 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 14:56
|
There are some problems with these points...
The flood of dollars the global bailout plans are going to send washing through the financial system won’t be good for the greenback, meaning the dollar-based price of oil can only go higher.
In the long run sure but the dollar has been down so much and now Europe is heading to recession as hard as us. The recession was priced into the dollar not the Euro thus the dollar has been gaining lately. Europe will continue rate cuts after the USA has no more cuts to give, that should also prop the dollar up in the short term.
That will more than offset any decline in (oil) demand in the near term;
I doubt it. Demand combined with the over shoot in the value in oil up to 147 a barrel means that in the short term the downside in oil price is here to stay. (unless there's a major mid east military event) Long term? of course everything goes up.
in the long run, growing economies in such markets as China, India and other emergent markets will create millions of new consumers who will demand luxuries ranging from jewelry to automobiles.
Great should be a shallow recession then Baldwin. They might "demand" these things but they still have to pay for them and at 147 the math doesn't work. One dirty little secret we may learn is the planet can not sustain a vibrant, rich, India and China.
China is working on slave labor right?
The upshot: Global demand for oil and gold will escalate—as will their prices.
Of course but we also discovered there's a limit to what can be paid. Economies cannot sustain exorbatent priced oil and supply and demand eventually corrects.
The question is will the USA/world follow through with conservation, fuel efficient cars, nuclear power and alternative fuels...that's all it will take to keep the prices down...will we do it or dig our own economic graves?
|
|
| | | 6 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 15:09
|
One dirty little secret we may learn is the planet can not sustain a vibrant, rich, India and China.
And the even dirtier little secret is that includes us. so in the end we all lose. The idea of everlasting growing economies is a myth. But in the short term the economies of china and india well grow much faster than ours because a) they have more room to grow as assets move from west to the east 2) there population growths are much greater than the western countries created an ever increasing pool of labor hours to trade for assets.
|
|
| | | 7 | nerveclinic Leader
ID: 5047110 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 15:28
|
The idea of everlasting growing economies is a myth. But in the short term the economies of china and india well grow much faster than ours because a) they have more room to grow as assets move from west to the east 2) there population growths are much greater than the western countries created an ever increasing pool of labor hours to trade for assets.
I would argue in the "short term" all three USA, China and India are going through a correction.
My main point is, yes India and China will continue to grow, and yes faster then the USA... but the USA, China and India cannot sustain steady long term growth with oil at 147 a barrel in 2008 dollars.
The market corrected.
|
|
| | | 8 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 15:59
|
I would argue in the "short term" all three USA, China and India are going through a correction.
I was referring to long term trends.
My main point is, yes India and China will continue to grow, and yes faster then the USA... but the USA, China and India cannot sustain steady long term growth with oil at 147 a barrel in 2008 dollars. i was actually referring to natural resources in general can not support long term growth, not just oil, but even the essentials like food and water. but oil in the more short term, though the others will follow.
|
|
| | | 9 | Boldwin
ID: 2962619 Tue, Oct 28, 2008, 17:55
|
The one little magic trick satan has left up his sleeve before the Titanic sinks:
When you have artificially kept half the world earning less than $2000 yearly [off the top of my head], many earning less than $1000 [for sure], it shouldn't be too hard to convince a whole lotta people things are getting better, just by equalizing the failure that is human government aka globalism.
|
|
| | | 10 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319 Fri, Dec 12, 2008, 20:45
|
Soon, parts of California will resemble your average 3rd world country.
Money fact - California's population has ballooned from 10 million to more than 36 million since water began flowing through the state's network of canals in middle of last century
Money quote - "If you like foreign oil, you're going to love foreign food"
|
|
| | | 11 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 02:36
|
Am I the only one struck by the perception that time has been very kind to Ross Perot? No denying the giant sucking sound we've heard ever since in his absence.
|
|
| | | 13 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 11:50
|
Money quote - "If you like foreign oil, you're going to love foreign food" the guy is growing almonds...talk about making your crop sound more important than it is. I am sorry but i do not remember ever learning that almonds were key to our survival.
|
|
| | | 14 | Baldwin
ID: 1211491020 Mon, Dec 15, 2008, 18:15
|
Not unless you believe in laetrile.
|
|
|
|